Podcast appearances and mentions of mike blumenthal

Send us a textIn this thought-provoking episode of the Near Memo podcast, SEO veteran Cindy Krum joins Greg Sterling and Mike Blumenthal to unpack how Google's evolving use of AI, including MUM (Multitask Unified Model), is reshaping the search landscape. Krum explains how Google is moving from keyword- and entity-based indexing to modeling “journeys” that reflect a user's intent — aligning with Google's long-abandoned concept of “micro-moments” like “I want to know,” “I want to go,” “I want to do,” and “I want to buy.” These journeys are increasingly being monetized across different verticals such as YouTube, Merchant Center, and local results, as Google balances expensive AI integration with ad revenue optimization.The trio also explores the convergence of Google Discover, AI Overviews, and personalized browsing experiences — warning that this personalization could result in unprecedented data tracking and loss of consumer privacy. Krum emphasizes that marketers and SEOs must adapt quickly: diversify traffic sources, optimize across social and non-Google platforms, and consider how Google's motivations (data consolidation and monetization) are shaping an experience that prioritizes corporate interests over user needs. The message is clear — traditional SEO tactics won't survive the AI-driven tide unless they evolve dramatically.TakeawaysCindy Krum discusses the MUM model and its impact on SEO.Google's monetization strategies are evolving with AI integration.Personalization in search is becoming increasingly important.Marketers need to optimize for user intent and MUM journeys.Informational queries represent a significant portion of search traffic.Diversifying traffic sources is crucial for digital marketers.Branding and social media presence are essential for visibility.The search landscape is changing rapidly due to AI advancements.Marketers should be proactive in adapting to these changes.Understanding user journeys will be key to future SEO strategies.Subscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Mike Blumenthal, Executive Director of Cannabiz Credit Association Listen to a discussion at the Necann Boston 2025 event about the challenges of credit and payment reliability within the cannabis industry. Guests introduce the Cannabiz Credit Association (CCA), a centralized system that aggregates payment histories and credit data of cannabis businesses nationwide. The CCA helps companies assess who pays their bills on time, improve accountability, and reduce bad debt through credit risk scoring and industry-wide transparency. The conversation also touches on how the CCA system benefits leasing companies, cultivators, and brands by providing trustworthy credit information and encouraging timely payments.

Send us a textGreg Sterling, Mike Blumenthal, and Sammy Paget of BrightLocal discuss the evolving landscape of consumer reviews, focusing on how consumer behavior has changed over the years, the importance of businesses responding to reviews, and the impact of AI on review management. They explore the future of reviews, the decline in trust, and Google's policies regarding review authenticity, emphasizing the need for businesses to prioritize customer service and engagement.00:00 Consumer Expectations and Business Responses02:59 The Importance of Customer Engagement06:25 Common Mistakes Businesses Make with Reviews08:24 The Future of Reviews and AI Integration13:50 Trust and Alternative Sources of Information17:42 The Role of AI in Review Management22:43 Google's Trust Report and Review Management27:27 The Impact of Reviews on Education Institutions30:49 Final Thoughts on Reviews and Business PracticesTakeaways•Consumers expect businesses to respond to all types of reviews.•89% of consumers are likely to use businesses that respond to reviews.•Engagement through review responses can boost a business's reputation.•AI is changing how reviews are summarized and presented to consumers.•Trust in online reviews has declined, leading to alternative sources of information.•Businesses should focus on delivering excellent service to encourage positive reviews.•Google's aggressive removal of reviews aims to restore trust in the platform.•The badge of shame for manipulated reviews may not significantly impact consumer behavior.•Review responses should be thoughtful and engaging to signal business engagement.•Businesses need to view reviews as valuable feedback for improvement.Subscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

SEO veterans Mike Blumenthal, Greg Sterling, and David Mim continue exploring the pressing questions surrounding Google's role as a utility and its evolving platforms. Focusing on the European search experience, the discussion also revolves around AI's role in modifying search results, and local service ads' impact on user behavior. The talk also touches on how changes in Google's algorithm and business model are propelling a significant decline in traditional website traffic. The guests from Near Media provide expert insights on how businesses can adapt by enhancing the visibility of their services via structured content that appeals directly to these AI-driven formats.  Greg, Mike, and David share their perspectives on AI's potential to redefine consumer interactions with search platforms and marketing methods, while also highlighting the importance of direct customer relationships and authentic experiences.  Key Segments: [00:06:51] EU Tech Regulation and Google's Search Impact [00:10:30] Local SEO and Zero-Click Evolution [00:13:07] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:14:00] Impact of Google Local Service Ads [00:17:00] Hotel Ads: Monetization Strategy Insights [00:20:40] Google Tests Enhanced AI Search Feature [00:25:31] Enhancing Local Conversion Strategies [00:29:07] Understanding User Intent in AI [00:32:22] AI's Concierge Era: Worth the Shift? [00:35:57] Tailoring Business Model to Audience Thanks to Our Sponsors! Site Strategics: https://edgeofthewebradio.com/site Follow Our Guests: Mike Blumenthal:  X: @mblumenthal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mblumenthal/ BlueSky: @mikeblumenthal.bsky.social Greg Sterling LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregsterling/  David Mihm  LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/davidmihm  Resources https://www.nearmedia.co/dma/google-preliminary-non-compliance-6-5/  https://www.nearmedia.co/dma/google-dma-compliance-2025-03/  https://www.nearmedia.co/dma/eu-home-services-search-behavior/  https://www.nearmedia.co/googles-2nd-local-pack-in-the-eu/ https://www.nearmedia.co/eu-home-services-search-behavior/

Send us a text01:59 Evolution of Consumer Review Behavior05:03 Trust in Reviews: A Declining Trend08:14 The Impact of Fake Reviews and AI14:18 Alternative Review Platforms and Their Trustworthiness19:30 Key Findings from the 15-Year Review Study22:07 Best Practices for Review Solicitation29:22 Consumer Expectations and Business ResponsesIn this episode, Greg Sterling, Mike Blumenthal, and guest Sammy Paget from BrightLocal dive deep into 15 years of consumer review research trends. Sammy shares insights from BrightLocal's long-running consumer review survey, highlighting how online reviews have evolved from novelty to necessity in the purchase journey. But as the role of reviews has grown, so has consumer skepticism.The trio discusses the sharp drop in review trust, the increasing sophistication of fake reviews—especially those powered by AI—and the paradox that while people trust reviews less, they still rely on them heavily. They also explore the growing use of alternative platforms like local news, YouTube, TikTok, and Reddit as sources of business recommendations. Plus, they examine generational behavior and cultural differences in review reading habits.Whether you're a local business owner or just fascinated by how we evaluate things online, this segment is packed with context and conversation on how trust and behavior around reviews is shifting—and what that means moving forward.Subscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

The EDGE untangles the EU's Digital Markets Act (DMA) with SEO veterans Mike Blumenthal, Greg Sterling, and David Mihm. This episode reveals how Google's strategic maneuvers in Europe are reshaping the SERP landscape and challenging the status quo in local search. With a strong research effort of the last two years, our guests dissect Google's attempts to comply with the DMA, such as the introduction of the Places Sites Tab, Carousel and the decoupling of the Local Pack from Google Maps. Despite these efforts, user behavior tells a different story—one where Google's new features are largely ignored. It seems the Local Pack is still the go-to destination for users, regardless of these new additions. Meanwhile, the episode exposes an intriguing juxtaposition in the hotels vertical, where booking.com emerges as a formidable player through ad dominance, highlighting a complex dance between market giants. This scenario sparks a discussion on whether Google's self-preferencing tendencies are truly being curtailed or simply rebranded. Join us as we explore how Google's “play nice” strategies may just be a façade amidst ongoing DOJ antitrust pressure. Could this pave a path for diversified regional strategies and fresh opportunities in the digital marketing sphere? Let us know your thoughts of the show at https://ratethispodcast.com/EDGE  Key Segments: [00:02:01] SEO News from the EDGE Highlig [00:04:40] Introducing NearMedia: Mike Bluementhal, Greg Sterling, and David Mihm [00:08:03]  What is the Digital Marketing Act? [00:08:59] Article 65 of the DMA Applies to the Regulation of Search [00:11:37] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:13:34]  What has Google Done to Comply with the DMA? [00:16:21]  Google Rewriting History with Multiple Local Packs [00:18:13]  Was This Done to Address American Antitrust Concerns? [00:20:06]  Will the Election Change the Antitrust Enforcement? [00:24:23]  EDGE of The Web Sponsor: InLinks [00:26:31]  The DMA is not Prescriptive, But Setting Operational Parameters [00:28:10]  Major Research Since 2023 on User Behavior [00:30:23]   Google has a Self-Interest to Show You the Last Click [00:32:42]  EDGE of The Web Sponsor: Wix Studio [00:35:14]  What was the Most Surprising Findings? Guess....  [00:38:15]  In Summary: A Bad Faith Argument on Google's Part   Thanks to Our Sponsors! Site Strategics: https://edgeofthewebradio.com/site InLinks: https://edgeofthewebradio.com/inlinks  Wix: https://edgeofthewebradio.com/wixstudio  Follow Our Guests: Mike Bluementhal:  X: @mblumenthal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mblumenthal/ BlueSky: @mikeblumenthal.bsky.social Greg Sterling: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregsterling/  David Mihm:  LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/davidmihm  Resources https://www.nearmedia.co/dma/google-preliminary-non-compliance-6-5/  https://www.nearmedia.co/dma/google-dma-compliance-2025-03/  https://www.nearmedia.co/dma/eu-home-services-search-behavior/  https://www.nearmedia.co/googles-2nd-local-pack-in-the-eu/ https://www.nearmedia.co/eu-home-services-search-behavior/

Send us a textGreg Sterling and Mike Blumenthal discuss the current state of Google suspensions, the impact of AI overviews on local search traffic, and the evolving landscape of digital marketing strategies. They emphasize the importance of businesses becoming less reliant on Google and exploring alternative marketing channels while navigating the challenges posed by AI and changing search dynamics.Takeaways•Google's traffic dynamics are shifting, impacting everyone.•Suspension isues have been fixed but appeals times for reinstatement have increased significantly.•AI overviews are reducing visibility for organic search results.•Businesses should be cautious when making changes to their listings.•The importance of managing Google Business Profiles is highlighted.•Only a small percentage of businesses actively manage their reviews.•Building a brand independent of Google is crucial for success.•Social media is a primary channel for customer engagement amongst SMBS.•AI traffic is not a substitute for traditional search traffic.•Google's strategy is to retain users by integrating AI into search.01:36 Update: Google Suspensions/Reverification Fix and Backlog 05:36 The Rise of AI Overviews in Local Search11:27 Navigating the Future of Google and AI16:56 Marketing Strategies in a Changing LandscapeSubscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Chasing Justice with Lt. Joe Pangaro – In a world where violence can erupt anywhere, knowing how to protect yourself is essential. Lt. Joe speaks with Mike Blumenthal from Millennium Martial Arts about recognizing danger, making smart decisions, and taking action when necessary. From road rage to terrorism, understanding self-defense and situational awareness can help you stay safe in unpredictable situations.

Chasing Justice with Lt. Joe Pangaro – In a world where violence can erupt anywhere, knowing how to protect yourself is essential. Lt. Joe speaks with Mike Blumenthal from Millennium Martial Arts about recognizing danger, making smart decisions, and taking action when necessary. From road rage to terrorism, understanding self-defense and situational awareness can help you stay safe in unpredictable situations.

Send us a textIn this episode, Mike Blumenthal and Greg Sterling continue their discussion with Curtis Boyd, CEO of the Transparency Company, focusing on the pervasive issue of review fraud. They explore the current landscape of consumer trust in online reviews, the implications of new FTC regulations, and the challenges businesses face in maintaining review integrity. Curtis shares his optimistic outlook on potential solutions and emphasizes the importance of transparency in the review process. The conversation also delves into practical strategies for businesses and marketers to combat fake reviews and improve their online reputation.00:00 Introduction to Review Fraud and Transparency Company00:23 Future of Review Integrity08:40 Strategies for Businesses and Marketers17:55 Optimism Amidst ChallengesSubscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Send us a textIn this episode, Greg Sterling and Mike Blumenthal discuss the state of review fraud with Curtis Boyd, CEO of the Transparency Company. They explore the complexities of fake reviews, including the different types and metrics used to identify them. The conversation delves into the role of AI in generating fake reviews and the economic impact of review fraud on consumers and businesses. Curtis shares insights from a recent report estimating the financial damage caused by fake reviews, highlighting the challenges faced by ethical businesses in a marketplace rife with deception.00:10 Introduction to Review Fraud and Transparency Company01:48 Understanding Review Fraud: Types and Metrics04:42 The Landscape of Fake Reviews: Business Practices and Impacts09:11 The Role of AI in Review Fraud18:27 Economic Impact of Review Fraud: Insights from the Report25:32 The Challenge of Review Fraud32:08 Learn about Part 2 of the interviewSubscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Are offline marketing efforts a lost art in the digital age?  What's the SEO connection of it all? Wix's Mordy Oberstein and Crystal Carter talk with Mike Blumenthal and Greg Sterling from Near Media to tackle the intricate balance between online and offline marketing strategies. Find out where common offline marketing mistakes play a critical role in your digital presence and SEO strategy.  Dive into how word-of-mouth marketing translates into online growth for businesses We're going “unplugged” in this episode of the SERP's Up SEO Podcast. Key Segments [00:02:05] What's On This Episode of SERP's Up?  [00:02:43] Focus Topic of the Week [00:12:16] Focus Topic Guest: Greg Sterling & Mike Blumenthal  [00:40:59] Snappy News [00:48:21] Follow of the Week Hosts, Guests, & Featured People: Mordy Oberstein Crystal CarterGreg Sterling Mike Blumenthal Terry Rice Resources: Wix SEO Learning Hub Searchlight SEO Newsletter SEO Resource Center Near Media  The Near Memo Podcast Brand24 News: SearchGPT Launches As ChatGPT's Real-Time Search Feature Google AI Answers In Google Maps: Things To Do, Review Summaries & About This Place

With a deluge of AI-spun content hitting the web today, it's never been more important to ensure you're working with real experts on your brand publication.Host Claire Carlile is joined by George Nguyen from Wix to discuss how to develop content hubs for brands that want to build their authority and expertise—no matter the vertical.What you will learn in this episode:Examples of brands with fantastic content hubs and brand publicationsHow to overcome the challenges you'll face when starting a content hubHow to approach working with expert contributorsHow to make your brand publication sustainable in the long termThe value of diversity in brand publications...and much more!About Claire Carlile (Host)Claire Carlile is a Chartered Marketer (MCIM) and is BrightLocal's Local Search Expert. Her work at Claire Carlile Marketing, where she helps businesses of all sizes make the most of the local search opportunity, allows her to provide real-world skills and expertise to what BrightLocal does.Where to find ClaireWebsiteXLinkedInAbout George Nguyen (Guest)George Nguyen is the Director of SEO Editorial at Wix. He creates content to help users and marketers better understand how search works and how to use Wix SEO tools. He was formerly a search news journalist and is known to speak at the occasional industry event.Where to find GeorgeWebsiteXLinkedInRoom 404Find out what George puts in Room 404... rest assured, it's a search phrase many will be happy to see/hear the back of!Want more from Adventures in Local Marketing? We highly recommend checking out these episodes:Steve Wiideman on Navigating Big Brand Local SEOEmbracing AI with Marie HaynesCrystal Carter on Powerful Applications of Schema MarkupResources from this episode:Wix's SEO Learning HubWix's Podcast: SERP's UpWix Business Website TemplatesThe Wix Playground in New York CityExpert Shoutout: Darren ShawExpert Shoutout: Krystal TaingExpert Shoutout: Celeste GonzalezExpert Shoutout: Miriam EllisExpert Shoutout: Greg Sterling, Mike Blumenthal, and David Mihm at Near MediaAbout Adventures in Local MarketingAdventures in Local Marketing is *the* podcast for local marketers, hosted by industry expert and popular speaker, Claire Carlile.Claire chats to a smorgasbord of marketers from various different backgrounds, who each bring their unique insight into facets of the local marketing landscape.

Send us a Text Message.In this extended episode of the Near Memo, Greg Sterling , Joy Hawkins, Darren Shaw & Mike Blumenthal explore the role of generative AI and how it has evolved one year after CHat GPT was released.  We cover:Experiences and opinions on the use of AI tools like ChatGPT in SEO and content creation.The effectiveness of AI in different aspects of agency work, including creative tasks and data analysis.The influence of AI on the quality of content and the evolving nature of SEO strategies.Perspectives on the future impact of AI on the SEO industry and the role of agencies.How Local SEO agencies use AI to improve client content:Content Creation Challenges with AI: Contrary to initial expectations, AI has not replaced content writers. While it is used for drafting and repurposing content, AI-generated articles often require extensive human editing, especially for factual accuracy and coherence.Content Refinement and Repurposing: AI excels in transforming existing content into different formats, like converting a list into a blog post or a blog into a script. This minimizes the editing work required.Efficiency in Post Creation: AI has been particularly effective in generating social media or Google posts, reducing the time and mental effort involved in content creation. This includes automating tasks like emoji placement in posts. How Local SEO agencies explain AI to their clients:AI in Client Communication: Both Sterling Sky and Whitesoark  are transparent with clients about their AI usage, addressing concerns about potential negative impacts on SEO performance. AI is presented as a tool for idea generation and preliminary drafting, not as a primary content creator.Client Engagement with AI: Clients are generally receptive and interested in AI's role in content creation. The emphasis is on AI as an assistant that complements human skills, ensuring quality and originality in content.Cost Implications: There have been no significant shifts in pricing structures due to AI efficiencies. The focus is on using AI to maintain or reduce costs rather than altering client fees. Local SEO Agencies & their AI future:AI as a reporting super power: extracting meaningful insights from large data sets for clients.Long-Term Impact on Staffing and Skills: Agencies do not foresee AI replacing human staff. Instead, AI is viewed as a tool that enhances staff capabilities. Concerns about AI causing dependency or de-skilling are noted, but the overall sentiment is optimistic.Future of AI in Local SEO: AI is expected to lead to more efficient workflows and better quality content. Agencies anticipate a growing divide between those heavily reliant on AI and those favoring a balanced, human-centric approach. AI's role in data analysis and automating repetitive tasks is highlighted, enhancing both client service and internal processes.ChatGPT's Review InsightsExperiences and opinions on the use of AI tools like ChatGPT in SEO and content creation.The effectiveness of AI in different aspects of agency work, including creative tasks and data analysis.The influence of AI on the quality of content and the evolving nature of SEO strategies.Perspectives on the future impact of AISubscribe to our 3x per week newsletter at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Join us in this eye-opening discussion with Zachary Dotson, an experienced marketer in the home services industry, as he sheds light on a rampant scam in Google Local Service Ads. Learn how fake companies are exploiting the system with stolen licenses and profiles, bait-and-switch pricing tactics, and the impact on legitimate businesses and consumers. Discover the challenges faced in tackling these scams and the response from authorities and Google. This conversation with Mike Blumenthal from Near Media is a must-watch for anyone in the service industry or those who use online ads for home services.The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.Subscribe to our 3x per week newsletter at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

In this extended episode of the Near Memo, Greg Sterling , Joy Hawkins, Darren Shaw & Mike Blumenthal explore the role of generative AI and how it has evolved one year after CHat GPT was released.  We cover:Experiences and opinions on the use of AI tools like ChatGPT in SEO and content creation.The effectiveness of AI in different aspects of agency work, including creative tasks and data analysis.The influence of AI on the quality of content and the evolving nature of SEO strategies.Perspectives on the future impact of AI on the SEO industry and the role of agencies.How Local SEO agencies use AI to improve client content:Content Creation Challenges with AI: Contrary to initial expectations, AI has not replaced content writers. While it is used for drafting and repurposing content, AI-generated articles often require extensive human editing, especially for factual accuracy and coherence.Content Refinement and Repurposing: AI excels in transforming existing content into different formats, like converting a list into a blog post or a blog into a script. This minimizes the editing work required.Efficiency in Post Creation: AI has been particularly effective in generating social media or Google posts, reducing the time and mental effort involved in content creation. This includes automating tasks like emoji placement in posts. How Local SEO agencies explain AI to their clients:AI in Client Communication: Both Sterling Sky and Whitesoark  are transparent with clients about their AI usage, addressing concerns about potential negative impacts on SEO performance. AI is presented as a tool for idea generation and preliminary drafting, not as a primary content creator.Client Engagement with AI: Clients are generally receptive and interested in AI's role in content creation. The emphasis is on AI as an assistant that complements human skills, ensuring quality and originality in content.Cost Implications: There have been no significant shifts in pricing structures due to AI efficiencies. The focus is on using AI to maintain or reduce costs rather than altering client fees. Local SEO Agencies & their AI future:AI as a reporting super power: extracting meaningful insights from large data sets for clients.Long-Term Impact on Staffing and Skills: Agencies do not foresee AI replacing human staff. Instead, AI is viewed as a tool that enhances staff capabilities. Concerns about AI causing dependency or de-skilling are noted, but the overall sentiment is optimistic.Future of AI in Local SEO: AI is expected to lead to more efficient workflows and better quality content. Agencies anticipate a growing divide between those heavily reliant on AI and those favoring a balanced, human-centric approach. AI's role in data analysis and automating repetitive tasks is highlighted, enhancing both client service and internal processes.ChatGPT's Review InsightsExperiences and opinions on the use of AI tools like ChatGPT in SEO and content creation.The effectiveness of AI in different aspects of agency work, including creative tasks and data analysis.The influence of AI on the quality of content and the evolving nature of SEO strategies.Perspectives on the future impact of AI on the SEO industry and the role of agencies.The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and CSubscribe to our 3x per week newsletter at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Have you ever wondered how users interact with local search results? Or how to tackle the review chaos—both fake and missing? You’re in luck. Today, we’re getting the lowdown from Mike Blumenthal, who knows Google’s local search like the back of his hand. Let’s dive in! The Scoop on Local Search Behaviors First, some eye-opening…

In this episode, Near Media's Mike Blumenthal highlights the Google trends we should all be paying close attention to, discusses the evolution and importance of images in Google Business Profile, and introduces upcoming Near Media consumer research that could change how we look at searcher behavior.Listen to learn:What the future of Google Business Profile might look likeWhere to go to improve your Google and Google Business Profile knowledgeThe part ads and monetization play in the future of Google Business ProfilePLUS a surprising fact about what consumers do and don't care about in reviewsRESOURCESFollow Mike on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mblumenthalMike's profile on the Google Business Profile Community Help Forum: https://support.google.com/profile/1779682?sjid=8164595187474410917-EUMike has an open email policy: mike@blumenthals.comMike's older local search blog, which he keeps alive as an archive: https://blumenthals.com/blog/The Near Memo - Near Media's Podcast: https://www.nearmedia.co/memo/Sterling Sky blog: https://www.sterlingsky.ca/blog/BrightLocal blog: https://www.brightlocal.com/insights/Whitespark blog: https://whitespark.ca/blog/Near Media: https://www.nearmedia.co/How to Upload and Manage Google Business Profile Photos: https://www.brightlocal.com/learn/google-business-profile/optimization/photos/Dispute a removed Google Business Profile photo or video with this form: https://support.google.com/business/gethelp

Reviews play a crucial role in a business’s online reputation, with many customers relying on them to make informed decisions. However, fake reviews have become a significant issue for businesses, with attackers leaving false reviews to damage a business’s reputation. In this podcast, we’ll be talking with Mike Blumenthal, an expert in GMB and online…

See the episode resources in the show notes on:https://emjpodcast.com/mike-blumenthal-talks-about-his-journey-with-local-seoCheck out more episodes of our SEO podcast.

Mike's LinksMove from Content Creation to Content Creativity In 2023 - Local University - https://localu.org/move-from-content-creation-to-content-creativity-in-2023/Survey Of 755 Link Builders Shows What Works In 2022 - https://www.authorityhacker.com/link-building-survey/Cyrus Sheard thread on Link Builder Survey on Twitter - https://twitter.com/cyrusshepard/status/1597669127728295936?s=12&t=D-tkb6_tCMfY7R-XfzNP0QFTC, States Sue Google and iHeartMedia for Deceptive Ads Promoting the Pixel 4 Smartphone - https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/ftc-states-sue-google-iheartmedia-deceptive-ads-promoting-pixel-4-smartphoneThe Influence of Reviews on Conversion - https://streetfightmag.com/2022/12/02/influence-of-reviews-on-conversion/Mike Blumenthal on new Google Profile Image bug on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1598392086671360009Smart Move, Google - https://garrit.xyz/posts/2022-11-24-smart-move-googleCarrie's LinksReview & Service Attributes: Do they affect how long a review stays at the top of a listing? - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/review-service-attributes-do-they-affect-how-long-a-review-stays-at-the-top-of-a-listing/LocalU Dallas April 26 - tickets on Sale - https://localu.org/dfw-23   Lorenzo Hotel - Downtown DallasGoogle Shows Download Your Google Business Profile Data When You Remove Your Listing - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-remove-local-profile-download-content-34500.htmlGoogle Business Profile Can Notate Previous Location  - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-business-profile-previous-location-34479.htmlTip of the week - What's the 1 thing we covered that you should read if your time is limited? ChatGPT - Understand the pros, cons and possible utilization of this very smart new tool in our arsenal. (https://chat.openai.com/chat)

Mike's LinksMove from Content Creation to Content Creativity In 2023 - Local University - https://localu.org/move-from-content-creation-to-content-creativity-in-2023/Survey Of 755 Link Builders Shows What Works In 2022 - https://www.authorityhacker.com/link-building-survey/Cyrus Sheard thread on Link Builder Survey on Twitter - https://twitter.com/cyrusshepard/status/1597669127728295936?s=12&t=D-tkb6_tCMfY7R-XfzNP0QFTC, States Sue Google and iHeartMedia for Deceptive Ads Promoting the Pixel 4 Smartphone - https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/11/ftc-states-sue-google-iheartmedia-deceptive-ads-promoting-pixel-4-smartphoneThe Influence of Reviews on Conversion - https://streetfightmag.com/2022/12/02/influence-of-reviews-on-conversion/Mike Blumenthal on new Google Profile Image bug on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1598392086671360009Smart Move, Google - https://garrit.xyz/posts/2022-11-24-smart-move-googleCarrie's LinksReview & Service Attributes: Do they affect how long a review stays at the top of a listing? - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/review-service-attributes-do-they-affect-how-long-a-review-stays-at-the-top-of-a-listing/LocalU Dallas April 26 - tickets on Sale - https://localu.org/dfw-23   Lorenzo Hotel - Downtown DallasGoogle Shows Download Your Google Business Profile Data When You Remove Your Listing - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-remove-local-profile-download-content-34500.htmlGoogle Business Profile Can Notate Previous Location  - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-business-profile-previous-location-34479.htmlTip of the week - What's the 1 thing we covered that you should read if your time is limited? ChatGPT - Understand the pros, cons and possible utilization of this very smart new tool in our arsenal. (https://chat.openai.com/chat)

Mike's LinksA Guide: Why Are My Reviews Missing on Google? - https://www.nearmedia.co/a-guide-why-are-my-google-reviews-missing/API endpoint update from Google - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/api-endpoint-update-from-google.59655/How to Get Zocdoc off Your Google Business Profile - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/how-to-get-zocdoc-off-your-google-business-profile/Google Maps Tests New Sidebar Navigation - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-maps-new-sidebar-navigation-34438.htmlDoes the Length of a Google Review Matter? - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/length-google-review-matter/Carrie's LinksBuy LocalU Event Videos - Local University - https://localu.org/buy-localu-event-videos/Brodie Clark on Twitter: "The past year was a big one for development of tools to help us do a better job at SEO. I tested out a ton of new SEO tools. Here's my top 10 (both free & paid) to use in 2023 - https://twitter.com/brodieseo/status/1597134729266204672Gary Llyes - 60% of the internet is duplicate -  Google Search Central Live in Singapore via Barry Schwartz - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-60-percent-of-the-internet-is-duplicate-34469.htmlFirst time seeing messaging after making edits to a GBP where Google tells you down to the minute how long until your edit is reviewed. - Colan Nielsen - https://twitter.com/ColanNielsen/status/1597244695096176641  Tip of the week - What's the 1 thing we covered that you should read if your time is limited? A Guide: Why Are My Reviews Missing on Google? - Mike Blumenthal - https://www.nearmedia.co/a-guide-why-are-my-google-reviews-missing/

Mike's LinksA Guide: Why Are My Reviews Missing on Google? - https://www.nearmedia.co/a-guide-why-are-my-google-reviews-missing/API endpoint update from Google - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/api-endpoint-update-from-google.59655/How to Get Zocdoc off Your Google Business Profile - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/how-to-get-zocdoc-off-your-google-business-profile/Google Maps Tests New Sidebar Navigation - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-maps-new-sidebar-navigation-34438.htmlDoes the Length of a Google Review Matter? - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/length-google-review-matter/Carrie's LinksBuy LocalU Event Videos - Local University - https://localu.org/buy-localu-event-videos/Brodie Clark on Twitter: "The past year was a big one for development of tools to help us do a better job at SEO. I tested out a ton of new SEO tools. Here's my top 10 (both free & paid) to use in 2023 - https://twitter.com/brodieseo/status/1597134729266204672Gary Llyes - 60% of the internet is duplicate -  Google Search Central Live in Singapore via Barry Schwartz - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-60-percent-of-the-internet-is-duplicate-34469.htmlFirst time seeing messaging after making edits to a GBP where Google tells you down to the minute how long until your edit is reviewed. - Colan Nielsen - https://twitter.com/ColanNielsen/status/1597244695096176641  Tip of the week - What's the 1 thing we covered that you should read if your time is limited? A Guide: Why Are My Reviews Missing on Google? - Mike Blumenthal - https://www.nearmedia.co/a-guide-why-are-my-google-reviews-missing/

Cindy Krum jumps into the news with Erin to tackle the slew of news this week! A little late, but still really important! Erin blames his kids… Covering articles from Barry Schwartz, Mike Blumenthal, Roger Montti and Fili Wiese, we also jumped into a Twitter thread that revealed something very interesting! Is there going to be a larger focus on structured data from Google to the degree of triggering manual penalties? As Cindy says. “The news this week kind of reinforces the idea that you are in Google's results wherever you are at their leisure and at their discretion. And what they give, they can easily take away.” Check your schema, all - it could be an issue. News from the EDGE: [00:03:16] Almost all industries have seen a large increase in Google Cost-Per-Leads [00:08:56] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: edgeofthewebradio.com/inlinks [00:09:41] Twitter removes 80% of its contractor employees without notice [00:14:20] GBP updates might eliminate your reviews. Have backups! [00:20:54] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:21:42] Marketers are jumping on the Mastodon bandwagon. Should you? [00:25:11] Social Thread: Spammy Schema will get a Manual Penalty? Barry Blast from Search Engine Roundtable: [00:32:41] Barry Blast 1: Google Ads Paying Advertisers $100 To Enroll In Automatically Applies Recommendations Thanks to our sponsors! Site Strategics https://edgeofthewebradio.com/site Inlinks https://edgeofthewebradio.com/inlinks Follow Us: Twitter: @ErinSparks Twitter: @Suzzicks Twitter: @TheMann00 Twitter: @EDGEWebRadio #StandwithUkraine edgeofthewebradio.com/ukraine

Mike's Links:POPABLE AND WALMART JOIN FORCES TO HELP SMALL BUSINESS RETAILERS GET BACK ON THEIR FEET AFTER THE PANDEMIC - https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/popable-and-walmart-join-forces-to-help-small-business-retailers-get-back-on-their-feet-after-the-pandemic-301662834.htmlGoogle is shutting down its dedicated Street View app next year - https://9to5google.com/2022/11/01/google-street-view-app-shutting-down/Semantic Photography: Low Hanging Fruit to Increase Google Local Conversions - https://www.nearmedia.co/semantic-photography-the-low-hanging-fruit-to-increase-google-local-conversions/Does the Number of Google Reviews Impact Ranking? [Case Study] - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/number-of-reviews-impact-ranking/Carrie's LinksReviews showing review location in Google – Darren Shaw – https://twitter.com/DarrenShaw_/status/1588964280665534464How to find reviews you haven't responded to yet in the NMX  – Joy & Colan - https://twitter.com/JoyanneHawkins/status/1588518928002998272Tanking Local Rankings? How to Turn Them Around If They've Gone Down – Phils preso from LocalU - https://twitter.com/philrozek/status/1588274549057286145LocalU on demand coming this week - https://localu.org/buy-localu-event-videos/Level up your online presence with images that convert – Joy Hawkins & Mike Blumenthal - https://www.rioseo.com/events/local-photos-live-event/

Mike's Links:POPABLE AND WALMART JOIN FORCES TO HELP SMALL BUSINESS RETAILERS GET BACK ON THEIR FEET AFTER THE PANDEMIC - https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/popable-and-walmart-join-forces-to-help-small-business-retailers-get-back-on-their-feet-after-the-pandemic-301662834.htmlGoogle is shutting down its dedicated Street View app next year - https://9to5google.com/2022/11/01/google-street-view-app-shutting-down/Semantic Photography: Low Hanging Fruit to Increase Google Local Conversions - https://www.nearmedia.co/semantic-photography-the-low-hanging-fruit-to-increase-google-local-conversions/Does the Number of Google Reviews Impact Ranking? [Case Study] - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/number-of-reviews-impact-ranking/Carrie's LinksReviews showing review location in Google – Darren Shaw – https://twitter.com/DarrenShaw_/status/1588964280665534464How to find reviews you haven't responded to yet in the NMX  – Joy & Colan - https://twitter.com/JoyanneHawkins/status/1588518928002998272Tanking Local Rankings? How to Turn Them Around If They've Gone Down – Phils preso from LocalU - https://twitter.com/philrozek/status/1588274549057286145LocalU on demand coming this week - https://localu.org/buy-localu-event-videos/Level up your online presence with images that convert – Joy Hawkins & Mike Blumenthal - https://www.rioseo.com/events/local-photos-live-event/

DescriptionShopify study shows much higher churn than WooCommerce, why & what are the implications?A recent study in the Mails & Globe explores retention over the past 3 years of the major e-commerce platforms. They concluded that Shopify's retention was one of the lowest particularly compared to Woo Commerce. Is this a failure on the part of Shopify or just a reflection of how easy it is to get started with the product? While interesting, does the study tell the whole story?SEMRush zero click study makes the case that the web clicks are still kingSEMRush recently completed an in-depth study of zero click behavior on Google. While the study largely ignored local search, its findings were much more granular than previous work in this area. When you discount query refinement, and users that move to a different part of Google after the initial query, that Google is sending roughly 25% of users to its own answers while sending 43% on to other websites. Apple Maps Vs Google Maps Functionality in EuropeSegment 3 desc: During his recent travels in the UK, Portugal and Italy, Mike Blumenthal used biking, driving and walking directions as well as restaurant and hotel discovery features in both Google and Apple Maps. Google's biking directions won out as Apple doesn't offer them in Europe yet. Google's hospitality POIs were so good that there was no need for TripAdvisor or other 3rd party apps. But when it came to driving directions and walking directions Apple Maps was consistently superior for a tourist.

Join special guest Chris Ratchford and Carrie Hill as they discuss the news from local search in the last week.Want to read more? Here are all the links!Chris' Links:What is Express Delivery on DoorDash? Is it Worth it? - Ridesharing Driver - https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/doordash-express-delivery/The FTC is readying its war on fake reviews - https://www.protocol.com/newsletters/policy/ftc-fake-reviews-rulesTikTok vs. Amazon: Social video giant hiring in Seattle and L.A. to build e-commerce network – GeekWire - https://www.geekwire.com/2022/tiktok-vs-amazon-social-video-giant-hiring-in-seattle-and-l-a-to-build-e-commerce-network/Google rolling out site names and updated favicon logos in search results - https://searchengineland.com/google-rolling-out-site-names-and-updated-favicon-logos-in-search-results-388714Carrie's LinksEdge of the web radio - episode 534 | Images and Local Search with Mike Blumenthal - https://edgeofthewebradio.com/seo-podcast/images-local-search-mike-blumenthal/Beginner's Guide to Google Business Profiles: What Are They, How To Use Them, and Why - Moz - Miriam Ellis - https://moz.com/blog/beginners-guide-to-google-business-profileHearing Aids Now Available OTC -  Prices set to plummet - Huffpost - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hearing-aid-prices-plummet-fda-over-the-counter-sales_n_634cbeace4b04cf8f379e438

Join special guest Chris Ratchford and Carrie Hill as they discuss the news from local search in the last week.Want to read more? Here are all the links!Chris' Links:What is Express Delivery on DoorDash? Is it Worth it? - Ridesharing Driver - https://www.ridesharingdriver.com/doordash-express-delivery/The FTC is readying its war on fake reviews - https://www.protocol.com/newsletters/policy/ftc-fake-reviews-rulesTikTok vs. Amazon: Social video giant hiring in Seattle and L.A. to build e-commerce network – GeekWire - https://www.geekwire.com/2022/tiktok-vs-amazon-social-video-giant-hiring-in-seattle-and-l-a-to-build-e-commerce-network/Google rolling out site names and updated favicon logos in search results - https://searchengineland.com/google-rolling-out-site-names-and-updated-favicon-logos-in-search-results-388714Carrie's LinksEdge of the web radio - episode 534 | Images and Local Search with Mike Blumenthal - https://edgeofthewebradio.com/seo-podcast/images-local-search-mike-blumenthal/Beginner's Guide to Google Business Profiles: What Are They, How To Use Them, and Why - Moz - Miriam Ellis - https://moz.com/blog/beginners-guide-to-google-business-profileHearing Aids Now Available OTC -  Prices set to plummet - Huffpost - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/hearing-aid-prices-plummet-fda-over-the-counter-sales_n_634cbeace4b04cf8f379e438

Mike Blumenthal's second segment on the EDGE takes us into the realm of the value of image optimization for Local Search. It's a huge conversion factor for businesses that can be easy wins. Check out the incredible tool, AirCam.ai - a service that gives a breakdown of all of the images your business needs for local visibility. Mike gives us his take on the most recent Google updates and how they may affect local visibility. He also unequivocally lays down his opinion about AI machine learning evaluating human content: Google's not being accountable for the businesses that are relying on local visibility for revenue. [00:04:35] The HCU: Content Written For People By People Evaluated By AI [00:06:40] The Machine is Getting It Wrong [00:08:40] Is Helpful Content Update Unfair to SMB's Without Budget? [00:12:37] Will the Updates Affect the Knowledge Graph? [00:14:09] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:15:11] Why are Images So Valuable to Local Search? [00:29:14] Mike's Pro Tip for Local Optimization: Aimcam.ai Thanks to our sponsors! Site Strategics https://www.sitestrategics.com Follow Mike! https://www.twitter.com/mblumenthal  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mblumenthal/  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQb7CMIgNQz38U6RVcE8rug  Connect: mblumenthal@nearmedia.co

Mike Blumenthal, “Professor Maps” of the Local SEO community, catches up with the EDGE after some time to lay out the volatility he's seen in local search. Mike's been focused on the Google Business Profile forums and has seen some pretty striking and concerning developments. Witnessing around 200 review take-downs and close to 2,000 business profile suspensions per month, Mike's a bit concerned to say the least. Where is Google's accountability and transparency in responding to these issues? There's no mechanism to challenge the decision on the review take-downs.  The value of Local Search positioning and consumer interaction is unquestionable. But one question does present itself: who's property is this, yours or Google's? [00:05:59] So Many Changes in Local SEO - The Last Few Years [00:08:20] Local SEO Volatility: A Recent Timeline [00:09:47] Google Sees Their Future as Local [00:12:16] How Valuable is Google Local Search? Sometimes 95% of Leads [00:14:07] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: edgeofthewebradio.com/pageonepower [00:17:11] The Consumer is Trained on Google Reflection of your Brand [00:18:09] Hunting in GBP Forums with a Specific Focus [00:21:39] There's No Support from Google, Once They Nuke a Review [00:22:51] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:24:34] Are We Just Going to Just Publish to Google in the Future? [00:25:49] Is This Our Property or Google's? [00:28:28] Business Suspensions Complaints are 10X  Thanks to our sponsors! Page One Power https://edgeofthewebradio.com/pageonepower  Site Strategics https://www.sitestrategics.com Follow Mike! https://www.twitter.com/mblumenthal  https://www.linkedin.com/in/mblumenthal/  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQb7CMIgNQz38U6RVcE8rug

Mike's Links:Ford Just Made a Stunning Announcement. Here's What It Means for Customers — Inc. - https://apple.news/ArPcBDLVqSp6wFK7lKXorDwGoogle hits Astroturf trail & deceives SMB in search of support for their issued - Mike Blumenthal on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1569727101871218688?s=12&t=YV5mYYCY3AHV6U-CcgKqdAiOS 16 elevates search but still fails at local and internet search - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LctX3gbIxQcComments on Adobe's 2022 Emoji Usage Trends Survey - https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/09/comments-on-adobes-2022-emoji-usage-trends-survey.htmRanking Drops for Local Service Business - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/ranking-drops-for-service-area-businesses.59362/page-2#postsCarrie's LinksSearch Console Adds Section for Merchant Listing & product listing markup - https://developers.google.com/search/blog/2022/09/merchant-listings?hl=enMordy Oberstein on Diagnosing how/why pages were crawled not indexed - https://twitter.com/MordyOberstein/status/1569671231489597441 Tl:dr - complicated “cute” article titles were a handicap to G understanding what the page/post was about.Add more descriptive subheadingsCarrie is doing SEO Chat - Thurs @ 1pm ET - Helpful Content - How do you know it's helpful? - https://twitter.com/search?q=%23seochat&src=typed_query&f=liveLocalU Advanced Tickets on Nov 2 - Speakers Announced - Agenda Coming Early Next Week! - https://localu.org/nov2Speakers Announced:Colan Nielsen @colannielsenElizabeth Rule @ownyourserpPhil Rozek @philrozekBrandon Schmidt @brandonschmidtAmanda Jordan @amandatjordanBen Fisher @TheSocialDudeCrystal Horton @imcrystalhorton+ 2 PanelsLocalU Scholarship Application (apply for a scholarship through Sept 30) - https://localu.org/localu-scholarship-application/The Fren ZoneThe Fren Zone brings you the brightest technical minds in crypto and Web3. Join our...Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

Mike's Links:Ford Just Made a Stunning Announcement. Here's What It Means for Customers — Inc. - https://apple.news/ArPcBDLVqSp6wFK7lKXorDwGoogle hits Astroturf trail & deceives SMB in search of support for their issued - Mike Blumenthal on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1569727101871218688?s=12&t=YV5mYYCY3AHV6U-CcgKqdAiOS 16 elevates search but still fails at local and internet search - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LctX3gbIxQcComments on Adobe's 2022 Emoji Usage Trends Survey - https://blog.ericgoldman.org/archives/2022/09/comments-on-adobes-2022-emoji-usage-trends-survey.htmRanking Drops for Local Service Business - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/ranking-drops-for-service-area-businesses.59362/page-2#postsCarrie's LinksSearch Console Adds Section for Merchant Listing & product listing markup - https://developers.google.com/search/blog/2022/09/merchant-listings?hl=enMordy Oberstein on Diagnosing how/why pages were crawled not indexed - https://twitter.com/MordyOberstein/status/1569671231489597441 Tl:dr - complicated “cute” article titles were a handicap to G understanding what the page/post was about.Add more descriptive subheadingsCarrie is doing SEO Chat - Thurs @ 1pm ET - Helpful Content - How do you know it's helpful? - https://twitter.com/search?q=%23seochat&src=typed_query&f=liveLocalU Advanced Tickets on Nov 2 - Speakers Announced - Agenda Coming Early Next Week! - https://localu.org/nov2Speakers Announced:Colan Nielsen @colannielsenElizabeth Rule @ownyourserpPhil Rozek @philrozekBrandon Schmidt @brandonschmidtAmanda Jordan @amandatjordanBen Fisher @TheSocialDudeCrystal Horton @imcrystalhorton+ 2 PanelsLocalU Scholarship Application (apply for a scholarship through Sept 30) - https://localu.org/localu-scholarship-application/The Fren ZoneThe Fren Zone brings you the brightest technical minds in crypto and Web3. Join our...Listen on: Apple Podcasts Spotify

In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interview Mike Blumenthal. Mike is the Co-founder and Analyst at Near Media where he researches and reports on reputation, reviews, and local search. Mike provides local consulting to a range of businesses, big and small, across the SMB and SAAS marketplaces. He is also assisting Air.cam, an online professional photographic marketplace, with pivoting to the local marketing space and helping them bring the power of photography to every business located in the US and Canada. More About Mike Blumenthal: Nearmedia.co Send Mike an email – mblumenthal@nearmedia.co Connect with Mike on Twitter Take The Marketing Assessment: Marketingassessment.co This Duct Tape Marketing Podcast episode is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network and SEMRush.

SEOs should predict the future. It's the chance to overcome competitors. Consider new techs faster than traffic and sales are yours. Mike Blumenthal shares his valuable insights on our podcast. Watch or listen to the entire episode to know a lot more. Wanna get more traffic? Submit your request on my website – https://unmiss.com/. Here…

 Chewy's provides great CX and it goes viral: When a dog owner's pet died and they asked Chewy to refund their unused food, the company went above and beyond. In doing so, they demonstrated the incredible viral value of great customer service. A simple customer service act provides bountiful returns. A look at the top 1000 Google queries on the desktop and what it says about local: Kevin Indig of Shopify looked at the top 1000 searches on Google Desktop. Interestingly at least ⅓ were local in intent and most of those were branded local searches.John Oliver & Rand Fishkin look at the two antitrust bills that might pass this summer: John Oliver, like many comedians these days, does a  better job of explaining the antitrust bills in front of Congress than the news does. And he is more fun to listen to. Rand Fishkin looks at how the bills will dramatically change what we do as marketers.The Near Memo, with David Mihm, Greg Sterling & Mike Blumenthal, is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.

If you are a business owner that gets less than flattering reviews about your company, you may participate in manipulating or suppressing reviews. For instance, you don't ask unhappy people to leave a review but ask happy customers to leave one. Additionally, you may also be tempted to buy or incentivize reviews, thinking these tactics will make the problem go away. However, is that savvy business practices or does it make the problem worse? And—is there a better way to go about responding to negative online business reviews? Shawn Hessinger, the Executive Editor for Small Business Trends, sits down with Mike Blumenthal, the co-founder and analyst at Near Media, to answer those questions and more. In this episode, they discuss new federal guidelines and how you should respond to negative reviews.

Show guest, Mike Blumenthal, shares his latest research findings on the increased power of images in local search. In this episode, you will find out what images Google wants to see, how to leverage images to improve your rankings, and how to use one of Google's free tools to maximize your chances of success.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/seo-101-on-wmr-fm/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

The number of Google My Business reviews you obtain is one of the many figures that matter in your legal practice, and you are keeping track of it meticulously. While you might be tempted to try unusual treatments or methods that promise to improve your Google My Business review rating, think twice; a Google suspension isn't the only consequence you may face; the FTC might also want to have a word with you. This week's episode features Grace and Liel discussing the recently published Online Customer Reviews: A Guide for Platforms, by the Federal Trade Commission. The message is clear: "do not review gate". The conversation explores best practices to keep your law firm out of trouble, how to handle incentives, and a final answer to whether is acceptable to have friends, family, or even staff write reviews about your law firm. So tune in, keep calm and continue generating reviews. Resources mentioned in our episode: https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/featuring-online-customer-reviews-guide-platforms (Federal Trade Commission - Online Customer Reviews Guide) https://www.nearmedia.co/ftcs-business-marketer-guidelines/ (Analysis from Mike Blumenthal on FTC's new guidelines) https://support.google.com/business/answer/4596773?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DDesktop (How to request form Google a review removal) https://incamerapodcast.com/episodes/a-law-firms-reputation/ (In Camera Podcast Complete Guide on Review Generation) Send us your questions at ask@incamerapodcast.com Enjoy the show? Please don't forget to subscribe, tell your coworkers, and leave us a review!

Join Mike and Carrie as they discuss what's new in the SERPs, including continuous scroll on mobile, getting images in mobile results, indented results, and LSA showing in the local finder and map pack. They also look at Amazon's major seasonal hiring surge,  fake reviews, franchisees' responsibility to their own social media, and more!Mike's LinksAmazon Hiring 150,000 Seasonal Workers Amid Record US Job Shortage, Surging Wages - https://www.thestreet.com/.amp/markets/amazon-hiring-150000-seasonal-workers-amid-record-us-job-shortageDollar General Workers Stare Down Historic Union Vote, Vowing "We're Gonna Fight" - https://inthesetimes.com/article/dollar-general-workers-store-connecticut-union-campaignFTC Puts Hundreds of Businesses on Notice about Fake Reviews and Other Misleading Endorsements - https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2021/10/ftc-puts-hundreds-businesses-notice-about-fake-reviews-otherMike's Take: TC to 700+ Brands: Deceptive Endorsements Will Lead to Financial Pain - https://www.nearmedia.co/ftc-notice-of-penalty-offenses-tells-700-national-advertisers-that-deceptive-endorsements-can-lead-to-financial-penalties/MN toy store responds to 1-star review over mask requirement - https://bringmethenews.com/minnesota-lifestyle/st-paul-toy-store-responds-to-1-star-review-that-complained-about-mask-requirementHow to Get Images in Mobile Search Results - Sterling Sky Inc - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/images-mobile-serps/Mike Blumenthal on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1449802079841751041Webinar: The Local SEO Firehose | The State of Local Search in 2022 - https://webinars.duda.co/the-state-of-local-search-2022?utm_source=influencer&utm_medium=anton&utm_campaign=local_webinar_oct_28Carries links:Continuous scrolling comes to Search on mobile - Niru Anand, Google - https://blog.google/products/search/continuous-scrolling-mobile/Going Local: Why Franchisees Shouldn't Rely on Parent Brands' Social Media Marketing - Karen Spader via Entrepreneur.com - https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/387431Indented Results Roll Out at 40% of SERPs - Pete Myers - Moz.com - https://moz.com/blog/indented-serp-resultsBest practices for using third-party embeds - Leena Sohoni, Addy Osmani, Katie Hempenius - https://web.dev/embed-best-practices/LSA Showing up in the map pack & local finder - Ben Fisher - https://twitter.com/TheSocialDude/status/1445906604742701060Women-Led and Veteran Led attributes now Women-Owned and Veteran Owned

Join Mike and Carrie as they discuss wins and upsets in the world of local SEO - from Walmart's newfound online momentum, Google's newest SERP changes that are frustrating the auto industry, and news about our recent AND upcoming LocalU Advanced events! This is an action-packed episode giving you a whole week's worth of updates and information all in one convenient place.Mike's Links:Walmart+ is gaining momentum, hits 32 million members, Deutsche Bank estimate - https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/14/walmart-hits-32-million-members-deutsche-bank-estimates.htmlWhat Reviews Tell Us About How Walmart Is Really Doing - https://www.nearmedia.co/walmart-inventory-woes-customer-reviews/Court: Just Because An Anonymous Yelp Reviewer Is Mean, Doesn't Mean You Get To Unmask The Reviewer - https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20210901/23112147487/court-just-because-anonymous-yelp-reviewer-is-mean-doesnt-mean-you-get-to-unmask-reviewer.shtmlDetecting Brand Penetration Over Geographic Locations - Go Fish Digital - https://gofishdigital-com.cdn.ampproject.org/c/s/gofishdigital.com/detecting-brand-penetration-over-geographic-locations/amp/WhatsApp launches test of in-app business directory - https://www.reuters.com/article/whatsapp-business-idUSKBN2GB1SVTwitter's GMB Profile, Intuit's $12B Strategy, Transatlantic Privacy Fail - https://www.nearmedia.co/twitters-gmb-profile-intuits-12b-strategy-transatlantic-privacy-fail/Dave Smart on Twitter - Robots.txt tester - https://twitter.com/davewsmart/status/1439214231342174209?s=12Page Experience Update Measurable - https://www.sistrix.com/blog/core-web-vitals-is-a-measurable-ranking-factor/Cloudflare adds automated Signed Exchanges for Google Search - https://www.coywolf.news/seo/cloudflare-automated-signed-exchanges-sxg-for-google-search/Zyppy SEO — Higher Google Rankings & Traffic - https://zyppy.com/Survey Reveals That UGC Can Drive Improved Trust and Loyalty for eCommerce Brands - https://www.socialmediatoday.com/news/survey-reveals-that-ugc-can-drive-improved-trust-and-loyalty-for-ecommerce/606801/Do Images Impact Ranking on Google? [Case Study] - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/do-images-impact-ranking-on-google/Reviews on Independent Sites - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/reviews-on-independent-sites.58206/Mike Blumenthal on Twitter review solicitation tactic/idea - https://twitte

Apple Tracking Opt-in at 4% in US, lower than anticipated, Shopify focuses on helping SMB be better and retain customer relationships, Facebooks Neighborhood, a NextDoor clone, is likely to be like Nextdoor but worse because of poor moerationAs the Apple 3rd party opt in rolls out, opt in numbers are lower than anticipated. THis points ot the consumers desire for more privacy and why government should up their privacy gameUnlike Facebook and Google who aggregate consumers to gain levarge over businesses, Shopify focuses soley on the SMB and helps them not just to build a better ecommerce experience but also with things like capital. They have become the second biggest e-commerce site behind Amaaon. Facebook once again knocks off another marketplace product that might just might create a referral opportunity for SMBS IF they can keep the communities from going down the rabbitt whole of unmoderated mayhem. Episode 14With David Mihm, Greg Sterling & Mike Blumenthal

Mike Blumenthal talks with Jason Barnard about review attributes Mike Blumenthal loves to say “All Local, All the time”. He is an authority on local SEO with 20 years of experience under his belt... so, who better than “The Godfather of Local” himself to discuss Google's new feature — Google Review Attributes. This new feature in Google allows consumers to leave a quality rating about attributes concerning the business  as part of their review and, according to Mike, as a business, there's a lot of reasons to love: it helps build consistency in customer service, and actionable information — which ultimately is the purpose of reviews — and it gives a chance to analyze your competitors in a structured and consistent manner. Mike goes on to explain how reviews, and particularly review attributes directly influence local search results and how to take advantage of that. He shares the strategies he uses with his clients to best leverage reviews and attributes in a successful local SEO strategy. What you'll learn from Mike Blumenthal 00:00 Mike Blumenthal and Jason Barnard00:43 The argument for Google being your homepage01:52 GatherUp's Knowledge Panel07:05 What are Review Attributes?12:26 Google Attributes focus on service-based industries15:54 In what industries are Google Attributes currently appearing?19:31 Could this new feature put the fear of Google into businesses?21:18 Google Maps as the bleeding edge for the Knowledge Graph23:58 How the information about reviews extracted by Google influences local search results26:08 How to encourage your customers to provide specific review content28:52 Is there a direct effect in a Brand's local search performance from a great attribute rating?30:17 The how-to of getting and leveraging first and third party reviews34:58 Could we say that Google homepage is Google's reflection of the world's opinion of you?38:25 How to get clients to give reviews on the different platforms Helpful Resources About How Review Attributes Work in Local SEO Have Review Attributes Fixed A Google Review Problem?The (Almost) Complete List of Google Review Attribute Categories Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe here >> This episode was recorded live on video February 3rd 2021 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Mike Blumenthal talks with Jason Barnard about review attributes Mike Blumenthal loves to say “All Local, All the time”. He is an authority on local SEO with 20 years of experience under his belt... so, who better than “The Godfather of Local” himself to discuss Google's new feature — Google Review Attributes. This new feature in Google allows consumers to leave a quality rating about attributes concerning the business  as part of their review and, according to Mike, as a business, there's a lot of reasons to love: it helps build consistency in customer service, and actionable information — which ultimately is the purpose of reviews — and it gives a chance to analyze your competitors in a structured and consistent manner. Mike goes on to explain how reviews, and particularly review attributes directly influence local search results and how to take advantage of that. He shares the strategies he uses with his clients to best leverage reviews and attributes in a successful local SEO strategy. What you'll learn from Mike Blumenthal 00:00 Mike Blumenthal and Jason Barnard00:43 The argument for Google being your homepage01:52 GatherUp's Knowledge Panel07:05 What are Review Attributes?12:26 Google Attributes focus on service-based industries15:54 In what industries are Google Attributes currently appearing?19:31 Could this new feature put the fear of Google into businesses?21:18 Google Maps as the bleeding edge for the Knowledge Graph23:58 How the information about reviews extracted by Google influences local search results26:08 How to encourage your customers to provide specific review content28:52 Is there a direct effect in a Brand's local search performance from a great attribute rating?30:17 The how-to of getting and leveraging first and third party reviews34:58 Could we say that Google homepage is Google's reflection of the world's opinion of you?38:25 How to get clients to give reviews on the different platforms Helpful Resources About How Review Attributes Work in Local SEO Have Review Attributes Fixed A Google Review Problem?The (Almost) Complete List of Google Review Attribute Categories Subscribe to the podcast Subscribe here >> This episode was recorded live on video February 3rd 2021 Recorded live at Kalicube Tuesdays (Digital Marketing Livestream Event Series). Watch the video now >>

Greg Gifford with Jason Barnard at SMX West Greg starts by singing the song back to me. Then we discuss his world-famous slide decks. Then onto Google is your new Homepage. Thanks to Google my Business, in local this has been the case for years - Mike Blumenthal said it is 2017. People searching your brand name in a near me / local context will probably not visit your site. So that Brand SERP is the first and the last impression they get before engaging with you. When was the last time you visited a restaurant website after searching their name? Do you need a website any more? Greg gives a quick rundown of the top tips for GMB… and since in local users will rarely visit your site, it effectively becomes your site. Then onto video - wich is now a necessity for your digital strategy, rather than luxury. And it can be low cost without looking cheap. Greg gives some amazing tips for making great videos. And, of course, those videos can rank on your Brand SERP. Aleyda Solis using Wistia, and Greg agrees. Both suggest adding it to YouTube too. Greg goes as far as to also adds it to Facebook and LinkedIn to reach the biggest possible audience. It's all about exposure… Then onto a more general discussion about digital marketing has come full circle and we are now back to marketing… and that maybe marketers can now approach digital marketing more confidently since it is simply one more piece of their marketing pie, and now a separate 'thing'. Lastly, Brand SERPs - what appears when someone searches your brand name - you can and should, control that experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZe2vHal2SA What You'll learn 0:26 Greg's original movie-themed talks1:30 Google is your new homepage and the importance of your GMB listing3:00 Are you losing customers or conversions with zero-click search?3:30 How to optimize your GMB5:24 Is video content production really expensive?6:35 Is video content creation only reserved for those naturally engaging and good on camera?7:40 The importance of video boxes on your Brand SERP, and platforms like Wistia and Youtube for better metrics8:36 Greg's video upload strategy designed to reach multiple audiences10:32 Digital Marketing has come full circle as the old school methods become relevant again12:08 How to deal with a bad review to your business showing up on your Brand SERP14:27 The correct approach on how to control people's experience when they search for your brand

Greg Gifford with Jason Barnard at SMX West Greg starts by singing the song back to me. Then we discuss his world-famous slide decks. Then onto Google is your new Homepage. Thanks to Google my Business, in local this has been the case for years - Mike Blumenthal said it is 2017. People searching your brand name in a near me / local context will probably not visit your site. So that Brand SERP is the first and the last impression they get before engaging with you. When was the last time you visited a restaurant website after searching their name? Do you need a website any more? Greg gives a quick rundown of the top tips for GMB… and since in local users will rarely visit your site, it effectively becomes your site. Then onto video - wich is now a necessity for your digital strategy, rather than luxury. And it can be low cost without looking cheap. Greg gives some amazing tips for making great videos. And, of course, those videos can rank on your Brand SERP. Aleyda Solis using Wistia, and Greg agrees. Both suggest adding it to YouTube too. Greg goes as far as to also adds it to Facebook and LinkedIn to reach the biggest possible audience. It's all about exposure… Then onto a more general discussion about digital marketing has come full circle and we are now back to marketing… and that maybe marketers can now approach digital marketing more confidently since it is simply one more piece of their marketing pie, and now a separate 'thing'. Lastly, Brand SERPs - what appears when someone searches your brand name - you can and should, control that experience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZe2vHal2SA What You'll learn 0:26 Greg's original movie-themed talks1:30 Google is your new homepage and the importance of your GMB listing3:00 Are you losing customers or conversions with zero-click search?3:30 How to optimize your GMB5:24 Is video content production really expensive?6:35 Is video content creation only reserved for those naturally engaging and good on camera?7:40 The importance of video boxes on your Brand SERP, and platforms like Wistia and Youtube for better metrics8:36 Greg's video upload strategy designed to reach multiple audiences10:32 Digital Marketing has come full circle as the old school methods become relevant again12:08 How to deal with a bad review to your business showing up on your Brand SERP14:27 The correct approach on how to control people's experience when they search for your brand

FULL SHOW NOTES:[INTRO music]00:12 Aaron Weiche: Episode 23, Course Correcting.00:16 INTRO SPEAKER: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. Sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins, and losses shared in each episode. From Aaron Weiche of GatherUp and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]00:43 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. I'm Aaron.00:46 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.00:47 AW: And I just finished eating a chocolate chip cookie. What do you think about that? 00:52 DS: It sounds pretty good. I just finished eating a salad. It's the exact opposite. [chuckle]00:58 AW: If my wife listens to this episode, I'm gonna get yelled at, but when I got gas at the gas station, they have these big chocolate chip cookies, and, yeah, this just looked like a great afternoon snack.[chuckle]01:09 DS: Totally, yeah. And now you made me wanna go get one.[laughter]01:13 AW: I'll mail you one.01:14 DS: Wow, I don't know if it'll be good by the time it gets here.[laughter]01:18 AW: So what's been going on other than salads and cookies? I know what's been going on. You spent all week last week hosting a massive virtual summit with 4000-5000 attendees. Let's talk about that a little bit before we get into our main topic today.01:34 DS: Yeah, so it's been huge. This summit was a massive success. We had actually 5500 people register for the summit.01:41 AW: Wow.01:42 DS: And pretty great attendance to all the different talks, and so it was big and we've been getting nothing but a steady stream of positive feedback about it. Just people comparing it to other conferences and saying how awesome it was and, yeah, so it was a great success. People love the content, and of course, I had some of the best speakers in the world such as Aaron Weiche, Mike Blumenthal, Joey Hawkins, so we had fantastic speakers. Basically, all the most known speakers in local search were there. Some heavy hitters outside of the local specific space like Rand Fishkin spoke. Michael King spoke. Brodie Clark, who was really building a name for himself down under in Australia, he spoke as well. And so, yeah, it was a great conference. We had huge visibility and, yeah, it was good. It was all good.02:31 DS: It was so much work though. Oh, my God, I can't... I'm glad it's over because not only was it so much work to put it together, I had my own presentation to do, the Local Search Ranking Factor survey had to get done out there, recreated, re-pull all the data, re-analyze all the data, build a slide deck, build a presentation around it and present it. And I handed that in like Monday night. The night before we were going live with the conference, I handed in my recording, and it was just a very stressful time. Glad it's over.03:01 AW: Yeah. Now, I wanna touch on a few benefits that we noticed in having myself and Mike both from GatherUp speaking at it. Our parent company Traject was a sponsor as well. They used their sponsor slot to tease our social product, which has been rebranded, called Fanbooster. But I wanna get back to seeing if you can quantify the work you put into it all, but on our side, the benefits with two speaking topics, we had great exposure, I can only guess you basically led off the conference with Mike, which I'm thinking was another hit. For a decade, he has been probably one of or the biggest thought leader in the space.03:50 DS: Totally.03:51 AW: And, yeah, a great draw and just the reason I love working with Mike is just the levels he can think on, and he gave a great talk around review attributes, which plays heavily into our platform and things like that. And then two days later, 'cause it was a three-day conference, and I talked on some things strategically related to reviews and reputation management. But for us specifically, we saw double the leads last week of what we had been averaging like the four to six weeks prior, which really great.04:30 AW: Any time you can 2X something is fabulous, and it returned our leads to pre-COVID for a week, which is awesome. I'm probably gonna be a little maybe frowny face next week when they jump down most likely again a little bit, but maybe some of those that paid for the videos and things like that are watching in this week, and then they'll still be interested to sign up. So we had a really great experience. A lot of Twitter conversation, which is always awesome, great, in the moment mentions, new Twitter followers, things like that. So from our standpoint, it was fabulous. From yours, what was the amount of work that it took you to put this together? I guess I just wanna frame up for any of our listeners that might be considering hosting a virtual conference as a marketing vehicle.05:24 DS: Yeah, I would love to be able to quantify the hours. It's tough to say. We've been working on it for about six months. Heavily working on it certainly through July and August, lots of recording. So there were 34 presentations, one of them mine, and then all the other ones I had to book an hour to record with that speaker. There was a ton of setting up all the speakers, doing speaker agreements, lots of chasing with regards to sponsorships too. So getting sponsors, going back and forth with them on a lot of stuff, writing up sponsorship agreements, getting the platform launched. We used the system called HeySummit, which turned out really well. But getting that whole website set up, my own team, if I think about what Jessie and Sydney put into it, it was almost a full-time job for them. And so hours, probably hundreds, a couple of hundred of hours have gone into launching this thing, and so it was a lot of work. And not only that, we worked with a company called HeySummit, and they were great 'cause they keep everything organized, and they also did all of our video editing, all the videos launched onto the site, and so...06:40 DS: Between all of us, maybe 300 hours is what it takes to put on a conference like this. If I had to guesstimate at it, maybe 400, 300-400. So that's a big investment. That's a big expense. The expenses broke even, so it's not really a money-making venture. We took any money that we got from sponsorship and we put it back into Facebook ads, Facebook and Instagram ads, to market the conference. So our whole goal was to get that attendance list up as high as possible, and we managed to get 5500 through all of our marketing efforts. And then ticket sales are covering all the expenses, expenses of that company that we worked with and speaker gifts, and so there's really nothing left in the end. It's not a money-making venture on its own. It was completely a marketing exercise for us to just get our brand in front of more people.07:28 AW: Yeah, and so you did that at a very large scale. You also, too, because of... The local search community is very niche and they're really... There's been a couple of attempts. MozCon created their own local event, and now they've just folded local into MozCon itself, which is a very large event in the SEO community. But I really saw it as you took the opportunity of a premier event in local search has been vacated, and you just claimed it heavily with what you did, and I think that's pretty cool.08:03 DS: Yeah, I think it's cool that way. And it's like, this one was so successful that we can't not do it again, so it's gonna be an annual thing. There's also some talk about doing spin-off conferences. Because we have all the talks pre-recorded, we could pull in a few new speakers that are specific to, let's say, dentistry. Like we'd get some top dental marketing guys to come in, and we'd do a few presentations with them, and then we'd pull out eight good... Our favorite talks from the summit, and we've got a new conference and it's really easy to spin it up now. And so we're actually thinking about doing a bunch of industry-specific conferences. A whole new set of sponsors, a whole new marketing push. So it's an interesting angle that we can keep running with for additional exposure into different markets in terms of marketing Whitespark. So the marketing potential of this is pretty huge.08:52 AW: Yeah, that's awesome. Now, you guys did a really great job. Internally, I was saying it made me miss 2019 because conferences and public speaking have been so important to GatherUp's growth and something that Mike and I are just wired to do, to share and network and connect through those events. And having that completely shut off in 2020, has been... It's removed a major marketing arrow out of our quiver, so it was nice to see that bump. We've seen it with a couple of the local universities in small chunks as well, but it was really nice to have that happen. And yeah, I'm looking forward to what else you guys can do with it with what you learned year one and what went right and what went wrong. You brought a lot of great speakers and you got some new faces in there, and I think you worked really hard on that, so well done.09:44 DS: Thank you.09:46 AW: I was definitely proud, excited, jealous, all of those things, which are all good.09:51 DS: Yeah, I'm excited about it too. I'm excited about the future of it. One thing that stood out for me is that you talked about the surge in leads that you saw from your presentations. It was fascinating to me that we did not see that. As the premier sponsor, the premier, we had four presentations from Whitespark. At the end of so many things there was all these like, "Hey, Whitespark deals," but we didn't really see a big lift in leads or sales from it, and it speaks to me about we just don't have the greatest products and services that are of interest to people.10:27 DS: We are very heavily citation-based, and that's part of it. Citations are losing interest in the industry right now but it's a big part of what we do, and so it just wasn't like, "Oh, awesome, citations." If I had done this conference six years ago, then I'm sure it would have been a massive business booster on the citation side of things. But our GMB service is amazing, and I think that there's a great potential there, and we saw some growth from a conference there. But our products, they're a little bit scattered. We got one for citations, we have one for reputation, we have one for rank tracking, but people, they're like, "Oh, I don't know what I should sign up for." So it's really like we have this grander vision of an integrated product that we're building, and we're working on that. So getting that launched as soon as possible is certainly a takeaway from the conference.11:14 AW: Yeah, no, that's really interesting and probably a super valuable takeaway, Daren. That could end up being... Depending upon how that sits with you and what you do with that, that might be as valuable as the conference and the marketing and the exposure itself. Is like what... It helped you learn something about yourself in a very fast cycle 'cause you saw it as, "We had 5000 people here with our name splashed all over it, leading the conversation, signed up through our website, all of these things, and it didn't move our sales in any direction." Right? 11:52 DS: Right. Yeah.11:53 AW: Yeah, no, that's really... That's, I don't know, telling/interesting/gave you some elongated, you don't notice it. If it's 5000 users over a year, you don't notice it, but when it's over a couple of weeks, it's something that really caught your eye.12:12 DS: Yeah, totally. And I think we are dialed in for next year, so when we do this conference again next year, we will have our software in the place, and so it'll be that perfect combination of like we know how to do this conference now, and so we do the conference, we have the right product to sell people, we can market it better and be in a much stronger position. So yeah, it's all good. All heading in the right direction.12:30 AW: On the flip side of that, and maybe around the leads and the bump we saw, I've really been both enjoying and realizing lately we finally have what I feel is like a very mature solution. And it's taken six years to get to that, and we still have things we wanna do and a couple of big piece items, but really gone are the days where 50% of the questions a prospect might ask you, you didn't have a great answer for or didn't have multiple options for. Where now it's like 10% of the questions might fall into that or even less to what's there.13:08 DS: That's amazing.13:09 AW: Yeah, and that just makes it great that when we get exposure, and we get in front of people, when we have the right marketing, it drives interest, leads, demos, sales for us. So it's really interesting to have that positioning now with it and understand that. And along those lines like...13:28 AW: I wish we could do a ton more marketing right now, it's really... The pandemic and the way, there's a lot of wait and see in the economy, especially with our larger enterprise prospects and customers. And it's such a hard thing to figure out in so many areas right now, and sales are really quiet for us on the upper end. Our resellers are creating movement and single locations are still coming on, so like the... If you frame it up as like onesie, twosies, we're making it there, our retention is great. We actually, in August, returned up above our pre-COVID revenue number, so it made... We didn't dip too far down and it didn't take too much for us to climb back up and be back to growing again and have gotten above what we lost in the first month or two, and things like that. Which is super encouraging, and I'm proud of our team for how hard, across the spectrum, everyone worked to make that happen. But it does get really... It's almost frustrating now to like, Oh, we have so many of these pieces in place, and the one thing that we could really get after is marketing and sales, and it is such a challenging marketing and sales environment right now.14:40 DS: Right, yeah, exactly. So it's so hard with the COVID situation, every... Budgets are tight, people are not really exploring new products right now, so... Yeah, I get that. And it's nice for you to be in that position, it's like we're almost in opposite positions: You've got a very mature product that you are struggling to do the marketing for, we've got a really great marketing engine and not the mature product. So it's like we've got to dial in our product, you've gotta ramp up your marketing somehow.15:09 AW: Well, and I think that serves as a great segue into the main topic that we wanna talk about today. I will say, I think there's no better time to be building than right now. If people aren't buying, great... Build. So that when that releases, when that changes, when that gets better, you have more to offer. Anyone, if you're in position in your product and you know you have some product market fit or things going your way, I would just double down on that so hard right now, so that when budgets loosen up, things pick up, whether that's a couple of months, six months, 12 months, 24 months, whatever it is, be in position to command those dollars. Take what you would invest into marketing and put it into the product. That would be my advice with this.15:57 DS: Agreed, 100%. That's what we're trying to do for sure. We're really focused on product right now. I'm trying to stay focused, I gotta stop distracting my team with all these side level, "Hey, here's a cool tool we could build, that doesn't actually drive any revenue for Whitespark, but hey, I wanna build it 'cause I love SEO." I need to stop doing that.16:16 AW: Alright, well, I'll try to hold you to that. I should probably stop eating gas station cookies, but we know how these battles go.16:24 DS: Yeah. Well, speaking of staying focused, one of the things that's come up for us recently, and I... This is the main thing, course correcting, it's like we had this feature that I got distracted with it, and I wanted to talk about that on the podcast today. It was like this idea that we were gonna build this feature called screenshots in our rank tracker. So we wanted to add this feature to our local rank tracking product that would allow people to see an actual visual of the rankings. So, like, actually we take a screen shot of every page. So it seemed like such a good idea, so we built this... The thing, we spent probably a good month and a half, two months building this feature. We launched the feature, it has had zero impact on our sales for the most part, so it's been useless from that perspective. And adoption rate of the feature was fairly low too.17:23 DS: Some people liked it, but the thing that it ended up doing was, while it was two months of development time, but then it was also... It's hugely expensive to... We had to spin up more servers to process everything, we had to implement new structures, and our actual crawling budget is way more expensive, it's like a separate crawl for each thing. We have to store all of those screenshots for 90 days. So we're spending a ton of money on S3 storage now, and so it was like, we launched this feature, did not help our business whatsoever, cost us a ton, continues to cost us a ton in operating costs, and so it's like we just made the decision to ditch the feature. And it's disappointed a few customers, but we set the email, we dropped the feature, we had three people cancel, that's it, just three. And so we've now saved ourselves massive maintenance costs, massive ongoing operating costs. And it really had no impact. And so it's like, that's the topic that's been on my mind and the main thing I really wanted to talk about.18:31 AW: Yeah, so let's go back to the beginning. Where did this feature originate from? Was this an internal idea, your idea, feedback from a customer, What does that look like? 18:41 DS: It was feedback from a potentially important customer, and it was really... It was Joy Hopkins that drove this feature. I blame you, Joy, if you're listening [chuckle] Basically, we launched the feature because Joy was like, "Listen, I'm using a competitor's tool. I really like your tool, but I can't use it 'cause it doesn't have screenshots, I use screenshots all the time." And I'm like, "Yeah, I know I've always wanted screenshots too." And so it's interesting to see how a decision like that can come from a single conversation with a single customer, and I think there's a big lesson there, it's like, do not drive your features by what one customer asked for. We've gotten caught by that a couple of times where it's like, we hear one or two people ask for something, but it's like, does it actually appeal to the entire user base? Is it that important to invest the time into? And so it's an important lesson to prioritize your feature development based off of one, how broad is the appeal for this feature and two, what will it to cost to build this feature? And I think we failed miserably on both of those.19:47 AW: Yeah. Has it spurned in you more ideas now, how to validate? It still doesn't mean one person can't give you a great suggestion.19:56 DS: Totally.19:57 AW: But then how might you bring that to your audience or what exists in your communication flows you're with right now where you'd be able to say, "You know what, we've actually had six other people request this" or "I know some people that'd be interested" or "Let me schedule a couple of calls with some of my power users and see what they think about it". And especially if it's a feature where... When you roll this out, were there any... Were you asking people to pay more for it or you were just including it and eating up margin in your current plan? 20:29 DS: Well sure, that's another good question and another good lesson is that one, we should've had it as an add-on at the very least. So it's like if you want this, you've gotta pay extra for it. Because it actually has significant additional operating costs, we should've charged for it. So that was another mistake made in the roll out of this feature. And then only the people that would've really wanted it would've paid for it. But even then, if by having the... Looking back at it, I'd probably still wouldn't have done it because there wouldn't have been enough people interested that would have justified the cost to build it. But to your question, it has made me think about implementing something like Kenney IO. Have you seen that? It's like this little feature request thing. It's like a software that you can have set up and customers can submit, "Hey, these are the features I want" and then they can upvote existing features that exist in there. And so it's like that way, you can kinda make sure that your development is driven by what your customers are asking for and then you have a little widget inside the tools like, "Do you have any feature requests? Let us know." and then that goes over to Kenney. I think that's a really smart idea and it's got me thinking about what... About adding that to our software? 21:40 AW: One thing I would almost suggest, even if it is something that you're not planning on feature gating in a plan or raising a price for, have a handful of phone calls, show them basic visual mocks or explain it, and then when they... If you ask a... Would you leverage this? Would this be something that would be really interesting or valuable to you? And they say "Yes," and then just pose the question,"How much more a month would you spend with us?".22:08 DS: Sure.22:09 AW: Right? 22:09 DS: What is it worth? 22:10 AW: Yeah. Would they actually put money on it? 22:13 DS: Yeah.22:13 AW: Even if everyone likes the idea, but everybody's like, "No, I wouldn't spend any more for it", then you also get like, "I'm saying yes to you to be nice because you've taken the time and it looks nice, but if you're asking me right now how much more I'd pay for it, I'm not gonna pay for it. I don't need it that bad".22:31 DS: Absolutely. Like, "Yeah sure. Give me this new feature. I might check it out. Sure, cool, but not giving you any more money for it". And honestly, I swear, if I had asked that question, I would've got a lot of people saying, "No, I'm not gonna pay more for it. I don't care about it that much" and then that would've told me and saved me all the hassle of building this. And so there's actually two things that we're... The topic of this podcast is course correcting, but there's also that preventative thing that we need to look at. It's like, how do you prevent yourself from building a feature that is actually not valuable.23:01 AW: Yeah. Well, it's that question, how did we end up on this course to have to correct it in the first place? 23:07 DS: Yeah.23:07 AW: It's definitely a piece to it. And it's like... It's something I still struggle with because I do build heavily off of intuition. But a lot of times that intuition isn't uninformed. It is from looking at, What are other people doing? What exists? What are competitors allowing people to do? It is taking in a lot of education across other things. It's even... I listen to probably six, seven talks from the Local Search Summit and it was just to get a feel for what's hot in certain areas, what are these leading experts pointing people in a direction, things like that, and then how does that play into what we're doing or what we should focus on or how can we even change our messaging to capitalize on it.23:56 AW: Like in the case, both David Mihm and Rand Fishkin's talk, talked about email and its value and just how much it outperforms social, and social is not just shiny, we gotta have it and it's sexy and fun and everything else and we have a social feature we put a lot into and it's very popular and gets used. But I've also written a couple of things like, "Hey, don't just use this for social. You can use this for images on your website or images in your email newsletters," and it just reaffirmed to me like, I'd put out a couple of tweets, piggy-backing on your hashtag and I'm like, "Hey, if you watched Rand and David's talk and you saw... So a email opens or 256 acts of engagement rate of social posts.24:42 DS: It's amazing.24:43 AW: Yeah, you're ready to double down on email, we've got you covered with the same solution that does social. So it is. You do have to do a lot of that intake. Obviously, having a way to capture the customer's voice, we still sometimes struggle at that. We keep loose track. We don't have an exact scoreboard but we do understand what people want in certain things and kind of loosely keep track of it. But I can't go and get like, "Oh well, 19 people have requested this, so you're the 20th. We really should build this".25:16 DS: Right.25:16 AW: But it would be helpful to make that more quantified.25:20 DS: Yeah. I was kind of feeling the same way. It's like one, we're not really asking for future requests and two, we're not scoring them. So I think those two things are super valuable and rather than me spending so much time trying to build based off of intuition, which of course, I think I have decent intuition, except in the rank track or screenshots example [chuckle] Generally, I think I have a decent sense about what would be appealing to the market, because I'm actively in the market. I'm always engaged in this stuff. But I think it'd be awesome to pull our customers and make sure that we're building based off of what people want. It's an important lesson I'm taking from this.26:01 AW: Yeah, well, one, I think you obviously saw where things were trending, you saw how you were leaking on this and there wasn't benefit, and the people weren't championing it, so you made the call to stop. And I think that's a progression because a year ago, you might not have done that. Correct? 26:19 DS: Yeah, we might have just continued to believe, in fact, I might not even looked at the numbers, I've been like... I didn't even notice that it was like, oh yeah, I forgot we launched that thing, it was costing us this much, and it didn't really impact subscriptions, but I'm trying to keep a closer eye on such things now.26:33 AW: Yeah, and did any part of you wanna talk to the three people that loved it so much that were there... 'Cause one thing I always struggle with, it can either be if you build something that doesn't take off, it either just didn't quite get over the hump where you built some, but not enough for it to really take hold. And someone else that does value it, could they offer you the last legs where then you can make the determination like, "Okay, it's gonna take me another two weeks or another month to build it this much better or to add this other benefit to it, and I'll do that. And if that doesn't change it, then I will shelf it, but I'm already 80% of the way, so just going a little further doesn't hurt, or did you just say "No, I know enough is enough, no one exposed anything great to me. It's just time to sunset it."27:23 DS: Yeah, I think those are some really good ideas and I would recommend anyone do something like you just proposed. In our case, we were limited and not really able to do that for this feature because one, we were exploring into whole new crawling architecture that we wanted to use instead of what we were currently using, but we couldn't because of screenshots, it was preventing us from switching to a much better solution that would allow us to maintain our crawl much better, and so we couldn't do it 'cause of the screenshots, and so that was like, "Gosh, these screenshots aren't paying us anything, let's just get rid of them," because that was the big driver of why we needed to do it.27:58 DS: And then the other factor is our rank tracker product is something we're going to maintain, but it's not generally going to be the thing that we're gonna put a lot of love into, because we have a broader vision, we're gonna build rank tracking into the broader vision, and then we'll eventually transition people over to our new software, and so when that happens, it's like I don't want to pull customers and find out that I can make it better by doing this when I don't want to invest any more Dev time into our existing rank tracking product.28:29 AW: Yeah, not easy, but sounds like you made the right call. You're doing a post-mortem on how we got here. How can I understand what people want more? How should I do more vetting of the value where they actually pay money for it? Things like that. I think those are all good lessons to learn and you have some actions to take next time.28:52 DS: Yeah, 100%. 'Cause I feel good about it, I'm taking the lessons and continuing to learn and grow and get better.29:00 AW: Interesting enough, I'm probably in the middle of your situation, so the timing of when you sent an email on this last week and you're like, "Oh, and I wanna talk about this." That was interesting. I have this internal conversation going, but we have a new reporting feature that we wanna put out, I'm not gonna get too specific and name it, but I wanna put this out, and so we've gone through the concept, we had to do a bunch of work in organizing the data on the back-end. So a very long time of doing a lot of just difficult data mapping. So one of those where you do all that work and you really don't have anything to show for it, because there's nothing to show for it, until you create a visual display where it's gonna show. So you do all this work on the plumbing, data mapping, everything else, it's non-sexy, none of the world knows that you actually had to put in all this time to make that happen. Now, once it's done. There's a bunch of different things that we can do with it. It just needed to be done regardless of this report or not.30:04 AW: But then I took... Alright, I created the wire frame, the purpose, the feature spec, all that, took it to our design in front-end and got it put together. And so it's at that stage right now and close to probably going into a sprint for development, and I stumbled upon someone else doing something similar, and they're doing it like 10 times better. [chuckle] And I just... For a week now, I've been putting off telling my product manager... I've just been like, okay, we're already this far down, this at least gets us something here. The lift isn't too crazy with what it is. It's getting something out the door. But then when I see how these other ones done, I'm like, oh, this is so much better because of this and this, and it's more visual and tells a better story, I missed on how I put this together, and now someone else has shown me like, "Hey, here's what you should have done 10 times better. And so I'm trying to figure out do I just move it forward and take the win in a month that it's out there, or do I course correct, shut it down, re-wire frame, re-front-end Dev, and probably doesn't see the light of day for three months. What would you do? 31:26 DS: Yeah, right. And so is this a feature that you have pulled your customers, you know that they're all waiting for this, you have a lot of interest in it, and it will provide a significant additional benefit to your users, and in that case, it might be worth revisiting. If you think it is like a small percentage will even care, then maybe you just roll out the basic version of it. Right? 31:50 AW: Yeah, so we've definitely been asked for it. It's definitely something in the space is... It's not a table stake kind of thing, but it's not a like, "Oh, this is the only tool that has... " There's plenty of tools that have this, but it is something that's definitely beneficial in a number of ways, and I think the hardest part is getting to... You know how you have certain features that are expected must haves, no matter if people really leverage it or really love it. You know what I mean? And I feel like this falls into that category where a third will really love it and use it beneficially and it helps them. A third notice it, see it every now and then and they're happy that it's there. And then another third, it was like, "Yeah, it's a checkmark when we were choosing tools, but we don't leverage it or use it. It's not a main driver for us." So that makes it even a little bit more difficult. Like just saying, "We have it," and the basic one I put together, that's gonna meet two-thirds of that audience.33:02 DS: Well, there, I think you just answered it, right, 'cause you're not gonna go back to the drawing board on it, are you? Do you think it's gonna be worth it if it meets the need, and it'll also get to put the checklist on your feature list? 33:13 AW: I still struggle though, 'cause I... One of my personal mantras, right, is good is the enemy of great. And this is a perfect example of like yeah, the, what we have in the pipeline right now is good. It's not great. And especially, sometimes you get that feeling and it gnaws at you and you're like, "Alright, we'll work in some new features. We'll get to this as soon as I get this up, these other priorities done." But for some reason, because I got to physically see great from how someone else is doing it, I'm like, "Well, that's just going against my own ethos. That's pretty dumb." [chuckle]33:54 DS: Yeah, it's like you just can't get past your personal need to develop something that's great. You can't launch a, what you would now consider half-assed version of it.34:04 AW: Yeah. And when I look at it like, "Alright, if I'm costing two months or three months, well, what's gonna happen in that meantime that's so... Part of it is just this feeling to ship new code and ship new features, which I think anyone in SaaS, you feel it. Whenever I describe SaaS in two words, it's... Or in two main themes, it's ship code and sell. That's the two main jobs you have in SaaS, and so part of it, like bringing new features, new eye candy, things you get to blog about, tweet about, showing a demo, all those other things, you need that. It is part of your lifeblood. So part of me is like, "Oh, I gotta put that off. And it was slated to be in this spot for something we can talk about," so I think some of it's just getting past that pressure that you constantly put on yourself to whatever it is, 30 days, 60 days, you need something new to keep people talking about you and to keep improving the product.35:06 DS: Yeah. It's so hard, Eventually you end up like in our case, our dev team is just so... They're pulled in so many different directions, and it's hard to continue a fast cycle of shipping. Have you ever seen ClickUp? Do you use ClickUp? 35:22 AW: We do not use ClickUp.  Is ClickUp a...35:26 DS: It's like Asana and Monday. It's like a project app.35:29 AW: Okay, yeah. No, we use some Asana. We're more into using a lot of the other tools in like Atlassian now, so like...35:37 DS: JIRA and stuff, yeah.35:39 AW: Yeah. Confluence and stuff like that.35:42 DS: Yeah, well, ClickUp just blows my mind, because every week, every Friday, I get an email from ClickUp saying like, "These are the five new features we shipped," and I cannot believe how quickly they are launching features and they're good features. It's like they're serious things. They're launching new shit all the time. It's amazing.36:01 AW: Yeah, but that's where you have to ask what's that size of their engineering team, where you have these... They might have, I don't know, the... I have no idea what they have. But they could have five different teams of five that each one has a rotation. So you're building in your team of five and you release and then you have five weeks till you have to release again in your rotation, because the next team has week two, the next team week three, like...36:27 DS: Sure.36:28 AW: Yeah, if you have that cadence and you can do it, that's pretty awesome.36:32 DS: I want that. I want that, Aaron.[chuckle]36:34 DS: How do we get that? [chuckle]36:36 AW: You want that with not even five developers, though. That's the hard part.36:40 DS: I want that with my two full-time developers.36:43 AW: Yep. Shiny, wonderful things.36:47 DS: No. I know.36:48 AW: So wrapping this up, course correcting. To summarize, I guess I would say it's something you absolutely have to consider. Yeah, sometimes you just gotta cut bait, or as we talked about, you have to investigate enough to know like, "Do I need to put more into this as one last effort?" Because you just, if you have the feeling or you have the data that tells you, "This isn't going the right way. It's just not that used. It's not making me more margin, or more top line revenue." Those are all the wrong signals you want out of adding to your solution.37:24 DS: Yeah, so knowing that trying to predict it in advance, of course, is the best course of action. If you can definitely identify whether or not this feature is gonna provide value. And I think it's, the lesson for me is to invest more time investigating these features before I give them the go ahead and then, but I do feel like, "Hey, I caught this one and it's time to course correct and cut our losses on it and move forward so the team can focus on other things and we can save those costs, because it's not actually doing anything beneficial to the business."37:53 AW: Yep. You gotta have the backbone to do it when you realize it's not there, and sometimes some things just have to be cut and shut down and you move on, and then just as you're outlining, post mortem you learn. And I'm a big fan. I use this statement all the time like, "Being proactive is an investment in your business, so more research, more listening, more vetting, asking people what they pay for that feature, taking the right steps to validate, that's an investment and everything you do reactively is an expense." So when you're still trying to deliver it, when you're trying to make it work for people, when you're ignoring the fact that no one likes it or is using it, and it's causing roadblocks to other things, like you're getting the bill on that in more than just dollars. It's time, it's everything else.38:42 DS: Yep, 100%.38:44 AW: Alright. Well, maybe on the next episode I'll let you know if I decided to redo this report or if I just stayed with it, but boy, I sure feel like, especially talking out loud with this, I need to course correct and go do it the right way and go from there.38:58 DS: I'm curious, yeah. I'd love to hear it next time we talk, what you decide to do.39:03 AW: Okay. My goal is to have that solved, not eat any more gas station cookies, eat more salads like you, and then I should be in good shape in two or three weeks when we talk again.39:14 DS: Yeah, looking good, feeling good. [chuckle] Sounds good.39:19 AW: Alright. Anything in closing, Darren, you wanna share? Anything you're looking forward to, or anything coming up in the next few weeks? 39:24 DS: Oh, sure, yeah, there's one big thing. I presented it at the Summit, is our local search ranking factors survey results. So I basically hacked together a presentation last minute so I can present. But the full publication's coming out. So I'm looking forward to launching that, and then also measuring the marketing impact of that as well. It's a pretty big resource in our industry, and so it'll be interesting to see what kind of business that drives.39:50 AW: Yeah, as a sub-point, maybe something we talk about as a focus in an episode like I think sharing and using data as inbound marketing and as content people want is massive, and you do such a great job with that and having the local search ranking factors is massive. Those are the kind of things that attract dozens or hundreds of links and mentions.40:15 DS: Yep. It's massive.40:17 AW: Yeah, over and over and over again and that's something we should probably talk about sometime. I think a lot of people miss the boat on that, just how much data, surveys, expert surveys, things like that, can just really fuel what you're doing for your inbound marketing, so let's mark that down for another topic.40:35 DS: Yeah, and I don't do it directly to make money. I think that there is a money-making benefit, but I just wanna clarify. I do it 'cause I love it. It's like the local search ranking factors is a labor of love and publishing it, I'm sure it definitely impacts business, but I would do it anyways.40:51 AW: There you go.40:52 DS: It's just what I love to do.40:54 AW: Even better when you love doing it.40:55 DS: That's right. Alright, thanks, Aaron.40:58 AW: Yeah, great to catch up. Everyone, thanks as always for listening. We always appreciate if you reach out with any topic ideas via Twitter or via thesaasventure.com, and if you get the opportunity and we're living up to our end of the deal of giving you valuable content, please leave us a review in iTunes to help others find the SaaS Venture podcast as well. So with that until we talk again hopefully in the next two to three weeks, sound good? 41:25 DS: Sounds good.41:25 AW: Alright, thanks Darren and thanks everyone. We'll talk to you soon.41:29 DS: Thanks Aaron. Thanks everyone.[music]

FULL SHOW NOTES:[INTRO music]00:10 Aaron Weiche: Episode 20, Big Launches and Big Challenges.00:16 Intro: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. Sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins and losses, shared in each episode, from Aaron Weiche of GatherUp and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]00:42 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. I'm Aaron.00:42 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.00:45 AW: And we are back in front of the mic and ready to catch up on... It's been about a month since we've connected, and we definitely have plenty to talk about and catch people up on. But I thought a great place to start... Just from some of the things that we've been talking about regarding Whitespark and some of the things on your plate. I definitely wanna hear about your big launch that you've recently had with the Local Citation Finder and get the nitty-gritty details on that.01:21 DS: I know, it's exciting times. It's been really weird, actually. We haven't talked for a month, I think, 'cause we're both really busy. Kind of in a reactionary mode. With all this COVID business there is so much going on and everyone's trying to do their best to launch some stuff and put stuff out there. So yeah, feels like its been a while since we talked. Oh, yeah. Can't wait to talk about the launch of the LCF? But I guess before we get in there, I just... How are things going, what's going on with you at GatherUp? 01:47 AW: Yeah, well, we can get to some of that. I'm more of the big challenge part. We had a challenging week last week with a little bit of a reduction in staff. A few off of my team and that was incredibly difficult. And talk about, I guess, some of the more difficult parts of that, but within this, it's no different than a lot of businesses. There's hard decisions that have had to be made just based on so many aspects of what's going on in the economy and how it affects when you primarily serve small and medium-sized businesses and, in some industries, they've been so susceptible and have their doors shut and not had a way to even adjust, or if they have adjust, it's been a much, much different look to their business so that was definitely really difficult. We've seen some things leveled out from what April looked like as far as that first wave of panic churn.02:50 DS: Yeah, totally.02:50 AW: Yeah that kinda kicked in. And now we're just seeing stragglers in some of those situations from what's there. So just kinda adapting with that. But everything on the homefront is good. Everybody's healthy and the weather's been nicer. So we're getting outside more and just grateful for all of those aspects, and we've done a pretty good job of just shifting the... What we're happy with instead of what is different or what we're missing out on and things like that.03:20 DS: Yeah, right.03:21 AW: What about you? 03:23 DS: Yeah, so everything is going alright here. I've always worked from home. So it's not a huge shift for me in terms of my work and family life. It's not that much different. Just not seeing, not socializing as much really. And we had a bit of a health scare at the beginning of this, we were all worried that we had it. So we had to do some distancing in the house, but we've come out of that and everyone's healthy again. And so, we still don't know actually if we did have it. Even though we got tested. Apparently, we hear all the... All the tests are somewhat unreliable, especially if you're only carrying a small viral load. So we don't know if we have it. We're interested to get the antiviral test, but because of that, we're extra sensitized. And so, we're not seeing anybody. We get everything delivered. We sanitize everything that comes in the house. We're just really playing it safe now for two reasons. One, we had a bit of a scare and was like, "Well, we don't wanna mess with it." And two, we don't know if we're carriers now and so we're extra careful around other people too, right? So we had that, but gosh, now that that's over, it's so nice to just be back to living our quarantine lifestyle.04:35 DS: I spend a lot of extra time together, really connecting with my daughter these days. We all have really fun play time every night after dinner. So, family life has been good and the business has been surprisingly good too. We had a real big scare in at the end of... End of March, it was getting kinda bad. Lots of cancellations. And so it was like, wow, not looking good, and so we had to make a bunch of hard decisions. Similar to you. We did a few lay offs and we reduced hours across the team. And some of that was defensive planning for what was to come, but in the end, April actually turned out okay for us. So our revenue started to climb back up. We launched a new Yext service, which is Yext replacement service which was well received, and then we launched the new Local Citation Finder. So yeah, it's all been going back in the other direction. So we've brought our team, many of our team members back up to full-time hours and we're forging ahead with a lot of stuff. The business is starting to come out of it looking healthy, too.05:38 AW: Nice, that's good to hear. I feel like, on a sales and new business side, that has been... Was really, really quiet and I feel like in the last week or two, we've started to see more of a pulse there, which I'm...05:51 DS: Same, yeah.05:52 AW: Excited about so.05:53 DS: Yeah, like the last two weeks. It really starts to feel like the sense that people are... There was this panic mode at the beginning, everyone's getting defensive, cutting expenses 'cause they don't know what's gonna come, but now they're like, "Okay, well, it's been like this. I think we're kinda getting used to this, and we still have to build a business. So what are the ways we're gonna do that," and then... We both run marketing technology companies, so they start looking to us, and so leads are starting to come back in again.06:20 AW: Yeah. Awesome, let's...06:21 DS: Yeah.06:22 AW: Hope that continues. Ride that wave back up.06:25 DS: Yeah, definitely. What are some of the things you've been doing at GatherUp? What are some of your offensive strategies that you've been working on? 06:34 AW: The one thing that we've really gotten into is we just double down really heavy on content. I finally got it kind of pulled into a thought process the other day, but we were on a call and talking about shipping product, and the importance of that, and things like that. And I was like, "Well, I think what we're doing, we're just shipping strategy right now," because we have a really robust feature set. And sometimes with that, there's just a lot of elements to it where people don't understand all of the pieces, or how to string 'em together, or how to best utilize the features.07:15 AW: And I've found it almost cathartic to be writing and pouring myself into teaching. So, a lot of strategy type blog posts, and execution, and webinars. We had you on a local AMA we did. You, and I, and Joy Hawkins, and Mike Blumenthal. Yeah, really great. And we have our monthly customer webinars, and we had our agency webinar. So, we've just really gone all out with sharing things that, with not doing as much outbound, without as many demos things, like that where it's like let's just give people as much education as we can and try to help them through it to do the best that they can and for their business. So...08:00 DS: Yeah, I've seen really great content coming out from you guys lately. It makes me be a bit jealous, we're a bit quiet on the content front. You're like, "Okay, we've got all these great features, let's focus on content." [chuckle] We're like, "Oh, we got a good content list, let's get some new features launched." Yeah.08:15 AW: Yeah. Yeah, it's that's really it. That's not to say, I still have one heck of a wishlist.08:22 DS: Yeah. No, I agree.08:22 AW: And keeping those things moving forward, but it just definitely felt like for, especially for our customers, we wanna help you, we wanna make it through this together, 'cause if they don't make it, we're not gonna make it kind of deal. So, how do we help them understand how to best use our tool, even come up with different ways. Like one of the things that I like the most that I'm trying to get myself on some other podcasts and find some other ways to talk about is a post about just reopening during COVID, and just how important it is to have these tight cycles of you're making changes, you have new guidelines, and safety guidelines, and new ways that you're selling. You need really tight feedback loops to understand if what you're doing is actually building trust and confidence in the consumer and they will continue to come back, because...09:19 DS: Your content strategy there, it's so smart to really get into that, because people, as they start seeing this, and then it's sometimes they may not even be on your mailing list, but they're a customer, and they happen to see something on Twitter or something, 'cause it gets shared, all that stuff. So, it's really great to be bringing them back and thinking about the product.09:38 AW: Yeah. And like I said, it's been a good, just a great way to focus. And it's one of those things, it's nice when you get into it and you're able to write these things and string so many ways that you can use the platform and go deep and whatever else. And if anything it's just really renewed my love of what we've built, and how it works, and the potential it has, and everything else. So, that part of it has been a good grounding, gratitude, exciting, all of those things. Even though I love it much more if I'm talking to people about it on sales calls, that is a greater level of excitement than just riding out into the great wide open, but it has been great to help customers and then hear from them after our webinars or have them mail and say, "Thanks, this is something very tangible that I could use. I am using it. This opened my eyes." It's great to see things like that.10:33 DS: Yeah, totally. Yeah, awesome. Good job. Yeah, I actually saw a thing today, I don't know if we're both members of that, Aaron Kralls' SaaS Growth Hacks Facebook Group. [chuckle]10:45 AW: Yup.10:45 DS: And he posted this thing today, which I immediately talked to my marketing manager about, which was he's got this indefinite email follow-up sequence for anyone that has tried the software or used it and cancelled, anyone that has a free trial but they never converted. And it's exactly what you're talking about, it's like this sort of discussing all of the features. And it's just like you lay out this sequence that runs for indefinitely where it's like every month, there's a new email about this feature of the tool where you're really communicating that. And so, that's the kind of stuff like, man, we are not doing that and I would love to get into some of that. I could see the value there.11:25 AW: Very cool. If we get to the end of this and we haven't crushed all of our time, I wanna share something that just, it's been going on for a little bit, but I finally paid attention to it today, and it blew my mind. So...11:38 DS: Oh. Okay, well, I'll talk really fast then.11:41 AW: Yeah. [chuckle]11:41 DS: 'Cause I wanna hear that. [chuckle]11:44 AW: Alright, cool. Well, hey, let's dive in. I was really excited to see and also support, retweeting, and Facebook liking, and everything else the launch of the Local Citation Finder. And I also really enjoyed too, one of our listeners to the podcast, Chris McCarney from Sydney, Australia chimed in and basically said, "It only took two weeks."[chuckle]12:13 DS: That is awesome, yeah.12:16 AW: Yeah. I thought that was great. Shows Chris is a long time and a dedicated listener. And obviously the joke Darren has talked about a lot of times is he always, your comments always, "Just two more weeks, two more weeks, and we'll get that done." So, that was really fun to have one of our podcast listeners weigh in on the launch of Local Citation Finder...12:38 DS: That was awesome. Yeah, thanks, Greg.12:40 AW: Yeah.12:40 DS: The two weeks thing is so bizarre really, when I think about it because this project, launching the new LCF has been on our radar for at least two years. And the actual development spend was at least two years long. It took many different twists and turns along the way to get to where the final product was that we've launched. But, honest to God, I swear to you, in our initial conversation with the dev team when we were looking at the original scope. I was like, "How long do you guys think this is gonna take?" I swear to God they told me two weeks.[laughter]13:12 DS: It was because the original version was just supposed to be really basic feature parity. It was because the Local Citation Finder was running on an old development stack. It was on an other server. We had to keep it on a different server because it had an old version of MySQL, but our new software was using the new version and it wasn't compatible. So the first version was supposed to be like, "Okay, well, let's make these changes to the code so that we can put everything on our more powerful server and keep all of our development stack up-to-date, right?" 'Cause we're actually running into problems 'cause we're maintaining two development stacks, which was totally annoying. And so honestly, it was like, "Okay, great. We'll do that in two weeks. No problem." Once you get into that, you really start to think about it and like, I'm the worst... The two weeks thing is absolutely my fault because I get greedy. I'm like, "Ooh well, if you guys are working on it, maybe we can just make these few little tweaks, too, while we're at it."14:15 DS: And the few little tweaks evolve into a massively new feature set, and a whole new design, and overhaul it. And by the time we even get that stuff done, we got a new development stack we gotta put it on to. So it's like... That's how it just tends to evolve. It's just really hard for me to hold back on the improvements. Once I just start looking at them, I'm like, " Oh, you know, this tool really needs this or it needs that." And so that's basically what happens.14:43 AW: Well, that balance of quality and speed is always a tough thing. I fight it as well. I love though... You just have coined a phrase for it now, right? I feel like, in your company meetings, the minute someone says two weeks, alarms should go off, and...14:58 DS: Absolutely. There should be an actual siren and bell. Yeah.15:03 AW: Yeah.[laughter]15:04 DS: Yeah, totally.15:05 AW: But... So here's one thing I really loved here, and just to give people... And we'll link to this in our show notes. But your post on the release, this was, to me, just so interesting. This was actually the first piece of SaaS software that you built 10 years ago because you really were just a super small, couple person web development SEO firm, and then you got the idea to build the Local Citation Finder, and here you are majorly relaunching it. I'm sure you've probably added, Band-Aided, done whatever else, but this was probably its first overhaul in almost a decade.15:41 DS: Yeah. As a complete overhaul, this is it. It's been a decade. And I look back at that post, it was kind of sentimental. I'm like, "Oh man, this is the software that built the company." There was a major turning point for Whitespark because we were just an agency building websites and doing SEO for clients, and we only had three developers at the time. We only had three employees. It was me, Ethan, and Jeff, I think, at that time. And so, I read a post from Garrett French, and I was like, "Ah, that's a cool idea." And Jeff turned out the first version of this in three days. I should go actually use three days as our new timeline. [chuckle] I'll just keep referencing and be like, "How long is that gonna take, guys?" And they'll be like, "Oh, two weeks." I'll be like, "Well, you know, Jeff built the first version of the Local Citation Finder in three days," [chuckle] see if I can push them on that.16:33 DS: But yeah, we launched it in three days and it was really simple. It was just like, you put in keyword, the tool runs, and then it sends you an email with some data. And so that first version... But people really loved it, and then we thought, "Well, we could turn that into some real software and put a subscription model on it," and we did. And that was our sort of first foray into SaaS, which it's been 10 years now. So today, we have a whole new version of it, and gosh, I just love it now. It's the local citation finder I always dreamt of having. And I'm sure I'll hate it again in a year 'cause there'll be new stuff I wanna do. That's always the way it is.17:15 AW: Yeah. Well, you just always raise your standards, know a little more, and things continue to evolve. I also love that you're able to go back just in when this was released, right? And McGee a friend of both of ours, had... Long-time SEO and used to be editor at Search Engine Land. He had wrote that this was a must-have tool, right, back in 2010. So it was like, you had your own personal Wayback Machine in this blog post that existed 10 years ago.17:45 DS: Yeah, his post is still up. It's amazing. I can't believe that it's still live on the Internet. So that was great. [laughter] And actually... And then, I guess, Matt talking about it, and I remember having a phone call with David Mihm, and it was like... Garrett French set it up 'cause I think he talked to Garrett... David talked to Garrett first. I think they knew each other. And then Garrett said, "Oh, David Mihm would like to have a call with you." And I was like, "Oh my God, David Mihm wants to talk to me?" And I was so excited about it. And so, yeah, then I guess really it drove all these relationships and getting to know all the Local U guys. And yeah, it really just grew from there.18:25 AW: Yeah. Isn't it funny how all those things come together in one way or another? 18:29 DS: Yeah, totally.18:30 AW: I would say Mihm was definitely the main connector. He was my... I wouldn't have my relationship with Mike Blumenthal without David, Mike Ramsey without it. David was just a connector in our industry.18:44 DS: Yeah. I remember meeting you and Ed Reese at a Local U. And that was the first time I met you, and we hung out and had some drinks, and got to know each other, and yeah. It's all kinda grown from there.18:56 AW: So you can blame Local U you for bringing me into your life.19:00 DS: Oh, blame. Thank you. [laughter] Oh, I'll thank Local U. Much gratitude to Local U.19:06 AW: So with the launch... We're getting off track here, which is normal, but I'm interested... With the launch of Local Citation Finder, what was your... I wanna know what was both your customer base reaction, what stood out the most to them, and then what did you see in new opportunity, the excitement around the launch of it? 19:29 DS: Yeah, so it was really well received, for sure. So... There's a few really big improvements that we made, number one, the new design, the old tool looked like it was built in 2010, and the new tool looks like it was built in 2020, so it really does look awesome, it's got great visuals, it's fast, it's easy to use, it feels good to use, and that's a huge thing. And I have to shout out to Nick [19:55] ____ for really helping with that. He's got a great eye for design, he's really good about thinking about how the user will interact with this stuff. And so, he's our UI UX design guy and he did such a phenomenal job on the Local Citation Finder, just really thrilled with it. So that was one massive thing. People love that.20:13 DS: It's now also campaign focused. In the old version of the software, you just run these searches and they felt so like, "Okay, I ran a search, I got my data. Why do I keep paying for this tool? I don't need it any more, right?" So the new version of the tool is really... It provides ongoing value on a weekly basis, so it really drives you to create a campaign for each of your locations and then every week you're gonna get an update of like, "Hey we found these new citations for you", so it helps you to sort of monitor your citation growth over time and it also helps you define new opportunities because we're gonna search all of your competitors and find what they have and then report that back to you. And so you're getting this ongoing value from the tool, it keeps feeding you value every week. So that was designed to prevent churn because, man, this tool had terrible churn. We were on a long path of dropping subscriptions, more subscriptions dropping than coming in, and so it was really designed to reverse that.21:15 DS: Another big thing that we did was submitability. So people that use this software are really just looking for good citation directories to submit to. And so now we automatically identify whether or not you can submit to the site if it's just an easy one to submit to and we sort by that and so, you're immediately presented with actionable opportunities rather than just a bunch of weird sites like a directory of dishwasher parts, which uses a list of Part IDs and that ended up getting into your results or competitor's websites or blogs or newspapers, you can't just go and easily add your business to. It's still good to see that 'cause you can see your... "Oh wow, my competitor got a mention on this newspaper. Maybe I could too." But it's not actionable, immediately. So sorting by submit ability has been a really great feature, good filtering, new charts, new designs. So people were pretty damn happy about it.22:11 DS: I think that lots of people were excited to promote our number one fan Susan [22:16] ____, she was all over the place, all over Twitter, talking about how great it is, so thanks Susan, she's really been awesome. Also got great feedback on LinkedIn. I don't know, you do much on LinkedIn, but I've been trying to get more engaged over there and...22:33 AW: Yeah, I do, I've always... I call LinkedIn slow Twitter and I realized Twitter isn't for everyone because of the amount of info and how fast-paced but I, interesting enough see people use LinkedIn almost as their Twitter but it's more like somebody that wants to once a week put something out there or be connected, but that's really interesting that you got good play from there.23:03 DS: I got really good play from LinkedIn and my own post on LinkedIn drove quite a lot of interest but the real big kicker was Rand [23:13] ____ shared it from my post over to his feed on LinkedIn which was massively kind of him. So thank you so much to Rand for doing that because it drove a ton of interest, lots of comments, and so I was like, "Man, I'm really starting to think about LinkedIn and so I've been working over the past two to three months, I'm building up my following there and being more engaged and posting more often, and I just think it's a really great platform especially for us as B2B SaaS companies. It's just that's where everybody is, right? 23:44 DS: And so the nice thing about it is that it's so unsaturated like you post something on Twitter, it's gone forever, in three hours, no one's gonna see it again, right? You post something on LinkedIn and it's like that person that only logs into LinkedIn once every two weeks, it's the first thing they see on their feed 'cause there's not a fire hose of other stuff getting posed it over there, right? So it really has longevity. This whole concept of slow Twitter is for real because your posts stay up there and they really get massive visibility. Lots of people see it. So yeah I think LinkedIn is an untapped market for a lot of people, and I'm trying to drive more of that.24:23 AW: Yeah, and it is. So that's been one of the other things inside of our shipping strategy is we're creating more content, more things for people to talk about and just really look at like mentions are your best marketing. It's a great way to be relevant and same kind of things? Mike Blumenthal did a great post for us on review ratings from a bunch of data inside of GatherUp from our monitoring, and it was in Moz's Top 10 email of [24:52] ____ and it shared a bunch of places. To me, it's like when you get the amplification of other people grabbing it and then writing about it in their own words, not just retweeting it, that's where you see a really nice take-off and working into their spheres and stuff.25:11 DS: Yeah, it's amazing actually the difference between a basic retweet and a retweet where you add a comment and you talk about what is your take on this thing, that really seems to have a much better impact in terms of traction that you'll get off of your content.25:29 AW: Totally agree. So I'm interested, your switch from search to campaigns as part of it. Was that something that... Did you realize that a long time ago? Did you realize that while you were building it? Was that the reason you built it? Was it a customer who suggested it? Where did that come from? Because it seems like a pretty huge opportunity and swing.25:55 DS: Yeah, I was aware of it when we started doing the... When the development need came up because the stack was holding us back. That's when I was like, "Listen, if we're gonna do this, can we make some of these changes?" And then they're like, "Okay well, it's not gonna be two weeks anymore, it's gonna be two months." Which, of course was also a way underestimate. But we... I definitely came up with that, at that point because it was like... I've always known that, I've always been thinking about our local citation finder churn and realized that that was the problem and realized that that was the solution too, providing that ongoing value. And so it was when we started getting into it and that was sort of the main thing that I added as a feature request in addition to just a stack update, right? And then it grew from there, then of course, more features came out of it, right? 26:46 AW: Yeah, awesome.26:47 DS: Yeah, that's where it came from. Yeah. But honestly, it's like the way we approach this stuff has been a bit of a lesson and we did this... We made the same mistake with our rank tracker update. We took two, three years to get that thing out the door and it's because we don't let it progress in phases. We could have actually launched an improved LCF on a better tech stack, so it would have been faster, the customer would not have noticed the difference. And then we could have launched a campaign-based focus by just tweaking it a little bit and that would have been another marketing opportunity. Then we could have been like, "Look at this, folks, new design." We just like, splashy new design, everyone will be happy." Then we could have added submitability. So all the stuff that we added to the Local Citation Finder and the reason it took two years to get out the door... We could have done that in stages and every single one of those stages would have been another marketing opportunity.27:41 DS: So I really feel like it's a bit of a failure in our process, and it's something that I'm trying to become keenly aware of, and we're looking at it with our next stuff that we're working on here and we're like, "What is the absolute bare minimum? Let's get that out the door." Then we just keep adding to it. So it's like, "Well, I would love to give you this point." We use a project management software system called 'ClickUp' and every week they are pushing out updates. That's the way to do it. It's like, "Don't throw in 10,000 feature updates, and then launch one massive thing in a year. Every week, have more new stuff to promote and just keep iterating on a regular basis." And so, we're really... I'm really cognitive of that and really shifting to that mindset with stuff that we do going forward.28:26 AW: Yeah. Now that... Yeah, my reaction is, "Yep, that is way too long of a cycle." I probably... I don't know, I look at it, "What can we have out the door in 90-120 days?" And there's definitely been some things that we've done that have taken longer. A lot of times it's not actually... You have to look at it, it's not like engineering, it's more in the planning, design, gathering requirements, all of that decision-making where things can kinda stall out, fall flat, you hit a roadblock and you gotta figure your way out around it. But the exact thing you're pointing out, we definitely did that, and it was a bit of an eye-opener for me on our last bigger feature social sharing, where it turns reviews into a visual image where we basically said, like, "Alright, we're gonna get this out the door and this is where we're limiting V1 of it."29:25 AW: And then, 45, 60 days later, then we launched... So we launched it with integrations with Facebook and Google posts, and it was also creating LinkedIn and Twitter images that you could download and then post. And then we knew we were gonna do a Twitter integration, and then we got initial user feedback, and people wanted a cropping tool and we added some font size modification. So, then we had like this second update to it where we'd say, "And now it connects to Twitter and now you can manipulate the image more." And yeah, you get those marketing bursts out of it, and you also get it in the hands of your users, so they can be like, "Oh, I wish it had this," or...30:05 DS: Exactly, yeah.30:05 AW: This would be helpful or nice, so...30:06 DS: Yeah, totally, so, absolutely. It's the way that we're really trying to make sure that we progress in that format. In fact, last week, we had a call about the new big thing that we're working on and we stripped it back. We're like, "Actually, you know what, this is two things, this is not one thing. What is the MVP that we need for this thing that we're building?" And we actually... We're now stripping stuff out of the product that we've been building and so we're gonna just leave that in a separate branch. We're creating a new branch, and then we'll pull it back in later, because that stuff's almost done, but I know that that other piece of it is gonna slow us down by weeks if we decide to include it into this phase one launch. So the actual workload is cleaner because we can get everyone focused on the main core thing that we're trying to build, and then we get everyone focused on that next thing. And then everyone focus on that next thing rather than splitting the team and slowing things down. So it's gonna be way better.31:05 AW: Yeah, heck yeah, that's awesome. And that's what's great when you go through these and you have those learnings and it's just all about, "How can we get better the next time? What stood out to us?" All of those kind of... And that's a fun in it too. It can be frustrating in the moment, or when you're like, "Oh, this should have been obvious." But it is so great to learn on the fly like that and then you get to try it all over again, and be better the next time.31:36 DS: Yeah, it's amazing actually. It's just like this constant growth of both what we know and how we approach the development of things that we're learning, and growth of the company, growth of the software, growth of the user base. It's all pretty good. Man, I'm glad to be in SaaS.31:52 AW: Nice. Good work. Well, congrats on the big launch.31:57 DS: Yeah, thanks. It's been really successful too. It's like our goal to reduce the churn has definitely happened. So, since the whole COVID thing started, we dropped about 12% of our subscriptions. In just over two weeks of the launch, we're almost back to parity now and we're not really seeing the churn anymore. And so, I think we've reversed that and it's not just reversing the COVID losses, we've kind of reversed the losses from the last couple of years. And I expect to continue on a growth path now too, where we can kind of get back to the peak of our subscriptions and then go beyond that. I'm excited about it.32:38 AW: That's awesome, I'm excited for you...32:40 DS: Thanks.32:40 AW: Way to go.32:41 DS: Yeah, thanks.32:42 AW: Also, the other part of this, for me, no big launch since we last talked. Some nice, little ones, but obviously facing a big challenge with what we had to do regarding the reduction of staff. And the hard part with this is right in running, owning, operating, being in leadership in businesses for 20 years, I've never had to do something like this. It's always... If you had to let someone go, it's been performance-based. And you've already... It's a clear decision. And you've already tried to help that person. You've tried to create a framework to turn it around and succeed, and it just didn't work out. But this was just like it was so much different because it was purely a role-based activity, where as like what roles are critical to the business, what ones do we have a room for as we navigate through this, what will help add to the bottomline, retain customers, things like that, and that part being really difficult to go through. And, obviously, the hardest part of all of it... I don't wanna minimize, right? The hardest part of all of it was for the people who were furloughed and let go, right? 34:04 AW: And that sits with you hard because you realize, "I'm about to be part of putting stress on to people who... Let's face it. A lot of us are already stressed through this." So that part, not fun to think about. All of those elements to it. I will say, one, I feel like Traject took good care of those between furloughs and those who were laid off as far as taking care of them moving forward and super reasonable timeline on benefits and things like that. I felt like a really stand-up job was done there to take care of them. And really good communication with the team as far as why and the difficulty and everything else. But you can see the difficulty and how people feel. Like just today, I put in a note because Monday is Memorial Day, so US employees will be off at... That's when we normally have our team standoff or stand-up. And I put out a note just saying like, "Hey, let's just do a quick connect on Tuesday for stand-up and whatever else."35:15 AW: And I had a couple of people message me, and they're like, "Is this a good meeting?" They're apprehensive of a meeting also, right, because of what had took place last week. And I was like... I immediately just went and added onto my thing, it's like, "Hey, this is our normal stand-up. It's all good vibes," and whatever happy emojis that I could quickly find to put on there. But it was just such a... Emotionally, it was very difficult 'cause, one, when you build a company from scratch, we, GatherUp definitely built a family culture. So it feels like we had to put a couple of people, who are our family, off to the side and that was really hard. And then... Personally, the worst part was we eliminated the role of my head designer. And he has been with me at three different companies. We've worked together nearly 12 years like he...36:13 DS: Oh, man.36:14 AW: Yeah. My kids know him. And it was hard. And it's that... You definitely hear stories over time that there are people, right? You work with friends or you develop close friendships, and something goes wrong, or the friend leaves, right? I've seen all of those sides, but I've definitely never had to lay off a friend. And it was...36:35 DS: That's so tough.36:36 AW: Yeah. It was gut-wrenching. And it was one of the first times where I'm usually... I'm able to find the mode that's needed in those moments, where I'm both able to communicate, but still have the emotional side and not be robotic and understand the gravity of the situation. But this one, right, it was myself and our CEO that did the call with him. And I just pretty much was on the call to cry. I mean, I just cried. And it was just this feeling of helplessness and partially feeling like... I felt like I was letting him down as a leader and a friend, and just sad for the circumstance, right? I can't control COVID. I can't control the economy. All these things, I can't control. But it just... It felt horrible.37:32 DS: Yeah. That's gut-wrenching. That's really tough when those decisions have to be made about positions like that, especially when you have such a close relationship with one of these colleagues you've worked with for 12 years, you know? 37:45 AW: Yeah.37:47 DS: Really sorry, man.37:47 AW: Yeah. Thanks. But I will say, all of the people I dealt with that were impacted, all it did is prove why they were on our team. They were professional. They had their heads up. They understand the situation. They're either furloughed and cheering us on so that we can get them back or they're grateful for what took place and excited for the next thing, right? And to me, that just instantly was like, "This is exactly why I've worked with you for so long because of how you handled this and everything else." It's been hard. It leaves... Again, it leaves holes in the family. Our meetings haven't been the same just because of how those people connect, who brings the jokes, who has the music, all of those different things, so.38:35 DS: Yeah. We've had similar feelings with some of the layoffs we've had in here, too. It's always tough, right? They leave those holes on the team, right? 38:43 AW: Yeah.38:44 DS: We're hoping to rebuild and get some of those team members back in the next month or two, too. That's what we're working towards.38:52 AW: And it's just when you're used to, for so long, creating opportunities and when you're on the other end of where you feel like you're taking away an opportunity, that's just really heavy stuff. And then, lastly, at the same time, right, it just made me realize how much I care about our team and how I wanna work tirelessly so that no one else is affected like this, right? I had thoughts like, "What if I leave and so other people can stay," and things like that. And you ultimately, I arrived at I trust myself more than anyone else to get us through this and I will do whatever it takes to do that, and so I need to do that.39:38 DS: Yeah, I feel the same. Some of my team, they did reduce hours and I feel like I took on a lot of those extra hours. I've been working way more than usual trying to... I guess, initially it was save the company mode, and now it's just driving all these initiatives forward. Some of the team members are still on reduced hours and so it creates a lot of extra load like to get all the things done that we're trying to do, right? I'm just really pushing extra hard right now.40:08 AW: Yeah, I'm right with you.40:09 DS: What was the cool thing? 40:10 AW: Alright. Yeah. Are you a follower or have you ever paid attention to Gary Vaynerchuk at all? 40:19 DS: Not a follower. I know who he is. I've seen some of his stuff. Yeah, he's a little too intense for me. I think that Gary.[laughter]40:29 AW: Well, I mean, that's easy to see. So obviously, if you don't know who Gary Vaynerchuk or Gary V is, long-time entrepreneur and super early adopter of social media. That's how I came across him was I don't know eight, nine, 10 years ago when he was doing Wine Library TV. He actually spoken in a really cool event that used to take place in Omaha called Big Omaha. It was almost like a mini-South by South West and he did a show live there. I got to speak at another event, where he spoke at, so I got to meet him for 30 seconds. Talk to him real quick. But anyway, just a high-level engager in whatever else. Well, he's rolled out a new service, as part of his wine business, he also owns a massive agency, too, called Veiner Media. But it's winetext.com and all you basically do, it's a one-page site and since Gary is so well-known, has an audience, has been selling wine forever.41:30 DS: He can sell anything, that guy.41:32 AW: Yeah. There's a 45-60 second YouTube video, and all you do on that page is enter in your email, your cellphone, where you would ship wine to and your credit card information. And then what they do is they text you every day with the deal of the day, and then if you wanna buy it, you just reply with like, "Four bottles," and they ship it.41:54 DS: Oh. Wow. Wow, that's so easy.41:57 AW: It's so easy...41:57 DS: All the impulse buying, you've just tapped into that impulse buy. Wow.42:03 AW: Yeah, it's so basic, but it takes having that audience. You have to have something to go with it to have an instant boost. But I was like, "Alright, let's talk about removing purchase barriers." Where here it's like, alright, if I spend two minutes and enter all of my shipping payment and contact info, now any time I wanna buy... I'm giving you permission to send me a daily deal and all I have to do is reply with a number, and the bottles are gonna show up. I don't have to enter payment, I don't have to click on anything.42:40 DS: [42:40] ____ and you type that shit again just reply to a text. I love it, it's amazing.42:46 AW: Yeah. Yeah. No, it totally... It blew my mind, and it got me thinking of things like, especially thinking the restaurant industry right now and how different it is, and whatever else. What if a restaurant just created, here's our meal for the day, and you just responded with, "Yeah, I want three of those. It's enchilada's tonight? Yeah, I want three of them." And that was your ordering without all the other stuff, right? Yeah, I get there's a lot of complexities, but it just...43:16 DS: Yeah, totally the menu. You just basically use... You register on the site, and then we'll send you the Friday Special. And be like, "Do you want the Friday special?" The person's like, "Yes, I do." And then it just shows up.43:29 AW: Yeah, so it was just one of those I had seen tweets where he was talking about it and whatever else, and I never clicked in it. For some reason this morning, I was up working super early and clicked on it at some point this morning, and within taking it in, I was just like, "This is brilliant."43:49 DS: It really is.43:49 AW: This is a whole different way to do business, and it got my wheels turning big time.43:56 DS: No, I'm gonna do it actually as soon as we get off this call. I'm gonna go through our accounts database, and I'm gonna text every one of our customers and be like, "Do you wanna upgrade? Yes or no?"[laughter]44:09 DS: And then if they say yes, boom. More money in the company. Look at that.44:12 AW: Way to go, see, you're quick to adapt. That will not take two weeks; that will take two days.44:18 DS: Yeah. Exactly, two days. I'm gonna get that done, I'm gonna talk to my dev team right now, I'm gonna just sign up for one of those text services, import all the numbers, just press the button.44:27 AW: Awesome. Alright, cool, Darren, well, great to catch up. Hopefully, we'll be able to record again in sub 30 days. Congrats about 20 episode... I mean, any time we cross a round number, just things feel a lot more real. So 20 episodes, under our belt.44:45 DS: 20 episodes. Yeah, that feels like it just gets more and more real this podcast.44:51 AW: We're not a teen anymore.44:53 DS: No. Yeah, thanks a lot to all of our listeners. Keep listening, keep subscribing, keep sharing our awesome content.45:00 AW: Yeah and keep plugging in random jokes into Twitter on us.45:06 DS: It makes our day, for sure.45:09 AW: Awesome, Alright, man, well, you take care and we'll catch up, hopefully, in two, three weeks again.45:14 DS: Sounds good. Alright, thanks, Aaron.45:16 AW: See you everybody.45:18 DS: Bye everybody.[music]

FULL SHOW NOTES00:00 Aaron Weiche: Hey everyone, this next episode was recorded on March 5th, 2020, so ahead of COVID-19 and everything we are all experiencing right now. I just wanted to pop in ahead of that as we haven't published it until now in mid-April (April 15th, 2020), and didn't want the conversation, our tone, or our excitement for certain things to be taken out of context. So, thanks for listening. We hope everyone is well, and we hope to get on the other side of this soon. With that, we'll bring you the third part of "Selling GatherUp" and Darren and I will be back in a couple of weeks to give a further update on how our businesses are doing now, during COVID-19 and the pandemic.[INTRO music]00:56 AW: Episode 18, Selling GatherUp. Part three, the Transition.01:02 Speaker 2: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. Sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrap SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins and losses shared in each episode from Aaron Weiche of GatherUp and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]01:30 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture podcast. I'm Aaron.01:33 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.01:35 AW: And welcome to the month of March. Things are taking off quickly in 2020 for me. I don't know... What's that look like for you, Darren? Has the first two months of the year been a blur, or a little slow progression into the year? 01:50 DS: It's been pretty blurry. We have a lot of stuff going on right now, so yeah, it's been busy. I'm just really excited about everything that we're building right now. So it's gone by like nothing. Where'd those two months go? 02:03 AW: Yeah. Do you ever feel like you're already looking, especially at the end of this month, when you're like, "Okay, Q1 of the year is done, and now I only have nine more months to accomplish all my hopes and dreams for the year." Do you ever look at that that early and just feel like, "Oh my gosh, I'm behind the eight ball"? 02:21 DS: No, I have a really terrible sense of time, and so I always think everything is gonna... Everything, all my hopes and dreams are gonna launch in the next three weeks. That's what I always think.[laughter]02:34 DS: But then it ends up like nine months later, right? But yeah so that's kinda... I don't understand how time works and so it always takes a lot longer than I think. So I feel like we're on the cusp of launching everything and it's all just about to happen. But then there's a testing phase, and tweaking phase, and beta testing phase. So it just ends up taking a lot longer. But I just really feel like this is the year, man, all my hopes and dreams, they're just about to burst out of our email newsletter. "Oh my God, look what we launched." It's gonna happen. We've got a few things lined up. They're all really close.03:10 AW: That's awesome. I love the internal optimism too. That means all the way up until December 31st you're still like, "Yeah, we're gonna get it out there. Just wait."03:18 DS: Well, even if that rolled around on December 31st, I'd be like, "Guys, two more weeks! We're almost there."[laughter]03:24 DS: So close. You just feel perpetually like, "Ah, two more weeks." I'm always so damn excited.03:30 AW: You've definitely dropped that before in past episodes that you feel like you're always saying, "Just a couple more weeks."[laughter]03:37 DS: It's always two more weeks. It's a running joke at Whitespark, actually. Two weeks. 'Cause people ask me, "How long is that gonna take?" and by default I just say "Two weeks" now.03:46 AW: That's awesome.03:47 DS: How about you? How has it been the first couple of months of the year in the new company structure? 03:53 AW: Yeah, and that's definitely a lot of what we wanna talk about today is post-sale and what that transition's been like. In the day-to-day business realm though, it's been really good because we had so many things that almost kind of started to log jam and be on the same path at the same time towards the end of the year, and that really caused us to pause and then look at, "How do we release these in the best cadence to start the year?" So it became very much like... Alright, this is gonna happen on January 15th, this is gonna happen on January 31st, this is gonna happen on February this date. And so we're able to take three to four larger things and really map them out ahead of time, and then just a normal plan the work and then work the plan. And that went really well for us.04:48 DS: Nice.04:49 AW: Yeah, kinda all wrapped up last week with our new user management system, which is... It's really cool. This is one of those things not to... I don't wanna get too far off on a tangent with this, but when you release certain features, it's a lot of fun because they have a lot of sex appeal to them and it might be innovative or no one's doing it in a certain way and that can be really fun. And when you get into user management, this is one of those plumbing things and underlying fabrics that no one gets all that excited about it. It comes up in conversations and things like that, but it never escalates to the point where it's like, "This has to be dealt with," or "This is a must," or anything else. But last year we really started looking at things related to our user management, just because we get a lot of different set-ups and how people wanna handle it, and things like that. And for the life of our product, we basically have always had just two user types. One was the account owner, which could only be one person being the account owner, and then everyone else on the system was just a user. And then that user had, I think we had five different special permissions that would either enable or limit that user in what they could do.06:00 AW: And it was unbelievably basic, but for thousands and tens of thousands of users, it worked and it was never a big enough... There's never a big enough pain where people were like, "I just can't do this anymore." But last year we really started thinking, "How do we improve this?" One of the things that we've been asked. And we started modeling it out... It really started happening at our summit. I kind of put together a really loose structure and brought it to the team as a whole when we were face-to-face and said, "This is how I see this, this is how I think this could work and let's just start poking holes in it, and see what buy is there." And after an hour discussion, everybody was kind of like half-nodding their head like, "Yeah, yeah, I think this can work." The outcome of it, about six months of work. And it turned into a system where we created really six distinct user roles, and then inside of each role, it's an upgrade basis.06:55 AW: At the lowest end, you have a read-only, then you have a contributor, then you have a team member, so each user level steps up into what you can do. And then, to take it one step further, that type of structure isn't anything earth-shattering, but what we did inside of each role is give you a specific set of on and off toggles that allowed you to really customize the role and change it for how you wanted it to work. So, not only did you have these five, six designated roles that you can just switch someone between being an admin and a team, and that will limit or enable what you need them to do, but now I can go into the team member role and I might have 10 options that I can turn off or turn on depending upon what the default is for that role.07:42 AW: So, it literally made it limitless and it ended up being one of those things that was really cool, 'cause one, everyone on our team touched being part of building that feature, right? We wanted to know... Yeah, we wanted to know how everyone in customer success felt about it, and product, and sales, all these different angles. So, everyone had a say in it. Number two, I really felt like we built something, and I get there'd be all kinds of roadblocks based on how you've built your product and the tech stack. But I really look and I'm like, "Alright, we've built this user management, the thought process and the strategy we took with it, and this could be a product all by itself." Just in theory, if you said, "Here's a great way to solve user management between the roles you have and the amount of customizable permissions and things like that, and how easy it is to use and what the interface is." I totally think it could be its own product, it would be... It's just a utility, it's a non-sexy, marketing, none of that kind of stuff.08:41 AW: And then the last part is it touches all of our customers. When we flipped the switch on this, it changed for everyone on the same day, right? So, thousands of accounts changing over at once. And we had... I'm knocking on wood at the same time, this is over a week ago, we had a handful of small things that needed a small tweak or correction. And that was just really gratifying.09:06 DS: Well, the people in the old system, whatever the user management was, those would have just migrated over to the new system and nothing would have changed for them, right? So, yeah.09:14 AW: Yeah. We just mapped them from where they were. We just basically created a map that if you're this type of user with these two permissions, then you would become a contributor in the new user roles. But it was a very large... All of the things that had to be thought of and how things were tied in and the mapping of roles and the communication around it and how we gave early access to some of our bigger customers and did calls with them. It was just, it was a really big thing to do. And it was also a hard decision to use all the resources to do that, but I pretty much feel like now, if someone asks us to do anything with user roles and user management for the next 10 years, we can just be like, "No, it's already... Our system's well beyond anything else you're using, so we're not gonna... "09:56 DS: Yeah, yeah, you've got full control, really.09:57 AW: So, anyway, that's a very long...10:00 DS: Interesting.10:00 AW: Long-winded on that, but it was really cool to me. I was super proud of our team. I shared that with them just this week and realized this is just something non... This isn't a head turner for people, but our team actually did a really head-turning job with how they approached it, how we executed it, and how we brought it to market within the product, which is really cool.10:21 DS: Nice. Yeah, I could learn something there, I think. I often, on the software side of things, I mostly just talk to Deb about it, and sometimes we flip the switch and we're like, "To us, we don't think it's a big deal, we don't have to promote it." Just be like, "Yeah, we just launched a new feature," and we just move on with our lives. It makes the software better, right? But I think it was a great opportunity for us to get support involved, get marketing involved, really take the time to communicate it well, and get the best mileage out of it too. It's another marketing opportunity. And so, some of these little things that we... Obviously the thing you just launched wasn't a big... Wasn't a little thing, it was a huge thing, but it just makes me think about what I need to do with some of our upcoming launches, for sure.11:00 AW: Yeah. I can say, one of the most important things that we do is talking with our support and customer success team, and when we put something out there saying like, "Alright, how many different problems does this solve for you in tickets you answer, in chats you have, whatever else. And are we missing something that would really take it over the top that we should consider?" So, that's a very valuable group 'cause they're always talking to your customers.11:25 DS: Yeah, we look at that, too. I have a call every two weeks with the support team and they raise issues that are constantly recurring, people that have a complaint about this or that, and so that's how we try to prioritize a lot of the features that we launch, based off of that.11:39 AW: No, very smart move. Alright.11:41 DS: Yeah, alright. So, do you wanna talk about what it's like in the new version of GatherUp ever since you've been acquired? 11:48 AW: Yeah. I mean, mostly I wanna tie off our three-part series here, and then we can return to our normal format where you're talking as much as I'm talking, and I don't have to be put on the spot anymore, so I'm...[laughter]12:02 DS: Oh, I don't think I'll ever talk as much as you are.12:04 AW: Now you sound like my wife. [laughter] But yeah. So, just taking a look at everything after the sale, it's like we covered the why in part one, the entire process in part two. It's been really fun too. I've gotten a number of emails and tweets and LinkedIn messages of people just saying that they've enjoyed it, and looking forward to the next part in it. And that was the whole goal, that's why you and I decided to do this, is how can we bring this to light, 'cause I really felt like I was... I didn't have enough resources that I felt like applied to our situation when we were entering it and going through it, and I thought, "Well, if we can put some stuff that's out there, and I can share what was specific to ours, and some of the thinking and the emotional pieces, and that's helpful so that someone else has one more little thing to go off of in their process, then it's totally worth it.13:00 DS: Yeah, totally. These are great episodes.13:01 AW: Hopefully, they will be good for all time. So, yeah, I think a quick high-level summary and then let you pick away at some questions and see where things morph from there. But at this point, we're roughly 120 days out, so four full months out from the close of the sale. And really much of it, we're still in the transition period. Like some things have definitely started to show their path and the direction they're going and what it's gonna be like, but there's still plenty of others that are up in the air where you just haven't worked across that scenario or that situation in it yet.13:44 AW: By no means is it like, "Oh, yeah, well the transition was the first 30 days or the first 90 days." I can easily say at 120 days. Yeah, no, there's still transition that's happening in different ways, in different elements.13:58 DS: Yeah, this particular episode of the three-part series is the one that... I guess they're all super-interesting to me, but I'm really keen on this one. I'm imagining this day that if Whitespark ever sold, what would it be like? I would assume they would want me to be still in the company. And then what's it like answering to somebody else? How do they change the structure? How does the company culture change? How do you integrate with that new leadership? I'm really keen to hear about all of those things, so I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about it.14:32 AW: Cool. Well hopefully we cover all of that and then some.14:35 DS: Yeah.14:37 AW: One thing I guess... One area where I just wanna start with, it's usually the first question that people ask me after the acquisition and things like that were, did you have to stay? Right? 14:47 DS: Yeah.14:47 AW: Was it part of the purchase agreement, as it's usually referred to, golden handcuffs where you might have an earn-out. And that's very popular in deals, especially with things in service businesses, because they wanna maintain consistency.15:03 DS: Yeah.15:03 AW: So you might get X amount of the deal upfront, and then another percentage after a year, and another after two, and then maybe at three years, then you've fully have earned out what the purchase was.15:15 DS: Yeah.15:15 AW: And in our case it wasn't that at all. The deal was 100% cash at close. And two of our founders, Don and Thomas chose to roll off, and move in different directions. Don had already embedded himself in a new position working with Ford in their mobility program, so he was kind of already on a different path, with me running the company. But Mike Blumenthal and I just looked at it, and I think the biggest things is one, we just really love what we're doing, and love the product that we've created, and what it does. And the both of us to one degree or another were like, "Yeah, I wanna keep going and I wanna see what things look like on the other side of this."Specifically for me, it was, I had been given all the votes of confidence, like your plans for the product, we're not gonna mess with those. We want you to keep doing what you're doing. We would love to have you and keep running GatherUp and those kind of pieces. So all of those things were for me specific to GatherUp, felt like, "Yeah. This is what I wanna keep doing. I'm not done in what I wanted to create here, and put out into the world."16:27 DS: Yeah, I find that really surprising that a company would buy GatherUp and not wanna keep... That they didn't put that right into the contract. Like how did they feel that they have the confidence to come in here and just be like, "Okay, well cool, see you guys later. We got it here." [chuckle] How are they gonna keep everything running. I can't imagine buying the company and not locking in the primary decision-makers for a good year at least, before you can transition. It's just amazing to me. It feels like GatherUp wouldn't be as successful if all four of you had left.17:02 AW: Yeah, well, I think it would be as successful, just maybe different. Right? 17:07 DS: Yeah, it would be different for sure.17:08 AW: Yeah. And I think that's probably one of the biggest challenges through all of this stuff is like emotions. I've already talked about the emotions during the process and all of those kind of things. And there's a lot of that to this too, because you've created this, you look at it, and you have some amount of thinking to yourself like no one could do it as well as me. I have historical knowledge, and I have this feel for it, and I have all these other things. But the truth is that's not 100% true. It's true in the version of the story that you're telling, but there's also other versions of that story that could be equally successful.17:44 DS: Sure.17:44 AW: And I think in the case of Alpine Software Group, they had already purchased seven, eight other companies, consolidated a couple that were under kind of the same path of things. But they had already operated that way, where none of those founders stayed on board with it, and short transition, and then they took it over.18:04 DS: Yeah.18:05 AW: And I'm sure they look in the process and they look at what is the product, what market does it serve, what are the metrics, what are the numbers. And they look at those, and without emotion, they're able to say, "Yes, the businesses metrics are healthy. Here's what's going on." And there isn't any one person inside that company that's like making or breaking it. Are there individuals that add to it and make it more special or better, or serve it really well in a certain time frame? Absolutely. But will this product or this company die from one person being absent? No.18:39 DS: Yeah, sure. I guess I would be the same. Yeah. And then I think that probably maybe there are things that I do as the founder, that aren't as efficient as someone coming in with fresh eyes, seeing it and having a different perspective on it. So yeah, I think it's interesting. So if I was in that position to sell, would I wanna stay on, would I be required to stay on? I don't know. It's an interesting thing to think about.19:00 AW: Yeah, and at the highest levels, I would share when we were having discussions on the offer between the four of us main shareholders, between Don, Thomas, Mike and I is, at the end of the day you have to understand, no matter what, you are selling control. Right? 19:16 DS: Yeah. Totally.19:16 AW: So you're trading money for control. So if there's any part of that that doesn't sit right with you, or you want a little bit of each, it's probably not the right deal for you. Right? 19:25 DS: Sure. Yeah.19:25 AW: Or you just need to heavily structure the purchase agreement and how it's gonna move forward and everything else, so that you maintain some of that control, where maybe you don't sell all of the company that's there. You only are gonna sell them 60% of the company, or 70% or different things like that. There's a lot of different ways to make a deal. But, the way ours was presented, it was definitely gonna be either all in or all out, as far as your ownership shares. And then deciding, "Yes, I wanna stay on. And here's the role that I would see myself serving and bringing to the table and why I wanna do it."19:57 DS: Right. So okay, after you sell what... How do you start setting all this up? How do you figure out how things are gonna change? What was it like in the beginning of the first little while? 20:07 AW: Yeah, so interesting enough, at some point in time, my head started to think through the sales process, right? 'Cause at some point during the sales process, I realized when we were like 30 days out from closing, and when you would have those moments of not being emotional about it, you'd realize, "Alright, this deal is going to close."20:29 DS: Yeah.20:29 AW: So now as a leader, as someone who likes to have a plan and a strategy, I started wanting to know factually how will things be different and what will this look like and start to map some of that out. And I can easily say my mind probably moved there faster than our acquirer's mind 'cause I felt like I was asking a bunch of questions at first, that just kinda got like, "Yep, we'll get to that, we'll get to that." They were still all focused on the acquisition itself.20:57 DS: Sure.20:57 AW: And some of it... Maybe it's not normal. And they probably hadn't been around that before, especially if no one else had ever stayed on, right? 21:05 DS: Yeah, they don't have to worry about any of that.21:06 AW: Yeah. So I think there are some things with us that were a lot different that were first time that maybe they would do differently if they went back again, but there was definitely an area where things had a lot of more grey to them than what I wanted. But slowly but surely, it kind of fell into place, ended up working with the Chief Operating Officer for ASG MarTech, Alice Song. And Alice just did... She eventually kind of stepped in as my go to, to get answers from and to talk about things or at least put it in some kind of light that I could understand with it. So that was helpful in starting to map out some of the bigger things and have a good line of communication into the new owners even before it had actually take place.21:51 DS: Right.21:52 AW: Because I didn't wanna write it... It's just like, yeah, we closed the deal, and then the next day you're like, "So what do we do? How does this change?"21:58 DS: Yeah, exactly.21:58 AW: It's like... I wanted to be a little more prepared than that.22:01 DS: You had some prep work done.22:02 AW: Yeah, exactly. But one of the things that I think that ASG did really, really well is they basically set up what they called an integration day. So it was roughly about two weeks after our close, they flew our entire North American team out to Seattle, and we had a full day and a half that was structured around integrating our team with the new ASG team.22:27 DS: Right.22:27 AW: So there was a number of things in it that were really, really solid pieces that were helpful to our team across the board. One was being able to see faces, and get to meet the humans instead of just like, "Oh this entity, this company bought us, and I know none of them and everything else." So put a face on people. Which I think was really important... And especially for a remote company as well.22:53 DS: For sure.22:54 AW: And I would say our team also enjoyed. We had just had our team summit in the end of September, and here we are like six weeks later and everybody's back together again, which is...23:03 DS: Yeah, that's nice.23:04 AW: Yeah, really cool. Our team really liked that. But the format of the day they put together, it really started off with naming your fears and being able to say, "Here's what scares me about this acquisition. Here's what's stressful about it. Here's how it could affect me." And it was a very open format that I think it really opened everyone's eyes to like, "Okay, everybody here probably has some amount of fear to it or unanswered questions, or some anxieties." And making everyone feel like they're not alone in it. And these are common questions. And they're questions that we can work to answer over time.23:41 DS: Did they structure that? So when you came to this meeting, this is something that they... Do they do this with all their acquisitions? They kind of have this integration day and they have this structure for it where that's the... It's the first thing... Name your fears is the kind of thing that they kind of work through? 23:55 AW: Yeah, I can't speak for if they've done it for their all but they hire... They brought in a facilitator to lead this.24:01 DS: Oh interesting.24:02 AW: Yeah. So she came in and was the one driving the content and the exercises we were going through and some things you'd break down into a one on one, other were group things where you'd move around the room and in the center of the room was a label on the floor that said the acquisition. And she would ask a question and say like, "Hey if the acquisition heavily affects or gives you emotions around what I just stated or asked, go to the center. If it matters less to you or doesn't impact you as much, stay to the outside." So you could see where other people stood in position and then they would say, "Okay, because of where you're standing, how do you feel?"24:39 DS: Oh interesting.24:40 AW: Yeah, it was really, really interesting. And to me it was really well done. It was one of those things that instantly from the first exercise, and the way they... It was actually Alice and the facilitator when they first did it. One of the first things was just... Alice answered with very truthful, raw motion about it. And it was like it instantly set the stage, at least for me, I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I was like, "Oh this is not just gonna be corporate mumbo jumbo on this and going through the motions. This will actually be real."25:13 AW: And so, yeah, it was really well done. And then another section was just kind of creating vision for success. Helping everyone see that success in this was massively probable and that the failure while somewhat possible was very minimal in it. And so that was just really cool to get everybody seeing that, this is where this is trending so maybe by naming your fear and putting it out there and hearing others, you can put it away and move on with it.25:41 DS: Right. Now you'd assume that a company in this position that's buying other companies, they're not going to buy a company that they don't see a pretty clear vision for success and so they're able to name that and help everyone in the company see it. And from their perspective, which I think would be really valuable... It's like, "Here's where we're at now. Well, now that you're part of ASG this is where we're gonna be in the next five years." And so that could even be exciting for everyone, right? 26:07 AW: Yeah. No, absolutely. And in the case with our company, too, is like getting to meet a lot of people who might be peers to you when... So it's like gaining a whole bunch of new hires all in one day. And so you get to meet them and talk to them and find out what they deal with in their line of business and things like that. So just all around, after that day and a half, I really felt like a lot of nerves were calmed, a lot of anxiety was reduced and I think people were really excited. And the cool thing to me is it hit for people because of talking about how you personally felt and emotions, things like that. It was both well done on a personal level, but also on a professional level in seeing the success of the company and where things could go and how some of the things might work and those type of elements.26:54 AW: So it was... Like I said, it was really, really well done. I was like, "Okay, if I'm ever part of this on either side in any position ever, this concept of the integration day and what it's really about, I'm all in. I would push for that all day long.27:08 DS: Yeah. Did you all take turns like dancing around a fire and screaming at the top of your lung? Did you do any of that kind of stuff? 27:14 AW: I think at some point I might have been doing that in my mind. But I definitely didn't do it. I will say when we did the one exercise where I talked about where acquisitions in the middle and then people are walking around. And I think one of the questions was, how has this impacted or how has this impacted your life recently, or whatever else. And that was a really easy for one for me to like... I stood just right on top of it. And they're like... So alright, let's talk to some extremes and person outside the circle and then person inside, somebody right on top of it. And for me, it was like my voice cracks, I was tearing up right, 'cause in the...27:57 DS: Yeah. Truly.27:58 AW: I was present in the moment, and I was thinking about all the things that I had, I felt like I cheated my family out because of how much I've been working.28:06 DS: For sure.28:07 AW: Time lost and being present and all of those kind of things, where it was just like, it was a really emotional moment for me, so I had probably my own walk on the hot coals moment at that time, and then it subsided. That was probably a little bit of a pressure valve going off for myself.28:24 DS: Yeah, I bet, yeah. Makes sense.28:26 AW: And I think that side... The other thing to share personally, structurally company business-wise, the integration day was just really, really well done and it also made me respect ASG as a company where I was like... That's really smart, right? And it shows that you're investing in the people, and you want the transition to be great and everyone to feel respected and welcome. So that was all great, but just to that same release of emotion and things like that, like the first... And luckily with the timing being the end of the year, I really looked at it and I was at least able to realize, alright, I have to get myself back to feeling normal by the start of the year.29:09 DS: Right.29:09 AW: So after 80 hour weeks, the stress of it leading separate lives between what you know and how the company is operating day-to-day, 'cause you're not sharing it with the entire team. All those things. I was really burnt out, I was really emotionally dried. Yeah and so, and they were really supportive of that, right? Alice was like...29:29 DS: Right. I was gonna ask.29:31 AW: Yeah, she was like, take what you need to figure it out, and part of me is I wasn't just gonna walk away for 45-60 days and be like, "Oh, I'll pick it back up", but I definitely scaled back down to 30-40 hour weeks, which as you know as an entrepreneur, running a company like that's... I can work 30 hours a week while I'm on vacation, just checking email and doing different things to keep things moving. But it was much more normal instead of the 60 plus hours. We took two family vacations. I tried to just really be present with my kids and my wife, and just keep myself off of Slack at night and email and not be as responsive and as immersed and all those things.30:19 DS: I flow like that all the time. I'll have busy periods where I have to work most evenings, and then I'll have periods where I'm like, "Yeah, no." Months will go by and I'm like, after 5:00 PM, I'm done. Just leave it like that.30:30 AW: Good for you. I think that's something as an overall, I need to get better at doing from time to time.30:37 DS: Yeah, I feel like the company's growing into a good position where I'm able to do that, right? I don't have to put in the 60 plus hours a week. Everything still runs fine. What I wanna do, I wanna get to 20 hours a week, that's my goal, 20 hours a week of my mornings to myself, I work in the afternoon just checking in. And that really comes down to getting a good leadership team in place and so that's where I'd like to get to in the next little while.31:00 AW: Awesome.31:00 DS: In a little while, like few years, right.31:02 AW: I see that as a good future episode, talking about how to get yourself in that position.31:07 DS: Yeah, totally.31:08 AW: So I think some of the other things to share is like... We can probably dive into some of the challenges, right? 31:15 DS: Yeah, yeah, now that you've done this transition, your company is different, it's like, the way you ran things before you had full control. I'm really interested in that aspect of, what kind of control did you have to give up? Who do you answer to now? Like now you have to answer to somebody, you didn't have to before.31:34 AW: Yeah, yeah, so I basically report to Alice Song, who's the COO. And so, yeah, she's my boss for the first time in a very long time. And what is really great is I, very early on, had a really great rapport with her. I think it's one of those where I can easily say Alice is a good human being first and that makes it really easy to interact. Of course, she's very intelligent and all these other things, but she's somebody that you can see just has natural empathy and things like that, is a great listener. That part definitely made that easier. But it is weird. There's a number of things where it's like I have to check myself and be like, "Alright, I should probably either ask for permission or make this known or put that out there". And it definitely changes your mind frame. And I might even be over asking for permission in some things or have some things where I don't actually have to share it, but your mind just goes there now, because it isn't just you to answer to.32:43 DS: Sure. Now you have a boss, you're like, hmmm. So normally, let's say somebody on the customer service team comes up, they're asking you to make a decision on something, do you... Are there some things that seem relatively minor that you would have just made the call, but now you're like, "Well, I guess I better run it by Alice"? 33:00 AW: No, I'm allowed to operate within those ways pretty easily. I would say the biggest thing it comes down to is money, right? If it's anything having to do with financials, money, spending money, a hire, any of those things where in the past I would either do it and then if it was over a certain amount, I would definitely share it with the partners and be like, "Hey, just so you know, I'm deciding to do this", or whatever else, or if it was big enough that I would say, "I'd like to do this. Are you guys in agreement?" But they had already said, "Hey you're here to do what you want and how you wanna do it".33:33 AW: So yeah, so it mostly comes down to those things. Some of them are... There might be a few things strategically where it's just like, "Okay, based on what this is or what it reaches across," And I just look at like, "Alright, if I was in her position, would I want a heads-up on this?" And that's probably the biggest way I try to operate, is just putting myself in her shoes and in her position and, "Is this something I should be aware of?" And if so, then I need to put it in front of her.34:00 DS: Sure, that makes a lot of sense. So that's good to know though, that you don't have to run by her the little, tiny nuances, every little thing; you still have control of running the company, for the most part.34:10 AW: Oh yeah, yeah, but... And by no means... If I was being micro-managed, I'd probably... I wouldn't be around. That just wouldn't work. [chuckle] That wouldn't work. And I don't sense any of that happening at all, so...34:22 DS: Yeah. And obviously, I'm sure she doesn't wanna get bothered by all the little things either.34:26 AW: No, no, she's got bigger fish to fry as well. She's running seven companies or overseeing seven companies, so she has plenty to do.34:34 DS: Yeah. And so do they... Something that must change is you have this vision for the company, and they maybe have a slightly different vision, and they have new metrics to meet and new goals to meet. How has that changed? 34:49 AW: Yeah, the first one that absolutely hits you in the face is probably more of the financial and those type of metrics and goals, just because... I think it all relates... We are very much of always the mindset, "We definitely cared about the numbers, we looked at our numbers, we're reviewing them monthly," and everything else, but we were also the ones setting and making our own goals, and it just gives you a different feeling than when someone else comes in and says, "Okay, here's your numbers, here's what you're gonna hit for revenue or margin, or these things."35:24 DS: Right. And were those numbers way bigger than yours, and you're like, "Oh, wow."35:27 AW: Yeah, parts of them were. Definitely, if we had to make them just ourselves, it wouldn't have been those numbers. But I also think that's the beauty of some of this too, is because... Just we were talking about before with emotions, you're able to set goals and say like, "Oh, alright, that won't... That isn't emotionally uncomfortable for me to set the goal here or to make this decision or to do this thing." Where when someone else comes in from the outside, they're not gonna have any of that emotion, and they're just gonna play it straight by the business decisions and the financial decisions. And so I look at that, it's like, "Yeah, there are some cons in there, but there's also some pros in there that I can easily appreciate." And you're like, "Okay, this is probably good, I'm pushed out of my zone on this, and let's get after it and see what happens."36:11 DS: Yeah, it makes sense. Did they change anything in terms of the way you operate, that kinda stuff? 36:18 AW: A little bit, just because of the... And I don't know if I'll be able to... I would say the easy way to look at this is the kind of how the existing companies are operated is director level and up at ASG MarTech are all centralized. So the director of product sits over the top of all six products. And then once you get down, then there is a product manager for an individual product. So some of that has been a little tricky in just to where those things intercede. Especially for me, because just as we talked about, there isn't a single other founder from these other companies, at least that I'm aware of, I haven't met every single person across all the teams yet, but I'm the only CEO of just a company within it. So I'm kinda on this island that's I'm not in the org chart, to some sense, of ASG MarTech, but I also am interacting and operating with that director level as well. And I think that's both different for them and me, so I think there's still kind of a lot to be figured out there, and how things flow, and where they go, and pieces like that.37:32 DS: Yeah. Are you operating as the product manager now? So the other six have a product manager because the founders left. But in your case, the CEO didn't leave, so do you just fill that role for them, they don't need a product manager? 37:45 AW: No, we still have our product manager. So if anything, I fit more of the role of the VP of product or the chief product officer, I'm still deciding those things. So if anything, I almost like... Their director of product that would normally be sitting there and working through those things, he's not doing that with us, it's... And they've given me the full rights to continue to work on a roadmap for what I have set out there and what I've put in place now. We've sat down, and I've laid it out, and we've talked about it, and they're like, "Yeah, totally makes sense, good," and everything else. And it's one of those where I look at them like, "Hey, if we're making our numbers and making the things happen, I will continue to probably have that." If something falls out of wax somewhere else, then maybe they end up more involved, I don't know. But so far, they've been very true to their word on that side of things, and they haven't really put anything in front of me that says like, "Oh no, you... Don't build that feature or we need you to put this feature," or do that, they've completely stayed out of that part of it.38:45 DS: What are some of the things that you used to have to do, so this is part of your role that you no longer have as part of your role, anything? Or is it business as usual? And then, I'd ask the same question for different teams, like your marketing team or your support team, I'm just curious about how things have changed for them and things that they don't have to do anymore.39:04 AW: Yeah. So I think one of the things that's reducing for me is direct reports into me. I probably had seven or eight people, just based on our structure and what that looked like out of our 21 people, that were reporting to me. But now, we're kinda peeling those off, and it's like, "Okay, this person that's in marketing is gonna report to their director of sales and marketing and this person in this position is gonna report to this." So it's helped from that side of it with me, and very much so when Alice and I are discussing. It's probably one of the biggest things that she's talked to me about is like, "Delegate. Get stuff off your plate. Get others doing more," things like that which is a little bit hard for me just because I'm... I'm just like, grab whatever I can and try to do it. So we're working on that.39:53 DS: Sure.39:53 AW: That part has definitely been a good thing and a lot of it is just still very much the same. It's just the process to get there, or having to circulate it or communicate it a little bit that now is just a little bit different, or you have to be a little bit more thoughtful with.40:11 DS: Yeah, I wanna quickly go back to something you said about how the goals have changed and the metrics, the numbers that they're giving you, do they give you those new numbers but then also provide insight and strategy on how you're gonna meet those numbers, like that you might not have thought of on your own. Are they bringing in direction and leadership in that area in a way that is really helpful for the business, you're like, "Oh wow, this is a great idea. And now I can see how we could get... How we could two times our numbers that we originally were planning for."? 40:40 AW: Boy, I would say a little yes, and a little no. It's definitely not an overwhelming tidal wave because quite frankly, to some aspect, it's like they bought you because they see the trend you're going on, right? 40:54 DS: Right, yeah.40:54 AW: You know, on one side, some of our goals, like our revenue goals, I didn't feel like, "Oh, that's crazy. We can't hit those, we can't grow that fast," or whatever. A lot of those were very much in line with what I would expect for ourselves. Hey, you know, the area where...41:10 DS: Sure.41:10 AW: Things tightened up probably a little bit more was just on budgeting and what our bottom line is, and from that aspect, it's easy to... It's not hard to see why they created the budget that way, or think about it that way, or, you know, and there's definitely some efficiencies outlined and things like that, but that's something that I would just say we never ever did. We just always look like, "Okay, almost the vast majority of dollars that we're gonna make, we're gonna pour back in to grow, because we wanna continue to grow in this direction," and there's...41:41 DS: Yeah, that's how I operate.41:42 AW: Yeah, and they're just... They're very much more disciplined about it. But again, I look at it as another good learning experience where I can see like, "Okay, I think we would have hit these same sales numbers, even without this happening to some extent, or been in the ballpark of them," but we wouldn't have been as profitable or created some of that margin, and this is a little bit more disciplined and a little bit more formatted in looking at it that way. So...42:09 DS: So, yeah, they would slow hires and expenses and those kinds of things, did they cut any expenses? 42:15 AW: Yup, no, didn't really cut expenses, but we definitely dove into areas where like, where are there efficiencies, and those kind of things came from certain vendors or suppliers where it's like, "Great, we already have two other companies that also use Twilio, so let's negotiate a group contract based on the usage we have between the three companies, instead of just you on your own." Yeah, so there's definitely some efficiencies in that structure.42:39 DS: Oh smart, yeah.42:40 AW: And I think, at the same time, to be fair...42:43 DS: Yeah.42:44 AW: They're learning about us and the nuances and the things that go on with that as well. So it's not like they're gonna have every answer, day one or day 30 or even day 90 with what that's gonna look like. I do think so much of year one with this for both sides is just like, "Here's what we've... Here's what we feel really good that we can make happen, here's some ways that we can work to make that happen." But a lot of it's just being like, "Alright, let's just be really open to learning," and both sides will pick things up and that will make years two, three, four even better from what we learned in the start.43:18 DS: For sure. I'm really interested to see how the company evolves over the next year, see how things start to change a little bit from what I'm familiar with and just waiting for that big thing, where I'm like, "Oh man, look at that, look what they did," and it's like these kinds of things that you can do when you're under a larger umbrella that you might not have been able to do on your own. I'm really interested to see some of those come on.43:39 AW: Yeah, and same for me, right? I mean, there's already... There's definitely already small and medium things I can look at and say, like, "I would have not arrived here, if it was just me making this decision or getting the information or doing the research on this." I've already had some of... And that's, it's...43:55 DS: Yeah.43:56 AW: It's really cool, right? And it's, even realizing the ones where you even feel a little uncomfortable about it, you have to say, "Here's the silver lining in it." Or, "Here's what I'm also gaining," and that piece is really important. But it is, it's just this balance though, especially for someone when you've owned something, just the emotional stock that you have in it and when you don't own it anymore, even though to... It's really weird, you could almost say that that is like not... It's not real, right? It's like you have control, you have stock, you have a percentage of the company, and you sell that, and you get something tangible in exchange in money, but it's really the emotional piece that changes as much as your bank account or something else does, and that...44:40 DS: Oh, I can imagine, yeah.44:40 AW: That's yeah, and that's the really hard thing to articulate, and it's really interesting to watch how it hits everyone differently too, right? Like how it has hit me is very different in how I process through it than how Mike Blumenthal has. And I can only imagine...44:55 DS: Right.44:56 AW: For like Don and Thomas, where they just had this cut off, and then they were out and now they're on the outside and watching things happen...45:03 DS: Yeah.45:04 AW: And curious and wondering what it's like and probably still having background conversations with some of the team and whatever. But when you go to something that you were part of, and then you're completely on the outside.45:14 DS: Man, that'd be weird.45:15 AW: You know, looking at it. Yeah, yeah, totally weird, so...45:17 DS: Yeah, yeah, the whole thing is weird in many ways. So in both positions, staying on has its own weirdness, but completely leaving, I... For me, I think that'd be even weirder, I'd just be like, "Oh okay, well, good luck with the company, the thing that I've been doing for the last 15 years."45:32 AW: Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah.45:33 DS: Yeah.45:33 AW: No, I definitely would have felt that way and the one thing I would share, you know, and... I think it's important, especially as you're trying to get as much of anything like your emotional conditions in shape through all of this. For me, it was really about finding what can I tie myself to do, too, that is more of the normalcy that I'm into and that I'm engaged with and that makes me happy. And then for me, it was like, it was these feature releases to start the year, like I...46:05 AW: And this is the core of SaaS anyway, as ship code and sell. We talk a lot about it. I'd make fun of that being my mindset anyway. But, we shipped a lot of code in January and February, and so it really allowed me to tie into all those small pieces of getting excited as it gets into a dev server and being able to test it, and getting into a production server and start to work through some of the marketing and the communications of it, and beta testers using it and things like that. So it was like we had all those cycles that easily allowed me, as some other things needed more time to even out, or sometimes you just need time for your emotions to settle down or you need need to figure out how to articulate them. That gave me the work to tie into that I really love. I just said like, "Alright focus all your energy on this part that you really love and that will help guide you through as some of the other things even out.47:01 DS: That makes sense. At least you get to maintain some normalcy in your everyday operation.47:06 AW: Yeah, absolutely.47:08 DS: So what are some big gains, some awesome things that have come out of this? Some of the things that you're recognizing are valuable from this acquisition? 47:17 AW: Personally, getting to operate with other smart people. It's like, instantly you gain a group of people with different backgrounds, different experiences, different approaches, and that's been really great. I've enjoyed the directors at ASG and the people that I'm talking with; Francis who heads up their product and Kaitlyn in sales and marketing and Lauren. These are people that I really enjoy the conversations with and tackling problem-solving and ideas and things like that with, so that part has been a lot of fun. I've also just really enjoyed... I get to watch Alice in a position that my team would view me in, so I get to watch her operate in situations and how she engages and how she asked questions. And to me it's really interesting, too, because I'm someone... My educational background is massively minimal and she's someone who undergrad was at Yale and her Master's from Stanford Business School, so she's been to handling school training. All these things super heavily.48:26 DS: Yeah, she's a real pro.48:28 AW: Yeah, exactly, so it's been fun for me to watch those things and pick up on like, "Oh you can just tell where some of those things derive from," and also where some of the things just derive from who she is. So that's been a really cool thing for me, personally. It's always great when you're around smart, driven, caring people. It's fun.48:49 DS: Great. Well that's a huge win right there. You never really know... I guess you had a sense of it, through the sales process about who you were selling to, but until you start working with them day-to-day, you never really know. So it's nice to hear that it worked out pretty well and that you're happy with the leadership that's now making the call, the major shots at GatherUp. Sounds good.49:12 AW: And then just as I touched on... The other thing that's just really stood out to me is working also with the leadership and people making decisions that aren't as emotionally invested. It's been such an interesting exercise for me to watch how much emotion plays into how you make decisions and the effect it has on you and others and the degree of the decision and all those other things. So that's just been one. It's not something where it's like, "Oh, I have these answers" or whatever on it. But it's really made me aware of how much emotion factors in decisions.49:49 DS: Can you give me an example of a decision that you might have made that the company is less emotional about? So they have a better perspective on it. What are the kinds of things... I wonder what I do as an emotional founder who decides what features we build and what stuff we're gonna do mostly on whim. And how we're gonna price things. Gosh, a lot of that stuff is just based off of my gut feeling.50:13 AW: Yeah, no, for sure, the biggest one. And I'm sure some time after all the dust settles on this, we can definitely do an episode on it, but we basically have a change to our plans coming. It's something that I had mentioned before. We had started discussing this last summer, before we ever got this offer or anything else, we knew we needed to do something differently. So in the process of deciding this, because plans are tied to money and things like that, and the core essence of it is, you're shifting and we're removing a plan from our offering.50:48 AW: And within that, I looked at how I would have approached it even to arrive at that we are gonna sunset a plan versus other options and how you do things. I wouldn't have arrived as quickly or easily on the path that we're on. When you look at it just numerically and you look at it strategically and all these other things, it is such a 100%. When you look at it without emotion, you're like, "That's absolutely the right decision." But the minute you start clouding it with emotion, then you get into the, "Yeah, buts. And what if we did this?" and whatever else. I easily can see that the emotion in it would have just added a little more confusion. It would've added a lot more work. It would've distracted our focus. It would have done all these other things that are counter-intuitive in the long run, because in the short term it would have been just harder emotionally to handle what's there.51:39 DS: Right, right, right. That's a great example. That makes a lot of sense. Would you even have thought of doing that, or were you already thinking of doing it? Or they just came in and said, "I think we should do this"? 51:47 AW: It was like one of the things we were considering, but I think we wouldn't have done it. I think we would have... We would have emotionally argued why not to do it and gone somewhere like, "Alright, this is super safe." Right? And in business, you can't always do the super safe. You have to stretch a little bit further for the right reasons. I just... It wouldn't have ended up the same, and I'm really... I'm glad... I appreciate being pushed out of my emotional safety zone.52:16 DS: Do they have some financial smarts that they were able to look at your plans and pricing structure and stuff and say...52:22 AW: Yes.52:23 DS: "We might lose a little bit on this, but we're gonna make a back up on this." So they were able to kinda project and calculate that? 52:30 AW: They totally do. ASG as a whole has gone through this process and a few different flavors with multiple others of their products, not even just the MarTech products that we're about. So there's definitely like guidance and background and that kind of stuff that's there that really helps on the confidence side of it.52:50 DS: Yeah. It's interesting. That's where I feel so lacking in that. I just don't have that CFO ability to do projections and figure out what the market value is for something and how to price things. It's really hard to do that unless you've studied it. I'm too busy building product.53:06 AW: Yeah, and I think it's easy. I mean just look at anything though that if you just took something to get a friend or a colleague you respect their opinion on something and you just gave them facts on it or gave them spreadsheets on it or whatever else and said, "All right, tell me what'd you do and what you think." Probably, when they gave you that answer, you would then rebuttal it with emotional reasons why not to, because they can look at it and they're not worried about disappointing anyone or upsetting anyone or dealing with a hard conversation or any of that stuff. But like you know those inherently, you know your customers by name, like all those kind of things. So your first reaction is like, "No. No, no. That's... You can't. You can't do that. And here's why." Even though like the math might be telling you, the facts are telling you everything else. It's really interesting.53:54 DS: Right. Right. That is really interesting. And I would definitely be in that emotional stage too knowing how deep I am into like all of the aspects of the business. Yep.54:03 AW: Yeah. And other than that, the one final thing that was really cool that just has happened the last few weeks is our VP of customer success who actually works in my office with me is my lone recruit from the town of... City of Buffalo that I live in. But Taylor was actually just promoted. He now leads both the GatherUp team and Grade.us who's our sister company but competitor in reviews.54:25 DS: Oh, cool.54:26 AW: He's leading both of those customers success teams now.54:29 DS: Oh, interesting.54:31 AW: So yeah, so really cool for our team to already see that there's career opportunities and bigger things and ways it can be pushed. So there's...54:39 DS: That's a really interesting thing like the ability that okay now with a larger corporate structure, all your employees just got a bigger ceiling, like the ceiling just got expanded for them.54:50 AW: Yep. Absolutely. So that's been really cool. Taylor is super deserving. I know he's gonna do a great job running both and so but that was... That's just a really cool thing that already within the first four months that someone on our team has been elevated into a bigger structure within the company.55:07 DS: Yeah. That's great. Wow! Interesting. It's such a really great topic. I'm so grateful to have you sharing it with me and I guess with all our podcast listeners as well. I get to hear it first, I suppose, since we're recording it. But yeah, I just... I love this topic and it's so great to have a close friend go through it and lead the way for us. These are great episodes.55:30 AW: Well, happy to do it. I hope it's been helpful in some lights. Again, I always wanna point out like this is just our story in it and my story in it.55:38 DS: Yeah. Sure. Yeah.55:40 AW: Results may vary as the weight loss commercials always tell you but there are... I really think the things that if you're gonna gleam out of this three-part series is like just a lot on the emotional side of things, how to approach things, what they really mean, how to decipher, how to make decisions and all of this like... But, also finding as you've heard me call out, like find the trusted people that can help you at the different points with it. Trust your gut, do your due diligence. There's like all these characteristics no matter the structure of the deal and how it looks and whatever else, but you have to rely on those things for sure.56:16 DS: Yeah. For sure. Wow, it's been very educational. I look forward to seeing how it goes over the next six months to a year too. It'll be exciting to watch GatherUp evolve under this new direction, slightly new direction. You know things... Your road map is mostly the same, but as you talked about with the plans and pricing changes and those kinds of things, how it's like there will be some changes and it'd be really exciting for me to see how they impact the business.56:40 AW: Well, we'll see them, we'll talk about them, and we'll go from there. All right. Well, thanks Darren. I appreciate you being my Davenport I can lay on and this probably psychologically has been good for me too to rehash it and lay it out there and even turn some of the hard things into something that's hopefully helpful for the next person.57:00 DS: Yeah. Wow, thank you. Yeah, it's been great.57:02 AW: Cool. All right. Well with that everybody, we will wrap. We're at an hour, of course. Our longest episode to date. And we could probably keep going but if you're someone that maybe you're out running and you listen to us, you just probably ran an extra mile so you can thank us for that.57:19 DS: Totally.57:21 AW: As always, please feel free to share any of our episodes on the social media channels. Please feel free to drop us a review. Please feel free to connect with us on social media or drop us any feedback you have for us. Always want to incorporate that or try to answer things you wanna know about.57:39 DS: Yeah, do those things, do that.57:42 AW: Yes. Yes, we wanna hear from you. So with that we'll wrap it up. And Darren, hopefully, we'll talk to you again in a couple of weeks and...57:49 DS: Couple of weeks. Sounds good.57:50 AW: See how things are going. Because I know from your world something is gonna launch in the next two weeks.57:56 DS: Every two weeks. I launch something new every two weeks. That's what I keep telling the team. Yeah. How long is that gonna be? It's two weeks.58:02 AW: Awesome. So great. All right, take care, Darren. We'll talk to you soon.58:05 DS: Okay. See yeah.58:06 AW: Alright see you everybody.[music]