Podcasts about whitespark

If you're in the SEO industry, you know Darren Shaw and his company, Whitespark.If you're not... well you're still in for a good episode as we barely even talk about SEO!We go deep into how Darren is able to run a 7-figure agency and equally sized SaaS that is well recognized in the SEO industry. On top of that, we talk about he's still able to find the time to remain a subject matter expert in the SEO field, make all these YouTube videos, build winning teams, vibe code new SaaS products, and maintain his personal brand.Darren is everywhere all the time and still running a more successful business than we are... how?Check out Whitespark at https://whitespark.ca and follow Darren and Whitespark on all the social medias:https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenshawwhitespark/https://www.facebook.com/darrenshawseohttps://www.youtube.com/@WhitesparkCa-----SPONSOR: Tiiny HostThis week's episode is sponsored by Tiiny Host. Use code "grow" and get 50% OFF your first month of a Pro or Pro Max plan at https://tinyhost.com/agencies.-----JOIN THE FREE DISCORDhttps://discord.gg/uvHRRRFVRDOur recommended agency tools:everbrospodcast.com/recommended-tools/----------------------------------⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐As always, if you enjoyed this episode or this podcast in general and want to leave us a review or rating, head over to Apple and let us know what you like! It helps us get found and motivates us to keep producing this free content.----------------------------------Want to connect with us? Reach out to us on the everbrospodcast.com website, subscribe to us on YouTube, or connect with us on socials:YouTube: @agencygrowthpodcastTwitter/X: @theagency_uLinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/agencypodcastFacebook: facebook.com/theagencyuInstagram: @theagencyuReddit: r/agency & u/JakeHundleyTikTok: @agency.u

Whitespark's Local Search Ranking Factors Report surveys the best and the brightest SEOs (and Gyi and Conrad) to gain a clearer picture of the latest drivers of local search rankings. Understanding how to rank in Google's local search results is critical to every single one of your marketing plans, so the guys welcome Darren Shaw to nerd out on this year's report findings and teach you what to prioritize in your marketing efforts. Darren and the guys have plenty of great knowledge tidbits to hash out–from the importance of accurate business hours to maintaining a visible address online to current AI search observations, and much more. Stick around to the end of the episode for some tactical tips on making LSAs work for your law firm!    The News: Top Dog Acquires Keller Swan – Always a good day for an acquisition, buuut… Florida? Really? AIO Impact on Google CTR: September 2025 Update – Click-through rates are way down—Should you care? It might be time to shift your focus elsewhere. Great insights here, folks: Future-Proofing Your Firm in the Age of AI, with Jack Newton - Lawyerist #587   Listen Next: How to Rank with Google AI Mode   Connect: The Bite - Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Newsletter! Leave Us an Apple Review  Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on YouTube  Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on TikTok r/LHLM 

Send us a textLocal SEO just got a major shake-up. In this episode, Darren Shaw of Whitespark joins Mike Blumenthal, David Mihm, and Greg Sterling to reveal key takeaways from the 2026 Local Search Ranking Factors study — including how AI search, behavioral signals, and reviews are changing the local game. Hear what really moves the needle, what's fading, and where Google, Gemini, and ChatGPT fit into your future strategy.Subscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Send us a textWe dig into when/where Google's AI Overviews (AIOs) appear in local, how people actually split tasks across Google vs. ChatGPT, what the DOJ's remedies mean for defaults, and a fresh case where a brand-new local biz triggered an AIO—plus practical takeaways.Subscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

On today's episode, Dr. Mark Costes is joined by Darren Shaw, founder of Whitespark and one of the most trusted voices in local SEO. Darren breaks down exactly how dentists can dominate local search results—not just on Google, but also on emerging platforms like ChatGPT. He explains the three overlooked pillars of local SEO: optimizing your Google Business Profile, having a smart and consistent review strategy, and building citations that boost your online presence.   Darren shares practical tips on everything from uploading weekly photos and selecting the right categories, to responding to reviews and leveraging “best of” lists for AI visibility. He also explains how dentists can hold marketing teams or agencies accountable using real, measurable metrics. Whether you're doing it yourself or outsourcing, this episode is packed with next-level strategies to attract more patients through smarter online visibility. Be sure to check out the full episode from the Dentalpreneur Podcast! EPISODE RESOURCES https://whitespark.ca https://www.truedentalsuccess.com Dental Success Network Subscribe to The Dentalpreneur Podcast

Send us a textDarren Shaw of Whitespark returns to the Near Memo to talk with Mike and Greg about what's actually working—and what's not—in local SEO as AI begins reshaping consumer behavior. From the rise of first-party reviews to YouTube's power for B2B lead gen, this episode tackles how agencies can prepare clients for a future beyond Google. They also dig into the limitations of ChatGPT's local recommendations, where blogs still make sense, and what digital PR might look like for small businesses. Practical, honest, and forward-looking.Subscribe to our newsletters and other content at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Local SEO just got a reality check. Darren Shaw, founder of Whitespark, joins Rooted in Revenue to debunk some widely held myths while sharing what actually drives results for small businesses trying to dominate local search. If you're a real estate agent sharing office space with ten competitors, a service provider working from home, or any brick-and-mortar business wondering why your Google rankings aren't improving despite "doing everything right," this conversation will change how you approach local SEO forever. Shaw breaks down the local filter that's silently crushing businesses sharing addresses, reveals why citation consistency isn't the ranking factor everyone thinks it is, and explains why your Google Business Profile needs constant attention, not a "set it and forget it" approach. Plus, he tackles the age-old question about Yelp's practices and shares the one ranking factor that trumps almost everything else. About Darren Shaw Darren founded Whitespark in 2005 as a web design and development company; however, his passion and curiosity for all things local search led to a shift in focus in 2010, and ultimately to what the company is today. These days, Whitespark specializes in local search software and services and is one of the most respected and cited in the industry. Darren has been working on the web for over 19 years and loves everything about local SEO. He leads research initiatives such as the Local Search Ranking Factors survey and the Local Search Ecosystem. He is a regular contributor to search marketing publications, and speaks at conferences around the globe. When Darren isn't speaking at conferences, researching the latest in local search or designing the next best local SEO tool, he is spending time with his wife and daughter in their hometown of Edmonton, Alberta. In his spare time he's traveling, sporting fancy socks, and drinking too much coffee. Social Links: https://whitespark.ca/  https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenshawwhitespark/ https://www.instagram.com/darrenshawseo/  https://www.facebook.com/darrenshawseo  

In Part 2 of our conversation about Local SEO, Darren Shaw of Whitespark returns to The Simple and Smart SEO Show to break down advanced Google Business Profile (GBP) strategies that actually move the needle. From the controversial truth about citation consistency to actionable tactics for leveraging Google reviews and optimizing your GBP for maximum visibility, Darren shares insider tips you won't find in a typical SEO blog post. Whether you're a service provider, e-commerce seller, or local business, this episode is packed with high-impact, no-fluff advice to help you dominate local search results—ethically and effectively.

In this value-packed episode of the Simple and Smart SEO Show, host

Was this helpful? Leave a review!https://g.page/r/CVs16A3t1J44EAI/reviewThis episode delves into the critical issue of fake reviews in the digital shopping landscape, emphasizing the growing prevalence and impact on consumer decision-making. We uncover insights from a study analyzing 73 million reviews, share tips to spot AI-generated reviews, and address the phenomenon of review hijacking affecting local businesses.The significance of reviews in modern purchasing decisions  The rise of AI-generated reviews and implications for consumersOverview of the study and its findings on review fraud Tips for identifying suspicious reviews  Discussion on the practice of review hijacking and its impact on businesses  ADDITIONAL RESOURCESOriginal study:https://askfortransparency.com/research/high-cost-of-review-fraud/Google Business Profile monitoring by Whitespark:https://whitespark.ca/local-platform/ ---Meredith's Husbandhttps://www.meredithshusband.com

This week, we've got a jam-packed session covering the latest and most pressing news in digital marketing and SEO. Top Stories: we discussed the recent merger of Getty and Shutterstock and its implications for image licensing, alongside the backlash Automattic is facing from the WordPress community. Adding to this, we explored how Google's search market share has hit its lowest since 2015! We have a special segment “In Local News” with friend of the show and Local SEO specialist, Darren Shaw, founder and president of WhiteSpark. He'll be sharing his insights on local search ranking factors, mapping exploits, and the evolving landscape of Google's local and LSA ads. Whether you manage a digital marketing agency or optimize your own business's online presence, this episode is loaded with invaluable tips and updates to help you navigate your digital marketing journey in 2025.  So, buckle up and let's get to the EDGE—of the Web! News from the EDGE: [00:02:44] The Getty-Shutterstock merger: A new era for image SEO and licensable content [00:11:54] Automattic Turns Against WordPress Community Itself [00:17:19] EDGE of the Web Title Sponsor: Site Strategics [00:18:52] Google's search market share drops below 90% for the first time since 2015 In Local News w/ Darren Shaw:[00:24:05] EDGE of the Web Sponsor: InLinks[00:25:21] Google Map Pin Attack Exploit Fixed [00:28:14] Near Media - Google is replacing the UGC Google Q&A with "Ask Maps."  [00:31:26] Mike Blumenthal - Details” on the “Review Badge of Shame” [00:35:52] Mike Blumenthal - LSA ads are becoming ever more visible [00:38:15] Anthony Higman - Google Is Getting Rid Of Crediting Back Leads, Message Leads, Booking And Call Recording For The Tax Specialist Vertical [00:41:47] Antoine Cameron - new AI tool under the Products section in Google Business Profiles [00:45:28] January 2025 Google Local Ranking Update (Unconfirmed Bug) Thanks to our sponsors! Site Strategics https://edgeofthewebradio.com/site Inlinks https://edgeofthewebradio.com/inlinks Follow Us: X: @ErinSparks BluSky: Darren Shaw (https://bsky.app/profile/whitespark.ca) X: @TheMann00 X: @EDGEWebRadio

In this episode, Meredith and her husband discuss issues surrounding Google Business Profile suspensions, offering strategies to prevent suspensions and steps to take for reinstatement. They explain common triggers, like address-related issues and frequent user-edit suggestions, and emphasize the importance of monitoring business listings closely. They recommend tools like WhiteSpark to manage citations effectively, which helps Google verify business information. These tips can help business owners maintain visibility and avoid common pitfalls in Google's local search system.Resources:https://whitespark.ca/local-platformhttps://support.google.com/business/answer/4569145Chapters[0:24] Introduction to Google Business Profile Suspensions[0:51] Profile Suspension Due to Business Name Issues[1:09] Importance of Maintaining a Verified Profile[2:06] Common Reasons for Profile Suspensions[3:17] Misunderstandings About Suspension Causes[4:29] Competitor Manipulation and Address Changes[6:07] Steps to Contact Google Support[6:57] Suspension Impact on SEO and Search Visibility[8:08] Monitoring and Managing Business Listings[10:47] Tips for Preventing Address-Based Suspensions ---Meredith's Husbandhttps://www.meredithshusband.com

Join host Jack Chambers-Ward and special guest Darren Shaw, founder of Whitespark, as they dive into the latest in local SEO and Google Business Profile optimisation. Discover key updates expected in 2025, innovative methods to enhance rankings, the impact of custom service entries, strategic use of Google Posts, and the importance of robust Q&A sections. From optimising menu items for restaurants to leveraging photos and videos effectively, this episode is packed with expert insights and practical tips essential for SEO professionals and business owners. Links to follow Darren Darren on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/darrenshawwhitespark/⁠ Whitespark on LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/company/whitespark/⁠  Threads: ⁠https://www.threads.net/@darrenshawseo⁠  Website: ⁠https://whitespark.ca/⁠  YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@WhitesparkCa⁠  Tiktok: ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@darrenshawseo⁠ Resources Local SEO ranking factors 2023 edition - ⁠https://whitespark.ca/local-search-ranking-factors⁠ ⁠Do Services in Google Business Profiles Impact Ranking? - Sterling Sky Inc⁠ ⁠Are Opening Hours a Local Ranking Factor? - BrightLocal⁠ ⁠Report: Menu items, busier businesses may be Google local ranking signals⁠ Google Vision AI: ⁠https://cloud.google.com/vision⁠  ⁠Website Title Tags and GMB Snippets⁠ Enter…the stuff zone: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/posts/darrenshawwhitespark_perfect-title-tags-for-local-seo-activity-7065345429235781632-xGo1/⁠ Chapters 00:00 Introduction 02:20 Sponsorship Shoutout: SE Ranking 03:54 Sponsorship Shoutout: Also Asked 05:19 Darren Shaw's Journey in SEO 06:31 Local Search Ranking Factors Update 09:43 Optimising Google Business Profile Services 18:23 Impact of Business Hours on Rankings 23:47 Menu Items and Local SEO 29:03 Multilingual Business Names for Local SEO 31:34 Mastering Google Posts: Common Mistakes and Best Practices 37:19 The Power of Videos and Photos in Google Business Profiles 44:53 Optimising Your Google Business Profile Q&A 50:18 The Controversy of Keyword Stuffing in Title Tags 57:07 Outro

The Bulletproof Dental Podcast Episode 362 HOSTS: Dr. Peter Boulden and Dr. Craig Spodak GUEST: Darren Shaw DESCRIPTION In this conversation, Peter and Darren discuss the importance of local SEO for dentists and how to optimize their Google Business Profile. They cover topics such as the impact of reviews on local rankings, the significance of keywords in the business name, the value of image and video optimization, and the benefits of using YouTube for video embedding. Darren emphasizes the importance of user engagement signals, such as time on site and pogo sticking, in influencing search rankings. He also discusses the significance of having a well-designed website with compelling copywriting and videos to keep visitors engaged. He highlights the value of optimizing GMB services and using Google Posts as a sales tool. Additionally, Darren recommends using Microsoft Clarity to track user behavior on websites and improve conversion rates. TAKEAWAYS Local SEO is crucial for dentists to improve their rankings in the local pack and attract more customers. Optimizing the Google Business Profile is essential, including selecting the right primary category and soliciting reviews. Image optimization, including adding captions and descriptions, can improve engagement and visibility. Mobile optimization is vital, as Google prioritizes mobile-friendly websites and profiles. User engagement signals, such as time on site and pogo sticking, play a crucial role in search rankings. Having a well-designed website with compelling copywriting and videos can help keep visitors engaged. Optimizing GMB services and using Google Posts as a sales tool can have a positive impact on rankings and conversions. Tracking user behavior on websites using tools like Microsoft Clarity can help improve conversion rates. CHAPTERS 00:00 - Introduction and Background 02:29 - The Importance of Local SEO for Dentists 06:43 - Optimizing the Google Business Profile 09:26 - The Significance of Keywords in the Business Name 12:20 - Creating Separate Google Business Profiles for Practitioners 18:10 - The Impact of Image Optimization on Rankings 20:58 - The Benefits of Using YouTube for Video Embedding 25:23 - The Importance of Mobile Optimization 30:13 - Optimizing User Engagement Signals 33:12 - Prioritizing GMB Services and Mirror Image Web Pages 46:58 - Monitoring and Managing Google Business Profiles 51:38 - Tracking User Behavior with Microsoft Clarity REFERENCES Bulletproof Mastermind Darren Shaw  

Send us a Text Message.New SAB Local Ranking Factor:  Service area businesses have long been a problem on Google Maps. Spam, privacy, suspension AND ranking issues have plagued them since the beginning. Now it appears that there may be hope on the ranking issue. Historically they were ranked around the location from which they were claimed regardless of the service area. Darren Shaw of Whitespark has uncovered some indications that this is starting to change and the ranking signals are more around the service area chosen. Stay tuned. Interpreting Google AI Tea leaves & What it Says About Google's Product Development: Lots of questions swirled around Google's AI Overviews: Would their effect be apocalyptic on publishers? What did Pichai mean when he talked about an increase in web visits? Was Google going to surface the data in Search Console?The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.Ep 158Subscribe to our 3x per week newsletter at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Whether you have a DIY approach to your law firm marketing or an in-house team at your beck and call, you really should be using the top tools of the trade, and Gyi and Conrad share just what you need! But first—many, many SEOs preach that you should keep ALL your old content… but we're pretty sure you really need to toss the majority of that bulk overboard.  Is your website riding a bit low in the water? We keep hearing marketers say that your old content is some sort of treasure trove, but, more likely, it's just outdated junk that needs to be jettisoned—quickly. Clearing things out can make more valuable content perform better, and Gyi and Conrad lay out how to decide what should stay and what should go.  Next, the list you've always needed to fill up your marketing toolbox! Depending on your approach and resources, the guys outline three different lists of essential tools to help you hone your marketing tactics.  Total Beginner - The DIY Lawyer's Marketing Tools Google Searches Meta's Ad Library Google Maps CallRail Camera  Microphone - SM58, MV7, or similar. Intermediate Tools - For the Those With Growing Expertise    Local SEO Tools: Local Falcon, BrightLocal, Whitespark, or Places Scout. Intake Management Software: Clio Grow, Lawmatics, Litify, Lead Docket, etc.  A Link Index Tool: Ahrefs, Semrush, Moz Advanced Tools - for the Seasoned Pro, Marketing Directors, SEO Leads, and the Like! Screaming Frog   The News: Google I/O 2024 (their developer conference) just wrapped up, so what's gonna be happening with the latest in the search realm? Google is adding more AI to its search results | TechCrunch and Generative AI in Search: Let Google do the searching for you. ChapGPT 4.0 (Omni) is now available, and we're all just still hoping AI isn't going to eventually kill us all: Hello GPT-4o | OpenAI  LSA now means Let's Screw Attorneys — So, should you play the game or just quit now? Thanks? We got a blog award: The 16 Best Legal Marketing Podcasts Of 2024  Gyi and Conrad will both be participating in the Law Firm Growth Summit from May 21-23.  And, LocalU Detroit is coming up on June 24th!  Mentioned in this Episode: The Bite - Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Newsletter! Leave Us an Apple Review  Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on YouTube  Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on TikTok

Whether you have a DIY approach to your law firm marketing or an in-house team at your beck and call, you really should be using the top tools of the trade, and Gyi and Conrad share just what you need! But first—many, many SEOs preach that you should keep ALL your old content… but we're pretty sure you really need to toss the majority of that bulk overboard.  Is your website riding a bit low in the water? We keep hearing marketers say that your old content is some sort of treasure trove, but, more likely, it's just outdated junk that needs to be jettisoned—quickly. Clearing things out can make more valuable content perform better, and Gyi and Conrad lay out how to decide what should stay and what should go.  Next, the list you've always needed to fill up your marketing toolbox! Depending on your approach and resources, the guys outline three different lists of essential tools to help you hone your marketing tactics.  Total Beginner - The DIY Lawyer's Marketing Tools Google Searches Meta's Ad Library Google Maps CallRail Camera  Microphone - SM58, MV7, or similar. Intermediate Tools - For the Those With Growing Expertise    Local SEO Tools: Local Falcon, BrightLocal, Whitespark, or Places Scout. Intake Management Software: Clio Grow, Lawmatics, Litify, Lead Docket, etc.  A Link Index Tool: Ahrefs, Semrush, Moz Advanced Tools - for the Seasoned Pro, Marketing Directors, SEO Leads, and the Like! Screaming Frog   The News: Google I/O 2024 (their developer conference) just wrapped up, so what's gonna be happening with the latest in the search realm? Google is adding more AI to its search results | TechCrunch and Generative AI in Search: Let Google do the searching for you. ChapGPT 4.0 (Omni) is now available, and we're all just still hoping AI isn't going to eventually kill us all: Hello GPT-4o | OpenAI  LSA now means Let's Screw Attorneys — So, should you play the game or just quit now? Thanks? We got a blog award: The 16 Best Legal Marketing Podcasts Of 2024  Gyi and Conrad will both be participating in the Law Firm Growth Summit from May 21-23.  And, LocalU Detroit is coming up on June 24th!  Mentioned in this Episode: The Bite - Lunch Hour Legal Marketing Newsletter! Leave Us an Apple Review  Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on YouTube  Lunch Hour Legal Marketing on TikTok

In this episode, I've got to tell you about this amazing chat I had with Derral Eves. If you haven't heard of him, he's the genius who's been helping YouTube stars like Mr. Beast become household names, and he's the brains behind Vid Summit. We got together to talk about something I'm super passionate about: leveraging YouTube for local businesses, especially for my fellow vets out there. And before we jump in, a huge thanks to WhiteSpark and CallRail for supporting our show and helping businesses shine with local SEO and call tracking. Now, let me tell you about Derral's journey. This guy started his digital marketing agency way back in '99 and pivoted to YouTube when it was just a fledgling platform in 2005. He's not just a marketing whiz; he's also a dad to five kids down in southern Utah. His personal story is a testament to how YouTube can revolutionize the way we build audiences and make money. In our conversation, Derral dropped some serious knowledge about the unique advantages YouTube has over other platforms like TikTok. We're talking about real revenue and engagement potential here. He shared stories of success from all kinds of niches, proving that no matter how specialized your interest is, there's room for you on YouTube. For us in the veterinary field, this is golden. I even shared how Dr. Cody Gillman's YouTube channel skyrocketed to 60,000 subscribers, boosting his practice and making it a magnet for young talent in the industry. Derral's parting wisdom? Focus on your passion, not just the views. Whether you're starting a new channel or building on an existing one, clarity and consistency are your best friends. And don't worry about being too niche – it's all about finding your unique specialty and owning it. Remember to check your YouTube data now and then, but don't obsess over it. Keep an eye on metrics like click-through rates and viewer behavior post-video to keep improving your content. Wrapping up, I'm just blown away by the potential YouTube has for vets and local businesses. It's not just about growing your practice; it's about building a community and sharing your passion with the world. So, if you're a vet looking to make a mark, or you're just starting out, consider this your sign to dive into video marketing on YouTube. It could be the best move you make for your business. Thanks for tuning in, and I can't wait to see where your YouTube journey takes you!

In our latest chat, we're tackling the ins and outs of digital marketing and how it can totally transform your vet practice. We're talking about drawing in new clients, keeping them engaged, and making sure they stick around. I'm here to guide you through this journey, so let's jump right in! First off, I want to give a massive shoutout to our sponsors, WhiteSpark and CallRail. These folks are changing the game in digital marketing, and I'll be spilling the beans on how their services can seriously up your practice's game. Now, let's get to the good stuff. We're zeroing in on client-centered marketing because, let's face it, your clients are the heart of your practice. It's not just about listing what you can do; it's about understanding and addressing what your clients and their furry friends need. From the moment they call your practice to the messages they read on your website, it's all about making them feel heard and cared for. And it doesn't stop there. We're diving into how to create meaningful interactions, educate your clients right from the start, and even how to get them to sing your praises to others. Plus, we can't ignore the power of online reviews. I'll share some killer strategies on how to manage feedback to boost your online rep. This episode is jam-packed with actionable tips that can make your practice the go-to spot for pet care. So, if you're ready to make some waves in your digital marketing efforts and create a practice that truly resonates with pet owners, you won't want to miss this. Stick around for more episodes where we'll keep unraveling the world of veterinary digital marketing. Until next time, let's keep pushing the boundaries and making those meaningful connections with our clients. Catch you on the flip side!

In one of my latest episodes, I had an awesome chat with Darren Shaw, the big brain behind Whitespark, and let me tell you, it was a treasure trove of local SEO gold. We dove deep into the nitty-gritty of Google business listings and how they can make or break your visibility in your local community. If you're running a vet practice, you're going to want to hear this because Darren's insights could seriously put you on the map – literally. So, Darren's been in the local SEO game for over a decade, and Whitespark started out just like any other web development company in Edmonton. But now? They're the go-to for boosting your search rankings. And get this – your Google business profile is like your secret weapon. It's shocking how many businesses don't realize the power of keeping it fresh with updates, photos, and engaging content. It's not just about looking good; it's about drawing in those leads and calls that keep your practice thriving. But here's the kicker – local SEO isn't a one-and-done deal. It's a long game, and it's all about building a solid online presence that keeps you top of mind and top of search results. And with Google always shaking things up, Darren and I got into what's next for SEO and how to stay ahead. Plus, he dropped a killer pro tip: sprinkle some relevant keywords into your Google business profile name, and watch your local rankings climb. It's these kinds of strategies that can open up a world of growth for your business. Thanks for tuning in to this deep dive into local SEO with me. If you're ready to up your online game and get those leads rolling in, these strategies are your starting line. And remember, SEO is always on the move, so keep learning, keep tweaking, and keep climbing those rankings. Catch you next time!

Google's Newest Search Features: “Whipped cream on S.H. I. .T”.?While Google's new features aim to enhance user interaction and personalize the search experience, they may not address broader user concerns about search result quality and privacy. And in fact may, as David points out, might just be whipped cream on a not very tasty substrate. The success of these features will depend on their implementation, user acceptance, and compliance with global privacy standards.Whitespark Research:  Exploring the Landscape of Local Business Reviews across 1 Million Listings. In the world of local businesses, customer reviews play a pivotal role in shaping public perception and influencing consumer decisions. Darren Shaw and Whitespark's comprehensive analysis of a million local businesses offers valuable insights into the distribution of reviews across various categories. There is a lot of work to be done on the fake review front:Google's new review algo didn't do a very good job spotting the many fake reviews on the physician's practice recently fined by the NYS AG. The fine, $100,000, was hardly enough to pay for the time they spent analyizing the situation and certainly was not enough to deter someone that is making millions as an orthopedic surgeon.  While the FTC and state's AG are getting more aggressive bringing high profile cases, it is unlikely that is enough to stem the tide of fake reviews. The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.near memo ep 135Subscribe to our 3x per week newsletter at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

En nuestro capítulo de esta semana de la Pulidora, os hablo de un tema interesante: las reseñas, tanto las buenas como las malas. Os doy mi punto de vista sobre cómo se deberían valorar y analizamos varias reseñas reales que han dejado nuestros compañeros. Info Parquet es la plataforma donde os contamos todo lo relacionado con el parquet. En nuestro blog, vamos publicando noticias, novedades e información. Tenemos un canal de YouTube donde subimos videos de temática variada, y un podcast donde te contamos historias de parquet. Nuestro consejo es que vayas a infoparquet.com y te suscribas a nuestro boletín de noticias. Cada semana te mandaremos todo lo que publiquemos. Además, si eres profesional, puedes crearte una página en nuestro directorio de profesionales. Aquellas personas que visiten nuestra web pueden contactarte. También tenemos una selección de productos recomendados para el parquet y los parquetistas en nuestra tienda, y una sección de recursos y aplicaciones de utilidad en vuestro día a día. Todo son ventajas si estás registrado en Info Parquet. ¡Te esperamos! Si quieres saber todo sobre esta forma virtual de recomendarnos y mi sincera opinión de que en algunos casos se utilizan erróneamente, también os digo cómo implementarlas en vuestra web. Y cómo pedirle a un cliente que te haga la reseña y la valoración de forma sencilla utilizando este enlace que podéis enviar por email, o incluso WhatsApp. ¿Cómo generar un enlace directo a las reseñas de tu ficha? Existen varias plataformas para crear el link directo hacia las reseñas de tu ficha de Google My Business, cada una tiene sus ventajas y desventajas, pero, aquí tienes la más sencilla: Crear enlace a través de Google Review Link Generator –WhiteSpark Entra en la herramienta de WhiteSpark haciendo clic aquí. Escribe el nombre de tu empresa en el buscador. Se generará un link automáticamente hacia las reseñas de tu empresa. *Fuente: https://www.tmwebs.es/como-generar-un-link-para-escribir-resenas-directas-en-google-my-business/ Te llegará un email con el link y además un código QR que podrás enseñar a tus clientes para que te hagan las reseñas en el momento de terminar una obra.

In this episode, Near Media's Mike Blumenthal highlights the Google trends we should all be paying close attention to, discusses the evolution and importance of images in Google Business Profile, and introduces upcoming Near Media consumer research that could change how we look at searcher behavior.Listen to learn:What the future of Google Business Profile might look likeWhere to go to improve your Google and Google Business Profile knowledgeThe part ads and monetization play in the future of Google Business ProfilePLUS a surprising fact about what consumers do and don't care about in reviewsRESOURCESFollow Mike on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mblumenthalMike's profile on the Google Business Profile Community Help Forum: https://support.google.com/profile/1779682?sjid=8164595187474410917-EUMike has an open email policy: mike@blumenthals.comMike's older local search blog, which he keeps alive as an archive: https://blumenthals.com/blog/The Near Memo - Near Media's Podcast: https://www.nearmedia.co/memo/Sterling Sky blog: https://www.sterlingsky.ca/blog/BrightLocal blog: https://www.brightlocal.com/insights/Whitespark blog: https://whitespark.ca/blog/Near Media: https://www.nearmedia.co/How to Upload and Manage Google Business Profile Photos: https://www.brightlocal.com/learn/google-business-profile/optimization/photos/Dispute a removed Google Business Profile photo or video with this form: https://support.google.com/business/gethelp

Tiktok IS about Local but not the way you thinkWhile the Wall Street Journal thinksTikTok holds companies hostage and a small business in Philadelphia thinks it is unfair to get so many fake reviews, there is no denying that Tiktok has scale. While it hasn't really provided any real local discovery options, any given video can get so much traction that it can be felt at the most local of levels. Google Perspectives: innovation for the SERPs or bandaid to prevent social media flight?Google has rolled out a new mobile CTA at the top of many serps called Perspectives which provides a dedicated area at the top of the  search result for social media related commentary on the topic of your search. Depending on the query intent it might show first in the radio buttons or it might be last but it includes YouTube, Reddit, Quara and Twitter (amongst others) commentary on the topic. Many think that things have become less useful on Google; too many ads, too much spam, et cetera, and Google has to respond to it. The question is whether this is an adequate response.New Google GBP feature “By Owner” & new Whitespark tool reflect reality that GBP is rented not ownedGoogle is now highlighting “all” owner controlled GBP content in one tab; By owner in the mobile business profile. It includes the business description and their updates (aka Posts). It is not clear why a user would ever select or be curious about that tab. Whitespark has released a new dashboard that tracks the changes that users and Google regularly make to all of the other data in the business profile like phone number, address, categories, URLs etc. and reports these annoying changes back to the business owner. When viewed together, any rational business should be able to understand that they control very, very little of their own profile on Google and what they do control is unlikely to be seen. The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.NearMemo Ep118Subscribe to our 3x per week newsletter at https://www.nearmedia.co/subscribe/

Running a roofing business is a journey fueled by blood, sweat, and tears. No matter how much money you have, you want to optimize your marketing dollars to get the most bang for your buck. Today's show will be helpful for roofers at any and every stage of the business, whether you're a grizzled veteran in the business or a rookie who is just starting. Let's talk about how to best spend those marketing dollars!   Tim Brown is the owner/CEO of the Hook Agency, where he teaches people how to optimize their websites, improve their SEO, and drive more Google traffic to their websites. His marketing strategies help contractors focus their marketing on their best customers. Tim has been featured on several episodes of The Roofer Coach, and we are glad he's here to share more marketing insights with us today.   Before we jump into the conversation with today's guest, my co-host, John DeLaurier, and I are discussing how our contractor mastermind groups work. The benefits to these groups are numerous, and the camaraderie and collaboration go a long way in helping us solve problems that are common in our industry. If you'd like more information, visit The Roofer Mastermind.   What you'll hear in this episode: Guidelines for spending marketing dollars in fiscally-responsible ways Where to focus and where to start to market to your ideal customer 5 steps to market your roofing business: Build your brand with a clear, memorable, and specific name, logo, message, story, and tagline. Pay attention to your Google Business Profile and Google Local Service Ads, making sure that your NAP (name, address, and phone #) listings are consistent.  Get more reviews on a regular basis. Have a professional website design that speaks to your customer.  Start small as you begin your SEO journey, but start with a plan.  The difference in a good website and a bad website How the Hook Agency does website design, and how they created the website for DeLaurier Roofing Resources: Connect with Tim Brown and the Hook Agency: www.hookagency.com   Whitespark listing service mentioned Previous Episodes with Tim Episode 208: Attract More Website Visitors That Turn Into Appointments That Turn Into Sales with Tim Brown Episode 255: Attract More Website Visitors That Turn Into Appointments That Turn Into Sales with Tim Brown Episode 267: How To Design A Website To Convert Visitors Into Sales, with Tim Brown Episode 294: When To Bring Your Marketing In House with Tim Brown Time is running out! Are you eligible for the Employee Retention Credit (ERC)? Visit www.rpcfinancial.com to find out! Do you need help with your books? We have a certified Quickbooks pro who is waiting to help you! Email John or Dave or contact us on Instagram for more information! Connect with John DeLaurier:  www.calldrr.com, Instagram, and Facebook Connect with Dave via text message: 510-612-1450 Let me know if you'd like to join one of our new Mastermind groups for contractors. Email me: dave@theroofershow.com or visit The Roofer Mastermind to sign up. Download my FREE 1-Page Business Plan template at www.theroofershow.com. Contact me about one-on-one coaching at www.theroofercoach.com. We need reviews of the podcast! Please leave a five-star review. It matters! Vetted Sponsors of the Roofer Show Check out the programs that will help you gain confidence in your sales process, become a better leader, and build a winning sales team at Salestransformationgroup.com/roofershow Tee up the sale and make a great first impression by having a friendly, professional receptionist answer your phone with Ruby Receptionists. Use this link for up to $150 off your first month's service! get.ruby.com/theroofercoach Be the modern-day contractor! We help you leverage technology to generate, organize and maximize commercial roofing leads. Find out more about Peak Leads at Peakleads.io. Automate your systems and do follow-ups better! Check out ProLine and use promo code “Dave50” for 50% off your first month's service!

SEO for Photographers - Episode 60Creating Local Citations - the Free MethodToday we talk about how you can build local citations manually - if you don't want to pay a service (like Whitespark) to do it for you. This process does take some effort, but these tips will help save time and prioritize the steps for you. In this episode...[1:21] The Manual (free) Method to Build Local Citations [1:44] Why are Citations important? (they help your local rankings!) [5:45] The High School Analogy[11:21] THE STEPS[11:26] Gather information In One Place [12:59] Check for Existing Citations[13:37] The Master List of Citations[14:07] This is Really Important ... [15:09] THE DATA AGGREGATORS [15:39] Data-Axle.com[16:00] NeustarLocaleze.biz[16:50] Foursquare.com[17:41] The 2nd Tier of Directories[19:07] The 3rd Tier of Directories[19:39] Local and Industry Directories[21:31] Subscribe for New Tool AlertsRESOURCES mentioned in this Episode ... Local Citations Spreadsheethttps://www.meredithshusband.com/blog/citations?utm_source=shownotes&utm_medium=podcastThe Local Search Ecosystemhttps://whitespark.ca/local-search-ecosystem/?via=meredidthshusbandSUBSCRIBE ... for notifications whenever I create new toolshttps://www.meredithshusband.com/subscribe?utm_source=shownotes&utm_medium=podcast Connect… taplink.cc/meredithshusbandwww.MeredithsHusband.com

SEO for Photographers - Episode 58How to Get Higher Local Rankings (part 2)We talk about the most important steps you can take to improve your website rankings in Google's local search results. (ie. the websites that appear at the top of Google - next to the map!) In this episode...[0:54] Two Types of Links for Local Business SEO[3:41] The Important Element for Local Links [4:48] The Goal When Building Local Links[5:13] How to Send LOCAL SIGNALS to Google[5:35] Types of Link to Acquire[7:35] The 2nd Type of Link [8:50] Are Local Links Worth Buying?[9:54] Community Engagement for SEO[10:19] Example: Posting Internships [12:08] Charities and Volunteering for SEO[12:38] Tip: Get Agreements Before Donating Services[13:18] Example: Get Links From Other Local BusinessesEpisode 50: (Jan 20, 2023) Improve Local Rankings with Whitespark  https://podcast.meredithshusband.com/1926553/12286115-improve-local-rankings-with-whitespark Connect… taplink.cc/meredithshusbandwww.MeredithsHusband.com

SEO for Photographers - Episode 50Using Whitespark to Improve Local RankingsHow do you get your local business listed in Google local results? Today we focus on one of the major factors that helps get websites into the Google Local Pack. In this Episode...[0:23] The LOCAL PACK and 3 Methods to Help You Get There[1:00] Reason #1: On-Site SEO[1:24] Reason #2: Google Business Profile[3:26] Reason #3: Local Citations (with Whitespark)[4:41] How Does Whitespark Help Local SEO[13:04] How to use the Whitspark Local Listing ServiceMeredith's husband said..."You either need to spend time or money on SEO."Listen to the December 19 episode for help with your Google Business Profile. WhiteSpark Local Link-Building Get 10% off with code: meredithshusbandDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.Connect… meredithshusband.start.pagewww.MeredithsHusband.com

A look back on 2022 and what took place for Leadferno and Whitespark. Features, sales, wins, challenges, hires, mistakes, and more are shared. We also look ahead to what kicks off 2023 for each of us.

Google has been on a review tear of late and many reviews are being nuked that the new filter “thinks” violates the TOS. But not all review take downs by Google are legit. And a new bug seems to be affecting Google Business Profiles: when Google pushes a Suggested edit update, the profile changes CID numbers and loses their reviews. Businesses that lose reviews need to be prepared for this eventuality and put in place a plan to recover the reviews if lost.  Darren Shaw of Whitespark discovered a new test by Google that shows how many in market reviews a reviewer left. On the surface this would appear helpful to shoppers looking to validate the reviewer and the reviews more easily. But like all reviews it is probably a false hope as location can be spoofed. Regardless, it surfaces the fact that Google is closely tracking and using the physical relationship between the reviewer and the business. In the forums, it is apparent that Google has consistently nuked more reviews from service type businesses which don't get reviewer visits and the further that reviewer is away, the more likely it is to be filtered. Most internet companies pay lip service to brand building but continue to favor short-term performance marketing. That typically means paid-search and paid social. AirBnB offers an interesting counterpoint and case study in decreasing reliance on paid search. The company just reported its "biggest and most profitable quarter" to date. On the company's Q3 earnings call, CFO Dave Stephenson said AirBnB's focus has been "on the overall brand ... and to be less reliant on search engine marketing." He explained that 90% of of the company's traffic is "direct or organic." Can other companies do the same? Yes but it requires a true commitment to puting the customer first and building a strong relationship based on trust and not just giving that idea lip service.The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.Near Memo Ep 89

Mike's Linksthehustle.co - https://link.thehustle.co/view/5f3c2443c6344e7987022ea6h9fcv.f760/72bf8cbbZero-Clicks Study - https://www.semrush.com/blog/zero-clicks-study/Webinar: Rankings Are Great, Conversions Are Greater. - https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_69s-QR6bTG-VvrS6Wc7iDQGoogle Maps has removed its COVID-19 layer - https://9to5google.com/2022/10/26/google-maps-covid-19-layer-2/GBP Suspension and Reinstatement Chaos - https://www.brightlocal.com/blog/google-business-profile-suspension-reinstatement-bug-chaos/Hacks to get back to the Old GBP Dashboard Mike Blumenthal on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1586754087080660992?s=12&t=NaNUY7w_DJFT7g65GfJdewCarrie's LinksMap Pack and Other Search features Disappeared - Dr. Pete - https://twitter.com/dr_pete/status/1585011516985978880Funny SEO Horror Stories | Local Search Forum - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/funny-seo-horror-stories.59548/Does the Text of a Google Review Affect Map Pack Rankings? - Joy Hawkins - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/does-the-text-of-a-google-review-affect-map-pack-rankings/Thanks to our LocalU SponsorsZipsprout- https://zipsprout.com/Places Scout - https://placesscout.com/Whitespark - https://whitespark.ca/Sterling Sky - https://sterlingsky.ca/

Mike's Linksthehustle.co - https://link.thehustle.co/view/5f3c2443c6344e7987022ea6h9fcv.f760/72bf8cbbZero-Clicks Study - https://www.semrush.com/blog/zero-clicks-study/Webinar: Rankings Are Great, Conversions Are Greater. - https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_69s-QR6bTG-VvrS6Wc7iDQGoogle Maps has removed its COVID-19 layer - https://9to5google.com/2022/10/26/google-maps-covid-19-layer-2/GBP Suspension and Reinstatement Chaos - https://www.brightlocal.com/blog/google-business-profile-suspension-reinstatement-bug-chaos/Hacks to get back to the Old GBP Dashboard Mike Blumenthal on Twitter - https://twitter.com/mblumenthal/status/1586754087080660992?s=12&t=NaNUY7w_DJFT7g65GfJdewCarrie's LinksMap Pack and Other Search features Disappeared - Dr. Pete - https://twitter.com/dr_pete/status/1585011516985978880Funny SEO Horror Stories | Local Search Forum - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/funny-seo-horror-stories.59548/Does the Text of a Google Review Affect Map Pack Rankings? - Joy Hawkins - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/does-the-text-of-a-google-review-affect-map-pack-rankings/Thanks to our LocalU SponsorsZipsprout- https://zipsprout.com/Places Scout - https://placesscout.com/Whitespark - https://whitespark.ca/Sterling Sky - https://sterlingsky.ca/

Matt's LinksRecent Google review filtering and different ways to ask for reviews/different options when sending review requests via Joy Hawkins on Twitter - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/missing-reviews-reviews-disappearing.59057/GBP suspension bug should be resolved now - Via Joy Hawkins on Twitter - https://twitter.com/JoyanneHawkins/status/1583497806412910592LSAs in the local finder - via Barry Schwartz at SERoundtable.com - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-search-local-pack-tests-refine-query-location-search-box-33170.htmlZocdoc showing on the SERPs via Colan Nielsen on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ColanNielsen/status/1582739806206894080Carrie's LinksWhat are the Habits of Successful Local SEO Experts? - Colan Nielsen - SterlingSky - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/what-are-the-habits-of-successful-local-seo-experts/Suds & Search 135 | Brian Barwig, Local SEO Manager at Sterling Sky - SearchLab Digital - https://searchlabdigital.com/blog/suds-search-135-brian-barwig/Thanks to our LocalU SponsorsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/Places Scout - https://placesscout.com/Whitespark - https://whitespark.ca/Sterling Sky - https://sterlingsky.ca/

Matt's LinksRecent Google review filtering and different ways to ask for reviews/different options when sending review requests via Joy Hawkins on Twitter - https://localsearchforum.com/threads/missing-reviews-reviews-disappearing.59057/GBP suspension bug should be resolved now - Via Joy Hawkins on Twitter - https://twitter.com/JoyanneHawkins/status/1583497806412910592LSAs in the local finder - via Barry Schwartz at SERoundtable.com - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-search-local-pack-tests-refine-query-location-search-box-33170.htmlZocdoc showing on the SERPs via Colan Nielsen on Twitter - https://twitter.com/ColanNielsen/status/1582739806206894080Carrie's LinksWhat are the Habits of Successful Local SEO Experts? - Colan Nielsen - SterlingSky - https://www.sterlingsky.ca/what-are-the-habits-of-successful-local-seo-experts/Suds & Search 135 | Brian Barwig, Local SEO Manager at Sterling Sky - SearchLab Digital - https://searchlabdigital.com/blog/suds-search-135-brian-barwig/Thanks to our LocalU SponsorsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/Places Scout - https://placesscout.com/Whitespark - https://whitespark.ca/Sterling Sky - https://sterlingsky.ca/

Allie Margeson, Director of SEO Services for Whitespark, joins Greg and David for this episode of the Near Memo. She takes a deeper dive into the logic behind, and the mechanics of, Whitespark's new three-tiered service offering which involves not just Google Business Profile optimization but website updates and linkbuilding.Allie and Whitespark have a unique perspective on serving small businesses that most agencies and SaaS companies ignore, due to the difficulty of serving them profitably. She shares some behind-the-scenes information about Whitespark's delivery model and go-to-market strategies that make this service effective for its clients and profitable for its bottom line.The Near Memo is a weekly conversation about Search, Social, and Commerce: What happened, why it matters, and the implications for local businesses and national brands.Near Memo Ep 85

In this episode, we bring you Part 2 of Joe's interview with Whitespark founder Darren Shaw, in which he provides a wealth of information on the most effective ways to boost your local rankings. Darren is a recognized authority on local search. Whitespark provides software and services to help businesses improve their local search rankings and conversions.

In this interview, Joe is joined by Darren Shaw, the founder of Whitespark, to talk about the most ways to boost your local search rankings. Darren is a recognized authority on local search. His company, Whitespark, offers software and services to help businesses improve their rankings and conversions from Google's local results. He also conducts an acclaimed annual survey with the top SEO experts from around the world to determine what is truly effective in driving rankings and conversions in local search. In part one of this interview, Darren discusses what Whitespark is all about, and debunks the top myths in local SEO

Mike's Links:OpenAI expands access to DALL-E 2, its powerful image-generating AI system - https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/20/openai-expands-access-to-dall-e-2-its-powerful-image-generating-ai-system/Ep 74: Amazon & Google pander to the FTC, American Privacy Act: Opt-In/Out Battle, Instagram goes local - https://www.nearmedia.co/ep-74/Construction worker wearing a high-vis vest with an ad for a personal injury lawyer - https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1551582109852106755Outstanding Local SEO Takeaways from MozCon 2022 - https://moz.com/blog/mozcon-2022-local-seo-insightsLocal Landing Page Checklist - https://ricketyroo.com/blog/local-landing-page-checklist/The Rising Importance Of Images In Google Search - https://ducttapemarketing.com/images-in-google-search/Aircam.ai • AI Powered Photo Checker - https://aircam.ai/google-visionStefan Somborac Messaging FAQ on Twitter - https://mobile.twitter.com/StefanSomborac/status/1549721775981953024How to read & reply to messages from your Business Profile - iPhone & iPad - Google Business Profile Help - https://support.google.com/business/answer/9114771?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOSGoogle Tests "Reviews Aren't Verified" Label - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-reviews-arent-verified-label-33788.htmlCarrie's LinksSpam in LSAs is rampant - Google doesn't seem to care?  - https://twitter.com/lenraleigh/status/1550557036269780993Tom Waddington shows a serp with 100 5.0 rated LSAs - mostly spam - multiple listings for same biz, etc. - https://twitter.com/tomwaddington8/status/1550855925623300098Google Local Service Ads Seeing A Lot Of Fake Reviews - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-local-service-ads-with-fake-reviews-33810.htmlPAA Back to normal levels - Google has never said why or admitted an issue - https://twitter.com/RangerShay/status/1550058170420166656Visitor update tab seen in the wild - https://twitter.com/CaseyABryan/status/1551265789445283846LocalU Tickets & Sponsors - https://localu.org/den22/#ticketsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/TheTransparency CO - https://askfortransparency.com/Whitespark

Mike's Links:OpenAI expands access to DALL-E 2, its powerful image-generating AI system - https://techcrunch.com/2022/07/20/openai-expands-access-to-dall-e-2-its-powerful-image-generating-ai-system/Ep 74: Amazon & Google pander to the FTC, American Privacy Act: Opt-In/Out Battle, Instagram goes local - https://www.nearmedia.co/ep-74/Construction worker wearing a high-vis vest with an ad for a personal injury lawyer - https://twitter.com/benedictevans/status/1551582109852106755Outstanding Local SEO Takeaways from MozCon 2022 - https://moz.com/blog/mozcon-2022-local-seo-insightsLocal Landing Page Checklist - https://ricketyroo.com/blog/local-landing-page-checklist/The Rising Importance Of Images In Google Search - https://ducttapemarketing.com/images-in-google-search/Aircam.ai • AI Powered Photo Checker - https://aircam.ai/google-visionStefan Somborac Messaging FAQ on Twitter - https://mobile.twitter.com/StefanSomborac/status/1549721775981953024How to read & reply to messages from your Business Profile - iPhone & iPad - Google Business Profile Help - https://support.google.com/business/answer/9114771?hl=en&co=GENIE.Platform%3DiOSGoogle Tests "Reviews Aren't Verified" Label - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-reviews-arent-verified-label-33788.htmlCarrie's LinksSpam in LSAs is rampant - Google doesn't seem to care?  - https://twitter.com/lenraleigh/status/1550557036269780993Tom Waddington shows a serp with 100 5.0 rated LSAs - mostly spam - multiple listings for same biz, etc. - https://twitter.com/tomwaddington8/status/1550855925623300098Google Local Service Ads Seeing A Lot Of Fake Reviews - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-local-service-ads-with-fake-reviews-33810.htmlPAA Back to normal levels - Google has never said why or admitted an issue - https://twitter.com/RangerShay/status/1550058170420166656Visitor update tab seen in the wild - https://twitter.com/CaseyABryan/status/1551265789445283846LocalU Tickets & Sponsors - https://localu.org/den22/#ticketsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/TheTransparency CO - https://askfortransparency.com/Whitespark

Erin Links:Google - GMB App Dead - https://support.google.com/business/answer/11402083Twitter Rolls Out Ability to “Unmention” - https://twitter.com/twittersafety/status/1546555047630159872Why Having A User-First Approach To SEO Is Important - Jesse McDonald - https://www.searchenginejournal.com/user-first-seo/456351/Google Indexing Problems - Barry Schwartz - https://searchengineland.com/google-confirmed-indexing-issue-affecting-a-large-number-of-sites-386526Content Consolidation Can Improve SEO - Dan Taylor - https://searchengineland.com/content-consolidation-seo-386518Carrie's LinksGoogle Discover Stories With TikTok, Facebook, YouTube For Destination Queries - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-discover-destinations-stories-33754.htmlGoogle Taking Action On Recent One-Star Review Scams & Blackmail Threats - https://www.seroundtable.com/google-one-star-review-scams-blackmail-33764.htmlRestaurants Face an Extortion Threat: A Bad Rating on Google (paywall) - https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/11/dining/google-one-star-review-scam-restaurants.htmlhttps://support.google.com/business/thread/171274322?hl=en - https://support.google.com/business/thread/171274322?hl=enLocalU Tickets & Sponsors - https://localu.org/den22/#sponsorsZipsprout - https://zipsprout.com/TheTransparency CO - https://askfortransparency.com/Whitespark - https://whitespark.ca/Leadferno - https://leadferno.com/SterlingSky - https://sterlingsky.ca/

Part 2 on what Leadferno and Whitespark are doing for marketing in 2022. Aaron talks about exploring paid search, co-webinars and hiring a service for cold outreach to book demos. Darren has been launching a ton lately and talks about their video marketing, landing pages and referrals.

The funny thing is that many businesses are paying for Google ads but not taking advantage of the free advertising space in their Google Business profiles. In this Expert Insight Interview, we welcome Darren Shaw, the founder of Whitespark.

Darren and Aaron talk about the SaaS marketing strategies for Whitespark and Leadferno in 2022. We covered marketing your SaaS features, podcast interviews and events. In covering just some of what we are doing - we declared this part 1, with part 2 to come! No doubt marketing your SaaS is so important in 2022.

Each week, Greg and Ben answer your questions on digital marketing for local businesses … local search engine optimization (SEO), Google Business Profile, social media, email marketing, websites, online advertising and more.Updates and QuestionsMissing reviews survey. Product post bug. Justifications are showing up on Google Maps.WhiteSpark developes duplicate finder.What more can I do besides optimizing websites and getting good reviews to become more successful?Is it possible to get a listing to rank in multiple categories? Should I set up a new GBP for a new service I'm adding to my business? Has there been an increase in GBP suspensions recently? Is it possible to merge a business listing and a practitioner listing? Should I have a separate practitioner listing in addition to an office listing? Can you run a plumbing business out of your home and show the address or does not showing the address make a difference in ranking?Can I have multiple GBP listings at different locations with only one website? Is there a legitimate way to suspend my own GBP profile so it no longer displays anywhere? How do I rank in nearby cities in addition to the city in which the business is located? Is there any way to find out what the address is on a SAB when I control the GBP? Should I have my business name followed by my personal name on GBP when I go by my personal name on LinkedIn? If I have a template website do I need a different one for SEO? Would Google allow Real Estate Brokers to own the GBP of their agents?Should I use a tracking number for a location with two businesses and only one phone number?  At an address with lots of businesses with the same category, should I switch to a home address and SAB?What should I do if I don't get confirmation emails of redressal forms when reporting a spam listing? How do I delete departments in GBP if I have no access?When updating my listings and key citations after moving locations from a local agency, should I use my home address? What are the effects if the business changed its name but everything else remains the same? If a practitioner has a GBP and the practice/business also has a GBP, where would you suggest users place their reviews? What should I do if GBP keeps directing me to claim a duplicate one?What should I do if my business doesn't show up when searching the business name, but does with a generic one? What should I focus on in my homepage when I have several categories I can rank for?Does a permanently closed business eventually disappear from the listings?Links mentioned in this session are available on our website at https://localmarketinginstitute.com

A website is an important part of any business, whether it's a brick-and-mortar store or an online company. It's the first impression that potential customers will see.  There are several ways to build a site, but there are some specific issues to keep in mind when starting from scratch.  IN THIS EPISODE...[00:24] Today topic: What do you do when you're starting from scratch [01:12] Google domain names [03:10] The bare minimum to launch a website [04:42] Getting a site listed in Google local listings [08:44] Yext v. Whitespark v. Semrush [15:15] How many words should be on a web page[18:06] Identify where you're getting leads topics discussed: domain names, launching your website, web directories, Squarespace. MEREDITH'S HUSBAND SAYS…"If you're launching a site from scratch, consider using Squarespace. It's quick, looks decent, and is relatively inexpensive compared to starting with WordPress. Launch a WordPress site later.”CONNECT WITH US…Website: https://www.thewebinaut.com/merediths-husband/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meredithshusband/LINKS MENTIONED…  Google Domains Reliable $12 domains - without upsellingAdding Analytics to Wordpress [blog] To add Google Analytics to a WordPress site, try the simple plugin: Site Kit by Google. Adding Analytics to Squarespace [blog] To add Google Analytics to a Squarespace site: click SETTINGS in the home menu, click ADVANCED...Google Analytics Conversions See how to create "conversions" with Google AnalyticsWhiteSpark Local Link-Building Get 10% off with code: meredithshusbandDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

A look ahead at what 2022 holds for Whitespark and Leadferno. Aaron and Darren lay out their hopes and wished for what they can build, accomplish, market and sell in the next year. 2022 should be a year of big growth for both SaaS companies.

Link building is the process of gaining links to your page from other relevant sites on the internet. We talk this week about building links with the goal of getting your website into the "local pack" of Google - the group of 3 websites displayed just beneath the map in local searches. This is one of the first steps to get your website into those listings. I explain the easiest and quickest way to do it in this episode.IN THIS EPISODE …[02:12] How to improve website structure for better SEO and conversions [08:28] Why you should build links as a local business owner[09:23] Link building explained[10:42] The importance of building links for your website[11:18] How Google determines website quality & relevancy[12:10] Types of links[13:28] What is Local Pack & how to get listed [18:29] Link building with WhiteSpark  [22:16] SummaryMEREDITH'S HUSBAND SAYS … The more content you can put around your events, the better you'll rank.The more the number of links you have on your site, the better the visibilitySEO is basically answering two questions for Google, what your website is about, and how good it is.LINKS & RESOURCES ...WhiteSpark: https://www.thewebinaut.com/blog/whitespark CONNECT WITH US ...Web: https://www.thewebinaut.com/merediths-husband/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/meredithshusband/topics:  Link building, website link building, link building strategy, internal links, SEO best practices. WhiteSpark Local Link-Building Get 10% off with code: meredithshusbandDisclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

FULL SHOW NOTES[INTRO music]0:00:11.4 Aaron Weiche: Episode 31, SaaS is a marathon, not a sprint.0:00:16.2 INTRO: Welcome to the SaaS Venture Podcast. Sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrapped SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins and losses shared in each episode from Aaron Weiche of Leadferno, and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.0:00:42.2 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture Podcast. I'm Aaron.0:00:45.4 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.0:00:47.0 AW: And if SaaS was a sprint, I would just already be collapsed at the finish line. And I probably wouldn't have finished first in my heat anyway Darren just...0:00:58.4 DS: Yeah, me too.[laughter]0:01:00.6 AW: COVID has taken its toll on my physical well-being. I need to keep working on getting that back under control, so... How have you been? 0:01:10.9 DS: Oh, I've been so busy. I've been...0:01:14.6 AW: Yes you have.0:01:15.4 DS: It's... The last few days have been nice 'cause I'm like, "Oh, just got so much free time now." But the summit, yeah, so we put on another local search summit, 30 speakers, three days, Holly, that is an endeavor. It's a lot of work to put on a virtual conference like that. And so it was all-consuming for the last couple of months, for sure. And all consuming for Jessie Low our marketing manager for the past six to eight months, for sure. And it was very successful. So I thought it was great. We had 3000 registered attendees. Lots of fantastic feedback. I think we did an even better job this year than we did last year, incredible speakers, an incredible talk. So I thought it was great. We came out profitable in the end. So, we're happy to break even because it's more of a marketing play than a money-making thing.0:02:13.2 DS: And a brand exercise, and we're really just trying to build our brand with the summit. And so we definitely got that and we didn't lose money on it. So there was some profit in the end so that was good. We're all a success. I have a post-mortem call scheduled with Jessie this afternoon and Sydney to discuss what went well, what didn't go well, and what changes we'd make for next year. That's what's going on with me. That's it.0:02:40.8 AW: Yeah, no, and I totally get... And you and I were texting a little bit last week during it, and even inside of those three days you had highs and lows, right? 0:02:51.6 DS: Oh man, it's the roller coaster of emotion. It's just like, yeah, I felt kind of low on the second day. I was like, "Oh, why are we doing this? My life is a failure."[laughter]0:03:05.7 DS: And then like day three, at the end of it, I just felt like just so elated with how well it went. That's just the life of a founder.0:03:15.0 AW: Yep, no. Same roller coaster as being a founder, right. I probably should have just taken a screenshot where one of your text was like the low, like, "Oh I'm second guessing everything." And then a couple of texts later was the next day and you're like, "Everything is awesome."[laughter]0:03:34.1 DS: Totally. Yeah, that's how I felt about the summit. Now I've kinda settled somewhere in the middle. Just trying to evaluate it logically and think about like, alright, is this a valuable thing for us to do and do we wanna invest so much effort into it next year? 0:03:48.6 AW: Well, one thing that I definitely noticed from the sales side of me is you put in a lot more calls to action for your products and services and things like that, and the breaks and slides and different things like that. Do you have zero visibility... Right, we're on the couple of work days outside of the event ending, do you have any visibility to... If that's made an impact or will it be something that you'll let run a little bit and then evaluate? 0:04:23.0 DS: Yeah, we've had a couple of really big days since the summit. And so I do think like I could tell just straight up finances being like, "Well, that was a good day." And then a couple days later, "Well, that's another good day." And so seeing that and noticing how close that was to the close of the summit feels definitely like there is a direct business boost. More sign-ups that kind of stuff. And so I wanna give it a bit more time because a lot of people don't take immediate action. They're like, "Oh, I saw the summit, I learned about this thing at Whitespark summit." And a week or two, or three or four later, they finally get around to signing up for the thing or trying our software. And so I'm gonna give it a month and then I wanna do a comparison of our accounts, like new accounts and new sign-ups from that period... From the last period and cross-reference it with attendees at the summit and then we'll see. Yeah.0:05:21.1 AW: Awesome. Well, I can only think or feel that it will be stronger than other things you've done just because I have either been a part or have watched other things that you've done all the way from your weekly videos to things like that. And this by far in a way was your most sophisticated or visual call to actions with what Whitespark offers and does. So I think that's a really good step forward, as you and I have discussed in some of our conversations like, "Man, you crush at education, you crush it, putting stuff out there." You have a lot of opportunity in the trade. I'll give you all these great things. Please just listen to how our tools and services can support you in some of these things that you're doing. And just being a little more firm in asking them to do a free trial or to look into your services and tools. I felt like you really... I was looking at that and part of me was like, "Oh, this is good. This is good, do those things Darren." So good job.0:06:30.5 DS: Yeah, calls to action. You gotta call them to action, if you want them to take action, you should give them a call.0:06:36.3 AW: Yes, it's great, it's great to be top of mind because of all the goodwill and how you've positioned yourself as an expert... Yeah, those things are totally great. And so in six months, if they have a customer that needs something specific that folds into that. Yes, you will likely be top of mind because of how you've established yourself. But there's a lot of people that you can get to take a next step, while they're also feeling that euphoria and feeling like, "Oh, I'm learning new things, it's time to do new things, it's time to change a tool I'm using or to start using something like this, and now I have trust and I have excitement and I wanna do it right now." So just make that road really... Or that bridge really easy for them to cross.0:07:19.4 DS: Totally. Well, you're a master at all of that, so I always appreciate your advice and yeah, I agree that that's a key thing that I'm really trying to get better at, and I appreciate you pushing me on some of that.0:07:32.3 AW: Yeah, well, like I said, if you look at the world of like, you can only get what you give, you give. So I totally think you asking for a little get, that's no problem at all. And speaking of that, you had to compile and put out the local search ranking factors report as well, which is a massive undertaking.0:07:56.1 DS: That... Yeah, so that was a big part of what consumed me leading up to the conference, 'cause not only did I have to deal with some organization. Jessie, of course, took care of most of it. But it was really just compiling the data and analyzing the data and putting my own presentation together. That was a ton of work for sure, and so now that that's off my back, I just feel very light right now, but I do have to get around to writing up my findings into a blog post and get it published.0:08:26.3 AW: Yeah. When do you exhale harder? When you log off the summit on the last day? Or when you wake up the next day and you just don't have all of that hanging on you? 0:08:38.7 DS: Yeah. I felt pretty relaxed after the moment the summit ended, I was like, "Yeah cool, I don't have it, I don't have to do a anything." And then the next day, actually, I had a bunch of wrap-ups stuff I had to deal with, so... Yeah.0:08:55.1 AW: So you clicked close and then you're just like, "Joe, get me a beer." [chuckle]0:09:01.3 DS: Well, I would have gotten my own beer. I would never... I would never do that, that would not go over very well. So I'm very capable of fetching my own beer.0:09:11.1 AW: I just meant in a celebratory way, right? 0:09:14.4 DS: Yes, I definitely did go down to the beer fridge, yes, immediately.0:09:18.8 AW: And just possibly being passed out in your chair. Like nonstop, three days, all of the emotions, everything else, you might have just been tapped out, so.0:09:29.2 DS: I was very tapped out. Absolutely.0:09:31.3 AW: Oh, awesome.0:09:31.3 DS: How about you? What's up with you these days? 0:09:34.7 AW: Since we talked just the week before we were launching, so Leadferno has launched, and it's gone okay, there hasn't been any part of it where I'm like, "Oh my gosh." We talked before, I wanted to hit 50 trials, and you said 10. And yeah, we were closer to 10 than 50, so you were spot on there ...0:10:04.3 DS: Wait, didn't I say the opposite? You said 10, and I was like, "No way, you can get like 700."0:10:09.8 AW: No, no, no [laughter] you were more of the voice of reason with it, but it was... It definitely went well. And I look at... Right, it's not like the world was waiting for this, and the fact that news broke, that Leadferno has launched, didn't send people running into the streets and...0:10:31.4 DS: Yeah. I did see it on CNN actually, that was huge. That was huge.0:10:35.6 AW: That would be bad. I can't imagine a scenario where I get that kind of press of something great, it would be like, Leadferno took down the internet, everyone is mad. I don't know what else.0:10:47.5 DS: That's right. Weren't you responsible for that Facebook outage? That was you guys, right? Just so much traffic, you just ruined the servers.0:10:56.2 AW: I was... That was interesting, between the... When the whistle blower interview happened, and then the next day they have that outage, it's hard to believe like, "Oh, maybe someone inside was also like, yeah, I'm not gonna go that far, but I'll sabotage something on the inside to make an outage."0:11:09.4 DS: I know. That would get me wondering.0:11:11.9 AW: Yeah, very interesting situation. So things have been progressing well as we get more into our topic, I can talk about some of my early learnings and then just the actions you have to take off of those learnings and conversations and things like that. But mostly working really hard on just any amount of publicity, trying to do as many podcast interviews, webinars, presentations like mine at the local search summit. So just trying to get as many mentions, shares, links, all of those things. Because it takes a lot to get that ball rolling. I'm just starting to see some of it now, where we're getting this past week, where I'm getting some inbound leads, that it's like, "Okay, great." And without... It isn't any one of those things, it's just knowing like, "Okay, I now have 10 of those things out in the universe, and a month ago I had only two or three."0:12:19.9 AW: So continuing to work on those and then lastly, I spent all last week in San Francisco and was at the SaaStr Annual, which is probably the largest SaaS conference. Normally, it's like a 10,000 plus person event, they limited it to 5000, it was all outdoors, it was at a fair grounds in San Mateo, just south of San Francisco. And yeah, it was really, really well done, you had to be vaxxed to attend, you had to have a negative test within 72 hours, and they provided test there, so like the day before the event, we went there to pick up our badges and got a COVID test there, and that all worked out well, and yeah, you were just... You were always outdoors.0:13:17.5 AW: And yeah, just felt... I felt really easy. It was great, it was great to be around people and energy, it was nice to have in-person learning, and then also be able to network and talk with people. It was just so great to talk shop with vendors that were there, or talk shop with other people running other SaaS businesses in between. So it was definitely like an uplifting week for sure. It was one of those like, "Oh man, I've missed a bunch of these things and I don't have another one on my calendar again," but it felt really good for three, four days to do all that.0:14:00.5 DS: That's amazing. I can't imagine the state of our particular province in Canada is really bad, our COVID situation is worse it's ever been. And so I dream of one day getting back to this, like being able to go to an in-person conference over here, I just... I miss everybody, I miss seeing people, I don't see anybody, to my immediate family.0:14:23.3 AW: Yeah, no, definitely. It's definitely tricky, but like I said, this one I looked at, alright, from all the measures that are there and everything else, I'm like for the state that things are right now, I couldn't ask them to go through too many other precautions and...0:14:43.8 DS: Sounds like they did a great job with all the... Being careful with things and trying to be as safe as possible at it. Do people wear masks outside or not really? 0:14:55.4 AW: I would say maybe 5%.0:14:58.0 DS: Sure.0:14:58.7 AW: I mean it was really very little. People... They could if you wanted to, when we went to check-in, we were masked the first day until we tested, and were tested negative. But yeah, once we were then at the event, and it does feel where you're like, "Okay, all of these people," yes, we all have different interactions and who we've been around, and how we conduct our personal choices on our own time. But when you... It definitely felt a little bit of like, "Alright, everybody here is vaccinated, everybody here has been tested within a few days of being here." So... I don't know, it felt as secure as it could, I guess.0:15:41.1 DS: Any mind-blowing take-aways? Where you're like, "Oh my God, that's the greatest idea. I'm definitely gonna do that at Leadferno," you just went to a three day SaaS conference.0:15:49.3 AW: I know, I mean, the short answer to that is no. And I think there's some interesting things in... And this is kind of the segue, this came up like, this is what I wanted to talk about in the phrase of marathon not a sprint. One, I look at in prior years, this is the fourth or fifth SaaStr that I've been to, and I usually have had one of those like... Just something more probably tactical to help bring back to the business or put into it. I think two things, my current state, one, I've spent a good amount of time and have done a lot of things in SaaS where... And heard a lot of, read a lot of... So you have all of those aspects. So you're coming at it from a different position, and in Leadferno being so new, there's also what we have in front of us for next steps and biggest needs are really known, and really the only things we should be focusing on.0:16:57.1 DS: Sure.0:16:57.6 AW: So there's a little bit of... There are plenty of things that I looked at, especially when you're looking at software solutions and things like that. And I found myself just saying, "I can't wait until I need a solution for that."0:17:09.5 DS: Yeah, totally.0:17:11.2 AW: I don't have the volume or the complexity or any of these things to even worry about that or need that, I have my own fish to fry right now. So yeah, it was kind of a combo of those two things. But really the big thing for me... And that's again, what led to the title of this is I walked away just really realizing that, no matter if you're where I'm at like me, where it's like, "Hey, we have a $1000 in MRR right now, and we got a long way to go to get us where we need to be." And then you're talking to someone else at the conference that's at $250,000 ARR, and they wanna be... They wanna get to half a million by the end of the year, or someone who's at half a million and they can't wait till they're a million or someone at a million, and they wanna be five or 10. Everyone is at a stage in their company, and that stage has its challenges and things to figure out, and some of them might be specific to the company and the founders and what they're good at and what they lack experience in or have as a challenge, and others are just systematic of the stage that you're at.0:18:24.8 AW: Maybe it sounds weird, but I like... The biggest thing I got was some calm out of it. Because at the stage I'm at right now, it's like you feel like every day matters so much to get something done and accomplish and to talk to a handful of prospects and do whatever else. And the conference just really made me zoom out and realize everything I do in these days is important, it is all contributing. What this really is, it's a long-term game of survival, it's running the long race, even though every day is like a sprint, you're pealing 100 yards off the marathon that you're trying to... To try run with it. So that was probably my biggest take away, and that's what led me... That's why I texted you, I'm like, "Yeah, we need to record. This is what I'd like to talk about." And it was really helping me with that frame of mind, and so that's where I just thought us talking about, what is... What is your... What is what. "What's keeping you up at night right now? That feels like a super short-term thing, but solving, doing that short-term thing is what allows you to stay in the game, to run the marathon to be long-term."0:19:39.0 DS: Yeah. If I was to answer that question for myself, it's really like every day we're sprinting on our existing applications, which is frustrating because it slows progress on the bigger vision of building a new product. So if I think about our long-term or two years, five years, then I know exactly what we're gonna have at that point, but it just feels painful to get there, it's just like... I have to find some calm because it feels like it's just taking forever. And so something that I thought was gonna be launched by the end of September is now looking more like the end of October, and then it just everything gets longer and longer. I understand the reasons for it when I talk to the Dev team and then I'm like, "Oh hey, how come were so behind?" It's like, "Well, because we just spent three weeks fixing that problem on our other product." So what do you do? It's really tough to get there, and I think you just gotta recognize that it's the way it's gonna be. It's always gonna take longer than you think.0:20:49.8 AW: Yeah. Unfortunately. Some of the decisions to not make it take longer end up being just really hard decisions where... We've had these conversations before where you have to say no to something else because it's getting in the way of being able to accomplish those other things. And when you're weighing out what's the priority, what's the impact, and sometimes just really... Who's this decision for? Is this so I sleep easier at night? Or will this actually cost us something? Do we gain something in doing this? Does it cost us something in not doing it? There's just so many strands to it, and as founders and leaders, we can just be so emotional about those decisions where maybe they're not an emotional decision sometimes, but because we're so invested, we can't separate ourselves from those at the same time.0:21:48.8 DS: Yeah, totally. What's keeping you up at night? What are the things that you're struggling with? 0:21:57.5 AW: Yeah. I have two just big items right now, one was a known is like, I knew this was gonna be what people were saying, I need this, you're missing this, whatever else, and that was our mobile apps. So one, we made the decision in being a communication service and around text messaging, that we weren't gonna build... When we built our web app first for power users more than anything else, that we weren't going to build it responsive. Because if they were able to use a responsive version of it in web, from snappiness of it, access of it, push notifications, there's a bunch of different things and when we outline our technical scope and where users were interact, it was like, yes, it would allow them to use it on mobile. But then if we had users that didn't download the app and just kept using it on mobile, like that experience was gonna fall short, it was gonna degrade over time because we were... Once we have native apps, we weren't gonna put anything into that.0:23:11.8 AW: So, we always clearly knew we were gonna build a web app first because that was gonna be more difficult based on our approach and our build, and it would allow us the easier way to do some of the settings and account-based things and whatever else. So that then when we did a fast follow and we built the mobile apps, they would be streamlined only focused on the communication back and forth with the customer and contacts and things like that, and be lightweight and be around, centered on productivity with it.0:23:44.7 AW: And we even made the choices right in using Flutter for development, so it's like right now, we're a couple of weeks into work on the mobile apps, and that work is just going 6X faster than if we have built in one language and then we say, "Alright, now we're gonna go and build in these others," and if anything, we're just removing things only related to mobile or only related to the web. So that one was the known and we knew it and it's on the road map and we knew that there would just be... We're gonna launch and then there's gonna be four to six, eight weeks max, where people are like, "Oh, I love this, but I want it on my phone." And then we just have to say, alright, we have to wait for this time.0:24:29.7 DS: Do you feel particularly happy with the 10 sign-ups that you have right now, considering you don't have some of these things? Like, you know like, "Hey, this is our entry level experience and we're already meeting your needs, and so we're doing pretty good, we don't have the mobile app, we don't have integrations, we don't have some of these things that you feel like you need." And so does that make you feel pretty good about where you're at already? 0:25:00.2 AW: A little bit. I would definitely be worried if I had no one, then I'd be like, "Oh boy, we got a problem here." But yeah, I would probably... I would feel better if I was at two to three times where we're at with paying customers right now. That would just... A little bit more statistical but I'm happy we're slowly working our way out of counting customers on two hands. That's great that we're moving on to toes now.0:25:31.1 DS: That's right.0:25:32.7 AW: So I would love to exceed fingers and toes, I'd feel a little bit better on that side. It does affect... Especially the way I am like, I am a little bit apprehensive on sales calls and demos, just 'cause I'm like, "I know this is gonna get asked." I've done enough of these now, I've done somewhere between 50-75 demos, and it's almost every time. So it's easy to understand and yeah, the entire time I've always had an answer that like, "That mobile would be a fast follow," all of those kind of things.0:26:07.9 AW: And then we discussed, and I played out the scenario in my head, if we did things the opposite, if we would have done just mobile only, the load of what we would have had to build for some of the settings things and things like all the saved replies and stuff like that, would have been a lot trickier. So we wouldn't have gotten to market as fast with our initial product, then developing the web would be a little bit... So it's like doing things the other way, so to say like, "Oh, well to get rid of your mobile objection, you should have just built mobile first." That would have caused some other problems and issues and elongated the process a little bit, so... I feel good with the way that we approached it and what we bit off first with what's there. And it's just living through the frustration of the next handful of weeks where it's like, "I'm gonna get the question, I don't have an immediate yes. It's coming. Here's what we're predicting right now, as far as the date."0:27:10.1 DS: I often think of like building a SaaS company and a SaaS product, sort of like building a high-rise tower in the middle of the city, and it's like you build the first floor and you're like, "Move on in!" "Yeah, we're already leasing the first floor." "I know we're still building like the next 100 floors on top of it, but, hey, we're ready for you to move in. Don't mind the construction."0:27:37.5 AW: It's only gonna get better.0:27:39.2 DS: Exactly. Yeah. Believe we're putting a pool in on the third floor, we're putting in a fitness center on the fifth floor. It's gonna be great.0:27:49.8 AW: No, I mean you're totally... I hear that. And that fits in with the marathon, not a sprint analogy as well.0:27:57.2 DS: Totally, yeah.0:27:57.4 AW: Where it's like, yeah, you're not just building a single story building, and you're done and whatever else. It's like, "No, you're trying to get this thing to exponentially add floors continually to what's there. And even on that side, I think I can comment on some of that like, messaging and the evolution of those things too, but, the second item that's of main focus is just integrations, and this is the one where I knew this would come up, I didn't know it would come up so strongly and repeatedly.0:28:34.3 DS: Right.0:28:34.9 AW: And I think that being a blind spot is kind of a couple of things. One is just maturity in time, where, you know the last time I had this immature of a product was five years ago, and the world of software is a lot different, and the expectation has become that your software can talk to others. And then I hadn't built something that was so ingrained in the sales and communication process as you know, what GatherUp was and sending surveys afterwards and things like that, like the integration needs there were very light and some very straightforward things. We get asked instead of, I thought, "Oh, I bet about 25%, 30% of the time we're gonna get asked about integrations, we know what we need to do, they're more on our medium plan timeframe instead of short-term." But yeah, it became super clear to me in the first two weeks after launch, like this needs to be on our short-term plan. We have to get something accomplished here, because this is also being brought up 80%, 90% of the time.0:29:47.5 DS: Are you able to identify based off of your initial calls, like, "What is the number one we have to integrate with this as soon as possible because it's so common, and it's like you're getting a lot of people saying, "This is the thing."0:29:58.4 AW: Yeah, absolutely.0:30:01.1 DS: What is the thing? 0:30:02.0 AW: Yeah, top is CRMs. It's all updating the conversation into the contacts or having the contact created because the conversation is created, so that by far. The action that we've taken from that is we immediately started to look and talk to a couple of freelancers and then a vendor that's all they do is build apps, Zapier apps and integration, so we talked to a couple of those and we selected a vendor, and then we just started work this week on our Zapier app.0:30:40.7 DS: That's interesting. So you're outsourcing. You're like, we gotta get this to market quick, this is necessary, and so you don't have the dev resources, so you're like, "We're going to hire this outside team to start building our integrations right now."0:30:53.6 AW: Yeah, so one, having built a Zapier app before, I know that it's right, its own kind of nomenclature for how they want things done, and any developer can read up on it, study it, do whatever else, but I'd be asking... I looked at it, I'd be taking one of our small team and saying, "Okay, none of you have ever done this before, but within a few days, you'll get it." "You'll have some blind spots and some pitfalls and whatever else, but I'm also pulling you off of something you know how to do really well and asking you to learn that new thing." And this is kind of a shorter term like a get it done type thing. So, when I weigh those things out, it's like, "Alright, I can take it to these guys, have delivery of this within 20 working days, and I'm not sacrificing someone else from the team, taking them from a strength and putting them into having to learn something new." So yeah, it was just really pretty easy to say like, "Okay, I would love if we weren't paying on top of till I get this accomplished," but this is gonna be... It's gonna be faster, quicker.0:32:03.6 AW: We're also getting their expertise because my last Zapier app we weren't integrating with CRMs, so I was able to say like, "Okay, here's similar products. What do you guys think we should be creating for triggers and actions and the integrations in the Zapier ecosystem?" And you know they have experience in doing this, so they're able to outline it and you know make it pretty clear on us what we needed to do, and also outline a couple of things like... Our product is built API-driven, the back-end is node, so we have all the APIs and everything else, but there's a few things for how a customer might wanna set up an integration and handle something that they're like, "You might wanna create variances of this or you might wanna make this more real-time and build a web hook off it," so they were able to outline some of those things that we can pick apart over to... We won't do all of them right away, but they have recommendations where we can say like, "Okay, we wanna try to get these one to two done while you're building, but then these other ones we know that they'll probably come up based on your experience and they're at least on our radar to start creating them."0:33:13.6 DS: Yeah, it makes me think about like it's like another aspect of that marathon is limited development resources. It's like you can only build so much. And so it's that constant prioritizing and pushing things to next month and pushing things to next quarter and this will be something that we're gonna tackle next year, and if I had double my dev team, triple, quadruple. I see some companies, they have like 100 developers and they have 100 developers, and I'm like, "How are you not pumping out incredible stuff every week?" It's like you have 100 developers, but your product looks like it hasn't done anything exciting for months. So, it blows my mind. I don't know how companies... I can't imagine. How does that happen when you get to that scale of a huge company and you're still not innovating? That's really bizarre.0:34:07.3 AW: Well, you end up with technical debt.0:34:10.9 DS: Yeah.0:34:11.2 AW: You end up with a lot of dependencies, you've likely built so much that there's no... And we got to this point six years in at GatherUp. There wasn't anything that was like a yes, no. It was all if or maybe or also was it attached to everything, 'cause it's not like, "Yeah, it just can't be this because and how we did this or how we built this other feature and this also interacts with that, it's now competing, or it just has to be... Or now we have to build something that controls this, so these two things can be handled separately." You definitely get a lot of that every time, right? The same analogy of building the building up, once you get to the 60th floor, there are things like, "Okay well, we put a pool in on the 20th floor, and because of the weight of that, we can't do that how we want to... How much higher we wanna build, so we gotta go back and rip the pool out or fortify that more like... " All those things build up for sure, so.0:35:16.4 DS: Yeah, I guess that's how it happens as you just keep building it gets more complicated. Everything has to talk to each other and I'm facing that right now. And it's like I like your outsourcing idea. I have this one thing as a founder, every week I got some new thing I wanna build, but we don't have dev resources to do it, and so I'm like, I just pinged my lead developer this morning being like, "Hey, I wanna build this thing. How about I get it done over in Upwork?" I made the mistake last time of building something in Upwork and then it being completely useless. We'd love to integrate it with our software eventually, and so it's that tricky balance of building something in a way with the right technology so that we can still use it and integrate it into our larger software vision for later.0:36:02.4 AW: That's where the Zapier app makes sense because it is kind of on an island, right? 0:36:08.4 DS: Totally, it's perfect.0:36:09.4 AW: Yes, they have to use their API, but it has to follow the rules and the structure of how you build the Zapier app. So in that case, it isn't something like, "Oh well, yeah, we had this person build it, but now it's in a different language. We can't just mold it into ours at any time. And we need them forever in the Upkeep," like our team can learn and pick apart how it works, and we can do our own Upkeep as we get on the road if we need to, or we can make the decision again that, "No, we'll have them update it 'cause it'll be faster and we're focused on other things."0:36:49.2 DS: Yeah.0:36:49.4 AW: But yeah, so much of it comes out at the end of the day is like, when you're small and you need efficiency, the most efficient thing is people doing what they do best. I even know it for myself, the things that I'm good at, I can get more done than anyone I know with the things I'm good at. The things that I suck at, those take 10 times longer, right? It's just like, oh my God, this is never gonna end because I stink at it. I'm teaching it to myself at the same time. I don't enjoy it, so I'm like putting it off or...0:37:21.1 DS: Yes.0:37:21.5 AW: Procrastinating.0:37:22.6 DS: Procrastinating. Oh, totally. I know that feeling, like big projects where you're like, "Oh I hate doing this work," and then it just takes 10 times longer because you just pick away at it here and there, you'll work for a little bit and not enjoy it, but yeah 100% I agree.0:37:36.9 AW: Yeah. And I can see that even with one of our developers, he was stuck on our Stripe and billing and that wasn't his favorite thing, and it was hard at points and had to re-factor some stuff really quickly and whatever else. And now that he's working on the mobile app, in his work patterns and what he's sharing, in just the time and effort being put into it, I can tell totally this excites him.0:38:06.0 DS: Yeah.0:38:06.9 AW: He's excited to work on it, and the output is so much different than, "Oh, course, another dead-end on this and having to figure out this, like, 'Oh, I got a challenge, but hey, I'm gonna get it solved 'cause I wanna see this work at its next stage.'" So.0:38:20.0 DS: Sure. Yeah. Just thinking about that floors analogy is just you're just slowly putting on one floor at a time, just stepping through it and it takes a long time to build a company and going back to what you said about companies at those different stages. Everyone's looking to grow, even when you get to $10million, $50 million ARR, you just have more stuff to sort out and you've got the next mile to complete of your marathon, the next floor to put on your building.0:39:00.1 AW: Yeah. No, absolutely correct and even the last thing that it sparked in my mind and then it led me to just doing some of it last night is like going back and aligning web copy to the types of conversations that I'm having with customers, right? So it's like some of the web copy I wrote in February and March when we launched the marketing site and got that up there. Well, I've had hundreds of conversations with prospects and friends and people in the space. Everything else since then and my story has evolved like I've... It's allowed me to craft it better and realize what are people interested in? 0:39:40.9 DS: Right.0:39:41.6 AW: Where do we better align with those things, and so it's like going down that and it brought me to like, "Oh, I need to go back and look at those things, right?" I put in a sprint before, I'm getting content up and getting out there like what we are, but I've run further now, so I need to re-analyze it and go back on it and know, yeah this... There's a better version of it and one that's more succinct to what I'm seeing resonate with customers and the types of things they're asking about, my content should be answering. So from that standpoint, it just really made me realize like, "Oh, don't just leave that stale content out there," because you've evolved a bunch since you wrote that, you need to go back and bring that back up and do something new with it one way or the other.0:40:35.0 DS: Yeah. It's constant evolution, constant revision, tweaking, changing, progressing, growing, it's like... I don't know if you wanna call it a marathon that never ends? Or is it just one marathon after another? 0:40:48.5 AW: An ultra marathon. [laughter]0:40:50.6 DS: Yeah. Ironman.  You just keep doing all these different marathons, and so I don't know if it's like each product launch, each phase of your product launch, is that a marathon? And then you start another one? I don't know what the best analogy is.0:41:05.7 AW: Sounds like it, but I think it points out, Darren the reason... Then I also think like the emotional and the personal aspect sides of it as founders. And I think... You and I do in this podcast, it has multiple benefits, it's important for us to be able to talk about things out loud, it makes us reflect on things, it allows us to hear what the other person is going through, so you don't feel like you're alone with it. So I just think those things are really important inside of it too, is like, as you're going through this because it is so grueling, because it's long-term, because... Sometimes at certain points, you're just trying to survive, you're not even trying... You're not even trying to run your best time in mile 13, you're just trying to freaking get through it, so you can get to the next part of it is like, you have to think about those kind of things for yourselves too. Do you have the right outlets, taking care of yourself, especially the mental side. I don't know, as we opened with this, like the physical side, I need to get better at lately, like I spend way too much time just on my computer. I need to do a little bit more on the health side of things, but all of those things are so important so that you can make the long-term. You just can't crush yourself in some of these cycles of, this is do or die, this has to happen now, I need to get this done. Those can take their toll.0:42:31.7 DS: Yeah. That constant as a founder there's just stuff, that never-ending to-do list, that weight of all of the things that need to get done, that you wanna get done in order to progress and grow the company is just... It's pretty heavy, it's a lot to carry.0:42:47.3 AW: Yep. So make sure you have an outlet, make sure you're talking about it, or just even... Listen, listen to others, to know you're not alone in it, right? 0:42:58.0 DS: Yeah. And I hope that some of our listeners are feeling the benefits of that too, you're not alone, we're all in this together.0:43:04.4 AW: No. Darren and I... I struggle every day with certain aspects and just gotta keep pushing ahead so you can make it tomorrow to figure out the things tomorrow.0:43:15.0 DS: Yep, every day... The struggle.0:43:18.6 AW: Alright. Well, hey, let's call it a wrap, great to catch up with you. Happy that your load is hopefully lightened and hopefully you guys can finish the year strong and heads down on getting platform to its next steps. I know that's just such a big evolution for you guys. I really hope that can be your singular focus as you close out the end of the year.0:43:44.5 DS: Thank you, it is coming together and good luck with your mobile app and your integrations and the next phase of Leadferno. I'm excited to watch you grow through the rest of this year too.0:43:54.8 AW: No. I would love for our next episode... Or maybe we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. One of our episodes, the end of the year will be like, "We did it," and we've accomplished these bigger things and then we'll still have a bunch of other problems. But sometimes I'd rather have a bunch of small problems than a couple of the big ones, 'cause it's a lot to push that boulder up hill.0:44:18.1 DS: Yeah. One marathon after another one, so once we get... Once we finish the marathon that we're currently on, then we can announce that we did it and discuss what our next one is.0:44:29.3 AW: There you go, you nailed it.0:44:31.0 DS: Alright, thank you, Aaron. Great to talk to you as always.0:44:34.4 AW: Great to catch up, Darren. Thanks everyone for listening, we always appreciate comments or questions via Twitter or email. And hopefully we'll see you again soon. Hopefully we hit record in a tighter cycle than six weeks this time again.0:44:52.3 DS: Yeah. I would really appreciate any reviews on the iTunes store, those are really helpful.0:45:00.9 AW: There you go, then others can find us. We appreciate new listeners, alright. Thanks everybody, talk to you soon, Darren.0:45:05.6 DS: Talk to you soon. Bye.[OUTRO music]

FULL SHOW NOTES[INTRO music]0:00:10.5 Aaron Weiche: Episode 29, Prioritize or Die.0:00:16.2 Intro: Welcome to the SaaS Venture Podcast, sharing the adventure of leading and growing a bootstrapped SaaS company. Hear the experiences, challenges, wins and losses shared in each episode from Aaron Weiche of Leadferno and Darren Shaw of Whitespark. Let's go.[music]0:00:42.5 AW: Welcome to the SaaS Venture Podcast. I'm Aaron.0:00:46.0 Darren Shaw: And I'm Darren.0:00:48.0 AW: Did you see what I did with that clickbait title of our episode today, Darren? 0:00:52.9 DS: I did actually. I wrote something different, but yours is way better, yeah, that's good. [chuckle]0:00:56.8 AW: I think I was mostly trying to avoid, right? You had wrote prioritization and I was like, that just sounds like a word that I will somehow mangle when we go to hit record, and then yeah, I just went all-out sensationalism and clickbait and...0:01:12.2 DS: And I actually think, not only is it clickbait-y, which is great, but it also was accurate. I think that it's really the theme of this episode.0:01:20.9 AW: Yeah, and it's not... As we get into it, it's not an instant death, it's just probably a slow death if...0:01:28.8 DS: Absolutely.0:01:29.8 AW: You don't adhere to it. And yeah, I'm super excited to get into that. But it's been five weeks since we've last recorded, and we caught up a little bit before hitting record. Sometimes I think we should just hit record the second we get on and let people hear all of our small talk, and then maybe wrap that into the after show. We usually have really big... We just had some really big ideas. We'll see if we can put those into play someday. But...0:01:57.2 DS: Yeah.0:02:01.7 AW: What has been consuming your time this last handful of weeks? 0:02:07.0 DS: I've been busy with the summit. Just, I've been on lots of calls with the team, planning our software, and lots of summit stuff. So just trying to get all work...0:02:19.3 AW: So you're talking about, for those that don't always listen to us, you put on a local search summit, virtual last year, it was your very first one.0:02:29.2 DS: Yeah.0:02:29.3 AW: Remind me again, how many speakers... I know the attendee number was super high. Like frame up how the very first one went.0:02:36.8 DS: So our Whitespark Local Search Summit, the first one we did last year, a virtual summit, it's free to attend, pay if you want the recordings, and we had 6,000 registered... People registered for the event. We...0:02:56.7 AW: That's so awesome.0:02:56.8 DS: It was huge, yeah. So I was a little bit shocked with how well we did. We had 32 speakers, I think, a three-day event. And so it's a lot of work to put it together. So this year, I'm really excited about how things are shaping up. Our line-up is phenomenal. We've got incredible speakers like Aaron Weiche speaking. [laughter] So it's gonna be fantastic. I can't wait for it. We really put a lot of polish on it this year. I gotta give a shoutout to Jesse Lowe on our marketing team, she is our marketing team, and she...0:03:29.8 AW: Go Jesse.0:03:33.2 DS: She's done such an incredible job with the design, and we're building our website now and our sponsor deck, and just everything is just getting really nicely tweaked and polished, and it's gonna be an incredible event, and I think that we're shooting for 8,000 registrations this year, but it really feels like that level of conference quality that you might see at a Moss Con, I feel like we're hitting our stride with it this year and really kinda taken it to that next level. So been really busy with that, trying to get that stuff working out.0:04:03.5 AW: That's just so incredible, like when you say those numbers. I remember that attendees were in the thousands, but again, first-time event, you pull it off during a pandemic.0:04:15.1 DS: Yeah. [chuckle]0:04:16.1 AW: Some of it probably helpful 'cause people were just so hungry for good information, good interaction. I remember, I super enjoyed... So many of the speakers are like friends and people that we see on the conference circuit that you get to see in person and have a beer with or grab dinner with, and it was just like... It was just great to hear David Mihm present. It was just great to hear people that you're used to that are smart and have something different in your day than Zoom calls with your internal team. [chuckle] So...0:04:50.1 DS: Yeah.0:04:51.3 AW: Those are some lofty goals, man. 8,000, that's awesome. I can't wait.0:04:54.3 DS: I'm a little bit worried that instead of increasing our registration count, we might drop, and one of the concerns I have is just virtual conference burnout. It's like we kinda hit it and at a sweet spot last time around, whereas it's been a full year, and I don't know, my inbox is blowing up with virtual conference invites all the time, and so I just wonder if people are a little bit burnt out from it, but we'll see.0:05:20.4 AW: Yeah, could be, but I would say in the local space, other than local you, nothing else comes close to the level of content that you put into that event. So I think no matter what, even if you stay the same, even if you're a little bit lower, like you've put something great in motion that I can't wait for it to be like an in-person, just imagine like... Imagine if you're able to pull off a 1000-person in-person conference event in local, that would be nuts.0:05:54.7 DS: While we plan to do it, I actually have already looked into doing the conference at the Banff Springs Hotel in Banff, Alberta, and so one day we're gonna go to... It's like castle in the mountains, in the rocky mountains, it's so beautiful. I wanna do it there. I've looked into pricing. I would have done it if I felt confident that by 2022, we wouldn't have weird COVID variants locking us down again, but their cancellation policy is like, "You gotta sign that contract, and if you back out, you lose 75 grand." So it was like, "Okay, I can't commit." But 2023, I feel like we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it in the mountains, it's gonna be great.0:06:35.1 AW: Oh my gosh, that sounds epic to say the least.0:06:39.1 DS: Yeah. I want that to happen.0:06:45.3 AW: On my side of things, you and I talked during this as friends, and then professionally on a couple of things, but I had a hard two, three weeks of being able to focus on work, which is really strange for me because I'm definitely a workaholic, work is a hobby, I just love being immersed, but the short of it is, my mom has Lewy body dementia, and it's gotten to the point where she can't live on her own, and so we had to transition her into assisted living, and the combination of visiting facilities and finding the right one for her and organizing everything that goes into a transfer like that and to some of the medical things and records and application and process, and then she was living in a town home that we owned, so cleaning that out, and then my wife and I decided to sell the town home as well, with my mom moving out of it, we just felt like the timing was right, and real estate market's great.0:07:46.3 AW: So it was really hard. I'm normally like a lot of hours, 50, 60 hours easily of high-output work, I was probably more in the 30-hour range and having a hard time focusing 'cause of these bigger things, and it was really hard on me for a little bit because I'm just so not used to it. It was just jarring off of my normal schedule and what I usually put myself into and everything else. So it's nice to be on the other side of that now and feel Mom has moved and settling in and that's a really... That's a good situation for her and everything else, and the town home was sold and closed and that's wrapped up, and so we're not spending nights and weekends over there getting it ready to sell and that whole process. So it's definitely threw me for a loop that when I was in it, I definitely felt like I was just like kind of treading water, if not drowning and looking around, like, "What direction do I go here? This feels awful weird."0:08:49.4 DS: Oh man, I'm so sorry. It's gotta be... It must have been really tough, must continue to be really tough for you with your mom, so I'm really sorry to hear that.0:09:00.0 AW: Yeah, no, I appreciate it. You and I, we had some personal conversations that were helpful, easy outlet for me to talk through some of those things. But yeah, it's just... The reverse parenting and the things that go along with that is you enter the next stage of life. It's definitely interesting, and yeah, it can be overwhelming and... I don't know. I guess I just wanted to share that for those of you running a company, starting something, all those things are hard enough, and that's not even throwing in what real life throws at you [chuckle] sometimes, and when you're an entrepreneur, you just live so much of your life in the business, and it can get hectic. So know if it's getting hectic for you, you're not alone, and hopefully you find the right people to talk to and the right ways to sort through it, and you get to the other side of that moment.0:09:51.9 DS: Yeah, for sure. We all have the things that come up that we... We try to run a business, but life interrupts often. Yeah.0:10:00.9 AW: On the plus side of life, I'm fully vaxxed, that says of like three and a half, four weeks ago, so I've had weeks now to live as a vaccinated person. I booked a flight just two days ago. I felt like such a noob going into my Delta app and like, "Oh, how do you book a flight?" I had completely forgotten. And booking a hotel, all of it just felt... I felt like I was making these huge purchases on something literally... I used to probably do 30 to 40 flights a year, something that I used to do a lot. I probably illegally was booking flights while driving somewhere. It was just that common of a repeated process. And then I actually bought tickets to SaaStr. They're doing in-person in September. They said you have to be vaccinated. I think almost the entire conference is outdoors. They're using a big outdoor facility out in California  ____.0:11:00.6 DS: Oh wow.0:11:01.0 AW: So I'm really interested to check that out and see that and looking forward to it. I think my wife Marcy is... I saw the glee in her eyes when I said I was booking travel. She was like, "Yes, I could use some alone time in the house. This sounds great." [chuckle] Yeah, she's very encouraging. She's like, "That sounds wonderful. Is it tomorrow?" "No, babe. You gotta wait a couple of weeks."0:11:28.7 DS: Wow, that's a huge move. Booking travel. We're a couple of months behind you in Canada with our vaccination rollout, and so this is beyond my comprehension at this point. But yeah, I look forward to one day booking travel [chuckle] hopefully in the not too distant future.0:11:46.5 AW: You will get there soon. When it happens, if you just need a field trip, come on down to Minneapolis and let's hang out for a couple of days.0:11:53.3 DS: Oh my... I should just make that... I should book it right now, yeah.0:11:57.6 AW: Done. Sounds like a plan.0:12:00.1 DS: Yeah, I would love to, would love to.0:12:00.8 AW: Yeah.0:12:02.1 DS: What's happening with... I remember last time we talked, you had your Flutter main developer leaving. How's that sorting out? 0:12:09.9 AW: Oh man, that has been a struggle. So we engaged both our initial recruiter that's helped us build our team, and then we went through Toptal.0:12:23.4 DS: Oh yeah.0:12:24.7 AW: And I would just say that really the biggest challenge is Flutter is really two to three-year-old as far as being still not mainstream, but just on the map. So the pool of candidates is just super small. So my experience with Toptal, to cut to the chase, we did hire someone, it wasn't through Toptal, we probably had four or five interviews through Toptal, one we interviewed and felt like they weren't the right fit for our project, the next candidate, we interviewed literally an hour after we interview them, we found out they took another job, another project to work on, then they sent us one that was like twice the hourly rate that was in our budget, so that was a non-starter, then we interviewed another one, liked him. Toptal does... They basically put them with you on the project for five days as like a free trial, and then after day one, he backed off the project. He didn't like the... He basically said, "I should've asked a few more questions." He didn't like the state management that we were using with it and felt like he wasn't gonna be a good fit for that, which was great that he didn't waste any more time, but it totally felt like a back-to-the-drawing-board.0:13:50.2 AW: And so we also had a couple of interviews with our original company that was recruiting for us, and we ended up, one of the two candidates they sourced for us, got to move forward with him, and he just started part-time this week. So that process took us five to six weeks to completely reset, which where we're at in timing right now and trying to get to launch, that feels like we lost an eternity, losing two to three sprints.0:14:20.8 DS: Sure.0:14:21.2 AW: But all you can do is be happy now. The one little plus is he does have some Node JS, which is our backend, so he might be a little bit full stack for us, which is interesting. So far we kinda have two frontend, two backend.0:14:35.8 DS: Yeah.0:14:38.3 AW: So that wild card might be nice with it. So it's taken a while. It wasn't ideal. Some of it's no fault of anyone, it's just kind of a... I think Flutter is starting to grow, so those that have talent and experience there are in high demand, especially when we are looking for someone that had at least a year experience within Flutter, not looking to learn it with us.0:15:05.6 DS: Do you... Okay, now that you've been through this process, do you have any regrets about choosing Flutter as a less mature language that maybe doesn't have the same pool of candidates that other languages have? 0:15:19.2 AW: No, because the whole reason we selected it is because we knew we were gonna do mobile apps as well. And so really my only regret will be, is if that process isn't as smooth for us to kick out our mobile apps. We're gonna launch with just our web app, and then fast follow with the mobile apps. So I just look at it... We knew that there would be some pieces of immaturity in libraries with Flutter and things like that, and we've kind of crossed a few of those bridges, but I'm still really hopeful that the main reason we decided why was to only work on one code base, per se, to deliver the frontend in web and native app experiences. So from that side, I still feel good. If that falls flat, then I'll be super frustrated that we should have used React and React Native, something more tried and true.0:16:13.8 DS: Yeah, yeah. Well we'll see. I guess we'll talk about in a future podcast, how your mobile app development is proceeding.[chuckle]0:16:22.7 AW: There you go. Hopefully, it'll probably be a couple of episodes from now, but yeah, I can't wait. I'm excited to get to that part of things.0:16:30.2 DS: Yeah for sure. Yeah. Alright. What else is going on? How are things at Leadferno, I guess, now that you've got your development back on track? 0:16:40.7 AW: Yeah, progressing well, it's just with anything, never fast enough.0:16:47.6 DS: Yeah.0:16:50.5 AW: But... And I think this probably serves as a good crossover with us to start talking because, prioritization, because that's really where we're at right now, is like we kinda internally set four months ago, like end of June, we're recording this right now on June 11th, it'll come out next week, but we said end of June is when we wanted to go live, and I can see from where we're at right now, it's gonna take us another sprint or two, just testing, clean up some of those things. But even when we launch then, it's still not gonna be perfect. So there's definitely like, launch is our priority right now, but then there's a couple of priorities that I have to answer to inside of that launch, that, which one's most important? Is it time? Or is it features? And I have some conundrum within that, on which one to place first, and I think I've arrived somewhere, which is good, 'cause you do need to make some decisions on these things [chuckle] and not waffle on them. But that's been hard.0:18:00.5 DS: It's exactly what I'm dealing with too, with our stuff that we're working on at Whitespark. I could build my grand vision over the course of the next year or build it into phases, so we have multiple launches. And so our goal is definitely to get to these multiple launches. So we have our phase one, phase two, phase three, and then once we get phase six wrapped up, then that's the grand vision of what I wanna build. So that prioritization, what goes into phase one, what... Do you move to phase two? Is what we had planned for phase three more important to put for phase two? That's all the stuff that I'm debating right now.0:18:46.0 AW: Yeah well and, as you and I have discussed off-recording, I think you were wrangling for a long time with how do you fit this in or how do you prioritize this next thing with what you're doing, right? And you have tools and services that you sell right now, and how do you balance not only supporting those, but do you continue to improve and mature those. At the same time, what I heard from you is just like the next thing that you're building being so important to you, right? Like no matter what we were talking about, your answer would turn to platform really being the answer to other things that we were trying to solve or discuss or whatever else, and it became apparent to me, and then I think apparent to you, platform needs to be the prioritization, right? 0:19:43.4 DS: It really does, and one of the things it's like, your title Prioritize or Die, and you mentioned it's a slow process, and it is. It's really like death of a company by 1,000 cuts. It's one little thing after another, and we've been up against that for, I don't know, five, 10 years. We're just constantly... Before we can progress on this, we gotta finish that one last thing, or we gotta do this little thing, or we have to update our crawling architecture, or we gotta change our mailing application.0:20:17.7 DS: It's just like... Because we're already a mature company with a customer base to support and software to keep running, it's really hard to build that next generation of our product, and it's something that, it's really become clear that if I don't turn everything off, we won't ever get there. Or it'll just take us another three years to get there, and so this prioritization has really hit home with me, and it's like we're putting everything on ice. If it's not mission critical, we don't do it.0:21:00.0 DS: So if it... We're putting all resources towards building platform, which is the next generation of Whitespark products, and so I have to do it, otherwise, it won't happen, and so... And if it doesn't happen, we will continue to be a profitable successful company, but we won't have that growth. That thing that... That catapult into the two times, three times, five times growth that I wanna see happen for Whitespark. The potential is there, and it's like, I'm always looking at it. It's this sort of future thing. It needs to stop being a future thing, and it needs to be a now thing and that we're building it right now.0:21:40.3 AW: Yeah. No... One, I fully support that, and I totally agree with your statement. You won't reach your potential, right? You have these ideas, you know these things, you have so much experience in the space. You know what needs to be delivered, and if you keep hopping around with the other things that you have right now and trying to forward those at the same time of creating this ultimate idea, like you just can't... You can't split pairs that many ways and still have something yet left to do something with.0:22:19.1 AW: I think you put it... You put it perfectly in our pre-show notes when you just wrote, "It's okay to put other things on hold."0:22:28.9 DS: Right, yeah.0:22:29.0 AW: But we had some conversations, but I'd love to hear or maybe you sharing a little bit, like what happened in between some of our conversations where you're thinking about this internally and going through the... How uncomfortable at first, and how did you get yourself more comfortable with, it's okay to put things on hold and pursue this big idea that feels... This feels like what I need to do, but then it's much different to say you're going to do it and then put that in action to just do it.0:23:02.8 DS: Yeah. So I would say there was two things that happened. One, you and I talked about this platform stuff and you had pushed for... You'd be like, "Man, Darren you should really... You really... You need to start putting other things on hold and focus on platform." and so that seed was planted, and then... So I've always been faced with well, we'll get to that when we finish this thing. We'll get to platform when we finished this next thing, and the thing that was lined up was something that I think I've mentioned on the podcast before, but we have a new feature that we're integrating into our local citation finder that does a deep audit and a stand-alone tool, which we're calling Scanarator.0:23:46.4 DS: So this thing was built by one of our developers who we brought in-house, but he was a freelancer working on the side, and I wanted to do the side project, but I didn't wanna distract my team from... So he built this thing. And it's great, it works really well, but now that we're at this phase where we're actually integrating it into our stack, it became clear that we couldn't do it because he built it in his own weird framework-y thing, and so it's like, "Well, we're getting close to launching this thing, it's all functional, but when it comes to integrating it, we're gonna have to re-write it in our stack." and I was like, "What?" This is gonna take us like another month, maybe two, and then it was Click! 0:24:30.4 DS: This light bulb went off. I'd be like, what is that gonna give us? Is it gonna increase our MRR by a $1,000 a month? Maybe. Maybe it's not gonna give us that much more. It's like I keep pushing on all of these things that will definitely improve our software, but that's not gonna two times our company. It's just gonna keep us floating along. It's going to keep us staying the course. If I put that on ice, it doesn't hurt us. We've already raised our prices for the local citation finder.0:25:04.0 AW: So great, we're putting it on ice. We're not integrating that functionality until we can integrate it into platform, and so that was like... You planted the seed. I saw that exact situation occurring again, where I'm like, "My God, I'm not gonna delay platform by another two months." Forget it. We're putting everything on ice, we're focusing on platform, and that absolutely... I feel so good about that decision, and I know that that's gonna get us to where we need to go. And it's like... I don't know why it took me so long to have that shift of perception, 'cause it's really easy to just keep building on what you already have rather than going after the big prize.0:25:44.5 AW: Yeah. Well, it's probably a couple things. One, we all have different levels of risk aversion, and especially the larger you grow your company, you're responsible for more people, you're responsible for more customers. I think part of your success, Darren, is what I see in you is, you are so wired to not only please but exceed what people get from you. It's in all of the content you share, the presentations you give. You just give so much, and so I think when you look at this, I think it's been hard for you to wrangle with something, be like, "I'm just gonna let it be good enough for a while, instead of constantly pushing on it to be great, even though its ceiling just isn't the ultimate ceiling, right? 0:26:30.5 AW: And that's where getting this transfer of energy put into something that has a very high ceiling, but it's also gonna be hard. There's risk involved in it, and it's risky when you take yourself away from the same track that you've been on on trying to deliver greatness with what you do have out there and just being okay with it being the same for a while, while you put all your focus into one thing.0:26:58.1 DS: Yeah. The to-do list don't stop. Like all of our existing software products, they each have a list of 100 things that I wanna do for them, and then what ends up happening is I end up on all these client calls. So I'm on a sales call, or a customer support thing comes up, and so there's all these polls happening, like a customer... A lead wants this thing, and then your brain goes to like, "Well, if we built that thing, it would serve all of our customers and we could sell more and it would be great." But those are actually distractions, in my personal case, from the bigger prize, and I realize that I have to focus our attention on a bigger price and say, "Well, that's a cool feature, let's do it when we have the main thing that we wanna build it into done."0:27:49.3 AW: One of the things that I've done at multiple past companies, just because the same things you're talking about, like that happens everywhere in business for all of us, and I think the truly great leaders are the ones that find the time and find the ways to separate themselves from the business of doing in the constant motion, and boil it down to what is my one most important thing right now, and am I doing enough for that? Because if that doesn't happen, all of the other things usually pale in comparison, right? 0:28:22.0 AW: And I would try to do this from time to time, whether it was monthly or bi-monthly or even quarterly with my management team and just have a meeting in one of our normal exec team cycles or whatever, but say like, what's the one thing you need to get done right now and does it have a blocker, do you need support, do you need resources? And really make them think on that. 'Cause it was real easy for every run to report on, here's my laundry list of things that I need to do, that all need attention, meetings, calls, whatever. We all have that, but the truly great ones find a way to like... That's fine. That's still all gonna be there if I step away from it or put it on ice or delegate or whatever else. But if I don't do this thing... At some point, the business will pay a price in one way or another. If it truly is important enough to be prioritized, it's something that will cost you if you don't take action on it.0:29:21.2 DS: Right. Basically, it's the exact same concept of that book, Eat That Frog. I think it's called Eat that Frog, and so it's like, you start your day, what is the absolute... You just... I know you've got a list of 100 things, but what's the one thing? Eat that thing in the morning. Do that thing first thing before you do anything else, and It'll set you up for success for the whole day. That same concept can be applied with a greater scale at your company level. What is the frog? What is the one thing that you must focus on to move your company forward? 0:29:54.8 AW: I don't think I'm gonna remember right now 'cause I consume way too many SaaS and leader type podcasts, but one of the ones this past week I was listening to, the guy was talking... He literally puts his most important thing on a post-it note and it's on his bathroom mirror. So he sees it like every morning. So even if it's the most important thing for weeks at a time, he comes face-to-face with it every morning. There's no way he sees it in writing, and I just... So basic, but yet, just this gentle reminder in your mindset that, "Hey, it's great whatever I do today, but if I don't contribute to this one thing, I'm not putting my valuable time into the most valuable thing on my docket at the moment." That was really, really interesting.0:30:41.3 DS: Although it's hard because if you ask me right now, what is my personal one thing, whoa! I got three of them. I don't know. I got three of them. I got the summit, I got my videos I gotta make, and I got platform, right? So I have to move all of those things forward.0:31:01.6 AW: Yeah. And that's not to say that doesn't happen, but at the end of the day, if someone made you strip down to one, it wouldn't be the summit and it wouldn't be your videos.0:31:08.9 DS: No. But I... That... You know what happens though, I would let down a lot of people by having prioritized, and I think that's where the struggle is. It's like I got all these different pulls for my attention and my input, and my input has... Everyone wants it, and so it's really tough when, as your company grows. 'Cause if I didn't do my videos and I didn't do the summit stuff then that would just fall apart.0:31:37.9 AW: Yeah. Saying no is hard.0:31:39.4 DS: Saying no is hard.0:31:39.5 AW: Saying no is really, really hard. It took me a long time to... Especially... I've spent so much of my career on the sales and marketing side of running companies, and it used to be like saying no to bad deals when you're young and hungry and trying to grow, and you just take anything on, even though there's something in your gut that's like, "Oh! This... The communication doesn't feel right, the expectations don't feel right, but I just wanna get this deal. The money is good." whatever else, and then you get into it and you're like, "Oh, I would pay money not to have this deal right now." It is so the wrong the deal.0:32:15.9 DS: Yeah. I got a few of those in my closet, for sure.0:32:18.6 AW: Yeah. I actually... I think more than ever at GatherUp, I got really good at being able to say no to those. Where I was just like, that's not who we need to help us grow. Like that... One way or another, and it was really agency life is where I learned how hard... Having a bad client in SaaS Life isn't great, but it's not... Agency life, that bad client could just put your entire company on fire for no good reason and...0:32:51.1 DS: Sure yeah.0:32:51.5 AW: I don't miss that at all...0:32:51.9 DS: So much time. Yeah.0:32:54.5 AW: 'Cause it's just all service delivery, and when service delivery things go wrong, your only option is to throw more people at it, and that just... There isn't always bandwidth to throw more people at it, and then that upsets the other things you're working on. Like, "Oh, man... "0:33:07.5 DS: Yeah. Yeah. It's tough.0:33:09.8 AW: It totally is. Well, I applaud the moves you're making, and I just flat out think prioritization is the hardest thing in running a business. I think it is the most challenging thing that's there, and something that... I just always have so much work to do, sometimes I feel like I see things really clearly, and other times I fight all of those same battles with what's exciting and what's new and getting distracted, and I don't know. I've just... I've tried over time to just figure out as many things as I can to... How do I boil it down to answer to one thing instead of so many the buts and the what ifs and all of that.0:33:55.8 AW: That's always there in every conversation that you can have with yourself, but a lot of times when I analyze, I just have to look at... And that's where I'm at right now. My priority is launch.0:34:09.6 DS: That is obvious.0:34:10.5 AW: Yeah, I have 30 to 45 days at most, and I'm putting this on recording, I cannot go a day outside of July without launching. It's not gonna happen. The hard part, my what-ifs and buts are... There's one bigger differentiating feature that might get cut off and not delivered at launch, and that super pains me as someone who's a product... I don't wanna use the word perfectionist, but I demand and expect a lot out of our tool, and I know things I wanna build for years, and if I'm launching without something that has always been in my V1 and something that I feel like is a differentiator and I'm gonna have to wait another sprint or two sprints after launching, that just feels like such a like... I've almost said to others on the team, I don't know if this is a great way to do, but I'm just like... It's almost like parenting. I'm just like, don't make me have to decide this. Somehow pull this off, save the day. Let's get this feature included in what we're doing up until this time frame, but I don't wanna launch without the... And if it's super apparent to me that we're not even gonna be able to get it, then I'm gonna launch even earlier because I'd rather launch in early July, knowing I'm gonna be without this no matter what, then holding it even further.0:35:43.2 DS: I think one thing you should try to keep in mind is that you're gonna have a significant potential customer base that doesn't care about that feature. They want the core functionality, they're gonna get that out of the gate, and then by putting all of these things into additional sprints, every time you launch a nice new feature, that's another marketing push, it's another chance to reach out to your existing customers, provide more value to them and do a broader marketing push saying, "Hey, we now do this thing, we now do this thing" and so I actually came that realization with our rank tracker product. We were building the whole thing from the ground up, and then my dev team lead pulled me back and says like, "No, those features... Yes, we want them for launch, it'd be great if they were there for launch, but it actually can be a benefit to launch them after 'cause you get that additional marketing engine running for every new cool thing that you're putting up.0:36:40.1 AW: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I struggle with is just first impressions, and especially when you launch, you do get the love when you launch, right? It's like... At least for me at this point, I have a good network of colleagues and friends and professional contacts, like I'll be able to get social posts that get some good sharing to them and figure out some other distribution things and I just fear. It was the same in running GatherUp for six years, there's so many times where I'd talk to somebody, it's like, "Oh well, I looked at you guys early on, and it was just immature and missing so many things and whatever else," and then they don't pay attention to all the incremental steps you're making all the time and then you're just waiting, you need something to grab them to bring them back to get them to say, "Oh, I should take another look because they probably have a lot more understanding." They have a lot more or whatever else, but whatever turned me off to begin with, they almost hold that to you forever, their first impression was, say... And this won't be the case with Leadferno, I've gotten enough feedback that the interface is beautiful and easy to use and everything, so I'm not worried about that.0:37:54.5 AW: But say that was the case and he was like, "Oh," it just looks Junkie. It felt wrong. I couldn't figure out where to go. It wasn't intuitive at all. That person might never, ever consider you again because they just look at like, that company is not gonna fix that, or why would they fix that, right? 0:38:11.3 DS: Sure. Yeah.0:38:12.5 AW: And those are the things that I stress about, and this feature that I have to decide against is like... It is a differentiator, and it's just one of those things too, you might be like, Aaron, why do you have a differentiator that's on the line at the end, but it's like there's just so many things to build in the product, like something... For one reason, another... And in some of the steps we had to build, it just had to be in that place, and so it's like I'm just worried where... It's not gonna make or break us. But if I could get 20 or 30 people or 40 people to sign up those first few weeks as paying customers, and that's the reason why, or that's what keeps them as opposed to it doesn't, the guarantee on getting them to come take a look again when I message them two weeks or four weeks or six weeks later and be like, "Don't worry, it's here." I might not even know who they were. You know what I mean? It just won't...0:39:08.3 DS: I hear what you're saying with a brand new product launch, you're coming out of gates, no one really knows you, that first impression is kind of important, there is an MVP, that's just two minimum. You shouldn't be so minimum, that attention you get with the launch is wasted, right? I hear your perspective there, and now it does raise the question, what is... Let's say you decide, okay, we can't do it, we can't launch without this feature, is it worth pushing back the launch by another three weeks like this is what you're grappling with, right? 0:39:44.2 AW: Yeah, and I already feel like I'm right. Our internal goal was end of June, and so I've already come to grips with, it's gonna take another sprint and possibly two sprints, but that's where I say... Then I start hitting the point of like, "What's not to keep allowing yourself to keep saying like, Oh, just another sprint and another," right? And next thing it's October and I still don't have a damn product out and it's like... So I've drawn in the line of sand, no matter what, if we hit mid-June and we were hopeful we could get it in whatever, then I'll just say "No, all we're doing is prep in the next five days to launch." That's just what we're doing because I don't wanna work...0:40:24.1 AW: We have enough of the product there. I don't wanna work any further in the dark without people's opinion with money on the line, it's like pilot customers and doing demos and people wanting to learn it, all of that's great. But it's not the same as when they're saying yes or no with $150 or $200 a month behind their name. That's a much different piece of feedback, and I wanna get to that 'cause I want people to either be like, "Yes, and here's what I'd like to see next" or "Here's what I'm already learning in my usage", or "This is a no for me, and here's why. Here's what you're missing. Here's why I'm not willing to plug into this or wait for you to bring this along or anything else." We need to hit that at this point because we've been coding long enough... I don't wanna go further. Yeah.0:41:18.1 DS: It does make me wonder a little bit, and I'm sure you've thought of, This is your communication to that first batch of customers and being really... Lots of reminders about what's coming. You're getting in early, and we're gonna grandfather you in, and this is all the stuff that we're building, and it's gonna just keep getting better and trying to keep that excitement brewing for them.0:41:39.9 AW: Yep. Yeah. I know how important that is. I feel like that's something that we settled into and did really well at GatherUp, like we would be teasing features two or three months out. The minute we had a visual on what the future was gonna look like, we were telling people like, "Hey, this is coming and here's why we're building it." right? And helping them understand strategically how we're looking at things, and it was helpful in so many ways.0:42:10.9 AW: The hard part for me with this is like, I know two things that are really big fast follow. The minute we launch, literally, we will celebrate for an hour and then be like, and now we gotta get to these two things. Our mobile apps being one of them, and so I'll be able to promote those two things like, "Hey, we're heads down working on these." As they take shape, I wanna get it to a point where I can give a good firm date that we'll be able to hit for people so that they're not disappointed, but I also know who knows what the priorities will have to be reset when I have...0:42:50.7 AW: The hopeful is we have 20, 50, 100 users within weeks, and then they're telling us what's missing or what would make their life really easy, and then we have to figure how much do we work on those things versus on these big pieces that will open up more so, Oh, it's about to get interesting.0:43:06.7 DS: It's gonna be good. We have lots to talk about on the podcast.0:43:10.8 AW: But that's just all the reason more why... You just can't go any further, and I think every founder Pride has this. I definitely have this struggle. A minimal viable product is just so hard for me. So hard for me.0:43:30.2 DS: Yeah, me too. And that's actually, it's one of the things I realize has held us back because you could keep perfecting something for a really long time before you ever launch it. That's... Back to our topic, that's prioritizing. What is the priority? What needs to get done that's gonna create revenue growth in your company. That's really what it all comes down to you.0:43:52.8 AW: Yep, absolutely. So I'm gonna keep focusing on my priority of launching, and hopefully the dev team can prioritize my feature and get it in there. If not, we're gonna... The priority is gonna be time and we're just... We're not gonna stretch any further without getting... I don't know what term to use, credible feedback, just real feedback instead of... Like I said, pilot customers and testers and friends are nice, but they're just... They don't look at as critical as those paying for it and using it within their business process. That's who you need to be listening to.0:44:30.3 DS: That makes sense. I liked your comment about drawing a line in the sand. It's like, "We would love to have this feature, but here's the line, if we're not gonna have it, then we're not gonna have it."0:44:43.1 AW: And in a perfect world, your team gets that and understands it, right? If you communicate that far enough up front, what you would hope for out of your team is they're planning and preparing, and knowing that there's a deadline that's far enough out where they can make decisions, do their own prioritizing and figure out those things. Also, even having pride of the work like, "Hey, we don't wanna launch without this." So I think there's some smart things that can be done when you're transparent with your team with that and helping them understand prioritization and why you're prioritizing things that way. Again, that's an area where I really grew at GatherUp in just being very intentional in communicating with the team and letting them know, "Here's the order we're gonna build the features in, and here's why. Here's why it matters to our business or fits in with our vision." and allow them to support it and then make their prioritization and their decisions against it, and I think that's a really freeing thing for your team.0:45:41.7 DS: Yeah. I think it's an area of personal growth for me. That's something I can get a bit better at 'cause I don't really have deadlines defined, and I have been notorious for not defining them, but that also comes back to scoping out our projects really well, so having them really well-scoped, defining these sprints, defining these timelines, that's something that I gotta get better at.0:46:03.9 AW: No. Always something to get better at.0:46:04.0 DS: Yeah, definitely. Whatever.0:46:06.5 AW: Alright. Should we wrap it up? 0:46:09.1 DS: We should wrap it up. We did it in 45 minutes.0:46:12.6 AW: Hey, that's a win. We always discuss if we can go shorter, we try not to get longer, but as I told you, no one's ever complained, no one's ever written us and said, "Hey, this is too long, I just... I can't handle it." 0:46:26.7 DS: Sure. Alright, well, any listeners, if you have any complaints, let us know.0:46:30.1 AW: Yes, or if you have praise, let us know too. It's just always nice to know, it's just not Darren talking or topic ideas we get every now and then, questions you want answered, we'd love to hear from listeners so...0:46:42.9 AW: Alright, Darren. Well, I hope you have a fabulous time enjoying some summer and...0:46:52.4 DS: Yeah. Thanks. Same to you.0:46:54.4 AW: Hopefully. I know you have your second vaccination shot up and coming, and that helps return a few more spices of life and socialization and those things that have been hard to come by.0:47:06.9 DS: For sure. Yeah, I look forward to that. That lifestyle that you're getting into now. Go for a trip.0:47:11.6 AW: It feels kind of good.0:47:15.0 DS: I know. It sounds good.0:47:17.0 AW: Oh, to be normal.0:47:18.4 DS: Yeah. Totally.0:47:19.0 AW: Alright. Well, have a good one, Darren, and thanks everybody. And we'll see you on the next episode.0:47:23.8 DS: Thank you, everybody.[OUTRO music]