Podcast appearances and mentions of Dawson Trotman

Website: http://www.brministry.org | App: http://get.theapp.co/725cLorry Sanny shares about how he was trained and knew Dawson Trotman. Dawson Trotman started the Navigator Ministry well know discipleship organization from around the world. Dawson was a man who sacrificed and died to himself in order to pour his life into new Key Men who would train others. The navigators became the leader in discipleship at the Billy Graham crusades.

What is Biblical meditation? Jim downing one of the oldest surviving navy men from the attacks of pearl harbor, and oldest Navigator missionary from the past with Dawson Trotman. Shares why we should meditate on Scripture.

Grandpa Mather flew F6F Hellcats during World War 2, and later married Dottie Rehnland of Michigan, and had 3 kids, one of whom was my father. He became a Christian at the big Methodist Church in Colorado Springs in 1956 at Dawson Trotman's funeral when Billy Graham gave the eulogy. In 1962, Grandpa founded Mr. Steak, Inc., which eventually had 286 restaurants in the United States and in Canada. Grandpa Mather calls his grandson, TRP Producer and Host Lucas J. Mather, on 7 May 2020 during the lockdowns to encourage the boy. Grandpa Mather is today 101 years old and resides in Ventura County, California. He attends Godspeak Calvary Chapel in Newberry Park with his wife of 29 years, Linda Lopez Mather, daughter of longtime restaurant owner Sal Lopez, owner of Sal's Mexican Inn at 1450 Oxnard Blvd for many decades in Oxnard, California. The Republican Professor is produced and hosted by Dr. Lucas J. Mather, Ph.D., also a US Navy veteran.

AI-generated discussion on Dawson Trotman's message: Born to Reproduce

Website- http---www.brministry.org - App- http---get.theapp.co-725c-Lorne Sanny, who ran the Navigator Ministry after Dawson Trotman, shares how believers are lifetime laborers in sharing about Christ. Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations. Are you obeying His command--

Website: http://www.brministry.org | App: http://get.theapp.co/725cLorne Sanny, who ran the Navigator Ministry after Dawson Trotman, shares how believers are lifetime laborers in sharing about Christ. Jesus told us to make disciples of all nations. Are you obeying His command?

[00:00:00] Stewart Severino: The leader that sits at the helm is going to have to be really intentional about how they look for that specific talent and they need to structure their departments or their organizations in that manner, in order to really stretch those dollars. [00:00:13] Stewart Severino: You have to be a strong financial steward nowadays. There's no reason not to be right with the talent that we have out there, so my suggestion to leadership is to stop building empires and start building communities. +++++++++++++++++++ [00:00:25] Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Stewart Severino, the Head of Innovation for The Navigators. [00:00:34] Tommy Thomas: As of recent, one of the podcasts I've added to my feed is Purpose and Profit Podcast hosted by Dave Raley and Carly Berner. Stewart was a recent guest of theirs and listening to that podcast convinced me that I wanted Stewart to share with our audience. So I want to give a big shout out to Dave and Carly for the work they're doing with Purpose and Profit Podcast. [00:00:55] Tommy Thomas: So, Stewart, welcome to NextGen Nonprofit Leadership. [00:00:58] Stewart Severino: Hey Tommy, nice to be here. Thank you. [00:01:00] Tommy Thomas: So, I have to confess that earlier in my career, maybe 20 years ago, 30 years ago, if you'd asked me about innovation and The Navigators, I'm not sure I would have put those two in the same sentence. But after knowing and working with Doug Nuenke, their most recent former President, it makes total sense now that The Navigators would have somebody at a senior level paying attention to innovation. [00:01:26] Stewart Severino: That caught my attention too. That was not more than 18 months ago. So, we're in the same boat. [00:01:32] Tommy Thomas:  We're going to talk a lot about innovation in the nonprofit sector and maybe if it's appropriate, maybe you can share with us some of the exciting things that The Navigators are doing in this area. But before we go there, I want to go back to your childhood and your upbringing, and maybe learn a little bit about, maybe how that got you to where you are today. [00:01:53] Stewart Severino: Yeah, you know, that's an immigrant story. My mom came to the US in the early 70s and she worked in a factory and raised us kids alone. You don't know any different right, you grew up with friends who were in similar situations inner city in New Jersey, I grew up in Newark. You know, high school was a good time. There was decent formation there because of, you know, some male coaches. That's always important. Even though you don't have a male figure at home, hopefully, you have some male influences in your life. So that helped to shape me early on as a male. And then, moving out of high school, college began in 1994. I went to a Jesuit university, for a little bit, but dropped out because of the dot com boom in New York City. So that was probably the best decision I made at that time. You know, kids are talking about that today, right? Oh, do we really need college? [00:02:46] Stewart Severino: We can just get a certification. And that's kind of what was going on back then. We had to make it up as we went along because we were building it as we were building strategies. So it was an exciting time. And then, I would return later on to academia and complete my degree, my master's at Dallas Theological Seminary. [00:03:04] Tommy Thomas: What was high school like? Did you play athletics or, in the band or any of that, anything like that? [00:03:10] Stewart Severino: Yeah. Wrestled, loved wrestling. The discipline of wrestling, the grit, that kind of physical and perseverance set the pace for what would be my adulthood. [00:03:25] Tommy Thomas: When you started college in the beginning, were you on a technology track or you in general studies? What was that like studying at the Jesuit university? [00:03:33] Stewart Severino: Yeah, that's a good question. I went in as a biology major. I always enjoyed biology and I thought, oh, maybe I'll get into med school or, I don't know, something along the healthcare track. But, yeah, that went away pretty quick. [00:03:48] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned mentoring a little bit and male figures in your life. Who's been the most influential mentor to you so far? [00:03:55] Stewart Severino: Oh boy, you know, that didn't come till much later, maybe till around the age of when I was going back to church. Not that I ever really went, met my wife and she introduced herself as a Christian to me, and I didn't really recognize that. Growing up in the Northeast, you either know Catholic or you know Jew, and to hear Christian is a little different. So, going into this church, the senior pastor there really took attention to me and spent week after week with me even before I was a believer. And so I got to give that to him, you know, a really busy man having a relationship as a primary responsibility in his life, to his people. It just spoke volumes. [00:04:38] Tommy Thomas: What's the best piece of advice he ever gave you? [00:04:42] Stewart Severino: He says you're never going to know everything and be okay with that. [00:04:48] Tommy Thomas: Good words. Good words. I have a hunch that a lot of people might be like me and not necessarily put innovation and nonprofit sector in the same sentence. Am I right about that? And if so, why?  [00:05:05] Stewart Severino: That's a good topic to bring up because I think leadership is being forced to bring it up. Now you can't escape innovation. You can't escape AI. I think the phrase innovation is so broad and it has so many different meanings that it needs some real form. It needs some real function, some real definition by leadership. And yes it's not at the top of their list but it is being forced to the top of their list because they need to figure out how to do more with very little, especially in a nonprofit space, especially in donor-supported organizations. [00:05:42] Tommy Thomas: I was talking to Matt Randerson. You may know him, over at Barna, and we're planning an upcoming podcast on generational influences of the nonprofit sector. So maybe go there for a minute. Have you noticed relative to innovation any differences with the generations in terms of maybe creativity? [00:06:03] Stewart Severino: You know, you have to start looking at who am I hiring, right? Typically, my generation, Gen X, or even older, we tend to build empires versus building community. We come in and we want to staff up, right? We want an assistant. We want project managers that you can't function like that anymore. I still see it happening. It really bothers me what we need to start looking for in our younger generation are those who have hybrid capabilities. Are you a project manager? Do you have tech capabilities at a minimum? I think this younger generation will have that. And already does have that. I think the leader that sits at the helm is going to have to be really intentional about how they look for that specific talent and they need to structure their departments or their organizations in that manner, in order to really stretch those dollars. [00:06:57] Stewart Severino: You have to be a strong financial steward nowadays. And there's no reason not to be right with the talent that we have out there. There's no reason we don't have to be, so my suggestion to leadership is to stop building empires and start building communities. +++++++++++++++++ [00:07:13] Tommy Thomas: What about risk-taking from the different generations? [00:07:17] Stewart Severino: I see more risk-taking in a younger generation. Mainly because they've been hearing a narrative of failing fast. You know, and that comes with the lean startup methods and other innovative practices. So, there's more room for risk-taking with the younger generation. I think for me, for Gen X or even the boomers, you have your entrepreneurs. You have those risk-takers. I think they are few and far between. But those of us that are in place of leadership, we're going to the risk tolerance in moving forward with something that could be seen as risky to the rest of the organization. So, it really depends. It depends on the initiative. It depends on the talent you're using. It depends on if you have a method. [00:08:08] Stewart Severino: Do you have a process that is repeatable, that is predictable? You can take a risk, but we're not asking you to roll the die. We're asking you to come in, do something different, but do it within a framework. We're not here to just shoot from the hip or throw things on the wall to see if they stick. [00:08:29] Tommy Thomas: On your LinkedIn profile, in addition to innovation and nonprofit impact, you have the words scaling and sustainability. [00:08:37] Stewart Severino: Yeah, it's one thing to launch successful projects and pilots. It's another thing to get them to scale. And because now you're talking throughout the organization, you're talking about resources. And so, scaling is probably at the top of your list of success. For example, Navigators. We have this age-old issue, not just Navigators, but all of Christianity. We have this age-old issue of scaling discipleship. You can't possibly disciple more than one to three people, have a relationship, you know, beyond that. And so scaling discipleship, in this example, has always been an issue. [00:09:20] Stewart Severino: So how do we solve for that? Back in a day in the 40s, Billy Graham went to Dawson Trotman, who's the founder of the Navigators. And he said, Dawson, I need your help. We're bringing 5,000-6,000 people per month to faith, but there's no follow-up. They're just coming to the churches, professing their faith and then what? There's no follow-up, right? It's like you getting a subscription and then no follow-up subscription, right? There's no accountability there from the company side. On this side, it would be how do you touch so many people consistently? How do you develop relationships? [00:09:51] Stewart Severino: And so scaling discipleship on that level is huge. And I'm so excited to be part of that. [00:09:59] Tommy Thomas: Does that tie in with sustainability? [00:10:03] Stewart Severino: So, the sustainability is how can you affect a business unit in a way that they continue to function the way they're supposed to, but also contribute to the whole, can I serve you? How do I come to you in a department and say, hey, what are your needs? How can I serve you? And through that, we explore efficiencies, and optimization, so you can do your job better, more efficiently, and at a reduced cost while you're contributing back to the organization as a whole. That's sustainability. [00:10:37] Stewart Severino: So, if I to go to a ministry and say, hey, how can I help you at the college level? Oh, well, I can't touch all of these students that are coming to me. I can only touch a small percentage of these folks. What do I do with the rest? Oh, let me help you with that. Right now, you're more efficient with your time. You have more time for your family. You have more time for ministry. And then those people that you couldn't touch before, they're being touched through other processes, through other automations, through other efficiencies. That's sustainability. We're now affecting two realms. And that one realm that you couldn't touch before is now contributing back to the whole.  That's sustainability. [00:11:22] Tommy Thomas: What are some mistakes that you've observed, in the nonprofit sector as people attempt to innovate? [00:11:29] Stewart Severino: Repeatedly. And I think this is something that requires indoctrination and it's kind of what I do, right? You have to go around and campaign yourself. This is a person-to-person initiative. It's going around shaking hands, kissing babies, being personable, and saying, here is what innovation looks like in a discipline dispelling their previous conceptions or misconceptions of innovation isn't all that difficult because when you expose them to a disciplined innovation, it really changes the way they view their world. [00:12:04] Stewart Severino: Typically, they view innovation like, well, I have this issue or we have these goals. Let's brainstorm. How many times have you heard that? Hey, join me for coffee and let's go brainstorm. No brainstorming comes later on in the process. In the beginning, it's understanding. Do we as a team, as an organization have a consensus on what the needs of the audience are? When you define that need and you have a consensus on it, that becomes your true north. That is your compass. You don't deviate from it. You don't pollute it with technology or a process or good ideas that comes later. Let's stay to the bare minimum. What is your need? [00:12:47] Tommy Thomas: This is gonna take us back a little bit and some of this stuff may not even be in play these days, I remember the last time I spoke at the outcomes conference at Christian Leadership I used this illustration from the 1980s, the U. S. Army came up with this acronym, VUCA, Volatility, Uncertainty, Complexity, and Ambiguity. later on, the Center for Creative Leadership had to come up with their term, RUPT, Rapid, Unpredictable, Paradoxical, and Tangled. Another writer coined the term BANI, Brittle, Anxious, Non-Linear, and Incomprehensible. And then the people over at Oxford, not to be outdone, they said it was Turbulent, Uncertain, Novel and Ambiguous. Now all of these are addressing external changes. Let's go there a little bit with external changes, and how you've seen them impact the nonprofit sector. [00:13:44] Tommy Thomas: Have they either contributed or hurt innovation? [00:13:51] Stewart Severino: External. So, you know, it's interesting you bring up VUCA. I was trained, I used to work for a consultancy where these guys, were the first top gun pilots there in the first class. And so, they were very efficient when it came to process and organization. So, we've worked in the space and you may have heard this on the previous called high-reliability organizations. H. R. O. S. And so, the job of these is to minimize or reduce risk in an environment. So external risks on an organization. So how do we do that? How does an aircraft carrier run at such precision? When you have a team of young adults rotating every so often, it's the process, right? [00:14:39] Stewart Severino: It's the discipline of the process that keeps people safe. It keeps people from dying. Think about commercial airliners, think about hospitals, think about oil rigs, right? Think about the military. And so, there's such high precision, not because they're awesome, but because they have a type process. And so, for the nonprofit space, what can you do within your organization? You've got to take your time, which each with each department and analyze, hey, show me your process for X, Y, Z, whatever their tasks are. And when you take a deep dive into their process, you'll quickly understand. They most likely don't have a process. They probably have a bullet list of items. [00:15:20] Stewart Severino: Hey, we do this, then we do that. If this happens, then that happens. And that's okay. That's a great starting point. But until you fully fleshed out the ifs and thens, and the now what's in the work process of that particular department, you won't be able to fully understand what's going on. The possible risks that are going to come from the outside or even from within the inside, within the organization. So really taking your time and fleshing out your work process and throwing that word out there, because that's a real thing, work, process, get to it, use it, incorporate it. It'll protect you from not just everyday mistakes. Let's say marketing doesn't have a work process for their marketing automation campaigns. [00:16:02] Stewart Severino: We see this a lot when they send emails that you've opted out of already. It's probably because they're not checking against what's called a suppression list on the backend. You're supposed to be suppressed from that. There's no process that checks for that, right? it's a silly little example, but I think it works for this model for what I'm trying to say. So, risk from outside of the organization is just as real as risk from within the organization. And the only way to solve for that is by taking a deep look into the process of each department. ++++++++++++++++++++ [00:16:32] Tommy Thomas: We've all seen the TV show Shark Tank. And I've been asking this question a lot lately. If you were a judge on a nonprofit version of Shark Tank where the nonprofits were asking you for early-stage funding. What questions would you need solid answers to before you made that investment? [00:16:56] Stewart Severino: For a nonprofit, it's a little different. But first I would say, have you identified the market? Right. Basic question, but I think again, many entrepreneurs, I think many nonprofits jump to solutions, assumed solutions, assumed technologies. But my first question would be, have you identified your market? And so, you identify your market again by identifying a need. So, I'll give you an example. If I can identify a market by demographics, that's typically how most organizations run, especially marketing leaders. They'll say, give me the demographic data. I don't know, uh, affluent married couples in their thirties and forties. [00:17:40] Stewart Severino: Okay. Let's say this nonprofit focuses on providing marriage resources. All right. If the need of the couple is to have better conflict resolution and better listening skills, well that's a need, and that need transcends the affluent and the poor. So now we've identified a real market, not just affluent, because the poor, or the underprivileged will still consume those resources. And if you're offering free resources, that's only going to make your dashboard of success look even better because you're bringing in a larger audience. Sure. They may not convert in terms of dollars later on to how you would expect the athlete, but you're going to have a much bigger audience. [00:18:26] Stewart Severino: And with a bigger audience, you have a bigger platform. So, you know, my first look is “Have you truly identified a market” and “Do you even know how to recognize a market”? [00:18:36] Tommy Thomas: If you are creating a dashboard for nonprofit organizations' overall health what would be some of the dials on your dashboard? [00:18:47] Stewart Severino: Uh, well, one indication, this is going to sound cheesy. Um, the way to indicate health and organization is to have a healthy organization. So typically, we don't have HR-related things on our dashboard, right? We don't have the qualitative information. And I typically stay away from the squishy stuff, right? I like hard numbers. I like my return on investments. I like my lifetime value in customers. I think we have to start looking at the squishy stuff, like, uh, something similar to an NPS score, not a promoter score. We see companies use this all the time to have their customers judge their brand. [00:19:30] Stewart Severino: And typically, an NPS score looks like, how likely are you to refer this service to your friend? Scale of one to five, something as simple like that, right? We have CSAT scores, which are customer satisfaction scores. They function the same way. They are qualitative, not quantitative. So, for me on my dashboard, I would love to always have the pulse of the organization's health, because a healthy organization breeds a healthy organization. [00:20:01] Tommy Thomas: I always get people to respond to some quotes, usually they're doing it within the context of, their area of expertise. So, let's go there for a little bit then. Here's one from Steve Jobs. Marketing is about values. It's a complicated and noisy world, and we're not going to get a chance to get people to remember much about us. No company is. So, we have to be really clear about what we want them to know about us. [00:20:31] Stewart Severino: I'm looking for the wisdom in those words. He's right. There's a lot of visual noise out there. There's a lot of audio noise out there. I think he's right. I mean, there's a desire there to stick out. I think that's every marketer's challenge. How do you stick out in this noisy world? So yeah, he's not wrong in that. Obviously, he created Apple. I mean, come on. He did a few things, right? I think if I had an answer to that, um, yes and amen to that all day long, but also, how do we see people, how do we have corporate responsibility beyond the tools we have given to them? [00:21:17] Stewart Severino: So, you know, iPhone came out in 2007, no real guidelines around ethics. The consumption is wild. And you only see that peaking today. It's just the addiction to the scrolling is unbelievable. And so, where is the corporate responsibility in launching something and then hand-holding your consumers throughout the process? Now that may sound, idealistic or naive on some level, but take it beyond Apple and apply that to your nonprofit organization. How much more value, how much more relationship, or how much more relational does your organization look to your audience when you bother to take the time to engage them? [00:22:06] Stewart Severino:  Beyond just your service as it relates to your service, right? So, looking at the iPhone example again, what if there were some careful pieces of content for parents who decided to give their children an iPad or an iPhone? What would that have looked like today any different? I don't know, you know, it's a human condition, but that's my point is, do we have a corporate responsibility? [00:22:30] Tommy Thomas: Here's one from Thomas Edison, genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration. [00:22:40] Stewart Severino: How do you respond to that? Genius is 1 percent inspiration. And that's true, right? When you have an idea, what happens? It's like a light switch. You didn't think it through methodically, it just showed up in your brain. Right? It's like pop. You may have been processing it for weeks or days or whatever, but at one moment in time, in one second, something popped into your brain. And so that 1 percent is profound. And so, acknowledging that, right? And saying, wow, okay, where did that come from? What do I do with that? Yeah, so the rest of it is a lot of hard work. [00:23:16] Tommy Thomas: If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change. [00:23:23] Stewart Severino: If you never color outside the lines, the picture will never change. I was the worst at coloring, so, the picture always looked different for me, which is what helped me to never stay within the box. So I can appreciate that quote. I had problems with that growing up. I had problems with that in my career It never looked like how my bosses wanted it to look and I suffered for that. You know, I would jump around I always wanted different experiences. And so, when the guides in your life are saying, hey, longevity, longevity, longevity. When that was being told, there was something that bothered me about that. I said, I understand that. I understand the commitment, but I want variety, variety, variety. [00:24:07] Stewart Severino: And so, I would take two, three-year stints and rotate. And while you have recruiters shaking their heads at that, I'm like, this is going to serve me well somewhere. Because I have touched just about every vertical there is. And that cumulative experience has really helped the organizations that I have served because I get to borrow from other industries that I would never have touched before.  So, I appreciate coloring outside the lines. [00:24:38] Tommy Thomas: From Margaret Thatcher, you may have to fight a battle more than once to win it. [00:24:44] Stewart Severino: Isn't that our daily challenge? Every day, every time your feet touch that floor, you know, you're engaging in battle. So, the perseverance that is needed, comes from a strength that's definitely outside of you. [00:24:58] Tommy Thomas: Winston Churchill, to improve is to change. To be perfect is to change often. [00:25:07] Stewart Severino: Assuming you can get to a point of perfection, you'd have to change pretty much every single moment. [00:25:15] Tommy Thomas: Last one, Albert Einstein. Problems cannot be solved on the same level of thinking at which they were created. [00:25:28] Stewart Severino: Man, you're just throwing tough ones at me today. You know, and I have to say there's truth in that because it's like trying to use finite words to describe an infinite God. You just can't do it. Right. And that's why we have faith. That's why it's called faith. [00:25:44] Tommy Thomas: Let's close this out with a little bit of a lightning round. If you had a do-over in your life, what would it be? [00:25:53] Stewart Severino: Wow, that's like saying, hey, which is your biggest regret? How would you start over? Um, I think my biggest do over, my one do over would be, seeking mentors, and trusting in other older males to walk alongside me. [00:26:12] Tommy Thomas: If you could go back in time and tell a younger version of yourself one thing, what would that be? [00:26:24] Stewart Severino: I'd have to say, seek humility, seek humility, you know, because a lot of the errors in my life have been because of pride. [00:26:48] Tommy Thomas: Is there anything about the overall, scope of innovation and organizational leadership that we haven't touched that you think would be good to include in this conversation? [00:26:58] Stewart Severino: I think for those that have a deep desire, and a realistic interest in implementing innovation or a department of innovation in the organization, there has to be buy-in. There has to be buying at the top and there has to be a commitment once that individual or those individuals enter into the department, because the last thing you want is that one individual to be introduced and then have to fight an uphill battle. [00:27:29] Stewart Severino: So, we haven't really discussed or gotten into what it looks like from a cultural standpoint within the organization, but that's one of the first things I looked for before taking a role in innovation is saying, do I have support at the top? And what is that going to look like as I get going? [00:27:47] Stewart Severino: Will I continue to have support or am I going to have opposition or are there others that are just rolling their eyes like, oh, okay, one more thing, you know, that I have to deal with, right? Those are realities and we're human and we have enough on our plates. And so, these are questions that need to be thoroughly considered. [00:28:06] Stewart Severino: So, I would say at the highest level, if you're entertaining having an innovation department, you know, consider how much dedication and support you're going to give to this role. ++++++++++++++ [00:28:19] Tommy Thomas: Thank you for joining us today. If you are a first-time listener, I hope you will subscribe and become a regular. You can find links to all the episodes on our website: www.jobfitmatters.com/podcast. [00:28:43] Tommy Thomas: If there are topics you'd like for me to explore my email address is tthomas@jobfitmatters.com. Word of mouth has been identified as the most valuable form of marketing. Surveys tell us that consumers believe recommendations from friends and family over all other forms of advertising. [00:29:07] Tommy Thomas: If you've heard something today that's worth passing on, please share it with others. You're already helping me make something special for the next generation of nonprofit leaders. I'll be back next week with a new episode. Until then, stay the course on our journey to help make the nonprofit sector more effective and sustainable.   Links & Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Perfect Search – What every board needs to know about hiring their next CEO The Navigators    Connect tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Follow Tommy on LinkedIn   Listen to Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas on: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher | Google Podcasts      

Quick, what's the most important thing you should be focusing on right now to build your business? Is it traffic? Starting an email list? Creating a product? Branding? Website? Keywords? Something else? Or maybe all of that, plus a dozen more “must do” projects. If that big pile of unfinished, disorganized ideas is weighing you down and causing you to rethink you goal of even starting a business, this episode and those that follow in this series are for you. Grab a notebook and a pen, sit back, and get ready to find your focus and nail those first critical steps towards a sustainable, profitable online business. You've got this. What you'll learn in this episode: The most important place you can be spending your time right now, when you're just getting ready to launch your business A surprising benefit of regular content creation (and it's not about traffic or list-building or even product creation) How to finally get clear on your niche (takes five seconds) Why you should stop worrying about SEO (maybe not forever, but definitely for now) Why you don't need a website to get started (I never, ever thought I'd say that, but it's true) Why it's critical that you focus on just one thing, and that you don't get hung up in the details Resources mentioned: Six-Figure Systems is my monthly program where you'll learn the strategies and tactics that are working right now in the digital marketing space. Dawson Trotman was an evangelist and founder of the Navigators. Brooke Castillo is the founder of the Life Coach School. Medium.com invites content creators in any niche to share their expertise and ideas for free. Substack.com lets independent writers and podcasters publish directly to their audience and get paid through subscriptions.

Dawson Trotman founded The Navigators in the 1930's with a vision to "Know Christ, Make Him Known, and Help Others do the Same". I've been working for them since I graduated from college in 2005. This episode briefly covers the history of The Navigators and a few notes from Trotman's famous message "Born to Reproduce". What are the issues that will prevent the Christian from being spiritually fruitful?

Have you ever wondered about the real power of faith, hope, and kindness in the world? Ever thought of the kind of impact one person can make on the world for Christ? Well, join us on this incredible journey as we traverse from Eastern Kentucky to Central Africa, unfolding inspiring stories of hope, faith, and resilience in the most challenging conditions. Be prepared to be moved by the story of Chime, a young Central African dreamer who aspires to preach the gospel amidst a remarkable revival that's turning millions to God. Stepping into this episode, we're propelled to live beyond good intentions and harness our potential for Christ. Drawing lessons from the lives of Eric Little, David, Moses, and Dawson Trotman, we'll explore how they visualized and actualized the harvest of changed lives. From the enduring symbols of Noah's flood and the rainbow of promise to Moses's leadership in guiding people to the promised land, we'll see how biblical stories still resonate today and inspire us to leave a lasting impact. Picture the thumbprint you could be leaving on the world around you!To top it off, we delve into how the Hippo Valley Christian Mission is transforming lives through small acts of kindness and how you can do the same. We discuss how to develop a mission, foster an attitude of encouragement, and step up to act on a vision from God, even if it challenges your own plans. As we wrap up, we join in prayer for Jason and his family, leading Follansbee Church, and ask for the Holy Spirit to fill this place with contagious love. So whether you're seeking inspiration or ready to take action, this episode is sure to give you the exhilarating push you need.

[00:00:00] Jerry White: Risk has to be uncertain categories. There's legal risk, there's financial risk, and then there's what I call uncontrolled risk of things you don't expect that the government may impose. What if they decide for our property at Glen Erie that it no longer is going be tax exempt? Or what if the state were to do that sort of thing? Those are risks over which we have no control. The risk on leveraged investments, I think, is quite important. For instance, you may propose to a larger organization a $3 million project, but the money is not in the bank. And you have four donors who said they'll fund it, but will they, and if they do, what voice should they have in it? That's a huge thing.  Money given with strings attached is really quite risky. +++++++++++++++++++++ [00:01:02] Tommy Thomas: In this episode, we will conclude the conversation that we began with Jerry White in Episode 85. If you didn't hear that episode, Jerry White is the President Emeritus of The Navigators International. Prior to that he enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force, retiring as a two-star general. One of the reasons I wanted Jerry to be a guest is because of the depth of his nonprofit board service.  Among the boards he has served include  World Vision,  The Navigators.  Christian Leadership Alliance.  The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. The Lausanne Committee on World Evangelization.  The Air Force Association.  Let's pick up the conversation where we were beginning to discuss board governance.  Let's shift over to board service. How did your first board show up? [00:01:56] Jerry White: My first board that I served on was a small organization and besides a church board, every board is different. When I got into leading boards, like the Christian Leadership Alliance and being on boards like World Vision and leading The Navigator board the biggest thing is who you have on the board.  And that they understand what their role is on the board.  And my view is that they're not operational. They don't make operational decisions, and they give the CEO a clear path to glide on. And hold that person accountable. And on the board service, I found it extremely important to have people of varied backgrounds and competencies so that we weren't all monolithic and the board could not be a rubber stamp board, whatever the leader wants. Yeah, that's fine. Just go ahead and do it. But to take on true, what I call policy governance, and to realize that you aren't running it, but you're holding the CEO accountable for what they say they're going to do. And once in a while you have to intervene.  [00:03:14] Tommy Thomas: You mentioned having the right people on the board.  What is the secret sauce? [00:03:20] Jerry White: One secret sauce is you don't bring them on just because they've got money. That's probably the worst criteria you can have if people do not share the vision of that organization on whose board they serve. You don't want them on there. And if they happen to have wealth and are generous people, that's fine, but we don't own them. They have to be people who give more broadly. And before we bring someone on the board we have to first make sure for me, in the Christian world, to make sure that there are people of spiritual maturity. Not just people with a high reputation or lead a big church or are well known. I would not care if none of the people on my board were well known as long as they were people of high integrity and then have had some experience. We're always pushing for getting a younger generation of board members, but there's a limit to that. You have to be sure that they're really qualified as they come in. And then the next thing that I feel is extremely important is you train. You train them how to be a board member and what's expected of them as a board member. In a few weeks, I'll be going to Kenya with The Navigators and we'll be gathering the board chairman from all over the world for a time of interaction and sharing. That's a trickier one, by the way, when you become a board chair, is how to become a board chair, particularly in our developing world where things aren't quite westernized as much. Yeah. And what should a board really do? Because people have different experiences. It's different from a second board, a secondary board who has financial responsibility and is held accountable for the quantitative results of the organization. That's a whole different picture, a different kind of board. [00:05:40] Tommy Thomas:  Let's go to the board chair. Give me some words and phrases that would describe the best board chair you've ever seen or served under.  [00:05:48] Jerry White: I'll tell you, there are two board chairs that I think of. One was a man by the name of Clay Brown. He wasn't the board chair, because I was chairman at the time. But he was certainly the key senior statesman on our board. He was measured. He was wise. He had a strong business background, and he had a passion for what we did. Our current Board Chair for The Navigators is doing an absolutely remarkable job and he leads several companies but has really given himself to being Chairman of The Navigator US board. The other thing is that the Board Chairman cannot be a jack of all trades. In other words, they can't be chairman of five different boards at once. Because I don't think anybody who has another job has that kind of time. But in knowing that they bear a particular responsibility within that organization to draw together the board, the executive team or the executive committee, and to really help lead them and keep them in their track and their track being on the policy governance side. And so the board chairs, and when I've done a board, I hope I've done this, is to really be prepared. You do not do this on the backhand, walking into a board meeting and 10 minutes ahead of time asking the CEO – what's the agenda? [00:07:25] Tommy Thomas:  Speaking about that working relationship, I know that's critical. Think back on your experience. How often does the Board Chair need to meet with his or her CEO? [00:07:35] Jerry White: First of all, they need to be friends, but I remember as a board member of a particular organization I wanted to be friends with the CEO and very much was. Then I became Board Chair and I said to him, our relationship is going to be a little different. I am your friend, but also, I'm accountable for the direction of the organization. And therefore, I'm going to be asking things of you that maybe I would not do if I was just a good buddy walking alongside and wanting to affirm you. So I think you need to be friends, but you'll also need to know that you have the responsibility for the policy direction of the organization and for the health and wellbeing of the CEO.  [00:08:27] Tommy Thomas: Go to that board meeting for a minute. What's been your best experience and who sets the agenda for the Board Meeting? [00:08:32] Jerry White:  For me, the Executive Committee needs to set the agenda. It needs to be proposed by the CEO because he knows the action items. And you've got certain performer things you've got to do on accountability of finances and income and disbursements and so forth and certain things on personnel. But I would want the CEO to come up with a list of what needs to be addressed, work with that CEO and perhaps the CFO to create an agenda with the Executive Committee that actually says how is this going to serve the work? And what are the decisions?  And I have three ways of assessing an agenda for the Board Meeting. What is information? We don't have to make any decision on it.  What is counsel? The CEO or somebody wants counsel on a particular item.  What decision needs to be made? So, every topic in the board meeting, I like to write along the side, the margin, inform counsel, decide. [00:09:48] Tommy Thomas: From a functional point of view, they wouldn't necessarily be in any order. They just as they come up, they're one of those three.  [00:09:58] Jerry White: No, it'd be one of the three. Your board meeting is usually divided into segments.  The CEO Report The Field Ministry Report The CFO Report Then there's a legal report. There may be certain personnel decisions that need to be affirmed. And by the way, that could be another way you would put it to affirm a decision. That's a little weak. And so you would structure your meeting not according to what you're going to decide, but according to what topics need to be addressed in the 24 hours you have together. And by the way, to really require that homework be done on the part of the staff making the decisions that “read-aheads” are there. And the right people come to make reports inside the meetings.  ++++++++++++++++++++   [00:10:51] Tommy Thomas: When somebody joins your board what does onboarding look like? [00:10:55] Jerry White: The onboarding looks for several organizations I've been working for two to three years with before they come on board, talking with them about it, seeing their interest,  getting a biography, bringing it to what I would call the nomination committee of the board. And the good boards that I work with have a roster of people that they're talking to that's very confidential and some of them never come on the board. And then as they are approaching it, you may even ask someone to actually sit in on a board meeting. And to see whether or not it meets their expectations. That isn't always possible. But in one board that I'm on, we have some junior members on it. This is on a board where we have younger leaders who come and serve for two years, and they don't stay on the board, just to give them experience. But then when you're onboarding, every board annually at least, there needs to be, in my mind, an orientation for the board where you go over the history of the board, you go over things. So they're not just in a befuddled mystery at terminology and history. It's like being in a family joke and nobody knows what the story was behind it. They have things that are ongoing and they have no clue. We need to bring them up to speed, both emotionally, historically, and personally. And it doesn't need to be long. It's for maybe half a day. And I've done this in a secular organization too, insisting that no one come on the board who doesn't have some orientation, both as to what a board does and what a board has done. [00:12:55] Tommy Thomas: Do you do a meeting evaluation or how do you keep your meetings fresh?  [00:13:00] Jerry White: Most boards do have a little evaluation afterward that they fill out. It's often, Tommy, their perfunctory and there of some limited value, the value mainly being that you asked, but I think the Chairman and the CEO, when they see things happening in the board, that afterwards they need to interact with them and saying, what do you think about it? How do you feel that board meeting went? And now that you've been in on X number of board meetings, say to tell me what you think and how can we help you be a better board member? Committee assignments are pretty important. Also, when I went on one board, it took me, Tommy, it took me two years to really figure out what was going on. And I served nine years and it was such a complex organization that it was really hard and took a lot of work to try and understand the dynamics behind this organization  [00:14:08] Tommy Thomas: Let me ask you to respond to this quote. “You need a director on the board who will be a pleasant irritant. Someone who will force people to think a little differently.  That's what a good board does.”  [00:14:21] Jerry White: In one board that I'm on, we appoint someone at every board meeting to be what we call a responsible skeptic. And that person is designated ahead of time. And that person, their job in that board meeting is to be a bit skeptical. Now, I think you have to be a little careful about always having a person who's always skeptical. I don't think I want a board member who every time something comes up, they raise their eyebrow, and you wonder what they're thinking. I think everybody ought to be a little skeptical at some time. And the main thing is if they don't understand something they need to ask. In other words, they need to do it. I was in a board meeting recently where a particular decision was in the process. And two of us on the board, I was an emeritus to the board, and the other was on the board. And I could tell there was a bit of discomfort. And so the chair asked that other person, they hadn't said anything, what do you think? And came up with a pretty good counter. Now I haven't got real good hearing, so I couldn't hear what he said. And then the board chair said, Jerry, what do you think? And I was like a deer caught in the headlights. And I said I couldn't hear what he said. And I said, we said exactly the same thing. And what was moving down the road to be a crafted decision was put aside and not done. I'm very wary of creating board actions on the spot, a statement or whatever it may be. The best way is to say, would somebody take this and come up in three or four hours, take a coffee break and craft us a statement on what we're trying to do. So I do believe that the chair needs to be able to look in the eyeball all around the way and see if there are some questions or if someone has been particularly silent, I think you need to say what do you think?  ++++++++++++++++   [00:16:34] Tommy Thomas: How do you draw that quiet board member out?  Some people just don't speak up unless they have something to say, which is probably a good thing. But how do you draw the quiet person out?  [00:16:46] Jerry White: I just say, Jack, what do you think about that? I say be very direct. I say, you've been listening to this discussion. Do you have anything to say? I don't want to force him to have to say something, but I say, this may be the expertise of the person that I'm asking. And I'll say Joan, your expertise is in this area, I know you've been through this before. What are we not hearing? What questions do you have? And that gives them freedom to speak out. And the other thing is I don't think people should speak out, particularly declaratively. That is, I believe this, and you got to do this. And I don't like that because that puts themselves on the table. But people learn to be able to share in a non-confrontive fashion. [00:17:44] Tommy Thomas: Let's go to financial accountability. You and I are old enough to remember the Enron scandal, and then if you've been paying any attention to the last two or three days, you've seen the Silicon Valley Bank go under.  In both of those things, there was board culpability. Neither were nonprofit, but they will both board culpability.  How do you get your boards to make sure you're addressing the financial aspect, a judiciary responsibility of the board?  [00:18:10] Jerry White:  It's a CEO's responsibility to make sure that the right questions are answered.  And it's got to be more than just an audit.  We want a clean audit. And you don't want to have to go to the bottom notes and say, here's something we should correct, but we need to guide the board through the financial realities of what we're doing. But at the end of it, I think you need to have a risk analysis that says, okay, where are we vulnerable? For instance, in our litigious society today, we have a lot of risk, and I think of ministries that have Christian camps and all the sexual liabilities and all of that. They are at risk all the time when you're working with minors and then I think people need to ask questions of the CFO and the auditor, where do you see us being at risk? What would happen if, what if happened? You have a September 11 or you have a Covid pandemic. And you have to say, our whole income stream is going to be jeopardized. And then I think you need to look and say, where are our major vulnerabilities for both expenditure as well as income? Now that's, it's very different in a Christian organization than it is a secular organization like an Enron or the banks or whatever it is. The fault there goes so that people don't ask questions, or that the actual realities have been hidden from it and just saying, oh, it'll be okay.  ++++++++++++++++++= [00:19:56] Tommy Thomas: From your perspective, how does the board get involved in strategic planning?  [00:20:02] Jerry White: Boy, that is a good question, Tommy. The question is, who does the strategic planning? Okay. Let's say that we're in a very small developing organization amid developing, and a large organization, they're very different and the very smallest organizations, the board may be highly engaged in the strategic plan because it's such a small organization and they're so fragile. As a general rule of thumb, the board may do strategic thinking, but strategic planning has to be on the part of the CEO and his or her staff. And the plan needs to be brought to the board for their interaction. And then approval. And that's particularly true with a large organization. The board can't do strategic planning. They can do some strategic planning for the board. That is, how should we develop our board? What expertise do we need? But as far as a ministry for most organizations, as large as the navigators or crew or some others, they aren't gonna know the details of what's going on out in the field or how they have to pretty well react and respond to the strategic planning initiatives that they may come up with. How many staff, what countries are we doing to go into? What are we not going to do? What are we gonna stop doing etc. So the board certainly needs to approve the strategic plan. Chances are, even when they do that, They won't know it very well. I'm just sorry that, when you're not, when you don't have to carry out a strategic plan, it's hard to really know it. [00:22:00] Tommy Thomas: The ones that created it, that have been involved in hammering it out, they're the ones that know it. [00:22:06] Jerry White: That's right. And then you have to, with every strategic plan, you have to set, have a set of outcomes and a set of risks, and then you have to say, how much is it going to cost to implement this? [00:22:22] Tommy Thomas: I think the risk thing, that could almost be a podcast in and of itself. I interviewed Dr. Sandra Gray, the President Emeritus at Asbury University and she was a former banker before she got into higher ed. And her thought was that nonprofit boards probably don't pay enough attention to the risk of the organization. [00:22:40] Jerry White: I think there's no question on that, especially risk has to be uncertain categories.  There's legal risk, there's financial risk, and then there's what I call uncontrolled risk of things you don't expect that the government may impose. What if they decide for our property at Glen Erie that it no longer is going to be tax exempt? Or what if the state were to do that sort of thing? Those are risks over which we have no control and the risk on leveraged investments, I think is quite important. For instance, you may propose to a larger organization a $3 million project, but the money is not in the bank. And you have four donors who said they'll fund it, but will they, and if they do, what voice should they have in it?  That's a huge thing. Money given with strings on it is really quite risky.  [00:23:46] Tommy Thomas: Hadn't thought of that. [00:23:46] Jerry White: And I've served on the board of the ECFA and they're very good at this. In terms of helping people think through risk and failure and financial accountability.  [00:24:01] Tommy Thomas: Let's look at the CEO evaluation.  I know you've been involved in a number of those, and you've been evaluated as a CEO. What are some takeaways? [00:24:10] Jerry White: You must be evaluated. Now we have a number of kinds of evaluations. You have a 360 evaluation, and some people are very skilled at that. It's very threatening to some CEOs, but it's necessary. I feel that there needs to be an evaluation within the organization, I had one. I had someone who evaluated me every year and they had the freedom, and they did call my wife, call my kids, talked to my coworkers, my peers, talked to those who worked for me, gave a free reign to ask certain questions. The questions need to be carefully thought through. They can't be so invasive. But the evaluation is of several levels. One is certain on a moral personal level. I do not think a committee can do that. Every CEO needs to have the kind of people in their lives who will blow the whistle on them if they say anything wrong. And the small Executive Committee needs to be aware of how that could happen. The second in terms of an evaluation is performance against set out goals. The third is relational. How's their team going? What do they think? What are the issues? And to give the feedback to the CEO and I think to give it privately and then in the board, and we do this to give a summary analysis, but the board should not be privy to the detailed questions. It's a really touchy process. And the evaluation needs to be, not be a pass fail, but Loren Sanny taught me it should be a progress review. How are you making progress toward the things that you have said you want to do? [00:26:15] Tommy Thomas: Let me close with a question that I ask often, particularly to people that have been on boards a long time as you have. How has board service changed over the last decade?  [00:26:25] Jerry White: I'm not sure about the last decade, but certainly over the last two decades the area of risk and financial accountability has increased tremendously. The litigiousness of our society has made a tremendous impact on how a board functions. So those two things, the financial accountability and the potential lawsuits and things of that nature. Tommy, I don't know that I can make a generalist statement about how boards have changed, but I can say that through the last 20 to 30 years, the boards have become more important and more vital to our organization's future than they were a number of years ago. Many years ago, even in The Navigators, the board was a cheering section for Dawson Trotman and Lawrence Annie.  Go get 'em and thanks for letting us know what's going on. To a point where we had to be accountable for the finances. 911 changed everything, by the way, particularly for anyone operating internationally. When you're sending money across international boundaries, you have a whole different level of accountability financially imposed by the government. And I'm speaking only from the viewpoint of the United States, and you get into all these other countries with all different kinds of demands and requirements and corruption and what have you. The boards have become far more important to the organization's health. And I think the public has a right to know who's on your board. And when I look at an organization as I've done even the last few days, and I look through who the board members are, it isn't that I need to know them, but that they're there as real people with real names that if one needed to, you could connect with them. ++++++++++++++++++++++ I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jerry White. If you're ever at a conference where Jerry is speaking or leading a breakout session, make sure you attend those sessions. We all have so much to learn from Jerry White. Our guest next week is Paul Mauer. Paul is the president of Montreat College.  When Paul was selected to be the President of Montreat, the college wasn't very far from closing its doors. What has happened at Montreat over the past nine years is nothing short of miraculous.  [00:29:06] Paul Maurer: I started my first presidency 13 or 14 years ago, and I remember going to the president's conferences and coming back after two or three of those, and I said to my cabinet, here's my takeaway, change or die. And then I was out of the presidency for a couple years. I began to go back to those meetings again. When I came to Montreat nine years ago, I came back to my cabinet, I said, they've inserted the words fast change, faster, die. We've taken on the mindset of a startup. So, we consider ourselves a 107-year-old startup. We're not a turnaround. We're not maintainers.  We're not traditionalists. We try to employ the principles of a startup, meaning we're creating something new. And so, I think in the next five to ten years, we're going to see a pretty dramatic change in the number of colleges and universities in the United States. The enrollment cliff is real. The declining birth rates are real. And it's going to have a really major impact on the number of schools that close.   Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas The Navigators Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability Christian Leadership Alliance   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Jerry White's LinkedIn Profile  

[00:00:00] Jerry White: The best lesson that I have learned is that I need to accept responsibility for what I do, to admit when I need help and to be absolutely of high integrity and faithfulness in carrying out what I say I will do. The second thing that I would say was that people are my most important asset. +++++++++++++++++ Tommy Thomas: Our guest today is Jerry White, The President Emeritus for The Navigators International. Jerry enjoyed a distinguished career in the United States Air Force, starting out in mission control during the very early days of the American space program. He retired from the Air Force as a two-star general.  I must confess that I was a bit nervous about interviewing Jerry. Aside from his distinguished military career, he's an accomplished writer and is very prominent in Christian ministry circles. I even went so far as to ask Doug Nuenke, a previous podcast guest and close friend of Jerry's to be my co-host for the episode.  But on the day of the recording, Doug had a family emergency and had to bow out. In the end, it turned out to be a wonderful experience for me. Jerry was a great guest, very genuine and transparent. Let's pick up the conversation.  [00:01:24] Tommy Thomas: Before we get too deep into your professional career, take me back a little bit to your upbringing and your childhood. What was that like?  [00:01:31] Jerry White: Let me just summarize that for you. And I'm headed back there within the next day or two because a cousin just died and I'll be performing a memorial service. I grew up in a little town in Iowa by the name of Garden City, 100 people, a farm community north of Ames, just off I-35. My mother had me when she was 17, my father divorced her, abandoned us when I was an infant. So I was raised in that little Norwegian farm community by my mother and my grandfather, and had a wonderful upbringing. I still go back there, and I know all the families and they know us. And then that, of course was a disaster for my mother. What was a disaster for me is at age eight, my mother remarried, and we got in the car with a new stepfather whom I did not really know at all, and headed west for Spokane, Washington, leaving behind everything that I knew and loved and cared for. And I was one upset and anxious kid. And I should say that my stepfather was a wonderful person. I have absolutely zero negative to say about him. He was stuck with us as a new father with a spoiled young eight-year-old. We got to Spokane, Washington, and it was in that context that a group of businessmen in post-World War for our country and the USA veterans were coming back and we had a community center there, and we were in a neighborhood where there was no church. And he and a group of business guys, ordinary men, started a Sunday school. And I started going to that and really started thinking through and being confronted with who Jesus was and the gospel. And so, at about age 11, I made a personal commitment to Christ. And this man, Bob Sheffler, was my mentor for his entire life. He guided me through those early years. My parents did not know the Lord and they later came to faith, and he didn't know that he was discipling, but he was discipling me. And when I went off after high school, by the way, having been very involved in Youth for Christ and my church and many other things, off to study electrical engineering, it was Bob that drove me across the state of Washington to Seattle at the University of Washington, told me where to live, and dropped me off. And it was there that I met The Navigators. My first roommate had been led to Christ by The Navigators and he started to disciple me, teach me how to have a quiet time, scripture, memory, and study the Bible. And so that was my early childhood. And it was traumatic. It was not easy. And but God stepped in and really changed my life, and I made Lordship commitments and ended up at a university in touch with The Navigators.  Though, The Navigators weren't really very big then. [00:04:47] Tommy Thomas: So how did you choose electrical engineering?  [00:04:50] Jerry White: I was pretty good at math and none of my family really had gone to university and so I just fell into it. I said that's one of the more difficult subjects and I'm pretty good in mathematics. So, when I signed up, I signed up for electrical engineering. I didn't know hardly anything about it, to be honest with you. And so that's how I ended up there. And I struggled through, I made it, I didn't know whether I was smart or whether I wasn't, and stayed with electrical engineering and ended up getting a bachelor's degree in it. [00:05:27] Tommy Thomas: I was the same way. I studied EE and it was a hard road for me. It was a hard way to go to college.  [00:05:32] Jerry White: Yeah, it was. We had a whole bunch of navy veterans who were electronic technicians and all the labs I would go into, I didn't know what end was up, and they just did it just like this. They knew everything and I was just struggling to figure out what end was up. And I worked my way through college. I did not have any scholarships of any sort. And so, it was a hard time, but it was also a time of tremendous growth spiritually. And it was there that I met Mary and we were married before our senior year in college, and she went to work for Boeing Aircraft Company, dropped out of school and I doubled up to 21, 22 and 23 hours and just forced my way through that last year of school. And on the day I graduated, I was commissioned in the Air Force and we jumped in the car and headed into the United States Air Force. +++++++++++++++++   [00:06:31] Tommy Thomas: So, when you went into the Air Force, were you thinking it would be a career at that point?  [00:06:36] Jerry White: No, everybody had to serve in the universal draft. I went through the Air Force, ROTC, and went into pilot training. And I was just going to serve. I had no idea, Tommy, whether I'd be a career or not because Boeing Aircraft Company had a job waiting for me. And so, I figured I'd serve whatever time I need to serve and probably end up coming back to Seattle. But it didn't go the way I planned. I flew for a year and was just near the end of pilot training. And though I didn't know it, they needed to get rid of about a third of the pilot training class. And never having failed at any flights or anything, I had one not too good of a ride in formation jet and went up and took the next ride and the instructor landed and he said, Well White, you can fly two ship jet formation. Okay, but I don't think you're gonna be able to fly four ship formation, and within three days I was out of pilot training. Done. No recourse. So, we said, what in the world is going on? I'd never failed at anything.  And so, we prayed and said just told the Air Force, send us anywhere you want. Just give me an engineering job somewhere. And with absolutely no hint from me or any input from anybody that I know, the Air Force sent me to Cape Canaveral in the New American Space Program. Tommy, I didn't even know who it was . And I became a mission controller, got right smack in the middle of all of the new stuff that the Air Force was doing. The man flights, the Mercurys, the Geminis, Atlas, Titan, Polaris, you name it. And every conceivable kind of rocket. And in that I got a new glimpse of the future. [00:08:35] Tommy Thomas: What do you remember about your first management job?  [00:08:39] Jerry White:  The first management job was in the Air Force. I was one of six mission controllers, and we had to manage all the assets on the Atlantic missile range for all of the contractors and projects that were going on at the time. And the first thing I remember is how do you please everybody when you can't give everybody what they want? And so, I would put together each week a plan for the entire missile range, for all the tests, all the launches, all the ground tests, and then walk into a session of 50 contractors at each other's throats and mine for vying for time on the range. And it really taught me how to navigate some hard waters. And it taught me that I needed to know what I was doing. And so it was a good time. It wasn't classically a management job because I wasn't in charge of anybody, but I was in charge of assets and had to work with people over whom I had no authority. And that was probably the best thing for me. [00:09:53] Tommy Thomas:  I was going to say you may not have had the authority, but you had to have the influence.  [00:09:58] Jerry White:  I did have authority in the sense that I could say no to anything when I worked as a mission controller, if I had to make decisions related to the range and the tests and with people who were far outranked me. Because when you're in the spot, you have the authority. [00:10:17] Tommy Thomas: You're the third general officer that I've had the privilege to interview. One of them, Jack Briggs at the Springs Rescue Mission, of course. And I don't know that you'd ever have met Mark McQueen. He was a two-star in the army.  He's a city manager at Panama City now. And he stepped into his job as city manager 10 days before Hurricane Michael hit Panama City. [00:10:36] Jerry White:  Oh my goodness.  [00:10:38] Tommy Thomas: That was a baptism by fire for him. I asked both of these guys the question,  What's the most important lesson you learned in the military that you've carried forward? [00:10:48] Jerry White:   The best lesson that I have learned is that I need to accept responsibility for what I do, to admit when I need help and to be absolutely of high integrity and faithfulness in carrying out what I say I will do. I'd say that was the key thing that I learned. The second thing that I would say was that people are my most important asset. Nothing happens without people. I also learned that even though you're in an authoritarian environment in the military you don't misuse your authority. You don't lord it over anybody, but everybody. The colonels and generals who worked for me, I told them, I said, ladies and gentlemen, we're overhead. We don't fix airplanes. We don't fly them. We don't create them. Our job is totally to clear the way so that the people really doing the work can actually do the work out in the field. I learned that by the school of hard knocks in terms of making a lot of mistakes and watching some pretty good people who were leaders. [00:12:04] Tommy Thomas: I want to ask you a second chances question. I've got some good responses from this. Richard Paul Evans, a novelist, said, “Sometimes the greatest hope in our life is just a second chance to do what we should have done right the first time.” And I'm sure you've had the opportunity in the past to make that kind of decision. What goes into your mind and heart when you're thinking about giving somebody and senior leadership a second chance for something fairly egregious?  [00:12:33] Jerry White:   If you have something fairly egregious it depends on several things. One is moral, the second is legal, and the third is judgment. In other words, they just made a mistake. The moral and the legal. You have to abide by the policies in place and you need to hold people accountable. And I've had that both in The Navigators as well as in the military, but when a person's performance is not up to par, then well, what I ask them, I said, okay, here is my highest value. My highest value is if you tell me you're going to do something, then I expect you to do it. And if you can't do it, I want you to tell me. And if you need help, please ask. But please do not tell me that you're going to do something and then not do it. So, I hold them accountable and then if they, nobody is perfect.  I've had people who didn't do all that I wanted them to do, and I have to discern whether it's an issue of competence, character, or some other thing that they just did not know what to do. But the basic thing is not to wait until they fail. In other words, to walk with your subordinates, if you want to call it that, as they're going through the process. So both of you can catch it if it isn't going the right direction. And in that regard, particularly in The Navigators, which is a volunteer organization, you really want to give people a challenge. But I still remember so many challenges I had that I did not have a clue what to do and had to get lots of help. And I made lots of mistakes and people were very tolerant of me. Didn't make any egregious mistakes, but ones that were enough to know that I wasn't performing as well as I could have.  ++++++++++++++++++++   [00:14:40] Tommy Thomas: Let me go to maybe a deeper side of that, and let's think about dangerous behaviors that you've seen that derail leader's careers. The biggest thing that derails leaders' careers is not understanding themselves and their own gifts and limitations. But the worst is when they have a moral failure. And I don't necessarily mean sexually moral, a moral failure in terms of integrity and judgment. [00:14:47] Jerry White:  The biggest thing that derails leaders' careers is not understanding themselves and their own gifts and limitations. But the worst is when they have a moral failure. And I don't necessarily mean sexually moral, a moral failure in terms of integrity and judgment. The thing I look for in a leader is that they're a learner. That they know what they know. They know what they don't know, and they're always on the grow. That is, they are learning to develop themselves and they don't make excuses. When they don't do quite well, they take the responsibility rather than trying to cover up for themselves.  Anybody who will admit that they did something wrong and said, I need to learn how to do that better, I've got a lot of hope for that person because then they'll grow, they'll continue to engage. People gave me second chances. People took a risk with me on many things. And put their own careers on the line instead of just saying, oh it's too much of a risk. And I've had several things where that's happened. I remember one situation, I was going over into a war zone in a critical area of Croatia, and there were some questions at the Pentagon as to why I was doing this.  And I had a reason. And the latter says, if Jerry says it's important, we'll back him and let me go. Because they trusted me.  [00:16:23] Tommy Thomas: Let's change over to mentors for a minute. You mentioned the guy early in your life that gave you the road to the University of Washington and helps you out there.  Who else has been an influential mentor to you? [00:16:32] Jerry White: There were several people. This was a businessman, Bob Sheffler, who was my early mentor. Then in the Air Force when I failed out of pilot training, there was an instructor pilot by the name of Bill Waldrip. He became very significant in leadership in the Officers Christian Fellowship. And Bill and Doris really were our friends, and he was a mentor who was always there. We worked together through the years, both with The Navs and with Officers Christian Fellowship (OCF) and I would ask him for council when I was going to leave the Air Force and come full-time with The Navigators. Bill is one of the men that I called and asked for counsel. I had a pastor back in Dayton, Ohio, who was a wonderful man, and he really believed in us. Here we were just young. Officers, little kids. And he believed in us and he encouraged us. And then later on Loren Sanny, the former president of the Navigators and Leroy Eims, one of our key early leaders in The Navigators, all were wonderful mentors to me. And whether it was intentional mentoring, I don't know, but what they did is they gave me opportunities and they gave me counsel and they interacted with me. And I would listen to them very carefully as to their teaching and learn from them. Each of these people were very different. I don't know if any of them thought, oh, I'm mentoring Jerry. They were just giving their life to me at a point in time in my life when I needed them.  [00:18:13] Tommy Thomas: Do you think the most mentoring that you've done, has it been intentional, or do you think you just showed up? [00:18:19] Jerry White: Tommy, in these last years has been more intentional because through the Lausanne Movement and through other places people have asked me to mentor them and I make a difference between discipling. Of course, when you're doing like we do in The Navigators, it's one-on-one discipling, not exactly mentoring. That's helping people with spiritual growth, getting the going in their lives. Then we have what I call coaching. And coaching is where somebody really wants you to help. Send in the place, give guidance as they do it. But mentoring for me, working on their agenda and with a few people I'm mentoring right now I say, what do you want to learn? Where can I help you? What kinds of issues do you have? I have one man in Hawaii who calls me every three months and has a list of things he wants to talk about. And I go by his agenda, not by mind. Now, if I've got a young leader and perhaps someone who works for me, I'll be a bit more structured in terms of what I'll ask them to do and to coach them, to give them experiences, guided experiences and opportunities. ++++++++++++++++++   [00:19:37] Tommy Thomas: Thinking back over maybe the Air Force and or The Navigators, what's the most ambitious project you've ever tackled and how did you bring your team along?    [00:19:45] Jerry White: There were a lot of ambitious projects. Probably the most challenging was taking the responsibility for being president of The Navigators from Loren Sanny, who had been in the role for 30 years following Dawson Trotman. And the biggest project that we took on is who are The Navigators? What are we supposed to do and how should we do it? We needed to reassess the entire direction of The Navigators as we were growing by leaps and bounds internationally and in the US, and I still remember with my team trying to come up with things that we needed to do to bring these people together. And two of the attempts were wonderful attempts, but they didn't work. They were good. But they didn't work. And finally, as a team, we decided to bring the core leadership of The Navigators worldwide together in Cypress. And I'd say, okay, we've got a blank sheet of paper. Who are The Navigators? What has God called us to do and how should we do it? And God brought us through that time with an affirmation of what we call the core, our calling core vision, core values and vision. And we just did a review of that a few months ago. After 20 years. I expected it to last for 10 years, and it's lasted 20 now. It was not just me. What I did, I gave permission for the leaders to speak. Their heart. And I had a team that was a phenomenal team to help guide that along the way. That was probably the most ambitious thing I've ever undertaken. [00:21:50] Tommy Thomas: If we learn from our mistakes, why are most others so afraid to make mistakes?  [00:21:55] Jerry White: Usually it's pride and ego that we don't admit when we make mistakes. I think a big issue is that we don't understand our own limitations and who we are. And that's why I think that, as people grow in leadership, they need to assess who they are and what their needs are and what they can grow in. The one thing that keeps people from taking risks is fear. They're afraid they will fail. And if there's an atmosphere within their company, their ministry, their organization of not tolerating mistakes and failure, then you'll walk in fear. And if a leader has to have someone coming up to them every other day and asking, is this okay?  Is this okay? What must I do? That's not going to work. They've got to be willing to take risks and I have to be willing as a leader to take risks on them and to give them the reins and say, go after it. You do this. Do what is best in your own eyes, and if you need some help, let's talk about it. [00:23:12] Tommy Thomas:  What are you most excited about in life right now?  [00:23:16] Jerry White: Oh, I am most excited right now about the whole concept of the theology of work. That God calls us to our jobs, to our work, to be an engineer, to be a crane operator, to be a computer programmer, to be a manager, and to understand that God's great calling is not just to quote what we call ministry, but our ministry is our work. And the reason for that is that is where the lost people of this world are. They are the people that ordinary believers work alongside every day. And I'm very excited about that and I'm doing a lot of work with the Luanne movement and the theology of work and for our next Luanne Congress in September of next year to have upwards of 40% of the 5,000 coming out of the workplace. And besides, Tommy, the future of missions is going to be people going in their professions because we can't get into most countries that we want to go to.  ++++++++++++++++++++   [00:24:34] Tommy Thomas: Let me get you to respond to a couple of quotes before I jump over into board service some, because I want to make sure we have some time there. John Quincy Adams said, “Patience and persistence have a magical effect before which difficulties and obstacles vanish.” Any thoughts from your experience where you've seen patience and persistence work for you?  [00:24:55] Jerry White: They're two very different things. Patience is awaiting not seeing the results right away. The biggest one is persistence. When I look back over my career, I didn't think I was all that smart, but I was persistent, and I worked hard. So even when some of the most boring jobs or some of the most distasteful things, you are persistent and work through it. I have a little series of things when I say, okay, this is a good employee, someone who's competent. That as they know what to do and that they have character, obviously that's a huge one. But beyond that, they're faithful. And I will take faithfulness over the most competent person because I know that person will get the job done. The smartest guy or gal around, if they're not persistent and faithful, they will not get the job done. Everything has a deadline. And now the patience part, I've not given quite as much thought to that. But if there's patience, it's patience with people. And not usurping what they're doing and overriding them. I had to learn that early on that I, even though I could do it better than some other people, certain things I needed to let them do it. Just like your kids riding a tricycle or a bicycle, you have to let them fall. Maybe catch them when they fall, but patience in trusting them.  [00:26:43] Tommy Thomas: Somebody has compared leadership to a boat with two oars, one of the oars is people and relationships, the other is results.  Your thoughts?  [00:26:53] Jerry White: Certainly, the people are a key issue. I have to be a little careful about the results on that one. Certainly, everybody needs to have results. I would probably make the other, or goals and directions. In other words, to know where you're going. Because now do I want results? Yes, I do want results, but in so many cases we can't create the results, particularly in an organization like The Navigators or any of our Christian ministries. You can't make anything happen. The only thing you can do, Tommy, is to make an environment where something can happen and then see God miraculously work through it. But even in the secular world there is limited control over results and you have to let people do their job. And certainly, we need to have clearly defined outcomes that are adjusted quarter by quarter.  +++++++++++++++++++++ [00:28:00] Tommy Thomas: Thanks to Jerry White for a great conversation. Jerry will rejoin us in a few weeks to share leadership lessons on board governance that he has learned over the years.  In Episode 81, Christin McClave was our guest. We discussed her leadership journey from Johnson and Johnson to Cardon Industries and beyond. In addition to Christin's corporate leadership experience, she has a lot of experience serving on both private sector and nonprofit boards. Christen joins us next week to share insights on board governance.  [00:28:42] Christin McClave: The boards that I've been on that have been very well-functioning from a nonprofit standpoint, really do have a nice balance of people who are still in industry. People who are very well versed in audit and finance and can pick out what might not look right on the financials or where things are, could potentially go wrong in the future if they're not managed properly.    Links and Resources JobfitMatters Website Next Gen Nonprofit Leadership with Tommy Thomas Jerry White is a very accomplished writer.  Most of his books can be found at NavPress (www.navpress.com).  Others at Thrift Books (thriftbooks.com).  Three are listed below: Honesty, Morality, and Conscience: Making Wise Choices in the Gray Areas of Life – by Jerry White Friends and Friendship: The Secrets of Drawing Closer - by Jerry White Dangers Men Face, 25th Anniversary Edition - by Jerry White   Connect Tommy Thomas - tthomas@jobfitmatters.com Tommy's LinkedIn Profile Jerry White's LinkedIn Profile  

In episode 55 of the podcast Shad and Paul share about the life and legacy of Dawson Trotman, evangelist and founder of the Navigators. Show Notes: Discipleship Library Topical Memory System TF&TF Transferrable Concepts - Bill Bright Beginning With Christ - Booklet Lessons on Assurance - Booklet Jerry Bridges Living Legacy Leroy Imes (Lost Art of Disciplemaking) Design for Discipleship

One of the first men responsible for the follow up of those who came forward in a Billy Graham Crusade was Dawson Trotman. Tragically his life was ended long before it seemed his time was up. Bill Graham at the funeral focused on "How to destroy one's life:" this was of course in contrast to how Trotman had lived his life. Listen to the story at https://www.keyministries.net/podcast/episode/1cbf06ab/how-not-to-succeed --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/todayskey/message

In this episode I continue my series on campus ministries. My guest is Ben Nugent, the National Director of the The Navigator's campus ministry. As a Navigator staff for 21 years, Ben not only brings the perspective of a senior leader of the ministry to our conversation, but many years in Navigator campus ministry himself. He is the best person I know of to help understand how the Navigators minister to university students.  In this podcast we discuss: How Ben first got involved in The Navigators How The Navigators began The number and type of universities where The Navigators serve The Navigators' Mission The Navigators' activities on campus designed to fulfill their Mission The Navigators' ministry distinctives How similar The Navigators' ministries are campus-to-campus and region-to-region Who is required to affirm The Navigators' Statement of Faith Where The Navigators fall on the “Conservative to Progressive” continuum “Heros of the Faith” The Navigators hold up to students What The Navigators believe Christian students need to flourish during college The Navigators' greatest strength and weakness in student ministry How students can take advantage of this strength and compensate for this weakness Whether The Navigators have as set curriculum students go through How The Navigators help students develop a lifelong walk with Christ and ministry The Navigators' approach to the spiritual disciplines How The Navigators teaches students to be “in the world but not of the world” The Navigators' approach to “hot button” issues on campus like Critical Race Theory Why “fellowship is always missional” Why students should consider being involved in The Navigators Resources mentioned during our conversation: The Navigators' website The Navigators' Statement of Faith Dawson Trotman, Born to Reproduce Dawson Trotman, Dawson Trotman, In His Own Words “Jim Downing: Navigator #6” Jerry Bridges, The Pursuit of Holiness Jerry Bridges, The Discipline of Grace Jerry Bridges, The Gospel for Real Life The Wheel illustration NavPress Navigators Summer Training Programs

In this episode, Pastor Chris Kipp teaches a message entitled "Made To Multiply" from Acts 9:31 and 2 Timothy 2:2. Using the story of Dawson Trotman, Chris asks, "What could stop you from multiplying followers of Jesus?" Renaissance Church - Richmond, Texas ren-church.org #alloflifealltheearth

In this episode, Pastor Chris Kipp teaches a message entitled "Made To Multiply" from Acts 9:31 and 2 Timothy 2:2. Using the story of Dawson Trotman, Chris asks, "What could stop you from multiplying followers of Jesus?" Renaissance Church - Richmond, Texas ren-church.org #alloflifealltheearth

Susan Fletcher talks about Dawson Trotman and his big faith. Dawson Trotman: In His Own Words  https://www.christianbook.com/dawson-trotman-in-his-own-words/navigators/9781617479212/pd/479215?en=google&event=SHOP&kw=ingram-0-20%7C479215&p=1179710&utm_source=google&dv=m&gclid=CjwKCAjwzt6LBhBeEiwAbPGOgRoQMg91QqOao9t9pNl9J4X6BQ8-K17hqs_i2KtmtU9FAStO6iu-ghoCne4QAvD_BwE

Website- http---www.navigators.org-What is the need of the hour- Dawson Trotman, the founder of the Navigator Ministry, shares one of his most popular messages. The need of the hour is not more money, more staff, or more buildings. It is stepping out in obedience of God by making disciples of all nations... Are you obeying this call-

Welcome to the Campus Ministry Today podcast! This summer we are jumping into a fresh series called “Summer Sessions” where we will share a mix of classic discipleship messages and inspiring conference messages and workshops that we believe will be invaluable for your ministry.

Author Elizabeth George writes, Here's a question to think about: If someone asked you to describe the quiet time you had this morning, what would you say? This is exactly the question Dawson Trotman, founder of The Navigators ministry organization, used to ask men and women applying for missions work. He once spent five days interviewing candidates for overseas missionary service. He spent a half hour with each one, asking specifically about their devotional life. Sadly, only one person out of 29 interviewed said his devotional life was a constant in his life.[1]   [1] Elizabeth George, A Woman After God's Own Heart (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1997), 30.

March 3. Dawson Trotman. Dawson was a producer. He was a California lumberyard worker.  He had started out strong, but after a brilliant high school career, Dawson's life floundered. He went from Boy Scout, student body president, and valedictorian to gambler, pool shark, and drunk. He was running bootleg liquor and consuming it—during Prohibition.  When local law-enforcement officers caught him drinking, he uttered a quick “save me” […] The post Dawson Trotman, US, Evangelist first appeared on 365 Christian Men.

Alex Nelson is the student leader for the Glasgow Navigators.About The NavigatorsThe Navigators has grown out of one man’s pursuit of God. Dawson Trotman lived in America. As he sought God, the Lord promised to build him ‘a house’. At a time when the Christian world saw no ministry beyond evangelism, he was led to invest deeply in the lives of the few in order that they could reach the many. This began in the 1930s with US Navy personnel. It grew significantly through WWII. Following the war the Navigators spread out through the world, it is now in over 100 countries world wide. The Navigators came to the UK through the Billy Graham crusades of the 1950s. Billy Graham, frustrated by the unwillingness of local Christians to help those who came forwards at his meetings, asked Dawson Trotman to develop what has since become known as “follow-up”. The Navigators therefore supported Dr Graham in all his crusades. During the Haringey crusades, Christians’ eyes were opened to the possibilities of discipleship, and asked the Navigators to minister in the UK. Initially Joyce Turner came to set up an office for materials and as she did this she also began a ministry among women. As interest developed, more Navigators came to set up ministries in communities and universities, which became the starting block for the current ministry.https://navigators.co.uk/glasgow/Presented by David Meredithwww.generation-mission.orgTitle Music and Production: Simon Kennedy

In christian families we were told to honour our father and mother. We know what our parents did, but in “The Lord's Prayer”, Jesus says “Thy will be done”, God's will. I like to start every day by memorizing a Bible. I'm thankful for the people who encouraged me to do this, so I can better understand “God's will”. There is a navigator system, from Dawson Trotman, that I follow, to memorize a new Bible verse every day, and reviewing 21 verses. It helps me focus on “Thy will be done”. “Soli Deo Gloria” were the words that Bach would write at the end of each one of his compositions. This means “Only to God be the Glory”. My favorite piece by Bach is “Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring”. This is what I will play this week.

Dawson lays out the vision and call to disciple making in this timeless lesson on investing in people lives and making an impact up close. To learn more about us, visit oubcm.com Our Masters Series is all about hearing from the masters and learning from those who have "Been there, done that."

Freue dich ein paar wertvolle Wahrheiten der persönlichen Evangelisation zu erfahren, und warum wir diesen Auftrag für wichtig nehmen sollen und dazu interviewe ich Markus Schulze, welcher ein Mitarbeiter der Stiftung Missionswerk Werner Heukelbach ist. https://heukelbach.org/ Eine Aufgabe von Markus ist es unter anderem den Gemeinden in Ihrem Auftrag der persönlichen Evangelisation zu unterstützen. Hier die Buchempfehlung von Markus Schulze: Für andere Leben von Dawson Trotman   Vergesst nicht den Podcast zu abonnieren und lasst eine 5 Sterne Bewertung da.

Freue dich ein paar wertvolle Wahrheiten der persönlichen Evangelisation zu erfahren, und warum wir diesen Auftrag für wichtig nehmen sollen und dazu interviewe ich Markus Schulze, welcher ein Mitarbeiter der Stiftung Missionswerk Werner Heukelbach ist. https://heukelbach.org/ Eine Aufgabe von Markus ist es unter anderem den Gemeinden in Ihrem Auftrag der persönlichen Evangelisation zu unterstützen. Hier die Buchempfehlung von Markus Schulze: Für andere Leben von Dawson Trotman   Vergesst nicht den Podcast zu abonnieren und lasst eine 5 Sterne Bewertung da.

In this message, Dawson Trotman shares about the Navigator's Topical Memory System, as well as the biblical importance of memorizing scripture in our lives. This message was originally found on discipleshiplibrary.com

It is tempting to focus on things or other people to make us successful. Dawson Trotman encourages us to focus completely on God and trust that he can and will provide everything we need.  This message was originally found on discipleshiplibrary.com

Today's bonus audio is a classic on disciple-making by Dawson Trotman, founder of The Navigators. This message was delivered back in 1956 but it’s just as relevant today as it was then! My own history with this audio goes back 25 years. A friend shared this message with me and it changed the course of my life. This audio is part of a free resource called the Disciple Maker's Leatherman. To get the Leatherman and other audios in this series, visit us at https://intotheharvest.org/dml Hope this message challenges and encourages you. Give it a listen and then share it with a friend! Into the Harvest Our mission is to inspire and mobilize a new generation to move the message and mission of Jesus out of the building and into the everyday places of life. Get connected with us! Website - https://intotheharvest.org Instagram - @intotheharvest Facebook - @intotheharvest The post BONUS AUDIO: Born to Reproduce appeared first on Into the Harvest

In this episode, Dawson Trotman, founder of the Navigators, explains how to reproduce ourselves as disciples into the lives of others.

Welcome back to Podcastification - on this episode I’m walking you through the step by step details of what I do to carry out MY successful podcast production workflow every single week. It doesn’t matter if you publish episodes every week, every other week, or once a month - organizationally you’ve GOT to have an effective podcast workflow to ensure two things: Quality AND Consistency What I demonstrate and describe on this episode is not the ONLY way to do this - but it’s the best way I’ve found after 5 years of podcasting. And if you scroll down, you’ll also notice that I ALSO recorded this one as a video - with the workflow mapped out on my whiteboard. The visuals help on this one - honest. If there’s one thing you get out of this episode, this is what I hope it is: Process leads to Success! [1:18] The vital importance of having a well-considered podcast workflow: consistency & quality [3:12] Write down every step of your process - one per sticky note: here’s why [4:01] Beginning the process, one step at a time Choose your topic Research and preparation GUEST EPISODES: Choosing and preparing for your guest GUEST EPISODES: Reaching out to your guest GUEST EPISODES: Your guest schedules a time GUEST EPISODES: Asking the guest to provide you some vital info GUEST EPISODES: Confirm the recording (the day of the recording) [17:41] Do you see how the workflow enables you to be professional and consistent? [21:45] Resuming the steps to your podcast workflow Create a test recording/sound check Record the main audio/conversation Record the intro and outro immediately following the recording: Here’s why Add the audio files to my Dropbox system (I describe it here) Notify the editor (or set a time to edit on your own calendar if you do your own editing) Create an optimized title and send to my VA (because the artwork step is coming) Add to Auphonic (if you don’t use Auphonic, do it now!) Writing the show notes and notify the VA Artwork/graphics are created Post the show notes and artwork to Libsyn and the website Set up social sharing GUEST EPISODES: Send promo info to guest [44:15] Why process equals success Resources Mentioned YouCanBook.me Calendly Schedule Once The list I send to guests about how to best prepare for the recording The form I use to ask my guests to confirm their participation here Google Forms Hello Sign Hubspot Ringr Zencastr Cleanfeed Skype Zapier Keyword Finder (affiliate link) Auphonic My previous episode about using Auphonic Episode: The Triple Power of Killer Show Notes Canva Libsyn - use the code “PFT” to get up to 1 ½ months off Episode: Using virtual services/assistants Procrastinate on Purpose by Rory Vaden Recur Post eClincher Meet Edgar Featured On This Episode Custom Audiograms from Podcast Fast Track Wavve - check it out! Connect with me… Carey(AT)PodcastFastTrack.com On Facebook On Twitter > click on each link > read articles without having to search for them > and begin my own bullet point outline for the episode, all in the same spot on my Trello board. Create a bullet-point outline of my thoughts As I just mentioned, the next thing I do is begin my own outline of the topic. I want to include things I’ve discovered/ learned, things I believe from my experience, and what others who are experts on the subject have to say. I want to leave no stone unturned - because it’s that kind of comprehensive quality that will get the attention of my listeners/readers AND get the attention of Google. Honestly, it does work that way. Once I’ve created my bullet-point outline, I’ll go through it slowly to ensure it makes sense from a sequential standpoint. If I need to reorder or reorganize it, I will. It’s got to make sense the moment a reader/listeners glances over it. If it doesn’t they’ll probably click off to something else. Journal/write about the topic I don’t always do this, but if I’m dealing with a complicated subject, or one that is easily confused (in my own mind, especially), I’ll add this step - I journal my thoughts and understanding about the topic. Why do I do this? Because as Dawson Trotman once said, “Thoughts disentangle themselves when they flow from lips or fingertips.” Typing/writing things out helps ME understand it. When I finally record the episode I want to be speaking about the subject matter naturally, as one who has studied and understood the topic for myself (because I have). If I shortcut this step, it will show up in the quality of my episode content - and I believe that costs listeners/fans/followers in the long run. I can’t have that. I won’t have that. :) Brainstorm/decide on guests for the episode If the topic I’m interested in would benefit from a conversation with an expert guest, I start thinking through who that guest should be. Nobody is out of the realm of possibility. My philosophy is to ask because the worst they could do is ignore my outreach or say “No.” That’s not so bad, is it? In a future point I’ll tell you how I go about reaching out to these experts. Brainstorm resources I may need for the episode Are there any special graphics, audio clips, sound effects, or other resources that would make this episode ultra special? If I can come up with good ideas, I jot them down. I’m going to do everything I can to up the value of the audio and the show notes to make them stand out - to my listeners and to Google. My philosophy on that is that if it pleases my listeners, it will likely please Google too. But be careful here - don’t overdo it. I went through a season on my podcast where I did lots of cutesy sound effects just for the sake of doing them. I thought they were fun and gave the show a unique sound. My audience told me they were annoying. (Listen to your listeners when they give you feedback). STEP #3: Give my topic, potential guest, and resource needs to my VA/Assistant If you don’t have a VA or assistant who helps you with this kind of thing, you’re making a list for yourself - and you have another set of things to do in order to publish the show as you have planned. It’s a lot of stuff, but it’s worth it to do things right. I’d rather have an episode publish late and be phenomenal than to publish on time and be so-so. I believe my audience knows the difference - and is glad when I don’t shortcut the process. So… passing these things to my VA puts a new task on her plate, which is the next step in this process - reaching out to the guest I have in mind. If I’ve decided to approach the guest through a contact or friend, I do that legwork before I pass this info to my VA. I want her to have as easy a time as possible connecting with the person I have in mind. She’ll also start collecting the resources I need, whatever they are, and place them in a predetermined Dropbox or Google Drive location. That way when I or my editor are ready to produce the episode or show notes, the resources are available. STEP #4: Reach out to the potential guest Once I’m ready for my VA to reach out - I have her do so using a template I’ve written and provided to her that she customizes to the person I have in mind, the topic I want to chat with them about, and the timeframe in which I’d like to record the episode. I thought about providing a copy of my template here but decided against it, simply because any template you create needs to be in your voice and reflect the unique characteristics of your podcast and brand. I can’t write that for you. So, spend quality time on this. It’s important. The first impression you give to potential guests is powerful for them and could make or break their willingness to be a guest on your podcast. Some items you might want to include… Names of previous guests who have been on your show A link to an outstanding show notes page to show them how you feature them A suggested timeframe for the two of you to do the recording A link to your intake/scheduling platform And even though you need to include all that - keep it short. Busy people don’t have time for long emails. Short and sweet is key. STEP #5: Guest Schedules a Time to Record and Completes Intake Form I’m being entirely optimistic here, assuming that your email request was well-received and the person you reached out to is enthusiastic about being on your show. If so, you should receive a response of some kind from them - they’ve filled out your intake form or have scheduled on your calendar to record a conversation. This isn’t really a step where you need to do something, I just include to remind you that your next action points depend on this happening first. So be patient and remember that busy people are busy. It may take them a while to respond (if they do at all). STEP #6: Confirm your recording with the guest Possibly the worst thing you could do is to receive a favorable reply from a guest and then not respond in kind. That person needs to know that you received their information and are planning on recording at the time they chose. So reply to them - some way - any way. Just let them know you got their information and are looking forward to the conversation at the particular date and time they selected. If you have a list of interview best-practices you can send their way, include that with your response. You want to help your guests be good guests. STEP #7 - Test your recording equipment The day of your recording has come. You’re ready to get a great conversation or solo recording into digital form. But you won’t be able to if your equipment/setup isn’t working properly. So test everything. You don’t want the audio coming out less than professional. It will reflect badly on you and on your guest. So take the extra time you need to ensure everything is working as expected. I’ve had instances where I had to switch my recording method simply because I couldn’t get things worked out. I’ve also had to ask guests to switch the microphone on their end to get a better sound. As you do these things, be sure to reiterate to your guests that it’s all for the sake of making them sound as great as possible. They’ll usually be OK with the hassle in that case. STEP #8: Record your main audio This one is pretty simple - just do the recording. Use the great outline you created in the prep and research stage. Enjoy the conversation with your guest. Mine the gold nuggets out of them with good questions. You’re more than halfway done at this point - I think. STEP #9: Record your intro, outro, and pre-roll elements I label this step the way I do because it’s what I have to record for my podcast production workflow. Yours will vary. But the point is this - and I can’t say it enough… well, maybe a story will help… I have clients all the time who toss their main content into Dropbox for my team the minute they are done recording it. Check. Good job. But then when it comes time for my team to put together their audio and produce it, we have no intro or outro (or other needed elements). When I talk to the client about it they say, “Yeah, I always forget to do that.” Or another, even better version goes something like this… “I wish I could do this a better way. By the time I get around to recording the intro and outro I’ve forgotten everything we talked about.” BINGO! This approach solves those problems. You don’t have to remember to record anything because it’s already recorded. You don’t have to rack your brain to remember the details of a conversation you had weeks ago, because you recorded the intro and outro fresh on the heels of that great conversation in the first place. Get it all done at one time, while it’s still fresh on your mind - and save yourself a bunch of hassle later. STEP # 10: Store the files in your designated place In my case, Dropbox is the destination for all my recorded files - and we structure the files and name them in a way that everyone one the team knows what they are looking at and what do do with what they see there. The more detailed you can be with these systems when you’re working with others, the less communication you’ll have to have week to week. Just set it up in a way that works and leave it alone. If you’re doing the editing work yourself you still need to be organized. I can’t tell you how many times at the beginning of my podcasting journey I couldn’t find the audio file I recorded. Clean up your system. A place for everything and everything in its place. STEP #11: Notify editor / do the editing Once my files land in Dropbox, my editor receives a notification that the audio is ready for him and he gets to work. If I were doing the editing myself, I’d arrange my schedule so I could do it immediately following the steps I’ve just outlined. I don’t want to have to come back to it later. I don’t want to have to remember where I left off. I want it out of my hair, scheduled, and ready to go - all in one swoop. STEP #12: Optimize the title of the episode and send to my VA This one is HUGEly important. I can’t stress it enough. In fact, I want to say it again! OPTIMIZE YOUR TITLE. If you don’t know why this is so important, you must not have heard the incredible results I got from doing so - on this episode. And what you hear in that amazing case-study doesn’t only apply to show titles - it applies to episode titles too. So I take the time to do some effective long-tail keyword research using this tool (this is my affiliate link) to make sure I’m crafting a title that people out there in Google-land are actually searching for. Then, once the title is honed in just like I want it - I pass it on to my VA. Why? Because of this… STEP #13: My VA creates my episode artwork Using Canva templates I’ve set up ahead of time, my VA drags images into the display, changes titles and episode numbers, and cranks out new artwork for every episode of my show. She does that with the title I provide to her. But she also produces social media artwork aimed at making the episode appealing to social media users. These may include quotes from the episode, the optimized title I passed her way, or even audiograms (coming to my workflow in the near future). Then she’ll schedule out the social media elements using a social media management tool of some sort (we haven’t settled on one at this point, though I have used eClincher in the past and didn’t have any trouble with it). And she makes sure to include a short link to the episode show notes page as part of the social media posts. STEP #14: Show notes are created As of right now, this is still on my plate. I write these show notes for every episode of my podcast (as of June 2018). Yes, they are long. Yes, I’ve spent half the day on this set of notes already. YES! It’s worth it. The value of exhaustive content like this will grow over time as the internet rolls on. And it will bring great value to my listeners again and again. If you want your show notes to be a certain way, it’s up to you to ensure they ARE that way. Either you have to refine your process and create a video or checklist to show someone else how to do it, or you have to write them yourself. OR - I almost forgot this one - you can outsource your podcast show notes to a team of professionals like mine. STEP #15 - My VA schedules my audio and show notes on my media host and website Nothing hard about this - just a lot of detail. And I’m responsible to make sure my VA understands the details, knows how to implement them, and is able to do it without fail. I recommend checklists. HIGHLY. You can’t expect quality or consistency from anyone if you don’t enable them to know what that level of quality looks like. This goes double or triple for the people working for you. So figure out the steps involved in your posting process - write it down - tweak it - make sure nothing is missing. Then pass it on to someone else. Nathan and I talked about that on this episode. STEP 16: Send promo materials to my guest (if applicable) This is another task my VA has been instructed to do - and she only does it if my episode included a guest - OR if I mentioned someone in the episode that I’d like to let know about the mention. She simply sends another form letter, modified to the person and episode, that provides resources to my guest for sharing the episode with their network. I want to borrow from my guest’s network to get momentum for the episode. The more it is seen in their network, the more likelihood there is that I’ll gain some new subscribers to my podcast. It’s that simple. Wrap-UP Going step by step through my podcast production workflow like this is a bit exhausting, isn’t it? My brain is tired - as are my hands (from the typing). But it’s an example of how a bit of hard work now will reap huge rewards in the future that are ongoing and compounding over time. I’d love to hear your best practices when it comes to your podcast workflow. Please let me know what YOU do to make your workflow smooth and simple.

Dawson Trotman is the founder of the Navigator's ministry, which has impacted millions of lives for Christ. In this message, he emphasizes the absolute importance of making disciples, as the central goal of the Christian faith.  This message was originally found on discipleshiplibrary.com

"The earlier in your spiritual journey, the more you'll need a spiritual guide." To wrap up our January series, Doug talks Ethiopian eunuch, Dawson Trotman, and six practical steps to following up with your friends after they come to church. For more information, contact us via social media or find us online: @firstorlandocollege firstorlando.com/college

Dave Johnson has served with The Navigators for decades and has influenced countless men and women in Northeast Ohio to know Christ and make Him known. He's one of my spiritual heroes and I'm blessed to have him as a mentor and friend. In this episode, Dave shares some personal experiences he had with Dawson Trotman, the founder of The Navigators.

Men's Conference 2017 Build 2017 - Deliberate Discipling 24/03/17 - Camp Toukley Session 1 The Definition of Discipleship (49.26)Daryl Bay Key Verses: Matthew 28:18-20, 1 Thessalonians 2:7-13, 2 Timothy 2:1-7 Introduction What is your little white ball? Answer: Matthew 28:18-20 Our marching orders are clear (“make disciples” -> go, baptise, teach) Our mission is focused on Jesus (“All authority on heaven and earth has been given to me…I will be with you always…”) Three Basic Elements of Discipleship 1. Truth (v2)2 Timothy 3:16-17 Luke 8:4-21 John 8:31-32 2 Corinthians 4:1-6 2. Relationship (v2) Philippians 4:9 2 Timothy 3:10-11 1 Thessalonians 2:8-10 Philippians 3:17: “Join with others in following my example and take special note of those who live according to the pattern we gave to you.” 3. Multiplication (v2) Don’t just learn for yourself, learn for others There is nothing better that you can do with your life than to invest it in making disciples of Jesus Christ “One of the first verses of Scripture that Dawson Trotman, founder of the Navigators, encouraged me to memorise was: “And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. “ (2 Timothy 2:2 KJV) This is like a mathematical formula for spreading the gospel and enlarging the church. Paul taught Timothy; Timothy shared what he knew with faithful men; these faithful men would then teach others also. And so the process goes on and on. If every believer followed this pattern, the church could reach the entire world in one generation! Mass crusades, in which I believe and to which I have committed my life will never finish the Great Commission; but a one-to-one ministry will.” (Billy Graham) Conference Handbook here

Size Doesn’t Matter; Impact Does When you think about thought leaders such as Martin Luther King Jr., Gandhi, or even Oprah, it’s tempting to conclude that YOU couldn’t make very much of an impact in the world like they have. After all, they are special. They are “big”. I couldn't possibly do what they have done! And while you may not be Mother Theresa or the Dali Lama, you are NEVER too “small” to make a real difference in the world. Because the truth is, you don’t need to be famous or lead an historic movement to have an impact. You just need to do what needs doing in your corner of the world. Too often, we talk ourselves out of taking a stand or making a contribution because we tell ourselves it won’t matter, or that no one will notice. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, ordinary people around the world make the GREATEST impact in the lives of others. You can’t put a price on teaching a child to be kind and empathetic. Or spending time with an elderly person who has no family. Or feeding a single mom and her children who have fallen on hard times. Think of someone you know who makes a real difference in your life. Are they famous? Probably not. When you think of ways you can make an impact, you don’t need to be big, world-famous, or change the course of history. You just have to believe in the value, significance and influence you have on others. And then go out and share it. Do you want to impress or impact people? Making an impact on people takes time and effort to build and maintain a closer relationship. Impressing followers can be done with little or no relationship. All we need is the will to be involved and to leave a memorable impression on followers. It can be done at a distance – a concert, a convention, a conference, heck you can impress on YouTube or Facebook, even a tweet. Influencing followers can be done with some relationship. Influence requires the will of the follower to be involved. The follower must want to be influenced by the leader and this usually involves a connection between leader and follower. Impacting followers can only be done through an intimate relationship. Both the wills of the leader and follower need to be involved. They agree to accountability and growth usually “up-close and personal”. It is time to shift paradigms. Especially for our younger future leaders. They don’t want a “sage on the stage”, they want a “guide on the side”. As leaders who desire to impact others we need to follow Dawson Trotman’s axiom, “More time with less people equals greater impact for everyone.” To truly impact people, leaders need to coach and mentor others effectively for organisational and individual results. My challenge to you is to become a true leader to the people you serve.

Are you reproducing spiritually? Jesus commanded his disciples to share the truth of God’s word and disciple others. The founder to the Navigator ministry challenges all believers to live out your calling in life.

Is it possible for us to live for Christ every day, to empty ourselves by serving and reaching out to others on a daily basis? Because we have the power in us, as new creations in Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, I do believe it is possible to live as if it is Christmas 365 days a year. Recently, while I was reading a little booklet by Dawson Trotman entitled Born to Reproduce, I gleaned the simple idea that it's not only what you know, but how you live your life that is important. In other words, we can be a Christian for as little as one day and still impact our world for Christ. If we follow Christ's example and give of ourselves for the good of others, we will impact our worlds. As Christians, we should reflect what we know about Jesus in our lives like a mirror reflects light. If we do this, we can experience Christmas everyday, Christmas 365. Have a great New Year and let Christ shine through you this year! Greg Moore Pastor of Small Groups

Is it possible for us to live for Christ every day, to empty ourselves by serving and reaching out to others on a daily basis? Because we have the power in us, as new creations in Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, I do believe it is possible to live as if it is Christmas 365 days a year. Recently, while I was reading a little booklet by Dawson Trotman entitled Born to Reproduce, I gleaned the simple idea that it’s not only what you know, but how you live your life that is important. In other words, we can be a Christian for as little as one day and still impact our world for Christ. If we follow Christ’s example and give of ourselves for the good of others, we will impact our worlds. As Christians, we should reflect what we know about Jesus in our lives like a mirror reflects light. If we do this, we can experience Christmas everyday, Christmas 365. Have a great New Year and let Christ shine through you this year! Greg Moore Pastor of Small Groups

Is it possible for us to live for Christ every day, to empty ourselves by serving and reaching out to others on a daily basis? Because we have the power in us, as new creations in Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, I do believe it is possible to live as if it is Christmas 365 days a year. Recently, while I was reading a little booklet by Dawson Trotman entitled Born to Reproduce, I gleaned the simple idea that it’s not only what you know, but how you live your life that is important. In other words, we can be a Christian for as little as one day and still impact our world for Christ. If we follow Christ’s example and give of ourselves for the good of others, we will impact our worlds. As Christians, we should reflect what we know about Jesus in our lives like a mirror reflects light. If we do this, we can experience Christmas everyday, Christmas 365. Have a great New Year and let Christ shine through you this year! Greg Moore Pastor of Small Groups

Is it possible for us to live for Christ every day, to empty ourselves by serving and reaching out to others on a daily basis? Because we have the power in us, as new creations in Christ filled with the Holy Spirit, I do believe it is possible to live as if it is Christmas 365 days a year. Recently, while I was reading a little booklet by Dawson Trotman entitled Born to Reproduce, I gleaned the simple idea that it's not only what you know, but how you live your life that is important. In other words, we can be a Christian for as little as one day and still impact our world for Christ. If we follow Christ's example and give of ourselves for the good of others, we will impact our worlds. As Christians, we should reflect what we know about Jesus in our lives like a mirror reflects light. If we do this, we can experience Christmas everyday, Christmas 365. Have a great New Year and let Christ shine through you this year! Greg Moore Pastor of Small Groups