Podcast appearances and mentions of scott mcknight

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2024 44:44

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What's worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she's learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we'll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God's narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG JULIE ROYS 00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way. JULIE ROYS 00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others. JULIE ROYS 01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. JULIE ROYS 01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me. DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here. JULIE ROYS 03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix. DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too. JULIE ROYS 03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is? DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems, JULIE ROYS 04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing? DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed. JULIE ROYS 05:45 So what would you say fruit is? DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd. JULIE ROYS 06:10 And yet, so often it is true when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right? DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ. JULIE ROYS 06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question? DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue. JULIE ROYS 08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction. DIANE LANGBERG 09:09 The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd, the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him. JULIE ROYS 10:38 Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better? DIANE LANGBERG 11:19 I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit. JULIE ROYS 12:31 Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused. DIANE LANGBERG 13:40 Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either. JULIE ROYS 13:46 And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing. DIANE LANGBERG 14:29 Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it. JULIE ROYS 14:53 Blame it on the Lord. DIANE LANGBERG 14:54 Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable. JULIE ROYS 15:47 Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody? DIANE LANGBERG 16:29 It’s a great cover up on their side. JULIE ROYS 16:33 And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor in court to say that. DIANE LANGBERG 16:40 If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do. JULIE ROYS 17:06 and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it. DIANE LANGBERG 17:51 Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots. DIANE LANGBERG 19:20 When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does – rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run. JULIE ROYS 20:32 So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them? DIANE LANGBERG 21:36 Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth. JULIE ROYS 22:35 I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either. DIANE LANGBERG 22:37 Oh I know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were. JULIE ROYS 22:51 It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that. DIANE LANGBERG 23:04 Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever. DIANE LANGBERG 23:43 It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do. JULIE ROYS 24:16 I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned, but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. , DIANE LANGBERG 25:09 Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God. JULIE ROYS 25:23 It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal. DIANE LANGBERG 25:28 Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run . JULIE ROYS 25:56 Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent. JULIE ROYS 26:19 When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed? DIANE LANGBERG 26:51 The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding. JULIE ROYS 28:37 And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does to protect their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe. DIANE LANGBERG 29:40 Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever. JULIE ROYS 30:34 Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and how it exists and how it works. DIANE LANGBERG 31:54 Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that, the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer. JULIE ROYS 32:42 Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these. DIANE LANGBERG 32:47 Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money. JULIE ROYS 32:51 It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and to bring the big crowds, or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism. DIANE LANGBERG 33:21 Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period . JULIE ROYS 33:30 And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like. DIANE LANGBERG 33:46 He certainly deserved it, right? JULIE ROYS 33:50 And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow. DIANE LANGBERG 34:12 Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God. JULIE ROYS 34:25 Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope? DIANE LANGBERG 34:48 Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself? JULIE ROYS 36:23 And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians. DIANE LANGBERG 38:16 Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty, JULIE ROYS 38:43 Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there? DIANE LANGBERG 39:40 Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right. JULIE ROYS 41:13 I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world and through that, we become different people. We become, I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more enjoyable companions for him. DIANE LANGBERG 41:44 Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it. JULIE ROYS 42:01 Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you. DIANE LANGBERG 42:58 Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you.. JULIE ROYS 43:19 Thank you. JULIE ROYS 43:22 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

CHRIST The Covenant-Maker

Plymouth Meeting Church

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2024

To Know Christ…the Covenant-Maker! This sermon considers the New Covenant that we have in Christ and tackles legalism via Galatians 3. Special thanks to Tim Keller, David Platt, Tony Merida, Scott McKnight, Dallas Willard, and Phylicia Masonheimer. The post CHRIST The Covenant-Maker appeared first on Plymouth Meeting Church.

jesus christ covenant galatians maker new covenant tim keller dallas willard david platt phylicia masonheimer tony merida scott mcknight to know christ

The Body of Christ Keeps the Score

Exploring Faith, Pursuing Grace

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 17, 2024 56:42

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/g3j3C25thlcMuch research has been done to address individual trauma. But what happens when trauma is collective—when an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted? In this edition of The Roys Report, Kayleigh Clark, a pastor and a pastor's kid, discusses the impact of communal suffering, which church leaders often overlook. Kayleigh, a doctoral student at Kairos University, is completing her dissertation on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. And what she's learned is ground-breaking for churches that have experienced pastoral abandonment or moral failure and are struggling to recover. As was explained in the popular book, The Body Keeps the Score, unhealed trauma—if unaddressed—will manifest itself as physical and psychological ailments in our bodies. Likewise, unaddressed trauma in the Body of Christ will also manifest as corporate dysfunction and pain. But as Kayleigh explains in this eye-opening podcast, this doesn't have to be the case. Healing is available. But it requires congregants and spiritual leaders who understand trauma and don't try to charge forward before the congregation has healed. Given all the unhealed trauma in the church, this is such a relevant and important podcast. It's also one that discusses dynamics Julie knows all too well, as someone who's in a church with others who've experienced deep church hurt. She discusses her own experience in the podcast, which could be a prime case study. Guests Kayleigh Clark Kayleigh Clark is founder and director of Restor(y), which exists to journey with churches on the hope-filled path of healing and restoration. She completed a Master of Divinity at Northeastern Seminary and is currently a Th.D. Candidate at Kairos University with a focus on the interplay between psychology and theology. Kayleigh and her husband, Nate, love exploring the outdoors with their son near their home in Rochester, New York. Learn more about Restor(y) online. Show Transcript [00:00:00] Julie: Much research has been done to address individual trauma, but what happens when trauma is collective? When an entire congregation, for example, is betrayed by a pastor they trusted. According to my guest today, the impact of communal suffering is often overlooked, but the body of Christ keeps score. [00:00:22] Julie: Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and a pastor’s kid who’s well acquainted with the beauty, joy, pain, and heartache that exists within the church. Kaylee also is a doctoral student at Kairos University, and her dissertation work focuses on congregational collective trauma and paths towards healing and restoration. [00:00:50] Julie: She also is the director of ReStory, a ministry to help churches heal and embody the hope of Jesus, especially after experiencing a devastating loss or betrayal. I had the pleasure of meeting Kaylee about a week ago, and I was so excited by her insights and the work that she’s doing that I was like, you have to come on my podcast. [00:01:10] Julie: So I am thrilled that she can join me today, and I know you’re going to be blessed by this podcast. I’ll get to my interview with Kaylee in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, the Restore Conference and Mark Horta Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. [00:01:30] Julie: So, Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor, or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church. But the Restore Conference, this February 7th and 8th in Phoenix, Arizona, is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary DeMuth and Dr. [00:01:50] Julie: David Pooler An expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Toe, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly, and more. For more information, just go to Restore2025. com. That’s Restore2025. com. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. [00:02:17] Julie: Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to buyacar123. com. [00:02:37] Julie: Well, again, joining me today is Kaylee Clark, a pastor and doctoral student who’s studying congregational collective trauma and the paths to healing and restoration. She’s also the founder of Restoree and she’s a wife and mother of a beautiful baby boy. So Kaylee, welcome. It’s just such a pleasure to have you. [00:02:56] Kayleigh: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It’s an honor and a pleasure to be with you today. [00:03:00] Julie: Well, I am just thrilled to have you on our podcast and I mentioned this in the open, but We talked last week and I was just like, Oh my word, everything that you’re doing, your work is so important. And it’s so where I’m living right now. [00:03:15] Julie: And I know a lot of our listeners are living as well. And so I’m thrilled about it. But as you mentioned, your work is, is unique. We’re going to get into that, but I am just curious, this whole idea, collective trauma, you know, ministering. To the church. How did you get interested in this work? [00:03:33] Kayleigh: Sure. Um, so I am fourth generation clergy. [00:03:37] Kayleigh: So great grandpa, grandpa, my dad, and then me. So are all pastors. Uh, and so I’ve just always known the church, uh, pastors have also been kind of my second family. I’ve always felt at home amongst the church and amongst pastors. Um, but when you grow up in the parsonage and other PKs will know this, uh, you are not hidden from. [00:03:58] Kayleigh: The difficult portions of church and the really hard components of church. And so then when you add on to that, becoming a pastor myself, you know, my eyes continued to be open, uh, to some of the ways that church can be a harmful place as much of it as it is a healing place. And I began to kind of ask the question, well, well, why, um, what is going on here? [00:04:21] Kayleigh: Um, particularly because when I served and we’ll get into more of this, I think, but when I was serving in my first lead pastor, it’s. So I’m a really young, I was like 27 when they, or 28 when they entrusted me when I first lead pastorate, which is kind of wild. And so they kind of threw me in and what they do with most young pastors is they kind of throw us into these dying churches. [00:04:44] Kayleigh: And so, right, it’s a small. Church with, you know, it’s dying, it’s dwindled in numbers. And so this is my first kind of lead pastorate. And, you know, I read all the books, I’m a learner, I’m a reader. I, you know, I know how to do all the things. And so I’m reading all of the books on how to revitalize a church and raise a church up from it and all those things and nothing is working. [00:05:06] Kayleigh: Um, and it started to kind of really raise my attention to, well, maybe there’s something else going on here. Um, And, and maybe we’ve been asking the wrong questions when we’ve been approaching the church. Uh, and so, uh, again, I’m a learner, so I was like, well, I’m just going to go back to school. If that was the only way I knew how to figure this out. [00:05:25] Kayleigh: So I landed in a THD program that focused on combining the studies of trauma theory with theology. Um, and my undergraduate degree is in psychology, so it felt kind of like a merging of my two worlds. Um, and it was there that I encountered collective trauma and. Really in an interesting way, studying, um, more like childhood development trauma. [00:05:46] Kayleigh: But anytime I looked at it, all I could see was the church, um, and seeing the ways in which there might be a bigger picture. There might be a bigger story going on here. And maybe there’s some collective congregational trauma underneath the, these dying, uh, declining churches that we just aren’t aware of. [00:06:04] Julie: So, so good. And this is the thing that, that just stuns me. When I, I, I do an investigation and the top pastor gets fired, sometimes all the elders step down, but the church, it’s, it’s unbelievably rare for one of those churches to thrive afterwards. And I, and I think so much of it is they think, Oh, we got rid of the bad apple. [00:06:29] Julie: And they have no concept of how that toxicity, one, you know, the toxic, often bullying way of relating and everything was, was taught and learned and trained throughout. But then there is that trauma and, and I just, I think of Willow Creek Community Church, I went to their, it was like a midweek service where they were going to deal with, Supposedly, the women who had been sexually harassed and abused by Bill Heibel’s, the previous pastor, and they didn’t even name it. [00:07:08] Julie: They didn’t name what had happened. They didn’t go into what had happened. They didn’t apologize to the women. The women became like this amorphous something out there, the women, you know? Um, and, and then they talked about, they had a repentance time, like we’re supposed to repent for his sins. It was the most bizarre, unhealing thing I had ever seen. [00:07:27] Julie: And I couldn’t imagine how after something that dysfunctional, a church could go, okay, we’re back, you know, reach the lost, you know, seeker sensitive church. It was just bizarre. Um, so, so much of your work is, is resonating with me. And again, We’ve seen a lot in and it’s really important is dealing with individual trauma and which is super important work. [00:07:53] Julie: Um, and my last podcast with Chuck DeGroat, we talked a lot about that. We talk a lot about that on a lot of podcasts, but we often don’t address again, what’s this collective trauma that, that, you know, that it actually has a social aspect. So talk about why is it important that we begin addressing collective trauma and not just individual trauma, though, you know, obviously we each need to heal as individuals, but collectively as well. [00:08:24] Kayleigh: Yeah. So collective trauma is a newer field, even in psychological studies. So it’s, Not as old as individual trauma studies, and it actually became more popular through the work of Kai Erikson, who’s a sociologist. He’s not even a psychologist, but he studied collective trauma in kind of what he refers to as unnatural disasters. [00:08:43] Kayleigh: And so these disasters that are experienced by communities that have a human, like, blame component. So it was due to somebody’s negligence due to somebody’s poor leadership due to somebody’s abuse, and it’s on a community. And so Kai Erickson notes the, the social, he calls it the social dimension of trauma or collective trauma. [00:09:03] Kayleigh: And what he, he details there is that collective trauma is anything that disrupts and ruptures the, uh, relationships within a community. Distorting and taking apart their, uh, he calls it communality instead of community, but it’s their sense of, like, neighborliness. It’s their sense of being together. It’s their, Their shared identity and their, their shared memories are all now distorted. [00:09:26] Kayleigh: And so I think when we’re speaking specifically about the church, and when we’re looking at religious trauma and congregational trauma, we need to remember that the church is first and foremost, a community. And so sometimes I think that’s missed in our kind of American individualism. You know, a lot of people kind of view spirituality as this individualistic thing, but the church is a community. [00:09:48] Kayleigh: And so when we come together as the body of Christ, you know, when wounding happens, when trauma comes, it breaks down the relationships within that congregation, which really. is what makes it a church. The relationships are what make that a church. And so when trauma comes in and disrupts those and starts causing the divisions and the distrust and the he said, she said, and the choosing of sides and the church splits and all of these things have these ripple effects on the community. [00:10:19] Kayleigh: Um, and they really are, are traumatizing. And so what happens is that if we don’t deal, if we’re only dealing with the individual trauma, In part, that’s usually dealing with people who have left the church, right? And so usually the people who are seeking individual healing from their religious trauma, who are able to name that, who are able to say, I went through this, have often stepped outside of the church. [00:10:42] Kayleigh: Sometimes just for a season, which is completely understandable. They need that time away. They need time to heal. They’re, they don’t, feel safe. But what we’re missing when we neglect the social dimension of religious trauma are often the people who stay are these congregations who can’t name it yet, who can’t articulate that what they’ve gone through is religious trauma, who who maybe are still trying to figure out what that means. [00:11:07] Kayleigh: Often it means that we’re missing, um, you know, these, these the church that I served in, you know, isn’t one of these big name churches that’s going to get, you know, newscasted about. And they can’t necessarily name what happened to them as religious trauma because nobody’s given them the language for it. [00:11:25] Kayleigh: And so we’ve often missed these, these declining churches. We’ve missed because we haven’t remembered that Trauma is communal that trauma is relational. And so we need to, yes, provide as much care and as much resourcing as we can for the healing of individuals, because you can’t heal the community if the individuals don’t know. [00:11:44] Kayleigh: But we really need to remember that the community as a whole. impacted, and that especially when we’re talking about the church, we want to be able to heal and restore those relationships. And to do that means we have to address the social dimensions of the religious trauma. And so [00:12:01] Julie: often the people that, that stay aren’t aware of what’s happened to them. [00:12:08] Julie: Are they not even aware they’re traumatized? [00:12:11] Kayleigh: Right, right. Yeah. [00:12:13] Julie: Yeah. You introduced this, this concept, which is great. I mean, it’s, it’s a riff off of the book, The Body Keeps the Score, which, you know, um, just an incredible book by, uh, Dr. Vander Kolk. But this idea that the body of Christ keeps the score. [00:12:33] Julie: Describe what you mean by that, that the body of Christ keeps the score when there’s this kind of trauma that it’s experiencing. [00:12:40] Kayleigh: Sure. So you kind of alluded to it earlier when you were giving an example of the removing of a toxic pastor, right? And then just the placement of a new pastor. And so often what happens in these situations where there’s spiritual abuse or, um, clergy misconduct or any of those things that’s causing this religious trauma, the answer seems to be, well, let’s just remove the. [00:13:00] Kayleigh: Problem person. And then that will solve everything. Um, well, what happens is we forget that trauma is embodied, right? And so you can remove the physical threat. Um, but if you remove the physical threat or the problem person, but this congregation still has this embodied sense of trauma in which they perceive threat now. [00:13:23] Kayleigh: So they’re reacting to their surroundings out of that traumatized position, because that’s what the collective body has learned to do. And so you see this, um, It’s a silly example, but I use it because I think people see it a lot. So you have a new pastor come in and the new pastor has a great idea, at least he or she thinks it’s a great idea. [00:13:46] Kayleigh: And it probably has to do with removing pews or changing carpet color. Okay. And so they present this, what they think is just a great harmless idea. And the response of the congregation is almost volatile and the pastor can’t figure out why. And often, unfortunately, what pastors have kind of been taught to identify is that they must just idolatry. [00:14:11] Kayleigh: They just have the past as an idol for them and they need to kill this golden cow. Right. And so it becomes this theological problem. Sure, there might be cases where that is the truth, but often I would say that there’s, um, a wonderful. So another great book on trauma. It’s more on racialized trauma, but it deals a lot with historical trauma is, um, rest my Mac mannequins book, um, my grandmother’s hands and in it, he addresses this historical trauma that is embodied and he quotes Dr. [00:14:42] Kayleigh: Noel Larson, who says, if it’s hysterical, it’s probably historical. In other words, if the reaction to the thing happening doesn’t seem to match, like it seems out of proportion, either too energized or not enough energy around it, it’s probably connected to some kind of historical trauma that hasn’t been processed. [00:15:03] Kayleigh: And so we see this a lot in churches who are having a hard time being healthy and flourishing and engaging with the community around them. And. The reason why is often because they have this unhealed trauma that nobody’s given them language for. Nobody’s pointed out, nobody’s addressed for them. Um, and so it’s just kind of lingering under the surface, unhealed, unnamed, and it’s informing how they believe, how they act. [00:15:33] Kayleigh: Um, and so this is really What I mean when I say the body of Christ keeps the score is that the body of Christ has embodied this trauma and it’s coming out in their behaviors, in their actions, in their values, and our pastors are not equipped to address it from a trauma informed perspective. They’ve only been given tools to address it from maybe a theological position, or this kind of revitalization remissioning perspective. [00:16:02] Kayleigh: That often doesn’t work. [00:16:04] Julie: There’s so many things I’m thinking as as you’re talking. I mean one. to come in and do something. And then because people react to, I mean, basically that’s shaming them. It’s guilting them to say, Oh, you have an idol or what’s wrong with you that you can’t get on board. And the truth is they don’t know what’s wrong with them. [00:16:23] Julie: They, they don’t. And, and they’re hurt. And all they know is you just, they’re hurt and now you’ve hurt them. So now they don’t trust you. So way to go. Um, but I’m thinking maybe because we brought this up and I don’t mean to beat up on, on Willow Creek, but I’m thinking about. When the new pastor came in, and I don’t think he’s a bad guy, um, you know, they, they were bleeding money. [00:16:45] Julie: Obviously they, they did not have the resources they did before. So one of the first things they did was they centralized, which meant the campus pastors weren’t going to be preaching anymore. They were going to be pumping in video sermons. Here’s the pastor that people trusted on these campuses. Now, that person’s not going to be preaching, which then of course, all of them left. [00:17:06] Julie: They ended up leaving and the trauma you’d now it’s trauma upon trauma. And it just seems like, especially in so many of these churches, you bring somebody in and they want to move somewhere like, right. They want a thriving church. What they don’t want to do is be at a church and sit in your pain. And yet. [00:17:27] Julie: Unless that’s done, I mean, can these churches, I mean, can they move forward? I mean, what’s going to happen if you come in and you don’t? slow down and say, these people are hurting and I need to, I need to be a shepherd. Then that’s the other thing. It’s so many of these mega churches, and I know this isn’t unique to mega churches that this happens, but I, it’s the world in which I report so often is that these mega churches are very mission vision, five year plan oriented and what they’re not capable of doing. [00:17:59] Julie: I think so many of these, you know, and they always bring in the, the pastor. That’s a good orator, maybe not a shepherd at all. In fact, some of these guys even say, I’m not a shepherd, which that’s another, yeah, I mean, but, but to actually, they need a shepherd at that point. Right. I mean, these, these people need it. [00:18:20] Julie: So, I mean, again, what, what do they need to do? And what happens if they don’t do some of these things? [00:18:28] Kayleigh: So the thing that I have really been drawn to, especially as I study Jesus, and I look at what it means to be trauma informed in the pastorate. So I, I do believe that God is still working through pastors. [00:18:39] Kayleigh: Um, in fact, there’s a really beautiful section of scripture in Jeremiah 23, where God is addressing abusive shepherds and God’s response is, I will raise up new shepherds. So God still wants to work through shepherds. There is still a place for a pastor. The problem is, is I don’t think we’ve taught pastors how to lead out of a posture of compassionate curiosity. [00:19:03] Kayleigh: And so if you follow Jesus and you look at the way that Jesus interacts with hurting people, it is out of this beautiful, humble posture of compassionate curiosity. And so I was always struck by like, he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? And it always seemed like a. That’s a strange question. [00:19:20] Kayleigh: Like, he’s blind, Jesus. What do you think he and often it’s preached on, like, well, we need to be able to tell God what we want. And that’s maybe some of it. But I think it’s also the truth that God knows that it can be re traumatizing to somebody to tell them what they need and what they want. Right? So what we learned when we studied trauma is that it’s not. [00:19:40] Kayleigh: So especially when we’re talking trauma caused by abuse is that abuse is so connected to control. And so what has often happened to these victims of religious abuse of spiritual abuse is that they have had control taken from them entirely. And so when a new pastor comes in and tells them, this is what you need to get healthy again, and never takes the time to approach them from this. [00:20:02] Kayleigh: posture of compassionate curiosity, they can end up re traumatizing them. Um, but our pastors aren’t trained to ask these questions. And so, so often if you read, you know, and they’re well meaning books, you know, they’re, they’re trying to get to what’s going on in the heart of the church. They’re trying to get back to church health, but so many of the books around that have to deal with. [00:20:23] Kayleigh: Asking the church, what are you doing or what are you not doing? And trauma theory teaches us to ask a different question. And that question is what happened to you? And I think if pastors were trained to go into churches and ask the question, what happened to you and just sit with a church and a hold the church and, and listen to the stories of the church, they, they might discover that these people have never been given space to even think about it that way. [00:20:52] Kayleigh: You know, where they’ve just, they’ve had abusive leaders who have just been removed or they’ve had manipulative leaders who have just been removed and they’ve just been given a new pastor and a new pastor and nobody’s given them the space. To articulate what that’s done to them, um, as individuals and as a congregation. [00:21:09] Kayleigh: And so if we can learn to, to follow Jesus in just his curiosity, and he asks the blind man, what do you want me to do for you? He, he says, who touched me when the woman reaches out and touches him. And that’s not a, it’s not a question of condemnation. That’s a question of permission giving. He knows that this woman needs more than physical healing. [00:21:28] Kayleigh: She needs relational healing. She needs to tell her story. And by pausing and saying, who touched me? He provides a space for her to share her story that she’s never been able to share with anyone before. And I think if we were to follow that Jesus, as pastors and as leaders, we would begin to love the Bride of Christ in such a way that would lead to her healing, instead of feeling the need to just rush her through some five year plan to what we think is healing and wholeness, and what actually may not be what they would say is what they need. [00:22:02] Julie: So many things you’re saying are resonating with me. And part of that’s because, uh, like I said, we’re living this. Um, I, I told you last week when we talked that our, our house church was going on a retreat, first retreat we’ve ever had. We’ve been together a little over, well, for me, I came in about two years ago and I think they had been meeting maybe eight or nine months before then. [00:22:29] Julie: Some of the people in our group, Um, don’t come out of trauma. Um, you know, one of our, one of the couples in our church, uh, they’re like young life leaders, really just delightful, delightful, delightful people, but they haven’t lived the religious trauma. One couple is, they’re from the mission field and they had a great missions experience. [00:22:55] Julie: The only trauma they might be experiencing is coming home to the U. S. The truth is they love the mission field, right? Um, and then. The remainder of us come from two, two churches, um, that, that had some sexual abuse that was really, you know, mishandled and the trust with the leaders was, was broken in really grievous ways. [00:23:19] Julie: Um, and then there’s me on top of having that, um, living in this space where, I mean, I just report on this all the time. And so, but one of the beautiful things that happened in this, in this group is that it did have leaders when we came into it and it triggered us. Like, you know, and for us it was like, oh, here’s the inside group and the outside group. [00:23:47] Julie: Like, we’re used to the ins and the outs, right? And, and we’re used to the inside group having power and control, and the rest of us just kind of go along with it. And, and we’re, we’re a tiny little group. Like we’re 20 some people, right? But, but it’s just, and, and we’re wonderful people. Wonderful people. [00:24:02] Julie: And yet we still like, it was like, mm. And um, and so. The beautiful thing is that those leaders recognize, like they didn’t fully understand it, but they said, you know, I think we need to just step down and just not have leaders. And I didn’t even realize till we went on this retreat what an act of service and of love that was for them to just say, were laying down any, any agendas we might’ve had, any even mission or vision that we might’ve had. [00:24:35] Julie: And for one of, you know, one of the guys, it was really hard for him cause he’s just like, Mr. Mr. Energy and initiative. And, and he was like, I better not take initiative because like, it’s, it’s not going to be good for these folks. Um, and on the retreat. So then, I mean, it was, it was really a Holy Spirit. [00:24:54] Julie: experience, I think for all of us, because there definitely was a camp that was like, okay, we’ve had this kind of healing time, but can, can we move forward a little bit? Like, can we, can we have some intentionality? And then there were part of us that were just like, oh my word, if we, if we, if we have leaders, why do we need leaders? [00:25:12] Julie: We’re 20 something people. Like we can just decide everything ourselves. And, and there really was somewhat of an impasse, but it’s interesting. The things that you said for me, And it was funny at one point. They’re like, can’t you just trust? And, you know, kind of like, what, what are you guys afraid of? You know? [00:25:29] Julie: And the first thing that came out of my mouth was control control. Like we’re afraid of control, um, or I’m afraid of control. Um, but what was so, so. Huge for me and I think was one of those again, Holy Spirit moments was when, you know, I was trying to like make a point about power dynamics, like you don’t realize power and like we have to be aware of how power is stewarded in a group like this because everybody has power. [00:25:59] Julie: If you don’t realize as a communicator the power that you have, like I’m aware now that because I can, I can form thoughts pretty quickly. That I can have a lot of influence in a group. I’m aware of that. And so, you know, there was even like a part where I was leading and then I was like, I can’t lead this next thing. [00:26:17] Julie: I’ve been leading too much, you know, and then we, and then we gave, we, somebody had a marker and we gave the marker to, to, um, one of the guys in our group who’s fantastic guy. And, um, And at one point, so, so anyway, I was talking about power and, and one of the guys was like, well, I don’t, I don’t really see power. [00:26:35] Julie: I don’t need. And I’m like, you have it, whether you realize it and you have it. And what was huge is that one of the other guys that sort of a leader was a leader was able to say what she’s talking about is real. Everybody has power. This is really important. And he was quite frankly, somebody with a lot of power in that group because he has a lot of trust, used to be a pastor. [00:26:57] Julie: Um, and for him to acknowledge that for the rest of us was huge. And then this, this other guy, I mean, he said at one point, Oh, well, you know, so and so’s holding the marker right now and he has power, doesn’t he? And I was like, yes, you’re getting it. That’s it. That’s it. Thank you. Because he’s like, you just reframed what we said and I wouldn’t have reframed it that way. [00:27:22] Julie: Like I wouldn’t. And I’m like, yes, exactly. It’s like, and it was like, it was like the light bulbs were going on and people were starting to get it. Um, and then another key, key moment was when one of the women who, you know, wasn’t, you know, from our church where we experienced stuff, who said, can you, can you tell me how that, how that felt for you when we used to have leaders? [00:27:46] Julie: And then for people to be able to express that. And people listened and it was like, and I was able to hear from this guy who felt like he was, he had a straight jacket, you know, because he, he like wants to use his, his initiative. Like he, he. You know, and God’s given that to him. It’s a good thing, you know. [00:28:07] Julie: And all I can say is it was just an incredible experience, an incredible moment, but it would not have happened if, and now I’m going to get kind of, it wouldn’t have happened if people cared more about the mission than the people. And they didn’t realize the people are the mission. This is Jesus work. He doesn’t care about your five year plan. [00:28:41] Julie: He doesn’t care about your ego and the big, you know, plans that you have and things you can do. What he cares is whether you’ll lay your life down for the sheep. That’s what shepherds do. And what I saw in, in our group was the willingness to, for people that have shepherding gifts to lay down their, you know, not literally their lives, but in a way their lives, their, their dreams, their hopes or visions, everything to love another and how that created so much love and trust, you know, in our group. [00:29:22] Julie: And we’re still like trying to figure this out, but yeah, it was, it was hugely, it just so, so important. But I thought how many churches are willing to do that, are willing to, to sit in the pain, are willing to listen. And I’m, I’m curious as you go in now, there’s so much of your work has become with ReStory is, is education and going into these churches. [00:29:52] Julie: You know, normally when this happens, And you told me there’s a, there’s a name for pastors that come in. It’s the afterpastor. Afterpastor. [00:30:00] Kayleigh: Yes. The afterpastor. [00:30:02] Julie: How many times does the afterpastor get it? And does he do that? [00:30:07] Kayleigh: So the problem is, and I can tell you, cause I have an MDiv. I went, I did all the seminary. [00:30:11] Kayleigh: I’m ordained. We don’t get trained in that. Um, so, and there is, um, like you said, so you use this guy as an example who has the clear. Initiative gifts. So they’re what would be called kind of the Apostle, um, evangelist gifts in like the pastoral gift assessment kind of deal. You’ve got the Apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. [00:30:34] Kayleigh: And right now there’s a lot of weight kind of being thrown behind the Apostle evangelist as kind of the charismatic leader who can set the vision. And so most of the books on pastoral You know, church health and church are written kind of geared and directed that way. Um, so we’re really missing the fact that when we’re talking about a traumatized church, what you really need is a prophet shepherd. [00:30:57] Kayleigh: Um, you need somebody who can come in and shepherd the people and care for them well, but also the prophet. The role of the prophet is often to help people make meaning of their suffering. So if you read closely, Jeremiah and Ezekiel, particularly who are two prophets speaking to people in exile, what they’re really doing is helping people make meaning of that suffering. [00:31:17] Kayleigh: They’re helping people tell their story. They’re, they’re lamenting, they’re crying with them. They’re, they’re asking the hard questions. Um, and they’re able to kind of see between the lines. So prophet, Pastors who have kind of that prophetic gifting are able to see below. They’re able to kind of slow down and hear the actual story beyond the behaviors, right? [00:31:35] Kayleigh: So the behaviors aren’t telling the whole story, but we need eyes to see that. And so the problem, I would say, is that a lot of well, meaning pastors simply aren’t taught how to do this. And so they’re not given the resources. They’re not given kind of the, um. this like Christian imagination to be able to look at a church and say, okay, what has happened here and what healings take place here? [00:31:59] Kayleigh: Um, the other problem is, you know, we need to be able to give space. So denominational leaders need to be able to be okay with a church that maybe isn’t going to grow for a few years. And I think that is whether we like it or not. And we can say all day long that we don’t judge a church’s health by its numbers. [00:32:19] Kayleigh: But at the end of the day, pastors feel this pressure to grow the church, right? To have an attendance that’s growing a budget that’s growing and. And so, and part of it is from a good place, right? We want to reach more people from Jesus, but part of it is just this like cultural pressure that defines success by numbers. [00:32:36] Kayleigh: And so can we be okay with a church that’s not going to grow for a little while? You know, can we be okay with a church that’s going to take some like intentional time to just heal? And so when you have an established church, um, which is a little bit different than a house church model, it can be. A really weird sacrifice, even for the people who are there, because often what you have is you have a segment of the church who is very eager to move forward and move on and and to grow and to move into its new future, and they can get frustrated with the rest of the church. [00:33:15] Kayleigh: That kind of seems to need more time. Um, but trauma healing is it’s not linear. And so, you know, you kind of have to constantly Judith Herman identifies like three components of trauma healing. And so it’s safety and naming and remembering and then reconnecting, but they’re not like you finish safety and then you move to this one and then you move to this one. [00:33:36] Kayleigh: Often you’re kind of going, you’re ebbing and flowing between them, right? Because you can achieve safety and then start to feel like, okay, now I can name it. And then something can trigger you and make you feel unsafe again. And so you’re now you’re back here. And so, um, um, Our churches need to realize that this healing process is going to take time, and collective trauma is complicated because you have individuals who are going to move through it. [00:33:57] Kayleigh: So you’re going to have people who are going to feel really safe, and they’re going to feel ready to name, and others who aren’t. And so you have to be able to mitigate that and navigate that. And our pastors just aren’t simply trained in this. And so what I see happening a lot is I’ll do these trainings and I’ll have somebody come up to me afterwards and go, Oh my goodness, I was an after pastor and I had no idea that was a thing. [00:34:18] Kayleigh: And they’re like, you just gave so much language to my experience. And you know, and now I understand why they seem to be attacking me. They weren’t really attacking me. They just don’t trust the office of the pastor. And I represent the office of the pastor. Okay. And so sometimes they take that personally again, it becomes like these theological issues. [00:34:38] Kayleigh: And so helping pastors understand the collective trauma and being able to really just take the time to ask those important questions and to increase not only their own margin for suffering, but to increase a congregations margin for suffering. You know, to go, it’s going to be, we can sit in this pain. [00:34:58] Kayleigh: It’s going to be uncomfortable, but it’s going to be important, you know, learning how to lament, learning how to mourn. All of these things are things that often we’re just not trained well enough in, um, as pastors. And so therefore our congregations aren’t trained in them either. You know, they don’t have margin for suffering either. [00:35:14] Kayleigh: Um, and so we need to be able to equip our pastors to do that. Um, and then equip the congregations to be able to do that as well. [00:35:20] Julie: So good. And I’m so glad you’re doing that. I will say when I first started this work, um, I was not trauma informed. I didn’t know anything about trauma really. And I didn’t even, you know, I was just a reporter reporting on corruption and then it turned into abuse in the church. [00:35:38] Julie: And I started interfacing with a lot of abuse victims. who were traumatized. And I think back, um, and, and really, I’ve said this before, but survivors have been my greatest teachers by far, like just listening to them and learning from them. But really from day one, you know, it’s loving people, right? It really, it like, if you love and if you empathize, which You know, some people think it’s a sin, um, just cannot, um, but if you do that and, and that’s what, you know, even as I’m thinking about, um, within our own, our own house church, there were people who weren’t trained, but they did instinctively the right things because they loved. [00:36:28] Julie: You know, and it just reminds me, I mean, it really does come down to, they will know you are Christians by your love. You know, how do we know love? Like Christ laid down his life for us. He is our model of love and, and somehow, you know, like you said, the, in the church today we’ve, we’ve exalted the, um, what did you say? [00:36:49] Julie: The apostle evangelist? The apostle evangelist. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, we’ve exalted that person, um, you know, And I think we’ve forgotten how to love. And too many of these pastors don’t know how to love. They just don’t know how to love. And it’s, it’s tragic. Because they’re supposed to be I mean, the old school models, they were shepherds, you know, like you said, like we need apostles, we need evangelists. [00:37:16] Julie: But usually the person who was leading the church per se, the apostles and evangelists would often end up in parachurch organizations. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong. I think the church needs all of those things. Um, and, uh, But yeah, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve left that behind, sadly. And there’s nothing sexy about being a shepherd. [00:37:37] Kayleigh: Yeah, no, I, all, all of the Apostle, I mean that, well, the whole thing is needed, um, and it’s most beautiful when we just work together, and, and when they can respond to each other. So, I mean, me and you’re an example in your house, you’re a visiting example of this. You can’t, even if just listening, you have some clear Apostle evangelists in your group, right? [00:37:54] Kayleigh: I mean, Um, right? And so you have these people wired for that, and yet they’re able to, to learn and respond to some of the people in the group who have more of those prophet shepherd tendencies. And so I think that that’s really what, and that’s loving, right? So we should go back. It’s just loving one another and learning from one another. [00:38:17] Kayleigh: And knowing when to lean into certain giftings and to learn from others giftings. This is why it’s the body of Christ. And so when a component of the body of Christ is left out, we can’t be who God’s called us to be. And so when we neglect the role of the shepherd and neglect the role of the prophet or minimize them, or see them as secondary, then we’re not going to do called us to be. [00:38:44] Kayleigh: You know, we may need all of it to come together to do what God has called us to do. God is working in this church. He’s worked all through this church. He has established it and called it, and He’s going to use it. But we need to be learning how He has built it and how He framed it. For me to love one another and not elevate one gifting above another. [00:39:07] Julie: And it’s interesting too, you mentioned the office of the pastor. Um, I know as we were discussing some of this, we have one guy who’s very, I mean, actually our entire group, and I think this is probably why we’ve been able to navigate some of this. It’s it’s a really spiritually mature group. A lot of people. [00:39:26] Julie: who have been in leadership, um, which sometimes you get a lot of leaders together and it can be, you know, but this hasn’t been that way because I think people really do love the Lord. Um, and they love each other. Um, but one of the things that was brought up, um, is Is the pastor an office or is it a role and have we made it into an office and, and what we realized in the midst of that and I, you know, I, I’m like, well, that’s really interesting. [00:39:57] Julie: I would like to study that. And I find there, there’s a curiosity when you talk compassionate curiosity, I think there’s also a curiosity in, in people who have been through this kind of trauma. There’s a curiosity in, okay, what, what did we do? that we did because everybody said that’s how we’re supposed to do it. [00:40:18] Kayleigh: Yeah. [00:40:18] Julie: Yeah. Do I really have that conviction? Could I really argue it from scripture? Is this even right? And so I find even in our group, there is a, there is a, um, there’s a curiosity and maybe this is because we’re coming through and we’re in, you know, I think a later stage of healing is that now we’re like really curious about what should we be? [00:40:44] Julie: Yes. Yes. What should we be, like, we, we want to dig into what, what is a church, what should it really be, and what, why, how could we be different? Of course, always realizing that you can have the perfect structure and still have disaster. Um, it really does come down to the character of the people and, and that, but, but yeah, there’s a real, Curiosity of, of sort of, um, digging, digging into that. [00:41:10] Julie: And, and let me just, I can ask you, and, and maybe this will be a rabbit trail, maybe we’ll edit it out. I don’t know. Um, , but, but I am curious what do, what do you think of that idea that the, the pastorate may be a role that we’ve made into an office and maybe that could be part of the problem? [00:41:27] Kayleigh: I think that’s a lot of it. [00:41:28] Kayleigh: Um, because when we turn the, the pastorate into an office, we can lose the priesthood of all believers. So that I think is often what happens is that, um, you create this pastoral role where now all of the ministry falls on to the pastor. And so instead of the pastor’s role being to equip the saints for the ministry, which is what scripture says, the scripture describes a pastor as equipping the saints for the ministry. [00:41:56] Kayleigh: Now the pastor is doing the ministry, right? There’s, there’s just all of this pressure on the pastor. And that’s, that’s where I think we start to see this. The shift from the pastor being the one who is, you know, encouraging and equipping and edifying and, you know, calling up everybody to live into their role as the body of Christ where we’ve seen. [00:42:19] Kayleigh: You know, I have a soft spot for pastors. Again, I’m like, they’re all my relatives are them. I love pastors and I know some really beautiful ones who get into ministry because that’s exactly what they want to do. And so what has often happened though, is that the, the ways of our culture have begun to inform how the church operates. [00:42:40] Kayleigh: And so we saw this, you know, when, when the church started to employ business In kind of the church growth movement. So it’s like, okay, well, who knows how to grow things? Business people know how to grow things. Okay. Well, what are they doing? Right. And so now that the pastor is like the CEO, people choose their churches based on the pastor’s sermon, right? [00:43:00] Kayleigh: Well, I like how this pastor preaches. So I’m going to go to that church. Um, so some of it is. So I would say that not all of it is pastors who have like that egotistical thing within them at the beginning. Some of it is that we know that those patterns exist. But some of these men and women are genuinely just love the Lord’s people and then get into these roles where they’re all of a sudden like, wait, I, Why, why is it about me and others, this pressure to preach better sermons and the person down the road or, you know, run the programs and do all of these things instead of equipping the people to do the work of God. [00:43:38] Kayleigh: And so I think it’s, it’s about, and right, I think it’s happened internally in our churches, but I also think there’s this outward societal pressure that has shifted the pastor from this shepherding role to the CEO office. Um, And finding the, like, middle ground, right? So again, like, we can swing the pendulum one way and not have pastors. [00:44:05] Kayleigh: Or we can swing the pendulum the other way and have pastors at the center of everything. But is there a way of finding, kind of, this middle ground where people who are fairly calm and gifted and anointed by God to do rich shepherding can do it in a way that is Zen sitting that church that is equal famous saint that is calling the body of Christ to be what it is called be. [00:44:27] Kayleigh: And I guess I’m, I’m constantly over optimistic and so I’m convinced that there’s gotta be a way , that we can get to a place where pastors can live out of their giftings and live by their callings and live out of their long dreams in such a way. That leads to the flourishing health of the church and not to its destruction. [00:44:45] Julie: Yes. And, and I think if it’s working properly, that absolutely should be there. They should be a gift to the church. Um, and, and sadly we just, we haven’t seen enough of that, but that is, that is, I think the model. Um, let’s talk specifically, and we have talked, or we might not have named it, um, but some of the results of this collective trauma. [00:45:08] Julie: in a congregation. Um, let’s, let’s name some of the things. These are ways that this can, that this can play itself out. [00:45:17] Kayleigh: Sure. So when we’re talking about congregational collective trauma, one of the main results that we’ve talked about kind of in a roundabout way is this lack of trust that can happen within the congregation. [00:45:27] Kayleigh: And this can be twofold. We can talk about the lack of trust for the leadership, but it all also can be lack of trust. Just, In the congregation itself, um, this often happens, particularly if we’re looking at clergy misconduct that maybe wasn’t as widespread. So I think this is some of what you’ve kind of talked about with Willow Creek a little bit, and I’m, I wasn’t in that situation, but I’ve seen it other places where, you know, in our system, the denominational leadership removes a pastor. [00:45:56] Kayleigh: And so what can happen in a system like that is that denominational leadership becomes aware of abuse. They act on the abuse by removing the pastor. And what you have happening is kind of this, um, Betrayal trauma or this, you know, bias against believing. And so because the idea that their clergy person who they have loved and trusted, you know, shepherd them could possibly do something that atrocious. [00:46:24] Kayleigh: That idea is too devastating for them to internalize. So it feels safer to their bodies to deny it. And so what can happen is you can have a fraction of the church. that thinks it’s, you know, all made up and that there’s no truth to it. And they began to blame the denominational leadership as the bad guys or that bad reporter that, you know, the [00:46:45] Julie: gossip monger out there. [00:46:47] Julie: It’s so bad. [00:46:48] Kayleigh: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you have this split. Now, sometimes it literally splits and people will leave. Um, but sometimes they don’t and they all stay. And so you have these fractions of people who believe different things about what happened. And so now there’s, there’s a lack of shared identity. [00:47:08] Kayleigh: So I would say one of the key components of collective trauma in a congregation is this mistrust, which is often connected to a lack of shared identity. And so they can’t really figure out who they are together. What does it mean for us to be a community to get there? Um, and so trauma begins to write their story. [00:47:27] Kayleigh: And so when we talk about the embodiment of trauma, one of the ways that that works in individuals, and this is like a mini neuroscience lesson that many of your listeners are probably aware of, because I think you have a very trauma informed audience. Audience, but, um, you know, that it, it makes us react out of those fight, flight, or freeze responses. [00:47:46] Kayleigh: And so that happens individually, right? So something triggers us and all of a sudden we’re at our cortisol is raised. We’re acting out of the, uh, you know, those flight flight places that happens communally too. So a community gets triggered by, you know, a pastor again, having what they think is just a creative idea, you know, but maybe it triggers that time that that pastor. [00:48:09] Kayleigh: Had a creative idea that was, you know, and ran with it without talking to anybody and just like wield the control and manipulated people. And now, all of a sudden, this pastor who thinks they just have this innocent, creative idea is now seen as manipulative. And what are they going to try to do behind our backs? [00:48:27] Kayleigh: And what are they going to try? And, and. What are they going to take from us? Right? And so trauma, trauma takes from people. And so now they’re living kind of out of this perpetual perceived fear, perceived threat, that something else is going to be lost. And so when you have a congregation that’s constantly operating out of, you know, this fight, flight, or freeze response. [00:48:52] Kayleigh: Collectively, I mean, how can we expect them to live out the mission that God has given them? Um, you know, they’re not, they’re not there. They’re not able to, um, they’re not able to relate to one another in a healthy way. And so we, we see a lack of kind of intimate relationships in these congregations, right? [00:49:09] Kayleigh: Because so the Deb Dana, who has helped people really understand the polyvagal theory, when we’re talking about, um, trauma talks about your, your, um, Nervous system, your autonomic nervous system is kind of being like a three rung ladder. And so in this three rung ladder, you have the top rung being your ventral bagel state, which is where you can engage with people in safe and healthy ways. [00:49:32] Kayleigh: And then you move down into kind of your sympathetic nervous system. And this is where you’re in that fight flight freeze and then dorsal bagels at the bottom. And in those two middle and bottom, you can’t build these deep relationships. And again, deep relationships are what make a church a church. And so if you have a congregation that’s stuck in these middle to bottom rungs of this ladder, they’re, they’re fight, flight, freeze, or they’re withdrawing from one another. [00:49:54] Kayleigh: You’re, you’re losing the intimacy, the vulnerability, the safety of these congregations to build those kinds of relationships. And so I would say that, that distrust, that lack of shared identity and that inability to build deeper kind of relationships are three kind of key components of what we’re seeing in congregations who are carrying this collective trauma. [00:50:16] Julie: And yet, if you work through that together, like I will say right now, I feel a great deal of affection for, for everyone. Uh, in our house tours because we went through that chaos together, but also it was, it was an opportunity to see love and people lay down their lives for each other. So to, to be able to see, I mean, you begin writing a new story instead of that old story that’s been so dominant, you know, that you have to tell, you have to work through. [00:50:50] Julie: Yeah, you do. And, and, and you have, you do. I love where you say, you know, people need to, to hear that from you. Yeah. I think that’s really, really important for people to have a safe place. But then at the same time, you can’t, you don’t want to live the rest of your life there. You don’t want that to define, define you. [00:51:09] Julie: Um, and that’s, that’s what’s beautiful though, is if you work through it together, now you, you’ve got a new story, right? You’ve got, you’ve got Dodd doing something beautiful. Um, among you and, and that’s what he does. [00:51:23] Kayleigh: That’s why we call our organization Restory. Um, it is a word used in trauma theory and in reconciliation studies to talk about what communities who have experienced a lot of violence have to do is they have to get to a place where they’re able to, it’s exactly what you’re talking about with your house churches doing is you guys have kind of come to a place where you’re able to ask the question, who do we want to be now? [00:51:45] Kayleigh: And this is this process of restorying. And so what trauma does is in many ways, for a while, it tries to write our stories. And for a while, it kind of has, because of the way that it’s embodied, we kind of, it has to, right? Like we have to process like, okay, I’m reacting to this. trigger because of this trauma that’s happened. [00:52:05] Kayleigh: So how do I work through that? You know, how do I name that? How do I begin to tell that story? And so we, and we have to tell the story, right? Because I mean, trauma theory has been the dialectic of traumas, but Judith Herman talks about is it’s very unspeakable because it’s horrific, but it has to be spoken to be healed. [00:52:22] Kayleigh: Right. And so with this trauma, it can be hard to speak initially. But it needs to be spoken to be healed. But once we’ve done that, once we begin to loosen the control that trauma has on us. Once we’re able to speak it out loud, and then we can get to a place individually and communally where we can start to ask ourselves, Who do we want to be? [00:52:45] Kayleigh: And who has God called us to be? And no, things are not going to be the way they were before the trauma happened. I think that’s the other thing that happens in churches is there’s a lot of misconception. That healing means restoring everything to the way it was before. And when that doesn’t happen, there’s this question of, well, well, did we, did we heal? [00:53:06] Kayleigh: And we have to remember that we’re never going back to the way it was before the trauma happened. But we can begin to imagine what it can look like now. Once we begin to integrate the suffering into our story, and we begin to ask those helpful questions, and we take away the trauma’s control, now we can ask, who do we want to be? [00:53:24] Kayleigh: And we can begin to write a new beautiful story that can be healing for many others. [00:53:29] Julie: A friend of mine who has been through unspeakable trauma, I love when she talks about her husband, because they went through this together, and she often says, he’s like an aged fine wine. You know, and I love that because to me, no, you’re not going back to who you were, but in many ways who you were was a little naive, little starry eyed, a little, you know, and, and once you’ve been through these sorts of things, it is kind of like an aged fine wine. [00:54:01] Julie: You have, you’re, you’re aged, but hopefully in a beautiful way. And, you know, I, I think you’re way more compassionate. Once you’ve gone through this, you’re way more able to see another person who’s traumatized and And to, you know, reach out to that person, to love that person, to care for that person. And so it’s a beautiful restoring. [00:54:26] Julie: And we could talk about this for a very long time. And we will continue this discussion at Restore, [00:54:33] Kayleigh: um, because [00:54:34] Julie: you’re going to be at the conference and that was part of our original discussions. So folks, if you wanna talk more to Kaleigh , come to Restore. I, I’m, I’m gonna fit you in somehow because , I’m gonna be there. [00:54:46] Julie: you’re gonna be there. But do you just have a wealth of, uh, I think research and insights that I think will really, really be powerful? And I’m waiting for you to write your book because it needs to be written. Um, but I’m working on it. , thank you for, for taking the time and for, um, just loving the body. [00:55:07] Julie: And in the way that you have, I appreciate it. [00:55:09] Kayleigh: Well, thank you. Because, you know, when I heard about your work and your tagline, you know, reporting the truth, but restoring the church, you know, I was just so drawn in because that’s what we need. The church is worth it. The church is beautiful and she is worth taking the time to restore. [00:55:24] Kayleigh: And I’m so thankful for the work that you’re doing to make sure that that that happens. [00:55:28] Julie: Thank you. Well, thanks so much for listening to the Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And if you’ve appreciated this podcast and our investigative journalism, would you please consider donating to the Roy’s report to support our ongoing work? [00:55:47] Julie: As I’ve often said, we don’t have advertisers or many large donors. We mainly have you. The people who care about our mission of reporting the truth and restoring the church. So if you’d like to help us out, just go to Julie Roy’s spelled R O Y S dot com slash donate. That’s Julie Roy’s dot com slash donate. [00:56:07] Julie: Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy’s report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. [00:56:29] Julie: Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

S01:E15 The Prophetic Voice of Deconstruction w/ Scot McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 17, 2024 45:52

In this conversation, Daniel Rogers and Scott McKnight discuss Scott's book 'Invisible Jesus' and his personal journey of deconstruction from a conservative Christian background. They explore the reasons behind deconstruction, the search for a more authentic faith centered on Jesus, and the implications of leaving traditional church structures. Scott emphasizes that many who deconstruct are not abandoning their faith but are seeking a deeper understanding of Jesus and a community that reflects that desire. In this conversation, Scot and Daniel explore the themes of liminality, community, and the journey of faith. They discuss the process of moving through phases of doubt and inquiry, emphasizing the importance of relationships and the freedom to question beliefs. The dialogue also touches on the concept of tolerance, the agnostic condition, and the need for churches to reorient around Jesus as the central figure of faith. Ultimately, they highlight that love is the essence of knowing God, and that true understanding comes from a place of humility and openness. Order Invisible Jesus today! https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/210137091-invisible-jesus Read Scot's Substack: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/ Subscribe to my substack for weekly posts: https://danielcrogers.substack.com Daniel's Usual Self-promotion Daniel's new book (and audio book!): How a 25-Year-Old Learned He Wasn't the Only One Going to Heaven Daniel's blog: https://danielr.net Daniel's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/DanielRogers Daniel's Church Home: https://northbroadal.com

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Dual Citizenship

NewStory Church Sunday Messages

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 29, 2024 35:09

Pastor Tom Kang explores the intersection of faith and politics in part two of the "Gospel and Politics" series. Exploring 1 Samuel 8 and dual citizenship, he discusses the often-misplaced hope in earthly governments versus divine sovereignty. With references to authors like C.S. Lewis and Scott McKnight, Tom emphasizes the balance between civic duty and spiritual allegiance. The sermon concludes with the significance of baptisms as public declarations of dual citizenship. Join for theological insights and the joyful celebration of two baptisms, highlighting the eternal over the temporal.

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Jesus Math (feat. Cindy Perkins)

The Disciple Maker's Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 7, 2024 54:53

Click here to view the Bonhoeffer Project: https://thebonhoefferproject.com/ Stay Informed - Get our newsletter: http://eepurl.com/hPViAr Today's episode will help us deepen our understanding of discipleship's profound significance, guided by Cindy Perkins's insights and practical advice, encouraging intentional living in light of God's kingdom and the transformative power of authentic Christian community. Mastering Discipleship: The Jesus Math Strategy with Cindy Perkins Join Cindy Perkins, Chief Operations Officer of the Bonhoeffer Project, as she goes into the essence of discipleship. Learn about the significance of living in the 'already not yet' space, collaborative discipleship, and the immense importance of authentic relationships in spiritual growth. Cindy shares her journey and experiences, introduces effective steps and strategies for implementing discipleship, and underscores the critical need for an intentional, culture-shaping approach within the church. Discover the exponential multiplication potential of 'Jesus Math' and understand how starting with even one dedicated disciple can eventually lead to thousands. Essential viewing for those committed to fostering deep, impactful discipleship. Check out Discipleship.org for resources on disciple-making: https://discipleship.org/resources/ Check out Discipleship.org Audio Books: https://discipleship.org/resources/ebooks/ Key Takeaways 00:00 Introduction to Cindy Perkins 10:56 The Concept of Jesus Math 18:26 Personal Journey and Discipleship 26:54 The Mandate of Titus 2: Teaching the Younger Generation 33:12 Practical Tips for Effective Discipleship 39:29 Choosing the Right Curriculum for Discipleship 41:30 Aligning Definitions of Discipleship with Church Leadership 43:37 Adapting Discipleship to Individual Needs and Contexts 49:54 Engaging in Pre-Conversion Discipleship 51:07 Discipleship in Academic Settings 53:05 Final Thoughts and Encouragement Resources on Disciple Making Culture Disciple Making Culture Visual Introduction Cultivating a Disciple-Making Culture at Your Church Disciple-Making Culture This episode from the Bonhoeffer Project goes into the profound significance and complexities of discipleship within the context of Christian faith, featuring Cindy Perkins, the Chief Operations Officer of the organization. Cindy's role in overseeing operations and women's cohorts within the Bonhoeffer Project underscores her deep involvement in fostering discipleship and organizational health. Cindy opens the episode with a compelling question for the audience: "How do we live in the 'already Not yet'?" This question serves as a thematic anchor, exploring the tension between the Christian belief in salvation already achieved and the ongoing process of transformation and anticipation of the future heavenly reality. She navigates through this theological concept, addressing the challenges many face in navigating life's ambiguities and striving to live faithfully in the present while anticipating the fullness of God's kingdom. During the episode, Cindy reflects on a recent conversation with a tech assistant at a conference, highlighting their mutual appreciation for the collaborative spirit evident at the event. She draws inspiration from the extensive works of Bill Hull on discipleship, noting how his teachings have shaped many current practices and non-profit initiatives focused on nurturing discipleship within the church. Cindy also critiques aspects of the contemporary copyright culture, contrasting it with Jesus's open and collective approach to sharing teachings about the gospel. The discussion expands to encompass broader themes within the Christian community, including unity and the dangers of divisiveness. Cindy draws from Scott McKnight's insights on endurance through suffering as depicted in 1 Peter, foreseeing potential future challenges for the church. She raises concerns about the readiness of many Christian institutions to face extreme adversities, such as potential persecution or societal marginalization, urging a deeper commitment to unity and mission amidst cultural shifts. Follow us at Discipleship.org!

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Navigating Church Bewilderment

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 19, 2024 64:47

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/XKwF1N--a00For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as lay leaders at Lakepointe Church, a megachurch in the Dallas/Fort Worth area pastored by Josh Howerton. But as concerns about Howerton grew, Patrick and Mary found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now, they're dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called “church refugees” feel. In this edition of The Roys Report (TRR), Mary DeMuth joins host Julie Roys to talk about navigating church bewilderment. This is a condition more and more Christians are experiencing today, as scandal and corruption are increasingly seeping into the church. And if you caught the previous TRR podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lakepointe Church. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How much is okay to say, and what is gossip? How do you find another church home when you're dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? These are crucial questions, which Mary—an internationally known author and a repeat speaker at our Restore Conference—admits she is wrestling with. And, as is so characteristic of Mary, she engages these questions with grace, wisdom, and a passion for truth and justice. Sadly, many churches have created a culture where it's not okay to talk about leaving a toxic church. But as Mary explains in this podcast, the church won't get better until we talk about it. Believers must begin to evaluate and process the toxicity in churches—and how we can truly become the Body of Christ. Mary has recently developed a Church Hurt Checklist to help people understand their situation and begin to process and articulate it. Download it free at marydemuth.com/churchhurt Guests Mary DeMuth Mary DeMuth is an international speaker, podcaster, and author of over 40 books, fiction and nonfiction, including The Most Misunderstood Women of the Bible and We Too: How the Church Can Respond Redemptively to the Sexual Abuse Crisis. Mary lives in Texas with her husband of 30+ years and is mom to three adult children. Learn more at MaryDeMuth.com. Show Transcript Julie Roys: For more than two decades, Patrick and Mary DeMuth faithfully served as leaders at a megachurch in the Dallas Fort Worth area. But as concerns about the current pastor grew, they found they could no longer stay in good conscience. And now they’re dealing with the anger and grief so many so-called church refugees feel. Julie Roys: Welcome to The Roy’s Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today, Mary DeMuth joins me to talk about navigating church bewilderment. Sadly, this is an issue many Christians are dealing with, as abuse, scandal, and corruption increasingly seem to be seeping into the church. Julie Roys: And if you caught our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, you heard about many of the concerning issues at Lake Point Church in the Dallas Fort Worth area, where Josh Howerton is Pastor. This is the church where Mary and Patrick served for 23 years. And if you missed our prior podcast, it was a real eye-opener and I encourage you to go back and listen to that. Julie Roys: Today’s podcast is a sequel to my podcast with Amanda, but rather than exposing the issues at Lake Point today, Mary is going to be discussing the aftermath of leaving. How do you deal with righteous anger? How do you navigate the grief? How do you know how much is okay to say? And what is gossip? And how do you find another church home when you’re dealing with feelings of betrayal and lack of trust? How do you avoid getting in the same situation again? Julie Roys: These are crucial questions and ones that I know many of you are dealing with today. And so I’m so looking forward to diving into this topic with Mary DeMuth. But first I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Talbot Seminary and Marquardt of Barrington. Julie Roys: Are you passionate about impacting the world so it reflects biblical ideals of justice? The Talbot School of Theology Doctor of Ministry program is launching a new track exploring the theological, social, and practical dimensions of biblical justice today. The program equips students with the knowledge, skills, and spiritual foundation needed to address social issues with wisdom and compassion. Julie Roys: Justice has become a key issue in our culture, but more importantly, it’s an issue that’s close to God’s heart. While it’s clear the Bible calls God’s people to pursue justice, we must be guided by His Word within that pursuit. Talbot has created this track to do just that. As part of this program, you’ll examine issues such as trafficking, race, immigration, and poverty. Julie Roys: And I’ll be teaching a session as well, focusing on the right use of power in our churches so we can protect the vulnerable, rather than harm them. So join me and a community of like-minded scholars committed to social change and ethical leadership. Apply now at TALBOT.EDU/DMIN. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and quality. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys: Again, joining me is Christian author and podcaster, Mary DeMuth, and many of Mary from her excellent books like We Too: Discussing the Sexual Abuse Crisis in the Church, and also her memoir, Thin Places. Mary also was a guest speaker at our last Restore Conference in 2022, and she’ll be speaking again at our Restore Conference in Phoenix in February in 2025. So we’re super looking forward to that. Julie Roys: But she joins me now to talk about something that’s been a very painful process for both her and Patrick, and that is leaving her church of 23 years, Lake Point Church there in the Dallas Fort Worth area. So Mary, Thank you so much for being willing to talk about what I know has been a really difficult journey. Mary DeMuth: Thanks. I certainly prayed about this conversation and what I’ve noticed in this space is that a lot of people in the middle of it. are not articulating how they’re feeling because there’s this general pressure from churches that you leave that you aren’t supposed to say anything. And I think there’s a difference between, and we’ll talk about this, I’m sure, throughout this episode, but there’s a difference between leaving quietly and running around gossiping about things. Certainly, those are two different things. Mary DeMuth: But I think what we’ve done is we’ve created a culture of silence; you can’t talk about it and literally we won’t get better unless we do talk about it. So that’s one reason why I am having this conversation today, because this is not a completed story. This is a messy story. I’m in the middle of it. Mary DeMuth: I am heartbroken, and I don’t have all the answers. But I wanted to give word to those of you that may be in that same space, that may be hurting and don’t have words to say about it. And maybe I can articulate some of those things for you. Julie Roys: And I so appreciate that. I find that people often are willing to talk about experiences years after the fact, when they’ve worked it all out and they can tie it all up in a neat bow and we can all go, Oh, that’s so nice. And here’s three ways that you can apply this message. But I knew you were going through a really painful thing that it was messy. You’ve been tweeting about it, or I should say posting on X. Julie Roys: You’ve been very open and honest with your pain. And I really appreciate that. And I love the topic. You actually gave me the title for this, about navigating church bewilderment. And I love that word bewilderment because I feel like it really captures the confusion, the real disillusionment, and then the grief and the pain. Julie Roys: All of these things bound up in one. And so we’re going to get to all that and unpack all of that. But I think to understand the depth of it for you and for Patrick, first I have to understand how deeply vested you were in this church. So talk about what this church has meant to you over more than two decades and the roles that you played in it and the community that you had. Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we’ve been there for 23 years, and we immediately started serving the moment we landed there. And we also were the first non-IMB, it was an SBC church at the time, and we were the first non-IMB missionaries to be sent out from Lake Point. Julie Roys: Define IMB for those who . Mary DeMuth: Yes. International mission board. So typically SBC churches send, they don’t really send their own missionaries. They sponsor IMB because all the money comes out of the SBC into this fund for the International Mission Board. We didn’t want to do that. We wanted to be actually supported because we believed that people who paid prayed. And so we were not IMB, but Lake Point sent us out. So we were church planters in the South of France for a couple of years. And honestly the leadership there at our church, even though we weren’t going through our church, they were the ones that helped us through a really untenable situation. And our loyalty to that church was because they put us back together when we got back from the field.. Mary DeMuth: So much pouring in and so much love. And so we have been a life group leader for 20 of the 23 years. The only three years we weren’t was when we were in France, planting a church. And then I have run a couple of conferences, interestingly enough, called the Re-story Conference, which was very similar sounding to the Restore Conference. Mary DeMuth: And I also recorded a Life Way study at Lake Point for an audience. And then my husband was an elder at the church for five years. And so we have led mission teams all over the world for Lake Point. We have definitely been in the upper levels of volunteer leadership all these years and have enjoyed a lot of conviviality and fellowship. Mary DeMuth: And I never never. I always bragged about my church. It never crossed my mind that there would be a day that I wasn’t at that church anymore. And so as of December of 2023, we are away from there and making our way into a new space. Julie Roys: And I’ve talked about this on this podcast, but we’re in a house church with, some of the folks in our house church were at their previous church for over 30 years, and the amount of pain and loss and especially when you’re, when you’re our age, early 40s. Julie Roys: That’s it. It’s early 40s. No, when you’re a little bit older and later in life and to be at this point where you’re starting over is not at all where you expected to be, and it’s pretty tough to be there. You retain some of the friendships, but everything’s changed. And it just makes for a really really difficult road that you never planned to be on. Julie Roys: Your church; and this is a lot of the reason behind you leaving, changed dramatically in the last 5 years. Stephen Stroop was your previous pastor. And in 2019, I believe Josh Howerton came in. Your husband actually was on the elder board that approved him, right? Mary DeMuth: Yes. Yes. And we’ve had to work through that as you can imagine, because that’s painful to think about. And just to expand a little bit about the why is the basic reasons why we left. There’s a lot of things. As an author, as a published author and as a speaker, the plagiarism was just grating on me and I couldn’t stomach it, but that wasn’t the main reason. Mary DeMuth: Although it’s still very problematic to me. What’s more problematic is that they don’t think it’s a big deal and they don’t see it as sin, and I just disagree. But the two things that we, the two main things that caused us to walk away, one was we were told by leadership, by upper-level leadership, that there was no place for us to serve. Mary DeMuth: And that was really, that was about a year ago. And so it took us about a year to make that decision. Like we were still serving in our life group, but there were things that God has put in us as church planters. And as me, as an author and an advocate that we have a lot that we would love to be able to offer, and to have that cut off when we feel like we’re in the prime of service right now. We weren’t asking to be paid. This is all volunteer, but we were told we couldn’t. Mary DeMuth: And then the second thing that was kind of the straw was all of the crude words and the misogynistic statements that started around 2022 almost every sermon. And as an advocate for sexual abuse victims and as an advocate for women, I could no longer be associated with that church because it just didn’t, I just couldn’t be associated with it. Mary DeMuth: I have stood in front of the Southern Baptist Convention, and I have spoken and advocated, and I have been chewed up and spit out for it. And if I’m going to a church that is marginalizing women, it does not make sense. And so no place for us to serve, big, huge problem. And then I just couldn’t be connected with a church that had that kind of reputation. Julie Roys: Those reasons are huge. and make an awful lot of sense. The plagiarism as you said, the crude remarks, the misogynistic remarks. And for a lot of folks, if you’re like, what are they talking about? I do encourage you to go back and listen to our last podcast with Amanda Cunningham, where we went over a lot of these things that Mary’s talking about that have happened in her church. Julie Roys: I’m sure there’s people listening, and they’re like, okay, that sounds really, really awful. But how do you know when you hit that tipping point? Because I remember talking to you a couple of years ago and me going, Hey, is this really your pastor? I’m seeing some stuff. How is this your pastor? And you’re like we’re serving, and we love our life group. I get it. I totally, totally get it. But how did you and Patrick, how did you get to the point where you’re like, this is the tipping point, no more? Mary DeMuth: We decided we went into this together, so we decided that we both had to have the same decision. We weren’t going to have one of us leave and one not leave. We were going to do this together. So that took a year of a lot of conversations. And we saw those red flags when you saw them. So we’ve seen them, but as you mentioned, the model of Lake Point used to be, it seems to be shifting now, but it used to be church within a church. And so your life group was really basically what you’re doing, Julie. It’s a small gathering of people where there is someone who teaches, and there’s someone who’s the missions coordinator. And there’s someone who, it’s that’s how, like your church is that group. And so we felt a deep, strong connection to our group. And we felt like we were the pastors of that church within a church. Mary DeMuth: The model has shifted. And I don’t know, it has never been articulated publicly, but it seems from the exterior looking in that it’s more becoming a franchise model, which is where you create this mother church, and it can be duplicated like MacDonald’s in any context. Therefore they may not have that idea that it is church within a church anymore. It has to be something replicatable on all other campuses. And so we began to see this shifting of, this is no longer church within a church, which is really what kept us there. We had people we were serving. And then honestly, I just couldn’t stomach sermons anymore. I couldn’t walk into that building anymore. Mary DeMuth: And as everything became a spectacle the longer we were there, it was all about Sunday morning and the spectacle that it had become like a circus, and I could not find Jesus there. And I would sit in the audience. We had beautifully. articulated and performed auto-tuned worship. It was beautiful. It sounded amazing. There was a lot of rah-rah-rah. There was a lot of energy and it felt like Ichabod to me, like to me as a Christ follower, a mature Christ follower of many years, I couldn’t feel the presence of the Lord anymore. And for me, that’s what is the point of going to a church, if that has happened to you? Mary DeMuth: I’m not saying that other people aren’t experiencing the Lord there. I’m not saying that other people aren’t becoming Christians there. They are. And that’s probably the most problematic part of this whole thing is that they are easily able to point to numbers that are flowing in through the front door, ignoring all of us that have left out the back door. Mary DeMuth: And because it is successful, therefore they can just call me names and malign me or people like Amanda and others, and they can dismiss us because look what God is doing. Julie Roys: And Amanda talked about that same thing about the church within a church and even how each of the churches had different women’s ministries. Julie Roys: And I think about it, it was so personal because people are different and they all had different campuses, have different makeup, they have different cultures and now, this franchise model where you go in, you order a Big Mac, and you get a Big Mac. That’s what you’re used to, right? Julie Roys: But is it? And probably our conversation today, we probably don’t have enough time to really delve into this, but this is something I have been thinking more and more about, is it even church if you have a place where it, maybe a Christian organization and maybe a Christian organization that blesses a lot of people but is it a church where you say to members of the body, we don’t need you, we don’t need your gift, and you can’t serve here? If we have a pastor who doesn’t even know people’s names, if we don’t have that kind of shepherding, is it even a church anymore? Mary DeMuth: I’ll back up before I answer that in that I’ve, been overseas and, anyone that’s been overseas and gone to a McDonald’s overseas knows they have different categories. So even franchises like McDonald’s in France has McWine, right? Or McVine. McDonald’s even understands contextualizing the hamburger to the person, and to the people. So that’s an odd thing for me that there would be this idea that you can just, this is the model and we’re superimposing it on all sorts of different economic people and people in different cultures, and we’re just gonna superimpose it there, which seems super weird to me. Mary DeMuth: On the, is this a church? We have to just go back to simplicity, which is, are we celebrating the Lord’s Supper? Are there sacraments there? Is the word of God being delivered and is it? Mary DeMuth: And then deeper than that, are disciples being made? because there’s a big, huge difference between converts who hear something. And I think about the parable of the soils, they hear it, they receive it with joy, they have no root and then they walk away. We’re not teaching a theology of suffering in most of these bigger churches for sure. Mary DeMuth: But I think we need to remember that a church is supposed to be a place of koinonia, a place of fellowship, a place where we are iron sharpening iron, and a place of discipleship where people are not just converted, but they are just doing the slow work of people pouring into each other’s lives. That’s discipleship. That’s not a top-down model. That’s not pastor to congregation. That’s person to person. And when a church gets so big for its britches these things can fall through the cracks. Mary DeMuth: Now, Lake Point had done a very good job of doing that discipleship piece through their vehicle of a life group. But as things have shifted, we’re seeing a lot less of that. And again, I haven’t been there for six months, so they could be doing it. I don’t know, but just from my perspective today that’s something that’s been difficult to see. Julie Roys: You alluded to this earlier, this idea of leaving well. It’s hard to leave well and even to define what leaving well is. I will say there was one church that my husband and I ended up leaving and it was over a theological disagreement that we just felt we couldn’t bend on. And at the same time, we felt really pulled to another church. They actually had us come up and explain why we were leaving and gathered around us and prayed for us. Julie Roys: That was the most beautiful thing I have ever seen where it was just like, differences and God makes calling you here. We want to bless you as you go. And you’ve met a lot to this church and we mean a lot to each other and let’s just bless each other. It was so beautiful, and I don’t know why this can’t happen more. But usually it’s just a lot of pain and a lot of heartache And when you talk about leaving well, what it usually means to a lot of people, and I’ve heard even Christian leaders talk about this. When you leave well, you just keep your stuff to yourself. Julie Roys: The issues that you had, you suck them under, and you don’t speak about it. And honestly, I think that’s part of our problem in the church is that we don’t talk about our problems. And so we wait till they become a major scandal or crisis. And then they really blow up. And we allow abusive pastors just kind of reign; to continue doing what they’re doing. Julie Roys: So talk about this concept of leaving well. Obviously, you’ve chosen to speak rather boldly about what happened there. I think really from a heart of love and concern for both the church and the people there, not just to vent how you’re feeling. But talk about that and how you’ve come to the decision you have about that. Mary DeMuth: First, I’ll say there’s been kind of an unholy silence. We were pretty high up and we have not been followed up with, and the very few times we were invited into those spaces, it was difficult. So there is that. I would encourage church leaders to do what your former church did, because I think there’s a lot to be learned. Mary DeMuth: I also need to say that we didn’t leave from a position of canceling and of immaturity. There’s one thing if you’re like a church hopper and you’re like, just running around with a consumeristic mindset like, what do I get in this for me? A lot of people that are leaving churches are being accused of being that. But the ones that I know that have left this church are mature, deep believers in Christ who are seeing so many red flags. Mary DeMuth: And the reason I articulated it was because I was running into people who were brokenhearted and didn’t have words for it. And somehow through the grace of God and through his power and his ability, I was able to say the things that people were feeling so that they would no longer feel alone. I would rather have been silent if the Lord hadn’t put his hand on me. Mary DeMuth: I would rather grieve this alone and quietly, but I have seen a lot of really good conversation and ministry happen because of this. I’m not out to harm the reputation of the church. I will never tell someone to leave a church unless they’re being abused, obviously, that’s their own decision. Mary DeMuth: They have the autonomy to make that decision between them and God. But I do want to be a listening ear and an empath for those who are bewildered at the church they’re going to that no longer looks like the church they used to go to. Julie Roys: So tell me what is gossip because this is what is, this is the word, I’ve gotten called this myriads and myriads of times. But what is gossip? And clearly you don’t believe this falls into that category. Why? Mary DeMuth: It’s not gossip to share your emotions about how you’re reacting to an abuse. That is actually being a lot like Paul. And if you look at the letters throughout the epistles in particular, you see Paul saying things about churches. Mary DeMuth: And so if we’re going to talk about gossip, we’d have to call him a gossip because he was constantly calling out, Hey, listen, those Judaizers, they don’t really have it right. Oh, listen, this Gnosticism isn’t good. And that guy’s having sex with his mother-in-law. These kinds of things are, he’s very clear. Mary DeMuth: These are not untrue things he’s saying. These are actually true statements. And underneath all of that is a desire for the church to be the body of Christ and to be holy. It’s not slander because it’s telling the truth. And it’s always with a desire to see God do good work in the local church. And if she is straying, if you love her, you will say something about it. Mary DeMuth: Now there’s a manner in which you can do that. You can be really caustic. You can speak the truth without love, but we are called to speak the truth with love. And I believe that we have conflagrated speaking the truth in love with gossip, and those are two different things. Gossip intends to harm the reputation of another or of an entity; telling the truth in love tries to help that institution have a mirror and see what’s going on. Julie Roys: The motive is really important, although I always get frustrated when people try to judge other people’s motives because the truth is, you don’t know somebody else’s heart. And that’s something I never do. I’ll talk about actions, but I don’t know someone’s heart. Only God knows the heart. But I know that’s something I constantly check myself about is my desire for repentance? is my desire to see these leaders repent? 100 percent, and I know you well enough to know that you would be absolutely thrilled and would extend grace if the leaders who have hurt you so deeply would repent of their sin and would change their ways. I know that and I’m sure you pray for that, that you and Patrick are praying right now for that. Am I right? Mary DeMuth: Absolutely. That is underneath all of this, is just a desire to see the local church healthy and to see her lift up the name of Jesus. And we also just want to again put up a mirror of is this representing the kingdom of God or is this representing something else? And that’s what we were coming to find. Patrick and I both were. The kingdom’s upside down. It’s counterintuitive. It’s the least is the most. And the most is the least. It’s not about building platforms. It’s not about being the winner. It’s not about Christian nationalism. It’s none of these. I don’t even like those two words together. Mary DeMuth: It’s not about power. Jesus willingly laid down his power and he considered equality with God, not something to be grasped. He made himself nothing. And when I see a lot of these big churches and not all of them, but a lot of them where it is very male leader centric celebrity driven. And really about, we want to be the coolest people with the biggest numbers. Mary DeMuth: I don’t get it. They’ll point to Acts chapter two. They’ll talk about how many were added to the kingdom on that day. They’ll call that a mega church. It was not a mega church. People were still meeting in homes. So we just have to be careful. I’m not against mega churches. I actually think that there’s a place for them. Mary DeMuth: Over the years, they we have had the benefit of a megachurch that can go into a community and say, oh, you need a church building, here you go. Like they can do some things that a littler church can’t do. So I’m not against the megachurch, but there is something fallible in the model, the consumeristic model, that is causing all of this anguish. Julie Roys: And I’d say the leadership model. Because we have imported a leadership model that’s of the world and done the exact opposite of what Jesus said, don’t be like the Gentiles who lorded over them, but instead, whoever wants to be first should be last, whoever wants to be greatest should be least. Julie Roys: It is the upside-down kingdom, and we’ve forgotten that. We’ve become just like the world, and we count our success the same way as the world. And we’ve seen this going, it’s been going on a very long time, and I think the megachurches get a lot of the criticism because they’ve. been kind of doing it in spades in an awful lot of them and then exporting these values to all the smaller churches who are wannabes, right? Julie Roys: So you even have smaller churches that are trying to do the exact same thing and they think it’s right because it’s successful very much in the American model of success, which is bigger and better. Before we go forward, there is something I do want to ask you, though, and I would be remiss if I didn’t. What was it about what you and Patrick that you were doing that they didn’t want you serving? Mary DeMuth: I don’t know. They just didn’t want us. That’s what’s been hard is, it’s a speculative, I just don’t know. And I’m willing to be talked to about those things, of course. Like if they feel like something that we’re not godly enough or we’re, or I’m too public or whatever it is, I don’t know. Mary DeMuth: But I do know this, I do know this. When we were told this, what we learned was that they had been morphing from a church that had a lot of lay leaders to a higher control situation where only people who are employed by the church could be in charge of ministries. And so, you can control that. If you can control someone's salary, you can control the whole thing. Mary DeMuth: And so we were just told there is no place for you because we’re not on staff. So that’s probably my guess at a reason is that we were not controllable. And the statement made to us is I’ve got 30 other people just like you that are well trained and that have gone, my husband went to seminary, and all that, but will never use them. We will never use them. And basically, you just need to get over it. You will never be used. Julie Roys: What a waste of resources. Unbelievable. The kingdom is not so well resourced that we don’t need every single person; that God didn’t give gifts every single one of them to be used. Julie Roys: But I will say, I’ve seen this happen before. And the beautiful thing is, people get dispersed, people like yourself and like Patrick, too often churches that are very needy very welcoming. Like Oh, thank God. It’s like Christmas come early, come to Moots, come to our church. And I’m sure you’re experiencing that because I can’t imagine not wanting you and Patrick at my church. It’s just shocking to me. But yeah, that is a benefit of it. It’s the church in Jerusalem getting persecuted. Then they went to the ends of the earth, and we can do that. Julie Roys: One of the things that I’ve seen be a silver lining, if you can call it that, in these sorts of situations is you’re a church refugee, but there’s a lot of other ones out there, too. And there can be a great deal of deep fellowship. And, in many ways, that’s what RESTORE is. It’s a gathering of a lot of not just refugees, a lot of helpers and pastors and people who are allies who just want to know more. But. There’s an awful lot of us there that have been hurt by the church, and there’s just this beautiful, sweet fellowship. Julie Roys: And my understanding is, and Amanda alluded to it in our last podcast, that you guys have served as pastors to these refugees. Would you talk about that sweet group that you were able to love on and pastor through this and just help them? Mary DeMuth: Yeah, we definitely were praying, and we just kept coming upon people. And in particular, people who had been employed but had been harshly fired in very traumatic ways. And we just felt so deeply. I mean for us, it’s sad and we were highly involved and it’s sad, but it wasn’t our job. And so we just had this empathy for those folks. And so we gathered as much as we knew, we put the word out quietly. Mary DeMuth: We gathered people for several weeks and met with them. And these were people that some were still there, and some were not, and some were walking away from Jesus. It was just the whole gamut of a wide variety of people in a lot of pain. And what we wanted to do was just to help them know our first session was called, You are not crazy. We just wanted them to know. that what they had seen and experienced was real and validated by the rest of us. And then we’ve just been walking through Chuck DeGroat's information about narcissism in the church and narcissistic church systems. And then talking about what is a safe person and what is a safe system. And then praying and crying and grieving and giving people the space that they are not allowed to have to get out all this junk that’s inside of us because it’s been so, so painful. Julie Roys: And I want to get to the safe system and the safe person, because I’m sure there’s a lot of people listening who would like that information as well. Julie Roys: But let’s talk about the feelings first, because when this happens, there is. Again, we talked about bewilderment. There’s just this mix of negative emotions that you don’t know what to do with a lot of times. One is anger and anger in the church has been one of these emotions that we just don’t deal with very well. And I’ve said this numerous times, but this is one that we’ll get. We’ll get thrown back in my face and people say, you sound like you’re angry and I’m like, darn I’m angry. Why aren’t you angry? Why wouldn’t we be angry when these awful things are happening in the church? And yet again, as a Christian, we feel guilty when we’re angry. So how have you dealt with your own anger, and helped others who are dealing with similar anger? Mary DeMuth: The first thing that we did was we process outside of the circle of the church because we needed to know if we were going crazy. Is this normal? Are these things that we’re saying? Is it a big deal? Or are we just being babies? We definitely did that. And then it’s been the prayer of let this anger fuel something beautiful, because I do believe that great movements of God happen because there’s injustice and we are angry at the injustice. Mary DeMuth: I often joke that I write a book when I’m angry, so I must be a pretty angry person at book 52. There’s injustice in this world and our God is righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne. When we do the work of making note of people who are being hurt and oppressed and harmed, we are doing the Lord’s work. And so that anger can be a fuel to doing positive things Mary DeMuth:. Now, I also just want to say, it’s okay to be angry. I’m angry and I have been angry and I’m processing that with friends and I’m processing it with my husband and with the Lord. Rightfully so, because I see so many people, to use Mark Driscoll’s frustrating phraseology, the people behind the bus. I’m meeting so many people behind the bus that are getting the bus is backing up over the people. Because not only cause when if you say anything, if you dare to say anything, you will get run over again and again, you will be accused of all sorts of things when really your desire is to see people set free and to open the eyes of people that are being harmed so that they no longer have to be in that system anymore. Julie Roys: And what a great deal of fear these leaders must feel. to behave that way that you have to annihilate people who say anything negative. I’ve gotten quite comfortable with people saying negative things. I just want to make sure if there’s truth in it, that I take it to heart. It’s okay, but in the end of the day, you’ve got to be okay with who you are before your Lord. And those closest to you who will tell you the truth when you’re veering off. That desire to control that desire that you have to shut down negative communication. I can’t imagine living in that much fear that you constantly are doing that. And yet that’s what we see. Julie Roys: And that whole thing about feeling like you’re crazy. So much of that’s because you’ve been told you’re crazy. You’ve been told that because that’s the gaslighting that happens when you say there’s a problem. No, there is no problem. You’re the problem. Mary DeMuth: It’s back to the emperor with no clothes. We all see the naked emperor and only a little kid says he’s not wearing any clothes. And we’re like Oh, yeah, but there’s this like kind of delusional thing or czarist Russia, the Potemkin village. If you know what that is, it was a village that was just set up like a movie set so that when the czar went by he could see that this Potemkin’s village was actually a really cool place, but you open the door, you walk through, it’s just mud and dirt on the other side and some horses grazing in a field. Church is not a Potemkin village. It should never be. It should not be a facade that we are trying to hold up by shaming people who say negative things. The church is a living, breathing organization. It is the body of Christ. Mary DeMuth: God does not need to be defended. He can do just fine by himself. And this fear that you talk about is very real because it’s about human empire. Whenever we build our Roman empire on our cult of personality and our particular views about things and not on the word of God and not on studying the word of God, then we will be threatened by anyone who says anything negative because that will eat away at the foundation of our FACO empire. Julie Roys: Very well said. That is very well said. Let’s talk about grief. And I was reminded of the Kubler Ross Stages of grief. And let me see. Those are denial, which is often where we start, right? When things go wrong, anger, the bargaining we can work this out somehow, right? Depression and sink into that deep depression. This is just so sad. And then there’s acceptance, which is that last one. And it’s not like these are completely linear because what I found is you go through, oh, I’ve worked through to acceptance. No, I haven’t. I’m back at anger again. Julie Roys: Something will happen. it'll put you right back there. So it’s not completely linear, but how have you moved toward acceptance? What does acceptance look like? And maybe that’s a long way off but talk about where you’re at in that whole process. Mary DeMuth: I think a lot of people are in this space. There’s a lot of loyal people and that’s where the bargaining comes in. And a lot of the people I’ve talked to are like, yeah, I never go to that church anymore, like to the services, but I’m here because of my small group and they’re my church. There’s this, that we were in that space for a really long time. We can make this work. This is our church, not that other part is not the church, but it’s all together. Mary DeMuth: So once we got to the decision and made the decision, then the depression set in for sure. And I think I’m still there working my way through it of thinking that I was going to be there the rest of my life. As a person who grew up in a really difficult home and met Jesus at 15 years old, the church became my family. My family was not my family. And the church was the one place where I could go to be loved, to be healed, to be worked, just to work through my salvation with fear and trembling. And so, to walk away from something that you’ve been at the most we’ve ever been at a church is 23. This is the longest we’ve ever been somewhere to walk away from. It felt like I lost my limb. I lost my family, my father’s in the faith, my mother’s in the faith, my aunts, and my uncles in the faith. And then to be villainized for just having eyes to see what the heck is going on, has been devastating, devastating. So I’m still in the grief phase and I don’t cry much about it because I’ve sometimes just shoved it way down deep because I did not ever expect that I was going to have to leave a place I loved so much. Julie Roys: There’s a, I think it’s a short story and I should know the name of it, but it’s about someone, a man who goes to a cemetery and he sees a woman just weeping and weeping, and he’s there to visit his partner who had died. I don’t think he had actually married her. But he realizes in that moment that the person who’s grieving, who’s crying and just sobbing is the richer person. Because they had loved deeply and he had never loved that deeply. And I’ve thought about that, I lost my mother over 20 years ago and she was so special and I never like, I hear some people talk about their mothers, and how difficult or what I never felt that way. My mother was just a joy, but it was so hard to lose her, but it was hard because I loved her so much. Julie Roys: And I think, I’m so grateful for you that you did have that church experience where you were loved so deeply, where you loved deeply, and I’ve got to believe that God will provide that family again. It will be different. And I know I just feel so blessed by our church family that we found in this wasteland or out of the wasteland. Julie Roys: But it’s been really, really special because I don’t have to explain anything to these people. They understand the world I work in. They understand. It’s just, it’s really been a gift. And I think it’s been a gift too. And I know you have adult children. I’m glad I had these adult children because they’re a blessing in ways that they couldn’t be and a support in ways that they couldn’t be when they were younger, when we had to be everything to them. Julie Roys: And I’m glad I’m not dealing with, and I know a lot of people are, is what do we do for our kids now? And then there’s that pressure to find something for your children right away. And that makes it really hard. But as believers, we are taught, Hebrews 10:25, let us not give up meeting together as some are in the habit of doing, but all the more as the day of the Lord approaches, let us encourage each other and all the more as the day approaches. I have found sometimes that can be used as a club against people who are just grieving, and they’re dealing with a great deal of betrayal trauma at this point. Julie Roys: And now we’re going to hit them over the head and say, you better be in church on Sunday. When they walk into a church and it just triggers, it’s a trigger for them. I believe in fellowship. I believe in the church. I love the church, but I am concerned about the process of helping people reengage after they’ve been wounded so profoundly. Julie Roys: So speak to this process of finding a new church home, or even having the freedom for a period of time to say, I don’t know. I don’t know that I can do that right now. Obviously, there is a danger if we’re out of fellowship for too long. But speak to that person who right now is outside of fellowship and really afraid to reengage with it. Mary DeMuth: Yeah. First, you’re super normal. And if you’ve been wounded in a terrible community, the stakes are pretty high, when you walk in, especially if you’re triggered or traumatized by walking into a building. I don’t know that I could walk into a big church right now. Like I just don’t think I could, I think I would have a hard time with that. Mary DeMuth: So for us, how we went about it and everyone’s going to be different, we did want to land somewhere because we just feel like we’re in that stage of, we want to serve the church. And so for our little parameters, and I think it’ll be different for every person. Ours was, it needs to be local. And we’re hoping that there will be people there already that we’re friends with. Mary DeMuth: And since we’re in a little town, right? So there’s, 1 billion churches and little towns in Texas, right? So we had plenty to choose from so many, and we didn’t even get to all of them, but that was our parameter in choosing a home. In fact, we just officially joined a church yesterday. So it did take some time to get to that place. But I just want to let you know that it’s normal to be scared, to be triggered, to be in pain. Mary DeMuth: Don’t let it stay there. You are wounded in a negative community and the Lord is very frustrating and he asks you to be healed in good community. That’s hard. But a relational wound requires a relational cure, and that’s one reason why Patrick and I have been pouring into people who are hurt because we want to be that safer relationship for people to be falling apart or hurting or ask really blunt questions and be really ticked off. Because I believe people are healed in community when they’re wounded in community. Julie Roys: 100%. And I know when I came through just so much grief and pain and church hurt. I know a lot of people go to therapy and I’m not against therapy, but I was like, I don’t need to talk to this about this with a counselor. It’s just not like that. I need to be in a community where there’s love. I need to see beauty in people like again. And even though I’m afraid to be vulnerable on some levels at the same time, I’m compelled to be vulnerable because I know until you do that, you can’t heal. Mary DeMuth: When we met with the person who became our pastor and there’s a multiplicity of pastors in this particular denomination, but we sat across from him and we told him our story and he just listened, and he dignified the story. And then he said this, he said, we just want to love you. And I just immediately just, I was like, what? you don’t want to use me? Cause we’ve been in leadership positions in the church for so long, our whole adult lives we’ve been in those positions and for him to say, we just want to love you. And that was foreign to me, but that was the beginning of that healing journey. Julie Roys: I had a pastor at one of the churches we visited when we were in this search process. And it was at a very large church I would say it’s probably a megachurch, and we sat across from him and he said a very similar thing. It was really wonderful. And he said, “I think you guys have been wounded deeply, and you need a place to heal. And we do just want to love you. What was interesting is when I came back to him with a follow up email, because part of me is like wait, this is a megachurch. Am I insane? Julie Roys: I’m just like looking at it and being like, I don’t think this is at all what I want. And then I emailed him. I said, we want a pastor. Would you be able to pastor us? And then he basically declined as nicely as he could; like I’d love to be, but I can’t and I’m like I don’t need a small group leader to try and pastor me. I was just kind of like of course, you can’t because you have the corporation to run. And so that is again a fundamental issue that I do have with the mega church. Julie Roys: One thing I found and I see it here, because I don’t know how many people in the Chicago area who have left Willow Creek and ended up at Harvest. They’re like, wow, di I know how to pick them! They’re going from something that’s become familiar. And if you became a believer at Willow, then that big model, that big service, whiz bang entertaining sermon or inspirational talk, whatever you want to call it. Julie Roys: Although I’ll say at Harvest, he preached he discipled people. I know a lot of people from Harvest that were discipled shockingly by a really depraved pastor. But I see them going from what they’re used to. And it’s almost like when I see people who grew up in a dysfunctional home and thank God you didn’t do this, but they often then replicate that in their own home, or they’re attracted to that same kind of dysfunction in the next home. Julie Roys: And I’ve seen it with churches and I’m just like, why are you going to the same model of church that you just left? And I see that there’s this thought in their head that it’s just the one bad apple. That’s all it is. It’s the one bad apple, but basically there’s nothing wrong with the system. Julie Roys: I think there’s something fundamentally wrong with the system. So speak to that. Do you think, I know you’ve got some pretty strong opinions now about celebrity megachurches, even though you said some megachurches we’ve seen work. Do you have some thoughts about the model of church and what makes a safe church? Mary DeMuth: Yes. So many thoughts. I’ll start with a story. In the early two thousand, I went to my first Christian writers conference before I was published and on the airplane on the way there, my story flashed before my eyes and I said, Lord I’ve withstood a lot of trials. Like I’ve gone through a lot of trials. Mary DeMuth: And he said clearly to me, you have withstood many trials, but will you withstand the trial of notoriety? And that has stayed in my mind all these years because fame emaciates, fame makes you think that you’re better than other people and that people exist to serve you rather than you equipping the saints for the work of service. Mary DeMuth: And when the systems are in a place, typically what happens is the ego takes over. There’s something deep within the narcissistic system. And in the narcissistic pastor, they have this wound that they can’t fill except by acclaim. And then it’s like a drug, so they have to keep being acclaimed. They cannot have negative things said about them. Mary DeMuth: Therefore, the next thing they’ll do is they will dismantle the elder board, or they will significantly reduce the influence of the elder board that exists or completely dismantle it altogether. They will gather yes-men around themselves who will only say positive things to them that are not in their context that cannot see them do the bad things And who are other megachurch pastors. So there’s just this like cabal of megachurch pastors that are sitting on each other’s boards saying you can do whatever you want and have fun. Mary DeMuth: That system is ungodly and that will cause the fall of many leaders, which we have already seen over and over and over. It’s like a broken record of sameness. It keeps happening. Why? Because I think we are creating a church structure from a pyramid, which if you look in the Bible, the Israelites left Egypt, but were still looking back at it. One person at the top, one Pharaoh at the top, one supreme ruler, and then everybody has to fit into that system underneath that pyramid. Mary DeMuth: Whereas the kingdom of God is the opposite of that. It’s an inverted pyramid. The kingdom is of people that are last to are not acknowledged. And I think we’re going to be super surprised at where they are standing in line and the new heavens and the new earth, the people with all the acclaim are going to be way at the back. The people that nobody knew about that were silently and quietly serving the Lord are going to be at the front of the line. And we’re going to say, tell me your story, I want to learn from you. Mary DeMuth: But these structures cause the downfall of many men who do not have the character to hold up that structure. They’ve been given leadership responsibility without having maturity, and therefore they are stealing sermons. They are harming people with their words. They are demonizing others. They are all sorts of things you talked about last week. They’re doing those things because they have to keep their empire because their ego needs it so badly. Julie Roys: And the other thing is, and we can’t really even go into this, although I know you see this too, because you run your own literary agency, is that the evangelical industrial complex needs these celebrity pastors to function. So they need the publishing companies need the celebrities so that they can publish them, so that the megachurches need the celebrity to fuel their model of that great attractional speaker that can be everything. Which again, does just feed into the narcissism and it attracts the narcissism. Julie Roys: We like the narcissist. And the whole entire moneymaking empire runs on these narcissists and these celebrity pastors. And so it’s not just even the pastor himself who needs to be a celebrity, but it’s this system that needs celebrities. And at some point, Mary we’ve got to deal with this and evangelicalism, or we’re just going to keep doing this over and over and over again. Mary DeMuth: And I believe the Lord is bringing judgment on those systems. And we’re seeing that in publishing as well. I think it’s a broken system. We make these requirements of how popular you are to be able to be an author. In the nineties and before, it was really about can you write a good book? Is it theologically sound? Do you have a good mind? Do you have a heart to minister to others? And now it’s how many social media followers do you have? Which is you can buy those. Mary DeMuth: So what does that even mean? I hate being a cog in the Christian industrial complex, both as an author and as a literary agent, but as an agent, I feel like I’m championing projects that would otherwise not get sold. That are more global voices people that are marginalized and not often given a voice. So that’s why I have a literary agency. Cause I’m trying to have those voices platformed. Julie Roys: Before you go, I want to ask you also about, we’ve talked a little bit about a safe church, but what makes somebody a safe person as you’re trying to process this? Mary DeMuth: A safe person is someone who doesn’t speak initially, who is an active listener. Who doesn’t jump to conclusions, who doesn’t feel the need to defend the church that you are leaving, who doesn’t say things like Hebrew says don’t forsake your assembling together. Those kinds of like cliche, like super cliche oh, you better do this instead of just meeting you in your grief. Mary DeMuth: A safe person doesn’t try to change your state. They come alongside you into your state and they weep alongside. And that to me is so powerful. People won’t remember what you said, but they will remember that you were there with them in the pain. And we’re just willing to say, yeah, that hurts. And, oh, that must’ve been very painful. Just that empathy piece. Julie Roys: And they won’t shame you for deconstructing. They’ll walk with you; they’ll allow you to process. And I hate that when I see that. I see it on social media all the time, people denigrating people who are deconstructing and I’m like, maybe if you didn’t do that, maybe they wouldn’t be walking away from their faith. But again, deconstructing, I think takes a lot of different forms. I think for a lot of people that have gone through it; they’ve come back to a richer faith that stripped of maybe some of the baggage that they had previously. Julie Roys: Before I let you go, because I know a lot of people listening are in this place of just really, really struggling and in a lot of hurt. And I know you have names and faces for those people too. Would you be willing to just pray for them and what they’re going through right now? Mary DeMuth: I will. And I’m just going to mention, I have a free resource, MARYDEMUTH.COM/CHURCHHURT. And it’s a hundred statements about things that people feel when they’re going through church hurt so that you can share it with a friend and check off the ones that are you, and then have a good conversation about it. Julie Roys: Wonderful. What a great resource. Thank you. Mary DeMuth: Yeah. Okay. Let me pray. Lord, thank you for loving the least of these. Thank you for leaving the 99 and chasing the one. Thank you for being counterintuitive. Thank you for the Sermon on the Mount. Thank you for your grace being sufficient for us and your power is made perfect in our weakness. Mary DeMuth: Lord, forgive us for these systems where we are worshiping strength, power, and numbers when that’s nothing to do with your kingdom. Reorient our lives and our hearts to what is your kingdom. Help us to hear your voice in the midst of the madness and the muddledness of what this has become. I pray that you would send friends to my friends who are suffering in the aftermath of spiritual abuse and church hurt. Mary DeMuth: I pray for hope Lord in these kinds of situations, it can feel like a death, and it feels very hopeless and sad. I pray for comfort and pray all of this in your beautiful name, Jesus. Amen. Julie Roys: Amen. Mary. Thank you so much. And how beautiful that even in this you are ministering to others through it. So I am just so grateful for you and for Patrick and for what you bring to the kingdom. And thank you so much for being willing to talk so vulnerably and bravely. So thank you. Mary DeMuth: Thank you. Julie Roys: And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I want to invite all of you to our next Restore Conference in Phoenix in February 2025. Julie Roys: This is one of the most healing gatherings I know of, where you won’t just hear from amazing folks like Mary DeMuth and Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tove, and Dr. David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. But you’ll also meet lots of other people who have gone through similar experiences, and I’ve found that just being in that kind of community is so healing. Julie Roys: And so powerful. So please come. I would love to meet you there. To find out more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. Julie Roys: And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. 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Were Pastors Meant To Be Atlas?

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 14, 2024 51:04

Guest Bios Show Transcript Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Think about what it means when applied to a pastor's role in a church. What about the priesthood of all believers? And where is Jesus in that equation? In this edition of The Roys Report, veteran church planter and pastor, Lance Ford, challenges popular views of leadership, showing how they're the opposite of what Scripture teaches. In the Body of Christ, the pastor is not the head; Jesus is! In 2012, Lance Ford's landmark work UnLeader exposed how unbiblical models of leadership have become an obsession in the church. Now The Atlas Factor, which is about shifting leadership onto the shoulders of Jesus, serves as a sequel to that book. One of the most eye-opening truths of The Atlas Factor is that leadership, when presented as a key to organizational success, is a relatively new concept. The multi-billion-dollar industry built around teaching and training people in leadership—in both the corporate world and the church—has emerged only within the past 40 to 50 years. And this model of leadership didn't come from Scripture; it came from the world. Lance was featured in a recent podcast with his message from the Restore Conference titled, “It's the System, Stupid.” If you caught that message, then you heard a preview of what Lance and Julie delve into in-depth in this podcast. Lance's prophetic message is a clarion call to the church to return to Jesus' way of doing things—or continue to face disastrous consequences. Guests Lance Ford Lance Ford is an author, church planter, coach, and consultant who has designed unique training systems currently being used by networks, seminaries, and leaders throughout the world. He has written several books including The Atlas Factor, UnLeader, The Missional Quest, and The Starfish and the Spirit. Lance holds a master's degree in Global Leadership from Fuller Theological Seminary. Learn more at LanceFordBooks.com. Show Transcript SPEAKERSLANCE FORD, Julie Roys Julie Roys 00:04Everything rises or falls on leadership. Ever heard that line? Certainly, great leaders can make a big difference in the success of an organization. But think about what that line applied to the church really means. Does everything rise or fall on the pastor? What about the priesthood of all believers? What about the body of Christ, where each member plays a vital role? And most importantly, what about Jesus? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and joining me today is Lance Ford, who spent decades planting and pastoring churches. And recently we published his talk from the RESTORE conference where he argued that so many of the scandals and issues that we see in the church today stem from our toxic model of leadership. Well, today you’re in for a treat, because Lance is joining me to discuss his new book, The Atlas Factor. And this book eviscerates the conventional wisdom that leadership is everything. In fact, one of the most eye-opening things I learned in this book is that leadership is a relatively new concept. Sure, there have always been people who lead and manage organizations. But leadership as this thing that’s crucial to the success of organizations is relatively new. And certainly, the industry that’s been built around teaching and training people in leadership in both the corporate world and the church is super new, like within the past 40 to 50 years. But I think the pressing question, especially in the church concerns whether these notions of leadership we’re training pastors to follow are actually biblical. And if they’re not, what’s the alternative? We’ll dig into those questions in just a minute. Julie Roys 01:46 But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres, just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys 02:49 Well, again, joining me is Lance Ford, a church planter, coach, and consultant who spent decades pastoring and planting churches. And out of that experience and biblical study, he’s designed unique training systems that are being used by seminaries, church networks, and leaders throughout the world. Lance is also the author of several books, including one of my favorites called Unleader. This book exposes the obsession in the church to unbiblical models of leadership. It’s fantastic and eye opening. And Lance’s latest book, The Atlas Factor, is essentially a sequel to Unleader, and it’s quickly become one of my favorites as well. So, Lance, thanks so much for joining me. I’m really, really looking forward to our discussion. LANCE FORD 03:29 It’s always one of my favorite things to do is visit with you, Julie. Julie Roys 03:32 I’m glad to hear that. And I should mention that you also are a recent addition to The Roys Report board. So, we’re pretty excited about that. But I know you spoke at RESTORE and I heard from so so many people, but our board as well, just saying, hey, we need to get this guy on our board. So just really, really glad for all the wisdom that you’re going to bring to the board. So, thanks for being willing to do that. LANCE FORD 03:55 Well, it’s a huge honor to be invited to be a part of y’all. The boardroom didn’t get smarter because I showed up it probably got a little dumber When I joined. Julie Roys 04:04 I do not believe that. But as I mentioned, you spoke at RESTORE and gave a great talk on toxic leadership and our obsession with it and probably had the best line of the entire conference I have to say, which became the title of the podcast that we put out with your talk, which is, It’s the System, Stupid! Just briefly for those who didn’t hear your talk, which if you didn’t hear Lance’s talk, it’s the System, Stupid!, I think it was like back in mid-December, we published that. Go back and listen to his talk. It is so so good. But talk about what you meant by that, that it’s the system stupid. LANCE FORD 04:41 I think probably Julie one day I was probably somewhere along the midst of listening to The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, and I was just thinking, they just keep talking about symptoms, symptoms. They never get to the solution, and I just said it out loud. It’s the system stupid. And it reminded me, James Carville’s deal with Clinton. It’s the economy stupid. So that’s kind of where that came from is that all these problems that we have are downstream from a messed-up system. And you can’t just deal with the symptoms and try to throw drugs at the symptoms. You have to bandage the wounds, pouring the oil on the wine, that’s necessary to say the least. Well, let’s do some preventative medicine. Let’s go back to the headwaters of this thing and try to nip some of this stuff in the bud. And it just seems that the answer almost every time, especially internally, from the groups that are in the midst of these falls and these breakdowns in leadership, usually their answer is, well, we just need better accountability. But it’s the same type of what they call accountability. So rare is it that when you hear a group say, well, we need new leadership, they don’t mean they need new leadership systems. They mean, we need a new hero leader. Julie Roys 06:05 Yeah. Oh, exactly. I mean, I remember when Rick Warren was stepping down. And of course, there’s all sorts of issues with Andy Wood, who was picked as his successor. And we’ve published many articles on how he apparently is a horribly abusive leader. But he’s now in that position. And when I heard the language, though, it was like we need to find a successor for Rick. And I thought, really, who can be the successor to Rick Warren, and who is capable of being in a position over so many churches and having so many people following you? And I sit there and wonder, because there’s this idea that there’s going to be this really good, noble, full of integrity leader that can handle those kinds of pressures. And I sit there, and I look at that, and I’m like, I don’t know that I can handle that. That’s an awful lot to shoulder. And I think that really is at the root of what you’re talking about in this book, The Atlas Factor. The metaphor is great of you know, Atlas with the weight of the world on his shoulders. But essentially, that’s what we’ve set up leaders to be, to be Atlas, to do the impossible, and then we’re surprised when they fail. Here’s a quote that’s very early in your book from the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, they’re irrefutable. LANCE FORD 07:15 Be careful, Julie. Julie Roys 07:17 But the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership is this quote from LeRoy Eims, “a leader is one who sees more than others see, who sees further than others see, and who sees before others do.” And then there’s the quote that I said at the beginning of the podcast, that “everything rises or falls on leadership.” It’s almost like we have made these men into gods; talk about that whole dynamic and what it’s doing to pastors. LANCE FORD 07:47 The thing about the typical the prevailing leadership system in the overwhelming majority of churches today, it puts a weight up on the senior, and I might as well just say senior guy, cuz 99% of them are guys. But there are a few women in senior leadership positions, but just the job description, and then even the unwritten expectations that are placed upon them. I know I was a pastor for well over 20 years and was a church planter and a senior pastor for 10 years. So, if you just look at the job description, you’re basically the CEO. In fact, some of them call themselves CEOs, you’re the face of the church, the organization, you’re the top fundraiser, you are the top theologian, you’re supposed to be a marriage expert, a family expert, a child rearer. I mean, just go on and on and by the way, you need to give 45 to 50 fantastic talks a year too. No one’s built for that. And certainly when you go to the New Testament of any description of any type of leadership in the church, you don’t see that. In fact, Paul mentioned several times that he wasn’t even a good speaker. So, it’s a burden. And so that created the metaphor for The Atlas Factor for the book. It’s the weight of the world. It’s like Atlas, and a lot of people look at Atlas and they go, he was this hero. No, that was a punishment, Zeus gave him the punishment of having to hold the weight of the world on his shoulders. It’s out of order. It’s a misalignment. So, a lot of these pastors are victims too; Even the ones that don’t abuse, they’re being abused by this system of expectations, this fault system of leadership as it’s been cast upon them. And then of course, the ones as you said, that are narcissistic, have the tendencies, then they take that power, and then they become the abusers. And basically, then they take that weight, and they place it up on the shoulders of their staff or the volunteers and church members, and then they crush others with that weight. Julie Roys 09:49 I have heard that so much from these churches where there is this big celebrity pastor, and they have to put on the big show and it’s really impossible to do. I mean, I have I always said, When my husband and I used to be youth pastors and we always said, The World entertains better than we do. So, if you want to be entertained, like go see a movie, go to all those things, but in the church, we’re gonna focus on worship and prayer and discipleship and Bible study. That’s what we do. But I think we’ve gotten away from that. And we’ve certainly gotten to this model where man we have to put on the show every week, and it’s crushing. And the staffs are getting crushed too. You quote this in your book that there’s a 2021 Barna study, 38% of pastors say they’ve considered quitting within the past year. And then if you look at pastors who are just 45 or younger, that jumps to 46%. So, I mean, if this plays out, we’re looking at a crisis in the church, we’re not going to have pastors willing to take these jobs. LANCE FORD 10:45 Yeah well, there’s some stats that came out, I forget if it was Barna or who it was a couple of weeks ago. But it said that right now, currently, between four and 5000 pastors a month, are leaving the ministry. So you’re talking about a huge under the watermark in the boat of the church right now. So not only are people leaving the church, but you’ve got pastors leaving the church. So, it is a crisis, as you said. Julie Roys 11:09 Although, I have to say at the same time, like I’m in this small house church, and he said recently, if we get a pastor, I’m gone. I’m gone. I mean, I think we’re a unique group, because there’s some pretty highly competent, mature Christians in there. So, you kind of have more leaders than you know what to do with. So, God help the pastor that would come in and try to pastor that. But yeah, I think there is sort of a suspicion about pastors. But really, because I think exactly what you’re talking about in this book is that we have merged this idea of leadership that really is worldly based with, we’ve kind of baptized it in Christian lingo. So that now so many people think that leadership, the way it’s being taught, you know, by people who claim they’re Christian, so that, you know, this must be biblical, is biblical. But leadership, it’s not really talked about very much in Scripture is it? LANCE FORD 12:03 It’s not that there’s not leaders in Scripture, there’s leaders all throughout Scripture, but the leadership system as we know it today, in fact, leader or leadership is not even mentioned. It’s like, a half a dozen times in the entire New Testament. And it’s not spoken favorably, most of those times. But if you really get down to it, and I do try to make a delineation between attorney leader in leadership, because it’s become such a in our nomenclature today, but it’s a real new term. I’ve said that before some well-known authors that immediately react, and just like push back. Okay, first off, definitely, there’s been leadership forever. And it’s been studied. I mean, the Chinese going back to the 1300s. I mean, you can look at Plato and Machiavelli and others that studied leadership, but not leadership as we know it today. And what got me on this was just doing some research on it. And I just got curious one day and thought, Well, I’m gonna look up the word leadership. And I went to my old 1955 Oxford Dictionary, which is probably the best because it gives the evolution of words. And it wasn’t even defined there. I couldn’t even find the term and a definition, I finally found at one time in about a seven- or eight-word definition for the word leader, but then it didn’t even define leadership. That pushed me back further, you start reverse engineering, you know, how you are doing research, and I found the 1915 Webster dictionary. The word leadership was not even in there. And that really took me down a rabbit hole of finding out after just doing a couple of years of research, in searching even secular scholars that had done research on the word leadership and come to find out you couldn’t even find the word leadership until the mid-19th century. So, you’re not finding publications anywhere that mentioned it until the early 1900s. Even the term. Now the reason I say that, and it should stand out to us as a stark contrast, because leadership is an $87 billion dollar industry today. 87 billion, I mean, that’s more than entertainment, media and everything put together. So, it’s a huge thing that’s evolved over the last 100 years. And it didn’t even really start entering in the church, which is a gigantic thing in the church now, it didn’t even start entering into the church until I would say the 1970s. Because you can’t even find a dozen books with the term leadership in the title, even in the 1960s. So, it’s a really new thing. And now, and I say it as its defined, because you could interchange the word management and you’d be just fine because that’s really what it is. It’s management theory. It goes back to Peter Drucker 1966, his famous book, The Effective Executive. There were some significant church growth leaders took that book, they parlayed it into the Church Growth Movement because some leaders such as Robert Schuller, for instance, with Crystal Cathedral, Robert Schuller doesn’t get enough if you want to call it credit or blame for really being the biggest shaper of what we have today. And my research bears this out. You can track Bill Hybels in Willow Creek, they go right back to Schuler, although they scrubbed a lot of that from their history, because Schuler became so controversial that they just didn’t want to be associated with him. Rick Warren was a disciple of Schuler. Schuler was a disciple of Norman Vincent Peale. That’s where he got all of his positive thinking and everything. But then all of them went to Peter Drucker to get the management systems. And then Bob Buford, who created Leadership Network, which a lot of people, the listeners would say, I’ve never heard of a guy named Bob Buford. Well, he was way behind the scenes. But he was hugely shaping of what we have today with Leadership Network and funded and raised up and platformed and helped develop a lot of those leaders such as Hybels and Warren and others. And then a lot of the newer leaders that lead these prevailing, what I call Neo attractional churches today, their heritage, the family tree goes straight back to Peter Drucker and these management systems. And these management systems just conflict with what Jesus said Matthew 20, of the Gentiles, or the world systems; it’s a metaphor, he where if he was in the Old Testament would have said, The Babylonians or the Egyptians. But when he says the Gentiles practice dominating one another, or lorded over one another, it will not be this way among you. But the first will be last, the greatest will be the servant, which basically was pushing back against power, and against dominating one another in any system in his kingdom. But that’s the very thing that we have today. And it goes right back to management systems that we imported straight into the church. Julie Roys 17:06 And you alluded to this, that we don’t see lead or leader much in Scripture. You write, and this was in Unleader as well, and this just blew me away, that we see the word disciple 260 times, as opposed to leader. Leader, I think is mentioned like seven times. So, it’s a 37:1 ratio. We used to think of the pastor as the shepherd. Even when I was a kid, that was really the prevailing metaphor was that our pastor was the shepherd, that changed. And I remember even when I was at Willow Creek because my husband and I spent several years there. And I just remember Hybels talking about how they had found shepherds to do the shepherding within the church, because he didn’t do it. It was kind of like, yeah, they have been put in as pastors, but they’re really more Shepherd. So, we’re putting them over here to let them Shepherd. Meanwhile, I’ll do the pastor thing, which is being the great orator and charismatic leader, and all that. And that became our model for pastor and then of course, Bill Hybels brought in so many worldly leadership. In fact, if you go and read about the Global Leadership Summit, like I’ve read some of the articles that were published in secular publications saying, Man, this is like the best business school that’s out there, like, I know, it’s at a church, but this is like, this is a great business school. Everybody in business, whether you’re a Christian or not, whatever you profess, just go to this really good. And we love that as Christians, because we constantly were seeking the world’s affirmation, which is really sad. Like we wanted that credibility in the church. So again, you’re putting language into things I felt for so long, and that the research in your book, you even go back farther, and I found some of this stuff that gave birth to our modern leadership movement was fascinating. And you start with 1840s, 1900, around there with this thing called Great Man theory. Describe what this is, and how it’s impacted our view of leadership today. LANCE FORD 19:01 Great Man theory was the prevailing ideology of where great leaders came from. That was the term that they used. And so, when you go back and you look at even, I was able to even trace back and find some of the speaking topics for some conventions, conferences that were taking place back in the 1920s and 1930s. And so Great Man theory was basically the idea that leaders are born, they’re not made. And so, you’re gonna think about Teddy Roosevelt, you’re gonna think about Abraham Lincoln, Napoleon, people like this, that just have this ability to lead, and you can’t make it. So that that would that would mean there’s a real limitation if you don’t happen to have a great man walk into the room, you know. So, then they started studying the traits of the great man and that about 20 years after Great Man theory was the prevailing theory. Then by the 1930s, 1940s was what was called Trait Theory, and they basically were studying the traits of the great man and saying, Well, maybe it’s possible that we can teach these traits, we can mimic these traits, and we can actually make great leaders. That’s how it started evolving. Then there became for a while it became what was called Group theory, which they said, well, leadership really is an effect upon a group of people. They actually started getting a little closer to what was right about what I would call leadership, that leadership is a fruit product. It’s not a position, I would say a faithfully following Jesus as a servant. But then they moved away from the group theory, and that really went back into a person at the top. And then Management theory, by the 1950s, to corporate America, and the Industrial Revolution had matured and was getting old by that time. By that time, it really became Management theory. And then we replaced it with the word leadership. And like you said, earlier, Julie, I was just reflecting a while back and thinking, you know, when I was growing up, if you walked into a Denny’s, there were no Starbucks back then. So, if you walk through a breakfast place, and let’s say that there was and we used to have in small towns, they would call it the Ministerial Alliance. And pastors of local churches that actually liked each other, and they get together about once a month. So if you were to see a group of those guys sitting around, have a breakfast together, I say, 1980. I’ll guarantee you; the word leader and leadership would not even been uttered at that table while they’re having breakfast. It wouldn’t even come into their mind. They might have called themselves pastors or shepherds, they probably call themselves ministers. And certainly, the people from the local community sitting around would look over and said, Oh, yeah, that’s the ministers. They wouldn’t say that’s the leaders. That’s the leaders of the faith community. It just wasn’t in their thinking, right? Because the word Minister means servant, but it’s washed out today. And so, I mean, who wants to be a servant? You want to be a leader. This was the problem with the disciples of Jesus, and they watched him be a servant, and he still had to, you know, thump upside of the head, more than one occasion. Julie Roys 22:20 I want to read a section of your book because I think it really crystallizes the moment that we’re living in right now. You write, “The industrial leadership approach to church leadership caused us to abandon the understanding of the church as a body and turn to a view of the church as a machine. Our language and titles changed as we veered away from the code of the New Testament in Jesus. It became normal to hear terms and titles such as strategic initiative, ROI, return on investment scale, engineering, management, leader, executive, superior, replace biblical language, such as steward, disciple, co-laborers, servant, minister, elder, brothers and sisters, et cetera. Noncompetes, and NDAs, and HR became leverage points in place of loving your brother, blessing those you believed were your enemy and letting your Yes be Yes and your No be No.” Bingo. Right there. I mean, I talk a lot about the Evangelical industrial complex. And of course, that gets into the money and everything that’s involved. But it’s also once you become a corporation, you’ve got to manage that image. And that is the situation that we’re in. I’m guessing some people who have been really, really schooled in this, because I mean, leadership is everywhere, right? I mean, from the time kids are like teenagers, even maybe younger, in our church, we’re training them to be leaders. But it does beg the question, and I’m sure people are wondering right now is if everything doesn’t rise or fall on leadership, and what does it rise or fall on? LANCE FORD 23:47 I believe it rises or falls on the headship of Jesus. And I believe that’s where we land on the problem of what’s happened in the church. That’s the other part of the metaphor for this book, The Atlas Factor was. I had written something one day, about three years ago on Facebook or X, it was Twitter then; we had the pretty little blue bird. But I just said something about leadership in the church being misaligned with the headship of Jesus, and the body. Had a buddy that reposted that and then his chiropractor made a comment. And he said, Yeah, that’s like subluxation with the C-1 and the C-2 vertebra in the body. Then he said something that really got my attention. He said, Yeah, when you have a problem with the Atlas vertebra, and the Axis vertebra, it misaligns the body with the head. And I was like, Whoa, that really got my attention because I’ve been playing around with this Atlas metaphor before. And little did I know, and you know, this is as a journalist and a researcher, then it sends me down into this wormhole. I ended up reading three or four books in chiropractic. Julie Roys 24:57 You sound like my husband. My husband would do that. Give me the Cliff Notes honey. LANCE FORD 25:02 My wife’s like land it, land it. Yeah, but it was fascinating Julie because he said C-1, the first vertebra is called the Atlas. So, in fact, this particular doctor had written a little book, a real tiny little pamphlet size book called, It Just Makes Sense. Well come to find out there’s a certain amount of chiropractors, it’s a small percentage of chiropractors that just practice, they call it upper cervical care. And so, they only focus on the two top vertebra, because they’re convinced that if you line those up, everything below is going to come in order and align. In fact, they’ve got some pretty large claims of incredible maladies that get healed and come into order when the body, the neurological system starts functioning like it should. In fact, my buddy that had posted this, his chiropractor, so my buddy has a very rare form of cancer. And I forget what it’s called, but it should not kill him. But he’s had it for several years. And so, he’s always having to watch his T counts and everything. And under Dr. Weller’s care, his numbers have totally come in order. And that’s been going on for about four or five years now. So, it’s really amazing. So, one of the quotes that he said, and I did quote it in Atlas, so that Atlas vertebra, that’s where the brain stem sits into. So, he’s talking about the relationship between the head and the body. And he says, there’s that extra something inside each and every one of us that gives life; the inborn, innate intelligence knows what to do and how to do it. The intelligence that came from our Creator travels in and through your nervous system, which is commonly referred to as the neurological system. Neuro logic or intelligence within the nerve, the neurological communication between the brain and the body through the brainstem is imperative for allowing the body the best ability to function at its optimum. We believe that the body does not need any assistance, just no interference in its functioning. When you apply that to what Paul said about the body of Christ, and the relationship to the head, which he really goes in depth in Ephesians 4, he mentioned the other places, but in Ephesians 4, which Ephesians. The whole book of Ephesians is scholars say this is the book for the church. And it’s not a book about leadership. Ephesians 4 is not text about leaders, it’s about the body, it’s a text, read to the body, corporately, it’s talking about the body when he says the apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher – that’s within the body. These are not professional positions. And I would say, and I know you would agree, Julie, that your house church, you guys already have at least one, you have multiple pastors there already. So, you don’t need some pro that comes in leveraging authority and power. They’re gifted. So, the body of Christ is already gifted in these functions. But the problem is, is when humans try to occupy the place of headship and playing Atlas, then it creates a disjointedness, between the Atlas vertebra and the rest of the body. And so, what happens is, we get paralyzed, we can’t move. We get all these maladies in these atrophy that sets in below the neck because somebody else has stepped in and cause misalignment with our true head Jesus. And so, I really believe that the first job of a church leader, or a pastor that wants to try to change is it’s kind of what Dr. Eddie Weller said is that we need to eliminate interference between Jesus in the body. And usually, it’s our system of leadership that’s causing the interference, and is bringing that paralysis and those maladies that go along the neckline. Julie Roys 28:54 That’s so interesting. As you’re saying this, I’m beginning to get an image in my head of a body trying to function with just the brain. Right? And the rest of the body being literally paralyzed or just limp and not able to move. And I think about that in the church because we have made these guys at the head who communicate truth to us. I mean, most of the people come into our churches right now, they don’t know how to read the scripture for themselves and listen to the Holy Spirit themselves. They need that pastor to interpret for them what’s going on, which is scary. I remember going to one of these, you know, video, Pastor churches, and I’m like, and it had a celebrity pastor who was in from, you know, states away, who was preaching to them, telling them what to do. And I thought to myself, that guy who was preaching, nothing he said was heretical; however, he was not explicating scripture right. He was making it say things it didn’t say, and it scared me because I thought, that guy anything he says will get swallowed by this mass of people, because they don’t know they are not equipped. They are not connected to the head. They’re connected to the pastor, right? Who really functions in a godlike way with so many of these people? And I think that’s why when you see one of these falls, you see, just huge disillusionment. You know, for a lot of us, it’s been hurtful. It’s been disillusioning. Yes. But not to that foundational level, because my pastor was never my God. He was always just a man. Right? That’s all he was. And so yeah, we’d have lost that idea that really, it’s a functioning body, and all the members have to be functioning for this thing to work. And the guy at the top is not the pastor. It’s Jesus Himself, which is a radical idea, the biblical idea. LANCE FORD 30:43 You know, the word radical and radish have the same root. Radical literally means root. So, it’s funny how that when you talk about people that are radicals, man, they’re so radical. That’s usually the people that have gone back to the roots of things that we call the radicals. It was like the hippies back in the 70s, they were reading Mother Earth News, you know, and they’re, you know, got their gardens out the backyard, and they’re doing all this stuff, you know, are they radical? No, they’re doing what people have done for thousands of years. So sometimes that’s the hint that the people that we call the radicals may just be the ones that have tapped back into something that’s at the root of our beginnings as the church. And so that’s one of the things that when you get to this misalignment of the body, the real job description of a pastor or if you believe in those FIFO gifts, the apostle, prophet, Pastor, shepherd, and evangelists and teacher, their job description, Paul says, is to equip or resource and train and supply the saints for the work of ministry. So, it’s not to do everything, it’s not to be the chief speaker to be the end all. Really your job there, when you wake up in the morning, I don’t care what your title is, if you’re on staff at a church, no matter what your rank is, first thing you wake up in the morning and think what I need to do is how can I best resource and equip and serve the people that are around me? So, during your day, you shouldn’t be telling people what to do, you should be asking people, how can I help you? How can I serve you? What do you need youth pastor? How can I help you today to fulfill your calling? But that’s not the way it is. I mean, it’s usually everybody’s here to serve my needs. That’s leadership. That’s the system. Julie Roys 32:37 I mean, we have a professional pastorate. So, we pay for you to do things for us. LANCE FORD 32:42 You’re a vendor of religious goods and services, and I’m a consumer. So, give it up. Julie Roys 32:48 Exactly. And that’s where I don’t put all the blame on the guy at the top. It’s what we’ve allowed as consumers. It’s what we’ve allowed as the body that is not doing what the Bereans did, and going back and saying, is what they’re teaching us right now, is this biblical, or is it not? LANCE FORD 33:03 One of the things I thought about is you look at iteration or a church says today, most people are biblically illiterate. We don’t expect them to read their Bibles. We don’t. I mean, that’s why we project every scripture on screen. We don’t expect people even to bring a Bible. When you and I were growing up. I mean, people were bringing a Bible to church. I grew up spent a lot of time in the Baptist Church. every other weekend, the whole family would load up and we go spend the weekend with my grandparents about an hour away. They were Nazarene. They were in a little Nazarene church. And so, I literally spent half my time in a Nazarene church. So, I got a lot of Nazarene in me. And that little church of about 60 people and 55 of them were my kinfolks. I mean, you talk about a pastor not having a chance. Stay in line buddy because the Browns and the Fords will kick you to the curb. Anyway, it was a sweet fellowship and all my great aunts and great uncles and everything, They had the little board on the side of the pulpit that told the attendance from the week before, it told the offering. And I’m not making this up, even had a place it said Bibles present, you know, which was always funny to me, because I’ve looked back, and I thought they were trying to make a point. And those folks knew their scriptures. I mean, they knew the Bible, and they may have been misapplying it, but they still knew the Scriptures. And we just don’t have that today. We really have dumbed people down. And that’s part of the entertainment and this all comes from the secret church evolvement but if you go into the prevailing church today, if you go anywhere on a Sunday morning, most of the churches especially of any size you walk in, you don’t even know what denomination you’re in because most of them are singing the same songs. And the style is the same you’re going to go into a dark room. The ceiling is going to be black. The stage is going to be well lit depending on how much money and resource they have. It may even have some smoke machines which I call that the Shekindof. Glory, by the way, Julie Roys 35:03 When I see the smoke machine, I am so over the top that I just I cannot I just cannot. And by the way, though, when you talked about Nazarene, this is going to warm the heart of Christine Jones, who’s one of our board members because she’s Nazarene. But I did Bible Quizzing. So, when I heard she was a Nazarene I’m like, Oh, dang! Oh, man! You know, and I am was pretty good Bible quizzer. LANCE FORD 35:27 I bet you were. Julie Roys 35:29 We went to Nationals a couple times. Our Bible Quizzing, my mom was our coach, but I’m telling you, I learned 100 you know, 150 verses every single year I did Bible Quizzing. I mean, that’s how I learned the scripture. But those Nazarenes they memorized the whole book. They memorized the whole thing. LANCE FORD 35:45 I had a niece that does the Bible Quizzing in the Nazarene church, and I don’t ever want to go toe to toe with her. Julie Roys 35:52 But here’s the thing. Like I know Christine to this day says when they say a passage, she’s going over the passage in her mind, because it’s still there, the memory is still there of that passage. And you can’t distort something that people know. But we’re in a situation where people don’t know it., and so it creates just this fertile ground for everything to be messed up, and it’s gotten really messed up. So, you’re talking about realignment, how do we realign? Like in this situation that we’re in, how can we realign because we’ve got some major, major vertebrae out of whack? LANCE FORD 36:24 So, you have to start off not with just looking at and saying, Well, yeah, I gotta choose a different way lady. No, you have to repent. This is an issue of repentance. Because we disobey Jesus and the word disobedient in many places. In fact, Paul uses it when he talks about your disobedience coming into a line. It means to, to hearken to not just to hear, but to listen and obey. We’ve disobeyed Jesus disobeyed Jesus, not only with our systems, but just some of those things that you mentioned, when you read the quote from the book earlier, even our what we call ourselves as leaders is disobedient to Jesus. Jesus could not have been more plain, don’t call yourself Father, don’t call yourself Teacher, don’t call yourself leader, because he says it causes you to lift yourself up above your brothers and sisters. Because he’s trying to create a peer type of a culture, a sibling culture. And this is the nomenclature that you see throughout the New Testament, co-laborer, coworker, fellow worker, is mentioned dozens of times those terms. You never see employee and boss. Because what happens is, that’s a power difference, right? It differentiates between the power, every time those words are mentioned, every time those terms and those rank-based titles are mentioned. So, the first thing a leader has to do is say I have to change the culture, I have to repent. And I have to admit this, and then I have to be willing to start changing the culture. So, I think the first thing that a leader has to do is then move into saying, I’m going to ditch the management systems. And I’m going to try to learn what it would look like if people on our team are able self-manage. And as I’m doing that, not only am I changing my titles, which that’s probably the first thing you need to do, because it will just freak everybody out. But what you do is you change your role. And so, you wake up in the morning and saying, I’m no longer going to act like I am chief, and everybody’s here to serve me. But I’m going to do what Jesus said, I’m gonna become a chief servant. I’m gonna out serve everybody here. And I’m gonna go back to the very thing that Paul said in Ephesians 4. I am going to work myself silly in helping the people around me to fulfill their calling. I’m going to do everything I can to resource them, to equip them, and just watch this rising tide lift all the boats around. So that’s the first moves. And I always say this is when you’re looking at moving from a centralized leadership to a decentralized leadership, you can’t just wipe everything out, because then it’s just chaos and anarchy. So, you have to replace the systems with other processes and agreements. And that’s one of the things I’ve tried to write a lot about, wrote about a lot book called The Starfish in the Spirit. And in this, try to give some processes in some systems and some agreements of how you can rebuild your system into working this way. Because it doesn’t just happen in a vacuum. It’s too enormous of a change to move into it. But it has to be biblical, because that’s where the safety and that’s where the joy is. And this doesn’t mean that everything’s going to be rainbows and unicorns. There’s still stress and hard things and difficulty. I mean, Paul talked about the anxiety he had in the churches, but a lot of that was him trying to straighten stuff like this out. Julie Roys 39:58 The book that I interviewed Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer on, Pivot, you know, is talking a lot about sort of similar things making this pivot from realizing you have a toxic culture. You guys are talking about it from the same idea, but a little different vantage points. And given, you know, he’s more of a theologian, you’re more of a boots on the ground kind of guy. But I think saying a lot of the same things. And one thing I wonder is that we’re often thinking about it in terms of like you said, we’ve got this church that needs to change. I was very interested in church planting in my 20s. And a lot of people would say that a lot of time, it takes way more energy to change an existing church than it does to grow a new one. And it’s just something I’ve been wondering, you know, out of these ashes, because what’s happening in the evangelical church right now, I mean, it is, it’s imploding, which I know is painful for everybody involved in you know, to see these kinds of implosions. But I’ve really been asking myself, Should we be putting energy into changing the existing church, or should we be saying, we just need to close some churches, we need to scrap this model? Because I mean, even so often, when you get rid of like the toxic guy at the top, it’s a toxic system throughout, it is so hard. You have so much inertia, that to change that church is so hard. So, I know you don’t get into this really in your book, but it’s something I’ve been wrestling with. And even wondering once you do start that new thing. How can we do it differently because this is what we’ve seen modeled? Julie Roys 40:02 What you’re touching on there is the whole wineskin issue that Jesus taught. You can’t put new wine in an old wineskin. But can you create a new wineskin for the old wine? Heard a lot of people talk about that. Which yeah, well, maybe you can, I think is very difficult for the reasons you said. Now, two out of the last three houses that my wife and I have lived in, we built ourselves. And when I say that, I mean, we built it ourselves. I didn’t contract it. Our hands, blood and sweat, and skin. And I just kind of grew up with that, my grandpa was a carpenter. So, I kind of grew up with that. LANCE FORD 41:31 We built one house. We didn’t do everything ourselves. But yeah, I thought, general contracting, how hard can that be? LANCE FORD 42:14 Oh yeah, you got that lesson, then, you found out. And you promise, I will never do this again, which I said I would never do it again after the first one. Julie Roys 42:22 Well, no, actually, I said, I learned so much by making so many stupid mistakes in that first one that I want to do it again, so that I can capitalize on the lessons learned. LANCE FORD 42:31 Now that’s good. And it is a fun process. And it was very cathartic. This one that we built was a smaller house. And it was very cathartic. But also, we’ve rehabbed houses. And I would say as hard as it is to build from the ground up, it’s easier than rehabbing a house. Julie Roys 42:47 Cuz you never know what you’re gonna get into. LANCE FORD 42:49 You don’t know what’s behind that wall, you know, and you think that you know, and you peel it back, and you just discover, oh, it’s deeper, and you’re taking it down to the studs, and you get down the studs and go, Oh, the termites were here before I was here, right? All kinds of stuff. So yeah, those issues come into place. I tell you, one of the things that we’ve seen a lot of success, and I say we because I do work with a few others. I’m a part of a team that we do help churches in consulting and coaching. we talk about terms of a parallel track, just trying smaller little projects, and seeing how they go. In fact, several of the largest churches, and we’ve worked with large churches that realize that they just cannot completely turn that thing around. So, what they do is they start investing in different types of church plants, or micro churches, or whatever. And I think their hearts are good and right in that. And so, I’ve got some friends that do lead large mega churches. And I think that they are, some of them have developed some leadership systems that are closest to what I would hope to see. And I think it’s probably about as close as they can get without just killing the thing. LANCE FORD 44:06 Our time is getting short. But there’s one term that I thought was so good when you’re talking about developing a culture of equality, and you talked about this term, I’ve never heard this this term before, but equa-potency, thank you. But yeah, explain what you mean by that, because I thought that was actually a pretty key component to what you’re talking about. LANCE FORD 44:30 What equa-potency basically, is kind of a culture of equals. When you talk about a quality in a leadership system, it freaks a lot of people out because immediately the pushback is somebody has to be in charge. The buck has to stop somewhere. You can’t have equality, everybody’s not equal. You can just look at him. Okay, so let’s start right there. And Paul talks about this in Romans 12. In fact, Romans 12:1-2 you know, we usually start out with be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind right? So that you can prove what is the good, perfect, pleasing will of God. And we usually stop there. And so, people usually read that verse and say, Oh, that’s the verse about not being worldly, you know, don’t drink, don’t chew, don’t run around with girls that do, right? And always blame a woman, right? That was the little saying growing up. But don’t stop there, keep reading the rest of the of the text, because then he’s really going into how gifts that the Lord pours out should be functioning. And so, one of the things that he says he talks about the different gifts, in fact, he talks about people that do have a gift of administration, or what we would call leadership. And he talks about, then he says, but do it with sobriety, be sober, and then he starts talking about don’t look on your own things and be selfish. And he starts going into this whole thing about different people have different measures for their giftings. So, in any room, if you have a sizable room, and you think about just outstanding, let’s say the great men or the great women that are great into gifting or whatever. And you and I, Julie may have a similar gifting. But we can just look like I’ve got a couple of friends that are mentors of mine. And I’m thinking about one in particular. He’s been an incredible mentor in my life. And he and I have similar gifts. Mine, I can’t even touch his abilities in some of this stuff. He is just far out. Well, Paul will call that he has a greater measure of faith. It’s not faith like we think about it all. Oh yeah, he’s confident and all that. No, it’s really the term there, really iterates it’s the ability to use that gift. And some people just have that, have a greater measure. And so, Paul warns them to treat the others as equals. And so, this particular mentor in my life, he’s always treated me that way. And in the first few years, we started working together, man, I mean, there was no way I could touch what he did. But he always encouraged me genuinely, not patronizing me. But really, he just thought you never know when what the Lord wants to say or do is going to come through Lance or Jill or Rob or Steve in the room, just because I’ve got the big platform, I’m speaking as him, I can use any of them. So that’s equa-potency. So, it’s potent. So, when you get a group of people together, and you have an equal atmosphere, not meaning that everybody has the same has equal gifts, but they have equal opportunity. And so that’s really what we’re saying. It’s a culture that everybody is treated as equals to have equal opportunity, even if they don’t have the equal faith in the giftings that they have. Does that make sense? Julie Roys 47:55 Absolutely it does. And as you’re talking about this, we do think of the people that that are incredibly gifted. And we have examples of that in scripture. But we also have probably the greatest leader, or one of the ones that we look to in the Old Testament was Moses, who couldn’t speak, had all sorts of failings. And yet God used him in amazing ways. Because he had that spiritual connection to God. He knew God, and he had a heart after God. And we have majored on the minors, right? We’ve made the gifting so important instead of the heart for God. And there’s so much in your book, we could discuss, and I would love to discuss, you get into how spiritual warfare, how that plays out in this practical steps. And so, I really encourage people, this is going to be our book for this month, for anybody who gives a donation of $30 or more, we’ll get you a copy of The Atlas Factor, just a phenomenal phenomenal book. So, if you want to do that, support our work here at The Roys report, but also get this incredible resource, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. And we can get this book in your hands. And I want to get this book as many hands as I can. Because I think it’s a paradigm shift is what you’re talking about. And you’ve been talking about it now for 11 years since you wrote your first one, Unleader. And I think there’s a lot of resistance. But the more and more we see the crash and burns, the more and more we’re going to have to say we’ve got to do it a different way. And so, I feel like you’re very much a prophetic voice when it comes to this issue. Just so grateful for it. So, Lance, thank you. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for speaking at RESTORE. Thank you for being on our board. Thanks for writing this book, The Atlas Factor. Really awesome. Julie Roys 48:13 Always a joy, Julie, thank you. Julie Roys 49:41 Well, again, that was Lance Ford, an experienced church planter, pastor, consultant, and author of The Atlas Factor, Shifting Leadership Onto the Shoulders of Jesus. And as we mentioned, this book releases this month, and we’re actually giving away copies of The Atlas Factor to anyone who gives a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report this month. Again, we don’t have any big donors or advertisers almost all the funding for The Roys Report comes from you, the people who care about exposing abuse and corruption in the church and caring for abuse victims. So, if you can please go to JJULIEROYS.COM/DONATE and give what you’re able to this ministry. And when you give, we’ll gladly send you a copy of The Atlas Factor. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me. Hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

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Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 17, 2024 60:54

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Check out Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's newsletterConsider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, The Jesus Creed.Follow him on Twitter: @scotmcknightRead Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnightWomen in MinistryAn accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.Keeping Names AuthenticOne of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience."We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnightTimestamped summary of this episode:00:00:02 - Introduction,Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,Familiarity with the text can sometimes00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.00:35:25 - The Power With,Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.00:36:53 - Power For,Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.00:53:38 - Call to Action,Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.00:54:48 - TovLori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.00:56:03 - Conclusion,Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.Appreciate the role of cultural context and precise translation in interpreting the Bible effectively.Comprehend the various power dynamics at play within the church and their implications.Recognize signs of spiritual abuse, ensuring adequate support for survivors.Grasp the crucial need for responsible leadership and the ethical use of power.Discover the valuable contributions of female scholars and survivors in the ministry.Realize the importance of context and accurate translation in unlocking the true meaning of biblical passages.Uncover diversities in church power dynamics and their impacts on members.Identify the nature of spiritual abuse and the ways to help survivors heal.Understand the significance of virtuous leadership and the fair exercise of power for communal benefit.Shed light on the often-overlooked perspectives of women scholars and abuse survivors in ministry.https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.comhttps://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifferencehttps://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference/https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/https://www.twitter.com/@awodpodhttps://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifferencehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/

Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 17, 2024 60:54

The Corrupting of American Evangelicalism

bible christians revelation modern rome new testament babylon decoding ancient wisdom mcknight titled scot mcknight will wright scott mcknight

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 11, 2023 60:15

Guest Bios Show Transcript How did loving your enemies—a command of Jesus—suddenly become a sign that you're “woke”? And why is “owning the libs” now the answer to “What would Jesus do?” On this edition of The Roys Report, bestselling author and journalist Tim Alberta joins host Julie Roys to explore a disturbing phenomenon in American evangelicalism. Though once evangelicals understood that the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of man were separate, now the two are being combined into an unholy mix. And sadly, for millions of conservative Christians, America is their kingdom—and proper adherence to their political ideology is their litmus test for Christian orthodoxy! On this podcast, you'll hear Julie's compelling conversation with Tim, exploring how evangelicals got into this mess—and if, and how, we can get ourselves out. Yet Tim doesn't speak as an outside critic passing judgment, but as a practicing Christian and the son of an evangelical pastor. Tim spent years sifting through the wreckage of American evangelicalism, interviewing pastors, evangelical/political activists, congregants, and scholars. The result is his new book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory, which tells story after illuminating story of major players and institutions within the evangelical movement that have succumbed to political idolatry. One example is Liberty University, founded in 1971 by Jerry Falwell Sr. Recent headlines have exposed how Senior's now-disgraced son, Jerry Falwell, Jr., made Liberty into a far-right, culture warring, money-making powerhouse. But is this mixing of the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man a corruption of Senior's vision—or, is it the culmination of it? And what does it say that everyone—the administration, board, and Liberty supporters—were all fine with it, as long as the money was coming in? Tim also shares stunning admissions he got during one-on-one interviews with major evangelical/political figures, like Robert Jeffress and Ralph Reed. In private, these men confessed that they know mixing political advocacy with the gospel is misleading and wrong. Yet, as Tim documents, these men keep doing it! Yet Tim also offers stories of hope—like his chapter on Rev. Dr. John Dickson, who teaches at the flagship evangelical school, Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill. In it, Tim explains why Dickson has become a missionary to America—and how Christians can lose the culture wars yet live joyfully and winsomely among unbelievers. Tim's book also includes a chapter on exposing abuse and corruption, featuring Rachel Denhollander's work and our work at The Roys Report. On the podcast, we discuss why our reporting is so important and why this chapter is Tim's mother's favorite! This is such an important podcast for Christians wanting to remain true to their calling to worship God first and foremost, rather than succumb to political idolatry. Guests Tim Alberta Tim Alberta is a staff writer for The Atlantic and has written for dozens of other publications, including the Wall Street Journal and National Review. He is the author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism and the New York Times bestseller American Carnage: On the Front Lines of the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump. He lives in southeast Michigan with his wife and three sons. Show Transcript SPEAKERS TIM ALBERTA, Julie Roys Julie Roys 00:04 How did loving your enemies, a command of Jesus, suddenly become a sign that you're woke? And why is owning the libs now the answer to what would Jesus do? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys and joining me on this podcast is New York Times bestselling author Tim Alberta, whose latest book explores what happened to American evangelicalism. Decades ago, Americans viewed evangelicalism favorably. In 1976, author and historian Gary Wills called evangelicalism, the major religious force in America, both in numbers and an impact. And leading evangelical thinkers claimed that evangelicalism could no longer be regarded as reactionary but was vigorously and sometimes creatively speaking to the needs of the contemporary world. Fast forward to today and evangelicalism has become synonymous with Donald Trump, a thrice married vulgar opportunist who said he doesn't need to repent or ask for forgiveness. A recent poll by Pew Research found that the only religious group that views evangelicals favorably are evangelicals. And as Tim Alberta notes in his book in 1991 90% of Americans identified as Christians, but today, only 63% do. What happened to this once vibrant movement? And can it be saved, or has it passed beyond the point of no return? Un his new book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory. Tim Alberta does a masterful job of exploring these questions, but he doesn't do it as an outside critic passing judgment. But as a practicing Christian and the son of an evangelical pastor. I found Tim's book eye opening on many levels, and I'm so excited to share this interview with you. Julie Roys 01:47 But before I do, I want to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience, Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities, and strong financial aid. Plus, you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity, to check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Julie Roys 02:51 Well, again, joining me is Tim Alberta, a staff writer for The Atlantic and the former chief political correspondent for Politico. Tim also is the author of The New York Times best seller American Carnage on the Frontlines of the Republican Civil War, and the Rise of President Trump. And his latest book, The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory, explores American evangelicals in an age of extremism. So, Tim, welcome. It is just such a pleasure to be with you again. TIM ALBERTA 03:16 Yes, Julie, it is. It's great to catch up with you and come sort of full circle from where we were a couple of years ago talking about all of this. Julie Roys 03:24 That's right. We spent a couple of well, more than a couple of hours. I think it was supposed to be like maybe an hour and a half, and we got so into our discussion. I think we closed down one coffee shop and went to another. TIM ALBERTA 03:35 We did. I hijacked your whole day. Julie Roys 03:38 Oh, it was fantastic. And so, encouraging to me, but always fun to talk to a fellow journalist with similar convictions. And I was excited about this book when we had our discussion. I'm so honored, I have to say, you know, to get the galley of the book, and I figured because we spent so much time that I'd be in it, but you know, just what you wrote, and the way that you captured some things just so honored to be featured in a chapter with Rachel den Hollander. So, thank you so much for that. I just really appreciate it. TIM ALBERTA 04:07 I should tell you that is my mother's favorite chapter of the book. Oh, for what it's worth, because she's big into strong feminine Christian leadership. And so, she was particularly smitten with you and with Rachel. So, I thought you should know that. Julie Roys 04:21 Oh, wow. Well, I'm honored. I really am. And I should mention that we are offering your book as a premium to anybody who gives $50 or more to The Roys Report in this month. Again, this is just a way that you're able to support the work that we do, but also get this fantastic book. Just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE if you're able to help us out and continue the work that we do, and also get what could be a great Christmas present for somebody or for yourself. So anyway, encourage you to do that. Well, Tim, as I mentioned in the open, you're not writing this book as sort of an outsider critiquing evangelicalism. You grew up evangelical, your dad was an evangelical pastor. And oddly enough, it was at your dad's funeral in 2019, that something sort of awakened you to the severity of what's happening right now within evangelicalism. Tell us a bit about that story. TIM ALBERTA 05:17 Yeah, so my dad, Reverend Richard Alberta, was an amazing, amazing guy. We were very close. And he had a pretty crazy come to Jesus story himself where he was actually kind of a hotshot New York finance guy. And my mom was kind of a hotshot, young journalist with ABC Radio. They lived in New York and my dad, despite having all of this worldly material success, just felt this emptiness. And he was an atheist. He grew up in an unbelieving home. And he, one day stumbled into this church in the Hudson Valley, and heard the gospel and he gave his life to Christ. And it was already a pretty dramatic conversion because he became completely unrecognizable to people around him, including my mom, who was not yet a Christian. Everybody who knew him just thought he was sort of losing it. Suddenly, he's waking up at four in the morning to read his Bible and meditate in prayer for hours. And they're all like, what is this guy doing? And then pretty soon after that, he feels the Lord calling him to ministry. And now they all think he's like certifiable, right? You know, but he follows the Lord's calling. And, you know, he and my mom who became a Christian, they sell all the possessions so he can go to seminary, and they basically they give up this pretty lavish lifestyle they'd had. And for the next like, 20 years, they just work in small churches and live on food stamps and serve the Lord that way. And then when I come along, some years later, we eventually settle in Brighton, which is a suburb of Detroit. And my dad builds this kind of small startup church there into kind of a mega church. And that was my home. It was my community. It was my whole life, really. My mom was on the staff there at the church as well. It was called Cornerstone Evangelical Presbyterian Church. I was raised physically, literally, inside of that church. TIM ALBERTA 07:11 And so, my dad dies a few years back. And when I came back to the church for the funeral, because of the work I've done in politics, and because I had just recently written this book about Trumpism and his takeover of the Republican Party, I was kind of in the crosshairs of right-wing media at that time, because of the book. And so, at the funeral or at the wake during the visitation, I had a bunch of people at the church kind of confronting me and wanting to argue about politics and about Trump and asking me if I was still a Christian and how I could be criticizing him this way. And it was pretty ugly. And as you said, sort of a wakeup call. Julie Roys 07:52 Yeah. And it is something isn't it when you don't support these people that certain evangelicalism believe you have to your, you know, I've got people praying for my salvation, because I've taken on John MacArthur, you know, It's craziness. But there is this tribalism now, within evangelicalism, and it's probably at its very worst when it comes to former President Trump and what he typified. It's interesting to me, you know, as I look at the evangelical movement, you know, I was a card-carrying conservative right? Before Trump came along, and then something really happened. And I feel like I was going back and reading a little bit of Chuck Colson's, Kingdoms in Conflict. Do you remember that book? TIM ALBERTA 08:34 I do. Yeah. Julie Roys 08:35 I mean, he was pretty even handed. I mean, he's very clear in there that being in the kingdom of heaven means it's not about ruling others, it's about being under God's rule. And yet something has tripped, where we're not saying that anymore. We're really become about this whole Dominionism. And he talks about the cultural mandate and things like that, but it's from a very, very different perspective. So here we are dealing with all of this Christian nationalism, and according to your book, a lot of this began, and it's funny because now, Lynchburg Virginia has become synonymous with the Falwell's and with Liberty University. But I've got to say, growing up in the 80s, you know, I knew about the Moral Majority, and some of that, but it just wasn't that big to me. And yet it has grown and grown, and I guess I wasn't even aware of the influence it had. But talk about how a lot of this has its roots really there, in Lynchburg, Virginia, and with what Jerry Falwell Senior. started in, like the late 70s, early 80s. TIM ALBERTA 09:42 Sure, in the context of the American church experience, it is Lynchburg, Virginia. It is the mid-1970s. And it is Jerry Falwell Senior who was a brilliant businessman who, you know, this guy could sell anyone on anything, and he was kind of a master entrepreneur, also a master manipulator. And what Falwell Senior. effectively did, he had already built out Thomas Road Baptist Church into a massive congregation. And then he had tapped into the relatively new medium of television to broadcast his sermons around the country. At one point, he became the single most telecasted program in the entire country. And so, he's reaching millions of people and he's raising a lot of money. This is pretty cutting-edge stuff at the time, but he's building out a mailing list with like more than 10 million names on it, and they are raking in money. So, then he already has his church. But Falwell, Senior is really almost the early archetype of the Christian nationalist. He believes that sort of fighting for God and fighting for America is one in the same and that if America falls, then almost God's kingdom on earth will fall. And so he recognizes that he needs something more than a church; that he needs kind of a cultural stronghold. So, he does two things. First, he takes this little Baptist College Lynchburg Baptist College, and at the time of the bicentennial in 1976, he rebrands it to Liberty University, and he changes the colors from green and gold to red, white, and blue. And basically, they do this whole patriotic rebranding exercise, which is aimed at tapping into not only patriotism in the church, but also tapping into the percolating low simmering at the time, fear in the church and grievance in the church. This sense that, you know, abortion is now legal. Pornography is prevalent, the drug culture is out of control. Prayer is banned in public schools. Secularism is on the march and they're coming for us like they are coming for Christianity in America. And so, Jerry Falwell turns Liberty University into this cause, and then piggybacks onto that with this new organization, The Moral Majority. So suddenly, he's got these three cogs. And he builds out this machine, Falwell Senior does, and it is incredibly effective. They mobilize 10s of millions of voters and sort of bring them under this banner of not just, you know, Christianity, not just following Jesus, but a very particular type of Christianity, a sort of subculture of a subculture. And in many ways, those seeds planted by Falwell 50 years ago, we are harvesting them now. And what we are dealing with, you know, the fracturing of the modern evangelical movement, I think you can trace it directly back to that period. Julie Roys 12:36 It's so interesting, because I think when you talk about Jerry Falwell Senior, and I've talked to a lot of people from Liberty, I've done a lot of reporting about Liberty. And a lot of folks look very wistfully back to the early days, and these are good people, you know, I've talked extensively to them. They're really good people, sincere believers. They look at what's happened to Liberty, and they're like, this isn't Senior. Like Senior loved the Lord and he really was sincere in his walk with the Lord and Junior just was like, we don't know how Junior happened, right? I mean, that's how they often talk about it. I'm going to have you come back to that, because I think what you present is a very, very different picture and honestly, one that I've begun to suspect myself. But let's talk about what happens with you know, Senior dies pretty abruptly right of a heart attack. And then Jerry Falwell, Junior, who is the lawyer, right? He takes over not Jonathan Falwell, who's the pastor, much more of the spiritual leader, but Jerry Falwell, Junior takes over. Very clearly, I'm not a spiritual leader. I mean, he really assued that whole entire title. But when he takes over, despite all the success that his dad had, the school was on the brink of bankruptcy at this point, right? And he kind of turns it around. 13:57 So, Falwell, Junior. is the yes, the UVA trained lawyer, businessman, real estate developer, who is a smart guy. He knows business. And he had really kept the church and organized religion at arm's length. His younger brother Jonathan was the preacher in the family. But Jerry Junior, he'd gone to Liberty for his undergraduate studies. And he says that, you know, he believes in the teachings of Jesus but rejects a lot of the other stuff that comes with it, including Liberty itself. Jerry Junior never wanted to really be a part of Liberty. And suddenly as he's working in the private sector, the school is about to go under. Jerry Senior has really badly mismanaged the finances and he tells his son that basically the school is on the brink of insolvency. And so, Jerry Junior kind of reluctantly comes aboard and he helps to stabilize everything, and he makes a lot of drastic cuts to the different programs and kind of rejiggers the whole balance sheet operation. And he saves Liberty in a lot of ways that, you know, his father gave him credit for that. And it's interesting though, Julie, that when Jerry Falwell senior dies, it's not an accident that Jerry Junior. takes over. That was the plan of succession. It's notable that here is Jerry Falwell senior, who is both businessman and culture warrior, but also a preacher. And he's got these two sons that exemplify one of each, right? He's got the son who's a preacher. And he's got the other son who's the kind of culture warrior businessman. And he appoints the latter to take over Liberty after he's gone. And that in and of itself, I think, speaks volumes. And then more to the point, Jerry Junior, as you said, he comes in and he tells anybody who will listen, look, I'm not a religious leader, I'm not here charged with the spiritual well-being of this school. I'm here to turn us into a powerhouse, I'm here to turn us into a highly profitable, highly influential organization that can sort of, you know, push back against the forces of secularism in the left in this country. But he doesn't, to his credit, I suppose. Falwell Junior, he doesn't pretend that he's something that he's not. And the irony of it all, Julie is that everybody was fine with it. They were fine with it. Right? They were, as you know, when the money was coming in, and the buildings were going up at a rapid clip, and the endowment was bulging, everybody was fine with it. Because he's Jerry Senior's namesake, and he's a Falwell, and the school is doing great. Clearly God is blessing this project. So, what's not to like? Julie Roys 16:47 Well, and you say everyone was fine with it. And it's true on a public face, everyone was fine with it. I will say I started hearing from a lot of people who weren't fine with it from I mean, obviously the Jane DOE's and now we know about who were victims of sexual assault, and their cases got just horribly mismanaged. In fact, not even reported. And you know, now we have the Department of Education looking into how badly Liberty bungled these cases and violated Title Nine mandates, and they could face like a 30 some million dollar fine, which could be one of the largest ever. So, this was percolating under the surface, but nobody knew about it at the time. And I also talked to a lot of professors who were like, the way this place is being run is abysmal. There's nothing Christian about it. The way the administration handles things, there's nothing Christian about it. And we know too, from some of the people you interviewed, it was less like a religious institution and more like a mafia like a mob boss. Like Jerry turned into I think Jerry is very, he's very likable when you meet him. I mean, obviously very socially gifted, even though he's an introvert. He seems like this kind of your good old boy that, you know, everybody likes. But he began to become very controlling, and lock that place down where Jerry ruled with really an iron fist. And by the time some of the stuff started coming out about him, that place I mean, am I right, that it was a lot less like a Christian institution a lot more like the organized crime syndicate? TIM ALBERTA 18:24 Yeah, well, and listen like this is so Julie. It's funny, because obviously, you and I are in the same line of work. We're coming at this from pretty similar worldviews, and we're having similar conversations, with some of the same people. And you're exactly right when they're using the term family business. You know, Liberty is a family business. They're not just talking about like the Falwell family. There's, you know, the implication there is like very clearly that there is almost a mafioso-esque quality to, you don't cross the Falwell's, the power is concentrated in a few hands here. If you get a seat at the table, you are just lucky to be there and you nod and you know, at one point, I think I make sort of an offhand smart aleck comparison to like the North Korean military where, you know, you stand and salute the dear leader and don't dare step out of line. And of course, that's tragic on a number of levels, one of them being that Liberty has been filled over the years with really good and godly students and good and godly professors who are there for the right reasons. Some of these professors who started to really see the rot from the inside., they chose to stick around because on the one hand, they could see the success around them. The kind of observable material success that you know that the campus is absolutely stunning. Maybe God is doing something really marvelous here and I just have to kind of see my way through this part of it. But I also think that there's a level of devotion, and a feeling for some of these people that they wanted to help right the ship, that they wanted to be a part of the solution. And obviously, those are some of the characters I talk to in the book who now have finally gotten to a breaking point where they say, you know what? I just can't do it anymore. And not only can I not do it anymore, but the world needs to know, the whistle needs to be blown here that like this is not okay. Julie Roys 20:21 What does it say about evangelicalism, Tim, that when the money was coming in, and the money still is coming in, that everybody was okay with how godless this place was? And anybody that was in administration knew and saw it. The Board, who it's astounding to me that when Jerry Falwell Junior, got embroiled in this big sex scandal, and he gets fired, that Jerry Prevo takes over. And we think that that is a change of the guard. This was the man who was the chairman of the board the whole time that Jerry was doing all of this stuff. It's shocking to me, but yet I see it so much in so many different Christian organizations. And so, what is it about us that we're okay with these things, with really what is just absolute rampant hypocrisy? TIM ALBERTA 21:15 I'm afraid that in many ways, we're actually worse than some of those secular institutions. Because of this idea of the prosperity gospel, it's almost become like this proper noun. And so, people feel like well, those are those people are crazy. I'm not one of them, I'm not a part of that, right? But the idea inherent to the prosperity gospel, right is that, well, if you give to the Lord, and if you serve the Lord, if you follow the Lord, then you will be blessed. But that is so conveniently and so easily reverse engineered by a lot of Christians, either at a conscious or at a subconscious level, where when you see any sort of material success around you, you then say, well, clearly, I'm blessed. Clearly, the Lord is blessing this project. And that creates a kind of a permission structure, I think, for a lot of us to then turn a blind eye to things that are very obviously wrong, or kind of downplay things that you otherwise would never downplay. And whether that's an individual church congregation, whether that's a big college campus, whether it's the President of the United States, this can manifest in a lot of different ways. It's so much based on that kind of material thinking that I think we are particularly vulnerable, particularly susceptible to it here in the American church. I think the saddest part about it is that many of us just don't see it, or maybe don't want to see it. I don't know. Julie Roys 22:44 Your book has a stunning quote, stunning quote by a former professor, Dr. Aaron Warner. And he says, and I quote, Jerry, Senior, was always a bit of a scoundrel, and Jerry Junior, perfected the art of using fear and hatred as a growth strategy. Christianity happens to be the thing that they used to build a multibillion-dollar institution. It could have been anything else. It could have been moonshine, but they chose Christianity. And it's gained them a lot of power and a lot of money; the two things these people truly worship. You talked to a lot of people, interviewed a lot of people at Liberty. Is that characterization fair? Or do you think it's a little too harsh? TIM ALBERTA 23:23 It's harsh, that's for sure. It might contain some traces of hyperbole. But I will say this, Aaron Werner is another guy who knows that institution very well. Went there as an undergraduate, has deep longstanding ties to Liberty And the stories he tells from the inside are stunning. One of the other quotes, actually, I thought it might be the one that you're going to read because it kind of runs right along in parallel to that one is from a current professor. Now, at the time of this recording, he's a current professor. My sense is that when the book releases and when this gets back to the administration that he could be dismissed and he's expecting that that will happen. But his name is Nick Olsen, and he's an English professor, very popular English professor there. Brilliant, godly young guy. And he's a legacy at Liberty. His dad was one of the first students at Liberty and a contemporary of Falwell Senior. And Nick has sort of agonized in recent years with this inheritance at Liberty and everything that he's seen and struggled with there. And he says to me, this is not quite verbatim, but he says this to me in the final chapter of the book, he says, Jerry Junior, thought that he was fulfilling his father's vision by assuing spiritual stuff and by building out this massive multibillion dollar like culture warring Republican institution. And he says, and it is heartbreaking, because that's exactly what he's done, and he did fulfill Jerry Senior's vision. And I think that piece of it, Julie is not hyperbole. I think that when you spend enough time digging through the archives and talking to people who were there in the room where it happened, so to speak, it becomes pretty self-evident. And by the way, you know, you mentioned earlier that there are people who will say, Yeah, but you know, Jerry Senior, he really loved the Lord. Yeah, well, these things aren't mutually exclusive. I mean, I'm not suggesting that he didn't love the Lord. But I'm suggesting that like many people who love the Lord, he got his priorities out of whack. And by the way, we are all susceptible to this. But it's very hard to evaluate the history of Liberty University, the decisions made there, the structure of the place and the personnel and how they've treated people and what the benchmarks have been. It's very hard to assess all of that and reach any other conclusion than the one that Nick Olsen reaches at the end of the book. Julie Roys 25:41 And yet Liberty continues to be the largest Christian university in the country. It still has this dominance, there's still a lot of people that I know sending their kids there. And it's heartbreaking to me. I mean, I just wonder at what point do we say enough, and we stand up to this? And I'm glad that people are starting to speak out. But sometimes I wonder if it's too little too late, when we have just these juggernaut organizations and it really has been a marrying of two kingdoms that should be in conflict, and we're trying to say that they can be married together the kingdom of this world, the kingdom, the political realm, and the kingdom of Christ. And Jesus never became a political leader. It's stunning to me some of these quotes that are in your book, that are just like you expect a lightning to fall out of the sky, the way that scripture and Jesus are being misrepresented. It's just so awful. Julie Roys 26:37 In your first section, though, I have to say there's always some redeeming thing in each section, which I'm like, Thank You, Lord. It's like a palate cleanser in a lot of just awful stuff. But you have this beautiful chapter. And it's on a guy, John Dixon, who I actually got to know in my reporting on Ravi Zacharias, because John used to be a speaker for Ravi Zacharias International Ministries. And he was one of those who, you know, pretty early in the game as things were starting to come out, recognized that there were some lies being told by the institution he had been a part of, and he quickly made a break, and he boldly took a stand. I mean, I really respected him for that, that he didn't seem to have this Oh, fear of, if I say something, what's going to happen to me? I mean, he just said what was right, and what was what was true. And now he's at Wheaton College, which is right in my backyard. And what I love is that he's so joyfully on the losing team. You know, we've got all of these people, all these Christians out there telling us we have to be on the winning team, we got to take America back. And here's John Dixon saying, No, we're on the losing team right now. I mean, eventually, when Christ comes back, we'll be you know, he will set things right, and we'll be on the winning team. But for now, we're kind of on the losing team. And it's okay, people. So, talk about John and what we can learn from him and his example, because again, he's from Australia, which is probably about 10 or 15 years ahead of us in sort of this post Christian era that, you know, is beginning to happen here as well. Julie Roys 28:16 And that is so tough for us. I mean, it's not tough for Chinese Christians to get this, right? I mean they get it right away. Because to be a believer means you have to get rid of everything, you can't hold on to anything, you're gonna lose all your power, all your position. But I think we've been, actually it's the curse of being prosperous. And being in a country where Christians have had the majority and where it actually was a plus, probably for my parents to be believers. I think it won't be for my children. But maybe that'll be a good thing. And maybe that's precisely what the church needs. We already think we're being persecuted, which is funny. We really aren't. But we may see it. And right now, I think most of the persecution we're getting is because of what you said that we're not because we're so holy, but because we're actually worse than the world in so many different ways. And we deserve it. TIM ALBERTA 28:16 John is really one of my favorite people I've met in all of the journeys that I was on, and one of my favorite characters in the book for exactly the reasons that you mentioned there. And the fact that he is not an American is, I think, a big part of his perspective, right? But I think also, there's something deeper embedded in the American psyche, about winning, about the need to dominate. I have a funny quote somewhere else in the book from somebody who had spent years living and studying and teaching in Canada, who talks about how Canadians just want fourth place, and then when they get the bronze, they're thrilled. And in America, if you don't get the gold, you're a total loser, right? And so, there's something, you know, about the American Christian experience that's so different. And so, John, one of my favorite scenes in all of this reporting that I did was, we're sitting in the cafeteria there at Wheaton College, surrounded by the flags of the world all around us in the cafeteria. And I say, Why did you come here? Like, really? Why did you come here? And he says, like, this is my mission field now, like the US is my mission field because of this, this stuff. Everything you and I are discussing right now. He said this stuff is like so toxic and so unhealthy. And the church is caught in this terrible pattern. That, by the way, is not new. Right? You go back to Constantine, there has been this obsession with worldly power this inclination to merge two kingdoms into one. So, what we're living through here is not new, in a lot of ways. And I think John is so brilliant in kind of illuminating the appropriate Christian perspective here, which is to say that if you care so much about winning and losing, then the good news is you've already won, right? The tomb is empty, Jesus conquered death, and you believe in him. So therefore, you're already a part of the kingdom. But this place, which is meant to be ephemeral, and unimportant ultimately, and just, you know, a step among the stairs, that if your identity here is wrapped up in winning and losing, then you can't really have your identity there. And he says, ultimately, you know, we're the death and resurrection people. Like losing, and losing well, is a part of the Christian experience. TIM ALBERTA 31:24 John Dixon talks about how there's sort of this inverse relationship historically, between the amount of cultural and social and political power held by Christians in a society and the health of Christianity in that society, right? In other words, when you hold the commanding heights, the Christian influence it actually tends to be pretty weak and pretty corrupted and pretty compromised. When you are at the margins and when you are truly countercultural, the witness thrives. And we've seen that throughout history. Another favorite character of mine in the book, Brian Zahnd, who's the pastor of a church out in Missouri, he talks about how difficult it is for American Christians to really appreciate how the Bible is written from the perspective of the underdog, right? The Hebrew slaves fleeing Egypt, and the first century Christians living under a brutal Roman occupation. Like they had no power, they had no influence. And yet they were so joyful, and they were so content because they had their kingdom, right? And it does give me unease even in my own personal life, just the things I enjoy the materials, the prosperity, the comforts; can I fully appreciate the baby born in a manger? can I fully identify with the vagrant preacher from the ghettos of Nazareth? You know, it's a hard thing. Julie Roys 32:42 And here's the reality; that message, which is Christ's message really doesn't sell well in America. Having your best life now sells in America. And what we're seeing right now, and this, you know, brings me to the second section in your book dealing with power, which again, we've got to take back, America, has become sort of the mantra that we're hearing from so many of these, you know, political rights. And it has just morphed into something where, and again, I said at the outset, I used to be very much politically engaged with the conservative movement. I am not anymore because I can't stomach it and what it's become. I felt like we were being salt. But now it's about dominating and doing it by any means possible, where we just get rid of our morality. And I was always brought up to believe and I think this is what Scripture teaches, that the means is as important as the end. And so, if we achieve a righteous end through an unrighteous means, then we've lost. We've completely lost because we have given up what makes us unique, and what makes us God honoring for something that we're saying is a God honoring, you know end. But again, this is what has happened in our country. And, and what's interesting in this section that just captured my imagination. I mean, I've wondered this, like, you take a Robert Jeffress, right? This guy's not dumb. He's a smart Southern Baptist preacher, clearly a savvy guy. He has built this mega church, but the things that came out of his mouth, especially when Trump was in power, but it's still there. The things that come out of his mouth, and I think, he's got to know that this is not in line with the Gospels. He's got to see this. And yet, publicly, you wouldn't hear that. But when you met with him privately, you began to hear some doubt in there and allowing you to see a little bit of vulnerability, although it didn't seem to last all that long. But talk about that, because I'm not sensing much doubt in the masses that follow these men. But when you get them one on one, tell me what you see. TIM ALBERTA 34:50 And it's not just Robert Jeffress, Greg Locke, Greg Locke, Ralph Reed. Yeah, yeah, a lot of these guys. It's the pastor who in my hometown, grew his church tenfold by basically turning Sunday morning worship services into Fox news segments. And giving a Nazi salute to Gretchen Whitmer from his pulpit. I mean, but then you get them one on one. And you press them a little bit. I mean, you know, politely, respectfully, but you press them. Suddenly, they not only back off a little bit, but they do a little bit of like winking and nodding at you to basically say, like, you're right, I'm definitely putting on a bit of a song and dance here for the masses. But I think that they will ultimately justify it by saying, Well, yeah, but look at all these people who are coming in and look at the opportunity, we have to reach them now with the gospel? So, you know, those ends really do justify the means. I think the problem with that, as you hinted it, is but look, I mean, there's a lot of problems with it. You know, Mark 8:36 is not a rhetorical question, right? Like, what does it profit a man to gain the whole world yet forfeit his soul? But I think for some of these people, some of these leaders, the thing that really grates at me and I know it grates at you, Julie, is like, they're the shepherds, they're the ones who are supposed to know better, because a lot of their flock, you know, and I'm not being condescending or patronizing when I say this, they don't necessarily know better, they are the sheep, right? They need to be shepherded. And instead of shepherding, a lot of these people have just themselves become wolves. And they become wolves for what? So that you can have a seat at the table? So that you can get on Fox News? So that you can raise some money? So that for what ultimately? You're so right, when you press them on it almost to a person, they will acknowledge at some level that what they're doing is kind of gross, and kind of anti-biblical, and then they just keep on doing it. Julie Roys 36:46 So, speak to the person who is listening. And we probably don't have a ton of these. But there may be some who are listening, who have bought this hook, line, and sinker that we do need to take America back. And Franklin Graham told us it's all for the Supreme Court justices, and we got the Supreme Court justices and Roe v. Wade was just overturned and, you know, look at what was accomplished. So, you know, politics is a dirty business, Tim. I mean, come on, if we're gonna win in politics, which, you know, we're talking about babies here, babies are being slaughtered left and right. And then, you know, some of these people would allow a baby to be born alive and kill it. You know, that's who these people are. So, I mean, come on. This is the world we live in, and we've got to fight the way that the world fights. What do you say? TIM ALBERTA 37:35 I'd say a couple of things. I think you can go round and round about Roe v. Wade, and about Trump and about Supreme Court justices. But be careful what you wish for in this space. Because the fact of the matter is that Roe v Wade fell, and the total number of abortions in this country went up. I live in Michigan, where prior to Roe v Wade falling, there were pretty tight abortion restrictions in Michigan. Now, it is the wild west. It is some of the most liberalized abortion laws in the country. And that is true in seven or eight other states that have had ballot initiatives passed since Roe v. Wade, dramatically liberalizing abortion laws, and it's going to happen in a number of other states next year. So, let's be really clear eyed and fact based when we talk about what our political involvement does and what it doesn't do. At the end of the day, if you want to win hearts and minds to stop the scourge of abortion, if you are a Christian, and you view this as your great crusade, then is voting for a candidate or putting a bumper sticker on your car, is that the way to win those hearts and minds? Because the fact is, if American evangelicals had put a fraction of the energy into the social side of abortion, of doing the hard work in the clinics, and helping the single mothers and doing the foster care that is needed to address this at its root, if they had been willing to do that over the last 50 years, my guess is that public opinion would be dramatically different as it pertains to abortion. And we wouldn't even be talking about Roe v. Wade, because the number of abortions would be so low in this country that it wouldn't even register. But we've sort of self-selected into this alternate universe where politicians are our savior, and that politics is the mechanism by which we right the wrongs in this country. And I'm sorry, but if you are citizens of another kingdom?, then you can't possibly believe that. You can't possibly believe that Donald Trump or that any other politician is the person who's going to ultimately right these great moral wrongs. But unfortunately, I think that's the trap we've fallen into. Julie Roys 39:51 You know, I used to be very involved in the prolife movement. I will say, almost all of the people that I knew when I was involved in the pro-life movement, were actually involved in reaching out to single moms and caring for them and caring for their unborn children. But I think what we've forgotten so much is that politics is downstream of culture. So, if you're losing the culture, which we clearly are to change the politics, if you've got a kid that's rebellious, a teenager who's rebellious in your home, locking down all the windows and the doors in your house, that's not going to keep your kid from sinning. What's going to keep your kid from sinning, is if you can winsomely love your child into relationship with Jesus Christ and to want to be like you and to want to adopt your values. But we've forgotten about that, we've become this, you know, Midas right. And I remember in 2016, writing a commentary, The Rise of Trump, The Fall of Evangelicalism, and I said, we may win this one, but we will lose in the long run, if we throw our convictions out the window, and we alienate everyone around us, by our you know, the way that we talk and the way that we relate to people. This is not how you win people to the Lord. That fell on, you know, really deaf ears. It actually lost me some key supporters too. But I just was stunned because I did not know who these people were that I thought believed the same way that I did and had the same values. And then I went, Wow, we are just on different planets, we really don't have that. Julie Roys 41:29 I want to look at one person, again, you have these palate cleansers within all of these sections. And one of them to me is Cal Thomas, who was very much a part of the right and so I can relate to that, because that was I mean, I used to be emceeing the banquet to raise money for you know, the political cause, or whatever it was. I don't do that anymore. Cal Thomas doesn't do that anymore. What changed Cal? TIM ALBERTA 41:58 It's so funny, Julie, because just a minute ago, when you were talking about what are the weapons of our warfare? I was thinking about Cal., because Cal for those who don't know his story, you know, he was Jerry Falwell Senior's lieutenant in the Moral Majority. And he was their spokesman for the Moral Majority. And the vice president of that organization, and, you know, was really heavily involved in the kind of crusading era of the Religious Right, he was a central figure. And then Cal really started to feel uneasy with what he was seeing around him. And he doesn't even sugarcoat it. We have this very raw conversation in the book where he talks about, you know, the corruption and the greed and the grift. And how he just couldn't justify it. He justified it for a while by saying, Well, look how many people we're reaching, and look at all this money coming in. So clearly, you know, God must be doing something here. And then he eventually just gets to a point where he says, No, this is a scam. It's just immoral. And he finally walks away. And then years later, he writes this book called Blinded by Might, where he kind of tries to atone. And he just says, Listen, I was a total believer in winning the culture war to protect Christian America, as you know, part of our duty, you know, to God's kingdom. And in fact, not only has it failed, but it has backfired spectacularly, that we have driven away so many people who need Jesus, but who won't have anything to do with us anymore, They won't even let us in the door to have a conversation because of the way we've treated them because of the way we've treated the culture. So, to your point about locking down the teenager in the house, right? Cal really eloquently and powerfully was giving voice to this when he wrote that book. And then, you know, in our interviews for this book, he's an older guy now he's 80. And he's looking back with such regret on those years and thinking about how did he in some way contribute to laying the groundwork for Trump ism as this kind of sub cult in the evangelical world. And what's most interesting to me from that whole conversation, and I said this to him, is that the more things have changed, the more they've stayed the exact same. I mean, this break that he's describing in the 1980s. And this kind of crisis of conscience that he's feeling is exactly what we're trying to address today. What I'm trying to address in the book now, which is that, listen, it doesn't have to be this way. You have a choice, right? We all have a choice. It was so incredibly unpleasant for me to write this book in a lot of ways, Julie. If I'm being totally honest, I probably couldn't have written it while my dad was still alive. It would have been too hard. Like I've had some people writing me emails this past week saying, oh, like thank you for your courage. Thank you for your brave, I don't feel courageous. I don't feel brave. I feel like a coward in a lot of ways that it took me so long and that a lot of ways took my dad dying and having those experiences at his funeral to finally be willing to acknowledge and use my platform, my relatively high profile journalistically speaking to address this thing that has been so clearly wrong for such a long time. And so, for anybody listening, whether it's in your individual congregation, your faith community, your family, whatever it is like, it doesn't have to be this way. And it takes people like Cal Thomas, kind of blowing up his own life, blowing up his tribal affiliations and walking away. It takes Pastor Brian Zahnd, who I write about in Chapter 15, who had a mega church of 5000 people, and they were making money hand over fist. And then he just woke up one day and had this like epiphany from the Lord that it was all wrong, and that it was so shallow, and it was doing such a disservice to the Gospel. And he blew up his mega church. He's got like 150 people who come every Sunday now and the sanctuary seats like 2000. And he made a choice, right? Cal Thomas made a choice. You've made a choice, Julie. And I just think like, at the end of the day, the people who make that choice and who decide to reckon with what this has become? I don't think they're going to regret it. I really don't. Julie Roys 46:05 I have not regretted it once being free of the whole evangelical industrial complex as it's called, and just being free to follow your conscience without thinking, what are the consequences if I speak the truth publicly? Like what's going to happen to me? Like I see so many Christians just living in fear that if they speak out, or they tell the truth that they know that something, you know, there will be bad consequences for me, and it just makes me wonder, do we believe the gospel, like do we believe the gospel? What gospel are we living on day-to-day basis? And I love Pastor Zahnd's story that was like one of my favorite stories. And it reminded me of the book because I just interviewed Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer and their book pivot, which talks about similar things, other churches that realized church is toxic. It's huge, it's successful, but I feel empty inside, you know, and I feel thin, and they made that pivot. And it may be to smaller church, it may be and it's interesting, though, you were saying how Zahnd's church is now starting to maybe even start to grow and become a little bit healthier. And so, when I hear that I say, it's going to take a while. But in this, you know, these ashes, do you see something growing that's beautiful there that can replace this ugliness that quite frankly, I think I just think it's doomed. I think it's coming down. I don't know that it will come down quickly. This complex that we've built, but I think it will come down eventually. It may take decades. But I think there will be a Christianity I hope this was my prayer that replaces it. And it's more organic and more Grassroots less big leadership and more the Body of Christ. TIM ALBERTA 47:48 Yes, I do see something rising from the ashes. I can sense it, particularly among the younger generation. One of the things that consistently surprised me in all of my reporting, and it was a pleasant surprise, to be clear, was spending time with younger believers. They ideologically, culturally, politically, like they're really no different from their parents, like they check those boxes on paper. But then you kind of get into some of this with them. And they want nothing to do with Trumpism. They want nothing to do with Charlie Kirk, and I'm talking about like the serious believers. I'm not talking about like the very casual kids who identify as Christian, but then go to a Turning Point USA event. I mean, like, you spend time around Liberty, and like, yes, there are some MAGA kids at Liberty. But most of the kids you spend time with at Liberty, including those who would self-identify as like, sure I guess on paper, I would be a Republican, because of abortion because of other issues, they will really eloquently and gracefully speak to these schisms. And they're so perceptive. I think that's the big thing, Julie, is that they can see it. Right? My generation, I kind of think of us as like the children of the Moral Majority. And we can now very clearly diagnose this in a way that my dad's generation probably couldn't, they were too close to it. They were too wrapped up in it. And I think, you know, in some ways, they almost I kind of tend to maybe just give them a little bit of a pass for that because they didn't have the appropriate distance to really assess it and analyze it in the way that I think I'm able to, and certainly in the way that the generations behind me are able to. They see what this is doing to the church, and they are saying no, thank you. Even at my home church, the guy who took over for my dad, almost run out of the place. He came very close to just quitting because it got so bad for him because he hears this young guy taking over this, this mega church congregation in a very conservative Republican community. And he's not particularly a conservative Republican. He's not like some big Democrat either. He's just a guy who like loves Jesus and who processes news events through the eyes of like the gospel, right? What's so interesting is that he lost a ton of his congregation. And then this past summer, I went back for the first time since my dad's funeral, and the place was packed, and I didn't recognize anybody there. And he comes out and gives this sort of fire and brimstone sermon, challenging them on the culture wars, challenging them on like, where are your priorities, really? What kingdom do you really belong to? And so that actually, I didn't aim to end the book on that optimistic note, but I was so encouraged by it, because it makes me think that in this market of supply and demand that you and I have talked about, and mostly we focused on the perverted nature of the supply and demand, that there is also maybe more demand out there than we realize for that true, pure form of the gospel. And so that is my hope, moving forward, and particularly with these younger Christians, who will demand something better than what we've seen so far. Julie Roys 50:53 I loved that I don't often read the epilogue, but in your book I did. And that was beautiful to read about Pastor Winans and the way that, you know, you kind of left them in the early chapters really disillusioned and discouraged. And then he comes back invigorated for the gospel, and preaching it so boldly and that really, pastors like that give me hope. And I know that there's probably a lot more of them than I encounter in you know, the line of work that I do, which usually means I hear about the worst of the worst all the time. Julie Roys 51:28 Let me just ask you about this most of your chapters are about political power and about the way that these kingdoms and the power has sort of become an idolatrous thing. And then you turn your eye to corruption going on in the church and the abuse, the abuse in the Southern Baptist Convention, how that's been addressed recently, how Rachel den Hollander stood up to it and she went, you know, most people I'm sure listening know Rachel's story. But you know, one of the first gymnasts who came forward and told her story about Larry Nasser, and how he had abused so much of the, you know, US Olympic gymnasts team. And she went from being just Joan of Arc, I think you call it to being Jezebel, right? Or from Esther to Jezebel, because she spoke out about the evil in the church. And that's what I found. When I was at Moody Radio I was allowed to speak about Joel Osteen, right? Or I was allowed to speak about the liberals in politics. But when I turned my critique on our own tribe, man, I would get shut down, you know. That's one of the reasons I left Moody besides the others that I talked about. I couldn't speak out about the evil in our own house. And I feel that at this point, we have no moral platform as Christians to be speaking about the evil out in the world anymore, until we deal with the evil in our own house and the way that it's crept in. You know, judgment begins with the house of God. He doesn't expect, you know, the people who don't know him, to act any differently than they're acting, but He expects us to, and we're not. So, I appreciated that you put this chapter in the book, dealing with some of the abuse and the corruption within the church. But you could have easily left it out and just talked about the way that politics has, you know, really usurped the gospel. Why did you put this chapter in? TIM ALBERTA 53:28 One of the things that really bugs me, is how the New Testament model here and you were just alluding to this a moment ago. The New Testament model is not ambiguous. We are to treat outsiders with unlimited grace and kindness and compassion and forgiveness, because they don't know God, and they don't know any better. That is clear. And what is also clear is that we are to treat the insiders with the utmost accountability, and they are to be held to the highest standard because they do know God, and they do know better. That is the New Testament model. And we in the American church have completely flipped it. We have nothing but hostility, and animus and enmity towards the outside world. And we practice nothing but grace and forgiveness and cheap grace and cheap forgiveness inside the church. Right? And it drives me a little bit nuts. Because if you are the person out there in the world, who is sort of curious about Jesus, and you feel something missing in your life, what are the odds today that you're going to go to a local church and try to learn a little bit more? I mean, you know, you might say, Well, some people will, some people do Sure. But the statistics here don't lie, Julie. Like when you look back 30 or 40 years, the perception of the church among unbelievers in this country was incredibly positive. People who did not know Jesus looked at the church as a beacon of moral rectitude, of compassion, of social good. Even if they were never going to sit in the pews with us, even if they didn't believe any of the doctrine, they respected the church and they admire the church. And that has completely changed. It's just completely fallen apart. There are some people who will tell you like Robert Jeffers and I go back and forth on this in the book, he said, Well, that it doesn't matter, right? Those people aren't looking for the Lord. I completely disagree. I think the credibility of the church matters enormously. TIM ALBERTA 55:37 To your question of why did I feel compelled to include that chapter? Well, who's going to hold the church accountable? Is the church going to hold itself accountable? No, I mean, typically, institutions are not very good at self-policing. We know that from working in journalism, right? By the way, the media is not very good at self-policing. Actually, I could argue the media is terrible at self-policing. I mean, any big institution, it can't be expected to hold itself accountable. Okay, so what are the mechanisms for accountability here? If we care about the Bride of Christ, if we care about the credibility of the church, if we care about how the outside world perceives the church, which I think matters enormously, then what do we do to ensure that the church is on the up and up and is doing its duty before God and it's carrying out its purpose and its mission? You know, journalism has to play a role in that. I think, you know, the law has to play a role in that. I think that there are external forces, even, you know, gasp secular forces that have to play a role in that, because otherwise, we just leave these churches, these pastors to their own devices. And I'm sorry, but you don't need to read any other source then the Bible itself. You pick up the Bible itself, read from Old Testament to new and see how well that works out. We see it time and again. I there are not accountability structures in place, then things go very badly, very quickly. And so that's a long answer to your question. Julie Roys 57:06 Hmm. Well, I appreciate that. And I appreciate your book. And I know you're getting interviews all over the country. I saw you on CBS, Good Morning America; that was so exciting to see but really wonderful that you've gotten this platform to winsomely speak to the rest of society who I remember a couple of times, I got to be on NPR. They would ask me about evangelicalism, and they are always amazed, I think that I could even string two sentences together. And I was actually an evangelical right? But I am so thrilled that you are representing evangelicals because you're a face that and I don't know, do you still identify as Evangelical? TIM ALBERTA 57:49 not really, I don't fight the label, but I would not volunteer it for myself just because of exactly what we just described, you know. Somebody outside the church hears it, and they quickly shut down the conversation, because they don't really want anything to do with you. Julie Roys 58:01 I don't know if I would take that term, either. I'm kind of where you are, as well. But you're a Christian, and you love Jesus. And even when I heard you in that one interview recently said, How's your faith? and you're like, it's as strong as it's ever been. I thank you for that and for your witness, and for this book, and for giving me so much of your time. I really appreciate it. So, thank you, TIM ALBERTA 58:21 Thank you for all that you're doing. And thank you for saying that. It's very kind of you. We're ultimately playing some small part here in trying to get this thing back on track and doing it as humbly as possible. I hope that we can make a difference. Thank you for having me on. And I know that we'll continue to talk. Julie Roys 58:39 Absolutely. And thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And just a quick reminder, if you'd like a copy of Tim Alberta's book, The Kingdome, The Power, and The Glory, we'd be happy to send you one for a gift of $50 or more to The Roys Report this month. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising, we simply have you, the people who care about exposing evil and restoring the church. So, if you'd like to support our work and get Tim's book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from the RESTORE conference. This one is by veteran church planter Lance Ford, who gave an amazing talk on the Christian addiction to leadership and why it's so toxic. I love this talk and I think you will too. So be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and as a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Google podcasts or Spotify. That way you'll never miss an episode. And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then please share the podcast on social media. So, more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks so much for joining me today hope you are blessed and encouraged. Read more

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Decoding Revelation: A Modern Take on Ancient Wisdom with Dr. Scot McKnight

Faithful Politics

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 11, 2023 55:38 Transcription Available

In this enlightening episode of Faithful Politics, hosts Josh Bertram and Will Wright engage in a thought-provoking conversation with Dr. Scott McKnight, a renowned New Testament scholar. Titled "Decoding Revelation: A Modern Take on Ancient Wisdom," the episode delves into the complexities and contemporary relevance of the Book of Revelation.Dr. McKnight sheds light on Revelation's historical context, emphasizing its original intent as a narrative of justice and the defeat of evil, rather than a manual for speculative end-time theories. He clarifies common misinterpretations, particularly dispelling notions of identifying modern-day figures as antichrists or beasts. Instead, he encourages readers to view Revelation as a template for discerning the presence of 'Babylon' or corrupt power in both ecclesiastical and secular realms.The discussion pivots to how Revelation's imagery, particularly of Babylon, resonates with modern issues of political corruption and moral decay, drawing parallels between ancient Rome and contemporary societies. Dr. McKnight underlines the importance of wisdom, witness, and worship in understanding and applying the teachings of Revelation to modern Christian life.Furthermore, the episode touches upon the broader role of the Bible in shaping moral decisions and the church's responsibility in contemporary society. Dr. McKnight addresses the need for Christians to adopt a comprehensive and faithful approach to biblical teachings, steering clear of distortions and cultural influences that diverge from the core Christian message.This episode is a compelling blend of historical insights, theological exploration, and practical guidance, offering listeners a fresh perspective on one of the Bible's most mystifying books. It's an essential listen for those seeking to navigate the complex relationship between faith, politics, and modern society through the lens of ancient wisdom.Support the showTo learn more about the show, contact our hosts, or recommend future guests, click on the links below: Website: https://www.faithfulpoliticspodcast.com/ Faithful Host: Josh@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Political Host: Will@faithfulpoliticspodcast.com Twitter: @FaithfulPolitik Instagram: faithful_politics Facebook: FaithfulPoliticsPodcast LinkedIn: faithfulpolitics

Ep 350: Reading Rundown (Summer Edition), with Alex Bernardo

The Libertarian Christian Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 15, 2023 47:07

Alex Bernardo joins Doug again to discuss the books they've got in hand and on the shelf! Alex's book list includes a book by Lori Calhoun, known for her thought-provoking writing on the military industrial complex and the philosophy of war. They explore her book War and Delusion and her newest release, Questioning the COVID Company Line, which challenges the government and mainstream media's narrative surrounding the pandemic. Doug has been diving into biblical studies a bit more, particularly the works of Scott McKnight and N.T. Wright on situating the language of the gospel in the first century. They explore how Paul utilizes the term "evangelion" in his letters and discuss the importance of understanding Paul's use of language for faithful scriptural interpretation. Alex then discusses Brian Rosner's book Paul and the Law, which tackles the intriguing relationship between Paul and the Jewish law. Along with a window into Alex's reading routine, they also share some exciting book recommendations covering a range of topics, from politics and economics to medieval history and philosophy of science. Near the end, they discuss Carol Roth's new book, You Will Own Nothing, exposing the importance of ownership for wealth and freedom, and how various forces are aiming to undermine this fundamental concept. Audio Production by Podsworth Media - https://podsworth.com

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Candidate for Treasurer of Louisiana giving away Taylor Swift Tickets

WWL First News with Tommy Tucker

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 22, 2023 8:55

Dave Cohen in for Tommy. Dave talks with Scott McKnight, a candidate for Treasurer.

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Episode 90: Spiritual Practices - How are Young People Transformed? #3 - Jarin Oda

Limitless Leadership Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 22, 2023 65:02

We're joined by Jarin Oda, Pastor of Youth at Bridgetown Church, Portland, Oregon, to talk about the power of spiritual practices in the life of a leader, and the lives of our young people.

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Church After Mars Hill | Laura Barringer & Dr. Scott McKnight

Transforming Engagement, the Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 1, 2023 54:06

We're joined this week by father-daughter team, Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, co-authors of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Their book was inspired by the events at Willow Creek Church, prompting them to explore toxic church cultures and the need for change. They contrast toxic church cultures with tov cultures (tov meaning "good" in Hebrew). In toxic church cultures such as Mars Hill or Willow Creek, the marks include narcissism, fear, institution creep, false narratives, loyalty culture, celebrity culture, and a focus on leadership culture. On the other hand, tov cultures are characterized by empathy, grace, people-first approach, telling the truth, justice, service culture, and Christlikeness culture. Their book has provided language and hope for those who have experienced toxicity in churches, giving a voice to the wounded resistors. In their upcoming book, Pivot, Scot and Laura focus on the "how" of building tov cultures. We hope you'll find that this conversation continues our goal of not only exposing the characteristics of toxic church culture but also offering hope for restoration and the rebuilding of a different and healthier community of believers. Listener resources: Check out A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Pre-order Scot and Laura's follow up book, Pivot: the Priorities, Practices and Powers that Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture , coming in September 2023 Read Laura Barringer's article, “Willow Creek's Core Meeting: A Response” in Christianity Today. More works referenced in this episode: Lectures on Calvinism by Abraham Kuyper; H. Richard Niebuhr; David Brooks; Organizational Culture and Leadership by Edgar Schein. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

Angels Unveiled | Unseen (Part 1) | Stephen Feith

Madison Church

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 27, 2023 26:58 Transcription Available

Are you ready to challenge your perspective on angels and the unseen realm? Join us in our latest Unseen series as we dive into the fascinating world of angels and unearth the truth behind these powerful spiritual beings. With expert insights from Professor Andy Angel and author Scott McKnight, you're in for a thought-provoking and eye-opening experience.In this conversation, we debunk common misconceptions about angels - no, they're not just chubby babies with harps. Instead, we explore their true nature as divine messengers sent by God to bring news, comfort, and deliverance. We also delve into the riveting story of Elisha and the supernatural army, showcasing how God's incredible power protects and guides his people.Embrace the wonder of the unseen and open yourself up to experiencing the supernatural like never before. Whether you're a believer or a skeptic, this episode is sure to challenge and inspire you to see the world in a whole new light. So, tune in and let's embark on this powerful journey together. Trust us, you won't see angels the same way ever again.Support the show

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172: A Better Way to Read the Bible … and Understand It

RVCC Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 28, 2023 25:30

Is the Bible boring or even confusing? Join us for this sermon series as we discover some ways to better read the Bible. And not just read it but understand it as well. Bible Reading Resources: - "Cultural Background Study Bible" is an awesome resource that you can purchase or rent from the library. - If you are a reader, check out "The Blue Parakeet: Rethinking How You Read the Bible" by Scott Mcknight. - For our little folk out there, "The Jesus Storybook Bible" is a solid introduction, with excellent artwork. - Are you more of a Podcast person? Awesome! Put aside just 2 hours of your life and listen to episodes 10, 11, and 12 on Biblical Narratives by the Bible Project. https://bibleproject.com/podcast/series/how-to-read-the-bible-series/ - Would you rather watch videos? Well great! You can find videos on Biblical Narrative too https://bibleproject.com/explore/how-to-read-the-bible/ Find our times & locations to visit us in person or online at https://www.rainierview.org Interested in understanding more about what it means to have a relationship with Jesus? Reach out so we can do that same at https://rainierview.org/contact Be a part of supporting this ministry and our community at https://rainierview.org/give -- Get Connected: Website: https://www.rainierview.org RVCC Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rainierviewcc RVCC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rainierviewcc

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Change: Dr. Scot McKnight on Reviving the Original Context in His Second Testament Translation

Play Episode Listen Later May 24, 2023 58:16 Transcription Available

Discover the unexpected twist in Dr. Scot McKnight's journey toward creating a more literal Bible translation that will leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about the New Testament. Are you ready to slow down, think, and immerse yourself in the first-century Christian world?Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scot McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. When it comes to women in ministry, though, and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tove" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Pre-order Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament. Use AWORLD23 to get 30% off plus free shipping at @ivpress.com on The Second Testament through June 7.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's Substack newsletter, the Jesus Creed.Consider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight at Northern Seminary.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, the Jesus Creed.Read Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long...

Change: Dr. Scot McKnight on Reviving the Original Context in His Second Testament Translation

The Libertarian Christian Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 24, 2023 59:49 Transcription Available

Ep 326: Revelation's Call to Discipleship and Discernment in Today's World, with Scot McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later May 12, 2023 46:32

What if the book of Revelation wasn't just about predicting the future, but rather a guide for living faithfully in the present? In this episode, Doug sits down with acclaimed theologian Scott McKnight to discuss his intriguing new book, Revelation for the Rest of Us: A Prophetic Call to Follow Jesus as a Dissident Disciple. Together we explored how modern Christians misunderstand the book of Revelation. In our conversation, Scott and I delve into the dual critique of empire and Church presented in Revelation chapters two and three, exploring how 'Babylon creep' has influenced the Church and shifted its focus from living the way of the Lamb to living the way of Rome. We also discuss the importance of imagination in understanding Revelation's rich imagery and symbolism. Scot also reviews the 'Play Bill' of characters and events for readers to engage with. Most importantly, we examine the practical applications of Revelation using a 'Babylonian Hermeneutic,' identifying Babylon in our current world and its influence on the Church today. We discuss the dangers of partisanship, placing allegiance to America above Jesus, and the critique of economic exploitation. Don't miss this fascinating discussion as we explore the timely wisdom found in Scott McKnight's Revelation for the Rest of Us. Audio Production by Podsworth Media - https://podsworth.com

america jesus christ church christians revelation rome lamb discipleship babylon discernment scot audio production scot mcknight scott mcknight podsworth media

Point of View April 17, 2023 : Scott McKnight

Point of View Radio Talk Show

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 17, 2023 89:17

Monday, April 17, 2023 Our own Kerby Anderson hosts today's show. During the first hour, Kerby covers today's top stories and shares concern over some recent events. Kerby's guest in the second hour is Scot McKnight. Professor McKnight will be sharing his new book, Revelation for the Rest of Us. Connect with us on Facebook […]

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Practices - Why Fast?

Coram Deo Denver

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 27, 2023 35:37

In this second message on Fasting David invites us to reflect on the "why" behind the practice. Often Fasting is seen as a means to an end, an intense practice to get God to move or get a breakthrough. David argues that Fasting is not primarily causal, but rather a natural response to encountering a Sacred Moment. For further study on this idea check out Scott Mcknight's book Fasting.

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A Possible Paradigm Shift? The War in Ukraine and Green Energy Transition

Beyond the Headlines

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 12, 2023 84:22

The war in Ukraine has fundamentally changed the way in which we think of numerous issues in public life and international relations, from refugees to food security to nuclear proliferation. However, one of the topics that has received considerable attention in the last year has been the relationship between fossil fuels, clean energy, and global security. Since the war began, the world has seen skyrocketing energy prices, introspection on the sources of fossil fuel energy, and anxieties over the future of energy stability. This has led to scholars, politicians, and experts arguing for a stronger link between the pursuit of clean energy transition and global security. This episode will aim to address the bigger questions of this debate and their implications for Canada, and the world. Through a conversation with Mark Winfield from York University's Faculty of Environment and Urban Change, the first segment of the episode will discuss the effects of the war in Ukraine on the discourse surrounding energy transition and Canada's role as a global energy exporter In the second segment, we have a discussion with Scott McKnight, from the Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy. This segment puts emphasis on the global trends in Green Energy Transition in the wake of the conflict, with particular emphasis on how these issues affect China and the Global South. Our final guest is Hlib Mikhno, a junior professional in the fields of external relations and energy transition, who recently represented Ukraine as the European Climate Pact Ambassador during high-level youth policy dialogues with the Vice-President of the European Commission for the European Green Deal. Hlib's segment explores Ukraine's energy transition through the prism of Russia's invasion, with a focus on the constant shelling of Ukraine's energy infrastructure, plans for EU integration, and post-war reconstruction. Guests: Mark Winfield, Professor at the Faculty of Environmental and Urban Change at York University. Scott McKnight, Professor at the Munk School of Global Affairs & Public Policy. Hlib Mikhno, European Climate Pact Ambassador for Ukraine in various EU institutions Producers: Marie Ascencio - Senior Producer Antoine Fougère-Ramsamooj - Junior Producer

Is this a Closing or an Episode of COPS? | Interview with Scott McKnight

We Need Closure

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 27, 2023 42:09

We've never claimed to be the smartest ones in the room, but this week we were easily coming in last place. Scott McKnight, owner and lead attorney of McKnight Title joins the hosts this week to provide expert knowledge around the importance of using a reputable title company, what title insurance actually is and stories of assault, secret marriages and all the events that can (and have) occurred at a closing. Heather and Kalyn admit that they rely on the title company for more than they should (Can you set up the buyer's utilities for us?) and Scott continues to be the expert on all things the title company does for us and our clients. Because there's never enough time, enjoy Part I of our title episode and join us next month as we ask more title questions in a second interview!

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Ep. 36 | Six Books That Shaped My Political Thinking and Theology

The Protestant Libertarian Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 24, 2022 28:43

It is the holiday season, which means you will most likely be receiving at least one Amazon gift card! In this short Christmas special, I present six books, three written about the Bible and the church and three written about politics and economics, that shaped my political worldview and led me to a uniquely Christian version of libertarianism. Below is the list, with Amazon links for your convenience. Happy reading, and merry Christmas! Are You the One Who is to Come? by Mike Bird: https://a.co/d/dBD49ywThe King Jesus Gospel by Scott McKnight: https://a.co/d/7qSxDgEThe Politics of Witness by Allan Bevere: https://a.co/d/hYw3xO5Economic Facts and Fallacies by Thomas Sowell: https://a.co/d/70aieGxThe Road to Serfdom by F.A. Hayek: https://a.co/d/5kq85GSEnough Already by Scott Horton: https://a.co/d/3O9tehv

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Everyday Hero: Scott McKnight on Living by Your Core Beliefs

Help for Loving Relationships

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 11, 2022 38:38

For his 80th birthday, Scott had bookmark cards printed that listed truths to live by that he gave as gifts to family and friends. Included are sayings from John Rockefeller and Scott's own remarkable life as a rancher, COO of Fuller Brush Company, father of 6 children, and grandfather of many. See if you don't find his stories as delightful as we did!

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Summer Break July-August 2022

Help for Loving Relationships

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 8, 2022 2:27

Hello Everyone!Thanks to your support we reached 500 downloads in 5 months! I am not releasing episodes in July or August. Here is a line-up of episodes that will release starting September 2022.Bob Good will talk about strengthening marriage. He is John Gottman level-3 trained and has 3 years of counseling experience to draw from to share his favorite ideas for all types of marital challenges as well as the marriage just needing a simple tune-up. Deana Thayer will discuss parenting as well as unique issues related to blended families. When parents remarry, this can add some complexity to family relationships. She has many years of experience hosting her own podcast and running a group for blended families at her church.Scott McKnight turned 80 earlier this year. I attended his birthday with 120 other friends and family including 8 of his children, a growing number of grandkids, and many who were influenced for good by this man. I chose Scott as an everyday hero who has developed a bookmark that lists his philosophy for a successful and happy life. Jon Mott, a former professor and political science guru, will share ways to navigate polictical conversations both in peron and online. You need these tips to ensure the next family reunion or political post is not plagued by conflict that can create unnecessary tension in your friend/family relationships.

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Biblical Hermeneutics #2, A Biblical Scholars Perspective - With Dr. Scott McKnight

Regent College Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 28, 2022 51:23

Have you ever wondered what biblical scholars want theologians to know when interpreting scripture? Continuing in our Biblical Hermeneutics series, we had the opportunity to have a conversation with Dr. Scott McKnight. He has recently written a book called “Five Things Biblical Scholars Wish Theologians Knew." We hope you enjoy our conversation. To learn more about Regent College and our upcoming courses, visit:https://www.regent-college.eduCheck out the Regent bookstore for Dr. McKnight's book. https://bookstore.regent-college.edu

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Best Theology Books for 2022 #14

TheoLIVE

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 4, 2022 64:32

Here are 10 of the best theology books that you should read in 2022. These theology books are going to be helpful as we navigate another complex year. What are some of your favourite theology books? #Theology #TheologyBooks #Library The list: 1. The Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan (ISBN , 978-1-4335-0699-4) 2. Life Together by Deitrich Bonhoeffer 3. Gospel Driven Church by Jared C. Wilson 4. A church called Tov by Scott McKnight and Laura Barringer 5. Revive us again by Joel Carpenter 6. Spurgeon v. Hyper Calvinism by Iain Murray 7. The Holy Trinity by Robert Letham 8. Studies in the Sermon on the Mount by Martyn Lloyd Jones 9. Divine Blessing by William Osborne 10. God's Unfaithful Wife by Ray Ortlund Jr. ------- MY LINKS -------

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BEST OF Season Four! 1 Cor 11, 14 & 1 Peter 3

The Eden Podcast with Bruce C. E. Fleming

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 26, 2021 21:18

1 Corinthians 11:4-6 is a quotation of other people's words. Paul then refutes them.1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is another quotation of other people's words. Paul refutes them too.Paul does not restrict women from ministry or limit women in any way.In 1 Peter 3:1-7, Peter talks about unequally yoked spouses. These words apply only to spouses in that situation.A spouse is the weaker partner without Christ.Go Deeper.

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Tyler Huckabee explains why your Christmas tree is not a pagan symbol. Plus, what do we do with all of our painful memories this Christmas?

The Common Good Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 15, 2021 53:11

(00:00-9:56): Will this Christmas be the most angry time of the year? A new survey highlights just how angry vaccinated and unvaccinated Americans are with each other today. (9:56-26:46): Tyler Huckabee is the Senior Editor at Relevant Magazine and Co-Host of the Cape Town Podcast. He joined Brian and Aubrey to explain why your Christmas tree does not have the pagan roots most people think it does and also why “Deconstruction” does not mean “Deconversion.” (26:46-35:21): What are the six gospels in America right now? Brian and Aubrey shared their thoughts, along with some ideas from Scott McKnight. (35:21-44:11): What do we do with all of our painful memories this Christmas? Brian and Aubrey provided a Christmas survival guide. (44:11-53:10): Brian and Aubrey wrapped up the show by sharing some uplifting headlines. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

christmas america americans christmas trees pagan symbol deconstruction senior editor relevant magazine deconversion painful memories scott mcknight tyler huckabee

Trinity Football Podcast: Coach Scott McKnight of surprising JSerra leads off Week 5 show

Dan Albano's podcasts on Trinity League football and SoCal water polo

Play Episode Play 55 sec Highlight Listen Later Sep 22, 2021 66:42

JSerra football coach Scott McKnight talks about the Lions' impressive win at Rancho Cucamonga to kickoff the analysis of Week 4, which also included big wins by Santa Margarita, Servite, St. John Bosco and Orange Lutheran. OCVarsity's Dan Albano and insider Scott Barajas also preview this week's games:JSerra-Newport HarborHelix-ServiteLa Mirada-Mater DeiMcKnight also talks about why the JSerra-Newport Harbor game holds a special meeting with him.

leads lions surprising football podcast coach scott podcast coach off week rancho cucamonga john bosco santa margarita servite scott mcknight jserra orange lutheran dan albano

Church: The Good Vs Toxic with Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer

Finding Something Real

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 18, 2021 48:45

Scott McKnight and Laura Barringer join Janell and Byrnese on the podcast today! They talk about loving the church, intoxication with celebrity pastors, what the word “Tov” has to do with the church, why the church is more of a hospital for sinners than a resort for the holy., and more! We hope you enjoy this episode! ___We would love to thank our Patrons for all their amazing support! To learn more about supporting Finding Something REAL via Patreon, click here!Mentioned in this EpisodeIntroducing Byrnese: Her Story & Faith QuestionsA Church Called Tov Scott McKnightLaura BarringerThe Jesus Creed for Children - Laura BarringerThe Jesus Creed - Scott McKnightThe Messy Truth - Caleb KaltenbachLife Together - Dietrich Bonhoeffer A.W. TozerGrace Enough with Amber Cullum Willow CreekMars Hill/Mark Driscoll

church toxic tov janell scot mcknight barringer laura barringer scott mcknight

The African American Interpreter and Paul

The Distillery

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 25, 2021 49:56

New Testament scholar Dr. Lisa Bowens takes aim at this question in her new book, African American Readings of Paul: Reception, Resistance, and Transformation. In this interview, Sushama Austin-Connor talks with Dr. Bowens about the inspiration behind this work, the “hidden figures” of African American hermeneutics, interpretations of Paul that resist white supremacy and racism, and more. Lisa Bowens, associate professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary, earned a BS (cum laude), MSBE, and MLIS from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and an MTS and ThM from Duke Divinity School. She received her Ph.D. from Princeton Theological Seminary. Her recently published book, African American Readings of Paul: Reception, Resistance, and Transformation (Eerdmans) is the first book devoted solely to investigating a historical trajectory of how African Americans have understood Paul and utilized his work to resist and protest injustice and racism in their own writings from the 1700s to the mid-twentieth century. Her previous book, An Apostle in Battle: Paul and Spiritual Warfare in 2 Corinthians 12:1-10 (Mohr Siebeck), is a revision of her dissertation and examines Paul's ascent to the third heaven through a cosmic/apocalyptic lens. It traces martial imagery in the letter and explores how this imagery facilitates understanding Paul's journey as an example of spiritual warfare. Dayle Rounds (00:00): What is an African-American interpretation of Paul? Dr. Lisa Bowens is associate professor of New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary and author of the book *African-American Readings of Paul: Reception, Resistance, and Transformation. In this episode, Sushama Austin-Connor talks with Dr. Bowens about this groundbreaking work in New Testament studies. Dr. Bowens begins with a story of Howard Thurman's grandmother and her discomfort with certain readings of Paul, particularly the preaching of Paul that states that slaves must obey their masters. The story led to Bowen's interest in researching the complex history between Paul's teachings and Christianity's relationship and complicity in racism and slavery. In this conversation Dr. Bowens highlights how, despite this complex history, African Americans have still interpreted Paul's letters to protest and resist oppression. She speaks at length about several of the African American interpreters surveyed in her book, including Harriet Jacobs, the first African American to write her autobiography, and Lemuel Haynes, the first ordained African American in the United States. [percussive music begins] [water droplet sound] You are listening to The Distillery at Princeton Theological Seminary. Sushama Austin-Connor (01:18): Alright, Dr. Bowens. I'm so excited to be with you this afternoon for our interview, for The Distillery, on your newest book. I wanted to start with just a general idea of this topic. Like, why this topic, what was so important about it for you? Lisa Bowens (01:38): Yeah, so, a couple of things were happening simultaneously that brought about this project. So when I was working on my dissertation -- my dissertation was on Second Corinthians, chapter 12, Paul's Ascent to the Third Heaven. And when I was working on that, I wanted to include in that project a chapter on how African Americans have interpreted that particular passage in Paul. And so within a conversation with my Doctor Father at the time, and he suggested that I do that as a separate project. And so while we were having those types of conversations, I was also attending different conferences. And at these conferences, people were lifting up the story of Howard Thurman's grandmother as the way African Americans interpreted Paul. And so I kept hearing that over and over, and I thought, is that really true? Is that really the case? So to make a long story short, the conversation I had with my Doctor Father and my attending these conferences and hearing a story of Howard Thurman's grandmother as the way African Americans interpreted all kind of converged for me. And so I said, well, let me not just concentrate on Second Corinthians 12. Let's just do an investigation and just see -- how have African Americans interpreted Paul overall. So those kinds of those two topics just kind of merged. And I just expanded my focus on Paul and African Americans' interpretation of Paul. So that's how this project came about. And it's been an interesting and formative journey for me. Sushama Austin-Connor (03:24): And I want to get to the journey and I want to get to Howard Thurman's -- the story of Howard Thurman's grandmother and how that relates to how African Americans look at Paul. So you have an idea like this, how do you get to start researching? Where do you start? What are, what are kind of the key milestones to even get started? Where do you know to look? Lisa Bowens (03:48): Yes. So one of the things that happened, I was in conversations with different scholars about my project at the time when I was just focusing on Second Corinthians 12, and different people started recommending, "Oh, you should read this person. You should look here." And so one of the things that's interesting about research is once you look at a source or two, those sources will lead you to other sources. And so one of the first sources I looked at was *God Struck Me Dead*, a very important volume in which the readers are presented with conversion stories of enslaved Africans. And so reading those stories really got me to thinking about just how powerful these narratives were. These African American people were just talking about these amazing divine encounters with God. And so, you know, reading that volume, looking through those narratives, led me to this anthology of narratives edited by Yuval Taylor. *I Was Born a Slave*. It's a couple of volumes, huge volumes, where the editor has compiled autobiographies of enslaved persons. And so looking and reading through those narratives, which were powerful, but also very difficult to read, they're very candid about what they experienced in slavery, but also very candid about their own divine encounters with God and what was preached to them by white enslavers and how these African Americans interpreted scripture for themselves. So, reading those narratives kind of led me to other sources as well. *This is in the Spirit*, edited by William Andrews, the autobiographies of Jarena Lee and Julia Foote and Zilpha Elaw. So, it's kind of like once you start that path, different other sources come up. And so I was very fortunate to be in conversation with great scholars who recommended readings, but also just once you start reading again, you just, it leads you to other sources as well. Sushama Austin-Connor (06:16): And for something of this magnitude, are you traveling a lot? Is it, I'm assuming it's a post-, I mean a pre-COVID research. Lisa Bowens (06:26): Yeah. Yeah. So I've been working on this for quite some time. So I started working on that chapter, like for my dissertation, like back in 2014 and finished the manuscript, I think I finished it in '16, '17 around that time. And then, you know, did some editing afterward, but yeah, so it took me a while to kind of go through the material, read the narratives. And one of the things that was really interesting about this whole process is that once I started, it became clear to me that there was no way I was going to be able to include all of what I wanted to include because originally the project was -- I wanted to focus on how have African Americans interpreted Paul from the 1700s all the way to the present. And that just -- it just became clear that this is not, I would not be able to do that. Sushama Austin-Connor (07:24): Right. I bet. Lisa Bowens (07:26): Yeah. So I ended up stopping mid-20th century, with the civil rights movement, and even, you know, stopping there, I ended up not including all of the interpreters that could have been included. It was just too many, but I think that's a great problem to have. And so, you know, one of the things I hope that this work does is spur interest in this topic and that other researchers, writers, scholars will be interested in doing more research in this area because I think it's a fruitful area that needs to be explored not only because it helps us to understand, you know, Christianity's relationship with racism and slavery, but also the legacy, the great legacy of these African interpreters who have gone before us and how they have utilized scripture to protest and resist racism, white supremacy. And there's such a rich legacy and a rich heritage that I think needs to continually be uncovered and revealed. I like to call these figures 'hidden figures,' because I think, you know, some of them are well-known, but many of them are not well-known. And so I think their voices are so important and they need to be heard. Sushama Austin-Connor (08:48): And actually one of my questions for you is about some of the individual interpreters that you talk about. And we can talk about that in a sec, but give us the context: talk to us about Howard Thurman's grandmother and that important story. And then about generally, how do African American congregants and people and religious scholars look at Paul? Lisa Bowens (09:14): Yeah. So the story of Howard Thurman's grandmother is really a powerful story. So Howard Thurman was a prominent civil rights leader, activist, theologian of the 20th century, just a really profound scholar in his own right. And in his book, *Jesus and the Disinherited*, he tells the story of his grandmother, Nancy Ambrose, who was born a slave. And, you know, once she was emancipated, Howard Thurman, her grandson, would often read to her because she never learned to read or write. And the way he tells the story is just so powerful. He talks about how she was always very particular about which scriptures she wanted him to read. And he noticed that, you know, she would have particular portions of scripture for him to read to her, but nothing from Paul, except from -- except for First Corinthians 13. And so he says, one day he gets up the courage to ask her why. Lisa Bowens (10:20): And she tells him that, when she was an enslaved person, the white minister would always preach from Paul, "Slaves, obey your master." And she said, she told him that she promised herself that if she ever became free, she would never read that part of scripture ever again. And so it's a really powerful story in so many ways because first of all, it tells us how scripture was used and preached to enslaved persons to try to justify their enslavement. But it also shows, gives a glimpse into this complicated relationship that African Americans have had with the Apostle Paul because of how he was used and how he was preached to them. And so, this story becomes an important part of illuminating that relationship. And what I try to do in my book is to show that, yes, that is an important part of the relationship between African Americans and Paul, but there are also other voices too, and embarked on this research journey. Lisa Bowens (11:37): I wasn't quite sure what I would find -- if I would find that there were many African Americans who follow Nancy Ambrose in really kind of rejecting Paul in some sense. But one of the things that was really surprising to me was that for the most part, African Americans really gravitated towards Paul in their writings and their autobiographies, in their sermons and their speeches. And they actually utilized him to argue for their freedom, to argue for justice, to argue for their own humanity. And I think that's one of the surprising -- and I think one of the gifts that these interpreters leave us, I think, seeing how scripture can be used and really does provide resources for the struggle for justice. [water droplet sound] Sushama Austin-Connor (12:36): Talk to me and talk to our listeners about just calling them interpreters and what that means. So all of the interpreters that you talk about in your book, who are interpreters? Why are we calling them interpreters? Lisa Bowens (12:54): That's a really good question. I guess I'm calling them interpreters because it's [inaudible]. So I call them interpreters and I also call them hermeneuts in the book. So I call them that because they are reading scripture, but they are analyzing it in a way that speaks to their own context, to their own situation. And they are using their agency to go against what the other interpretations of Paul they're hearing. Right? So, their hermeneutics, their interpretation, their interpretive posture, the way they're reading, analyzing scripture, all of that is so important because it shows that these African Americans do not rely upon white interpretations of scripture. They are utilizing their own agency. I like to use the phrase that Brad Brexton uses. They are seizing hermeneutical control of scripture, and they are saying we are not objects at which scripture is directed toward us, but we are subjects in which we have agency by the spirit of God to interpret scripture for ourselves. So yeah, that's why I call them interpreters. [water droplet sound] Sushama Austin-Connor (14:39): Dr. Bowens, can you talk some more about African Americans' connection to Paul and to the scripture? Lisa Bowens (14:48): Yeah, so I think, one of the things you see in the book is that African Americans connected to Paul in so many different ways. Some of them connected to him through the idea of shared suffering. Paul often talks in his letters about the things he endures for the sake of the gospel. In Second Corinthians 11, he gives this litany of sufferings where he's shipwrecked, he's stoned. He just suffered so many things because of the gospel that he proclaimed. And so you have, some African American interpreters gravitate toward him because they see in him a companion, a shared co-sufferer, someone who shares their suffering. And so you will often see in some of their writings, how they talk about their sufferings and they see Paul as a kinship -- they have a kinship relationship with him. Others share experiences with Paul in terms of his mystical encounters. Lisa Bowens (15:58): Earlier we talked about his travel to the third heaven, that ascent episode in Second Corinthians 12. And so a number of these interpreters in their stories talk about these profound encounters they have with God and the language they use to describe them is often the language Paul uses to describe his own experience, going into the third heaven, having an angel appear to them. And so they gravitate to Paul in that sense that their divine encounters with God in many ways mirror or reflect Paul's own encounter with God. The other thing I would say in terms of how they relate to Paul, they pick up on his, what I call apocalyptic or cosmic sensibilities. This idea that sin is not just something that's personal, but sin is something that's causing it. That it's a power and it affects structures and systems. And so you'll often see in these interpreters, some of them gravitate towards this sensibility in Paul. They talk about sin as not just something personal, but as something that affects societies, that affects systems and structures. And that salvation then is not just about the individual, but salvation is also cosmic. And so I think, for some of these interpreters, they pick up on these apocalyptic elements of Paul and use them to talk about their own experiences with God and what they see happening in their own context, in terms of racial injustice and how evil is not just about being inside the body, but it's about the outside oppressive forces that affect the body. So yeah, there are a number of ways that these African American interpreters gravitate toward Paul and find his voice to be important for their own voices. Sushama Austin-Connor (18:14): Yeah. And it feels and sounds like that suffering and trying to make some meaning-making out of suffering is a big, big part of it. Would that be something that you think interpreters through the ages, this meaning-making was about making-meaning of their own suffering and looking at Paul's suffering in order to do that? Lisa Bowens (18:38): Yeah, I think so. I think it's a sense of -- so I think one of the things I try to do in the book is to show the importance of the context to these interpreter's interpretation. So their contexts oftentimes are really horrendous contexts in which they are suffering mentally. They are suffering in their bodies, and they're also being tormented spiritually in the sense that they are being told consistently that they have no God, that God did not create them. And they're consistently being told that they're not human. And so their suffering is taking place on multiple levels. And so one of the reasons I think these divine encounters that they have are so important is because these divine encounters counter what they're hearing, what they're being preached to, how they're being preached to, it's countering all of this dehumanization that they're facing on so many levels. Lisa Bowens (19:53): And so these divine encounters they have with God and the Holy Spirit affirm their humanity, affirm that they are important. They have value, they are significant, and so many of them talk about being called to preach the gospel. And so when they're called to preach the gospel, they're able to understand their own suffering in the sense of how Paul suffered for sharing the gospel. So they're able to make this link between their suffering and Paul's suffering. And in a sense, understand that it's -- I think for us in modernity it may be kind of hard for us to get that part, but you're able to make sense of it in a sense that -- I'm suffering, but even at the same time I'm suffering, my body has value. I am significant to God, God loves me. I am human. You know? And so I think for them, Paul becomes this kinship figure who kind of understands them and they understand him. Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. Sushama Austin-Connor (21:15): The link is interesting, because you could go completely the opposite way. I mean, I think is that part of what Howard Thurman's grandmother is saying -- that, is there possibly not a connection that she wants to make because of the link to how, you know, slave masters used Paul. Is that part of it? Lisa Bowens (21:41): Yeah. And so I think for Howard Thurman's grandmother, you see this horrendous use of Paul to justify what's happening to her, and then you have other African American interpreters who actually in their own way, push against that use of Paul, and say, like -- I'm thinking of, for example, Lemuel Haynes, who says Paul doesn't justify slavery. Actually, when you read First Corinthians 7:21, Paul is saying, if you can get your freedom, attain it. And he also talks about how, just because slavery existed in Paul's day, it doesn't mean that it's right. In every generation, you have people who go against what God has called for and ordained. So you have these interpreters who gravitate toward Paul and hold on to him, but then you have others, like Howard Thurman's grandmother who rejects Paul. So it's a very interesting relationship that you see that these interpreters develop with him on different levels. Sushama Austin-Connor (22:50): On different levels. Yeah. Yeah. As we're on the topic, I'm wondering about some of the women, the black women interpreters that talked and shared their voices through your work here. Can you talk about some that really -- and there's so many -- that really made an impact on your work. Some that just stand out, and I know there's so many. Lisa Bowens (23:16): Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think that was one of the treasures for me in doing this research, uncovering or recovering some of the voices of these women who were so powerful in their own right. Because many of them, you know, they not only faced discrimination because of their race, but also because of their gender. And they were called to preach and proclaim the gospel. And they faced a lot of pushback from society at-large, but also from the church. And so when you read their autobiographies, you just get just a glimpse of how powerful they were and how they refuse to be stopped; no matter what, they would not be stopped. And so people like Jarena Lee, Julia Foote, Harriet Jacobs, Maria Stewart, Zilpha Elaw, all of them, I think, made an impact on me as I was reading these stories. Lisa Bowens (24:15): And the fact that many of them used or employed Paul's letters to argue for their right to preach when the church and other people were using Paul's words to silence women, they would come back and say, wait a minute. I'm thinking of Zilpha Elaw in particular, but all of them do this in some sense, but Zilpha talks about, if you look at this historical context in which Paul is writing, you see that there are women, he says, who are laboring with him in the gospel. And so if you look at the historical context, women are preaching, they are prophesying, they are in ministry. And so you can't take what Paul says in one particular place. And she talks about in that particular place in Corinthians, he's addressing a particular congregation. You can't take that passage and use it to justify silencing women for all time in all places. So these women were really remarkable in the way they understood scripture and the way they understood the historical context of scripture and how they were able to marshal scripture to support their own call to ministry, even in the face of ex-communication from their church. Just, just really remarkable women. Sushama Austin-Connor (25:38): It is. Let's focus then on -- Harriet Jacobs was one of the stories that stood out for me. And you talked about her -- really, some of these stories are beyond what is possible to imagine, but... and her story and her use of the one blood doctrine. Can you just talk about Jacobs and how she uses this doctrine? And you know, I'm encouraging people to, if they haven't already read the book, to read the book, just to get into the -- sort of the granular detail. But could you give us some idea of Harriet Jacobs' story? Lisa Bowens (26:17): Yeah. So Harriet Jacobs is a phenomenal woman on several levels. First, she is the first African American woman to write her autobiography. You have other women before her who dictate their autobiographies, but she's the first one to write her autobiography. And her story is published on the eve of the Civil War. And one of the reasons why she writes her story is so that people can see and understand what is happening to African American women in slavery, that they are being sexually abused, they are being raped, and she wants her story to be known so that -- she says in the opening part of the book -- so that the women of the north, the people in the north can understand the great evils that are happening in the south. And so her story is phenomenal because, first of all, she is very candid and she's very forthright on what's happening to her in her life. Lisa Bowens (27:32): And what's happening in other African American women's lives during this time. And she opens herself up to -- opens her story up, which is a very painful story. But one of the things she does in her narrative, which is so powerful, I mean, there's so many powerful elements, but one of the things she does is she shines a bright light on African American women being raped by their enslavers. , so one of the passages that she uses to critique what's happening to her and other black women is Acts 17:26. And this is where Paul says, in Acts -- God has made of one blood all the nations of the earth. So that passage is being used by other African Americans and, you know, before her, and even after her in a positive way to talk about the unity of humanity and because humanity is one, they do not, there's no race superior to the other. Well, Jacobs, in her ingenious move, she cites this passage, but she cites it to critique what's happening to African American women. Lisa Bowens (28:57): And she calls it a libel upon the Heavenly Father what's happening. So God has already made humanity of one blood, but what is happening to African American women is that when white men are raping black women, they are, in a sense, perverting this passage, they are making one blood of humanity, but in a way that goes against what God has called for. God is not called for the raping of black women. So she uses that scripture to critique what's happening to African American women. And it's a really ingenious move, because she says, this is a libel upon the Heavenly Father. What's happening is not right. And she's making a call for people to recognize what's happening and put a stop to it and put and end to it. [water droplet sound] Sushama Austin-Connor (30:05): I'm going to change gears and get you to give us the definition of African American hermeneutics. And if you can define it in relationship to Black theology, like how are they different? How do they build on one another? Do they build on one another? And in what ways? Lisa Bowens (30:24): Yeah, that's a really interesting question. I would say -- so one of the things I'm trying to do in this book is to lift up African American hermeneutics. But African-American hermeneutics as it relates to Paul. And so what I'm trying to do is give a glimpse, if you will, of how African Americans from the 1700s to the mid-20th century, how have they interpreted Paul and his letters? And I think one of the things that comes about from this research is that they're often interpreting Paul in a way that counters the way many white interpreters of their time were interpreting him. So they're offering different understandings of Paul and his letters, different understandings of really what the gospel is. And -- but one of the things that you see, I think, coming back again and again is this theme of God as a liberator in Christ, God as a liberator of the oppressed. Lisa Bowens (31:34): And in that way, I think it very much converges with what Black theology is about -- God as a liberator of the oppressed, right? And so you see that theme, I think, repeatedly in these interpreters, but in different ways. And for them, the gospel that Paul proclaims is a gospel of liberation, which is one of the reasons they gravitate toward his writings, because they see him as a figure of liberation. So I think that emphasis on God as a liberator in Christ is one of the ways that these interpreters, how their writings really merge with Black theology, that we tend to think of, getting into the sixties and seventies. But I think these interpreters foreshadow, anticipate the later Black theology movement in the sense that they were doing and writing about Black theology. Early on, one of the interpreters, Lemuel Haynes -- we talked a little bit about that. One historian calls him a founding father of Black theology. And so, yeah, so I think, I think you'll see, see a number of similarities between Black theology of the sixties and seventies and now, and what happened early that's... Yeah. Sushama Austin-Connor (33:01): Yeah. And that overlap that happens. Dr. Bowens, one of the things that you ask in the book is a body hermeneutic. You ask about a body hermeneutic and you ask, can my Black body interpret Paul, and can Paul interpret my Black body? And I think, again, these are large questions, right? [inaudible] Yeah. I know. I know. And it's fascinating. I mean, this book is fascinating, but did you find or find the answers or the beginning of some answers to that really large question? Lisa Bowens (33:36): Yeah, I would say beginning of answers. Yeah. These interpreters kind of offer, they kind of offer a multitude of answers. So, yeah. So, and that's one of the reasons why I try to lay out in each chapter, like the historical context so that readers could see what's happening as these interpreters are interpreting scripture, like what's happening in the larger society, what's happening in the nation. And what gives rise in a sense to this body hermeneutic? Like, why is it that that question has to be asked? It has to be asked because Black bodies are being devalued and dehumanized. And so this question of -- can Paul interpret my body and can my body interpret Paul -- becomes a really important question in light of the context because Black bodies are constantly being assaulted. And so I think when you read these interpreters, you see that their answers that they give in these writings, for the most part, their answer is yes. Lisa Bowens (34:51): I mean, you do have -- I do talk in the book about a couple of interpreters who say, Paul can't understand my body. You know, [inaudible] and Thurman, but for the most part, these interpreters say, yes, he can, and they answered that question in a variety of ways. Some of them use the language of Paul's language of the spirit of adoption. Their bodies have been adopted by God. They are now children of God. You also have this understanding of the body as sacred, which comes out of this baptismal language that Paul uses. You also have this sense of agency, bodily agency, that they use Paul's letters to talk about being able to use their body, not only just to protest and resist, but also in the spiritual transformation of their bodies as well. Lisa Bowens (35:57): So this body hermeneutic question, I think these interpreters answer in a variety of ways. Another way you see it talked about is that the body is being oppressed from the outside, and this understanding of the body being oppressed by a system, by structures that are outside of itself. And that's important in light of the, you know, the prevalent understanding of that time in which the Black body itself was seen as evil. And you have these interpreters saying, "Nope, it's not our bodies that are evil. It is the system, it is the structure that is oppressing and afflicting us. So they answer this question, I think in a variety of ways. Sushama Austin-Connor (36:47): And for you personally, any definitive understanding or relationship to Paul once now that the book is complete, like any gleanings from your own life and work? Lisa Bowens (37:01): That is a huge question. [laughter] Sushama Austin-Connor (37:03): I know, we can talk about any of these questions for an hour. Lisa Bowens (37:08): I mean, it is, it is. I think, I mean, I definitely want to do more work in this area, but I think one of the things that struck me, I keep going back to these mystical experiences because I think one can get caught up in reading these experiences and saying, oh yeah, this, these were nice experiences that happen. But I think when you see the context in which they happen, and you think about these bodies that were so dehumanized and tortured, and when they talk about how these experiences affected their body, like they say, I look at my hands and my hands look new. I looked at my feet and my feet look new, I look at my body. I mean, I think when you hear, when you see them talking about how their bodies are changed and transformed because of these experiences, I think it gives at least it gives me a deeper appreciation for what these divine encounters meant for them. Like, it wasn't just a feel good type of moment. It was a real transformation of how they saw themselves, like my body matters. And I can say my body matters because it matters to God -- look at how God has touched my body and I can see myself as new. I can say, I'm a chosen vessel by God. I can go forth and proclaim what God has called me to proclaim. And I think when you read their experiences, it just gives at least for me, a deeper appreciation to the power of God and how God was at work in their lives, even in the midst of really horrific circumstances. Sushama Austin-Connor (39:22): Yeah. It -- well, it gives me goosebumps because the language of our bodies mattering and our lives mattering feels like we could be talking about 2021, and we are, and it translates to 2021. And it also gets me to a question that I was going to ask you, Dr. Bowens, about modern interpreters. I know you had to end the book at some place. And so it's sort of -- we started thinking about Dr. King and we, you know, start thinking about the mid-20th century. And I wonder for like, even in the last decade or two, modern interpreters that you're thinking about are reading and then the context of this moment. The moment that we are currently in, you know, Paul and some of these interpreters, and I'm sure new interpreters have something to say. And so who are those new ones that you're following or are modern interpreters that you're following or thinking about? Lisa Bowens (40:22): Yeah, that's a great question. So, one of the interpreters I'm really excited about, and I actually had him as a guest in one of my classes this term, is Esau McCaulley and his book *Reading While Black* and the way he talks about Romans 13, as it relates to a New Testament theology of policing, I think is so amazing. And I think he's doing now what these interpreters were doing in their own context. Like they were showing how Paul was relevant for their contexts. And speaking out against racism and white supremacy. And the thing about these interpreters too, is that many times they were relating the historical context of scripture to their context. And that's what I think Esau does in the way he's talking about Romans 13 and policing and how soldiers during that time often perform the duties of policing, of police that we see today. And so I think he is, I think he's one of the interpreters who've kind of picked up the mantle, if you will, in talking about how Pauline scripture relates to what is happening in our own context in time. So yeah, I'm very excited about his work and yeah, actually we use it in my classes because I see that trajectory continuing in what he's doing. Sushama Austin-Connor (41:57): Yeah. That's exciting. Lisa Bowens (41:58): Another interpreter is Dennis Edwards. His book is called *Might from the Margins.* In *Might from the Margins*, the gospel's power to turn the tables on injustice. And he has several chapters in there where he talks about, I mean, he's looking at scripture overall, so not just Paul, but there's a couple of places that, where he does talk about Paul and one particular passage, he talks about the power of anger and how anger can be used positively for justice. And he gives this episode from Paul's life in which Paul is angry and cries out against the injustice that he endures. So I think he's also another interpreter who's kind of picking up where these interpreters have left off in talking about and using Paul and scripture to relate to what is happening in our own context in terms of injustice to African Americans. So yeah, I think those two, I would lift up as people who are caring for him. Sushama Austin-Connor (43:12): That's wonderful. Also curious what you want readers to glean from this work. And I think, you know, us in The Distillery in this art department, so, well, it will be lots of different types of people that listen to this -- clergy, mid-career, early seminarians, students, people who are interested in Bible and religion. And what do you hope people get from this book? Lisa Bowens (43:39): Yeah. So, my hope is a couple of things. Well, a few things, actually. One of the things I hope is that this book opens a conversation or continues the conversation about the relationship between Christianity, racism, scripture, and white supremacy, because I think the church, and I mean the church more broadly, there's a history that we have to reckon with. And my hope is that this book will allow a deeper understanding of how deep the wounds are and how deep the church has been involved in facilitating racism. So that's one of my hopes. I hope it will help us to have an honest conversation about this and not just try to pretend like, oh, it really wasn't all that bad, but I hope it allows us to have a real honest, deep conversation about our history. And then I also hope that part of it too, would be, it would help us in having that honest, hard conversation, because it is a hard conversation to have, that we will, in some ways, be able to see how to move forward. Like how do we, now that we know this history and we're having these hard conversations, how do we move forward? How do we go forward? The other thing I hope that readers will get is I hope they will get inspired because even though these stories are, you know, they are painful to read and they are hard, but they're also inspiring because you see how these interpreters, in the midst of such odds, hold to their faith in God. They refuse to give up, they refuse to be deterred. They are so strong and so courageous in the midst of everything they face. And so I hope that people will be inspired by that. Like even in this moment in which we live, it seems like there are so many obstacles. There are so many challenges. How in the world would we get through this? I'm hoping that we can hear these interpreters' voices and saying -- and I think, you know, I think about Hebrews 11, these crowd cloud of witnesses, right? They are, they are in our corner. Like they are pulling for us. We did it in our generation. We struggled, we protested, we resist it and now we're pulling for you. And so I hope that people will get inspired by their stories and, and hear it as, hear their voices as cheerleaders, as people who have left us a very rich legacy that we have to continue. We have to, need to, we must continue their, yeah, their struggle, their fight. I was inspired doing the research myself. And so I hope that people will be inspired as well in reading their stories and their journey, because their journey -- they're part of us. We're a part of them, we are part of the same people of God. And so I hope that readers will take that away. Yeah. Sushama Austin-Connor (47:36): They're pulling for us. Just -- I feel that so deeply. It's so true. It's so true. It's so true. And I know, you know, working with students and young people and, you know, the gift of knowing that they're pulling for us is just, so... I feel that so deeply. Thank you. Oh my goodness. Yeah. [water droplet sound] Lisa Bowens (48:03): Well, I'm working on a few projects. One, I'm actually a co-editor of an upcoming volume with Dennis Edwards called *Do Black Lives Matter: How Christian Scriptures Speak to Black Empowerment. And so it's a collection of essays from African American scholars in different areas. So, prayerfully, hopefully, that will be out within the next year or so. [percussive music begins] Working on another book with Scott McKnight and Joseph Modica on *Preaching Romans from Here* in which we are having different groups talk about how to preach Romans from their context. So, Native American, Asian American, African American, different contexts. How do you preach Romans? So we have essays and we'll have sermons in that volume. And then I'm working on a couple of commentaries, one on First and Second Thessalonians and the other on Second Corinthians. Sushama Austin-Connor (49:08): I'm so grateful. Thank you for this conversation. And just for just really this, this tremendous work, this is a beautiful book. Thank you very much. You're a gift, and this is such a pleasure and we're so lucky to have you at Princeton Seminary. Lisa Bowens (49:24): Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Dayle Rounds (49:26): You've been listening to The Distillery. Interviews are conducted by me, Dayle Rounds. Sushama Austin-Connor (49:31): And me, Sushama Austin-Connor. Shari Oosting (49:33): And I'm Shari Oosting. Amar Peterman (49:36): I'm Amar Peterman, and I am in charge of production. New Speaker (49:38): Like what you're hearing? Subscribe at Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or your preferred podcast app. The Distillery is a production of Princeton Theological Seminary's Office of Continuing Education. You can find out more at thedistillery.ptsem.edu. Thanks for listening. [water droplet sound]

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THIS COULD BE IT - The Bible Contains Fiction!?!? (S2E07)

Campus One80 Radio

Play Episode Listen Later May 21, 2021 55:42

We don't actually address this question, but Jeff does claim that the parables of Jesus are fictions. Maybe we'll follow it up in the future if you e-mail us at thispodcast@campusone80.com . Also, we've got a trivia question - Which US President weighed only 100 lbs when they were in office? E-mail us at the link above to answer for a chance to win a prize. STEVE - YouTube and Katie Morton (on YouTube) TIRZAH - Shipworm podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shipworm/id1561888136?i=1000518641152 JEFF - A Church Called TOV by Scott McKnight - https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=a+church+called+tov&qid=1621569563&sr=8-1

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Interview with Renegade Station

In The Country with Dave Woods

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 11, 2021 34:00

Comprised of Luanne Carl (singer, bassist), Russell Carl (guitarist), Kent Nixon (guitarist, vocalist), and Scott McKnight (drummer), Alberta's Renegade Station’s name is symbolic of the group’s unconventional approach to their music and sense of independence with a nod to the vintage working steam train that is a tourist attraction in Stettler. Their new single (April 2021) is called "Free Free Free". In 2018, Renegade Station released their hit single Who’s Gonna Love Me Tonight from their Along for the Ride album which garnered numerous nominations including Top 50 on the charts and the ACMA (now Country Music Alberta) Single of the Year. In addition, the group won back-to-back Association of Country Music in Alberta, as Group of the Year (2015, 2016) as well as the ACMA Fan’s Choice of the Year in 2015 and garnered a CCMA nomination for songwriter of the year for their tune 2:15. Luanne was also nominated for CCMA Bass Player of the Year in 2016. The band has also shared the stage with the likes of George Canyon, Carolyn Dawn Johnson, David Lee Murphy, Emerson Drive, and Bobby Wills. The band came together after meeting and see each other perform at numerous events in their local area. They immediately connected and the band was formed. As they continued on their musical journey together, not only as a band but in friendship too, they became the “go to” group for numerous events across Alberta. Their harmonious energy became contagious among anyone that attended the events.

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Ep. 6: Leslie + Scott

Starring Cupid

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 26, 2021 47:31

This week we're playing basketball and dribbling men as we look at Leslie Wright and Scott McKnight, from Just Wright. Find out why Zama thinks Leslie is awesome, how Hollywood only loves undesirable women when they're beneficial, and what this story does better than the average fan fiction. In this week's who's your fave it's all about crushing on popstars and has-beens. Be sure to vote for your favourite couple on our Twitter poll @ StarringCupid. Follow for more content and podcast updates.

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S2W16 Beach Talk #23: Vaccines, The Supreme Court, RZIM and Merrick Garland

The Beached White Male Podcast with Ken Kemp

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 27, 2021 39:05

Ken and Carla meet again on that imaginary deck in Newport Beach - this week to talk about Covid vaccines, the anti-vaxxers, conspiracy theories, and Ron DeSantis' plan to lower Florida flags to half-mast in honor of Rush Limbaugh. The Supreme Court unanimously approved the release of the former President's tax returns to investigators, opening the door for Cyrus Vance to proceed in earnest. The late Apologist Ravi Zacharias, who shares Ken's Alma Mater, made some sad news this week - author Scott McKnight has some things to say about the current state of the evangelical church. Carla brings us up to date on Mayor Pete - and the spotlight turns to Joe Biden's pick for Attorney General, Merrick Garland. Support the show (http://thebeachedwhitemale.com)

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Modern Expressions of the Kingdom of God

Pints & Perspecitves

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 24, 2020 43:08

We have been discussing the kingdom of God for several weeks now, but what do we do with that? How do we live in light of the kingdom of God? Well in this episode Pastor Cullen and Dr. Ben Blackwell discuss modern expressions of the kingdom of God in Walter Rauschenbusch, Scott McKnight, and Jurgen Moltmann! Happy Listening! Our Socials: WellHouse Church Website: mywellhouse.church Instagram: @mywellhouse.church Facebook: @mywellhouse.church Youtube: Wellhouse Church - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1LssDbm_kj5DfEqPI5NIBA/featured Pastor Cullen Instagram: @PastorCullen Facebook: @Pastor Cullen Youtube: @PastorCullen - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfUd_dvOxPurHMfaBUjF9jw Clayton Instagram: @jcware99 Facebook: Clayton Ware Our Identity: WellHouse Church is a church seeking to reimagine what the church is. Too many people have been hurt by a church in their past, because church has become something that it was never meant to be: an event or building that we attend. At WellHouse, we believe that the people of God are the church and that the love of God should be experienced through the people of God. So, WellHouse has returned to a New Testament expression of our faith by meeting in homes and dedicating ourselves to: the teaching of the scriptures, the fellowship of the believers, the breaking of bread together, and praying together for one another. We are focused on being a genuine expression of Christian hospitality and service to our community and the people of our community. At WellHouse we want to be a place where people can Be Real, Be Relational, and Be Restored. As our leadership was dreaming up this vision, we looked at Scripture and saw that the earliest expressions of the church met in homes and it was rare that all of the believers were together. Today, most churches have found themselves spending a large portion of their budget on buildings that they rarely use. Not WellHouse. We want to keep our overhead low so we can spend our money on the things that matter, being the hands and feet of Jesus. So, we meet in the homes of our members for the majority of our meetings. Once per month, we all come together at a rented facility to devote our selves together as the whole church for the purpose of worshipping God together.

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Ep. 5: Blue Parakeet Part 2

Kindred Sessions

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 13, 2020 48:15

Join host Mike Mumford with special guest Brandon Evans for Part 2 of their discussion about the book Blue Parakeet by Scott McKnight. If you have any questions or thoughts, email us at kindredsessionspodcast@gmail.com.

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Ep. 4: Blue Parakeet Part 1

Kindred Sessions

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 6, 2020 54:02

Welcome to episode 4 of Kindred Sessions. Join host Mike Mumford with special guests Brandon Evans and Rob Caliger as they talk about the book Blue Parakeet by Scott McKnight. If you have any questions or thoughts, email us at kindredsessionspodcast@gmail.com.

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JESUS, Creed and Gospel 2

Pilgrim Church

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 19, 2020 35:45

The Story that Summons What is the core message we are to share as a church? "gospeling declares that Jesus is that rightful Lord, gospeling summons people to turn from their idols to worship and live under that Lord who saves, and gospeling actually puts us in the co-mediating and co-ruling tasks under our Lord Jesus. When we reduce the gospel to only personal salvation, as soterians are tempted to do, we tear the fabric out of the Story of the Bible and we cease even needing the Bible I don't know of any other way to put it." (158, McKnight, TKJG). As a New Year's journey in this "JESUS, Creed & Gospel" Series at Pilgrim, we are learning, among others, from teacher and theologian Scott McKnight. Don't miss our second teaching in this series. Sunday, 10 AM

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5 Gospel Podcasts Your Need To Hear & The Future of the Podcast

The Gospel for Planet Earth w/ Karl and Susie Gessler

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 27, 2019 26:46

If your Bible reading has become a tedious activity, it is time for a fresh challenge. This week, I am providing you with five striking podcast episodes that have profoundly shaped my understanding of the Bible in recent years. I am sure that they will inspire and challenge you as well. We will also look back on our podcasting year 2019 and look forward to what we plan for 2020 on the Gospel for Planet Earth Podcast.Blog Post: https://www.karlgessler.com/post/5-talks-christians-should-hearThe Gospel For Planet Earth on YOUTUBE:http://bit.ly/THEGOSPELFORPLANETEARTHOur Family Vlog:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAhKxpfyLbAOur MUSIC Channel:http://bit.ly/KARLMUSICLeave a Comment, ask a question, and get FREE music!https://www.karlgessler.com/contactShow Your Love! Become a Podcast Partner!Patreon.com/karlgesslerShare your thoughts on today's discussion and join the larger conversation on our Gospel For Planet Earth facebook page.www.facebook.com/TheGospel4earthSupport the show (https://www.patreon.com/karlgessler)

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Christoformity, Glory, Hope

Sermons – Roots Covenant Church

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 22, 2019

These three words, Christoformity, Glory, and Hope, represent the basic arch of Paul’s theological conviction for a unified multiethnic family of Jesus followers. Through what Scott McKnight calls “Christoformity” or the process of becoming like Christ in self-sacrificing ways, the Weak and the Strong – Jews and Gentiles–bring Glory to God when they give up…

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Scott McKnight - The Canadian government's responsibility when it comes to traveling abroad

Roy Green Show

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 25, 2019 17:23

Does the Canadian government have to help citizens stuck abroad? A look at the rules. Guest: Scott McKnight, PhD candidate of the University of Toronto See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The Jesus Creed - Feat. Dr. Scot McKnight

BibleProject

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 20, 2019 68:43

In part one (0:00-12:00), the guys discuss Scot’s academic background and writing habits. In part two (12:00-27:10), Tim shares how important Scot’s book, Interpreting The Synoptic Gospels, has been to him. In part three (27:10-39:30), the guys talk about Scot's most well-known book, Jesus Creed. In part four (39:30-54:10), Tim shares his thoughts on Scot’s book, A Community Called Atonement. In part five (54:10-end), Tim shares how impactful Scott's book, A Fellowship of Differents, has been to him Show Resources: Scot's Wikipedia page with links to all his books: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scot_McKnight Scot's bio: https://www.seminary.edu/faculty/scot-mcknight/ Scot's podcast, Kingdom Roots: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kingdom-roots-with-scot-mcknight/id1078739516 Show Produced by: Dan Gummel Show music: Defender Instrumental, Tents The Truth about Flight, Love, and BB Guns, Foreknown Bird in Hand, Foreknown Excellent, Beautiful Eulogy Scream Pilots, Moby Powered and distributed by Simplecast.

Ep 16: Dr. Matthew J. Thomas conversation/ Faith vs Works? Grace vs Law? Have we completely misunderstood the Apostle Paul?

Deep Talks: Exploring Theology and Meaning Making

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 2, 2019 103:10

Is it possible that we've completely misunderstood the Apostle Paul...and perhaps even the entire Bible as a result? What do these ideas like "faith and works" or "grace vs. the Law" really mean? Did even Martin Luther and John Calvin misunderstand them?Our guest in today's conversation is Dr. Matthew J. Thomas. Matthew has Doctor of Philosophy in Theology from the University of Oxford and is an expert in New Testament and early church history. He's written a book that Scott McKnight awarded as one the top 3 theology books of 2018 entitled "Paul's Works of The Law in the Perspective of Second Century Reception." He's taught at St. Patrick's Seminary, Franciscan University, and Regent College. You can purchase Matthew's book here (warning: it is currently at a pretty hefty academic price tag):https://www.amazon.com/Perspective-Reception-Wissenschaftliche-Untersuchungen-Testament/dp/3161562755/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=matthew+j.+thomas+paul&qid=1554215169&s=gateway&sr=8-1 You can become a patron supporter on Patreon and ensure that this podcast and the videos we're creating can keep happening here (plus there's a bunch of fun benefits for patrons!):https://www.patreon.com/deeptalkstheologypodcast To Listen/Subscribe on iTunes:https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/deep-talks-exploring-theology-and-meaning-making/id1401730159?mt=2 Deep Talks also has a YouTube channel with other unique content! Check that out here and subscribe:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2yCyOMUeem-cYwliC-tLJg?view_as=subscriber As always, you're questions, feedback, and comments are welcome! Thanks for listening, and please consider reviewing on iTunes to help others find out about what we're doing!

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Dilly! Dilly!

Watermark Church Tampa

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 23, 2019 47:10

Scott Mcknight

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Book Review: Kingdom Conspiracy

Theology Doesn't Suck!

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 24, 2018 56:35

This week we are discussing the book Kingdom Conspircay by Scott McKnight. This was an interesting book that made for a challenging conversation: we hope you enjoy! Get the book here: https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Conspiracy-Returning-Radical-Mission/dp/0801097851 If you have any questions or comments, get in touch with us through our website: theologydoesntsuck.com

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Debating the Kingdom (part 2): Kingdom Conspiracy

Westpoint 2017

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 4, 2018 67:45

Is the Kingdom of God about social action, signs and wonders, both or more? In his book, Kingdom Conspiracy, Scott McKnight argues that ‘Kingdom’ is the biblical term most misused by Christians today. Scott offers a sizzling biblical corrective and radical vision for the role of the local church in the kingdom of God. Through a presentation, panel discussion and Q&A, this seminar is designed to stimulate and model healthy theological debate.

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All About Aloe Vera - with Scott McKnight

Know The Cause Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 10, 2018 16:36

Guest: Scott McKnight 00.36 Introduce Scott McKnight 02:00 Bill Lee story 03:20 International Aloe Science Council 05:50 Aloe is both topical and ingestible. Good for intestinal health 07:14 Started standards in the aloe industry 09:40 What people need to know about aloe 11:20 Most important thing to take from this conversation 13:25 Processing aloe 15:10 Aloe Apex

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The Challenge to Philemon - with Dr. Scott McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 15, 2017 33:06

The Challenge to Philemon

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The Challenge to Philemon - with Dr. Scott McKnight

Asbury Seminary Kentucky Chapel - Video

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 14, 2017 33:06

The Challenge to Philemon

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The Challenge to Philemon - with Dr. Scott McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 14, 2017 33:06

The Challenge to Philemon

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The Challenge of Onesimus - with Dr. Scott McKnight

Asbury Seminary Kentucky Chapel - Video

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 14, 2017 37:46

The Challenge of Onesimus

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The Challenge of Onesimus - with Dr. Scott McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 13, 2017 37:46

The Challenge of Onesimus

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The Challenge of Onesimus - with Dr. Scott McKnight