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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 7, 2024 44:44

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://youtu.be/u94-UCMB14kThe fact that abuse occurs at all in churches is horrific. What's worse—often, the abusers are protected rather than exposed. And the victims bear crushing trauma of both the abuse and the cover-up. But there is a better way. On this edition of The Roys Report, internationally renowned psychologist Diane Langberg joins Julie to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God's People. Not only does the book explain why churches are failing miserably in this area, it also explains how to fix the problem. Known around the world for her expertise and care as a Christian leader, Dr. Langberg has counseled many victims of high-profile ministry leaders. She knows the evils of sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and rape committed by church predators—and now confronts this devastating evil. In our discussion based on her latest book, which is available this month to supporters of The Roys Report, Dr. Langberg unveils what she's learned about how churches cause harm. Why do Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God's people? She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ—not just in what they teach, but also in how they care for themselves and others. This insightful conversation offers a small preview of what we'll be hearing from Dr. Langberg at Restore Conference coming up in February, as she is one of more than a dozen leading Christian voices who will share. Listen in to hear her heart, with wisdom from walking God's narrow path for many decades. Guests Dr. Diane Langberg Dr. Diane Langberg is a globally recognized psychologist with 53 years of clinical experience working with trauma patients. She has trained caregivers from six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. For 29 years she directed her own practice in the suburbs of Philadelphia. Now, in partnership with Dr. Phil Monroe, Langberg, Monroe & Associates continues this work which includes more than a dozen therapists. Dr. Langberg has authored numerous books including Redeeming Power and When the Church Harms God's People. Learn more at her website. Show Transcript SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. DIANE LANGBERG JULIE ROYS 00:04 Internationally recognized psychologist, Dr Diane Langberg, has encountered the crushing trauma of sexual abuse, domestic abuse and rape and its cover up. Even more tragic, she’s encountered all of this within the church,. But as she explains today, there is a better way. JULIE ROYS 00:21 Welcome to The Roys report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and today Dr Diane Langberg joins me to discuss her new book, When the Church Harms God’s People. The fact that abuse occurs at all in the church is horrific. But as listeners to this podcast know, abuse is happening in the church, and too often, the perpetrators are protected, and the victims bear the brunt of not just the abuse but the cover. In her new book, Dr Langberg confronts this horrific evil, and she unveils what she’s learned about how churches cause harm and why Christian communities often foster unhealthy leaders who end up hurting rather than protecting God’s people. She also offers hope for the future, describing how churches can reflect Christ, not just in what they teach, but in how they care for themselves and for others. JULIE ROYS 01:12 We’ll get to this insightful interview in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, The RESTORE Conference, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you’re someone who’s experienced church hurt or abuse, there are few places you can go to pursue healing. Similarly, if you’re an advocate, counselor or pastor, there are a few conferences designed to equip you to minister to people traumatized in the church, but The RESTORE Conference this February 7 & 8 in Phoenix, Arizona is designed to do just that. Joining us will be leading abuse survivor advocates like Mary Demuth and Dr David Pooler, an expert in adult clergy sexual abuse. Also joining us will be Scott McKnight, author of A Church Called Tov, Diane Langberg, a psychologist and trauma expert, yours truly and more. For more information, just go to RESTORE2025.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquart, are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM. JULIE ROYS 01:12 Well again, joining me today is Dr Diane Langberg, an internationally recognized psychologist with more than five decades of clinical experience with trauma victims. She’s also trained caregivers on six continents in responding to trauma and the abuse of power. She’s also written several books, including her latest, When the Church Harms God’s People. So Diane, welcome. It is such a pleasure to have you join me. DIANE LANGBERG 02:58 Thank you. It’s an honor to be here. JULIE ROYS 03:00 I’ve said this to you before in person. I don’t know that I’ve ever said it in a podcast, but I do consider you the matriarch of the abuse survivor community and someone who is not just special because of your trauma experience, but I think because of your faith that has endured really trudging through some amazingly toxic stuff. So again, just such an honor and a pleasure to be with you. And I know last year at RESTORE you weren’t able to be with us because you were writing this book. So I am thrilled that you’re done and able to be with us at the RESTORE coming up in Phoenix. DIANE LANGBERG 03:39 I’m thrilled to be done too. JULIE ROYS 03:43 I hope you appreciate that we’re going to be in Phoenix instead of Chicago when it’s February. So your book talks about when the church harms God’s people. And obviously the church is supposed to be a place of healing and of comfort, but it ceased to be this in some cases. And I know there’s a myriad of reasons for why this has happened, but if you could kind of put your finger on ‘here’s the main reason that I see contributing to what we’re seeing in the church today’, what would you say that is? DIANE LANGBERG 04:15 So, rather than the love in those places, we are protecting a system that we think is truth and makes us safe and all those kinds of things. But last I checked, Jesus didn’t die for systems, JULIE ROYS 04:34 So often it’s the shepherd that is at fault for preying on the sheep. I mean, here we have a shepherd that’s supposed to protect sheep, and instead, we have shepherds who are preying on them, which is just the antithesis of who Jesus is, the antithesis of who they are supposed to be. But sometimes, in fact, probably in 100% of these cases, when there’s a. shepherd who is not really a shepherd, but he’s a wolf parading as one, it’s deception that’s happening. Why is it, how can we tell whether a shepherd who can be incredibly charming, right? and say all the right words and all those things? How can we tell if this person is actually a shepherd, or if he’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing? DIANE LANGBERG 05:25 Well, I think the way that Jesus put it is by their fruits you will know them. I think that we have fallen into the trap, I suppose, of measuring fruit by success, which, if we measure fruit by success, then Jesus failed. JULIE ROYS 05:45 So what would you say fruit is? DIANE LANGBERG 05:47 It’s likeness to him. I mean when we’re taught about the fruit of the Spirit, it means someone who loves. It means someone who treats others with respect and kindness and protects the sheep because of their preciousness, eternally to the shepherd. JULIE ROYS 06:10 And yet, so often it is true when I get pushback for the type of reporting that we do, exposing someone who has been a very bad shepherd, that is often what I hear, what about the fruit? And when they say fruit, they mean the numbers, right? DIANE LANGBERG 06:29 Yeah. Number and money and fame. That’s fruit which is not fruit of Christ. JULIE ROYS 06:35 One of the questions that I get asked a lot, and I think it varies from person to person. But they ask, were these predator pastors? Did they begin bad, and they just conned people the whole time into their positions? Or are these people who maybe had good intentions to begin with, maybe were good people to begin with, and the pressures of the system began to change who they were. What would you say to those who asked that question? DIANE LANGBERG 07:14 Well, I think the first honest thing I would say is I don’t know, but I think that there is a spectrum of some are this way. Some are this way. Some start out really intending to do good in things. But part of what runs through, I think a lot of it, is that certainly the Christians in general, and places like seminaries and things do not put a lot of expectation or whatever on who you are. It’s what you know how to do and do well, and how well it is happening and how big it is. But again, if you go back to the Gospels and look at the things that Jesus spoke, you know so much of it is about character. And by their fruit you will know them. And the fruit he’s talking about is not how many members you have in your pews. It’s your character, it’s your heart, it’s the way you speak, it’s the way you treat the least of these, those are all the things that measured him, and they are to measure us. I think we’ve lost our way, and I think that’s a global issue. JULIE ROYS 08:28 Do you think too the mega church movement, and I’ve been asked this as well, are mega churches just inherently bad? And I’m like, Well, no, I mean, there are some mega churches that do-good work, and there’s people who have been saved through these mega churches, who have been discipled through them. But I think for the pastor, I have seen that it seems like all the pressures in a mega church are in the wrong direction. I’m curious what you would say that you’ve seen with our churches today, and whether they help spiritual formation for these leaders, or whether they seem to work in the opposite direction. DIANE LANGBERG 09:09 The pressure is terrible, the expectations are extravagant, and everything has God’s name on it. So if you aren’t meeting the pressure, and you aren’t bringing in lots of people, and people aren’t talking about how wonderful you are, you’re not doing a good job. If those are the criteria, then Jesus didn’t do a good job. And so the care of the shepherd, the personality of the shepherd, the heart that not is just given in words, but indeed. All of those things show us who a shepherd is, and we are measuring by outcome. I mean again, you go back to the cross or to the resurrection, there were not very many people about looking for him. I think that we love the institution, and it feels safe to us, and it feels like God must be on our side, because we have 3000 members or whatever, when, in fact, he’s called us to love and to patience and to self-control and things like that. That’s how we look like him, how we serve him, and how we woo others to him. JULIE ROYS 10:38 Well it is centered around a celebrity so often. And this can happen in large churches, mega churches. This can happen in small churches, where the pastor can be the big fish in the small pond, just as much as you know that the celebrity pastor in this this big institution. And I think when we complain about the pastor or about the institution, we also have to look at ourselves, don’t we? because we’re the consumers of these type of churches. We are the ones that give money to these churches. What responsibility do we have as lay people to ensure that our churches are better? DIANE LANGBERG 11:19 I’m not even sure that I would start thinking about it that way, because to ensure our churches are better means to ensure a system is good, and Jesus didn’t die for systems. So the question is number one for me, on my face, asking him where I am not like him to teach me that and to teach me how to become more like Him in those ways. Part of what doing that and living there, not just doing it once or something, but living in that space with God also sharpens our eyes and our ears, and we begin to recognize things that may be painted beautifully but look nothing like Christ. I think, until that happens, the system is evidence of God, which is not whether it’s a church or a political one, or whatever it is, none of that is his fruit. It’s who we are in the places that we live that is to be his fruit. JULIE ROYS 12:31 Something I’ve really appreciated about you, and I’m hearing it in this interview, but it’s also in your writings. One of my favorite book actually, of yours is that little. It’s just a tiny paperback book on meditations for counselors. And I have found that it’s not just meditations for counselors, it’s meditations really for anybody who’s in work that does take them through some of the grossest evil that’s out there, and how to protect your soul. And I so appreciate that. I know I read it. I said this at the last RESTORE,, because I went through a very difficult time prior to it, and I read those meditations, I went through that book twice, just because I found that I needed to protect my soul, so carefully, because, again, the pressures are just not in the right direction. And I know my own flesh when I encounter these systems, makes me so angry, and you can’t, not when you, when you hear the way that people have abused. DIANE LANGBERG 13:40 Jesus cracked whips and turns tables over. So I don’t think he likes it much either. JULIE ROYS 13:46 And that’s something that I say regularly, and people are like, You sound angry, and I’ll be like, Why aren’t you angry? Like this should make us angry genuinely. Yet at the same time, Satan will use that as an opportunity in our own hearts. And you talk about in your book about the role that deception plays. This was so good, and let’s start with the predator himself. Right? How deception works with someone who is again preying on the sheep rather than protecting the sheep. Often, I wonder if they even admit to themselves what they’re doing. DIANE LANGBERG 14:29 Often not. I think that, I mean, obviously we are deceptive creatures. There’s no exceptions. The only exception was Christ, and so we carry that around. And that’s, I mean, it was started in Eden. I didn’t do it. That girl did it. JULIE ROYS 14:53 Blame it on the Lord. DIANE LANGBERG 14:54 Right, of course, but it’s been in us since the beginning. And so our go to thing is when somebody points the finger at us about anything, whether it’s true or not, our first thing is to take care of ourselves. That’s our automatic response, and if what they have given us is true, we have to make it untrue. There’s some way we want to make it untrue because it disturbs us. If we make it true, we don’t want them to think about that. It’s going to hurt our job. It’s going to do whatever. So I don’t think we have really understood the depth of that and its claws on us. And I think that that makes us very vulnerable. JULIE ROYS 15:47 Yeah, I’m still stunned. James McDonald, who I reported on back. I mean, it started in 2018 but then he was fired from his church in 2019 and most of the elders stepped down. He is out there now today, even after assaulting a 59-year-old woman and breaking her femur, he is still out there proclaiming his innocence, and even with that blaming it on PTSD that he got from me reporting and this 59-year-old woman supposedly triggered, but by the way, just curious of your professional opinion on PTSD being triggered in a situation like that, to actually assault somebody? DIANE LANGBERG 16:29 It’s a great cover up on their side. JULIE ROYS 16:33 And what’s shocking is he got a professional counselor in court to say that. DIANE LANGBERG 16:40 If someone has been doing terrible things and actually really begins to see it and is hit by what they have done and grieving by what they have done, having them look like they have PTSD would be expected, but it’s at their own hands that it’s there. It’s not you who did this or said this, therefore I feel this which many abusers would do. JULIE ROYS 17:06 and it is interesting how the blame often goes everywhere, except on the one person who’s caused it. Let’s talk about deception now with the abused and even with systems. I mean, it does always, I find it difficult to wrap my head around although I know it happens and I believe it happens, but the idea that somebody could be sexually abusing you, and yet you think that this is somehow okay spiritually, like you’re a Christian and you’re able to believe the lies that are told you. Talk about that dynamic and how that plays into it. DIANE LANGBERG 17:51 Well, I would say first of all that I don’t think we have really very much understanding of how deep deception is in all of us. No exceptions. No exception is Jesus Christ, and we do it quickly and easily. And anybody who’s raised children realizes it takes about two seconds after birth of them to figure it out. But you don’t have to teach them. It’s there. And so the way that we think is flawed, and I don’t think we start with that premise. We know other people where it’s flawed, but we’re doing the right thinking, and we don’t expose or look at ourselves in those ways. So I think we have very little understanding of the depth of deception in individual humans, often on a daily basis, and then how that shapes and controls systems which only reinforce the deception that we have because we like the system. So it’s here since the beginning. It’s got deep roots. DIANE LANGBERG 19:20 When I was a young girl, one of my grandmothers lived in the mountains of West Virginia, and I was staying with her for a couple of days, and she said to me, go downstairs to the cellar and bring up the clothes that we were washing. So I do, and we’re talking about a dirt floor cellar and the whole thing. So I go down into the cellar to get the clothes, and I started crying and screaming, and my grandmother came running, and I came running up the stairs. She turned on the lights, and she said, Watch. And then she said to me, if you turn on the lights, the rats will run. And that came back to me some years ago; in terms of deception, in organizations, in myself, in leaders, in whatever, turning on the lights. And that’s what Jesus did and does – rats run! And then we have to make a choice. Number one, are we going to turn on the light? which most of us are very uncomfortable. I mean, I don’t need him. I get that turn on the light, and they will run. JULIE ROYS 20:32 So good. I know at RESTORE in 2022 you made the comment that says how to when you were addressing how to recognize a wolf in the church, and you said, Well, one way is to not become one. And I saw some pushback to that. I thought it was a fantastic point because I think we all have this, and if we deny that we have it, that’s almost the scariest situation, because if you are not attending to your own heart, that’s when I think you are most likely to fall into this. But some people said, Oh, wait, isn’t this sin leveling? Because it takes a special kind of evil to be a pedophile or to sexually abuse someone, and not all of us are there. Speak to those folks who were saying that, and I think you know, and I understand where they’re coming from. What would you say to them? DIANE LANGBERG 21:36 Well, I think, first of all, sin in itself is on a continuum. I mean, some sins do hideous damage to people that all the help in the world isn’t going to undo. You know, it’s not going to go away, really, until they see the face of Jesus. There are other things that we do, that we see, and we stop doing, or other people see us stop and we change. And things like, it’s all on a continuum. And the problem is, if you have, let’s say, as an adolescent, you start doing things to cover up things, which is pretty common in adolescence, frankly. Did you do this? No, I didn’t do this. Were you in this place? No, I was not. So forth. JULIE ROYS 22:35 I’m not sure it’s just adolescents either. DIANE LANGBERG 22:37 Oh I know it’s not. The point is that it’s very young, and it happens when you can have a toddler. You ask them, “Did they do something? Did you spill this? No, you know, darn sure they were. JULIE ROYS 22:51 It reminds me of my grandson who, four-year-old grandson who was asked if he did something. He said, No, my mind made me do that. My mind told me to do that. DIANE LANGBERG 23:04 Well, that’s a keeper number one and number two, I mean, teach him when he has a different level brain to look at himself. But yes, it’s in all of us. And so when I said that what I’m saying is, don’t live even minorly in the way that perpetrators live. Don’t excuse harm to others. Doesn’t have to be sexual abused, It could be a rude person. Don’t excuse that rudeness. Don’t treat other people as if they have no value or they can easily be discarded or whatever. DIANE LANGBERG 23:43 It is the things that grow and control if we keep doing them that we don’t theoretically want to do. And that’s what I mean by that. Look at yourself and we are very good at saying, Well, I did do this, but I didn’t do that. We do that all the time, and we’re leveling it, and we’re not looking at ourselves in the light when we do that. That’s what we’re called to do. JULIE ROYS 24:16 I love that you say, put rudeness up there and not honoring people as made in God’s image. I find sometimes it’s hard to remember that even the perpetrator was made in God’s image. And someone who’s taught me a great deal about that is Lori Anne Thompson. I have never heard her dehumanize another human being. Again, for those who don’t know her, she was one of the victims of sexual abuse by Ravi Zacharias. I’ve never heard her do that, and I find being around her makes me a better person, because I always hear her honoring every person. Not that she won’t call them words that they rightly have owned, but to remember that every single person is made in God’s image and treat them. , DIANE LANGBERG 25:09 Yes, you will never meet somebody who is not, even if they’ve got their bodies six feet waiting in hell. They were made in the image of God. JULIE ROYS 25:23 It reminds me of CS Lewis, who said, “We will never meet a mere mortal. DIANE LANGBERG 25:28 Right? Yes, which does not mean being easy on it. That’s one of the places many people get confused. If I think this way, then I but actually, if you really think that way and love somebody, I mean they’re dancing in hell, for crying out loud, if they’re abusing children or something like that. The gift to them is the truth and turning on the lights so the rats run . JULIE ROYS 25:56 Absolutely. And repentance is a gift. And the best thing we can do is call them to repentance, and I try to keep that in the forefront of my work too, that that is always my hope. Do I want them to be removed from spiritual positions? Yes, but ultimately we pray for their soul. Ultimately we pray that they would repent. JULIE ROYS 26:19 When you talk about the deception that operates in these systems. There’s a lot of, I mean, even psychologically, what’s going on with, I think, the staff, with the people, the lay people, as they hear things. And you talked about something called Truth Default Theory. Would you explain what that is and how that often is in operation when these things begin to get revealed? DIANE LANGBERG 26:51 The best way to find out what that is to read that section of the book, frankly. And it’s not a short thing to explain, so to speak. But people choose to lie because they think the outcome will be good. If you tell the truth of a big mess, the outcome will be bad, which there’s some truth to that . You’re going to blow something up if you tell the truth. It’ll make a mess, and everything else. And so I think that people want to keep the system okay. And so you’ll see these places or whatever, where the leader has been sexually abusive, maybe for years and years, and they got rid of the leader, but they don’t go any deeper. They don’t go any deeper into it because this is the church, and we want it to be, we want it to thrive, and we’re glad that that stopped and all that kind of stuff. And we make it shallow. It’s not shallow. You can’t do harm like abuse or live with that harm for years or months or whatever, and then just walk away and be fine. It’s not a possibility. And so part of that is understanding the different ways that people hold on to systems. Now, this is my church. I love it. I’m going to protect it. Yes, he did those things, yes, they’re terrible, but we fired him, and that’s all. It’s shallow in terms of really understanding. JULIE ROYS 28:37 And when we have this vested interest, we do seem to try, and we’ve seen this a lot, we seem to choose who we believe. And so often, I think people are just predisposed to believing the person who has the position of spiritual authority, and usually the victim is someone we’ve never heard of and often, one of the first things that the system does to protect their basically, this is their money maker, right? This is their image as a church or as a ministry, is that they will denigrate the person who’s bringing whether it’s a reporter, whether it’s the victims themselves bringing the allegations, and the people seem to be predisposed to just believing the person we want to believe. DIANE LANGBERG 29:40 Yes, yes, yes. We want it to be okay. We want it just to go back to normal without the bad guy, they figured out. First of all, the understanding of how it seeps into everything, contaminates everything is not understood. So if the bad guy is gone, so to speak, then let’s just be fine. But if a bad guy had run a truck over a half of the denomination and nobody could walk, what would you do? That’s clear there is the harm, and it’s still there, even though the people who drove the trucks got kicked out. But with this kind of thing, I think it’s easier for people to push it away and say, well, the bad is gone. And, this is good, whatever. JULIE ROYS 30:34 Talk about the larger system. So I often refer to it as the evangelical industrial complex. I think you refer to it a little bit differently, but it’s the same thing. Often it’s not just the particular institution where there’s allegations being raised, but there’s an entire system behind that nation, a denomination, or even a camp like I think we saw that with Mike Bickle and sort of the International Houses of Prayer and their related ministries, and even that seeped into the Messianic ministries that were very much a part of this. Talk to those who maybe are somewhat naive about how these systems work. Because I know before, before I got a job several decades ago at Moody Radio, I didn’t know this existed. I was kind of like, pretty blind to it all. And I just thought, these are all wonderful ministries. And I think a lot of people believe that and I wish it were all true; some of them are wonderful ministries. But talk about that system and how it exists and how it works. DIANE LANGBERG 31:54 Well, even if you think of it just as a family or a big system like that, the idea of the family, or the idea of a church, whatever. Those are good ideas. We love the idea. We want to help the idea. We want to make it grow. We want it to get bigger, and all of those things. And then something comes along that shows that there’s cancer and so sometimes we ignore that. There’s plenty of organizations that do that. Sometimes the response is very superficial, and sometimes people really want to get rid of, say, those who are the source of the cancer, whatever, but they still aren’t doing any treatment for the cancer. JULIE ROYS 32:42 Some of it’s quite carnal too, isn’t it? Just come down to, I mean, we’re talking dollars and cents with some of these. DIANE LANGBERG 32:47 Oh my goodness, yes, fame and a whole lot of money. JULIE ROYS 32:51 It really is amazing, once you get into this, when you realize how much the celebrity pastor supports the entire industry, whether it’s the mega church, whether it’s publishing, whether it’s Christian radio, because we rely on them for our programming and to bring the big crowds, or to bring the audience to a station, I mean, all of those things. And I think people don’t realize it is a billions, billions of dollars involved in evangelicalism. DIANE LANGBERG 33:21 Be we tell ourselves, it’s all God’s work, and his message is getting out there, and people are hearing, and we have to protect that period . JULIE ROYS 33:30 And despite the fact that these pastors are living in multi-million-dollar homes, sometimes multiple multi-million-dollar homes, and somehow we say they deserve it? like whether they deserve it or not, Christ didn’t live like. DIANE LANGBERG 33:46 He certainly deserved it, right? JULIE ROYS 33:50 And yet he, he never, you know, I always go back to Philippians two, being in very nature God did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped. But instead, emptied Himself and became a servant and it’s like we’ve forgotten that model. And sometimes I’m just like, wow. DIANE LANGBERG 34:12 Well, I think in many ways, over, I don’t know how many decades, but that the Christian world has forgotten those things, which I can’t imagine how much grief we have caused our God. JULIE ROYS 34:25 Despite these harms that you talk about in your book, and you explain, and we’ve talked about on this podcast, you express hope for the church. And I think a lot of folks are looking at the American church and not feeling very hopeful at all. Why do you feel that there’s hope? DIANE LANGBERG 34:48 Because Jesus Christ exists. It goes back to him. But I have also in this work, met very fine, pastors, leaders, whatever, who have come in to see me, whether struggling with something or whatever, but who long to do right to please God, to love Jesus well, to love their people well. So I have not had a diet of only those who are either victims of terrible harm or doing the harm. I think if that’s all I’d had, I would have a much harder thing to think about in terms of my thoughts about God, and I did. There was a time, I don’t know how long ago it was now, some years where I decided I can’t do this anymore. It’s going to make me rotten inside. And literally got down on my knees and said to God, okay, I’m done. You’ll have to let me know what other job you want me to do. Obviously, he did not do that, because I’m still there. That was a turning point for me in many ways, many of them wonderful. But you know, how much of that can you sit with and look at and not be made sick by it? If you’re not, something’s wrong with you. But if it does that to you, then, how do you deal with yourself? JULIE ROYS 36:23 And I think one of the most insidious parts of religious abuse and trauma in the church is that it separates you often from community. And I have found, and I haven’t been in this nearly as long as you, but that community, and I think we need to sometimes redefine it. And I mean, I’m in a house church now, and I’ve talked about this on numerous podcasts, but it’s been a safe place for me. It’s been a wonderfully healing place for me. But it’s just been crucial. And I know not everybody has that opportunity, but somehow I just think we have to, we have to seek that out, even if it’s really difficult for us. And I understand some people need to take a break for a while, and I totally get that. And we had a very compassionate church, or house church, where there were a number of us that were wounded, that people were willing to sit with us in that and not try to make something out of what we were doing more than just loving people, which really is, I mean, that’s the essence of it, all right. Wow. That that you’re right. If all you encounter are toxic people doing toxic things, and I still feel this way to this day, the most beautiful people that I know still are Christians. Some of the most ugly ones that I’ve encountered are professing Christians, whether they know Christ, that’s between them and him. But yeah, I will still say the most loving, beautiful human beings on this planet that I know are still Christians. DIANE LANGBERG 38:16 Yes, and I have found that to be true. And I’ve sat with people sometimes for years working through growing up with abuse, churches abusing, I mean, just the idea that anybody can grow and have a life and bear good fruit out of all of that, it’s a miracle. But I watch it, it’s there, and it is a thing of beauty, JULIE ROYS 38:43 Truly is. I’ve said this before, but you are an inspiration to me. I know you’re an inspiration to so many of the folks that are listening,. I would just love to know from you, and I know you, that there is no secret hill or secret formula. But as you’re looking back over five decades of work and your relationship with Jesus, what would be some things that you would say to us, and remaining true to the end, fighting the good fight, being able to say someday before Christ, or hearing him say to us, well done, good and faithful servant. We want to get there. How can we get there? DIANE LANGBERG 39:40 Well, I think one of the things I would say is that I did try to quit once. I mean, I told God, I was quitting. I didn’t ask him anything. Probably, there’s something about me, of course, but I couldn’t do it. I was either gonna react in ways that were harmful for people or just deaden myself. Those seem to be the only options, and that was a huge turning point for me. I obviously did stay with it. So he won, but he responded to me and helped me see things in way of the cross that I had not seen before, in who he is in his heart. So feel like quitting. I think that’s pretty normal, you know, and I think a lot of people do. But I think, yeah, I literally got down on my face on the floor, and said, I quit your turn, I don’t know what to do. But he responded, and I’m so grateful, and I’m so grateful I didn’t. I’ve learned more of him by staying I wouldn’t trade for anything. I’ve also seen changes, not just in individuals, which I have, but in some systems, or at least portions of it was probably right. JULIE ROYS 41:13 I mean obviously God could do all of the work that we do without us. He doesn’t need us, and yet he chooses to allow us to partner with what he’s doing in the world and through that, we become different people. We become, I’ve said it to my husband before, like I feel sometimes like he is making us more enjoyable companions for him. DIANE LANGBERG 41:44 Yes, we become more like Him. And you don’t feel it in the middle of it, and it takes a long time, but it’s somewhere along the way you look back and go, Oh, that’s not what I was like before. Has his aroma in it. JULIE ROYS 42:01 Well, I just want to thank you so much for your work, for your writing, and I’m just absolutely thrilled that you’re coming to RESTORE in February. So looking forward to that. And a new thing thanks to Phil Monroe, your partner there, is having a pre-conference for counselors. Because, again, we need to minister to the counselors, to the caregivers, to the pastors, absolutely. And so I’m thrilled that we’re going to be able to do that, and you’re going to be able to participate in that. And then the conference as well and speaking to a lot of people who’ve been through an awful lot of church hurts. So very much looking forward to that. But thank you so much for taking the time today, and thank you for this new book, even though we weren’t able to have you toward the last RESTORE, which, for me personally, was a sacrifice, but definitely worth it in the book. So thank you. DIANE LANGBERG 42:58 Well, thank you for having me, and I am glad for the work that you do. It touches people, but whose souls have been hurt, gives them a taste of light and love. So blessings on you.. JULIE ROYS 43:19 Thank you. JULIE ROYS 43:22 Thanks so much for listening to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys, and I would love to get you a copy of Diane’s latest book, When the Church Harms God’s People. This is our premium to donors this month. So if you give $40 or more to The Roys Report, we’ll send you a copy of Diane’s book. As many of you know, your gifts to this work is what makes it possible. We can’t do anything that we do, from our podcast to our daily reporting to our investigations, without your support. So please consider helping us out, and when you do, we’ll get you a copy of Diane’s book, When the Church Harms God’s People. To donate and get the book, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Also just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple podcast, Spotify, or YouTube, that way you won’t miss any of these episodes. And while you’re at it, I’d really appreciate it if you’d help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review, and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again. Thanks so much for joining me today. Hope you were blessed and encouraged. Read more

Deconstructors & The Bread of Life with Scot McKnight

The Biggest Table

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 22, 2024 50:39

In this episode of 'The Biggest Table,' host Andrew Camp explores various aspects of Christian faith and community with Dr. Scot McKnight. The discussion emphasizes maintaining curiosity, humility, and ensuring Jesus remains the focal point in church activities and teachings. Key themes include addressing deconstruction in modern Christianity, the importance of communal gatherings around a table akin to early Christian traditions, and the transformative nature of interactive church settings. The symbolism of Jesus as the 'bread of life' is examined both in spiritual and social contexts, advocating for equitable practices and support within the church. The conversations underscore fostering community, imagination, and fellowship, reflecting on personal experiences and the symbolic power of shared meals in embodying God's love.Scot McKnight (born 1953) is an American New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, theologian, and author who has written widely on the historical Jesus, early Christianity and Christian living. He is the author of more than 90 books, including Jesus Creed, The Blue Parakeet, Kingdom Conspiracy, A Fellowship of Differents, A Church Called Tov, and Pivot (the last two of which he coauthored with his daughter Laura). His newest book is Invisible Jesus (coauthored with Tommy Preson Phillips), which explores the prophetic voice of deconstructors.McKnight is an ordained Anglican deacon and canon theologian for the Diocese of Churches for the Sake of Others with anabaptist leanings, and has also written frequently on issues in modern anabaptism.This episode of the Biggest Table is brought to you in part by Wild Goose Coffee. Since 2008, Wild Goose has sought to build better communities through coffee. For our listeners, Wild Goose is offering a special promotion of 20% off a one time order using the code TABLE at checkout. To learn more and to order coffee, please visit wildgoosecoffee.com.

397: Mitch Lavender — Respect and Dignity

BEMA Session 1: Torah

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 27, 2024 59:04

Marty Solomon and Brent Billings are joined by Mitch Lavender, longtime BEMA listener and group facilitator, and now Lead Campus Minister in Cincinnati with Impact Campus Ministries, about his experiences with a community dealing with the challenges of diversity and how that can lead to transition with family, friends, and faith.A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer Special Guest: Mitch Lavender.

The Misuse and Abuse of Authority - Part Two

The Leader's Journey Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 17, 2024 34:57

Join Jim and Trisha as they discuss how assigned authority affects our lives with their guest Ryan Donovan. Take the time to listen to the hard questions being asked about how the role of authority in today's world has shifted and changed. Ryan Donovan is a licensed counselor who lives in Austin, Texas who loves the outdoors. He plays fastpitch softball in his free time, and his life experience has equipped him in some really important ways to join in this conversation. Ryan is also involved in coaching with The Leader's Journey. Conversation Overview: Recognizing Blind Spots Assigned Authority The Paradigm Shift Connection vs. Commitment Asking the Right Questions The Effects of a Double Bind Stewardship of Authority Church Cares and the book "Becoming a Church That Cares Well for the Abused" GRACE - Godly Response to Abuse in a Christian Environment A Church Called Tov When Narcissism Comes to Church Bully Pulpit Matt Tebbe's substack

texas church leader authority abuse abused misuse bully pulpit church called tov ryan donovan when narcissism comes matt tebbe

Pivoting from Toxic to Tov

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 11, 2024 33:35

Guest Bios Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBdqZj2_gHA Can a church that's had a history of being toxic transform its culture and become truly healthy? Or, are churches like this doomed to repeat their history, despite efforts to change? This edition of The Roys Report features a talk from our recent Restore Conference by Laura Barringer. Laura and her father, theologian Scot McKnight, co-authored two best-selling books on identifying toxic church cultures and reforming them. Their first book, A Church Called Tov, identifies how many church cultures are failing in their mission to glorify God and be truly “tov”—the Hebrew word for good—and instead are harming people. Laura and Scot's second book, titled Pivot, deals with transformation. Can church structures, policies, and even relationships that were once oppressive turn into something tov, or good? This was the topic of Laura's talk at Restore in which she shared details and compelling stories of churches who have successfully made this change. Doing so is not easy, Laura says, but it's worth it. With more and more churches and ministries being exposed as abusive or corrupt, this topic is extremely relevant. Sometimes, after a bad leader is removed, churches want to change but don't know how. This talk helps chart the way. Guests Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles. Show Transcript Coming soon Read more

god chicago toxic practices pivot hebrew restore pivoting scot wheaton college scot mcknight jesus creed laura barringer church called tov roys report restore conference

A church called “Tov” - 3.13.24

Green Pastures Devotions

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 13, 2024 7:49

church called tov

Episode #215 - PIVOT with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

The Two Cities

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 6, 2024 56:55

CW: adverse religious experiences, church-related trauma, narcissistic leadersDr. Scot McKnight is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and Laura Barringer is an author and a Kindergarten Teacher.In this episode, they summarize their two recent books (A Church Called Tov and Pivot). In the first part, in the light of abuse related to Willow Creek Church and the Southern Baptist Convention, they describe harmful dynamics and harmful responses when abuse is brought to light. And in the second part, our primary focus for the episode, they put forward a vision for transforming church cultures. They also give tips for identifying unhealthy cultures, addressing those unhealthy cultures, and understanding deconstruction in light of these things.Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Dr. John Anthony Dunne and Dr. Madison Pierce.Series Disclaimer: This series explores the concept of “trauma,” its sources, and its expressions from a range of perspectives. Some of our guests are licensed mental health professionals; some are those with formative experiences of trauma; and others are those who explore trauma through various theoretical frameworks. We hope that this series provides useful information to all that enables them to begin to be trauma-informed and to love others and themselves better. Our series is by no means meant to replace the important work of one-on-one time with a trauma-informed professional. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

professor team new testament acast pivot cw southern baptist convention two cities kindergarten teacher scot mcknight northern seminary laura barringer church called tov willow creek church madison pierce

Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 17, 2024 60:54

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Check out Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's newsletterConsider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, The Jesus Creed.Follow him on Twitter: @scotmcknightRead Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnightWomen in MinistryAn accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.Keeping Names AuthenticOne of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience."We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnightTimestamped summary of this episode:00:00:02 - Introduction,Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,Familiarity with the text can sometimes00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.00:35:25 - The Power With,Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.00:36:53 - Power For,Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.00:53:38 - Call to Action,Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.00:54:48 - TovLori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.00:56:03 - Conclusion,Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.Appreciate the role of cultural context and precise translation in interpreting the Bible effectively.Comprehend the various power dynamics at play within the church and their implications.Recognize signs of spiritual abuse, ensuring adequate support for survivors.Grasp the crucial need for responsible leadership and the ethical use of power.Discover the valuable contributions of female scholars and survivors in the ministry.Realize the importance of context and accurate translation in unlocking the true meaning of biblical passages.Uncover diversities in church power dynamics and their impacts on members.Identify the nature of spiritual abuse and the ways to help survivors heal.Understand the significance of virtuous leadership and the fair exercise of power for communal benefit.Shed light on the often-overlooked perspectives of women scholars and abuse survivors in ministry.https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.comhttps://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifferencehttps://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference/https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/https://www.twitter.com/@awodpodhttps://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifferencehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/

Best of 2023: Discovering the Authentic Voices of the Bible with Dr. Scot McKnight

partner new testament pivot threads scot mcknight healthy churches barringer laura barringer church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 17, 2024 60:54

If you're feeling frustrated and helpless in your efforts to promote cultural and linguistic accuracy in the church, despite taking actions like advocating for diverse representation and using inclusive language, then you are not alone!Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scott McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. But when it comes to women in ministry and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tov" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Check out Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's newsletterConsider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, The Jesus Creed.Follow him on Twitter: @scotmcknightRead Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long time." - Dr. Scot McKnightWomen in MinistryAn accurate translation plays a crucial role in recognizing and valuing the contributions of women in the early church. Being mindful of the words used to describe women's roles is crucial as language can shape our understanding and reinforce stereotypes or power dynamics within the church. By translating words and phrases accurately, women's contributions to the early church can be acknowledged and celebrated more fairly. During the conversation, Dr. McKnight emphasized the importance of using accurate translation to highlight women's roles in the church, such as translating the word Phoebe to mean "deacon" rather than "servant." He also mentioned the prevalence of false narratives and power dynamics in church culture that can negatively affect how people perceive women's roles in ministry. By ensuring accurate translations, he believes we can better acknowledge, value, and empower women working in the church.Keeping Names AuthenticOne of the essential aspects of ensuring cultural authenticity in a Bible translation is the use of names as close as possible to what they would have sounded in the original language. This offers a sense of novelty and unfamiliarity for readers, prompting reflection on the context and culture surrounding the text. By preserving the original names, readers can gain deeper insights into the characters and their significance in the narrative. Dr. McKnight uses transliteration in his translation, meaning that names in the Bible are rendered more authentically, closer to their original language. For instance, Yakobos is used instead of the English equivalent, James. Dr. McKnight argued during the podcast that using such authentic names invites readers to reconsider the context and culture of the Bible's characters, creating a more engaging and meaningful reading experience."We need to be careful with the words we use for translations, because if we don't get it right, it can hurt people." - Dr. Scot McKnightTimestamped summary of this episode:00:00:02 - Introduction,Dr. Scott McKnight is an advocate in the survivor community and a professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois. He has written over 90 books and blogs at The Jesus Creed. He talks about his new translation of the New Testament, the Second Testament, which he made more literal to help people understand the ancient context of the text.00:06:01 - Reason for New Translation,McKnight believes that the capacity to translate Greek into English has reached near perfection, but people miss things when they try to make it a natural English equivalent. He wants to show people the differences between the original Greek sentence and the English sentence.00:11:37 - Distinctives of the Second Testament,McKnight was inspired to translate the New Testament after reading John Golden Gay's translation of the Old Testament. One of the distinctives is the transliteration of names, which may be confusing but creates an authentic ancient context. McKnight's translation sometimes sounds clunky because it is formally equivalent, but that helps readers slow down and think.00:14:57 - Keeping Names Authentic,The Second Testament transliterates names to help readers understand the ancient context. This makes the text feel foreign and distant, which is appropriate, as it helps readers dig deeper into cultural exegesis. McKnight believes that being familiar with the text can be a hindrance to truly understanding it.00:15:47 - Familiarity with the Text,Familiarity with the text can sometimes00:16:13 - The Impact of Names on Reading,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the impact of names on reading and how different names can lead readers to think differently and understand a text in a new way. He suggests that using the original Greek text can take readers into the first-century Christian world and help them understand the text in a new light.00:18:10 - Women in Ministry,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the controversy around women pastors, using the example of the lack of pastors in the Bible. He suggests that titles such as Piscopos, Diaconos, and Presbutaros were used instead. He also refers to Romans 16, which mentions several women involved in church ministry, including an apostle and a deacon.00:22:54 - Multiculturalism in the Early Church,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the multicultural and multiracial nature of the early church, with a mix of slaves and free people, men and women, and Jews and Gentiles. He draws attention to the several women mentioned in Romans 16, performing ministries that today would be called pastoring.00:27:39 - The Importance of Language,Dr. Scot McKnight emphasizes the importance of language and translation, pointing out that the wrong translation can hurt people. He uses the example of King James' Bible, which made choices to keep its subjects subdued. He also discusses the power dynamics in evangelical churches and how they favor men and certain behaviors that have become manly.00:33:10 - The Four Types of Power,Dr. Scot McKnight discusses the four types of power: power over, power to influence, power with, and power for. He explains how power over is the most corrupted form of power and how it is prevalent in the business world, sports, and even the church. He also highlights the importance of using power for the good of others and sharing power with others.00:35:25 - The Power With,Dr. McKnight delves deeper into the concept of power with and how it involves the willingness to share power with someone else to achieve a mutually beneficial outcome. He cites his experience of co-authoring a book with a young man and how they worked together to create a cohesive product.00:36:53 - Power For,Dr. McKnight discusses the last type of power, power for, which involves using one's power for the good of another person. He cites Jesus Christ as an example of this type of power, as He came not to be served but to serve and give His life for others.00:40:00 - Dealing with Spiritual Abuse,Dr. McKnight advises people who are experiencing spiritual abuse or know someone who is to first become healthy enough to handle the blowback that comes with going public. He also stresses the importance of having a support system and following the proper protocols or guidelines for reporting abuse. Lastly, he emphasizes the need for patience and resilience as it may take a long time to see change.00:50:50 - Abusing Power in Churches,Dr. Scott McKnight discusses how some pastors and church leaders abuse their power, particularly with vulnerable members such as children. He encourages readers to follow his work in understanding power dynamics and using power for good, especially with survivors of abuse.00:52:00 - The Way of Jesus,Dr. Scott McKnight emphasizes the way of Jesus in using power for good and elevating others. He references the Kenosis passage in Philippians 2 and encourages listeners to learn how to understand and wield their power for the benefit of others.00:53:38 - Call to Action,Lori Adams-Brown issues a call to action for listeners to use their power for good, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages finding a survivor and listening to their story while respecting their autonomy and using power to elevate their voice and support them.00:54:48 - TovLori Adams-Brown references Dr. Scott McKnight and Laura Behringer's book, A Church Called TOV, and highlights the importance of using power in tov, or goodness, particularly with survivors of abuse. She encourages listeners to find ways to support survivors and let them lead the way in how they want to share their stories and move forward.00:56:03 - Conclusion,Lori Adams-Brown thanks listeners for their work in making a difference and encourages them to read Dr. Scot McKnight's book, Second Testament. She also hints at future episodes with Dr. Scot McKnight and his new book with Laura Barringer as a follow up to A Church Called TOV.Appreciate the role of cultural context and precise translation in interpreting the Bible effectively.Comprehend the various power dynamics at play within the church and their implications.Recognize signs of spiritual abuse, ensuring adequate support for survivors.Grasp the crucial need for responsible leadership and the ethical use of power.Discover the valuable contributions of female scholars and survivors in the ministry.Realize the importance of context and accurate translation in unlocking the true meaning of biblical passages.Uncover diversities in church power dynamics and their impacts on members.Identify the nature of spiritual abuse and the ways to help survivors heal.Understand the significance of virtuous leadership and the fair exercise of power for communal benefit.Shed light on the often-overlooked perspectives of women scholars and abuse survivors in ministry.https://www.aworldofdifferencepodcast.comhttps://www.patreon.com/aworldofdifferencehttps://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference/https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/https://www.twitter.com/@awodpodhttps://www.youtube.com/@aworldofdifferencehttps://www.linkedin.com/company/aworldofdifference/

Episode 218: Let's Pivot to Healthy Churches feat. Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer

To Love Honor and Vacuum

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 14, 2023 59:34

Links to things mentioned:Partner with us at Good Fruit Faith, an initiative of the Bosko Foundation, as we help impact future church leaders with our data and our message (tax receiptable within the U.S.): https://secure.qgiv.com/for/goodfruitsJoin our Patreon for as little as $5 a month and get access to unfiltered podcasts! https://patreon.com/baremarriageFind Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's book Pivot: https://amzn.to/3ToOKiV, along with their first book together A Church Called Tov: https://amzn.to/41nRsrdOur first podcast together about their book A Church Called Tov: https://baremarriage.com/2021/04/podcast-a-church-called-tov-and-matthew-18/Find Scot McKnight's New Testament bible study series: https://amzn.to/46Zc5uWLaura Barringer on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@lauraebarringerScot McKnight on Threads: https://www.threads.net/@scotandkrisMe on Threads! https://www.threads.net/@sheilagregoire

68. Character over Charisma with Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer.

Reclamation: An NWM Initiative

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 7, 2023 40:24

Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer are the authors of the book Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture (you might remember them from their first book, “A Church Called Tov”). In this episode of the Reclamation Podcast, we will focus the conversation on the issue of character: its relationship to power, the damage to churches when their leaders do not reflect Christ-like character and more. Listen in to learn more of what it looks like to prioritize character over charisma. To look at Laura and Scot's book, click the following link. https://www.amazon.com/-/es/Scot-McKnight/dp/149646673X/ref=monarch_sidesheet ---------------- Support this work by visiting ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.beemboldened.com/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠to make a tax-deductible donation (formerly Naomi Wright Ministries / NWM).

jesus christ character practices charisma scot scot mcknight barringer laura barringer church called tov reclamation podcast

Pivot: Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture (Interview with Scot McKnight)

Expedition 44

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 14, 2023 51:50

Dr. Will Ryan and Dr. Matt interview Dr. Scot McKnight about his newest book- Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture. Order the Book here: https://a.co/d/9R6hqSY A practical guide to help you build a culture in your church or organization that resists abuse and cultivates goodness.After the release of their groundbreaking book, A Church Called Tov, which recorded the stories of abuse and toxic church cultures at some of the most prominent churches in the United States, New Testament scholar and blogger for Christianity Today Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer heard from a flood of people who had experienced similar instances of abuse. After all they've seen and heard, they still believe it's possible for church cultures to be transformed from toxic to tov―from oppressive to good.In Pivot, Scot and Laura help churches to implement practices,establish priorities, and cultivate the Kingdom Gospel-centered qualities that form goodness cultures. Readers will find answers to the four most common questions people have about culture transformation: How can I transform the culture in my church or organization to make it tov? I believe my workplace has unhealthy values. How do I initiate change? How do I unleash a culture of goodness in my ministry? I'm not in a position of church leadership. What are some red flags that indicate a toxic culture, and what can I do if I see them? The “Tov tool,” a survey to help you discern your organization's culture and to promote spiritual conversations A “getting to work” section at the end of each chapter with questions and next steps for application Pivot also includes the following practical features:Transformation is never easy. But for the sake of the next generation, we must do it. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/expedition44/support

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Ep. 135 Scot McKnight - The Pivotal Priorities, Practices, and Powers to Transform Into a Tov Culture

Shifting Culture

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2023 49:59 Transcription Available

In this episode, Scot McKnight talks about one of his new books – Pivot. This book is a follow up to A Church Called Tov which really hit a nerve when it debuted. In that book they wrote about toxic church culture and contrast it to tov culture, or goodness culture. Pivot is the book of implementation. What are the steps to get to a tov church? What are the things that we need to implement? We talk about Holy Spirit, Christlikeness, models, long patience, giving ownership over to the church body, and more. It's a great conversation. So, join us as we discover the pivotal priorities, practices, and powers that we can live into, so we can transform into a tov culture. Scot McKnight is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and a recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. He is the author of more than ninety books, including the award-winning The Jesus Creed as well as A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, A Fellowship of Differents, The Blue Parakeet, and Kingdom Conspiracy. He maintains an active Substack newsletter at https://scotmcknight.substack.com. He and his wife, Kristen, live in the northwest suburbs of Chicago, where they enjoy long walks, gardening, and cooking. Scot's Book:PivotConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below.Support the show

Pivoting Your Church From Toxic to Healthy

united states god tv jesus christ spotify california canada church chicago bible spirit talk gospel germany holy spirit christianity healthy dad illinois white house toxic kingdom of god oprah winfrey pastor midwest new testament practices google podcasts pivot rogers ibm hebrew explain restore sermon on the mount sad fell pivoting banner eucharist ravi scot book of psalms duh anglican brethren quaker puritan puritans dietrich bonhoeffer wheaton college barna jonathan edwards elgin ravi zacharias quakers pastor paul disillusionment folsom james smith barrington jack welch prussia eugene peterson dallas willard lisle navigators first corinthians first john willow creek tov eutychus marquardt campus crusade scot mcknight christian universities intervarsity darvo david kinnaman katelyn beaty ravi zacharias international ministries edgar schein julie roys truth trust jesus creed laura barringer judson university church called tov scott wagner bruxy ken carlson roys report dave fitch

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 1, 2023 56:41

Guest Bios Show Transcript How can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? In this podcast, theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer, join me to discuss their latest book, Pivot, a sequel to their earlier best-selling book, A Church Called Tov. While their first book explained the characteristics of a “tov,” or good, culture, Pivot tackles the next challenge—transforming ingrained toxic cultures into tov ones. As Scot and Laura discuss, transformation can be a grueling and painful process. And their research shows transformation takes an average of seven years! But it is possible. And cultures led by narcissist leaders that create consumers can transform into ones led by servant-leaders that make disciples. In their characteristic relatable and warm style, Scot and Laura explain the practical steps required to do that. Specifically, they discuss the priorities, practices, and powers necessary to pivot, or transform, toxic cultures. And they give real-life examples of churches that have undergone this transformation and lived to tell about it! Scot and Laura draw from their own experiences in churches, conversations with leaders seeing transformation happen, and a deep well of research to provide actionable insights for churches and ministries. Guests Scot McKnight Scot McKnight is a professor of New Testament and has been teaching for more than four decades. His specialty is in the fields of Gospels and Jesus studies, but his passions are in the intersection of New Testament in its context as it speaks to the church today. Along with his daughter, Laura Barringer, they have published A Church Called Tov and a follow-up book, Pivot, which discusses what churches can do to help transform themselves from toxic cultures into tov (goodness) cultures. Laura Barringer Laura Barringer is coauthor of A Church Called Tov as well as Pivot: The Priorities, Practices and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. A graduate of Wheaton College, Laura resides in the suburbs of Chicago with her husband Mark and their three beagles. Show Transcript SPEAKERS SCOT McKNIGHT, LAURA BARRINGER, JULIE ROYS JULIE ROYS 00:00 So how can you transform a toxic church culture into a healthy one? And what's the best way to initiate change? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I'm Julie Roys. And joining me today are theologian Scot McKnight and his daughter, Laura Barringer. They're the authors of the bestselling book A Church Called TOV. TOV is the Hebrew word for good or goodness. And the book explained how to create a church culture that's truly good–one that resists abuse promotes healing and spiritual growth. But what if your church or Christian workplace already has an ingrained toxic culture? Well, that's what Scot and Laura's new book PIVOT is all about. It explains the priorities, practices and powers that can help you pivot or transform your toxic culture into a TOV culture. But it's not easy and it's not for the faint of heart, but it is God honoring and it is possible. So I'm very excited to delve into this topic was gotten Laura But first, I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. If you're looking for a top ranked Christian University, providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Judson University is for you. Judson is located on 90 acres just 40 miles west of Chicago in Elgin, Illinois. The school offers more than 60 majors, great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Plus you can take classes online as well as in person. Judson University is shaping lives that shape the world. For more information, just go to JudsonU.edu. Also, if you're looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That's because the owners there, Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out. Just go to BUYACAR123.com. Well again, joining me is New Testament scholar Scot McKnight, who has authored more than 50 books. He's currently professor of New Testament at Northern Baptist Theological Seminary in Lisle, Illinois. And he's an ordained Anglican and maintains a blog with Christianity today called Jesus Creed. So Scott, welcome. It's a pleasure to have you join me. SCOT McKNIGHT 02:25 Thanks, Julie. Good to be with you again. JULIE ROYS 02:27 Yeah, second time. So I always like when I have a repeat guest. It means it must have gone okay the first time. SCOT McKNIGHT 02:33 I used to be with you sometimes on the radio, in the old days. JULIE ROYS 02:37 On Moody. Yeah. Yes, old days. Well, thank you so much for joining us. This is going to be fun. I love the book. And Laura, thank you also for joining me again, Scot's daughter Laura Barringer, who's co authored Scott's last two books, A Church Called TOV and PIVOT. Laura also is a children's ministry curriculum writer for Grow Kids. And her day job is teaching kindergarteners in suburban Chicago and Laura, I know you've had a full day teaching them today. So thank you so much for for joining us and for being willing to come on. LAURA BARRINGER 03:09 Yeah, thank you for having me again. It's nice to be with you guys. JULIE ROYS 03:13 And you were just with us at RESTORE, and did a phenomenal job. And we've been rolling out the videos on that and yours will be rolling out in the next few weeks. But that was just delightful to have you. So thank you for joining us at that. LAURA BARRINGER 03:27 I had a great time. It was such an honor to speak at the event and meet so many of the people that I've interacted with online over the last few times. I was just blown away by how special. I was anticipating it. But I was blown away by how special that was to see actual faces. And I came away just realizing this is so much more. It's not just a conference. It's so much more than that. SCOT McKNIGHT 03:51 That's what we experienced the year before. LAURA BARRINGER 03:53 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT 03:54 Same thing like these are the people. LAURA BARRINGER 03:56 Yeah. SCOT McKNIGHT 03:56 These are the people. Yeah, that's good. JULIE ROYS 03:58 Yeah, I think you called it a restorative community. LAURA BARRINGER 03:58 That's what it is. JULIE ROYS 04:00 I love that. I was like, yes, that's exactly what RESTORE is. And Scot, you joined us last year for the RESTORE conference. And your video is up on our YouTube site as well. And I believe it was on How To Be TOV, Not Toxic. So a lot of that stuff that we're talking about today, although today, we're talking more about your second book, which is kind of making that pivot when you realize you already are toxic, right? And you've got this culture ingrained that's not so good. And Laura, I loved in the book where you said, at one point you're like, I teach kindergarteners and now I'm doing all these interviews on how to make a church culture TOV and how to make it good and you're like, how did I get here? And then a pastor said to you, “you know what you nurture little people all day you children all day long, and that skill, even though it's often not valued by pastors is probably more appropriate than a lot of them realize.” And I just I love that. And I'm sure you're finding that as you're speaking to people. LAURA BARRINGER 05:05 Yeah, that was very meaningful interview that was Jared McKenna. He has a podcast that he had invited me on. And for whatever reason, my dad wasn't there. I don't know, usually, they want my dad, and then I tag along. And so initially, those interviews could feel really uncomfortable, because every now and then I would stop and think, do these people, you know, they'd asked me about, like, the church abuse crisis. And I'd think, “do these people not realize that I was making kindergarten ready for school confetti earlier today?” How have I landed in this spot? But that was a very encouraging conversation for me when Jared said, you know, you have some of the qualities as a teacher that we want to see in our pastors. And I stopped, I thought, I suppose that's what we do all day long as teachers we nurture and encourage and shepherd. So yeah, that meant a lot to me, as you read in the book, JULIE ROYS 06:05 And Scott, you teach at a seminary, but a lot of seminaries aren't teaching about this kind of stuff. Like you're you learn a lot of Bible knowledge. But as far as how to create cultures and how to nurture goodness within churches? I mean, are we teaching this in enough seminaries? Or are we maybe a little heavy on the head knowledge and not enough on the cultivating of the heart? SCOT McKNIGHT 06:30 The answer to that is no. There are really no seminaries that are focused on spiritual formation or character development, LAURA BARRINGER 06:41 Really? SCOT McKNIGHT 06:42 None. The curriculum for all the courses is Bible theology, church history, and skill development. And skill development is what is measured, as a general rule for what constitutes a good pastor. In other words, they can preach they can lead, you know, we talked about leadership, I don't, but the evangelical world does. And we read books and from the business world, and we read, what is it, Jack Welch? We read all these people. And these are the people that are formational, for people's perception of what is success, and what constitutes a pastor. One of the curricular changes that took place in seminaries about 15 years ago, 10 years ago, was to bring spiritual formation into every class, rather than located in one class, a class on spiritual formation. And so we do it that way. But Julie, I think character formation for church leaders, is caught more than taught, it's embodied more than it's instructed. And it requires time with someone who has that kind of character. So if you can be an assistant, in a church with Mr. Rogers, for five years, you'll never be the same. If you are in a church with, we won't name any names don't need to in this context, for five years, you will be harmed in character formation. JULIE ROYS 08:12 And that's what's so sad is that so much of my reporting is on churches where that's happening, where you have pastors who can preach the Bible, and can teach it–sometimes with really good doctrine–and yet, the life does not match the teaching. And so that is so much of the problem. So I'm so glad that you that both of you have done these two books, which go hand in hand, and I loved your first book, A Church Called TOV, and I love this book PIVOT, because it's, it really is sort of the sequel, and I think helps an awful lot. And we've been using this phrase church culture. Scott, let me just start there. What is a church culture? Because this is something we often don't think about yet we often swim in it, and we're shaped by it. But what is it exactly? And how is it formed? SCOT McKNIGHT 09:00 A culture is a living agent that conforms people, whether they understand it, or not, unconsciously, unintentionally, to become people who fit in that culture. Now, that's the impact understanding, but culture is a living agent. That is the result of people decisions, policies, over time, that result in a given set of assumptions that are mostly invisible, that shape what's going on in a given institution, or church, whatever, without even being aware of it. That's the culture. JULIE ROYS 09:44 And so often what we see I know when I report on a church or a leader, and in several circumstances that's led to the leader being removed, and then they bring in a new leader, and you think, oh, everything's different now. SCOT McKNIGHT 09:58 Yeah. JULIE ROYS 09:59 But it's really not. Right? Because Nothing. You've got a culture that's ingrained, you have people that have been formed by this culture. And they don't know any different than how to run a toxic church, because that's how they've been discipled. That's the culture that they're familiar with. So you use this metaphor in your book of a peach tree, to help us understand culture. So Laura, let me throw that to you. What is this peach tree metaphor? And how does it apply to helping us understand the church? SCOT McKNIGHT 10:01 Nothing, LAURA BARRINGER 10:30 So the peach tree metaphor, it's, it is a cute, if you will metaphor, but it actually is research based and we based it on the research of Edgar Schein, he's one of the, to my knowledge, most important researchers on organizational culture. And also to our knowledge, we were not able to find research or books on church culture or Christian organization culture. So we took what we learned from him and adapted it and made our model a peach tree, mostly because I have a peach tree in my backyard. Mark, and I planted it when we moved in our home about 10 years ago. And it ended up being perfect for this metaphor, because it's very unhealthy. We've never even eaten one peach off the tree. So like, Oh, that's perfect, because it was a very small because I called her tree. But at any rate, so we talked about peaches as the visible elements of your culture. And it's what people see and experience when they walk in the door. So they might feel like, Oh, those graders were friendly, or who's singing on stage or, when the Anglican tradition, they pass the peace, that's part of the culture. And when they leave, they can probably explain what they felt, what they saw. So what we have learned, and again, this is research based, is that what is underneath the soil is what feeds the living elements of the tree. And most of that is like what my dad was saying that you can't see it, you don't even know it's there. And like our peach tree in our backyard, the fact that it's not growing peaches is not the problem. The problem is that is probably the soil or that we're not caring for the tree, we're supposed to add nutrients every year–we never do. So that's how we develop the model is that the soil and what's underneath the soil, what goes into the roots is what feeds the culture of your organization. And so you really need to look at, we learned, is “what's feeding the soil?” If the tree is being fed by the fruits of the Spirit are by spiritual formation practices, the culture is likely healthy and thriving. If it's being fed by ambition, or power abuse, then the culture is going to be toxic. And so you might get some healthy, like looking peaches, but underneath that's very sick. SCOT McKNIGHT 13:04 This is a good question. And Laura's got a good answer there. But I was in a conversation the other day was a seminary professor who talked about the last three presidents of that institution. And the seminary professor said they were all narcissists. And I said, I think we have to look at why narcissists rose to the top in that organization. There's a culture that gives rise to “that's the kind of person that seems to fit the job description.” Why is that the case? JULIE ROYS 13:39 And that is an important point to make. Because I think so often we do point at the narcissist, and oh, this horrible person that was there and did such horrible things. And we don't look at what's our responsibility for putting that person in and for following that person for not noticing the characteristics that we should have. And you've named some of the toxins that go into these soils of these toxic churches. You give, and I love this because you don't hear the stories very often. And I'd love to report on a lot more of them. I wish there were a lot to report on. But it's of a church that discovers that it's toxic, and goes through this transformation process. And one of them that you talked about is is Oak Hills church in Folsom, California. Explain why Oak Hills felt like it had to transform and then how it began to do so. LAURA BARRINGER 14:33 Yeah, this is one of my favorite parts of our work on PIVOT, I think. I had never heard of Oak Hills. Just one day a book arrived on my doorstep, sent by Scot McKnight. And he said you need to read about this, and then write about it as a case study for PIVOT. It's such a beautiful story, but essentially, the pastors Mike Lueken and Ken Carlson founded a church in California called Oak Hills. And they had come out here to Willow Creek to learn as much as they could about doing church. And they don't criticize Willow at all. They said, in fact, everything that we tried worked. Their attendance exploded, they became a mega church. But they started to feel I would describe it just like an unease like in their soul. And they felt like the exact quote is so striking. It says, “the way that we were doing church was actually working against the invitation of Christ to experience his transformation.” And they had been reading Eugene Peterson, and Dallas Willard and more. And they felt like our attractional model is working against transformation. And so they took the whole church through a very tumultuous process. Their attendance declined, like it was cut in half or more. But they ended up transforming their church from an attractional model to a spiritual formation model. They said the people in the church had become consumers. So like, they would sit there and want a really good show. And then the next week, they would come back and they wanted an even better show. And they said, it felt like we were feeding a monster, and they were drained. They were worn out. And they just felt that stirring in the spirit that they had to transform it. JULIE ROYS 16:28 Yeah, somebody asked me once, whether I thought a mega church could ever be healthy. And my answer was, perhaps, but it just seems to me that all the pressures are in the wrong direction. And it's awful hard to withstand the pressures that keep pushing you in that direction. And I'm curious, Scot, have you ever seen a mega church that, really, you're seeing a real emphasis on spiritual formation? And it seems really healthy? SCOT McKNIGHT 16:59 This is a really interesting question because it feeds into what we researched in this book. And Edgar Schein, I've seen a lot of them, because I've only been there for a day or two. Okay, so this is what they are masters of, is the weekend service is extremely impressive and they have talented, charismatic, winsome, affable people that welcome you at the airport, take you to nice hotels, feed you nice meals, provide a green room in the back with all the amenities that you need, and a wonderful platform where they stand up and even clap for you. Great music. So here's the point, I do believe there are mega churches that are healthy. But the only way to know this is to have someone investigate them, not for the purpose of exposing anything, but for the sole purpose of finding out what's really going on. And it would take three to six months of someone who's skilled at knowing how to find a culture. This is what Edgar Schein does, he'll go to places like let's just say IBM, and work there for nine months. And it takes that long to find what is actually in the soil feeding the place. So there's no megachurch pastor, or leaders, or any church is going to tell you that what's driving them is ambition, and competition. They want to win the battle of the best church in the neighborhood or in the city or in the state or in the United States. They will never say that, but that is one of the drivers. And it takes a long time to figure out that that's what's actually at work when fundamental decisions are made in the church. So I would say I've never had the opportunity to actually examine a mega church at that level. I do know, a mega church model that the theory is that it's small groups that meet on Sunday. That's the kind of mega church model has the capacity to be working at character formation. But I can't say that I looked at the people I've met there have been very impressive, but that's what a famous pastor in Canada that was his model as well. JULIE ROYS 19:26 Bruxy Cavey. SCOT McKNIGHT 19:27 Yeah, that's a lot of problems. JULIE ROYS 19:29 Yeah. And he comes from Brethren In Christ Anabaptist background which is my background. I grew up in that so at that was very sad for me to see that happen. SCOT McKNIGHT 19:39 Well, I endorsed a lot of his books so not that long before this story. Yeah, I've known Bruxy a long time. Sad story. JULIE ROYS 19:47 Yeah, it is and Brethren in Christ churches from my at least from my growing up, I haven't been in one for many years because we don't really have them in the Midwest, but I felt like they were phenomenal at character formation, spiritual formation. You talk about three pivotal priorities–and one you've touched on–but I want to do a little bit of a deep dive because we're talking about emphasis on character, not ability. I mean, that seems like one of those like, Duh, this is basic, right? I mean, we should be all about character. But why is it that this is such a misplaced priority? Like we really are not looking at character in our churches, and we find, pastor after pastor after pastor falling into scandal and into disrepute, because of character flaws? Why is this? SCOT McKNIGHT 20:39 I think, let's say the pastor on the platform is a different beast altogether than ordinary people in the church. But those aren't the same things. The character issues, you're expecting people to hire a pastor to be able to perform on that platform every Sunday, and put butts in the seats and bills in the plate, and baptisms in the pool. And buildings on the campus. That's what they hire him for. But I would say there's a couple things. Number one is our church is, let's say, measurement devices, or success measurements are not shaped by that at all. A second thing is, it's extremely difficult to measure spiritual growth in a true character formation. And I think I said two, but I got a third one. And it takes a lot of pastors. A lot. You can't have one pastor working with the transformation of 50 people. They can't do that. They don't have that kind of time. That's why the small group model has the capacity. If you don't have pinheads running the small group. If you have people who are Mr. Rogers, like who get to work with people in that small group. We just have a lot of things distorted in the wrong direction. And they start in the wrong location. JULIE ROYS 22:06 And this is the challenge, isn't it? Like you said in the book, if you're going to transform from a toxic culture to a TOV one, what you've seen is that it takes minimum seven years, probably three years before you see this change start to happen. And often the church will shrink. In Oak Hills, they lost what 1000 people? LAURA BARRINGER 22:28 Yeah. JULIE ROYS 22:28 Yeah. And I said this at the beginning of the RESTORE conference, to the pastors who were there, because we talked about, you know, a lot of church hurt at these conferences. And I did hear from one pastor who came and this was at the previous year, and he said, “Yeah, it was really, really powerful conference, but I kind of got the feeling as a pastor that maybe we're the bad guys.” And so I wanted to make sure this one to say, “No, we love you. We're so glad you're here. And the fact that you as a pastor, invested in coming to hear from wounded souls, about the way that they've been hurting the Church says something about you and your character and why you're here. And you're exactly the kind of pastors that we need in our churches.” Yet. I think if I were doing a conference on how you can grow your church overnight, I wouldn't have enough seats, if I had a proven method of making your church double overnight. But what you're talking about here is, here's a path to making your church maybe smaller, maybe less successful in the world's eyes, and trying to get people to buy into this model. But in the end, there's greater fulfillment isn't there in knowing that you're actually producing people who are furthering the kingdom of God? Because you're actually modeling Christ to people. It's a powerful thing. But how do you get people to buy into that? SCOT McKNIGHT 23:48 Well, when you were talking, I'm sitting here thinking of Dietrich Bonhoeffer with his renegade subversive hideout seminaries in northern Germany and Prussia, and the impact of Dallas Willard on someone like James Smith, where it was over time, with one person working with another person. And that's a different calling. And it's not like that's what we hire people in churches to do. You know, the last Barna book I read by David Kinnaman, was on pastors. And I think the number was 12% of pastors enjoy discipleship. LAURA BARRINGER 24:34 That low? SCOT McKNIGHT 24:35 Yeah, it may be lower than that, but I think it was in the book, Pastor Paul. But that is not what they see themselves doing. They see themselves preaching and leading and administrating and organizing. And some of them writing books, and traveling around speaking at conferences. That's what they see themselves doing. But if you work in Navigators or you work in Campus Crusade or InterVarsity on a campus and colleges, which are some of the most effective TOV institutions in the world. They are all about working with young college students and helping them deal with the fact that they got drunk last night, and we got to find out what's going on. And they disciple people. And it takes a lot of time. And in four years, those students, a lot of them want to come back and do the same to other college students. That's the multiplication principle of Navigators. And Navigators is all about one on one, JULIE ROYS 25:37 And what virtues should we be looking for? And should we be cultivating? LAURA BARRINGER 25:42 Theologian. SCOT McKNIGHT 25:43 (laughter) There's a couple of ways to look at this. And I think we need to take the major virtue passages in the Bible. So look at the 10 commandments. Alright, look at the book of Psalms, pick a couple of prophets and say, What are they trying to inculcate in people? And how they should live? Then look at the Sermon on the Mount. Look at Paul's list of the fruit of the Spirit. Look at what Paul says about love in First Corinthians 13. Look at First John's teachings. Avoid Jude because he's too hot, a little angry all the time. So and just realize that there are different ways to package this over time to frame what virtues we want to talk about. Now, there's ways of summarizing, let's say, we want to be followers of Jesus. That's a summary statement. Or we want to be characterized by love. Or if you're in the Puritan movement, you want to be characterized by godliness. And that means you read the Puritans, and you subscribe to Banner of Truth Trust, and all this, and these become your heroes. Jonathan Edwards is the guy. But all these terms are summary statements that need to be unfolded. And so the virtues, the character that forms these virtues, so that they become sort of instincts can be framed in different ways. But all those passages can help us shape the kinds of virtues we're looking for. JULIE ROYS 27:23 So we have character is one of our priorities. Another one is TOV power. And I have to say, when you hear that word power, and you've experienced abuse of power, just that word power, can be scary. So how can we tell if power is being harnessed and used in a good way, as opposed to a toxic way? LAURA BARRINGER 27:49 Yeah, this is a big one for us. After A Church Called TOV was published, we received letter after letter after letter, we wrote a lot about sexual abuse, we heard mostly from victims of power abuse, we would get these letters every week, my dad would get some I would get some. And it was story after story of people who had been wounded, mostly by pastors who had misused their power. And the people had tried to stand up for themselves or those who found the courage to maybe try to talk to elders. It was like they didn't get very far because people didn't believe them, or it was done behind closed doors. So people say, Well, I haven't seen him do that. That's not how he is. That's not my experience. And that was so painful, because it discounts the reality of what another person endured. So this was a really big one for us when we went to write PIVOT. All of us have power, right? Like, I have power, I'm a teacher, so I have the power to influence those under me and how people use their power is a measure of their character of who they are as a person. SCOT McKNIGHT 29:09 People have power. And anybody who exercises a decision, who is a leader, has a right to make those decisions. And people underneath them, I guess, have a right to bellyache about them as well. I mean, that's part of the complaint culture that workplaces develop. But to me, one of the signs of power desire is when someone who is your leader makes a decision that you don't like how do you respond? Do you manipulate? Do you gossip? Do you attack? Do you get other people in your corner so that you can eventually destroy that person's reputation and character? That's a very important element of power, in institutions, is a complaint culture that forms. All narcissists have no self awareness of the power that they have, and what they are doing to people around them. They have lack of self awareness. So they think what they're doing is right all the time. And when they're criticized, they DARVO. “That's not what I was doing.” Well, yes, you did. That's the impact you made on it. So they lacked that awareness. So it needs to be revealed by people being able to have a safe place to be able to express what they've experienced from a person. I've been in institutions where presidents were removed. I'm at one right now. And the former president, there were too many people who were released, and then stories were released about that person. And The Roys Report reported about it. JULIE ROYS 30:53 Yes we did. SCOT McKNIGHT 30:54 Not very good news for our seminary. But those were symptoms, signs that something's going on. And it was not a safe place for people to be able to register their complaints. And it didn't seem to be achieving anything, I think power is going to happen. People get to do this, who are leaders. They have power. So they exercise their power, and not everybody's going to agree with it, and people get to interpret it. And they can be dead wrong, and be very convincing, even though they're wrong. But at the same time, there has to be some sort of device mechanism, TOV tool, that gives people some indications of how that person is using power. And I think it's possible to reveal some of this stuff. But I think it's impossible to change a narcissist. JULIE ROYS 31:52 So you have to have somebody in positions of leadership, who obviously have the character and wants to use their power in a right way. And one of the things that that you do in this book, which I think is really helpful, is you not only have questions at the end of each chapter, but you do have assessment tools, where you can begin to assess some of these things to say, Okay, this is a toxic culture, this is a TOV culture, this is a good way of using power. And maybe not so good way of using power. It's a beautiful thing, when you see somebody in power, use that power to protect others to draw out someone who's quiet, who wouldn't normally speak, to be able to notice the weak and the vulnerable and to use the power to protect and to help. SCOT McKNIGHT 32:39 I think people who use power well, are not recognized as using power. Because something happens and you go, Oh, that was really nice. And you didn't realize that that leader decided to elevate somebody in a way that empowered them. So when they're empowering others, you usually don't recognize that they're using power. It's when they violate the power. A good umpire in a baseball game is unrecognized. And when you're talking about the umpires, it's because they screwed up. They messed up stuff. You notice it. “That was terrible!” And I think that's the same way with leaders. If you don't recognize their leadership, and things are functioning pretty well, you probably got a pretty good leader. JULIE ROYS 33:33 That's good. Yeah, I would say the number one problem of most of the bad leaders that I report on, obviously, the character issues there and everything, but the way it often comes out is in hypocrisy. They're just not living, what they say they believe. And you make a big point of one of the priorities is you got to model. You got to be the example of what you want your culture to be. And I love this, one of the people that you talk about modeling this goodness is, as you said, Mr. Rogers. Explain how Mr. Rogers is modeling exactly what he's teaching. LAURA BARRINGER 34:14 Well, when we went to write A Church Called TOV, I kept sending my dad examples like, what about this pastor or this one? And he kept saying, no, no, no. And he said, We need somebody that's dead. (laguhter) Because–that's exactly what he said–they have to be dead. Because there's too many scandals that erupt. And sure enough, we have a story in A Church Called TOV, that when it went to the next printing, we had to remove because the pastor, allegations etc. So we use Mr. Rogers as our example. Mr. Rogers, from everything we have read about him, the man that you saw on TV was the man that everybody knew. He was patient. He was gentle. He was just as kind in person as he was on the television screen. He would get distracted by children, he would tell Oprah, I'll come on your show, but you can't have children in the audience because I will be distracted, I will be I know that I will be, all of my attention will go to them the vulnerable. That's what my heart and soul is, is for. And so when you said hypocrisy, that's the opposite of Mr. Rogers, there are some beautiful stories that we recited in the book about him that he is as good a man as he appeared to be. JULIE ROYS 35:35 Hmm. And there was one in the book, I thought was so touching about a man whose wife . . . was the wife, the employee, I believe, or was LAURA BARRINGER 35:44 The wife was the employee. JULIE ROYS 35:46 Yeah. So the wife was the employee, and she died. It sounds like young, got cancer and, and Mr. Rogers would show up and visit, you know, visited on a regular basis. And the day she died, he he knocked on the door and said, I just had a sense that, that you needed me today, or you needed to be visited today. And here, she was dying. And he came in and cried with him, you know, as his wife was dying and prayed with him. And the husband said, he never talked about it. Nobody ever heard that story about Mr. Rogers. LAURA BARRINGER 36:21 He didn't get up and talk about the ways that he volunteered or helped people. I also love the story about the reporter who maybe this is in A Church Called TOV. No. I remember I don't remember no. He said, “Do you know, who is the most important person in the world to me right now?” And the reporter was like, Who who is the most important person? Mr. Rogers said, “You, I'm talking to you, you have my full attention. You're the most important person in the world to me right now.” And the reporter was, like, stunned that a celebrity would spend that much time and give him that much attention for I think he said an hour which was unheard of with celebrities, interviews. JULIE ROYS 37:05 Well, and as a reporter, you're just happy when somebody wants to talk to you because most of the people I talk to, they don't want to talk to me. SCOT McKNIGHT 37:13 But Julie, you know the issues of the people that that we want to find out more about, that have become celebrities that Katelyn Beaty has written about. They're there. And you just think they're just amazing because of the platform persona, that they've presented in their pastoral sermons. You just go, “I want to be like that person.” Okay, so the tendency is to make those the examples. And all you see about them is the presentation on the platform. And that's why I said to Laura, we can't take living examples now. I mean, yes, I understood what she was doing. And she had some wonderful stories, and they they truly are probably good people. But because I'm older, you know, I think when when I wrote when we wrote TOV I was probably 65. JULIE ROYS 38:10 A whippersnapper. SCOT McKNIGHT 38:11 Yeah, I was young compared to the day. here were people that we wanted, you know, that I could easily say they were fantastic people that in the last five years, I would say, Well, maybe that's not so true. So it was important for me I finally said, Laura, we got to find dead people whose whose stories are unimpeachable. But I have found stories of people that I have exalted in my years as a professor. I've written I've used their names. And I discovered later that they were horrific people. And nobody knew. Nobody was talking. Because even in those days, you didn't talk about things like that. We, I mean, when Kennedy was a president, we didn't talk about what was going on in the White House, behind closed doors. Now we know these things. So that's why we went with dead people. But but nobody questions Mr. Rogers. And so we used him in both books. LAURA BARRINGER 39:09 I remember that–my dad's texts, “Nope, only dead people.” JULIE ROYS 39:13 Problem is even dead people, Ravi Zacharias that didn't come out, you know, until after he was dead. But I mean, obviously, a little better if they've had a little bit of time, between their life and some study of the kind of person they were, SCOT McKNIGHT 39:30 I would also say that nobody's perfect. Not many people are like Mr. Rogers. So people with warts and all is not the worst thing. David is hardly a beautiful character in all the pages of the Bible. The apostle Paul can lash out at people. I don't know about Peter. Mary seems to be a good person, other than the fact that she's trying to tell Jesus what to do and how to be a messiah. So we just we can't expect perfection but we expect a certain level of maturity that we can count on. And we may find out that Pastor got really mad one day and said something he shouldn't have, but he admitted it. JULIE ROYS 40:11 That's a big one to me is Do you hear the pastor admitting wrong, asking for forgiveness, because that needs to be a regular practice. Let's talk about some of these practices of transforming cultures. And you talk about there being a transformational agent. Normally, when you see these kinds of transformations happening, and as well, a transformational coalition. SCOT McKNIGHT 40:35 Julie, let's just say you realize your church has got some stuff in the soil that needs to be healed. Alright. And you go through a process of discovery. And you come up with five things that we need to work on in the next five years. All right, I think that's a pretty normal process. I don't believe that the pastor should be in charge of all this. Now, in most churches, I believe the pastor will be in charge of this because the pastor is in charge of everything. But I think it should be handed off to a transformation agent, who is independent, and can get more honest responses from people than the pastor can, unless the transformation agent is just a flying monkey, as the as the words are used, or a mole for the pastor. If it's a person of character, they're going to be trusted, and the pastor is going to have to listen to the results. But I think it's good to have a transformation agent whose responsibility it is to organize administrate, to evaluate, and to pass the information on so that it can be implemented in a really good way to the leadership of the church. But it can't just be one person or two people. And it's not based on it's not a bunch of sermons, LAURA BARRINGER 41:52 I don't want to skip over something really important that we learned from Edgar Schein, again, the major researcher on this topic of transforming culture, is he said, You can't transform anything until your problem is clearly defined and crystal clear. That's what led us to write the TOV tool so that it can help groups or whomever is taking it churches, groups, teams, clearly identify areas of strength, and then areas where growth is important. And Edgar Schein said, that's like the most important step of all is listening. And that might take a lot of conversation and a lot of authenticity and hearing maybe things about yourself, you don't want to hear. But that's like one of the most important steps is identifying, “we are not putting people above the reputation of our institution.” Or, “it seems like we're really good at truth telling, but we're not offering a lot of justice to the wounded.” So every organization is different. But those conversations where you unearth, what are the strengths, and where do we need to grow in these areas of like that we created the TOV tool out of our circle of TOV from the first book. It just cannot be skipped over. And then that can be used by the transformation agent and the coalition to have some data and listening as they move forward or attempt to move forward. SCOT McKNIGHT 43:28 And I would add to the coalition is you can't transform a culture because you're a persuasive speaker, with a couple of friends in your church that are all doing this. It takes a culture's ownership to get there. So our theory is okay, we got a transformation agent and a couple people, they studied the Bible, I won't get into all that, then it grows to a group of five. And then it grows to a group of 10. And then it splits into a couple more groups that grow to a group of 30 or 40. And you're starting to build a critical mass of people who are committed to this idea and working it out. But they're contributing to the idea. So it's not like I got a great idea. Now we're gonna go implement it. It is, I have an idea. Let's work on this together. And before long once you get 50 to 75 people involved in it, there's ownership but the idea has now grown into something that is healthier, stronger, deeper, wider. It starts to get ownership, if you have a fairly sizable church, before you go to the church. JULIE ROYS 44:36 And I think what's to me exciting about listening about some churches that did this. And even hearing you talk about it, this is a very organic thing that happens as people are discussing this and something starts to grow. I mean, basically, this culture begins to reform as people are reforming. Right? And they're beginning to model it, and they're beginning to change, and so then you begin to see this transformation happen. And then hopefully you're moving into a different culture. Right? And the congregation becomes a different kind of culture. And those who quite frankly, don't buy into it, leave. I mean, I remember the power of that when we did youth ministry, like we just said, from the beginning, we don't do entertainment, the world does that better than us. But if you want to come and worship and pray, like, we're really going to be a part of that, and studying the Bible, and the ones that weren't interested in that would just fall off. And then we would gather a group of people who really wanted to do that, and it became our culture. But it takes that kind of time. But you talk about then the last part of your book about the powers and the congregational culture powers, I thought it was really interesting, especially Laura, when you were talking about kind of the practices that led to a culture at Willow Creek when you were there. And then you contrasted that with these practices that led to a culture at this Quaker church that was completely different. Talk about that, because I thought, it's such a great example and a contrast, because we often don't think about what we're doing when we're doing it, and how this is creating a culture. But I think, as I was reading it, it made me think about things that I'm doing, and what kind of culture does that create? So yeah, talk about that. LAURA BARRINGER 46:29 So I didn't really realize what the culture of Willow Creek was, until I left Willow Creek. And being out of it allowed me to see and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying like, factually, there are a lot of people that attend, they put people up on stage, that walk through the campus with bodyguards. And there's sort of a feel of like haves have nots, or the whole service leads up to what the speaker is going to say. And you know, weeks ahead of time, who's going to be speaking and like Mark, and I'd be the first to tell you, like, we got into a terrible rut at Willow, we were like, Oh, we don't really like that speaker. So we're not going to go this week, you know, our neighbors would be like, come for a bike ride. Okay, we'll do that instead, like, we were just consumers of a show. So we left Willow Creek and experienced the Anglican tradition, which is very different. But then what I wrote about in the book, I tried to get into less Twitter fights or whatever X fights? JULIE ROYS 47:37 It's weird. It's just weird. LAURA BARRINGER 47:39 I know. One day, I just wandered into this, like delightful conversation with a Quaker pastor. And I remember his name, because we have a family friend of the same name, Scott Wagner, and he posted pictures, and I don't know anything about the Quakers other than what I've read, you know, just a little bit. So I'm not I don't know where they stand theologically at all. But his pictures were so startling to me. They were getting ready for a meeting. And the chairs were set up in a circle. And it was just in this like, small room with wooden floors. And after coming out of the Willow Creek tradition was like, well, where's the speaker gonna stand? But that wasn't what the goal was at all. It was like a meeting where everybody was seen as equals. And I don't know, it seems like is that how the early church was? That's how I picture people in my head, like, sitting in a circle together. Not like all of us staring at a person on stage. JULIE ROYS 48:44 I have to say, being in a house church now and experiencing meeting in homes, and we haven't had a sermon. You know, in the past 18 months since I've been going to our house church. There's no sermon. We're opening the Bible. And there's a facilitator and we dig in together, and we study the Bible together. And I just love it. I mean, I come away every Sunday, it's like, wow, that was rich, that was really good. And I've gone to a church too where we were in the round, in fact, is one of your colleagues there, Dave Fitch, his church that we attended, where we would have the chairs all in a circle, I love that, I think in the Anglican tradition, instead of the sermon being the highlight, really, the table is. Eucharist. That's the highlight, and that communicates a value. So I think looking at what are we doing in the service, and I have wondered about this. And to me, the fact that we make a man on stage preaching, which is very heavy head knowledge. And I'm not saying that's wrong, but I'm, I often wonder if that's sort of a post enlightenment way of thinking that the pinnacle of the service is the sermon? SCOT McKNIGHT 49:56 It happened at the reformation that turned the sermon into a major, the major focus. The early church didn't have sermons. LAURA BARRINGER 50:04 They had letters, right? They would hear, read letters? JULIE ROYS 50:07 And at that one sermon where, what is it Eutychus? Fell out the window and died. You know, SCOT McKNIGHT 50:12 Paul was talking, he was talking. But I mean, it was a it was a house church, you're talking about a normal sized living room with maybe an atrium with some water in the middle. And people around it talking and someone instructors instruction. There'd be the reading of a letter. There'd be the exposition of a psalm or something. And eventually, they would read scriptures and then preach about or teach about it. But it was a fellowship, where there was instruction, there was prayer, there was worship, there was caring for one another. And that's where the church got started. Jesus didn't preach sermons in the houses, he told stories, parables, it's where the parables came from. JULIE ROYS 50:59 Well, obviously, there's a lot of things that we can do to sort of jumpstart transformation. We've talked about some of those. But I love that you kind of land this book with where the power really comes from. And it's from the Holy Spirit, and it's from God's grace. So talk about the importance of relying on the Spirit, and grace, so that we're not manufacturing something but we're actually being led by God. SCOT McKNIGHT 51:31 When we were writing this book, I told Laura, probably 10 times, every chapter could be the first chapter. They were all interlocking. LAURA BARRINGER 51:39 We had trouble ordering the chapters. SCOT McKNIGHT 51:42 And theologically, I wanted to begin with that theological ending, but I know that just sounds like I'm a seminary professor. And we've got to get people interested in the topic first. So the neuralgics is what it's called sometimes. So yeah, I think the example of Christ, the significance of the Holy Spirit being open to the Spirit, the power of God's grace, which is operative, in the example of Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, all those things are what ultimately is responsible for transformation of an individual person, and of a community, a church. If we think it's just mechanics, and structure, and system and program, it's gonna go dry. But when it is the dynamic of the Spirit of God, leading us, prompting us, directing us, making us change, making us think of new things, we're in the right place. LAURA BARRINGER 52:39 That's what I love about the story of Oak Hills is that they say we felt this sense of dis equilibrium in our soul. And they surrendered to what they felt the Spirit was telling them and leading them. And they followed. And I think they would say, the transformation was worth it. Rather than having consumers, they were discipling people to grow in Christ. And they were like, we just steadily pushed against the culture, and taught people how to live like Jesus. That was it. JULIE ROYS 53:12 And I believe that Jesus said, his last words were not to go and make big churches or converts. But yeah, to make disciples, that is, what the church should be doing. And so I just really appreciate what you guys have put together here in this book, and that you're really moving people, I think, towards something beautiful and something good. Any last thoughts or final encouragement for those who might be thinking of embarking on this journey of trying to transform or are in the midst of it. And I mean, as I said, at the beginning, it's not for the faint of heart, it's not going to be easy. It could be a seven year or even longer process, any encouragement for them right now. SCOT McKNIGHT 54:00 I would say go with it. There's going to be many times when you'd like to return back to where you started and say, we'll just go back to where it was working. Roll with it. Because it's going to be different for every group. But it's worth it to pursue this direction, to see what God can do in your church and in your institution, over time, as you begin to focus on, let's say, the power of God's grace to transform us into being people who are like Jesus Christ. JULIE ROYS 54:34 And that's pretty exciting. LAURA BARRINGER 54:36 Amen. JULIE ROYS 54:37 Well, again, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you and appreciate the ministry that you're having and the impact that you're having. This has been extremely helpful. So thank you. SCOT McKNIGHT 54:48 Thank you, Julie. LAURA BARRINGER 54:49 Thank you for having us. SCOT McKNIGHT 54:51 Thanks, Laura. LAURA BARRINGER 54:52 Thanks, Dad. JULIE ROYS 54:54 Scot and Laura, thank you so much for the gift of this book—and the gift of your time today. This has been so helpful . . . And if you'd like a copy of Scot & Laura's new book, Pivot, we would be happy to send you one for a gift of $30 or more to The Roys Report. Again, we don't have any large donors or advertising. We simply have you—the people who care about exposing toxic churches and leaders, and then encouraging them to transform into TOV ones. So, if you'd like to support our work and get the book Pivot, just go to JulieRoys.com/donate. Also, I want to let you know that next week, I'll be releasing another talk from Restore by Carson Weitnauer on Disillusionment and Hope. This is an extremely vulnerable and moving talk where Carson tells his profound disillusionment when he discovered the truth about Ravi Zacharias. At the time, Carson was a director at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries—and Ravi had been his hero. This is such a painfully honest, yet hopeful, talk—and one you won't want to miss. So, be watching for that. We'll release the talk as both an audio podcast and a video at my YouTube channel. Also, just a quick reminder to subscribe to The Roys Report on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. That way, you won't miss any of these episodes! And while you're at it, I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review. And then, please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content. Again, thanks for joining me today! Hope you were blessed and encouraged! Read more

188. Leading People While Following Jesus, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson

Spiritual Life and Leadership

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 31, 2023 6:43

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss a quote from Scot McKnight. The quote challenges the notion that leaders ought to control and asserts, instead, that leaders, particularly pastors, are actually followers of Jesus. Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of biblical leadership, rooted in self-sacrifice, care, and a focus on mission. He highlights the need to move away from dysfunctional patterns of leadership and instead raise up models of leadership that honor Jesus and reflect God's desire for the world. Ultimately, leadership is seen as a function, not a title, with leaders taking personal responsibility and inviting others to join in following Jesus and fulfilling His mission on Earth.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot McKnight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse."We are not leaders of others; we are followers of Jesus. 'Join us in following Jesus,' is the pastor's call."Ep. 92 is a conversation inspired by Scot Mcknight's and Laura Barringer's book, A Church Called Tov.Download the FREE course, Becoming Leaders of Shalom.

god jesus christ culture earth conversations abuse following jesus shalom leading people scot mcknight tod bolsinger bolsinger laura barringer church called tov

Pivot: An Interview with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Rainer on Leadership

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 19, 2023 27:09

Sam welcomes father-daughter duo and theologians Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. In their book “Pivot,” Scot and Laura help churches to implement practices, establish priorities, and cultivate gospel-centered qualities that form goodness cultures. Scot is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary. Laura is a teacher and coauthored “A Church Called Tov” with Scot. The post Pivot: An Interview with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer appeared first on Church Answers.

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Creating a Tov Culture with Dr. Scot McKnight

Truth Trauma Theology

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 14, 2023 52:30

After the release of their groundbreaking book, A Church Called Tov, which recorded the stories of abuse and toxic church cultures at some of the most prominent churches in the United States, New Testament scholar and blogger for Christianity Today Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer heard from a flood of people who had experienced similar instances of abuse. After all they've seen and heard, they still believe it's possible for church cultures to be transformed from toxic to tov—from oppressive to good. In Pivot, Scot and Laura help churches to implement practices,establish priorities, and cultivate the Kingdom Gospel-centered qualities that form goodness cultures. Readers will find answers to the four most common questions people have about culture transformation: How can I transform the culture in my church or organization to make it tov? I believe my workplace has unhealthy values. How do I initiate change? How do I unleash a culture of goodness in my ministry? I'm not in a position of church leadership. What are some red flags that indicate a toxic culture, and what can I do if I see them? Pivot also includes the following practical features: The “Tov tool,” a survey to help you discern your organization's culture and to promote spiritual conversations A “getting to work” section at the end of each chapter with questions and next steps for application Transformation is never easy. But for the sake of the next generation, we must do it. Scot McKnight (PhD, University of Nottingham) is a world-renowned speaker, writer, professor, and equipper of the Church. He is a recognized authority on the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and the New Testament. His books have been translated into Chinese, Korean, Russian, and Portuguese. He is the author of The Jesus Creed, The Blue Parakeet, The King Jesus Gospel, Revelation for the Rest of Us, numerous commentaries, and is now writing a sixteen-volume series of reflections called The Everyday Bible Study.

How Every Church Can Pivot to Be Tov with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Craft & Character

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 12, 2023 54:46

How do we call out injustice and seek shalom without becoming self-righteous? In their new book, Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church Into a Tov Culture, father-daughter duo Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer follow up their previous book, A Church Called Tov一charting a course for those seeking to create a healthier church culture. In this episode, they share with Steve Carter: How healthier churches exist when leaders listen to the Spirit and surrender to his leading. How to build a church culture in which power is stewarded, not abused; where people are shepherded, not manipulated; where leadership is accountable, not untouchable. How to diagnose the health of your heart and team, even when everything looks “put-together” externally. How to respond thoughtfully to abuse and scandal in the digital age. This book is a must-read for any pastor, leader, discipler, human, who aches to see the church become tov. EPISODE LINKS Scot and Laura's co-written books: Pivot, A Church Called Tov Laura's website: https://www.laurabarringer.net/ Scot's Substack: https://scotmcknight.substack.com/ https://www.churchcalledtov.org/ @scotmcknight @laurambarringer @steveryancarter @craft_character Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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#116 Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer - "Pivot" to Healthy Church

Common Grounds Unity Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 1, 2023 54:34

Kevin has a great conversation with the authors of "A Church Called Tov" and "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture," Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. "Pivot" is the follow-up book to "A Church Called TOV" Purchase Scot and Laura's latest book, "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture," at https://www.amazon.com/Pivot-Priorities-Practices-Transform-Culture-ebook/dp/B0BX187ZTD Available Sept. 19, 2023 CGU creates spaces for Christians to gather so that we might recognize Jesus in one another. If you are blessed by this ministry, please consider a tax-deductible monthly donation. Please donate at https://www.commongroundsunity.org/donate. Please check out commongroundsunity.org to learn more about CGU, how to subscribe to the newsletter, join the Facebook group, or find the YouTube Channel. Check out the gatherings page, where you can connect with other unity-minded Christians in your area. If you cannot find a gathering in your area, we can help you start one. It's not difficult or time-consuming, and we will help you out along the way. It really does, simply, start with a cup of coffee. If you want to volunteer or ask questions, please email John at john@commongroundsunity.org. Until next time, God bless, and remember, “Unity Starts With A Cup of Coffee.” The Common Grounds Unity theme music for our intro and exit for Season 3 is Cody Martin's "Forever with You." Download and permission to use from Sound Stripe.

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Hope Talks: Laura Barringer

You Start Today with Dr. Lee Warren | Weekly Prescriptions to Become Healthier, Feel Better, and Be Happier.

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 12, 2023 39:12

Laura Barringer is a Teacher, Writer, and TMT SurvivorWe had a wonderful talk about what to do in the acute phase of your massive thing (TMT), what to do when you're stuck, and how God is faithful in all of it.You can pre-order Laura's new book, Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture, by clicking the button below.Laura's first book, A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing was one of my favorite books of 2021.Scripture: Psalm 46:10, Psalm 34:18Music by Eileen and Tommy Walker(Music shared on The Dr. Lee Warren Podcast is authorized under BMI license #61063253 and ASCAP license #400010513 )My new book is called Hope is the First Dose: A Treatment Plan for Recovering from Trauma, Tragedy, and Other Massive Things.Laura's endorsement of Hope Is the First Dose: “I found refuge within the pages of Dr. Warren's writing. His words of God's goodness and hope guided me through the darkness of trauma and pain and led me to the good, comforting presence of our Great Physician.”—Laura Barringer, co-author of A Church Called Tov and PivotIf you want to WEAR hope, you can order tee shirts and other gear from my website! Check out the store here:And we have a new YouVersion/Bible App 5-Day Bible Study available now!Self-Brain Surgery with Dr. Lee Warren is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit drleewarren.substack.com/subscribe

S5 EP:1 Having a TOV Church with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Everyday Theology

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 10, 2023 47:24

You cannot seem to escape it, church scandal after church scandal, with no clear end in sight. It should not surprise us that church attendance in the Unites States is dropping, and quickly. How do we fix it? How do we create a church that is good and one that fulfills its purpose? In 2020 Scot and Laura published their book, "A Church Called Tov" discussing some of these pressing issues surrounding the church. On Sept 19th their latest book "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture" will be available. Scot and Laura join Aaron to discuss what are some of the practices to help craft a church into a Tov culture, what can one do who is not in leadership in a church in this vision, and what do we do with power and authority (when it is often used so poorly)?

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54 - Abusive Pastors, Fallen Mega Churches. And What About Seacoast?

The Seacoast Podcast: Things You Won't Hear On Sunday

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 7, 2023 100:57

Kathy and Chip, two friends of our lead and founding Pastors working closely with both, join Lynne and Joey to discuss the toxic cultures and pastor downfalls that mega churches are unfortunately being increasingly known for. Both are fairly confident that our two main leaders won't have similar falls.During the course of this conversation, we have guest segments with Laura Barringer (co-author of A Church Called Tov) as well as with Joey's friend, Hayden, who experienced very poor treatment by church leadership during a very low season of life. Joey also brings on former staff members he worked alongside to talk about the special working relationships they all shared during time leading a Seacoast church location together. Lastly, Zach Bolen, solo artist and singer/song-writer of the band Citizens, shares perspective on today's subject at hand, based on his experiences at multiple churches. The episode closes with a song from his band.Stay ConnectedWebsite | Facebook Discussion Page In this episodeKathy Roseborough / InstagramJoey Svendsen / InstagramLynne Stroy / InstagramChip Judd / InstagramJack Hoey III, host / InstagramLaura Barringer / Instagram / Book / WebsiteHayden Corr / InstagramSarah Eller / InstagramRobbie Madison / InstagramZach Bolen / Instagram / Spotify / Apple MusicSpecial MusicNatasha Gray's "Stones" is from her newest album "Reminders" // Spotify / Apple MusicZach Bolen's "A Thousand Shores," courtesy of his band Citizens, is from the album "I Can't Find the Edges of You" // Spotify / Apple Music Executive Producer: Josh SurrattProducer/Editor: Joey SvendsenSound Engineer/Editor: JT PriceSound Engineer: Katelyn VandiverMusic, theme song: Joel T. Hamilton Music

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”Pivot” & Culture Transformation with Laura Barringer and Scot McKnight

Digical Education

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 11, 2023 33:43

I had the opportunity to interview my friend and fellow educator, Laura Barringer, a couple of years ago on her book "A Church Called Tov" and what it might mean for us in our classrooms and schools as educators. This conversation we added her father and New Testament scholar, Scot McKnight, who coauthored "Pivot: The Priorities, Practices, and Powers That Can Transform Your Church into a Tov Culture" which comes out in September.

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Church After Mars Hill | Dr. Joel Aguilar

Transforming Engagement, the Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 27, 2023 63:45

Mars Hill Church pastor Mark Driscoll was known to portray Jesus as a warrior or an “ultimate fighter” in his teachings. He wasn't the only one. In the Western church, our society's obsession with violence and militarism has found its way into our theology in subtle - and not so subtle - ways. But is this an accurate portrayal of Christ, the Prince of Peace? This week, host Joel Kiekintveld is joined by Dr. Joel Aguilar to talk about how we can construct our churches in a non-violent way by looking at scripture through the lens of the forgiving victim. Supporting resources: Read the transcript from today's episode at transformingengagement.org/podcast Dr. Aguilar presents the theories of mimetic desire and rivalry from René Girard in this conversation. You can read more about Girard's life and work here. Other resources cited for further exploration: read the works of James Alison, Catholic theologian, priest, and author, and check out A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. If you are a Christian leader or pastor seeking a space for support, growth, and transformation for yourself or for your team, we invite you to participate in one of our cohort programs, called a Circle. To learn more and to get on the waitlist to be notified when our next Circle is offered, click here.

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56. Church culture: Why it's so important with Dr. Scot McKnight.

Reclamation: An NWM Initiative

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 22, 2023 48:52

"I learned it, I practiced it, and then I passed it on to others." This simple line from Dr. Scot McKnight's book “A Church Called Tov” describes how culture happens in any group or organization. Sometimes individuals stick around in hopes of changing a toxic culture into a healthy one, but that's rarely what actually happens. Why? Listen in to find out! ---------------- Support this work by visiting https://www.beemboldened.com/donate to make a tax-deductible donation (formerly Naomi Wright Ministries / NWM).

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Change: Dr. Scot McKnight on Reviving the Original Context in His Second Testament Translation

Play Episode Listen Later May 24, 2023 58:16 Transcription Available

Discover the unexpected twist in Dr. Scot McKnight's journey toward creating a more literal Bible translation that will leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about the New Testament. Are you ready to slow down, think, and immerse yourself in the first-century Christian world?Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scot McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. When it comes to women in ministry, though, and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tove" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Pre-order Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament. Use AWORLD23 to get 30% off plus free shipping at @ivpress.com on The Second Testament through June 7.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's Substack newsletter, the Jesus Creed.Consider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight at Northern Seminary.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, the Jesus Creed.Read Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long...

Change: Dr. Scot McKnight on Reviving the Original Context in His Second Testament Translation

Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick

Play Episode Listen Later May 24, 2023 59:49 Transcription Available

Discover the unexpected twist in Dr. Scot McKnight's journey toward creating a more literal Bible translation that will leave you questioning everything you thought you knew about the New Testament. Are you ready to slow down, think, and immerse yourself in the first-century Christian world?Words matter, especially in translations of the Bible. Join us as we dive into the world of New Testament translations with Scot McKnight and uncover the importance of accurate translations and the impact they can have. When it comes to women in ministry, though, and the use of certain words, will the translation choices make or break their place in the church? Find out in this thought-provoking discussion.In this episode, you will be able to:Recognize the value of cultural understanding and meticulous translation in the proper interpretation of the Bible.Delve into the intricate dynamics of power within the church and their varied consequences.Learn how to address spiritual abuse effectively and foster a support system for survivors.Embrace the core principles of good leadership and the altruistic use of power in ministry.Highlight the vital insights shared by women scholars and survivors for a more inclusive faith community.My special guest is Dr. Scot McKnightMeet Dr. Scot McKnight, a renowned New Testament professor at Northern Seminary in Illinois and a prolific author with a passion for diving deep into the cultural context of biblical texts. As a guest on Lori Adams-Brown's podcast, Scot brings his expertise in Bible translation and interpretation, having written over 90 books, including widely-read titles like "A Church Called Tove" and "The Blue Parakeet." A dedicated advocate for abuse survivors and a favorite professor among his students, Dr. McKnight's insights are sure to enrich your understanding of the Bible."I believe in the power of a more literal translation."- Dr. Scot McKnightThe resources mentioned in this episode are:Pre-order Dr. Scott McKnight's new translation of the New Testament, The Second Testament. Use AWORLD23 to get 30% off plus free shipping at @ivpress.com on The Second Testament through June 7.Subscribe to Dr. McKnight's Substack newsletter, the Jesus Creed.Consider taking Greek classes with Dr. McKnight at Northern Seminary.Purchase Dr. McKnight's books, including A Church Called Tov, The King Jesus Gospel, and The Blue Parakeet.Follow Dr. McKnight's blog, the Jesus Creed.Read Dr. McKnight's contributions as general editor of the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters.Explore the Everyday Bible series, including the First Testament by John Golden Gay and The Kingdom New Testament by Tom Wright.The Way of JesusGood leadership in the church involves recognizing, using, and sharing power in ways that are faithful to the teachings of Jesus. Followers of Jesus should strive to cultivate humility, compassion, and an attitude of serving others, often forgoing one's power to benefit those who are more vulnerable. Dr. Scot McKnight, during the podcast interview, mentioned several examples of power abuse in the church, contrasting them with the biblical teachings of Jesus. He specifically cited Romans 16 and Philippians 2:1-11, which emphasize the concept of Kenosis – the act of laying down one's power to serve others. McKnight believes that understanding this concept and applying it in the context of leadership and church relationships is essential to embodying the way of Jesus and countering the negative aspects of power dynamics in churches."Words deeply matter, and those words can wound and they can hurt for a long...

Episode 262 - Laura Barringer, "A Church Called TOV"

Play Episode Listen Later May 19, 2023 44:12 Transcription Available

“Only one side could be telling the truth and it's really disturbing either way.” - Laura BarringerOn this episode of Restoring the Soul, Michael welcomes Laura Barringer to the podcast.Over the past decade, we have seen incredible examples of toxic church culture that has upended congregations and has left thousands of church staff and congregants confused and shaken. In 2020 Laura co-authored a book with her father titled “A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.” Together, they dedicated the book to “the wounded resisters” which provides a framework to create a “good” church culture rather than a toxic one to prevent further abuse. As you'll hear in her interview with Michael, Laura has firsthand experience of toxic church culture.Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College and makes her home in the Chicago suburbs with her husband and three beagles. HELPFUL RESOURCES:A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes HealingDiscover how the barrier built by porn addiction can become a bridge to abundant life.What if lust for porn is really a search for true passion?In a world where there are 68 million searches for pornography every day and where over 70 percent of Christian men report viewing porn in the last year, it's no surprise that more and more men struggle with an addiction to this false fantasy. Common wisdom says if they just had more willpower or more faith, their fight would be over. Contact Restoring the Soul:- Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS- Like us on Facebook- Email us at info@restoringthesoul.comThanks for listening!

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060 - Scot McKnight - The Second Testament

Mike's Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 16, 2023 54:55

Scot McKnight is the Julius R. Mantey Chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary. He's the author of numerous books including Jesus Creed, Blue Parakeet, King Jesus Gospel and A Church Called Tov, which he co-authored with his daughter Laura Barringer. Today we're talking about a new New Testament translation that Scot has completed that will be released on June 6. In our interview, Scot calls it a "crunchy and clunky translation" as a way of describing some of how he approached this work. It's a translation that will cause you to experience some of the New Testament in fresh ways because of the choices he makes. Check out The Second Testament Find Scot at Scot's Newsletter Substack Twitter

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160. A Church That Demonstrates God's Goodness, a Quick Conversation with Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson

Spiritual Life and Leadership

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 18, 2023 8:16

Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot Mcknight in Episode 92: Against a Culture of Abuse."A tov pastor, tov leaders, a tov church does not abuse power, does not sexually abuse women, does not sexually abuse children.... Tov people don't do these things."Ep. 92 is a conversation with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their book, A Church Called Tov.Learn how to lead your church into ministry that matters. Check out my online course, Engaging God's Mission.

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"I'm telling Santa on you:" Building culture with Laura Barringer

Just Schools

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 18, 2023 30:51

Putting people first is a big part of living tov. Today, Laura Barringer, author and kindergarten teacher, joins Jon Eckert to discuss her 20-plus year teaching career and her unexpected journey to writing her book, A Church Called Tov. She details how living tov has enabled her to see each student as individuals and create respectful, safe spaces for them.To learn more, order Jon's book, Just Teaching: Feedback, Engagement, and Well-Being for Each Student.The Just Schools Podcast is brought to you by the Baylor Center for School Leadership. Each week, we'll talk to catalytic educators who are doing amazing work.Be encouraged.Timestamps:[1:44] - Jon introduces Laura.[3:10] - Laura discusses her unexpected journey to writing her book.[5:24] - There are a lot of lessons about living Tov that can be applied to teaching.[8:13] - Kindergarten is hope.[12:35] - Laura shares a life-giving moment she recently experienced.[16:06] - Having open communication with colleges is important.[19:00] - Creating respectful spaces helps students talk about things that don't feel safe.[21:50] - Laura strives to resist toxicity within her classroom.[23:00] - Jon puts Laura through a lightning round of questions.Books:A Chuch Called Tov by Laura BarringerConnect on Social Media:Baylor MA in School LeadershipBaylor Doctorate in EducationJon Eckert: @eckertjonCenter for School Leadership at Baylor University: @baylorcsl

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Scot McKnight on A Church Called Tov

The Clarity Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 19, 2023 44:36

Scot McKnight co-author of the book A Church called Tov joins us on the podcast today to discuss the book he wrote with Laura Barringer on how we can shape culture to represent Christ.Send questions for Back Channel with Foth to aaron.santmyire@agwmafrica.org

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A Response to Josh Butler

The Alabaster Jar

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 9, 2023 35:48

In this special podcast episode, we brought together three professors from Northern Seminary to talk about the recent Gospel Coalition article by Josh Butler. Dr. Beth Felker Jones has written a book called Faithful: A Theology of Sex and as a systematic theologian, she is able to help us understand human sexuality from a theological perspective. Beth recently wrote a piece on her Substack that gave us eight reasons why Butler's piece was bad theology. Dr. Lynn Cohick is a New Testament scholar and has written a commentary on Ephesians. She is well-suited to address the Ephesians 5 text Butler's article was based upon. Dr. Scot McKnight has written extensively about the culture of the church in his book, A Church Called Tov, which looks closely at themes of abuse. Scot recently responded in his own Substack to Butler's article by giving three considerations about the culture that produced it. Content Warning: Please be aware that Butler's article included graphic descriptions of sex and some of the conversation in this podcast will include some frank conversation about sex, reference intimate partner violence, and refer to some theology which is very bad for women.

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Episode 247 - Kevin Tracy, "Holy Handcuffs"

Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 20, 2023 70:28 Transcription Available

“How do you restart a dormant career without destroying everything that you love in the process?” - Kevin TracyIf you haven't heard, the church has been experiencing a mass exodus of pastors. Not because they are commissioned to plant new churches or join the mission field. They're leaving the ministry altogether. There are several reasons behind this trend. COVID wreaked havoc on the church, and political division has caused many pastors to rethink their calling. Recent data collected from the Barna organization indicated that U.S. pastors are currently in crisis and at risk of burnout. In 2021 alone, there was a dramatic increase in the number of pastors thinking about quitting ministry entirely. According to Barna, 38 percent indicated they have considered leaving full-time ministry within the past year. On today's edition of Restoring the Soul, Michael welcomes Kevin Tracy to the podcast. Kevin leads an organization called No Holy Handcuffs, whose primary mission is to help pastors discover how to leave the ministry & recover their calling. Helpful Resources:PodcastsEpisode 132 - Rev. Dr. Dennis Edwards, "Turning the Tables on Injustice"Episode 212 - Laura Barringer, "A Church Called TOV"WebsiteNo Holy Handcuffs Contact Restoring the Soul:- Tweet us at @michaeljcusick and @PodcastRTS- Like us on Facebook- Email us at info@restoringthesoul.comThanks for listening!

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Tov for Women 2021 - KR 204

Kingdom Roots with Scot McKnight

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 20, 2022 36:23

Tov is a beautiful and mysterious Hebrew word that means “good.” Tov is about creating abundant spaces designed to help people live fully into their gifts. Based on Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's book, A Church Called Tov. In this inaugural Tov for Women message, we engage in meaningful dialogue on how to build organizational structures and cultures where everyone thrives. Register for Tov for Women: https://www.cwlnorthern.com/events

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Identifying Toxic Church Cultures: Interview With Scot McKnight

The Remnant Radio's Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 19, 2022 65:00

Identifying Toxic Church Cultures: Interview With Scot McKnightTragically, in recent years, Christians have gotten used to revelations of abuses of many kinds in our most respected churches―from Willow Creek to Harvest, from Southern Baptist pastors to Sovereign Grace churches.One of the best books I have read this year is "A Church Called Tov" by Scot Mcknight, which addresses this very issue. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. Abuses occur most frequently when Christians neglect to create a culture that resists abuse and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth.How do we keep these devastating events from repeating themselves? We need a map to get us from where we are today to where we ought to be as the body of Christ. Today Scott will be giving us steps to identify toxic cultures, but also how to build healthy church culture where the body of Christ can flourish. Donate (Paypal)https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=GC2Z86XHHG4X6___________________________________________________________________________________Exclusive Content (Patreon)https://www.patreon.com/TheRemnantRadio__________________________________________________________________________________We're social! Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TheRemnantRadioInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/theremnantradio/___________________________________________________________________________________Our Favorite Bookshttps://www.amazon.com/shop/theremnantradio___________________________________________________________________________________Michael Rowntree's Church Bridgewayhttps://www.bridgewaychurch.com/___________________________________________________________________________________Michael Miller's Church Reclamation Churchhttps://reclamationdenver.com/___________________________________________________________________________________Kairos Classroom: Use Promo Code Remnant for 10% offhttps://kairosclassroom.com/classes__________________________________________________________________________________The Gospel Of Mark Group Packets https://the-remnant-radio.creator-spring.com/listing/the-gospel-of-mark-workbooks________________________________________________________________________Download Free Ebookhttps://theremnantradio.com/free-ebook-download-2/__________________________________________________________________________________Free Mini E-coursehttps://remnant-university.teachable.com/p/free-mini-course__________________________________________________________________________________Word & Spirit School Of Ministry (117 Video Discipleship Course)https://remnant-university.teachable.com/p/remnant-universityKairos Classroom: Use Promo Code "Remnant" for 10% offhttps://kairosclassroom.com/classes Kairos Classroom: Use Promo Code Remnant for 10% offhttps://kairosclassroom.com/classesSupport the show

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A Church Called TOV – For Babylon and Beyond

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Play Episode Listen Later Oct 9, 2022 27:57

This is a Vintage Church Podcast sermon titled A Church Called TOV – For Babylon and Beyond given by Deacon Godsey, and is a part of the A Church Called […] The post A Church Called TOV – For Babylon and Beyond first appeared on Vintage Church, Lawrence KS.

A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Christlikeness

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Play Episode Listen Later Oct 2, 2022 32:01

This is a Vintage Church Podcast sermon titled A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Christlikeness given by Deacon Godsey, and is a part of the A Church Called TOV series. […] The post A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Christlikeness first appeared on Vintage Church, Lawrence KS.

A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Justice and Service

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Play Episode Listen Later Sep 25, 2022 26:39

This is a Vintage Church Podcast sermon titled A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Justice and Service given by Deacon Godsey, and is a part of the A Church Called […] The post A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Justice and Service first appeared on Vintage Church, Lawrence KS.

September 18, 2022 - A Church Called TOV, Week 2

CLCfamily.church

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 18, 2022 67:13

September 18, 2022 - A Church Called TOV, Week 2 by Christian Life Center

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A Church Called TOV – People and Truth

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Play Episode Listen Later Sep 18, 2022 27:51

This is a Vintage Church Podcast sermon titled A Church Called TOV – People and Truth given by Deacon Godsey, and is a part of the A Church Called TOV […] The post A Church Called TOV – People and Truth first appeared on Vintage Church, Lawrence KS.

September 11, 2022 - A Church Called TOV, Week 1

CLCfamily.church

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 11, 2022 61:14

September 11, 2022 - A Church Called TOV, Week 1 by Christian Life Center

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A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Empathy and Grace

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Play Episode Listen Later Sep 11, 2022 37:01

This is a Vintage Church Podcast sermon titled A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Empathy and Grace given by Deacon Godsey, and is a part of the A Church Called […] The post A Church Called TOV – Nurturing Empathy and Grace first appeared on Vintage Church, Lawrence KS.

A Church Called TOV – Every Church Has a Culture

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Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2022 29:32

This is a Vintage Church Podcast sermon titled A Church Called TOV – Every Church Has a Culture given by Deacon Godsey, and is a part of the A Church […] The post A Church Called TOV – Every Church Has a Culture first appeared on Vintage Church, Lawrence KS.

A Church Called Tov: Interview with Scot McKnight (The Church part 8)

Expedition 44

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 24, 2022 39:54

Scot McKnight joins Dr. Will Ryan and Matt to talk about the church. In this episode we discuss Scot's book “A Church Called Tov” about resisting toxic church culture and forming a goodness (tov) culture that promotes healing in our churches. Follow Scot McKnight: A Church Called Tov https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=a+church+called+tov+scot+mcknight&qid=1661285141&sprefix=a+church+calle%2Caps%2C194&sr=8-1 Blog https://www.christianitytoday.com/scot-mcknight/ Kingdom Roots Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/kingdom-roots-with-scot-mcknight/id1078739516

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50: Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer share what they have learned from publishing A Church Called Tov

Untangled Faith

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 3, 2022 46:15

Authors and educators, Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer talk to Amy Fritz about what they learned from publishing A Church Called Tov. A Church Called Tov- https://amzn.to/3OWtYS7 The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb- https://amzn.to/3QxyfwD Scot McKnight Substack Apology- https://scotmcknight.substack.com/p/an-apology Leave a review: https://podcasts.app.com/us/podcast/untangled-faith/id1561001170 Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/untangledfaith Where you can find me https://untangledfaithpodcast.com https://instagram.com/untangledfaith https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz https://twitter.com/faithuntangled https://twitter.com/amyfritz https://facebook.com/untangledfaith This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling here: https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled Host/Creator: Amy Fritz Producer: Michelle Pjanic

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Scot McKnight: How to be ‘TOV' Not Toxic

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Play Episode Listen Later Jul 27, 2022 49:38

Guest Bios Show Transcript Narcissism, power through fear, and false narratives. These are some of the qualities of toxic churches. But what about truly good—or, in the Hebrew, “tov”—churches? What do these churches look like? And how do you become one? In this session from the recent Restore Conference, world-renowned New Testament scholar Scot McKnight unpacks what it means for a Christian community to be truly good.

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Standing with Hagar: Interview with Angela Lam (Ep 56)

Resist and Restore

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 12, 2022 78:26

*Content warning*: this episode deals with clergy sexual abuse in religious institutions. If this topic is sensitive for you, feel free to skip the interview portion of the episode. If you're a survivor of clergy abuse, Hagar's Voice is here for you. Don't hesitate to reach out, it would be our honor to bear witness to your story. Email contact.hagarsvoice@gmail.com. Interview with pastor, friend, and volunteer at Hagar's Voice, Angela Lam. Angela shares about Hagar's Voice - an organization that supports women and other people who are victims of clergy sexual abuse - and how it came to be. She talks her own story of abuse, talks about how patterns in the greater Church lead to abuse, what we can do as Christians to prevent it, how to take action when a victim comes forward, and more. It is a conversation that is important for all Christians to hear with very practical steps to apply. Also in this episode, the pastors share some talkback from a Sunday meeting from a first-time visitor. As always, Spiritual Show and Tell to end the episode: MXPX, Ignatian Contemplation: Imaginative Prayer, and camping in the woods. //Notes// -Interview with Angela Lam- Prey Tell by Tiffany Bluhm: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=prey+tell+tiffany+bluhm&sprefix=prey+tell%2Caps%2C85&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_9 A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer: https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=139E6ZH5ZRB0Z&keywords=a+church+called+tov&qid=1656637455&sprefix=a+church+called+tov%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE3N0kxV1pRVk5ZUjYmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAwOTcxNjczS0RIVTZBUUxaQUlCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NTk1MTIyVFdRWDhVVFFWQzJFJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== 7 Steps to Move the Needle of Safety for Women In Your Midst: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VQHwShVfi0ph-0yUF1gXraAk0vxOOvZGAEpT8T1OYEU/edit?usp=sharing - Spiritual Show and Tell - MXPX: https://mxpx.com/ Ignatian Contemplation: Imaginative Prayer: https://www.ignatianspirituality.com/ignatian-prayer/the-spiritual-exercises/ignatian-contemplation-imaginative-prayer/ //About this Podcast// Resist and Restore is a podcast by Circle of Hope. We're extending the table of our dialogue! Tune in bi-weekly as the Circle of Hope pastors—Rachel, Julie, and Jonny—sit down to dialogue about faith, God, Jesus, the spiritual life, and everything in between. Available on Spotify, iTunes/Apple Music, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more. //Contact Us// Website: https://circleofhope.church Email: ResistandRestorePodcast@circleofhope.net IG/TW: @circleofhopenet YouTube: https://youtube.com/circleofhope FB: https://fb.me/CircleofHopePhillyRegion Help keep the show running! Contribute at: https://circleofhope.church/share

Faith Adjacent: Beth Allison Barr

The Bible Binge

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 17, 2022 75:12

In this very special episode, we invite you to listen along to our Faith Adjacent Book Club in which Erin and Evan chat with Beth Allison Barr all about her book The Making of Biblical Womanhood. You'll hear some fascinating history lessons, incredibly helpful answers to listener questions, and tips on how to be a better Bible scholar. Buckle up because we have a TON of resources for you in the notes below! Dr. Barr is a DELIGHT. We did not play it cool, and you don't have to either. MENTIONSBeth Allison Barr: Instagram | Twitter | Website | The Making of Biblical WomanhoodExtra Resources from Dr. Barr: How to do Reliable Research | It's a Small, Small (Complementarian) World | Reimagining a History Ph.D.–Doing Academia outside of AcademiaScholars to check out: Naomi Tadmor | Emily Hunter McGowin | Lucy PeppiattMore info on Bible translation: A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar Podcast | Dr. Barr's Blog PostOne of Dr. Barr's Favorites: Goddess, Whores, Wives, and Slaves by Sarah PomeroyBuild out your library: A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight | Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez | The Color of Compromise by Jemar Tisby | White Evangelical Racism by Anthea Butler | Beyond Authority and Submission by Rachel Green MillerSecret Text Thread: Listen to our past Faith Adjacent Book Club with Kristin Kobes Du Mez The Bible Binge Loves Women: Listen to Favored or Forsaken: Women in Authority History Lesson: Women's Mission UnionMore on Martha: Listen to Season 2, Episode 6: Mary and MarthaArticles to check out: Beware False Teachers with Good Doctrine and Bad Ethics | A Supreme Court Win for Gay Rights, but Not in My Church by Jeff ChuHistory Deep-Dives: Catherine of Siena | The Golden Legend | Women in Early Medieval Europe, 400–1100 by Lisa Bitel | The Murder of RegillaThe Bible Binge Survey: Give us ALL your feedback here! BONUS CONTENTThis week over at The Bible Binge Seminary in our Mini-Favored or Forsaken episode, Erin and Terrance give an SBC Update, talk about Justin Bieber's face paralysis, and explore the call of creation. You can listen to this conversation and more at The Bible Binge Seminary. THE POPCASTCheck out our other podcast: The Popcast with Knox and Jamie. It's a weekly show about pop culture where we educate on the things that entertain, but don't matter. Here is our suggested Popcast starter playlist.Subscribe to our Newsletter: The Bible Binge Bulletin Shop our Amazon Link: amazon.com/shop/thepopcastFollow The Bible Binge on Socials: Instagram | Twitter | FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

What is the Church? Part 3: An Interview with Author Brian McLaren, Do I Stay Christian?

Celebrate Story!

Play Episode Listen Later May 23, 2022 64:14

This week, Julie concludes her 3 Part series, 'What is the Church?', with an interview of Brian McLaren( https://www.celebratestorypod.com/guests/brian-mclaren/). Brian is the author of more than 15 books, including Faith After Doubt, Do I Stay Christian?, and A New Kind of Christian, he is a faculty member of The Living School at the Center for Action and Contemplation. Please enjoy this great conversation between Julie and Brian!Link to Brian McLaren's new book, 'Do I Stay Christian?'To cap off this series we are running a promotion! Please share your favorite episode from the 'What is the Church?' series to social media and tag Julie (links to her socials can be found at www. celebratestorypod.com) for a chance to win the 3 books from this series (A Church Called TOV, The Other Half of Church and Do I Stay Christian?). You can also share to your friends directly by text or email ... just send a screenshot to celebratestorypod@gmail.com.

How Do You Know You're In a Toxic Church?

Christian Curious

Play Episode Listen Later May 10, 2022 27:26

Dr. Halee Gray Scott is joined by Laura McKnight Barringer, a curriculum creator that has authored many pieces of work including "A Church Called Tov"Today Dr. Halee will be discussing the factors that can help you identify if you are in a toxic church. Join Dr. Halee as she dissect the identifiers to help you navigate this topic; factors including narcissistic culture, institution creed, fear, and false narrative in pursuit to protect the church's reputation.You can get Laura's book or get in touch with her in the links below! A Church Called Tov: https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes-ebook/dp/B085FZMTT6/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1V8538OAUHI3E&keywords=a+church+called+tov&qid=1652124100&s=digital-text&sprefix=a+church+called+tov%2Cdigital-text%2C103&sr=1-1 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauraebarringer/?hl=en

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Laura Barringer on Clergy Abuse and "A Church Called Tov"

Inverse Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 5, 2022 64:00

Laura Barringer is an outspoken advocate for the wounded resisters of institutional abuse. Laura is co-author of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Laura is a curriculum writer for Grow Kids, a ministry of Stuff You Can Use. She previously co-authored the children's version of The Jesus Creed and wrote a teacher's guide to accompany the book. She published articles for The Jesus Creed and The Englewood Review of Books, and her writing has been featured in Church Leaders, The Roys Report, and Converge Summit. Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College.

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What is the Church? Part 1: An Interview with Author Laura Barringer, A Church Called Tov

Celebrate Story!

Play Episode Play 25 sec Highlight Listen Later Apr 25, 2022 61:39

Recent news is littered with stories of Christian churches acting badly. Laura Barringer and her father Scot McKnight had a front row seat to one of these stories at Willow Creek Community Church outside of Chicago, IL. They have theorized in their book, A Church Called Tov, that there might be a better way to do church. We hope you enjoy listening to this interesting and enlightening conversation between Julie and Laura.Laura Barringer's BioA Church Called Tov ordering link

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S3/E6: Part 2 - When Church ‘Hurt' is Actually Abuse w/ Ayanna Mathis

Yas and Amen Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 23, 2022 51:05

For this incredibly important episode - we got to talk with Ayanna Mathis about the realities of abuse within the Body of Christ. We talk through the terms 'hurt', 'abuse', and 'trauma', and why terms matter when it comes to the identification of abuse and the recovery process. We share our own experiences and what God says about it in the Bible. We touched on Exodus, Joshua 7:16-26, Joshua 20, Jude 1, 2 Peter 2, and 1 & 2 Timothy. As women in the mental health and psychology field, we talk about the mental health components to all of this and what as a body we can be doing better when it comes to this issue within our churches and communities. Part 1 of This Episode is HERE: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s2-e12-the-4-ws-of-church-hurt-and-abuse/id1524089544?i=1000517066260 Connect w/ ayanna - instagram.com/ayannazmathis Learn more about the upcoming course: "Healing From the Body" featuring speakers/teachers Ayanna Mathis, Laura Barringer (Co-Author of A Church Called Tov),and Kristen LaValley HERE - https://www.thefullgarden.com/ Connect with us: -Follow host - Pricelis: instagram.com/pricelispd -Follow our community: instagram.com/we.are.full -Join our email list: wearefullcollective.com/email-sign-up -Check out our website: wearefullcollective.com -Check out our Yas and Amen Blog Here: https://www.pricelispd.com/blog

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Episode 212 - Laura Barringer, "A Church Called TOV"

Restoring the Soul with Michael John Cusick

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 25, 2022 45:28

“Only one side could be telling the truth and it's really disturbing either way.” - Laura BarringerOn this episode of Restoring the Soul, Michael welcomes Laura Barringer to the podcast. Over the past decade, we have seen incredible examples of toxic church culture that has upended congregations and has left thousands of church staff and congregants confused and shaken. In 2020 Laura co-authored a book with her father titled “A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.” Together, they dedicated the book to “the wounded resisters” which provides a framework to create a “good” church culture rather than a toxic one in order to prevent further abuse. As you'll hear in her interview with Michael, Laura has firsthand experience of toxic church culture.Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College and makes her home in the Chicago suburbs with her husband and three beagles. HELPFUL RESOURCES:A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes HealingRiverside.fm

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Toxic Church Cultures and How to Fix Them (with Scot McKnight)

Think Biblically: Conversations on Faith & Culture

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 11, 2022 37:45 Transcription Available

In his new book, written with his daughter, NT scholar Scot McKnight takes on the subject of toxic church cultures-how to diagnose them and how to fix them. Their book, A Church Called Tov, outlines how to create and maintain church cultures characterized by goodness (tov) and organizational health. Join Scott and Sean as they unpack this important area for churchgoers, pastors and church leaders. [Show notes, including a full transcript, are available at www.biola.edu/thinkbiblically]

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Scot McKnight / A Church Called TOV

Rethinking God with Tacos Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 14, 2022 54:38

Co-Author of A Church Called TOV, Scot McKnight talks about his new book written in response to the abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse within the leadership of Willow Creek, Harvest, and sadly churches of all shapes and sizes. We talked about TOV (which means goodness) and how when we practice empathy, compassion, extending grace, putting people first, telling the truth, promoting justice, and serving others, TOV emerges in the culture and we all become more Christlike. QUOTES They (those who were abused) needed people in the establishment to stand up for them in order to move that story forward at the pace it should have been and they (church leaders) didn't." “The flipside of the power through fear culture is grace.” "The opposite of a narcissist, who has utterly no insight into his own character and who is totally self-satisfied, is empathy, the capacity to empathize with others." “Many of the victims of pastors are afraid to come forward because of what it will do the church; but also because of the blowback that comes at the systemic level from an institution which, is very powerful. So you put people first, rather than institution." “Lived theology is more potent than written theology. So, if you hung out with Mr. Rodgers for fifteen years and worked with him, you would have experienced the divine reality more than if you had attended sermons on those fifteen years of Sundays." To learn more or to support this podcast go to www.afamilystory.org Please rate, review, share, and subscribe!

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Best of 2021: Dr. Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer on A Church Called TOV: Forming a Goodness Culture that Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 10, 2022 70:20

This episode is coming to you for such a time as this. With spiritual abuse, abuse of power, and sexual abuse becoming such common news in our time, we have to admit that there are many churches with cultures and systems that are unhealthy and even harmful. If you are a pastor, a church leader, a congregant or just want to be a part of making a difference in a way that helps others flourish, listen in closely to the research and the harsh reality of what is happening on our watch. There is hope of how to do better, and how to be a part of creating goodness cultures together. Our guests today are a father and daughter co-author duo who walked through a painful reality at Willow Creek church in Chicago, and that experience led them to want to help others. Dr. Scot McKnight is a world-renowned speaker, writer, professor and equipper of the Church. He is a recognized authority on the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and the New Testament. His blog, https://www.christianitytoday.com/scot-mcknight/about/about.html (Jesus Creed), is a leading Christian blog. Dr. McKnight's books include https://www.amazon.com/dp/1612615783/?tag=christtoday-20 (The Jesus Creed), https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IOZUDA/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i2 (The King Jesus Gospel), https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077CXZ2CD/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1 (The Blue Parakeet,) https://www.amazon.com/Real-Mary-Scot-McKnight-December/dp/B01B98EXKO/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1614661767&sr=1-1 (The Real Mary), and Junia is Not Alone. A sought after speaker, he has been interviewed on several radio and television programs as well as spoken at numerous local churches, conferences, colleges, and seminaries in the United States and around the world. Scot McKnight is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature and the Society for New Testament Studies. McKnight's books have been translated into Chinese, Korean, Russian, and Portuguese. You can find him, along with the other 50.5K followers https://twitter.com/scotmcknight (on twitter) at: @scotmcknight Laura Barringer is a teacher of primary-grade students. She is the co-author of https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1612615813?pf_rd_r=DZW1HYYHWSW3JGZYY2G0&pf_rd_p=5ae2c7f8-e0c6-4f35-9071-dc3240e894a8&pd_rd_r=b5e704d7-9bd1-42ff-82e9-c2f855593e81&pd_rd_w=eqJhv&pd_rd_wg=NgWHs&ref_=pd_gw_unk (Sharing God's Love: The Jesus Creed for Children) and wrote a teacher lesson and activity guide to accompany the book. She is also co-author of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College (IL) and currently resides in the Chicago suburbs with her husband, Mark, and three beagles. You can find her https://twitter.com/laurambarringer (on twitter) at: @laurambarringer Buy their book and highlight it as many times as I did, because https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+church+called+tov&crid=2JGX5MN2SCBXC&sprefix=a+church+cal%2Caps%2C226&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_12 (A Church Called TOV: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing), will likely be, outside of the Bible, the most important book you read this year. Let's be TOV and create TOV systems and TOV churches together so we can all flourish. The A World of Difference Podcast is brought to you in partnership with https://www.missioalliance.org/ (Missio Alliance). Stay In Touch: Connect on Facebook and Instagram with thoughts, questions, and feedback. Rate, review and share this podcast with anyone that would love to listen. Find Us Online: https://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference/ (@aworldof.difference) on Instagram and https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/ (A World of Difference) on Facebook, on Twitter at https://twitter.com/loriadbr (@loriadbr) & on...

Best of 2021: Dr. Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer on A Church Called TOV: Forming a Goodness Culture that Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing

You Start Today with Dr. Lee Warren | Weekly Prescriptions to Become Healthier, Feel Better, and Be Happier.

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 10, 2022 70:20

This episode is coming to you for such a time as this. With spiritual abuse, abuse of power, and sexual abuse becoming such common news in our time, we have to admit that there are many churches with cultures and systems that are unhealthy and even harmful. If you are a pastor, a church leader, a congregant or just want to be a part of making a difference in a way that helps others flourish, listen in closely to the research and the harsh reality of what is happening on our watch. There is hope of how to do better, and how to be a part of creating goodness cultures together. Our guests today are a father and daughter co-author duo who walked through a painful reality at Willow Creek church in Chicago, and that experience led them to want to help others. Dr. Scot McKnight is a world-renowned speaker, writer, professor and equipper of the Church. He is a recognized authority on the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and the New Testament. His blog, https://www.christianitytoday.com/scot-mcknight/about/about.html (Jesus Creed), is a leading Christian blog. Dr. McKnight's books include https://www.amazon.com/dp/1612615783/?tag=christtoday-20 (The Jesus Creed), https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IOZUDA/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i2 (The King Jesus Gospel), https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077CXZ2CD/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i1 (The Blue Parakeet,) https://www.amazon.com/Real-Mary-Scot-McKnight-December/dp/B01B98EXKO/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1614661767&sr=1-1 (The Real Mary), and Junia is Not Alone. A sought after speaker, he has been interviewed on several radio and television programs as well as spoken at numerous local churches, conferences, colleges, and seminaries in the United States and around the world. Scot McKnight is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature and the Society for New Testament Studies. McKnight's books have been translated into Chinese, Korean, Russian, and Portuguese. You can find him, along with the other 50.5K followers https://twitter.com/scotmcknight (on twitter) at: @scotmcknight Laura Barringer is a teacher of primary-grade students. She is the co-author of https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1612615813?pf_rd_r=DZW1HYYHWSW3JGZYY2G0&pf_rd_p=5ae2c7f8-e0c6-4f35-9071-dc3240e894a8&pd_rd_r=b5e704d7-9bd1-42ff-82e9-c2f855593e81&pd_rd_w=eqJhv&pd_rd_wg=NgWHs&ref_=pd_gw_unk (Sharing God's Love: The Jesus Creed for Children) and wrote a teacher lesson and activity guide to accompany the book. She is also co-author of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College (IL) and currently resides in the Chicago suburbs with her husband, Mark, and three beagles. You can find her https://twitter.com/laurambarringer (on twitter) at: @laurambarringer Buy their book and highlight it as many times as I did, because https://www.amazon.com/s?k=a+church+called+tov&crid=2JGX5MN2SCBXC&sprefix=a+church+cal%2Caps%2C226&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_12 (A Church Called TOV: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing), will likely be, outside of the Bible, the most important book you read this year. Let's be TOV and create TOV systems and TOV churches together so we can all flourish. The A World of Difference Podcast is brought to you in partnership with https://www.missioalliance.org/ (Missio Alliance). Stay In Touch: Connect on Facebook and Instagram with thoughts, questions, and feedback. Rate, review and share this podcast with anyone that would love to listen. Find Us Online: https://www.instagram.com/aworldof.difference/ (@aworldof.difference) on Instagram and https://www.facebook.com/A-World-of-Difference-613933132591673/ (A World of Difference) on Facebook, on Twitter at https://twitter.com/loriadbr (@loriadbr) & on...

Episode 489: The Evangelical Empire Strikes Back & Barna Briefs with David Kinnaman

The Holy Post

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 29, 2021 88:28

After the mess that was 2020, we had such high hopes for 2021. Were our expectations met? Phil and Skye look back on the year when the evangelical empire dug in its heels. Those opposed to #MeToo and Black Lives Matter responded by labeling empathy a sin. Voices advocating for women and people of color within the SBC left the denomination. The Salvation Army reversed course on racial sensitivity, and female scholars faced a backlash for exposing Christian nationalism and patriarchy. Will 2022 be any different, or will the sorting of the entire culture into Red and Blue tribes continue? And how wide will the rift between classical and cultural evangelicals get? Then, the president of Barna Group, David Kinnaman, joins Skye to launch a new reoccurring segment—Barna Briefs. Kinnaman reveals brand new data about the state of the church and how the pandemic has revealed wide discontent among churchgoers with their congregations. He also says popular church structures are clearly insufficient for forming mature disciples and new church models are desperately needed. Kinnaman also reveals an alarming number of pastors are ready to leave ministry. Is there a silver lining to all of the troubling data? News Segment: 0:00 - Intro 4:34 - Looking back and looking ahead https://www.holypost.com/post/438-the-year-that-unveiled-evangelicalism-with-john-fea 9:10 - Stories from 2021: The “sin of empathy” conversation Holy Post episode 472 - https://youtu.be/D_NHhmdss5w?t=2000 12:28 - Was 2021 “The Empire Strikes Back”? 15:47 - Russell Moore and the ERLC Painting Phil references - https://www.metrotimes.com/the-scene/archives/2021/12/12/detroit-artist-jonathan-harris-strikes-a-nerve-around-the-world-with-critical-race-theory-painting26:02 - Salvation Army and “wokeness” 32:18 - Books from this year “Jesus and John Wayne” by Kristin Kobes Du Mez - https://amzn.to/3mHdVMx “The Making of Biblical Womanhood” by Beth Allison Barr - https://amzn.to/3ECopmL 42:01 - The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/podcasts/rise-and-fall-of-mars-hill/ “Church Refugees” by Josh Packard - https://amzn.to/3pzky5m “A Church Called Tov ” by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer - https://amzn.to/3z4DJr7 53:06 - Looking toward 2022 Movie Phil references - “Don't Look Up” (2021) Barna Brief with David Kinnaman: Free download for Holy Post listeners: https://www.barna.com/holypost/ 1:02:37 - Interview Start 1:04:12 - Project intro: State of the Church https://www.barna.com/stateofthechurch/ 1:05:31 - Digital church and effects of the pandemic 1:17:06 - Growing crisis among pastors 1:22:53 - Mental and emotional impact of pandemic The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.

Top 5 Books 0f 2021 #3: A Church Called Tov (S3E80)

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 28, 2021 79:16

My #3 Book of 2021 is A Church Called Tov by Laura Barringer and Scot McKnight! From the Very First Chapter, the Bible Teaches Us That God is Good The original language of the Bible, Hebrew, uses the word tov, which means "good." Join Lisa and me for a fascinating and important conversation with Laura Barringer and Scot McKnight, authors of the incredible book, A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing Here's the book's website, where you can learn all about Laura and Scot. Music by Travis Ryan

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WKC Midweek Podcast: Growing Goodness [6] A Culture Of Service And Christlikeness

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 24, 2021 47:19

Welcome to Westside Kings Church Have other questions you want addressed in the podcast? You can email your question at podcast@wkc.org Christine and Phil finish up the discussion on Scot Mcknight and Laura Barringer's book "A Church Called TOV." This week they speak on developing a culture of service and Christlikeness. Questions about who we are and how to get connected? Head to wkc.org or email us at info@wkc.org Follow WKC on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/westsideyyc

WKC Midweek Podcast: Growing Goodness [5] Committing To Justice

head goodness committing scot mcknight laura barringer church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 17, 2021 52:13

Welcome to Westside Kings Church Have other questions you want addressed in the podcast? You can email your question at podcast@wkc.org Christin and Tyson continue discussing Scot Mcknight and Laura Barringer's book "A Church Called TOV." This week they speak on justice. Questions about who we are and how to get connected? Head to wkc.org or email us at info@wkc.org Follow WKC on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/westsideyyc

Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer on forming a goodness culture in A Church Called Tov

Tent Theology

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 16, 2021 51:03

New Testament scholar Scot McKnight and his daughter Laura Barringer join the Tent to discuss their book A Church Called Tov. Though it initially focuses on toxic church environments, abusive church leaders, and the people who enable them, the book is primarily a call for our communities to be transformed into families devoted to goodness as we seek—to use McKnight's word—Christoformity together. There is no quick fix to developing a "goodness culture" as Barringer and McKnight recommend. Instead, they offer an invitation to a conversation—many conversations—between church leaders and every Christ follower about how we can begin to make those "one inch a week" changes to our personal relationships and overall leadership cultures.You can find out more about A Church Called Tov, including group study guides and numerous other resources at their website. Scot McKnight's newsletter can be found here, his Jesus Creed blog can be found here, and you can find a way to go study with him at Northern seminary by looking into their website. Has anything we make been interesting, useful or fruitful for you? You can support us by becoming a Fellow Traveller on our Patreon page HERE.

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WKC Midweek Podcast: Growing Goodness [4] Nurturing Truth

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2021 61:57

Welcome to Westside Kings Church Have other questions you want addressed in the podcast? You can email your question at podcast@wkc.org David and Tyson continue discussing Scot Mcknight and Laura Barringer's book "A Church Called TOV." This week David and Tyson speak on what a truth telling culture looks like in a Church and how to resist false narratives. Questions about who we are and how to get connected? Head to wkc.org or email us at info@wkc.org Follow WKC on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/westsideyyc

Derek Turner - A Church Called Tov - Part 5

jesus christ church christians church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2021 37:34

IN A TOV CHURCH CULTURE, justice—doing the right thing—is a leading theme. In toxic church culture, loyalty to the leader or brand often takes precedence. At times, the difference between justice and loyalty is subtle, but when they are at odds with one another, those differences become massive. Sadly, in many churches today, Christians are asked to choose between loyalty and justice. Jesus has a better way! “Follow me,” is his invitation to impart his justice so we can represent his will to others. This creates a loving loyalty to serve people the way Jesus has served us.

Derek Turner - A Church Called Tov - Part 6

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2021 33:44

IN THE CIRCLE OF TOV, when we practice the habits of empathy and compassion, extending grace, putting people first, telling the truth, promoting justice, and serving others, TOV emerges in the culture and we all become more like Christ. Goodness (TOV) becomes an agent that influences every aspect of our lives. And the more we practice TOV, the more the culture becomes TOV. But when churches become businesses, corporations, or institutions, pastors cease to be pastors, churches cease to be churches, and the culture in the church becomes toxic, not TOV. Of course, Jesus has and is the answer to this problem! He wants followers, not leaders, who will commit to becoming Christlike and replace the achievement and accomplishment culture with one of healing, wholeness, and love. TOV sometimes means beautiful—it's used many times in the first chapter of Genesis for what God thought of his creation. TOV means ‘excellent' and sometimes means ‘God's TOV design.' When it summarizes a person's life, TOV means a flourishing, faithful moral character. God is TOV. God's design is always TOV. God's redeemed people are to do TOV.”

WKC Midweek Podcast: Growing Goodness [3] Nurturing Grace

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Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2021 61:13

Welcome to Westside Kings Church Have other questions you want addressed in the podcast? You can email your question at podcast@wkc.org David and Tyson continue discussing Scot Mcknight and Laura Barringer's book "A Church Called TOV." This week the discussion is on what a culture of grace looks like and how we as a church can nurture grace in our community. Questions about who we are and how to get connected? Head to wkc.org or email us at info@wkc.org Follow WKC on instagram: https://www.instagram.com/westsideyyc

WKC Midweek Podcast: Growing Goodness [2] People First

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Play Episode Listen Later Oct 28, 2021 50:41

Welcome to Westside Kings Church Have other questions you want addressed in the podcast? You can email your question at podcast@wkc.org David and Christin have a discussion on Scot Mcknight and Laura Barringer's book "A Church Called TOV." They ask the question on how do we as a Church seek to have people first above programs. Questions about who we are and how to get connected? Head to wkc.org or email us at info@wkc.org

Episode 120: A Church Called Tov (Pt. 2)

Essential Church Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 22:38

In this episode we pick up our conversation with Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer to discuss their book A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.

Derek Turner - A Church Called Tov - Part 4

jesus christ church developing tov pastor derek church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2021 43:01

Developing a TOV culture involves putting people first and telling the truth. Jesus was always aware of the people around him and what they needed. He could sit for a meal with the most broken of people just as easily as he could speak truth to power. In fact, by delivering truth bombs he lit up the darkness of religious institutions and offered freedom to those who were trapped in fear. Today, the Church is called to do the same. This Sunday, Pastor Derek draws from the acclaimed book, “A Church Called TOV” to call us up and give us a map for being a people-first, truth-telling church that Jesus would love to attend.

Derek Turner - A Church Called Tov - Part 2

jesus christ church christians tragically pastor derek church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2021 33:12

Tragically, in recent years, Christians have become accustomed to revelations of abuse in our churches. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. These abuses can occur when we neglect to create a culture of goodness that resists evil and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth. This Sunday, Pastor Derek draws from the acclaimed book, “A Church Called TOV” to call us up and give us a map for being a church that Jesus would attend.

Derek Turner - A Church Called Tov - Part 3

jesus christ church christians tragically pastor derek church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2021 30:23

Tragically, in recent years, Christians have become accustomed to revelations of abuse in our churches. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. These abuses can occur when we neglect to create a culture of goodness that resists evil and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth. This Sunday, Pastor Derek draws from the acclaimed book, “A Church Called TOV” to call us up and give us a map for being a church that Jesus would attend.

Episode 119: A Church Called Tov (Pt. 1)

Essential Church Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 20, 2021 24:54

In this episode we sit down with Dr. Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer to discuss their book A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. This is a two part episode.

WKC Midweek Podcast: Growing Goodness [1] Empathy vs Narcissism

empathy goodness narcissism church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 13, 2021 59:56

Welcome to Westside Kings Church Have other questions you would addressed in the podcast? You can email your question at podcast@wkc.org. David and Tyson kick off our new series working along side Scot McKnights book, "A Church Called TOV." They begin the conversation by discussing how culture is created and nurturing an empathy culture over narcissism.

”A Church Called Tov” & the work of an educator with Laura Barringer

Digical Education

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 11, 2021 30:40

This summer I had the opportunity to read "A Church Called Tov" that challenges us to rethink leadership, power, and the creation of culture in churches. What I didn't realize at the time was that a college classmate and fellow educator, Laura Barringer, was the coauthor. Therefore, in this conversation I wanted to delve into a conversation with Laura about where this book came from, what she learned, and how it might impact our work in our classrooms and schools. I liked how she encouraged us that we should be a "people of goodness." Check out the book here: https://www.tyndale.com/p/a-church-called-tov/9781496446008

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Derek Turner - A Church Called Tov

jesus christ church christians tragically pastor derek church called tov

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 9, 2021 29:09

Tragically, in recent years, Christians have become accustomed to revelations of abuse in our churches. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. These abuses can occur when we neglect to create a culture of goodness that resists evil and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth. This Sunday, Pastor Derek draws from the acclaimed book, “A Church Called TOV” to call us up and give us a map for being a church that Jesus would attend.

Jesus: Victim or Victor #4

TheoLIVE

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 5, 2021 50:23

Was Jesus a victim or victor at the cross and does it even matter? We'll be looking at a few comments made at a recent G3 Conference, an Alastair Begg sermon, and reviewing A Church Called Tov. Hope you can join me! You can reach out to me on Twitter @Deanlentini or Instagram @GrumpyBaptist. Soli Deo Gloria!

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#30 Part 2 of A Church Called Tov with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Hanging Onto Hope Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 20, 2021 25:19

Brenda J and Karen Wonder interview Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, Authors of A Church Called Tov, Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. They discuss how their compassion for the Willow Creek and Harvest church abuse victims led them to write the book about a goodness/Tov culture to promote healing. A powerful must listen podcast to inspire a goodness culture in your church and everywhere you go. churchcalledtov.org https://hangingontohope.org

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#29 Part 1 of A Church Called Tov with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Hanging Onto Hope Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 13, 2021 28:16

Brenda J and Karen Wonder interview Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer, Authors of A Church Called Tov, Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. They discuss how their compassion for the Willow Creek and Harvest church abuse victims led them to write the book about a goodness/Tov culture to promote healing. A powerful must listen podcast to inspire a goodness culture in your church and everywhere you go. churchcalledtov.org https://hangingontohope.org

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25: Book Club: "A Church Called TOV" by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Following the Fire

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 11, 2021 57:18

Today we have with us Laura Barringer, co-author of “A Church Called Tov”. We had a fabulous conversation with her and learned so much. If you haven't read the book yet, don't worry - Nathan gives a great summary before we get in to the discussion. Do be sure to grab a copy for yourself, though! Links are in the show notes. Book: “A Church Called Tov” by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer (https://amzn.to/3hFW4U8) Nathan sums up the book Laura introduces herself Willow Creek Church (https://www.willowcreek.org) Article: "After years of inquiries, Willow Creek pastor denies misconduct allegations" (https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-willow-creek-pastor-20171220-story.html) Scot McKnight (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scot_McKnight) Yom Kippur (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur) Beatitudes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatitudes) Book: “The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth” by Beth Allison Barr (https://amzn.to/3ioD10S) Book: “Extraordinary Women of Christian History: What We Can Learn from Their Struggles and Triumphs” (https://amzn.to/3s1JVfR) MMPI Diagnostic Test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Multiphasic_Personality_Inventory) Narcissistic Personality Disorder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder) Book: “When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community From Emotional and Spiritual Abuse” by Chuck DeGroat (https://amzn.to/3Cg4sSG) Mr. Rogers (https://www.misterrogers.org/) Join our Patreon (http://patreon.com/followingthefire) - we'd love your support and we have some fantastic patron perks! Special Guest: Laura Barringer.

Trailer for A Church Called Tov with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Hanging Onto Hope Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 9, 2021 1:30

Sneak peak into episodes 29 and 30, A Church called Tov with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

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S2E57 Beach Talk #44 Hillbilly Elegy and a Church Called Tov

The Beached White Male Podcast with Ken Kemp

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 29, 2021 43:40

The House Committee begins the hearings on the January 6 Insurrection. Former Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo brings the Sunday morning anti-vaxxer, anti-CRT message dismissing the January 6 inquiry as a "witch-hunt" to a California mega-church. They talk about how conservatives spin the hearings, telling people not to watch, diminishing the impact of the inquiry. J.D. Vance, the author of Hillbilly Elegy, is running for the Senate on pro-Trump, voter-suppression platform. Scot McKnight's book, a Church Called Tov. Carla, an Elder in her church, shared his ideas about toxic leadership and avoidance of the truth. Virtual church and rock-star pastors can pre-empt what church ought to be. Support the show (http://thebeachedwhitemale.com)

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23: NakedPastor: Artist David Hayward discusses his cartoons & his faith journey

Following the Fire

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 28, 2021 63:10

Nathan and Steve got to sit down with David Hayward, aka, “NakedPastor” for a fabulous conversation. David is an author, artist, cartoonist, and all-around super nice guy (not just because he's Canadian). We got to hear of his journey from being a pastor for 30 years to being the cartoonist for deconstructing Christians, we talked about his motivations for doing what he does, and much more! Following the Fire book club book: "A Church Called Tov" by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer (https://amzn.to/3BM4HEF) NakedPastor.com (https://nakedpastor.com) The Far Side (https://www.thefarside.com) “Images of Jesus” series (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/images-of-christ-prints) “Sophia” series (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/sophia-prints) Cartoon: “Two Views of God” (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/prints/products/two-views-cartoon-poster) Cartoon: “I believe I'm right” (https://nakedpastor.com/products/i-believe-im-right-cartoon) Jesus eating with the sinners Mark 2:13-17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202%3A13-17&version=NIV) Book: “The Art of Coming Out” (https://amzn.to/2WnTA4J) Cartoon: “Love Versus the Bible” (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/prints/products/love-versus-the-bible-cartoon-print) Author: Eugene Peterson (https://amzn.to/2UKZxs6) Cartoon: “Nothing in Common” (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/prints/products/nothing-in-common-cartoon-print) Book: “Questions Are the Answer” (https://amzn.to/3kZj5U4) Book: “A Cloud of Unknowing” (https://amzn.to/3iUteyZ) First “Sophia” drawing: “Fearless” (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/sophia-prints/products/sophia-fearless-print-poster) Book: “The Liberation of Sophia” (https://amzn.to/2UWJyXJ) Sophia drawing: “Cave” (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/sophia-prints/products/sophia-cave-drawing-print-poster) Sophia drawing: “Light” (https://nakedpastor.com/collections/sophia-prints/products/sophia-light-drawing-print-poster) “My burden is light…” Matthew 11:28-30 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2011%3A28-30&version=NIV) Book: “Till Doubt Do Us Part” (https://amzn.to/2WsOUe1) Join our Patreon (http://patreon.com/followingthefire) - we'd love your support and we have some fantastic patron perks! Special Guest: David Hayward.

A Church Called Tov: w/ Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer

The determinetruth's Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 27, 2021 56:15

Rob & Vinnie chat with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their amazing book, A Church Called Tov Here is the link to Rob's blog and the Determinetruth website Please "follow" this podcast and share it with others so that we can get the word of the Gospel of the Kingdom to more people! If you have been blessed by this podcast and would like to see others benefit too, would you please consider giving a tax-deductible (one-time or recurring) contribution to support determinetruth ministries and make possible future posts like this? You can do so by following this link Follow this link to download the app; then add “Determinetruth” as the church name in order to have even easier access to the Blog posts, podcasts, and more of Determinetruth If you would like to have Rob and Vinnie speak at your church or organization in person or via zoom, please let us know by filling out the contact info on the Contact me tab on the determinetruth website You may also submit questions/topics for future podcast episodes by filling out the Contact me tab at determinetruth.com

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Resist Toxic Church Culture with a Church Called Tov - with Scot McKnight

Re-integrate

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 19, 2021 30:59

Too many of us have experienced abuse of power from pastors in our churches. This happens in churches that have allowed for a culture of toxicity. To resist toxicity, we need to restore goodness in our churches. The Hebrew word translated “good” is tov. Scot McKnight and his daughter Laura Barringer have written A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing (Tyndale, 2020). In this episode, we interview Scot McKnight. Dr. McKnight is Professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary in Lisle, IL. He is a New Testament scholar, historian of early Christianity, and theologian. He has a very popular blog called "Jesus Creed" that is housed at ChristianityToday.com. Thanks for listening! Your hosts are Brendan Romigh and Dr. Bob Robinson, the Executive Director of Reintegrate. Go to re-integrate.org for the latest articles on reintegrating your callings with God's mission and online resources for further learning. There is a Bible study book that you can use in your small group or individual devotions: Reintegrate Your Vocation with God's Mission by Bob Robinson. On Reintegrate's podcast page, you'll find more episodes and ways to email us to comment on this podcast. To get your copy of A Church Called Tov, contact Byron and Beth Borger at Hearts and Minds Bookstore. You can order online through their secure server or call 717-246-333. Mention that you heard about it on the Reintegrate Podcast and get 20% off!

Episode 174: Tov vs. Toxicity in the Church with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

Hole in My Heart Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 21, 2021 47:00

When we look at churches and ministries today, we often don’t see Jesus. Instead, we see scandal. Abuse. Toxicity. What do we do with this? How do we change and prevent it? Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer have an answer: tov. Tov is the Hebrew word for “good,” and it’s who God is and who He calls us to be. As Scot says it, tov is “the redemptive dimension of churches that can prevent them from toxicity.” We need more of this. Let’s listen in. I Highlights I “This [book] was really a work of faith for me, realizing that God is in the wounded. That He’s with the wounded, He’s with the resisters. And I’ve found that, sadly, churches silencing victims was so discouraging and so disorienting. But what I found through the journey was that, that is not God, that God is truth and that God, like I said, is with the wounded.” -Laura Barringer “The gospel is about the goodness of God—God is tov—because He is Himself tov, and therefore, we get incorporated into that kind of gospel and it just fills us with tov and goodness! And we want to be that kind of person in the world, because that’s the way Jesus was.” -Scot McKnight “Who are we talking about when we leave the church? Are we talking about God? Are we talking about Jesus? Are we talking about the Spirit? Are we talking about the fellowship of the saints and the worship? Or are we talking about how great the pastor was [and] how great the church was?…When that’s the commentary in the car on the way home, we’re on the verge of trouble.” -Scot McKnight I Do the Next Thing I Check out Scot and Laura’s book, A Church Called Tov, here. https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003 Here’s Scot’s blog! https://www.christianitytoday.com/scot-mcknight/ Looking for someone to be in the trenches with you? Laurie’s super down! Check it out here. https://lauriekrieg.com/product/one-coaching-session-with-laurie/ Also, guys! We are looking for partners in our ministry! If you’re interested, join us over here: https://lauriekrieg.com/partner/ For updates on our ministry, check out Laurie’s Instagram. https://www.instagram.com/laurie_krieg/?hl=en

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A Church Called Tov - With Scot McKnight

Theology Doesn't Suck!

Play Episode Listen Later May 19, 2021 47:48

This week we had the privilege of being joined by bible scholar and theologian, Scot McKnight. McKnight recently released a new book, "A Church Called Tov: Forming A Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing." Tragically, in recent years, Christians have gotten used to revelations of abuses of many kinds in our most respected churches―from Willow Creek to Harvest, from Southern Baptist pastors to Sovereign Grace churches. We need a better way. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. Abuses occur most frequently when Christians neglect to create a culture that resists abuse and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth. McKnight offers us a way forward and helps us to (re)think what a Church called Tov could look like in the future. Enjoy! Resources: A Church Called Tov (book) Scot McKnight Northern Seminary

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Conversation with Scot McKnight

Things Above

Play Episode Listen Later May 12, 2021 51:19

James Bryan Smith has a Things Above Conversation with Dr. Scot McKnight. In this episode James talks with Scot about his latest book “A Church Called Tov” which he co-authored with his daughter Laura Barringer. Scot will be speaking at The Apprentice Gathering 2021, learn more here. Scot McKnight Bio: McKnight, author or editor of […] The post Conversation with Scot McKnight appeared first on Apprentice Institute.

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Episode 455: Is Your Church Toxic or Tov? with Scot McKnight

The Holy Post

Play Episode Listen Later May 5, 2021 87:03

Rene Padilla died last week at 88, and you’re probably thinking “Who’s Rene Padilla?” Phil, Skye, and Christian discuss the huge influence he had on the global church and its mission, and why so many American Christians still feel a divide between saving souls and reforming society. Then, Skye talks to Scot McKnight about his new book, “A Church Called Tov,” which he co-wrote with his daughter Laura Barringer in the aftermath of the Willow Creek controversy and Bill Hybles’ abuse. McKnight defines what makes a church culture toxic, and why so many pastors are on the narcissism disorder spectrum. It’s an eye-opening conversation. Also this week—a Kickstarter campaign for a new Christian dating service, a church in an unexpected location launches “Drag Queen Sunday,” and the terrifying story of a man, a portable toilet, and a tree. https://thegirlwhoworefreedom.com/festivals/ https://apnews.com/article/pennsylvania-gettysburg-69f03d57db0cb1e4b912b59ddce396dd https://www.relevantmagazine.com/culture/tech-gaming/dominion-dating-is-the-christian-dating-site-for-men-who-think-a-womans-place-is-at-home-1/ https://religionnews.com/2021/04/15/first-drag-queen-certified-as-a-candidate-for-united-methodist-ministry-speaking-in-a-new-way-to-new-people/ https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2021/april/rene-padilla-died-integral-mission-latin-american-theology.html https://lausanne.org/content/covenant/lausanne-covenant https://www.amazon.com/Christian-Mission-Modern-World-Classics/dp/0830834117

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A Church Called Tov with Ben Williams

So We Speak

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 27, 2021 50:46

What makes a healthy church culture? In this episode, we're discussing accusations, abuse, and how to build an environment of truth and grace in the church based on Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer's new book A Church Called Tov.

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Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church with Diane Langberg

Faith School Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 8, 2021 40:39

Diane answers questions like... Why is it difficult for us to face abuse and misuse of power in the church? What is holding us back? How has Christendom been seduced by power? What would you say to someone who has experienced the misuse of power or abuse within the church? Diane Langberg is an internationally recognized psychologist, counsellor, and co-founder of the Global Trauma Recovery Institute at Biblical Theological Seminary. With 47 years of experience, Diane speaks regularly on abuse and trauma all over the world. She directs her own counselling practice in Jenkintown, Pennsylvania. http://eepurl.com/hpJOg9 (E-mail Sign-Up) Resources: https://www.amazon.ca/Redeeming-Power-Understanding-Authority-Church-ebook/dp/B087RTG65G/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Diane+Langberg+Redeeming+Power%3A+Understanding+Authority+and+Abuse+in+the+Church&qid=1615010013&sr=8-1 (Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church) by Diane Langberg https://www.amazon.ca/Somethings-Not-Right-Decoding-Abuse-ebook/dp/B085FPH94C (Something's Not Right) by Wade Mullen https://www.amazon.ca/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=A+Church+Called+Tov%3A+Forming+a+Goodness+Culture+That+Resists+Abuses+of+Power+and+Promotes+Healing&qid=1615010141&sr=8-1 (A Church Called Tov )by Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer https://www.amazon.ca/Playing-God-Hc-Andy-Crouch/dp/0830837655 (Playing God) by Andy Crouch https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/I68Shop?fbclid=IwAR3egQG0mQ2v0k3P7yBjQOQgfq_4d6imJu0s4qTtkFCb_Nk6filTkMuhpb4 (I68Shop: Faith in Motion) Journal https://youtu.be/7iOnkTR7rDE (Faith Fatigue Teaching Video) Connect with Diane: Website: http://dianelangberg.com (dianelangberg.com) Connect with Leah: IG: https://www.instagram.com/leah.rempel/ (@leah.rempel) FB: https://www.facebook.com/groups/4075541105853974 (Intentional Women of Faith) Shop: https://www.redbubble.com/people/leahrempel/shop?asc=u (MERCH), https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/I68Shop?fbclid=IwAR3egQG0mQ2v0k3P7yBjQOQgfq_4d6imJu0s4qTtkFCb_Nk6filTkMuhpb4 (I68Shop)

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Tov or Toxic Church? An Interview with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer

A Pastor and a Philosopher Walk into a Bar

Play Episode Play 59 sec Highlight Listen Later Feb 24, 2021 66:45 Transcription Available

In this episode, we chat with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer about their new book that's making waves called A Church Called Tov. This book is extremely important and is a prophetic call to the Church to form a goodness culture that resists abuses of power and promotes healing. We chat about recent scandals of abuse and coverup in the modern church, why we've created toxic church cultures and how we can move toward more beautiful cultures of goodness (Tov) in our churches. Also, we get some dirt on Scot from Laura about some fun and mildly embarrassing stories from growing up with a biblical scholar. Fun times!The whiskey featured in this episode is Belle Meade Bourbon from Green Brier Distillery in Nashville, TN.Support the show

Creating a Culture of Goodness in the Church

Faith Seeking Understanding

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 13, 2021 58:55

An Interview with Scot McKnight on his book, A Church Called Tov. Scot holds the Julius R. Mantey Chair of New Testament at Northern Seminary, Lisle, Illinois. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/allan-r-bevere/message

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A Church Called Tov | Scot McKnight & Laura Barringer

Preacher Boys Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 7, 2021 59:10

Support the Show:https://www.patreon.com/preacherboys Purchase a Preacher Boys shirt, mask, sticker, or other merch to rep the show! https://www.teepublic.com/user/preacher-boys-podcast----------------------A Church Called Description: Tragically, in recent years, Christians have gotten used to revelations of abuses of many kinds in our most respected churches―from Willow Creek to Harvest, from Southern Baptist pastors to Sovereign Grace churches. Respected author and theologian Scot McKnight and former Willow Creek member Laura Barringer wrote this book to paint a pathway forward for the church.We need a better way. The sad truth is that churches of all shapes and sizes are susceptible to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse. Abuses occur most frequently when Christians neglect to create a culture that resists abuse and promotes healing, safety, and spiritual growth.How do we keep these devastating events from repeating themselves? We need a map to get us from where we are today to where we ought to be as the body of Christ. That map is in a mysterious and beautiful little Hebrew word in Scripture that we translate “good,” the word tov.In this book, McKnight and Barringer explore the concept of tov―unpacking its richness and how it can help Christians and churches rise up to fulfill their true calling as imitators of Jesus.----------------------About Scot McKnight:Dr. Scot McKnight is a world-renowned speaker, writer, professor and equipper of the Church. He is a recognized authority on the historical Jesus, early Christianity, and the New Testament. His blog, Jesus Creed, is a leading Christian blog.Dr. McKnight's most recent books include Reading Romans Backwards and Pastor Paul.A sought after speaker, he has been interviewed on several radio and television programs as well as spoken at numerous local churches, conferences, colleges, and seminaries in the United States and around the world. Scot McKnight is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature and the Society for New Testament Studies.McKnight's books have been translated into Chinese, Korean, Russian, and Portuguese.----------------------About Laura Barringer:Laura Barringer is a teacher of primary-grade students. She is the co-author of Sharing God's Love: The Jesus Creed for Children and wrote a teacher lesson and activity guide to accompany the book. She is also co-author of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Laura is a graduate of Wheaton College (IL) and currently resides in the Chicago suburbs with her husband, Mark, and three beagles.----------------------Books mentioned on the episode:A Church Called Tov: https://amzn.to/2Mz4mAGJesus & John Wayne: https://amzn.to/36KFHjiThe Making of Biblical Womanhood: https://amzn.to/3cZZbVhIcons of Christ: https://amzn.to/36OizAFIn the Closet of the Vatican: https://amzn.to/3pYfZzn----------------------Find more stories regarding the IFB movement by visiting:– preacherboysdoc.com– https://www.facebook.com/preacherboysdoc/– https://twitter.com/preacherboysdoc– https://www.instagram.com/preacherboysdoc/To connect with a community who share the Preacher Boys Podcast mission to expose abuse in the IFB, join the OFFICIAL Preacher Boys Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1403898676438188/Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/preacher-boys-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

S1E6: Assault, Boundaries, and a Vision for Kids

Beggar's Bread

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 10, 2020 56:20

In this episode of Beggar's Bread, co-host Luke interviews his sister Kristin! To read further on resisting abuse in the church, we recommend A Church Called Tov by Scot McKnight https://www.amazon.com/Church-Called-Tov-Goodness-Promotes/dp/1496446003 For further information on teaching kids body safety, we recommend Respectful Parenting: Janet Lansbury Unruffled https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/respectful-parenting-janet-lansbury-unruffled/id1030050704 We hope you enjoyed your time with us; come back next week when we talk about "The Forgotten Sin" Would you like to support Beggar's Bread? Head on over to our Patreon, where subscribing will not only help us out, but also grant you exclusive bonus content! https://www.patreon.com/beggarsbread

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How Churches Can Be “TOV,” Not Toxic