The Katie C. Sawyer Podcast

In this episode of the Katie C. Sawyer podcast, host Katie welcomes back Chloe Mikles, a marine biologist and PhD candidate, to discuss her research on bluefin tuna and black marlin. They explore Chloe's recent adventures at Tropic Star Lodge, the importance of conservation efforts in fishing communities, and the innovative tagging programs that help scientists understand these species better. The conversation also delves into the economic impacts of fisheries management and the role of citizen science in marine research, particularly through the Great Marlin Race. In this conversation, Chloe and Katie delve into the dynamics of fishing tournaments, particularly the Great Marlin Race, and the importance of citizen science in engaging anglers. They discuss Chloe's collaboration with renowned marine artist and scientist Dr. Guy Harvey, her experiences fishing with experts, and the techniques used in tagging Black Marlin. The conversation also explores the physiological differences between Black and Blue Marlin, their behaviors, and the ongoing research in billfish conservation. In this conversation, Chloe and Katie delve into the complexities of billfish species, particularly focusing on black marlin. They discuss the challenges of understanding migration patterns and spawning locations, the innovative tagging and tracking methods being developed, and the importance of community involvement in marine research. Chloe shares insights from her research project, highlighting the need for collaboration and funding to support conservation efforts. The conversation emphasizes the excitement of exploration in marine biology and the significance of engaging the fishing community in scientific endeavors. https://www.tagagiant.org/ Email Chloe: csmikles@stanford.edu Instagram: @Coastal_chloe   takeaways Chloe is a PhD candidate studying bluefin tuna and black marlin. Tropic Star Lodge is a premier location for fishing and research. Conservation efforts are supported by local fishing communities. Tagging programs provide crucial data on fish migration patterns. Bluefin tuna research has been extensive due to their economic importance. Pacific bluefin tuna populations have shown signs of recovery. The Great Marlin Race engages anglers in scientific research. Citizen science is vital for gathering data on billfish. Fishermen's observations contribute to scientific understanding. Effective fisheries management is essential for sustainable fishing. The Great Maryland Race involves tournaments where the furthest fish wins. Citizen science enhances angler engagement and investment in fish conservation. Collaboration with experts like Guy Harvey enriches research efforts. Fishing with seasoned professionals provides invaluable learning experiences. Tagging efforts require collaboration among the fishing community. Understanding fish physiology is crucial for successful releases. Black Marlin exhibit different behaviors compared to Blue Marlin. The fight dynamics of Black Marlin can vary significantly. Research on billfish phylogeny is constantly evolving with new data. Effective conservation strategies depend on angler participation and education. Billfish species have complex migration patterns and spawning locations. Black marlin are primarily found in the Indo-Pacific, with limited known spawning sites. Tagging technology is evolving to better track billfish movements. Community involvement is crucial for marine research and conservation efforts. Understanding climate impacts, like El Nino, is vital for fish populations. Innovative tagging methods are being tested to improve data collection. Collaboration among scientists is essential for advancing marine research. The fishing community plays a significant role in supporting conservation initiatives. Research on billfish can lead to better management practices for fisheries. Engaging the public in marine science can foster greater awareness and support for conservation.  

In this engaging conversation, Katie C. Sawyer interviews Dwight Hwang, a master of Gyotaku, the Japanese art of fish printing. Dwight shares the history and techniques of Gyotaku, its cultural variations, and his personal journey as an artist. He discusses the challenges he faced in pursuing his passion for art, the influence of his family, and the importance of storytelling in his work. The conversation highlights the deep connection between art, nature, and personal memories, making Gyotaku a unique and meaningful form of artistic expression. In this segment of the conversation, Dwight Hwang shares his journey from filmmaking to the art of Gyotaku, emphasizing the importance of authenticity in art and the energy that fresh fish brings to his prints. He discusses the challenges he faced during his transition, the pivotal moments that led him to embrace fish printing, and the collaborative efforts with his family in this unique art form. The conversation delves into the technical aspects of preparing fish for printing, the significance of Sumi ink and Washi paper, and the intricate techniques involved in capturing the essence of different fish species, including rare specimens like the anglerfish. In this conversation, Dwight Hwang shares his journey as an artist specializing in fish printing and human portraits. He discusses the intricate process of creating dynamic prints, the challenges of working with different subjects, and the emotional connections formed through art. Dwight also highlights the importance of family in his creative process and how his work has evolved to include powerful human stories, particularly in the context of social issues. The discussion emphasizes the therapeutic nature of art and the deep connections it fosters between the artist and the subjects. Find Dwight's Website Here See Dwight on Instagram Here  

Find Jen:  @Jenjofoto  @jenjonesweddings  @thefotobus.co Summary In this engaging conversation, Katie and Jen explore the multifaceted world of photography, entrepreneurship, and the thrilling experiences of freediving. Jen shares her journey as a successful entrepreneur in the wedding photography industry, her life in Baja, and the dynamics of her relationship with her husband, Wiley, who works in the filming business. They reminisce about their serendipitous meeting in Panama and the exhilarating adventures they've had in the ocean, including the challenges and safety concerns of freediving. The discussion delves into the role of ego in pushing personal boundaries and the importance of listening to one's body in extreme sports. In this engaging conversation, Katie and Jen discuss their experiences with freediving and spearfishing, emphasizing the importance of safety, the mental aspects of diving, and the primal connection to the ocean. They share personal stories, highlight the significance of dive buddies, and delve into the physiological effects of hypoxia and blackouts. The discussion also touches on the meditative state achieved during dives and the thrill of hunting in blue water, creating a rich narrative about the underwater adventure. In this conversation, Jen shares her journey into free diving certification, the challenges she faced, and the importance of stepping outside one's comfort zone. She discusses her entrepreneurial ventures, emphasizing the significance of pursuing passions and the growth that comes from overcoming obstacles. The dialogue highlights the connection between personal experiences in diving and the broader themes of self-discovery and resilience in entrepreneurship.   Keywords photography, entrepreneurship, freediving, ocean, collaboration, women in business, work-life balance, Baja, spearfishing, adventure, freediving, spearfishing, safety, hypoxia, dive buddies, mental health, ocean, underwater, fishing, adventure, free diving, certification, comfort zone, entrepreneurship, personal growth, underwater photography, self-discovery, risk-taking, passion, adventure

In this conversation, Katie and Hannah discuss their shared experiences in the fishing industry, focusing on Hannah's journey from recreational fishing to becoming a mate on a sport fishing boat in Tahiti. They explore the challenges faced by women in the industry, the importance of mentorship, and the transition to professional fishing. Hannah shares her early experiences, the obstacles she overcame, and the pivotal moments that shaped her career, including her move to Hawaii and the lessons learned along the way. In this conversation, Hannah Drake shares her experiences of moving from the East Coast to Hawaii, detailing the challenges she faced in finding stable housing and transportation. She discusses the steep learning curve of adapting to a new fishing culture, particularly the transition from light tackle to heavy tackle fishing. The conversation also delves into the gender dynamics within the fishing industry, highlighting the scrutiny women often face and the importance of building professional relationships. Hannah reflects on her journey with the Sea Weas, a private boat, and the various experiences that shaped her career in sport fishing. In this conversation, Hannah and Katie share their memorable experiences while boating and fishing in various locations, including the Darien Rainforest, Panama, the Azores, and Madeira. They discuss cultural encounters with indigenous tribes, the challenges of navigating rough waters, and the joys of fishing in beautiful locations. The conversation highlights the unique wildlife experiences and the camaraderie developed during their adventures, as well as the local regulations they encountered while fishing. In this conversation, Hannah Drake shares her experiences traveling through the Azores and the Mediterranean while working on a fishing boat. She discusses the challenges faced during their journey, including weather delays, boat repairs, and visa issues. Hannah emphasizes the importance of having a good agent when traveling internationally and offers advice for those pursuing their passions. The conversation also delves into the thrill of marlin fishing and the logistics involved in being a mate on a fishing boat, as well as the dynamics of working alongside a spouse in such a unique environment.   Keywords fishing, Tahiti, mentorship, career transition, sport fishing, women in fishing, boat life, Hawaii, fishing community, personal journey, Hawaii, fishing culture, gender dynamics, sport fishing, relationships, challenges, transition, respect, Sea Weas, fishing industry, boating, fishing, cultural experiences, Darien Rainforest, Azores, Madeira, challenges, adventures, Azores, Mediterranean, fishing, travel, boat repairs, visa issues, marlin fishing, working with spouse, adventure, ocean

Email Opt In : https://katiecsawyer.myflodesk.com/signmeup GZ Tackle :  https://gzlures.com?sca_ref=6571672.xDzpJx3JXx Summary In this episode, Katie reflects on her adventures in 2024, including her podcast launch, partnerships with GZ Tackle, and her experiences elk hunting in Idaho and fishing in Australia. She shares her excitement for upcoming projects in 2025, including women's bill fishing clinics and a scholarship program, while emphasizing her commitment to wildlife and nature conservation.   Keywords   fishing, podcast, elk hunting, Australia, women's clinics, GZ Tackle, micro courses, wildlife, nature, outdoor adventures

Jesse Griffiths, chef and co-owner of Dai Due in Austin, discusses his passion for sourcing food locally and sustainably. He emphasizes the importance of connecting with the food source and understanding the seasonality of ingredients. Griffiths shares his unique approach to food, which includes hunting, fishing, and foraging. He also talks about the New School of Traditional Cookery, his restaurant's butcher shop, and the Texas wine industry. Griffiths highlights the need for stewardship of resources and the importance of private landowners in facilitating hunting opportunities. The conversation explores the topic of hunting and the importance of introducing new hunters to the experience. It delves into the issue of feral hogs in Texas and the need for their eradication. The conversation also addresses the misconception that pigs are not good to eat and highlights the deliciousness of wild hog meat. The care and butchering of pigs are discussed, emphasizing the importance of keeping the meat cold and dry. In this part of the conversation, Jesse Griffiths and Katie discuss the misconceptions and best practices for handling and cooling wild game, specifically deer and hogs. They talk about the importance of not directly putting the meat on ice and instead using a cooler to allow for proper cooling and moisture removal. Jesse emphasizes the difference between bleeding an animal and removing moisture from the muscles. They also touch on the topic of brining and how it can improve flavor and texture. The conversation then shifts to potential diseases in wild game and the importance of wearing gloves during the skinning and gutting process. Jesse explains that freezing the meat for an extended period of time and cooking it to a high temperature can help eliminate any potential risks. They conclude the conversation by discussing some of Jesse's favorite recipes from his hog and turkey books.   Links: Afield The Hog Book The Turkey Book Dai Due & NSTC   Takeaways   Sourcing food locally and sustainably allows for a deeper connection with the food source and a better understanding of seasonality. Hunting, fishing, and foraging are important aspects of Griffiths' approach to food and allow for a diverse range of ingredients. The New School of Traditional Cookery and the butcher shop at Dai Due provide opportunities for people to learn about and engage with the food they consume. The Texas wine industry is growing and offers a unique opportunity to pair local wines with local food. Private landowners play a crucial role in facilitating hunting opportunities and promoting stewardship of resources. Introducing new hunters to the experience of hunting is important for dispelling misconceptions and fostering appreciation for resources. Feral hogs are an invasive species in Texas and their population needs to be controlled through hunting and eradication efforts. Pigs are delicious and can be prepared in various ways depending on their size and characteristics. Proper care and butchering techniques, such as keeping the meat cold and dry, are essential for preserving the quality of wild hog meat. Proper cooling and moisture removal are important for handling wild game. Bleeding an animal is different from removing moisture from the muscles. Brining can improve flavor and texture in wild game. Wearing gloves during the skinning and gutting process can help prevent potential diseases. Freezing the meat for an extended period of time and cooking it to a high temperature can eliminate risks. Jesse Griffiths has a hog book and a turkey book with a wide array of recipes.   Keywords   sourcing food, farm-to-table, sustainable, local, hunting, fishing, foraging, traditional cookery, butcher shop, Texas wine, private land, stewardship, hunting, feral hogs, Texas, eradication, wild hog meat, care, butchering, cold, dry, wild game, handling, cooling, misconceptions, bleeding, moisture removal, brining, diseases, gloves, freezing, cooking, recipes

Summary In this conversation, Katie interviews Paulo Afonso, an Azorian freediver and member of the Rife International Spear Fishing Team. They discuss Paulo's background, his upbringing in Pico Island, and his passion for spearfishing and free diving. Paulo shares his experiences and techniques for blue water spearfishing, including how he selects and shoots fish, and the risks involved. He also talks about the importance of preparation, staying calm in high-intensity situations, and the thrill of the pursuit. Paulo emphasizes the need for safety protocols and the impact of having children on his approach to diving. In this part of the conversation, Paulo discusses the importance of having a dive buddy and the role they play in ensuring safety during a dive. He emphasizes the rule of one diver down and one diver up, and how a dive buddy can help in case of emergencies such as a shark approaching or a blackout. Paulo also shares his experience with blackouts and how to react in such situations. The conversation then shifts to the safety protocols for boat captains when divers are in the water, including the importance of staying vigilant and knowing the exact location of the divers. Paulo also talks about the equipment he uses, such as dive computers and fish finders, and how he takes care of his equipment after a dive. The chapter ends with a discussion on reef diving, including the importance of knowing the dive spots, waiting for the fish to come in, and the role of communication between dive buddies. In this final part of the conversation, Paulo discusses his most memorable moment in the ocean, the role of emotions in spearfishing, and his content creation process. He also shares tips for diving with sharks and dealing with challenging situations while spearfishing. Paulo talks about the different species of amberjack and his favorite ways to prepare and eat fish. He provides information on where to find his content on social media. Instagram and YouTube:  @pauloafonso9268  Takeaways Paulo grew up in Pico Island, surrounded by the ocean and a family of spearfishers. He developed a passion for spearfishing and free diving from a young age and has honed his skills over the years. Paulo's approach to blue water spearfishing involves chasing bait balls and using birds and dolphins as indicators. He remains calm and focused in high-intensity situations, relying on his instincts and experience. Safety is a priority for Paulo, and he takes precautions to mitigate risks and ensure a safe diving experience. Having a dive buddy is crucial for safety during a dive, as they can help in case of emergencies and provide support. Boat captains should always stay vigilant and know the exact location of the divers to prevent any accidents or loss of divers. Proper equipment, such as dive computers and fish finders, can enhance the diving experience and improve safety. Reef diving requires patience and waiting for the fish to come in, and communication between dive buddies is important for success. Taking care of equipment, including rinsing with fresh water and drying in the shade, is essential for its longevity. Emotions play a key role in spearfishing, as animals can sense your intentions and energy. When diving with sharks, it's important to keep your eyes on them at all times and be aware of their behavior. In challenging situations while spearfishing, it's crucial to stay calm and assess the problems before taking action. There are different species of amberjack, and the ones in the Azores are highly prized for their taste and quality. Paulo's favorite way to prepare fish is grilling, as it brings out the flavors and juiciness. Paulo shares his content on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube under the name @pauloafonso . Keywords: freediving, spearfishing, Pico Island, Azores, blue water diving, safety protocols, dive buddy, safety, blackout, boat captain, equipment, reef diving, communication, ocean, memorable moment, emotions, spearfishing, sharks, challenging situations, amberjack, fish preparation, content creation, social media

For more information email me at: Katie@katiecsawyer.com   Summary   In this episode of the Katie C. Sawyer Podcast, host Katie sits down with Jamie Melvin, a fly fisherman and guide specializing in billfish. They discuss Jamie's journey from fishing in Kenya to guiding in the Galapagos, the unique fishing opportunities available there, and the importance of conservation. The conversation delves into the techniques of fly fishing for billfish, the dynamics of fishing as a team sport, and the incredible biodiversity of the Galapagos Islands. Jamie shares insights on what to expect when booking a fishing trip, the role of a guide, and the overall experience of fishing in such a magical location.   The Galapagos is an opportunity you don't want to miss! Email Katie today to learn how you can partake.  Dates in 2024 still available!   Takeaways   Jamie Melvin specializes in fly fishing for billfish. Kenya offers a unique fishing experience with multiple species. The Galapagos is known for its incredible striped marlin fishery. Teasing techniques are crucial for successful billfish fishing. Fishing in the Galapagos combines adventure with conservation efforts. Guided trips provide opportunities for learning and skill development. Fishing is a team sport that requires coordination and communication. The Galapagos Islands are a biodiversity hotspot. Guests can expect a full-service fishing experience in the Galapagos. Fishing connects individuals to nature and promotes environmental awareness.

Sit down with Katie and Kelly as they discuss the incredible fishery off the Great Barrier Reef. With nearly 30 years of professional fishing experience between these two women, it's a conversation filled with offshore information that even the most seasoned fisherman can enjoy. Kelly Photography: https://www.kelldallfall.com/marlin-photography/ In this episode of the Katie C. Sawyer podcast, host Katie interviews Kelly Dalling Fallonn, a seasoned charter operator and photographer with over two decades of experience fishing the Great Barrier Reef. They discuss the unique aspects of the Australian fishery, particularly for black marlin, and delve into fishing techniques, daily routines, seasonal patterns, and the importance of the fishing vessel KEKOA. Kelly shares her insights on chair fishing, tackle strategies, and the role of the tower in enhancing the fishing experience. In this conversation, Kelly shares her extensive experience in the fishing industry, particularly focusing on the unique challenges and regulations of fishing in Australia. She discusses the different charter options available, the importance of teamwork and crew dynamics, and the evolving role of women in sport fishing. The conversation also delves into practical fishing techniques, the significance of seasonal fishing patterns, and advice for aspiring crew members looking to work on the Great Barrier Reef.   Takeaways   Kelly has been fishing on the Great Barrier Reef for over 20 years. The Great Barrier Reef offers a unique fishing experience with large black marlin. Fishing techniques vary based on the time of day and conditions. Daily routines include fishing, snorkeling, and socializing on the reef. The fishing season for black marlin typically runs from September to December. Using circle hooks enhances the fishing experience and success rate. The Kikoa is a specially designed fishing vessel for the reef. Chair fishing requires specific techniques for optimal performance. The tower provides a significant advantage in spotting fish and managing baits. Fishing is not just about catching fish, but also about the overall experience. Australia has strict regulations for charter boats. Fishing requires teamwork and effective communication. Women are increasingly taking on roles in sport fishing. Daily routines are crucial during the short fishing season. Crew dynamics can make or break a fishing trip. Wiring fish requires specific techniques for success. Juvenile black marlin fishing is a unique experience. Networking is essential for finding crew opportunities. Planning ahead is vital for booking fishing charters. Fishing is about passion and dedication, not just money.  

As a wilderness videographer and photographer capturing the story of big game hunting, Luke Dusenbury has found himself in many challenging situations. In this conversation, Katie interviews Luke Dusenbury, a videographer and photographer specializing in wilderness content. They discuss Luke's background in photography and filmography, his experiences working on the Sport Fishing Championship Series, and his portfolio of hunting and fishing adventures. They specifically dive into Luke's experience filming a caribou hunt in the Alaskan tundra, highlighting the challenges of extreme weather conditions, power management, and water purification in remote locations. In this part of the conversation, Luke Dusenbury shares advice on preparing for a public lands elk hunt and the challenges of being a camera guy while hunting. He emphasizes the importance of having duplicates of essential items and being mindful of scent control. Luke also discusses the role of thermals in elk hunting and the need to understand wind patterns. He highlights the physical and mental challenges of hunting in high elevation and rugged terrain. Luke provides insights on packing for a day hunt and the essential items to have in a kill kit. He also discusses the importance of safety precautions and recommends wilderness training courses. Finally, Luke shares lessons he has learned from hunting with experienced hunters and the value of being a student of the game. Luke Dusenbury shares a hunting story where he and his team had to hike for miles in the snow to retrieve their backpacks, which they had left behind. They learned the importance of never leaving their backpacks in the mountains and the need to be prepared with enough food and supplies. Luke also discusses the management of predators like cougars and bears, highlighting the importance of proper predator management for the conservation of ungulate species. He emphasizes the need for balance and science-based biology in managing predator populations.   Battery charger/solar panel/charging banks:  Power Bank: https://amzn.to/46qsJVG Solar Panel:  https://amzn.to/4fegL5t Kill Bag Trekking Poles Luke's Website: https://lukedusenburyphotography.com/   Mountain Lion Book: Beast in the Garden   Insta: https://www.instagram.com/luke.dusenbury?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==   Handle: @Luke.dusenbury 

Summary In this episode, Katie sits down with Peter Chaibongsai and TJ Morrell from the Billfish Foundation. They discuss the organization's mission and the importance of research, advocacy, and education in preserving offshore fish populations and supporting the communities that depend on them. They highlight the various programs and resources available to the community, such as membership, newsletters, and youth programs. Peter and TJ also explain their role in representing the recreational fishing community in regulatory matters and their efforts to connect scientists and fishermen to gather valuable data. Overall, the conversation emphasizes the foundation's commitment to preserving the marine environment and passing on the love of fishing to future generations. The conversation covers the technical difficulties experienced during the recording, the importance of The Billfish Foundation's (TBF) regulatory advocacy, the tagging and release program, data collection and socioeconomic information, the importance of recreational fishing, online reporting and incentive programs, the tagging program competition, and the recognition of crew and lifetime achievement awards. The conversation covers the recognition of outstanding individuals in the fishing community, the upcoming awards and gala, membership services and subscriptions, engaging the youth through magazines, the importance of tagging data, international tagging operations, streamlining commercial data collection, and supporting the Billfish Foundation.  Takeaways The Billfish Foundation focuses on research, advocacy, and education to preserve offshore fish populations and support the communities that depend on them. Membership, newsletters, and youth programs are some of the resources available to the community. The foundation plays a crucial role in representing the recreational fishing community in regulatory matters and connecting scientists and fishermen to gather valuable data. The ultimate goal is to preserve the marine environment and pass on the love of fishing to future generations. The Billfish Foundation plays a crucial role in advocating for regulations that protect billfish and the recreational fishing community. The tagging and release program is a cornerstone of TBF's work, providing valuable data for research and conservation efforts. Data collected through the program helps researchers understand migration patterns, population sizes, and other important information about billfish. TBF's advocacy efforts ensure that the recreational fishing community has a voice in policy decisions that affect their interests. The Billfish Foundation recognizes individuals who have made a difference in the fishing community. The annual gala is a fundraising event that brings the community together and celebrates the achievements of individuals in the industry. Membership services and subscriptions, such as magazines for youth anglers, provide educational resources and promote marine science. Tagging data is crucial for understanding fish populations and making informed management decisions. The Billfish Foundation is involved in international tagging operations and offers grants for tagging supplies. Streamlining commercial data collection can provide valuable information for conservation efforts. Supporting the Billfish Foundation through membership, donations, or sponsorship helps further their mission of conserving billfish populations. Membership signup : https://billfish.org/become-a-member/?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwzIK1BhAuEiwAHQmU3ikMzYodcBAKi7VgwCd7r7qFaIDCq9UPYOxdKGmvaABsbnNCtSpgshoCngAQAvD_BwE Tag and Release Competition: https://billfish.org/competition/ Tag and Release Kits : https://shop.billfish.org/collections/tbf-tagging-equipment/products/taggingkits Newsletter Signup : https://billfish.org/newsletter/ TBF Merch: https://shop.billfish.org/ Gala tickets: https://event.auctria.com/32fef710-de8c-42f3-9619-69c87b19b44a/09480e501ee611eaa945bb9e2ddcf87f Subscription for youth magazines Billfish: https://billfish.org/magazines/#tab-id-1 Sailfish: https://billfish.org/magazines/#tab-id-2 Spearfish: https://billfish.org/magazines/#tab-id-3 Bluewater: https://billfish.org/magazines/#tab-id-4

This conversation covers the history, growth, and impact of the White Marlin Open tournament. It explores the involvement of the tournament directors and their dedication to the event. The chapters also discuss the progression of the tournament, the introduction of Calcutta's and prize money, and the point structure for catch and release. The conversation highlights the economic impact of the tournament on the local community and the creation of Marlin Fest as a companion event. It also touches on the conservation efforts and the role of the tournament in preventing the white marlin from being listed as endangered. The chapters conclude with a discussion of the directors' roles and responsibilities in organizing the tournament. The conversation with Madelyne Duffy, the Tournament Director of the White Marlin Open, covered various topics related to running the event and the challenges faced in the fishing industry. The chapters include discussions on running the event as a family, sticking to ethics and integrity, challenges of working with family, the threat of offshore wind, crowded fishing grounds and speed restrictions, dealing with drama and controversy, memorable moments of the White Marlin Open, the impact of sonar technology, the small boat category, the importance of the white marlin category, female involvement in the tournament, and the appeal of the ocean.   Takeaways   The White Marlin Open is the world's largest and richest billfish tournament, with a significant economic impact on the local community. The tournament has grown organically over the years, with the addition of Calcutta's and the establishment of Sunset Marina as a game changer. Conservation efforts, such as the use of circle hooks and length minimums, have been implemented to protect the fishery. Marlin Fest provides an opportunity for spectators to experience the tournament and support local businesses. The tournament directors are involved in all aspects of the event, from rule changes to trash collection.

Summary Curtis De Silva, a professional fisherman, shares his experience fishing in Madeira and the Southern Caribbean. He recently caught a grander blue marlin in Madeira and discusses the fishing techniques and spread used. Curtis also talks about his father, Captain Frothy, and their fishing background. He compares the fishing conditions and challenges in Madeira and the Southern Caribbean, including dealing with seaweed in the Caribbean and paperwork in Madeira. Curtis also mentions the differences in migratory patterns and water temperatures that contribute to the size of fish in each region. The conversation with Curtis De Silva focuses on his experiences fishing in Madeira and the Azores. The marine life in these areas is spectacular, with abundant bait, birds, and various sea creatures. The conversation covers topics such as the underwater banks and seamounts in the Azores, the impact of sea surface temperatures on fishing, the decision to pull boats out of the water during the off-season, the challenges of fishing in rough swells, the boatyard in Madeira, and the international fleet in Madeira. Curtis also shares his favorite fishing memories with his father and his passion for billfish. Fish with Curtis: search @madierasportfishing on facebook or instagram   Takeaways Curtis De Silva caught a grander blue marlin in Madeira, weighing 1048 pounds. Fishing in Madeira is characterized by calm waters and a close proximity to the shore. The fishing season in Madeira is from June to September/October. The Southern Caribbean has tournaments for sailfish and smaller blue marlin. Challenges in the Southern Caribbean include dealing with seaweed and rough weather. Fishing in Madeira is relatively easy, with the main challenge being locating blue marlin. Madeira has a large average size of blue marlin compared to other fishing locations. Paperwork and documentation are meticulous in Madeira. The migratory patterns and water temperatures contribute to the size of fish in each region. The marine life in Madeira and the Azores is spectacular, with abundant bait, birds, and various sea creatures. The Azores have underwater banks and seamounts that attract fish, including blue marlin. Sea surface temperatures can impact fishing, with extreme high temperatures affecting the Azores and Madeira. Boats are pulled out of the water during the off-season in Madeira and the Azores due to the slowing down of the marlin migration and the risk of damage from rough swells. The boatyard in Madeira is situated under the airport runway and provides services for boats. Madeira has an international fleet with charter boats operated by local and foreign captains. Curtis De Silva has a passion for billfish and targets big blue marlin in Madeira. Fishing with his father and catching his first blue marlin are some of Curtis' most cherished fishing memories. Releasing fish is a common practice in billfishing, and recreational fishermen play a role in understanding fish migration patterns. Curtis De Silva also runs charters in the Southern Caribbean, specifically in Grenada. Keywords: fishing, Madeira, Southern Caribbean, blue marlin, grander, Captain Frothy, techniques, spread, challenges, seaweed, paperwork, migratory patterns, water temperature, fishing, Madeira, Azores, marine life, sea surface temperatures, underwater banks, seamounts, boatyard, fleet, billfish Transcript: Katie (00:00.43) Today's guest is my friend Curtis De Silva from Trinidad and Tobago. Curtis has spent his entire professional career fishing between the Southern Caribbean and the island of Madeira. In fact, he has fished the last 15 seasons on the island of Madeira and a few weeks ago, weighed the first and as of July 2nd only grander of the 2024 Blue Marlin season. In this episode, we're gonna dive into the story about that fish, as well as what it takes to fish the Eastern Atlantic islands of Madeira and the Azores, how they compare to the fishery of the Southern Caribbean, and looking into a little bit on the relationship between Curtis and his father, legendary Captain Frothy from the Pesca Grossa, as well as why fishing is so important to him. It's always a pleasure to sit down and talk to Curtis and it's another great episode in the books. You're not going to want to miss it. Katie (01:06.734) Welcome to the Katie C. Sawyer podcast. Today I'm sitting with my good friend, Curtis De Silva. Curtis, where are you tuning in from? Hello. How are you going, Katie? Good. I'm tuning in from sunny Calheta, Madeira. That's right. Madeira. You guys, Madeira is an autonomous island owned by Portugal in the Atlantic Ocean. Curtis and I met a couple of years ago while we were fishing there with the On Location. Now, Curtis, you I want to get into your background. I want to get into your story. But first, I can't skip these important details. You had a really good fishing day just recently, just a few days ago. You want to tell us about it? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you could jump right into that story if you'd like. Yeah, it's a pretty good one. So I think it was Monday this week. We went out on My dad's fishing boat is called the Pesca Grossa. And we had some clients that flew in from the States. They were on their honeymoon. They were keen to go one day blue marlin fishing. So we were fishing on board, you know, the 30 foot, just a little 30 foot sport fishing boat out here in Madeira And yeah, maybe about four o 'clock or so we hooked up onto a good fish, you know. it was actually a really interesting play. One of the better ones I've seen in my life. so one, one fish came up on the teaser on our right teaser, really short to the boat, maybe 10 or 15 feet from the back of the, the, the boat. And I threw the pitch out and it did not switch on to the pitch, you know, so it faded off onto our left long. What were you pitching? Just a mackerel, about a two pound Spanish mackerel, chin weighted, with a 10 o' circle hook. Yeah, so that fish faded off, you know, and hit the left lure and left long. Missed it completely. And about maybe a moment later, maybe five or 10 seconds, another fish came up and just crashed, but the short, the right short, you know? Katie (03:33.326) Teal off a bunch of line. We got the lady angler in the chair, you know, it may be about a 40 minute fight or so. We had the fish, three sides of the boat. When it was there, we just, we decided to take it. We decided to take it on board. Cause it was, it was a pretty big fish. When I larger ones we've seen both side in a long time. So we decided to take him. Yeah. Pretty big fish. A grander. How much did that fish weigh? Yes, it was 1048, 170 some kilos. I can't remember exactly in kilos, but it was 1048 pounds. It was really amazing to see that there was actually two of them. The first fish that showed up, how big was that one? Average Madeira size when I was there for the one season was somewhere between five and 700 pounds. A good size fish is 800. We were looking for the grander ourselves. We never found it. We never, well, Drake saw it. We've talked about that before, but we never found it. So how big was that first fish that showed up? So the first fish was probably very similar in size, you know? Stop. Yeah. So two big girls crashing on your baits. So what is your spread like? I mean, you have short teasers. You said you you're doing a like a macro pitch with teasers close to the boat. So those don't have hooks in them. And then you have or I don't know what you call them because then you called it the short lure. The right short is where you caught that second fish on. So you have a J hook in that one, right? That's right. So we fish a pretty simple spread over here. You know, we fish one 30s and we would have four four four lures with hooks in them. Any water at all times, you know? So left short, left, left and right short and left and right long would all have, you know, 10 OJ hooks in them. That's how we target them with 550 pound mono leader. And then you're also pulling teasers? Yeah. So we pull two teasers right up close to the boat. Yeah, that's basically all Madeira spread. That's awesome. What lures did these fish show up on? Katie (05:55.134) well, they actually showed up on my dad's lure. My dad makes these lovely lures. Now, I'm not sure what the name of this particular one was, but it was one of the Captain Frothy series lures. That's so special. That is so special. Okay, so Curtis, congratulations on your grander. Was that your first grander? I mean... Thank you. That was the first one I weighed on a scale. I believe I caught a couple before. But we released them, but this is the first one that we scale, Peroni scale and wait. That's amazing. Congratulations. And for your group to be on their honeymoon, like, my gosh, you said they had one day of fishing and it was at 4 PM. I'm assuming that you go into the dock at five. Like that is some good luck for those anglers and to have such a good crew. Now you said you were fishing aboard Pesca Grossa. You guys might've heard of this boat because of The legendary captain Frothy. Now Frothy is Curtis's dad. Curtis, you want to give us a little bit of background on Frothy as well as yourself, where you guys come from, what your history is, your professional history in the sport of billfishing? Sure, absolutely. I could give you a little background. I'm starting with my dad. So my dad has been a Harvard fisherman since he was a young, since he was a boy. He always was very passionate about it. He ran a very successful charter operation in Trinidad and Tobago for most of the 80s and 90s and early 2000s having about three or so boats going out quite regularly on a daily basis. He came here, he was fortunate, he came here in the 90s, he fished here in the 90s a bit and he caught, he was well caught on his first day here fishing. thousand pound blue marlin and brought it to the scale and weighted as well in the 90s. Yeah on his first trip here. So he got he fell in love with Madeira and I think it was somewhere in the early 2000s or so he bought pescagrossa and he started a charter operation out of here in Madeira and we've been coming here since. As you know I work on I captain a boat called the Luna right now here in Madeira. Katie (08:20.27) and she's just undergoing maintenance in the yard right now. So we just held up on that waiting for that boat to come back and I'll be running that boat this season. You're from Trinidad, Tobago. Do you, what, like what, growing up, what was your seasons like? Cause you've been going to Madeira for a while, but have you been living full time in Madeira for all these years or were you traveling back and forth? How did that look? So yeah, I spent about four months out of the year here. in Madeira for the Blue Marlin season from about June to September, October. As well as, yeah, I spend the other six months in the Caribbean where I do commercial fishing as well as we do family fishing with my cousin. My cousin has a 46 hat to us in Trinidad and we go to a bunch of the tournaments in the Southern Caribbean, such as Grenada, Barbados, St. Lucia. and a couple of tournaments in Tobago as well, where I live for the other part of the year. Yeah, that's about my fishing background. I fish the Southern Caribbean a bunch as well as Hey Medaro. What are the seasons for the Southern Caribbean? What are the months and what is the tournament season specifically? And what are you targeting in those various locations? What size fish? What kind of tackle are you fishing? What does that look like? So we have a few tournaments in the Southern Caribbean. One of them is the Grenada International Bill Fishing Tournament. They have the Barbados International Game Fishing Tournament as well as the Tobago International. We fish for, you know, mainly sailfish and smaller size blue marlin. So we do do the dredge, teaser, circle hook fishing. for the smaller bellfish in the southern Caribbean. It's been very productive for the last couple of seasons. The fishing has been really well. Right before I came here, we did a three -day tournament. I think it had 30 or so boats, and they had over 130 releases, I believe it was, over three days of fishing. So the fishing back home is pretty good right now in terms of sailfish and smaller blue marlin. Katie (10:44.91) how we target them, that's the tournaments that I'm accustomed attending. Yeah, that's awesome. So what months of the year are the tournaments? Do they start in February and go through May? How does that work? So they have Grenada in January, which is the first tournament for the Southern Caribbean for the year. My dad actually fished this year and won it. He came first place fishing in... with the 46 after us, the hopscotch, my cousin, Peter and Grenada. So, that was the first tournament they have, Barbados, I believe is in March. Yes, they have the Barbados international tournament in March and the Tobago tournament is in April. Yep. That's awesome. And the Caribbean has been insane on fire this year like you touched on. I mean, it's just been really, really good fishing, which is cool because the last few years have they been a little slower than usual or to par like what what has the have the seasons been like over the last few years and have you seen them changing at all? I think the fishing has been more or less productive in the last. You know two or three years. You know it's been really hot. You know before that it's always been fairly good. It's always been decent, you know. But yeah, it's really been picking up in the last year or two. Been having a lot of, a lot more releases per average, per tournament. So. That's awesome. What are your biggest challenges when fishing the Southern Caribbean? Like, I mean, the waters are so different from what you see in Madeira, like so different already, the tackle spread, the fish you're seeing, it's all very different from each other. What are your biggest challenges in the Southern Caribbean specifically when fishing? A couple issues we deal with is one mainly seaweed, you know, the seaweed problems getting worse, especially our region. We're learning to work with that, work, you know, a couple of techniques to work with fishing in the seaweed, especially if you find pods of fish that are tangled up in there. So, you know, working on new techniques to actually be able to fish through the seaweed and work with it as opposed to just have to fish somewhere that does not have seaweed. You know, we often find Katie (13:04.142) large pods of blue marlin and sailfish right wrapped up with that sagasum seaweed, especially where it's stuck. So just working on some techniques on how to effectively fish through seaweed through the tournaments could give us a keen advantage, you know? So we, we're working on that's probably one of the most difficult. I would say that's the most difficult obstacle with fishing in Southern Caribbean right now, as well as, you know, we might get rough weather here and there, but. Part of Caribbean life for sure. So what are some of these techniques you're talking about? How do you, I love that you talk about how a lot of the fish are under that sargassum because it's an entire ecosystem. And that sargassum, you guys, it's a problem because the grass is getting tangled in the line. It's getting in front of the baits and then the fish aren't going to eat if there's a chunk of grass in front of the bait or it's all up in the dredge. So these mates are having to constantly get the grass off the line. It can be a real nuisance. But Curtis, tell me, how are you involved? What kind of techniques are you talking about? Because I'm super curious on how you fish around grass. I mean, I'll share as much as I can with you about that topic. But some of our techniques is we have really long outriggers. We have the triple spread of outriggers. and we have them mounted in a high position on the boat where we could actually run the lines a bit shorter than we normally would as in really short and really high up in the outrigger as to get that barlet who to skip a bit more over the seaweed with the circle hook more or less out the water you know using the correct line and leader material and hooks and whatever to allow for that you know but more or less so it could skip over the seaweed without actually getting tangled in it. One of the techniques, how we set up our dredges, how we run our dredges and how we set up our leaders on our teasers as well too. Would all play a good role in how much seaweed actually is able to get tangled onto your lures that you're running. Are you... Katie (15:25.838) Are you allowed to divulge a little bit more on how you set up your dredges to avoid grass? I mean, we can't do. Yeah, we can't do. Or is it top secret? Yeah. I mean, I really would. I don't want to get you in trouble. Yeah. I mean, we do set up our dredges a bit differently. You know, we don't use the spreadable dredges, you know. We set them up a bit differently. I don't think I could explain it too easily, but I could send some photos of our dredge setups when we run it through sexy weed. I would love that. Yeah, they're a little bit different from conventional dredges. Yeah, but I mean, like trying to, you know, every fishery is different, as you well know, and there's different challenges per fishery and trying to adapt your technique so that you will find success in that fishery is always so vital to your success. So what kind of like, what size weight are you putting in these balihoo that you're trolling? Like what size weight to allow them to be skipping on the surface? Right. So that's a key part as well too. So you'd be using a half ounce lead, half ounce egg shaped lead as to not have the balihoo weighted much. So it tends to skip out any water. Of course, when you're fishing balihoo, ideally you would want it to be head down. Tail Flop, Tail Wagon, ideally. But you know, when you're working with pods of sailfish and marlin right under the seaweed, they don't seem to mind if it's skipping a bit on the surface in that motion as opposed to giving you a more real feel. So we'd use the half ounce lead, we'd use maybe up to 50 pound fluorocarbon leader, even 40 pound fluorocarbon leader. Very light swivels, lightweight swivels. You know, 25 pound test line, 30 pound test line. could even drop a little bit down from that as well to us. They're just all of that helps in keeping the, the angle of the hook and the head just a bit out the water. What size hook are you fishing? I six O VMC circle hook. Yeah. Good hook. I like those. I like those. That's cool. Awesome. I love it. So, Katie (17:51.15) How many years have you been fishing the tournament season in the Southern Caribbean? maybe 15 years now with my father since I was a young boy. Many, many years. I think the first tournament I did, I'm 25. So I think I did my first tournament when I was probably, it's been more, probably when I was like eight years old, seven years old, I think I did my first fishing tournament with my dad. That's so cool. That is so cool. And, all right. So how many years have you been fishing the season in Madeira? I've been trying to count that. I believe this is my 14th season or so coming here to Madeira fishing the blue marlin season. So since you were 11. Yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah. Okay. So let's dive into Madeira a little bit. So what are, you know, we talked about in the Southern Caribbean, we're seeing a lot of grass. The weather can be pretty challenging. in Madeira, there's a very specific season for the fishing primarily because of the winter swell that will hit the island in the winter. But so you're there from June to August, I believe is what you said. And what are, like, what are your biggest challenges in Madeira for the fishing and how does it vary from the Caribbean? So fishing in Madeira. It's quite an easy fishery I would say here. Mostly we'll be fishing two or three miles from the coast in flat calm waters, very pristine, so not a lot of trash in the water, not a lot of interference. Challenges of fishing here in Madeira is more in terms of trying to locate the blue marlin as opposed to any of the conditions that are naturally occurring. It's a very safe place to fish and it's very easy to fish. We fish in very close to the shore and the weather conditions are just right for most of the four months that I'm here. So as challenges as fishing in Madeira, I don't think there are that many. The marina facilities are very nice. They have water and fuel, electric, all at the dock. They make it very straightforward and easy for you as well as... Katie (20:17.006) Living on the island is lovely. Beautiful here. Weather's right. The climate's really nice. So I don't think there's much challenges in terms of fishing. One issue we do have is being very vigorous with our paperwork here. They're very meticulous with all their policies of making sure that you have all the correct documentation to go fishing. Like what kind of documentation? What are some of the policies out there? How does that look? Is it something you have to submit? Is there a form you have to submit after every trip? How is that? Tell us a little bit more about the documentation. So we would need to just... Everything here is paperwork. So nothing is computerized, only computerized system. So it takes a few days after you submit forms or whatever to receive replies and returns in terms of that. That's a challenge on its own. As well as, you know, there are a lot of papers you need to get, you know, you need to get a lighthouse license, a fishing license. We would have out of the water inspections, as well as in the water inspections annually on the boats, as well as inspections of all, you know, the safety gear on body boat, which is pretty standard, I think, globally. But we managed to... We work around that and make sure that we have everything in compliance with it. But sometimes it takes a few days just to get a response from these guys. And that's about it. Yeah, it's hard. It's island time. Like you said, nothing's on the computer. It's all hand form, handwriting. I know that I was I was texting you earlier and you said, yeah, I'm just doing some boat paperwork. Like, let's get on a call. So I'm super into that. That's cool. But what about You know, we touched on how you're doing light tackle in the Caribbean and heavy tackle 130s. You just got a grander like over in Madeira. I'm just I'm so excited for you because the fact that two fish showed up behind the spread and you got one of them. It's just the coolest story to me. I was so stoked to see that it was the Pescadrosa and that you were on board. Why do you think like why? Katie (22:33.518) Is Madeira a spot for big fish? And why is the Caribbean a spot for smaller fish? Does it have to do with the sea floor, the bottom, the currents? What's your insight on that? Interesting. So my insight on why the larger fish tend to show up to Madeira as opposed to the Caribbean. It's a lot to do with just their general migratory patterns, as well as, you know, So the bigger ones would have a different migrational pattern. I believe the smaller fish in the Caribbean. So I think it's a lot to do with that. And in terms of why Madeira might have the biggest size average, the biggest average size blue marlin, I think out of anywhere in the world, you know? I can't tell you specifically that I know for sure, you know? But I do know that they have a... very large average size blue marlin over here. And I don't see that, you know, very often other places that I fish. But as to why they, why they do come here, not very sure, not very sure entirely. What is the water temp you're fishing there in Madeira? Right now, right now it's about 21, 22 degrees Celsius in between that range. shoot. What is that? That's like, a 7980 to in Fahrenheit. I could be wrong. It's been a while since I've Celsiused up, but that's probably that's that's pretty. How hot does it get? How hot does the water get? So last year we had a record record breaking sea surface temperatures in Portugal and here Madeira as well. The hottest I saw last year was 26, 27 degrees Celsius. I don't know what that is in Fahrenheit, but that's very hot. Okay, so I had to Google it and I looked it up and 21, 22 degrees Celsius is between 70, 72 degrees Fahrenheit, which is not very warm, especially when you're used to Gulf of Mexico waters. But 26 degrees Celsius is closer to 78, 80 degrees Fahrenheit. And when you're looking at the Eastern Atlantic, as Curtis said, record breaking temperatures, it's very warm, especially for those bigger fish. Katie (24:55.438) So how was the fishing when it was that warm? The fishing generally, it was slow. It was slow here in Madeira last season, with not too many fish being caught here by the fleet. But right next door, about 550 miles away, they had phenomenal blue marlin fishery in the Azores, you know, with very similar water temperature. Yeah. But I think it's largely to do with How the bait forms up down there, they have a lot of banks over there and that bait is able to stick to a lot of structure. Whereas opposed to Madeira, just a big shelf, you know, not too many banks fish offshore here. Madeira just drops off. So Madeira is like a really steep island. It's where I learned how to drive stick shift and it was extremely challenging, but it's a very steep island and it continues in its steepness past the water. Right. So, you know, Curtis talked about how we're fishing anywhere from one to three miles off of out of the Marina. It's because that water just it just the seafloor just drops off. So in the Azores, Curtis, have you have you spent any time fishing the Azores? So last year in October, I did a 10 day trip to the Azores to blue marlin fish and it was very good. It was probably at the peak of the peak of when the bite was red hot and Yes, I did spend 10 days there last year. So what island were you fishing on? And tell me a little bit about like the banks that you're talking about. Like, does it is it like a gradual does the seafloor decline gradually there for a little while? And the like, what was the depth that the bait was pushing up on? What was the fishing like? Give me a little bit of insight in that. We were fishing, so I was fishing off of Horta. the Azores which is just a very small island I think the population is 6 ,000 so only 6 ,000 people live on that little island and it was very remote you know they had the bar company operation was there the uno mass port fishing operation was there as well as the charter fleet we did four days fishing raised a couple couple nice Katie (27:19.022) Blue Marla, I think we caught four from six over that time, as well as hooked onto a really, really big bluefin tuna. I estimated that one to be around 1200 pounds. Yes. Yeah. It looked like somebody dropped a mid -sized bus on top of the lure. And we fought that thing for four hours. my gosh, and the water was that warm? my gosh. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. Interesting. Did y 'all see more than one bluefin or was that just the one bluefin you saw? No, there was a school of them feeding and we drove into the school. Yeah. But it was, it was very large sized bluefin tuna. It was not, it was very, very large. my gosh. That's amazing. That is amazing. Sorry. You threw me for, I was not expecting you to tell me that you caught a bluefin, in October and the Azores. Yeah. As well as some Mako sharks. Yeah, the marine life out there was spectacular. It was really something special. The water was very alive, you know, baits, birds, just lots of different sea creatures. You could tell that it was coming to life and everything was very alive out there. That's amazing. And was that when the water temp was pretty high or had it already started cooling down a little bit? So I can't recall the exact water temp. you know, on the days that I fished, but I think Azores was as well affected by similar extreme high sea surface temps as well as Madeira, you know, it was record breaking high for all of Portugal last year. That's amazing. That's crazy. So tell me about these banks you mentioned and that the baits baits pushing up there. So how does that work? OK, so they have they have these banks that are off the so they have the island structure of Porta. very similar to Madeira they have the shelf shortly after but further offshore that is essentially underwater volcanoes or you know that form the banks that rise up pretty shallow that are far off the island structure you know a bit further off the island structure like the Condor Bank I believe the Princess Alice Bank three banks Katie (29:47.534) that, pretty close to each other on, on, on in Horta. You know, I can't remember the name of the other one right now, but I definitely remember the Abicondo Bank, Princess Alice Bank. And, How far from Horta and how shallow does it get on those banks or the seamounts? How shallow does it get on the seamounts? Hmm. I think it comes all the way up to. I'm not sure exactly, you know, I'm not sure exactly, but I think it comes up to about 300, 300 meters deep. So it would come up. Yeah. That is very, yeah, that is nice. And they're close to each other. And how far from Horta are they? So I believe one, one starts at about, I think 12 kilometers and the furthest one is. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I'm just roughly remembering from my 10 day trip here, so I don't know specifically exactly, but I think it's somewhere around. Right, you're doing so good. You're doing so good. I think it's about 14 kilometers, 20 kilometers, and something like that. They have some more offshore ones as well too that I did not fish while I was there. They have great structure all over the Azores. Yeah, that sounds like, and again, kilometers and miles, I'm not doing so good with my conversions, but that sounds like they're all like within 15 miles of the island. I believe something like that, right? So that's pretty amazing. Like it's close. It's close. You're not burning a lot of fuel to get out there. I mean, not a terrible amount, but it is rough, especially during October, September, October. It's rough out there. We are most boats wouldn't be able to fully power up and those kinds of swells, but yeah, there's a fairly, you know, not, not terribly far run. That's cool. Okay. Yeah. Let's talk about how the swell changes in that part of the world during that season, because when we were in Madeira, I know I was told that a lot of the boats, like the Luna, you guys go onto the hard in the off season. Can you tell me why? And. Katie (32:08.782) And and how and that's I'm assuming that those swells affect the Azores as well So I think one of the bigger reasons that we pull the boats out usually in October is because The marlin season tends to slow down. We wouldn't find that the marlin migrate through this area much after that time You know, they they've had years and they've had periods of time where it would be calm here through december january, you know as as yet a year would change, you know, some years it could be very rough here in October or even May and June could be very rough here, depending on what the global atmosphere is like, you know. Yeah. So I think that's a big reason we pull the boats out here in October is just because the maling migration starts to slow down. But why wouldn't you leave it in the slip? Why? Why do you take the boat out of the water? You don't see that in a lot of other parts of the world. Like you when when it's the off season, the boat just sits in the slip. You know, like it's not, we're not going to take the boat out of the water in the off season unless it's an outboard. Right. So, why, why do you guys do that? And you see that throughout the entire fleet for the most part, correct? Yeah. Yep. So, a lot of the boats, a lot of the sport fishing boats here would, the captains, the crews would leave. It would leave, you know, go to Latin America, the United States, different parts of Europe and. You know, it's a risk. It's always a risk because we do have forecasts of what it should be like, you know, maybe two weeks in advance, but it's never, you're never, you're never going to know if it's going to be one of those years where you're going to have a lot of swells coming through and it might, it might damage, the boat might be damaged in the marina with no captain and crew here to check out for these boats and look after these boats. The owners find it's a lot more safe. to have them out in the water where they can't sink. Truth, truth. I know that when we got to Madeira in 2021, the wall, the bulkhead along the outside of the marina had just recently been redone. You could see where a big wave came in and just tore the seawall of the marina down. Am I right? Like, or did I make that up? Yeah, no, yes. Katie (34:31.406) So yeah, they do have big swells that come on to the sea wall and definitely knock bits of concrete off of that retaining wall that's protecting the marina. I mean, we lost a cleat. We lost a cleat when we were there from one wave just coming in and just ripping the boat. And that was in the middle of the calm season. And we're fishing in Madeira, you're fishing the lee of the island. So it is like a swimming pool out there. It's really nice. It's really close to shore. And every now and then you see two granders behind your spread. So, that's so cool. And the hard, so tell us about the boatyard in Madeira because my mind was kind of blown by that as well. We talked about how the Island is super steep. So there's not a lot of places to have a boatyard. Can you get, can you give us a little details on it? Okay, so the boatyard in Madeira is situated actually under the airport runway. And the airport runway, it's built on stilts. So it's a huge concrete structure. And yeah, they have the lovely company Technovia that has the boatyard service there. And they're always very responsive and helping us out, giving us a hand with whatever we need down there at the outhaul spot. It's pretty cool. It's an interesting place. That's so cool. Yeah, it's crazy. It's so crazy, you guys. I've never seen an airport runway that is superimposed over the ground. To have a bunch of yachts sitting under it in the boatyard is just like a Twilight Zone type experience. But Madeira is known, the airport's known for its... lack of a better word, but it's sketchiness. It's a crazy plane landing to get into Madeira. It's like a one -shot, one -shot. You can't miss, you can't miss. Those pilots. Have you flown in and out of Madeira a lot, Curtis? I'm assuming so. You get there by plane. Yes, absolutely. I've been in and out here a bunch of times now. The airport, I feel like it's fairly safe. Katie (36:51.502) like it's pretty safe you know it does feel sketchy sometimes they do close off the flights quite often they do close off the flights and they reroute them to the smaller island Porto Santo which is a few minutes flight time from here. No it's here in Madeira, it's part of Madeira. Porto Santo yeah okay yes that makes sense yeah south southeast of Madeira right? I believe so yes. Yeah. Cool. yeah, I never made it over there. Yeah. Yeah. Lovely little Island. Sometimes they do reroute the flights to Azores as well too, just depending on what the local weather conditions are like. Yeah, that's awesome. Tell us a little bit about the fleet in Madeira. You have a super international fleet there. You've got some local teams, but also teams from all sorts of different countries. Can you tell us a little bit about the size of the fleet and where people come from? So there's a, I consider it to be a small charter fleet, maybe five to eight boats or so that operate out of the, out of Madeira. And yeah, like you said, most of them, I mean, my dad runs the Pesca Grossa, I run the Luna. They have a couple of the boats with Madeira on teams, but not too many foreign people. I think they have a couple of guys from England as well too. But not that many people actually run charter boats down here. They got a small group of English guys, me and my dad and a couple local guys as well that run charter boats. That's cool. It's a great little marina, you guys. If you have a chance to fish out there, definitely take it. And I'll link Curtis's information in the description below so you can... Schedule a charter with him because he's a heck of a fisherman as you as you know from this episode He's had all sorts of experience now Curtis Tell me like your favorite day on the water in Madeira My favorite day on the water. I think it was probably this week Monday. It was a pretty good one. I really enjoyed that Yeah, maybe I didn't know going to full detail exactly as to how everything played out, but Katie (39:11.182) It was, I think that was probably one of my best moments, you know, fishing wise. It's been great. If you want to go into detail now, like let's hear it again. I mean, I'm down to sit through, I want to hear it again. Yeah. I mean, no, just in terms of not what happened, just other terms of the day, you know, like, like you said, it was their honeymoon and there were two fish, you know, so that was quite amazing. That was mind boggling for me, you know. I've seen big ones here traveling in twos before, as well as schools and pods. But just having two of them and spread like that, very similar size and actually being able to catch one and weigh one, I think, it's definitely one of my favorite experiences. That's so special. That's so special. I had a podcast with a captain, Chris Donato in Kona, and he was telling me that when he sees a big fish, a lot of times he'll see smaller fish around it. So like a female and most likely males around it. So I find it really interesting that you had two big fish in your spread at the same time. And I just like, I mean, I'm blown away by it, honestly. And y 'all hadn't seen anything the entire day, right? Like that was, those were the first fish you saw. Yeah. The first blue mollins that we saw. Yeah. We were having quite a day, you know, in terms of mark and bait, you know, and we were checking our satellite imagery, trying to locate where we might find a little bit of warmer water. And yeah, it was, it was, it was really something, you know, I mean. Do you see it in your dreams when you close your eyes at night? I mean, sometimes, yeah, I think back in the memory quite often, especially this week, you know. Definitely. Of course. It's my memory, memory, know? Yeah, I really enjoyed that. It was pretty good. Would you say that you've been fishing your whole life for that experience? I wouldn't say for that experience, but yeah, that's definitely one of the what you would target to hunt the type of fish that I would be targeting, especially when I come here to Madera, Madeira, know, I tried to target blue mullet over 500 pounds. That being well over that. Katie (41:37.102) is definitely the size fish that came at the target. Definitely. What does it mean to you to have finally weighed a grander? And Madeira, I mean, you've been fishing there for 14 years. You said you've caught a handful that you think are over the mark, but to have it, to bring it back to the dock, to catch it within 40 minutes, that's amazing. And to bring it back to the dock and weigh it and it's over the mark, it's got to be just a really proud moment for you. Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience is like? Cause I don't know what it feels like and I want to know what it's like and what it means to you specifically. Interesting. So coming back to the doc we did, we went and we were unsure if it would weigh a thousand pounds, you know, we knew it was big. We did not know it was that big, you know, so there was some speculation as to what the weight actually might be on the boat still. So we would anticipating it to be in the region of 900 to a thousand pounds you know with with our we just had a little a little measuring tape on the boat a little small one 120 inches i believe and we measured the fish the length of the fish and it took up the whole tape you know we weren't able to measure the whole fish because the tail was in the water still as well too so we're actually able to get a proper measurement on the fish until got it on the crane and off the boat. So it had a pretty big half girth at 39 inches. So we did realize that it was a very girthy fish, very fat fish. So we didn't know it had the girth of a grander, but we weren't sure about the length because the scale, the measuring tape we had didn't let us, but we pulled it off the boat and got it on the scale. found out it was 1 ,048. So it was in that moment, it was pretty cool to know that it was over ground because you know, those type of fish, like you say, blue marlin fishermen hunt for a lifetime. Yes, I think it is a fish of a lifetime. It is so cool. Now, what made y 'all decide, did the fish come up dead or did you decide to swing the gaff? So it came up tail wrapped on the leader, came up tail wrapped. Katie (43:59.31) it was pretty docile, but, we saw that the fish was pretty huge, you know, thought it was over the mark. So we decided to on both it. Yeah. It was, you know, it was a, it wasn't a very lively fish because it's been tail wrapped, you know, we were pulling it backwards for I think probably 20 minutes or 30 minutes of the 20 minute fight, but, which you guys. When that happens, that means that the fish is, it can't breathe. So it's kind of unfortunate. It's super unfortunate when a fish gets tail wrapped. But if it's a fish of that size and you're going to weigh it, it's safer for the team, you know, in these situations for this fish to be docile. They can really, you know, cause some, some havoc and it, it's a precious memory for everyone. The see, killing a fish is never like that fun. but also these fishermen, we pursue this experience our entire lives. And Curtis, do you think that now that you've achieved this, is it gonna affect the way you hit the water every day? Or do you see any differences in your mindset or your experience? No, not in particular. I don't think I see, I view fishing much differently. I always knew, you know, situations and they have fish out here that do exist like that. And I don't think it's mentally going to change the way that I approach fishing or I attach myself to fishing. You know, I'm a second generation fisherman, so I always knew fishing is a big part of my life. And I always plan to do fishing trips for the rest of my life. So, you know, I mean, I really do love fishing and I'm passionate about it, but I don't think it's changed the way I view fishing. What do you think you love so much about fishing? What do you think keeps calling you back to the ocean? Okay. I mean, obviously it's in your blood. Yeah. That's a good question. I'm very passionate about it, marine ecosystems. I love seeing fish in the natural environments. Being out there in the ocean, in Madeira, the ocean's very beautiful, fresh air, very peaceful. All great things I love about my job. Katie (46:22.158) It beats working in an office or something like this. So I think that's why I'm very passionate about it. You know, just it's a lovely environment out there and a very enjoyable, enjoyable job. I couldn't agree more. I love being on the ocean. It's just the way it makes you feel is so peaceful. And you guys, so you have Big Blue Marlin and Madeira. We've talked about that. What other fish are you catching out? there? Like, is there another fish that you target when you're fishing those waters? So, we do target big eye tuna when they are around, some large sized big eye tuna. Some of them exceeding 300 pounds, you know, other than that, we try deep dropping some, for different species of group of shark that they have here. you know, we catch all sorts of crazy creatures from the deep without deep drop in equipment. So We've been trying that as well as the wahoo fish in here is good as well too. They do have decent wahoo fish in here. But while I'm here in Madeira, I try to target my focus around fishing for big blue mollusk. It's definitely where I try to focus most of my thought. Now, why do you think like I find that interesting? Because me too, like I love tuna. I love wahoo. You know, I love eating fish. But my passion is with chasing the billfish. Like I want the billfish, you want the billfish, even though most of the time it's catch and release. Like why do you think that is? Like what is it about bill fishing? That's a good question. Well, it's visually, visually it's very, it's phenomenal. You know, when you see a mile enabled to trace one of these lures and you know, take multiple hits at it or even just one single hit go airborne or, whatever they do, you know, it's visually spectacular. So it's breathtaking in that sense. Katie (48:31.214) I mean, in terms of, you know, I just grew up blue marlin fishing. You know, my dad was always a very avid blue marlin fisherman, you know. And I guess that always seemed to be the targeted species that he would try to catch as well too, you know. So for me, it's also just following along those lines and just being very passionate about that, you know. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And those big guy, you know, you mentioned that they get really big. We, I mean, we caught a handful of really big, big, big guy when we were in Madeira in the sunset hours. in the summertime, the sunsets really late. I mean, am I right? I feel like 9 PM was when the sun was setting. So those are some really full days on the water. If you're going the whole, the whole sunlight hours, which we did, but I think most people don't. but, What is, okay, we're gonna wrap it up here pretty soon, but I wanna dive into a little bit with your relationship with Frothy, you know, your dad, who's been passionate about bill fishing his whole life. You have both been fishing the Caribbean and Madeira fisheries for a long time. And what, like as a kid, what is your best memory of fishing with your dad? Whether it be like on the boat with him or when he came back to the dock, like what's your most impressive, like impressionable is what I meant to say, impressionable memory of your dad at your like early ages of life? Like it could, I could even ask like, what's your first fishing memory? That's a good one. Yeah. So I think a lot of my most prized memories with my dad are some of the earlier fishing experiences, some of the first fishing trips we ever been on, you know, my first blue marlin. my first fish, you know. In terms of details of exactly what happened on those days and where we were fishing, you know, I can't really remember, but I definitely do remember, you know, fishing with him, you know, in lakes and stuff when I was a young child and, you know, catching different species of lake fish and as well as going offshore and catching blue marlin and tuna. I think I got my first one when I was nine years old or so. And Katie (50:49.83) That was truly a very good memory with my dad. Fishing here in Madeira, I had some amazing experiences. I think it was in 2015. I was fishing here with my dad on the Pesca Grossa as well too. We had a really amazing day as well too. We were fishing, I think it was similar, it was around four o 'clock in the evening and we were coming in from a long day, no fish. We were just coming in and it was four o 'clock and... We had a big one take on the left, on the right long I believe it was. Take the lure and dump out a bunch of line. Nobody saw the bite. And I was clearing the spread, I cleared in the spread and I pulled in the left short and about a 700 pound fish or so came and ate that lure as well too. So we had two on at the same time. And we caught the 700 pounder and then we got to the other one and. We brought it to the boat and we thought that that one was 1 ,100 pounds. You know, so that was probably the best experience I had with my dad in terms of a good fishing day as well too. So it's interesting to know that the bigger ones do travel in twos and multiple. That is so incredible. That's so cool. And I love, my gosh, I loved it. Like one hit. and then you're clearing the spread. So the speed of the lure changed. There's stuff going on and it enticed another bite from another fish, you know, like already in like going back to your story just a few days ago where you had one hit the short and then go into the long, like it's already aggressively feeding, which might be why a second fish was enticed to come up and hit that right short again. And it's just like, that's so cool. Like it just goes to show that like making changes in the spread can really play a key role in getting these fish to bite. But the fact that you had that memory, like what were you like 14, 15 years old and you have that memory with your dad on a double big fish double. So did you all release that 1100 pounder? Yes, we did. Yeah. Or that big girl. Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yes, we did. That's amazing. That's so cool. That's so cool, Curtis. Katie (53:09.606) Yeah, I love it. And like even, you know, and in a lot of places in the world, especially in the summertime, we have a lot of tournaments going on, especially in the Gulf and Eastern Atlantic. And killing this fish, it's part of it, but it's not always part of it. You know, like releasing fish in the bill fishing world is more often than not what happens. And as fishermen, we're so passionate about the conservation. And I think it's interesting, you know, having this conversation with you, Curtis, you're talking about the seasons, what you're seeing, there's two big fish at the same time. A lot of what we know about these fish, we know from recreational fishermen, charter fishermen that are out there on the water every day. We know their migration patterns a little bit more than we would if we weren't out there on the water every day and every season. I think that's so cool. So Curtis. Congratulations so much on your grander. I'm so proud of you. I'm so excited for you. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you and where they can book a charter with Luna? Absolutely. Thank you very much. I mean, for having me as well. You could find a Madeira Sportfishing or my Facebook, Curtis De Silva on Facebook or Instagram. And yeah, more than happy to. to pick you guys especially if you have anybody that is interested. Are you also running charters in Southern Caribbean? Yeah. So my brother owns and operates 43 Beatrum in Grenada. And I work on him as a mate with him during the season over there. Perfect. So I'll make sure to tag those operations in the description below. So you guys Check those out if you want to book with Curtis. I highly recommend. He's a great time. And Curtis, you know, do you have any last words for the listeners or anything you want to say to close out? No, thank you very much. I appreciate the podcast. It's been great. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. And it's been great. You're so awesome, Curtis. I really appreciate the chat and we'll talk soon. And that's a wrap. If you like this episode, please feel free to share. If you're watching on YouTube, Katie (55:27.59) feel free to like, share, and subscribe. And if you listen to it, do check out the YouTube video because Curtis has shared some good photo and video content to support our conversation. Y 'all don't stop chasing your wild and we'll be seeing you out there.

Summary: In this conversation, Fly Navarro shares his passion for fishing and media. He discusses his background growing up in Palm Beach County and his experiences fishing in the Caribbean and Hawaii. Fly also talks about his transition to freelancing and creating content, as well as his involvement with the Blue Marlin World Cup. This part of the conversation focuses on the Blue Marlin World Cup and the logistics of the tournament. It also discusses the cost of entry, the minimum weight requirement, and the use of certified scales for weighing the fish. The conversation then delves into the emotional moments and the perspective of fishing. The story of the Apex boat is shared, highlighting the power of stories in the fishing community. The importance of people and the connections made through fishing are emphasized. In this conversation, Fly Navarro shares his passion for fishing and the joy he finds in sharing the sport with others. He emphasizes the importance of enjoying the moment and releasing the death grip on the fishing rod. Fly Navarro also discusses the satisfaction he derives from bringing new anglers into the sport and helping them achieve their fishing goals. He encourages young listeners to pursue their passions and not be afraid to take risks. Overall, Fly Navarro's love for fishing and his desire to promote the sport shine through in this conversation.   Takeaways   Fly Navarro is a passionate angler and media creator, constantly seeking new fishing experiences and opportunities. He emphasizes the importance of staying connected through Wi-Fi and using social media to share his fishing adventures and promote the sport. Fly's background includes fishing in the Caribbean and running a boat in Hawaii, where he gained valuable experience and knowledge. He is dedicated to introducing fishing to new people and opening doors for others to enjoy the sport. Enjoy the moment and release the death grip on the fishing rod. Share the joy of fishing with others and help them achieve their fishing goals. Encourage more women and families to participate in fishing. Don't be afraid to pursue your passions and take risks.

Summary Jeremy Higgs, assistant director at the Center for Fisheries and Research Development at the University of Southern Mississippi, discusses his work in fisheries research. He talks about his background and how he fell in love with the research opportunities in the Gulf Coast. Jeremy explains his role at the Research Center and the various projects he manages, including larval shrimp studies, offshore billfish work, bull shark life history study, and oyster reef work. He also discusses the importance of oyster reefs for the ecosystem and the sport fish species that rely on them. The conversation explores the different species of fish studied in fisheries research, including swordfish, marlin, tuna, mahi, wahoo, and more. The researchers discuss the unique characteristics and behaviors of these fish, such as their feeding habits, visual adaptations, and growth rates. They also touch on the importance of studying these rare event species and the collaborative efforts between scientists and anglers. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the handling and donation of fish samples after they are brought back to the dock. Keywords fisheries research, Gulf Coast, larval shrimp, billfish, bull shark, oyster reef, ecosystem, fisheries research, swordfish, marlin, tuna, mahi, wahoo, feeding habits, visual adaptations, growth rates, rare event species, collaborative efforts, handling fish samples, donation Takeaways The Gulf Coast offers a wealth of research opportunities in fisheries, both inshore and offshore. Oyster reefs play a crucial role in the ecosystem, providing habitat and food sources for sport fish species. Jeremy Higgs manages various research projects, including larval shrimp studies, billfish work, bull shark life history study, and oyster reef work. Collaboration with fishermen, scientists, and other institutions is essential in gathering data and understanding fish species. Sampling and analyzing fish specimens at fishing tournaments provide valuable insights into reproductive biology, age determination, and diet composition. Different species of fish, such as swordfish, marlin, tuna, mahi, and wahoo, are studied in fisheries research. These fish have unique characteristics and behaviors, including feeding habits, visual adaptations, and growth rates. Studying rare event species is important for their long-term management and conservation. Collaboration between scientists and anglers is crucial in gathering data and samples for research. After sampling, the fish are handled and donated to organizations for various purposes, such as rehabilitation and feeding birds of prey. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 02:26 Research Opportunities in the Gulf Coast 04:19 The Importance of Oyster Reefs 08:13 Managing Research Projects 15:12 Collaboration in the Scientific Community 32:12 Exploring the Diversity of Fish in Fisheries Research 34:08 Understanding the Feeding Habits and Adaptations of Pelagic Fish 37:57 The Significance of Studying Rare Event Species 41:44 Collaboration between Scientists and Anglers in Fisheries Research 56:38 Handling and Donation of Fish Samples in Fisheries Research   USM Center for Fisheries Research and Development

Jeremy Cox, Captain of the Lolita fishing team and co-founder of the Mongo Offshore Challenge, shares his fishing journey and the success of their recent fishing trip. The conversation covers topics such as Jeremy's fishing background, the Mongo Offshore Challenge, and their recent catch of a 704-pound blue marlin. They discuss the tournament format, the significance of the catch, and the importance of preserving and studying these fish. Jeremy also talks about the excitement of lure fishing and the thrill of anticipation. The conversation highlights the joy of fishing and the special moments shared with family and friends. The conversation revolves around the experience of catching marlin in the Gulf of Mexico and the importance of sustainable fishing practices. The guests discuss their recent catch of a 700-pound marlin and the challenges they faced during the fishing trip. They also touch on the significance of donating the meat from the catch to charities and zoos. The conversation highlights the love and passion marlin fishermen have for the species and their efforts to protect and conserve them. The guests also discuss the science and research that can be conducted using these rare event species. Additionally, they talk about the process of catching live bait in the Gulf of Mexico and the strategies they use to keep the bait fresh and alive. In this conversation, Jeremy from the Lolita Fishing Team discusses the evolution of live baiting in offshore fishing. He explains how the use of live bait tubes has become a common practice and how it has improved the ability to keep bait alive for longer periods. Jeremy also talks about the importance of fresh and frisky bait in attracting fish and shares tips on handling and caring for bait to keep it in optimal condition. He emphasizes the significance of structure, such as oil rigs, in creating fish aggregating devices (FADs) and attracting a variety of fish species. Jeremy also mentions the potential for future expansion of the Mongo Offshore Tournament to the East Coast and internationally.   Mongo Offshore Challenge East Coast Registration https://www.reeltimeapps.com/live/tournaments/2024-mongo-offshore-east-coast/register   Mongo App: Iphone: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/mongo-offshore-challenge/id1516755470 Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.reeltimeapps.mongo&pcampaignid=web_share   Keywords   fishing, blue marlin, tournament, Mongo Offshore Challenge, Gulf of Mexico, Lolita fishing team, catch, celebration, preservation, marlin, Gulf of Mexico, sustainable fishing, catch and release, fishing tournaments, conservation, live bait, tuna tubes, live baiting, offshore fishing, bait tubes, fresh bait, frisky bait, handling bait, oil rigs, fish aggregating devices, FADs, structure, Mongo Offshore Tournament   Takeaways   Jeremy Cox shares his fishing journey and the success of their recent fishing trip The Mongo Offshore Challenge is a season-long tournament that awards the biggest fish caught in various categories The Lolita fishing team caught a 704-pound blue marlin during the Hurricane Open tournament The catch was celebrated with family and friends, and the fish was donated to science for research purposes Lure fishing provides a unique thrill and anticipation for anglers Preserving and studying these fish is important for understanding their reproduction and population Marlin fishermen are passionate about the species and work towards their conservation and sustainability. Donating the meat from caught marlin to charities and zoos is a way to reduce waste and benefit the community. Catching live bait in the Gulf of Mexico can be challenging, especially during the day when the bait goes deep. Tuna tubes are used to keep live bait fresh and alive during fishing trips. The conversation highlights the importance of responsible fishing practices and the role of fishermen in scientific research and data collection. Live baiting has evolved over the years, with the use of live bait tubes becoming a common practice in offshore fishing. Fresh and frisky bait is essential in attracting fish, and there are techniques to handle and care for bait to keep it in optimal condition. Oil rigs serve as fish aggregating devices (FADs) by providing structure and attracting a variety of fish species. The Mongo Offshore Tournament is a popular fishing tournament that focuses on the Gulf of Mexico, but there are plans to expand to the East Coast and potentially internationally. Transcript: Katie (00:00.206) In today's episode, I'm sitting down with Captain Jeremy Cox as we dive into the Gulf of Mexico blue marlin fishery with big fish stories, tips on how to handle and maximize the health of your bait and why the oil rigs play such a valuable role in the Gulf of Mexico ecosystem. Katie (00:27.886) Welcome to the KDC Sawyer podcast. I'm your host Katie. And today I'm sitting with the captain of the Lolita fishing team. He's also the co -founder of the Mongo Offshore Challenge. Jeremy Cox, thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me today. No problem. Thank you so much for having us. It's my pleasure. Well, we've been talking about doing this for a long time and I'm really glad it worked out the way it did because you guys just had a heck of a fishing trip out of Grand Isle, Louisiana last week, which I really want to get into you guys. Spoiler alert. They caught a 704 pound blue Marlin, but Jeremy, tell us a little bit about you. Where are you from? What's your fishing experience and how did you get to where you are today? so, let's see. I'm, I was born in Maryland. Actually, my, my family's from Maryland. move my. family moved us to Pensacola, Florida back in the early 80s. And so I grew up in Florida. I was raised in Florida. I think I was two years old when we moved to Florida, Pensacola. And man, first fishing memory is like four years old. My brother, JD, which is also co -founder of the Mongo, he's my older brother by seven years. He took me fishing in a lake behind, you know, in our neighborhood behind our lake. caught a bass like the first trip and I was hooked. I was like man this is the thing now I probably pestered him every day after that can we go fishing can we go fishing you know we're going fishing and so that progressed into an addiction of fishing and my mom took me on a fishing charter when I was 10 years old out of Ocean City Maryland and I saw the mate you know back there with us and you know this guy driving the boat which was you know I learned was a captain and and we caught some tuna and I was like, these guys do this for a living? And my mom's like, yeah, this is what they do, you know? And I was like, man, I want to do that when I grow up. So my brother had a baseball scholarship. He went off to college and played baseball and moved to Birmingham, Alabama. And me and him always talked about owning our charter boat. So I got into the fishing industry. Like my first job was first fishing related jobs working at a place called Boaters World. They're out of business now, but. Katie (02:50.766) very like West Marine, it was around for years and it was a big box store for marine supplies and marine sales. So I worked there and figured that'd be a good opportunity to meet other fishermen. So long story short, met other captains and landed a mate job and started mating and me and my brother, that's what we were gonna pursue is our own charter boat career. And you know, I'm skipping a lot of stuff, but Hurricane Ivan hit in 2004 and sort of... hit us back to reality. It's like, man, we saw all these charter boats lose their whole livelihood with their boats getting wrecked and the whole season sort of thrown out the door, at least in our little town. And we're like, maybe that's not the smartest idea for us. We didn't have a lot of money anyway. We wanted to get in those charter boat things. I mean, so I had a lot of friends in the private industry. And we were charter fishing. We were mating and captain. By that time, JD moved down to Pensacola. And we were both mating on different boats. And I did some captain work. started in the private sector. So I was like, man, that's probably the better route, more secure, you know, and then it's, you know, you got somebody else paying for everything and you get paid to go fishing, paid to kick, you know, a lot more waxing and toilet fixing than fishing, but yeah, it's all part of the, all part of it. Yeah. So, but it's awesome. So, you know, that's, that's how I got into the captain, you know, and in that whole time, you know, I was doing sales, you know, I worked for a Long time I worked for a distributor. We sold fish and tackle to tackle stores. And then I was a tackle sales rep for a while. We represented a dial and play Jake and other other brands. And I did that for collectively for about 12 years while I was doing captain work on the side in the private world. I had an orange beach, Alabama and Pensacola, Florida, Destin, Florida. But now currently I run the Lolita to 72 foot Viking out of Destin, Florida. and been working for this family for this is the ninth summer. Great family. They're awesome. Yeah, we're like fam. They treat me to treat us like family and just a great, great time. And yeah, this weekend. So we, we called the art person. Yeah. no, no, no. I haven't interrupted you. Sorry guys. We're not there yet. We're not there yet. No, that's so cool. So are you out of Orange Beach now? Are you based out of Orange Beach now? I'm. Katie (05:15.47) We keep the boat Lolita, we keep it behind Bo Shamps and Destin. That's where we keep the boat year round. That's right, you just said that. No, yeah, we come to Orange Beach a lot. We're sort of a traveling boat in the summertime, so we're rarely home during the summer, but the wintertime's fall through spring, we're parked behind Bo Shamps. We spend a good amount of time in Grand Isle, Louisiana. The owners have a camp there in Grand Isle. Nice. Yeah, so we get to spend, well now it's about two months a year out of Grand Isle. a month in the spring. What two months is that? So we're just getting off of this month. So it's a March, you know, late March to well, actually this year it was early April through early May. You know, we're home in Orange Beach now for some work. So about a month, you know, in the late spring and then a month in a late summer, we used to go there late July and stay through late August. Yeah, it's really good fishing over there that time of year. Yeah. Are you, out of Grand Isle, are you... doing a lot of tuna fishing as well as blue marlin fishing. Correct. Yes, they love to catch tuna and blue marlin, that's pretty much it. That's all they would like to get. We do very little bottom fishing. It's primarily tuna and marlin fishing, which is... I mean, the fishing up there in the northern Gulf for those two species is incredible. And the fact that you've, I mean, you essentially grew up for the most part fishing the northern Gulf of Mexico, right? That's right. That's cool because I'm from Texas, right? That's where I claim as my hometown. But I, my Gulf of Mexico fishing experience is extremely limited. So, I have so many questions for you and I'm really excited to have a Gulf guy on the podcast. we've had South Florida, we've had Kona and now here we go into the Gulf and we're right in that tournament season. Now, do you want to tell me a little bit about the Mongo Offshore Challenge? It's a 153 day. regional challenge, right? That's right. So yeah, so me and my brother was involved in this private world of fishing and tournament fishing. I think our first tournament we fished together was in 2007 on a boat called the Sunset. I fished several tournaments in like 2004, 2005, but JD was able to move down from Birmingham, get out of, he was in natural disaster work as well. And anyway, he, Katie (07:34.382) He was able to fish with me in 2007, our first tournament together on a boat called Sunset. We fished Biloxi and we won it. First tournament we fished together. my gosh. What'd you win it with? 531 Blue Marlin. Yeah, and it caught on the first morning of the first hour of the first morning. is like totally spoiled. Like JD's like, I like this tournament fishing stuff. This is pretty awesome. Yeah. It's always, it doesn't always work out like that, but that was really special. We did it with our best friend and mentor, Matt Dunn, which he's not really in the, in the sport fishing game anymore. He switched over to yacht world and he's doing, you know, he works for, you know, runs a big yachty yacht now, but, Man, so we made a lot of memories fishing. We had a really good run there with him for about six or seven years. Did really well in the golf circuit. And that was right when live baiting was sort of getting really, really popular. We were primarily trollers on that boat, but yeah, that was cool. So. What do you mean primarily trawlers like lures? Yeah, lures. We were, we were lure fishing. We still actually are passionate. I don't know that I would have fell in love with blue marlin fishing if I would have started out just sitting soaking live baits. it's something about the anticipation of rigging the night before the days before. And you got your lures out and you're re -skirting and putting new hook sets on. You're like, maybe that's going to be this color. You know, you got, you know, we need more trawlers. We need more spiked lures. Yeah, you know, going to the tackle store and like, man, we got to buy this one. This is the one. man, look at the head. You know, it's just, I don't know, something about that anticipation and like, you know, the what if they eat this one? yeah, they should eat this one. It's this color. look, it's a dolphin color. We got to match the hatch. I mean, all that stuff is just like fun, you know, rather than feeding them what they eat all day long. Of course they're going to eat a tuna. Of course they're going to eat it. Yeah. It's like, you know, we do it and it works. Katie (09:36.782) We have to do it in time efficient up here. You have to live bait to be consistent. But it's, you know, you're not really tricking them anymore. You know, when you're lure fishing, it feels like, man, it's like bass fishing. I'd much rather bass fish with a spinner bait or a plastic worm than throwing a live shiner out there. They're going to eat a live shiner, but it's just something special about it. And so yeah, it's definitely progressed. We came in when it was... And the northern golf is mainly lure and, you know, in natural baits, you know, you're pulling islander, you know, about who combos is, you know, everybody still pulls and then they work 100%. They work. And that's just, I don't know, something special about, about that. And if we were started out live baiting, I don't know that I would have had the same excitement about it. Now we sort of mix it up a little bit. We do some trolling and we do a lot of live baiting. it's the primarily way we fish up here. We're very, very spoiled. with this Northern Gulf fishery with these old rigs. I mean, you have giant fads everywhere. So they hold fish. We're going to go a little off topic for a minute because I have a lot of questions for you. No, this is great. I love it. You're giving me great content. So in that tournament, so we won that tournament. I'll go back to the Mongo. Obviously, it's why you have us on here. But us tournament fishing, we saw the progress and we're on fast boats. And then we started running the Lolita. I started running that in 2016, and it was a slow Hatteras, a 23 knot Hatteras. And we also, when we first started fishing, there's a lot of express boats. In the early 2000s, in these big weekend tournaments in golf, there's a lot of smaller express boats. There's a lot of slower, you know, Bartrams and Hatteras. And everybody's competing. But as the fleet, you know, got more technologically advanced and bigger horsepower engines. It's a speed race now, so whoever has the fastest boat has more fishing time. And it's a huge, huge deal. We're running 150 to 250 miles one way. So if you're doing that, you know, and you're getting there two, three hours before everybody else, or at least before the slow boats, the slow boats don't really have a chance, you know, unless you get lucky and run over one. So we were like, man, it'd be awesome if there was a tournament that had like a, that would level the playing field that would give them. Katie (11:54.83) Same amount of time for everybody. Doesn't matter how fast you are, how slow you are. If you have a big giant Viking or a little center console, everybody's on a level playing field. And so that's how that progressed, that birth, that idea of like, man, all right, let's just have a season long event and put the lines in. Whenever you leave the dock, you're in the tournament from May 1st to September 30th. So if you can, and we're all about the big fish, Mongo meaning huge. So if you catch a giant fish. between May 1st and September 30th, you can win it. And we count your weights in tournaments, and we count your weights on fun fishing trips. We set up these weigh stations all over the Gulf, and you can go in anywhere. We have 20 weigh stations in the Gulf of Mexico from all the way in South Texas all the way to Naples, Florida. So you go in and weigh your fish, and if you have the biggest fish at the end of the season, you win the pot. Blue Marlin, Swordfish, Tuna, Dolphin, and Wahoo. So yeah, it's really, really fun. We started it five years ago. It had 66 teams that first year and this year. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And COVID year too, which is crazy. That's a whole nother story. But yeah, our first year we had 66 teams. We have a bit of a network. We've been around, we know a lot of guys. So we were able to call up a lot of captains like, what do you think about this format? Would you fish it? And they're like, yeah, that's awesome. Heck yeah, man. Because you always catch your biggest fish on your fun trips anyway. Yeah. Yeah, typically. I mean, you're going out there for a million dollar tournament and you catch the big one the day before practicing, you know, so now we can celebrate that fish and reward, you know, whoever catches the bigger ones, all kinds of cool things for that format that makes it neat. But yeah, so so that's where it came from. And then now this year is our fifth year we've had a we have 150 teams and over half a million dollars in the pot. That's crazy in the Gulf of Mexico because you guys have branched out to other fisheries now, right? That's right. So we started the East Coast three years ago. This is our third season in the East Coast. We're trying to grow that East Coast. We don't have the network that we have in the Gulf because we grew up in the Gulf. We know everybody. So we're working on growing that network over there, getting some key individuals, key captains on board. But there's already, and registration is still open for the East Coast until June 30th. So teams. Katie (14:12.782) fishing from Cape Cod all the way down to Florida can register for the Mongo up until June 30th and pick which category you want to get in. You don't have to get in swordfish if you don't, if you're not a sword fisherman, just get into mahi or whatever you're fishing for. What's the registration fee? So it's alacarte. So each, each one's different. So the mahi and the wahoo are 500 a piece for the season. That's nothing. You know, we burn in that much an hour out of some of these boats and fuel. So, and then a swordfish is 15, excuse me. Swordfish is a thousand for the season, for the season. yellowfin and big eye are a thousand a piece for the season. And then blue marlin is 2 ,500 for the season. So you'll, if you want to get in all categories, like 6 ,500 bucks for the board. Yeah. And you're in from every time your boat leaves the dock, whether you're fishing two times a year or a hundred times a year, you're, you're in there. And what did the winner of the Gulf of Mexico last year make and what did they weigh on blue marlin? I think their payday was like 130 ,000 last year and it was a 727 pound blue marlin caught in the bluxy tournament. So he won two tournaments with one fish. I love it. I love that. Yeah. A boat called the salt shaker with Captain Dennis Bennett. And I remember that. Believe it or not, they also won the mahi. They caught the mahi in the ECBC tournament and won like another 50 grand with the mahi. So they really cashed in last year. That's so sick. And their mahi was 60 pounds, 59 .9 pounds, 60 pound mahi in the Gulf of Mexico. It was totally unheard of. I haven't seen a 60 pounder. That is massive. I haven't seen a 50 pounder in the Gulf in years. The only fish I've seen that big was in like Costa Rica, Central Pacific. Panama. That's, that's where I've seen the mahi get that even close to that big. But again, my golf experience is pretty limited. Sure. One thing is different, you know, Mongo, golf on that a minute, but we have very big minimums. So there's not a whole lot of fish weighed in the Mongo throughout the season. One, it's a winner take all. So once something huge is on the board, you're not going to weigh in anything smaller anymore. And then our limits are high. Like mahi has got to be 40 pounds to even qualify. Katie (16:31.278) Wahoo's 60 pounds, Yellowfin's 140 pounds. Blue Marlin's 118 inches. Which is like the federal, you guys, the federal minimum is 99 inches. And a lot of tournaments go 112 inches. So it's definitely progressed over the years. Typically last year was 110 for all the tournaments and this last weekend was 112 for this last weekend. Yeah, because people are going in figuring them out and they're starting to weigh in more and more and more. So they're trying to inch those links up to not take so many of them. And that's one reason we wanted to just pay one place. You know, one, we just wanted to award the biggest fish of the season. And then two, we didn't want to kill a bunch of extra ones. And then typically the blue morn... Actually, I'm trying to think, other than the first year in the Mongo... Every other blue marlin has been caught, or the winner was caught in another tournament. So the first year, the first year was a state record fish caught the day after the, the world cup on July 5th. They were out there for the world cup. They stayed out another day, caught this giant fish. If they would have called in the world cup, they would have won a whole lot more money. Obviously fly usually has, I don't know, well over a million dollars in that, in that world cup pot. But they ended up winning, I think they won like 90 grand or something like that extra. Yeah, that they were. I mean, how cool that you guys are giving that opportunity, you know, like I Drake when we were in Madeira, we saw a real big fish on July 3rd and didn't see it again. But it's just, you know, it's funny how they dance around that date. I feel like those sightings really, really go around the 4th of July. If you guys are wondering what we're talking about, the World Cup is a tournament that's around the world based on your specific time zone on the 4th of July. and we'll have Fly Navarro on for a podcast coming into that. So stay posted. But Jeremy, I guess natural integration. Tell us about your fish this last week. So this last week in the Lolita, the boat I worked for, my owners are gracious enough to get in. They know we put the tournament on. They're totally supportive and supporting of it. It's me, my brother JD and my best friend, Brian Johnson. We were the founders of the Mongo and we also all three work on the Lolita. Katie (18:56.366) So my brother's a mate and Brian comes on for tournaments and it's been just a great team. We all get along so well. And so they're always gracious enough to, hey, we'll get into, you know, we never twist our arm or nothing. They like the idea, they like the format. And so they've got in every year and we've never weighed in on qualifying fish during that time for the Mongo. But this year, our first, actually it's our second trip of the season, but our first tournament of the year. fishing the hurricane open out of Grand Isle, Louisiana this past weekend. And we catch a 704 pounder, which is a nice one. It's 122 inches. It's our biggest one yet. And man, we are so ecstatic. Congratulations. It was money or no money. It's actually sort of special for my owners and my owner's family because they've had a camp on Grand Isle, Louisiana for they call it a camp. It's a beach house and it's nice beach house now, but. It was camp since the 50s, late 50s. This family has had many traditions of going down there and spending time together every summer. And it's been, you know, it's something where everybody can go and be around each other. And it's, they're a really close knit family anyway. And they fish the tarpaulios and fish some other things over the years, but they've never weighed anything huge there in Grand Isle. So this has always been like a dream of theirs. And to do it in Grand Isle just makes it that much more special. We didn't. Like I said, we want some money, but it wasn't about the money. It was about that memory that they got to make with their family members. And they brought their 90 year old grandfather down here to celebrate with us. And he's, you know, yeah, his wife was Lolita. She passed away, but that's had to name the boat after. So he was able to come down and celebrate. And it was just so special. It was really, really cool. And we're able to, you know, not only celebrate that fish and won some money with that fish and. Now we're on the board with the Mongo, which, you know, extra special for me, JD and Brian. I mean, it's really, really cool to be able to do that. But, but you reached out to us and now we were able to donate that fish to science, which is awesome. And we also flayed up a bunch of the meat. Everybody's sharing the meat. We actually, my brother's smoking some up, making some fish dip out of it. Yes. Smoked blue marlin. That's the way to do it. Yep. We got some, some art being made from it. you know, some, the bill and the tail and some prints. And so it's. Katie (21:19.758) It's not a wasted fish, it's a celebrated fish. And now we got, we had kids down there taking pictures with it. It's just inspiring kids. I mean kids, the thing is, is like what a lot of people don't realize is when these fish are brought back to the dock, like the kids that see it, it's such a lasting impression. Because I mean, even for the adults that have never seen anything like that, like to see a creature from the ocean, a fish from the ocean of that size and magnitude and what it takes. to bring something like that in and what type of possibilities there are out there. It just opens so many doors. And I'm really, I was really stoked when I reached out to you, you were all on board about the donating. And next, you guys, the next podcast is gonna be Jeremy Higgs over at the University of Southern Mississippi. And that's exactly who these samples are going to. So Jeremy, I had you like. what we cut the head and we kept some of the innards and we're going to get to age that fish and, and learn a lot about the reproduction and the phases of the fish. So it's blue marlin are females when they're of that size and they're going to get to do reproductive histology on there and we're going to learn a lot about it. And I just think it's so cool that you guys were on board and just sharing that on this podcast is so important because you know, when these fish are brought in, there's so much more that can be done with them than even just. you know, taking the tournament win. Like you said, I love that you're showcasing the celebration of that life. Tell us a story about catching the fish. Like what did it eat? And, yeah, so, we fished some, a very popular area called, we call it the ghetto. it's just, some shallow, well, it's not shallow. It's, it's close to land rigs. I guess you could say it's a, it's a rig that are the floating rigs that are closest to the Alabama line. We're fishing out of Louisiana, but everybody knows the ghetto. If you fish in the northern Gulf Coast, you know it's the ghetto. It's the Rampowl and Petronas and Marlin Rig and Horn Mountain. It's these rigs that's been there for years and years and years. Probably some of the early rigs that were floaters are the ghetto. And they've added on to them. And we got hundreds of rigs that we could choose from. So, ghetto's in the shallower waters. It's about 3 ,000 feet and it's working its way up the bank. And, Katie (23:37.07) I saw some good current in there, like a good eddy being built. We use Hilton's to do our research before we go to figure out exactly what the current's doing, the temperature's doing, and all that. We saw this eddy being formed in there, and I was like, man, it's got some good water pushing in there. Also, Bluefin was still open, so if we accidentally happened to catch one, it wasn't closed yet. It's like, all right, if we get one, we could probably take her home if she ends up. Accidentally, you know eating one of our live baits that we use for blue marlin which they do typically this time of year And then there's huge tune in that area this time of year had some reports today before Several boats catching actually one boat called a 200 pounder another boat called 185 pounder all in this area. Yep And then several boats have caught blue marlin over the last couple days. So I was like, all right, let's go in there most of the fleet's gonna go to greens Canyon another area south of Louisiana and Maybe it won't be as so many boats over there. Anyway, we made the call. Go over there. And the bait's a little hard to catch, a little concern. As we get there, the bait's really, really deep. Typically in the daytime, we're trolling around the rigs, try to catch live bait first to fill up our tubes. At nighttime, you're jigging, using butterfly jigs and whatnot around the oil rigs. They all come to the lights and usually up shallower. And you can jig them all night, fill up your tubes. But in the daytime, you've got to be a little creative and catch them on the troll. There was a lot of different techniques guys used, but they were really deep, really hard to catch. So we were like, all right, at least to the rigs that we stopped at. So we switched over to trolling. That first day we're trolling, nothing. We got to watch another boat that was live baiting catch a couple of fish. So we're like, all right, well, there's fish around. We'll load the tubes tonight and we'll start in the morning and do some live baiting. So we did that. We filled up our tubes at night at a rig and then pulled over to our first stop. It was a drill ship and first bait in the water. It was a porpoise. Porpoise came up and ate our bait and they just, they're so smart. Yeah. They hated this fisherman. They're beautiful, awesome creatures, but they came up. Yeah. You're fishing. Yeah. You don't want when they're eating your bait. They're amazing how they eat it too. They missed the hook. They know where the hook is. They bite it right behind and they just like suck out everything. You just, all you have left on your, on your hook is the head of your bait. And they did that like first, first bait in. Katie (25:57.678) Corpus and I'm marking someone's sonar and like these all look like porpoise to me. So let's let's just go. So we went three miles away to the next rig and there's nobody there. There was like four boats or five boats fishing with us at that first one. So there's multiple reasons why I wanted to leave. So we lit we left one over there and there's only other one ended up being one other boat fishing with us there and marked a couple in the sonar. We hooked one fish, jumped them off within like two minutes. It was a hindsight it was a male. It was a smaller fish. And we found that over the years that that'll happen a whole lot. You'll catch them. You'll catch a small one and you go back and catch the big one or you'll catch the big one and you go back and catch a small one. It seems like they run together this time of year. It's typical to find a big fish with a small fish or multiple. I'm so curious to find out if your fish was spawning. Multiple small fish. A lot of times. So anyway, I marked one, we hooked that one, lost it, put the baits back out, and I saw another mark going over to the rig. So we were using Omniso Nars. Actually, I'm using an MAQ. I love it. It's awesome. So we go over to the rig, put the baits out, drag it over top of it, and I lose the mark. I can't find it. And a lot of times that means they're coming up about to eat your bait. You know, you're in your prop watch or whatnot. Nothing. About five minutes goes by, I mark something else. up ahead of me so we pulled the boat up about maybe a football field's length and there she is. She eats the bait immediately, starts dumping it. What you have like a blackfin or bonita? Yep, that morning all we could call it was blackfin. A little football size maybe about that big. And yeah, Aida immediately dumped a bunch of line. We're using 130 class reels with 130 pound line on there. We do have backing and she... My angler gets in there, Jordan Womack, he fights it for two hours straight. A hot, hard fight. Not a whole lot of jumping, but just a ton of dogging, ton of left and right and down sea, up sea. The fish was crazy. Really, really strong fish. We got one look at it, like two jumps. There's a video we just put up there on Instagram yesterday. You can see the only two jumps. That's the only two times she came out of the water. And she doesn't really look that big in that video. She's pretty far away. And, Katie (28:17.134) We see it's a solid fish, but we get the measurement stick out, like, all right, it might be 112, we'll see. And then two hours into the fight after, he's like, all right, this fish is super strong. It's big. And then she sounds. Sounds all the way down to the bottom, way back into the backing. We're probably a thousand feet out of line in our angler's life. You guys, sounding is when, and correct me if I'm wrong, Jeremy, but sounding is when that fish goes essentially straight up and down and it's deep. Like it's just deep. A lot of times when they do that, we try to, captains call a lot of big blue marlin that try to tag and release them. You're trying to keep them up on top because the worst thing you want is from the sound because they'll die. Typically when they sound that deep, they're stroking out, they're giving out. That's all. If you keep them up top, you can usually tag them really quick and release them and be done. So she sounded and we're like, man, we're in for the long haul now. We're already two hours in, which is a long time. Yeah, usually tagging these fish. If we're tagging the fish, even the big ones, you can get them in 30 minutes, 45 minutes an hour. But anyway, sort of all like defeated after that point. my goodness, we're two hours in, we haven't really saw her again. She's sounded and way back into the backing, our angler is just like totally gassed. He's puking, he's puking all over himself. He's pale in the face. He's like a bodybuilder guy. His arms are shaking, his legs are shaking. So we've got to get him dehydrated, get him cooled down, pouring water all over him. And then the family's just totally around him. The team's just around, like, you're not quitting. You're staying in this. You're going to get this fish. Just totally positive talking, because he's like, I don't know if I can get this thing anymore. Yeah. I mean, he's done his thing. Yeah. So in that. When they do that, and she's done fighting, like she sounds and then it's done, done taking more line. We go to full drag and at that process you got to plane them up. You got to, you know, you're pulling forward, getting a little bit of scope in the line where the line starts coming up a little bit and you're backing down really hard, reeling that slack and then doing it again. So basically what your rod was doing before, the boat's doing now. So the boat's pulling up and then you're reeling down. You're pulling up, reeling down about 40, 50 feet at a time. So it takes another three hours to get that fish. Katie (30:32.782) Hold on, I want to pause you real quick. I really like that you brought up the planing and how it's done because a handful of times when we've been fishing, it's just a really important skill for captains, crews, and anglers to know. A lot of times it can even potentially save a fish. If you have a fish that gets tail wrapped early on in a fight and you're not going to be able to get its head turned. So tail wrapped is when the line's wrapped around the tail of the fish. And if you can't get its head turned, a lot of times that fish is just gonna be swimming down. But if you recognize it early on, if the angler and the captain recognize it early on, you guys can start planing that fish up and get it up to the boat before it dies. Because if it's tail wrapped and it gets pulled backwards for too long, it's gonna asphyxiate because it can't breathe. moving backwards. So planing is a really, really important skill in the field of ethical angling. And then of course, in situations like these where, where you have a deep fish that's just gone. And I mean, also when they're that big, it's really interesting, Jeremy, because when they're that big, it's almost like they can't fight as long as the smaller ones. Like, do you think that that plays a key, like a role in it? And what about the like, how, how warm was the water? I'm just curious. 77. That's pretty cool actually for Northern Gulf. Yeah. It'll warm up. I'm surprised. Yeah. It's, it's, it's been cut off from the loop current that area. So if you go down in greens, it's probably 79 now, somewhere around there. the loop current is probably 80, but you know, this current is down there in greens is probably that, but up, up where we're fishing is still a little cooler because it's sort of been cut off. it's getting most of its water from out in the canyon out to the east of it. And that water is all 76, 77. Is that pretty regular with the seasons? Sometimes that loop current, you look on Hilton's and watch it come up. It'll come up from the Yucatan, make a hard ride over towards Tampa and loop back down. And then off of that northern part, you'll get eddies that'll curl up into that Louisiana, Alabama area. And those eddies are bringing in that nice fresh nutrients that you want. You want that counterclockwise eddy that brings up fish, brings up all the nutrients from the bottom. And you got to... Katie (32:50.926) Clockwise, it's pushing everything down. Altimeter's down and it seems like everything's deeper. But yeah, this time of year, it'll be all sort of weird and squirrely. We always like to fish after a really big storm, like a big south pushing storm. A lot of south wind, southeast wind. Sort of like the pocket and people are familiar with Chubb and down there. Anytime you've got something pushing everything into the shallow water, it seems to get better in there. And that near that shallower water just sort of stacks everything up. So we like doing that. but it was, you know, the, anyway, there's fish in there. There's fish everywhere. People caught fish this weekend all over the place. We were just sort of right place, right time. And then we're capitalized once we did get that fish on, everybody worked together as a good team. And, you know, we didn't make any mistakes. If we would have made a mistake, we would have lost that fish. Cause once we got that fish in the hook was hooked outside end, which is. already hard, you know, you lose them right at the beginning. It's probably when he chased that circle hook, when he was, when he was chasing that blackfin, that blackfin probably swirled around his head weird, got him somehow. And then that hook was hooked to the outside end. So when he came in, you could grab the hook and it just went, doop, it like barely came out. And then we had like two wraps, we had like two wraps around the tail that probably saved us, you know, saved that fish, you know, saved us getting that fish. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because if it would have been hooked outside in and he sounded and we'd just been pulling him up like this, it would eventually just work this pulled it out because it just and then she would have died in vain. Yeah. And then it starts with ater and nobody got to celebrate. Yeah. All that. So yeah, it was really special the way it worked out. So many so many things worked in its way. It was a blessing for sure. Were y 'all surprised when she came? when y 'all got her up and she was 122 inches long? Yes, well, actually she popped up way far away. So, you know, we're playing in and once you get them up, you're playing in a dead fish up from that deep. Once you get up to like 200 feet above that thermocline, they'll just pop up and she popped up. Interesting. Yeah, she popped up probably 200 feet away. And so when she popped up tail first, we probably we knew that she was probably tail wrapped, but we didn't know it popped up tail wrap. Our hearts sort of sank. man, I hope she ain't like a 400 pounder, you know. Katie (35:07.438) come up tail up tail up. And then we, you know, now this is all sort of sucks, you know, we don't, we don't win nothing. And you know, we just killed a smaller fish. So she popped up tail up and we saw the tail sticking out of the water and we're getting back and down, back and down to the fish that JD can grab the leader, pull her over and the tail gets bigger and she gets longer. And we're like, okay, all right. And then JD gets her boat side and we're like, holy moly. Nobody says anything to each other until we, until we get her, you can watch that video. We're getting her in a boat. Brian and Ryan, the owner, start pulling her to boat and they get her in and then everybody's like, whoa. You know, we didn't want to say anything. Exhale. Yeah, exhale. And then we measured her. Yeah, we knew she was big and then we measured her and now she's a mongo. You know, now she's over one eighteen. We're like, yeah, we're high five. And it was so awesome. It was very, very special. We've killed it. We've killed a fish with these owners a few years ago, but it wasn't a mongo. It was like a five forty or five. 30 or something like that we caught in Blocsie. Which length was approximately? It was like 112, 113 I think was the length. Yeah you guys 118 is a really damn big fish. Yeah. Like it's a big fish. A special fish. In 122. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And I, in the video, I mean it looked like you guys didn't even have a flying gaff out. Like you all just had your tuna gaff. Yeah we did have a flyer out. We decided we didn't need it once we got boat sided and we just stick it. regular stick gaff in there, straight gaff. And we did that and then we'd just get a new surround her, around her bill and then we were able to sort of guide her in that way. But yeah, it worked out really, really good that way. It was cool. It was very, very special fish. And then now it's like the dilemma of, all right, did we stay out here? The fishing's good. We ain't got a tuna yet. We came out here for a big tuna too. And we made the decision of going on in. So we... because we're in the Mongo. Because now we're gonna lose, we didn't want to lose any weight. And we wanted to explain how you lose weight. So a lot of times on the deck, they'll just lose weight. They're losing fluids the whole time, blood and other things. And we didn't have that many holes in her, but we had a couple of holes in her. A lot of times they'll just lose weight sitting on the deck. And it kept on going through our minds like, man, if she is a Mongo, she's still got, we got all season for 88 teams to try to beat her. Katie (37:30.414) But if we lose by like two or three pounds, we're going to be hitting ourselves in the face for not taking it. It's only three hours away to the weigh station. So it's a fast boat. So we go. And our plans are to come out either later that evening or that night and try to get a tuna. And we get in. We have a couple of mechanical issues I'm a little nervous about. So we decide not to go out. We just hung her up. We're 700 pounds. We're all having a great time. to see if somebody else can beat her. So nobody else beat her and we won that weekend tournament, which we're super excited about. And then, congratulations. See what happens in the market. Now it gives us a little bit later. You know, it was the 118 everybody was shooting for now it's a 700 pounder set by shooting for. So what is that? I don't know. It could be a 118, a really fat one, but typically probably, you know, that probably is going to save a few fish of being killed is in our thoughts, unless it's in a weekend tournament, you know, if it's on a fun trip, they're going to think twice about killing if it's. you know, 600 pound or something like that. So, yeah, that's cool. Which is really cool. Yeah. Question, what are some like when you're bringing a fish back to the dock and you want to make sure that it's not losing weight, like what are, what are ways that you can help mitigate that? Like, do you have any techniques that you or tips that you want to share? Yeah. So, at least knowledge that I've learned from, from other captains is, we haven't done it yet on. on length, but to keep length you want to keep them wet. Not necessarily cold, but wet to keep their length. So a lot of weekend tournaments, it might be 110 and you have 112 sitting on the deck. Two days later, that thing could be 110, you know, or 109. They could lose an inch or two pretty easily. And there's plenty of stories of guys catching a legal fish and getting back to dock and it's not legal anymore. So that's a bummer. So a lot of captains... found that you keep them wet with towels and that'll keep their length. Not sure about the way that is. Yeah. Is like their skin will shrink up. That skin is so it's very similar to Wahoo skin. Right. And even though the scales are different, very different, but it'll like it'll shrink up as it dries. So keeping them wet will keep them. There's like a lot of like. Katie (39:54.99) ends and outs of it, right? Like I just, okay. So just to clear the air here, I haven't been a really around fisheries that kill fish. you know, my blue Marlin, my predominant blue Marlin experience was in the fat fishery of Costa Rica, which is all catch and release because they're small fish. And then, we were fishing in Madeira for the big one, but we never saw her. So I've heard a lot of stories and like, of fish like coming back to the dock and people saying they were stretched, fish coming back to the dock, people saying that they, you know, put water in their bellies or whatever. what, like there's, there's definitely things you can and cannot do to keep these fish the way they should be as well as like the word mutilation. Can you, can you expand on that for me? Yeah. So in our tournament, in the Mongo, we def on a weekend tournaments. So say you catch your fish in a weekend, we defer to that tournament. So if it's dequeued in that weekend tournament, it's dequeued in the Mongo. If it counts, it counts. In our rules, we do Spirit of IGFA. So mutilated fish are not counted. Mutilation is something that impairs its ability to fight, its ability to swim. So if you back over it a little too hard and chop its tail off or chop something up with your propellers, it's not going to count. It's part of the game. It's shark bit. It's not going to count. We accept cookie cutter sharks because that could have been done months or years ago. Cookie cutter sharks will take like a little round bite out. You'll catch a swordfish and it'll have several of them in there a lot of times as cookie cutter sharks. So we'll accept those, but yeah, if it's a five tiger or something on the way up, then we don't count that. We count that as a mutilated fish. Unless that tournament that you're fishing in accepts it. then we'll count it because we defer to them. But yeah, I mean, you know, people have, yeah, we hear those stories too. I mean, same thing in the freshwater world, people putting leads in their stomachs and, you know, all kinds of stuff to try to win. So we, in the Mongo, we have some checks and balances in there. Sometimes we have the ability to cut that fish open at the dock and check its innards. And we have to have two witnesses that weren't on the boat to witness you weigh that fish. And... Katie (42:19.758) lie detector test for the winners. So we have some things built in to try to keep the confidence high that somebody isn't going to cheat. And a lot of it's peer enforced. If you're in this private industry of sport fishing and you're caught cheating, you go find another career. Yeah, you're not going to get another job. After your black eye, bloody nose heals, go find another job. you don't want to, nobody's going to accept you if you get caught cheating. So it's a lot of it is peer enforced, at least that fear of, you know, so hoping, you know, somebody that didn't want to go on their morals, there's some fear involved as well of getting caught cheating. So, you know, not saying people don't try, but we, we, we try to build some safe, some safe holds in there to keep people from doing it, at least thinking twice. Yeah, that's great. But yeah, and we like to keep them cold. You know, if they're big, big enough fish to weigh, the weigh in, we want to, try to donate that meat. So we like to keep them cold, wrap them up in a fish bag, put as much meat, much ice in there as you can, keep them wet as well. If you keep them bad and cold, he's going to stay long and you're going to get some meat and you can donate out of it. And people eat them in Hawaii all the time. They eat them in all these other islands all the time. I mean, it's not like the best table fare. It's not like we're going to, I'm, you know, let's go catch them all in a day so we can feed the family. But if you do catch them all in a day, she dies. It is edible. We have some especially smoked. Like we really like it. I've smoked Marlin on a bagel. Yeah. Yeah. I've had some smoked taco or some fish taco, Marlin tacos or they're fine. Yeah. You can dress it up and it's totally edible meat. but, we have some, some charities that we sit that we work with and the golf, golf coast, feeding the golf coast and different charities like that. that if a fish does come in the mongo and wait in one of our waste stations, we have outlet to get rid of that meat. A lot of times you'll have to flay that meat up and bag it up, but that's not a big deal. And then you just put those bags in the freezer or wherever and we'll have those cherries come up and pick it up. And they'll donate it to, if it's edible for human consumption, they'll donate it to some homeless shelters and whatnot, but also some zoos and things like that will take it for their tigers and their different. Burning sanctuaries. Yep, yep. So there, you know. Katie (44:38.158) alligator farm. How cool that you guys have like have thought all that yeah alligator farms for sure thought all of that out at your way stations like okay when we bring this fish back like I just love that you're obviously so sustainably minded. Yeah yeah yeah future conservation minded you know it's making choices you know make make your choice because if you want your kids to do this you know try to take some responsibility you know. Nobody loves Marlin more than Marlin fishermen. There's a bunch of fish huggers out there. Why in the world are you killing a fish? my goodness, neanderthals. Well, nobody loves them more than we do. I feel like we've hugged more Marlin. Yeah, we've hugged way more Marlin than y 'all have. And nobody raises more. Nobody raises more money to protect them, to research for them. We buy fishing licenses. That money goes to help all of it. So I love it when people... And the money we put into the communities. Yeah, I love it when people in all the comment sections, they all have an opinion and you go look them up and they're living in Iowa somewhere and never even seen a blue marlin. They have no idea what they're talking about. So nobody loves marlin more than marlin fishermen. We want them around. And yes, we try to take efforts to promote. people want them around more. We kill a few extra fish a year, but all under that minimum. We're allowed 250 per year. National Marine fisheries, white and blue marlin, and if there's an extra three or four killed in the mongo, and they're all huge fish, and they're all celebrated and all that, I think it's good. I don't think it's hurting anything. If anything, it's helping the industry, all the money that's raised from marlin fishermen, bringing new little junior anglers into it. Like you said, with... Like you said, with kids taking photos and stuff like that at Grand Isle this past weekend, there was a line of people, like literally after we took our photos, our team photos, there was like a line, like a single line of probably 15, 20 people waiting to take their picture with this fish that they only know who we are. They don't, you know, they're gonna take a picture with this fish so they can send it to their family members. I mean, very, very cool. Look at this. Yeah, so cool. Yeah, very cool. Did you even know this animal existed out there? Right. Yeah, and also like this, you know, Katie (46:54.286) Another way giving back to the fishery and the communities is the science. The science we're getting from it. These fish are known as rare event species and you and I can both testify to that. And they're really hard to get. They're very expensive to go after. And the scientists, the schools that are studying them to make sure that they are sustainably managed, that they are cared for correctly, that they are going to be in the lives of our children and our children's children in the future. they don't have the funding to be able to catch them themselves. And the fact that we have fishing teams that want to bring them back and take integrity and donate responsibility and donate these specimens to the science labs. I mean, USM was so stoked on y 'all's fish. Like it was, they were just so excited. USM, the Bill Fish Foundation, they were just really excited. So like you said, no one loves marlin more than marlin fishermen. It's just, it's a fact. exactly. And really cool fish. Yeah. And I've, I've even heard of people like, you know, we don't catch them as big as they, you know, y 'all are killing the stock. Well, think of all the records has been set in the last couple of years. All right. So last year, the biggest fish that's ever been recorded in the Gulf of Mexico was called in October, 1145 pounds. I see three years ago. Yeah. And days after he's one of our boys, he's one of our boys. He's, he's like one of the original supporters of the Mongo. Captain Chris Moat, he's an amazing fisherman loves blue morn fishing is really really good at it and Man, that would have been so special if it was caught two weeks prior to that. But yeah, so Yeah, so that's a golf record. I mean biggest one in the golf And then what what was Duffy's fish like four years ago the you know, 1 ,100 pounds caught in Maryland? All right, and then two years before that, Big Rock had the biggest ones ever caught in Big Rock. I mean, we're, the fish are still here. They're good. You know, we need to continue to take care of them and grow them, but they're not, we're not, we still have those old man in the sea photos. That's what the Mongo logo is about is staying inside that amazing fish. Well, there's proof that they're still out there. I mean, that just proved it. So yeah. That's so cool. I want to get into the live baiting. Katie (49:19.534) I want to get into why it's challenging to catch live bait in the Gulf of Mexico. So when we were in Costa Rica, I keep bringing this up, but we were bait and switch fishing predominantly, which you guys, that's teaser fishing. And if a fish shows up behind the teaser, we take the teaser away and then we present them with a dead bait with a circle hook in it. Right? And then we generally get a really active aggressive bite. It's a good feed, good hook set. That's all she wrote. But we were catching our bait out there. It was Bonita and they're prolific. They're just prolific. And I've heard that catching bait in the Gulf of Mexico is a very different experience. You've already touched on how the bait was real deep on this last trip and y 'all were struggling on catching bait. A lot of times you guys will have a little bit of an easier time catching bait at night, but then you're catching bait at night and losing some very valuable sleep. as well as, you know, those bait, they go deep during, during the day because the water can get so warm. So let, can you, can you give us a little bit of Intel into how you keep your tuna tubes, what tuna tubes are and how you keep them full and what your, your best care and strategy tips are? Yeah. So that's definitely progressed over the years. I remember live baiting in like 2005 and six, somewhere around there was my first time. was fishing on a boat with a really experienced captain that was really, really good at it. And they didn't even have tubes yet, but he live baited a lot. So he basically catches bait, put it right back out. Might even get a little creative and catch a bait and keep them close on a little leash in the water. Literally, that's your live bait tube, just keep them in the water on like a little leash with a little hook through his or a clip through his nose. Whatever, get creative to keep at least one in the quiver, to put one back out. But there's... caught a lot of fish by catching them and then hooking them up, putting them right back out and then doing well that way. But obviously if you can have a quiver of baits so when you get sharks or a barracuda eats it or a porpoise eats it, now you got to go catch more bait again. So now became the tuna tube. So it started out with boats getting two or three on there and now you'll have boats with 20 on there. We have 16 on our, so obviously the more tubes you have. Katie (51:46.094) The more bait you can have, the longer you can go without having to go try to catch bait again. So 16 tubes, man, that's been a whole progression as well of how do you keep 16 fish alive? So you have to have a lot of water flow. So there's a lot of techs and all kinds of science and mechanics and figuring out how much flow and how to get the best flow. And do you want bubbles and not bubbles? And where do you put your through hole? I mean, there's so much that goes into it. And every boat's different and all that. So anyway, over the last five or six years, it's very common to buy your boat. If you're building a brand new boat, say Vikings building your boat, and you can get your tubes installed at factory or right, you know, maybe you'll refit it when you get it down to South Florida. And there's a couple of guys that specialize in that and they'll refit your boat before you even go pick it up. You go pick up your boat and you got your sonar and your tubes. And those are primarily golf boats. Golf boats, we have tubes. If you don't have tubes, you're probably not fishing in the Gulf. So not competitively. Yes. And there's a lot of guy dredging now doing phenomenal. The guys that are really good at dredging still catch tons of fish, but a lot of that's on standups. Are you going to kill that? Those are your tag release guys. So the guys that are trying to catch the big one are live baiting primarily. And then you want them on a circle hook rather than have them on a J hook. because man, all the things didn't go wrong with a J hook. So, circle hook is a really good way of catching a big fish and being able to fight it through and land it. So, yeah, so typical day is, you know, if we're showing up, you know, tournaments leaving in the Gulf, you're leaving at like 10 a 11 a you're running out to your oil rig that you've picked, or you might stop on the way, some guys stop on the way at some bottom spots and pick up some bonito. A lot of times the bonito will hold up over a natural reef. or a shallow water oil rig and picking up some bonitas first. Bonitas are usually shallower where we live and as you get out you'll start getting to the black fin and the yellow fin and there's some skipjack and things like that. Yellowtail, or not yellowtail but rainbow runners. Things like that you can catch out there too. But you're trying to catch them trolling. Some people fish on the surface for them. The guys are figured out the getting deep, getting creative. Katie (54:07.502) how to get down deep with planers or downriggers or whatnot to get down deep to where they're at. And then all kinds of different things you can catch them on, little squid imitations or minnow limitations or spoons and all kinds of different ways. You're making them on daisy chains and figuring out a way to get those fish to eat, those little baits, and then you're bringing them up, putting them in your tubes. Once you get your tubes full, you go fishing. And then some guys, while they're fishing, they got a guy on the bow with these sea keepers. That's a whole nother thing. You got a guy, these sea keepers, if it's relatively calm, they're up there casting the popper, casting little plugs, little jigs to try to catch. You got one guy who's just a bait fisherman on your bow while everybody's fishing in the back. Try to continue. That's how important the bait is. You got to have that fresh bait. So yeah, you load your baits and then you're fishing, looking with sonars. Before sonars, we just all... stayed up on the up current side of the rig. A lot of times that up current side is where the marlins will be because the school of tuna typically swims around in circles on the up current side. My theory is it's easier for them to get back to safety. If they got to swim down sea to get back to safety, it's a lot easier than having to swim up sea to get back to safety. It's like a bass or anything. Yeah, it's like a minnow or anything else. or a reef fish, they're gonna swim back. So the upcurrent side will be the busy side. That's where most of your tunas are. That's where most of your predators are is upcurrent of them. So now it's easier for them to catch fish if they're swimming down sea versus having to swim into the current. That's how I figured it. So yeah, so that's the way we used to do before sonar, but now sonar's changing the game. Now it used to be, all right, and I'm gonna sit there with baits on the water while I'm sonar fishing, looking for something to troll over at two knots, my live bait's over to that mark. But now a lot of guys aren't even putting a bait in the water until they mark a fish because they've gotten so confident in their sonar abilities to find that fish. Don't even put a bait out until they're right on top of that fish. All right, deploy. Put your baits in the water. There he is. A lot of guys are getting really good at doing that. You can tell who's good at doing that. Wow. Just watch three tournaments. And if a guy's winning or placing in each one of those three or two of those three, Katie (56:16.27) that guy is a really good sonar fisherman because that's what he's doing. He's not waiting on chance and you know, just maybe official swim by this current side. He's, he's literally feeding that fish. It's almost like teasing that fish, but you know, you don't have to tease them. Just drop a bait on it and he'll come up and eat it. Cause I think the prop wash and all that makes them think that the feeding friends of the year, whatever, at least they're paying attention to what's going on with that prop wash up there. Yeah. So it's definitely progressing. It's, it's changed. It's like every five years something different and people are getting really good at that and then five years have changed and it's something people get really good at that. But that's the thing now, the successful captains that are, especially with numbers of fish are doing is not even putting a bait in the water until. So now you don't have to bait fish near as much because you're not killing so many baits. You're not wasting them whether tiring them out or you're getting shark aid or we get a lot of sharks, a lot of barracus, a lot of porpoise around them. these rigs too. So yeah, so daytime you're trolling for them, playing in whatever you got to do. At nighttime you're jigging and jigging is pretty easy. Once you find them, at nighttime you can load your tubes and usually 30, 45 minutes you'll have some bite, you know, you'll have some eating by sharks and whatnot. Sometimes it's frustrating, if it's really rough it's sort of hard to hold up sometimes. But yeah, loading them up and then you're ready to go and definitely lose some sleep. Some guys are bringing an extra guy, just like a night driver. You know, that way he's fresh, doesn't at least not run into the rig in the middle of the night, 3 a trying to hold

Our Favorite Lures Lure Making 101/102: The Kona Fishing Chronicles - Book Fishing Hawaii Style - Volume 3 - Book Fishing Hawaii Style - Book   In this episode, host Katie C. Sawyer interviews Captain Chris Donato, a big Marlin fisherman in Kona, Hawaii. Chris shares his fascinating background, which includes fishing in various locations around the world. He discusses the Kona fishery, known for its lure fishing, and the deep marlin culture in the area. The conversation also delves into the logistics of shipping boats to the Southern Pacific and the different types of lures used in Kona. In this part of the conversation, Chris Donato discusses the different types of lures and their characteristics, including plungers, tube lures, scoop face lures, and bullets. He also shares the historical origins of lure fishing in Kona and the transition from live bait fishing. Chris explains how to choose lures for the spread based on their aggressiveness and loudness. He also discusses the feeding behavior of marlin and the factors that affect lure performance. Finally, he provides tips on adjusting lures for optimal performance. In this conversation, Chris Donato discusses various aspects of lure fishing. He explains how the orientation of a lure can affect its swimming behavior and the importance of adjusting lure position based on wave conditions. He also compares vinyl skirts to rubber skirts and shares his preference for rubber skirts. He discusses the benefits of teasing fish and the challenges of heavy tackle bait and switch fishing. Finally, he introduces GZ Lures and GZ Tackle Co. as platforms for providing the best fishing equipment and educational content.   Takeaways   Kona, Hawaii is known for its rich marlin fishing culture and lure fishery. Shipping boats to the Southern Pacific can be a challenging and stressful process. The Kona fishery offers opportunities to catch big blue marlin, with the best months being July and August. The marlin culture in Kona is characterized by a deep history, ego, and a focus on big fish. Lure fishing in Kona is a popular and effective method, with a variety of lure types used. There are different types of lures, including plungers, tube lures, scoop face lures, and bullets, each with its own characteristics and performance. Lure fishing in Kona transitioned from live bait fishing, and lures became more popular due to their effectiveness. When choosing lures for the spread, it is important to consider their aggressiveness and loudness, with the most aggressive lures placed closest to the boat. The feeding behavior of marlin can vary, with some periods of aggressive feeding and others of territorial behavior. Factors such as water conditions, lure design, and rigging can affect the performance of lures, and adjustments may be necessary to optimize their performance. The orientation of a lure can affect its swimming behavior, and adjusting the position of the lure can optimize its performance. Rubber skirts are preferred by some anglers due to their durability and color variations. Teasing fish can lead to proper bites and better hookups, but it requires skill and technique. GZ Lures and GZ Tackle Co. aim to provide the best fishing equipment and educational content for anglers.  

CONTACT YOUR LOCAL CONGRESSMAN:    https://www.boatingunited.org/take-action/congress-protect-boaters-speed-restrictions/?   Summary   In this conversation, Katie C. Sawyer and John DePersenaire discuss the proposed rule for the North Atlantic right whale situation and its implications for boaters and seaboard communities. They highlight the importance of speed for recreational fishermen and the economic impact of the proposed rule. They also emphasize the need for collaboration and the use of technology to address the issue. The regulatory process and timeline are also discussed. The conversation discusses the dual path process of rulemaking, with an interagency review and a public side. The role of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) is explained, along with the challenges of the public not being aware of any changes made to the rule. The formation and work of the Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force is highlighted. The current stage of the rule being in OIRA's hands is discussed, along with the strategy for the ongoing public comment period. The involvement of the Small Business Administration and the importance of a comprehensive approach are emphasized. The potential of recreational anglers as an untapped resource is mentioned, and a call to action is made to reach out to local congressmen and participate in the Boating United action alert.   Takeaways   The proposed rule for the North Atlantic right whale situation has significant implications for fishermen, including economic impact and access to fisheries. Speed is essential for fishermen to reach fishing grounds and maximize their trips, and the proposed rule would greatly restrict their ability to do so. Collaboration and the use of technology, such as artificial intelligence and marine electronics, can help reduce the risk of vessel strikes on whales. The regulatory process for the proposed rule involves public comments and review by various agencies, with the final decision taking into account economic impacts and other factors. The rulemaking process involves both an interagency review and a public side, with the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA) playing a key role. The public is not made aware of any changes made to the rule during the interagency review, creating uncertainty. The Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force is working on a comprehensive approach to reduce vessel strike risk and protect North Atlantic right whales. The current stage of the rule is in OIRA's hands, and there is an ongoing public comment period.a The involvement of the Small Business Administration and the need for a balanced approach that considers both industry needs and whale protection are important. Recreational anglers have the potential to contribute valuable information and technology to mitigate the risk of vessel strikes.   Transcript   Katie (01:42.718) What's up, you guys? Welcome to the Katie C. Sawyer podcast. I'm sitting down with John DePerson here today. John, tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are. John DePersenaire (02:26.149) Yeah, sure. Thank you, Katie. And thanks for having me on. So my name is John DePersonere and I'm the Director of Government Affairs. So that's a really broad title and it really encompasses a lot of different aspects of my portfolio of work. So obviously things like regulatory issues, government affairs issues, things that have to do with either regulatory or legislation that impacts us as a manufacturer in the marine industry, but also how our customers use the boats. So like fisheries management, that's all really important part of that. as well, but also then on the sustainability side, looking at things like efficiency, looking at our energy use, looking at our waste stream, all those sort of things, supporting efforts to support fish habitat and some other projects that we're doing. So it's a really broad scope of work and it's really, really interesting. Katie (03:23.458) That's awesome. That's a huge responsibility on your end. And like you said, broad. Before I started fishing, I was working, not even close, but I was working as director of environmental health and safety for an oil and gas company. And it's just like there's like this entire channel of products that you're supposed to manage. And you're like, I like this is so, so broad. But that's amazing. I'm really, really honored to be sitting with you here today. Thank you so much for giving your time. I really want to jump into what's going on. on right now with the North Atlantic right whale situation and the proposed rule that was set forth in August of 2022 and how that's affected us and what we can see moving forward. So can you just give us a little bit of a status on what's going on with the right whales and what the what rule was proposed as a reaction of that? John DePersenaire (04:17.536) Yeah, so, you know, this is an issue the industry has really been following carefully for the past year and a half now. And as you said, you know, this proposed rule came out in August of 2022, and it was driven by NOAA. So NOAA has a an office within it's called the Office of Protective Resources. And their job is to carry out and implement. the mandates of the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act. So with North Atlantic right whales, they are, there's no question that they are in pretty serious, dire concern in terms of a population size. And just, you know, recognizing the history of that species, it really was one of the targeted, most targeted species in commercial whaling for centuries, which really- drove down the population, but also imposed some sort of ecological constraints, which just made it much harder to rebuild when commercial whaling stops. So like when you fish a, or not even fish, but when you hunt a population down that low, you start to have genetic issues. And we see that like with, you know, upland hunting and things like that, you try to manage for a strong gene stock. And so that was one of the constraints. So that like, you know, if you look at reproductive output for North Atlantic right whales, it has been trailing off. And so it just makes it that much harder to rebuild. So they know the two main sources of mortality for North Atlantic right whales are entanglement with fishing gear, mostly lobster pots up in Massachusetts and North and also up in Canada where they spend their summers and vessel strikes. And so NOAA has been trying to... up with management measures that addressed those two sources of mortality. And so the rule that came out in August, that was directed towards the latter, that was directed towards reducing risk of vessel strikes. And what that did was it expanded upon an existing rule that was in place starting in 2008. And what it did was it dropped the size class of vessel that would be subject to vessel speed rules. It expanded the areas that would be subject to the seasonal management areas. John DePersenaire (06:39.036) And it also expanded the vessels. So it dropped it down from 65 and above down to 35 feet and above. And so what that really did was originally the 2008 rule was really focused more on the ocean-going vessels, so like the container ships, the tankers, some of those really high displacement, high tonnage boats. It also captured some of the recreational fleet as well. but the intent was really the bigger ocean growing vessels. And so this step now starts to bring in a massively different segment of the fleet now. And you're starting to bring in center consoles and a whole bunch of boats that have probably never even seen a North Atlantic right whale. And so this is all about reducing risk. And this is what is somewhat different than what we typically deal with fisheries management. Katie, I know you're really versed on highly migratory species, you know, and so a lot of times we're dealing with, you know, quota setting and, you know, really specific percent reductions, trying to get to a sustainable biomass and things like that. So we can tailor regulations based on that percent reduction we have to achieve. This is a little bit more nebulous in the sense that we don't actually have that number that we need to reduce risk by. And so that's a really challenging thing. for us to look at. And so we're just not versed in trying to figure out how we come up with a solution to that. And so when we first saw the rule, we're like, oh my God, this is gonna impact a vast number of boats. For a lot of people, it's gonna go into effect November 1st and last through the end of May. So those are really, really important times of year for up and down the coast now. I mean, as you know, like we have some of the best tuna fishing off of... New York and New Jersey now in November and December, which is crazy to think, but I mean, it's just, those are no longer months when people have their boat out of the water and up on the hard for the winter. It's, you know, we're fishing all the way through January. And so that becomes a real, real big impact. Also guys that move their boats from say our area down to South Florida in the fall, you know, they're gonna be subject to this. And so what, you know, typically is a... John DePersenaire (09:02.128) know, two, three day trip now becomes something massively different when you're going 10 knots. And so there's all sort of implications that we have to think about in terms of impacts of this. But one of our biggest criticisms was obviously, you know, a recreational boat hitting a North Atlantic right whale is an extremely rare instance. In fact, we have some third party analysis that really shows that it is like that one in a million chance. I mean, that really is numbers of boats and the numbers of strikes that are attributed to those boats under 65 feet. But the other thing that we were we were sort of upset about was that there was really no alternative in there that took into consideration technology, right? And so, you know, Katie, I know you've run boats for a long time and, you know, boats are constantly improving it. And so for, you know, every time you come out with a new model, it's always safer than the last model. And that's just a function of, you know, engineering, design, improvements in marine electronics. And so safety is just one of those key elements when you're building boats, you know, safety, efficiency, performance, amenities are sort of like the top four things, right? And so a big part of safety is collision avoidance. Like, and we don't want to hit anything that's on the water. I mean, you know, like, Katie (10:29.37) I think what a lot of people don't understand is that a vessel between 35-65 foot, if it hits a whale, we know and there's gonna be damage. There's gonna be significant damage to the vessel and like you said, potentially the safety of the people on board. That's a really good point. John DePersenaire (10:47.82) Yeah, so I mean, the point is, is that, you know, this is a space that, you know, we and other builders and the whole marine industry are constantly working on. It's not like we just heard about this rule and like, now let's figure out something to do here to not hit whales. Like this is just something we do and not to put it in a in-person way, but a North Atlantic right whale is just another object in the water that we do not want to hit. And we have been developing products over these years that allows us not to hit them at a reduced rate. So. We've been making progress on this and we were, it was unfortunate that there were no alternatives that kind of gave us credit for that or provided an opportunity to explore how technology can reduce risk. So, of course. Katie (11:31.502) I'm going to stop you right there before you go on because this is a great segue. The first thing I want to touch on is you said a couple things throughout that were interesting points. So from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, in 2008 there were speed reduction zones put in place in the Atlantic Northwest of the ocean, Atlantic Northwest, Northeast of the U.S. That always gets confusing for me. Where speed reduction zones for ships above 65 foot. length. Is that correct? John DePersenaire (12:03.6) That is correct. And most of those areas were around sort of the entrances to major courts. So like the approach to New York Harbor, Delaware Bay, Chesapeake Bay, Cape Fear. Then there was also areas south of Cape Hatteras where there are seasonal nursing areas and calving areas. So like where the mother and the calf are spending a lot of time down there in the winter time. And they are vulnerable down there, there's no question. Katie (12:29.118) Yeah, for sure. And it's specific in areas where you see a lot of cargo ships coming through because it's significant to global trade and economy. Now, can you tell us a little bit about how, if there was any impact on our economy based on the speed reduction zones for vessels of that size? John DePersenaire (12:49.304) Yeah, I mean, you know, one thing that's been interesting about this rule is it sort of brought a lot of different sectors together that typically didn't work on, you know, issues together. And so one of those, well, a couple of those sectors were pilots, you know, fast ferries, the shipping interests, the ports, and, you know, so offshore wind, you know, they all have really big concerns and they... speculate it's going to have implications not only for their operational needs, but also you think about just getting product to shelves. Does that impact supply chain issues? Does that impact availability of products? Does that impact cost to the consumer? So all those sort of things are playing into this and they certainly have implications that are not discrete to recreational fishing and boating, this is something that would impact a significantly broad part of the maritime commerce in general. Katie (13:56.398) Mm-hmm. But, okay, let's talk about how you said it's difficult, I believe, I think you said that it's difficult to quantify the population of whales right now. Do we know how long it takes for them to reproduce and they have how many, they have one pup, I think it's a pup, right, a whale? I'm not sure, one baby, a calf, that's right. A calf at a time, correct? And every now and then too, but like you were saying, John DePersenaire (14:18.835) Cheers. Katie (14:27.912) significantly decreased base to overfishing or over harvesting. So in the past, way years ago. So I just want to like really clear up the blurry areas of the last 15 years of regulation to help protect these Atlantic right whales. Is that what you said? Is it the population's difficult to quantify? John DePersenaire (14:53.912) Well, it's not typically challenging to quantify it. And in fact, North Atlantic right whales are probably one of the most studied and monitored large marine mammal populations in the world. I mean, that's a fact. What I think difficult is that, again, we're not seeing reproductive output that would sort of get us to that number that they believe it needs to be at to be considered sustainable. And so, like, for example, I'm not a North Atlantic right whale biologist, so I don't know the exact numbers in terms of, you know, their gestation period and how, you know, their sort of calving cycle. But I do know from a management standpoint, the agency is sort of looking for 50 calves a year to, for many years to get the population to a sustainable level. And if you look at reproductive output over the past, you know, 10 years, I don't think we've gotten to 50 once, you know. So it's sort of underperforming and there's a lot of reasons for that. You know, genetic issues are one, the population size is small, so it's harder for them to communicate and find the mates. You know, there's things happening with climate change and their food source, you know, they're really dependent on copepods and, you know, they're not sort of like a humpback that can, you know, switch from, you know, herring to bunker to, you know, anchovy, you know, like, you know, they're really discreet feeders and they are really keyed in on copepods. And so their availability of copepods is somewhat changing and perhaps putting them in more areas where they're vulnerable to things like ship strikes. So there's a lot of challenges that are happening there. Katie (16:37.45) Yes, excellent answer. I love it. So what we're seeing is we're trying to, well, Noah put forth a rule, a proposed rule to try and limit the speed of vessels to help protect these whales, but there's lots of potential issues associated with that. Now you mentioned taking into... Now, you mentioned taking into account technology. Can you go on that a little bit for me? John DePersenaire (17:07.936) Yeah, so, you know, and I think it's important, maybe your audience, it's not really important, but yeah, I know for some people involved with this issue, this is important, and they don't quite understand this, that for us, speed is an essential element of our boats, right? Not only is it, you know, safer, you know, to run a boat when it's, you know, operating at a, you know, at the most optimal speed. But for us, we're not necessarily designed to be out in weather that a container ship can be out in. And so speed allows us to maximize on these weather windows of opportunity, right? And so if we are trying to get to fishing grounds and it takes us say two hours to get out there, we can conduct our trip and get back before that weather turns and makes it unsafe out there. If we are now forced to, you know, to have that two hour trip now become six hours to get out to wherever those grounds are, that could put us in a unsafe situation or we just canceled the trip altogether because the weather window was not big enough. So speed is one of those things and just everything about our vessels is designed around performance, speed and range. And that's really the only way recreational guys can access the fisheries. I mean, we are not... commercial fishermen where we can go out, you know, 10 days at a time and, you know, say goodbye to the family and say, Hey, I'm going marlin fishing. I'll be back in 10 days. Maybe some people can do that, but you know, it's a different, it's a different element for us, you know? And so speed is, is it's not something we can dismiss and say, well, you guys can just go slow and still carry on your way. Like it doesn't work that way. Speed is an essential element of our boats. Katie (18:42.37) Yeah. Katie (18:54.002) And why is it important for these fishermen to be able to get out to the fishing grounds instead of canceling their trip when there's weather? Like tell us about the economic benefits of that. John DePersenaire (19:02.964) Oh, I mean, yeah, I mean, so well, I mean, it's well, first of all, it's it drives a significant economic impact. I mean, so just from Viking standpoint, I mean, this is a really prime example. You know, we're the leader of the world leader in terms of building sport fish boats. You know, we produce the most in the world and our boats are really designed exactly to go far and fast and engage the highly migratory species. And so if you take away our ability to. to go fast and access the fish that our boats are designed to do. I mean, the value of that goes down significantly, you know. And so, you know, we have over 2,000 employees that are just building boats to go fast and offshore. I mean, that's exactly what we have a workforce that's doing every day, you know, and that includes electronics folks and everything. So the impact is it just cannot be understated more. And I think what was so alarming in Katie (19:49.055) locally. John DePersenaire (20:03.46) the proposed rule in terms of the cost benefit analysis that NOAA put together, they did not understand that trips would be canceled and people wouldn't even take trips under a 10 knot limit. And so yeah, and this is the other thing that's really important. So it's not like these areas are going to be really, you know, discrete like they were in 2008 and they were around just, you know, entrances to inlets and ports and things like that. know, in some cases, like in the Middle Atlantic, they're going offshore 90, 100 miles, you know, and so, you know, it's hard to imagine even going 20 or 30 miles at 10 knots in a recreational boat. I mean, it's just, it's hard to imagine that. And I just know that would just drive people not to do it. Their boats would come out, you know, December or October 31st, they wouldn't go back in until June 1st, and, you know, you're missing a massive amount of economic activity for that. Katie (20:42.614) No, it's... John DePersenaire (20:57.268) And also, I mean, you're really denying a lot of people access to fisheries. So, you know, I know you're a big, you know, HMS fisherman. And so that's one of those fisheries where only the public can only access that through a boat. Like, so the HMS permit that everyone gets that goes out in Marlin and tuna fishes, you know, that's assigned to a vessel. It's not like you can fish for them from shore. It's just illegal to do that, quite frankly, which is an interesting discussion all in itself. But. Katie (20:57.364) Yeah. Katie (21:21.751) Yeah. John DePersenaire (21:25.42) So you have to go out on either your own boat, your friend's boat, a charter boat, a headboat, you know? And so when you start to think about how this would impact those boats, you almost become, it almost becomes an obstacle for the public to access those fisheries, which are really economically valuable, sustainably managed and really good eating, you know, for some of them, not marlin, of course. Katie (21:47.074) Mm-hmm. Yep. No. Yeah. John DePersenaire (21:50.36) But you know what I mean, so it becomes this impediment for the public to access a well-managed resource. And I think that's like a really unintended consequence that they didn't quite think about when they put this into place. Katie (22:02.166) Right, definitely. Because, I mean, it's not just, like you said, it's not just all the jobs that would be at risk at Viking. It's all of these seaboard communities that depend on the tourism, that depend on people wanting to go offshore and go fishing recreationally. Didn't you tell me, John, that you did a impact study on one specific operation and the amount of economic loss that company would had was just exponential? What was that? John DePersenaire (22:30.188) Yeah, so that's a tour boat captain out of North Jersey. And his specialty is getting folks out, particularly in the fall, to chase striped bass and tuna. And he's built a great business on that. He's got several captains, quite a few mates. He's got three boats. And just looking at his operation between the times that this rule would be in effect between November 1st and the end of May. He was looking at losing 70 trips. And so that was roughly working out to $140,000 a year, just for him. And it's not just him as the owner operator, but his mates, the other captains that run that boat, the people that detail and service his boat, the people he buys the bait from. It's just that you talked about, yeah, the marina where, I mean, all that shoreside infrastructure that supports the recreational fishery and commercial fishery would be impacted. Katie (23:09.567) Yeah. Katie (23:17.226) The Marina. All the support. Katie (23:28.09) Yeah. And then you have situations like, for example, the White Marlin Open in Ocean City, where I mean, it's not really in the zone, but you have I'm sorry, not really in the time frame, but you have so many people coming to these communities and it's quantifiable millions of dollars being brought into these communities just so that people can be a part of the recreational fishing sector. Like, I mean, that's crazy. That's crazy to me. Hotels, restaurants, all of that Katie (23:57.904) really big in the northeast. So I find that interesting. I'd like to also touch a little bit on how we have... there seems to be like a big disconnect between what people are, how some people are dubbed environmentalists. It's kind of like a like a bad word sometimes in our industry, which is strange because in my mind, like I'm an environmentalist 100%. I have a master's degree in environmental science, you know, like I, I'm an environmentalist, but I love the ocean. I'm also a fisherman. And I think that there's like this stipulation between the parties other every single time. And for example, I think that a lot of people think that fishermen aren't conservationists, that fishermen don't love the ocean, but we're the ones that are spending our lives out on the ocean that want to share that with other people. And I think it's important to really highlight the fact that a lot of times you'll see polarization between the parties, but that involving different stakeholders is really important in making educated good benefit of the whale population. You touched on how this has brought together a lot of different stakeholders. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? John DePersenaire (25:18.348) Yeah, and that's a really good perspective. And so, you know, one of the things that when we saw the rule come out and sort of analyzed it, and, you know, we obviously knew it was gonna have impacts from an economic standpoint and an access standpoint. But we also knew that there was other ways of addressing this. Like, we just feel like we're too smart of an industry not to come up with another way of, or providing another tool to help with this issue. And so what we did was we pulled together a task force of experts in various different fields, from marine electronics to analyzing very high resolution satellite to artificial intelligence, processing thermal imagery and visual imagery, forward-facing sonar, modelers that work on crime analysis, but they can see an application here for managing whales, even friends at like, you know, ROFs, which, you know, I know a lot of your listeners are really familiar with, you know, they have a really interesting approach that, you know, they analyze sea conditions looking for marlin and tuna, but that same application can be used to figure out where we may want to focus management efforts for North Atlantic right whale. So all of this gives us the ability to start to think about how we could more... Katie (26:36.45) So cool. John DePersenaire (26:43.3) dynamically manage this and also have more nuanced approaches that are consistent with what we see in terms of differences of risk across vessel classes. So like what we may want to see for say an ocean going vessel, like a container ship, may not be the best approach for what we see on a 35 foot center console. You know, there's just the attributes of those vessels. It's just vastly different. there's safety concerns that, say the center console can take a base of action, whereas a container ship just, they're not at liberty to take action or slow down or any of those things. So the idea of this task force was really to look at ways that we could start to think about it on that more nuanced level. And also a big part of that was really putting an aggressive thought towards leveraging technology. And again, I... spoke before about how we're always building a safer boat every day. It's not like we build a less safe boat tomorrow. We're just constantly improving upon that. But what's really interesting about the task force is that we've put this really aggressive focus on marine mammals. So we've always been trying to avoid anything that's in the water. And now we've just sort of thought about how we can be more. narrowly focused to speed up acceleration for marine mammals. So for instance, we did a pilot project last December off the coast of New Jersey and we affixed, you know, so Viking, Atlantic Marine Electronics, working with a company, you know, so we put a FLIR on top of a commercial fishing boat out of Barnegotte Light, you know, and FLIR is something you're familiar with, you know, a lot of our boats have that, you know, it's nothing new, right? And so what was really knew about this was that the FLIR feed was being processed real time by an artificial intelligence algorithm. So it was able to, as that feed was coming in, it was able to classify a whale spout, you know, so its breath, it could pick that up, and also its body. And so it was a really fascinating exercise to see what is possible. And it wasn't perfect. John DePersenaire (29:04.056) But as you know, with AI, it's just, the training is what makes it so good. So the more these things are used, the more data we can throw at them. That's what's really going to spark this innovation. That's what's really going to accelerate this process. And I think what's so interesting about that is that it's coming from the private sector. So you talked about environmentalists. It's, I'm not dismissing any other industry, but we're really at the forefront of trying to find. pathways here to reduce our risk of hitting whales. And that's a really important thing. So one of the things that the task force asked for, you know, over a year and a half ago was for NOAA to convene a workshop and to pull all these various stakeholders together, you know, and figure out how we can collaborate. You know, what are people working on in all these different buckets that have to sort of be addressed and come together to create this overall bigger risk reduction approach. And so that workshop was finally convened last week. And I think it demonstrated a couple of things. First of all, I think it demonstrated that we are sincere. We're here to work. We're not starting from zero. And we've been focusing on this over the past 12 months. The other, I think, really important thing was that we're open to working with anyone. So this is sort of separate from the vessel speed rule in the sense that we're committing long term to doing our part in this issue. And so we are willing to work with anyone. If anyone has a project that they've been working on that has some relevance for this and there's some ability to assist or support what they're doing or bringing them on. And we can provide vessel time on one of our demo boats or something like that. We are open to working through this solution in good faith. And that's something I think was, I think our industry really demonstrated that. commitment to this and I was very impressed and really I was quite proud, you know, to show us, you know, the garments, the Navico's, the, you know, the fathoms, the roffs of the world to show up and say, yeah, what can we do? You know, let's roll up our sleeves. Let's think about this as a problem that we can all collectively contribute to and make some real progress towards. So it was great to see that. Katie (31:18.766) Yeah. That's awesome. I love, I got chicken skin. That's super cool. Um, congratulations. Can you give us like a timeline breakdown? A little idea on the regulatory side, how it looks, because this is where things get a little blurry for me, if I'm being honest. But the regulatory side, how it looks, you, um, they, they proposed a rule. Then the Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force, that's what it's called, right? That's the name for it? Was assembled. And tell me a little bit about the timeline. that has ensued since the rule was proposed and what has gone on y'all's end and on the government end. John DePersenaire (31:58.124) Okay, yeah, so like you said, the rule was introduced in August of 2022, and it's following, it's moving forward with the traditional federal rulemaking process. So it was open for public comments for, originally it was open for 30 days, believe it or not. And so one of the first things we did, I think the next day or the day after that, Viking put in a request for an extension for the public comment period, because we just. I mean, we knew immediately that this was the most consequential regulation that was ever going to impact our industry. Katie (32:32.35) I mean it's crazy. You already touched on the fact that like 10 knots is so slow. You guys, 10 knots you get like approximately 10 miles in one hour. That is so slow. That's what we go at night when we can't see anything. John DePersenaire (32:37.448) Right. John DePersenaire (32:43.02) Yeah. Right. Right. And so we knew we needed more time. So we put that request in. We got another 30 days. So the comment period was open for a total of 60 days. And so there was over 90,000 comments that were submitted from various interest groups. And we're very passionate about this issue, but there's also that other side that are very passionate about whale conservation, and rightfully John DePersenaire (33:17.368) we agree that we need to do something to help them. Absolutely we do. And so when that comment period closes, Noah is then charged with reviewing all those comments and responding to them. Not necessarily each individual comment per se, but the general themes of the comments. So there could have been say, 5,000 comments that were all sort of geared in one direction or. there may be 10,000 comments that came from an action alert or something like that. So they can respond to them as an aggregate, not necessarily each individual one. And so they look at those comments and they take them into consideration and they think about how they could perhaps modify the regulation. And so they can do a couple of things. They can, they can make modifications in response to those comments where they can do nothing and move forward with it. And so that's something that the public is not aware. And when, yeah, and so when federal rulemaking is taking place, in fact, the agency charged with putting forward that rule typically has, you know, is not able to talk about specifics in terms of modifications to what they may be considering or may have done in that rule. So it's sort of an unknown how this is sort of playing out. And so, but. Katie (34:13.95) It's behind closed doors. John DePersenaire (34:37.44) it has taken a much longer time. So originally when the rule came out in 2022, there was this sense, again, I talked about that really short public comment period, 30 days, but there was also this thought that they wanted to hurry this up and have it in place by November of 2022. And so we were like, oh my God, how can this dig? And so that was sort of the timeframe that the agency was initially pushing. And so as you can see, that's been Katie (34:55.77) Oh my gosh. Ah! John DePersenaire (35:07.068) significantly, significantly extended and not just because of the impacts to, you know, again, going back not to the impacts just to us, you're talking about, you know, national economy wide sort of impacts that have to be considered. And it wasn't just us that were submitting comments with concerns, it was the ports, it was the pilot associations, it was the shipping interests, it was the ferries, it was a whole host of people that make a living or their businesses tied to moving on the oceans. So it's a big deal. And so, so as you can see, we're much farther along than the original timeframe that no one wanted to get this done by. And so now we've just transitioned into this final step. And so some of you may have seen the first week of March, the rule went from the Department of Commerce, it went to a small office within the White House. It's called the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. And that's sort of this final analysis where they look at all the work that NOAA has done in developing the rule. They look at their cost benefit analysis, their modeling exercises, how they are looking at risk reduction, what alternatives they've put forward, the economic impacts. So they look at sort of all of that. And they also, even though they're not necessarily a political branch, they look at sort of the of the White House, they also try to mesh up what this rule could do in terms of some of the priorities of the administration. So, you know, things like, you know, how will this impact American jobs? How would it impact domestic manufacturing? How would this impact inflation? How would this impact supply chain issues? All sort of things that we've been talking about over the past few years. So that could come into play in this, because of course, when... Katie (36:55.158) macroscopic view. John DePersenaire (37:01.46) no one in the Office of Protected Resources put forward a rule, they're not necessarily in the position where they have to give so much weight to some of those bigger sort of impacts. They're really just, again, their mandate is really to put forward measures that seek to protect and rebuild an endangered species. And that's, so this sort of all comes together at this final stage. And there are opportunities for the public to weigh in. There's also opportunities for, you know, members of Congress and other people to weigh in this process. It's sort of a dual path project that happened in parallel. One is an interagency review, which is not open to the public. So that's where this office of OIRA will reach out to, say, Interior or Commerce, all these different departments within the federal government, and ask about their input and thoughts on the rule and how it would impact the the issues and the stakeholders that they're charged with dealing with. And then also there's this public side. So the members of the public actually can request a meeting with OIRA and then the final stage. Katie (38:12.882) OIRA is Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs. And so when the rule got pushed to OIRA or given to OIRA, did it then become public knowledge or is it still all behind closed doors? We don't know what's going on after the comment period. John DePersenaire (38:17.68) That's right. John DePersenaire (38:29.26) Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what's so challenging about this. Again, I said there is an opportunity for the public to weigh in and have a meeting, but when the rule advances, the public is not made aware if any changes have been made. So we understand that some changes were in consideration, but we don't know specifics or if they address all of our concerns. We have no idea. Katie (38:54.818) from that public comment period, way at the beginning. Wow, so all this time, it's been behind closed doors. We have no idea what's being discussed or if there have been any changes being made. We can speculate on what's being discussed, but if there have been any changes being made, and then it gets pushed over to OIRA, we still don't know, but there is an opening for public comment. When is that opening for public comment? Has it already happened? John DePersenaire (38:57.296) Correct. Yes. John DePersenaire (39:21.912) So it starts when the rule is forwarded to OIRA. So it's open now as of the odds of March. And we don't know exactly when that closes. So there's a bit of uncertainty in the speed at which a rule can stay or advance out of OIRA. And there's a couple different things that could happen here. One, OIRA could review this and say there are concerns. And we need to go back and come up with different, or not different, but add different alternatives, or add new ways of dealing with this issue. So thinking back to the original rule that came out, there was a whole bunch of support documentation that was with that. And one of those was the draft environmental assessment. And in that assessment, it included five different alternatives. but all of them were exclusively focused on vessel speed. There was no consideration of technology or any other ways of reducing risk of vessel strikes. And so one thing that could happen is that OIRA looks at this and says, the economic impacts are significant enough that we want to send this back to NOAA for them to consider alternatives that could utilize existing technology or technologies that could be developed. to help with this issue of reducing risk. So that's a pathway that could be beneficial for us, or it could just move forward as written. Again, we don't know exactly how it's been rewritten, but it could just move forward and become final. Katie (41:00.13) So tell me how the building or the assembling of the Whale and Vessel Safety Task Force has played a role in this process. John DePersenaire (41:15.168) Yeah, it's been a really interesting, and I'm so grateful to the members who agreed to sit on that task force, because I think it's unprecedented in the sense that we've seen such a diverse field of experts really sit down and commit to working on this. So the task force is just a, basically it's a think tank, you know? But it has all the key elements, right? So, you know, obviously we're looking at things like detection. We're thinking about how detection information makes it out to the fleet. You know, how that one, you know, how we want that to display on someone's multifunction display. We're thinking about how we can better model. So we're thinking about this in a really holistic way. And we're trying to address all these different sort of puzzle pieces that have to come together. to ultimately get information out to operators. Because that's a huge part of this and something that is just so, it's just missing from the current approach is that if we can get information out to operators, information that's timely and relevant, there is a significant benefit in that. And as you know, as an operator, like, you know, you don't wanna be bombarded with information that's not relevant, right? You know, because the last thing you want is, Katie (42:41.358) Oh god no. John DePersenaire (42:43.076) being, you know, having all these alerts going off, because after three or four, you're like, oh, that was for, you know, an area 100 miles south of me. Like you're going to turn it off or silence it, you know? And so one of the big things that we really have to focus on is getting the most relevant, important information out to operators when they're in an area where they need to get that information. And that's a key element that this task force and what the industry is working on. So as you know, like, Katie (42:47.85) Mm-hmm, you get me. Yeah. John DePersenaire (43:11.056) There is a ton of research institutions out there that have been doing incredible work on North Atlantic right whales and marine mammals in general, like just experts. Awesome, they do such good work. But that information and that work has not much use for us in its present form. There has to be this connection to the marine industry to bring it all together and then to have a positive response. And that's ultimately what we're trying to do. We're trying to give... operators information so they can make decisions about their trips and also how they can make decisions about reducing risk of hitting wells, right? And so that is the real critical element where the task force and our industry plays a role that sort of no one else can. Like we have to be at the table if we want to see this complete solution, so to speak, come together. Katie (43:49.196) Right. Katie (44:04.826) Yes, okay, I love it. So not only has it been, has since the public comment period has been behind closed, I'm sorry. So not only has everything been behind closed doors since the initial public comment period, but this task force has been assembling. And didn't you guys push to have a NOAA representative sit aboard the task force so that they can know what's going on? John DePersenaire (44:31.904) Yeah, no, and it's been a great asset for us and I think for Noah as well. So we meet with that liaison once a month. And you know, I think that's a great It's a great commitment showing that they're willing to engage with us and share information. And one of the things from this workshop that we're really keen on doing is continuing that sense of collaboration that we saw during the workshop. I mean, I think the majority of people went into that really with, you know, this willingness to sit and talk with anyone and really figure out how we can work together on this issue. And so That's something we really want to continue with NOAA moving forward. You know, again, we may have concerns with the rule, but we're in complete agreement that we want to reduce vessel strike risk. So we are in parallel with them on that effort if they're willing to work with us. And everything we've seen so far since the workshop has been great. And we want to continue that type of synergy that we think is really essential for this type of problem. Katie (45:40.758) Well, on behalf of the industry, I think it's absolutely incredible that you guys have not only like just sat back after public comment period, but taken all this initiative to, like you said, take a holistic approach on the issue and to come forth and provide a solution and to fight to make sure that no one knows exactly what's going on and to have a liaison there. I think that's awesome. So the rule right now is in OI-Rez hands. Is that is that correct? John DePersenaire (46:09.764) That's correct. Katie (46:10.672) So you mentioned there's another opportunity for public comment, which is happening right now. But you don't know what's being discussed in the rule or what's being proposed moving forward or what Oryrus is exactly seeing. So what's your strategy going into this public comment period? Because you can't say what you said in the initial one because that's just a waste of time, right? So what's your mindset there? Like how are we looking at that? John DePersenaire (46:39.372) Yeah, so. Our strategy going into this is, again, we don't know what the rule is, but I mean, I think from Viking's, I'm just going to speak just from Viking standpoint, you know, we have, you know, just over 20 different models of boats. All of them are over 35 feet, except for three. So I mean, the impact to us is really, really significant. And even if they were to say, increase that minimum threshold from 35 up to 40, it really doesn't do much. for us. So our argument really has not changed even if say the rule has changed as it's progressed on to O'Rei-Ry. And again, we're just speculating. We don't know exactly what they've done to that rule. But there's really a couple of things that we are going to bring to those meetings and how we're going to try to address this. There still are really significant modeling flaws. So this is something we talked about early on. Katie is that, you know, the way no one looks at vessels and the risk is associated with that vessel. Originally, it was those 35 foot and up all had the same sort of characteristics, right? So you think about displacement and draft depth, you know, they are just vastly different between a Panama X container ship and a 35 foot center console. And so one of the big criticisms is like, you know, if you're going to model risk, I mean, come to us, get the data, we can show you what a 35 foot center console drafts, right? And what it does at 10 knots and actually how that draft actually to step tall, it starts to decrease as you get up on plane. So we can show you all of that. And we don't think that they've taken enough steps to get to that level of specificity that would make sense from a management standpoint. So we still think that they are vastly, vastly. Katie (48:12.715) Open book. John DePersenaire (48:35.936) inflating risk of recreational boats because they haven't, at least as far as I know, they have not come to any of the manufacturers to get those vessel specs, which would be critical to put into that risk encounter model, which is driving a lot of this. So that's something we will continue to point out. The other thing is that we sort of do now have real impacts. So we've had a few orders that have not gone through because of the vessel speed rule. So... no longer is this theoretical in terms of what it could do to an industry like recreational fishing and boating or a boat builder like flaking. We now have demonstrable impacts and it's not just us and our workforce. You know, for that boat in particular that was canceled, you know, there's 28 different suppliers that we go to from engines to stabilization to electronics packages to... know, riggers, rott holders, coolers, fish box appliances, like the list is significant, you know. So again, we can start to demonstrate that their cost benefit analysis, which put this at three, roughly $3,000 per vessel per year, was just vastly underestimated because we now have, you know, we now have one example where we can just say, we can walk through, you know, the spec sheet, the bill sheet for that boat and say like, Katie (49:47.227) Oh my gosh. John DePersenaire (49:59.512) what we had to go back to those people and say, this order is not going through now, we're gonna need to cancel this PO. And so, and also wrapped up in that boat was roughly 13,000 labor hours. So that's a big hit for a workforce that is here to build boats. So that's really what we're going into, but obviously other groups will be going in talking about the safety aspects, talking about the privacy aspects, knowing that AIS, a safety tool. is now being used for enforcement. And that's a huge concern. Talking about just the public's access to the resources, you know, these well-managed fisheries, which we've worked all so hard to get rebuilt and well-managed, and now all of a sudden, we're not going to have access to them for up to seven months out of the year. So those are all key issues that, you know, we are going to be going into this OIRA phase really trying to drive home. And of course, you know, small businesses will be weighing in as well. The ferries, the charterboat guys that, you know, can demonstrate lost trips during these periods of time. All that is really, really critical in this stage. Katie (51:06.914) I want to ask you about the small business and the inter, I don't remember the lingo, but the intergovernment relations or branches. We'll get to that. But first I would like for you to tell me, please tell me a little bit about how they're proposing for AIS to be used for surveillance and why that's an issue. Tell us what AIS is. Start from the beginning. John DePersenaire (51:27.488) Yeah, so that is it. Yeah, so AIS is Automatic Information System. And so the easiest way to think about AIS is almost like air traffic control. So when you pull up like flight aware, you can see the flight number, all the aspects about that plane, what its heading is. And we have something very similar on the marine side. And the rules for vessels that are required to carry AIS generally broken down into two classes. One is class A, those are vessels that are over 65 foot and engaged in commercial activities. So they have both receiving and transmitting AIS. And what that means is that they are sending out a signal that gives it's, you know, the vessel's identification, what its classification is, its heading and its speed, I believe, and also its position. So you can... Katie (52:18.89) Yeah, speed, length, and bear, yeah. John DePersenaire (52:22.028) So, right, so if you pull up something like marine traffic, you can actually see where all those big MERSC ships are, are going and all the tugs and tows are going because that's a really important thing to know. Like if you go out and fish for, you know, giants in the mud hole and spring fog, you really want to know those boats are coming, right? So it's a huge safety tool. Boats that are under 65 feet or non-class A vessels include a lot of like, you know, Vikings and sport fish boats. And they're typically, Katie (52:40.096) Yeah, definitely. John DePersenaire (52:52.044) receive only. So they get the benefit of receiving that AIS signal, but they don't have to transmit their information. And so what's been happening over the past few years is that NOAA enforcement has been going into these data sets of AIS data and they've been retrospectively investigating boats and seeing where they may have exceeded some of the existing, again, remember, going back to 2008, there have been some areas that have been placed since then for both 65 foot and bigger. And what they've done is they've gone back and figured out, just calculated if they exceeded the speed limits. In a lot of cases, it's not even like, you know, it's a 10 knots. Two years. Yeah. Or, and in cases, some cases it's like, you know, not even like, you know, they're going 40 miles an hour in this, you know, 10 knot zone. They're going like 13 knots, like something that Katie (53:34.89) It's not even real time. It's like going back and looking and then... John DePersenaire (53:49.396) And you know, running boats, like depending on the sea, you can be, you can be going between bouncing between eight and 12 a lot of times, right? Even if you're just trying to spend the tide or you're navigating an inlet. And so. Katie (53:50.882) with the current, yeah. Katie (53:55.534) 12. Yeah? Mm-hmm. Katie (54:01.226) especially when you're looking at a ship of that magnitude and size. John DePersenaire (54:04.14) Yeah, and so that's what I think is one of the most concerning parts of the enforcement aspect of this is that they're taking a tool that has been designed for a navigational aid and a significant safety benefit and using it for enforcement. And the last thing we want people to do is to second guess themselves, turn that thing off and be like, it's just not worth the risk because it's not like these fines are like, you know, Katie (54:23.646) Stop using it. Mm-hmm. Nope. No. John DePersenaire (54:31.192) you know, $50 for like an undersized fish. I mean, these are, you know, pretty significant fines, upwards of $7,500 of violation. So it's not like it's insignificant. Katie (54:38.199) Yeah. Katie (54:41.87) Oh my gosh, so this kind of like makes me sick a little bit, but obviously we want people to follow the rules. We don't want cargo ships going 30 knots in a 10 knot zone, you know, for sure. But like in my personal experience, you guys like. the AIS system in the central, in the Pacific, I know this isn't what we're talking about, but I'm just saying in the Pacific there's no shipping lanes. So it's a very, very essential safety tool that both you can see the ship and know where they're heading and what direction and what speed, especially when it's two in the morning and there's no moon. And they can also see where you are and your speed if you're underway or not. And I mean, you have to have AIS. And looking at I don't have a lot of experience in the Northeast, but I do know that there is significant fog conditions and we already touched on the fact that there's like a lot of ship traffic and a lot of boat traffic because these are really big ports. And like John just said, I just have to reiterate this that no, we don't want vessels to be going too fast in these zones. But what we really do not want is for people, for humans to be turning off their AIS system be a like a sea that's pushing you a little bit further because you're trying to get out of a storm, whatever it might be, and turning their AIS off and putting themselves at risk. So yeah, no, there's a that's a that's a big issue. John DePersenaire (56:14.668) Yeah, and so like for the Northeast in particular, you know, like, you know, New York is now considered the busiest port in the U S you know, and so you can imagine all the vessels, you know, coming in and out of that approach. And you're exactly right. I mean, like say you're out fishing and you're hooked up, you know, say you've got a giant on, you know, you, you want to have your AIS on because as those, those big container ships are trucking through and there's no, you know, there may not be any speed restrictions out there. I mean, they'd be going 26 knots. Like you want them to see you. And so that's a really critical thing to keep our fleet safe. And the last thing we want is it to be used for something it wasn't intended to. And then people start to second guess that because they're concerned about enforcement or even just privacy issues. I mean, we're not considered a highly regulatory, highly regulated activity. And for some applications like the commercial shipping sector, yeah. I mean, that makes sense for them to be. Katie (57:00.982) Yeah. John DePersenaire (57:13.136) tracked and monitored. And I think it makes sense to use I.S. in that application for them. But like for the private citizen, it really doesn't. Like I think a lot of people will be upset if, you know, we just found out that like, say the FBI was tracking everyone's cell phone position. Like it's just, you know, we do have fourth amendment rights. Like you can't just have, you know, warrantless search, you know, and monitoring. Right. And so that's, this really comes into that element. You know, do our federal enforcement Katie (57:32.432) It's very 1984, big brother. John DePersenaire (57:41.768) agency is allowed to have access to that data without a warrant. I mean, that's a real serious privacy question that has to be answered, to be honest. Katie (57:50.23) Yeah. and especially with you guys working on potential technological advances and uses for tech to help mitigate this situation. Just the fact that you guys are working hard to give a different solution, I think is exceptional. Now, already we know how it worked with proposing the rule. We know you guys built a task force and are continuing to try and find a better solution, continuing to be involved in the government, even though it's all behind closed doors. And you told me the other day, I believe, that there is, you got involved a little bit with the small business office in the U.S. Can you tell me, I don't remember the lingo, I'm sorry, but can you tell me how that is a way to help benefit the situation as a whole despite the fact that you guys don't really have a say in what's going on the regulatory side? John DePersenaire (58:44.512) Yeah, so we had a roundtable discussion with the US Small Business Administration back in September of 2022. And it's really an interesting branch of the federal government. It's relatively small. But they have this one office, it's the advocate. And really what their charge is, is to make sure that small businesses in the country are not, you know, inordinately impacted by federal regulations, right? Or at least that the impacts are known if they move forward with a decision on that. And so during that round table discussion, there was representatives from our sector, the recreational fishing and boating sector, the ports, pilots, fast ferries, even seaplanes. I think there was a representative for the seaplanes there. So as you can imagine, it was everyone that had some stake or had some activity on the water that was important to them. And really what that ended up producing was a really strong letter from the Small Business Administration that was submitted to the federal record that pointed out that the industry was demonstrating that there were things that could have been considered in terms of reducing risk through technology. but they weren't considered in the rule. And so that was a really powerful statement. And so as this rule now goes on to OIRA and reflecting back upon those two pathways that happened in parallel there, that interagency review is not open to the public, but the Small Business Administration is involved with that interagency review. So... That is something where we have been sort of going back to them and providing them updated impacts. And so we've had some charter boat operators submit their statement, basically saying, I do X number of trips in this period of time. I sail from this port. This is what I charge for a trip. I'm a small business. I have four employees. I have two employees, whatever it is. And that's a real impact that the Small Business Administration, they can go back and John DePersenaire (01:00:58.42) submit that during the interagency review. So I think those are going to be really critical messages. And again, like the most important thing, I think, in this stage is bringing new information. The one thing that was hard about that public comment period, again, it was, it's hard to believe they're going to do it in 30 days, but even with 60 days, it was really hard to even get a lot of the economic impact information there, you know, and it just took more time for us to develop that and talk to the right people and get that all into place. So This is a good opportunity for us to bring that new information to the table because I think it's really compelling and it's really critical that they know about these impacts before they make a decision on this rule. Katie (01:01:41.49) Yeah, well said. Perfect. I love it. Besides the task force and the US Small Business Administration... You're gonna have to forgive me on that. What other... Have you guys been doing anything else in all your time you have? Or... I'm just kidding. John DePersenaire (01:01:53.477) I'm so happy to say it. John DePersenaire (01:01:59.556) Well, yeah, I mean, so, you know, listen, members of Congress, I mean, they're always concerned about, you know, constituents and impacts to, you know, their, their states and their districts that they represent. So this is a time where, yeah, if you ever thought about, if you thought more about how this would impact you, your business, your, maybe if it's even not a business, how it impacts your livelihood and your recreation, because that's a important thing, you know, reaching out to your member of Congress, letting them know, that member of Congress can then relay that message also through the interagency review. So they're allowed to engage in that as well. So all these sort of things are important. And again, the message is not that the hell with the North Atlantic right whale, you know, let it just run its course. What we're saying is that let's figure out how to come up with a really reasonable that acknowledges the needs of the industry, but also acknowledges that we have to do something for North Atlantic right wells. And we think there's that balance that can be struck there. And listen, we've, again, you've pointed out that task force several times. I mean, it's not just there on paper. We meet, we talk about this, we're doing pilot projects. The electronics folks are hard at work trying to figure out how this, get this all integrated onto a screen. So work is being done. It's not like we're just. pushing this off and saying, you know, we just want to go fast. You know, we are trying to come up with alternatives here that make a lot of sense. And so that's really what our message is at this final stage is all about. You know, we are working towards something that's going to have benefits for both the industry and. Katie (01:03:42.162) 100%. And not only that, but don't we feel like having a speed reduction zone for vessels 35 to 65 foot doesn't actually make a big difference on the right whales? John DePersenaire (01:03:58.124) Yeah, I mean, that's something that, yeah, we're not exactly sure it's going to have much benefit. This is one of the, you know, I talked about this earlier, but this is, again, it's all about reducing risk. And again, it's just a little bit of a foreign approach because, again, thinking back to fisheries, you know, we're typically given a status report of a stock, right? Say we're talking about bluefin tuna, for example. know, and say, all right, this is the stock status. It seems like we have to reduce fishing mortality by 25%. This is what that 25% reduction is going to do to our overall domestic quota. This is how we're going to implement regulations to achieve that 25% reduction in quota. This is a little different in the sense that they say we need to reduce risk of vessel strikes. We don't disagree with that, but we're not giving a clear objective. And so from an incremental progress standpoint, how do you even know if you're making progress. That's a real tricky thing. And so what was so interesting as we were trying to dive into the details to figure out a little bit more about this so we could help with our work and product development and all that sort of stuff, seeing if we're coming up with ideas that even had adequate effectiveness rates, what we found was that, what was so interesting is that in response to the 2008 Vessel Speed Rule, there was a reduction of vessel strikes. but there was actually no, they were not able to correlate that to the rule. So it's a really interesting modeling exercise and one that doesn't quite make sense. It seems like we need to figure out what was driving. Maybe it was a Vessel Speed, because I mean, I know when I think about a big shipping container, I mean, if that thing's going 15 knots or 10 knots and it hits a whale, I mean, I don't think the outlook is much different, to be honest. So... It just makes you really want to dive into the details and it really wants you to make sure that we're looking at this from a really comprehensive standpoint. Like we don't wanna just assume that risk from a 35 foot center console boat is detrimental to the stock. It may be and it may have a risk, but is that significant enough to take such significant action? Or are there other ways that we can go about? John DePersenaire (01:06:20.204) mitigatin

Join TBF Today!!  https://billfish.org/become-a-member/   Be a part of TBF's tagging program! https://billfish.org/research/tag-and-release/   Episode Summary   In this mini episode of the Katie C. Sawyer podcast, Katie follows up on her previous chat about sail fishing in southern Florida with Mike Calabrese. She brings on Peter Chaibongsai and TJ Morrell from The Billfish Foundation to discuss the tagging program and what it has revealed about sailfish populations and their migrations. They talk about the movement of sailfish from southern Florida to the Yucatan and other areas, as well as the use of satellite tags to track their movements. The conversation highlights the importance of data collection and the involvement of recreational fishermen in contributing to scientific research.   Keywords   sail fishing, southern Florida, kite fishing, trolling, Bill Fish Foundation, tagging program, sailfish populations, migrations, satellite tags, data collection, recreational fishermen   Takeaways   Kite fishing is a predominant style of fishing in southern Florida. Sailfish populations in southern Florida are known to travel quite a bit, with historical records showing them going all along the coast and even as far as the Caribbean. The Billfish Foundation conducts a tagging program to collect data on sailfish and other billfish species. Satellite tagging provides valuable information on the migration patterns and behavior of sailfish. The majority of data collected by The Billfish Foundation comes from recreational fishermen.   If you have a question you would like to receive data for, email TBF at tag@billfish.org along with a description of the data you would like and what it will be used for. A new website is coming soon that will make this process easier!

In this conversation, Mike Calabrese discusses his history and experience in fisheries throughout the globe. He explains the technique of kite fishing in South Florida and the importance of bait culture. Mike also discusses the sailfish migration and their preferences for different types of bait. In this conversation, Mike Calabrese discusses the differences between kite fishing and trolling for sailfish, highlighting the advantages and challenges of each method. He also explains the impact of seaweed and grass on fishing success and the relationship between seaweed and baitfish. Mike shares insights on water clarity, cold weather, and its effect on fishing. He delves into the technique of hooking a fish while kite fishing and the importance of angles. Additionally, the conversation discusses teaser fishing and the importance of quality dredges. Mike then introduces Firetailz, which offers lightweight and durable artificial dredge baits for fishing.   Videos by Dave Collier   https://www.firetailz.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fire_tailz?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw== ----more---- TRANSCRIPT Katie (00:03.18) What's up you guys? Welcome to the KDC Sawyer podcast. I'm your host Katie and today I'm sitting with Mike Calabrese. Mike, thank you so much for joining us. Where are you sitting in from? Mike Calabrese (00:15.719) Hey, Katie, glad to be here. I am at my home today in Jupiter, Florida, South Florida. Katie (00:21.838) Is that where you're from originally? Mike Calabrese (00:24.327) Somewhat, I'm from a little further south, Pompano Beach, Broward County, and my work and stuff on boats had brought me up this way the last few years, so decided to call Jupiter home. Katie (00:36.524) Jupiter is a really, really pretty place. What's your experience? Give us a little bit of rundown of your fishing history, your experience in the field. Mike Calabrese (00:40.071) Great town. Mike Calabrese (00:47.268) Oh boy, okay. So growing up in South Florida, obviously near the water, fishing was always a thing as a kid. Started out freshwater, bass fishing in the canals where I grew up. And then that elevated into my buddy's dad was in a boat rental club. We used to take a boat out and go catch mahi. And then I went to a high school where I met some friends with boats and that led to... some tournament fishing with some friends from high school, which we got pretty good at, and ultimately took up work on boats in my early 20s, kind of undecided as to a career, had a connection on a boat, and the rest is history. Never look back. Katie (01:32.879) So you're fishing, you're fishing with predominantly southern Florida for a good chunk of your early years, correct? Or your early in the industry years. Mike Calabrese (01:42.947) Yep, that's right. I worked for a program that we pretty much did South Florida kite fishing and then we go to Key West a lot. But mostly Florida before a new job and taking on some travel in my mid -20s after the first job I had which is mostly South Florida based. Katie (02:02.832) Where did you go once you started traveling? Mike Calabrese (02:06.469) Um, so after the first job, I went to school to get my captain's license. I met a fellow there, uh, who was also a fisherman. We became friends in class. And, uh, after this class, uh, he reached out, asked me if I wanted to help deliver a boat, um, from Stewart to Panama, I believe. And, um, I had nothing else going on. I said, sure, let's do it. And, um, met a captain there. It was an American custom yacht. Uh, had a good trip. ended up going back for another delivery which brought me from Costa Rica to Cabo San Lucas where I ended up meeting another boat that was in need of a crewman and that was a boat called the Patriot, a big 80 foot Monterey, Captain Terry Stancil and his wife Bonnie and the timing was right there. I met them in Cabo San Lucas and came back a little while later to start my work there for several years I worked on the Patriot. That was a great learning experience, great program. Fished the Gulf of Mexico and then eventually we towed the boat with a mothership across the Pacific down to Tahiti onto the Kingdom of Tonga and then New Zealand was the distance of that travel. It was a very outstanding trip, yeah. Katie (03:26.707) That's so cool. That's amazing. Okay. So when did you start in Cava with Patriot? Like, what year? Mike Calabrese (03:37.67) That would have been probably around 2005, 2006? Yep. Katie (03:44.147) And so, what were you fishing there? Were you fishing like the finger bank, Gordo? What were you fishing in Cabo? Mike Calabrese (03:49.894) I had missed the big striped marlin season there up the way there at Mag Bay. They had done it previously before I got there. I was actually there for a little while and then we brought the boat back to the Gulf of Mexico that summer. We caught some striped marlin out front, but never the big number stuff that folks are seeing now. Katie (04:09.94) Were you... Was that your first exposure to like marlin fishing? Mike Calabrese (04:15.237) Uh, somewhat. Um, I did have a stint with a friend of mine who, uh, family had a boat and I second mated that, uh, in St. Thomas for a season, which was another great learning experience, blue marlin fishing in St. Thomas. Uh, but other than that, yeah, I had minimal, minimal marlin experience until that point. Katie (04:35.541) So the St. Thomas Marlin fishery is pretty, I've never done it myself, but it's like, I don't want to say rat blues, but like small blue marlin, correct? Like kind of similar to Costa Rica or am I off? Mike Calabrese (04:45.477) Huh? No, St. Thomas is actually known for bigger average quality size fish. Probably 250 to 500 is, you know, but it gets a little rougher there. The fish are angry there. They're very aggressive. Good average size fish, probably average three plus and aggressive and good teaser bites and people love it there for the angry fish. And it would be probably starting in June, but it seems... Katie (04:55.158) Okay. Katie (05:11.095) What's the season in St. Thomas? Mike Calabrese (05:17.701) you know, a little later, the best times I would say would be August, September, October, perhaps lately. Late summer. Mm -hmm. Katie (05:23.704) Nice. Super cool. So, man, I hadn't realized that you were towed on a mothership across the Pacific Ocean. That's a story for another time. I'm going to try not to focus on that because I have a million other questions I want to ask you. But you kind of you caught me off guard. You blew me away there a little bit. But OK, cool. So growing up in South Florida, you were doing the now you mentioned the kite fishing. That's something that. Mike Calabrese (05:38.413) Yeah, okay. Katie (05:53.081) I actually didn't know even was a thing until well after I had started kite fishing for Yellowfin Tuna in the Pacific with Artificial. And I came in, this is for the listener, I came into, back to the Gulf of Mexico and was starting to work with an organization that had me in South Florida for a little while and I called Mike up and I was like, hey, I need to understand this kite fishing industry. Like, why are we? why are we flying kites for sailfish and why only here? So Mike, can you give us some some insight on that? Mike Calabrese (06:31.268) Yeah, so I mean, I certainly didn't invent it or anything like that. I guess down in Miami in the 1950s or so, a fellow figured out how to build and fly a kite and dangle some baits from it with release clips. Basically in South Florida, it's kind of a function of our geography. We have a very steep drop off off the coast. It drops off pretty quick. Therefore the lane that the fish tend to hang out and travel in is quite narrow. So for example, typical sailfish depth here, a lot of places, call it 100 to 200 feet of water. As you get down to South Florida, it's a fairly tightly compressed lane. With that being said, trolling can be difficult to stay in that area, to maximize your fishing in that lane. This fella, I know Bob Lewis was one of the first guys to build a kiter. Those are the first kites from Miami there. Great idea. What it does is it enables you to, almost like an outrigger, get multiple baits away from the boat and also fish them on the surface of the water where sailfish like to come up and feed. It's very visual. You get to see the bite often. It's a fun way to fish. It's pretty efficient. Yeah, it's a fun way to fish. Katie (07:57.821) That's cool. So what you guys are doing is you're using the kites to put the baits in a very specific area because there's only a small surface area where these fish are most likely going to be congregating and feeding. Mike Calabrese (08:13.636) Right, so, you know, that's the thing about any fishing is you never exactly know where the fish are gonna be as far as depth of water, location. But basically we'll take the wind direction, wind direction combined with current, and that's how you decide to where you're gonna put your boat and how your kites are gonna angle behind the boat and what depth of water they're gonna be in. So we'll fish two kites. typically, you can do more, some people fish three. But we'll take two kites and we'll, those are each on their own kite rod, which is an electric rod, short, like a teaser rod, and that has braided kite line on there and clips that catch as the kite goes out. And typically we'll fish three rods per kite. We'll take little split shot sinkers and we'll weight the kites in the corners to, kick them either left or right and once again depending on the wind direction how much kick or bank do you need to essentially we're making a fence for these fish that are migrating south at the same time as the boats drifting north we're almost intercepting schools of fish and your three kite baits are designed as you know you basically want to cover as much ground as possible to cut off these fish moving south. as your boat moves north, typically. Katie (09:42.432) So how do you have, if you have one kite and three baits from each kite, how do you keep your baits separated? Because they're live baits, right? Mike Calabrese (09:51.297) Yep, yep. So the clips are distanced apart. So a standard setup is you'll let your kite out, clip your kite on, let it out. About 100 feet comes your first clip, which will be your long. Now the kite rods are outboard typically in the covering board of the boat or in the wings outboard. And then you have your rocket launcher or whatever inside and that will hold your rods. So you'll have three rods on the right side. and the furthest inside is your long, then middle, then short would be closest to the kite rod. And it's important just to keep those in order as you let your kite out and fish, bring your kite in, those rods all stay in order. So when you do get a fish on and you pop out of the clip and you have to get tight to your fish, you're not tangling with the other ones. So those baits are spaced out on the kite line. The kite's about 100 feet from the first clip and then we... 65, 75 feet apart are the clips and that's what keeps your baits apart hanging there in the water. Yeah, so if you get a fish is when it gets tricky, you know, having to pop out of the clip and then lift, oftentimes you have to lift up the other baits out of the water so your fish in line can pass underneath as you get tight to your fish. So. Katie (11:10.402) Man, so how many anglers do you have generally? Do you have one per rod, one per bait, or do you have to... Mike Calabrese (11:17.027) In a perfect world, yes. Yeah, just like trolling, I mean the more people holding rods, the better because, you know, just like trolling, if you can see the bite coming or, you know, you're in free spool, obviously with your thumb on the reel, anticipating the bite, you're ahead of the game, you got a better chance at hooking your fish and feeding the fish without it feeling anything weird. Katie (11:38.979) Because those sailfish in South Florida aren't very big. Most of my sailfish experience is in the Pacific and they're quite a bit bigger than they are in the Atlantic. So how much are these fish weighing approximately? Mike Calabrese (11:46.529) Mm -hmm. Mike Calabrese (11:51.138) Yeah, I'd say the average fish is probably around 40 pounds. I mean, they're, they're, they are, you know, they vary in size. Some, some days they run bigger. Some days you notice they're a little smaller. But I will say, you know, where they might not be as big as the Pacific sailfish, they, they do fight quite a bit harder. They're a little, you know, they can, they tend to go deeper on you during the battle sometimes, change directions very crazily. They're, they're wild fish. And there's no telling, you know, one minute they could be jumping out here to the left and then the next minute they're 200 feet over that way and you got a big belly in your line. Trolling, you know, once again, like in the Pacific there, you hook a fish, put the boat on a turn. They tend to stay in the middle of the circle, you know, of your turn. Hooking a fish on a kite, there's no telling where it's going to go sometimes. So it can be a little tricky with all those baits. Katie (12:30.244) Ha! Katie (12:47.588) interesting. Mike Calabrese (12:51.65) in the water hanging. Also the boat spins to go catch the fish and now you've got kites wrapping around your tower with your baits off your bow. Sometimes you get a bite while your baits are off the bow catching another fish but it's very much a team effort and the more people you have that are competent and helpful the better you're going to do. Just like trolling. Katie (13:15.941) Yeah, all the more reason to have somebody on every single rod, every single line and bait. Mike Calabrese (13:20.534) Absolutely, yep, paying attention watching your baits, you know We have the floats or markers that we fish kite fishing a lot of the trolling guys make fun of them calling bobbers, but It's a pink styrofoam float, which is it's a visual indicator for us on the boat. You know that your long bait might be 250 feet away from you or something, but you know, it's hard to see your bait in the water Plus you want your bait a little underwater. You don't always see your bait. I we're actually watching our pink styrofoam floats, which are at the top of our 15 foot leaders. So those we're trying to keep above the water. And when you do get a nervous bait or a bite happening, that thing kind of starts to show, you know, some funny activity and I might be getting a bite here, my bait's nervous. So we're staring at pink floats all day long basically. And then. Katie (14:11.143) That's so cool. Yeah, I mean, when we were fishing kites, we'd have just one kite, I mean, one kite and then one artificial on it. And we'd have to tie like a fluorescent ribbon to it just to have an idea of where the heck that was. Because you just, if you're doing your job right, you can't see your line. You can't see your bait. So, I had a question, but I'm gonna go real quick. Mike Calabrese (14:25.183) Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mike Calabrese (14:32.385) That's right. Yeah. Katie (14:39.301) Fishing for the Pacific sails, with so much experience fishing for Pacific as well as South Florida, the smaller ones. Do you find that there's a difference in the bite? Like are the smaller sailfish more finicky when they eat? Mike Calabrese (14:54.337) Um, it depends. Um, some days and, and, you know, I don't think any fishermen completely knows the answer to this. You know, you have people talk about the moon, the tide, you know, this, that, and the other thing we like to make excuses, let's say when things don't work out. But, uh, I will say that you tend to get, uh, more aggression out of fish when they're traveling in a pack. So for example, if you get a really aggressive bite, um, it's an indication that there might be more fish with that fish because of the competition factor. Typically lazy, sometimes these sailfish are extremely finicky, fussy. They could come up and look at your bait, we call it window shoppers, because on the kite you're sitting still, you're able to actually sit there and watch it all happen. And sometimes a fish will come up and eyeball your bait, swim a circle around it. Just an... swim off like it was not interested. For whatever reason, it happens. Other days they're chewing the paint off the boat. So you just got to go to know, I say. Sometimes it could be the bait. We often think, we always carry different kinds of bait. A few different staple species of bait that tournament boats are going to go with. If you had that happen to you, sometimes you say, oh, maybe he didn't want my... my goggle eye maybe he wanted a herring but who knows you know we don't they don't talk to us but all you can do is take that information and try to you know if you got to change your bait for the next one or something but they are fin they can be very finicky especially in certain weather conditions you know weather I call them weather fish down here they're extremely you know they're they're feeding is a lot based upon weather. cold fronts, I can elaborate on that. Yep. Katie (16:52.875) How so? Tell me more. Mike Calabrese (16:54.846) In South Florida, in the winter time is sailfish time. And when the wind, we get cold fronts, north wind, cold temperatures is typically when you get the fish biting. I believe it has to do with the colder water temperatures of the north pushing them down. Then they start to fight the current of the water. They're traveling south, they're stemming the current. They got to use more energy to swim south. With that cold weather comes north wind which makes big waves against the current. So when that happens, just last week, we can get into this, but we had a big event here. We had finally got a couple real strong cold fronts where we got down in the 40s for South Florida. It real cold and the fish finally showed up. So when it gets real good like that, they get to biting, they get to moving. Katie (17:43.86) Whoa. Mike Calabrese (17:53.053) tailing sailfish, which I'm sure you've seen in Cabo San Lucas or the Strait Marlin, but you know, when the wave direction gets right, they'll pop up on the surface and try to catch a ride with the waves. And that's when the really big numbers come through in Miami last week, you know, 60 fish, tailing fish, people, people riding around in their towers. And it's super fun. You know, once again, a lot of people might downgrade or denigrate the spinning rod. Katie (18:11.661) That's crazy. Mike Calabrese (18:22.173) However, it's a fun way to fish, site fishing, casting at tailing sailfish. But other than that, yeah, the weather, the weather, they like cold, they like the cold snaps here in South Florida for sure. Get some going. Katie (18:29.101) Nice. So are you? Katie (18:35.309) That's awesome. And I like that theory behind it too. The, um, so are y 'all flying kites as well as sight casting when that happens? Mike Calabrese (18:45.212) Yeah, depending upon how many are tailing. If you're flying kites, you're pointed into the wind anyhow, into the sea. So the captain or another guy can typically look for fish while the rest of the crew is fishing out the back with the kites. Eyes are ahead of the water looking for fish that are going to be coming by the boat where you can also, you can catch them while you're kite fishing. Oftentimes you'll see a tailor, they'll fade out and then they'll pop up on your kite baits, you know. Once again the kite baits kind of cut them off on their route. So Yeah, but sometimes we'll swim right by the boat too. We had yeah We had like a school of about eight fish the other day that we could we never got a bite You know, they just faded underneath the boat and didn't pop up on us, which is unfortunate but Very frustrating Yeah, it's uh Yeah, and we were kite fishing and we were hoping they would it would pop up on the baits Katie (19:19.311) That's so cool. Katie (19:31.279) How frustrating. Especially with there being eight of them. That's crazy. Mike Calabrese (19:43.259) just didn't happen there but it's kind of a helpless feeling when something like that happens or same thing if you cast sometimes you can hit a perfect cast on these fish or whatever and they just still don't want to eat it for whatever reason and on to the next one. Yeah they're not all maybe they were caught maybe they were who knows but not interested. Katie (19:55.631) I'll just knock them on the head with it and they won't eat it. Katie (20:05.36) How fascinating. So before we, I want to get into the bait culture a little bit, but before we do that, can you tell me the approximate distance y 'all are drifting? Because that's what you're doing, right? Once you set your kites, you set yourself up to drift down, down the fishing zone, correct? Mike Calabrese (20:25.051) I lost you there for one second, I have repeat that question. Katie (20:28.049) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I want to get into the bait culture, but before we do that, can you tell me a little bit about this fishing zone? So you already said there's a narrow alley in which these fish are migrating in the southern side of Florida. And you're setting up, from what I understand, you set up a drift and you set your kites out and then you drift down sea while fishing for these fish. And how... Like how long is that drift? Like how many miles is this fishing zone that y 'all generally target? Mike Calabrese (21:00.41) Okay, yeah, that's a great question. So, um, so you could drift depending on the wind direction. Obviously, if you have an east wind, you're going to be getting, you know, the waves are going to want to push you shallower. It's all about staying in that depth that the captain feels are your best chances. You know, naturally sailfish, they can be in a hundred feet of water. They could be in 200 feet of water. They can be in 300 feet of water anywhere really, but the captain puts the boat where he thinks they're going to be. Typically we have. North current, which means the water is moving south to north and your boat will be moving north. Now you could, you know, depending on the action, you can ride it out as long as you want. If you're, if you're in the depth that makes you happy, oftentimes you'll catch fish and then the captain will run back and get south again to try to come back over that same stretch of water or even go further south to try to re -intercept that body of fish that just came through. So that's really the only, you know, the way you have to look at it is that these fish are moving north to south, or even if they're holding their ground on a piece of bottom or bait, the water is moving north. So, you know, that's the million dollar question is when to move, when to reset, when to run back, how far to run back, you know, how deep, all that stuff is the real stuff that separates the winners from the losers. Katie (22:29.033) Yeah, so I mean there's a huge tournament culture in South Florida. So when you've got these big events going on, how many boats are fishing this pretty small area? Mike Calabrese (22:42.583) Yeah, so I think most tournaments these days about 50 boats give or take and then the tournaments have boundaries. Some tournaments are based out of a certain inlet. For example, let's say the tournaments out of Palm Beach. They might make the boundary 30 miles in each direction. So you have a 60 mile fishing range. Other tournaments, we have one coming up soon here called the Jimmy Johnson. We also just had one called the Sailfish Challenge. was a big boundary format to where as boats can choose any inlet they want to fish out of. For example, if you're from Miami, you can fish down there or from Palm Beach, you can fish up here, wherever you want to fish, which adds a challenge to it because the days leading up to it is everybody's wondering where the fish are, where's the best fishing. Boats making last minute moves from Miami to Palm Beach the night before, it's all common and vice versa. It's very important to keep your ear to the ground and communicate with other fishermen about what they saw, what they caught, conditions. But yeah, I mean, you know, last week it was, they were biting from Stewart to Key Largo. And you could, yeah, the best fishing was down there south of Ocean Reef. However, there was boats catching 30 fish out here at Jupiter. And... Katie (23:55.832) Wow. Mike Calabrese (24:08.694) There was a tournament a couple days later and everybody was thinking Miami was going to be the spot and it ended up being to the north was where the tournament was won up here. So you have to be fluid. You have to be able to adapt and adjust to the ever changing fishery we have, which changes overnight, unfortunately, you know, because we have the Gulfstream and the water's essentially flying by our coast here, which means different bodies of water coming in and going, you know, frequently. Katie (24:38.202) with different nutrients in it, different levels of float some and all of that. Now, current water temp, all of it. Mike Calabrese (24:38.453) It's hard. That's right. For sure. Mike Calabrese (24:48.629) Just yesterday, or yeah, fished a two day tournament the first day, the water, we saw tons of man o' wars. There was probably some of the most I've ever seen in my life, hundreds. And they were actually grabbing, they would grab your kite baits. If they drifted too closely, you'd have to lift your bait because these man o' wars would find them and get them. And anyhow, saw a pile of them on Friday. Yesterday we go out there and hardly didn't see as many. There wasn't nearly as many. Katie (25:09.21) frustrating. Mike Calabrese (25:18.388) the water color was different you know it's it changes you gotta react and adapt you know it's all part of the challenge yeah it's all part of the challenge Katie (25:25.883) And all the more reason to be fishing consistently during the season to stay competitive. Right? Yeah. So the bait culture down there is pretty specific. Mike Calabrese (25:34.996) For sure, yep. What's that? Mike Calabrese (25:41.364) B. Oh yeah, people are fanatical about me for sure. It's very important. Katie (25:47.484) Well, and which makes sense, but you mentioned herring, gogoli. What's your favorite kind of bait? What do you make sure you have? And how do you make sure that your bait is healthiest for your tournament, your tournaments or your fun fishing? Mike Calabrese (26:04.852) Yep, so basically there's three main baits. You got the Goggle Eyes, Threadfin Herring, or Greenies. Looks like a big pilchard or something, almost like a baby tarpon. And then Spanish Sardines, which are probably the most sought after bait, the sardines. However, they also tend to get bit up a lot by bonitas and other critters. So Goggle Eyes are the main staple. source of bait here. The thing about Goggle Eyes is they're caught at night. So most people end up buying bait from bait guys that go out and do it at night. Very hard to obtain Goggle Eyes sometimes. A lot of times the bait guys even in Palm Beach will trailer their boats all the way to the Keys to catch them in abundance so they can have enough to make it worthwhile to do it. So anyhow, Goggle Eyes, shoot, lately they've been upwards of $200 a dozen here in Palm Beach, which is crazy. Yeah, it used to be, I remember growing up, it was $40 a dozen, and $20 a dozen for Pilchards. Now you're looking at, it was up to 120 for Gogs, and then during tournament season, they've been tough to catch lately. The prices are around $200 a dozen for these things. And those baits, the Goggle Eye's good because, Katie (27:09.695) Dang. Yeah. Mike Calabrese (27:32.529) It's a hardy bait. It's typically a little bigger, probably, you know, eight inches or so, and they're strong. They're a great bait for your long kite baits, which is the furthest one from the boat. It's got the most wind effect on that kite bait, blowing your line in the air. So you want to, on your long bait, typically you want a big hardy bait. Goggolize are known for just kicking their tails off and being, putting out good vibes and strong, you know, strong. vibrations and splashing. So definitely goggle eyes. If there's only one bait you could have, it'd probably be a goggle eye. Lately we've also had access to threadfin herrings, which are like I said, like a big pilcher greenies. Those are all over the place too, from Costa Rica to Louisiana, obviously in Texas, I'm sure. Those are great sailfish baits. We call them scale baits. Definitely more fragile, a little more sensitive to you know when you bridle your bait you gotta be more careful with the scale baits you don't want to knock the scales off of them so there's that fine line of you know how hard you can grip your bait versus squeezing it to death to you know put a needle through it and sew it on but that's all part of the part of it is to keep your baits as nice and healthy as possible when you can get them in the water with that being said also people will obtain their bait early on and they will pen it up we have we make bait pens Sometimes they're plastic round floating wells. Sometimes we have cages that we sink for goggle eyes. And then we feed our baits. They have pellet food. Some people, I've seen people have timers with automatic fish feeders. So if they're not there one day, their bait's still gonna get fed or whatever. Of course, if you can get some fresh scraps of bonitas or anything like that, it's always good to feed your bait. So. Just like any living thing, the better their diet is, the more healthy they're going to be. And when you put them out there on the hook, hopefully they're going to last long and splash around. Healthy bait, strong bait. So that's, yeah. I mean, the best boats, they typically will have their bait a long time ahead of a tournament. They'll have it all fed up and seasoned. And you know. Katie (29:37.957) the better they're gonna perform. Yeah, make a scene. Fight, make a scene. Mike Calabrese (29:57.007) keep accurate quantities of what they got, how many they bring each day, because it's a grind to catch bait and to keep it. It's at least half the battle on this thing for sure, is having good bait for sure. Katie (30:11.174) It's a sail fishing tournament and a sail fishing culture, but it's really just we're keeping a bunch of bait healthy and seeing whose bait can outperform the other. Didn't you? Mike Calabrese (30:21.261) Yeah, somewhat. I mean, ultimately, you got to be in the right place, in my opinion. There's no substitute for being on top of the fish. But yes, bait is important, for sure. Just like trolling, you know, when you're doing your balihooze and prepping your balihooze and, you know, some of them the head breaks and you got a batch where they're weak, you know, you say, shoot, you know, this isn't good. Your color on the tape, you know, you want to put your best bait forward, for sure. Katie (30:33.862) Didn't you tell me that - Mike Calabrese (30:52.309) and any fishing. Katie (30:52.392) When these guys are feeding their baits, bonita, fish, something that's gonna give them a healthier appeal because it's what they're eating kind of in the wild, right? They get that same nutrients. Didn't you tell me that they have like their own like dock bait blenders and how does that process work? Mike Calabrese (31:15.309) Yeah, I mean, it depends on everybody has their own way of doing things. I personally have a blender in my dock box that I'll, when I catch bonitas, I'll cut bonita strips. I'll save those for wahoo fishing, planer fishing, but you can take the meat and it's that good red meat and it's got a lot of good nutrients, I'm sure. But yeah, I'll take that. I'll blend it up with salt water. And to me, that's easier than just cutting it. We're trying to... make life as easy as possible to some degree. But yeah, the blender works well for me. Blend up some scrap meats, even if you got, you know, we'll save like the roe from Mahi's, the roe. Any kind of scrap meat is good, good fresh food for the fish and yeah, they'll eat it. Katie (31:55.593) Nice. Katie (32:02.857) That's a great way to use all sides of the fish that you're catching and put it back into the sport recreationally. I love that. Mike Calabrese (32:09.26) Yeah, it's all work and ultimately the hard work hopefully will pay off for you. Doesn't always, but having good bait is, it's one of the things we can control. So we're gonna put, we're gonna do it. Katie (32:24.489) What about the sardines? You spoke a little bit about the scales, the goggle eyes, and then what about the sardines? Mike Calabrese (32:30.924) Sardines are great. We've had definitely had some of our best fishing typically to the south in the Florida Keys or if the fish are tailing a sardines a great bait to cast at a fish because of they'll stay on the surface when they hit the water as opposed to like a goggle eye will want to swim down. Sardines are just very elusive, they're very hard to obtain. Katie (32:50.633) one down. Mike Calabrese (32:57.419) people go great distances to try to catch them and have them in their arsenal. And like I said, it's a great bait. There have been tournaments won on sardines indeed, but I haven't had sardines this year. Up north here in Palm Beach and stuff, it seems like a Goggle Eyes is a great bait. But when you get down towards the Keys there and Ocean Reef, you know, there's... We can catch sardines here too, certain times of year. In the summer, they're all over the place in Jupiter. It's all you want. This time of year, they're not around. Some boats, like I said, they'll travel. The programs that do this full -time, they'll have their bait boat. They'll have a center console. If they have a sport fish boat, they'll have a secondary center console that they'll go run around in. Katie (33:30.721) Interesting. Mike Calabrese (33:50.635) leave out of Fort Lauderdale, run to Miami or beyond to catch sardines, bring them back, pen them up for a month before the tournament. That's the extent people will go to have sardines. And whether they pay or not, time can only tell. There's been times, we used to fish a lot in Key West, in the sailfish tournament in Key West. And... We would spend so much time catching sardines before the tournament. Even on a, there was a lay day, we'd fish, you know, we'd fish three days in a row and then have a lay day. And we'd go run 60 miles to catch sardines on a lay day. And sometimes we'd only catch a dozen, you know, and a lot of effort into that. And sometimes, you know, in hindsight, it's like, oh, maybe we didn't need them or maybe we didn't need to do that. But, you know, once again, if you can control something and you make the effort, you're trying to do it to have the right bait. Katie (34:31.369) Oh my gosh. Mike Calabrese (34:46.859) Yeah, so the sardines Definitely one of the sailfishes favorite food because if you go down there to like Isla, Moheres, Mexico Which is also in the Atlantic or the Caribbean here same fish essentially They're there feasting on sardines. That's that's the predominant bait That brings the sailfish to that area massive schools of sardines and cigar minnows, but Sailfish love it's I would say it's like they're probably one of their favorite natural foods to eat. For sure. Yeah. Katie (35:20.105) Man, that's so cool. Okay, I have a question for you because, and I want to make sure I understand this correctly. So the Isla season is December, January, February, right? Mike Calabrese (35:32.213) Pretty much, yeah. Katie (35:33.193) And then we have the South Florida season that's February, March, April. Mike Calabrese (35:41.715) Lately, yes, in the past, tournaments used to start in October, November, and they still do some of them, but for whatever reason, the season seems to have been shifting later on here. The last few years, the best bite has occurred towards the end of February, early March. Maybe it's just when the water temperatures finally get cool enough to the north where the fish have to come down at that point. Katie (36:07.369) Yeah, so that's my question. So how are those, if those fish are moving north to south, but the season is earlier in Isla, how is that working? Like are they, are they going up? Are they going north and then coming back down? Like are they circulating? Do we know what those fish are doing? Do you understand my question? Did I make that sense? Mike Calabrese (36:26.955) I don't think we know. I think it's a great question. It's the million dollar question once again that even the wealthiest of people and best fishermen don't have the answers to. But I would say those are different bodies of fish. I feel like those fish down in the Yucatan area, they probably spend their majority of their time down that way somewhere, perhaps into the Gulf of Mexico in the Campeche or whatever. Katie (36:53.321) The southern gulf, yeah. Uh huh. Mike Calabrese (36:54.983) Yeah, like the rest of the year, wherever the sardines probably go is where they go. But yeah, I mean, there's been tags. I don't know if the Billfish Foundation has ever had a tag return from Mexico to South Florida or vice versa. I'm sure it's happened. But yeah, and then also you get fish off the Carolinas. South Carolina had great sailfish and I think in maybe like October or... Katie (37:10.577) How interesting? We'll have to ask. Mike Calabrese (37:23.671) September this year, late season, you know, great sail fishing for them up north of us here. So I think we're seeing, I think the U .S. has an East Coast population of sailfish and then perhaps the ones down there in the Yucatan are different fish, I would say. Not, yeah. Katie (37:41.329) Yeah, the ones we get a general, like a pretty good sailfish bite sometimes in the southern Gulf of Mexico out of South Texas. I want to say late July, August, September it can get pretty good. So that's really interesting. Yeah, I didn't know if that's something that we know. Mike Calabrese (37:50.095) Mm -hmm. Yep. Mike Calabrese (38:00.551) It could be those fish. I don't think anybody does. I think it's, yeah, it's scientists that study the water, plankton, chlorophyll, temperature, those factors are probably where they are. Katie (38:17.361) Because I think it's interesting that your speculation, your hypothesis is that they're two different bodies of fish because from what I do understand is that sailfish, they don't really go very far from what we know on tagging data and tagging research. So, right? So, Mike Calabrese (38:34.311) Right. Yeah, I mean, I would think so. Like, yeah. Yeah. Katie (38:39.121) Yeah, that's super interesting. As opposed to like blue marlin, which have crossed the ocean. They like cross ocean basins, not as much as bluefin tuna or as regularly as bluefin tuna. But they're all considered highly migratory species, but their migration vary. And I think that it's interesting that these fish are so small. The sailfish are the, I mean, I believe is the fastest fish in the ocean. Right. Do you know that? Mike Calabrese (38:49.127) Right. Mike Calabrese (39:06.375) I think that's what they say and it makes sense, you know, based upon their size of their tail with how thin they are and their mass. You know, they're thinner than a marlin so they probably slide through the water a lot easier, I'd say. So yeah, they're neat. They're crazy when you hook one, especially, you know, kite fishing, trolling, whatever, however you hook it. But like I said, they can be out here to the left a couple hundred feet and then next minute they're going the other way and you got a big belly in your line. jumping all over the ocean. Katie (39:37.361) It kind of reminds me of the difference between a big blue marlin and a little blue marlin. Like those little blues, they'll just, they're so agile. They've got all that just spunk of a marlin, but with a lot more agility. So I want to go a little bit into trolling. Am I wrong when I say that from what I understand, north of Stewart, Florida, your fishing teams start trolling? Mike Calabrese (39:51.109) Yeah, yeah, it's fun. Katie (40:06.993) instead of kite fishing, is that right? Mike Calabrese (40:09.829) Yeah, that's pretty pretty accurate. There's some boats that'll go... So if you look at Florida on a map or a chart, you know, Palm Beach is where... North of Palm Beach is where our coastline starts to jog off to the west, to the northwest. However, the shelf pretty much continues straight north. So with that being said, Palm Beach is very close. To get to 100 feet of water, you're looking at, you know, whatever, a mile, let's call it. Jupiter here a little north about 10 miles north of Palm Beach you've got to go about 3 miles because the coast starts to jog northwest there. Stewart, you're going further 5 -6 miles. And then Fort Pierce even further. So anyhow, the shelf broadens the further north you go. There's more area where the fish can be. Palm Beach in the south, very compressed, very narrow lane of 100 -200 feet of water. up that way, Stewart, Fort Peterson North, spread out. Fish can be, you know, all over the place. A lot of potential habitat. So guys, you know, they troll for them because they can cover ground. And it's also his historical tradition. It's how they were raised doing it. I will say now you're seeing a few more guys out of Stewart starting to kite fish. They're realizing that it's quite effective. It's a little bit more relaxing. way to fish. Let's say you have a charter or a guest on the boat, you're essentially kind of sitting still. It's a little more enjoyable in that you don't have to hold the reel, you're not holding the pressure of the bait, dragging it seven, eight knots along or whatever on your thumb. You're sitting still and you're watching your baits. But yeah, the trolling thing is essentially due to the geography, I'd say, up further north there. The guy's got to cover more ground. And yeah, but you're seeing more guys starting to kite fish out that way too now. Katie (42:09.521) I find it interesting that the kite fishing is starting to kind of spread up that northern area. That's interesting. I didn't see it. Mike Calabrese (42:16.87) People are realizing, you know, why not make my life easier and catch more fish for my clients, if you will. I mean, I heard a guy, a steward... Katie (42:26.129) So long as getting live bait is not an issue. Because... Mike Calabrese (42:29.99) Correct, correct. Yeah, and it can be an issue. Stuart typically has good bait availability. They have a lot of those threadfin greenies up there. You know, boats, they can go out and catch them in the morning on their way out. And, you know, it's, especially if you've got a three or four foot sea, you know, kite fishing is going to be more comfortable as well for folks that aren't, you know, if they're chartering a boat or something like that. It's more comfortable, more productive. better chance of hooking a fish basically being that it's a live bait that they're you know the boats not moving forward it's easier in some regards it's also challenging in other ways as well compared to trolling but like I said I heard a Stuart captain on the radio the other day talking about how he man I can't believe we just figured this kite thing out you know lately here it's can't believe we haven't been doing it longer what a pleasure it is to fish kites. Katie (43:06.14) Ah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's interesting. Katie (43:25.756) Aww, that's super cool. Okay, that's new. Interesting. Um... Mike Calabrese (43:27.686) So yeah, I mean, well, I feel like people, yeah, I feel like a lot of guys disparage it because they don't know how to do it. And it's a fear thing, you know, but the reality is I feel like if you want to be a good fisherman, you should be good at all types of fishing and yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's fun. Katie (43:45.009) Exactly and try, try it. Who knows maybe you don't like it, maybe it doesn't work for you, maybe you have a different theory elsewhere, but you're never gonna actually know if you don't give it a go. So. Mike Calabrese (43:57.254) I think one of the hard things with kite fishing, sorry to interrupt, is that all three of your lines are on the kite line. So let's say your long bait gets a bite. Let's say you get a kingfish, chops your bait in half. Now you've got to bring in all three rods to change that one bait. So if you're the only mate in the cockpit, kite fishing can be a nightmare because it takes hands, it takes help. If you've got a good crew and some good help, it's all good. Katie (44:00.253) No, you're good. Mike Calabrese (44:25.765) You know trolling you get a bite you're just dealing with that one rod reel it in put a new bait on send it back out kite fishing you gotta bring the kite in bring all three rods in you know there's ways to work around that but if you're short -handed it can be an absolute nightmare especially if you got a lot of critters biting bonitas kingfish whatever you know you need help seaweed as well absolutely yeah you can get bait grass on your bait and then if you can't get it off you gotta start over again. Katie (44:44.126) What about grass? Is that an issue? Mike Calabrese (44:55.271) It's a pain for sure. Yeah. But I will say I like seaweed for fishing because, you know, lately we haven't seen much seaweed all winter long. Now there's a little bit of scattered grass in town and the sailfish are here. I think it's got something to do with the whole basis of the food chain. The seaweed for sure. Plankton. Yeah, it starts with the plankton and that and bait and sailfish follow. Katie (44:56.255) That is a pain. Seaweed's always a pain, no matter what. So for... Katie (45:25.536) attracting the bigger fish. Wow, that makes me happy to hear that. Is the seaweed you're seeing, what's the word I'm looking for? Is it all condensed? Is it all sitting together? Is it floating together? Is it pretty spread out? Mm -hmm. Mike Calabrese (45:27.815) That's right. Mike Calabrese (45:37.862) It's scattered grass as we call it. It's live, the bright live sargassum weed, which is a good indicator as well that it's alive. Saw all those man o' wars. Yeah, it's little small clumps and I've noticed it anywhere I fish, up to Ocean City, Maryland, all that when you're getting bit, you're trying to figure out is there anything to it and oftentimes I'll notice bits of seaweed in the water. It's good thing. Katie (46:05.632) So you feel like when you're, you feel like when in your experience when you're seeing pretty consistent seaweed, you're seeing more bites. Did I, did I surmise that correctly? Mike Calabrese (46:15.239) It depends, I guess. I'm not. I mean in the summertime here sometimes we get giant clumps and mats of seaweed, you know can walk on it. That I don't want to fish in, you that's not what I'm talking about. It seems to be when you got that good live water with flying fish and you know whatever the bait, whatever the plankton source is but you know it's almost, I just noticed the other day we were catching sailfish and there's little bits of little small pieces of scattered grass around and I've... I said, man, I've seen this before when we've been getting bit. I've seen this before. So that's just how I think. Katie (46:52.352) Is that blue water what you're looking for too? Do you see a difference in the water clarity down there? Or up there? Over there? Mike Calabrese (47:00.486) Uh, yeah, I mean, definitely, definitely water in color is a thing. However, just when you think you got that figured out, you know, the sailfish will spin it up on you. Uh, last week the water was quite greenish. It was, it was green, blue, green, but more green and blue and they were snapping in it, you know, and, uh, when it was more about the weather those days, it was, it got very cold, you know, here in South Florida, that's what it takes to get the fish going is that. Katie (47:07.839) Hmm. Mike Calabrese (47:29.446) cold, cold weather. Yeah. Yeah. Katie (47:29.504) Cold snap. How cool. That's a nice little nugget of information right there. So I want to get a little bit into trolling, troll fishing. If the listener doesn't know anything about trolling, and I think you did a great job explaining the kites, can you give us just a little synopsis on what trolling is and what parts of the world do that? Mike Calabrese (47:36.134) I was saying... Uh huh. Mike Calabrese (47:51.566) Yeah, trolling, probably the most popular way to fish obviously throughout the world. And the last few years guys have gotten to kind of go in more to bait as opposed to lures. Obviously big marlin guys still will pull artificial lures for blue marlin with J hooks. But what we're seeing is everybody essentially fishing the same spread essentially, which is swimming, balihoo, chin weighted, circle hooks, light tackle, lighter leaders. you know dredges, squid chain teasers and then from there you can you know customize you know everybody's got their own little things of what color squid chain or what color islanders on the dredge or whatever. I think you just got to drive over the fish personally but uh yeah trolling trolling is a thing and it's fun the re I like trolling because fishing teasers is fun getting fish behind a teaser. teasing them up to the back of the boat is the most exciting thing I'd say in fishing a blue marlin on a teaser that just as you've I'm sure you've seen it a million times follow it to the back of the boat that the teaser is hanging from the outrigger it's still trying to eat it in the air swimming under it and it's it's just super exciting so that that's that's probably my favorite thing for sure is a blue marlin on a teaser but then you know yeah Costa Rica you know you're getting a bunch of sailfish bites as well on a teaser. Katie (49:03.103) Yeah. Katie (49:07.267) You can't beat it. Mike Calabrese (49:18.862) And it's just fun. It's fun being able to see the bite, to feed the fish 15 feet off the transom, the art of hooking a fish, letting them eat it, letting the reel roll, pushing the drag up. It's all fun. Missing the fish. A lot of misses. Katie (49:37.476) And it's very different because, you know what I'm saying? Missing the fish, having them come back for just the head of the ballyhoo if they're real hungry. Does that count as a miss? No. But if you get it on the Sand Cocho, you did not miss. So, shoot, I got distracted. Yeah, and you can cover quite a bit more ground trolling and the differentiation is, you know, well, there's a lot of differences, but. Mike Calabrese (49:46.092) Yep. If you catch it. Exactly. But yeah, trolling is great. Mike Calabrese (50:01.796) Yes. Katie (50:07.365) When you're kite fishing, you're live baiting. So you touched on this a little bit earlier, Mike, when you said that it's easier, well, relatively, it all, nuances aside, that when you have a live bait and you feed the fish, it's one thing that's very different from when you're trolling and you get a bite on a sailfish and you have to feed the fish. Can you, like, I feel like that's what you said. I've never live baited. fed a sailfish, so I don't know. Can you explain why one would be more complicated or what the differences would be if they're both equally complicated? Mike Calabrese (50:45.634) So yeah, they both have their challenges. The trolling bit is like the boat's moving ahead. So you're holding the reel in free spool with your thumb on the reel and there's pressure on the spool with your thumb because of your holding your bait. And once again, some guys are using bigger chin weights. So down here in Costa Rica we're fishing like a three quarter ounce chin weight. That's more pressure on your thumb when you're fishing, when you're in free spool waiting for the bite. So if you get a blind bite, you don't see it coming, you know, it goes zero to 60 pretty darn quick, which can lead to a lot of backlashes, blow ups to the reel, burnt thumbs, all that good stuff. That's what's harder about trolling is the speed of the boat and the fact that you're already holding the spool with pressure with your thumb. So when something pulls on it and you don't let go, you don't make that transition soft enough. you get a backlash essentially the reel will blow up on you or whatever and that's the hard part about trolling is that 0 to 60 in one second you know kite fishing yeah a long rigger bite you know let's face it you don't see them all coming you know and to do it you know you're going to have your best chance holding the rod with the reel and free spool clicker off you know if you're Katie (51:55.209) Cause they can be sneaky. Mike Calabrese (52:11.426) able to do that with as many anglers if you have enough anglers. But yeah, the boat moving ahead, that transition to letting the spool roll freely, well, after you had your thumb already on it and take your thumb off, it can get dicey pretty quick with the troll stuff. Kite fishing, challenging in other ways. So we're fishing that cork above a 15 foot leader with a lead on the line above the snap swivel. The purpose of the lead in kite fishing is to add weight to your whole thing so that the wind, because you have all that fishing line in the air, which the wind is blowing, which is wanting to pull your bait out of the water basically. So. Katie (52:53.514) Is the lead above the cork or below the cork? Mike Calabrese (52:56.673) Well, some people put it above, typically it's right below the cork. You'll slide, you know, got a bimini twist, you'll put a solid stainless ring, which is what goes in the clip, the ring. Then you got your cork, then you got your weight. And then the weight, the amount of weight is based upon how much wind you have those days. But that's a whole nother factor in, so you're kite fishing, you're sitting still, essentially, you're drifting, you're bumping into the wind, into the waves, or whatever you're doing. But you get a bite, you see your cork start to walk off or dot, you know, something funky is going on, you're getting a bite. You can't just dump it because you'll drop the weight on the fish's head. It's not the same as trolling in that, you know, if you go to like a full free spool, you're going to drop that weight in the water and then the fish is definitely going to feel that going on. So kite fishing, a lot of your fish, they come up jumping. So you're getting a bite. You're doing everything perfect, you're a little bit of thumb, just minimal to let the fish walk off and not feel any different pressure you're trying to do. Oftentimes they come up jumping, which is the challenge, which is where things go wrong typically. It's a cause of panic for a lot of people. What do I do now? The fish is jumping all over the place. Your line is still in the clip. And Wendy, the big... Katie (54:06.093) Mm -hmm. Katie (54:21.806) Are you at full strike? Mike Calabrese (54:24.353) No, so this is the question is when do you engage the reel? When do you attempt to pop your clip and get tight to the fish? So, me personally, if a fish comes up jumping, I actually at that point I want to put my weight down in the water because that way the fish is dragging the line and the weight behind it. If it's jumping, that line is always gonna be coming out down the body of the fish behind it. And you're putting... Katie (54:53.743) That makes perfect sense. Mike Calabrese (54:54.154) and it's dragging belly into water. Yeah, so if you have a fish jumping in the air and you try to pop your clip, you're pulling on it from above and that's usually when you'll pull the hook out or pull the bait out. I think when they come up jumping, I think they got stung with the hook. I think the hook point has stung them. It might not be all the way through the barb or through the corner, but they're stung and... Katie (55:21.453) Mm -hmm. Mike Calabrese (55:23.009) That's why they're jumping like crazy. And at that point, you know, I've been, I've been doing a little more angling this year than ever before actually. And, uh, um, you know, I will wait until the fish settles down before attempting to pop out of the clip and get tight to the fish off the rod. You want to, you want, it's all angles, essentially. It's all angles. And yeah, you don't want to pull, you know, up or pull, you know, you want the fish to be swimming away from you. Katie (55:42.543) That's so interesting. Mike Calabrese (55:52.385) down in the water, you want to get that low angle on coming tight and letting that circle hook find its home. So... Katie (56:00.368) Because like, because when you're trolling, if you get bit and you're feeding your fish and your fish comes up jumping before you engage the strike, the drag, more often than not, you're going to lose the fish and you have to get your rod tip down, keep that line in the water as much as possible, which is exactly, essentially the same principle you just said. So I love that. I love that makes total sense. But what a how interesting, you know, thinking about it with the with the line up in this in the. Mike Calabrese (56:07.425) Mm -hmm. Yep. You're not going to catch it. Yeah. Mike Calabrese (56:18.689) Same premise. Mike Calabrese (56:23.486) Yeah. Katie (56:30.224) in the air, in the sky with the kite still, because it's still in the clip when you get eaten, and then with that weight, man, that was cool. I'm really, yeah, I'm really excited you said that. Mike Calabrese (56:32.288) Right. Yep. Correct. Yep. angles. And then you have the weight too, like I was saying, it's neat. It's all physics, it's all geometry. And once again, you have the weight on your kite line, which is totally different than trolling. If that fish is jumping a hundred miles an hour, he's towing that weight and all that belly of the line through the water. People don't realize like you got to back off your drag. There's a lot more force and pressure down near the hook on the leader than most people. probably recognize when that fish is going 60 miles an hour through the water. Katie (57:12.273) Yeah, and especially like the more the more line you have in the water the more pressure there is. Mike Calabrese (57:17.791) more belly, more drag, yep, depending on if it's a windy day, you have ounce and a half of lead instead of a half ounce, you know, that's a bigger egg sinker, that's more drag in the water. So this is where the angling skill would come into play as far as not breaking fish off or pulling hooks and stuff like that, pulling the bait out of their mouth. Yeah. Katie (57:26.162) That's a lot. Katie (57:40.916) Man, that's cool. Time has flown by. I did not realize we've already been talking for about an hour. I really want to touch on, you mentioned teaser fishing and that it's your favorite too. My personal favorite is Blue Marlin Bait and Switch, right? I love having teasers, no hooks in the water, two dredges in the water, which can be considered, some people call them teasers as well, submerged teasers. And then to pitch a Mike Calabrese (57:48.511) Great, yeah. Mike Calabrese (57:58.431) Absolutely. Katie (58:10.101) baited, like a hooked bait out to the marlin after you take the teaser away. Can you, I know that, I mean, firetails is one of my favorite artificial dredge baits, if not the number one to me on our operation. We had at, in the mag season this last year, we had a Tinker dredge, Tinker mackerel dredge from your new firetail strips and absolutely loved that thing. It was so rad. Can you tell our listeners a little bit? Mike Calabrese (58:29.503) Mm -hmm. Mike Calabrese (58:35.232) Thank you. Katie (58:37.429) about your firetails project, because I want to hear all about it. Mike Calabrese (58:39.615) Yeah, thank you very much. So I'm also a mate. I've been a mate for 20 years on private sport fish boats. Captain as well. However, I've only had a couple. I've stuck with my jobs. I've had great jobs, worked for great captains, and I've had longevity in my jobs, which is still a mate. However, I like to work efficiently and smartly. We used to go to Isla Mujeres fishing for sailfish. That was my first real. I you know I did all the other travels with the ship and all that down the Pacific I never I never knew about dredge fishing You know I wish I could go back with what I know now honestly however yeah, so I get down there to Mexico and I get to learn this stuff and You know a lot of people think you know if you have all mullet on your dredge you're gonna do better right so we're all Ballyhoo dredge whatever natural dredge equals better fishing I I I learned that's not the case in my opinion. Being in the right place, presenting your baits on the right angle, you know, tacks with the sea, all those sort of things, being in the right place, in my opinion, are far more important than what you have on your dredge. And even your hook baits are far more important as far as how they're presenting and swimming. So anyhow, we used to fish a ton, rig a bunch of bait, and you know. We would fish many days in a row. After fishing, I'd have to have dinner on a boat. It never ended, it was long hours. And we were fishing, yeah, back then there was rubber shads, which are, you know, they look great, they work great. But durability wise, like, you know, they get a bite, the tail rip off. And so people started using the mud flaps, which once again, very cool. I personally... Katie (01:00:14.488) No, it never ends. Katie (01:00:31.705) And the mud flaps are essentially for the listener that doesn't know it's a tuna silhouette. So it looks like a tuna swimming from below, from the low, if a marlin looks up at it. Mike Calabrese (01:00:38.8) Correct. Right. Yep, they got the pectoral fins, which is great. You know, got a great silhouette. However, I like action. I like, I feel like especially if you're going to go under the water, actions is going to help you. You know, if you, if you're pulling something on the surface, you know, marlin lure, something that bubbles, makes smoke, it's easier to trick a fish when they're looking up at something. But when they can size something up from next to it underwater, you know, I personally want my baits to wiggle. So anyway, I started thinking outside the box, thinking of how I can make... Yep. You're good. Katie (01:01:12.22) Well hold on, hold on, pause real quick. Pause real quick, I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I want to make sure that the listener knows a dredge is essentially, it's pulled underwater, a couple feet underwater, and it's designed to simulate a school of bait. And these fish, these billfish specifically, they're visual feeders, and they really like to go after, just like all things in the wild, they'll go after the weakest link. So if you see a school of bait swimming, Mike Calabrese (01:01:23.196) Mm -hmm. Katie (01:01:39.868) and then you see one bait swimming behind it, AKA a hooked ballyhoo, that fish is more likely to go off of the flat line, the hooked ballyhoo, and feed off of there, right? Which is attached to a fishing rod. And hopefully an angler holding the reel, like we were talking about earlier. So that's what these dredges are. So go on, Mike, you started thinking. Mike Calabrese (01:01:45.34) Flatline. Mike Calabrese (01:01:52.734) Yep. Yep. Mm -hmm. Mike Calabrese (01:01:59.421) Yeah, so, you know, your boat obviously is not supposed to be out there in the natural environment. It's a man -made thing, giant boat, propeller spinning. The fish will swim right up to the back of a boat, right? I mean, they're curious, but the boat is the biggest teaser is what I'm saying. And then the next thing they'll see hopefully are the dredges, which are closest to the boat in the wash there, outside the wash. But yeah, we're mimicking a school of bait and you know. Katie (01:02:10.685) making a bunch of noise. Mike Calabrese (01:02:29.18) If you want to have 36 baits on your dredge, it's a heck of a lot of work. It's a heck of a lot of money in mullet or ballyhoo that ultimately don't even last all day per se. You might even have to change them. It's a ton of work, which is okay, but sometimes if you've got to fish 12 days in a row, there's different influences. So we would mix in artificials. I just got to thinking there's got to be a better way than... Katie (01:02:38.685) They don't. Katie (01:02:48.189) It's brutal. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of money. Mike Calabrese (01:02:59.226) existing products that are available. So I just you know started playing around there was a canvas shop behind where my boat was docked in Fort Lauderdale and You know that guy helped me out with like some stitching and sewing and stuff and yeah, we came up with fabric fabric strips essentially that You know, they swim very well We got color They're lightweight So therefore dredge fishing used to be a big pain. You'd break dredges all the time. You'd always be fixing broken stuff, fixing washed out baits. Now... Katie (01:03:35.102) And the more remote you are, the harder it is to get quality gear. Yeah. Mm -hmm. Mike Calabrese (01:03:37.948) Yeah, I mean, freezers, now it's just gotten easier and less breakage, less wear and tear on stuff. And it's making

In this podcast episode, Katie interviews Chloe Mikles, a PhD student studying bluefin tuna. They discuss Chloe's research on bluefin tuna and blue marlin movement ecology and population structures. Chloe explains the process of tagging fish and the importance of tracking their migration patterns. Katie and Chloe also talk about the bluefin tuna fishery in North Carolina and the international management of bluefin tuna populations around the world. Chloe shares her background and interest in studying bluefin tuna and discusses her PhD work on population differentiation. They also touch on the handling and care of tagged fish and the differences between handling bluefin tuna and billfish. In this conversation, Katie and Chloe discuss the tagging and tracking of marlin and tuna throughout the Atlantic Ocean. They explore the use of satellite tags and archival tags to collect data on the fish's behavior, including their location, depth, and temperature, and why it is important. They also discuss the challenges of tag recovery and the importance of collaboration with fishermen. The conversation highlights the physiological adaptations of bluefin tuna and their exceptional ability to cross the ocean. The rebound of the bluefin tuna population is also discussed, along with the importance of fisheries management and the economic impact of the fishery. Chloe offers advice for young scientists, emphasizing the importance of following one's passion and staying open to opportunities.   Takeaways   Chloe Mikles is a PhD student studying bluefin tuna and blue marlin movement ecology and population structures. Tagging fish is an important part of Chloe's research to track their migration patterns and understand population differentiation. The bluefin tuna fishery in North Carolina is regulated by size limits and quotas, and the fish are harvested for commercial purposes. International collaboration is crucial for the management of bluefin tuna populations, as they are highly migratory and cross the jurisdictions of many nations. Proper handling and care of tagged fish, such as minimizing air exposure and swimming the fish before release, help reduce mortality rates. Satellite tags and archival tags are used to track the behavior of marlin and tuna, providing data on their location, depth, and temperature. Tag recovery missions can be challenging, as the tags are small and can be difficult to locate in the vast ocean.   Bluefin tuna are endothermic fish, able to regulate their body temperature and withstand a wide range of temperatures. Foraging hotspots and oceanographic conditions play a role in the feeding patterns and migration of bluefin tuna. Collaboration with fishermen is crucial for successful research and fisheries management, as they have valuable knowledge and observations of the fishery. The rebound of the bluefin tuna population demonstrates the effectiveness of strict management regulations and the importance of sustainable fishing practices, despite the many challenges that can be derived from these efforts.   Find Chloe on instagram at @coastal_chloe ----more---- TRANSCRIPT   Katie (00:22.905) Hey, what's up you guys? Welcome to the Katie C Sawyer podcast. I'm sitting here with Chloe Mikles, a remarkable young woman that I have been fan-girling over on the internet for years now. Chloe, thank you so much for being here with me. Chloe (00:37.698) Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I feel like likewise, I've been fangirling over you for years too. So it's always fun to sit down and talk with you. Katie (00:45.849) That's so sweet. I really appreciate it. All right, you guys, Chloe is a PhD candidate at Stanford University, working with Dr. Barbara Block, a legend, studying bluefin tuna and blue marlin, movement ecology and population structures. Chloe, can you tell our listeners just like a brief synopsis of what that means? Chloe (01:07.882) Yes, so yeah, we oftentimes get caught up with like tossing in a lot of scientific jargon with our work. So Basically, I am in graduate school and for my dissertation work. I am learning from my advisor Barb Block and I am doing everything from going out into the field to tagging the fish which is the most fun part and probably what we'll talk the most about and then reading a bunch of papers to the scientific literature and I do some lab work as well, and then it all ends up, the culmination of the PhD is basically writing a bunch of scientific papers that summarize our findings. Katie (01:47.477) So what kind of questions are you asking about these populations? Chloe (01:53.258) So you can start off like very, you can go from very simple to very complex, basically, these questions. The most basic question is, we're putting tags on animals to see where they go. And you can make that more and more and more complex. So for example, from Marlin in North Carolina, blue marlin have been tagged all over the world, but not that many have been tagged off the coast of North Carolina. So by focusing efforts regionally in different locations, we can get a better idea of where the fish that pass through there go. And basically like if their migration patterns are different, if there are different populations of fish that are traveling elsewhere and just trying to learn more and more about these fish because it's so hard to study the ocean. I mean, it's not like, you know, a deer or a mountain lion or something where you can actually like watch where they go and track them or, you know, put a radio color on them and see where they go. The ocean is really hard to study. Everything's underwater. Everything's innately then more cryptic. Um, the technology is much more difficult to actually get something that can track animals underwater. So the more tags that we put out and the more data that we collect, it's like, we're constantly learning more about these fish every single time. Katie (03:07.065) really love that you just like compared the ocean towards land mammals and land predators out there and animals that we've been studying and trying to manage for a long time. We still have so far to go to properly manage our wildlife on land and the ocean is that much more difficult to do. So we'll get into that a little bit a little later because I want to really touch on what you're doing and what kind of questions and answers we're getting from that. But for the sake of Chloe (03:18.536) Mm-hmm. Chloe (03:22.764) Right. Chloe (03:26.322) Exactly. Chloe (03:32.415) Yeah. Katie (03:36.979) I'm a blue marlin girl. Let's focus our energy on the bluefin tuna because it's just there's such fascinating animals and I have so many questions for you. So first off let's start with where you started. Where did you grow up? Chloe (03:38.982) I know. Cool. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chloe (03:55.074) So I grew up in North Carolina and that is, yeah, that's a big reason why I've chose to study these fish for my PhD. So my family had a place on the coast of the Southern Outer Banks. And I just grew up there always being so fascinated by the ocean. And then kind of like in my most formative years when I was an undergrad and like right out of college, I made, you know, I made some of my best friends in my life and was fishing constantly. And... that reason, like, I love animals. I have always been passionate about studying them. It probably could have been anything, but the fact that, like, in those years I became so obsessed with offshore fishing, that's, yeah, that really did it. I know. Yeah. So... Katie (04:38.381) I got chicken skin. I feel that. I feel that on so many levels. So you did your undergrad at Cornell, right? You had a, didn't you have a full ride scholarship swimming? Chloe (04:51.17) So I did swim there for four years. The Ivy League actually doesn't provide like athletic scholarships, which is interesting. Yeah, but yes. So I swam at Cornell for four years. I majored in animal science. My original plan was to be a vet because I loved animals. And then I was doing a couple of internships with North Carolina State University and their Marine Station on the coast, actually working with both like fisheries biologists and Marine veterinarians. Katie (04:53.111) No big deal. Chloe (05:21.038) And I was like, this is so cool. Like I didn't realize that there was a career where you can actually study the ocean. Like I was getting paid as an intern. I mean, not much, but I was getting paid as an intern to go offshore and tag Mahi. I was like, this is so much fun. This is so cool. Um, and then as far as bluefin tuna, um, I just saw firsthand how important that fishery was to the local community. And it was like this amazing seasonal thing where every winter, Katie (05:35.441) Yeah. Chloe (05:50.994) It's like everyone would be commercial fishing for them. Like you would get your hardcore commercial fishermen who fish all year round fishing for bluefin tuna. But then you would get people who just do different jobs, um, take off weeks to partake in the commercial bluefin fishery for a couple of weeks. And yeah, it's a really different, I think it's a very unique commercial fishery. It's very different from most places in the country and the world. Um, it's a very short season, but Katie (06:07.493) That's fascinating. Chloe (06:19.934) I saw how much money it brought in to the local community, how excited people were, like, you know, there'd be little kids coming to see the bluefin brought in. And it was just like this, and it coincides with, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas. So it's like this holiday season, just an extra excitement to the holiday season. Katie (06:39.013) Definitely. Tell us a little bit. So there's three populations of bluefin. There's the Atlantic bluefin, the Pacific, and the southern bluefin, correct? Chloe (06:48.806) Yeah, so those are three different species. It gets very complex when you start, yeah. So there are different species of bluefin tuna and then they're within the Atlantic, there are different populations. So it can get very complex depending on, yeah. Mm-hmm. Katie (06:51.294) Okay. Okay, right. Katie (07:00.261) So, right? And the more we know, the less we know. So in North Carolina, you're fishing for, or the commercial industry is fishing for bluefin, the Atlantic bluefin tuna. Chloe (07:08.508) Yeah, that's the best way of saying it. Mm-hmm. Katie (07:19.129) Tell me a little bit about the sizes of fish that are harvested and what the regulations are there. Like how many tags, what the release ratio might be, like give us a little bit of insight into that fishery specifically. Chloe (07:19.211) Yeah. Chloe (07:25.302) Mm-hmm. Chloe (07:29.506) Hmm. Chloe (07:35.242) Yeah, so specifically in North Carolina, well, actually just federally in the United States, a bluefin commercially has to be over 73 inches. So that's a pretty big fish. In North Carolina, it's a mixed size class of, I mean, you get fish probably as small as 50 inches and up to like upwards of 110. So it's a big range, but what's nice is you're not getting like a ton of the really little ones. Like you might get off the coast of Massachusetts, or not really little, but smaller. Yeah, I don't know if that upset anyone, but compared to the giants that you get in Nova Scotia or, I mean, people in Massachusetts still get really big ones too, but you know what I mean. Katie (08:10.021) Careful. Katie (08:16.263) Right. Katie (08:21.445) Yes, of course, of course, yes. We love you Massachusetts. So 73, you said 73 inches is qualifies as a giant, correct? Chloe (08:26.606) I don't want to call anyone out. Yeah, that's. Um, yeah, I think so. I forget all of that. Noah has it all spelled out, but 73 inches to harvest commercially. Yeah. Katie (08:36.069) That's okay. We don't... Yeah, yeah. And how many tags or how many, is it a tonnage or is it like how much can be harvested in the season? Chloe (08:48.678) Yeah. So it's based off of quota. And what makes this a really tricky fishery for people also is that once the quota is met or they predict that it's about to be met, they'll close the fishery immediately, like effective, like tomorrow at midnight, essentially. So you really don't have a great idea. Like when you start, I mean, you can, you know, if North Carolina knows like, Oh, we're going to get 60 metric tons for December. Then people have a good idea of. how quickly that will fill up, whether that's gonna be a week or two weeks, always depends on how good the fishing is, the size of the fish, the size classes that are coming through there. And then there's a limit of one per vessel per day. Katie (09:29.837) Okay, that's interesting. Really cool. So that's all fine and dandy. NOAA regulates federally in the U.S. But these are highly migratory species. So how does that work on an international level? Chloe (09:34.974) Mm-hmm. Chloe (09:40.206) Yeah Chloe (09:43.506) It's, yeah, that's the problem of the bluefin tuna and other highly migratory species is that they cross the jurisdictions of many different nations. I can't remember what the number is. I think for like all bluefin tuna, it's like over 50 different nations that are competing for this resource. So if you're a bluefin tuna, everywhere that you go, someone's trying to catch you. So in the Atlantic, they are managed by this international organization called ICAT. um, which I'm going to blink on the acronym, the International Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas. And they manage, bluefin, thanks, um, there are so many different, across the world there, like seven different, they're called RFMOs, Regional Fishery Management Organizations, and they all have like, similar, slightly similar, but differing names. It's hard to keep them all straight, but they manage for the most part all the highly migratory species of their set region. Katie (10:21.709) You nailed it. Chloe (10:43.562) So they set the quotas for different countries and perform the stock assessments and do all of the complicated data analysis and politics. Katie (10:54.373) So the politics are done internationally, regulated internationally as well as nationally. But there's so many questions we still have about this tuna, which is why your work and Dr. Block's work and all the work at Hopkins is so important, correct? Now go for it. No, no, no. Tell me what you just say. Chloe (10:59.11) Right. Correct, yeah. Mm-hmm. Chloe (11:09.61) Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's, oh, go ahead. Oh, I was going to, it's really an international effort. Like, yes, we have our lab that's based at Stanford, but we are working with collaborators all across the world, from Canada to Spain, Italy. There's a country where bluefin tuna go, you name it. We've probably worked with them in some regard, as far as getting samples or tagging fish. So it's, oh, right. Yeah. Katie (11:34.265) That's awesome. I was able, and you know this, but I was in the Canary Islands with the On Location when Tag a Giant Foundation came over and we helped them catch fish to tag four-year studies and it was in collaboration with the University in Barcelona. So that was really incredible. I hope that you and I get to go do that one day. Have you been over there? Chloe (11:42.306) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Chloe (11:54.282) Oh, mm-hmm. Chloe (11:58.854) I know. I haven't. It is my dream to go there. I want to go so badly. I'm gonna push for it this year. I have a lot of work to do. So unfortunately, like the further... yeah. Katie (12:08.953) You're in your fourth year, right? You're in your fourth year, so it's kind of busy, right? Chloe (12:14.018) Right, the further you get in the PhD, it's probably the more data analysis and the less fun in tagging, but hopefully I get a chance to get out. Katie (12:21.913) That's why they hook you early. That's cool. Okay, so let's go ahead and talk about the tagging. Let's talk about what these programs look like. I wanna know what Taggagiant's doing over in the Canaries and what they're doing in North Carolina and everywhere else and what we've discovered from them. Chloe (12:24.035) Yeah, exactly. Chloe (12:28.12) Mm-hmm. Chloe (12:37.14) Mm-hmm. Chloe (12:41.758) Yeah. So what's cool is basically everywhere that we go, we are working with the local community that's there. Like, we're in California. We can't just show up somewhere and pretend like we know how to catch bluefin tuna and just go off and be successful. Like, that would never work. Katie (12:58.048) I love the picture you just painted. That was perfect. Keep going. Chloe (13:02.43) So, you know, whether it's Nova Scotia or the Canaries or North Carolina, we're working with commercial and recreational fishermen in those locations who are the experts of catching bluefin in that spot. Like, you know, when you're in the Canaries, like, it's probably very different fishing than if you were in Southern California or if you were somewhere else. So, it's really special because I get to learn when I travel to these locations, all of the, you know, very regional specifics. what everyone has, you know, their different superstitions and their different techniques and what they swear by and um here do I could you lose me I'm oh okay Katie (13:37.397) Oh no. Hold on. I did lose you, but I think it might have been on my side. Oh shoot, let's start. I heard from regional specifics, so if you could kind of go a little bit back and we'll try again. Sorry. Chloe (13:54.582) Okay, no, you're good. Yeah, so when we travel to these different locations, we really just get to spend the time working with the commercial and recreational fishermen who all have these regional specifics of gear types and superstitions and things that they swear by. And it's a really cool opportunity to learn. And that's the reason that we're successful because we have the people that are experts for that region helping us tag the fish. So. It usually requires a lot of complex permitting to make sure that we get everyone, you know, on the same page, but usually people are really excited and, uh, really helpful and people are just innately curious about these fish. And, um, for the most part, everyone's very happy to be a part of it. So it requires a lot of coordination, but, um, it's great cause we get to tag fish of different populations, fish of different age and size classes and The goal for most of our work is to track these fish to their spawning grounds. And in the canaries, those fish are mostly going to spawn in the Mediterranean sea. In North Carolina, it's a very mixed batch. We get some that are going to spawn in the Mediterranean sea, some in the Gulf of Mexico. And then there's a spawning location that is, um, people are working really hard right now to understand better called the slope sea, which is off the coast, basically north of Hatteras all the way to the Scotian Shelf. It's like this weird kind of like shape off the continental shelf and bordered by the Gulf Stream. So we've discovered that there are some fish spawning there. So the goal is to track these spawning fish and figure out where they're going. And to understand like, oh, in Nova Scotia, maybe we have predominantly Gulf of Mexico fish, but maybe that's shifting year to year. So you wanna know which population the fish originates from to be able to better manage the stock. That's a hold. Katie (16:00.197) So, there are two, maybe three, maybe more populations of bluefin tuna in the Atlantic. One population is what you're dubbing the med population, and the other one is the gulf population. So, what you're saying is these fish consistently go back to their same spawning grounds once they're of maturity every year. Wow. Chloe (16:04.942) Correct, yeah. Right. Yes. Chloe (16:21.214) Mm-hmm. Yes, that's our understanding. And I mean, sure enough, we're going to get one day that goes to both and throws the whole thing out the window. But for right now, the understanding is, yes, that they're managed by ICAT as two populations, the Gulf and the Med for sake of simplicity. And they'll refer to that as the Western and the Eastern populations. So. Katie (16:30.289) I'm sorry. Chloe (16:47.134) Yeah, it gets, it gets complicated because then they're mixing in the middle of the ocean. But we do, I've been working on a lot of tagging data showing that they repeat, visit these spawning locations year to year, when we can have longer term tags on them. Katie (17:02.297) and you take little samples, are these populations genetically different? Chloe (17:07.551) So that is the question of my PhD. How did you know? So yeah, my PhD work is really aiming at specifically characterizing these populations from an ecological movement-based standpoint and also a genomic standpoint. So there have been a lot of different genetic markers used over the years to try to characterize and figure out how they're different. from smaller subsets of genetic markers across the genome. People can say, oh, this one's Gulf, this one's Med, this one is maybe something in between, not really sure. So I'm using the whole genome of the animal to try to really increase the amount of markers that we can use to differentiate them. So yeah, so when we go out and we tag the fish, I will usually get a small thin clip from them and... we try to get a fin clip and a muscle biopsy. And sometimes, you know, things are chaos on a boat and you miss them, which is too bad. But we try to do our best and get as many as possible. Yeah, exactly. So we get those and then I'll go and collect samples from fish that are landed also whenever I have the time. Katie (18:10.413) Because you have like a 600 pound fish on the deck. Katie (18:22.993) So, okay, for the listeners that might be like, wait, what is this? You're actually taking parts, parts of a living animal and putting it on the deck and that sounds horrible. You terrible person, Chloe. You're awful. Anyway, let's talk about the process and how, and how it's not at all terrible and what is, what, what type of measures you guys take to make sure that fish is as comfortable as possible. Chloe (18:26.958) Yeah. Right. Chloe (18:36.974) Yeah, the process. Chloe (18:47.722) Yeah. So part of it, you know, it all starts when you hook the fish. So we really try to use, always use circle hooks to maximize being hooked in the corner of the jaw. So that makes one thing easier. And then you also want the fight time to be as quick as possible. So we're not trying to be sporty about it. We're just trying to get these fish into the boat as quick as possible. When we get them into the boat, which is also a difficult process, we have to hook the fish basically in its lower jaw. and pull it up onto the boat with a rope and it usually takes several people depending on how big it is. And then once the fish is on the boat we have it in this blue mat that you'll see in a lot of our pictures. And someone like hand sewed that mat for us a long time ago and I don't like that's not something you can just go out and buy like someone made it specifically for our work and has handles on it so we can turn the fish. But that protects the... Katie (19:20.588) Mm-hmm. Katie (19:40.737) Sorry, I'm laughing because I remember when Robbie showed up in Gomera with this hand-sewn mat and I was like, it was massive. And those boys, man, they were packing them up on the flight for the flight back and I was like, what are y'all doing? It was making so much noise. Anyway, continue with your mat. I interrupted you. It's just a fond memory I have. But it, talk about a little bit before you go on about the purpose of that mat. Chloe (19:59.54) No, you're good. Yeah. Katie (20:07.429) and sliding that fish onto the deck and the slime of the fish. Chloe (20:08.614) Yeah, mm-hmm. Right, so that's important, as you just said, yeah, to protect the fish's slime. And, you know, there's a lot of stuff, like the deck of the boat is made to be grippy so that we are not slipping around on it. When, you know, you have a mate in the cockpit trying to wire a fish, like, you need to have your feet be grippy on the ground, so, but that is really damaging the fish's skin. So, hence our mat. And then we stick a hose in their mouth to irrigate their gills. So we're always checking like whatever boat we're tagging on, like I'm bugging the captain, like, Hey, is your hose a high enough pressure? Because we need a lot of water moving through this fish's gills. And then, um, because yeah, a fun fact about bluefin tuna and other, um, highland migratory fish is that they have to be moving forward to breathe underwater. So they use, as you're familiar with a process called ram ventilation, which is like the literally need water being pushed through their mouth. to irrigate their gills. So if you stop them, yeah. Yes. I think, yeah, some species of sharks. I'm not a shark expert, but I don't know. But yeah, bluefin and blue marlin for sure and other tuna species. So, and they're the ones, you know, they're moving fast essentially. So if you stop those fish, Katie (21:08.845) Same with billfish, sharks, correct? Mm-hmm. So if you stop them. Okay, yeah. Let's not go there. Go on. So if you stop at tuna... Chloe (21:33.95) it would be very hard for them to be breathing. So that's why we put the hose in their mouth. And then we put a cover over their eye just to protect their eye. I mean, they could be looking around and seeing what we're doing. They're honestly like too big to move around while we're doing anything for them. Like when you put this big fish on the deck, it's usually not big enough to actually like lift its tail up in like, you know, gravity is a much stronger force than they're facing in the ocean when they're moving. So they usually can't lift. their tail up that high to start doing like the tuna slap on the deck that you see like smaller ones do. Right. And then, yeah. Katie (22:09.073) the smaller ones yeah. I thought the I thought the towel over the eye was to keep them calm to keep it dark and kind of just Chloe (22:20.142) Maybe. Yeah, I mean, protect their eye, keep it. I mean, I don't really know if we didn't put the towel on their eye if they would be less calm. We could test it, but it's just something we always do. So maybe. Yeah. Katie (22:31.46) No. Yeah, of course. It's like a spa day for the comfort of the fish, my bad. Chloe (22:38.386) They're being abducted by these human scientists and probed and then sent back into the ocean. I would love to know what they think. And then while the fish is on the deck, we get a couple measurements. So we get their curved fork length, their girth, and then I take a fin clip, a muscle biopsy, we stick the tags in. We also put a spaghetti tag in the fish that has a phone number to call. Katie (22:40.578) Ha! Chloe (23:05.418) So those, I mean, a lot of people in tournaments are just for fun, we'll go out and spaghetti tag fish. And that'll be really valuable information for a point A to point B. So we have that as an identifier on there. Usually one sort of electronic tag. Sometimes fish get two tags. Um, and then we turn them around and set them back. And because we're tagging them with electronic tags, we actually know what happens to the fish. So if the fish were to die, which for the most part does not happen. I mean, it's very rare. I'm not gonna say it never does. Every once in a while, unfortunately, one dies, but we know and we report that right away. So that's part of the research. Like if a fish weren't to make it, which rarely happens, the tag actually pops off of the animal. So there's a sensor on there that basically, if it sinks to the bottom and it doesn't move for three days, then the tag pops off. Katie (23:40.741) science. Chloe (24:04.47) But the great thing is that doesn't usually happen. So we know that the fish, yeah. Right. Katie (24:07.033) That's crazy. So you don't have to wait the 360 days of the tag life. It's just, it lets you know immediately. Chloe (24:16.498) Yeah, we're usually just like, I mean, just for the, you know, we always like hold our breath for a couple of days. And we're like, if we haven't heard from it, then it's good. The fish is moving. It's somewhere. Like, you know, I was, I tagged my first blue marlin last year and I was just like hoping, hoping I was like, this is my first one. Like, I hope it's going to be okay. And, um, you know, also that I placed the tag correctly and it doesn't pop off of the animal and then if you don't hear from it, exactly. Yeah. These. Katie (24:41.349) That's an expensive mistake. Chloe (24:45.398) The satellite tags are like four or $5,000 a piece. So it's nerve wracking. Yeah, you wanna make sure that it goes well. Right, and then for that part, we're also taking as good of care of the fish as possible. Like if a fish comes up on the boat and it's like a seam or comes up to the boat, usually we don't bring it on the boat if it looks stressed. You know, like if the color is off, if it doesn't look good, if we ever accidentally get a tail wrapped fish, God forbid that, like we cut it loose, let it go, try to swim it to get it moving again. Katie (24:51.157) It's super, it's a lot of pressure. Chloe (25:15.398) and we're not going to put a fish that isn't in great condition through the stress of tagging. Katie (25:20.729) Yes, so for the listener, Chloe just mentioned if we ever get a tail wrap fish. We were talking earlier about how tuna and a lot of pelagic species need to be moving forward to breathe. So if you get your fishing line wrapped around the tail of the fish, you're going to end up pulling it from the back, backwards and then pushing water through the gills in the wrong direction. So that's how they asphyxiate. But there are ways as an angler and a captain to help mitigate these issues and make sure that they don't happen. Chloe (25:23.31) Mm-hmm. Chloe (25:29.803) Mm. Chloe (25:38.572) Right. Chloe (25:42.754) Mm-hmm. Katie (25:50.663) if they do happen to address it early and make sure that fish lives through the process. Now we'll get into that another time but I just wanted to touch base on why tail wrapping is such a bad thing. Now Chloe what I find fascinating is that these bluefin tuna and other tuna are so stout they're so sturdy and they can take that type of Chloe (25:59.49) Mm-hmm. Chloe (26:04.15) Yeah, thank you. Mm-hmm. Chloe (26:16.322) Mm-hmm. Right. Katie (26:20.661) I don't want to say harassment, but that type of, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Yes, yes, and, and then live on it happily. I mean, like you, like you said, the science shows, the data shows. Now, I said we weren't going to talk about blue marlin, but Bill Fish, you don't take them out of the water to tag them, do you? Chloe (26:24.241) Stressed, yeah. Chloe (26:31.155) Yeah. Chloe (26:38.505) Yeah. No. So billfish are considerably more fragile than bluefin tuna. And like the smaller billfish, like spearfish and sailfish are very, very fragile for whatever reason. Those fish, like, you know, in the States and I can't remember if other countries, but in the States, it's illegal to pick one up out of the water unless you're going to harvest it. So those fish, you want to Chloe (27:11.074) For pictures sake, you know, the GoPro stick was invented and people have found a way to like get a great picture shot of a sailfish next to the boat without having to bring it out of the water. Yeah. Exactly. They die, right? Katie (27:21.209) So much prettier than when they take them out of the water. They get all dark, they're ugly, and then most of the time they die. But in the water, they're properly aerated, they've got all their beautiful colors. So definitely encourage the listener, if you guys go bill fishing, to keep your fish in the water and take a picture that way. But Chloe, how do we know that they don't survive and why has it become legally mandated to keep these fish in the water? Chloe (27:31.566) Right. Chloe (27:44.158) Mm-hmm. So there have actually been a ton of scientific studies evaluating catch and release mortality. So that's basically the percentage of fish that are caught angled a certain way and released. So there's a huge body of literature and a lot of scientists that work on that question and so many different species. And you can get very, very specific with it. You can have a certain, like there are different, basically more catch and release mortality estimates for. every single different species and every different way of capture. So you'll have someone evaluating light tackle catch and release mortality on, um, blue marlin or bluefin tuna or the same, you know, the same for any other species. And you're really trying to estimate like, okay, what can we do to minimize, um, mortality for these fish? And a lot of times it's, um, quicker fight times, limiting air exposure, limiting handling, um, It's things that all like kind of make sense when you spend a lot of time out on the water and you see how these fish react. But you know, it's like when I first started trout fishing, I was like, wow, trout are super fragile. Like you know, you fight those fish too long and they like can't even swim again. So ocean fish in general are more are a lot tougher. But yeah, we don't bring I think that some of the earlier studies with blue marlin, maybe they think. Katie (28:55.513) Yeah. Chloe (29:10.73) At some point people probably were bringing them on the boat and then they were seeing from the tags that they just don't survive. Or if you don't swim the fish when you're releasing it. We found from a lot of tagging work that if a fish is really tired after tagging it, you really need to take the time to swim it and release it. That practice thankfully is caught on widely in the whole bill fishing community and I see people having those videos. Because everyone wants that video of showing that your fish swam away. Katie (29:33.474) Yes. Katie (29:39.633) The healthy release. Yes, we're not out there because, exactly, we're not out there because we don't like them. So no, they're incredible. We always swim, especially our big fish, we always swim our big fish. And you can tell, like I mentioned earlier, the coloring of the fish helps show how healthy and the lack of color shows the level of stress. So how do you tag your marlin? Chloe (29:39.766) We all care so much about these fish. Yeah, we don't want them to die. Ha ha. Right. Mm-hmm. Chloe (29:57.249) Right. Chloe (30:02.123) Mm-hmm. Chloe (30:06.006) So yes, the marlin, it's a huge coordinated effort between captain, mate, or mate's plural sometimes, and whoever's tagging the fish. So usually, it depends on whether you're tournament fishing or what, but usually the captain will try to back down on the fish quickly to minimize the fight time. And then as long as the fish isn't too green, like you want it to be somewhat under control also. So it's a really fine balance. Like. Katie (30:33.029) Green is not a color, it's a behavior. Chloe (30:35.47) Green is a behavior, yes. Thank you. So you'll have a fish, you know, you can't safely tag a fish that is still jumping and tail dancing across the water. You need it to be somewhat under control, but not too tired that it's like having a hard time moving. So it's this really fine balance. And then, you know, it requires the mate to get it close to the boat. And then we like to place the tag right under the dorsal fin. And I think I sent you some pictures that we can show listeners later, but that is like the spot where you want to tag the fish to help like it's above their lateral line, which is a really cool sensory organ that we can talk about later. Um, but you want it to be like deep into the muscle. Um, but then like it's, you really have to avoid like damaging any specific organs. So it's like kind of in the shoulder of the fish, I guess. Um, and then it's in the spot that. Katie (31:06.149) Definitely. Chloe (31:32.562) really minimizes any sort of drag also. So we don't want this tag, you know, and we also don't tag small marlin. We only tag ones that are big enough so that the tag actually isn't interfering with their, or minimally interfering with their day-to-day activities, swimming life. So it can be hard because like you'll get a fish next to the boat, a marlin, and the mate's holding on as hard as he can trying to get it in the right position and the fish is just like rolling over like belly up. Katie (31:50.26) I love it. Chloe (32:02.326) You're like, well, I need you to be sideways so you can get the tag in on the side. Right. So it can be very tricky to keep the fish in the right position. Yeah. And then we have a long tagging pole that AFCO makes that we, uh, is super easy and lightweight and you can just stab the tag into its back and let it go on its way. Yeah. Katie (32:02.335) Yeah. Katie (32:05.785) Give me your dorsal! Katie (32:12.601) That's... yeah. Katie (32:25.765) Let it go on its way. Awesome. Switching gears back to Bluefin. Let's talk, and it's the same thing with these blue marlin tags too, but I really wanna focus on these tuna of yours. What all do the satellite tags, what type of information do they gather, and how does that information get brought into the day by day of the fish? Like telling us about the day by day of the fish. Chloe (32:31.062) Yeah. Chloe (32:34.998) Mm-hmm. Chloe (32:49.694) Yeah. So the satellite tags, I wish I had one to show you, but it's basically this. Yeah. So the satellite tag is this waterproof pressure proof package that contains a computer chip inside a battery, all of these different sensors. So start from like the top of the tag. It has a light stock that is measuring the light levels. Katie (32:56.249) We'll show it on while you're talk. Chloe (33:16.734) And from that, we can actually mathematically geolocate where the fish is. So we know when the sun rises and we know when the sun sets and we use different mathematical algorithms based off of that to position the fish. So that data all gets stored inside the tag. Then we also have an external temperature sensor that's sensing the environment around the fish, the water that it's in. So when it's diving deep or on the surface or travel anywhere, you can get the temperature of where the fish is. And then there's a pressure sensor, which you can calculate depth from. So as you go down, pressure increases and we can determine basically to the exact meter. Science uses all metric, which makes things complicated going back and forth, but we can figure out exactly the depth of fish is swimming at. And then, so that's a satellite tag. There are also, I can talk more about later, archival tags that we surgically implant in their bellies. And the only difference between those is, The archival tags also have an internal temperature sensor, but then they also stay with the fish for life. So the satellite tag is this package that detaches from the fish after a pre-programmed time. So in its computer sensor, and depending on what sort of experiments we're doing, we'll set that time differently. So you can set it to pop off after a couple of days, after a week, after two weeks, you can set the exact number of days, but usually we set them to a year, or as long as we can. So the battery life on those lasts about a year. We'll pop the tag off and then it actually starts transmitting its data up to the satellite. And it just starts like dumping the data up to the satellite as fast as it can before it dies. What's great is that if we get the tag back, we get the entire record. So when the tag is uploading all the data to the satellite, it's not able to get like everything at the sampling rate that it's taking. So. It might be recording a data point every 10 seconds, but that's too much data to send up to the satellite. So it'll send like a shorter summary. Like maybe you have something like every minute or every couple of minutes, a position, a depth, a temperature. Um, so it just depends on the resolution of the data. I can keep going. Yeah. There's a lot to it. It's. Katie (35:33.669) That's amazing. So yeah, no, wait, I'm like, I'm kind of blown away about the fact that it records a data set every 10 seconds for a year. Like... Chloe (35:42.658) Mm-hmm. Katie (35:43.885) That's a lot of data, but then this concept of, you know, wherever the bluefin tuna is 360, 65 days later is where the tag's gonna pop up. So then you have this little tag that's gotta be like what, six inches long, maybe eight, that's floating around in the ocean and it's like, good luck scientists, come and find me before I die. Chloe (35:46.27) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chloe (36:00.991) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Exactly. And usually, right, usually they don't pop off anywhere convenient. Like, they're not going to pop off like right in your backyard. I mean, one did once, which is great. But, um... Katie (36:13.515) I'm sorry. Katie (36:18.563) That's awesome. Chloe (36:21.986) Blue Marlin that I tagged last year just popped up right off the coast of Belize, which was super exciting. So Robbie, who you know, flew down to Belize to try to go get it, and he went on this tag recovery mission. And as soon as he got out on the water, the tag died, and he could not find it. And it's just this tiny tag floating in the middle of the ocean. And I mean, with ocean currents and weather patterns, yeah. So he never found that one, unfortunately. Katie (36:28.645) That's awesome. Mm-hmm. Katie (36:46.969) You do what you can. Chloe (36:51.882) Maybe it'll wash up on a beach. That'd be great. Katie (36:51.911) Have you gone on...yeah right. Have you gone on tag recovery missions? Chloe (36:58.562) Yes, they are difficult. So you're looking for this little black tag that's barely floating in the ocean. So it's hard because you have so much. It's a mini computer that you've then, you know, made waterproof, made pressure-proof, and made like able to fit on a fish. And then you also need it to float. So it barely floats. Like it's just barely sticking out of the ocean, sometimes bobbing up and down. and it has this little antenna that's kind of swaying back and forth, but it's black. And anyone who's been out in the ocean, like if you drop something black, it floats. Like it's not bright, but that's because we don't want other fish to be picking at it. So if it was a bright color, it's just kind of this fish swimming around and it might get bitten off by another animal. So that's why we make them dark. But we use this device, it's called a goniometer. And yeah, I know. Katie (37:39.002) Right. Chloe (37:55.138) Don't ask me how it works. It's like an omnidirectional stick that you put the code in of the tag and it tells you like it's like a game of hot and cold. Like you're getting warmer, you're getting further away. And once like I, the first tag recovery mission that I did by myself, I went with my friend Katie (37:55.341) I'm in. I'm into it. Chloe (38:23.178) And he was like, oh, we use that in the Marines to like locate stuff. It's like, great. Like, so maybe you can help me. Um, so we go off, yeah, looking for this tag, playing this game of hot and cold. You know, sun's going down, weather. Like we had like a very quick weather window and we literally, I have a picture of the tag in the ocean with the sun, like halfway set in the background. And it's like, we barely, barely got it. Yeah. Katie (38:30.521) Super. Katie (38:49.822) Oh my gosh. You got it. That's awesome. Is that the only one you've been on? Chloe (38:57.016) So I have helped get some in Nova Scotia also. Those are actually a lot easier because the fish usually returns to the Gulf of St. Lawrence every year. So we know that it's gonna pop off there. And then it's a big bay. You know, like there isn't the Gulf Stream to whisk a tag off. Like if you don't get a tag in North Carolina within a couple of days of it popping off, it's in the Gulf Stream and it's like on its way to Spain. Katie (39:15.741) Right? Katie (39:22.307) It's gone. Chloe (39:23.658) Yeah. And it's dying, yeah. Yeah. You still get a great amount. So you can tell basically the entire track of where the fish went. And then you get a pretty good summary of, you can get like a good average of the depths and temperatures that the fish likes to be in. So for marlin, we know that they really like to be, they're more surface oriented, they like to be warmer. Katie (39:26.199) And it's dying. But you still get, you still get, okay, so how much, if you don't recover the tag, how much data do you get back? Okay. Chloe (39:54.178) The bluefin tuna can go a lot colder. The bluefin can go, it's, it has like, it can withstand probably the coldest temperatures of just about any highly migratory species. They're amazing fish. And then we have them going down to the lowest temperature is zero Celsius, which is like freezing basically. So yeah, they're cold. They're warm fish, which is, so they are... one of the only endothermic fishes. And of, you know, yes. So, I mean, we call it regionally endothermic, but they are warming their core up. So it's this really cool process where, you've probably seen when you like cut open a filet of fish that there's red muscle and white muscle. And in like, I'm trying to think of another good example, in just like a normal fish. Katie (40:26.661) fully endo. Chloe (40:51.83) The red muscle is on the outside, but in the bluefin tuna, they've basically like evolutionary evolved to internalize their red muscle. So that, so when they're swimming, they're heating themselves up. And then because it's internal, they're able to like insulate their body, retain that heat. And then through a series of their like countercurrent heat exchangers, which is like this very fine capillary network within their body. They're able to retain the heat. inside. So it's this very, yeah. Katie (41:22.661) So is that why tuna meets red? Chloe (41:26.87) Um, the meat is really red because it's really concentrated with, um, myoglobin or, yeah. No, I was like, wait, is that correct? So, um, they, they have a lot of, you know, because they're, it's a highly efficient fish, they have a ton of mitochondria and their muscles just like packed full of those and all the oxygen transport. Yeah. It's physiologically they're like. Katie (41:33.425) Okay. Yeah. Sorry. Didn't mean to interrupt you. You were on a roll and I was just, I was kind of blown away. Sounded really good to me. Chloe (41:56.29) They're a very, very fascinating animal. And that's why my advisor, Barb Block, has really fallen in love with them. Like her, by training, she's a physiologist. So these animals are like one of like the world's physiological wonders, basically, that they've been able to evolve this system that's more mammalian-like. Like we are endothermic. We, you know, can adjust to different temperatures, but fish and reptiles are not. They just kind of, for the most part, they just go along with whatever temperature it is. And... That's why you get iguanas falling out of trees in Florida when it gets too cold, because they just can't withstand that. Katie (42:34.541) Um, what about like yellowfin and blackfin and big eyes? Are they all endothermic as well? Chloe (42:35.146) Mm-hmm. Chloe (42:41.366) They are, but the bluefin has basically the greatest capacity for endothermy. So they also have similar systems. They're just not basically as strong and developed and evolved as the bluefin. Katie (42:53.557) And you were saying earlier, back when you were talking about the populations, you got your Eastern and your Western population and how they're all congregating, seemingly, off the coast of the Midwest of the U.S. And, sorry, Mideast. Mideast of the U.S. Northwest, thank you. Eastern land. Chloe (42:56.722) Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Chloe (43:08.658) Mid- yeah. Northwest Atlantic Ocean. Eastern- yeah, it's- I always get it mixed up. Depends on whether you're talking about the continent or the ocean. Yeah. Northwest Atlantic Ocean is what we usually say. Yeah. Katie (43:20.247) Right. Thank you. So. Thank you. Okay, so how they're all congregating in the Northwest Atlantic Ocean. And what just kind of blows my mind here, and that I really want to emphasize is the fact that these fish are crossing the ocean. And that's not a that's not common. Like even for blue marlin, like it's not common for them, as far as we know, to be crossing the ocean basin. So what does that mean? And how do they? Chloe (43:39.171) Yeah. Right. No. Mm-hmm. Chloe (43:48.351) Right. Katie (43:51.117) Like, do they feed in the middle of the Atlantic? Are there feeding points there? Like, what do we know based on your tagging research that these fish are doing to cross the ocean, and why is that so exceptional? Chloe (43:53.495) Mm-hmm. Chloe (43:58.699) Yeah. Chloe (44:03.522) So yeah, first of all, it's just a very far distance. So yeah, being able to make that migration and of itself is just incredible. We definitely know that there are foraging hotspots just about everywhere. We recently, I don't want to say discovered this spot. I mean, it's this oceanographic condition that we spot that we always, people always knew was there, but we didn't really understand why the fish were there. There's a spot like kind of in the middle. of the Atlantic Ocean. And there's this eddy called the man eddy that one of my colleagues just published a paper on explaining how the fish are basically drawn to this eddy and that they're feeding on congregations of baitfish. We don't know what the fish are that are there. I'm sure someone knows, but there's like this big feeding aggregation for bluefin tuna that they all love to go to. And it's just this spectacular thing. before I just kind of looked at the track and they're like, oh, it's just passing through, this must just be somewhere. But we actually see fish year after year returning to that location. So they know that there's some really high quality forage there and then, you know, so there are spots where they can feed as they cross the ocean. But sometimes you'll see tracks where it's just going very quickly and not spending a lot of time diving or, you know, just spending a couple of days passing through a very long distance. So we can get a really good idea whether or not a fish is actually utilizing, like performing feeding behavior and diving or just swimming. Katie (45:40.165) So what are the, like, that's really interesting to me because when you're looking at this data that you're getting from your satellite tag at the end of the year, how do you know what identifiers are there that's showing you that fish fed in that location and what identifiers are showing you that it was just passing through? Chloe (45:49.292) Mm-hmm. Chloe (45:56.45) Mm-hmm. So one really cool thing, well, okay, yeah, with the satellite tag, it's usually diving behavior. So we really think that the fish is only diving if it's going to feed or if it's trying to avoid predator, or sometimes they're diving to avoid surface currents. But that we really would have a very hard time understanding. But for the most part, they're only diving to feed or to avoid a predator. So yeah, that would be the way. A cool thing about the archival tags. is with the internal temperature, you can actually get, you can actually know exactly when they're feeding because when we eat, our body actually warms up. It's called this heat increment of feeding. So when you're ingesting, taking in these calories, that's energy and your body as it's processing that is heating up. So we can actually, there have been some papers showing this with mostly smaller bluefin tuna. You can tell when they like take a bite. their internal body actually cools down at first because they're getting cold water from the outside or maybe a cold sardine or something. And then it starts heating up as the fish is digesting that meal. And there's this curve of digestion and then it goes back down to baseline. So yeah, you can get this whole study of metabolism in the way that a lot of like human physiologists can also do in a wild bluefin tuna, which is just spectacular. Katie (47:25.157) Spectacular. That is fascinating. And with these with these archival tags, not only do you have to catch the fish again to get it back, but you have to like harvest the fish to get it back. What how many do you all set? How many archival tags do you all set out launching a year? And how many have you gotten back in your career? Chloe (47:26.782) Yeah. Right. Chloe (47:45.602) Yeah, so, oh man, it's, well, I think it's actually worth standing beyond my career. So since I've been putting out archival tags, I haven't gotten a single one back. Um, it takes a long time. So, yeah, not yet. Um, so I'm actually working on tagging data from an archival tag that was placed in a fish in North Carolina in 2012. And it is like the most remarkable. Um. Katie (47:58.411) Yet. Chloe (48:15.358) study of animal migration. And we've tracked the fish for six years and the battery life on the tag lasted for six years and it was caught in, um, like a pen in the Mediterranean sea and then harvested. So we were actually able to get the tag back. But, um. Katie (48:20.529) That's amazing. Katie (48:29.413) That's the Almadrabah, right? The Almadrabah fishery in the Med? Do you know about that? Chloe (48:34.274) Yeah, I'm not... a little bit. There's... yeah, I've never seen all of it. Katie (48:37.153) It's just like a big cultural thing in Italy and Spain. It's old, it's ancient practice of harvesting these fish in pens, but it's pretty spectacular. Yes, but sorry, continue. So that fish was harvested in the Med. Chloe (48:44.055) Mm-hmm. And then Matanza, yeah. Chloe (48:51.594) Yeah. Yes. And so over time, it's really a product of like how many fish, how many we get back or how many tags we put out and then how many fish are caught. So if quotas are really low, we actually won't get that many tags back. If quotas are really high and we put out a lot of tags, then over time, so like starting in the late nineties, and if you give it a lag of about 20 years, we'll get close to about like between like 30 to 50 percent of those tags back, which is a huge return rate. Yeah. Like in fisheries literature, like I think a tag return rate of over three percent is considered to be like great. Yeah. So a lot of these fish are getting, yeah, and a lot of them end up getting caught in the Mediterranean Sea, and but this also requires Katie (49:30.501) That's... Yeah, that's a lot. Katie (49:41.881) success. Yeah, that, I mean, that's wild. Chloe (49:51.734) partnerships with the harvesters there so that they know like if there's this weird thing in the belly of the fish like they need to be aware that is something that they need to look out for and that they need to return to us. So it requires again this international collaboration and cooperation and people being supportive of the research also because you know people are like all these darn scientists you know I'm just going to crush this tag and throw it overboard then all the effort is done for nothing you know. Katie (50:14.698) Ha ha. Chloe (50:20.442) have to maintain those good relationships. Katie (50:22.965) And you touched on that earlier about how most people are really excited to have you guys on board and are just genuinely curious about the science and the studies. Have you worked with a lot of commercial fishermen and a lot of recreational fishermen? I want to hear a little bit about your stories with that. Chloe (50:29.441) Yeah. Chloe (50:32.66) Mm-hmm. Chloe (50:40.254) Yeah, so I mean, my best friend from back home, Natalia, who we both know, she, yeah, she is this badass commercial fisherman, fisherwoman. Um, and I learned so much from her about bluefin tuna and just fishing in general. So having that relationship. Yeah. I mean, I, that was, I learned more about bluefin than I feel like most scientists get to, because I was on the water fishing for them. Katie (50:45.361) She's incredible. Katie (50:56.185) God, that's so cool. Chloe (51:07.57) learning firsthand from the people that know the most about them. Because if you're out in the water catching these fish every day, like, maybe you're not a trained scientist, but your observations are all scientific. Like, you know, the great currents, the right tides, the right temperatures, you know, the seasonal migrations of them, when they go, where are they going to be and when. So, you know, exactly right. What they're eating, how to present the bait properly. Like fishing is so scientific in nature. So. Katie (51:27.341) what they're eating, what to look for, and all the conditions. Chloe (51:36.938) I mean, that's why I feel like I was so drawn to it. Cause I was like, wow, this is like, this is scientific. This is really cool. So for the most part, like fishermen know best where the fish are, what's going on in the fishery. Like if they're the ones that you need to go to, I mean, they know best. So I've been really lucky to have these good relationships and you know, the fishing world is so small. So. you know, you make one good connection and then, you know, you can go just about anywhere in the world and there's someone who knows someone who knows someone who can connect to you and that goes a long way. Um, and it's right. Exactly. So, you know, every once in a while, of course you're going to meet someone who's grumpy and not excited about the tagging and the science. And that's probably cause they've been around for a really long time and they've seen how the fishery changes and Katie (52:16.257) and is so happy too. Chloe (52:34.198) You see a lot of things where it's like, oh, it's not like it used to be. Like the fishing was so good back then. But in the case of bluefin, I feel like a lot of people are seeing now how, you know, there were, there's been like the most strictly managed fish in the world. But your people are seeing in their lifetimes, the fish, the fishery rebounding and they're seeing, oh, wow, we're actually seeing more fish in our waters than we were like 10 years ago. Or maybe this year is bad, but. last year was really, really good. Or maybe that we see a lot of small fish that we know are going to be around and be bigger in the next couple of years. So it's cool. I feel like people have really been able to see like, you know, that fisheries being closed down and management being really strict isn't like, I mean, it's not, it's very contentious. It always is between commercial and recreational fisheries and being a fisheries manager would be a really, really hard Chloe (53:32.682) the effects of it and when it does go correctly, when the science, when it's incorporating all of the science, when it's incorporating, you know, the data that the fishermen are collecting, that's all like the catch, you know, that people are reporting that commercial fishermen are required to log their effort. Those things all go into the stock assessment models, make it more precise and that data helps to, you know, provide better management. And that's. what our science is trying to do. We're trying to provide the best possible data to managers so that they can adequately manage the fishery. Because I mean, we want there to be more of them. We want, you know, fisheries management is by nature economic also. So it's, you know, NOAA fisheries is housed in the department of commerce. So this is an economic resource, not just a really fascinating ecological and animal resource, like it's a wild population that's economically important. Katie (54:29.837) It's significantly both for the commercial sector, but also for all the communities that depend on them and for the tourism sector of those communities. So I really like that you just touched on a ton of different stakeholders in this conversation about the... Chloe (54:29.842) So if we wait, yeah. Yes. Chloe (54:37.433) Exactly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chloe (54:44.854) Yeah. Katie (54:49.305) fishery and the commercial fishermen and the recreational fishermen and the science scientists and how this population has rebounded. And let's hear a little bit about the rebound of this population. Before I get into my closing statements, I just I want to ask you a million things, Chloe. So I think we're going to have to do another podcast episode. I know I don't know where the time goes. I know we're going to have to do it again. But but I want to hear just a brief bit about the rebound. Chloe (55:04.352) Mm-hmm. Chloe (55:08.43) Oh my gosh, it's already 1058! What? Oh my gosh. Well, yeah. Katie (55:19.882) and then we'll get into some closing statements. Chloe (55:23.278) Wow, that went so fast. So, oh gosh, I'm gonna get all the dates and decades wrong, but basically the bluefin fishery started crashing in the 70s and 90s, and then there was like, it was, there was a petition to list it as endangered on the CITES endangered species list, that didn't happen. But the population was... You know, we saw just like year after year from the stock assessments or not. We, I wasn't around the stock assessments were showing the population was decreasing each year and the amount of fish that were making it back to breed and spawn were decreasing those fish weren't producing anymore. So, um, they're really strict, um, management regulations for a long time. And I don't know specifically what those were, but the bluefin tuna, they don't reproduce until they're about 10 years old. So. Katie (56:18.829) so old. That's so old for fish. Chloe (56:20.234) The hard thing is, like, you have people who are very frustrated, who are like, I've been patient, like, I've been, you know, listening to these rules for so long and I'm not seeing any difference. I'm not like, of course you're not because the fish doesn't reproduce for until it's 10 and then that fish doesn't really recruit up into the fishery until it's about five or six years old. So. It takes a really long time to see the effects of management and also for management to know if what they're doing is actually effective. So it's a really tough balancing act. Yeah. Katie (56:53.965) It's a tough balancing act for everyone. I feel like for the communities that are depending on the fish, but also for the scientists to be standing by their decisions and the rule makers for to be standing by their decisions because like you said, ten years, that's so... In the world of fish, that is so old. And how old do these fish get? Generally. Chloe (57:00.26) Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Chloe (57:10.507) I know. We estimate that they can get as old as 40. So I know. But probably most of them are caught or eaten by something else before they get to that age. So it's a fish eat fish world. Katie (57:16.933) WAAA Katie (57:26.029) Right. Fishy fish world. All right, Chloe, that was an incredible conversation. I could go on forever with you. It's amazing. I didn't even get into the Gulf of Mexico. So we'll have to do another one on that one. But I do have a couple questions for you closing up. For any listeners out there, like younger listeners that are interested in what you just spoke about, or, you know, understanding, even if it's from fish to... Chloe (57:34.038) Yeah, same. Yeah. Chloe (57:43.394) Sounds good. Katie (57:53.797) birds. I know that you're a big bird girl too. Studied ornithology, right? Chloe (57:55.731) Yeah. Chloe (57:59.858) Yeah, I did some work with the Cornell Lab of Ornithology as an undergrad and studied lots of different birds there. So it was cool. It was a lot of fun. Yeah. Thank you. Katie (58:05.229) that you're seriously one of the coolest people I've ever met. So, do you have any words of advice for young listeners that are that are fascinated by this conversation and want to get into a field of science or you know what are some words of advice? Chloe (58:19.767) Mm-hmm. Chloe (58:25.93) Yeah, I think that the most important thing is to really like follow your passions and stay true to yourself. Like don't pretend to be someone else just to try to, you know, fit into a certain mold. Like really play to your strengths. Like I mean, everyone has strengths and weaknesses and we can always try to like, you know, bolster up our weaknesses, but just play to your strengths and just don't close the door to any opportunities. You know, like if you get a really incredible opportunity to partake in something. So like, even if you don't know if you're going to love it, just try it. Because the worst thing that happens is like, Oh, maybe you don't have a great time or you realize like, Oh, maybe like working on fishing boats and collecting this data, like maybe that's not for me. Um, so yeah, exactly. Um, and it's really just about like building your network, like professionally and personally. I mean, it's just, you want to be doing what Katie (59:09.785) But I did meet this one cool person. Chloe (59:24.082) you love doing. That's the most important thing, like getting through the like, especially doing a PhD. It's a long time. And it's difficult work. So you have to really, really love it. Yeah, I think that sums it up. Katie (59:37.197) I love that. That reminds me of, I think it's Mark Twain quote where he says, there's the two most important days in your life are when the day you're born and then the day you find out wh

This episode is here to kick off the Katie C. Sawyer Podcast channel and give you, the listener, and idea of what you can expect moving forward.   Katie didn't grow up in the fishing and hunting industry, so how did she end up living a life that completely revolves around it? Find out here.