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Listen to Zooming In at The UnPopulist in your favorite podcast app: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Google Podcasts | RSSAaron: Welcome to Zooming In, a project of The UnPopulist. I'm Aaron Ross Powell. Repressive regimes don't like critics, and they aren't satisfied to let their repression stop at the border. When they set their sights on threatening, coercing, or even killing critics who have fled to other countries, it's called transnational repression. My guest today is Annie Boyajian, Vice President of Policy and Advocacy at Freedom House, which tracks instances of transnational repression and helps governments prevent it.A transcript of today's podcast appears below. It has been edited for flow and clarity.Aaron: What happened to [Saudi Arabian journalist] Jamal Khashoggi?Annie: Great question. We would say that the murder of Jamal Khashoggi is an emblematic case of transnational repression, which is when governments reach beyond their own borders to target critics in an effort to silence dissent. For Mr. Khashoggi, he was lured into a consulate in Istanbul where he was suffocated and dismembered in what is still one of the most shocking cases of transnational repression that we have heard. He was, of course, lured into the Saudi consulate as he was a citizen of Saudi Arabia and a well-known journalist and regime critic.Aaron: The response to this, I think, speaks to a lot of the issues that you raise in the article that you wrote for The UnPopulist because there seemed to be a lot of anger about this from U.S. citizens, shocked that someone who was a U.S. resident, that this would happen to them from journalists because he was a Washington Post journalist. Then nothing really happened. The perpetrators, the ultimate perpetrators, skated. There were no consequences. Why not?Annie: I would say it's the age-old answer to why things don't happen to other human rights abusers or corrupt actors, and it's because there are politics at play. On the one hand, I would say you did see something happen that was unusual, right? The FBI did an investigation and report that you had senators talk about publicly. That is certainly unusual. There were sanctions of varying levels of strength that were imposed on some of the individuals involved. To your point, the Crown Prince himself, the well-known architect of this, according to reports, nothing has happened to him and he's continued to be a player on the world stage.I think part of the reason that this issue shocked people and captured everyone's focus and attention is, one, it was incredibly egregious, but two, it really showed how human rights abuses in a country can have an impact, a global impact, in a way that other human rights issues don't necessarily show. It's just so evident because of the reaching into another country, because of the violation of sovereignty, how the security and human rights issues interact and interplay here. I think that's part of what was so shocking about it.Aaron: How often does this sort of thing happen?Annie: We have a database that looks at instances of physical transnational repression. That's things like assassinations, so the Jamal Khashoggi case, but also assaults, detentions, deportations. We have tracked, since 2014, 854 incidents of transnational repression committed by 38 governments in 91 different countries around the world. That is just a drop in the bucket. Our database does not include the indirect tactics, and that's things like spyware, and the use of spyware is so widespread right now, digital harassment, coercion by proxy.We do think that the database paints a clear picture of the threat posed by transnational oppression and what is happening. We do see additional governments engaging in transnational oppression as we track information in our database. In 2022, I think we saw two additional governments added.Aaron: You said 38 countries in the current date. How spread out is that? Is this something where there's a lot of it's happening across a lot of countries, or is it heavily concentrated among a small handful of regimes?Annie: Great question. I would say the majority of countries engaging in transnational repression are countries that are rated as not free in our Freedom in the World Report. Our top 10 offenders are responsible for 80% of all of the incidents we have in our database. That is China, Turkey, Egypt, Russia, Tajikistan—I'm probably not remembering them all in order—but it's also Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Belarus, Rwanda, Iran, that's the top 10. And 80% that's significant, but it's global. It's in Asia, it's in Latin America, it's in the Middle East, it's everywhere.This is partly because we are such a globalized world. We have tracked at Freedom House 17 consecutive years of decline in democracy around the world. That has been driven, in part, by worsening repression at home. Because we're so globalized, we see people flee, and it's easier sometimes for people to flee now than previously. It's also a lot easier for governments to engage in transnational repression. You can get spyware very cheaply. The digital age, where everyone needs to be online, and everyone is connected has made it very easy for governments to target dissidents and critics, even after they've fled abroad.“We have tracked at Freedom House 17 consecutive years of decline in democracy around the world. That has been driven, in part, by worsening repression at home. Because we're so globalized, we see people flee, and it's easier sometimes for people to flee now than previously. It's also a lot easier for governments to engage in transnational repression.”Aaron: Just staying for a moment on definitional questions, how narrowly tied to, I guess, the state does it need to be to count? What I'm thinking of is you can have an instance where the state leadership basically hires people or sends its own people off into another country to assassinate someone. It's like a very direct tie. Then you might have something like the Salman Rushdie situation, where it's more just we're going to foment a lot of anger at a given person and then hope violence against them falls out of it. Does that count as well?Annie: Great question. We do look at non-state actors who are tied to governments. For our definition, there would need to be some sort of clear linkage between the government and the actor. For example, when a government hires private investigators to surveil, technically, whether those investigators know it or not, they would be engaging in transnational repression. You also have instances where governments have been linked pretty clearly to organized crime or other individuals who are, thugs for hire who will go intimidate and beat people up. That would count.I think it gets a lot more tenuous if it's just anger fomented at someone like Salman Rushdie. That's less clear for the purposes of our database. There are indeed non-state actors who have been involved.Aaron: Can you talk a bit about the link between this and accusations of terrorism? I found that an interesting part of the argument of basically claiming critics are terrorists.Annie: Yes, absolutely. We see governments around the world copy laws or arguments made by democracy for their own purposes all the time. We definitely see this in the case of terrorism. The pervasive use of the term terrorist following the 9/11 attacks by the U.S. and other democracies made it easier. I'm not saying here we should not have called those individuals terrorists. I'm not speaking to that at all.There are a lot of governments now who the first thing they will do when you try to say, "Excuse me, you are targeting someone because they are a critic." They'll say, "No, I'm not. This person is a terrorist." They will toss all sorts of spurious charges at them. This in the case of Russia, of China, of Iran. The government of China is responsible for 30 percent of all the cases in our database. They'll say, "Oh, they're inciting violence or a national security threat. They're a terrorist."“The government of China is responsible for 30 percent of all the cases in our database. They'll say, "Oh, they're inciting violence or a national security threat. They're a terrorist."“It's one of the top things we see, one of the top excuses that governments use in going after critics. One of the things we talk about with policymakers is just being really aware and not taking some of these charges at face value, particularly when the government's making the allegations are ones we have documented as engaging in transnational repression.Aaron: Is the audience for this terrorist label? If I'm a repressive regime that wants to target a critic overseas and I am now publicly labeling that critic a terrorist. The people that I'm doing that labeling for, you've mentioned, to some extent, it's an excuse you can give to other countries. I was not just targeting a critic. This person was dangerous and I was therefore within my rights or justified. Is there also an element of talking to their own people in doing that? Even in authoritarian regimes, if you can convince the people that you're doing these things for their own good, that's an easier sell?Annie: Absolutely. Transnational repression is one of a wide array of tactics that governments use when they're trying to repress, and control, and manipulate their population. Particularly for individuals who only have access to state propaganda. Or only consume state propaganda for a variety of reasons, it's a very effective argument to make for their domestic audience. It's part of the reason why they do it. Definitely, in terms of the countries that do engage in propaganda, I think, the propaganda arm goes hand in hand with any charges of transnational or any allegations of terrorism.“Transnational repression is one of a wide array of tactics that governments use when they're trying to repress, and control, and manipulate their population.”Or any of the other charges they lob at individuals. We see this, in Hong Kong and mainland China all the time in the way that Chinese state-owned publications talk about human rights lawyers and activists and others.Aaron: Why do they care so much? If I'm in a repressive regime, everybody in my country is, reading and listening to and watching state-run media. I have a pretty strong hold on power. I know that murdering this random journalist or college professor or whatever they happen to be on foreign soil, it might not get me thrown out of power. The United States is not going to go in and like have regime change in Saudi Arabia because of this murder, but it's going to cause me trouble on the world stage. Why not just ignore these critics? If they fled the country, maybe they're not that much of a threat anyway.Annie: It's a great question. It's something that, so I've been in D.C. policy circles for 20 years, which, I don't know, does that mean I'm doing something right or doing something wrong? That's a whole other conversation for another day. If you were thinking logically as an authoritarian, and then this is where you start wildly speculating about just the dynamics of human psychology. If you're thinking logically, you just do only a little bit of repression, right? Not enough to catch international attention, not enough to outrage your population. Some of these really more dramatic acts, I think there are a variety of reasons.Certain regimes are very sensitive to their public image. Definitely, this is true in the case of the People's Republic of China. Sometimes I do really wonder if it is a function of some of these leaders just not having anyone brave enough to be a critical voice and tell, are you sure? You sure you want to do this? In some cases, it really has pushed public opinion too far. I think Saudi Arabia, they're obviously very engaged on the political stage, but it took a long time and this still comes up as an issue, as it should. There's still a lot more accountability that is needed there.Aaron: How do we get that accountability, especially given that often these repressive regimes, Saudi Arabia has a lot of oil and a lot of connections throughout, say, the US. China is an enormous market. It's a manufacturing powerhouse. There seem to be a lot of incentives to find excuses to look the other way on this behavior, especially among the people who are actually in a position to potentially do something about it. The Washington Post journalists can gripe all they want to, but they're not going to be able to depose the head of Saudi Arabia or impose sanctions.Annie: I think that is why education on this topic is so important, because it is a violation of sovereignty and it does directly impact the security of individuals in democracies. In the United States, we saw the Iranian regime try to kidnap a women's rights activist, and their plot was that they were going to kidnap her from her home in Brooklyn and stick her on a boat, take her to Venezuela, and then from Venezuela back to Iran. Then when that didn't work, they tried to assassinate her, I think twice now.A friend of mine is an activist from Hong Kong. He's at home in his apartment in LA, and heard a strange noise and looked outside, and there was a drone hovering outside his apartment trying to take pictures. Okay. He didn't run out and tackle the drone. How can we prove who's operating it? This is a real violation of U.S. law. It's a violation of the 91 countries where it has occurred. For us, how to get the accountability, you're right. It's not an easy answer. There will always be political realities at play, but education around this issue and then codification of a definition in law.Unfortunately, there's a mix of governments [that engage in transnational repression], so I don't want to paint the picture that only authoritarians are doing this, but it is certainly mostly countries that we rate as not free.What transnational oppression is, is the key first step because that definition, everything stems from that. Do you need additional criminal law? Do you need training for government officials? Do you need to adjust immigration law to allow quick, easy entry for people who may be targeted? We would certainly say yes. Do you need additional resources and support for people who have been targeted once they reach your shores? We would say yes, but all of that starts with a definition and then coordination among governments that want to address the issue, which we're starting to see.The G7 has talked about this issue and is continuing to work on it. There were some statements released alongside the Summit for Democracy and it's not only authoritarian regimes engaging in this. Unfortunately, there's a mix of governments, so I don't want to paint the picture that only authoritarians are doing this, but it is certainly mostly countries that we rate as not free. Democracies are really going to have to work together because we see the non-democracies working together, and so we don't want to be caught flat-footed on this one.Aaron: What would defining it clearly, narrowly within the scope of law accomplish if these are either lawless regimes or—I guess let me ask it this way. It seems like if I am one country and I assassinate someone within the territory of another country, I've committed murder. That's already illegal. I have potentially violated the sovereignty. That's defined in different ways. What do we gain from carving out a specific legal standard about this thing?Annie: There are actually two areas of law where I think you would want the definition. One would be Title 22, which is all the foreign affairs stuff, right, where you can have that broader, more expansive definition that really describes all the ways that transnational oppression manifests. Things we haven't talked about yet like coercion by proxy, where here I am in the US, I have family back home somewhere, they are getting threats and pressure and harassment from the government. Codifying it there will let you, as I mentioned, train government officials who might come in contact with it so that they're less susceptible to, for example, seeing an arrest warrant and picking someone up just based on the fact that it's an arrest warrant, whereas if they've gotten training and they know, aha, this is coming from a government that engages in transnational oppression, let's turn a more critical eye. Which in the US, I do think that there is already wide awareness and growing awareness at the federal level, a lot more to be done at state and local, so that's one whole basket. Then there's Title 18, which is criminal law, and I think there's plenty of robust discussion and good debate that could happen around should we, if we do criminalize, what should it look like?If you look at the cases that have been prosecuted already, Department of Justice is having to get really creative in what they are using. Murder is pretty straightforward, obviously, that is illegal, but in the case of some individuals who were surveilling and harassing folks here in the US, they had to use stalking charges or conspiracy to commit stalking. In the case of the Ryan Air flight that Belarus forced down so that they could apprehend a blogger, there were some Americans on that plane, and so the United States used a law that I, until that moment, did not know existed, which was conspiracy to commit air piracy.I think we have heard repeatedly, there's a real gap in law, and I think this is where you want to make sure you're protecting civil liberties, and where robust debate and discussion from lawyers is well warranted of, okay, if we are adding, what does it look like? There's also the advocacy value, telling the People's Republic of China, "These people are being convicted in the United States on conspiracy to commit stalking" does not have the same ring to it as saying they're being charged on engaging in transnational repression. There's real value in a democracy being able to say, "No, can't do that here. It's a crime here."“There's also the advocacy value, telling the People's Republic of China, ‘These people are being convicted in the United States on conspiracy to commit stalking,' does not have the same ring to it as saying they're being charged on engaging in transnational repression. There's real value in a democracy being able to say, ‘No, can't do that here. It's a crime here.'“We are, of course, not so naive as to think that fixing laws in different democracies will stop this from happening completely, but it's an important step. I think coordination of democracies over time will send a very clear message that this is not tolerable. You got to follow that up with other actions, which we could talk about all day long.Aaron: I was actually going to ask about those other actions.Because it seems like if I'm China and I hire some people to harass you because you've been criticizing China or I hire someone to take you out because I really want to escalate things, those people, it's not like I'm sending senior government officials or people of I guess consequence in the regime's eyes to go and do this stuff. It almost looks like the mob takes out a hit and so you throw the person who carried out the hit in jail but the mob boss doesn't really suffer any consequences. What meaningful kinds of consequences other than democracy saying, "No, we really mean it. You shouldn't do that."Annie: Yes, fair question. Listen, I actually think most folks would be really surprised about the level of officials who are directly engaging in this. I will say I was speaking to a journalist from a country in the Middle East, she's wanting to be under the radar for now so I won't name the country, not Saudi Arabia, different country, and is living in Germany. She was beaten up in Germany by a diplomat from the embassy in Germany. There is a level of hubris that goes into this and we have seen in some countries it really does seem like certain diplomats are traveling around with their portfolio almost being transnational oppression.I think this is a foreign policy issue. It is also a domestic policy issue and you really to be effective have to address it as both. On the foreign policy side of things, there are sanctions that should be imposed on individuals engaging in this but also on individuals directing transnational oppression. This should be an issue that is routinely raised publicly and privately with the government. It should be an issue at multilateral bodies as it is starting to be because you can't just get at this obviously with one simple law.We have talked a lot about the conditioning of foreign assistance which if we did it could be effective if we didn't allow loopholes. The GAO for your readers who want to dig in more actually released a very good report about a month ago that looks at some of the options within the US context. Say that they were talking about do you bring in arms control policy? Do you bring in other existing measures that have not been fully deployed? There is a lot more room on the targeted sanctions front quite frankly.Aaron: On the technology front because the technology is making this—It's either easier to find the people you want to find or easier to track them, or easier to harass them. Should we as liberal regimes be cracking down on the use of spyware and the sale of these tools? I ask about that again in this question of incentives because while the United States government might not be participating in targeted assassinations overseas, we do buy and use spyware. Other liberal regimes do as well. What do we do about that considering that the countries that might want to crack down are the same ones who are also good consumers of these products?Annie: It's a huge problem. I would say the short answer is yes, and. You already have companies like NSO Group which is the purveyor of the famous Pegasus [spyware software that allowed governments who bought it to hack the phones of dissidents, journalists and other critics] which actually Jamal Khashoggi had on his computer. Also, it's popped up with dozens of human rights defenders who we know. That's already on the entity list for exports. You can't buy that. There are plenty of purveyors of cheap spyware, and many of those companies are not in the United States. It used to be that just a handful of companies existed and now there is to your point a proliferation.If companies in democracies stop exporting, that can help in the sense that at least economically it can make it more expensive. Maybe somehow there you limit it. You also need to make sure and this goes to my earlier point about you want a definition so you can provide training. You need to make sure that people who may be targeted are receiving training in digital hygiene. How do you stay safe and secure online? When you see violations, you need to be able to prosecute it. In the US, we need a comprehensive privacy law. It's a very complex web and quite frankly, some of this is going to be very difficult to walk back.In that sense, a lot of the human rights defenders we work with, it is the informed risk on their end and people needing to do things these days like go out and have conversations in fields. Particularly with the government of China and the way that they're exporting some of these technologies to countries around the world. We just need to be very aware and have eyes open and raise these as issues if you're a policymaker. Back to my earlier point, when you see misuse, impose targeted sanctions and make sure that you are prohibiting export when you can.Aaron: You also mentioned immigration as a way to help this, to make it easier for people to get out of these repressive regimes and seek some degree of protection in other countries. How do we define regime critics for that purpose? If we're going to carve out special exceptions to immigration laws because I'm going to assume that we can't just radically liberalize immigration laws because that seems to be an uphill battle constantly. Probably made more complicated by the fact that the countries that Americans seem to be most skeptical about letting people in from are often the most repressive regimes. But if I come to you as an agent of the state and say, "I'm a regime critic, let me in." How do you know? What's the standard for regime criticism?Annie: Yes, great question. I am not an immigration lawyer, so we're going to rapidly be in territory that I have no business speaking in detail about. I would say, actually, there's legislation that was introduced by Senator Menendez that was a visa for human rights defenders. I think the way they got at that it was for human rights defenders at urgent risk. They were describing the risks faced and perhaps not the definition. There would certainly need to be vetting. You don't want someone to claim something inaccurately.We do think that we work with folks under threat all the time, and there are actually some European countries that have some interesting emergency visa options for folks. Obviously, in the EU context, it's easier. Some of the European countries have been welcoming folks not from the EU. We have talked with policymakers in the US about whether that can be educational and informative for what it can look like here in the US. Can we expand some of the existing categories?Aaron: This is very clearly a big problem, and one that will be challenging to address because of complexities, because of incentives, lots of reasons that we can't just wave a wand and fix it tomorrow. If there was one concrete step that we could take, we say, like the policy level, could take right now to make things better for people who are in real danger because they've been criticizing repressive regimes. What would be that one like, "Let's do this?"Annie: This is a great question. As a policy person, I'm going to be like, "No, don't make me pick one." In terms of like, what will save a life tomorrow, it would be, let's get an emergency visa. If you're talking about pick one thing that would be most effective, I would say, let's do the definition so that we can start mandating training and outreach. That is, to the great credit of the U.S. government, that is happening pretty extensively, at least as compared to other democratic countries. The FBI, for example, has a whole webpage dedicated to transnational oppression. You can call the FBI hotline and report it. They are trying to do outreach to potentially targeted communities.“In terms of like, what will save a life tomorrow, it would be, let's get an emergency visa. If you're talking about pick one thing that would be most effective, I would say, let's do the definition so that we can start mandating training and outreach. That is, to the great credit of the US government, that is happening pretty extensively, at least as compared to other democratic countries.”There are some good-faith efforts already happening there. I think it's going to take years of work. This, it's going to sound strange that I say, this is an issue that makes me feel hopeful in a way that 20 years of other work doesn't. That is for two reasons. Number one, as I mentioned earlier, this is an issue where it so clearly shows the link between human rights abuses abroad and security and rights in your own country. The interest in this and the work on this is so bipartisan. That is not a small thing in this environment, as you at The UnPopulist know well.The other thing about this that makes me so hopeful is the human rights defenders themselves. They have been through things we cannot fathom and they are still going. They have family members who have disappeared because of their work back in their home countries, or who are actively getting threats. They are actively getting threats and they are still going. To me, who am I to throw in the towel if they haven't? In that sense, it's going to take years, but here we are. We're ready to keep going.“The other thing about this that makes me so hopeful is the human rights defenders themselves. They have been through things we cannot fathom and they are still going. They have family members who have disappeared because of their work back in their home countries, or who are actively getting threats. They are actively getting threats and they are still going. To me, who am I to throw in the towel if they haven't? In that sense, it's going to take years, but here we are. We're ready to keep going.”Aaron: Thank you for listening to Zooming In at The UnPopulist. If you enjoy this show, please take a moment to review us and Apple Podcasts and also check out ReImagining Liberty, our sister podcast at The UnPopulist, where I explore the emancipatory and cosmopolitan case for radical social, political, and economic freedom. Zooming In is a project of The UnPopulist. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.theunpopulist.net

In this second episode with Aaron Chapman, we discuss how much interest rates actually matter. Over the past couple of years, low interest rates have allowed people to get into a deal and see immediate cashflow. But with interest rates rising, many are concerned that they are not seeing immediate positive cash flow. Is that a deal breaker? Should investors sit on the sidelines and wait for rates to drop once again? Or should investors be thinking about real estate like other business models and be willing to put their capital into a deal and expect to see profits occur over a longer time horizon? Tune in to hear Aaron's unique take on these questions.    Aaron Chapman is a veteran in the finance industry with 25 years of experience helping clients better understand, source, and finance cash-flow positive investment properties. He advises over 100 clients a month in the acquisition and financing of their investment properties and primary residences. Aaron is ranked in the top 1% of mortgage loan processors in the country, in an industry of over 300,000 licensed loan originators, closing in excess of 100 transactions per month. Episode links: https://apps.apple.com/uy/app/qjo-investment-tool/id1533823468 https://www.aaronbchapman.com/ --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: What's going on everyone? Welcome to another episode of the remote real estate investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today joining me again, I got Aaron Chapman. And in case you missed, here's prior episodes, definitely go back and give that a listen. But Aaron is a lender in the residential mortgage industry. And he's got a wealth of knowledge and experience under his belt. And today we're talking about how much interest rates actually matter to doing our deals. So let's get into it.   Aaron Chapman, welcome back, man. Good to see you.   Aaron: Good to see you too, man. It's good to be back. In fact, it hasn't been long.   Michael: For those of you that caught our prior episode with Aaron, we are recording this back to back so we figured we just knock it out.   Aaron: I don't I don't have a dozen of these specific shirts for those who are wondering.   Michael: Like, yeah, he bearded his braid exactly the same and wearing the exact same hat and funny, he's in the exact same location. So Aaron, today we're talking about how much rates really matter. And you've been in the mortgage business since 97. For those folks that didn't catch your bio and background go and get that first episode listen to let's talk about like how much rates matter, man, like rates are creeping up, not keeping up but seem to be running up as to where they were previously. And I'm hearing a lot of folks kind of get scared and spooked and want to hang on the sidelines until rates come down. So give us a little bit insight is that right thinking? Is that the wrong thinking help drop some knowledge?   Aaron: Well, it's I like to tell everybody so level of your everything has to do with a level your comfort, right? Your ability to get in there and, and slug it out and make things work? Because it all has to be about interest rate. And are you really a real estate investor, because that's why I work with as a real estate investor, opportunity is only sitting in front of you at the time that it's in front of you. And often people are trying to get the market to line up and I look at that kind of like watching a star football player sitting on the bench on the sidelines, waiting for the perfect time to jump on the field to get on the highlight reel. Well,   Michael: That's such a good analogy.   Aaron: We're on the field at the time the game is being played, right? They're not sitting on the sidelines at all. It's amazing how often people think that they have the capability to time something and most people trying to time it have never time the damn thing in their life. Right. In fact, most of them are fairly new new investors or investors with maybe you've had five or six houses. So you feel like you're a seasoned investor. I've been doing this for 24 years I've been at this since 1997. I'm barely seasoned in what I do. And the reason I feel that I'm barely seasons, because I do over 1300 transactions a year for real estate investors, I get to see where a lot of people are making decisions, or a lot of people are making mistakes and where a lot of people are doing it right where a lot of people failing or a lot of people are succeeding.   What I tell all my all the people I work with is there's this old saying good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment, great way to learn on the grade school playground of very, very tough way to learn in real estate. So don't go about trying to figure out things that way yourself. Reach out to me, I got to see for 1000s of people have made decisions. I'll guide you through that telling you stories. I don't answer questions. I tell stories as to what I've seen other people do. So you will have practical data, not speculation in theory, and then hopefully, hopefully, we're able to guide you in a way that makes you successful now is it going to be successful every time you make a decision? No, you're going to hit a brick wall between those brick walls, that just means you got to change your direction and keep moving and keep moving and keep moving.   So then you eventually find success because you become nimble enough become successful, it does not benefit me to close a deal and you fail, because that's only one deal. I need your 100th deal. That's what makes my business work is to do this dozens of time with you not just one time and walk away. That's not the business I built. So when it comes to interest rates, you need to get comfortable with it and understand that you're never the price of money is always going to move. But what we also have is the price of housing is always moving. You know, we talked about in last episode, the average rent is going up by 12%. Year over year. I don't expect that to be sustainable. I think it's probably a go up, you know, maybe seven, but it's going to keep going right? We have we're short how many houses right now in the United States,   Michael: I think like 5.2 million or something of that effect.   Aaron: 5.2 million and what's the building looking like right now people are not there's not a lot of construction going on, compared to what the demand is. We've got a hurricane, they just wiped out on how many houses we don't even know that the full total that devastation and then the ability of the supply chain to be able catch up with that. And then of course there's talk of another pandemic coming which we saw the effects of that one, and how well handled that mess was. You start stacking all these things up rents and quarterly rental increases are here to stay. So when you're on that end of it, and you get to continue to increase your rents effect, let's do the math real quick here. Let's say, let's say you got $100,000. House, you're renting it for $1,000 a month. Right. And now you get to raise the rent by 3%. Well, they're saying you're only getting say 60 bucks a month in cash flow. That's not sexy. You're not getting excited, right?   Michael: That's a couple of Chipotle is with guacamole.   Aaron: Exactly. So 60 bucks right now, not a big deal. So you raise the rents by 3%? What's 3% of 1030 bucks, 30 bucks, nothing. It's actually nobody's excited. Again, what's really cool about is your tenant won't get excited. And I can just up and move and know the night and dump concrete down the toilet. Right? So it went up by 30 bucks. But you're making $60 a month cash flow, you're one now you're making 90. So what percentage did your cashflow go up by?   Michael: 50%.   Aaron: That's a 50% compound growth in your cash flow. So what you start to see here is over time, it's not going to happen right away. You know, it's not, it's not Swift, but it is certain that you will continue to get this compound growth in the double digits a year over year over year. But as we talked about, in the last episode, go back and listen and get my get my my tool, the QJO investment tool, and run these numbers, you're gonna find that you're paying back less and less and less for that set mortgage you have, even if the rates go eight, nine, 10%, you're paying back less, because inflation is eroding the dollar. But yet you're increasing at double digits. As far as your cash flow, there will come a point that one catches the other and you surpass it. It's much like any investment that a person does. It's amazing how we can talk ourselves into getting into other types of investment vehicles, like all but if you stick with it for three, four years, you're gonna see it really grow or 10 years or whatever. But yet you get into a house. And also we think of it as an expense. When it comes to real estate. It's not you're not spending money and going into debt. You're a business owner, that is now the pass through for this capital, you get to increase.   Michael: I love that. I love that. Aaron answer me this because I think it's something that I've been hearing from a lot of people I know for sure, in the Roofstock Academy is folks saying, Michael, five months ago, I could go buy a house for 150 grand and make 100 bucks cash flow at three and a half 4%. Now that same have that same price, the same purchase price is still 150 grand, but now I'm paying seven and a half percent that eroded all my cash flow. Does that mean I should still go buy that deal? And hang on for those first couple of years? Because I'm going to get that double digit compound growth with the rental increase? Or do I just need to go find a new deal? Or potentially a different market?   Aaron: I've got I've got a few answers that I would give right. And I sometimes depends on the individual, right? Because I do ask them Okay, so what do you think right? Now let them tell me, because I want to find out what's going on your head, right? So tell me what your first instinct is. But if they're asked me exactly what I would do, I mean, again, I might get cut out here, guys, when I was gonna have your balls attached or are they there for decoration, right? Nobody has ever made a fortune because they they want out of the gate. Nothing is ever has ever paid what a few things are paid off out of the gate, right. But most times they don't. We had a history of people making this amazing cash on cash return for the last, what 10 years, it was the easiest thing in the world to sell cash on cash return for the real estate sales side of it. I think my personal belief is the real estate sales side of it has actually put themselves in a corner, and they're trying to claw their way out of it. Because we spent so much time talking cash on cash. We never talked about the rest of the ways people made money. It never got discussed.   For the last eight, nine years. I've talked about everything but cash on cash return, if they take that metric and throw it away, take their performance somebody gave you because that's that's Greek for bullcrap. It doesn't mean anything. They made those numbers up. Right? So let's talk about reality. Right? And reality is business is going to cost you something nobody has ever opened up a shoe store was profitable in the first five years, right, you have to have a certain amount of capital to get started, everything needs a certain amount of capital to get started. You're the CEO, the CEO of your startup real estate investment firm, that means you are going to be a lot more discerning about what kind of property you buy, when you're not making $200 a month cash flow out of the gate than you would be when your before making cash no matter what happened because of interest rates are so low, they softened all the blows.   But now, because of things the way they are, you're going to become a better CEO, you're going to sink more, you're going to take more time to understand what you're buying, you're going to buy the right property. And that's what it's all about. What can you keep reasonably rented for the entire time you own it, and what can you raise rents on that's it. If you can get that to line up and that alone, you will continue you will see that compound increase we were talking about. You may have to nurse that that investment along for the first couple of years. But then you're going to get that compound set and forget it kind of growth. And that's where I tell people it's going to teach you to be a real estate investor now. The people that are not real estate investors, they're out we're not gonna have to deal with them anymore. You're not gonna have to fight with the masses of people try To get in on that one deal and bidding at too high, what you're going to have is people gonna be very, very discerning, and you're become a smarter person as a result.   Michael: Yeah, I think it makes a lot of sense. And I was just going to ask you, but I think you kind of beat me to it, do you think we're going to see the investment investor pool thin out, because folks are looking at deals and saying, the numbers don't work, I can't invest in this, or they bought deals two months ago, and are now getting burned by it?   Aaron: Yeah, I think we're going to see people get out of it. And we're gonna have some of the true investors be able to capitalize on it, that people understand what they're getting into, they're gonna jump in there, and they're gonna be able to weather this properly. Because it's about the it's about the real estate itself. It's not about the loan, it never was about the loan, you know, we had the loan was a way of getting a lot of people involved. And probably a lot of people shouldn't have been involved with, they got involved anyway, right. And so they're still going to do well, because what's really cool about that, if you got that in that loan, that 3%, or 4%, or 5%, loan, that is an, that's an asset in itself. That's a massive asset. In fact, any loan for 30 years is a massive asset. But that's even even bigger assets. So now you have a tradable commodity, if you will, because now it's like hey, I can I can hold this house, and I can literally kind of sell this into with a with an owner financing kind of deal or something to that effect.   Now how that will play out, don't say Aaron Chapman said it's okay to do this. You got to check with your lender, make sure you're not putting yourself in a bad spot, talk to an attorney, all that kind of thing. There's instruments to make that happen. I'm not your guy to guide you through that. I'm just saying that that's a valuable thing to lock money up in single digits. Think about that single digits, because if you go back to 1971, all the way till 2009, the average interest rate for somebody living in a house was 9.1%. If you take that 1971 Till now, the average interest rate was 7.76%. For somebody living in the house, that was not real estate investors. The only reason it went down from 9.1 to 7.76. Is because of quantitative easing. When did quantitative easing start, Michael?   Michael: Man, I didn't know I thought it was just gonna be an interview. I didn't know it was gonna be a frickin test. When did it start?   Aaron: I'd love to quiz everybody. Because here's why your mind starts thinking and now you're gonna remember the answer. We're gonna give it to you.   Michael: That's true.   Aaron: Hopefully, because I'm gonna ask you next time. So quantitative easing didn't start till after the crash crash happened in 2008 2008. We'll talk about that in our next time we come together because that right there had to teach resiliency to a lot of people. Well, then the government decided, Okay, we're gonna start this quantitative easing thing, we're gonna take US Treasury capital flowing through the Fed. And we're going to start buying into mortgage backed securities and into treasuries in was a corporate bonds and all of these other things. And as a result to doing that started January 1, 2009, till the end of March 2010, the Fed dumped $1.25 trillion into the market, just in that short window of time to bring interest rates down and start getting the economy going again. But now, they couldn't stop it, and they kept it going and kept going kept going, then you get to the pandemic of 2020. Now, we just talked about 1.25 trillion between March January 2009, to end of March 2010. Now you get to March 20, 2020. From March 20 to march 30. They dumped in another trillion in 10 days to basically bring the market off of where it was because the market crashed. Right. We had a massive meltdown in the in stocks.   What happens? What happens if people have more? Have stocks on margin when stocks dropped that far?   Michael: Oh big problem.   Aaron: Yeah, massive, I've got a margin call, right? Well, banks don't take our money that we deposit and just stick it in the vault, right? They invest it places, they need to make money on that money, they're gonna pay us our little pittance of whatever, right? They're gonna continue to make money on it? Well, a lot of times, they're gonna have that money into the markets and stocks and other equities. And as a result of that, they may have no margin, they did have no margin, they gotta pay a margin call. They can't just go back to the coffers. Because the the vaults empty, they have it all on investment. So they have to sell assets, what assets did they sell, they sold mortgage backed securities. Interest rates spiked during that window of time. It was it was amazing how much they spiked. The fact got to the point, I couldn't lock rates now. Now and again, the rates will be published might have five people on my team all ready to go. And I just kept refreshing the rates all day. As soon as there's ready to go, we could we'd lock 50 loans at a time. And they were ugly rates, but people needed to lock.   And so we had this message that we're going to continue to keep business flowing during that window of time. But then they got that trillion dollars dumped in there, they got seeing semi stable, they're dumping 30 to $40 billion a month in the market, sometimes more hundreds of billions of dollars a month in the market, trying to keep this money flowing. And that's how we got our interest rates down into the threes and fours.   So because of that, all that capital going in there, we had this this run on lower interest rates. So from January 2009. Up until just this last year, we had all this capital dumped into the keep the rate so that's what gave our average that a little bit lower point. But you know, some people are saying well, can we just get an ARM and wait for the rates to go back down? What makes you think they're going back down? The only time they went down from that average of 9.1 was when they dumped eight Point $9 trillion into the markets? Are they doing that again? I think they've learned their lesson not to do that. Michael: Yeah.   Aaron: So if that's the case, and let's just say that's the case, let's say, somebody's actually going to learn from history, and we're not going to erase history, we're not going to call it you know, whatever, whatever make up whatever we want to make up about it and say we're triggered by it, we're actually gonna remember this move was a bad move. I don't see interest rates getting back anything lower than what we have right now, this might be the lowest interest rates that we see in our lifetimes.   Michael: Interesting. Over the last 30-40 years, when we've seen interest rates spike like they have hasn't there been a pretty sharp decline after the fact?   Aaron: We have seen that a lot in our lifetime, just because of what I was just talking about with the Fed manipulating it. But prior to that, we didn't see that very much. We saw interest rates, hovering in fact, I got in the industry in 1997, the interest rates are in the sevens. And then that was for owner occupied. And then when they went down, like 6.875, I got this refi boom going on. In fact, you know, I was working two jobs, I was running heavy equipment in the morning, from 3am till noon, they go to the office from two till 10pm, I sleep four hours a day, for for a full year. But for the until those rates dropped below 7%, I was able to replace my income of 50, whatever, thousand a year at the time, and got full time into this industry. Well, as a result of that, you know, we got this 6% thing going on. And it never really got much lower than that we saw a window where the during the mid 2000s, that I was able to get an adjustable rate loan, like a five year ARM don't like 5.75. But that was it. It wasn't until quantitative easing do we start seeing these enormously low rates.   So we're not seeing these massive swings, like we see now, then the swings happen to be because we have a global market that everybody's tapped in, we get to see everything that's going on in real time, all the time. That's one of the really, really bad things of social media in the way our, our our technology is, what it's done for us has brought us to where we see the slightest thing happened. But on the other side of the world, it kills markets overnight. So that's why I see such massive swings. So some people think, well, if it goes down as we come right back up. We don't know that because there's another black swan waiting right around the corner. Why do we know that because we know what's going to happen in the other country when it happens.   It'd  be one thing we were just a an economy to ourselves. And it was not such a big big market mover. Now we're a global economy. And we have we have crazy people out there running countries, including our own doing stupid things that's causing such a massive swings and so much so much emotion in the market that I can't say it's going to improve. Now it's going to have to I mean, there will be some but to the extent we've seen I don't believe so.   Michael: Yeah. Interesting.   Aaron: Let me just say I pray I'm wrong.   Michael: Yeah. That makes two of us man.   Aaron: You're wrong. We're back in the season. We're good because I'm making another couple million dollars a year.   Michael: I love it. Someone if they didn't have the wisdom of hearing this show five years ago, three years ago, when they got their five, one ARM and now they got two years left on it and they got a 5% They got the ability to lock in a 6% for 30 years say? Or do they roll the dice and let it roll for another two years? See where interest rates land? What are you doing?   Aaron: I think goes back to that are your balls attached situation, just see, see what you're willing to do? Right, you're the ones guy put your head on the pillow at night, you got to be able to understand how you feel about. Me, I love to control things for as long as I can control it. I'll take my lumps. And I'll take that 6% all day long. Because I would much rather allow inflation to erode the dollar over a long period of time. Rather than forcing me in a situation like that. I've had too many people that I've talked to that did the ARM thing in somebody else's request even at my own. I mean, I did the there's something out there right now called the all in one. This is a big deal. Back in the early 2000s. We sold something very, very similar to this. It just wasn't called the all in one.   And when the market freaked out in 2008. And they started freezing these people's credit lines, I got numerous calls saying What did you put me in? Because I didn't know what was going to happen. Now I do know. And everybody says, well, they're not going to do that. What makes you think I'm not going to do that? The banking industry will do whatever the heck they want to do. They'll shut down. They will kill product, they will not honor locks. They'll wipe anything out that makes it work for them on the next day. They don't care about what they committed to today. They care about what it keeps them in existence tomorrow. As a result of that. I know that's what they do. I've seen them do it. I can't in good conscience do anything but tell person Hey, the 30 year fix so far is the only one with a proven track record.   Michael: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. How did you think about the interest? I know you said it's not all about the interest rate. But let's put that on the shelf for a minute. If someone's got a property that they're not thrilled with its performance, but they've got this outrageously low rate and a 30 year fixed. Do you think time is going to heal that wound or do you think they should maybe look to move into something else at a higher rate, but that they might be a little bit happier with?   Aaron: I think it really, really depends upon the scenario what's making them so unhappy about it, is there a possibility to try to change whatever is making them happy unhappy about that there's something about the property, this specific thing that's creating a difficulty with it, is it just not being rented because of this or because of that, you know, it may be one of those times, we have to spend some time understanding what's happening in the market that's causing that property to be what it is, right? People coming by either I don't want to rent this thing. Because of this, or because of that, it could be a very simple thing. You know, when we own something we don't see with our lens very, very well, we see, hey, this is what the possibility is because we can only see from one angle, but when you get the whole market's angle on a multiple people are willing to come through a look at it, sit them down and ask them, Hey, can you tell me what what about this place? What would have to happen to that make it something so yes, I do want to rent this, or yes, this I can make my home for five years?   Understand that is sometimes you might have to bite the bullet, put a few bucks into it. And next thing, you know, now you have a very low interest rate, which again, that right there is, is is a very, very valuable piece in itself. And then you have whatever changed on this house that now makes it what it needs to be. And its location that might be something's completely, you know, one of these things you can't fix, right? You have to find the one person in the world that wants that and carry a note for them and see if you can swing something like that. But if it's something that's changeable because of aesthetics, or or usability, or it's just whatever that might be, you might have to bite the bullet and fix that one thing.   But investigate it first, before you try and make a very, very big decision. Like leave it as is and suck it up and write it out or dump it and move because I've seen I've got a very good friend of mine, named Joel, he owns a lot of shopping centers. I don't understand shopping centers. This guy's like the walking talking Stephen Hawking of shopping center this guy, just look at it, tell you what's wrong with it, and make it make money overnight. And the guy's amazing at what he's able to do. And because one person can't make it work, you have a guy like Joel come in, he looks at it makes an offer, they sell it cheap. He spends a few bucks. And now that thing's fully rented, and it's worth 10 times what he paid for it. It's just a matter of getting the right perspective. Take the time, understand the market, get the perspective.   Michael: I love that. I love that. Aaron, I want to get you out of here until next time, but in the meantime, where can folks if they didn't catch on the first episode, reach out to learn more about you or get a hold of one of your loans?   Aaron: Just go to aaronchapman.com And if that one doesn't work, go to aaronbchapman.com. Another good place to just Google Aaron Chapman. There's like five of us out there that pop up on Google there's only one bearded redneck lender there is a pastor there's a there's a English soccer player there is a an author and then camera with the other guy is but yeah, there's five and I'm an author as well so you can go to you can look me up on Amazon that kind of stuff. I'm working on another book got a few things cooking.   Michael: Right on man love it. Well hey, this was awesome as always and until next time, looking forward to it be well.   Aaron: Thanks, buddy. Good to see you again.   Michael: Likewise.    Alright everyone that was our episode A big thank you to Aaron for coming on again dropping some fantastic wisdom, insights and knowledge. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, feel free to leave us a rating or review and we look forward to seeing the next one. Happy investing

Subscribe to Reactionary Minds: Apple Podcasts | SpotifyThe following is a transcript of Reactionary Minds’ interview with Stephanie Muravchik and Jon A. Shields, authors of the book Trump’s Democrats. The transcript has been lightly edited and condensed for clarity.Aaron Ross Powell: I’m Aaron Ross Powell, and this is Reactionary Minds, a project of The UnPopulist. A good way to understand the appeal of Donald Trump is to talk to the people who voted for him. One of the most interesting ways to approach that is to talk to voters and counties that flipped, long voting for Democratic Party candidates until suddenly in 2016, they didn’t. That’s the background for Trump's Democrats, a book that looks at three communities that turned to Trumpism after having been solidly blue basically forever.I’m joined today by its authors, Professors Stephanie Muravchik and Jon A. Shields of Claremont McKenna College. Their fascinating book explores why Trump clicked with these voters and why many of the very things that turned so many of us off about him were the very things they found so appealing. We’ll discuss machine politics, political bosses, honor cultures, localism and what it means to identify strongly with a narrowly circumscribed place. The story that emerges is a good deal more complex and nuanced than the easy tales we sometimes tell ourselves about us and them.Stephanie, Jon, your book is part of a genre we have seen come out of the Trump years, with academics and journalists going to small towns that voted for Trump, sitting in diners and asking Trump voters why they believe what they believe. I think your book is the best example of that I have come across, the one that I certainly have learned the most from and the one that puts the most work into really getting at the ideas motivating Trump supporters. Can you tell us a bit about what prompted this and how you approached this project?Jon A. Shields: Yes. Thanks, Aaron, for having us, and thanks for the compliment. This is a book that really started on election night in 2016. Like lots of Americans, and, I’m sure, like yourself, we were up late that night watching the returns come in. It was really the most astonishing and surprising election in our lifetime, in our living memory. Immediately, we were eager to get outside of our little academic town and get a feel for what happened.In the weeks that followed, our sense of surprise really deepened. First, we discovered that there were all these Obama-Trump counties. There were all these places that had voted for Obama on two occasions—in fact, there were over 200-some counties that did this—and then flipped for Trump. That itself is very surprising and unusual, especially in this age of polarization, where partisan IDs and loyalties are especially sticky. But then, quickly, we not only discovered that there were all these Obama places that flipped for Trump; we also discovered that a lot of these places had voted Democratic for a very long time. Many of these places had a pretty unbroken record of voting for Democratic presidents, some stretching back to Reagan, some to Nixon, some much further back. In fact, one of the counties we ended up studying was a place that had never voted for a Republican president in its history. This is a county formed in the 19th century and—it’s really astonishing—had never voted for a Republican. In the Western world, that’s probably the longest streak of any polity voting for just one party.That was interesting. Of course, we’re accustomed to thinking and talking about the Nixon Democrats in ’72 or the Reagan Democrats in ’84. In some ways—in lots of ways, actually—the Trump Democrats were much more interesting. Nixon won in a huge landslide in ’72, as did Reagan in ’84, so it’s not so surprising that in those years, you get lots of Democratic places that flip. That’s not weird. In 2016, Trump lost the popular vote, and yet he managed to win some of the most loyal Democratic communities in the country despite that.So we got really interested in not just the red-blue divide, but a divide that had opened up in blue America. We were curious. We wanted to make sense of what had happened. In our college community, Trump is a loathed figure, a sort of proto-authoritarian, a dangerous person. We more or less agree with that point of view. I think there’s a lot to that, but then there are all these other Democratic communities that see him in a radically different way.They see him as one of the greatest presidents in American history, and so we were really deeply interested in that question. Then all these places we studied in 2016, I should add, remain loyal to Trump in 2020. These are places that are really drifting into the Republican Party. Trump is the character who shepherded all these communities into the Republican column, and so that’s quite interesting. That’s how we got interested in the project.Not Your Tea Party TypesAaron: You mentioned Nixon and Reagan and so on, and we have seen that Trumpism represents a populist movement. We have seen prior waves of things that look like populism, the most recent probably being the Tea Party movement. As you point out, the three communities that you looked at, they didn’t go Republican. They didn’t vote Tea Party candidates. What was different? Was it something that had happened to them—i.e., economic changes that hurt these communities and they said, “Now, it’s time to vote for a Republican”? Was it something about the community, or was there something that really set Trump apart from past populist candidates or waves?Stephanie Muravchik: Well, I think one piece of it is just how deeply blue these communities were. The Tea Party really emerged out of places that had some significant Republican organization movement identification, and there simply weren’t enough Republicans on the ground to get attention for that in most of the places—Iowa might have been a little different, but certainly in Rhode Island and Kentucky. We had one Democratic local-level party leader in Rhode Island—we were asking him about his relationship with Republicans—and he said: “I don’t know any Republicans in this town. I don’t think there are any.” There just weren’t enough even for the most knowledgeable Democratic leadership to know them. So I think part of it was that it would have been hard to get the attention of the local Democrats.Then the other piece that I think stands out is that there was a lot of libertarian rhetoric out of the Tea Party. There’s some controversy about how top-down that was, how “astroturf” that was, et cetera, but that libertarian rhetoric is really not at all resonant with the Democrats that we talked to. That was not the piece of the populism that appealed to them. I think that’s another piece of the answer. Jon?Jon: Well, I would just simply add—I guess this is really echoing what Stephanie said— you have to keep in mind that these are really one-party towns. The party, locally, for these folks is really the individuals who lead the party: the county-level or town-level elected officials. So these are mayors, city council people, county commissioners, and they’re really the face of the party. The other thing to add is that they really insulated these local communities from national politics in some ways. In a lot of ways, these places were pretty provincial. When they thought about the Democratic Party, they didn’t think about national leaders for the most part. They thought about people in their own community, and so Trump really shook these communities. It was a shock to them and really got them thinking about national politics and questions and controversies. It really took someone like a Trump to do that. The Tea Party was something that just didn't—it was a movement that was pretty remote from a lot of these places.Boss Politics and Honor CultureAaron: One of the really interesting parts of this book is when you’re talking about how politics worked or works in these small towns, and I’m reading it sitting inside the Beltway, having that as my frame of reference for politics. I’ve mostly lived in big cities and so on, where national politics is about—during the Trump years, he’s pushing against the guardrails, if not leaping right over them.We have our norms and institutions, and that’s the way that we tend to talk about these things. It was fascinating, the stories that the two of you tell about how different politics is in these small communities. Can you talk a bit about that? That also, you say, plays into a part of Trump's appeal.Jon: Yes, sure. One of the things that really struck us, Aaron, is that in these communities, politics is much more Trumpian in all kinds of ways. It was Trumpian before Trump, right? The local public officials reminded us of Trump in various ways. They were thin-skinned. They were brazen. They were tough. They were macho. They were the local daddies of their communities. They were there to take care of their flock—that is to say, they weren’t particularly ideological; rather, it was a sort of friends-and-neighbors politics. They were going to do particular favors or provide for particular constituents. It echoed back to a sort of machine politics, which has deep roots in the Democratic Party. Politics in these places weren’t very ideological really. They were much more boss-centered. They were really about providing for and taking care of local constituents. Political leaders were expected to do favors for their constituents. We saw all of this in all kinds of ways. Maybe Steph wants to jump in and give some examples, give some flavor and feel for some of these characters.Stephanie: In all three of the places in this town in Rhode Island, in this city in Iowa, in this county in Eastern Kentucky, there had been a strong-boss politics—perhaps most strong in Kentucky. These little rural counties are often dominated by these people called judges. They’re not judicial figures. They’re county executives essentially. There was a man in the county that I was looking at who had held office almost continually for about 30 years.When I arrived there during the Trump administration, he had been out of office due to the fact that he had been brought up on federal charges in a votes-for-gravel scheme. This was after about some 30 years in office. The county had fallen on hard times. The main way that he was able to show his friendship to voters was by providing loads of gravel to them at county expense. A lot of these people live on little far-flung farms in this rural district. They need to have little roads that connect their farmsteads to the main public arteries.The roads need to be constantly refreshed with gravel, and he was dumping loads of gravel in the months leading up to an election. The Feds came after him, and he pled. He had to deal with them basically so he would be free, but he pledged never again to run for office. The county’s political imagination had been very much shaped by this man’s long reign. He remained a very popular—although controversial—figure in the county when I was there.Jon: There were echoes of this, too, in another town we studied, which is Johnston, Rhode Island. On the surface, you might think it would be a place with a radically different politics than Appalachia, right? It’s in New England. It’s a suburb of Providence, but in many ways, actually, the politics was really similar. It’s a very Italian-American community, and they still practice old-style machine politics.The mayor there is Joe Polisena. He rules with an iron fist. Again, he’s like everyone’s daddy, right? People go to Joe. They need something done. They need a favor. Sometimes they ask for things he can’t deliver. When we asked Joe about this, he said, “Yes, sometimes they’ll come in, my constituents, and they’ll ask for something off the wall.” Joe would have to tell them, “Gee, I can’t do that. That’s illegal, but I can do something else.”Likewise, people in that community feel like if they don’t support the machine, if they don’t support Joe Polisena and other Democratic candidates, they’ll be basically shut out. They won’t be able to get any goods from the city, because they’ll be punished by the mayor, who can be very vindictive. Again, very different, seemingly, kinds of communities. They’re regionally different. One’s rural, one’s suburban, et cetera, but a very different style of politics. It’s a kind of politics that used to dominate the Democratic Party.We forget about it in college towns and big urban cities because we’ve cleaned up this kind of politics, right? We want a politics that’s more policy-oriented—politics without nepotism, without wheeling and dealing in this sort of favoritism—but it’s a kind of politics that survived in a lot of these Democratic communities. It survived in those places because there are fewer college-educated, good-government types who wanted to clean up this kind of politics and get rid of it. That’s one way in which the politics of these places was distinctive, but they also had a particular political culture, and we could talk about that if you like, Aaron.Aaron: Just briefly before we turn to that: I’m curious, do the people in those towns view this as a kind of politics that needs to be cleaned up but just can’t for various reasons, or do they think this is the right way to do politics, even if it sometimes is a little messy and looks corrupt?Stephanie: Yes, I think there’s definitely a view among some voters—and they’re all men; these men are all somewhat controversial and have their detractors—who don’t like how personalized the politics are. I spoke to one. Mayor Polisena in Johnston, Rhode Island, is very widely popular. He gets very high margins in elections, and lots of people had lots of good things to say about him, but he did have his detractors.I was trying to talk to one of them, and he was quite anxious about talking to me and said, “Well, you know how things are in this town.” Then he paused a beat, and then he said: “Well, you’re not from here. Maybe you don’t.” There was this sense that there were critics, and they would often say: “This is too personalized. There’s too much retribution for disloyalty. This is America. We should be able to express alternate opinions and not be personally penalized by the powers that be in our locality for this.”One colorful example from Elliott County was an executive who was no longer in office because of this federal deal and had one very outspoken opponent in the community. When they would be paving roads, like county roads, the new asphalt would stop at this man’s property line and then start up again at the next property line. Only in front of his farm would there be no paving. That kind of stuff rubbed some people the wrong way for sure.Jon: I would just echo that. I think it was somewhat mixed, but I think there was also a sort of sense in these places that this is just how one does politics. These are the main models of politics. It wasn’t clear to many, I think, what the alternative to this might look like. In many ways, it’s a sort of model that grows up out of their own community. It’s the kind of politics that grows out of a traditional family in some ways. It’s the sense that, “Well, there’s a patriarch who’s the head of the household but also the head of the community.” They should provide and take care of their community. In exchange, they should get the loyalty of their constituents and their supporters.There’s also a sense that their loyalty is the main way that they pay back their benefactors, those who have supported them. Even if they have some misgivings or grumblings, or they think the mayor can be a little too iron-fisted or whatever, there’s also a sense that they should be loyal to that person because they owe them something.Aaron: Given all of that, and given the personal and transactional nature of the politics and the politics as extended family, as you describe it, the initial motivation of this book and the ethnographies that you conducted was that there was something new about Trump or Trumpism, or Trump as a candidate. It attracted what had been historically very, very exclusively blue communities. These were Democratic strongholds.Given all of this, within this context, what does it mean for them to have been Democrat? You said this wasn’t really about policy per se, so were they meaningfully Democratic in the way that we would think about it, from the perspective of looking broadly in American politics? Democrats represent a set of policy preferences and a certain coalition. Do they even fit within that? Or was it more just that this was a label, but they could have had a different one slapped on, and it wouldn’t have been meaningfully distinct?Stephanie: Yes, I think one thing that became very clear was that because of the relationships with these party elites in their local community, what the party meant, meant relationships with these local party leaders. What they understood “Democrat” to mean had been very much reflected or filtered through these local party leaders. A lot of their, I would say, social-cultural ideas were quite conservative.Some of them made a point of saying, “I’m a Democrat and I’m a conservative.” For example, we met a woman in Rhode Island who was from a deeply political family herself and had been a low local-level political leader—so not someone who was out of touch or disengaged at all. She talked about the revelation that Democrats were pro-choice. For her, this was a shock.She had to wake up to this fact because she herself and her family were fierce Democrats. She had been told since she was a child that if the Republicans get into power, we’ll all starve. It was that kind of rhetoric we've heard from a lot of people. But she was also from this deeply Catholic, church-going, mass-going family. She said she would go to mass and see her elected local leaders also taking communion.It never crossed her mind that these people would not be pro-life. On a lot of the social-cultural issues in Elliott County, which was very rural, one big issue had to do, of course, with guns and the Second Amendment. All the Democrats were very pro-Second Amendment in Elliott County. They didn’t feel a sense of cognitive dissonance because their understanding was so local.Jon: And as Stephanie suggested, too, in some ways, they do have a sense that Republicans are the party of the rich. That resonates with what a lot of Democrats might say about the Republican Party and have said for a long time, but it’s a very class-bound, New Deal, Democratic sense of the parties. Indeed, in some of the restaurants in these towns, it’s not uncommon to find pictures of JFK or FDR.They had a sense that those were the patron saints of the party. They did have a sense that they were part of something larger than their own local, particular community. It’s like the culture wars were this thing that was blowing beyond their own local lives, and they didn’t have a sense of where the parties landed on guns or abortion or those kinds of questions. That surprised us. That was interesting.In lots of ways, of course, these people, on a lot of these issues, they’re kind of conservative. They’re pretty pro-Second Amendment. They’re fairly pro-life. Although on economic questions, they’re more moderate or even left-leaning. Ottumwa, Iowa, for example: It’s a place with a meat-packing plant. There’s a strong tradition of unionism there. Basically, it’s as if you froze the Democratic Party in the North in 1960 and took a peek at it; that’s more what these places are like. It almost felt like going back in time a little bit. We got to peer at the old Democratic Party, as it used to be. We were reminded that it didn’t all change overnight—that there are still these vestiges of this old party that have endured partly because they’re isolated and they have this strong localism. The local leads buffer them from some of the big changes that are happening at the national level.Indeed if you talk to local people, one of the major things they’re trying to do is create their own brand, because they know that there’s a big ideological divide between them and the national party. They want to keep the Democratic Party as localized as they can. Trump has made that a lot harder for them in all kinds of ways, because a lot of these folks are starting to become more aware of the national party and the ways in which it’s different from their local party.Localism versus CosmopolitanismAaron: One of the broad theses of your book is that Trump appealed to these communities in part because the very things that those of us in our coastal, rootless, cosmopolitan enclaves were often dramatically, viscerally turned off by about him were the very things that felt the most familiar about him to the voters in these communities. As just discussed, he looked like the politicians that they’re used to. What we saw as wild corruption and nepotism and so on was just business as usual—that’s of course how politicians operate.I want to move to another one that you discuss, which is honor cultures, because Trump for many of us was this famously belligerent but thin-skinned bully who couldn’t back down. Constantly, anytime anyone said anything, he needed to come back at them, even if he looked ridiculous doing it. It seemed very off-putting to all of us. As you point out, this is like a quintessential “honor culture.” What is an honor culture, and why do we see it in communities like this?Stephanie: Well, an honor culture is a way of understanding reputation and conflict that makes it imperative that a person, particularly a man, demonstrate his toughness, his willingness to meet any insult—or certainly an assault—but even just an insult with a kind of fierceness and a willingness to use violence to avenge his reputation, to reestablish his reputation.Men in all these communities have all kinds of personalities, just like in any other community, but they understand that they’re expected to do this. If they don’t, they risk really losing status in their communities, and they also risk inviting further insult and even violence. I think it was pervasive in all three communities. I think some of the most colorful examples probably come from Ottumwa, from Iowa. Jon: Well, there’s a lot of examples. I would just say by way of defining honor culture that on the one hand, it’s unfamiliar to a lot of folks who live in highly educated bubbles like college towns and blue urban centers, but it’s the default culture in a way, right? It exists around the world. It still exists in lots of places in the United States. It’s a much more common mode of conflict resolution than we often imagine.The play Hamilton reminds us that it used to exist in our national political culture, because, after all, Hamilton died in a duel defending his honor. But that play misleads us, too, because it suggests that this honor culture is some ancient, barbaric, strange cultural thing that existed in the past and that we’ve done away with it. In fact, as Steph said, it existed in all these communities.I guess we should give some examples. I guess before I get to Iowa, I would start with Rhode Island. The mayor, Polisena, very much practiced this honor culture. We really first saw this in action during a town council meeting, because every month or so, Joe Polisena holds court and various citizens come. They have various complaints and they want to give the mayor a hard time.Mayor Polisena doesn’t do what politicians might do in, say, a college town when they hear a complaint. When people come to complain to Polisena, he gives them hell. He starts calling them names, and it doesn’t matter who they are. In fact, this one old woman used to consistently go and complain to him, and he would just let her have it. Polisena would say, “You’re a malcontent.”Later, as the meeting spilled out into the parking lot, he even audibly called her a douchebag. He doesn’t mince words, and we asked him about this. We said, “Joe, what are you doing? Why are you so rough with these constituents? Why can’t you do what Michelle Obama suggests? She said, ‘When they go low, we go high.’ Why can’t you take the high road?” His response was very telling. He said, “No, I can’t do that. If I do that, they’re just going to roll over me. I’m just going to show my weakness. They’re going to take advantage of me.” He said, “Look, I have to be a street fighter when it comes to politics. I have to be tough, because that’s the only thing that people understand, is strength.” We saw this again, as Steph suggested, in Ottumwa. There, a fight nearly broke out at a local Democratic county meeting. This is back in 2016 during the primaries. The county commissioner was a guy named Jerry Parker. He supported Hillary Clinton. There was a guy named Alex Stroda, who was on the other side. They were fighting over who to endorse. It nearly came to blows. There was a belly bump, but not an actual fight. Again, those were two guys who couldn’t just talk it out. There was a sense that an insult had to be forcefully confronted. That was normal in these places and that’s also how Trump operates, right?For Trump, you’re either a strong person or you’re a weak person, and that’s how he divides the world. Nationally speaking, some of the candidates that gravitated toward Trump early also shared some of that honor culture. You think about guys like Rudy Giuliani or Chris Christie. They too have some of that in them. That’s a flavor for this culture. To sum up, I guess the final thing I would say is that Trump—I think you said this well, Aaron—but Trump to us, to people in our community, seems like he’s pathologically thin-skinned. And maybe he is, right? I’m sure Trump has all kinds of personality disorders, but that’s not how it’s necessarily read in the communities we studied. To them, his behavior is totally normal. Of course you punch back. Of course you don’t let things roll off your back. That’s not how politicians behave in their communities. He doesn’t seem weird even if he does have all kinds of personality disorders, which I’m sure he does. He doesn’t read quite that way in these places.Aaron: You’re conducting these interviews after Trump has been in office for a bit, so they’ve gotten to see him not just with the bluster of a candidate, but actually as the leader of the free world. Was there a sense of the disconnect between how they perceive him and how he is perceived elsewhere? For example, you quote a handful of people about this. One guy, and I’ll just read the quote, he says, “I think other countries are afraid of him, which I think is a good thing. I hate to say it, but with Bush and Obama, they were pushovers. With Trump, he’s not a pushover. You’re going to have to deal with him. There’s no playing games with him.” This is really striking because it became very clear in Trump’s presidency that other world leaders were just constantly playing games with him. They saw his thin skin, his reactivity, his susceptibility to flattery, and they just manipulated the hell out of him. They were maybe afraid of him in the sense that he was a loose cannon, but they weren’t afraid of him as a tough guy that they had to take seriously. Were the communities aware of that disconnect, of how he was perceived on a world stage?Stephanie: No, I think that the idea of a leader that might speak quietly and carry a big stick just doesn’t make a lot of sense to them. In their own sphere of understanding, the way that you make people understand that you will not be messed with is through this thin-skinned response. It’s this kind of machismo. I think that that was how they understood. I was at a church service in Kentucky and the minister there was trying to get the churchgoers to be more assertive in their faith.He said, “Growing up, my big brother always taught me”—basically, he meant in the context of working at a job site like a construction site—“don't back up. Never back up.” That was seen as a deep truth that had application in all realms of life. They heard Trump making those sounds. It’s a pretty policy-wonkish person who could then read and trace actually what the consequences might have been, which you were just alluding to. Jon: I think it’s important to bear in mind that what’s happening here is a kind of identity politics. When they see a candidate like Trump who behaves in ways that are familiar to them, in ways that they might behave, in ways that their leaders might behave, it signals to them that this candidate is one of them. That’s how most voters behave, right? They don’t think very systematically, for the most part, about politics or ideology. Really, they’re interested in candidates and the extent to which they feel some sort of a social proximity to them. The closer they feel to them, the more they feel like they can trust them. I think the people we talked to just have a sense that Trump, because he seems familiar, because he seems trustworthy, will do the right thing on the international stage in these contexts that are removed from their knowledge or expertise. In that way, they’re really different from the wonky people one might meet in Washington, D.C., who are pulling their hair out because Trump is getting rolled by China and Putin, et cetera.Class, Not RaceAaron: One of the other things that is characteristic of Trumpism—and it was certainly present throughout Trump’s campaign—was nationalism, and then what often looked like racist dog whistles, if not just quite audible whistles. What has seemed to be characteristic is that Trumpism and Trump’s supporters are intensely nationalistic and often have—let’s call them racially charged views. What you found pushes back on that, at least in some ways, and you argued that it has more to do with the sense of place. Can you talk about how sense of place plays out and what that says about nationalism as a Trumpist phenomenon?Stephanie: All three of these were places we chose precisely because they represented a larger group of counties mostly that had voted twice for Obama and then flipped. We were interested in part because that seemed to be complicating what seemed like a clear-cut story of the kind of bigoted appeal, the appeal of bigotry that the Trump campaign represented. Then spending time there, what really stuck out in all three of the places was the localism and we've talked about some facets of that.These were all places where the people who lived there felt deeply, deeply connected to their hometowns and even so much that in the Johnston Rhode Island community that we were in, they had long had a phrase that was Johnston First—long before Trump was on the political landscape, that there was a sense of belonging to each other and needing to help each other and work for the community. This sometimes then resonated out to a nationalistic commitment. For example, in Ottumwa, Iowa where there were these strong unions, where there had been the car industry, it was difficult to buy a non-American made car in Ottumwa.They linked Ottumwa to the nation in a sense. In all of these places, there was that intense localism. For example, I was asking some women in Elliott County, Kentucky early on. One of them mentioned that they had read Hillbilly Elegy by J.D. Vance and there was some other women at the conversation that I was having and the other women hadn't heard of the book, but they said, "Oh, was he from Elliot?" Then the response was, "No, because he's actually from another county that's an hour or two away, also part of Eastern Appalachia." Fairly indistinguishable from my eyes, but when they were told, "No, not from Elliot county, from this other county," they all laughed like, "Oh, okay, well that's a different county, we don't know about that county." Even the county boundaries of this tiny rural county really mattered to the civic imagination of the residents there.Jon: The other thing I'd say along these same lines is these are all places that are struggling to varying degrees and have been for quite some time. When Trump came around and said he was going to Make America Great Again, what they heard is not so much that he was going to make the nation writ large great again in some general way, what they heard rather is that he was going to make Ottumwa Great Again and Elliot Great Again and Johnston Great Again. That very nationalistic rhetoric, they heard in this very localized way. The fate of those communities matter to them partly because their social identities are so connected to those places.In these communities is where they're really socially known, where they really have reputations, where all their kin are, where all their kin are buried, and so to leave those places because they can't find the jobs or that they might need, for example, is a social death. Here it's a really a class-based difference. If Steph and I get offered a job at, say, Harvard and we go, our social reputation actually enhances because the nature of our communities is really different. It's not neighborhood-based, it's not especially place-based. Our communities are much more based in our professions. We're having this conversation with you across thousands of miles and that's the nature of our community.We don't know our neighbors all that well and it's certainly not the center, it's not really where our social identities are fundamentally based. The fate of these communities matters in a existential way to them in a way that I think it's sometimes hard for those of us who are part of the professional class to notice and to see. The other thing I'd say about race is, as we mentioned, these are places that voted for Obama twice. In that way, they're also different from places that were touched by the Tea Party. As soon as Obama's elected, you get the tea party, and I'm sure some of that was racially driven. He's our first black president but notably, it wasn't these communities. Obama really didn't create some massive counter mobilization in these places. These are places that voted for him twice, Obama was their president for eight years. Some of these places did grow disenchanted with him in the second term, and particularly in Elliot county where the policies of the Biden administration was particularly hard on the coal industry there. But for the most place, these weren't places that had some allergy to Obama. These were places that, in fact, voted for him and supported him.In general, I think we would say that to those studying Trump is that I think it is true on the one hand that these folks, they do think of Trump as a patron of the white working class in some ways. I think that's true. I do think, especially today, things have become more racialized. I'm sure if we went back into these communities in the wake of BLM and everything else, the racial politics has changed. Perhaps they think of themselves more fundamentally as white citizens and that's probably likely. But when we arrived there, I guess we were struck by the fact that they didn't particularly think in those terms and their social identities were much more class-based, they were much more place-based. I think we have to keep in mind that however much race plays a role, their politics aren't reducible to race either, that they have other social identities. I think that's hopeful in some ways.Stephanie: Just to put a point on the comment with one example that comes to mind in terms of Elliott County. Elliott county, Kentucky, is a particularly white area. There's very few people that are non-white.Jon: In fact, if I could just add, I think it's the whitest county that voted for Obama, which makes it interesting.Stephanie: All the political conflict there that sometimes can be racially charged in other places all happens within whites. For instance, when there's lots of grumbling about welfare and they're all looking at their white neighbors who are ethnically, religiously identical, racially identical to them. One thing I discovered among some of the older, this is not common among the younger, but the older people in Elliott County will sometimes complain about foreigners. When they talk about foreigners, they mean people from Ohio who are coming across the border or other counties, other white people.When there's lots of talk about invidious distinctions between us and them or between “othering” someone in the jargon of the academy, but in this case, they're “othering” white Ohioans, so the racial divisions aren't always the most important divisions to them.Jon: Just a quick footnote to that. It should remind us that, in some ways, their identities are much more provincial than whiteness. White America, that's a pretty big group of people. For the most part, it didn't seem like that was a community they felt especially close to. As Steph said, they feel like they're white neighbors and a neighboring county are, in some ways, outsiders and not part of their community.Aaron: The main issue of Trump's campaign, the thing that he ran on and drove home from early on his presidency was anti-immigration. That was his hobby horse. Is it then the case that for these communities, an anti-immigration view is less about race, ethnicity, nationality, immigrants with their weird languages and weird foods and more that if your community is intensely socially interconnected in a way that makes it look more like an extended family, then the immigrants look like the person who marries into that family and has a hard time fitting in because they didn't grow up in it, then they physically look different from us?Jon: Yes, you could see this in, I think, most notably actually in Ottumwa, Iowa, which of the three communities we studied has the highest level of immigration and they've come there really to work the meat packing plant. I do think there's something to what you're saying. There's a sense that these folks are outsiders who don't quite share our norms, and therefore, it's harder to have the tightly knit homogeneous community. We know from research on social capital that ethnic diversity, at least in the short and median term, undermines community and feelings of trust and belonging, and so diversity is a challenge to community.If your community is fundamentally neighborhood-based, then immigration can be a cost to those communities. Again, it's really quite a contrast from our college town. Here, we benefit from immigration on all kinds of ways. We pay immigrants in California, some in California, they cut our lawns, they clean our houses, they care for our children, they allow us to neglect our neighborhoods and tend to the communities that we care about, which is really our broader, professional, more diffuse, virtual kinds of communities. But in places like Ottumwa, those communities, again, are much more neighborhood-based.There is signs though that does sort of change over time as immigrants become part of the community. This is why I think it has more to do with culture than race. One Ottumwan, for example, told us about one of his neighbors, really about the Latinos in the community. Generally, he said, well, they're not even Mexican anymore because they don't speak Spanish. It was an interesting way of saying this was fundamentally about race. They may look a little different, but what matters is that they've socially and culturally integrated into the community.Policy Is Not the AnswerAaron: Looking forward then for those of us who are deeply worried about what Trumpism represents on the national stage, look back at the four years that he was in office and the real damage it did to American institutions and so on, and are worried about the continuing prevalence of this fundamentally illiberal views in the American electorate, what lessons should we draw from this? These people are speaking to genuine interests in cultural needs and affiliations. The book is very good at pointing out how much those of us in the cosmopolitan cities don't understand the way that class really works.There's a very nice line in it where you mention how much in colleges the future generations of progressive leaders are taught lots of courses in gender and race, but very little, if anything at all, in class and how important class is to this conversation. What lesson should we draw from what you've learned in these communities as far as understanding and preventing some of this from turning into the really dangerous illliberalism that we all fear?Jon: I think it is certainly heading that way. When we were in these communities at the time, it was still relatively early in their romance with Donald Trump, so they were not talking a lot of crazy conspiracy theory. Now we're really at a different place and I think partly what it highlights is the dangers of identity politics in some ways. There's a sort of cultishness that has really grown around Trump. Again, we were there and saw the beginnings of that, but we were just, in fact, at a rally in Wyoming, and Trump was there to officially nominate Harriet Hageman who's taking on Liz Chaney. It was everyone was in their Trump gear. Everyone had Trump T-shirts, lots of folks had Trump flags.If you've been to an NFL game, it had that feel to it like everyone's on the same team rooting together. Maybe that would be okay if Trump was less reckless. I think in many ways, we're in this moment because of Trump's bad character. Not so much that he appealed to people's place-based or class-based identities and mobilized this group of folks, but the power of that social connection has been so badly abused by him and so recklessly done, exploited. In a way, I think there'll be more responsible people. I hope there'll be more responsible people who will follow some of his example and leave other parts of it behind.I think there's responsible ways to appeal to these folks. I think it's important to remember, there's a decent part of this world. There's a decent morality there. Not all of it exports well up to the national level. I think honor culture, for example, for reasons we can explain, we think that maybe it's not great anywhere, but it works much better locally, and when it's exported up to the national level, it doesn't play out well. There are folks who I think are trying to take some of the Trump's playbook. One good example is this candidate for governor in Pennsylvania, Fetterman, who's a Democrat, and very Trumpy in all kinds of ways.If you haven't bothered to look, on one of his forearms, he has a huge tattoo of a ZIP code of his hometown. Talk about appealing to place-based identities. This guy's really figured it out. On his other arm, he has the names of all those who died in his community while he was mayor. Very personal concern about his own hometown and community. Look, I don't know what kind of governor he would be if he makes it that far, but it strikes me that's, particularly for Democrats or even really Republicans, who are thinking about how do you mobilize some of these social identities in a way that's less reckless than Trump, I think it can be done.Again, I think it'd be done responsibly and that's partly because there's something admirable and something to like about the localism of these folks.Stephanie: Yes, I think a lot of the things that we found that we highlight in our book, the moral vision behind them has to be understood. Even something like the boss nature of politics, which is often something that's considered very sleazy in the kind of communities that John and I have lived really has a lot to do with this ethic of friendship and loyalty. It's a way that voters understand friendship and loyalty more than any policy-minded way of assessing candidates. I had one woman tell me, actually, a few people say things like this, but one woman comes to mind in Kentucky who was a very disengaged voter and worked a minimum wage, a pretty crappy job.She was one of the defenders of this disgraced county executive and she said: "At least when David was in office, you could get a load of gravel when you needed one." It was her sense of this was a true mark of friendship. I think that certainly the boss style politics, which has to do with personal loyalty, which, of course, resonates very large with the unusually intense following that Trump has at the national level, the localism, again, is about community and loyalty. I think candidates that can speak that cultural jargon can signal that it's more important to signal that than it is to have policies. The policies aren't the draw I guess. I saw some Trump voters who said to me Trump Democrats in Kentucky who said, "Oh, we have great internet. We got that under the Obama administration," but there was no sense that they gave credit to the Obama administration for this policy that clearly helped them. They giggled about. Or the same with Obamacare. We saw people in Rhode Island say, "Oh, well, yes, I am dependent on Obamacare," but didn't give much credit. I think what they want is a feeling of being represented by someone they can identify with and trust and they're much more attuned to social-cultural clues, maybe all of us are, when picking candidates. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit theunpopulist.substack.com

00:44 - Pandemic Life * Politics * Healthcare * Society * Work 13:58 - Jay, Happiness, and Fulfillment * Personal Development and Self-Discovery * Brené Brown (https://brenebrown.com/) * Glennon Doyle (https://momastery.com/) * Elizabeth Gilbert (https://www.elizabethgilbert.com/) * Nihilism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism) * Manifestation * Gratitude & Daily Journaling * Morning Pages (https://juliacameronlive.com/basic-tools/morning-pages/) * EarlyWords (https://earlywords.io) 29:09 - Witchcraft & Magic * Intention and Ritual * Terry Pratchett (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett) * Franz Anton Mesmer (https://www.britannica.com/biography/Franz-Anton-Mesmer) * The Placebo Effect (https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-placebo-effect) * Zenify Stress Relief Drink (https://zenifydrinks.com/) * Effort and Intention Reflections: Mandy: Everyone should journal. Reflect on the past and bring it to the present. Damien: Bringing magic into non-magical environments. Aaron: Ritual, intention, reflection, alignment. This episode was brought to you by @therubyrep (https://twitter.com/therubyrep) of DevReps, LLC (http://www.devreps.com/). To pledge your support and to join our awesome Slack community, visit patreon.com/greaterthancode (https://www.patreon.com/greaterthancode) To make a one-time donation so that we can continue to bring you more content and transcripts like this, please do so at paypal.me/devreps (https://www.paypal.me/devreps). You will also get an invitation to our Slack community this way as well. Transcript: DAMIEN: Welcome to Episode 277 of Greater Than Code. I am Damien Burke and I'm joined with Aaron Aldrich. AARON: Hi, I am Aaron and I am here with Mandy. MANDY: Hello, everybody. I'm Mandy Moore and today, it's just the three of us! So if you came expecting more than that, I'm sorry. [laughter] We're what you get today, but hopefully, we can have a great conversation and we were thinking that we would talk about all the things. I'm doing big hand gestures right now because there's been so many things happening since 2020 that are still happening and how our perspectives have changed. For one, I, myself, can tell you I have grown so much as a person in 2 years. And I'm curious to hear how the two of you have been living your lives since the pandemic. DAMIEN: [chuckles] Where to begin. AARON: I know. It's such a good topic because I feel like everyone's had so much to change, but at the same time, it's like, okay, so 2 million years ago at the beginning of this pandemic. I'm now my third place, third job since the beginning of the pandemic as well and wow, I came out as non-binary in the middle of the pandemic [laughs]. So that was a whole thing, too. I think the question I asked earlier is how much have you radicalized your politics over the course of the past 2 years? [laughs] DAMIEN: Yeah, yeah. That's been bouncing around in my head since you said it off mic. Every time I hear the word pandemic now, I think about, “Oh man,” I hesitate on how far to go into this. [laughs] Because I look at the techno-anarchist crypto bros and I can I say that disparagingly and I will say that disparagingly because I was like them. [laughs] I filled out a survey today and they asked like, “How do you rate yourself as on a conservative and liberal scale?” I'm like, “Well, I think I'm super conservative.” And I still do and every time I align with any political policy, it's always an alignment with people who call themselves socialists and leftists and why is that? [laughs] Hmm. [laughter] But anyway, that was the part I was trying not to go back into. [laughs] One of the big realizations in living in a pandemic is that healthcare is not an exclusive good. MANDY: What? [laughter] DAMIEN: That is to say that I cannot, as an individual, take care of my own health outside of the health of the community and society I live in. Didn't know that. In my defense, I hadn't thought about it, [laughs] but that was an amazing realization. AARON: No, I think that was a big thing. I think so much of the pandemic exposed the way our systems are all interconnected. Exposed the societal things. Like so much we rely on is part of the society that we've built and when things don't work, it's like, well, now what? I don't have any mechanism to do anything on my own. What do we do? DAMIEN: Yeah. It's so fundamental in humanity that we are in society. We are in community. We only survive as a group. That's a fundamental aspect of the species and as much as we would like to stake our own claim and move out to a homestead and depend on no one other than ourselves, that is not a viable option for human beings. AARON: Right, yeah. Even out here in rural Vermont with animals and things, we're still pretty dependent on all of the services that are [chuckles] provided around. I'm still on municipal electric service and everything else. There's still dependence and we still rely on our neighbors and everyone else to keep us sane in other ways. DAMIEN: Yeah, and I feel like people in rural areas—and correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't lived in a rural area in maybe ever—have a better understanding of their independence. You know your neighbors because you need to depend on them. In the city—I live in Los Angeles—we depend on faceless institutions and systems. AARON: Yeah. DAMIEN: And so, we can easily be blind to them. AARON: Yeah. I think it mixes in other ways. I get to travel a bit for work and visit cities, and then I end up coming back out into the rural America to live. So I enjoy seeing both of it because in what I've seen in city spaces is so much has to be formalized because it's such a big deal. There are so many people involved in the system. We need a formal system with someone in charge to run it so that the average everyday person doesn't have to figure out how do I move trash from inside the city outside the city. [laughter] We can make that a group of people's job to deal with. Here, it's much more like, “Well, you can pay this service to do it, or that's where the dump is so can just take care of it yourself if you want.” “Well, this farm will take your food scraps for you so you can just bring this stuff over there if you want.” It's just very funny. It just pops up in these individual pockets and things that need group answers are sometimes like pushed to the town. You get small town drama because like everyone gets to know about what's happening with the road and have an opinion on the town budget as opposed to like, I don't know, isn't that why we hire a whole department to deal with this? [laughs] DAMIEN: Yeah, but small town drama is way better than big town drama. The fact that half of LA's budget goes to policing is a secret. People don't know that. AARON: Yeah. DAMIEN: Between the LA Police Department and LA Sheriff's Department, they have a larger budget than the military of Ukraine. That's the sort of thing that wouldn't happen – [overtalk] AARON: Don't look at the NYPD budget then. DAMIEN: Which is bigger still, yeah. [laughter] That's not the sort thing that would happen in a small town where everybody's involved and in that business. AARON: Yeah. It happens in other weird ways, but it's interesting. This is stuff that I don't know how has, if it's changed during pandemic times. Although, I guess I've started to pay attention more to local politics and trying to be like, “Oh, this is where real people affecting decisions get made every day are at the municipal levels, the city level.” These are things that if we pass a policy to take care of unhoused, or to change police budget, this affects people right now. It's not like, “Oh, wow, that takes time to go into effect and set up a department to eventually go do things.” It's like, “No, we're going to go change something materially.” It's hard to compare the two because the town I'm in rents a police officer part-time from the next [laughs] municipality over. So the comparison to doesn't really work. [laughter] DAMIEN: Everybody knows exactly how much that costs, too. AARON: We do. I just had to vote on it a couple Tuesdays ago. [laughter] DAMIEN: So then I think back to how that has impacted – I'm always trying to bring this podcast more into tech because I feel guilty about that. [laughs] About just wandering off into other things. But I think about how that impacts how I work in the organizations I work in. Hmm. I recognize I'm learning more about myself and how much I can love just sitting down with an editor and churn out awesome code, awesome features, and awesome products. That brings me so much joy and I don't want to do anything else. And what we do has impact and so, it's so beneficial to be aware of the organization I'm in what it's doing, what the product is doing, how that's impacting people. Sometimes, that involves a lot of management—I do a lot of product management with my main client now. But also, in other places, you would look at, “Well, okay, I don't need to manage the client's finances”. Not because that's not as important, it's because other people are doing it and I trust how they're doing it. That's something I haven't had elsewhere. The advantage of being with a very small organization is that I have these personal relationships and this personal trust that I couldn't get at one of the vampire companies. What'd they call them? FAANG? AARON: Yeah, FAANG. We've been talking about this because FAANG, but Facebook and Google changed their name. So now, is it just MAAN? DAMIEN: Yeah. AARON: I mean Meta, Alphabet, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, right? DAMIEN: I'm all for the right of individuals to choose what they're called; I don't know if I'm willing to extend that to Facebook and Google. AARON: [laughs] Yeah. DAMIEN: Remember, was it Altria? AARON: Oh, Philip Morris. DAMIEN: Philip Morris, right? AARON: Yeah. DAMIEN: They were just like, “Oh, everything we've been doing is so horrible and harming to society for the past several decades, we'll just change our names and people will forget about it.” AARON: That was Philip Morris. Altria didn't do any of that. DAMIEN: Yeah. Altria didn't do any of that. [chuckles] Yeah, I remember that. AARON: Yeah. I'm curious because I think it's changed for me a bit over this time, too. But I'm curious for folks that have had a sensitivity change to the types of company, not necessarily types of companies, but like, I'm more sensitive to who I'm working for. I think my list of no, I won't work for the X company [chuckles] has probably grown throughout the pandemic and I'm definitely much more critical. Part of it's probably because as in tech we're sort of at an advantage, it is high demand right now and we can be a bit picky about where we work, but I definitely have been [laughs] lately. Much more careful about I'm not just willing to work with anyone. I want someone that's got reasonable values. I interview other companies a lot more and I want to make sure product is not causing harm generally speaking and make sure I get a lot more value alignment out of leadership team and things like that. I don't know if other people have had a similar experience. MANDY: Unfortunately, I haven't had that experience. I'm still working for whoever will give me money. [laughter] But I wish I could do that and I'm currently looking. I mean, I've been trying to break into a full-time DevRel career for I guess, 2 years now and I guess, I'm actively looking. Oh, here we go. If you're hiring, let me know. [laughter] I guess I am. I'm looking for that job that I'm really feeling fulfilled in is right now I'm not feeling that and I think it's because of the pandemic, I've really stopped to think about what I want in my life and how I want to feel. I want to be happy, I want to be passionate about my job, and I want to wake up and not feel scared to open my computer because – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Wow. MANDY: Are they going to tell me they no longer need my service? DAMIEN: Right. MANDY: And it's been demoralizing really, for me recently, especially because I tried to join a developer relations Slack group just a few months ago and they rejected me flat out and they're like, “You do not work in dev full time. You cannot be a part of our group,” and I'm like, “Oh.” So now I'm like, “Hmm, what do I do in tech?” [laughter] I thought I'd been doing DevRel before DevRel was cool. I'm going to humble brag for a minute, but I have single-handedly put this podcast together and put you people together that you didn't even know and you love each other. You get that vibe. I can tell who's going to get – you're going to love this person and you're going to like – [overtalk] DAMIEN: Oh man, you not only put this podcast together, but you are the sustaining force. You are the heart of it. You are the thing where that all the panelists that are connected to. You are one who gets all of the mechanical, everything besides talking in mics. You do everything else and you're maintaining all these relations with these developers. [laughter] MANDY: I never even wanted to be on mic. I just started doing it because everybody was busy and I was like, “I guess I have to step up.” [laughs] DAMIEN: Whatever it takes to get it done, right? MANDY: Well, yeah. I feel like the topics on this show that we talk about are important and they're even important outside of tech that hence, the whole name: Greater Than Code. There are more things out there than our jobs and our work and I just want to be happy. I want to be fulfilled and I want to be passionate about something and so does my dog. AARON: That was a shift for me, too. That was definitely one of the roles I was in during the pandemic and realized my struggle with it so much was it was clashing with that. It wasn't fulfilling for me, it was clashing with my core values, and it was just like, “You know what, I can't do this anymore.” [chuckles] I'm no longer in a place where I have the energy to do a thing I don't like doing, or don't have some care for. There's always something you don't like doing. There's always some crap around every job that like don't like to do or you have to deal with something, but I'm no longer at a place where I can have a whole job that rubs me the wrong way. MANDY: Yeah. It's hard for me. I should feel great about this, but I'm known as the podcast girl. If you have a tech podcast, you should talk to Mandy, but I'm not just a podcast editor! I do so much more than that. I do operation, I do product management, I do writing; there's so much more that encompasses who I am in tech than the podcast girl. I feel like not a lot of people know that and maybe that's my fault because I guess, I haven't really done a good job of putting myself out there to be like, “Hey wait. But I'm –” because for me, it's still a hustle as a single mom. I have to pay the bills. So it's like, I wish I could be more discerning with the jobs that I take and who I work for, but I don't know. I'm just one of those people of the universe. What will be, will be and if it's meant to be, it'll come to me. [laughs] So I don't ever really actively seek and that's probably half of my problem. DAMIEN: Mm. That's funny because I didn't know all those things about you. I pitch you as a podcast producer and again, I live in a LA, I'm involved in the entertainment industry at a slight level, and the word producer there is very, very powerful and very important. A producer is an executive. A producer is person who gets things done, who makes it happen. I'm not entirely sure what a producer does, even though I've done it. MANDY: I'm not even sure what a – [laughs] DAMIEN: Right, because it's never the same thing. MANDY: No. DAMIEN: It's whatever it takes and that skill. AARON: Yeah. DAMIEN: That being able to be know enough about a movie, or theatrical production, or a podcast, to know what it takes, to be able to manage, and sustain and get it done. That's really what it comes down to: get it done. MANDY: That's why it's so hard for me. Everyone's like, “Do you have a resume?” And I'm like, “I don't know what to put on it!” Like, you tell me you need this done, I'll get it done. If I don't know how to do it, I'll figure it out because that's what I've done for 13 years. Like I got hired as Avdi Grimm's virtual assistant because an Indeed.com ad came out and was like, “I need somebody to answer emails for me,” and I'm like, “Don't know why you can't do that yourself, but sure.” [laughter] And then from there, he had a podcast and was like, “Can you edit my podcast?” And I was like, “Sure,” and then I'm Googling what is a podcast. [laughter] I had no clue. So I got here, I think a lot out of luck from being at the right place and talking to the right person at the right time. But I have busted my ass to just learn what people need me to learn and do what people need me to do. I guess, that's maybe what I should just put on the resume. I'll do what you need me to do. I make it happen. DAMIEN: No, no, no. You put on the resume what your next job is going to be doing. MANDY: [laughs] Yeah, so, it's hard when people ask me for my resume. I have like three resumes and I'm like, “This does not, no.” AARON: It's almost more a portfolio at this point, right. I made this thing happen. I made this thing happen. Here's this other thing that I did. Here's another thing I made happen. DAMIEN: Resumes are horrific. They're not good for anybody and the only people who use them are people who need to filter quickly out of large groups and they're not even good for that. I've long aspired to be at a place in my career where I don't need a resume and I might be there. Steve Jobs didn't have a resume. Didn't need a resume. He didn't send his resume to the board to get that job at Apple back. It's ridiculous. MANDY: Well, that's the thing for me. I get most of my work from word to mouth. DAMIEN: Right. MANDY: So until I really lost a big client and I was like, “Oh, I don't have a resume. Don't you know who I am?” [laughter] DAMIEN: But like, they should. [laughter] AARON: Just say the portfolios level. I mean, it's kind of the same thing, right? This is... MANDY: Yeah. AARON: [laughs] Kind of the same thing. It's sort of how my resume is morphed in DevRel proper. It's gone from I still kind of have the resume that's like, “Yeah, I worked into these things internally that might not surface otherwise, but also, here's my speaking portfolio and all the things that I have done over the past 3 years. [laughs] You might know me from all of this stuff instead of what's on this resume.” [laughter] MANDY: Yeah. Of course, once I was getting comfortable enough to want to speak, that's when the whole world shut down. DAMIEN: Yeah. MANDY: So I have no videos of myself speaking anywhere whatsoever. DAMIEN: Well, I think there might be a few podcasts that you appear on. MANDY: There's a few episodes as of late that I have ventured to be on out of keeping the show alive. DAMIEN: And every episode of this podcast, and I think several others, are shits near portfolio, right? [laughter] MANDY: Then I'd have a really wrong resume. [laughs] AARON: We'll figure it out. DAMIEN: Yeah. AARON: You just need the highlights. MANDY: But I don't know, a lot of other things have changed for me over the course of the past 2 years. Just in my personal life, I've gotten sober and that was a really hard thing to do during a pandemic. AARON: Yeah. MANDY: When everybody else was out hoarding toilet paper, I was like, “Oh my God, I need beer,” [laughs] and actually, I did. While everybody was stocking up on those other necessities, I was buying cases of beer and putting them in my garage because I was like, “Oh great, the world's ending and I guess, if that's going to happen, I might as well be drunk.” And then – [overtalk] AARON: I mean, it's a fair argument in your defense. MANDY: But then it became a bad problem because when you're home all day and I was home, I worked from home before this. But everything is so damn depressing and you keep the news on the television and next thing you know, it's lunch time and cracking a beer and I'm like, “Whoa, this is… [laughs] where did this come from?” So no, I got sober and I don't drink anymore and honestly, I have never felt better. I've also become a runner. I got a treadmill and I run a 4, or 5 miles a day and I've lost a good amount of weight, probably a lot from alcohol bloat. DAMIEN: [chuckles] Yeah. MANDY: But it's more for me. It's not even about losing a weight because I don't even own a scale because it's more about how I feel. DAMIEN: Yeah. MANDY: It's what is about how I feel. So when I went to the doctor's office for my yearly checkup on Monday and I got on the scale because they make you, I said, “Whoa,” [laughs] because I didn't even know. For me, it's about how I feel and I think that that's really, what's brought a lot of things into perspective for me is that at our time here on earth is fine. I want to be here for my daughter especially. She's 13 and I want to be healthy for her. I want to be here for my friends. I ask myself why I'm still in York, Pennsylvania and I haven't left because I do have people around here that I care about. DAMIEN: Yeah. MANDY: And other than that, I could take it, or leave it. But because the people who I love are here, that's why I haven't left. DAMIEN: Yeah. MANDY: So that's another thing, the things like the pandemic has just really set me into a lot of personal development work and self-discovery. I journal every day. I read self-help books, which is so weird to me because I was one of those people that were like, “Who are those people that read self-help books?” and now I'm one of them. [chuckles] I want to be Brené Brown and Glennon Doyle's best friend. [laughter] Those two women are my people. Elizabeth Gilbert. I can give you so many names of people and great authors that just inspire the hell out of me and 2 years ago, I was not that at all. AARON: Yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for getting at our time on earth is finite and so, in refocusing on what matters to us. Another way I had a friend put it to me, it's like optimistic nihilism. Look, at the end of the day, we're all going to be dead and none of this matters. So you might as well do what makes you happy, right? [laughs] You might as well do the things that are fulfilling and meaningful and try to make other people have a good time, too. You might as well. DAMIEN: I always thought it was ridiculous that nihilism had such a negative connotation. It was like, “No. Okay. I can believe that and be –” [overtalk] AARON: No pressure. At the end of the day, we're all going to die so, no pressure. Do what do what you need to do. Doesn't matter if you succeed, or fail. MANDY: That's like, I'm one of those people that would rather spend their money on experiences. AARON: Yeah. MANDY: Because I don't care how much money I die with. [laughter] I'd rather use it now and take my kid Disney world, which I did 3 years ago. DAMIEN: Nice. MANDY: And enjoy those experiences rather than have a bank account full of dollars that I can't use. DAMIEN: High score. MANDY: Yeah, high score. DAMIEN: Shout out to thriving in hand wavy. I feel embarrassed about this and I don't talk about it much because so many people are suffering. People I love are suffering. People I work with and deal with on a daily basis are suffering, and bad things are happening. This is the best year of my life. This is better than last year and last year was better than the year before. I just keep getting better and my life just keeps getting more awesome. I don't know if I was going anywhere with that, but solidarity with Mandy, I guess. You bought a treadmill. I bought a rower. MANDY: I feel like honestly, the universe gives back what you put out and I guess, I've become real – a lot of people are like, “You're like, woo-woo witchy now,” and I'm like, “Aha, yeah.” I kind of like that. So I feel like if you manifest things, you can make that happen and yes, there's things happening. Yes, yes, there are so many bad things happening, but sometimes out of self-preservation, you just have to tune all of that out and just be in your immediate dwell. For me, sometimes I'll go a week without watching news and I feel guilty about that a lot, but it's just like, you know what, if something's going to happen, it's going to happen. AARON: I think the best way someone put that to me was anxiety is not activism. MANDY: Yeah. DAMIEN: Yeah. AARON: Right, so just sitting around making yourself anxious and stressed out about everything and whatever emotion you have, making yourself feel bad doesn't improve the situation, it just also makes you feel bad. So it's okay to take a step back and do the self-care that you need to do because just feeling bad isn't fixing the problem either. So step back, find what you can do. Maybe there's stuff you can do here, in your immediate space that you can take action on. MANDY: Exactly. And also, for drinking other people's problems away, – [overtalk] [laughter] AARON: You can't drink other people's – disassociating from other people's problems isn't effective. [laughter] MANDY: No. Let me tell you, I tried. [laughter] DAMIEN: That's such a great statement. Anxiety is not activism, but also the opposite is true. Joy is activism, rest is activism, thriving in a world that doesn't want you to thrive is an act of resistance and activism. Shout out, living a good life. AARON: That's been a good conversation. I think that's easy to forget and I've seen it come up a couple times over the past couple years of what they have been of taking those moments for joy are really important. They can be radical in and of themselves. MANDY: Keep a gratitude journal. There are so many great apps that every day before I go to sleep, I just write one sentence and it gives you an option even to have a picture. So you can snap a picture. Even if it's just like this candle, this candle is burning right here and it smells so good and it's making me happy today. So I'm grateful for the candle. DAMIEN: Yeah, I'm up to approximately 2 years of daily journaling. A buddy of mine got together. We built a daily journaling app based on Morning Pages from The Artist's Way. It's called Early Words. Shout out earlywords.io if you want to join and journal with me. But every day, 750 words. I do it first thing in the morning most days. Stream of consciousness. It has absolutely changed my life. It makes me feel good. It made me a better writer. Not because the writing is good, but because it's taught me to turn off the editor. Writing does have to be good for me to write it. MANDY: Yeah. Big proponent of journaling. AARON: I believe in it. I just don't remember to do it. But that's my own problem. [laughter] DAMIEN: Can we go back? Can we talk about witchcraft? AARON: All right, I'm in. DAMIEN: A friend of mine asked me oh my God, maybe it was a year ago. Maybe it was several months ago. I have no idea. She asked me like, “Do you actually believe in witchcraft? Those magic woo-woo stuff?” It's like, “Well, let me tell you something. Every morning when I wake up in the morning, I make a potion with dried leaves that energizes me. At night, I make a different potion with dried flowers that calm me down and helps me sleep. My literal job is making sand think. Do I believe in witchcraft? I mean, yeah.” [chuckles] MANDY: I mean, it's a full moon today so I have a whole jug of water out charging. I do. I literally have a jug of water on my deck charging for full moon water energy and I use it like, I'll put a little bit in my bath water. I'll put it a little bit of it – I'll cook with it. When I boil some water, put it in there. Does it help? I don't know, but it makes me feel better! DAMIEN: Okay. Wait. It makes you feel better? AARON: Sounds like it's helping. DAMIEN: Doesn't that means it helps? MANDY: Yeah. It does. AARON: Yeah. I think that's a good point. I believe in the power of intention and ritual. There's a reason why humans developed rituals over time and sometimes, it's just for us to feel the right thing. But like, feelings are important? DAMIEN: [laughs] But like, feelings are important. AARON: I don't want to say something controversial on the Greater Than Code podcast such as feelings are important. But they are. Sometimes, while you go through a certain step and it centers you, or you go through a certain set of steps and it makes you feel better, or it helps you process the anxiety you're feeling, or it's like, nope, I need to get centered in my five senses again so I can come back into my body and be here instead of going off on an anxiety spiral. MANDY: Absolutely. AARON: What is witchcraft? I actually love this from Terry Pratchett, one of my all-time favorite authors who does the Discworld series of novels, as a very specific approach to witchcraft, which is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, magic and whatever. But their daily thing is checking on all the people of the village and doing all the work that nobody wants to do. So it's like, how are the elderly doing? Do they need help with anything? Making sure and so takes their bath, making sure this person's animals are taken care of, making sure this sort of thing. Sometimes, it's about appearances and going through the ritual to make sure the community is coming along. Sitting with the dead, all that kind of stuff. And that's witchcraft, that's the bread and butter of witchcraft is knowing the right herbs and poultices to put together, being the heart and soul of the community and being able to get people and helping each other, and move the resources around as needed and that sort of thing. So yeah, I believe in that. [laughs] DAMIEN: Yeah. There was there's a great story and about Anton Mesmer, I learned this shout out to Mary Elizabeth Raines who taught me hypnosis. I learned this when she told me this story when I was doing my hypnosis training about Anton Mesmer, who's considered the [31:10] of hypnotism. He introduced hypnotism to the to the white people. The word mesmerism and magnetic person, magnetic personality, all this comes from Mesmer. He had salons where people would hold onto metal rod that he had “magnetized” and be healed and fall out and screaming have spirit and all that. But Mesmer was very popular and very powerful and the king of France did not like this. The king of France put together a blue-ribbon commission. I don't know if he called it a blue-ribbon commission. Probably not because he spoke French, but put together a commission of scientists to discredit Mesmer. One of these scientists was Ben Franklin, by the way. So they did a double-blind study. They did a proper double-blind test. They had Mesmer come out and magnetize a tree. That was a thing he did. He would magnetize trees, people would come out and hug the trees and then they'd be healed. So they did a study. They had to magnetize the tree and they brought people out who were sick and they said, “Hug that tree. That's magnetized and you'll be healed.” Some of the trees Mesmer had magnetized, some he hadn't and it turns out it didn't matter. People were still healed and so, they all came to conclusion, “All right. See, Mesmer's not doing anything. It's all placebo effect.” Mesmer was run out of town and lived in exile for the rest of his days. Nobody bothered to ask why were the people healed? Everybody knows placebo effect is a real effect. Nobody's like, “How do we make it more effective? Why is it working this way? What do we do it? What do we do with that? How can we use that?” MANDY: Yeah. AARON: No, I think it's a super interesting thought. The placebo effect is a powerful and interesting concept overall. We did ourselves a disservice to not understand it. DAMIEN: Yeah. To dismiss it as if it doesn't exist. Not only does it exist, it's increasing. AARON: Hmm. DAMIEN: Because people are getting more powerful. MANDY: Yeah. I'm drinking this Zenify Stress Relief Drink. [chuckles] And does it work? I don't know, but it's delicious and you know what? It makes me happy. You know why? Because it's not alcohol. [laughter] So it's not having a negative effect on me. I'm not getting drunk and doing stupid things. Is it taking away? My stress? Eh. I mean, but I love it. I love it and it makes me feel good. It's a treat. It's a special drink. I have one a day and it's one of those things that instead of missing my case of White Claw Seltzer. I know, I know, I wasn't even a bougie – well, I wasn't even a good drinker. That's what made it a problem. [laughs] AARON: This is far too affordable. MANDY: I was not a discerning drinker, so. [laughs] No, I have my one bougie drink that I have and it makes me feel good. Does it relieve my stress? I don't know, but I don't care either. DAMIEN: Yeah. If it works, it works. One of the great things about placebos is they don't – well, I was going to say they don't have to be expensive, but sometimes it works better when they're expensive. [laughs] MANDY: Moon water is free. DAMIEN: Moon water is, yeah. But, well, it's not free actually. You had to put an effort and intention. MANDY: True. DAMIEN: And I think if you didn't, it wouldn't be as effective. AARON: Effort and intention go a long way. DAMIEN: [laughs] That's a root of magic, isn't it? MANDY: Why can't I just get paid for effort and intention? [laughs] AARON: I mean, if I put my effort and intention into this money tree. [laughter] I've always thought it would be nice if real world jobs worked like Animal Crossing. Like, “Oh, so I can just go pick some stuff up and then you're just going to give money and then we can just move on? Great.” “Now look, I dug up a bag of money. If I just plant this bag of money, I'll get more money. It's fine.” [laughs] DAMIEN: I'm trying to bridge that gap. That's such a great question like when effort and intention is so well, literally magical, why does it seem to not have the impact we want in nonmagical environments, I'll call them? AARON: Mm. DAMIEN: I asked that question because I want to know what to do about that. I want to bring magic to nonmagical environment, to city council, to retail stores. I almost named an online retail store; I don't want to name it. [laughs] But it's a city council to corporate interactions. And there's no reason you can't. Corporations are people. Governments are people. I think requires dealing with them in individually in ways that we're not used to. AARON: Yeah. It's a good question. You've got to be really thinking about… MANDY: My wheels are turning. AARON: Yeah. I mean, I think part of it is effort and intention are always going to make the most effect for you because most of it is about aligning your thought processes. It's about taking the, I don't know, I'm just taking this into making the best decision I can to like, okay, if I can focus on this is my goal and my aim and what I'm after, suddenly all of the patterns emerge around that. Oh, now I'm ready for that opportunity, or oh, now this thing is working out, and oh, now this is what is working out because I've focused on my intentions and where I want to put my efforts. I think there's room for these things in other groups. Gets back to what I was thinking about ritual, about how humans are tuned for ritual to tell themselves story. We're tuned for storytelling and ritual and all this sort of thing. So I think there's room from a tech perspective, I'm thinking about what comes to mind quickly is incident management stuff. Sorry, I'm coming off of SRECon this week so, everything's going to be around that. DAMIEN: Our apologies. [laughter] It's all right. AARON: It was fantastic, but it's a different podcast. [laughs] But think about that, right? When you're coming in and doing instant reports, it's so powerful is it to set the intention of the meeting, or any meeting that you have and say, “We are here for this purpose. This is what we're looking to find. We're not looking to do –” Back when Chef had lots to say about this, they'd have those things like we're not here to determine what could have, or should have happened. We're here to find out what did and move the thing. So it's all about setting the intent of that gathering and what outcomes you're after and it focuses the whole conversation can make that meeting more powerful because you've set the focus right off the bat. I think there's room for that other places, too. DAMIEN: That's such a beautiful way of saying it. You described it as setting an attention. AARON: Yeah. S: Whereas, in corporate speak, I would describe it as setting an agenda. AARON: Right, and an agenda is one thing. It's kind of like, “Hey, here's kind of the stuff we're going to do,” but to be like, “We are gathered for this purpose to [laughs] cover this thing.” DAMIEN: No, no. AARON: Right. DAMIEN: Dearly beloved, dear colleague. AARON: Right? Yeah, right. DAMIEN: We are gathered here for this purpose. AARON: Yeah. I mean, we say it this way in personal stuff, why don't we –? Like, it's useful. [laughs] MANDY: It really is. DAMIEN: Because how are you ever going to get something done if you don't know what you're there for? AARON: Right. DAMIEN: Well, you're going to get something done. If you don't have a destination, any road you take is fine. AARON: If you don't have any intention set, it's a series of meetings that could have been emails. [laughter] And then maybe that's the power of it, in a nonmagical space, is forcing yourself to go through this thought process of why am I doing this? Why are we here? What do we want to accomplish? Can probably trim so much of the cruft from all of our meetings and engagements. DAMIEN: That was my favorite sentence as a product manager: what is it you're trying to accomplish? [chuckles] AARON: I say that a lot, DAMIEN: But it is a very, very powerful question. AARON: Especially when you have children asking to use dangerous tools. [laughter] What is it you're trying to accomplish? Maybe we don't need to bust out razor blades. [laughs] DAMIEN: So from an SRE standpoint, when you get together for – what do you call that meeting? An incident review postmortem? Postmortem is a bit – [overtalk] AARON: Yeah, yeah. Post-incident report. There's a handful of names for that reason, but post-incident review. MANDY: Retrospective. DAMIEN: Retrospective, yeah. So the question is, what is it you are trying to accomplish? AARON: Right. DAMIEN: I'm trying to find somebody to blame. AARON: And not blaming. DAMIEN: I'm trying to find somebody to blame so that I look good in my next performance review. AARON: Well, that's what was so important about doing that because that's the shift we're, largely as an industry, trying to make. Finding a person to blame doesn't learn anything about what happened and will teach us nothing for next time. So if we set the intention of like, we're trying to learn from this incident and how we can improve or what we can do better, or maybe there's nothing. Maybe this was just a fluke and let's find that out. That's what we're here to learn. But we're not here to point fingers, or find a root cause because root causes are for plants. [laughter] AARON: Again, that's a whole other podcast. [laughs] MANDY: At the beginning of the pandemic, I owned zero plants. Now, I think I'm the proud plant mother of 20? [laughs] DAMIEN: Wow. AARON: That's amazing. MANDY: I know. AARON: My problem is I can't keep things alive. MANDY: Well, mostly they're all thriving because I set the intention that I was not going to mess this up. [laughter] DAMIEN: There you go. Do you give them moon water? MANDY: I do. DAMIEN: Apparently, it's working. MANDY: I do. Do we want to do some reflections? DAMIEN: Sure. Let's do it. MANDY: I'll start us off. With this conversation, we were just having about the intention and stuff. This is why I think everybody should journal, including CEOs and leaders. Get out a journal, what do you want, and then look back at some of the stuff. I don't it often, but I go back and I'm like, “Oh yeah.” Just reflecting on what you've written in the past and bringing that to the present can really help you put stock in all the things that you want and should be accomplishing. DAMIEN: Yeah. This bringing magic into nonmagical environments and journaling is part of that. A shout out to journaling. Another plug for earlywords.io that I own. Come journal with me because it is a magical thing. It is a ritual I do daily. That clears my mind. That is a practice of the listening to myself. It is a practice of letting go and not controlling what's coming out. Along with that and all the other sort of ways I know of being that I can call magic, I can call hypnotism, I can call NLP, I can call ontological coaching I've done a lot, bringing that into environments where I haven't because they're so useful there and we talked about some of the ways they are and so, we really confirmed more ways of doing that. AARON: I think the things I'm thinking about after this conversation are ritual, intention, and reflection are the big things that are standing up. I think this pandemic, for instance, and how things have changed is because I've had just so much time to have to sit alone by myself and reflect on what's going on externally and internally. But yeah. Anyway, just about setting intentions, of understanding the directions you want to go before going, making sure you're aligned with your goals, and you're not just accidentally wandering down paths that you don't want to be down and turning around and finding out your miserable 10 months later. I think I've thought a lot about the power of even small rituals just to interrupt our standard thought processes and align ourselves with those kind of things. There's been a lot from basic health stuff of here are the rituals I can go through when I'm feeling anxious and I know they'll calm me down to writing in a journal, or directing a group to [laughs] let's align our thought processes. It can be super useful. DAMIEN: Absolutely. MANDY: Awesome. Well, this has been a really fun conversation. I'm glad we just had a panel only episode and I'd love to do more of these in the future. They're really cool. We didn't come to the show with much of an agenda and hopefully, you dear listener, appreciate it. If you would like to give us some feedback, we'd appreciate it. Tweet at us. Join our Slack. AARON: Hire Mandy. DAMIEN: Tell your friends. MANDY: DM me. [chuckles] Tell your friends. DAMIEN: Tell your enemies. MANDY: Tell your enemies, too! [chuckles] We'll see you all next week.

It's the 30th episode of the WhoDatJedi podcast! On this episode, your hosts -- Aaron Svoboda (@Aaron_Svoboda), Alfredo Narvaez (@NOLA_Fredo) and David Gladow (@davegladow) -- are joined by special guest Scott Colesby (@ScottColesby) to celebrate and discuss the Marvel Cinematic Universe, which Aaron JUST finished watching. They share their thoughts on the whole giant experiment starting with what a surprise the first "Ironman" was, and how well the story ultimately paid off in "Avengers: End Game." How does the series compare to the Star Wars saga? They offer some thoughts on that and also share their Top 3 and Bottom 3 rankings of the MCU films. How did "Thor: Ragnarok" make both the "best of" and "worst of" lists? Why did literally everyone have "Ironman 2" in the bottom? And which "Avengers" movie should be considered the best, and why? Follow us on Twitter, Facebook, Apple Podcasts, or Google Play!Read more of Fredo's musings here.Read more of Dave's musings here.Song credit: Far, Far Away (Star Wars Jazz), by the Swamp DonkeysVisit their website for more of their music!---Related: Every comic book movie ranked (mostly)

TranscriptAaron Hixson: Hey Northridge, welcome to A Little Better, where our goal is to know God better and to do better, so that we can be a little better. Hey everybody, welcome back to A Little Better. Thank you for joining us for another episode. I'm coming to you with a very important person. His name is Drew Karschner, but he is more famous for his ability to help you paint like a pro. This is our lead pastor, who has some amazing skills that the CW keeps reminding us of. Drew Karschner: Apparently I have bladder issues as well. So, I don’t know. I can paint, but I can't hold my pee. [Both laughing.] Aaron: That is perfect. If anybody has been watching on the CW or you check out from time to time the TV guide, a few times that we've been on TV, the CW has put up -- I don't know if these were previously paid, you know, advertisers or whatever it was. This past week it was how to Paint Like a Pro with Zoom Paint or something like that. And the first week was literally, what was the actual caption for week 1? Drew: It was like, Trouble with Your Bladder or something like that. Aaron: I got so many funny screenshot text messages of people, they would try to catch you with a funny face, and they're like, "having trouble with your bladder." I'm sure you got that too. Drew: I have enough trouble, like, on my own of not making funny moments, or you know, dumb moments myself. Then the CW, obviously would like to help me out as well. Thank you for that. Aaron: Just a little bit of extra boost as if we needed more opportunities for people to make some memes, but, oh my goodness, that's good. And by the way, if you do have any painting tips, I'd love to hear from, you know, the Zoom paint method. Let me know what that is. I'm doing some painting this week, so I need the help. Drew: Nice. Aaron: Yeah, let's actually go in a little bit more here. I have a question I think that maybe is related to the way we've been planning our services ever since COVID has hit. Something that, especially for people that listen to this podcast, they're probably insiders in our church and are familiar with how we do things normally. We haven't typically done a lot of, like, at the end of a service, you might call it an altar call or an invitation, where people can raise their hand and put their faith in Christ, that kind of a thing. We haven't ordinarily done tons of that, but ever since COVID, we've literally done it every week since March the 15th or whatever it was that we went into COVID. So I'm just wondering if you can let us know why is that, what's the thinking behind it. I haven't heard anything negative about it, I just wanna give you an opportunity to cast some vision around that. Drew: Yeah, so the first weekend we had what we would call COVID series. If you remember, we were in the Unfiltered Jesus series. I was in a boat talking about storms in your life. Man, I preached that message and I watched it on the stream. I felt really good about it, but there was one major regret that I had. I know in the season of fear and uncertainty, people have a lot of questions. I walked away from that service and went, "Man, I didn't give people a chance to respond to the truth of the gospel." And I felt this overwhelming sense of a little bit of regret, and I just felt like the Holy Spirit was like, “Drew, you need to lean into this moment and you need to go for it and give people a chance to respond to the gospel.” So, man, I prayed about it, and I just had this sense of confirmation that that's what God wanted me to do and how he wanted me to lead, so I just chased after it. So, ever since that weekend, I've given people a chance to respond to the gospel. There's two reasons why I do that. One, because I think there's a lot of people out there who haven't experienced the hope of Jesus who need to experience the hope of Jesus. I want to give them a clear picture of what that is, the truth behind that, and the way you accept that. But two, I think just as a Christ follower, for us, man, just because I've accepted the gospel doesn't mean I don't still need the gospel. And hearing the truth of the gospel, each week, and being able to pray for people in the moment where they're choosing to respond against the spiritual forces of evil I think is a really powerful reminder and a really powerful moment for our church. And so, I just feel like it's something really God has led me to do. And we've seen God move in people's hearts. There's really no way of measuring salvation. That's something that only God knows. But we've seen, I think up to this point, 106 people say, "Hey, I said that prayer, I chose to respond to this message." And man, I don't know what that number means. I'll be the first one to be honest and say, man, we've had 106 people let us know they said that prayer. I don't know what that means. Only God does. But man, I'm gonna celebrate that people are responding to that, and I just think it's been really cool to see. Aaron: Mmhmm. Yeah, I agree with all that. What's your thought, or what is the conversation thus far related to our plan, let's say -- I'm not even gonna throw a date out there. Let's just say when we're back together, and things are "normal," even though that will likely be a phased approach, what's your guess as to how or when we might continue this, or how long we would continue it? Drew: I don't know if I know the answer to that question. I feel like I'm gonna just, you know, I think we'll continue to do it. I don't even know if going forward we'll continue to do it every single week the way we're doing it. If you've been coming to Northridge church, you know we like to experiment with things. Aaron: Sure. Drew: And we pull things and we add things fast and quick. And so, I'm gonna do it until I feel like, you know, God tells me to stop. I know that's kind of a generic answer, but I don't know. I don't know if we're gonna continue to do it or if we're gonna stop, but I've seen God use it, and I'm gonna celebrate that until we decide to maybe kind of change it or adjust it better for our services. Aaron: Sure. Drew: All that to say, I don't know. Aaron: [Laughing.] That's an extended answer for the reality of I don't know. That's funny. Okay, cool. I just think that’s really helpful for people to hear, and even for me, you know, to think it through. And I'm actually teaching this weekend, so it's good for me to understand some of those dynamics as well, even though we've talked about it some. Cool. So, this past weekend was a cool one on a few different fronts, but getting to baptise Richie was definitely fun for me. Drew: Amazing story. Aaron: Yeah, incredible story. He worked hard to make sure he could express that clearly. I'm so thankful for Richie's willingness to share, and share honestly. I mean, obviously there's details in there that he could have easily told his story without including, and he chose to be honest. And he had even more that he shared especially about, the importance of Starting Point and the particular leaders who lead in the Henrietta campus Starting Point. Brad and Karen Files, Mike and Chris Maloney, are people that he shouted out in particular. And I just, man, that environment across all of our campuses has been so crucial for people's faith. And I think he said it best. He said "they were there to recruit --" I'm sorry. Backwards. [Laughing]Drew: Yeah, that's wrong. Aaron: "They were there to inform, not to recruit." And I love how he said that. That's the reality of Starting Point. Now, at the end of the day, we are all kind of low-key recruiting, right? But the way that you want people to feel is that we're just letting you know the facts so that you can make a decision, and just be praying that God's at work in their lives. Drew: Yeah, we recruit with love. I like that. It's not like people are a number to us. We just love them, and we allow God to do the work that only he can do. That's what he did in Richie's life. He used people to inform them of the truth, love him where he was, and God worked on him. Aaron: Yeah. And if you believe that there's something really good that you're offering to people, even if you're gonna do it in a gentle and kind and loving way, you still are low-key hoping that they'll do it, which is at some level recruiting. You know? So that kind of brings us to that missional relationship thing of living with urgency. Like, if I genuinely believe that I hold the keys to the truth of reality, especially life after death, then I am going to be at some basic level recruiting, but we don't have to think of recruiting in a negative sense where you're getting, you know, cold sales calls from people that you don't know and who don't care about anything but your money. Like, it's not that kind of recruiting, but we could be that kind of urgent. You know, t's a tension to manage, but the fact that he felt as if they were just there to inform, while in the back of their minds they're desperately hoping and praying that he'll come to know Christ, that's why that was so perfect to me. Because it illustrated how we're trying to come across, while maintaining a deep sense of urgency. Drew: Yeah, I think that's well said. Aaron: And you couldn't even see the gloves that I was wearing, so it really worked. [Both laughing.] I was kind of glad they weren't like bright purple surgical gloves, that were up to the elbows or something. That would have looked a little funny. Drew: Dishwasher gloves. Aaron: Yeah, dishwasher gloves. [Both laughing.] Which, by the way, do you ever wear those when you wash dishes? Drew: No. My wife wears them every time. She's got, like, purple polka-dotted ones and bright red ones, I'm like, why? You know why I wear them? I use them for one thing and one thing only. You ever try to open a jar you can't open? Those gloves are bomb-diggity for getting jars. I mean, literally. I can squeeze my hand, my hand hurts, I put those gloves on, I'm like Hulk. I become the Hulk with that. I'm like, [grunts.] Aaron: That's amazing. I gotta say, I've never had a jar I couldn't immediately open. Basically I just look at a jar, and it starts opening because I'm, like, incredibly strong. Drew: It's cause Lauren twists them for you. Aaron: Well, what? No. Drew: It's cause she pre-twists them for you. Aaron: [Laughing.] Whatever, whatever. Dude, I actually -- Lauren somewhere along the way, like, had decided to grab some of those gloves and now I legit, like I don't want to touch anything in the sink if I'm not wearing those gloves. It's incredible. Drew: I'm not sure I'd let the public know that, Aaron. Aaron: No, seriously bro. Imagine doing like 15 minutes of dishes --Drew: You're not gonna convince me on this. Aaron: Dude, 15 minutes of dishes and there's no wrinkly hands afterwards. It's amazing. Drew: Aaron, I like tubs. So that wrinkly feeling is -- I like it. Aaron: Oh my goodness. Again, there's so much wrong with your whole approach related to water. I just feel like we need to do a whole segment. Drew: You mean the most important resource in the world and I actually like it? You know your body is made up of like 75%, so like, right now, you're rejecting 75% of who you are and who God made you to be. Aaron: No, I don't like to sit in my own filth. That's why I don't like it. [Laughing.] Whatever. The fact that you don't pre-shower before a bath is -- I can't, I'll never be over that. Drew: Just to give a pre-reference, if I work out in the mud, in the field, I do pre-shower. But when I'm already clean and I wanna relax, I just get in the nice clear water. Aaron: Okay, okay. Enjoy your lavender bath bomb. I’ll just -- actually, that would be amazing. I'll take a lavender bath bomb right now. I just would pre-shower. Okay, so the series A Life That Matters, one thing I wanna lean into, we've gotten some feedback I think is actually really helpful around the name of the series and what people are understanding it to mean. Let me just set some context and have you give some clarity around it. The tension is, A Life that Matters sounds as if what we're saying, cause the word matters has multiple meanings, and so if you think of the word matters in our culture, oftentimes it's coming up with like Black Lives Matter or All Lives Matter or Blue Lives Matter and all of the tension surrounding that. But what those hashtags are meant to convey, and in particular, Black Lives Matter, is just trying to illustrate that, you know, people in our community are sometimes treated as if they don't matter. And so this hashtag is meant to highlight the fact that these are lives that actually do have inherent value and worth. So they're using the word matter to imply, this life has value. Just in and of itself. Its existence has value. So when we say "a life that matters," we're kind of making it seem as if, when you look at the world, there are some lives that have inherent value and some lives that don't have inherent value, because that's what the word matter can mean at times. So, I don't believe we're saying that, and I would love for you to tell us what we mean by the word matter so that we can clear up for people that we're not demeaning the value of any human. Drew: Sure, and I think we brought a little bit of clarity to that this weekend when we talked about relationships and, you know, we made this statement, I made this statement. I don't know why I said we. I guess it was just me and that empty room all by myself. Aaron: The royal plural. Drew: You know, we said every life matters. It has intrinsic value because God made people that way, he put his image in them, and so every life has value. That's the way God made us. And so, you can't argue that statement because God already stamped his approval, the truth on it. And so every life has value. What we're really talking about in this series is what you do with your life. And does what you do actually make it count? And so your actions have a lot of weight on whether your life has impact, counts, for not just here and now, but for all of eternity. And so we're looking at kind of the idea of legacy, of a legacy that you can -- and we're gonna talk about this in the series, so this is a kind of sneak preview of where we're headed - a legacy that lasts here on earth, but also looks towards eternity. And so, this is really an action oriented series on what you're doing with your life and how much it can count if you're investing it in the right things. Aaron: Got it. So it's more about the cumulative result of your life's efforts. And I love that word legacy. I think that's. A perfect description because that's what we're leaning into. If you get to the end of your life and you were to just tabulate what you've accomplished and who it will impact, and for how long it will impact them, will you be able to say your life matters? And there's people who have accomplished a lot, but it's stuff that won't ultimately matter for eternity, like whatever, a sports legend who invests their entire life in sports and they get to the end of it, and they're like, "Okay, you got 6 MVPs" or whatever, but that's not gonna matter for eternity. That's not to say that the only thing that has -- the only thing you're allowed to do with your life, like if you're an accountant, you need to quit and become a missionary because you're crunching numbers and that doesn't matter. Of course that's not what we're saying. But that's what A Life That Matters is meant to imply, is are you investing your life, whether you're an accountant, a pastor, an NBA star, whatever you're doing, are you using that platform and those opportunities to have a result of your life that you're gonna say, man I'm so glad that I was a basketball player this way, that I was an accountant who operated this way at work? You know?Drew: Yeah, and I think it goes back to what Paul said this weekend, making the most of every opportunity so, it's learning to invest your time into the right things that not only have impact here, but have impact for forever. Aaron: Got it. So, I think that we'll, if there are folks either struggling through that or trying to figure out if we're making it seem as if someone matters or doesn't -- in fact, I think it's important to say, no matter how you spend your life, it will not impact in any way your inherent worth. You can't make yourself more or less valuable to God by the way that you live your life. Drew: Isn't that the great thing about God? How awesome is that. That truth is amazing, that no matter what you do with your life, doesn't change the value God has placed on your life, but it has significance for where you spend your eternity. Aaron: Yeah. So, if people have questions about that, if you're still struggling through that, trying to figure out either what we mean, or if there's anything in this that brings up a tension in your own life, feel free. Of course, always reach out to any of us, anybody on our staff, any of our social media, we've made that clear. We want to be as accessible as possible. And we would love to bring up specific questions or tensions if you've got them. One thing that we even talked about, Drew, as we were, I guess, sorting through this tension was -- something that came to my mind right away was a line from the book Don't Waste Your Life by John Piper, which, if you haven't read it, it's kind of like a Christian classic at this point. John Piper makes some really strong points about how to invest our lives, and I think it has really impacted a generation of Christianity. But there's a moment -- John Piper's father was an evangelist. At one of his evangelism meetings a guy came forward, placed his faith in Christ, he was in his late 60s or something. John Piper has a vivid memory of this man in what felt like -- John Piper's a kid, so this guy felt really old. And he was at the end of his life and had just placed his faith in Christ. The refrain he kept repeating after placing his faith in Christ was, "I've wasted it, I've wasted it, I've wasted it." The guy, looking back on his life and realizing, "I have nothing to show for these 60-plus years of my life because I've spent it all on myself.” So that person, this guy, he doesn't not matter to God. Of course he matters to God. He has an inherent worth. But he was self-declaring, "I've wasted my life. I've spent it on stuff that doesn't matter, and now I wish I could invest in something that does." Drew: That reminds me, Aaron, this is kind of a sneak peak into this weekend is, we've got a story we're gonna share that is very similar to that. I think it's gonna be really powerful in your message. I can't wait. I just watched it. Man, it'll charge you up. It'll cause you to reevaluate what you're doing with your life. Aaron: No doubt. Drew: It's so powerful. Make sure you're inviting your friends. What a great story. Aaron: It's an incredible story. Drew: By the way, shoutout to Connor Ellsworth, who is actually in our Zoom call right now. Dude, you did an incredible job with the video. Aaron: It came together really well. I've watched it, I don't know, a number of times, and each time, I keep thinking, the first time I listened to it I was like, "Wait, why am I preaching? Can we just play this?" It's like a four and a half minute video and I'm like, let's just play this and be done. I have nothing to contribute. Yeah. It's so good. And his sentiment, this guy from the book Don't Waste Your Life and what you're gonna hear from Michael this weekend, it's just the idea that, "Man, I wish I had done this differently. I don't feel like my life had mattered until I started living this way." Drew: And that's what this series is all about. We talk about death brings perspective. When you're facing death, it doesn't matter how well you lived your life. There's gonna be things you look back and be like, "I did a great job with this." But there's also gonna be areas where you're like, "I wish I would've changed things. I wish I would have done things differently." It's crisis and death that actually give us the clarity that we need to see things accurately. Aaron: I love that. Let's actually talk about that related to the different categories of relationships. What would you do differently, where do you think we tend to go wrong? This is related to everyday relationships, intimate relationships, missional relationships, and our relationship with God. Those are the four categories you talked about, and you even did a little bit of, you know, confession or honesty with us about phone-snubbing your kids or whatever and having regret around that, as we all have. How have you processed this just since Sunday related to making the most of every opportunity and relationship? Drew: I think the big things I was challenged by my message was, one, I want to have more boldness. I feel like I'm seeing that in this crisis. I've had way more boldness just to invite anybody and everybody. I've been, like, scrolling through my contacts being like, "Who haven't I talked to in a while and how can I invite them to the live stream?" And I'm realizing, the worst thing that can happen to me is someone ignores my text or says "I'm not interested." This crisis has given me this, like "Dude, why haven't you been this bold before? What has stopped you?" And it's just creating a boldness in me. And I want more of that. I want that to continue to grow. I don't want that to fade as the crisis fades. I want to keep that, this urgency of, man, I can come up with all the excuses. But what urgency does is it just tears down all my excuses and says "Let's go for it." I'm learning a little bit of that with my missional relationships. Then, with my everyday relationships, obviously I don't want to talk too much about my dad, because we've talked about him, but whew. Yeah. There's just some moments I regret, I wish I could get back. [Emotional.] So that's all I'll say about that cause I'm not gonna make it through. Aaron: Yeah. And as much as sometimes we'll make it seem like you're the emotional one and I'm the nerdy one, I am a super sappy person when it comes to certain relationships, in particular with Lauren. Like, we legit can't watch -- even like romcoms are sometimes on the edge for me, like if there's breakups or spouses passing away or stuff like that. I'm always just like, "Oh, Lauren I love you so much, don't ever leave me" and "I'm gonna miss you." I don't know,something about seeing other people's tragedies that makes us realize that this relationship matters, but an hour ago I thought it was more interesting to be watching some YouTube video. We've all had that moment where either you're talking to your spouse or a friend or something, and the phone starts to creep in and now you're looking at your phone. I've done this a million times where I have to admit to Lauren, I'm like, "I gotta be real with you, I didn't hear a word you just said” because I was too busy doing something stupid.You talked about how we replace the meaningful with the meaningless. I'm watching a YouTube video on how to set up dust collection in a woodshop and the love of my life is talking to me about something. Even if it's insignificant, and I've somehow decided in that moment that I'm gonna prioritize the dumbest video. And as you said, those are the moments that I'm just gonna say, "What was I thinking?" You know? We can't live our lives full of regret, like "Did I literally maximize every second of our relationship?" and I know that. Drew: Right, right. Aaron: But at the same time, I don't wanna lose seconds, you know? I want to make the most of every opportunity. Paul uses that in particular with missions. In both Ephesians and Colossians, those are specific to people who are far from God. He's saying, make the most of every opportunity, but I love that you applied it more generally to even just either your barista or the people that we know the most. Make the most. Why would you not make the most? We have such a short life. These people mean so much to us, and these people will be around for eternity, so catch every moment. You know? Drew: Right, and I just think, you know, we've all worked a job where someone's a jerk to us. And we've all worked a job when someone was kind and appreciative. Sometimes it's as simple as that with your waitress or the person serving you coffee or whoever, your coworkers. It's just like, "Hey, I appreciate you." That goes a long way. Or, "Hey, thanks for my coffee. It was amazing." Or "Hey, how's your day going?" One thing my wife is so good at, and honestly this is where I get convicted in my everyday relationships. We're checking out and I'm ready to go, and my wife is sitting there talking to the cash register. And I'm like, "Babe, shut up! Let's go!" Like, Drew, this is a person. And they're talking to me. And I'm like, dang. I'm a jerk. I am a jerk. I'd rather get on with my day than make the most of the opportunity in front of me. And my wife is so good at this. She'll sit there and, 30 minutes talk, even if there's people behind her. I'm like, "Babe, these people hate you back here, and this person loves you." Aaron: Every cashier that's ever talked to Ashley loves her. Everybody who's behind Ashley hates her. Drew: Like, just keep moving. My wife knows the people at where she goes, where she shops. She knows the name. When she shows up, they're like, "Hey, Ashley, good to see you," and I'm like, "Who are you?" And I'm convicted. I do, I view these people as a means to an end. Your job is to check me out, give me it as fast as you can so I can get the heck out of here. Aaron: Mmhmm. Yeah. And it's very difficult when people serve a utilitarian purpose in our life, it's very easy to begin to ignore them, to not even see them. And you mentioned it, we right now care about these "everyday relationships" in a way we don't normally because, at the moment, your interaction with the cashier at Wegmans is now like --Drew: Vital. Aaron: It's also one of your only interactions with somebody that's not your family. Drew: Can we talk, please? Aaron: You're chatting it up with everybody. Drew: Except there's a screen there. Back away sir. I'm like, "I just need a hug!" Aaron: It's bulletproof glass and they're just like, "Please back away from the barrier." But yeah, so we notice these people and we are grateful for these people, but, you know, life will go back to normal, just like a year after a funeral we go back to how we were operating. Months down the road after this crisis is over, we're gonna start ignoring people again. And so, that's what this series, the essence of it is, you know, it's better to go to a house of mourning, learn the lesson there, and concentrate it into your life such that it won't take crisises in the future to make you care about people, to not miss moments with your family. I know we keep coming back to what this series is all about, but I guess that's just what feels, that's the heart of it. Drew: That's why we do this, cause they're so important. Everybody wants to go back to normal, which I get, at some level I do. But I think we would be missing what God's trying to do if we just go back to the old normal that we had. Maybe we create a new normal that is actually more effective and actually, with our lives, counts even more. Aaron: Yeah, that's beautiful. Let's push toward that. Anything we need to know about this coming weekend? Drew: Um, the man with the beard is preaching. Aaron: Mmm, Nate Miller. [Laughing.] No. Drew: You're preaching, which I'm excited. One, I'm thankful. I just needed a break emotionally and spiritually and physically, so thank you for that. I'm excited to hear. We're gonna be talking about investing our resources, and so it's gonna be incredible, awesome. We're gonna look at two stories, so I'm pumped about that. It's gonna be a great weekend. I've loved this series, and I think it's having some impact on people's lives. Aaron: Agreed. Drew: Do you have anything to say about this weekend? Aaron: Um, well, other than, if you love it, then I did some tweaking. If you hate it, then it was Drew's original message. That's all I have to say. Whatever credit there is to have, I want it. Whatever blame there is, I'm dishing it. Drew: I'll take it for you, bro. You're preaching for me, I'll take your blame. Aaron: [Laughing.] Hopefully the CW, dude, if they give me -- I can't wait for what caption they give. Drew: You know it's gonna be perfect because I'm not there. You won't get any pictures, no awkward faces with the bladder out of control, it'll be like, the title's gonna be Aaron Hixson is better than Drew. That's what they're gonna put. Aaron: No, it's gonna be, like, a modeling agency or something. It'll be like, "Don't you wish you looked this good?" [Laughing.] Oh my goodness. Okay. Well, we'll just wait and see. I don't wanna get too excited about what the CW labels me. Thanks everybody for listening. Seriously, we would love to have a conversation with you. Send in comments, questions, concerns. We wanna alleviate tensions and help everybody the way that we can. So, we'll see you this weekend on the chat stream or the correctly labelled CW. Thanks guys. Transcript lightly edited for readability.

FREE DOWNLOADSDatenightconversations.comMarriageprayerchallenge.comparentingprayerchallenge.com “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” - Ephesians 4:1 How do I become more selfless in my marriage?What are some Tips for consistency in communication within marriage to build intimacy?How do we live for God together...my husband never really been to church Etc?How do you work through disagreements on hobbies? IE motorcycles?How do you keep chasing dreams God's call you to, when your spouse is in a totally negative place?Do you still struggle with trusting your husband? Speaking about p 0rn and how can you battle thoughts?What is your number one advice to couples struggling?READ TRANSCRIPT[Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're gonna answer some questions from the community about not seeing eye-to-eye in marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life-- Love-- And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God-- Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Marriage After God podcast. This is gonna be a Q&A episode where we polled our community and we got a buncha questions about a specific topic, which is not seeing eye-to-eye, and we're gonna answer those in a bit. But first, before we get into that, Jennifer, is there anything new going on in your life? Is there anything you wanna chat with me about? [Jennifer] I love chatting with you. Something that I wanted to share, that's been on my heart for our listeners, is just something that I been doing intentionally with a girlfriend of mine and that is discipleship and it's going really well, we meet bi-weekly. And the reason that I wanted to bring it up is because I think so often we can go about our days and our times and our schedules and just focus on what is at hand and what we need to do and sometimes we forget about discipleship or mentorship or how we impact other peoples' lives. And I just think it's really important for us to consider, you know, who's that older, more mature Christian in our life that we can glean from? So, someone we can be spending time with that will fill us up that will maybe speak truth into our life or see something that isn't going the way it should be and call it out in us or maybe we can go to them for a question. And then, who's that person who is younger than you that you can reach out to and have an impact in their life? You know, be that person for them. Toward God. Yeah. Encouraging them. Yeah. So, I just, I'm bringing it up because it's been going so well in my personal life that I just thought, "Man, if they're not thinking about this, "I want them to be thinking about this." [Aaron] Well, and it's a, we've talked about this in past episodes, about the necessity of community and walking with each other and our ministries in other people's lives. Yeah. [Aaron] Just the importance of we're not autonomous creatures, we're part of a body, and God's given us gifts that must be used to glorify Him and to mutually build up the Church and to encourage each other and to bless each other, so. [Jennifer] And sometimes our flesh can get in the way, you know, those insecurities where we go, "Oh, it'd be really nice to spend time with that person." But then we answer for them, right? We go, "Oh, they're too busy." Or, "They can't." Or, "I don't know"-- You're really good at this, aren't you? "I don't know what to say." Answering for people. Answering for people, yeah. And you've drawn me out of this. But my encouragement to that person is don't answer for that person but surrender to God, pray about your desire to build that relationship up, and then have the courage to just ask. And if they say, "I can't at this time," receive it and say, "Okay," and pray about, maybe, who else you can engage with in that way. But chances are, they're gonna be thrilled to hear from you. [Aaron] Yeah, I've been through something very similar. Not necessarily, I don't have a scheduled meeting with a single person each week or every other week, but I've been trying to intentionally meet regularly with all the men from our fellowship. Mainly to get to know them more, to get into deeper relationship with them, to be encouraged by them. But also to, yeah, disciple. And we're called to make disciples, we're called to walk with each other and sharpen each other, as iron sharpens iron. If we're not doing that and we're just kind of going about our day and, yeah, we see 'em at church on Sundays and then we leave and we have dinners every once in awhile, but if there's no intentional, like, "'Kay, I actually want to be in this person's life, "lifting them up to the Father, "and I want someone in my life doing that for me," we're kind of missing out on a huge part of what it means to be a believer, so. That's a great encouragement for everyone listening. Yeah. So, before we get into the questions, we wanna tell everyone about our free things that we have to offer you guys. We've made a bunch of resources now that I feel like they keep compiling, like, we're making more and more. 'Cause we get an idea and then we're like, "Okay, "let's make it and let's give it to everyone," so. [Jennifer] And I gotta admit, I'm the one that pushes for the new ones because I want you guys who have already been through, maybe, some of the ones that we've been offering to jump into the new one, which, the newest one we just launched is the Parenting Prayer Challenge, which, oh my gosh, I'm so excited about. [Aaron] Yeah, it's a totally free email challenge and essentially, we send you an email every day for 31 days giving you a prayer prompt for a specific area of your child's life, either your son or your daughter, and it's a reminder every day. [Jennifer] And it doesn't matter what age your kids are because it could be for your infant all the way up to your adult-- Your kids that are out of the house. Children, yeah. [Aaron] And you can get that at parentingprayerchallenge.com, all one word. It's totally free, you should go sign up today if you haven't. And just a quick note on the other ones, we have a free download called Date Night Conversations. It's a list of 52 conversation starters. You can get that at datenightconversations.com, one word. And then the last one is Marriage Prayer Challenge. It's similar to the Parenting Prayer Challenge, but it's for your marriage. Prayer's best. [Aaron] Yeah, you can sign up to pray for your wife or you can sign up to pray for your husband and we send you a prompt every day for 31 days. So, get those, those are completely free. [Jennifer] All right, so we are moving on to today's topic, which, we're doing a Q&A. We already polled the community from social media. We usually do this on Instagram, so if you're not already following, be sure to follow @marriageaftergod. You can also follow me @unveiledwife for some more wife encouragement and then @husbandrevolution for more husband stuff. [Aaron] And we'd love for you to be following us on Instagram so that you can see the behind the scenes stuff in our life. When we do the polls, we'd love for you to participate in those. We look at all those questions that you guys give us. [Jennifer] So, what we do is we poll you guys, we ask you to submit your questions, and then we use those to order these Q&As. [Aaron] Sometimes the questions are not all in the same category, but if we find enough in a category, we're like, "Oh, that's what we're gonna talk about." And so, we try and answer those. And we also always wanna start with: we don't have all the answers. Yeah. That's a funny way to start out a Q&A. We don't. We know this. [Aaron] We will answer to the best of our abilities, we will answer based off of things we've experienced and, as always, we're gonna try and, to the best of our abilities, point back to scripture. We don't always do that well either, but that's our heart because we know that the Word of God is the Word of God; it's perfect and we know that everything that we order our life by should be ordered by it. And so, we try, to the best of our ability, to do that, so. [Jennifer] So, today's kind of overarching topic is not seeing eye-to-eye in your marriage, which can play out in a lotta different ways, but I would also label this as disunity. So, this idea of not being unified-- [Aaron] Right, not on the same page. [Jennifer] Not on the same page in marriage. [Aaron] Which is that, the analogy of not seeing eye-to-eye, that we're unbalanced, you know, one's higher, one's lower, and so you're not seeing in the same space. And so, you have the, unity is a huge thing for marriage. And I'm sure that many marriages don't even struggle with this, right? Like, this is a unique issue in-- [Jennifer] I'm gonna correct Aaron, I'm gonna correct that. [Aaron] We're not gonna see eye-to-eye on this. [Jennifer] I think every marriage encounters this. Yeah. A lot, actually. Every human relationship. Yeah. [Aaron] In the history of human relationships. [Jennifer] Because we're all different heights. [Aaron] Like, it started in the Garden of Eden. You look at Adam and Eve. Come on, guys. [Aaron] Eve was like, "Oh, it does look good to eat." And Adam's like, "All right." No, just checkin'. [Aaron] And just, from the very beginning, not seeing eye-to-eye. But that's what we're gonna talk about today. There's quite a few questions, so why don't you start off reading some scripture? Okay. So, we're gonna dig into Ephesians 4 and starting in Verse 1, it says this: "I, therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, "urge you to walk in a manner worthy of "the calling to which you have been called, "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, "bearing with one another in love, "eager to maintain the unity of "the spirit in the bond of peace." And if, for some reason, you hear that verse right now and you're like, "You guys have shared "that verse so many times on this podcast"-- A couple. I'm not gonna apologize. The more we say that verse and the more you hear it and the more we live according to it, we will experience this, right babe? [Aaron] Well, and it's essentially Biblical meditation. We're repeating it, we're chewing on it, we're gonna say it over and over again because it's true. [Jennifer] And we're gonna see how it applies to our life and, you know, what we are-- [Aaron] Well, and it's a good tone to start with, to set the mood for this conversation, because no matter where you're at in your marriage, you could be thinking, like, "My husband "just thinks this certain way "and I'm not gonna get on that page with him." Or, "My wife just doesn't understand," fill in the blank. If we're eager to maintain unity with our bride-- Maintenance. With our spouse. [Aaron] That's gonna be the place that we start from, not a, "They need to change because I'm not gonna change." It's a, "What needs to change so that "we're on the same page?" And maintain is, that's a constantly occurring, that's not a, "Okay, we got on the same page "and now we're fine for the rest of our lives." This is a consistent-- Oh, we gotta realign-- Checking. Oh, we gotta do it again. Yeah. Oh, let's do it again. Let's continue to be this way, yeah. [Jennifer] Yeah, so I couldn't help but start out, also, obviously, God's Word is the priority and first and foremost, but I also wanted to start out sharing a little bit from Marriage After God because we've-- Book plug! Written a book for you and if you haven't gotten it yet, we want to urge you to get it, but this is from page 56 in Marriage After God and it talks about this idea of oneness, okay? You know, in Genesis, it talks about two becoming one flesh and so, we though it'd be great to elaborate on this in Marriage After God and so-- [Aaron] Okay, so I'm actually gonna read this section. Jennifer's actually a little outta breath, being pregnant and all-- He's saving me! [Aaron] So, it says this, it's on page 56: "One flesh does not mean two "independent individuals sometimes acting as one, "neither does it mean two individuals "negotiating a workable schedule where they "inhabit the same space but leave each other alone. "One flesh is a picture of unity, a joining together, "a growing together, where parts of each are woven together "in a way that there is no noticeable seam. "Oneness is one of the greatest ways "we show the world the true gospel." [Jennifer] So, what you're saying is it's powerful. Yeah. Our oneness in marriage. Did we write this? Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, the idea of oneness it's not our idea, it's a Biblical idea, we pulled that from the Bible directly. And it's, again, the reason why I wanna talk about this and we always go back to it is because our marriage represents something more than just our marriage. It's a symbol that God created to represent Christ and the Church and the relationship between the two, that we are no longer separate, we're no longer nomads, we actually are part of Christ, we are one with Christ, the same way my wife and I are one. But when we walk in disunity, when we walk in brokenness and we're not seeing eye-to-eye, we're against each other where actually-- [Jennifer] Or even apathy where it's like, "I know we're off, I know we're"-- "And I don't care." "Not seeing eye-to-eye "and I don't care." Yeah. That's so dangerous. It's not the symbol that God intends it to be, so we're walking in opposition to God's way when we walk that way, so-- So, it's good to maintain that, you know, what you were talking about earlier, it's good to-- Maintain, yeah. Have priority in our marriage to focus on unity. [Aaron] So, question one, from the community, it says, "How do I become more selfless in my marriage? "I wanna please my spouse." Okay, first of all, this is just an outstanding question. I love that someone is even admitting that they want this because so often, our flesh gets in the way, our selfish nature gets in the way of even admitting this. [Aaron] Yeah, 'cause we're selfish. Yup. Naturally, without the Spirit workin' in us. I guess I would first say, this was specifically from a wife to a husband but I said spouse because it goes both ways, and the short answer and the practical answer is: serve the other person. Yeah. Right? The antidote to selfishness is service, you know? The antidote to wanting my feet washed is washing someone's feet. You know, you look at the picture of Christ and what he did for his disciples. And so, I guess, I just had a conversation with a brother from church, we were talkin' about meeting with people, and I brought up this idea of how, if you look at anything in life, how does anything grow? You feed it. Like a tree: you water it, you nurture it, you feed it, you prune it, and it grows. If I want my muscles to grow, I have to work them out, I have to use them, I have to feed them with the right nutrients, and I have to do the correct thing for them to work. I can't just sit back, wish they grew, desire them to grow, desire these things to happen, but do nothing. Children, right? You want them to grow-- You gotta feed 'em, it's like-- No. Oh, that's not-- But more than that, you can't just sit back and just let them have at it in the world, you gotta-- Yeah. Teach them and-- [Aaron] They can't be left to their own devices, they have to be guided and teached and disciplined and corrected-- Taught. And talked to and taught. You said teached. [Aaron] Teached. Oh, did I really? Yeah. Okay. So, in the same way, to become more selfless or, on the flip side, less selfish, you have to practice and work out that muscle. Yeah. So, an example in our marriage: we all go through these seasons where I want physical intimacy and maybe Jennifer can't give it to me. Like, we're pregnant right now, so this is a natural thing that happens, but times that we're not pregnant, maybe she's tired or whatever. And in my selfish flesh, I want something physical. But the selfless, spiritual-driven decision would be like, "Okay, I'm using that as a trigger, "I'm recognizing I want something. "I bet my wife wants something, too." And so, I tried, and I didn't do this every time, I don't do this all the time, but it's something I tried practicing is, "I'm gonna go and try and"-- [Jennifer] Give me the thing that it is you want. So, if it's a foot massage or-- Yeah, I want something-- Physical touch. [Aaron] Physical but I'm gonna go and say, "Hey, can I give you a massage?" And she wasn't even expecting it. Yeah. And that, it wasn't to manipulate, it was purely like, "I know I want something and right now, I'm just, "I know she probably can't give it or isn't interested "and it would be very selfish for me to "try and make her feel bad about it "or try and get something without her desiring it as well." So, I go and serve her. And so, that was one example, is practicing that muscle of service. Which, again, I'm not tryna make myself sound great. [Jennifer] So, I think the word that keeps coming to my mind as you're talking, Aaron, is the word initiation. And we have to be initiators, we have to be people who are willing to start first and not let our selfishness get in the way of that. And so, that would be my answer to this question, is: be an initiator. But even, prior to that, I would say we have to be people who are willing to get into God's Word and know it and let it transform us. And how does that happen? When we recognize our selfishness and we repent of it. Mm hm. Right? Because without repenting of your own selfishness when you see it flare up, you're never gonna change. You're always gonna be a selfish person. [Aaron] Which, repentance literally means to change your mind about. So, thinking you deserve something and therefore you're not gonna give something because if you're not getting what you deserve, why would you give what someone else doesn't deserve, right? And two scriptures come to mind when I think about this, a way of thinking about how to know when to give, to be selfless. I think of the Golden Rule: "Do unto others "as you would have them do unto you." And that's kind of a trigger, is any time I'm desiring something, it's probably a safe bet that the other person in my life, my wife, also is desiring something, right? And so, if I take that as a trigger, like, "Oh, I want, I'm trying, my flesh wants something "or my heart wants something." I can say, like, "Oh, I can go give this to my wife. "The thing that I want, I can give to her." But it's gonna be different, it may not be the exact thing I want, but. Let's say I want time to myself. It's probably possible that you want time to yourself. So, I can go be like, "Hey, "would you want to go out tonight?" Or, "Is there anyone you want to get together with?" Or, "Do you just need to go take a bath?" Yeah. Like, I can think that way. And so, I think of that loving your neighbor as yourself or doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, it's just thinking about the things that you want and then flipping it and saying, "How can I give the thing that I want to someone else?" The second verse that comes to mind is in Luke and it's about lending to people and it says this, it's Luke 6:34 through 36, it says, and this is Jesus talking: "And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, "what credit is that to you? "Even sinners lend to sinners to get back the same amount. "But love your enemies and do good and lend. "Expect nothing in return. "Your reward will be great "and you will be sons of the most high, "for He is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. "Be merciful even as your Father is merciful." And this is kind of not directly talking about selfishness but it's this idea of lending without this expectation. Like, give without saying, "I'm giving to you "only if I'm guaranteed you're gonna return it to me." That's true selflessness. So, that's what it's saying, is God's even kind to the ungrateful and evil, he's patient with them, let's the rain fall on them as well and gives them crops. That's what this idea's talking about. You know, so we should be merciful, so. [Jennifer] You know, I was gonna ask you a question in conjunction to this question and that is: when people, when a couple, when they're not seeing eye-to-eye or there's disunity in the marriage, usually they don't want to serve each other, right, and so there's that that they're combating. And my question was gonna be: how do you do that, how do you serve each other, how do you love each other amidst that disunity? But I feel like you just answered it in that scripture. [Aaron] Well, it's giving, so, and we always go back to this, I have this quote I say all the time: we can't let our obedience be contingent on our spouse's actions. Like, "Well, you're not loving me "the way I wanna be loved or deserve to be loved, "therefore I'm not gonna respect you." It doesn't work that way. The only person we have control over is ourselves. So, the only person we have to worry who's being obedient, yes, I'm concerned if my wife's being obedient to the Lord, but for me, the only person I can actually control, in the Spirit that God's given me, is myself. And so, even if my spouse isn't walking the way I want them to or doing what I want them to, I can still choose to walk in righteousness, I can still choose to walk in love and be graceful and merciful and patient and kind and loving, right, on my side. That's really good. So, even when there is disunity, even when you're not seeing eye-to-eye on a specific thing in your marriage, you can still love unconditionally. Right, exactly. Cool. Okay, so let's move on to number two. "How do we live for God together? "My husband never really has been "to church or anything like that, so." [Aaron] Okay, and again, this would go back to you have a wife that's not, doesn't go to church with you, isn't a believer, and the husband is a believer or vice versa in the situation. [Jennifer] So, how do you live for God together when one person isn't already living for God? [Aaron] Again, I go back to you can't control the other person. You can't make someone live for God that doesn't wanna live for God. [Jennifer] Basically, this is a not seeing eye-to-eye on a spiritual level. [Aaron] Yeah, on the greatest level, I would imagine. But you, the Bible gives instruction to the wife on how she can walk in a certain way that can totally spiritually influence her husband. You see that with the husband, the husband can walk a certain way that will influence his wife. [Jennifer] Regardless, any person who is following Christ and Christ is living inside of them has an impact in this world. Yeah. Bottom line. [Aaron] And if your spouse, as the Bible says, is willing to stay with you, even if they don't love God, if they're not walking with God, and they're staying with you and you love God, think about the thousands and thousands of hours that that person who doesn't know God is gonna be around God because of you. Like, it's not like you walk up to a stranger on the street and they had a split second that you got to preach the gospel to them. Like, this person's living in the gospel daily. It's going have effect. Mm hm. [Aaron] So, I would say there's no answer on how you can walk together with God if the other person doesn't want to, but you can walk with God for your spouse and in front of your spouse and toward your spouse. [Jennifer] And I would say your greatest desire, before even living for God together, is: how can I get my spouse to live for God? And so, being prayerful for their salvation and being prayerful that they have a growing desire to serve God. Nonstop. [Jennifer] That's a foundational thing that needs to happen. One more note on this. So, me and you, we got married, and from the beginning, wanted to serve God together. Yeah. Right? Essentially, what this wife is desiring, for her and her husband, we were there. But even in the middle of two believers who love God, loved each other, and wanted to serve God together, we were often not on the same page spiritually, we were often at odds with each other in how we wanted to serve God, in our own sins. So, even in the midst of what you might be desiring, of that perfect, like, we're both chasing God together, you still have to walk in your own faith, uprightly, with God for your spouse because they're going to fail you at times, they're not going to be on the same page with you. And that's something that we experienced. Yeah. So, we were on the other spectrum of wanting to do it together but still felt chaotic sometimes. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I would say, after all these years of continually growing in our personal relationship with God, that is what has brought us closer together and has driven that desire to continue to serve Him together. And so, I would say to live for God means that you know Him and so, a good starting place, well, we already talked prayer and praying for salvation, but, is knowing God, getting in His Word, going through resources like Husband After God or Wife After God. [Aaron] Yeah, our marriage devotionals. [Jennifer] Yeah, which you can get and maybe you'll start it and maybe your spouse won't. Maybe you'll be halfway through and it's still sitting untouched for your spouse. Maybe you'll be finished with it for months and finally they pick it up. I don't know how God orchestrates all of that, all I know is I've heard plenty of stories where a couple has the resource and they start going through it and it draws their hearts closer to God, so. And that's just one resource out of so many out there. [Aaron] Okay, so question number three. We have a lotta questions, so we'll see if we can get through 'em. It says, "What are some tips for consistency "and communication within marriage to build intimacy? "i.e. You may not be in an agreement on a topic, "so how do you communicate through it?" [Jennifer] Gosh, I wanna say don't go into it super inflamed and heated. But that's the best way. You go in at a hundred. No, but sometimes you just feel that intense about it and so, whatta you do, Aaron, when you have that intense of an emotion about a topic or about something that you need to navigate with your spouse? I mean, practically, being quiet, starting with silence. I think of that scripture that says, "Be slow to speak and quick to listen and quick to hear." 'Cause often, to be honest, most of the communication issues in marriage is misunderstanding. Because you, as a emotional creatures, God's made you more emotional, you're gonna say something with emotional words and I'm gonna interpret that a hundred different ways and none of the ways I interpret it are how you feel, right? And men being logical creatures, and that doesn't mean women are illogical, it's just hearing something and it's not what you meant and it's not what you're saying and I'm hearing it a certain way and I'm putting it through my own filters and that's what happens, so. Being slower to just jump at the person and be like, "Oh, you said this and that hurt me." But actually hearing and listening and being slower to saying stuff because once the words leave our lips, they're gone and they're-- Yeah, but we're also held accountable to them, right? I think something that I've learned in our own marriage, Aaron, is the way that I can have self control in coming to you with my emotions and still be respectful but still communicate them to you and let you know, "Hey, when this happened, I felt this way." And so, I'm not yelling at you, I'm not out of control, I'm not making you feel little, I'm just explaining this is what happened and this is how it made me feel. And I think it's important for couples, like you said, to be slow to speak and quick to listen so that we hear each other. I think hearing each other is so important. [Aaron] Yeah, and then, and we always bring this up, is: what is your intention? Is your intention to win, is it to defeat your spouse? [Jennifer] Well, the goal should be unity, right? Right. But that has to be a conscious decision, like, "Am I mad right now and I wanna destroy you "or do I actually want there to be peace?" And not just apathy, like, "I just don't wanna deal with it "so let's not talk about it anymore," but, "Am I fighting for something and it's chaotic "or is this something that I even need to be fighting about? "Is this even matter, what I'm frustrated about "or what we're miscommunicating about?" But recognizing that the whole purpose, at the end of it, is that we're unified, we're reconciled, we are one again, we're in intimacy, you know? [Jennifer] Well, and intimacy means to be known. It's not just a physical intimacy, although that's how you're known physically, it means to be known. And the way that we make ourselves known is we are vulnerable, we are transparent, we are real. And so, we're not hiding anything, we're not keeping things from each other, but we're also not disrespectfully just throwing it all out there. There's this self control that comes with it and a safe place where we know we can communicate back and forth and that's what builds intimacy in marriage. That's what makes me feel known, that's what makes you feel known. [Aaron] Yeah, so knowing your end result, which is, it should be humbleness, because God wants his people to be humble, and it should be reconciliation. So, that deals with 99% of our arguments from day to day. It's very rare that we're having arguments over real big things, it's always the little things. And then, what happens is you get all those little things, when the big things do come up, you're gonna be infinitely better at dealing with that with your spouse 'cause you know that you're on the same team. [Jennifer] A good little side note tip would be to start out and use sentences with I instead of you. So, you're not pointing the finger here, you're actually opening your hand and saying, "I want you to know who I am." [Aaron] Mm hm, yeah, that's good, that was a good tip. So, here's a good one. Everyone's gonna have some level of issue. [Jennifer] What's the first thing that pops into your mind when we say this question? [Aaron] How do you work through disagreements on hobbies? And the example that was given is motorcycles and it's probably very personal to that person. Yeah. But women have, this actually could be a wife's hobby. But any hobby at all, hobby's essentially the extracurricular, it's, "I have this passion "outside of my home or outside of my work or"-- [Jennifer] Which, I know you'll generally answer, but I just have to say, when I saw this question come through, I think there would be a disagreement on something like the example they gave, motorcycles-- Motorcycles, right. [Jennifer] Because it's dangerous, right, and so, we also have to address that aspect of, maybe, what this question means, but why don't you kick it off? [Aaron] I would, on the hobbies side of things, regardless of what the hobby is, because there's so many different levels of ability. There could be a wife that is into skydiving with their husband and most people would be like, "No way," but they're like, "No, this is totally fun." So, I'm not gonna just pick on any specific hobby 'cause that doesn't matter, for the most part. I'm sure there's hobbies that are absolutely like, "Well, that's sin, you shouldn't be doing that." [Jennifer] And then there are safer ones, like quilting. [Aaron] And then there could be totally benign ones that mean nothing and it's like, "Well, what's the big deal? "This is not a sin that I'm doing this." The questions should always be wrapped up in wisdom. Can you afford it? If your wife or your husband's not in agreement with it, that should be immediately a red flag because you're not in unity and it's not just a, "That person needs to change how they think about my hobby," because what if God put an insight or a discernment in your spouse? Because remember, you guys are on the same team, regardless of if you feel like you're in a team or not, and your spouse has a reason for having an issue with it. Now, that spouse, as you guys communicate about the hobby, humbly, it could, you could find out that the spouse just has, like your wife, has some sort of disposition from a childhood about the thing you're doing. So, it has nothing to do with anything else other than they just feel uncomfortable. [Jennifer] But if that's the case, is it worth it to listen and hear? Absolutely. Yeah. [Aaron] But what I'm saying is they could, through the conversation, be like, "You know what? "I am being irrational and it's not that big of a deal." Or-- The point is that they're talking about it. Yeah. Or it comes to this side of, "Well, "I just can't get behind it." And then at that point, are you gonna say, "Well, then get outta here 'cause I'm gonna keep doin' it"? And then essentially, you're choosing a hobby over your spouse. Well, on the flip side to this, the spouse that's in disagreement with that spouse's hobby, what's your heart posture and reasoning? Because are you just against it because you don't like them spending time alone from you? Are you just against it because you don't like what they like? So, I feel like the biggest part of this question, and it's for both spouses in the marriage, is: what are the motivations of your heart? On both sides. And are you communicating that to each other? [Aaron] Right, and usually, if you're defensive about something, if you're trying to defend and protect your hobby, that usually is rooted in something and you gotta immediately start asking yourself, "Why am I trying to protect this so much? "Why does this thing mean so much to me?" Because you could be using that hobby as a surrogate for your marriage. Like, "I get more fulfillment out of this thing "than I do out of my marriage or my kids." [Jennifer] Like an escape or something, yeah. [Aaron] And if that's the case, that's dangerous and that's called an idol. You should be careful with that. So, I think, any, there should be nothing in our life, not a single hobby should have any sort of weight against our family, against our ministry, against our marriage, against our responsibilities at our work, with our kids, none of that. Anything, it doesn't matter what the hobby is, it shouldn't be off the table for a negotiation. It should be something that you should humbly be willing to release, if necessary. And the necessity could be your wife or your husband just is like, "I don't like it." And to be honest, even if they're irrational, they are one with you. And if you're gonna just say, "I disagree with you, "you're irrational, I'm gonna keep doing it," you've just literally, how are you ever gonna be intimate, on any level, with a person that you said, "I don't care what you say, I'm doing it anyway"? You just can't. So, I would just put a warning in anyone's life, and this goes for the husbands and the wives, if there's anything in their life, a book club, a quilting club, a hobby of, like, you name it, everyone that's listening is probably thinking, "Oh, I have this hobby." [Jennifer] "I know what my thing is," yeah. [Aaron] And my job right now is not to say hobbies are bad 'cause you can totally have a healthy hobby, maybe it's something that you do with your family, maybe that it's something that you do by yourself, and you have total control over it and it doesn't get in the way of your responsibilities and your family totally feels taken care of and loved and that you're present-- [Jennifer] And they actually enjoy participating in it with you. [Aaron] Yeah, there's lots of things. But at the same time, if you have any level of, "I'm not lettin' this thing go "and no one's gonna stop me," that's a wrong heart. And whatever that thing is that you're into has got some sorta hold of you that you need to deal with. Yeah. So, I wanna share two things. One of them just kinda popped into my heart and I can't push it away for some reason and that is: if you, the individual, have some sort of hobby and you've been feeling convicted in your own heart because of timing, finances, lack of-- How often you're doin' it. [Jennifer] Yeah, whatever the thing is, please please please please please don't push that feeling off and just wait for your spouse to come and share their disagreement with you about it. Be a mature, Christian person, yield to the Holy Spirit-- Who's speaking to you. And say, "God, what are you trying to tell me "and how can I surrender this to you?" If that means give it up 100%, are you willing to do that? I just felt like I had to say that. The other thing is more personal, but I just wanted to share an encouragement. I didn't want it to all sound negative. But Aaron, you have been so good at, first, learning who I am, I don't wanna say studying me, but over time together, you know me pretty well and you know the things that fuel me, as a person, like writing and painting and crafting, and you encourage me in it. Now, there have been times in our marriage where we've been so strapped, it's like, "You can't spend that money on that, "you know, whatever that thing is." But there's also been, often, there's been times where you know that I've been going, going, going and you look at me and go, "I think you "just need to go to a coffee shop and write. "You just need to go do this thing with your girlfriends. "You just need to," and you're a supporter and an advocate for giving me space and time to be fueled by the things that interest me and I just had to say that because I think that, as a husband and wife, we have an incredible position and opportunity to support one another in the things that do fuel us, the things, the hobbies that we're interested in. And you've been really good at that, so I just wanted to say thank you but also use it as a testimony for those listening that they can be that way in marriage, it just requires communication. Yeah. That was good, thank you, I wasn't expecting that. Okay, why don't you read question number five? [Jennifer] How do you keep chasing dreams God's called you to when your spouse is in a totally negative place? So, I'm imagining this is a season, not just a day but not always like this, but they're just in a negative place and how are you supposed to keep moving forward with those dreams that you, maybe, were chasing together or were hoping to chase together? [Aaron] This, it sounds more personal, it sounds like this person, whoever it is, feels like God's called them to something specific. Oh, like individually. Yeah. And they're spouse is in another place. Okay. Either emotionally or mentally or maybe they hate their job and the other spouse is trying to pursue a ministry of some sort or-- Okay. [Aaron] The question itself tells me that the initial, the way the question's worded tells me that they're missing out on the first calling. The marriage? The marriage. [Jennifer] Yeah, that's what I was thinking. [Aaron] We have a responsibility, we're told to love our neighbor as ourself. And I always say, "Who's your closest neighbor?" Yeah. It's your spouse. And then your kids and then your actual neighbors and then your fellowship. And it's not like you neglect the others for the first, but you don't go out of order. I don't neglect my wife, when she needs me the most, to go serve someone else. That's out of order. Well, and here's what I think about that, is: if, let's say it is individual and one of the spouses is pursuing ministry or whatever they feel God has called them to do or maybe it's that they had a specific calling as a couple and that person's in a negative place now and they're not doing that anymore. How effective would either one of them be in any of those situations if they're not unified in their marriage? Not very effective at all. Well, and here's, this is actually the sad part, is they actually could be effective. But they're not effective where it counts. You know, we have children at home, we have our marriage to take care of, and it's not just to have a happy marriage, it's that we have a powerful marriage and that we, like, if I can't minister, we say this in our book Marriage After God quite a bit, actually, if I can't minister to my spouse, what right do I have to go and minister to someone else? I don't want to minister to you, you're in a negative place, but I'm gonna go try and minister other people that are in a negative place. There's something backwards with that. And I also understand that you could be, have already in this mode and you see God moving and God's using you and then your spouse, your husband, your wife, is going through something. And you're like, "Well, do I have to put everything "on hold because this thing's happening?" Yes. Is it totally possible that God brought them to that place and then is asking them to postpone it or wait until-- Absolutely. Something else happens? That could be part of it, right, just as an encouragement. [Aaron] Yeah, I'll get, I don't have the specific scripture on this, but Jesus, when Jesus talked to the Pharisees, you know, we all have a negative connotation of the Pharisees, right? But the Pharisees were God's people and they were the priests in line, they were the ones that were to teach the law to everyone, right? But Jesus, the problem Jesus had with the Pharisees was not just that they were Pharisees. The reason they get a bad rap is because of how they acted. They acted holy and they did the thing that they believed God was calling them to do without doing the things that they should have been doing. [Jennifer] The very specific things that He-- [Aaron] Yeah, He gives this example and He says, "You take advantage of your parents. "You say, "The things that I would "give to you, I give to God instead."" And that's exactly, that's what this question sounds like to me. "God's calling me to this thing over here "but my spouse is holding me back." And I feel like Jesus would say the exact same thing to that person: "Okay, you wanna do what I want you to do, but you're "neglecting the thing I've already told you to do. "I've told you to honor your husband "or submit to your husband." Or, "I've told you to love your wife "as Christ loves the Church. "And yet, you don't wanna do that thing 'cause "they're holding you back from my call in your life? "My call in your life is that also." And so, in another place, Jesus tells to the Pharisees, he says, "You tithe your mint and your cumin "and yet you neglect the weightier things of the law." He says, "You should, the weightier things "are justice and love and mercy." And he says, "And you don't do those things when you "shoulda done those things and the other ones." So, I just go back to this idea of if there's something going on, let's say you have a spouse that gets injured and you no longer can go do the things that you usually do and the ministry that you had and now you have to focus on your spouse. Does that change that you're doing ministry? No. No, you just have changed your energies to a place that the energies need to be right now. If your spouse is in an emotional place, broken, they lost a family member, they're depressed, they're going through things, do you just leave them behind because they're getting in the way of the true ministry? No, if it says the good shepherd was willing to leave the 99 for the one, the one is your spouse. You don't, you leave the 99 that God can take care of because it's God and it's His sheep and His ministry, and you can minister to the one that God's given you. And minister and wash and take care of. And that should never be neglected. I just, we can't do that, I can't tell someone, "Yeah." Well, first of all, we like to use words like, "God told me to," and "God's shown me," and "God's given me" as if that's a trump card. "You can't tell me I'm not supposed to "do this thing because God called me to it." But you know what I can tell you? I know what the Word of God says and if you're not doing the things that the Word of God says, it doesn't matter what you believe, you're wrong. And I'm not trying to be harsh but I am trying to be harsh because many, many families have fallen apart because of this very thing. "No, I'm doing what God wants me to do "and you need to be left behind." [Jennifer] They forsake what He said in His Word. [Aaron] Yeah, and another quote in the book, I said-- In what book? In Marriage After God, yeah. I said, "Don't sacrifice your marriage "on the altar of, quote unquote, ministry." Like, "Oh, I'm doing ministry over here, "so my wife has to deal with it. "She's not gonna ever see me, she has no idea if I love her. "She gets the last bits of my energies "rather than getting the best of my energies "and being the thing that energizes me to do more ministry." It's so much more fruitful to do it the other way than leave them behind. And I just, I think that's my answer. [Jennifer] I think you've covered it really well. So well that I think we should move on to number six. Do you wanna read that one? [Aaron] Yeah, it's about me. Do you, Jennifer, struggle with trusting me? [Jennifer] Do I struggle with trusting you? [Aaron] Specifically speaking about porn, how can you battle thoughts, like the-- [Jennifer] So, I just have to say, I feel like we need to record a whole 'nother episode on this topic altogether because-- [Aaron] We've already done one but-- I know. We should probably do another one. Well, I have received, really, lately, a lot of wives messaging me about this very topic, about trust and rebuilding trust after finding out that your spouse has sinned against you, sinned, especially with pornography, and so, that just needs to happen, but it's not gonna happen this season, so I'm just gonna have to plant that seed and say, "Stay tuned." But just to answer this question, up front, for you guys. I don't struggle to trust you anymore, Aaron. Why? [Jennifer] I think it's because we've worked so hard on building that trust back up and it absolutely takes time. And because, in the beginning, there were times that I did struggle with doubt and fear, especially times that I know you were left alone while I was out running an errand or something like that. And you know what it required is humility and communication. Because I had to be willing to say, "Hey, I'm thinking about you right now and I just, "I don't want you to fall into temptation. "Just be strong, I'll be back at this time." Or when I got back, I would ask you, "Hey, how've you been?" And the more times that we had encounters where you continued to stay pure, it built that trust up in my heart. [Aaron] And then, specifically, along that journey, what did I do, anytime I did choose to get back into pornography? You told me and you repented and you shared with me your own frustrations over the struggle of sin that you had, but you owned it and you were real with me and-- [Aaron] And no matter how little the offense was. [Jennifer] No, and I knew that you struggled with shame and guilt and I knew it was hard for you to tell me. And you learned how to give me a place to respond when I was emotional over it because it makes, I mean, just thinking-- Without trying to control your response. Yeah, 'cause it just, it made me broken knowing that those things took place and I felt a lotta things and I thought a lotta thoughts. But I would say that the humility of you coming to me or me coming to you and the reconciliation process was so important. And when I say reconciliation, I mean we talked about it. Even if it took two and a half hours, we talked about it. We prayed for each other and we tried to affirm each other that we were gonna move forward. Right. And the, some of the, just the practical things is: first of all, it does take time and you should never expect your spouse to just flip a switch and be like, "Well, I'm gonna trust you again." 'Cause that's actually not even Biblical. It does take time to build trust. Now, forgiveness immediately is Biblical, but that doesn't mean immediately, "Oh, we're back to where we were." No, there's been broken trust and it takes time, it takes repetitive purity, right? And then, the other practical is: I made a commitment to tell you, to let you know. And here's the thing, is: the offenses, although they changed in size, relatively, the thing I did, I still confessed it to you and you were able to see the true repentance in me. And so, it's not like it was the same each time, it was less and less and less. But my continuing to come to you and say, "Hey, I made this choice. "Yeah, it was a split second, "but I chose it and I feel shameful about it "and I wanna repent to you because this is not who I am "and it's not who I wanna be and so, I need to tell you." 'Cause I've learned, through the Word of God and through experience, that the confession and repentance is one of the ways that God's given us to kill our flesh. My flesh hates it, it wants to hide in the darkness and keep its, it wants, my flesh wants to not be known because it feels icky and I don't wanna be seen for what I truly am. So, the being consistent and telling you the truth and not just waiting 'til you found out but actually coming forth and saying, "Hey, I made a bad choice." And calling it what it is, a choice, not minimizing it, not justifying it. Those kinds of things helped you trust that I was actually changing. And that I love you and that I don't wanna be that person and that I'm willing to tell you because I want you to know, for my sake, so that I can heal and change and repent and be repented of that sin. [Jennifer] Yeah, I appreciate you sharing all of that and the second part of this question is: how can you battle those thoughts? And I just am thinking back to all of the stuff that I used to struggle with because the sin that you chose to partake in were like seeds planted in my mind and heart for the temptation to feel insecure or unloved and fall into those traps where your mind is just going wildly crazy with the worst kinds of thoughts about you and of our relationship. And I would say that being vulnerable with those and still being willing to be in an intimate place with you where I can say, "Because you did this, I feel this way," or, "I'm thinking these things," and revealing those types of thoughts to you helped me battle them. Because I gave you the opportunity to affirm me and say, "No no no no no, I know I chose that "and I'm so sorry, but that's not who you are. "You don't have to be insecure because of what I did." And there was this back and forth of understanding each other that I think was really valuable. Right. And again, another thing that, for the spouse that has dealt with this and is dealing with it, the mistrust is a natural consequence for a sin. Yeah. Right? And so, we have to recognize that. And so, another thing that builds trust, from the offender's side, is, 'cause what happens is: I've confessed, we've dealt with that event, and then you are leaving somewhere and it's a time when you know I would, usually, in the past-- [Jennifer] You mean I flared up with anxiety inside my whole being? Well, but, no, if you say something like, "Hey"-- Oh. "I wanna encourage you to stay pure while I'm gone." The not truly repentant person would say, "Babe, babe, we already dealt with that, you don't need to bring that up." Oh, getting defensive-- Like, "C'mon, you don't trust me?" No, I should be totally humble and willing to be like, "You're right, thank you for reminding me "and be praying for me and I'm gonna let you know "if I feel tempted and I'm gonna call you and I'm gonna." Instead of being defensive and prideful, I'm gonna be humble and realize that it's totally natural for my wife to not trust me and she's gonna learn trust by how I receive her care for me in that moment. You reminding me, like, "Hey, don't go to that thing." Me receiving that is a trustworthy action, right? Yeah. Another way that I battled thoughts of mistrust was I asked a lot of questions. So, if I ever felt uneasy about a situation or discerning. You know, maybe I woke up from a dream or something where it was like I couldn't shake it, I asked. Or you just feel it. Like, "Hey, something's off." Yeah, I asked you. I asked, "Have you been struggling?" And so, I think that when we recognize that we're battling thoughts, you can't just keep battling them, you can't just keep, you're just gonna be wrestling the whole time, right? And so, being able to open up and share with your spouse the types of thoughts that you're having and also go to God and say, "God, these are "the types of thoughts that I'm having," and finding scriptures that would help fight those thoughts for you and-- [Aaron] Well, and also be praying and asking God to transform your own heart, asking God to transform your spouse's heart. To purify your marriage. Yeah, to use you both for His work and for His kingdom. [Jennifer] See, I told you that this was gonna be a big topic. I feel like we just-- There's a lot, there's a lot more, yeah. [Jennifer] We need to be able to do another episode on that. Yeah. All right, so the last question, it's kind of a bigger, blanket one. It'd be: What is your number one advice to couples who are currently struggling with this eye-to-eye thing? They're not on the same page, they feel at odds with each other. [Jennifer] Well, I will say this: one of the most powerful, impactful, incredible ways that God got ahold of our hearts, Aaron, and made change and transformation in our lives and our marriage was entering into mature, Christian, Biblical community and being transparent with people who we allowed to speak into our lives and say-- "You're off base, bro." But sometimes we didn't even see that we were off on that whole eye-to-eye thing and we got called out for it and so, like, bickering or whatever the thing was. And I just remember how, and even still to this day, it's been such a huge part of our testimony, is being in Biblical community and how being a part of the body, and I don't mean like a one day a week type thing, I mean immersed in it where you know you can text that person, call that person, meet them on the fly for dinner to gain wisdom, to ask advice, to cry about, to praise for, you know, all the things. [Aaron] So, the bit of advice I would give that goes in align with being a community, and it kind of, it's, I talked about it quite a bit in this episode, is humbleness. And in Luke 14:11, he says, "For everyone "who exalts himself will be humbled "and he who humbles himself will be exalted." And all through Proverbs, it talks about this idea of the humble will be lifted up and the haughty are God's opposed. To receive anything from community, you have to be humbled and willing to hear. Like, "Hey, I think you are being a bonehead, Aaron." Like, "Oh, you're right, I agree. "I didn't realize that, I need to change in that area, "I need to go apologize to my wife." So, that humbleness, and even outside of community, in your marriage, if you're in a difficult place, there's something miraculously, spiritually powerful about humbleness. All of these fights we get in, all of the eye-to-eye issues, it's all because they're not seeing our eyes, they're not on our page, which is pridefulness. When we could be like, "Maybe I need to be on their page." [Jennifer] Or humility would point your spouse's eyes up to God and say, "No, look at Him." Right. [Jennifer] "Don't look at me in this, look at Him." [Aaron] Or recognizing you're wrong or maybe don't know or don't have the answer or need to sit back and say, "You know what? "I'm just gonna, I'm gonna let you have this one because, "I mean, I know I've been wrong in the past anyways." It's not a false humility, it's true humbleness, recognizing who you serve, you serve God. And so, in community, which was the number one thing that we believe totally transformed our life, but it also took us, in community, being willing to listen and hear and receive, which takes humbleness. And time. And time, yeah. So, that would be my bit of advice, is: man, humbleness is gonna go infinitely farther than any level of selfishness or pride. [Jennifer] So, the next time, it could be today, tomorrow, next week-- [Aaron] It's gonna be right after this episode, probably. [Jennifer] If you are finding yourself in a place where you're not seeing eye-to-eye with your spouse, remember humility. Absolutely. Remember to pray. Remember to go to God and say, "God, what is it that you want? "'Cause I don't want to get in "the way of what you're doing." Yeah, "How can my response and actions "and attitude right now glorify you?" And that, man, it changes everything 'cause you're like, "Oh. "Yelling and throwing a dish at the wall "is not gonna glorify God right now." Or, "Telling my spouse that they don't know anything "or that they're wrong, those might not glorify God." [Jennifer] Well, that wraps us up for this episode of having answered your guys' questions. Thank you again so much for being there and submitting those questions when we called out for them. Yeah, appreciate it. And, again, if you wanna participate in a Q&A episode, all you need to do is follow @marriageaftergod on Instagram and wait for the next time we poll for 'em. And then you can submit your question and we try and get through as many as we can with the time that we have. And if we ever do an episode where you're like, "I know my question would've fit in there," and maybe we didn't get to it, just message us and let us know. But we just love hearing from you guys and we love participating in this way where we get to kind of answer your questions or at least try. [Aaron] So, as usual, we end every episode with prayer. So Jennifer, why don't you pray for us? [Jennifer] Dear God, thank you so much for marriage. Thank you for our spouses and thank you for the opportunity that we get every day to walk this life with each other. We pray for humility to be a priority in our lives, that we would walk humbly before each other, that we would be motivated by how you're moving in our lives individually and in our marriages. God, we thank you for our marriages and we just pray for unity. We pray that, even in times where we don't see eye-to-eye or we have disagreements or there's conflict, that you would remain at the center of our marriage and that we can submit our hearts to you. God, we pray that we would be one with each other, that we would pursue oneness in our marriage and support each other in that way. And God, we pray that these situations that come up in marriage where we don't see eye-to-eye would be an opportunity where we can learn from each other, where we can grow to understand each other, where we can experience intimacy. No matter what, we pray that your will would be done and that you would be glorified. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen. So, thanks for joining us on this week's episode. We love y'all, we thank you for being a part of the Marriage After God community. And we just wanna invite you, if you have not yet, would you leave us a review? We love your reviews, they help the podcast get reach, and new people find it because of your reviews. So, if you wanna leave us a star rating and a text review, we'd love that. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

In this episode, we answer questions for our community about having children, birth control, how many kids to have and more.Please also take a moment and download our free 52 Date Night Ideas eBook.http://datenightideas.com PRAYERDear Lord,Thank you for the gift and blessing of children. Thank you for creating and designing us with the ability to recreate, what an incredible miracle life truly is. We thank you for the opportunity to build our family and have children. We pray for others who either have not had children yet or in awaiting their first in anticipation. May you lead them in the way you desire them to walk and to grow together. We praise you for all those who have children and we also pray for those who can’t have children for whatever the reason may be. You are sovereign and we trust you. We continue to surrender our hearts to you as you lead us in parenting and raising our children to know you. Please help us with our fears and insecurities. Please remind us every day of the purpose we have with our family. May your name be glorified.In Jesus’ name, amen! READ FULL TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're gonna answer some of your questions about having children. - [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry onlinae for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - [Aaron] Love. - [Jennifer] And Power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chased boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Hey, everyone welcome back to another episode of Marriage After God. We're happy to be with you and we're really excited about this episode, and just being able to answer your questions. So doing Q&As is gonna be just an awesome new feature of the podcast where every couple of weeks, we're gonna poll our trusty community on Instagram and ask you guys what questions you have, and hopefully get some answers, well I should say opinions. - [Aaron] Yeah 'cause we have all the answers. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] On everything. - [Jennifer] We don't but you know what, we're happy to explore these questions with you. And so thank you to everyone who shared these questions with us, and specifically about about having kids which we have a little bit of experience with. And so we'll dive into that in just a bit. All right, so one thing that we really are excited to share with you guys is that we have a new freebie for all of you. - [Aaron] So everyone has already did the free prayer challenge. - [Jennifer] Right. - [Aaron] They already got the date night conversations. - [Jennifer] You better, we've been sharing about those two for a while. So I begged Aaron, and I was like, "Let's do something new. "We've gotta do something new." - [Aaron] So this one is date night ideas. It's a free download. It's a list of 52 date night ideas which you could do one a week for the whole year. - [Jennifer] So is this something we're committing to? We're gonna go through all of these and do them? - [Aaron] Sure. - [Jennifer] Let's do it. - [Aaron] Let's see how it goes. - [Jennifer] I think that would be so fun. - [Aaron] So if you wanna get this freebie, this download, you just go to datenightideas.com and you can download our free ebook with 52 date night ideas. - [Jennifer] And the goal is one a week but if you can't do one week, do three a week. It's fine-- - [Aaron] If you have to do one a day, you know what, you can get done faster-- - [Jennifer] Have fun with it. - [Aaron] And just do it all over again. - [Jennifer] Have fun with it. No, but you can use these whenever you want and you can even sift through them and pull from it. - [Aaron] You know what would be fun is if they downloaded this and then found another couple to do a challenge with. How many they can get done in a year? - [Jennifer] Interesting, the other thing you could do is print them out and cut them out and stick them in a jar and pull them out randomly. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] That would be fun. - [Aaron] That's a great idea. Datenightideas.com, one word and it's free. Go get it, so the topic we're talking about, these Q&As, they're all on a similar topic. We polled our followers on Instagram and many of the questions were around children. Having children, children after marriage. - [Jennifer] So we're like let's stick them all in one episode so we can hit them all at once. - [Aaron] And so we're just gonna, some of these we're gonna wing answering. If we don't have good answers, we might say we don't know. We're not afraid to say we don't know. - [Jennifer] And just keep in mind that these are just our positions on these questions. How we would answer them based off of our experience and knowledge and-- - [Aaron] And things that we know of the Bible. - [Jennifer] Things that we know of the Bible and what we believe in so-- - [Aaron] Take it for what it is. - [Jennifer] Yeah and thank you guys again for asking these questions and sharing them with us and we really appreciate that. If you wanna jump on board for the next Q&A, just follow along on Instagram @marriageaftergod. - [Aaron] And you can always send us your questions in a message and we may not answer it in the message but we'll take down the question and potentially answer it in a future Q&A episode. We'd love to get those from you. So why don't we just jump right in to the first question and this is a doozy I feel like 'cause it's controversial, it could be. - [Jennifer] It could be yeah. - [Aaron] And they ask us their question and they said, our view on birth control. - [Jennifer] So what's your view on birth control? - [Aaron] That's a good question. - [Jennifer] It's a big question. - [Aaron] Okay, next question is, no I'm just kidding. Our view on birth control. - [Jennifer] Let me share my point of view first. - [Aaron] Okay, go ahead. - [Jennifer] I'll just be honest. I went on birth control 'cause that's what I heard you do when you get married. And so I went on the month before I got married and I chose to go off of it a month after we were married. So I was on it for a total of two months and I got married at 21, you were 22. And we were so excited married and so excited to-- - [Aaron] Be with each other physically. - [Jennifer] Yeah, experience what sex was like and it was awful. I'm just gonna be honest. It was very painful for me and so I scrambled, you guys. I tried to figure out why is my body responding this way because it was my body that was keeping us from experiencing-- - [Aaron] Physical intimacy. - [Jennifer] Healthy, physical intimacy. And so one of the things that came to my mind was something that was super obvious because over the course of that month of being married, not only were we having these issues but I gained a lot of weight. I got acne. - [Aaron] There was a lot of things going on. There was emotional stuff. - [Jennifer] Emotional ups and downs and mood swings and it was awful and I didn't feel myself. And so the obvious question then is what happened in the last few weeks that has changed me? - [Aaron] Other than getting married. - [Jennifer] I know it's a big transition. - [Aaron] I that that guy you married can make you feel crazy, I get it. - [Jennifer] But we narrowed it down to birth control and so I chose to go off of it and I haven't regretted it. - [Aaron] And it didn't fix everything but it did actually drastically change your mood. - [Jennifer] And some of the physical things that I was-- - [Aaron] Some of the physical things you were experiencing. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] So that's an experience you had with birth control. We know tons of people use birth control. I also know that there is certain people that say birth control is a sin. I'm not gonna go that far. I'm not gonna make statements like that. What I will say is I'm not an advocate for opting to put a chemical in your body to adjust and manipulate how your body is naturally meant to work. So that's my, you're meant to do a certain thing. Your body has been created to do a certain thing and birth control is meant to stop that thing from happening, to manipulate the way your body responds to certain things and I don't think that's great. We have a lot of stuff going on this world. A lot of sickness, a lot of problems and for us to be healthy and to do something like that to our healthy body, I don't think is very wise, personally. - [Jennifer] So just to clarify for those listening, you're not saying that you won't put anything on or in your body that helps stimulate positive things to happen in your body. You're saying, you wouldn't do something that would stop the natural function of your body. - [Aaron] I'm saying I don't think it's a good idea to put something in our bodies electively to stop the natural. - [Jennifer] That alters the natural. - [Aaron] Yeah 'cause there's, again, I'm not gonna. The question is about all the other things that happen in this life, we know taking things when you're sick. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say there's supplements and there's oils and there's things that are out there. - [Aaron] Right, that's different than I'm gonna take this birth control to stop my ovulation so that we don't get pregnant. I'm not gonna do that. That's just my personal perspective on this. And to be honest, there's most things like medically that I'm a little hesitant on just because I like to stay mostly natural as much as possible. But this is about birth control. I'm just saying that taking a woman's body, putting something in it to stop her from doing what it's naturally meant to do doesn't sound wise to me. Now on the spiritual side of things, we have to always ask ourselves the question of why are we trying to stop ourselves from having kids? Why are we trying to protect against that? And there's tons of worldly wisdom that we receive on why we should wait and what, there's this and that. And don't you wanna travel? Why don't you establish your marriage first? And none of those things line up with the things that we hear about in scripture about children being a blessing. That it's good for women to have children. People prayed when they were barren because they wanted children and all these positive. It's positive, positive, positive but our generation and the last couple of generations has heard the message of negative. Children are a hindrance. Children get in the way. Children are difficult, they're expensive. They're hard, some of these things are all true. Not all of them but some of these things are true but not in the sense of they're not a blessings. Not in the sense of we shouldn't do it. I think we should always be asking ourselves about our heart posture towards children because God's heart posture towards children from the words of Jesus. "Let the children come to me", that's what he said. - [Jennifer] I love that, that's so beautiful. - [Aaron] Don't hinder the children. - [Jennifer] That's really good. I was gonna say that personally, we think that it needs to be thoughtfully considered not just in its physical impact on someone's body but its spiritual impact. And I think you just hit it on the head with being a heart posture. - [Aaron] Absolutely. - [Jennifer] And asking ourselves why. - [Aaron] Yeah and what do we believe about God? Is he good? Does it give us good things? And has he made us a certain way? And yeah those are all true. So we don't believe in birth control, the chemical form. I would say do any form of birth control, and we're about to have our number five so everyone can logically find out, we don't do birth control. We would probably lean towards just what's it called? The rhythm method? - [Jennifer] Natural planning. - [Aaron] Natural planning. And again, that's not even perfect. It's more of to our own abilities, we're just gonna try and plan around this and if God gives us a child, we're gonna be stoked. - [Jennifer] Yeah, all right let's move on to number two. Okay number two says, what made you wait to have kids? - [Aaron] Made us is a good word because half of it was physical. - [Jennifer] I was gonna say this is a two parter for us. - [Aaron] We just talked about how we couldn't have sexual intimacy. - [Jennifer] Yup. - [Aaron] So it was not impossible but highly unlikely 'cause it was . - [Jennifer] We weren't doing the thing that makes the babies. - [Aaron] Yeah, the thing that makes the babies wasn't happening so there was no babies being made. And then the second part of that is, and this might have been out of a bitterness because we couldn't be with each other. I have feeling that some of it was from that bitterness but also some of it just straight from our own selfish pride. We would tell people, they would ask us when are you guys gonna have kids? And we'd be like, oh we're not gonna have kids for a while or maybe ever because we're too selfish. - [Jennifer] We like sleeping in. - [Aaron] We like traveling. We like this, we like that. We said these things out loud. This isn't thoughts we had. - [Jennifer] And I would agree. Some of it was probably just to give them an answer 'cause we weren't gonna straight dig into well, we can't have sex. So we found a different way to answer it but I think at the core, we truly believe those things as well. We were selfish. - [Aaron] I remember I would pridefully say it like it was something to boast about. - [Jennifer] Looking back-- - [Aaron] You are too selfish. - [Jennifer] Looking back that's so embarrassing. - [Aaron] I know what a fool I was that I would actually say that. God's looking at me at like I know who you are. - [Jennifer] I love you Aaron. - [Aaron] I was like a little child to him and he's patient with me, thank God. But what a fool that I would just boast about my selfishness which is opposed to God, to be selfish. I was literally boasting about my opposition to God. - [Jennifer] I wanted to share a little bit about this question. What came to my mind is well the physical. We couldn't and the selfish but I was also really terrified of having children and I don't remember it being a super affirmed thing growing up. And even though I came from a big family, it wasn't like I had this dream to have a big family myself. - [Aaron] And it wasn't like children are good. Children are a blessing. All you saw was there's all of this chaos at home sometimes. - [Jennifer] Yeah, so I remember just being really scared about having children. And so I was actually okay with not having children for a long time if any. I didn't have a hearts desire to have children. - [Aaron] And I actually, now you bring that up. I remember specifically a thought I had and I had it regularly was I didn't want children because we couldn't be together. All I thought I was like yeah that would be so perfect. We'd get pregnant the one time we do come together and then now like we couldn't enjoy each other, and now we have a kid. This totally negative connotation on having children because it was just gonna get in the way of the thing I wanted. - [Jennifer] Yeah and I think we talked about that even back then. Something that I didn't talk to you about that I really struggled with was the thought that if in that turmoil, those first three years if we did have a kid how much more it would tie me to you which is really depressing and sad to think about. I just am broken-hearted over those kinds of thoughts now. - [Aaron] But that's when we were in our sinful hearts. - [Jennifer] But that's where I was and I didn't have hope in our marriage. I truly believe that we're coming to the end so it was like I have to make sure even more that I don't get pregnant which was avoiding you. - [Aaron] Which made the whole thing worse. - [Jennifer] Yeah, it was a mess, you guys. - [Aaron] The devil is good at what he does. And it's why we have to resist him and it's why we have to put on the full armor of God 'cause these thoughts and things will come if we're not focused right. - [Jennifer] Now I have a part of this question to ask you. It has to do with this question, that's not here but would you have waited if you could have sex? - [Aaron] Back then? Well probably 'cause again I had my selfish heart of I thought tons of horrible things. I was thinking about your body and I was thinking about our sex, and I was thinking about being inconvenience with now I have to raise a child, and we're doing all these things. So absolutely, I think back then, selfishly would have waited. Not because I thought it was wise but because I didn't want to have to deal with it. - [Jennifer] Okay and I was thinking more like answering now having had children. - [Aaron] No, I wished we didn't have waited. - [Jennifer] I like that you're answering really honestly. - [Aaron] No, if I knew what I know now. - [Jennifer] I wouldn't have waited. - [Aaron] We'd have a 13-year-old. - [Jennifer] That's weird to think about. - [Aaron] How incredible would that be? We'd have a teenager. - [Jennifer] Wow, lots more growth opportunities for us. - [Aaron] No, I wouldn't have waited at all but to be honest it's God's sovereignty. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] He knew who we were. Our sin kept us away from it and it's probably better back then because we had some maturing to do. Not that I'm telling anyone they should choose to wait. I just think God knew what he was doing and he let us through a lot of stuff to grow us and make us into the men and women he wanted us to be. - [Jennifer] Yeah, all right. Number three, do you think numbering your children is necessary? - [Aaron] Yeah, I'd give a 10 to Elliott and then like all if I give-- - [Jennifer] What are you talking about? - [Aaron] I'm just kidding. Numbering, I'm thinking like . - [Jennifer] That's not what they're asking. - [Aaron] Numbering, the question is about should we have one, two, three, how many should we have? - [Jennifer] I was gonna change the question to what we usually get is what number do you guys want or what are you looking for? Because we do get asked that. - [Aaron] Yeah and it's usually with this like are you done yet look. Do you realize how many you have? We know exactly how many we have. So the question is do you think numbering your children is necessary? And I'm imagining the heart but it is do you think it's important to consider how many children we're having? Should we only have one or two or three? That's a pretty common thought. Most of the time, it comes in the form of, we only one, two or three. That's where that comes from. So Jennifer, do you think it's necessary. That's how the question is phrased. - [Jennifer] No, I don't think it's necessary. I don't think that we need to have a set number and we personally don't have a set number. - [Aaron] Our answer when someone asks, how many do you want is whatever God wants. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] Because to be honest, I don't know. - [Jennifer] To couple with that though, I do think that there's wisdom in every situation and so what I like to say is we take every pregnancy as it comes. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Jennifer] Submit it to the Lord-- - [Aaron] And in between the pregnancies, we submit those to the Lord as well. - [Jennifer] Yeah, and you know what, it's a journey of walking with God saying God I trust you and it's not easy but-- - [Aaron] And I'll say this. - [Jennifer] He's doing this. - [Aaron] I'm gonna be a little candid here. There was a challenge after we had was it? - [Jennifer] Elliot. - [Aaron] Elliot and we went right back to that place in our hearts of we don't want any more. Elliot was difficult. It was our first child. - [Jennifer] He had colic. - [Aaron] He had colic for a couple months. - [Jennifer] I had nursing issues. - [Aaron] It was really difficult. And we just were like no, we can't do this any more. This is crazy, we are also-- - [Jennifer] Honestly-- - [Aaron] Publishing a book and we're thinking like how we're gonna do all this stuff and have another baby and everything was coming together. - [Jennifer] When I look back on it too, I don't remember it being a negative feeling. I just remember being okay with it being one. - [Aaron] We're like, we're fine. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] But again from all selfish positions. How are we gonna keep doing these things? That was too hard, I don't wanna do that again. And we were challenged by someone really hard and I'm gonna just explain to you what was challenging to us, and I'm gonna leave it at that. And they came to us and we were just sharing our hearts with them. And they very softly and gently said, you know the reasoning that you were coming to with this deciding not to want any more. And he brought up, is like it's usually for Christians, we say things like we want one, some or none. And it's like that sounds great. It sounds wise. One summer night, I'm gonna choose the size of my family. I think that's wise based off of whatever. Then they said that's very similar to the reasoning that pro-choicers have. It's your choice. Christians aren't gonna choose the abortion option right, hopefully. That's where the heart of a Christian shouldn't be that direction at all. We don't do that. But one, some or none is very similar and it's my choice. Pro-choice, I get to choose what I want. And he's explaining this to us and it cut us to the heart, and we realize wow, we're telling God, who's in charge of this area of our life. We want God to be sovereign in every area of our life except for this one. And so when they were explaining to us that we were essentially making decisions very similar to the idea of pro-choice. It's our choice and I want it to be pro-me whatever I want. And it really challenged us and it actually made us go and pray and dig into what we believed about children, and what we believed about our family, what God wants for us. - [Jennifer] I remember shortly after that conversation maybe even walking out of the restaurant, I told you that as I was sitting there listening, I could picture myself holding my hand shut tight and it was me as a Christian telling God, you are sovereign, you have every part of my life. I love you, lead me oh but you can't have this over here. - [Aaron] Don't touch this over here. - [Jennifer] And I was gripping it so tightly and I remember explaining this picture to you and just saying I feel like God wants me to open up my hands and trust Him. And I feel like we got pregnant about a week and a half later. - [Aaron] Yeah really quick. - [Jennifer] Really quick. - [Aaron] And I'll say this. It's easy to say, hard to do. Every single pregnancy we've had to go to God and say God, we need your help. We need to trust you more. We need to know what you have for us because it's difficult. Pregnancy is difficult. Children are difficult. It's just part of life so it's not like all of a sudden everything became rainbows and unicorns. It was like we have to trust God every single time which is what he wants. And then I'll say this as gently as possible 'cause I know the person that asked this question. I'm not trying-- - [Jennifer] There's a lot of people out there that asked. - [Aaron] There's a lot of people who have this question. I think the question is irrelevant and here's why I say that. You can say I want three kids and God only give you two. Is God wrong? Nope, I God bad? No. - [Jennifer] You could want two kids and never be able to conceive. - [Aaron] You could want one kid and never be able to conceive. You could want whatever you want. We could desire whatever we want. We can have this picture for our life and it's so perfect that oh if we just had a boy and a girl, you have six girls. I know people like that, okay. You could say lots of things. - [Jennifer] You can say you don't want any kids and then get pregnant. - [Aaron] We know people that are on birth control and I've gotten pregnant. We know people that have been barren for years. - [Jennifer] And have gotten pregnant. - [Aaron] And then have gotten pregnant. We know people that have had their tubes tied and then unfortunately have still gotten pregnant and had to have surgery because of the dangers of that. - [Jennifer] We also know the word of God and in Psalms when it talks about God knitting together a baby, a human inside a mother's womb, we know that's true. So it's from Him. - [Aaron] What we wanna do is we wanna say instead of asking well how many do we want? What's wrong with saying, God how many do you want? What do you want our family to look like? How do you want us to shape our family? You could say you want two children, right? And you have those two children and you stop, and there's no way for you to know that that third child was gonna be another Moses, another David. You don't know what God wants for you. So that's why I think that question is a little irrelevant because you think you have control. - [Jennifer] This is what the question should be. Do we trust what you have for us Lord? - [Aaron] Yeah and if that's a zero, and that doesn't mean that doesn't come with heartbreak but if it's zero, then God gets to choose that. If it's one, then God gets to choose that. Me and Jennifer are on number five and this could literally be our last child. We have no way of knowing. Something would happen. We could just not get pregnant again. Things happen or we could have another five. I don't know. But we want to trust the Lord with everything. I wanna encourage you to do the same. Whether that's zero, one, two, three, five, 10. That's the question we should be asking. Number four, what's the best way to prepare for or not be fearful of having a newborn? This is a good one 'cause we're literally right there. - [Jennifer] Yeah and you know what fear is a natural thing and it always comes with that feeling of I don't know what's on the other side of labor, or delivery, or having a newborn, and I struggled with all those fears. But when I look back and I think about my first baby, holding him in my arms, it's the most beautiful, miraculous thing I can think of. - [Aaron] And you don't necessarily look back and dwell on the pain. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] You know it's there. - [Jennifer] I know it happened. - [Aaron] You look back and we think about those-- - [Jennifer] The joy and the love and the incredible miracle that comes with having a child. And I think that we should also just note that this probably whoever asked this question is going to give birth to a baby but I think even for adoption. When you think of the other ways that people build their families. I think there's a lot of fear that comes. A lot of fearful thoughts that could come with the unknowns but we just wanna be an encouragement to you guys that you're not alone. God is with you and do everything in prayer. The Bible tells us to pray without ceasing, to pray constantly. - [Aaron] To pray for everything. - [Jennifer] To pray for everything and to be thankful. And so I think the first way that I would respond to this question is pray, and pray with your spouse. Pray together over your family and over every situation. - [Aaron] Present those fears to the Lord and say Lord, here's some things I'm afraid of. Give me peace, give me your peace. That's what he tells us to pray for everything. With thanksgiving, lift your request to Lord. - [Jennifer] And the other thing I would say is meditate on his Word. What does God say about children? What does God say about birth? What does God say about families? Things that comes to my mind is John 16:21. It says, "When a woman is giving birth, "she has sorrow because her hour has come "but when she has delivered the baby, "she no longer remembers the anguish "for joy that a human being has been born into the world." That's what I remember. - [Aaron] That's an awesome statement by the way. For joy that a human being has been born. That's so cool and it is true because the pain is real. It's a thing you get to experience. You can talk about that in a second about experiencing the pain but you remember the joy of that child, holding the baby, seeing their face for the first time hearing their coos for the first time. - [Jennifer] I know I said this. It's miraculous, it truly is. - [Aaron] Yeah and seeing them grow up is miraculous too. I can't imagine my life without any of these kids. - [Jennifer] I know and I feel so grateful that the Lord trusted me and gave me these gifts. It's so wonderful. Another verse that comes to my mind and something good to dwell on is Psalm 127:3. It says, "Behold children are a heritage from the Lord. "The fruit of the womb, a reward." - [Aaron] So preparing yourself for having a newborn is you're preparing to have a reward and to build a heritage that he's giving you. That's really cool. - [Jennifer] A good resource for becoming new parents, you should check out "Redeeming Childbirth" by Angie Tolpin. It was just a really good book to bring perspective to having children and what that looks like biblically. So if you wanna check that out just go to courageousmom.com. One last thing that I just wanna encourage you guys with, and this you can do prior to having your first baby but you should also be doing it throughout parenting, and that's just talking about those fears with your spouse whenever they come up. And using those opportunities to encourage one another. If the wife is afraid, the husband can go to the word of God and console her and comfort her and encourage her. If the husband has some fears and he's being vulnerable about them, she can encourage him through the word of God and through prayer, and I just think that is so vital for us to be one in the way that we are experiencing the same thing, right parenthood. And another thing you could do is find someone who you admire, who has experience that you can ask questions to. I know as a new mom, I had so many questions. I still have so many questions. And so finding someone who you can be in communication with even if it's just a quick text or if you can get into community with several people who you can have questions too, and really just have that support system. It's really important - [Aaron] Yeah and that actually leads into our last question, number five really well. This person asked us if we can talk about the best ways to invest in our spouse before having kids. - [Jennifer] Okay. - [Aaron] Which is a cool thing because we could have done this. - [Jennifer] I know we did this for, no, we should have been doing this for years. The first thing that comes to my mind is having regular date nights and when you don't have kids and you're married, it can be so easy to just make everything feel like a date because you're with each other but making it significant somehow. - [Aaron] Getting it on the calendar, making it a regular occurrence. - [Jennifer] And doing something out of the norm, right? So like if you guys regularly already do something together, don't consider that your date. Go do something else. - [Aaron] Yeah, and what's good about that is it puts you into a really healthy pattern and habit so that after the kids, you guys will long and be like, hey, we need to get back on track. - [Jennifer] Not after the kids are grown and raised, you mean after having kids. - [Aaron] I'm saying after six weeks of healing and getting better. You guys are like, hey, we need to get back on schedule with our date nights, that's important. And for awhile, you're gonna have the baby with you and then eventually you'll get a baby sitter. But you start that up and it's there. It's existing. - [Jennifer] And just to encourage you guys, we've gone on dates with babies before and it can be done. - [Aaron] Just find those restaurants that-- - [Jennifer] Are really loud. - [Aaron] Either really loud or mostly full of older couples 'cause they love seeing young couples with their babies. - [Jennifer] Most of the times. - [Aaron] Most of the times. - [Aaron] Some restaurants don't like it but the experience we've had, we have people come up and be like, oh, your baby's so wonderful. This is so cool seeing a couple with children now. Anyways that's a good tip. For the husband's preparing your spouse before kids just doing what a Ephesians five says, "Washing your wife with the Word." Continually speaking God's truth into her life over her reminding her what the word of God says, reminding of her of who she is, what she's capable of, how God made her and building her up because those are the things that are gonna continually give her confidence. Make her feel like she can be a mom that she can handle pregnancy and labor and that she is going to be a victor in that area. So it's immensely powerful the words that a husband speaks over her life which is why we're commanded to wash our wives with not any words but the Word. With God's Word, reminding her of who she is, what God's doing in her life. That the thing that she's going to do. Having a child is such a powerful and beautiful thing that as she disciples that child, she's literally making world changers. Growing the Kingdom of Heaven within your home. It's a powerful thing. - [Jennifer] That's awesome, I love that. Another thing that I would say and this is something to continually do throughout your marriage, but to get really good at it is practicing transparency. Aaron and I talk about this a lot and it's something that I feel like we were actually pretty good at in our marriage but could have been even better way sooner at, and that's just being transparent and honest with one another when you're struggling with sin. You confess that you repent. When you're wrestling with insecurities or doubt or frustrations, you talk about it and you find a way if you're at conflict with one another, you reconcile. All those really important-- - [Aaron] Getting better at those things. - [Jennifer] Communication things. - [Aaron] Which will be huge for your children to see and to benefit from. - [Jennifer] And your parenting because there's gonna be a lot of situational things that come up that you'll have to be transparent with one another in and talk about so that you're on the same page when you parent. - [Aaron] Which leads into the other thing, and this is hugely important. Overcoming sin and bad habits. So for the husbands, if you guys are struggling with pornography, and you think it's just like not a big deal. And you're like, oh it's every once in a while. Just realize what you do, you're gonna teach your children. And I wish I would have known that earlier. I wish I would have recognized the the magnitude of walking in what I saw as hidden sin or things that I was getting a handle on. But it's just every once in awhile, it's not that big of a deal, minimizing those things. Maximize them, take those things in your life and say no, I need to get this out of my life. I'm not gonna smoke any more. I'm not gonna show my kids that habit. The way I eat. The hidden sins of my life, pornography. The way I talk. If you have issue with bad language. Those are things that you're gonna teach your kids and so work on it. Confess them, find freedom from them. Walk in the freedom that Christ has already given us on the cross and walk in it so that you can teach your kids to walk in it. The same freedom. - [Jennifer] Have authority in their lives. - [Aaron] Yeah as a pastor once told me, purity is power. Walking in purity is powerful. Say that last line right there, babe. - [Jennifer] I just put a note on here. Have children, because the question was how do you invest in your spouse before having kids. - [Aaron] Which can be-- - [Jennifer] It could be any range of things. It could maybe you're already pregnant and you're just waiting for the baby to come but it could also be we chose not to have kids right now, so what can we be doing? Well I'll tell you what, if there's one thing in Aaron's and I life that has stimulated growth in our relationship-- - [Aaron] That God's used to sanctify us in huge ways. - [Jennifer] Absolutely, or to just grow closer to each other in opportunities in ways that we never would have known or experienced, it was through having children. And so I've really appreciated that about our journey and where we've been, and so hopefully that just encourages you guys. - [Aaron] Those are five questions that we received from the community. Again we're not the end-all be-all to these answers but we try the best of our ability to look at the word of God, to look at experience and see how God is trying to change the way we think about things. - [Jennifer] I'll say this, answering the questions is not easy for me. I'm a peacemaker and I don't wanna ruffle anyone's feathers or ever put things out there that make people feel uncomfortable, but at the same time I want you guys to know where Aaron and I are on some of these topics because you're you're listening in, you're following us. And for whatever reason, God has trusted us with an opportunity to share these with you. And so I hope that through our experience and through the things that we have shared with you today, if anything, you get to go back to the table with your own spouse and talk about them, and share your own perspectives, and thoughts behind them. And we just encourage you to, like Aaron said, get in the scriptures and dive into what God has to say about these and let that be the foundation for what you believe and your your viewpoints and your perspectives on some of these topics. - [Aaron] 1 John tells us to test every spirit and to discern. So don't just take what we're saying as pure gold. Go yourself to the word of God and find them out. But if you're not willing to go to the word of God, and you just wanna disagree and have your own opinion, you have to understand something that we're not called to just do that. We're called to trust the word of God. And so I wanna challenge you if you are in that place, go to word of God. Take the things we've said and go dig in. Find out what God thinks about all these questions. What God thinks about children in the womb and raising children. You find out for yourself and come up with your own conclusions based off of what the word of God says, not off of what we say. But we love you, and as always win in prayer so please join us. - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, thank you for the gift and blessing of children. Thank you for creating and designing us with the ability to recreate. What an incredible miracle life truly is. We thank you for the opportunity to build our family and have children. We pray for others to either have not had children yet or are in waiting their first in anticipation. May you lead them in a way you desire them to walk and to grow together. We praise you for all those who have children and we pray also for those who can't have children for whatever reason maybe. You are sovereign and we trust you. We continue to surrender our hearts to you as you lead us in parenting and raising our children to know you. Please help us with our fears and insecurities. Please remind us every day of the purpose we have with our family. May your name be glorified in Jesus' name, amen. - [Aaron] Amen. And guys as always, I just wanna invite you to leave us a review, a star rating. We love those. They're incredibly powerful and effective in spreading the word about the podcast. We love you all and we pray that you guys would just grow closer to God and you chase his will for your life and get his heart on the matter of children. See you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Join the movement! https://marriageaftergod.comQuote From Marriage After God Book“As men and women, husbands and wives, marriages that claim the name of Christ, and desire to walk in His will and His ways, we must never forget that our Lord and Savior is coming back for us, His bride, and He will do so in a miraculous way. While we are waiting for His return, we must let this knowledge of His testimony and second coming be the fuel that ignites in us an unquenchable fire to boldly chase after God’s will for our marriages. The beautiful and imminent return of our King is the very thing that motivates us to move beyond our comfort into the amazing, extraordinary, powerful, world-changing, “good works” that God has prepared for each one of us since before time began.”PrayerDear Lord, We pray we would never stop chasing boldly after You! As husbands and wives who love you, our prayer is that we would impact this world and build your kingdom for your name sake! Thank you for equipping us and empowering us through your Holy Spirit to do all of the wonderful works that you have for us to do so that your will and purpose is fulfilled. We love you Lord! We praise you and we glorify your name! May our marriages reflect your divine love and May your gospel be spread! We pray our hearts would be sensitive to your leading as you show us the ministry work you have for our marriages to accomplish. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ TRANSCRIPT- [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. - [Aaron] And today we're in Part 16 of the Marriage of the Marriage after God series, and we're gonna be talking with Kyler and Kayla Christiansen about chasing after God together. - [Aaron] Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, Where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just Happily Ever After. - [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. - [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. - [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. - [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. - [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. - [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. - [Jennifer] We believe that Christian Marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. - [Aaron] Love. - [Jennifer] And power. - [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. - [Jennifer] Together. - [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. - [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. - [Aaron] So, before we get into the interview, we always want to invite you to leave a review for the podcast, and we love reading those. So if you want to leave a star rating, or a text review, or both, that would be awesome, we'd really appreciate that. - [Jennifer] Also, we want to encourage you guys to check out our store, shopmarriageafterGod.com. The series today is based off of our book, Marriage After God, so go grab your copy today. - [Aaron] So, this is the last episode in this series, and if you haven't been excited yet to get the book, please get it today. This is our newest book, we're super excited about it, we wrote it for you, so go to shop.marriageafterGod.com and pick up a copy of Marriage After God. - [Jennifer] Okay, so today we have Kyler and Kayla, good friends of ours, and we just wanna give you a minute to introduce yourselves, let everyone know who you are, how long you've been married, - [Aaron] How we know you. - [Jennifer] How we know you, how many kids you have. - [Kyler] Yeah, so I'm Kyler, and this is my wife-- - [Kayla] And I'm Kayla. - [Kyler] Yeah, we've been married for just under four years, will be four years in... July. We have two kids. Our son, Luke, will be three soon. And our daughter, Ella, is one and a half, and we have a baby on the way-- - [Aaron] Woo! - [Kyler] --in April. Yeah. - [Kayla] Too many. - [Aaron] Number three! - [Kyler] Yeah. And so, yeah. Well, three kids under three. I'm a firefighter paramedic. My wife... - [Kayla] I stay at home. I'm a stay-at-home mama. - [Aaron] Big job. - [Kayla] I get to be home with the babies. Yes. - [Aaron] You put out fires at home. Yes. - [Kayla] Hopefully there's no fires. - [Jennifer] No. - [Aaron] Good point. - [Kyler] Yeah. So we met you guys, you can tell the first time we met them. - [Kayla] Yeah, do you want us to tell-- -how we met you guys? - [Jennifer] Yeah, it's a fun story. - [Kayla] This was when we were just married for I think, just a couple years. - [Jennifer] And Luke was a baby. - [Kayla] And Luke was a baby, yeah, he was only six months old. And we had been following you guys, I had been following you for quite a long time, even before I'd gotten married, but Kyler had just started following you, Aaron. - [Kyler] Yeah, on Husband Revolution. - [Kayla] And then we were out at breakfast one morning, and we saw you guys walking, and I was like, "Hey, there's Jen Smith!" and, like. "There's Jen and Aaron Smith." - [Kyler] I was like, "Who's that?" - [Kayla] "Who's that?" And he wasn't quite sure who you guys were. And then I was like, "It's Husband Revolution from... "Instagram, and it's the Unveiled Wife," and he was like, - [Kyler And Kayla] "Ohhh!" - [Kyler] "Them! Let's go say hi!" Yeah. I was really nervous. - [Aaron] I know, we were with our kids, I don't remember if we were fighting, or something. - [Jennifer] Oh, gosh, I hope not. - [Aaron] I know, I just remember, like, when we left, I was like, "I hope we weren't fighting or something." - [Jennifer] Well, I think that always goes through our head when we meet people we don't know in public. - [Aaron] That's true. - [Jennifer] And they stop to say hi. It makes me even more nervous when people don't stop to say hi, and we hear them after the fact, "Hey, I saw you at this place," 'cause I just go, "Oh, no, were we acting up?" - [Aaron] Yeah, "How were we?" - [Kayla] You were really pregnant with Wyatt. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Kayla] I want to say you might have even been overdue. - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] Oh, I think you were. - [Kayla] Mhmm. So we decided to go-- - [Kyler] Well, we already had read your books, 31 More Prayers for my Wife and 31 Prayers for my Husband. And we, I wanted to just thank you guys for-- - [Jennifer] Aww! - [Kyler] --how we were walking through that, and how much that helped us. - [Kayla] Yeah. - [Kyler] And Kayla was super nervous, and I was like, "Well, let's just go tell 'em thank you, "'cause it's been so good," and so, Kayla was nervous, and I was way excited, and we went up and said hi, and... just normal people. - [Jennifer] You guys were so sweet. It was so fun to meet you. We walked away just encouraged that day, I remember. - [Aaron] We always get encouraged when we meet new people, 'cause we do a lot of things online, actually, everything we do's online, essentially. - [Jennifer] But it's basically just Aaron and I, we get to see each other in our bedroom, doing it. - [Aaron] And people message us, but it's not the same when we meet people in person. We're like, "Oh! There's real people on the other side "of the social media stuff." - [Kyler] Yeah. - [Aaron] So that was encouraging, and, look at us, we're, like, friends now. - [Kyler] I know, I never thought we'd be going to church and walking in fellowship like we are now. - [Aaron] Yeah, for those that are listening, they also, they're a part of our fellowship. That came later, and we'll get into some of that, and how we got connected like that. But now we get to fellowship with them weekly, and we get to walk with them as we raise our kids, as they raise their kids. And it's just such awesome stuff. So, thanks for introducing yourselves, we're gonna get in some questions. - [Jennifer] But first and most important-- - [Aaron] Yeah, but before any of those, we're gonna do the icebreaker. We always do an icebreaker question. They're always, like, fun, lighthearted. Why don't you read it? - [Jennifer] So it's, "How would you describe your spouse in the morning, using only one word?" - [Kayla] I would say Kyler is "snuggly." - [Jennifer] Aww! - [Aaron] Oh, I like that. - [Kayla] So, he's either snuggling me when I wake up, or after we wake up and we let the kids come out of their room, we're snuggling them, and it's always him that initiates it. He's just snuggly. I think he could stay in bed and just snuggle-- - [Aaron] Snuggle all day? - [Kayla] Yeah. Uh-huh! - [Kayla] It's really sweet! He just wakes up snuggly. - [Aaron] And for those of you who don't know what Kyler looks like, he's a big, strong guy. And I love that she's using the word "snuggly" for him. - [Kyler] Yeah. - [Kayla] It's so true, though, he's snuggly. - [Kyler] Yeah, well, being a firefighter, like, I've really cherished being at home, so, times I do get home, I wanna snuggle. - [Jennifer] That's cute. So, Kyler, how would you describe Kayla in the morning? - [Kyler] So the word I came up with is, "driven." - [Jennifer] Oh! - [Kyler] 'Cause Kayla will let me snuggle her, but when it's time to get up, she's like-- - [Aaron] "Let's go!" - [Kyler] --ready to get up, making the bed, making food, and I'm just kind of-- - [Kayla] Slower in the morning. - [Kyler] I wanna snuggle! - [Jennifer] So, it sounds like early in the morning, right from the start, you guys are learning how to compromise and complement each other. - [Kyler] Yeah! - [Kayla] I think so, mhmm. - [Aaron] Kayla, learning when to slow down, Kyler learning how to speed up. - [Kyler] Yeah, no, it's good, because I need to get out of bed. If Kayla didn't drag me, I'd just be, like, in bed until, like, ten or something. - [Aaron] Just relaxing? Yeah. - [Jennifer] Awesome! Well, thank you guys so much for sharing that. Okay, so, moving on, we're gonna share a quote from this chapter of Marriage After God-- - [Aaron] Which is the last chapter of the book. - [Jennifer] Yes, and we're super excited to, kind of wrap up this series, but I'm going to share that, and then we'll kind of get into some more questions. So, Chapter 16, which is "Chasing After God Together," it says, "As men and women, husbands and wives, "marriages that claim the name of Christ "and desire to walk in His will and His ways, "we must never forget that our Lord and Savior "is coming back for us, His bride, "and He will do so in a miraculous way. "While we are waiting for His return, "we must let this knowledge "of His testimony and second coming "be the fuel that ignites in us an unquenchable fire "to boldly chase after God's will for our marriages. "The beautiful and imminent return of our King "is the very thing that motivates us "to move beyond our comfort into the amazing, "extraordinary, powerful, world-changing 'good works' "that God has prepared for us... "that God has prepared for each one of us "since before time began." - [Aaron] So cool. - [Jennifer] Is everybody ready? Like, I'm so excited, I cannot wait for Jesus to return. - [Aaron] Yeah, well, and it's, this is why we wrote the book, is to just ignite in all of us this idea that we have a mission in this world, and God's coming back for His church, us. And so that's what we're doin', we're trying to inspire Christians, say, "Hey, guys, let's get off our bottoms, "and let's go chase after God together, "let's go chase after His will in this world." I'm so excited. So, Kyler, Kayla, you guys, after we met that afternoon, or that morning, for breakfast, a few weeks later, we launched our Gathering, where we were inviting 12, 13 couples to come and gather, here in Sisters, Oregon, and you guys actually signed up for that-- - [Kyler] Yeah. - [Aaron] right after we met, and I was like, "Hey, that was the couple that we just met! "They signed up for The Gathering." And so, you got to participate in that. That was the catalyst for this book, was that Gathering, and all the stuff we talked about there, and the fruit we saw in that, and the testimonies we got out of the marriages that gathered there that weekend. And so, why don't you share a little bit of perspective and how that was, being a part of that Gathering? - [Kyler] Well, starting off, it was just being completely obedient to God, because... I remember, when we saw on Instagram, you guys posting and advertising for the retreat, or the Gathering, and Kayla and I both like, "Wow, that's so cool, that's the people we met, "that would be really awesome." - [Kayla] Mhmm. - [Kyler] And, but we were planning on going to Hawaii that summer. - [Aaron] Oh, really? - [Kyler] Yeah. - [Kayla] We were. - [Jennifer] Hawaii was your other choice, and you chose us? [Kyler And Kayla] Yeah! - [Aaron] That makes me feel so good! - [Kyler] Well, we definitely had to resist our flesh on it, because, at first, we're like, "Oh man, let's go to Hawaii, "or, you know, this retreat." Not that it was, like, the price of Hawaii or anything, but we had to choose one or the other. And so we thought about it for a couple days, and then, I remember we both got into bed one night, and were like, "I just feel like "we need to go to that retreat," and you said the same thing. - [Kayla] We knew that we needed to go, and it was-- - [Aaron] Wow. - [Kayla] --regardless of, if it was going to be worth it or not, or comparable to Hawaii, we knew it wasn't going to be comparable, but we knew that we needed to go and just were called to it. - [Kyler] Yeah, and my flesh, after we decided, my flesh was like, "Well, it better be like Hawaii." - [Aaron] This better be better! - [Kyler] It's gotta be better, or, you know, setting the expectations in my mind of what it was going to look like, instead of just being obedient to seeing whatever God wants to teach us. Which, little did we know at that time, it was going to be the most pivotal, life-changing thing we had ever gone to. - [Aaron] Wow. - [Jennifer] Okay, share that, why would you say that? - [Kyler] We learned a lot. - [Kayla] We did. - [Kyler] And learned a lot that I think we came from both backgrounds where... We believed the Bible... The checkbox of, "Do you believe in the Bible?" We both would say, "True, that's true," and we'd believe it, but we both didn't know how little we knew about it. And knew... what we needed to do, how we needed to live our life from it, or just let it have authority over our life. And I feel like that was one of the biggest things we got from the retreat, was submitting ourselves to God's Word. 'Cause that's, during the retreat, there's a lot, it was a really good experience. It was fun, there was good food, and... - [Kayla] Fellowship. - [Kyler] Fellowship. - [Aaron] Yeah, there's cool people. [Everyone] It's beautiful, it's really beautiful. - [Kayla] It was really pretty. - [Jennifer] Different from Hawaii, but-- - [Aaron] Yeah, still. - [Jennifer] But it was beautiful. - [Kayla] So beautiful. - [Kyler] Yeah. And so-- - [Kayla] Well, it just challenged us to look at our lives through the lens of the Word. Our marriage, everything. We realized how much we weren't basing our lives off of the Word, and just on our own opinion, or what felt right, and what little we truly actually knew about the Bible. - [Aaron] So, you had this picture of your marriage, like, "Oh, we understand certain things, this is how things go, "and so we're going to do it over here, "and then our faith in Christianity "and the Bible's over here," but then you realized, like, "Wait, there's a disconnect, actually." - [Kyler] Mhmm. - [Kayla] Totally. - [Aaron] So, you're at the retreat, you're kind of being challenged with all of these things, you were supposed to be in Hawaii on a vacation. And, you know... What kind of chain reaction did that start in you guys, in your marriage, in how viewed what God was doing in you and through you? - [Kyler] Reeling back to that, my other thought, was just that going to the retreat, it was good because it wasn't just what your guys's opinion was. Everything was a lot more scriptural-based than I thought it was gonna be. And it wasn't what you guys thought a good marriage should look like, it was what the Bible said a good marriage should be, and so we wanted to, you know, everything's subjective. And, "Oh, this is a good marriage, "this is what it should look like," versus what God thinks it should look like. And so that really challenged us and convicted us in wanting to have a marriage after God, not our own, what people want, you know. - [Aaron] Wow. And so, did you guys leave from there with, like, "Oh, this is some things we're gonna "start chasing after today"? 'Cause we're talking about chasing after God, this idea of, before you were chasing after whatever your opinion was of life and marriage, and now you're, "Welp, now here's our direction." What did that start out like? - [Kyler] Started off, first, reading the Word. - [Kayla] We needed to read our Bibles. - [Kyler] It's so funny how I could go back and look, like, "Oh, yeah, I believe in the Bible, I think I know what it says," but actually, I have no idea what it says. And so, living out, to actually do what God says, we have to know what it says. So, practically, that looked like reading our Bibles. - [Kayla] Just as simple as that. - [Kyler] Daily, regularly, and seeing what God has to say for that. Unity was a big thing that you took from it. - [Kayla] Yeah, we learned to become unified in all areas, and that it is a conscious choice to choose to be unified as one in His Word and everything that He calls us to do. I think it also encouraged us to remember that our marriage is our first ministry. That was huge, that was a really big takeaway. Where we knew that we didn't need to focus on these big dreams that we had, or different ministries that we thought we needed to be involved in. We needed to focus our hearts on each other, being good husbands and wives. And moms and dads, too. Our marriage and our family is our first ministry. - [Kyler] Yes, that was super convicting, was that our marriage is our first ministry. I think, going to the big church, we were going to a megachurch at that time, and, you know, they define ministry as, "You can be a parking lot attendant," or, you know, one of the things I was looking into was being like a, helping with the medical side of, you know, being there on a medical response team if someone had a medical event. But that separated marriage from ministry, instead of realizing that the Bible says marriage is your first ministry, and that all authority comes from your example. And like, I thought, "We have a horrible marriage, "and I'm trying to go do a different ministry in some other aspect, but my marriage is failing?" Like, that's just a testimony that something's not right, that we're not operating how God calls us to be. So that was really good for us, to be able to say, "This is our first ministry, let's focus on each other. "Let's focus on what God wants for us "and pursue him together." - [Jennifer] That's so awesome. And, you know, we touch a little bit about exactly what you're saying, about the ministries within a church, in Marriage After God, and we kind of, we wanted to bring it up to encourage couples to understand that those positions and those... - [Aaron] Those categorical ministries that you would find in most churches. - [Jennifer] Are necessary and good, and Christians have been helping churches thrive because of those, and so those are good things. But, just like you're saying, if your marriage is not working, if your marriage is in contention and conflict and you guys aren't reading the Bible, and you're not walking together in unity, how that will actually affect those other ministries that you are a part of. So I'm glad that you brought that up and touched on it. So, I wanna go back really quick, 'cause you had mentioned being a part of this retreat, Gathering, that you walked away saying, "We gotta get in the Word of God." How does that look for you now, practically? So give our listeners some... ideas on... your schedule and, you know, how you incorporate-- - [Aaron] Yeah, how do you guys stay in the Word of God now? - [Kyler] Yeah, so, I work a rotating schedule, so every day, every week looks different, I work 24 hours on, 48 hours off. Sometimes I have overtime where I work extra days. So prioritizing the Word looks, when I am home, we do family Bible time with our kids. So we'll read one chapter a day. - [Aaron] Hashtag: #familyBibletime! - [Jennifer] Yeah! - [Kyler] Yeah, we're workin' through Genesis right now, and we prioritize whether, it's during breakfast time, normally, whether we're eating breakfast, or just after, we do that as a family. And then we also prioritize in our works, by ourselfs, so, during naptime, when I'm away, Kayla will be in her Word when the kids are sleeping, and when I'm at work. I read my Word right before I go to bed, because that's normally the time that I'm not super busy with lots of things. But then, also, we've just started getting into the habit of washing Kayla over in the Word at nighttime, also. So, when we're going to bed, I just let her close her eyes, and I just read from the Word, and just read to her. - [Aaron] That's so cool. And romantic. - [Jennifer] That's beautiful! - [Kyler] Yeah, and so, like, we've been going through First John. I've probably read First John to her, like, probably 50 times, honestly. - [Kayla] Well, I've gone through the Bible study with you guys, too, so. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Kayla] It's good to go over. - [Kyler] Yeah, but each night, we'll just go, I'll go through the whole book of First John, or I'll just go through a chapter and read it a couple times. And just let her listen to it. And so, that's been really beneficial. - [Jennifer] Awesome, and Kayla-- Awesome, could you share a little bit about what your routine with the Bible looks like? - [Kayla] Yeah, so I definitely try and prioritize naptime. Naptime, when the kids go down, I try to make sure that I'm not on my phone, first, I don't look at it, and I try to stay off of it until I've actually read my Word. It's had to be a discipline that I've-- - [Aaron] I know, it's always like-- - [Kayla] It's hard not to grab your phone, and be like, "Oh, I'll just scroll for a second!" No. I have to put it down and choose to read His Word first. - [Jennifer] Okay, so, being mom at home with littles, and being a firefighter, Kyler, how do you guys prioritize each other and cultivating that friendship, that intimacy, that relationship that you guys have? - [Kyler] Yeah, so, before we got married, we were in a long-distance relationship. Starting off, when we first met, six months, we lived 20 miles away from each other. Then Kayla moved and lived in Boise, which is 360 miles away, so we're used to, when we were together, being really intentional with the time that we had, which, I'm glad we went thought that, because that's exactly how we are now. So, the times that I am home, I'm just really intentional and prioritizing the time that we do have. And then we also have a date night that we schedule, regularly. - [Aaron] So it's on the calendar. - [Kyler And Kayla] Yes. - [Aaron] And whether or not you can make it happen that week, it's still on the calendar so that it's visible. - [Kyler] It's there, yeah, and so we make sure that, we're lucky to have family in town that can watch our kids, and we prioritize being together and going out for the night. - [Kayla] Yeah, and when it doesn't happen, we definitely feel the need to get back to it. We need to have a date night. - [Kyler] Yeah, it's like, "It's been a week and a half!" We gotta do something! - [Kayla] Have a date night. We also do Jeremy and Audrey Roloff's Navigator's Council. - [Aaron] Oh! - [Jennifer] Oh, awesome. So that's a weekly thing? - [Kayla] Yeah, it's a weekly thing. And we've really enjoyed that. We just started that this year, 'cause we actually got it in the gift basket that you guys put together for the Gathering. - [Jennifer] Oh, right. - [Aaron] Oh, yeah! - [Kayla] So I pulled it out, and I was like, "We could go through this." Yeah. - [Kayla] So, we've been going through that, and it's been, it's been good for us to go through intentional questions each week. - [Kyler] Regular check-in times, yeah. - [Kayla] Mhmm. It's been good. - [Aaron] I love that. We should do that. - [Jennifer] Okay, so, could you guys share a little bit about how you guys serve God together, as a couple? - [Kyler] Well, I know God's placed in our heart that we do want to have our own ministry of what it looks like, just having, just testifying to what God's doing in our own lives, where that looks like an outreach. - [Kayla] Well, yeah. I think it's good to talk about that. We haven't really talked about it. It's almost like a little pipe dream of ours that we haven't shared with anyone. Is we do want to have a marriage ministry and just testify what we've learned, what the Lord has grown us through from your Gathering, from the church that we've been a part of, everything that we've learned. We realize how... impactful... just good, biblical marriages and families are. Our world needs good examples like that, and we want to be that example. - [Aaron] So true. - [Kayla] Yeah. - [Kyler] And we just wanna testify because it can be intimidating, looking at these large ministries, and looking at, thinking that you have to do, accomplish so much to get there, when it all starts with just being obedient with what you already have and obedient in your marriage and obedient with what the Bible says. And to get to those larger-scale things, or even the smaller-scale things, to be obedient to what God's calling you to, right in the moment, that's all it takes. And God will continue to give you more and build on your obedience in the moment. - [Aaron] Yeah, in the book we call it "saying 'yes' to God." And it sometimes feels like we're waiting for the big "yes," like, "Well, when you present me that big ministry, "or that big opportunity," or like you're saying, "Actually, "He wants us to say 'yes' to him right now." And so you guys may not have even, you know, figured out or recognize what God is asking you to do right now, but... what are you... waiting for? 'Cause right now, whether there's a title to it, or a way the ministry's gonna be done, do you have relationships in your life right now that the Lord might be wanting you guys to testify to and... encourage and walk with? - [Kayla] That's very true. - [Kyler] Yeah, I think that's why we've tried to focus so hard on managing what we have well, whether we're parenting our kids intentionally and making sure our marriage is on point, and walking close together, managing our finances well. - [Aaron] All important things. - [Kyler] All those important things. And we are open, and being able to serve the people that are around us, too, I think that's, it's easy to look and think that you want this big ministry, but we also realize how important our ministry is right now, and that is with the people that we're walking with, that's the people you see at the grocery store, it's the people around you. - [Kayla] It's with you guys. - [Jennifer] I was just gonna say, it's so true, because you've totally served our marriage, and our family, you know, bringing us meals after I had the baby, or, you know, there's been a lot of opportunities. We've seen you guys bless other people in the fellowship just by, like what you're saying, being faithful to what God's already entrusted to you, building up your family faithfully, and being willing to say "yes" to God even in those very small things. - [Aaron] Well, and we have these varying degrees of weights we use, like, we say, "very small things," but... we have no clue the kind of impact a simple encouragement can be to a brother or sister in Christ. An arm around a shoulder, an open home. - [Jennifer] A dinner to a postpartum mom. - [Aaron] Right? Like, these are the things that we're called to do in the Body of Christ. And chasing after God together and using what God's given us, like you said, the obedience right now with what we have right now, is how... all ministry is done. Nothing just starts off, boom, like at this level of whatever we want to gauge it as. It's by saying "yes" right now, and we all, you two, we all have a sphere of influence in our life that God wants us to influence for Him by being... honest and open and transparent and loving and kind, and pouring out the Word of God that we are pouring into ourselves, right? Overflowing to those people. So, an encouragement to you guys that you already minister to people, but to be thinking, like, how does God want you to minister to those around you now that you haven't yet, or maybe there's someone in your heart right now you're just thinking, like, "Oh, there's people that we should be inviting over, "calling, praying for, asking how they're doing." And so I love that you guys have just been, ever since we met you, like, chasing after God together, and not just trying to be something you're not, but trying to submit to who God calls you, you are. And you've, getting in the Word, and being a part of our fellowship, and just the consistency and the love you have for people and your guys's loving and kind demeanors, which is gift. 'Cause I don't have that, I have to work for that. I have more of a rough approach. But you guys have, like, a very soft... and gentle demeanor, just always. And I just-- [Kyler And Kayla] Thank you! - [Kayla] That's so sweet of you. - [Aaron] Yeah, well, and it's true! And that's a talent God's given you guys, and he wants you to invest that talent. He wants you to invest that. And you guys are, whether you know it or not, you are. And I just want to encourage you to keep doing it, and also to ask, "God, how do you want us to invest "the things you've given us today?" - [Jennifer] Cool, so, we started out this episode with a quote from the book that talks about the return of the King, Jesus. And so, how does the hope of Christ returning inspire your hearts to boldly chase after God and to do all that He invites you to do today? - [Kyler] For me, I instantly think to The Parable of the Talents. Thinking that, you know, God has given us things already, talents that we have, because he's coming back. And so, reminding myself that God is coming back and so it's not just things and blessings he's given us for us to just waste away on our own flesh and our own desire, but he's coming back, so we're held accountable of what we do with that, you know. And so we want to make sure-- That's inspiring, itself. With what we have already, I wanna manage that well. I want to manage our finances well, I want to manage my family well, because we're going to be held accountable. Which is encouraging, too, because it's not just... there's no point. - [Kyler] There's a huge meaning behind it. - [Kayla] And I would say, too, that it gives me hope that this life isn't the end-all, be-all. That we need to be faithful here because God's faithful to us, and that we're not gonna be just, here on Earth, and what we do does matter, for sure. And that He is coming back, and that's encouraging. There's hope just in Christ. - [Kyler] Absolutely. - [Aaron] I love that. Yeah, what we do matters. All of it. The little things. That's really good. - [Jennifer] I think it's good, too, I like, as you were talking, I was thinking circumstances, like, everybody, everyone listening right now, you guys, us, there are so many different kinds of circumstances and so many different kinds of hard circumstances that will tempt our flesh to feel deflated or feel like we're failing or feel afraid, and yet, we have this hope in Christ, and we have hope in Him today, and then we have hope in His return, and so I think that it's that hope that helps us persevere and overcome those hard circumstances. And hopefully those listening will be encouraged by that today, 'cause I don't doubt that there are a lot of people listening right now that are going through hard things, or maybe they're being invited by God to do something and their flesh is getting in the way. You know, maybe their insecurities are getting in the way, so just to be able to rely on that hope that what we do matters, and that Christ is coming back, and that we're held accountable. All of that is so good. - [Aaron] Yeah, I love that you brought up The Parable of the Talents. We talk about that in the book. And how... the master, Jesus, in this story, gave each one of His servants a set amount of talents, you know, or money, in that story, but it uses the word "talents." And each one of them, doesn't matter what they were given, they were given something. And that's the core message of the Marriage After God book, is that none of us... can say we're not needed in the Body of Christ. Not one Christian can say, "Well, there's enough people doing that one thing. "There's enough people doing that over there, "and I don't have anything special about me, "so we're just gonna sit back and bask." And if we're that person, we can be likened to that one servant that was given the one talent, and he buried it. And the master said to the servant, he's like, "What did you do with it?" He expected the same thing from all of us. And he's comin' back. And, a couple of things. I want to please my Master. I don't wanna please man, I don't wanna please you, my wife, you know, I mean, I do please you, but-- My main focus is pleasing my Master, pleasing Christ. And the way I do that... is being a good steward with the things He's given me, the life He's given me, the resources He's given me, the people in my life He's given me, my family, like you were saying, you know, I wanna steward my stuff well, because it's the example we show the world. And we don't wanna be the one who was given the one and buried it. - [Kyler] Well, that's what I was going to add is, unlike that parable, they say, "Okay, go and multiply it," but they didn't have any real, clear instruction. We have clear instruction. We have the Bible that is clear to show and say, "Do this." And that can seem intimidating, like, "I don't know what to do." Well, it's right there. We have the Bible. We have God's word. - [Aaron] Dude, that is good! - [Jennifer] That is really good. - [Kyler] So, do it! - [Jennifer] Yeah. - [Aaron] Yeah, that it's not just a, "Well, whatever I do is gonna, "who knows if it's gonna work?" No, actually, just invest what you have, based off of how the Word teaches us. That's good. - [Jennifer] That's really good. Okay, so, we're getting to the last question, which we've asked everybody in the series this question. It's been-- - [Aaron] And all the answers are unique, but so awesome. - [Jennifer] Yeah, so, there's no right or wrong here, it's just, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? - [Kyler] To us, marriage after God is committed faithfully to each other, serving God, and walking by His design. - [Jennifer] Mmm. - [Aaron] Love that. - [Jennifer] Concise. - [Aaron] Yeah. - [Aaron] Love that. All right. Serving God, walking by His design. Committed. That's good. All good words, and it's true. That's what a marriage after God is. We chase after what God wants, for His purposes, for His Kingdom, for His glory. And our marriages are just a tool in His hands. And that's what we want, we want to be a tool in His hands, to please him. So good. Hey, so, thank you for being with us today. - [Kyler] Oh, thank you guys. - [Kayla] Thank you guys-- - [Aaron] Friends of ours... - [Kayla] Your encouragement to us. Yes, we're so blessed by you and your ministry. - [Aaron] Thank you. - [Kyler] Absolutely. Well, and many people that are gonna be listening to this episode are gonna be blessed by your guys's testimony and your guys's faithfulness and your guys's desire to serve God. - [Jennifer] So thank you for saying "yes." - [Aaron] Thank you for saying "yes" to us, yeah! And yeah, so, before we close, we always wanna close in prayer, so Jennifer's gonna pray for us. - [Jennifer] Dear Lord, We pray we would never stop chasing boldly after You. As husbands and wives who love You, our prayer is that we would impact this world and build Your Kingdom for Your name's sake. Thank you for equipping us and empowering us through your Holy Spirit to do all of the wonderful works that you have for us to do so that Your will and Your purpose is fulfilled. We love You, Lord. We praise You and we glorify Your name. May our marriages reflect Your divine love, and may Your gospel be spread. We pray our hearts would be sensitive to Your leading as you show us the ministry work You have for us and for our marriages to accomplish. In Jesus name, Amen. - [Aaron, Kyler, And Kayla] Amen. - [Aaron] So, thank you everyone for listening to the last episode of our Marriage After God series. We hope you've been blessed by all of these interviews we've done, and our prayer, our hope, our desire in this book, in this series, in this podcast, is that you, the listener, and your spouse would know that God wants to use you, and he has a plan for you, and we don't, none of us get a pass on saying we're not valuable or needed in the Body of Christ. But that there's a ministry to be done, there's a mission to be accomplished, and it's serving God, it's preaching His gospel to this world, and we get to do that through our marriages, through our lives, and we get to use all of our resources, talents... history, everything for His glory. And so thanks for joining us, and we'll go back to our regular programming next week, and we'll see you then. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Join the marriage movement and order our new book today. Marriage After God. https://marriageaftergod.com Today we interview some old friends of ours who have been on a faithful journey with money and business together. They even host Dave Ramsey's Financial Peace University groups at their home to help others join their journey. Quote From Chapter 7 Of Marriage After God "The goal for every marriage after God is to build a healthy and biblical financial foundation so as to be good stewards and good servants with everything God entrusts to us." Quote from Marriage After God... “This may seem elementary, but often the simplest things produce the most powerful impact over a lifetime, and it is those very things that often get neglected.” *Dear Lord, Thank you for giving us the resources we need to accomplish the mission you have for us. Thank you for showing us in your word how to be good stewards with what we have. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives we would walk in wisdom when it comes to our finances. May we be on the same page in marriage, and may we communicate well with each other as we submit to you. We pray that we would not waste the things that you have given to us but instead we pray we would invest them for your kingdom. We pray that we would see everything that we have, our marriages, our children, our assets, our time, all of it, as gifts you have given us to steward well. Please help us to be an example in this world of how to live righteously. Help us to be an example to our children and to teach them your ways. Lord, help us to steward this life well for your namesake. In Jesus’ name, amen!* READ TRANSCRIPT [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today, we're in part seven of the Marriage After God series. And we're gonna be talking with Josh and Priscilla Millsap about being good stewards with our finances. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as UnveiledWife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as HusbandRevolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe the Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, [Aaron] love, [Jennifer] and power [Aaron] that can only be found by chasing after God [Jennifer] together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. Thank you guys so much for joining us this week. We just wanted to take a moment and just encourage you to leave us a review on the Marriage After God podcast. This is just a great way to get the message out there that the podcast is live and that this message is for every marriage. So we just wanted to ask you to go to the bottom of the app and just leave a star-rating review or a comment review. [Aaron] And also, we want to invite you, the whole reason were doing this 16-part series and all these interviews, is to talk about the Marriage After God book that we wrote together. It's how you can support this podcast, and we'd just love to get a copy in your hands. It's called Marriage After God, and you can go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and pick up a copy today. We'd love for you to get a copy. [Jennifer] So today we have Josh and Priscilla Millsap. Thank you guys so much for being with us today. Hi, you're welcome. Hey! Thanks for having us. [Jennifer] Would you just take a moment and just let everyone know who you are, how long you've been married, how many kids you have, what you do for work, that kind of thing? [Josh] Well, we are Josh and Priscilla Millsap. We are, let's see, it's gonna be 14 years here in June. We have four kids aging from 13 to four-- [Aaron] Wow, awesome. [Josh] And we do quite a few things when it comes to work, everything from our own business that is Pristine Solutions, where we do window cleaning, screen repairs, and few other little odd-end things as well, and then also I have an outside sales position with a company called Hunter Engineering. [Aaron] Awesome. [Priscilla] And I stay home, and I home school, and I help run the business, the window cleaning business as well. [Aaron] Awesome, so you guys work together and have some other side work. We love that because that's kind of our story a little bit too. Awesome, so how do we know you guys? How do you know us? Where did we meet? [Priscilla] I met Jen through my sisterhood Bible study. I think she came with a friend one time, and so we met through then and kinda connected and just via social media have kinda stayed in touch. [Jennifer] Yep, I've been following you for a while. You have such great encouragement too. I always get refreshed when I see your stories up, so I appreciate that. [Priscilla] Oh, praise God, thank you. [Aaron] Yeah, and one of the reasons we wanted to interview you guys is because we see you guys as a marriage after God, and that you guys use your talents and resources in many different ways to serve God, so we're excited to kinda dig into some of those things. But before we do that, we have an icebreaker question. [Jennifer] A fun question. [Aaron] Yeah, and since we thought of a question that was around money because we're gonna be talking about being stewards, and this is a funny one because this has nothing to do with stewardship But if you were given, and both of you gotta answer this, if you were given $100 today, and there's not gonna be any shame or guilt in what you spent it on-- [Jennifer] No strings attached. [Aaron] What would you spend it on? [Priscilla] Oh, well, easily either date night, but selfishly, probably just more Lululemon. [Aaron] I love that story. [Jennifer] That's awesome. [Priscilla] But go ahead, babe. [Aaron] They have the best gym shorts. [Josh] Yeah, it would definitely be a date night. We have one of our favorite restaurants that we haven't been to in quite a while that we would, that I would definitely use that for. [Priscilla] Yeah, that'd be fun. [Jennifer] That's so awesome, you guys. I love that. Okay, so we're gonna move on to the quote from Marriage After God from chapter seven. It says, the goal for every marriage after God is to build a healthy and biblical financial foundation so as to be good stewards and good servants with everything God entrusts to us. [Aaron] Yeah, so how does that, just real quick, when you hear that, do you feel like that is something that is encompassed in your guys' marriage and life, something you guys are striving towards? What do you guys think? [Josh] Yes, yeah it is, absolutely. Being a good servant towards God as well as stewards of everything He's given us is a huge calling as a Christian husband, but also as we grow closer to God, that is definitely what He's calling us all to do. [Priscilla] Yeah, and I would say it doesn't really matter what place you're in, whether you're struggling or you're maybe more, your foundation is a little more secure financially or you're prospering, whatever you have can be used to help build up the kingdom. I mean, whether your house is big or small, you can still use that. I think sometimes we think we have to have so much more to be a good steward, but technically, whatever you have, and so, no matter where we've been at in our process of getting out of debt or whatever, we try to use what we have to benefit others or bless others or build up the local church or stuff like that. [Aaron] I love that perspective, and it's exactly what we're trying to get across in this chapter of the book, being a good and faithful steward is. We sometimes, and I remember, there's been times in our life, Jennifer, that we would say, well, if we had a little bit more, then we'd give more. If we had a little bit more, we'd save better, or we'd be able to do that one thing that we know that we've been desiring to do for God, but you're right. As long as it's something out there, we'll never do it, but if it's something that we have now, we can be a steward with it and be faithful with the little, or whatever it is now. I love that. [Jennifer] Yeah, I remember that we were tempted to think that way, but it didn't take very long for God to kind of prick your heart and get you to lead in a way that encouraged us to be good stewards with even the little bit that we had. [Aaron] I remember the spirit just saying, hey, if you're not gonna do it now, why do you think you'll do it later? [Priscilla] Exactly, yes, that. [Jennifer] And Priscilla, I really liked what you said about it doesn't matter what you've been given, whether you're prosperous or not, because that right there is so relatable to everybody listening right now. So everybody's accountable and responsible for what they have today, so I just love that we're starting out the episode with that. [Priscilla] Yeah. Yeah, 'cause we've definitely had-- [Aaron] So-- [Priscilla] Oh, sorry, go ahead. [Aaron] No, you go ahead. [Priscilla] Oh, I was just gonna say we've definitely had times where it's like, we're living out of boxes, and we're living in someone else's house, but still even having community with people. I don't know. We kinda make excuses sometimes for why we don't jump out there and do more. But that's a huge encouragement. You don't have to have a lot to really just bless someone or reach out or have community. [Jennifer] Yep. [Aaron] Yeah, you just have to have what God's given you and then steward it well. Use it for Him, use it for your family, and not squander it. So how would you define being a good and faithful steward over what God has given you guys? We've mentioned some of it, but how do you define that in your life? [Josh] Well, being a good and faithful steward, if we look at Matthew chapter 25, when he actually talks about the talents, the story of the talents, it really has to deal with resources, not necessarily a monetary thing, so learning how to use everything that God has given us in a proper perspective of a Christian not owning anything but being in charge of what everything God has given us in total resources, family, friends, influence, whatever it may be, understanding that our role is not to own but to simply manage on God's behalf is a huge thing for me. [Priscilla] Yeah. I think just using that perspective-- [Aaron] That was a really good quote real quick. [Priscilla] With all of our, it's easy to grip on tight to what you have, but stuff comes and goes, right? [Josh] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, always. I love that quote you said, what was it? I almost forgot it. Oh, we don't own things, we manage things. [Josh] Yeah. [Aaron] And I love that. [Jennifer] So how does our stewardship affect what God is inviting us to do, whether that's good or bad? [Aaron] If we steward well or steward poorly, how does those actions affect, how when we're being invited by God to do something, when we're chasing after God, does it matter? [Josh] Yes, it does. [Priscilla] Yeah. [Josh] Especially in that Matthew 25 section is, while you can see that God honors and blesses the good and faithful stewards with more, and yet the one who decided he was not going to do anything with it and basically be a sloth with it or lazy with it was punished. So he really does value those that make sure that they have a proper mindset about how God has blessed their life versus those who just sit on it and take advantage of it and not use it to bless God. [Jennifer] Was there a point in your guys' marriage when you guys looked at your finances and said, we have to change? It wasn't going in the direction that you wanted it to go, it wasn't lining up biblically, and you just knew? [Priscilla] Oh, girl. [Josh] Yes, yes, yes, yes. [Priscilla] Let me tell you. [Aaron] Tell us, tell us, yeah. [Priscilla] Yeah, we struggled. I mean, I think we just kinda saw the way our parents lived, but obviously, they're 25 years or so ahead of us, but we're seeing the way they live, and we're trying to match that with making nothing-burger amounts of money an hour. And so we really got into a lot of debt, including like he already had student-loan debt before I came in the picture, so when we got married, we were already about $100,000 in debt, which is crazy 'cause I was 19, and he was 23. So that's how we started off our marriage. Also, not to mention, I was pregnant, so that's a story for another day. So there is already just so much going on there, and it just made it really stressful, so we really limped along for about two-and-a-half years, and had someone not stepped in and gave us some resources, we probably would be divorced. But my dad actually gave us The Total Money Makeover for Christmas. [Aaron] From Dave Ramsey? [Priscilla] Yes, yes, Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover, and we literally sat and read it on New Year's Eve, and then that new year we just decided to change our life. And we were what he would call gazelle-intense, and sell everything but the kids, have garage sales. So that was like, okay, this is a real plan and a real hope for us, 'cause I think we knew the direction we wanted to go. We just felt like we couldn't get there or didn't really know what to do or have a steady plan in place. So that was a real game-changer for us. [Josh] Yep. [Jennifer] Awesome. So, when you started to make those changes in your life, did you have little victories that encouraged you and motivated you? Can you share a little bit about that? [Josh] Yeah, those were kind of fun because when we were in that so much debt, there was so much tension built around just about every aspect of life because, as a husband, my wife was so stressed about the money and the bills were coming in, and as a husband you kind of feel like a failure when your wife is in such a stressful position in something that you should be able to handle, finances with work. And so it was, when we finally got on the same page and saw a future in the direction that we wanted to move in, when we would pay off those off little bills and we would get those things out from underneath us, the weight that was lifted off was just huge, and we could finally feel victory and direction in a way that we knew was God-honoring as well. [Priscilla] I think I remember-- [Jennifer] That's so awesome. [Priscilla] Yeah, like our first garage sale we had, we made $500, which was so exciting, but we were trying to get that first step of get a little $1,000 emergency fund, so that was even a very real, tangible victory there. And yeah, our whole life shifted pretty fast. So there was a lot of things. Obviously, the tension between us lifted, like you said, and we actually went back to church 'cause we hadn't been to church in a while, and we started giving. So there was lots of little shifts that happened very quickly. [Aaron] So you guys started giving during this season of, this gazelle-like sprint? [Priscilla] Oh, right away, right away. Now, I wouldn't say it was high. We hadn't even been in church regularly, and so we were like, oh, well this is telling us we need to give, so I guess we should go back to church if we're gonna do that. [Jennifer] That's awesome. [Aaron] Go, Dave Ramsey. [Priscilla] We go back to church, and we just were like, okay, Lord, we're gonna just step out in faith and do $25 a week, which was a lot for us at the time, 'cause we were drowning in debt. And then, I think probably a few months in we went to $50 a week, and probably six months into this journey we were at a full-blown tithe, but yeah, God really just honored even that little bit of just stepping out in faith. [Jennifer] Wow, that's so awesome, you guys. I think I said "awesome" already so many times already in this episode, but I really appreciate your guys' transparency, and I think that the first thing that comes to my mind as you were sharing is that a lot of people are gonna understand that weight that you felt underneath that debt, and there's probably even people, couples listening who are under that weight of debt. But how encouraging it is to hear that even something like a garage sale and getting your feet, jumping in or running like a gazelle, like you said, toward that to accomplish it, those little victories matter so much. So I just wanted that to be a note and an encouragement for them to hear. So I just appreciate you sharing that, because I think that if they, hopefully, this excites them so that they start making action steps toward their debt and getting free. [Priscilla] Yeah, that's so, so important, yeah, little victories to motivate you. [Aaron] So, I got a question. Are you guys debt-free? We are not Not yet. [Priscilla] currently debt-free, no. [Aaron] Okay, which is totally fine, but my second question to this is do you guys live now in a, what we call in the book, a debt-free mentality? [Josh] Yes. [Priscilla] Yeah, so just to be totally transparent, we got very, very close on our journey. We did pay off all those student loans. We paid off all our credit-card debt. We were driving paid-for cars. [Aaron] Awesome. [Priscilla] So we got there. Last year, we made some career changes that did, we did make the decision together to take on a little bit of debt. That was really, really hard for us to do because of the journey that we've been on, but we really felt like this was the path forward. And there's been so many crazy, cool things since making that shift 'cause we really had to, yeah, we had give up some things. There was a lot of sacrifice there, so but it's been really cool to see what the Lord's doing with that. So but now, yes, we're back on that track, so it kinda feels like we've gone back to square one, but we've done it before, and we're gonna do it again. [Josh] Yep. [Jennifer] That's so awesome to hear. [Aaron] So I love that 'cause I want everyone listening, 'cause most of the country is in debt-- [Millsaps] Yeah. [Aaron] And our heart in this chapter in this part of the book is to say just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean we should do it. [Priscilla] Exactly, totally. [Aaron] And so, that debt-free mentality is, whether you're in debt or not, that you begin to act like you would be when you're out of debt. Right. Yes. [Aaron] Meaning you don't overspend, which is Dave Ramsey's model anyway. It's like, spend within your means, save, pay off your debt. But I wanna ask you guys, the getting out of debt is awesome, and I don't wanna over-spiritualize getting out of debt, but why does it matter that we get out of debt? Why does it matter that you guys are faithful and good stewards with your money? It's not just for the sake of being debt-free and, oh, good for us, we're debt-free now. Why is it? What's the big deal? [Priscilla] Oh man, okay, so I don't know where this verse is in the Bible. Maybe someone can find it later. But the one where it talks about running the race and laying aside every weight, you know what I mean? Being in debt isn't necessarily a sin. I mean, there's sin at the core of that, and that's how you got there or whatever, but it's just running the race for the Lord and having a healthy marriage and a healthy family, it just creates so much stress, and you kinda have, if a lot of your focus is there, and it could be an indicator of where your heart is at, and it's different for each person, I suppose. But if your focus is on your financial woes, and oftentimes, seven to eight out of 10 people are living paycheck to paycheck. That's stressful, and a lot of that is because we have gotten ourselves in these monumental piles of debt, and we can't think straight. We can't focus on other things, or you're having to work so much to pay all this off. When you're mentally spent, and you're physically spent on just trying to pay for your lifestyle, you can't really focus on the things that are the most important, like discipling your kids, and building up the local church, and loving on people around you. And you're also, there's a lot of opportunities you're gonna have to say no to because financially you just don't have the means, or things you want to support, so it just becomes a weight, really, like a noose around your neck that you can't, you have very limited freedom on the opportunities and things you're able to do. [Josh] Yeah. I was gonna, to piggyback on that, that we are the example to our kids that, as we deal with money, as we deal with stress, as we deal with debt, our kids are watching how we behave, how we deal with, how do we overcome the struggles of something may not go our way for a month or something. How do we deal with that, and are we faithful to God in prayer? Are we understanding that He provides everything for us and that ultimately we're gonna trust in what He has planned for us? Or are we gonna sit there and blame each other, blame the world? How are we gonna deal with things that don't go our way? And our kids are always watching, so as we have a proper perspective of our role as Christians within the confines of what God gives us, they are watching, and they are learning. [Jennifer] Gosh, Josh, that is so good, and I just love that you went there because we all, as parents, need to be reminded about the impact we're having in our children's lives and the foundation that we're setting them up for, and I just, that is so good and so right on, which kind of leads me into this next question. Because I follow Priscilla on social media, I saw a picture of her daughter recently with a bunch of bottles in front of her, baby bottles filled with money. So I want you guys to explain that and explain kind of that example that you're setting for your kids and how you're incorporating them into what you guys are doing. [Priscilla] Yeah, so, I mean, we really try to keep it super simple for them. That actually was our Bible study got together and collected some money for a local organization here called Corona Life Services, which is basically a pregnancy crisis clinic, and so that was really cool. But they actually were the ones, my kids actually were the ones that even went around our neighborhood, just talking to people about Corona Life Services. And I think-- [Aaron] That is so cool. [Priscilla] Yeah, it was really, really cool. And who's gonna say no to kids? So that's a great way-So, I mean, it's like, some money, send your kids. No, I'm just kidding. But, so we-- [Aaron] It's good strategy. [Priscilla] Yeah No, but it's funny, actually, because we just got, you get, at the end of the year you get your giving statement from your church or whatever, and each of our kids actually had one because they go and they put their money in, they fill out the little envelope. [Aaron] That's really cool. [Priscilla] But we had just basically taught them spend, save, give, like, what you're earning, 'cause our kids are hustlers, man. They've seen us just hustle for the last few years, and they're like, we want to hustle. What could we do? So they've done all kinds of things. And so, they have their own bank accounts, and we go to the bank, they fill out their own thing, and so, once they have so much in a little stockpile, it's like, okay, this you get to spend, this we're gonna take to the bank, and this you're taking to church on Sunday. So we just keep it simple and just hopefully forming those good habits now 'cause I mean, I literally remember getting my first paycheck, and I'm like, I'm going straight to Guess and buying a pair of jeans. But already our kids are like, I'm not spending that kind of money. They're very frugal. Well, one of them is not, but we won't put her on blast. So But for the most part, yes. [Aaron] But those skills are amazing for them to learn now. Like you said, you're building habits that we necessarily didn't have growing up. I'm sure maybe our parents tried in some ways, but just the intentionality of saying it's not just money and that we use it for ourselves, but this is actually something that's God's giving us, and how are we gonna manage it? [Priscilla] And they're learning to hold it loosely at a young age, you know what I mean? [Men] Yes. [Priscilla] I actually saw my son do something that sort of blew my hair back, and then I was convicted that it blew my hair back 'cause I'm like, that should be everyone. But we were doing a gift for someone, and we were kinda pulling some money together. We made this cute little thing with it, and just for a family we wanted to love on, and a bunch of people came together and did this. And I'm like, hey, I asked my kids, I'm like, you guys wanna participate in this? And it's not like, hey, we've got some money, and you have to participate, but I want them to want to? And my son, I was like, just a couple bucks we could tie on there or five bucks. And my son comes in with a $20 bill, and I'm like, baby, you know what I mean, it's fine, just grab a five or something. This sounds horrible, right? Maybe we should make this podcast anonymous, but-- [Aaron] Yeah. [Priscilla] He's all, well, I don't need it. He's like-- [Smiths] Aww! [Priscilla] And I was like, oh my gosh. Why did I just try to talk my son out of giving? What's wrong with me? But it just blessed me so much. [Aaron] Are you sure you want to give that much? [Priscilla] How much do we have? And it's like, we have stuff we don't really need, but anyways, it's cool to see them forming those habits and holding it loosely and not being. I think it's easy to just want to hold onto everything you have, but and you just don't know, what the seasons come and go, and so. [Jennifer] Well, good for you guys. We commend you for teaching your children rightly and righteously, and I just hope that this is an encouragement for all of us parents today to be leading our children the way the Bible calls us to. [Aaron] Yeah, and I have another question for you guys. We're getting down to the end. But again, going back to what we were talking about. The whole purpose of all this is we're not just good stewards for the sake of good stewardship. We're not just savers for the sake of having more money. We're not just debt-free mentality just for the sake of getting out of debt. God's got something for us to do. He's got a ministry for his body to be working in, and we're a part of that body. And I noticed in your Instagram feed that you guys, I don't know if you guys are still doing this, but you've hosted Financial Peace University classes at your home for other people. What motivated you guys to do that, not just for yourselves, but now you're like, hey, let's bring other people into this? [Priscilla] That's exactly it. We just wanted to see people have victory in their financial lives. I mean, really for us, it turned our whole life around. [Josh] Yeah. [Priscilla] It wasn't just turned our bank account around. [Josh] No. [Priscilla] Our marriage was struggling. Our finances were struggling. We were just struggling, all of it, spiritually, we were struggling big time. So it really just, it was a catalyst to get us on the right track. And not everybody's in that dire of a circumstance, but for sure-- [Aaron] But many are, financially. [Priscilla] Yeah, and really, accountability for us, continuing to do that, and then just yeah, really wanting to see people's eyes open to the possibilities of when we're giving like we should, when we're saving like we should, and when we're managing our money like we should, there's opportunity there. [Josh] Yeah, but I mean, and you kind of alluded to it a little while earlier. In high school and in school we're not taught how to deal with money for the most part. We go to school, we learn what we need to learn, but we're not really instructed on how this world works around money, and so going these Financial Peace or the Dave Ramsey, we actually got an understanding of how money works. And so we saw frustration and stress on a lot of other couple's faces, and it wasn't that they were struggling with anything necessarily huge, but you could just see that desire to want to get beyond where they were at, but not have the knowledge or the ability to really understand what they needed to do. And so, we would kinda just make the suggestion, like, hey, well, this really helped not only our marriage, but an understanding of a direction that God really wanted us to go with our money. [Aaron] I love that, and it's you guys ministering to other couples and helping them mature, helping them grow, walking with them as you are also walking in these things. And what's funny is that, or not funny, but what's amazing is when we walk in obedience in little areas, and I see money as a little area, even though it feels so big, but it's a little area because, once we figure it out and get control of it and start walking rightly in it, it just starts happening, making more sense and working better. It doesn't mean we're gonna be wealthy, but if we're out of debt, we're already wealthier than 90% of the country, right? [Millsaps] Yeah. [Aaron] Just because you're out of debt, even if you only made a minimum-wage job. [Priscilla] Totally. [Aaron] But I just love that we serve God in those little things, and it makes it easier for us to serve God in bigger things. And I'm sure as you guys do this it's easier for you to open your homes for other things. It's easier for you to go, and like you said, you gave a little bit each week, and then you gave more. That's a perfect example of us walking in faith, being faithful with a little, and being able to be faithful with much. [Jennifer] Yeah, and what I think is cool is that in your obedience to managing your finances well, you experienced those mini-victories-- [Aaron] Yeah, those little wins. [Jennifer] or large victories, and that motivated you to say you can do it too, and you reached out to other people. [Millsaps] Yeah. [Jennifer] And that's a large part of the message of Marriage After God. The book is to inspire couples to say, what have we experienced, what have we walked through that we can then encourage other people with? [Aaron] You can do it too. [Jennifer] And say you can do it too. So I just, I think that's so awesome that you guys have done that and are still continuing to do ministry together as a team for God in even other ways. So, super awesome. [Aaron] So I got two more questions for you. The second-to-last one is this. If you can encourage our listeners right now with two things that they can do that'll help them gain victory in the area of finances and just being good stewards, what would you say? [Priscilla] Oh, gosh, two things. Well, one, get on a budget. Get on a budget. Get on, write down a budget. That would be, you need to start there, knowing how much you're even spending and what you've got coming in, going out. We can't just walk around in the dark. [Josh] Yeah, it's hard to imagine, but there are couples out there that either one or both really have no idea how much comes in and how much is going out. [Priscilla]Yeah. And then, gosh, I would just say start giving. I think that stepping out in faith is so important, and really just trusting the Lord to, just trusting the Lord with that. It's so tempting, especially when you're in a tough spot, to want to hold on to what you have. And like I said, you don't have to be like, okay, 10% right away. Start with just something that you're gonna be committed to and yeah, I would say give. [Aaron] Right, which is practicing generosity, practicing obedience of giving to those that are teaching you and maturing you. I love that. [Josh] Yeah, it also feels literally intuitive. [Jennifer] Awesome, guys. [Josh] You want to, in the moment when you're trying to save and pay off debt, it doesn't make sense to give something away in that kind of a setting. But as we're obedient to what God's word calls us to do, and that's something that he puts a great importance on, then he sees that as that step of faith, and that's a good thing. [Aaron] I love that. I think of, when you just said the world obedience, and I think of the story of the rich young ruler going to Jesus and saying, Jesus, how do I get to heaven? And He says, follow the commands, and he's, I've done all these commands. And He says, one thing you lack. And He says, go and sell all that you have, give to the poor, and follow me. And I think a lot of people have taken that, the poverty gospel, and saying, oh, if you have things, you're not holy. If you things, you're not, but that's not what's actually happening. [Josh] No. [Aaron] Jesus has given a command to this man, and he disobeyed it. [Priscilla] Yeah. [Josh] Yeah. [Aaron] So, the problem, He says, the thing you lack is obedience to me. He says, sell all you have, give it to the poor, and follow me. And he walks away sad because he's got much wealth. He would rather enamored and enveloped in his wealth than be obedient to Christ. [Josh] Well, and his wealth-- [Aaron] And so, like you said, that obedience-- [Josh] His wealth had given him a comfort level that he was really used to, and he was fine with attaining righteousness along with his wealth, but he didn't understand what that cost was really going to be, and it was hard. He didn't want to do it. [Aaron] Yeah. And the cost is, like I was getting at, is obedience. Christ wants obedience. And so, like you said, you practice that obedience. It may be counterintuitive-- [Priscilla] Yes, exactly. [Aaron] But He wants generous hearts in His body. He wants generous givers. He wants people that trust Him, and I just love that. Thank you for that. [Jennifer] Okay, you guys, we're moving on to the last question, and it is this. In your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Josh] In our words, a marriage after God. It's really understanding your role as a Christian, as a husband, as a wife, to know that we are servants. We are, again, we don't control, we don't own anything, that God has put us here as servants to manage what He has given us, and as we are found faithful with what He's given us, He can trust us then with more, day in and day out, not only with money, finances, but resources, what we have at our disposal to do things to influence our friends, to bear each other's burdens, to really be able to dive into people's lives and be able to help and lift in a way that's practical as well as spiritually helpful. [Aaron] Mm, I love that. Amen, wow. Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, go ahead, 'cause-- [Priscilla] Oh, I was just, my word for the year is surrender, and so, really just, I mean, me personally, but just really surrendering, kind of our ideas of what our life should look like, and we've, man, we've had a rollercoaster of a year, and we just couldn't even have anticipated what all that was gonna look like, but really, just continue to press into the Lord and press into each other and keeping short account, staying vulnerable, really challenging ourselves to really be praying together often. So just really seeking the Lord together and being on the same page. [Jennifer] Mm, that's good. [Aaron] Praise God. Well, Josh, Priscilla, we are so happy to have interviewed you guys, and we thank you for your guys' honesty and openness in sharing your guys' journey, because that's where, I mean, everyone's on a journey. And the goal is, as marriages after God, that we're all chasing after God, and it doesn't mean that we're all at the same place in our walks, but that we're all going the same direction. [Priscilla] Yeah. [Aaron] And we say this throughout the book, unity, one mind, one heart, one spirit, with one mission, and so I just, I thank you guys, I commend you guys, and I pray that you guys would continue on that journey of getting out of debt so that you guys can just continue to serve more and more and give more and more, and we love that, so thank you. And so, what we're gonna do is we're gonna end in prayer, and then I'm gonna close us out, so join us. Dear Lord, thank you for giving us the resources we need to accomplish the mission you have for us. Thank you for showing us in your word how to be good stewards with what we have. We pray that as Christian husbands and wives we would walk in wisdom when it comes to our finances. May we be on the same page in marriage, and may we communicate with each other as we submit to you. We pray that we would not waste the things that you have given us, but instead, we pray we would invest them for your kingdom. We pray that we would see everything that we have, our marriage, our children, our assets, our time, all of it, as gifts you have given to us to steward well. Please help us to be an example in the world of how to live righteously. Help us to be an example to our children and to teach them your ways. Lord, help us to steward this life well for your name's sake. In Jesus' name, amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Millsaps] Amen. [Aaron] All right, so hey, we just thank everyone that's been listening to this interview. We hope you were blessed by it. We pray that you have some things to talk about as a couple, and this is episode seven in our 16-part series, and so we look forward to having you over the next episodes. See you next week. [Aaron] Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Quote From Marriage After God Chapter 1: God’s purpose for marriage “Marriage is and always will be an earthly symbol of a heavenly truth.” -- Cody and Stacy are not only some of our closest friends they also attended our Marriage After God Gathering, which that gathering became a catalyst in us writing the Marriage After God Book! -- Dear Lord, Thank you for marriage and thank you for creating it with intentionality and with purpose. May we walk humbly with each other as we choose to actively fulfill this purpose. May we be husbands and wives who know confidently how you are using marriage to reflect your perfect love to this lost world. Mature us, o Lord, and use us to encourage growth in each other so that we continue to be more and more fruitful. We pray others would see the fruit of Your Spirit in our lives. May our obedience to live out all that you have commanded impacts our marriage, impacts our families and impacts this world in an extraordinary way. May we be faithful servants who build your kingdom and not our own. May we say yes to you to participate in all of the wonderful opportunities you invite us to do for you. Give us courage and fill our heart with strength as we chase boldly after you, together. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're going to be in part one of the Marriage After God series. And we're gonna be talking with Cody and Stacy Mehan about God's purpose for our marriage. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] Thank you so much for joining us on the first episode in this series. There's gonna be 16 episodes. We have 16 interviews coming your way. They're all powerful, they're all amazing, and we're excited for that. But we want to invite you to take a moment, if you have not already and leave a review. The reviews are how our podcast gets seen by new people. And so if you've enjoyed this podcast and you're excited about the upcoming interviews we have coming your way in the series, please leave a review, leave a star rating, and we'd really appreciate that. [Jennifer] Another way you can support this podcast is by shopping on our online store, shop.marriageaftergod.com. And we just want to take a minute to highlight our newest book, Marriage After God. That's what this entire series on the podcast is based off of. And if you hear anything today or throughout the rest of the series that encourages you or inspires you, you're gonna want to get this book. So, go to shop.marriageaftergod.com and get more information on Marriage After God and order today. [Aaron] So, today on the first episode in our 16-week Marriage After God series, we are interviewing some of our best friends. Cody and Stacy Mehan, welcome to the show. [Stacy] Woo-hoo. [Cody] Hi, thanks for having us. We're super excited to be here. [Aaron] And you guys are super nervous, and that's OK. [Cody] We are. [Stacy] What are you even talking about? I'm not nervous at all. [Cody] We're slightly nervous really excited to be here, but yes we are nervous. [Aaron] Yeah and that's OK. It's good to be nervous, but don't be nervous. It's gonna be a fun conversation. And why don't you take a second before we get into the icebreaker question and just let us know how was the journey of you guys figuring out how you were gonna answer the questions, for this episode, 'cause you're nervous. [Cody] Great question, there's the icebreaker question right there. [Stacy] That's a good icebreaker. [Cody] Yeah, so. [Stacy] It was amazing! [Cody] Awesome, yeah so we were actually-- [Stacy] Super simple. [Cody] It wasn't simple. We prayed, got the questions out, got our bibles out, and we're really excited actually to walk through the, just to walk through and answer them together just so that we would be less nervous than we are and more prepared probably than we are. And it actually ended in conflict. [Aaron] Yeah it wasn't like a fun conversation. [Cody] It wasn't, no, we typically don't argue like this, but we argued through our responses disagreeing with each other. [Stacy] Because I was right. [Cody] And I was right. [Stacy] And so was Cody. [Cody] And so we were both right-- [Jennifer] You guys are so relatable, right off the bat everyone listening is going, Yup. [Stacy] Yeah. [Cody] So we went to bed, we woke up this morning, we prayed, and we actually that's really, we just prayed. We just asked God to forgive us. And we asked each other for forgiveness, and it was good. And so we actually got through the questions, probably not enough but we're excited that we're through it. [Aaron] It's OK the more candid, the better. But it's cool to know that the people listening are gonna be like, oh, they also fight. [Cody] We're normal [Aaron] And argue about spiritual things. [Stacy] Just a little bit. [Jennifer] I do love your guys' response to that conflict though right away you just decided, nope we're gonna pray about this and submit it back to the Lord. And I feel like that's key and I think that a marriage after God has that quality about them, so we're already encouraging people. [Stacy] Yeah, totally. [Aaron] So before we get going, why don't you introduce who you are, how long you've been married, kids, work, and how you know us. [Jennifer] And how many children you have. [Cody] Yeah I'll start. So again, Cody and Stacy, we have been married for fifth, 10 years, going on 10 years. [Stacy] 15. [Aaron] Were you gonna say 15 years? [Cody] I always say-- [Stacy] Almost 10 years. [Cody] 15 or 20 cause it's funny and she corrects me. So we've been married almost 10 years. We have three children, we are expecting one in, [Stacy] One in the oven, May. [Cody] March? April, May, this is perfect. [Stacy] March, May. [Cody] In May. [Stacy] April, tomorrow. [Cody] Yeah, it was just really exciting. And so yeah, married 10 years. We have three kids, one on the way, what else did you ask? [Jennifer] What do you for work? [Cody] What do we do for work? Yeah, it's really exciting. So our journey is amazing, we'll probably get into more of that. But as of this year I started a home building company and build custom houses which is really fun. And my lovely wife, I'll let you-- [Stacy] Which has actually been a dream of ours for our entire marriage. [Cody] Yeah, it's our dream that I'm doing and we're going to do it together. [Stacy] End up doing it together. And right now I am running a Young Living business and it is pretty awesome, super fun. [Aaron] Thriving? [Cody] It is thriving and awesome. [Stacy] It's thriving and I'm also obviously a mommy and a wife, taking care of our home. So I have lots of jobs. [Jennifer] Awesome. [Stacy] Just a couple. [Cody] Yeah, that's us. [Aaron] Awesome, and how did we meet? How did you guys meet us, 'cause this is a funny story. [Cody] Yeah this is a good story. You should tell this story. [Stacy] OK, so Rowan our first baby was six weeks old and we were walking downtown, just on a walk with another couple. And I saw this girl who I totally recognized but I could not figure out where I recognized her from. I'm like is she on TV? And we don't really watch a ton of TV so I couldn't figure it out. I'm like I know I've seen her somewhere, Babe, do you know her, who is that person? [Cody] So she, yeah, she points over to this couple. And multiple times says hey, I know them, hey, I know them, hey, I know them, and-- [Stacy] Eventually I figured it out. And I'd been doing this, [Cody] No what you did, what I did was I was like, Babe, go talk to her. [Stacy] Oh yeah, yeah. [Cody] That's what I said, right? I said go ask her how you know her. And you did and Jen's like, oh yeah, I-- [Stacy] I was like are you the Unveiled Wife? [Cody] Yeah it was really funny. [Stacy] She's like, yeah? So I was doing her first Devotional Wife After God and she had done YouTube videos for it. So I recognized her face, obviously. [Cody] And so she used to ask me weekly to go out of my office to watch these videos. And so then I would go into the living room and I'd listen so I knew Jen's voice. [Jennifer] Yeah, yeah. [Cody] Before I knew her face from the YouTube, yeah. [Jennifer] Well we're so grateful that you guys stopped us that day. And we had just moved to central Oregon and I thought we were moving to this small town. I didn't think anyone would know us or recognize us or anything like that. [Aaron] It didn't happen very often. [Jennifer] No. [Aaron] Like, rarely did someone recognize us back then. [Jennifer] So we were down in Drake Park and we were with The Partridges, Dale and Veronica at the time they had just moved up here too. And it was just a beautiful day, I remember. And you came up and your smile, everything about you is so memorable and we kicked it off. We were like friends immediately. [Aaron] The next night actually it was that day we got to know each other, then the next night we went to Dale and Veronica's for dinner. [Jennifer] Yeah, burgers. [Cody] And then hung out with you guys, yeah the Spees were there. [Aaron] So we should actually thank Dale and Veronica 'cause of their-- [Stacy] Thank you, Partridges. [Aaron] Consistency of, hey, let's just go hang out tonight. [Cody] And come over. [Stacy] They're so good at that, yeah. [Aaron] Well we are happy, we've been friends ever since. Like, good friends, like best friends. [Cody] Since that day, yeah. [Aaron] And so it was-- [Stacy] We like you guys. [Aaron] You were the first people we thought of when wanting to launch this Marriage After God series. We were like let's interview our best friends. [Cody] That's awesome. [Aaron] And so we're excited to talk to you guys. And we're excited to get into the heavy lifting questions, but let's do this first icebreaker question. Describe your favorite date night meal and dessert. [Cody] Do you wanna start? You want me to start? [Stacy] I don't know, you go ahead. [Cody] So, I would say our favorite date night is maybe long and we have time, like it's not a, typically when we're dreaming of our favorite date night, it's not a one-stop shop to get dinner. We like to go, like everything we do we get a coffee first, right? [Stacy] Yeah, start with coffee. [Cody] Afford the time. [Aaron] There's a process. [Cody] There's a process, right, we get a coffee, and then often we actually don't know where we're gonna go so we'll drive through downtown, circle-- [Jennifer] Look for the best spot. [Cody] Yeah, we talk about and then we go somewhere and-- [Stacy] It usually ends up-- [Cody] Pretty organic. [Stacy] Progressive. [Cody] Progressive, yeah, coffee-- [Stacy] Which I really like. [Cody] Dinner, I always order what I want. She typically doesn't like her meal and then-- [Stacy] Well because I like to try things-- [Cody] Will eat mine. [Stacy] I like to try new things and you're-- [Aaron] That sounds a lot like Jennifer. [Stacy] Super safe with meals-- [Cody] Yeah I'm really safe, I always go with what I know. [Stacy] You get what you know. [Cody] Or, or, actually I tell the waitress at least half the time [Stacy] Surprise me. [Cody] Yup, surprise me and it's always good. [Jennifer] Aaron does that kinda stuff. [Cody] Yeah, I love it. [Jennifer] That'd make me nervous. [Stacy] I'll do the surprise but whenever I get the surprise I never like it. But I like what Cody gets. [Jennifer] Instead of surprises I'd rather just order two or three things that I know I'm gonna like and try 'em all. [Aaron] Yeah try 'em all. She'll order something and she'll be like, Are you gonna get this one thing? I'm like, no, I was planning to get this. She's like, could you get this other thing so I can taste it? [Stacy] Yeah so we can actually try all of them. That's why it's good to go to dinner with-- [Cody] And then you get it and you like it, yeah. [Stacy] Yeah, that's why it's good to go to dinner with another couple. So you have four meals to choose from. [Cody] Yeah that's good, double date. [Aaron] Invitation accepted. [Stacy] So I don't think it necessarily matters what the food is but it's more like the company. [Aaron] And the experience. [Cody] Yeah, so progressive, does that answer all the questions? Yup, it was good. [Cody] OK, good. [Aaron] OK so Jennifer, why don't you read the quote that is just gonna kick off this section? From chapter one of the book Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Marriage is and always will be an earthly symbol of a heavenly truth. [Aaron] Which is the whole focus of this first chapter which is called God's Purpose for Marriage. And we were gonna talk about this today. We're not gonna come to the full conclusion on it. The goal is like hey, let's navigate this idea of the purpose that God has for our marriage. In this world, with each other. And so we're gonna just get in some questions with you guys. [Jennifer] Yeah so I thought it'd be fun to start with the opening chapter, what we open with in this chapter. Which is the gathering, the Marriage After God gathering, which you guys got to be a part of. [Cody] We did, yeah [Stacy] So fun. [Jennifer] You guys came to, so, what was going through your mind when you were sitting there as that guy-- [Aaron] Well real quick lemme give just a little bit of background on what the gathering is. In case the listeners aren't sure what that is. This book Marriage After God came out of a retreat-style event that Jennifer and I did several years ago, a few years ago. Where we got 12, 13 couples together and we went through all of these ideas of what God wants to do in our marriages and through our marriages. And Cody and Stacy were one of the couples. So just to give a little background so now you guys can answer Jennifer's question. [Cody] Yeah, do you wanna start there or you want me to? [Stacy] Well first if I can just say I love that you guys use the term gathering over some other terms that you could-- [Aaron] Retreat or conference. [Stacy] Or vacation, because it was intimate. I love that word because it is intimate when you have a gathering at your house. It makes way for intimate conversations, you get to know each other on a whole nother level. So I really loved that. What were we thinking when we got there? Let's go, let's learn something. [Cody] Yeah it was really, it was beautiful there. So the setting, have you described the setting? [Stacy] Go ahead. [Cody] Yeah so the setting is along the Metolius River here in Oregon. And it's just out in the middle of nowhere, it's quiet there's beautiful mountains. There's this amazing green pasture which I don't describe as good as Jen did in the first chapter of the book there. By the way I paused on that last night and thought about how creative your mind is when I read that. [Jennifer] Oh, cool. [Cody] But it was absolutely beautiful and just peaceful and there was how many, 12 couples? We all sat in this big room we got coffee or tea and we sat down. And I think what was really impactful for everybody there was that immediately, we had a manual, we said hi, we got to know each other, we introduced ourselves, but we opened the Bible. And we started with scripture, we started with prayer and then immediately just dove into our really healthy, heavy dose of scripture. And how it-- [Aaron] Do you remember what we read? [Stacy] Like we... [Cody] I don't. [Aaron] The first thing I read, wasn't it John 17? [Cody] Is that what it was? I think that rings a bell. [Aaron] Just talking about unity and being one with Christ, one with God, one with each other. [Stacy] Yeah. [Cody] Yeah, and I think the first night was foundation, was the foundation on the word of God, yeah. So it was a really, just kind of to answer that question, it was really awesome opportunity to get together with couples and it was intimate, and it was a gathering, and it was deep, and it was intentional. [Jennifer] Did you guys walk away from that event with anything on your minds? [Stacy] Oh yeah, totally. I think we left super excited. Well first, when you go anywhere and you have children and you have that opportunity to just be together and to dream together, which is something that we love to do. To dream together, to get in the word and just come back to that foundation and remember you know, God's purpose for our marriage. We walked away with ideas, excitement, ready to pursue what the Lord had for us. [Cody] Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think that was the big thing for us. We were walking in biblical community and spending time in the word and have ultimately a pretty good marriage with lots of things we work through. But the event really ignited what God could do, and wants to do, and desires to do in and through our marriage for His kingdom. So we left there with I would say kingdom-minded dreams. And then maybe a new way that we hadn't before. [Aaron] So do you feel like 'cause we're talking about God's purpose for marriages, what the first chapter's about, the idea's to open up the minds and the hearts of believers and say there's a way that you might not be thinking or seeing your marriage and it's a big picture. Did you come to the retreat with an idea that God had a purpose for your marriage? Or did that happen at the retreat? Did you leave with that idea? [Cody] Yeah, we definitely knew that God had purpose for our marriage. And we believe that and we're living it. I think that what the retreat did was offered an opportunity to think clearly and to really put on paper, and we gotta pray through it and read scripture through it. But just the opportunity to really think about God, what could you do through us? What are our strengths, what are our spiritual gifts, how are we gifted, how are we talented, and how, ultimately, can that be used for your kingdom? And you know, the more that we walk through these types of learnings like the retreat, we understand that we're really dynamic and we're a really good team and we really work well together. And oftentimes like today, like this morning, and last night we know that that's where the devil tries to kill and destroy our marriage. And so, we have to really protect that with prayer. [Stacy] Yeah, put on our armor. [Cody] Yeah, so we knew we had purpose in our marriage and it definitely ignited that and we're on the trajectory now, I would say. And that was definitely a course-changer for us. [Aaron] Awesome, and we've definitely seen the changes in your life and just the laser-focus of what's God doin', let's chase after that in our life. [Jennifer] So I just want to make a mention for those listening right now that, you've described this gathering that you guys got to be a part of and we still have so many great memories from that. But they might be sitting there going, well I wanna go, I wanna go do this thing. But that's, I wanna tell them, that's the reason we wrote Marriage After God. Because we knew we had to get this experience and the information that we covered and everything into a format that everyone could be a part of and everyone could read. [Aaron] And the book's much more concise and much more extensive in just this idea of what God wants to do with us and having a marriage after God. And so the event was a sleep of faith for us. Which we talk about in the book. And God took that yes, that we said to him, we said, yes, OK, we'll do this. That's scary, we've never done an event before. And then it was almost like God's like, OK, now that you did all the work, turn it into a book so other people can have it. 'Cause people've asked us about doing it and the amount of people that would like to do, we can't do it. We could, I guess. [Jennifer] Maybe in the future. [Aaron] But this book is just a way to get it in everyone's hands. So, you know you guys apparently already felt, had a feeling that God had a purpose for your marriage whether you knew what it was or not, just the backs of your minds and in your hearts. You're like OK, God can use our marriage, yeah he wants to do something. And then, going to this gathering kind of highlighted what it was and gave you a foundation to look at when chasing after God and this purpose. Do you think every marriage has a purpose in Christ? Like God has something for every marriage? [Jennifer] And is it the same for everyone, or is it different for everyone? [Stacy] Yeah, definitely believe that God has a purpose for every single marriage. I think that the journey and the path is gonna look different for every couple, 'cause we're not all created with the same qualities and giftings and all of that good stuff. But we all definitely have a purpose, it just looks different. [Aaron] That's awesome. [Cody] And I just have to second the yes. Yes, yes, yes God has a purpose for every Christian marriage, yes. And I think that to expand on what you said, the beauty in God creating us all differently and beautiful and in His image and giving us different spiritual gifts in the body of Christ that we're operating in is that our marriages do look different, you know? Stacy and I might have a different ministry than you do, but God definitely has a purpose in using the gifts and talents that he's given us. And the life that he's given us, and the kids that he's given us, and the parents, and just the walk of life that we have. We're all so different and that's just what makes the body of Christ beautiful that we get a tribute in different ways. [Stacy] Yeah, and there is such beauty when we're walking and the way that God has created us individually and our strengths and the things that we're weak in. For example, if I tried to walk in Jen's strength in writing, in our marriage that would create a lot of conflict. You'd try to support me in something that is not necessarily a gift of mine but I think there is such beauty in walking in our giftings and the way that God has truly created us. And I think that purpose plays out through those giftings. [Jennifer] So can you guys just take a minute to share how you guys work together as a team in your marriage to do ministry? Like what does ministry look like in your lives today? [Cody] Yeah, so ministry in our life today is I would say multi-faceted. We have kids, we have three kids and that's a big part of what we do is child rear and train them up in the way they should go and to follow the Lord. And so I think that a lot of our ministry is probably involved in that. In being with other parents and other kids and in our home and investing in our children. We're also outside of the house a lot. We have a lot of outside relationships with our businesses and being salt, being light, being an example of who Christ is through the way that we interact, and the way that we love, and the way that we give and elevate people higher than ourself. And so together in our marriage, I think that just the unity that we have in doing life together is probably the biggest part. Also we're an active part of our church. And we're an active part of that body and we give in many different ways there and serve there. [Stacy] And I think with that comes the clear mind of what the ministry is that way we're able to support each other. And what we need to do, and what we desire to do, and how we desire to minister to other couples or moms or dads. [Cody] Yeah, and we have other direct types of discipleship that we do just individually. Like I meet with guys weekly. I have a mentor that I meet with every week, I also have a younger man that I meet with and of course all the other men that I'm walking with spiritually. [Jennifer] That's awesome. And you know you had mentioned, Stacy, earlier about how if you had my gifting, Cody wouldn't be able to support you in that because it's not your gifting. So I love that you brought that up because something that I've seen in you, and you know this about yourself, but you're very good at hosting and being hospitable, and your love for people is so welcoming and inviting and, I mean even from that first week that we met you guys, you invited us to your house and you cooked this amazing meal, I still remember it. [Stacy] Oh that was good. [Cody] That was the meal I cut my finger off. [Jennifer] Yes Cody almost cut his finger off. [Cody] On the cheese slicer. [Jennifer] But after all these years-- [Aaron] How do you guys remember all that stuff? I'm trying to think of, I don't remember what we ate. What was it? [Jennifer] So I just want to encourage you guys that over the years that we both, Aaron and I have seen this play out in your marriage time and time again where you do have strengths and giftings and you do support each other well in them and a big part of your guys' ministry as a couple is just loving on those moms and dads, loving on other couples, and feeding them, not just good food, but feeding them the hope of Christ and what God's doing in your lives and talking about, hey what are you learning about? What's God been teaching you? And you're so good at that and I just wanted to highlight that because it's powerful. [Stacy] Thank you. [Cody] Yeah, thank you. [Aaron] So we were talking earlier about you guys knowing you had a purpose but not knowing what it was. But then also leaving the gathering that we hosted, the Marriage After God gathering with more focus and saying this isn't as ambiguous as we thought, God has a ministry for us, He has a mission for us, He has a purpose for our marriage not just for the world but also for our own benefit. How has recognizing that God's purposed your marriage for something more than just happily ever after, which is a phrase that we use in the book, how has that motivated you guys? How has it benefited your marriage just recognizing that there's a purpose? 'Cause you said earlier, Stacy, that when you know what the ministry is then you can work together toward it and help each other. So how have you seen benefits that recognizing, oh, we have a purpose, so how are we gonna walk in that? [Stacy] Yeah, well knowing and recognizing that you have a purpose is like having vision. [Cody] Yeah I was just gonna say that. [Stacy] Without vision people parish, so now walking away from that, we have a vision, we recognize what our purpose is. And even if we don't recognize the finite details of where we're going or what we're doing, we have this grand vision. And so I think it's enabled us to support each other better. It's impacted our marriage quite heavily because rather than working as individuals like we were I think before, it ended up working against each other in a lot of ways, we were able to come together and be unified with one purpose in mind and walk forward together, supporting each other and... [Cody] Yeah, yeah, no, that was great. And I would just agree with everything you just said and that in unity and our marriage and pursuing God together, the change was getting out of the weeds. And I think that We were really stuck in what was happening in our life, finances, bills, debt, jobs. [Stacy] What do we want to do with our lives. What jobs here? [Cody] All the things of life and the worries of the world and, when you can get above that and rise above that and understand that our purpose in our life is absolutely none of those things, those are just details, it really clears a path. I always say, I have to get out of the weeds or above the fog. And when we can have a vision in our marriage and really understand what God has called us to for his purposes, it makes the little details, the weeds, the fog, you just grunt through it because together, as a team, you understand that together you're going somewhere. And it's just the work in between to get there. And before, the day-to-day was the work and it was hard to see the vision and we didn't have a-- [Aaron] There was no end to the means, yeah. [Stacy] Right. [Cody] Yeah, It was what are we gonna do tomorrow? I dunno, you know, what about next week, I dunno. How are we gonna pay that off, who knows. And with biblical vision, then, of course when you submit to scripture, then the details of marriage and submission in marriage, and kids, and finances, those details just get worked out. [Stacy] Yeah, I think a lot of it for us as individuals too and I feel like lot of people can relate to this is taking ourselves out of the picture and not being so focused on our own needs and our own personal fleshly desires but... [Cody] But elevating each other. [Stacy] Yes, exactly. And being obedient and submissive to scripture and-- [Cody] Each other. [Stacy] Each other. [Cody] And Christ, yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, and when I think of purpose, it's like it's the end. Having the end in mind, having the goal in mind, having the purpose in mind, the direction, the plan, right? Helps, you were talking about the details, like all these things it used to be, we focused on the day-to-day and all these internal, our eyes were always looking inside the marriage. When you're fighting, when you're struggling, when you have marriage issues, when you have sin issues, when you're just going paycheck-to-paycheck. All of these things that keep our eyes inward. [Cody] Yeah, yeah. [Aaron] And what you're saying is once you recognized that the purpose is not inward, the purpose is heavenly, it's outwardly. The scripture that talks about seek the things that are above, it draws you out. Like instead of looking inward and you're not going anywhere and you even said when we were chasing our own things it was actually working against us, it's almost like the moment you have the goal in mind, not that just the details work themselves out, but also all the details work themselves in a way that make the end in mind the direction. So you're like oh, let's just change how we're treating each other because this isn't gonna address the direction we're going. Hey, let's just change how we're looking at our work because it's getting in the way of the direction we're going. And so everything just starts. Think about like electrons and when you put electric current through it it turns 'em all the same direction, right, like a magnet. And you just start all going the same direction and now as a team with that one purpose in mind, that one goal in mind you're just... and I'm just describing all the stuff for the listeners to recognize that if we don't recognize that God has a purpose for our marriage, if we don't recognize that there's an end in mind, then the means become the end and there is no direction. [Cody] That's right. [Aaron] We're just floating, we're just wandering, we're just drifting and we're just gonna go into chaos. But sounds like you guys were there and then boom, had this point of view, direction to look at and now you're starting to chase that and we've seen it. [Cody] Yeah, we're growing through that. [Jennifer] And I'd just like to mention that it's not like all those circumstances you know, having children, you mentioned debt, and finances and all of these things that you previously were really heavily focused on, it's not like all of a sudden you made a choice and all of of a sudden, those things disappear, or you used the term, I had to rise above it. You still have to navigate all of those things but-- [Aaron] You navigate 'em differently. [Jennifer] You navigate 'em differently and you navigate 'em according to what God wants in the direction and not just your own. [Cody] Yeah. [Stacy] Right, and I really like something that Aaron said, I'm probably not gonna say it exactly how you said it but you were just talking about the kind of perspective change in making it heavenly focused. And I know me as a person, when I see a change that needs to happen, what I wanna do is jump out of it completely. Like, I wanted Cody to quit his job and I wanted to move cities and jump ship and start fresh. [Cody] Start over. [Stacy] Totally. And I recognize that's not the answer a majority of the time, maybe that is the answer sometimes for some people, but it wasn't the answer for us. We had to walk through the muddy waters. And that was really, really good for our marriage. We've learned so much walking through those muddy waters and jumping ship wasn't gonna fix anything, but changing our perspective and having a heavenly perspective is what helped us to continue to move forward. [Cody] To say as to God, yeah. I mean yeah, that's why we have Uriah, right? And Islie and, the baby in your belly. [Stacy] Baby on the way. [Cody] Yeah, it's because we said yes to God, because you didn't want to have more kids. And part of our, a really pivotal part of our story was I went to a bible study with the fellowship that I'm currently at and it was incredibly pointed at sin and changing that day, that moment, that hour and leaving we prayed as men and we left that room a changed person. And I went home to my wife that night and I was encouraged by the other men. And I was gonna be held accountable to go and confess my sin to my wife, and I did. And God used that yes, to walk away and turn from my sin and confess it to my wife and repent. And ask for forgiveness. And through that, softened her heart for more children, and that's when we got pregnant with our second, Uriah. [Stacy] I feel like it might be actually really encouraging to our listeners if you share what that sin is and just explain to them because that is what softened my heart. [Cody] Yeah, so that Bible study we talked about sexual sin and lust and, specifically, pornography. And that was the confession that, as men, we were walking through. And so that was the confession that I had to make to Stacy that night that, if and when and how I had dabbled in that and to ask for forgiveness to change and I did. And God used that, and we got pregnant with Uriah that day, in fact, or whatever, the next couple days, however that works out, and so. [Aaron] Details. [Cody] Details. [Stacy] TMI. [Cody] And so praise the Lord for that, that was really awesome. [Stacy] And you know what's crazy is that I literally, after Rowan, did not want to have children for a good five years. I watched other parents around me who had big age gaps between their children, and I'm like that looks really nice, that looks so easy. They can still go to the gym, they can go to coffee shops when they want to. This selfish part of me really wanted that, I loved that idea. So Cody and I were very much against each other in our desire for more children and when that was gonna happen. And Cody coming to me and confessing one, his sin but also saying, babe, I have this strong desire for more children, like right away, and I don't see a reason that we need to be waiting. I had the opportunity to submit to my husband and ultimately, submit to the Lord in that. And I chose to and it was so beautiful, and now we have four babies. [Cody] Yeah, four on the way. [Jennifer] What a great testimony of what unconditional love can look like in a marriage. [Aaron] And when, again going back to the purpose conversation, the only, not the only, but one of the reasons you were able to walk in freedom from that sin, which we just did a podcast together about this, and we, Cody, you and I have the same story on how God got a hold of our hearts and showed us that we can walk in the freedom that he's already given us on the cross, but recognizing the purpose. That it's not just you going to your wife to avoid the shaming guilt you feel, like get that fixed. Like, here, my shame and my guilt I feel I wanna get that fixed so can you forgive me? 'Cause I feel shameful. No, it was, this is keeping me from having a fruitful and powerful ministry with my wife. [Cody] Yeah. [Aaron] And this is keeping me from having a fruitful and powerful and close relationship with God. Therefore, I'm going to go and repent. Because I don't want to be that man anymore, I want to be the man that God has made me to be. [Cody] That's right. [Aaron] And so having the purpose in mind, it draws out of us and draws us in the direction that God wants us and that's purity and to holiness and into authority and power to do the things that he has for us to do. [Jennifer] And I feel like I have to highlight for the wife, Stacy, because you knew the purpose, you could then hear that confession and you had a choice to make, and it sounds like you chose reconciliation and then, even on top of that, submission to a desire that your husband had for more children. And I just, again, wanna say this is so beautiful to know that a husband and wife can walk faithfully even amidst the muddy waters like you mentioned earlier. Walk faithfully to what God has called us to do, driven by this purpose that he has for marriage. [Aaron] And at the end of the day, the purpose is that we love God and we want to please Him and Him only, but in doing that, in chasing our Father we go where he's going, right? And that's the end game is what is God doing? What's His mission in this world? What's He already been doing since before time began, right? And we're told in the Bible that we're now ministers of reconciliation in this world and you guys got to practice that in your own marriage. [Stacy] Yeah, that's so beautiful. [Aaron] Right? And then what happens is walking in that holiness and that purity and no longer just jumping right back in the mud all the time and always being right there. Going back to that idea of we're always focused in word oh, well we're back in that sin again. Oh, we're all back in that sin again. And never moving forward, it's just there and that's exactly where the enemy wants us is-- [Jennifer] Ineffective. [Aaron] Ineffective, which we're gonna talk about in a later-- [Jennifer] Next episode. [Aaron] Oh, it's next episode. But recognizing that He has a purpose, recognizing that He wants a close relationship with us, that He wants us to walk in purity and all of those truths make it easier. Now, it doesn't mean it's easy but it makes it easier for us to do the things that he's called us to, obedience. Which is confession and walking in righteousness and ministering to the lost and loving your brothers and sisters in Christ. And we've seen you do all of these things in your life. and I didn't know you before, before we met you of course, because I haven't met you yet. [Cody] Traveling to Damascus Road-But I-- [Stacy] You didn't follow us on social media? [Aaron] But I know you, seeing from where you were to where you guys are today, we can see how your guys' pursuit of God and your chasing after him and your desire to want what He desires has changed you in your marriage has changed you in your relationship with your friends, is making you guys awesome parents. [Jennifer] Can you guys just share what do you guys feel has had the biggest impact in your life as you've chased after God? [Stacy] Oh, it's easy. [Jennifer] When you think about the growth-- [Aaron] She's got the answer, there you go. [Cody] I'm so happy for you to go. [Stacy] Oh no, we just talked about this. A biblical community, that has been-- [Cody] Oh yeah. [Stacy] The biggest I think factor for us is just having people walking alongside of us, encouraging us, holding us accountable, and-- [Cody] To scripture. [Stacy] To scripture, yes exactly. Not to what you think and think is the right way or a good way because you read this book or that book but because that's what scripture says. [Aaron] And I would agree. Close, true biblical Christian fellowship has been pivotal-- [Jennifer] Pivotal. [Aaron] In our walks with Christ. [Cody] Yeah. [Aaron] So yeah, that's, we agree. [Stacy] Sweet. [Cody] Agreed. [Aaron] So, I love that you brought up Christian fellowship and we're talking about purpose for marriage and one of the things that we draw out in the book is the picture that marriage is, the reason God gave us marriage. And you guys know this biblically, what is the bride represent? [Cody] The body of Christ, the Church. [Aaron] It represents the Church. And he calls the bride he says that he's returning for a white bride, a clean bride-- [Stacy] Pure. [Aaron] A pure bride. [Jennifer] Just like any bride listening right now is thinking yeah, I know what that took. [Aaron] Yeah, and so, but what's awesome, the community aspect, in our marriage, the wife, represents the Church and the husband represents Christ, where a picture of that to the world. So walking in close Christian fellowship, which again is something we're gonna talk about on a later episode. [Cody] Yeah, that one'll be good. [Aaron] And it's just so beautiful seeing it played out on the microscale in our marriage but then seeing it applied in the local fellowship, the body of Christ. And then globally as a church. Like this is why we're doing this podcast, this is why we wrote this book. Our hope is to encourage the whole body of Christ to recognize that we are the bride of Christ. That our unity and our oneness with Christ is vital and it's required, and it's our gift. It's our gift that we are apart of the body of Christ. We are the bride of Christ, he's returning for us and again, it just excites us that we get to participate in that, and we get to benefit from it. We get to be the beneficiaries of obedience. And in walking and being part of the body. So, I 100 percent agree that close Christian fellowship is just, it's another way that we minister to the world 'cause that get to see our unity. And it changes us and it grows us and we benefit from it. So, Amen. [Cody] Amen [Jennifer] So, while you guys are on the podcast, is there anything that is on your hearts right now that you think husbands and wives need to hear, something you want to encourage them with? [Cody] Yeah, absolutely. I would say that if you haven't caught this through the podcast and the things that we've shared today, it's humility, probably and just submission to, first of all the scripture in Christ and then, secondly, to each other. And to elevate your spouse always above yourself. And in all of our marriage battles and victories, the victory comes through submission and through humility, and through repentance. And so, I think no matter where you're at in your marriage, whether you're married for one year or 10 years like we're about to be, that's a battle that doesn't end and it has to continue through your entire marriage. But just continued submission to each other, continued heartfelt passion just to elevate your spouse above herself and to care for their needs and to care for their desires, and to care for their heart, just like Ephesians 5:22 through 30 describes. And so for us, that's been pivotal even today. Literally today, we talked about that Scripture as we prayed together this morning when we walked through what we talked about. And so, yeah, so submitting to each other and to Christ. [Aaron] So the last question we're gonna ask, and it's gonna be the question we're gonna ask every person we interview, and there's no wrong answer, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Stacy] Yeah, good question. I would say that a marriage after God is obedience, submitting to God's Word and Cody just did a really great job explaining that a minute ago from Ephesians 5:22 through 33, or 30? Yes, marriage after God is obedient, it's submissive to His word. [Jennifer] I love that and in order for us to be obedient, we have to know the word, we have to be in the word. So that would be an encouragement for everyone listening today, and just a reminder for us because we all need it, we all need to be reminded and hopefully were in it daily, and chasing after God by knowing him, by knowing his word, yeah. [Aaron] So Cody, Stacy we love you guys. We thank you for being our guinea pigs and starting out this series with us. We appreciate your your honesty, and my prayer is that your story, your testimony, your faithfulness is ministering right now to those listening. And I believe it is. And so, what we're gonna do is we're just gonna close in prayer, so join me. [Cody] Cool. [Aaron] Dear Lord thank you for marriage and thank you for creating it with intentionality and with purpose. May we walk humbly with each other as we choose to actively fulfill this purpose. May we be husbands and wives who know confidently how you are using marriage to reflect your perfect love to this lost world. Mature us O Lord and use us to encourage growth in each other so that we continue to be more and more fruitful. We pray others would see the fruit of your spirit in our lives. May our obedience to live out all that you have commanded impacts our marriage, impacts our families and impacts the world in an extraordinary way. May we be faithful servants who build your kingdom and not our own. May we say yes to you to participate in all the wonderful opportunities you invite us to do for you. Give us courage and fill our heart with strength as we chase boldly after you together. In Jesus name Amen. [Jennifer] Amen. [Cody] Amen. [Aaron] All right, so thank you everyone for listening to this week's episode, to the first episode in our Marriage After God series. We want to invite you please, please go pick up a book today, marriagaeftergod.com. My wife and I wrote this for you, and all these interviews we're gonna be doing over the next 15 weeks are about the book. And the whole purpose is to encourage you in your faith and in your marriage and the purpose God has for you. So we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at arriageaftergod.com. And let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Support the Marriage After God podcast by checking out our online store and resources. https://shop.marriageaftergod.com “If you will live like no one else, later you can live like no one else.” ― Dave Ramsey 1 Corinthians 10:24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. How do you view debt that one person brought into the marriage as “ours” especially when the two of you are on different pages about spending before the debt is paid off? What do you recommend in terms of building multiple streams of income? Publish a book - https://bookworthy.com Start a small business based off skills or resources you and your husband have Photography Painting We know many people who have made a decent income off youngliving. How do you both feel about taking risks financially? Such as investing in something that might cost a lot but also make money in the future. Luke 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? James 4:13-17 Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. Do you make a college fund for your children? If so how much do you add to it each month? How do you feel about mortgages? We are debt-free but live in NYC and seems you can’t own a home without a mortgage. Is that still debt-free? How do we not touch savings? How to tithe when financially struggling? What is your take on separate bank accounts in marriage? The bible speaks very specifically to this question Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:8, Ephesians 5:31 The 2 shall become one. When budgeting do you allow for a savings amount for birthday gifts food ect or does it all come out of general? What percentage of the budget should be allowed for food? Assuming all food or going out? How much is a realistic amount to save each week? My husband and I are in so much debt. We don’t know how to budget. Any advice? We want to be debt-free and not living paycheck to paycheck. We have 3 boys. How should we decide what they can and can’t do because of the budget? they love sports must ect. What do you do for health ins we are self-employed would love to hear what you do. How do you navigate financial stress as a team? What do you guys use for a budget? How do you budget with kids, one income, and a stay at home mom? I want to be a stay at home mom but we are not sure we can afford it. What should we do? Do you have any advice on seeing if you are ready to go to a one income household? How do you prepare to go to one income with a second baby? Dear Lord, Thank You for everything You give to us. Thank You for our finances and thank You for our jobs so that we can provide for our families so that we can give back to You, and be generous with others. We pray we would be good stewards of all that You give to us, especially money. We pray we would be faithful to use our money the way You want us to. Help us to be united in our marriage in the way we spend, save, and give. Help us to make financial decisions with wisdom and with wise counsel. Please help us to live debt-free and may our lives be a testimony to others of Your faithfulness. May we be people who seek to use our finances to build your Kingdom! In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're gonna answer your questions about finances. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast, where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We have been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years, through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage and encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life, [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us on this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] First and foremost, we always want to invite you to leave a star rating on the podcast. It helps other people find the podcast, it helps people learn about the podcast, it gets us in the rankings so other people can find it, it's awesome. We'd appreciate if you could just scroll down to the bottom of the podcast app and hit a five-star rating, or actually whatever star rating you want to. And if you have time, you can leave us a text review. That'd be awesome. We read those, they encourage us, and we'd really appreciate that. [Jennifer] We also want you guys to know that this Marriage After God podcast is sponsored by our store, shop.marriageaftergod.com, and just to highlight one book bundle that we carry that we wrote for you guys is 31 Prayers for my Son and 31 Prayers for my Daughter, and we wrote these for you to help encourage your prayer life over your children, and we're really excited about these books and we wanted you to know about them. [Aaron] For the icebreaker question, Jennifer, what is one thing you would do today to get out of debt if we had debt? Because we're debt-free, but if we had debt today, what's thing you'd do right now to help us get out of debt? [Jennifer] Okay. I think the first thing that comes to my mind is I see a small piece of paper and I just write a number on it, let's say $100, and then I would take that day to go around the house and figure out what can I sell today, whether it's through Facebook Marketplace or through my friends, text messages, or whatever. What can I get rid of today to make that $100 and then send it straight to the debt? [Aaron] Okay, I like that. I'll one up you. I was thinking selling everything in the house. [Jennifer] You would. [Aaron] Well, because we have a lot of things and we don't realize how much money is just sitting in the house with your furniture, and through, I wouldn't be able to sell everything like our bed, but-- [Jennifer] No, you said everything. [Aaron] Well, okay. We could sleep on the floor, people sleep on the floor. [Jennifer] Aaron would sell everything. I on the other hand would just get rid of stuff we don't use. [Aaron] Well that's how we were when we were in debt, babe. [Jennifer] We had little. [Aaron] We had very little, but we did sell almost everything we had. I think that's what I would do. I would actually go through the house and I'd say "Okay, what can we get rid of?" And I'd probably, Dave Ramsey says it funny, he says, he says "Sell everything," and so that your kids wonder if they're next. [Jennifer] Oh my gosh, that's terrible. [Aaron] That drastic. Go through everything and get rid of everything. [Jennifer] Speaking of Dave Ramsey, we have a quote of the day by him. [Aaron] Yeah, it's if you will live like no one else, later you can live like no one else. [Jennifer] So you're living like no one else. That sounds like a Marriage After God right there. [Aaron] Yeah, it's true. It also reminds me of another quote that says if you want something you've never had, you gotta do something you've never done. I believe it's by Thomas Jefferson, but other people say they don't know who it's by. But the idea is that if you make choices today that no one else is making, everyone chooses to be in debt, everyone chooses to spend money unwisely and just buy things and to use credit cards. Those are normal, everyone chooses that. But if we choose to live differently, [Jennifer] Radically. [Aaron] If we make choices like, well, this hurts and it's painful, but no one's doing this, what it does is it affords you a life that later on you can live like no one else is living. You make choices today that allow you to live a certain way later. [Jennifer] And I feel like that later comes so fast, just in the scheme of life. [Aaron] Life does fly by fast. [Jennifer] It might seem hard now, right, but this season is so short in comparison to the rest of later. [Aaron] Yeah, we have, I remember our season getting out of debt. In the middle of it, it was so daunting. [Jennifer] It seemed like a long, drawn-out thing. [Aaron] And it was like, this is never gonna get done. [Jennifer] But it wasn't. [Aaron] But now it's been behind us, what? [Jennifer] Eight, nine, ten years. [Aaron] Ten years. That was a long time ago. We've been debt-free for ten years now. [Jennifer] And we're living in the later. [Aaron] We're living in the later, so yeah, we get to live like no one else now because we made choices that no one else was making back then. And I remember people thinking we were weird. We didn't have much. We had actually nothing. But I wouldn't trade it. [Jennifer] Yeah, I don't regret being debt-free. [Aaron] We encourage other people all the time. We're gonna do it a lot in this episode actually. [Jennifer] Yeah, so speaking of this episode, we thought it would be fun to answer your guys' questions on finance. We pulled on Instagram Live and just asked you what kind of questions you guys had about money and budgeting and all kinds of things, so today's episode we are going to focus on your questions and trying to answer them. [Aaron] Yeah, so each one of these questions is from someone who follows us. And we're gonna, we don't have all the answers. [Jennifer] Nope. [Aaron] We will answer the best as we can, we'll answer with scripture if we can, we will answer from experience, and we might say we don't know on some of them. Because I'd rather say I don't know than make up an answer that is false. [Jennifer] Yeah, and just right off the bat if we want to give some resources that you guys can look up for more information about finances, we do really like Dave Ramsey and just his whole ministry on helping people get out of debt, [Aaron] He's helped a lot of people get out of debt. [Jennifer] Lead faithful lives in finances, so check him out, Financial Peace University is his thing. Also, Money Saving Mom is a great resource. She has a lot of good stuff, go check her out. [Aaron] Let's start this episode. I want to read some scripture to give us a foundation of why we should even care about our finances, our money, getting out of debt, all of those things. And it's found in 1 Corinthians 10, verses 24 through 27. "Do you not know that in a race, "all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? "So run that you may obtain it. "Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. "They do it to receive a perishable wreath. "But we, an imperishable. "So I do not run aimlessly. "I do not box as one beating the air, "but I discipline my body and keep it under control "lest after preaching to others "I myself should be disqualified." And what I love about this is Paul's saying, he's saying the race we're running is this race of faith, it's the race that we're running toward heaven and with God and with the Holy Spirit, and our prize is imperishable. We're not running to get a trophy, we're running for an imperishable prize which is eternity with God. And Paul says here, he says "I don't run aimlessly," meaning he's got a specific goal, he trains a certain way, he's thoughtful about it and he knows what he's doing. And then he says "I discipline my body "and keep it under control," and again, the purpose of this is so that in our preaching, we're not disqualified. The reason we talked about finances and getting out of debt and why these are important for the Christian to be aware of and to walk not aimlessly in is because we have a job to do in this world, and it's to preach the Gospel. And part of preaching the Gospel and not being disqualified is are we an example? Do we have self-control in all things? [Jennifer] Yeah, including finances. [Aaron] Including finances. Or are we taken under by our own debt and our own cravings and desires and "Oh, I want that new car or I want that, "or I want to eat out all the time," or whatever it is that sucks the money out of us and makes us incapacitated financially. Paul wants us to know that we shouldn't be running aimlessly so we should have a plan, we should have a goal, we should have purpose in mind, and he wants to remind us that the Gospel that we're preaching, we ourselves don't want to be disqualified after we've preached it, so we need to be disciplined and self-disciplined and self-controlled. I just that'd be a good place to start. [Jennifer] Yeah, I love it, it's really good, yeah. [Aaron] With this. It's actually why we got out of debt. It's part of our story. We left doing missions work. We're doing the Lord's work, we felt the Lord calling us home and saying "I want you debt-free so you can be free," and we went home. [Jennifer] But we had a goal. [Aaron] Yeah, we went home specifically to get out of debt, so everything we did was focused around getting out of debt. [Jennifer] And I felt like that word aimlessly really stands out to me, because I feel like, because I feel like it's really easy when you look at finances to almost avoid the hardship of finances or the things that weight us down, the stress that's involved, [Aaron] Yeah, pretend it's not there. [Jennifer] To pretend it's not there or to ignore it, which leads to being aimless. If you're not willing to face it and confront it, then the other option is to be aimless. [Aaron] Yeah, well there's no goal, you're floating, you're like "Well, I'm gonna," [Jennifer] Because if you have a goal, then you're gonna be forced to look at what you have and say "Okay, this is how I get from point A to point B." [Aaron] Yep, and we have to write those goals down too. We've just been talking about lists lately. And if you write it down, it becomes real. Just a quick tip, write down your goals, how much you want to pay off, when, when do you plan on getting out of debt, and then start hitting those goals and doing everything you can to hit them. [Jennifer] And even if you have a specific strategy and you guys figure out how you're gonna do it, write that down too. [Aaron] Yep. Okay, let's go right into question number one. [Jennifer] Okay, is there any rhyme or reason with any of these? [Aaron] No, it looks like you just put them in order from what you received them. [Jennifer] Okay, let's do it. [Aaron] How do you view debt that one person brought into the marriage as ours, especially when the two of you are on different pages about spending before the debt is paid off? [Jennifer] Oh man, I feel like we answered this really good in our book, Marriage After God, because we share our different perspectives of money and the value it had in our lives, how we spent it, and this idea of debt. [Aaron] This was us. Whose debt did we have when we got married? [Jennifer] Well, I believed it was yours. It had your name written on it. But God had to teach me the lesson of what it meant to be ours. [Aaron] Yeah, and you married me, debt and all. You married me, sin and all. And we don't get to marry someone but only choose the parts of them that we're going to walk with and be one with. Now, when we have sin, those are things that need to be changed and repented of. Even the debt needs to be dealt with. There's things that need to be dealt with, but we deal with it together. [Jennifer] Yeah, so to answer this question how do you view debt that one person brought in? View it as ours, so assume that responsibility as now ours, both of you working to do it, because I'll tell you what, it wasn't until God changed my heart and I received Him changing my heart on it being our debt that we actually were able to make change in knocking it off. [Aaron] Think about it, if you would have expected me just to deal with it, while you're spending how you want. It was our money, right? [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] But then if you spend it how you want, it would have made it that much harder for me to deal with it. [Jennifer] Yeah, you probably wouldn't have been able to get out of debt. [Aaron] I would say yeah, ours, and then it says if we're on different pages of spending, [Jennifer] Get on the same page. [Aaron] The reason you're in debt and having a hard time paying debt off is because you're on different pages about finances. [Jennifer] Yeah, get on the same page. That means that both of you are gonna have to make sacrifices to stay on that same page when it comes to spending, saving, paying off debt, all of it. [Aaron] Yeah, and a quick tip, make a rule. We made a rule, if there was anything over $25, we had to immediately bring it to, but when we were getting out of debt, we actually talked about everything that we spent. [Jennifer] Yeah, everything went to that. [Aaron] But now, we have rules about if it's gonna cost so much, we actually ask permission. What happens though is it keeps us both accountable to what we're spending, that it's not just like "Oh, I accidentally spent $600, sorry," that doesn't happen. [Jennifer] Okay, I think we answered that one pretty good. Number two, what do you recommend in terms of building multiple streams of income? [Aaron] This is a cool question. [Jennifer] I also feel like in this day and age I feel like there is a lot of opportunity. [Aaron] Oh, we have infinite opportunities. People make money just on social media by not even selling anything, they just they post for other people and they make money. [Jennifer] Why do you think it's a cool question? [Aaron] Well because we did this. The way we got out of debt was we started a photography business. [Jennifer] Yeah, we used our resources of what we had, which was a camera. [Aaron] We used our passion for photography and we had resources in relationships. We knew someone getting married and we were like "Hey, can we shoot your wedding?" And they said "Sure," they needed a photographer, they didn't have much money. Actually, we did that for free, they bought us a flash or something. [Jennifer] Yeah, I think the very first wedding we shot, we shot together for a flash, which she had to buy for us before the wedding. [Aaron] Yeah, and then I think we charged like $400, and I think it was like $600, and then it was like 850. [Jennifer] Each job that we got, we just, yeah, increased. [Aaron] Well we made a rule. We're like "Every job, we're gonna increase a little bit." Until eventually we were making $1,200, $1,500 a wedding, and we were working Saturdays and Sundays, shooting families and weddings while working full-time jobs during the week. [Jennifer] It was crazy town. [Aaron] Now I want to say we had no kids back then. [Jennifer] Yeah, so we were able to. [Aaron] It would definitely look different today with having kids. But it is still possible. A couple of ideas we've had. [Jennifer] Well for starters just like you said about the seasons thing, I think it's really important for couples to know that if you're gonna go into a season of hard work, meaning either both of you or one of you is heavily working, there just needs to be an end date where you're saying "Okay, we're gonna sprint this season," [Aaron] Yeah, this next six months we're gonna work this hard. [Jennifer] We're gonna work this hard and that way expectations are set and nobody can get mad at each other, and then there's a season of rest. Don't forget to give yourself that season of rest. [Aaron] Yeah, because you'll, if you just get it working nights and weekends, [Jennifer] You'll burn out. [Aaron] And all day, you'll want-- [Jennifer] Your family will burn out. [Aaron] You don't want to do that. It's a good reminder, and that's how we've always looked at it, we did the photography thing for a season, it was a year and a half that we did it and we crushed hard at that, we were doing so much. By the end of it we hated weddings. [Jennifer] But it was fun. [Aaron] It was super fun, and really hard. We got out of debt though. The idea is, we have a few ideas. The first one that we have is publish a book. We make a living now off of books that we've published. And we learned how to do it on our own, but one of the little things we started a while ago is called bookworthy.com, it's a course Jennifer and I made, teaching people how to self-publish, so if you're interested and if you're a writer, if you have children the book idea, if you do art or photography, publish a book, you might be able to make a little bit of money on Amazon. It's actually free to do as long as you have all the time and energy and the talent to do it. Another one is start a small business based off skills or resources you and your husband have. Like our photography business. [Jennifer] Yeah, another one would be painting. If you like to paint, you can sell canvases of different things that you like to paint. [Aaron] Yeah, or if you have some tools for painting. I've known people to paint houses and make really good money on the weekends. Doing handyman work, there's so many things that we have skill-wise that we don't realize is actually valuable. There's someone who needs what we have. Maybe as a couple write down the resources, the talents, the skills that you have and see how those can make money. [Jennifer] And you can utilize places like Etsy.com as a venue to sell your stuff. [Aaron] Yeah, we know someone that they just were really good at sewing little bows and start an Etsy store and sell a bunch of bows! [Jennifer] We also have people who've made a lot of money off, there's a lot of companies out there that have great models. Things like Young Living. [Aaron] Yeah, they've made it really easy to sell anything. Those are just some ideas. There's so many, so many ways to do it. But having a small business or doing some sort of side jobs it's how we paid off all of our debt. And it does add levels of complexity to your life, but it's totally doable, and it's sometimes the only way to get out of debt. If your normal job doesn't afford your enough financial liquidity to pay off debt, doing a side business for a while or a side job can definitely do that. [Jennifer] Okay, moving on to number three. How do you both feel about taking risks financially? Such as investing in something that might cost a lot up front, but also make money in the future. Which there's no guarantee. Let's just be straightforward. [Aaron] We always get told that, like this is a no-brainer, you just gotta start it. We always tell ourselves the best-case scenario and we don't think practically through it, so I just wanted to read Luke 14:28 says "For which of you, desiring to build a tower, "does not first sit down and count the cost, "whether he has enough to complete it?" And I just wanted to remind us that wisdom should tell us "Okay, that sounds like a great idea, yes," because it could totally be profitable to spend a little bit of money now, if you could figure out that it's going to double or triple or whatever. But we gotta count the cost. What's the time investment it's gonna take? What's the financial investment it's gonna take? How long will it take to return that? How much time is it gonna take to maintain and build and grow? Those are all things that we have to think about when trying to take a financial risk. And then the, we've done this before. We've been really frugal in the past and avoided any sort of risk and we've also made mistakes in risk. And what would you say is the better side of it? [Jennifer] Well like you said, counting the cost. I think it's always really important that we sit down and figure out how this will benefit our family or how this will hurt our family, and I think the times that we've made mistakes or the times that we don't really count the cost, [Aaron] Yeah, and we rush into things. That's been my fault, many a times. [Jennifer] Well, I wasn't going to point the finger. [Aaron] Yeah it's all right. [Jennifer] I was gonna say out of the two of us or how, because the question is how do you both feel about it, how do you feel about taking risks financially? What's your process? [Aaron] I'm usually pretty safe, but I have made mistakes and it always comes back to I don't fully think through it, I tell myself the best-case scenario, and often it's a rush. And so now we have these rules of it's a rush, it's a no. For the most part. There's been times, but usually if it's a rush, it's a no. [Jennifer] Yeah, when I think about this question, I think "Well, if it's a risk for some sort of investment "or stocks or something like money-wise that way," I always get really nervous and I'm like "Nope, I won't do it," but when it comes to a risk of taking a risk on someone or somebody's talent, one of ours, something that we have a dream to do, that's easier for me to say yes to, even if we waste a lot of money doing it. I don't know why, but there's something in my heart that just says "Let's go for that." [Aaron] Yeah, and if it could be a slow and minimal risk, that's always, what we try and do is like how can we make this as little of risk as possible? Like if we're gonna work with a new company that's gonna print our books or advertise for us, or whatever it is. It's all risk, technically, because they can mess up. You could buy the wrong thing, you could spend the wrong money, it just-- [Jennifer] Would you say that it would be wise to also seek counsel on certain decisions, like maybe those close friends that you have, or-- [Aaron] Oh 100%. Getting many wise counselors around you is the way we do battle and we win battles. I just wanted to read one more scripture on this. James 4:13-17 says: "Come now, you who say, "today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town "and spend a year there and trade and make a profit "yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. "What is your life? "For you are a mist that appears "for a little time and then vanishes. "Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that. "As it is, you boast in your arrogance. "All such boasting is evil. "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, "for him it is sin." I just wanted to bring this up because the other side of this is to remember that we have no control over tomorrow. We don't know. I could invest today and the Lord can come tomorrow. We can, doesn't mean not to, but James is telling us less have a heart of like "Well if the Lord wills it." We're gonna work, we're gonna plan, we're going to count the costs, we're gonna get counsel, we're gonna figure things out, but to be honest, if the Lord wants it to happen or not. [Jennifer] The other thing I want to add to this section about taking financial risks is you guys gotta be in unity when taking financial risks and don't, not at the cost of your marriage. I don't want people to jump into making decisions that, one spouse is for it, one spouse isn't. I really think that there needs to be unity whenever you advance in making decisions like this. [Aaron] That's a good point. Be in complete unity, have peace about it and I would say lastly, you should not taking a financial risk unless you have some extra money to play with. [Jennifer] To risk. [Aaron] If you're literally not being able to buy groceries to risk this, that's not a good strategy. [Jennifer] That's good. [Aaron] It may mean sell some more things and say "Okay, we have this extra $1,000, "we can put it towards debt or we can start this thing, "but that $1,000, if it's gone or not gone, "isn't gonna hinder your family from being taken care of." [Jennifer] That's good, I'm glad you mentioned that. Okay, number four. Do you make a college fund for your children? If so, how much do you add to it each month? [Aaron] Do we have a college fund? [Jennifer] No. Short answer, no. Do we have a little bit of savings if they needed it? Sure, but we also want to encourage our kids, just in their future we talk about college. We want to encourage them to be hard workers, that if they needed to pay for their own college they could. [Aaron] Yeah, and teaching them the abilities that they have and how they can make money. We have an IRA that we put money into that could be used for school, but we don't necessarily have a direct college fund. [Jennifer] And do we put money in it every month? [Aaron] We don't put money in every month, we put it, for a while we were but we adjust that based off of how our income is. The next question is how do you feel about mortgages? Well I hate mortgages. [Jennifer] Everybody does. [Aaron] Who likes mortgages? [Jennifer] This is specifically, this couple was asking because they say "We are debt-free but live in NYC and it seems like "you can't own a home without a mortgage. "Is that still being debt-free?" Having a mortgage? [Aaron] Well technically no, because you're in debt. But some people would say "Well it's good debt, "because it appreciates." Well sure, as long the market is appreciating. There's again, you don't know what tomorrow's gonna bring. [Jennifer] I feel like for the majority most people would say it doesn't fall under the debt-free title. [Aaron] Yeah again, so we bought a house. We got a mortgage and we did the normal thing, but we had been debt-free for seven years before buying a house. There's a season actually leading up to like six years into our debt-free-ness I didn't even want to buy a house because I didn't want to get in debt again. But you know, things change and we made a different decision and our goal was to treat that debt the same way we treated the other debt. Again, you have to count the costs and you have to make the decision that way and get wise counsel. Can you afford it? And then, because the way I looked at it is I was paying X amount of dollars for rent anyway, so if I could pay that to something I'm gonna own, that's why we decided to buy a house finally. [Jennifer] We actually put a stipulation on it. You said we're not gonna, we're not gonna even look for a home to buy if the mortgage isn't less than what we're paying for rent. [Aaron] Yeah, that was a, man, because when we were looking it gets so easy to start looking outside your range. [Jennifer] Yeah and you keep going up and up. [Aaron] Like "Well it's only another 10,000, "well, this is nicer." I don't know. [Jennifer] Are you repeating me? [Aaron] No! That's my inside voice, I don't know. But I did, I made us a hard stipulation. I said "I don't want to buy a house "that mortgage's gonna be more than our current rent." And we did, we actually hit that. It took us a long time and it was really frustrating at times. [Jennifer] And we had to be patient, but I would just like the other questions I would say you guys have to be in unity if you are gonna go into that mortgage. [Aaron] Yeah and count the costs, it's gonna be an investment that you have to put your own blood, sweat, and tears into. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] All right, cool, let's move on. How do we not touch savings? It's a pretty short question. [Jennifer] Bury it really deep in the backyard. [Aaron] If this is a self-control thing, then you need to learn self-control. Like if you're just dipping in because you wanted to go out to eat or if you want to buy that thing-- [Jennifer] Have that coffee. [Aaron] That's, you're never gonna be able to save if that's how you are. If it's a problem with you can't pay your rent, dip into savings. [Jennifer] That's what it's there for. [Aaron] Yeah, that's what it's there for. I would say just practice. Give yourself goals. Say "We're gonna save to this dollar amount, "and if we do, we'll celebrate by spending a little bit, "1% of it." [Jennifer] That's a good idea. [Aaron] And that way you're helping yourself, training yourself to go longer without dipping into your savings, and you have a goal you're gonna hit. [Jennifer] Yeah, cool. Okay, number seven. How do you tithe when you're financially struggling? [Aaron] How did we do it? [Jennifer] Sowe lived pretty radically, we still tithed even though we were struggling financially. We believed that everything that we got was God's and we gave it back to him. [Aaron] All of it. Nobut we had this, I believed that generosity and giving and tithing were spiritual disciplines and I believed that I wanted to trust God. And I remember telling us, I said "Hey, the only place in the Bible that God tells His people "to test Him is in the Old Testament," and He tells His people, He goes "Bring all the tithe "to the storehouse," when He's talking about the temple. [Jennifer] In Micah? [Aaron] Yeah, and He says "See that I will not open the floodgates of heaven," [Jennifer] Or was it Malachi? [Aaron] Oh, it's Malachi I think you're right. It's the last book of the Old Testament. And He just challenges them to challenge Him. Like "Hey, you do what you have been supposed to be doing "for all of these generations that you haven't been doing it "and I will pour out my blessing on my people." Now that was talking to the Jews, but God hasn't changed. And so I looked at God and I said "I want to give. "I want to be a giver, I want to be generous, "I want to be a tither." And what was awesome is a couple things happened. We were able to give and be generous, and it also changed our perspectives on money. [Jennifer] Yeah, we didn't hold it so tightly. [Aaron] Which is the whole point of giving anyway, of knowing it's all God's. We actually, while we were trying to get out of debt, we made it a challenge to ourselves to see how much we could give. What is funny is it kept us from giving ourselves pretty much anything. We just had enough to live on and not only were we able to pay our debt off, but we were also able to give more than we ever were able to give. Not that that made us any more righteous or anything, it was our own personal challenge and it was pretty awesome to see that God still provided, God grew what we were able to give, and decreased our debt as we were faithful. [Jennifer] Yeah, I think one of the things we wanted to avoid too was, well once we were out of debt and we have money, is it gonna be harder for us to give then? You know what I mean? We wanted to build that habit-- [Aaron] Well because the mentality's always like "Oh I'll give when I have more," and I have a scripture to reference for this, but once I have more, that's when I'll give. And we're not giving this as a command to anyone. You have to choose in your heart and decide in your heart what you're gonna give and how you're gonna give as a family, and that you are, at any level of giving, are you gonna trust God? Are you gonna seek Him and are you gonna be wise with your money? Because that's what He wants from us. He wants us to be wise, not just frivolous and like "I'm just gonna throw it away, here's that, "and oh, I can't pay rent now," no, be wise. If you want to give, pray and ask how you guys can give and ask God to change your hearts on what money means to you and where it goes and when it goes. And the verse I wanted to bring up about this is in Mark 12 and it's about this Jesus recognizing how two different kinds of people are giving and he says "And he sat down opposite the treasury "and watched the people putting money into the offering box. "Many rich people put in large sums. "And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, "which make a penny. "And He called His disciples to Him and said to them "Truly I say to you, this poor widow has put in more "than all these who are contributing to the offering box, "for they all contributed out of their abundance, "but she, out of her poverty, has put in everything she had, "all she had to live on." And so just that mentality of once we have more then we'll give, Jesus is showing us in this picture, he's saying "Actually, she gave more out of her poverty "because she didn't have much to give but she still gave." Knowing that, if we have the mentality of one day we'll give when we have more isn't the right mentality to have. The right mentality to have is like "God is yours, teach me. "Teach me how to use it. "Where do you want it?" [Jennifer] Okay, number eight. What is your take on separate bank accounts and marriage? [Aaron] Well I think there's a scripture that speaks clearly to this, and it's in Genesis 2:24, Matthew 19:5, Mark 10:8, Ephesians 5:31. [Jennifer] Hold on, those are a lot of verses. [Aaron] Oh, well they all say the same thing. It says the two shall become one. Our take is that it should just be, there's one place that money goes, it's our money, and we use it for God's Kingdom. [Jennifer] And having the one bank account, it helps you in building that oneness and that unity and practicing and walking it out on a daily basis. [Aaron] Yeah so our perspective is you share a bank account. Now we have a savings account, we have a few accounts, but there's not her money, my money. [Jennifer] No, we all have access and we all put into it and we all take out of it and we talk about it a lot. [Aaron] Yeah. Number nine, when budgeting, do you allow for a savings amount for birthday gifts, food, et cetera, or does it all come out of general? [Jennifer] Okay, so how we would do this is we would have in our budgeting we would account for food and even going out to eat, but then we'd just have a general fund where those kinds of things came out of. Birthday gifts and random things. [Aaron] Yeah, we called it our personal allowance, which was after we broke down all of our budget, whatever was left, which was usually nothing. Sometimes it was a little bit. But yeah, we've never been that specific, but you can totally get that specific. I know people that have broke their budget as specific as you can imagine. [Jennifer] Yeah, and I know having the app on our phone, the bank app has helped, because you'll check right there as we're checking out in line, making sure that we can afford that birthday gift or whatever it is extra that we were paying. [Aaron] If I have to transfer from savings or something like that. What's number 10? [Jennifer] Number 10 is what percentage of the budget should be allowed for food, assuming that they're talking about all food or just going out, I'm not really sure, but, [Aaron] If you're in debt and you're trying to get out of debt and you're trying to save money, you just probably should not eat out. It's way more expensive and if you're going somewhere that's cheaper than a restaurant, it's probably not healthy. Eat at home, it's cheaper, you can buy in bulk, you can organize it so your budget for food, our budget was always just food. And if we ate out, it came out of that budget, which hurt us because you have this eating out bill and then it took away from your groceries for that week. [Jennifer] Yeah, recently I was following someone on Instagram who posted a screenshot of a breakdown of what percentage of your budget should be for food, depending on your family size, and I thought it was really interesting. I don't remember exactly where she got it from but if you just Googled it, it would show up. [Aaron] Yeah, and the way you can do this is go grocery shopping, and figure out what your normal grocery shopping list is and that's your budget. If you need to break down your grocery shopping budget more and you can find, like, well we don't need to get cereals this time, or pick the things that are less necessary or figure out how to buy things in bulk, but definitely if you're trying to save money and get out of debt, grocery shopping, buying in bulk, freezing stuff is gonna be the best way to go and eating out should probably be put on the back burner for a while. [Jennifer] That's funny, back burner, because we're talking about making food at home. Don't forget about it, don't let it burn! Just kidding. Okay, number eleven. How much is a realistic amount to save each week? [Aaron] This is gonna be unique before we've seen a person's budget. To be honest, we didn't save a penny. [Jennifer] Until we were out of debt and beyond that. [Aaron] Yeah, my perspective on it is why are we saving money when we could be putting that money towards debt? Once we were out of debt, we started thinking about savings differently, but again, that's gonna be dependent on your income, where you're at, how much debt you have, and figuring out whatever percentage of your income can be saved, yeah. Number 12, my husband and I are in so much debt. We don't know how to budget. Any advice, we want to be debt-free and not living paycheck to paycheck. My advice to this couple is get on the same page, start talking about it, get real. We have to recognize that we can't just play with these things. If you need to stop eating out, there's areas that you're spending money that you shouldn't. If it means finding a better job, start looking. Maybe your second job you have is looking for a better job. If you're only making ends meet on this current job, you're not getting enough hours, look for a better one. Right now we're in the best economy if you're looking for a job. And I know that's easier said than done, but sometimes you just need to pull the Band-Aid off and realize, "Okay, this sore's not getting healed. "We need to sit down, we need to write down everything. "Every penny, where it goes. "We need to start selling everything we have. "We need to start just," boil your life down to what you need and scramble to get out of debt. [Jennifer] Also we shouldn't neglect the power of prayer. I feel like there have been so many testimonies from our friend's life and just our life of praying for our specific needs. What kind of job do you have and do you need that God could be fulfilling for you given the opportunity to open your eyes and show you and give you exactly what you need? [Aaron] And then start looking actively. Send resumes. Now don't tell your current job that you're doing that, because they might fire you, but that's what I would do. I would start looking today. Number 13, we have three boys. How should we decide what they can and can't do because of the budget? They love sports, music, et cetera. [Jennifer] Okay, so again, going back to the unity I feel like you and your husband, you and your spouse need to be on the same page about what the budget can allot for, where is there room to do stuff, and if the budget for that season doesn't, doesn't have room for those extra things, it's gonna be hard, but you have to be able to say no and you just have to explain to your family what that means. [Aaron] Yeah, and our kids are not gonna fall apart, become less of citizens in this country and immoral because they don't do sports. We sometimes have those draws of like "Well if they don't do these things, "they're gonna miss out on," but we have to remember, there's so many other ways that our kids will learn. Whatever skills they can learn in those sports or those activities. [Jennifer] And don't forget that they're also learning the discipline of being a good start with finances, and this is part of learning and they'll have to know that in life, there's seasons when you can't do as much, and that has to be okay. [Aaron] Think about this, that sports is like a team sport thing, right? Getting out of debt's a team sport. Your children are in your family, they're on your team, and they need to be a part of that. And you can bring them in and you can say "Well, guys, we're gonna go through a season "that's gonna be hard, but we're gonna do it together." [Jennifer] Yeah, here's the downside if you're not doing it together. Let's say, let's say mom is pushing for the team sports and dad's saying "Well, we can't afford it this time," what are the children gonna see? They're gonna see division in the marriage, they're gonna see-- [Aaron] Yeah, and they'll react to that. [Jennifer] And they'll react to it and then they also may start to favor the parent who's for them and for what the things that they want to do. [Aaron] Or worse become bitter towards the other parent. [Jennifer] Or become bitter towards the other parent. And we want to avoid that. At Marriage After God, understands the power of unity and doesn't lose sight of that. [Aaron] Yeah, and so being on the same page again, as a couple, so that our children see our unity and strength and they will learn more from that than they'll learn probably from any sport in my opinion. [Jennifer] Okay, number 14. What do you do for health insurance? We are self-employed and we'd love to hear what you do. [Aaron] For a long time, we were on, what was that company called? It was not, Samaritan's Purse is one of them, yeah, it was called MediShare. It's a Christian healthcare, it's a shared thing where you put money in and that money helps other people in their bills and vice versa. We did that for a while, actually. There's MediShare and then there's Samaritan's Purse and I know there's a couple others, but just look for Christian shared health plans. [Jennifer] Number 15 is how do you navigate financial stress as a team? What are some ways, practical ways, that we can help each other when there's financial stress? [Aaron] Lots of conversations about what's going on. Planning together, writing things down, prayer, and just constantly reminding each other that we're gonna get through it together, that we're gonna do it together, that we're gonna make choices together, and not getting off, out of hand and sneaking around and spending money over here or making choices over here behind each other's backs, but actually-- [Jennifer] Or arguing about it, right, in front of everyone. [Aaron] Or arguing about it, yeah, which has happened. But yeah, just that team, doing it together. Having the conversations at night, putting the strategies in place. [Jennifer] I think too, a huge win would be reminding each other of the future. We started out the episode, that later, living life later, what does that look like? [Aaron] We did this a lot. [Jennifer] Yeah, so envision for each other what that future looks like and enjoy that moment right then and there. [Aaron] Well and recognize like "Hey, what we're doing right now is gonna give us "something else, it's gonna give us something better, "the fruit it's gonna bear is gonna be good," and so that's such a good reminder, because we did that. Because it was so hard at times, right in the middle of it, you're like "Gosh, this is just too hard," to be like "Hey, but just know in a few years, "this is gonna be so far behind us, "and we're gonna be able to make choices "that we weren't able to make before, "and it's gonna feel so good and freeing," so yeah, as a team, just reminding each other of what it's gonna do, working hard at these things. We got a few more. Why don't you let us know what the next? Okay, so we got a few more questions. Why don't you hit the next question for us. [Jennifer] Okay, number 16 is what do you guys use for a budget? Which if they don't know, Aaron does most of the budgeting, which I like, because I don't really have the mental space right now to do it. [Aaron] There's two parts to our budget. I'm gonna be honest, we don't focus on our budget as much as we used to, as micro as we used to. But we still use a lot of the general disciplines, but when we were getting out of debt, man, I was looking at that thing every single day. [Jennifer] Yeah, heightenly aware. [Aaron] Yeah, so what I did is I just created a Google Sheet, a spreadsheet, or you can use Microsoft, what's it called? Excel. And I literally wrote down on the sheet every single thing that we spend money on. I looked at our grocery bills to see how much we spent on groceries, I looked at our gas bills to see what our average was each month, and then I rounded them all up a little bit, because if it was like one month this high, one month it was low, I rounded them all up a little bit, and then I took the total and then I broke down by actual things that we owed, like bills, and then right there we found out what our budget was. It was like every month, to live, we needed $1,800 or $1,250 or whatever it was. And that was phone bill, that was gas, that was literally every single penny we had to spend to live. And then anything that was left over, I broke up in percentages. 10% to tithe, or 12%, whatever our number was, and then how much of it was gonna go to debt, actually no, so then whatever was left over I broke up into allowance and to tithe and savings. But for a while, allowance and savings was zero and tithe was the only thing that we had extra. That's how we did it, and the second part of it was we opened up several different bank accounts. One was our bills bank accounts, so every penny that was owed to bills for the month went into that account and all our bills were paid from it. And then we had our savings account, our tithe account, and our allowance account. And based off the spreadsheet, we just put the money, it's like the envelope system that Dave Ramsey does but we did it digitally. That's how we budgeted. [Jennifer] Okay, these next few which we're gonna wrap up with are all the same, so I'm gonna read them all and then we'll try and answer them. 17 is how do you budget with kids with one income and a stay at home mom? Number 18 is I want to be a stay at home mom, but we are not sure we can afford it. What should we do? And number 19. Do you have any advice on seeing if you're ready to go to a one-income household? How do you prepare to go to one income with a second baby? All surrounding that, one income, stay at home mom, one kid or more, how do you budget? How do you do it? [Aaron] Well, strict. Get real strict. Frugality. Learning, finding all the tricks of the trade of how to save money, how to couponing, and where's the best place to grocery shop and getting hand-me-downs, clothes-wise and shopping at thrift stores if you need to. That's, to be honest I always think like "Why are we buying brand new clothes? "These kids grow out of them so fast." [Jennifer] Well we've saved a lot of ours. [Aaron] Yeah, we save our, oh, that's frugality. We buy something and then we save it, and all of our kids get the same clothes. [Jennifer] We needed new ones when Olive came along, because she's a girl. [Aaron] Just, there's so many resources out there. There's bloggers and YouTubers and Instagrammers that talk about this. And creating a strategy and praying through it, getting wisdom and advice, and then figuring out the process. [Jennifer] I think a really huge encouragement here would be if you're preparing to go to that one-income household and mom's gonna be staying at home or maybe mom's already home and there's another baby on the way and money just feels tight, in those seasons I would just encourage you to be reminded, both of you be reminded of your why. Why is mom staying at home? Because the ministry-- [Aaron] What's important for ya? [Jennifer] The ministry of raising children and managing a home and having attention there is so valuable. More valuable than having that extra income or having multiple streams of revenue just for the sake of building your guys' financial security, and I just want to encourage those moms who are at home who are just working so hard to be home with their kids and to have that type of lifestyle, even if it means forsaking an extra income. Find a way to make it work and be motivated because of that value. [Aaron] Yeah, and then going back to the living paycheck to paycheck, be praying and actively looking for a better paying job. Maybe it's gonna take some night school to learn a new skill, but work hard and let the family know that it's gonna be a hard season until this date when things will change, because I'm gonna be in school or looking for a new job or working a new job or a second job. And figure those things out. And I do want to say, our current world has made it exceedingly difficult to do family the way it's always been done. I just wanted to commiserate with that and I wanted to let everyone know to be praying through that and asking God to show them, and to reveal how they can make that happen in their home, if that's the desire they have. That's the end of our questions. [Jennifer] That wraps up the questions that you guys asked, and we just want to say thank you for sharing those questions with us. Hopefully we did them some justice and encouraged, send them some encouragement with how we answered them. [Aaron] Yeah. Before we pray for you guys, I just wanted to remind you that at Marriage After God, the whole reason we're doing this is that we want to please God. We want to chase after His will for our lives. We want to be used by Him. We want our marriages to be used to grow His Kingdom. And a Marriage After God doesn't neglect and doesn't aimlessly go through life financially. We do these things with purpose and I know it can seem hard, and it is hard, but that's what we're doing, we're doing hard things. And we're doing it by the power of the Holy Spirit, and so we just want to encourage you to press on, to begin to learn self-control and learn to beat your bodies so that you're not disqualified in this race. And know that we're doing it with you. [Jennifer] Okay, we just want to ask that you join us in prayer. Dear Lord, thank you for everything you give to us. Thank you for our finances and thank you for our jobs so that we can provide for our families, so that we can give back to you and be generous with others. We pray we would be good stewards of all that you give to us especially money. We pray we would be faithful to use our money the way you want us to. Help us to be united in our marriage in the way that we spend, save, and give. Help us to make financial decisions with wisdom and with wise counsel. Please help us to live debt-free, and may our lives be a testimony to others of your faithfulness. May we be people who seek to use our finances to build your Kingdom, in Jesus' name. Amen. Thank you guys so much for joining us this week and we'll see you next time. [Narrator] Did you enjoy today's show? Find many more encouraging stories and resources at marriageaftergod.com and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

In today's episode, we discuss, should entrepreneurs homeschool their kids? FULL TRANSCRIPT Jocelyn: Hey, y'all. On today's podcast we discuss, should entrepreneurs homeschool their kids? Shane: Welcome to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast, where life always comes before work. We're your hosts, Shane and Jocelyn Sams. We're a real family that figured out how to make our entire living online. Now we help other families do the same. Are you ready to flip your life? All right. Let's get started. Shane: What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to the Flipped Lifestyle podcast. It is great to be back with you again today. And we have a very special episode of the Flipped Lifestyle podcast. For those of you who've been listening to our podcast for a long time, you know that normally we do not have expert guests on the show. It's usually a member of the Flip Your Life community who comes on the show, gets a consulting call. We do that on air and we share it with everybody so that you can benefit from the conversation. Actually, the only other guest who's ever been on the Flipped Lifestyle podcast is Pat Flynn, from the Smart Passive Income podcast. Shane: And this one came out of nowhere. Jocelyn sent me a message the other day because we have been discussing whether or not we were going to take our kids out of public school and homeschool them next semester. Jocelyn: We've been discussing it for a year. Shane: Yeah, we've been discussing it off and on forever, and the other day a friend of ours sent us this book. What's it called, Jocelyn? Jocelyn: So it's called The 5-Hour School Week. A friend of mine just kind of randomly sent it to me and said, "Hey, you might be interested in checking this out," because she knew that this is something we've sort of been tossing around for a while. Jocelyn: So, you know, I downloaded it, being a former librarian. I had to jump online and get that thing. Shane: And Jocelyn devoured it and read it in like 30 minutes or something like that because she can read way faster than us. Jocelyn: A little longer than that. Shane: We decided that this was actually a really big issue, not only for us, but for other entrepreneurs out there because as we built the Flipped Lifestyle and we define the Flipped Lifestyle, and we teach other people how to flip their life, a big part of that is freedom, especially time freedom and control of your schedule. That has been a really big problem with us over the last couple of years as entrepreneurs, people who work at home and have total control of our life, it's really been difficult to send our kids to school, where they're in this structured environment and they're sitting in rows and they're on the bell schedule like a factory. Shane: Then also, having to work our schedule around getting up so early to go to school or even if we want to take a trip, wrestling with do we pull our kids out? Do they get behind? Do we have to ask permission to even do that? As we've talked to other entrepreneurs, we realized, especially with people that already work at home or want to work at home, that this is a major problem. Shane: So we reached out to the authors of this book and asked them if they would come on to the show. not only to discuss homeschooling, discuss entrepreneurship and how that all fits together, but also to answer some questions from entrepreneurs in the Flip You Life community and that's what we're going to do on the podcast today, is we're really going to wrestle with this question. Should entrepreneurs homeschool their kid, and if they do, how does that work? What does that look like? That's a really scary proposition. Shane: So without further ado, let's stop talking. Let's invite, let's welcome our guests to the podcast today, and I'm actually just going to say your first names. Jocelyn: We'll let you guys say your last name, okay? Kaleena: Sounds good. Shane: And I am good at butchering names and I want you guys to say this. So we have Aaron and Kaleena. Kaleena: Amuchastegui. Shane: What is it? Say it again? Kaleena: Amuchastegui. Shane: All right. We have Aaron and Kaleena- Kaleena: Amuchastegui. Shane: Amuchastegui. Okay. Welcome to the show, guys. Aaron: Awesome. Thanks so much for inviting us to come on. You know, from you guys getting to talk about what you do and we're really excited to be able to share with you and your community. We're entrepreneurs as well, and we had to do some crazy flips in our life too, so we're super-excited. Kaleena: Yeah, super excited. Shane: I do want to stress that we are not affiliates, we're not getting any benefit for this, you know, financially. Jocelyn: We've met them for the first time, like a few minutes ago. Shane: Yeah, exactly. So we are literally here just to help entrepreneurs in their journey and to help people who are really struggling with this question about homeschooling. So if you could, you mentioned you were entrepreneurs, tell us a little bit about your background as an entrepreneur and then maybe you could go into that decision-making process that led you guys down this homeschool route. Kaleena: Yeah, absolutely. Aaron: Sure. We've been entrepreneurs for almost 10 years now. So originally we were full-time workers. I worked for a residential home builder. Kaleena worked for various offices, different things like that. Back in 2009, that was kind of that first moment of quitting our jobs to become entrepreneurs. Part of that was what everybody wants to try for, is trying to get more freedom, more life, more things like that, but our first couple of years of that was we thought that we were going to get a lot of our time back, but our first few years of entrepreneurship was just really, really long hard hours. Aaron: The businesses that we had chosen, there was 50 and 60 hour weeks and we were buying and selling and flipping houses and doing construction. Kaleena ran a big real estate brokerage. It was a really good experience for us, so we started, after a lot of hard work, we got the money and the finances that entrepreneurship was supposed to bring, but we hadn't quite figured out that freedom part yet because we were working and working a ton. Aaron: Then several years ago, we kind of had those years where there's nannies raising our kids, working way too much around the clock, and just kind of came to these, this kind of different experience where we started to, as entrepreneurs, that way working too much. Our marriage wasn't really going very good, we had nannies raising our kids, they were going off to school and we were really, really unhappy. Then we had kind of some really come to moments. We started adjusting that, changing that business, had to get recycled and back in 2013 Kaleena said, to kind of take a different angle. Kaleena: Right. Shane: You mean when you made it financially, everything didn't work out perfectly? Kaleena: Yes. Exactly. Shane: Come on, that's what everybody thinks, though, right? Once you get that. Aaron: It's so heartbreaking, though. Kaleena: It's super heartbreaking. Aaron: Like when you finally make it to what you think you're supposed to get to and you're still like, "Wait, we're still miserable." That's a sad, sad moment, really. Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: You know what though? That's a part of everyone's journey that we talked to that's made it is ... I think we were actually kind of fortunate in this regard in our journey because Jocelyn used to work in corporate, like the ladder. I mean, you're climbing to the top and you kind of get to a point and you realize, "Wait a minute, you mean if I get the promotion I'm still not happy?" and I did college football coaching and football coaching and things like that. So we kind of had these 70 hour work week experiences before we became entrepreneurs, and I think that kind of tempered how we walked into entrepreneurship. Now, granted, we had the 70 hours weeks when we were working full time, raising kids, trying to build a side business, right? Kaleena: Yep. Shane: But you do realize on the other side of that that it's not just the money. The money can create some opportunity, but it's the time. That's really what you got to get back or everything kind of falls apart. Jocelyn: Yeah, and it's just like part of the whole value. You realize that money is important, but time is even that much more important. Kaleena: That's true. Jocelyn: So it's kind of crazy. It's like a journey. You have to go through the journey to get there to understand that, I think. Shane: So as you're doing this with nannies raising your kids and things like that and you have this come to Jesus moment, like, "Oh my gosh, this is not what we want." Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: How old were your kids in 2013 when that kind of happened? Kaleena: So we have four children all together and I had three girls that were three and under. So I had a three-year-old, a one-year-old, and a newborn and when things really kind of hit the head, we had just had our third baby. She was maybe like a year, year-and-a-half old. Really, we just kind of self-imploded. Our marriage was failing. We were both making six figure incomes, but we were miserable, like I've never been so discontent in my entire life. Kaleena: So it's just those moments that bring you to your knees that you're like, "Okay, we've got to change some stuff." So Aaron went on this mission in growth, like a growth mindset kind of mission, where he started reading Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod. He read the 4-Hour Workweek by Timothy Ferriss. Aaron went on this new mission and I started really scaling back my work. I started hiring people, which we hadn't done. I'd been carrying like 30 to 40 transactions at a time completely by myself. Kaleena: So we started outsourcing some of that work and getting rid of the nannies, and me stepping back into the role that I knew was going to make me happier. So that happened over the course ... I mean, it took a lot of work. I don't want this to sound easy. It took time. Like we were probably a full year in to some serious, serious life changes and business changes when we had this epiphany that things weren't ... We weren't being taken to the level we wanted to be taken to because we couldn't get our kids there with us. Shane: Love that. Aaron: Yeah you know, when we made that first shift to go from 70 hour work weeks to trying to live a four hour work week lifestyle, we made those big changes over that six months to a year, and it really started working. We really started to find where I could travel for work and do things that we could no longer do in California, and then I had a chance to open up - I was doing all these deals again in Texas so I talked to Kaleena and I said, "Hey I need you to open up a brokerage account." Like hey, we've got our family back, we've got our lifestyle back, but now I'm paying 30,000 a month in commissions to other people, I need to go open up a brokerage account. Aaron: And luckily she was super smart and just said, "You know what, we're not gonna work together now. I'm not gonna choose to go back to that lifestyle, we'll make up the money some other way. But I want to raise our kids." Aaron: At that time we weren't homeschooling yet, it was just as entrepreneurs the best lifestyle for us was for me to be running a business and for her to be able to focus on the family. But still at that time she was taking the kids to school and going through that process. Kaleena: Right, and essentially what you were talking about, that 70 hour week but with my kids in school. Shane: That's amazing, and for us we've kind of come to a point about the school discussion. When we quit our jobs, we went into it working together. But we've kind of set some limits in that place, we were working like, during the kids' school hours. So, we'd take the kids to school, we would work from - I don't know. We'd come home, we'd go to the gym, we'd come home, we'd work 10 to 2:30, and then go pick the kids up. Shane: But then we started asking ourselves, is that really what we want for our family? Do we want to drop the kids off and not see them all day? Do we want to have no say in their education? And we realized, I think in the last year, we traded our freedom back to society. Because we are just locked into this school schedule and school cycle now, and it really came to a head this summer when we had to write an essay to get permission to miss a week of school to take our kids to Jamaica. Shane: And I'm sitting here like, what's a better experience? Getting on an airplane and flying to another culture, or sitting in a classroom? And why am I having to write a five paragraph essay to get permission from anybody? We have total control over our lives. We control our finances, we control our schedule, we control everything. What have we done that we've given all our freedom away again? Jocelyn: If that wasn't bad enough, then my son missed a week of school, which was excused by the way because we got it excused from the school, but then he misses a week of school and he gets a little bit behind. And one of the teachers has the nerve to say to him, "Well if you weren't spending so much time in Jamaica, then maybe you would've learned this material." Jocelyn: And I'm like, "What?" Kaleena: Ugh. Shane: Like that is not an either or, you know what I'm saying? Like, life is not either or, even though society wants us to think that way. Kaleena: Right. Shane: Why couldn't we do that and then get caught up and then do something else, or if we had - Jocelyn: Or why wasn't that considered a valuable learning experience that you went to another country, and experienced things that most of these kids in this school may never experience in their lifetime? Why is that not... Shane: And you could bring that back to share it with the other students. Kaleena: Yes, exactly. Jocelyn: Yes. Aaron: I mean, you've read the books so you know, that's the whole basis of the five hour school week, and where that five hour school week came about. It was the same issues of dropping the kids off at school. Kaleena: Right, it was like, "Hey, we're refusing to jump through the hoops of life. We're not entering the rat race. We refuse, as adults, to live this way." And yet we were sending our kids right into that Shane: Oh my gosh. Kaleena: -same rat race that we were rebelling against so strongly. Shane: I'm so glad that you said that, because we literally had this conversation probably about two weeks ago. Jocelyn: This is what our entire brand is about. Our entire brand is about putting family first and not living the way that the rest of society says to live, yet that's exactly what we're doing every single day. Kaleena: Every day. Shane: I got to thinking about our lives. We come home, we've worked hard to build this life for ourselves, in the morning we get up, we go to the gym, we work on what we want to work on, we don't work when we don't want to. I play a little Xbox in the morning I ain't gonna lie. Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: We've kind of built this thing to do what we want to do with our life. And then our kids are just locked into this, every 45 minutes. Like Pavlov's dog a bell will ring, and you will go to the next place, and you will learn what you learn. And if you can't keep up with those other 30 kids that were randomly put in your classroom, because they're your age, and you get behind, you're screwed. Shane: It just really doesn't jive, not only with what we're doing, but really what we should be doing. Schools were invented 100 years ago to provide childcare for factory workers in Chicago and places like that, and also to train people to work in those same environments. I'm just not sure that's the way the world is anymore. Shane: I heard this story, Jocelyn told me this quote the other day that said, "A time traveler came to the future, and was so confused by all the things that he saw. He saw iPads, and the internet, and space travel. And he felt really scared and uncomfortable, but then he went into a school and said, 'Thank god some things haven't changed.' " Kaleena: Oh man, yes. Shane: That's kind of where we find ourselves, at a crossroads. Are we really pursuing freedom if we keep putting our kids in this environment? Jocelyn: We've been wrestling with this forever. Another part of it for me is what you talk about in the book, you talk about how you get what's left over for your kids. They give their best hours to school, and by the time they get home, we're tired because we've been working all day. They're tired because they've been working all day. We don't really spend quality time together. Jocelyn: And what's sad is, we spend more time with our kids than probably most of their peers' parents spend with them, and still it's not even quality time. Sometimes it is, but not always. Kaleena: Right well a lot of the time I'm guessing it's staying on top of them to get their homework done, I'm guessing you're having to urge them to get that reading in, even though they just sat in a desk for seven hours. Jocelyn: Yes. Kaleena: So you are having to now work for the school system and really be kind of a command sergeant, and instead of getting to love on your kid and pour into their life, instead you're like, "Get that reading slip done, make sure that homework gets done, even though I only get to see you for four hours tonight." And let us squeeze all that in to this teeny tiny bit of time we have. Shane: Also, then you take them to their sports, or some activity at night time. Jocelyn: Yes, we have extracurricular activities. Kaleena: Yep so do we. Jocelyn: My daughter, she does an all star cheer team, and it's 30 minutes away from our house. So by the time we drive the 30 minutes she has practice for two hours, and we drive back. That's over three hours of time. How in the world are we supposed to do reading at that time? Shane: And then she goes to bed at 9:30 and we have to get her up at 5:30 AM to go to school because they tell us to be there at 6:50, or whatever. Kaleena: And what about if cheer is her passion? What about if she is going to make it as a professional cheerleader, and you're having to squeeze her passion into that teeny tiny bit of time. Because she spent so much time focusing on stuff that does not fill her up. If she was at home, she could be perfecting and mastering cheer. Or perfecting and mastering where her passion lays. That's the biggest disadvantage, that our kids are spending time on things that are not going to add any value to their life. Kaleena: We are spending 40 hours a week with our kids teaching and shoving things down their throat they will never, ever use. Shane: Yeah, and like. Go ahead. Aaron: We had a couple big moments of that, where it was like hitting us, what are we really doing? I was speaking at a conference and I was on stage telling people about the four hour work week. I said, "Hey you guys work too much. This is how you can work in just a couple hours a day and finish your work day and be successful. Know that the five people you hang out with the most are who you're going to be like, so only hang out with winners." Aaron: And a lady stood up at the end and goes, "Hey that's great. So how does this apply to your kids in school?" And we were like... Jocelyn: Ouch. Shane: Uh.... Kaleena: Yeah. Aaron: Yeah, and I was telling people, "Hey do this, this, and this." And we were sending our kids off... and we had a big moment that night where we were like, "Whoa!" We had experimented with some different things, but that was a big moment. Aaron: And then just like another evening, going to bed again after school, and extracurriculars and we're telling our daughter, "Hey you need to go get your reading done." And she's in tears, like, "Why? I actually earned a free pass from something else so I don't have to." And we're like, "No, you have to." Because we were brainwashed, too. Aaron: And then we tell her, and we lay down in bed and we're like, maybe she's right. What are we doing? We've done everything we're supposed to do. We've checked the boxes, and we got successful, and Kaleena is still a stay at home mom at that time and we're still not even getting enough time with our kids, and not doing it, and really starting to push, you go, hey there's something really wrong here. Kaleena really started educating herself on it. Shane: And I want to stress here some really important facts. Because I know people that - this podcast is going to be controversial. I know it is. Kaleena: Oh yeah. Yup. Shane: But we have a really good school and a great community. We have really hard working, dedicated, good teachers. Jocelyn: Who care about our children. Shane: Who love our kids, and they work within a system that they don't always have control over. And also if you look at the entire span of human history, it is a miracle in the United States, it is a miracle in the United States that every child does even get to go to school, good or bad. Kaleena: Absolutely. Shane: It is an absolute miracle of humanity, if you just look at it throughout history. Shane: However - and the opportunities that we have to be entrepreneurs, to work on the internet, to build a life that we want, and even to educate our child at home, is all built on the fact that that was available for the past hundred years. That being said, somethings wrong. Something has changed in the way that we're all living that has to be corrected. And the system that we're using now is just not working - for our kids, for families. For anybody. Especially for entrepreneurs who do have that freedom. Shane: One of our things is travel. Whether we're speaking, we do live events around the country. Whether we just want to take a trip for educational purposes, or fun. What happens when you want to travel during the week? What happens when you want to get away for a couple weeks in the winter to keep from getting Seasonal Affective Disorder? All these things that you can take into account, you've still got school to contend with. It is trapping you there just like a 9 - 5 job or like a rat race. Shane: What about your kids who are having their creativity stifled? What if your kid hates math? But they can grasp it, they can do the math that they need to do. But what if they are musically inclined and they're only getting 20 minutes of music a day? Shane: Isaac is taking coding in one of his classes, and he's really disappointed because he's cycled out of the coding class, and he was really getting into it. And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, you mean that opportunity disappeared because they can't get everyone through because they only have 12 computers?" Like, what if he wants to keep doing that? He stayed at home sick today and he's up there coding right now. Shane: Where are those opportunities for that? That's where we kind of are at right now. Can we pull this off? Can we do this? But that leads to a whole other set of questions. Aaron: We should say, too, that we absolutely loved the school our girls were going too, too. And the teachers loved our kids. It wasn't that the school we were going to was broken, the system was broken for us. Kaleena: Yes. Aaron: It wasn't a good match for who we wanted to be and what we were trying to do of excelling to these different levels. Then that basis of what you said, the whole idea behind the five hour school week is you can spend an hour a day doing all that normal schoolwork stuff, and then the rest of the day is whatever they want. For travel, or focusing on coding. One of our daughters took coding classes for a while, too. And being able to find that passion. The little details with some focus, they can do all the stuff that everybody else has to do in school, and then they can spend the rest of that time they've saved now on stuff they love. Whether its cheerleading or soccer, whatever. Shane: We've kind of noticed too that school is - and this goes back to there's a problem with how the actual thing has evolved - school's not realistic. It's not realistic to how life actually works. So we can get into the life skills, and balancing checkbooks, and all that's fine. We all have jobs to teach our kids that stuff to. Shane: But when you put 30 people in a room and you teach a lesson once, and you expect all 30 to be able to get there in one class, that doesn't happen. That's not realistic. People learn and grow on their own path. Our son came home the other day and it broke our hearts. I was sitting there talking to him and I said, "Are you okay, did you have a bad day?" And he goes, "I just feel dumb." And I go, "What do you mean?" And he goes, "I'm not understanding area and perimeter, and they only talked about it one day and we went on to something else. But they keep testing me on it." And I'm like oh my gosh, he got to watch the guy do it on the blackboard. But if he was at home, he could watch the lesson over and over until he got it. Jocelyn: And that's how these guys got started, like I know reading in your book that's what was a light bulb moment for you, right? Helping somebody with a math problem. Kaleena: Yeah, so it's interesting. We went on a trip. We started hearing people speak about unconventional education ideas. In fact the vice principal from our private school was leaving to go start an Acton Academy which is an entrepreneurial based school that goes from kindergarten all the way through high school. It's a really incredible program. Shane: We looked at it, we almost thought about moving to a city that has an Acton academy. Jocelyn: Yeah one of our friends, her children go to one. Kaleena: They're incredible. So he's leaving this school, because he's saying, "I have kids and I can't actually send them to the school that I'm a principal at." And so I loved and respected this man. So we were hearing from him, other entrepreneurs were homeschooling their children, and I'd started reading some new material, like Free to Learn from Peter Gray. And so we started slowly tiptoeing into this new territory. Kaleena: So we were like, we're going to pull our kids out of school for a week and go to Yosemite. And I don't care what the school's going to say, we're just gonna go do this. So we're gone for the week, we forget the kids' homework. We think it's going to be a catastrophe. We have this beautiful family vacation. The girls, and we, learned so much together just about the park, about nature. We're doing open air bus rides, and all the things. We're doing campfires with the rangers. We are learning in real time, and making incredible family memories. Kaleena: And so then after a week we get home, and what's waiting for us? A week's worth of homework. And just the fear, and the anxiety sets in and its like panic in my house. And so I start unloading the car and Aaron's like, I'm gonna sit down with the girls, we're gonna knock out homework. Kaleena: Our oldest, Maddy, is stressed. She has to learn long division. They're gonna go over long division this week and she hasn't done it, and this is so terrifying. No exaggeration, Aaron sat there for two hours with all three of our girls and knocked out a weeks worth of work, including teaching Maddy long division. Where she could just sit and independently do problems. Aaron: Its such a fun conversation with you guys, because you guys could've written a couple chapters of our book. Kaleena: Right. Aaron: The same problems you guys are talking about is what's there. We discovered some of it by knowledge, some by seeing it. Those couple hours when we got back, it's the four hour work week principles. If you're really focused and you have no distractions and you're going to the task at hand in the most productive manner, you're gonna be able to finish a whole bunch of stuff in a short amount of time. Aaron: One of the big problems with school like what you said, is that they teach in one method. Which is going to be slower than the fastest person in class and faster than the slowest person in class. So it's really only the perfect speed for a few of the students. And it's only in that subject. So it's not the most efficient way. Aaron: The most efficient way to learn is as fast as that individual can learn. Maybe this kid has to go over perimeter and area ten different times, but in this other subject they get it like that. And so the way we have it set up is that it's that quick focus and then - I take Maddy back to school the next day. We drop her off and she's relieved. We got to pick her and and we go, "Hey how was your day today?" And she goes, "Dad, I was the only one that knows how to learn long division, they didn't even get to it this week." Shane: Wow. Isn't that crazy? Aaron: It is. Shane: You know what's funny though? You still had to deal with all the stress and anxiety. She was so worried about this artificial deadline or consequence that society and the school had placed on her. It's subconscious, they don't know they're doing it. This fear and anxiety was over nothing. Shane: Where is the joy in just, holy crap I know how to do long division. That's miraculous, that we can do these mathematical things, and that's gonna pay dividends down the road. But she got to - what if she had just entered that weekend with, "Oh we just went to Yosemite. Hey what are we studying this week guys? Long division? Cool, let's figure that out." Instead of, "Oh my gosh if I don't learn this tomorrow I'm a failure." And all these consequences, and all these bad things. Shane: You got the result, but you had to deal with all the problems. When you could've just eliminated the anxiety and the problems. Kaleena: Right. Then the problem continued, because for the next three to four weeks the school was still going over long division and Maddy had mastered it and was bored out of her mind. Shane: And that's our daughter's problem right now. She's having the opposite problem. In her class in her grade, not that she's any more smarter or more capable than our son, but she's younger and she's the faster speed right now in her topics. Jocelyn: And she says she's bored. Shane: And she's bored out of her - she doesn't want to go to school. Jocelyn: Basically during a big portion of the day she takes accelerated reader tests, which I don't really have a problem with accelerated reader or anything like that, and I'm not saying anything bad about her teacher. Her teacher is catering to those who haven't mastered whatever it is she's trying to teach, and so because my child has she spends her days reading books and taking tests on them. Kaleena: Right. Oh I know. Shane: She's reading easy fun books and doing nothing. So it's just this weird environment. I go back to, school is not realistic of the real world. Shane: When I wake up every day, I'm looking at the next thing I've got to do to grow our business, to improve our marriage, to help our kids, to help the people in our community, to record podcasts for our audience so they've got something to spur them. I'm always looking at the next thing, there's never a time where I just stop and I'm like, I gotta wait for everybody else to catch up. Shane: That's not real, that's not how life actually works. Looking at how school functions - how old are you guys? Kaleena: I'm 36. Aaron: And I'm 38. Shane: Okay, so I'm 40. Jocelyn's about 30, so we're the same age. We talked to somebody a couple weeks ago, we talked to a guy who was like 31. Right? When we had a live event a couple months ago we had over a hundred people that had flown in for a conference that we put on. There was everybody in that room from age 30 to 60. Shane: But you go to school, and it's the only 18 years of your life where you're trapped with people who are the exact same age as you. And now the schools have become such bubbles. The seniors are kept away from the sophomores. And the sophomores are kept away from the freshman. Everybody's compartmentalized and even the arbitrary - deadlines are one thing - but these arbitrary, weird deadlines, like if you don't figure this out on time, not if you don't do something on time, it's just not real. It's just not the way the real world actually functions in 2000 and whatever. Kaleena: Yeah. Aaron: It's completely unrealistic and totally inefficient. Kaleena: Yeah. Aaron: It's the least efficient way to learn, is the way that they have it set up. It absolutely takes the fun out of it because they are forced to learn for a certain amount of time, all the time. It is so much less fun whereas instead of being excited about learning long division, it's like checking a box. Kaleena: Yep. Jocelyn: Exactly. Aaron: By doing classroom time less, now when they do learn, they want to. They love it. Because they aren't forced to do it all day long, they're choosing to more and more often. And they're getting to choose what they learn more. Kaleena: Right, we're not learning for a grade and we're not learning to pass a test, we're learning for the sake of learning. Which is totally different. This isn't me shooting down education, I love education. I think learning should be a life long journey. From the day that we're born, until the day that we die, we should be learning something new every single day. Not stop when we get a degree, not stop when we get all A's. It's absolutely crazy that we say, get that bachelor's degree and you're done. We're done learning? Are you kidding me? It's crazy. Shane: School's over. Jocelyn: That's just our natural tendency as people, especially as children. That's their natural tendency, to want to learn. Kaleena: Yeah absolutely. Jocelyn: And I think that sometimes in school we kind of stifle that. If we'd mastered whatever it is that we're teaching that day, read some books and take some tests. You know? Kaleena: Yep. Jocelyn: While that is learning... Shane: It fills the time to find something else. Aaron: Yeah, fill the time. Kaleena: Yeah, fill the time. Shane: Okay so let me go back real quick, and then we have bunch of questions. One of the great opportunities we have because we have an audience is, we reached out. This is a hot topic. I want to stress, too, that Jocelyn and I, we do work together in our business. You guys have divided this up. Shane: We both have been successful in our different business pursuits. But we have friends that homeschool from every economic status point. So there's no restriction, we always kill excuses. That's our number one mission in our podcast. Shane: Anyone listening to this, I don't care if you're just starting you entrepreneurial journey, I don't care if you've made it, I don't care if one of you is an entrepreneur and your spouse isn't, I don't care if you're both entrepreneurs, this is one of those things if you want to do it and it's important to you, you'll find a way. And if it's not, you'll find an excuse. So we just want to slam that door shut, and if anybody's thinking that right now, "Well that's great for you guys to talk about this. Shane and Jocelyn got this big podcast. You guys are doing real estate and stuff." No, there's no excuse not to do this if you want to. Okay? Shane: So when you guys made the call - just real quick before we get into a bunch of questions - where did you make the call? How did you make the call? Did you do it in the summer, Christmas time? Just out of nowhere? What was that conversation? How did you execute that? And how did you end up where you're actually homeschooling? Kaleena: Yeah, so a lot like you guys. We talked about it for over a year. Aaron was ready on week one. The minute I started the conversation, Aaron's like, "Pull the trigger, let's go, I'm in." Shane: "I'm ready to go right now. Let's do it." Jocelyn: He's with ya. Kaleena: Right, yeah. I, however, sat in a whole pool of fear for a decent 18 months. Freaked out. Like, my kids are going to be home all day, every day, and - Jocelyn: You're my soul sister. Kaleena: Yes. Like, I don't have a college degree. Yes, I built an amazing real estate brokerage, but what am I going to teach them? Am I gonna mess them up? How are they gonna socialize? If there is a question out there, I had it. And I was terrified of it. Jocelyn: Do you live in my head? Because I was reading the first chapter of your book, I'm like, "I'm pretty sure she was at my house this morning." Shane: Jocelyn, she gets this book, she just walks in here and goes, "I'm calling these people, we're talking to them, they're going to be on the podcast." And I was like, "Oh, what? What are we talking about?" Kaleena: What are we talking about? Exactly. Kaleena: So Aaron was ready, and I sat in and sat in it, and we had in incredible summer. So we ended the school year and it was pretty miserable. We went into the summer and we were living our best life, and we are living to the highest of our abilities. We're traveling, we're killing it at business, we're killing it at parenting, our marriage is thriving, and it's the middle of August and I'm writing a tuition check to send my kids back to school because I'm terrified of like, what are they gonna say? What are my friends gonna think? What's going to happen? Kaleena: So I put them back into school in September, mind you I get elected as the PTA president this year, I'm super involved in our kids' school. I volunteer, we're huge contributors. That's the other thing. You're like, "Oh my gosh all these people that depend on me, what are they gonna say? How are they gonna feel?" Kaleena: So we go from September into November and it was miserable. I can't think of very many weeks that I wasn't going to bed crying, our children- Aaron: She was so caught up though, like caught up in the moment. As soon as school started again, they were all 100 percent back in it. She was there, it was the long days, it was doing all the extracurriculars, it was setting up fundraisers and things like that. I could see that it was killing them. Kaleena: We were falling apart. We were self imploding, literally. Every day I was dropping them off and it went against everything that was in my gut. Shane: This is November right now for us- Jocelyn: I know we were feeling the same way. Shane: And when you said that, I thought to myself that is the exact experience that we have had. Jocelyn: We seriously hate it every day. We hate it. Kaleena: I know. I do know. Aaron: We ended up - it was an accidentally pushing it a little further... I saw what was going on so I scheduled three weeks of vacation in November. Kaleena: Yeah. Aaron: So it was coming up to November first and we realized that I was on a business trip somewhere, and Kaleena is getting ready to write the November check and realizing that they're only going to be at school four or five days that month. Kaleena: Right. We had a couple of business trips, and we decided to mix in going and seeing the volcanoes in Hawaii as an educational piece. So we were gonna be jumping across the country for three weeks and the kids weren't gonna be in school. Because there's also Thanksgiving holiday. It's parent teacher conferences though, and Aaron's in Florida working, and I just call him on the way to parent teacher conferences and I said, "Unless I get a different feeling, I think I'm pulling the kids out right now." And he's like, "I've got your back, I support you, I'm so proud of you..." Whatever. Kaleena: I walked into parent teacher conferences, and the first one was for our oldest, Maddy. And she was a fourth grader. And the teacher said, I'll never forget this conversation because it just solidified what I was doing that day, she said, "Your daughter is incredible. She's so amazing, all A's, the kindest girl in the class, helps people that are below her." All the things you want to hear as a parent, and then she followed it with- Aaron: Reading at a seventh grade level. Kaleena: Right, she's a brand new fourth grader reading at a seventh grade level. And then, I can still hear it in my head, "But, we need to push her a little bit further. We need to get her where she's reading at an eighth grade level. Let's just push a little bit more." Kaleena: And I just kept hearing, "But, but..." And I'm sure she went on and said a lot of things, but all I heard was "but." And I'm like but, nothing. She's having anxiety attacks every day that I'm bringing her to school and she's an all A students. But you want more? Kaleena: I just looked at her and she was like the nicest, sweetest, kindest, great teacher. And I said, "Thank you so much. Maddy's not coming back, I'm starting to homeschool." Jocelyn: Hmm, ouch. Kaleena: Right? And then I did the same thing - honestly the kindergarten and first grade teacher, she was like, "We wish we could do the same with our kids. If there was a way we could make that happen we totally-" Shane: I'm sure everybody had an opinion. Kaleena: Oh yeah. Everybody's all in or thinks you're absolutely nuts. There's very few middle ground to this. Shane: Yeah. Jocelyn: We're used to this. Kaleena: Yeah, you know exactly. Jocelyn: When we decided to quit our jobs in rural, south Kentucky in the middle of the school year, people thought we were absolutely nuts. Shane: People thought something had happened, people came up to us like, "Is your marriage okay?" Kaleena: Right. Shane: "Is one of you getting indicted for something?" We went home one time to Thanksgiving that year and Jocelyn, God bless him, her grandfather came up to me after dinner and we were getting ready to drive back home across the state. And he reaches out, he's old school, he's an old coal miner guy. He was going to shake my hand before I leave, and I looked down and he had put a 20 in my hand, and he goes, "Now son, I know you're not working now, so you need some gas money." And I'm like, "Bro I made last month as much as I made in a year teaching." But he didn't get it. Kaleena: Oh really. Shane: They just- Kaleena: Right no, they don't get it. Shane: If you do something weird like homeschool, like be an entrepreneur, do something to change your life even as radical as, we shouldn't work 70 hours a week because it'll affect our marriage, but isn't it what we're suppose to... Those things really get to people. Kaleena: Oh yeah. Shane: And they don't understand it or have the wherewithal to go do it. Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: So I could totally see - this is crazy too, I haven't had this moment in a while. Because we've been rolling now for six years doing what we do, right? But I remember when I read 'The Four Hour Work Week', when I read these other books about entrepreneurship and when I found people that had the guts to go be successful, or at least try and fail. Right? Shane: I remember thinking, "I want that." Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: And, "maybe I'm not to the point now where I can go all in, but I want that." And when you said, "She's not coming back." It just made me, again, feel that I want that. I want to have the guts to say that. I think we're- Jocelyn: If it were up to Shane this would've happened, probably year ago. Shane: You know what's funny though? Until both us are at that point, I think that's how marriage works. Kaleena: Right. Shane: The reason I don't do it is because we are not there yet, and that's an important part of the dynamic is you both gotta get on the same page. Kaleena: I think for me, I needed it to hurt that bad. Shane: You need a catalyst. Kaleena: I did, because, mind you this is us living our best life, but that doesn't mean it's easy. Just like entrepreneurship, homeschooling is the same. There are days when you are digging in deep, and you better remember those worse days that were behind you. I'm sure you thinking back at working for the school system. I'm sure you - Shane: What we look back on, for us, the nutshells version of our story is our son was being abused at a day care center. They were locking him in a bathroom for hours at a time to punish him in the dark. I found this out one morning, and was stuck between a rock and a hard place because I'm a teacher, there's 30 kids in my classroom, I have to be there. There's legal ramifications if something happens and I don't show up. Shane: So I dropped Isaac off somewhere where he could not stay for more than a couple hours. I asked my boss for time off, and my boss told me that I would have to handle my personal problems after work because she knew my son needed me, but my job needed me, too. That's the moment. Every day it gets hard, every day I think about that, I am like, "I'm not ever going back" Kaleena: Yes. Shane: That's where we are at school. When my kid is downcast, shoulders turned, saying he feels dumb, I can't send him there anymore. Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: That's what you have to reach back for. Kaleena: Yeah. It needs to - I'm really grateful for that pain, I am, because it is what reminds me that this is why we're doing it, this is why it's different, this is why we chose this lifestyle. The timing was perfect for us, even though it felt like a long drawn out process. Aaron: A lot of biggest decisions, we do wrestle with them for a long time. Even when it was entrepreneurship, it was six months or a year of telling Kaleena, "I need to start my own business, I want go do this and and be..." And when our second daughter was born six weeks early and I was staring at her in the incubator, that's when I was like, "Oh man, this is my fault, Kaleena was working nights, I was working days. I need to do something better for my family now." Aaron: There are a lot of those moments where we think we want to go, and we're learning, and it takes that bigger catalyst to go, here's the moment. And Kaleena was so close, and then it was putting them back in school, those feelings every morning were still there. The big catalyst of going, "Hey your daughter's perfect, but let's push her really really hard." And it was like, yeah. Shane: We've coached thousands of people through our community, and we've seen so many people succeed, so many people fail. Everybody's in between, like every journey. But the people who really have that catalyst are the ones that we find really make it the fastest, because... it's not just something you want. I want a lot of things, but I'm not gonna go do those things. Jocelyn: It works better when you don't have a choice. Kaleena: Yeah, absolutely. Shane: Even something as simple as, we encourage people to do all of their videos live because you have no choice but to get it out. You can stop on a recording. But you can't do that when there's people watching. Kaleena: Yep. Shane: When our kids are watching, when our spouse is watching, when we're watching each other, it just pushes you to a whole new level. So we've talked a lot about some definite benefits, especially for entrepreneurial people who want that freedom lifestyle doing homeschool, but like everything in life it's not all sunshine and rainbows. A lot of times when you make decisions, it's not that you're really even making a decision on which one's the best. Which set of problems do I really want to deal with? Kaleena: Yes. Shane: So what are the, just from a general- Jocelyn: What are the challenges, let's not say problems, let's say challenges? Shane: -yeah the challenges, the negative things that arise when you choose to homeschool? Shane: How long we got? Kaleena: Right. No, that's not true. But I love that you say that's it's a different sort of - it's different challenges. Kaleena: Your kids are home all day for the most part, so just start there and really let that sink in to what that is. Your kids are home all day. So we've talked about all the pros that come with that, the cons are, if you're anything like I am, I'm an incredibly busy person separate from just being a mom. I have my own passions and my own stuff, so it's about finding a balance that works for our family. I think that's probably the number one challenge, is that not only are my kids living their best life, but that I'm not sacrificing my best life so that they can have theirs. Jocelyn: Yeah. Kaleena: Right? This isn't supposed to feel like, I'm giving up my life so that my kids can live their best life. This is supposed to be as a family, we are performing at the very best level that we can perform at. And if I'm not taking care of me and I'm not living into my best self, then all of that kind of falls apart. Jocelyn: Yeah. If I'm being really honest that is the number one hold back for me, that is the reason that I have been dragging around on this for approximately 12 months is because - we talked about this during the break, we just had a break a few minutes ago - but really what it is for me is that I am a very ambitious person myself. I am very interested in business, I want to do the business we are 50/50 partners, we do everything together. Jocelyn: While that's awesome, I can just see that my kids being at home all the time... when they want something and they're at home, they say, "Mom, mom, mom, mom." That's who they want. They know that I'm gonna do whatever it is they want me to do to get them off my back. Shane: Also that's biological, I think, to an extent. You know what I mean? Kid goes to mom. Jocelyn: Yeah. I'll be super honest, that is a huge concern for me because I don't like where we are right now because I feel like I have very little, I guess you would say, genuine interactions with them. It's all about "Get your homework done, get a bath, get ready for bed." Shane: "Get ready for this thing we have to drive you to." Jocelyn: Yes. It's like I have no time that I get to spend with them, so that bothers me. But it also bothers me, the thought that, what I feel is my God given reason for being on this earth, which is to help people figure out ways to get out of their daily grind, I feel like I need to be equally there for my children and equally there for that. So that's really hard for me. Shane: And you're also an introverted person. You recharge by being alone, and now we're having less alone. Kaleena: Yes, absolutely. Aaron: I think one of the challenges, too, is we talked about needing unschooling. Changing the old train of thought. The old train of thought is that the kid need to sit in a desk for eight or ten hours a day, and needs to be working the whole time or they're just being lazy. Right? Kaleena: Right. Aaron: So we have a lot of people that Kaleena coaches, and they get started doing it and go, "Well I do the curriculum and he finishes it in the first hour and then he just wants to go play all day." And we go, "Yes, exactly, and then you're supposed to let him." Kaleena: Right. Aaron: And then the parent is like, "Wait" and you have to unschool that and it's sometimes it's a challenge to them, they're like "Wait what do you mean?" Part of the problem is that old belief, when you do start to get those genuine experiences with your kids. After they finish that, it's like, what do you want to go learn about now? What do you want to go do now? When they get to see that they're in control of so much more of that, whether it takes them an hour or three hours to finish it and then they get to start having more control of their life. Then your time is a lot more of the genuine conversations, "How are you doing?" That sort of thing. Aaron: A change in mindset is a challenge for a lot of people. Shane: We have to remember, we both went to public school, we both got to this point. We have a friend who has a podcast called We Turned Out Okay, and it's hard even if you want to break free from it to break free from it. Because you start thinking about, well look at all the best memories of your life, they were kind of forced upon you because you were at school, but some of the best memories of your life are at school. That's just real life, its hard to let go of that. Jocelyn: I think it's to a lot of the known vs the unknown. This is something people struggle with with entrepreneurship, too. Your current life is not great but it's what you know, it's something known. Shane: And it could be very good, it's just not the highest level you could achieve. Jocelyn: Yeah, and the unknown is this new thing. Whether it be a new business, whether it be a new schooling method, whatever. Sometimes people just cling to what they're already doing because its something that they know, it's like they don't have to think about what could happen or what might not happen. I think that comes into it as well. Kaleena: I also think that it's a lot of work. It's like, you are having to be incredibly intentional with this lifestyle. In the same way that you're intentional about being an entrepreneur, you are going to need to be completely intentional about how your kids are learning. Now, that doesn't mean that all the work falls on you. Kaleena: Here's some really quick hacks, because Aaron talked about unschooling. There is this period for kids who are sitting in a school system, in a traditional classroom and have been for years. Like, my oldest sat in a school for six years from the time she was - we started early preschool. Right? Full day early pre school. Kaleena: We have to untrain that behavior, so is there this six month to year long period depending on how long your kids were in school, where literally you're gonna have to de-school them. Just breaking down those habits, those habits that I kind of feel are unhealthy habits, we had to break those down. Kaleena: I'm gonna tell you the easiest way to do that is just let them play. Give them freedom and let them step into being kids again. We really try to overthink it, I think, as homeschoolers. Like, they've gotta learn this, or we've gotta keep up with what their friends are learning in school, what they were learning when we pulled them out. That is not the point here. We are not pulling them out of school to teach them what they were just learning. We are trying to breed something different than what the school system was breeding. Kaleena: We want something different, therefore we have to do something completely different. So it's like literally taking a deliberate jump in the opposite direction. So if you can stay with that mentality in the first part of it, it really really helps. Shane: That's an amazing tip by the way. That blew my mind. That just crushes - it's taking the con, or the negative - Jocelyn: The challenge. Aaron: It takes the pressure off. Shane: And flipping it on its head, it just removes all those obstacles because we are all socially conditioned for a hundred years, five generations of people basically in a society, that your kid does this at this grade to 18 and this must happen, or you fail. And that's where all these challenges come from. These ghosts, we call them ghosts in entrepreneurship when we talk to people like, don't invent ghosts. Its not that we're inventing ghosts in this situation, we've been told the ghost stories our entire life. Kaleena: Right, yep. Shane: And when we want to do something different, we still remember the ghost story that's been told like it's real. And it just becomes this haunting this that one, keeps you from going into the forest in the first place. Or, two, keeps you anxious and terrified when you're passing through. Kaleena: Oh absolutely. Shane: Okay let me ask you this, what was the biggest mistake you guys made at the beginning? Because the beginning is the hardest part. Kaleena: Yes. Shane: Once you get past the beginning, y'all, it's alright. You can figure it out. So you're not going back, you tell them this, you show up Monday morning and you're like, "Oh wait, we're home, what do we do?" What's that biggest mistake the first few months that you guys made? Kaleena: So honestly going back to what I just said, it was really I planned too much. I put this really big expectation on what it was supposed to look like. So my plans was, because I had seen all these commercials all over the TV for like, K through 12, homeschool your kids at home, it's free. We're gonna give you a stipend, just sign up for our government assisted public school. You can school at home. And I'm like, perfect. That's awesome, they're gonna do all the work for me and I get to have my kids at home. Right? Kaleena: Okay so I'm sure there's a lot of good for those programs for other groups of people, and some of them might work like that and be awesome. The one in California was, you need to log, I think it was a minimum of five hours day. They were keeping attendance. You had to pass standardized testing. So I had this very grandiose, original thought of what my homeschooling journey was gonna look like and on day one it blew up. Because it wasn't what I wanted. Kaleena: So here's what I did that people think is absolutely crazy. I just took the next six months off. I would get up on a Monday and I would ask my kids, "What do you want to learn?" And then we would write it on a white board, and then we would go learn those things. And I literally kept it that easy. Kaleena: And if we had a trip coming up we would learn about where we were going. If they would ask me a question when we were driving down the road, I would hand my 11 year old my phone and I would say "Google that, let's learn about that right now, let's answer that question." Aaron: You guys did a lot of Khan Academy. Kaleena: Right. And we would play around with different curriculums and different apps and stuff that were out there. So, Khan Academy is great and it literally takes you from preschool, where you can get a masters, they take you all the way through college on Khan Academy. Every program, every class. Amazing teachers. The whole thing. Kaleena: So I'm looking at that, I'm looking at Adapted Mind. We're doing some time for learning, I'm downloading apps. I'm familiarizing myself with programs that are out there, and I'm just kind throwing them at my kids. "Hey try this, how does this work for you?" And I set up, I made this thing called the buffet of learning, where I would just set out their computers every day, and set books and activities and things, and just let them pick, what do you want to do today? What are you gonna do in your hour today? Kaleena: And we just played. I didn't put a lot of conditions on that. I wasn't trying to see a result, I just wanted to get to know how my kids learn and what they wanted to learn. Shane: I love it. Aaron: Yeah. Kaleena: And it changed everything, really. Aaron: So much of the book is trying to encourage people to find their way. Try this, then try this, try this. Your situation might look a little different than ours. Kaleena can individually tell people, break it out. But a big concept at the beginning was learning life skills, the stuff they don't really teach in school. The value of money, making good risky decisions. There's a lot of stuff out there. So when we go on the trips to Canada, converting Celsius to Fahrenheit and things like that. Aaron: So part of that mindset, too, was the shift in going, alright let's learn some life skills too. When you do go on those trips, when you go to Jamaica, things like that. There's still other, worldly things that they get to learn. So it was a lot more of a focus on learn all that stuff while she was experimenting with the book work balance. Shane: It's amazing. This sounds like, it's the flip your life blue print. It's exactly what we tell people. People always want to come into the flip your life community, and they say things like, "If I can get my idea and I can get my product and it works then I will continue," or, "If I just had the exact plan and I knew this is what I need to do to be an entrepreneur I would do it." That's big objection. Kaleena: Right. Shane: That's not how it works, that's not how business works. You have to try it and get crushed, or try it and succeed and fail. You have to go out and do. One of the things we encourage people to do is, your idea doesn't matter in the beginning, you just have to go do it to learn all the foundational stuff. And then your next idea gets better. I heard one guy say, "When you start this you're going to suck, but if you're doing it you're going to suck less, and eventually you'll suck so little that you'll actually be kind of good, and then you'll get to great. Kaleena: Yeah. Shane: That's kind of like what you're saying here. Our big thing is, the only thing we've talked about lately is what curriculum are we gonna use? What product are we gonna sign up for? Shane: That's not even the right question at all. You won't know until you try. Kaleena: That's the thing is you won't know and here's the other thing, what works for you in September, it may no longer work for you in May. It is constantly evolving and changing. You have to just be, in the same way that you're flexible with your business and you're constantly listening to the client and figuring out what the trends are setting. All the things, right? And then you're also doing the same thing with your kids, going oh this is what we're into. Kaleena: So our oldest Maddy, when we started this, was all about coding. Coding, coding, coding. Building web pages, marketing, she was so interested in it. So we found Hackingtons - it's like a hacker lab. So we would take her to classes at Hackingtons and she would learn how to code through them, and she would come home and she would do Minecraft. She would do all these different things to learn how to code and perfect that skill. Kaleena: And after three months of just passionately coding, she's done coding. She was just done. And I couldn't believe it, I was like "What? No you're gonna be a master coder, you're gonna build the best websites and the best apps. And you're gonna become a millionaire doing it. What do you mean?" And she's like, "I'm done with coding, I'm not really into it." And she started sewing. So I bought her a sewing machine and she started sewing. Kaleena: Because she was 10 and she's trying to find her way, and if we provide this environment for them then instead of finding their way at 30 or 40 or never like so many of us, we are providing this environment that maybe when she's 18 Maddy's gonna know what she masters, what she's passionate about, what she's so good at. And she's gonna be, 10, 15, 20 years ahead of all of her peers. Aaron: The old mindset was push and push and push them. Now if next month she decides she doesn't want to sew anymore, like right now if there's a hole cut in anything we go hand it to her and say, "We need you to fix this." Or her sisters say, "We need Maddy to go sew it." Kaleena: Yeah. Aaron: She's good. And Maddy's also started a bunch of little business that have been successful. She's a total entrepreneur at heart already. But the big part is, next month if she wants to do something different, instead of getting discouraged and going, "Oh she doesn't follow up with anything." It's like going, "Okay, let's see what's next." Aaron: They did TaeKwonDo for a couple years, they loved it, and all the sudden they were like, you know what I think we want to do dance or something instead? And as parents we're used to going like, "No you have to keep going." Now we try to understand and we're like, "Alright cool, let's find your passion." Aaron: Because as an entrepreneur, and as adults, if we didn't like something anymore we wouldn't do it anymore. Kaleena: Right. Kaleena: How many times have we drawn businesses, Aaron and I had seven failed business before we had a successful one. What if we had just stayed in those failing businesses instead of walking away from them and starting it new? Like you've just gotta keep throwing it at the wall. And it isn't about being lazy, and not pushing my kids for excellent. It's actually the exact opposite. It's really encouraging them to step into who they were created to be. Kaleena: I think that that's a thousand percent about the environment. They just need our support. They need us to facilitate that. It's not about doing it for them, that's the last thing you want to do. They need to - Shane: It's also not like, "Stay in your lane." There is a point where some of that's valuable, like okay I do have to push past something that's hard. Kaleena: Right. Shane: That's not the same thing as losing interest. Totally different. Kaleena: Yeah. Whenever I think that this is, "Oh I don't want to go through it because it's a challenge," or, here's the other big one, "I don't want to go through that because I'm scared and fearful of what's on the other side." Whenever I think it's fear based or challenge based, there's a little more motivation. Right? Like you just know your kids, or hopefully you know your kids. That's what- Shane: Or you will. Kaleena: Or you get to know your kids, I guess. Because I didn't. I didn't know that fear was driving my kids in so many areas. It's like learning that, learning how your kids respond to certain things and then providing the correct amount of motivation and the right environment so that they can learn. Shane: So what you're saying is, in reality, that the fear for us is - and this is a weird fear for us because literally we both have masters degrees in teaching children. Jocelyn: Yeah. Shane: Like honestly, she's elementary, I'm high school. You would think that we'd be like, "Oh we got this." Jocelyn: We got the teaching part. Shane: But the fear part, really for us is, we sit and think back to kind of where we were teachers and we were teac