Podcast appearances and mentions of nathan what

On this Episode we bring you a special roundtable discussion about the war & withdrawal in Afghanistan. Pulling from a diverse group of military members, we cover a lot on this episode. Our in-studio guest is Robbie Hugland, who served with the Air Force as an Electronic Warfare Operator in Afghanistan. This is his second appearance on our Podcast, so if you haven't listened to the first one, check it out! Sean joins us via Zoom, and served with the Army as a Human Resources Officer in-Country in Afghanistan. He talked to tons of soldiers coming in and out of Afghanistan & was privy to high level operational conversations at the Officer level. Nathan also joins us via Zoom. He is a Marine and served as part of an Infantry Scout Squad that was on the front line for two separate Afghan deployments. We get a diverse range of opinions on everything from Afghan mission creep, did we miss an opportunity to taking out Osama Bin Laden earlier, our military rules of engagement, life at a forward operating base (FOB), the life of the FOBBIT, and how our withdrawal could have been handled. We also discuss whether or not we should have left a long term stabilizing force in Afghanistan for the next 100 years? 22:28 - How did you feel about going into Afghanistan after the attacks of 9/11? 32:16 - Should we leave Afghanistan and say ‘it is what it is' -OR- should we leave a stabilizing force in the country? 37:45 - (Robbie) Why were we even there in the first place? What's the value of an airfield that we control in Afghanistan? What is Mission Creep? Would it surprise you to learn that we could have been out of Afghanistan WAY sooner than you could have ever imagined? Did Bush (W) & Dick Cheney MISS their opportunity to kill or capture Osama Bin Laden earlier? 52:40 - (Nathan) What's your opinion on leaving or staying? Nathan shares that one of his primary missions was to convince farmers not to grow poppies, so we can control the drug money being funneled to the Taliban. The main objective of being there was to control drugs for quite a long time. Poppy seeds, opium, and agriculture of illegal drugs accounts for MOST of Afghanistans GDP. 1:10:55 - Not all military people think alike. There are a lot of misconceptions out there that, once you become a soldier, whether it be the Army, Marines, Air Force, or Navy, you become one of the same. We're here to tell you that's not true, and we have some excellent examples. Soldiers & Veterans do NOT have a monolithic or standard opinion on politics. 1:19:28 - We gave the Taliban a TON of equipment. What do you think they are going to do with it? Are we in store for another 9/11? Did we make a massive mistake? Will the Taliban and Al Queda being fighting us with our own weapons in some future war? 2:00:00 - If you're skipping through for the current events question, this is the part you want to watch. Did Biden mess up the withdrawal? Could we have done it better? If you were helping advise or manage, what do you think should have happened or could have happened? Should we have just stayed?

Monday's #OTBAM podcast - Football with David Meyler and Brian Kerr, Rugby with Neil Treacy, Australian Open with Colm Boohig and the Gillette Performance Rankings. Timestamps below. Catch OTB's sports breakfast show LIVE weekday mornings from 7:30am. - 01:00 - LIVE with Ger and Nathan - What if Liverpool don't make the Champions League? - 13:20 - Football with David Meyler: Liverpool, Man City, Ireland-Watch. - 40:40 - Sports Pages - GAA Chairmen... - 51:30 - Brian Kerr on Leicester, Liverpool and West Ham. - 1:04:00 - Djokovic, Osaka and the Australian Open fallout with Colm Boohig. - 1:21:00 - The Gillette Performance Rankings: Spurs, Finau, Harry Byrne, Irish Athletics, Fenton and Hegarty. - 1:44:00 - Rugby with Neil Treacy: the Byrne brothers, Munster forwards, Craig Casey. Have you got anything for the OTB AM agenda this week? Let us know in the live comments or Whatsapp the show at 087 9 180180, or email AM@offtheball.com! SUBSCRIBE and FOLLOW the OTB AM podcast. #OTBAM is live weekday mornings from 7:30am across Off The Ball, in association with Gillette | #MadeOfWhatMatters

Kai Lightner is a professional climber and the founder of Climbing for Change. We talked about how Kai discovered climbing, his reflections on an eating disorder, the importance of flexibility for tall climbers, early racist encounters, starting a non-profit to help open doors for other people, and some of Kai’s favorite training music.  Support Climbing for Change:  donorbox.org/climbing-for-change-launch  Support the Podcast:    patreon.com/thenuggetclimbing  Show Notes:   http://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/kai-lightner  Nuggets:  2:53 – Tension boarding, creativity in climbing, and Kai’s first experience with hangboarding  6:55 – Kai’s go-to training music  8:01 – Halloween costumes, and the Tupac and T.I. quotes Kai shared in his graduation speech  10:39 – The Olympics, Kai’s early role models, Chris Brown’s music, and Kai’s mom  11:24 – Growing up climbing everything, the flagpole story, and Kai’s first day in a climbing gym  16:16 – Kai’s first climbing gym, climbing on the same route to prepare for nationals for five years, and driving 6 hours to get coaching  19:13 – Getting into competitions climbing, and most memorable competitions from 14 years of competing  22:15 – Going climbing outdoors at the New River Gorge, being the only black people in a 50-mile radius, and navigating unwelcoming areas  25:19 – Kai’s first racist encounter, and “the race talk”   28:25 – Outdoor climbing as a break from the pressure of competitions, and taking a break from competing to go to college on a full scholarship  31:01 – ‘Reflections on My Climbing Journey’, and Kai’s struggle with an eating disorder  36:33 – Quick vs. sustainable, and finding a better way to be better  38:10 – Thinking about food in a healthier way, climbing 5.14+ at 5’3” and 6’3”, and adapting to a grown-up body  40:27 – Kai’s feelings about projecting, and his longest project to date  41:59 – How Kai’s training has changed as an adult, a typical week of training, and Kai’s coach  45:40 – Looking up to Adam Ondra, stretching for one hour every morning, and Kai’s drop knee stretch  52:05 – Why being more flexible = being a better climber  53:38 – Why Adam Ondra is the best  55:00 – Feeling more complete as a person by helping people  56:04 – Kai’s thoughts on climbing pace  58:31 – Patron Question: What is it like being the tallest professional climber out there? Does Kai run into any situations in which he thinks, “Damn, I wish I were shorter…” If so, how often?  1:01:35 – Patron Question from Joe: I’m 6’5” and I wonder if Kai has any rules or beta for climbing through scrunchy moves that you can’t reach past?  1:02:42 – Volunteering with diversity and inclusion organizations, opening doors for others, and bridging gaps  1:07:29 – Climbing for Change (C4C), partnering with One Climb in Atlanta, and launching scholarships for individuals  1:10:47 – Patron Question from Nathan: What challenges have you faced in developing C4C?  1:12:18 – How to donate to C4C  1:13:03 – Patron Question from Nathan: What are the benefits of having your mom as a coach? What are some of the difficulties?  1:16:34 – Patron Question from Nathan: Do you think you will ever get into trad climbing? How about big walls?  1:18:11 – Kai’s (very impressive) trip to the Hurricave, and aspirations to climb 5.15  1:21:12 – Patron Question from Anna: Having grown up in the spotlight, how does Kai view his private life vs. his public life, and does he struggle to find a balance?  1:23:43 – Patron Question from Sarah: If you could get every young climber to internalize one message what would it be?  1:25:24 – Most recent meal, Asian food, Cheetos, favorite songs, and the crying laughing emoji  1:30:27 – Family  1:31:04 – Excited about Climbing for Change  1:31:57 – Instagram, outfits, and sharing experiences to help others  

Nathan: Lacy. I've been noticing lately that a lot of folks are struggling and I had this sneaking suspicion that you might have something helpful to say to folks.Lacy: Hmm,Nathan: So do you.Lacy: do I have something helpful? Say folks who are struggling? Um, me too. Amy can say that you're not alone. there's a wonderful Quaker phrase called you know, this holding center. meaning that we're, you know, we're noticing that we are deepening in Christ and that we are, stable, but the storm is raging around us.Nathan: It's a unique storm and has been for you guys. Can, can you share a little about that with Doug and son?Lacy: Yeah. I'm, I'm married to an emergency room physician. he, serves our community and our local hospital. so that's meant that since March. We've had, a unique experience. Well, actually not unique, you know, worldwide, there's lots of healthcare workers. We've had this experience, of what it looks like to weather this storm.with this second, third, I don't know what they're calling this new, increase in COVID cases. we've had to really reconsider what our faithfulness looks like in this season.  So we, Doug and I were not sleeping in the same bed. We're all living in the same house.He has so far declined to sleep in the greenhouse. And I'm sleeping on a blow up mattress in the living room.Nathan: Yeah. Yeah.Lacy: yeah. And it's been, it's been hard for our kids. For our, our youngest daughter is still at home with us. It's been very difficult for her.Nathan: What's her struggle been?Lacy: You know, and I, I just want to say, I did ask her permission to make sure it was okay. That I, I talked a little bit about it, but, we're a bit of an anomaly in our community.We've been super careful. We live next door to my parents. And we just want to be super careful. So lots of the adults we've always had this belief, that it takes a whole lot of people to raise children. Don't have it all.Nathan: Wait a minute. You, you wrote a book about children. You're you're not the expert. You're not, you're not the mom of the year.Lacy: Good gracious. Absolutely not. Um, so yeah, we've sort of, had community around us and some of our community their faithfulness has looked like different, different levels of restrictions than ours. And so that's brought up big conversations in our house. In a really vulnerable act -- again I have asked her permission -- she said, you know, mom, all of these adults that have had spoken into my life all of these years, some of them, many of them, don't have the same level of  attention to this as you and dad do. She said, I'm wondering if, if you and dad are crazy. And I was  really grateful that she could give me her really true feelings, how she feels about this. And I felt really isolated and alone.Nathan: What'd you say?Lacy: I think one, lots of people are feeling this and lots of teenagers are feeling this. If we think of Dallas, Willard's different dimensions of the person and he talks about, and one is social context. Well, the main way that adolescents, one of the main dimensions of the self that they're engaging is their social context.And so they in this season have not had that, or they've had it in different ways and, and that's created a loss within them. And for sure they are feeling that. So I could hear that in her conversation with me.  And I needed to be able to, in that moment -- we were driving, which is a great place, can I say to talk, is to give them some space and, you know, as long as you can keep it on the road, it's a good place that they feel free to talk. And I was, I felt really grateful that she could talk to us about it. I felt like it was our faithfulness to continue in the path what looks like for us to love our neighbor well, which means that she, she couldn't do, she can't do all the social things that she's wanted to do and is so conditioned to doing. And I had to make space for her to be angry about it,that anger in this season lands with me.Nathan: yeah. Holding center. What does that mean?Lacy: well, practically for me, what does it look like right now? That's praying the Psalms. there's a little Salter that comes  from Paraclete Press, it's called, a book of daily prayer. The Paraclete Psalter. And, and thenNathan: Better than mine?Lacy: Well, it, what it does is it, has you read that throughout the different times of the day, so you have morning, afternoon, evening all of the daily office and you read through the whole Psalter in a month. Which, you know, we're at what, nine months in here. and what I really like about it is that it includes the lamenting Psalms. And so, part of the way that I've been able to hold center is by praying those lamenting Psalms. So that anger that gets pushed on me as a parent, which it happens. Is, I can funnel that into the lamenting Psalms and to God who can handle that. The weight of teenage, frustration and anger, honestly, I'm certainly no mother of the year, it's too much for me to bear. I can funnel it through these lamenting Psalms, and into God and God can handle it.Nathan: That's right. It's worth noting that God allowed certain Psalms in there.Lacy: Oh, yeah. And they're Oh, can I just tell you they're not pretty? One of the other pieces that, where we're having these conversations of consequence in our home too, is that, healthcare workers are exhausted. When their colleagues get sick, you know, they're taking on extra shifts, their shifts are longer in order to take care of patients.At our tiny hospital, the second COVID wing has opened up, the ICU is filling. So healthcare workers are dealing with their own anxiety. And their own faithfulness, you know, they came into this profession wanting to help people. And often our communities, different levels of people's discernment around this can really tick away at their sense of feeling United. So you know that they are all in this together. They can feel like that, that they're fractured from their community and  that can weigh heavy on them.Nathan: I remember sitting in a faculty meeting once and they were talking about bringing the faculty and staff together and kind of building, you know, some sort of community. And my friend was a history professor and his, his specialty was in world war II. He just kind of leans over and he says, well, we need an enemy.That's how you bring people together. There's a common enemy. You know, he was, he was big, somewhat, you know, serious. So what's confused me as I thought at the beginning of a pandemic. And some of these things that, that what we would see is a little of what it seemed like happened during world war II, we're in this together and buying bonds and let's, you know, save flour or whatever to kind of help the cause.And it's really confused me in a sense how that's not happened. And it does seem that some of the greatest divisions are among Christian folks. And, you know, what does church look like and how do we, and then the interactions with each other  have not been good and been really, really destructive.So I'm wondering if you had any, any thoughts about that or any potential ways to move forward or we can move forward.Lacy: I think that our experience as a family that has a healthcare worker as a main member of our family has implications for the division that maybe we feel as a nation. I wonder if Christians could see healthcare workers as fellow human beings. Who longed to have encounters with Christ, even if they can't really verbally articulate that. And the quote keeps coming to mind that we cannot proclaim the good news and be the bad news. So what would it look like, Church, to be the good news? To healthcare workers. And I think that's a, fateful question maybe that we could all live with. What would it look like? Because nurses and techs and doctors and all the folks who, are protecting us. Who are working long hours they're watching. And we can say lots of things. In fact, we write them on posters and we walk them in the streets, but who we are -- that speaks louder than anything else. And I think the next sort of group of people that I have the honor of listening to. And I mean, it, honor, incredible honor, our pastors and educators, and I, get to accompany them in spiritual direction and they're also experiencing incredible divisiveness. Depending on what, the decisions that are being made.  they're meeting resistance on all sides. What would it look like to be the good news to your child's teacher? To the pastor of your church.Nathan: What does it look like for you in this season to be the good news... to love well?Lacy: For us as a family, it means that I'm sleeping on a blowup mattress in the living room. Because my parents live next door. Because of, if Doug gets sick, I don't want to, you know, pass it off somewhere else. To be the good news looks like being vulnerable with people who  find theirselves in a different  place than I am, in terms of what their level of faithfulness is. And, having conversations over zoom, having masked conversations, it means to, for me to actually show up. I've noticed in myself what happens, when I sort of move into that judgmental space. And I mean, it's so easy right now to move there --  it's just so easy. In fact, I feel quite sure that I will, if I listened to this podcast, I'm going to be like, Oh, Lacy.So I almost want to beg forgiveness on the front end. But when I notice I'm moving into that judgmental space, I know that I have moved away from the person in front of me.  it's very difficult to judge up close. and it's easier to judge from a distance. So, you know, I'm, saying if we disagree, can we have a conversation? Can I hear what your point of view, which would you like to hear mine and my experience. I mean, in many ways, this is why I agreed to have the podcast to talk about this a little bit publicly. I want to move in, move closer. So that's vulnerability, moving closer, praying the Psalms. Oh, please definitely pray the Psalms. I thought about taking an Exacto knife and just cutting all the lamenting Psalms up like a little book, just read those, but cutting and pasting is really not my forte. but the other thing that has been a gift, and maybe I can , you know, turn it towards a gift.One of the gifts has been play. We have played more. I have personally played more in this season than I have played in my entire life. I think. Yeah. You know, I was born into a family who knows how to work.I mean, we are workers. I started waiting tables, I bet I was seven when I was, when I could hold plates, hot plates. I learned how to combine work in play, but just flat out play.  It is my youngest daughter who has taught me how to play. And it was out of necessity. It was, we were going to turn on each other and there, and then we were going to have like a homicide of some kind and we didn't do something if we didn't get out of our little house.And so it, it started in the spring and we were outside playing.  I have learned, right now we're out. So we've got a lot of snow this winter and we're out in the snow. We have a dog who had to have her front leg removed last Christmas. Her name is Maggie and she's a border Collie.So she, you know, she moves a lot. She runs the five acres all the time, and it was so difficult for her to learn to walk again without, I mean the back leg, they, they recover quite quickly, but that front leg is such a powerhouse. And she's done a great job moving without it, but I haven't seen her face light up until we got that first snow.And I mean, even as we're talking, I'm watching her outside, running through the snow with those three legs. And I mean, you know, she's hopping with that front leg and that there is just something about snow. That is inviting us to play. And something about Maggie only three legs.  She had cancer. We don't know how much longer we're going to have her with us, but just seeing that playfulness, she puts her nose underneath the snow and throws it up over her back.She kind of burrows down underneath it. She kicks it with her back legs. And it's just really inviting me to play.Nathan: Hmm, that's good.Lacy: And there's, there's something about those two P's right now -- praying the Psalms and Play. And it's again, it's I think it's that intersection of the deep, the deep sorrow of suffering. My grandparents,  got COVID and,  they got it at church.And my grandfather has a CT scan today. There is the very real named losses that are happening right now. And there is an invitation that seems to becoming from God through nature, inviting, inviting me to play.Nathan: Can I tell you about my cat?Lacy: I love cats.Nathan: So I needed a mouse cat. I have this, this barn that I'm working in and it had some mice, so I just need a mouse cat. So, so we, we got this cat that lived on the streets, you know, it was a stray and I didn't think I'd really see him around. You know, skiddish, whatnot. This cat. Oh my goodness. Well, first off it's like a dog.He follows me, like when I take walks, he walks with me and his little tail drags in the snow and he's just the most loving cat and. It has felt like play me and this cat, like we walk around together and I'm doing things around the yard and it, it just has felt like this little companion that God has given me the midst of this.So many adults struggle with play, self included. It's is there any word that you might give to people who hear you say play and they kind of, yes, but I don't know how to do that.Lacy: Yeah. First of all, think back to when you were a child, what did you do in your, in your, when you were very young? That you really enjoyed? Play can involve like a glorious loss of time. So when did you lose track of time and what did you do?Did it have something to do with being outside? Did it have something to do with creating something? Did you lose track of time as you were creating something? Did it have to do with telling jokes? You know, as my grandparents have suffered from COVID the last couple of weeks, this is  my grandparents that are the funniest. I learned to tell my first jokes from this grandmother and, in her deli on 42nd street in Odessa, Texas.  I learned to laugh with her she's hysterical. So we've been talking about all the different jokes that we used to tell and the funny things that happened as we worked in restaurants together over the years.So are there some things that you used to do with people that you love, that, you lost track of time that gave you that sense of being connected with someone bigger than yourself?Nathan: I love this phrase, glorious loss of time.Lacy: And it's not the kind of glorious loss of time that's happening right now in a pandemic. One more like we're on, you know, somebody says what's today's date and it's like, it's March three, four, or whatever.Nathan: That's where you forget, you forget that you're bound to a clock, right. And just, just, Oh my goodness. It's two in the morning. Wow.Lacy: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I am very uncoordinated. I have like low level coordination. But long ago, um, when I was at, I was a teacher at new covenant Christian school in Penfield, New York. And at this charismatic Christian school, in chapel, Wednesday chapels, the kids danced.And I come from a Baptist tradition and no adults don't even dance. Nobody danced. That's Southern Baptist. There are other Baptist traditions that are, are wonderful dancers. This was new to me and the children taught me to praise God and dance at the same time, but the kiddos taught me. So I would say to someone who's like, I'm not sure I know how to play.If there's a child around, ask them to teach you. So this is their mother tongue, and so they can teach you to speak it. So that would be the other. how about trying out dancing? There is a song that's come out of South Africa called the... I think it's called the Jerusalem dance and we found a couple of YouTube videos on it and we're practicing.This is kind of a lot throwback to 1980s line dancing and we're practicing it in our house. It's really kind of a lot of fun. I'm terrible...Nathan: Right. I believe you on both ends. How is play a spiritual act or can it be a spiritual act?Lacy: Oh, absolutely. Play as a spiritual act in many ways. One is that it helps us forget ourselves, but not in the sense of self rejection, but because there, there are, there's sort of two ways to go in forgetting ourself. Forgetting ourselves in freedom, means that we still have a sense of self forgetting ourselves in rejection is separation.So, so play invites us to, forget ourself through self acception. And that means that we're being accept. We receive ourselves as being accepted by God, and we show up with all, all of who we are. So play very much invites us into that. We can set ourself aside because we're fully there. play also helps us to experience unity.One of the ways that my youngest daughter explained unity to me once was, you know, mom, when I'm on the back of, Pepper, that's one of our horses and she's trotting, I know the difference between me and her, and when she moves into a gallop, I know the difference between me and her, but when she breaks into or run, I don't know the difference. And play helps us experience that unity with , often, with God.And with another, that, that we feel that deep sense of being connected. I mean, when we're dancing this Jerusalem dance and we actually nail off, well, we, when I actually nail all the moves Anwen nails and every time there's a sense of glorious unity between us and the Melody and beat of the music, it's it brings incredible amount of joy to us.Nathan: Sometimes when I'm looking at nature and I'll, I'll see a bug or a bird or something, and I'll, I'll just kind of go, you're just playing around. Aren't you like? Like there just feels to be this playfulness in the w there is no reason to make that flower so intricately beautiful. So I  think God plays.Lacy: One way, way that we have played is by watching movies together lately. That's, that is a way play. And we have watched a movie called my octopus friend.Nathan: Oh, I saw thatLacy: Oh, you know, he talks about octopus and how this particular octopus plays. So animals do play. And one of the things that I think play does for us as a spiritual practice as well is it opens us to be learners.I mean, when we have a sense of play, we are not trying to get things perfectly spot on. I mean, our inner compulsion for failure takes a break. And we can learn more. So if we have this sense of play in our lives, then our inner compulsion around getting things exactly right. And I mean, that's true right now in the pandemic.Right. For, for us as a family with a healthcare worker, we can have an inner compulsion, like, you know, where's our mask. you know how much hand sanitizer can one person schlep around town picking up groceries? I mean, we, when we, anyway, we got a bottle of some that smelled terrible. In fact, we all agreed that it smelled like horse manure or so we're walking around feeling like we smell so bad.With this hand sanitizer anyway. So what play can do is to help us lower that compulsion that we're all having right now, wherever your faithfulness lies.Nathan: Lacey, thank you for your vulnerability, sharing your story.Lacy: You asked me in the beginning, what did I want people to know? I think I want people to know the thing that I have wanted to know, which is that you're not alone. We're not alone.Nathan: I'll take it. Thank you friend.Lacy: Thanks.

Nathan: Marlena, tell me about your book.Marlena: Yeah, I'm glad  to talk about this --  The Way Up Is Down. I'd read through the gospels frequently, I should say, listen to them online before I go to bed at night, just to  hopefully absorb the life of Jesus into my life, through listening and, my imagination and mind.And I noticed that a lot of things stood out to me about Jesus.First, that he could have been born in a palace, but he chose to be born poor, which I could identify with because I grew up very poor in my life. And also I was struck by how many times, as people say, he talked about the upside down kingdom: Many of the first will be last and the last shall be first,  and the greatest person in the kingdom will be the servant of all.How  in the upper room where he bowed to wash the disciples feet and he says to those in the room, you don't know what I'm doing now, but later you will. And also Philippians chapter two, where, it talks about, the fancy word kenosis. He emptied himself so that he might be full of God.And so my book basically is about what it would look like to empty ourselves of all that is not Christ so that we can be full of the grace of God and live that way. And, I think it seems to run contrary what we see in the broader Christian culture.And I was so disillusioned with the witness of the church that I wanted to look at the life of Jesus and see and contrast it with how we seem to be collectively living. That said there's a many beautiful saints people that I've met, but I just feel like our witness is not that of Jesus.Nathan: What does it look like to empty ourselves?Marlena: Well, it can be a very difficult thing to do. I know you knew Dallas Willard, but I remember how he would always use the example of not having to have the last word in an argument or when someone put him down, it could be something, I don't want to say as simple as that, because that's difficult, not unleashing our anger on people that we could be justified in unleashing it at, we're in a time where, even, Christians use their words to hammer others, even justifiably so. Like sometimes people do and say things that are horrible and awful online and maybe in-person. And I could see, myself, easily just striking back or if you're attacked, you know, but Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:44 to love our enemies.And so, I empty myself. We empty ourselves, have the right to strike back at people in interpersonal relationships. Of course I'm always careful to tell people that we don't tolerate abuse or allow ourselves to be abused. That's not what I mean, but, I think too in the racial kind of tensions that have continued since the founding of America.Those of us that have privilege and it could be, you know, your racial status, like as a white person, or it could be wealth, Jesus emptied himself of that to serve other people. And that's what it looks like. And it would call for kind of some hard decisions. Like what are we going to do with our money?I remember when I was younger, a teenager or in my early twenties, maybe it's because I didn't have a lot of money, but I could not fathom what Jesus was talking about when he said you will either serve God or money. I'm like, what does he mean? And over the years, that question has been answered.I think that a lot of times the church bows to what money will do instead of doing what's right. You know, and I know it can be a hard decision because some pastors are put in positions, for example, I've I know pastors who've been told if you keep preaching this way or that way, I'm going to take my tithe and take it elsewhere, when they're preaching from scripture and Christian tradition and with the tithe goes, it could be a staff position, you know, depending how much money that person gives.And I just think a lot of times in the church we've chosen to serve money instead of serve others. And that we can kick people that are down, even though I believe it's that Isaiah 42, where he says a bruised reed, he will not break. and it seems sometimes the church is guilty of breaking bruised reeds and hurting the people that Jesus made a beeline to. And those are some of the things I reflect upon in the book, especially that the last will be first.One of my favorite things that I wrote about were the people with intellectual disabilities in my church.just like Lazarus was at the rich man's gate, you know, asking for food and the rich man rendered Lazarus invisible. I think God sends us teachers, I call it--you know, people to teach us the way of Jesus. But at first we wouldn't think that there are teachers. It might be, again, people with intellectual disabilities, it might be the elderly, the poor, or it could be family members within our own household, that God has allowed to be in our life and our paths and we ignore them.We can abuse them and denigrate them when they're the very people that God could use to teach us the way of Jesus. And so that's, again, how, you know, the last might be first. Like these people that I abuse or denigrated. Like CS Lewis talks about in the great divorce. I talk about us, Sarah Smith of Golders green.She was poor on earth, but in a CS Lewis' rendition. She's a great queen. And I actually think that. Maybe on the last day or when kingdom comes, you know, the last will be first and we'll be in for a big surprise.Nathan: There's a very personal piece in the book. I'm curious. How does your story fit into this narrative?Marlena: Yeah, I could really identify with Jesus. I used to say, Lord, why did you make me poor? or did you allow me to be poor? I don't know all the theology behind it. Right. I can never ascertain that. And I don't think we have for millennia, but, I used to wonder why I was allowed to, if you want to use that language to suffer and, you know, I think about not having gifts on Christmas, not having Thanksgiving dinner.I used to hate the holidays because of that. I'm just working cutting wood to earn gas money for my dad. And that allowed me to realize that Jesus said, well, I, you know, I didn't have somewhere to lay my head. And I was like, Oh, I can be in solidarity with Jesus in this way. He understands what I went through.You know, I'm not in the same condition I was growing up. But I still suffer, I guess, what would you call it? Like the consequences of, I would say it's probably generational poverty, you know, no wealth passed on to .. . I don't know to give me some kind of, and my husband too, a cushion. So, everything we've had to pay, you know, by God's grace for ourselves.I think that allows me maybe to see from the bottom up, maybe it's allowed me to see people, the people that the world neglects that have been such an example of Christ to me. And  it might be the, the weight of glory where he talks about, people become such bright lights that you're almost tempted to bow down and worship them or such, you know, maybe hideous monsters.And I have felt like this overwhelming sometimes. Uh, desire to curtsy, to people just cause I see the love of God and the love of Christ in them and see how they live in the every day.  You know, saints every day saints. I just almost see light emanating from them.And usually, I mean, They not even aware of it themselves. Um, and so I give thanks to God and I say, thank you, God, that you've graced me with your presence through these people. And so I'm really kind of fascinated with the Lord, just how he turns everything upside down and that he can relate to me and I can relate to him and his,  at least from American standpoint, I'm not even going to compare myself to the rest of the world, but by American standards was poverty.Nathan: I keep a notebook in my pocket at all times. And part of it's, cause I have some memory challenges, but part of is because I hear something or I have a thought and I just want to remember it. But the other day, I wrote there's a certain trauma to poverty and.Almost like a Maslow's hierarchy, right. Growing up in poverty, it comes with a lot of challenges that I don't think people outside would know. One of the quotes that got me was this statement I think it was Howard Zinn the difference between poor folks and sociologists is poor folks know what they're talking about."You know, there's a certain thing you learn in that, that you can only learn from going through it. And I love that, that that helps you connect with Jesus. Who are some of your teachers.Marlena: Oh, that's a good question. Besides, you know, I love the people at Renovaré, but in the context of what we're talking about, I think of Paula who's now with the Lord. She had Alzheimer's when I met her, I was, director of discipleship at my church. And you know, she would sing my name like "Mar-len-a".And I couldn't believe that Paula remembered my name because she had Alzheimer's. I was, you know, I was newer to the church and her eyes would light up when I came by and she'd come give me a hug. And she just taught me a lot. I mean, just the sparkle in her eyes when she saw me and not just me, I know other people, but I thought, you know,  I think that's how God looks at me the way that Paula looks at me.And I talk about it in the book at one point. She got really teary-eyed. One time she was talking about remembering when she was young, cause someone called her a moose, you know, saying she's ugly when she was a young girl, she remembered that and she's was, you know, a tall lady. And, um, what I saw such beauty in her and I said, no, Paula, you're so beautiful.And another time she started crying because she was forgetting. And she was wondering, you know, is this forgetting gonna affect me and my relationship with God? And I said, no. And then I came home and told my husband about that.I asked him, I said, Sean, how do you think the Lord interacts as far as spiritual formation with people that have Alzheimer's, you know, what kind of relationship? He said that Jesus doesn't mind introducing  himself to Paula over and over again, and to other people.And I was just like, Oh my gosh. Yes. That's exactly what, I was just floating with his comment about it because yeah, Jesus, doesn't it mind introducing himself to Paula over and over again in a new, so Paula was one of my teachers.I used to work with migrant farm workers, asylum seekers, inner city youth. Speaking about poverty, you know, every day it's hard, like getting to school and,  just the obstacles that people have to overcome just to do simple things.And over and over, I just saw love for other people, deference to other people, joy, hard work. A lot of the people that we talk about as our teachers, people have stereotypes like lazy, only wanting a handout and most of the poor people I know that I've ever met are very hard workers.Of course there are people that take advantage of the system, but I've seen rich people that take advantage of the system and middle-class. So taking advantage of the system, isn't particularly salient among the poor it's all levels of society. The Catholics talk about this, even the Eastern Orthodox talk about how the poor can show us the face of Christ.It's not like you have some kind of sainthood because you're poor, but I think it's just because of vulnerability and there's nothing to prove, you know, nothing to prove. And so you could be full of the life of Christ because there's not a lot of things blocking that.  I've often thought that in my own life, like, well, I don't really have much to prove.I have no networks I can, rely on or point to this or that. And sometimes I've grieved that because I'm like, well, that would be a great help right now in my life. But then it drives me to God.Nathan: Many of the poor folk I've known are the most generous people. My father-in-law, lived in pretty extreme poverty and we used to send him food. Like we, uh, kind of surprise him and have food delivered to us, to his house.And he'd invite everybody over. He just would have a big party, you know, and I just, I love that. There's something beautiful in that. Um, but do you see that too, in your work with migrant farmers?Marlena: Yes. I, I think there's statistics too. Like, I don't know, per capita or however, the poor are more generous than those with more money and I do see it. The generosity comes from maybe memory, you know what it's like not to have, and you don't want other people to go through that. And you know of other people, maybe like your father-in-law like, Hey, you know, people would enjoy a good meal today. They don't have to go shopping. We're going to provide dinner.I mean, Jesus himself was poor, right? He was so poor and he was generous. Yes, he was God, but  I think about the multiplication of the loaves and the fish. Jesus was like, you know, it's I know it's going to be hard for you guys to get food, so let's multiply the loaves and the fish.And something else I tell people too, Nathan, is that Jesus, everything he spoke he lived out So when he tells us in Matthew six, you know, don't worry about tomorrow, what you will eat or drink, which is a message I have to remind myself of frequently. He said that because he had to consider the birds and the lilies himself, because, you know,  he was poor.And he had to depend on our Heavently Father for food, for his daily bread and that makes it into the Lord's prayer, you know, give us today our daily bread. I think he included that because he had to pray that frequently, whether it's literal daily bread nourishment, or whatever else that we need for our lives, because Mary wasn't rich and, in Luke it talks about how women and others provided out of their purse for the ministry of the disciples.Joseph was probably old when he married Mary and so we don't see any more about him in the Bible after Jesus was 12 years old. So for her to be a widow at that time, she depended on her son to take care of her. So Jesus was caring for his mom.Like you said, your family with your father-in-law. In this case, Jesus was caring for his mom. She was part of his ministry. And so I'm convinced that he knew what it was like to consider the birds and have to depend on the father for the daily bread. For him and his mom.Nathan: Earlier, you mentioned loving our enemies. What does that look like? How did you work that out in the book?Marlena: When I was young, I was in Puerto Rico in the fourth grade and I was almost kidnapped after I got off my bus. I think the person probably would have kidnapped me, but I got off the bus, his car followed me and said, Hey, in Spanish, where's this place.And you know, I'm like a nice person, you know, I'm like, okay. Yeah, it's here. And I went up and the man grabbed my hand and exposed himself and tried to make me touch him, you know?  It was an assault and that picture stayed with me. I was 10 years old.Well, after that, I was in fourth grade. I, you know, I didn't want to be around men. My parents would say, Hey, go to the store or go into the sprint in and get me like a, you know, a milk or whatever. I didn't want to do that. You know, this was  the late eighties.But I remember fifth grade,  we moved back to the mainland of the United States. We lived in this little green trailer and I didn't have much to do after I would do like, whatever chores I had and do homework. So I would read the Bible, like for two to four hours a day, about the ages from 10 to 14.And I think that's what my people have said: you have a divine imagination. Well, I think that's where it came from looking back. But I remember what Jesus said in Matthew 5:44, that you have to forgive your enemies. And  I'm like, okay, that means I have to forgive this man whose face I remember even till this day whose name I will never know.And so I started praying at 11 years old for this man that assaulted me. Because Jesus said, pray for your enemies, you know, like, taking Jesus at his word as a little girl. Cause if you don't forgive others, you won't be forgiven. You know, it also talks about that in there.That's when that practice of praying for your enemies and forgiving them started in my life. So fast-forward, I should say I've worked with farm migrant farm workers who provide our food and  there's a lot of human rights abuses against them and asylum seekers and immigrants.And I know it's  for some people it's a great political issue for them. For me, meeting people and hearing their stories firsthand. I think it's a human rights issue and a biblical issue. And you know, that we have  a certain kind of obligation to them.But because of that, I get attacked by people.  I've been called unChristian, a communist, or, you know, all sorts of  what people consider derogatory words.  And I was like, I just have to pray for people that say things to me. I say you have no idea what you're talking about.You just are acting on  hearsay. I've talked to people in person. And so I have to forgive them for insulting me.And so I have to wrestle with that. To forgive my brothers and sisters, not only for hurting me, I don't know what the word is for that, but when I see them doing harm to the most vulnerable people.Nathan: I have a theory on Jesus' statement to pray for our enemies. That it's as much for us as it is for them. And the reason I say that is because when I do that, it, sets me free. There's something that happens when I really dig in and pray for someone, you know, how we define enemies, it's a tricky word, but, it changes me and  it liberates me from their  nonsense or  abuse. What do you think of that?Marlena: I think you said it so well, and  I think about what kind of spiritual formation and Jesus's humanity, right? Because yes, he was fully God fully, man. Like I think his Spiritual Formation culminated in two things.  In the Garden of Gesthemane when he said not my will, but yours be done when, you know, he said, get me out of this basically but he went through with it.And also on the cross, when he says father, forgive them for they know not what they do. You know, like, so spiritual formation can not be microwave. For him to be able to say when he was being speared,  spit upon, mocked, when his disciples ran away... to be able to forgive his disciples and cook them some fish on the beach afterwards. That was years of culmination.You know, some people ask, well, how can we  forgive our enemies, especially if you've been sexually abused. I want to be very careful that it could take maybe a whole lifetime, or you might get to the point where say, God, I want to be able to do that, but I can't, you know, you're very honest about it.It doesn't always happen right away. And I think it depends on the seriousness of the transgression against you, but I think, yeah, it does change us. And it's one of God's graces and it doesn't happen always right away. And  for some people I've had to pray for years, you know?Cause I think that I'm good and it wells up in me again and I get very upset and then I have to say, okay, God, they claim to be your children to please bless them, even though they're doing so much harm.Nathan: I'll sometimes start with the prayer of  I want to forgive, you know, or, or I want to want to, right? I don't even want to, but I want to be in a place where I would like to and sometimes That's the only place we can start.Marlena: Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Yep.Nathan: For folks reading the book. What do you hope for them to take away from it?Marlena: There's been a lot of people, they're disillusioned with the church for good reason, right? And some people have been, I think, badly taught like that they're, you know, they call it worm theology. Like God just can't stand you and God just... you know, God tolerates you. That's not the God I've known.I talk about one point in the book where my daughter, when she was three and I won't go into the story right now, but it culminates with her saying, so mommy, you're saying, God looks happy at me. God looks happy at me. And I said, yes, God looks happy at you. That was her translation of what we were talking about. God looks at us with love and joy.And so I hope that readers would take that away. And also,  maybe with some of the stories I shared and insights that you can really live like Jesus. There are people that live like Jesus in the world, the saints, these beautiful people, that many of the last will be first.So that's why it's called The Way Up is Down because you know, the world has a way of success, but Jesus way of being lifted up is not the way of the world and that Christians, when they take the way of Jesus. Nouwen called it downward mobility, when they take that way, it talks about in Philippians chapter two kenosis that you might not win accolades from the world, but you will bring great joy to God and you will do much good in the world.So that's, that's my hope.Nathan: It is very backwards. Not just American culture, but church culture. I remember when I was teaching, I used to work with Brother Lawrence's book, Practice of the Presence of God. And, and I remember I had a student go, so wait, he was a dishwasher, right? Yeah, he's a dishwasher. Wait, wait, how come he didn't move up? Why did he stay a dishwasher? You know, he was like kind of a failure. This guy, why didn't he... And I thought it is so ingrained in us that this idea of downward mobility or that there's kind of a nobility in remaining a dishwasher that that was, um, a beautiful thing for him to stay with that.But it is very, very foreign to us.Marlena: Yeah. And it's not always easy because we have this message in the church, right? Like bigger, better numbers.  And it's the way of the world that's ingrained itself in the church, but you're right. That's not always the way of Jesus. I mean it might be for your life, but it's not always.Nathan: How have you reconciled with the church?Marlena: I write a little bit about how I've been hurt by the church. And I haven't been forthright about it, but how I've reconciled with it because I do see saints in everyday life. If I wouldn't have seen people that are like, Jesus, I don't know that I could be a Christian. Because people have asked me  why are you still Christian?I'm like, because I see people that live like Jesus. And so when the people that don't live like Jesus, I said, that's not God, I know Jesus. And I know what he's like, and that's not it. So, my hope and prayer is that I don't ever become the things I despise and that, you know, further down in Philippians two, that hopefully I will shine like one of the stars in the universe.So people give thanks to God, at least that's my prayer.Nathan: Marlena. Thank you so much for your time and your story.Marlena: Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

Welcome back for another episode of He Got Y'all: An Insecure After Show! Is there a future for Issa & Nathan? What's really good with Grandpa George? How can Issa move on without Molly? I'll discuss that and more! Let me know what's on your mind. Tweet me @HeGotYall

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Jules: Hey Nathan, do you go to the gym?Nathan: Yes, Jules. I do try to but I'm a bit, I don't know what the word is.Jules: Lazy?Nathan: Inconsistent. No, thanks very much.Jules: What do you do at the gym? What do you actually do?Nathan: What do I do at the gym? I try to work on specific back and lower back muscles but it's quite difficult.Jules: On a machine or?Nathan: Well that's the unfortunate part is that the gym that I go to doesn't have a proper barbell so most of it's machine work or...Jules: Barbell, is that a thing you lift?Nathan: Like the big long bar, all the muscle dudes kind of use.Jules: I don't know much about that kind of stuff.Nathan: But there's enough and then I usually do like forty-five minutes of different lifts and then about an hour kind of stretching afterward. But, yeah, I don't like the gyms so much, you know.Jules: Why not? What don't you like about gyms?Nathan: Number one, I get paranoid.Jules: Do you?Nathan: If there's like really muscly guys there or something. I'm like...Jules: Paranoid or self-conscious?Nathan: Self-conscious maybe yeah. And then the other thing is I find that some gyms are not really gyms. They're just socializing places.Jules: I guess that if that's the only function, you become a member, you hang out.Nathan: You sit on a machine that everybody else wants to use and you talk for forty-five minutes.Jules: Ah, I see.Nathan: And then...Jules: You have some peeves about the gym do you?Nathan: Yeah, and then I'll go up to the guy or the girl who's sitting and just chatting and I say do you mind if I use this machine and then they start using it. I'm like ar.Jules: Machine hogs?Nathan: Yeah. But the thing is you have to, you want to keep your muscles warm so you want to go in a kind of a set routine and if you skip, say you start off with your lower legs and you work up through your body, for example, you want to keep like the next set of muscles around it warm but you can't do that if the machines or the weights you want to use are hogged.Jules: You have to sit around and wait?Nathan: Yeah and then you have to miss that out so that kind of drives me nuts.Jules: I don't really understand machines. I've never really used a gym machine before.Nathan: No?Jules: No. If I go to a gym, I go to the studio and done some kind of workout.Nathan: Yeah.Jules: I like classes. I like classes to music where you can jump around and dance in front of a mirror.Nathan: Yeah, aerobics?Jules: Yeah, those kind of things, yeah.Nathan: But you're like a yoga teacher so...Jules: I'm a yoga teacher, yeah. Actually I've never done yoga in a gym. I know that a lot of gyms now offer yoga classes because yoga classes are really, really popular.Nathan: Yeah.Jules: And I guess it's a good partnership with muscle work and stuff if you want to stretch out.Nathan: Great.Jules: But for me, yoga is much more philosophical and much more about relaxation and meditation and far more about your inner world, and the gyms don't seem like the right environment for me to practice yoga.Nathan: Right.

Yeah, that's me alright. You might be wondering how I got here.  *Star Wipe back to 2017*Nathan: What if we made a podcast? It's ten minutes with Tim Tebow.

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Video marketing is a common discussion among real estate agents right now. Today we discuss some of the things to avoid during when video marketing listings in real estate. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 23:49 RTRE 62 – Video Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I'm Chris here with Christian and Nate. And today we're talking about…Nate what are we talking about?  [Nathan]: What are we talking about? Listing videos and… [Chris]: Listing videos. We're talking about listing videos today.  [Nathan]: We're gonna be talking about listing videos. What's great about this episode, I think is, I'm not gonna be talking a lot, because I don't do listing videos. So that's…that's great. But Mr. Harris here is…is really…God he…what's the proper…he got a wild hair posses on this one. It was brought up I guess. [laughter] [Christian]: Oh boy.  [Nathan]: He has got has got some strong opinions people. About these listing videos and so I mean… I guess I have opinions. It's you don't need to do them. But I guess if you're gonna do them we're gonna let Christian talk about what you should do and shouldn't do. As we always talk about I guess on our podcast. I'm actually intrigued to hear what he's got to say. Because maybe I'll learn something since it's not something I ever venture into. So Christian you want to talk about listing videos and…and how they're done. Right. or how they're done wrong? Or maybe it's about content but you got some strong opinions. But what got this wild hair up, you know, to be so “eick” about it? [laughter] [Christian]: I don't know how much of a wild hair. But, I mean, Nate so what do you do to market your listings? Because that's when I say listing videos, I'm using it as a general term the agents use to market their listings. [Christian]: Well I tell all my clients up front too that if somebody comes in here and tells you they're gonna market their home, well I'm gonna tell them “Dude that's a [censored] word generally.” In our market, again we talked about this in the last two episodes, when I say our market here. You know what you have to do for marketing in Columbus? Put in MLS. It hits Trulia, Zillow, Redfin, boom boom boom boom boom. Right. great pictures I think are a giant, enormous and key. I don't see the need for video and unless it's depending on the caliber of the home. Right. I could…could do it. And then I'll segue. I think a lot of it depends on what you're also charging the client. Right. But…marketing…you put it in…put it in MLS.. Right. now that's about all you need to do. I mean… [Christian]: OK so let me let me ask you so what…so if you believe that all agents marketing is automatic, what value are you bringing your clients? What do you actually do for your clients that other agents don't do? [Nathan]: Boom. I'm better at negotiating then I think about 90% of the people out there. I guide them through the process of preparation getting their home prepared to put it on the market. What may need to be done or not need to be done to that home. Right.  [Christian]: So how's that presented if you're not doing a marketing? And you're doing photos. Right. But everybody does photos. [Nathan]: But yeah everybody does photos. But again everybody does photos, b ut there's a difference in the quality of photos. Right. you got plenty of agents to walk in with their own camera or their iPhone and take photos, yeah. Right.  [Chris]: Stay away from the Galaxy you all. Just… [Nathan]: Yeah right. Or you have an agency and a professional photographer to photograph a home. Right.  [Chris]: Which standard should be standard.  [Nathan]: Should be but I would… [Christian]: They can't…[crosstalk] [Nathan]: 50% of agents in the Columbus market do not use professional photography.  [Chris]: And Christian yes a photographer should be standard even on a vacant house. [Christian]: Oh no it should be. That was a little throwback to our last episode about the value of staging, you know. Yep professional photos help a house.  [Chris]: Photographer yes. Stager maybe not. [Christian]: Right. [Nathan]: And again I think it depends. Now what I do, I offer three options when I go on a listing presentation. You have a four percent of five percent and a six percent. Right. And they all vary with what you get for that amount of commission. Some people don't want to spend six percent. Most people go towards a five. But… [Christian]: So you give them options? [Nathan]: I give them options yes. And a lot of people like… [Chris]: It's a menu. [Nathan]: Yeah it's a menu. Right. It's no more. But I personally don't believe video sells a house. Why? Didn't [censored] sell a house 10 years ago. Why? Because they weren't doing it. And things sold just fine. So… [Christian]: Well I mean that's…I mean it's a, you know, you know, you don't want to get into that topic because there wasn't an internet ten years ago. And things have changed so… [Nathan]: Right. So… [Christian]: You know what that last brokerage said? “This is that we've done for 40 years, I'm not going to change it now.” [Nathan]: Famous last words. [Christian]: I don't think that's what you're saying. I hope not.  [Nathan]: No. But like so you say, well “What do you provide?” Well I also offer…I hate the word [censored] “discounted” but I will list your home and provide what generally is the same as any other agent, I just do it as a better rate. So but go back to your videos. [Christian]: OK OK. I wasn't…that was intended as a joke. As just kind of… [Nathan]: No it's OK.  [Christian]: I wanted to hear what you thought was the value you provide.  [Nathan]: Here is the other thing I provide. I provide them [censored] honesty because most real estate agents are [censored] liars. They won't tell the truth. They'll say anything to get the [censored] listing. I don't know if I talked about it. Let me rant on this one. I just went, did a listing presentation, like three weeks ago. I don't think I've talked about this. Right.Bbut the client walked me upstairs and I walked in the room and I went “Oh my God that [censored] wallpaper has got to go.” [Christian]: Yep you mentioned that in the... [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: Yeah that's a good one.  [Nathan]: Right. So yes she laughed. Right. And I said what's so funny Jenny? She says “All the other agents came in here, just told me the room look beautiful. You're the first one to tell me it's ugly and I know it's ugly.” Most people just don't tell the truth. [Chris]: Was that the dentist? [Nathan]: Yes. [Chris]: Yeah I remember that one.  [Nathan]: What? What…what do you get? Right. You get pure honesty. You don't like it? Than don't [censored] hire me. Enough about that. [laughter] Let's go back to…we were talking about videos. How do we get back to videos? This all started with videos. [Chris]: Back to listing videos. [Christian]: Right.  [Chris]: Bring it in.  [Christian]: We've believed at this point a little bit. Nat's value is not in the marketing. And I'd say most agents' value is in the market, because honestly it is pretty automatic, it's pretty syndicated these days. And it's something, you know, I tell my…my clients too. It's like “Listen this is what an agent is gonna tell you. This is [censored]. This is, you know, this is…this is how it works.” I think my axe to grind when it comes to listing videos is that what most agents call listening videos are glorified slideshows. Stop calling it virtual tour or a listing video. [Chris]: Yeah we're…we're gonna give you a virtual tour. [Christian]: A moving-picture is not a video with some you know, generic music over. That's, you know, pet peeve of mine. I don't know why people still pay for that, you know, because I'll look on the MLS we have that virtual tour link. Right. Half the time I click on it some, you know, [censored] tour factory slideshow, with some crappy music go over. I'm like “What the [censored] is this?  [Chris]: Like yeah for us its property panorama but it's the same thing. Takes all your listing videos, automatically adds the background music and there you go. I've turned mine off in the MLS. [Christian]: Yeah so that bugs me. So to me I think when it comes to marketing there's two main things you can…you can do. And maybe three. I mean you could do a dedicated, you know, listing website. Which I think could be helpful, especially if you're seller is gonna share it, you know, as opposed to sharing like the MLS link or something, which looks, at least for us, looks archaic and cheesy. So having a dedicated landing page can be a helpful tool. Something like Kingston Lane. Really cheap. They do a good job. Or doing like a Matter Ports [phonetics] for 3d tour. I still think that is really powerful as a way for people to do a walk-through without actually being there. So they get a good feel for the house which you… [Chris]: Matter Ports is good. [Christian]: Yeah so we use that on all our listings. If you're gonna do video, I think you can either detract or enhance the house, to pay on how well it's done. So I say for most agents is probably not what you want to do. One, it tends to be expensive if you do it right, because you're gonna hire it out. If you do it yourself…you…you better be pretty damn good, you know. The reason I go with Matter Ports instead of videos, is because it allows the end user to control the experience. They get…it goes as fast as they want. They get to look at what they want. They're not stuck with “Oh it's a 30 second video and I didn't get to see what I wanted in the house.” Or “It's a 5 minute or 10 minute video and oh my God why is there five minutes of drone footage outside, before you get inside the house. I'm done.” They click off. So the problem with video is that nowadays people want it quick. They want to see what they want to see. And so it can really shoot you in the foot if you're not…if it's not done well and it's not done timely, it doesn't have a specific point. But I do still think there's definitely room for it. And…and there's some great people out there doing some…some really cool stuff.  Like I don't know if you guys saw the listing video for Ryan Lewis's house out here in Seattle. It's, you know, thirty million dollars or some crazy mansion. And they basically hired a influencer to do a twenty minutes basically like a roast of his house, under the guise of he's breaking and entering into Ryan Lewis's house. It is as they're making fun of it the whole…whole time through. And it's hilarious. It doesn't really good job to showcase the house. In like a normal listing video I won't last three seconds, and this thing, you know, watched all twenty minutes of it. Because it was funny. It was memorable. It's an amazing house, you know, then, you know, some more grassroots people, they're doing some amazing stuff with. Like Tim Macy, you know, our common Cameron, which we've had both them. [Chris]: Yeah they've both been on the podcast. [Christian]: Yeah but, you know, the RETV Facebook group is great for kind of forward-thinking, video focused content makers. [Chris]: Erica Wolf just did a new tour of a home.  [Christian]: Right. Yeah…yeah that was pretty…pretty funny.  [Chris]: See those are the things that the MLS won't allow as like listing videos though. Because with an MLS, at least in Georgia, for our listing tours it has to only be the property. So you can use Matterport or could do a video walkthrough, you can't do anything creative on the MLS board. So that's…that's outside of our listing video territory. That's social media marketing. That's promotion… [Christian]: This is if you want to stand out and actually provide something, not just as your own brand, but like if…if your clients want to be aligned with that outside-the-box viral video stuff, you know, I mean…I know like Phil Greeley, locally, he's a Sotheby's and he's just double down on video. And he's gotten some really high-end listings because he's done some…yeah from like doing some amazing videos. That get some great traction, you know. Like that he wouldn't have got that if he just did photos. [Chris]: [inaudible] with Gary Vaynerchuk [phonetics]. [Christian]: Yeah I'm just saying… [Chris]: And he was one of our first guests.  [Christian]: Yes. But I'm just saying it's not like it's worthless. [Chris]: No. [Christian]: But if you're gonna do it, do it right. [Nathan]: Some people do like…what's his name, The wolf of Whistler. [Chris]: Wolf of Whistler?! [Nathan]: Oh tell me you've seen it. [Chris]: Oh I know what you're talking about. Yeah.  [Nathan]: Well I mean his is good. I mean, you know, it's very much like a dollar shape for housing. But it was…I mean it's catchy, it's good, it gets people's attention. [Chris]: So let's talk about quality of listing videos. Because Christiane you kind of got into it and I did a lot of Matter Port. I think Matterport is good spending the money when it's not a seller's market. When…when you don't have to worry about, you know, the property being on the market more than 24 hours. [Christian]: I just do it in all my listings. But I own the camera. [Chris]: So out of Christian… [Christian]: I am just saying it's, you know, it's part of what we offer.  [Chris]: OK. I'm glad, you know, like staging is part of all your listings. I'm sure there's exceptions. [Christian]: If it makes sense. If it makes sense. [Chris]: Yeah yeah it's part of all my listings. So Matterport I've done. And…and I found that the Matterport increased the quality of the showings. Because by the time the people are coming out there, they've seen the property, over and over again. They've already walked the property over and over again. It's decrease the number of showings before contract. And then during the contract period its decrease the number of walk throughs. Why? Because we've already got a diagram that has every measurement of the home that's listed and it's online.  So we've got the entire floor plan of every floor of the house, that Matterport comes with. In addition to that they can continue to walk and do whatever they want. They can be screen shots and save the images. Whatever they need to do at night, in bed, kids are asleep. Whatever it is. Husband and wife. Whoever is buying the house can look at the property together or by themselves and just figure out where their furniture is gonna go, without coming back out to the house while it's under contract. So it's dramatically decreased the number of showings, but it's also decreased the number of times the buyer has to come to the house. In substantially sized homes.  Video. 100% has to be quality. I have fired video or content companies, for photo, Matterport, video. They do it all. I fired them because when I saw the video that they turned out, I can see the footprints in the video going up and down as the photographer's walking through the freaking house. And it just drove me nuts because it's like giving me motion sickness. And I know that my eye is better for that than like most of the public. And hardly anybody's gonna notice. But I notice. That's my brand. So that [censored], not acceptable. It's hard to find a good photographer. Somebody that can do video. Because they've got to have  the equipment. They've got to have the stabilizer. They've got to make it so like they're walking through. They're not like… [Christian]: If you're paying for it they better at least have a gimbal. So you…it doesn't look like they're walking, you know, bouncing walking through the house. I mean it's a basic. You could buy one of those for 80 bucks yourself, you know.  [Chris]: Well if you're using it for an iPhone. But for a camera it's not 80 bucks.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean they're more expensive. But my point is, you know, if you're like that's what you do, you better had the equipment for it. [Chris]: Yeah absolutely. So I've got a great photographer in Georgia. His name is Keith Hirsch, Georgia home view. Best photographer in the state in my book. I've had a lot of people come across my desk and Keith is the only one that I've looked at and I've said “You know what? I can't do this. That's like…that's way above like my…my level.” And I've been in a darkroom since I was 14. So I've been around a camera… [Christian]: They locked you the closet? Under the stairs?  [Chris]: Like developing, you know, each other. [Christian]: Oh OK I thought you were talking about child abuse. OK. I'm sorry. [laughter] [Chris]: A real darkroom. Not Harry Potter's bedroom. [Christian]: Got you. OK. [Chris]: So when I saw that, I got in. and he doesn't have a gimble. He uses a shoulder rig or I think he's got like one of those rigs for his camera, where you hold it with two hands. He's just so good that it looks fluid. Like you can't even tell. I asked him. I thought he shot the inside video with a drone, and he didn't. It was just his camera and he was walking through the property. Look the quality of your media reflects the quality of your work. That's what you're putting out there. If you're putting out a free MLS provided, you know, flipbook, of the properties that you have, the pictures that you've already listed and just putting it to music, nobody's gonna watch that. That's a waste of time. And for you to market yourself and saying “This is a video. Like we're gonna give we're gonna give a video tour of the property too. We're gonna turn all you have pictures into videos.” Welcome to 1997 like tech class in high school. Like that's…that's….we're way beyond that. [Christian]: Sure. Well and that's why I like…I mean when I first got into real estate, you know, I pretty quickly started pushing back against kind of the idea, you know, a lot of agents were being told “Hey you just do something. Just get something out there. Get content out there.” Now I'm like “Well no you better think about it. Better get it right.” Because if you put bad content out there, that's gonna hurt you worse than you if you had nothing out there, in some situations. Because… [Chris]: It's like that note, it's like that saying “There's no such thing as bad press.” [Christian]: That not true. Well because I mean if…if I…if I did…Let's say I did listing photos with my iPhone and you look like [censored] that's not better than having one good picture up there. You know, or, you know, you know, and so far we've talked about like listing videos as far as like if you're gonna do them do them, do them right, do them professionally.  But if there's…I think there's also room for, you know, more on the social media side. For the Facebook lives, Instagram lives, you know, the walkthroughs, the impromptu type stuff. You know, that's not gonna be professionally done edited, that's in on the fly type of thing. There's definitely room for that. But, you know, again have a purpose to it. Don't just be, you know, talking to talk or going live to, you know, to do it. And yeah I don't know.  What are you guys thoughts? Do you go live [Chris]: Nate? [Nathan]: No. Again… [Chris]: [laughter] “No. Not me. I don't do it.” [Nathan]:  I think a lot of these… [Christian]: I think in social media you can. [Nathan]: I think a lot of what we do right now is all dependent upon your market. And were, you know, buy or seller market. What, you know, what you're charging commission. I mean we talk about a lot of things. But a lot depends on what you charge. What condition is your market in. What…what's the house like. How much…you know, let's be honest, you know,  you're not gonna stage one hundred thousand dollar house with three thousand dollars furniture. You know, staging. Right. So it's all relative.  It's each…each situation is different. I am…like I said. I have not staged a house. I've not done video on a home. I do have one that I would consider doing video of. But I think a lot of it is overkill. It's just my opinion. Whatever you do in whoever you use just make sure they're reputable. Like here if I was to have video done, I'd called Joey…Joey T media. He does an awesome job and that's who I would hire. Right out the gate. So just make sure, you know, whatever you do it's…it's professional. That's…that's kind of where I'm at with it. [Chris]: You talked about Facebook live? And go and live on Facebook right now. Just as we're gonna wrap up this episode. [Nathan]: Oh God Almighty. [Chris]: Oh God Almighty. Heaven forbid I go on Facebook live Nate. Like really. So I mean Christian I think you've got some great points when it comes to listing media and making sure that the video is quality. Not using the stupid slideshows of images and how we do the…like the property panorama. What is it? What's the service that you have where you are? [Christian]: I mean whether it's a tool live or a factory. I mean if you wanna do a slideshow, do a slideshow. But don't call it a listing video. You know. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: Don't call it a virtual tour. [Chris]: Yeah it's a slideshow. It's not a listing video. It doesn't help market the property. Nobody's gonna look at it. Make sure that the quality's there. Or, you know, be like Nate and don't do any of it. Just be honest and, you know, what's your humor show. And there we go. [laughter] Christian is playing us back. [Christian]:  I'm watching you live well recording this.  [Chris]: Hey Christian Harris is watching. Bring them online. I'm not bringing you on camera Christian because… [Christian]: No that would be bizarre. We have like us some time vortex. [Chris]: Yeah be like…we will be looping back and forth for like minutes. So it's…it's important that we make sure that the quality of our marketing material is on par with the brand that we want to portray as our business. So, you know, any last words guys before we wrap this up? [Nathan]: No I'm good. [Christian]: Yeah….yeah I mean it's I'd say for any service you provide, any marketing, I mean it really comes down to what are you doing for the client. You know, like do you have… is this intentional or you just kind of like throwing stuff out there? You know, so whether you choose to do video or not, whether you choose to state or not. What…you know, like however you do stuff. Like make it consistent. If, you know, and…and set the expectations up front.  You know, if people are paying you to like be honest and, you know, you…you think all marketing is the same than hey or just, you know, say that out of the gate. You know, but if you think you really do something that kicks [censored] in marketing and that's why they're hiring you, hey make sure to emphasize that. [Chris]: Yeah when…what…definitely. And I will reiterate that. When it comes to your marketing, it is your name, it is your brand, it is you building your business. And if you want to be good at it you need to focus on all of the aspects of your business. You need to make sure that that media that you're putting out there to the public is a reflection of who you want to be. Period. So alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. this has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you on board. If you haven't already, please go to re:Think Real Estate's website which is rtre.podcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter. You'll get a notice every time a new episode drops. And please go on…find us on iTunes at re:Think Real Estate. Leave us a five star review. Tell us what you think about the website or about the podcast. You don't even have it…you don't even have to listen to us. For anybody that's watching on Facebook live right now, just go and leave us a review. We'll be happy. [Christian]: I think. I'm the only one live now.  [Chris]: Yeah one person that's watching live right now. More people will see it later. They're always watching the recaps. So thank you so much. We will see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode We've all been there. Life hits you like a freight train and knocks you off course. Today we discuss how to get the train back on its track. Tune in to hear about how we deal with death, struggle, and negative outside voices. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 28:18 RTRE 60 – Breaking Out of a Rut in Your Real Estate Business [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I'm Chris here with Christian and Nate is back. No longer sick. Welcome back Nate.  [Nathan]: Thanks. Thank you. [Chris]: Yes. All of energy today. [laughter]  [Christian]: He is possessed to be here. [Chris]: Oh. Let's see those jazz hands Nate. [Nathan]: Hold on. [laughter]. [Christian]: What are you typing? [Chris]: Not even…Not even ready to start. There we go.  [Christian]: Yeah don't worry about this.  [Chris]: So we were just talking before getting started here about, you know, what do you do when you're in a rut. Like you're just out of it, you know, listening to Nate's voice. He's in a rut right now. Even if it's just for the next hour. So like Christian what do you do when you're in a rut? Like how do you pull yourself out of it? [Christian]: I mean I'll tell you one thing that's key to not do and that's to quit, and to listen to the demons, you know, that are speaking…speaking lives in your head about how your failure and your, you know, nothing's ever gonna change and it's gonna be like this forever. I'm sure I'm just the only one that hears those negative thoughts but… [Chris]: It's gonna be like this forever. You're a failure. [Christian]: Don't listen to them. I know. See now I'm hearing the voices for real. This is so real. [Chris]: [laughter] In your headphones.  [Christian]: Yeah in my headphones. So that's the first thing you don't do. [Chris]: Yeah I gotta agree. [Christian]: For me personally, you know, I just kind of keep my head down and keep going. But I mean I lot of it depends on why I am in a rut. Is it like a family rut where relationships aren't going great? Is it work? Is it financial? You know. Because I think, you know, the solution to those are all gonna be a little different. But the key to getting out of those is leaning…leaning on people. You know, like being honest. Having people that can come around to you and speak truth into that. Whether it's co-workers or family members or, you know, besties, you know. Don't isolate yourself because that's…that's doesn't go well for most people. [Chris]: Gotta have your besties. Nate. [Nathan]: Yep. [Chris]: What do you think? [Nathan]: What's the question again? [Chris]: How do you get out of a rut. [Nathan]: Oh how do you get out of a rut. [Christian]: It's your topic buddy. [Chris]: Yeah this is your choice Mr. “I'm in a rut.”  [Nathan]: How do you…You know, I don't know. You got to find, you know, how you used to work triggers. You got to find….one you got to be able to identify you're in a rut. Right. I mean, you know, yeah I just kind of went through one. Yeah I was sick for a week. Had some unfortunate family things happen. And, you know, it was just [censored] death of you. I mean it's what it was but you know it side tracks you. Right. You know, as I call it the…the train gets off the rail. So you one you got to recognize that the…the freaking train you're on is off the rails. And then you got to figure out what's the trigger to get it back on. You know, for me it's being very scheduled and stuff. And just it's…I don't know you have to just recommit.  You know, what's the…I used to have a mentor who used to say “You kind of have to recenter the salt on the plate.” And I think that's what you got to do. You got to be able to identify it. You got to figure out, you know, why you're in it. OK get out of it, you know, and then , you know, there's certain things. I don't know you can read motivational stuff. I mean Gary Vee I, you know, it's not for all people but he's for me. And I can get on a pity party and he gets me out of the pity party. So [Christian]: Yeah nice kick to the junk to get you back on track. [Nathan]: Yeah and I think in our industry, I think we all get kind of jaded at times. You get….you get I don't know. You get frustrated and then you get sidetracked.  [Christian]: And it's just you. [Nathan]: Yeah all right. [Chris]: No it's definitely not just you.  [Nathan]: Yeah I know it's everybody. I was talking with a colleague the other day and, you know, he said “Man I just…” he said “I didn't do [censored] for six months.” And now you know, he knew it. He identified it. But, you know, he's like the worst part is now I gotta play catch-up. I, you know, we all, you know, we get these peaks and valleys. And I don't…I don't like to get in those peaks and valleys. I like to have, you know, a nice steady stream of income. Right. [Chris]: Well six months is a little bit too long. That…that's not all right. Six months is an active decision to say “You know what, I'm just not gonna work.” [Nathan]: Yeah. [Christian]: I think it's called clinical depression. [Nathan]: Yeah well, you know, he was working on his home doing some other things. Fine. But… [Christian]: OK so he's just distracted. [Nathan]: He's just distracted and I think we all can get distracted. And then I think we just get frustrated. You know, we can get in our own way. So and, you know, it's, you know, you hear a realtor say “Oh I'm…” You know, we talked about this before. You know, “I'm so busy” And you say “What do you have going on?” And they're like “Oh I got one house in contract.” But you're so busy like…I don't know. It's…when I'm not busy, I'm not busy. You know, I don't even like the question what people say “Oh it's spring time right now. You're, you know, you must be busy as all get out. I'm steady. I'm not busy as I'll get out. But when you talk to me in November, December, January and February, guess what? You get the same response. Versus a lot of people say “Well I ain't got nothing going on.” So staying out of a rut I think is important. I think it's important that you identify how long you're in one. And it only took two weeks to get in one. Just because of, you know, being sick. And we're all self-employed. Right. o… [Chris]: Yeah I think I think one of the things is it doesn't take too long to get into a rut. Like one thing can happen and throw you completely off the rails. And then it…you have to go through…well depending upon what it is, you've got to go through these stages of healing to kind of get back into your groove. So if it's…if, you know, if it's family that's throwing, you know, things at you that are like “Oh, you know, what you're wasting your time. You're not in a good environment. The industry is gonna end soon. Your real estate agents are gonna be obsolete. Everything's gonna be AI in tech.” I just got that from my [censored] father the other day. And… [Christian]: Ouch. [Chris]: Yeah like “Really, no I…I don't think it is but, you know, that…that's great that you're encouraging me. I really appreciate that.” But you got to go through this stage of accepting what has happened. Seeing it from, you know, multiple points of view. Realizing that, you know, you're either making the right decision and then you double down on your decision, or there's some corrective action that needs to happen. And then you need to make the corrective action. [Christian]: I mean I'd say that, this is kind of cliché, but I definitely say that it's very important to…as you're trying to, you know, realize, you know, “OK what's…what set me in this rut and how do I get out?” is to try to only focus on things that you can affect. Right. As most of stuff in our life we have no control over. You can't control other agents, can't control the market. You control what you do and how focused you are. And, you know, your attitude and all that kind of stuff.  But I'd say that's definitely key to getting out of it is not…not, you know, what we call catastrophizing, if that's a word, which I don't think it is. But, you know, essentially… [Nathan]: It sounds great. [Chris]: Yeah if it's not a word it sounds like a word and it should be a word. So yeah… [Christian]: It's…it's a word that would they use in in the military's newer…what they call it, resiliency training . Essentially, you know, one of the keys to, you know, not getting in a rut or recognizing when you are going into rut is recognizing, you know, a mindset that's a downward spiral of catastrophizing everything. Where, you know, one thing happens and then you just assume the worst and then that, you know, self-fulfilling prophecy happens. And you keep spiraling downwards as opposed to, you know, “OK let's look at the big picture. Let's not think of the worst thing let's think of, you know, outcomes that are positive and, you know, be optimistic as opposed to pessimistic”, you know.  This is one of the mental tricks of, you know, how are you going to position yourself mentally to get out of the rut. As opposed to, you know, staying in that rut. [Chris]: I like that. That's really good. So Nate, cuz you ran for 24 hours last year, what was like what was going on in your head and do you think that any of those things could be used to get you out of a rut ? [Nathan]: Well I'm getting ready to run for twelve hours soon again. I think it's just it's…it's a semental staying power if you would. Because what's the easiest thing to do in any of those scenarios are with what we do for a living, what's the easiest thing to do? [censored] it. Quit. Right. [Chris]: Like quit. Don't even… [Nathan]: Just quit. Right. I mean I think what most people don't realize and, you know, I can use it running wise or even and, you know, in this rut…What we think of and perceive is something that maybe feels like forever, is really not that long of a period of time. Right. When I did that race out in Colorado or run out in Colorado, there was a gentleman that, you know, he quit after, you know, about 16 hours. And he said “I can't do it anymore.” And I said “Dude just take a break. Don't leave the course. If you leave the, you know, if you leave the course, you can't restart. But you can you could take a rest, that's fine. It's OK. If you want a rest for thirty minutes or three hours then you could start back up on whatever mile you're on.”  Right. And he said no he couldn't do it. He went back to his hotel. About twenty three hours and thirty minutes into it I seen him at the finish line, start/finish line. And, you know, him lapping through and he comes and pulls up beside me and starts running. And I was like “What are you doing back out here?” He's like “I should have listened to you.” He's like “I left. I got back to the hotel. I took 30 minutes. Laid down and I was like nah I feel great now.”  So I think what we do is it's…it's how we perceive that. Right. like “Oh you're in a rut.” And I have been in a rut for two weeks. And it's that like Christian said, you get the self-fulfilling prophecy. And then it does spiral out of control. Right. versus if we can kind of slam the [censored] brakes on things, and go “Hold up. All right. Reset.” And…and grab a hold of it by the balls a little bit, you know, then…then you've got a good opportunity. But I think we just we, you know, society as a whole and what, you know, whether it's real estate or not, we…we just get caught up in that bad moment. So you got to be more optimistic than pessimistic. [Christian]: Yeah well I think it also help if, you know, kind of speaking to people getting into the industry, if there was a more realistic portrayal of what it's like to be a new agent. Because I mean I've, you know, speaking of our first quarter was very, very rough financially. And we have like five agents that just gave up. Just “I'm done. I'm not renewing my license. This was too hard.” And it's kind of that lack of resiliency because they'd…I don't think they had a realistic expectations coming into it. They're like “You can't just sit on YouTube while you, you know, quote to do your calls.” [laughter] Like you're not gonna get…You know, so there's a lack of resiliency. There's a lack of hustle. A lack of urgency and then, you know, no matter what, you know, your brokerage does, or people come up alongside you, they don't do it. They don't listen. And then they quit. And you're like “Yeah I kind of saw the writing on the wall.”  You're like, you know, it's…from the perspective of a broker like it's really easy to become jaded. And, you know, my version of a rut looks differently, you know, because I'm looking at agents and productivity and, you know, margins. And that kind of stuff. From agent perspective, you know, it's trying to get business, you know, having people say no to you. Or if you're new to an area trying to figure out how to get the word out there. And, you know, that kind of stuff. But either way it comes down to like not giving up, being resilient when things don't go perfectly, not letting that spiral and ruin the rest of your day.  [Nathan]: I would agree. [Chris]: Definitely, you know, you've got to be able to compartmentalize a little bit to know “Hey, you know what this is not that big of a deal.” Or, “You know what, this sucks. But, you know, I gotta keep ploughing on because if I stop I'm never gonna get this done. I'm never gonna hit my goal. So I've got to keep going.”  You know, it took, you know, I was in a rut a few weeks ago. And it took me a good five to six days to work my way through it. And it wasn't until I kind of saw some things from a different angle that, you know, it was…I realized, you know what, what I was doing was correct. And, you know, this one situation was an outlier. And it really didn't affect what I was doing as much as I thought it would. [Christian]: Yeah I mean a lot of what we're talking about here is your perspective. Right. And earlier I mentioned not letting yourself be isolated. And the reason for that is that other people can bring a perspective that you don't have. You know, they're looking at that from the outside. Where you may be, you know, kind of myopically looking at your feet. And, you know, where you just stumbled while they're looking at the big picture of like “But look at all this potential and look at where you came from and look at what's ahead of you.”  You know, I think that's very important to have that community around you, of people that can speak into you. Well that's your spouse or business partner or whatever. [Chris]: And sometimes you don't even want to hear it. Sometimes you're just like “You know what, I…I'm not even gonna listen” and you have to hear from some like third party that has nothing to do with you. Because, you know, those that are closest to us sometimes we feel like they're just, you know, boosting us up. And it's not authentic. [Christian]: Right. And then your wife says “That's what I've been saying to you.” And you're like “Oh sorry.”. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: I get that [censored] all the time. My wife's like “Why wouldn't you just listen to me. That's what I was telling you.” And I am like “Oh [censored] you're right.” [Nathan]: Well that's…that's the funny flipside of being resilient. Another word for that could be stubborn. Or [laughter] hard-headed, you know. So what keeps you driving for it could also be what keeps you from listen to people. So … [Chris]: Yeah I think not so much that, but we have…we have this tendency that if something shakes us to our core. like that we're…if something happens it's that messes us up and throws us way off track, then we have this tendency to not exactly trust everything that we've done, up until that point 100%. So if there's something…if there's something that's in our core circle that's telling us something and then whatever happens throws us off our game, then we're gonna immediately have a certain distrust for this. And we're gonna go to an outside source to verify whether we're right or wrong. And once we do that, if we verify “You know what, what we've been doing is right.” then we come back to that circle and like “You know what, everything here is good.” We're happy. If something's wrong then we're gonna come back to that circle and be like “Wait what the [censored] is going on here? Like why…why are you saying this. Or, you know, why didn't…why…” You get it. Yeah it's…it's not just about listening to those that are closest to us. It's a mental thing. Like if something…mentally we've got to recenter ourselves. [Christian]: It sounds like you're saying that insecurity creeps in, depending on where we feel like things went wrong. [Chris]: Yeah definitely. And I mean it all depends on whatever happens. Right. because sometimes it's something small and it's not a big deal and it maybe, you know, maybe it's something that we're just disappointed in, and it's gonna take us, you know, a few minutes to get over. Or maybe it's something…maybe it's a personal attack or something that a relative is going in, the new agents is going. You're not making any money. You need to stop. Right. This is…you're…you're wasting your time, you're wasting your money, you're wasting our money, if it's a spouse. You know, even if you're doing the right things you may have not planned long enough. Nothing ever happens fast enough. Nothing ever happens, you know, the way that we want it. So you've got to kind of have that margin of error that you can work with. [Christian]: Sure and when you come into with…realistic expectations. Right. I mean so much of what happens in relationships that goes wrong, or getting in a rut that…that, you know, the reason we get there is because expectations are unmet, or our situation changes. You know, like if…if we think is gonna be easy and it's not, you know, we get in a rut. If, you know, we expect to make more money in the first quarter than we did, you know, it's easy getting in a rut. I mean it's just kind of…and not letting those quote failures drive you or dictate you. Because I mean what, you know, one man's failures is another person's learning, try opportunity. Yeah and that's something I've had to learn. Is like theoretically I understood. You know, as this ethereal concept I understood that failure was inevitable, and I need to be able to learn from that. But than going through that, that's experientially a lot different.  [Nathan]: So I need to get over this whole thing of how my job interferes me living my best life. [Chris]: You have the one job that you not interfere with you living your best life. [Nathan]: I don't have a job.  [Christian]: This is coming from the guy who's taken like several vacation this month to go down to…[crosstalk] [Nathan]: I know. I know. Listen you…listen I don't even have a job. I have…I do something I enjoy and love. I'm fortunate that I don't even do it as a job. I get to do what I enjoy. [Chris]: That's good. [Christian]: Yeah well let's…let's take us a little deeper and more personal. I mean Nate you kind of brought up the subject, cuz this last couple weeks have been pretty rough for you. I mean what have you found to be helpful kind of getting out of this rut for you? [Chris]: And first do you need to lay down on the therapist couch and put five cents in the jar? [Nathan]: No. Again it's…what's been helpful for me I mean again it's…I think, you know, what's the old saying? You know, you you're the average of the five people you spend the most time around. So I think it's also about the people you surround yourselves with. And that, you know, when you do get in that, they'll help you with that. You know, or they'll, you know, they'll they're kind of champion you and…and support you to say, you know, “Hey yeah…” You know, when you say “I'm in a rut or I'm this” they'll…they'll boost those spirits.  And it won't be an ego boost. It won't be one of those things like “You're the best thing in the world next to cotton candy.” But they know how to push you in the right direction to support you. And I think that's what…having that support is important. And I mean that ranges from colleagues that I have, to neighbors, to a wife. Like, you know, it's…it's all those things. You know, it…it makes, you know, surviving that period of time easier.  And…and sometimes you just need that outer push. And you also need it…I think you need the people around you that are honest with you. You know, what I mean? [Chris]: You don't need “Yes men. Yes.” [Nathan]: Yeah right. Yeah you need somebody to go tell you the truth. I mean that's, you know, that's, you know, my friends, the people I surround myself with will tell me, you know, what they think. And…and sometimes I don't want to hear it. [censored] A lot of times I don't want to hear it. But it is what I needed to hear. [Christian]: Sure. No one likes hearing the hard truth. [Nathan]: Yeah, no you know. [Chris]: But to be able to appreciate it though when it's in front of you. [Nathan]: Yeah. Yeah you're right. [Chris]: That's one of the hard…the hardest thing that I've found is when, you know, getting that criticism. Whe…when you just want to wall up and go into like active defence mode. Like just letting your body language relax. Having, you know, open gestures and trying to be open-minded to put yourself in the other person's shoes, and see what they're seeing.  [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: And then trying to see if there's some corrective action that needs to be made there. That's…that's hard when you just go into like “Alright go ahead, give me the feedback because it's rare that I ever get feedback like this. So, you know, take advantage of it while you can.” [Christian]: Sure. Well it can be challenging too because, you know, no one's perfect and no feedback is gonna be perfect. So you have to like decide “OK what's an honest truth that I need to hear” versus “OK that part is kind of [censored]. I'm gonna not take that, you know, what I'll take, you know, kind of not throw the baby off the bathwater.” Like taking the truth where you find it whether that's in, you know, quote a rival or enemy, or that's in someone who's, you know, really close to you and has your best interest at mind. You know, like that could be…it can be challenging. Because, you know, typically I find that if you're playing it safe, there's gonna be a lot less friction and a lot less controversy and criticism. If you're really pushing the bounds, that's when things get tough and people can get ugly. So… [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: You know, I know how to…at least I know how to do it. I know how to have a fight with myself. If that makes any sense. You find out [crosstalk] Yeah I know how to like… [Chris]: Elaborate on that. [Christian]: Yes do. [Nathan]: Because you've got to be willing to call your own [censored]. Right. You've got to be willing to kind of punch yourself in the face. Right. you've got to be… [Christian]: I need to watch conversations with you. [Nathan]: Yeah. Right. That's a staff meeting. Remember? It again it's, you know, you…it's like…I mean it sounds crazy but it's having that conversation in your head of “Hey Nathan, stop being a pussy and do what you know, what you need to do. Get your [censored] up off the couch. Or wake up on time. Or eat right. Or whatever it is. You're not doing these things. Stop…stop [censored] yourself.” And just having that honest, you know, that David Goggin [phonetics] said, you know, “You got to be able to look that man in the mirror.” Right. And that man in the mirror is, you know, me. And so if you can't have that honest fight, dialogue with yourself internally, I don't think it matters what anybody tells you then. [Christian]: Well the starting place for that is being self-aware. Like if you don't know yourself like you're gonna have a real tough time having that honest conversation. [Nathan]: Well most people can't do that though. They live in some [censored] fairyland. [Christian]: Well yeah, you know, I mean we all have our blind spots. Some people are more aware than…than others, you know. [crosstalk] The most important thing in life is…is being honest about that, you know.  [Nathan]: Right. Sorry. I don't know. You gotta find what works for you. I know what works for me. [Christian]: Yeah you…you be unique. [Nathan]: I'm good at doing that. Chris are we gonna wrap it up? [Chris]: Yeah so I think we…we hit on some good points. The…I think no matter where you are in your career you're gonna get hit with something that's gonna throw you off your game. You're gonna…you're gonna have a Nate moment where you got to be in front of the mirror and you got to kick yourself in the [censored].  You know, one of the things that I tell some of the new agents is, you're always gonna have a boss. And even when you're self-employed you still have a boss. It's the person in the mirror. And who do you want to work for? Do you want to work for a strong leader? Somebody who's going to step up and challenge the things that needs to be challenged to make sure that things are getting done that need to be done? Somebody that's gonna keep it on track? Or do you want to work for somebody who is just very lackadaisical and doesn't really care when you clock in?  And you have a boss, whether you're working for somebody else or yourself. So it's just a matter of making sure that you're doing the right things for you. When you get stuck in a rut, you got to pull yourself out of it. One way or another.  [Nathan]: Yeah, you know, Henry David Thoreau [phonetics] comes to mind. Sorry. Pulling out the big gun. But, you know, he said “What lies…what lies ahead of us and what lies behind us are small matters compared to what lies within us. And when you bring what's within you, out into the world, great things happen.” Right so, you know, I think you gotta remember what's inside. [Chris]: We need to set up Nate's…Nate's motivational quotes of the week. [Christian]: I know that's good. That's a good one. And as kind of closing thoughts…kind of reflecting on our conversation here. You know, obviously people's struggles are vary based on them, their personality, situation and what not. A lot of we've been saying is, you know, kind of “Don't give up. Keep trying. Push harder.” Yeah that kind of stuff. But I also want to say that it's not entirely up to you or it's not just about working hard or trying harder. Because sometimes, you know, you push too hard and you work too much and you get sick. And, you know, your body forces you to…to take a break. So I know for me one thing that's rejuvenating, and it can help me get out of a rut sometimes even when I feel like my rut is I have too much to do, is to act…intentionally take a break. Spend more time with the family. Unplug from work. Now some agents, you know, err on that side too much. Where, you know, spend too much time…they spend too much time relaxing. And not enough time working. I don't think that's our problem. And I think that's a lot of agents problems.  But give yourself permission to take a break, rejuvenate, spend time with family, you know, not always be…be working. Because sometimes that's all it takes to get out of a rut.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, it's…sometimes it's hard for…for agents to take off, you know, an entire week from work. Just do a few long weekends every now and then. You don't have to…you don't have to take off a week or two weeks. Sometimes that's…that's not realistic. But make sure that your mental health is in check. And that you're taking some time to decompress and unwind and put things in perspective. What I've found is that when…when I'm able to do that, I'll come back with some new ideas. Because I'm not thinking about, you know, the day-to-day. I'll be able to just kind of, you know, day dream. Whatever it is. Read a good book and come back with, you know, a new perspective on what we're doing. So couldn't agree more with you Christian. Nate great points.  Everybody thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of re:Think Real Estate. If you haven't already ,please go to the website which is rtrepodcast.com. sign up for the newsletter so you never miss an episode, whenever we drop one, which is every single week. Thanks for tuning in everybody. We'll see you next week. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Today Nathan throws out a surprise topic for us to discuss. We talk about the questions people should ask when determining whether a brokerage is for them or not. We want to know what you love best about your brokerage. In the comments tell us what your favorite part is! RTRE_Ep_48  Audio length 29:24 RTRE 48 – What to Ask When Choosing a Brokerage [music] [Chris]:Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White and Christian Harris. Guys what's going on guys? [Nathan]: Hey what's happening? I am trying to stay warm in the polar vortex here but it's only one day people so don't panic, it's not a week long. [Nathan]: How cold is it there right now? [Christian]: It's about 7 degrees. It's the end of January we're recording this.  [Chris]: It's gone up a little bit since we talked last. Our entire state shut down for a little bit of rain so Georgia is closed now [laughter]. [Nathan]: And if it even gets flurries in Georgia it's like the apocalypse like it's hysterical. [Chris]: Well I mean no joke we are 5 years to the date from Snowmageddon. Like the time hop came up on Facebook “5 years to the date from Snowmageddon today”. And last time that happened I ended up having to walk 11 miles on icy roads back to the house because my car wasn't getting me there. So…Yeah I mean Georgia does not know how to deal with that stuff. [Christian]: It's legit. [Nathan]: Like 2 inches of snow or just a little ice? [Chris]: It wasn't 2 inches but it was like a maybe a quarter inch of snow on top of an inch of ice.  [Christian]: Ice will…Ice will mess up your day so… [Chris]: Yeah ice did it.  [Nathan]: When you were talking about ice I saw that you were talking about something. [Chris]: No yeah so… [Nathan]: What are we gonna talk about? [Chris]: Nate is gonna surprise us with today's topic. [Nathan]:[censored]. [Chris]: Nate what are we talking about today? [Nathan]: So you know we've talked about this before but I am gonna go to the…you know we're in a public group. I think all 3 of us are on it. The…the Inman coast to coast and somebody earlier this week posted again about how to choose a brokerage. And I want to say maybe it was Tanya or somebody. I forget who put the…the questions to ask out there.  But did you guys see that about an agent going to choosing a brokerage? Because some of this I agree with, some I don't agree with at all so I thought it might be good to go back and talk a little bit more about this. Maybe we have some new agents since we started doing this that you know are in that struggle bus of “Hey I am stuck here” or “I don' know what to do. I didn't…I didn't choose right”. And so these questions…These questions [background noise] Whats that? Sorry. [Christian]: Did you just say struggle bus? [Nathan]: Yeah. Struggle bus. [laughter]. [Christian]: OK I just wanted to make sure I heard that right. OK. [Nathan]: Yeah so if you guys check your email I just sent you that.  [Chris]: Yeah I am looking at it right now. [Nathan]: Right so like if you look through some of this like I don't know if I agree with all of this. Of course I never agree with everything, right. [Chris]: You never agree with anything. [Christian]: You're super agreeable. What are you talking about? [Nathan]: I am so… [Chris]: You're the “Yes man”. [Nathan]: Oh my God you all are ridiculous. [laughter] [Christian]: I am…I looked over this a little bit… [Chris]: I am seeing this for the first time. Let's talk through it. [Christian]: So you're talking about…You're talking about kind of the generic agent guide to choosing brokerage that is out there? [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Yeah. We're not gonna say who it is put out by but there's a guide out there. Alright so first step in this guide research. What's this? “Pull MLS numbers for at least 3 years for the office. Volume, transaction count, map the transaction if your MLS offers that feature. Know how far from the office they are.”  I don't know. If you're a new agent, you don't have access to the MLS.  [Christian]: Yeah. So what I found in general is that whatever brokers you go to in you're quote interviewing with them they're going to spat out the stuff that makes them look best right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So if they're agent heavy they're gonna be like “Oh we dominate the market by agent numbers”. If they're you know actually killing it in volume or, you know, gross sales that's what they're gonna…that's what they're gonna highlight.  So you know the thing is if you're a new agent how does the brokerage production help you? I mean it…it doesn't directly. Now it might indirectly because OK maybe there is a lot of experienced agents that you can shadow or piggy back on. But just because they're productive doesn't mean it will help you do yours. They're busy. You know and now they're hinting like if you have in mind “OK I am gonna do open houses.” OK you're gonna need an office that has listings , you know. Now you don't need it in there they're not here. You can call other agents and brokerages if they're willing to collaborate… [Chris]: What they do that? [Christian]: Well it's not…it's not a culturally…I don't know. Some do. You know if they have a more collaborative mind set. I mean I all about that but not…Most franchises don't have that. Might be more in the “Protect your own” mind set. So…They'd rather not do an open house rather than have someone from another broker do their open house. [Chris]: That should never happen. Not in my state. [Nathan]: Well you know here's another one on here that really tripped me up. This is a value aid and establish. “Why the office of the brokerage you're interviewing with is or isn't successful.”  How do you define success in a brokerage? [Christian]: Right what are your metrics success? [Nathan]: Right I mean. [Christian]: Numbers and profitability but you're not gonna know the profitability numbers. [Nathan]: Right. I mean you know our brokerage doesn't do a gazillion transactions but I believe the ones that we do do are very high quality. So, meaning from…you know from a client experience. So again I don't know you know if that counts or not. It's like saying “Oh I am hearing another party say look at agent reviews on yelp or Zillow”. I mean [censored] I am not interviewing like…That's not applicable to me I guess so I struggle… [Christian]: But when it comes to researching a brokerage what would you say? I mean I don't think these are super valid because they center around like on traditional like sales like…Do they do a lot of business? And that than quantifies whether they're a good brokerage which I think has nothing to do with is a good brokerage or not. Maybe.  I mean I guess you could kind of determine market saturation or market share but again as a new agent is that really gonna help you I mean unless you're in a small town and there is a dominant brokerages and a bunch of other small ones that don't do anything. I mean here in Seattle there's tons of brokerage and they all have their…they're all getting those things. They're all doing sales. You know it's not one, It's like crushing it you know. [Chris]: Well I think it all depends because everybody's definition of success in real estate is different.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: You know I was speaking to one of my agents about this the other day because as we bring in agents you know depending upon where they are in their life cycle they may have different goals. Like some of our agents are retired from one career. Do we expect that those agents are going to hustle and grind and built a massive business working hundreds of hours every month just for a few years? Probably not. You know those people are probably getting into this to do a few transactions a year, have a place to come, learn, hang out, interact with people and have fun.  And then we have some other people that are getting into this for the exact reason I just mentioned. They want to grow something big. And it's not our job as the brokerage to define what that success is. That's up to them. Our goal is to provide the infrastructure, the culture, the support necessary for them to build what they want to build. At least that's my philosophy on it and you know…go ahead. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's a good point is that there's not one definition of success as an agent. You know there's gonna be the younger people that don't have family and nothing better to do but grind it out for 80 hours a week. Other ones that are mostly, you know, full time, stay at home parents or something that are gonna do occasional job, you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So this question that they ask in here, this bullet point I think is excellent which is “Ask the broker about his or her story as an agent, team lead, sales manager or broker owner. To what do they attribute their success? And you want to under…you want to uncover his or her core beliefs about what makes a successful agent”.  I think that is an excellent point. When you're…when you're looking for finding out what firm you want to work for it's gonna be the team of people that you're surrounding yourself with and knowing their core values. If they're not transparent about it. If they're transparent about it you should know their core values you know within you know the first round of interviews with them. But if they're not asking questions like this would be fantastic as an agent looking to find a right…a different brokerage.  [Nathan]: Yeah I agree. That's…That's a helpful question in there. Some of the ones like I said I struggled with. That one is good. I was talking to somebody the other day and they said “What about getting this person to come in and be a manager”. And I was like “Yeah but the problem with them managing is they don't actually have any history”.  I have a big struggle on my struggle bus that there Mr. Harris [laughter] for people who coach or who lead that don't have any history or is very minimal. And so how do you…Say somebody is running this office or brokerage X and they go in and they're recruiting and you ask them you know “How's your history” and they go “Well you know I stopped selling 10 years ago now I just coach”.  I kind of look at somebody like [censored]. Like that's not even relevant now. 10 years I mean that's like 100 years in real estate world so I don't think you would be helpful. I think you have to be current and I think you need to be somewhat of a producing broker to a degree or one that is heavily involved with their agents' development and still maybe…I don't know you guys would probably tell me I am wrong since I am the agent you all are the brokers but you know you only have to do a couple transactions a year just to stay fresh I would feel like. But to tune out I think it would be a mistake.  [Christian]: Yeah I think that's kind of a good point in regards to like I was listening to…I had something in Inman Connects New York livestream this morning and someone was talking about the difference between the focus of the brokerage and the agent or specifically in that context the team. And the brokerage model, traditional brokerage model is head count. They focus solely on head count.  Now you may do that through you know training or some other low thing to lure agents in. But [cough] I think part of the brokerage responsibility is when you're interviewing an agent flashing out “What are your goals for the expectations? Can we match that?” Or you know. Now maybe most brokerages don't care. We're smaller so I think we can kind of customize or at least make sure it's gonna be a good fit. Because one of these questions in here is ask if you can ride along, you know basically shadow an experienced agent. Because I mean that's a great way for a new agent to learn.  Now Chris I know you have like a required mentor program which is great but that's one of the…as many awesome things to see on offers that's one of our weak spots is that we're not huge and so we don't have a lot of agents that can you know that have enough business to be able to “Hey we have a new agent can they shadow you on your listing today?” Like… [Chris]: It took us a while to get to that. [Christian]: Yeah it's gonna take a while. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But I think that's good because I did…the one agent I had lost and you know there's nothing I could have really done about it is just the nature of how big we are was they wanted to, you know, shadow someone's business. Someone who is you know doing a lot of business. And we just don't have a ton of agents doing you know huge amounts of business everyday. You know so they left so they can mentor under someone who was. And I totally get that, you know. Hopefully it won't get to the pace where, you know, that won't be an issue. But we're small, new and scrappy so you know your strengths and you know your weaknesses. [Chris]: Yeah I think that I saw here a description of the office culture, head count, tenure of the agents, breaking it down into head count and turning it over rate, the agent or broker's involvement in the local, regional NAR leadership. The broker agents' involvement in state and national associations, outside or NAR and the broker and agent involvement in local community school boards, charities.  I think that's a pretty good description of an office. Like if you can as a broker owner…If I am sitting down having a conversation with somebody these are things that I know and can recite you know in my sleep about who is doing what because these are things that we promote. But, you know, having an office that encourages involvement…A lot of offices don't do it maybe because they're afraid that when they put their agents around other agents the other agents are gonna try and recruit them.  That's not necessarily the case because there are a lot of agents that I get around that I don't want to recruit. Being in those positions. But it's still important that when we're in this industry that we do our best to support our industry and that when we are serving our communities we are doing the best to support our communities through local charities and organizations.  So having a company that supports that stuff goes to describe how their culture operates and it puts the priorities in perspective you know and just know that with turnover rate it's not always…Sometimes that needs a description. Because for us right now we're releasing agents 2 to 1 because we have become a lot more selective in who we are hiring than who we are letting go. We are letting a lot of licenses laps that are non-performers and that's one of the reasons that our productivity has gone from like 300k per person to like 1.1 million per person. So there are other things in there that need to be picked and taken into account. [Christian]: Yeah and I would say that that focus on culture is because big I mean it's really easy to quantify your split or you [cough] some of these other things that agents tend to focus on like how much money are they gonna be taking home. Now what that doesn't take into account is well “Is the brokerage is gonna support me? Am I gonna flourish there? I am I gonna hate it when I am working around. Am I gonna hate doing the work you know into the office you know. Are you gonna be part of something bigger that you're on board with?”  And I think all that closely ties into like the brand of the brokerage. What are they known for? Are they involved? Do they encourage agents involvement? And really if you hone that as a brokerage and you have a line with your agents and that's what they're drawn to you're not gonna be afraid of losing them because a big franchise down the road that doesn't have, you know, a healthy culture like that or doesn't…Isn't known for something other than name recognition of their franchise. Like there's nothing there for them. Like they're gonna love who they're asked you know what you provide. You know it's really hard to quantify that cultural experience, that feeling of satisfaction of knowing “Doing what I am doing, I am involved, I am helping, I am part of the listing and not just you know a number on the spreadsheet”. [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: Well you know if you look at this document I mean it's great but I really think they could have skipped all the way to the bottom and point 4 like the bullet points there I think is perfect. “Do you fully understand what a brokerage is offering here?”. What I find most agents even when they switch to another one still don't understand what they're getting offered. “Do you trust the broker?” You would be working with them. I think that's important. “Do the claims of the brand line up with everything that is isn't offered to agents and clients.” “Do the principals and beliefs align with those of brokers and managers?” That's huge. “Does the brokerage provide what you need now in the future and for the development?” Like to me that sums up the only questions you need to answer almost but above the other stuff. Yeah. [Christian]: And I think it kind of makes sense. I mean I think it could be more concise but I mean those are kind of the…These are bottom line what you wanna make sure you're getting and all the questions up above will help you get to those answers.  [Nathan]: Right I mean those are the…That's the guts of my struggle bus for those people. I…And the reason I say like when you don't want people to make a switch…I've got a colleague who just made switch to another brokerage. And when she left her original one she thought you know  “Hey you know I understand everything”.  She went to the new one and 6 months down the road she went “I didn't really understand the numbers”. And I was like…you know I don't want to use her name but “Hey Sussie how did you not of all people”. Like I expected her to really understand the numbers and she didn't. I think she actually might have paid more at the new brokerage that she went to. You know because she originally left brokerage number 1 because her fees were so high. She goes the second one. Didn't know the math well and ended up paying more.  [Chris]: Sure. [Christian]: Well I think that tied into the “Do you trust the brokerage”. I had an agent who…who I think had made up her mind you know that she was gonna leave. You know it implements new monthly fee because we're losing money on not producing brokers…not producing agents. And I am like “Kate you may think that you're gonna pay less over here but let's talk about this”.  And you know after talking about it and she talks to some other people about “Oh I didn't realize that I had to be a member of the NAR which is another $600 every…” whatever, “I didn't realize that they also did desk fee” and blah blah blah and than I was like “OK you actually have it really good here”.  You know and so…and maybe you know putting some of that back on media and brokerage. Can you get the value there and so she thought she would find it somewhere else. But half the time you know they end up leaving thinking the grass is greener. And than “Oh hey they were sold at fallen stolen goods” you know. You don't realize it until after you leave. After you go somewhere else.  [Nathan]: Right. Right they don't understand it. [Chris]: I got that from a couple of agents. They left and now they want to come back and they were on like one of our old legacy plans and they don't get that option anymore. And that they're like “Oh [laughter] wow this is gonna cost me more?”. Like “Yeah yeah we're doing a lot more now. You had it good. You lost”. So I mean that's another thing for agents. If you're thinking about making a move see what your broker can do.  If you're moving…there was an article that came out a little while ago about why agents make a move. And a lot of brokers think that number 1 is because of the cost. But it's not. I think one of the number 1 reasons is the number 1 and number 2 but it was “Is the broker in their corner? Does the broker have their back?” And then the other one was “What is the culture like at the office?” Because if a lot of…for the most part brokers are gonna make relatively smaller amounts of money. And it's all gonna depend on what they're offering and what their expenses are but you know we're gonna make our profit margin. Hopefully. That's the goal. And if… [Christian]: Wait you're profitable? That must be nice [laughter]. [Chris]: We're investing a lot of it back into the company. But we are making what we need to be making off of them so that we can invest it back into the company and our agents see that but the second thing is culture. Are you working in an environment that you feel that you have the people around you supporting you?  And those 2 were the biggest reasons that agents make jumps. It's not because of the desk fees. It's not because of the NAR fees. It's not because of the monthly fees. Sometimes it is but usually that's when we see people going from very high splits to something that is a little bit more along the lines of the Indie broker margin. Kind of the Indie broker model. Where we have a little bit more flexibility there and we lose the franchise fees. But other than that it's culture and is “Does the broker have my back? Is the office there to support me?” [Christian]: I definitely have to agree with that. I think a lot of agents lead with the cost but I mean in the grand scheme of things I mean there's not…If you're productive I mean what you're gonna end up paying isn't that different over you know a year. You know but it does come down to that culture and that…what was that other thing you said? [Chris]: Culture and support. [Christian]: Culture and? Support yes. Yeah that's huge because I have had agents that come over you know who come over because they're like “How available are you? I can't get a hold of my broker when I have questions for 2 days.” And I am like “That's ridiculous. What are they doing? It's their job”. [laughter]  You know and so it being smaller and not having so many agents and you seeing my primary job and been in the office to support agents you know I mean that's big you know. And just a tip. If you had an office you're not really sure what their culture is, if you want to get a good gage of it pay attention to how they respond when an agent leaves. If they're nasty and two faced get out of there. Get out of that office.  And that was my first office. Like day to day it was OK. It wasn't openly hostile but as soon as you know…Someone who you know agent X was quote “friends” with and helping out one day and they left and the next day they're “Oh that person I knew blah blah blah they're terrible”. And you're gonna be like “What aren't we all in this together? What's this brand loyalty to a franchise that doesn't have your back? Like what do you care as an agent whether or not another agent left?” Like you know like they're being personally, like a personal slide against you know the agent that another agent left.  [Nathan]: Man the colleague that I was talking about earlier when she left her original team you know they went [laughter] Death Con 4 on her. I was like “You don't want to be in a place like that”. Like… [Christian]: It shows your true colors either as an agent or you know as…Like if I hear that as a broker I squash that. I am like “No we are collaborative, we are all on this together. I want what's best for them and if they feel going to another brokerage gives them what they need he no pep talk. I want to support them in there”.  [Nathan]: That makes me think of Tracey Chambers, who is my first team lead. I was…the team lead at the office at Callow Aims [phonetics] and I will applaud her. When I told her I was leaving she said “Nathan I wish you all the best and if you ever want to come back here know the door is always opened and I will welcome you with open arms and if you have any questions feel free to call me”. I still call her. She was awesome and that tells you a lot about her.  [Christian]: And speaks to character and that's what's gonna be the biggest differentiator and the difference between agents. It's not skills, not experience, it's character. Are you gonna do the right thing? [Nathan]: I don't know if we answered any questions actually on this list of things. But I think it's important to talk about again from just an agent perspective because again as a new agent and maybe even within the first year or 2 you just don't know all the questions to ask. And it's…and a lot of it is ambiguous because you can't put value on certain things.  [Christian]: Yeah I think it's a good starting point. I mean I have had one agent who came in with questions and I loved it. You know it would be like “Hey these are some questions I have” and I think they kind of got them offline or you know another brokerage they were interviewing or something. And I am basically like “That question doesn't matter because of this. This question is irrelevant because of that. That's a good question. Let's talk about it.”  You know. So it could be a good place to start but like you said as a new agent you're not really sure what you need to be asking. What questions mater or not. [Chris]: Yeah so I mean we…I think the last time we talked about you know choosing a brokerage and how the brokerage works. That was like early early last year, right around when we just launched. [Nathan]: First 5 episodes maybe. [Chris]: Yeah yeah something like that but I think regardless of where you are in your career if you are new or if you are a seasoned veteran I think the message is you need to understand if there is…if your office is toxic, if your office is not fun to work in, if your leadership is undermining management, if your…if you're not receiving the right support the message is there are brokers out there where that does not exist.  There are brokerages that do have proper support, that do have a good culture and that are fun to work at. And I think that a lot of the brokers who have quotas that they need to meet on the recruiting side I think that those…their attention is in the wrong place and that the broker owner does not have enough time to dedicate to the support of the office.  So that's my message. If you're in a position where you're not sure what's gonna happen with your career, if you're not happy with the people that you're working with my message is just go out and try and meet a few brokers because there are places that do exist where that's not a problem. [Christian]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean I agree. That sums it up about as good as you can get. If you got questions you know what you can do? Email us. We'll answer them [laughter]. [Christian]: I am interested and see what questions…you know…Yeah comments, you know. Leave comments. What are the questions? You know what are the questions that agents should be asking or brokerages should be asking to their agents to make sure it's a good fit?  [Chris]: And email us and tell us what you think about your brokerage. Why is your brokerage a great place to work? I think that… [Christian]: Yeah that's good. [Chris]: What do you like most about your brokerage? We don't want to hear the bad things. We hear the bad things all the time. Let us know what you think is the best part about your brokerage? I think that just about sums it up for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thank you so much for tuning in for this impromptu topic brought you by Nate. Thank you Nate. We'll catch you next week.  [music] [Chris]:  Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Nathan Hirsch is a serial entrepreneur, expert in remote hiring and eCommerce guru. Selling online since 2010, Nate has sold well over $25 million worth of product through his eCommerce business. He is now the co-founder and CEO of FreeeUp.com, the hands-on hiring marketplace connecting hundreds of online business owners with pre-vetted remote workers.   After building a team of over 30 remote workers, Nathan found he needed a system to make remote-worker hiring better and scalable. His business specializes in assisting eCommerce and digital marketing businesses remove the hassle of having to recruit and interview before making a reliable hire. Less time recruiting & interviewing means more time making money. Nathan understands the frustration: he and his business partner faced the same struggles with hiring online and wanted to redefine the way it was done.   Nathan got a taste of the transition path that most people take (get good grades, go to university and get a nice paying job, etc.). During the summers as a high school kid, Nathan realized working for other people just didn’t motivate him so he learned at a very young age that if he wanted to be happy he had to work for himself.   He got a glimpse into the future and realized something had to change if he didn’t figure out an alternative path. Nathan majored in Business and started buying and selling textbooks to make extra money on the side.   After successfully selling books from his college campus, Nathan discovered Amazon and become addicted to learning more about this website. Nathan built up this large drop shipping business and multi-million business from his college dorm room and he knew he had to hire people to keep up with the demand.   Nathan learned that hiring is hard to find the right people that actually care about your business. From hiring that’s how he found out about the remote hiring world and wanted a faster way of doing it.   On today’s episode, we talk to Nathan about his journey from being a broke college kid to starting two successful companies. You’ll learn why you shouldn’t wait until you're burnt out to start hiring and the pros and cons of hiring employees to your team vs. freelancers.   Nathan shares his advice on what you should outsource first in your business to take your growth to the next level. We also discuss the importance of focusing not only on skill but also attitude and communication when growing your team. Lastly, Nate explains how freedom is the the most valuable benefit of being his own boss and steps you can take today to build your empire.   Key Points From This Episode: How to find pre-vetted freelancers and why it is important to start hiring out for certain tasks The story of what Nathan was doing back in college and what his mindset like and how he began to formulate his entrepreneurial path How Nathan went from being a broke college kid to starting two successful companies The only way to be truly successful in life is to be an entrepreneur (what impact it had on Nathan) What brought Nathan to the realization that he had to delegate tasks to start focus on revenue producing activities (how 1 conversation with his accountant changed his mindset about hiring) How to set a timeline when you should starting hiring people to help you run your business Why you should hire people slowly so that you can get some your time back (short term projects such us getting a website built, creating banner ads, etc.) Suggestions for entrepreneurs who have a successful business on how to free up their time and start hiring these tasks out (what techniques you can use to start freeing up your time if you have a business that has taken off overnight and you don’t know where you're going to find the time to starting hiring) Nathan shares how you can come up with a list of everything you do on a...

Welcome to the Bardic Knowledge Podcast. What's this all about? Who is Nathan? What can you expect from this podcast? Come find out!

Originally released July 5, 2016 we thought this was our funnies most off the wall episode at the time. So a year later, have we topped it or just gone downhill? You decide FunkNfans. Reach Us Here: Doug- @DJDoug Strickland- @NiceGuyonBiz Nathan- @NathanHChan On Facebook: The Nice Guys Community page   Intro Patreon, oops we did it again   Just shy of an hours worth of Email tips, Secret Service flags, rants on federal employees, trusting the president, bison, tunas, Trump, Doug tours 3 National Parks and Strickland wants to turn them all into sawmills (not really) Hear all about it on The Nice Guys today. Why the subject line and body of an Email affect your chance of it being read, Doug tours 3 National Parks and Strickland wants to turn them all into sawmills (not really) Hear all about it on The Nice Guys today. Canada lets Doug in, but getting back into the U.S. was not so easy.   Which weighs more- a ton of bricks, a ton of feathers, or a ton of E-mails?   E-Mail Etiquette:   Reply quickly and clearly.   Keep Emails to 2-3 sentences.   Keep subject lines to 3 words.   If you ramble on (like Doug and I tend to do) your E-Mail will not get read.   Add video and links to keep Emails shorter   So….Back to the National Parks, and you have to get 44:30 into the podcast before we really go off the rails.   Strick would rather be in Vegas (or just about anywhere else) on vacation.   Doug digs on federal employees and Strickland triggers the CIA to download the show.   We want to hear from any Trump supporters to hear why you support him.   Shout out to http://www.centauruscomputers.com/ for a great Email and great customer service.   Strick wants to get rid of the National Parks and hates animals (not really).   Denis Leary- Animal Auditions   The U.S. Postal Service's 83 acre Bolger Center   No time to get to this, but you can read the blog here: 12 worries that every entrepreneur has Nice Guys Links Support the podcast at www.Patreon.com/NiceGuys Subscribe to the Podcast   Niceguysonbusiness.com   TurnkeyPodcast.com - You're the expert. Let us help prove it. Podcast Production, Concept to Launch   Book Doug and/or Strick as a speaker at your upcoming event. Amazon #1 Best selling book Nice Guys Finish First. Doug's Business Building Bootcamp (10 Module Course)   Partner Links: Amazon.com: Click before buying anything. Help support the podcast. Interview Valet:  Get interviewed on top podcasts and share your message. Acuity Scheduling: Stop wasting time going back and forth scheduling appointments Dalyn Miller PR -- Guest Placement and Promotion www.ThePodcastTeam.com Social Quant - Boost your Twitter following the right way. Targeted reach   Promise Statement: To provide an experience that is entertaining and adds value to your life.   Don't underestimate the Power of Nice.       If we need to reach you by phone, please provide your number. +61403768163 What do your friends call you? Nathan What is your company name? Foundr Magazine Please tell us how you found us, so we can thank them. Mar Please provide your snail mail address. We promise not to send you a bill, you get enough of them. 231 Chapel St Prahran, VIC 3181 Australia Please give us the website you want to share with our listeners? foundr.com Twitter Handle? @foundr We need your SKYPE username too. nathan.chan7 You are an expert in what industry? Digital Media What do you think our audience of entrepreneurs would want to hear from you? Social media strategies Online growth strategies Creating a magazine from scratch Do you have anything to promote? If so, list it in this area. Books, courses, seminars and anything else you would like to tell our listeners. foundrmag.com/book foundrmag.com/magazine We love adding action items for our listeners to follow. In bullet form, list tools (technology), tips and tricks that have helped you in life. - always have a sense of urgency - Trello - google calendar - learning from smart people that have done what I want to do You be the podcast host for a sec. If you had a podcast, what would you call it? Becoming a foundr with Nathan Chan If you had to pick a song title that represented your life, what would it be? living the dream   Promise statement - To provide an experience that is entertaining and adds value to your life. Tools (technology) Tips (action item) Tricks (life hack)   Be relatable, what do you suck at? Be transparent, how did you pay your bills when you first got going? Be confident, what do you do as an entrepreneur as good as it gets? Be humble, what experts did you need to call upon to make shit happen? As a business owner and entrepreneur, put these into priority order and why: Employees, Customers, Products, Systems If you had to pick a song title that represented your life, what would it be? Don't underestimate the Power of Nice. Invitation Dress Code Cell phone pic and text

What is the story of David and Nathan? What should we learn from the biblical account of David and Nathan?

Employers hire candidates that they know and those who are recommended to them by people that they trust. That's why networking is so important: it gets you face-time with fellow professionals and kickstarts relationships that get you known in the community. When you're looking for a job, one of the best things you can do is conduct informational interviews with professionals in your desired field. But how do you find the right people with whom to meet? And what are the takeaways you can expect from these meetings In this episode of Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Nathan Perez, an executive recruiter and writer who has mastered the art of networking. According to Huffington Post, Nathan is one of the most connected people on LinkedIn, with 30,000 professional contacts. He is also the author of The 20-Minute Networking Meeting, a primer on how to conduct successful informational interviews.    In this 36-minute episode you will learn: How to structure a short but effective networking meeting How to make a good impression in an informational interview How to build and leverage your network The one thing you should never do in a networking meeting This week's guest: Nathan Perez (@NathanAPerez) Principal, 20 Minute Communications Author of The 20 Minute Networking Meeting Minneapolis, Minn.   Listener question of the week: What do I do when a professional connection "ghosts" (disappears) on me? Do you have a question you'd like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac's List Community Manager at cecilia@macslist.org. Resources referenced on this week's show: The 20-Minute Networking Meeting (Executive Edition) The 20-Minute Networking Meeting (Graduate Edition) Young Nonprofit Professionals Network Network After Work Ignite Conferences Eventbrite Meetup.com Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you'd like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac's List Managing Director, at ben@macslist.org. Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support! Learn more about Mac's List at www.macslist.org. Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.    Full Transcript: Mac Prichard: This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want and make a difference in life. I’m Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac’s List. Our show is brought to you by Mac’s List, you best online source for rewarding, creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You’ll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice and our new book, “Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond.” Welcome to our podcast, Find Your Dream Job. Every week, we bring you the career tools and tips you need to get the job you want.Joining me are Ben Forstag, managing director of Mac’s List and Cecilia Bianco, community manager of Mac’s List. Ben, Cecilia, how are you? Cecilia Bianco: Good, Mac. How are you? Mac Prichard: Doing great; Ben? Ben Forstag: I’m having a great week. Mac Prichard: Good. Every week we bring Ben and Cecilia to you, our audience, so that they can share with you resources and answer your questions. Let’s start with Ben. He spends his week among other things, looking in the nooks and crannies of the internet for blogs, podcasts and other tools you can use in your job search. Ben, what do you have for us this week? Ben Forstag: Mac, this week I bring you more than one resource. Mac Prichard: You’re rocking my world here. Ben Forstag: I know. I’m going to start collecting overtime soon. I’m bringing you 5 resources and these are my own top 5, can’t miss professional networking opportunities. We sell an e-book on the Mac’s List website. That e-book contains a list of 100 networking opportunities. I’m not going to do all 100. That would take forever and it would cost you a whole lot of money in overtime, Mac. These are my own personal top 5. These are opportunities to get face-to-face with people in your community and folks who work in the sectors where you want to work. They are opportunities to expand your network within your field of interest and build relationships that can help you land a future job and/or advance your career. As you know, the one tip we give all job seekers in one word is? Cecilia Bianco: Networking. Ben Forstag: That’s right, Cecilia. We’ll start with #5. Number 5 is the young nonprofit professional’s network, YNPN. This is an organization I’m sure you guys have heard of. They’re very active here in Portland. They have a great event every month. I’ve been to some of their events on the east side, but as you say, they’re a national organization. They are dedicated to training emerging leaders to become active social change-makers. They have 42 chapters in cities around the country so if you’re not here in Portland, I’m sure there’s a YNPN chapter somewhere near you. They have regular networking educational events. It’s a great group of folks and you don’t necessarily need to be in a nonprofit to be a part of this organization. The other key thing with this is membership in YNPN is actually free. You have to pay for some events, but you can be a member and get a lot of their resources for free. You can learn more at YNPN.org. Mac Prichard: Coincidentally, Ben, I was on vacation last week visiting family in Iowa and of course, I met somebody for lunch on my vacation. We were standing in line in a coffee shop and he introduced me to the president of the YNPN chapter in Rock Island, Illinois. Ben Forstag: That is synergy right there, Mac! Number 4 is Network After Work. Have you guys heard of this one? Cecilia Bianco: I have heard of this one. I haven’t attended, though. Mac Prichard: This is a new one to me. Ben Forstag: Okay, so Network After Work is actually a nationwide organization and they host networking events for professionals to attend. They have 50 chapters in cities all around the country. They said last year that they had 1 million people participate in their events. These are typically informal networking mixers held in a local restaurant, a bar or other social venue. They tend to be pretty trendy places where they host these events. They’re paid events, but they’re generally less than 20 dollars. A great way just to meet folks in your community, meet folks, other working professionals and so forth. You can learn more about them at networkafterwork.com. Number 3... this is one of my personal favorites: Ignite conferences. Cecilia, you ever heard of Ignite? Cecilia Bianco: I haven’t, no. Mac Prichard: I’m actually familiar, Ben, with the Ignite presentation. I’ve been to conferences where, I think the custom is you have 5 minutes and 20 seconds a slide and if you get out of sequence with your slide, you have to catch up frantically. Ben Forstag: Yeah. These are essentially TED type of presentations. They tend to be a little bit more accessible, though, and much more affordable. They’re usually only 2-hour long events. The general deal with them is that presenters share their personal passions using 20 slides at auto advance every 15 seconds, for a total of just 5 minutes. I’ve gone to several of these events, both in D.C. and in Portland and they are fantastic. You hear all kinds of cool things. It’ll be a presentation about healthcare right next to a presentation about beekeeping. The important thing is you meet really interesting people there and make great professional connections that you can leverage later on. They have events all around the country and indeed, all around the world. Here in Portland, they’re on the 13th iteration of this. You can find local events at igniteshow.com. Number 2 is EventBrite. EventBrite is not an organizer of events per se, but it’s a technology platform that a lot of organizations use to manage their events. In fact, Mac’s List uses EventBrite to manage our own events. The nice thing with EventBrite is if you go there, you can actually search all the events that people have put on using that technology according to location, subject matter, number of people participating, all this stuff and you can find out a lot of events that you might not have ever heard of anywhere else. I definitely suggest people check that out. That’s at eventbrite.com. Mac Prichard: One of the things I like about EventBrite is once you register, you sign up to attend an event, there’s a record of all the events you’ve attended in the past so if you’re trying to get in touch with an organization or look for contact information or recall an event where you might have met someone, it’s there in your EventBrite account. Ben Forstag: Yeah, that’s definitely nice. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. It’s also a really great tool if you’re going to host an event. It’s one of the best tools out there. We always use it and it’s super helpful. It lets you share the guest list with people and it’s a great tool. Mac Prichard: For a time, we used eVite and then we moved to EventBrite. Why did you make that choice? Cecilia Bianco: I think just because EventBrite has so many more options. It’s more searchable and more people are able to find our event and it’s easier to manage the guest list. It’s just a better tool. Mac Prichard: Good tips. Ben Forstag: Great, so it works both for folks who are organizing events and people who are looking to network through events. My #1 networking tool, this is my personal favorite. It’s an oldie, but goodie. It’s Meetup.com. I know everyone here has heard of Meetup.com. Mac Prichard: Yeah. I’m ancient enough that as you both know, I worked for elected officials on political campaigns and I remember when Meetup.com was defined by the Howard Dean campaign in 2003. That’s how they first came to prominence. Howard Dean has certainly faded from the political scene, but Meetup.com not only endures, but it’s gotten bigger and much, much better. Ben Forstag: Yeah and in fact, Meetup has become a noun in and of itself. "We’re going to a meetup." The site has been around for a long time and it provides hyper-targeted local groups based around personal or professional interests. Literally, whatever your interest is, I’m sure there’s other folks in your neighborhood and your community who want to meet up and talk about that. I did a quick search of the Portland groups. There’s plenty of professional groups that meet through Meetup. If you’re a techie, there’s just about any kind of programming language, there’s a Meetup group. If you’re a vampire, there’s a Meetup group for you here in Portland and you can find other vampires. Participation varies city-by-city, I understand. In Portland, it is a very active network; other cities, not so much. You can learn more about Meetups at Meetup.com. Mac Prichard: I know many of our listeners are in the nonprofit world or want to work with nonprofits and one of the Meetup groups that you can find nationally, including here in Portland, is Tech 4 Good. I’m familiar with the Portland event. It is organized by the staff of the National Technology Education Network, NTEN, which is a terrific national group. It is a wonderful place for meeting people who are interested in technology, social change and nonprofits. Ben Forstag: The nice thing about that group is you don’t need to be a techie to get it. A lot of what they do is educating lay people like me and you in how to use this technology for good. Mac Prichard: Well, thank you, Ben. That was a wonderful list. Do you have a suggestion for Ben? You can write him. His email address is Ben at macslist.org. We encourage you to reach out to Ben and he may share your idea on a future show. Let’s move on. It’s time to hear from you, our listeners. Every week, Cecilia goes through her mail bag or her inbox these days and pulls out a question from our listeners. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week? Cecilia Bianco: This week, a reader wrote in and asked what should I do when someone promises to help me at a networking event and then ghosts me? I have to admit, I had to Google what ghosting was. I wasn’t quite clear. Have you guys heard this term before? Ben Forstag: I have. Mac Prichard: I have, as well. I first became aware of it; I saw it in the New York Times earlier this year. It had a celebrity angle. Apparently, when Charlize Theron broke up with Sean Penn, she according to the Times ghosted him, which meant cutting him off on all of her social media channels and not responding to his texts and phone calls. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, it makes sense. Ben Forstag: Mac, I’m glad to hear that you stay up-to-date on the celebrity news! Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, so ghosting is exactly what it sounds like. It’s when you poof, disappear and you promise something and then you don’t follow through. Maybe you’re ignoring the person. In this case, a job seeker went to an event and was promised help in her job search and then never heard back from the person. I know this has happened to me before and I’ve also been guilty of the other end which I feel bad about, so I know that it’s important to follow up at least twice when this happens to you. I had a student reach out to me through email asking for help. Obviously, I wanted to help her, but we’re busy as professionals. I’ll flag the email and then think I’ll get to it later and forget, so sending a follow-up email is definitely appropriate and sending at least 2 is great. What do you think, Mac? Mac Prichard: I think that’s absolutely right. I think sometimes and I’ve been in this position, too, where I’ve reached out to someone, I haven’t heard and I interpret their silence as rejection. What I’ve learned is by making a 2nd or even a 3rd attempt, I usually get a response, almost always, actually. I know as a job seeker, it’s hard to make that 2nd attempt or even the 3rd, but I think people will be pleasantly surprised by the result. It’s as you say, people get busy and I certainly have been guilty of it, too. I try very hard to get back to everyone in as timely a manner as I can, but sometimes, things fall through the cracks. A reminder is always welcome. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah, definitely, and I always suggest waiting 4-5 days before sending a 2nd follow-up just so you can give them a chance. If they have it saved in their inbox, they might respond, they’re just busy, so waiting a few days, see if they follow up and then follow up again. I think probably after 3, it’s time to let it go. What do you guys think? Ben Forstag: I think that’s probably good advice. Mac Prichard: Yeah. One thing I do on my 3rd message, I just do a very brief and I’ll just say, “I don’t want to be a pest, I’ll just wait to hear from you.” I almost always hear back. Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I have responded to this reader and she followed up with me and asked if it matters how she follow up with a person. If they’ve only communicate through email, is it a bad idea to follow up with a phone call? I thought it was a great question because you can definitely get someone’s attention quicker with a phone call, but I was more inclined to tell her it’s a bad idea just because you might not want to put them on the spot by calling when you communicate usually through email. I think it’s better to stick with the mode of communication you’ve used with this person in the past, but what do you think? I know a phone call obviously gets their attention quicker. Ben Forstag: I think you’re right. I think a phone call is more likely to upset someone or put someone on the spot and a job seeker really has very little to gain from upsetting a professional reference or a contact. If they don’t want to speak to you for whatever reason, that’s unfortunate, but you should move on and if you’ve emailed them 3 times, I think that’s sufficient effort to reach out to them. Cecilia Bianco: I agree. Overall, follow up 3 times and no more than that, then let it go, but don’t take it personally because you never know why someone is not responding. Don’t feel bad about yourself and go out and meet new people and get help in another way. Mac Prichard: That’s great advice. Thank you, Cecilia, and thank you for that question. If you have a question for Cecilia, you can email her. Her email address is Cecilia@macslist.org. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac’s List Guides, publisher of our new book, “Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond.” The Mac’s List Guides give you the tools you need to get the job you want. We show you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field and how you can manage your career. In each of the book’s 8 chapters, experts share job hunting secrets like how to hear about positions that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. You can download the 1st chapter of the book for free, just visit macslist.org/macslistguides. Now it’s time to talk to our expert. Let’s turn to our guest this week. It’s Nathan Perez who is the co-author of the acclaimed job searching networking books, “The 20-minute Networking Meeting,” Executive and Graduate Editions. Nathan is an executive recruitment professional and he’s responsible for finding qualified candidates for search engagements and he also speaks and holds workshops nationally on the topics of job search, networking and relationship building for business. Nathan, thank you for joining us. Nathan Perez: Thank you, too. Mac Prichard: Okay. In preparing for our conversation today, I did my homework and I have to say I’m in awe because in looking at your LinkedIn profile, I see that you are one of the 10 most-connected people on the planet on LinkedIn. How did you make that happen? Nathan Perez: Part of the nature of my work is to make sure that I have an expanded network. My role in executive search is actually the 1st step of an executive search process. When companies come to us to hire, they hire us to find new executive leadership for their company. My job responsibility is to devise a strategy as to where and how to find qualified candidates. LinkedIn is one of my tools, one of my primary tools and it’s in my best interest to have a wide network because LinkedIn works on the premise of 3 degrees of separation. That means the more people that I know, the further reach I have globally. It was a matter of reaching out. Once I started reaching out, networks started to expand. People began to find me through the same network. The people that I was connecting to, right, that 1st degree, eventually got to 2nd degree and that’s your extended network. That extended network started to come to me, as well and then the numbers started to double. Mac Prichard: Let’s talk about networking. It’s a word that people who are looking for work always hear, “You’ve got to network, you’ve got to network” and one of the pieces of advice that we give job seekers and I know you do, as well, is reach out to others for networking or informational interviews. Nathan Perez: Right. Mac Prichard: Let’s just drill down on the basics here. What is a networking meeting or an informational interview, Nathan? Nathan Perez: A networking meeting or even an informational interview, sometimes there’s a fine line, but there’s a distinct difference. A networking meeting is all about sitting down with an individual to obtain information. I think lots of times, just the word networking itself brings with it a negative connotation and people liken it to name dropping or that glad-handing, greasy activity, this thing that no one really wants to do so they avoid it. Really, what it is, is just the exchange of information. Mac Prichard: One of the most provocative things that you say, I think, is that you can have a 20-minute meeting with someone and walk away with information and contacts and tips that will help people with their job search. Tell us, how do you do that? Let’s back up. How do you arrange a meeting like that, what do you ask for and what do you do when you walk in the door? Nathan Perez: Often times, as far as networking requests go, time is the deciding factor as to whether or not someone is going to accept the networking request. Even if let’s say, up front you were hoping to request a networking meeting via email, even by phone, because time is the deciding factor, making it brief and succinct is what’s key. As far as the information contained within 20 minutes, what you’re really doing is truncating a process that already exists. For example, if you and I were to sit down for a few minutes and I were just to ask you this one question, “Do you think I should go find another job?” There’s going to be a whole host of questions that come back to me. What do you mean, Nathan? Do you mean should you go find one now, should you go find one later, in your same line of work, a whole different industry change, whatever it may be. What you’re doing is you’re taking all of that information and you’re packaging it into something that’s much smaller and you’re presenting it up front. You’re, therefore, giving that person, your networking contact, context as to what your background is, where you are right at this moment and then you ask a set of questions that are thought provoking. This is homework that you do, these questions that you ultimately ask your contact to further your knowledge. You’re tapping into their expertise and their knowledge to further your own to inform your own job search. Mac Prichard: Like you, I get a lot of requests for people who want networking meetings and I’m always impressed by the people who can come in and do 3 things in 20-30 minutes. For me, a successful meeting is one where someone introduces themselves and shares their story. That’s the first thing they get done. The second is to your point, they ask questions, not big broad questions, but strategic ones about their career goals or their opportunities in the industry and the third thing I see people do really well is ask for contacts. Nathan Perez: I had mentioned that time is a deciding factor. What one should avoid is misusing that time. Mind you, it’s misusing that other person’s time and your own, as well. Going in unprepared, not knowing who your networking contact is, in fact not knowing who their company, what their company does and what their company mission may be because knowing something about that person’s company should tell you quite a bit about that person, as well. Going in unprepared and going in without an agenda or structured use of time is probably the biggest mistake you can make. That’s often times and for anybody who’s listening and Mac, I’m sure you would agree with this; often times, when we accept a networking meeting and it goes longer than we anticipated or than we thought or longer than that person promised, it makes us a little more wary to do it again. If you think about time, if I were to maybe put into perspective of what time looks like, just 1 hour which a lot of folks believe should be the length of a networking meeting; 1 hour adds up very quickly. For instance, if you have small children or if you have younger siblings, you know that there’s not enough hours in a day to take care of small kids. If you were to think of it from a monetary standpoint; if you’re a consultant who charges 150 dollars an hour, for instance, and someone is asking you for a networking meeting and you say yes to that request, that’s a 150-dollar gift of time. If you think about what that looks like over 1 week, 2 weeks, over the course of a month, how many times do you give away a 150-dollar gift? I would say the biggest of them all is probably the misuse of time. Mac Prichard: Yeah, that’s a good point. I also want to second a point you made a moment ago about having a clear ask for the meeting. I, as you know, have worked in government and public policy and politics, and have done a lot of government relations work. There is an old lobbyist I knew in D.C. who said the definition of a failed meeting was one where there was no clear ask and then when people got up at the end of the appointment, there was no homework for the other party. I think again to your point, having that ask and being clear about what you want to get from the meeting is crucial. Nathan Perez: I would agree. Mac Prichard: When you see people who are just superstars at networking and informational interviews, what do they do that makes them stand out, Nathan? What kind of examples come to mind? I know you’ve talked to hundreds, I’m sure thousands of people over the years. Nathan Perez: Right. There’s a handful of things. I think one of the primaries is listening, really engaged in the conversation. Staying present is really key because we all know, we can sense and we can also see when someone is not engaged in the conversation. Listening is one of them. Also, staying engaged and staying present also allows you to keep track of time. We all know innately how much time has passed to some extent or another. Sure, maybe it’s within a few minutes, but we get that, combined with knowing what we want to go in and talk about and being able to present that in a way that’s very clear, concise and simple. The longer time that we take with a networking contact and the more information that we drop on that contact, the more difficult it is for that person to keep track of everything and to keep you in context. By being succinct and brief, we manage to put our own experiences or whatever it is that we want to talk about, that clear ask, into context and into perspective in just a small time frame. That allows for a really powerful and informing conversation. Mac Prichard: So have a clear ask, be succinct, do your homework, look at the web site, other resources before you walk in the door. What are some other tips you have for people that you’ve seen other job seekers and career professionals use to stand out? Nathan Perez: The people that have had the most successful networking meetings with me in particular are those who are informed, not of just my background, but their own. When they ask the questions, they’re asking at a deeper level than something that’s more obvious. For instance, I’m going to take the legal profession as an example. Right now, the landscape of the hiring side of the legal profession and the legal profession itself is changing. Smaller companies are being taken by bigger ones and what that means is that the people who are in the smaller ones either get pushed out or they get enveloped into this big thing, this sort of monstrous machine. If you are an aspiring legal aid or attorney and you were to learn about how this information is working, you can come into a networking meeting and ask very informed questions that gives you a further insight into the hiring practice or the industry itself. That in turn could do a handful of things, one of which is completely change the course of your job search or whatever your networking efforts may be. You may learn something that makes you think twice about what you’re doing, whether it’s for the better or whether it’s just a change in tracks. All that information is good. It’s people who come in really informed with the topic that they’re going to talk about. Mac Prichard: Often when I talk to people about their goals, sometimes people say to me, well, I don’t want to close out my options. I want to be open to everything. I think as we both know, the challenge there is that if you’re open to everything, it’s hard to pursue something and there are just too many doors that are open. As we talk, I know our listeners are thinking about the challenges of and doing networking meetings like this. Let me rattle off a couple that I often hear and I expect you do and get your advice about how to overcome them. What do you say, Nathan, to people who say gosh, I just don’t have any contacts? Nathan Perez: That’s something that I hear all the time. The fact of the matter is, is that we know a lot more people than what we think we do. We just perceive them as they belong in a different bucket. These are my friends, these are my family and these are my neighbors over here. If you take away those titles, they are people that you know. A personal and professional network is comprised of people that we know. If you ever meet someone through one of the people that you know, that person becomes an extended part of your network. I often say when I give presentations and sometimes I get pushback here, I say that it’s not just the people that you know or even the people that you meet through them. Every single person that you have ever met and I’ll explain this in a second; every single person that you have ever met is actually an extended part of your network. That might be dormant, but the moment that you reach out to someone who you’ve only met once and you ask them for help, you bring to life an extended part of your network, but again, not just that person, but any person that you might meet through them. If I were to put this in a really clear perspective, it’s imagine that you don’t know a single soul on Earth but that one person, but imagine that person knows 50 people. Immediately, you have multiplied your network by 51 people. If each one of those people know 50 people, you can see how quickly your network actually adds up to people that you do know and you can also see how quickly you can obtain any kind of information to achieve your networking goals that you can really imagine. Mac Prichard: What is the one thing that you should never do in a networking meeting, Nathan? Nathan Perez: You should never take, take, take. Networking is all about reciprocity. It’s back and forth. It is really not unlike, let’s say when you do a Google search and you send out the query, it sends it down the network. The answer comes back from the servers along the network and there you have it. There’s always give and take. Impressions are everything out there. Perceptions, if perception really matters, they’re real and what you want is to make sure you are giving the sense that you are someone who cares and who is willing to help in return. As I mentioned earlier, time is a gift and when we take it without giving back, that’s not something that’s really forgotten in the long run. Mac Prichard: Finally, what should you do after a networking meeting? What action should they take? Nathan Perez: Keep your network alive by following up. You always want to thank someone for their time. Even though you may have thanked them up front during the email when they accepted the request and even though you had the presence of mind to say thank you again when you were in person when you sat down with them, but after the meeting you want to follow up with them, thanking them again. More importantly, well just as importantly is what I should say, you should follow up with the person who introduced you to that person if in fact, you were introduced to that person through someone else. Mac Prichard: You have a new book coming out. Tell us about it. Nathan Perez: It’s going to be the professional edition. There’s the executive edition of the 20-Minute Networking Meeting and then earlier this year there was the publication of the graduate edition. Anybody who has returned to school or who is coming out of school and knows that they need to network for a job, that’s that book. This one is going to be the professional edition that is every one in between; if you’re not an executive, if you’re not a graduate, it is everyone in between. Over the years, I’ve had quite a few different jobs. That’s everything from a lifeguard to a professional, I have 20 years as a professional actor and writer and I worked on Wall Street at one point. This is going to address all of those people who are not in one of those other 2 categories. Mac Prichard: Nathan, where can people find you online and learn more about you, the books and the services you offer? Nathan Perez: At 20-minute Communications, which can be found at www.20mnm.com. Mac Prichard: Great. Thank you so much for joining us. It’s been a pleasure having you on the show. Nathan Perez: Thank you, too. Mac Prichard: We’re back with Ben and Cecilia. What did you two think of what Nathan had to share with us today? Cecilia Bianco: I thought he had some great tips and I think his most important tip was to be clear and succinct. I know I get some emails that are super long with detailed backgrounds of people just sharing what they’ve been doing and what they want from me. I’d rather just get a 20-minute hey I want to talk about this, can you meet for coffee sometime next week? I think his tips on that were really great. Mac Prichard: I’m a big fan of brevity and I always like the emails that say I’d like 20-30 minutes of your time to talk about A, B and C. I especially like the emails, I know I have to admit I’m a bit detailed about this, that say I could meet with you on these times on these dates, but let me know what might work for you. How about you, Ben? What did you think? Ben Forstag: I thought the most important thing he said was about the size of your network and that your network is bigger than “your professional network.” This really resonates with me because when I think about the network that I’ve leveraged the most in my job search and in my professional life, it’s actually not my professional contacts, it’s the contacts I made when I was working at a summer camp. Those people who I had a real close relationship with, they’re all around the country, all around the world now and they’re all involved in a variety of industries. I’ve been able to use those relationships in a bunch of different positive ways, both professionally and personally. Mac Prichard: I’d agree with that, as well. I recently was trying to identify how I might get in to see someone at a national nonprofit communications director and I discovered that one of my neighbors that actually worked at that organization and not only knew this communications director, but she had gone to high school with this person in Maryland. It was a completely unexpected connection because my neighbor and I knew each other through walking dogs and seeing each other at the block party, but we also had this other connection that didn’t come from LinkedIn or an informational interview. Ben Forstag: I think this brings up an interesting point which is when we start thinking about networks being this everyone you know component, it can sometimes feel daunting; you’re always on the clock or you’re always doing a job search. I think if you’re a novice at networking, it certainly would feel like that. I think the key is you have to make this informal networking and communication and relationship building something that’s just part of your life and something that you’re comfortable with so that it doesn’t feel like a job in and of itself; it’s just something that you do. Mac Prichard: Cecilia, I know you’ve learned a lot about networking in the 2 years you’ve been with Mac’s List. Do you have 1 or 2 pieces of advice for listeners who are just getting started? Cecilia Bianco: Yeah. I think what Ben just brought up is important because I know just right graduating out of college, it’s hard to feel like you need to build your professional network and you don’t really know where to start. It’s important to start with friends, family and rely on your university’s network. That’s one of the best tools you can use when you first graduate and after for seasoned professionals when you look back. Those alumni LinkedIn groups are great and really, they never die. I’m still looking at mine all the time and it’s really active. Looking to friends and family is a really easy way to start so I suggest to anyone who is new to networking, start there because you’ll be more comfortable and it makes it all a lot easier. Mac Prichard: Great advice. Thank you, Cecilia. Thank you, Ben. Thank you, our listeners, for joining us. We’ll be back next week with more tools and tips to help you find that dream job. In the meantime, find us at macslist.org and you can sign up for our free newsletter there with more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, you can help us by leaving a review, a comment and a rating at iTunes. Thanks.

(Nathan) What if everything you ever knew about history and classical literature was fundamentally wrong? What if there were a massive conspiracy, set in motion by medieval monks, to create entire bodies of literature and claim they were much older, or to invent centuries of history? In this episode, we trace the pseudo-history of the great "monastic conspiracy" from its origins in the writings of a French Jesuit in the 17th century to the bizarre New Chronology of a Russian mathematician in the 20th.

(Christine and Nathan) What on earth is a city of smugglers? Why did Napoleon like to tease his Second Consul so much? And what would you have seen if you attended Napoleon’s coronation? This week we move beyond Napoleon the man to the experiences of his subjects answering these questions and more!

(Nathan) What do medieval frat boys, Nicholas Cage, and Iron Maiden have in common? They're all part of one of the most popular (and far-fetched) medieval conspiracy theories. Tune in as we talk about Cathars, Templars, and the siege of Montségur.