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Keep Smiling: The E-Commerce Customer Experience Podcast
Ep. 034 - Bookkeeping for E-commerce with Nathan Hirsch of EcomBalance

Keep Smiling: The E-Commerce Customer Experience Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 23, 2022 30:37


In my conversation with Nathan, we discuss what he's up to now, three years after the FreeUp acquisition. He describes how he started EcomBalance and Outsource School during the pandemic, the nuances of bookkeeping and accounting for e-commerce businesses, and life as a new foster parent! Nathan has a ton of energy and a passion for customer service, instilled during his time working at Firestone. He carries that with him today in the way he graciously caters to the clients, customers, and freelancers of his various companies. Enjoy my conversation with Nathan Hirsch! Full video and show notes >>> https://www.sellersmile.com/034

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #77: The LOBO (Light Out Barks Out) Initiative/Kink Community, Living With Mitochondrial Disease, Chosen Family & Kick Ass Grandmas, With Jake Didinsky, Host Of The LOBO Podcast, Music Producer & Touring DJ

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 10, 2022 70:34


INTRODUCTION: Let's start withthe basics I am 29 and identify as non-binary, pansexual and demisexual. I amon the spectrum and neurodivergent. I also have mitochondrial disease, ADHD,associated mood disorder, anxiety, depression and more. I am however an openbook on everything.  I am deeply engrained in the kink community and alsothe furry community. So I was born and diagnosed with mitochondrialdisease when I was young. Over the course of my life my single mother did herbest but like most parents of those with chronic illnesses she protected me wayto much. When my brothers were born they also were diagnosed with mitochondrialdisease I often joke that my mother hit the lottery 3 boys with mito with notrace of it anywhere else in our family.Having mitochondrial disease has posed manychallenges in my life from school where I had an IEP all the way intoadulthood. I have always known I was different from everyone else and growingup with that knowledge has made life hard for sure. I also decided however whenI was 24 that I was going to stop feeling sorry for myself and not let mycondition define me. It was at this point that I launched Lights Out, BarksOut! Or LOBO! for short. LOBO is a night club event that focuses on beingsex positive, kink positive, body positive, gender inclusive, and creating asafe space for all. When we started we were mostly a party in dc for pups andfurries but we have grown now to be in 8 cities and to include a wide anddiverse group of patrons. LOBO has changed my life and the lives of many otherswho have found their community and safe space through us. We actually as of afew days ago launched our non-profit wing called the LOBO Initiative whichfocuses on LGBTQ+ youth and adults and those with disabilities who need ahelping hand to achieve their dreams. In addition to LOBO I am a full time professionalDJ and producer and I get the opportunity to play all over the world at circuitparties. This however is at great expense to my overall health.  Havingthe Mito and being on the road 24/7 working late hours into the 3-5 am timeslot isn't good for someone with a mitochondrial cell deficiency. As I saidthough I made the decision that I wanted to live my life my way and if thatmeans taking a few years off so be it. IN SHORT:- Professional touring DJ and Music Producer aswell as event promoter (including events geared for kinksters, furries, andthose with sensory issues)  - Non-binary, Pansexual, Neruodivergant (High Functioning Autism), ADHD, Associated Mood Disorder, GAD-Reporter for Switch the Pitch Soccer Covering the USMNT-Founder and COO of The LOBO Initiative Non-ProfitINCLUDED IN THISEPISODE (But not limited to):·     An Explanation Of Mitochondrial Disease·      Jake'sTotally Kick Ass Grandma·      YAYCHOSEN FAMILY!!!·      Jake'sPath To Becoming A DJ·      ABreakdown Of LOBO (Lights Out Barks Out)·      HowJake Helps Other Rise In The Music Industry·      DifficultiesFor Creatives To Get Their Break·      NightClub Events For People With Sensory Concerns·      PupPlay & Furry Community ·      KetamineTestimonial  CONNECT WITH JAKE: Website: https://jakemaxwellproductions.comMixCloud: https://www.mixcloud.com/live/jakeMaxwell/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LightsOutBarksOutFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DjJakeMaxwellInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/lightsoutbarksoutdc/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/djjakemaxwell/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LightsOutDCTwitter: https://twitter.com/DJJakeMaxwell   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'SRECOMMENDATIONS: ·      PrayAway Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·     OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·     Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·     Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork:https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'SSERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      DisabledAmerican Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      AmericanLegion: https://www.legion.org ·      What TheWorld Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED INPODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·     PodMatch is awesome! This applicationstreamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you findshows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that iswhere you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people sothat you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00] You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where wediscuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs andJesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My nameis De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world aswe dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive tohelp you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talkabout. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: JakeDidinsky is the host of the Lobo, which stands for Lights Out Barks Outpodcast. He runs Lobo nightclub events all across the country, and most of all,he lives his life out and proud. Y'all listen and learn about Jake'scontributions to the kink community, and Jake is particularly interested in PupPlay the Fur Community, which is super cute, super awesome.Learn about Jake's path to becoming a [00:01:00]dj. The ways Jake helps others rise in the music industry and Jake's tips forthose living with mitochondrial disease, which is something that Jake has livedwith all his life. That disease cannot be overstated as many people living withit are not expected to live very long. ,but Jake has defied the odds. He is still alive And he is sohere to help everyone in any way that he can. Please listen and fall in love.with Jake, just as I have. Hello, you beautiful souls out there and welcomeback to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I hope you all are doing fan fucking taskas myself and my guest Jake Denki are doing. Jake, how are Jake: you? I'm good.I am just happy to have another day on this earth and, you know living thedream one day at a time De'Vannon: hall.Love you Tabernacle and praise. And so y'all is he Lobo which [00:02:00] stands for Lights Out, Bark Out, I believeLights Out Barks Out, I believe is what that stands for. He runs the Lobopodcast and as well, he is a dj, an event promoter and a music producer, and sohe. Living a high energy life, . And today on this we're gonna be talking abouthis medical history.He has something that's called mitochondrial disease, which I'dnever heard from before. He's gonna be telling us about his low boatinitiative, what his nonprofit does, and what it can do for you. So let's startwith your own history. Like what is it you would like to tell us Jake: about yourself?Yeah. So the first thing people will notice about me, I'm surethey're in this podcast and just listen to me, is I'm severely adhd. So if Ijump around a lot, I apologize. In addition to that, I'm also on the spectrumvery proudly actually. So those are two of like my badges of honor, adhd, verymuch so neuro [00:03:00] divergent.As you mentioned, I have the MET Disease that was diagnosedwhen I was I think four. Both me and my two brothers have it with no othertrace of it. And my family, I like to often joke that my mom had three boys andhit the lottery. All three boys have a condition that it's only passed throughthe mother that she doesn't have.So go figure. You know, that's always often the joke. I am adj, I'm a producer. I run light top, barks out the event all over the country.In addition to our logo initiative, nonprofit as well as I am a soccerjournalist have previously worked in politics. I've kind of been all over theplace you know, run an e-sports team.I, if it exists, I will do it. My whole thing is that basicallyI don't know how much time I have on this earth because people of my conditionsdon't typically live to be my age. And so I'm trying to take full advantage ofit and live as much of a life to the fullest as I. I De'Vannon: admire youand encourage [00:04:00] your, your strengththat you have there, that you keep going.So, so you're saying people with your disease don't usuallylive to your age. How old are you as of today? Jake: I am 29. I willturn 30 in in April. April 16th. Yes. I can do this. April 16th, I will turn30. I will be officially gay dead as the kids say. But I am very excited to bein my thirties and looking forward to that chapter.You De'Vannon: should belooking forward to it. Thirties are wonderful. That's when we really solidifywho we are. So how long do people typically live with this disease if, if 29 isso far out? Jake: So it's one ofthose things where it's, it's really like with the mitochondria disease, it'skind of hard to, to put a number on it, right?Because the way I explain it is mitochondria cells are ineverything in the body, right? So when your mitochondria don't work, That meansnothing in your body works the way it's supposed to. And when you have adeficiency where certain things in your body might work and other things maynot, it's very hard to follow a [00:05:00] pathof how that condition may go.So there's really not one person who has my condition, it hasthe exact same symptoms as anybody else. I often compare it to, if you take abag of a million jelly bean and try to pick out the same one twice, the odds ofdoing that are slim to none. So on the one hand you have people like me who areless affected but could go immediately plummeting like I was in the hospitalthree weeks ago out of the blue.Or you have people on the other end who are very, very, veryseverely affected who don't make it to V3 or four. And there's a whole bunch ofsub conditions. And as we learn more and more about it with geneticconditioning and genetic testing, like we are able to start to pinpoint itmore. But essentially it's one of those things where, It's really kind of acrapshoot because you just don't know.You just, it, it's, I was hospitalized with a minor virus thatspread, that nearly took me out and that was terrifying. And it's somethingthat, you know, it's one of those [00:06:00]things where you just kind of, you never really know with my condition, andthat is something that weighs on you a lot as a.Hmm. De'Vannon: Okay. Sotell us like, you know, scientifically, you said that the, the mitochondriadon't work or there's not enough of 'em. Tell us exactly like your definitionof mitochondrial Jake: disease. Yeah,so with the mitochondrial disease, the scientific definition is essentially ifyou have a deficiency within your mitochondria cell, the mitochondria cellitself, then you have a mitochondrial disease.Within that, there is a much broader spectrum of which one youhave. It can go, It is a very wide ranging spectrum. I think there's like 67,68 different sub conditions of mitochondrial disease. With myself, essentiallythe, the most common thing that almost everyone of a MIT deficiency has is anenergy deficiency, right?So right out the gate mitochondria produced like 96, 90 7% ofthe body's. So if they're not working right, you're already starting off of alow energy. And having a [00:07:00] low energycan lead to other things like having a weak immune system. And then you getinto things, like I said, every single organ, every single part of your bodyhas mitochondrial cells in it.So if your cell mitochondrial cells aren't working the way theyshould be you're gonna have deficiencies in those org organs. So as an example,I had a feeding tube from the time I was like 13 to the time I was 22. I, whenI was 13, 14 years old, I was like 56 pounds and four feet tall. I wasdiagnosed failure to thrive.They had tried everything and I was eating like a machine, butI was metabolizing things so quickly that the food wouldn't like do anything.It would just go right through. Right? So I had a feeding tube, and because ofthat, that's a lot of where my ADHD and my autism comes from. The mitochondriaGIS use, gastritis, gastroparesis, kidney stones since I was 13.All, all this bumped up, all stems traditionally from themitochondria disease as a baseline. Well that's De'Vannon: like,that's like a lot. That's like fucking a lot. Like fuck. [00:08:00] I looked up real quick and I saw thatabout one in 5,000 people both in the United States and globally have thisdisease. Jake: Yeah. And a lotof times it goes undiagnosed because a lot of doctors don't know what it is.So like most doctors, when I say mitochondrial disease, thinkI'm talking about multiple sclerosis, which are two very, very, very, verydifferent conditions. I mean, they couldn't be further apart. One is very muchso brain related and one is very much so body oriented. You know also I'veheard people say, Oh my, that must be muscular dystrophy.That's another one. Closer. But not exactly the same. I havebeen guilty myself of walking into the ER and being like, Yeah, I just havemuscular dystrophy because if I say me disease, I've had doctors look at melike I'm making something up. That has happened to me in the ER multiple times.I went in to actually.But I was admitted to the hospital the first after I saw, thoughtI was just there to get opioids because I was making up something that he'dnever [00:09:00] heard of. And that was a wholewonderful experience where I was like, Dude, no, I'm here because I'm in painand don't wanna be on opioids. Please don't gimme opioids.This is a real thing. You should know this. You're a medicalprofessional. I'm like that. A son of a bitch, , right? Like there's nothingmore infuriating than walking in. Hospital and them being like, Yeah, we don'tthink this is a legitimate thing. This is like, we've never heard of it can, orlike, having you, I don't mind having you explain to a doctor my condition.I usually just walk in with a binder now that I just like handthem. I'm like, Here's everything you need to know about my condition from likemedical specialists in my, in my hoop, Specialize in medo. Just read this andcall them if you have any questions. Because at this point, like I'm so tiredof giving the spiel to these doctors that it's just, it's frustrating andoftentimes they just don't want to hear it.I had to tell the when they were giving me my scope in thehospital to check my stomach. I'm like, You gotta make sure you don't gimmelactic ringers. I will have a reaction. And the nurse looked at me like I hadthree heads because most [00:10:00] patientsdon't tell on theirs that they can't have lactic ringers or even know whatlactic ringers are.So the fact that that was mentioned is just kind of one of thethings that I've been doing for so long. It doesn't phase me anymore. Okay. De'Vannon: And then Iread where you have an had an IEP all the way through adulthood. Yes.Adulthood. And I'm assuming that stands for an individualized education Jake: plan. Yes.So one of the things that is actually very dear and important tomy heart is special education. I intend to run for school board at some pointin my life. I think that people with disabilities need more representation onschool boards from those who have gone through the special education program.I had an iep originally, they wanted to give me a 5 0 4 plan, Ibelieve which is the alternative. But my mother made sure was an IEP cuz shewas a lawyer and knew the system, which is unfortunately something that a lotof kids don't have access to. But that is part of the reason I wanna getinvolved.We'll come back around to that. But I was on an iep originallythey wanted to hold me back in third grade cuz I couldn't write [00:11:00] cursive and that was a whole thing. Theygave me a bunch of. They came back and they said we can't hold this kid back.He's reading at a college level. He's writing at a college level.We should actually skip him ahead of grade. And that was like acomplete whirlwind. So yeah, but the IEP was literally one of the things thathelped me get through school. I actually had to go to three to three differenthigh schools before they finally figured out a system that worked for me.When I was at my first high school, I was getting like D's andF's, but they couldn't figure out why, because I was getting perfect scores onthe state test in Virginia and I was getting like, perfect scores on all myexams. And the reason was I wasn't doing the homework cuz it bored me. Itwasn't challenging enough.And so I just was like, I'm not gonna do it. Like it doesn't, Idon't get anything from this. So I would just like do the exams and then notbother up the homework cuz I knew most of the material. Then they moved me to asecond school where I had a teacher tell me that I couldn't go on a field tripwith my journalism class because she didn't wanna be [00:12:00]responsible for a medical condition.Because she didn't think I could ride the metro for an hourwith kidney stones, which was a whole thing. And my mom said, Uhuh, we're notdoing this. Like we're gonna, we're gonna find a different place cuz this isnot like, acceptable. And then finally I arrived at Falls Church High School inVirginia which is where I ended up graduating from and will always have aspecial place in my heart, which is why I continue to go back there and visitand get back to the school.But there they kind of realized that they had to create almostthis alternative like, plan to help me, I guess, or I guess make it moreaccessible for me, right? Because what ended up happening was I was doing allthese classes and I was, I was getting, like I said, perfect scores and I waseventually they came up with the quantity or quality versus quantity.Which meant that if I could prove that I was getting thematerial, it wasn't how much work I was doing versus the qual, the quality ofthe work I was doing. So at one point [00:13:00]during my senior year, we ended up with the situation because I started inMaryland that I had to take world history. I, and in Virginia, that is afreshman class in Maryland, that is a senior class.I at that point did not want to spend an entire school yearsurrounded by freshmen. Not that I had any problem with it, it was just thatfor me, with being on the spectrum of a bunch of other issues, I was having areally hard time connecting with the freshmen, being older. And also I hadalways had a hard time kind of in school connecting with people my own age.I often spent most of my lunch periods hanging out with thestaff and teachers. So they allowed me to spend that period with my teacherfrom the previous year in us. And, you know, helping him with grading papersand teaching US history and whatever world history had a test, I would takethat test and I would pass it.And that was kind of how they allowed me to navigate my senioryear. Most schools wouldn't have been okay with that, but in this situation,they realized [00:14:00] that if they weregonna fail me because of this, it would've, it would've made no sense becauseat the end of the year, I got a perfect score on the state test, which issomething that should be eliminated altogether because state testing is a jokeand a massive fraud.And realistically, is it the way we should be measuringpeople's success? But that's a whole nother story. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Wow. Thankyou for going into such great detail with that. I appreciate it because thoseare the sort of the, that's the sort of information that helps people. So in myresearch of you, I, I came across where you felt like your mom protected youway too much because of this chronic illness.I got the sense that. Maybe other parents do the same sort ofmaybe like overprotection thing. So I wanna know like what advice you wouldgive both to young people who have this disease and also to the parents ofyoung people who have this Jake: disease. Yeah.So I think first and foremost I should acknowledge that [00:15:00] while my mom and I don't have the world's bestrelationship, I acknowledge that she did the best that she could, right?She had three boys, all of a chronic illness that she had noexperience with as a single mother. And I respect the hell out of the fact thatshe did the best that she could in the circumstances that she could. And welived a relatively comfortable life growing up. And I will always have thatrespect for her, right?That that's never gonna go anywhere regardless of how strainedour relationship is. That being said, I think that it's important not just forparents of people with mito, but for parents. I'll start their parents,especially of kids with chronic illnesses, to understand that. You know, at acertain point in time, you're not gonna be there for your child anymore, right?Like, at a certain point in time, your child's gonna have to goout into the world in theory and figure it out on their own. And if you protectthem to a point where they get there and they're so used to people doing thingsfor them that they don't know how to handle themselves, it can create massiveroadblocks and relearning experiences that [00:16:00]put them behind the eight fall.Like I had never borrowed taxes previously up until a coupleyears ago because I had always been claimed as a dependent, and then all of asudden I wasn't a dependent and I had no idea how to do it. And it was likeincredibly overwhelming and incredibly alarming for me. And that was somethingthat I legitimately had to teach myself because I just had never even occurredto me.I think that the, the instinct just for parents in general isto protect, right? Because this is, this is someone, this is your child, right?Like you want the best for them, and you're afraid sometimes to take your handsoff the wheel. . But I think that you have to trust and find the balance ofletting your kid going, go out and fail and learn from that experience.But also being there to pick them back up when they do. Becausewhat I'm not saying to do is just push 'em out the nest and say, Okay, figureit out. But I'm also not saying like, to protect them to a point where theyhave no idea and think the world is this perfectly welcoming place to peoplewith disabilities because the reality is the world is really hard for peoplewith [00:17:00] disabilities.It just is. It is not a nice world out there at times. Andthat's something that I think a lot of kids with chronic illnesses, when theybecome into adulthood, find out the hard way. As for children and those teens,especially young adults going through this trying to find their independenceand expressed that they can do things, You know, the way I finally got my momto get it was just by demonstrating that I was capable of doing things.And eventually, if she really was adamantly against somethingand I really thought I could do it, I would just do it. And. At the end of theday, it may have led to some strain, but ultimately in the end, she understoodafterwards that I was just trying to show that I could, I could complete what Iwas trying to set my mind to.You know, she was pretty adamant against me becoming a DJbecause she didn't think it would be good for me with my medical condition. Andso because of that and because of my dad previously being a DJ and [00:18:00] thinking it would be a really hard worldto navigate for someone on the spectrum and all these other things, she did notwant to get me DJ equipment when I was younger.So I went on and bought my own. And then three years later shecame to see me play. She was like, Wow, you're really good at this. Like, youshould be doing this professionally. I'm like, I am, should. I've been tryingto tell you for the last three years is that I, I'm good at what I do and I'mokay with the trade off that it affects me medically because I make a bunch of peoplehappy and that's okay with me.But I think that not everybody has the ability to advocate likethat, Right? So, I would just say if you are a, a teen or a young adult outthere and you're saying, Man, I really wish my mom or my dad would like justget, get this point through their head. Just sit them down and be like, Look,at a certain point, there's gonna come a time when you just can't protect meanymore and I need to know how to navigate the world.And I think having that come to Jesus moment with them willreally, really help [00:19:00] open their eyes.So De'Vannon: the, thestrain that you spoke of between you and your mother was, is that the primaryreason there was strain because, you know, you were getting away from hercontrol and it sounds like she wanted what she thought was best and you had adifferent point of view and maybe she took that personally.Is that what, Was there something else that strange y'all evenfurther? Jake: I think a lotof it came down to the fact that she ultimately, Wanted to, wanted what wasbest for me in her eyes. And I wanted what was best for me in my eyes. And Iwas the oldest, right? I was her first born. So automatically she's gonna bethe most protective because she hadn't done it before.And traditionally parents who have multiple children, the firstborn is often told like, No, no, no. Like very protected. But then the secondand third or however many kids come after are often allowed to do things thatthe first born may not have been allowed to. Like I wanted to play in middleschool.I was told no, but my brothers both joined band in middleschool. And unfortunately growing up, it's [00:20:00]not as big of an issue now, but growing up there was a lot of resentment therebecause, well, why are you allowing my brothers to do the things you told me Icouldn't? But as I grow older, I kind of understand and try to piece togetherthose decisions and it starts to make more sense to me.But in the moment it created a lot of heat and strife. But alot of it, I think, did come down to the fact that yes, she. Wanted a lot ofcontrol, wanted to kind of in her mind, this is what's best. You know, I knowwhat's best, like I've done it. And a lot of it came down to me feeling like Iwas never quite good enough to live up to her expectations.And that kind of created a lot of headbutting where you know,being on the spectrum, a lot of these ideas kind of started fill in my head andwhether they were true or not, that's what became the image of my mother in mymind. Now we have come a long way since then. She is very supportive of mycareer now.She is very supportive of me now. She really does the best thatshe can, but as my fiance says, I think that she [00:21:00]is at the point where she just wants to be my, like, best friend and sometimesnot as much of like that's a point of mother figure, if that makes sense. WhichDe'Vannon: one wouldyou prefer? The best Jake: mother, or doyou want both?I mean, every kid wants to have that relationship with theirmother, Right? Where it was like you know, where. It's mom, right? Like I cancall mom and have her do cartwheels because I'm playing in New York City like Iwas last week. And you know, the reaction I got was, yeah, that's kind of cool.Okay. As opposed to like this overwhelming beaming of pride.For me that was a very big moment. And so I think there'salways a part of me that will want that relationship. But to understand thatyou have to go back to the relationship I had with her mother, my grandmother,which was, she was my best friend. She was absolutely, without a doubt theperson I was closest to on this earth.I came out to her first when I was like 16 and she's like,Yeah, okay, let me take you to the sex shop. Like let me help you. [00:22:00] Like if you need a place to, you know, doextracurriculars with people that's not your house, that's fine. You can do ithere. Like Grandma was the shit, like grandma used to have gay parties at herhouse all the time when she was younger.Grandma used to have all the kids in her neighborhood, but mymom and my uncle were younger, come over and party in her basement so that ifthey wanted to do drugs or something, they could do it under the supervision ofa, of a adult. And if they, something happened, she would rather to thehospital and all the parents in the neighborhood were fine with this cuz they'drather them be doing it under the supervision of somebody than doing it out onthe streets.And so these underground parties would just happen at mygrandma's house back, back in the day. And so she was literally everything Iaspired to be. She would give you the shirt off her back. I mean I very much soam my grandmother's child. And I think a lot of that bugs my mother in a waythat we are not as close as I was with, with my grandmother.But that was just because, you know, [00:23:00]grandmother, we call her, my mom and I were just incredibly close. We went toflyers games since I was a kid. We would talk sports. We often joked about theeulogies we would give at each other's funeral because that's how close wewere. If whichever one of us passed away first, like we had a very, very strongdynamic.She would not date somebody without my approval. Like it wasjust, she was like, Okay, like I, she's like, I need you to meet my grandsonand if he doesn't like you, then like, it's not gonna work. Like we were justthat close. It was that kind of a strong bond that some people just couldn'tunderstand.And I truly believe that even though she's no longer here in inperson, she's always with me in spirit. In fact, I always like to tell the. Andwhen she passed away, everybody assumed I would be devastated. I figured I'd bedevastated. But I went to the hospital, she just come outta surgery. She was ina coma, and I, I held her hand and I was like, Listen, like you've been througha lot in your life, girl.Like, you know, it, it's, it's okay. Like you don't gotta keepbiting this if you don't want to. Like, I will be okay. You will, you will be [00:24:00] okay. Like, I trust, I trust that we'regonna be fine, but if you feel like it's your time to go, then you know I'll beokay. And she squeezed my hand and I saw a tear come down her eye and I waslike, Okay.I knew that that's what we were doing. And I looked at her andI said, Just wait till I get back to your house before, before like anythinghappens because I can't be in the hospital. If you passed away, I will, I willhave a breakdown. And I drove back to her house and then I got the call that asI walked in the door, she had passed away.And then that. I had a dream where I, where she was there andwe spoke and we just spoke for hours and hours and hours. And she explainedlike, Look, I just want you to keep living your life. I don't want you toderail everything. Like, you know, this is what I need from you is to not stopliving because I'm never gonna not be there.I'll always be watching you. And then I was fine the next dayand I went about my life. Yeah, I was, I video1709663557: was De'Vannon: gonna askyou if you ever see her in your dreams because, you know, I see my grandmotherand my dreams, particularly in times of [00:25:00]stress and trouble and I had that strong relationship with my grandmother too.She, when I was a little crossdresser, running around at aboutfour or five years old in my, in an oversized shirt, one of my mom's belt andmy mom's little two inch pumps. You know, Granny would let me do that and she'dkeep a lookout in case my parents came back and give the signals I can get backin my boy clothes.And so, I'm here for the Grannys who watch out for the littlegay grandkids running around when the parents are too fucking stiff to get withthe fucking program. So you, it's just the most mindboggling thing. You know,grannys are born like the twenties and thirties and you would think people bornmore recently would be the more open minded ones, but they're just not.And so, so then your siblings don't necessarily have thisstrained relationship with your mom because she was more lenient on Jake: them. Yeah. Somy siblings actually both live out in California with my mother currently. I donot, I live about as geographically far away as I can [00:26:00]be on the East Coast.And you know, I think that, yeah, there, there, there's somestrain there, but not nearly as much as on that as we have. I actually don'thave the world's greatest relationship with my brothers either. In a lot ofways I explain that my brothers are very much like my mother. They're very typeA, they're very materialistic.Which is not, you know, you know, a bad thing in itself. Ifthat's what they are, that's what they are. Whereas I'm very much like mygrandmother, which is very type C. There is more than one right way to dosomething. Like if there's a start line and the finish line, how you get theredoesn't matter as long as you get there.My mother and my brothers, there's a start line and the finishline is really only one correct way to get to the finish line is how I kind oflike describe it. You know, to me my life has been a, a struggling journey,right? Like it's been, get knocked down, climb back up, get back down, climbback up. But the point is I always get back up and manage to get across thefinish line.Whereas, you know, in I think my mother and my brother's eyes,it's get back, get knocked down, but then go this way [00:27:00]as opposed to, you know, I'm like, you know, dude, a bunch of circles fall downa bunch of times, but I got there. But yeah, my brothers and I are starting todevelop a better relationship now.It. Great. I'm one of them is better than the other. They'reactually twins. So you know, there was always that to contend with. But yeah,I, I really am actually not close with a lot of people in my biological family.I do have a very close chosen family which, you know, we, in this community,very much so value, but as far as my biological family, I'm very close with mybiological father, but like not anybody else.De'Vannon: I am herefor all of the chosen family. Fuck this blood relative Jake: trauma andfamily . De'Vannon: The bloodrelatives can be very, very bad for your health. Y'all pick you a betterfamily. Do not have to contend with them. Blood relatives. Congratulations on the engagement. I heard you mentionedfiance. Jake: So actually funstory about that.[00:28:00] We actually had todo it twice. The first time I decided to do it at a pride party at Lobo. Wewere planning to do it the following month, but my mom actually got very upsetthat we didn't call and get her permission to get engaged and that she wasn'tthere. So she flew in the following month to Lobo and we did it all again sothat she could be a part of it.That is literally what we're dealing with which is not a badthing in itself. I get that she wanted to feel like she was involved, and I getthat it was a big deal for her. Her oldest was getting engaged. She's verytraditionalist in that way. I, you know, to me, I didn't really think it was abig deal in 2022 to have to call and be like, Hey, I'm getting engaged, youknow?But. I guess she felt she should have been informed and that'sfine. You know, And her, when she was my age, that was kind of the way it was.You know, Talk to your mother, talk to your father. Me. I'm like, Screw it. I'mjust gonna do this. Like, it was an auto whim decision at four in the morning.So like, you know yeah.But she did fly in the following month and we did it all againat Lobo in front of 400 people. Yeah. I mean, De'Vannon: [00:29:00] that's cute and all, but you lost me atpermission. Jake: Yeah, yeah. Itwas, it was a choice. It was a. De'Vannon: No, wedon't. We don't need nobody's permission to do the fucks we want to do. Butsee, that's why I'm always preaching for people to get over this addiction tofamily because inherent in blood family is a lot of control and a lot ofassuming that this person in the family or that person in the family cannot dothis unless we all agree it's good or something, some kind of bullshit likethat, that I tuned out years ago.I was like, Oh, hell no. . I observed my family. I'm like, Youknow what? All y'all's fucked up each and every fucking last one of y'all don'treally know how to live your damn life, so you not about to try to tell me howto live mine. Even though I am the youngest child. I got better sense than mostpeople in my family, if not them all.you know? So, mm. There there'll be no permission beinggranted. None of [00:30:00] this. I never cameout. I was like, If y'all can't figure it out, then shame on you. I'm doing myfucking life. Deal with it. . I mean, that's it myself Jake: to you bitches.That that's it. Like that, that's a hundred percent. It's, there's a ton ofcontrol.That's why I distanced myself from a lot of them. De'Vannon: Yeah. So Ijust wanted to point out we've been using the word chronic with this disease,y'all. And so what that means is that it's not like, and the opposite of thatis acute, meaning that it would go away over time or through treatment. Chronicmeans that, in this particular case, that there's really no like set cure forthe mitochondrial diseases.Well, so what they were treated with is like vitamins, physicaltherapy, I mean, not any kind of therapy to help the patient feel better, tohave a more comfortable life. They'll treat the symptom as they come up withvarious medications and stuff like that. But like with hiv, which is what, youknow, I have a history of.There's no way to like just say get rid of it. You manage thesymptoms and then you just promote an overall healthy [00:31:00]life. So when we say chronic, that's what we mean exactly. And so his websitey'all is jake maxwell productions.com. Of course that will go in the show notesand then the social media and all of that will be there too.So I bring up the website because this, I want you to tellpeople about that website and about how it all got started. I read where whenyou were 24 that you decided that you were gonna stop feeling sorry foryourself and stop letting your condition define you. So I want you to talk tome about this turning point that happened when you were 24.I want to hear about how your mind was before, cuz it soundslike you were in some. Pity party or a state of low self-esteem or feelingsorry for yourself or something like that, which can happen to us when we getsick or, or you know, we, or when we're fighting these uphill battles. So talkto me your mindset before you have this revelation at 24 and then Jake: after.Yeah. So, you know, [00:32:00]to understand that you kind of gotta go back to like when I was 18, it's alittle bit of a journey, right? So I had all these aspirations as a kid of allthe things I would be doing with my life. And, you know, a lot of them I hadachieved, like, I worked, started working in politics when I was 16.I was on a presidential campaign, I was on a senate campaign, Iwas on a congressional campaign. Like I had done all this stuff by the time Iwas 22. In fact, in 2016 I worked as a presidential and was like the youngestone as a field director in Virginia. So without a college degree. So I had, Ihad like accomplished that I did what I wanted to do on that front.And then, you know, 2016 happened and the whole world justkinda. Got flipped upside down. And I was not happy with the state of the worldand I was unhappy with where I was at with my life. I was going through thissituation where my grandmother had just passed away. And even though I was notreally affected by it as much as I was there, there was some lingering effects,obviously from losing that [00:33:00] strongconnection that I had.And I kind of, you know, was doing this DJ thing. I had, youknow, actually I've been in a kink relationship, not a, not a dating one, but akink one that it just ended and it ended very, very, very badly. And I was justlike, you know, I'm unhappy. I have this condition that's gonna kill me. Like Ihave, this is what was going through my mind, not currently, but at this timeit was like, I have this condition that's gonna kill me.I'm running into a wall. Like I'm, I don't know how to set pathforward. I haven't gone to college. Like, what, what am I doing? Like, what'sthe point? And. Eventually, like literally I was just lying in bed and one ofmy other friends called me and invited me out to a kink club, ironically, whichis how this story starts.And I was like, I wasn't gonna go, but he didn't really give mea choice. He said, You're coming or we're gonna come pick you up and take youregardless. So it's like, all right, I'll go, you know, what have I got tolose? And I went and at this party I met someone named David Merrill. [00:34:00] And this person was the catalyst for my DJcareer.Over time me and who would eventually become my chosen brother,best friend, and all around, like biggest support for me in my life. Corey, akaPhoenix. He, we would do kink demos at David's party. Corey would like flog me,right? And that, that's how my career started. And then one day I went to Davidwas like, David, can I like just dj?I was like, The DJ's not here. Do you mind if. Just try. And hewas like, Yeah, I mean, you know, it can't be any worse than we've ever had, sogo for it. And I went up there and I'm jamming and I'm having the time of mylife and I get done and I'm like, Man, that was awesome. And he's like, No, no,it wasn't, but you have potential and I can see it in you and I can teach youbecause you have something I can't teach, which is drive.You have drive and determination and I think you can get thereif you get someone in your corner to give you the support and the skills thatyou need. And I'm gonna do that for you. So sure enough, every day for like ayear, I'd go over to David's house and [00:35:00]I'd work on DJing and he'd show me things. And then eventually he startedbooking me at his parties.And then the next thing you know, I'm doing more of his events,not just the one. We moved to another event at another event, and I'm startingto get a little bit of a following, and then we kind of hit the turning pointmoment for me, which is when I get reached out to by a bigger promot. and they'relike, We would really like to book you.We think you're great. We think you're talented, but we don'tlike that you're non-binary and we don't like that. You don't really look likewhat a traditional circuit party DJ should look like. Mm-hmm. because I don'treally have the AB and I'm not like ripped and I'm not, all these other thingsthat traditional circuit parties, DJs at that time looked like and I'm like,Excuse the fuck outta me.The hell does that mean? And they were just like, Well, youknow, we just don't think you'll like, react well of the, probably will connectwith you like some of our other DJs. I'm like, Oh, okay, cool. Holding my beer.So I I looked at Corey and, and my friend piloted time and we start, we startedLobo and [00:36:00] that that's what it was.We, we basically started it because we wanted a safe space foreverybody else who wasn't welcome at these, these circuit parties. So wedescribe Lobo really as like a diverse circuit party. You're, you're not gonnawalk in the LOBO and see a bunch of cookie cutter gs, you're gonna see theeverybody else.And that's what we describe it as. You're gonna see the bears,the kinks stirs, the pups, the furries, you know, your big guys, your littleguys. Everything in between except for that traditional, you know, Abercrombieand Fit case, so to speak is how I describe it. And they come too, but in thiscase, they're not the majority.They're in the minority. And the looks on their faces when theywalk in is what makes it like just that much more special because they, it, itdawns that this is a party for everyone and always will be. But that turningpoint really for me, essentially be, it happened on a whim because I was justlike, you know, I need to stop trying to be what my mother wants.I have to stop trying to be what everybody else wants me to be.And if I really. [00:37:00] To be happy andDJing makes me happy. Why not? Like I am not beholden to anybody else'sexpectations of me. I am not beholden to anybody else's what they want me tobe. I basically was like, this is my life. And yeah, I may have all theseconditions and whatever, and this, that, and the other, but you know what?There are people far worse off in the world than me who aredoing far greater things. And sure, I could sit around and be sorry for myselfand sit in my room and just cry and do all these things, or I can go out and dosomething about it. And by doing something about it, it has now gotten to thepoint where we could start the nonprofit, where we can get back to others whomay need that quote unquote kick in the butt supporting shoulder to get themgoing.Going De'Vannon: Talk tome. I commend your ambition here and for fighting to maintain a positiveattitude, making decisions. I appreciate the mentor who helped to mentor youand groom you into DJing. So talk to me about how you give back. You mentionedlike you go back to your high [00:38:00] schoolfrom time to time to give out.I know Lobo has some sort of youth initiative. So tell me aboutall the ways that you give back. Jake: Yeah, so thefirst and easiest way to say how Lobo gives back is Lobo has a policy that we willnever price anybody out of a party. If you can't afford to come to our party,you just shoot us a message saying, Hey, I need a ticket.And we give you a ticket. It's a no question to ask policy,like we will never tell somebody that you cannot come to a community event. Andthe reason for that is no one should be told, Oh, well, we know how much thismeans to you and we know that you have friends in your community here, butsorry, if you can't afford the $15, you just can't come.It is a literally no question to ask policy. We will give you aticket. Now, if that starts happening every single month, we may have a talk,but essentially the way it is is we buy a block of tickets every month as Loboto just give out the people. We don't ask why we don't ask the policy. I need aticket done.Here you go. Like, that's it. And again, the main reason forthat is because we know the impact this has on people. We made that decision atday one that we were never gonna be the party that was so full of itself that wewere gonna tell people if you can't afford to go too, too [00:39:00] bad. So that's, that's the first thing.And that happens in every city we go to all across the country.At every party we do that is like a non-negotiable. So do we lose money on itsometimes, But it's worth it for us because Community first, that's what ourevents always been about. Recently we also launched the nonprofit which is theLOBO initiative.I believe we officially now have finally, finally gotten ourletter from the irs. I have to check. It's supposedly in the mail, but it'staken them like eight months to officially get back to us cuz they were sobacklogged. But that's why we've been like more quiet about it saying that it'sbeen approved.And so we're starting to roll it out. And the main, the mainfocus of the non-profit essentially is like to focus on LGBTQ specificallyyouth. Adults and adolescents and with a key focus on those with disabilitieswho wanna chase their dreams, but just don't have the financial support or theemotional support to get there.The easiest way I describe it is, you know, one of our [00:40:00] programs is a mentorship scholarshipprogram. You tell us I wanna be a dj, we buy you equipment and give you amentor in that field who will help you. And it's too pronged for this reason.One, getting the equipment is great, but you also need someone to help opendoors for you, right?Because that's how all fields work. It's all aboutcommunication and networking, and you can be really, really talented, but ifyou don't have somebody to sometimes help get you in, that can be half thebattle. If you don't have someone you can call like, Hey, I just got offeredthis opportunity, do you think it's legitimate?That can be a huge thing. So we pair you with a mentor to helpteach you your craft, but then also continually be there to help you along yourjourney. And that's one, when we explain it, what we don't do is give out cashvalue. We give out equipment, we give out classes, we give out basic thingsthat can help people go after their dreams.Because that was the big thing for me. Had I had that supportearlier, who knows where I would be now. Wow. De'Vannon: There wasa time that I wanted to become a DJ and I did go and research it. I would go tolike the Guitar [00:41:00] Center and justdifferent places and try to Google it and find it out. But it is so you, it isnot as simple as it, you know, getting turntables or now, you know, like aMacBook, you know, and putting an app on it and then just going, Hey, I'm gonnathrow a party , you know?You know, it was so, it was so, such a struggle to figure outwhere the fuck do I get started? Okay. So I get the equipment, I startpracticing at home, then where do I go? Do I go knock on doors? You know? Youknow. So the fact that you streamlined this process and. And, and to at leastgive people a chance and they're gonna be those who start, who won't keep downthe path.But at least they could say that, you know, they were given anopportunity, right? In being willing to open doors or people in the industry,you're trying to give them what you got, which is somebody to help to vouch foryou. You know, I, you know, when you started DJing, I wish to the heavens, youknow, to God that we had that in every industry, you know, because there is somuch good talent out there, but it's [00:42:00]so much of it to this day.It's about who you know is like that in the author industry.You know, I'm a good writer, you know, but, you know, and I have a lot of goodstories to tell, but trying to get it out there is difficult because there's nolike, you know, mentor for, you know, for me to do that. So I appreciate thefuck outta that.Oh my God. Like, who knows? Maybe I'll, I'll go to DC orsomething and join your initiative and become a DJ at Laugh . Jake: So, so one ofthe cool things about it is we actually have mentors in all fields. We havepeople who work in the author industry. We have people who are writers,artists, DJs. Like I use DJ as the example, cause that's the easiest way tosay, but we, some of 'em reaches out to us like, Hey, I wanna be a film adirector.We have film editors who do YouTube, who are big YouTube starsand all these other things who will help, you know, teach them and we'll sendthem a camera and we'll be like, Hey, you know, here you go. Here's who youreach out to, you know, talk to them. Our whole thing is basically, if you tellus what you wanna do, we will find somebody who can help you and get you whatyou need.It's, it's really [00:43:00]that simple. And that is why, you know, we believe that it's so important tohave this because it's one of those things where you. There are so many people,like you said, there's so many fields who are ridiculously freaking talented atwhat they do, but they just don't have the monetary support, they don't havethe equipment support, they don't have the mentor to open doors.And so because of that, they fall through the cracks. And thatis what we want to pick up the pieces in because especially in the disabilitycommunity, but across the LGBTQ and really all communities in general, youknow, people slip through the cracks and that's when we have this opportunitywhere we miss so many great, talented people.Hallelujah. Jesus. De'Vannon: It does.Well then we'll talk after the show about what you might or might not do forme. You know, I can't lose anything by asking you know, so I don't like howthey were trying to change you. You know, that [00:44:00]opposition you met for being who? Are, you know, because the only reason that,that, that production company would've reached out to you and told you all ofthis would've been because they had in mind the way that they could change youand make you into a different person.You know? Other than that, there's no reason to reach out andbe like, We love everything about you except for who you actually are. Sochange that and then, you know, we could make this work. I come up against thatin the writing industry because I write very like real, you know, if we'retalking about getting fucked in the ass and come spraying the place andshooting up meth and blood on the ceiling, and then that's what the fuck we'regonna say.We're not, there's no other way to say it cuz of what happenedhappened. But a lot of people are very conservative who hold a lot of power ina lot of different industries, especially in the music industry and it peoplewho, who create very polarizing art, you know? You know, it sucks when yourwork lands on the desk of that conservative bitch, you know, you know, in thepublishing house or in the, you know, be it music [00:45:00]or you know, literary or whatever.Because that person, I've seen them take like an adversereaction to work, whereas had had more liberal person gotten ahold of it, theywould've gotten a point as opposed to clutching their pearls and shit andcutting off their circulation. Now they can't fucking think straight, you know,about what's in front of 'em.So what cities is low in, because when I looked it up, onething, you know, like just what cities? I know you're at least in dc, Columbus,Ohio, Virginia Beach, Norfolk area, Jake: where else?Yeah, so our website is a little bit behind because we're growing much quickerthan one person could keep up of it. But currently we are in Norfolk, VirginiaBeach.That's one. Columbus, DC, Pittsburgh, New York with, have acouple other cities on the, on the way. In addition to some other ones thatwe'll be returning to, but those are the big ones that we're at regularly. Wealso have Richmond coming soon. [00:46:00] Inaddition to Lobo the party, we also have Lobo, the drag show slash drag brunch,which is in New York, Norfolk, and DC as well.Which we do to elevate Queens who just wanna get experience andalso those who are incredibly talented. So we do that. And those, that's wherewe are currently. I can't say some of the other cities we haven't announcedofficially yet, but we do have some more in the wings coming soon. De'Vannon: Okay. I'mtaking a note on that logo drag show.I'll be in New York in November. Jake: Well, weshould, we should talk, we should talk De'Vannon: just thefirst in November, so we'll see. What's going on for sure. So, so the circuitparties, you know, they're only like, The prices I saw were like 10, $15.That's not super expensive to begin with. For what a circuit party could cost.Yeah. . So I thought the pricing was very, very humble and I'mso pleased to hear that you're really going out of your way to reach [00:47:00] for PE people. Do you have like a story ofsomeone who came, came to one of your events or one of your locations? Like abefore I get before and after story. Jake: Oh yeah, I gotplenty.We get, we get messages from people all the time who haveliterally said that our event has changed their life. And that's one of thethings that actually I'm gonna pull one up right now. Sorry. I gotta find itcuz there's one I do like to tell like at the very onset because it was someaningful.That's fine. While De'Vannon: you'relooking for that, I have another question. So in all of these cities, do youhave like an office? Do you have people who work for your organization? Andthen congratulations on officially becoming a nonprofit. Yes. So, so do youhave a physical location? Cuz these parties don't happen like, say every Jake: weekend.So the easiest way to explain it is Lobo, the party is forprofit and the LOBO initiative [00:48:00] isnon-profit. Okay. So Lobo the party, which is where we are in multiple citiesofficially, we don't have offices, but we do have people on the ground in allthose cities who, and we have telegram chats for every city we're in.So people can come and join and find that sets of community forthe city that they're, they're going to. So there's a Lobo Columbus chat, aLobo DC chat, a Lobo Norfolk chat. And these are like just telegrams andmessages that pups use. And what it is, is it's just another way to create thesets of community where people can just kind of come and express themselves.We also have the one community shared for Lobo as all citiesshare it. It is the Lobo Horny Jail chat. You can probably figure out what happenedin that chat. But that is because we don't believe in people being restrictedand expressing themselves. We've never been about that. Like, go on, expressyourself, like, you know, do your thing.So that is a chat for all the cities to come and do theirextracurricular horny stuff with. But that one's always fun to just kind of popin and see what's going on. But yes, we do have people and admins and all those[00:49:00] chats. We also have a communitydiscord where people can go. So that is how we connect with everybody.I'm always reachable. That's partly why I'm so tired is becauseI respond to messages like 24 7. But yeah. One of the things we tell people iswhen we go to a city, we don't just wanna be the party that comes and takesyour money and leaves until we come back. We are all about celebrating andlaying down community roots.And a lot of these cities already have community organizationsoutside of us. So we work with them, with those local organizations to helpthem get funding or whatever we can do. To help elevate their events because wedon't need to have a monopoly on this type of an event that doesn't helpanybody. If they're succeeding, we're succeeding, and that's what we're allabout.De'Vannon: Okay.That's pretty kick ass. So basically since you have a network of people canjust, they do like meetups and stuff like that, they can still physically reachout and text somebody in these various cities if need be. So can find all ofthis at the Jake: website. [00:50:00] All the telegram chats are on the website.We also have a general announcement channel on Telegram, whichhas all this info. We put it out on twitterer regularly and rotation how tojoin the chats. But basically on all of our socials, you can usually find yourway to whatever chat you're looking for. Or if you have the wrong end up in thewrong chat, someone will immediately get you to the right oneBut oftentimes what we see is that people join all the LOBOchats because they just want to, even if they're not anywhere near that city.Oh, how fun. Okay. Do you have that before? I do. So one of the messages we gota couple actually January of this year was from a friend of mine who's becomevery close to me, and the message kind of went something like this.It says real talk. I have to say straight to you. I can't tellyou how grateful I am for Lobo. I only found out about it around a month ago,and it became genuinely one of the best months of my life, arguably the best.I've had a very long history of depression and loneliness. I wasn't exactlypopular in school growing up, being a nerdy, painfully shy, weird kid, and I [00:51:00] was really nose diving this year.Then I ended up being introduced to this community and havedone a total 180 as far as my mental health goes. For the first time in mylife, I felt like I've had a true friend group, and I can't describe howamazing that felt. Put it this way, the day after the December lo, I feltreally strange, and it took a few hours into that day to realize that thatstrange feeling was because it was the first time and I couldn't begin to guesshow long that I woke up about a black cloud on my mind.The sun seemed brighter, My vision was. The world just felt somuch more alive to me as I've reflected on my past what's happened for me, thispath, I realize how much I was doing mentally in 2021, and the conscious of howamazing this December's been like for me, I've come to swear, Lobo has prettymuch saved my life.It was getting that bad for me. I really don't think I couldthank you enough for making Lobo a thing. De'Vannon: Well, I'mhere for all of that. Let me go on ahead and give you a clap and Jake: yes, , and youget messages like that and just like it hits you so deep. Like, I mean, I crysometimes when I get messages like this [00:52:00]because one of the things that is sometimes hard for me to realize is thatwe've created something and I, I often get credited for, but it's me and myentire team and my co-owner and best friend and brother by choice Phoenix.Like we have built this thing from the DC Eagle distinct littleparty in DC into something so much bigger than we could have ever imagined. Andsometimes I especially kind of live in this bubble where I'm not aware how manypeople it's impacting or the impact it's having. And so when we get that memessages like that, it's like, oh my goodness.And at the end of the day, you know, people are always like,Well, why? Like, why even bother keep doing it? And I always tell them thefollowing, which is that, yes, doing Lobo and being on the road every weekendand traveling is terrible for me medically and will probably take a coupleyears off my, off my life.And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that trade off. And thereason for that is very simple. I am making people's lives better. My team ismaking people's lives better. We are creating a community event [00:53:00] that is impacting the world. And that'sall I've ever wanted. If I was to die tomorrow, I, I could leave a legacy thatwe've changed some people's lives and that's all I've ever wanted to do.And so for me, if you're telling me that I would lose a coupleyears in exchange for saving a couple. Then that's fine. If you're telling methat I can leave the world in this, a legacy in this event that basically willhelp to create, find people of their chosen family, I'm okay with that at theend of the day because that is what I've always wanted to do, is basically livelife like my grandmother and leave the world in a better place than I found it.And right now there's a lot of people leaving the world in amuch fi place than they found it. But if I can just impact one person, then itwas worth it for me. Amen. Everything De'Vannon: you justsaid. I mean, and you mentioned having, you know, fighting the disease andtraveling and you know, and I know DJs don't exactly get off work at 5:00 PM soI know, I know you're worthy for the wee hours.So is there any sort of special thing that you do to keep yougoing? Because [00:54:00] I know you mentionedfatigue, it can be one of the symptoms. So how are, how do you manage thedisease and do all that? You do Jake: Red Bull, ,lots and lots of Red Bull. No the DJ answer is Red Bull and Caffeine pills, butthe actual answer is basically from Monday to really, like Thursday it's sleepand recovery, and then starting on Thursday night it's travel, and Friday andSaturday it's go, and then we start the process over again.That's really what it is. It is draining. It is hard. It isrough. It is not easy with the mito, but at the end of the day, like I alwayssay, it's, you know, the look on people's faces at Lobo and the messages thatkeep me going. It's, it's knowing that we're doing something and. Thatultimately I get to live a life that many people wish they could.And I'm very appreciative for that. But I'm also not mistakenon how many people sacrifice for me along the way to get me here. You are a De'Vannon: gratefulmotherfucker. I [00:55:00] love it. So, toexplain, Jake I read where you do like, you create events for people withsensory issues. I wanna know what sort of sensory issues you speak of and howyou tailor Jake: it.Yeah, so that's something new we are still laying thegroundwork for, but that we have done. And what we are trying to do isbasically create nightclub events for people who, who have sensory issues,sensory overload, loud noises, lights like, you know, we can do. One of thethings that people often say is, and this is especially true in kink andnightlife just for the record, is I can.Make this accessible? Well, sure you can. You just don't wantto, you don't wanna put any extra legwork to get it there. There are times whenyou can't make something accessible. Like if there's only a stairway up, I getthat. But, you know, don't tell me you can't play the music at a lower level ona, on a certain night and not do a bunch of flashing lights.Like that's, that's an easy fix. That's an incredibly easy fix.It's just the fear of alienating your ongoing base is what is preventing people[00:56:00] in a lot of ways with a lot ofdisability accessibility. It's fear of alienating those who might not wantthat. And you can hear I think some of the passion in my voice when we talkabout this, because as someone with a disability, I never want someone to feellike they can't go somewhere because of something that may trigger somethingfor them.So one of

Technically Speaking 🎤
Clone Yourself: The Reality Of Hiring Virtual Assistants

Technically Speaking 🎤

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 8, 2022 36:57


One of the biggest challenges business owners face – and one you may have wrestled with yourself – is how to do more in the time you have. Between running a business, bringing in new revenue, making connections with potential clients, and trying to continually improve... well, how do you do it all? To answer this, we're joined on this episode by serial entrepreneur turned spiritual seeker Sam Kabert. Named one of Silicon Valley's "40 Under 40" at just 31 years old, Sam is the author of SOUL/Life Balance and the host of the Soul Seekr Podcast, which aims to "bridge the gap between the way we conduct ourselves in business, mindful practices, how we communicate with everyone, especially oneself, all through prioritizing psychological safety and mental health first." Sam is also the founder of SwagWorx & Clone Yourself University, a content platform designed to help business owners hire virtual assistants (or VAs) to help take work off their plate. With these goals in mind, this episode is all about delegating where possible in your business so you can have the greatest impact possible (and stay sane, despite the challenges of entrepreneurship). There are a ton of great lessons and resources in this episode, so let's dive in! Show Notes: ✅ Visit Clone Yourself University: https://www.cloneyourselfuniversity.com/freebies ✅ Download Sam's free guide to practicing better SOUL/Life balance: samkabert.com/practice ✅ Check out FreeUp, Sam's recommended VA marketplace: https://freeup.net/

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #76: Racism In Drug Policy, Separate Healing Spaces For POC From White People & Stopping Whiteness From Controlling The Narrative, With Ifetayo Harvey, Founder Of The People Of Color Psychedelic Collective

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Nov 3, 2022 62:08


INTRODUCTION: Ifetayo Harvey is the founder and board president at the People of Color Psychedelic Collective. Ifetayo's experience of growing up with her father in prison brought her to drug policy reform work at the Drug Policy Alliance. In 2013, Ifetayo was the opening plenary speaker at the International Drug Policy Reform Conference in Denver, Colorado. Ifetayo briefly worked at the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies in 2015 where she was inspired by Kai Wingo's Women and Entheogens Conference in Cleveland, Ohio. Ifetayo worked at the Drug Policy Alliance (DPA) for five years because of her passion for ending the war on drugs. While at DPA, Ifetayo penned the piece Why the Psychedelic Community Is So White in 2016 and began organizing other folks of color and allies in psychedelic circles. Ifetayo comes from a family of seven children raised by her mother in Charleston, South Carolina. She has a Bachelor's degree from Smith College in history and African studies. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      Breakdown Of What The POCPC Is·      Whiteness Controlling The Narrative ·      Racism in Drug Policy·      White Fragility ·      The Need For POC To Have Healing Spaces Apart From White People·      The Benefits Of Psychedelics – And Risks·      Stories Of Racism In The South·      Theory Vs. Real Life·      Internalized Superiority & Internalized Inferiority ·      The Student Loan Forgiveness Hypocrisy   CONNECT WITH IFETAYO: Website: https://www.pocpc.org/Website:  https://www.ifetayo.meYouTube: https://bit.ly/3FS2Z9xFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/pocpsychedelics/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/pocpsychedeliccollective/Twitter: https://twitter.com/POCpsychedelicsLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3Fx8p9H  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Ifetayo Harvey is the founder and board president at the People of Color, Psychedelic Collective, y'all. I love the name of that organization so much. I believe, I'll say it one more time. I said the people of color, psychedelic collective. Fat's experience of growing up with our father in prison ignited the spark that has led to this amazing individual's body of work in the area [00:01:00] of drug policy reform.Please join us today as we discuss politics, drugs, and how racism and whiteness plays into all of.Hello, all, all my beautiful souls out there. I appreciate each and every last one of you and the time that you take the tune into the sex drugs in Jesus podcast. Well, if today we're gonna be talking a lot more about drugs than we are gonna talking about the Lord, hallelujah. But I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus didn't do a little hit of something back in his day and you know what I mean?Just cuz it ain't written, don't mean it didn't happen. Hallelujah, tabernac and praise. So the day I have with me, lovely, lovely, lovely darling, lady by the name of Epi Atta darling, and she is the founder of the People of Color psychedelic Collective. Ain't that a fucking mouthful? I'm gonna say it again, [00:02:00] y'all.I'm say it again y'all. The people of color, psychedelic collective. My homeboy, Jay Schiffman, over at the Chooses Struggle podcast told me about this individual here and I felt like Dracula as we getting close to Halloween, I need to just sink my bangs into her. And today I have her. How are youIfetayo: Oh, I'm doing great now that I'm talking to you. Oh, how are you doing?De'Vannon: fan? Fucking fantastic. And you know, I'm on this whole new like drug discovery journey myself, and what I've been doing is working hard to siphon off out of my mind. The voices that I realized that were present affecting me that I didn't know. And what I mean by that, Voices from the military, voices from the church, voices from my parents' house.You know, I'm thinking, I say for instance, I used to really look [00:03:00] down upon drugs, you know, and things like that. Well, you know, I thought about it. It was like, okay, where the fuck did I get that from? Was that due to personal discovery? Was that what they told me? You know? And so many of the voices in my head I've been finding lately, even as I'm approaching 40, you know, it's still, you know, what they told me.And it's not actually my own voice. I've been angry about it. I've been pissed off about it. I've been up about it, I've been down about it. And so I love the work that you do. And it's so on tempo at the times right now, is this resurgence? You know, psychedelics is coming now. You started this back in 2017. And and so just tell us about. What in your words, the people of color psychedelic Collective is and why you started it?Ifetayo: Yeah, so people of Color Psych Collective, we are a non-profit doing education and community building for folks of color interested in learning about [00:04:00] psychedelics and ending the war on drugs. And so since we've started, we've done panel discussions, We've had a conference, we had a retreat and of course this covid started happening.We've done online workshops on varying topics. And the reason why I started was because I was tired of seeing whiteness dominate the conversation on psychedelics. And I was also tired of people trying to have conversations about race where they were afraid to speak directly on race and . Okay. I wanted to make a space for people to be able to.Talk about those things without having to worry about, Oh, what is this white person gonna think? Or, Oh, is white fragility gonna get in the way? Because a lot of times it does. So that was part of my motivation. The other part was [00:05:00] prior to me creating my organization, I worked at the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies, which is also a mouthful. People call it maps. And they do clinical research on psychedelics. And so I worked there for about eight months and I was the only black person there. And it was clear during my time that like working on, you know, racial trauma for black folks was not a priority. Working on even unpacking. The whiteness of the organization was not a priority either. And even involving black folks or other folks of color in their research wasn't our priority. And to me, in my mind, I was just like, we as black people, we have, you know, some, some of the highest rates of trauma in this country. You know, just [00:06:00] given our, how we got here, our story in this country. You know, I, I grew up in Charleston, South Carolina, where we have a number of plantations, old historical sites is where a lot of us were brought through, right?A lot of our ancestors. So to me it just didn't make sense. , Black people's trauma wasn't being talked about. Indigenous folks'. Trauma wasn't being talked about or centered in these conversations around trauma. A lot of times it center just white, middle classness. Right. I was just tired of our trauma and our pain and our healing being second to theirs, and I wanted to create a space where we could talk about our experiences of using these substances, but also our experiences of the war on drugs and how it impacted our communities and how, you know, this new narrative of [00:07:00] psychedelics.You know, reemerging kind of leaves us out.De'Vannon: When you, Thank you for that beautiful breakdown. So when you mention the war on drugs, I like to to talk about it a little bit so, As I understand it, something I learned. I've been watching all my documentaries. I'm a documentary whore. I was watching that one, , How To Change Your Mind on Netflix. And then there's one on PBS called The History of Mental Illnesses.And they both went over like the different psychedelics. But what they, what they made me aware of was how psychedelics were used many years ago before, I think it was fdr, Franklin d Roosevelt, I think started that initial war on drugs. Don't quote me on that, but I think it was him. You know, And then all the clinical studies shut down because of the government policy.And so, and now we're seeing this resurgence of the psyche's coming back because the war on drugs clearly hasn't worked. And I was reading Emmi [00:08:00] Lord Emily Duff's book about, what's it called? Nope. I have to look that up because it's all about like marijuana. It's called grassroots and the rise and fall of marijuana, you know, in the book, her book and then the documentary gets into how, you know, drugs are demonized and they made it seem like people were gonna like, you know, smoke the weed and then go rape the white women, you know, and shit like that.You know, all of our mental health issues was us attacking someone else as opposed to something happening to us. But this is the trap we fall into when they, like you said earlier, going snatch our ancestors up out of Africa where they were just happy bouncing around doing them. Teddy's flopping in the red wind dick swinging as it should be Then here comes some people snatching you up and lo and behold, you [00:09:00] traveling internationally when you, you probably didn't know about no fucking other nations. And so, so the narrative was controlled by the people from CaucasianIfetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: so the c cassity of it all. And so I love how it's like, I feel like we're taking more of this power back or getting it for the first time maybe.You know, and a lot of this is coming through psychedelics, so I appreciate the fact that you, that you started this and then you stuck with it all this time. Covid has come, you still got it going on, so I commend you on that.Ifetayo: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you make an interesting point about the history of drug prohibition in, in the US I will say. So it was Nixon who started the war on drugs, the official war on drugs, but even prior to Nicks and there were a lot of drug laws on the books. You know, we had alcohol [00:10:00] prohibition in the twenties and that didn't work.And lots of people die cuz they're making , you know, moon shine and other stuff. And it sometimes was poisoned or, you know and you're right, a lot of drug. Ma rooted in racism, just point blank period. I think you used the example of like the whole reefer madness talking about like the fear of you know, black men or Latino men smoking weed and going to have sex with white women.And that's pretty much, you know, the same for cocaine. Opium, It's, they've all been all these drugs have been used to build a certain narrative around racial groups, and it's all been built around white fear and white fragility. Yeah.De'Vannon: fragile though it don't take, it don't take much to piss Karen off. [00:11:00] Not at all. Not at all. And I, look, I'm not talking about all you white people out there. I've had to be so much white dick in my life. Real and I intend to have some more. So it's not all of y'all. You know who you are, Karen, probably not even listening to this type of show.maybe you are, of you're open minded. I had a dream like a couple of weeks or months ago or whatever, getting in this dream. It's like the Lord was telling me I've been a gifted dream or so It was about like four or five. That's how, that's how the spirit first revealed himself to me was it was like in this dream and I've been dreaming ever since,Ifetayo: mm-hmm.De'Vannon: but, but recently I had this dream and it was like, it was like these like conservative people, like white people were singing a song.Ifetayo: Hmm.De'Vannon: Whenever you hear music in a dream, a good thing, especially, well if it's melodious and.Ifetayo: I D.De'Vannon: but the heart song, like the heart message of it, the heart of the song was, is like they were [00:12:00] asking me like, is there a way, is there something they could do different? Is there, was there a way that they, something they could change?And I felt like, and I felt like, you know, that there is a, now we've always had like, you know, even back in slavery days, the, the white defectors, you know, the, our allies, you know, But in this dream here, these were people who have been closed minded to the struggles of minorities and people who are different from them.And it's like, in this dream, it's like the Lord is showing me that. Like, maybe he's like, he's turning their hearts or they're changing their minds, or something like that. And so I'm, I'm revealing this dream here to say that I think that the work that you're doing and stuff like that, even though these people might not, you know, go on the news, go on Fox News wherever, and say they're changing their minds. I think it's making a difference because otherwise that dream wouldn't have come to me because I don't, I don't invest a lot of energy into trying to change conservative people. I focus on the people they have hurt, [00:13:00] and so I really think that what you're doing is going a long way.Ifetayo: Well, thank you. Thank you. That's, that's, that means a lot especially, you know, caring or connecting that to your dream. Cuz I'm really into dream meetings. And yeah, it's, it sometimes feels like our country's progressing into old ideas or outdated ideas, but I, I still have hope that, you know, that's not the case for a majority of the people, even though sometimes the kids feel like.De'Vannon: Yeah, that's why it's good to take a media purge Sometimes I just don'tIfetayo: Oh yeah.De'Vannon: for like a few days and just detox a media detox.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: So the services you provide, I'm gonna talk about 'em from your website, beautiful website, y'all. All that information will go in the showy [00:14:00] notes, as it always does. And then they're, they're on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, all of that will go in the showy notes. You know, you have like community building, education, arts and culture. So do kind a person like walk into like your office and receive some sort of service, or are you mainly doing outreach, like on the ground? What is it?Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. So interesting. We are remote based. We've always been remote based since before the pandemic. I live in New York and I've been in New York for about six years, and I have folks in DC Chicago go. Colorado and California, and Portland, Oregon. So we don't provide any direct services partly because a lot of these substances are illegal. So we cannot legally, I mean, in some states, , well, I would say [00:15:00] decriminalized, but in some, in some states it would be decriminalized. But we can, we can't do like psychedelic therapy or like a healing ceremony officially under our organization. But we do connect people, you know, if someone like reaches out to us and say like, Hey, I need help.We can connect people to other services practitioners and other resources out there. And you know, before the pandemic we would go to different cities. Events and, you know, do discussions. Theres, so, like back in 2018, we did a kind of like a partnership panel with the DC Psychedelic Society and the Philadelphia Psychedelic Society.And we talked about patriarchy and psychedelics and that, I mean, much needed conversation. So we'll do, we'll do things like that. I hope in the future we're able to do more direct [00:16:00] services. We've been really focused on building our capacity as an organization. So like we recently incorporated as a non-profit and we're waiting for our 5 0 1 C three to come in and we we received our first grant last year.So yeah, we're, we're, we're slowly building toward that. And I I put emphasis on the slowly because. I think that there's this trend in the site up space for everyone to wanna start their own group and just be known for psychedelics and . That's cool, but it's not sustainable. There's a lots of, you know, different people out there and, and psychedelics are powerful substances.And I am in no rush to, you know, I don't wanna say I'm, I'm not in a rush to give people psyched dogs. I mean, I'm not doing that, but I'm just not in a rush to do that because I know that they're [00:17:00] very powerful substances and it, they take some preparation and and it's also not something to play around with. I, I believe in building a strong container of care for folks if you're going to hold space for them. And I think you do that by being. Prepared. So studying and also just being ethical. So, yeah.De'Vannon: You all, I might have to get your Portland Connect and your New York connection referral cause I'll be in Portland at the end of the month dealing about doing some on the ground research.Ifetayo: Okay.De'Vannon: And I have some jet blue miles that I need to burn. And from New Orleans down here where near where I live, they Jet Blue only goes to New York Fort Lauderdale and Boston.And I've been all three of 'em already, so I may need to come fuck with y'all in the, in the end. Why?Ifetayo: [00:18:00] Yes.De'Vannon: So, so you mentioned a couple of other organizations that you partner with.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: You had mentioned maps already. I noticed that I dropped the donation on y'all earlier. You.no. No problem honey. But, and I'm not, I'm not really bragging about that.But when I did it, the, that, like the thank you page said like maps and everything like that. So are you still connected directly with.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. Funny how that works. We are fiscally sponsored by maps. So before, I would say from 2017 to 2020, we were I believe we were, yeah, we were incorporated as a non-profit. And when we got our grant, we were kind of in a time crunch because they were like, We wanna give you this money and we're going to offer you a match component, a $10,000 match. So we're like, Okay, well we don't have a 5 0 1 C [00:19:00] three, so how do we do this ? And they're like, Oh, well, if that's the case, we may not give you the money. . No, I'm just kidding. They didn't say that. But we had to figure out like, how are we gonna do this? And so maps, we looked at a couple other organizations maps had the internal infrastructure set up so we could do that quickly and be able to receive our grant fully.So in a way I kinda, I kind of look at it as like . It's kind of like, Oh yeah, y'all owe us this, you know, so it won't be forever. But you know, it's, it's for now.De'Vannon: Yeah. Well, congratulations on your 5 0 1 3 C status. I, I know it's there. I just know.Ifetayo: ThankDe'Vannon: And y'all for, for those of you who don't know, MAP stands for Multidisciplinary association folks, Psychedelic studies. I didn't know this much research in this much [00:20:00]organization, this many organizations was built around this.You let the news tell it. You know, you let the media tell it. Everything about shrooms and all the different psychedelics is just the devil. you know, that's not, that's just actually not the case at all Now. Now I mentioned earlier some of the pillars that you mentioned on your website, community building, education, arts, and culture.I love a quote that you have on there from arts and culture. Then I wanna talk about the art show you did in 2021. Now you said, quoting from the website along with policy and education, art in all its forms, brings about cultural change. End quote. What does that statement mean to you?Ifetayo: Well, to me it means that, Cultural change is just as impactful, if not more impactful than policy change. I've worked for a few organizations that do policy advocacy work, and I, I don't do policy advocacy work. That's not my day [00:21:00] job. I'm more of a digital communications person. But I'm not very motivated by policy work cause I don't like politicians. And I think, I mean, yeah, politicians aren't to be liked either, right? Like we treat politicians like celebrities and I mean, fuck celebrities too, but yeah, we treat them like they're our friends and it's like, no, like screw those people. So and I think. Honestly, Bureaucracy's gonna be the death of a lot of us.Like bureaucracy in this country just stops a lot of progress from happening. And the way that our political landscape is set up in this country is just, it's just a mess. So . So that's that. I do believe, I do believe that policy can change people's lives, but I do think cultural change can be more impactful.It can be more fun, [00:22:00] it can be more engaging. And at my day job, I work for a caregiver advocacy org. We have a culture change department. And so what they do a lot of times is work with influencers, celebrities, artists, musicians, actors, actresses, and get them to kind of look at our issue a little differently and maybe speak on our issue, work with us, some of the folks. In the culture change department. They also work in Hollywood writer's rooms, so getting our narratives on TV shows in film. And I, I do think that work like that gets people talking a lot quicker. I often find that policy is very jargony and not easily understandable by the average person. And I do think that's partly done by design But I'm also, you know, I'm a, I'm a child of music [00:23:00]education. I grew up you know, in South Carolina studying music since I was a kid. And it had a huge impact on my life. And I feel like what I've been noticing is. That's kind of fading away as a part of our education in the US music and arts education. And so something I'm, I'm very passionate about overall, I think that, you know, when we get, you know, people who, with influence speaking about our issues, whether it be a celebrity or just a community leader, people start to pay attention. People start to think about it differently. Unfortunately, that's just how our society works.We need a celebrity or someone with influence to speak on our to speak on our issue. And, you know, I, Hmm, Yeah, I think that, [00:24:00] that's all I'll say on that.De'Vannon: We'll love it. And, and y'all can check out a video that has to do with this art show on the website. There's lots of videos on the website and and, and of course, obviously on their YouTube channel. I love how, you know, your videos bring so much of your work to life. Can you talk to us about like the, the, the education leg, because on your website there's like you speaking at. These different conferences and things like that, there's the one conference that you spoke at you know, according to the website, you woke up with a stomach virus that day or in a food poisoning. You had food poisoning that instead of canceling it, you, you took a seat and you went on ahead and you let the Good times rollers, where, say, down here in the Cajun land, Leslie Le Bon. So, so, so, so talk to us about, about your, your speaking engagements and how, what it's been like to travel with your message.Ifetayo: Yeah, yeah. That particular speech you're [00:25:00] referencing was last year in Vegas at Meet Delic. And that was an interesting event because it was like very industry side. And so I was speaking about how we need to move beyond just the notion of wellness and how wellness has shortcomings. I think that along with the resurgence of psychedelics in the media and just in our communities in general, we're also seeing, you know, a lot of talk of varying healing modalities.And while important, I think we, we could sometimes use wellness as an escape from actually organizing. Improving our communities. And I think that there are a lot of people in the psychedelics space who, who think that by taking psychedelics, they're going to be more [00:26:00] involved, more liberated than other folks without any, doing any political work or community organizing or building or that kind of thing. So I'm often, you know, the person in a lot of these events and conferences, kind of reminding people that like structural oppression exists and psychedelics aren't coming to change that. Because I think that for a lot of folks, they just think like, Oh yeah, just take psyched dose and boom, that's, you know, and I wish it was that easy, but it's not.So I, I have to remind people that. Sure you could legalize, psyched dogs or decriminalize psychedelics, but are you integrating those substances into a burning house? Cause I mean, look at our healthcare system. Look at, I mean, just to say of our country in general. I've also given talks on like why the why people of color need our own intentional healing spaces away [00:27:00] from white folks.And for a lot of people, this is just common sense , obviously, we, you know, people don't wanna heal in the same places or with the same people who hurt them. And a lot of times when we do try to have complex conversations around race, whiteness gets in the way and detracts and sinners itself and makes everything about them.So a few years ago I gave a talk in Oakland, California. at the Women's Visionary Congress, this is in 2019. And so I was giving a talk about why p POC and digital healing spaces are necessary. And you know, I'm basically saying what I just said about how whiteness the tracks from our healing and all that.And it was a very powerful speech. I'm not saying that to brag, but I'm just I'm saying that to say like, I noticed people [00:28:00] had a very strong reaction to what I was saying. Like people did not, they were just like, Oh shit. Like, damn, you know, . And at first I initially, I told the some of the MCs at the event, I was like, I don't wanna do q and a, cuz I don't feel like dealing with any white nonsense.Right. And the person I'm seeing, there's a mix up and she took questions anyway. And so I was like, Okay, I'll, I'll answer one or two. And this white guy John Gilmore, I believe he's a, he's a board member at maps or donor maps, some rich white dude He basically says like, Oh, well what if I start a Whites only conference?Wouldn't that be racist? And I was like, Well, that's already how maps this conference is. So you wouldn't really be doing anything different than what you're already doing. And [00:29:00] if you want to compare POC and facial healing spaces to like whites only segregation in the us that's, that's on you. That's . And yeah, he thought he was being cute and he wasn't.He, there's actually a video of you wanna watch it, of this whole moment happening, But he felt real dumb after he said that. SoDe'Vannon: Honey, you opened the library on his ass. Mama RuPaul would be so proud of you. The library was open. So y'all, what she's talking about is like basically how, how did I learn this in college? Like it doesn't really, it's not gonna benefit us if individual parts are whole, but the sum total isn't whole. Kind of like that. So if, if a few of us are making it, but everybody else isn't making it, then we're all still fucked.OverallIfetayo: [00:30:00] Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: you know, But so like in the future, how I know. So, so psychedelics isn't gonna solve everything overnight, instantly. Is there, Can it benefit us getting further along as a.Ifetayo: Hm, mm-hmm. . I think that it can, but with a lot of caveats, I think, well there's this, okay, there's this notion in this psychedelic space, a lot of researchers, a lot of just advocates in general or over height, the benefits of psychedelics and totally under height, the risk associated with psychedelics.So I've been in meetings with people, I've been on panels with people who are like, Oh, psychedelics have a low risk profile. What does that mean? does it? Like, what does that mean? You know? There have [00:31:00] been plenty of people who've, who've been traumatized by using psychedelics. There have been people who killed themselves, or people who killed their families while using psyched.Right? So it's, it's kind of messed up to kind of present it as, oh, this, it's safe. The, the risks are low, or, Oh, it's super dangerous, like you're gonna die to do it. Like, we have to give people realistic information. And so that's why I say caveats. Psychedelics aren't for everyone. There are certain people who can't take it, whether they're pregnant, you know, they might be on a certain medication, they might have a certain disability where it's hard for them to take psychedelics.A lot of people, you know, in this country are poor. I grew up poor in the US and you know, my mom's a single parent of seven kids. She could not afford to take off a day to go do some mushrooms or go to a retreat. So those are [00:32:00] those things I just wanna acknowledge are real. But can psychedelics help people in general and with trauma and move our, move our culture forward?Some, I think, yeah, it does have that potential under the right conditions. Something that people say in the psychedelic and harm reduction space is set and setting, which is like kind of a harm reduction monster that people use or they're referring to the place you're in, the setting and the place you're in also in your mind and in life in general and who you're what to say that you should only use second of substances in a place where you're comfortable and with people you trust.And I think that also applies on a macro level too. Psychedelics have the potential to yes, move us forward create better mental health options for folks given the right set and setting. [00:33:00] If we don't have universal healthcare, how much forward is it gonna move us if psychedelic therapy's outta reach?For most folks, if psychedelic therapy's the only thing legalized and recreational use to psyched dust is still legal, then people are still going to be arrested. So I believe that we have to make the conditions right for psyched ups to have a positive impact because if not, it's just going to be, you know, done into our already existing circus. And I don't think that will necessarily make a lasting, impactful change.De'Vannon: right? So you're saying if, if you gonna do this shit, do this shit, write, know, realistically cover everybody and be sure everyone has access to it and dribble the shit around and henpeck at it.Ifetayo: Yeah.De'Vannon: [00:34:00] So, so I wanted to to echo, so, you know, when, when she says like, poc, that's like people of color, like, like that's what that the elder peopleIfetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: would tell me, like the stories of the things that white people would do to them when they were younger. Now these people were born in like, say like, teens, twenties, 19 teens, twenties, thirties, growing up in the south here in Louisiana. I got called a nigger once,Ifetayo: All right.De'Vannon: there were other, like, I got called like a, like an a or monkey by this white boy one time, you know, in school, you know, things like that.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: Didn't happen so much that I would say like, that cemented my perception of white people because I've also had a lot of white people open doors for me in my life, whereas the black people stood in my way. So I was like at a juxtaposition in a crossroads and not really understanding some of the things, you know, some of [00:35:00] the trauma that the elders still held onto.But now that I'm older, I get how hard it can be to really heal of some things. And I would tend to stick with you even if, if you don't want it to. And I never could get it, but I get it now and I don't hold that against them. And so they would tell us how they'd be walking to school because, no, the black people didn't have cars.You know, they didn't have backpacks cuz they took like strings to just tie the books together and the white people would zoom by them in their cars and run them into dishes and stuff like that, you know, and try to, you know, and just, you know, You know, just mean shit like that. That doesn't make any sense.You're already in a, in a, in a nice vehicle. They're on the street walking to the same place you're going, You're even not even gonna offer to, to r pick them up and take them. That's, that's not bad enough. You're gonna try to run them over on the way just for shits and giggles, and, and that sort of shit.And now these people are like in [00:36:00] elementary school, low grade schools when this is happening. And when they grew up into worse racism. And, and then this trickles down into people who, you know, into, even in my generation. And so this is why, you know, you know when, when my guest here says that black people don't need to be around white people sometimes when we heal, this is whyIfetayo: Yeah. Oh yeah, a hundred percent. And it's, I've been in like those racial justice trainings with white folks. And for me it's really frustrating when I have to witness a white person, like realize that black people are people for the first time. It's really frustrating. And I, and I know a lot of white people, even some black people will be like, Oh, well what's the big deal?Like, why can't you just, you know, be in this racial justice training together? And I'm like, It's no, like, this isn't, this to, for them is theory for us. It's our [00:37:00] lives. And so, you know, what you were just sharing about the elders in your family know, stuff like dealing with those races attached is something that I grew up with.You know, my mom was born in the fifties in North Georgia. and she also told me stories of, you know, the night riders or you know, white people shoot a or cops beating up family members for no reason. Even my grandma, my grandma will be 86 this year. She , Her memory is amazing. But she was telling my sister that when she was a kid, Yeah, white kids used to call the niggers too.And she's like, Yeah, we pulled our pants down at 'em . So we, I think we as black people have to realize that like, yeah, this trauma shit is real. It's in our parents, our grandparents, it's in us too. [00:38:00] And if that means, you know, letting your white friend know that, Hey, I wanna talk about this. I've had white people try to talk about, you know, mass incarceration with me or, and you know, other things that.Hit close to home to me. And I don't like talking to him about it because if it's not something you experience, you aren't gonna have the same perspective as I do. Right. Just like I don't have the same perspective as my dad is, you know, he's someone who's actually been in prison. I wasn't. So, I can only share it from my perspective, but a lot of people will use these topics like incarceration as just spotter for conversation and or to look cool.And I'm just, I'm, I don't, that's not why I do this. Yeah. And a and a lot of people will say that, you know, they're [00:39:00] against their war on drugs or they're against this, they're against that. And I think on an intellectual or academic level, a lot of folks are, But when it comes to. on the street. It's a lot different.So I, that's why I think it's so important for us as black people to have our own space. And other folks of color too, because we're at a different level when we talk about these things. We're like in the senior seminar course, the white kids are in the one on one freshman course when they talk about it. A lot of them think that they're on our level when it comes to talking about this stuff, but they're not. And even, you know, I know my organization called the POC Psyched Collective, but same goes for a lot of non-black people of color too. Some of them just, some of them are racist a lot. Some of them are more racist than the white rednecks I grew up with. [00:40:00] So, yeah.De'Vannon: Oh, those are those Mexicans for Trump and shit like that, and the damn gay Republicans and shit.Ifetayo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'd be like, Why are you so damn racist? Like, what is, where is this coming from? You know? But yeah, it's, it's a real thing, so,De'Vannon: Well, I think a lot of it gets back to what I was saying at the top of the show about how like the voices, you know, in my head, they mimic themselves as being my own, but they're not, you know, a kid isn't really just born racist. Somebody taught his little as that shit, you know, You know. But they haven't yet come to a point where they go, Maybe the elders in my family were wrong about a black person only being three fourths of a person.You know, They haven't reconciled their own voice yet, you know? Cause no logical person with a heart and a soul can look at, you know, things that happened in our country now and then in the history and [00:41:00] make the, make it logical. But when people's parents tell them that a black person is less than you, that Mexican person is less than you, that gay person is less than you, that gets ingrained in them.And it's, and I and I, I've studied hypnotherapy. I'm a licensed hypnotist. It is difficult. To upo, somebody's upbringing. You know those, that those voices out of their head. Now some people, some white people I know can't fucking stand their families. They're like, I can't racist sons of bitches. You know, I know some white people who, who have such white guilt, they're just like, God damn, and I was born the wrong raise.These white people ain't worth shit. And it stars my family up. They all burn in hell.Ifetayo: Hmm.De'Vannon: Who am I to argue with them? Know they family. I do.Ifetayo: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Yeah. And I think you know what you're saying [00:42:00] about the voices in your mind, like not always being you, but maybe mimicking you. Goes to show that a lot of this stuff, whether it be drug propaganda or white supremacy, takes a lifetime to unpack. You know, like a lot of times people, when they come to like an event I'm speaking at, they're like, Oh, well how can I get involved?I wanna do something. And I'm like, I, I'll tell people to slow down. I'm like, Just, y'all need to read first. , y'all need to read and learn first, because we all have that intern. Jaga, we all have biases against people who use drugs, especially people addicted, especially black drug users. And we also have internalized white supremacy, like black people do.We have internalized inferiority and white people. They have internalized superiority. And it, it kills me when I, you know, see why people who, they don't necessarily say this, but they act like they've done the work [00:43:00] on anti-racism and they're good. And it's like, no, this is a, this is a lifetime of work.And then some, you know, so you should never stop learningDe'Vannon: Knowledge is power. And as you're saying that, I was thinking about it, I was reading this report cuz I follow like the the decriminalization of the drugs in Oregon because I think that's one of the most miraculous and great. That's happening in my fucking lifetime, and I cannot wait to get there at the end of the month to show my ass.But one of these cops was whining because they were like, The power's been taken for us. The streets are just running rampant with drugs and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm all like, Bishop, you already, they're already running rampant with drugs. Stop being a drama queen. And what he's really whining about though, is his ability to be superior over people for having a chrome of dope or a half a tablet, half a Phoenix or whatever, and throwing a black boy in jail for one fucking pill, you know, for 15 [00:44:00] months or whatever.They, they can't do that to us anymore. So they're trying to act like, you know, the, the city's just lawless outta control, but really they hurt. They bud hurt, they hurt probably just cuz they can't dominate us and they ain't got the power no moreIfetayo: Yep. Yep. That's, that's facts. That's facts. And yeah. There's, there's so many like. Unfounded Narrows being pushed right now in a lot of major cities. Here in New York, it's the homelessness and the crime epidemic apparent, like quotes around that . But yeah, people there. I, so I worked on the campaign in Oregon.My old organization, Drug Policy Alliance funded that campaign. And so I was working the night that it got found or that the bow initiative got passed. And it was really crazy because being online and seeing people's reaction to it, [00:45:00] they were just like, what? Like people could not believe that it was real.And that was so fascinating to me because for a lot of folks, like my mom who's, who's 66, she never thought that she would be able to walk into a dispensary and buy weed. That was not the thing she thought about in the seventies, but she was my age. And now it's the thing in some places. So, yeah, it's, it's interesting and I think a lot of people are losing their shit over the fact that, yeah, they don't have power over us anymore.I mean, look at how many people reacted to the whole student loan forgiveness program that Biden in and out. People are mad. People are mad that black people have a chance at getting further in. That we have less barriers to go to college, that we have less barriers to get opportunities that makes people mad.And a lot of the progress that's hindered in this country is because of that. [00:46:00] Cuz white folks do not want us to have the same opportunities as them. That's why our public transit infrastructure in the US sucks. That's why people are okay with defunding public education because anything that benefits poor black people, , they don't care about, they're okay with increasing police budgets because that means there'll be more of them to keep us in check.De'Vannon: As the Lord said, amen and amen system. I mean it in the most non churchy way. But, but as the Lord said it, you know, in the Bible, you know, freely you have received, bitch freely give, I'm adding the bitch to it. Jesus didn't say that, but he probably thinking it. it, they, people are coming from a very, very bitter place when they bitter energy, whatever you wanna call it, negative space, LDL below, whoever.The shit ain't good when you have made it and you're gonna be particular about how the fuck somebody else makes it. So maybe you didn't get your [00:47:00] student loan forgiven, but I bet you somewhere in your life somebody gave you some shit you didn't really deserve and you took that shit, scooped it on up and I throwing off into the sunset and, and, you know, and ain't never even looked back.And you may not have even said thank you. And You know, so this is how people become hypocrites and stuff. The sort of stuff Jesus preach. Again, you may not think you being hypocritical, but the Lord remembers that time when, and even though you may have forgotten it, so the fuck what? I don't care my forgiven because I'm a 100% disabled veteran.I was praying, Lord, just wipe it all out for, you know, I don't care this, just let it go because I'm not a bitter broken bitch. And so I'm not sitting around here trying to find ways to be mad at people's progress. You know? Then half the politicians bitching. I love how the White House read them forIfetayo: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was funny.De'Vannon: you wanna, wanna complain about them getting this forgiven, but you got a few hundred thousand forgiven.Ifetayo: Yeah. Right, right. [00:48:00] Yeah,De'Vannon: 10,000, but you got half a million. Bitch, go set on your ass somewhere.Ifetayo: yeah,De'Vannon: have several seeds,Ifetayo: yeah. They're proud to be hypocrites. Like they're tol. It's like no moral compass. Just, and then the crazy thing is, is that they'll say they're Christians and it's like, and you know, it's funny, I didn't grow up Christian. I grew up in South Harris, so I was around a lot of Christians, but I didn't grow up Christian.And there's so many people who give Christians a bad name like that, who I'm just like, This is not what Jesus was about. like Jesus, Jesus was about. You know, like you were saying, giving freely, he fucked with sex workers. You know, he hung out with us gays. Like he, he was not about all this shit that they make him seem about, and he probably spoke some weed too, or did some shoes, I don't know.De'Vannon: Right. That's cause it's not written. No mean it didn't happen. There's a whole [00:49:00]30, the 31st, 30 years of his life isn't really, really recorded. After he ran away from his parents in the temple, he didn't really run away, but he was like, Y'all, I got shit to do. You know, So who fuck knows what he did. And so I think he experienced life personally. Yeah.I wanna talk about before we wrap it up, I wanna talk about some of the good things. So, so what have we talked about so far? Some of the stigma surrounding psychedelics, A lot about what your organization does because I want everyone to go to your website. I'm having my assistant add your website to my resources page.Ifetayo: Well, thank you.De'Vannon: yes indeed. Any time, my dear. Because I was inspired to go on a psychedelics journey when I watched you know how to change your mind on Netflix and the history of mental illnesses on pbs. I was watching how the veterans and everything like that who have been struggling with ptsd. I'm a veteran with ptsd, you know, all this psych drugs, they give us the VA to shit don't work, it just be having us like zombies.And I'm watching these documentaries. They did two or three MDMA trips and they haven't had the [00:50:00] ptsd, PTSD problems since. So I'm here for it for the veterans. I'm here for Joe Bidens trying to get the M D M. Legalize, even if it's just at the clinic level, bitch, I will take it because I have been locked up in the mental hospital for some of these veterans before I got four felonies and I'd probably been in the mental hospital about 4, 5, 10, 50, 11 times too.You, if, if MD a is what it'll take for some of my fellow veterans to stop imagining the square tiles on the floor moving and shit like that. The shit that I witnessed when I was in there and shitting all over the floor and whatnot. Bitch give him his goddamn M D M A now. What have you witnessed in your, in like, I know y'all don't give the drugs to people cuz you can't and stuff like that, but have you heard of any stories where somebody was this way and then they got better after doing the psychedelic therapy?You know, with, with a therapist or in a safe space, any positive tells, You can tell.Ifetayo: Yeah. Yeah. I'm happy to share a little about my [00:51:00] story psychedelics, but in general, you know, I've heard people so many stories of folks saying that psychedelics have helped them with body image issues. Depression, ptsd, anxiety, O c D all kinds of things. For me personally, I got into psychedelics when I was in college. I was really depressed my senior year. And I was dealing with suicidal thoughts. I felt just passively suicidal. And it was my senior year, so, you know, when you're a senior, like turn up, you know, everybody's trying to be that . And for me, the depression hit me hard, like really, really hard that year.And it was debilitating. And, you know, I was, I had been in therapy for some time and I got prescribed like, well be shrimp. And I decided not to [00:52:00] take it cuz I, I was a little scared, I was cautious. My mom's also like a herbalist and they get a homeopathic stuff, so she's like against all that stuff.And so that's how, that was my upbringing. You know, I have a lot of friends who, Take antidepressants and it works really well for them. So I'm not, I'm not knocking it. But for me, I was, I was scared. , they said it would take away my sex drive. I was like, Oh no. Hell nowSo, so it was kind of crazy looking back at it. So basically I had interned at the Drug Policy Alliance as a media intern. I started writing about my experience of my dad going to prison and being deported, and they invited me to their conference to speak. So I spoke my first time really speaking in an audience that big. I like broke down in tears.It was [00:53:00] really cathartic for me. And, but at the same time, I knew I was under all that, I was still depressed. So I went to this panel on like end of life. End of life anxiety and p and psychedelics. So they were talking about treating people with like terminal illnesses like cancer with L S D. And I was like, Huh, this is interesting.For some reason I related to it, so I was like, I'm gonna go and do some mushrooms. So I went back to school after the conference and I was talking to my friends cuz I knew they dabbled in psychedelic. I was like how do I do mushrooms, ? At that point I only tried alcohol and wheat. I was so sonner in college.I, I still am. And so they're like, take three and a half grams, maybe put in some peanut butter cuz they taste kind of nasty. And then they're, then they're like, yeah, [00:54:00] like go in the woods or something. Like go in nature. Oh yeah. Have a sitter too. So I got my, I got my friend to, to sit for me and I ate the three and a half grams of mushrooms and went on a walk in the woods on this nature trail.It's really beautiful, overwhelming, at the same time. Experience. It lasted about eight hours for me, and it felt like a jolt that I needed in that time, like being really depressed and suicidal. I felt like I had this jolt just being like, ah, you know, like, of like release, but also happiness and beauty.Like it was showing me the beauty of life, why we're here. Yeah, it just, it, it just showed me a different side of life. It reminded me of my childhood imagination. Like we were in the woods and like the, the trees were glistening. The. The plants were talking [00:55:00] like, it, it just felt very surreal. I was, I was kind of freaking out.I was like, This is too much. So me and my friend, she took me back to my room and I felt a little bit better there. I was like, less freaked out. But yeah, it, it helped me see myself in a different context. When you are depressed, you're so used to a certain narrative that you have about yourself. It could be, Oh, I'm stupid, I'm dumb, I'm worthless, blah, blah, blah. when you take mushrooms or some other psychedelic, maybe you're seeing yourself from a, like, like, you're basically seeing yourself from a different person's perspective, like almost from the outside. And it helps you have a lot more compassion for yourself. Like you see yourself as a person, not as like,You. So I think that can be helpful [00:56:00] for anyone who's stuck in a rut, whether it be depression whether it be, you know, just bad habits that you've been trying to break for a long time. Yeah, and it, I mean, and the most important thing was that it just made me feel really happy. Like, I was laughing, like I never laughed before like giggling like a baby, you know?And that was really important because when you're depressed and down, your body forgets what it's like to laugh, like. And when you laugh like that, it's like, whoa. Like that feeling is so amazing. And when you're on Trus, you, I mean, for me at least, I laugh, I laugh a lot. things could be really, really funny.You could also go from crying to laughing, like in five seconds, , just like that. But I think that's beautiful too because that's how life can be. You know, things can be good. One minute and boom, things can change and you have to adjust and you have to [00:57:00] keep going and learn how to adapt with all those things.And for me, my, that's kind of what my work is about. You know, we're all adapting, we're all changing, but we can also use these substances as tools to change our worlds and help people like, help people with disabilities, help people who, you know, are born without certain privileges. A better place for them.De'Vannon: See the Lord is giving us everything we need right outside nature and how, how dare the white man tried to, to tell us something's wrong with these things that just grow naturally. Shrooms and weed and the, the fucking mold on the wheat that they make the fucking l s d out of and stuff like that. It's all line naturality.It's organic nun gmo, gmo, all of that. I'm sorry. You went through all those things. You went through being depressed during, during what's [00:58:00] so supposed to be such a happy time, but I'm glad you got your breakthrough. Yes. From those documentaries I watched, it seems like they were suggesting that these psychedelics have the power to rewrite like the, the neuro connectivity of the brain.So like, like you're saying, when you get, when you get sad and you get stuck in that ruck rut where you're teaching, where your mind learns how to be sad, and then these psyched dealers can remind your mind what it's like to be happy and rewire the way you process information and process life. So it can give you a whole new framework to work from. So,Ifetayo: Mm-hmm.De'Vannon: and I didn't really get into the types of psychedelics because I was watching like, I think on your YouTube channel of, I think it's in the intro video on there, you had this panel of people like y'all, y'all if Fatal, Ifta loves her panels, he loves a panel.Ifetayo: You'reDe'Vannon: It is good to have all those perspectives.But the [00:59:00] one you had, they were going over all the different psychedelics and I knew about the Melin and the, the celli and the ganja, you know, and all that. But then they started going down. He was like, But it's like, you know, designer, now you have all these different wands. And it's like, so I was like, Oh shit, I don'tIfetayo: Yeah.De'Vannon: but y'all go to the website to learn more about the different types of psyched dials. Listen to their, the information or YouTube channel she mentioned like dismantling the patriarchy. There's information and in other shows she's gone on, on her website that mentions. That, that you can access through the website that I would put in the show notes. Grief loss to death and harm reduction, things like that. You know, that you mentioned all of these are potential benefits for psychedelics when it's done right and in the right setting. I'm so happy that it's coming back around cuz all this Ritalin and shit, they got kids on calling them adhd, whatever the fuck that is.You know, all this medicine that they've had us hopped up [01:00:00] on, all it is is legal drugs. We should be able to have our shit, not just what they tell us is okay because they haven't so,So I'm gonna let you have the last word. Say whatever is you want to.Ifetayo: Oh man, you . I, I'll just say you've been an amazing host. I, I was not expecting this. You're awesome. You've like, I do a lot of podcasts, interviews and you've been the most fun. So IDe'Vannon: Well, damn. Thank you. Thank, I'll take, I'll take allIfetayo: Yes. Keep doing. You Don't change. And thank you to all your listeners. Check us out www.pocpc.org. Thank you for having me.De'Vannon: Absolutely. Thank you very much. Fat Tayo. Thank y'all so [01:01:00] much for listening and we'll see you next time on the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast and tell them don't listen to nobody but show self.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be all right. 

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #75: A Historical + Modern View Of Marijuana, Legislating Morality & How Grassroots Organizations Impact Federal Policy, With Emily Dufton, Author, Podcast Host & Drug Historian

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 27, 2022 53:21


INTRODUCTION: Emily Dufton“An oracle ofknowledge on all things marijuana” - BostonHeraldI'm a drug historian and writer based near Washington,D.C. I received my BA from New York University and earned my Ph.D. in AmericanStudies from George Washington University. My first book, Grass Roots: The Rise and Fall and Rise of Marijuana inAmerica, traced over 50 years of cannabis activism and wasnamed one of “The8 Best Weed Books to Read Right Now” by RollingStone and one of “The Top 5Cannabis Books to Have In Your Personal Library” by 10buds.com.Since its publication,I've become a commentator on America's changing cannabisscene. I've appeared on CNN,the History Channel andNPR's BackStory with the American History Guys, and my writing has been featured on TIME, CNN,SmithsonianMagazine, and the WashingtonPost. I'm currentlyworking on my second book, Addiction,Inc.: Medication-Assisted Treatment and the War on Drugs (under contractwith the University of Chicago Press). It's the history of the development andcommercialization of the opioid addiction medication industry. In 2021 I won a LukasWork-in-Progress Award to help finance its writing. In 2022 I won a Robert B. SilversGrant. I'm deeply grateful for all the support.I'm also a podcasthost on the NewBooks Network, where I interview authors on new books about drugs,addiction and recovery. I live in the People's Republic of TakomaPark, Maryland, with my husband Dickson Mercerand our two children.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):  ·      A Look At The History Of Marijuana ·      Emily's Halloween Candy Advice·      De'Vannon's Experience With Hallucinogenics·      Great Grassroots Advice For Marijuana/Drug Activists ·      President Joe Biden's Major Moves For Marijuana·      The Inappropriate Relationship Between - Church + Media + Government·      Political Influences And Implications On Drugs·      The Balance Between Parents Rights And Kids Rights·      How Grassroots Organizations Impact Federal Policy·      Why We Shouldn't Assume Decriminalization Is Here To Stay  CONNECT WITH EMILY: Website: https://www.emilydufton.com/Grass Roots: https://www.emilydufton.com/grass-rootsLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3ganBPgFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/emily.duftonInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/author_emily_dufton/Twitter: https://twitter.com/emily_duftonMedium: https://medium.com/@ebdufton   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Emily Dufton is an author, podcast host, and a drug historian who has blessed the world with a phenomenal book, which is entitled Grass Roots. The rise and fall and rise of marijuana in America. This book offers phenomenal advice for marijuana slash drug activists and encourages us to not arrest on our laurels, assuming that drug decriminalization is here to stay.Now, I fell in love with Ms. Emily when I discovered her while [00:01:00] listening to the, the. To The ReidOut podcast hosted by the great Joy-Ann Reid over on msnbc, and it was a surreal delight to sit down and talk with Emily about what's going on with drugs right now, as well as what was going on with drugs back then.Also, would like everyone to please check out our YouTube channel because for this very special episode, Emily and I have dawned our Halloween costumes. She's a hot dog, and I'm Fred Flintstone, and you have got to check them out. Have a super safe Halloween everyone.Hello and happy Halloween everyone, and welcome to this very special edition of The Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. I wish you all a very, very spooky weekend. I have with me the great. Multi talented, multifaceted, delicious, and nutritious. Emily din, How are you, girl? Emily: Oh my God, I'm feeling delicious and nutritious.Thank [00:02:00] you. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm De'Vannon: so fucking lely. Like you look delicious and nutritious. So you're dressed as a hot dog. I am. So I'm curious and you told me, Previously that you're a hot dog every year, and so I've been wondering, so some years, are you like a vegan hot dog another year?You're like a Polish sausage. You switch up the bond, like how exactly does it go? Emily: Oh, the hot dog is in the eye of the beholder. I, that's how it is. I think, you know, I live in Tacoma Park, Maryland. It's known as the Berkeley of the East. I think many people see me as a tofu dog, as a beyond beyond.Hot dog. Others as DC adjacent, you know, were like, I could be a half smoke. I could be, I'm just I just wear this because it's a costume I found on the side of the street in Capitol Hill in DC where I was living at the time, and I thought, [00:03:00] This is amazing. Someone is just giving away a hot dog costume.I'm going to give it a home and I'm going to be a hot dog every year from now until it literally falls apart. And so that's why I'm a hot dog every year. De'Vannon: looks brand new. I love it. Emily: Thank you. It gets washed from time to time. De'Vannon: from time. Good time. Look, I love me a good wier girl. So , Emily: I could be, I could be the wier of your dreams.Who knows? Let's see. We can put the, the top up for a minute. See you. De'Vannon: It's great. That is one. Okay. All right. There y'all. So . So Emily is an author and a drug historian. She holds a PhD in American Studies from George Washington University. She is the author of a fabulous book called Grassroots, the Rise and Fall and Rise of Marijuana in America.Has to do with how, how, how, how, [00:04:00] how earnest hippies, frightened parents suffering patients and other ordinary Americans went to war over the marijuana. It was a little mm-hmm. description I had of that. Before we go much further, I wanna take a moment to give a shout out to Ms. Joy and re over at the readout on msnbc, because that is how I discovered.Oh wow. . I saw you on her podcast and then I heard what you had to say about your grassroots book, and then I fell in love with you and when I built up the courage and got, got, got more bodies of works under my belt, I sent you a message, you know, hoping and praying that you would respond and you did.And so, Emily: Paul touch my heart. I'm so happy to be here. And honestly, like I The idea that, that, oh, you would be at all nervous to talk to me, makes me just like ache a little bit on the inside. I'm so happy to talk to you and this is such an honor for me to [00:05:00] be here. We are. You wrote a book, We Are equals, We know, We know what it is to go into the, the pain cave of writing and, and try to create something intelligible and lengthy about complicated subjects.You know, so writer to writer, you and I are, we are. Eye to eye. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. De'Vannon: The sausage and so, So I'm like a glittery version of Fred Flinstone because, As far as I'm concerned, we all know what Fred Freestone and Barney Rubble were really doing over in Bed Rock, Honey and Emily: Rock. I mean, come on.Yeah, it was right inDe'Vannon: Barney Rubs a total bottom. I know. It . So, So in your own words, I've given like my take on, is there anything you'd like to say about yourself, your own personal history or anything? Emily: Gosh. [00:06:00] Like, like about writing grassroots or about like what? Like about me as a human being. De'Vannon: Anything about you at all.Your favorite color, Favorite place you've traveled. We're gonna get into grassroots right after you. Tell us whatever you'd like to say. Just about yourself. Oh my at all since I've already given a little history, so you don't have to Oh, Emily: lovely. I'm a Piy, Sun Sagittarius, Rising Pisces Moon. I have two children a boy who's six and a little girl who's almost three.I'm working on my second book right now, which is about the history of medication assisted treatment for opioid use disorder, and I won a couple grants to fund the work, and it's been super awesome. And hopefully I'm gonna go to Switzerland either at the end of this year or the beginning of next year to compare addiction treatment programs over there with America's treatments.So those are, I think by far the most pertinent facts about me that everyone should, [00:07:00] should know. .De'Vannon: I think those are pretty damn good and relevant facts. the, the, the resurgence of healing with the drugs. Look, I just got back from Portland, Oregon dealing shrooms. And sell. So that is a cell aside, but, and what the fuck else I did?Mdm a I had never been shrooms before in my life and since I'm a veteran who suffers from ptsd, O C D and you know, all of these things and I saw on Netflix and the How to Change Your Mind documentary on PBS history of Mil illness. Documentary, how they've been using these hallucinogenics to help veterans.And I thought, Okay, I'm not gonna wait for this to be approved. I'm gonna fly my happy ass up here and do these shrooms. Man, it took seven grams for me to like fill anything. And apparently that's like a lot. And wow. I don't know, apparently besides the Emily: social work. Oh, that context. Yeah. So you did like an official, like, like clinical trial?It De'Vannon: wasn't a trial I paid for this. I [00:08:00] found a social worker who was willing to to do it in a psychiatric setting. Uhhuh, he feel like his woods are like an hour north of Portland into his cabin in the woods. So that, cuz he was like insistent that the environment be like, Right. And so it was like a guided assistant thing.It was, it was clinical, but I paid for it. I wasn't, I didn't wait for a trial Emily: to come. Totally, totally understood. That's awesome. How was it? Was it a good experience?De'Vannon: It follows me, so in a good way. So like if I smoke weed, it does not have an effect on me. I've tried different strands, different states, different times.I used to sell the hell out of it back in my drug dealing days, but I never fool with it too much. I used to sell shrooms. I never did 'em either. But I have discovered that if I do like a CBD gummy, I will be sitting around looking like EE from South Park. I feel that. But, so the, the C B D [00:09:00] does the same thing that the MDM A and the shrooms did.It quiet hit my mind. So I was expecting to have one of those like, really jerky experiences like I saw in the documentary, but that did not happen for me at all because my mind is always like this with the OCD and the PTSD and everything. Mm-hmm. . So for me, what those, what those hallucinogenics did was it just neutralized.And so I was just like, still just silent, quiet. And so I have found things that I used to, that I used to have anxiety over. I don't anymore. And so basically that peace, it, it attached itself to me in those, in that state of mind. Emily: I love that. So, so quieted your minds downed. How long did the quietness.De'Vannon: It's ongoing. So I was, while the drugs had their effect on me, okay, on this room, you know, the trees started to like move and the prints, you know, the pattern in the carpet started [00:10:00] dancing and doing his own thing and whatnot. So that was kind of freaky. But once that all settled down, , you know, you know, So it's not like it was, I, I have found, this has been like maybe three weeks ago that I was in Portland.It hasn't changed. You know, I still feel peace. It's like, and I experienced the same thing when I started experiment, the CBD gummies, which has only been like maybe two or three months ago. Mm-hmm. That I discovered that these gummies will have an impact on me. That's interesting. It's like, it's, it's a permanent thing with me.Emily: Wow. And have you had any kind of I don't know, like sessions or counseling or anything to kind of talk about like, But you know, sort of digesting the effects of it or like, maybe I don't even, I don't even know what the word is, but have, have you communicated at all with the guy who led the session since he, De'Vannon: He was, he is open to that and he wanted to schedule a follow up, but [00:11:00] I, and I can reach out to him if I want to, Emily, but I, I was ready, you know, like writing my blog and my books in the show and I see a, a social worker every week anyway.I see a licensed family marriage, the. A couple of times a month for me and my boyfriend, and then I see a hypno therapist once a month. And so I'm always professing and manifesting the change that I want. I went into it already. I didn't really embody to do too much handholding, and I'm all like, I'm ready to let this shit go.Like we talk about it, but it's already done . Emily: That's great. And this is the thing that allowed you to do that. Like you're just like, I just need that final push to get it out. Right. I love that there's a guy. Oh yeah. Sorry. Keep going. De'Vannon: You go, You're the guest girl. Oh, Emily: no. I'm just saying there's someone so I live right outside of DC in Tacoma Park, Maryland, and which I think I've said already but.There's this doctor who just moved here and [00:12:00] started a practice where he's doing exactly that. He's using Ketamine though. And so he's doing these like lead ketamine therapy sessions. And then afterwards he offers sessions to, I'm trying to remember like the verb he used. It wasn't like aggregate, but it was like to sort of like digest the experience.So you have this experience with ketamine that will hopefully release in the patient, the same kind of things that released in your experience. And then he would kind of provide the counseling or the, the therapy sessions to help sort of bring, make, make manifest the effects. And I thought, Oh my God, like, here it is.It's, it's, it's here. You know, like sort of this pro, this ability to access these drugs in a therapeutic. You know, private, like obviously like , you know, industrial way, but it's here. And God, that is like 10 years ago. I think experiences like yours are like the one that this doctor is offering would've been like [00:13:00] unimaginable.And yet now they're here and they're moving into all these communities. You know, it's not just Portland, Oregon, it's like here in, right outside of DC it's everywhere. And that to me is a totally fascinating aspect of like drug policy in the United States. It's wild. Totally. De'Vannon: I'm so happy to have it here too.But as you warn in your book grassroots that we're about to get into you know, these things tend to come and. At times. Yeah. Because this wasn't the first time that we were on the border of finding therapeutic uses for drugs before the drug war on drugs. Shut it down. Right. And so we're happy to have it back.And towards the end of the interview, I was most intrigued with the, the six lessons that you have for grassroots advocate for people at the end. And so I really gotta let you give that advice because I really feel like people need to hear that because people. Are feeling really grass rooty these days.It'll be . Emily: That's true. ,De'Vannon: it would be great for them to to to hear, hear [00:14:00] your advice so that they can be helped. Emily: I had to go get my copy. I haven't looked at that in a while. That's right. I forgot. I had like six little lessons in the back. Yeah. The one I remember, the Yes. Make your argument as sympathetic as possible was lesson one.Mm-hmm. . Because the more you center like a really sympathetic identity in the middle of your campaign, the more likely people are to. Feel bad for you and generate empathic warmth and support, right? Which is why you always see like puppies, like with their ribs exposed cuz they're starving in the rain, chained to a box and you're like, Please take my money to save the puppy.Lesson two. It's all about the money, which is exactly what we were talking about. Money buys influence. Lesson three, Be prepared to watch your progress disappear. Lesson four, don't rely too heavily on the White House. Lesson five, Respect your opposition and lesson six, keep a sense of perspective.Wow. I forgot I wrote these. That's so interesting. Yeah, [00:15:00] like, you know what's, Sorry, De'Vannon: keep going. No saying. So. We'll talk about those towards the end, cuz I thought those would be cute. Okay. So you can just kind of like, you know, peruse over that while we're going through. And and then of course people go by the books.So if you're a grassroots person and you wanna figure out. How to escape some pitfalls and things like that. I think this is a really good book and if you wanna have insight cause we're all also passionate about this, you know, this resurgence and everything. But I think that your book, you know, is like so evergreen, you know, in the, in the sense that, you know, it's an ongoing battle in this country because as you say, it's the rise, the fall, the rise, you know, it goes back and forth.There's no reason for us to be so arrogant as to assume that it can't fall again, because as you lay out in the book, every time we have. Arise for decriminalization. There's an opposing force that wants to fight that. Right. And so, and it was no different then. It's the same way now. So you wanted to give a warning though, for Halloween candy.I [00:16:00] wanted to be sure that we have time for that, because that was something you specifically requested. And so tell us your, this is, this is Emily's warning about this Halloween came to y'all. Oh Emily: my God. It's less of warning and just more of like a. I, I just every year, Well, this year in particular, I feel like there have been a lot of news stories about the rainbow colored fentanyl that apparently is going to show up in children's Halloween staes nationwide.And I love it because like, it just goes to show how. Drugs. The concept of drugs, right? When we talk about drugs, we're never just talking about drugs, right? We're always talking about larger issues and larger questions and larger ideas. And I feel like this, like the new fear of 2022, Halloween, 2022 of Fentanyl being dispersed widely in like Halloween candy is just, it's a really convenient vehicle for like political mud slinging, right?And. [00:17:00] You know, so the right can mud sling at the left by saying, Oh, it's the liberal's open border policies that is allowing Mexican cartels to funnel this rainbow colored fentanyl across the borders. And now it's gonna, now my kid's gonna eat it thinking it's a sweet tart and die. So that's how, like the right is mudslinging the left and then the left mud slings the right in return by saying, right.You're so stupid. No drug dealer is going to give away drugs for free. That is not how drug dealing works. . So there's just this and like, you know, so whenever we're talking about drugs, we're always talking about so much more than just drugs. Like there, like the concept of drugs is weighted with all of these other topics that we like, press upon it.And it becomes something that's like, kind of like a football, right? It's just always being thrown back and forth, you know? People are always going to use the concept of drugs or the concept of punishment or the concept of treatment as a political vehicle to achieve [00:18:00] other ends, right? Whether those are financial or moral or law enforcement, whatever.But I just feel like the Halloween candy saga that we go through every year is like kind of a good sort of visual entry point on to this topic that like, Drugs are always much more than just drugs, right? There are ways for us to discuss as Americans and as human beings, concepts that are obviously like much more complicated and oftentimes more complex than just like fentanyl or pot or whatever else itself.So I guess that's like my opening concept for conversation . De'Vannon: Yes, as a former drug dealer, I can attest to what Mr. Mrs. Dustin is saying is true. We don't to run around giving away drugs for free honey, especially not to little children who don't have money to come back and buy any once they get addicted.That's . Emily: It's, it is a profoundly bad marketing plan. No one [00:19:00] benefits from it. No one benefits . De'Vannon: But you know, just like, you know, as you state in your book You know, the fear mongering, you know, the fear mongering is like a big deal coming from the left. And so, I mean, coming from the right and so Emily: and sometimes the De'Vannon: left , it can, it can, mm-hmm.it pains me to say, but it's just so true. You know, Emily: sometimes we have to be honest about our own, you know, . De'Vannon: You know what? I don't, I don't, I don't want, I don't want a political party. I just wanna be like me. I just wanna be like me. I know. Whatever makes free to be you and me. What do you think about what Biden did though with the rolling back the the, the, the legal, the, the cases against people with the marijuana charges?Emily: I mean, it was really interesting, right? It was kind of came out in nowhere, right? He hadn't talked [00:20:00] much about. Marijuana policy at all on the campaign trail or during these first two years? I remember Kamala Harris during the Vice presidential debate was the very first presidential or vice presidential candidate to ever say during a debate, like, Yes, I support decriminalization.And she said that. So Kamala mentioned it, but like Biden never did. So he comes out and he makes this announcement and. Like it's immediate effect is going to be relatively small because the only marijuana convictions he's allowed to overturn are ones that he can control and he can only control federal convictions for possession.And that's not the, like that many it's about 6,500 nationally and it's, I don't know the number. No one would gave it. No one would give it. But it's also convictions for possession in DC because DC is federal. So that actually, that number might be more considerable than 6,500, but like I have not seen [00:21:00] a news outlet give it yet.But anyway, like that's pretty small compared to the millions of people who have been arrested. It's kind of a drop in the bucket. But what he also said was he was going to talk to eight, the Department of Health and HHS Health and Human. Services. He's going to talk to the FDA and he is going to talk to the DEA for the three federal agencies in charge of drug policy and talk about, and he wanted to talk about descheduling cannabis.So right now, pot is a schedule one drug and it's been a Schedule one drug since 1970. And, Being schedule one, that means that the federal government considers it to have no medical utility and a high risk for abuse, which is of course very silly. Since 1996, it became medical marijuana. So of course it has some medical utilities.Schedule one placement has been kind of nuts for at least since 1996. [00:22:00] He wants to talk about descheduling it, taking it outta the schedules completely. And if you deschedule a. That means it can become a legitimate legal marketplace item like cigarettes or alcohol. It could become a commercial product, and that is a really big decision.It's already kind of becoming a commercial product, but those industries are like very cottage still. Like there is a huge medical marijuana industry and there is a growing recreational cannabis industry, but there's still like, In the span of things, right, Like along the spectrum of, of products, it's still fairly small.So to deschedule it completely and turn it into a commercial product that would transform the cannabis industry in the United States and ultimately worldwide. So it's a huge decision. It's a huge, it's this, this the beginning of a huge conversation. So like right [00:23:00] after he made that announcement it was right before last weekend.People were like, I didn't really know what to make of it, honestly. But the more I've read, like things on Twitter from people I respect and some articles, the more I realize he's launching like a pretty huge conversation. And now would be the time for activists who are interested in creating, as, you know, equitable and kind.Fundamentally good natured and industry as possible, like now would be the time for them to really get involved because, you know, conversations about, about descheduling are happening and those are, those are important. And you know, the time to influence the marketplaces now cuz it's starting to take shape, which is crazy.I mean, it's like the same thing we were talking about before where like now you can go someplace and have like ketamine treatment, like these things are available. So it's time to figure out what, like we actually want the industry to look. De'Vannon: [00:24:00] Hell yeah. Something to tap into that energy and push it forward.I feel you on that. So, so, so in your book, you, you take us from like prohibition back in the first part of the last century, you know, all the way up to the day and I thought it was very artfully done. So I wanted to read a little excerpt about about the way. Marijuana was viewed back then from way back in 1917 from, from your book, if I may.And so those said, the 1917 report from the Treasury Department noted that in Texas only Mexicans and sometimes Negroes and lower class whites smoked the marijuana for pleasure and warned that that drug crazed minorities could harm or assault upper class white women. I felt like this, you know, that sort of thinking still informs policy today and I felt like when movies like The Terrible [00:25:00]Truth and Reefer Madness, which you mentioned, the book came out, I felt like that was like media's way of locking arms with the government and echoing what they're saying.And you don't really get into too religion deeply. But I feel like the church also. Touched and agreed. Yes. Emily: So, so the church was responsible for paying for the production of the movie Reef for Madness. I don't which church it, it was, I don't remember, but it was funded by Evangelical Christians. There you go.There's your connection. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: And see, I don't know, like, I, I hate the fact that the church. I would've rather the church stand up and say, You know what? It's not for the government to enforce morality because God is not forced. He's always gave the children of Israel a choice. He never came down here and mandated things in the way that we're trying to mandate them.So why don't we back off and leave this whole morality [00:26:00] thing to the church instead? The church was like, Well, we like to control people. The government likes to control people, so why don't we see if we can control them all together? Hmm. So I Emily: collaborate. Oh my God, it's so true. And it's been so powerful, like for so long, for so long.But it's true, like can you legislate morality? I mean, like, that's just this eternal question and you know, you really, you really can't, you can't punish someone until they're good. It just doesn't work that way. You. De'Vannon: No, nobody responds to that. You know, our children don't. And I love that your kids are like, pretty much the same age as my two kids, which happen to be like Maine Coon mixed cats.You know, My oldest boys about is about to be six in March, and then my girl is threeOh, Emily: we have babies the same age. That's so funny. That's crazy. Wild. But it's true, like you can't make them be good through [00:27:00] fear or punishment like ever. Ever and . And then it just always makes things worse. It always makes things worse. And that's why like, I mean, that's why it's so hard oftentimes to have like rational discussions about things like drugs or religion because like people just get too emotionally involved and you kind of think like, you're gonna, you're gonna believe my way or I'm going to hurt you.Like I'm going to defend this to the point of violence. And it's just like, that's why I , some people get mad at me. Grassroots because they felt like I didn't take a firm enough stand, you know, either way. And some people also like seem to have a really hard, a hard, they seem to have some difficulty with differentiating between smoking pot and writing about pot as like a historical phenomenon.So like a lot of people just like make these really dumb jokes, like yeah, I bet you're using a lot. Grass when you're writing grassroots or whatever. And I was like, No. I was writing like a [00:28:00] deeply researched, like historical book based off of my PhD dissertation. Like, no, I wasn't high the whole time. Like, that's ridiculous.But people were upset with me because I wasn't taking firm enough stand. Like I wasn't coming out like very strongly as an activist for legalization or, or alternatively against it. I didn't make my, my political position clear enough. And I don't know if. Like in the same way you're saying like, Well who should legislate morality?You know, in the same way, I don't feel like history books necessarily have to be legislating morality, right? Like I don't feel like I needed to tell people what to believe. I just wanted to tell them what happened and how we got here. So that as things move forward and as we continue to watch this really like unique historical period evolve, we'll be more prepared to understand.The potential downsides that might occur or the potential benefits that might occur, and like try to maybe guide the process [00:29:00] more toward the benefits, like rather than the downsides. So it's, you know, I do feel like there's a real need to understand drugs in like a non-emotional, non hot take, non, like just understanding them as like a historical artifact where.Certain things have happened from 1917 to today to create the world we live in, and we should probably understand how we got here. And so I wrote a book about it, , and now we're talking about it. All right, , De'Vannon: just bring it full circle. I love it. And you're right, your book is very energetically neutral. It is very energetically like neutral.Yeah, I did pick up on that. And you know, most of you know historians, they just tell what happened and so I, you know, I was interviewing somebody else and I was, and he had gotten some reviews that kind of roughed his feathers and I was telling him, You know what, I'll tell you the same thing. Like Amazon and all these different book places don't.Perform mental health test [00:30:00] on people who go in there and leave reviews . So there's no tell on what you're gonna get, so Emily: please gimme the most recent report from your therapist before you post on this review. . Oh my God. The best review I got was someone was really mad that I was mean to Nancy Reagan, and they were like, it's not like she committed tax fraud.Nancy Reagan's not that bad. And I was like, Is that your bar? Like tax fraud? Or? So that was everyone else's reviews on Amazon are almost all from my friends, so those are all nice that Perfect. They're all the friends. I ask like, Please leave an Amazon review for my book. Thank you. De'Vannon: Hey, nothing like that inner circle chosen family, baby.Oh baby. That person commented on the tax fraud, though, probably commits tax fraud and they were projecting that. Oh my Emily: god. 100%. De'Vannon: Yeah. . So I wanted to talk about Atlanta 1976 because. [00:31:00] I felt like Miss, Miss Marsha Sard, and I have to admit when I read that name immediately, Andrew DeMar Shinard from Rent from the MusicalOh my God. It came to my mind and I had to go look it up. I was like, Is there a relation here today, tomorrow for me? What's going on ? So, but there is no relation. So it's, it's Emily: inside a gay boy. No, I can't unsee it. I can't unsee it. De'Vannon: and Atlanta especially. Cause my boyfriend is from Atlanta, you know, from that area.And so Hills, well todo neighborhood. Marsha is you know, she's walks into like her teens having this party and everyone's. you know, paring it up. Her and her husband go out fine, like the weed butts and everything like that. And, and then she goes run snitch to all the other parents because of course there was other teenage there.And we all know [00:32:00] snitches get stitches, y'all. And so what I documented was the parents' reactions usually that the parents' reactions ran the gamut from shock, confusion, indignation, concern, denial, and hostility. Now in the book, you, you know, this woman is like, Slated to be a Democrat. Mm-hmm. . And so that really, really shocked me.And and her, her emotions. I don't feel like those emotions have changed over the years. I feel like that's the same way people react to Dave. Would you agree? Emily: Yeah, I think, I think you're onto something there. Yeah. Like it, it was her, her politics are really interesting. So Keith, she goes by Keith, which again is kind of.You have to get, wrap your head around this woman, this like mom of three who goes by Keith. And then it's hard cuz I'm also writing about Keith Strop, the founder of Normal, the National Organization for the reform of marijuana laws, which are like, you know, going gangbusters at this time. [00:33:00]So there's a lot of Keith's, you know, so keep the Keiths straight in your mind.But so Keith Shart is this mom She has a PhD in British literature. She's not teaching, but her husband is at Emory, and so she's like home with these kids. So like I see her as being really smart. probably pretty bored, right? Being home with kids, like when you have a PhD and you're clearly like a life of the mind kind of person.Being home with little kids can be like really boring and you can have like maybe a lot of leftover energy. And so she throws this like backyard birthday party for her 13 year old daughter. And like the kids are acting weird and she's kind of freaking out and she sees like they're up in their bedroom, like looking out in the backyard, her and her husband and they see the lighters flicker in the bushes, but they assume it's cigarettes.But the kids are like really acting funny. And so once everybody leaves, they go into the backyard and they're searching around and they [00:34:00] find. Roaches. And they also find like, like alcohol containers, right? So the kids aren't just smoke smoking pot, they're, they're drinking too. , The scandal, the scandal 13, I mean 13 is young.Like for, like, I was not, I was not playing those games at 13, but I understand that my experience is not the experience of everyone. And, and now I'm like, as a mom, I'm kind of like, Oh, if I caught Henry doing that, like I'd be probably be pretty pissed. But but anyway, so she. She goes into like hardcore activist mode, like right away, you know, she was like, Boom.And she is buoyed by the concepts of. Second wave feminism that are like really prominent at the time where you do consciousness raising groups and you get together with people who are sharing your same experience and you talk about it, right? Because the personal is political and you try to figure out a way to change society for the better.Like that is very much like the kind of social [00:35:00] milu that shoe hard is coming from in, in 76 in Atlanta. Because remember, like Atlanta's pretty liberal at this time. Like Jimmy Carter is governor and he is running for president. You know, like it's the bicentennial. Everybody's like super patriotic, right?It's an interesting time. So she gets together with all the other parents and she's like, Our kids are smoking pot. This seems to be an issue like this. This. This is, this is something we should probably pay attention to. And she kind of blames it on the fact that for the past three years, more and more states had steadily been decriminalizing marijuana possession.So it started in Oregon in 73, but by 76, I think there were probably like,Probably like six, five or six states by that point that had decriminalized, right? Georgia wasn't one of them, but others did. And so there's this burgeoning drug paraphernalia industry, like basically just like today, this was happening in the mid, the early [00:36:00] 1970s where like. A semi-legal cannabis marketplace was taking shape in America.And when a marketplace builds and expands, more people tend to utilize it. So more people were using pot, more people were smoking pot, and then it was trickling down and it was getting to kids. So like Keith Shoe hard's, daughter 13 found some pot and was smoking it at her birthday party. And like that made shard really upset.So even though she was a Democrat and she was a liberal, She was really opposed to what the liberal agenda had pushed, which was decriminalization. So she starts basically a nationwide grassroots army of parents to overturn decriminalization laws and kind of stop the burgeoning paraphernalia industry.And it just so happens that in 1984 years later, when Ronald Reagan gets elected, he takes their concept. Nationalizes [00:37:00] it further and then turns it into federal policy. So it was the parent movement that gave us basically the entire concept of just say no. So yeah, the 1980s were birthed in the 1970s in Atlanta, Georgia in 1976.De'Vannon: Right. And right. Thank you for breaking that down so beautifully. And I, and I felt like from, from the way that you wrote, you really, really wanted people to know the importance that small community groups like this actually, the impact that they have on federal policy, not as, so that we don't undervalue this or underestimate.Totally. Emily: And so it's amazing. Well, when you tap into a zeitgeist like that, like, like what, what Shoe hard and other people in Atlanta tapped into was something that And ended up people were feeling nationwide. And that's the exact same thing that was happening with medical marijuana laws. And it's the exact same thing that's happening with legalization laws now.I mean, people are tapping into like it's a zeitgeist straight now. You know? Like more like I think Maryland, where I live is, I think we're [00:38:00] voting to legalize this. I think we're voting to legalize next month. Like it's movement, baby. It's movement. De'Vannon: May the force be with you? May Emily: the force be, I think it'll pass pretty easily.I think it'll pass pretty easily. Now it's just a matter of what the market will look like, what we'll actually do with it in the. Which is crazy. It's a De'Vannon: step. The thing that stood out to me about Mrs. Manas, was she, she, she kept saying like, it was like, for the children, you, the children, half of the children, you know, I'm getting like flashbacks to one division, you know, for Disney when they're, you know, her and vision, you know, Wanda Envision, you know, wanting to max him off.Yeah. Marvel, you know, I'm like, geeking out right now. But , they kept saying that thing for the children and there weren't any fucking children. Because she had, she had put 'em all to sleep, but she, I, I was like, Okay, I wonder if she asked the children what they want or was she just using them to enforce her agenda every time?I see like a [00:39:00] politician, especially like, I mean, you know, especially like the Republican and stuff like that, wanting to enact negative policies on behalf of veterans. For instance, me being a military veteran, I always, I'm like, I don't want you to do that. Like everything you're doing, I don't want you to do.You didn't ask me . So, but they're like, Our veterans wouldn't want my choice. Yeah. no. And so, I don't know. That stood out to me like right, like the children, but they don't. I don't know what to call that. What do you call that when people do that? Are they, are they calling themselves doing it in the name of righteousness?Are they getting, Now you're a parent now, so you have this feeling. Would you go and do something this adverse on behalf of your children without consulting their opinion FirstAnd I don't understand Emily: that they prefer that. Right. They would love to, they'd love to gimme their opinions. Right. But you know, I. I think you're to a really important question, right? Which is like, [00:40:00] where do the rights of children end and the rights of adults begin, right? So like when, when Keith, Shar, and every and everybody else in the parent movement is saying, Oh my God.We have to repeal decriminalization laws because of the children. Like do it for the children. The children are being harmed by these drugs. But then that transforms from like, we have to have these laws for the children to, We have to excessively punish. Adults for drug possession or dealing or whatever else excessively punish them.Like especially after the 1986 Drug Abuse Act, right? When you're getting mandatory minimums of 5, 10, 15 years when we're locking up millions of people for drug possession. Like where does the rights of children end And like the range of adults in and the pushback to that. But what about the children line of thought did finally start to come in the nineties, right?[00:41:00] When marijuana legalization efforts dovetailed with the gay rights movement in what I think is just one of the most fascinating, like historical co ever, right? So in California, in San Francisco, as AIDS is starting to. Decimate the gay population. You have a couple of activists, including Dennis Perran and Brownie Mary Rath Fund, whose real name is Mary Jane, which is crazy.They're using marijuana to like give to these aids patients who, like doctors don't wanna touch, nobody wants to get near them. No one knows what to do. No one knows how to treat hiv. It's brand new. Right? And Brownie Mary and Dennis Perran are. Have a, have a pot and infuse brownie, like you're gonna get your appetite back, Your nausea is gonna chill out.You're gonna feel pretty good. You're gonna have some energy. You can like go to the [00:42:00] bank. You can do like an errand right before you die. A horribly of aids like my God. Right? So they're saying, where did the rights of children end? Yes. We kept children so safe from pot that like by the early eighties, like no one is smoking pot anymore and we're locking.Tens of thousands of people, right? Like every month, right? Okay, great. We've done it. We won the drug war. But now it turns out this substance does have some medical utility for a patient group that is increasingly becoming like really sympathetic. You know, like cuz you have, I mean Arthur Ash contracts, hiv God, that little boy got it through like a blood transfusion or something.So you start to like have like really sympathetic feelings towards, Oh, Princess Diana visits the HIV clinic in the San Francisco General Hospital. Right? Like suddenly it becomes really sympathetic and laws start to change, right? Suddenly adults rights, especially like adults dying of AIDS and cancer, like their rights become much more important than protecting children from pot.And then, [00:43:00] Can kind of move like fast forward into the two thousands. 2010, the legalization movement joins with the social justice movement. So in 2010, Michelle Alexander publishes her book The New Jim Crow, Mass Incarceration in the Age of Color Blindness, which is canonical at this point. Canonical, I tell you, and like it is all.The effects of locking up nonviolent offenders, the vast majority of which are black men. Like, well, what have we done in America By locking up millions of people, more people, more black people are incarcerated in the United States than in South Africa at the height of apartheid. Like what effects does that have culturally, socially, economically?It has effects. And she lays them out and we're all like, Oh my God. Now we know. And laws started to change right after that, right? In 2012, you have the first states legalized Colorado and Washington by combining legalization [00:44:00] with calls for social justice, right? If cannabis is the source of massive amounts of black incarceration, legalized cannabis, right?That's one way to like act on social justice, and it was also legalized through. Outright calls for generating tax revenue, right? Like here is something that we can legalize and tax the be Jesus out of. And not only are we like doing good on social justice initiatives, but we're also gonna make a boatload of money.Like it's a total win-win at the moment. And that's basically, again, arguments for the rights of adults, right? Should we, should we incarcerate X number of million of people, millions of people for cannabis possession? So again, like. Argument for its children's rights, which was like so immensely powerful in the 1970s and eighties has now I would say, really been pushed to the back burner by almost three decades of really concerted and very powerful and very influential activism for adults rights to access cannabis, [00:45:00] for medical, and then social justice and economic initiatives.De'Vannon: And that's the tea. Y'all, Y'all have it? Emily . Emily: There's, there's 50 years of cannabis history guys. Woo. . De'Vannon: And, you know, I work with you know, so many people right now, and I, and I, I love how you, I feel like your book is almost like a, a user's manual for people who wanna get into this fight. You know, you're giving historical context, you're giving advice and everything.And so You know, I'm thinking about, you know, a friend of mine if her name is iFit Harvey, she runs the people of Color Collective. People of color, Psychedelic Collective, which is based out of New York City. And you know, and I, and I work with them, you know, I just did an interview, you know, for, I gave them an interview the other day and we were talking about like you know, marijuana, you know, the way it's, you know, criminalized here in Louisiana where I live versus where one of their.[00:46:00]Satellite locations is in Oregon, in Portland. And so, you know, things like this are very helpful you know, for young people cuz these people are really, really like young who have started this, you know, psychedelic collective and everything like that. And so I think, yeah. Right. I think books like this are so like, useful.So we're nearing the end of our hour and so I just wanted to mention. You mentioned normal earlier. I wanna tell people that stands for the I think you said, at the National Organization for the Reform rather than repe of marijuana laws. And then we'll go right into talking about like your your lessons and things like that.And, and we may just pick like one or two that that's important to you. But and so another little, a final ex sweep from the book. I'm channeling my inner Bugs Bunny, so an ex. From the book, it says normal, you know, or ML argue that marijuana smokers or consumers not deviance and deserve the same rights to protection and [00:47:00] safety as any other group.Including access to the drug without pollutants or contaminants. A competitive marketplace free from monopolies and conglomerates, and especially freedom from harassment by the poll lease. Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. felt like a, a Southern Sunday. GodEmily: I love it. I want you to record the audio book. That's great. I love it. . De'Vannon: Oh, I'll do it. I love getting on this microphone right here and do it. I did my own audio book. Oh, that's awesome. And so I wanted to bring that up because like you had normal fighting for it. You had Miss, Miss Minnaar fighting against it back then.Like you say in the book, we have the same thing now because I don't want people to wrestling their laurels and get so comfortable thinking that it's a home run. It's a clean slate. You know? We must stay vigilant. Emily: Mm. Yes, totally. I think that's, I mean, it, it does [00:48:00] feel like to me, I feel like. Pot becomes the scariest drug around when there's no other boogie in.So in like the 1970s, early 1970s when the first decriminalization laws were being passed, we're also kind of going through a heroin epidemic, right? And right now we've been going through the opioid epidemic for like, whoa, 30 years or so, . But it's kind of coming to its natural. At the same time that the legal cannabis marketplace is really starting to heat up and when opioids become like, when there's no like, like meth was a boogieman for a while.Crack was a boogieman for a while, but opioids have been a bo the boogieman for like 30 years. And if that starts to tamp down, if we start to feel less scared about that and there's like sort of like a void in like the drug boogieman cuz you know, we always need a drug boogieman. We're America, we need a drug boogieman and.Pot. Well sometimes I think come back and fill that [00:49:00] role. Like there, there could be widespread rejection of the legal marketplace. I mean, in certain places, right? Like in Massachusetts that legalized. However long ago, some communities don't want it, and they are allowed to say within that state's jurisdiction.We do not want any cannabis marketplaces within our community borders. So there's gonna be some nimbyism and there's going to be some nimbyism like, yes, in my backyard to it. But again, it's, you don't know what's like, we don't know what's going to happen. This is a brand new marketplace that could bust its boots like.I mean, it's been around for a decade now, which is amazing. But things are gonna get big fast and if people don't like it, it could very well turn, turn back around. I mean, that's not impossible. It's not, it's improbable, but not impossible. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: So what I'll do in the interest of time, I'll just read the title of each of the six letter , then people can go and buy the book to get the advice that you have in there.Do it. I think that and after I [00:50:00] read the titles, and I'll let you have our last word. . Which is a, which is another a page I borrowed from the book of Joy read because she she always gives her guests, you know, like the last word and everything like that. And so I thought you a good idea. I'm very inspired by that woman, and so, oh, I love it.So, lesson one, make your argument as sympathetic as possible. The lesson two, it's all about the money. lesson three. Be prepared to watch your progress disappear. That's the most shocking one for me and in my inten, in my opinion, the most sobering, less than four. Don't rely too heavily on the White House, and she means over multiple administrations.And then less than five, respect your opposition, less than six. Keep a sense of perspective, which is also a statement of humility. So her website is emily din.com, Social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, India, [00:51:00] Instagram, medium. Oh podcast. You can listen to Emily conduct interviews, new books.Networks has a Drugs Addiction and Recovery podcast. This book is grass Roots. And then she already mentioned the other one she has coming out. So with that, I'm gonna shut my cock up. And any last , anything that you would like to say and just take it away, darling. Emily: Oh, My gratitude is to you for, for having me, but also for bringing your message and your love, and your light and your spirit to the people.I am grateful to you and for all the work you do. So thank you very much. De'Vannon: All right. Thanks everybody for tuning in. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Emily: Don't eat Fentanyl Candy .De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you [00:52:00] can find more information and resources at Sex Drugs and jesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be right. 

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Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #74: A Review Of Dahmer - Monster: The Jeffrey Dahmer Story (Netflix + Ryan Murphy), With Demi Wylde, Author & Host Of The Hookup Horror Stories Podcast

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2022 66:40


INTRODUCTION: Ryan Murphy and Netflix have collaborated to bring us a shocking rendition of the life and times of notorious serial killer + cannibal, Jeffrey Dahmer (Evan Peters). Jeffrey Dahmer was responsible for the murder of 17, mostly black and brown, young men and young boys. Dahmer would drug them, kill them, harvest their body parts and eat them. This series documents Dahmer's internal struggle, as well as, how the police failed everyone despite multitudinous warning signs. Please join Demi Wylde, the host of the Hookup Horror Stories podcast and De'Vannon, the host of the Sex, Drugs and Jesus podcast as they go through a review of the entire series. THEMES FOUND WITHIN THIS SERIES (But not limited to):  ·      Racism·      Homophobia·      Nature Vs. Nurture·      Hookup Culture Dangers·      Cannibalism ·      The Humanity In Dahmer·      Implications Of Dahmer's Childhood·      Grossly Flawed Legal System·      Dahmer's Fan Base·      Dahmer's Copycats·      Forgiveness vs. Unforgiveness  CONNECT WITH DEMI: Linktree: https://linktr.ee/demitriwylde   CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: Dahmer[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Ryan Murphy and Netflix have collaborated to bring us a shocking rendition of the life in times of notorious serial killer and cannibal. Jeffrey Dahmer, played by Evan Peters. Jeffrey Dahmer was responsible for the murder of 17. Mostly black and brown young men and boys. Dahmer would drug them, kill them, and harvest their body parts and eat them.This serious documents doer's internal struggle, as well as [00:01:00] how the police failed everyone, despite Multitudinous warning signs. Please joined Demitri Wylde. The host of the Hookup Horror Stories podcast and myself as we go through a review of this entire Netflix series.Demi: Welcome to Hookup Horror Stories. I'm W Wild. You're Resident Sexual deviant. De'Vannon: Hello, bitches. My name is Danna and I hosted Sex Drugs in Jesus podcast. How you doing? Demi: How you doing? It is spooky season. So we are here talking about the show that is taking the internet by storm. Ryan Murphy's latest Netflix show Monster, the Jeffrey Daher story De'Vannon: C.All the while I was watching that Lady Gaga song Monster Within my Head, That boy is a monster and bitch. Did he not give meaning to the [00:02:00] term Eat Your Heart Out. Demi: Eat Your Heart Out. Actually, I think secretly that song was partially about him. De'Vannon: Lady Gaga song. Yeah, yeah, Demi: yeah. I could see that. And behold, I think like she was using him as like a reference to, you know, talk about a guy that she was, you know, , who De'Vannon: was a monster to her.Freaked out by I was, I was playing back the lyrics in my head. I asked my girlfriend if she seen you run before. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I have so much to say about all of this. Demi: Yeah. We've got a lot to talk about. This is a very extra special kind of crossover episode that I've never done before and I think it's really fun to talk about, especially for Halloween De'Vannon: season.Yeah. So we're doing a threeway with Jeffrey Dahmer than I ate, basically. And couldn't get any more creepier than that, but we're gonna do it because we're open minded and super freaky and so, I was inspired by Dahmer the other day. Well, inspired by the, not by him, but by the documentary, you know?Mm-hmm. , [00:03:00] and and I was like, I reached out to Deme and I was like, Girl, we need to do a show about this motherfucker. Let's talk about this. Demi was like, Let's release it on Halloween. I was like, Okay, let's, let's, let's, let's do it at the witching hour then, . That's Demi: right. That's right. Well, yeah, it, it is a witching hour.So obviously we've got our candles lit here De'Vannon: before we begin and get too far into it. I have mine that I'm going to light now. This little T light here, I'm lighting it out of respect for the people who Jeffrey Daher murdered, but not just the people he murdered, but also anybody who's departed this plane of existence in a very torturous brutal way like that.And so I don't know. Hopefully it shed some peace on them in the afterlife. Agree. And so, [00:04:00]as we say, in, in in positive energy circles for the good of all, or not at all, Demi: for the good of all, or not at all. I like that. Perfect. Amazing. Well, if you guys are watching this on video, you'll obviously receive this on both of our channels.Check it out. Boom. Otherwise just sit back and listen to what we're gonna talk about. Spoiler alerts and trigger warnings are in full effect, so get De'Vannon: ready. Yeah, it, we, we put spilling all the tea until every goddamn damn thing. So in fact, you can probably listen to this episode instead of watching the series.You feel like it cause we going through this bitch. Demi: Exactly. Well, we've got a lot to talk about so let's just get a little refresher on who Jeffrey Daher was. Shall we? De'Vannon: We shall first. He was hot. He was hot. I will say . Was he? I don't think so. Well that's cuz you really like black. [00:05:00]Demi: I mean, I'm hoping to all but like not him.First of all, he is so like plain Jane looking first of all, and second of all the glasses, the demeanor, the hair, just, I'm not feeling it at all. . De'Vannon: Now I'm talking about the younger hyn. Now I'm not talking about the older prison or whatever the fuck I'm talking about, that I'm not about the, the young one.Demi: Well, yeah, either way he, he's playing with those striped shirts, the button up. Uhuh. Can't do it. not my type of white boy. We're not gonna make you. No. So anyways, let's talk about Jeffrey Dahmer. So, Jeffrey Lionel Daher was also known as the Milwaukee Cannibal or the Milwaukee monster. He was an American serial killer and convicted sex offender who committed the murder and dismemberment of 17 men and boys between 1978 and 1991.Many of his later murders involved necrophilia, cannibalism, and the [00:06:00] permanent preservation of body parts. Typically parts of the skeleton. Although he was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, sty of personality disorder and psychotic disorder, he was convicted of 15 and 16 or 15 of the 16 murders he had committed in Wisconsin, and he was sentenced to 15 terms of life imprisonment on February 17th, 1992.Daher was later sentenced to a 16 term of life imprisonment for an additional homicide. Committed it in Ohio in 1978. On November 28th, 1994, Daher was beaten to death by Christopher Scarr, a fellow inmate at the Columbia Correctional Institution in Portage, Wisconsin. His victim's names are all Steven Mark Hicks, who is 18, Steven Walter Tomi, who was 25.James Edward d Tater, who is 14? Richard Guro, who is 22? Anthony Lee Sears is 24. Raymond Lamont Smith, who is 32. Ernest Marque, Miller 22. David Courtney Thomas, who is 22. Curtis Dorell [00:07:00] Strader. Who is 17? Err. Lindsay. Who is 19? Tony Anthony Hughes, who is 31 Conac in, Who is 14? Matt Cleveland. Turner, Who is 20?Jeremiah Benjamin Weinberger, who is 23. Oliver. Joseph Lacey, who is 24. And Joseph Arthur Bradoff, who is 25.How do we feel? De'Vannon: I was taking, taking and giving everyone a moment of silence to just like take like that set in for a moment. Yeah. How do I feel? It reminds me of, of all the vigils we see on TV after mass school shootings and stuff like that. Yeah. You know, it's like when all the, all the, all the dead coming together.I'm just seeing like, you know, all the titty bears and the flowers and the candles on the ground. That, that's the imagery I'm getting. How about you? Demi: It's a lot to take in. I, I couldn't watch the show. In normally, like, I like to binge something that's not [00:08:00] one of those bingeable shows to me. That first episode had me just like, fully, like on edge, like, and I love horror.I love true crime. I don't get squeamish a whole lot. I was very squeamish by this. It was very visceral in my opinion. I just, I was like, Oh my God, what the fuck is happening? You know? Seeing these characters play out before he, before us, the actual murders themselves being portrayed in such a way, especially by Ryan Murphy about it just made everything so much more real.You know? Cause I've already known the story. I've already known what happened, but like, just seeing it played out was like, Holy shit. Like this is a little too much at times. It's De'Vannon: all great to have a a, a story, but it's all about how you tell it baby. And so let us give credit to those who told it. Now, Evan Peters is the star of this.And then like he said, like, like, like to me, said Ryan Murphy wrote it. And then I saw the name Ian Brennan come up as a lot of the writing. There were other people who wrote it too, but [00:09:00]mainly Ian Brennan. I'm partial to Ian Brennan cuz my boyfriend's name is Ian . So I'm here for all the Ian's of the world.And Demi's, one of Demi's favorite persons, Niecy Naja was in there giving life, serving face, , . Demi: She played such a good role, and I know that Glenda was, was a real person, but that character that she played and the stuff that she experienced was actually experienced by a lot of the other people that were like in the building or other people that had interactions.So she was kind of an amalgamation of like a bunch of people. I actually remember specifically the, the instance where the, the 14 year old where he actually, you know, he drilled the head and put acid in there and he was like, you know, comatose almost, but like still, he got up and he, and he ran. And so Glenda was like, and then I think another couple people were outside and they found the boy and then the police.Sent [00:10:00] them back in with, with Daher. It was like, Oh my God, what the hell is happening here? But she was fully giving me life the entire time especially in those moments where she really like cared to, but also that she wasn't heard. You know? She like, it was so, Oh my, I can't even like verbalize it. It was De'Vannon: messed up.Oh my darling, I will do my part to guide you through this emotional journey you were about to take , so the, I had two questions for you. Yeah. Before we get into the episode breakdowns, I just wanted to know what was the most heartbreaking part for you? Was it the scene you just described or with is something d.Demi: I mean, that one was obviously a heartbreaking, cuz I know how all of 'em really heartbreaking cuz I knew how they all ended. What was the, the, the def the deaf guy? I, I'm gonna Tony Hughes, Was that his name? De'Vannon: Oh God. He went through so many men. Honey, I couldn't keep up with the names. I know. Demi: I think that was, [00:11:00] I think that was his name.I could be wrong. I apologize if I am, but I'm really bad with names anyways. But yeah, the, the deaf boy he, that one was the most heartbreaking cause I knew how it played out and it was just so sad to see, like, it was hard for me to like peel away the kinda like monster mentality versus like kind of just like the need to connect with someone, Which I think a lot of people who are like dah.Feel, So I don't wanna like sympathize with a killer, you know? But I can understand how a person just wants to be connected to another person. And I think that was the closest thing that he had was with, was with Tony. And so far from the show, I'm not sure about real life. But you know, in the show it played out that way, that they actually had dates and they actually had, you know, time spent together and they spent the night together and , it was just so heartbreaking, you know?[00:12:00] Mm-hmm. . Oh, De'Vannon: well I feel for you darling. I feel for you that, that that part was super heartbreaking. And what stood out to me was that that's the deaf guy was the one who was trying to keep a classy, He actually didn't have his legs open the moment he met Jeffrey, and he was the one I know told him no, and I thought, I wonder if, because Jeffrey didn't kill him.He thought about it. He had the drugs to put it in his drink. Mm-hmm. and he put it back up. So this is, this is when we see Jeffrey trying to fight that monster within. And I'm thinking the deaf guys is somebody who's actually telling him no. Their little note he wrote said, You have to earn me cuz he didn't talk.So he told Jeffrey, You have to earn me. And this evoked a different response from Jeffrey. Yeah. You know, we see this in men, you know, quite often if you know, if, if, if, if you let them fuck you tonight they will. But if not, you know, they may just treat you with respect instead. And so, Demi: yeah, I mean that was what was most [00:13:00] heartbreaking for me was like that, that story with him.We all know how it ended clearly, but I'm not sure if they depicted this exactly, but Several of, of his victims. He actually like, kept around, like laid around while after he killed him. So like, he, they were in his apartment for like three days or whatever. Tony, he kept around for a while before he decided to get rid of him.It is just so strange, like seeing these like, kind of like, I don't want to humanize him, but like, it's just moments of like, Oh my God. Like, I kind of feel bad. I, this, this kid had, he was doomed from the beginning. He was doomed from the beginning. His mom was crazy. His dad taught him how to do this shitDe'Vannon: I, I think kind of like a part of the point of [00:14:00] this series was to bring out his humanity, because everybody knows. You know, he's the crazy bitch who killed all these people. Mm-hmm. , but the sensitive side with his history and background to my knowledge, had never been told before. And so I'm okay with looking at a person and seeing both the evil and the good in them.Right. And so, and I think that this series did a great job with that. The second question I had for you was, what, what, And the answer might be the same, but, you know, what was the most shocking part for you? Like something that you just not see coming, like, Oh bitch. Demi: Well, I don't think, I didn't see anything coming.Okay. I think the most shocking, but also not exactly I, I knew this was gonna happen anyways, was the fact that like the police that just were completely negligent in, in taking this seriously, [00:15:00]just. Got off on it, you know, it ju it was just so fucked. And I think that was what made me so angry at the very end was just like, Oh my God.Like here is this, this predator who is going after, you know, marginalized people. And whether intentionally or not, he, he was, he was doing it that these police officers just didn't want to get involved. You know, Even though Linda was calling them all the time, seeing their weird smells or there's body, you know, I, it's just mind boggling how, how messed up that shit is and how real it is.Cause it happens to this day still. De'Vannon: Right. What, what shocked me the most was the role that his parents played in it. His mom being on all the pills and the medication, which clearly scrambled his brain chemistry and his dad. Harboring the same sort of desires, but acting him out with animals and then teaching his son how to do the same thing.That's something [00:16:00] I never saw coming. I was shocked about that. Demi: Yeah. I mean, that part, the fact that his, at the very end they were talking about keeping his brain mm-hmm. to study it, which I think would've been really great to do just for science concur. And then his dad was just like, No, we just gotta, We're done with it.We gotta De'Vannon: go. He didn't have the balls, He didn't really have a whole lot of nuts throughout the whole thing. Yeah, no, he had like a moment of nu tackiness and then he just, he just didn't wanna face the truth or whatever those results would've rendered . Good deal. Right. Demi: I think the most interesting part of it was like, it, it raised in my, in my mind the whole concept of nature versus nurture, as we know as gay people, like how much of us growing up gay, is it nature versus nurture?How much of it growing up as a, as a homicidal maniac, [00:17:00] cannibal, , how much of that is nature versus nurture? You know, you know, his mom was, was obviously was like nature right there, you know, he, that was like biological and then his dad kind of nurtured this part of him too. So like, it kind of had both ends of the spectrum.You know, It's, it's so interesting. De'Vannon: But I also wanna point out that of these 17 young men that were murdered, the majority of them were black and brown individuals. Correct? This was happening during, like, the middle of the last century, so there's a lot of racism, homophobia going on, you know, and that's, that's a theme throughout the end.I love Jackson Jackson's Tri Jesse, Reverend Jackson. Jackson is Triton appearance. Towards the end. Mm-hmm. as you mentioned though, this sort of thing does still happen today. And, and, and if I could like, make a hashtag, like and give respect to your podcast, hook up horror stories, I would say this show pretty much demonstrates the old hashtag ultimate of [00:18:00] horror story.Demi: I agree. . This is the ultimate, this is the thing that we've all been more warned about in like hookup cultures. Like, you know, don't go out on a date with anybody. You not the internet, otherwise you'll fucking be murdered. You know, or gotten your heart eating out. Literally the ultimate hookup horror story.De'Vannon: Yeah. So we're not joking in this, in this series. Y'all, Jeffrey liked to cut the boys up. I'm pretty sure he sauteed a liver, a human liver, you know, and, and he ate it like it was a goddamn Morton Steakhouse six, you know, five star restaurant. I mean, I guess, I mean, I'm laughing, I'm not laughing at it, but I don't have any other emotions to, to, I'm laughing at the how hysterical this whole thing is.Demi: I mean, if we don't laugh, we'd cry because it's so fucked up in [00:19:00] grotesque. But I think also talking about it openly and also discussing how we feel about it and using humor as a way to kind of cope. That's something I'm very familiar with. I'm, I make really, I have a very dark, twisted sense of humor. So this is definitely something I do on a regular basis.So, no, this is a safe space. I think. Anybody who's listening, I hope you guys feel the same way. This is a safe space. I think that , in addition to like the, in addition to all the, you know, horrible dismemberments and the cannibalism and keeping body parts in its fridge and freezer and stuff I think the most, one of the most crazy things about it was like he drilled their heads and then put acid in their brain in order to make living zombies.That was like his goal, because he didn't want people to leave him. He didn't want people to, like, he wanted people to be subservient and to be like, you know, [00:20:00] it's, it's so fucked up. But also it's kind of like, Oh God, you just wanted connection. You know?De'Vannon: I think that stemmed from his mother and his dad always leaving him. Yeah. Cause in the first like episodes we see his mom just got his little brother and screeched off because his mom and dad had a terrible, chaotic relationship. So people can get their heads fucked up just from the parents not getting along and shit like that.Right. This experience in my, in my own household. And that's why that was, he didn't want to be left. He didn't understand. Okay. They gotta go to work. They got something else to do. He wasn't trying to hear none of that. Oh, he heard he just wanted them to stay. He wanted them to stay, You know? But I mean, why do, when we go around and we do a whole lot of hooking up, then I think it's for the same reason, at least for me, you know, looking back when I was in and out of a different bed every night, you know, I just didn't [00:21:00] wanna be alone when I was a drug dealer, you know?And I would just give people narcotics or whatever. Just, I just didn't fucking wanna be by myself. Right. So how do we fix that? Okay. Demi: Yeah. I have no idea. , . I think it's, it's maybe being comfortable being alone has, has part to do with it. Being comfortable with being, but also not like being so alone that you go crazy.You know, reaching out to people when you need to and talking to friends, people who you trust, who are having people you trust in order to kind of alleviate some of that loneliness and, and to bring other perspectives into, into being. I wanted to bring out another serial killer that I, I found a lot of like kind of connection to Daher.And his name was Dennis Ni. He was a guy in the UK who also a gay serial killer. He didn't eat the body parts, but he did keep body parts around. [00:22:00] And his first kill was a young man. He met at a bar, brought him home, ended up just drinking and talking all night, having a great time sleeping together.I don't think they had sex, but they, they slept at the same bed, they cuddled, whatever. The next morning Dennis got up and he decided that he didn't want this boy to leave, like they all do. And he ended up strangling him while he was in bed. It's kind of that same motive where it was kind of like, you know, you just want someone to be around.I and then he also keeping of the body parts has something to do with that too. Yes. There's some sort of like trophy involved, but also kind of like more like, I have this memento of this person, you know, we still go connected to them. Yeah. So still, still still feel connected to them. Exactly. The only way Dennis Nelson got caught was just this kind of gross, but he, after a few years of like doing this and stuff and keeping body parts around the house [00:23:00] he decided to start getting rid of the stuff and he started putting it down the drainAnd anyone who's been the UK knows that plumbing in the UK sucks. And so he started putting body parts down the drain and. People in the building started finding brown water coming up and they were like drinking it and all this stuff, and they, they finally called, you know, the management, whatever. They found out that there's like these horrible body parts going up and they all tracked it back to Dennis.That's how we got caught. But I felt a lot of like kind of connection between Daher and ni. Like it was very kind like these guys had like the similar mos. They still had kind, were like fucked up in the head from the very beginning. There's still still a very troubling background too. It's just a pretty wild, both of these people had similar backgrounds and they wound up doing the same kind of thing.Was, De'Vannon: was this UK for Well, I'm, I'm, to some extent I'm pleased that eating people was a touch too far for him. He [00:24:00] just could not. Was he before Daher? During or after? Demi: Wondering 82. De'Vannon: Okay. I think Daher hit the news in like in the nineties. Mm-hmm. , they were doing currently. Demi: Okay. So this is 10 years before Daher, but actually around the same time. Cause I think Dahmer got started in 78, so Yeah. They were around the same time. De'Vannon: My lord Jesus. So, so I would wanted to issue like a word of warning, like in terms of like the, the danger of hooking up.Mm-hmm. . I just wanna like remind people that bad things do happen to people when they go behind closed doors with strangers. I get as really easy to go online and meet a fool and run off with them. I've done it and I think the sweet baby Jesus, that nothing bad ever happened, but I'm, I'm not arrogant to say that it, that it's not like it could have, It's not like I practiced discretion.I didn't tell anyone where I was going. [00:25:00] I didn't verify the person's name. I didn't verify that it was even their home that I was in. None of those things, I just trusted a stranger. . When I know like whenever people have like bad shit happen to them on hookups, usually they don't run around and tell it.Cuz everybody wants to make it seem like they have a super glorious sex life. Right. And what'll happen is when you're on these hookup apps, like that person who you always see in that square, suddenly you just won't see them anymore. Mm-hmm , that's kind of how that goes. So I'm just reminding y'all be careful.Cause in this show, some of the guys would look at a drink cuz Jeffrey would put used to put the fucking dope in the drink and they'd look at it and be like, this looks funny. And then they would just drink it anyway. Demi: Right. . So that also goes with just, just the naivete. People not knowing, people not thinking, you know, or just, eh, whatever, let's have fun, you know, whatever the case may be.Always . So I have, I have a friend who anytime that he goes somewhere, he always texts me to tell me where he is going. [00:26:00] I think it's great. It's wonderful to have a person that you, a little slot friend that you could just be like, Hey, I'm going to X this address , but you don't here, but by tomorrow I'm dead.You know, I got , I got bomber. So like, it, it's, it's very important to have those friends that you can talk to about this kind of stuff. And I think the whole purpose of like the stuff, what we do in our podcast and, and, and talking about this stuff openly and honestly, that this stuff does happen quite regularly to everyone and it is not doing anybody any good to just like, leave the stuff inside and to kind of like release that shame in a way to talk about it openly.To talk about, hey, this, here's how we can avoid this stuff. You know, what to look out for. You know, It's the same thing with, it's the same thing with true crime. It's like you, you. Wanna know more about what's happening to these people, because that helps us later on to like, kind of like be a little metos and be like, You know what, I, I don't, I know what's going on here.I need to [00:27:00] leave, You know, , De'Vannon: oh that makes me think of an Angela Langs very, who recently died rest in peace girl. She gave us murder she wrote, and the Venturian candidate , among Demi: other things, A little story by Angela Lansbury. I used to watch Bed ro, bed knobs and broomsticks when I was growing up, of course.But my grandma used to have a a bed, but in the room that I slept with that looked exactly like the bed from beds and broomstick. So every time I slept on that bed, I always felt like I was like riding through wherever with insulin landsbury, . De'Vannon: Well, you know what? She was a gay icon before. I realized that this such thing existed.Lame. I love the hair. I love the hair, the twist that she did. So, so you mentioned true crime. I know, I know you're considering this, like your true crime breakout, [00:28:00] so to speak. from this is, this is her breakout interview. So from the true crime aspect, like what would you like to say? What would you like to bring up? Like what's true crime to you? I mean, the whole damn thing is, but like, what, what do you, what do you wanna pick apart from it?Demi: Honestly, like I, I love true crime and I feel like the more we learn about this kind of darker aspect of humanity, the more we kind of. Bring this stuff back into light to talk about it openly, to share stories. And I, I think that has a lot to do with, like, I used to really suck at history in high school , but true crime has like kind of brought me more in line with, like, understanding history more.And I think the more that we understand history, the more we can we plan for the future. Mm-hmm. . So I think that is really kind of like coming full circle for me in a way to kinda like understand this from like that perspective, but also like to understand how, [00:29:00] how victims work and how like the police are so fucked up and, and how humans can just not always get things right.You know, we're, we're, we're full of problems, we're full of issues. We all make, we all make mistakes. We all make shit an shit decisions, you know, De'Vannon: we do. And sometimes it's because we. Or we are full of ourselves. You know, we get blindsided by our own desires, ambitions, and stuff like that. And think a little less about the other person than probably we.I don't like to use the word should very often, but in this case I'll say than we should I call for more compassion towards other people in this earth. I just wanna say that I'm super upset and mad and like bitter in my soul that I had [00:30:00] to wait till episode two for Evan Peters to take his fucking clothes off.I'm getting spoiled by American Horror stories. Like his s is always on his like literal bare s is always on the screen, but we got a little, almost kind of slight side dick or top. Two on this one. I was just saying girling, like,Demi: so you'd be, you'd be sending dahmer like letters in the mail, wouldn't you? De'Vannon: in exchange for nudes. Fuck it. Demi: Think what I got most excited for was Sean Brown, who was playing Tracy Edwards, who's the guy in the first episode who, who did the little sexy dance in order to escape from daher. I think that was brilliant.I think that was like a fantastic dramatization of what might have happened. I'm not sure if that actually happened, but holy shit. That was like in insane. That was, that was an [00:31:00] insane escape. I'm so happy that he got out and then he finally got caught. Props to Sean Brown for playing that He is completely me worthy.De'Vannon: they're coming. Oh, I, I made one. Did you see it? ? Yeah. . So, so Sean, if you're listening, you know, Demi's address is available and you, I, he is in Los Angeles, a, you know, Demi's in Los Angeles. So I think you should go do that dance for him. And so I love how, So episode one actually shows, like, like to me is saying, you know, this character escaping, running down the street, getting the police coming back, and Jeff Dahmers actually getting arrested.Mm-hmm. . And so the series actually kind of, it's like flash backy and then the trial is kind of precipitating and starting to happen throughout. And I thought that was very nicely done, right? [00:32:00] So I wanna talk about his parents. I wanna talk about his parents. I ain't hit a judge because, you know, I done done all kind of drugs.I never was a pill popper. I just sold it. No judgment though. So this, so y'all, when when, when Jeffrey's mom was pregnant with him, she was on like, I can't remember, 26, 26 pills a day. Okay. You know, then, you know, so there's speculation that perhaps that fucked him up because, you know, they never thought about it before.Because we hear about crack babies. I don't mean that derogatory, but that's the term people will recognize. Or people, you know, mother's drinking. You know, you can't buy a bottle of wine back of the label for whatever fucking reason in this country. We have to tell, we have to put it in print. If you're pregnant, you shouldn't have this bottle of wine bitch.And so like, but it never occurred to me, you know, somebody getting a legal prescription from their doctors could do the same sort of [00:33:00] damage with pills. Mm-hmm. . So that was like super eye opening for me. Demi: And it was also the, it was like the sixties. So I mean, it was a completely different time for pharmaceuticals.Like people were just like, Yeah, take this methadone, take this fucking shit, take whatever antipsychotic that, you know, cuz who cares? Cause we're all just making money off of it anyways. We're still to this day is same problem. We're just prescribing opiates to people that don't really need it because we're making money doing it.So it's the same kind of kind of thing the pharmaceutical company is like, is or the pharmaceutical biz is fucked up. But it just goes to show that like, yes, like this stuff does in a large quantity is due serious damage to us, to our bodies and to the bodies that might be living inside of us. It's, it's insane, but it was a different time.It was like the sixties, completely different time. So you [00:34:00] had a, They still thought, they still thought, they still thought smoking was healthy back then. You know, , De'Vannon: I somehow feel like this country hasn't come that long of a way sometimes we seem so damn primitive with the way we treat each other and the, some of the things people say and do.So this, you know, so we had this mom with the pills, his dad harbored desires, you know, in the, in the show with his dad confessed towards the end. You know what? I really wanted to murder people and I would imagine having done it, but I didn't say anything. And basically the two of them helped to produce this serial killer.And I was thinking, you know, people don't want, you know, queer folk to have kids and everything because they're afraid we're gonna ruin them and turn them in and ruin the moral fabric. But you know, we just got, you know, really our rights to really have a family really not that long ago. So the world's serial killers and murders and, you know, all of these notorious people came from heterosexual unions.I just really wanted to point that out.[00:35:00]Demi: right? That's not an argument. Cause obviously like people procreate and so heterosexuals procreate. Obviously you guys are also doing your part to create people of Daher status. You know, it's not, the argument is invalid, you know, when it comes De'Vannon: to that. Right? So I love all the, you know, the things like that, that this series brought out.You mentioned several times how shitty the cops were. Mm-hmm. , Let's get more granular with that. Now, Jeffrey was already convicted sex offender on parole. Right. I think he murdered the damn 14 year old. Mm-hmm. . But he was a brother. Yeah. Right. And so, so Niecy, Nash's character, Linda believe it was, was complaining.But, you know, she's black. Mm-hmm. , it's, you know, gay things happening. So the cops are showing up like, so this is a boyfriend, boyfriend thing, Right. We don't wanna Demi: get involved. There's De'Vannon: aids, you know. Yeah. We might catch it from like, walking in your [00:36:00] apartment and so and so and so. So, no, they took a very hands off approach to this.Jeffrey was white, N's character was black, and then the little boy was Asian. And so they, they just, they just believed the white boy. And so and then Niecy, you know, just, just kept calling and calling and calling, you know, at some point N'S character. She, she just was like, I, you know, I'm, I'm not gonna say what, what's your favorite line that, that N's character said?Demi: I'll eat it later.when Daher comes into her apartment, which I don't know why the fuck she would let him into her apartment. He brought a sandwich into the apartment with him and he gives it to her and he tells her Eat it. And she goes, I'm not eating that . And he goes, Eat it. And she goes, I'll eat it later. . [00:37:00]That was just so brilliant and just like so well done.It's so like powerful. Just like go right back at him with that aggression. Like, Oh my God, that was so great. De'Vannon: You know? Yeah. She didn't back down. She told him, I'm not afraid of you. Mm-hmm. , she had fear cuz the moment he left her apartment and closed the Doche gas and she broke down. But So Niecy nasty, Niecy nasty character.Lives right next door to Daher and Dahmers putting shit in people's food. To drug them. And so he had made a sandwich probably out of people in dope. I'm sure it was people Yeah, exactly. And thought she was going to eat it, and so and so. No, she wasn't having any of that. And I thought she was, I thought she, I thought her character was like probably the strongest next to, you know, to the reverend.I thought her character was probably the strongest, you know? Yeah. You know, like in, in internally. Yeah. Yeah. So my favorite line from her is [00:38:00] when at some point she told the cops, you know, she's like, Y'all came, but it's too late now. Demi: It's too De'Vannon: late. You got 17 dead people. I called y'all how many times . She, she read those cops for absolute bills.Yeah. But the fucked up part, the cops were only suspended from duty with pay. The two cops that were on that circuit, on that beat, you know, handling this, they were only suspended. With pay. And then they got reinstated and then they gave them rewards for like top of the fucking year. Demi: I know. And I, I did, I did write down one of their lines that they said when they were talking to their police chief, they sold their police Chief, You can't fire us.Trust me, we will be here long after you. Which is just like, it's so threatening to say that to your boss, first of all. And so just gross, Just gross humanity. And just that, that abuse of power is so insane. And I, it's [00:39:00] still like that police could not be held accountable, period. There's nothing to hold them accountable.De'Vannon: I feel like there's. Accountability is starting to trickle up. But what, what he was, what those two cops told him was true. Whatever the shit hits the fan, it's the police chief or somebody in a high position to go right. And they, they're not wrong about that. And they went, ran into the police union and, you know, hid behind them.I'm so, I had applied to become a cop with the Houston Police Department at one point before, became a drug dealer. I am, yeah. I'm so happy I became a drug dealer instead. Because there is more honor and credibility in pushing dope in all kinds of methamphetamine and narcotics. Than being a fucking police officer.Demi: I agree. , there's these so there's and Canadian native people there's a, a story that I, I'm gonna butcher this completely, but [00:40:00] there was these stories that were called like like Midnight, Midnight Drive or something like that. I'm gonna get that wrong. But anyways, these police officers would, would take up these, these Canadian native people, drive them out into like the middle of nowhere, and then have them like, take off their shoes and everything and like, have them walk back into town and they would never find the bodies and stuff.And they were these, you know, it, it, it's crazy. People didn't find out that they were doing this to, to these native people for years. When they finally did, nobody was held accountable, really. Like the police chief was the one that, that kind of like left. And even the Wikipedia page was changed from someone in the police department.They that. And it's like no one, you can pinpoint which desk it came from. Why did you not even think to do that? You know, they just didn't want to. There's nothing to like keep that because it would make them look bad essentially. And that's, [00:41:00] it sucks. It's a reality of the situation. De'Vannon: But whatever it's worth, I, I, from, from my spirituality, I believe that God is not mocked in whatever they, so they will reap as a human.I don't believe is for me to see this necessarily play out. I'm not j I'm not, and I'm just saying like, that's the piece that I make with it, right? That's my own version of that. And so I hope other people don't become bitter, you know, looking at, you know, police to think police do, and because the bitterness isn't going to help you.You know, it's very easy to watch a series like this or to turn on the news today. And it doesn't get angry. The anger is so valid, but I just hope people don't internalize it, you know? So I just wanna be Demi: proactive, you know, volunteer, you know, be, be active in, you know, [00:42:00] protesting you know, be, be vigilant and, you know, really call out these things when you see it.It's, it's, it's shocking. It's, it's crazy, but at the same time, it's not all that surprising to see that, Yeah, this stuff still happens.De'Vannon: I don't know if I, Maybe I shouldn't. Maybe I should. Okay. I guess I will, since I said it that much. So, , so when, so there's a scene in here where Jeffrey, Jeffrey has a thing for mannequins and everything like that.Oh God. And so he goes into the store, kinda buys something, sneaks into the dressing room. And hangs out once they close. And then once the security guard leaves and they turn the lights off, he dashes out of the dressing room, Nas the mannequin, and of course is a nice chisel, male mannequin, all the ad right.Pulled everything going on. I have to confess, I've, you know, notice the, [00:43:00] the, the honks of the mannequins in the window. You know, that , that's why they make 'em that way. But I never was gonna take one home. So Jeffrey liked to get these mannequins and and. While I'm watching this, I'm having flashbacks from like Pose, which have absolutely nothing to do with this.Pose was super great. Also a whole nother, but again, another Ryan Murphy show, , another Ryan Murphy show, and also the first fucking episode of Pose, Season one, episode one. When a lecture in the House of Abundance go into the store, the Macy's or whatever they stay in for. Clothes hide everywhere. Come. They undressed the mannequin.Oh yeah. Clothes. They take the clothes and leave the mannequins. But I was, I don't know, it just reminded me of that. I was so happy to see one of those characters from Pose appear later on in the, in the series though, I think, I don't know, maybe his name was Danny and Pose one of the dancer guys. He was the dark chocolate one.Oh, right, right. Dos . [00:44:00]Demi: So, I mean, Ryan Murphy does like to work with the same actors, and I, that's, I think that's why he's taking a liking to Evan Peters, because Evan Peters is a great actor and he did such an amazing job with, with this role. As far as the mannequin goes, I have a confession. De'Vannon: No mannequin is safe.No mannequin is safe. Demi: Not mannequin. No, but I was, I was the only child. I, I didn't really have, I was, I was, you know, a little older than some of the kids on the block. So I was a little lonely at times. I kind of wished I had a brother or a friend around and I didn't really have one. I, I did occasionally build a friend.Out of pillows and my own clothes, and keep 'em on my De'Vannon: bed.Demi: It's a very weird thing that I did as a kid. My mom never batted an eye at this though. , It was very strange. I would give them [00:45:00] names. I would just, you know, this was just like, this is my friend that I've built. And so I kind of related to Daher in that, in that aspect of just like, Oh my God, this is so weird to keep this, this thing I, this, this form in my bed.You know? I never told that to another person, by the way. So everybody knows all this weird secret about De'Vannon: me, . Okay. I can confess something that I did, and I don't judge you for that, but you saying that reminds me of when I was in the Air Force and I left home when I was 17 and I could not relate with people coming from the country, coming from the Pentecostal background and, and I didn't know how to make friends and I didn't know.I got, I had this, I got this orange monkey. He was like a, a bright orange, You might call him like a curious Georgie thing, but he was like neon orange. And I would take him places with me, and now I'm 17, 18, you know, I have a car. I'm not really grown, but I'm older. And I, I would strap him into the front seat and put like [00:46:00] on him and drive him around because I couldn't find a fucking friend.You know, there was no, there was no grinder, there was none of that. You couldn't go online and find a friend. You had to go out and physically meet people. And I was 17. I wasn't old enough to go to any bars or anything. I was fucked, you know? And I wasn't in college, I was in, I was in a grown man's world in the military.I do not recommend going to the military at 17. So, no. Yeah, we built person. I went to toys us and bought mine. Fuck it. You know, , we all had our mixture of friends. Yeah. Demi: And, and you know, it's, It's not all that shocking, you know, it's, it is shocking in the context of like Daher, but at the same time, it's not all that shocking for people to just be lonely.De'Vannon: Right. And, and he was lonely. Lone did, Jeffrey was lonely cuz his parents not only walked away from him, but they didn't really teach him, you know they didn't really [00:47:00] teach him. Like, I don't feel like my parents taught me about sex, about life. You know, Jeffrey did not understand what it meant to be a homosexual.You know, when cops would show up, he would be like, we're doing gay things, you know porn, you know, to him it's like something, Homosexuality is something that you do. It's an action rather than who you are. Right? So, So, you know, the, he was he in that, in that aspect, I'll say the poor thing was misguided.I feel like so many of us gays are, you know, I wish someone would say, Hey, here's how you be in this world. You know,I wanna talk about post traumatic stress of disorder, . Okay. Like you said, gal NE's character was, is, was, is an alga amalgamation check of of all the people in the building. So by the end of the series, y'all the [00:48:00] people in this building where this boy then chopped up and cooked and filet and sauteed.These people just cannot. Okay? They have to go sleep downstairs in the hall because everybody's having nightmares. And flashbacks thinking, Jeffrey's coming for them, hearing the same sounds and shit. This is just like a veteran coming back from war. Right. Okay. People who barely escaped from him are having flashbacks.These people's families are getting harassed by the fucking police and shit. What? What? The PTSD as something that shocked me and I had never considered before. Demi: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, the victims aren't the only victims in this. It's the people that actually were in that building. It's the people who had to find the bodies who, you know, the people who actually working the crime scene and stuff.The people who were just the neighbors, you know, the people who lived in that, in that neighborhood. Those are all victims. Those are people that knew all this stuff was happening. [00:49:00] I think what the city Des decided was the right thing to do was just to knock down the building completely and erase it, which I think is the wrong thing to do.And I think Glenda was doing the right thing by fighting for this park in this plaque to commemorate the names of the victims of people. And I think that's a really important thing. And at the very end of the show you, you realize that it's still not there. So I think it's really, I think it'll bring up an interesting commentary to this, especially just because of this year and the kind of last couple years that we've been having in order to really do some good in this world, is to bring light onto things that were once dark, rather than just De'Vannon: make them disappear.That's like whitewashing it in a way. Like, you know, you know, I love, I love me, some white dick and all of that, but. White people can do things like try to just make problems disappear and shit. Mm-hmm. like what we see demonstrating here, [00:50:00] because historically white people have held at the power, you know, in this country, they've had the power to do it.Control the narrative, rewrite history, the where the fuck you wanna do, bad shit happen over there. We'll call it Murder House from American Horror Story couldn't get any worse. You know, bad shit happened. We'll just tear it down and we'll just act alike, you know, we'll just move on now. But like, like, like the reverend Jesse Jesse Jackson said in there, you know, we're not gonna let you just give us peaceful words like healing and hope, and everything's gonna be okay, which is another way of saying, let's just forget about it.Right? Demi: That's not how you deal with, with trauma. , you know, actually processing those emotions learning to stand in it and not be affected by it. Learning how to kind of move within it rather than just forget about it. Cuz as we all know, and we just pushed into the back of our minds, they always have a nice, lovely way of coming right back up into weird, do weird things to our psyche, [00:51:00] you know?So yeah, all those people, I'm sure I, I, I hope have gotten help through the years. But I still think that there still needs more to be done culturally, especially when it comes to like, people who are victims, who are horrible victims such as this. De'Vannon: And like, and, and you mentioned, I mean, all traumas like that.I mean, you said it best. I'm just gonna say trauma goes in, is he has to come back out. It won't just dissipate. And you mentioned earlier about, you know, you asked me like, would I be one of the ones writing letters to, to Jeff in the mail since I think he has a nice ass and d print. So in the series, y'all, this, this part grossed me out and I hope I was gross top in the nonjudgmental way because I don't like to judge anyone for anything.Okay. Jeff had a, had a, had, has a following. They started making Halloween costumes and shit. There was a comic, his [00:52:00] dad wrote a book. People started writing him letter, sending him money. It's kind of Trumpy . Demi: Oh. He was trying to profit off of what happened and like, being the father of the killer, you know, I think that's so messed up.And I think it was right for the victims, for the families of the victims to pursue that in court. And did, did they win? I, I believe they did Eventually. They, they want, they lost the first time, but they did. And yeah, that money should go to the victims. It should not go to the fucking dude. Like dad.That's insane. Like, my god, De'Vannon: not only, no, but hell nah. I couldn't believe he had the balls to do that. Like, I could have seen if he wrote it for cathartic healing reasons, maybe shared it with the family or whoever Demi: requested Yeah. Set up for like non-profit or something. Like just, Yeah, like, just don't, That's it's so selfish and it's very Trumpy for sure.De'Vannon: Yeah. They're in their [00:53:00] toasting margaritas, you know, and shit over the, over the book deal , you know, everything like that with no concern for people. So then Jeff had copycats people, Sorry, do mimic him and everything like that. And it. Makes me very concerned for the, for the mental state of the world.Because as old as this crime is, it's not like mental health. I don't feel like it's improved. Right. Treatment has gotten better, but people are still like, not all there . Right. Not as good as they could be. Demi: Completely. Do we have any final De'Vannon: thoughts? I do. I have, I, the, the last two things that I would like to bring up was the way the whole unforgiveness, bitterness thing that, that went from DC Nas character.Mm-hmm. , the guy who murdered him in jail, who felt like he was a right to hand of God and everything like that. And then Jeffrey's baptism and [00:54:00] repentance before that. Right. Do you think the repentance is real? For, for me. Like I was saying earlier, I, I don't want people to get into this space of thinking like we have space to judge anyone.I don't care how terrible it is. Right? It's like if somebody's like a monk, you know, in certain religions they feel like all life is sacred. So they would never, like say, step on a roach, Okay, we'll step on a roach, kill a spider in a fucking heartbeat. Cuz we view it as a threat or just gross or whatever.But if somebody goes to murder an elephant for their ivory, you know, then we're like, Oh no. How could you, I'm not justifying the murder of the elephants, but I'm saying like, if we get judgey, that monk could judge you for stepping on the roach. So I want people to be careful how they tread, because these people in jail, especially the guy that killed him, just couldn't, He was so offended by what he had done.He was like, I did bad shit, but it wasn't as bad as yours, so I'm running to kill you now. Mm-hmm.[00:55:00]Demi: obviously that guy had some mental problems and he became obsessed with this thing and, and obviously he had a very. Active vendetta against Dahmer for whatever reason. For many reasons I'm sure. But I think when it comes to forgiveness, I think it's important to forgive if not only for the sake of others, but for the sake of ourselves.When I mean, you don't have to forgive a person, you don't have to forget either. But I think in order for us to kinda like move on from like trauma like this, it is kind of important to be like, just forgive the situation. You know, just to kind of like allow some release of some way. You don't have to forgive the person, but just forgive the situation for what happened.And I think that's one way to do it. Perhaps the best way, I don't know, whatever works for you, like, whatever, it's [00:56:00] through religion, finding forgiveness through that, which I'm not sure if that was fully , I'm sure if that was fully authentic of, of Doward to kind of go through that. At the end, maybe he finally felt bad for the situation cuz I mean he was very aware, he was very self-aware of what was going on.He was just like, I, I just don't know how to control this. And, but maybe that was a way for him to kind of like, move through it. But at the same time, he also had some narcissistic tendencies at the very, when he started getting fan mail and stuff, he started getting a big head, you know, . Cause I, I really don't know where to place that, but I think in, for forgiveness to really happen, some sort of like forgiveness within needs to happen first.De'Vannon: True. I feel like if he meant his repentance that he, he had the priest commander baptize him and everything, I think just like Jesus did on the cross, and I think Jesus had a murder and a thief up there with him. Yeah. You know, Jesus said that He'll forgive you for anything with the exception of Blast Fing the [00:57:00] Holy Ghost, which is like a, something that I don't think most of us even know how to do, to be quite honest.But and a lot of people might not care Demi: to die. How do we do that? ? Can you tell us step by stepDe'Vannon: They create Little Holy Ghosts and Blast femurs. researched it. I've been there, researched it because I was like, How do you even, I think it has something to do with a very deep and like, kind of like rejection of, of, of God on like, like a, on like a super, super, super, super, super deep. Level that it's, it's very hard to explain and I, and I don't really, I I can't explain it to you cuz even though I've read it, I'm like, okay, I'm reading this and I was trying to read this, trying to understand that the original culture of the Middle East where this came from, and I'm all like, I don't know, this is like a deep, deep, deep level of [00:58:00] disrespect.And if, if you, if you're this, this adverse towards, towards the Holy Ghost, you would probably know. And this is beyond like, well I'm undecided on God or I don't know if I'm gonna believe in him. This is like this is like a Rast rant thing and I cannot explain it because I don't know how to blast feed the Holy Ghost.And after reading it, I just know, okay, I ain't done that and I never will because that's like really far out. Right? You do. So, so so I would just say people watch the show. I don't know if this may be cathartic for people who, whose family members have been murdered on any level to watch other people go through it.I think that there's some healing to be found in it. So watch it the seat and see what you can get out of it. Demi: I would say or not, if you're not comfortable with that kind of stuff, don't, because it's, it's not, it's not for everyone [00:59:00] and I think it might, obviously it brought up a lot of conversation, especially online about victims and all that stuff.If you're not comfortable in that, it might not be good for you to watch. On the other hand, those who aren't probably not that sensitive to it or perhaps have done some sort of, you know, work in, in this, in that kind of realm to be sure you're able to like handle the kind of things, which I thought I was very.Open to this type of stuff. I was like, really gung ho The moment I was like, Yeah, let's watch Daher. Everyone's talking about it, let's do it. That first episode had me like, Oh my God, I can't, I gotta wait. I gotta wait a day. , you know, I gotta watch a comedy after this. I gotta watch it stand up or something.Cause I, I don't think it's for everyone, but I think it's for a specific type of person. I think it, there is some sort of healing in it as well. But also it's a lot of like more learning from, in my opinion. [01:00:00]De'Vannon: Well, if anyone needs a friend or to talk to us about anything that you may come across. We're not mental health professionals, but we do.We are life professionals and we have lived through some experiences. My website is Sex Drugs in jesus.com, and that's where you can reach me. All my information is there, video1836075140: baby. Demi: And mine's dimitri wild.com. But before we let you go, shall we do a little round of red flags? De'Vannon: Yes. Demi: All right. All right. Number one red flag.They keep an mysterious oil drum in their bedroom.De'Vannon: Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he did, he did have a, a red or an oil drum in his bedroom, , and we know enough to know, well, there are the body's in there, but , you know, then they didn't have so much television and, you know, the sharing of knowledge. But yeah, there was [01:01:00] that Demi: red flag for sure. Their apartments smelled like dead animals.De'Vannon: That was a red flag, which Jeffrey always explained the way is rotten meat in the refrigerator. , Demi: they have a fish De'Vannon: tank,but most people haven't smelled a dead decaying corpse. So most people have a frame of reference. But this is not just like, You, you just ran or just had one of those days where you're feeling not so fresh this year?Demi: Wait, you're still talking about the dead animals? . De'Vannon: This is beyond that. So yeah, beyond that it was Thank a Dan. Demi: Dan. Exactly. They have a fish tank.De'Vannon: Well, I suppose I don't see so much fishes around anymore. I don't with a fish tank anymore, but I don't think that that would be a red flag unless all the fish are dead. Which I [01:02:00]think a couple of his were, Yeah, Demi: beta. The beta fish that fight.How about if they live with their grandmother? Red flag? De'Vannon: Depends on the nature of it. You know, if he owns the house. And he's, and he's Sha letting Granny Shack with him then? No. But at that age, and it doesn't have to be, If somebody's going through hard times, I would not judge them for that. But when Granny's coming down, throwing shade and reading Jeffrey for a filth and like clearly, okay, run bitch granny don't like, can, cannot deal with her own grandchild.Why should you And Granny called too. Granny was strong too. Was strong, you know, She was like, Hell no, I'm not leaving, bitch, this is my house.Demi: Last one, they order liver and onions at [01:03:00] dinner.De'Vannon: Growing up in the south we had liver and onions all the time, but it was cow liver. That tip my knowledge, not peopleDemi: I don't think I'd, I don't think I'd like anyone who ordered liver at dinner. Like it would be like weird. It's just gross. De'Vannon: Well, out there in California, y'all don't have southern cuisines, so you don't have like grit, You don't have that. Yeah. Greens and, you know, and shit like that. Maybe if you go down to Roscoe's Chicken and waffles, you might find something close to that.But other than that, you know, something, half the shit we eat down here, you'd probably be like a red flag. Oh Lord, a pig. Lift a pig, lift a pigs foot. Oh hell no. I'm not about to get cut up in this motherfucker. I'm out. . Demi: Yeah, I mean I'm, I definitely grew up in Southern California, so I grew up on like, you know, chicken in pork, but like, that's about as far weird as I got, you know, [01:04:00] liver, not so much.De'Vannon: But they say it's super good for you. It tasted lean. I can't, I don't know that anybody ever became morbidly obese off of eating liver out of all the things that we ate that probably came around in the, like a lower 10%. It's not like I saw it a whole hell of a lot. And I haven't seen it in years, you know, now.But after this show here, maybe people will stop using, eating it all together. Right. Demi: Well that's all the red flags I have. , I guess. Thanks for everyone for tuning in. This has really been really fun. Thanks to Van for doing this with me, This little collab that we got going on. De'Vannon: Thank you. Go for agreeing to come on and for and, and for pushing me to, you know, to get it.I was trying to like, You know, I was like, I can be such a procrastinator, but you know, when Dimi makes up her mind, y is going get done. And I Absolut love [01:05:00] it. She was like, Yes, let's do this shit now. And I was like, Oh, Demi: like what are you doing November? I'm like this is Halloween, girl. This is Halloween.Well again, thank you for doing this with us. Thanks for listening everyone, and we'll see you next time. Bye bye. I.De'Vannon: Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be right. 

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #73: The Resurgence Of Forgotten Trauma, How PTSD Affects Non-Military People & The Important Of Perspective, With Jenn Junod, Host Of The Sh!t You Don't Want To Talk About Podcast

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 20, 2022 62:48


INTRODUCTION: Jenn has a story of her own. As a child, she suffered solitary confinement, physical abuse, mental abuse, sexual abuse, rape, divorce, abortion, cutting, and suicide attempts. Her turbulent background has forged a path to help those who are suffering, ignored and silenced. Sh!t You Don't Want to Talk About is a place people can come to find hope and healing, to know they are not alone, and to finally be heard. Clearly, Jenn's been through plenty of sh!t most people probably don't want to even acknowledge, let alone talk about. She thought she'd dealt with her past, but brain surgery in November 2020 unleashed a tsunami of memories that couldn't be ignored. Working through trauma, depression, anxiety, bipolar type 2, and ADHD will be a lifelong journey. Jenn strives to break the stigma of Sh!t You Don't Talk About and turn it into Sh!t 2 Talk About.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Jenn's Take On The Herschel Walker Hullabaloo ·      Jenn's Homeless Youth Experience·      Consent Matters!!!·      The Resurgence Of Forgotten Trauma·      Be Mindful Of Your Perspective When Bad Things Happen·      How PTSD Affects Both Military And Non-Military Folks·      Living Through A Lifetime Of Surgeries·      Jenn's Smokin' Hot TikTok·      Let's Give Ourselves More Credit·      Let's Accept Our Limits CONNECT WITH JENN: Website: https://www.Shit2talkabout.comLinkTree: https://linktr.ee/shit2talkaboutTikTok: tiktok.com/@shit2talkaboutLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/shit2talkabout/YouTube: https://bit.ly/3BRnT50Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/shit2talkabout/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shit2talkabout/Twitter: https://twitter.com/shit2talkabout  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Jenn Junod, the host of the shit you don't want to talk about podcast is back with me for round two, y'all. Now, in this episode, we're gonna be reaching deeper into Jen's experience with mental and physical health problems. We're also gonna get to hear Jen's take on the current Herschel Walker scandal that's happening right now.Yes. Hmm. Go ahead and listen people. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the Sex [00:01:00]Drugs in Jesus podcast. I'm wearing my shirt tonight that says, Be the light. I hope that Jen and I can shine a little light on y'all's darkness today if you're going through a dark time. Now, Jen is the host of the Shit You Don't wanna Talk About podcast.She's been on the show before and now she's back again to to dig a little bit deeper into her personal journey. Jen, how are you today? Jenn: Well, I, I like to say people really, especially in the tech industry, which is where I'm at now, really compare, like, do you want a zip up hoodie or do you want like a pullover hoodie?And most people want like a zip up hoodie because it's easier to take on and off. And I'm using that as an example of I am wearing my pullover hoodie and I always get them like, Really snug because when I'm not feeling will [00:02:00] go with pep as a good word, when I'm just like not feeling it, I always put on my pull over hoodie because it makes me feel safer and it makes me feel like more snuggled just walking around.And that is how I'm feeling today, that I need a little, give myself kindness and grace and not trying to push myself to have a lot of energy today.De'Vannon: Well, I share the fuck. Appreciate you coming on the show before we mash that record button you were expressing how you were on the fence about whether or not we should postpone or whatever you decided to just push through to show people truth.You know, we don't always have our shit together every day. Hell, I went to the weight loss clinic today to to get like the, one of the weight loss injections and I decided to keep on my fluffy winter flip flops, you know, just to be like, relax and shit. Which is something a fashionist, a diva like [00:03:00]me has never done before.I even wore them last night to go get a massage. And so sometimes just wanna go to the house with fucking roles in your head. Shit. Fuck it. Be done with it. . Jenn: Yes. Yes. I agree. I agree. De'Vannon: And so so y'all, in the Today Show, we're gonna be talking more about Jen and digging deeper into her mental health issue.In the last show she talked about like the abortions and the, the, the, all the abuse and the trauma and the drama. So much drama, you know, that she's been through growing up and, you know, and what prompted her just on her own podcast and the shit you don't want to talk about podcast. All that information go on the show notes.And I know she does her Twitter sphere Jenn: thing stay Yes. Twitter De'Vannon: space in the Twitter sphere, every Tuesday or think most win. And so be sure to catch her there also. And I look forward to the day when her memoir comes [00:04:00] out. I'm just gonna like, speak that into existence. Jenn: It will, it will one De'Vannon: day. And so, okay, so I'm gonna get your opinion on this dude who's been really popular in the news.You were so transparent about your abortions and everything last time. Have you heard of everything that's been going on with Herschel Walker? Jenn: Okay, so y'all, I don't, I live in like a bubble is what I've decided. I don't really know what's going on unless somebody tells me about it. But I'm, I'm Googling and that is the first person that came up.De'Vannon: There is nothing wrong with going to the Google machine and finding out what you need. And so basically this man is running for a Senate seat. He he's one of those backed by Republicans. Pro, pro-life, anti-abortion people and, hi, his, his thing is he's against abortion with no exclusion for rape, incest, anything like that at all.[00:05:00] Just period. But come to find out, he paid for his own abortions back in the day, has a couple of baby mamas and he don't take care of the babies and his own son, who's a social media influence or can't remember that pretty little thing's name right now, but it'll come to me, came out against his own dad.He was like, You need to shut this shit down and stop because you fake his hell. And so from the abortion standpoint, because these women are coming out, going like, one was like, he forced me. He wanted me to get the first abortion, so I did. But the second one, I told him to go fuck off and decided to keep the kid.And so, you know, I just wondered like, what, what, what you think these women might be going through? Seeing the man who wanted him to get the first abortion. Lying, lying to everyone saying, Oh, I don't remember any of this. But he wrote the check to pay for the abortion and then sent the woman a get well soon cardJenn: So it's I actually just listened to our other episode [00:06:00] and interesting timing of listening to that. I, I talked about how during my first termination, I, I felt forced, but it's not like anyone could do anything about it. It was a very I had to think about what that kid would've gone through to do it.And I, I would say for what this human hersel do, dad is doing, I don't think anyone should go into politics and. Forget about what they used to do. I personally think if somebody did something fucked up, then they should own it and say, This is why I just, I changed my ways, first off, second. I can only imagine what it felt like to be [00:07:00] paid to go get an abortion.I have been there. And and then third, I think scariest yet is the fact that there are people in wanting to gain power that want to gain ownership of our bodies. And in my opinion, that's the scariest part in the fact that as someone that has. Like the, the woman that you used as an example, she said yes to the first one that said, fuck off to the second one.I feel I, and again this is just my imagination, but I feel like she would be very empowered because she, she told him fuck off, and that is her taking back her power. And I think it's a very, very complex level of[00:08:00]fear when your, the person that caused your trauma has power not only over you, but over others. And it's, I know for myself it's been. I don't give a fuck what you did to me, but if you do it to someone I care about, if I see you doing it to someone else, I go into like overdrive of, I won't let them feel that way.And I could see some of the women possibly feeling like that, but then also going, I'm glad that I stayed silent because they're so afraid of what might happen to them, what might be taken away, what might be threatened. And there are many, many complexities that I can't even imagine about. Maybe he's secretly paying some of them.And what would happen if [00:09:00] they don't get the paycheck anymore? Are they gonna be able to feed the rest of their kids? What would happen if, you know, if they do talk about that they went through an abortion and now they are succeeding in their life, even though he forced them to do it, Wouldn't that be controversial for them saying that?They were against it, but almost happy they did it. It's, I mentioned this in in the other episode that I don't think anyone could imagine what someone else would feel about it unless they went through it. Because it is, there's so many complexities that go into this, De'Vannon: Well, you're pretty damn good on, on postulating and guessing at the complexities.It's like you're able to really, really put yourself in other people's shoes. So that strong level of empathy that you have is why you're so, such a great host and so great at everything you do, and basically given the world the big warm hugs like you do on a day to day basis. Because I hadn't thought about, [00:10:00] you know, like what if he was, I mean, he's been lying through the whole candidate candidacy, you know, clearly.But what if he really was paying them? You know, he's saying to the camera, I don't know, these bitches, whatever. Mm-hmm. . But really he's been bankrolling them and, and, and out of fear they've kept quiet because that's like a quiet control he's had over him this whole damn time. You never damn know the thing.Jenn: I, I do wanna add one other thing just because I also like to go into conspiracy things because I think partly it's very entertaining for myself is the fact of, so for those of you that may be like me that have no idea who Herschel Walker is and is Googling shit just something that is a very, very uneducated guess could be that if you have a person of color that has been given money and want to set an example, are they doing it and [00:11:00] doing it the way that others are telling them to because they want to be able to show that others can do it.even if it just disrupts their morals,De'Vannon: anything's possible. But what most commentators seem to believe is that Herschel is somebody who is mindless enough to be a yes man for the Republican party if he gets elected at the Senate. Because if you hear him talk, he used to be an NFL player, that he hit his head one too many damn times that he talks like he still has a fucking concussion.He's just like well and so he is the Plato for them. And so that's why, and I agree that's probably why they have him up there. And the thing is, we wouldn't be judging him for his shady pass if he wouldn't have judged the women first. And if, and if he wouldn't be throwing all the women under the bus for, for, for doing this.But what, you know, women can't get pregnant by themselves. Jenn: That's what I was just thinking, , like, you can't do it by [00:12:00] yourself. It's, it's, you know, we're not what Horse. Wait. Star, Star, What are the fishes that like self impregnate themselves? Horse fish, De'Vannon: sea horses, you think? Jenn: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to think about.Sea horses, horse fish. You know that horse too? De'Vannon: I know God. Ze can impregnate himself. He has all the power, so that's why I've always looked up to him. And the, the, the, the other fucked up part, and we're gonna pivot away from politics in just a moment, but you know, this is such a hot button topic right now.The bitch is over on, you know, like Fox News and the conservative commentators, you know, one of them, I can't remember this whole's name, but she was all like, I don't care if he had abortions, if he Aborts Baby E was on television. He was like, I want to get control of the Senate. And she was like, The women are skanks, but you know, The, the Republican party, like the women are gangs.The women [00:13:00] are the trouble, but the men, they get forgiven. Oh, he's changed his past will give him a second chance. But the women, but they're like, Oh no, that ho, You know, And the Republican party isn't even trying to hide this hypocrisy anymore. Yeah. Jenn: That I mean, I started listening to part of your episode on the cold Christianity, and that just reminds me, there's, there's so much that goes into that and I, Yeah.I disagree people, Some people are douche bags is all I can De'Vannon: say bags all the way. Yes. Goddamn fucking motherfucking D bags. So talk to me about when you were homeless before. Jenn: Oh, okay. Just you said we were gonna pivot. We're gonna pivot. I don't talk about it much [00:14:00] because when I look back, I didn't need to be homeless. That is something that I didn't realize then. If I going back then so listen to episode one to, you know, catch yourself up on my story because I'm not gonna repeat it all, it takes forever. , I was, let's see, I was sexually abused from my cousins from the ages of eight to 10.So my junior year of high school, I, the summer before is when I. Was listening to an Adam Sandler song, the shampoo bottle one, and Up the Ass and in the Car did not remember anything about my cousins, and it all flooded back to me. [00:15:00] All of it, just after like six years, didn't think of it. It all came back and my older cousin was now over the age of 18, so, and it had been out of the, out of five years, so it, they were like, We can't do anything.The cops were like, Yeah, whatever. We can't do anything. But my younger cousin, who's two years younger than me was about to start at the same high school I was. So little did I know how not awesome my dad is. Believe me, my mom tried to tell me she did. She, she has tried to tell me. But at that point in my life, I'm 1516 and I'm like, I've always wanted to have a relationship with my dad.I totally can do this. Like, I just wanna move in with him. He's promising me to get a car. He's promising that he'll get me a laptop for school. He promised that he'll finally like, pay for my boob job because, and y'all, I'm pausing there. It's not [00:16:00] just like a 16 year old wanting to get a boob job. My left rest never developed.I was named lo. So like there was a sincere reason why I wanted a boob job that young. Okay. Anyway, moving past that I did not know the type of or believe the type of.Manipulation and abuse that I would be walking into. When my parents were together, my mom was majority of the buffer, and they were together until I was 12, so it'd been four years. And basically the four, those four years, I was avoiding my dad. And so this was all new to me. And I moved in and he took off the facade of this charismatic person.He loved mom me. That is the best way of explaining it. And when I got there, it was [00:17:00] none of the problems is he made, came through one excuse or the other. He started isolating me again, just like he did when I was a child. And I was very, very fortunate in the fact that I. The person I was dating and his friends were like, We're not giving up on Jen.Like that's a bad area. So they would help me like sneak out on the weekends and help like come out and visit me even though I was 45 minutes away and I eventually said, You know what? I'm out. I'm moving. And I just, they all came and got my stuff and I just was like, I'm moving to back to Po. Patello where I was living.And I was, it was the beginning of my senior year at that point. My dad said, Well, you're truant. You're gonna you're gonna be arrested because of this, [00:18:00] cuz you're not going to school. And my boyfriend's at the Time's grandmother was like, you know, she can live with us. And she's like, I'll take power of attorney and take her, make sure she goes to school.Literally to this day, one of these weakest women. Who made such a big difference in my life. I moved in with her and her grandson and I we were very on again, off again, and by probably by Thanksgiving. So beginning of senior year started probably August. So by Thanksgiving we were done. And I thought that because he and I broke up that I could not live with her.I honestly, sincerely thought because if somebody didn't wanna be with me, other people wouldn't love me [00:19:00] and I didn't really have anywhere to go, even though logically looking back, yes, I eventually figured it out. I moved back in with her and stopped this chaos yet My senior year, I spent more time on in new beds than I did in my own car.I spent time becoming whoever anyone wanted me to be, just to not have to sleep in my car that night. And it, it was the type of thing that I don't remember a lot of my senior year there was a lot of drinking and I definitely was promiscuous. It was[00:20:00]also the year I said no, and I got roofied. Luckily the, the guy I was dating, I apparently called him and. He was able to find out from many other people where I was. And I was on a counter in the bathroom with three p three guys trying to undress me. And not even a month later, I went out with my soon to be roommate and she's a drinker and a partier and she, she loved to sleep around.She would brag about it all the time. And I said, No. And this guy kept trying to convince me, Well, it'll be alright. It'll be fun. And I fell asleep and I woke [00:21:00] up to him not listening to my no. And it's a really confusing time in the fact that I was. Sleeping with people to keep a roof over my head. And the two times I said no, people didn't listen.And it had a lot to do with why I couldn't comprehend, why I could have stayed at my ex's grandmother's house. She didn't care. She just wanted to love me. And it was a really difficult time in my life that my dad to this day still hasn't kept any of his promises story for another day. But my mom came up to help me get my license.My mom [00:22:00] helped me get my boob job so I could wear my dress for my senior prompt. She also got me a laptop. And I know we talked about my mom in the previous episode, but she always tried to do what my dad promised and never went through with too. But yeah, , De'Vannon: some people not to be parents. Jenn: So I agree. I agree.I thought I had tissue box in here. Apparently I don't. That's okay. De'Vannon: We have time. You can pause and go get it. We can pause and go get it if you want. Jenn: Sweatshirt. I'm not, You can keep this all the recording. I don't even care. Cause y'all life is fucking messy. It's not pretty. It's not. I mean, yes. Lots of life is beautiful.Yet, if we don't talk about this shit, how are we gonna realize that we're not [00:23:00] alone? De'Vannon: Yeah. Oh my God. A rough time in high school. You know, that's a lot to be going through, you know, then trying to focus on grades and everything like that. I'm so sorry. All this happened to you. I'm excited for the boob job, you know, and you know and so I heard you when you said that you did not need to be homeless.And that resonated with me because I feel the same way when I look back over when I was homeless, you know, in Houston. And so, you know, I had friends, you know, I was, you know, a, a, a veteran, but I didn't know about veterans programs at all. Cause I wasn't going to the VA for anything because in those days they were a nightmare.And And so I, you know, sometimes I think about that and I go, What was the difference? It was in [00:24:00] my mind and the way I perceive things. Mm-hmm. , so I could have called my parents to come and get me. I mean, I could, I could have, I did not have to do that, but I thought I was dying anyway. And so what, what, what is Jen?What are Jen and I saying to telling to you all is to be mindful of your perspective when negative things happen, and sometimes when you, Exactly. Sometimes when you think you're thinking straight, you're really not thinking straight, especially right after something bad has happened. Or even if it's a while, if there something bad is happening, you don't have that shit resolved.So then what can you do? Jen's gonna give you her suggestion, , My suggestion is to have somebody who you lean on or somebody who you can at least go to and be like, Bitch, I'm fucking up. I don't think I'm thinking straight. I need to bounce this idea off of you and be sure, I don't know. What would you, what would you suggest if somebody is in that situation?Jenn: I definitely agree and [00:25:00] I, I've heard the term like a lot or to like keep a journal and I'm like, Bitch, I'm not gonna keep a journal. Fuck that. Like I hate no now, but I am cognizant of. Working on tracking my patterns. So whatever way you track your patterns, I say that in the fact of I'm currently job hunting and I had a great day yesterday.I don't even remember what day it was. Like I had interviews that were going great. I had a guest on the show that was phenomenal. Like literally, everything is going so good and I'm miserable. Why am I miserable? I don't know. I have no idea why. I know because I keep track of these things that I do get depression.I am bipolar, type two, I am. These [00:26:00] things just happen and I've learned that. I need to be able to know, okay, am I just gonna check out and. Sit and play video games is, that's what's gonna help me get through this. Is it I need to go for a walk? Is it I need to have call one of my best friends? Is it I need to tell Tyler that I need all the cuddles in the world.What is it that I need to get through this? Because right now I feel alone, even though logic shows me I'm not alone. And it's very, very difficult to realize that. And I would say a big step of it is just tracking your patterns, because that will show you who am I happy around? Are these people that I'm [00:27:00] associating with?Am I miserable around them or am I happy around them? Do I feel like shit when I eat this certain food? It's weird. I found out that I am gluten intolerant. Like I can't eat gluten, but y'all, it fucks with me. So I know not to eat gluten. How do I feel if I don't exercise for a while? Does it really help or is it just because I wanna do it cuz everybody else says it?Like, what are things, How, how do I do life naturally and what are things that I want to improve on? Or what are things that I'm like, you know, fuck it. I am a sweetaholic so I'm gonna keep dark chocolate chips in the house instead of candy because if it's candy it'll be gone in a day. That's just who I am.I can live with that. De'Vannon: I'm a sweet aholic too. And I there's a basket I keep in the corner of the, like by like [00:28:00] by the patio door. And I found that if I just throw all the sweet shit in there, I don't. I won't go and reach for it, like it's in the pantry or somewhere like eye level. So this is down on like cat level and, and so , so these for me to forget about it.And then, so every now and then I'll remember, oh, there's a bucket of sweets over there. That way I don't feel deprived, but I've also placed it out of punch as a reach of myself. I Jenn: like it. I like it. I'm gonna do that without, I'll try it. Well, I'll see if that happens. And that's another, that actually brings up a really good point is once you find out these patterns, or even if you're not sure what they are, just trying something on seeing if it works.Like I have no idea if what you said is gonna work for me, putting it in the corner like I am, be like, Oh, D was right, this is like perfect. Or this is shit. It doesn't work for me. I'm not gonna do it anymore. But I tried it on to see if it's a [00:29:00] tool that will work for me. De'Vannon: Now, would you suggest that sort of strategy with dealing with all of the issues that you've talked to, talked about today?You know, what? If somebody has a barrage of negativity that their mind had closed off, you know, shut off the memory because of it was so traumatic that their brain cut it off of them. And what if it comes back? What do they find themselves in a, a rape situation? You know, do you recommend these sort of tools or what?Jenn: That one I think,De'Vannon: I mean, of course they can always reach out to you. You don't think decided every thing. Yeah, no, absolutely. Jenn: It's, it's the fact of dealing with ptsd and I know that so many people thought that it was only military that went through it. And I do not wanna take away from what our veterans have [00:30:00]gone through.Any, any force because even if you don't get shipped abroad, the military goes through some dark shit just through bootcamp and PTSD can affect us all in its posttraumatic stress disorder. And I say that as I did not realize I had PTSD until I had my brain surgery because that's when all my like memory slid it back.And I started having a lot more body reactions in the fact of you bring up the rape victim. I, the majority of my abuse was from people I trusted when, from the ages of eight to 10. And so if somebody that I trust tries to touch me at times, I go into fight or flight, it's very fucking annoying. and I'm still working through it yet by going to therapy, by going [00:31:00] to group help.Those are things that really help me get through it. It's also something that is not gonna go away anytime soon probably. Or it might go away for a while and it might come back cuz mental health is like, you know, it's not linear. It likes to be all over. And I would say just if it happens, especially if it happens in public, if it happens when you're driving, if it happens in those types of situations.First, please get yourself to safety. Please try to think about that first. No matter what is happening, it's not always possible to do this yet. Please get to safety and then who cares what the fuck you look like. If you are pulled over somewhere safe and having a meltdown, if you're in the middle of a grocery store having a meltdown, who the fuck cares if you are safe?Nobody's gonna hit you. Nobody's gonna run into you. Nobody's gonna do anything to you. [00:32:00]This is not always feasible, though. This can happen when you're doing other things and I don't know the resources to that. I'm happy to go look it up, but this is why I highly suggest at least having a relationship with a therapist you trust.Because I stopped going to therapy. Oh goodness, probably January this year and, but I still have my therapist number. So if shit hits the fan, if something happens, I can be like, Yo therapist, I need help. Or my family members know, I don't know what fuck just happened to Jen. She just like melted. Could you come like, Put her back together, please.De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. . Yeah, it's come and put me back together, Lord Jesus. Yes. So I do, I I would always recommend journaling and all your suggestions are phenomenal and so heartfelt and I appreciate the fuck out of them. And again, people can still reach out to you and [00:33:00] see what, we'll see what can be done see what can happen.I've started doing mdm, a assisted therapy with a social worker and also cell assignment therapy with a social worker for like my ptsd, ocd, anxiety and all of that. I recommend some of this hallucinogenic therapy to y'all cuz the, the drugs they prescribe. But in these clinics for me, re react very negatively with my system that I get from like a psychiatrist and shit like that.The hallucinogenics I've had a more positive results with. And so I walk away from them like I, when I've been on those trips. I don't feel like so out of body. I, my mind was just still, And for me, that is a strong deliverance because my mind is usually not still. And so that quietness followed me out of the therapy.And it's the same thing with me and like CBD gummies, because my body doesn't react to smoking weed at all, no matter the strand. But it does re [00:34:00] respond to the gummies. And so I take it as like a form of therapy. And I find that the quietness, my mind remembers it when I'm no longer under the influence of the drug.Jenn: I, I wanna add to that too in the fact that, as we were saying before, do what finds best for you. I'm biotech type too, which I found out is like, if I take drugs, it doesn't fuck me up in a good way. It fucks with my head bad. And so if I smoke weed, I'm probably ki crying in the bathtub. It's, it's not cool.Like I've been, I've talked to multiple the psychiatrists and I'm like, So I kinda wanna do lsd. And they're like, Please don't. It's just going not in the fact of like, please don't in the fact that, you know, all this is experimental. But because they're like, studies show that if you're bipolar type one or type two, you have [00:35:00] adverse effects to drugs because your brain already, the chemistry in it will not react properly like most people do.And I'm like, Oh, that makes sense because I've tried different things and it fucks with me where you talked about that you don't take the medications that a psychiatrist may prescribe. Those help me, but I know that they can fuck up other people. So please try and like have a. A buddy and on to go like, make sure you're doing okay, no matter which one you're trying.De'Vannon: Appreciate, sister. And so I heard you mention, you, you mentioned earlier like it was, it really, really hurt you because of people you, you trusted were, were some of the ones who had turned on you and And I just wanna to just pivot for just another, just another quick pivot and just us sin heart. Heartfelt warmth and love for people who feel that way [00:36:00] towards the church.We're not gonna go down a, a whole religious thing cause we did that on the last show and I appreciated it deliciously and delightfully. So, because, you know, we go to churches, and I was thinking about this earlier, you know, the only time we saw Jesus, like get up in arms, he tied that cord together and went in the temple and brand the people out who were like taking advantage of people, you know, in the house of God.And I was thinking, you know, he didn't go chasing down homosexuals or women who want abortions. And he didn't even much go chase the people who were swindler and cheaters outside of the church. He went into the church because it's bad enough that it's happening. But in a place like that where it's not supposed to happen, Is like the thing I think that really pissed him off.And so whenever we are expecting love from a place where it's supposed to come and we get hate, rejection, and pain, it's a more bitter pill to swallow. And so for all of you who have ever been heartbroken by somebody who you expected to treat you right, I'm sorry. I send you [00:37:00] love and peace and yes, fuck you, Lakewood Church because you were the ones who broke my heart and did that shit to me after our long relationship with each other.You mentioned that brain surgery. Tell, tell me why you had to have brain surgery. Jenn: Sure. So I think going through all my surgeries might make it a make a bit more sense. I am 2022, I am 34 and I had surgery number 10 this year. So me and surgery is not that scary. Let's see if I can remember all of my, I don't know if I can do them in order.Maybe I can. Okay. We're gonna see if I can do this. All right. So, Nope. I got, when I was little, little kid, I got tubes in my ears, which I didn't know was considered a surgery, but I guess it is. So I'm gonna count it. And then when [00:38:00] I was 13, I I was getting chronic bronchitis and they were noticing that my tonsils were causing it, but it's very, very dangerous to take out your tonsils when you have a any lung infections.So, but I wasn't gonna get better cuz I'm hardcore asthma and they they did it and I coded, which is a really weird experience because I like, remember looking down at myself. Very bizarre. Anyway, so that happened. I had my tonsils taken out, and then I had my gallbladder taken out, and then I had my first boob surgery when I was 17.And then I had an umbilical hernia, which basically because I [00:39:00] got my gallbladder out through my belly button, the scar tissue caused a hernia on where my umbilical cord would've been with my belly button. So that's why it's called an umbilical hernia. And it didn't go through. So I got another surgery for that.Oh, I'm missing one. They couldn't pull my teeth with me awake for my wisdom teeth, so they had to sedate me for it, like all the way out, sedated to what? What else am I thinking of? Oh, sinus and no surgery cuz I couldn't breathe out of my nose, brain surgery and in another boob job because it wasn't very good at when I was 17, so I finally got them nice.10. Yeah. So brain surgery was 2020 not the biggest deal. Me and going to [00:40:00] surgery is not a big deal. I'm just like, Oh, I have to have another, Okay, whatever. I've grown up around doctor's offices because I was su such a sick child. I was constantly hospitalized for my asthma and I got pneumonia a lot and bronchitis a lot.I was a really fun kid and it was around the age of three to four that my skull. Started forming a bump on my right temple and my mom was like, The fuck is going on with my daughter. So we lived in Phoenix at the time, and she took me to the hospital. They did MRIs and CAT scans and all that, and they found that my I had OID cysts on my brain.And an OID cyst is CYS is just like fluid. [00:41:00] It's just like a, if you take a bubble and it's on my the OID cyst is on the, between the brain and the spider webbing around your brain. And so they found it when I was like two or three, and they were like, Yo, don't worry about it. Most children, if they get it, they don't really know where I got it from, but they're like, Most children will grow out of it.Don't worry. So fast forward till I'm like eighth grade, so like 12, 13. And I'm in my mom's room for some reason, and I look in the mirror and I finally realize like, why is my temple so weird? And I'm like staring at myself like, What the fuck? Like as like a 13 year old, like this was mind blowing. I didn't know what it was, but it didn't really ever affect me other than I was like, I have this out.It looks really weird. I hate [00:42:00] it. Not a big deal. Very cosmetic, whatever, around the age. 20 something like, give or take. A year or two I started getting really, really bad pressure, headaches where I would have to tie a scarf around my head, cut off circulation to everything else, and. Like try to get rid of the pressure on my right temple.That happened a few times every year, maybe like not consistent enough to do anything about it or be concerned. I just thought I have all these medical conditions, I'm just probably a freak and it's another one of those things. I don't care. And in 2020 it started happening weekly. Okay, this is weird. And you can't really do anything.Like you can't work, you can't do much. And I was getting to the point where I had like this [00:43:00]giant jar of change that I would lay down on the bed with my head on the pillow and put change on my head to put like enough weight on it to try to get rid of the pressure. And I'm like, Okay, I gotta get this taken care of.Like this is, this is. Causing issues. And I'm like, Okay, I'll make an appointment, blah, blah, blah. I made an appointment with a neurologist and they're like, Yo, bro, try taking these like migraine medicines. Okay. Didn't fix it whatsoever. And then they were like, Don't worry about it. It's fine. A reference or nothing, don't worry.And so I'm, this is when my sister started working with me and were driving to work together and I'm driving and I have to pull over because my vision went away and I couldn't see all I could. It was just like, went all [00:44:00] black and the pressure was so bad, like I'm crying because it's just hurting so bad.So she finishes driving us to work and my partner came to pick me up cuz she needed to stay in work and they finally were like, Okay, cool. You can go see a surgeon. Well, I'm back in Phoenix at this point. And the same borrow barrow brain surgeons are in Phoenix or super dope, highly suggest them. I bring in my records to them cuz I still have the records, which, Oh yeah.Give me a second. You wanna see this? This is cool. Okay.Okay. I have the original scans from when I was a kid. Let's. I don't know how I'm gonna do this. De'Vannon: You probably have to have a light Jenn: behind it. I know. I'm like trying to think if I can do, Oh, I kiss the like, like this. Eh, eh, let me turn on my flashlight, bro. [00:45:00] Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So, Oh, see, you can see where my eyeballs are, right?Yeah. And you see that giant, that big thing? Yeah. And then you can see one in the back of my head too. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. These are from when I was a kid.De'Vannon: Okay. And they just like left that there. Yeah, Jenn: because normally they go away naturally. Normally assist is like no big deal. So that's the one that's still there. It's actually grown. And so , I get so excited I bring these into the neurologist or the neurosurgeon with me and I'm like, Look, And they're like, We're not gonna do anything about it.No. They're like, It'll just go away. This isn't normal. Like, or this, These are routine things. No big deal. So they go and they're like, Hey, go get lidocaine shots. See if that helps. So I have to wait until one of these things normally go. Then I have to go into the doctor and get a lidocaine shot, which [00:46:00] is just numbing serum.And so they put a ton of lido and I'm like, It's not going away. And so it's not the pain at this point that's hurting. Like, yes, it hurts, but I'm crying because they can't figure it out. And at this point I'm thinking, no one will believe me. So I think I'm stuck with this for the rest of my life. But after further, they actually took it to like the board of Surgeons at the hospital.And they were like, Yo, like this isn't normal, that she gets headaches from this. Like she's going through so much. So they did a experimental surgery. What they did is if you think of a lake and then you think of this like randomly fluid as my river, as a river, they took my lake of a cyst and created a scar tunnel into the regular, like brain fluid that just chills in your brain.So as of it's [00:47:00] about two years now, it'll be two years on November 2nd I've had less than half a dozen headaches from it again. So it seems to be working. But that area, what they didn't know, and there's not a lot of research on it, is that having surgery there, because all of your long term memories are right around your right temple, like a little bit behind.And that is where they cut into me and they had to do the surgery. So yeah, it was like, Hey, you're gonna have brain surgery, but you're also gonna have to remember all the fucking shit you ever went through. And yeah, that was, that was fun.De'Vannon: Are you glad that the [00:48:00] memories were released to the extent that you are able to work on processing through it, or would you have rather it stayed hidden?Jenn: It's like when people say that they're grateful for what they went through because it makes them who they are. Yeah, I agree with that, but I never wanted to go through all this shit, you know, like it's not like I wanted all of that to happen. So it's like a both, like I think if I didn't remember all of it, I would have been ignorance as bliss.But because I did go through all of it, I also found my voice to be able to advocate for others and that is more important to me. Yet it took me, realizing what I [00:49:00] went through to be able to find the strength to do it. Yet my ignorant is bliss side of me would've been totally fine, not realizing that my entire life.Yeah, it's like you, you know, I, I like the harder path I normally choose it. Not meaning to because I'm very stubborn, but, so it's a, it, it happened, De'Vannon: it worked out. I appreciate it. That's a positive perspective over. I encourage everyone to try their best to find something good out whatever it is that you went through.I agree with you in terms of my own history. Had there been another way, Lord, but it didn't go that way, so fuck it. Here we are. Let's move on. Hallelujah. To have and praise now since in staying better in adding to the problems that are already there. Yep. So you mentioned something that we're gonna pivot as we begin to wrap up here.Y'all, this bitch. Has probably the best [00:50:00] TikTok channel that I've ever like swed over, her outfit she has on the sequin and the glitter and the gl. It's just so powerful and it's so encouraging and it's so inspiring. And I mean, it's like, it's like, it's like on your TikTok channel you look like, so you like God extracted all of the pride spirit from every gay person in the world and just like put it in you and then you're the living manifestation of what it means to just be happy and acceptingAnd Jenn: so thank you. And I will say part of that was the person that was marketing and just being able to read what I wanted to do. Like she gave me the topic, but I was able to know how to make it happen. I, those videos are old because I haven't posted on TikTok or Instagram. The podcast is kind of on pause because I don't know how to do that myself.[00:51:00]Like if somebody says Jen, like it was, and I hate that I didn't know this, that it was National Indigenous Day recently. And I was like,Why did I not know that? Why did I not know that we changed laws from Columbus Day to be National Indigenous Day? Why are we not making it better known? And I also, you mention about how I post about Juneteenth and I am very proud of that post. Yet at the same time, I'm very disappointed in myself. That I didn't make a post for Hispanic Heritage Month or for Indigenous People's Day, but I also have to, even though I'm disappointed, I have to be able to say, Jen, you're one person.[00:52:00]You, you're only one person. Yes, I can make a difference. I also only have people have said spoons in the mental health area. I only have so much bandwidth. I only have so much that I can give. And if I half asked any any everything, people aren't gonna get what they deserve. And that's why I've put everything on pause.Now. If anybody wants to help me on social media, you are welcome into my life. I'm just gonna put that out there. Someone wants to come into my life and help on social media. That's, that's basically, I just need someone to be like, Jen, post this. Like, get the ideas outta my head and help me. I need somebody to hold my hand.But I, I appreciate where you were going with that. I just wanted to almost, it's almost like self deprecating where I'm like, I have to call myself out on that because I, I do still feel that disappointment in myself. De'Vannon: Well, [00:53:00] I mean, you already said it. You're only one person. I'll add to that, that you're, you cannot necessarily stand up for every group of people all the time, and perhaps it's not meant for you two.So whatever was meant to happen did happen. Wherever. Wasn't, didn't. And the beautiful thing about social media, podcasting, writing books, those things are ever green in the sense that even though those videos might be old, they can still have a positive influence on somebody today, which is one of the main reasons why we do what we do.Because, you know, social media work, podcasting is like a living testimony when we're dead and gone. People can still go back and find this. And it won't matter how old it is, what they're gonna be concerned about is, can I relate to this and can it help me? And what we are going through now is the same thing some people went through before.The same people, the same thing people are gonna go through after. So give yourself a break. Girlfriend, you doing the damn thing. And so thank you. And so shout out to Cardi B. [00:54:00] Yes. I love her. And so so she has an incredible, So I think, I think social media is great. I don't care. I don't think I even noticed that it was outdated because it was so captivating.It was so captivating. I was just so intrigued. And so one of, though, you were talking about like anxiety and depression and you mentioned just a few seconds ago about how you, everything was going great when you were searching for the job and everything, but you were still sad. A person who's super close to me in my life.Gets that way. Sometimes I get that way very, very rarely, and when I do, there's a scripture in the book of Psalms where David, I believe is talking and he's having one of those types of days and he's all like, Why are you cast down my soul and why are you quid within me? He was like, I'm sad. I don't know why I feel sad.Yeah. That's how I found it in the scripture. I know not everybody is [00:55:00] spiritual and scriptural, you know, like I am, but it really, really sparked with me when you mention that because sometimes our emotions betray our reality. Mm-hmm. , either way, a person can be manic and shit can just be like really terrible and they could be overly optimistic and I'm all like, No girl.This is serious. You need to calm down and deal with this shit. Then in the other hand, everything is great and yet they're sad with the blinds closed and under the covers, so. Jenn: It's, it's definitely something that I posted it becausefirst off, it fucking sucks anxiety attacks, depression being bipolar, type two being bipolar, like, mental health struggles are, are not talked about and accepted enough. And I, I do want to [00:56:00] mention that there, I, I wanna talk about my own struggles. Yes, I do also wanna call out that systemically there are marginalized communities that have to deal with mental health issues even more because of microaggressions and things that a white folk don't necessarily deal with.And I. I wanna call that out because that is something that many people won't acknowledge that they're going through something because they see it as racism from others. That that's the emotion that's coming up is because of that. I say that because anxiety and depression and anything that has changes our moods without our desire to [00:57:00] ptsd, we, they don't, they're not our front.They really, as we were talking earlier, really cause us to think things that are untrue. And it can be, yes, exercise and diet can help. Other people do have success with that. Some people don't. Some people need experimental drugs. Some people need prescribed drugs. Some people need therapy. Some people need journaling.Some people need kickboxing and boxing to be able to beat the shit outta something. It's different for all of us, and I want others to see that they're not alone going through it. Because I, I don't remember what I said in that post because I was crying. It was, it was fun but it was where we,[00:58:00]we don't expect it. So what do we do when it happens? How do we prepare ourselves if it happens? How do we have these conversations? If I am having a panic attack and. Van and I call you, what do you do? Like what are you supposed to do that that's not something that's taught in school. If I'm having a panic attack, like that's not something that if I'm becoming dis, having coping mechanisms that are unhealthy, such as self harm that friendships or family is taught to deal with, and this is really why I want to share these journeys because show that it happens before it may happen, but also be able to have people go, Oh shit, I went through that like a year ago.Maybe I should go look into getting help or [00:59:00] resources or builder tool belts. Because without it, we we're kind of just a hot fucking mess in the fact that this is when bad situations happen in my opinion. De'Vannon: Hey, I think your opinion is a golden opinion, and I encourage to listen to your opinion. I commend you on caring enough to make a Juneteenth video like you did.And she also has a, an ally video because Jen is a friend of the gays darling. Yes. The need, expect her to find her at any of your prides. You never know where she might end up next. So Jenn: it's true. I, well, I wanna go to all the prides. I really wanna go to Atlanta. That is where I hope I get to go next year.Like that would De'Vannon: be fun. You know what? Whenever you wanna plan it, you know, my boyfriend is from outside of Atlanta, and so I be in Atlanta like a lot. Yay. And then I just heard that they have an iowaska retreat thing outside of Atlanta, and so that's one of my next things to try for therapy. And [01:00:00] so yes, we can definitely plan in Atlanta Pride because their, their prides like happens in October.You know, they wait until not in June. Oh, yay. So and so so that was, you know, that pretty much wraps us up. I, I wanted to do this deeper, this deeper dive with you. I thank you for your transparency. The website is www dot shit, the number two talk about.com. She has a link tree also shit to talk about.And all of this will go in the show notes. The podcast is shit you don't want to talk about with the great hostess, as I, as I say in my Sian accent. And so my dear, there is anything you'd like to say to the world. Any last words? Closing comments, remarks, salutations, whatever. Go on. Jenn: I do. And that is beautiful.Humans. As shitty as it is, you'll get through this and you got this. It's not the end of the world, no [01:01:00] matter how much it seems. It is cause y'all. We're just a few of the people that can tell you that you can get through it. We've been through some shit, but it's also, you don't have to go through it.Like we said, there's other ways too.De'Vannon: All right. Thank you so much for coming on the show, my girl. You wrapped it up nicely. We'll see you next time. Thank you. Bye. Bye.Thank you all so much for taking time to listen to the Sex Drugs and Jesus podcast. It really means everything to me. Look, if you love the show, you can find more information and resources at SexDrugsAndJesus.com or wherever you listen to your podcast. Feel free to reach out to me directly at DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com and on Twitter and Facebook as [01:02:00] well.My name is De'Vannon, and it's been wonderful being your host today. And just remember that everything is gonna be right. 

Liberate Your Soul - With Kelly Pierce
134. Intangibles: Processing Emotions to Free Up Space

Liberate Your Soul - With Kelly Pierce

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 16, 2022 35:20


Soooo many people tell me they are not only afraid to process or feel their emotions, but they have also avoided it so long they don't know how! Avoiding our feelings is not totally unnatural, it's just the brain doing what it thinks it is supposed to do. Today I share with you not only the “why” it's important to move through the emotions, but what happens and an easy process HOW! Yes! Something you can do at home with very little training or accoutrements. Ready to really go deep and let go of the oversize emotional baggage? It's your lucky day! Two sessions plus consultation at a fraction of the cost for amazing return! Head over to www.quantumhighways.com. You can find this special deal under www.quantumghighways.com/plansand scroll to Healing Intensives. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/kelly-ann-pierce/support

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus
Episode #72: Wrongfully Convicted Of Murder & Rape At Age 17, The Treachery Within The U.S. Criminal Justice System & Turning Darkness Into Light, With Jeffrey Deskovic, Esq., M.A.

Sex, Drugs, and Jesus

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 13, 2022 78:49


INTRODUCTION: Jeffrey Deskovic, Esq., MA, is an internationally recognized wrongful conviction expert and Founder of The Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice, which has freed 11 wrongfully convicted people and helped pass 3 laws aimed at preventing wrongful conviction. An advisory board member of the coalition group It Could Happen To You which has passed 6 laws, Jeff also serves on the Global Advisory Council for Restorative Justice International. His motivation is that he served 16 years in prison-from age 17-32 for murder and rape before he was exonerated by DNA Testing. INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Details On The Wrongful Conviction Of Jeffrey Deskovic·      How Police Manipulate Children·      Mental Health Implications Of Life Behind Bars·      Being Abandoned By Blood Family While Incarcerated·      Missing Out On Life While In Jail·      Food In Prison – The First Meal After You Get Out·      Degenerate Healthcare In Prison ·      How The Innocence Project Used DNA Testing To Free Jeffrey·      Adjusting To Life After Incarceration ·      Jeffery's Non Profit & Humanitarian Work CONNECT WITH JEFFREY: Website: https://www.deskovicfoundation.org/ Documentary: https://amzn.to/3ejnel3Crowdfunding Site: https://www.patreon.com/DeskovicSpecial Article: https://bit.ly/2VuMyK3Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thejeffreydeskovicfoundation/Twitter: https://twitter.com/DeskovicFDNYouTube: https://bit.ly/3euncXn  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comWebsite: https://www.DownUnderApparel.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonPinterest: https://www.pinterest.es/SexDrugsAndJesus/_saved/Email: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      OverviewBible (Jeffrey Kranz)o  https://overviewbible.como  https://www.youtube.com/c/OverviewBible ·      Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed (Documentary)o  https://press.discoveryplus.com/lifestyle/discovery-announces-key-participants-featured-in-upcoming-expose-of-the-hillsong-church-controversy-hillsong-a-megachurch-exposed/ ·      Leaving Hillsong Podcast With Tanya Levino  https://leavinghillsong.podbean.com  ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net VETERAN'S SERVICE ORGANIZATIONS ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org ·      What The World Needs Now (Dionne Warwick): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHAs9cdTqg INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Jeffrey Deskovic was wrongfully convicted for the murder and rape of classmate Angela Correa back in 1989 when Jeffrey was only 17 years old. The man was finally released from prison 16 whole years later after DNA testing proved his innocence due to work done by the Innocence Project. Now I've been locked.Several times that I can't imagine 16 fucking [00:01:00] years y'all let alone for some shit I did not do. In this episode, Jeffrey's gonna get real and raw with us about how this wrongful conviction altered the course of his life.Took away his youth in childhood.Rob him of coming of age experiences and continues to impact him to this day. Please listen.Jeffrey Desco, Esquire cause he's a fabulous attorney is an internationally recognized wrongful conviction expert and founder of the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice, which has freed as of today, 11 wrongfully convicted people and help pass three laws aimed at preventing wrongful conviction.An advisory board member of the coalition group, It could happen to you, which has passed six laws. Jeff also serves on the Global [00:02:00] Advisory Council for Restorative Justice International. His motivation is that he serves 16 years in prison from the age se, from age 17 to 32. For wrong, for, for murder and rape before he was exonerated by DNA testing.Jeffrey, how are you Jeffrey: today? I'm wonderful. I'm I feel great. Thanks for having me on here. D. De'Vannon: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so I learned about Jeffrey from Sean Murphy, who is the host of the Above the Bar podcast. And Sean is also a fellow military veteran just like I am. And so when I heard about what had happened, Jeffrey, me, having been , been to jail a bunch of time for shit, I actually did doYou Jeffrey: were rightfully convicted. You were rightfully convicted then. Well, De'Vannon: one time, no one the other, other three times maybe. Just depends on how you wanna look at it. . So, but, but I had a, [00:03:00] we were gonna talk about some of that, but mainly you. But, you know, going through the, the criminal justice system is, is an eyeopening experience, whether you're right or wrong or kind of in between.And so you learn a whole lot. No documentary, no no amount of watching law in order. And cops and murder she wrote or anything like that is the same as when you have those damn handcuffs on you and they put, and they slam that damn door, and then you don't come outside into the sun or the light or the wind or the moon or nothing for however time.Okay? Nothing, nothing can take the place of that feeling. It's just terrible and treacherous. So an individual by the name, I hope I'm saying this right, Jia Wertz, Jeffrey: a Jia Wertz. Yes. De'Vannon: Gia words created a documentary, which the link will be included in the showing notes as everything always is about, about Jeffreys experience and it's called Conviction.And this came out in 2020. I watched it on Amazon. And I [00:04:00] will conclude the Amazon link in in the show notes. So, so many of us know somebody who's gone to jail. Or a lot of us have been to jail. Sometimes we've done the shit, sometimes we haven't done the shit. In your own words, Jeffrey, tell us who you are and, and again, just whatever you'd like to say about yourself.Jeffrey: Well, I, I'm, I'm an attorney who's an advocate whose life is dedicated to freeing people that are wrongfully imprisoned in the same position, which I was. And with a, with a equal concern at, at preventing what happened to me from other, having other people, hence doing the policy work. But as you mentioned, you know, my motivation is that I did spend 16 years in prison from, you know, being arrested at 16, turning 17 by the time the trial rolled around and being wrongfully in prison from age 17 to 30.So the, the year is 1990. We're in peak skill, which is in Westchester County, New York. So it's the suburbs population is [00:05:00] approximately 25,000 people. Murders were pretty rare there. So when this murder happened, it created this atmosphere of fear, of rumor, paranoia. Parents were concerned with their own safety and safety of their children.I was quiet into myself in high school. Some of the kids told the police they might wanna speak to me, cuz I guess their thought was whoever's quiet to themselves commit ous crimes. And so that's how I got on a police radar. And from there reinforcing factors, I was a sensitive teenager. I had an emotional reaction to the death of a classmate.And the cops thought that that was suspicious also. And then they got a psychological profile from the N Y P D, which claimed to have the psychological characteristics of the actual perpetrator. So, reinforcing factor, So for about six weeks, the police play this cat and mouse game with me, in which half the time they talk to me like I'm a suspect.And when they push you hard and I become frightened and I want to get away from them [00:06:00]they switch it up. And Jeff is this junior detective helper theme was developed. And so kids won't talk freely around us, but they will around you. Let us know if you hear anything stop in from time to time that it asked me opinion questions and congratulate and my opinion was correct.I be, I began to look at the officer who was pretending to be my friend as like a father figure. And then plus when I, the, before I was a teenager, the career I fantasized about having was to be a cop when I grew up and. I think somehow or another the cops learned that and that was how they developed that whole theme.So eventually they got me to agree to take a lie detector test. So I went to the police station for the test on a school day. So my mother and grandmother thought I was in school. They didn't call around looking for me. They drove me across county lines 40 minutes away from taking me from peak skill to Brewster, which is in Putin County.Now I'm dependent on the police. I have no idea of where I [00:07:00] am or no independent way of getting back. I don't understand this four page brochure that they've explained about how the polygraph works, but I figure, well, I'm there to help the police. So what does it matter? Let's just get on with it from there.The polygraph is who was a Putnam County Sheriff's investigator, but he's dressed like a civilian. He never identifies himself as a law enforcement. He never raised my mind rights. He gives me con, countless cups of coffee to get me nervous, and then he launches into his third degree tactics. So he raises his voice at me.He. Conveyed my personal space. He kept asking me same questions over and over again. And he kept that up for six and a half to seven hours. And eventually he said, What do you mean you didn't do it? You just told me through the test that you did. We just want you to verbally confirm it. And when he said that to me that really shot my fear through the roof.And then the cop pretended to be my friend, comes in the room and says, Look, they're gonna harm you. I've been holding them off. I can't do that any longer. You have to help yourself look, just tell them what they [00:08:00] wanna hear. You go home, you're not gonna be arrested. So being young, naive, frightened, 16 years old, not thinking about the long term, I was only concerned about my own safety in the moment.So I, and I was desperate to get outta there. So I made up a story based on the information they gave me, the course, the interrogation that day and six weeks run up to it. By the time it was said and done, I had collapsed on the floor in the fetal position, crying uncontrollably. Obviously I was arrested.So that was, that was that part of it. I mean, the DNA didn't match me before the trial. But then the prosecutor got the medical examiner commit fraud and he claimed that he remembered that he forgot to show to, to document medical evidence, which he said showed the victim was promiscuous. So that allowed the prosecutor to argue, well, that's how the DNA doesn't match you, but yet you're still guilty.He mentioned someone by name that he claimed that slept with the victim. He never had a DNA test result from that person. He never called [00:09:00] him as a witness. He just made the unsupported argument to the jury, and my lawyer essentially didn't defend me. Now, he didn't call my alibi. He didn't question the medical examiner.He didn't explain the jury what the DNA not matching me, man. He didn't use that to cha to challenge the confess. And he should have never represented me because the first, the other youth that the prosecutor was falsely saying and lept with the victim was represented by another member of the Legal Aid Society.So that prevented us from asking him for a test for us, from calling him as a witness. And the end result was, I was found guilty. I was given a 15 a life sentence. And you know, I, I ultimately served 16 years in prison. I lost seven appeals. I got turned down for parole cuz I maintained my innocence rather than expressing remorse and take and responsibility.And ultimately I was exonerated, like you said, due further DNA testing through the data bank, which identified the actual perpetrator whose DNA was [00:10:00] there because he killed a second victim three and a half years later. So my charges were dismissed on actual innocence grounds and he was arrested and convicted.And so that's the, that's the story. I mean, I kind of found a purpose in life doing this work so, Okay. De'Vannon: Thank you for that breakdown. I'm sorry you went through all of that, but I'm happy that you're, that you've taken what happened to you and now you're using it to help other people. So, so I'm gonna go back and walk back through some of this.So the so this is in peak skill. Tell us like what state this is so we can get like a geographical frame of reference. Jeffrey: It's New York State, and it's the suburbs. It's about maybe 50 minutes from Manhattan De'Vannon: North. All right. And so, so like Jeffrey said, this is 19 90. The, the, the, the victim in question, her name was Angela Ko Korea.Mm-hmm. . And and she was laying on November 15th, [00:11:00] 1989. And then, so do you, do you think that your attorney, that the one who really sucked was maybe bought off or somehow in on this plot to get you convicted for Jeffrey: this? Yeah. You know, I, I think, but can't prove that, you know, I, I think that he, he was cooperating with them.I mean, at that time a lot of people were going back and forth from the DA's office to Legal aid and from legal aid to the DA's office. So he might, he might have been angling for that. Sure. I, I, that thought has crossed my mind because I've met a lot of lawyers since I've been home and they all, they all wondered like, you know, who represented me at the trial and when I mentioned, you know, his name, they were all rather surprised cuz he has a, you know, reputation of being a good lawyer.They've tried cases against them and they can't believe he turned in that performance. Mm-hmm. . De'Vannon: Yeah, I agree with you. I think it's really like fucked up the way that the police like zone in on people like that and, and at that point their jobs go from [00:12:00] being professional to. For the better of society. And it's like they get so personal, you know, it's like they take it personal, what they believe that you have done.So to to, to, to hone in on a teenager like that, you know, clearly they were under pressure from society to find somebody to arrest. Okay. It's super fucked up that they thought you, I guess like an email kid. Like most teenagers are fairly emotional and maybe you had some anxiety or whatever going on. And we understand a lot more about mental health now than we did back then, but the rottenness that prevails inside police departments hasn't changed.They, I think they take their power for granted. And and I mean, the way that they handled you like that they lied . Right. You know, and it, it never seems to amaze me the way police feel like any kind of ends can. The means, the means ends are gonna justify the means with them. It doesn't [00:13:00]matter if they lie.Tell the truth finagle this or that, or whatever. My first arrest when I, I had like this eight ball of crystal meth, like in my underwear. They used like some, some informant to set up like the drug deal, but then the cops followed me. I took like a right at a light up to the side of elementary school, and they like, literally took my pants and underwear down and dug around under my nu sack to find this dope in the middle of the day.Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost. You know, everybody. So come on. And now we're on the side of an elementary school in the middle of the day when the kids are out playing. Now, now the, and on the police report, they lied and said, I took a left turn at the right and the, I think they found the eight ball, like, I don't know, in the car, like it was laying on the dashboard.Not true. You know, and, and somehow the grand jury was able to put two and two together and figure that [00:14:00] they had lied and it was thrown out , you know, But cops do not mind it going one way and then saying whatever the fuck they want to on those police reports.Jeffrey: Right. Exactly. That's, We'll see, you know, you know, piggybacking and building off of that point, that, that's what happened to me though, because in their police reports regarding the confession, cuz this was not videotaped, it wasn't audio taped.There's no signed confession. It's just a cop's word. Oh boy. So you already, you see where I'm about to go with this? Right. You see where I'm about to go with this? In their police report, they le they left the threat and false promise outta their report and, and obviously outta their testimony in, in, in the.De'Vannon: See, that's some bullshit right there. Their word only. Mm-hmm. They set you up and they just needed a fall guy. And they, and they, and it's so fucked up because the person who actually did this is black. Your c your chuckles, [00:15:00] like y'all couldn't look more different. if you Jeffrey: wanted to. Right, right. But plus, plus the age and building off that, the age, at the time of the prime, the actual perpetrator was 29.I'm like 16 and the victim's 15. So it's not just different race, but like the, the age disparity is, is huge as well. De'Vannon: Laws, scandals, and deceptions, you know. I have no, my God, I used to want to be a cop too. Like, like you said, you, you wanted to be a cop. There was a time I had p applied for the Houston Police Department and I was going through the fitness exams and everything.And the only reason I didn't go down that path was because the city council that year had voted to decrease the cop's salary from like 50 K down to 30 k that I was already making that where I was. So I was like, why go risk getting shot up for like the same, if not less money. And now I would never, ever wanna be a police officer.I'm so thankful [00:16:00] I didn't become one. And and so I wonder how, how did this experience with the police change your desire to be a police, to be a cop? Jeffrey: Well, in my teenage years, I, I had went from being wanting, before I was arrested, I went from being, wanting to be a cop to wanting to be an attorney. Cuz my mother, my mother had a personal injury lawyer and I met him a couple times and he, he was He was well dressed, you know, the whole suit, Aachi case thing, and, and you know, he appeared to be well respected and well compensated.So I mean, I changed that I, I idea before this experience, but in terms of how I view the police now, like, you know, look, I don't, I don't go with a broad brush. I don't think all the cops are bad, but I also don't think they're all good. Okay. And I categorically reject the. From apologies or even some police themselves.I categorically reject the idea that it's just a few [00:17:00] bad apples. No, it's a hell of a lot more than that because if it, if it wasn't, we wouldn't have more than, more than 3000 exonerations across the country from 1989 forward. We wouldn't have the police brutality, we wouldn't have the unjustifiable deadly police shootings and more, almost more importantly, we wouldn't have everybody looking the other way.So, no, it's not a few bad apples. It's a hell of a lot more than that. At the same time, it's not, It's not all of them either. I mean, I don't, I don't think there's anything sacred about being an officer in the sense that I don't think that anyone in the career is automatically a good person. I think there's good and bad in the profession.I mean, I think, I think, I think it takes one hell of a set to be a cop, cuz it is a, it is a very, it is a very dangerous job. They do risk a lot to protect us, but at the same time, too many abuse and too many look the other way, I, I, I wish the honest cops. You know this phrase if you see something, say something.I wish youngest cops would blow the whistle and say something and force the corrupt ones outta their [00:18:00] profession. But, you know, it hasn't happened to this point, I don't think. I don't think it's ever gonna happen, but I'm not gonna quit calling for it either. I De'Vannon: don't blame you, man. Just, you know, no, nobody's in every profession for the right reasons.I mean, you have priests fucking alter boys. You've got, you know, cops doing the sort of shit they did to you. I mean, I don't know if people even enter their professions with like the best intentions all the time. Some people, I think start with the right intentions and they get corrupt along the way, you know, you know, it's all over the place.But I mean, for those police, they do what they did to you to look in your face and lie. I, I read in, in the article that you sent me, which is also gonna go in the show notes, how, I think there was three weeks for this girl and you attended all of them. And you were emotional at all of them. And, and the, and the cops thought that because you were emotional, that that was a sign of guilt, which is what you stated earlier, But a teenager, any teenager at a, at a [00:19:00] funeral for a classmate, if they're not crying or, or if they are crying, everybody expresses their emotions differently.But the fact that they were willing to like, follow you around, like this is just like, and then look in your face and lie like they, like, you have to have like a dark soul or none at all to look at a, a 15 year old kid and lie , you know, for as long as they did to you. Cuz this was a few months that they were toying, toing around with you.And so when police get on in the news or read these articles these days when they're crying about how their power is being taken from them, like so now they can be arrested, now they can be, you know, when they go out and kill people and stuff, they can actually get in trouble or in certain cities and states they, they cannot arrest people for a simple drug possession.And, you know, and they're crying cuz their power's being taken from them. I'm like, well you've abused it . You know, so you don't get to keep it. Right, right. [00:20:00] So I wanna talk about,let me see, I took quite a bit of notes on this one here. So when you got to, when you got to prison, your, your reputation you found like, had already been like tarnished in a way. How, Talk to me about that. Jeffrey: Yeah, there's a vigilante mentality in prison towards people who have been convicted of sex offenses.So, you know, unfortunately there was a rape along with the murder. And so, you know, I had this bullseye on my back. I had this target on my back and, you know, I was always, I was always in fear that people would discover what I was incarcerated for. That that could lead to other problems, you know? And there was several times in the course of my incarceration, I was beat up one time by.I nearly lost my I lost my life. So that was, that was that aspect of it. But you know, that, that animosity wasn't limited just to the prisoners. I mean, even, even some of the guards also, you know, [00:21:00] adopted that. So, you know, it was, it was, it was there and was a dangerous place. I mean, I don't wanna it, I mean, to the extent that you even can, I mean, it's not like every, every other day I was, you know, getting my rear end kicked.It wasn't frequent that way, but in the course of 16 years, it was maybe like seven or eight times. So, you know, it's your world D however, if you wanna consider that a lot or, or not, you know, I guess it's up to the lister, De'Vannon: but how do you, how do you think they, I mean, this, this probably was highly televised, but do you think any of the ruining of your reputation was intentional by anybody?Jeffrey: You mean in, in the prison? You're saying even just being arrested during the case on the street or folks, what do you like The fact De'Vannon: that the fact that by the time you got there shortly after arriving mm-hmm. , many people knew the, the interpretation. Jeffrey: Yeah. Right. Well, I think that, well it was, it was a highly publicized case for sure, and every time I went, made a [00:22:00] court appearance, it was a major media movement, you know, with the coverage being like guilt, presumptive orientated.So, I mean, I think, I mean, I think that was in, that was intentional, but that's like, you know, the media tried to make something salacious. I mean, I don't think I was ever really afforded a presumption of innocence in terms of the court of the public opinion. Not really so much how the actual court worked either.I mean, they claim it's the other way around, but it's, it's really not. But I definitely think that the publicity of the case preceded me into the, into the prison. And there were people that facilitated that, whether, whether on the guard and the correctional officers or even other prisoners spreading it.I mean, certainly that all that stuff took place. De'Vannon: Okay. So you tried to appeal this for I think around like five years And a name, a name came up. It was like Janine [00:23:00] Shapiro.Jeffrey: Jeanine Piro. Yeah. Well, I, the, well, I, I did the appeal were like 11 years. I lost 11 appeals. So Janine Piro was the district attorney of Westchester.So she was not the DA when I was convicted, and she always points that out, but she was the DA before my first appeal was decided. So it was her office that fought me in seven appeals. It was her office who blocked me from getting further DNA testing several times it was her office that got me thrown out of federal court.My attorney was given the wrong information on the filing procedure from the court clerk. And so that resulted in my legal documents being filed four days too late. And it was Janine Perros office that burs the court, Look, he's late, just get rid of his case that way. And that's what they did. And then I challenged that ruling, had three more appeals unsuccessfully.And so so she plays a [00:24:00] moral role there. You know even though she would rather not, but you know, she does a lot of commentary on, on Fox and Just had a few judge shows. And to hear her tell it now, I mean, you know, she's all about due process and presumption of innocence and Well, where, where was all of that when you were the DA and I was wrongfully imprisoned.I mean, that was, that was the time we needed you to say and do everything then. But, you know, so I experienced something different and she's never apologized for her role either. De'Vannon: What a kind. So, And I read I read where, where were Cause I, I'd seen that face on television before and when I came across that name, I was like, Oh wow, this is, you know, that, that really brought home to me just how, just how huge, like, like your case was.But it was like she wouldn't rerun the DNA was what I read. Jeffrey: That's right. That's right. Yeah, exactly. I De'Vannon: [00:25:00] mean, what would it have hurt to just. Tested, You know, something like that makes it seem like she was polarized against you. You know, they're already spending all kinds of money. They have a budget, so it's not like they're, they can say, Well, it would've cost too muchYou know, so. Right, right, right, right. What's the damn reason for, for not just checking again? Jeffrey: Yeah. She never, they never articulated any kind of explanation on that, that made any sense. I mean, I remember I got a piece of correspondence once from her office on that issue, and they said that the DNA issue was already in front of the jury, which convicted you and the front of the appellate court, which affirmed a conviction, which really wasn't an answer because when I was asking for the DNA to be rerun, this was in 90 19, 97, 98, the DNA database had been created and it hadn't been created before.So the DNA technology, at the time, my trial was. [00:26:00] R F L P technology. So they would just compare a particular item to a suspect, like a one to one testing. The database would allow you to take one article and run it through the database and see if it matches anyone else on file. So the technology was improved, so they should have just run it again as, as you said.De'Vannon: Okay. Now speak. I want you to really make us feel, do your best to make us feel how you felt. So this is, so you're a sophomore in high school when this is happening. So, you know, there's no prom, you know, for you, you know, I don't know. You know, the, looking forward to, I don't like to use the term losing your virginity because I don't feel like it's a loss.I feel like it's a transition into adulthood, but, you know, the normal stuff, teenagers think about, you know, when am I gonna have sex for the first time? When am I gonna go to college? [00:27:00] Prom, senior trip, You know, all of that, You know? At what point did you realize for sure, when you were behind Boers, This ain't gonna happen for me.I'm not gonna be able to, to to live in my twenties out, you know, to do all of this. Speak to us about that dark day.Jeffrey: Well, it was only at the end, I mean, throughout the whole incarceration period. I, I, I thought I was just doing a year or two to the next court proceeding. The next appeal would be decided, which I was sure I was gonna win because I was innocent and I still naively believed in the. And every time I would lose, I would just refocus on the next appeal.So it was only 15 years in where my appeals were over after 11 years. Then I wrote letters for four years looking for someone to take my case for free because I didn't, they don't give you a lawyer anymore. Once your, your appeals are over, and the only way back in the court when the appeals are over is if you can find some [00:28:00] new evidence that would've made a difference.So after all the appeals were over, then I wrote letters for four years and really got responses. And then I went to the parole board, and then they said no, also. So now I got 15 years in, and by, by that point I'm like 32. So that's when I started thinking, Well, I, I, I guess I'm gonna die in here. I'm gonna die, as, you know, in prison for a crime I didn't commit.De'Vannon: While you were in there, you know, when you were, you know, still in your teens, did you think about those things like. And not graduating high school and missing prom and all of that. How was that emotion for you? Jeffrey: Yeah, I did think about that. That was all very difficult emotionally. Just to crystallize, like you said, I didn't graduate high school.I didn't go to LA Prom, you know, I missed births, deaths, weddings holidays, very even various rights of passage from, you know, not getting a driver's license to, you know, not having your own first, first place [00:29:00] or, you know, going shopping or writing, writing a check, you know, finishing my education at a more traditional age and being well into a career, possibly on the way to you know, financial freedom.All that stuff dawned on me, and it was hard emotionally. I mean, I had to keep fighting off feelings of hopelessness, helplessness, things of feelings of one thinking about giving up suicidal ideation. So all of those things were, were things I had to fight off too. De'Vannon: Did people come to visit you?Jeffrey: So for most intent and purposes, I did. I did the time by myself. My mother used to come, but then the last six years, like I saw her like once every six months if I was lucky. I had a couple sets of aunts and uncles that would come, but then they would visit and then disappear for three years and visit and disappear for three years and just have that continue.My brother came three times in [00:30:00] 16 years, but not at all on the last decade. And that was it. On the family end of it. On the I mean, one friend came up one time and another person came up four or five times and I lost track of them after five years, and that was it. So, so while not literally I, for most intents and purposes, I did the time on my own and that made it more difficult.De'Vannon: Did, did they put money on your books? Did they write letters? Jeffrey: My mother used to put money on the books, but not but again, not, not in, in the last, in the last five or six years rarely did she put anything. And, you know, certainly none of the other people were putting, were putting money on the books either.So in the last five or six years, I kind of had to like, live off the land. I mean, I went to work in Ms. Hall and, you know, I was hustling there. You know, people want different items and so you steal different items and you, you sell it and you'll give, gimme a deodorant, I'll take a [00:31:00] toothpaste for this and you know, but that, but that is a really good point cuz I mean, the food in prison was terrible.I mean, sometimes it was burned, other times it wasn't fully cooked. I mean, I remember the same food items would make their way on the menu three or four times a week before its grand finale on Sunday. In a soup where they would just dump everything that had been already used like four times, whatever's left over into this big container.And they just would dump water on it and, and heat it up. And that was the soup. So the, you know that I remember they said there was that, but I remember also, not to bug down on too many of these details, but I remember it was two pieces of bologna. One piece of change on a cheese, on a old hot dog bun with a small 25 cent bag of chips that was mostly full of air, you know, And there would be like a, a quarter of a slice of peach and, and, and that, that was Sunday dinner.We, we'll put air quotes around that. [00:32:00] No, I'm so, the food was terrible, man. De'Vannon: I'm here for all the details. I appreciate it. Okay.When I was in jail, like, like jails are not known for, You know, it's not like they got five stars, you know, on the, on the food and everything. It's all pretty much like slop. Yeah. Jeffrey: Right. No, it is, it is. And look, and just to be clear, right, I'm not, I'm not advocating or complaining that this wasn't gourmet food, but what I'm saying is the food was, was, was terrible.And it just, it to me, it didn't meet bare minimum standards of human decency. That's the, that's the main point I'm trying to make in terms of that. My grandmother used to come to see me all the time with my mother, but unfortunately she, she she passed away in, in 1996, so that would've been five years in, five or six years in.So she stopped coming to see me as a result of not being alive.De'Vannon: [00:33:00] Well, she had good reason. Right, Jeffrey: Right. Clearly. De'Vannon: So do you think your family believed that you were guilty? Jeffrey: So I had a, I had a uncle that was actually in law enforcement in, in Yonkers, which was elsewhere in Westchester County, New York.So he was a marshal, a law enforcement position. So he, he, he thought I was guilty. He went and talked to the cops and they, they, I guess they, you know, convinced him, cop to cop that I was guilty. And his daughter who was extremely, who was extremely conservative, so he convinced her. So those two thought I was guilty, but everybody else thought that everyone else thought I was innocent.But the thing is that their belief in my innocence did not translate into them maintaining contact with me. And, you know, there was several times my mother made rounds amongst the family. And look, we gotta get a lawyer. And, you know, maybe everybody can do, could do a [00:34:00] manageable amount, you know, But, but nobody, nobody wanted to throw in anything.So their belief in my innocence never translated into anybody helping me. And so you know, when I have periodically saw, visited and see people, my extended family during my 16 years of freedom now they're, you know, they're, at one time or another, most people have, you know, expressed an apology and there's, you know some feelings of guilt there, you know, on their, on their end of it.De'Vannon: Shit. I'll tell you man, like from, from my experience going to jail, your blood family, they, they're, they're gonna be the last ones to show up. Like, like my, like, right? Like my friends came first, not my blood family . Right, Right. But being arrested in high school, like your, your friends, whatever friends you had, were like, just in high school, it's not like they could have really financially done much, you know?Right. Of [00:35:00] course. For you. So you didn't have that. But I don't know what it is, but I, I, I feel like it's a sense of. Of judgment that comes from the blood family when we get arrested. I just, I really, really do. At least that was my experience. But in the case of arrest, y'all don't wait on your blood family.You better have, you better have that money saved up with your friends somewhere cuz they're gonna be the ones that come first. Right. So you spoke a lot, spoke a lot in the documentary about how the healthcare behind bars and, and in particularly you had a, you compared to this whole like hospice situation to like a mobs you like, you're like leaving people that are die, not letting them out.cuz they were already gonna die so they were on hospice and you're not letting them out anyway. So talk to me about how the healthcare situation and, and this whole hospice and the compassionate release being delayed. Jeffrey: Right. So the, the health, the healthcare in prison was terrible [00:36:00] in general. I mean, I remember in, in El El Meira, which is where I spent 13 and a half to 16 years.So it would be like a month, sometimes several. Before you could see a doctor, you would always see a, a nurse and the nurses answer to everything was, you know, give you a couple of Tylenols and come back tomorrow if you still don't feel well. And it would take a month or sometimes several to see a, to see a doctor.So that was the gen. And, and a lot of these doctors couldn't, couldn't have been employed as a doctor on the, in the free world either. So that's the general lay of the land. But in terms of the compassionate release, so there were prisoners there that were determined to be terminally ill by doctors that were working for Department of Correction.So there was a process referred to as compassionate releasing, which any prisoner that was deemed to be terminally ill could, could apply. To be released early with the theory being that you could die with a little bit of dignity around your family and your friends in a normal [00:37:00] environment rather than like in a prison visiting room someplace.So the system took so long, often to process those, but sometimes by the time they decided, the person already passed away. I mean, that happened a few times where decisions came to the prison a couple days after somebody had passed away, or sometimes they took so long that by the time they did they were granted and they were released then, you know, the person died like a day or two after that, and they just, it was just so uncaring.It was just, it was just, you know, brutal. You know, It was just, it was just brutal. So I remember, I remember, you know, you said, you, you said you're here for all the details. So I have a gastly detail for you. I remember there was a guy named Choco, which of course is Spanish for chocolate. That was his real name.That was his PR moniker. His last name was Sanchez. I don't don't remember what his first name was, but the point being, I passed him by on [00:38:00] the first floor. And so it was called The Flats, right? It was the bottom floor on the cell gallery. So I passed him by and he was walking very labor asleep, very, very slowly.And I could see the sweat coming down lightly from his brow. And I stopped and he was breathing heavy and I, I stopped and I asked them, Yo, you okay? You gotta, you know, No, I'm not, my, my, my, my, my chest hurts. And, you know, and, and I said, Yo, you gotta, you gotta go to sick hall, bro. You gotta go and get medical help.And he said, Oh, I just came from there. You know, they told me I'm okay. They gave me a couple of Tylenols, but you know, I feel like I'm dying. And he actually was dying. So that night in his cell, he passed away of a heart attack.De'Vannon: And then I may not supposedly didn't say anything in the prison. They just come and picked the bodies up and put another person. Jeffrey: Yeah. And somebody, Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think, I think his daughter was notified [00:39:00] and, you know, came and made arrangements for the body. But that was, I don't think anything ever came of that though.I mean, that, you know, beyond just being medical, I mean, I, I feel like somebody should have been locked up for that. Somebody should have faced, you know, professional consequences beyond, in addition to being locked up. And I don't, I don't think that ever happened. Well, De'Vannon: people might escape that sort of justice in this life, but, but God is not mocked as it, as it is said for whatever we, so we reap and so You mentioned earlier that you had considered suicide at one point.Was it like a one time thing or that you have this happening on and off throughout the whole time you were behind bars? Jeffrey: The thought occurred to me, the whole, you know, on and off throughout the whole time I was beyond bars. Yeah, cuz prison is a very, very depressing place. De'Vannon: Is there any mental health available?I'm assuming [00:40:00] if the physical health associated, they probably didn't have a psychologist worth the damn either, but, Well, Jeffrey: they, they, well they, they, they had some people working there, but again, it was bottom of the barrel. And, and I, I felt like the people, I mean, I did go see 'em a couple times and never really felt like I was anything other than a number and they never felt like caring and, you know but you know, one of the psychologists, you know, told me and, and you know, and I didn't, I didn't tell them, Hey, I'm thinking of suicide.Okay. Just to be clear, I didn't say that cuz I knew that. That would've resulted in bad things. But I did tell them I was struggling with depression and, you know, and, and you know, related symptoms like that. But they told me that, look, they already have their caseloads already way too big, and they're not, you know, they're not able to deal with anyone other than people that are you know, that are, that are psychotic or that are, you know, having hallucinations or delusions that they had to pick and choose.And I was just kind of like too low on their [00:41:00] totem pole. De'Vannon: Well, you said bad things would've happened if you would've just flat out said you were suicidal. What do you mean what bad things? Jeffrey: Well, they could have put me in a cell and it could have taken my clothes and put me in the cell and just gave me this, see through paper mache, and then had a guard sitting outside of my cell the whole time while I had nothing in the cell.I mean, that's, that's, that's what I mean, you know, that De'Vannon: that would. As like a type of confinement, solitary confinement maybe, Jeffrey: or, Yeah. It, it is a type of solitary confinement, but the main, that's considered to be constant observation. I mean, the main thing is, you know, I don't see how taking somebody's clothes and property from them, you know, how that, how that's helpful to someone that's suicidal.If you're already gonna have a staff person sitting outside the cell monitoring them the whole time anyway. I don't think you need to do that in order to make sure that they don't, that they don't hurt themselves. I mean, I think that that's making a situation go from bad to [00:42:00] worse. De'Vannon: Right. Cause you're taking away some of the basic staples that people need in order to feel human.So it's izing, It's very dehumanizing. That's right. Yeah. In the way they're treating suicidal people in prison and jail itself are totally dehumanizing. So, which you get to go outside, like in, in the documentary I heard you come mention a few times, like How you missed, like, the feel of the wind on your face or like the sun and things like that.And from my time in jail, I, I remember that as well. I, you know, I wasn't allowed to go outside at all, so there was no wind, no rain, no sun no moon. And that, that was the most depressing thing for me. So were you allowed to go outside at all? Or how, how did that work? Jeffrey: So they let you go outside for recreation?Some, not, not all, but like in, in Elmira. I mean, I feel like they didn't, we, we didn't get a lot of outside. I wouldn't say there was none at all, But it was, it was more, it [00:43:00] was more limited. But the other thing in the documentary though, I mean, you know, when they had a system of maintaining water in a prison called Keylock, which involves sanctions being put on the prisoners that they were found guilty of breaking a prison rule.So they would. Keep you in the cell 23 when that. So if you were found guilty of breaking a prison rule, then they would apply this to you. And, you know, there were times where my breaking a prison rule was that I was defending myself while somebody was attacking me. And therefore, as the prison saw it, I was fighting.So they would keep me in the cell like 23 hours a day, add a 24 they would send less food. Sometimes the food would be three or four days old. You could take two showers one week, three the next, rather than being able to shower daily as the rest of the population. And they would, their idea of giving you the one hour a day minimum recreation consists of putting the prisoners in a small caged area by yourself of maybe a pullup bar in it, if you were lucky.[00:44:00]But one time I did went to isolation. The special housing unit, when they put you outside, you couldn't see the outside. I mean, it was totally roofed off, so you couldn't even see the sky.De'Vannon: Well, shit. Yeah, you know, you,Why do you, why, why do you think people, you know, prison guards and things like that, you know, fill the need to step on people who are already broken and pretty much powerless. Why? Because it's not like you really could hurt them. Why? Why, why do Jeffrey: you think? I think they didn't quite look at us as human being.Some of them, I think some of them were frustrated with their own personal life. You know, maybe some of them were a kid that was picked on and we perceived that, you know, some of them were cop wanna bees who couldn't, couldn't quite make it. [00:45:00] So this was their chance to just like strike. . So that was, as to the ones, you know, that were like that look, there also were, there also were guards that were, that were professionals.And some of them I enjoyed speaking to here and there, and I even thought that there were some of them that I could have been friends with had I met them under different circumstances. But the thing that bothered and still bothers me the most was like none of the professional guards never, or the prison, the, you know, the people in different authority, sergeants, capitals, lieutenants, superintendent, you know, the hierarchy was supposed to be there, the over oversight.They never like tried to reel anybody in, like even the good officers, if they saw the other ones, you know, back in the fool or abusing their authority, they would never like step in or say anything or have them pull back anything. They just would let them continue on with that. Not, not, not unlike, you know, honest cops [00:46:00] who.See their, you know, the other people in their profession, you know whether it's planning evidence or test the lying or writing false reports. I mean, they, they look the other way. So it, it's kind of a similar dynamic. De'Vannon: Mm-hmm. . Okay. So, Enter the Innocence Project. So you a lady shows up one day, you're not getting many visitors as we've established, and you come bouncing up there, I'm taking some creative license here.You come bouncing up there. And that's what it was like though.Jeffrey: That was, it was like, you're completely on point. Continue on . So little pants of mine as well, huh? Right. . De'Vannon: You know, so Jeffrey: we don't laugh about this crazy stuff, Dee, I'm gonna like die. I'm gonna die from it being, you know, we have to do dark humor and release, so please continue up De'Vannon: ab the fucking Absolutely.And so, so the guards like, Yeah, you gotta visitor. And you're like, Yeah, who, who would be coming to see me? You Right? And for a moment, the guard, [00:47:00] the guard asks you, do you know this person? And then you realize that if you don. Then they would cut, they would cancel the visit. And so you, so you get into, you snap, you snap two and you're like, Oh yeah, I know them.And then so you go over and this lady introduces herself. She's like, I'm your new attorney. And she begins to tell you how they ran the dna. You're gonna get out. What I'm, what I'm curious about you, you went until like a three and a half hour I believe. It was like a mentality where you didn't actually believe it And this woman's trying to tell you, Yeah, you're actually, it's for real this time, not for fakes.It's for reals. So talk to me about this experience. Jeffrey: Yeah, exactly. So by sell cracks open and as a general rule, whenever they open your cell, you're supposed to like find out, well what is this for? So the guard yells down, you know, visit. So I go down, Hey, why don't you like double check that? Because you know, like you said, like who the hell is gonna come see me?So they called up there and confirm, yeah, you gotta visit Stu. Sprint down to my cell. We got like a [00:48:00] routine, you know, you pair of like a little visit shirt cause that's the one time you're. Kind of, sort of quasi in public, right? The visiting room where there's the intersection point between the inmates and the, and the, the, So I got got this, you know, visit shirt and I'm hurrying up down there and I'm thinking to myself as I'm running, you know who the, who the hell came to see me.And it's quite a distance actually from cell to the visiting room. And I gotta get there before a certain amount of time before the count happens because otherwise I'm gonna be stuck outside the visiting room for the next two and a half hours while the visitor waits, while they count cuz they're slow.And so I'm running. And then when I, when I finally get there, this lady's waving at me and you know, I wave back when I'm thinking like, she's mistaken. Who's this? And you know, maybe she, you know, I think she thinks I'm someone else, or maybe she remembers me from a different prison. But I asked the guy who came to see me who don't, you know.And I, like you said, I say yes cause I want the damn thing to be canceled. So I go over there and she [00:49:00] says, Hey I'm ne Hi, I'm Nina Morrison. She's my attorney at the at at, at the, at the Innocence Project. And you know, and she says the items have been te now my, my ears are alert. I'm looking for like, anything to be off or out of the ordinary cuz that, that normally spells disaster.And so she says the items have been tested. So, so right there, what would you mean? They're not supposed to be tested for another month. And she says, Yeah, they're actually they were tested. The DA pulled some strings and got the items tested and the results matched the actual perpetrator and you're going home tomorrow.And I said, No, I'm not. And she said, Yeah, you are. And I said, No, I'm not. And she said, Yeah, you are. And I said, No, I'm not. And for the next three and a half hours I had this spino paralysis, he was sitting, literally sitting there holding my hand. My head is spinning, all these thoughts are running through my head.One thought has nothing to do with the next, and none of them have anything to do with. Me going home [00:50:00] and I'm articulated all this random stuff and she's not responding. She's just taking it all in, holding my hand. And every now and then she breaks in and says, Are, are, are you ready to talk about tomorrow?I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. Get away from me. We're not talking about tomorrow. Don't play with me like that. I, I'm not, I'm not going home. Okay? So that went on for three and a half hours. And finally what made it real is she said, Look visit hours are almost over. There's a ton of work to do between now and tomorrow as far as the media.I need to get your clothing and shoe sizes. We gotta get a suit for you. And that, that made it real. And then I felt better for about five minutes and , and then a different concern came in my head, which was, I thought that something was gonna happen between that day and the next, and that the DA was gonna change your mind.And they would do what they always do, which is fight me and win. De'Vannon: [00:51:00] Not this time. Not this time. . Jeffrey: Thank, thank God. Not this time. No, but that was, that was my concern for sure. So De'Vannon: were you in the same prison that whole 16 years? No. Jeffrey: Okay. No, I was not, no. I was in El Meira from 1991 in 95, and I got transferred to Eastern Correctional Facility, which is in Napa, New York.So Ulcer County, much, much closer to towards the city. But I was only there for three weeks. Then they sent me back to, they sent me to Fishkill, which was a reception center, and then they sent me back to Aira for 10 months and then they sent me to Shang Gun, which is in Dus County. And I was there for a year and a half.And that's where I had the incident where a guy tried to kill me with the weight plate. And went to the solitary confinement and from there they sent me back to Myra for a decade, and then I got transferred. To sing, Sing for the last 28 days. And then I went [00:52:00] to court from there and from court to home.De'Vannon: Sing sing's like supposed to be amongst the, one of the worst places you can go, right? Yeah. That's, Jeffrey: that's true. Yes it is. Yeah. And you might, you might, you know the expression, you know, you're going up the River is a reference. There's a reference to Sing Sing because it's located, you know, Near Hu the Hudson River.De'Vannon: Yeah, I, I know about Sing Sing You, you a Bad Son of a Bitch if you, you've made it in Sing Sings Mad cra yo bamSo tell me about the first time you walked out of prison as a free man. Was it in your new pimp suit to talk to the media or, Cause when I got jail, when I gotta jail, they just let, they just let all us motherfuckers out at midnight on the side of the road, like some roaches, curring about there is no sunlight.They just like, okay, go do you, No one's calling an Uber or taxi. No shit like that. So, but I wasn't complaining. I'm all like, fuck it, I'm free run . So.