Podcasts about christian so

Christian: So recently, I've been coming across a lot of mental health posts on social media, such as Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. And I've just been wondering, what is mental health? Could you please explain it to me? Christian：最近，我在 Instagram、Twitter、Facebook、YouTube 等社交媒体上看到了很多心理健康帖子。我只是想知道，什么是心理健康？你能给我解释一下吗？ Tahia: Sure. So in a nutshell, mental health is about the day-in, day-out state of our emotional, psychological and social wellbeing. But unfortunately, we tend to neglect our mental health and brush it aside until it snowballs into a more serious problem and even a mental health disorder in some cases. 塔希亚：当然。简而言之，心理健康是指我们日复一日的情绪、心理和社会健康状态。但不幸的是，我们往往忽视我们的心理健康，并将其抛在一边，直到它像滚雪球一样发展成更严重的问题，甚至在某些情况下成为心理健康障碍。 Christian: Wow. Okay. Could you please explain what is a mental health disorder, and what kind of different mental health disorders are there? 克里斯蒂安：哇。好的。您能否解释一下什么是心理健康障碍，以及有哪些不同的心理健康障碍？Tahia: So, everybody experiences mental health issues, but for some people, they might have a mental health disorder genetically, or for some people, they might develop mental health disorders over time. So there are about five categories of mental health disorders, I would say. The first one is mood disorders like depression and bipolar, where you can be really happy one moment and extremely sad the next, and this can actually start interrupting your day to day life and your ability to complete simple tasks. There's also psychotic disorders like schizophrenia, where you can hallucinate. There's body disorders like anorexia and body dysmorphia, which affects the way that you look at yourself physically and ultimately affects how you psychologically perceive yourself. There are also cognitive disorders, which are issues relating to learning difficulties, Alzheimer's and things like this. And then the final, perhaps most common area of mental health disorders is anxiety, which includes things like social anxiety and OCD, which stands for obsessive compulsive disorder. So this could be for example, obsessively cleaning, because you feel as though if you don't clean, you're being lazy or you feel like you can't be productive. So that's kind of the five different categories of mental health disorders that I think are out there at the moment. 塔希亚：所以，每个人都会经历心理健康问题，但对于某些人来说，他们可能在遗传上患有心理健康障碍，或者对于某些人来说，随着时间的推移，他们可能会出现心理健康障碍。我想说，心理健康障碍大约有五类。第一种是情绪障碍，如抑郁症和躁郁症，您可能某一时刻非常高兴，下一时刻非常悲伤，这实际上会开始干扰您的日常生活和完成简单任务的能力。还有精神分裂症等精神疾病，您可能会产生幻觉。厌食症和身体畸形等身体疾病会影响你看待自己身体的方式，并最终影响你在心理上看待自己的方式。还有认知障碍，即与学习困难、阿尔茨海默病等相关的问题。最后，也许是最常见的精神健康障碍领域是焦虑，其中包括社交焦虑和强迫症（强迫症）等。例如，这可能是过度清洁，因为你感觉好像自己不清洁、很懒或者感觉自己无法提高工作效率。我认为这就是目前存在的五种不同类别的精神健康障碍。 Christian: Wow. That's very interesting. And I do think that I have social anxiety because whenever I go out, I tend to get very nervous and sweaty. So for someone like me and for other people that may have other mental health disorders, what can we do to improve our mental health? 克里斯蒂安：哇。这很有趣。我确实认为我有社交焦虑，因为每当我出去时，我都会变得非常紧张和出汗。那么，对于像我这样的人和其他可能患有其他心理健康障碍的人来说，我们可以做些什么来改善我们的心理健康呢？ Tahia: Well, depending on what you think you're struggling with, there are loads of different techniques and specific things that you can do to tackle them. So, for example, have you seen fidget toys recently on social media? 塔希亚：嗯，根据你认为自己正在努力解决的问题，你可以采取很多不同的技术和具体的措施来解决这些问题。举例来说，您最近在社交媒体上看到过烦躁的玩具吗？Christian: Yeah, I have. 克里斯蒂安：是的，我有。 Tahia: So, fidget toys are a really good way to just manage your anxiety. So, for example, my little sister loves using fidget toys when she's speaking or when she's thinking about something that's making her feel stressed out. It's just a way of physically releasing some of the energy that you have built up inside of you because of your anxiety. 塔希亚：所以，坐立不安的玩具是控制焦虑的好方法。例如，我的妹妹在说话或思考让她感到压力的事情时喜欢使用坐立不安的玩具。这只是一种身体释放你因焦虑而积聚的能量的方法。 Christian: Wow. That's amazing. I think I'm going to have to buy one. 克里斯蒂安：哇。太棒了。我想我必须买一个。 Tahia: Definitely. I would recommend it. But apart from more specific things that you can do, I have some general advice. I think that we really have to take care of our physical health, meaning exercising and eating and drinking the right foods and lots of water. We also have to make sure that we're spending time with our friends and families and then we take time for ourselves. I personally love meditating as this is me time. And I also like doing self care activities like putting on a mask and going to the salon to look and feel good. I would really recommend that you spend a lot of me time and do have a self-care activity that you care about. What activity would you do? 塔希亚：当然。我会推荐它。但除了您可以做的更具体的事情之外，我还有一些一般性建议。我认为我们确实必须照顾我们的身体健康，这意味着锻炼身体、饮食正确的食物和大量的水。我们还必须确保花时间与朋友和家人在一起，然后花时间陪伴自己。我个人喜欢冥想，因为这是我的时间。我也喜欢做自我护理活动，比如戴上面具、去沙龙让自己看起来更好、感觉更好。我真的建议您花很多时间并进行您关心的自我护理活动。你会做什么活动？ Christian: I think I would do meditating, but I'm not too sure how to do it. Could you please explain to me how I could meditate? 克里斯蒂安：我想我会冥想，但我不太确定该怎么做。您能向我解释一下我如何冥想吗？ Tahia: Sure. There are loads of useful apps that you could use that gives you tips and techniques on how to meditate. One that I use is Balance, and it teaches me how to use breathing techniques to manage my stress. For example, by breathing in for four seconds, holding my breath for seven seconds and breathing out for eight seconds, which is called the 4-7-8 technique. You should definitely try that. 塔希亚：当然。您可以使用大量有用的应用程序，为您提供有关如何冥想的提示和技巧。我使用的一种是平衡，它教我如何使用呼吸技巧来控制压力。例如，吸气四秒，屏住呼吸七秒，呼气八秒，这就是所谓的4-7-8技巧。你绝对应该尝试一下。Christian: Amazing. I will definitely try that. Thank you. 克里斯蒂安：太棒了。我一定会尝试的。谢谢。

James 1-26 begins with these words- -If anyone considers himself religious -- And he's talking about true religion, so you could translate that, -If anyone considers himself a Christian ---So if you consider yourself a Christian, this verse is written directly to you. But what he goes on to say is startling. He goes on to describe a situation that would render your religion -your Christianity- worthless. What is this critical ingredient that determines whether a person's Christianity is valid or worthless-

In this episode Jeremy answers an important question- Can you be rich and Christian- So many today argue that certain passages in the Bible condemn all riches and therefore rich people cannot be Christians, or if they can be, they are not as good Christians as others. To answer that question, Jeremy jumps into passages of Scripture that highlight riches in a positive light, as well as ones that do not.--Article--https---www.biblestudy.org-basicart-how-rich-was-king-david.html

In this episode Jeremy answers an important question- Can you be rich and Christian- So many today argue that certain passages in the Bible condemn all riches and therefore rich people cannot be Christians, or if they can be, they are not as good Christians as others. To answer that question, Jeremy jumps into passages of Scripture that highlight riches in a positive light, as well as ones that do not.--Article--https---www.biblestudy.org-basicart-how-rich-was-king-david.html

In this episode, Christian Railsback and co-host Dr. Kimothy Smith one another's virtues and conduct a shallow dive into the molecular machinery, persistence, and epidemiology of Pseudomonas aeruginosa, the first of several waterborne pathogens discussed this season. A transcript of the conversation appears below. More about Pseudomonas aeruginosa:Infection risk, spread, and treatmentDrinking water and outbreak surveillance Additional opportunistic pathogens of premise plumbing Stay tuned for more episodes, posting on the first Thursday of each month. Subscribe to our show wherever you get your podcasts and find more info at weebeastiespodcast.com The Wee Beasties podcast is a production of Nephros, Inc., a leading water technology company providing filtration and pathogen detection solutions to the medical and commercial markets. *** SHOW TRANSCRIPT: Christian: I am here with Dr. Kimothy Smith. Kimothy, welcome! Christian: Kimothy, you are currently the Vice President of the Pathogen Detection Systems division at Nephros, but you have a pretty rich history. Can you give our listeners a summary of your professional life and what you're currently working on with Nephros? Kimothy: DVM, PhD, Biodefense, Consulting, Academia/DRI, Nephros, Pathogen Detection in potable water systems. Christian: So, the current technology that Nephros incorporates in its risk management portfolio identifies waterborne pathogens, but there must dozens, possibly hundreds of pathogens to identify? I imagine most people don't know these pathogens by name; maybe they've heard them mentioned, but are likely not acquainted with the specifics -- cellular structure, diseases they cause, target populations which are vulnerable, and recent outbreaks, etc. This series is meant to share information about waterborne pathogens and make otherwise unpalatable information about microorganisms more accessible. Kimothy: Yes, that's right Christian. There is an entire catalog of pathogens and it can get overwhelming quickly. It's difficult to know exactly where to start directing your attention. I thought we might start with pathogens that have been in the headlines as it pertains to outbreaks, but that people aren't screening for or aren't aware is a potential problem at all. Christian: Great; what should we start with? Kimothy: I was thinking Pseudomonas aeruginosa might be a good place to start. Christian: I realize there are other species of Pseudomonas that are important, but, what kind of waterborne pathogen is Pseudomonas aeruginosa and what kind of infection does it cause? Kimothy: This is a gram-negative, opportunistic pathogen, that can infect the blood and lungs and lead to pneumonia. It thrives in moist environments, so soil or water is where it's most commonly found. Christian: I'd like to get to the population of individuals most susceptible to this infection, but before we go there can you give everyone a sense of what type of bug this is at the cellular level? Kimothy: Sure, it's a motile, rod-shaped, gram-negative bacterium. It takes on a blue-green color when grown on a plate and has relatively low nutritional requirements. It can grow anaerobically, which means it does not use oxygen. It also produces a biofilm which combined with its highly adaptive environmental response makes this a fairly resilient bug.  Christian: What do you mean by that? Kimothy: Well, the cell can modify itself very quickly to an antimicrobial environment. The cell's ability to modify its DNA (through mutation or from genes from other bacteria) allows it to resist most anti-microbial climates, while less robust microorganisms will die. The bacteria's efficiency in rapid adaptation combined with being able to obfuscate itself in biofilms makes it very difficult to eradicate. It can also provide a home for other microbes to establish themselves and live. This is why we have seen this bug among the more rapidly trending outbreaks when it comes to nosocomial infections. Christian: Okay, so nosocomial infections? These are infections that are acquired in healthcare environments, like hospitals, clinics, or long-term care facilities? Kimothy: That's right. Christian: Okay, so let's come back to my question from earlier – what kind of population of individuals are most susceptible to acquiring Pseudomonas aeruginosa? Kimothy: Well, the bacterium takes advantage of the vulnerable epithelium (i.e. skin). That is, a patient that has degraded, or underdeveloped epithelial tissue is going to be highly susceptible to Pseudomonas aeruginosa. Babies in the PICU/NICU, for instance, or burn patients in particular. But anyone with a preexisting acute or chronic respiratory issue is also vulnerable. Ironically, since hospitals are where you find antibiotics and antimicrobial agents, antibacterial-resistant Pseudomonas aeruginosa strains find hospitals to be a favorable environment. Medical equipment, such as ventilators or catheters are good locations to harbor Pseudomonas. Christian: I see, so given the persistent and lethal nature of this bug, why are we still seeing it as a problem not being addressed in hospitals and healthcare facilities? For example, we know that if water isn't treated or filtered you can acquire cholera and die, so now we treat or filter the water and don't get sick. Why isn't the same approach taken to address Pseudomonas aeruginosa? Kimothy: Here in the United States, there is not a strict regulatory requirement to test water for pathogens other than for Legionella, so many facilities don't realize they have Pseudomonas aeruginosa in their water supply. Christian: Couldn't facilities just treat or filter the water without screening for it? In other words, isn't it unnecessary to know what's in the water if you implement methods to eliminate nosocomial infections, such as water treatment and filters? Kimothy: I think unfortunately it's slightly more nuanced than what you've described. Just like there is not one or two solutions your physician gives you when you go to the doctor when you're sick, there is no panacea to treat building water networks. Just like a physician, if you want to practice good medicine and develop a sound patient care plan, you need to know what you're dealing with before you start treating. Physicians run blood tests and take images -- x-ray, MRI, etc. We are doing something similar are Nephros. We are taking water samples and testing them using molecular assays and gene sequencing technology. This allows us to have, or give our clients, a clear picture of the building health. Treatment outcomes for the building – filters, UV, chlorine, copper, silver nitrate, etc. – largely depend on what we are diagnosing the problem to be. Christian: So, Pseudomonas aeruginosa, for example, isolated to a burn unit or NICU, may require a more robust remediation strategy for an Infectious Disease staff than say E. coli or addressing certain coliforms? Kimothy: That's right, Christian. And may I add that what we're doing is allowing the screening and diagnosis to occur in the field, on-site, which doesn't confine clients to only using feedback from lab cultures – which can take several days or weeks to get results. Christian: And that's PluraPath you're talking about there, correct? Kimothy: Correct Christian: Alright folks, well that was a nice little overview of Pseudomonas aeruginosa. We'll see you next time for our next Pathogen Podcast here at Nephros. Thanks, Kimothy! Kimothy: You bet; thank you, Christian.

Welcome to season 2!  In this episode, Christian Haynes ’20 speaks with Schone Malliet ’74 about his dynamic career and the many ways that he strives to foster diversity, equity, access and inclusion for all. Interview originally recorded on July 30, 2020.  Due to the ongoing effects of the pandemic, all interviews in season 2 are recorded remotely. --- Transcript Schone: The question that I have now: is diversity, equity and inclusion, a committee or is it a culture? Is it something that you talk about around a table or it's something that is a way of life? I think that it's both. It starts with the talking around the table, but it needs to be the way things are, not something that you do. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host Maura Sweeney from the class of 2007, Director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: Welcome to season two. In this episode, we hear from Schone Malliet from the class of 1974. Schone's career path will keep you on your toes, although he claims that his life isn't movie material. After growing up in the South Bronx, he came to Holy Cross in the early '70s and successfully walked on the varsity basketball team. Upon graduation, he entered the Marine Corps and became one of its first black jet pilots. From there, he got his MBA and worked as a top executive in the technology and banking industries. Today, he combines this wealth of experience with his passion for making a difference in people's lives. Maura: Christian Haynes from the class of 2020 speaks with Schone about his life, career and his current work as the CEO of Winter4Kids, a nonprofit organization whose mission is to make a difference in the lives of youth through winter activities. As his first intern, Christian was able to witness Schone's hard work up close. Filled with thoughtful insights around diversity, equity, access and inclusion, their conversation highlights the many ways that we can all make a difference in our communities and the wider world. Christian: What's good everybody? Welcome to the Holy Cross Mission-Driven podcast. I'm Christian Haynes, class of 2020, which means, yes, I'm officially an alum and hopefully in five years, I'll be on the other end of this. But today, I'm the interviewer and my guest today, great man, a man that can light up the room with his energy and charisma, a man that's been giving me opportunities to become a better person from the moment I met him.... and I'm glad to call him a mentor, Mr. Schone Malliet. Schone: How are you doing Christian? I am really glad to be here. I'm not sure who you're describing there, but when I find him, I'll make sure I connect the two of you, okay? Christian: I actually compared you to Magic Johnson, by the energy you bring. Schone: Well, that's good because he got his game from me and everything he does on the court was because of all the things I hoped to be. No. Thank you though. Christian: He definitely did. How's everything though? Schone: Actually, it's pretty good. Well, it's mixed. With everything going on with CV-19, our society and the upheaval that's going on, it's mixed. I go through a day that has highs and has lows and a lot of thoughtful moments. All in all, its life, right? It’s not always good, it’s not always bad, it’s just hard. I think it’s making me better and hopefully its making all of us better. Christian: Yeah. I guess it’s all just about adjusting to these events. I guess that's the best we can do. The most recent things that we've been doing to adjust and by “we” I mean the Holy Cross community, the ALANA talks we have every two Saturdays, that you’re a part of. I think that you started right? You start that? Schone: We started that as a happy hour and it became talks. I think it's been an awesome way for alumni and students... A safe place to talk about the things and share what we feel, what we're going through and hopefully gain somethings. I gain insight from everybody there, especially the students and recent alumni. You guys are my heroes because I never stop learning, and I do learn a lot from all of you. Christian: Yeah, so with these alumni talks, one of the biggest topics is the social injustice issues that we face both on the Holy Cross campus and outside of it as well, around the world. And one thing that a lot of students say now, or a lot of alumni say now is that nothing has changed from when they were in school, whether it's '70s, '80s, '90s, early 2000s. A lot of things have stayed the same when it came to these social injustice issues, these race wars almost. How do you feel about that? Do you feel the same? You feel as if things have changed or things have stayed the same? Schone: Wow. I was listening to something about the athletic director, I think for one of the conferences and I think it was a conference of HBCU's and he was talking about this issue of integration versus assimilation. I believe what's happened and is still happening today is, while I've been able to evolve from us taking over Fenwick when I was there into which on surfaces, it's been a very good and blessed career, that I've been resensitised to some of the challenges that I went through in my career, whether they were explicit or implicit racism or the -isms that things did not really change. And I think I let my success lure me into believing that it was different. And talking to students, talking to my fellow alumni, revisiting my life as it has been and how it is today, the issue of being impacted socially, emotionally, because of the color of my skin and even how I live is still there. Schone: So, I have to have the talk right? With my son who's 21 years old about, listen get stopped, here's what you do, don't get stopped and then even to have to be sensitive to how, what, when and where are my surroundings, has let me know that this is still real. And so you asked about how do I feel about that, I'm feeling a lot of stuff but I'm also hopeful. And I'm hopeful because in this time which is different to George Floyd thing, the Breonna issue, all of these things now have been front and center for everybody. And so I don't feel that I am, we are as Black people are going forth by ourselves. I think that the whole of society has been brought into the experience. Christian: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Seeing them on allies today. Many protests have been happening, even outside of the country which is kind of surprising for me. I always thought this was a American thing, but there are a lot of people of color facing the same struggles outside of this country. So it is great to have those allies all around the world. We're going to backtrack here a bit and go back to 1970s, South Bronx. When I say that, what's the first thing that popped up in your mind? Schone: I'm a projects kid right? 1710 Lafayette Avenue. Kemba Walker came from the same project which is again where my basketball skills must have went to because I didn't have any. And I look back at the South Bronx as not something bad, it was great where I grew up, it was alive. Of course as I compare it to now and we look at it, it looks different in terms of equity and access and those things but I am a product of everything that I went through growing up, raised by a single female and her having the insight to put me in Catholic schools, to be prepared for where I am today. I love my upbringing, I love everything about it. I wouldn't change it, I didn't know what I didn't have which is kind of a blessing because everything I felt that I went through was what I was supposed to go through. Christian: Rice was located in Manhattan? Rice High School? Schone: 124th Street and Lenox Avenue, in the heart of Harlem- Christian: Yeah, right in Harlem. So what was that like? A private school in Harlem? Schone: Well, first of all, at the time there were no high schools in Harlem. The student body was probably all of, was is it about 400 or 600? And was majority White in Harlem and during the time I went to school there, was the riots of the '60s right? And Rice was a block away from any transportation, buses and trains that I had to take two buses and two trains to get to school. None of the kids who went to school there ever subjected to anything negative. Rice was a great school, Felipe Lopez, Kemba Walker came out with some great basketball players but again that Catholic education plays a role in preparing me for today and Rice High School, it's interesting because I didn't play basketball in high school because I'd tell everybody that Rice High School, the managers could start at any other high school in New York City which is true because I was a manager but I got to play up at Holy Cross so I guess it was unique and it's a shame that it went out of... It's been sold and it's now a school for Harlem Children's Zone. A good legacy. Christian: And you said that Rice prepared you for today, how did it prepare you for Holy Cross? Schone: I think the group of individuals that were kind of the core... this group of individuals helped me create a voice and we started an organization called the Coalition of Catholic High School Students in New York and this is before cellphones and before computers and we not only were activists but it was a social organization as well and I think again it gave me the opportunity to find my own voice. And I probably learned to talk too much but I think that came from my grandfather and all of that and there are people who talk about me and my family, my father's side because my grandfather was a foreign editor on EMCM News. He also was a Black publisher but people in Harlem says oh, you're that Malliet family. All of you guys you could talk, so don't blame it on me, blame it on my heritage. Christian: That's dope. Sometimes I wonder for myself, how did I end up in Holy Cross coming from Brooklyn. So what was it like, the private institution you were part of, the Catholic culture that you were part of that put you onto Holy Cross or maybe a friend? What led you to stepping on the hill? Schone: I picked it out of a hat. I picked Holy Cross out of a hat and let me explain that. So, my mother who didn't have the high school education... So college was not within a vision of my mother or myself and during the time, everybody talks about the fraternity which was the class of '60 that came in '72 but Father Brooks kept recruiting. And part of the response to the riots of '68, '69 were that schools started to proactively recruit Black students and they actually used the PSAT's right? No, I guess that Merit Scholarship Qualifying Test, the practice test as screeners. So they not only screen African American students but they started to proactively set out invitations to apply. And they sent them to guidance counselor, and my guidance counselor pulled my mother in the school, said bring your mom into school and I said for what, I didn't do anything wrong and he said no just bring her in and I brought her in and he says listen, I want to talk to you about college's for Schone and she said he's not going to college. There's no money, there's no... and she didn't understand. Schone: He said no, I have his applications here, these schools he can get into and he should apply and we applied and there were some interesting schools, Holy Cross was one, the Merchant Marine Academy was another one, UCLA, Slippery Rock State Teachers College, John Hopkins, don't ask me why those schools. I picked Holy Cross out of a hat, didn't understand why, I'd never visited the campus and showed up there the first time and had not a clue of what I was doing and why I was there. I believe not in karma but spirituality that I believe in a higher power and a lot of things in my life, I probably would not have chosen on my own but I'm sure that I was guided and that was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Christian: Did you really pick it out of a hat? Schone: Yes, I really did pick it out of a hat- Christian: I mean, imagine you really having a bunch of papers in a hat. That's crazy, I mean I guess it is fate- Schone: My life has been interesting and you're going to laugh at this, I'm sure [inaudible 00:15:50] that when you look at what I've done in my life, like Holy Cross right? And the Marine Corps as a pilot and Technology's CEO and Pepperdine MBA and banking and running Winter4Kids, it looks like a great story right? It looks like an awesome movie, it's not movie material. There was no plan for those things. So I tell people all the time, I ended up doing all of that because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to and again I go back to, that I've prepared when the opportunities came along but the preparation went not only to Holy Cross, the institution but all the people in my class and who were ahead of me, I mean Ted and Nina Wells, to Malcolm and all the people that played basketball with, from Stan to RL, Rod and all of these individuals, even though I was abused by most of them. Schone: Not only abused in that social setting but prepared me for the rest of the world and when I think about Holy Cross, that critical thinking component is really the most valuable thing that I've ever been able to learn and integrate within my life and internalize because it goes to problem solving. And if there's anything that I would say that I really enjoy and characterize as what's my talent or thing I like to do, I like problem solving. I enjoy the complexity of it and trying to find which people than others are a solution that works. Christian: That's good to hear because there's a lot of problems in this world, so I guess we all going to come to you then. Schone: No, but I'll be more than happy to talk about it but it's true I mean, there's always a solution right? And it depends on how much time and energy that you can put into it and what the goal is. If the goal is to be right, then it's not going to work. If the goal is to find something that works for everybody, that's great. I think it was Barack Obama who spoke at Harvard’s graduation a couple of years ago, that said, if you expect your life to be something where you're going to get your way a 100% of the time, it's not going to happen. The thing you have to learn is what's important, how to compromise, how to communicate and decide that everybody has to win for something to be sustainable. Christian: That's also kind of boring too. I mean you don't even know what's going to happen. So if you're right all the time, is it really fun? Schone: I wouldn't know because I've never been right all the time and if I find anybody, I'm usually going to walk away from them too because... But I think that, those experiences right? And you know when you're interning here, the way that we work is, how do we figure out what's the best way to do something which I think is an inherent skill set that Holy Cross is really, really good at no matter what your major and giving you those kind of tools. Christian: Yeah, one thing I actually noticed at the office there, once you have the kids, something that we do especially junior year, senior year, a lot of collaborations, a lot of team work and it's similar to what you just said, trying to find the best solution to the problem given to us. And although I dreaded it at the time, working with other people and meeting them at 11 o'clock at Cool Beans, all that stuff, staying up until 4 o'clock, you know that. All that good stuff, it definitely works in the long run and seeing that from you and seeing that at Winter4Kids, in a business setting I can see that it's definitely a tool that I'll definitely carry for the rest of my life. Christian: But how were you as a student? Not just as a student but as a person at Holy Cross, on campus. Where you like some of the people I've interviewed before? Just partying all the time, I'm not going to mention any names but maybe you know who I'm talking about. Partying all the time, stuff like that. Where you a studious student or you were just that person that went about your business and wanted to graduate right away? Schone: Can I plead the fifth? Because it's good that my parents who are in heaven now, because I don't think they want to hear this. Going to college was a whole brand new experience for me because I had no plan for it. So I didn't know what to do when I got there, right? I was a studious, actually I don't think I knew how to study right? So I guess the best I was capable of doing but my capabilities were limited by my own faults right? So I would say that I enjoyed playing basketball, I enjoyed the parties, the social life. I didn't necessarily embrace the opportunity to learn as much as I could, the best way I could and now when I look back on it, learning is more than just the academic side, it was all the things I went through. Deciding to make a basketball team and go and try out was a big deal. I lived on the Black corridor and then moved off that into Beaven as an experimental house. Schone: I had my eyes open to a world I'd never known of and I think the core of my learning was exploration of opportunity and interactions and it drove me to actually sign up to be a Marine officer which most of my colleagues and you know said.... On Commencement day, after I got my degree I had to go get commissioned and I put on my uniform. There are people who said, what the heck is going on here because they had no idea and I believe that. So to answer your question, I was not studious, I definitely enjoyed the social side, I learned a lot. Could I have done better academically? Absolutely. I was so scared to look inside my... The folder you get with your degree to see that there was a paper in it because I wasn't sure that I had made it. Schone: But I will say that there is something that I learned about what college is supposed to be through that and it's truly academic side, but I think that college is the place to experience a lot of things. Matter of fact, has it a negative that shaped the rest of your life? Because had I not learned coping skills, I could not have experienced and be comfortable in a majority world, as I have been. Does that make sense? Christian: Definitely does- Schone: And I think that the coping skills were the personal interactions with individuals. Christian: Yeah, I always say that you learn more outside the classroom than you do in it and I think my GPA outside of classroom had to be full point on. Because- Schone: I wish I had put that on my transcript, because I could have used that but I think that when people say so what you got out of Holy Cross? Which is why I feel so much about what the school gave me as an opportunity. Like everybody, I came out of there with not feeling that the experience was the most positive at the time but when I look at it in context to where my life has been and where it is now, the will learning was so subtle but so life changing and in the context of me still being a Black man. I did not and do not give up what my essence is. I embrace it, I internalize it and I manage it so that I can be heard and understood and felt. Schone: So today as we talk about what we're going through, I'm talking to colleagues of mine who are White. They are calling me and asking me questions and I'm welcoming those conversations because I believe that if they are going to call and be courageous enough to ask the question, their intention is to learn and to be better and if I can give information from my perspective or what I feel or what I think, it gives them another data point for them to now have a choice about how they are going to interact with anyone who is physically different but surely those of us who are Black. Christian: Now after graduation, like you mentioned straight into Marine Corps. Talk to me about that, the decision going into it, your time there and finishing that time. Schone: Most people who go to college have some goal coming out of it. Being a lawyer, being a doctor, I want to go into law enforcement. Remember I had went in with no particular goal. I had no clue about what I was going to do after I went to college, so the story about the Marine Corps is an interesting one because at the time, Marines were recruiting officers on campus, they would come out in front of Hogan, set up a table and there'd be Marines in uniform recruiting individuals- Christian: They still do that? Schone: So at that time we were protesting, the Marine Corps recruiting on campus. And I say we because I was part of the protesters. And we stood around this table as only Holy Cross individuals can do when they protest. Maybe a 100 in silence for hours and the Marine officer in charge, Major said to me, you don't even know what you're protesting about. He said and you probably could even make it as a Marine. Now I don't know what happened but in the context of looking for something to do after college, I explored the Marine Corps, I took the test for this program. They asked me if I wanted to be an aviator and is said I don't have a clue because I'd never been in an airplane before, they said okay, well take the test, let's see what happens and I guess I did okay with that because I got past the application side, I went to Officer Candidate School, which was down in Quantico, for I think between my sophomore and junior year, no between my junior and senior year. Schone: 12 weeks of a lot of physical challenges, but a lot of it was officer leadership challenges and I got through it and came back to Holy Cross. Spent that whole year. Nobody knew that I had been through that. Graduated, got my commission as an officer, went to the Officer Training School which is the basic school then went to flight school. Flight school was interesting because I think I had the lowest grades of any candidate coming out of flight school and I was the third Black jet pilot in the Marine Corps behind Major General Peterson, the first Black General in Marine Corp and then Charlie Bolden who's a General as well. Charlie Bolden flew the light aircraft that I did but Charlie Bolden was the first astronaut, he was also the head of NASA. Schone: But this interesting about the Marine Corps was that, that was my first experience about being treated differently because I was Black. I was not a great pilot coming out of flight school, I was concerned that I got my wings because I was Black. I said to my instructor I don't want to get this just because I'm Black and he said Schone, I don't worry about you because you are confident, you're capable, you will not press yourself passed what your capabilities are and that's a good thing and sometime in your career, you're going to be okay and be a good pilot but up until that time, people are not going to think very highly of you, because you won't be performing at the level that they expect. Schone: And true to form, I didn't. At one time they challenged me on my ability from an academic stand point, whether or not I was smart enough to be a pilot and I had to use my performance and Officer Candidate School and basic school to show them I finished in the top five of the class out of 250, just to offset that. But subjected to evaluations both direct and indirect because of the color of my skin and I don't know if I accepted it or ignored it because I didn't know how to handle it. I will say that I went from being a very, very bad pilot to being a very, very good pilot. Then got out of the Marine Corps, but at the Marine Corps was very important, near and dear to my heart. A Marine, a Crusader, being raised by my mother, having family, legacy that's important and Winter4Kids, are all things that I'm extremely proud of and blessed to have had the experience because all those things helped me to be the person that I am both in business and personally. Christian: I love driving, I love being behind the wheel but flying a plane, I don't think that's something I'd ever do. What is that like? Anxiety levels have to raise, you more courteous. What is it like? Schone: Flying an airplane is like anything else that you do. Once you learn how to do it, I hope my son doesn't hear this because when I'm riding in the car with him driving, they may as well be a steering wheel and a brake on my side of the car because I'm pressing him out. But I think that, as you progress with anything, you learn how to do the basics and you learn how to take what you learn and apply it, which is skills that you develop. And then you get comfortable at knowing how to apply those things at the right time. But I will tell you that flying an airplane is interesting because it moves at 11 miles per minute and there's lots of things going on. So 11 miles per minute... So your thought process speeds up to process all that information. You don't skip steps, you just do that quicker which creates challenges for me today because some people say, well you get to a conclusion Schone, much quicker than everybody will and do you skip steps or do you jump to conclusions. Schone: It's really not true. What I do is, I process all those steps and risks and those things. I don't get it to a 100% but I've learnt to evaluate things, detail wise very quickly and then be able to make the right decisions but flying was and is one of those things that I got to do and landing on an aircraft carrier, all those things have created things that are special to me. And also, remember I told you that I did a lot of things because I didn't know I wasn't supposed to. They should told me, I should have been scared landing on aircraft carrier because now I probably wouldn't do it but... Christian: I got one question. I feel like a lot of people got to have this question as well, are all those buttons necessary? Schone: In an airplane? Christian: Yes. Schone: Every single thing that is in front of you in an airplane is something that's going to impact how long you live and how good you're going to be, at living that and doing your job. There is nothing in it that is unnecessary. Christian: I'm just asking, I just felt like there's too many buttons. I feel like at least 10% of them are just there to be there. Schone: No, and the interesting part about this, you learn how to scan them and you'd check on those things, not focusing on only one thing because you can't. But you'll learn how to quickly take those things in and keep your eyes outside. So you learn those things. Christian: So one thing, I don't think you did mention it. You went from Marine Corps to- Schone: Technology. Christian: Right. Technology in the '90s. To me that's pretty interesting because now that's almost like we're in an era where technology is part of our lives 24/7 but in the '90s, how was that? Schone: It wasn't like it was today. It was interesting because what we know of as a cloud, existed back in the '80s and '90s, that's what they called timesharing. But I do think what happened for me was, I always went to technology as... I was really interested in how I could use it. What could I use it for? And because I got my MBA at the same time that I was working for Computer Scientists Corporation which would use technology to solve problems. I actually used that technology to help me with my MBA and so I became a user of any technology to help me get things better, faster, sooner. So for me, and you know me, I have just about every piece of technology you van have but it's all about how do I use it? And how does it make my life easier? I think that today, we have a lot of technology out there. Schone: I'm not sure that we know how to use those things, like Apple creates things first and then you figure out how to use them later on. I still can’t figure out today, why in the world I've got a watch on my hand and I could call somebody, listen to music, tell time, manage how exercise I've got and by the way tell me if my heart is working. But if you think of that right, we didn't ask for all that. And so I think that it's evolving so that it helps us to live better and it did back then as well. Christian: So fast forward and imagine you go to banking but same time you got into Winter Sports with the National Brotherhood of Skiers. Now before we answer that one, I want to know what was it first time you got exposed to Winter Sports? Schone: I got exposed to Winter Sports, following my navigator when I was in the Marine Corps. We decided that one weekend we would go to Park City Utah. And on the weekends, in the military you train on the weekends, meaning you could use the plane to train and go to different places. So we decided to go to Park City. Mike Vizzier was a skier, Schone Malliet was not a skier. Mike Vizzier was an expert skier, Schone Malliet was not a skier. Got all the equipment, went to Park City, followed Mike up the lift and there's a lift called and a trail called Payday which had Park City people know is not something for a beginner. Followed him up there, fell getting off the lift, fell numerous times getting down and I promised myself, I was never going to do this again. I was cold, It was miserable and the immediate gratification of me doing something to get it right, was not there. I was not happy camper. That was the first time. Schone: Now National Brotherhood of Skiers which is the largest organized group of skiers in the United States, which is all African American had at the time, over 70 clubs now has about 50 clubs in multiple cities I lived in Los Angeles. I got hooked up with Four Seasons West and they socialized the whole process. Every weekend, we'd get in the cars and drive up the Mammoth. I wasn't any good then but happy hour helped so you may have been miserable, you may had a tough time but you got to go back and misery loves company. At least socialize about the experiences that you didn't really like. That allowed me safe place to get better at the skills, to enjoy it and help me get to where I am today. Christian: Now was the National Brotherhood of Skiers, was that a non-profit? Schone: Yes, it is, it was and at the time I was just a member of this club, but I also got into the coaching side of it and coached African American kids because the National Brotherhood of Skiers, their mission is to identify, develop and support Athletes of color who will win international and Olympic winter sports competitions, representing United States and to increase participation in winter sports. It was what gave me the experience to be a coach and then to take African American athletes who wanted to pursue that and to train, we went to South America twice during the summer time, which is winter there. We went to Switzerland twice to train. A great experience. Christian: Right. So you were doing that at the same time as the banking and stuff and I think for a lot of us that come from these communities that lack resources and those who are fortunate enough to end up in a college with more resources and get to network and all that stuff, our goal is to obtain as many resources as we can. One of those resources is money. So we try to chase the money but our heart also tells us to give back to the community. Did you feel like there was a pressure to do both or some type of... You felt like you were pressured to do one more than the other? Schone: I don't think any of those things at the time, were pressure things. I think it was things that I just wanted to do. I do think that somehow along the line of my life, I've been wired to make a difference in people’s lives. That's what drives me. And as part of my DNA, it's what fuels my energy and excitement, is to see what impact I can have on individuals, companies. Whether it's younger alumni like you or current students or races who want to pursue something, people who work here Winter4Kids. Because I realize that my life was gifted to me and the things that I've been able to accomplish and it took efforts and support and people around me, who cared enough about me to guide me. Maybe to chastise me, and even people who were negative to me gave me the skills to be who I am. So I think I've always been cognizant of the fact that I was the beneficiary of the people caring and helping me and I believe I internalized that, so that's what drives me to make sure that my team, they are as good as can be. Schone: That our impact at Winter4Kids on our youth has significant impact. That current students at Holy Cross, alumni, that if I can share my thoughts, my feelings, my experiences, not as directives but as information that it could be useful for them and for me with the things that they go through. Does that make sense? Christian: It definitely does. Definitely does. Now to today, Winter4Kids, you mention that a lot during our talk. Talk to me about that, what is it? What do you guys stand for? What do you guys do? Schone: Winter4Kids, our sole existence is to make a difference in our kids’ lives. Kids who traditionally don't have access to winter activities, through winter sports and the outdoors. That difference includes better health, through better and more activities but in which attitudes is about nutrition, their own future, the outdoors and opportunity for them to master something they have never done before. And to give them a platform to build upon so that now they have choices, can choose to go to college, can choose to explore a sport. To choose to ignore a practical or physical limitations to enjoy something different and new and the fact that over the last five years, it's been over 8671 kids, our kids and continuing to grow till we get to 10000 kids a year and we'll do about 34 hundred this next year and to be able to use Winter4Kids as a way to change lives, like you're an intern here and I have three Holy Cross interns this year. I think I have Oluchi, Meah and Emma, and they are shaping the future for us. It is an exciting and unique opportunity. Schone: It allows me to take a sport that I enjoy, an inert desire to make a difference in the lives of people, especially young people. The experiences of running a business, gathering the resources to do that and developing with the team. A sustainable plan is the most exciting thing I've ever had to do in my life and it's a blessing, karma, you can call it whatever it is but I get to do all those things a lot because of all the things that I experienced by my life. Christian: Right. Was I the first intern from Holy Cross? Schone: Yes. Christian: I was the guinea pig. Schone: Yes, you were the pioneer. Somebody once told me that pioneers get all the arrows but those that live through the experience get the first choice at prime real estate. Christian: I feel that. Now being a Black man and being a CEO of a winters sports organization, is that really strange to some people? And it definitely carries a stigma... There's a stigma that Black people don't belong in winter sports or they don't want to be in winter sports. How do you, with your platform try to change that? Schone: There's no doubt that winter sports, lacks in multicultural experiences or participation. In the role that I have today, has not always been received by everyone as a net positive for the industry and I ignore them. Christian: How? Schone: Well, the way that I live my life is that I can't control how people feel, I can't control how people think. The only thing that I'm rally in control of is what I do, my integrity and the values by which I live. And understand that, things like privilege and immunity come into play. That is, when you are first in an industry or sport or anything and you're being first is different. The evaluation of you is not the same as those who are from the majority are White. So, Winter4Kids, we have always been focused on what our mission is, how we do these things and create a culture of equity, access and emerging. I tell people today that at Winter4Kids, diversity, inclusion, equity, access and emerging, that's what Winter4Kids is. It's not something we do, so today we represent an example and a model for an environment that is culturally based on equity and access. Schone: Somebody asked me yesterday, how do you recruit people for a diverse company? I don't think that you recruit people, I think you promote the culture that is first and foremost, give everybody access to it, ensure that when they are in that culture that there's equity, that there's fairness across that and that you make it a safe place for people to contribute to the mission and to be themselves. We have a very interesting makeup of a leadership team and I didn't even think about this that, you know, of the 12 to 15 leaders on the management team, seven are female, three are male, four African Americans, we have Latinx. So that wasn't the plan, it happened that way because we are that way. So the question that I have now, is diversity, equity and inclusion a committee or is it a culture? Is it something that you talk about around the table or it's something that is a way of life? I think that it's both, it starts with the talking around the table but it needs to be the way things are, not something that you do. Christian: Yep. I think LeBron hit the nail on the head when he asked about this Black Lives Matter movement. I don't know what the question was but that was the phrase that many use, he said it's not a movement, it's a way of life and this is what... And I think that goes with the community versus culture issues that we have now. A lot of people just, whether it's businesses, companies, institutions giving us something to chase the dog's tail. Something to keep us busy and that sort of community thing versus culture thing where we want to feel this everywhere we go. Whether it's in the classroom, talking about school, whether it's in classroom with my classmates, professors, whether it's in the dorms, at the cafeteria, in the party, we want to feel included everywhere we go. We want to equality, equity everywhere we go not just where the legislation thinks it matters the most or where they think we're only arguing for or fighting for. It's everywhere we go. That's the culture right there. Schone: I agree with that. So now, I have made myself available to my colleagues who are White or of any background, to answer any questions they might have, without fear of judgment and an example is, I had one of my colleagues in the industry who's a publisher of a magazine ask me, and before they asked it, they said I'm a little bit ashamed, I'm sorry if this is uncomfortable, I just want to, and hopefully it's all right. And they asked me, Schone do I call you Black, African American or person of color. And I felt bad because that's where we've gotten to right? Is that, there are individuals out there who don't know what to say and don't know how to say it or who to and I say to them look, anyone of them work for me, because I go to intention. Schone: So if your intentions are good and you just want to understand, to be sensitive to me, then that's okay. I have to ask that about my colleagues who are Hispanic because now I don't know if I say Latino, Latina or Latinx. And I just learned that Latinx is the gender neutral side. The best way for me to ask and say which way, if I'm going to speak about race, which way works for you? I don't know if you know this movie, did you ever see Remember the Titans? Christian: That's my favorite movie, come on now. Schone: That is my favorite. Well, I want you to look up and watch the part of the obituary that was written in... I believe Jones died maybe about 10 years ago, whatever. But what Boone said about him and said about how they got together and I realize that the reason why I have hope is that I believe that we've created a culture where we can have conversations. I've had some people challenge me about the N word. About, have I ever been called that and I go yes even at Winter4Kids, not to my face but the question that some have is, how come on one hand the N word is a bad word right, and on the other hand it's used in music, right? And I said that's a courageous question for you to ask. I would say that it goes back to intentions again. When a person whose White used that word, it was meant to be demeaning, denigrating and to put us in our place. Schone: Within the cultural music, it has different connotations. It is coming from a different place and while the word is bad, which I agree that it doesn't have any real use today, that intentions dictate how things are received. Christian: I think you must have remembered the times... I think there are two things that bring us together, unfortunately one of them has been taken away from us this year because of COVID-19, and that's sports and music and we would just get together like the way we do when we're at concerts, when we're at sporting events and I think the world would be a lot... a way better place, a lot better. Schone: I think it will be. I think whatever happens coming out of this, we're going to be different. We're going to look at a lot of things differently, we're going to look at each other differently and not to minimize the trauma and the pain that COVID-19 and the race issues are causing us. It's going to be better, coming out the other side. I just hope it gets better, quicker. Christian: All this great work, that you've done for your communities, especially out there in Vernon, New Jersey. How do you think the Holy Cross mission statement, men and women for and with others, has helped you do what you do today? Schone: I actually think I live it, maybe. I don't know if I thought about it that way but I think intentionally I've been wired to do it that way and I think that the service of others right, is intentional. The responsibility to make a difference is purposeful and the opportunity to deliver on that mission is to be embraced and not only just embraced, but you need to not only feel it, you have to do it and you have to be it. And you could do all those things and live in this world and be successful and you don't have to sacrifice anything except for those things that are negative to do it. Christian: I think it's important for me to use this platform that I have right now to mention a concern that a lot of my friends have had with their mission statement. They feel as if some people are not included, when we just say men and women and when we mention others it makes people feel like us as the Holy Cross community is on top almost and we are regarding to other people that don't identify as or with the Holy Cross community as other, in a negative connotation. From my perspective and I'm pretty sure from yours and from a lot of people that I know, that's not the case. We want to include everyone and we try our best to include everyone and when we mean with others we do mean us as Holy Cross students and alumni, helping those who haven't sat on the Hill, who haven't experienced that Holy Cross lifestyle. And we are trying to help our communities, whether it's back home, whether its different schools, communities that we've never been to and all types of communities, all types of places in our life. Christian: So I just wanted to I just wanted to take this time to mention that. I think that is very important and maybe we may rephrase this mission statement, and I think that's just a legislative thing that we spoke about, but the culture thing is the most important thing and I think that's something that you are working on and I applaud you for that. So many other alumni are working on as well. Schone: I think that this brings up a good point, that language limits who we are and how we embrace what we does not. I hate labels, because when you define somebody by a label, you are either restricting them or you're limiting some parts of them. So I don't like labels because I don't like being in a box. I am not sure that I want to be... I'm not predictable and so you're right, I think language will evolve. I do think that the intention is to be as broad as possible but isn't that up to us as we take the mission and go forward with it, that our interpretation of that mission and what we do with that is what dictates how it’s received. So yeah, I think that its all of us at the Holy Cross community embracing everybody and what we do in the context of not just service but equity, access and taking the time to get to know each and every one of us as well as we know ourselves. Christian: Right. Has there been a mission statement that you came up for yourself or that you got from someone? That helps you do what you do now. That you live by today. Schone: Unimaginable dreams, inevitable opportunities. Christian: I should have known that. That's the motto for Winter4Kids, for those that don't know. Schone: But just think about that, in the context of where you are today and it’s tough to imagine the unimaginable right? But that's really what dreams are. And I really believe that I'm a living example of being able to do really, really good things most of the time and learning from the things I don't do so well to be able to create and support opportunities for others. Christian: Well Schone, I've got good news and bad news for you. Schone: Ohh oh. Christian: What do you want first? Schone: Give me the bad news. Christian: The bad news is that we're reaching the end of our episode. Schone: Wow okay. Christian: And the good news is we're reaching the end of our episode because it's the fun part, the speed run. So I'm just going to ask you some quick questions and I just want the quickest answers you come up... And if I ask why, the first thing that comes up to your mind. Schone: Okay. Christian: So, you ready? Schone: Yes. Christian: Favorite year at HC and why? Schone: '71. Christian: Is there a reason why? Schone: The reason why is, I got to make the varsity basketball team. When I looked at the list and I had made the team. Christian: Ah cool. Favorite dorm? Schone: Beaven. Christian: Favorite roommate? Schone: Bob Tomlinson. Christian: Saturday night, place to go? Schone: Wellesley. Christian: Three things to change about Holy Cross? Schone: There things to change about Holy Cross? The basketball teams record, that's number one. I'd like to see more interaction across cultures and let me explain, I know this is a short answer, you want a short answer but homecoming weekend, when you have the multicultural event, I'd much rather see that at the Hoval rather than down at the quad. And I'd like to see more Black students as part of the student body. Christian: Okay. Favorite sport? Schone: That I participated in or that I watched? Christian: Either or, it doesn't matter. Schone: My favorite sport actually happens to be basketball. The favorite that's to watch and the Warriors. The favorite thing I like to do is first track skiing, morning gloom slope with music. Christian: Okay. Besides skiing, favorite winter sport? Schone: Besides skiing, favorite winter sport? Football. Christian: Okay. Celebrity you admired growing up? Schone: Muhammad Ali. Christian: Okay. Favorite city to visit? Schone: Amsterdam. Christian: The least favorite job that you had? Schone: Working at UPS when I was at Holy Cross. Christian: Okay. Food to most likely make you cheat on your diet? Schone: Wings. Christian: If you could, and you could why you can't. If you could, five of those you'd invite to Winter4Kids, dead or alive, to ski? Schone: I'd love to invite to my mother and my father, who had never been able to see me accomplish this. Denzel, Martin Luther King, Steph Currie- Christian: Last one, filling in the blank. Schone Malliet is? Schone: Grateful. Christian: Well, Mr. Schone Malliet, thank you very much for taking this time to do this episode with me, it was a great one. I hope the listeners take a lot of things from this. Maura: That's our show. I hope you enjoyed hearing about just one of the many ways that Holy Cross alumni have been inspired by the mission to be men and women, for and with other. A special thanks to today's guest and everyone at Holy Cross who has contributed to making this podcast a reality. If you or someone you know would like to be featured on this podcast, please send us an email at alumnicareers@holycross.edu. If you like what you hear, then please leave us a review. This podcast is brought to you by the office of the alumni relations at the College of the Holy Cross. You can subscribe for future episodes, wherever you find your podcasts. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney and this is Mission-Driven. In the words of St. Ignatius of Loyola, now go forth and set the world on fire. --- Theme music composed by Scott Holmes, courtesy of freemusicarchive.org.

In this episode, Christian Haynes '20 interviews Che Anderson '11 about his work supporting public art, and how his Holy Cross experience inspired him to make his mark on the City of Worcester. Recorded November 20, 2019 --- Transcript Ché: If at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out. Maura: Welcome to Mission-Driven, where we speak with alumni who are leveraging their Holy Cross education to make a meaningful difference in the world around them. I'm your host, Maura Sweeney, from the class of 2007, director of Alumni Career Development at Holy Cross. I'm delighted to welcome you to today's show. Maura: In this episode we hear from Ché Anderson from the class of 2011. A New York native, Ché now claims Worcester as home. After making his mark on campus as a co-founder of the Brother to Brother Committee, Ché continues to make a positive impact on the Worcester community as an alumnus. Currently working as deputy cultural development officer for the City of Worcester, Ché was one of the organizers of the POW! WOW! Worcester Mural Festival. First debuting in 2016, POW! WOW! Worcester is an annual week-long festival that has already curated over 130 pieces of public art. For this great work, Ché was named to Worcester Business Journal's 40 Under 40 list in 2018. Maura: Christian Haynes, from the class of 2020, speaks with Ché about how this work came to be. Starting with his childhood in New York City, they speak about the many people and moments that have shaped Ché as a professional and as a leader. Filled with inspiring takeaways, their conversation showcases the power of putting the Holy Cross mission into action in the community. Christian: I'm here with my man, Ché Anderson. Ché: Hello there. Christian: So let's go ahead, it's your boy Christian, you already know what it is. So I'm talking about... I got to bring myself into this. Ché: I hear you, I hear you. Christian: First question, is it Ché or Shae? I know you have people that have known you for about 10, 20 years that still call you Shae. Ché: Yes, they do, my name is Ché Anderson, hard Ch with the accent over the E. I was named after Ernesto Ché Guevara, and oddly I got that name because my grandmother, rest her soul, was a Black Panther and she was a Black Panther from Harlem. And she raised my father strictly in that environment, and so having his first born son, he wanted to give me a name that, from the way I hear it, was powerful but that said, I would cause a little bit of trouble. And initially he wanted to name me Huey after Huey Newton. Ché: And my mother was just like, "No, I don't want that name". So they landed on Ché, because it was unique, and because they both thought that he was a really interesting and powerful figure. And so you could imagine growing up, now 30 years and people going, "Well either you have a lot to live up to", or, "Do you know what he was about or what he did?". And it's like, "yes", I've read every biography and autobiography I can of that person. Christian: That's wow. Did you feel that type of environment, that Black Panther type in your environment growing up, in your household growing up? Ché: I think that... It's funny, my mom was a correction officer, and worked on Rikers Island in New York. Which, for those that don't know, it's an interesting facility, to say the least. Ché: And I think that my mother always, drove home how important it was to be aware of myself and all my situations. Not only what it meant to walk a street, but what it means to walk the street as a black male, and how that can be perceived by different people. And so some of that was in the ideologies and philosophies of those in the Black Panther party, some of those are just growing up as a black person in New York City, and some of that is from my grandmother coming from South Carolina. So I think that, when you have family, all that legacy comes with you in the way that you're raised or brought up, or the different lessons you're taught. Christian: That's a lot. Ché: It is, it's heavy. Christian: It is heavy. I think that's the right word to use. Do you ever ask your mother why correctional officer was like... Ché: Yeah, apparently my mom was trying to figure it out, I think like most people are in life, in their early twenties and I think she knew that there were some really interesting opportunities and good pertinent opportunities in civil service. And for her, she had actually a friend who was taking the exam to be an officer, and so she said, "You know what, good pension, good paying job if I have a family", and she was recently married, "This could be a great fallback for the family". And then lo and behold, nine months into her tenure, that's when she found out she was pregnant with me. And she did it for 22 years, and went again from Rikers, which is one of the most notorious prisons in our country to working at Manhattan Courts, which is a little more relaxed. Ché: But my mom is the toughest person I know. She's a soldier, she's a warrior, but also somehow like the most loving person ever know. Christian: How close were you and your grandmother, from your mother’s side? Ché: Very, My dad actually wasn't really around much growing up. So my mom's side is who I really knew well. And so my grandmother was the one that kind of took care of me while mom was at work, and so she got to hear a lot of my first words, and first things like that. And my grandmother, it's odd, for work, she would actually clean houses, and so I spent a lot of my Saturday and Sunday mornings going with her to affluent people's houses and sitting on couches watching cartoons. Ché: And so it was an interesting dichotomy, growing up in the Amsterdam Projects where I grew up, which public housing, and then going to these affluent Central Park West houses and seeing what it's like to have a doorman, what it's like to have people who are throwing words like sommelier around, and not having any idea what that meant. And having fancy dogs, and having big flat screen TVs before we had that, when we still had the TV with the knob on it. Which was... but again, all that frames kind of who you are as you go up, right? So because of that I think I always felt comfortable everywhere. Because I was able to experience that at an early age, and around all kinds of people. Because I was able to see all sorts of people from, again, the penurious that were struggling, trying to figure it out, to the princely, that were running around throwing thousands of dollars at their kids, or their nieces and nephews. Christian: That's pretty tough, I thought we had a similar background. My mom was cleaning... she was a home attendant, taking care of the elderly. Coming from the Projects, even going to these houses in Bushwick at the time. They weren't the best houses, but they were still houses. And I guess you could say it's similar, from coming from the Projects not really having nothing, to seeing these fish tanks, these bigger TVs, these rooms that, more than one bedroom, more than two bedrooms. These people have a lot more than me, it's not a lot, but it's a lot more than me. And just spending time with my mother like that, I guess that made me more comfortable being in different spaces, like you say. Christian: But I remember the first time I learned about you, hear about you, learn about you, because in class I was into stats, psych stats, and I was on the website, Holy Cross website in a see 40 under 40. So what stood out to me was that title, and it was a black man. So I got to figure out what this is, and I realized he was a Holy Cross alum. I was like, the first person I had- Marcellis. I know you know this man. Ché: Big shout to Marcellis Perkins too. Christian: Of course, he got some questions for you too. I was like, "Who is this man?", He was like, "Yeah, Ché Anderson, yada yada, alumni 2011". And we actually going to meet up pretty soon, I'll come through if you want, and then that was the first time I met up with you at Crossroads. I'm like, "Yeah, he seemed like a cool dude, talk fast". Ché: I do talk fast, sorry about that. Christian: No, you're good, yeah yeah yeah yeah... no but you talk real fast. I was like, "Yeah, he seem like a cool dude", I remember the first time you mentioned... That was the first time you mentioned to me that you had connects with the Pawtucket Red Sox, and then there was a big thing at the time that they were coming from... Ché: From Pawtucket to Worcester. Christian: Yeah to Worcester, I think they made it here right? Ché: Yeah, they are opening day is April, 2021. Christian: Yeah so, baseball was a big thing for me, still is. So I was like, "Yeah, I got to say connect to this man right here". Christian: But I know you got a lot of work with art and street art, so just going back to your childhood or teenage years, whatever, do you remember your first time experiencing that or seeing it and admiring it. Whether it was street art, art, any type of art form? Ché: Yeah, so my mom, when she did have days off, we had to go somewhere, every time. I think that part of her raising me was that she wanted me to experience everything that she couldn't. And that literally meant everything. Some Saturdays we would just go for a walk and we'd walk Central Park and walk down Fifth Avenue and just window shop, but it was cool to just see all the different things people were getting, and FAO Schwarz, which was down on 59th and then Fifth Avenue, the toy store from Big with the big piano and we'd go in there, and I'd inevitably convinced her to get me like a Ninja Turtle or something. But I had to see it, it was this big experience and we'd go to the American Museum of Natural History, or we go to the Guggenheim. And often I was way too young to really comprehend it, but my mom tried to make sure I saw everything. And I think that that... Those are some of my earliest memories experiencing art. And I remember walking through parts of Harlem, or parts of Brooklyn, or lower Manhattan, and you see graffiti and places but you're kind of fed this narrative that that's bad, that's desolate areas, you don't want that.   And oddly, it probably wasn't until seven or so years ago that I had this experience, and it's actually what led me on this path that I thought was really interesting. I was in Worcester, Post grad, living in a city I was sort of familiar with, but I didn't get off the Hill as much as I probably should have while I was a student. And the artist Banksy, from London, one of the most prominent public artists living today in modern history was doing a residency in New York City.   And my friends were running around taking pictures and posting them on Instagram, and I needed a new cool profile pic so I ran down to New York and I was blown away by how many people were traveling to New York City to catch a glimpse of this artwork. I came from Massachusetts, people were coming from Connecticut, and from Jersey, and growing up in New York, and you get this, quite often you stayed in your borough.   If you didn't have to travel to see family or a close friend that lives somewhere else. If you were from Manhattan, you stayed in Manhattan. If you were from Harlem, which is part of Manhattan, but you stayed in Harlem and that was it. And so people were coming from Staten Island taking the ferry to look at this artwork and I said, "This is awesome, where else is this happening?"   And eventually I started researching, and I learned about Wynwood, and more about what's happening in Bushwick, Brooklyn, and Philadelphia has this mural arts program that's been changing the city since the 1970's and I was like, "Hey, Worcester could do this, we have the wall space for sure, but we have a creative community, we've always kind of been an alternative community, let's see where it goes". And that was kind of it from there, it took off.   But it's one of those things where it's... I tell people, "You grew up in New York City and you don't really appreciate growing up in New York City until you leave New York City".   You know what I mean? You don't realize how many things you have at your fingertips, and how alive the city is, and how active it is, until you're at a city that closes down at midnight and you're just like, "What's going on?" Christian: I'd say 10 o'clock. Ché: Or until you're at a place and you're like, "Aw man, I can't sleep and I'm starving", but there's no bodega. Or you're like, "Aw man, I really want a Uber or taxi", and it's like, "No, there are none in the area right now, it's too late". And so it's not lost on me that what really made me appreciate being a New Yorker was not living in New York, and having to sort of figure out where to find the pockets that made me feel like I was home. Christian: I would've thought that you done a lot of research about graffiti, especially in the 80's in New York. Ché: Oh yeah, of course, at this point I have, but growing up, no. And I tell people this all the time, I think that people see 40 under 40, I got this award for this public art project that I'm always taking pictures with murals and I'm doing talks, and stuff about murals... That's all in the last 10 years. I didn't study that, I'm not classically trained in any of that. There are people that'll bring up famous artists to me, from different movements, and I'm just like, "Nope, no idea what you're talking about". But it goes to a point of, people have their belief of a right way to do something, and that you have to be the biggest scholar and that. You don't, like you can just be passionate about something, you could really like something and find your niche in that world.   And that's what it is for me. I appreciate the culture, I respect it, I've learned my history on it. So I'm not just someone that's a culture vulture that came in and was like, "I'm going to do this thing". No, I've sat with graffiti writers, I've had to hold some graffiti writers names close to the vest because no one needs to know that. But the fact of the matter is that as a person who appreciates neo-contemporary art, which is just the really fancy way of saying street art or graffiti, I was able to come humbly to a table and have a seat at it now, and have just open conversation.   And so this is a person who... I want it to be a lawyer, I was a poli- sci major, I interned with the Manhattan DA for seven years, that was it for me. And so to go from that, to this sort of hobby that's become a big part of my now job and everything else, I think is a testament to the fact that if at 23, 24, 25 you find something that's really keeping you up at night, and that's making you wake up early in the morning, go pursue that. There's no right or wrong way to do life, we're all just figuring it out. Christian: Yeah. You mentioned neo... What is it? Ché: Oh, neo-contemporary art. It's a recently used, made up term, to allow people to contextualize what street art is. Street art has this sort of trivial, kind of fun sound to it, but if I talk to you about Renaissance art, you're like, "Oh wow, that's Renaissance art". Or if I mention modern art you're, "Oh my God, that's modern".   So people started calling street art neo-contemporary, new-age contemporary art, because you're now having people that have taken artwork and put it outside to make it public, and now they're taking that same aesthetic and bring it back inside some museums, and galleries, and spaces like that. So it's just a newly coined term to make it sound more official. Christian: Sounds like... So I'm going to dance class right now, and it sounds like, what they deal with B-boy and B-girl, and turn it into break dance, it's a commercialize it. Do you think it's the same? Ché: It's similar, I think that there are... the sad reality of it is that there are certain cultural norms that different people experience, and to make the masses feel comfortable with it, it becomes a different thing.   It's like when you talk about hip hop versus rap, there's none of this. But for some people, it's like, "Well, hip hop is a bit more nuanced, and safe, and rap is grungy and dirty and raw", and I tell people when it comes to street art and graffiti and such, I don't see a difference.   I think that they are synonyms, it's semantics. Both are generally painted with spray paint, outdoor. The difference is that one tends to be formalized and legal, and one's illegal. But if I paint a beautiful portrait of Dr. King on a wall, but I do it illegally, but it's gorgeous. It's perfect rendering, is that graffiti or is that street art? If I pay you $2,000 to paint your name on my wall, is that graffiti or street...   We get too deep into the weeds of it. Sometimes you got to just appreciate it. Again, I've seen some of the most beautiful art I've seen, bar none, gallery, museums included, online included. I've seen some gorgeous things people do with letters. And you think about typography in general, and how lettering, and hand lettering, and hand scripting, and hand styling has grown right from the clothes you wear, and the person who chose that font, to the way you type. There's a certain nuance to that.   And I've seen some of the best done publicly, by just graffiti writers. But that's just me. Christian: I think you did mention this, but do you make art yourself? Any type of art? Singing doesn't count cause you say you can't sing. Ché: Ow man, I can sing, just not well is what I'm saying. I don't do visual art.   But here's a fun fact that most people don't know about me. I write poetry. I have since I was younger. I don't perform it, I don't really share it, but I do. I've always done that, it's been what I turned to when I'm really stressed out or something, I write down a poem about something. And it's one of the main reasons why when I was on campus, and we had this organization called the Brother to Brother committee, we did this poem Black Man Rising, and we did it. A big part of doing that was that... it was like my outlet to actually perform some semblance of poetry. So no, I don't draw or anything. Christian: But you mentioned the Brother to Brother committee. Ché: Yeah. Christian: Turn into the Male Involvement Coalition, which I am the co-chair of. And we just performed Black Man Rising in The Griot. Did you hear about that? Ché: I did not hear about this particular, no I didn't. Christian: I do have a video I'll show you after. Ché: I need that, I need to see it. Christian: And we did perform it in my sophomore year at BSU fashion show at Mechanics Hall. Ché: Do you kick it off? Christian: Yeah. Ché: Are you the, "Look at yourself again. Alright... alright... You're not a Black Man Falling, You're a Black Man Rising, by James H. Chapman. Christian: We switched it up, it was dedicated to Rob Jones. Ché: Okay. All right, I hear you. Christian: It was a cool experience, and I just found out that you were the founding members of Brother to Brother committee. So talk to me about that and how it was back then. Ché: So when I was a sophomore, there was a conference members of the camps were invited to, and it was called the CHAS conference, the coalition for higher achievement and success... consortium for higher achievement success. And they had one that was specific to black and brown males. And so a group of us attended it, and were so uplifted at Skidmore by the people we're hearing from.   I believe at Skidmore, by the people we were hearing from and hearing new initiatives at other colleges and campuses, when we came back to campus, we ended up just meeting a bunch of times and discussing some of the issues that were affecting people in our communities. As we were talking about doing things inevitably, we hit a point where we started doing events but we weren't a recognized student organization. We were just a bunch of students doing these things that having talks, having dialogues, facilitating conversations and we were just dynamic. You had students that wanted to be architects, that wanted to be lawyers or wanted to be doctors that were athletes, that were thespians. So we realized we kind of had something and said, "Okay, we could formalize this in RSO." There was Jeff Harris, who was class of 2012 went to high school with me and there were these two things we did in high school.   One was a daily affirmation and the other one was Black Men Rising that Jeff performed. So he introduced that to the campus and that became our calling card for this group. Then Antonio Willis-Berry, he was 2013, there was this Shawn whose last name is escaping me, but he was class of 2013, Jose Paz, who was class of 2012. We just had this group. Then there was a gentleman named Tyrone Billingsly who was kind of the elder statesman of our group along with Eric Collazo. The two of them didn't want a role officially. They were happy being like ex-official members but just guiding us because they'd been here longer. So when we finally got recognized, I was a senior advisor and Jeff was one of the co-chairs and we sort of just became this network of men on this campus that just wanted to talk about issues that impacted or afflicted us or just talk about uplifting things that were happening in the community, talk about music, eat some good food.   It really was his brotherhood that got developed. It's funny because initially, the way I became the Brother To Brother Committee is it started out as a Black and Brown Coalition, which sounded militant for some people, which we were cool with. But we said, "You know what? If indeed, we want to open this up, there's an opportunity," and we realized, You know what? There were folks on campus who weren't Black or Brown that were extreme allies, that were on the front lines for all these conversations and so we shouldn't exclude them like that. They're our brothers in arms. To be honest, there were women on campus who were willing to pick up arms, so to speak, and stand on those front lines and protest and argue with us in the same way. So there was this sort of overarching brotherhood, sisterhood, familial aspect of it.   But it all started with this group of brothers. So that was kind of that. What was crazy is, in the very first year as a recognized student organization, we have this picture that I love of ... there were five of us and we held seven awards from the SGA award ceremony, three for the organization and four for individual members of the organization. I was like, "This has to be a record for a first-year organization." It felt great to sort of have to prove why we belonged and then show like with our work that we were here just to make the campus a community, like a true community, which is wild.   Honestly, I remember the first time you told me about ... first of all I heard about the Men Involvement, the MIC. I was just like, "That sounds familiar. What happened to the BBC in it?" I think Rob Jones was just like, "Oh yeah. It kind of became this other group." I remember meeting you and Marcellis and some other brothers and I was like, "I couldn't have hoped for anything better." Part of it, it makes you sad. You're like, "Wow, they have some of the same conversations we had almost a decade ago." You wonder if that's sort of just the nature of being on a campus, having new students and you're always onboarding new people. But to see that there were people here who were dedicated and you know what I mean? It makes me happy to like sit across from you and be like, "Oh man, this is me 10 years ago." Christian: I appreciate that. I really do. I think that's the reason why we ended up calling it MIC because they were people who didn't identify as being Black or Brown, but who had the same struggles that we have as males and that's why we're open to any male. Our meetings are open to anybody. There are a lot of people who want to help us, who feel like even if they don't agree with some of the things that we believe in, they want us to know that. I think that results into a great dialogue, great conversations and us doing things on campus to made the campus better, so yeah. Ché: So Black Man Rising was super controversial the first time we did it. Christian: Why? Ché: Because effectively, you had this group of ... and our first group that did Black Men Rising were Jeff Harris, 2012, who played basketball, Freddie Santana, who's Puerto Rican, from New York, my year, 2011. Mudiaga Ohimor, who my year as well. Mud was 250, 6' 8". He was a big dude. Jonathan St. Firmin who was another New York guy who we know. Jonathan is probably like 5' 9" and if he's taller than 5' 9" and he's listening, I'm sorry Jonathan, but about 5' 9" to me, probably like 150, like a smaller dude and then myself. So you had this interesting range of gentlemen. Some were quieter, some were bigger, into parties. Some were athletes, some weren't, but you had this sort of force of effectively militant looking men talking about the powers of a Black man on a predominantly White campus.   So people were like, "You know what? This may not be the best thing for us, where we come off as too aggressive." We were just like, "Us? Aggressive? We're going to do it anyway. We're going to do it anyway." So we did. There were people inside our group, there were people inside the administration who were kind of like, "You know, this could not go the right way." We said, "There's something to speaking your truth that's important. This is what we experience and maybe we have a dialogue around that afterwards." But we did it and we got a standing ovation and organizations around Worcester asked us to come off campus and perform it, because it was something that was unique at the time for this group that you may not always see together kind of speaking truth to power, if you will. So yeah man, it was something. Christian: I feel that, no, I definitely feel that. I remember first being introduced to it ... My first year as the MIC freshman and sophomore year it was, I'll say, very slow. Not a lot of people attended. But like myself personally, I didn't feel as if it was that important. I wasn't into this, who I am now, into this like Black man power, being a Black man, especially on this campus. I wasn't really into that. I was just trying to go through school, get my degree, all that stuff, whatever. But then I really talked to Marcellis and other people, they introduced me to that. Like the importance of being a Black man. Christian: I know even coming from New York, the only thing I had to worry about was the police, because there wasn't a lot of White people that I really had to worry about. I came from a really mixed culture, like everybody from every ... It's New York. You know what I'm saying? You see everybody. But just being on campus was a different vibe and I didn't get that notion until sophomore year. Towards the end of sophomore year, that's when I would ... actually, towards the end of sophomore year, second semester after we did Black Man Rising I saw the power that we had. I saw the audience that we had, the support that we had. It opened my eyes and it was just like, "Damn. We do got power." Ché: You do. Christian: When you talk about it being controversial now, it will make me do it even more. I think freshman year and sophomore year, beginning of sophomore year I was like, "Hey, it was controversial. Let me not ... " Ché: It takes time to, I think, part of the collegiate experience, particularly if you're a student of color or someone whose English wasn't their first language or something to that effect there's the natural onboarding, right? You're 18, 17, 19 years old trying to figure out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. Trying to make it to 8:30 classes when everyone knows they suck. Christian: Mine was actually pretty good. Ché: Well lucky you, I guess, but you have that experience and then it's how do you socialize? How do you meet people? How do you make friends? How do you figure out who you are? Who are you, right? Whose are you? How do you look? How do you dress? What do you comfortable in? There was a guy when I was at Holy Cross named Tom, everyone called him Pajama Pants Tom. Pajama Pants Tom literally wore pajama pants to everything. He worked at Kimball. He wore them to class. Pajama Pants Tom had a 4.0 and took six classes every semester from the time he was a first-year student. He audited classes because he just wanted to learn more. I think he got a Fulbright, went abroad, came back with long hair. Looked just like Jesus. It was amazing. Pajamas Pants Tom was one of the smartest people I ever met.   But if you looked at him and saw this kid walking into class in the winter in pajama pants and flip flops, you're like, "What's wrong with this person?" but he was comfortable with himself early on and so that didn't matter. So I think that some get there earlier but there's that dynamic of just like, "I'm just trying to get these A's and go on." But also real quick, I just have to shout out Shawn Johnson because I realized his last name was Johnson, as well as Matt Harper and Darien and Jose Paz and Jeremiah Gonzalez.   Darien Henry was actually our freshmen apprentice, our first year student who was part of the group. The reason why I had to shout them out the same way that Eric and Tyrone was, because when I say it was a brotherhood, like I meant that, right? Like Lance Williams, like there are people who I don't see all the time, but if ever something happened, if every one of them had a big thing, Tony Zelayandia, that's family. It really is. So from the time that we were 20, 21, 19 years old to now, I'm 30 it is intriguing to me to think I'm on campus and we started this thing here and now people are going to be class 2023 they're on campus and people are still joining this thing. Man, that's something. Christian: Yeah, we definitely got it. We got freshmen really into it. It's just the legacy that you have and you see it grow and grow and it's just amazing. I'm glad to be a part of that legacy. MIC... Brother to Brother... It's a brotherhood that's kind of... so I notice... so I read that your mother played a big part in you going to Holy Cross, right? Ché: Yeah. Man. Christian: I feel like the question is asked a lot, what made you go to Holy Cross? What made you stay at Holy Cross? Ché: That's a good question. When I was deciding where I wanted to go, being the first in my, I think, semi-extended family to go to college, my mom, who was like, "I have to do everything right with her firstborn," hit a point where she said, "You know. You need to go to Harvard." I was just like, "You're right. I should go to Harvard." So we looked at schools, mainly looked at Ivy league schools, but I was going to a Jesuit high school in Harlem, New York. Big shout out to Rice High School. Christian: Wait, what's the name of it? Ché: Rice High School. Christian: Right. I feel like I know people from there but it's not there anymore. Ché: Kemba Walker- Christian: Right. Okay. He's not there anymore. Ché: ... plays for the Boston Celtics went to Rice High School. But no, my high school is not there anymore, which is sad. It's sad. The bodega across street's still there. Christian: It's still there. Ché: Rice not there. But I was looking at a lot of Ivy league schools. My mom, wanted me to look at Morehouse because she thought there was something special about being, again, around other men who look like me and maybe had similar struggles or similar situations. Actually, a brother who was at Rice High School said, "You know what I think what would be a great institution for him? College of the Holy Cross." My mom looked into it, saw similarities to my high school. Thankfully, it wasn't an all boys school, all men's college. I did that for four years in high school, but she said, "I think this would be a great space for you. It's not too big. Great academics." At that time I felt that I was an athlete, so she was like, "Maybe you can do something around sports." I did not. I did not while I was here. Christian: We're going to talk about that too. Ché: No. But after talking about it, it actually was my second choice. After all the looking at colleges, I thought I wanted to go to Columbia. For me, I was like, "That's where I'm going, it's 20 blocks from where I grew up. One of my best friends in the world was going there." It was perfect. My mom said, "You need to leave New York." It actually is one of the best decisions she's ever sort of made for me. At the time I was angry, but her thing was so much of my family is in New York and stayed in New York and I needed to see something else. I had to see another part of the world. Oddly enough, it was only four hours away, but I said, "Okay. We'll see Holy Cross. Then if I don't like it, I guess I'll transfer." During my first semester here, I actually was uncomfortable.   I just it was too far and all my friends were back in New York and I was trying to acclimate to the new environment and Worcester wasn't New York City. I remember calling her and saying, "Ma, I need to go back home. I got to transfer to Columbia." She said, "Nope." She said, "Nope. I'm not helping you with any of the tuition, so you do that if you want to." Christian: You're paying for it. Ché: Right and I was just like, "Nope. I'm broke." I think for her it was, "You know what? You got to see this through and at the end of the day, if you don't like it, come back to New York." I find it to be intriguing that now it's been 13 years since I first got to Worcester and I still live here. Now I'm one of the biggest Cheerleaders in the city. But that's because of my mom kind of making me get here and honestly because of the campus, over time, making me fall in love with it. There was a person here before Rob named Boyd Servio-Mariano, Dr. Boyd Servio-Mariano. He's a doctor now, so I got to say that. Doc, which is what I call him, he spotted me as a first year student. There was a competition, a dance contest, during ALANA Student Weekend. Oh yeah, I used to boogie. I used to get down. So I got up on stage and won this dance contest. Christian: You won. Ché: Yeah. Yes I did. Christian: What was the competition? Ché: It was just they played music and you've got the freestyle to it and they played like an old Chris Brown song. It was Run It or something. I won and that was Friday night. Then Saturday night they did a trivia contest for Explore Asia. There was a group called Asia, which was for Asian students or Asian-American students. Christian: It's still here. Ché: So they had an Asian trivia contest and I went up against a kid, Chris Bondoc who actually went to my first high school before I transferred high schools. He's an Asian-American student. We had a trivia contest and I won. Point for me, take that Chris, all these years later. But Doc grabbed me and was just kind of like, "If you come here, you got to come find me." I was like, "All right, older guy. That's strange." Then I do come to campus, I realized because he went to my high school and at the time again, I was a young person with a lot of energy and didn't know all the best places to put it, so I was just running around and going crazy.   He grabbed me up and said, "Hey, you should come to this multicultural peer education group." I was just like, "No, I'm not going to do that. I'm not. I'm sorry." Then the MPEs, received tickets to the Boston Celtics game in Worcester. I said, "Oh, I need tickets to this game." He goes, "Only way to get tickets is if you come to a few meetings." I was just like, "Ah. You got me." Christian: He got you. Ché: So I came to the meetings and I loved it and I loved what they were talking about and I was all for it. then I went to the Celtics game and that was it. I'd inadvertently found myself a mentor. We literally had a conversation this past weekend. That's my guy. But he's another person who worked in the Office of Multicultural Education and picked me up and helped mold me into a productive person. That's what helped keep me at Holy Cross that he introduced me to guys like Tyrone Billingsly and Eric Collazo and other brothers on campus that were doing great things. He kind of forced me into, or some organizations that led to me getting on the BSU board and knowing the infrastructure to help found the Brother To Brother Committee.   He got me involved off campus and working with local junior high schools and high schools and talking to young people off campus and understanding what nonprofits role in developing a city were or an interfacing with a college. He kept me on the right kept me in shape when I stepped out of line, like a big brother would. So really, I think that he's a big part of that. I had somebody to look out for me because honestly, we all have on campus who knows kind of what happens, right? Like do I just spiral out and kind of not go on to do some things I've done. I don't know. So I think that's what kept me. My mom got me here, to be honest and then I had a mentor, I had a big brother who made sure I finished out strong. Christian: You kind of answered my next question. Who you we went to when anything went well or went wrong. Ché: I had some upperclassmen, like I said, Tyrone. I got Lawrence Dickson who play basketball. He's a cool dude. I saw him at the game the other night. Eric Collazo who was my RA my first year, rocky start, but then I was dancing at his wedding. When I say the brotherhood is strong, I mean that. So I think those are the people I turn to. And then there are people younger than me too, right? Like Jeff who wants a high school with me was a guy I roomed with my junior year when he was a sophomore. We had a quad. My first year roommate was my roommate every single year. That's still one of my best friends. If anyone could ever marry him, which, tough order, I'll be his best man. That's that.   Big shout out to Stefan. But I feel like I had this network also and I have to give her a huge shout out. Brianna Turner, who was my year at Holy cross. Licensed Social Worker, dynamic woman. They used to call us the velvet glove and the iron fist because Bri could make something out of nothing. She was just dynamic and got things done. We were the two co-chairs or the leads, I guess, because NPS didn't have co-chairs. So she was very task-oriented, goal-oriented, task master, bullet point list and I was the velvet glove. Like I'm going to make the sound beautiful and like sell it to the masses. It worked well because we both knew our strengths.   She was another person who those days where I was like, "I don't feel like doing this," would pick me up by my collar and be like, "Nah, come on. We got stuff to do. Let's get after it. So I learned a lot about project management as a student here because of Bri. I don't think Bri would even consider that or acknowledge that or call it project management. But she was someone who got me to understand, task management. I took that with sort of the personality that I had and I'm like, that's what helped me become a project manager for the City. Christian: That's fire. So I will have to say my person is Rob Jones. Shout out to Rob Jones. Ché: Big shout out to Rob Jones. Christian: He put me into MIC, put me on to a MIC and kind of like forced me into MIC, in a way. Ché: I see a trend. That was the trend. Christian: I think we all need those people to go to even just to talk to. I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but did you ever feel uncomfortable because of how you looked, or who you ... Christian: ... feel uncomfortable because of how you looked or who you were on campus? Ché: Yeah, I- Christian: Or even, so sorry to cut you off, have you ever felt the impostor syndrome? Ché: Oh, I still feel imposter syndrome now. Yeah. To answer the first part, your question, I am a lot of things. There are a lot of words to describe me, right. But for me, I'm an African American male from New York City, right. I love hip hop and rap music. I love ridiculous movies. I love sports. Some of that is considered stereotypical, right. Expected of me as a six foot three male who looks like me. And I think I struggled with that at first when I got to campus, right. I started listening to a lot more Bruce Springsteen, and Def Leppard, and Poison, and Mötley Crüe, and country music, which I never listened to growing up, but I was like all right, Dixie Chicks is going to be it because I want it to fit in to what a Holy Cross student was, right. I stopped wearing the stuff that I was wearing and started switching up and going, all right. I could wear some khakis and boat shoes. Christian: Right what you're wearing now. Ché: Yeah, but I wear this for work. Don't come at me like that, all right.   Don't do me like that. I have to go in a closet, all right. But honestly, right, I was just like this is what's expected of a Holy Cross student. And I went through that for a year of just why am I wearing these cardigans all the time? Honestly, right. Because that I thought that was ... And then it took me a minute to get comfortable in myself to be like you know what? If you didn't hear the new Gucci Mane album, that's your fault. You're missing out, right. I'm not the one ruined and things. And yeah, I mean I dress like this for work, but in all seriousness, I think that getting back into whatever I felt was appropriate for me and whatever culture I represented, it took a minute, but I got there. And I think that as far as imposter syndrome, I think that was part of it, right. I was trying to acclimate and blend in because I wanted to feel like I was a part of something, not realizing I was already a part of something.   And even now I find myself in some rooms, or on some boards, or on some committees and I walk in and I'm just like I can't believe I'm here. And I think that almost everyone feels. I know famous, well-paid, well-off people that I've got a chance to meet who will confide that they feel like they don't belong in some of the rooms they get, or they feel like they shouldn't have won the awards compared to some of their peers. And I think that's just natural. You know what I mean? I think when you do something extraordinary, quite often you don't expect to do something extraordinary. It happens and you fall into it, and you're like oh my God, here's this thing. And a lot of that is just a team around you. I have a team around me of friends, and coworkers, and confidence, mentors and mentees that will lift me up when I need it. And like, "You did some dope, you did a TED talk. That's great. Enjoy that."   And the ones that will deflate my ego sometimes. They're just like, "You're acting out. Relax. All right, let's not forget the way you dress for work," like you did to me. So I think that's all important to your makeup. A lot of people will say look at your five closest friends and that'll tell you who you are. And I think that that's a really simplistic way to look at it, but the people that you surround yourself with, the people that you spend most of your voluntary time with, that tells you a lot about who you are and who you can be. They're the ones that define some of your limitations, however you may see them, because they're going to limit you or they're going to push you to whatever's next. And so I'm lucky to have some people that I consider good friends or just kind of friends that I can call on and say, "Here's this crazy opportunity." They'll be like, "Go get it. Go after it. And if you don't get it, at least now you know how to do this thing that can maybe get the next opportunity to you." Christian: Told you I was going to get back to that athletic dream that you had, because honestly, all jokes aside, I had the same goal. I was trying to walk on to the baseball team. It didn't work out. I think that was probably the toughest thing I ever had to face all my life. I mean I went from a real high to a real low, and it was just like I was doing things that I probably would've never done before. I felt like I was trying to find myself again because before that happened I was a baseball player. After that, I didn't know who I was or what I was. I was really trying to find myself. I feel like you probably went through the same thing. Ché: Similar. I think that that I was always a nerd first. You know what I mean? I was always an academic, but I love sports and I was okay at them, and so it's funny, I got here. That did not work out, obviously, walking on or anything. And then played club basketball, intramurals. We won intramurals four years, twice in the A league, twice in the B league, a big shot, but we lost the championship. Anthony DiMichele, who's a football player, they beat us. And if I don't mention it, he was going to mention it, or make a comment or something when they posted it, so I just got to put it out there. But I never stopped playing. The school is getting a new field house, right. And that's fine. But back before they destroyed the last field house, my name was on the back board up until two years ago, right. Because we did a dunk contest and I dunked and put my name up with a sticker. That is like the best part of any legacy I got sports-wise on campus, and that was cool. That was cool that it still stayed there. But I think, back to your point, at some point you have to rebrand, just figure out what your thing is, right. It's like if you're a person that threw amazing parties in college, and then you look back and you're like wow, I'm 53 and I still throw these crazy house parties. Not saying that's not fine. If that's your thing, cool. Shout out to all my 53-year-olds throwing parties. But that just wouldn't be what I want to be known for, right. I'd hope that I had accomplished something in my life. And I think that a big part of the growth of your experience through your time on a campus is understanding that you can be dynamic. You don't have to be ... In high school you kind of fall into well, I am an athlete. I'm a great student. I'm the captain of the chess team. You have that thing that defines you. Ché: And I feel like as you grow, you want to be a utility person, you want to be dynamic. You want people to go, "Oh yeah, Christian. I know him from this thing," in one room and then another room go, "Oh right, but he's also really great at this thing." I think that you can be many things to many people, and that's something that it took me a while to learn, but once I did, that was it. I want it to be the Renaissance of all Renaissance. Christian: So I got a lot more questions. So all right, after your Holy Cross years. Oh wait, so a question. What are the untold stories of Holy Cross from your end? Ché: The untold stories of Holy Cross. Christian: Yeah, spilling the beans out here. Ché: There's a trillion untold stories of Holy Cross. Christian: We just need one. Ché: All right. One thing that happened on campus one year was we were talking about the experiences that students of color have on predominant white institutions campus. And we thought about some of the HBCUs and how they have yard shows, right. Stomp shows and such. And so we threw one. So when I was a senior, we figured out ways to finagle some money. Christian: On campus? Ché: On campus. And some of the administrators had contacts because they're a part of historically black Greek letter organizations. And we rented a stage. And right in the Kimball Quad, right down the stairs, the same way they do battle of the bands, we took that stage, we brought out four step teams. We had the Rhythm Nation Steppers also perform. We had people cooking out, right. They were cooking burgers, catfish, fried fish, like they did back down South. People were doing sides and soul food. We have food from the local places. Addie. Do you know Addie? Addie wasn't around at the time, this place called Sweet Teas, but yeah, same kind of feel, right. We even got some food from up at Home Style, right. And we got a microphone, and we had a DJ, and the DJ was playing hip hop, urban music the whole time. And then when there was time for show time, they did their step show, and we had a ball. And then we throw after party afterwards up at Hogan.   And for me it was amazing because for that six-hour period we got to feel like the campus was ours, right. And I think that that, for me, was a beautiful thing because the students came from BC, and from BU, and Becker, and Clark. I mean it was packed, not just Holy Cross students, because other people wanted to see what it'd be like if they also, at their traditionally none necessarily super diverse campus, can come and see just what a mass of us would look like, and what a party for all of us looked like. And it was something. And so I'd say that it was something I wish would've continued after we were gone because I think it is a good reminder of what can happen.   Similar to when Holy Cross played Howard, and Howard brought the band, and the dancers, and everyone up. And then four of us ended up going down to Howard the next weekend to visit. Class one Friday wasn't important that weekend. But we went down to Howard and we got to go to their homecoming, and there were so much love from Howard. They brought us on the field. We got to do the swag surf with everybody, because it was just oh, look at these three students of color who are extending themselves beyond Worcester to come down here to this area. And so that love was something that literally inspired us to bring it back and have this yard show step show. So there's some stuff that doesn't make it through kind of the storytelling pass down components of what we're doing, but is something that one of the things I hang my hat on this campus. Christian: You definitely should. Ché: I was excited. Christian: But transitioning into after college. So MCPHS. Got it. Boom. University. Right. Assistant director of engagement or student affairs? Ché: Student activities, student engagement. Christian: Okay. And initially wanted to get into law and government, but ended up there. Ché: At a college. Christian: Right. If you want to talk about that, you can. Ché: Yeah. Christian: Yeah, go ahead. Ché: Yeah. So I was prelaw, poli-sci. I got to my senior year and realized I don't think I want to be a lawyer anymore. And after my mom stopped crying, she was like, "What are you going to do?" Christian: I mean hold on. Not that there aren't any lawyers coming out of Holy Cross. Did she expect that? Ché: Oh yeah. No, for her, that was it. Christian: Interesting. Ché: My son, the lawyer was how a lot of conversations started. That was a thing. Christian: So Thanksgiving was- Ché: It was awkward. It was awkward, yeah. I only got one serving of mac and cheese, so you know how that goes. But she effectively was just like, "What are you going to do?" And I said, "For the first time in my life, I really don't know, but I do know I'm not moving home. I'm going to figure it out." And I start applying to jobs and looking for opportunities. And one of the former VPs here was Jackie Peterson, who's amazing. She recommended that I apply for the position at MCPHS. And I was staying on campus. I was working at [OME 00:49:20] for the summer, and they paid me a small stipend and then I got to live on campus, so I got a place to stay. And I interviewed for this position that was totally above my punching weight. You know what I mean? I was like I'm not going to get this. And Dean Peterson sends a recommendation and it got me the interview.   And again to that earlier point, right, sometimes you just need that foot in the door to make it happen, and I must've crushed the interview because they pulled me in and said, "Hey, we think you'd be great for this position." Right. First person ever in this position, I get to build and develop a program based on some other things they've been doing, and I said, "Let's do it." And I spent two years there working with students, working for students, engaging with people. The highlight of my time there is I got inducted into Phi Lambda Sigma, which is a pharmacy fraternity, not a pharmacist, but in this pharmacy frat, so shout out to all my brothers and sisters from Phi. Christian: I tried to hold it in. Ché: No, that's cool. That's cool. I got a pin and everything. It's official. But you know what? While there I had a supervisor who was a Dean of students, effectively the de facto leader of campus, named Shuli Xi, and he was so into the idea of me being a statesman. He would always say that to me. Don't be a politician, be a statesman. You want to be a person of and for the people and with the people, not just someone looking to get elected. And because of that, he brought me into his government affairs meeting. He made sure that when there was a consortium of the colleges that, I guess, I served on the student activities one, but also went to some of the student affairs ones in general with people who were in positions way above my own.   When I told him I wanted to join a committee at the chamber of commerce, he said, "Fine, and we'll give you the time off you need when you got to go to those meetings." When I told them I want it to be a Rotarian, and at the time I was one of the youngest Rotarians in the city, part of the Worcester Rotary Club, he said, "Great, we'd love to have MCPHS represented there." And so he supported sort of the dynamism of me going I don't know what I want to do, but I want to do everything and see what's going on. And he was cool with that. Even down to when I went and told him I was leaving to go work for the city, for the government, he wasn't like, "Oh my God," he was just like, "I'm sorry to lose you. But yeah, that's the next step of your life." He looked out for me as a person, which I appreciated so much. And my time there was great. I know a lot of pharmacists now and optometrists. Getting my glasses is super easy. If ever I need acupuncture, I get a discount.   That's sweet. But it was a great step in transitioning from 22 to 24 because I learned how to be in charge of something, right. Student activities was mine. The budget, I managed the Student Government Association, I developed a campus activities board and managed them. And so I learned project management, I learned people management. It was great, and it was a perfect transferable thing for kind of the next step in my career. So it was a kind of unique path. But again, it goes back to there's no right way to do anything. You kind of figure it out as you go. Christian: So I wanted to ask you what do you think has a big impact on a community? Let's say for yourself as an individual working at a desk, law and government. That's my view. Law and government. Or working with the community as you do now? Ché: So the answer I'm going to give you is a cop out answer, I'm going to let you know that, but there's a reason why. And so it is a reason why. Neither one of them, quite honestly, is more important than the other one. I think that they both, and as cliché as it sounds, are both equal for different reasons, right. I think that if you're a person that is solely behind a desk, and let's say you solely work on legal matters, on policy, on development of strategies, that is how you input change. That's how you impact things to a point that they're standardized, right. I can be a great leader and I can say, "You know what? As long as I'm in office, this is going to be the thing," but as soon as I'm out of office, if someone else just comes in and goes, "I don't believe in that," that's done. There's no policy there. There's nothing kind of on paper. There's no legal ramification of it. It only impacts a very small population or people at a certain time.   I think that when it comes to community development, community impact, you want something that has longevity, right. Every parent wants for their kid to not have to struggle the same way they did. I think that that should work as far as generations of constituents and community. I don't want the next you, or me, or whoever to have to fight the same fights I fought. Then what did I do for that time I was around? But I think that you want to be authentic to the place you are, and that there's a component that has to come from the community, right. Holy Cross' whole mission ... I just always say men and women for others. And then it was a shift to men, and women for and with others. And that shift is important, it's imperative, right. It's not about doing things for people, it's about doing things with people, bringing them along, having a conversation, knowing when it's time to lead and when it's time to follow.   And so I think that you got to work with the community to see what the community wants, right. Because you could have a great idea and the community could be like, "We don't care about this right now," right. "We have this other more dire thing." And so you have to know what the thing is before you can implement policy, or structure, or an infrastructure around it. But if you just have people that are, let's say, marching in the street, and fighting the man, and having ideas, but no-one flipped that switch to implement policy, well then you just have angry people, and another population of angry people who are mad that this population's angry, and they are just butting heads and not getting anything. If you just have people sitting in a room being bureaucrats, then nothing actually permeates to the community because you have no idea what the community wants. You're just doing whatever you saw online, or on TV and you think you're doing the best thing, but the two of you come together, that's how change actually happens. That's how real, positive, sustainable change happens.   So I'm a person that hates sitting behind my desk, to be honest. I'm not a fan of it. I'm a person that wants to be around people. And you have those days where you're like I've had nine meetings in a row. I haven't eaten. I've been just taking information in. But if I don't have time to go sit down and write that stuff up, and write those notes, and get it out to other departments to make things happen, or follow up with community partners because I didn't really understand something they said, but I want to do more with it, I'm missing the boat. So I know I just kind of said both, and that's not the answer you want, but I do think that both are equally important. Christian: Yeah, I kind of expect that coming from you. Ché: I mean, yeah. You know what I'm saying? Christian: Yeah. And you did mention the mission statement. Holy Cross mission statement. I feel like you have that before you even got to Holy Cross. Is that true? Ché: Oh yeah. That's the way I was raised. My mom said two things to me every day from the time that I was probably 3 or 4 going off to school, to the time that I was 18. My mother always said, "Hey, listen. Treat everyone the way you want to be treated," which is just basic. But to this day, she still, "Treat everyone the way you want to be treated, and be a leader, not a follower." To the point that when I was 10, she'd say, "Be a leader," and I'd say, "Not a follower. Leave me alone," but I think that for her there was something about making my own decision, and being able to decipher what's right from what's wrong.   And also whether I'm walking into any building, whether it's the person that's the concierge, or the person picking up trash, or the maintenance person, or the CEO of a company, you treat everybody with respect, and you show love to everyone. And I take that even beyond that, right. Whether I'm walking in City Hall and I'm talking to the mayor, or the grounds crew, or a person who might be homeless in front of City Hall, I say, "What's up?" I show love. I don't always have things to help, but I'm always going to give you respect as a human being.   And I think that that's something my mother instilled in me and then it moved on through all my schooling, and the Holy Cross sort of just drove it home a bit. But that's just the way that I was raised. Christian: So you got this mission statement Holy Cross, but then you got your own from back home: be a leader, not a follower. And so was the other one? Ché: Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. Christian: Treat everyone the way you want to be treated. I kind of struggle on that. There was one where treat everyone the way you think they should be treated. Ché: Yep. That one, I think, gets problematic. Christian: Yeah. Ché: I think no one wants me treated poorly, right? Christian: Right. Ché: So the idea is that you reciprocate that. I think treat everyone the way you think they should be treated gets into some real interesting things with some of your own biases or implicit biases or unrecognized issues you may have with some things. I think it's well-intended, but I think that it can lead to some interesting situations. Christian: And the one I never agreed with was treat everybody the same. Ché: Nope, same. I think though, whenever you talk about things like DEI, right, diversity, equity, inclusion, there's a reason that it's equity and not equality, right? There's an image people always paint of if you have three kids looking over a fence and they're different heights and you give them the same size box, that's equality. Everyone has the same stuff. That doesn't help all the kids, right? You want equity. You want the really short kid to have a taller box because then they can all see the game. And I think that in certain pockets of our communities, you're starting to see that. It needs to permeate more, but that equity is important. And that doesn't mean that you give everyone a dollar, right? The millionaire doesn't necessarily need that dollar, but that person that's struggling maybe needs $5 or $10 to make it out. And that's obviously me oversimplifying it, but I think that that's part of that being someone for and with others, you know what I mean? Christian: Yeah. Ché: It's the width to understand what the need is, and then it's the for that if you have more, you got to help out. And I don't mean to get all socialist here. That's not what I'm trying to do, but I'm being honest. Christian: Yeah, for real, bro. Ché: You know what I mean? You have to be realistic and then understanding what the needs are of people, if we're going to truly help and benefit people. Christian: Yeah. So I guess with the combination, if you have a combination with what your mother taught you and what Holy Cross taught you, have you ever came up with a mission statement that drives you to do the work you do now? Ché: The honest truth is that I have a statement that that drives me. It has a swear in it. You can figure out which word that is, that that is the one. I have two things that matter to me that drive everything I do. The first is I want to impact my community. And so that's whatever I have, right: time, talent, treasure, anything. I want to make sure that when all is said and done, whenever my last moment is here, that people said he cared and he did good by us, whatever that community can mean. And that can be my hyperlocal community, that can be my global community, whatever the case is.   The other is do cool stuff. And I think that for me, there's something special about doing projects that people think are interesting and fun. Not that there aren't things that are just that ... like making the microchip is important, and for some people that's super interesting. For the other people it's all right, whatever. But for me, I want to do stuff that people are like, "Aw man, that was awesome. That was an experience. That was a moment." Because creating moments is difficult in life and you hope to have and share a bunch with other people. So if I can combine the two and I can do things that are going to impact and change my community for the better and make sure that stuff is cool, that's what both allows me to rest but also keeps me up at night. You know what I mean? Christian: Yeah, I got you. Ché: Like thinking of how to do it, but then sleeping happy when I make it happen. Christian: Yeah, definitely feel that. What was your favorite project so far? Ché: One of them's a selfish answer, and one's not. I'm going to give you two quick ones. This year as part of the public art project POW! WOW! that I helped bring to Worcester, we were able to paint murals and do workshops and activations with youth in a public housing area of the city of Worcester. And we also painted on the abutting schools and did workshops in the abutting schools to this area. And so we got to work with a population that doesn't necessarily see academic development the same way, that doesn't feel it the same way, that may not even know it's happening, with kids that quite often feel overlooked. And I know, because I was one of those kids growing up.   And so to go over there and have these young people feel a new appreciation for the arts and feel like celebrities are coming around their neighborhood to paint, and getting tutorials from people that have worked with Dis

Do you and I act like a true Christian- So in you mind what does a Christian act like- Do you have Bible scripture to back those thoughts up- Note- I did not have a date for this sermon, approx year

My guest today is Christian Crumlish. Christian has led product and design teams in organizations ranging from startups to large tech companies. In this conversation, we delve into the relationship between digital product management and information architecture, and how we might be more empowered as users of these systems. Listen to the full conversation   Show notes Christian Crumlish (mediajunkie.com) Dungeons and Dragons Paladin Yahoo! Design in Product Slack community Richard Saul Wurman Understanding Context: Environment, Language, and Information Architecture by Andrew Hinton Pervasive Information Architecture: Designing Cross-Channel User Experiences by Andrea Resmini and Luca Rosati Reframing Information Architecture by Andrea Resmini (Editor) Information Architecture for the Web and Beyond by Louis Rosenfeld, Peter Morville, and Jorge Arango Living in Information: Responsible Design for Digital Places by Jorge Arango Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love, Second Edition by Marty Cagan Shape Up: Stop Running in Circles and Ship Work That Matters by Ryan Singer Basecamp Objectives and key results (OKRs) Measure What Matters: How Google, Bono, and the Gates Foundation Rock the World With OKRs by John Doerr Amazon Kindle Matte Scheinker Airtable Asana Tinderbox The Informed Life Episode 6: Beck Tench on Tinderbox Notion Wikis From UX to Product (Christian's video series in the UIE All You Can Learn Library) The Information Architecture Conference Web Directions Product Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the full transcript Jorge: Christian, welcome to the show. Christian: Thanks Jorge, I'm happy to be here. Jorge: So, for folks who don't know you, would you please introduce yourself? Christian: Sure. My name is Christian Crumlish. I'm a writer, product and UX leadership consultant, information architect and I guess I do other things too, but that's plenty. Jorge: I've been privy to the arc of your career over the last, I would say 15, maybe 20 years? No, 15 years. And you're one of the folks out of several that I know that have focused on product. And I was hoping that you would tell us a little bit about that aspect of your work. Christian: I'm glad it's only been 15 years, because sometimes the spans of time are starting to freak me out a little bit. But I think for me, a lot of what my title has been and what sort of roles or jobs I've done in companies and at other times as a consultant or you know, agency designer or strategist, the titles have evolved over time or changed. And in fact, when you mentioned that arc to my career, I thought like, if only you had my career had been in the shape of an arc, that would be so cool. Cause it's been more like a zigzag down or up, you know, along some rapids or something. I feel like I've shifted gears a number of times. I was talking to a D&D… A person who also had played D&D as a kid, and we were talking about the paladin-type character that you have to cross-train in like several different… You know, you have to learn, like to be a religious person and also a night and there's probably a third thing, and how it slows you down in a sense. You know, you don't do that. Like people who knew they wanted to go to med school when they were six and have stayed on that straight path their whole lives. My career has been like a path of discovery. But along the way, I've been given a lot of different titles, or I've asked for or invented titles as needed. And so, I was a content strategist back before that was almost even a thing, around 2000. And I was an information architect, and that was my title for a while. And I was a director of strategy, and I was in an interaction designer, and I was a design pattern library curator, or pattern detective, as I liked to say at the time. And along the way I started noticing that the frame of a product — that talking about what was being made a software as a product — was a fairly dominant kind of lens that was being used in the businesses I was working in. And I think I first really came to my attention at Yahoo when I was there for about three or four years. And the product organization was sort of on a par with the tech organization, the UX part of the shopper, UED as they called it, was itself really just a subdivision of the product organization, and ultimately always reported up to people with product management titles. The deep history of that at Yahoo was that they had people called “producers” early on, and in certain nineties in the web, if you made content there was often more of a television medium terminology and so producers of content. But half the people who had producer titles at Yahoo became front end developers because they'd actually been making the content, and the others evolved into the product management role. And that also took from a program management role at Microsoft. There's a lot of antecedents to this. But ultimately, the first thing I saw was that at least in these larger companies, user experience design was at the table, but they're sort of the kiddy table. And that they had these parents called product people. And so that made me think just from the desire to get close to the decision-making or to be able to make an impact, I thought, “I have to learn more about product, or why it's called product or what product management is.” Along the way, these practices have continued to evolve and in relationship to each other. I think there's a very active conversation right now, about the boundaries or the intersection between product and UX. Enough so both, I witnessed this conversation and I have it come to myself personally when I speak, or when I'm out there connecting with people. So, I actually ended up setting up a community on Slack called Design in Product, just really to have a place to discuss that. And for some people that means kind of following this career path I've been on, of going from UX design or UX management roles to product management or product leadership roles. And other people deciding they don't want to do that, or they want to come back in the other direction. And a lot of negotiation over what is the shared common ground of those roles and where are their responsibilities and their points of view quite different. My roots go back to this information architecture tribe and people who have a point of view. And you and I have been friends for a long time, but I'm also essentially a student of your writing and your thinking and that of a number of other people who've really shaped my thoughts about information architecture. I don't know if other people call it this, but I sometimes call it like “third wave” information architecture, with the first being, of course, the initial… Spacing on the TED Talks fellow… Jorge: Wurman? Christian: Yeah, sorry. You know, that's literally an architect saying, “Hey, making maps is really important,” essentially. And that maps are going to be important information as well. And that they all sort of a share a semantic and kind of wayfinding and meaning-mapping kind of frame. And so, I think he kind of coined or crystallized the concept of initially. And the second way was sort of the world-wide-web-filtered application of information architecture, and just some often very tactical or pragmatic, but even then, with sort of this big-IA kind of dream of being the overarching backbone of things. And then what I think it was the third wave, is this sort of academically kind of sound and intellectually very rich notion of information architecture as still a way of mapping meaning and, and, and crafting spaces that are information, but I think less bound to some of the literal artifacts of the seventies or the nineties. And I don't want to do short shrift to other people who thought long and hard and debated these things. You kind of need to go to the books and read Andrew's books and yours and Andreas's and a number of other people to get caught up in that conversation. But I feel, again, that that conversation has a lot to say about product. And it's not just through UX. I mean, I think information architecture is a thing UX designers need to think about and be good at and use in their work. And UX then as a way of influencing the product management or product strategy and the product practices of companies. But I think IA is also a tool in the toolkit of the product manager herself. It's not just something that they should let designers mediate for them. I think they should be firsthand users. You know, architects of information — people who think about the way the information and the meaning and the knowledge and understanding and the positioning of people's bodies and of spaces made out of information are going to play out in the product that they're building. If you were redeveloping the waterfront and putting hotels up and walkways and places for cars to drive, you know, you're thinking about how are human beings going to flow into the space? What kind of experiences are they going to have? What is it going to do to the economy? What secondary effects are going to happen? You know? And that's an architecture, traditional built architecture. And I think that when you're making software, particularly the kind of social software that I've typically been involved with… It's a metaphor, but it's not simply a metaphor. It's literally the same thing. You're going to build an environment. People are going to flow into it. They're going to have experiences. There are going to be secondary effects that you didn't anticipate and systematic ecosystem effects. And you need to do information architecture or have someone who's a really good information architect at hand, I think to get a grip on that. Or you make it sort of like primitive, you know, “We're just going to put the waste affluent in the river kind of kind of building.” You know? Without thinking about the larger picture at all. Jorge: You talked about how information architecture could inform the folks who are managing and designing products and building them. Because I'm on the IA side of things, I'm interested in the converse, which is about learning about product and learning how those roles work and how the process works. And in the past year. I've read a couple of books on this subject, and I have a specific question that I'm, I'm teeing up with saying this one is the second edition of Marty Cagan's book Inspired and the other is Shape Up by Ryan Singer from the folks at Basecamp. And one thing that struck me in reading both of those is that… And by the way, I'm not claiming that the latter uses anywhere near like the same framing as the Inspired book. Christian: Right? Almost by definition it wouldn't. Jorge: But I just bring them up because I see them as examples of what I see as advocacy for a type of approach to the work that is very much bottom up in my perspective, in that you're working within a relatively small problem space and you iterate on that. And you may be doing that in parallel to a lot of colleagues who are working in other projects of similar scope. And the question that I had in reading both of those books was, “Where within this framework is there place for looking after the coherence between those things? Right? Like especially if they're part of some kind of ecosystem or family of products. Eventually those things need to cohere at some level. Christian: So, one thing about Marty Cagan is, anybody interested in product management should be familiar with Marty Cagan and should read his books and also follow him. He teaches, he's out there still influencing people. Silicon Valley-style product management is done in his image. It's done essentially in a framework that he established. It's also important to understand that he represents kind of a reforming notion of what product management should be from an earlier, slightly more, I'd say kind of enterprise, kind of static-MBA style product management. So, he represents the school of thought of, get outside of the building, and iterating on small things. Basically, in line with the lean and the agile trends that we all have probably been around and been part of it had been grappling with how do you do UX? How did you research? How did you plan? How do you think big or system systematically when things are being done often in these small incremental bits, as you asked? A big part of the product manager's role is actually connecting those levels of meaning, or those levels, those scales. There's this almost fractal-like scale of decision-making that goes on. And one great thing to know about product management as it differs maybe from UX and UX roles or your jobs, is that it's very much a decider role. You make decisions constantly. I don't like to stereotype people or professions or anything, but having been in them, maybe I'm a little bit more allowed to speak, you know, to tease ourselves. But what UX designers like to say, “it depends.” They don't want to get things wrong. They want to figure it out correctly. They want to apply the proper techniques. They want to take time and do things well. And I think that that's an important set of values and forces to have represented in the process. I think product managers or product management does not always value all of those things as much and believes that you get diminishing returns and that being decisive sometimes with less than complete information is sometimes more important than being 100% sure about what you're deciding. And that comes from having to make decisions all the time. If you make, if you make 15 decisions in a day, you can't fool yourself into thinking that they're all 100% right and perfect. You have to know that you're going to have an error rate, and hopefully you keep it manageable and you're good over time. Just to go back to this. Those decisions can sometimes be, “Is it okay to ship this next release with a bug, with this bug? We haven't fixed it, but you know, we really want to ship. Or is this bug a showstopper and we can't release it until this particular one is fixed? What we built, does it meet the requirements adequately enough to move forward or not?” You know, those sorts of decisions that are sort of tactical, but tied into important, larger overarching questions, up to the next level is sort of, “What should be in the next sprint? What's the next thing that we should work on?” And there you're at the level I think you were asking about, where things seem to happen very iteratively and without too much regard to the bigger picture, but just kind of down in a trench trying to polish a local maxima or run some tests or ship a feature or something like that. And those decisions also have to be made. Again, they can't be theoretical. Something's in the sprint or it's not, and either the last sprint went well, or it didn't, and stuff fell into this sprint from that. What I mean, you're dealing with a tangible reality all the time, and then the buck stops with that product manager. But those decisions again should be made with reference to, well, “What are our goals this quarter or in this time period? And why are we building this feature? And how many people will be affected by this bug? Is for those people, giving them a bad experience, an acceptable price to pay towards the larger goal?” So, there's a sense in which often the product manager is the person in the room who's supposed to be looking levels and levels above the current moment to figure out a decision. In some ways you'd say the UX person is doing that in a different sense: they're going out to like what people think or what we know from our users or they enlarge the question in a different way. But I think the product manager says, “Well, the company's strategy is this. And that's informed the product strategy, which I'm familiar with. Because either I'm the head of product and I own the roadmap or I'm on a well ordered product team and the head of product has communicated the roadmap and my portion of it to me well, and I have autonomy to execute my part of the roadmap.” So, there are actually these tools and mechanisms that that ladder up and down from like the very biggest picture of the company's dreams and yearly goals and quarterly goals down to what should we ship? Now, like any of these kind of project management or information management processes, like a roadmap or a sprint planning process where you're relying on a person to kind of make all those times connections, it is vulnerable to becoming kind of just a thing on autopilot, where it's just all happening, but nobody is really saying, are we on track? What's the meaning of all of this? Does this add up to anything? And I'm not some sort of spotless paragon myself. I've found myself sometimes leading a product team, doing lots of things well and correctly, and still taking a step back at a certain point and saying, we're off track. We've gone off track, and enough of these yellow flags have now… Or funny feelings in my tummy have added up to the point that, you know, if we continue like this, we're not actually achieving our goal. And they're none of my official signals yet say that we're off track, but the fact that I did step out of the day-to-day and look at a different timescale or a larger question that we were supposed to be answering has woken me up. And there's this danger sometimes of getting too attached to these techniques and processes, but at best they do help things stay in a line. And if you have a healthy team and you're reporting up and down the line, and there's somebody with authority who is watching the biggest goals, I think there already are methods that can work, you know? But you have to assess the kind of health of that on any product team, how well they do that. I know you're more interested in the product management side than the IA side, but you could say sometimes a lack of that… That no one's written down a map. Like we talked about it, we have our OKRs, blah, blah, blah. But no one's really done that IA work of saying, “And this is what it's going to look like,” or “This is the part where we're in, this part of the map now, and we're trying to get over here.” And helping to kind of do that communication to everybody so everybody can agree on what the mission is. I think maybe that's like a lymphatic system that's missing, so that you've got a circulatory system, but somehow, it's not a healthy creature, you know? Jorge: Yeah. As you were describing this up and down reporting structure and things like goals, it made me think of another book that I read last year,  Measure What Matters, by John Doerr, which is about OKRs. And one of the things that I got from that book was that there are mechanisms to scale OKRs up and down the organization. And my sense is that the goal there is to make sure that everyone is pointing in the same direction. And I guess the concern that I have is at a different level of granularity, and you called it out; the information architecture per se. My favorite example of the lack of such a thing is Kindle. I've been using Kindle for a while to read books, so I should be familiar with it. And I use Kindle in three very different device platforms. I have a dedicated Kindle reader, I have Kindle on my iOS devices, iPad and iPhone. And I also use Kindle on my Mac, and I find things like navigation structures to be different in all three Christian: Navigation within books or between books? Jorge: More so within books. I recently upgraded to a… I had a very old Kindle device and I recently upgraded to a newer one. And the operating system has changed a lot between the two versions… Christian: You're kind of… Okay, I'm going to sort of defend imaginary product people or UX people or tech leaders in companies like this. Some of this is a big company problem. You know, like big enough that you have teams that… The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, or they have their own agendas. So, in theory, they're all the same experience. And there should be someone saying, “Hey, we have a fundamental experience and you can express it differently, but we all agree it has to XYZ in common.” There are usually efforts to do that. And when I was doing the pattern library stuff, that was a version of that kind of thing. Nowadays, design systems are a version of that kind of thing, but often they're still about the interaction and not how it all fits together or how it works. But there are natural tensions. Teams are going to say, “Yeah, but that doesn't work for my device,” or, “But I have reasons for this,” or “It's always been this way on our sub platform. You bought us and now you're trying to make us be part of you.” It's non-trivial — especially in a larger organization — to just, you know… Everything's constantly shifting. It's a system. You could gradually maybe bring it into harmony, but I think you just have to have some tolerance, therefore. The consumer has every right to expect it to be perfect. But I, know, from being inside the sausage factory, how much that can almost never happen, especially in large organizations that have probably completely different orgs making those things, and maybe not enough cross team alignment. Every big organization I've ever been in is literally either in the process of becoming a little bit more decentralized or more centralized, or it's finished doing one of those things and it's about to start doing the other one. And they never find the perfect amount of decentralization and centralization for all these different overlapping things. So, you get matrix reporting. I have my boss, but I also have my practice leader. And then one day my practice leader is my main boss and I'm embedded in a team and we're a service bureau. And it's like, none of these models are right or wrong, but they produce software like that or experiences. And this has definitely been… And I'm sorry to rant like this, but this has been like a hobbyhorse for me for a long time, particularly when I started doing mobile and cloud type stuff, which was what I was calling holistic UX. Meaning that you don't do the UX of your Kindle on the Mac and you don't do your UX of your Kindle on the Kindle and your UX of the Kindle on the iOS, on the iPad or whatever. Kindle should have a UX, you know, and Kindle should have an information architecture that is one big map. And then everything should be some articulation of that or some expression of that. And yes, there will be compromises, but they should always be the sense that… But “should” is easy to say. When I was at AOL, I think, working for a fellow named Matte Scheinker, who taught me a lot about product, I remember telling him like, “There should be information architects, like that should still be a job.” I was having that old argument, like, should that even be a job title? And I'm like, “Yeah, there's some people they should just do it.” And he's like, “Well, how many? How many do you need? How many IAs does this company need?” And I was like, “Well, at least one.” You know, and maybe it needs to be the chief IA or the one person who just sits there near the CEO or the CPO or whatever and is just making that big map on some level and communicating it. Yeah, I feel like that's lacking. But again, that sounds utopian to me. Nobody understands that they need that in some sense, or it's hard to prove that having that is going to help some team meet its quarterly goals. Jorge: I think it's pretty clear that that's what's going on. And in fairness to the Kindle teams, the individual apps in the different platforms are coherent internally. It's this… I think you put your finger on it, it's the talking between them that seems to be not happening as much. Christian: But were you pointing out… Somebody online was recently pointing out that Kindle also gives you no way to organize your library. It's just a giant list of everything you either have downloaded or ever, unless you delete things, I guess. And there's no grouping, or if there is, it's hard to use. I'm not quite sure what the story is on that. Jorge: Yeah, I remember that tweet, and I think it was around the ability to do so in the Kindle devices themselves. And the reason I remember that is, I actually posted in reply to that that I could easily see how that could be the case, because — to your point earlier about the constraints in different form factors — there was a generation of Kindle devices that didn't have keyboards, and you had to type by moving a cursor around with a four-way pointer thing, which made it really awkward. Right? So, you did not want to be editing a lot of texts, so it made a lot of sense in those to not have it. And perhaps the newer ones, which have touchscreens, don't have it either because it's an artifact from that time? I don't know. Christian: I also think sometimes you get into the difference between power users and ordinary users. So, I've worked on software where we burned a lot of cycles at times thinking about how to make the switching between your two accounts' experience better, or the managing your multiple accounts. Until somebody looked at the data and saw that only 2% of the users have even the second account, let alone multiple. So, I hate to say it, but maybe the long tail of Kindle readers don't have more than one screenful of books or whatever, and investing in a great system for organizing your huge Kindle library just isn't going to satisfy big enough fraction of their user base. Jorge: Yeah, that makes sense. Folks have got to make choices, right? And at least my experience in working as a consultant with product organizations, there's always more to be done than there are resources and time to do it. Christian: I think that goes back to like, what are the incentives? And you say, of course, Amazon doesn't have an incentive to focus on that problem. They've got so many other, you know… Or Kindle, or whatever sub-team you're talking about. But somebody out there could be making it so that ordinary people have a lens they can put in front of anything they're consuming and organize it for themselves. And that may take different forms and it could be a plugin or an add on, or it could be another app you use instead, or it can… There's a number of different ways to give people bookmarklets or things that put a little more power in their hands. And I think this is a longer-term agenda that I've always been fascinated in, which is like, “Where's the Excel for data or for information or for lists, multi-dimensional lists and nodal, you know, nodally-connected things?” There's a lot of tools out there, but there's not sort of like this universal structure that people start to learn as a literacy thing. So, I feel like people are overwhelmed by their information as soon as it becomes more than one list, or have has to be managed dynamically, or anything like that. I actually would say, to be honest, I think something like Airtable is the closest I've seen, not to endorse a product specifically, but when I've used that, I've thought this is giving people who aren't database architects the ability to create structured data with relationships in a very copacetic way. And so, I'm hopeful about that. But you know, to just kind of go off a little bit more on a tangent, I've had this side project, hobby horse of mine that I returned to whenever I get some free time, which fits that model of sort of ideally being something that you could put in front of any other list or any other, you know, like a to-do list or a project list or something like that, which I call “One Job.” My shorthand for it is one job, like “you had one job.” But the log line of it, and you can see this'll date to when I first had the idea, originally, I would describe it to people as “Tinder for tasks.” You know, basically meaning that even… Personally, like I'll use Asana, I've used it as a project management tool in jobs, but I've used it for my own personal to dos kind of convenience. It's a nice kind of just sortable list, but with recurring things. But I still find psychologically that looking at any large group of things — and this could be the backlog for the product that I'm planning the next sprint for or the accumulated ideas that have piled up in my road mapping tool, or my personal list of just, you know, household tasks I want to do — that it's kind of anxiety-provoking to see anything you ever thought of and anything you might consider doing or, or might get to if you get to it. You know, if you do 10 things, do they, here's the 11th thing. Like, that's a lot to have on your screen in front of your face and trying to get your attention. And so, the original idea for this One Job thing was just that you have a stack. You know, essentially you can only see one thing and either that thing is the most important thing on your list, so just do it or, you know, swipe it away, put it to the bottom of the stack and look at the next thing. But eventually you should hit a thing where you're like, “Oh, I can call mom. I could do that now.” Or, “No, I don't feel like calling mom.” You know, whatever it is. And if you get all the way to the bottom of the list and you're back at the top, then you've got to start doing your psychological work. But more generally, I feel like, how can we be empowering end users rather than leaving it in the hands of the businesses to always give the information the exact way everybody wants it. You know, like, I think this has gone back and forth in the browser world. You know, in the early days it was like controlling your own layout and look, I want this type face, I want this backdrop. And eventually that kind of didn't work as it would break the magazine design of the website, you know? So that kind of fell by the wayside. But I think you get that more with people maybe wanting to have more control over their privacy or how their data is going to be used, and there's a market maybe to give people the tools that come between them and the mess kind of product and help them manage the relationship with it better. Jorge: Yeah, I agree. There is a gap in the market. You've already pointed to Airtable, that's one that immediately came to mind as a possibility. Another one is perhaps Tinderbox, which we've highlighted in a previous episode of the show. Christian: I've tried to use that, and I think for me… I have sort of like a law of personal information management systems or whatever, which is that you have to go all in. And no matter how good or bad the system is, they only work if you go all in. And if you partially commit, and continue to partially use other systems at the same time, then you don't get any of the relief that it's all in one place, and that you can stop worrying about it, and you'll have more and more and more systems to track and manage. Jorge: Another product that that came to mind, I don't know if you've had a chance to play with it, is Notion. Christian: Oh, you know, I've been reading about it a lot lately, and I've seen people promoting it, but I'm not quite familiar with how it works. Jorge: My sense is that — and I have not used it extensively, I've kind of played around with it — but from the videos and tutorials that I've read, it strikes me that it that Notion is to something like your notepad as Airtable is to Excel. Where in Airtable and Excel the primary information objects that you're dealing with are some kind of a table-based structure, Notion is much more freeform and more text-centric. But the principle seems to be fairly similar, where you enter information and allow the structure to emerge as you gather more of it and start tagging it on the fly. So, it's intriguing. I do think that there are gaps in the market for such tools. Christian: Yeah. I see it kind of plays into the wiki paradigm too. I used to use a personal wiki, and for a long time, that was another great, infinitely malleable, networked thing. But again, I think these things work if you just commit to using them there's an expression in 12-step programs that is, it works if you work it. You know, physically like if you go all in and embrace the system, you can make almost any system work for yourself. Jorge: That seems like a really good place on which to wrap our conversation. And I feel like we have much more to talk about, and perhaps we will at another occasion. But for now, Christian, where can folks follow up with you? Christian: Well, you can always check out my personal website, which is mediajunkie.com. And if you're near Richmond, Virginia in February, I'm doing a workshop there, but this may not be out by then. I've got a series of videos coming out with UIE, with Jared Spool's website, in their all-you-can-learn library on product management for UX designers. So, people who are coming from a UX design background and want to understand product management better, may want to consider making career in product management or kind of a hybrid product design career, might find some value in those videos. I hope they do. If you have a chance to make it to the IA Conference in New Orleans, which is in April, I'll be giving the closing plenary there. So, some of the things you and I have been talking about, and probably a couple of other things reflecting on social software, mental health, vulnerable populations, things like that, that relate to my recent work. I'll be talking about those things as well. And if you're in Australia, I'll be in Melbourne in late June, early July at a Web Directions Product, giving a keynote there. So that's probably a lot of ways to find me in the near future. Jorge: Well, fantastic. I'll be in New Orleans at the IA Conference, so I look forward to seeing you and hearing your presentation. Christian: Great. Can't wait to see it then. Jorge: Thank you for being on the show. Christian: You bet. Take care. Thanks for having me.

"My mind races back to some of my experiences in the prisons meeting inmates and guys and women who have literally been completely transformed by giving their life to Christ. I remember one that I didn't meet but it was an interview actually on Larry King Live and it was an interview of an inmate in Texas named Karla Faye Tucker. " Family Discussions: What is Jesus saying to you when he says that new wine needs to be put in new wineskins? Why is it all too easy to put new wine into an old wine skin and to continue to live like a non-Christian when you call yourself a Christian? How does living in the flesh living coronally living in the world like everyone else? How does it damage the cause of Christ when you and I do call ourselves a Christian? Transcription: 00:23          Hey, I can't wait to share this devotional passage with you today. This one is phenomenal and I know you're going to be able to relate to it like I do. We're in Mark chapter two at this great book in the greatest book of all time. The most historically accurate. The most scientifically accurate. Archeology has proved the Bible over and over again. Prophecy proves the Bible is undoubtedly, undoubtedly the Word of God. And in Mark chapter two, verse 21 and 22, Jesus makes this amazing statement. He says, "No one sows a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise the patch pulls away from it. The new from the old and a worse tear results. In the same way, no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise the wine will burst the skins and the wine is lost and the skins as well. But one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."   01:22          You know what? 2 Corinthians 5:17 is a similar verse. It says, "If anyone is in Christ, he or she is a brand new creation. Old things are passed away. Behold, new things have come." I was just talking to a high school friend of mine the other day and you know what, three months ago this friend was trying to commit suicide. But I had the privilege and the joy of leading this friend to Christ and man, you talk about a change. One of the most joyful, happiest young men I've ever met in my life. Making straight A's in school, reconciling relationships with his mom and dad, and example to all of his friends. I mean, when he accepted Christ into his heart, it didn't make him a better person. It made him a brand new person.   02:09          My mind races back to some of my experiences in the prisons meeting inmates and guys and women who have literally been completely transformed by giving their life to Christ. I remember one that I didn't meet but it was an interview actually on Larry King Live and it was an interview of an inmate in Texas named Karla Faye Tucker. And this beautiful young woman was about to go to, I suppose, the electric chair because of a previous murder. When this woman years before had been in on a drug deal and she was heavily under the influence of drugs and in her craziness under drugs, she had been accomplished to a terrible, terrible crime and she was going to receive the death penalty for that. But on that day, on that interview with Larry King, it was the greatest witness for Christ on television. Honestly, I've ever seen in my life.   03:08          That woman was so transformed by the spirit of Christ and you could see that he literally was living inside of her heart. And I don't know what Larry King did after that interview, but I will tell you, I could see in that man that he was moved like he never been before, as was the rest of America who saw that woman who had been completely transformed by her relationship with Christ. You know, becoming a Christian is not simply raising your hand in church, walking down an aisle, getting baptized or going to church. Although those are good things and they're all signs of a changed heart. But becoming a Christian is new wine in a new wine skin. Everything changes. When the people see you, they see Jesus in you. You love him. You live for him. You would die for him. And you would be able to say confidently, as Paul said, toward the end of his life, he said, for me to live is Christ. And to die is gain. Becoming a Christian is metamorphosis. It's a Caterpillar becoming a butterfly.   04:17          And here's the questions for today. What is Jesus saying to you when he says that new wine needs to be put in new wineskins? What does that metaphor about? The second question today is this. Why is it all too easy to put new wine into an old wine skin and to continue to live like a non-Christian when you call yourself a Christian? And the third question is this. How does living in the flesh living coronally living in the world like everyone else? How does it damage the cause of Christ when you and I do call ourselves a Christian? So, here's a thought for the day. The acid test of true Christianity is how you treat the members of your family.

How important is character in the life of a Christian? So important that from the moment of conversion to the moment of us entering into the fullness of God’s presence after death the Holy Spirit has our character formation deeply embedded within everything He is doing in our lives. We have many seasons and transitions we all face in life, but no matter where we are or what we are doing, our character development is part of the journey. Tune in if you want to learn more about what the Bible teaches about our character and how we can apply this to our own lives! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/michael-carroll/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/michael-carroll/support

We're nearing the end of our Ten Commandments series! This episode tackles lying—or as the Ten Commandments are commonly translated, "bearing false witness." First, though, Peter talks a bit about his entry in the World Anvil worldbuilding contest; we discuss Krissi's Innocents game and how it wrapped up, as well as Vampire and the various other games we have in the works; Grant's attempt to stream game design; and the extremely lovely GRIS. Aaron Arnold asks an extremely difficult Patreon question this week: What was the hardest lesson to learn as a Christian? So you also get to hear us puzzle through that! After our Scripture, we discuss the Ninth Commandment, "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Unlike many of these other commandments episodes, in this one we had a very easy time talking about the theology of speaking truths rather than lies, but a much harder time getting into the detailed uses of lies in roleplaying games—simply because it's such a big topic. We touch on the differences between lies and creativity; lies of malice and cowardice (and we get to use a different C. S. Lewis quote in this one!); several forms false witness takes that are harder to recognize than outright lies; prooftexting; logical fallacies; and much more. Enjoy! Mentioned in this episode: J. Ellsworth Kalas's The Ten Commandments from the Back Side; Wondermark #1062, "The Terrible Sea Lion"; YourLogicalFallacyIs.com Scripture: Exodus 20:16, Genesis 3:1-5, Matthew 7:1-5, Colossians 3:8-10

Download this Episode On today's episode, we talk about the shiny object, ways to build your business and modern marketing. Please leave us a review and subscribe for more! reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 24:20 RTRE 64 – Get Off My Lawn: A Guide to Modern Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. Chris here with Christian and Nate. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas. [Nathan]: What's up? Another week since last week. And I don't know. You know, the usual grind here. It's… [Christian]: You seem excited to be alive. [Chris]: ow's your CRM coming Nate? [laugter] [Nathan]: It's gonna get done after I get back from Key West next week. So… [Christian]: Let me know. I will walk you through it.  [Chris]: Man. [Nathan]: Work hard play hard boys. Work hard play hard. [Chris]: Must be good to be a real estate agent.  [Nathan]: I guess so. [Christian]: It is good to be an agent.  [Nathan]: I like it. What are we talking about today? [Chris]: Well we were just talking about [censored] marketing in real estate and how not to do it. You were just showing us a sign of a real estate agent that put his sign out in the middle of the Utah backcountry. On a…what was that Nate? [Nathan]: I mean literally it's in bum [censored] Egypt. I mean it was out…I mean literally it's a like a 16 mile hike. Like I mean maybe it's genius because here I am talking about it. Right. I don't know. [Chris]: Good marketing. [Nathan]: You know, I mean I don't know. But literally like it's like who's gonna see this, you know. Like you spent a…I mean what's an average sign cost? Hundred bucks? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: What's that? [Chris]: 47. [Nathan]: You use the cheap one.  [Christian]: Depends on how many you buy at a time. [Chris]: That's a temporary sign with the thing in the middle. [Nathan]: OK well either way I feel like this guy throw away 47 dollars. Because I doubt he'll ever go back to get it. But, you know, bad marking. You know, Christian was asking me do I do marketing. No. I mean yes and no. I think we've talked a little bit about that. That Ohio running realtor Instagram is of course my marketing. Even though it has nothing to do with Realty. [Christian]: Your Donut Saturday with your son. That's marketing. [Nathan]: It is but it had…I mean that was actually started before I became an agent. So I'll be at…a ton of people identify me through the donut Saturday. But I don't…I don't…I don't mail stuff out. I don't, you know, I'm not out blasting stuff on social media. I really hate most of that stuff. I think there's…there's more organic ways to do it. and I generally find that there's more bad examples than good examples. [Christian]: Yeah so you're saying that there are different ways to do marketing? [Nathan]: Yes but…let's go…there's…there's many different ways to do marketing. The question is can you do it well? And my answer would be no. Most agents do not do it well. [Christian]: So there's plenty of examples of bad marketing. How do you…how do you not do bad marketing and do good marketing? What is that? What does that mean? What are those standards? [Nathan]: Well I think…OK so I, you know, how do you not do bad marketing? OK well that'd be like saying all right, it's same reason I don't take pictures. Right. I'm not a [censored] photographer. And I'm not in marketing either.  If you have a marketing background, maybe I get it. But most of the stuff I see agents do is poor. It's poor video. It's poor pictures. They're there…I don't know what even the terminology is when they create their own business cards. It's just horrible. Like there's a reason there are people they get paid in marketing. And you should go pay them to do it. I mean you get a better result. I'd rather be really… [Christian]: Do you? Do you Nate? [Nathan]: Yeah I think so absolutely.  [Chris]: So please do not go buy the printable like perforated business cards and then use your word art. And print them. [laughter] [Nathan]: Yeah word art. Yeah right. Well you see a lot of that. You see really bad names of real estate teams. And, you know, it's just like oh man it's so tacky. I mean there's…I guess there's a place for them because they're still doing business. But… [Christian]: Well…well I'll back this up a little bit. I don't know if you wanna scratch this or not. So, you know, we've got a bit… [Chris]: No this is all good.  [Nathan]: I know you've been picking at soething.  [Chris]: This is alright.  [Christian]: So so far we've kind of [censored] around about bad marketing which is very subjective. Because… [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler. [Christian]: What's that? [Chris]: Welcome to the water cooler.  [Christian]: Right, you know, like I myself when it comes to marketing try to put myself at the consumers shoes. And say “OK what's, you know, what…what's the objective of the marketing and am I accomplishing that?” You know, and so I think there's unfortunately most…at least in my experience, most, you know, brokerages and agents. You know, there's kind of the standard of like “Yeah well you do a farm, you know, and you just solds and just listed postcards and you have, you know, your face on your business card and, you know, just kind of all this really low bar like everyone does it. Everyone's told to do it.”  And people who aren't agents don't pay any attention to it. They don't care. You know, it doesn't bring them any value. It goes right in the recycling. You know, you direct me on stuff. And so that brings a question about what is…what is good marketing. Yeah I know what caught my attention as a new agent when I saw social media stuff that stood out or community events or, you know, things that I thought were interesting and unique in this space.  And I think that's kind of the key. Is like is it different? Is it gonna catch people's attention in an industry of white noise? Or, you know…And so I think a lot of that there's not just like hey you do this one thing and that's good marketing. I think in this world of noise, you have to have many touch points. It has to be consistent. It has to be driven towards a specific end result. You know, whether that's someone saving up for email or a meeting or liking your page or following you. You know, like it all has to be designed in a consistent way to…to push people towards a certain desired objective. And most people don't approach marketing in that way. There's kind of like half hazard-ly throw stuff out there without a desired intention in mind.  [Chris]: It's a weak thought Christian. Among real estate agents. [Christian]:  What's that? [Chris]: To think about how the consumer is gonna like the content and the message. [Christian]: Yeah.  [Chris]: You know, it's…I'm not a marketer. By all means like that's not my forte. I can train a real estate agent to sell and have a successful business. I could teach them some of the techniques that they should think about when they're finding how to market themselves. But by all means I am NOT a marketer. Like I'm not gonna create a campaign. I am NOT gonna run all that stuff. I'll leave that to other people who are more creative than I am and just let them do their thing. [Christian]: But it certainly had that desired effect to you once. And you could send that to a marketer. [Chris]: I…I know what we need to accomplish. And so here in Georgia, we…we actually do recruit new agents at my firm. So we have…we get all of the information for the people who pass and we send out collateral. We send out like we send out really nice marketing pieces to them. And so my wife recently got her real estate license to help out in the office because she's a part owner in the company. So some of the things that she's doing, she needs a license now. So she got her license and just for the hell of it we decided “OK we're gonna see what other brokerages are sending out.” And it ranges. Some of them send out, you know, one eight-and-a-half by 11 piece of paper that's a letter. Some of them send out postcards. Some of them send out…there's one KW office. They send out like this worksheet. Right. And it's got this three boxes or three columns and a bunch of rows. And each row it's like “Check about if this broker offers this.” It's like a broker checklist. Interview other brokers and see if they have everything we have. [Christian]: Like a comparison sheet. [Chris]: Yes. Yes that's exactly what it is. And that was probably the most creative. There was a Coldwell Banker office, it sent three po…three postcards from the exact same broker. Brokers face on it. And then it has like no message. Right like the postcard says like “Be bold.” Or like “Be strong.” Like on one. And it's like you've got two or three words taking up the entirety of this like six by nine postcard. And it doesn't say anything of value at all. It's just like motivational [censored]. So then like we look at what we're sending out. And we're sending out this like…we're sending out two mailings, in depth packet of everything that the company offers on this. Like premium glossy photo. And I'm like “You know what? This is why people call us off of this stuff. It's because these other brokers that are in our market doing this, it's garbage.” You got to…you got to focus on what the consumer is gonna want. I'm glad you do that. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think to, you know, the key in on what you said, you know, it's a little cliche these days or whatever. But talking about bringing value. Right. Like you've got to resonate with whoever you're trying to get in front of with something that…that they're going to, well, resonate with. You know, there's gonna be a value that they use. That…that catchphrase. And so it's typically not going to be “Hey I just sold this house or I closed in five days.” They don't give a [censored]. They don't know what that means. Like, you know, but if you are like, you know, you're specializing in a certain community. And, you know, you're sending out something who says “Hey have you checked out this new pizza joint that they just opened? Here's the interview with the owner.” You know, like that doesn't have anything to do the real estate. But you're getting your name and message out there. In alignment with “Hey this person is actually invested in the community. Actually supporting that business of actually providing something to the people that would frequent that business, who might find that interesting.” As an example of, you know, a community aligned marketing strategy that's, you know, one touch piece amongst many.  You know, whether that's, you know, if you're gonna do a farm have that be consistent. And there's technology you can utilize to do, you know, retargeting Facebook or Google Ads that, you know, have that consistent message to those same people you're mailing. If they, you know…you know that kind of thing. But that takes planning. That takes technical expertise. And I think that's a far cry from, you know, Nate was saying “Hey I'm not a marketer. Hire that [censored] out.” And I agree with. That but there's so a lot of low bar marketing stuff out there, that's like…My last brokerage, you know, they've had like a social media company come in who basically said “Hey, you know what Facebook is? We'll take care of that for you. And what they meant by that is “If you sign up with us, we're gonna send out this exact same [censored] generic posting…” [Chris]: That you would. [Christian]: Yeah right. And like, you know, I'd be falling for some this people. And you'd see the exact same posting on six different agents sites in the same company, because they're just sending out the same generic [censored]. I'm like that does more to harm you and your reputation that does to like not send anything out at all. [Chris]: Definitely. One of the major things that I learned when…when we started doing SEO on our website, is that for any third party, like if you really want to get your money's worth, you have to hire in-house. Like if you're not hiring in-house, you're just going out and hiring a firm, unless they are a premium level firm where you have a dedicated account manager that is spending X number of hours on your account every month…you're just not gonna get your money's worth. [Christian]: Right and it's not gonna be cheap. [Chris]: Hire in-house.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Where you have to monitor it in-house and then outsource the work itself. But to just go out and say “Here take care of it.” That's…that's like, you know, you're eating in a den of snakes.  [Christian]: Right. Well and if you're gonna hire that out, if you're an agent you're like “Hey marketing is not my forte. I'm gonna hire it out.” you better make sure that wherever you hire is asking you questions. To make sure that that content is, you know, in your voice. It's, you know, it's not gonna be, you know, if someone who's following X agent knows you personally, and they see something coming out, they're like “That doesn't sound like them. They wouldn't send something out like that.” Like now you've got a authenticity issue. And, you know, you're going to be doing more damage. I mean especially as you we're seeing, you know, the demographic shift and the impact of social media. What people care about is…is authenticity, being genuine. If they catch wind of “Oh you just hiring out some generic someone, someone, some bot or some company is running your social media…yeah unfriend. Not interested. I'm not going to work with them because, you know, they can't even bother to post real stuff from themselves.” [Chris]: If you're looking to hire an ad agency, you're gonna be on retainer for a minimum of 5k a month. And that does not include your ad spend. Like if you want a good ad agency, if…if you're just looking to hire, you know, a marketing consultant who's gonna charge you, you know, 150 dollars a month, for this number of posts on social media, it…it's…you might as well light your money on fire. It's not going to do anything for you. [Christian]: Well there's different…I mean they're just from models, you know. I mean I'm a very DIY person. But I also know that me, I'm not a professional marketer. Like I know, you know, kind of the strategy aspect of it and…but, you know, I've hired like a local marketer. Who would sit down with me and flush out, you know “OK this is what you have going on. How to be aware where are your missing pieces. And not leverage things where they're not connected.” That kind of stuff and kind of map it out for me. And then I go execute it. Now if you can hire someone to execute it's, that is gonna be a lot more expensive. Because that's very times, you know, intensive.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean and that's gonna be the difference. Like you can…you can bring in a consultant, for almost anything. But then you have to do the work. And the consultant is not gonna come up with the whole idea for you. They're gonna help you work through it. So but if you want…but if you're…My point is, you know, if you're hiring, you know, the hundred and fifty hundred and ninety nine dollar marketing company online, that's a subscription, versus you really want advertising, it's a difference.  Like you've got that retainer every single month. And you've got to hit that spend limit with them. And that does not include your ads. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: They'll go through and they'll do everything from your direct mail pieces, to video creation, to all of it. [Christian]: Right. And that's gonna be an actual marketing campaign with multiple platforms and tiers. Not just “Hey we're sending out social media posts on your Facebook.” It's entirely different. And I mean it's some agents who don't, you know, see the benefit of that. Or like “I don't have time for that” you know, like Nate. I mean he stays busy enough and successful enough to not need that. But…but I mean the stuff he does organically is still marketing. It's just not your typical overt cheesy agent stuff. Which I think speaks…it's a lot more powerful than if you did the traditional “Just sold, just listed, hey look at me, I'm in an open house.” You know, and everything's just overtly real estate. Which it doesn't resonate with the majority of people, the majority of the time. [Nathan]: No and, you know, I think you actually…what's you're gonna see and unbeknownst to you guys, but you're gonna see me doing a little more marketing here in the future. But yeah well I have the luxury though of…Our company just brought on a marketing director that has a very strong marketing background. So we will have an in-house marketing department that… [Christian]: Nice. [Nathan]: Make, you know, will be able to take on what visions I have. Or I don't want to say visions. I call them thoughts. Yeah I mean I had a meeting with her last week. She's awesome and I…I equate what she can do to what like my tattoo guy does. Right. I come up with this wild little sketch on a piece of paper that looks like a third-grader did it. I say “Hey here.” And then a week later he hands it back and I'm like “I don't know how you got that, but it's perfect.” You know… [Christian]: Sure. They will take your vision and make it into something. [Nathan]: And make it into something and Karen will be able to do that for it. Some…a lot of brokerages I don't think have, you know, that good fortune of having a marketing director that has a very solid background with a large company that can create some of these things we want. Within the vision that you need to do. I think it's important that whatever your theme is, you have consistency with it. And a lot of people don't do that. I think a lot of real estate and what you do is marketing. Right. So if you're gonna do it, do it well. [Christian]: Sure. Well I think a lot of agents don't realize it like what they're putting out there, you know, is represent themselves. You know, because I mean you can have your marketing and your advertising. Typically people use them interchangeably. But they're not, you know. Like for us, you know, we just, you know, ponied…pointed up. And…and hired Max the designs to…to do our marketing piece, you know, pieces. Which is essentially a design firm, you know, small design team down Los Angeles that walks you through a creation process of like everything, from color scheme to…to fonts to like what's the feel, you know, your brokerage has. And all those kind of stuff to make stuff that's customized for you. All the pieces are consistent. Totally customized to provide a platform. All your agents can log in and create their own stuff. Customize it, you know, download it.  Like all that is like the bare minimum marketing pieces that you can then use for presentations or social media stuff. Or…or whatever. But, you know, something like that gives you a consistency for your agents, for your firm. But then on top of that you've got the actual “OK I'm gonna run a marketing campaign and that requires, you know, some intentional thought behind. What's my desire goal? What messages are gonna resonate with whom? What platforms win?” You know, much more complex than just aesthetic marketing piece.  You're muted.  [Nathan]: Everybody got quiet. So… [Chris]: No one's muted. We just were talking…[laughter]. All right. Well I think that is definitely you now… [Christian]: Helpful. Hopefully it's interesting. Oh boy this is the funny part.  [Nathan]: Anyway.  [Chris]: No I mean it's…it's great. We…we haven't put anything in place like that for our firm right now. Even though we have a…our listing coordinator has a marketing background. She's actually in portfolio school right now. So to kind of an extent we can…we have that ability. She'll bounce some ideas off of us. We'll bounce ideas off of her. Actually just to make sure we're not doing anything stupid.  But for everything with us, it's a lot of…it's word-of-mouth. And I think that that's another type of marketing that people don't pay enough attention to. Going back a few years to when Scott Stratten [phonetics] talked about on marketing. At Inman he said, you know “If you want word of mouth, what do you do? You do something worth talking about.” So there…there's that whole aspect to marketing our businesses. Doing things like Ritz Carlton. Doing things like Disney. Doing things…taking so much advanced precaution with our clients, thinking about their problems before they ever have it. That that way the client has no other alternative but to say how great their experience was. And I think that that's something that, you know, we need to figure out or put more focus on also, because that stuff's free. [Christian]: Yeah well and that's what, you know, for all that you're leveraging the client experience. Right. It's how you do your business, you know. All the marketing advertising is how you build up from, you know, getting in front of people to get them to that place where they're your client. And then that experience comes in and the referral business can happen. It's all part of a, you know, a long cycle of business. Hopefully. [Chris]: Absolutely. So I think that's good. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Any final thoughts while you're at it? [Christian]: I would say as an agent, know your strengths, know your weaknesses. Don't try to do everything. Hire out the stuff that you're not an expert in. In this case marketing. But, you know, you got to find…you got to find someone that can draw out what that vision is. So that it's consistent. Enhances your brand as opposed to completely contradicts your…consistency. [laughter] Words. [Chris]: Nate any final thoughts? [Nathan]: No. Stay off Facebook. Don't request me. [laughter]. Get off my lawn you kids. Seriously I was like…all of that stuff that everybody else does, don't [censored] do it.  [Christian]: There's that. [Nathan]: I don't want to be your friend because you're not gonna sell me a house. All right. All right. Guys good luck and hope it works out for you. [Chris]: Yeah. All right so basically there's different types of marketing. Figure out what you want. Avoid the shiny object. Don't think that you're gonna find something that is going to solve all of your problems for one low monthly subscription. And then don't leave out the word of mouth. Make sure you're doing the things for your clients in your daily business. Make sure that your clients are your number one focus. Because guess what? Costs a whole lot less to keep a client than it does to acquire a new one. Everybody this has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next Monday. [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode Video marketing is a common discussion among real estate agents right now. Today we discuss some of the things to avoid during when video marketing listings in real estate. reThink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 23:49 RTRE 62 – Video Marketing in Real Estate [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I'm Chris here with Christian and Nate. And today we're talking about…Nate what are we talking about?  [Nathan]: What are we talking about? Listing videos and… [Chris]: Listing videos. We're talking about listing videos today.  [Nathan]: We're gonna be talking about listing videos. What's great about this episode, I think is, I'm not gonna be talking a lot, because I don't do listing videos. So that's…that's great. But Mr. Harris here is…is really…God he…what's the proper…he got a wild hair posses on this one. It was brought up I guess. [laughter] [Christian]: Oh boy.  [Nathan]: He has got has got some strong opinions people. About these listing videos and so I mean… I guess I have opinions. It's you don't need to do them. But I guess if you're gonna do them we're gonna let Christian talk about what you should do and shouldn't do. As we always talk about I guess on our podcast. I'm actually intrigued to hear what he's got to say. Because maybe I'll learn something since it's not something I ever venture into. So Christian you want to talk about listing videos and…and how they're done. Right. or how they're done wrong? Or maybe it's about content but you got some strong opinions. But what got this wild hair up, you know, to be so “eick” about it? [laughter] [Christian]: I don't know how much of a wild hair. But, I mean, Nate so what do you do to market your listings? Because that's when I say listing videos, I'm using it as a general term the agents use to market their listings. [Christian]: Well I tell all my clients up front too that if somebody comes in here and tells you they're gonna market their home, well I'm gonna tell them “Dude that's a [censored] word generally.” In our market, again we talked about this in the last two episodes, when I say our market here. You know what you have to do for marketing in Columbus? Put in MLS. It hits Trulia, Zillow, Redfin, boom boom boom boom boom. Right. great pictures I think are a giant, enormous and key. I don't see the need for video and unless it's depending on the caliber of the home. Right. I could…could do it. And then I'll segue. I think a lot of it depends on what you're also charging the client. Right. But…marketing…you put it in…put it in MLS.. Right. now that's about all you need to do. I mean… [Christian]: OK so let me let me ask you so what…so if you believe that all agents marketing is automatic, what value are you bringing your clients? What do you actually do for your clients that other agents don't do? [Nathan]: Boom. I'm better at negotiating then I think about 90% of the people out there. I guide them through the process of preparation getting their home prepared to put it on the market. What may need to be done or not need to be done to that home. Right.  [Christian]: So how's that presented if you're not doing a marketing? And you're doing photos. Right. But everybody does photos. [Nathan]: But yeah everybody does photos. But again everybody does photos, b ut there's a difference in the quality of photos. Right. you got plenty of agents to walk in with their own camera or their iPhone and take photos, yeah. Right.  [Chris]: Stay away from the Galaxy you all. Just… [Nathan]: Yeah right. Or you have an agency and a professional photographer to photograph a home. Right.  [Chris]: Which standard should be standard.  [Nathan]: Should be but I would… [Christian]: They can't…[crosstalk] [Nathan]: 50% of agents in the Columbus market do not use professional photography.  [Chris]: And Christian yes a photographer should be standard even on a vacant house. [Christian]: Oh no it should be. That was a little throwback to our last episode about the value of staging, you know. Yep professional photos help a house.  [Chris]: Photographer yes. Stager maybe not. [Christian]: Right. [Nathan]: And again I think it depends. Now what I do, I offer three options when I go on a listing presentation. You have a four percent of five percent and a six percent. Right. And they all vary with what you get for that amount of commission. Some people don't want to spend six percent. Most people go towards a five. But… [Christian]: So you give them options? [Nathan]: I give them options yes. And a lot of people like… [Chris]: It's a menu. [Nathan]: Yeah it's a menu. Right. It's no more. But I personally don't believe video sells a house. Why? Didn't [censored] sell a house 10 years ago. Why? Because they weren't doing it. And things sold just fine. So… [Christian]: Well I mean that's…I mean it's a, you know, you know, you don't want to get into that topic because there wasn't an internet ten years ago. And things have changed so… [Nathan]: Right. So… [Christian]: You know what that last brokerage said? “This is that we've done for 40 years, I'm not going to change it now.” [Nathan]: Famous last words. [Christian]: I don't think that's what you're saying. I hope not.  [Nathan]: No. But like so you say, well “What do you provide?” Well I also offer…I hate the word [censored] “discounted” but I will list your home and provide what generally is the same as any other agent, I just do it as a better rate. So but go back to your videos. [Christian]: OK OK. I wasn't…that was intended as a joke. As just kind of… [Nathan]: No it's OK.  [Christian]: I wanted to hear what you thought was the value you provide.  [Nathan]: Here is the other thing I provide. I provide them [censored] honesty because most real estate agents are [censored] liars. They won't tell the truth. They'll say anything to get the [censored] listing. I don't know if I talked about it. Let me rant on this one. I just went, did a listing presentation, like three weeks ago. I don't think I've talked about this. Right.Bbut the client walked me upstairs and I walked in the room and I went “Oh my God that [censored] wallpaper has got to go.” [Christian]: Yep you mentioned that in the... [Nathan]: Right. [Chris]: Yeah that's a good one.  [Nathan]: Right. So yes she laughed. Right. And I said what's so funny Jenny? She says “All the other agents came in here, just told me the room look beautiful. You're the first one to tell me it's ugly and I know it's ugly.” Most people just don't tell the truth. [Chris]: Was that the dentist? [Nathan]: Yes. [Chris]: Yeah I remember that one.  [Nathan]: What? What…what do you get? Right. You get pure honesty. You don't like it? Than don't [censored] hire me. Enough about that. [laughter] Let's go back to…we were talking about videos. How do we get back to videos? This all started with videos. [Chris]: Back to listing videos. [Christian]: Right.  [Chris]: Bring it in.  [Christian]: We've believed at this point a little bit. Nat's value is not in the marketing. And I'd say most agents' value is in the market, because honestly it is pretty automatic, it's pretty syndicated these days. And it's something, you know, I tell my…my clients too. It's like “Listen this is what an agent is gonna tell you. This is [censored]. This is, you know, this is…this is how it works.” I think my axe to grind when it comes to listing videos is that what most agents call listening videos are glorified slideshows. Stop calling it virtual tour or a listing video. [Chris]: Yeah we're…we're gonna give you a virtual tour. [Christian]: A moving-picture is not a video with some you know, generic music over. That's, you know, pet peeve of mine. I don't know why people still pay for that, you know, because I'll look on the MLS we have that virtual tour link. Right. Half the time I click on it some, you know, [censored] tour factory slideshow, with some crappy music go over. I'm like “What the [censored] is this?  [Chris]: Like yeah for us its property panorama but it's the same thing. Takes all your listing videos, automatically adds the background music and there you go. I've turned mine off in the MLS. [Christian]: Yeah so that bugs me. So to me I think when it comes to marketing there's two main things you can…you can do. And maybe three. I mean you could do a dedicated, you know, listing website. Which I think could be helpful, especially if you're seller is gonna share it, you know, as opposed to sharing like the MLS link or something, which looks, at least for us, looks archaic and cheesy. So having a dedicated landing page can be a helpful tool. Something like Kingston Lane. Really cheap. They do a good job. Or doing like a Matter Ports [phonetics] for 3d tour. I still think that is really powerful as a way for people to do a walk-through without actually being there. So they get a good feel for the house which you… [Chris]: Matter Ports is good. [Christian]: Yeah so we use that on all our listings. If you're gonna do video, I think you can either detract or enhance the house, to pay on how well it's done. So I say for most agents is probably not what you want to do. One, it tends to be expensive if you do it right, because you're gonna hire it out. If you do it yourself…you…you better be pretty damn good, you know. The reason I go with Matter Ports instead of videos, is because it allows the end user to control the experience. They get…it goes as fast as they want. They get to look at what they want. They're not stuck with “Oh it's a 30 second video and I didn't get to see what I wanted in the house.” Or “It's a 5 minute or 10 minute video and oh my God why is there five minutes of drone footage outside, before you get inside the house. I'm done.” They click off. So the problem with video is that nowadays people want it quick. They want to see what they want to see. And so it can really shoot you in the foot if you're not…if it's not done well and it's not done timely, it doesn't have a specific point. But I do still think there's definitely room for it. And…and there's some great people out there doing some…some really cool stuff.  Like I don't know if you guys saw the listing video for Ryan Lewis's house out here in Seattle. It's, you know, thirty million dollars or some crazy mansion. And they basically hired a influencer to do a twenty minutes basically like a roast of his house, under the guise of he's breaking and entering into Ryan Lewis's house. It is as they're making fun of it the whole…whole time through. And it's hilarious. It doesn't really good job to showcase the house. In like a normal listing video I won't last three seconds, and this thing, you know, watched all twenty minutes of it. Because it was funny. It was memorable. It's an amazing house, you know, then, you know, some more grassroots people, they're doing some amazing stuff with. Like Tim Macy, you know, our common Cameron, which we've had both them. [Chris]: Yeah they've both been on the podcast. [Christian]: Yeah but, you know, the RETV Facebook group is great for kind of forward-thinking, video focused content makers. [Chris]: Erica Wolf just did a new tour of a home.  [Christian]: Right. Yeah…yeah that was pretty…pretty funny.  [Chris]: See those are the things that the MLS won't allow as like listing videos though. Because with an MLS, at least in Georgia, for our listing tours it has to only be the property. So you can use Matterport or could do a video walkthrough, you can't do anything creative on the MLS board. So that's…that's outside of our listing video territory. That's social media marketing. That's promotion… [Christian]: This is if you want to stand out and actually provide something, not just as your own brand, but like if…if your clients want to be aligned with that outside-the-box viral video stuff, you know, I mean…I know like Phil Greeley, locally, he's a Sotheby's and he's just double down on video. And he's gotten some really high-end listings because he's done some…yeah from like doing some amazing videos. That get some great traction, you know. Like that he wouldn't have got that if he just did photos. [Chris]: [inaudible] with Gary Vaynerchuk [phonetics]. [Christian]: Yeah I'm just saying… [Chris]: And he was one of our first guests.  [Christian]: Yes. But I'm just saying it's not like it's worthless. [Chris]: No. [Christian]: But if you're gonna do it, do it right. [Nathan]: Some people do like…what's his name, The wolf of Whistler. [Chris]: Wolf of Whistler?! [Nathan]: Oh tell me you've seen it. [Chris]: Oh I know what you're talking about. Yeah.  [Nathan]: Well I mean his is good. I mean, you know, it's very much like a dollar shape for housing. But it was…I mean it's catchy, it's good, it gets people's attention. [Chris]: So let's talk about quality of listing videos. Because Christiane you kind of got into it and I did a lot of Matter Port. I think Matterport is good spending the money when it's not a seller's market. When…when you don't have to worry about, you know, the property being on the market more than 24 hours. [Christian]: I just do it in all my listings. But I own the camera. [Chris]: So out of Christian… [Christian]: I am just saying it's, you know, it's part of what we offer.  [Chris]: OK. I'm glad, you know, like staging is part of all your listings. I'm sure there's exceptions. [Christian]: If it makes sense. If it makes sense. [Chris]: Yeah yeah it's part of all my listings. So Matterport I've done. And…and I found that the Matterport increased the quality of the showings. Because by the time the people are coming out there, they've seen the property, over and over again. They've already walked the property over and over again. It's decrease the number of showings before contract. And then during the contract period its decrease the number of walk throughs. Why? Because we've already got a diagram that has every measurement of the home that's listed and it's online.  So we've got the entire floor plan of every floor of the house, that Matterport comes with. In addition to that they can continue to walk and do whatever they want. They can be screen shots and save the images. Whatever they need to do at night, in bed, kids are asleep. Whatever it is. Husband and wife. Whoever is buying the house can look at the property together or by themselves and just figure out where their furniture is gonna go, without coming back out to the house while it's under contract. So it's dramatically decreased the number of showings, but it's also decreased the number of times the buyer has to come to the house. In substantially sized homes.  Video. 100% has to be quality. I have fired video or content companies, for photo, Matterport, video. They do it all. I fired them because when I saw the video that they turned out, I can see the footprints in the video going up and down as the photographer's walking through the freaking house. And it just drove me nuts because it's like giving me motion sickness. And I know that my eye is better for that than like most of the public. And hardly anybody's gonna notice. But I notice. That's my brand. So that [censored], not acceptable. It's hard to find a good photographer. Somebody that can do video. Because they've got to have  the equipment. They've got to have the stabilizer. They've got to make it so like they're walking through. They're not like… [Christian]: If you're paying for it they better at least have a gimbal. So you…it doesn't look like they're walking, you know, bouncing walking through the house. I mean it's a basic. You could buy one of those for 80 bucks yourself, you know.  [Chris]: Well if you're using it for an iPhone. But for a camera it's not 80 bucks.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean they're more expensive. But my point is, you know, if you're like that's what you do, you better had the equipment for it. [Chris]: Yeah absolutely. So I've got a great photographer in Georgia. His name is Keith Hirsch, Georgia home view. Best photographer in the state in my book. I've had a lot of people come across my desk and Keith is the only one that I've looked at and I've said “You know what? I can't do this. That's like…that's way above like my…my level.” And I've been in a darkroom since I was 14. So I've been around a camera… [Christian]: They locked you the closet? Under the stairs?  [Chris]: Like developing, you know, each other. [Christian]: Oh OK I thought you were talking about child abuse. OK. I'm sorry. [laughter] [Chris]: A real darkroom. Not Harry Potter's bedroom. [Christian]: Got you. OK. [Chris]: So when I saw that, I got in. and he doesn't have a gimble. He uses a shoulder rig or I think he's got like one of those rigs for his camera, where you hold it with two hands. He's just so good that it looks fluid. Like you can't even tell. I asked him. I thought he shot the inside video with a drone, and he didn't. It was just his camera and he was walking through the property. Look the quality of your media reflects the quality of your work. That's what you're putting out there. If you're putting out a free MLS provided, you know, flipbook, of the properties that you have, the pictures that you've already listed and just putting it to music, nobody's gonna watch that. That's a waste of time. And for you to market yourself and saying “This is a video. Like we're gonna give we're gonna give a video tour of the property too. We're gonna turn all you have pictures into videos.” Welcome to 1997 like tech class in high school. Like that's…that's….we're way beyond that. [Christian]: Sure. Well and that's why I like…I mean when I first got into real estate, you know, I pretty quickly started pushing back against kind of the idea, you know, a lot of agents were being told “Hey you just do something. Just get something out there. Get content out there.” Now I'm like “Well no you better think about it. Better get it right.” Because if you put bad content out there, that's gonna hurt you worse than you if you had nothing out there, in some situations. Because… [Chris]: It's like that note, it's like that saying “There's no such thing as bad press.” [Christian]: That not true. Well because I mean if…if I…if I did…Let's say I did listing photos with my iPhone and you look like [censored] that's not better than having one good picture up there. You know, or, you know, you know, and so far we've talked about like listing videos as far as like if you're gonna do them do them, do them right, do them professionally.  But if there's…I think there's also room for, you know, more on the social media side. For the Facebook lives, Instagram lives, you know, the walkthroughs, the impromptu type stuff. You know, that's not gonna be professionally done edited, that's in on the fly type of thing. There's definitely room for that. But, you know, again have a purpose to it. Don't just be, you know, talking to talk or going live to, you know, to do it. And yeah I don't know.  What are you guys thoughts? Do you go live [Chris]: Nate? [Nathan]: No. Again… [Chris]: [laughter] “No. Not me. I don't do it.” [Nathan]:  I think a lot of these… [Christian]: I think in social media you can. [Nathan]: I think a lot of what we do right now is all dependent upon your market. And were, you know, buy or seller market. What, you know, what you're charging commission. I mean we talk about a lot of things. But a lot depends on what you charge. What condition is your market in. What…what's the house like. How much…you know, let's be honest, you know,  you're not gonna stage one hundred thousand dollar house with three thousand dollars furniture. You know, staging. Right. So it's all relative.  It's each…each situation is different. I am…like I said. I have not staged a house. I've not done video on a home. I do have one that I would consider doing video of. But I think a lot of it is overkill. It's just my opinion. Whatever you do in whoever you use just make sure they're reputable. Like here if I was to have video done, I'd called Joey…Joey T media. He does an awesome job and that's who I would hire. Right out the gate. So just make sure, you know, whatever you do it's…it's professional. That's…that's kind of where I'm at with it. [Chris]: You talked about Facebook live? And go and live on Facebook right now. Just as we're gonna wrap up this episode. [Nathan]: Oh God Almighty. [Chris]: Oh God Almighty. Heaven forbid I go on Facebook live Nate. Like really. So I mean Christian I think you've got some great points when it comes to listing media and making sure that the video is quality. Not using the stupid slideshows of images and how we do the…like the property panorama. What is it? What's the service that you have where you are? [Christian]: I mean whether it's a tool live or a factory. I mean if you wanna do a slideshow, do a slideshow. But don't call it a listing video. You know. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: Don't call it a virtual tour. [Chris]: Yeah it's a slideshow. It's not a listing video. It doesn't help market the property. Nobody's gonna look at it. Make sure that the quality's there. Or, you know, be like Nate and don't do any of it. Just be honest and, you know, what's your humor show. And there we go. [laughter] Christian is playing us back. [Christian]:  I'm watching you live well recording this.  [Chris]: Hey Christian Harris is watching. Bring them online. I'm not bringing you on camera Christian because… [Christian]: No that would be bizarre. We have like us some time vortex. [Chris]: Yeah be like…we will be looping back and forth for like minutes. So it's…it's important that we make sure that the quality of our marketing material is on par with the brand that we want to portray as our business. So, you know, any last words guys before we wrap this up? [Nathan]: No I'm good. [Christian]: Yeah….yeah I mean it's I'd say for any service you provide, any marketing, I mean it really comes down to what are you doing for the client. You know, like do you have… is this intentional or you just kind of like throwing stuff out there? You know, so whether you choose to do video or not, whether you choose to state or not. What…you know, like however you do stuff. Like make it consistent. If, you know, and…and set the expectations up front.  You know, if people are paying you to like be honest and, you know, you…you think all marketing is the same than hey or just, you know, say that out of the gate. You know, but if you think you really do something that kicks [censored] in marketing and that's why they're hiring you, hey make sure to emphasize that. [Chris]: Yeah when…what…definitely. And I will reiterate that. When it comes to your marketing, it is your name, it is your brand, it is you building your business. And if you want to be good at it you need to focus on all of the aspects of your business. You need to make sure that that media that you're putting out there to the public is a reflection of who you want to be. Period. So alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. this has been another episode of re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you on board. If you haven't already, please go to re:Think Real Estate's website which is rtre.podcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter. You'll get a notice every time a new episode drops. And please go on…find us on iTunes at re:Think Real Estate. Leave us a five star review. Tell us what you think about the website or about the podcast. You don't even have it…you don't even have to listen to us. For anybody that's watching on Facebook live right now, just go and leave us a review. We'll be happy. [Christian]: I think. I'm the only one live now.  [Chris]: Yeah one person that's watching live right now. More people will see it later. They're always watching the recaps. So thank you so much. We will see you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode This week we discuss how to keep a real estate transaction moving forward. Listen in to hear ways to keep a real estate transaction on track to closing. Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 30:43 RTRE 57 –  Keeping the Real Estate Transaction Under Control [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Hey everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. We're so happy to have you here this week. We've got Nate back. He is not selling homes right now. We've got Christian here and as always here to talk real estate and all thing real estate related. So just before getting started we were talking about how agents can control the transaction better and make deals go smoothly for our clients. Nate you are always taking listings. What are some things that you are doing to make sure that you are on top of the transaction? [Nathan]: Well again I was start thinking about this a little bit more before we got to recording here but I…again I think you as an individual…we all have different types of personalities but it also setting an expectation to our client. Right. Whether you are the list side or the buy side but you have to set that tone up front.  I am a little bit of a controller. Actually a lot but I like to control the situation. You have to have confidence and knowledge in what you're doing to do all that but that is the way I operate. Most of my clients appreciate that. And the reason I brought this us is because I have got a buddy I met the other day. He is a lender and another lender he knew was taking a beating because unfortunately buyers are liars and this buyers agent is calling and is literally in Ethany [phonetics] and all over the phone. And you know at a certain point you gotta tell a client you know whether you're the agent or you are the agent or the client and your client is the buyer or lister, you gotta have control over the certain things you can't do.  For that lender the agent was his client, I would have fired him. I wouldn't have taken that you know, it is just the way it goes. Same thing, I don't tolerate certain things from my clients. I mean we call it respect. You know a lot of people like to whine in our business but it is OK to lose a client. It is OK not to get every client. And I think we often forget that. It is kind of one of that win at all cost mentality maybe. I don't like that. [Chris]: And I think if you are winning at all cost you are not factoring in what makes this industry fun, it is being able to enjoy it. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: So obviously yeah I mean I feel like you are at the point in your career where yeah you can choose and have the option to fire your clients. But why was it…why do you think it got to that point in the transaction where the agent was calling and cursing at the lender? [Nathan]: Again, you know, I have said this before in our podcast. We want to be emotional. And I have always…I think the best thing I was ever taught when I got in this industry is to take my emotion out of it. [Chris]: Amen to that. [Nathan]: We realtors…You know I am gonna beat us up but as I have said the large majority we just love to feel so important, right? We love to know that “Hey look at me, hey look at me. I am an awesome, awesome relator. I am an awesome realtor”. Like… [Chris]: “Let me tell you about me. Let me tell you about me. It is all about me. Really what do you think about me”.  [Nathan]: Yeah. And so take the emotion out of it. You know, I don't know. [Christian]: Why do you…why do you suppose…I mean I have my thoughts on this. Why do you suppose he thought it was acceptable and call the lender and cuss him out and get all emotional about it? [Nathan]: Well the guy is an [censored] [laughter]. If he were listening, that is what I would tell him. Right.  [Christian]: OK.  [Nathan]: Bottom line is whether we are in realty or not you don't treat other people that way. Like you know… [Christian]: Why… [Nathan]: Yeah why did he treat somebody that way? Probably because he had really bad parents I don't know. [laughter]. [Christian]: Yeah I mean… [Chris]: A lot of people don't think about other people as actual beings. Human. I think that si the problem. [Christian]: I mean and I am on that. Obviously treat people as humans. Treat them with respect. But you know when it comes to like being professional in this industry I mean there is a lot of things that I like to push back on in industry like you know our job is to be the rock when our clients are emotional and deals you know on the brink of falling apart. I mean if we get emotional I mean I don't know any of you…I mean I know you guys have kids. I know that when I am near my kid's emotions and he is getting all ramped up and I am ramped up, that doesn't help. [Chris]: That makes it worse. [Christian]: Worse. But I mean if I can be a consistent calm and I am able to bring it back down to like “OK let's look at the reality of things if you know…” But I think a lot of agents kind of lose their cool because they think “I am advocating for my client. I am passionate when I am doing my job”. No no you are just being a [censored] and you are [censored] things up for your client.  [Nathan]: Yeah well said. [Chris]: So that gets to a great point on helping to control the conversation to control the transaction. Is controlling emotion. [Christian]: Definitely. [Chris]: Because if we can control our emotion and understand that when we are interacting with a client it is a very…they are in a heightened state of emotion. Right. Buying a…Buying a real estate parcel, right a house or a commercial or whatever it is, is extremely stressful for people because they have a lot invested in it. It is a lot of money. It is a big transaction.  So if something bad happens they are gonna think it is the worst thing in the world even if it is just you know a small hiccup. If something miniscule like good happens they are gonna think it is the best thing in the world. So if we can just kind of maintain a level of neither good nor bad on the emotional scale than holy hell like that really can do exactly what it does for your kid Christian. It is just like calm. When something bad goes on don't worry. Got it under control.  [Nathan]: I…you know I wasn't here the last episode we recorded because I had a deal going sideways. Even my client's father flew in from Boston. He was… [Chris]: To help the deal or to ruin the deal.  [Nathan]: Well at first I thought was honestly he was gonna ruin it. He was very emotional. It was his son's house. It is you know a lot of things going sideways on this.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: And you know he called me “What are we gonna do?”. And now we're just [inaudible] we're great. We're good buddies now. But I said “We're gonna work the problem.” “What do you mean?” I said “We're gonna work the problem. Work the problem”. I mean we get…this is 3 days of craziness in my life here recently. And he called me and said “Man I gotta tell you kept your cool.” Yeah I did because me getting upset is exactly what Christian said. It is just gonna make everybody else upset.  .So I am..I am like the captain of the ship right. If I am freaking out everybody else is freaking out. I am you know…It was not fun. But we got through it. And now here is a gentleman that like he is my biggest advocate that I could possibly have now. But I think if I would have reacted the way he was initially reacting it was gonna be really, really bad 3 days for me. And it turned out an Ok 3 days, you know what I mean. [Chris]: Yeah you gotta control that. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: That is definitely one thing that agents can do in a transaction to kind of control the tone, control the pace. It is just control our own emotions because whether you want to believe it or not people are gonna mimic you. That is just how it happens. So obviously in the deal that you mentioned Nate the agent got upset with the lender. Obviously something at some point was not communicated clearly. Because if the lender had all the information and the agent had all the information and the buyer was given all the information than usually…I don't see a circumstance where somebody is gonna yell at somebody. Christian… [Christian]: It sounds like there is an unmet expectation there. I don't know. [Chris]: Yeah it sounds like it. So Christian when you are working with a buyer and you've got all these different wheels that are moving more so than with the seller, what are some things that you are doing to set expectation with people? [Christian]: Yeah I mean I say setting expectations specifically but communication in general that is probably the most important thing you can do as a real estate agent. [Chris]: I agree. [Nathan]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because you can be a terrible agent and totally incompetent but if you can communicate well you look like you're doing your job. You know now whether or not you do the back end and actually have knowledge and stuff that is all a different thing but you can be a rock star agent and know exactly what you're going but if your communication sucks your agent is gonna think you suck. [Chris]: It is like you're up on a show. You've got the curtain right and the clients are seeing what is in front not what is behind. [Christian]: right. And so that is a long answer to basically say I am mister kind of control freak I have got processes for everything. And part of the process is this template email as part of my CRM and first thing we do “Hey we are under contract. OK here is the 5 things you are gonna expect, here is what comes next, here is what we're gonna be doing for you in the next 3 days. Here is what you are gonna be doing”. You know. And after we get past our expectance commencing here is what it is gonna look like.  You know now that is not the only communication but that is like it sets the expectations up front you know because you get a contract and now there is a whole bunch of stuff going on and now they're stressing out. You know I can't be on the phone with them every 10 minutes you know and call them off the ledge. But if you set these expectations and say “This is what happens and this is what we're doing.” And you know checking in with them whenever there is a new bench mark. That has a calming effect you know on them as opposed to they don't hear anything. [Nathan]: Oh yeah you don't have to do a lot. I mean I send out Friday updates. That is what I call it. Friday updates. Every Friday I touch my clients no matter where we are. Just to give them something right. But I mean Christian you hit…all your points were spot on. Maybe you should just have the Christian Harris school of mentoring real estate agents [laughter]. All people can learn from that. [Chris]: Definitely. [Nathan]: You know communication is key. So…I am with you on that one. I am seeing great agents who know everything very well but they are horrible communicators. [Christian]: And to your point Nathan I mean, part of that communication is even if nothing is going on once a week touching in. I do my touching on Monday because typically like if you are working on a listing that is when it is going to be the most information that we can pass. So I do my updates on Mondays. The point is going on “Hey there is nothing going on and I just want you to know so that you are not wondering what is going on”.   [Chris]: Yeah for both of you to reach out and tell somebody nothing has changed, is one of the key differentiators that I have seen for people who are successful  and who are not. Because if you are having that communication level when nothing is happening they know “Oh OK nothing is happening but I am not hearing silence”. Because it is when the seller or the buyer, they hear silence that is when they get in their own head. And they start thinking “Well is this agent really doing things in my best interest. Are they really working on my behalf”. [Christian]: You have to interfere with the doubt and the emotions kind of you know. [Chris]: It comes in the silence. Exactly. Awesome so we're getting about halfway through the episode right now. I want to…we are trying out a new segment called re:Think Realty bonus thoughts where we have a topic to discuss that none of us have seen before. We're just pulling it out of an envelope. So this one is “Things seen in houses.” I am really not sure. I guess we're just supposed to talk about things that we have seen in houses. Things like “Where is Waldo”. Print frames. Eye level in the bathroom. Things like that. Blurred out dog face on a listing photo. [Christian]: So like funny or unique things that we have seen? Is that like… [Chris]: Yeah what are some unique things that you have seen in homes that you have listed? [Christian]: I have seen atrocious staging and unfortunately it was one of my first listings when I was trying out a stager so… [Chris]: Was it really? [Christian]: I had to fire that stager and the stager I use now was the person that came in like 2 days noticed and saved the day. But yeah I have seen that. I have noticed that you want to make sure you have a local stager. Here in Seattle we've got a couple of…Well we've got a lot of island like 107 islands. And one of the…I had a friend who had a mom who does staging so I gave her a hot but she was from one of the islands and she came over and did it and her idea of staging was weaker in floral prints. And it made it look like a grandma's house and it was not gonna fly in Seattle. [Chris]: Wow. [Christian]: That is unfortunately that was kind of my fault but that was something I have seen that was atrocious and made sure it didn't get to the listing photos and that was a learning experience. [crosstalk]. I am sorry? [Chris]: What do you got Nate? What is something you have seen in a house? [Nathan]: Guns. [laughter] [Christian]: Alright. [Nathan]: No, yeah I mean like literally guns just laying out around the house. [Chris]: Oh yeah I have seen that. [Nathan]: Like hand guns and rifles. And magazines in the club. I love guns don't get me wrong but I have got clients who have a kid with me and I am like “Holy snap” like you know what's going on. Like… [Christian]: That is a different world in Ohio I guess. [Chris]: It is not just Ohio we've got that in Georgia too. I have walked through homes and opened up a closet and boom there is a shotgun just sitting right there.  [Nathan]: That is…the oddest…[crosstalk] [Chris]: Yeah so one of the oddest things that I have ever seen in a home is in a basement they…put in multiple urinals in a restroom.  [Christian]: Like a restroom? [Chris]: Like a bathroom but then they…When they finished the basement they made it like a big bathroom with like 3 urinals but no divider. Really, really weird I have no idea why. [Christian]: Were they having like a fight club in the basement?  [Chris]: Yeah yeah it was really weird. I ended up not getting that listing. Because I don't think he liked what I said about marketing that. [Nathan]: Have you guys ever been in a home where they have pad locks on all the doors on the exterior like on a bedroom? [Chris]: I have seen that one. [Christian]: That is creepy as hell.  [Nathan]: I saw that a few weeks ago and I was like “That is really weird”.  [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: I wouldn't want to know what they do. [Chris]: You are either doing some child abuse there or you just got a lot of guns in that room. [Christian]: It's sketchy. [Chris]: Whatever it is. Yeah it is in the living room [laughter]. “You are not getting into my living room. This is mine”. It could be like one of those…Did you all see the listing that it was making the rounds on a few weeks ago, the sex dungeon in the basement? [Nathan]: Awesome. [Chris]: Yeah I mean just things like that.  [Christian]: Yeah like the brokerage had some pretty fun stuff, the lighter side of real estate had some pretty funny things like that.  [Chris]: Yeah definitely the things that they come up with that is absolute hilarity. I can't believe that you know when Kellen [phonetics] when he did his deal to our show got picked up by lighter Real Estate. It was… [Christian]: That was awesome. [Chris]: It was in one of the shows. OK so yeah re:Think Real Estate bonus thoughts. Giving it a shot. Tell us what you think. Make sure you leave us a review on iTunes for anybody listening. I…shoot us a comment either on our Facebook page or on the website on rtrepodcast.com.  So back to today's topic which was the agent's control of the transaction. Where they can make a big impact. Nate what is one of the most impactful things that you find you are able to do for your clients outside of communication and setting expectations? [Nathan]: I don't know. This…I mean it sounds weird but just being upfront and honest. I feel like…I feel like there are so many agents that just are not forthcoming. Do you know what I mean? [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Again it is the win at all cost or lie at all cost just to get the listing. I mean I just went on a listing in an apartment a couple of weeks ago and she walked me up in the room and she said “Nate what do you think about this room”. I started to laugh and she said “What is funny?” And I said “This is a [censored] ugly room”.  And that is all [laughter] I said all these things in here and in the bathroom too and she starts laughing and I say “What is so funny Jane?” And she says “I have had 3 other agents in here and none of them have had the balls to tell me what I already knew.” [laughter]. She said “I love that you already told me that it is ugly”. She said “I know it is ugly but everybody else says this is gorgeous, this is lovely, we will do this to make it look like this”. She is like “It is an ugly room. Why won't somebody just tell me the truth?” And I told her the truth and guess who got the listing?  [Chris]: There you go. There you go. [Nathan]: Tell the truth. If they don't like the truth than they will hire somebody else that will tell them whatever lie they want to hear. [Chris]: And if you feel like you're not up to telling somebody “This is a [censored] ugly room”. You don't have to say it like that.  [Christian]: You can be more diplomatic to be honest. [Chris]: Yeah be more diplomatic. [Christian]: That is not Nate's style. [Nathan]: That is not my style lets be honest. [Chris]: Just so that our audience knows. You don't have to do it Nate's way. You can tell somebody “No this room may not be up to the aesthetics as the rest of the house. We probably won't focus our marketing efforts on this room”. [Christian]: Or “You can burn this room down”. Or something like that. [Chris]: Yeah. Or “We could put up some fumigation label outside so nobody comes in”. Whatever it may be, but yeah on that line with honestly I think one thing agents have sometimes gotten self-caught up in is when they find something that they don't know they will try and [censored] their way out of it. Instead of saying “I don't know, let me get you the answer. We will make sure that we do this the right way”.  And people feel like you know winning at all cost they want to feel like the expert they always want to be in the expert shoes, they don't want to step back and admit you know, “There might be something I don't know here”. You know that is kind of one thing that I think goes a long way in controlling the transaction is don't be afraid to admit where there is something that you haven't dealt with. That is why it is important to have a good team unless you are Nate. In which case you are solo.  But if you've got a good team or resources or you know even friends and people that you respect in the industry and people that you can reach out to as long as they're you know you are following your broker's direction, you are making sure that everything is legal and ethical. I don't think we have to cover that at this stage in the game.  But yeah just making sure that where your shortcoming are you are not [censored] through them. Christian what do you think are some things that you now can help control the situation a little bit more throughout the transaction especially due diligence, getting into financing and getting up to the posing table? [Christian]: Sure so I mean there is obviously like a minimum standard of what an agent has to do. I am more like how much can I do to help an agent. You know. So for us you know I mean like we all know that is…you know good buyers. You know it is the buyers responsibility as part of their…you know once they get a contract and they're talking to a lender and get all the documents they need and stuff. They need to reach to interns company and get a policy in place and that kind of stuff.  But like that is not really on our shoulders but I still make it a point to you know a day or 2 after to send out an email and say “Hey this is a reminder, these is the things that you need to do. Make sure you get your lenders documents at town manor, make sure you get a quote on home insurance because they can't hold an appraisal before you do”. You know just stuff that is not necessarily in my ball part but it helps them know that, like “These are things that you need to do as part of the process”.  [Chris]: Yeah and going an extra mile is huge. We've got a lot of good feedback ever since we started implementing move easy, which ties into our transaction management system. So move easy when our agents mark that their client is under contract they get this digital check list and resource bank that tells them everything that they need to do during the move from “Don't forget to order your moving supplies, don't forget to line up your child care, you're getting all your pet immunizations” whatever it might be. We put all of it in a checklist and our agents…our clients seem to love it. For those that take advantage of it. [Christian]: And that as I recall it is free for agents right? [Chris]: Well it has to be set up on a brokerage level but yes it is free. [Christian]: So talk to your broker about setting it up for you. Or if you do something like client giant you know per agent they do kind of that concierge. They take care of all your utilities and that is helpful too. [Chris]: That's awesome yeah. And that was Jay O'Brien [phonetics] we had him on last year. Definitely a great episode to go and listen to about providing what was it 7 start service in a 3 start industry? [Christian]: Yes. 5 start service and 3 star…7 start... [Nathan]: 7 star… [Chris]: 7 star in a 3 star. [Christian]: It's a good… [Chris]: Yeah it's a good one. He's a really good person to listen to as well.  [Christian]: Yeah for the service yeah.  [Chris]: Yeah I mean there is so many things that we can do to go above and beyond. You know in Georgia the typical transaction is byer gets contract. Contract gets due diligence. Due diligence gets home inspection. After home inspection there is no other inspection done. They may be right on. I have never seen anybody do a lot of base paint test. They just kind of waive that and you know that is it.  But there is so many other things that we can do. We can advise for air quality testing if there are allergies present which that I have seen happen. Partnering them with an insurance agent to make sure that the home is insurable and check for what the previous claims are. Like getting a clue report pulled. All of these things are huge and can make a big impact in not only your client experience but also controlling the situation, making sure that things are discovered before we get too far. So that at the last minute when we get to the closing table things are reared in their ugly head.  [Christian]: So speaking of kind of above and beyond just us doing our jobs for our clients, I mean what are you guys thoughts about health warranties? Typically I have written those off because they are so limited typically. As far as what they replace in the time frame. But like recently I helped a friend of mine buy a house kind of outside of my normal area a little farther outside in Takoma. And the recommended inspector from some of my you know, agent friends down there, they actually include a very inclusive home warranty that I was very impressed with.  And no extra charge you know like because they already did the inspection on the roof so they guarantee the roof is gonna hold for 5 years and appliances for this long and you know all these extra stuff that seems like a real value add for no additional money either to your pocket or out of their pocket. But what are you guys thoughts on hat? [Nathan]: I mean here in Ohio it is long. A seller typically pays for home warranty. I like them but I like to choose it because there are certain home warranties that have what they are called caps or limitations on what they will cover. And if you know those I don't think that is a good value. The ones that I typically go with on home warranty has no caps. The other side of it form a listing side is they have seller protection from the moment we put that house on the market, the items are covered in warranty. But I think you have to articulate to your client that a home warranty is good for your major stuff. [Chris]: Yeah sure. [Nathan]: Your HVAC furnace. [Chris]: Sometimes. [Nathan]: Yeah well OK again here they're smart like don't go and have a home warranty claim when you had an inspection that said it was bad right. That is not the way to do it so… [Chris]: And on top of that if you have a 25 year old HVAC system it is not gonna pay for a brand new system if it [censored] out. It will have a maximum amount that it will pay towards but on a 25 year old system it is gonna not cover that switch over from you know what was it our 20 to now 4 10A or whatever the new coolant is. So you got explain that to your clients.  Again back to what Nate was saying. Expectation setting. Back to what Christian was saying. Expectation setting. Making sure that everybody understands where the value is when they get it. [Christian]: So what you're saying is that home warranty can be of value just make sure you do your research that is actually a quality home warranty that provides something. [Chris]: Yeah. [Nathan]: 100%. [Chris]: On the first home that my wife and I ever purchased, 3 months in the stove shorted out. It came out 50 dollar call, rewired the entire thing and it worked fine. It is still in that home. But that was a lot less than it would have been you know to have you know a new stove or bring out an electrician so it has its values. [Nathan]: Yeah yeah, I just had to call a client and we were 2 days outside of closing an she was the seller and the hot water tank failed. We had seller protection on it. Guess what 65 dollar call, brand new hot water tank. [Chris]: There you go. [Christian]: Save your 500 dollars. [Nathan]: Saved probably more than that and you know she was already stressed out and called the client. I said “Let's have home warranty take care of that”. Again if you know what you're getting can be a great value. But… [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: There are a lot of junk ones. [Chris]: And all of this…yeah all of this goes in line with taking control of the transaction and making sure that we are directing it in a way to get it to the closing table and we are directing it in a way that is in our client's best interest.  [Christian]: Yeah and speaking of staying in control of that transaction one of the things that I see…I moved to a whole other topic on this whole episode, but is that you know what do you do to continue to provide value and stay in front of your clients after closed? Or what the agent is gonna feel at that? [Nathan]: That is a whole episode.  [Chris]: Yeah that is a whole episode. Why don't we get into that next week [laughter]?  [Christian]: OK well I will give a little teaser than. [Chris]: Let's give a teaser and we will get into it next week.  [Christian]: What we started to do is a sort of called home button and that has been great because it is cheap. Right now it is only 25 dollars. You know, to use it and you get it for 500 clients. But basically it provides every month to your home buyer, it provides them with an automated like “Here is what your home is worth and if you refine,  this is what it would look like, if you are AIRBNBed one of your rooms this is the value if you added 300 dollars a month extra payment you know you would pay this much less over the course of yadayada”. So basically provides all these really easy to understand analytics for a client's house that is branded to you.  [Chris]: Awesome.  [Christian]: And instead of you know you sending out some junk email drip thing every month where they probably don't even look at, here is something that directly relates to their house that they're probably gonna look at it. And you can see all the analytics and back end when they're click on it. [Chris]: Thanks for tuning into re:Think Real Estate. Make sure you join us next week as we talk about how to provide value post-closing and control that relationship into the future. Christian you gave a great teaser on that. For anybody who hasn't please go to rtrepodcast.com. Sign up for the newsletter so you never miss when we drop an episode and leave us a 5-star review on iTunes. Have a great day everyone.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Download this Episode In today's episode Chris and Christian briefly discuss their thoughts on home automation and smart technology. Let us know what smart technology you prefer in the comments! Rethink Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 13:51 RTRE 56 –  Where's Tech Going? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris. My man Nate is again out selling homes so he can't be with us here today. But we do want to make sure you're here with us getting the re:Think Real Estate treatment every Monday. So thanks for tuning in. Christian what is going on my man? [Christian]: Hi, I was just thinking about the future of the business and stuff and things and… [Chris]: Yeah what do you think… [Christian]: Things I am not doing because… [Chris]: What do you think it will be like in the future? Take a wild guess. [Christian]: Well I mean I spend a lot of time thinking about marketing, positioning that kind of stuff. [Chris]: OK. [Christian]: You know about 10 years ago podcasting was the new rage. You know it seems like real estate is finally as an industry is catching on to maybe podcasting as a viable medium. We have… [Chris]: Viable I don't know. It is a medium.  [Christian]: Viable like I mean the interwebs [phonetics]. It is not going anywhere. It might be here to stay. [Chris]: Yeah it is here to stay. [Christian]: Yeah you know I have been doing my own podcast for almost 3 years now and I felt like when I started that I was kind of like behind the curb. But I was just kind of thinking you know kind of the newer trends, and I think that there is a big…there is gonna a big push maybe or you know the masses are gonna start adopting kind of the smart homes stuff as opposed to just…I think previously it has been just kind of the more tech savvy people coming out of the fringes.  But I think with Alexa and Echos and Google homes and stuff become more popular as I think that audio content is gonna start becoming you know audio first content is gonna start becoming huge you know. I mean video is just so great but the problem with videos is you've gotta be dedicated to watching that video. And it is the only thing you can do. While audio podcasts are all flash briefing all that stuff that you can be doing something else. You could be driving a car or in your home you can be working. So I think it can be more…as our attention it continues to be demanded in multiple directions so it is gonna be more of a push in adoption for audio first stuff. [Chris]: Like audiobooks right?  [Christian]: What is that? [Chris]: It is like audio books. You just…The way our cars work now with the Bluetooth the moment you get out of the car it pauses, when you get back into the car it keeps going. You know, and you can be driving down the road of in your office and it just the continuity it stops and goes and keeps going and you are able to just load more content while you are doing other thing.  [Christian]: Yeap, exactly you know I was thinking about how this relate to real estate. You know how with the help of an agent or brokerage. And I think it is you know it could be another piece of the content marketing, positioning piece. You know, for me I have been thinking like OK you know I want to start like an Alexa flash briefing, right.  You know those are basically mini 1 to 2 minute…think of them as mini podcast and so you know if you have Alexa at home or Echo you could say…you could enable these skills and say you know, “Alexa play…play my flash briefings for the day”. And what would be a set up 1 minute Gary V sample and then you know social marketing with Chelsey Pites [phonetics] you know or whoever you subscribe to it will give you the little 1 minute blur you know. And the thing that is different about them is that you can't go back. It is kind of like it is today and that is it.  [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So it is very try and forget but I am thinking like if this starts becoming the norm, the thing, you know if people start going to their Alexa for “Hey Alexa what is the weather, what is the traffic, what is the housing market doing?”. You know like there is gonna be more and more skills built out you know by brokerages, by industry leaders, by marketers you know, all that kind of stuff.  So how can you get in front of that? Because right now there is not very much in the real estate space. You know the couple I know about gear towards the real estate agents, geared towards the industry not towards consumers. So what would that look like? You know. [Chris]: So I am not too familiar with like Alexa and Google Home. And all that because frankly I don't want anybody listening to me and I don't need more tech for my kids to interact with right now. [Christian]: But they are already listening. [Chris]: I know I know. [Christian]: Here. Everything [laughter]. [Chris]: Yeah well so probably. But…so we haven't gone on board with the smart home yet. Our home is dump. It was built in the 70s. It is as dump as dump can be. But I did see an article the other day about some technology that is gonna become an outleap next year. OK so mid to late 2020 and we have a ton of cool things on the horizon.  So, Apple is gonna come out with their glasses. And I saw a report on this. And the things are super lightweight and I can just imagine right in 5 or 10 years you are driving down the street or you are in a showing, and you've got your real estate app on your phone and as you walk through the house it is giving you all the details about every room. It is giving you all the updates. You are driving down the street and there is a house for sale and just in your glasses, on your display it is telling you all the price, the bath and bed features, you know.  That is gonna be the world that we live in in a few years. It's…we're not far away from it and you know technology is exponentially increasing. That is not slowing down anytime soon. So like it's gonna be crazy where this all goes. I don't know about Alexa and all that. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: But you're probably right, pretty soon I am sure I will probably have one too.  [Christian]: Yeah well possibly I mean you know, it is hard to tell where the trend is gonna go. Because you know, Google has their glass and that was a major flop. Now maybe it was just ahead of it's time and people weren't ready for it. Maybe it is a platform issue you know, whatever, but yeah we will see. I mean I am definitely seeing the audio…audio first medium catching traction with masses. [Chris]: Good. [Christian]: It is not nearly as rare as the people have you know Google Home or an Echo. [Chris]: Well if you are listening to this episode, tell your friends to listen to this too because podcasts are cool y'all. [Christian]: Yeah and so initially…so my journey into the smart homes started with the Google Home. Right. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Because I think its…we bought a new house and we bought a Nest. And when I bought it had like a have and for 20 bucks you could get to buy a Google Home. You know medium or whatever I am not sure.  [Chris]: Yeah why not. [Christian]: And I was thinking “Hey you know Google versus Amazon of course the Google one is gonna be able to do way more”. But it doesn't. Like it's kind of weak. So…But you know as I experimented with the Alexa app which you can actually download for your phone and essentially you know use the same…the exact same commands and just integrate with your house, I started enabling skills and messing around with that.  And I am like “OK well this is cool”. And so I bought one of the nicer Echos because it has a better speaker because I didn't realize…well the big thing is it is able to like “Hey play jazz music or … you know whatever and it will start playing you know a Spotify channel or you know if it is Google it will play Google play or you know an Echo it will play your Amazon music.  And so you essentially have you know these diverse play list at your fingertips and so I wanted a decent sounding stereo and like the Sonos are actually integrated with the…with the Alexa platform.  [Chris]: The Sonos speaker? [Christian]: Yes. So there are some cool options out there but like that's what we use it for a lot but once you start getting like smart plugs and a Nest of [inaudible] stuff you can set up essentially you know, I don't know, work flows or what do they call it. Something different on the platform. But to say you know, “Alexa good morning and do you have a turn on your lights and start a soft jazz music and turn your heat up” or you know whatever you program it to do. You know. Now we could just make the argument “Hey we are getting lazy”.  But I think the future is going in that direction where I think the people are having to pull out their phones or their watches and like touch the screen is gonna become antiquated and too much of a pain. And they much really just be able to say “Hey do this thing” and have an app launch or have a series of functions happen. So for… [Chris]: Absolutely. [Christian]: So for real estate I think there is some huge, huge… [Chris]: And it is kind of cool. Like “Amazon prepare my house for a showing” and then everything kicks on.. the oil diffuser starts making it smell like cookies. The lighting dims, the music is playing. Like that would be a pretty cool Alexa app. [Christian]: Well yeah I mean and that is if you have a smart phone. It is easy I mean. [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: Set the workflow for this trigger starts playing this music station and let them. I think for real estate you know my point in this is I think it is starting to get beyond novelty to practical and mainstream. And I think the real estates… [Chris]: And it is inexpensive enough to do that now. [Christian]: Right exactly I mean there are nicer…I think the…I think the Echo starts at 40 bucks and the one I have has a decent speaker and it is like 110. You know like you spend hundreds on the Sonos but you know if you want a rocking audio system but…I think for real estate there is opportunities for things like flash briefings and different things that would put you as a leader in technology in providing value and giving up to the community.  You know it is just…And you could repurpose it from a Facebook live or Instagram live. Cut out the audio and there is your daily or weekly briefing or whatever, you know. So there is definitely ways to leverage content you are already creating for these new platforms to continue building your brand.  [Chris]: Sounds good. I will have to get on that Alexa new wagon. I am not there yet. We'll give it time. [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: Well I mean the only thing…[crosstalk]. Unfortunately you know my crystal ball is broken. [Christian]: Yeah is that why you are not rich?  [Chris]: Yeah it is one of those things you know where most predictions never come true but now it is like we are watching this app and… [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: There is definitely something that happens over the next few years. And… [Christian]: Well right and I think the biggest challenge right now with where technology is, is lack of integration. Because you know Google has a proprietor thing. Amazon has theirs you know… [Chris]: They are gonna talk to each other. [Christian]: You know they're different IOT…internet…internet of things. You know I don't think there is a standard protocol so you will have to get stuff that is compatible otherwise you have 2 or  different systems that are smart separately but they don't integrate. Well that is more of a pain than it is worthy. You know. [Chris]: Yeah or you find some manufacturer that makes 2 versions. One that integrates with Alexa and one that integrates with Google. [Christian]: Sure. [Chris]: Pain in the butt. Well I mean it all makes sense. It is gonna be interesting to where this all goes. But I will be interested to see in a few years if you are not right, and that audio and flash briefings become a more important thing in real estate.  [Christian]: Well I am interested to hear what our listeners think. You know leave comment as in  the future how they are using this kind of leading edge technology whether that is audio or you know VR or AR you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So please leave a comment. Let us know what you think. Send us a message. Contact us. Hit the form on the website rtrepodcast.com. Christian if you are right on this than maybe in the near future we need to step in some flash briefings together for the re:Think podcast.  [Christian]: Sounds good and you owe me a drink. [Chris]: Argh always. Get yourself over to Georgia and trust me drinks are on the house.  [Christian]: Alright. [Chris]: Alright everybody thank you so much for tuning in. This has been re:Think Real Estate. We'll catch you next week.  [music]  [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Ever wonder why some people leave a bad taste in your mouth after meeting them? Successful marketing requires building a relationship with your audience. Many real estate professionals avoid this and instead grab a bullhorn and shout at their audience expecting the same results. Tune in for today's episode to hear us talk about how to NOT be annoying in your interactions with the public. The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Audio length 30:15 [music] [Chris]: Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech. [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. What's going on guys? [Christian]: Hey fellas what's happening? Alright [laughter]. Today we're gonna talk about being annoying [laughter].  [Chris]: That's a great intro for that Christian. Before we get started Nate how is your CRM doing? [Nathan]: Yeah…anyway… [Chris]: [laughter] Alright. So yeah, we definitely want to talk about being annoying and how not to do that. Today's episode we're talking about marketing. And our good friend Joe Rand over from JoeRand.com just came out with an article a few days ago which was “Stop being annoying-The 3 phases of communication technology and why nobody likes us”. So great article. Nate you found this. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it? [Nathan]: Well I didn't find it. It happened…you know I found it, whatever. I saw it. It was funny because I was having thoughts like Joe was having and Joe was much better with words than I, that's why he has a couple of books right? But I just…I was getting annoyed because like I get on Facebook right and it's just…it's just…It's not even Facebook anymore. What we used to know right. It's kind of like you know how MTV changed. It's all marketing. It's just marketing. And a lot of it it's realtors who won. I mean I'm not…I hate to be that guy to pick on our industry but again we got a content. It's horrible but again you know whether it's from…And I mean I am looking here right now. Some golf advert to realtor, to realtor, to realtor. Like it's just nonstop and it's poor. And I don't know I feel like we find a good you know what would you call it, a medium, and than we go and ruin it and people hate us for it. And Joe you know wrote the article about how to stop being annoying. He offers a 3-part solution. Phase 1 the excitement. Phase 2 solicitation. 3 is the protection.  [Chris]: Let's talk about that. [Nathan]: Well let's talk about it but I want to get to the point real quick on this and then we go back to the 3 phases.  And then he offers he says “What's the solution?”. He says “Well we can't do anything about everyone else”.  I agree 100%.  “But we can police our own behavior”. Instead of using email, social media, phones to make annoying calls that only serve our own interest we need to focus our outbound marketing efforts on providing a service to other people. Think about what they need not what you need.  [Christian]: But being client centric? What. That's crazy. Thinking about other people.  [Chris]: I've never heard of that before.  [Nathan]: I don't think we've ever talked about that have we? [Chris]: No it's completely out of line with this show.  [Nathan]: So Phase 1. Phase 1 is excitement. [Chris]: And so phase 1 like I think he compared it to people getting an answering machine right. Everybody got an answering machine and everybody wanted to see the red light blinking and then telemarketers just ruined it. And then nobody has an answering machine now and people barely check their voicemail. [Christian]: Sure I mean I think the idea is you know I mean there's quite a number of books on you know technology and evolution of it and this plays right into that theme of when something new comes out it's exciting. Everyone wants it. You know it goes back to like the days of pre-TV with you know door to door salesman. You know like being at home is boring so people wanted people to come to the door.  And then that got saturated and you know you had the mail. People enjoyed getting mail and then you know solicitations and advertisement got in the mail and now people you know hover over the recycling bin throwing away mail.  And you know now you're getting that you know with social media. Like you used to enjoy getting on social media and checking in with friends and whatever and now you have to whip 30 you know half of it is solicitations from agents or other marketers, you know, as agents. We're getting solicited for leading this or growing your business that you know by who knows who. You know so self-described gurus. And you know now you have to filter there. Now you know it takes away the joy of what once was. Looking forward to getting online or looking forward to getting the mail or looking forward to someone getting to your house. Now it's annoying. [Chris]: Yeah we find something that we enjoy. We get excited about it. New technology and all the advertisers start catching on to it. They start saying “Oh we can reach people in a new way through this technology”.  And then they start soliciting and soliciting and hounding us left and right through the mediums that we're enjoying. And that's the end game right? Because that's how these platforms make money. It's though advertising. They're advertising companies.  And then what happens next that's what Joe says is phase 3. That's protection. We stop paying attention to them. We develop coping mechanisms to not be solicited and not listen or not pay attention to the ads that are coming on. And I think that this is a big reason why our attention span has now become that's less than a goldfish. Because that has been a coping mechanism to pay…to not pay attention to all of these solicitations that we're getting.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean I would say that part of it is just a medium of social media. Not necessarily being advertised. You know it's you know there's another big leaf. There is a message in that medium so it's not just the only thing they're consuming is the message you know but consuming a message via print versus auditory, versus you know social media. You know like it's gonna do different things in your brain. You respond differently you know.  But it doesn't help that we now have all this extra white noise to filter through to get to what we actually wanna see which is typically you know friends and family and not solicitors trying and sell us something. [Chris]: Absolutely and so let's talk about how we cannot be annoying. You know I friend people in real estate all the time and last week somebody reached out on Facebook, sent me this message. This person is in real estate.  This is what they said “Hey Christopher I almost didn't message you because I don't want to come across spammy. LOL. My wife and I have had some great result with “Thrive”. More energy [cough] mental clarity, weight management. I even sleep better. It might be for you and I think or it might not and that's OK. Just wanted to share what's working for me. Would you be open to more info?” There's absolutely nothing of value that that person delivered to me. And it's just… [Nathan]: If you're not sleeping well it could be of value. [Chris]: Well do I want more energy or do I want to sleep better? I mean does…is it just me or those 2 are completely different ends of the spectrum?  [Nathan]: [censored] I just want my kid to stay in his bed at night and not interrupt my sleep so if they can fix that for me in that email. [Chris]: [laughter] I mean it's what has become of people. And that person is in real estate and they are paddling a multi-level marketing product on the side. I mean do you think that their real estate marketing may end up following similar pattern? I don't think it's a farfetched to actually see that leap being made. [Nathan]: I think-no go ahead sorry. [Chris]: No I mean I…kind of the point I kind of make here is if you're just going out and peddling something in front of somebody they're gonna ignore you. Those are the coping mechanisms that we have developed now. It's no longer…like we don't like being sold things.  [Nathan]: No I am attracted to the brands or things that eat my curiosity. That I don't feel like they're jammed down my throat.  And so I'll use a perfect example and in no form or shape I represent them but recently I have been doing the Purple Carrot Meal Delivery right. And I just hashtag it on my Ohio running realtor Instagram. You know “#purplecarrotblablabla”. The…I take pictures of the food which is really good. But I have had more people reach out to me just through organically saying “Hey can you tell me a little bit more about Purple Carrot?”.  I am not…I am not on there going “Purple Carrot is the bomb bla bla bla”. I put what the meal is. I state you know whether it is cous cous or whatever it may be, insert a joke there and take a really nice picture and then put it out there.  And I have had a lot of people private message me or DM me or whatever you wanna call it and say “Hey can you tell me more about it?”. I am not forcing it down anybody's throat. I am not saying you have to have this”. But it has created interest.  I am a brand ambassador for Prevail Botanicals. You don't see my thread on Facebook with Prevail every day. We use a hashtag. We don't jam it down your throat. Have that people say “Hey what stuff do you use with your sore muscles and your AT pains from running and bla bla bla” and I say “It's Prevail”.  If they wanna know more than they'll ask but I feel it's the same with real estate. Like if somebody is really genuinely interested in real estate they're gonna ask you. Just...you don't have to jam it down people's throats. At least I believe that you're a [censored] realtor. Like just I don't know I feel like we're so over the top. Like over the time. Like “What do you like better this back porch or that back porch?” “What I like is when you don't post [censored] like that personally but…”  [laughter] Like nobody cares right. I just…They don't care about interest rates unless they are buying a house. They don't care about houses unless they are buying a house. So that's me and it works for me. It doesn't mean it works for everybody else. And my colleague, Mr. Harris, has his hand up over there so I am gonna let him talk on that. I am gonna thank you Christian.  [Christian]: Alright. I am gonna play the devil's advocate here for a sec. What if someone…What if someone is listening and thinking “Well how do we know they're real estate agents there?” Where is the balance between letting someone know and being in sales and annoying when you talk about houses? [Nathan]: Because there is a way to be subtle about it. Like you know…like I don't…I just…like when I go to a closing the biggest thing that I do other than my hashtag that's on a separate entity but I check into a closing and I put “Doing a closing thing”. People know…I mean most people know, I don't want to say everybody, but they know that I am a realtor or that in some way I am doing that business. And there's other ways.  I don't know. I just don't want my social media feed filled with that crap and guess what I have taken the option of doing. I have taken the choice of filtering all that out. You know. It's that old advertisement. You don't like something on the TV change the channel. I have changed the channel. So… [Chris]: I think it all comes down to the message. Marketing is required. The marketing is the…it is the whole process of staying top of mind in our sphere but there are different ways that we can do it right.  So an example is, Nathan you just brought up rates. Your typical buyer doesn't care about the rate. Unless they're very savvy. They care about the payment. So if your post on social media “Up rates just jumped again” and all you talk about is the rate than that doesn't really provide any value to them. That your target audience may know that you have something to do with real estate but they're not really paying attention to that message.  On the other hand if you say “Rates just jumped again” so…and then you kind of put that in context and say “Well a $200.000 house now the payment went from on average about 12.000 to now about 13.000” that means something a little bit more that is easier for somebody outside of the industry to understand.  I think that marketing involves us putting ourselves in the potential client shoes. The shoes of the consumer, to understand what is important to them.  If you talk about due diligence right they don't care about due diligence. They buy a house once every 10 years. They don't need to know that stuff every day. They need to know what is going on in the community. Right.  Realtors should be the digital mayor of the community. They should be out there saying “Well we have these festivals going on. I'll see you there”. Or share a personal story that really somebody can resonate with that may reflect around what you do professionally that gives some sort of authenticity and come insight to show that you're human and that you're not just trying to sell them on something. Because that's…that's been the focal point for everything that we do. That's the idea behind client's centricity. Is putting their needs first. We need to do that in our marketing too.  [Christian]: I think you being up an interesting point. It's a lot of it comes down to marketing you know that is that. And in my experience yeah the majority of what is being peddled out there is marketing in real estate you know by franchises, by gurus, by trainers is pretty much the opposite of you know Joe Rants “Don't be annoying”.  You know they say “You gotta be top of mind”. And to them that's making your phone calls and pestering people and going online. And if you go “Oh by the way if you know anyone that can buy or sell a house” like everyone is taught to say that so everyone says it so no one…so it means nothing to no one. People are just like “Oh yeah that's what a realtor says” you know. It's like a stand up. You know that's bad marketing. That is low bar. I am not thinking I am just told to do this and I am gonna do it and supposedly that will give me result. They probably are not the results that you want.  [Chris]: I think you just hit the nail in the head there.  [Nathan]: I do too. [Chris]: Thinking. And that's the problem. If you're gonna market effectively you have to think about what the message is that is gonna solve the problem for your consumer. [Christian]: Well you have to start with who your consumer is. You know if it is the population that you asked well there is your first problem. Like that should not be your targeting market. You know. [Chris]: You've got different segments right. You've got …there might be an itch that you work. And that might be your thing to go after her whether that we based off of a previous profession, a hobby. Whether you're running or cycling or you just love giving back in the community and you're in the philanthropy space. You have geographic which is you can market based off of where you live and where you do business or you can go and just focus on something specific in real estate right.  If you focus on if you're in the equestrian market and you've grown up in the equestrian world and you understand horse ranches better than anybody else that is something that you can specifically market to but the fact is that no matter what you're marketing to, what segment that is you've gotta find out a way to provide value to them.  It's geographic. Share what's going on in the community. I can't tell you how many times I have heard that said, “Share what is going on in the community“ and how little people actually do it.  [Christian]: Yeah I mean even if you don't have all that figured out just be an interesting person [laughter]. I mean like I think like Peter Lorimer or something you know. Obviously he's got a big personality like British accent and stuff but like this guy has hands in everything. And it's all really interesting to watch or listen to. You know, and I get the impression he is trying to sell to me. Like it's always helping agents or you know “Look at this cool thing, this is what I am doing in my life right now”. Like it's never “Hey if you're looking to buy or sell you know in Los Angeles…” or whatever you know yeah I mean you could figure it out.  So going back to kind of our initial conversation about Joe Rants 3 things it's as you were giving that example you know you received a social message whatever it was. It is interesting that we have gotten you know most people think we are related to this. We've gotten so far along the hiatus to the sales pitch that they don't even pretend it's not a sales pitch. They just come up like “Hey I hope this isn't annoying to you” or “I hope this doesn't come off as spammy” [laughter] which really means “This is a standard sales pitch”. [Chris]: Yeah you know “I am about to annoy the hell out of you”. [Christian]: As if that's more authentic and will make it less salesly or you're more likely to you know like they think that that's they know that's a barrier and they think that admitting it will be less a barrier. When in reality that's just like “Oh thankfully I didn't read the whole message. Delete”. Just put it up front so I can delete quickly you know.  [Chris]: Definitely. I mean my response to him was” you know “You should have stuck with your gut. [laughter]. It was definitely spammy and annoying. And shouldn't have messaged me.” But agents do that all the time. Real estate agents they do the same thing that multi-level marketing people are doing. “Hey haven't talked to you in a while. Wanted to reach out and let you know I am in real estate now. Do you know anybody that is looking to buy or sell in the next you know 30-60-90 days”. Whatever it is.  Agents do that all the time and there's…it's actually really easy to not do that. Like if you meet somebody and they ask you what you do the first thing you're gonna say is “Real estate”. And they're just gonna come down and immediately ask you how the market is. That is the instantly question that the buyers or anybody that you meet are gonna ask you once they find out that you're in real estate. So what do most agents do? Well most agents the moment they get asked that question they say “The market is great. The market is great. When are you looking to move?” or “Are you looking to move?”. They immediately position themselves for the time share pitch. And that's the high pressure.  [Christian]: That's desperate. [Chris]: They come off as desperate. And the people that are on the opposite side they don't feel like they're on a conversation anymore. They feel like they're being cornered into becoming a lead. And people don't want to be considered a lead. They want to be considered you know their name and they don't want to be you know a prospect.  So a great way that that can be changed is instead of asking them “Well you know are you looking to buy or sell?”. “Who is your realtor?” “Oh I don't have a realtor I am not in the market”. “Oh great well not everybody is in the market at all time. So who do you call when you need to file your tax assessment? Who do you call when you're trying to figure out how much money you should spend on the renovation and you want to make sure that you don't get negative equity?” “Like these are kind of free services, they're complimentary services that we offer to everybody in the community as part of our company and I'd love to be able to be that person for you if you ever need to reach out. If some of these people end up using me to buy or sell some of us don't but it's not a big deal but we're here for you and we want to provide value”.  Doing something like that the conversation goes a whole different way. People have respect for you for not trying to sell them. They thing that you're a professional and that you don't need to beg for the business and it's just a different impression that we can leave on the people that we meet. [Nathan]:  That's just…it makes me think of this example of why we have a bad name. Next door you know the social site, right? OK right so somebody the other day posted “Hey I got friends looking to move in the neighborhood. If you know anybody looking to sell let me know.” Of course it got like 5 responses right. And one of those responses is somebody I know that is getting ready to least and bla bla bla. What they didn't realize as soon as they responded the person said “Well I am an agent and I've got clients looking in this area, what do you have and I'll let you…” It's the classic [censored] you know. They didn't have anything.  [Christian]: Switch.  [Nathan]: It was just the baiting switch. And my client was just like “Man that is so shady” and I was like “And people wonder why we have such a bad name. When you do [censored] like that it's just horrible”. I like…I wanted to message everybody in that thread and “Hey you do know this person is an agent and they're actually not looking for their family member, they're trying to find new clients. Like it's such a [censored] shady way to do things”.  [Christian]: Do you guys follow the broke agent? [Chris]: [laughter] Yeah on occasion.  [Nathan]: Yeah you're talking to him [laughter]. [Christian] Alright. You know there's a funny you know GIF meme he posted the other day. It was like it was a clip from one of The pirates of the Caribbean movies where Jack Sparrow is being chased across the beach by a mob, you know. It's like I think the subtext was like “You know when someone posts online about their selling their house and these agents just the mob of agents chasing them you know”. It's like pretty much sums it up. [Nathan]: Yeah they go “Opportunity oh my God lets start salivating and jumping over each other”. [Chris]: So lets talk about that. If someone posted online that they want an agent what do you do? [Christian]: They usually won't though. They're usually more cryptic like “I am moving to this area” or “I am fixing my house up to sell”. Like you…I mean no one goes out there and says “Hey I am looking for an agent”. [Chris]: Well like OK so whatever the message is whether that is cryptic or direct what do you do? [Christian]: Well usually there is over 150 replies by other desperate agents by the time I read it so I usually do nothing.   [Chris]: OK. Nate do you do anything on those posts? [Nathan]: It depends. And sometimes yes I will. But I try to spin it from what you said. What value I can give them upfront. And part of that I think it's just being honest you know. So…you know again if they choose you than great. I have never had it happen. Actually no. I take that back. I had person that I did speak with who actually didn't list their home but they appreciated that I was just honest. They felt that everybody reached out to him swung him some line of [censored] and I just told him what I felt. But we all know that's me so… [Chris]: Well you're good at that. So one of the things that has worked for me because I actually have gotten some business off of some of those posts. Everybody is gonna comment “Oh so and so is a great realtor. So and so is a great realtor”. What I have done in the past is I have reached out to them directly. Send them a private message.  [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: If I knew them personally I would send them an email or text. I would just say “Hey I saw your post online. I know you're gonna have a million people that are hounding you for business. Just be careful who you hire. Make sure you vet them properly. If you need anything just know that I am in real estate and…” Throw a couple of credential in there but just let them know that if they have any questions you know we're here to answer it.   I have had more conversations with people like that and I have received probably 6 or 7 referrals off of threads where people were like hundreds steep. I have received 6 or 7 of those referrals where I have messaged different agents and let them know the exact same thing. And people appreciate that. They don't like being sold. They don't like being pressured. And it's just a different environment. You get out of this competition thread and you get into this 1 on 1 message. And people like feeling like they're the center of the universe so you just make them feel that way.  [Nathan]: I agree.  [Chris]: Good so I like being right. [Christian]: So awkward silence yeah. How do you sum up this episode? What are your takeaways here other than don't be annoying? [Chris]: Yeah I mean we've gotta be careful with our message. It's so easy to get out there and just want to tell everybody that you're in real estate. But I think that agents need to put some thought behind what they're saying. And really think about how it's gonna come across to the people that they're delivering the message to.  We've talked about proving value throughout the history of the show. And I think that now more than ever that's gonna be more and more important. Especially with the rise of the high byer where they're getting ads saying “Hey it's so easy don't deal with all the hassle. Don't deal with being hounded by 100 agents when you comment online. Don't deal with staging or showing or any of that just let us sell it.” And people are so willing to avoid us and to avoid the showings and the solicitations that they're willing to give up 20-30% of the total value of their house just to not do that. And I think that that is absolutely insane. So we've got to shift our focus. Anything else guys? [Christian]: I would say if this is confusing to you as an agent forget everything that's you know your broker or the better agents told you about it in prospecting and hounding people and being top of mind. Just think to yourself “Hey would I like someone else to do this to me?”  If the answer is “No I don't want someone calling me pretending like they care about me just to ask if I am looking to buy or sell this year” well don't do it.  If you don't want someone knocking on your door without you inviting them over, don't [censored] do it. You know I mean like it's really not that hard. Stop making excuses about “Well this is my job and if I don't tell them or bug the [censored] out of people, if I am not annoying than I am not doing my job”. Well figure out how to do it not annoying or you will find another job to do.  [Chris]: And I'll just add on to that because calling is important. It's not to say “Don't call your prospects” but when you call them don't say “Hey do you…I can sell your house. I can do this”. [Nathan]: [laughter] Don't lead with that.  [Christian] Provide some value. Yeah. [Chris]: You know provide value. “Hey what can I do to help? I am sure you're getting a million calls right now” or “It's been a while since we've touched base. What…Where are you in the process?”. Make it about them. [Christian] Right and I will add. The value is not you calling them as an agent. You know I have had…I have seen online threads where basically an agent has been told their whole career to provide value but they don't know what that is. They think just them showing up is them providing value.  You know like it's…It reminds me of the scene from Office Space where you know the guy is being grilled like “What exactly did you say you do here?” “I AM A PEOPLE PERSON. WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THAT?!” [laughter]. “I PROVIDE VALUE. WHY CAN'T ANYONE SEE THAT?” Like you're probably not providing value if people can't see that. [Chris]: Exactly. [Nathan]: Amen. Cool.  [Chris]: Hey any final words? [Nathan]: No. Don't be annoying. I agree that what Christian said, if it would bother you than you probably shouldn't be doing that. Just what sounds like common sense is really not common sense or maybe is that whole adage of the easiest thing to do are the hardest things to get done.  [Chris]: I like it. Alright. Well everybody thank you so much for tuning into our 50th episode of Re:Think Real Estate. We appreciate you tuning in and listening. If you haven't yet please go to the website rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe so you never miss and episode and give us a 5 star review on iTunes and Google Play. We'll catch you next week. Cool.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this weeks episode of the Re:Think Real Estate  Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch, K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Tim Hur is the Managing Broker of Point Honors & Associates, a residential real estate firm in Duluth, GA. Tim has built a great firm and has also served on NAR's Fair Housing committee during 2018. Tim joins us to give life to the fair housing conversation and why it's important in our business. He also answers great questions around involvement in the industry and commitment to clients needs. Don't miss this episode. Tune in and listen to your favorite real estate podcast, reThink Real Estate. You can find Tim Hur at https://www.pointhonors.com The re:think real estate podcast is hosted by Chris Lazarus, Nathan White, and Christian Harris. Thank you for tuning in. Please subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Real Estate Podcast Transcription Audio length 36:42 RTRE 49 – Tim Hur, Managing Real Estate Broker of Point Honors [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Christian Harris and Nathan White. Guys what's going on? [Christian]: Not much. Talking to my favorite people.   [Nathan]: Speak for yourself. But I am glad to be here on recording so that's good. Excited we get to talk about some new stuff. For someone might be boring but I still find it interesting so I am excited about that. And this is about it. [Chris]: How is your CMA going? [Nathan]: My CRM…I am just slightly…I'm doing alright. [Chris]: CRM. I say CMA because Christian was just talking about could services and CRM. You know. [Nathan]: That is something I am still failing at. We won't talk about it. We have a guest and we don't want to bore people. [Chris]: We'll move on. We do. We do have a guest. We have great guest. His name is Tim Hur. For those of you who haven't seen him at NAR events, Tim is the managing broker of Point Honors. His bio is a freaking novel. So we're gonna let Tim. Tim thanks for joining us today.  [Tim]: No thank you so much for the invitation. I really appreciate it. It's a lot of fun.  [Chris]: It's great to have you on. So for…for our audience you have achieved quite a lot of honors. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself? And what you're doing. [Tim]: Sure. Thank you so much for that [laughter]. I appreciate that. Well my name is Tim Hur. Unfortunate not related to the fictional character Ben Hur otherwise I would be not selling real estate. Of course. But no I am…I was your 2018 chair, national chair for diversity for NRA based here in Atlanta. And I have been rocking and rolling ever since, been a realtor for what 12,13 years now. Kind of have been doing this right after college.  [Chris]: Nice. So tell us your story. Did…Where did you grow up? How did you get into real estate? Where did you go to school? All the fun stuff. [Tim]: Sure. I was born in Huston. Moved to Atlanta than got too far away. You know, I went to high school here. I went to Georgia Tech right after that. And… [Chris]: [inaudible] [Tim]: I know. [laughter] Either you hate me or you love me. One or the other. But I had a really good opportunity going to real estate. So I got my license and got into real estate right before the crash. So it was really good. We all…I think a lot of us who have endured the pains of early real estate and have been in the industry at least for a while and everyone is complaining about interest rates right now but you know we started real estate when we were selling into it. It was 7,8,9,10,11,12%. So you know.  The market tanked so I moved over to commercial for a little bit. And sustained myself with Doreos [phonetics] and commercial and came right back swinging and we've been…You know we have a small team here. We have about 18 agents in our company and we operate pretty well. So… [Chris]: That's awesome so you were the 2018 national chair for Federal Fair Housing and implementing that. [Tim]: Well slightly. So yeah I was 2018 chair diversity.  [Chris]: Can you tell us on how that went on.  [Tim]: Yeah so the 2018 yeah chair for diversity. [Chris]: OK. [Tim]: So the diversity committee from the national association of realtors we were…one of our tasks was to make sure that we helped launch the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the fair housing act. So we were…we were very hands on on that last year.  [Chris]: So what was the…like how did that go? What did you do for the 50th anniversary? I know I saw you at several events. But what was the whole…What did NAR put together for that? [Tim]: Sure. So you know a lot of us you know we think of fair housing and fair housing violations more as…I mean this...It is obviously a very dry subject and a very boring subject at times but it is very instrumental and very important. But a lot of us put their housing as a risk. More than something that you can violate… [Christian]: You can't [laughter] [laughter].  [Tim]: …Trouble and then we learn about it. But really we were trying to take it different aspect of it and try show that fair housing really should be implemented in the beginning where you really should know about fair housing.  And the 50th anniversary was very, very instrumental and very…is very important because as realtors we are on the wrong side of the law. Back in 1924 our code of ethics actually said that we would not be instrumental in introducing members of the community that would actually bring down poppy values. It was a direct attack on you know Asians, Blacks, Hispanics. So there was actually red lining and we were instrumental in doing that. Obviously we…that's why it was very important. [Chris]: We as realtors, not… [Tim]: Right. Realtors [laughter]. Yeah that was in the code of ethics. And you know can you…Nobody really believes that 50 years ago that we were actually fighting against fair housing.  And you know obviously people don't know this as well but you know Atlanta has a very strong history with Dr. Martin Luther King and he actually was a very big pioneer in fair housing. And the day after the assassination of Dr. King, about a week later was when the fair housing act was signed.  So it kind of…you know it kind of…there was a lot of things that went out to it. And realtors got smart and the legal issues got smart and we started putting restrictions and covenants. And you know building you know, fair housing violations into them. But now it's obviously, it's all been taken away.  You know as realtors or you know, people that are in the real estate industry we are now looking beyond race and all the…classes at the fair housing act and trying to include LGBT queue housing rights and stuff like that. So we are looking at the future as well to make sure that stuff like this does not happen again.  [Nathan]: So question for you than Tim, and I don't want this to sound ignorant.  [Tim]: No no. It's OK.  [Nathan]: Right [laughter] you know, like fair housing you said it sounds boring but it's not but then again how big of an issue is it? Like it's not…Like I just don't…my mind doesn't think that way to say “Oh we can't take you here because of this, that or you know redlining as we talk” or steering. My mind does not work like that. Like it just… [Tim]: And that's like…that's the point. Right. So a lot of us…And that's why it was very important. Not a lot of us don't think to vio…Intentionally violate the fair housing act. Nobody goes out and says “I am gonna discriminate tomorrow” or “I am not gonna do this and that”.  We do it unintentionally and it brings up…that's why it was brought up to light. You know when we…for example you know there is issues such as you know I know that you know we as realtors and tidal companies you know there is a lot of D distinctions where it says “This property cannot be sold to somebody of black descend or Asian descent”. It is actually built into the legal description. [Chris]: I saw somebody post one of those online the other day. Yeah. [Tim]: Right isn't that crazy? [Chris]: Yeah and it's the first time I have been in real estate since 2010, that's the first time I have ever seen it. [Tim]: Yeah and you…it's still there. What people don't realize is that Tidal companies they assure over it because it is illegal. They don't really remove that portion where it says, this portion you know “This must sold…”.  So you know a lot of it is awareness but a lot of us don't go out and say “I am going to go and discriminate against you know, somebody in some, you know one of the protected classes.” We just don't think that way. That's why it's very important. That's why NAR really…and a lot of people took this as a moral of risk issue. Our committee was very…we were very adamant about you know rewriting the fair housing camp book. And making sure that everyone is tarter at the beginning. Yeah not to intentionally violate but a lot of us just don't know. And we just don't know. Sometimes you need a refresher.  [Christian]: So I have a question so if some would say, I have heard you know going back… [Chris]:[inaudible] [Christian]: Yes. And I am in Seattle. So you know it should be much more progressive and more focused on… [Tim]: Sure. [Christian]: …Discrimination. That sort of thing. You know I have heard you know very well articulated points that you know the history of real estate is reared with if not has a lot of racism and discrimination in history. And sounds like back in the day NAR and probably the whole real estate industry as a whole is on the wrong side of this issue. When did that change? Was that kind of the process of the civil right movement as society started shifting? Or.. [Tim]: Yeah I think…So I think you know I can't speak on behalf…I am not a history bud, but you know a portion of it you know when FHA started issuing loans. You know a lot of after World War 2 a lot of our veterans wanted to have the white big fences and to live in suburbs. And they were denied that because of FHA insurability and saying there whole fair housing violations here.  You know, as people came back and they were promised they could live in suburbs and they don't have to live in you know in the city limits sometimes and you know a lot of this stuff that were not allowed they weren't given the same rights so to speak. Some were African Americans but you know we also have to look at you know women. Women were not allowed to own real estate without the permission of their fathers or their husbands until certain parts of the country until the 70s or 80s. So you know, this is a very recent event. These are not stuff that again you know you talk about Seattle being very progressive and you know and California LA but you know fair housing violations come all the time.  [Chris]: Really? No way. [Tim]: I know that there are several instances where I have been, when I go around the country for renters. Renters they see an interracial couple. And the landlord is like “No not renting to you”. But in the beginning it was fine because they look at the last name and they were like “Sure sure sure”. And than they come and meet the tenant and they're like “I don't want to rent to you anymore”. Why? “So what's really the case. Why are you not renting to me?”  So you know there is a lot of those…there is instances and maybe there are one offs sometime but I think that if you talk to some of our women or if you talk to some of our multicultural clients or agents they may have a lot of different stories. And it was really interesting to hear a lot of stories.  You know there was one case in Chicago. There was one of the champions that I know. And he was talking about how he opened a real estate company and people just kept his phone lines busy so that he cannot sell real estate. So you know back in the day we didn't have email so you know all we did was we had a group of people keeping his phone lines constantly busy so that nobody could call his real estate office. [Christian]: Wow. [Chris]: Because he was black. [Christian]: That's messed up. [Tim]: That's crazy. Yeah it's crazy. You would never think that. That's just something they thought about. [Chris]: You know what year it was? What year was that? Do you know? [Tim]: This is right…I think this is…I don't know. He does speak often. He is at the VLNAIR [phonetics] conference. Well…But yeah it's crazy just to hear this. [Chris]: It's nuts.  [Christian]: That's in our generation. [laughter]. [Tim]: Yeah.  [Christian]: That's… [Tim]: It's only a few years. So what can we do? [Christian]: Yeah for like your situation you're talking about with the…the rental discrimination with like mixed race couple or whatever. I mean what sort of resort they have because I mean let's say “Why don't you rent to us?”. I would imagine most landlords aren't gonna be dumb enough to be like “Well because you're black”.  [Tim]: You actually would be surprised.  [Christian]: OK. [Tim]: Actually you would be surprised. So you would actually be very surprised. And a lot of realtors you have to be very careful as well.  [Christian]: Sure. [Tim]: Because you know and you know the way that you…You have to be puritan. If you report it you have a special dedicated line. You know you have to really be careful and they'll make the calls. [Christian]: Sure. [Tim]: You know if it's not any to you and they deny you. They may not sustain. They may not claim race or they may not claim sexual orientation or whatever the case is or classes. But they can…if you are denied they will call the landlord back and see if it is available for rent. And if it is they will try to go through the whole process you know with a very different case scenario. And see why they wouldn't rent. So you know if you don't report it, it doesn't get reported. So we encourage everyone. If you see violations, you have to report it. [Christian]: Sure. Now I would imagine that the violations, well I mean you know prior to the fair housing act you know it was just kind of part for the course. But I would imagine with those initially enacted those violations were much more obvious you know as they were struggling to civil rights and racial discrimination stuff. I would imagine it is much subtler these days. I mean what are you seeing as the most common violations you know and I would imagine a lot of those are even unknowing violations. What are you seeing now?  [Tim]: Yeah I don't know if there is any common violations. Right. And again nobody goes out there and says “I am going to discriminate against a certain race or you know religion.” It's you know…it may be more nuanced or a little more subtle than before. It may not be so plain. But you know it does exist and it does happen.  You know it depends…depending on what part of the country you may be in and if you're not aware or how to work with a certain culture you may…you may…you may be found in violation. Especially from the code of ethics not if you are a realtor. But you may be found guilty of violating their housing. And again it's a matter of reporting it. Rather than you know…And figuring out was it really a fair housing violation they really…”Are they doing something against me?”. [Christian]: Sure, do they take into account kind of intention versus ignorance or kind of just kind of if you were violated you violated it. [Tim]: That's…it depends on how that I guess would…how they want to…you know, how they want to approach it. You know I think a lot of the familiar status gets…gets you know found upon. You know being single versus with family right you know with 2,3 children,4 children, 5 children. You know what…I see that part often as well. You know, disability. You know, you have to make sure you don't discriminate on disability. So it's…I think some of the…You know…A lot of the stuff…some of this comes up especially during the rental process. No, I don't think you know someone says no to somebody when they buy or sell as much as you may see that in more of a lender, tenant sometimes. [Christian]: Sure. The ones I have seen…You own a brokerage, is that correct? [Tim]: I do. [Christian]: OK. As do I and Chris. And the thing I have seen most common that I had a couple of agents on would be like listing descriptions. Would be like “This is a perfect friendly house”. I am like “Yeah you can't say that”. You know, great for kids, you know.  And the other think I heard recently you know was an agent who was working with an Indian buyer and they were like “I want to live in a neighborhood hat is primarily Indian”. He is like “I can't tell you that. You do your research, you tell me where you are looking and I will support that”. But you know… [Tim]: Yeah if you say like “Oh yeah this is…you know…I think I know where you would like to live because there is a very big Chinese community”. You know that…that's…you're steering somebody so you have to be very careful how you do that. You know the next kind of the big one you know is schooling.  You know schools and how much is good schools. Is that also kind of rooted into fair housing right. Because sometimes some of the better schools will have certain races that would make them more predominant. And so people have been using sometimes, may be using schools for fair housing violations. So you have to be as an agent and as broker, be very careful of schools. Because they are looking at that now. [Christian]: So you're saying they're kind of using that as the avenue to be in a predominantly white neighborhood or something like that? [Tim]: Potentially yeah, potentially right. So you may need to be careful on how we present schools. You know if you're saying that this is a really good school it's very different form saying “Hey this school is predominantly white”. You know in a predominantly higher class subdivision, or a neighborhood so you have to be very careful of how you use school in it too because they can use that… You know it is interesting that you bring schools up too. Or I brought it up but you know the listing descriptions anyway. Because the other day I was browsing around and there is a couple of apps on…on target marketing. And some of the target marketing for properties I have seen clearly violates fair housing. And I brought it to their attention and they're like “Wow wow we don't do that”. But I am like “But you can click male or female and you can click how many children that they have and you can click you know…”Because the data is out there.  So you have to be very careful on how you do your advertising as well and this is why Facebook got sued. Because you know make sure that you're advertising when you do decide to purchase ad space, that it is open to all. Because you know in certain people…and this is another unintentional case.  So people have said “Hey this million-dollar house I envision this to be a certain client. You know it's gonna be someone with a certain amount of wealth. And you know a certain race and sex”. And so they target, hyper target it you know a certain demographics so to speak. And you know instead of targeting based upon salary they were doing it…you can literally click on the different options and I was telling them “This is very bad”.  And then of course they redid their algorithm and they took out some of the choices but that it happens. So again another unintentional violation. You're not going out there as an agent to intentionally say “Hey I am going to market this property only to white people or only to Asians in this market or only to certain you know, Chinese”. You know whatever the case may be. So unintentional. [Chris]: That's interesting that you…you know with the whole schools and how Christian you mentioned being a predominantly white neighborhood for a school with…you know Harvard was just recently sued by Asian students for… [Tim]: Right. [Chris]: For not being able to get in because they were too good. So I mean it…cultures are changing. The demographics are changing and you know us as agents…what are some things Tim that really brokers or agents should know? Brokers can train the agents or things that agents should know to be aware of outside of the normal like federal fair housing. Because you mentioned online with algorithms. [Tim]: Yeah. [Chris]: There really has not bene anything that comes down formally that says “This is how you can use demographics online to advertise”.  [Tim]: Right. [Chris]: In the past we've had…Say you're in the Buford Highway area and you're advertising in a Korean newspaper. In Korean. In…In my training it has been that if you were advertising that elsewhere in the general population that is sufficient but if you go online and you target that it's a completely different story.  [Tim]: Yeah I think the intent is always a key factor, right. So you know as brokers our jobs are getting much harder. You know as an agent it's very important to train them but you know we…they're independent agents. You know we don't…They're not employees of our companies. You know we do have to watch what they do and what they say and I have seen a lot of employment agreement or…You know not employment agreement. I have seen a lot of independent contractors in the game that are actually saying that they are able to monitor social media. Right? Because that's one of the places where a lot of people do market their properties now.  And it does get a little harder as our jobs you know, as you grow you firm and your brokerage firm gets bigger and bigger and bigger. You know, how do you control your 3000 agents in you know do not violate right and who is the one that gets the trouble the broker or the agent? Right? Who is the one that has to go through the whole process and who is the one that is gonna get fined?  So it is you know…It's hard to always…Our job is you know to not employ…not only to encourage our agents to make money but to help them you know elevate their business. But it is a harder job for us. You know you mentioned advertising in different languages. And yeah you know I always say make sure that you just don't advertise it just to 1 community or 1 avenue. Make sure it is available to everyone.  And I think just in general it's good practice anyway. You know, why would you put everything in all Chinese or in all you know or in Spanish. You're limiting your market sphere anyway so why would you do that? [Chris]: Yeah. [Tim]: You know it's good practice. [Chris]: So what got you involved with NAR? So you came into this before, divide, you got into commercial. What created your firm and why did you get involved on the level that you did? Let's steer a little bit off of fair housing. [Tim]: Yeah. It was fun stuff. NAR you know being a realtor, starting off in a realtor world, you know that is something that we kind of naturally gravitate towards. I was fortunate. I kind of took a different path. I went to NAR and started on committees at NAR first.  I am kind of a little bit of a goof ball and I was taking a…auditing a class. ABR class. And I just happened to be with a lot of the past presidents and future presidents of NAR in the class. And it was really cold and being from Georgia I am always cold. I don't like snow and I took…I was in a hotel room and me and the instructor were just fighting you know over the thermostat and I just eventually took the hotel robe and I just brought it to class. And the minute he started playing with the thermometer I was like “Done, can't do it anymore”. Just put on my robe. Out at the NAR building. All the along had no idea. I didn't even know who I was even talking to. I was just like “Oh I came to take a class”. And then everyone was like “Is that the robe from the hotel? Did you just steal a robe? We're paying for your class”. And I am like “Oh no no I will take it back, I will take it back”. Come to find out that was Ron Vapes and Steve Brown and those were all the future presidents and the past presidents of NAR. So I think I made a little bit of an interesting impact rather [laughter]… [Chris]: Yeah that's a little bit of an impact.  [Tim]: Yeah but and you know I started getting involved with the realtor world just because it's very important for us to really ensure that our business is sustainable. You know there's so many things that we do and one of the few plan to my president circle…planted our members in Georgia. And I just…you know. Right? [Chris]: Our Pack baby. [Tim]: Our Pack. Yes. I do believe in giving back. And so I do give quite a bit back just because I have seen the policy world. I am a policy wonk. I have you know as…I want to make sure that our housing rights are protected. And you know yours and my jobs are…you know we're not impacted every day and I see that. So I want to make sure that we give back. [Chris]: Well you know what Tim is a former Our Pact chair. I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your contribution. [Tim]: Of course. [Chris]: You did everything that Our Pact does. So what made you go out and start your own brokerage? How did you get back into residential? [Tim]: So I work with a lot of international clients. You know, the good thing about having a dip or diversifying in the real estate world, you know, when I jumped back into commercial I also started working with a lot of international clients and global clients.  And so you know our firm is a little unique. Most or our agents actually are bilingual. They do speak more than 1 language in our firm which is nice just because we do cater to a whole different demographics of clients at times. And we can help them.  So when I started working with a lot of international clients they weren't really affected a lot by the recession. So they were able to work with a lot more investment properties and stuff like that. So when I started coming back into the residential world they were looking for commercial and then they were looking for something to buy on the residential side. So I kind of put my foot back in and it was fun. I started my own firm because I wanted to have a little bit more flexibility you know. Back in the day I would have said that it was because of commissions but looking at it now as a broker you don't really make that much money. You…There is a lot more headache. But I wanted to… [Chris]: A headache [inaudible] changes [laughter]. Yeah. [Tim]: But I did want the autonomy. So I started the firm and ever since I did it has been going ever since out. You know there is a lot of changes going on in the industry and I hate the word “disruptor”, but there is a lot of change going on. But I think at the end of the day if you service your clients and you take care of your clients that's why they have always been with me and you know I think they will always come back. [Nathan]: A [censored] men to that. [laughter] [Tim]: Yeah so I just… [Christian]: Nathan said the first F bomb in the day. Ladies and gentlemen Nathan [censored]… [Nathan]: Well you know how I feel about that so you know you don't need a big name, you don't need a gigantic flag, you don't need to have all the tech in the world. Just need to take care of people.  [Tim]: Yeah absolutely. And you know in that thing that is you know going to independence or working in a mega firm there is always pros and cons. But people always go…they go back to you. They back to Nathan White because they know Nathan White is in real estate. They go back to Christopher because they know that Christopher is in real estate.  So I think that if you know…and that is what I try to teach my agents like “You guys can leave me any day, I mean I have to sign your release forms if you decide to leave tomorrow or today or within the hour. You know, I hope that you know, during the time that you were with me that you were able to build your own brand so they come back to you for ever and ever and ever for real estate purposes. And if you can't than tie yourselves with…if you're not gonna be in real estate than tie yourself with a referral company and make some money that way”.  There are so many different avenues in making money in real estate. And I have a top agent, a top agent in my office. I call her top just because she doesn't sell real estate. She refers. And it's funny because she works for a company that does a lot of relocations and if they don't offer real packages she's like “Where are you moving? I know where you're moving to. Let me find you an agent”. And she just collects a referral check all day long. And so in my world that's a top agent who doesn't sell real estate but is able to collect and really utilize her license. But it's funny how…I know when the checks come in. And I am like “These are yours”. I know exactly whose check it is. It's fun.  [Nathan]: So Tim I always like to ask some fun questions and I typically pluck them out of a great book by Tim Ferriss. [Tim]: So you're the one? [Nathan]: Yeah I am the one right. Tim Ferriss wrote a great book called “Tribe of mentors”. He asked everybody the same questions and I always like to ask guests a few of these questions that he asked people. So I will fire away with the first one. If you could have a gigantic billboard anywhere with anything on it? What would it say?  [Tim]: A billboard with anything that I want on it? [Nathan]: Yeah what would that message be? [Tim]: [laughter] I think people very close to me would say…It would probably say “Leave me alone”.  [Nathan]: Really [laughter]. That's great. [Chris]: Tim Hur wants to be left alone.  [Tim]: You know when I am at home and I want to be by myself, I want to be by myself but you know you don't get that luxury as a broker and working with international clients. We're always…We're always doing something but you know just having the time alone to be like “Give me my 15 minutes”.  You know I try to turn off my phone when I am working out just because I am like “That's my 1 hour that I have, don't have to worry about clients. You can wait”. But yeah I think that's…you know that was the first thing that popped into my head. [Nathan]: That is fantastic. Might be the best answer that we've gotten for that one yet. I don't know. Leave me alone. [Tim]: I think that's the most truthful one you could get on the show. Right? [Nathan]: Yes and I appreciate that. So... [Chris]: That's good. [Nathan]: So number 2, what are some bad recommendations you hear in our profession? What are bad recommendations you hear all the time? [Tim]: Bad recommendations. You know I don't think anything is ever a bad recommendation. I think you just...you're just…you're just very misguided, right. You just…people don't realize all the ins and outs of how difficult it is to buy and sell a home.  Recommendations…Gosh I hear that every day. I hear bad recommendations every day. I will say that rather than giving examples you can probably tell by my face. My partner says that I have facial trots. And I can't hide it anymore. So when I hear something really weird or wonky my face just turns. So you know I don't say anything. You just kind of tell from my face. [Chris]: You just see the reaction.  [Tim]: You see the reaction. So I have been told that I need to really control my facial [laughter]… [Christian]: Start doing Botox. Just numb your face. [Chris]: Yeah it will tone it all down. Just nothing to worry. [Tim]: Yeah just gotta tone it down. That's probably you know sort of recommendations I hear all the time. I will tell you that. Just kind of be careful of that. [Nathan]: Got you. So 3rd one. What is a book that greatly influenced your life?  [Tim]: A book that greatly influenced…Who reads books? OK. [Nathan]: Audible counts. [Tim]: Yes I am a bad millennial. I like to have something in my hands. No this is… [Nathan]: I am a book nerd so… [Tim]: Oh you're a book nerd. You know I am a big fan of the Chronicles of Narnia and I do like reading a lot of of very you know I don't want to say Christiany but you know it's very interesting reads. You know things that are kind of up in the air and Scrutiny…One of my favorite books is the Scrutiny of Letters. It was…I re-read that book not long ago and it's a very good book. I would recommend it. [Christian]: Allegory. Allegory story. [Tim]: Yeah. I just like the title too. I mean Scrutiny of Letters. It's kind of like…you know. [Nathan]: I will tell you I like books. I do have to do a quick plug. For those that do listen and like to know what book…Right now I am reading a book called Men's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl. If you haven't read great lately go grab this book. It's really interesting. He was an Auschwitz survivor. If you are having or struggling with your why in your life, go read this book. It will speak to you. Great book right now. This one right here. You can't see it because you're listening but those that are recording right now can, but an awesome book. So anyway, onto that. Well best answer ever. Leave me alone. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. [Tim]: [laughter]. [Christian]: I have a quick question as we're wrapping up here. So you own your own brokerage. So you're a managing agent. So are you selling real estate yourself? [Tim]: I am. I am a compete broker.  [Christian]: OK. So you're doing that [inaudible]. Whatever. We know what you mean. You're still involved in NAR? [Tim]: I am. [Christian]: Right you're still committee. So what's…What's…I mean I don't know how you find time for all of that. But what's kind of your next move? [Tim]: Mainly. [Christian]: Because of your involvement in the association. [Tim]: You know in this…as long as you can constantly serve and you know I don't mean that there is always ways to always get involved. You know I am a big Our Pack guy. I am a big global guy. Big diversity guy. You put your hands in a lot of business.  But the thing as…the important thing rather than what I want to do or what I see myself in 5 years with what the realtor world is really more of “Let's get everyone else involved too”. I think that's just really important on a local level. State level. International level. You know we hear all these different stories about “The realtor committee doesn't represent me” or certain things, “Certain communities don't represent me well”. We can find you a mission. We can find you a way to get involved. And I think that's the really more important story than trying to find where I really need to be plugged in the next life. We can all…We're all…We're realtors. We're selling real estate. We can bounce around. We can serve wherever we're asked. [Christian]: Yeah. Do you…Do you believe that non realtor, non-members have an ability to serve and make an impact without being a member of the NAR. Is there…is there diversity in that or… [Tim]: Yeah, so actually there's 4 multicultural associations that NAR recognizes rather. There is the agency of real estate association of America. There is a national association in… [Christian]: ARIA.  [Tim]: Yes ARIA. There is the national association of Gay and Lesbian in Real Estate professionals. NAGLREP. And National association of real estate brokers for the black community and the national association of real estate…of Hispanic real estate professional. NAHREP. So you know just because you're a realtor…You know if you're not a realtor and you want to get involved with some of our multicultural associations that's where to go.  And so they make an impact on their own communities itself. So yeah you don't have to be a realtor. We would always encourage you to be one but if you want to be one. But even if you're a part time or…you can still make an impact because there is so much to do in our world. And yes we don't have…There's only 24 hours in a day and we don't have a lot of time but you know there is always…You can shrug along and you can find something to do.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree more Tim. Thank you so much for joining us today. We got a lot of really great nuggets both on the fair housing side, both on your background and getting involved. For anybody who wants to reach out how can they find you? [Tim]: You can find me again…My name is really easy just think of the fictional American character of Charles Helson and think of Tim Hur. Other than that you can find me on Facebook. I am easily available on social media all summer. It's always nice when you get hacked and someone makes a fake profile of you which I found very recently but yeah you can't miss me.  But you can find me…the easiest way is just google me and find me. If you don't google yourself and do a vanity search of yourself I highly recommend it. [Chris]: Definitely. Awesome. Everybody thank you so much for tuning in for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Catch us back next week as we celebrate our 50th anniversary…not anniversary. Our 50th episode.  [Tim]: Congrats you guys. [Chris]: Could be a long year. But thank you Tim for joining us. Everybody if you haven't go to rtrepodcast.com. Put in your email and name in the little subscription form and be alerted every time an episode drops. So you can hear great nuggets from guys like Tim Hur. Thank you and we'll see you next Monday.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Today Nathan throws out a surprise topic for us to discuss. We talk about the questions people should ask when determining whether a brokerage is for them or not. We want to know what you love best about your brokerage. In the comments tell us what your favorite part is! RTRE_Ep_48  Audio length 29:24 RTRE 48 – What to Ask When Choosing a Brokerage [music] [Chris]:Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with Nathan White and Christian Harris. Guys what's going on guys? [Nathan]: Hey what's happening? I am trying to stay warm in the polar vortex here but it's only one day people so don't panic, it's not a week long. [Nathan]: How cold is it there right now? [Christian]: It's about 7 degrees. It's the end of January we're recording this.  [Chris]: It's gone up a little bit since we talked last. Our entire state shut down for a little bit of rain so Georgia is closed now [laughter]. [Nathan]: And if it even gets flurries in Georgia it's like the apocalypse like it's hysterical. [Chris]: Well I mean no joke we are 5 years to the date from Snowmageddon. Like the time hop came up on Facebook “5 years to the date from Snowmageddon today”. And last time that happened I ended up having to walk 11 miles on icy roads back to the house because my car wasn't getting me there. So…Yeah I mean Georgia does not know how to deal with that stuff. [Christian]: It's legit. [Nathan]: Like 2 inches of snow or just a little ice? [Chris]: It wasn't 2 inches but it was like a maybe a quarter inch of snow on top of an inch of ice.  [Christian]: Ice will…Ice will mess up your day so… [Chris]: Yeah ice did it.  [Nathan]: When you were talking about ice I saw that you were talking about something. [Chris]: No yeah so… [Nathan]: What are we gonna talk about? [Chris]: Nate is gonna surprise us with today's topic. [Nathan]:[censored]. [Chris]: Nate what are we talking about today? [Nathan]: So you know we've talked about this before but I am gonna go to the…you know we're in a public group. I think all 3 of us are on it. The…the Inman coast to coast and somebody earlier this week posted again about how to choose a brokerage. And I want to say maybe it was Tanya or somebody. I forget who put the…the questions to ask out there.  But did you guys see that about an agent going to choosing a brokerage? Because some of this I agree with, some I don't agree with at all so I thought it might be good to go back and talk a little bit more about this. Maybe we have some new agents since we started doing this that you know are in that struggle bus of “Hey I am stuck here” or “I don' know what to do. I didn't…I didn't choose right”. And so these questions…These questions [background noise] Whats that? Sorry. [Christian]: Did you just say struggle bus? [Nathan]: Yeah. Struggle bus. [laughter]. [Christian]: OK I just wanted to make sure I heard that right. OK. [Nathan]: Yeah so if you guys check your email I just sent you that.  [Chris]: Yeah I am looking at it right now. [Nathan]: Right so like if you look through some of this like I don't know if I agree with all of this. Of course I never agree with everything, right. [Chris]: You never agree with anything. [Christian]: You're super agreeable. What are you talking about? [Nathan]: I am so… [Chris]: You're the “Yes man”. [Nathan]: Oh my God you all are ridiculous. [laughter] [Christian]: I am…I looked over this a little bit… [Chris]: I am seeing this for the first time. Let's talk through it. [Christian]: So you're talking about…You're talking about kind of the generic agent guide to choosing brokerage that is out there? [Nathan]: Yeah. [Chris]: Yeah. We're not gonna say who it is put out by but there's a guide out there. Alright so first step in this guide research. What's this? “Pull MLS numbers for at least 3 years for the office. Volume, transaction count, map the transaction if your MLS offers that feature. Know how far from the office they are.”  I don't know. If you're a new agent, you don't have access to the MLS.  [Christian]: Yeah. So what I found in general is that whatever brokers you go to in you're quote interviewing with them they're going to spat out the stuff that makes them look best right? [Chris]: Yeah. [Christian]: So if they're agent heavy they're gonna be like “Oh we dominate the market by agent numbers”. If they're you know actually killing it in volume or, you know, gross sales that's what they're gonna…that's what they're gonna highlight.  So you know the thing is if you're a new agent how does the brokerage production help you? I mean it…it doesn't directly. Now it might indirectly because OK maybe there is a lot of experienced agents that you can shadow or piggy back on. But just because they're productive doesn't mean it will help you do yours. They're busy. You know and now they're hinting like if you have in mind “OK I am gonna do open houses.” OK you're gonna need an office that has listings , you know. Now you don't need it in there they're not here. You can call other agents and brokerages if they're willing to collaborate… [Chris]: What they do that? [Christian]: Well it's not…it's not a culturally…I don't know. Some do. You know if they have a more collaborative mind set. I mean I all about that but not…Most franchises don't have that. Might be more in the “Protect your own” mind set. So…They'd rather not do an open house rather than have someone from another broker do their open house. [Chris]: That should never happen. Not in my state. [Nathan]: Well you know here's another one on here that really tripped me up. This is a value aid and establish. “Why the office of the brokerage you're interviewing with is or isn't successful.”  How do you define success in a brokerage? [Christian]: Right what are your metrics success? [Nathan]: Right I mean. [Christian]: Numbers and profitability but you're not gonna know the profitability numbers. [Nathan]: Right. I mean you know our brokerage doesn't do a gazillion transactions but I believe the ones that we do do are very high quality. So, meaning from…you know from a client experience. So again I don't know you know if that counts or not. It's like saying “Oh I am hearing another party say look at agent reviews on yelp or Zillow”. I mean [censored] I am not interviewing like…That's not applicable to me I guess so I struggle… [Christian]: But when it comes to researching a brokerage what would you say? I mean I don't think these are super valid because they center around like on traditional like sales like…Do they do a lot of business? And that than quantifies whether they're a good brokerage which I think has nothing to do with is a good brokerage or not. Maybe.  I mean I guess you could kind of determine market saturation or market share but again as a new agent is that really gonna help you I mean unless you're in a small town and there is a dominant brokerages and a bunch of other small ones that don't do anything. I mean here in Seattle there's tons of brokerage and they all have their…they're all getting those things. They're all doing sales. You know it's not one, It's like crushing it you know. [Chris]: Well I think it all depends because everybody's definition of success in real estate is different.  [Christian]: Yeah. [Chris]: You know I was speaking to one of my agents about this the other day because as we bring in agents you know depending upon where they are in their life cycle they may have different goals. Like some of our agents are retired from one career. Do we expect that those agents are going to hustle and grind and built a massive business working hundreds of hours every month just for a few years? Probably not. You know those people are probably getting into this to do a few transactions a year, have a place to come, learn, hang out, interact with people and have fun.  And then we have some other people that are getting into this for the exact reason I just mentioned. They want to grow something big. And it's not our job as the brokerage to define what that success is. That's up to them. Our goal is to provide the infrastructure, the culture, the support necessary for them to build what they want to build. At least that's my philosophy on it and you know…go ahead. [Christian]: Yeah I mean that's a good point is that there's not one definition of success as an agent. You know there's gonna be the younger people that don't have family and nothing better to do but grind it out for 80 hours a week. Other ones that are mostly, you know, full time, stay at home parents or something that are gonna do occasional job, you know. [Chris]: Absolutely. So this question that they ask in here, this bullet point I think is excellent which is “Ask the broker about his or her story as an agent, team lead, sales manager or broker owner. To what do they attribute their success? And you want to under…you want to uncover his or her core beliefs about what makes a successful agent”.  I think that is an excellent point. When you're…when you're looking for finding out what firm you want to work for it's gonna be the team of people that you're surrounding yourself with and knowing their core values. If they're not transparent about it. If they're transparent about it you should know their core values you know within you know the first round of interviews with them. But if they're not asking questions like this would be fantastic as an agent looking to find a right…a different brokerage.  [Nathan]: Yeah I agree. That's…That's a helpful question in there. Some of the ones like I said I struggled with. That one is good. I was talking to somebody the other day and they said “What about getting this person to come in and be a manager”. And I was like “Yeah but the problem with them managing is they don't actually have any history”.  I have a big struggle on my struggle bus that there Mr. Harris [laughter] for people who coach or who lead that don't have any history or is very minimal. And so how do you…Say somebody is running this office or brokerage X and they go in and they're recruiting and you ask them you know “How's your history” and they go “Well you know I stopped selling 10 years ago now I just coach”.  I kind of look at somebody like [censored]. Like that's not even relevant now. 10 years I mean that's like 100 years in real estate world so I don't think you would be helpful. I think you have to be current and I think you need to be somewhat of a producing broker to a degree or one that is heavily involved with their agents' development and still maybe…I don't know you guys would probably tell me I am wrong since I am the agent you all are the brokers but you know you only have to do a couple transactions a year just to stay fresh I would feel like. But to tune out I think it would be a mistake.  [Christian]: Yeah I think that's kind of a good point in regards to like I was listening to…I had something in Inman Connects New York livestream this morning and someone was talking about the difference between the focus of the brokerage and the agent or specifically in that context the team. And the brokerage model, traditional brokerage model is head count. They focus solely on head count.  Now you may do that through you know training or some other low thing to lure agents in. But [cough] I think part of the brokerage responsibility is when you're interviewing an agent flashing out “What are your goals for the expectations? Can we match that?” Or you know. Now maybe most brokerages don't care. We're smaller so I think we can kind of customize or at least make sure it's gonna be a good fit. Because one of these questions in here is ask if you can ride along, you know basically shadow an experienced agent. Because I mean that's a great way for a new agent to learn.  Now Chris I know you have like a required mentor program which is great but that's one of the…as many awesome things to see on offers that's one of our weak spots is that we're not huge and so we don't have a lot of agents that can you know that have enough business to be able to “Hey we have a new agent can they shadow you on your listing today?” Like… [Chris]: It took us a while to get to that. [Christian]: Yeah it's gonna take a while. [Chris]: Yeah.  [Christian]: But I think that's good because I did…the one agent I had lost and you know there's nothing I could have really done about it is just the nature of how big we are was they wanted to, you know, shadow someone's business. Someone who is you know doing a lot of business. And we just don't have a ton of agents doing you know huge amounts of business everyday. You know so they left so they can mentor under someone who was. And I totally get that, you know. Hopefully it won't get to the pace where, you know, that won't be an issue. But we're small, new and scrappy so you know your strengths and you know your weaknesses. [Chris]: Yeah I think that I saw here a description of the office culture, head count, tenure of the agents, breaking it down into head count and turning it over rate, the agent or broker's involvement in the local, regional NAR leadership. The broker agents' involvement in state and national associations, outside or NAR and the broker and agent involvement in local community school boards, charities.  I think that's a pretty good description of an office. Like if you can as a broker owner…If I am sitting down having a conversation with somebody these are things that I know and can recite you know in my sleep about who is doing what because these are things that we promote. But, you know, having an office that encourages involvement…A lot of offices don't do it maybe because they're afraid that when they put their agents around other agents the other agents are gonna try and recruit them.  That's not necessarily the case because there are a lot of agents that I get around that I don't want to recruit. Being in those positions. But it's still important that when we're in this industry that we do our best to support our industry and that when we are serving our communities we are doing the best to support our communities through local charities and organizations.  So having a company that supports that stuff goes to describe how their culture operates and it puts the priorities in perspective you know and just know that with turnover rate it's not always…Sometimes that needs a description. Because for us right now we're releasing agents 2 to 1 because we have become a lot more selective in who we are hiring than who we are letting go. We are letting a lot of licenses laps that are non-performers and that's one of the reasons that our productivity has gone from like 300k per person to like 1.1 million per person. So there are other things in there that need to be picked and taken into account. [Christian]: Yeah and I would say that that focus on culture is because big I mean it's really easy to quantify your split or you [cough] some of these other things that agents tend to focus on like how much money are they gonna be taking home. Now what that doesn't take into account is well “Is the brokerage is gonna support me? Am I gonna flourish there? I am I gonna hate it when I am working around. Am I gonna hate doing the work you know into the office you know. Are you gonna be part of something bigger that you're on board with?”  And I think all that closely ties into like the brand of the brokerage. What are they known for? Are they involved? Do they encourage agents involvement? And really if you hone that as a brokerage and you have a line with your agents and that's what they're drawn to you're not gonna be afraid of losing them because a big franchise down the road that doesn't have, you know, a healthy culture like that or doesn't…Isn't known for something other than name recognition of their franchise. Like there's nothing there for them. Like they're gonna love who they're asked you know what you provide. You know it's really hard to quantify that cultural experience, that feeling of satisfaction of knowing “Doing what I am doing, I am involved, I am helping, I am part of the listing and not just you know a number on the spreadsheet”. [Chris]: Absolutely.  [Nathan]: Well you know if you look at this document I mean it's great but I really think they could have skipped all the way to the bottom and point 4 like the bullet points there I think is perfect. “Do you fully understand what a brokerage is offering here?”. What I find most agents even when they switch to another one still don't understand what they're getting offered. “Do you trust the broker?” You would be working with them. I think that's important. “Do the claims of the brand line up with everything that is isn't offered to agents and clients.” “Do the principals and beliefs align with those of brokers and managers?” That's huge. “Does the brokerage provide what you need now in the future and for the development?” Like to me that sums up the only questions you need to answer almost but above the other stuff. Yeah. [Christian]: And I think it kind of makes sense. I mean I think it could be more concise but I mean those are kind of the…These are bottom line what you wanna make sure you're getting and all the questions up above will help you get to those answers.  [Nathan]: Right I mean those are the…That's the guts of my struggle bus for those people. I…And the reason I say like when you don't want people to make a switch…I've got a colleague who just made switch to another brokerage. And when she left her original one she thought you know  “Hey you know I understand everything”.  She went to the new one and 6 months down the road she went “I didn't really understand the numbers”. And I was like…you know I don't want to use her name but “Hey Sussie how did you not of all people”. Like I expected her to really understand the numbers and she didn't. I think she actually might have paid more at the new brokerage that she went to. You know because she originally left brokerage number 1 because her fees were so high. She goes the second one. Didn't know the math well and ended up paying more.  [Chris]: Sure. [Christian]: Well I think that tied into the “Do you trust the brokerage”. I had an agent who…who I think had made up her mind you know that she was gonna leave. You know it implements new monthly fee because we're losing money on not producing brokers…not producing agents. And I am like “Kate you may think that you're gonna pay less over here but let's talk about this”.  And you know after talking about it and she talks to some other people about “Oh I didn't realize that I had to be a member of the NAR which is another $600 every…” whatever, “I didn't realize that they also did desk fee” and blah blah blah and than I was like “OK you actually have it really good here”.  You know and so…and maybe you know putting some of that back on media and brokerage. Can you get the value there and so she thought she would find it somewhere else. But half the time you know they end up leaving thinking the grass is greener. And than “Oh hey they were sold at fallen stolen goods” you know. You don't realize it until after you leave. After you go somewhere else.  [Nathan]: Right. Right they don't understand it. [Chris]: I got that from a couple of agents. They left and now they want to come back and they were on like one of our old legacy plans and they don't get that option anymore. And that they're like “Oh [laughter] wow this is gonna cost me more?”. Like “Yeah yeah we're doing a lot more now. You had it good. You lost”. So I mean that's another thing for agents. If you're thinking about making a move see what your broker can do.  If you're moving…there was an article that came out a little while ago about why agents make a move. And a lot of brokers think that number 1 is because of the cost. But it's not. I think one of the number 1 reasons is the number 1 and number 2 but it was “Is the broker in their corner? Does the broker have their back?” And then the other one was “What is the culture like at the office?” Because if a lot of…for the most part brokers are gonna make relatively smaller amounts of money. And it's all gonna depend on what they're offering and what their expenses are but you know we're gonna make our profit margin. Hopefully. That's the goal. And if… [Christian]: Wait you're profitable? That must be nice [laughter]. [Chris]: We're investing a lot of it back into the company. But we are making what we need to be making off of them so that we can invest it back into the company and our agents see that but the second thing is culture. Are you working in an environment that you feel that you have the people around you supporting you?  And those 2 were the biggest reasons that agents make jumps. It's not because of the desk fees. It's not because of the NAR fees. It's not because of the monthly fees. Sometimes it is but usually that's when we see people going from very high splits to something that is a little bit more along the lines of the Indie broker margin. Kind of the Indie broker model. Where we have a little bit more flexibility there and we lose the franchise fees. But other than that it's culture and is “Does the broker have my back? Is the office there to support me?” [Christian]: I definitely have to agree with that. I think a lot of agents lead with the cost but I mean in the grand scheme of things I mean there's not…If you're productive I mean what you're gonna end up paying isn't that different over you know a year. You know but it does come down to that culture and that…what was that other thing you said? [Chris]: Culture and support. [Christian]: Culture and? Support yes. Yeah that's huge because I have had agents that come over you know who come over because they're like “How available are you? I can't get a hold of my broker when I have questions for 2 days.” And I am like “That's ridiculous. What are they doing? It's their job”. [laughter]  You know and so it being smaller and not having so many agents and you seeing my primary job and been in the office to support agents you know I mean that's big you know. And just a tip. If you had an office you're not really sure what their culture is, if you want to get a good gage of it pay attention to how they respond when an agent leaves. If they're nasty and two faced get out of there. Get out of that office.  And that was my first office. Like day to day it was OK. It wasn't openly hostile but as soon as you know…Someone who you know agent X was quote “friends” with and helping out one day and they left and the next day they're “Oh that person I knew blah blah blah they're terrible”. And you're gonna be like “What aren't we all in this together? What's this brand loyalty to a franchise that doesn't have your back? Like what do you care as an agent whether or not another agent left?” Like you know like they're being personally, like a personal slide against you know the agent that another agent left.  [Nathan]: Man the colleague that I was talking about earlier when she left her original team you know they went [laughter] Death Con 4 on her. I was like “You don't want to be in a place like that”. Like… [Christian]: It shows your true colors either as an agent or you know as…Like if I hear that as a broker I squash that. I am like “No we are collaborative, we are all on this together. I want what's best for them and if they feel going to another brokerage gives them what they need he no pep talk. I want to support them in there”.  [Nathan]: That makes me think of Tracey Chambers, who is my first team lead. I was…the team lead at the office at Callow Aims [phonetics] and I will applaud her. When I told her I was leaving she said “Nathan I wish you all the best and if you ever want to come back here know the door is always opened and I will welcome you with open arms and if you have any questions feel free to call me”. I still call her. She was awesome and that tells you a lot about her.  [Christian]: And speaks to character and that's what's gonna be the biggest differentiator and the difference between agents. It's not skills, not experience, it's character. Are you gonna do the right thing? [Nathan]: I don't know if we answered any questions actually on this list of things. But I think it's important to talk about again from just an agent perspective because again as a new agent and maybe even within the first year or 2 you just don't know all the questions to ask. And it's…and a lot of it is ambiguous because you can't put value on certain things.  [Christian]: Yeah I think it's a good starting point. I mean I have had one agent who came in with questions and I loved it. You know it would be like “Hey these are some questions I have” and I think they kind of got them offline or you know another brokerage they were interviewing or something. And I am basically like “That question doesn't matter because of this. This question is irrelevant because of that. That's a good question. Let's talk about it.”  You know. So it could be a good place to start but like you said as a new agent you're not really sure what you need to be asking. What questions mater or not. [Chris]: Yeah so I mean we…I think the last time we talked about you know choosing a brokerage and how the brokerage works. That was like early early last year, right around when we just launched. [Nathan]: First 5 episodes maybe. [Chris]: Yeah yeah something like that but I think regardless of where you are in your career if you are new or if you are a seasoned veteran I think the message is you need to understand if there is…if your office is toxic, if your office is not fun to work in, if your leadership is undermining management, if your…if you're not receiving the right support the message is there are brokers out there where that does not exist.  There are brokerages that do have proper support, that do have a good culture and that are fun to work at. And I think that a lot of the brokers who have quotas that they need to meet on the recruiting side I think that those…their attention is in the wrong place and that the broker owner does not have enough time to dedicate to the support of the office.  So that's my message. If you're in a position where you're not sure what's gonna happen with your career, if you're not happy with the people that you're working with my message is just go out and try and meet a few brokers because there are places that do exist where that's not a problem. [Christian]: Yeah. [Nathan]: Yeah I mean I agree. That sums it up about as good as you can get. If you got questions you know what you can do? Email us. We'll answer them [laughter]. [Christian]: I am interested and see what questions…you know…Yeah comments, you know. Leave comments. What are the questions? You know what are the questions that agents should be asking or brokerages should be asking to their agents to make sure it's a good fit?  [Chris]: And email us and tell us what you think about your brokerage. Why is your brokerage a great place to work? I think that… [Christian]: Yeah that's good. [Chris]: What do you like most about your brokerage? We don't want to hear the bad things. We hear the bad things all the time. Let us know what you think is the best part about your brokerage? I think that just about sums it up for this episode of re:Think Real Estate. Thank you so much for tuning in for this impromptu topic brought you by Nate. Thank you Nate. We'll catch you next week.  [music] [Chris]:  Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Now that we're a few weeks into the new year it's time to evaluate our progress. Are we still on target with our goals? Are we busy or are we moving the needle? Join today's discussion and share your bad habits below. Episode Transcript RTRE_Ep_47  Audio length 22:49 RTRE 47 – Are You Busy or Productive? [music] [Chris] Welcome to re:Think Real Estate, your educational and hopefully entertaining source for all things real estate, business, news and tech.  [Christian]: I am Christian Harris in Seattle, Washington. [Nathan]: Hi, I am Nathan White in Columbus, Ohio. [Chris]: And I am Chris Lazarus in Atlanta, Georgia. Thanks for tuning in.  [music] [Chris]: Everybody and welcome back to re:Think Real Estate. I am Chris Lazarus here with my faithful hosts Nathan White and Christian Harris out of Columbus, Ohio and Seattle, Washington respectively. Thank you so much for tuning in. It is a still relatively early in 2019 and we were just talking about you know this is right around the time some people start dropping off their new years' resolution. So I hope…I know it's not anybody in our audience [laughter] but now we start to get in the busy time of year and it's that definition of busy.  What is busy? Is it…Is it necessarily productive or is busy making us money or is busy just the thing that we have to be doing? Because I don't know about you all but picking up my thumb that's like my thing. If I am not doing something right now I start to itch. Like I find myself sitting down sometimes and maybe I will be waiting on somebody for a business meeting and I have to cognitively think like actively think and just saying “You know what I should learn to comfortable just sitting and waiting” and it's something that is really weird. But when I am in that mode I can actually think about what needs to be done and I think that sometimes when we're busy we don't always do that.  So today we're gonna be talking about what the difference is between being busy and being productive. Christian? You're a broker owner, you're starting up a new company. You're back into selling. What…like how are you challenged with being busy versus how productive is your busy time? [Christian]: So you know the funny thing is and I don't think this is an experience unique to me but when I am talking with other agents or just people in general you know the small talk is you know “How are things going? How are you doing?” And the response 95% of the time is “I am so busy, so busy so much going on”. You know, and I think subconsciously we kind of wear that as a badge of honor like “I am so important that I am busy all the time”. At least in real estate. You know “I am just scrambling around because I got so much work”.  But the question really is “Is busyness a badge of honor or is that more a sign of no you're just ineffective in what you do and how you spend your time?” Which is why I find this conversation so interesting because being productive is way different than just being, busy you know. I can be busy and feel like I am getting stuff done by checking off my 2000 emails but you're not actually moving the ball forward. You're not actually accomplishing goals versus “I've got my dedicated time to do this one task and I am focused on, that's the only thing I am doing”.  You know, you can elude to the distractive nature of technology and things these days and make a whole episode on that. But you know I feel that same pull. I am older so and I like to say I am bilingual you know I grew up in a day before the internet and so I remember doing book reports with books you know and card catalogs as the research tools and that sort of stuff you know. [Chris]: You're not that old. I still had that. [Christian]: Yeah I am just saying you know. I remember a day before that and then in my 20s you know adopted technology as in internet and tan smartphones came online and what now.  [Nathan]: I was using an Atticus. [Christian]: And so I remember the times of… [Chris]: Hang on Nate did you just say you were using an Atticus? [Nathan]: Yeah Atticus. I am the old one out of the group [laughter]. [Christian]: Only by a couple of years. But the point is I feel that pull too to like never have down time. To always be doing something, always be stimulated with input. And usually that's in the form of I am sitting there like you said in the doctor's office and I feel the draw. Uncontrolled, my hand reaching my pocket pull out my phone and just mindlessly check Facebook or Instagram or emails like we can allow yourself some time to like reflect and think and ponder which we don't do a lot so we tend to live our lives in a stimulated anxious responsive posture. Instead of proactive duffle posture. [Chris]: Definitely. [Christian]: You know there is a lot in that but I think the business plays into that. [Chris]: So Nate obviously you've shared with the audience that you suffer from ADHD. So is busyness a good thing for you or does that impede your productivity? Like what's the difference between being busy and being productive for you? [Nathan]: Yeah I mean that is the million-dollar question right. I can be busy all the time. But I am not producing results.  [Chris]: Yeah you're good at that. [Nathan]: Yeah. So for me it's about…For me personally again it's about having a very regimented schedule. I mean those that are friends with me on Facebook whatever they're like…I actually had someone the other day saying “I don't know how you do it day in and day out like you check into the gym at 5 a.m.” Like I live and die by a schedule.  For me to get a result or to have production right productivity instead of me spinning my wheels getting around on Facebook and [censored] around and all that [censored] I have to be very regimented, right. Which means when I get to the offices one if it's quiet and the first thing I don't do is I don't get on Facebook right. I have an order to the way I do things because once I get into those realms if you would than I would squirrel.  [Chris]: Rabbit hole. [Nathan]: Yeah squirrel I am all over the place. So I have to be very regimented in what I do. And I will tell you like if I get out of that rhythm it sucks. But when I am in it I am in it. And man I tell you what, I feel great. And so I think you can tell as an agent broker whatever you are you don't have to have ADHD but you can follow…just have…I don't know kind of a purpose drill in life. Have a purpose to what you're doing. You see a lot of the people they get in and then they get on Facebook and then they're looking at their messages and they're here and they're there but they're busy but they're not producing any results.  So I…the way you quantify that to me is did…You know I set a goal list. I have to have a check list. And once I check things off it feels great. I perpetually add to that list. But, you know, in our world how do we judge our productivity? Dollars and sales right? I mean in the restaurant industry they used to say “Sales cure all”. And in our industry I think that's applicable right.  How productive are you? You know you have the agent that says “Oh I was such a great year I did a million dollars”. For them maybe it's great. You have the other ones that say “Hey I did 42 sides or 8 million dollars”. You know I think there's a big difference of who is productive and who is not. And I am giving to each his own. I am not trying to say that if you did a million dollars in 3 sides or whatever you weren't productive but let's be honest you probably weren't. [laughter] So… [Chris]: Well I mean you're right you probably weren't because the average full time realtors are doing 11 sides a year. [Nathan]: Is it 11? [Chris]: I think last I heard. [Nathan]: That is so many. [Christian]: That sounds high. [Nathan]: That sounds high. I thought it was like 6.6 full time. [Chris]: I think the average full time relator not the average realtor. [Nathan]: Oh yeah the average full time I get it.  [Chris]: The average person who makes a career out of it is doing about 11 sides. Not 11 transactions but 11 sides.  [Nathan]: Remember too we are realtors so what do we like to be about? All about being a realtor right. I mean God Almighty you know Facebook all watch it “#realtorlife #showingthistoday”. [Chris]: “#blast” [Nathan]: Yeah like it's like…Like it's all about you know last episode, right, we were talking about being client centric. I mean hell that's all about just being a realtor right. It drives me [censored] crazy. Like #realtor I am like listen our life isn't that bad right. What we do… [Chris]: I think what Christian just said a few moments ago is just spot on. It's about feeling important. People like feeling important and a lot of people in real estate are like “I am a real estate agent. I can help you with the biggest financial transaction of your life. I am so important”. And rather than focusing on going out and getting business and building a business they're focusing on being a realtor.  I had an agent that worked with me for a little while. It was a young kid just starting out. And we quickly realized that he was in love with the idea of being successful more that he was willing to work at being successful. And that is a big difference because you can be really busy and be in love with the idea of being successful. You know go to a show room and take picture with a Bentley and you know have your girlfriend modelling in your Instagram account. It really…But if it doesn't come down to you actually making money it doesn't really exist.  So I think that a big thing is feeling important and Christian hit the nail in the head with that. And people can be busy to feel important. That doesn't mean they're productive. That doesn't mean they're working on their business. So… [Nathan]: Yeah it takes me about the time one time I…another agent we were talking We did not know each other. We had met and I said “Oh you're a real estate agent?” she said “Sure I sure am?”. And I said “How did it go last year?” She said “It was great, I closed 4 houses.” [laughter] And I laughed and I said “You're not really an agent.” She got really mad. [Christian]: Can't imagine why. [Nathan]: [laughter] But again I go back to what you said about what Christian just said. It wasn't about…I don't know, I didn't feel any passion to what she was doing. You know I think those of us who really enjoy what we do we do it because we are passionate about it. Not because we love houses or watch HDTV or anything of that [censored]. Like we love what we do. We love…you know there is that narcissistic side again of you know part of it. But there's also the feeling of just helping somebody buy their home that is very rewarding. And so I don't know I could go preach on a lot of different angles on it.  [Chris]: I couldn't agree more. Now I think we kind of got the understanding for the audience of what is the difference between being busy and productive. So how do we focus on being productive with our time? How do we focus on not dealing with the busy work? Because there is about 20% of our daily activities that are gonna result in about 80% of our business. The parietal principal works in that way. So how do we take that 20% and be extremely productive in that? So that it is not really blowing out of proportion or taken away from the other aspects of our business? [Nathan]: How do we…? Are you asking how we measure like…our productivity? [Chris]: How do we focus? How do we not deal with the busy work? [Christian]: There's also all sorts of tactics on focusing. We've had several opportunities on it but I think it is good to kind of go over some of the basic stuff because you know even maybe in super organizing systems like think you know “I am efficient with my time” I get distracted you know in real estate you've got your phone blowing up in fires. You have that put out and you know  ”I am trying to time block to get this project done and the phone won't stop ringing”. And you know… So it could be very challenging but I think kind of like you know quote “new year's resolution” you just gotta if you follow the horse you gotta make it on keep going. Remind yourself “OK I need to turn off the technology and just be self-aware of like the things that are drawing your attention away from actually being on a state to focus on one thing at a time.” You know don't buy into this like “I can multitask and I can have my social media up while I am into MLS and while I am drafting an email and working onto the project”. You're not gonna get anything done and you're gonna be super stressed out.  [Nathan]: Multitasking is [censored] people. Multitasking is for people that can't focus on one thing at a time and complete it. So don't multitask. Get it done. Sorry I get really weird about that. [Christian]: Alright there you go. [Nathan]: Yes.  [Christian]: You said it.  [Chris]: You have no compassion for it. [Nathan]: Yes I can't stand people saying “I am multitasking”. No you have the inability to focus on one item specifically that's what that is. That is 100% what that is. [Christian]: That's a lack of discipline. [Nathan]: Yes. There are a million things to…that you can use in tools and resources. Again just daily habits, you know, goals. Writing goals and not looking at them a year later but looking at them daily. Periodically or whatever it is. I mean. Or you can be really anal like me and have a check list.  [Christian]: Nathan you're making me feel bad because you know that's illuminous stuff but I don't do it all the time. You're hurting my inner child. [Chris]: Yeah but…Nate how is that CRM going? [Nathan]: [laughter] My CRM is going horrible. Why? Because I didn't put a date on it. I know it. I own it. [Christian]: What's your date? Give me a date now.  [Nathan]: I have not…I don't have one yet. [Christian]: What's your calendar? Do it now. [Nathan]: I don't have one yet. I probably…I am actually. [Chris]: There's a couple…OK getting back on track I think there is a couple of things that work for me in trying to aim and being more productive. One is, I don't take on more than I can handle at any given time. [Christian]: How do you know what you can handle? [Chris]: Huh? [Christian]: How do you know what you can handle? [Chris]: Trial and error.  [Christian]: OK. [Chris]: When I realize that I am not spending enough time with the family and some of the projects that I am doing I don't see a future to, whether that be it doesn't improve the bottom line, it doesn't like it's not gonna be used, the reaction to the agent is not exactly the reaction that I thought it would have. I'll cut a project.  I don't take on too many volunteer roles. Like if I take on a new one I give one up. But when I do something I…when I changing a habit, when I am adding something into my routine, I do it one step at a time. I don't go and change my entire routine overnight. And for…you can go back over the last 3-4 months and I will talk about how I changed my entire morning routine off of what Nate did after what Obi said after Obi's show. But start small. Don't change the whole routine all at once.  If you're gonna start using a CRM you dedicate that is what you're gonna do and you just do that for you know 30 minutes a day every single day and then once you're used to doing that every single day than you add something on. But you don't say “It's 2019 I am not gonna use a CRM I am gonna call everyday, I am gonna follow up with this marketing, I am gonna do this that and the other and I am all gonna start it on January 1 and guess what it's now a few weeks in and I have dropped off the map”.  Well you dropped off the map because you have added too much to your plate. Start small than you slowly add on. And then the other thing that helps me be productive is a to-do list. Like what Nathan said. Put a checklist down. I aim for the top 3-5 things that I want to accomplish in a day. I write it down and then those are the first things I work on. So at the end of the day whatever has happened, whatever has gotten done I know that I made at least 3-5 different things that are moving the needle forward in the business every single day.  So that helps with the busy work. Because busy work comes. I got on 100 agents and it's all email all the time. Lots of administrative, lots of busy work. But I always get the productive stuff done. [Christian]: I would love to touch on what you just said because I couldn't agree more on the…because I was just the king of it for the longest time, taking on or challenging myself to something that was too big instead of thinking about it logically. So I look at it from a new agent perspective. I mean you meet a new agent. New agent says “Yeah I wanna do 7 million in sales next year” [laughter]. “OK right. Yeah right”.  We laugh now right and I would love to see it. But how about instead of saying 7 million in sales lets focus on just the first one. Right. And I think it's our human nature to set these lofty goals and then we fall short. We get discouraged and then we just quit at it right? It's OK to have a goal that is somewhat ambitious. But don't…we all know that if it's not within reach it's not worth doing. I mean myself I got a …I got a running partner, Jason Perkins here in town and we both thought about signing up for something called the Moab, 240, it's a 240 mile single loop run through in Moab, Utah, Arches national part of that whole area. 5…5 days around this thing.  I really want to do it. I like…It's on my list. And he said “Do we want to do it this year?” And I had to think through that for about 3 weeks. And as much as I wanted to say “Yes let's do it this year” I said “Eh I need another year to prepare”. You don't know how its gonna be but than it's a little more realistic. To say “I can go on and achieve that”. Maybe I could have done it this year. Maybe not. I think it probably wouldn't have happened but I rather give myself time to prepare to do some other thing. So coming from me, the guy who loves the big things, stepping back and really taking that hard look in the mirror, evaluating what your goals are I think it's huge. Don't bite off more than you can chew. [Chris]: Absolutely. That's been something major. And you to your point Nate with a new agent that's coming in saying “Oh I want to do 7 million” in even taking it a step back. Not even saying “Oh I just want to focus on that first transaction” break it down smaller. “I am gonna focus on getting 7 clients on this year”. Because if you're focusing on just getting the clients the transaction will come. But if you focus on the client you're focusing on the habits and the action items that need to be done to generate business. If you say “I want…I am gonna focus on getting a deal over the next month”. It's not specific enough. “Oh what am I gonna do to do it?” “Well if I am gonna get a deal I need…I need clients right? So why don't I just focus on getting clients and I am gonna aim from 5-7 clients this year. Then I know what my job is. And my job is to build those relationships and get in that position where somebody wants me to represent them”. The transaction will come. Whether that comes in the first 6 months or the second 6 months or the third 6 months it will come if you focus on doing the right things. That's what I got. [Nathan]: Yeah good.  [Chris]: Anything else on being productive? Guys final thoughts?  [Christian]: I don't know. What you said. I have realistic goals. Don't make them crazy. A to-do list is real easy tool and cheap. You don't need…You don't need…paper and a pen. [Chris]: Not even that. Notes apps.  [Christian]: [laughter] Yeah right. [Nathan]: I just say take it day by day. If you know you get distracted and your day goes to [censored] hey you got tomorrow. Start over. [Chris]: Absolutely start over. Don't wait. Don't set…Don't get half way through the year and say “You know what I didn't…I faltered, I am gonna wait until January 1”. Just start the next day. [Christian]: Don't wait until life is perfect and everything lines up just right because it never will. [Chris]: It's never perfect. It's never gonna be the right time. Just make little strives all the time. There's a great book. The compound effect by Darren Hardy, who talks about how making incremental efforts every day is the key to building a successful business. And I like in it to brushing your teeth. You brush your teeth once for 2 minutes, it doesn't do anything for you. But one of my good friend is a dentist. You brush your teeth twice a day everyday it's gonna prevent cavities. It's all about consistency. It's all about the small actions adding up to produce spectacular results if you stick with it. Go.  [Nathan]: So go brush your teeth people. [Chris]: Brush your teeth. [Christian]: That's how the world is conquered. A little goal at a time. [Chris]: That's how it is. Brush your teeth. Your colleagues will thank you and if you haven't already please go to re:Think Real Estate, our website which is rtrepodcast.com. Subscribe to the newsletter and you will get notified every time an episode hits the air. Go to iTunes, Google play, Spotify, leave us a great rate review even if you haven't really listened to the whole episode just give us 5 stars.  [Christian]: Yeah just do it. [Chris]: Just do it. Alright. Thank you so much for tuning in everybody. We will see you next Monday.  [music] [Chris]: Thanks for tuning in this week's episode of the re:Think Real Estate Podcast. We would love to hear your feedback so please leave us a review on iTunes. Our music is curtesy of Dan Koch K-O-C-H, whose music can be explored and licensed for use at dankoch.net. Thank you Dan. Please like, share and follow. You can find us on Facebook at Facebook.com/rethinkpodcast. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone and have a great week.  [music]  

Good Christian Virtues are hard to come by...especially these days. So, we have to hold on to the appearance of good. Even to our own detriment... Even if it means embracing trauma to oppress ourselves... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g8Gge--D-E We have to uphold the (false) image of our good Christian virtues...of the good Christian virtues of American society. I mean: that's what makes us a great nation, right? That we're good...and Christian? So, we cannot allow anything to sully that image - especially not the truth! A few weeks ago I (Fr. Jabriel) had a crazy experience. Well...in my mind it was crazy. I'll tell you about it in this episode, and you can judge the experience for yourself... Anyway... It got me reflecting on how White supremacy infects and affects the human psyche at such a deep level that we'll do incredibly strange things. Clearly, the effects of White supremacy are long-lasting. As Fr. Cayce said, it's an artificial intelligence that's supremely adaptive. The exploration we share in this episode will present another point of contention with American Christianity. And in this Easter season, I think it's critical to consider how we are going to walk in newness of life, as people of faith. So what to do with the Good Christian Virtues of White Supremacists? What do you think of the idea of celebrating White supremacy? Especially praising it in church...most especially when it's done by non-Whites? That's the discussion for our Facebook group. Are you a member? If not...click the banner and fill out the membership application. This group is a safe space for transformative dialogue across color lines. We learn, we grow... Resources for this Episode: Black Power: Our God-Given Call to Make America Great Founding Fathers and Slaveholders History of Steel Pan Music Rising Stars Youth Steel Orchestra You can watch and listen to some of that sweet pan music, here... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyl6xga5WTQ

SERMON OUTLINE Slowing down, sultanas, and small things Receiving Jesus: beginning as a Christian ‘So then… …just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord’ Receiving Jesus: continuing as a Christian ‘continue to live your lives in him… …rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.’ Living a receptive life

Have you ever felt frustrated as a Christian? So did the first disciples. Here's how they coped with it.

Part 2 of my conversation with guest Christian Douglass as we talk about the state of the book industry. I've also got the Bonehead of the Week and music from The Henry Clay People, Japandroids, The Hives and Wye Oak. Show notes: - Recorded in Beverly, Mass. - Christian: So many good books go undiscovered - Kindles and other e-readers have people reading - Attitudes towards owning music and books change as folks get older - Jay: My kids are still reading books - The debate over digital media and artist royalties rages on in music industry - Different revenue models: Amanda Palmer raised over $1 mil on Kickstarter for new album - That won't work for artists without huge followings, though - The popularity of oral histories - Crafting an oral history involves skill in selecting right quotes, telling a story - "Narrative non-fiction" is an interesting sub-genre - Bonehead of the WeekMusic:The Henry Clay People - 25 for the Rest of Our Lives Japandroids - The Nights of Wine and Roses The Hives - High School Shuffle Wye Oak - Spiral Completely Conspicuous is available through the iTunes podcast directory. Subscribe and write a review! The Henry Clay People song is from the album Twenty-Five for the Rest of Our Lives on TBD Records. Download the song for free at HenryClayPeople.com. The Japandroids song is on the album Celebration Rock on Polyvinyl Records. Download the song for free at Epitonic. The Hives song is on the album Lex Hives on Disques Hives. Download the song for free at RCRDLBL. The Wye Oak song is from the Adult Swim Singles Series. Download the song for free at Epitonic. The opening and closing theme of Completely Conspicuous is "Theme to Big F'in Pants" by Jay Breitling. Find out more about Senor Breitling at his fine music blog Clicky Clicky. Voiceover work is courtesy of James Gralian; check out his site PodGeek.