DISTARK in the mix: 01. T-Fest - Не помню 02. Scratcher - Niggas life 03. Vee Tha Rula & DAX - Sumn Serious 04. SLAVA VORONTSOV - Соус 05. Meek Mill ft. Rick Ross & Jay Z - What's Free 06. SAINt JHN - White Parents Are Gonna Hate This 07. MeeK Mill ft. Drake - Going Bad 08. Tyga ft. 2 Chainz - Hijack 09. DMNZ - Mercy 10. J-Soul - Dark Clouds 11. Ski Mask The Slump God - Faucet Failure 12. Post Malone - Wow 13. Gucci Mane - Stomp 14. Meek Mill ft. Drake - R.I.C.O. 15. Lil Wayne ft. XXXTENTACION - Don't Cry FEIDEK in the mix: 01. Lil Wayne - A Milli 02. P-Lo ft. G-Eazy - Feel Good 03. Cartel Madras - Goonda Gold 04. EST Gee ft. Future - Dead Wrong 05. Bearded Legend, Sinizter - Find Out 06. Eyez Hate U, Undagroundmane - EVOLVE 07. Scarface - Gangsta 08. D Smoke, Snoop Dogg - Gaspar Yanga 09. Tommy Genesis - men 10. SPIDER GANG ft. Wendigo, Lil Darkie - the napoleonic wars 11. A$AP Rocky - Multiply 12. Lil' Kim - Lighters Up 13. Bizarre & Hopsin - Leather Face (ft. King Gordy & Lazarus) 14. Skrillex & Noisia, josh pan - Supersonic VIP (My Existence)
Welcome to a special episode of the Solana Podcast focusing on Crypto & National Security featuring Ari Redbord (Head of Legal and Government Affairs, TRM Labs) and Sigal Mandelker (former Under Secretary of the Treasury for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence). Amira Valliani (Policy Lead, Solana Foundation) guest hosts.00:09 - Intros02:11 - Origin Story05:53 - Correspondent Banks07:37 - Why crypto resonates personally09:54 - Use cases of Crypto in humanitarian applications12:13 - Looking at the opportunity vs the risk16:06 - Typical Day at Treasury17:14 - What it takes to stop bad actors in Crypto24:53 - BitFinex Hack and Large seizures29:05 - Compliance and self-policing31:13 - Advice to other people in regulationDISCLAIMERThe information on this podcast is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only, without any express or implied warranty of any kind, including warranties of accuracy, completeness, or fitness for any particular purpose.The information contained in or provided from or through this podcast is not intended to be and does not constitute financial advice, investment advice, trading advice, or any other advice.The information on this podcast is general in nature and is not specific to you, the user or anyone else. You should not make any decision, financial, investment, trading or otherwise, based on any of the information presented on this podcast without undertaking independent due diligence and consultation with a professional broker or financial advisor. Amira (00:09):Hello and welcome to the Solana podcast. My name is Amira Valliani and I run public policy at the Solana Foundation. Today we're talking about an issue that's really been at the forefront of a lot of people's minds since war broke out in Ukraine earlier this year. And that's the topic of crypto and national security. We've brought two of the world's foremost experts to talk about how crypto links with foreign policy and the movement of money all over the world, and they are Sigal Mandelker and Ari Redbord.Sigal Mandelker is a general partner at Ribbit Capital where she deals with FinTech and crypto. But before this, she was Deputy Treasury Secretary and Under Secretary of Treasury for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence. She's joined by Ari Redbord who's the head of legal and government affairs at TRM Labs, the blockchain intelligence company. Before joining TRM, Ari was Sigal's senior advisor when she was the Under Secretary of Treasury and worked on a range of issues, including sanctions, anti-money laundering and a bunch of other scary and really important issues. Sigal and Ari, thank you so much for being here. We're excited to have you.Ari (01:15):Thank you so much for having us. I will say just to get things started, I'm a huge fan of sort of what you guys do at Solana and the team that's building with you and a huge fan of Sigal and just an amazing honor to be on a conversation like this with someone that I worked for when she was the under secretary and just really consider a close friend and colleague in the space now. So it's particularly cool. So thank you for having us.Sigal (01:40):Oh, it all goes back at both of you. I loved working with Ari then and I love being in this space with him now. It's pretty exciting.Amira (01:48):I'm here for all of it. I think it's going to be a very exciting few minutes. I think the backgrounds are really interesting and you all know that this circle of people who come from government into crypto is growing, but it's small. And so very specific journeys I think got all of us into this space. I'm curious what got each of you interested in crypto? Why are you passionate about it? Ari, I don't know if you want to kick us off here. I know Sigal has a particular story.Ari (02:13):Sure. Yeah. No, happy to. Everyone has their sort of crypto origin story. And so many times you hear about "I bought Bitcoin 15 years ago." And for me it was really a lot different. We started to see it 2015 or so in a lot of our sort of large money laundering investigations that actually involve some of the sort of nation state actors like North Korea that we'll be digging into today. I think we sort of realized even then the power and promise of this technology, but also that if it was going to grow and flourish and they were going to build this new economy, that we needed to stop illicit actors from doing it. And that was sort of as a prosecutor and then honestly getting an opportunity to work with Sigal and the team at Treasury on some policy related issues in the space, I think really, really also got me interested in.At TRM labs, it's sort of like we sit in this sort of intersection, because I think we obviously believe very firmly in the potential and the growth of this new crypto economy, but at the same time, sort of understand that trust layer, anti-money laundering national security is critical infrastructure for it. And that intersection that we're going to be talking about today is really sort of where I see the most work that can be done.Amira (03:19):Yeah. I think that's incredibly important to remember that trust is really important to make sure that the space thrives. Sigal, I'm curious about your crypto origin story. Tell us how you got into it and why you're so excited about it.Sigal (03:31):When I was at Treasury, my job was very much a global job, so I would travel all over the world. In those travels, I would often meet with senior government officials from heads of state on down, central bankers, CEOs of banks, et cetera. And along the way, it became increasingly clear to me for a number of different reasons that our banks, US banks had massively de-risked all over the world. It became clear to me because in so many different countries, particularly in the developing world, in emerging markets, in so many different countries these senior officials and CEOs of banks would ask me if I could help them get access to US correspondent banking. We really studied to look at it and study it. And the trend is clear. Like if you start looking from 2012 to today, just as one example, the number of US correspondent, global correspondent relationships is very, very much on the decline.And so when I left Treasury, this became like an issue that I was very passionate about. How do we get great financial infrastructure and companies out of the US and elsewhere to be able to provide a variety of financial services in the developing world, in emerging markets, where in my opinion, in many respects, we had left them high and dry. And I came to the conclusion personally, that the only way we were going to do that was through disruptive financial technologies. And so I decided to find a place where I could pursue that passion. Along the way, I met our founder, Micky Malka, who has founded Ribbit along with Nick Shalek and some others about 10 years ago. I very quickly understood that really the mission of Ribbit is to change the world of finance and to do so exactly in this way through disruptive financial technologies that we're going to open up access to many, many more people in a much more efficient way all over the world.And so a week later, Micky called me and asked if I was open to having a conversation about joining Ribbit. It was definitely a road less traveled for a former undersecretary, but it was a super exciting path to go down.Amira (05:36):I want to stay back on the beat that you mentioned about the drop of US correspondent banking all over the world. It would be helpful if you describe what exactly does that mean? What is a correspondent bank and why were you concerned about that as an undersecretary of Treasury? Why is that important to you?Sigal (05:54):For many reasons. First of all, correspondent banking, it basically allows banks all over the world in part to get access to US dollar accounts among other things. And when you don't have that correspondent banking relationship, when you're being de-risked, there's just less access to the US financial infrastructure in many different ways, which means a lot of things. One of the things that it means is that if you think about our various sort of tools of financial leverage, we're seeing that play out right now in Russia, right? Where sanctions has become a major tool of national security. But if you're issuing a sanction in a country or a region that has very little touch points with the US financial infrastructure, then that economic leverage no longer actually really works, or it's less likely to work. It's more complicated than that.Also, the US traditionally has been the exporter rate of democracy and American values. We have always prided ourselves in innovation and being like a center for ingenuity. And again, when you don't have US capital or those kinds of relationships all over the world, I think that's not only really to the detriment of the US, but also to the detriment of people all over the world. And then they're just going to go to alternatives. And that's definitely happening as well.Amira (07:14):One of the things that we've chatted about before is, it's not just a whole for US national security, but there's a bunch of people out there who when US banks aren't abroad, they're still looking for financial services. One of the interesting things about crypto is it offers that.Amira (07:29):Sigal, I know you have a really personal story of why crypto and access to financial services are important to you. Now I was wondering if you could tell us a bit about that and why this industry resonates personally.Sigal (07:39):Yeah, so it's really in part because my parents are both Holocaust survivors. During the Holocaust, they were in hiding in a part of Poland that is now Ukraine. They were kids. So they were separate, but they happened to be relatively close to Lviv. And the only way at the time that my dad, for example, could have ate, had access to any food, was my grandfather would go out in the middle of the night and he would steal potatoes. Once he stole a pig ear and brought it to my dad and my dad said "It's not kosher dad, I can't eat this." And my grandpa said, "No, it's the only way for you to get nourishment." So when I think about, I imagine what would've happened back then if this technology existed and they had access to a phone and they had relatives far away who could actually send them some value that they could use to barter for food, something like that was just totally impossible back then. You couldn't get anything from your family members who were in another country.Actually when I was at Treasury, there was somebody who had brought this idea to me of being able to use crypto to provide humanitarian aid, for example, to refugees in Syria. And I thought it was a really fascinating concept. And of course, it's so prescient today because the crypto community, including very much the Solana community, has really stepped up and used crypto working with the Ukrainian government to do exactly what we couldn't do in the forties '40s, which is to provide aid to the government in their fight for freedom, to help people get access to food, medical supplies, and elsewhere. And for many reasons, we could, I know, get into. I don't think banking is really necessarily set up to provide that kind of access in that way. It's too difficult. It's too complicated. Our banks don't operate in those parts of the world often where people really need that assistance. But crypto is global. It's everywhere where you can get access to it. In many other respects, it's just like a really groundbreaking innovation.Amira (09:31):It's kind of amazing, I mean, how much history repeats itself and how much access to these tools they were needed 80 years ago, they're needed today. Ari, I remember you telling me an example of how the US government I think, maybe it wasn't, was able to get aid into Venezuela directly using crypto. I'd love it if you could tell us a little bit more about that example.Ari (09:51):I think that was Sigal's story so I'm going to give her that one.Sigal (09:56):Okay. Well, this actually happened after I left Treasury, but I think it's also incredible. So when we had very heavy sanctions on Venezuela because of Maduro and what he was doing in that country, when we had the sanctions program, I made sure, or at least when I oversaw it, I made sure that in the Venezuela context we had the most forward leaning general license for humanitarian aid in particular that we had ever had before. I basically told our team like, "Everything that's ever been on the cutting room floor, we need to put it in this program because we need to help people who were literally starving to get access to aid." The other challenge was that it was very, very difficult for the US government to get anything resembling humanitarian aid into the country. I mean, literally, there were shiploads of stuff that the US government had sent and Maduro wouldn't allow it in or accept it.I will say that even though we had these very forward leaning general licenses, NGOs would come to us, to me and to Ari, I had a call that Ari will remember at the state department where these NGOs would say, "Look, we know you've got this general license, but the banks were all de-risking us. They won't allow us to continue." And I said at the time, "Well, tell them to call me. I mean, this is why we had that such a forward leaning general license>" but banks are just very risk averse in that way.And so fast forward, actually after I left Treasury, what was the one way that the state department working with Treasury and I think with Airtm and maybe with Circle, they were able to get USDC to help something like 60,000 or 80,000 doctors and nurses who are fighting on the front lines of COVID in Venezuela. Again, it's just like Ukraine. It's another really amazing use case where our banks weren't able necessarily, maybe some did, but many weren't able to get humanitarian aid in. But boom, instantly you could send it in and you could account for it because it's transparent, so you can audit it. You can make sure that if it lands in the wrong hands, that they can't use it. So it's a really incredible tool to allow access to, again, just like Solana is doing to allow access to a very fast payment system or a transfer of value for humanitarian purposes while also ensuring, helping to ensure at least, that it's used for the right reasons.Ari (12:14):I think what's so interesting is there's this narrative that crypto with these sort of qualities, decentralized permission list, cross border value transfer at the speed of the internet, somehow it's only used by illicit actors. But the fact is those are the qualities that allow it to sort of move outside of traditional financial systems to provide aid to people that would otherwise not have access to it. And I think this Ukraine moment in this really horrific situation is this incredible example of how communities, decentralized communities have developed in order to support a resistance movement in a government. I mean, Zelensky talks about Twitter being a tool of the resistance or a tool of Ukraine in this moment. Well, what you see happening on Twitter is communities developing to send cryptocurrency to support movements there.Admittedly, I think Sigal and I are often talking about sort of the financial crime and the money laundering risks and the things in sort of that space, but you do have to step back and say like, "We have to stop bad actors from using it because it's so good and there's so much power and promise of it to do good." I do think we're having sort of a watershed moment in Ukraine where you're having this sort of global event where we're seeing hundreds of millions of dollars ultimately will flow to Ukraine in cryptocurrency and really arguably sort of the first maybe use case at scale of what the power of this technology can do. I think it's an exciting moment. Obviously, it's a moment you never wanted to see, but I think this will be an example that will be able to use as to why this technology has so much promise.Sigal (13:47):Yeah. And I would say just to add to that really quickly, what I like to talk about when I'm talking to policy makers and regulators, et cetera, is that you have to stop looking at everything through the lens of risk. Risk is important. We want to mitigate risk, but really what you need to do is start looking at the opportunity and how this technology will enable so much opportunity. Because what we have today are a bunch of developers, innovators, builders, dreamers, right? Who are literally thinking about how to build out a more efficient financial infrastructure for the future that many more people ultimately will be able to access and use.That part of the infrastructure that deals with illicit finance and investor protection, that's being built too. So you can do those things really in parallel and therefore really drive out. In many ways more successfully than what we have in traditional finance, the illicit part of it as what we're seeing is like the vast, vast majority of people in crypto, they're just builders. They want to grow new things whether it's NFTs, games, payments, access, Ukraine, et cetera.So if you only look at things as a regulator from the perspective of risk, then you're never going to let anything grow. You really have to start talking about how to use this technologies as a great opportunity, including one of the reasons that I came into this space, right? Which is because I thought like this is this great opportunity to build out potentially much better financial infrastructure, which many, many more people will be able to access in the future. And if a portion of that remains in the United States, then the United States will be able to continue to be a center of financial innovation for years to come. If it doesn't, that's a different story.Amira (15:29):A lot of folks in the audience have never actually been in your shoes or anywhere close to it. I want to take a second to dig into sort of like that Carrie Mathison type stuff, which is like, let's look behind the shroud and see what it looks like to walk into your desk at Treasury every morning and understand what's coming past your desk from the risk perspective. Let's help figure out why regulators might be so concerned and help listeners understand what it was like to track down bad actors when you were in Treasury. So what did that look like for traditional finance specifically? What would you see? What does the process look like? How do you start your days even?Sigal (16:06):I used to start my day every day with an intel briefing. Basically with a briefing, where I would learn about all the potential terrible things, terrible things around the world that were happening and potential terrible things that could happen. So when you're in a job whose title is terrorism and financial intelligence, that's just the way your day is going to start. You're constantly thinking about how to protect not only Americans, but people all over the world from bad actors. So that's how you start. Literally, the framing of your day really starts with hearing about bad stuff that could potentially happen. And then in many respects, you said about your day in part to ensure that that bad stuff doesn't actually come into place. There are all kinds of different ways in which that happens.Another big part of my job was also to think about how do we reform, how do we provide much more guidance to the private sector which we did really with the FinCEN guidance in 2019 and in lots of different ways through our sanctions programs, through advisories that we issued to help the private sector also work with us to better protect themselves against being abused by bad actors.Amira (17:15):What does it actually look like when you're stopping bad actors? So you talk on sort of vagueness, but think about a case where maybe you had to take traditional tools of finance to stop a bad actor and what that process looks like. And then how does that actually contrast when you're thinking about a crypto bad actor? What are the differences in that process?Ari (17:32):One thing that we did at Treasury and at DOJ when I was in AUSA is you put together great teams and you reached out to all kinds of different pieces of the inner agency, the executive branch. So when we were prosecuting a case, we would want to ensure that we had a team of the best IRS CI agents and HSI and FBI. It was very similar at Treasury, right? I mean, if you were going to do a sanctions' designation on North Korea for example, you would want to ensure that you had the right policy people in the room from TFFC, and that you'd have the right intelligence from OIA, that you'd have exactly the right subject matter experts from OFAC on sanctions and FinCEN on money laundering and financial crime. And you would put them all together. And I think this is what, why Sigal was frankly so successful, is that you basically would reach out to teams of subject matter experts. And you'd put these teams together and they would inform great policy.I think one thing that sometimes is missing is that there's this sense that sort of like from the private sector that the government doesn't know what it's doing and this sense from the government that the private sector just has a certain agenda. I really do think at the end of the day, some of the best subject matter experts in the world are in both places. When you have those public-private partnerships, you're going to have much, much more success. So to me, it really is about putting together great teams of subject matter experts. I think we're seeing that today quite frankly. I mentioned North Korea.For example, you have this hack of the Ronin, Axie infinity blockchain a few weeks ago. And very, very quickly, Treasury essentially identified Lazarus group, a state actor from North Korea as having engaged in that attack. I'm not there anymore. Sigal's not there anymore. But what I imagine happened is they put together teams of experts from those different places who were using blockchain analytics tools to watch the flow of funds in that attack. And then you saw the designation, the sanction of a specific address for the first ever time associated with Lazarus group. And then you saw those funds flow to three other addresses, and immediately you saw those addresses sanctioned. And then you saw those funds flow through mixing services, which are basically exchanges on blockchains that mix funds and send them out, sort of clean the other side. And you saw those funds flow through a mixer called Blender.io that was ultimately designated sanctioned by OFAC.So again, while we're not there anymore, when I see these actions, I sort of picture a skiff, a secure facility within Treasury a few steps from where Sigal and I sat. I picture this group of true subject matter experts sitting around and laying out game planning, these types of actions. I think that's as inside baseball as I could do here. But I do think that like the key is great teams, and we were always very lucky to work with great teams.Sigal (20:22):Speaking of which, I was also really smart to bring brilliant people to work with me in my front office. And of course, Ari was very much at the center of that. We're in war mode all the time at Treasury, right? You're always dealing with really bad actors.Ari (20:40):I picture Sigal running when I think of Sigal, in heels down.Sigal (20:45):Clicking.Ari (20:45):And I remember actually ended up buying shoes that had sort of sneaker styles soles on the bottom because you were so constantly running up and down the hallways of these marble floors, because that's exactly what it was. You were always in a rush. It was always because the work you were doing was important.Sigal (21:01):I lost a lot of shoes that way. One thing I will say when Ari's talking about Lazarus, the first time that I really understood the power of blockchain analytics and blockchain technology was actually when we had sanctioned a big network. I think it was the first time we sanctioned... I actually included wallet addresses. Literally within a day, maybe it was that same day, I don't even remember, Chainalysis had put out a piece that literally identify all the different addresses that were linked to the ones that we had sanctioned so that people could very, very quickly know what to stay away from, like what was really bad news and actually protect themselves from interacting. Ideally, we could freeze funds.I remember at the time saying to a different senior advisor, Leah Bressack, like, "Yes, this is what we want industry to do. We don't ever see this kind of analysis from the banking industry." And that was really in part because that capability doesn't exist in the same way. I mean, sure, we saw lots of SARS and sophisticated SARS from banking, but for somebody, a Chainalysis or now TRM to go out and very quickly publish reports much more quickly than we may have been able to do that really helped immediately track, detect, and deter illicit activity was really quite extraordinary.Ari (22:25):Yeah. I mean, it seems so obvious to probably most of your audience and certainly to us, but the ability to follow the money to watch financial flows in cryptocurrency is extraordinary compared to the traditional financial system. I mean Sigal and I both cut our teeth as prosecutors doing bulk cast smuggling cases and networks of hawalas and shell companies and Russian real estate and London and high value art, right? There's no TRM or Chainalysis for those things. Those are very hard. And in crypto you can follow the funds with great financial crime investigators at US law enforcement and globally can follow the funds using these kinds of tools in ways that were unimaginable before. So yes, you can certainly move money faster in larger amounts in many respects, but you have tremendous visibility. I think a lot of times that's missing still even from the conversations around sort of fraud and financial crime in crypto.Amira (23:22):So let me push on both points because I think this is really textured and no one knows more about this than you two, I think. So there are two people that might push back on what you just said. One is, I would say the folks that I think are especially concerned about crypto's usage for money laundering. Those people might say, "Yeah, but you're seeing the rise of privacy focused chains, of blending services, these things just make it impossible to obscure the movement of money. It's only a matter of time before we see these things succeed." And so maybe the technology's working for us now, but you're the first to say that this tech is early. How are we going to be able to catch terrorists and oligarchs once stuff advances?Ari (24:02):Yeah. No, it is still a little bit sort of a whack-a-mole. But it always has been in sort of the cat and mouse game between law enforcement and bad actors. I will say that so many of the big crypto investigations over the last few years involve mixing services, they involve privacy coins. Law enforcement ultimately was able to make those investigations using a combination of blockchain analytics like TRM, like Chainalysis, but then just great police work, off chain police works, subpoenas and search warrants, putting together the pieces.Amira (24:30):Is there an example that you can go into on that front?Ari (24:33):Yeah. I would say the Bitfinex case is a tremendous example actually. So I mean, essentially what you had there was a 2016 hack of an exchange where the money just sat there in a wallet. And then all of a sudden you started to see it move over the course of years across blockchains.Amira (24:49):And for background, for folks who aren't familiar, tell us what the broad strokes, the Bitfinex hack.Ari (24:54):Sure. Yeah, so really just that until recently, right? It was at the time one of the largest crypto hacks. About $70 million of Bitcoin was stolen from the Bitfinex exchange. A hacker breached these cybersecurity and stole about $70 million in Bitcoin. That money basically sat on an account for a while and then started to move in these individuals. They basically used every office station technique in the book, from mixers to privacy coins, to dark net markets and automating transactions which means you programmatically move funds across blockchains in order to obfuscate. Well, ultimately law enforcement used blockchain analytics tools to trace and track those funds through mixers and dark net markets. And ultimately, to be able to seize what grew to be about $4.2 billion, the largest seizure in US history, ultimately sees those funds.What's so interesting about crypto, and I think Sigal made this point earlier, is the blockchain is forever. So you don't just have to be ready for whatever the analytics tools and whatever the investigation tools is when you do the hack and when you start to launder funds. You have to worry about what it's going to look like five years down the road, what the technology is going to look like. Because law enforcement was able to follow those funds across years and across blockchains, ultimately actually arresting a couple in New York city a couple of months ago and charging them with laundering the largest seizure in US history. So there are definitely powerful, anonymity enhancing tools out there, but I will say that law enforcement is still making a lot of these cases.Sigal (26:38):Yeah, I would just add. I mean, like in this very early days, still nascent technology, the reason that some of the largest seizures of illicit assets in history has come from crypto is not because there's more illicit activity in crypto. For all of the reasons that Ari just mentioned, it's just in many respects easier to trace and ultimately to disrupt than what you have when people move all kinds of assets through shell companies and like all sorts of different parts of the world. That's really important because if you just look at the headlines and you say "Bitfinex, largest money laundering seizure in history," then you may just jump to like, "Oh, of course, because it was crypto." But no, people are just using crypto for bad things. It's really because law enforcement now with blockchain analytic firms, et cetera, and prosecutors have all these amazing tools at their disposal.Silk Road was another example. I mean there was a seizure last year or the year before of a billion dollars worth of, I think it was Bitcoin, that traced all the way back to maybe the earlier days of Silk Road. And boom! All of a sudden, money moved and they were able to pounce. I mean, frankly, if you're a bad actor, I would say as more of these cases are like coming to a fruition, stay away from crypto. There's a very decent chance you're going to get caught.There's also this narrative that I think has largely tamped down, but there was a narrative that crypto was going to be used on mass for sanctions evasion in the Russia context. And for a number of different reasons, I just don't think that, and I think Ari would probably agree, that's just not going to be the case. It's not that it couldn't be used for some, but Russia has been very good at money laundering for a very long time through things like real estate and shell companies and all kinds of different mechanisms that we've investigated for many, many years. With crypto, there isn't like the liquidity to move assets at the volume or scale that they would need to do that. Plus, if they try to, boom, the TRMs and Chainalysis and law enforcement kind of actors would likely be able to, at some point, quickly detect it, plus you have all these regulated exchange who have done really a terrific job working with law enforcement to be able to help trace and track and disrupt this activity.Ari (29:06):The only thing I would just kind of add to that, I think Sigal makes a great point at the end there in particular around compliance. I think there's this sort of sense that, "The wild west" is what you hear thrown around in terms of sort of the regulatory landscape. And at least on what we're talking about today, sort of that AML national security space, look, crypto businesses that operate in the United States are treated as like any other money service business for purposes of this. When you're looking at sort of the large exchanges where so much of the liquidity is today, they have robust compliance controls in place. They have compliance officers, they have policies and procedures. They use tools like TRM and Chainalysis in order to monitor transactions. This is not the wild west when it comes to stopping sanctions evasion when it comes to stopping bad guys.Ari (29:51):I mean, look, I think the reality is, there is certainly illicit activity occurring in crypto, but honestly, illicit activity occurs in any thriving financial system. Bad actors would not want to use it if it wasn't working, that's certainly true of cash. That's certainly true of sort of anything else. And as we see the growth of this economy, we're going to see more illicit activity just by the nature of it. But as an overall percentage, it's going to remain very, very low because I think as Sigal mentioned, it's not a great way to launder funds. It's not a great way for illicit actors to move money because we're watching it all the time. It's not just blockchain analytics and law enforcement. I mean, the coolest thing is when you jump on some of these Discords or on Twitter and you watch these super sleuths and parts of these different communities develop that are in these like open source tools that are following the funds in a hack. There is a self-policing element too, in this community that has never existed before when it comes to sort of following the money, watching financial flows.Amira (30:50):I think the headline from this episode's going to be advice from former Treasury officials, if you're a terrorist financeer, don't use blockchain.Ari (30:57):100%. Never use crypto. Yeah.Amira (30:59):This has flown by, and I feel like I have a million more things I could talk to you both about. But in our last couple minutes, maybe any advice you have for your peers who are in your shoes today, talking about sort of the growth of this new industry. What would you tell them? What do you wish you could whisper in their ear? Or maybe you've already whispered in their ear.Sigal (31:14):Look, what I say is, number one, you have to interact with the technology. You have to meet the entrepreneurs, the developers, the founders, to really understand what's being built. I mean, I had amazing folks around me in the government, but there's nothing to teach me to talk to me about this stuff. But there's nothing like interacting with someone like Anatoly or what have you to really see and envision what the future can look like with this infrastructure. So if you really want to understand what's happening, get out there, interact with the technology if you can. There's all kinds of ethical restrictions that don't allow enough people to be able to do that, but there should be mechanisms to allow you to interact with the technology, number one.Sigal (31:55):And number two, be open minded. Learn what's happening, what can the future look like, why do we think ultimately, why are there so many of us who've left government who are investing so much of our time and energy in these technologies because we actually believe that it's quite possible that this is where the future of finance lies. That's number one. Number two, if you're looking at how to regulate it, don't just put your mind around all the old tools that you know that you've come to rely on for the last century, right? This is a fundamentally new technology. It's transparent in a way that we haven't seen before. It's open source. There's so many different attributes of the technology that can help mitigate risk. And so be open to fresh new frameworks that potentially in my opinion not only, let's say on the AML side, can continue to drive illicit activity out, but really, really importantly can bring many more people around the world access to the financial ecosystem.There's 1.7 billion people, at least as of 2017, who didn't have access to banking. We got to solve that problem. It's not enough to go to inter agency or multilateral meetings all over the world and talk about it in five minute interventions, which is often what happens in these meetings. We got to really find the technology that can help solve those. And then US people, they need to really focus on how can they maintain that leadership. It's not going to be by calling things wild west and it's not going to be by only seeing things through the lens of old boxes and old frameworks that were built up when we were using the telegram. I mean, not the app Telegram, like those telegrams that they used in the '30s. And then also, perhaps not the same frameworks that we were using when we were still using the rotary phone. I mean, this is fundamentally new technology. Let's understand it and regulate it in a way that makes sense in light of the technology and allow it to experiment and grow so that we can build something out really together that can be truly extraordinary.Ari (34:13):I think that's so beautifully said. I share a lot of those sentiments. I've been lucky to have really the coolest jobs that you can ever have, so don't take this personally, Sigal. But I have the coolest job that I've ever had now. I think it's because I've just gotten to sort of engage with this incredible community of builders and innovators. And they all understand, I think, uniquely that we're building essentially a new financial system. I think it's so important that regulators sort of also embrace that moment, that this doesn't have to be the same. We don't have to do what we've done before. We can work with the technology. We can work with these builders sort of build something new. I think Solana is an amazing example of this because the focus on speed and the focus on sort of that incredibly strong community of NFT builders and gaming, and really I think all the things that are starting to develop to me are like really the future not just of kind of the technology, but really also compliance and regulation.The metaverse is not going to be a place that is entirely unregulated. It's going to be regulated, but it needs to be done in a super smart pro innovation kind of way. I'm so hopeful that these communities that I feel like I have been lucky enough to engage with over the last year or so, that regulators and policy makers are also engaging with them. So yeah, no, it's an incredibly exciting time. I don't know, I get up every morning kind of feeling that. I think it's sort of like, how do we inspire regulators and policy makers to kind of feel that same way.Amira (35:39):I'm revved up just hearing you about talk about this. Let's go.Ari (35:41):Let's go.Amira (35:41):All right.Ari (35:45):Sigal and Ari, thank you both so, so much for your time. We really appreciate it, and in giving us the inside view of what it's like to be a regulator dealing with these issues. I think I've learned a lot and I think our listeners have too. Thanks a bunch.Sigal (35:56):Thank you so much. And thanks for bringing us back together.Ari (35:59):Thank you so much. I loved it. Thank you so much.Sigal (36:02):Thank you.
Sarah O'Donovan joined Eoin and Ger on #OTBAM to chat about Cork's revival which has seen them qualify for the All-Ireland series in the hurling championship. #OTBAM with Gillette | #EffortlessFlow
With The Athletic's Detroit Pistons beat writer James L. Edwards III on vacation, Nic Henkel is joined by Detroit Bad Boys writer and podcaster Lazarus Jackson. The two discuss Deandre Ayton, the Pistons getting the fifth pick and the potential prospects who should be available.
We're back, and we're ready to introduce you to the new lineup of Beerists co-hosts! We're drinking a mix of beers on this one, one of which was brewed specifically to eulogize our dearly departed Mr. Lambert! Let's do this! Lazarus 86 Mike Scratch Dandelion Ginger Tonic Vitamin Sea Baby Waves Vitamin Sea Bad Connection Theme Music by Adrian Quesada End Credits Music: Driving through Malibu by The Big Let Down Additional music licensed through Epidemic Sound The Beerists are John Rubio, Grant Davis, Pam Catoe, and Mark Raup. Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or point your podcatcher to our RSS feed. You should also subscribe to our YouTube Channel. Support us by making a per-episode pledge at patreon.com/thebeerists and get some sweet rewards! Follow us on twitter, facebook, and instagram. Want to send us beer? Check our beer donation guidelines, and then shoot us and email at firstname.lastname@example.org
Sermon Notes John 11:44-45 NIV "The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, 'Take off the grave clothes and let him go.'" Jesus Gave Lazarus Life... "The greatest spiritual question we can ask ourselves is not, 'Is there life after death?' The real question is much deeper: 'Is there life before death?'" - Stephen W. Smith, The Lazarus Life Romans 8:11 NLT "The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you." New Life Power – Transformational Power – Lives in us! John 12:1-11 NIV "Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 'Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it. 'Leave her alone,' Jesus replied. 'It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.' Meanwhile, a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, for, on account of him, many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and believing in him." Passionately Pursue Jesus. Life Change in Us Leads to Life Change in Others. Jesus Give us a Second Chance. What are you living for?
Subscribe today for access to our full catalog of bonus episodes, including 2+ new episodes every month! www.patreon.com/boysbiblestudy In this dazzling and sometimes intense one-man show by Curt Cloninger, people who personally knew Jesus come to life and share their stories with a (captive?) audience. Barabbas, now reformed after Jesus took his place on the Cross, reminisces about his days murdering dirty Gentiles. Lazarus speaks in a thick Italian accent as he describes what it was like to be dead. And an unnamed childhood friend of Jesus, who is portrayed as effeminate and possibly gay for some reason, remembers how the young Savior only treated him with kindness. It's a deeply ambitious project that could only have been achieved by an actor as talented and willing to fully immerse himself in his work as Curt Cloninger. This VHS has been a favorite of the Boys' long before we had a show, and we're delighted to finally share it with the world. It's available in full on YouTube — watch it and you'll understand why we love it so much. View our full episode list and subscribe to any of our public feeds: http://boysbiblestudy.com Unlock 2+ bonus episodes per month: http://patreon.com/boysbiblestudy Subscribe to our Twitch for monthly streams: http://twitch.tv/boysbiblestudy Follow us on Instagram: http://instagram.com/boysbiblestudy Follow us on Twitter: http://twitter.com/boysbiblestudy
What do we know about Jesus and the story of Jesus from outside the Bible? Much more than you might think! Archaeologist Dr. Titus Kennedy joins Frank to reveal the Top 20 discoveries about Jesus from outside the Bible. Here they are: The place and nature of his birth. The murderous nature of Herod. The synagogue where Jesus taught in his adopted hometown—Capernaum. Peter's house in Capernaum. The pool of Bethesda. The pool of Siloam. The nature of the town of Bethany where Jesus raised Lazarus—Leper colony, “the place of Lazarus”, tomb that matches John 11:38. The temple place of the trumpeting. The Caiaphas ossuary (also the Miriam Ossuary—granddaughter of Caiaphus) The James ossuary. The gates of Hell. The miracles of Jesus—he's admitted as a miracle worker even by non-Christian sources. The fearful nature of Pilate—Why was Pilate afraid of upsetting the Jews? Archaeological evidence of Pilate includes coins, a ring, an inscription, and ancient writers). The nature and place of burial and resurrection: Tomb of the Shroud (nature of the burial), Church of the Holy Sepulcher, place of the burial and resurrection Nazareth inscription. Crucifixion—archaeology, writings (Acts of Pilate). Christ the magician cup. The murderous nature of Herod Agrippa I. The early spread of Christianity and the belief in the Resurrection. The graffiti found in Rome. Due to time constraints, we only were able to discuss the first 15 of these. But Frank and Titus kept recording! To see the remaining five, join our new CrossExamined Community which is a private online forum where believers can interact with us and one another without the fear of being canceled. After the program will be posted there. To learn much more, get Dr. Kennedy's excellent new book, Excavating the Evidence for Jesus: The Archaeology and History of Christ and the Gospels. If you would like to submit a question to be answered on the show, please email your question to Hello@Crossexamined.org. Subscribe on Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/CrossExamined_Podcast Rate and review! Thanks!!! Subscribe on Google Play: https://cutt.ly/0E2eua9 Subscribe on Spotify: http://bit.ly/CrossExaminedOfficial_Podcast Subscribe on Stitcher: http://bit.ly/CE_Podcast_Stitcher
A daily look at the relevant information security news from overnight.Episode 239 - 20 May 2022Log4J exploit - https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/lazarus-hackers-target-vmware-servers-with-log4shell-exploits/SQL brute - https://www.securityweek.com/new-brute-force-attacks-against-sql-servers-use-powershell-wrapperPhishing with Chat - https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/phishing-websites-now-use-chatbots-to-steal-your-credentials/Jupiter flawed - https://threatpost.com/vulnerability-wordpress-themes-site-takeover/179672/Flux flaw - https://portswigger.net/daily-swig/rogue-cloud-users-could-sabotage-fellow-off-prem-tenants-via-critical-flux-flawVidar delivery- https://www.zdnet.com/article/fake-domains-offer-windows-11-installers-but-deliver-malware-instead/Hi, I'm Paul Torgersen. It's Friday May 20th, 2022, and after a couple days under the weather, this is a look at the information security news from overnight. From BleepingComputer.com:The North Korean hacking group Lazarus is exploiting the Log4J remote code execution vulnerability on VMware Horizon servers. They use the weakness to execute a PowerShell command and ultimately install the NukeSped backdoor. Details in the article. From SecurityWeek.com:Microsoft has warned organizations of a new wave of brute force cyberattacks that target SQL servers and use a living-off-the-land binary. Specifically, the attackers rely on a legitimate utility called sqlps.exe to achieve fileless persistence on SQL servers that use weak or default passwords. From BleepingComputer.com:Phishing attacks are now using automated chatbots to guide visitors through the process of handing over their login credentials to the threat actors. How nice of them. Actually, the presence of a chatbot lends a sense of legitimacy to the malicious sites. See the full Trustwave report in the article. From ThreatPost.com:A critical privilege escalation flaw found in two WordPress site themes, can allow the threat actors to take over the sites completely. The Jupiter and JupiterX Core Plugin affect more than 90,000 sites. The vulnerability affects Jupiter Theme 6.10.1 or earlier, and JupiterX Core Plugin 2.0.7 or earlier. Updated versions have patched the flaws. From PortSwigger.net:A critical vulnerability in Flux2, the continuous delivery tool for Kubernetes, can enable rogue tenants in multi-tenancy deployments to sabotage their neighbors that are using the same off-premise infrastructure. The remote code execution flaw arises through improper validation of kubeconfig files, which “can define commands to be executed to generate on-demand authentication tokens”. In a single tenant deployment, this flaw is only a 6.8 severity. In multi tenant deployments, that rating jumps to a 9.9 And last this week, from ZDNet.comNewly registered domains that just appeared in April, mimic a legitimate Microsoft Windows 11 OS download portal. Unfortunately, what you actually get is a nasty little information stealer called Vidar. Link to the full Zscaler report in the article. That's all for me this week. Remember to LIKE and SUBSCRIBE. And as always, until next time, be safe out there.
Not only is there no scripture to support the false Roman Catholic teaching of Purgatory, but their own teachings regarding Indulgences overthrow the necessity for the torment of flames to purify the souls of sinful believers.----But this false teaching has the effect of sucking out all the goodness and precious comforts of true Bible doctrine, spiriting away the believers' hope in Christ's saving work for us.----Consider Christ's teaching regarding the rich man and Lazarus. Lazarus was a poor, terribly sick begger who lived on the street before the rich man's house. When Lazarus died, Jesus assures us that the angels took Lazarus to paradise, to rest with Abraham and all the other saints of olden times. There, Jewish teachings held, the Lord's people would remain in comfort until the resurrection at the end of the ages.----But the rich man died and opened his eyes in hell, a place of fiery torment. He begged for mercy, but was informed by Abraham that was impossible.----It turns out that the rich man had not had mercy on Lazarus. Good deeds can never make a man righteous, but failing to help a helpless neighbor out of one's blessings from God, proves the wickedness and unrighteousness of the rich man.----He tacitly acknowledged that he had never repented from defying God's commandments, but hoped that Lazarus could return to his brethren, so they might repent and avoid the torments of Hell.----But Christ made it clear- if men will not listen to and obey Moses and the prophets, they won't do so even if someone comes back from the grave to warn them of impending wrath from God.----There is no room to shoe horn Purgatory into Christ's teaching here.
Acts 15:1-6 Father discusses the religious and cultural dimensions of circumcision Jn 15:1-8 God's purpose is to do what in our lives? Letters Can Catholics see R-rated movies? My friend is being charged $200 for a baptism; is that OK? Can priests watch secular TV shows? Why does Father talk about Pentecostalism? What's the tradition about where Lazarus went? What is spy Wednesday? What was the follow-up after the soldiers rolled the dice? Word of the Day: NEW
COVID concerns have begun rising along with case numbers in several parts of the U.S., but local community levels remain in Low range at present. Half of the Austin City Council will not face an unexpected re-election campaign this year after all, as a judge has ruled that redistricting did not disenfranchise voters. Monthly real estate numbers show a new record median home price for Austin: $640,000. As delays return, a new recommendation for ABIA travelers checking bags: arrive at least two and a half hours ahead of your departure time. Teachers working for Lockhart, Hutto, Round Rock, Eanes, Lake Travis, and Hays ISD's will all get raises this year, ranging from 3 to 8% - Austin ISD is still considering what to do. As the national baby formula shortage continues, Mother's Milk Bank in Austin is providing pasteurized milk from mothers who have donated. Dog owners: hot weather early in the year is contributing to a possible high-risk season for dangerous algae in Austin's waterways. An art history professor at UT has helped an archaeological team to identify the earliest-known record of the Mayan calendar system. Austin has dropped out of the top 10 of U.S. News and World Report's "Best Places To Live" - we're now #13. Nevertheless, another new study finds that Austin remains one of the top cities that Americans are moving to - but we've been passed up there too, by Dallas, San Antonio and national #1 Houston. The Paramount Theater's Summer Classic Film Series is set to start its 48th run next week. And, the World Beer Cup craft beer awards were held recently in Nashville, and local winners included Lazarus, Meanwhile, Jester King, and Circle Brewing.
Are you waiting for God to help you? Learn from the story of Lazarus why God makes us wait and what we can learn from it.
Another show without fan-favorite, T'Challa. However, the hosts have been quite busy themselves. LaToya is always working multiple jobs and has no time to read. On the other hand, Barry is also very busy but is relishing in the afterglow of having four of his novels released during the Unleash the Reese promotion period. Not sure what to watch on television? Barry and LaToya are here to fill in the gaps.
In John 11, Jesus claims that he is the resurrection and the life and then he backs up that claim by raising a man named Lazarus from the dead. As the Resurrection and the Life, Jesus is inviting all of us to place our faith in what he has done for us so that we can experience the power of resurrection life today!
What constitutes a miracle to you? How about raising a dead man to life? Of course! Did you know that miracle is available to us as well? That's what Lauren Daigle sings about in her song, "Still Rolling Stones." We learn straight from the words of Jesus in this episode. Explore a familiar story with me in John 11. In this week's episode, I discuss: Taking a B.I.T.E. out of Scripture - this week's Bible Interaction Tool Exercises include: Repetition Read in a variety of translations Write in your Bible Reading the account of Christ's resurrection in all four gospels Choosing the rolling stone incident in John 11 - John 11:39 Why I use the English Standard Version to study - Bonus article by Wayne Grudem Letting things "rise to the surface" by reading repetitively Doing the work of interacting with God's Word to get results Focusing on what we DO understand before getting thrown off by what we don't understand in a text Exploring some "so" and "so that"s in the text Lazarus' illness was for God's glory SO THAT the Son of God may be glorified - John 11:4 Jesus loved the sisters and Lazarus, so he waited to go meet them in their grief - John 11:5 Jesus was glad he wasn't there so that they would believe - John 11:14-15 Recognizing that we don't always know God's motive and big-picture plan (even though we often ascribe motive to Him anyway) Exploring exactly what Jesus wanted us to "believe" since he said it six of the nine times it was mentioned in this chapter - John 11:25-26 Stepping out in faith to believe Jesus so that we too can be called from death to eternal life Recognizing that there were people who witnessed this miraculous event and still chose not to believe It's REALLY, REALLY important to Jesus that you believe in Him. THAT is what leads to eternal life. He want to roll the stone away from your life. More Than a Song Playlist Additional Resources Lyrics and chords - Essential Worship The Advantages of the English Standard Version (ESV) Translation - by Wayne Grudem (on the translation team of the ESV Bible) - online article Weekly Challenge Read John 11. Read John 11 several times and in several translations. Mark in your Bible, or print out a version you feel comfortable marking up and highlight the areas where the word "believe" is used. That is the theme I don't want you to miss. Explore the conjunction "so" and ponder the reason and explanation clauses surrounding it.
Jesus was Lazarus' friend, so why didn't He heal him before he died? Joyce shares wisdom from life and the Bible to help us understand.
In John 11, Jesus claims that he is the resurrection and the life and then he backs up that claim by raising a man named Lazarus from the dead. As the Resurrection and the Life, Jesus is inviting all of us to place our faith in what he has done for us so that we can experience the power of resurrection life today!
The news of the resurrection of Lazarus was on everyone's lips, and the question of Jesus' identity dominated their conversations. When they heard Jesus was coming into the city, they came to meet Him, grabbing their palm branches in hope of salvation, singing the words of Psalm 118, “Lord give salvation now”. Jesus did not avoid the crowd who wanted to make him king, but rather he redirects to what type of king He is, by riding in on a young donkey.
Sermon Notes John 11:1-3 NIV "Now, a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary, and her sister Martha. (This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one 5who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.) So the sisters sent word to Jesus, 'Lord, the one you love is sick.'" John 11:41-42 NIV "So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, 'Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.'" John 11:43-44a NIV "When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, 'Lazarus, come out!' The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen and a cloth around his face." John 11:44b NIV "Jesus said to them, 'Take off the grave clothes and let him go.'" It takes a community to strip us of our grave clothes. Philippians 2:1-3 NIV "Therefore, if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility, value others above yourselves." Romans 12:9-10 NIV "Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves." Romans 14:13 NIV "Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of a brother or sister." "When other people judge, criticize, and condemn us, we can plunge into cesspools of false guilt. Swiss psychologist Paul Tournier said false guilt “comes as a result of judgments and suggestions of men.” A twenty-one-year-old college student described his struggle with false guilt this way: “My dad acts like judge, jury, and executioner when I do something wrong. He makes me feel utterly worthless.” False guilt causes us to sink in defeat rather than rise up and move out of the tomb." – Steven W. Smith, The Lazarus Life Romans 8:1-2 NIV "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death." Learn to recognize the voice of your enemy vs. the voice of your Heavenly Father. Romans 8:5 NIV "Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires." Romans 8:6 NIV "The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace." Romans 8:7-8 NIV "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." Romans 8:9-11 NIV "You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you." Romans 8:28-30 NIV "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:31-32 NIV "What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?" Romans 8:33-34 NIV "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Romans 8:35-36 NIV "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written: 'For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.'" Romans 8:37 NIV "No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us." Romans 8:38-39 NIV "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." The end game of God’s love for us is more worship. John 11:2 NIV "(This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair.)" John 12:1-3 NIV "Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume."
Pastor Gary begins the study of Lazarus's death and resuscitation by reflecting on the silence and mysterious ways of God. Although God's timing might not look like ours, we can always trust in His good plan.
Time for the latest episode of the Terrible Terror Podcast with The Lazarus Effect. Is the afterlife real? Can you bring the dead back with white liquid? Are we going to sing the Monster Mash together? Catch the answers to all this and more on the latest podcast!Terrible Terror:Facebook: https://facebook.com/terribleterrorpodcastInstagram: https://instagram.com/terribleterrorpodcastTwitter: https://twitter.com/t00lbertYouTube: Terrible Terror PodcastTwitch: https://twitch.tv/terribleterrorsCheck out the Terrible Terror Store On TeePublic! The new Corn Tree design is now available:http://tee.pub/lic/e7et5lQSSbw
In this episode we take a deeper look at what it was like for Jesus when he was coming into Jerusalem. To do this, we take evidence from an eyewitness who heard and seen it all for himself, John. John tells us how the Pharisees had made a proclamation to all the people that if they saw Jesus, they were to come and report it to them so they could arrest him! These are the ones who should know who Jesus was since they studied and taught the law of God their whole lives yet, they saw Jesus as a freak, a weirdo, and there was no way that guy could be the Messiah. Even though they heard the account of the miracles, even though they could literally go to Lazarus' house and talk with him about him being dead and in a tomb for four days, how Jesus raised him the grave, they said, “We don't believe and we have to get rid of this guy!” We do the same thing today; the evidence is all around us, we can go and see artifacts that have been dug up and preserved that back up the authenticity of the Bible, yet we choose to reject Jesus just like the Pharisees and the religious leaders did!
In this message we learn from Cheyne Gallagher about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. We see Jesus' human emotions on display in this story. Jesus wept. What does that teach us about what we experience?John 11:1-45
Bishop Thomas Neylon, Lead Bishop for Asia for the Bishops' Conference, has recorded a short reflection on Blessed Lazarus, also called Devasahayam, an 18th-century Indian martyr. He was a married Hindu man who converted to Catholicism and suffered much persecution for his faith. A Catholic for only seven years, he was shot dead in the Aralvaimozhy forest on January 14, 1752. Image Statue of Devasahayam Pillai, St. Francis Xavier Cathedral, Kottar, Nagercoil Kumbalam on Wikimedia Commons CC BY-SA 3.0
THE THESIS: Conservatives--that is, people who actually believe in a constitutionally limited government!--need be clear-eyes as to who is a conservative and who is a Republican, who is for America and who is for the globalists, who kneels before God and who worships at the temple of human wants. THE SCRIPTURE & SCRIPTURAL RESOURCES: 10 Key Bible Verses on Leadership Real Life Theology THE NEWS & COMMENT: Mitch McConnell Claims ‘We All Agree The Most Important Thing Going On In The World Right Now Is The War In Ukraine' [AUDIO] - "I had a chance to call the president last week and request that the Ukraine package more by itself and quickly...He called back in about 15 minutes and agreed...I think we're on a path to getting that done." [AUDIO] - I want to remind Congress we swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. It's time to pay attention to our country and our borders. Today, I'm voting NO to the $40 Billion America LAST Ukraine First spending bill. [AUDIO] - Lindsey Graham declares, "let's take out Putin" and says there is "no off-ramp in this war" -- also continues to suggest a No Fly Zone. "We can win this war on behalf of Ukraine," he adds. No compunction whatsoever about announcing that the goal is US-imposed regime change [AUDIO] - Beltway guy, Mark Esper, worked for Trump: “Mark Esper calls Trump a ‘threat to democracy' It is very possible that this becomes a GOP talking point and wouldn't surprise me if this became more or less the mainstream GOP position on Trump.” Media 2022: "HAHAHAHA! Trump thought that China has a 'weather gun' to create storms and Trump asked if China can use it against the US." Media 2013: Here is a gun-looking "cloud splitter" that China uses to create billions of ton rain annually. [AUDIO] - Congratulations to my amazing colleagues at @washingtonpost on winning the @PulitzerPrizes in Public Service for their account of the attack on the US Capitol on January 6 . . . Julie Kelly notes: Remember how WashPo found out why Pelosi/Bowser/McConnell denied pleas for extra security? Or reported on all the federal assets involved before and during January 6? And posted the 14,000 hours of surveillance video? And how 4 Trump supporters died? Or why NYT lied… Dinesh D'Souza: “Since the ‘fact checkers' say geotracking is imprecise and inaccurate, here's Chief Justice Roberts in a 2018 opinion: “When the Government tracks the location of a cell phone, it achieves near perfect surveillance as if it had attached an ankle monitor to the phone's user.” [AUDIO] - Ursula von der Leyen, President of the European Commission, presents the Atlantic Council Prize to Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer. [AUDIO] - Dennis Meadows: University of New Hampshire and WEF articulates clearly and without emotion the ruling oligopoly's plan for world depopulation and resource utilization. [AUDIO] - Karine Jean-Pierre "Fox News was racist before #coronavirus, they are racist during coronavirus, and Fox News will be racist after the coronavirus" THE LISTENERS: Brother Todd, You often speak about those going to eternal suffering in hell. I would ask you to consider a somewhat differing viewpoint on the matter. What you say is indeed probably the most common view of the subject by most members of “Churchianity” but is it really what Scripture teaches? John 3:16 says “everyone who believes in Him shall not perish”. It doesn't say unbelievers will be endlessly tormented. They are the ones that “perish”. They go to destruction. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul teaches we, in order to become Christians, must be clothed in immortality. Unless you are born again, you are a mere mortal. That is the default condition of all of humanity. Lost people have not been “clothed in immortality “. They die and all that they were ceases to exist. Their souls will not go on. “The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” Revelation 20:10 HCSB To do anything endlessly, you must first live forever—lost people, the names not found in the book of life do not do so. The ones in endless suffering are listed above. Think about it— God is loving beyond our comprehension. He certainly would be just if He chose to, but does He even want to or need to torture those not chosen by Him to satisfy something in Him? I don't see it. “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him,.....” John 6:44 HCSB Everyone one He desires to save, gets saved. Period Does it even make sense that He would require endless torment for those incapable of turning to Him? If you actually read this, thank you. I enjoy the podcast a lot. Really appreciate your efforts and passion. Wish we could interact more easily. You really get my wheels turning sometime and I wish I could talk back! Lot of Scripture topics we could talk about for hours. Who knows? Maybe sometime it can happen. Thanks again brother, Now, go spend sometime with the Lord ;-) Curtis -- --- --- My Dear Brother, Curtis: I wish I could agree with your assessment. But, my reading of the Bible and my study of theology leads me to a different conclusion. Daniel 12:2 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Matthew 25: 31-46 The Sheep and the Goats 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.' 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.' 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.' 30 “‘No, father Abraham,' he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.' 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'” Mark 9: 42-50 - Causing to Stumble 42 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them if a large millstone were hung around their neck and they were thrown into the sea. 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.  [b] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.  [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.'[d] 49 Everyone will be salted with fire. 50 “Salt is good, but if it loses its saltiness, how can you make it salty again? Have salt among yourselves, and be at peace with each other.” Revelation 14:11 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Episode Summary|In this episode, Christine shares three points about the nearness of God during the circumstances of death. The character of God can be seen in the story of Jesus, and with more clarity we can see the character of God in the story of Lazarus, Jesus's friend. While listening, the audience is encouraged to listen to the attentiveness of Jesus during the death of his friend. The prayer behind this episode is to give the listener a new perspective on suffering through circumstances of death and experiencing the nearness of God. Episode Scripture References|John 11: The story of Lazarus Episode Graphics and Application|https://www.canva.com/design/DAFAi_0BLSY/3CwQ9_At7iDPvSVfMvX4Cw/view?utm_content=DAFAi_0BLSY&utm_campaign=designshare&utm_medium=link2&utm_source=sharebuttonEmail your reflections, questions, praise reports and requests to Christine at email@example.com.Don't forget to subscribe for Bonus Episodes, Coaching and Community on the Apple Podcast app and then join The Unconventional Community on Facebook!https://www.facebook.com/groups/490546009521449/Connect with Christine on any of these platforms:Instagram: @twinmamaplus_1Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/christine.eddinger.98LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christine-eddinger-73724270/We will see you back here in June for the kickoff of a new series on Motherhood! Be Blessed!
On Today with Jeff Vines, we're continuing our look at The Rich Man and Lazarus, in Luke 16 verse 19. From this passage we learn there's a type of person who ends up separated from God for eternity. This is another message in the series looking at some big questions that many have about Christianity. Support the show: https://www.oneandall.church/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
De oorlog in Oekraïne heeft de geopolitieke verhoudingen in de wereld op scherp gezet. Wat betekent de oorlog voor onze relatie met Amerika? En hoe moeten we ons in de toekomst verhouden tot Rusland? Annette en Mathieu spreken met Renée Jones-Bos, oud-ambassadeur in Moskou en in Washington DC. Denkt zij dat de Europese sancties effect hebben op het handelen van Poetin? En -mocht het zo ver komen- hoe onderhandel je dan met Russische diplomaten? Ook vertelt zij over de manier waarop de Amerikanen naar Rusland en Europa kijken. Verder schakelen we met Derk Marseille in Berlijn om te praten over de Zeitenwende - de grote verandering in het Duitse buitenland- en defensiebeleid nav deze oorlog. Hoe krijgt dat verder gestalte? Tips in deze uitzending:- Renée Jones-Bos raadt ‘Laurus' aan van Eugene Vodolazkin (https://www.devriesvanstockum.nl/laurus-eugene-vodolazkin-9781780748719.html), en tipt verder ‘De dag van de opritsjnik' van Vladimir Sorokin (https://www.devriesvanstockum.nl/day-of-the-oprichnik-vladimir-sorokin-9780241355114.html) en ‘The women of Lazarus' van Marina Stepnova. - Mathieu tipt ‘Purity' van Jonathan Franzen https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/f/purity/9200000047340557/- Annette raadt de documentaire ‘Notes from Brussels' aan https://vimeo.com/640696004?embedded=true&source=video_title&owner=13978228 - Freek Ewals tipt het lied Slava Ukraina van Andriy Khlyvnyuk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV_vT0Vud5QOver Café Europa: - Mathieu Segers en Annette van Soest bespreken elke aflevering met een gast de achtergronden bij het Europese nieuws. Ook bellen zij elke keer met Eveline Bijlsma - correspondent in Parijs voor oa RTL Nieuws, Han Dirk Hekking - Europaverslaggever FD, of Derk Marseille - correspondent in Duitsland voor oa BNR Nieuwsradio- Annette van Soest is presentator en journalist oa voor Haagsch College en BNR Nieuwsradio- Mathieu Segers is hoogleraar hedendaagse Europese geschiedenis en Europese integratie aan Maastricht University - Freek Ewals is de oprichter en programmamaker van Haagsch College en doet de redactie van Café EuropaCafé Europa is een initiatief van Haagsch College en Studio Europa Maastricht
Pastor Jeff has another message in his series THE TROUBLE WITH CHRISTIANITY; a series looking at some big questions that many have about Christianity. Today Pastor Jeff is looking at Luke 16 verse 19 ? a verse about The Rich Man and Lazarus. We learn from this passage there's a type of person who ends up separated from God for eternity. It might all sound heavy going? but here's Pastor Jeff to help contextualise this for us in today's world. Support the show: https://www.oneandall.church/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
No one enjoys getting hurt, but because we live in a world that has been broken by sin, we get hurt often. Sometimes, this hurt comes from other people. The ones we trust the most, and are closest to, can really mess with our life. People can push us around and use us. They can break our heart and disappoint us. Daily life holds a lot of pain. Jesus experienced that pain while He was on earth, and He understands what we are facing. Before it came time for Jesus to go to the cross and die a very painful death, He asked God if that was something He really had to do. He knew the pain He was going to feel, not only from what was physically going to happen but also emotionally, as people would insult Him and mock Him—and even His closest friends would betray Him, deny Him, and run away from Him. Jesus knew that going to the cross meant that He would endure all of God's wrath for the sins of the whole world. And His Father would not reach down and stop the pain from happening. Even though Jesus knew God would raise Him from the dead after three days in the tomb, He was still in agony on the night before He went to the cross (Matthew 26:38). But He was willing to endure it, because it was the only way to save us—to forgive our sin and heal our broken world. A few days earlier, Jesus was deeply sad when His friend Lazarus died. Even though Jesus knew He was about to raise Lazarus from the dead, He wept alongside His friends. Pain is a part of life, but we serve a God who understands our pain. A God who is there for us in the midst of suffering. A God who became human and endured immense pain—because He loves us. A God who has promised that He will right every wrong and put an end to pain forever (Revelation 21:1-6). If we've put our trust in Jesus, we can know that when people hurt us, when they make life miserable for us, God stands with us. He helps us. He soothes us. He empowers us to forgive those who have wronged us. And He walks with us through the pain. • Emily Acker • What is causing you pain today? • If you've put your trust in Jesus, you are never alone in your pain. Jesus is with you, and you are part of His family, the church. How does God invite us to receive comfort from Him and from fellow Christians? (2 Corinthians 1:3-7) • When someone hurts us deeply, what might healthy boundaries look like? If you're not sure, who can you ask, such as a pastor, parent, teacher, counselor, coach, or youth leader? • If you've been hurt deeply and need someone to talk to, you can set up an appointment for a one-time complimentary phone consultation with a Christian counselor through the Focus on the Family Counseling Service. In the United States, call 1-855-771-HELP (4357) weekdays 6:00 a.m. to 8:00 p.m. (Mountain Time) to set up an appointment. In Canada, book your appointment by calling 1-800-661-9800 between 8:00 a.m. and 4:00 p.m. (Pacific Time) and ask to speak with the care associate. • If you or someone you know is suffering from abuse, and if your situation is potentially life-threatening, call 911 (or the emergency number for your area) or go to the local hospital emergency room right away. The Lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. Psalm 34:18 (NIV)
There is a name that will live forever in our memories, and there is probably not a culture in the world that does not understand the significance of the name…Judas. Judas is hard to understand…almost as hard to understand as Jesus who included Judas in the small band of men he named as apostles. Because Jesus included Judas in that band knowing from the beginning that Judas would betray him.People have a morbid fascination with Judas, knowing that he did an evil thing but wondering at the same time if there is any way to rescue him, to rehabilitate Judas. He first starts emerging from the background noise around Jesus in an incident that took place a mere six days before Jesus’ crucifixion. Jesus had come to Jerusalem for the last time and was staying in Bethany, at the house of Mary, Martha and Lazarus. Bethany is about a half hour’s walk from the temple mount. Martha had prepared supper for Jesus. Lazarus was one of those sitting at the table, and so was Judas. Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?John 12:3–5What was Jesus’ response to Judas?
Grief, compassion, comfort, and addiction counseling – today from CJ McMurry, from The Refuge, and Dr. Mark E. Shaw, Founder of The Addiction Connection. CJ is a Commissioned Addictions Biblical Counselor with TAC, and serves The Refuge Program Director. The compassion of Jesus toward Mary and Martha when Lazarus died. "Holed up" and "locked down," or bold in Christ? Eccl 7:1-9 "A good name is better than precious ointment, and the day of death than the day of birth. It is better to go to the house of mourning than to go to the house of feasting, for this is the end of all mankind, and the living will lay it to heart. Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth. It is better for a man to hear the rebuke of the wise than to hear the song of fools." Connecting the dots from mourning to the heart desire problem of addiction. Psalm 90:12 "So teach us to number our days that we may get a heart of wisdom." Death shuts the mouth and quiets the noise in a "sobering" way. Mirthing? 2020 Stats on alcohol-related reasons for death vs. covid John 16:33 Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." Proverbs 14:13 "Even in laughter the heart may ache, and the end of joy may be grief." Dr. Mark E Shaw is the Founder of The Addiction Connection and leads an international team of Commissioned Addictions Biblical Counselors (CABC) who are leading the way in offering the "Hope of the Gospel for the Heart of Addiction." CJ McMurry is a CABC (Commissioned Addictions Biblical Counselor) with The Addiction Connection, serves on TAC's Board, and facilitates TAC's network as the Midwest Regional Director as well. He lives and works in Iowa as the Program Director of The Refuge in Winterset, a men's residential program for those in alcohol and drug addictions. Find more biblical residential programs for addiction which is what the world calls Substance Use Disorders. Looking for programs? Visit: https://www.theaddictionconnection.org/residential-programs/ Looking for addictions biblical counselors? Visit: www.theaddictionconnection.org/people/ Scripture quotations are from the ESV® Bible (The Holy Bible, English Standard Version®), copyright © 2001 by Crossway, a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers. Used by permission. All rights reserved. May not copy or download more than 500 consecutive verses of the ESV Bible or more than one half of any book of the ESV Bible.
When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, scripture says that his family and friends had to loose him of his grave clothes. This message talks about what “grave clothes” are and looks at how to remove the garments of death off of our lives. Our old sin nature can try to cling to us when […] The post Grave Clothes | Part 2 “Staying Free” appeared first on Duane Sheriff Ministries.
Today's topics asks "Does God send us to hell?". We're continuing our look at The Rich Man and Lazarus, in Luke 16 verse 19. This is another message in the series looking at some big questions that many have about Christianity. Join Pastor Jeff for the rest of this message as he contextualizes it today's world.
For our 25th episode, we have Johnny Lazarus to talk about games 1 and 2. A preview of games 3 and 4. Also player recaps what they need to do to win the series, the positives, and negatives and how Miller is a rising studThanks for listening! Please rate and review our show on your favorite listening platform. Check out our partner's website at www.insidetherink.com for all your latest hockey news.
In this week's discussion, Christopher and Joseph kick it off by announcing some upcoming guests. Super exciting stuff to look forward to. Of course they also talked about some good topics including: if Jesus helped Lazarus "come out", the members of the church, and preaching Christ crucified vs lofty arguments. As usual this was another good true discussion! #christ #lazarus #comeout #scripture #bible #church #bodyIf you like our content, we ask that you please give it a big thumbs up and share. If you want to stay in the christian loop and learn how to discuss things through the christian world view then please subscribe so you don't miss any topic covered by True Discussion.Follow us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/truediscussionmedia/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/truediscussion/Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWge0h38KVNV7mfb5MlIE4wApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/true-discussion-podcast/id1529597732Spotify: spotify:show:7F4dbmXpgobg03xGCSBSC1
In an hour of trial, the disciples failed despite the privileges they had. They had spent three years in the presence of Christ and seen Lazarus rise from the dead. They set on the mountain and heard the greatest sermon ever preached. They saw the widow's son raised from the dead. In spite of all of this, they still failed at the moment in which Christ needed them the most.--0-00 - The failures of the disciples.-0-52 - They failed despite their position and office.-1-17 - The church often expects too much from its leaders.-2-59 - They failed despite their privileges of being near to Christ.-6-04 - They failed despite the warnings.-9-09 - They failed when they were most needed.--This excerpt was taken from the full sermon, -The Praying Christ and His Humanity-.
Dr. Smriti Zaneveld and Dr. Jacques Zaneveld are the Founders of Lazarus 3D. Their Pre-Sure® (PRE-operative SUrgical REhearsal) models are made with soft silicones and hydrogels that mimic human tissue making them ideal for practicing incisions and sutures. They allow you to practice on a 3D printed, patient-specific replica before operating. Notes from the show: Video of Pre-Sure model: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF1cKjD5C50 Thank you to our podcast sponsors: CausMic: https://www.causemic.com/ PDX Executive Assembly:https://www.pdxexecutiveassembly.com/
Episode 104 Today we welcome the Rev Dr David Wilkinson all the way from Durham, England. Dr Wilkinson is an ordained Methodist minister with PhDs in Systematic Theology and Theoretical Astrophysics. In addition to working for St John's College, he is the project director of “Equipping Christian Leadership in an Age of Science” which seeks to do exactly what the name implies. We talk about their surprising research into Christian leaders' attitudes towards science, how to think about biblical miracles, how to have constructive dialogue, and what happens when you put bishops in a room full of humanoid robots. This is an engaging, heartfelt, and inspiring conversation, and we're excited to bring it to you. ECLAS - https://www.eclasproject.org/ Reid, Lydia and Wilkinson, David. (2021.) ‘Building Enthusiasm and Overcoming Fear: Engaging with Christian Leaders in an Age of Science', Zygon 56 (4). https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/toc/14679744/2021/56/4 Support this podcast on Patreon at https://www.patreon.com/DowntheWormholepodcast More information at https://www.downthewormhole.com/ produced by Zack Jackson music by Zack Jackson and Barton Willis Check out Zack and Nichole's new podcast "Reimagining Faith with the Pastors Jackson" here... https://www.patreon.com/reimaginingfaith https://reimaginingfaith.podbean.com/ Transcript This transcript was automatically generated by www.otter.ai, and as such contains errors (especially when multiple people are talking). As the AI learns our voices, the transcripts will improve. We hope it is helpful even with the errors. Zack Jackson 00:00 Hey there, Zack here. Before we get to today's episode, which is so good, by the way, I wanted to let you know that my wife, Nicole, and I just launched a new podcast called reimagining faith with the pastor's Jackson. I haven't really shared a whole lot about this on the podcast yet. But we both just quit our church jobs, and are in the process of planting a new faith community called Open Table United Church of Christ. At this new faith community were committed to being theologically progressive, locally minded with Jesus at the center. We're starting from scratch. And we are rethinking every part about what it means to be a community of faith in this particular moment in history. We are really excited about the ways that the Spirit is moving among our little team. And we wanted a way to share that with you all as well. Hence, the reimagining faith podcast, we'll be posting new episodes every week, delving into our particular convictions, telling stories, interviewing difference makers and giving you an inside peek into the messy and ridiculous process of planting a church that is not quite a church, but it's also kind of a church, but not really, you know, it'll probably make a lot more sense after you hear a few episodes of it. So why don't you just go ahead and subscribe. Just search for reimagining faith with the pastor's Jackson wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you want to help us expand to this work, you can support us at patreon.com/reimagining faith. And now, on to the podcast. You are listening to the down the wormhole podcast exploring the strange and fascinating relationship between science and religion. Our guest today is the current principal of St. John's College Durham and a professor in the Department of theology and religion. He has PhDs in both theoretical astrophysics and systematic theology, having served as both a Methodist minister and an academic professor. He's also the project director of equipping Christian leadership in an age of science, which is a project whose goals are near and dear to my heart. And I'm sure many of yours as well. It is my privilege to introduce the Reverend David Wilkinson. Welcome to the podcast. Thank David Wilkinson 02:19 you, Zack, it's so lovely to be here. Lovely to talk to you. Zack Jackson 02:24 Yes, I'm so glad that we were able to coordinate across the ocean, get our time zones correct and, and that you're able to be with us today I am fascinated by just the breadth of the work that you have done and that you are doing with the organizations that you're associated with. And so, again, it's an honor to have you here with us. So I mentioned in that that introduction, equipping Christian leadership in an age of science, or EC L A s do you do pronounce the acronym when when you're in a company, David Wilkinson 03:01 about team pronounces it in class, and part of our team pronounces it at class. And we haven't come to agreement on what the correct pronunciation is. So I'm happy with the project. Zack Jackson 03:15 Did any of you consider switching the acronym the words around so it would spell something like Eclair or something that well, David Wilkinson 03:22 as you can see, remember and see from me, I'm very open to a close and as many as possible, probably too many for me. But, I mean, you know, sometimes theology and science is dominated by some of these acronyms. I think what we've been concerned about has been that sense of equipping Christian leadership. And about almost 10 years ago, my friend and colleague Tom McLeish, who's a theoretical physicist and a lay theologian, and I were speculating about what happened when senior Christian leaders, such as bishops, or leaders of other denominations, or leaders of parachurch organizations, those organizations that span different churches, were asked about science. And one of the things that we noticed was that senior church leaders often responded with fear, or negativity, or silence. And the problem with that is that then those who serve as Christian leaders under them, if they come from a scientific background, if your senior leader responds with fear or negativity or silence, then that doesn't really affirm what you're bringing to ministry, in terms of your interest or passion about science. And then that ripples down into congregations, where disciples who live out their lives with a vocation to be scientists, technologists are in Engineers, they're not affirmed in their vocation. And of course, that then ripples out to reinforce this very dominant model of relationship between science and religion, that conflict model of science and religion or independence, that the two have to be separated. And so we thought, Is there a project to be done where we can equip Christian leaders to engage with science with joy, with humility, with confidence with excitement? And that would have a ripple down effect throughout the church? Zack Jackson 05:36 Yes, I mentioned I resonate with this. This is the this is the project that I'm working on for my doctrine ministry program right now, creating resources for pastors to engage, to equip them to have these conversations because it is just so important. So in what ways have since you started this program? How have you been able to start equipping leaders, David Wilkinson 06:00 one of the things we first realized sack was the importance of personal relationships and conversations. And so we started with, with conferences, where we would invite a small group of senior leaders, intentionally inviting them to come here to Durham. And we would take them into science departments, where we introduce them to world class scientists. Now, sometimes, in this work, organizations will choose a scientist who happens to be a Christian. We didn't do that. We just went for world class scientists, whatever their religious backgrounds, and we threw the bishops into their labs. And we got these people to talk about their own science and their work. And it was just terrific from cosmology and simulating universes through to biology, genetics, we even had one wonderful incident where we took 30 bishops into one of our engineering labs here in Durham, where we have small robots, six of them, artificial intelligent robots, humanoid robots, and the bishops were kind of pressed against the wall. Worried about this, these little robots who are wandering round, and the robots went up to the bishops, and started to talk to them. And suddenly the bishops move towards the center of the room, as they started conversing with these robots. And I wish I'd had a video camera to show you. And in a sense, we start with with bishops who are a little worried about science. And slowly they move into the center. And part of that is talking to research students, and talking with professors, and actually seeing that these folk work in science, because they're passionate about finding out about the universe, or they're passionate about helping society and other people, that some of the the big, bad images of science are not quite true when you meet scientists themselves. And we brought into that conversation, then theologians into the conference, to help decode some of the issues of play within the interplay of science and theology. And so this bringing together of people to talk together, and what we found, was after the sessions, the bishops were thrilled to have encountered science. And the scientists were thrilled to encounter bishops, and other senior church leaders who took science seriously. And many of the scientists without any Christian commitment turned up at the bar later on in the conference, to talk more with the bishops. I think there's something really important about that kind of interaction of people, that learning not just about the science in the abstract, but science in terms of it being done by scientists. And then we thought to ourselves, Well, there's one or two other things that we really need to do about this. So we've had a research strand, where we've interviewed 1000, clergy and a number of bishops and senior church leaders about what they really think about science. That's been an important thing. And we might want to go on to some of those findings in a little bit. We've also followed the US in a program called Science for seminaries and working with church leaders are beginning of their ministries. And then we wanted to provide some model situations where people could see how a local congregation could use the scientists within their congregations to do something fruitful for the kingdom, either for the church or for the community. And we call that scientists in congregations. And that's a program that's been used in lots of different parts of the world. And then the final strand that we've done, which is peculiar to the UK, in the UK, the Church of England is the established church. It has a lot of political and media presence. There are bishops in the House of Lords, for example, scrutinizing legislation. And so we embedded a team member within the church of England's work in that area, to assist on some of the questions such as fracking, or AI, that are going through legislation to help Christian leaders give sensible voices within the public debate. So those are some of the things that we've been really excited by Zach. Zack Jackson 11:07 Oh, wow. Yeah, that that sounds very exciting. I would, I would venture to say that most congregations have at least one professional scientist within it, whether they, they're open about that or not. But I'm curious about the ways that your program has, has used scientists within congregations, how are you using those those gifts of people? David Wilkinson 11:32 I think, I think that's a really crucial question. And so let me give you some for instances of some of the projects that we've supported. So we've supported a project called Take your vicar into the lab, where a number of scientists in the congregation have said to their church leader, why don't you come into our workplace, and we'll tell you about what we do day by day. And again, we're talking about people with vocation, and a very different context to what happens in the church on a Sunday. One group of scientists have worked with a professional theatre group drama group, to write a play on artificial intelligence. And this play will, will tour the country, the 45 minute one act play, then there'll be a coffee break. And then into the venue will come a number of local scientists who work in the area of AI for a question answered on AI and religion and Christianity. Another group we've worked with, has produced some resources for something that we call messy science. Now, in the UK, there's a very strong program called Messy Church, which is a way of doing church, for families with young children. And that involves some crafts, and making things. And what we realized was that actually, there are a number of children who are much happier to blow things up in science experiments, to make craft activities. And so we've we've created a book called Messy science, which is scientific experiments that you can do and as part of Messy Church, or indeed, that you can do for an all the family or all age worship on a Sunday, which involves some of the fun of science. Why, for instance, you can take a beaker full of water, and just put a piece of paper at the bottom of it, turn it over, and the water doesn't fall out most of the time. And so these kinds of things is about using the gifts and the passion and the interests of scientists. And I think you're right, like I think virtually every congregation has scientists or teachers of science or technology or engineering within it. But what we're not good at doing is affirming those gifts. So some of the churches I go to, if a young person says the Lord has called me to seminary or Bible college, the congregation will say hallelujah, they will bring that young person to the front. They will so we're going to pray and lay hands on you. And here's a big envelope with money in it to support your expenses. But if a young person in that same congregation says, I'm going to go and study chemistry, I wonder whether that congregation also brings the young person to the front, lay hands on them and gives them a big envelope to help them with their expenses. And I think that's about out, saying science as a gift from God. And to be a scientist is as much a vocation as it is to be a pastor, or to be a missionary. Zack Jackson 15:11 Wow. That is a that is profound. It's I don't think that any churches out there would affirm a child's choosing to become a scientist the way they would be so proud of our little, our little boy who's grown up to be a pastor, and we'd love to help you out in any way we can. But a scientist is essentially seeking out God in just empirical ways through the creation as opposed to David Wilkinson 15:40 theology, Kepler, the great astronomer, once said that science is thinking God's thoughts after him. And what a wonderful way of looking at the universe and that guy became a Christian at the age of 17, just before going up to university to study physics. And early in my Christian life, I kind of realized that if if I say that Jesus is the Lord, then he is Lord of all, not just what I do on a Sunday, but what I do in terms of my interest in mathematics and astrophysics. And so what does it mean to be disciple within that area, as well as what I do in terms of lifestyle with money and relationships, and all the rest of it. And I think that's an area that the church hasn't been good at, in an area that we can work out and help Christian leaders to see science as gift. And the responsibility that that brings. Zack Jackson 16:42 Yes, I wish that more churches had that kind of had that kind of understanding, you know, that that kind of heart and belief. But according to the research that you all have done. That was there was a paper that was published in zeigen, Journal of religion and science, recently, looking at the disconnect between religious leaders interest in science and their willingness to talk about it publicly. There were some very interesting findings in there, would you care to tell us a little bit about David Wilkinson 17:17 Yes, absolutely. And some things that surprised us. We wanted to serve a clergy first of all, and we surveyed about 1000 of them from all different churches and backgrounds. And one of the most surprising things was how often they find themselves talking about science, or engaging with people about science in their ministry. Now, we didn't expect that to be the case. Although looking back on my own ministry, I was a pastor for a decade, in full time, work leading a church. I remember, it was in Liverpool, just off Penny Lane for those who remember the Beatles. And we used to run a luncheon club, where, on a Wednesday lunchtime, we would gather together some elderly folk and provide them with a fairly basic but nutritious and wholesome lunch. And I remember going to a lady who was very elderly, and left school at the age of 14. And I would normally wander around and say hello to people. And I sat down at her table. And she looked at me and said, Now then David, she said, What's this Stephen Hawking and quantum gravity all about? And what does this mean for God? Now, I think sometimes we underestimate the kinds of questions that people have. And so we found that clergy were often addressing questions about the environment, questions about genetics, questions about what does it mean to be human? These big questions, and yet, often, they felt a little bit of a lack of confidence in engaging with these questions. And I think that partly comes from this conflict model, which is so embedded within Western tradition, which you found in the New Atheists. So for Richard Dawkins and others, you now find in many stand up comedians, who also represent the conflict model. But I think sometimes it's also about those subtle messages from the church that has said, Beware of science. And they've often coupled science with images of the Tower of Babel with trying to replace God or atheism. So I think we found that I think we also found and this is, this is something which really fascinated me. And that is the Sometimes the how why distinction becomes a avoidance mechanism for deeper theological questions. What I mean by that, is that when we talk about science and theology, and I often do this myself, we can talk about science about the how, and theology about the why, when it comes to the origin of the universe, for example, my area of, of work and science and, you know, quantum gravity, and is the how of God doing it. Questions of purpose and meaning or value is why, and that's a useful first order distinction. But we found that many senior church leaders were using it as a way to avoid some of the deeper questions. So if you use the how wide distinction, you can perhaps avoid the question, well, how does God really work in the universe? How does God work in healing in miracles in prayer? How is God involved in the laws of physics or not? Now, those can be quite scary questions to folk. But they're important questions for many people. And then I think we I think the third thing that we found was sometimes this fear of certain ways that science has been used, protect, particularly when it comes to theories of evolution. So although there was an openness to assessing scientific theories, there was a sense of those who have used the post Darwinian controversies to argue against Christianity, and to use some scientific theories and evolution and sociobiology. Sometimes I used to argue that once you have a scientific understanding of something, it's nothing but that. So religion could be seen and the way that it's developed, and its socio biological, biological origin. But then that quick move to say, and that's all it is. That's the mistake. So those are some of the things that came out of the research. Zack Jackson 22:23 So I hear the the one idea that science provides the nuts and bolts the understanding of how things work, and religion then gives it the meaning, right, I've heard the illustration that you can learn all you can about the molecular makeup of a chocolate cake, and you can know all about its compounds, but no part of the science can tell you that it's a birthday cake, I'm sorry, that that that then has to come from the meaning. And then I also hear you mentioning, sort of at the end there about the God of the gaps that God develops as a way of explaining the things that we don't understand and has a way of helping us to sleep at night. Giving us a sense of control over the crops, as it were or the movement of the stars and the future and helping us to be less afraid. And as science then explains all of those things, then God gets smaller and smaller and smaller. And that model is just created in such a way that it eliminates itself. It does. And both of those two ways of understanding God are so prevalent, and they both are so limiting. What how do you how do you navigate this world? How do you hold both your faith and your understanding of science in intention in tandem? David Wilkinson 23:47 Yeah. And the sack you've put your finger on it? I think and it's a question that goes back to an old book written by Jeb Phillips, many years ago, which was a book with the title your God is too small. You see, the problem with with God of the Gaps is, as you rightly said, God is too small. And the God that I see in Jesus is not a God who hides in small gaps of scientific ignorance. This is the Lord of all, who is the one who sustains every physical process within the universe. So for me, God is the Creator and Sustainer of the laws of physics. That's the first thing to say. I think secondly, God is big enough that he can sometimes do unusual things, beyond his normal ways of working. And therefore, both as a scientist and a theologian, I'm open to miracle. I'm open to God doing unusual things because I think God is big enough to to go beyond his normal ways of working and special prayer. Within SOS special events, I think the third thing that really helps me to navigate some of this sack is going back to Jesus time and time again. I remember, as a young research student, I've been on a conference in the middle of the summer in the University of Brighton, and Sussex and England. And we were the only people in the university, a group of 40, astrophysics PhD students. And there was only one pub. And so every evening we'd all end up in the same pub. And I remember sitting down with a with a colleague, very, very bright astrophysicist, who within half an hour, had proved to me that God didn't exist. I mean, he just argued against with all the classic arguments against the existence of God. And I remember wandering back to, to the small bedroom I had, and and thinking, Well, you know, I've only been a Christian two or three years. This guy's convinced me that the intellectual argumentation means that God doesn't exist, what am I going to do? And it was that point that by, by my bed on the bedside table was a Bible. I just opened the Bible, and I read again, the Gospels, and I become a Christian, because I'd seen in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, God Himself walk in the pages of history. And there are many questions that I don't have the answers to, there are many intellectual conundrums about the problem of evil, or about how does God actually work in the world, which I don't have easy, simplistic philosophical answers to. But what I see in Jesus is a God who becomes a human being and lives amongst us, in the space time history, a God who participates in the consequences of suffering and evil, he bears them as well as I do. A God who gives me hope, in terms of bodily resurrection, going beyond our normal accepted patterns of what's possible in the world. And a God who actually has a historical record in Palestine, that you and I can sit down and discuss, we might not come to similar conclusions about it. But the data is there for us to discuss it. And so my understanding of science and theology is never simply what we might call the old, big arguments for the existence of God, the design argument, or the First Cause Argument, if I'm authentically Christian, then I have to bring into the conversation. God who reveals Himself in Jesus. And that's been an important part of, of my journey in trying to navigate some of these difficult questions. Zack Jackson 28:14 As a pastor for the past eight and a half years, I not only get questions, nearly weekly, from, especially from the conference, and these teenagers who are thinking through these things in school, but also the adults I, I feel questions from my colleagues almost constantly, who likewise have people asking these questions, and they do not feel equipped to answer them. And so they, they give them you know, shrug shoulders, and I'm sorry, this is just what I believe I'll try to find resources for you. And one of the things that comes up quite often is miracles, when it seemingly when God breaks the rules, yeah. Because even if somebody who values God and values science, they will often just find naturalistic explanations for things. I mean, famously, Thomas Jefferson cut out all of the references of, of miracles in his Bible, and it was much smaller at that point. You know, for example, that if we believe that Jesus in the wedding in Cana and the book of John turned water into wine, using natural processes, I mean, just the fusion of atoms would have created so much energy, it would have leveled all of the Middle East, you know, in a nuclear explosion, and clearly that did not happen. So, either there was a sort of social miracle in which Jesus inspired people to run out to the liquor store, or there is something else happening something super natural. You've done a little bit of work into into miracles and what happens in prayer and things like that. Do you have any insights that you could offer to As clergy out there, David Wilkinson 30:01 well, I have some insights, whether they're useful or not is another question. Zack Jackson 30:07 Oh, the story of my life, I'll put that on my tombstone. David Wilkinson 30:11 I think the first thing to say is that I want to take the gospel writers seriously. And I think sometimes Western scholarship has been rather patronizing to the writers of the Gospel by saying that they simply have rewritten the stories of social miracles, in terms of supernatural miracles, you know, and so, even more extreme would be those who've written that Jesus walking on the waters was actually because he was on a sand bank at the time. Well, I mean, you know, fishermen would know where the sand banks would be, and things of that sort, I think, the Gospel writers are being authentic in terms of what they believed, and I want to take that seriously. And then secondly, there is a granularity about some of the gospel reports, which suggests to me that they aren't simply made up to express theological truth about Jesus. So for instance, you mentioned the wedding at Cana, one of the one of the extraordinary things about that miracle is that Jesus turned between 120 gallons, 280 gallons of water into wine. Now, that that's, that's not the kind of usual detail that you would expect, in terms of if you'd simply wanted a miracle of water into wine, there's something really quite extraordinary about that unexpected about it. And I think there are a number of the miracle stories which just have that ring of truth about them. Now, that's the biblical scholarship at one level, which I think is important for us to do. I think then, as a scientist, I want to come with a number of convictions. The first is that 20th century physics tells us that the universe is far more subtle, and subtle than we ever imagined it to be. We live with the legacy of Isaac Newton's clockwork universe, where the universe is picture herbal, and predictable. And so the transformation of God has rules which he can't break, is based on that clockwork universe. But in the 20th century, as you well know, quantum theory, and then chaotic or complex systems, like the weather, we discovered that actually, the universe is not as picture trouble or as predictable as that clockwork universe was. Now, I don't want to push that too far to say, well, this is where God works in quantum systems. But I do want to take seriously as John Polkinghorne used to say, these things remind us of the danger of the tyranny of model of common sense. Our everyday experience and common sense isn't a good guide to the way the universe actually is, or indeed how God might work in the universe. And then I think coming back to that sense of the God who created the laws, has agency to work in through and beyond the laws is a very important theological question. And that maintaining of some limited agency, for God to work means that, that I'm open to God work in unusual ways. Now, all of that is not to say that I don't think there's an interesting question, as a scientist about where the energy comes from. I want to ask that question. And as a scientist, I want to say, when people claim evidence for healing, or evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, what is that evidence? And let's have an honest and serious conversation about it. I think that's important. But I don't think that all of those things need to be talked about in the round. I don't think that one of these things rules out the possibility of miracles. And so I know that's a very long answer to a very succinct question. But I think sometimes we get ourselves fascinated with wanting to give one line answers to actually very difficult questions. And one of the real problems of miracle for me, is actually not besides The real problem of miracle for me is, if God can work by miracle, why can't he do it more often? And in more serious ways, you know, so the Christian who says, I drove to the supermarket, and it was raining, and there was no parking spaces. But I prayed to the Lord, and suddenly a parking space was there for me. Now, apparently, I want to say to that Christian sister or brother, well, wonderful. But, Lord, why provide a parking space when actually, you know for that particular sister or brother, they could have done with a little extra walk, compared to what's happening with COVID? Or what's happening in Ukraine? And that's the problem of evil. And sec, I don't have any real answer to that. That's one of the big questions that I have. For when I see the Lord face to face. But I'm not prepared to reject the biblical evidence or the scientific openness. Because I can't fully understand the problem of evil, but I want to take it seriously. Zack Jackson 36:16 That is a fantastic point. I think our anyone out there who's a religious leader has probably heard that second argument far more, you know, you hear stories of healing, and then I prayed for my mother to be healed and she wasn't healed. And then, then you have, you know, is the problem, my fate? Did I not pray properly? Did does, am I not favored by God? David Wilkinson 36:41 And that's profound, profound, isn't it and that, and what that means, and that's where, for me, the what I sometimes call the messiness of the Bible, is really important. Because, you know, we have instances within the Bible itself, when Paul, for example, prays three times, about this thorn in the flesh that he has, and he's not healed. When, when we have this unusual incident of when Jesus is called by Mary and Martha, that his friend Lazarus is sick. And Jesus didn't immediately go and heal Lazarus. There's indications in Mark's gospel of times when the whole town or village were brought for healing. And Mark says, many of them were healed, not all of them. Now, that for me actually embeds this problem, not just in our experience, but there is a mystery going on within scripture itself. And, and the thing with Scripture is, it doesn't always give us the answer. I mean, I would love it. If Paul had provided not yet another letter, but a chapter entitled frequently asked questions. been brilliant. The apostle Paul had had a chapter on frequently answered questions, asked questions. And, and one of them would be the problem of evil. But of course, Scripture works often in narratives, in telling of testimony of story. And it's not the place where we get easy answers and philosophical theology. But it's important that our philosophical theology takes those stories seriously. Zack Jackson 38:42 I can't imagine Paul trying to succinctly answer any question. Yes, let's say this is the man who spoke for so long that a boy fell asleep and fell out a window. Which, by the way, you know, he was able to raise this child back from the dead, but couldn't cure his own problem. preacher once told me that Lazarus still died. Yes. And that that sticks with me anytime I think about miracles. So aside from that, aside from the miracles, what do you think it's important that religious leaders should understand and, and in terms of science, and how can they possibly keep up with all of the new research not being scientists themselves? David Wilkinson 39:34 I think both of those questions are really important. So let me take the second one. First, I'll come back to the first one. I don't think this is about equipping Christian leaders in terms of knowledge of science. I think this is about changing attitudes. So that as new science comes about, new discoveries are made new questions arise. Most religious leaders can encounter it, not with fear. But with a sense of, first of all, that this doesn't undermine faith. And second, that they already have resources within their own congregations that can help them. And we've talked already about the role and the vocation of those who are lay Christians and scientists. This is a terrific resource that God has given to every church leader from, you know, teenagers who are fascinated with the questions of science through to those who are at cutting edge research level. And so part of I think the change in attitudes, is that the church leader begins to see that ministry in this area is not just about them. But it's about the body of Christ together, relating to some of these questions. But in order to access that the initial response to science has to be changed away from fear into a humble listening to what's going on. Now, I think, to come back to the to the first question, I think, then there are some big questions for the next decade. And I think one of the biggest questions, which you and I have talked about before, is the question of what it means to be human. You know, I think we've gone through some of the interest and some of the big questions about origins, Big Bang, evolution, those types of questions, Christians still have different views on them. And we'll still keep continuing talking about them. But the central question of what it means to be human, I think is going to be highlighted in lots of different ways. For example, will artificial intelligence become conscious at some stage? If we discover extraterrestrial intelligence? What does that mean for human beings? The mind brain relationship, as we know more about what the relationship between mind and brain is all about? What does that mean, to be human? And, you know, even the Human Genome Project, that if I share 67% of my genes with cauliflower, which you can probably tell by looking at me, then, where's the distinction and being human? Now, I think, in lots of different ways in medical science through to what the James Webb Telescope is going to produce. That question of what it means to be human, is a central question for culture, for society, and for theology. Now, I think the great thing about the Christian faith for me, is that actually the question what it means to be human is a central theological question. It's been explored by generations of theologians down the ages. And one of the fascinating things for me is that it's not defined in the Christian tradition, by what I'm made of. It's defined by who I'm related to. So for me, the question of what it means to be human is a gift from God, a gift of intimate relationship, a gift of responsibility, a gift of creativity. So that to be human is not undermined by better understandings of what I'm physically made of, or that there may be other forms of consciousness out there. But that actually, what defines me as unique as a human being, is that God loves me. And God wants to be in relationship with me. And that may not be exclusive. In her there may be other intelligent beings elsewhere in the universe, who knows. But I don't think that's a threat to that central understanding of what it means to be human, or the kind of the shorthand that we use as theologians been made in the image of God. Zack Jackson 44:34 That's beautiful. I, I'm so fascinated by the relationality of the cosmos, that we identify ourselves as a human by our relationship to each other, but we see it down to the fundamental level that 91% of the mass of the nucleus of an atom comes not from the proton and the neutron but from the forces that are generated by their interaction, and everything down to the fundamental Fields up until the galaxy clusters only exist in relation to one another. And if I mean, obviously, I'm, I'm imposing some of the meaning that from being a relational primate primates into the, into the cosmos, but you almost can't help but see the, the, the brushstrokes of a relational creator, in the fact that everything only exists in relation to each other. I David Wilkinson 45:34 think that's right. Second, I mean, let me let me confess to you and to the listeners, that when I was trained first, as a, as a physicist, I thought that physics was the only true science, that chemistry, chemistry was for people who couldn't do physics, biology was for people who couldn't do chemistry. And I won't tell you what I thought of sociology. Now, now, of course, I have repented of such things. Zack Jackson 46:03 For example, other mathematicians out there, for exactly David Wilkinson 46:07 the reason that you've said that when atoms get together in relationship to four molecules, then a new series and levels of reality occurs, which is called chemistry. When those molecules get together and form living beings, a new level of biology emerges. And when human beings get together, a new level, which can only be studied by sociology emerges. And that's that emergent relationality, which you've talked about. And that reminds me as a physicist, that the universe cannot be simply reduced to its constituent parts, you have got to understand its constituent parts, but you can only understand them fully, when you understand the relationality between them, which is exactly the point that you beautifully made. Zack Jackson 47:05 Well, thank you, thank you for the relational work that you're doing. And for that, being at the heart of your mission, understanding that it's not enough to just simply give information to clergy and to scientists, but to build relationships of understanding and mutuality. And that's, that is certainly how we interact. So for all the work that you're doing, through the foundation, through your your writings, and through, you know, the work you do at the college, thank you for for your life's work you're doing, you're doing really important work. And as we kind of ended our time together. Is there anything else that you would like our listeners to know, to take away from this conversation? I've David Wilkinson 47:50 I've enjoyed the conversation immensely. Of course, I think it's important to say one of the fascinating things for me, as always, anything that one is able to achieve as an individual is only as strong as the team that you work with. And one of the great things about the work that we've been doing here in the UK is a combination of collaborations and partnerships between different universities and the Church of England. And the quality of the colleagues that that I work with, who involve scientists, theologians, sociologists, historians. And that's a very important part of understanding science. Science doesn't exist in a pure scientific vacuum. It comes with history that comes with philosophy. Indeed, it's framed for me by theology. And so as we work together, across different disciplines, so our understanding of these things becomes much, much richer. And the problem of divorcing the church from science is partly the way that our culture has divorced arts and humanities, from science. And I think particularly in the UK, that's been the case. And so part of this is a bigger cultural issue, which is valuing all types of human knowledge and how we interact together and learn more as community together. But thank you, Zack, I've really enjoyed this. It's a delight. What a wonderful podcast you doing. And thanks for for the time this afternoon. Zack Jackson 49:35 Absolutely, and if any of our listeners out there are interested in learning more, they can go to E c l a s project.org. There's will be a link in the description if you'd like to learn more about what the equipping Christian leadership in an age of science is doing. There's plenty of videos from your previous conference, there's articles, there are links of places to get involved and to learn more and to help help equip you to do this very important work out in the world. You can also listen to any one of the 100 or so episodes of the podcast previously. We've where we've talked about a lot of these issues more in depth. So, again, thank you, David, for being here. And I wish all the best in all of your future endeavors. David Wilkinson 50:20 Thank you very much.
In an hour of trial, the disciples failed despite the privileges they had. They had spent three years in the presence of Christ and seen Lazarus rise from the dead. » View: The Failures of The Privileged Disciples
Greg talks about resurrected bodies and self-evident glorifications. Episode 962 Greg's new book: Inspired Imperfection Dan's new book: Confident Humility Send Questions To: Dan: @thatdankentTwitter: @reKnewOrg Facebook: ReKnew Email: firstname.lastname@example.org Links: Greg's book:"Crucifixion of the Warrior God" Website: ReKnew.org