Podcast appearances and mentions of Mark Perkins

Today the Pugs welcome Fr. Mark Perkins of St. Dunstan's Academy in Virginia onto the show! St. Dunstan's brings together Christian formation in the Anglican tradition alongside an education in the classics, skilled trades, and agriculture. Its vision is to help boys grow into mature Christian manhood through rites of passage and through a deep engagement with embodied reality. It’s a wonderful vision for the education of boys. We hope you enjoy the show! Learn more about St. Dunstan's Academy: https://stdunstansacademy.org/ Support the Pugcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thetheologypugcast?fbclid=IwAR17UHhfzjphO52C_kkZfursA_C784t0ldFix0wyB4fd-YOJpmOQ3dyqGf8

Today the Pugs welcome Fr. Mark Perkins of St. Dunstan's Academy in Virginia onto the show! St. Dunstan's brings together Christian formation in the Anglican tradition alongside an education in the classics, skilled trades, and agriculture. Its vision is to help boys grow into mature Christian manhood through rites of passage and through a deep engagement with embodied reality. It's a wonderful vision for the education of boys. We hope you enjoy the show!Learn more about St. Dunstan's Academy: https://stdunstansacademy.org/Support the Pugcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thetheologypugcast?fbclid=IwAR17UHhfzjphO52C_kkZfursA_C784t0ldFix0wyB4fd-YOJpmOQ3dyqGf8

Today the Pugs welcome Fr. Mark Perkins of St. Dunstan's Academy in Virginia onto the show! St. Dunstan's brings together Christian formation in the Anglican tradition alongside an education in the classics, skilled trades, and agriculture. Its vision is to help boys grow into mature Christian manhood through rites of passage and through a deep engagement with embodied reality. It’s a wonderful vision for the education of boys. We hope you enjoy the show! Learn more about St. Dunstan's Academy: https://stdunstansacademy.org/ Support the Pugcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thetheologypugcast?fbclid=IwAR17UHhfzjphO52C_kkZfursA_C784t0ldFix0wyB4fd-YOJpmOQ3dyqGf8

Today the Pugs welcome Fr. Mark Perkins of St. Dunstan's Academy in Virginia onto the show! St. Dunstan's brings together Christian formation in the Anglican tradition alongside an education in the classics, skilled trades, and agriculture. Its vision is to help boys grow into mature Christian manhood through rites of passage and through a deep engagement with embodied reality. It’s a wonderful vision for the education of boys. We hope you enjoy the show! Learn more about St. Dunstan's Academy: https://stdunstansacademy.org/ Support the Pugcast on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thetheologypugcast?fbclid=IwAR17UHhfzjphO52C_kkZfursA_C784t0ldFix0wyB4fd-YOJpmOQ3dyqGf8

In this episode, host Phil Treadwell travels to Ohio to sit with Mark Perkins, CEO of Pivot Realty. Mark and Phil discuss the mindset and habits that drive success, emphasizing personal responsibility, discipline, and eliminating excuses. They explore how AI enhances efficiency for top performers while entitlement and inaction keep others stuck. Taking consistent action compounds over time, leading to extraordinary results, while simplifying tasks and focusing on daily execution create momentum. Success isn't about talent or luck—it's about mindset, discipline, and showing up. Those who commit to doing the work will always come out ahead. 00:21 A Special Episode 04:35 Get Rid of the Excuses 08:45 Attitude or Actions? 12:10 Are You Going To or Not? 17:00 What the Uncommon Have in Common 26:20 Feelings are Feedback 30:18 Worth It 36:45 Do It as if You Own the Business  41:45 It's a Sense of Entitlement 47:30 The Opposite is Responsibility 51:40 The Word that Belonged to 2024 55:50 AI = Replacing Professionals? 59:55 Ordinary with a Little Extra 01:03:00 Owning vs. Renting 01:12:40 The Philosophy of Phil 01:16:10 Urgency Combined with Pace of Work 01:20:20 Listen and Contemplate Listen to Mark's Podcast: The Necessary Entrepreneur Connect with Mark: LinkedIn | Instagram REGISTER FOR THE FREE M1 ACADEMY MASTERMIND GROUP If you are enjoying the MME podcast, please take a second and LEAVE US A REVIEW. And JOIN the M1A Text Community: 214-225-5696

"When you keep promises to the most important person on Earth, which is you, and combine it with the power of one more, you will stack up your wins, build your self-confidence, and set yourself up for one hell of an awesome life." - Ed MylettNational Account Executive with The Pavement Group and cohost of the "The Perks in Paving with Paige and Mark Perkins" podcast Mark Perkins is joining us on the show today and there is a lot to talk about, so we're not wasting any time.  Mark and Jay are discussing not allowing the things that are going on in your universe to get in the way of you doing the job you have for the client at hand, being able to understand that you aren't going to know everything when you start a new position and you have to be willing to take the time to learn, and remembering that communication is always the leading factor to a good workplace dynamic.  We hope you enjoy this episode of The Culture Matters Podcast.

When discussing any task that was accomplishable but time-consuming, one of my old man's goto phrases was, “Hell, you can stand on your head and gargle peanut butter for (insert amount of time), so you better get to it.”It's a phrase my son's and I still use today, and while there is more jest than earnestness in its use, there are times in life - be they professional or personal - when we all have to gargle peanut butter.And while in most professions, and hopefully all relationships, the goal is to get to a point where this ISN'T the case, when someone decides to become a trial attorney they are signing up for a job that guarantees there will be times when work cannot be ‘balanced'. But as my guest and I discussed this week, just because we know we're going to have to “gargle peanut butter” at some point - say, when a major case goes to trial - that doesn't mean we have to treat everything that crosses our desk like it's a top-priority. As a former prosecutor and trial attorney whose firm just celebrated its 25th year in business, Mark Perkins shares how he had to learn these lessons the hard way. In his words, after powering through much of his career on adrenaline, he began to feel off. But the journey it would lead him on was filled with valuable lessons on kindness and the power of vulnerability when it comes to dealing with mental-health.It was a wonderful and story-filled conversation that, if anything, has plenty of laughs. As always, enjoy the show.

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In this milestone 200th episode of Mortgage Marketing Expert, host Phil Treadwell celebrates by giving you a peek at his new podcast, "Business of Success," with a compelling interview featuring Mark Perkins, the founder and CEO of Pivot Realty. This episode delves into Mark's dynamic approach to real estate, exploring his journey from starting Pivot Realty to becoming a leader in the industry. Mark shares valuable insights on entrepreneurship, strategic growth, and the mindset required to achieve success while balancing life's demands. Don't miss this special episode that offers inspiration for anyone looking to excel in their field. Episode Breakdown: 00:20 - The Business of Success 05:50 - How Mark Perkins Defines Success 09:25 - Where Fulfillment Fits In 11:30 - A “Why” is Important 13:40 - Success is Hard 16:45 - Commit to Your Outcome When You Start 17:50 - Life Doesn't Go to Plan 20:30 - Entrepreneurship Advice 24:15 - Intraperneurs 26:20 - Going All In, While Going All Out 28:35 - What the Uncommon Have in Common 33:30 - Can Greatness Be Taught 37:05 - You Win or Your Learn 41:20 - The Role of Failure 46:05 - No Regrets 49:25 - Would You Have Done It the Same Way? 51:45 - How Mark's Why Evolved 54:05 - Do the Work 60:05 - Believe in the Outcome 62:50 - Care About Other People More than Yourself Connect with Mark Perkins: Instagram | Necessary Entreprenuer Podcast LEARN MORE ABOUT M1 ACADEMY COACHING If you are enjoying the MME podcast, please take a second and LEAVE US A REVIEW, and JOIN our text group: 214-225-5696

"Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there.  Eighty are just targets.  Nine are the real fighters and we are lucky to have them for they make the battle.  Ah, but one; one is a warrior and he will bring the others back." - HeraclitusFounder of Pivot Realty Group and host of "The Necessary Entrepreneur" podcast Mark Perkins is joining us the show today and this is definitely a guy you're going to want to pay attention to!  We're kicking things off with a few words on the importance of dedication in all you do; whether you're mowing your lawn or growing your business, dedicating yourself to doing a good job makes all of the difference.  Jay and Mark are going on to discuss the difference between desiring material things and having the ability to get them, the Golden Rule, podcasting, and even retirement.  Mark is a true success story, so make sure you're ready to learn on this episode of The Culture Matters Podcast!

This week, we're joined by Mark Perkins of the Necessary Entrepreneur Podcast. You can check his show out at TheNecessaryEntrepreneur.com - I obviously would recommend episode 59 since I was the guest there. Mark is one of the best interviewers I've ever met, so we sat down to talk about some of what goes on behind the scenes of podcasts, and what goes through our heads when we're trying to create something interesting. We get to try the new Black Cherry from Hoist, as well as some flavors from Wilde Chips! All this and more on the Jungle Jim's Podcast!

A distinctive figure in the New Zealand musical landscape, Delaney Davidson has dropped yet another album.  Out of My Head has a more theatrical feel, co-producer Mark Perkins' synth atmospheres creating a cinematic soundscape for the twelve-track album.  The album is filled with songs written over the global pandemic lockdown period, with notable guest appearances from Marlon Williams and Reb Fountain.  Despite the circumstances in which they were written, music reviewer Estelle Clifford told Jack Tame that there's a kind of freedom and joy to a lot of the tunes.  “I love it,” she said, giving the album a 10/10.  LISTEN ABOVE See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this insightful episode of Mortgage Marketing Expert, host Phil Treadwell invites industry experts Marjorie Adam, Dustin Brohm, and Mark Perkins to examine the impacts of the NAR Lawsuit and the impending settlement on the mortgage and real estate sectors. The guests delve into the lawsuit's implications, providing a nuanced analysis of the potential changes and challenges that could reshape these industries. Drawing from their extensive experience, they offer valuable perspectives, dissecting the legal complexities and forecasting the likely effects on industry practices and market dynamics. This episode is a must-listen for professionals seeking to understand and navigate the evolving landscape of the mortgage and real estate industries.   00:25 - Meet Marjorie Adam 01:55 - NAR Lawsuit 05:30 - What the Lawsuit is NOT 07:25 - Is This Good For the Industry 14:20 - Who Falls Outside of this Settlement 15:45 - Are Buyers Agents Gone Now 21:55 - Where is the $ Coming From For Settlement 26:30 - One Tip For Mortgage Pros to Help Realtor Partners 27:45 - Connect with Marjorie 29:25 - Dustin Brohm, The Massive Agent 31:45 - This is NOT a Speed Bump for the Industry 35:00 - Buyer's Compensation 38:55 - Educating the Agents & Consumers 39:55 - Strengthening Relationships Between Mortgage Pros and Agents 45:35 - Make Sure You Have it RIGHT 47:30 - Connect with Dustin 48:00 - Mark Perkins 49:10 - What Will This Lawsuit Do to the Industry 54:10 - How Real Estate Culture Is Going to Change 57:10 - Loan Officers Need to Level Up Too 01:00:30 - How Do You Teach Greatness 01:05:00 - It's Okay To Not Be Great, But… 01:06:40 - Connect with Mark   Connect with Marjorie: @themarjorieadamteamrealtors MarjorieAdamTeam.com Real Estate Unscripted Podcast   Connect with Dustin: Massive Agent Podcast @massiveagent   Connect with Mark: The Necessary Entrepreneur @markperkinsprg   LEARN MORE ABOUT M1 ACADEMY COACHING If you are enjoying the MME podcast, please take a second and LEAVE US A REVIEW, and JOIN our text group: 214-225-5696

Andrew and Isaac interview Fr Mark Perkins about a new Anglican boy's boarding school in Virginia. Read Fr Eric PArker's article about St Dunstan's Academy here. Visit the St Dunstan's Academy website. More information on Christian Halls here.

Join us as guest speaker Mark Perkins opens the Scriptures to Matthew 8:5-13 and the record of Jesus healing the Centurion's servant

https://merecatholics.locals.com/ Website: http://jonahsaller.com/ https://twitter.com/jonahmsaller Email: jonah@jonahsaller.com PO Box 1204 Maricopa, AZ 85139-9900 ——————————————————————— Intro Music: Scott Anderson --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/jonahsaller/support

Whether you're a seasoned collector or a newcomer looking to buy your first classic car, this podcast is a must-listen. Join Auction Specialists Mathew Priddy and Dominic Lake as they dive into the fascinating world of classic cars. In this episode, they are joined by the one and only Sarah Crabtree, an expert in classics, to discuss her top five picks from the Historics archives. We have an exciting Volvo Quiz lined up for you, testing your knowledge of this iconic brand, a special guest appearance from Historics owner Mark Perkins. Plus, we'll be delving into the lots featured in our upcoming auction, including a Range Rover that may have once graced the ownership of none other than Queen Elizabeth II. Imagine owning a piece of royal history! If you're considering purchasing your next classic car, mark your calendar for our upcoming sale on the 22nd of July at Windsorview Lakes. Be sure to check out the full listings here

Mark Perkins Owner of Perkins Insurance AgencyMark owns Perkins Insurance Agency with locations in Abilene, Eastland, and in Franklin, Tennessee. We talk about running a business that doesn't sell something sexy (aka insurance); How you bring enthusiasm to your business team; How you identify what you as a leader are weak at and how you fill the gap; Two things a professor taught him that still guide him in his work today; How you balance a natural drive to expand with tempered advice and steady growth; How Franklin differs from Abilene and what they're doing well that Abilene can learn and improve upon. Enjoy!

Mark Perkins joins me again like he has many times in the past to talk Mando 3.6 (Chapter 22) Guns for hire.

Does God choose and regenerate those who will believe in Him-- Listen to this lesson to learn about the false Calvinistic belief that because of man's sin nature he is unable to make the decision to trust in Christ so must be chosen by God. Hear a number of principles that explain what faith means and that everyone has the option to believe that Christ died on the cross for them. See that after someone believes in Christ they are regenerated or born again. At the end of the lesson hear an engrossing missionary report from Tahiti on what is happening there by Mark Perkins.

Does God choose and regenerate those who will believe in Him? Listen to this lesson to learn about the false Calvinistic belief that because of man's sin nature he is unable to make the decision to trust in Christ so must be chosen by God. Hear a number of principles that explain what faith means and that everyone has the option to believe that Christ died on the cross for them. See that after someone believes in Christ they are regenerated or born again. At the end of the lesson hear an engrossing missionary report from Tahiti on what is happening there by Mark Perkins. Evanelia.org

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Join Johnny and his guests, young podcasters and comedians Jonah Wells and Mark Perkins, as they share hilarious and insightful stories about their experiences with comedy & tragedy, and balancing it all on stage. In this episode of The Morning Woods Podcast, you'll get a glimpse into the world of podcasting and comedy and learn what it takes to make it in both. So tune in now for an unforgettable conversation! Watch The Pawn Patrol Podcast here https://youtu.be/n4knz5GRGE8 --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/themorningwoodspodcast/message

Imagine that you are hiring a new English teacher. None of the people who apply have any of the qualifications to teach English. No teaching degree. No English degree. No experience in the classroom. Would you hire any of them? Probably not. Now here is the irony. Many of the people making curricular and legislative decisions about education don't have the qualifications to be hired within education. This is a problem. In this episode, we hear how standardization, high-stakes testing, and policy decisions made by non-educators may be contributing to teachers' decisions to leave education. Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti  “So Stark (You're a Skyscraper” by Matt LeGroulx is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Cat and Mouse” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license. “Space (Outro)” by Andy Cohen is licensed under a CC  BY license.   “Home Fire” by Nul Tiel Records is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Press Conference” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Things Change” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain.  “Living Life” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Boulevard St Germain” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license.  “Hungaria” by Latche Swing is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Business Getaway ” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license. Transcript: I used to listen to the Dixie Chicks's song “Wide Open Spaces” before wrestling matches because I would get too wound up. It helped me slow down my breathing and relax.  In junior high and high school, I was fixated on winning and losing. I'd get a pit in my stomach, psyche myself up and out, all to my detriment. I was terrified of failing, of being a disappointment or an embarrassment.  Then I went to college. I walked-on to the University of Wyoming's wrestling team. During my meeting with Steve Suder, the head coach, he told me, “You know, you'll be walking into a room with a bunch of state champs. Are you worried about that?” I told him, “No, I'm not” because those were the guys  that I wanted to be wrestling against. I was a two-time state placer and I had nothing to lose. Suder said, “Good,” and then told me that he never won state either, but he ended up being an All-American for the University of Wyoming, so there was hope for me.  During our conversation, in between adjusting this chewed up yellow cushion he used as a back support, he told me that I was like the pretty girl's funny friend at a party. I'm not someone he noticed right off the bat, but once he got to know me, he was happy to have me around. He meant this in the best way possible, and I didn't mind.  I made the team, worked my butt off, won some matches, and lost more than I won. And I hate losing, but it felt different. I was excited to be wrestling, not nervous. Suder made it clear that his expectations were low, but he was happy to have me. I focused on gaining experience and the process and growing as a wrestler and a person. And I got to wrestle a guy named Brent Metcalf, who is the only person I wrestled that had a documentary made about him. When someone asked Metcalf why he didn't celebrate wins, he said, “I don't want to give my opponent the satisfaction of watching me celebrate, which would make it look like a big deal that I beat him.” This dude is a monster.  It was an extraordinarily humbling match. I had no control of my own body - his fingers were in my mouth at one point, but I learned what it was like to wrestle the best. It was eye-opening.  My tenure as a collegiate wrestler only lasted that year,but I remained in contact with Coach Suder off and on until his passing in 2019. And I had changed. My priorities shifted from valuing product to process.    When I became an assistant high school wrestling coach, the head coach had also wrestled for Coach Suder, and so we continued his tradition of emphasizing process. And what I noticed is that the wrestlers felt less pressure. They only tried being better today than they were yesterday. And when they have that mindset, success, though not guaranteed, is more likely. They are wrestling to compete and to score points. And even if they don't have success, they do the best they can do at that moment, and that's always worth being proud of.  In education, we focus on the product, on assessment. There is an obsession with passing or failing and we seem to have forgotten the value of process, which is where many teachers live. So today, we are going to look at how a structure of education that values standardized assessments could be contributing to teachers deciding to leave the profession, and because some of the frustrations with standardized assessment is a federal issue, which is too much to address here, we'll explore a possible solution to the high stakes assessment issue in Wyoming, which would hopefully keep teachers in education.  This is Those Who Can't Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I'm Charles Fournier. Here is part 5: “Education has a Tourist Problem” Mark Perkins: I do think that for a lot of teachers who are leaving, and this is speculative, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if you alleviated some of the assessment requirements within their schools, their satisfaction would increase. I don't think that that's a jump.  This is Mark Perkins, he is an Assistant Professor of Education Research Methods at the University of Wyoming and he is talking about the survey results he gathered about teacher attrition in Wyoming. So many teachers, both teachers leaving and teachers staying, reported that they were not happy with assessments. As we've heard from teachers that left teaching, there wasn't one thing that pushed them out of teaching. It was the layering of factors. And if we want to keep more teachers from leaving, it would be worth trying to address some of the most consistent factors. Aside from overall well-being and feeling supported, assessment is one the most consistent teacher frustrations. Now before we get into what specifically teachers don't like about assessment, I think it's important to think about why education currently has assessments, and this goes back to what we talked about last episode: the purpose of education and needing to be able to measure success for whatever that purpose is. Simply put, we need to reflect on what we want kids to know and how we can measure what they know. Mark explains. Mark Perkins: And so what does school success really look like? That sounds like an interesting, easy question. It's like, Well, kids know how to do math. Well, okay. What does that look like? Well, they can add, subtract, divide. All right. So what? When you start drilling into the actual requirements to exist and inhabit the world, the factors become much more latent than what we measure. But we fixated ourselves purely on content. During our conversation, Mark explained that there are a ton of other things that we want for students: self-awareness, identity development, civic consciousness, the ability to have some gumption and as Mark phrased it, drag a horse through the mud. But none of those qualities are easy to measure, which means it's more difficult to measure a teacher's overall effectiveness. This brings us back to the focus on content.  Mark Perkins: But all of the focus has been on reading math, science and somewhat government. How does a teacher who navigates let's call it the multivariate universe of being an educator. How do you evaluate teaching for the holistic aspects of the job? While we don't?  It would be difficult to assess students and teachers in the Multivariate Universe of education, as Mark puts it, so we assess a few content areas, and only a few things in those content areas. Many mission statements want to acknowledge the whole student, but we only assess a fraction of the student.  For example, I have a grant application unit for my sophomores. They do research and write a grant to receive hypothetical funding that they can use to address a real problem within our community. I don't limit students on what kinds of problems they want to address, so students have looked at drug use or homelessness or access to sports or social justice issues.  When students submit their grant applications, we go through a selection process. Students read each other's grants anonymously and identify ones that meet all of the grant requirements and would, in their minds, best serve our community. By the end of the process, all of my classes vote on the one grant that should receive the hypothetical funding. Every year I've done this, the grants that make the final vote, the ones that all of my students have pushed forward, are philanthropic and genuinely kind. And I tell my students this, usually as I tear up, that this project gives me hope for the future because through their research, writing, discussions, and voting, they prove that they are empathetic humans. I learn much more about what my students can do through this project than any standardized assessment that I've been required to administer. And this is a frustration echoed by teacher after teacher. If the thing that is used to reflect a district's success is a bubble-sheet test, that can feel pretty disheartening. Because from the teachers' perspective, the results of those tests, the results that are reported in the paper and raise community questions like, “What are they even teaching kids in school?” those tests lack validity. They're not the best way to measure whether the kids are alright, and Mark has questions about how well these tests show what kids know and how well they predict the future success of students, which is often how standardized tests are used. Several teachers pointed to the frustration that rather than getting students ready for life beyond high school or to be a life-long learner, they are forced to think that the be-all-end-all was the ACT or SAT.  So engaging and authentic instruction gets replaced with teaching to a test. From Mark's research and work in assessment, he sees that those assessments might not be worth the time we are putting towards them. Mark Perkins: And I have a suspicion that the predictive validity of these tests is not that good. And my suspicion comes from a very large body of literature that has looked at ACT/SAT versus high school grade point average and college level English math and general college grade point average. And yet, we invest an amount of time, pressure and money on these measures. What this means is that a grade point average, though imperfect in its own right, is a better predictor of future student success, whether they are college or career bound, than a standardized assessment. So what a teacher measures in their classroom is a better indicator of future success than what a standardized assessment shows.  And if this isn't enough, the amount students are tested is tremendous. This saps their energy and the energy of teachers who have to say, “I know this is the 573rd test, but you've got this.”  Mark Perkins: We need to simplify and make assessment parsimonious. We do need to assess, but we certainly only need to take our temperature one time and evening, maybe two, when we have a cold because we know that it's going to say the same number every time. Measuring is not teaching. I want to reiterate what Mark just said - measuring is not teaching. I also want to clarify something about assessment. Teachers use informal assessments all of the time. And these are different than the high-stakes standardized assessments.  Good teaching makes use of valid and authentic assessments often. When I was writing this episode, I got talking with my wife, Jennie,  about assessment, because this is what you do when you marry another teacher. When she taught Advanced Biology, she created these elaborate group tests that students would get excited about. She used assessment as a learning tool. Her thought is that you don't know what you know until you need to apply your knowledge.  This is why I like the writing process because it's an act of creating and synthesizing. It's a great form of learning.  So the right assessment can be an informative learning tool, but the high stakes, fill-in-the-bubble, standardized assessments that teachers are frustrated with are not that. Mark explains that in order for those standardized assessments to be more valid, there should be some adjustments.  Mark Perkins: I think that we could more wisely use measurement, and education. I think one of the first problems with high stakes testing, is the fact that the majority of these tests have no impact on students. Now. You don't have to be draconian about it .But we make intelligent decisions based off of test scores. And we provide students with logical and rational incentives.  From the teacher's perspective, it's hard to convince students that the tests matter because students don't see how they are relevant to their lives. I try to give students some perspective before tests, like “No it doesn't impact your grade, but  if you go through and randomly click answers to finish early, the people who care about these tests will think you're not learning anything, and then they will change curriculum and make you guys only learn from a textbook. Do you want that?” They usually shake their heads no, but that doesn't mean they care any more about the test. Many teachers struggle to care about the tests as well. They don't like the kind of standardization the tests force that does not allow for freedom in the classroom. Shane Atkinson, who we heard from in the first episode, left teaching after 13 years, and part of his decision to leave had to do with a lack of autonomy, some of which is tied to standardization. He pointed out that there are some districts that are so standardized, their days are mapped out in a binder. Shane Atkinson: This is what you do, then you do this, here's the question you should ask, have them fill out this worksheet. Day two… I think that's been done under the guise of equity. You don't want a kid in this classroom at this school to get a much different or better education than a teacher in the classroom next door. And I get that. So the idea is, well, to keep it equitable, they should be doing the same thing in both of those classrooms during that period of their US History class. Again, you're making decisions based on a minority and applying them to everybody, even if you're doing good work. That does everybody a disservice.  The hope is that every kid will receive the same quality of education, so teachers are expected to stick to a curriculum, and in some instances, stick to a script. Much of the push towards national standardization came from the George W Bush Administration's, 2001, No Child Left Behind Act. Jaye Wacker, whose voice we heard in the first episode and who quit teaching after 31 years, felt like the No Child Left Behind Act did a lot to undermine public trust in education. And it did it through standards.  Jaye Wacker: No Child Left Behind set impossible targets. And basically year after year after year, it undermined public confidence in education. So then we needed the standards we needed to prove that we're doing something and yeah, I get it and I agree with it. You know, let's prove what we're doing. But this homogenization that we've talked about _____ High School in their curriculum, the most diverse curriculum in the state, and their kids are outperforming all these homogenized curriculums.  Part of the impossible targets from the No Child Left Behind Act included a 100% proficiency rate for all students by 2014 - this meant that all students would be able to perform at grade level by 2014. This sounds nice, it is great rhetoric because of course no one wants to leave any kids behind, but this goal disregards so many variables. Many students are below grade level because of severe physical and or learning disabilities, and some will never make it to grade level. This doesn't mean an effort to get all students to proficient is a bad goal, it's a great goal, but not reaching this goal made it look like schools were failing. But the Act made it so schools were destined to fail. Though this Act has since been replaced, along with the unrealistic proficiency rates, its negative impact on the view of education is still present. Wacker also pointed to the reality that homogenized education doesn't necessarily produce the best results. This is a pretty common view of standards. A teacher who wanted to remain anonymous said. "On a societal level, I think standards are the worst thing about education, and that's a wide-open race... In my opinion, standards have lead to a homogenization that is stunting our growth, and solve problems that don't exist. I don't want education to be the same everywhere; I want to be a local restaurant, not a McDonald's." For a more scientific point of view, my wife, Jennie, who left teaching after 7 years compares standardization to evolution. Jennica Fournier: So I think that standards homogenize things. So I don't know if your high school teacher was too afraid to teach you about evolution. But in general, we evolve best as a species if we have a really diverse gene pool. Basically if our education system was a gene pool, we'd be fucked.   So from an evolutionary perspective, species that are standardized or homogenous, don't survive adversity very well. Diversity is necessary for survival, and this includes diversity of curriculum. Jennie explained that we might struggle as a country to solve problems when everyone has been exposed to the same standardized curriculums. Jennie points out that there would be benefits to having students prioritize local issues. Jennica Fournier: So essentially we need kids to have a set of skills that match their environment at a local level in order to solve problems at their local level versus everyone in the US only knowing how to solve a generic set of problems. So many teachers see standards as an impossible bar to be reached that stifles their ability to be creative in their classrooms. Another part to the frustration with standardization and standardized assessments comes from the preparation required to take them and the pressure associated with the results. This is preparation and pressure that Mark, who discussed assessment earlier in this episode, says might be unnecessary. Molly Waterworth, who we heard from in a previous episode and who left teaching after 8 years, explains how frustrating that process of preparation was.  Molly Waterworth: ACT/SAT prep, hated that. Totally hated it. And I never really figured out a way to do it super meaningfully. It just felt really meaningless because I just couldn't connect it to anything relevant. I just have to say to the kids, “I'm doing this so that you know the format of the test, and that's why we're doing this.” It's not fun. There's no way to have a discussion about whether or not somebody answered the correct question on ACT/SAT practice. My biggest motivator and the thing that brought me the most joy in teaching English was discussion and parsing through complexity and finding our collective way through something big and doing ACT/SAT prep just didn't ring that bell. Having to teach towards a test that doesn't seem valuable, or to work towards standards for the sake of standards can leave teachers feeling powerless. I don't know that anyone likes to feel powerless, to feel like their hands are tied behind their backs. Several teachers decided to leave education for jobs that gave them more autonomy, where they didn't feel like they were jumping through hoops.   I personally have never been a fan of doing things just because. If I am required to give a test, I want to know that it matters. I do the same for my students, I want all of their work to feel relevant beyond the classroom. Most teachers are the same. They want to know that what they are doing is relevant, and many don't feel like the layers of standardized tests are relevant.Students, like most other humans, want to feel like what they do matters.  At least that's what Anjel Garcia wanted from her education.  Anjel Garcia: Kids just don't have any respect or like reason to care about school, and I think that connects back to they don't know what they are doing there.  Anjel took my college-level English class and graduated last year. She is a phenomenal artist - I have one of her paintings hanging in my classroom - and she is going to college for art. For Anjel, she thinks school should help students find a direction for their lives.  Anjel Garcia: I think it's to find a passion and to find something that you want to pursue in life. But we're at the point where you're only doing it so that you can cram and learn that information, and then forget it the day after the test. They're not actually doing it in a way that's teaching kids how to find interests. Which is something that many teachers enjoy. Engaging students in the joy of learning to find their interests is such a gratifying part of the job. And helping students identify interests means teachers would be able to individualize education for students. As we heard last episode, this is what many students want in their education - individualization. So a shift in the mission and a deprioritization of standardized assessment could create a structure that ends up valuing individualization. If we don't make this shift, we will continue with a structure that devalues individualization and does not promote the joy of learning. This is what that feels like to Anjel. Anjel Garcia: It's kind of extreme…with the prison system, they treat everyone the same way. They treat them like animals. They aren't treated in a way that rehabilitates them to be better people or to be prepared in the world, and I think that sort of connects to school.  Students shouldn't feel like this, and teachers often feel powerless when it comes to assessment. To ease student pushback they rely on the district, state, or national mandate. The “Sorry guys, we have to do this.” So a shift to prioritizing the joy of learning will be a positive shift not only for keeping teachers but for making education something that students find joy and value in.  Still, despite teacher frustrations and the possible lack of validity of standardization and standardized tests, they are present because there has been a historic problem with equity in education in the United States. This is why Marguerite Herman sees value in standardization. Marguerite has a master's degree in education, has some experience teaching, and served two terms as a School Board Trustee. And she agrees that there are some downsides to the standards, but she was pretty adamant that they are necessary.  Marguerite Herman: To standardize things, you lose a lot, but you also have these assurances that again… I use the term bean counter. I don't want to be dismissive of that responsibility - bean counters have to answer themselves to others. I've known Marguerite since I was in Kindergarden - she used to help with religious ed when I was little, and I went to high school with her kids. When she was on the school board, I could always count on her to attend events I put on for my students - author visits or student projects. Marguerite is involved and someone I knew would be well-informed and honest with me about her role on the School Board and about education policy.  When I told her that teachers are frustrated with standardization and assessments, she acknowledged teacher frustration but defended assessments because they offer quality assurance and a way to make educational funding decisions, even if the standardized assessments are imperfect.   Marguerite Herman: You know, with funding comes accountability. And to some extent, people want a number, especially legislators who are not educators. They want to know, what's your competence here, what's whatever you're proficient in. Anytime you index a number, there's just a lot of data that's lost because you're reducing, you're obscuring, a lot of nuance. You don't get any nuance, frankly. It's imperfect, but you need something, and I'm not challenging that.  Marguerite explains that something is needed to ensure that all students are benefiting from their public education. And her job as a Trustee on the School Board was to ensure that.  Marguerite Herman: Well, once again, the statute kind of lays it out. At the school board, we are elected as trustees, and let me just dwell a moment on the word trustee, which is that you have undivided loyalty to a beneficiary. That word was picked. It's not like a delegate and something like a representative. You don't represent a sub constituency. You represent every child in this district - they are the beneficiaries. So everything you do, you should have in your mind, “I am using all the possessions, the assets of our district, to provide for the educational benefit of every child.”  I want to pause on this definition for a moment because there has been some divisiveness on school boards across the country. Marguerite's definition is succinct -  Trustees serve their beneficiaries, so Board Members serve kids. This means the tribalism that has moved into school boards across the country should get left at the door. School boards serve students and no one else. And when I say students, I mean all students across the religious, racial, sexual, gendered, intellectual, and political spectrums. This is no small feat to serve such a diverse spectrum of students, but that should be the goal despite what interest groups think or who is in the capital. And this is why Marguerite is adamant that even if our current system is imperfect, we need something. I agree, we need something, but I don't think what we have currently is that something. And Marguerite explains that the data  that the legislators  want don't come from what a teacher sees.  Marguerite Herman: The feds want their numbers, and the legislature wants its numbers. “This is the teacher's honest opinion of the learning that went on” and said, “Yeah, that's fine. But you know, show me the test score, show me the performance I want to see”. And so, you know, we dance to a lot of different bean counters.  So the people that want to track progress, as Mark pointed out earlier in this episode and Marguerite reiterates here, don't necessarily want to hear what a teacher has to say about a student's success - even though a teacher is an expert and is highly aware of their students' capabilities. And even though, as we heard Mark explain earlier, a student's gpa, made up of teacher grades, is often a better indicator of a student's future success than the results of a standardized assessment. But teachers aren't trusted. The feds, the legislature, whoever it is that is running quality assurance wants an easily read progress report that covers a few content areas.  Remember the idealism about the purpose of education from last episode - it often fizzles at the feet of a standardized structure that takes the word of a test over that of a teacher, the human who actually knows the kid. Idealism and authentic learning and genuine human growth are harder to measure than the few content areas that can be measured on a bubble sheet. Still,  I know Marguerite is right - the assessments and the standards are a way to document, in an easily measurable way, that an effort is being made to assure an equitable education for all. That does not mean the way we assess nor the assessments themselves are valid, good for kids, or good for teachers. So let's change them! Let's make our purpose of education, our assessments, our measurements good for kids and good for teachers! Right? It should be easy! We know that kids want to feel like what they do matters, that they want curriculums that are more individualized. Right? So we need to talk with someone who understands how these things work, and how changes could be made to the current system. Here's Chris Rothfuss. Chris has been a college professor, he has run a college summer program for high school students, and he is the father of kids in the public school system. He is also the Senate Minority Floor Leader in the Wyoming State Senate and a member of the Joint Education Committee. Chris was one of two Wyoming legislators to get back to me, and the only one who agreed to meet with me.  Chris Rothfuss: The intent of that Accountability Act, as it ended up looking, was to figure out which districts and specifically which schools were struggling, and then provide them with the resources, a system of supports, to build them up and make them better.  The Wyoming Accountability in Education Act was adopted in 2013. It took over federal accountability requirements established by the No Child Left Behind Act and preceded by the Every Student Succeeds Act or ESSA. ESSA requires states to give annual statewide tests in reading/language arts and math to every student in third through eighth grade and once when they are in high school, and in science at least once in each of grades 3-5, 6-9, and 10-12. So the Wyoming Accountability Act, through the Legislature and Wyoming Department of Education, interprets federal requirements and sets goals for student and school achievement. So what assessments are used, how students are assessed, and how many assessments are given beyond the federal requirement is dictated by the state. And Chris acknowledges that there might be an issue with assessments.  Chris Rothfuss: We may be overtesting. If there were a way that we could do sampled testing if we could be a little more thoughtful about how we're doing it, if we're not using it as a direct educational instrument, then we don't need every student tested, we really just need a statistical representative sample.  But at this point, testing for a statistical representative sample is not how assessments are being used. Federally we have to test every student in most grades at least once a year, but many students are tested much more than this. Even so, I like the idea of shifting to a statistical representation especially if it means less tests. Statistical representative sample testing is already used at the federal level by the National Center for Educational Statistics - an entity of the US Department of Education. The National Assessment of Educational Progress or NAEP tests, also known as the Nation's Report Card, are given every two years to randomly selected fourth and eighth graders to test English and Math. So we already have a model for using these statistical representative sample tests, and it might be worth seriously considering how to do this - to quit overtesting. Chris calls the amount of tests part of the unintended consequences of standardization.  Chris Rothfuss: So we in Wyoming adopted some world class standards. The unintended consequence, though, as you set that as your mission, teach all of these students all of these standards, is that you've only got so much time in a day. And you've got more standards than you're capable of teaching in a school year. So when that becomes your priority, and you know, you're going to be tested on your knowledge of those standards, and you know, you're expected to improve your knowledge of those standards. As you're thinking through our well, what are we going to do with each of our days, you don't think head to the mountains? I think about heading to the mountains on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean we get to go to them. These unintended consequences of standards and assessments are a reality. The individualization of instruction and the exploration that teachers talked about last episode are often a casualty of an overwhelming amount of standards that must be covered. But a move towards individualization, and less emphasis on standardized assessments is possible. But it will require a legislature that is informed and understands what adjustments should be made in education. Chris Rothfuss: I don't think there's necessarily a misconception that the folks that are making decisions about education, don't understand education. That's regrettably probably accurate. Chris points out that many of the people with the power to make policy decisions about education think they are qualified to make decisions about education because they once went through the education system. Many of these people want to run education like a business, like a factory. They use words like stakeholders and incentivize, and they want annual progress reports. These are people that don't necessarily acknowledge or make decisions about education based on best practices. Chris Rothfuss: I spent the first I don't know how many years of my time in the legislature trying to ensure that our Wyoming education model did not utilize that pay for teacher performance. Because the literature makes it very clear that that is the wrong approach. Best Practices make it very clear that that's the wrong approach. But policymakers so often choose that approach because they don't take the time to really understand why it's an awful approach.  Folks like legislators disregarding best practice or research-based practice is a foundational aspect of why teachers are leaving education. Teachers are experts in their field, but education has a tourist problem. You know, those people who are close enough to education to feel like they are a part of the system, but the actual educators, the educational locals if you will, don't see it the same way.  And  teachers are tired of being dismissed or treated like they aren't experts. The educational tourists assume that their time as students makes them an expert in education - policy is put into motion by folks who aren't informed enough about education to be making decisions.  This is so frustrating as an educator. Nothing irritates me more than a non-educator, upon finding out I'm a teacher, starts telling me how I should do things. It's almost as bad as sitting next to an arm-chair quarterback trying to explain how Josh Allen should be throwing the ball differently.  Chris is aware of this frustration of having unqualified people making decisions about education, and he is at a loss as well. Chris Rothfuss: Education is certainly not a business. But at the same time, imagine you were a business and you were hiring for the job. Instead of electing for the job, you would immediately eliminate the entire slate. And this would be true of so many of the things so many of the positions, so many elected officials. If it were a list of applicants and you were the hiring officer, you'd just be like not qualified, not qualified, not qualified. How did we get to the point where our elected officials And the folks that we put in charge could never even get a job at the institution they're being put in charge of. Think about that. Many of the people in positions to make policy decisions about education do not have the qualifications to be hired within the education system. Why do we accept this?  When the people in charge of the institution aren't involved in the institution, they aren't informed enough to be making decisions that are in the best interest of those people, the students and teachers and administrators, that are in that institution daily. This results in bad policy or policy fueled by animosity towards education or animosity towards any federal institution.  Chris Rothfuss: We've moved away from having a supportive team of pro-education legislators on the education committee that was struggling and working to do what was best for K-12 public education and really working hard to now over the last few years, embracing this mentality that our public schools are failing, and that somehow, for profit, religious charter schools from out of state will solve our problems, or decreasing funding will solve our problems, or belittling teachers and calling them out. Maybe holding them responsible for tiny actions or making them post everything that they're doing every single day online for parents to nitpick is somehow going to help. We haven't really in the legislature seen anything that I would call a strong positive pro education proposal in probably the last four years, But what we have seen are policies that attack educators or education as a whole, and this is exhausting as a teacher. For many this adds to the feeling of being disrespected. If our elected officials, people who are seen as community leaders, are attacking education from an uninformed platform, it perpetuates a devaluing of education, thus a devaluing of teachers. And teachers are tired of it, and it's contributing to why they are quitting.   Chris Rothfuss: We have some of the least informed policy makers shouting the loudest about their beliefs in education, that they're entirely unqualified to bring forward and promote. And yet, by being the loudest voice in the room and an angry voice, it's just easy to generate a mob mentality of support behind you, and to advance what is effectively bad policy and bad legislation, so we're seeing that.  And what's scary is that these poorly informed policymakers are in positions to make policy change, to make lasting impacts on education that will further ostracize teachers, hurt students, and likely make more teachers leave the profession.  Marguerite gave an example of a policymaker putting a footnote in a budget bill that tried to reject teaching Next Generation Science standards, which, as Marguerite put it Marguerite Herman: Which is like modern science. We hear about evolution, you know? I think we kind of got that one settled. Let's question gravity, shall we? Okay. I'm making fun of it, but it was, teachers had no idea it was awful. That's what happens when the legislature, which is politics, let's face it, folks, gets into the curriculum, they do not have the expertise. And then Pollock's politics doesn't always produce the greatest results, let's just say. Chris had examples of bad bills too. Chris Rothfuss: Teachers Not in Legislature In fact, when we hear when we when we bring legislation when we got some horrible bill that's coming before us in the legislature, like the horrible bill we had last year that would have required everything that teachers were doing, be posted on the web. Awful bill, bad premise, and certainly awful motivation. As far as I can tell, the only motivation is, you know, we don't know which books to burn if we don't have a full list.  So that awful bill, we didn't have a lot of teachers come up and provide public testimony against that bill, you think the whole classroom would be full, right up until you realize that no, all of those teachers were teaching at that moment in time, and would have had to take time off from teaching to come provide testimony against that lousy bill. So we don't hear the chorus of voices from the expert educators, we hear the chorus of voices from the folks that have the free time to come and yell at us. This is a great irony. Teachers who would have strong opinions about such a bill and who would be impacted by the bill, are not able to advocate in person because they are doing their jobs. And at a moment when substitutes are in short supply, leaving school to attend the legislative session is even more difficult.   Still, teacher advocacy was something that both Chris and Marguerite pointed to in terms of making a difference in policy. Policy includes curriculum choices and assessment choices. But for a teacher to speak up about assessment or curriculum requires a level of vulnerability that many teachers don't feel comfortable with.  Chris Rothfuss: Well, it's certainly understandable that when the teaching community has its strong supportive views for diversity of educational materials that are and that view is effectively contrary to a school board that again, is usually not expert, or particularly proficient in pedagogy or or education. It's going to be disconcerting for the teachers to step up and advocate because again, they're in fear for the protection and preservation of their job, and it's a flaw with our system.  I have felt this constantly over the last eight months as I've interviewed folks, researched, written, and produced this podcast. I don't know who I might offend or upset - Wyoming has a mighty small population And I don't know what impact this series could have on my job. It's a risk, but dammit, I'm tired of seeing teachers at the end of their tethers. I'm tired of being a teacher at the end of my tether. Something has to change. We need to fix this.  We need to listen to the experts, to teachers who know what they're doing, who know what good assessment looks like, who know what engagement looks like, who know the power of relationships, and who know that teachers are stretched thin. And Chris says, teacher voices could make an impact.  Chris Rothfuss: And public testimony does make a difference. And believe me if those 250 educators were able to show up and weren't obligated to be teaching at that point in time. That'd be very compelling. Beyond speaking up in legislative sessions, part of the solution to retaining teachers, might require some reflection on the roles of everyone in the multivariate universe of education. So my question to both Chris and Marguerite was if teachers should have more of a role on school boards. I asked this because many teachers point to the reality that school boards are made up of non-teachers. Not many other professional boards are run by people outside of the particular field. Marguerite was adamant that teachers should not be on school boards - she explained that's not how the statute is written. And Chris worked through the question in a very diplomatic manner, but he acknowledges a problem with people getting on school boards who are there for the wrong reasons.  Chris Rothfuss: This gets back to the question of who should govern whom and how. You'll have some people on an average school board, typical school board, that know something about education, hopefully. And then you've got people that are just mad about education. And then you've got people that are pointedly trying to slant education towards specific interest groups interests, that might be fully counter to K-12. Chris sees value in teacher expertise, but like Marguerite, he points to the possible conflict of interest with having teachers on the board.   Chris Rothfuss: It is hard to have someone on a governing body that is in the role that the body is governing as a voting member, although that can be dealt with, you can have some votes that they're there for, like the policy decisions they are included in, but maybe not the personnel decisions, there's a lot of possibilities there. So I'm one that certainly is concerned that we do not have anywhere near enough expertise on our school boards. There's no obligations for qualifications. So a lot of the problems we have stem from that lack of expertise. And ideally you want to balance.  Having some balance is a step towards a system that will retain teachers. In order to keep teachers in education, it will be important that teachers have a voice in education policy and decision making. Teachers shouldn't be a scapegoat when things go wrong, nor should they be excluded or put in positions where they exclude themselves from decision making positions because they fear retaliation or because they are so busy that they can't make room for something else.  We need to reimagine and consider the roles of everyone tied to the education process because right now, the teachers working with kids and engaging in the education process are often left out of the conversation. Dylan Bear, a teacher we heard from a few episodes ago, had the best analogy for how we should think about everyone's role in education.  Dylan Bear: Imagine, a fence, you know, like a round pen for a horse. The respect has to come from all angles for someone to learn. And you have to have the community showing respect of the education system, you have to have parents showing respect, you have to have the students show respect to the teacher showing respect for that. And so this ring of respect has to be there, of the education system. Or else if one of those falls out, like have a parent, dad or mom say, I'm not dealing with my kid at school, I call the principals and then once that happened, that kid got out of the pen because now he goes the path of least resistance to leave the education system.  The key image that Dylan is presenting here is the ring of respect that requires everyone associated with education to have a role, and trusting each other to cover their role. And for Dylan, even though he points to an analogy of a horse pen, he says this could take place anywhere.   Dylan Bear: And it doesn't have to be four walls and bricks and the fence at the school. I think that's such a weird way to learn. I love going to the mountains and going on trails where now you're vulnerable, and you want people to respect you and trust you. You look at the different environments for education, so different. But yeah, trying to get what needs to change to me is you have to have communities that value teachers that don't want to use that negative language. You have to have kids who value it. So education has to be a collective of support with and around kids. To gain that support and trust and collectivity we need to have a clear purpose of education - this echoes last episode. Right now, we base the purpose of education on how we evaluate students or how we can cover a tremendous amount of material. An unintended consequence of having so much material to cover is that education might feel like a grind to students. A grind without a sense of purpose makes it difficult for students to care. So to shift what is happening in the classroom and to create a structure in which roles are clear and supportive of one another in education, Chris thinks legislators should start by listening to teacher concerns. Chris Rothfuss: So when we hear from our teachers, what their real concerns are right now, and when they come back to me as a legislator and say, mental health is the problem for both students and teachers. We should listen. And we should adjust because at the end of the day we're not these rulers that are supposed to be at a distance and making proclamations. Our job is to listen and to learn from folks that know what they're talking about. And then try to put in place policies that affect change that enable everyone to do what they want to do and are trying to accomplish. And particularly in the public education system, we have that constitutional obligation to provide this high quality education for all.  For Chris, the role of legislators is to seek out experts to inform their decisions about policy that will impact those experts. So, for policy about education, legislators ought to speak to educators. And to do so in a way that is welcoming and doesn't just put more work on teacher plates. Chris also pointed out that to help mental health, which would contribute to keeping teachers, he thinks there should be a push to shift our priorities away from developing workers, which ideally means a shift away from high stakes assessment.   Chris Rothfuss: Honestly, if our first priority was joy in learning. As job number one, just imagine how much more we would learn. And that's the message that comes if we want to set it at the legislative level, we want to set it at the school district level. It does come from the policy leaders setting what is the mission? And right now our mission is develop workers. Chris explained that the role of legislators is to set the education mission, which could be seen as a purpose of education. And he thinks, especially at this present moment of teacher attrition and teachers and students both struggling with mental health, that the mission should prioritize the joy of learning. And if that mission is set, evaluative practices and accountability models can be adjusted. This will then dictate how school boards will work to achieve the new mission's objectives. It's a top-down shift, but if the top (legislators) consult the bottom (teachers and students) then it's more of a down-top-down shift? Whatever it is, it might help. Chris said that he would even be willing to take a drop in proficiency if we have happy kids and happy teachers.  Chris Rothfuss: My absolute ideal is to heavily prioritize joy in the classroom, and to focus our efforts, our resources, our activities, and our prioritization towards building joy in the classroom, with the expectation that with that joy, you would be addressing mental health issues, both for the teachers and for the students. And I'd love to see where that takes us. And what that means is ratcheting back this prioritization to build robots and the prioritization of score high on tests. And I'll take a 10% less proficient happy group. I will. At the end of the day, they can learn a little more math later. And if they're happy about education, then I think they'll have an opportunity to learn a little more about math later.  This mission would also shift the roles of us, the collective us, parents, teachers, administrators, legislators, community members, everyone, to not think of our K-12 experience as the only time we should be learning. If there was an assumption that learning was a lifelong process, Chris believes that we might have a cultural shift that results in valuing and enjoying learning, which would have a major impact on how teachers are viewed.  Chris Rothfuss: We think that you have an education phase in life. We've built a system around the idea that you have an education phase, phase one. Phase two and beyond never get any more education. Avoid, if possible. I would love a system where everyone just kind of keeps going back to school.  The move towards life-long learners that Chris is proposing would be a conceptual shift, but it could be supported concretely by a move away from overtesting or overemphasis on testing. Because our current system requires testing, this might mean we reimagine what testing looks like all together. Could it be a conversation? Something more authentic than a bubble sheet? Federal regulations have some flexibility there. Either way, the amount of attention given to Summative or End of Course testing is focusing on a product and not the process. Focusing only on the product is not creating a culture that loves learning - it's kind of the opposite. It's creating anxiety and pressure around learning. So if we can lessen the stress by drastically cutting back the amount and pressure of assessments, maybe we can focus on process and create a joy of learning.  So, by shifting priorities away from high stakes testing, we can stop structuring education in a way that prepares only for tests. This might mean loosening the grip on what curriculum can look like or what courses can be offered. For example, I once taught a course at the University of Wyoming called the history of Swing Dancing. We looked at the correlation of historic events and their impact on popular culture. When the class ended, a group of girls continued their final project and created a club on campus called Real Women Real Bodies. This class encouraged students to continue learning beyond the restrictions of the semester.  When I proposed to create this class for the high school setting in my district, it was declined because it didn't fit within the Guaranteed and Viable Curriculum. So a shift might allow us to create new, novel courses that might inspire students to continue learning and growing well beyond the course. Such a shift will likely reinvigorate teachers who almost all have unique expertise and would love to incorporate such things into a course.  So, as Chris pointed out, to adopt a new educational direction, it must start with a shift in mission at the legislative level - hopefully fueled by teacher input. And I think it can happen, especially in a state like Wyoming that wants to be a national leader in education - it even says so in the Wyoming Accountability Act.   So creating a mission that prioritizes the joy of learning by focusing on process over product could happen.  Then how the decision is implemented should trickle down. Hopefully, this would result in teachers wanting to stay in education. And if all of this happens, if we can make that allegorical ring of respect and support that Dylan mentioned,  just imagine how much better the education will be for our students. Students will ideally feel that joy of learning and feel like what they do in school has purpose because that's what many of them want from school.  This is idealistic. But when making changes, we need to strive for idealism and not be guided by fear. Because what we have now is not working. Many people are aware of this and are already taking steps to make changes that will hopefully make education better and help keep teachers in education. Next episode, we're going to take a look at what people are doing to help keep teachers in education. This includes Task Forces, Mentoring Programs, Fellowships, and more. That will be next time on Those Who Can't Teach Anymore. Thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share episodes with everyone you can think of. This episode was produced by me, Charles Fournier. It was edited by Melodie Edwards. Other editing help came from Noa Greenspan, Sarah-Ann Leverette, and Jennica Fournier. Our theme song is by Julian Saporiti. All other music can be found on our website. A special thanks to Anjel Garcia, Mark Perkins, Shane Atkinson, Jaye Wacker, Jennica Fournier, Marguerite Herman, Chris Rothfuss, and Dylan Bear for taking time to sit down and chat with me. If you are interested in seeing Mark Perkins' full report, “Teacher Attrition in Wyoming: Factors to Consider” you can find the link in the transcript for this episode and on our instagram page @thosewhocantteachanymore.  This podcast is funded in part by the Fund for Teachers Fellowship.

Mark Perkins brings over 25 years of industry experience working across some of the UK's leading PR agencies.In this episode, we cover the factors that play a part in winning new business -and spoiler alert, it's not just about having the best ideas. We also look at the process of business development, how to interpret a brief and when it goes right, and very wrong!It's a great episode that's sure to raise a giggle! Please note, this episode contains strong language.

Many of the problems modern teachers are facing aren't new, so we're going back in time to find out how our education system became a system that teachers are currently fleeing. Come to find out, modern teachers inherited low pay, limited respect, and a system that strips communities of their cultural traditions. In this episode, hear how Indian Boarding Schools and the American Industrial Revolution have left traces on modern education, and how these traces are contributing to teachers' decisions to leave education.   Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti “Sonata No.13 in E Flat Major, Op. 24 No. 1-II. Allegro, Molto, e Vivace” by Daniel Veesey is in the Public Domain. “Railroad's Whisky Co” by Jahzzar is Licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Ugly Truth” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain. “Upsurge” by Jonah Dempcy is  a  CC BY-NC license. “Green Lights”  by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Pizz” by Andrew Christopher Smith is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA Transcript: I had a band teacher once hold me after class and force me eat a beef and bean burrito. He sat in front of me on the piano bench to make sure that I ate it. I was a freshman, in the middle of the high school wrestling season, and I was cutting weight for my first varsity tournament – where I'd end up getting my lips knocked off. My teacher, Mr. Duran, was short, wiry, wore jeans with a braided leather belt and a button-down shirt. He had round-framed glasses, combed his hair to the side, and more than once told me to listen to the greats like Chick Webb and not just the white guys that made it on the radio.  He was in his 30th year of teaching, and he was not shy about giving advice. While I ate the burrito, Duran talked about playing baseball in college and how abruptly a life of sports could come to an end but how long a life of music could last. This was mature guidance, albeit, guidance that I see more value in now than I did then. Duran would garnish each class with stories that worked to guide us towards being kind human beings. There were days in Jazz band where he would sit in the center of the tiered room, legs crossed, saxophone neck strap still on, and tell us about his past. When Mr. Duran was in college at the University of Northern Colorado in the 1960s, the Count Basie Orchestra went through town and stopped at the university. UNC was known for its jazz programs and one of Basie's saxophone players dropped out and they needed a replacement. Count Basie was one of the most influential musicians from the Swing Era – he was like a swing minimalist. Duran jumped at the opportunity. He got to travel and play with the band and experience life as a musician – more specifically as a musician of color. One time he and a buddy from the orchestra went into a diner and were refused anything more than water. Duran was Mexican and his friend was Black, and it was the middle of the 1960s. In protest, they sat in the big window of the diner for 3 hours, sipping their water, putting themselves on display for anyone who walked by. I love that story – this man, my teacher, saw inequity and faced it with defiance. Duran's lessons were eye-opening. I didn't realize that those stories served as parables on ethics and kindness until I became a teacher and started telling stories of my own to serve the same ends. Duran used his history to help us become better humans. And isn't that why we turn to history? Well, today, we're going to take a lesson from Duran and examine the history of education in the U.S. And because the history of education is tremendous, we have to narrow it down. So we'll focus on two aspects of history that set precedents for modern education, for the current system from which modern teachers are exiting.. We are going to start with Indian Boarding Schools, and then we'll take a look at the American Industrial Revolution. This is Those Who Can't Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I'm Charles Fournier. Here is part 2: “Inheritance” Caskey Russell:  I'm going crabbing this weekend. I own a boat with my brothers. And yeah, we go out and catch crab. And there'll be salmon season soon. So I kind of got back into the ocean style lifestyle. This is Caskey Russel. I got to catch up with him over a zoom call this summer. He is the Dean of Fairhaven College at Western Washington University. He grew up in Washington and is from the Tlingit tribe. I know Caskey because he taught for 17 years at the University of Wyoming, he was a dean of American Indian Studies, and he was my thesis chair and educational guide when I was at the university. Some of Caskey's research for his PhD program dug into the history of Indian Education, specifically Indian boarding schools. Caskey Russell: My grandmother and her brothers, aunts and uncles, all went to Chemawa Indian School, in Salem. And it was a mixed bag. If you are asking yourself, wait, who's this Caskey guy and what do Indian Boarding Schools have to do with teachers quitting? Here's how. We know that historical atrocities leave a trace on modern institutions, so we need to recognize that Indian boarding schools have left their mark on modern education. They are a  part of the system of inequity modern teachers have inherited. Indian Boarding Schools are an example of the deculturalization that has occurred in education. One of many. Attempts to strip communities of their cultures happened with just about everyone in this country at some point that didn't fit into the male, able-bodied, straight, white, Anglo Saxon Protestant category. Traces of these inequities remain in education, deculturalization still happens, and teachers working towards inclusion in a system that was based on exclusion often run into roadblocks – think book bans or accusations that teachers are trying to indoctrinate kids - and these roadblocks are pushing teachers out of education. So to better understand the inequities in modern education, this thing that is frustrating teachers to the point of quitting, we need to look at where some of those attempts at deculturalization originated. We need to look at Indian Boarding Schools. And we need to listen to someone like Caskey.  Caskey Russell: They liked the sports. They like some of the music, but my uncle Stanley Pradovic, I remember he said, “I used to dream of feasts, seafood feasts that they had in Alaska.” And  my grandmother was able to keep the Tlingit  language because she didn't go to boarding school, but her brothers did not.  You step back and look at the whole system and how destructive and just kind of the cultural genocide aspect. My grandmother would say she didn't know her brothers because when she was born, her brothers were gone away from her earliest memories. And so she didn't get to know her brothers right away. It did break families up. And I was just chatting with my mom last night. My mom said the other family had no control over what it was determined for them. And again, not having control over that seems to be the key to it, nor having input in the education nor valuing…and then having a different model, different cultural notion of success. And then the military and the Christianization, all that together, just adds problem on top of problem, instead of being empowering and enlightening, that really becomes conforming, sort of thing. What happened to Caskey's family was a result of centuries of efforts to deculturalize tribes. Early European colonizers of the US  set a precedent of trying to assimilate tribes into a single monolithic culture. Colonizers disregarded tribal traditions and languages and failed to see that tribes already valued education for their youth. So the assumption that public education started with Horace Mann in 1837 is an assumption that values eurocentric education over the public education that was already in the Americas.  Part of this is because the purposes of education differed. Many Native communities saw educating children as a means to pass on generational knowledge and teach children how to be a successful part of the community. 17th-century Plymouth settlers specifically saw education and literacy as a method to keep Satan away. Children needed to be able to read so they could read the Bible. A pilgrim minister explained: “[There] is in all children, though no alike, a stubbornness, and stoutness of mind arising from natural pride, which must, in the first place, be broken and beaten down; that so the foundation of their education being laid in humility and tractableness, other virtues may, in their time, be built thereon” (42). But tribes did not beat down their children, did not read the Bible, and were able to survive and thrive in what Pilgrims saw as wilderness. So Pilgrims worked to impose their educational priorities onto tribes as a way to cast out Satan, and ultimately gain control of Indigenous people. This effort to assimilate and control only compounded over the next few centuries By the 19th century, congress was also making efforts to deculturalize and assimilate tribes. Thomas Jefferson who had a big role in the removal of Native Americans from their lands also had a One Nation idea when it came to Native Americans – an assumption that required assimilation through education. In 1816, Jefferson explained the value of education: “Enlighten the people generally and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. Although I do not, with some enthusiasts, believe that the human condition will ever advance to such a state of perfection as that there shall no longer be pain or vice in the world, yet I believe it susceptible of much improvement, and most of all in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion of knowledge among the people is to be the instrument by which it is to be effected” (101)). Jefferson believed a democratic, not a moral education which was what kids were getting at the time, was essential to democracy and he's right, but his One Nation idea required a monolithic ideal that did not value other cultures. He wanted tribes to conform to his image of being American. This focus on conformity was baked into the American educational philosophy. The Civilization Act of 1819 saw Thomas McKenney, the first head of the Office of Indian Affairs begin a process of Native American deculturization  – they created a tribal school system run by white missionary teachers hoping to gain control of tribes through the power of education and assimilation. When Andrew Jackson became president in 1829, he saw some of the educational progress made by tribes as dangerous to America's goals of gaining control of lands.   So, in 1830, America passed the Indian Removal Act, which brutally uprooted tribes and relocated them. Thirty years later, the Indian Peace Commission began reservation schools or day schools. But again, the cultural genocide that all of these acts and efforts had hoped for weren't as effective as the government Wanted. This is when the government stepped in again. Paired with the Dawes Act of 1877 that worked to split reservation lands into private property began the start of the boarding school movement in 1879. Each step was a process working towards killing cultures in an attempt to control land, people, and ideas – all largely through some form of education. The start of the boarding school experiment can  be attributed to Captain Richard Henry Pratt. Caskey Russell: Pratt actually had a number of prisoners of war under his charge at St. Augustine, Florida. Besides being given military uniforms, they would teach them. And so the way he sold the first  boarding schools was that instead of being at war with natives, you can educate them. The US could educate them, and kind of eradicate native culture through educating towards whiteness. Caskey explained that the thought was that education would help the government avoid the expenses of war. Caskey Russell: So there are a group of Plains Natives that were transported to St. Augustine, that was his kind of first experiment. And then he was able to go to Congress and get some money. And he took them to The Hampton Institute and eventually to the Carlisle Indian Industrial School So Pratt's experiment led to the establishment of the Carlisle Indian Industrial School in Pennsylvania in 1879. This was around the same time that Pratt made a famous statement to congress: Caskey Russell: He says to Congress, “You have heard Sherman say the only good Indian's a Dead Indian. I would agree with this one kind of difference that you can kill the Indian save the man.” That's what education can do. That's the motto. And so, there was based on military kind of military boarding school style, and they opened up across the country. And they were often religiously affiliated, and religious institutions given  them control of them. Which, you know, was another part of the boarding schools was the religious education, the eradication of tribal cultures, tribal religions, and the inculcation of Christianity, the various sects of Christianity across the country. Each step taken by congress, in the name of education, was an effort to prioritize one culture over others, one idea of success over others - often through religious means, because again, early education was morality based. And they did this through legislation and through educational policy. Even though many of these efforts are pretty old, we still feel the educational effects of prioritizing a single culture or single idea of success.. Elizabeth Smith, a veteran teacher of 20 years who teaches on a reservation still sees this today.  Elizabeth Smith: Even though I can count on my hand, the number of students that I've taught that have graduated and have a white culture, sort of experience with what would be known as success, quote, unquote   Caskey sees this idea in what is tested or valued as a bottom line in public education. These are things that dismiss differentiated cultural values. Caskey Russell: Did the schools reward students let's say for instance, this the schools Wind River  reward students for knowing the traditional clan system,  speaking Arapaho or Shoshone for knowing traditional ways, whether it's kind hunting, traditional use of land, traditional plants respond medicine, knowing being prepare, or being an apprentice for ceremony, none of that none of that culturally important stuff that was really important to Native people, especially young people they could dream of, you know, I'm going to fulfill these goals, these roles, these social roles one day, none of that's important, it seems like an American school system, right? When you're going to take the SAT or the ACT, are they going to value the hours you spent with your grandparents trying to learn the language or learning stories or learning traditional ways? Of course not. This is a part of the inheritance of modern education, something teachers have to grapple with consistently. How can we educate students to be a part of a community that through legislation or policy doesn't seem to value all traditions and cultures within that community? Or how to reach a measure of success that isn't culturally misaligned or based on morality? Caskey Russell:A handful of them might be successful in kind of the white American ideal. But that's not the only measure of success, nor is it maybe a healthy measure of success, right, for Native people. It would be wonderful to let other ideas of success, community success, success as a human being within a community flourish in the school setting. This question of how to honor a diverse spectrum of students lands on teachers in the classroom. Though legislators and school boards may make efforts to dictate what can and can't be taught in the classroom, the reality is it's teachers and administrators who are working with kids – and kids from a wide spectrum of communities who have often been forced into a specific, standardized idea of success, which might not be culturally conscious. This is exactly how Indian boarding schools started, they forced kids from diverse tribes into a standardized idea of success initially using arguments for morality to do so. We recognize this as bad now, so why are forms of it still happening?   A big concern of some of the teachers who have decided to leave teaching was the start of limits and  restrictions about what can and can't be taught in the classroom. Many of these limits originate from argument about morality that are backed by religious groups that want to dictate what is happening in the classroom. Think of Mr. Wacker from last episode who is still frustrated with the banning of Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye for moral arguments or Mr. Atkinson who felt his curriculum being squeezed by people who didn't appreciate class conversations about varying cultural perspectives on current events.  And, as we saw with the history of Native American education, this is not new – even though many founding fathers, who were deists themselves, advocated for the separation of church and state and were adamant that education focus on democratic values rather than religious values. John Adams wrote to his wife Abigail:  “I must study Politicks and War that my sons may have liberty to study Mathematicks and Philosophy. My sons ought to study Mathematicks and Philosophy, Geography, natural History, Naval Architecture, navigation, Commerce and Agriculture, in order to give their Children a right to study Painting, Poetry, Musick, Architecture, Statuary, Tapestry and Porcelaine.” John Adams does not reference education and say study the Bible. And fellow former president James Madison did not mince words in a letter that pushed against church use of government land, which would later include schools: “The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe with blood for centuries.” And these beliefs worked their way into legislation with the inclusion of the Establishment Clause in the First Amendment, which Thomas Jefferson said was “A wall of separation between the church and state.” And though we know Jefferson's view of education wasn't very inclusive, if we combine this idea of the separation of church and state with a modern inclusive reading of Jefferson's thoughts that education is to “Educate and inform the whole mass of the people. They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty,” We get a pretty good idea that education is a means to inform a free-thinking, diverse population that has different belief systems.  The founders knew the danger of letting religion seep its way into government - they just broke free of a country that allowed that to happen. So to have a system of education that would inform the whole mass of people without perpetuating the deculturalization we saw with the Indian Boarding schools, which have their origins in religious schooling, that system would need to accommodate the diversity of that mass of people.  This means that teachers would need the trust of the public and  freedom to use their expertise to do their jobs, which would likely include selecting a wide range of materials to accommodate a diverse student population. This freedom and trust is not something being granted to modern teachers. There is currently a trend of parents, legislators, and school board members criticizing teacher efforts to support diverse student needs, often through moral critiques. Which stems from a lack of trust and the same morality based fear that sparked early deculturalization efforts in the United States. So, this isn't new. This is another part of what teachers have inherited from previous generations of educators, a lack of professional respect that translates to a lack of autonomy in the classroom, low pay, and a smattering of other things that are driving teachers from their jobs. Here's Elizabeth again: Elizabeth Smith: And let me clarify, you know, when I say I love teaching, I do love teaching. To say that I love where I'm at right now, no, I do not. I am not satisfied with the way my job is going. I'm not satisfied with the way I feel inside every single day coming home from work. It's like a battlefield. It is intense. It is stressful. My family has noticed it and made comments on it, you know, and I don't have the patience to deal with my own children. And what am I going to do if I don't do this? I've got 20 years of expertise invested in this. And I've spent a lot of time learning how to do the things that I do and I enjoy improving it. As of now, she is planning on staying in education. And all of those 20 years have been spent teaching on reservations. She attributes this in part to why she loves her work so much, why she's planning on staying. There is a different level of respect that she sees in these schools and a higher level of appreciation, which goes a long way. But this doesn't mean that there still isn't a lack of professional trust or respect that she feels from being a teacher.  Elizabeth Smith: There's so much micromanaging and so many expectations that are put on us that are really insulting, actually, to our intelligence and to our professionalism. And I understand that there are teachers who are unaware of the ways that they're doing things are unprofessional and unintelligent. So I get the admin has to make some allowances and come up with some plans for how to deal with teachers that are not as aware of themselves and their skills as they should be, you know, so I understand that but the blanket statements.. To address where these blanket solutions may originate from, we are going to take another look at history through a little different lens than what we've been using so far.  When I asked teachers about what pushed them out of education, they echoed Elizabeth's frustrations. Lack of respect was a major reason people left. But this is not new, like the history of inequity in education, the lack of professional respect has been a thread through public education's history. So we are going to pull on that thread and look at the tradition of not valuing or respecting teachers.   Stephanie Reese: As a teacher, you're going to be marginalized, and you're not going to be taken seriously. Ron Ruckman: I think a lot of administrators, They just don't have any idea there, and they don't really think of us as professionals, you know, they don't really think of us as being able to do our job. Christie Chadwick: As a teacher, we're managing all these expectations. And I think that that's not acknowledged by the general population. Teachers want to be seen as professionals. This came up in interviews in reference to being trusted to make decisions about curriculum, in being more autonomous, and in getting paid better. When thinking about why teachers have inherited a lack of professional respect in the present, it might have to do with the American Industrial Revolution: Colby Gull: We were built on an industrial model. Get them in, stick the widget on him and get him out the other side of the door. Right. And that's just not how humans work. This is Colby Gull, he is the managing director for the Trustees education Initiative in the College of Education at the University of Wyoming. Colby has been a teacher, a coach, a principal, and a superintendent. He's run the educational gamut. And he points out that the structure of education does not necessarily promote the growing and sharing of ideas. Colby Gull: And we live in now the idea economy. And we're still not teaching in the idea economy. We're teaching in the industrial economy where you buying and selling goods. But our economy now is based on ideas and sharing of ideas and debating and discussing, and I don't know, people make a lot of money with their ideas.  And this structure of education, this factory style model, which looks similar to the military approach seen with Indian Boarding Schools, started and gained popularity during the American Industrial Revolution at the end of the 19th century. Along with this more industrial model the precedent for the amount of respect teachers received was set. I see several ways in which history has handed down a dismissive attitude toward teachers.  As Common Schools gained popularity in the mid-19th century, young women were also moving to cities for better economic opportunities. And these women were hired as teachers in droves because they could be paid substantially less than men. This compounded since teaching was seen as respectable employment for women - it matched the stereotype that women were naturally nurturing. Both the image of teachers as nurturers and the trouble with pay is consistent with what we see today.  Here's Stephanie Reese, a former PE teacher who left education and became the general manager of Blacktooth Brewing Company. Stephanie Reese: Absolutely money matters. I was in so much debt. You know, with loans, whether they're student loans, or just credit card, or whatever it is, I had a lot in college, had a lot while I was teaching. and teaching just doesn't give you that opportunity.. And  level increases are a fucking joke. Unless you've been in, you've been in I call it like, like you've been in the pen. You've been in for 34 years, you've given one kidney, you have four degrees, master's degrees, preferably doctorate even better, and you've given up your will to live, and those those things will give you more money. Part of the consistently poor pay has to do with the hierarchical structure in education. After the Civil War, the first iteration of the department of education was created, in order to track what the nation's schools were doing. So there was an expectation for the availability of public schooling. Once the American Industrial Revolution hit towards the end of the 19th century, factory jobs boomed. More people flocked to cities meaning there were more kids and more of a need for teachers. With more men transitioning to better paying factory jobs, even more women were moving to the classroom. The large number of women serving as teachers was accepted at a time when women weren't given many professional opportunities. Administrative roles – principals, superintendents, and the like – were held by men. And many high school positions were still held by men. So a hierarchy that prioritized male control and male decision making was very clearly in place. Mark Perkins, a former teacher and administrator and current parent and professor of Educational Research methods at the University of Wyoming, points out that this hierarchy has remained even if the original gendered reasons for its creation haven't. Mark Perkins:  I think there's a power hierarchy. And I don't think that teachers have been empowered enough to express their professional expertise. I think that teachers are approached as a service industry. And so, we want teachers to parrot curriculums. We want them to be experts in their content, as long as their expertise doesn't contradict with our preconceived notions of reality. So I think there's a sociological phenomenon that goes on in schools.  I think it's a common phenomenon. The system of becoming an administrator in some cases  was once based on seniority. So the most senior teacher would inherit the role of principal. This changed when a degree was required to become a principal or superintendent, which also prevented women from gaining access to these administrative positions by making them require a degree because women weren't often able to access such an education. So these days, some administrators are in the position without having had a tremendous amount of time in education, which can make administrator impact or insight into the classroom difficult. Ron Ruckman, who just left teaching after 23 years, explains that the lack of experience can be glaringly obvious for some administrators who are disconnected from the teachers. Ron Ruckman:  You know, and then there's other administrators that just don't want to have anything to do with your classroom, you know, and they want to make decisions, but they don't want to, they don't communicate with you or ask you things. There's a lot of that especially in rural districts. We've spent so much time and money in this district doing initiatives and buying products. And, you know, I can't imagine how much money we've just wasted, you know, buying stuff that, you know, on, based on a good salesman that convinced somebody that they needed it. Whereas had they come and asked us would have been like, no, no, that that would be a really dumb thing to do. That's not going to work. You know, but there's just that kind of an apt idea that teachers really are, you know, don't really know what they're what, you know, they don't really know anything other than their subject. And we're, we're pretty smart. Most of us, you know. (Beeping) This was perfect timing. That beeping was for a fire. Ron is the Battalion Chief for the Pinedale fire department - he has a lot of roles in his community because he is intelligent and capable and because of not being respected for being intelligent and capable, he quit teaching to pursue the other things he's good at.  Some of the ways teachers are not seen as capable has to do with how education is standardized. In the late 19th century, as cities got larger and more and more kids were put into schools, urban schools started to split students into grade levels. Around this time and into the early 20th century, there was a development of what historian David Tyack (Tie-yak) described as the One Best System of education – this saw a focus on specific, easily assessed, and easily sequenced subjects of study. This also did more to highlight non-academic items like good attendance, behavior, and willingness to follow directions, which all aid in creating people who would fit into an industrial economy. This structure was useful when more and more students were placed into a class. And by the early 20th century, politicians and administrators were seeing schools as being a solution to the nation's woes. Traces of these industrialized values are very present in modern classrooms, and it makes Allison Lash, who taught art in New York City and Austin, Texas, sad at what she sees. Allison Lash: A friend of mine had said one thing about why he's doesn't like education is just that you go to school to learn how to work, basically, to get you ready to go out in the world and work. And that's sad. Like, I just want to live. I don't want to worry about working and how to make money and pay your school loans and your bills. It used to bother me that kids would get rewarded for being in school every day. And it's all about money. It's all about how many kids are in their seats every day for the school district to make money. And it was sad, it was sad that kids would win awards for like, being their everyday awards. Like who really cares? They're totally ignoring mental health and even if the kid is sick, you stay home. It's really sad when you go into elementary school and you see the kids quiet and lined up in a line and like “shhhhh,” and I remember teaching that and  I know that I guess order is not wanted, and I don't know if needed is even the right answer. Teach kids to be a good person. The rise of industry during the American industrial revolution also saw a rise in unions and strikes. Because teachers were mostly women, and many of the strikes of the time were more militant and potentially violent, women were less likely to take part in strikes and efforts to gain better pay. This was not helped by the fact that men held leadership positions in education, so they did not make efforts to better the work environments of teachers because these men just weren't affected. The  National Education Association, which was founded in 1857, wasn't just for teachers, so administrators, men, were also in charge of Union happenings. It wasn't until 1910 when Ella Flagg Young was elected as the NEA president that the union started taking more steps to help teachers. But the difficulty in changing and revising educational structures is still present. Chris Rothfuss, a parent and Wyoming State Senator and member of the Senate Education committee, knows this all too well. While we have a coffee in Laramie, Wyoming, Chris explains that change may require a cultural shift inspired by younger generations .  Chris Rothfuss:  I think a large part of the reason why we develop into what we are really is the way this country industrialized and grew and had a middle-class work ethic through the mid-20th century, that shaped a lot of the way things are done. And the philosophy about why things are done, the way they're done, where there is a common viewpoint that I think is handed down from generation to generation that if you just work hard, put your nose to the grindstone, that you will be successful, and things will go your way, and you'll have a good life. I think part of what's changing that, is that this emerging generation is realizing that while that may have been true, a lot of what allowed that to be true, was frankly, taking on debt that is generational debt and handing that debt down to the next generation. So effectively exploiting the future for the benefit of the present. This younger generation isn't enthused about that as they're learning more about it, and rightly so. And they don't see a path to a traditional life as being what they aspire to. A potential reason for major shifts not having occurred in the past might have to do with economic uncertainties. For every economic depression and war to occur in the 20th century, money was pulled from education to help the war or economic problems, but that money was not necessarily given back to education. Teacher pay was often cut when other unionized jobs like factory work was not cut because there was an assumption that teachers, being mostly women, would not need to support their families. During WWII, when more women went to work in factories, those women who were still teaching saw how much better the pay was for the women who went to work in factories. The impact of war and economic troubles also resulted in  a more factory-like structure in the classroom. This was often a result of trying to accommodate a larger student population with less resources, and it was also an easier way to measure student achievement. This created an educational structure that overwhelms teachers, which makes best practices more difficult and stretches teachers thin. Molly Waterworth, who just left teaching this year after 8 years in the classroom, explains the reality of being overwhelmed as a teacher.   Molly Waterworth:  The reality is that if you have 150 kids, there's no way that you're going to grade all of their work in seven and a half hours that you have with them during the day. There's no way. It's just a mathematical impossibility.  The truth is, teachers have inherited being paid poorly, being overworked, and not being treated with respect. Sadly, much of this is associated with the trend of women in the profession within a patriarchal society. And the teaching profession is still dominated by women. The NEA reports that about 3 quarters of teachers are women, and teachers still get payed about 74% of what equivalent degreed professions earn.  So, teachers are leaving education, but the reasons they are leaving are a result of problems that have been percolating since the start of public education in the United States. Efforts at deculturalization seen with the Indian Boarding Schools have left an impact and pattern on modern education, just like the treatment of women and industrialization of education has left an impact on how teachers are currently treated.  This does not mean that public education needs to end, but like any inheritance, we need to acknowledge and deal with the problems. We need to see that there have been attempts to address inequity in education with efforts like Brown v Board in 1954, Title IX in 1972,  and the disabilities act of 1975. But continuing to return to a standardized, one-size-fits-all approach that matches an industrial structure of education just does not work – it doesn't value teacher expertise, nor does it meet the students with unique cultural backgrounds or needs where they are. And because teachers have been tasked with addressing these inequities with limited freedom and trust and resources, many are calling it quits. This needs to change – teachers need to be able to disclaim this inheritance for their sake and for the sake of their students.  Next time, we will look at how the perception of teachers might be influenced by pop-culture.  TEASE: “Robin Williams isn't going to do that.” That will be next time on Those Who Can't Teach Anymore. Thank you for listening. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share episodes with everyone you can think of. This episode was produced by me, Charles Fournier. It was edited by Melodie Edwards. Other editing help came from Noa Greenspan, Sarah-Ann Leverette, and Tennesee Watson. Voice Acting by Rory Mack, David Whisker, Rick Simineo, and Markus Viney who also offered editing help. Our theme song is by Julian Saporiti. All other music can be found on our website. A special thanks to Elizabeth Smith, Caskey Russell, Stephanie Reese, Ron Ruckman, Molly Waterworth, Christy Chadwick, Colby Gull, Mark Perkins, and Allison Lash for taking time to sit down and chat with me. This dive into history was greatly aided by two books: American Education: A History by Wayne J. Urban and Jennings L. Wagoner, Jr. and Deculturalization and the Struggle for Equality: A Brief History of the Education of Dominated Cultures in the United States by Joel Spring……This podcast is funded in part by the Fund for Teachers Fellowship.

In this episode, recorded live at ASTE, Lucas and David sit down with Dutch Silverstein, the owner of the A&M Auto Service in Pineville NC, and Mark Perkins, a multi-shop owner from Littleton, NC.Both men give back to the industry in their own way. Mark runs the ASOG mastermind group and Dutch serves on the board of the ASOG 501c3 Educational Charity.They discuss the work of the mastermind group and giving back to the industry and trying to make an impact to make it better. Are you spending your nights at the shop or worrying about the shop? Get the numbers you need to see what's going on with each tech and each profit center, thanks to advanced analytics. Get Shop-Ware.com and get some sleep.Click Here: Get Shop-Ware.comDon't miss out on AAPEX 2022! Click here to register: https://bit.ly/AAPEX-2022 Support the show

The Szabologist catches up with his good friend Mark Perkins again this time to talk about Andor episodes 5, 6 & 7. Make an announcement is the theme that we're talking about the new funny characters in the Star Wars universe we're exploring. 

Paul Finney and Mark Perkins join Charlie Wise on this week's podcast. The guys discuss all things Queen's Park Rangers and as well as a touching tribute to Arthur Perkins.

THE VIC PORCELLI SHOW 0:00 SEG 1  Missouri State Representative Nick Schroer 21:07 SEG 2  36:31 SEG 3 Brian Judy talking about Freedom Jam USA 2022 which will be held on Saturday, 9/10/2022 at the Diamond Music Hall in St Peters, MO. Headlining this spectacular country music event is Multi-Platinum Award Winning country music artist and former member of Little Texas, Brady Seals. Additional supporting artists include the up-and-coming talented Molly Lovette, Mark Perkins, and Taylor Austin Dye. www.freedomjamusa.netSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Saddle up your horse for this summer ride as James and Mia talk with a guest about teacher attrition in Wyoming. Dr. Mark Perkins from the University of Wyoming shares insights from his state-wide research sharing the teachers' perspective of education in Wyoming. Join the discussion @CowboyEDpod.

The Miserable Offenders are back and this time they're discussing some recent controversy over the Anglican reception of religious iconography. Fr. Isaac really leads the discussion here, enjoy! Articles referenced: CB Moss: The Church of England and the Seventh Council Reformation Anglicanism and Nicaea II - River Devereux On the Rightful Rejection of Nicaea II - Ben Jeffries Lancelotian Romanticism, Biblical Interpretation, and Nicaea II by Fr. Mark Perkins

The episode includes a special guest, Cow executive creative director Mark Perkins, while PRWeek editor-in-chief Danny Rogers gives his thoughts from Cannes about how the 2022 festival is shaping up.PRWeek UK's Beyond the Noise podcast, which is published on alternate weeks, looks at some of the biggest issues affecting comms and PR. Download the podcast via Apple, Spotify or your favourite platform, or listen in your browser below.Alongside regular host Frankie Oliver and PRWeek UK editor John Harrington, this podcast examines at the current state of creativity in PR, how earned media works as part of integrated campaigns, the perceptions of the industry among adland (and among clients) - and how PR agencies might fare in the PR Lions this year.Perkins, whose previous work includes the famous Christmas Tinner and Missing Type campaigns, expresses scepticism about how the metaverse is currently being used in campaigns.We also reveal which individuals or organisations have been chosen as 'Top' and 'Flop' of the past two weeks or so, from a reputation perspective. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The Szabologist and Mark talk about episodes 4 & 5 of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

In Judges the Angel of the Lord appears to Gideon. Do you know who the Angel of the Lord is- Join this review of the fascinating subject that appears numerous times throughout Scripture. See the many passages that show that this is not an angel, but is actually deity. Find out which member of the Trinity it is and ways the Word of God reveals this to us. End Bible class with an update from Mark Perkins, a missionary to Tahiti, as he details the work going on there, including ongoing work on a new translation of the Bible from the Greek and Hebrew to Tahitian.

In Judges the Angel of the Lord appears to Gideon. Do you know who the Angel of the Lord is? Join this review of the fascinating subject that appears numerous times throughout Scripture. See the many passages that show that this is not an angel, but is actually deity. Find out which member of the Trinity it is and ways the Word of God reveals this to us. End Bible class with an update from Mark Perkins, a missionary to Tahiti, as he details the work going on there, including ongoing work on a new translation of the Bible from the Greek and Hebrew to Tahitian.

In Judges the Angel of the Lord appears to Gideon. Do you know who the Angel of the Lord is? Join this review of the fascinating subject that appears numerous times throughout Scripture. See the many passages that show that this is not an angel, but is actually deity. Find out which member of the Trinity it is and ways the Word of God reveals this to us. End Bible class with an update from Mark Perkins, a missionary to Tahiti, as he details the work going on there, including ongoing work on a new translation of the Bible from the Greek and Hebrew to Tahitian.

Bixby Family Head Baseball Coach Jose Cruz Jr. discusses the Owls wins from last week against Sam Houston and UTSA with J.P. Heath. They also talk about the emergence of some young freshman players - Mark Perkins, Manny Garza, and Jack Ben-Shoshan. He also shares a perfect game memory from his time in the big leagues.First year Director of Player Development Rob Hardy hops on to explain how his connection with a member of the Owls staff brought him down from New York. He also gives J.P. a breakdown of what to do in Cooperstown, where he's been dozens of times.Sophomore closer Matthew Linskey comes to the high table and diagrams his baseball background, his favorite players growing up, and the reasons for his improvement from last season.Freshman catcher Manny Garza explains who helped him become a solid receiver, his four-hit game and his close relationship with his twin brother Eduardo, who also plays college baseball.Coach Cruz comes back for a quick look at Southern Miss and the close of the show is a happy birthday to the coach!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Join auction specialist Mathew Priddy, Historics owner Mark Perkins and special guest Edd China. They discuss breaking records, their love of eccentric projects as well as covering some of our most anticipated upcoming auctions lots.

Szabologist is joined with another long time old friend Mark Perkins to have a fun talk about The Book of Boba Fett Episode 5 The Return of the Mandalorian.  

Tim Lancaster of Indigo BioAutomation and Mark Perkins of The Binding Site join us to share how they're bringing artificial intelligence and mass spectrometry together to make significant improvements in the world of multiple myeloma.Mark's team saw a massive opportunity to improve multiple myeloma diagnostics, but they knew they needed a software partner. Tim's team at Indigo Bioautomation proved to be the perfect fit. Mark and Tim share about their powerful partnership and their journey from turning an idea to a tool that will change patients' lives.You can find more information about this podcast at sep.com/podcast and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Part 2 in our discussion with Mark Perkins.  In this conclusion of our interview we discuss how to read the mood of the fish, how to adjust your figure 8's in order to adapt to changing conditions, the impact of rusty crayfish on LOTW, and how to change your approach to bait selection as the Fall GIANT season approaches! 

Ty and producer Travis spent a weekend in Eureka, Missouri, just outside of St. Louis making new friends at Freedom Jam! Ty chats with Brian Judy, the man behind the festival, and the Special Operation Charity Network as well as artists like Mathew Roberts, Mark Perkins, Bree Morgan (in a windstorm) and Jessie Ritter! Get free Tee Party gear! www.teepartypodcast.com/free-stuffCreditsMusic - Jesse QuandtVoice Over - J. GwinnHost - Ty PisaniSounds - ZapSplat

In this episode I have a cool conversation with a great friend of mine, Mark Perkins. He and I chat about expectations in the real estate industry today, the payoff that comes from committing to the unknown, and how to achieve massive success by focusing on fundamentals. Mark Perkins is the CEO & Principal Broker of Pivot Realty Group, Commercial value-add real estate investor, and host of "The Necessary Entrepreneur" podcast.  Mark has built one of the fastest-growing real estate companies in the US, based in the Cincinnati, OH area. His relentless drive and passion for changing the lives of his agents has fueled the company to over 100 agents across multiple states. He created a podcast that inspires industry professional to shape their own futures by taking action and making the leap into entrepreneurship, one interview at a time. Check out "The Necessary Entrepreneur" podcast www.thenecessaryentrepreneur.com/ and follow him on IG @markperkinsprg If you are enjoying the podcast, please take a second and LEAVE US A REVIEW! MME is a founding member of the Industry Syndicate Podcast Network - check out the entire line-up on our website!

Mark Perkins guides out of the Shangri-La that is Obabikon Bay Camp on the famed Lake of the Woods.  In this episode Mark drops as much knowledge as we have ever had from a guest and the conversation was enlightening.  In just part one alone we covered so many points of interest like fishing in tough weather, proper hook sets, the importance of "first dark", chasing big fish, and going outside the box when the going gets tough out on the water.  We are very excited to share this episode with our listeners.  

#239: Real Estate Titans with Greg Fowler featuring special guest, Mark Perkins Follow us on Facebook: @RealEstateTitansLive Watch this episode on YouTube: Real Estate Titans Channel Greg Fowler on Instagram: @gregfowlerco Sponsored by Lion Bolt Media.  Free mini course:

Therapy of the Absurd Podcast Ep.19 Our special guests this week are Comedian Susan Wolfe and Comedian Mark Perkins. We also discuss good and bad gift ideas for the holidays. Put the kids to bed. Make a drink. Eat your edibles. Throw your feet up. Let's hang out and have some laughs. It's time for everyone's absurd therapy. Comedian Susan Wolfe: @sooz.wolfe Comedian Mark Perkins: @mikeperkins Stephen Bowman: @stephenbowmancomedy on IG, Dan Ochoa: @danochoa79 on IG, Danna Kiel: @dannakiel on IG, Stacy Ines: @stacyyines on IG, Lindsey Loon: @reallindseyloon on IG (Guest hosting)

In this episode I talk to Mark Perkins of Mark Perkins and the Outskirts. We talk about music, his military service and more. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Farm & Ranch Insurance can be very tricky and coverage options can vary greatly depending on the operation. On this Episode of the Horse Connection Clay McCullar and Travis Hawkins visited with Mark Perkins owner of Perkins Insurance about Residential, Personal and Farm & Ranch Insurance. Knowing that your operation, home or hunting property is properly covered and protected when a accident happens or disaster strikes is very important in todays day and time. Accidents happen and knowing that your home and assets are protected is vital to keeping your family and livelihood protected. If you are not sure about your coverage or have questions reach out to Mark Perkins or Keith Carrol at Perkins Insurance to see if your home and assets are properly insured and protected. Thank you Mark for coming on the show and sharing with our listeners about what they need to be asking their agents when shopping for Insurance coverage.