Spiritual Life and Leadership

Discover why leading in today's church means listening deeply to people's questions, griefs, and dreams—before ever stepping into the pulpit.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mark Glanville in Ep. 278, Preaching in Today's Post-Christian World:"People are walking to church now, not with the Bible under their arm, but with complex and genuine questions, with hopes, with dreams, with griefs on their heart, sometimes with a complex relationship with the Bible itself.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Church leaders face the complexity of guiding people who bring diverse backgrounds, questions, hopes, dreams, and griefs.Pastoral leaders prioritize listening to the congregation before offering teaching or guidance.Leaders shape sermons and leadership approaches by engaging deeply with people's real-life experiences and struggles.Adaptive leadership requires creating community among people who differ in their spiritual journeys and relationships with scripture.Effective preaching and leadership begin with meaningful relationships and conversations, not just expertise or information delivery.Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

As ministry leaders, we often imagine that building trust is the ultimate goal—once we have it, the road to transformation should be clear. But what happens when trust alone isn't enough? The truth is, trust is only the starting point. Moving beyond it requires us to invest our trust in ways that actually make change possible, even when it means taking risks and facing loss together.In this episode, Tod Bolsinger, author of Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, shares why trust is essential but insufficient for transformative leadership, how we can begin to discern our congregation's unique calling, and what it takes to wisely invest trust as we guide people through the challenges of adaptive change.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tod Bolsinger asserts that there is no transformation without trust.Leadership requires energizing a community toward its own transformation for the sake of a shared mission.People will not trust a leader to guide them through difficult change if they don't trust them with current, familiar responsibilities.Leaders build trust through both trustworthy character and technical competence.Relational congruence means consistently showing up as the same person in all relationships, reinforcing trust.Even leaders of good character need to be experienced by others as trustworthy in daily interactions.Technical competence in areas such as scripture, soul care, and organizational skills is non-negotiable for pastoral leaders.Trust is the bank account that leaders must invest (and spend) when leading adaptive or transformational change.When transformation is pursued, trust levels may decrease as change creates uncertainty and resistance.Tod Bolsinger notes that maintaining trust means not squandering it on trivial matters, but instead strategically investing it in real transformation.The process of transformation begins with clarifying a congregation's unique charism—its distinctive gift to the broader community.Charism emerges from actual values and stories, not from aspirational wish lists or debates about what a church “should” be.Discerning a congregation's charism requires telling stories about the times they were most proud of the church.Identifying a congregation's charism is followed by asking how it can address the pain points of the community, thus connecting internal giftedness with external needs.Transformation always involves loss, and truly adaptive change means some may leave, but new vibrancy and alignment with mission can develop as a result.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteBooks mentioned:Invest in Transformation: Quit Relying on Trust, by Tod BolsingerRelated episodes:230. The Power of an 8-word Mission Statement, with Tod Bolsinger264. Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh HaydenSend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Learn how transformational leaders can unlock real change by listening deeply to their neighborhoods—before making big plans for the future.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Josh Hayden in Ep. 272, Beyond Church Revitalization."Remissioning leaders have to do the steady work of exegeting the neighborhood, and doing the exegesis work of the church before they make big plans about what success or flourishing looks like for our church or our neighbors."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Remissioning leaders exegete both their neighborhoods and their churches before making big plans for success or flourishing.Leaders develop a deep understanding of their community by listening, observing, and engaging with the local context.Churches resist imposing ideas by prioritizing understanding over assumptions when entering a neighborhood.Teams uncover the unique strengths and pain points of their neighborhoods by spending devoted time within them.Faith communities help neighborhoods flourish when they build connections and respond to local needs in the name of Jesus.Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Why is it that so many ministry leaders—people called to reflect Christ's love—so often end up burned out, disillusioned, or driven by power and platform instead of humility and service? It's heartbreaking when church leadership doesn't “smell like the gospel,” and instead resembles the very systems of profit and self-promotion it should prophetically resist.In this episode, Jason Jensen, Vice President of Spiritual Foundations for InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and author of Formed to Lead, unpacks what true spiritual formation for leaders looks like, how to hold humility and faith in tension, and how suffering and the wilderness can become gifts in our ministry.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jason Jensen observes that much leadership in the church fails to reflect the gospel and often focuses on power, platform, or profit.Large numbers of Christian leaders experience burnout or moral, character, or spiritual failure, leading to disillusionment among younger generations.Jason Jensen asserts that the Gospel of Luke presents a radically different, subversive vision of leadership, centering the vulnerable and overlooked.Leadership in God's kingdom includes all people, from parents to presidents, and turns conventional power dynamics upside down.Christian leadership requires holding together the paradox of tender humility and bold faith.Jason Jensen describes the spiritual formation of a leader as a lifelong, iterative process marked by failure, repentance, and receiving the love of God.Embracing wilderness seasons—times of pain, failure, or dryness—is essential for spiritual growth and character development.Markus Watson invites Jason Jensen to share from personal experience how suffering shaped his faith and leadership, prompting stories of transformation after injury and failure.Experiencing grief, loss, and mistakes can be some of the most formative experiences for a leader's development and empathy.Depth and authenticity in leadership are formed by embracing—not bypassing—suffering and wilderness experiences.Jason Jensen highlights Steve Hayner's example of leadership, specifically his ability to listen well, include others, and help others feel loved and safe.Steve Hayner practiced “expansive discourse” and adaptive leadership, carrying pain with others and facilitating mutual learning rather than judgment.Sustainable organizational change requires time, patience, and leaders who bring everyone to the table and foster shared purpose.Offering one's life—and even one's death—as a gift to God and others represents the culmination of a spiritual journey, embodying humility, sacrifice, and openness.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jason Jensen:formedtolead.comInstagramXFacebookBooks mentioned:Formed to Lead, by Jason JensenRelated episodes:244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithSend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover why real transformation happens when leaders have the courage to journey with people into their sorrow and bring the hope of Christ to the places of deepest pain.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Andrew Root in Ep. 270, Evangelism as Consolation:"What we really need, what people yearn for, is someone who will journey with them into their sorrow and to proclaim and witness to a Jesus Christ who is present in sorrow."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders embody the gospel by journeying with people into their pain and sorrow.Churches bring transformation by listening to and addressing the pain of their neighbors.Faithful leadership means grieving alongside others while holding on to hope.Evangelism becomes good news when we accompany others in their sorrow, not just share inspiring visions.Congregations foster trust and transformation by walking with people through loss and change.Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

The COVID-19 crisis pushed churches to reimagine everything from Sunday worship to committee meetings, often thrusting them onto unfamiliar digital ground. Navigating livestreams, Zoom calls, and online communion, ministry leaders have had to ask: What does it mean to truly be the body of Christ in a hybrid or even fully online world?In this episode, Michael Huerter, author of The Hybrid Congregation, talks about the theological and practical implications of digital ministry, how technology is shaping Christian community today, and what it looks like to do incarnational ministry in a time when “embodiment” often includes both physical and digital presence.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Michael Huerter identifies the technological revolution as a challenge that forces churches to quickly adapt, especially accelerated by the COVID-19 pandemic.Churches adapted rapidly to online worship out of necessity, often improvising by streaming or recording services for the first time.Michael Huerter describes the struggle of clergy to reflect theologically about worship changes while managing weekly ministry demands.The shift to online ministry required pastors to find new ways to foster belonging and community amid isolation.Integrating online technology into church life raises theological questions but can also expand accessibility and connection.Michael Huerter explains that congregations faced difficult questions around sacraments, like communion, during virtual services and responded differently based on tradition.Worship communities discovered that virtual meetings, such as board meetings and Bible studies, created new conveniences and altered expectations for gathering together.Online ministry allows for broader participation, particularly for those unable to attend in person due to distance, weather, or health.Michael Huerter discusses the tension between the benefits of hybrid models and the losses in personal connection that come from shifting meetings and worship online.Participating in both physical and online ministry offers unique strengths and limitations in forming authentic community.The theological call to be incarnational does not require rejecting technology; rather, ministry can thoughtfully incorporate digital tools as part of discipleship.Michael Huerter pushes back against the idea that digital practices conflict with incarnational theology, highlighting historical uses of technology in church growth.Passive participation in online worship, such as listening to music or liturgy, still engages the body and spirit and remains spiritually meaningful.Michael Huerter urges pastors to approach technology with a people-first mindset, focusing on community needs rather than pursuing reach or production value for its own sake.Discernment, curiosity, and pastoral care are key for churches navigating ongoing technological changes and competing values in ministry.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Books mentioned:The Hybrid Congregation, by Michael Huerter131: Spiritual Leadership in the Digital Space, with Laura MurraySend me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Discover how stepping into discomfort and crossing borders—literal and metaphorical—can transform you and your leadership in ways you never imagined.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Seth Clark in Ep. 268, Borderless Faith:“Somehow there is this thing happening at the border that I get to participate in, that is making a difference and reminding people of God's love and hopefully drawing them into God's love in a new way.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders grow when they lean into uncomfortable situations outside their comfort zones.People foster change by entering new spaces with curiosity and a learner's mindset.Resistance offers leaders the opportunity to ask what others are trying to protect.Leaders build relationships when they come alongside those who push back.Ministry participants rediscover God's love by engaging in boundary-crossing work.Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Ministry can stir up all kinds of feelings, especially when we're dealing with conflict, with grief, with change. And the better we understand what's happening beneath the surface, the better we can lead ourselves—and our people—more thoughtfully and more effectively.In this episode, I'm speaking with Dr. Audrey Davidheiser, a licensed psychologist and the author of Grieving Wholeheartedly. Audrey helps us understand something called Internal Family Systems—IFS—a powerful way of thinking about our inner world and all those “parts” of us that can get in the way of effective leadership.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Audrey Davidheiser explains what drew her to Internal Family Systems (IFS) therapy.Internal Family Systems is a psychological model that views people as having multiple internal "parts."Parts of yourself often express themselves in day-to-day decisions, sometimes even in conflict with each other.Markus Watson clarifies that having "parts" is different from dissociative identity disorder or multiple personalities.Audrey Davidheiser explains the difference between parts in IFS and the rigid, unaware system found in Dissociative Identity Disorder.Internal Family Systems builds on the foundation of family systems theory, adapting it to the internal world.Inside everyone are parts that take on different roles, often formed in response to significant experiences, such as trauma or relational wounds.Markus Watson illustrates the concept with the example of feeling different internal responses to everyday situations like going to a late-night movie.Every person has both helpful and challenging internal parts, such as critics, achievers, or comfort-seekers, and these parts influence behavior.Audrey Davidheiser introduces three types of parts in IFS: exiles (hurt parts), managers (protective parts), and firefighters (distracting/soothing parts).Parts are not inherently bad; even when their actions are destructive, they are typically trying to protect us or relieve pain.Markus Watson inquires about the relationship between sin and IFS, prompting Audrey Davidheiser to articulate how parts can miss the mark despite good intentions.Pastors can benefit from understanding their own internal parts, especially when reacting to challenging questions or situations in ministry.Audrey Davidheiser suggests the practice of being "unblended"—letting the true Self, rather than an emotional part, lead when responding to others.Leaders who operate from their "Self" (instead of from a part) can foster healthier responses and guide their communities through change with greater empathy and wisdom.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Audrey DavidheiserAim For Breakthrough websiteBooks mentioned:Grieving Wholeheartedly, by Audrey DavidheiserRelated Episodes:262: From Fired to Flourishing, with Chuck DeGroat254: Endless Expectations and Emotional ExhaustionGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Learn how keeping “the main thing the main thing” can transform your church's mission, focus your decisions, and unite your community as one body in Christ.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Terry A. Smith in Ep. 266, The Church as Shalom Maker:"I work so hard to make sure that we keep the main thing the main thing, that we don't get caught up in things that keep us from who we are supposed to be as one body in Christ."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders clarify the main purpose by engaging in candid conversations about mission.Churches discern their mission by identifying who they are called to reach and impact.Teams make decisions more effectively when their mission and values are clearly defined.Leaders recognize that clarity about core values prepares organizations for necessary change.Focusing on the main thing helps communities avoid distractions from their calling as one body in Christ.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Bias isn't always about the big, obvious issues. Sometimes it shows up in the subtle, everyday moments—like who we compliment, who we listen to, and how we respond to change. It's part of being human, but as leaders, it's our calling to become aware of those biases so we can lead with greater humility and clarity.In this episode, Erin Devers, author of The Unbiased Self, shares the science behind bias, why it's so hard to see in ourselves, and how anchoring our identity in Christ creates the freedom to lead—and live—in a much healthier and more effective way.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Bias is anything that prevents people from seeing reality accurately, not just issues of race or gender.Erin Devers describes a "cute" experiment where giving compliments—even insincerely—boosts happiness for both giver and receiver.People underestimate how enjoyable giving and receiving compliments will be, which shows a bias against social engagement.Erin Devers highlights that everyone has biases, and recognizing them is foundational to personal and spiritual growth.People have a "bias blind spot," making it much easier to see others' biases than their own.Erin Devers emphasizes Jesus' teaching about removing the plank from one's own eye as a reference to addressing personal bias.Self-esteem plays a major role in bias, as people spin stories to feel good about themselves, sometimes at the expense of accuracy.Attempts to feel right and to feel good about oneself are two core sources of bias in human thinking.Markus Watson connects the discussion to everyday church life, pointing out how bias impacts how pastors perceive congregants.Erin Devers explains that a secure identity as a child of God and sinner saved by grace allows Christians to pursue accuracy rather than always needing to be right.Rooting identity in something secure—whether faith-based or intrinsic human value—helps people approach disagreement with less defensiveness.Broadening perspective, such as considering larger life questions or relational values, helps reduce bias in emotionally charged situations.Erin Devers discusses the difference between fast thinking (quick, automatic judgments) and slow thinking (deliberate, reflective thought) and how both relate to bias.Habit formation and intentional practices like reducing social media can create space for deeper connection, reflection, and less biased engagement within communities.Markus Watson addresses how pastors identify which congregants will support or resist change, revealing how bias shapes leadership decisions.Erin Devers encourages church leaders to acknowledge the collective bias toward doing what is easiest when leading change, while grounding stability in God's presence.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Erin Devers, Indiana Wesleyan UniversityBooks mentioned:The Unbiased Self, by Erin DeversRelated episodes:252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai AumanGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Learn how small, daring experiments from the edges can spark meaningful change in your church—without sending everyone into panic mode.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Raymond Chang in Ep. 164, Building a Future-Focused Church."We recommend that people consider additional, and smaller experiments from the edges that are likely to move the congregation in the direction that it needs to go without being too disruptive."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders move congregations forward by initiating small experiments rather than launching large, disruptive initiatives.Congregations learn and adapt best when leaders guide them through a series of modest, incremental changes.Leaders invite trust and participation when they approach change as co-learners rather than as experts.Experimenting at the margins allows churches to discover real community needs before making significant shifts.Genuine experiments help congregations clarify their direction by focusing on questions and learning rather than predetermined outcomes.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!What do you do when the tried-and-true ways of doing church just aren't working anymore? When everything you once relied on—Sunday services, eye-catching signage, the best coffee in the foyer—still leaves your church feeling disconnected from your community?In this episode, Shannon Kiser, author of Opening Space: A Vision for Fresh Expressions of Church and Creative Mission, shares about what “fresh expressions” of church means, why the old attractional models are no longer enough, and how ministry leaders can begin to reimagine church for a spiritually curious but institutionally wary world.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson shares statistics that reveal most American churches are plateaued or declining, and the majority of major denominations are aging.Shannon Kiser urges church leaders to rethink how they engage with a spiritually curious culture that may be wary of traditional church settings.Many people possess spiritual curiosity even if they are hesitant or unwilling to attend church gatherings.Markus Watson describes how even the physical space of a church building can feel intimidating and unfamiliar to outsiders.Shannon Kiser explains that Fresh Expressions seeks to equip leaders to start new forms of Christian community tailored to their local context.Fresh Expressions focuses on innovative gatherings—like dinner churches, hiking groups, or park meetups—rather than just worship services.Markus Watson asks Shannon Kiser to define Fresh Expressions and how they originated from creative responses to declining church attendance in the UK.Shannon Kiser describes Fresh Expressions as new forms of church that often look very different from traditional Sunday morning gatherings.Healthy churches should diversify their ministry approaches and embrace what Shannon Kiser calls a "blended ecology."Focusing solely on Sunday attendance and budgets is unlikely to reverse church decline.Markus Watson highlights the impact stories from the church's outreach—such as coffee shops and lunch ministries—can have on the congregation's spiritual vitality.Congregations can raise their spiritual temperature and feel more alive by engaging in mission outside their traditional gatherings.Shannon Kiser recommends listening to the community and beginning with simple, small experiments that fit the church's context and resources.Forming Fresh Expressions requires different types of people: pioneers who connect and lead, permission givers who open doors, and supporters who help behind the scenes.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Fresh Expressions websiteBooks mentioned:Opening Space, by Shannon KiserRelated episodes:177. Exploring New Forms of Church, with Shannon Kiser264. Building a Future-Focused church, with Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang272. Beyond Church Revitalization, with Josh HaydenGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Learn how real transformation in leadership begins when we shift our focus from what's happening to us to what's happening within us.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Chuck DeGroat in Ep. 262, Fro Fired to Flourishing.“I had to turn my attention from what happened to me to what was happening within me."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Change leaders cultivate self-awareness by focusing on their internal responses rather than solely external circumstances.Transformative leadership requires individuals to process their own emotional reactions before leading others through change.Leaders grow when they move beyond blaming external events and explore what pain reveals about their deeper character.Navigating difficult transitions means finding growth by going through challenges, not simply avoiding or getting over them.Lasting change in ministry or leadership begins when individuals reflect on and learn from their personal setbacks.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!More and more, we find ourselves living in what we might call a post-Christian society.  And more and more, preachers and ministry leaders are finding that the methods they were trained in don't always resonate in a post-Christian context. In this episode, Mark Glanville, the author of Preaching in a New Key, brings together his experience as a jazz musician, pastor, and a scholar of the Old Testament to invite us into a new vision for preaching—one that helps us navigate the transition from Christian to post-Christian culture. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Mark Glanville explains that both jazz and Christian faith involve learning and internalizing tradition, then improvising freshly within it.Jazz musicians practice and absorb the rhythms and melodies of their tradition, but always play something new in performance.Mark Glanville illustrates how biblical preachers should immerse themselves in scripture, becoming shaped by its themes and stories, much like jazz musicians learn their craft.The biblical tradition requires creative and contextual re-interpretation, as seen in how ancient scribes reimagined the metaphor of covenant.Preaching in a post-Christian society means recognizing that faith no longer enjoys cultural support and must grapple with mixed experiences of doubt and trust.Mark Glanville describes post-Christian contexts as places where church and societal values diverge, making the preaching task more complex.Congregants bring complex emotional and spiritual questions to church, rather than the simple expectation of receiving trusted doctrine.Markus Watson notes that contemporary preaching requires greater sensitivity, awareness of listeners' stories, and often more lyrical, dialogical communication.Mark Glanville emphasizes gaining relational intelligence through ongoing pastoral conversations and deep listening with parishioners.Preaching today involves “reversing the flow”—rather than proclaiming “thus says the Lord,” preachers reveal the beauty of Jesus within the text and invite fresh connection.Mark Glanville highlights that healthy preaching depends on the preacher's own healthy inner and emotional life.Preachers must recognize when they are operating from their “defended self”—speaking from wounds or fear, rather than from a secure, loving place in Christ.Scripture addresses communities, not individuals, so preaching should prioritize communal formation and invite congregations to embody Christ together.Mark Glanville encourages pastors to preach, model, and pray for the transformation they seek, stirring the congregation's collective imagination and trusting the Spirit to work through everyone, not just the leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Mark Glanville:Website – www.markglanville.orgBlue Note Theology podcastBooks mentioned:Preaching in a New Key, by Mark GlanvilleRefuge Reimagined, by Mark Glanville and Luke GlanvilleRelated episodes:250. The Prophetic Challenge of DecoGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Discover why true leadership means having the courage to make tough decisions—even when it means disappointing the people you care about most.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rich Stearns in Ep. 105, Courageous Leadership."Leaders have to make difficult decisions.  And difficult decisions require courage."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders cultivate courage by making difficult decisions that may disappoint their own people.Adaptive leaders accept that faithfully living out the mission often requires sacrificing personal approval.Great leaders guide people through uncomfortable transformation, not just toward easy change.Leaders strengthen their courage by surrounding themselves with friends, partners, and mentors.True leadership calls communities to transformational journeys, even when the leader personally bears the cost.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In a world that celebrates rapid growth, platform-building, and constant success, it's easy to take on leadership strategies that promise bigger, better, and faster results. But when these approaches clash with the invitation of Jesus to embrace the cross, where does true, lasting influence come from?In this episode, Nicole Massie Martin, author of Nailing It, unpacks the spiritual paradox at the heart of healthy leadership—how surrender, humility, and even seasons of struggle can form us as leaders and empower the people we serve.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCUDE:Christian leaders often merge values like maximizing and growing their ministries, risking a "resurrection only" mindset that ignores suffering.Markus Watson highlights that the moments of deepest closeness with God often emerge from times of pain.Nicole Martin frames power neutrally, stating that its impact depends on how leaders use it—to empower or to hoard.Power must be used for God's glory and for empowering others, not for self-aggrandizement.Markus Watson admits that the temptation for influence and control is a real struggle in leadership, even when intentions are good.Nicole Martin explains that surrendering power as a leader looks like developing teams and creating an environment where others feel empowered to fulfill their calling.Nicole Martin shares a personal story of feeling powerless as a board member until another leader affirmed her authority and encouraged her participation.Empowerment should be modeled by leaders who intentionally invite others to use their own power and gifts.Ego is complex and influenced by cultural worldviews such as honor-shame, guilt-innocence, and power-fear.Nicole Martin emphasizes the importance of anchoring one's self-worth in the love of God, not in achievement or shame.Markus Watson describes how personal failure and pain loosened his unhealthy grip on ego and led him to ground his worth in being God's beloved.Nicole Martin asserts that healthy ego in leadership is characterized by deep confidence, humility, and openness, rooted in one's belovedness by God.Leaders must recalibrate their pace and surrender speed to God's timing, resisting the burnout that comes from adopting the relentless pace of the world.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Christianity TodaySoulfire International MinistriesBooks mentioned:Nailing It, by Nicole Massie MartinLife of the Beloved, by Henri NouwenAbba's Child, by Brennan ManningSurrender to Love, by David BennerEmotionally Healthy Spirituality, by Peter ScazeroFalling Upward, by Richard RohrRelated episodes:112. The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette252. Navigating the Pain of Being Othered, with Jenai AumanClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In a post-pandemic world, what does it really mean to be a “small,” “mid-sized,” or even “very large” church? Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore Thom Rainer's recommendations to recategorize church size, reflect on the unique strengths and challenges of congregations of all sizes, and examine why church health and faithfulness matter more than impressive attendance numbers. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or simply curious about the evolving landscape of church leadership, this episode challenges us to rethink our assumptions—and reminds us that fruitful ministry comes in every size.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this article by Thom Rainer: "The New Very Large Church."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Church leaders reframe success by focusing on fruitfulness rather than congregation size.Pastors adapt their leadership style to match the unique needs of different-sized churches.Post-pandemic, churches redefine size categories to reflect new attendance realities.Faithful, missionally active congregations thrive regardless of their numerical growth.Discernment and subtraction become vital leadership skills when resources decrease.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Work hurt is real, and ministry leaders aren't exempt. Whether it's being let go, navigating toxic work environments, or simply enduring deep disappointments, our vocational pain can shape us in ways we never expected—and often never wanted.In this episode, author of When Work Hurts, shares her own journey through work hurt, explores the different ways leaders experience vocational pain, and offers practical and spiritual resources for healing and resilience. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Meryl Herr shares her personal story of “work hurt” and how it led her to address the topic in her work and writing. Meryl Herr describes feeling disillusioned early in her career when her expectations for work did not align with reality, leading to discouragement and even unexpected job loss. Work hurt occurs when people sustain physical or psychological injuries in their workplace. Meryl Herr categorizes work hurt as stemming from toxic systems, unhealthy cultures, issues of job fit, and personal mistakes. Work hurt can be experienced as disappointment, disillusionment, or devastation, each having different causes and emotional impacts. Meryl Herr notes that people's tolerance for disappointment, disillusionment, and devastation is highly individual. Significant numbers of workers experience work hurt, including burnout, discrimination, and disengagement, as reflected in recent research and statistics. Discrimination and harassment at work affect certain demographic groups more acutely, highlighting systemic injustice and inequity. Meryl Herr stresses the need for individuals to acknowledge and process their work-related pain, rather than internalizing it or transmitting it to others. If people do not transform their work pain, they risk transmitting it as cynicism, projection, or stress in personal and family relationships. Community support, honest conversation, prayer—especially lament—and listening to God are central strategies for healing from work hurt. Meryl Herr encourages practices of discerning God's presence and call, likening vocational discernment to “wayfinding” that requires attention to context, one's gifts, and God's invitation. Being called to a vocation or job does not mean one is exempt from pain or suffering; Meryl Herr and Markus Watson both connect this to biblical examples of hardship in the midst of calling. Pastors play an important role by understanding and addressing the work hurt in their congregations and by providing practical, emotional, and spiritual support. Meryl Herr recommends cultivating “everyday faithfulness,” showing up and doing the daily work set before us as a foundational way to keep moving forward through disruption, loss, and fear.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Meryl Herr:Website – www.merylherr.comDePree Center for LeadershipBooks mentioned:When Work Hurts, by Meryl HerrFalling Upward, by Ruchard RohrRelated episodes:114. Meaningful Work, Get Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Drawing on the challenges of feeling marginalized and the importance of resting in God's love, this episode explores the vital role that self-compassion plays in leadership. Tod Bolsinger shares wisdom on facing anxiety and insecurity, especially when leaders are stepping into the unknown and leaving behind their expertise. Instead of "faking it till you make it," Tod encourages authenticity, resilience, and building trust within a community.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jenai Auman in Ep. 252: Navigating the Pain of Being “Othered”:"Sometimes I need to experience self-compassion and quell the insecurity within me so I can extend compassion and love to my neighbor."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders cultivate self compassion to address their own insecurity before extending compassion to others.Adaptive leaders acknowledge their anxiety and insecurity rather than suppressing or faking confidence.Leaders practice honesty with themselves and those they lead about the difficulties and uncertainties of new challenges.Leaders invite trustworthy people to join them in facing the unknown, creating a supportive environment.Leaders embrace authenticity and vulnerability as central to healthy and transformative leadership.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Josh Hayden, the author of Remissioning Church: A Field guide for Bringing a Congregation Back to Life, shares wisdom from his own journey—moving from church planting to leading a 158-year-old congregation—and he helps us understand the difference between revitalization and remissioning.  He also talks about the power of what he calls “creative destruction” and reflects on the hope that churches and people really can change. If you are a ministry leader wondering how to lead your church through deep transformation and discovering a renewed mission, you'll find both encouragement and practical guidance in this conversation.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Josh Hayden explains that remissioning involves inside-out transformation of the church through discipleship for the sake of neighbors and the world.Revitalization focuses on refreshing existing programs, while remissioning addresses deeper, DNA-level transformation.Josh Hayden underscores the importance of listening first—both to the church and the neighborhood—before making plans for change.Markus Watson highlights the challenge new pastors face in established churches, including resistance, sabotage, and managing change.Remissioning leaders must exegete both their congregation and their community to identify gaps and opportunities for meaningful connection.Josh Hayden stresses that successful remissioning requires teamwork; pastors must not attempt change alone.Markus Watson reflects on the emotional challenges of change, including the shame spiral that can occur when a church confronts its shortcomings.Josh Hayden illustrates the shame spiral with an example of unnoticed “No Running in the Halls” signs that undermined stated values of hospitality.Remissioning involves inviting the congregation into a process of repentance, learning, and transformation, rather than imposing outside solutions.Josh Hayden shares how tradition-to-innovation means honoring a church's history while translating it into practices that serve current needs.Experiments in ministry should create shared experiences that allow for evaluation, learning, and adaptation over time.Josh Hayden describes creative destruction as embracing necessary endings so new life can emerge, drawing analogy from nature and industry.Effective change involves creating feedback loops, town hall conversations, and allowing time for the congregation to process and adapt.Not all experiments or changes need to succeed; failed experiments still provide valuable lessons for ongoing transformation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Josh Hayden:Iwa Collabora websiteBooks mentioned:Remissioning Church, by Josh HaydenCanoeing the Mountains, by Tod BolsingerRelated episodes:16. Canoeing the Mountains, with Tod Bolsinger192. Leading Change Without Authority, with Roy Inzunza264. Building a Future-Focused Church, with Kara Powell, Jake MGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger unpack the fascinating connection between the Latin roots of “prayer” and “precarious”—suggesting that it's often in our most uncertain moments that we're drawn into deeper dependence on God. Together, they explore how precarious situations not only shape our leadership but also form and mature our prayer lives. You'll also hear practical wisdom on leading others in prayer through times of change and how discernment, rather than just asking God to bless our plans, is central to a healthy approach to leadership.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jeff Hoffmeyer in Ep. 246: Have We Forgotten to Pray?:"The Latin word for prayer is the same root for ‘precarious'. So, I think when we're in a precarious situation, God's desire is that we'll be driven to dependence on prayer."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders cultivate their prayer lives in the midst of precarious situations.Leaders experience spiritual formation when they become aware of their dependence on God.Leaders guide their congregations into discernment by seeking God's voice together.Leaders model a deep prayer life by honestly acknowledging their limitations.Leaders resist making plans independently and instead invite God to direct their path.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!For a lot of us, evangelism has become kind of utilitarian—just another tool to stop our church's decline and hopefully secure a future for our congregation. But what if, instead of simply trying to grow our numbers or help people go to heaven when they die, we reframed evangelism as an act of journeying alongside people in their deepest pain, bringing truly good news to those who are struggling to find hope?In this episode, Andrew Root, the author of Evangelism in an Age of Despair, challenges us to rethink evangelism as a ministry of consolation—a ministry that meets people where they are, in moments of suffering and loneliness.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Andrew Root defines what he means by "the age of despair" and whose despair he references.Andrew Root explains that despair is a widespread cultural malaise, marked by sadness, unhappiness, and a rise in loneliness and rage.Despair in the world is not just circumstantial, but is rooted in the cultural emphasis on pursuing happiness, which ironically increases unhappiness.Andrew Root describes two forms of despair in the church: one shared with the wider culture, and the other, a fear of decline and extinction unique to congregations.Churches are tempted to view evangelism mainly as a way to increase attendance and avoid closing, rather than as sharing good news.Markus Watson reflects that treating evangelism as a utilitarian tool for survival creates questions about the real motivation for sharing the gospel.Evangelism should be understood as contextual and as a way of consoling neighbors in moments of loss, rather than following a fixed formula.Andrew Root states that the central work of evangelism involves the theology of consolation—being present with others in their brokenness and grief.Evangelism is about responding to Jesus's call and helping people encounter Him, especially within their contexts of sorrow and loneliness.Andrew Root discusses the failure of social media and modern culture to offer true consolation or presence to people in grief.Consolation involves walking with people through suffering, which is an important aspect of Christian tradition and a necessity in these lonely times.Markus Watson observes that the traditional “four spiritual laws” approach doesn't address the needs of people experiencing profound sorrow.Andrew Root argues that faithfulness in the church is not simply measured by numerical growth, and that addressing people's suffering is not a distraction from its mission.Evangelism should invite people to join a pilgrimage, walking together through sorrow and loss toward a deeper encounter with God.The church's calling is to create communities that walk with others in their pain, offering hope and the presence of Christ, instead of merely aiming for church growth.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Andrew Root:WebsiteBooks mentioned:Evangelism in an Age of Despair, by Andrew Root The Church After Innovation, by Andrew Root The Promise of Despair, by Andrew RootGet Becoming Leaders of Shalom for free HERE.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In this episode, Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore what it really means to lead with care—especially when consensus isn't possible and someone might get hurt. Tod brings his insight on adaptive leadership, highlighting the tension between seeking unity and making tough, missional choices that can disappoint or cause pain. Together, Markus and Tod reflect on how Jesus modeled mission-centered leadership, caring for people while staying true to his calling—even when it meant letting others down.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Marc Schelske in Ep. 258: Walking the Path of Other-Centered Leadership:“If I really love all the people that are impacted by this decision, then this decision has to be consensual."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders foster togetherness when they involve everyone in the decision-making process.Healthy leadership accepts that some decisions will inevitably cause pain or disappointment.Groups achieve consensus when everyone commits to follow the chosen path, even amidst disagreement.Leadership requires balancing love for people with dedication to the organization's mission.Leaders best serve their communities when they offer care to those most affected by painful decisions.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!What does ministry look like when your church gathers at the very place that's meant to divide? In this episode, Seth Clark invites us into the powerful story of The Border Church, where the simple act of worship confronts separation with the radical unity of God's love, and where he and his congregants—on both sides of the wall—have had to adapt to a reality in which the powers make it harder and harder for them to worship together.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Seth Clark describes the Border Church as a practice of publicly experiencing God's presence and unity at a site of division.The Border Church centers its ministry around sharing holy communion as a visible act of God's love in a divided context.Seth Clark explains how families from both sides have long used Friendship Park to connect despite restrictive border policies.Border Church started as periodic communion services at the border and gradually grew into a more structured worship community.Seth Clark recounts the agreement that allowed Friendship Park to open for limited hours on weekends, enabling regular gatherings.Physical barriers at the border forced participants to adapt, sharing only a pinky touch through the mesh as a sign of peace.Leadership of the Border Church came by community discernment when the founding pastor stepped down, Seth Clark shares.Border Church functions without a traditional building, requiring creative leadership and adaptability in its pastoral approach.The COVID-19 pandemic and persistent border lockdowns have forced the church to continually reinvent how it worships and connects.Seth Clark highlights the shift of pastoral needs toward the Mexico side as waves of migrants and asylum seekers increased.Border Church supports partnerships with local shelters, providing meals and spiritual care for migrants waiting at the border.Markus Watson explores the deep sense of loss, frustration, and adaptation that accompanies changes to how the Border Church operates.Seth Clark emphasizes the importance of faithfulness over visible results, especially when facing circumstances beyond one's control.Leading through loss involves distinguishing between what can and cannot be changed, and supporting people in navigating change and grief.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:The Border Church:FacebookInstagram - @theborderchurchBooks mentioned:Church at the Wall, by Seth ClarkRelated episodes:88. The Border Church, with Seth Clark119. Being Leaders of Grace in a Divided World, with Kirsten Powers120. Forming Leadership Resilience, with Tod BolsingerClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This conversation reflects on the urgent need for genuine transformation in the church, rather than simply tweaking what isn't working. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the signs that point to deeper issues—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnating giving—and why now is the time for a true “hero's journey” of change, not just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Rex Miller in Ep. 254: Digital Disruption and the Future of the Church:"There are some telltale signs that it's time to go on a hero's journey. One telltale sign is we're plateauing in our membership. Or our members are getting older.  Or our giving is plateauing. Now is not the time to try to rearrange the chairs on the Titanic.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Church leaders recognize critical signs—like plateauing membership, aging congregations, and stagnant giving—that indicate the need for deep transformation.Leaders create only superficial change when they settle for “rearranging the chairs on the Titanic” instead of tackling the root issues.Effective leadership requires admitting when you don't know what to do and being willing to learn all over again.Leaders lose key, healthy members when they make ministry primarily about themselves rather than about something greater.Transformation happens when leaders embrace adaptive change, let go of their expertise, and journey into new ways of leading.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Shalom is a biblical concept that goes far beyond our usual understanding of “peace.” It's about healing, fulfillment, and every part of life coming together as God intended. For ministry leaders, this vision of shalom changes everything about how we lead, serve, and even think about the mission of the church.In this episode, Terry A. Smith, author of The Lord Give You Peace, explores what shalom really means, why it's at the heart of God's mission, and how we as ministry leaders can become bringers of Shalom in and beyond our churches.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson invites Terry A. Smith to share how the concept of shalom became important in his life and faith.Terry A. Smith explains that encountering Tim Keller's writing helped him see shalom as the way God intended things to be.Shalom means more than just "peace"—it encompasses wholeness, flourishing, harmony, prosperity, and well-being.Terry A. Smith describes shalom as holistic well-being, productive flourishing, and happy fulfillment.Shalom involves every dimension of life: psychological, spiritual, physical, and relational wellness.Flourishing in shalom is not passive but should lead to positive, productive fruit in the world.Fulfillment includes experiencing deep happiness and contentment rooted in hope and connection with God.Markus Watson reflects that God's mission for Creation is to restore shalom on every level—between humans and God, with each other, within ourselves, and with creation.Terry A. Smith affirms that the presence of brokenness and lack of shalom is due to the fall and the "vandalization" of God's intentions.People can still taste and participate in shalom, even while living in a broken world.Terry A. Smith highlights that many biblical promises of shalom are directed at people in exile or less-than-ideal circumstances, encouraging hope and action.The church's calling includes being a model of unity and peace, creating opportunities for shalom in relationships and community.Terry A. Smith describes his church's intentional pursuit of diversity, unity, and partnership with local organizations as active shalom-making.Creating an environment of hospitable leadership fosters a culture where people and their God-given dreams flourish.Leaders who embody shalom can better guide others through change, adversity, and growth by bringing wholeness and well-being into every situation.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Website – terryasmith.comThe Life Christian ChurchBooks mentioned:The Lord Give You Peace, by Terry A. SmithNot the Way It's Supposed to Be, by Cornelius Plantinga, Jr.The Hospitable Leader, by Terry A. SmithRelated episodes:134. How to Help Your City Thrive, with Amy Sherman140. Bathed in Grace, with Matt Tebbe and Ben Sternke157. Seamless Leadership, with Steve GarberClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This episode explores the critical role awareness plays in avoiding burnout and fostering healthy leadership practices. Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss personal anecdotes and practical strategies to cultivate awareness, so we can better navigate the challenges that come our way. Whether you're leading a team or just trying to lead a more intentional life, this conversation is packed with insights to help you break free from autopilot mode and make mindful adjustments for a more effective and fulfilling leadership journey.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Jonathan Hoover in Ep. 254: Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion:“Awareness is a precursor to adjustment.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Awareness aids leaders in recognizing when they approach burnout.Well-trained leaders naturally navigate crises using second nature skills.Developing awareness prompts leaders to stop, assess shifts, and adjust effectively.Noticing emotions or bodily sensations signals leaders to pause and reflect.Naming issues in a room empowers leaders to identify and implement adjustments.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Is the future of the church something to look forward to, or does it scare you to death.  Thriving into the future will require change, and the idea of changing the way we lead, or the way we do church, or the people we reach out to, can feel overwhelming.  Even if we want to do it, where do we even start?In this episode, Kara Powell, Jake Mulder, and Raymond Chang share insights from their new book, Future Focused Church, where they explore adaptive leadership and offer practical tools to help ministry leaders guide their congregations through meaningful transformation.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Kara Powell asserts that the best days of the church are ahead despite current challenges.Kara Powell credits her optimism for the church's future to her theology and understanding of God's goodness.Church leaders should focus on the three checkpoints: relationally discipling young people, modeling kingdom diversity, and tangibly loving their neighbors.Jake Mulder explains the concept of a journey in church change, emphasizing the importance of checkpoints along the way.Jake Mulder lists the four zones of church change as here, there, who, and how.Jake Mulder states that a majority of change efforts fail due to outdated approaches and skills.Transformation in the church should not be a solo effort and requires a diverse transformation team, as Jake Mulder explains.Raymond Chang highlights how experimenting from the edges with small changes can lead to progress without being too disruptive.Churches often suffer from a lack of follow-through rather than a dramatic flaw when trying to implement change.Raymond Chang highlights the sons of Issachar as an example of understanding the times and discerning God's direction.Maintaining disciplined attention is crucial, as Kara Powell emphasizes, to ensure cultural change efforts do not falter.Jake Mulder shares the importance of a diverse transformation team of five to twelve people representing different perspectives for effective guidance in church change.Jake Mulder notes that the process of church change is not about where leaders want to go, but where God is leading.The journey between a church's current state and its future should begin with gathering the right team of people.Kara Powell shares an example where a church emphasizes youth engagement through consistent, simple actions like attending youth events.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Future-Focused Church websiteBooks mentioned:Future-Focused Church, by Kara Powel, Jake Mulder, and Ray ChangRelated episodes:222. Building a Multi-Inclusive Church, with Efrem Smith and Dan Kreiss242. Life and Leadership in the Fog, with Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton256. Digital Disruption Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss insights on the importance of developing leaders who are skilled in curious listening and creating a collaborative environment where ideas are shared and valued. The conversation uncovers how shifting from monologue to dialogue can not only empower communities but also lead to more meaningful adaptive leadership in times of change.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Scot McKnight in Ep 250, The Prophetic Challenge of Deconstruction:“The evangelical world does not have a culture of conversation.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders improve their effectiveness by first listening before proclaiming.Sharing leadership with a team fosters better decision-making through collaboration.Engaging in conversations helps leaders adapt to situations without clear solutions.Encouraging conversations empowers groups by promoting shared ownership.Feeling heard validates individuals and supports their faith journey.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In his newest book, Chuck DeGroat offers a deeply personal account of his journey of being fired from a ministry position and the stress surrounding that experience that ultimately led to a life-changing health crisis. But it was that crisis that showed him the much deeper inner healing he needed.In this episode, Chuck DeGroat discusses not only his experience of deep inner healing, but also the need for inner healing for all of us who are ministry leaders.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Chuck DeGroat highlights his experience with the autonomic nervous system and its role in managing past trauma, indicating how unresolved trauma can manifest in physical and emotional symptoms.Engaging with our bodies helps reveal unaddressed shame and grief, which many individuals, including pastors, tend to bury.Chuck DeGroat shares his story of being fired from a church, leading him to recognize the necessity of inner reflection and healing for effective ministry leadership.Neglecting emotional health often leads to physical symptoms, illustrating the body's way of signaling unresolved emotional turmoil.Chuck DeGroat describes his journey from placing blame externally to focusing on internal work, which allows for more authentic healing.Constant activation of the sympathetic nervous system can have detrimental effects on one's health, indicating the importance of addressing stress and trauma.Chuck DeGroat encourages pastors and leaders to engage in regular practices that foster a calm and centered emotional state, aiding in spiritual insight and leadership.Successful healing involves consistently attending to emotional and physical cues from our bodies, signaling deeper underlying issues.Chuck DeGroat explains practices that help individuals transition from a survival mindset to a state of calm connection, enhancing overall well-being.Regular and intentional understanding of our body's signals is crucial for maintaining emotional health and preventing future burnout.Addiction often serves as an attempted solution to address deeper inner wounds, which requires a more nuanced understanding in the context of spiritual counseling.Chuck DeGroat discusses the value of acknowledging and understanding one's inner child to achieve authenticity and awareness in spiritual leadership.Differentiating between various parts of oneself allows for a clearer understanding of internal struggles and promotes healthier decisions.Effective spiritual and emotional growth requires addressing core issues beyond behavior, thereby promoting sustainable change and authentic leadership.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Chuck DeGroatWestern Theological SeminaryBooks mentioned:Healing What's Within, by Chuck DeGroatWhen Narcissism Comes to Church, by Chuck DeGroatRelated episodes:82. Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins254. Endless Expectations and Emotional Exhaustion, with Jonathan HooverClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger explore Mandy Smith's powerful words on combating darkness and feelings of futility in leadership. Tod reflects on his own struggles with imposter syndrome and insecurity, highlighting the need for honesty and spiritual practices to overcome these challenges.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Mandy Smith in Ep 244, Finding Strength in Desperation:“Every week I have to stand up there and press against this darkness that wants us to be quiet.  And wants to come against us and disrupt our sleep; and disrupt our sense of well-being; and tell us that nothing we do makes any difference.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Spiritual leaders must acknowledge and resist darkness that seeks to undermine their efforts and well-being.Tod Bolsinger shares that addressing insecurities and imposter syndrome builds resilience in ministry.Church leaders should recognize that leadership is about serving and pointing to Jesus, not about personal validation.Adopting a Jewish perspective on the Sabbath, Tod practices trust in God by resting, demonstrating faith in God's control.Addressing self-doubt and learning to trust in divine purpose helps leaders mitigate anxiety and retain their focus on meaningful service.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Matt Colwell, Senior Pastor at Knox Presbyterian Church in Pasadena, California, shares his raw, personal journey of losing his home to the Eaton Fire in Altadena and how he has continued to shepherd a congregation facing the same devastating loss. This conversation unpacks the layers of adaptive leadership in the midst of crisis, the importance of building community before the crisis happens, and the powerful ways we can discover God's presence and provision when life goes off the rails. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Matt Colwell shares his experience of losing his home in the Los Angeles Eaton Fire and navigating the aftermath.The fire in Altadena caused widespread destruction, with only one house surviving in Matt Colwell's neighborhood.Matt Colwell narrates the sequence of events during the fire evacuation, detailing his family's actions and decisions.Matt Colwell explains the mixed emotions of shock and disbelief, and how it unfolded as he processed the loss.The unexpected loss of a home can be overwhelming as individuals process the emotional and logistical aspects.Matt Colwell expresses the challenges of balancing personal recovery with pastoral responsibilities.As a pastor, losing a home can provide unique empathy and understanding when caring for others experiencing loss.The power of community and compassion plays a significant role in Matt Colwell's healing process after the fire.Preaching shortly after a personal crisis can be both healing and hopeful, as experienced by Matt Colwell.Leading adaptively requires recognizing and focusing on core values while responding to rapid changes.Matt Colwell emphasizes the ongoing challenge and necessity of long-term rebuilding and recovery efforts.The impact of climate change on the frequency and severity of natural disasters is a critical issue to address.Adaptive leadership in crisis involves leveraging support networks, personal resilience, and spiritual practices to navigate and recover from challenges.Establishing and maintaining community connections proves invaluable when dealing with large-scale crises.Matt Colwell discusses the collaboration with his neighborhood to support collective recovery and rebuilding efforts.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Knox Presbyterian ChurchPresbyterian Disaster AssistanceCreation Justice MinistriesOn Mission NetworkRelated episodes:220. Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis, with Gayle Beebe242. Life and Leadership in the Fog, with Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore how leadership often feels like moving through a dense fog where vision is limited. Tod shares his thoughts on the importance of valuing enduring principles over having a clear vision in times of rapid change. He emphasizes that being anchored in unchangeable values and the mission of our faith can guide us through uncertain landscapes. The conversation also unpacks the role of Jesus and the Spirit in adaptive leadership, highlighting the need to align our actions with what Jesus is doing in the world.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 242, Life and Leadership in the Fog:"That's what it means to belong to Jesus, that even in the fog, he can be trusted."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders face fog by walking in faith, not just relying on vision.Leadership requires clarity on unchanging values amidst a rapidly changing world.Clear, essential values guide leaders when vision is uncertain.Adaptive leadership involves aligning with Jesus' ongoing work in the world.Trusting Jesus in the fog fortifies leaders' commitment and direction.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!True ministry leadership isn't about power; it's about love in action. It's about stepping into the self-giving, co-suffering way of Jesus, even when it feels counterintuitive. This kind of leadership doesn't seek control but embraces humility, sacrifice, and deep connection with those we serve.In this episode, Marc Schelske, pastor of Bridge City Community Church and author of Walking Otherward, unpacks how embracing this kind of love reshapes our leadership, strengthens our churches, and helps us navigate the challenges of ministry with grace and wisdom.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Marc Schelske introduces the concept of other-centered, co-suffering love as a key aspect of following Jesus.The phrase "other-centered, co-suffering love" encompasses love that is conscious of others and willing to bear their burdens.Marc Schelske emphasizes the significance of Philippians 2 and Jesus' journey to Jerusalem as examples of this love.Jesus' journey to Jerusalem symbolizes a path that is not self-centered but oriented towards others.Self-centered, ego-defending ambition contrasts sharply with the way Jesus modeled leadership.Marc Schelske reflects on his own leadership transition, focusing on how he learned to disconnect identity from numerical success.Leadership driven by other-centered, co-suffering love requires holding space for others to process change at their own pace.Marc Schelske explains the importance of allowing time in decision-making processes to foster consensual and loving leadership.The fear of death and discomfort often drives the desire for control and power within leadership.Marc Schelske discusses creating communities where multiple perspectives can coexist without division.Churches must embrace a posture of vulnerability and humility in their leadership practices.Marc Schelske highlights that love acts by consent, meaning decisions should include space for honest dialogue and dissent.Co-suffering love challenges traditional notions of leadership by prioritizing presence over power.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Marc Schelske:Website - https://marcalanschelske.com/Bridge City Community ChurchBooks mentioned:Walking Otherward, by Marc SchelskeFalling Upward, by Richard RohrRelated episodes:206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimmage, with Jon Huckins236. Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church, with David Quel240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli ChiClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss the importance of acknowledging when leaders feel overwhelmed and how critical it is to slow down and reflect rather than react impulsively. Through engaging metaphors and practical advice, they share strategies for adaptive leadership, highlighting practices such as pausing, getting perspective, and silent prayer to navigate chaos and uncertainty effectively.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 242, Life and Leadership in the Fog:"The world is moving fast. Change is speeding up and human brains haven't necessarily changed in order to be able to cope with all that's happening."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders need to acknowledge feeling overwhelmed when confronting rapid change.Practicing adaptive leadership requires slowing down and reflecting rather than reacting impulsively.Effective leaders train themselves to pause and assess before taking action during crises.Pausing to pray or gain perspective can help leaders manage chaotic situations more effectively.Leaders should ask if immediate decisions are necessary to avoid defaulting to outdated practices.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!AI, social media, and other technologies are transforming community, worship, and leadership. To stay effective, ministry leaders must understand these shifts—but also learn from the past. How do today's technologies compare to those of previous eras? This perspective can help us navigate the future.In this episode, I'm joined by Rex Miller, author of The Millennium Matrix. A futurist and expert in leading through change, Rex will share insights on how cultural and technological shifts impact ministry and how we can adapt.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Rex Miller explores the impact of communication changes on Christianity over the centuries.The Millennium Matrix analyzes shifts in communication and their effects on church culture.Rex Miller describes the transformation from an oral culture to print culture through technological advancements like the Gutenberg printing press.The broadcast era introduced personality-driven leadership and large-scale praise and worship experiences in churches.Rex Miller explains the transition from analog to digital technology and its wider implications.Digital culture fosters interactive, networked communication that reshapes organizational and cultural dynamics.In the social mobile era, personalized and real-time interactions dominate communication patterns.Rex Miller predicts that AI will enhance personalization and autonomy in community formation.The shift from community-centric oral culture to individualistic broadcast culture reflects changes in authority structures.Markus Watson delves into how shifting cultural frameworks affect pastoral leadership and church practices.Rex Miller sees potential in decentralized, grassroots approaches to modern church gatherings.The opportunities for direct community involvement and personalized content create new forms of ministry.Rex Miller highlights how technological changes continuously reshape leadership and organizational strategies.Church leaders must transition from a certainty mindset to one of curiosity to adapt effectively to cultural changes.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Rex Miller:Rexmiller.comLinked InMind ShiftGenius SparkBooks mentioned:The Millenium Matrix, by Rex MillerNeuromancer, by William GibsonMovies mentioned:Jesus RevolutionPleasantvilleRelated episodes:118. Forecasting and Innovation, with Tom Sine and Dwight Friesen147. Is Innovation Inherently Good? with Andrew Root155: Leadership and Looking to the Future, with Tom SineClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Based on their experiences as pastors, Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the delicate balance between seeking consensus through voting and the necessity of leading with focus and clarity. They delve into the unique challenges and responsibilities that come with adaptive leadership, emphasizing the importance of mission-driven decisions.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Uli Chi in Ep. 240. Leading with Wisdom from Above, with Uli Chi:“There are times when leaders lead by providing focus and clarity, rather than simply taking a vote on everything.”THIS EPISODES HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders guide by offering focus and clarity, not just by voting on every decision.Decisive leadership is necessary in complex situations.Effective pastors highlight the mission and encourage their boards to make decisions accordingly.True leadership sometimes requires addressing difficult truths instead of seeking unanimous consensus.Providing focus and clarity often involves asking the right questions to guide the team's decision-making process.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Burnout. An all too familiar experience for most of us.  It's more than just feeling tired or overworked. It's that crushing sense of futility when your passion for ministry runs out, and it leaves you wondering if you can even continue the work you were once so excited about.Jonathan Hoover, the author of Stress Fracture, Your Ultimate Guide to Beating Burnout, shares valuable insights from his experience and research, including practical strategies for managing stress, the importance of self-care, and maintaining emotional and spiritual health in leadership. THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jonathan Hoover shares the significant stress his father faced while pastoring their church.Jonathan Hoover explains how his father experienced severe emotional and physical symptoms of burnout.Markus Watson asks about the role of spirituality in addressing burnout.Jonathan Hoover highlights how the biblical story of Elijah offers insights into addressing burnout through rest and care.The world tempts people to believe they are infinite, leading to stress and burnout.Jonathan Hoover talks about 'super rats' and the dangers of endless adaptation to stress.Creating margin in life by setting limits can help prevent burnout.Monitoring multiple aspects of life, such as physical and emotional health, can help manage burnout.Jonathan Hoover introduces the concept of emotional exhaustion and how it impacts emotional regulation.Emotional intelligence decreases as emotional exhaustion increases.Burnout leads to a loss of passion and a fatalistic outlook on success.Minimizing distractions and increasing self-awareness are crucial in preventing burnout.To prevent burnout, people need to realize their own limits and adjust their workloads.Jonathan Hoover explains that emotional awareness is necessary for making lifestyle adjustments.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jonathan Hoover:Website – drjonathanhoover.comChurch website - Newspring.orgBooks mentioned:Stress Fracture, by Jonathan HooverLeadership on the Line, by Ronald Heifetz and Marty LinskyRelated episodes:136. Healthy Attachment and Spiritual Leadership, with Todd Hall175. From Burnout to Resilience, with Jason Young179. The Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson explore the essential question: "What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation?" They discuss the importance of leaders acknowledging their own needs and the dangers of seeking fulfillment from their congregations instead of God. Learn how aligning personal needs with God's guidance can help leaders bring true abundance to their communities.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Alan Fadling in Ep 238, Lead with Less Anxiety:"What thirsts of my soul am I bringing to my congregation in hopes they'll meet me there rather than learning to take the thirsts of my soul to God so that God could meet me in those places? And then I could bring abundance to the community of people entrusted to me.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Leaders must acknowledge their needs to avoid seeking affirmation from their congregations improperly.Effective leaders should bring their soul's needs to God rather than their congregations.Leaders face the temptation of people-pleasing, which can derail their adherence to God's mission.Being transparent about personal needs helps leaders avoid subconscious behaviors that could hinder mission-focused leadership.Fulfilling personal needs through appropriate relationships prevents dependence on congregational approval.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!This episode tackles the topic of being "othered" by those in church leadership, an important conversation for anyone in ministry leadership who wants to understand how to create an environment of embrace, of love, of belonging—and of being a healthy team.Jenai Auman, the author of Othered, discusses her personal experiences of being othered by church leaders, the impact it had on her, and how leaders can cultivate communities marked by shalom and hesed.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Jenai Auman shares her struggles with toxic issues and resistance at a church where she was on staff.Advocacy for personal boundaries led to Jenai being labeled as the problem and asked to leave the church.Individuals often remain in unhealthy environments due to a shallow understanding of love and belonging, influenced by past trauma.Jenai Auman identifies with domestic violence survivors in her determination to fix the system from within.Through her painful experience, Jenai Auman gained transformative wisdom and spiritual growth.Emphasizing the importance of healing, Jenai Auman aims to avoid bitterness and repeating the harm done to her.The hesed of God demonstrates loving kindness and compassion, aiming for wholeness in a fractured world.The zero-sum game misconception causes competition for comfort and peace, but God's shalom advocates for abundance.By adopting an open-handed posture towards others, we mirror God's nature, fostering inclusivity and belonging.Jenai Auman advises those feeling othered to recognize their inherent belovedness without seeking external validation.Church leaders should focus on self-reflection and compassion, avoiding defensive othering.Jenai Auman discusses the concept of shalom as a state of peace involving love, wisdom, and understanding personal stories.Naming experiences of othering is crucial for healing, enabling reconciliation and peace.Jenai Auman reflects on how her experiences with othering have shaped her understanding of mutuality and divine love.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Jenai Auman:WebsiteSubstackEmailBooks mentioned:Othered, by Jenai AumanRelated episodes:82: Narcissism and Spiritual Leadership, with Chuck DeGroat92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer163. You Can't Be Found if You're Never Lost, with Steve CarterClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson reflect on how fear influences our congregations and the importance of addressing it directly. They discuss the role of technical expertise in building trust and how leaders can compassionately accompany people through their fears, especially in times of change and perceived loss. Tod shares strategies for normalizing fear, creating communities of empathy, and tackling resistance by engaging with those who are most fearful.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from David Quel in Ep 236, Supporting Families with Autism in Your Church:“People have a tendency to be fearful of what they don't understand and what they don't know.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the importance of accompanying people through their fears in leadership.Leaders need to acknowledge and normalize fear to help people navigate their anxieties.Churches should invite experts to build technical competence and trust.Addressing resistance directly helps calm fears and fosters gradual progress.Creating a community of empathy ensures that no one faces loss or fear alone.Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In this episode, we're taking a deep-dive into the complex and, at times, nerve-wracking experience of deconstruction. Leaders often worry about its impact on their roles, their authority, and on the harmony or unity of their church communities. But what if deconstruction is less about tearing down faith and more about stripping away what's non-essential, centering instead on Jesus?In this epidsode, Scot McKnight, author of Invisible Jesus, sheds light on how deconstruction can be a path to a more Christ-focused faith, emphasizing the importance of creating supportive spaces for exploring and asking questions. This conversation is crucial for ministry leaders navigating their own or their congregants' journeys of faith reformation.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson addresses the nervousness leaders feel about deconstruction and its potential impacts on their beliefs.Scot McKnight highlights that leaders fear deconstruction because it threatens their job security, authority, and influence.People undergoing deconstruction can disrupt church communities, creating anxiety about church teachings.Markus Watson emphasizes the need for leaders to find safe spaces outside their church community for discussing deconstruction.Scot McKnight suggests that churches should support and provide safe exploration spaces instead of trying to control questioning individuals.Pastors face pressure to have all the answers, and questioning can trigger their insecurities about their role and authority.Markus Watson discusses how churches need to shift their culture to become open to questioning and changes.Scot McKnight reflects on his book "Invisible Jesus," addressing how deconstruction is not about abandoning faith but refocusing on Christ by removing non-essential elements.A study cited by Scot McKnight shows that 86% of people who undergo deconstruction remain in the church, although they may change congregations.Deconstruction resembles a personal Protestant Reformation where individuals reassess and personalize their faith journey.Scot McKnight draws parallels between deconstruction and historical movements aimed at shedding unnecessary church practices or beliefs, focusing on continual reform.Scot McKnight states that Jesus acted as a deconstructor, challenging the law within Judaism similar to the prophets.The church's role should involve listening to deconstructors rather than fearing or dismissing them, promoting an adaptive leadership approach.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Scot McKnight:SubstackBooks mentioned:Invisible Jesus, by Scot McKnight and Tommy PhillipsA Church Called Tov, by Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerRevelation for the Rest of Us, by Scot McKnight and Cody MatchettRelated episodes:171. Leading Your Ministry as a Dissident Disciple, with Scot McKnight98. Deconstruction and Reconstruction, with A.J. Swoboda92. Against a Culture of Abuse, with Scot McKnight and Laura BarringerClick HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson engage in a meaningful conversation about the delicate balance of honoring the "inherited church" while experimenting on the edges to drive adaptive change. Drawing from a quote by Shannon Kiser, who is deeply involved in adaptive leadership and fresh expressions of church, Tod explains how churches can innovate without discarding valuable traditions.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Shannon Kiser in Ep 177, Exploring New Forms of Church:“We don't have to give up what we love and cherish about the inherited church to also experiment on the edges.”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Church leaders honor the inherited church by experimenting on the edges without abandoning tradition.Adaptive leadership brings life to faith communities by evolving core practices to fit changing environments.Teams conduct modest experiments on the fringes to introduce effective innovations into the church.Effective change requires balancing respect for the past with openness to new approaches.Congregations thrive by integrating new discoveries that cater to both historical and present needs.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!In this special Christmas Eve episode of Spiritual Life and Leadership, Markus Watson takes a moment to share some heartfelt encouragement for those feeling the weight of ministry's demands. Reflecting on both personal and professional burdens, Markus reminds us of the importance of leaning on Jesus to find true rest and relief. By exploring the story of the shepherds, magi, and even King Herod, Markus illustrates how Jesus invites each of us to let go of our exhaustion and allow Him to help carry our burdens.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Pastors face a lot of pressure in preparing sermons, providing pastoral care, leading meetings, and handling administrative duties.The constant demand for excellence in ministry, even during times of societal change, amplifies stress and feelings of responsibility.Markus Watson emphasizes the added strain of personal burdens, describing his own experience caring for aging parents.Life's cumulative burdens, both personal and professional, contribute to a persistent feeling of exhaustion.Despite exhaustion, love and care for congregants and loved ones remain a priority.The host draws an analogy between the exhaustion of ministry workers and the biblical figures present at Jesus' birth.Shepherds, magi, and the people of Israel felt weary from their own burdens.Markus Watson points out that King Herod also experienced weariness, though he rejected the invitation of Jesus' birth.Jesus' words in Matthew 11 are an invitation for rest and relief.Markus Watson concludes by encouraging listeners to allow Jesus to help carry their personal and ministry burdens, reassuring them that they are not alone.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Related episodes:117. Leading with Courage and Integrity in Times of Discontinuous Change206. The Healing Power of Pilgrimage, with Jon Huckins244. Finding Strength in Desperation, with Mandy SmithDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the concept of the kingdom of God as a way of life, rather than a distant place. Inspired by a powerful quote from Yolanda Solomon, they discuss the profound implications this understanding has for ministry leadership and personal discipleship. Discover how embracing God's will in the present moment can transform your leadership and community, and what it means to live out the reality of God's reign right here, right now.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Yolanda Solomon in Ep 232, Learning from Jesus:"The kingdom that Jesus proclaims and the kingdom that Jesus embodies is not a place. It's a way of life."Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!What if prayer wasn't just a box to check off your to-do list, but a lifeline deeply integrated into every moment of your life and your leadership? Imagine navigating every challenge, every conflict, and every transition with an ongoing sense that God is with you.Jeff Hoffmeyer is Vice President for Advancement and Resident Theologian for the Denver Institute for Faith and Work, and a teacher in the Doctor of Ministry program at Fuller Theological Seminary. In this episode, Jeff shares his insights on the significance of prayer in leadership, how to keep prayer practices fresh and meaningful, and how to integrate the Bible into your prayer life, turning it into a rich resource for your ministry.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Markus Watson introduces the concept of "praying without ceasing," questioning its feasibility and practical application.Jeff Hoffmeyer suggests that "praying without ceasing" involves including God in every moment of daily life.Prayer can be incorporated into transitions between tasks, making it a continuous practice.Markus Watson compares prayer to a comfortable silence in relationships, emphasizing a connection without constant conversation.Jeff Hoffmeyer highlights that prayer involves more than words, incorporating awareness and presence with God.The Bible serves as a resource for ministry and prayer, guiding conversations with God and integrating scripture into prayers.Markus Watson shares his experience with Lectio Divina, finding it more meaningful than quick Bible readings.Jeff Hoffmeyer underscores the importance of prayer for leadership, even if it doesn't feel mastered.Maintaining a connection with God through prayer helps leaders ground their identity in Christ amid challenges.Jeff Hoffmeyer discusses the role of attention in leadership, advocating for understanding personal anxiety and others' motivations.Jeff Hoffmeyer emphasizes the need to attend to the world's needs, whether as church leaders, business leaders, or parents.Markus Watson appreciates the contemplative nature of Hoffmeyer's podcast, noting its thoughtful, longer conversations.Jeff Hoffmeyer describes prayer as a "resource," helping leaders connect with the divine and make their work meaningful.Prayer should be an integral part of everyday life, helping individuals notice the divine in daily routines.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Teach Us to Pray PodcastDenver Institute for Faith and WorkFuller Theological Seminary Doctor of MinistryDe Pree Center for LeadershipChurch Leadership InstituteRelated Episodes:44. Spiritual Formation and Lectio Divina, with Eric Nevins112. The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark Scandrette216. Overcoming ‘Puny' Spirituality, with Warren Brown and Brad StrawnDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger discuss the essential role of pastors and spiritual leaders in "standing in the gap," inspired by a profound quote from Amy Peeler. They explore how leaders can support their communities by being present in times of crisis, offering intercessory prayer, and providing emotional and spiritual accompaniment. Through personal stories and leadership insights, they highlight the importance of not letting others face challenges alone and the powerful impact of embodying a pastoral presence during tough decisions and anxious moments.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Amy Peeler in Ep 224, Leadership Through the Lens of Hebrews:"As a priest, as a pastor, we are called to stand in the gap for people. Right? That could be as simple as, we have the time and the resources to study God's word during the week so that, when the congregation comes in, we can share the fruit of that time that we've invested."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders stand in the gap for their congregations, embodying both authority and empathy.Pastors enrich their congregations by dedicating time to study God's word, offering spiritual insights in return.Effective leaders accompany their team through anxious and challenging times, providing support and reassurance.Spiritual leadership involves being present with people, especially in moments of crisis and decision-making.Leaders foster a sense of community by ensuring no one feels alone in their burdens and responsibilities.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Is leadership about enduring endless challenges without ever, y'know, faltering? Or is it about recognizing when to slow down, step back, acknowledge our weaknesses and reconnect with the God who calls us?In this episode, Mandy Smith, author of Confessions of an Amateur Saint, talks about developing our capacity when ministry gets hard, the essential role of rest, and how we can find strength even in times of desperation.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Mandy Smith underscores the necessity of recognizing burnout early and taking intentional breaks for spiritual reflection.Mandy Smith reveals her practice of observing a Monday Sabbath, emphasizing the importance of uninterrupted rest in remembering spiritual purposes.Challenges in ministry can expand one's capacities if approached with discernment.Mandy Smith emphasizes the importance of identifying the "true self" versus the "false self" in leadership roles.The conversation touches on navigating unknowns in ministry, where traditional methods may not be effective anymore.Mandy Smith discusses her routine of daily prayer for guidance, especially during challenging times in ministry.Prayer serves as a crucial aspect of leadership, connecting leaders to God's guidance and renewal.Markus Watson refers to the insights from Mandy's book, The Vulnerable Pastor, underscoring the value of vulnerability in leadership.Mandy Smith talks about the urgency felt due to declining church attendance, stressing a deeper reliance on prayer.Personal and communal desperation in the church can lead to spiritual growth and greater reliance on God.Mandy Smith explores the concept of "confession" as turning towards God, involving acknowledgment of thoughts and reaffirmation of faith.Shifting from secular professionalism to Christian leadership reliance on God, Mandy Smith critiques the application of secular standards within church contexts.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Mandy Smith:www.thewayistheway.orgInstagram - @mandysmithhopesThe Eugene Peterson Center for Christian ImaginationBooks mentioned:Confessions of an Amateur Saint, by Mandy SmithThe Vulnerable Pastor, by Mandy SmithRelated episodes:36. The Vulnerable Pastor, with Mandy Smith107. Childlike Faith, Adultlike Leadership, with Mandy Smith194. Saudade, Leadership, and Nurturing the Inner Life, with Jeff CrosbyDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson and Tod Bolsinger engage in an enlightening conversation exploring a profound quote by Efrem Smith on the evolving narrative of church communities. They discuss the critical role of the emerging generation in not just being part of the church's story, but actively shaping its future. The episode explores the importance of diverse perspectives, adaptive leadership, and the humility required to foster a truly inclusive and vibrant faith community.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Efrem Smith in Ep 222, Building a Multi-Inlusive Church:“As the story of your church unfolds, is it obvious that the emerging generation is not only part of the story, but part of shaping the story that will be told?”THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders engage future generations by including their voices at the decision-making table.Tod Bolsinger emphasizes the necessity for leaders to adopt a humble approach and be open to learning.Markus Watson stresses the importance of diverse perspectives for a fuller understanding of God's calling.Churches increase vitality by valuing spiritual maturity over age when selecting leaders.Tod Bolsinger encourages leaders to focus on creating processes that foster deeper understanding and growth.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!We talk a lot about leading through uncertainty on this podcast.  But in this episode, the emphasis will be on navigating uncertainty in our own lives.  In this conversation, Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa Slayton, co-authors of Life in Flux, discuss the importance of "uncommon postures" when navigating the fog in life, building personal adaptive capacity, and the need to pause and listen in the midst of uncertainty.THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Lisa Slayton challenges default behaviors and encourages developing uncommon postures to better support oneself.Michaela O'Donnell emphasizes the need to embrace change rather than avoid it, recognizing that old methods won't work for future challenges.Slayton identifies personal awakening catalysts as recognizing potential possibilities or facing pain and disruptions.Adaptive work involves recognizing that past methods won't suffice for future challenges, according to Michaela O'Donnell.The metaphor of a ship in the fog illustrates the need for intentional stillness in uncertain times.Slayton describes how cutting the engine in a fog-bound boat is a counterintuitive but necessary action to regain direction.Markus Watson reflects on personal experiences with uncertainty, realizing challenges can be embraced even when they are "unfigureoutable."Slayton shares an experience with a church team and stresses the importance of exploration and adaptation.Navigating ambiguity involves recognizing multiple paths forward, not just one clear solution, notes Michaela O'Donnell.Leadership should shift from problem-solving to curiosity, embracing uncertainty and adaptive learning.Markus Watson discusses the clarity of identity in understanding personal strengths and aligning roles accordingly.The Enneagram aids in understanding personal and leadership styles amidst change, recognizing strengths and limits.Lisa Slayton emphasizes the challenges pastors face due to excessive expectations and the need for managing these effectively.RELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:Church Leadership InstituteDe Pree Center for LeadershipTamim PartnersLifeinFlux.coFlourish San DiegoBooks mentioned:Life in Flux, by Michaela O'Donnell and Lisa SlaytonRelated Episodes:Episode 114: Meaningful Work, with Michaela O'DonnellEpisode 48: Integrity and Coherence in Leadership, with Lisa SlaytonDid you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!

Send me a text! I'd love to know what you're thinking!Markus Watson chats with Tod Bolsinger about a profound quote from Gayle Beebe, President of Westmont College. They explore the significance of staying emotionally present with your organization, its people, and its mission, especially during crises. The conversation highlights the balance between gaining perspective ('balcony' view) and staying connected (‘dance floor' engagement), essential for fostering trust and effective leadership. Perfect for those navigating the complexities of ministry leadership.Tod Bolsinger and Markus Watson discuss this quote from Gayle Beebe in Ep 220, Leading Through Tragedy, Adversity, and Crisis:"You have to stay emotionally present to the organization, to the people in the organization, to the mission of the organization so that you can make adjustments that actually allow you to prevail."THIS EPISODE'S HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE:Ministry leaders must stay emotionally present to effectively lead organizations through crises.Gayle Beebe emphasizes the importance of connecting with the mission and people of the organization.Leaders need to balance the perspectives of the balcony (overall strategy) and the dance floor (emotional connection).Building trust through emotional attunement accelerates change within an organization.Leaders must acknowledge and manage their own emotions to make mission-focused decisions.Did you know Spiritual Life and Leadership has been named the #1 Spiritual Leadership Podcast by the Feedspot Podcasters Database? Check it out HERE!