Podcasts about brent you

Nick talks about a difficult RSI intubation and his struggle to overcome the feeling that he didn't do his bestWe talk about how intubation success was such a critical point as a paramedic that everyone would have judged you on in the pastWe talk about the direct laryngoscopy vs the new video techniquesAdvice for the newbies:  Brent: You're going to struggle with burnout. You need to recognize it early. Prepare for that possibility. Nick: The things that affect you are different for everyone. Certain things you think may not affect you will actually become a problem for you later. You can't choose the things that you will struggle with. Always treat the patient well and don't blame them for the problem they are having. It is not all about you. Treat people with respect and give them options. Let them save face.Mark: Recognize that your happiness is up to you. Don't expect the company or organization to give you your happiness or your wellbeing. If you see yourself getting less happy, you don't owe the organization anything. You make the decisions that affect your life. We can't blame the environment we choose. Make a change if you need to.The mountain will always be the mountain. We have better gear than we did before but that doesn't make the challenge itself that much easier. EMS is tough field and that will always be the caseKnowing when to step away is also importantNick's metaphor: Event horizons are the edge of a black hole. If you were in space and you passed into an event horizon you probably wouldn't even notice.  But from the outside, you would just appear to disappear. Event horizons appear in our careers as well. You may not really understand you are at that point of terminal burnout but looking back you might be able to pinpoint that point of no return that you crossed.Where is the event horizon on a call? That point of no return where the outcome is assured.Support the showIf you want to support the show, follow the links below for some great health and fitness products.My favorite protein:https://1stphorm.com/products/phormula-1/?a_aid=PracticalEMS My favorite 1ST Phorm Energy Drinks: https://1stphorm.com/products/1st-phorm-energy/?a_aid=PracticalEMS My favorite creatine supplement https://1stphorm.com/products/micronized-creatine-monohydrate/?a_aid=PracticalEMS My favorite pre-workout supplementhttps://1stphorm.com/products/project-1/?a_aid=PracticalEMS If you want to work on your nutrition, increase your energy, improve your physical and mental health, I highly recommend 1st Phorm. Check them out here so they know I sent you. 1st Phorm | The Foundation of High Performance Nutrition Everything you hear today from myself and my guests is opinion only and doesn't represent any organizations or companies that any of us are affiliated with. The stories you hear have been modified to protect patient privacy and any resemblance to real individuals is coincidental. This is for ed...

Tina Herzik, the Vice President of Operations for Service Source, and Brent McNeal, the Director of the Florida Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, join forces with Carol Pankow in the Manager Minute studio to chat about creative staffing solutions in the great State of Florida. Tina and Brent discuss how the Florida General agency and Service Source are partnering to meet staffing needs with a unique model. With a business relationship that spans over 22 years, the duo shares how their two organizations continue to serve as front runners of innovative staffing practices and transformational leadership.   Listen Here   Full Transcript {Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the manager minute. Joining me in the studio today is Tina Herzik, Service Source vice president of operations for the VR program in Florida, and Brent McNeal, director of the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation. Florida. General, I am so happy to have you both with me in the studio today. So, Brent, how are things going in Florida?   Brent: Things are going well, Carol. Thank you. We're definitely happy to see the end of the hurricane season here in Florida and looking forward to going through the homestretch here into the holiday break.   Carol: Yeah, I've seen you've had a lot of weather. We had our own 13 inches of snow on Monday, so at least you don't have that. Holy cow. So, Tina, how about you?   Tina: Same thing. Just getting over trying to lose that word pandemic and getting back to normalcy. But I live in Vero Beach, so happy that last hurricane didn't take us down. But we're standing.   Carol: Strong. Yeah, absolutely. Know all the Florida folks. I really you know, our hearts go out to y'all with everything that happened in that Fort Myers area. That is something else. I don't know how you deal with that all the time. That kind of those terrific weather conditions that can really just devastate a whole area. So I know you're rebuilding and people are working strong. So, Brent, it was really fun meeting you live and in person at the CC VR Leadership Forum before the conference began, and we all heard a pretty sobering message about the state of the national VR program. And we've got to spend the money. Each agency is facing different challenges, but the factor that binds us all together has to do with finding ways to expend funds. So the VR program, much like the rest of business across the country, is in the midst of a staffing crisis and trying to seek solutions to meet customer needs. Now, I know Florida General has a model that's been in place for over 20 years as a result of a legislative change. Now, this model is not really conventional, and I think you're the only people in the country doing something quite like this. But you have worked out all the kinks and have really learned so many lessons. So we thought others could benefit from the work that you all have done. And there's really a unique partnership that really is withstanding the test of time. So let's dig in. So, Brent, why don't you tell us a little about yourself, your background, how you came to VR and a little bit about Florida General?   Brent: Sure. First of all, I'm happy to be here. I echo the statements that you've made, we certainly are in the same boat as other programs around the country. And so this is a way that folks could explore to spend some of those funds and to better provide services to their customers. So my background, I came to VR first in 2009. It was my first job out of law school, actually, and did not know anything about VR or what it was, but quickly became so interested and invested because of the good work that I saw that the division was doing and so really enjoyed getting to learn the program. I also represented our Florida Division of Blind Services, so got to do a lot of interesting work and Randolph Shepherd and in other areas with that unit. So that is how I came to VR. I worked with VR in a legal capacity for around eight years and then took this director's position back in February. So coming up on one year here shortly in terms of Florida General, we're housed within the Florida Department of Education, headquartered in beautiful Tallahassee, Florida. The states broken up into seven geographical areas, and each of those has an area director. Now, we haven't always been here in the Department of Education, and we'll talk a little bit about some of the history and where the division was previously. But yeah, we've been with the Department of Education for a number of years now and are a big component of Florida DOH.   Carol: So your background really positions you nicely for this job because you know, the regs really probably pretty inside and out as being the attorney for the agency for so long.   Brent: You know that part is certainly helpful and I tap into it regularly. I have to resist the urge to just be the lawyer. And we have a very capable and wonderful deputy general counsel that leads our VR legal team. So I defer to Nicole Saunders now on legal matters, but it is nice to have that background as well as those relationships that I was able to build as the attorney, including with folks like Tina.   Carol: Absolutely. So how many people do you serve and how many staff does Florida General have?   Brent: For the past several years, it has varied between around 45000 to 50000 individuals receiving services within a state fiscal year. We have 884 full time equivalent staff that are employees of the division of the state of Florida.   Carol: Wow. That is huge. Are you in the top five programs in the country or something? As far as size, I think.   Brent: I think we must be I know that we're one of the largest. And, you know, Florida is such a diverse state, too. We talk about from the tip of the panhandle, which is where I grew up over in Escambia and Santa Rosa Counties, all the way down to the Florida Keys. And, you know, those two ends of the state could not be more different in terms of, well, just geography, but also all of the economics, you name it, just really diverse and a lot of different challenges throughout the state for such a big state as Florida.   Carol: Yeah, tough for you to just like we're going to drive to all the offices today. That can't happen. So the model I alluded to, what is this model that Florida general is working under to meet your staffing needs?   Brent: For over 20 years now, Florida VR has been working with Service Source in a successful public private partnership, and that's really added service capacity in our state. And so I'm looking forward to telling everyone more about that today.   Carol: Very cool. So, Tina, I didn't mean to leave you out.. Why don't you tell our listeners about yourself and your background and how you kind of fit into this picture?   Tina: Oh, thank you, Carol, And thanks for inviting us here today. I have been in Florida most of my life here. As I said, I live in Vero Beach. I did live where you are from in Minnesota for five years. So I've enjoyed the Minnesota life as well. I started my career out as a teacher, so working with the youth has always been very close to my heart. I obtained my master's degree while working under this contract over the years and rehabilitation counseling, I have my CRC, my Certified Rehabilitation Counseling license. I was the second employee hired under this original contract with this partnership in 2001 as a vocational rehabilitation counselor. Believe it or not, I took this job under a newspaper advertisement. Does anybody know what that is anymore? So the director that hired me to start up was the startup director for the privatization project, Steve Palumbo. Steve had worked with the state of Florida VR system for many years. He started this privatization. He was a great mentor to me. I was very green, just like Brent talks about coming in. I didn't know that much at all about what I was getting myself into. I had no idea that 20 years later I'd be as excited as I am about what we do. And as he mentored me over the years, I started out as a VRC, so I was a vocational rehabilitation counselor for a few years and then I became a unit supervisor for one of our largest units, which was one of the first units in this partnership on the Treasure Coast. It serves four different counties, and I did that for about 11 years. And then when Steve retired in 2017, I became the director for the program and have held that position ever since. I've worked with Service Source for over 20 years and I've been very excited to be part of what I always say to people, kind of the trailblazer of this type of model. And it's been great because, as Brent said, we also work together very closely when he was the attorney for VR. So it's just been a great partnership.   Carol: So Brent, what happened back in the 1999 legislative session that led to your model for meeting staffing needs?   Brent: Well, I'll give the caveat that obviously I wasn't around at this time, but I've done some research and know anecdotally that there were some similar circumstances to what we're facing now. There are very high caseloads. We had a number of vacancies that were presenting challenges and consequently we had some underserved areas in Florida where folks were having a hard time receiving VR services. In response to that problem, the Florida legislature passed Senate Bill 230 and which directed VR and I'll quote, to enter into local public private partnerships to the extent that it is beneficial to increasing employment outcomes for persons with disabilities and ensuring their full involvement in the comprehensive workforce investment system. So at that time, Florida VR was broken into 24 regions. The division was housed in another state agency at that time and had not made the move to the Department of Education. So there were 24 regions in stark contrast to our seven areas now, and initially contracts were only awarded for three of those 24 regions. Service Source was awarded two of the three contracts that were initially awarded after procurement was conducted in 2000. And just a little bit more about Senate Bill 230. It did include a section on the legislative intent, which I thought might be interesting to listeners, and it basically states the legislature finds that individuals with disabilities experience the highest unemployment rate of any group in society as high as 75%, and that unemployment and poverty go hand in hand. The legislature also finds that persons who complete the vocational rehabilitation program are twice as likely to obtain and maintain employment, and the use of private providers is the readiest way to add service capacity for this population. I'll stop there.   Carol: That's really interesting. You know, we're still facing that issue today with people with disabilities being one of the largest groups that have issues with unemployment and living in poverty. And so the needle has not changed a ton, but you were able to increase capacity. So let me just clear this up. Did the legislature at the same time, did they like freeze your FTEs or you actually lost some FTEs, but you could then use this source to be able to make up the difference?   Brent: I don't know that there was a simultaneous move with respect to FTEs. I know that over the years that has occurred where they have been frozen or we have been permission to expand, but I don't know if that was occurring simultaneous to this effort in 1999. And Tina may be able to speak a little bit more about that because obviously there was some trepidation on the part of division employees to this fairly significant change.   Carol: Well, absolutely. They're thinking we're being eliminated. You're taking our jobs away. So, Tina, why don't we go to you? Because you were around back in 1999. What's your perspective on what happened back then?   Tina: Yeah, absolutely. I actually remember it like it was yesterday. As I said, when I came into the position, I remember, you know, you start your first day on the job with your little box of all your desk items and you're walking in. And state workers at the time, field staff looked very concerned. There was a lot of concern and it wasn't the welcoming that you might have expected on your first day of your new job, because I didn't know that at the time and didn't understand it. But as time went on, I understood that the communication wasn't very clear on why we were there and what we were doing there. But we were brought in. We were brought in to work alongside state employees. So at the time we were working in the same offices right next door and taking over some of the caseloads. And, you know, everybody's very particular about giving up their caseloads. But what I believe happened at that time is VRC caseloads, the vocational rehabilitation counselors were dealing with over 300 plus cases in certain units. There were counties that, as we were talking about, were completely underserved. As I said, I started out here on the Treasure Coast. There are four counties on the Treasure Coast, very large school districts that needed to be served. And we are about an hour and a half driving distance from the actual area office for the state. So this worked very well and it took a little bit of time. But when the employees started to feel the relief and some of the challenges they were having and they realized we weren't there to take their jobs, I feel like over time it just made things a lot easier when they saw the positive responses and that they still had their jobs and they were able to leave as they retired and there was no difference. In that particular office, those people, those state workers left over time through retirement. And then it became that the Treasure Coast was mainly the private provider inside the state offices. So definitely, as Brent said, it was a very unusual time and communication wasn't very forthright. Nobody really knew why. We knew we had jobs. We were coming in to help, but nobody understood it. But I believe over time those challenges kind of went away and the fear went away when we were helping and it was making a difference. And so that made a big difference. It got better.   Carol: So I'm sure the feds probably wanted to say one or two things about this arrangement. So what do either of you think, Brent, I'll go to you first from a state perspective, if you are able to answer this, what did you guys do to help alleviate federal concern about this arrangement? Because I keep thinking non delegables, you know, in my head.   Brent: Sure. Well, that's the big one. And so that is addressed contractually. And I think it's certainly explicit and clear in our current contractual arrangements, which we'll get into. But I would imagine that that had to be addressed right out of the gate because it would be the obvious challenge or something that we would have to deal with. And I think we have done so well. But I think to go back to the federal response, I do understand that RSA had some pretty significant concerns initially, and I speculate that that led to the decision to only enter the three small contracts initially rather than to try to do the whole state. And I understand they were only one year contracts with a possible renewal for two years. So a limited term and very limited geographically to start out. And I think that probably helped to address some of the concerns.   Carol: So, Tina, do you have any thoughts back then about the federal concern because you were there, you probably heard a little bit about that.   Tina: Sure. Basically what we found or what I saw was that RSA contracted agencies to come in and do quality assurance. We had many, many audits and quality assurance reviews regularly. And what I feel probably alleviated those concerns over time because I was part of them, my cases were pulled for audits and then when I became the supervisor, we were still doing many, many quality assurance desktop audits. And basically once we would get through these audits and they were positive and they could see that we were following processes, we were doing the same work that the state was doing, we were following everything that was laid out in the contract. The audits became less, the quality assurance coming around every few months were less and less. And I believe that just spoke to the kind of work that was happening over time. But there was definitely a lot of concern in the beginning and as Brent said. It started out with short term contracts and now we've gone into more of a three year with three year extensions. And of course, everything is still we're all being we should all be under compliance audits from time to time, but it's more regular now. It's not like it was in the past.   Carol: Gotcha. Okay. That helps clear that up. So, Brent, I know I said something about the non-delegables, so how do you address that to ensure that VR remains in control? Because I'm sure our listeners are thinking, all right, but how does that work exactly?   Brent: As I mentioned, we clearly set forth the definitions within the contract and sort of address that head on. And early on in the language of the contract, for example, in the purpose of the contract, under brief summary of the nature and purpose of the project, it states, the purpose of this contract is to perform delegable VR services to eligible persons with disabilities in Area two, Area three, Area six and seven. Essentially, we're establishing that right out of the gate we define what those terms mean within the definitions, of course, citing to the applicable regulations and laws. And then most importantly, every unit has an assigned position that is a state employee that we call a counselor analyst, and they have the final signing authority for all work in the unit. So that's really essentially how we address this the non-delegable issue. The Service Source unit supervisor reviews the work first and then it's ultimately reviewed and signed off on by the counselor analyst. And so Tina mentioned our Treasure Coast where we have two counselor analysts based just on the size of that unit and the population there. The counselor analyst reports to our area director in each area around the state and those four areas that have the private units. And so, of course, we always have to document customer choice and form choice and working with private or state staff. I think we do a good job of explaining during our intake process that the services will still be the same and that it should appear the same regardless of which selection a customer makes. As to whether they would prefer to work with our state staff or with Service Source staff.   Carol: So that speaks to the question then what steps did you take to integrate staff in the work? And Tina, I'm going to send that to you because you've been there since the very darn start of the whole thing.   Tina: Yes, we wanted this to look seamless, and in the beginning I wasn't part of those decisions, but I can see why we did this. And it worked. Basically, our Service Source staff are on the state system, so we have emails, we're included in all the state correspondence. If you were to pull up myself or Brent, we're both in the system, so are all of the staff, Our Service Source staff, we do take our Service Source trainings like you would do for any company that you work for. But then we also, our staff is part of the mandatory state trainings, including ethics and sexual harassment and all the beginning onboarding, because it's important that our staff understand when they're working inside of a state system. There might be a little bit of differences in how the state system may work to a private agency, so they're held accountable for the same things that the state employees are. The VR staff have some additions. What I had to do is we have a staff handbook for Service Source. I actually had them update the handbook over time to add some things that my staff that are working under this contract need to also abide by because they're under this contract. Our management for Service Source is part of all the bureau meetings. We sit on their task forces. It's been wonderful because over the years that's a big piece. The communication has gotten better and better. And what we found is that if we collaborated together and that we work together on strategic plans, brainstorming ideas for Florida, we work together so our management and our leadership sits with their leadership and we work as one. And really it's seamless. We don't go out into the community and say, we are Service Source, employees, we are VR. So when we're in the office, we get paid by Service Source, we work for our company. But when we are working under this contract, we are working as a VR employee.   Carol: I like that you said seamless. That was the word that popped into my mind because you're explaining this. I'm like, This seems really seamless and I'm sure that took time to get to that point.   Tina: It evolved. It evolved. But I feel like in all the years I've been here, we're at that place. We're at that place where it's the best I've ever seen it. And it's been a lot of collaboration that's brought us there, but definitely seamless at this point.   Carol: Excellent. So I know one thing that buzzes around in my mind because in Minnesota we're a unionized state, several different unions our staff fell under. So Brent, is Florida unionized?   Brent: Florida is a what's known as a Right To Work state. And that essentially means that a person can work in the state, whether they're in a union or not. They can't be compelled to join a union as a condition of keeping their job. I believe a little over half of the states are right to work states. You know, that doesn't present as much of a challenge for us here as it might in other areas.   Carol: Sure, no, thanks for clarifying that. So, Tina, I wanted to look at today how much territory does Service Source cover in Florida and how many employees are on the Service Source side of the house.   Tina: Yes. Brent alluded a little while ago to the fact that we are in four of their contracted seven areas that we covered. We are inside 16 state offices from Jacksonville to Key West we are predominantly in central part of Florida. And on the East Coast, we have 145 employees inside this contract. When we began to kind of give you how we've evolved, we started out with 45 and we only had two offices. So now I would say percentage wise, years ago, it's probably about 18% of what the state is doing. We're involved in, I would say somewhere between 18 and 20%, but we have offices mainly between Jacksonville and Key West.   Carol: Yeah, that helps to give a better picture of what that looks like. So what are some lessons that you've learned along the way? And Brent, I'm going to go to you first on that.   Brent: Sure. And, you know, Tina and I have talked about this as we prepared for this podcast. And I think we both agree that communication is really the key. And Tina alluded to that earlier, that the communication perhaps could have been better and stronger, more robust at the beginning of this process, because any time you have a significant change like this, we all know that there's going to be if there's a vacuum of information that's going to be filled and people are going to fear the worst and they're going to just come up with the sort of 'Parade of Horribles' to use an old legal term of what might go wrong. So I think it's just critically important and has been important to our relationship that we keep those lines of communication open. We need to make sure as the division that we ensure that our partners, that Service Source, receive the same messages and information that our state employees receive and really toward the greatest extent possible work to that seamlessness that we've talked about. And it's interesting that you all focused on that word because that has been sprinkled throughout. But also I think it just does go to that seamlessness that we look for where for all intents and purposes, the work we do is the same and the customer has the same quality experience no matter who their counselor is.   Carol: So how about you, Tina? Are there any other lessons learned that you want to talk about?   Tina: Yes, I totally agree with Brent. Communication has been the biggest key lesson learned over time. Change management would have been a good lesson 22 years ago. We could have used that topic right? How to help people get used to something different. But I guess something that comes to my mind, I think about many, many years ago we tried to do a staff leasing concept many years ago in one of the areas that we serve. We tried the idea of having a state supervisor, supervising Service Source staff in an underserved area, and it worked for a little bit, but I don't think it worked as well as our current model and what we're doing. So I think that was definitely a lesson learned that we should probably stick to what we're doing from the beginning here with this model, because when you're answering to or you're being supervised by somebody in your own company, it still was all the same concept. But I think it definitely worked better when we didn't do that staff leasing. Having the contract the way it is now, but hugely about communication all across the board. It helps with employee retention, it helps with training, it helps with us all following policy and doing things the way we're supposed to do to serve the customers.   Carol: So I'm sure everybody is wondering how you both are dealing with staffing shortages. I was thinking about that. Does staff move between like the two organizations and how do you deal with that? Tina, I'm going to ask you that first.   Tina: Sure. You know, Brent and I even newly working together, we discuss this ourselves, and I've talked about this with every previous director. We definitely discourage poaching. We do not look to take each other. So that's not the whole purpose of this contract. The purpose of this contract is that we're working together. However, we don't discourage it happens very infrequently that the employees go from one side or the other. But it does happen and it happens for good reasons sometimes, you know, some people have to move to another area of Florida and Service Source doesn't have an office there inside the state. So it would naturally make sense that they would stay within our system and they would go to a state unit and vice versa. And also for any kind of possible advancement. We do not have all of the positions that the state of Florida has. We have quite a few of the positions that they have under contract. But there may be an opportunity for one of our staff on both sides to have advancement if they come. So we do want to keep all of these great passionate people inside the system. So we're not looking to do that, but we don't encourage that. But that's the biggest thing, is making sure that we're working together and as a team rather than encouraging anything like that.   Carol: So is the pay similar then?   Tina: Yes, the pay is very similar. The only thing different you have to understand is that state benefits are less expensive. If you really kind of look at the bottom line, sometimes it may appear because we have to add on a little bit of money there to cover benefits and different things that a private company would be different than a state system. But when you really look at the actuality of them, Very similar. Very similar.   Carol: Gotcha. So, Brent, how about you? How are you dealing with just the overall staffing shortages?   Brent: Well, we're certainly thankful for our partnership with Service Source to provide the services that they do and the staff that they do. But bigger picture, I'm pleased to announce that we have put forward as part of the department's legislative budget request some pretty significant raises for our what we call our frontline staff, our counseling positions, our technicians and those folks who are working with the customers. It's frankly long overdue. And we, as many agencies around the country have experienced, have definitely had challenges with staffing. So we have gotten further along in this process than we have. I understand that before I came on board last year, the division was taking a run at this and getting their proposal into the legislative budget request, but it did not happen. So that has occurred this year. We're very excited about that. We have the department's support and we're cautiously optimistic that that will make its way through the legislature and this upcoming session and that we will have a great outcome there.   Carol: Good for you. That is exciting to hear. I'm sure colleagues across the country will be interested in how you pitch that to get into the budget. That's always part of the problem. Just getting it out of the agency.   Brent: Absolutely. And I will say a lot of blood, sweat and tears and a lot of hard work with staff here who really thought deeply and for a long time about the various ways that we could go about this. Yes, I'm proud of the folks here who have helped to make that happen. And as I said, cautiously optimistic. And we've tried to be as transparent as possible with folks around the state as well to let them know what we're doing and that we are we're trying to go to bat there and we're excited about the possibility and looking forward to a good result in the spring.   Carol: Excellent. Well, do keep me posted on that. So, Tina, I'm curious, are there other states that Service Source operates in? And then what kind of services can you provide?   Tina: Yes, we are a leading nonprofit disability resource organization. We have services and prime contract operations located in more than ten states and the District of Columbia. Service Source have five regional offices share a common mission to provide exceptional services to people with disabilities through a range of valued employment training, habilitation, housing and many, many other support services. We have regional offices that are in Florida, Virginia, Delaware, Utah and North Carolina. Our mission aligns with vocational rehabilitation mission. I mean, we are committed to building more inclusive communities.   Carol: Very cool. I had heard mentioned that maybe you guys even get into like being able to provide interpreter services and things like that.   Tina: Yes. Well, from this contract, having this contract for many, many years, you know, as I said, we sat on many bureau meetings and at one point Florida was in need of having a larger interpreter services scope throughout Florida. They already had interpreter services positions throughout Florida, but they were looking for a private organization or a contract. And we had experience in our Florida regional office working with individuals with deaf and hard of hearing. So we immediately jumped in and offered those services. And through that task we have a contract now where we have an interpreter services contract that is based out of our Clearwater, which is our regional office here in Florida. And we have positions throughout the state, again, just like our contract sitting inside state offices, serving right alongside the state interpreters, the state and staff interpreters. And it's been a wonderful program over the last few years.   Carol: Very cool. Yeah, Thanks for sharing that. I know some folks have struggled with the interpreter contracts. I've just heard that as of late across the country. As with anything else, you know, where people are struggling to get staffed. So looking back on all of this and knowing what you both know now, is there anything you would change about what has happened and how it may be happened? Brent, I'll go to you first.   Brent: Well, as I look on the historical record and the documents that I've been able to find about how all this occurred, I think hindsight being 2020, probably some of those initial contracts could have been drafted in a way that might not have raised so many red flags. Now, again, that is hindsight, because this was such a new and different concept. It may have been the case that regardless of how they were drafted, there would have been concerns. But, you know, I think some lessons can be learned from that as to how those have evolved. And again, there was some movement around this time when all this was occurring where VR was sort of moved from one agency to another, and it eventually landed with the Department of Education in 2002. And I think that provided some additional stability for the division, and we've been here ever since. So I think it was probably wise to start small and scale up from there and to focus on underserved areas. Those are, I think, some lessons that were properly implemented and that that would be a good way to get something like this off the ground.   Carol: Tina, how about you? Any thoughts on that? Anything you would change?   Tina: Yeah, I totally agree with Brent. The contracts started out very differently. At one point we had five contracts for this, this one contract. We had five different serving different areas of Florida. And I understand why it happened that way. Looking back now, though, probably with the idea that you can do amendments to contracts, I think if we were to do this again, just amending contracts and having one large contract, because now we do have over the last five years, the most recent contract is one large contract working as a team approach across the state. So all of our goals and deliverables are work together as in anything that you work with and a team approach always works better. I have consistency among managers working together. Everybody has final goals that we're all working for the same mission and concept, but they're working together and they're working as a team rather than working in separate areas of Florida with different guidelines and thought processes and salaries. It wasn't as consistent years ago. So I definitely think that was something that definitely will help all of us in the future when we look at something like this. But we have to, over time, continuously work on streamlining and efficiency based changes. They're necessary and we've done that over time. And I think because we've done that, it's led to the success of the program.   Carol: Well, the lessons that you all have learned and everything that you've gone through can definitely help another state because they don't have to go through the same path. They can start off kind of right where you're at really with learning from you all. So do you have any parting words of wisdom? If somebody is interested in this type of model? How about you, Brent?   Brent: Sure. I will just continue to say how well it's worked for Florida and how much we value the partnership. And I echo the sentiment that the state should all learn from one another and from one another's mistakes and challenges. And that's one of the great things about our collegial body that we share around the country with our colleague. You know, we're certainly willing to talk to folks to share documents, to let them know about how this is historically evolved. And I guess I would just say that it's one of the great benefits is that we're able to learn from one another and to complement each other. A private entity is able to be a little bit more nimble in many ways than a state agency that has layers of bureaucracy and sort of red tape. That's certainly a benefit that can occur with this kind of arrangement. It's something that we would certainly welcome any questions from other folks as to how they might do something like this in their state.   Carol: Excellent. So, Tina, how about you? Any parting words of wisdom?   Tina: You know, I would say just like Brent, it's a great partnership. We've had almost 22 years of experience working to support the state of Florida and their mission that has become our mission. It works successfully because we've cultivated an excellent working relationship with each other. The natural cooperation with our state counterparts has been an influential force in our success. Many years ago, one of the previous directors called it We now are VR one. We're no longer Service Source in State VR, we're VR one. I look to what we've just been talking about over the last year in the CSAVR, especially in the Spring Virtual Conference about transformational change and transformational leadership. You know, I wanted to raise my hand and go, that's like what we did 22 years ago. We were the transformational change that nobody really thought of back then. And so these are the types of ideas I hope that during my career now, I can see us replicate this relationship in other states so we can assist state VR agencies that are in need to help them achieve their goals and better serve their customers.   Carol: Very cool. I love that VR one. That's awesome. So I know you both had mentioned if somebody out there is interested in the idea and there's certainly welcome to contact you. So Brent, what's the best way for them to do that?   Brent: Sure. Number one, I have to get in a plug for our new website that has recently been redesigned. That's at w w w dot rehab works dot org. So that is the Florida general website. But to contact me directly, I'd be happy for folks to shoot me an email. And that is Brent dot McNeal at VR.fldoe.org.   Carol: Excellent. And Tina, how about you if somebody wanted to reach out and talk to you?   Tina: Sure. And I'll give you my contact first. That same thing with Brent. You can reach me on the state system at tina.Herzik@VR.fldoe.org or you can reach me on my service source, which is Tina dot herzik h e r z i k at service source all one word dot org. Please look up our website as well, ServiceSource.org. You'll get to hear and see all the other wonderful things we're doing throughout the country and you can see what's happening with other parts of our business. But we are very unique with this partnership. As far as what service source is doing for what we're talking about today. But that's also in the information when you look it up.     Carol: Excellent. Yeah, I really appreciate both being on. This is very cool to hear about what is. Happen and that it's sustained. It's really lasted the test of time, which is really interesting as well. And Brent, I hope you keep me posted on what's going on with those staff salaries later on. So I wish you both the best and happy holidays.   Tina: You, too. Thank you so much, Carol.   Brent: Thank you so much, Carol. And thanks, Tina, for agreeing to do this. It's been a great experience and happy to spread the word and hope that it's helpful for folks.   Tina: I'm glad we're working together, Brent, This is great, continuing our journey. That's right. Happy holidays, both of you.   Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening

Q&A from the recent “Ecomm Vs Expert Smackdown”. Ben Moote asked a question about imposter syndrome. Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com Magnetic Marketing ---Transcript--- Russell Brunson: Good morning, everybody. This is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Seekers podcast. Today's episode, probably the next couple episodes, I'm going to do some Q and A. And the way we actually did this Q and A was kind of fun. Alison Prince and I did an event last week called the E-comm versus expert smack down. We had some hot seats and some hot seats were very specific to whatever topic we were talking about. But some of them were things were, I think would just help everybody. And so I'm grabbing some of these clips of our responses to hopefully help you guys. So the very first one actually was a question asked by Ben Moote, and he's someone who used to work for ClickFunnels way back in the day, and then has gone on to go out there and he creates products and services and he's published his stuff and he's been at all the events and he's doing the work. And he asked a question about imposter syndrome. And I know this is one that I think everybody struggles with at least in some point in your career. And so I thought it was powerful and I thought it'd be useful for all of you guys to hear as well. So we're going to cue the theme song. We come back, you're actually going to hear Brent Coppieters on our side ask the question and then Alison and I will respond to it. And hopefully from that, you get a nugget or two that's going to help you out in your journey along the way. Thanks so much. And with that said, let's cue up the Marking Secrets theme song. Who's up next? Brent Coppieters: Okay. This is from our friend, Ben. So this goes to, again, the mindset that you guys have just touched base on. And I appreciate Ben just being really open and honest about this question. So I'll give you a little bit of context here, and then I'll ask the question. He says my belief that things are scarce and that I don't deserve it are so strong that I am actively losing so much money, so much opportunity to give and serve, close friendships and more. It's wrong, but it'd break me to break that belief. So it's this belief he's got. So the question is what has been the most successful path that you've chosen to kick that negative inner voice in the mouth and move forward? Russell: Imposter syndrome, right? This is something that people hear all the time. Like, I feel like I have imposter syndrome. I don't feel worthy. I don't feel ready. I don't, those things that happened in all of our heads. And I got to be completely honest with you. Yesterday, I couldn't sleep night before this whole event started. Why? I was freaked out. I was scared to death. It doesn't matter what level you're at, you're always nervous. You never feel ready. You never feel worthy. You never feel... Like every funnel event, backstage, I'm like, oh my gosh, why are people here? I'm a little kid. I don't even know what I'm talking about. What if they see through me and they don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. And it's just all these things keep happening. And I have to come back to like, look, it's not about me. I think that's the problem is that we try to put it all on our shoulders. And when you realize it's not about you, it's like, I'm here to serve those people. That's when it starts shifting for you. And for me when I'm backstage, when I was here yesterday before I came out, I had to consciously get in this thought and I do it through prayer. I do it through thinking, through whatever it is. But I'm thinking, okay, I'm nervous. I'm anxious. But this is about me, and this is not about me. This is about these people who have been called to serve. And if I don't step in and don't serve those people, that's not what I want either. And so it's trying to get out and it's, I understand. Because it's hard and it comes back every single time. It's not like, oh, I kicked that 10 years ago and it's done. No, every single time. Every time people, like FHL before I go out, every presentation I get nervous. You still get nervous? I'm like every time, because I put it on me. What if I mess up? What if they don't like me? What if I talk too fast? What if I slur... And I'm like, okay, okay. I'm like, it's not about me, not about me. And I start saying prayers for myself. I pray. And I'm like, please help me to be able to serve these people. Please, when I'm talking or I'm saying something, let the right things show up so that I can deliver it. Because it's about their experience, not mine. And so for me, that's the biggest thing. Because it doesn't go away. At least it hasn't for me yet. I'm hoping someday it does. That'd be amazing. But it's shifting from me to them. And when you start shifting that, it takes the pressure off your shoulders because you're realizing it's not about you. And if it was about me, I'm not talented enough to actually do what I do. Suzanne isl fully aware, I am not that talented. I'm not that gifted. I'm not a good speaker. I slur, I talk too fast. Like even my wife last night, she's like, I jumped in for a little while. She's like, you were talking so fast. Can people understand you? I'm like, oh crap. I don't even know. I hope they can. I'm not that good. But I've just learned so much like, I've been called to show these people. I'm probably going to mess up, half are going to hate me by the end. Some are going to be confused. But there's a group of people who they're going to hear my voice. That's the goal. And so like that shift is what gets me out of that. And so I think hopefully partially to help give people comfort, it's like, we all feel, I still feel it, heavy. And the bigger the thing is, the heavier it is. Number two is like some personal validation for you. I told Stephen Larsen, this is the first product I've ever bought from Stephen Larson ever was the product you and him did together. So you're creating good stuff. You're making good offers. You're doing good. So hopefully that's validation for you as well. It's like, oh my gosh, I got Russell to go run and find his credit card on New Year's Eve at two in the freaking morning. And then the order failed and he kept trying, kept trying, because he wanted the thing. He didn't want to miss out on it. So, you made a really good offer. I was up at two in the morning buying your guys stuff. And so, hopefully that's some personal validation for you as well. Alison Prince: One thing, I remember the first time Russell asked me to speak on stage. Guys, I did e-commerce for a reason, so I could hide behind my computer screen. And so Russell asked me to speak and I just remember all this fear that I had inside of me and what Russell goes through. I've seen it behind, I see him dancing. We were doing pushups yesterday to get the antsiness out. It's a real thing and it doesn't go away. But one thing that I've done is I picture that fear holding me down. And so I'm like, if I can figure out how to get rid of that fear, offload that fear, then I can step into who God needs me to be. And so you'll notice when I come on stage for the first time, I'll hug Russell and he doesn't, you don't know that I do this, but in my mind I'm like, okay Russell, you're holding my fear for me because it's too heavy for me. Russell: Oh my gosh. Alison: And he walks off the stage and then I feel lighter. And so it's a visual thing for me. And then even at Funnel Hacking Live, my 12 year old was on, because I want them around this community. He was there, comes to me, he said, "Mom, I got your fear. I'm going to hold your fear for you." And it was recorded and it was so sweet. And so that's kind of become a thing for us of when our kids do something hard or when I'm about to go on stage or present on an online thing and they can see the nerves, they'll come to me and they'll say, "Mom, let me hold your fear. Go step into who God needs you to be right now. It's not about you. It's about everybody else." And I think that has helped me tremendously, that visualization. So thank you so much. And I'll hold your fear. Russell: Now I know. I'll be offstage like, just kidding. Brent: That's cool. And I wonder too, Alison, maybe you could just talk for a minute about momentum coaches a little bit here and what they do and how they help. Alison: Yes. I can't tell you how much momentum coaches have helped me personally. And it was such a big thing for me. That's why I was like, Russell, we have to have these for our people. The coaches have been trained to understand these feelings. And just like Camille was talking about earlier, some of the stuff that she's going through and the pressures that she's feeling, she hops on a call with a momentum coach, you have two a month and you get to talk to them. It's not in a big group. You can talk about how you're feeling. We've actually had people come on and say the momentum coach was actually worth the entire cost of the program because it helped them with that, like this limiting belief that you have, it is holding you back, this momentum coach is the one that can actually hold that fear for you. And help talk you through that so that you can step into who God needs you to be. Like you needed to be there for Russell. You needed to be there for him. And the momentum coaches are there to help you through that process, to help you understand why you're feeling the way that you feel and break that down for you. No, they're not psychologists or any of that stuff. They're life coaches, but they're trained in the business world. They're trained in the entrepreneurial world. They understand the higher the level, what do they say? The higher the level, the higher the devil, right? They understand that process. And they're there for us. I know I won't go through the program, my business, without them. Russell doesn't do it. And so that's why we wanted to provide it for you. So hop on a call with that momentum coach and they'll talk you through it. And like Russell said, it doesn't go away. That's why these momentum coaches don't go away. They show up with you time and time and time again to help people deal with this. Russell: To help people understand too, the personal, like when my business had grown up really, sort of started really big and the whole thing collapsed. And I was like, mentally, it's like, oh my gosh, I'm a failure. I messed up, all these kind of things. And it was the first time I hired a coach and it was coach Mandy. And I hired her. My friends was like, I have a friend who's a coach, do you want to hire her? I'm like, duh, but I don't do that thing. Like I'm not a... But I hired her as a coach and it was like, man, so much work to get my brain and my mind to a spot where I could continue to move forward and have success. And so when I launched Inner Circle, one of the big selling points, I was like, everyone's coming to Inner Circle at this time to learn marketing. But I'm like, most people are great at marketing. They understand it, but there's something here that's keeping them from the next level and the next, next level, next level. And so I hired coach Mandy full-time and she works with all the Inner Circle members. That's who your coach was when you came in. The same thing, like 90% of the work was working with coach Mandy to get people out of here. And I'm like, oh, and then by the way, do this on your funnel. It's like, boom. They explode. And it's like, oh, I was in my own way this whole time. And so when we launched this Funnel Hacking Live, that's when Alison brought in this amazing team of people who are our coaches who are doing that now for you. Because it's, like I said, I think a lot of times you guys are coming for marketing or for funnel, but like that stuff's in the books, like read the book. It's usually you getting belief in the process, in yourself and the next thing, actually doing that is the key to each level of growth. Brent: Thank you, Ben. Alison: We understood that. Brent: Thank you, Ben. Appreciate that, buddy. So glad you're here with us. Russell: He's so sweet. Brent: Yeah, he's awesome. Alison: And that's another, sorry, that's another thing. I feel so blessed to be able to work with people in the 2ccx program, be able to hear their stories and to watch them go through this transformation. I just, I feel very blessed, honestly, to be able to work with those that are willing to take that risk to change the world. Russell: It's awesome. Brent: You know, I think Russell, and I appreciate that Alison, I shared with you other day someone who posted on our Facebook group about how they jumped on a hot seat with you a few weeks ago. They told their team, we're upping our prices. Russell says we up our prices. They went on vacation for two weeks, came back. And I think what, they added like another $22,000 a month, I think, to their business just by raising their prices from your suggestion. Russell: One suggestion, they covered the cost of the program every month for the rest of their lives. And it'll keep going from there. Because that was the beginning. So cool. Brent: So good. Thank you. All right. We've got time for just one or two maybe questions left. Alison: No, can we do this all day? Brent: Might as well. Russell: Would they want that? Brent: Are you guys enjoying this so far, by the way? Is this fun to see? Alison: Oh my gosh, everybody exploded. Russell: And I'm hoping like, obviously we're talking to certain people, but my guess, maybe I'm crazy. My guess is there's more than one person who feels like Ben does. There's more than one person who felt like, so my guess is, my hope is that all of you guys are gaining something personally for yourself. Like, oh my gosh, like that's how I felt. I remember the first time I went to a Tony Robbins event and Tony does all these interventions with people. And part of me is like, I want an intervention, but I'm like part of me is scared to death. I don't want him to look into my soul and do his Tony thing. But as he's doing it with all these other people, I was like, oh my gosh, he's speaking to me, he's speaking to me. And all these things were like the aha's I actually needed. I was like, oh, thank heavens I don't have to be in the hot seat, but I still get the value of it. And so hopefully you guys are getting that as well. Alison: And another thing, this is I actually what we do in the 2ccx program is we do these hot seats. And they're usually a little bit smaller groups and we can really dive in to help your business. So this is just kind of like a sampling, but we do it consistently over and over and over again. And people have multiple hot seats to help them too, because you have different sticking points throughout your business. It's not just the one dial tone that you need to get that clarity. You're going to need help in a month. That's just what business is. Because we can't stop. We have the goal post here, and then the next one and the next one. When you put out the Two Comma Club award, I'm like, I got to get that thing with the expert side. And then next year you're like, we're doing the- Russell: Two Comma Club X. Alison: Two Comma Club X. And I'm like, I got to get that one. You've got the 25 and then you had the give the million dollars away and we just keep moving our goal post. And to be able to get to those goal posts, you're going to run into new challenges. And that's why this program is like month after month after month. Russell: Yeah. So fun.

Enjoy part two of this classic episode series where Andrew Warner from Mixergy interviews Russell on the ClickFunnels startup story! Hit me up on IG! @russellbrunson Text Me! 208-231-3797 Join my newsletter at marketingsecrets.com ClubHouseWithRussell.com ---Transcript--- Alright everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope yesterday you enjoyed part one of the Clickfunnels start up story interview at the Dry Bar Comedy Club with Andrew. I love the way he interviews. I hope you're enjoying it as well. So we are going to dive right into part 2 of 4 from this interview. And again, if you're liking these interviews please, please, please take a snapshot on your phone, post it on Facebook, Instagram or wherever you do your posting and tag me in it and use hashtag marketing secrets so I can see that you're talking about it. I'd appreciate it. With that said, we're going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we'll start in on part 2 of the interview of the Clickfunnels start up story. Andrew: You know what, I've talked to a few of your people because they're so good, that Dave could really be a leader on his own, start his own company, he's got his own online reputation, the whole thing. I keep asking him, “Why do you work for Russell? What is it that lets you be second to Russell who's getting all the attention?” And I've got some answers and would you mind coming up here and in a second I'm going to ask you. No, come back here and I'll just bring you up in a second. Actually, you know what, it looks like you can come pretty fast. I thought that it would be a little bit more, I thought it would be more of a thing to get mics on people. And I realized if Collette can do it…. Okay honestly, dig down deep. Why did you want to stick with him? Brent: Through all that stuff? Andrew: Yeah. Brent: I don't know. My heart was just racing. As he started telling that story, it just makes me sick to my stomach. As you scroll down and look at all those businesses of, for years, every 30 days it was a new business launch, it was crazy. Always why I stuck with him is, you know, Collette mentioned that spirit. He's absolutely different than anybody else I've ever met in my entire life, a friend…. Andrew: Of what? Give me an example. Let's be more specific. Back then, not today, he's got this track record, adoring fans, I asked him to do an interview, everyone wants him on his podcast. Back then when it wasn't going so well. Give me an example that let you know this is a guy who's going to figure it out eventually, and I could possibly go down, watch him go to jail, but I believe that it's going to go up. Brent: Well, at the time when things are crashing, I saw him as the income stopped. And he had started a program that he loves, obviously wrestling, and he brought an Olympic wrestling coach to Boise and he brought all these amazing wrestlers to Boise and he wanted them to be able to train and get to the Olympics, he wanted to help them get there and live their dream. And you know, he was supplementing, at the time the business was paying for these guys to do a little bit of work for us, they weren't doing very much for us. But I saw him out of his own pocket, be paying for these guys. And I knew how hard he wanted to support them. And there was a day when my wife and I, we were struggling because I just, I was concerned about him financially because he was supplementing and trying to keep this business afloat, and we talked about things and I came into the office one day and I asked if I could talk to him and sat down, and kind of spoke in language that I normally don't speak in, I might have dropped a bomb or two. It was, I was so concerned I pretty much told him, I can't keep doing this, I can't keep watching you every month pulling the money that you saved for your family to try keep jobs for other people. I said, I'll leave if that helps you. And the fact that he stuck with people, that was the true character of who he is. Andrew: He kept paying your salary, kept sticking with you, and also constantly launching things. Brent: Absolutely. Andrew: That you've never seen anyone implement like him. Brent: You know some people call it faith or belief. He has this inherit belief that he can truly change people's lives. Andrew: That's it, even when he wasn't fully in control of his own. Alright thanks. Thanks for, give him a big round of applause, thanks for being up here. I feel like this is the thing that helped get you out of trouble and potentially, and getting out of potential jail. What is this business that you created? Russell: So we, during the time of that and this there was time, probably a year and a half-two years that we were trying all sorts of stuff. And again, marginal success on a lot of them, nothing like….and this was the one, we actually, this is before….I've done a lot of webinars and speaking from seminars and stuff like that, but this is right when auto webinars were coming out and Mike Filsaime had just done an auto webinar and a couple of people, and I felt like that was going to be the future thing. So we're like, what do we do the webinar on? We didn't know. And we flew out to Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher's office for two days and picked their brains, went to Rich Schefren's office for a day. And then on the flight home, I'm just like sick to my stomach. I couldn't figure out what's the thing that we could serve people the most right now. And on the flight home I was like, all the internet marketing stuff we do works for internet marketers, but we're way better at like local business. Like if a chiropractor implements like two things it works. Or if a dentist does it. But I was like, I don't want to be the guy going to dentists, but we could be the backbone for that. What if we created an opportunity where people could come in, we train them, and we connect them with the right tools and resources, and then they could go and sell to chiropractors and dentists. And that's what the idea was. We turned it into an offer called Dotcom Secrets Local, it was a thousand dollar offer at the time. Did the auto webinar for it, and it launched and within 90 days it had done over a million dollars, which covered payroll taxes and then got us out of debt to the point now we could stop and dream again, and believe again and try to figure out what we really wanted to do. Andrew: Dotcom Secrets Local to a million dollars within 90 days. And how did you find the people who were going to sign up for this. A lot of us will have landing pages like this, we'll have these funnels. How did you get people in this funnel? Russell: And this was pre-Facebook too, so it wasn't just like go turn Facebook ads on. But you know, one thing that happened over all the years prior to this, I'd met a lot of people and go to a lot of events and get to know everybody. And everyone I met, you know, you meet a lot of people who have lists, they have followings, they have different things like that. I just got to know them really, really well. And in the past I'd promote a lot of their products, they'd promote my products. So we had this one and we did it first to my list, and it did really well. So I then I then called them and I'm like, “Okay, I did this webinar to my list, these are the numbers, it did awesome. Do you want to do it to your list as well?” and they're like, “Oh sure. Sounds like a great offer.” We did that list and it did good for them too. And we told the next person and then, if you have a webinar, it's kind of like the speaking circuit, if you're good at speaking then people will put you all over the place. Same thing, if you have a webinar that converts, then it's easy to get a lot of people to do it. So as soon as that one worked and it converted well, then people lined up and we kept doing it, doing it, and doing it, and it was really quick to get to that spot pretty quick. Andrew: I went on Facebook recently and I saw webinar slides from Russell Brunson, I went to the landing page, Clickfunnels page and I signed up and I'll talk about it maybe later, but I bought it and I know other people did. And I've seen other people say, “Russell's webinar technique is the thing that just works.” I'm wondering how did you figure it out? How did you come across this and how did you build it and make it work? Russell: Yeah, so rewind back probably ten years prior to this, when I was first learning this whole business. I went to my very first internet marketing seminar ever, it was Armand Morin's Big Seminar. Did you ever go to Big Seminar? Anyway, I went to it and I had no idea what to expect. I thought it was going to be like, I showed up with my laptop and I was going to like, I thought we were a bunch of geeks going to do computer stuff. And the first person got onstage and started speaking and at the end of it he sold like a two thousand dollar thing. And I'd never seen this before. I saw people jumping up and running to the back of the room to buy it. And I'm like this little 23 year old kid and I was counting the people in the back of the room, doing the math, you know doing the math and I'm like, that guy made 60 thousand dollars in an hour. And the next guy gets up and does his presentation and I watch this for three days and I was like, I'm super shy and introverted, but that skill is worth learning. If someone can walk on a stage and make 100,000 dollars in an hour, I need to learn how to do that. So I started that. And it was really bad for the first probably 8 or 9 months. I tried to do it. I'd go to places and I just, I couldn't figure it out. And then I started asking the people who were good because you go there and all the speakers kind of talk and hang out, and I'd watch the ones that always had the people in the back of the room. And I'd ask them questions, I'm like, ‘What did I do wrong? I feel like I'm teaching the best stuff possible.' And they're like, ‘That's the problem, it's not about teaching, it's about stories, telling stories and breaking beliefs.” So for about the next two years I was about once a month flying somewhere to speak, and then when I would go I would meet all the speakers and find out what they were doing and I'd watch them and I'd take notes on the different things they were saying and how they were saying it. And then I kept taking my presentation and tweaking it, and tweaking it, and tweaking it. And you know, now 12 years later, I've done so many webinars, it kind of worked. The process works now. Andrew: You are a really good story teller and I've seen you do that. I've seen you do it, and I know you're going to do it even more. What I'm curious about is the belief system that you were saying, breaking people's…what was it that you said? Russell: False beliefs. Andrew: Breaking people's false beliefs. How do you understand what, like as you look at this audience, do you understand what some of our false beliefs are? Russell: If I knew what I was selling I could figure out for sure. Andrew: If you knew what you were selling. Alright we're selling this belief that entrepreneurship does work. And I know we're all going to go through a period like some of the ones that you had where things just aren't' working, other people aren't believing in us, almost failure, what is at that point, the belief system that we have to work on? What do you recognize in people here? Russell: So usually there's three core beliefs that people have. The first is about the opportunity itself right. So like with entrepreneurship, the first belief that people have is could I actually be an entrepreneur? And some people who actually believe that, they're like, I'm in. And that's an easy one. But for those who don't there's a reason and usually it's like, they saw a parent that tried to do it. And the parent tried to be an entrepreneur and wasn't able to and they saw that failure. Or they'd tried it in the past and they failed or whatever it is. So it's showing them that even if you tried in the past and showed different ways, let me tell you a story. And for me, I could show 800 different failures. But eventually you get better and you get better until eventually you have the thing that actually works. So I tell a story to kind of show that, to make them believe that, oh my gosh maybe I just need to try a couple more times. And then the second level of beliefs is like beliefs about themselves like, I'm sure it works for you, Russell or Andrew but not for me because I'm different. It's helping them figure out their false beliefs, and if you can break that, then the third one is like, then they always want to blame somebody else. “I could lose lots of weight but my wife buys lots of cupcakes and candy. So I could do it, but because of that I can't.” So then it's like figuring out how you break the beliefs of the external people that are going to keep them. Andrew: And how would you know what that is? How would you know who the external influencers are, that your potential customers are worried about? Russell: I think for most of us it's because the thing that we're selling is something that, one of our, Nick Barely said “Our mess becomes our message.” For most of us, what we're selling is the thing we struggled with before. So I think back about me as 12 year old Russell, watching Don Lepre, like what would have kept me back? And I would have been like, I can't afford classified ads. Like if you showed me how I can, if you could tell me a story of, oh my gosh I could afford classified ads. Now that belief's gone and now I'm going to go give you money. It's just kind of remembering back to the state that you were in when you were trying to figure this stuff out as well. Andrew: Who was who I met when we were coming in here that said that they were part of Russell's mastermind and I asked how much did you pay and he said, “I'm not telling you.” I can't see who that person was. But I know you got a mastermind, people coming in. I'm wondering how much of it comes from that? working with people directly, seeing them in the group share openly, and then saying, ah, this is what my potential customers are feeling? Russell: 100% At this point especially. People always ask me, “Where do you go, Russell, to learn stuff?” and it's my mastermind, because I bring, all the people come in and they're all in different industries and you see that. You see the road blocks that hold people back, but then they also share the stuff that they're doing and it's like, that's 100% now where I get most of my intell. Because people ask me, “Why, you're a software company, why in the world do you have a mastermind group?” And it's because the reason why our software is good is because we have the mastermind group, where they're all crowd sourcing, they're doing all this stuff and bringing back to us, and then we're able to make shifts and pivots based on that. Andrew: Somehow we just lost Apple, but that's okay. It's back, good. There we go. This is the next thing, Rippln. Russell: I forgot I put that one in there. Andrew: I went back and I watched the YouTube video explaining it. It's a cartoon. I thought it was a professional voice over artist, no it's you. You're really comfortable getting on stage and talking. But basically in that video that you guys can see in the top left of your screen, it's Russell, through this voice over and cartoon explaining, “Look, you guys were around in the early days of Facebook, you told your friends, here's how many friends you would have had, for the sake of numbers, let's say you told 7 people and let's say they told 7 people, and that's how things spread. And the same thing happened with Pinterest and all these other sites. Don't you ever wish that instead of making them rich by telling stuff, you made yourself rich? Well here's how Rippln comes in.” and then you created it. And Rippln was what? Russell: So Rippln was actually one of my friend's ideas, and he is a network marketing guy so he's like, “We're building a network marketing program.” And I'd like dabbled in network marketing, never been involved with it. And he came and was like, “Hey, be part of this.” And I was like, “No.” and then he sold us on the whole pitch of the idea, network marketers are really good at selling you on vision, and I was like, “Okay, that sounds awesome.” And then my role was to write the pitch. So I wrote the pitch, did the voice over, did the video, and then we launched it and we had in six weeks, it was like 1.5 million people signed up for Rippln, and I thought it was like, “This is the thing, I'm done.” My down line was like half of the company. And I was like, when this thing goes live, it's going to be amazing. And then the tech side of it, what we're promising people in this video that the main developer ended up dying and he had all the code. So they had to restart building it in the middle of this thing. And it was like thing after thing and by the time it finally got done, everyone had lost interest. It was like 8 months later, and I think the biggest check I got was like $47 for the whole thing. And I was just like, I spent like 6 months of my life. It was like a penny a day. It was horrible. Andrew: I'm just wondering whether I should ask this or not. Russell: Go for it. Andrew: So I stopped asking about religion, but I get the sense that you believe that there's a spiritual element here that keeps you from seeing, my down line is growing, the whole thing is working. Is any of this, does it feel divinely inspired to you? Be honest. Russell: Business or…? Andrew: Business, life, success, things working out, so much so that when you're at your lowest, you feel like there's some divine guidance, some divine hand that says, “Russell, it's going to work out. Russell, I don't know if I got you, but I know you got this. Go do it.” I feel that from you and I… Russell: I 100% believe that. Andrew: You do? Russell: Every bit of it. I believe that God gives us talents and gifts and abilities and then watches what we do with it. And if we do good then he increases our capacity to do more. And if we do good with it, increases our capacity… Andrew: if you earn it? If you do good, if you use what God gives you, then you get more. So you think that that is your duty to do that and if you don't do more, if you don't pick yourself up after Rippln, you've let down God. Do you believe that? Is that it? Or that you haven't lived up to… Russell: Yeah, I don't think I feel that I've let down God, but I definitely feel like I haven't lived up to my potential, you know. But also I feel like a lot of stuff, as I was putting together that document, all the pages, it's interesting because each one of them, looking in hindsight, each built upon the next thing and the next thing. And there's twice we tried to build Clickfunnels and each one was like the next level, and each one was a stepping stone. Like Rippln, if I wouldn't have done Rippln, that was my very first viral video we ever created. I learned how to pitch things and when we did the Clickfunnels initial sales video, because I had done this one, I knew how to do this one. So for me, it's less of like I let down God, as much as like, it's just like the piece, what are you going to do with this? Are you going to do something with it? It doesn't mean it's going to be successful, but it means, if you do well with this, then we're going to increase your capacity for the next step, and the next thing. But we definitely, especially in times at the office, we talk about this a lot. We definitely feel that what we do is a spiritual mission. Andrew: You do? Russell: 100% yeah. I don't think that it's just like, we're lucky. I think the way that the people have come, the partnerships, how it was created is super inspired. Andrew: You know what, a lot of us are selling things that are software, PDF guide, this, that, it's really hard to find the bigger mission in it. You're finding the bigger mission in Funnels. What is that bigger mission? Really, how do you connect with it? Because you're right, if you can find that bigger meaning then the work becomes more meaningful and you're working with become, it's more exciting to work with them, more meaningful to do it. How did you find it in funnels? What is the meaning? Russell: So for us, and I'm thinking about members in my inner circle, so right now as of today I think we had 68,000 members in Clickfunnels, which is the big number we all brag about. But for me, that's 68,000 entrepreneurs, each one has a gift. So I think about, one member I'll mention his name's Chris Wark, he runs chrisbeatcancer.com and Chris was someone who came down with cancer and was given a death sentence, and instead of going through chemo therapy he decided, ‘I'm going to see if I can heal myself.” And he did. Cleared himself of cancer. And then instead of just being like, ‘cool, I'm going to go back into work.' He was like, ‘Man I need to help other people.' So he started a blog and started doing some things, and now he's got this thing where he's helped thousands and thousands of people to naturally cure themselves of cancer. And that's one of our 68,000 people. Andrew: See, you're focusing on him where I think a lot of us would focus on, here's one person who's just a smarmy marketer, and here's who's creating….but you don't. That's not who you are. Look, I see it in your eyes and you're shaking your head. That's not it at all, it's not even a put on. Russell: It's funny because for me it's like, I understand because I get it all the time from people all the time, “Oh he's this slimy marketer.” The first time people meet me, all the time, the first time their introduced, that's a lot of times the first impression. And they get closer and they feel the heart and it's just like, “oh my gosh, I had you wrong.” I get that all the time from people. Andrew: Brian, sorry Ryan and Brad, are either of them here? Would one of you come up here? Yeah, come on up. Because they felt that way, right? Russell: I don't know about them. I know who you're thinking about. Audience member: I think it's Theron. {Crosstalk} Andrew: No, no stay up here, as long as you're here. Theron come on up. Audience member: If it wasn't me, then I'm going to sit back in the seats. Andrew: Are you nervous? Audience member: A little bit. Is there another Ryan and Brad? Russell: Different story, another story. Do you want to come up? Theron had no idea we were bringing him onstage. Andrew: Come on over here. Let's stand in the center so we can get you on camera. Does this help? Russell: Do you want me to introduce Theron real quick? Andrew: Yeah, please. Russell: So Theron is one of the Harmon Brothers, they're the ones who did the viral video for us. Andrew: I heard that you felt that he was a scam. What was the situation and how did you honestly feel? Theron: I don't know that it…well… Russell: Be honest. Theron: I know, I don't think that I felt that Clickfunnels itself was a scam, Russell: Just Russell. Theron: But that it just felt like so many of the ways that the funnels were built and the types of language they were using, it felt like it was that side of the internet. So I became very, well basically we were kind of in a desperate situation, where we had a video that had not performed and not worked out the way we wanted it to work out. Andrew: The video that you created for Russell? Theron: No, another client. Andrew: Another client, okay. Theron: And so our CEO had used Clickfunnels product to help drive, I think it was attendance to a big video event. And so he had some familiarity with the product, so he goes to Russell and at the same time Russell's like, “I'm a big fan of you guys.” So he's coming to us and these things are happening. Yeah, it was almost the same day. So we're thinking like this and we're like, “Well, they seem to really know how to drive traffic, to really know how to drive conversion. And we feellike we know how to drive conversion as well, but for some reason we missed it on this one.” So we're like, “Well, let's do a deal.” Andrew: What do you mean missed it? Okay, go ahead, go through to the end. Theron: We were failing our client. We were failing on our client. We weren't giving them and ROI. So we said, let's do a deal with Russell and we'll have our internal team compete with his team, and we're humble enough to say we're failing our client. We want our client to succeed, let's bring in their team and see if they can make a funnel that can bring down the cost for acquisition, bring up the return on investment for our client, and they were able to do it.  And then we said, what we'll do is we'll write a script, we'll take you through our script writing process, but we don't want to do the video because we don't want to be affiliated with you. Russell: The contract said, “You can't tell anyone ever that the Harmon Brothers wrote the script for you.” Andrew: Wow, because you didn't want to be associated with something that you thought was a little too scammy for… Theron: Yeah, we just didn't want our brand kind of brought down to their brand, which is super arrogant and really wrong headed. And in any case, so we go into this script writing training, and I wasn't following his podcast, I wasn't listening to enough. I mean, read Dotcom Secrets, those kinds of things are like, well, there's some really valuable stuff there, this is really interesting. A nd then as we got to know each other and really start to connect, like you said, heart to heart. And to feel what he's really about, and the types of team, the people that he surrounds himself with, I was like, wow, these are really, really good people. And they have a mission here that they feel, just like we feel that about our own group. And in any case, by the end of that 2 day retreat we're like, all off in private saying, “First of all we like what we've written and second of all, we'd really like to work with these guys and I think we're plenty happy being connected to them and associated with them.” So it's been a ride and a blessing ever since. Russell: We're about to start video number two with them. Andrew: You what? Russell: We're about to start video number two with them right now. Theron: Anyway, we love them. Andrew: Alright, give him a big round, yeah. Thanks. This was pivotal for you guys. Lead Pages, there's an article about how Lead Pages raised $5 million, and you saw that and you thought… Russell: Well, what happened was Todd, so Todd's the cofounder of Clickfunnels, and he was working with us at the time and he would fly to Boise about once a quarter and we'd work on the next project, the new idea. And that morning he woke up and he saw that, and then he forwarded me the article. And he's Atlanta, so it's east coast, so I'm still in bed. And he's got a 4 hour flight to Boise and he's just getting angry, because Todd is, Todd's like a genius. He literally, when he landed in Boise and he saw me and he's like, “We can build Lead Pages tonight. I will clone, I will beat it. We're going to launch this, this week while we're here.” He's that good of a developer. He, I've never seen someone code as fast and as good as him. He's amazing. So he comes in, he's mad because he's like, “This is the stupidest site in the world. We could literally clone this. Let's just do it.” And I'm like, “Yes, let's clone it.” And we're all excited and then he's like, “Do you want me to add any other features while I'm doing it.” And I'm like, ‘Oh, yes. We should do this, and we should do this.” And then the scope creep from the marketer comes, and we ended up spending an entire week in front of a whiteboard mapping out all my dreams, “If we could do this and this and what kind of shopping cart, and we could do upsells, and what if we could actually move things on the page instead of just having it sit there. And what if…” and Todd's just taking notes and everything. And then he's like, “Okay, I think I could do this.” And he told me though, “If I do this, I don't want to do this as an employee. I want to do this as a partner.” And at first I was like, ugh, because I didn't want to do the partnership thing. And then the best decision I've ever made in my life, outside of marrying my wife was saying yes to Todd. Said, “Let's do it.” And then he flew home and built Clickfunnels. Andrew: Wow. And this is after trying software so much. I have screenshots of all the different, it's not even worth going into it, of all the different products you created, there was one about, it was digital repo, right? Russell: That was a good idea. Andrew: Digital Repo, man. What was…. Russell: So I used to sell ebooks and stuff, and people would steal it and email it to their friends and I'd get angry. Andrew: Can I read this? How to protect every type of lowlife and other form of human scum from cheating you from the profits you should be making by hijacking, stealing, and illegally prostituting….your online digital products. Russell: Theron, why did you think we were…..Just kidding. So no, it was this really cool product where you take an ebook and it would protect it, and if somebody gave it to their friend, you could push a button and it would take back access. It was like the coolest thing in the world, we thought. Andrew: And there was software that was going to attach your ad to any other software that was out there. There was software that was going to, what are some of the other ones? It's going to hit me later on. But we're talking about a dozen different pieces of software, a dozen different attempts at software. What's one? I thought somebody remembered one of them. They're just the kind of stuff you'd never think of. There was one that was kind of like Clickfunnels, an early version of Clickfunnels for landing pages. Why did you want to get into software when you were teaching, creating membership sites? What was software, what was drawing you to it? Russell: I think honestly, when I first learned this internet marketing game, the first mentor I had, the first person I saw was a guy name Armand Morin and Armand had all these little software products. Ecover generator, sales letter generator, everything generator, so that's what I kept seeing. I was like, I need to create software because he made software. In fact, I even shifted my major from, I can't remember what it was before, to computer information systems, because I was like, I'm going to learn how to code, because I couldn't afford programmers. And then that's just kind of what I'd seen. And then I was trying to think of ideas for software. And every time I would get stuck, instead of trying to find something to do, I'd be like let me just, let me just hire a guy to go build that, and then I can sell it somebody else as well. So that's kind of how it started. Andrew: And it was a lot of different tools, a lot of different attempts, and then this one was the one that you went with. I think this is an early version of the home page, basically saying, “Coming soon, sign up.” The first one didn't work out. And then you saw someone else on a forum who had a version that was better. What was his name? This is I think Dylan Jones. Russell: Oh you're talking about the editor, yes. Okay, so the story was, Todd built the first version of Clickfunnels and Dylan who became one of our cofounders, I'd been working with Dylan as a designer for about 6 years prior. And he his hands, and we talked about this earlier, he is the best designer I've ever seen in my life, he is amazing. He would, but he's also, this is the pros and cons of Dylan. He, I've talked about this onstage at Funnel Hacking Live, so I have no problem saying this. He would agree. But I would give him a project, and I couldn't hear, he wouldn't respond back to me, and I wouldn't hear from him for 2 or 3 months, and then one day in the middle of the night he messaged me, “Hey, rent's due tomorrow. Do you have any projects for me?” and I'd be so mad at him, and I look back at every project we'd done in the last 3 or 4 months that other designers had done, and I'd just resend him all the lists, just boom, give him 12 sites and I'd go to bed. I'd wake up 5 or 6 hours later and all of them were done, perfectly, amazing, some of the best designs ever, and then he'd send me a bill for whatever, and then I'd send him money and he'd disappear again for like 5 months. And I could never get a hold of him. I'd be like, “I need you to tweak something.” And he was just gone. And that was my pattern for 6 years with him. And then fast forward to when Todd and I were building Clickfunnels, we were at Traffic Conversion and we were up in the hotel room at like 3 in the morning trying to, we were on dribble.com trying to find a UI designer to help us, and we couldn't get a hold of all these people, and all the sudden on Skype Dylan popped in, I saw his thing pop up. I was like, “Todd, Dylan just showed up.” And he's like, “Do you think he needs some money?” I'm like, “I guarantee he needs money.” So I'm like, “Hey man!” And Dylan messaged back. He's like, “Hey.” I'm like, “Do you need some money?” and he's like, “Yeah, you got any projects?” I'm like, “Yes, I do.” I'm like, “We built this cool thing, it's called Clickfunnels, but the UI is horrible and the editor is horrible and there's any way we could hire you for a week to fly to Boise and just do all the UI for every single page of the app?” and he kind of said no at first because, “I'm developing my own website builder. I might have spent 6 years on it, so I can't do it.” Andrew: It was this, he had something that was essentially Clickfunnels, right? Russell: No, no. It was just pages though, so it'd just do pages, there was no funnels. Andrew: Right, closer to Lead Pages. Russell: Lead Pages, but amazing. You could move things around. But he did tell me that, “I'm working on something.” So eventually we got him to come, flew to Boise, spent a week, did all of our UI, and then we went and launched our beta to my list. So we launched the beta, got some signups, and then a week before the launch, launch was supposed to happen, all the affiliates were lined up, everything was supposed to happen. He sends me, I don't know if he sent you the video, but he sends me this little video that's like a 30 second video of him demoing the editor he'd built. And I probably watched that video, I don't know, at least a hundred times. And I was just sick to my stomach because I was like, “I hate Clickfunnels right now. I can't move things on my pages, I can't do anything.” I was just, and I sent it to Todd and then I didn't hear from him for like an hour, and he messaged me back and he's like, “I'm pissed.” I'm like, “Me too.” And I'm like, “What do we do?” and I was like, “We have to have his editor or I don't even want to sell this thing.” And I called Dylan and I'm like, “Would you be willing to sell?” and he's like, “No, I'm selling it and we're going to sell it for $100.” It was like $100 this one time for this editor that designed all the websites. I was like, “Dude, it is worth so much more than that. Please?” and we spent all night going back and forth negotiating. And finally, we came to like, “I will give you this editor if I can be a cofounder and be a partner.” And Todd and I sat there, brainstorming and figured out if we could do it and finally said yes. And then him and Dylan and Todd flew back to Boise and for the next week just sat in a room with a whole bunch of caffeine and figured out how to smush Dylan's editor into Clickfunnels to get the editor to be the editor that you guys know today.

On today’s episode you will hear part 2 of 4 of Russell’s interview with Andrew Warner about the Clickfunnels start up story. Here are some of the awesome things you will hear in this part of the story: Find out from an employee of Russell’s, Brent, why he stuck with the company through potential bankruptcy and jail time for Russell. Find out who thought Clickfunnels seemed like a scammy company and therefore didn’t want others to know they’d worked with them. And hear how Clickfunnels actually finally came to fruition after many other failed software company attempts. So listen here to hear how Todd and Dylan became cofounders of Clickfunnels and together got the project off the ground. ---Transcript--- Alright everybody, this is Russell Brunson. Welcome back to the Marketing Secrets podcast. I hope yesterday you enjoyed part one of the Clickfunnels start up story interview at the Dry Bar Comedy Club with Andrew. I love the way he interviews. I hope you’re enjoying it as well. So we are going to dive right into part 2 of 4 from this interview. And again, if you’re liking these interviews please, please, please take a snapshot on your phone, post it on Facebook, Instagram or wherever you do your posting and tag me in it and use hashtag marketing secrets so I can see that you’re talking about it. I’d appreciate it. With that said, we’re going to queue up the theme song, when we come back we’ll start in on part 2 of the interview of the Clickfunnels start up story. Andrew: You know what, I’ve talked to a few of your people because they’re so good, that Dave could really be a leader on his own, start his own company, he’s got his own online reputation, the whole thing. I keep asking him, “Why do you work for Russell? What is it that lets you be second to Russell who’s getting all the attention?” And I’ve got some answers and would you mind coming up here and in a second I’m going to ask you. No, come back here and I’ll just bring you up in a second. Actually, you know what, it looks like you can come pretty fast. I thought that it would be a little bit more, I thought it would be more of a thing to get mics on people. And I realized if Collette can do it…. Okay honestly, dig down deep. Why did you want to stick with him? Brent: Through all that stuff? Andrew: Yeah. Brent: I don’t know. My heart was just racing. As he started telling that story, it just makes me sick to my stomach. As you scroll down and look at all those businesses of, for years, every 30 days it was a new business launch, it was crazy. Always why I stuck with him is, you know, Collette mentioned that spirit. He’s absolutely different than anybody else I’ve ever met in my entire life, a friend…. Andrew: Of what? Give me an example. Let’s be more specific. Back then, not today, he’s got this track record, adoring fans, I asked him to do an interview, everyone wants him on his podcast. Back then when it wasn’t going so well. Give me an example that let you know this is a guy who’s going to figure it out eventually, and I could possibly go down, watch him go to jail, but I believe that it’s going to go up. Brent: Well, at the time when things are crashing, I saw him as the income stopped. And he had started a program that he loves, obviously wrestling, and he brought an Olympic wrestling coach to Boise and he brought all these amazing wrestlers to Boise and he wanted them to be able to train and get to the Olympics, he wanted to help them get there and live their dream. And you know, he was supplementing, at the time the business was paying for these guys to do a little bit of work for us, they weren’t doing very much for us. But I saw him out of his own pocket, be paying for these guys. And I knew how hard he wanted to support them. And there was a day when my wife and I, we were struggling because I just, I was concerned about him financially because he was supplementing and trying to keep this business afloat, and we talked about things and I came into the office one day and I asked if I could talk to him and sat down, and kind of spoke in language that I normally don’t speak in, I might have dropped a bomb or two. It was, I was so concerned I pretty much told him, I can’t keep doing this, I can’t keep watching you every month pulling the money that you saved for your family to try keep jobs for other people. I said, I’ll leave if that helps you. And the fact that he stuck with people, that was the true character of who he is. Andrew: He kept paying your salary, kept sticking with you, and also constantly launching things. Brent: Absolutely. Andrew: That you’ve never seen anyone implement like him. Brent: You know some people call it faith or belief. He has this inherit belief that he can truly change people’s lives. Andrew: That’s it, even when he wasn’t fully in control of his own. Alright thanks. Thanks for, give him a big round of applause, thanks for being up here. I feel like this is the thing that helped get you out of trouble and potentially, and getting out of potential jail. What is this business that you created? Russell: So we, during the time of that and this there was time, probably a year and a half-two years that we were trying all sorts of stuff. And again, marginal success on a lot of them, nothing like….and this was the one, we actually, this is before….I’ve done a lot of webinars and speaking from seminars and stuff like that, but this is right when auto webinars were coming out and Mike Filsaime had just done an auto webinar and a couple of people, and I felt like that was going to be the future thing. So we’re like, what do we do the webinar on? We didn’t know. And we flew out to Ryan Deiss and Perry Belcher’s office for two days and picked their brains, went to Rich Schefren’s office for a day. And then on the flight home, I’m just like sick to my stomach. I couldn’t figure out what’s the thing that we could serve people the most right now. And on the flight home I was like, all the internet marketing stuff we do works for internet marketers, but we’re way better at like local business. Like if a chiropractor implements like two things it works. Or if a dentist does it. But I was like, I don’t want to be the guy going to dentists, but we could be the backbone for that. What if we created an opportunity where people could come in, we train them, and we connect them with the right tools and resources, and then they could go and sell to chiropractors and dentists. And that’s what the idea was. We turned it into an offer called Dotcom Secrets Local, it was a thousand dollar offer at the time. Did the auto webinar for it, and it launched and within 90 days it had done over a million dollars, which covered payroll taxes and then got us out of debt to the point now we could stop and dream again, and believe again and try to figure out what we really wanted to do. Andrew: Dotcom Secrets Local to a million dollars within 90 days. And how did you find the people who were going to sign up for this. A lot of us will have landing pages like this, we’ll have these funnels. How did you get people in this funnel? Russell: And this was pre-Facebook too, so it wasn’t just like go turn Facebook ads on. But you know, one thing that happened over all the years prior to this, I’d met a lot of people and go to a lot of events and get to know everybody. And everyone I met, you know, you meet a lot of people who have lists, they have followings, they have different things like that. I just got to know them really, really well. And in the past I’d promote a lot of their products, they’d promote my products. So we had this one and we did it first to my list, and it did really well. So I then I then called them and I’m like, “Okay, I did this webinar to my list, these are the numbers, it did awesome. Do you want to do it to your list as well?” and they’re like, “Oh sure. Sounds like a great offer.” We did that list and it did good for them too. And we told the next person and then, if you have a webinar, it’s kind of like the speaking circuit, if you’re good at speaking then people will put you all over the place. Same thing, if you have a webinar that converts, then it’s easy to get a lot of people to do it. So as soon as that one worked and it converted well, then people lined up and we kept doing it, doing it, and doing it, and it was really quick to get to that spot pretty quick. Andrew: I went on Facebook recently and I saw webinar slides from Russell Brunson, I went to the landing page, Clickfunnels page and I signed up and I’ll talk about it maybe later, but I bought it and I know other people did. And I’ve seen other people say, “Russell’s webinar technique is the thing that just works.” I’m wondering how did you figure it out? How did you come across this and how did you build it and make it work? Russell: Yeah, so rewind back probably ten years prior to this, when I was first learning this whole business. I went to my very first internet marketing seminar ever, it was Armand Morin’s Big Seminar. Did you ever go to Big Seminar? Anyway, I went to it and I had no idea what to expect. I thought it was going to be like, I showed up with my laptop and I was going to like, I thought we were a bunch of geeks going to do computer stuff. And the first person got onstage and started speaking and at the end of it he sold like a two thousand dollar thing. And I’d never seen this before. I saw people jumping up and running to the back of the room to buy it. And I’m like this little 23 year old kid and I was counting the people in the back of the room, doing the math, you know doing the math and I’m like, that guy made 60 thousand dollars in an hour. And the next guy gets up and does his presentation and I watch this for three days and I was like, I’m super shy and introverted, but that skill is worth learning. If someone can walk on a stage and make 100,000 dollars in an hour, I need to learn how to do that. So I started that. And it was really bad for the first probably 8 or 9 months. I tried to do it. I’d go to places and I just, I couldn’t figure it out. And then I started asking the people who were good because you go there and all the speakers kind of talk and hang out, and I’d watch the ones that always had the people in the back of the room. And I’d ask them questions, I’m like, ‘What did I do wrong? I feel like I’m teaching the best stuff possible.’ And they’re like, ‘That’s the problem, it’s not about teaching, it’s about stories, telling stories and breaking beliefs.” So for about the next two years I was about once a month flying somewhere to speak, and then when I would go I would meet all the speakers and find out what they were doing and I’d watch them and I’d take notes on the different things they were saying and how they were saying it. And then I kept taking my presentation and tweaking it, and tweaking it, and tweaking it. And you know, now 12 years later, I’ve done so many webinars, it kind of worked. The process works now. Andrew: You are a really good story teller and I’ve seen you do that. I’ve seen you do it, and I know you’re going to do it even more. What I’m curious about is the belief system that you were saying, breaking people’s…what was it that you said? Russell: False beliefs. Andrew: Breaking people’s false beliefs. How do you understand what, like as you look at this audience, do you understand what some of our false beliefs are? Russell: If I knew what I was selling I could figure out for sure. Andrew: If you knew what you were selling. Alright we’re selling this belief that entrepreneurship does work. And I know we’re all going to go through a period like some of the ones that you had where things just aren’t’ working, other people aren’t believing in us, almost failure, what is at that point, the belief system that we have to work on? What do you recognize in people here? Russell: So usually there’s three core beliefs that people have. The first is about the opportunity itself right. So like with entrepreneurship, the first belief that people have is could I actually be an entrepreneur? And some people who actually believe that, they’re like, I’m in. And that’s an easy one. But for those who don’t there’s a reason and usually it’s like, they saw a parent that tried to do it. And the parent tried to be an entrepreneur and wasn’t able to and they saw that failure. Or they’d tried it in the past and they failed or whatever it is. So it’s showing them that even if you tried in the past and showed different ways, let me tell you a story. And for me, I could show 800 different failures. But eventually you get better and you get better until eventually you have the thing that actually works. So I tell a story to kind of show that, to make them believe that, oh my gosh maybe I just need to try a couple more times. And then the second level of beliefs is like beliefs about themselves like, I’m sure it works for you, Russell or Andrew but not for me because I’m different. It’s helping them figure out their false beliefs, and if you can break that, then the third one is like, then they always want to blame somebody else. “I could lose lots of weight but my wife buys lots of cupcakes and candy. So I could do it, but because of that I can’t.” So then it’s like figuring out how you break the beliefs of the external people that are going to keep them. Andrew: And how would you know what that is? How would you know who the external influencers are, that your potential customers are worried about? Russell: I think for most of us it’s because the thing that we’re selling is something that, one of our, Nick Barely said “Our mess becomes our message.” For most of us, what we’re selling is the thing we struggled with before. So I think back about me as 12 year old Russell, watching Don Lepre, like what would have kept me back? And I would have been like, I can’t afford classified ads. Like if you showed me how I can, if you could tell me a story of, oh my gosh I could afford classified ads. Now that belief’s gone and now I’m going to go give you money. It’s just kind of remembering back to the state that you were in when you were trying to figure this stuff out as well. Andrew: Who was who I met when we were coming in here that said that they were part of Russell’s mastermind and I asked how much did you pay and he said, “I’m not telling you.” I can’t see who that person was. But I know you got a mastermind, people coming in. I’m wondering how much of it comes from that? working with people directly, seeing them in the group share openly, and then saying, ah, this is what my potential customers are feeling? Russell: 100% At this point especially. People always ask me, “Where do you go, Russell, to learn stuff?” and it’s my mastermind, because I bring, all the people come in and they’re all in different industries and you see that. You see the road blocks that hold people back, but then they also share the stuff that they’re doing and it’s like, that’s 100% now where I get most of my intell. Because people ask me, “Why, you’re a software company, why in the world do you have a mastermind group?” And it’s because the reason why our software is good is because we have the mastermind group, where they’re all crowd sourcing, they’re doing all this stuff and bringing back to us, and then we’re able to make shifts and pivots based on that. Andrew: Somehow we just lost Apple, but that’s okay. It’s back, good. There we go. This is the next thing, Rippln. Russell: I forgot I put that one in there. Andrew: I went back and I watched the YouTube video explaining it. It’s a cartoon. I thought it was a professional voice over artist, no it’s you. You’re really comfortable getting on stage and talking. But basically in that video that you guys can see in the top left of your screen, it’s Russell, through this voice over and cartoon explaining, “Look, you guys were around in the early days of Facebook, you told your friends, here’s how many friends you would have had, for the sake of numbers, let’s say you told 7 people and let’s say they told 7 people, and that’s how things spread. And the same thing happened with Pinterest and all these other sites. Don’t you ever wish that instead of making them rich by telling stuff, you made yourself rich? Well here’s how Rippln comes in.” and then you created it. And Rippln was what? Russell: So Rippln was actually one of my friend’s ideas, and he is a network marketing guy so he’s like, “We’re building a network marketing program.” And I’d like dabbled in network marketing, never been involved with it. And he came and was like, “Hey, be part of this.” And I was like, “No.” and then he sold us on the whole pitch of the idea, network marketers are really good at selling you on vision, and I was like, “Okay, that sounds awesome.” And then my role was to write the pitch. So I wrote the pitch, did the voice over, did the video, and then we launched it and we had in six weeks, it was like 1.5 million people signed up for Rippln, and I thought it was like, “This is the thing, I’m done.” My down line was like half of the company. And I was like, when this thing goes live, it’s going to be amazing. And then the tech side of it, what we’re promising people in this video that the main developer ended up dying and he had all the code. So they had to restart building it in the middle of this thing. And it was like thing after thing and by the time it finally got done, everyone had lost interest. It was like 8 months later, and I think the biggest check I got was like $47 for the whole thing. And I was just like, I spent like 6 months of my life. It was like a penny a day. It was horrible. Andrew: I’m just wondering whether I should ask this or not. Russell: Go for it. Andrew: So I stopped asking about religion, but I get the sense that you believe that there’s a spiritual element here that keeps you from seeing, my down line is growing, the whole thing is working. Is any of this, does it feel divinely inspired to you? Be honest. Russell: Business or…? Andrew: Business, life, success, things working out, so much so that when you’re at your lowest, you feel like there’s some divine guidance, some divine hand that says, “Russell, it’s going to work out. Russell, I don’t know if I got you, but I know you got this. Go do it.” I feel that from you and I… Russell: I 100% believe that. Andrew: You do? Russell: Every bit of it. I believe that God gives us talents and gifts and abilities and then watches what we do with it. And if we do good then he increases our capacity to do more. And if we do good with it, increases our capacity… Andrew: if you earn it? If you do good, if you use what God gives you, then you get more. So you think that that is your duty to do that and if you don’t do more, if you don’t pick yourself up after Rippln, you’ve let down God. Do you believe that? Is that it? Or that you haven’t lived up to… Russell: Yeah, I don’t think I feel that I’ve let down God, but I definitely feel like I haven’t lived up to my potential, you know. But also I feel like a lot of stuff, as I was putting together that document, all the pages, it’s interesting because each one of them, looking in hindsight, each built upon the next thing and the next thing. And there’s twice we tried to build Clickfunnels and each one was like the next level, and each one was a stepping stone. Like Rippln, if I wouldn’t have done Rippln, that was my very first viral video we ever created. I learned how to pitch things and when we did the Clickfunnels initial sales video, because I had done this one, I knew how to do this one. So for me, it’s less of like I let down God, as much as like, it’s just like the piece, what are you going to do with this? Are you going to do something with it? It doesn’t mean it’s going to be successful, but it means, if you do well with this, then we’re going to increase your capacity for the next step, and the next thing. But we definitely, especially in times at the office, we talk about this a lot. We definitely feel that what we do is a spiritual mission. Andrew: You do? Russell: 100% yeah. I don’t think that it’s just like, we’re lucky. I think the way that the people have come, the partnerships, how it was created is super inspired. Andrew: You know what, a lot of us are selling things that are software, PDF guide, this, that, it’s really hard to find the bigger mission in it. You’re finding the bigger mission in Funnels. What is that bigger mission? Really, how do you connect with it? Because you’re right, if you can find that bigger meaning then the work becomes more meaningful and you’re working with become, it’s more exciting to work with them, more meaningful to do it. How did you find it in funnels? What is the meaning? Russell: So for us, and I’m thinking about members in my inner circle, so right now as of today I think we had 68,000 members in Clickfunnels, which is the big number we all brag about. But for me, that’s 68,000 entrepreneurs, each one has a gift. So I think about, one member I’ll mention his name’s Chris Wark, he runs chrisbeatcancer.com and Chris was someone who came down with cancer and was given a death sentence, and instead of going through chemo therapy he decided, ‘I’m going to see if I can heal myself.” And he did. Cleared himself of cancer. And then instead of just being like, ‘cool, I’m going to go back into work.’ He was like, ‘Man I need to help other people.’ So he started a blog and started doing some things, and now he’s got this thing where he’s helped thousands and thousands of people to naturally cure themselves of cancer. And that’s one of our 68,000 people. Andrew: See, you’re focusing on him where I think a lot of us would focus on, here’s one person who’s just a smarmy marketer, and here’s who’s creating….but you don’t. That’s not who you are. Look, I see it in your eyes and you’re shaking your head. That’s not it at all, it’s not even a put on. Russell: It’s funny because for me it’s like, I understand because I get it all the time from people all the time, “Oh he’s this slimy marketer.” The first time people meet me, all the time, the first time their introduced, that’s a lot of times the first impression. And they get closer and they feel the heart and it’s just like, “oh my gosh, I had you wrong.” I get that all the time from people. Andrew: Brian, sorry Ryan and Brad, are either of them here? Would one of you come up here? Yeah, come on up. Because they felt that way, right? Russell: I don’t know about them. I know who you’re thinking about. Audience member: I think it’s Theron. {Crosstalk} Andrew: No, no stay up here, as long as you’re here. Theron come on up. Audience member: If it wasn’t me, then I’m going to sit back in the seats. Andrew: Are you nervous? Audience member: A little bit. Is there another Ryan and Brad? Russell: Different story, another story. Do you want to come up? Theron had no idea we were bringing him onstage. Andrew: Come on over here. Let’s stand in the center so we can get you on camera. Does this help? Russell: Do you want me to introduce Theron real quick? Andrew: Yeah, please. Russell: So Theron is one of the Harmon Brothers, they’re the ones who did the viral video for us. Andrew: I heard that you felt that he was a scam. What was the situation and how did you honestly feel? Theron: I don’t know that it…well… Russell: Be honest. Theron: I know, I don’t think that I felt that Clickfunnels itself was a scam, Russell: Just Russell. Theron: But that it just felt like so many of the ways that the funnels were built and the types of language they were using, it felt like it was that side of the internet. So I became very, well basically we were kind of in a desperate situation, where we had a video that had not performed and not worked out the way we wanted it to work out. Andrew: The video that you created for Russell? Theron: No, another client. Andrew: Another client, okay. Theron: And so our CEO had used Clickfunnels product to help drive, I think it was attendance to a big video event. And so he had some familiarity with the product, so he goes to Russell and at the same time Russell’s like, “I’m a big fan of you guys.” So he’s coming to us and these things are happening. Yeah, it was almost the same day. So we’re thinking like this and we’re like, “Well, they seem to really know how to drive traffic, to really know how to drive conversion. And we feellike we know how to drive conversion as well, but for some reason we missed it on this one.” So we’re like, “Well, let’s do a deal.” Andrew: What do you mean missed it? Okay, go ahead, go through to the end. Theron: We were failing our client. We were failing on our client. We weren’t giving them and ROI. So we said, let’s do a deal with Russell and we’ll have our internal team compete with his team, and we’re humble enough to say we’re failing our client. We want our client to succeed, let’s bring in their team and see if they can make a funnel that can bring down the cost for acquisition, bring up the return on investment for our client, and they were able to do it.  And then we said, what we’ll do is we’ll write a script, we’ll take you through our script writing process, but we don’t want to do the video because we don’t want to be affiliated with you. Russell: The contract said, “You can’t tell anyone ever that the Harmon Brothers wrote the script for you.” Andrew: Wow, because you didn’t want to be associated with something that you thought was a little too scammy for… Theron: Yeah, we just didn’t want our brand kind of brought down to their brand, which is super arrogant and really wrong headed. And in any case, so we go into this script writing training, and I wasn’t following his podcast, I wasn’t listening to enough. I mean, read Dotcom Secrets, those kinds of things are like, well, there’s some really valuable stuff there, this is really interesting. A nd then as we got to know each other and really start to connect, like you said, heart to heart. And to feel what he’s really about, and the types of team, the people that he surrounds himself with, I was like, wow, these are really, really good people. And they have a mission here that they feel, just like we feel that about our own group. And in any case, by the end of that 2 day retreat we’re like, all off in private saying, “First of all we like what we’ve written and second of all, we’d really like to work with these guys and I think we’re plenty happy being connected to them and associated with them.” So it’s been a ride and a blessing ever since. Russell: We’re about to start video number two with them. Andrew: You what? Russell: We’re about to start video number two with them right now. Theron: Anyway, we love them. Andrew: Alright, give him a big round, yeah. Thanks. This was pivotal for you guys. Lead Pages, there’s an article about how Lead Pages raised $5 million, and you saw that and you thought… Russell: Well, what happened was Todd, so Todd’s the cofounder of Clickfunnels, and he was working with us at the time and he would fly to Boise about once a quarter and we’d work on the next project, the new idea. And that morning he woke up and he saw that, and then he forwarded me the article. And he’s Atlanta, so it’s east coast, so I’m still in bed. And he’s got a 4 hour flight to Boise and he’s just getting angry, because Todd is, Todd’s like a genius. He literally, when he landed in Boise and he saw me and he’s like, “We can build Lead Pages tonight. I will clone, I will beat it. We’re going to launch this, this week while we’re here.” He’s that good of a developer. He, I’ve never seen someone code as fast and as good as him. He’s amazing. So he comes in, he’s mad because he’s like, “This is the stupidest site in the world. We could literally clone this. Let’s just do it.” And I’m like, “Yes, let’s clone it.” And we’re all excited and then he’s like, “Do you want me to add any other features while I’m doing it.” And I’m like, ‘Oh, yes. We should do this, and we should do this.” And then the scope creep from the marketer comes, and we ended up spending an entire week in front of a whiteboard mapping out all my dreams, “If we could do this and this and what kind of shopping cart, and we could do upsells, and what if we could actually move things on the page instead of just having it sit there. And what if…” and Todd’s just taking notes and everything. And then he’s like, “Okay, I think I could do this.” And he told me though, “If I do this, I don’t want to do this as an employee. I want to do this as a partner.” And at first I was like, ugh, because I didn’t want to do the partnership thing. And then the best decision I’ve ever made in my life, outside of marrying my wife was saying yes to Todd. Said, “Let’s do it.” And then he flew home and built Clickfunnels. Andrew: Wow. And this is after trying software so much. I have screenshots of all the different, it’s not even worth going into it, of all the different products you created, there was one about, it was digital repo, right? Russell: That was a good idea. Andrew: Digital Repo, man. What was…. Russell: So I used to sell ebooks and stuff, and people would steal it and email it to their friends and I’d get angry. Andrew: Can I read this? How to protect every type of lowlife and other form of human scum from cheating you from the profits you should be making by hijacking, stealing, and illegally prostituting….your online digital products. Russell: Theron, why did you think we were…..Just kidding. So no, it was this really cool product where you take an ebook and it would protect it, and if somebody gave it to their friend, you could push a button and it would take back access. It was like the coolest thing in the world, we thought. Andrew: And there was software that was going to attach your ad to any other software that was out there. There was software that was going to, what are some of the other ones? It’s going to hit me later on. But we’re talking about a dozen different pieces of software, a dozen different attempts at software. What’s one? I thought somebody remembered one of them. They’re just the kind of stuff you’d never think of. There was one that was kind of like Clickfunnels, an early version of Clickfunnels for landing pages. Why did you want to get into software when you were teaching, creating membership sites? What was software, what was drawing you to it? Russell: I think honestly, when I first learned this internet marketing game, the first mentor I had, the first person I saw was a guy name Armand Morin and Armand had all these little software products. Ecover generator, sales letter generator, everything generator, so that’s what I kept seeing. I was like, I need to create software because he made software. In fact, I even shifted my major from, I can’t remember what it was before, to computer information systems, because I was like, I’m going to learn how to code, because I couldn’t afford programmers. And then that’s just kind of what I’d seen. And then I was trying to think of ideas for software. And every time I would get stuck, instead of trying to find something to do, I’d be like let me just, let me just hire a guy to go build that, and then I can sell it somebody else as well. So that’s kind of how it started. Andrew: And it was a lot of different tools, a lot of different attempts, and then this one was the one that you went with. I think this is an early version of the home page, basically saying, “Coming soon, sign up.” The first one didn’t work out. And then you saw someone else on a forum who had a version that was better. What was his name? This is I think Dylan Jones. Russell: Oh you’re talking about the editor, yes. Okay, so the story was, Todd built the first version of Clickfunnels and Dylan who became one of our cofounders, I’d been working with Dylan as a designer for about 6 years prior. And he his hands, and we talked about this earlier, he is the best designer I’ve ever seen in my life, he is amazing. He would, but he’s also, this is the pros and cons of Dylan. He, I’ve talked about this onstage at Funnel Hacking Live, so I have no problem saying this. He would agree. But I would give him a project, and I couldn’t hear, he wouldn’t respond back to me, and I wouldn’t hear from him for 2 or 3 months, and then one day in the middle of the night he messaged me, “Hey, rent’s due tomorrow. Do you have any projects for me?” and I’d be so mad at him, and I look back at every project we’d done in the last 3 or 4 months that other designers had done, and I’d just resend him all the lists, just boom, give him 12 sites and I’d go to bed. I’d wake up 5 or 6 hours later and all of them were done, perfectly, amazing, some of the best designs ever, and then he’d send me a bill for whatever, and then I’d send him money and he’d disappear again for like 5 months. And I could never get a hold of him. I’d be like, “I need you to tweak something.” And he was just gone. And that was my pattern for 6 years with him. And then fast forward to when Todd and I were building Clickfunnels, we were at Traffic Conversion and we were up in the hotel room at like 3 in the morning trying to, we were on dribble.com trying to find a UI designer to help us, and we couldn’t get a hold of all these people, and all the sudden on Skype Dylan popped in, I saw his thing pop up. I was like, “Todd, Dylan just showed up.” And he’s like, “Do you think he needs some money?” I’m like, “I guarantee he needs money.” So I’m like, “Hey man!” And Dylan messaged back. He’s like, “Hey.” I’m like, “Do you need some money?” and he’s like, “Yeah, you got any projects?” I’m like, “Yes, I do.” I’m like, “We built this cool thing, it’s called Clickfunnels, but the UI is horrible and the editor is horrible and there’s any way we could hire you for a week to fly to Boise and just do all the UI for every single page of the app?” and he kind of said no at first because, “I’m developing my own website builder. I might have spent 6 years on it, so I can’t do it.” Andrew: It was this, he had something that was essentially Clickfunnels, right? Russell: No, no. It was just pages though, so it’d just do pages, there was no funnels. Andrew: Right, closer to Lead Pages. Russell: Lead Pages, but amazing. You could move things around. But he did tell me that, “I’m working on something.” So eventually we got him to come, flew to Boise, spent a week, did all of our UI, and then we went and launched our beta to my list. So we launched the beta, got some signups, and then a week before the launch, launch was supposed to happen, all the affiliates were lined up, everything was supposed to happen. He sends me, I don’t know if he sent you the video, but he sends me this little video that’s like a 30 second video of him demoing the editor he’d built. And I probably watched that video, I don’t know, at least a hundred times. And I was just sick to my stomach because I was like, “I hate Clickfunnels right now. I can’t move things on my pages, I can’t do anything.” I was just, and I sent it to Todd and then I didn’t hear from him for like an hour, and he messaged me back and he’s like, “I’m pissed.” I’m like, “Me too.” And I’m like, “What do we do?” and I was like, “We have to have his editor or I don’t even want to sell this thing.” And I called Dylan and I’m like, “Would you be willing to sell?” and he’s like, “No, I’m selling it and we’re going to sell it for $100.” It was like $100 this one time for this editor that designed all the websites. I was like, “Dude, it is worth so much more than that. Please?” and we spent all night going back and forth negotiating. And finally, we came to like, “I will give you this editor if I can be a cofounder and be a partner.” And Todd and I sat there, brainstorming and figured out if we could do it and finally said yes. And then him and Dylan and Todd flew back to Boise and for the next week just sat in a room with a whole bunch of caffeine and figured out how to smush Dylan’s editor into Clickfunnels to get the editor to be the editor that you guys know today.

In Episode 002 of the Origin Stories: A Podcast About Politics and People, longtime talk radio producer Brent Jabbour speaks with former Republican National Committee Chair Michael Steele about growing up in Washington D.C (and spending time in the south) during the civil rights era. He also talks about his time in seminary school and his transition into politics. Subscribe to the podcast onItunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spreaker, TuneIN, or wherever you consume Podcasts. Again, if you like the project share it with your friends, follow me on Twitter @BrentJabbour and/or like the page on Facebook. Transcript: (Intro) Brent Jabbour: This is episode two of Origin Stories: A Podcast about Politics and People. My name is Brent Jabbour your gracious host, I guess if that is what you want to call me. Today we are going to have a conversation with former Republican National Committee Chair Michael Steele. Now, the reason I chose Michael Steele, is because, in the lead up to President Trump being elected, he was very very critical of the man. And, I thought made him reasonable guy. It made him a guy who didn't necessarily walk the party line to get ahead, to get that Supreme Court seat, which we actually talk about. But, also, when I was doing research into him, I found him fascinating. He went to seminary school, he was planning to become a Catholic Priest. He kind of fell into the world of politics. Also, we spoke about Civil Rights and racism in America. What it was like growing up in Washington D.C. during the 1968 riots. He lived not too far away from U Street in Washington D.C. where much of it was burned after Dr. King was shot and killed. So, it was a really, really, interesting conversation. He was running a little late so I had a lot of time to think about things and prepare for that particular conversation. I prepare, but a lot of times I just want to have a flowing conversation. I just want to speak with people. So I don't want it to feel like an interview with a bunch of prepared questions. It's more so a conversation about where that person came from and how they came to be, so we can all relate to them. There is a little bit of a funny scenario that happened. As I do this, I don't actually have a location. I don't have a studio or anything. So, generally what I will do is pack up my bag full of gear and I will take it to the office of the person I am interviewing. Now, Michael works remotely very often. Kind of here, there, and everywhere. And, so while I was arranging it, and I really wanted to get him in, he could do it while he was in Bowie, MD, which I believe is also where he lives. But, since I didn't have a space to do it, I had to essentially figure something out. So, what I did is, I rented a hotel room, and I didn't want the full rate, because I guess I was just being cheap. So, I actually made an arrangement where I came in in the morning and rented a room by the hour. And, as an anxiety-ridden young man I kept thinking the whole time, people are going to think something is going on. There is a certain connotation about a man who rents a hotel room by the hour first thing in the morning. But, nobody really thinks those things, it's just all in my head. It's irrational anxiety as I like to call it. Once Michael Steele came in, it was just a pleasure to talk to him. He had kind of a family deal going on so he tried to make it quick, but I held him for about an hour. And, I think we had a really, really good conversation. He had similar experiences to me because I grew up going to an all-boys Catholic High School as did he. So we kind of have these mutual situations that went on in our lives. So, I think you will really, really enjoy this. Thank you so much for listening to the previous two episodes. If you really like it, go ahead and share it with your friends. Because I would love everybody to get in on these conversations. And thanks for following me on Twitter @BrentJabbour and remember to subscribe on iTunes so it gets delivered right to your phone every Thursday when we release new episodes. So, here it is Episode number two, Michael Steele, Former Republican National Committee Chair, Lieutenant Governor of Maryland, Here we go: (Music) Brent: So, you brought up family to start and I won't get into depth into that portion of the conversation. You grew up in D.C. correct? In Petworth? And one of the things I realized is you would be have been nine-ten years old during the riots of 68... Michael Steele: The 68 riots, I turned ten that October. Yeah. Brent: And what was that like. Were you cognizant of what was going on at the time? Michael: Yeah. Very much so. In fact, that April, when Dr. King was killed, my mother and I were in downtown DC. We had gone to Julius Lanzburg which was a big department store, a furniture store at the time. And we were on our way back up Georgia Avenue. And, someone jumped on the bus and yelled: "They killed King!" And there was a huge gasp on the bus and it was the weirdest thing because for the rest of the ride home it was dead silent. I mean, buses are usually quiet, but you hear some little chatter here and there. But you could hear a pin drop on this bus. And, It was one of those moments when we got home, and my mother was very upset, and sort of explaining what had happened. My dad comes in, having navigated his way uptown and actually came through areas where they had already started to burn buildings and started to turn over cars and he was very bothered and said: "Folks out here are crazy. They're burning up everything." But, it was really at that moment that you began to understand the impact, that King had had. My mother referred to him as a friend of the family. And so, her explanation to me was that a friend of the family has died. So, that put into context for me what Dr. King meant, not just to the black community at large, but specifically to my narrow slice of it, ya know, my family. So, it was a very impactful day. Brent: Just so I can clear everything up, so I have the full Michael Steele story. You were adopted correct? Michael: I was adopted yes. My sister and I adopted. Brent: And I imagine (by) an African American family based on the reaction (to King)? Michael: There weren't too many white folks adopting black kids back in the day. Brent: It's still D.C. Michael: They were progressive, they weren't that progressive. Brent: When you are in school and everything at that time, are you learning about Dr. King? Did you already know who he is? Michael: No, not really. Dr. King was not on the curricular because it was a real-time experience. Today, he is in the history books. He's an entire class in some courses. Back then, a lot of people forget, Dr. King was anathema to a lot of folks. A lot of folks were not appreciative of the marches and sit-ins and his approach. There was a reason why he wrote the letter to the pastors from the Birmingham jail. Because those pastors were ticked off at him and he wanted to clarify for them that they were the ones who were standing on the wrong side of history. So, that gives you some understanding and appreciation. The same with these towering figures of the day. Malcolm X who was another one who I would grow to understand and appreciate and really get his philosophy. These were, back then, the way we look at political and activist figures today. They're an annoyance. They're loud. They're taking up time on my news. And so, you had that perspective, that tension, that pull and push by what was going on at the time. And I think for a lot of people, particularly for young folks like myself. We were much more concerned about watching Batman, as opposed to paying attention to the politics of the day. Brent: And, did you start to learn and understand the Civil Rights movement after that day. Michael: Well yeah, well again, I'm ten years old. So, from an academic perspective, the answer is no because there really was no context to that until I got into high school. That was a short three or four years later, but still, it wasn't a real-time experience where you would sit down and say, ok, this makes sense. Where a lot of that education would come would be from my parents in their limited way. They weren't towers of political activism or journalism. They weren't writing the narrative. Or even following the narrative that way. But they did put it in the context of what it meant to be a black person in Washington D.C. in the 1960s. It did put it in the context of being a black family from the south. My mother is from Orangeburg. So, we would spend our summers in Orangeburg. I remember even going visiting my great aunt in 1982. And taking her to work, because she worked at a country club. And taking her to work, and I dropped her off at the front. And she said: "Baby, I can't go in the front door." I was like "Why not?" And she pointed to the top of the mantle, and it said: "For Whites Only." This is 1982, they are still displaying the sign. It was family that contextualized the racism and challenges that black folks had to deal with every single day. It wasn't something that you got in a classroom setting. It wasn't something you got in the workplace. It wasn't something you got on the playground. It was really that learning and understanding came from how your family presented that narrative to you. Brent: And, now you've become, a spokesperson, a public figure at this point. And when you are in High School. You're getting into high school, maybe you are 16 years old, and this is in the 1970s. And there is still a long way to go. There is still a lot of racism. And D.C. is probably one of the most African American cities at the time. Do you start to get involved then? Do you start to speak up? Michael: No. No. I was not an activist type. I have never been an activist type. As pro-life as I am, I've only been to one pro-life March and that was by accident. And it's not because I don't support the cause, that's just not my thing. That's not how I express my activism. I'd rather personalize it so you pay attention. I don't want to necessarily get lost in the groupthink. I want you to understand where I'm coming from. For me... I went to a Catholic high school. Archbishop Carroll High School. It was a place where a lot of the... It was an all-boys Catholic high school. So it was a place where a lot of the children, the sons, of political figures, they sent their kids there. So, I had this wonderful cross-current of class, race, as well as other intangibles that you kind of find in a place like that at that time. And Carroll was unique in that it was, they had achieved that balance between black and white. So, it was fifty percent black, fifty percent white school. And you had an opportunity to interact with kids from the suburbs. I was a city kid. So, we had a very different view of the boys from Bowie. So, it was a lot of that. It was the experiential, it was the in the moment for me that kind of taught me how to best do and be and exist. And from that learn how to express my views. So, being surrounded by these kids, and getting to know their parents. I took a liking to politics. And, really thought about doing that at some time. But, my core was focused on becoming a priest. So, while the politics was fun, my calling was to be a priest in the Catholic church. So my thinking was geared toward that. And I would later move into that. Brent: It's weird because I have a similar experience, although not wanting to become a priest. But, I went to an all boys Catholic High School in Toledo, Ohio. But, unfortunately, that made it more segregated. Because it's a city of 20 percent African American. I grew up, my stepfather is black, so I had been used to that. By the way that is one of the hardest things to tell people. Because I, as a liberal, semi-social justice warrior type person, I don't ever want anyone to think that I'm just telling you I know black folks. I don't want that. But I got lucky in the way to have those experiences, so I have family that is black. But in my high school, because it is a private Catholic High School, and even went to a private Catholic Grade School, but that was coed. There were 4-5 black kids in our school. It was mostly upper-Middle class kids, some very wealthy, and I think a lot of the black kids that was, unfortunately, just checking a couple of boxes. And, also at the same time, they were helping the community. And, of course, the school was not in the best neighborhood. It was by the University, but 2-3 blocks away from the most dangerous parts of Toledo Ohio. And, so it was one of those things, where I felt like, I wish I had the opportunity to go to a public school. Michael: Well, the experiences are there. But even in that limited space, what you had, was the experience of home. And that contrasted with 3 or 4 black students who went to your school. It still contrasted with the majority of the experiences you would have at the school because, on any given day, your encounter with those 4 black individuals was probably very limited, unless you became close friends with 1 or 2 of them. Outside of that, and I always believe this, because, from my own experience, home life is outcome determinative. So, I know people who have had very limited exposure to African Americans but have a heightened sensitivity and understanding and appreciation of the black community in a very respectful way. Not in a condescending, oh let us help you poor thing, kind of way. And that is because of how they were raised. They were raised with the sensitivity of understanding that that community and our community, while they look different, we are the same because we are Americans because we live in this area, you find all of these reasons to connect to that community. And, I'll give you a good example of what I mean by the outcome determinative nature of those personal experiences. I had a friend of mine, this was in the early 1990s, she was in Dupont Circle here in D.C. with her little boy. She is African American. He is African American. And he was playing. So, this other little boy, as boys tend to do, came up and started playing with him. and he was a white kid, and they were just playing and having a good time. Well, this white kid's mother comes over and snatches up her son. And told her son: "what did I tell you about playing with them?" Now, this is the 1990s. This is a young mother. This is not a woman who is "grandma." This is someone who is in their late 20s, maybe early 30s, who is clearly instilling in her child racism. Looking at someone who is not white as other. And that is going to have an outcome-determinative effect on this kids expression and appreciation and view of black people. Now, the long story short, my friend who heard this exchange, went up to this woman, picked up her son, and proceeded to smack the crap out of the mother. And said: "How dare you teach your child to be a racist." And walked away. She literally smacked her. But, that's my friend. I can understand. If you knew her, you would say: "Yeah, I see that." So, when you take that experience in 1992, and you relate it back to King's death in 1968, you can see how even though it's a connection, that all of those steps of achievement in between that there are gaps. There are gaps. There are gaps that come from ignorance. There are gaps that come from a sense of disconnection. There are gaps that come because you come from a line of racists. I mean, there are all these things that still push forward this negative narrative. So the family piece, for me, is a critical part to beginning to address a lot of these issues around race. Because race is not an innate experience, it is a learned one. Brent: Right, and I think that is part of the reason I started this project. A lot of it has to do with the idea that... I am talking to young people, my friends, they are in their 30s and in their late 20s, and they have kind of shut themselves down now. Because, they see somebody with that learned racism, with that learned take on whatever issue we face today, and they say: "I don't want to talk to that person. I can't relate to that person, I don't want to be around that person." Okay, I can not relate to a lot of people, but number one, we all have shared human experiences. But, also, you can't... Michael: You can't walk away from that. They have to... Look, the only way you are going to start to change that cycle is to engage. Imagine if King decided: You know what? I just can't relate to Boss Hogg, I can't relate to what's happening in Mississippi, or what's happening in Arkansas, what's happening in places like... You know, everyone thinks about the south, but the greatest experiences of racism I have had have been in the north. Brent: You can actually look at cities like Boston. I mean Boston is probably the most racist city in... I don't want to crap on Boston, but the fact is... Michael: Their history is more profound than... One of the things I learned growing up, spending a lot of time... Again, I grew up in the south, I grew up in D.C. D.C. is a southern jurisdiction. It's below the Mason Dixon Line. But, I spent a lot of time in my parents' backyard in South Carolina and in Virginia. The one thing you could always appreciate is they just let you know right out front: "Naw, I'm not feeling you." And in the north, people put their arms around you, they pretend, then they do all those other things that aren't so Christian. Brent: I think the point that I was trying to make is: You have to understand these peoples' experiences to understand why they got there. And as you said, when it comes to racism, that poor white kid... Well hopefully, there are two scenarios that could come out of it. One, he is going to continue to be racist because his mom is going to continue to reinforce that. Plus, to be fair, he also saw a black woman slap his mother, with a being a young boy not having any context to understand why. Michael: Well yeah, I hadn't thought about that side of it, but yea. Brent: But, you are also going to have the possibility where she learned a lesson that day. Or, maybe he learned that lesson to say that these people aren't so different and that what she was saying was wrong. That's hard because it is hard to look at your mom and at 5 years old say: "Oh, she's wrong." In something that is a big grand scheme of things understanding. So, that was really, almost the full reason why we are doing this. Why are there people who are like this? Well, they grew up that way. They learned bad habits. Whether that's true or not, you get to decide that yourself. So, Michael, you said you wanted to be a priest. I was also going to bring this up, when I was in high school I wanted to be the Pope. However, I didn't want to be a priest. There were loopholes. Michael: Yeah, you can be pope without being a priest. But you gotta have connections to do that. Brent: But, you went to school to become a priest, correct? Michael: Yeah, I joined, after graduating from Johns Hopkins, I entered the Augustinian Seminary at Villanova. And, I started the journey of discernment and expression of vocation, which was probably the most profoundly important thing I have ever done. And I would highly recommend it to anyone. Seriously, because what it did, was it taught me, and I was in for about 2 and a half years, it taught me the limits of my own understanding. It taught me the unrelenting love that God has for us. In our most banal, gross, just total craziness, God still says: "Lord I love you. Yeah, I love you, baby. Come on, you'll work through it, I love you." So, that is a very powerful moment of understanding. Then, the next level of that is turning that into an expression of understanding towards others. So, I look at people very differently. I see people very differently. I hear them very differently than I did before. It's because, in everyone's voice, you can hear pain, joy, fear, resentment, anxiety, all of these things we try to mask. And, it's one of the beautiful parts of vocation, for those who are called to that understanding, and that expression is that one of the gifts, one of the graces you receive, I believe, and it makes sense, that your senses are heightened. Think about a priest in a confessional for 5 hours listening to folks come in and just unload all kinds of humanity on them. Think about the grace it takes to sit there and for every one of those persons, to individualize that moment. We make jokes about, yes, go say three Hail Marys and an Our Father and that's the joke. But that is a very individualized moment. Those three Hail Marys and Our Father are specific to that person. So, that priest has to have an understanding of what that person is saying. He has to be able to listen in a way that God requires him to listen. That for me was just a wonderful wonderful time. In fact, it has defined most of what I have done publicly since. I bring that aspect of my seminary life into my expression as RNC Chairman, so that is very high profile, political. Or, as Lieutenant Governor, an elected official, responsible for service to the people of the state of Maryland. And as a husband, as a father, you try to figure out ways in which you do that. And my mother summed it up for me. And again, I believe in arcs, and how one moment in time connects to another moment in time. So as a young boy, my mother always used to tell me: "You need to shut up and listen." You need to shut up and listen. So, I understood as a young adult, connecting that moment in time from when I was a young kid to this moment in time as a Seminarian and future moments in time as an elected official, as a political leader that the core of that is to shut up and listen. Brent: That is something so hard, especially for my generation, for this rapid information culture. Because, you get stuck in this position, where you are having a conversation, like you and I are, and you get to this position you said something five minutes ago that I wanted to respond to. And, all I'm doing now is thinking about what I'm going to say. I'm better than that because I do this... But it happens to a lot of people. There are a lot of times where I am having a conversation with somebody about something very important and I can tell that they are not listening to me, instead, they are just waiting to talk again. I have the patience to deal with it, it's just what it is. I was going to bring up one more point about the Catholic upbringing. I'm no longer a practicing Catholic. Maybe an atheist, I'm not one hundred sure these days. Michael: Well, that's a leap. Brent: Well, that was a truncated version clearly. It wasn't... Michael: You woke up one morning, and: "I'm done with that." It's all good. God still loves you. Brent: I had a moment like you said the arcs when I was in high school. I think we were on a retreat. And, I was doing a confessional style thing with a priest. and I was just talking to him about something, and I was talking about my faith. Not that at that time, I was still full faith, but I didn't know that I loved the Catholic church but I was at that point. I asked him about something personal to me, I think my mother, and she was divorced and remarried. And at the time when that happened, she was divorced in the mid-eighties, the church was still much in the camp of... Michael: And they are still there. This Pope is pulling the church in a different direction on this issue of divorce. And there are a lot of folks inside the church who are very troubled by that. And I know such rules seem arbitrary and not really fixed to anything. There are Gospel underpinnings that support this idea of the indissolubility of marriage. But, you do then have to... Again, with the arc... Put it up against situations. Because life at the end of the day is situational. So, I remember asking a priest friend of mine as I was going through my processes and trying to contextualize and understand. So, if a woman is in a marriage in which she is beaten every day. Should she stay married to that individual? Or should she divorce? Now the accepted answer is she stays married, she just separates from that individual. She doesn't stay in the house where she is beaten every day. But, she is still married. So, then the next question logically goes: OK so two years later she's now living apart from her husband so she is now "estranged" they're separated. So, she is now in this limbo. She wants to move on with her life. Yet, she is tied by this marriage to an individual that if she goes back to will resume beating her. But, she can't move forward and find someone who will love her and do all the things that are set forth in the vowes: love, honor, yes and even obey on both the man and the woman's part. So what does she do? He didn't have an answer for that. And that's the moment we are now in the church. Where Pope Francis is Divining not defining but Divining an answer. Because he understands the scriptural context. And people relate back to the marriage at Cana they find all these connections. He's also got to make it relevant to what people are actually experiencing today because you don't want through church dogma and so forth to alienate people from God. So it's a very interesting track and it's one of those things that I think a lot of people are willing to jump to particular conclusions. And the one thing, having certainly been inside the church, you come to understand there is a reason it has been around for 2000 years. It's nothing if not patient. Brent: And I think, I was what I was going to say, he eventually said, some things are some things and some... He didn't really have an answer. But it helped me develop that pragmatic view that I kind of realize this man who is a priest. He was saying: "Well, There are no absolutes." Things can change... Michael: Well, there are absolutes. We have ten absolutes by God himself. We call them the Ten Commandments. And then everything else after that is not up for grabs, but... in other words. God has given us what he wants and what his expectations are of these frail things he calls humans. And he has done it in a way in which he fully respects the one gift he's given us. Which when you stop and think about the wisdom of God, you would say why'd he do that. This Idea of free will. And he says: "OK, you have free will but here are ten things I need you to do." And just ask yourselves: How hard are they? And yet, every day we find a way to break one or two of them. And, it speaks to why God loving us, is the core piece because it is the only way it works. Because otherwise, he would be too pissed off at us. Brent: When it comes to the whole "I may be an atheist" conversation. By the way my mother, I mentioned it to her one time she... I was like, I'm 34 years old, I'm allowed to have a crisis of faith every now and again. Michael: Yeah... Not in front of your mother. Brent: I think it was a lot of, I understand exactly what you are saying when you say God himself handed these ten rules. Michael: Everything else is man made. Brent: But it's hard for me because I look at the nature of man. And you can look at the Catholic church, but you can look at any church, any organized religion as it is. It feels to me like so many of the rules, they have a reason for them. They made these rules because... A lot of that, let's look at procreation, that was all to grow the churches. Michael: Of course, you can't take away from the practical truth of why certain things came into being. Look, we all know, staying with the Catholic Church, we used to have a married priesthood. We had a married priesthood for about 400 years in the 2000 year history of the church. And the reason they stopped having a married priesthood is because when a priest would die, the property of that priest would go to family members and not the church. So they wanted to correct that. This is that greedy period in the Church's history. Where you had a lot of man interest as opposed to what is in the interest of God. And so, I understand that. Which is why some of these rules that we adhere to today, they don't make sense if you know the history. Because, you can't sit there and say, we have a celibate priesthood because Christ was celibate. Well, then how do you explain the 400 years when we didn't. Christ was still a celibate back in his days. I get that and understand it. But for me, the institution is a human institution and all that it means. But, the faith that is born out of that institution comes from God. And either you buy into that or you don't. And, a lot of times, I think what happens is we allow ourselves to be distracted by the clothes we wear or the buildings we're in. As opposed to what God has given us innately. Which is a love for him and a love for each other. And the rest of it... Look, if I'm alright by loving you, then it doesn't matter whether or not there is a structure in which I have to go and do that every week like a church. Or, any other type of behavioral restrictions, that should not, in an ideal world, interfere with that. But we know it does. Brent: Well, and that is what I was going to say. You say there are the Ten Commandments and everything else is man-made. And I will give you the pro-life argument because we don't need to argue it. But the fact is, you see many elected officials using specific lines in the bible to go against gay marriage. Michael: No elected official should ever use the Bible for anything other than Sunday school and church services. They need to... You live that out, you don't dictate it to others. So, if you are pro-life Catholic, like myself, then you live that out. I don't need to judge you because God has made it very clear he doesn't like it when we judge each other. That's not my job, that's his job. You can look at the Bible as a source for the theology, as a source for the tradition, capital T, and that's fine. You can accept that or not accept that. You can make the case or not make the case. I choose to look at Deuteronomy where you are very clearly commanded to choose life. And I use that as a way to underpin not just my support for the unborn but my opposition to the death penalty. Because I'm not empowered to distinguish between the life of a child and the life of an adult who happens to be in prison. The church now, with the Pope, is coming around to that latter position. The Pope having recently changed the church's teaching on the death penalty to make it consistent with the idea that we are pro-life. We want to support a culture of life, it doesn't take away from punishment. Yeah, you a bad boy, you are going to get punished. But, there are limits to that punishment. And I think for political leaders, and what we have seen since the 1980s and the rise of the moral majority. The inculcation of that into a political system, thereby weaponizing religion via politics is one of the signs of end times. That to me is one of those signs that you've turned a corner now where you are using religion... And I think this is why you find so many people turned off more and more by religion because it has become more and more of a political theatre in which I get to sit in judgment of your behavior and your thinking and your philosophy. As opposed to as a political actor being more concerned about your welfare and the fairness of the governmental system and all of the things political leaders should be concerned about. Brent: And I think, just to wrap on this religious discussion, although I could do this for hours, I just think, and I basically think what we're saying here is, just live your best life. When it comes to things like that... see, I think the death penalty and abortion are two very separate issues actually because the government is not saying that you should get an abortion or that you have to get an abortion. They are giving you your right to choose. You may disagree with that, that's perfectly fine, but you don't have to do it. Nobody is going to force that. The death penalty is something that is put down by the government. Michael: But it's still an option. You have options... it's not required. Brent: A government official, a judge, or whoever is doing the sentencing, makes that decision; who is technically a government official. Michael: I would argue that the government has already decided in the first instance by writing the law that allows it; so the government has made a decision. Now, has been supported by the people when they, if by referendum they support that, or by the courts in representing the judicial approach, but there is government action on both ends. So, it's just a matter of how you view that. The government passed a law, so it dictated the terms of engagement on that issue, on abortion. On the back end, again, the government is acted. Yes. You're talking about the action of committing the death penalty, but there was a law that was put in place to allow that action to occur just as there's a law in place, to allow the action of an abortion to take place. So, the government is, in both scenarios in my view, a main actor. That's fine. Which is why my core argument around both of these issues is communities need to decide for themselves. No federal government role is required here because you're going to find, as we have found, that not just on issues like abortion and the death penalty, but on a whole host of issues, gay marriage, and the like, most communities want to come to their own, and should be allowed to come to their own conclusion as to what best represents the values of this community. Now if you don't like those values, typically most people don't live in that community. They go someplace where those values do work and if they can't do that; we do live in a society in which we have this little thing called 'majority gets to.' You can go out there and make your case and if your case wins, great. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Brent: Michael, you're kind of telling me, 'if you don't like it, get the hell out.' Michael: No, I'm not telling you that. I'm not telling you that. I'm just... look, look. If you and I disagree on something, what do we do? How do we resolve that? So, a third person comes into this conversation. It's going to take one of two sides. So guess what? That third person, the one who is on the short end of that stick, has got to live with the decision of the other two. So, what do you do otherwise? At that point, I can either get up from the mic and leave the room or I get to say, 'okay, we can finish the conversation although I hate this decision.' That's how this is supposed to work. That applies to everything, not just the very sensitive topics of abortion and gay marriage and all that. That's how this is supposed to work. That's why we're a pluralistic society. Brent: You got into politics, I assume now, having spoken with you in the beginning here, because you got the interest in politics while you were in high school because you were friends with people, who I assume, were sons of politicians. You went to school to be a priest and then you said, 'you know, I think it's time to do some civic duty?' Michael: Yeah. I'm sort of the accidental elected official; accidental party official. I never set out to be county chairman, state chairman, national chairman. Never set out to be an elected official. I liked politics. I liked being engaged in politics, but I was still, even at that time, very much involved in my church. I was a Master of Ceremonies in my parish assisting the priest. I trained the altar servers in the parish. So, I was much more still focused on a lot of those things, but these opportunities kind of came up and I found myself saying, 'okay, yeah, I'll do that, sure.' I remember the first time I ran for office in 1998, for Comptroller. I wasn't thinking about becoming Comptroller of Maryland, but Ellen Sabre and her team came to me said, 'we'd like to have you on the ticket.' My background was as a corporate finance lawyer. Very familiar with tax law and all that good stuff; so it's not like I didn't have the cred to actually do the job, but it wasn't something that I was thinking about. 'Oh, yeah, I want to be an elected official.' For me at that time my expression of service was different. It manifested itself differently. My approach to these things is, you know, God finds a way to put in front you, people who he wants there for a reason; for a particular time and a particular purpose and he knows you don't necessarily see what he sees, but, hey, you know, do it. Now, again, free will. You know, you just say, 'no, I don't want to run,' but it did trigger in my brain another aspect of service. How do I carry out... because I think, for me, a lot of that after I left the Seminary, was how do I carry out this innate desire to serve people. I want to be as helpful as I can. I hate seeing people living in certain conditions in which I think are unnecessary, particularly given the vast amount of opportunities and wealth and things like that, that are available. Why are you somehow isolated from all of that. So, for me, this public service piece was that bridge to connect or to answer the question: Why are you isolated from all of these opportunities? Let's look at that and let's fix it. That really kind of motivated me. Brent: You mentioned being the RNC chair, the Maryland party chair and you were the first black... I'm going to say you're the first black conservative? Michael: Well, it's the first African American state chairman in the country. I was the first one on the Republican side and national chairman, was the second black, but the first in the Republican party, because Ron Brown was the first African American elected to a National party chair. It's pretty good company. Brent: Let's be honest here. You can see it right now with a lot of Trump supporters. Do you face a lot of racism as a... Michael: You didn't face it. You know its there. Look, not everyone's going to love you, and they love you for different reasons. Some people don't like you because you threaten their interests. Some people don't like you because of the color of your skin. You know, I had people say some very stupid things to me when I was chairman and you take it for what it is. You appreciate it for what it is. You know that it's going to be something that you've got to address, but here's the thing; a lot of people sort of think that this is the purvue of Republicans only. Trust me, it isn't. Democrats come off like this holier-than-thou, like there's not a racist bone in their body, you know. I'm like, you understand where the KKK came from. It's your roots. It's there. Everybody has some connection and it animates itself at some point in time and history. It just does, but that, for me at least, is not the main part of the story. The main part of the story is: how do you press through that? Now you can sit back and you can become a victim of it and just sort of cower in the corner or be mad and angry - or - you can confront it and just call it out for what it is when it is and press on to do what you need to get done. You can't let those things, and I use King as the example, you can't let them handicap you. Brent: Of course, I wasn't blaming all Republicans and the point I was making about, today that you see, is the refusal by this administration to fully say that the 'alt-right' or whatever they are, are bad people and we're giving them a voice. I think that's not just what's happening now because of the politics and things, I think it's the 24-hour news culture. They know that they can say something stupid and MS, CNN... all these people are going to put them on. They're going to give them a voice and I feel like they're such a small sect of America. Michael: But they're not. Let me address that. Let's understand how we are where we are. We're here because for good, bad, and I think largely for bad, the current President, then candidate, pricked open a scab and marinated that wound. It gave license to people to openly express what they secretly harbor and think and feel and he used their fear as a weapon against themselves. I think that when you have the situation with Charlotte, you have the policies that are expressed, the Muslim bans and things like that, that is as much against those communities as it is a clarion call to those underbelly feelings that people have about those communities, and now you can go out and you can say it because I'm standing here and I'm giving you the green light. That, to me, is a very dangerous space to be in. Brent: I agree with that and I think that that scab, the wound was initially opened, I mean not initially opened, but this recent wound was opened during the Obama administration and a lot of them were saying that under their breath. I feel like, people like John McCain and people like Mitt Romney, they didn't say those things, so those people didn't feel emboldened and like you said, this President did on the campaign trail. That's an issue. I brought up my iPad because I wanted to bring some facts in here just to put a wrap on the RNC issue. You raised $198 million during the 2010 congressional cycle when you were on 'fire Pelosi bandwagon. You won 63 House seats; biggest pick-up since 1938, where you took the House. They were the most successful elections on House races, over 600 seats, since 1928. Why weren't you reelected as the RNC chair? Michael: ...because no good deed goes unpunished. That's why. Brent: In my head, I had for a long time I had this thing where I was like, 'Michael Steele must have been a terrible RNC chair,' but that's not the case. Michael: That's the narrative though, so let me tell you what the backstory to that is. The back story is, when I was running for chairman, members from around the country, what we call the 168, they're comprised of the national committeeman and national committeewoman and the state chairman of each state and territory. The number comes to about 168. That's the composition of the RNC. You go and you campaign for the job and I think I'm the only chairman who was a county chairman, a state chairman, and an elected official at the time he became chairman and so a lot of the members of the committee knew me from back when I was a county chairman in the 1990s. They knew me when I was state chairman in the early 2000s before I got elected to Lieutenant Governor. So they knew that I'm a grassroots guy and they knew that I resented the way the RNC did business with them, with that State parties. They wanted a champion and this so much explains Donald Trump in that, they wanted someone who would come in and break up the cabal that had festered inside the RNC. The special contracts. The no-bid contracts. The cozy arrangements. The consultant class that had taken over the management of the building, the operation of the building. The dictates that said, alright, if you want money from the RNC you have got to take our vendors. You've got to use our vendors. Even though those vendors didn't have a damn clue about your state or your jurisdiction or your candidates, but you had to pay a premium in order for the RNC to do business with you. They wanted an end to that. I was the guy to do that because I was willing to go in and break those eggs and in the process of doing that, pissed off a lot of people. I got rid of the no-bid process. I canceled about $20 million worth of contracts when I came in the door. You know that's going to piss off a lot of people and it did, and so you started hearing, literally within the first 30 days. I think the first call for my being fired happened three weeks after I got on the job. How the hell does that happen? Well, it happens because you're in there, I fired the entire building when I came in. I said 'no' to a lot of contracts that were already supposed to be paid for. Now the election of 2008 is over. Campaign's over. Why do I have all these people working at the RNC and why am I still writing checks from a campaign that was over? That disrupted the process and I made a lot of enemies. I will admit, I probably could have been a little smarter in dealing with some of that, but there is this sense that being smarter may, may not necessarily be the best thing. Following your instincts and your gut and once you start down that road you just do. I mean, I totally get it, so you have this situation and RNC was a microcosm of what would play out six-years later in that the body wanted someone to come in and clean it up. Clean up the swamp. To drain the swamp inside the RNC. Oh, guess what? Six-years later that's now a national message that those members and their constituents, the voters and their respective states and jurisdictions are saying, we want someone to clean up the swamp. I can see that arc; that connection there. Brent: So, what you're telling me is, you were the proto Donald Trump. Michael: In a little sense, yeah. Without all the crazy, yeah. Look, I said to, I've known Donald Trump a while, and I said to him that I love that Maverick style. This idea of shaking up the system. I didn't have a problem with Donald Trump calling out NATO, alright, because it needed to be called out. It had become a moribund institution. You know, no one had paid attention to it in about seventy-years and so, yeah, let's reevaluate, not necessarily the relationship, which is where Trump went, but let's reevaluate how we're doing business with each other and whether or not this is... we're modernized, so we're all on the same page... I got that. It was the same principle I applied at the RNC. Going in and shaking up the institution from within, but see my goal was to expand the party, so we did a lot of things to... the way we were able to win and how we elected Hispanic governors and African American State Legislators and Judges on the Texas Supreme Court was expanding the breadth of the party, it's reach and it's conversation with communities that didn't look white and over 65. That was the strength. What we're seeing now is a contraction away from that and they're using that contraction as a strength, but I think it's a great weakness to its own detriment. Brent: I have an issue because I understand. I understand the NATO things, the UN things, a lot of the dumb shit that Trump says. I understand it, however, I don't understand how Republicans, voters, that is to say. I get the white working class of voters. I understand them thoroughly. They voted for Donald Trump because he doesn't talk too different than they do. He said he's going to do something for their jobs and frankly, you know what, my Stepdad, worked as a UAW worker who faced a lot of racism from stupid people over the years. So the fact is, is that that doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is men and women in your position who supported him. Who voted for him and they said, you know what, a Supreme Court seat is more important... Michael: That's politics. Brent: Right, I understand, but that's more important than being morally right? Michael: Look, I did not support the President's election in 2016 and I didn't for... along the moral grounds. The Access Hollywood tape, the whole thing, that is like... this is... there's more to the office than just putting a man or a woman in it. There's got to be something tethered to something that's morally sound, but you're talking about looking at the broad electorate. You have to ask yourself a question. If all of that is true and there is this, you know, there should be this distinction between your moral behavior and, a very clear distinction, that if you're morally off track, that that should be disqualifying, or whatever. Ask yourself then, why, after everything he's said and we know about Donald Trump and his relationship with women and the Access Hollywood tape, 52% of white educated women voted for him? He won the majority of the white female vote. He won 30% of the Hispanic vote after 'all Mexicans are rapists' and so forth. He won 10% of the Black vote. Remember, that was 0% at one point in the campaign. He grew it to 10% and the only thing he says is, 'what have you got to lose?' and all of a sudden all of those Black folks say, 'oh, okay.' What I tell people is, take the blinders off. Take the blinders of anger and just 'I hate Donald Trump' and all of that and try to understand the answer to the questions. Why these constituent groups voted for the man who is clearly antithetical to everything that they at least espouse to be about. When you begin to do that, then you begin to see America as it is because regardless of your station, regardless of your class, your race, there is a thread that he's able to pull on and he pulled on it well. Well enough to win a Presidency and folks need to fundamentally understand that because it says more about us then it does about Donald Trump. Brent: Absolutely and I've had the conversation a million times since the 2016 election with my progressive friends and I .... [interupted for time]... The reason I invited you here was because I thought you were as reasonable of a guy as you have been and it's been a great conversation and like I mentioned in my e-mail to you, I worked for Ed Schultz for about eight years and I remember seeing you on Bill Maher's show with him and you guys screamed at each other and it was such a great argument and you guys were having a good time and then the best part about it to me was you were willing to come on the Ed Show sometime the next week and you sat down with him and now you're an MSNBC contributor. So you can say you got my man Big Eddie to thank for that right? Michael: Yes, indeed. I loved Ed. He was a Maverick. He was a guy who pushed against convention and made the conversation real. He was not afraid to tell you what he thought; what he felt. That got him into trouble at times. I can identify with that. Those types of voices, you know, people like to try to put in a box and say, well he was this flaming Liberal or he was this flaming Progressive. Well, Ed was complicated. Ed was a lot of things. If you sat and talked to him you realized that he had some nice conservative positions as well. You understand his history, you know where he came from. That all makes sense, but what you can't lose sight of is that he was authentic and he was the same guy on TV as he was off camera. He was the same guy in the airport as he was in the studio and I think that that level of authenticity is what generated the audience that he had and I think that the kind of support, even when his time was up at MSNBC, that carried with him and stayed with him and that was reflected in his love for his family and the work that he did. So, yeah, I have a lot to thank Ed for. We had great conversations whenever I was on his program and we would go after it on that Liberal/Conservative thing, but it really wasn't about Liberal/Conservatives, it was really about having a conversation. Brent: That's why we're doing what we're doing today. I had a blast. I hope you had fun. Michael: It was a lot of fun and I do appreciate it, bro. Brent: Can we do this again? Michael: Absolutely. Anytime.

In Episode 001 of Origin Stories: A Podcast About Politics and People, longtime talk radio producer Brent Jabbour speaks with Former U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan - D-ND about how he went from growing up in a town of 300 people in North Dakota to become a member of Senate Leadership. Brent and the Senator discuss how tragedy shaped his career, their mutual admiration for Liberal talk show host Ed Schultz, the biggest highlights of what he did while in the Senate and the regret over his vote for the Iraq war. Dorgan also gives his insight to the state of politics today and the highly contested Senate election in his home state.TranscriptBrent Jabbour:This is Episode number One of Origin Stories: A Podcast About Politics and People. My name is Brent Jabbour. If you listened to Episode zero, the pilot of this particular podcast, you know that this is a podcast about discourse. About realizing that people are people and we can have that conversation.I want to thank everyone for so much support on the first episode that I put up. And it all really worked out well because we were able to get up on all the aggregator sites like we had planned. Apple ITunes, the Google Play Store, Stitcher, Spreaker, you can get the podcast there now. So, I'm really happy that you can share this, the first episode of Origin Stories: A Podcast About Politics and People. I'm going to make the intro really really short, so we can get right to the substance. Today, we speak with Byron Dorgan. He is a former Senator from the state of North Dakota, a former U.S. Senator, he was a member of Democratic leadership during the 90s and into the 2000s during the Obama administration. And, he's always been a really really nice guy to me, he's a genuine person from the middle of the country, so he can see things on both sides. And what we've done in this particular podcast is we relitigated the 2016 election just a little bit. We talked about what we can do moving forward. We talked about the highly contested Senate race coming up in November in North Dakota between Heidi Heitkamp and Kevin Cramer. And, we also talked about my good friend Ed Schultz.The Reason I had put Byron Dorgan at the top of the list of people to speak with is that not only because I knew he had been there and done it. But, also because I knew he was always a good friend of my buddy Ed. And, he was always a great friend of the show, but they also had a personal relationship. So, we talked about him. I would say, we spent a good ten minutes talking about him and how tragedy in his personal life had directed him into the world of politics. And I just kind of related that back to the fact that this is why I am doing this because I was inspired following the passing of my good friend Ed. And so that is why we are here. There was something I wanted to get to but I didn't actually record it on the episode because I was a little nervous. And I will explain that nervousness right now. Well before I ever thought about doing politics or working in political talk radio I was a disk jockey on Y94 in Fargo, North Dakota. And, every year they would do the Care for Kids Radiothon which is a fundraiser for a children's hospital. We would record all of these pieces and you would get these heartfelt pieces from families that were affected or helped at the children's hospital in Fargo, North Dakota. And you would get these actualities as well from famous people, newsmakers, people from the area. And, one time I was doing my shift and I got a call from the boss and said: "Hey Senator Byron Dorgan's going to call in and send a little message to those who want to support the Care for Kids Radiothon." And I remember being so nervous to speak with a sitting United States Senator and have him call and speak with me. I remember being very professional. Yes Sir, No Sir. Please say that, Please do that. Thank you so much. And of course, he was a gentleman, as he always was. And I wanted to bring that up with him, but I mentioned it to him, but was still trying figure out the kinks in recording as we started recording that particular episode. Because that was the first one that we recorded. I just had a lot of memory with Byron Dorgan. He was very important in my head when I started this project. I'm not going to spend too much time wasting away here. So let's get to the Business. This is Episode one of Origin Stories: A Podcast About Politics and People with Byron Dorgan. I want to get in a quick thank you to my friend John Kneip and his Band NASAWives for providing the intro music here. And my friend Noel "Scotch" Anderson for providing all of the very cool imagery that you see on the website, on Facebook, and Twitter. I've received a lot of positive feedback on that. Without further ado. Episode one. Byron Dorgan. Here we go!Brent Jabbour: Number one, I guess the first question I would have is how does somebody who is a senator from North Dakota become a member of Democratic Leadership? And you know, it is not the most progressive state in the country, and you were one of the top Senators going at it while you were in the Senate. Senator Byron Dorgan - D-ND:Well, part of that background was that I was a good friend of Thom Daschle. Thom was from South Dakota. We've been best friends for a long long time, both when we were in the U.S. House together; the U.S. Senate together. And, when Thom was elected Democratic Leader, he asked me to be part of his leadership team, and asked me to be the assistant Democratic Floor Leader, and then subsequently the chairman of the Democratic Policy Committee as well. Brent:Was that a big deal for you, being from the middle of the country? To be able to espouse, along with Senator Daschle as well... You guys had a good leadership body, that was not the California/New York leadership that you see now. Senator Dorgan: No, that's True. Now what we see in the Congress. Just to give you a statistic, in the U.S. House, thirty percent of the Democratic Caucus come from just two states, New York and California. We've become far too much of a coastal Party. And, Good for New York and California. There is an old campaign guru who used to always say "You pick cherries where cherries is." What he meant by that, you know you go where the votes are and get em out. It is also the case that you have to plant more cherry trees, right. Good for California and New York, but we need to have a more robust effort in the heartland of the country. Brent:I think we've all talked about it, that is probably why Trump won. Because he was able to connect with those people. Now, North Dakota is probably not going to vote for a Democrat in many scenarios. Obviously, they have the Senators or Senator with Sen. Heitkamp, and you and Sen. Conrad were there. At one Time there were three Democrats representing the state of North Dakota.Sen. Dorgan:For eighteen straight years, in Fact.Brent:But What is it going to take for Democrats to start to understand those people? Sen. Dorgan:Well, I don't think it is a case of Democrats not understanding people. I ran eleven statewide elections in North Dakota as a Democrat and was very successful. So, it is about retail politics. People want to know: Do they get to see you and know you? Do they trust you? Do they like you? And if they know, see, trust and like you, they don't care what party you are from. They want to send somebody to Congress that they trust and they like.So, I think what has happened in North Dakota and much of the heartland is there has not been a national Democratic message to say, here's what our party's about. Our Party is about helping family farmers have a bridge over difficult times. Our party's about working men and women, who are working hard at their jobs and want job security and want opportunities for promotion and so on. Our party is about the people that know about seconds. Second shift, second job, second hand. That is who our party is about. I think our party doctrine has always been, at least for me, is when everybody does well, everybody does well. It's like a wagon train, a wagon train in the old west used to only go as fast as the slowest wagon. So, you don't leave people behind. Brent:I Think what you are saying, I completely agree with. However, the Democrats have left those people behind. Every voting block that you just discussed farmers, workers. Those people voted for Donald Trump because he spoke to them. That is where I'm saying we're not messaging properly to Democrats. If that makes sense to you.Sen. Dorgan:Look, I don't think Democratic presidential candidates who really should be carrying the message, they should have the message of what do we stand for as a Democratic Party. I don't think they even campaign in much of the country. They just give up before the campaign starts and say well that's a red state and we're not going to a red state. People in large swaths of the heartland of America never hear much about the message from the megaphone that comes from a national Democratic candidate. Boy, I am a strong believer in saying if you want to run for President, you don't give up any state. You run everywhere, and you push hard to get that message out. Because I still think people respond to that message no matter where they live. Brent:So I told you when we started this, it is going to be a little bit about you. So I want to talk about young Byron Dorgan. What was it like growing up in North Dakota?Sen. Dorgan: Well, I grew up in a town of 300 people. That was my first 18 years. It was a farm community. We raised some horses and cattle. My Dad ran a gas station in town. But we also raised horses and cattle. I graduated in a high school senior class of nine students. You're never far away from the top or the bottom of those classes. But, I knew everyone in town. Everyone knew me. It's just a town of 300 people. It's where I think I learned character. It's where I developed my values system. It comes from my parents and the community I grew up in about what is right and what is wrong. How do you make judgments about that? I have always been enormously proud of growing up in a tiny little town in southwestern North Dakota. Brent:Do you think that helped you communicate better? Like you said everybody in this town of 300 people knew each other. So it sets you up in a way for being in Congress because there are four hundred and some odd Representatives, while one hundred Senators. But, it gives you that opportunity to communicate with everybody because you are used to that type of tight-knit community. Sen. Dorgan:Absolutely, In a town of three hundred people, you have a microcosm of America. You have a few people who would drink too much and get drunk. We had some old retired guys who would play pinochle at the bar all day. We had some people who were debating should we put pavement on our main street as opposed to having a gravel main street. And, while some people were pushing to do that, other people were pushing saying we didn't want to spend the money. It's a microcosm of our country and the decisions our country makes. But it's also an ability to understand how you get along with people because you have to get along. If you are in a town of three hundred people and you don't get along with a handful of them, that's pretty sad. So you learn to get along. I just learned a lot from that town. Brent:I think that makes sense too, in the way that you can't ostracize anybody in a town that small because there are only 300 people, and where are they going to find anything else. Sen. Dorgan:And to me, when I look at that town, the progressives in that town were the ones saying alright let's build, let's progress, let's change. And the others were saying, nope, and were against all of it. But, nonetheless, they come to some conclusion. I know this a silly story, but it's a lesson that I sit here and remember vividly. So, my job was to clean the barn on Saturday's so, we had a pickup truck and shoveling manure into the pickup truck. We were fairly close to town, so they had a dump grounds in town. And, I was to take that manure to the dump grounds. My dad drove the gas truck, as well, for the service station. and, he saw that I had dumped the manure outside the fence of the dump grounds. And, he came back that night and said, "I saw you did not dump that inside the dump grounds, you dumped it outside the fence." I said I did that because I thought I was going to get stuck, it had just rained, so I was afraid I would get stuck. He said, "Well, there is a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things, and you dumped it in the wrong place. You go out and you put it back on the pickup truck, and haul it in the dump grounds and dump it there." So, the next day, I'm out there shoveling that manure for the second time, and I'm swearing and upset, but you know what it's a lesson that I remember sitting here today. Do things the right way. No shortcuts. Brent:And the it's better to do it once right than to do it twice. Sen. Dorgan:I remember that lesson. And I told my dad some decades later. You know what, I didn't like the lesson, but I learned it really well, and have never forgotten it. Brent:Where did you to college again? I know you went to the University of Denver later for graduate school...Sen. Dorgan:I went to the University of North Dakota. It was 365 miles from regent to the University. I worked on cars. My dad had a gas station, so I had a hoist. I would put my car on the hoist and work on it. And I was a big fan of working on cars. And, I did everything to it. I had an old Ford, I put a Mercury grill on it, I cut out with a welder cut out the old grill, and put a mercury grill on it. I put Plymouth continental kit on it.And then, ultimately I drove off the first time to go to college, and I was picked up for speeding on my first trip. And the highway patrolman took me back to his car and he is giving me the ticket. And he looked at my car, and he looked it over, and he said "son, what was that car before you started butchering it?" And I haven't forgotten that either. Brent:You know this is another interesting thing we talk about with people who grew up on farms. When was the first time you drove a vehicle? Probably on the farm when you were a young teenager, right? Sen. Dorgan:Oh, eleven or twelve. Because we had a pickup truck. And, you know, when we are out on the pasture, hauling hay and stuff. I was supposed to be in that pickup truck, doing stuff. But, you just learn really early, I could barely see over the steering wheel. Now, I wasn't off a highway at age twelve. But, my dad always expected me to move the pick up truck just a bit. So, you'd get in, get the shift going and the clutch. Brent:You could drive the tractor down the highway...Sen. Dorgan:We had an old tractor, which we called a co-op tractor, which farmers would know. Somehow, it went much faster than any other tractor. I just remember being in that seat of that co-op tractor, driving down the road and going to beat the band. Brent:So, when you were in college at the University of North Dakota. What did you do in your free time? When you weren't studying, probably working a little bit. What were you doing in your free time? Sen. Dorgan:Well, I worked... I did a lot of jobs when I was in College. I was a bank teller. I sold shoes at J.C. Penny's. I had a lot of part-time jobs. So, that's what I did. I was very interested in athletics. I loved basketball, football, all those things. I didn't play varsity in college. I have always enjoyed athletics as well. Brent: What do you do now in your free time? You technically retired, but I'm sitting here in your office, it doesn't quite look like you've retired. Sen. Dorgan:No, no, I haven't retired. I've been teaching for some years at Georgetown University. I am on 4 boards of directors and boards of advisors on companies. Three of them in California, one in Chicago. I'm writing my fifth book right now, I just submitted the first manuscript to the publisher. I am a Senior Fellow at the bipartisan policy center. I'm doing a lot of things.Brent:It sounds like a lot of work. What are you doing to relax?Sen. Dorgan:Well, I like to work. But, I like to play tennis. I have played tennis all my life. I like to play golf. I like to travel, I just came back from France. I was on a cycling trip. I rode probably about 180 miles in southern France with a bunch of people on a bicycle. So I do a lot of things, and I enjoy it all.Brent:There are a lot of successful businessmen, I don't know why, when you said, "I'm teaching at Georgetown." In my brain, I'm thinking a kid from a town of 300 people in North Dakota is teaching at one of the most prestigious universities in the country, maybe in the world. I mean, I know they come from all over. But, I lived in North Dakota for about 10 years, and I noticed you would look people up, and realize, this guy was born in Bismarck, ND.It's just a strange place because a lot of people look at it as a backwoods state. It's the middle of the country, nobody cares. There are a lot of plains, a lot of farms, it's cold, is that what gives people...Sen. Dorgan:I Don't know. It's really interesting. My career was very unusual politically. I didn't plan on being a politician. I have a masters degree in business, an MBA degree. I thought I would be a businessman all my life. and things happen. So at age 26, I was appointed to fill a vacancy by Governor Guy in a constitutional office, because someone who had just been elected died. And, he chose me. I was as surprised as anybody in North Dakota at age 26.Brent:What were you doing then? That was the North Dakota tax commissioner? That was the position you were in? Sen. Dorgan:That was born of tragedy. The origin of other people's lives can be profoundly affected by tragedy. So, I was in the Aerospace industry, had gone to work in the aerospace industry directly out of graduate school in Colorado. And I came back to a funeral, my grandfather's funeral. And somebody told me you should talk to this guy who just was elected to office in North Dakota. His name was Ed Sjaastad. He had come from a town called Tagus, North Dakota, 80 people. And graduated from Harvard Law School. And, he had just won election to State Tax Commissioner. And, I said no... I'm not... and they said, no he wants to hire a young MBA, go talk to him. I said, but I'm in Denver, I'm in the aerospace industry. But, I did go up and talk to him, and I was so inspired by him. I just thought, man, what an inspiring guy, 36-37 years old. So I decided to go back to North Dakota and work for him. And I did, I worked there a year and a half. And, he was a mentor and a friend, and a boss. And, I walked into his office one morning at 8 o'clock in the morning and found him dead. He had taken his own life. I can't even begin to describe the drama and the trauma. I was 26 years old, and I had lost a friend and mentor. What a great, great tragedy because he was such an extraordinary human. And, so six weeks later. The governor called me down to his office and said I want to appoint you to his unexpired term. I mean, I was the most surprised guy in the world. And so, from that, I ran for office and ran for office again. Ran for the House, and again, and again, and again, six times. Then ran for the Senate again and again and again. And you know, I had a career for many many many decades in North Dakota serving in public office. I was enormously grateful for the opportunity. It was a great privilege. And yet, I came to the end, and then the question is, the next choice is seven years. Run for election this year, win and serve six more. And those seven-year choices become much more difficult because I wanted to do more things. I wanted to, having been in Congress for 30 years, and the Senate for 18 years. I wanted to write more books, which I'm doing, I have written 3 since I left. And, I wanted to teach, I'm teaching at Georgetown University. I wanted to serve on some boards, and so on... So that is kind of a synopsis of how all of this happened. It's like every other piece of the decision tree of life. It's always binary, It's always yes or no. And when you say yes or no, it profoundly changes the branch on that decision tree. And, I have just been very fortunate and have loved everything I've done. Brent:And, you know, your story of tragedy, of your friend. That is kind of where I am right now. That's why we are recording this and speaking with you. Ed Schultz was my friend. He was my mentor. He was a great boss. He took me all over. And, when he unexpectedly passed. A lot, of people, asked me, especially over that time, who is going to carry that mantle. And, I don't think by any means I'm going to carry that mantle. I don't have any intention to be the next Ed Schultz. But I thought I would be doing a disservice if I didn't talk to a lot of people, you were close friends with him, talk to a lot of those people. I thought also, It's something possibly I wanted to do anyway. Which is get the background on people, talk about the issues that affect people, and how things are going. And, I never wanted to step on his toes. Not that I ever think that he would have ever been unhappy with me. He would always be very happy that I want to grow. But I said at the time you know what, that's Ed's thing right now, and we let him do that. And, when this unexpected turn happened, I said, you know what, maybe it's my time to do a little bit of something. And try to do something that would make him proud. So, I thoroughly understand what you were saying there. Sen. Dorgan: Look, all of us suffer loss. It's part of our lives, it just is. And no matter what you're doing or where you are, the question is, not whether you will suffer loss, it's how you will get through it. I remember, my mother was killed in a manslaughter incident in 1986 driving on the streets of Bismarck North Dakota. Coming home from a hospital visit. My daughter died during heart surgery when I was in the Senate. It is unbelievably hard to get through a loss, and some people never do, and some people can.My Mother, and my daughter, and my friend Ed Sjaastad, the fact is they are with me. Their part of my memory bank. I call on them a lot. The key for all of us to understand, life is about success, and it's about failure, it's about building and creating, and losing sometimes. It's always picking yourself up and brushing your hat off and moving straight on ahead and moving forward. Ed Schultz, just to end this part of the discussion, Ed Schultz was such a big personality. And, generous, he would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it. He was a remarkable person. But, because he was such a big personality and a force of personality, all of us who were friends of Ed's, were stunned by the loss of Ed in our lives. He was quite a remarkable guy. Brent:I know, one of the biggest things that people who were close to him say, is we are going to miss that phone call of him saying. "What's going on?" And he didn't always mean that as a what's going on with you. But, he did care, but he also wanted to know what you thought about what was going on. And, that, I always thought, he always cared what everyone else thought. He may not agree with you. But he wanted to absorb that information and have that conversation. Sen. Dorgan:The hallmark of Ed was confidence. He was unbelievably confident, and you could see it, and smell it, and feel it. I've seen Ed come into rooms...Just a quick story. Senator (Debbie) Stabenow and I were going to invite radio talkers from around the country who were, progressive or Democratic talkers to come into our nation's capital and have a discussion together. It never happened before. So Debbie and I brought them in. There were about twenty or thirty of them in this room in the Hart Building. And, I swear to you, Ed took over the room instantly. He gave a little presentation and wow. And there was an agent there and of course, that agent signed Ed to a radio a contract. And that set Ed on a remarkable career, on national radio and national television. It's a remarkable thing.I think it all stems from unbelievable confidence. It's about being a football quarterback, it's about all the things that made Ed Schultz. He was quite remarkable. Brent:I think, even when I sent you an email asking if you would do this. I discussed the confidence he instilled in me. There was no question. I don't think I ever heard him say he didn't know if this is right or not. Not only did he always think he was right, but he also made relatively good decisions. You may disagree with his takes on certain things, but he always did it from the right place. From a place where he could explain to you, this is why I think this way. It wasn't just a blanket statement because I don't feel like arguing it. It was a statement and this is why I feel that way. I always appreciated that so much. Alright, on to books. You have written a couple of books. There was one called Take this Job and Ship it correct? But you also wrote Gridlock and Blowout, which are thrillers, if you will. I think that is the correct description. Why fiction, why did you think that was a thing to get into?Sen. Dorgan:The interesting thing is, I had done two books about economic issues. And, the publisher, a New York publisher, and I had an agent in New York. And, my agent called me and said, how would you like to do a couple of novels? And I said. You know, I've not written fiction before. And he said, How about co-authoring a couple of them? I said I'd be interested in talking about it. So we talked about it, and I decided, you know what, it's something I've not done, it's something I'd like to do. So, I did it. And it was very interesting. I may do it again, we'll see. The book I'm writing now, it's my fifth book, is a book that is a true story. But, who knows, I may go back to fiction. You know, if you wrote fiction, and wrote what was going on today in our country and in Washington D.C. people would say that's way beyond fiction.Brent:And I was going to say. I had wondered about those books. You coming from a policy perspective, and those are about oil and ecological issues. And I thought, maybe, you got involved because this is a way to get those messages out about these important issues that will give people an entertaining read without me beating them over the head with it. Without me feeling like I'm lecturing you about...Sen. Dorgan:Yeah, that is some of it. Absolutely. In fact, I'll tell you the ideas for both books.The idea for the first book, the first novel, came from something I read in the Wall Street Journal. And it was a news story, a small one, about five years before, and it said there is a persistent rumor that either the Chinese or the Russians had put a virus in the American electric grid system that would allow them to turn off the electric grid if we were in a war. The news story just kept talking about persistent rumors, but nobody every verified it. And I just thought, that would be fascinating to write about. How would a foreign power turn off the electric grid system and cause chaos in our country?The other one was a piece I read about, and I had met a guy who did this, Craig Venter, who is a remarkable genius. He did part of the Human Genome project with Dr. Francis Collins and so on. But, he contracted with Exxon and they were working to put microbes in a coal seam under the earth, microbes are bacteria, have them develop a language for bacteria that would say to them, eat your way through the coal seam and leave methane in its wake. So you would actually turn coal into methane underground. And I thought that's fascinating. So that became the idea for the second novel. Brent:I think you are a much better novelist than you think. Because I think that's pretty much how alot of these guys come up with their ideas. I've seen Stephen King wrote 10 o'clock people, or something of that nature is one of his novels. He basically, wrote it because he would drive down the street, and he would see outside of this office everyday smoking cigarettes. And it was all of them at the same time smoking cigarettes, and he came up with this idea of who are these people? So that is the way good fiction works, kind of a what if. I think you are doing a heck of a job there. Sen. Dorgan:On the book about a virus shutting down the electric grid. I have a Russian agent that has the virus that he's stolen, an Iranian secret agent purchase it from him. And then the Iranian secret agents, they hire a drug-addled hacker living in a commune in Amsterdam to begin shutting down the electric grid in America. It's kind of a fanciful story, but it was a fun one to write. Brent:Do you read a lot of, I guess that is the Tom Clancy style novel, is that something you are interested in?Sen. Dorgan:I don't read as much fiction. I read a lot of non-fiction, but I don't read as much fiction. Brent:When you read non-fiction are you reading more biographies?Sen. Dorgan:Yeah, I just finished a book called "Bad Blood in Silicon Valley," about the Theranos Fraud. I mean those are the things I read a lot about. Brent:When you were in your time in public service, or in your professional life, we will use professional outside of personal. What are you most proud of that you have done? Sen. Dorgan:There is a lot. Just a lot of things. In terms of policy, in fact, I'm still working on it today. I helped, I was one of the authors of the Renewable Fuel Standard. We keep putting these steel straws into the planet earth and sucking oil out, which is good, and natural gas and such, and I'm for that. I supported oil and gas development in our state. But, we need to do more than that. Because we can produce fuels from renewable fuels. Which diversify our fuel source. And it also means less carbon into the airshed. So I wrote the Renewable Fuel Standard, the RFS. And we've built a huge ethanol industry and a huge biodiesel industry as a result of it. I helped prompt the start of a wind energy revolution in the country. So, I've done a lot of things I'm really proud of. And some of it is things just dealing with individuals. I got a letter last week from a woman in Devils Lake, ND. And she said, Senator Dorgan, she said, about fifteen years ago, you got involved for my father who had a form of cancer and needed a certain type of treatment, and he was turned down for reimbursement for that treatment. And you got involved with the V.A. and others and got him the treatment he needed. She said, he just died last week, but we got 15 years of life with my dad thanks to you. And, I thought, what a remarkable woman to send me a note 15 years later to say thanks for what you did for my dad. Those are the things that I really care much about. The things you can do for people that make a difference in their lives. Brent:As far as policy goes, is there one thing you wish you could take back?Sen. Dorgan:Oh sure. The vote authorizing George W. Bush to take military action in the Gulf war. Now, the vote required him to do a number of other things, which he did not do. But, when Colin Powell and Dick Cheney and Condoleezza Rice and others were giving us top-secret briefings, day after day after day, they made the case they knew there biological weapons and nuclear weapons and so on that threaten our country. And it turns out they were wrong. And it also turns out, now, that I know, I know for a fact that some of what was told to us in top-secret briefings misrepresented the facts, and some of it deliberately misrepresented the facts. And was told to us by people at the highest levels of government in a way that wasn't just not accurate, but was false. And demonstrably false. And they knew at the time it was demonstrably false. And that really bothers me. Because no one ever really did the investigation that should have been done following that. Brent:Yeah, I was going to bring that up. I feel like many in the far left community had always been saying arrest Bush and Cheney, they're war criminals. And, I know that is not a stretch, some could make that case. But the fact is, is that what you just told me there, that in top-secret briefings, people knowingly misrepresented the facts. I mean there is no recourse, none of those people were punished for that. I mean, with the exception of Colin Powell having to eventually admit, that he lied. Or he says that he was...Sen. Dorgan:He says he was duped. But he was the gold standard as far as I'm concerned. I mean I think Colin Powell is widely respected. And, he went on live television at the United Nations and said, look here is what the Iraqis have. And mobile chemical weapons laboratories, he went right through the whole thing. Turns out, it was all a crock because they were using testimony by a known fabricator from Iraq, who used to drive a taxi cab in Bagdad. He was in the custody of the Germans and the Germans told the Americans "we think he is a fabricator." And yet, they used a substantial amount of that, not just that but more as well, for Colin Powel's presentation. And, it was a devastating thing to do for this country because we got involved in a very long war that cost a lot of lives. It's a war in my judgment that we shouldn't have fought. Brent: Kent Conrad voted against the war in Iraq, correct?Sen. Dorgan:He Did.Brent:Did you guys have conversations about that? I mean, as far as while that vote was coming up... He's a colleague of yours for many many years.Sen. Dorgan:Yea, We seldom ever split our vote on those kinds of things. We split our vote on a Supreme Court nominee at one point, I think on Alito. We split our vote on that as well. The Authorization for the President to use force. And, I just came out in a different place. Had I known, what I know now, I never ever would have voted for it. But, you know, it's too late to correct all those things. I regret casting that vote, I believed in the presentations that were made to members of Congress by people who had very solid reputations, who turned out to not have such solid reputations. Brent:Do you think it's hard for people, lawmakers especially, to admit they were wrong?Sen. Dorgan:Sure... Yeah... And the reason for that is, I think there is a punishment by the voters from time to time, to take a look at somebody, and let's say the person running against this person that changed their mind, says well this is a flip-flopper. They're a weather vein. They change their mind based on how the wind is blowing. And I think people buy that argument so they don't want members of Congress to change their mind. On the other hand, it's really important if members of Congress see new information or have a change of heart, they ought to change their mind. Because I think, the voters want to look at somebody and say, that's somebody I think is authentic. They care about things, researches things, and come out with the right approach. Brent:I was recently having a conversation with a friend of mine about (Senator) Heidi Heitkamp and (Congressman) Kevin Cramer running in the state of North Dakota. Kevin has always been polite to me, Heidi, not so much, but that's neither here nor there. But I had to draw the distinction of the play Hamilton, where I said, I'm not a North Dakota voter anymore, so I can't make this decision. But given the choice between Heidi and Kevin going to the Senate, I would almost give Kevin Cramer that vote. And I will tell you why. I disagree with him wholeheartedly on almost everything, but I feel like he stands for something. He stands for things, and I feel like Heidi is in a position where she is just trying to make voters happy in North Dakota, and so she is kind of everywhere. And she's not helping the Democratic voters at all, and she is not helping her constituents either.I'm not asking you to bag on Heidi, by any means... Sen. Dorgan:Let me tell ya. Look, Heidi is in a state, that is more conservative than it was. And, she's trying to navigate through some difficult circumstances. You can't keep everybody happy. And, if you try, you fail. And she is trying to demonstrate and has done so effectively, to North Dakotans that she is independent. She's not going to just swallow the party line every time they say something. That is contrary to what Kevin Cramer does. Look, Kevin Cramer is fine as far as I'm concerned, but I would never vote for someone who says well whatever Trump wants that fine with me. Especially at a time when Pres. Trump is slapping on lots of tariffs ad-hoc, ad hominem and injuring the price of hogs and soybean and corn. And Kramer says, well that's okay. Whatever Trump wants Trump gets. I would never be in a situation to subscribe to that. I respect your views and I think both people are people of good character, but they believe very different things.So, when I grew up in North Dakota, you would sooner cut off your hand at the wrist then talk about religion. I mean, I went to the little Lutheran Church in Region North Dakota and religion was private. You didn't go talk about your religion, but you went to church and prayed and you went every Sunday because you should, and wanted to. These days, we have people wearing religion on their sleeves. Kevin is one of them and boy, I don't know. I worry about a lot of people that wear religion on their sleeves and use it politically and tell other people what to do with respect to their religious beliefs and so on. Brent: Well, I have this big theory on politics. That, it's basically sport now. The reason people want to use religion, it because its the easiest argument to have with somebody, that "God would be unhappy if you did this." How am I going to argue with that? How do I make an argument against that? Obviously, there are social issues at face, but its almost become just an Evangelical Christians, they're Republicans who don't want to go against God. God is a Republican, clearly, in their mind and I think that's just become part of this larger game that people are playing. There is very little reality in the political spectrum I feel like anymore, especially in the Federal system. Sen. Dorgan: Yeah, but you know, look, I get these things. So a president has his attorney pay $130,000 to a porn star to shut her up, right? Or a Pres. says, I'm gonna separate thousands of kids at the border from their parents and we won't even keep track of where they all came from and so it's going to be hard putting them all back. That's not Christian. These aren't Christian values you're talking about right? So, that's what bothers me. We're kind of in uncharted territory when anybody uses religion as some sort of a test in terms of their own personal view of religion. So, I don't know. The key, I think, politically, for Heidi, and I'm a fan of Heidi's. I think she's authentic. I like her a lot, and I think she is a good Senator and will make a good Senator the next term as well. But, the key is, you can't please everybody, but you chart a course that you think is best for our state and our country and you take the President on when you should. You support him when you think it's reasonable. I understand what Heidi's doing. Support it. Think she's the right choice. So we'll see. The fact is, it's going to be a contested election and probably pretty close. In the end, I think Heidi will win. Brent:Democrats keep talking about this blue wave in 2018, now that we're kind of on the election here. Is that a reality, because I don't see it. Number one, I'll tell you why we have no blue wave. Gerrymandering in the house is out of control Democrats are going to need a big, big push to be able to win in the house and we don't have enough seats in the Senate available to us. I think eight Republicans are up? Eight or ten. I can't think off hand. Sen. Dorgan:I think it's eight. Brent:So, you're looking at the this and there are Democrats out there, I mean, I get the e-mails every day from all kinds of candidates who are basically telling Democrats that they're ready to take this back. Do we have to be realistic here or do the good vibes help to push this forward? Sen. Dorgan:My thought is that there's going to be, I don't know whether it's a blue wave, but there's going to be a wave of people who show up at the polls. Who are pretty incented to try to send Donald Trump a message. The old Claude Pepper, the oldest man in the U.S. House when I showed up there. He used to say, "The Constitution gives the American people this miracle. Every second year, they get to grab the steering wheel. Every second year, the American people grab that steering wheel and decide which way do they steer America. I think given what's happening in the White House more recently, the last couple years, I think they want to do that. Now, I think they wanted to do it with Trump as well. I mean, i think Trump's message was pretty clear. He said things that were disqualifying to me. I mean, he'd stand up on the trail and say, "I support torture." Well, somebody supports torture and my judgment should not be elected? He said, "I think we should consider allowing Japan and the Saudies and South Korea to have nuclear weapons." In my judgment, that just disqualifies him because he doesn't think through these things. Having said all that, the American people elected him and he did get three-million fewer votes than Hillary, but they elected him and they did it because I think they looked at him and went, "you know what? If he goes to the White House, he's going to break some glass and kick some you-know-what and I kind of want to see someone kick them all around." So, I think that's why people voted for him. Brent:I have this theory too. Which is that possibly the country will never be the same after this. I don't mean that in a good way, but I also don't necessarily mean it in a bad way. The way I see it, Trump is doing well enough, and he's appeased his base enough; the people who voted for him. Whether steel and aluminum tariffs, whether they actually do good, it will end up costing us more money in the future. It will end up doing all these issues. That doesn't matter to steelworkers. That doesn't matter to autoworkers. Doesn't matter to them, because all they see is that the President did something for "us." Whether it works or not, they did something for "us:" And they probably won't see a problem in their pocketbook and so I think he's appeased that portion of the base. What I'm concerned about, a little bit, is that they're going to see that. Things don't go too bad for Republicans in 2018. he could get re-elected in 2020, despite indefinite detention of children and despite all the other things he has done. Despite the fact that we're looking at how many different scandals he's been involved in and yet, in 1994, was it? We thought that was the biggest thing that could ever happen to a President of the United States and here we're ignoring the fact that, like you said, he paid off a porn star. Actually, looks like paid off two porn stars. Sen. Dorgan: Probably three. I don't know. Look, you might be right. My own view is that I think he probably won't be re-elected. I want him to keep us out of wars between now and then. I want him to stop doing stuff that would open up ANWR to oil development in Alaska. Stop changing the rules so that you can dump as much methane into the air as you like; and that people won't be able to drink clean water and breathe clean... I'd like him to be somewhat thoughtful about the policies we need. I understand that we have too many regulations; let's get rid of some that aren't worthy, but let's keep some that are really important for human health and other things. So, we'll see. I think it is not enough for Democrats just to be against Trump. Democrats need to have a vision and a set of values about who they're fighting for and what they want America to be in the future; with respect to people who need jobs and people who need health care and so-on. So, we need to do much more than we're now doing as Democrats. Brent:I think you're absolutely right on that, and I think one of the things that; not... I think that social issues are super important. I think they are a thing that affects so many people. However, I also feel like, the majority of Americans are already on board with all of that, and I feel like that's where the Democrats also failed in 2016. They spent a lot of time kind of pushing these social issues, like transgender bathrooms, and all those things. While they were important, no doubt, these people should not be discriminated against; that is not an issue that ninety-nine percent of Americans care about. I think that's certainly a problem. Number one; they didn't talk to working-class Americans. Hillary Clinton, again, I'm not going to "bag" on anybody, but I will say this, is the most qualified candidate to probably ever run for the office. Also, at the same time, not a likable person to the American people. I don't want to say it. I know there's a lot of connotation there. I voted for her. I think, she would have made a great President, but this is a personality contest now and we need to understand that. Sen. Dorgan:I don't disagree with that at all. I think she was not the best candidate in a lot of ways. However she was speaking it wasn't to the people; the guts of people. You know, that message somewhere between the brain and the belly that gives people a sense of, "this is something I care about. This is someone that's going to do something about it." So, I agree with that. I think she... I admire her. I think she's unbelievably talented. Would have made a good President if the Republicans would have allowed her to be a good President, but the fact is, she didn't' do a ... very good... you know, it's almost malpractice not campaign in Wisconsin as a Democrat. Brent: And in Michigan. You're missing out on... there's no situation...Sen. Dorgan: But, having said all that, she still won the election by three-and-a-half million votes, but lost the electoral college. So, she's not President. Brent: We can have that argument. I know a lot of people want to always make that, she won by three-million more votes. That's fine...Sen. Dorgan:... but if she lost the Presidency...Brent: The electoral college; number one, when Bush won in... 2000...Sen. Dorgan:... 2000.Brent: Yeah. We knew that that was an issue. Nobody did anything. Nobody tried to... I don't remember any Senators pushing for a Constitutional amendment to fix the electoral college. We knew that was an issue and we allowed it, because we said, " it probably won't be a problem later. We'll be fine." Sen. Dorgan: It wouldn't have needed to be an issue if Al Gore had selected Bob Graham as his running mate in Florida. He would have won Florida easily. Bob was wildly popular in Florida and there wouldn't have been a recount in Florida. So that's Al Gore's fault. Brent: We can also have the conversation about Tim Kain being chosen as... Tim, great guy. Doesn't move the dial at all. Sen. Dorgan: I like him a lot, and he played the role the campaign gave him, so that wasn't... but I understand your point. Brent: I'm just... in my adult life, it's mostly been Obama-Biden. Two of the most charismatic people to ever be in an administration; and I look at it and I say, Democrats did not realize that they were the ones that won that re-election because of their personality. I mean, their policy was great, but they won it because of their personalities, because of their charisma, because they would speak directly to your heart; and you felt it. I've been in the room while they both of them spoke and I was inspired. We don't do that and that's the problem. You say you don't think Donald Trump would be re-elected in 2020. Well, we're getting close to 2018's election. Who is the leader of the Democratic party right now? Who is the person who you're going to want on that ticket? I mean, it might be Joe Biden, but I think it might be a little late for Joe. Sen. Dorgan: Well, there will be a lot of people running. Gil Garcetti, mayor of Los Angeles, or Delaney the Congress. I bet there will be twelve or fourteen people announced for President. We'll see. I agree with you, I think that there's some political cholesterol blocking the emergence of new leaders, because many of the people, Bernie, and so many others, are in their late seventies in the Democratic leadership; but I think we will see new leaders emerge in the Democratic party. Look, what we need in both political parties... I would like to see strong new leaders in the Republican party come out and eclipse the Trump doctrine of Republicanism, and I'd like to see strong leaders in the Democratic party develop a real agenda for the country. Then, let's see where we go. Given America the choice of what kind of a country they want. Where do they want to head? What do they want to strengthen in this country's future? Brent: You know what I miss? You know what person I miss? This is going to sound weird too. John Boehner. That guy, I felt like he would have stood up to Trump when Trump needed to be stood up to. Sen. Dorgan: Sure we would have, but they threw him out. I mean, John, I mean he quit, but he quit because he couldn't govern his caucus and his caucus wouldn't... Look, I like John a lot. John and his wife and in the old days, my wife and I, we met John and his wife and knew them and liked them. In the old days, people met each other and you had relationships and so on. John Boehner was a good speaker, honestly, but he finally just said, I quit, because I can't get done what I need to get done through this caucus. Brent: I think that's probably what Paul Ryan is facing right now. I don't think Paul Ryan is a man of as much integrity. Sen. Dorgan: He doesn't have the strength that John Boehner had. Not at all. Brent: No. I also think that Paul Ryan has political aspirations and that's why he's doing this, in my head, because either he's eventually going to run for Governor of Wisconsin and then President, or he's just going to try to go straight for President once Trump's done. So, he's going to spend some time with his family. Help raise his kids for a couple of years and then he's going to try and go for higher office. That's my personal opinion, but I think you're right that he doesn't have the strength to control that caucus and he doesn't have that... Sen. Dorgan: Well, the fact was that he had a very strong reputation early on. That reputation has been injured a fair amount, I think, and we'll see what his future is; but I think what's happened is that while he's pushed back a little bit, but the phrase of choice these days is to say, "well, I wouldn't have said it that way," right? That's not enough. I think he's injured his reputation a bit, but he's a young man and we'll see what happens to his future. Brent:How often do you speak with President Clinton? Sen. Dorgan: Um, maybe two/three months ago. He and I talked. Brent: What's is like being friends with a President? Any President really? Sen. Dorgan:Well, we used to golf together. There's a picture of him and I golfing on the wall. He's a really interesting, smart... has a really facile mind. He's an interesting guy. You would, I think most anybody would like to spend some time with him talking. It's kind of like if you like economics, and I like economics, and I've had an opportunity to spend time visiting with Warren Buffett. In fact, on the way in this morning to work, I was thinking about this, because Warren had sent me an e-mail a while back and he said, 'If you get to Omaha anytime soon, call me and we'll have a hamburger.' I was thinking on the way in, I should just go to Omaha and have a hamburger because I haven't seen him for a long while, although we've been exchanging some emails. If you want to know about the economy, you want to talk to Warren Buffett, right? If you want to know about politics; pretty good to talk to Bill Clinton. He's an encyclopedia. Brent: This is a hard turn. Are we beyond the time of the bipartisanship? Are we ever going to be in a position where real bipartisanship exists anymore? Sen. Dorgan: It depends on... if voters can find a way to reward good behavior and punish bad behavior. I think bipartisanship will come back, but we have a circumstance these days where talk radio and cable television admonish those who come to the center to reach a compromise, because the question is, 'do you stand for your values or principles or do you compromise'? If you compromise, it's a dirty word. Compromise is what brings people together from different parties with different views. At the moment, there is not much compromise on anything. It may happen. It may change and I think the voters will have a lot to say about whether it changes. Brent:I've had this theory post Tea Party, I know that things weren't great even during the Clinton Administration. Speaker Gingrich was very standoffish, and there were some issues there. However, they were able, you guys were able to come to a lot of agreement and do things, and it was able to work. But, I've had this theory that following theTea Party movement in 2010. I feel like the Republicans, especially at the time, they embraced this movement because they knew they could get the votes. Which they do a lot. They embrace movements so they the voters. But what they didn't realize is that emboldened those people and then got a lot of Tea Partiers elected. And we got that far-right elected, the Louis Gohmert's of the world. That started to happen because they emboldened those voters. They didn't really fell like they were going to give them the voice that they said they were going to, and then they became members of Congress and started doing that. Sen. Dorgan: Yeah, I think that's right. It's also the case, from my perspective, that Democrats are by and large a party that believes in governance. Believes in the possibilities and the potential of good government. The Republicans are more often than not are a party that has been attacking government, saying government is the problem. You remember Ronald Reagan's speech. Government's not the solution, it's the problem. The fact is, Government is really us. we create it, and we determine who runs it and so on. So, after a couple, two or three decades, of really denigrating government over and over and over again, it's not surprising that people have less confidence in and less affection for their institutions, including government. It's not just government, but government is one of those institutions that has been under attack for a long while. And I think our government is really important. In self-government. You know, a country, the most successful democracy in the history of humankind exists in this country. It's not the only democracy. But it's the longest surviving representative government in world history. It's really important that we nurture that, and take care of it. Because there's no ultimate guarantee that the destiny of our country is to always be what we are. A country, that has substantial liberty and freedom and opportunity, it requires us, as Americans, to take care of and nurture this process called democracy. Brent:Not to be too dire here, but the worry I have is that we're not going to, and we are going to let it fail... Sen. Dorgan: Maybe. Maybe, but sometimes you just avoid an accident at the last minute when you're on the road. You know what I mean? So, clearly, we careen, and we have before, we careen off into different directions and it looks pretty problematic. And then we find a way to create a correction, or a charismatic leader, maybe Republican or Democrat. Maybe a Franklin Delano Roosevelt, or a Teddy Roosevelt, you know, whomever, and brings us back to where we need to be. Brent: I thoroughly agree that there needs to be someone, who will bring us back. And, on the government point, I've had people who said "How can you support the government, when you see so much waste?" I say, "I don't think that it works great right now, but the idea of government is great. The Idea of these things. A collective society, doing things for other people. That works for me."I love it, I love the idea of it. Is there a lot of waste? Sure there is. But nothing is perfect. Sen. Dorgan: Isn't it interesting that when citizens face the greatest difficulties. I'll give you an example. When Houston's under siege in a hurricane that is coming dead center to Houston. And it's gonna cause tens of thousands of people to flee their homes. And, when that passes through. Guess what is the most important element in the recovery? It is the combination of a government saying to them "you're not alone, we're here to help." And then the resilience of the human spirit of people who live there. That combination together is the way you begin to get well from these kinds of devastating circumstances. So, government is really, there are times when government is absolutely essential. And there are times when government goes too far and does things that make you kind of angry. And has rules and regulations that you think are not very smart. But, by and large, I think this country's government has served the country quite well.There is no place like this. We have the strongest economy in the world. I think we're more open and free society with liberty and freedom. This is a really remarkable place. Despite all of our imperfections. And what all of us say day to day about how we wish things were different. The fact is, every second year we get to grab the steering wheel, the American people get to decide. "Where do we head?"And we'll do that, and we do that every couple of years and somehow we find our way out of disappointment. And we find our way towards success. Brent: I'm just going to leave that there. I think that's perfect. Sen. Dorgan: Alright, good well thank you very much. Brent: Did I do OK?Sen. Dorgan: You did great. You have a good affinity for this. Number one you got a great voice, and second I think, having studied with Ed for many years, you know the issues really well. Sen. Dorgan: Thank you. I appreciate that. Like the nervousness of that first call with Byron Dorgan, I was very nervous. Thank you so much.

Former Team Leader Brent Gove Joins eXp Realty from Keller Williams On Today’s episode we have Brent Gove. Brent has been in real estate for about 21 years. He spent 12 years at Remax and 8 years at Keller Williams before transitioning to eXp Realty. Brent’s business is currently in 37 states, and he has over 1,489 brokers and agent associates. In this episode you’ll hear about Brent’s experience with the market crash in California in 2005, how he found himself at eXp, his thoughts on the eXp business model and what’s taking place at eXp Realty. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   In this episode Culture and growth at eXp Other companies in comparison with eXp  The transition to eXp Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Brent to inquire or ask questions. Contact Brent via text at 916-223-5555 Noteworthy “I saw the benefits; webinars that explained how to acquire stock, how to get leads, the five to 10 Cloud classes a day to train my team and then the revenue sharing component. Those four things, I was like wow this is this is shockingly better than I thought it was going to be.” “I am ten times more excited to be at eXp because of what it does.”   SHOW TRANSCRIPTION KEVIN: Welcome to the show Brent. BRENT: Thank you Kevin. KEVIN: Well for people that maybe haven't heard of you before which probably not very many. Can you give a little bit of your background in real estate because I know you and I both were team leaders at Keller Williams but you've done a lot team wise as well. BRENT: Sure yeah. Been in real estate since 1996 or 1997 I can't remember what year it's been about 21 years now and you know start off struggling like everybody else. Then he kind of figured out at the end of your first year in year 2 I did better three I think my fourth year I sold 48 homes. I kind of found my stride. Friend of mine talked me going to Toronto to hear Craig Proctor who at the time was the number one Remax agent in the world up in Toronto which Craig Proctor super conference loved it. Met great people like Jeff Williams and Jay Kinder and Todd Walters and all kinds of wonderful people spent years learning that system and I went from 48 sales a year which I was matched to over 400 sales a year then 169 million in annual volume. And really when you are about leverage and building a team and then of course the market crashed in summer of 05 in California. I remember June I closed on 55 homes in a single month, got paid 55 times in a month which is great. The guy netted about 288.000 net that month so I was a good month financially. But you know we bounced around you know it would go 55 45. You know it might drop five or 10 sales but the next month we closed on 19 Homes we'd never drop like 35 sales and I thought that maybe we were distracted with the Fourth of July and I took the team to Scottsdale go golf and how fine and then the next month 17 and 14. By December we closed nine homes and I had 47 buyers agents working for me and that was our total close volume by December forty nine for forty seven agents. Everybody went bankrupt. Everybody lost their homes their cars. It was brutal. And that happened this summer and fall 2005. So people said oh the market didn't crack until 08, 07 maybe around the country but in California it was 2005. And so from there things got worse. By 2009 it was just I was losing 30 40 50,000 a month for years and by 2009 Keller Williams came knocking on my door. They said hey we'll pay a base of 288 thousand plus bonuses up to half a million come believe Remax be a part of Keller Williams. You can keep running your team to normally do. But that's the only way I would come and I came and it was great experience for me of course Remax said it will be terrible you'll hate Keller Williams and you're making the biggest mistake of their life it didn't matter where I would have gone whether it was Coldwell Banker Century 21 or wherever they would have said it was a terrible idea because I was leaving their team and gone for the opponents right thing. They were wrong though Keller Williams was way better for me not saying they're better than Remax it is better for me personally. They were wrong. Keller was great. I was there for eight years. So 12 years a ReMax eight years. Keller that was my 20 years. Then about a year ago I left Keller and you know I didn't like Keller at that time I loved him. Was never ever ever going to leave Keller Willaims. What could possibly be better than Keller Williams used to run the number one franchise in America. We made more money in 2009 than Austin Texas. Our Roseville Keller Williams is markets and it was number one and profitability for the entire nation. And that was in 2009 and last year I left the company that I loved and I was of the value proposition for eXp was so powerful so amazing I had to leave when I did. Of course Keller Williams like Remax said hey it's a huge mistake you're making a giant mistake don't do it. And bottom line I was leaving their team for the opponents team and they were wrong. My last 16 months here at eXp has been nothing short of miraculous and life changing and unbelievable. So in 45 days I get to retire from real estate. I don't have to list homes anymore. I listed a bunch of homes this week. Presenting three offers now I've sold three to me personally not my team me I'm a very active agent. But in 45 days I get to retire I'll give all my listings to my listing specialist on my buyers and I'll just kind of run the team and keep an eye on it. But it was the eXp that got me to the point where I no longer had to bring in a sixty thousand dollar a month monthly income to keep the lights on you know to pay my home bills and the office bills and the overhead it was 60000 a month. Well because we don't need to govern that money anymore. It's been amazing. And now I'm at eXp and absolutely loving it. KEVIN: You know Brett what's interesting about your comment and I would echo what you said right. I was a team leader at Keller Williams and was there and a big team in St. Louis Missouri and the most common comment is what you just said which is most of us were extremely happy. We were very happy where we were. And it's almost like we were sort of astonished at this value proposition of eXp realty that came by and went Wait a minute. I can't not look at this because I'm a business person. I think you're like decisive like I am right. Driver personalities and I know you dug right into it and you made a decision pretty quick didn't you. BRENT: Ten days but I was fortunate enough when I saw the benefits webinars that explained how to acquire stock, how to get leads the five to 10 Cloud classes a day to train my team and then the revenue sharing component. Those four things I was like wow this is shockingly better than I thought it was going to be and wow I don't have those six ways to acquire stock Keller Williams so I don't have the ownership piece and the revenue share piece and that literally saw a way to earn over a million dollars a year outside which I will do twice that much this year. But outside of real estate sales to make a million dollars a year, I go that is significant. So the benefit I had just dumb luck was the very next week they were doing their annual convention in San Antonio Texas. They're like hey if you're crazy get yourself an airline ticket get out here next week and meet us meet the founder of the company Glenn Sanford. Meet the CEO Jason Guessing. Meet Vicki Bartolomé our president. Come out here and meet us. And I said I'm crazy and I bought three roundtrip airline tickets. Seven hundred each. Because it was last minute was 2100 dollars just for the airfare. Bought tickets to the event it was like 300 400 bucks for each person. I spent like four or five grand to come check out eXp as a Keller Williams agent. I brought my CEO chief operating officer who runs my company and I brought a local independent broker with me. I said look we won't be going to San Antonio if I wasn't excited I won't be paying for all this and do all this I am interested. I'm excited about the opportunity. So I don't want you guys to come here be excited. In fact I want you to come here and be negative. I want you to tear this thing to shreds. If there's a fly in the ointment let's find it. Either this thing passes the mustard test or it doesn't. And we must have interrogated a hundred people over that three days brokers from Colorado or New York or Florida agents that were brand new in Seattle that were brand new in Phoenix. The agents had been doing this for four or five years in different parts of the country six seven eight years and were like really did they do they pay like like they slow pay. They were bounced the commission check. Did they pay revenue share every month. Do they pay late and have they ever bounced the revenue share check and basically it came back roses after three days and so because I was able to see the Webinar, fly to Texas that next week I left Keller Williams. Never thought I'd do it. Loved Keller was a wonderful company. They just don't offer five to 10 training classes a day. They don't have the lead component. We're able to turn on people's phones and deliver 100 to 300 leads a month to their phones that will change an agent's life. The training and the leads are then finally six ways to acquire stock. I have about half a million. After 16 months after past 20 years zero I like my program better. I then find the revenue share to a company that would share revenue because we're cloud based they could do it. Are these other companies cannot copy the model because they are going to pay for these behemoth offices and so the whole cloud based things huge so I think that was a long answer to a short question. KEVIN: You touched on some of the stuff in the answer that I was going to drill down on. So for anybody listening to this you know Brent had this rocket ship ride and if anything it's accelerating even further now. So Brent you join and you were a team leader and granted the timing worked out and it was 10 days but you were a team leader at Keller Willaims before as I'm going to ask you a question that I know the answer to because I was a team leader just like Gene Frederick was for a long time for a guy like Brent Gove and his team to move in 10 days when you were a team leader in a previous franchise system. Did that ever happen? BRENT: No no no it take months sometimes a year or more to get people to move. I know Keller Williams started talking to me in 2001 and it was only in 2009 in the bottom of the worst market correction since the Great Depression were they able to get me to move. It took them nine years to get me to move and eXp the value proposition was so great. Dave and Keller flew me to Texas took me out to steak dinners brought me all kinds of events and the last two years there was a hard push from 08 and through 09 or 07 and 08. So whereas eXp I paid for all my own stuff. I mean eXp didn't even buy me a cup of coffee. The value proposition was so powerful. I was gone in ten days so that we see that all the time. It's irresistible. KEVIN: Well for somebody on the outside that is now because we'll talk about what's going on 16 months later is what's going on now has to be shaking their heads right. If they're in a large franchise system whether they're in one of the big massive market centers or they're in a established Remax operation or even an independent they look around their marketplace and they're seeing massive movement. I mean I talked to somebody the day before yesterday and the comment was we're in San Diego and I've never seen anything like it. Right. Well you know Daniel beer comes over and then they go from like 10 or 15 agents at eXp in that market to 100 in less than a month. So yeah the comic you get on a rare occasion I know you have talked about how many states you have agents in a revenue share now but the comment that sometimes in I'm gonna make this statement people will say well in my market there aren't very many agents. Maybe it won't work here. What do you say to that. BRENT: My gosh escape your market. Here's a cool way I used to live in Chico California college town. And when I finally moved down to Sacramento a suburb of Rosewell my income went from you know I was making I don't know a 150 thousand a year 180 to over 400 thousand a year because I moved to a bigger market. But if you don't want to leave your town which many of you don't. Here's a way by telling people about the eXp you're able to escape your town. I have an agent who joined us up in Anchorage she has 60 listings now there are 60 eXp listings overnight in Anchorage. Talk about an expansion model. Honolulu Hawaii we have that number one Keller Williams luxury agent one of them doing one to five million. She moved the eXp. Now I get paid on wholesales in Honolulu where in 37 states they answer your question. But my first year I thought I think it's a work I got admit I like well it's either going to work or not I'll get me eXp six months. If it doesn't work I'll go back to Keller Williams, they'll take me back. Six months later it had worked beyond my wildest dream. Some people this is your stay at your company. I could have done that. I had the regional owners begged me to stay offer me ownership offer me. What do we have to do to get you to stay. Nothing. I know what Keller Willaims is it's great but he can't offer me this opportunity. I'm going to go try it but I'll be honest with you. Kevin I go six months it's either good work or it's not. And my first year I earned almost half a million in stock over 400000 and I got paid liquid cash over 500000 in rev share. When you combine the two that's 900000 dollars outside of my team I came to the eXp with 18 agents at the end of the year I had 18 agents. They were 100 percent retention. It was funky or weird. Some of them would quit. It's an important distinction to note. We had a 100 percent retention zero attrition because they're all acquiring stock. They're all acquiring revenue share they're getting more leads and they're getting training. They love to have 100 percent there year later. Plus we added five more buyers agents wasn't even trying to do that. So now 23 unbelievable by the way. We just had a star agent in the San Francisco Bay Area Los Gatos just leave Keller Williams. This year he'll do a quarter of a billion in sales. His name is Brett Jennings. Gary Kilar heard about it last week. He said called him up personally said get on a plane come see me in Austin. I've arranged for you to fly out tonight. First class ticket on a red eye. You'll get here tomorrow. Gary spent six hours with Brett and said hey here's what we're doing. It's amazing. Brett Jennings came back and he thought long and hard and that was this weekend and Sunday night he packed up his office with his agents and his staff. There were close to 20 there in Los Gatos this morning in Los Gatos the Silicon Valley the Bay Area. They come in their star who's doing a quarter of a billion. He the number one Keller Williams aged Northern California Hawaii. His office was empty and he Just in ya know some trash cans and desks and tables left in office. They were free. Talk about a mic drop where to go. People already call me he's at eXp. And if you listen this you need to investigate eXp, it's real it's the fastest growing most dynamic real estate company in North America. All the stars are coming. It is exploding I heard what people in the queue. We have ten thousand agents now. When I was here 16 months ago there were fourteen hundred and now we're at 10000. That's not doubling or tripling or quadrupling it's exploding it's it's unbelievable what's happening and we will be at 30 and 40000 agents in the next year or two and then we're going to 80 to 100000. I'll tell you this we're growing internationally across Canada we're going to open up Mexico we're going to open up the Philippines South America, Brazil, Chile Argentina. I'm going to get paid on home sales in South America and South Korea, Japan and China. It's going to happen Coldwell bankers worldwide Remax is world worldwide but we will grow faster and here's why there are 206 countries in the world. There are 25 million real estate agents and brokers and I'm telling ya eXp is going to have a couple million of those 25 million and I plan on having hundreds of thousands a part of my organization. I'm working hard for people. Kevin you're working hard for people. Gene Frederick is working hard. Rob Flixscott and Tracy Lewis there are so many amazing people at this company and it's just exciting to see what's happening. You know I was thrilled to be Kelly Holmes. I am ten times more excited at be eXp because of what it does. People have so much hope they like can't sleep. So excited I can't sleep. And it reminds me of Keller Williams back in the late 90s and they invented something that was better company exploded. They're a great company their a fine company. They just don't have six different stock awards. They don't have the revenue sharing components. They don't have five to 10 classes a day at least at this point that we have access to that eXp does in the cloud and they don't turn on agents phones and have the ability to deliver 100 to 200 300 leads a month through conversion and we're coming up with Cavey care. I think is it Cavey Care, am I saying it right. KEVIN: Cavey Core. BRENT: Victor Core which is like conversion times 10 with the tools it is unbelievable. Buckle up the world is about to see the most dynamic real estate company ever to hit planet earth like a Netflix like a Google like an Amazon. This is a game changer and it's for real. KEVIN: Well some of the stuff you touched on a lot of mega agents and mega mega agents and expansion agents are going to listen to this and I want to make something very clear that you touched on which is you're going to get called to Austin or wherever headquarters is for the franchise system you're in and they're going to offer you the world but don't get confused by waved caps right. If you look at it let's say they wave 200 300000 dollars where the caps for him how much equity you have. Right. BRENT: By the way Brett Jennings has offered four hundred thousand dollars by compass and turned it down. KEVIN: Sure. So you look at the value proposition but what I'm dealing about in the franchise system I want people to hear this pretty clearly they're going to attempt to lure you back with free caps so even if you've got in this case this mega mega team. A quarter of a million three or four hundred thousand dollars in waved caps which is why you're going to go to that's their only lever. Don't get confused with the fact that you are passing equity because here's what they're trying to do. They're looking to do a Silicon Valley play which is if you can keep a key executive off of the playing field so they can't earn equity and they can't earn incentive compensation until the opportunity is gone. They no longer have the incentive to leave. And so if they could keep them out of play for a few years by giving them a free cap he doesn't get to own the equity or the revenue share. So if you're hearing this and you're thinking about doing something we'll talk about due diligence steps here in a minute. Don't ever get confused about why they're doing this. They want you to get to the point where you don't have an opportunity for revenue share you have the opportunity for equity. Brent you said after 16 months what does your equity look like right now. BRENT: Close to half a million in stock. And this year my CO sitting over here will make close to 2 million liquid cash my second year. And if the stock does well who knows I won't go on record right. Definitely have my thoughts on how that stock's going to go. I can tell you this it was three dollars a share when I got in 16 months ago and it's trading at over 12 dollars a share today. You know what I'll trade at tomorrow but that's kind of interesting. What was it before that. Years and years ago it was 13 cents a share and 20 cents a share than a dollar of the two and then three and six then nine now it's 12. Who knows what the future will be maybe to go the other way. But I had 20 years of zero I do want to say this Kevin. When you go back to your broker and go well what do you think this is what I think your broker. And it doesn't matter where you go if it's eXp and you're a ReMax agent you're thinking about going to Coldwell Banker or Coldwell Banker agent and you're thinking about going to Better Homes or you're a better homes agent and you're thinking about going to Keller Williams. It doesn't matter where you're going your brokers even go that's so awesome. You're leaving our company Century 21 and you're going to Better Homes wow we're so excited. That's a that's a great idea. That is not going to happen. They get really negative. Every reason reasonable world why you shouldn't be at Remax why you shouldn't. Go to Coldwell Banker. Why Keller Williams is a huge mistake and Remax did it with me when I went to Keller. They were wrong. Keller was better and then Keller didn't tell me about eXp, passionately told me this was a bad idea and about a listen to him. I wouldn't be making a few million dollars this year. And I wouldn't have all the stock in it so great to see people's lives change. I have many people many many many many people making 5 15 20 25 30 thousand a month Revenue shares. Some of them just a lousy thousand 2000 dollars a month. I know my second month I earned five thousand dollars. Revenue sharing my first month 9800 by my third month I was making ten thousand a month. And by fifth month I was making 25000 a month revenue share outside of sales every single month compared to profit sharing which after eight years I was averaging four hundred a month. And because our office was no longer as profitable and if you're not as crud I'm making 2000 a month congratulations your office is running very profitable right now. I was no longer running the office wasn't in charge of the bottom line and mine had dropped to 400. But to be able a little point where I was knocking down 25000 a month every month like clockwork. Not a year but a month and then go to the point where I was making 40 50 60 and 70 thousand a month every month, not year. You're special. Come on. I mean that you know you do the work you earn the money. I went enroll 24 people in three and a half months. And it just went berserk. Go do that. Just go give it a shot. Learn more about the company but just remember your brokers not going yay that's so cool eXp such a great idea. They will offer you ownership. They will offer you money they will offer you free offices, they will give you 100 percent cap. They will do anything they can they'll offer to fly you to Austin first class and spend six hours with you. If you're a big enough player which is exactly what Gary Keller did personally with Brett Jennings and you know what after that Bret goes wow it's impressive thank you. He's grateful to Keller. But the value proposition is so powerful he had to leave the company he loved like me for eXp and he is excited. And today's his first day eXp there's a big huge empty office at Los Gatos Keller Williams homes and they're in shock that their star left their star agents are leaving the top brokerages nationwide. I'll just tell you this Kevin in Sacramento we pulled the numbers Coldwell banker is losing agents not gaining not for the month but for the year they're down Century 21 went down Remax down Keller Willaims down that number one company losing agents is Keller Williams actually followed by Coldwell bankers, Century 21 to Remax. Now the companies that are growing third place Homes Smarts second place Realty One first place eXp. 16 months ago not a sale today 10 percent market share. One of California's largest metropolitan cities was scratched the 10 percent market share. This year we're probably at a 20 25 percent market share eXp is coming on like a hurricane. Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. KEVIN: You know what's interesting about this Brett. You got the red eye flights into Austin right. We're just talking about one example right Remax all the same thing. But the next card to be played. Mark my word is going to be pressure on the market center owners in the OPs to drop their caps to try and give people incentives to stay. They don't get it. They don't understand the market's been disrupted and all that's going to do and I'm tying this down to your point when you see that if you're at the franchise system where they just cut the caps in half. Brett what would that have done to your Roseville market center if somebody came to you and said you going half what happens to profitability. BRENT: Profitability was already totally hurt. So yeah I mean the way it decimates slopes are going to push back and they're in a tough situation they've got these commercial leases signed on these giant behemoth options that hold two or three hundred agents in some cases 4 5 6 hundred agents they've got 5 10 year commercial leases they're in big trouble. They'll say stuff like Well is it a sustainable model why don't you tell me when the market corrected last time at two thousand five six seven whatever you want to say till 2011 or 12. Who was hurting and people of big offices were hurting. eXp is cloud based. Now we have a joint venture with Regis, we have thousands of locations there are 12 Regis corporate suites in Sacramento. Some are amazing, some aren't as nice. Plus I have my own private office many agents have offices. So if you have an office keep an office just move out of where you are into some business park or corporate suite you'll be surrounded by people who aren't real estate agents or brokers. I mean it's so ironic well I like only the office really are surrounded by agents and brokers at my beautiful office I'm surrounded by a hundred forty professionals. You don't have real say license but they buy and sell real estate. List sell buildings. I mean it's been unbelievable for business, get out of your office and get out into a community and the best way to do that is be cloud based but if you like an office which I do. I have my own office you can afford and you get a pretty three hundred a month to work with your stockbroker your Allstate agent your nations wide insurance agent farmers financial planner a lot of these people have offices they're not even using. Hey can I move for free and you can still have an office environment but eXp doesn't have it. So when times get tough the model that's not sustainable or the old way of doing things just ask Blockbuster. Ask Toys R Us asked Yellow Cab ask the hotel industry that's given their fanny handed to them by air BnB I mean the cloud based technology driven is where it's at. We got here 9 years ago. We've got a nine year headstart they'll be competitors that come in but baby were publicly traded we're we're growing and it's going to be nothing short of amazing so I'm just stoked if can't tell. KEVIN: Oh I'm right there with you. So if somebody is listening to this Let's say I'm a mega mega agent or a capper and I want to do the right thing I need to dive in and do some due diligence. What are the two or three things you think they should do to get the right answer. Before you answer one of the things I'm going let's say this as a caveat and we've done this on every interview is it doesn't matter who introduced you the eXp you'll hear Brent give his contact information at the end. We don't care how you got to introduce the eXp. Everybody is here to get you the right answers if you need to talk to Brett Gene or me or pat Hayes or whomever. We're all here to help regardless of how you were introduced to eXp. So Brent would a two or three things be that you recommend. BRENT: Well number one whoever turned you on eXp they got to this point you owe them a big old fat thank you a hug and kiss on the lips whatever you want but you need to stick with that person that person in my opinion should be your sponsor your rolling sponsor at eXp. The kind of thing where you shop around. If it wasn't for them he would even know about the opportunity. So a) My sponsor was a single mom out of Texas I've never met but I've changed her life. She's I don't know. Last I heard she's making 40000 a month revenue share. That will change a single moms life. And you know she helped me for the first two or three months and we were off running. You know so a we were you always been that should be your sponsor so if you reach out to Pat Hayes or Scott Tracy Lewis or myself or Gene Frederick and you already talking to someone we will love to talk to you and tell you about this amazing company. But whoever turned you on to the company in my opinion that should be your enrolling sponsor. End of story. End of story. I've had nine people ask me to sign them up I'm like nope. Because you've thought about this through somebody else whoever it is you need to go back to them. They need to sponsor you. I don't know that well I didn't know my sponsor either. I met her one time for 60 seconds. Thank God she called me and turned me on to this. I knew I would be interested in the eXp. I mean my gosh what could possibly be better than Keller Williams. In my mind I'll be like your company. I didn't like mine. I loved mine and for this company to do what it did for me. I'm so grateful to her so it doesn't matter whether you know your sponsor but you should call people ask questions get going and if someone tries to recruit you away from ever turned you on to this I highly recommend you not enroll with them because they have no integrity and it's just it turns my stomach. So someone is trying to convince you to go with them over somebody else. They have a massive lack of integrity. MAJOR red flag. I highly recommend you not go with them and you go with the person who turns you on eXp in the first place. Yet owe it to them. So that's my two cents I got off topic on that one a little bit but I just want to cover it. KEVIN: I'm glad you did because for the vast vast majority this is a culture that is not visible to the outside world eXp. I mean we both came from a franchise system that talks about culture and win win and values. I can tell you haven't been and experienced it in that franchise system and here. The culture is amazing from a standpoint of people helping you know it and it doesn't matter if it's me or Jean or you Brent it doesn't matter how you came into the system were here all the way down to the agent in Anchorage you mentioned. Doesn't matter who gets tapped on the shoulder to help the culture of win inside of you eXp is amazing. So before I let you drop off Brent any final thoughts and then I want to get your contact information in case somebody wants to reach out to you. BRENT: You bet. I do want to say one thing about the culture of this company. It is amazing. It's always great people from all the greatest companies coming together. The culture is unreal. Well I'm doing four hundred million a year. I got you know sixty five buyer's agents. Why would I want to do this. Because 16 months ago I only had 18 and I was severed to the market conditions are Sacramento California now. My business is up and up throughout 37 states. I'm diversified and I now have as of today 1489 brokers and agent associates of the eXp that I get to share revenue on and they are thrilled to be here. So my team went from 18 to 14 189 across 37 states and throughout Canada. So I highly recommend you look at this because where we you 16 months ago. I don't know 40 50 agents what you got now 60 maybe that a hundred and look at how powerful this model it's not me it's the value proposition. How powerful eXp is. I hope you come to our next big annual conference which is in New Orleans in October. By the time this goes out we'll have past our shareholders meeting in Las Vegas which happens April 5th and 6th it's probably by the time this hits the open market that a year passed. But we do two events here the next on 22nd 23rd 24th double check the dates in October in New Orleans. It's going to be an absolute hottest ticket in real estate in North America the fastest growing most dynamic real estate company that is changing people's lives like I've never seen eXp come out there. Check us out. Bring people. I did. And I got an unfair advantage and my business exploded because of what I learned from that event. So that's all I've got to say. KEVIN: Fantastic Brent. Somebody who is listening to this. They want to get a hold of you, what's the best contact information for you. BRENT: I'd be happy to answer your questions and send it right back to them and they should be your sponsor. End of story. 916-223-5555 is my cell phone 916-223-5555. Text me not going to give out my email address because I gave up reading email last summer. My staff reads my email. I don't do email. Course I do email but my staff will be the talking to my staff not me. You want to talk to me. Text me. That's how I prefer to communicate. That's what happens when you're 59 and you're a baller. You get to call the shot. So the number is 916 223 5555. Text me your question if you want to talk just text me the words Call me and tell me who you are and where you're from and I'll reach out to you when I get a break. Probably the same day usually within an hour or two just depends on what I've got going so I hope this was helpful Kevin. KEVIN: Absolutely. Thank you for coming on the show. BRENT: All right take care. Bye everybody.

Behind the scenes of how we were able to profitably grow our company without taking on any capital. On this special episode with Brent Coppieters from Russell’s team, they talk about some behind the scenes things that need to be figured out while you are growing and scaling your company. Here are some of the cool things you will hear in this episode: How Brent has figured out how to structure teams with leads to make everything as efficient and smooth as possible. Why they hire Clickfunnels users to work on support teams in Clickfunnels. And why Russell wants everyone near him to max out their tax brackets. So listen here to find out some important behind the scenes things you have to think about when you’re in the process of growing your business. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. I’m here today with Brent Coppieters on the Marketing Secrets podcast. So everyone, I got a really special podcast for you today, I’m so excited for. Right now, where are we at? Brent: Kauai Russell: Kauai, Hawaii. This has been our backyard for the last week, and we’re heading home tomorrow, which is kind of sad. But I wanted to get Brent in here to help you guys out. Because obviously in the Marketing Secrets podcast I talk a lot about the marketing stuff, and Brent has been with me now for over a decade. How long is it actually? Brent: Eleven years at the end of July. Russell: Eleven years, dang that’s crazy. So that’s when you started? Was anyone else here when you first got started officially? Brent: Anyone who’s here now? Russell: Brittany? Was she here? Brent: Brittany came in after. I don’t think anybody else who was here before I started is still here. Russell: So Brent’s been the longest, long term person, except Doral maybe. Doral in Romania. We got a Romanian. Our backlight is kind of lit, it’s hard to see us. Brent’s been around for forever and done tons of different roles. Right now he runs the entire operations of Clickfunnels so I wanted to have him kind of talk about the stuff because it’s a big part of growing and scaling a company that we don’t talk about a lot. But first do you want to talk about your back story, as far as getting into this whole thing. It’s kind of a funny story. Brent: How much back story do you want? Russell: We should move over here to the couch so you can see a little better. So I met Brent at church initially. Do you want a pillow? Brent: Yeah. Russell: That’s how planned these things are. What was one of the first impressions, about this whole business, when you got introduced to it? Because I know a lot of people got through that, especially spouses or friends or potential employees or partners that don’t know this world at all, it’s kind of weird at first. Brent: Yeah, I had no idea. I was at, met Russell through a church function and didn’t really know what he did. When I kind of thought he made money on the internet, I initially thought eBay, he sold stuff on eBay or you know, I had no idea.  I really couldn’t understand. So he had some of the business partners and friends that he kind of worked with at the time and I kind of pulled those guys apart and was kind of asking those guys, “What does he really do?” and one of our mutual friends, he knew that I didn’t understand so I talked to my wife who said, “I don’t know what this Russell Brunson guy’s doing, but it is freaking crazy.” Our friend was sharing the numbers that Russell was doing. He was going to University, I was going to school as well. He was making more money than my parents combined income was, more money than they had ever made. So I was like, I gotta find out what this guy’s doing. So, like any friend, we invited him and wife over for dinner on a Sunday afternoon. So I just started asking him really carefully, “What are you doing? What exactly is this?” And he just kind of started sharing what he was up to, what he was doing. Obviously he doesn’t brag about what he’s doing, the success he was having and he was having tremendous success. After they left, we had a good dinner and visited and then they left. I couldn’t sleep for three days. My head was spinning. Russell: I ruined him. Brent: You did, I was screwed at that point. After that happened I couldn’t fathom the success. But what was more important there was the value he was providing the world. Russell: Was that before or after all our kids, we had twins and they had their first son the week before. I can’t remember if it was before or after. Brent: We had met you before, we’d been friends for a little while. I think that we had our kids and you guys moved right after that. Russell: All I remember is we had our twins we were in the NSU for two weeks basically. So we rented a hotel room in the hospital and just hung out there and goofed off, and I remember he was coming. “Don’t you have to go to work, or what are you doing?” He thought I was going to go… Brent: Yeah, I told my wife, “We gotta take dinners over there or something, we gotta help them because they’re in the hospital with these twins because they can’t leave and he can’t work because he’s in the hospital.” Russell: Little did they know the internet was working. Brent: I had no clue. Russell: So that was fun, so then a little while later, Brent started working for us. Initially it was affiliate management for how many years? You did that for a long time. Brent: Yeah, like 8,9 years, roughly. The hats were always being moved but… Russell: It’s a small company, you do a lot of everything. Brent: Yeah, so probably 8 years to really focus on business development, affiliate management and partners and stuff like that. Russell: And, just so everyone knows, I recently on the podcast had the presentation I gave from Funnel Hacking Live, the One Funnel Away, about the stories, and I talked about Brent in that and it made me cry in the middle of my presentation, it was kind of embarrassing. But you were here for the good and bad. When we went from 5 employees up to 100 and back down to 5 and all the stress up and down. I’m curious, honestly why you didn’t leave when everything collapsed and crashed. Brent: That’s a good question. Russell: I don’t know the answer either. Brent: You’re going to get me vulnerable. Working with an entrepreneur, especially Russell, you know where their heart is and there came a point where he was trying to help too many people. He was employing a lot of friends and family and people that he wanted to provide opportunities for and that was great to a certain point. But there was a point there where the business changed a little bit, evolved and we were needing to make some changes with it. And those changes wouldn’t allow him to support everyone he was supporting. That was very difficult for him. My wife and I, we cared and loved Russell and Collette and their family. We came to a point where I didn’t want to be a burden, I knew he was stressed and worried about taking care of people. I had a conversation with my wife, where I said I would rather keep our friendship, than have him feel stressed about supporting, having an opportunity for me to keep working there. So one day I kind of came into your office, and had a real chat. I probably said some things that, I wanted him to understand how important what he was doing was, and also I wanted him to understand that I was okay to leave. I didn’t want him to feel like he needed to provide for me. I would be fine to figure things out. I just wanted to make sure he was okay. Because it was at the point where you were helping so many people, really one hiccup you could have lost everything. All your savings was going back into the company and at some point you just can’t keep doing that. Russell: Yeah, I got really scared, but somehow we pulled it around. Brent: Pulled it around and obviously you had to make some tough phone calls and decisions that changed the company at that point. Russell: Basically we had to, we had 100 and some odd employees, we had all these wrestlers working for me, we had let go the whole wrestling team. We had to downsize. We shrunk from a 20,000 square foot building to 2000. It was rocky and scary but it gave us the ability to refocus and figure things out. Remember we went on a couple trips where we were trying to figure out who were the people still having success in our market. We jumped in a plane traveling to different people’s offices. We spent time with Ryan Dyson and Perry Belcher, trying to figure out what they were doing. With Alex Chafren, what they were doing. People who were our friends, just kind of used this time to figure out what’s actually working today and how do we shift our business model and change everything. It’s funny how much pain there was during that time. We flew to London. How important it was for the transition for what became Clickfunnels and everything else. Anyway, so many fun stories we could talk about forever. But we don’t have time for all those things. What I want to talk about a little today is, probably a year into the business when we first started growing, it’s funny I got a message today from Alex Chafren, he’s like, “You sound so calm.” Probably because we’re here in Hawaii but he was like, “I don’t know any other person running a hundred million dollar company that’s as relaxed and able to respond to people.” Anyway, when we first started, we didn’t know what we were doing. It was just kind of like, we know how to sell stuff. Started selling Clickfunnels, it started growing and all the sudden all sorts of new headaches came up with that. From a software standpoint with Todd and we brought in Ryan and they had to deal with infrastructure, ups and downs. I think based on ranking we’re the 700th most visited website in the world. But that’s not counting anyone’s custom domains. If you take away custom domains, we’re probably in the top 500 websites in the world. There’s not many humans on earth that have ever dealt with that kind of scaling and infrastructure. Todd had never done it, Ryan had never done it. They’re figuring this stuff along the way and we’re hiring consultants. On the marketing side we’re trying to grow and then all these things and as everything was growing one thing we didn’t have in place was any of the internal company business stuff. We were good sales people, good coders but we had to do that. It was funny because, you’d never had experience with that either though. Brent: Not really, no. Russell: We had this time where internally there were, everything was shaking and we said basically “Brent, we’re going to take you from affiliate management and you’re going to run this role.” And didn’t know what to expect, if it was going to work or not going to work. He was able to step into this thing and turned it really simplified. I’ve had zero stress about that part of the business since you took it over. From that time we went from 20 employees to I don’t even know where we’re at now. Brent: 135 or something. Employees and contractors, we got a few different folks. Russell: Lots of people. So I’d love to talk, first you step in that role and it was probably disorganized and stuff. What were your thoughts? What did you have to go and figure out? What’d you have to learn to be able to turn it into what it is now? Brent: I think the big thing is Russell’s vision for the company. We’d worked together long enough that I knew where he wanted to go. Even inherently just kind of knew. The big thing about Russell is his ability to surround himself with good people. That was the first part, evaluating who we have currently. Are they on the right seat on the bus, is a big part of that too. So we tested different things, and some things worked and some things didn’t work very well. We brought people and we started the phone stuff a little bit with the clickstart program and some of those guys were better than others and we’ve evolved that program. But the big thing about it is obviously support. We had, when you guys initially started hiring support team members, those guys were rock stars, and a lot of those guys are still with us today. They have evolved in their positions in the company because of their commitment and their love of Clickfunnels. I love when I get to interview and talk to people and when those individuals say, “I love Clickfunnels.”  That is the coolest compliment that we can get. When get people that raise their hand, they want to work with us because they love Clickfunnels, they love the mission, they love the ability to help people. I think the biggest challenge was how do we grow with it? Because the marketing side, was growing so fast, it’s important that we’re providing and helping our users and helping them have the best experience possible. Also, Clickfunnels isn’t just some easy push button software. It is easy to use once you understand it, but there’s a lot of different parts of it and understanding marketing is a big part of it. So we needed to bring on people who could understand Clickfunnels, who understood marketing and also understood Russell’s style, the way you were taking everything. Russell: It’s crazy because I think when you took over the role of that, it wasn’t just support but that was a big piece of it, obviously. There’s probably what, a dozen support people at the time? Brent: Yeah, there was probably about 6 to 10. Well, probably 10. Russell: 10 at the time. You found a way to take that….it’s funny because one of the criticism sometimes of Clickfunnels is “Support’s not live all the time. Awebber’s live.” Awebber’s been growing for 20 years. They probably get 4 new signups a day. Clickfunnels right now, it’s been a while since I looked at the stats, but it’s anywhere from 500 to a thousand sign ups a day, every single day. Coming to Clickfunnels and trying to learn this huge platform that runs your entire company. How do we stay in front of that. Our goal eventually is to get to the point where it’s real time support or as close to that as possible. But there’s no one else in our space that’s ever had to deal with that. That have grown companies that fast. Most big companies like Strive don’t have any support at all because they’re like, we can’t therefore we don’t. We still need to have that support and education and stuff like that in place. I think what you did initially, I know that Ryan was a part of this. Ryan Montgomery helped set this up initially too. But just for those that don’t have support teams or maybe have three or four people and are starting to scale something, you kind of broke people into teams. Do you want to talk about some of that initial stuff that you guys did there to make the scaling side of support easier? Brent: Yeah, so we moved over to Intercom, that allowed us to do like live support. It wasn’t right live, but people could submit conversations and we’d respond to them and that’s what we used to start. We’ve grown, our response time, that’s how we kind of gauge our success, our response time. There’s a lot of software companies that offer live support, from 8-5. Ours is essentially turned on 24 hours, we’ve got team members all around the world. When we initially started we actually had an international team and we had more domestic teams, but as we realized, and continued to scale and grow, we had more and more people international. We’ve got international folks on every team. We’ve got domestic folks on every team. So they can kind of work that schedule out as needed. But as we came in we saw the amount of conversations we had, these guys are answering 8-9 thousand conversations a week, our support team. It is crazy. Our billing support is unreal. We’ve got a team of billing support team members and most of them are in our office. We’ve got a few individuals who aren’t. But the big part of it is having leadership being in those positions. So every support team we have has a team lead who is the person we reach out to and help with training and they now can pass the messages and training on to the other team members. Russell: So how many teams do we have right now? Brent: So technical support teams, we have 8 technical support teams.  We have one billing support team. We’ve got one team that focuses on some other different partners we have and worked with in the past. We’ve got a team that helps with our Quickstart program, that’s a program people can signup with and it allows them to get some help on the initial setup and we’ve got a team lead that helps run that team. Russell: The thing that’s cool about this, for any of you guys who are scaling, in fact this is what happened at first when we were scaling. There was one person in charge and had 10 people underneath them and we were trying to grow and everything was growing and that person couldn’t handle any more growth. Because it’s hard to have more than 8 to 10 people you report to. You get bigger than that, it gets stressful and it’s really, really hard. So what Brent did, he came in and said, “Okay, the people we have that are rock stars, make each of those a team lead. And let’s put employees underneath each of those and the team lead can train the employees and make sure they’re doing good. And he’s only got to deal with the 8 or 10 team leads, deal with them and then they are dealing with the individual people. It gives us a communication channel to get through and now he’s not having 90 direct reports back to him. He just has the 8. Another cool thing we did recently, because the other big thing we have and some of you guys will have something similar with your businesses is, there was a competitor that has software that has pages that generate leads. Their software does one thing, there’s one button you can click and that’s it. It’s very, very simple. Clickfunnels is like, we’re building a landing page, your funnel, your shopping cart, your affiliate platform, your auto-responders, there’s 8 thousand things. For us, we can’t just hire someone in Boise, Idaho and be like, “Hey, now you’re a support person for Clickfunnels.” There’s such a learning curve they have to understand to be able to do that. So a couple of things, number one is that most of our hires come from people that are members of our software, which is a big thing for you guys to think through. In inner circle this comes up all the time. Where do I find rock stars? I guarantee the rock star you’re dreaming for is already a customer of your product right now. Look at your internal customer base for your rock stars, because they’re going to know your product, be passionate, they’re going to care more than someone you pull off the street. That’s number one. Number two is we needed, how do we train these people? I think initially each team lead just trained their people, and they were getting bogged down in the training and not being able to support and manage and stuff like that. So we talked about a new team that’s the training team, right? Brent: Well a big part of this that helped, Mark came up and helping work, he does a lot more direct work with the team leads. Russell: You guys know Mark Bangerter, he’s killing it, he’s awesome. Brent: You know he still kind of balances customer education and he helps with support management. So Mark came in and we had the idea, we brought new people on and initially they would slow down the rest of the team. So we pulled another team lead out, we pulled out Andrew Newman, and now his focus is just training. So as we bring new team members on, he’s focusing on those guys. As we look at, he doesn’t have anybody currently to teach, he’s reaching out to people who have been on the team and maybe lack knowledge about Backpack or Actionetics, and then he’s pulling those guys out and he’s doing training with those guys so that we can get everybody up to the same level. Russell: That’s cool. We did something like that back when we had our big call center before the big crash of what year was that? Crash or 08, crash of 09. Because we had 60 sales guys and the problem is the same thing. We’d hire sales guys off the street and someone’s gotta train them, so we had a training team. So every sales guy would come in and go through a two week training with Robbie Summers was the one that managed that and then the ones that were good we’d then put them on the floor under another team. And the ones that sucked, we’d just get rid of them. And that’s kind of the same thought here. Let’s bring people in and have someone who’s dedicated to training them and when they’re ready, then put them on a team so they can start running with it. Everybody’s opposed to pulling people back. It’s just crazy all these, these are all the things we’re learning as we’re growing and scaling. Someday we’re going to write a book about this whole journey and this whole experience, because I think a lot of times companies are built like, there’s a dude with an idea, they hire venture capitalists and bring in a management team, all this stuff and build a company. Whereas with us it was like raw passion and that’s what’s grown this whole thing and kept it afloat. It’s been a fun ride so far. Brent: It’s been an unbelievable ride. Russell: So I appreciate all your work and help and everything you do. Hopefully this gives some of you guys ideas as your growing your support teams or development team or management or whatever those things are. If you look at also, I had someone, it was Andrew Warner from Mixer the other day, he interviewed me, he’s like, “How are you able to write books and run a software company and do coaching and all these different things?” And the same thing is kind of what Brent mentioned earlier, I’ve gotten really good at surrounding myself with amazing people. Where I feel like it’s almost like there’s parts of the company that people are running. You’re running all the operational stuff, I don’t have to worry about that, the hiring and firing, the finding other people. Brent does that. So I just talk to Brent and then all the people stuff is taken care of. Todd and Ryan run the development team, Todd’s running it. I talk to Todd all the time, but it’s just happening and I don’t have to stress about that. I’m kind of running the marketing team. Dave’s running, there’s john, there’s probably 5 or 6 people that I deal with directly inside the company and I’m able to do the parts that I love the most, that I’m the best at. And I think a lot of us entrepreneurs and most of the people in those positions all get profit share and equity in the company and I think one of the big mistakes I made when I first got started was I was so protective, this is my, I wanted so much control over everything that I stifled everything. Whereas when I was able to give up control and bring in rock stars and people that have skill sets that I don’t and now, because they have a stake in the game, I don’t have to worry about everything, every decision, every single thing. I trust Brent. He makes a thousand decisions a day that I never even questioned or think about because I trust him. Same thing with Todd, they know they do that because they’re willing and able to do that. So I think a lot of you guys, if you’re struggling with growth, you don’t have the ideas, you’re not going to bring on venture capitalists and destroy your soul and you want to grow something. The opposite of that is bring on really smart people and give them a stake in the game. It’s kind of like Chet Holmes used to tell me, he said that in his company, everyone was based on a percentage of sales, there was no salary based people. He said what’s cool about that is that big months everyone gets big checks, small months everyone gets small checks but everyone’s in it together. I think that building teams that way is better than bringing in a bunch of money and hiring the right people, or hiring the best people. It’s hiring the right people and giving them incentive to where they can grow and do whatever they want. In fact, I’m going to share one thing. This is cool. Am I allowed to share this, I probably can. This was, we had these accountants, most marketers don’t like accountants, but we had these accountants and every year I’d have to go the accounting meeting and then they would always talk about all the stuff to do to try to lower your, anyway, it was super annoying. It was the worst meeting of my year, I would lose all motivation and momentum for an entire week because I was so stressed out. I remember driving home from one of those so pissed off at the accountants for trying to ruin my happiness in life. And I remember in this podcast, I have to go find it, but I was like, “My goal is I want, not only am I going to max out my tax bracket but I’m going to have everyone I know around me, all my partners, all the people that are pushing this, I want to max out their tax bracket as well.” We were talking about this earlier on this trip here in Hawaii, there’s probably half a dozen people or so on our team now, that have maxed out their tax bracket because of this whole concept that we’re talking about. That is the coolest feeling in the entire world. Brent: It’s pretty awesome. Russell: It’s pretty amazing. So there you go, Uncle Sam, there you go. Anyway, that’s all I got. You have anything else you want to add? Brent: No, I just think, you said unbelievable, it truly is every day. How cool is it to be able to come and work with friends and good people that, it’s just a positive place. Our company culture is a big deal and you drive that and it’s been really fun to see people come into our office or just come into our business, our space and feel that, and even those who just work remote, we’ve got a lot of team members that work remote, most of them are. And it can be kind of a lonely road out there, but we do things to try to help them feel the love. Russell will send swag to people and just unexpected things that make people feel the love and help them know we appreciate them and that’s a big deal. Russell: So here’s a question, for those who may want to join Clickfunnels team, how do they? Brent: We have a link on Clickfunnels, at the bottom of Clickfunnels under Careers, but we’re always looking. If someone out there is passionate, you want to be able to find a place with us, hit me up. You can hit me up on Facebook, email, brent@clickfunnels.com, send me an email. I can direct you where to go, we have application up. Russell: That’s awesome. Thanks man. So that’s a little behind the scenes of how the HR, the growth, the internal stuff, what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. Again, we’re just learning all this stuff along the way. Someday we’re going to write a book about it when it’s all done. Because the lessons we’ve learned along the way have been cool. So hopefully this gave you guys a couple of ideas and things as you’re growing and scaling your teams, and that’s all I got. Thanks everybody. Thanks Brent. Brent: Absolutely. Thanks guys. Russell: Bye.

Behind the scenes of how we were able to profitably grow our company without taking on any capital. On this special episode with Brent Coppieters from Russell’s team, they talk about some behind the scenes things that need to be figured out while you are growing and scaling your company. Here are some of the cool things you will hear in this episode: How Brent has figured out how to structure teams with leads to make everything as efficient and smooth as possible. Why they hire Clickfunnels users to work on support teams in Clickfunnels. And why Russell wants everyone near him to max out their tax brackets. So listen here to find out some important behind the scenes things you have to think about when you’re in the process of growing your business. ---Transcript--- Hey everyone, this is Russell Brunson. I’m here today with Brent Coppieters on the Marketing Secrets podcast. So everyone, I got a really special podcast for you today, I’m so excited for. Right now, where are we at? Brent: Kauai Russell: Kauai, Hawaii. This has been our backyard for the last week, and we’re heading home tomorrow, which is kind of sad. But I wanted to get Brent in here to help you guys out. Because obviously in the Marketing Secrets podcast I talk a lot about the marketing stuff, and Brent has been with me now for over a decade. How long is it actually? Brent: Eleven years at the end of July. Russell: Eleven years, dang that’s crazy. So that’s when you started? Was anyone else here when you first got started officially? Brent: Anyone who’s here now? Russell: Brittany? Was she here? Brent: Brittany came in after. I don’t think anybody else who was here before I started is still here. Russell: So Brent’s been the longest, long term person, except Doral maybe. Doral in Romania. We got a Romanian. Our backlight is kind of lit, it’s hard to see us. Brent’s been around for forever and done tons of different roles. Right now he runs the entire operations of Clickfunnels so I wanted to have him kind of talk about the stuff because it’s a big part of growing and scaling a company that we don’t talk about a lot. But first do you want to talk about your back story, as far as getting into this whole thing. It’s kind of a funny story. Brent: How much back story do you want? Russell: We should move over here to the couch so you can see a little better. So I met Brent at church initially. Do you want a pillow? Brent: Yeah. Russell: That’s how planned these things are. What was one of the first impressions, about this whole business, when you got introduced to it? Because I know a lot of people got through that, especially spouses or friends or potential employees or partners that don’t know this world at all, it’s kind of weird at first. Brent: Yeah, I had no idea. I was at, met Russell through a church function and didn’t really know what he did. When I kind of thought he made money on the internet, I initially thought eBay, he sold stuff on eBay or you know, I had no idea.  I really couldn’t understand. So he had some of the business partners and friends that he kind of worked with at the time and I kind of pulled those guys apart and was kind of asking those guys, “What does he really do?” and one of our mutual friends, he knew that I didn’t understand so I talked to my wife who said, “I don’t know what this Russell Brunson guy’s doing, but it is freaking crazy.” Our friend was sharing the numbers that Russell was doing. He was going to University, I was going to school as well. He was making more money than my parents combined income was, more money than they had ever made. So I was like, I gotta find out what this guy’s doing. So, like any friend, we invited him and wife over for dinner on a Sunday afternoon. So I just started asking him really carefully, “What are you doing? What exactly is this?” And he just kind of started sharing what he was up to, what he was doing. Obviously he doesn’t brag about what he’s doing, the success he was having and he was having tremendous success. After they left, we had a good dinner and visited and then they left. I couldn’t sleep for three days. My head was spinning. Russell: I ruined him. Brent: You did, I was screwed at that point. After that happened I couldn’t fathom the success. But what was more important there was the value he was providing the world. Russell: Was that before or after all our kids, we had twins and they had their first son the week before. I can’t remember if it was before or after. Brent: We had met you before, we’d been friends for a little while. I think that we had our kids and you guys moved right after that. Russell: All I remember is we had our twins we were in the NSU for two weeks basically. So we rented a hotel room in the hospital and just hung out there and goofed off, and I remember he was coming. “Don’t you have to go to work, or what are you doing?” He thought I was going to go… Brent: Yeah, I told my wife, “We gotta take dinners over there or something, we gotta help them because they’re in the hospital with these twins because they can’t leave and he can’t work because he’s in the hospital.” Russell: Little did they know the internet was working. Brent: I had no clue. Russell: So that was fun, so then a little while later, Brent started working for us. Initially it was affiliate management for how many years? You did that for a long time. Brent: Yeah, like 8,9 years, roughly. The hats were always being moved but… Russell: It’s a small company, you do a lot of everything. Brent: Yeah, so probably 8 years to really focus on business development, affiliate management and partners and stuff like that. Russell: And, just so everyone knows, I recently on the podcast had the presentation I gave from Funnel Hacking Live, the One Funnel Away, about the stories, and I talked about Brent in that and it made me cry in the middle of my presentation, it was kind of embarrassing. But you were here for the good and bad. When we went from 5 employees up to 100 and back down to 5 and all the stress up and down. I’m curious, honestly why you didn’t leave when everything collapsed and crashed. Brent: That’s a good question. Russell: I don’t know the answer either. Brent: You’re going to get me vulnerable. Working with an entrepreneur, especially Russell, you know where their heart is and there came a point where he was trying to help too many people. He was employing a lot of friends and family and people that he wanted to provide opportunities for and that was great to a certain point. But there was a point there where the business changed a little bit, evolved and we were needing to make some changes with it. And those changes wouldn’t allow him to support everyone he was supporting. That was very difficult for him. My wife and I, we cared and loved Russell and Collette and their family. We came to a point where I didn’t want to be a burden, I knew he was stressed and worried about taking care of people. I had a conversation with my wife, where I said I would rather keep our friendship, than have him feel stressed about supporting, having an opportunity for me to keep working there. So one day I kind of came into your office, and had a real chat. I probably said some things that, I wanted him to understand how important what he was doing was, and also I wanted him to understand that I was okay to leave. I didn’t want him to feel like he needed to provide for me. I would be fine to figure things out. I just wanted to make sure he was okay. Because it was at the point where you were helping so many people, really one hiccup you could have lost everything. All your savings was going back into the company and at some point you just can’t keep doing that. Russell: Yeah, I got really scared, but somehow we pulled it around. Brent: Pulled it around and obviously you had to make some tough phone calls and decisions that changed the company at that point. Russell: Basically we had to, we had 100 and some odd employees, we had all these wrestlers working for me, we had let go the whole wrestling team. We had to downsize. We shrunk from a 20,000 square foot building to 2000. It was rocky and scary but it gave us the ability to refocus and figure things out. Remember we went on a couple trips where we were trying to figure out who were the people still having success in our market. We jumped in a plane traveling to different people’s offices. We spent time with Ryan Dyson and Perry Belcher, trying to figure out what they were doing. With Alex Chafren, what they were doing. People who were our friends, just kind of used this time to figure out what’s actually working today and how do we shift our business model and change everything. It’s funny how much pain there was during that time. We flew to London. How important it was for the transition for what became Clickfunnels and everything else. Anyway, so many fun stories we could talk about forever. But we don’t have time for all those things. What I want to talk about a little today is, probably a year into the business when we first started growing, it’s funny I got a message today from Alex Chafren, he’s like, “You sound so calm.” Probably because we’re here in Hawaii but he was like, “I don’t know any other person running a hundred million dollar company that’s as relaxed and able to respond to people.” Anyway, when we first started, we didn’t know what we were doing. It was just kind of like, we know how to sell stuff. Started selling Clickfunnels, it started growing and all the sudden all sorts of new headaches came up with that. From a software standpoint with Todd and we brought in Ryan and they had to deal with infrastructure, ups and downs. I think based on ranking we’re the 700th most visited website in the world. But that’s not counting anyone’s custom domains. If you take away custom domains, we’re probably in the top 500 websites in the world. There’s not many humans on earth that have ever dealt with that kind of scaling and infrastructure. Todd had never done it, Ryan had never done it. They’re figuring this stuff along the way and we’re hiring consultants. On the marketing side we’re trying to grow and then all these things and as everything was growing one thing we didn’t have in place was any of the internal company business stuff. We were good sales people, good coders but we had to do that. It was funny because, you’d never had experience with that either though. Brent: Not really, no. Russell: We had this time where internally there were, everything was shaking and we said basically “Brent, we’re going to take you from affiliate management and you’re going to run this role.” And didn’t know what to expect, if it was going to work or not going to work. He was able to step into this thing and turned it really simplified. I’ve had zero stress about that part of the business since you took it over. From that time we went from 20 employees to I don’t even know where we’re at now. Brent: 135 or something. Employees and contractors, we got a few different folks. Russell: Lots of people. So I’d love to talk, first you step in that role and it was probably disorganized and stuff. What were your thoughts? What did you have to go and figure out? What’d you have to learn to be able to turn it into what it is now? Brent: I think the big thing is Russell’s vision for the company. We’d worked together long enough that I knew where he wanted to go. Even inherently just kind of knew. The big thing about Russell is his ability to surround himself with good people. That was the first part, evaluating who we have currently. Are they on the right seat on the bus, is a big part of that too. So we tested different things, and some things worked and some things didn’t work very well. We brought people and we started the phone stuff a little bit with the clickstart program and some of those guys were better than others and we’ve evolved that program. But the big thing about it is obviously support. We had, when you guys initially started hiring support team members, those guys were rock stars, and a lot of those guys are still with us today. They have evolved in their positions in the company because of their commitment and their love of Clickfunnels. I love when I get to interview and talk to people and when those individuals say, “I love Clickfunnels.”  That is the coolest compliment that we can get. When get people that raise their hand, they want to work with us because they love Clickfunnels, they love the mission, they love the ability to help people. I think the biggest challenge was how do we grow with it? Because the marketing side, was growing so fast, it’s important that we’re providing and helping our users and helping them have the best experience possible. Also, Clickfunnels isn’t just some easy push button software. It is easy to use once you understand it, but there’s a lot of different parts of it and understanding marketing is a big part of it. So we needed to bring on people who could understand Clickfunnels, who understood marketing and also understood Russell’s style, the way you were taking everything. Russell: It’s crazy because I think when you took over the role of that, it wasn’t just support but that was a big piece of it, obviously. There’s probably what, a dozen support people at the time? Brent: Yeah, there was probably about 6 to 10. Well, probably 10. Russell: 10 at the time. You found a way to take that….it’s funny because one of the criticism sometimes of Clickfunnels is “Support’s not live all the time. Awebber’s live.” Awebber’s been growing for 20 years. They probably get 4 new signups a day. Clickfunnels right now, it’s been a while since I looked at the stats, but it’s anywhere from 500 to a thousand sign ups a day, every single day. Coming to Clickfunnels and trying to learn this huge platform that runs your entire company. How do we stay in front of that. Our goal eventually is to get to the point where it’s real time support or as close to that as possible. But there’s no one else in our space that’s ever had to deal with that. That have grown companies that fast. Most big companies like Strive don’t have any support at all because they’re like, we can’t therefore we don’t. We still need to have that support and education and stuff like that in place. I think what you did initially, I know that Ryan was a part of this. Ryan Montgomery helped set this up initially too. But just for those that don’t have support teams or maybe have three or four people and are starting to scale something, you kind of broke people into teams. Do you want to talk about some of that initial stuff that you guys did there to make the scaling side of support easier? Brent: Yeah, so we moved over to Intercom, that allowed us to do like live support. It wasn’t right live, but people could submit conversations and we’d respond to them and that’s what we used to start. We’ve grown, our response time, that’s how we kind of gauge our success, our response time. There’s a lot of software companies that offer live support, from 8-5. Ours is essentially turned on 24 hours, we’ve got team members all around the world. When we initially started we actually had an international team and we had more domestic teams, but as we realized, and continued to scale and grow, we had more and more people international. We’ve got international folks on every team. We’ve got domestic folks on every team. So they can kind of work that schedule out as needed. But as we came in we saw the amount of conversations we had, these guys are answering 8-9 thousand conversations a week, our support team. It is crazy. Our billing support is unreal. We’ve got a team of billing support team members and most of them are in our office. We’ve got a few individuals who aren’t. But the big part of it is having leadership being in those positions. So every support team we have has a team lead who is the person we reach out to and help with training and they now can pass the messages and training on to the other team members. Russell: So how many teams do we have right now? Brent: So technical support teams, we have 8 technical support teams.  We have one billing support team. We’ve got one team that focuses on some other different partners we have and worked with in the past. We’ve got a team that helps with our Quickstart program, that’s a program people can signup with and it allows them to get some help on the initial setup and we’ve got a team lead that helps run that team. Russell: The thing that’s cool about this, for any of you guys who are scaling, in fact this is what happened at first when we were scaling. There was one person in charge and had 10 people underneath them and we were trying to grow and everything was growing and that person couldn’t handle any more growth. Because it’s hard to have more than 8 to 10 people you report to. You get bigger than that, it gets stressful and it’s really, really hard. So what Brent did, he came in and said, “Okay, the people we have that are rock stars, make each of those a team lead. And let’s put employees underneath each of those and the team lead can train the employees and make sure they’re doing good. And he’s only got to deal with the 8 or 10 team leads, deal with them and then they are dealing with the individual people. It gives us a communication channel to get through and now he’s not having 90 direct reports back to him. He just has the 8. Another cool thing we did recently, because the other big thing we have and some of you guys will have something similar with your businesses is, there was a competitor that has software that has pages that generate leads. Their software does one thing, there’s one button you can click and that’s it. It’s very, very simple. Clickfunnels is like, we’re building a landing page, your funnel, your shopping cart, your affiliate platform, your auto-responders, there’s 8 thousand things. For us, we can’t just hire someone in Boise, Idaho and be like, “Hey, now you’re a support person for Clickfunnels.” There’s such a learning curve they have to understand to be able to do that. So a couple of things, number one is that most of our hires come from people that are members of our software, which is a big thing for you guys to think through. In inner circle this comes up all the time. Where do I find rock stars? I guarantee the rock star you’re dreaming for is already a customer of your product right now. Look at your internal customer base for your rock stars, because they’re going to know your product, be passionate, they’re going to care more than someone you pull off the street. That’s number one. Number two is we needed, how do we train these people? I think initially each team lead just trained their people, and they were getting bogged down in the training and not being able to support and manage and stuff like that. So we talked about a new team that’s the training team, right? Brent: Well a big part of this that helped, Mark came up and helping work, he does a lot more direct work with the team leads. Russell: You guys know Mark Bangerter, he’s killing it, he’s awesome. Brent: You know he still kind of balances customer education and he helps with support management. So Mark came in and we had the idea, we brought new people on and initially they would slow down the rest of the team. So we pulled another team lead out, we pulled out Andrew Newman, and now his focus is just training. So as we bring new team members on, he’s focusing on those guys. As we look at, he doesn’t have anybody currently to teach, he’s reaching out to people who have been on the team and maybe lack knowledge about Backpack or Actionetics, and then he’s pulling those guys out and he’s doing training with those guys so that we can get everybody up to the same level. Russell: That’s cool. We did something like that back when we had our big call center before the big crash of what year was that? Crash or 08, crash of 09. Because we had 60 sales guys and the problem is the same thing. We’d hire sales guys off the street and someone’s gotta train them, so we had a training team. So every sales guy would come in and go through a two week training with Robbie Summers was the one that managed that and then the ones that were good we’d then put them on the floor under another team. And the ones that sucked, we’d just get rid of them. And that’s kind of the same thought here. Let’s bring people in and have someone who’s dedicated to training them and when they’re ready, then put them on a team so they can start running with it. Everybody’s opposed to pulling people back. It’s just crazy all these, these are all the things we’re learning as we’re growing and scaling. Someday we’re going to write a book about this whole journey and this whole experience, because I think a lot of times companies are built like, there’s a dude with an idea, they hire venture capitalists and bring in a management team, all this stuff and build a company. Whereas with us it was like raw passion and that’s what’s grown this whole thing and kept it afloat. It’s been a fun ride so far. Brent: It’s been an unbelievable ride. Russell: So I appreciate all your work and help and everything you do. Hopefully this gives some of you guys ideas as your growing your support teams or development team or management or whatever those things are. If you look at also, I had someone, it was Andrew Warner from Mixer the other day, he interviewed me, he’s like, “How are you able to write books and run a software company and do coaching and all these different things?” And the same thing is kind of what Brent mentioned earlier, I’ve gotten really good at surrounding myself with amazing people. Where I feel like it’s almost like there’s parts of the company that people are running. You’re running all the operational stuff, I don’t have to worry about that, the hiring and firing, the finding other people. Brent does that. So I just talk to Brent and then all the people stuff is taken care of. Todd and Ryan run the development team, Todd’s running it. I talk to Todd all the time, but it’s just happening and I don’t have to stress about that. I’m kind of running the marketing team. Dave’s running, there’s john, there’s probably 5 or 6 people that I deal with directly inside the company and I’m able to do the parts that I love the most, that I’m the best at. And I think a lot of us entrepreneurs and most of the people in those positions all get profit share and equity in the company and I think one of the big mistakes I made when I first got started was I was so protective, this is my, I wanted so much control over everything that I stifled everything. Whereas when I was able to give up control and bring in rock stars and people that have skill sets that I don’t and now, because they have a stake in the game, I don’t have to worry about everything, every decision, every single thing. I trust Brent. He makes a thousand decisions a day that I never even questioned or think about because I trust him. Same thing with Todd, they know they do that because they’re willing and able to do that. So I think a lot of you guys, if you’re struggling with growth, you don’t have the ideas, you’re not going to bring on venture capitalists and destroy your soul and you want to grow something. The opposite of that is bring on really smart people and give them a stake in the game. It’s kind of like Chet Holmes used to tell me, he said that in his company, everyone was based on a percentage of sales, there was no salary based people. He said what’s cool about that is that big months everyone gets big checks, small months everyone gets small checks but everyone’s in it together. I think that building teams that way is better than bringing in a bunch of money and hiring the right people, or hiring the best people. It’s hiring the right people and giving them incentive to where they can grow and do whatever they want. In fact, I’m going to share one thing. This is cool. Am I allowed to share this, I probably can. This was, we had these accountants, most marketers don’t like accountants, but we had these accountants and every year I’d have to go the accounting meeting and then they would always talk about all the stuff to do to try to lower your, anyway, it was super annoying. It was the worst meeting of my year, I would lose all motivation and momentum for an entire week because I was so stressed out. I remember driving home from one of those so pissed off at the accountants for trying to ruin my happiness in life. And I remember in this podcast, I have to go find it, but I was like, “My goal is I want, not only am I going to max out my tax bracket but I’m going to have everyone I know around me, all my partners, all the people that are pushing this, I want to max out their tax bracket as well.” We were talking about this earlier on this trip here in Hawaii, there’s probably half a dozen people or so on our team now, that have maxed out their tax bracket because of this whole concept that we’re talking about. That is the coolest feeling in the entire world. Brent: It’s pretty awesome. Russell: It’s pretty amazing. So there you go, Uncle Sam, there you go. Anyway, that’s all I got. You have anything else you want to add? Brent: No, I just think, you said unbelievable, it truly is every day. How cool is it to be able to come and work with friends and good people that, it’s just a positive place. Our company culture is a big deal and you drive that and it’s been really fun to see people come into our office or just come into our business, our space and feel that, and even those who just work remote, we’ve got a lot of team members that work remote, most of them are. And it can be kind of a lonely road out there, but we do things to try to help them feel the love. Russell will send swag to people and just unexpected things that make people feel the love and help them know we appreciate them and that’s a big deal. Russell: So here’s a question, for those who may want to join Clickfunnels team, how do they? Brent: We have a link on Clickfunnels, at the bottom of Clickfunnels under Careers, but we’re always looking. If someone out there is passionate, you want to be able to find a place with us, hit me up. You can hit me up on Facebook, email, brent@clickfunnels.com, send me an email. I can direct you where to go, we have application up. Russell: That’s awesome. Thanks man. So that’s a little behind the scenes of how the HR, the growth, the internal stuff, what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. Again, we’re just learning all this stuff along the way. Someday we’re going to write a book about it when it’s all done. Because the lessons we’ve learned along the way have been cool. So hopefully this gave you guys a couple of ideas and things as you’re growing and scaling your teams, and that’s all I got. Thanks everybody. Thanks Brent. Brent: Absolutely. Thanks guys. Russell: Bye.

ERIC WELCH has been delighting the birthday boys and girls of celebrity clients such as Arnold Schwarzenegger, Larry King and Ben Affleck for the last 15 years. When it comes to throwing awesome children's birthday parties for LA's junior well-to-do, Eric's AMAZING KID COMPANY is in a class all by itself. (39:41)     EPISODE NOTES: There are all kinds of businesses in LA that cater to the rich and famous. And when it comes to the business of throwing awesome children’s birthday parties for the junior well-to-do, THE AMAZING KID COMPANY is in a class by itself. For the last 15 years, ERIC WELCH has been delighting the birthday boys and girls of celebrity clients such as Arnold Schwarzenegger, Larry King and, more recently, Ben Affleck. As Eric reveals in THE PARTY GURU, it was difficult in the beginning for him to go to work in the homes of famous actors because, for a long time, he aspired to be a famous actor himself. (Eric had a recurring role as Corky’s bully, Brian Russo, on the ABC series “Life Goes On.”) “To be completely honest, it was a jealousy kind of thing. It was like, you know, here I am kid party entertainer guy going to the celebrity’s house.” But as Eric continued to mastermind more and more birthday parties he began to genuinely embrace his new craft. And, in doing so, he developed a philosophy that guides him and his staff of 21 to this day. Eric says the foundation of that philosophy is, quite simply, love: “It’s looking at a kid in the eyes and really having love for this fellow human being. When you come from the heart, it’s much easier to make their birthday party the best day of their life.” Occasionally, that means showing a little tough love. Some of the kids Eric works with are used to getting whatever they want. “We don’t necessarily give them everything they want. We may be the only people in their lives that tell them ‘no’. But we know how to say ‘no’ in a way that they’re not going to rebel. They’re not going to hate us. That’s because they know that when we say ‘no’ it’s coming from a place of love.” Eric may only see these privileged kids once a year, but he sees them year after year, so he wants his contact with them to make a positive difference in their lives. “Children like this have money and they’re always going to have money, so they’re always going to have some sort of influence. So if that’s the case, I want to have some influence on this person who’s going to have influence.” Because The Amazing Kid Company creates parties for children of all ages, Eric has developed an uncommon ability to communicate with young people. “There’s a key to every kid. It’s just a matter of finding it.” And that includes toddlers who don’t yet have the power of speech. “There are ways to communicate with them without words and you can see God. Or spirit. Or the universe. Whatever you want to call it, you can see where this little person came from. Not just birthday parties is it, Brent?” You got that right, Eric. BP   Many thanks to the composers of the music featured in this episode royalty free through Creative Commons licensing: 1. "Good Times" by Podington Bear - soundofpicture.com 2. "Revved Up" by Adam Selzer - incompetech.com 3. "Curiosity" by Lee Rosevere - leerosevere.bandcamp.com 4. "Kitten" by Podington Bear - soundofpicture.com 5. "Buddy Guy" by Poddington Bear - soundofpicture.com  

Halfway through this episode Brent’s cellphone mysteriously rings, and he gets up and leaves the studio to take the call. This is the first time in three years of podcasting that this has happened. Imagine the scene, if you will; Wes and Spencer are happily chatting as Brent sits uncomfortably, his eyes shifting back and forth nervously. Eric is strangely absent, apparently at “work.” The show’s topic is… I don’t know. Retro gaming? Something like that.Suddenly, Brent’s iPhone rings. He snatches it up and quickly leaves the studio with barely a word. Wes and Spencer are left, mouths agape, unable to comprehend the terrible circumstances that have befallen them.Struggling to keep things going, Wes weakly suggests, “Battletoads was a pretty good game.”“No,” Spencer answers, “no it wasn’t.”You can hear all that on this show. What you can’t hear is the conversation that was so important that Brent had to leave the studio. After all, he left the studio, so the microphones couldn’t pick him up. However, you can read a transcript of that strange conversation. Brent did not know that his call was being routed through an experimental Google Voice transcription engine. The result was donated by an anonymous source to this reporter. Only Brent’s side of the conversation was transcribed, leaving us to wonder at the identity of the caller and the dark words he imparted.BRENT: You’re late, I told you not to call during the show. *pause* No, I- *pause* I know, but it’s hard to keep my cover in tact if- *pause* Right. Well, if you’re done with that, can we get on with it? *pause* It was- it was a rhetorical question. *pause* Look, I don’t like this anymore than you do, but if we’re going to make it out of this alive we have to work together. *pause* All right, that’s what I like to hear! Now all we have to do is- *pause* What do you mean? What’s wrong? *long pause* Damn it! I should’ve known better that to trust you, even with something so ridiculously easy. All you had to do was go to the pet store- *pause* What do you mean, which pet store? Does it matter? The one that has feeder guppies, you idiot! *pause* No, the guppies are the key. This’ll never work without guppies. *pause* What are we gonna do with four hundred brine shrimp? Go back, get the damn guppies, and meet me at the drop point after World of WoW. *pause* Yeah, it just might work after all, and then we can finally get Jimmy the Legs off our case. *pause* Yeah, me too. I’ll see you later… Mr. President. *pause* No, I know you’re not the pres- *pause* Look, I was just kidding. *pause* Okay, you know what? Click. *click*And that’s all the information we have. In order to help us to unravel this terrifying mystery, we are offering a $5000 reward for information leading to the arrest of “Jimmy the Legs,” along with a $10,000 for information pertaining to the identity of the other party to this call.Oh yeah, and there’s a show this week. Or was it last week? I am totally confused. I think it’s about space rats. Enjoy!