Podcast appearances and mentions of kevin well

Arguing with reality in business is a huge waste of time. If you've got clients who are in that head space where they're sort of scared, they're not quite sure what to do next. If you call them and you're in that same head space, then you're not helpful to them. But if you call them with some thoughts or ideas on how you can help them to accomplish the things they want to accomplish, now you have value, and they're going to be happy to talk to you. They're going to want to talk to you because they understand that you may have the solution to some of the problems they're facing. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist, and I ask the question, are you stuck arguing with reality? Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Good to see you, David. Normally, I feel like I'm stuck arguing with virtual reality these days. With Chat GPT or the like. What are we talking about when you say "argue with reality?" David: We touched on this in a previous podcast, and it's a quote that I heard from Byron Katie. She wrote a book called Loving What Is, and she had this quote in there where she said, "Whenever I argue with reality, I lose, but only 100% of the time." And I loved that quote because it just seemed so completely true. Anytime we argue with whatever is actually happening, whatever's going on in the world, whenever we argue with that reality, we lose. And if you go to social media, any social media platform, you will find millions of people, every day, arguing with reality. They'll be talking about things they have no control over, that they wish weren't the case. And you can waste so much life doing this, that I thought it would be good for us to have a conversation about it. Kevin: Well, we talked a little bit about controlling what you can control and accepting what you can't control, so it kind of fits into the same category. And it feels like we tend to resist what's happening, instead of adapting to it. Is that fair to say? David: Yeah. I think a lot of people do that, and not that we're even doing it intentionally. A lot of times we don't even consider this idea of what is reality versus what am I looking at on a day-to-day basis? We tend to go into experiences, whether it's conversations with people, whether it's posting something on social media or replying to someone on social media, doing any of these things, and we just feel like we're having a conversation and we don't necessarily take into consideration what are the things that are just real and true, that I might be arguing against, right? Kevin: Mm-hmm. David: So when people go online, particularly now, and they're on there and they're talking about tariffs and all the terrible things that are going to be happening to their business, I look at that and I'm like, okay, well, the tariffs, that's true. The uncertainty in the market, that's true. Everyone is dealing with that. But if I talk about that without looking for solutions, without looking for the ways to get around those problems, then why am I even doing it? Isn't that not just wasting time, but wasting our lives and other people's lives? Kevin: Mm-hmm. What other ways, you know, we mentioned tariffs, there's plenty of big stuff out there that's happening that affects the business world. But as far as, you know, just getting into the sales process, the business process, what other ways do you find that people argue with reality? David: Ghosting. Sales in general? Cold calling. I mean, every aspect of sales requires us to deal with different aspects of reality every single time. Right? "These people won't call me back." Okay. That may be a reality with those people. Another part of reality though, is that there are people who will call you back. There are prospects who are responsive. There are people who need to buy your products and services right now. All of those things are also true.

Anytime there is any sort of issue in your business that's not quite going the way it should, don't sabotage your sales success. Instead, just ask yourself, is this because the process that I have in place is not working? Or is it because the person who is supposed to be following the process just didn't do it? David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist and will be discussing How Businesses Sabotage their Sales. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Good to see you, David. How you been? David: Been doing great. It's good to see you too. Kevin: Yeah, for sure. I'm excited to talk about this. So, sabotaging sales, what do you mean by that, when you say businesses are sabotaging their sales? David: You know, I had some experiences recently and I'm like, did they intend to do this? Is this what they were trying to do? Did they set out to do this when they were doing it. One of the experiences I had recently was I was going to buy a pair of earbuds, right? And there's a particular brand of earbuds that I like. It's not the ones that would normally leap to mind. It's another one. But a good brand, they work really well. And I got a text from them saying that they were having a sale. And I was like, okay, cool. Maybe I'll buy an extra pair of earbuds even though I don't need them. And so in the link that they sent me, they said, click through and you get 35% off. I'm like, cool. So I click through the link and it takes me to a picture of what I think are the earbuds that they're selling, and it says 20% off, with a certain promo code. And I'm like, okay, well I'm looking for the 35% off, but there was a different promo code in the text, so I'm like, okay, I'll just plug the correct promo code and it'll work. Right? So finally figured out how to do that. No, it said this is not applicable to this particular product. So I'm like, okay. But they had some sort of chat person or chat being or chat AI, I don't know what it was. Kevin: Chat AI agent. Yeah. David: Yeah. Something not quite what I thought it might be, but. I thought, okay, well I'll ask the question. And none of the answers that I got were relevant to what I was asking. And I was like, I'm here. I've got my wallet open. Kevin: I'm ready to buy! David: I want to buy exactly the thing that you sent me a text to, and you're making it hard. Why are you making it so hard? Kevin: Yeah. David: And it replied quickly to a lot of questions and then, it was just like ghosting. It's like, okay, I didn't hear anything back. So I'm like, I'm like, are you AI? And I didn't get an answer. I thought if it was AI, it would at least tell me it was AI. So, I didn't get to order that day. The next day I tried again. I actually reached out to their customer support, had another non-experience there. But eventually I was able to figure out that apparently there were two sets of this earbud in a similar color, and the link took you to the wrong one and applied the wrong link. And so that's why it was saying it was wrong. And I didn't care about the color. I was like, I wouldn't have normally bought this color, but it was 35% off, so I was like... Kevin: Yeah, yeah, whatever. David: Right. Kevin: Earbuds. David: Anyway, long story short is what should have taken three to five minutes and been an exceptional experience took a whole lot longer and diminished my passion for this particular product. So I thought, you know, there are a lot of businesses that do this sort of thing, and the words that leap to my mind is that they're sabotaging their own sales, which is kind of the purpose of this conversation. Not for me to vent, but for us to talk about what businesses can do about it. Kevin: Well, I'm glad you got that off your chest, David. David: Thanks. Kevin: It's probably something you needed to do. David: I feel a lot better. Kevin: Good, good, good. Well,

It's not always easy to get information from clients. If you're in a situation where you have good relationships with your clients, but you're struggling to get the information you need from them, there are very specific things that you can do that will help you to accomplish that a lot faster and a lot more organically. It'll just feel better when you're doing it right, and they'll be a lot more likely to help you with it. David: Hi, and welcome back. In today's episode, co-host Kevin Rosenquist, and I will be discussing getting information out of clients. Welcome back, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, welcome back to you too. I'm really excited to talk about this because let's be honest, like we're all very conscious of the fact that everyone wants our information, so it's a bit of a struggle sometimes. David: Yeah, it really is. And when we're looking at trying to extract information from clients, sometimes it's like trying to pull teeth. Or trying to get the information that we need to either advance the sale or to be able to get an order completed and that sort of thing. And it can definitely be challenging. Kevin: Yeah, no doubt. How much of it do you think is how people ask for the information? Instead of saying like, give me this. Is it better to kind of think about it in more of a storytelling narrative kind of way to pull things out? David: That's a great question. I think a lot of it depends on your personality and the way that you communicate with people. Many salespeople, many of the best salespeople, I think are natural storytellers. You ask them what time it is and it starts with a story. Right? So... Kevin: Well, it all started back when I was eight. David: Let's talk about time, shall we? Kevin: Yeah. David: Yeah, so I think it can take that form. I think there are also situations, a lot of times, where we know what we need to get from them, and sometimes if we're just going for it all the time, that can come across as a little too pushy in some ways. So I think there's a natural give and take that needs to happen, so that people can feel engaged with us. If they feel engaged in the conversation, if they feel that we're listening to them, paying attention to what they need, and that's woven in with getting the next piece of information that I need without coming across like an interrogator. Like I'm going to shine a light on you. It's like the third degree in the cop movies. Right? If it feels like that, they're gone. But when you're able to just engage them and let them know that you care about getting them a result, then they're a lot more likely to be free with the information. Kevin: Obviously at the front end of a sales cycle, it's more basic information and it keeps going, getting more detailed as things go on. Should people change their approach as they go on from first contacting someone to maybe having a warm or even hot lead? David: Definitely, and I think you raised exactly the right point there, which is that it does generally start out more general and then it gets more and more specific as you're getting down to it. Sometimes salespeople will lead with things like, what's your budget? Right? Which is kind of intrusive, right? Kevin: Yeah. That's the one, right? David: You don't need to ask me about my budget if I'm not buying anything from you, right? Kevin: Yeah, yeah. What's your budget? What's your timeline? Right? Isn't that what everybody always says first? David: Yeah. And that's not the kind of thing that generally needs to come first. Initially, what needs to happen is they need to feel some sort of connection. They need to have a clear idea of what you do, how you can help them, and all that sort of thing. So I think a lot of times, in the early stages of a relationship when we're first meeting a prospect, it is information gathering from us, but it's about trying to find out what they need, what they're looking for,

Kevin and Aislinn talk about Wanderstop, the new game from the creator of The Stanley Parable Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:23: What Have We Been Up To 00:11:58: Game News 00:29:07: New Games 00:31:44: Wanderstop 01:15:33: Outro Links Pixelshire Release Date Honeymancer Early Access Release Date Space Sprouts Release Date Dave the Diver “Ichiban’s Holiday” DLC Another Harvest Moon G-Mode Game Cattle Country Optional Combat Funguys Swarm Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Kevin: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Kevin (0:00:34) Aislinn: And my name is Aislinn. (0:00:35) Kevin: And we are here to talk about cottagecore games supposedly that’s a little box. It’s whoo (0:00:40) Aislinn: Woo! (0:00:42) Kevin: I forget about that. Well, I always try to be a bit of a smart alec and adding nonsense there, but whoo (0:00:49) Kevin: Although I’m although I don’t know how much I like wooing at this game. I’m very hesitant about whoo (0:00:50) Aislinn: Woo! It’s cute, I like it. (0:00:56) Aislinn: That’s true, that’s true, you make a good point. (0:00:57) Kevin: I’m kidding. I love I love (0:00:58) Aislinn: Spoilers! (0:01:00) Kevin: We’re here to talk about wander stop the tea shop game by the I forget the actual dead team name the Stanley parable people (0:01:09) Kevin: Brace yourself because anyone who’s familiar Stanley parable knows that means things (0:01:16) Aislinn: I wholeheartedly agree. (0:01:17) Kevin: But (0:01:18) Kevin: Okay, but before we get to those things let’s talk about other things (0:01:23) Kevin: Aisling what’s what’s up? What’s been going on tell me about your sky high life? (0:01:26) Aislinn: Um, I think you already know what’s been going on. (0:01:30) Kevin: You (0:01:31) Aislinn: We’ve been very busy with work and when not working, (0:01:36) Aislinn: I’ve been very busy trying to make as much progress as humanly possible in Wandershop. (0:01:42) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:42) Aislinn: And when I’m not doing that, then I’m doing the usual like dailies on my phone of like (0:01:48) Aislinn: Pokémon Sleep, TCG Pocket. I’m hard into Neko Atsume right now. (0:01:50) Kevin: Uh-huh (0:01:52) Kevin: Okay (0:01:56) Aislinn: It’s just the original, and I want to try and get everything in Neko Atsume as much as possible. (0:01:57) Kevin: Okay, wait, what is that one do tell the name escapes me (0:02:03) Aislinn: It’s a cat collecting game. It’s a cat collecting mobile game, (0:02:07) Aislinn: and it’s literally just cat collection, and it’s so cute. It’s so cute. And there’s a new Neko Atsume (0:02:08) Kevin: oh yes okay i’m familiar with this one yes it is (0:02:14) Aislinn: that came out somewhat recently, so I’m like, I’m not gonna play that until I finish the original. (0:02:20) Aislinn: So that’s what I’ve been doing. And then if I’m not doing any of those, (0:02:22) Kevin: Sure. (0:02:25) Aislinn: that I’m doing a lot of wedding planning. (0:02:26) Aislinn: So that’s pretty much what I’ve been up to, yeah. (0:02:27) Kevin: Ahhh! (0:02:29) Kevin: Has that been on the show? Wait, has that been discussed on the show at all? (0:02:32) Kevin: I don’t, I don’t know if it… (0:02:32) Aislinn: No, it has not been discussed in the show, so. (0:02:34) Kevin: Ahh, okay, how far are we? What’s, uh, what’s our target date here? (0:02:39) Aislinn: Our tar- actually, I have not announced to, like, everyone the target date. (0:02:43) Kevin: Oh! (0:02:45) Aislinn: I’ve been keeping that, like, more on a personal note, but I can tell you June. (0:02:47) Kevin: Okay, well you got a range? (0:02:49) Kevin: Sure. (0:02:50) Kevin: Okay. Okay. Well, sure. Sure. Sure. Yeah. (0:02:52) Aislinn: Yeah, so we’re almost there. (0:02:52) Kevin: Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. Very, um, very, very, uh, impressive dedicated you to to playing your wedding during the, the, the Go Fest this year, or whatever the thing’s called. (0:02:56) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:02:57) Aislinn: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:03:00) Aislinn: Literally, we’re not quite there yet. (0:03:06) Aislinn: It’s, yeah, no, each month that progresses closer and closer. (0:03:08) Kevin: Yes. That’s correct. That’s correct. Very, um, very, very, uh, impressive dedicated you to, to playing your wedding during the, the, the, the Go Fest this year, or whatever the thing’s called. (0:03:09) Aislinn: I’m like more and more just panic, panic, panic. (0:03:22) Aislinn: Well, that wasn’t that wasn’t in the works (0:03:22) Kevin: The, um, all right, but, uh, good stuff. Okay. So let’s see here. Okay. Just, just a side note on that. Have you, uh, I’d play a different kind of cat collecting game. Have you ever heard of the battle cats? (0:03:25) Aislinn: That wasn’t that wasn’t supposed to happen, but it just happened to happen and I was like well (0:03:29) Aislinn: We’re gonna see what happens with that (0:03:46) Aislinn: Um, no, what is that? I’m looking that up right now. (0:03:46) Kevin: Oh, I think I’ve talked to that on the show, but, um, (0:03:52) Kevin: you know, I’m going to tag you an image on the slack. I’m creating the, the live slack thread of me. (0:03:58) Aislinn: Wait, this looks so cute. (0:04:04) Kevin: What are you, you googled it. (0:04:04) Aislinn: I’m looking at it right now. (0:04:05) Aislinn: Yeah, of course I googled it. (0:04:08) Kevin: Okay. Because I was going to show all, but did you see the freaky ones yet? Um, yes, those are legs. Did you see the one with the buff one? That’s the last four legs. (0:04:10) Aislinn: Oh, those are legs. (0:04:19) Aislinn: I have not seen that yet. (0:04:22) Kevin: Yes. They’re kind of cute, but also terrifying. Like it’s, it’s a very cheek cheeky, like comical tone. Um, yeah. Yeah. There you go. There’s good old fish cat. And those are just the basics, right? Like this, it’s a gotcha game. (0:04:30) Aislinn: It’s a it’s a good aesthetic. I like, oh, I found the buff one. I found the buff one. (0:04:40) Kevin: So, and it’s, I think 10 years old now and they actually get a lot of crossovers. They’ve crossed over, they cross over like Hatsune Miku every six years. Um, Street Fighter was one. (0:04:50) Aislinn: Ooh. (0:04:54) Kevin: Um, Konosuba, I think lots of animes. I don’t know. Um, but it’s yeah. And on the best part, the best part about their crossover is you get both ways. You get Hatsune Miku as a playable character and then you get a cat that looks like Hatsune Miku. (0:05:00) Aislinn: You got me with Miku, that’s it. That’s the end-all for me. Miku or boss? That’s it. (0:05:13) Aislinn: Oh my god. That is wonderful. (0:05:14) Kevin: Here, I’ll see if I can find it. Um, I play that one on and off. My brother is a big, um, is a big, uh, (0:05:22) Kevin: battle cats fan more than ISO. Um, uh, but, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s a great one there. I posted a pic. You want to see it. Um, there’s your Hatsune Miku cat. Um, they literally just used the standard cat and put the costume on it. It’s, it’s hilarious. Oh, one of my favorite ones. They did Evangelion. (0:05:34) Aislinn: Oh my god! It’s so cute! It’s so good! (0:05:40) Aislinn: That’s wonderful! (0:05:46) Aislinn: Ooh, that’s sick. That’s really cool. (0:05:50) Kevin: That was a good one, that was a good one. (0:05:54) Kevin: Anyways, so anything else, I’m sorry? (0:05:55) Aislinn: Well, I will be checking out this game. (0:05:58) Aislinn: I will be checking out this game. (0:05:58) Kevin: Oh, it’s free, be warned. (0:06:02) Aislinn: Oh, perfect! That’s all I need. Free is for me. That’s it. (0:06:04) Kevin: There you go. (0:06:04) Aislinn: um that’s pretty much been it I guess actually one one little thing that I can kind of announce (0:06:06) Kevin: Aw, sick, I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Battle Cats. (0:06:08) Kevin: It’s pretty fun. (0:06:10) Kevin: Anything else you’ve been up to? (0:06:19) Aislinn: and we’re really really hoping the best so like you know how I kept saying for today like oh i (0:06:21) Kevin: Yes, to be fair, you’re always busy so that wasn’t out of the ordinary. (0:06:23) Aislinn: have i’m busy earlier in the day and that’s we’re recording at 9 p.m eastern um yeah but it’s more (0:06:33) Aislinn: fun news so hope (0:06:34) Aislinn: we will have a new kitty or two in the household here so that’s what we were doing earlier today so i’m like I i’ve been holding that like i’ve been withholding that just for like a I wanted to get your genuine reaction like first reaction to it so (0:06:42) Kevin: Oh, oh hot off the press (0:06:54) Kevin: Oh (0:06:55) Aislinn: pause cast exclusive (0:06:57) Kevin: Podcast exclusive you heard it first here. Oh, that’s okay. Okay. You said possibly multiple. Well, yeah (0:07:05) Aislinn: yeah we’re just waiting on what I i’m not saying too much just because there’s a lot of logistics which I can tell you about later there’s a lot of logistics that we’re currently figuring out but it should hopefully work out tomorrow question mark. (0:07:11) Kevin: Sure (0:07:14) Kevin: Okay (0:07:15) Kevin: Yeah as (0:07:18) Kevin: You know, well, that’s that’s exciting. I can’t wait to hear and see them and so on but but that’s good (0:07:22) Aislinn: yeah. (0:07:24) Kevin: There should be logistics involved unlike us who a guy just kind of said. Hey, you want a free cat and handed us two kittens? (0:07:26) Aislinn: absolutely. (0:07:33) Kevin: Okay, oh they they are very love yes (0:07:33) Aislinn: but they are loved and that’s all that (0:07:34) Aislinn: matters but otherwise that’s it no not by any means (0:07:40) Kevin: Yeah that and let’s be honest cats are not the hardest to take care of (0:07:44) Kevin: You know that the hard part is cat. No, no such thing as catproofing but bracing for the uncommon storm, but (0:07:52) Aislinn: Yeah, we are definitely bracing here. (0:07:54) Kevin: Oh (0:07:55) Kevin: That’s exciting. I can’t wait to hear more. Um, congratulations. Very very excited about that (0:07:57) Aislinn: Yeah! Thank you! (0:08:00) Aislinn: What about for you? (0:08:01) Kevin: Okay, um (0:08:02) Kevin: so I will (0:08:02) Aislinn: I like your just Chicago man. (0:08:04) Kevin: Yeah, so I I don’t know if I mentioned it on this show, but I started a new job (0:08:12) Kevin: About a month and a half ago started February (0:08:15) Kevin: and (0:08:18) Kevin: I’m hit the ground running. They sent me to a trade show to man a booth (0:08:22) Kevin: and that was (0:08:24) Kevin: I was there all week this past week (0:08:26) Kevin: my feet are dead (0:08:28) Kevin: I’m ready to be chopped off (0:08:30) Kevin: not my first time in Chicago (0:08:32) Kevin: I actually went to that same event (0:08:34) Kevin: two years ago but (0:08:36) Kevin: as an attendee, not an exhibitor (0:08:38) Kevin: so yeah (0:08:38) Aislinn: Uh-huh. (0:08:40) Kevin: my role is partially sales now (0:08:42) Kevin: so I actually have to go up (0:08:44) Kevin: and pitch and talk to people and so on (0:08:46) Kevin: and so forth and try to get leads (0:08:48) Kevin: so that was (0:08:50) Kevin: busy, excited, it was good work (0:08:52) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:08:52) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:08:54) Kevin: Um, I, I, I learned a lot trial by fire, absolutely, but good times. (0:08:58) Kevin: Um, and, and there was other enjoy it. (0:09:00) Kevin: Well, it was, it was like 90% work, but there were some nice dinners. (0:09:05) Kevin: One night we hit a piano bar. (0:09:07) Kevin: That was quite fun. (0:09:08) Aislinn: Ooooh, that’s really cool. (0:09:09) Kevin: Uh, it wasn’t, it wasn’t even, it wasn’t a super classy one. (0:09:12) Kevin: Um, it was very more bar than piano, if that makes sense. (0:09:15) Kevin: But you had the guy up there playing the songs and, and, and you can make requests (0:09:19) Kevin: and there was enough space to dance, which I did. (0:09:21) Kevin: I am a dancing machine. (0:09:22) Aislinn: Bye! (0:09:22) Kevin: fun fact. (0:09:24) Kevin: so yeah so which after a full day of standing and exhibiting wasn’t the best (0:09:30) Kevin: idea of my I pre bled my feet for the next day but but so worth it yeah yeah (0:09:34) Aislinn: Eh, it’s all in good fun. It’s all in good fun! (0:09:37) Kevin: um yeah that was uh that was fun I tried the deep dish that was good weather (0:09:44) Kevin: weather was insane it was it was snowing when I landed and like the next day we (0:09:50) Kevin: We hit 70 degrees and then two days later it hailed. (0:09:50) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:54) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:54) Kevin: It was a roller coaster. (0:09:56) Aislinn: Oh, my. (0:09:56) Kevin: Oh, a life first. I had a hailstone land directly into my mouth. (0:10:02) Kevin: As I said, was that hail and the duke just right in there? (0:10:06) Aislinn: Why do I feel like that’s like such a you thing? (0:10:10) Aislinn: That feels like such a you thing. (0:10:10) Kevin: Yeah, that’s… that’s correct. (0:10:12) Kevin: That is 100% correct. (0:10:16) Aislinn: I’ve never heard that before. That’s amazing. (0:10:18) Kevin: Yeah. (0:10:20) Kevin: Yup. (0:10:20) Aislinn: So it sounds like you had a great time in Chicago. (0:10:24) Kevin: Yeah, it was a lot of work, but it was a legendary time. (0:10:28) Kevin: We’ll be back in two years. Next year there’s a different trade. (0:10:30) Kevin: So actually here, right here in Atlanta, home turf. (0:10:34) Kevin: So at least I don’t have to do the major travel bit, but I’m sure it will be just as busy. (0:10:40) Kevin: But yes, good times were had, success was had by kind of me. (0:10:46) Kevin: Baby salesmen on his training wheels did little salesmen. (0:10:46) Aislinn: I’m sure you did great. (0:10:52) Kevin: Aside from that, obviously (0:10:54) Kevin: not a lot of time for games. I snuck in a few of the regulars. Marvel, Snap, Rivals, Unite, here and there on different occasions and so on. (0:11:00) Kevin: That’s all fine and all. (0:11:04) Kevin: Wander Stop, like you said, trying to squeeze in as much time humanly possible. (0:11:08) Kevin: And not even just because I want to play for the show, because I just want to play more Wander Stop. (0:11:08) Aislinn: No, me too I feel that, which we’ll definitely get into. (0:11:16) Kevin: And also, for the Mario-verse over there on the other show of Rainbow Road Radio, (0:11:22) Kevin: I play (0:11:24) Kevin: I did the same Kingdom. That’s not the little Mexican (0:11:27) Kevin: Kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey good times (0:11:30) Aislinn: Oh, sick. (0:11:31) Kevin: Yes, good. I love you mate. It’s all a replay (0:11:35) Kevin: But super enjoyable. I’m Mexican. What can I say? I’m super biased. They did I did Mario, Mexico (0:11:38) Aislinn: that game in general was just fantastic so i’m glad to hear that too that that section is like (0:11:40) Kevin: I have no complaints. They got him into sombrero (0:11:45) Kevin: It is yeah like (0:11:47) Kevin: What can I say what? (0:11:48) Aislinn: enjoyable for you (0:11:49) Kevin: She’s shocking this revisit to Super Mario Odyssey. Yeah, I’ve determined. It’s a good game (0:11:57) Kevin: Alright. (0:11:58) Kevin: Speaking of good games, I say that with an asterisk, or you have no idea. (0:12:02) Kevin: laughs Let’s talk about some game news. laughs Let’s talk about some announcements and such. (0:12:05) Aislinn: yeah (0:12:07) Kevin: Alright, take us away Ace with our first one. (0:12:09) Aislinn: all right so in game news the first game that I am looking at is pixel shire that’s going to be (0:12:16) Aislinn: releasing on the 8th of may and from what i’m looking at on the steam page it says that it is (0:12:22) Aislinn: an adventure farming sim 2d single player game from the developer capibits and it it really does (0:12:30) Aislinn: seem like a adventure farming sim 2d single player 2d single player game it also has notes about unique (0:12:37) Aislinn: RPG sandbox. (0:12:38) Aislinn: Which mixes Lifesim elements with town building, exploration, and combat. (0:12:46) Aislinn: And you can trade, you can do all the things that are normally in most farming sim games. (0:12:53) Kevin: that’s correct (0:12:55) Kevin: uh… I would (0:12:55) Aislinn: But it looks really cute! (0:12:56) Kevin: okay cs the first of all okay up (0:12:59) Kevin: the name I would imply it’s to be pixel art and it is cute (0:13:02) Kevin: uh… it is a a bit more chibi ask or or eight-bit than say uh… (0:13:05) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:13:08) Kevin: uh… stardew valley (0:13:09) Aislinn: It’s more round. (0:13:09) Kevin: uh… so you know (0:13:11) Kevin: uh… it’s a it’s different flavor (0:13:13) Kevin: uh… but there are some actually notable elements I think in here that (0:13:16) Kevin: they were talking about on first of all like you mentioned (0:13:18) Kevin: uh… sandbox as in (0:13:20) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:23) Aislinn: Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s really, really cool. (0:13:24) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:32) Aislinn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. (0:13:53) Kevin: I would say Animal Crossing New Leaf or Minecraft. (0:13:53) Aislinn: Oh, I didn’t realize that about this game too! That’s awesome! (0:14:08) Aislinn: I agree. Yeah, I like the art style. I like the kind of, I guess you could say animal (0:14:14) Aislinn: crossing aspect, but more so, more generally, the sandbox aspect of being able to, as it (0:14:20) Aislinn: says, re-sculpt the world through terraforming. I think that’s really, really cool. And honestly, (0:14:23) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they they emphasize on the yeah, yeah, so. (0:14:25) Aislinn: any game that has animals that you can raise to, they are so cute in this game. I love (0:14:31) Aislinn: it. So, but it looks, it looks great. Like as someone, as someone has been in a stance (0:14:36) Aislinn: of like being overwhelmed constantly by (0:14:38) Aislinn: farming games. This is this is a farming game. I know. This (0:14:40) Kevin: Welcome, welcome to the show, Eastland. (0:14:45) Aislinn: is one farming game that actually does peak more (0:14:47) Aislinn: interest versus other farming games. So yeah, big props to (0:14:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:14:51) Aislinn: them. Looks really, really cool. (0:14:53) Kevin: I have not facepalmed the one watching the trailer. (0:14:56) Kevin: So good on you. (0:14:58) Kevin: That’s a thumbs up. (0:15:00) Kevin: No, and you know what? (0:15:02) Kevin: I’m, I may jinx it, but I didn’t see any romance in there. (0:15:06) Aislinn: I’m sure there’s romance. There’s no way there’s not. There’s no way there’s not. (0:15:06) Kevin: Free free from the shackles. (0:15:08) Kevin: No, well, either way. (0:15:13) Kevin: Oh, oh, okay. (0:15:15) Kevin: Wait, hold on one second. (0:15:16) Kevin: I just want to say, okay, sorry about that. (0:15:16) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:15:18) Kevin: The jaws theme played as my puppy entered the room. (0:15:21) Aislinn: Oh, no. (0:15:21) Kevin: Um… [laughs] (0:15:23) Kevin: Um… [laughs] (0:15:25) Kevin: Okay. Alright, what’s up next? Do tell me. (0:15:28) Aislinn: All right, so the next game that I’m looking at here is Honeymancer, and it’s coming soon to Early Access. (0:15:36) Aislinn: It’s currently on March 27th. (0:15:38) Aislinn: So, yeah, or actually, yeah, that’s what it seems to look like. March 27th, Early Access, coming soon, and also another Pixel 2D-looking situation, but this is more so the tags are Indie, RPG, Pixel Graphics, Tower Defense 2D, and it looks like this is not really a farming game at all. (0:16:01) Aislinn: And when I first looked at it with the just because of the art style alone, I was like, oh, it’s another far (0:16:06) Aislinn: I’m again, I’m like, oh, wait, no, it’s not. Wait, that’s really cool. And it’s got bees and we love bees here. So (0:16:09) Kevin: Yeah (0:16:12) Kevin: Yeah, all right, so there’s a few few things going on here right first of all the premise of bear wizard (0:16:19) Kevin: That’s pretty strong already right you’re you’re setting its own bear witch excuse me (0:16:25) Kevin: You have a one you’re shooting things in combat (0:16:28) Kevin: You’re fighting off robots invading the forest with other cute neighbor animals (0:16:33) Aislinn: which the robots look so cute by the way I just again the art style I’m just like gosh I love (0:16:35) Kevin: They do (0:16:38) Aislinn: this art style it’s so cute I’m such a sucker for good art styles yeah they do it’s so cute (0:16:40) Kevin: I (0:16:41) Kevin: Yup, it is a it is a very strong art style. Absolutely. I’m again 2d pixel, but it’s a very strong one (0:16:47) Kevin: I like how even the trees kind of look like beehives. It’s a very cute little touch (0:16:53) Kevin: yep (0:16:54) Kevin: there looks like there’s (0:16:57) Kevin: Management of some kind you’re growing flowers for bees making potions. So, you know, there’s elements of cottagecore stuff (0:17:03) Kevin: But it’s not your standard you have grandpa’s farm or whatever on which is fun (0:17:09) Kevin: Special shoutouts to the as they describe it the bee dog. There’s a large bumblebee flying you around. It’s more bee than dog (0:17:17) Kevin: we the the big question which (0:17:20) Kevin: You know, we’ll have to wait is where does it land on the Cody scale of acceptability? (0:17:25) Aislinn: I know, we’ll have to stay tuned to find out, right? (0:17:28) Kevin: Is it is it is it Cheeba fight is it cartoonified enough? (0:17:34) Kevin: But I mean, it’s a pretty big bee. So I think she’s gonna be on (0:17:36) Aislinn: It is a very big B. (0:17:39) Kevin: Bigger than you. So I think I think she’s gonna be on board with this one (0:17:40) Aislinn: It really is. (0:17:44) Kevin: But there are other non giant bees that you are helping raise. So that’s fun (0:17:49) Kevin: You know, it’s hard to tell how deep they’re going into it and unexpected to be (0:17:53) Kevin: You know for on be sim but but it looks good enough. It goes into the bear honey (0:17:59) Aislinn: Yeah, no, it looks it looks really cute. It’s hard to get much information based off of just (0:17:59) Kevin: So yeah (0:18:03) Aislinn: the Steam page, but like it looks generally really cute. We’ll see you soon in early access. (0:18:04) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:06) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:09) Aislinn: If this is your type of gameplay, I think it’s worth checking out because it just the (0:18:09) Kevin: March 27th (0:18:13) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:13) Aislinn: colors alone are like really pretty too. Yeah, I love that. Uh-huh. Yeah, they feel very anime. (0:18:15) Kevin: The colors are very well done (0:18:16) Kevin: I like the expressions on the characters and the little portraits when they’re speaking they get exaggerated in cartoonish. That’s that’s (0:18:24) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s fantastic (0:18:26) Kevin: I’m right because I think that’s probably a big criticism (0:18:30) Kevin: You have a lot of these cottage cores like the this character portraits are somewhat muted a lot of times (0:18:35) Kevin: I would say this one’s going for the anime eyes and everything (0:18:39) Aislinn: Yeah, I like it. I really do like it (0:18:39) Kevin: It’s great. I have one big criticism against it though (0:18:45) Kevin: And it’s nothing the game itself done, but unfortunately the title of honeymancer actually (0:18:45) Aislinn: Oh, okay (0:18:52) Kevin: I think it’s honey wizard has already been claimed by Winnie the Pooh in the Lorkana (0:18:57) Kevin: Card game have you okay? I posted it in the thread if you’ll take a look Aislin (0:19:01) Aislinn: Let me see. (0:19:02) Kevin: Lorkana the Disney TCG came out with a card called Winnie the Pooh honey wizard and (0:19:03) Aislinn: Oh my gosh, I’ve never, (0:19:07) Aislinn: I’ve never seen Winnie the Pooh look so magical. (0:19:09) Kevin: It’s pretty amazing. It’s (0:19:12) Kevin: Possibly the best card. They’ve ever come out with and so (0:19:15) Kevin: you know you do a lot of great things honeyman sir, but (0:19:16) Aislinn: Was that a pun? (0:19:20) Kevin: You got a tall tall bar or tall bear. I guess to cross to overcome there (0:19:24) Aislinn: What was that a pun though? Is that possibly you get it the pun because you said possibly possibly (0:19:28) Kevin: Do what oh (0:19:31) Kevin: Yes, yes (0:19:35) Kevin: Okay, I guess all right there all right beautiful (0:19:37) Aislinn: We got it we got we got there one way or another we got there (0:19:39) Kevin: I like this shot of the raccoon screaming in the trailer just eyes fisheyes in different directions with full vertical mouth. It’s great (0:19:52) Kevin: Yeah, all right (0:19:55) Kevin: What a speaking of moods. What do we actually I do have a mood. I don’t know what’s next. What’s next? (0:19:58) Aislinn: The next game is the next game is Space Sprouts, an exploration puzzle physics simulation 2D (0:20:01) Kevin: No, it’s (0:20:09) Aislinn: game are the tags, and it does primarily look like it’s a puzzle game where you bend the (0:20:17) Aislinn: rule of physics, experiment with unusual gadgets, and toss everything around. (0:20:23) Aislinn: I think out of the three games that we discussed so far, I think this game feels mostly up (0:20:28) Aislinn: because I’m always down for a good puzzle game, and the fact that there is physics in this too (0:20:31) Kevin: Uh huh. Yeah, in a good way. Yeah, that that that is a very specific alliterative title (0:20:33) Aislinn: really also intrigues me. It looks like it also kind of infuriates me, but I’m kind of, (0:20:38) Aislinn: oh perfect, cozy cosmic chaos feels like the perfect description for this game. (0:20:47) Kevin: and it works. Right, so space is the key thing right here, right? We’re not we’re managing (0:20:52) Kevin: a space station. And so you’re going to have gravity physics and light bending and all (0:20:56) Kevin: sorts of nonsense. There’s all in the trailer, you see the water floating around, you have (0:21:01) Kevin: a push it or whatever. So expect space shenanigans. Um, that sounds kind of cute. Like a very muted (0:21:09) Kevin: storybook looking design for these characters. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it is a very nice looking (0:21:12) Aislinn: Yeah, I like the colors. (0:21:15) Aislinn: I’m all about the colors of all of these games so far. (0:21:18) Aislinn: All of these games look really, really nice. (0:21:21) Kevin: game. Demo out now if you are curious and full release date in just a little over a (0:21:28) Kevin: for a week on March 31st. (0:21:30) Aislinn: Almost there! (0:21:32) Kevin: Yup, so, uh, good on you space sprouts. (0:21:35) Kevin: Um, yeah, I’m sure some people hint, hint on the show. (0:21:39) Kevin: Might like, I don’t, I, I have no idea who, but I feel like somebody (0:21:42) Aislinn: I mean, I like it, I’m interested in it. (0:21:43) Kevin: on the show will want to play. (0:21:48) Kevin: Well, oh, there we, okay. (0:21:49) Kevin: That’s one down. (0:21:50) Kevin: Let’s, let’s get another, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll see. (0:21:53) Aislinn: I might be infuriated, I don’t know, but I’m also like, it’s a good type of infuriating (0:21:57) Kevin: Well, yeah, and that’s fine. (0:21:57) Aislinn: and that’s what this game looks like, so I’m into it. (0:22:01) Kevin: I’ve had the bad period on the show many, many times, possibly more than not. (0:22:07) Aislinn: It’d really be that way. (0:22:11) Kevin: All right, next up. (0:22:12) Kevin: Ooh, this is a good one. (0:22:14) Aislinn: You take the floor. (0:22:14) Kevin: I think they’d announced it. (0:22:16) Kevin: Yeah, I think they announced it during the game awards or no. (0:22:20) Kevin: Was that the jungle DLC? (0:22:21) Kevin: I feel like this was announced at some point, but if not, we got a full, (0:22:25) Kevin: uh, a more proper breakdown of Dave, the diver DLC can’t. (0:22:31) Kevin: Stop won’t stop. (0:22:32) Kevin: I mean, I mean, they’re made by the maple story desk, so they have (0:22:35) Kevin: the money to actually never stop. (0:22:37) Aislinn: Just keep going. (0:22:37) Kevin: Um, yeah, basically. (0:22:41) Kevin: Um, and so it is a, not that it is the second, um, crossover DLC this time (0:22:46) Kevin: with the like a dragon series, AKA previously known as the Yakuza series. (0:22:51) Kevin: Um, you are teaming up with itchy bond, um, and doing all sorts of shenanigans. (0:22:57) Kevin: Are you familiar with like a dragon at all? (0:22:59) Aislinn: I am like not I’ve never played the games, but like I am familiar and I remember when I heard about this (0:23:05) Aislinn: Because I heard about this like a while ago. I don’t remember how long it was long ago. It was but I was like, what? (0:23:10) Kevin: Yeah (0:23:10) Aislinn: I was like, how did the two these two worlds collide? I need to know how these two worlds collided. This is so cool (0:23:15) Kevin: Well (0:23:19) Kevin: It is and at the same time that feels appropriate for both franchises how on earth did this happen (0:23:25) Kevin: Um, I have never played one myself, but I am also familiar very familiar with the series (0:23:30) Kevin: so introduced we have (0:23:33) Kevin: Included in all these features. We have a genuine 2d beat ’em up side scroller where you can play as Ichiban and (0:23:41) Kevin: Cobra yeah, I think it plays Cobra Wow Oh Cobra’s playable. I didn’t catch that. That’s so cool (0:23:47) Kevin: There is a karaoke minigame because if nothing else what if that was included how could this be called like a dragon? (0:23:56) Kevin: We have let’s see what else here (0:23:59) Kevin: We’ve got we got several characters from the like a dragon series as staff members for your restaurant. It’s fun (0:24:07) Aislinn: I like that there seems to be the karaoke minigame. I feel like that fear feels very, like, Yakuza-esque. (0:24:08) Kevin: Ah, junk. (0:24:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:24:15) Kevin: Oh, yeah, it is. (0:24:17) Kevin: Um, yeah, that land that launches, uh, April 10th, not terribly far away, about two weeks away. (0:24:26) Kevin: Um, so there, there will probably be a return to David diver sometime in the future. (0:24:32) Kevin: Uh, because I’m playing this. (0:24:34) Kevin: Absolutely. (0:24:36) Kevin: Um, that looks great. (0:24:36) Aislinn: It looks great, it really does look great. (0:24:40) Kevin: So I keep an eye out and then the jungle DLC is still being worked on and coming in the future. (0:24:45) Kevin: So again, can’t stop, won’t stop. (0:24:49) Kevin: Um, Dave keeps diving and doing everyone’s work. (0:24:52) Kevin: Um, all right, let’s see next up. (0:24:55) Kevin: Another series that has not yet stopped as of now. (0:24:58) Kevin: Uh, we’ve got story of seasons or I guess this one is like harvest moon proper because it’s, it’s in Japanese as of now, um, a harvest moon G mode game. (0:25:10) Kevin: Um, it, it is a port of a phone game from, what was it like 2008, I think on the harvest moon series. (0:25:16) Aislinn: Yes, it says 2008 on the Steam page, and yeah, it’s a port coming to Steam, but… (0:25:21) Kevin: Yup. (0:25:22) Kevin: Yup. (0:25:23) Kevin: So it’s a early mobile farming game and you know, that’s, that’s cool. (0:25:27) Kevin: You can see it, you can feel it kind of GBA S graphics, um, which is fun and cute. (0:25:34) Kevin: Um, you know, too bad it’s all in Japanese. (0:25:36) Aislinn: I, you know, cause I’ve been telling myself for the past like couple weeks, like I really (0:25:36) Kevin: So, this one I won’t be playing, probably. (0:25:45) Aislinn: should actively get back into learning Japanese. Cause I was learning Japanese at one point (0:25:50) Aislinn: when I was in like first grade and then I fell off cause I was a stubborn kid, long (0:25:54) Kevin: Hmm. Okay. (laughs) (0:25:55) Aislinn: story short, but like, I don’t know. Maybe if I get back into actually learning properly, (0:26:00) Aislinn: maybe I’ll pick up this game. It looks cute, but I don’t know anything about it because (0:26:02) Kevin: yeah it does (0:26:06) Kevin: yeah we can’t read a thing on it we just (0:26:10) Kevin: it’s all I can do is point and says that looks like a harvest moon game for a (0:26:14) Aislinn: I was like, “That’s a cow! That’s chicken! That’s all I’ve got!” (0:26:14) Kevin: phone (0:26:18) Kevin: there are anime pretty people that you can probably romance (0:26:22) Kevin: yeah uh… (0:26:24) Kevin: but uh… (0:26:26) Kevin: yeah uh… releasing on steam do we have a date for that (0:26:29) Kevin: And it’s coming soon. Yeah. (0:26:30) Aislinn: As of now, we do not have a date, but regardless, if you are interested in this and you can (0:26:33) Kevin: But yeah, we, yeah. (0:26:36) Aislinn: read Japanese, even if you can’t read Japanese and you are interested in it, it is coming soon! (0:26:41) Kevin: Oh man, go back to those early 2000s when you have the fan translation from GameFacts. (0:26:47) Kevin: Good times. (0:26:50) Kevin: But but yeah, you know, one thing to note, this is a second port that they’ve done in the series, (0:26:55) Kevin: which is interesting to me, suggesting that the first one was successful enough to warrant it. (0:27:00) Aislinn: I guess so. (0:27:01) Kevin: That’s pretty cool. (0:27:02) Aislinn: I’m glad. (0:27:02) Kevin: Yeah, I know nothing either. I should’ve picked up Japanese. I’m too big of a weeb not to. (0:27:03) Aislinn: I’m glad for the people that do care about this. (0:27:05) Aislinn: I know nothing about it, but I am happy for those that care about it. (0:27:12) Kevin: I mean, I know some Japanese words. I want to make them echo the journey one day, but in due time I guess. (0:27:20) Kevin: Alright, let’s see here. Next up we’ve got info on cattle country. Yes, not Kent County. Country bigger than that. (0:27:30) Kevin: We have got (0:27:33) Kevin: They say so what interesting thing (0:27:37) Kevin: The thing probably the biggest note is, you know, they’re talking about some features and whatnot, but combat is totally optional (0:27:44) Kevin: Which is kind of wild to see in these games right cuz (0:27:48) Kevin: You know most cottagecore games following the stardew template (0:27:53) Kevin: How you know have some kind of? (0:27:56) Kevin: combat stuck in there, right (0:27:58) Kevin: And it’s you know, just because it’s optional. It’s not bad here. I’m looking that you got bows and arrows (0:28:02) Kevin: And guns and all sorts of stuff (0:28:05) Kevin: But the fact that it’s optional and they’re advertising that that’s uh, that’s pretty fun (0:28:10) Aislinn: I think it’s great yeah I i don’t know why that would put that would it’s a great it’s (0:28:15) Aislinn: it’s a great thing honestly like I have nothing else to say besides like this is something that (0:28:19) Aislinn: is a great feature because if you want to do it you can do it if you don’t want to (0:28:22) Aislinn: you just ignore it’s a win-win (0:28:24) Kevin: Yup. Yup. This is another game where it looks like you can partner up with some of your neighbors or villagers and whatnot, so that’s, that’s fun. (0:28:32) Kevin: There’s, yeah, I think we’ve talked about it before, but there’s, if you look at the trailer, there’s square dancing. They’re playing a nice Western medley song. (0:28:40) Kevin: Um, you’re, it’s very, how, it’s, it’s HANU. Um, that’s what it is. We got state coaches, we got trains, all the good stuff. (0:28:40) Aislinn: Very, it’s definitely very howdy partner. (0:28:52) Kevin: Um, they’re good at ge– (0:28:54) Kevin: Hey, howdy, hey, get your snake in your boot and keep an eye out for cattle count–country. (0:28:57) Aislinn: I mean, there’s even a character named Bandit, so take that as you will. (0:29:00) Kevin: Um, again, I don’t– (0:29:02) Kevin: Yeah, there you go! Eyes required. (0:29:07) Kevin: Alright, next up, a new game, we’ve got, uh, okay. (0:29:10) Kevin: So I started looking at this, and, you know, pre-recording, you know, going over, preparing, whatnot. (0:29:15) Kevin: And I stopped because I just kept saying, “What is this?” I needed to– (0:29:20) Kevin: to put some of that energy into the recording. (0:29:24) Kevin: We are looking at a game called “Fungi’s Swarm.” (0:29:24) Aislinn: It’s so silly. (0:29:28) Kevin: Um, so, you know, G-U-Y-S, “Sworn.” (0:29:32) Kevin: Um, it is a bullet hell game. (0:29:36) Kevin: Um, it is their first dev, uh, like, dev blog. (0:29:41) Kevin: Um, and they are showing it’s– (0:29:44) Kevin: Kinda what the whole thing, right? It is a cartoony, survivor bullet hell, where you become a fungi, (0:29:49) Kevin: wield forest-crafted weapons and unleash bonkers powers against the fire killer. (0:29:54) Kevin: So you there’s a lot going on here. There’s a mushroom guy running around. There’s pumpkin vegetable monsters and bears and like vegetables. I don’t an apple bear and an apple. (0:30:08) Aislinn: There’s a there’s an easter egg for from Coral Island of a waterfowl and it’s the cutest thing I’ve ever seen (0:30:14) Kevin: What I didn’t see that’s incredible. That’s incredible. (0:30:20) Kevin: incredible you’re running around is your little fungus guy with (0:30:24) Kevin: giant watermelon acts like the waterman slice is bigger than you are (0:30:27) Kevin: it’s enormous there’s a great blaster gun thing you’ve got the powers like oh (0:30:34) Kevin: oh yeah that’s uh this is some good stuff there’s what is going on with this (0:30:40) Kevin: apple teeny it’s a half-eaten apple with a warm a very buff warm popping out of (0:30:45) Kevin: it you know there’s runs it’s oh it’s colorful it’s wacky it’s cartoony it’s (0:30:54) Kevin: magnificent I don’t what are these little for sanctuary pals you got like (0:30:58) Kevin: buzz balls with fruit stems there’s all block (0:31:00) Aislinn: I have no, not a single clue, but it looks like, it looks cute and fun, cozy and fun. (0:31:08) Kevin: yep yep (0:31:08) Aislinn: It looks like it’s a good balance of that, I feel like. (0:31:11) Aislinn: I feel like it does somehow fit into the Cottagecore game. (0:31:14) Aislinn: It just, it just somehow does fit, yes it is like a bullet hell game, but it still feels, (0:31:20) Aislinn: it feels like it’s going to be accessible enough to fall into the category of Cottagecore. (0:31:20) Kevin: Oh, yeah for sure. Um, it’s certainly caught my eye (0:31:27) Kevin: Obviously, we’re gonna be a ways off from this bad boy coming out, but I’m definitely keeping my out that is again fun guys swarm (0:31:35) Kevin: They’re good on you a lot of good news stories this week. Nothing. Nothing. Give me any heartache or anything (0:31:38) Aislinn: Honestly, yeah. (0:31:42) Kevin: That’s exciting stuff. Oh (0:31:45) Kevin: All right, and with that let’s talk about some let’s move on to something else exciting. Let’s talk about (0:31:50) Aislinn: Yeah. Oh my gosh. (0:31:50) Kevin: Wonder stuff, huh? (0:31:53) Kevin: Okay, so again, this is the tea shop simulator created by the Stanley parable dev team (0:32:01) Kevin: If you haven’t played Stanley parable (0:32:04) Kevin: You might want to pause go listen because I think we need to talk about it because that’s important for context (0:32:09) Kevin: and (0:32:10) Kevin: So important that acelin has actually played Stanley parable prior to the gay wonder stuff in preparation (0:32:17) Kevin: So let’s hear some thoughts (0:32:17) Aislinn: I did. Yeah, so I, yeah, once I found out that this game was being created by the people (0:32:25) Aislinn: that made Stanley Parable, I very much was like, I’ve always wanted to play Stanley Parable, (0:32:31) Aislinn: but I put that way up on my, I moved that way up for my backlog, because I knew and (0:32:35) Kevin: Uh-huh (0:32:37) Aislinn: I’ve heard great things about this game, which I think everyone knows about. If you haven’t (0:32:41) Aislinn: played the game, you still know the premise of the game and what the game is all about. (0:32:43) Kevin: John (0:32:44) Kevin: Yep for for (0:32:45) Aislinn: And I was very curious to check it out. (0:32:46) Kevin: Yeah for clarity. I have not played it myself, but as you said, I am very familiar (0:32:50) Kevin: I know all the secrets. I don’t feel free to let out whatever you want. Um, you just listener assume we’re spoiling whatever. Okay, it’s (0:32:53) Aislinn: Yeah, I played as many, spoiler warning for Stanley Parable, a very long time. (0:32:59) Kevin: Yes game that’s been out how long now (0:33:04) Aislinn: But the thing is, before I played Stanley Parable, I knew it was a strange game or a (0:33:08) Aislinn: very interesting game that a lot of people liked, but I didn’t know what the premise (0:33:11) Aislinn: of the game was. (0:33:12) Aislinn: So I went in pretty blind and it was an experience for sure. (0:33:17) Aislinn: It took me a while to get into because I was like, “What is happening?” (0:33:21) Kevin: Ha ha ha ha! (0:33:23) Aislinn: As I continued, I was like, “Okay, I’m starting to get it. (0:33:26) Aislinn: I’m starting to understand.” (0:33:27) Aislinn: And it was a very, very fun and fascinating and silly game. (0:33:33) Aislinn: And I did pretty much almost all of the endings except the ones like the, what was it, like (0:33:40) Aislinn: the baby one with like the dog and like the, you have to like stand up. (0:33:42) Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. (0:33:44) Aislinn: You know that one, that one ending, we have to like be in the game for like three hours (0:33:47) Aislinn: or something. (0:33:49) Aislinn: I refused to do that one. (0:33:49) Kevin: Yeah, that’s correct. (0:33:50) Aislinn: I just watched it on YouTube. (0:33:51) Aislinn: I was like, “There’s no way I’m doing this.” (0:33:54) Aislinn: But just like that absurdity and like that confusion, I’m just like, “Yeah, no. (0:33:59) Aislinn: Okay. (0:33:59) Aislinn: I understand why people like this game now. (0:34:01) Aislinn: Like I have not experienced this in a game in a very, very, very long time.” (0:34:05) Aislinn: And it just took twists and turns and I was like, “Huh.” (0:34:09) Aislinn: And I was happy that I got to experience that before playing this game. (0:34:13) Aislinn: Cause I was curious if they were going to do things in this game that also (0:34:16) Aislinn: kind of caught me off guard and surprised me and that definitely did happen. (0:34:18) Kevin: All right, yep. (0:34:23) Aislinn: As a general notice, we’re not going to spoil like main plots of the game. (0:34:30) Aislinn: We may talk about a little bit of hint towards a little couple of things here (0:34:33) Aislinn: and there, but we’ll try our best to not spoil the game because both of us are (0:34:37) Aislinn: just about at the same point in the story and we both kind of share the sentiment (0:34:40) Aislinn: that we want y’all to check out the game and experience the not absurdity, but (0:34:47) Aislinn: just like the twists and turns of the game that also surprised me. (0:34:49) Kevin: Yep. (0:34:53) Aislinn: I was playing Wanderstop as I continued into it. (0:34:55) Kevin: Uh-huh. (0:34:56) Aislinn: Like it took me a while to get into Stanley Parable. (0:34:57) Aislinn: It took me a while to get into Wanderstop. (0:34:59) Aislinn: And as I continue, I was like start, I felt the same feeling that I felt when I (0:34:59) Kevin: Yeah. (0:35:03) Aislinn: was playing Wanderstop versus when I was playing Stanley Parable, but in just (0:35:04) Kevin: So. (0:35:07) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:35:08) Kevin: Right. (0:35:09) Kevin: Okay, so. (0:35:11) Kevin: Again, if someone who- so, that’s all great. (0:35:13) Kevin: And I appreciate you played it, ‘cause at least one of us can speak to it, but, um… (0:35:15) Aislinn: Well, you know about it too, you know. (0:35:19) Kevin: And so. (0:35:21) Kevin: Like. (0:35:22) Kevin: Maybe I don’t fully have heard everything, but the tone of Stanley Parable is almost… (0:35:29) Kevin: It’s very absurdist, very- almost adversarial in times, right? (0:35:32) Kevin: Like the narrator is constantly fighting against you, or you’re being sent down roads that are unpleasant, or so on and so forth, right? (0:35:39) Kevin: Like, it’s an enjoyable experience and a lot of fun, don’t get me, like, clearly, but… (0:35:45) Kevin: It is a very different vibe from a Cottagecore game, right? (0:35:49) Aislinn: Yes, very much so. (0:35:49) Kevin: So, when you- (0:35:51) Kevin: Right? (0:35:52) Kevin: And so when you hear they’re doing this- a tea shop simil- and they’re, you know, outright saying it’s gonna be a cozy game, like… (0:36:00) Kevin: What am I- what am I gonna do? I’m- I’m on guard, like, you’re the Stanley Parable people. (0:36:02) Aislinn: I know! (0:36:04) Kevin: I don’t believe a word you say, I am- (0:36:06) Aislinn: It literally says on the Steam page, “From the creator of the Stanley Parable.” (0:36:11) Aislinn: It’s the first line! (0:36:11) Kevin: Yep, so. (0:36:12) Kevin: Yup. (0:36:13) Kevin: So, I’m, you know, I’m coming into Wanderstop armed with a knife, just ready to fight back whatever this game’s- (0:36:19) Kevin: he’s gonna throw at me, right? (0:36:21) Kevin: Um… (0:36:22) Kevin: And, um… (0:36:24) Kevin: Well, I mean, shocker, it’s not the Stanley Parable, right? Like, some things carry over, like, it’s quality-quality writing. (0:36:31) Kevin: Excellent writing throughout, absolutely. (0:36:33) Kevin: There are some twists and turns, but it’s- it’s not in the insane, zany Stanley Parable way, it’s- it’s all, you know, in a narrative structure that- that fits it and whatnot. (0:36:46) Kevin: Um… (0:36:47) Kevin: I can confirm. (0:36:49) Kevin: I would call this a cozy game, but it’s a cozy game that sometimes pulls out a knife on you because sometimes I’m not ready for it. (0:36:54) Aislinn: Yes. (0:36:59) Aislinn: Yes. (0:37:00) Aislinn: Yes. (0:37:02) Kevin: I’ll get to that in a second, but the point being, there’s no secret endings, there’s no crazy insane tasks. (0:37:13) Kevin: And I tried, like one of the first things I did, like when you start the game you can run back into the force. I ran into the force like ten times. (0:37:19) Kevin: I was expecting something and nothing happened. I looked it up and there’s nothing, no insane hidden things like Stanley Parable, right? (0:37:30) Kevin: There’s some stuff, but nothing just completely insane. (0:37:36) Kevin: So yeah, it’s wild to see that they’re actually playing it straight. We’re getting a “cozy game”. (0:37:44) Kevin: So with that in mind, let’s talk about the premise, because I say (0:37:49) Kevin: “cozy” but there’s a big asterisk here because it is possibly one of the most “uncozy” openings to any game ever. (0:37:52) Aislinn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. (0:37:57) Aislinn: But I loved it. I genuinely loved it. (0:37:57) Kevin: And yes, yep. So this is, and you’re not an avatar, you’re not a Stanley, a blankly avatar more or less, you are playing a character named Alta. (0:38:09) Kevin: She is a fighter, a warrior, goes into tournaments. The story starts with her description of her wanting to be the best. (0:38:18) Kevin: she’s undefeated for like three. (0:38:19) Kevin: and she just totally off her game so what does she do she seeks out help she (0:38:21) Aislinn: Very, very long time, but yeah. (0:38:45) Kevin: He seeks out Master Winters, a legendary warrior. (0:38:49) Kevin: Who she thinks can help her get a groove back. (0:38:52) Kevin: So, Alta runs through the forest, but then at some point, her body starts to fail her. (0:38:59) Kevin: She collapses, and she wakes up in this clearing in the forest, in front of a tea shop called “Wanderstup”. (0:39:06) Kevin: She meets the proprietor, a man named Boro, who is a fantastic… (0:39:10) Aislinn: Oh, he’s wonderful. I love him. (0:39:13) Kevin: He is the complete, I would say foil, like opposite foil to Alta. (0:39:16) Aislinn: Yeah. (0:39:17) Kevin: She is the most chills (0:39:19) Kevin: Zen just goes with the flow kind of guy. He’s happy. Good luck. He always cracking jokes and whatnot. Um (0:39:24) Aislinn: So sweet (0:39:26) Kevin: He’s a wonderful man. Um, he is the one who rescued Alta (0:39:30) Kevin: explains where she is and (0:39:33) Kevin: and basically suggests for her to take a break because (0:39:38) Kevin: One of the first thing she does is try to pick her her sword and she can’t (0:39:41) Kevin: Why meanwhile borrow can pick it up. No problem. And it’s just something (0:39:46) Kevin: Something going on with Arthur. She can’t fight. She can’t… (0:39:49) Kevin: She can’t lift her. (0:39:50) Kevin: if you run back into the forest like I did you just collapse and are sent back to the clearing so (0:39:54) Aislinn: I did too for context. I also did the same thing as you, because I was like, I just need to know. (0:39:57) Kevin: Yeah (0:39:59) Kevin: Yeah, it’s though it would be that (0:40:00) Aislinn: Especially again, coming off of Stanley Parable, I was like, I just need to know. (0:40:02) Kevin: it (0:40:04) Kevin: It would be the most Stanley peril thing in the world right the run out you get it ending (0:40:08) Kevin: like absolutely, so (0:40:10) Kevin: So yeah, so that um so with you know after repeated attempts if you do or you just give up (0:40:17) Kevin: Boro suggests to Ulta to just stay there (0:40:20) Kevin: and the tea shop to help out to try to rest and recover (0:40:23) Kevin: because she’s clearly suffering from over exhaustion. (0:40:27) Kevin: And and so that and already at this very 10 minute initial premise, (0:40:33) Kevin: the game is is is going at me like directly targeting me bullseye because. (0:40:39) Kevin: So, OK, you are a hard worker. (0:40:42) Kevin: You probably relate to this. (0:40:44) Kevin: I think a lot of people from our generation, how we were raised, like, (0:40:48) Kevin: you know, we a lot of people, (0:40:50) Kevin: we’re raising the very drive, like driven generation, right? (0:40:54) Kevin: Work hard, work hard, succeed, go to the next thing, right? (0:40:56) Aislinn: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. (0:40:57) Kevin: Be the top, be first in class, right? (0:40:59) Kevin: And and I personally like my I was in the warrior, (0:41:02) Kevin: but like I graduated salutatorian in high school. (0:41:05) Kevin: Like my academic pursuits were like everything to me. (0:41:08) Aislinn: Mm-hmm. (0:41:10) Kevin: So I can relate to that very much so. (0:41:13) Kevin: And then there comes a point when life just punches you in the face (0:41:17) Kevin: And you, you know, you just, you’re, you’re knocked out a few. (0:41:20) Kevin: Notches. So I get this and I’m already very not comfortable with how personal this story has gotten. (0:41:26) Aislinn: Yeah, yeah, I really felt the anger that Alta was feeling in the beginning, not to the fullest extent, because I’m just generally not a very like angry person. But like, what, like the underlying emotions of that anger, I genuinely felt because I definitely also feel that in the sense that as a person that considers myself very hardworking as well, to be working so hard, and then to be knocked down like that, it really, really, really sucks. I get that. (0:41:34) Kevin: Yeah. Right. (0:41:54) Kevin: Yep (0:41:56) Aislinn: I definitely really felt for her right off the bat. Like immediately, I was like, Oh, this is one of those games. Oh, no, my heart. I was like, Oh, no, they really did. (0:42:00) Kevin: Yeah (0:42:04) Kevin: Yup (0:42:10) Kevin: Yup, yup. Yup. They have set the stage (0:42:15) Kevin: and and and again in right there in contrast with Boro a wonderful truly cozy character and then also the most (0:42:24) Kevin: I have possibly seen in a cottage core game (0:42:28) Kevin: But (0:42:30) Kevin: Like for me that one of the bits that really resonated is just running through the forest right getting back up going back (0:42:36) Kevin: Like I relate to that very much so to to maybe not on well (0:42:42) Kevin: Okay, I’ll say someone on the healthy levels, but or it’s let’s say it’s affected me right like I’ve definitely (0:42:47) Aislinn: We all go through it. We’re human. We all go through it. (0:42:48) Kevin: Right, right. Yeah (0:42:51) Kevin: Um, and so being forced to stop. (0:42:54) Kevin: That out of your control, that’s something I wouldn’t handle. (0:42:57) Kevin: Well, I&am

PTSD is often called the invisible wound, a battle fought in the mind long after the war has ended. But for those who live with it, the struggle is very real. Kevin Macomber, author of Walking From The Shadows: My journey With Post Traumatic Stress Disorder shared his personal path to healing on The Spark. Asia: So, let's start off with your chapter called Accepting. You said that this book won't be focused on veteran -related PTSD and that you've come to the conclusion that trauma is trauma. Why did you take that approach? Kevin: The book that somebody reads today is not the book that I started with. I think, you know, it's a natural tendency of all veterans to want to dive down and go into the detail of what they experienced. And you get into that, and it really is a somewhat narrow audience when you start writing that way. When I got into other chapters in the book, I needed people to read it. and I called upon people I knew, and I said, hey, I need you to take a look at some of the chapters I'm writing, and I wanted to see, you know, does it resonate with you? Do you relate to it? And it was really an interesting journey because people I knew I didn't really know. And they started opening up, and some of them just told me horrific stories about what happened to them in, you know, dysfunctional childhoods, abusive marriages. you know, I really had to do some self -reflection there and I said, you know, as bad as what I went through, I did not go through that. And there's probably as many as four chapters that were in the book and a lot of other content. I just took a pen and I whacked it. I just pulled all of it out and I said, my trauma is no worse than anybody else's trauma. I think as a society, a culture, and we see it on TV all the time, you know, exalting veterans, nothing wrong with that. It's great. but my book wasn't about the trauma, my book was about the healing. And we all share pretty much the same common healing issues and journeys as one another and it really doesn't matter what trauma you went through. Asia: So, you said that the physical copy of the book today isn't what it was when you first began writing it. When did you first begin writing the book? And when did you make the change? Kevin: Well, I didn't know I was writing a book. So, you know, back in the 90s, when I had a mental breakdown, and we just, I was in South Carolina at the time, which was probably a problem in itself. If you think that the mental health system now is not good, and you sometimes hear the criticism, oh, there's not enough counselors, or my insurance doesn't cover it, all these things, you still hear it. It's nothing compared to what it was like in the 90s. There was absolutely nothing. and culturally, it wasn't acceptable to talk about your weaknesses. There was a stigma to mental health, but particularly if you were a veteran, you wouldn't talk about, oh my God, I got really sick for my service. And so, you know, moving forward, I couldn't figure out a lot of the things. I was a smart guy, you know, I was a sales engineer by trade. I could pretty much sort of articulate on paper what I was thinking, what I was feeling, and I would just write and I'd write. So I journaled for about 20 years. Listen to the podcast to hear the entire conversation. Support WITF: https://www.witf.org/support/give-now/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Summary Kevin and Kathy discuss the concept of 'soul care' and practices to nurture one's soul. Their discussion explores the importance of solitude, silence, and stillness as means to connect with one's inner self and find peace amidst the distractions and noise of daily life. Interspersed are helpful personal anecdotes, practical tips, and a poem that encourages slowing down and appreciating the present moment. Kevin Hi everyone, welcome back to another episode of Coping. We took off a few weeks ago, giving you all a vacation and we also took a vacation ourselves. Kathy Yes, and we thought it was a great time to begin a new series we're calling Summer Soul Care. I wonder, Kevin, what comes to your mind when you think about soul care? Kevin Well, I work in a hospital, and our department is called the spiritual care department. So I actually spend a lot of time thinking about spiritual care, soul care, and how to do that effectively, especially for those who are sick and in the hospital setting. So the first thing that comes to mind for me is something that's active, to make sure that when you care for either your own soul or somebody else's soul, it's an action that you do, a practice that you take, something that you offer that's tangible. Kathy Hmm. Yeah, that's a good and easy, practical way to think about it. And especially as we're thinking about our souls, we can link it to something that we'll be doing. So let's get started. Kathy So one of our favorite podcasters and authors, her name is Ruth Haley Barton. She writes this quote, I really love this thought provoking quote. She says, "losing your soul is sort of like losing a credit card. You think it's in your wallet or purse, so you don't give it much thought until one day you reach for it and you can't find it. Kathy The minute you realize it's gone, you start scrambling to find it, trying to remember when you lost it or last used it or at least had it in your possession. No matter what is going on in your life, you have to stop and look for it because otherwise there could be major damage done. Kathy Some of us know that we are losing bits and pieces of our souls every day and we are scared to death that we might be very close to going over an edge." So as a chaplain, how have you experienced this with those you serve? Kevin Yeah, this is something I help patients wrestle with on a daily basis. The reality is most people don't give a lot of thought to their spiritual life, to their souls. It's only when we are sick, when we are ill and in pain, that we look for strength and often look inward for that strength to be able to push through and to cope with whatever we're going through. Kevin And so what happens, like that analogy that's so vivid and so true about the credit card, if you haven't been investing into that fund, you don't have the funds to tap into on that card and that soul, then you find yourself not being able to use it when you need it most. Kevin And, you know, my belief is that we never lose our soul, we never go to a point where we don't have it. But if we're not investing in it, then it's certainly not going to be valuable to us when we perhaps need it most. And so when we encounter somebody who has deficient funds on their card or in their spiritual life, it's a chaplain's job to come alongside them and to help them tap into their strengths in their life, to help them connect to their faith practices, their rituals, the things that give their life meaning so that they could begin to cope with their illness and then find a pathway to healing that encompasses not just their physical body, but their emotional, spiritual mental selves as well. Kathy Yes, that sounds very practical and helpful. And like you said, it often doesn't happen until the body begins shutting down. A part of ourselves is not working, that we then begin to think about that. Kevin For sure that's exactly it. Whenever one part of ourselves feels deficient we tap into the other parts of ourselves to find what we're missing. I wonder for you as a coach where do you see this in the lives of your students? Kathy Well, I think they're like most people not thinking about their souls, like they don't have time to or they don't know what that looks like or what that means. And so if there's no awareness about soul care and practices, then you can't move forward. You can't, like you said, you won't have anything to show in those times where you need it the most. And so today we want to discuss the first three S's of soul care in hopes of beginning this discussion. Kathy So the first S is solitude. And we're going to define solitude as uninterrupted alone time in a distraction free environment. Uninterrupted alone time in a distraction free environment. It's kind of a joke where we think, what? Which environment is distraction-free these days? But what are your thoughts on solitude and how do you think that we can find this in the busyness of our world? Kevin Yeah, what you pointed out in that definition is what stood out to me is the distraction free environment. I can't think of an environment that is distraction free. Likewise, we fill our lives with a lot of positive distractions as well, friends, family, hobbies, things that we like to do. Kevin But solitude is that practice that we are intentionally letting go of those things that keep us busy, that keep us distracted from what's actually going on inside. And it becomes the way that we cope with our pain and our lives being the way that they are so hectic and crazy is by continually moving from one thing to the next to keep our mind busy so it's not flooded with those deeper, harder feelings that are conjuring inside. And so it's definitely a hard one. But something that comes to mind is the need to sacrifice something to find that solitude often will require saying no to things or to people and creating that intentional space for that solitude. Kathy And in our community, what we talk about that might be helpful is to actually schedule in times of solitude. One homework assignment – and our listeners can do this – this week is to schedule a soul date for themselves where they can enter into the solitude. I would say that doesn't have to be long. It can be 20 minutes. It doesn't have to be, oh, I don't have an entire day. It can be a short period of time. It could be 20 minutes. And the best thing about entering into solitude, the best benefit we have from solitude is that it allows us after we've been in solitude to be more present. Kevin And that leads us well into our next S of soul care, is silence. And so we define silence as abstaining from speaking, reading and noise in order to be quiet. Gosh, I'm thinking about how noisy my work is, how noisy the world is, the freeways are, the news is, my phone can be, gosh, Kathy, how do we find silence in this day and age? Kathy Another good question, the first thing I would say is I think everyone needs to stop and think about how they feel about silence. Does it make you nervous if things are too quiet? Are we okay with there being no noise or background music or background TV? We turn on all of these things to avoid the silence, so I think it's important to have a little conversation with ourselves to determine how we feel about the silence, and if we're giving ourselves permission to enter the silence, then silence practices will be beneficial to us. Kevin That's so true. And I think just from personal experience, learning to be comfortable with silence. For most people, I think they're adverse to being in silence because the silence isn't silent. When you're starting off trying to be silent, that's where all the noise comes up with your thoughts, your feelings, all of those fears and concerns, the worries, the to-do list, everything starts to rush in when you create that space and that silence. And so if you find yourself struggling to find that silence, even when you're being intentional about it, my encouragement is to keep trying. Kevin Keep creating that space for silence. You can keep a pad of paper next to you so that if thoughts and things that you need to remember flood in in those moments of silence, write them down and then move back to your silent place again. It's so important that we continue to practice silence, knowing that it's a hard thing to do and continue to go back to it again and again because after we move through all of that noise that floods in when we are silent, on the other side of that is that peaceful silence that I think that we're all craving. Kathy 100% true. And yeah, the notebook is a really good idea. And then if you like to be active when you're trying to enter the silence, this is one that I do often is you can go on a walk without any music. But what you can do is listen to the sounds that you hear on your walk. You can start counting them. You can start cataloging them. Really what you are doing is you are entering silence, even though it sounds like you're not because you're hearing noises, but you're allowing the natural sounds to enter in instead of what we typically have are the distracted noises of the world entering in. Kathy So if you're going on this walk, it's a very good way. Maybe it's like a bridge to entering silent places. This is like a really good way to do it as well. And the main benefit from entering into silence when you do these practices is that then we're actually attuning our ears to listen. Kevin And attuning our ears to listen to self, all of those things that we push down and we're moving away from, those difficult feelings and thoughts. But when we learn to listen to self, we then are better able to listen to others and what their experiences are and be present to them in their pain and their story. And that leads us into our last S for this episode. And our third S is stillness. How are we defining stillness? Kathy Stillness is defined as "to stop, cease, desist, and disconnect from the outside world". Kevin Man, these are getting harder and harder, aren't they? They seem to also be building on one another. How do we get to this third S of stillness? Kathy Well, there's I think something that's been the theme of our discussion today is that there needs to be a lot of intentionality around this practice. So believe it or not, you may or may not know about this feature on your phone. It's called Do Not Disturb. And guess what? We can turn it on. And one practice that you can do is to turn it on on your phone for an hour a day. Put on Do Not Disturb on your phone and allow the stillness to come in as you disconnect. Kathy It doesn't mean that you're just going to be still during that time, but you're disconnecting from that usual hustle, bustle, chaos, noise. You could do something else in the stillness. It's not that you have to sit still. Notice that's not what we said. But the major benefit from entering into stillness is that we can become better engaged after being still. Kathy So out of these three, solitude, silence, or stillness, which one do you think is easiest for you? Kevin Gosh. I've had a lot of practice with silence, learning to be silent, and to tune into that silence. So I think that that's probably the one that's easiest for me. It's the hardest to find, but when it's there, I feel very comfortable with it, if that makes sense. What about for you? Kathy Uh, the easiest, and again, these aren't easy, but they come more naturally if you keep practicing, um, I would say is solitude because I really now look forward to times when nobody is at home, like, um, I think it was an hour today of no one being here so that I can enter into the solitude. Kevin Right. And which one's difficult for you? Kathy I think stillness is still hard for me. I'm the one telling you to put on do not disturb. The reason is, is I am such a breaking news type of person that, and especially these days, we've had a lot of breaking news that has been very important to our world that I don't want to miss out. It's the FOMO, that's terrible. But like, you're gonna miss out on hearing something or a text message or someone was trying to call you, but in the days when we didn't have technology, we all just waited. Kathy I lived during that time period. It was totally fine that we didn't find out for three hours about the breaking news or whatever it was, nothing happened. And it was actually all better because then we were all more, we weren't on this 24 hours a day, seven days a week, nonstop, chaotic, stressful rollercoaster of what we all are living on right now. Kevin And so to end our podcast today, we'd like to invite everybody to take a moment to do their own soul check-in. And so I'm going to hand it over to Kathy, who will lead us through that. Kathy Yes, I just invite you now to think about the words of this poem and check in with your soul. It is called "On Time" and it's by Ruth Haley Barton. There have to be times in your life when you move slow. Times when you walk rather than run, settling into each step. There have to be times when you stop and gaze admiredly at loved ones, marveling that they have been given to you for this life. Times when hugs linger and kisses are real. When food and drink are savored with gratitude and humility, rather than gulp down on your way to something else. There have to be times when you read for the sheer pleasure of it, marveling at the beauty of words and endless creativity in putting them together. Times when you settle into the comforts of home and become human once again. There have to be times when you light a candle and find the tender place inside you that loves or sorrows or sings and you pray from that place. Times when you let yourself feel, when you allow the tears to come rather than blinking them back because you don't have time to cry. There have to be times to sink into the soft body of yourself and love what you love simply because love itself is a grace. Times when you sit with gratitude for the good gifts of your life that get lost and forgotten in the rush of things. Times to celebrate and play, to roll down hills, to splash in water or make leaf piles, to spread paint on paper or walls or each other. There have to be times to sit and wait for the fullness of God that replenishes body, mind and soul. If you can even stand to be so full, there has to be time for the fullness of time or time is meaningless.

Summary This episode of “Coping” discusses the concept of courage and introduces seven daily acts of courage as outlined by Robert Staub in his TED Talk. Kevin and Kathy engage in a thoughtful dialogue exploring each of the seven acts and share personal experiences and insights on how these acts manifest in their lives as well as the importance of practicing courage daily. At the end, you'll be given the opportunity to rate yourself on each act of courage to determine your overall 'courage quotient'. Kevin Oh, hi, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of “Coping”. Kathy Yes, welcome back, everyone. Today, we want to continue our discussion on courage that we started our last podcast. And I have a question for you, Kevin: would you consider yourself a courageous person? Kevin Well, based on our last podcast episode conversation, I've been rethinking my definition of courage, the models and myths that I've developed over the years. I would say that I am a risk taker. I like to take risks, I like that feeling of taking a leap of faith, and then that leap being met with some success or improvement. So I don't know if I would say I'm courageous, but I definitely am open to taking calculated risks. And what about you? Do you consider yourself to be a courageous person? Kathy I think the same applies to if I consider myself to be a creative person. The answer is traditionally no. But I think that if I look into my life, I see lots of acts of courage and risk-taking. So others would say that about me. So I think this discussion today is really going to widen and round out our view of what courage looks like. So let's get started. Kathy So as you all know, in a recent spring retreat, I shared about this topic of courage. And I also introduced executive leadership coach speaker Robert Staub, who did a 2016 TED Talk called Daily Acts of Courage. And there he talks about how we can practice small acts every day to strengthen the courage of our hearts. It's such an interesting concept. And there are actually seven everyday acts of courage we can all engage in every single day to build up our courage. Kathy So the first act of courage is the courage to dream and express it. Do you have visions, goals, and dreams, Kevin? How's that for you? Kevin Yes, ever since a young age, I was a dreamer, had big plans for my life, envisioned my goals and went after them. I would say I erred on the side of dreaming and didn't always have a plan to accomplish those dreams and goals. In our relationship, I'm definitely the dreamer, but you're the person that helps make those dreams and goals become a reality. So that's why I think we partner well together. What about you? How do you express your dreaming and goal setting in your life, knowing that you're a very practical person? Kathy So I would say, and I often say to students, it's okay not to be a dreamer, not to have a dream, but what happens though is that we do have to have a plan for our lives moving forward. And if you look into my life, you see lots of dreaming, lots of ideas being carried out. There's two sources. We have to tap into the sources of where our dreaming can come from. For me, it has been my faith, where I actively am listening. That would be the number one source. And the second place is for the needs of those people I serve, I'm always dreaming for them. And that is how the dream comes true for me. I personally still to this day don't have any dreams, but if I dream for those that I'm helping and serving, there's lots. And I can then take steps toward that, courageous steps towards that. So it's very untraditional. Kevin Yeah, and I think that that leads us to the second act of courage, which is the courage to see current reality. This is something that I see you do particularly well, especially for the students that you work with. Do you have the ability to see the truth and not have blinders on? How do you have that unique and innate ability to see current reality? How do you do that? Kathy This is a really hard one, especially in light of how difficult our experiences are, the world around us, the reality, the harsh reality that we all are living in right now. I think first of all is that the ability to see reality is to admit truth to yourself, to be open to truth. I think it's a gift. I think discernment is a gift that we are given. So I've had that from a young age, the gift to see things as they are. But that doesn't mean that I wanted to always step into that. There was a period of time in my life where I shut my eyes to the harsh reality and I lived in a fantasy world and a dream-like state of like, oh, everyone's helpful, everyone's nice, everyone has my best interest at heart. Kathy I don't believe that any longer, sadly. But I know that now we live in a broken world, but we're here to help redeem the broken places. So that helps me to embrace the truth of things because only when we can see broken things as they are can we actually move in to try and come alongside to help fix, support, et cetera. Kevin Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Kathy And what about you? Do you feel like you have the ability to see truth without the blinders on? Kevin I've had to learn how to do this. I think the practice of seeing current reality and accepting it and not getting lost in the dream world like you said, is a practice I've developed in my work as a chaplain with other people, especially those who are sick and in pain in the hospital, getting new diagnoses. There's a sacredness and the ability to be present to somebody in their story and in their pain and not try to silver line their difficult and challenging experience. And so to support somebody who is struggling is the ability to see them and their pain and not trying to fix it. So I've, I've practiced that quite a lot in my work and gotten pretty good at it. Even though it doesn't come as naturally to me. Kathy Yes. To sit in the present reality with them, which is very bleak at times. Kevin Right. Right. Kathy And you know, that leads us to the third act of courage, the courage to confront. You know, truth has a lot to do with courage. So first we're talking about the truth of acknowledging reality. And then the second part is the courage to confront. And this one, as we know, is especially difficult. One I've had to work on over the years to be able to not only see the truth, but then confront it when necessary. I would say that I'm okay at doing it. I just know it's part of leadership now. And it's just one of those things, skills that you can have. It doesn't ever make it any easier, I would say, but I do have that skill now in my tool bag, but it's still really hard. How about you? Kevin Yeah, I think that when I think about confrontation it makes me a little bit nervous. I don't like hurting other people's feelings. I care way too much about what people think about me, how they perceive me, and I want everybody to like me. And so confrontation is a hard practice when you care a lot about those things and for me a little bit too much about those things. But I've learned in my life that the most meaningful relationships, the most meaningful experiences, are the ones where I'm willing to speak the truth, to tell the truth to somebody, to endure confrontation, and to face things head-on. And so I don't like to be the one to initiate the confrontation, but if somebody has something they want to tell me about that I've done, something that I did or said and wasn't aware of, I want somebody to point it out to me because I don't want to be, you know, hurting other people's feelings or to be doing something that I haven't given a lot of thought to so, yeah, confrontation is hard, but I've I've learned that there can be some good that comes from healthy confrontation. Kathy Yes, that's actually the fourth act of courage that you're talking about. So the third one is the courage to confront and the fourth is the courage to be confronted. Kevin Yeah, I think I find this one to be much easier for me. What about for you? How do you feel about confronting and being confronted? Kathy Yeah, so again, I think both these areas have had to work on a lot as a two on the Enneagram -- helper -- I didn't like other people's perception of me and that was very hard. I was very sensitive as a young child to criticism, to people saying things. As I grew older I began to understand the value of standing up for truth. I am an advocate. So being able to confront others, but then also having to be confronted. It works both sides of the coin -- If we can confront we have to be able to be confronted. So it's hard But I would say again, it's something that I'm used to doing fairly often. I had someone do it this week about an experience that they had in one of our programs and they're like, "Oh, sorry to tell you this" and I was like, "No tell me. I really do want to hear because I desperately want to improve and for us to get better." Kevin Yeah, and that leaves us perfectly into our fifth act of courage and that's the courage to learn and to grow. And so like you just said, we're open to confrontation because you and I both share a value of always learning and always growing, being open to new ways of seeing things, new perspectives. We want to know those hard truths so that we can improve all of the ways of being in the world. Have you always been the kind of person courageous enough to always want to learn and grow? Kathy No, I'm not a risky person. I don't like change. I don't like risks. I don't like things changing, no. And I think that's surprising for people who see the outer view of me, because they're like, "You're always changing. You're always pivoting." And I'm like, yes, but I had to, again, step into that. And for me, it is faith. That's the core of it, that if I feel like it's a faith move, then I can step into learning and growing, because I know that my faith is empowering me and those around me. Kevin Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you say that you're not the kind of person that likes change and risk. I know that to be true about you, but I also see it as somebody that does want to always learn and always wants to grow and is always taking in new information, new perspectives and so I wonder if you could say a little bit more about how you wrestle with that tension in your own life. Kathy Yeah, I was gonna say that just like we talked in our last podcast about fear and courage existing in the same moment -- Is this the same, right? It's okay to not like risks. It's okay to not like change but know that all of the change and the growth and dreaming is necessary to move us forward to higher versions of ourselves, our callings our service and so if you're not wanting to do that. That's okay. I don't think I want to do it either. I would rather just stay home all day and watch my favorite Netflix shows and not take risks and not move forward. Yeah, like we all -- I want everyone to understand. like even people like us that you all see that are doing that, I personally, it's not my favorite. But again, it's about in the end you have to determine what kind of life do you want for yourself? If it's a life of stagnation or a life of growth and a life of growth involves work, investment, constant sowing and discipline. So whatever life you want, you know, if you want to live a courageous life, you have to put the work into it. So that's just the bottom line. You don't have to like it. I don't necessarily like it all the time, but I know that it's necessary. That's where the tension exists. Kevin So what's number six? What's the sixth act of courage? Kathy So you already mentioned this one, but this is one that's I think is really interesting. Staub says that the sixth act of courage -- courage is the ability to be vulnerable with others and living the truth of your story and also asking for help, being able to ask for help. You shared a little bit earlier about the vulnerable piece. What about you? Kevin Yeah, I love the correlation between living your truth but also asking for help. I have learned over the years that vulnerability comes naturally to those who have had a lot of hardship and challenges in their life. And so that pain is very present to me in all of my experiences, even when I'm having my most joyous moments, that sadness is lingering right there. When I'm sitting with people in their pain, I'm feeling my own resonance with that pain that they've had because of my own history of pain and loss. And so I think vulnerability is that ability to tap into my own experiences of pain and express some compassion for people who are experiencing that themselves. But true vulnerability is not suspended on its own. Kevin And so true vulnerability is coupled with good systems of support. When I'm just vulnerable, I'm just feeling pain and feeling the person's pain that I'm with. But the ability to show up courageously and to be vulnerable with somebody is recognizing that, yes, I do have my pain, but I'm also walking down a pathway of healing. And because I know that healing from that pain is possible, I can convey that to the person that I'm with. So vulnerability is not just a feeling. The courage of vulnerability is asking for help and having systems of support in place to support my pain so that I can support others who are in pain as well. Kathy It's interesting that you're talking about vulnerability isn't a feeling, it's an action because that leads us to the seventh act of courage, which is the courage to act. In the end, courage is not a word, it's not a feeling, it's not a label, it's an action. So if you have practiced the ability to step up and follow through in your life, then this is what he says: the seventh act of courage is the courage to act. Kevin And I love how each of the acts of courage build on one another and lead to action themselves. When we think about courageous people and how they're brave enough to make change in their lives, to take those leaps of faith, we can see it's not just one isolated decision, it's a series of decisions, a series of acts, if you will, that lead to even more action in their life. Kathy Yes, I love that he's built this bridge of courage for us in these seven acts, and they're so practical. I just have loved learning about this. And to sum up basically what we've done today, one of the quotes he says, he teaches, "small daily acts of courage can develop the cardiovascular system of your soul". Small daily acts of courage can develop the cardiovascular system of your soul. So I wonder today, how is your soul doing with regards to courage? We thought we would help you figure out your courage quotient today. Kathy We're going to review the seven acts. And what I would like you to do now, if you'd like to join us, you would grab a piece of paper. I'll let you do that. While you're grabbing your piece of paper, you want to number from one to seven. The one to seven is going to represent the seven daily acts of courage that we just talked about. So you're numbering your paper one to seven and then here's what we're going to do. When we talk about each act, I want you to think about on a scale of one to seven, one being the weakest, seven being the strongest, you're going to rate yourself to find your courage quotient. Kevin Number one, do you have vision, goals, and dreams? Then you may have the first act of courage, the courage to dream and to express it. Kathy So go ahead and rate yourself on the courage to dream. Kevin Number two, do you have the ability to see truth and not have blinders on? Then you may have the second act of courage, the courage to see reality. Kathy Rate yourself from one to seven on the ability to see truth. Kevin Number three, do you have the ability to speak up, speak truth to power and confront? Perhaps you have the third act of courage, the courage to confront. Kathy What's your score on the courage to confront? Write it down. Kevin Number four, maybe you are able to take critique and constructive criticism well. Then you may have the fourth act of courage, the courage to be confronted. Kathy Rate yourself on how well you can be confronted. Kevin Number five, are you able to step into the unknown and take risks? Then maybe you're able to exercise the fifth act of courage, the courage to learn and grow. Kathy How do you score on stepping into the unknown and taking risks? Kevin Number six, perhaps you have the ability to be vulnerable with others, tell the truth of your story, and also ask for help. This exercise is the sixth act of courage, the courage to be vulnerable. Kathy Rate your vulnerability score now. Kevin And number seven, maybe you have practiced the ability to step up and follow through. Then you are exercising the seventh act of courage, the courage to act. Kathy Rate your score for the seventh act of courage, the courage to act. So good job, everyone. What's your overall courage quotient? As you score yourself, which act of courage came easiest for you? And which one do you need some work on this week? Thanks so much for joining us for another episode of "Coping" and whatever you may be coping with, blessings to you.

Kathy and Kevin discuss the topic of courage and explore its true meaning beyond the common misconceptions. Reframing the perception of courage as not just physical bravery but as the ability to stay true to one's desires and walk one's own path despite fears or external pressures is important on your path to becoming healthy. Kathy Welcome back everyone for another episode of “Coping”. Kevin That's right. So today we're going to talk about a new topic, something that we just explored in a recent spring retreat that you led. Kathy Yes, our spring retreat was titled, Take Courage. Kevin That's right. So I wonder, what comes to mind when we think of courage? What does that word mean? Kathy That's a great question. What do you think? Kevin Well, when I think of courage, I think about somebody who faces their fears. I also think about gladiators in ancient Rome, folks who were fighting for survival and showing brute force and physical strength, sort of like the idea that comes to mind for me. Kathy Yeah, there's so much to explore with this topic of courage. Let's get started. Kathy So, as we mentioned, our topic today is courage. A recent retreat was Take Courage. And when I did some research exploring the root of the word courage, I found something really interesting. So, the Latin word from courage comes from the word 'core'. And the earliest forms of the word, you know, courage had a different definition than it does today. Courage actually meant to speak one's mind by telling all one's heart. Kevin Oh, fascinating. I did not know that. So I guess that begs the question, how is courage related to telling one's story or, as the quote says, to speak one's mind and telling their heart? How are those things related to telling your story? Kathy Sure. So what I think is that the true definition of courage has to do with the ability of us being vulnerable and authentic in the telling of our stories. Kevin Say more about what it means to speak your heart. Kathy So I would say that when we speak our hearts, we're listening to what the truths are that we hold dear. But what often happens is the noise of our world clouds that out, other people's expectations, us wanting to people please, us not wanting to let others down. We don't get to live our truth because of all of the noise and the anxiety surrounding what other people want for us. But when we get to the core of what we actually desire and care about is being able to speak our truths. Kevin Hmm. What I hear you saying is that speaking your heart is getting honest with yourself about what your desires are, your hopes, your dreams are, as opposed to all the expectations, all of the outward distractions and things that pull us one way or the other, but to stay true to our path where we want to go, where we feel like we're being led. Kathy Absolutely. Has that been a struggle for you? Kevin I've definitely struggled with that I am the type of person that people pleases and lives a life seeking out external affirmation and wanting to please others around me and seeking that validation from others but in the in the times where I feel most discontent it's the times that I'm seeking the most external validation and approval from others and in the times where I've been most satisfied or have been most confident or have made the hardest decisions in my life and the best ones are the times that I decided to stay true to my heart to speak my truth and to walk that path. Kathy Mm-hmm, and that is the essence of courage is what you're describing Kevin I have a feeling there's some myths around courage. Can you tell us a little bit about some of the misconceptions and the myths surrounding the idea of courage? Kathy Sure, so the first myth that we often hear is, "I don't feel courageous." Kevin Right. Kathy And I can think back to times in my own life when I did courageous acts and in the midst of it, wasn't feeling particularly courageous or brave or strong, but I was still moving forward into those actions which others would describe as courageous. I wonder, I know that you have had many courageous acts in your life. Were you feeling courage in those moments and spaces? Kevin Hmm, In the times where I was appearing in the world as most courageous were the times that I felt like I had no other option, that I had to do the brave thing because it was the only thing I was faced with an impossible circumstance and was left with no other choice but to be courageous, that I had to face some of the challenges in my life and take them head on. I don't know if it was courage in my traditional understanding of courage of being brave and facing my fears as much as it was looking internally to my heart and coming to terms with what I wanted for my life and seeking that. So I think the definition that you described today, I would say yeah, I was courageous, although I didn't feel courageous. Kathy And you're explaining really well the truth that can debunk this myth that you don't feel courageous is that courage is an action, not a feeling. And one of my favorite quotes about this comes from Sir Winston Churchill who said, "Fear is a reaction, courage is a decision." Kevin Hmm, that resonates with the times in my life where I needed courage the most. There was less about me feeling it was the right thing to do or feeling brave or feeling strong or courageous It was more about I just I have to I have to move forward and I don't feel confident in this decision, but I'm gonna move this way in faith and just trust that I'm doing the best that I can with what I have right now and then looking back seeing how courageous some of those actions were even though the feeling wasn't there. It's almost as if to say I didn't have the feeling but once I took the action the feeling followed. Kathy Yes, so you've unlocked one of the keys to courage is at that moment of decision between fear and courage, you acknowledged the fear, but you set it aside because in your heart of hearts, you wanted to choose the courageous thing. Kevin Yeah, and I think that that leads us to another myth about courage, and that courage is the absence of fear. I think that fear and courage actually can coexist within us. We are complex beings. We're not feeling just one distinct feeling at a time. It's often layers and layers of feelings. And this reminds me of the quote from one of our favorite authors, Brene Brown, who says it best. She says, "courage and fear are not mutually exclusive. Most of us feel brave and afraid at the exact same time." This has been so true in my life. What about for you? Kathy I love this quote. It's so freeing for all of us because that means that I don't have to not be afraid to be courageous. I just need to acknowledge the fear, set that aside and take the step of faith. So when you described in your life feeling like you had another choice. Well, you did have a choice: you had a choice to stay in fear but instead you took the step and that just shows that fear and courage are in the same spaces and we think we don't have a choice, but we always do. Kevin I would even go further and say that it wasn't even a matter of setting the fear aside or choosing courage over fear, some of the cliches in our society around being brave. I think it was more about choosing action in the face of fear, that I wasn't going to let the fear paralyze me and hold me back, that in the face of fear, and because of fear, I was going to move forward and find a way to a greater sense of peace, that doing nothing was part of what was contributing to my fear and being paralyzed. And I would much rather be moving forward in pain and struggle than to be locked in fear, which is, for me, just as painful as the thing that I don't want to do. Kathy Yeah, it's a great way to explain it and I think speaking of fear and paralysis of fear another myth that we often hear is, "well, I don't like taking risks". So, if you don't like taking risks, how does courage play into that? I myself don't like taking risks. Kevin Yeah, no, I know that you are risk-averse, you're very practical and wanting to slow down, be methodical. It's what makes us great partners because I am the opposite. I'm ready to take a risk that's going to help us to level up and to better our circumstances. But based on what we're talking about today, risk taking as it relates to courage is more about getting honest with those fears inside of us and the things that are holding us back. Kathy Yes, I think that that allows courage to become more accessible for us when we frame it in that way. And so the last myth that we want to address today is the "I don't know how to be courageous". In other words, I don't know what everyday courage looks like. What do you say to that? Kevin Yeah, I think just based on our conversation today, it's time that we reframe our understanding of courage and the images of people that we have being courageous. I have a feeling my definition of courage in the gladiator in the coliseum is not the best picture of what real courage looks like and has looked like in my life. Kevin And so if I have that image of courage, I have a feeling that many people have these gladiator images of courage, and we need to have a different understanding of what courage looks like. And so if we get honest with ourselves and what's happening internally inside of us, and that's courageous, maybe we just look to the mentors in our life, the friends in our life who have made hard decisions, who have overcome their own insecurities and have walked their own path. Kathy Yeah, I think that's an excellent point. We began our Spring retreat with talking about the models of courage and thinking about your family of origin, what did you see, what did courage look like for you growing up? Kathy I think it's a really important piece to living a courageous life every day. And another answer to the question of "I don't know what courage looks like every day" is this quote from Maya Angelou that she says, "you develop courage by doing courageous things, small things, but things that cost you some exertion." So the good news is that courage can be practiced. And it's just one small step at a time. And I think that can bring us all hope today. Kevin And so today we'll end our episode with a peaceful meditation by one of our newest Be Well coaches, Felice St. John. And so wherever you are today, we say blessings to you. Felice St. John Sitting comfortably or lying down with your eyes closed, let's begin by becoming aware of the breath. Breathing in slowly through your nose and out through your mouth. Just taking your time to connect with your breath and be with yourself throughout this meditation. Feel the breath as it enters with a cool feeling and then warming as it gently travels down into the lungs. Fill the lungs with a deep inhale, bringing in energy, vitality, connecting you back to source energy, the life force, God, the universe. As you exhale, feel the body releasing toxins and stress and any negativity that has accumulated in your body. Stay with this breath, focusing on the feeling of deep peace, deep inhalations and exhalations at your own pace. Keep with your breath as we continue. What are you holding on to that you need to let go of and release? Conjure an image for that. See it clearly and then let it go. Maybe it's a specific image or a color or a feeling. Maybe you want to gently take that image from your mind's eye and crumple it up and toss it away to the side. Or maybe it's an image in a cloud and you want to give a big deep exhalation and let that image just blow away. Feel the energy of release in your body and how that creates new space for a new image of where you are heading. See that image brightly and vividly in your mind. Become aware of the warmth and tingling of every cell in your body as you focus deeply on that new image, that new color. Feel it in your body. Look at that image in your mind's eye, focusing on it. Feel the energy that is in the extended environment in every part of nature and in every living thing that is working for you and for what you are creating space for. Bring all those energies together and feel them as one. Visualize all of that thriving energy shining brightly as the sun. Bring the shining glow of bright energy over the crown of your head. Let it hover there for a moment and then feel it starting to travel down into your body from the top of your head. Slowly going down into your face and neck, traveling down into the shoulders all the way down into your arms and down into your fingers. Feel that healing energy and light going down from your chest all the way down your back, your abdomen into your hips. Feel it continue traveling down your legs all the way down to your toes. Your whole body is now filled with divine healing light and energy, thriving energy. Allow that healing energy to completely fill any physical area that needs healing energy anywhere in your body. Feel it warming, healing and expanding through that area with a bright glow. Allow the healing light to bring peace and healing to any emotional issues or traumas. Let it fill the gaps where the old image took up space. Bring your awareness to any intentions or desires that you may have to your new image. Holding the thoughts of those intentions or desires as you allow the healing energy to bring your deepest desires to life and your intentions into reality. Feel your connection to divine energy and light and know that all is one. Stay with this deep, relaxing, peaceful feeling of bliss. Inhaling and exhaling slowly. Knowing that you are at peace and that you can tap into this peace anytime you need to, it is accessible to you. Take a few more deep breaths and when you are ready, you may slowly open your eyes and feel this deep sense of peace that you carry with you.

Al and Kev talk about Piczle Cross: Story of Seasons Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:12: What Have We Been Up To 00:07:30: News 00:27:50: Piczle Cross: Story Of Seasons 00:43:16: Outro Links Disney Dreamlight Valley “The Laugh Floor” Update Notes Coral Island Updated Roadmap Ikonei Island Console Versions Farm Folks Conveyor Belts Farming Simulator Kids Trailer Minami Lane Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Al: Hello farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:36) Al: My name is Al, and we are here today to talk about Mario- wait, no, that was last week. (0:00:38) Kevin: and my name is Kevin yeah I mean we could no no we’re just waiting for Princess Peach since it’s the main thing um there’s a demo if you play it you know what it is and you can maybe have your fill okay well okay well okay all right well yeah all right well let me know when you do play though Thank you for the question. (0:00:46) Al: There’s not much to talk about just now. (0:00:56) Al: I still haven’t played Donkey Kong vs or Mario vs Donkey Kong yet. (0:01:01) Al: I’ve been busy with other things. (0:01:07) Al: I’ve bought the game. (0:01:08) Al: I have the game. (0:01:09) Al: It’s sitting here right next to me. (0:01:10) Al: I just haven’t played it yet. (0:01:13) Al: It actually arrived while I was in the US. (0:01:23) Al: I just need to add to the clip. (0:01:25) Al: Oh, well, dude. (0:01:28) Al: Don’t you worry, we need the content. (0:01:32) Al: Awesome. (0:01:33) Al: Hi, Kevin. Welcome. We, today, we’re going to talk about (0:01:37) Al: Pixel Cross Story of Seasons, which is the new story of season themed (0:01:43) Al: nonogram or pie-cross game, however you want to call it. (0:01:46) Kevin: Yeah, it’s it’s just a big cross it’s like it’s like Kleenex right the the brand name is the thing (0:01:52) Al: Exactly, exactly. So, I believe Nonogram is the non-branded generic name for it, (0:01:54) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:59) Kevin: Yeah (0:01:59) Al: and Picross is the standard one that people know, and Pixelcross is this series. So, (0:02:04) Al: just to be confusing. So, we’re going to talk about that. Before that, we have some news. (0:02:05) Kevin: This up start (0:02:13) Al: First of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:16) Kevin: uh mostly sweating from the toilet (0:02:22) Kevin: um uh no but um what have I actually been playing um I uh no oh oh actually no big big day today I have done it I have done 152 shrines every piece of armor every same quest (0:02:40) Kevin: tonight my final showdown with Ganon too but I closed the book on Gears of the Kingdom (0:02:43) Al: Nice. (0:02:46) Kevin: very excited for that um yeah yeah fun fact i’ve actually been through that before because I was just like i’m curious what what happens if I go down here and I made it all the way to Ganon but then I got what by the the actual fights going on so um so yeah I at least have an idea of what to expect but uh now that I have a whole crew good stuff i’m looking forward to it. (0:02:48) Al: Awesome, that’s exciting. (0:03:13) Al: Fair enough (0:03:16) Kevin: It’s in a good place right now, but yeah, that’s kind of all I’ve been up to a lot. (0:03:42) Kevin: a lot of tears of the kingdom and big crush, really. (0:03:44) Kevin: What about you, Al? (0:03:45) Kevin: What you been up to? (0:03:46) Al: Yeah, I have actually been playing Pokemon. I’ve been doing, yeah, dangerous. The edge for presumably Legends, Legends Arceus, rather than Scarlet and Violet. I have been playing, (0:03:46) Kevin: Okay, I mean, I’ve gotten the itch. (0:04:05) Al: I’ve been doing the Venusaur raids, that’s what I’ve been doing. (0:04:08) Kevin: Okay. I… yeah, I mean like, um, I don’t know what it means, but right, they just don’t say who, (0:04:19) Kevin: as in what they did in Sword and Shield. Um, I don’t know if it’s because it’s kind of just following on that act, or because of the performance issues, or okay, there’s a number of reasons, I guess, (0:04:33) Kevin: but, um, I, um… (0:04:38) Kevin: I probably will go… I don’t know, I’ve missed a few of them for that mark, the collector and whatnot. (0:04:44) Kevin: Um, maybe I’ll fire… (0:04:46) Al: Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of how Pokemon like your your fellow trainers Pokemon fainting means that you just lose quicker. It feels not great, especially if you’re going online with randoms and you get one person who’s at level 50 and they get knocked out every two rounds, you’re dead and you’re dead in 30 seconds. It’s like that’s not fun. (0:04:57) Kevin: - Ah. (chuckling) (0:05:05) Kevin: oh yeah oh yeah that’s uh that’s oh that’s true see I have my brother and we play (0:05:14) Al: I feel like it kind of. (0:05:17) Al: It stops you recovering from bad strategy, right? (0:05:22) Al: Like, or it stops you recovering from bad players with good strategy. (0:05:23) Kevin: yeah (0:05:27) Al: Whereas, you know, because it’s too fast for you to be able to do anything about that. (0:05:27) Kevin: yep yeah (0:05:32) Al: Whereas in the sword and shield ones, yet them being knocked out wasn’t helping you. (0:05:37) Al: It’s not great that they’re being knocked out, but, you know, (0:05:39) Al: it wasn’t causing you an actual problem in that it was reducing the number of turns or whatever. (0:05:46) Kevin: What? Yeah, it was. (0:05:46) Al: So, not in, yeah, no, no, not in sword and shield. (0:05:47) Kevin: No, no, I’m thinking of the adventures. No, you’re right. I’m sorry. No, no, I’m thinking of the dead raid adventures. (0:05:52) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um… (0:05:52) Al: In sword and shield you had, like, was it 10 turns in total, I think, to knock it out. (0:05:57) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, you’re right. (0:05:58) Kevin: Huh. I never thought about that. (0:06:01) Kevin: That’s… (0:06:03) Kevin: That is a weird design choice. Like, I kind of get it. (0:06:06) Kevin: ‘Cause now that everyone’s kind of on their own turn and incentivizes people to, you know, actually carry their weight instead of just doing the thing. (0:06:16) Kevin: Although that might be more helpful in certain circumstances. (0:06:19) Kevin: Um, but, uh, I mean, yeah, there’s a whole discussion we could have about the design of those things. (0:06:25) Kevin: I… (0:06:27) Kevin: If they want to keep going with these raids and whatnot, I really feel they need to put a little more work into, uh… (0:06:35) Kevin: I don’t know how to best describe this. (0:06:38) Al: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like you can’t bring in a level 50 or whatever. Yeah. (0:06:39) Kevin: I guess just implementing limits or restrictions, right? Like… (0:06:44) Kevin: Rental Book. (0:06:46) Kevin: Yup, yup, you need to have a level 100 or whatever for this fight, yada yada. (0:06:52) Kevin: Um, there, yeah, there’s definitely a lot that could be done. (0:06:56) Kevin: Um, and we’ve had that conversation elsewhere, but Rental Pokemon would probably be the easiest thing to do. (0:07:02) Kevin: Here’s some Pokemon you can use for the rest. (0:07:02) Al: Yeah, I think it would be great to have not just rental Pokémon, but rental Pokémon that other people can submit. So like, you know, people like Steve and other like YouTubers and stuff could say these are the builds that I’m suggesting I think would be fantastic. (0:07:10) Kevin: Oh, that’d be great, yep. (0:07:16) Kevin: Influencers. (0:07:19) Al: But yeah, you’re right, we’ve talked about that over and over again. So I’ve been playing that and I’ve been playing Pixel Cross and that’s about it this week. Not much, not much. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yeah, alright. (0:07:30) Al: Should we talk about some news? (0:07:32) Al: So Disney Dreamlight Valley, the full patch notes for the laugh floor update right now. (0:07:33) Kevin: I guess so. We’re legally obligated to by no one. (0:07:43) Al: So we talked about this a little bit last episode, but just in that it was coming, and obviously it was going to have Monsters Inc. So they’ve detailed a bunch of stuff. The link is in the show notes. I guess a few things I’ll just pick out. They have included the two characters, Mike and Sully. (0:08:03) Al: There are a number of new items. (0:08:05) Al: They’ve got the partner statue. (0:08:08) Al: They start you with Walt and Mickey at Disneyland. (0:08:11) Kevin: Yeah. Oh, do they have it in now? Okay. (0:08:12) Al: They’ve added that in the game now. (0:08:15) Al: And of course, the armor. (0:08:17) Al: You’ve got Dreamlight armor outfit for some reason. (0:08:22) Al: A bunch of new customization, some new star paths and premium bundles. (0:08:29) Al: And Scrooge McDuck’s shop has been expanded. (0:08:32) Al: Absolutely. Yeah, one thing that really annoyed me about that game is you start up and then he’s like, “Oh, I need some money to expand my shop” and you’re like, “No, you don’t. Away and use your own money.” (0:08:36) Kevin: Give the rich duck more money. (0:08:50) Kevin: that’s on how you became a trillionaire don’t you know how capitalism works I need your money to make more money oh that’s a good one (0:08:51) Al: Ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And… (0:09:03) Al: And, of course, you can change your name in the game now. So, there we go. (0:09:10) Al: If you want the more detailed notes there in the show notes, there’s a whole bunch of bugs fixed as well, which is always good. (0:09:16) Al: Next, we have an updated roadmap for Coral Island. So, I actually coincidentally talked about this last episode as well, because I was like, “Oh, I’ve not seen the roadmap in a while.” (0:09:27) Al: They’ve detailed the next three updates coming. (0:09:32) Al: 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. (0:09:36) Al: They’ve given some detailed information on some of the things coming in 1.1, including the town rank will now go up to S, including some more story and questlines around that. (0:09:53) Al: The tourists are coming, which are the backers. (0:09:56) Al: There was a certain level of backer who could get themselves in as an NPC. (0:09:58) Kevin: Yeah, that’s, hmm, that’s, oh, I don’t, I don’t know if I like that, that’s a, that’s a weird discourse. (0:10:00) Al: coming as tourists. (0:10:02) Al: And, of course, they are not romanceable, which everybody on Twitter is mad about. (0:10:14) Al: It is a little bit, it is a little bit like, oh, these characters that are based on real people, yeah, that’s very, very weird. (0:10:23) Kevin: Mmm. Although I will say, for the people who made it in, they should be able to romance themselves. (0:10:30) Kevin: But that will stand behind. (0:10:35) Al: They’re also adding in the finale of the giant storyline, which I’m very happy with, actually (0:10:44) Al: has some story for the mare folk, which I’m very happy about because, come on, they’re adding hangouts where you can, it’s, I mean, it’s basically dates with NPCs, no, well, (0:10:52) Kevin: You couldn’t before with the mermaids? (0:10:59) Kevin: What was the point? (0:11:00) Al: with the mare folk, there was nothing, there was, you could barely talk to the mare folk, (0:11:03) Al: there was almost nothing. (0:11:03) Kevin: What was the point? (0:11:04) Al: And that was my biggest issue. (0:11:06) Al: They would just decided that was going to be post 1.0 content. (0:11:09) Al: And I don’t think it should have been, I think that this 1.1 update is what should have been (0:11:14) Al: update. That was my whole thing. (0:11:15) Kevin: Probably yeah. Oh my gosh. I’m just looking at the list. Holy mackerel. This should have been 1.0 (0:11:21) Al: I suspect it was a money thing, but. (0:11:24) Kevin: Probably in game dev money matters what? (0:11:32) Al: Yeah, and they’re adding Thai to the game as well. (0:11:38) Al: So I was going to say, if you speak Thai and not English, you’re not going to hear me say that. (0:11:40) Kevin: Okay, um (0:11:44) Al: But there you go. (0:11:45) Kevin: Well, yeah There’s one I have a question about what does what does (0:11:51) Kevin: improvements to the hat system mean what does that mean? (0:11:54) Al: So when you wear a hat, it’s limited on what hairstyles you can have for that. (0:12:02) Kevin: Oh gosh, I hate that. I hate that so much. As someone with long hair, I often get the short end of that stick in games. Sword and Shield, I could wear hats with my actual hairstyle and it killed me. They’re great hats. Unite, just inside. Pokemon Unite is really bad because and hats are considered the same thing, you can’t actually separate them. (0:12:03) Al: So, yeah. (0:12:32) Kevin: Um, save for a few instances, but a lot of the hats come with hair and you do. (0:12:39) Kevin: Oh, that that’s a, that’s one that that’s a very niche and specific thing that really gets under my skin. (0:12:44) Al: Yeah, it gets worse. So I believe until this new update, if you were wearing a hat, you just wouldn’t have any hair. So now they’re adding two hairstyles for hats. I’m quite happy about it personally, because the other thing that games quite often miss with hair is bald options. And they’ll go like, “Oh, here’s a buzz cut,” or whatever, but they’ll very rarely have bald, whereas this did have bald from the start. (0:12:51) Kevin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. (0:12:57) Kevin: Okay. Well, AB steps. I wouldn’t call it. (0:13:08) Kevin: Okay. True. True. (0:13:14) Al: And we’ll actually have bald for hats. So a rare win for the bald heads. Cool. So yeah. (0:13:21) Kevin: Okay, there you go (0:13:27) Al: Oh, they’re also adding ocean farming and ranching. I’m very intrigued to see what… (0:13:30) Kevin: That’s a big one. (0:13:32) Kevin: Wait, what are you ranching? (0:13:34) Al: I don’t know. They’ve not detailed that yet, so I believe they’re going to talk about that in the next monthly update. So we’ll bring that when it comes. But yeah, I’m intrigued (0:13:44) Al: to see what they’re adding there. Like maybe sharks? Do you get to ranch sharks, maybe? (0:13:47) Kevin: mmm merfolk well you’re not wrong or at least can we get a revolutionary merperson who’s against the ranching I want some you know a little mermaid under (0:13:52) Al: Sounds like slavery. (0:14:14) Al: ICONI Island, they have said that their PlayStation Xbox versions are coming at the end of March. (0:14:26) Kevin: alright that game has very pretty art style only to check it out and not check it out but uh… (0:14:34) Kevin: now that we get consoles uh… (0:14:36) Kevin: oh he’s already on switch and paid down (0:14:38) Al: it is already on switch I believe oh wait maybe it’s not no it’s not on switch yet but they haven’t said anything about switch so who knows if they’ll ever actually come to switch because the this console update just (0:14:47) Kevin: okay well I’ll take (0:14:52) Kevin: mop-mop (0:14:57) Kevin: well I still might there’s a better chance I’ll check it out stuff oh the art isn’t the in-game visuals don’t match the art I’m not 100% you know what I mean all right but either way I’m more likely for me to check it out I do like (0:15:17) Kevin: having from up in the background there (0:15:23) Al: FarmFolks, they are adding quite, I think this is quite wild, their conveyor system. (0:15:31) Al: Have you watched the video on this, Kevin? (0:15:33) Kevin: Yes, it looks awesome. (0:15:35) Kevin: It looks like a monorail system. (0:15:36) Al: Yes, that’s exactly what it is. (0:15:38) Kevin: That’s what I’d call it. (0:15:40) Al: It’s like a monorail system with these trays that are going along this insane monorail system. (0:15:47) Al: And obviously the one they’ve built in the video is not what you would actually do, because is very very long and it doesn’t go (0:15:53) Al: anywhere, it just wiggles around. But I think they’re just trying to show how big and expansive it can be if you want it to be. So I am suddenly very interested in this game. (0:15:55) Kevin: yeah (0:15:59) Kevin: Yeah (0:16:03) Kevin: Right now you design your own roller coaster system for your crops or whatever (0:16:10) Kevin: Making up for that awful name (0:16:13) Al: Well, yeah. There are worse names, but yeah, it’s not a great- (0:16:16) Kevin: Well, okay, yes, yes, you’re right but um, yeah - Yeah. (0:16:26) Kevin: Oh, yeah, that looks fun. (0:16:27) Kevin: That’s a great looking monorail mare system. (0:16:33) Kevin: Kind of like Southfield reminds me of just the openness of it, (0:16:39) Al: Yeah, yeah. I forget, is this game out at all yet? It is not. I was wondering whether it was an early access one. No, it’s nothing. Nothing like that. And I don’t think we have (0:16:52) Kevin: Oh, well, looks that’s a good. (0:17:00) Kevin: I like that. (0:17:06) Kevin: I like how it looks with the art styles okay the (0:17:11) Kevin: My I know I’m I’m taking some interest in this. Wow the the person on their website. That’s just tracer from overwatch. Wow. Okay, um (0:17:20) Al: But in Fortnite style. (0:17:22) Kevin: But (0:17:26) Kevin: When will we get disney dreamland across fortnite (0:17:32) Al: Which way round, like… (0:17:33) Kevin: it’s closer than you think but you know what it could (0:17:36) Kevin: be either and or I don’t think so because there’s an announcement that they made an agreement they’re gonna put a whole universe in it for it like (0:17:38) Al: Because I feel like there have been Disney characters in Fortnite. (0:17:48) Al: - Yeah, but that’s. (0:17:51) Kevin: I mean I guess there’s the Marvel and Star Wars stuff but I don’t know if Disney Cooper I don’t think Mickey Minuss has been in Fortnite (0:17:58) Al: No, it looks like you’re right. (0:17:59) Al: It looks like they haven’t actually got any Disney proper characters in there. (0:18:04) Al: Just just the other the other companies they own. (0:18:12) Al: All right, Farming Simulator Kids, we have a release date (0:18:16) Al: for this is coming on the 26th of March. (0:18:20) Al: So just just under a month to go. (0:18:24) Al: We also know we have this trailer. (0:18:26) Al: have some sort of (0:18:28) Al: idea of the actual gameplay and it looks kind of minigame-esque, very much definitely looks like a kids game, I can see why it’s farming simulator kids. (0:18:40) Kevin: Yeah, there’s, uh, there’s a lot we can talk about here in my, uh, I mean, okay, first of all, it does, it’s not your boring, realistic, uh, no, not boring, but it’s not the standard, realistic farming simulator, it actually has a good, friendly style. (0:19:00) Kevin: Um, I think this is actually a very clever idea. (0:19:05) Kevin: Um, I, I think it’s your towards. (0:19:10) Kevin: It’s like, particularly young kids, um, because there’s like, basic maths and, and sorts of mini games. (0:19:20) Kevin: It’s also very clearly designed for tablets, which is a very common kid. (0:19:26) Kevin: Here’s your tablet thing now. (0:19:28) Kevin: Um, uh, I, I appreciate when there are, you know, genuine efforts to make quality type game (0:19:40) Kevin: kids, even as young as this demographic. (0:19:43) Kevin: Um, and it feels like that’s, uh, that’s how it’s going on here. (0:19:48) Kevin: Um, and, uh, it’s a smart move. (0:19:51) Kevin: Hook ’em on, hook ’em early to the Farm Simulator brand. (0:19:52) Al: Yeah, on one hand, it’s definitely, it looks very kid-friendly and very, it looks like it could be fun, while kind of getting some kind of ideas towards realistic farming in that it taught, you know, it’s trying to show you like the different stages and then what you do with these things. But it feels a little bit weird in that farming simulators thing is they are the realistic farming simulator. (0:20:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I will say it is unexpected. I’ll say that. But I, I think it’s a clever. (0:20:22) Al: This is not in any way a realistic farming simulator. (0:20:28) Al: So, I don’t know, it feels a little bit weird (0:20:40) Kevin: I think it’s a good way of going about it right because like, I don’t think farming’s in the head. (0:20:48) Kevin: young, demographic feel, um, and there’s (0:20:52) Kevin: little bits like the actual farming aspects, right? (0:20:56) Kevin: The crops and the, and I’m on the livestock are relatively realistic, right? (0:21:02) Kevin: They’re not cartoony. (0:21:04) Al: Yeah, they’re oversimplified, though. That’s the point, right? I think it’s only as realistic as other farming sims, but I don’t know. I need to try it to see that, because I don’t know if that’s actually the case. (0:21:04) Kevin: Um, they’re in the, whatever art style it’s in, but it is still. (0:21:17) Kevin: I guess so. (0:21:20) Kevin: Yeah, I (0:21:23) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot going on here too. There’s the omics running shop you feed people sandwiches from (0:21:30) Kevin: Shirley violet those are the exact shippers early by the (0:21:36) Kevin: You do the farms you the you know the actual farming and livestock, but there’s like indoor games and things like that (0:21:43) Kevin: For some reason dragging a kid into a bathtub (0:21:48) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know there’s I’m not surprised right farming simulator clearly has money, so um (0:21:55) Kevin: and I still think it’s a (0:21:59) Kevin: Good idea, and I think it’s it’s a pretty alright looking kid’s game (0:22:04) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:22:05) Kevin: Although the the static followed by the aliens on the TV freaks me out a little that’s that’s some creepy harvest moon nonsense They’re pulling there (0:22:14) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:22:16) Al: I’ll need to try this out to get Craig to try it and and see what it’s like. (0:22:21) Al: And last but not least, in the news, we have a new game, Minami Lane. (0:22:28) Al: Do you think it’s Minami? (0:22:30) Al: Minami. (0:22:30) Kevin: Sure, oh wait, it’s not Miami, it is Miami. (0:22:33) Al: Yeah, it does. (0:22:34) Al: So this game has just come out. (0:22:37) Kevin: Yeah. (0:22:41) Kevin: It’s not the GTA VI simulator, farming simulator. (0:22:46) Al: It came out yesterday, I think, as we were recording, so a week ago. (0:22:51) Al: The little blurb on it is, “Welcome to Minami Lane. (0:22:54) Al: Build your own street in this tiny, cosy, casual management sim. (0:22:59) Al: Unlock and customize buildings, manage your shops, and maximise the happiness of your (0:23:04) Al: villagers to complete quests and fill your street with (0:23:09) Kevin: Okay, so it, uh, it feels very, um, it’s the, the bunny game and the can’t game. (0:23:19) Kevin: When would you guys talk about before or wherever you talk about? (0:23:20) Al: Mm. Yes. Um, Usagi Shima and, uh, what’s it called? (0:23:23) Kevin: Yeah. (0:23:27) Kevin: That goes on the, yeah, it feels very much in that vein, probably (0:23:32) Kevin: largely because of the art style and the kind of isometric view. (0:23:39) Kevin: I mean, it’s really just centralized on this one street, right? (0:23:43) Kevin: So, um, uh, overall, but you like how it looks overall. (0:23:51) Kevin: Um, I think the art style is, it’s charming. (0:23:56) Kevin: It’s kind of old story book-ish feel. (0:24:00) Kevin: I don’t know how to describe that better. (0:24:02) Kevin: Um, I like the customizability options it looks like, and there’s some goofies. (0:24:09) Kevin: Like a Capa walking around. (0:24:11) Kevin: There’s cats that you can pet. (0:24:13) Kevin: Um, I think it’s cute. (0:24:15) Kevin: This feels like what I would have wanted from Garden Galaxy. (0:24:19) Al: Yeah, I feel like this is kind of, because I’ve talked about how I used to really like (0:24:27) Al: city building games and stuff, but then they got really complicated and I don’t like that anymore. (0:24:29) Kevin: Mm-hmm [laughter] (0:24:35) Al: But this feels like it’s simple enough that I could enjoy it, but complicated enough that it’s yeah, not just Garden Galaxy, it’s not just like put things down where you want them to. (0:24:49) Al: Like there’s actually a purpose to that and you’re trying to do something. (0:24:50) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah, there’s little bits of feedback like you’re customizing your ramen that you sell in the shop. That’s cute. Yeah, no, I agree. It’s striking a nice balance of actually having stuff to do or feels like but not overwhelming you with all the crazy, mighty aspects of those crazy city builders. (0:25:16) Al: - Yeah, and it’s super cheap. (0:25:20) Kevin: Let’s see, oh, it released, it’s already out, how much should we take? (0:25:23) Kevin: Wow, it’s like five bucks, yeah, you’re right, roughly, yeah. (0:25:28) Kevin: I’ll have to check that out, probably, maybe, I don’t know. (0:25:32) Al: No, no promises. Never any promises. Yeah, I’m very tempted to try this out. (0:25:34) Kevin: It looks cute, no promises. (0:25:42) Kevin: There’s a yokai tree, wait, what does that mean? (0:25:46) Kevin: Is that why there’s a cat by walking around? (0:25:46) Al: It’s a tree with yokai, obviously. I also like how it starts out small, and when it starts out small, it’s like the actual area you have is small. So you don’t have like, (0:25:48) Kevin: Bye. (0:25:58) Al: One of the things about city builders quite often is you have this massive area. (0:26:02) Al: But you can only use a tiny bit of it but you still have to see everything whereas this is like here it focuses only on the area you have and everything else is nothing right it’s like this is the only thing that exists to you this is this is your focus and then as more areas become available to you then they become visible in the game which I really like (0:26:04) Kevin: Mm-hmm, right? (0:26:16) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:18) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:22) Kevin: Right, right, yeah (0:26:25) Kevin: Yeah (0:26:27) Kevin: All the customization options too looks like (0:26:29) Al: Or you can build tree houses. (0:26:31) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s what the yokai trees for (0:26:37) Kevin: Yeah, oh there you go, there’s your Boba cafe, oh shoot they got tenuki it’s off brand (0:26:43) Kevin: Tom Nook was running everything (0:26:46) Kevin: I (0:26:50) Kevin: This is tempting me, I won’t lie. I might actually look into it. He’s on the steam probably on the steam. It’s clickin (0:26:58) Kevin: Let’s team game on the odd bet it to find an audience on switch (0:27:02) Al: It is, it is only on Steam, yeah. (0:27:03) Kevin: Developers names you (0:27:05) Al: I can’t see any indication. (0:27:06) Kevin: Yeah, all right (0:27:10) Kevin: They’re probably not planning it now until the money rolls in (0:27:16) Kevin: Yeah, but man check it out folks Minami Lane. It’s cute (0:27:20) Kevin: If you like the soggy, I think whatever the thing was (0:27:24) Al: Usagi, Usagi Shima and Neko Atsumi, which by the way, we should probably mention, I guess, Neko Atsumi, they’re making a new, a new one, a second Neko. (0:27:26) Kevin: Thank you, there you go you like those check it out (0:27:37) Kevin: Yeah, they said all mad people like that for those bunnies we can’t let them steal our thunder (0:27:42) Al: Cool. That’s the news. Woo. So we are going to talk about what is definitely a farming game. Pixel cross story of season. (0:27:48) Kevin: Whoo (0:27:58) Kevin: You’re making things grow in your mind, Al. (0:28:05) Kevin: Okay, so first off, I mean simple. (0:28:08) Al: Yes, how to explain this game. (0:28:14) Kevin: Okay, you do know Picross, okay now that, but now put Story of Seasons on it, there you go. (0:28:20) Al: Yeah, I mean, so, so, yeah, so let’s let’s start out with, I mean, it is what you think is it’s it’s a nonogram, it’s a pie cross, whatever you want to call it. That is what it is. That is the game. But what’s quite interesting is that they have built a kind of self-creating farm in. (0:28:21) Kevin: This is the game. (0:28:23) Kevin: Guess what, I like both of those, it’s a good game. (0:28:50) Al: I’m not 100% sure exactly what’s happening, but I’m halfway through summer and I’ve not done that many puzzles. (0:28:53) Kevin: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:29:08) Kevin: I thought it was one day per puzzle too, but you might be right. I don’t know. (0:29:18) Al: a few more days than I have puzzles done. (0:29:20) Kevin: Hmm (0:29:20) Al: But that aside, that aside, as you progress, you have your two, they’re like the horror, (0:29:32) Al: well, the story of seasons characters, the main ones. The harvest, yeah, but in 3D, (0:29:35) Kevin: the og harvest moon protagonists (0:29:39) Al: which is that they’ve recreated them in 3D, they are just going about doing a farm behind you. (0:29:45) Al: Now, they’re very slow, I would not take two seasons to start. (0:29:50) Al: Planting some seeds. But, I think it’s cute. (0:29:56) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:29:58) Kevin: OK, let me take this to the back here. (0:30:00) Kevin: How much experience do you have with pickers and all? (0:30:03) Al: Oh, pretty decent amount, yeah. I’ve played a good chunk of the official progress ones. (0:30:05) Kevin: OK. (0:30:09) Al: I’ve played some many other ones. I had an app on my phone for a while doing some nonogram. (0:30:12) Kevin: Mm-hmm okay okay um that’s uh well you know because yeah that that’s the game right so if you’re you listener enjoy it you will enjoy this game undoubtedly so I think there’s two things we can look at it here first all the the story of seasons aspect of it because yeah that’s going on in the background but you’re just seeing it whenever you go back to the main menu. (0:30:16) Al: Yeah, you know, the usual. (0:30:42) Kevin: You can imagine with these themed puzzle games, all the puzzles are story of season related, right? (0:30:44) Al: Yeah. (0:30:46) Al: No, I’m actually looking at it right now. (0:30:48) Al: It’s completely paused while you’re doing puzzles. (0:31:06) Kevin: Your puzzles are going to be turnip and watering cans and characters from the story of season games. (0:31:12) Kevin: In fact, they have what’s called an almanac where you can just basically go through all the characters and stuff once you complete their puzzles, you get art and information on them and whatnot. (0:31:26) Kevin: And so it’s very much a story of seasons celebration type game as well, right? A lot more condensed, but it’s a fun little Hall of Fame. (0:31:41) Kevin: And on top of that. (0:31:42) Kevin: When big advantage it has over other (0:31:45) Kevin: The cross games you get that wonderful wonderful story of season soundtrack. They have a (0:31:52) Kevin: sampling from different games (0:31:55) Kevin: Um, and I really enjoy it, especially the wonderful life ones (0:31:59) Kevin: those those (0:32:02) Kevin: I (0:32:06) Al: I’m shocked, I’m shocked. (0:32:06) Kevin: So, yeah, that’s right (0:32:10) Kevin: So, you know, I give it thumbs up on (0:32:12) Kevin: that aspect from this little tribute game, right? (0:32:16) Kevin: But now looking at it, getting a little more in depth here from the cross side of it. (0:32:24) Kevin: I’m actually really surprised and pleased by how much of a control you can have over there. (0:32:32) Kevin: They give you a lot of accessibility and options to help deal with the puzzles. (0:32:36) Kevin: There’s color indicators to help you kind of see. (0:32:42) Kevin: There’s a clue you can look at here, or you’ve completed this row, or autofill empty spaces, etc. (0:32:52) Kevin: There’s a lot of options in my opinion, or at least compared to the ones I’ve played. (0:32:58) Kevin: And I think that’s cool. (0:33:00) Kevin: Me being who I am, I turn them all off, and I have just the grid with black and white numbers, (0:33:06) Kevin: and I go at it like that. (0:33:10) Kevin: because that’s how I like to play playgrounds, (0:33:11) Kevin: but, (0:33:12) Kevin: what, for people who maybe don’t enjoy it as much like I do in my crazy, miserable style, (0:33:20) Kevin: they offer a lot for that and, in fact, it’s the default. (0:33:24) Kevin: They ease your way into it, which I appreciate. (0:33:30) Kevin: I don’t know how many puzzles there are, but I feel like there’s probably a lot. (0:33:35) Al: There are a lot because I think there’s is it 30 on the first screen and then there are multiple screens and then there’s also 25 on the first screen but then but then there’s a good like seven or eight pages and then there’s also the mosaic ones as well that you build up as you go so yeah there’s quite a few. (0:33:42) Kevin: I… yeah, I think it’s 25 on the first… is it 30? 25, 30, one of them. (0:33:55) Kevin: Yep, the collage ones where you, you know, you do your different pictures, or different puzzles that form one big picture altogether, and I appreciate that, right? (0:34:09) Kevin: I played Pokemon Picross, which did a similar mechanic, and I’ve always found that a lot of fun. (0:34:15) Kevin: A clever way of doing, you know, a nice big picture that you can’t quite see. (0:34:22) Kevin: I, um, yeah, I mean. (0:34:25) Kevin: I don’t know, it’s- the game maybe feels small because it only has like two screens, basically, the puzzle screen and the main menu, but… (0:34:34) Al: I think, I mean, if you’re not used to Picross games, I can understand why you might think it was small, right? But like, I don’t know about you, but like, compared to most Picross games, it feels pretty standard. Size-wise. (0:34:48) Kevin: I guess so like I’m trying to think maybe I haven’t played as many as I like I (0:34:55) Kevin: Say the 3d ones I played Pokemon pick cross played Mario’s pick cross I’m trying to think I can’t remember the last time I played up across like s game or whatever. Um, so maybe you’re right (0:35:05) Kevin: but either way, it’s not really necessary because (0:35:08) Kevin: It’s just (0:35:14) Kevin: I (0:35:16) Kevin: I’m curious to see if… (0:35:19) Kevin: you know, once you complete certain sections from the almanac or collections or whatever, I’m curious to see if there’s any more. (0:35:26) Kevin: But, you know, all that’s just sprinkles on top. (0:35:30) Kevin: Yeah, what can I say? Spoolcross is really good, right? Like, it’s hard to critique it because it is what it is, right? (0:35:36) Kevin: It’s like Tetris, you know, Tetris. (0:35:38) Al: Yeah, I mean I also I really like the characters building away your farm in the background. (0:35:49) Al: I think it’s a really fun addition that makes it, like this is what makes it a story of seasons one, rather than just it’s across but also they’re all farming related, right? (0:35:52) Kevin: It is. Yeah. (0:35:58) Kevin: For. (0:36:01) Al: I mean obviously they’ve got some of the characters as them but come on. (0:36:02) Kevin: For. (0:36:06) Kevin: Yeah, you know, okay. (0:36:08) Al: So, I just double-checked there are 270 main ones and then there are five more collages which all have like 10 to 20 in them. (0:36:12) Kevin: Okay, I do. (0:36:16) Kevin: - That’s okay, yeah, that’s a good chunk, I appreciate that. (0:36:22) Kevin: All right, the bunch. (0:36:29) Kevin: Yeah, it’s something like that. (0:36:32) Kevin: Okay, one thing I will say, I do wish, because you’re right, (0:36:37) Kevin: the building up of the farm in the background, I think it’s cute and charming, right? (0:36:47) Kevin: I do wish they put it a little more up front. (0:36:50) Kevin: Like. (0:36:52) Kevin: I don’t know like maybe clearly saying, okay, complete three puzzles and you upgrade your barn or you get a cow in the background or whatever. (0:37:02) Al: Yeah. I’m actually wondering whether it might be time based, like real time based, or like the number of days you go in, because I just feel like I’m halfway through summer and they’re still breaking rocks. And I just, I feel like, I mean, I’ve basically only been playing it today, right? I haven’t, I haven’t played it before today. It only came out, what, two days ago. So I didn’t play it yesterday or the day before I played it today. So I, and (0:37:07) Kevin: I’m, yeah, that’s likely. (0:37:23) Kevin: Yeah. (0:37:28) Kevin: Yeah. (0:37:33) Al: it’s like most of these games designed to be play a few a day, then put it down. And so therefore I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s how they built up the farm is because that’s how they expect most people to play. It’s a couple of times a day. So each day the farm (0:37:39) Kevin: Yeah, I’m sure but those (0:37:52) Kevin: okay you know what that makes a lot of sense and you’re probably right and they’re also wrong because they should be wandering to the maniacs like me who just retreat and and just play pick rocks for hours and hours (0:37:56) Al: Yeah, I think this is the only game we could potentially cover this quickly after it came out, right? Two days. Two days and we’re already recording a podcast about it. I don’t think we’ve done that for any game. It is absolutely wild that we’ve done that. But it’ll be interesting. (0:38:16) Kevin: Well, when Story of Seasons Tetris comes out, we’ll do the same. (0:38:20) Al: We’ll check in. We’ll definitely check in. (0:38:26) Al: And in the future to see if it’s gone any further. Did you play in the last two days as well as today? What are your characters doing? Open up. (0:38:33) Kevin: Yes, I played. I haven’t played today, but I played yesterday and the day before um (0:38:39) Kevin: Um I think they’re roughly at the same place where you said I’m also I (0:38:44) Kevin: in summer I don’t recall how far I’m into it, but I spent some a lot of time in the (0:38:49) Kevin: the collage puzzle - (0:38:52) Kevin: But they’re I think they planted some seeds at this point (0:38:58) Al: See, mine haven’t. Nope, no seeds planted at all, so I, that does feel to me like it’s, (0:39:03) Kevin: I (0:39:06) Al: so I’ve finished. I’ve, yeah. (0:39:07) Kevin: Could be wrong. I might be misremembering um (0:39:11) Kevin: Like us like we said it’s only like when you go to the main menu when you see it right um so sometimes I’m not even paying that much attention. I’m (0:39:18) Kevin: They sometimes just looks like they’re just running around and just smashing stuff because that’s that was a lot of it at the beginning (0:39:25) Kevin: But I probably will stick with it, and I’m curious to see you know how big it will get (0:39:32) Kevin: It would have been (0:39:33) Kevin: I think it would have been a little fun to have a little more flourish during the actual puzzle - not inside the grid or anything But just maybe have the character standing around looking at the puzzle doing any moat or an action when something happens. You know what I mean? (0:39:48) Al: Yeah, yeah, that could have been fun. (0:39:50) Kevin: Just just a little something like that, right and and maybe introduce some other characters from the games Right because you have the almond I can that the puzzles or whatnot But it’d be nice to see him just hey walking by or saying hello or whatever (0:40:03) Kevin: But you know all that’s new thinking more or less because it’s pig cross really like it’s a double thumbs up for me (0:40:16) Al: No, I agree. I’m trying to think if there’s anything else we want to talk about this game. (0:40:16) Kevin: What the new Pokemon games pig cross sold [laughter] (0:40:28) Kevin: Uh, I mean, it was, yep, really simple, right? (0:40:29) Al: If you like Picross, you will like this game. That’s it. You should. (0:40:36) Kevin: And if, I will say, if you’ve never played pick offs, this is a fun one to get into. (0:40:42) Kevin: Yes, you should want to do it now to, uh, this is a good one to pick up. (0:40:48) Kevin: Like I said, there’s a lot of options and customizability and how you want to play. (0:40:53) Kevin: Um, and then I, I think it’s a very. (0:40:58) Kevin: Good entry point, not like that crosses anything crazy hard or anything, but it it makes you feel welcome. Let’s say (0:41:08) Al: I agree. It is definitely one of the most accessible ones, and it gives you it gives you an incentive as well. So if you do put on some of the hints and stuff like that, (0:41:12) Kevin: Yep, and the good music. (0:41:24) Al: it will indicate that that’s happened. It won’t penalize you, but it will indicate at the end that you used one of the specific things, which might give you an incentive to go, Oh, let me try doing it without those hints. (0:41:30) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yeah, yep (0:41:38) Al: I don’t like when they penalize you for doing stuff like that, (0:41:41) Al: but it’s fun to give you just a little bit of a nudge to be like, Hey, maybe try it. (0:41:44) Kevin: Yeah (0:41:46) Al: Maybe dry it, you know. (0:41:47) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and (0:41:50) Kevin: Something of really minor detail that I haven’t seen in any of the I don’t think I’ve seen any other pick cross games I played (0:41:57) Kevin: It will actually record your time Which I think is fun. If you want to go back and see if you’ve improved any I got some tricks and whatnot (0:42:06) Al: Yeah, I managed to get the first level down to three seconds. (0:42:07) Kevin: Oh (0:42:11) Kevin: Jeez jeez man (0:42:14) Kevin: I probably could but I’m so methodical about my across like I know I could just look at it and solve it But I want to do it robot once I normally do (0:42:20) Al: Yeah, well, the good thing about that one is it’s just like the top three rows are all full and then the middle column is full. That’s all you need to do. So it’s like you can immediately see because it’s like four, you see four fives. So you just go across the fives and that’s it done. (0:42:41) Kevin: yeah yep yeah yes alright well I guess that’s that huh cuz I got nothing else for it um it’s a good one pick it again that’s pick pixel like you know you like the the squares you get it you get it out pixel story of seasons (0:42:41) Al: It was fun. It was fun to see how quickly I could do that one. And it’s literally just the only thing that’s stopping me is the fact that the buttons take time to move across. That’s it. (0:42:58) Al: Yeah, that’s fine. Play the game. (0:43:10) Al: Awesome. Cool. Well, thank you, Kevin, for joining me to talk about Pixel Cross Story of Seasons. I’m sure Mika will be sad that he wasn’t here to talk about it as well. (0:43:12) Kevin: something like that go look up google is where joe fine is (0:43:27) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, we’ll get him on when we went to be the second harvest (0:43:34) Al: Game of the year 2020 (0:43:37) Kevin: Well, look if you get is both on there’s a more than a non-zero chance of that (0:43:42) Al: Where can people find you on the internet, Kevin? (0:43:48) Kevin: Find me at Cooper Press for my personal Twitter on (0:43:52) Kevin: We’re currently now posting a lot of good dank memes about Pokemon legends (0:43:58) Kevin: Find me at spreader square to gonna see my art or find me at Rainbow Road radio The Mario podcast that I do with in this case last week out you were on (0:44:10) Kevin: Where we went through some Mario questions and discussed Brie Larson and most importantly we casted the (0:44:17) Kevin: live-action Mario movie (0:44:20) Kevin: So, you know buckle in for that one. What about you out? Where do people find you? (0:44:26) Al: Well you can find me on last week’s episode of Rainbow Road Radio. (0:44:30) Al: You can also find me on Twitter and on Mastodon at thescotbot. (0:44:37) Al: You can find the podcast on Tumblr and Twitter at THSPod. (0:44:43) Al: You can find links to everything we’ve talked about in the show notes and also on our website harvestseason.club where we also have a feedback form if you want to send us feedback. (0:44:54) Al: If you do that, it’ll probably get mentioned on the podcast. (0:44:56) Al: You’ll also find a link to our Patreon, patreon.com/thspod, (0:44:57) Kevin: Hey, there you go (0:45:03) Al: where you can support the podcast. If you do that, you will get access to the Slack, (0:45:08) Al: where we love to mock me. And we have been admiring Cody’s Fox Craft Island. (0:45:17) Al: You’ll also find bonus episodes of the podcast called The Greenhouse, (0:45:22) Al: Where we talk about things that are not, CODGECORE GAMES. (0:45:27) Al: Including either already out or coming out soon, depending on if I have any time tomorrow, (0:45:33) Al: will be me and Kevin talking about the Pokemon Day Presents and some stuff that happened in that. (0:45:44) Al: I mean, one thing, right? That’s what we’re going to be talking about, one thing. (0:45:47) Kevin: All right. (0:45:48) Al: Unless you particularly want to talk about the master’s updater. (0:45:53) Kevin: This is Thank you. (0:45:55) Al: All right, cool. Wow. Thank you. (0:45:56) Al: Thank you, Kevin, again, for joining me. Thank you listeners for listening and until next time, have a good harvest. (0:46:03) Theme Tune: The harvest season is created by Al McKinley, with support from our patrons, including our pro farmers, Kevin, Stuart and Alisa. (0:46:18) Theme Tune: Our art is done by Micah the Brave, and our music is done by Nick Burgess. (0:46:22) Theme Tune: Feel free to visit our website harvestseason.club for show notes and links to things we discussed in this episode. (0:46:38) Kevin: I mean, I guess it was the Marvel and Star Wars stuff, but I don’t know if Disney for Looper I don’t think Mickey Minuss has been in for it not yet (0:46:55) Al: scrolling down a list now. Marshmallow, some DC characters. This is a very long list. Alien, (0:46:58) Kevin: No goofy, immigrative. (0:47:05) Kevin: I’ll mope. (0:47:11) Kevin: Too long, some would say. (0:47:15) Kevin: Oh my gosh, he was in that. (0:47:22) Kevin: Solid snakes in there. (0:47:24) Al: It’s just such a long list, I feel like it’d be quicker to google it.

This podcast episode features a conversation with Kevin Crispin, a mental health advocate and podcast host. Kevin believes that stories are a powerful tool for healing. He shares his own experiences with anxiety and panic attacks, showcasing his humorous and sarcastic approach to mental health. Through their discussion, Kevin and host Lisa Boehm emphasize the importance of humor in dealing with mental health challenges and finding joy in the midst of difficult times. ............................................................. Find Kevin here: www.sadtimespodcast.com @sadtimespodcast (instagram) Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/373292146649249) ............................................................. Rising Strong links: Get new episode notifications: bit.ly/risingstrongupdates Follow us on Instagram: www.instagram.com/risingstrongpodcast Facebook page - send your reviews and comments via the 'comment' button here: www.facebook.com/risingstrongpodcast Email Lisa your ideas for solo episodes: https://www.lisakboehm.com/contact-lisa WIN SWAG: · Email a screenshot of your 5-star review for a chance to win some Rising Strong swag! Lisa@LisaKBoehm.com Remember to follow and subscribe so you never miss an episode ............................................................ TRANSCRIPTS: Host/Lisa: If you think humor and mental health don't go well together, you're wrong, because today's guest is going to make you giggle and smile. Kevin Crispin is a mental health advocate and podcast host who believes that stories are the great healing currency of humankind. Kevin and I connected in the podcast space online, and a few weeks ago I was on his podcast, sad times. It turns out that Kevin and I have a lot in common, including a long history with anxiety and panic attacks. Now, don't let that scare you. I think you'll really enjoy Kevin's humorous and sarcastic approach to mental health. Welcome to the show, Kevin. Kevin: Hey, thanks for having me. And I do want to say at this recording, we did record a couple of weeks ago. We have not released it yet, but don't worry. Now, as I watch you and learn how to do social media, I will tag you once we do release yours in the upcoming weeks. Host/Lisa: Perfect. Look forward to sharing that to the internets. Yes, to the Googles and the internets. Kevin: And the chat gbts, who will then explain to us what we just. Host/Lisa: Yeah, yeah. So let's jump right into this. Kevin, you have, as I said, a long history with anxiety. Let's go back in time and tell us when that started. Kevin: Yeah. When we conversed a little bit beforehand, I did make an attempt at a pithy remark to say it started when I was born, but really, I would say it was about when I was four was when I really started to notice it. I was someone who would get very anxious and wanted to make sure everybody around me felt okay and was okay. The first time I had a knowing panic attack, or at least where I felt like this doesn't feel right. I was about five years old. I was staying in my grandparents, and I was sitting in the living room at their house, and it was almost as if the walls were closing in on me because I just kept having the same thought over and over again. I'm going to run away. I'm going to run away. I'm going to run away now. I didn't want to run away, but I was so afraid I was going to run away. And I became consumed with that fear. So I'm consumed with this fear, which is antithetical to what I want to be doing at that moment, which was sitting in that chair thinking about the cubs or something. And I was consumed by the fear. But also a part of me was thinking to myself, but I don't want to do this. Why am I so worried about it? And this was long before I had had any sort of mental health diagnosis. This is long, a couple of years before I started therapy, and I had no idea about what that disconnect meant or what my perception of reality when I am anxious meant. Like, I couldn't have dove down into any of those things, but at the time I was just very afraid and very confused. Host/Lisa: Wow, that must have been frightening, especially as a little kid. Kevin: Yeah, it's pretty hardcore. And I think this is true and maybe this will be true of some of your listeners. I had all these thoughts, I got through it, but I didn't know how to talk to anybody about it because I didn't know how to explain to them. I thought if I went up to my grandma and said, I'm afraid I'm going to run away, she would say something very loving like, well, you're not going to run away. We won't let you. You're going to be just safe here. But when I try to explain, I don't want to run away, that's when you get the perplexed look like, well, why are you afraid of it? And so I just kind of kept it to myself. And that's something that I've done a lot of my life, is I've kept my worries to myself because I didn't always know how to explain them to people, and often too, at no fault of anybody else's. If you start to have a long explanation about the struggles that you're having, that can cause the anxiety for them, like, we'll wait. I don't understand what we're talking about and all this stuff. So I think I learned early on self learning behavior. Nobody taught me this to keep it to myself and just get through it and make sure everybody else is okay. Host/Lisa: I know myself with anxiety in particular. I felt really stupid saying things, just. Kevin: Saying them out loud. Host/Lisa: Saying them out loud. As soon as I started saying them out loud, it just sounded ridiculous that I would be anxious about something and then I was self conscious and then I wouldn't want to embarrass myself. And like you say, it's just for a variety of reasons. It's sometimes easier to keep it on the inside. Not so much healthy, but easier. Kevin: Or what we think is easier. Right? Host/Lisa: You're right. Kevin: It goes to something else that I've learned over the many years that often what's going on? I'm a big believer in storytelling. I believe, as I have said a couple of times, stories are the great healing power of humankind. The more we hear, the more we heal. But there's an adverse to that. And there are stories we tell ourselves in our head that are, in your case, that you just said, that's stupid. Or I'm self conscious about that. That's a story where, let's just say it's you and one other person and you don't want to tell them. It's almost as if you're taking their agency away, too, without giving them the chance to say, well, no, Lisa, it's not stupid. Or Kevin. No, it's not weird that you are afraid. You want to run away, but you're not wanting to run away. Host/Lisa: Yeah, that's really interesting, too. And I know we had talked, know the quote unquote voices in our love. You call yours Frank. Tell us, what about Frank. Kevin: Frank's a ************. I do want to say where Frank's name came from. I'm a big Tom Waits fan, and he has a record from 1983 called Frank's Wild Years. And there's a song on there, I believe. No, I'm sorry. 1983 was swordfish Trump bones with a song called Frank's Wild Years. He then had a record called Frank's Wild Years in 1987. Anyway, the song Frank's wild Years is a spoken word song about this dude who's just a **** and crazy and likes to drink Mickey's big mouths and burns down a house. And so I thought, that seems like the type of voice I've got going on in my head. And it's not that I hear voices. I'm lucky that I do not struggle with that. It's that it's my inner critic. Right? Critic being the nicest word I could ever say about Frank because he's much worse than he. For example, many times I've talked to somebody and I'm talking to them, and Frank is literally saying, you ******* idiot. They don't care what you're saying. You're not saying it right. You said, um, too many times. What the **** are you not. Just shut up, Kevin. Nobody wants to hear from you. Why don't you just go over there? I mean, it's just constant, constant. Host/Lisa: Hey, I have a Karen. I have a Karen. Kevin: Karen. There you go. Host/Lisa: Yeah. And my apologies to any listeners who are named Karen, but, yeah, my voice is Karen, and she's really annoying. I wouldn't say that she's always in my head criticizing me, but she's. She's calling me a dumb *** quite often for a variety of things. And I don't know if that's normal. I'd like to know how many people have that negative self talk going on. Kevin: My best guess is this. I think that there are variations of it, just like there are variations on most things. And I think certain people, it's very quiet, right? And then certain people, it's very loud. And I think a good example of this is something I've noticed about myself the last couple of years. I'm holding up my phone here, and I misplace that thing all the time. And it doesn't help that when I'm on the phone almost all the time, I have my wireless headphones on. So I'm walking around, and often I say out loud to myself when I can't find it, I say things, and I'm not kidding, things like, Kevin, you're a failure. Kevin, you idiot. Out loud. And then I've learned to stop and say, well, it's just a phone, so maybe not. But even this morning, I'm currently in a hotel room. And even this morning, as I went to leave, I had left the bolt lock thing on. So I opened the door and it caught, and it gave me a start. And I said, before I even thought about it, I said, ******* idiot. Come on. About something like that, right? And I'm not saying, feel sorry for me. Please don't think that that type of negative self talk throughout the day about something as innocuous as a bolt lock. It adds up for people, and it really can be very difficult to deal with. Host/Lisa: And I think especially, we're talking about mental health here. To hear ourselves talking to ourselves. I mean, the person that we spend the most time with, that we should love the most, and we talk the trashiest, too. That's not good on a good day, when life is good, but when we're in the worst of it. Yeah. I can't imagine anything worse. And yet we do it all the time. All the time. Kevin: It's almost as if. Have you thought about why we do it all the time? Do you have any hypotheses about that? Host/Lisa: I do, and I don't know if it fits or not. I think growing up, I was the kid. I was never an outsider, per se, but I was never one of the cool kids. I was always on the periphery, moved around a lot. There was a variety of reasons, but I found that acceptance, a lot of times came from self depreciating humor. Kevin: Yes. I'm sorry. I'm nodding, but yes. Host/Lisa: Yeah. And I feel like that has just stuck. Even though logically, I'm a reasonably intelligent human being, logically, I know that that is damaging logically. I know that I'm not stupid. I flub up. I do silly things. I'm a human being, but I catch myself on the daily just trash talking myself. And that's why I wonder, does everybody do. Kevin: Very, I think it's got to be on a know and know. I've had therapists say to me, well, now I'll explain a situation to them and I'll be like, I'm so mad at myself about X, Y or Z. And they'll say, well, Kevin, what would happen if your good friend came to you and said that they were in this situation? I'd say, well, that makes sense. That's normal. They're going to be fine. And they said, well, what's the difference between them and you? And I say, oh, well, I can't give myself that break. I don't really know. The best answer I could come up with is I still think it's some form of control. I still think, think that I am in some way exercising control over the situation by putting myself down. And I think that's foolish. But I think that at some point these voices develop in our heads and maybe they had a small need at that time that they met, but these patterns develop in our brains and then we grow and they stay and they get larger and larger and larger and larger. And so getting out of those patterns is a whole other thing. Host/Lisa: Well, and I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I read something a month or so ago and it keeps coming up daily in my life because I think it's so true. We do more of what we do more of and we get better at what we do more of. So, for example, if you trash talk yourself on the daily, that's a habit, right? It's a habit and it's something that I'm guessing would be as hard to stop doing as smoking or going on a diet or changing your eating habits, whatever. And you'd think of, I've been doing this for a number of decades now, right? So this isn't going to be something that I just read about, think about, hear about and go, oh, I'm so done that, right. And I think, yeah, it's something that I would like to stop and I would like to see you stop and I would like to see everybody who's struggling with that because it doesn't help us. Right. And even I think about raising kids, our kids definitely will all the time follow what we do more than follow what we say, right? So if mom is constantly looking in the mirror. I'm too fat, I've got to go on a diet, blah, blah, blah. Guess what? Kids are going to probably start saying, particularly daughters. And same thing with the self depreciation, right? Kids are going to grow up hearing that, too. So, yeah, something that we've got to stop. But let's change direction a little bit here. You and I had talked about this a little bit before we jumped on, and I love your sarcasm. Honestly. Like your sarcasm and humor. What? Do you think that the place, or do you think that humor has a place with mental health and why? Kevin: Absolutely. I think that humor has a place most places in the world. And then I'm going to say the word place again. Place. Place. So humor, I had, a long time ago, I had a realization, which was the only thing, there's so many things befuddling in life and so many things befuddling in the world, that the only thing that seems to make sense in any situation is kindness every time, 100%. But I think a close second is humor. And humor absolutely has a place in mental health, because if we take ourselves, in my opinion, if we take ourselves too seriously, we're in for a difficult road, because you have to laugh at yourself. And the way that I get through all the painful things that I've been through in my life is dark humor. I have to laugh at it. And before we got on, I told you about that thing that my mom said. And basically, I said to my mom, oh, I know why I was around. So she has a very dark sense of humor. We're at the Mayo clinic, and she's here. She has cancer. And I said, mom, I'm thinking about writing a travel diary for this. And she goes, oh, you can call it before my mom died. And that right there is a home run to me. I think that's perfect, because, well, we're all going to die anyway, so humor has to be there, because humor also elicits joy. Humor makes you laugh. I think of the movie airplane a lot. That's my favorite movie of all time. And that movie makes more sense to me than most anything I've seen, because it's so absurd all of the time, and it's so funny. And if we take not only ourselves too seriously, but the whole world around us, again, it's going to be tough going. I think so. I think there is that line you have to walk with people, because some people are different steps in their mental health journey, and they're not comfortable with the humor around it. And so on sad times, we do have levity when appropriate. There are times where humor maybe is not appropriate, but most of the time, I firmly, firmly, firmly believe it is going back to the self deprecating humor that you were talking about a moment ago. The summer of 1995, I got really obsessed with David Letterman because I could stay up late. I didn't have to get up to go school so I could watch his show. And he is Mr. Self deprecation. That's, like, all his humor is. That and irony, all day, every day. And it really struck a chord with me, and I thought it was really funny because it also keeps people off guard. But it shows. I like that guy because he doesn't think he's better than anybody or any of that. Right? So humor is unbelievably important to me. Host/Lisa: Do you seek funny things out, or do you seek things out that make you chuckle or laugh? Kevin: Not as often as I should, actually. My favorite thing in art is sadness. And the reason I say that is sadness. When I see sadness being put back to me in art, it makes my life make sense. It makes me feel less alone. Now, I know a lot of people, they need only an escape, and their escape is, oh, I'm going to go watch a comedy. Makes sense. I think that I could do more of that. But then Frank comes in and says, well, you're not doing enough. Why are you watching that Instagram reel? You should be reading. You should be writing. Apparently arithmetic, too. Reading, writing, arithmetic. And I don't allow myself that break for that joy. But that's a mistake on my part, I think, and that's a pattern I've learned. So I do seek out certain things. I love comedy, but I think it has to be curated around what mood I'm in, if that makes any sense. Host/Lisa: No, I think I understand that completely. My thing is I don't allow myself to have fun until all the work is done. All the things on the list are all crossed off. The dishwasher is empty. Is that stuff ever all done? No. So I find myself always having a reason not to go and have the fun. So, a little bit different from funny, seeking out humor, but along the same lines. And not to blame anybody, but that was kind of ingrained in me growing up. To be successful, you got to work first and play when there's time. And I've kind of become an unfun person, I want to say. And I just wonder if, again, these are ingrained thoughts or if it's a control thing or why we get into those habits. Kevin: You. Host/Lisa: If you're loving the show, I want to hear your feedback. Take a screenshot showing your five star rating and that you're subscribed to us on Apple Podcast or are following us on Spotify. Then head over to the rising strong podcast Facebook page, hit the message button and send it my way. You'll be entered to win some rising strong swag. I will draw one name at the end of each month. Good luck, and thanks for listening. Kevin: Well, I think a couple of things. These couple thoughts come to mind with one, I think you're a fun person, so stop that bullshit. Two, the human condition. Everybody says human nature, human condition. I think one of the things in the human condition that we don't acknowledge often is overcorrection. So we see something and say, I'm going to do better or I'm going to do that more. And we overcorrect. And usually it's like a pendulum. We go way the hell over here, and then we're like, we beat ourselves up or whatever, and we start to realize through the mental health work, et cetera. Okay, we got to come back over here. Not everything's the end of the world, to use your example, if I don't empty the dishwasher before I have a glass of wine and watch airplane, the other thing is, I think I've lost it. So overcorrection is one of them. And I think that, oh, nuance. Nuance is a word that has a meaning, but that meaning does not seem to be appearing in a lot of the culture anymore. Nuance is. Do you know the US show Yellowstone? Host/Lisa: Yes. Kevin: So I watched the first episode of that, and that's all I've watched. And I got done with the episode. I said, you know what? That show doesn't have any. And it's nuanced. It's just beating you over the head with it, which is fine, but when having complicated discussions about mental health, about the way we treat ourselves, people forget about the nuance of it and that it's not all or nothing all of the time. Host/Lisa: Right? Kevin: Yes. I was told the same thing. You got to work hard to get ahead, et cetera. Yes, of course, but there are limits to that. And the easiest example I can do of that is I've got this bottle of water. There is a way that you can overdose on water. If you drink too much water, you drown your cells. So let me get back to work on that. I never learned to swim, so that'll help with that. Host/Lisa: There we go. Yeah. When we talked before as well. You said that you really struggle with self doubt and impostor syndrome. And I guess that kind of ties all into what we've been talking about here today as well. Like that Frank guy. Is he playing a role in that? Kevin: Oh, yeah. Frank is the president, CEO, CFO, COO of the Kevin Self Doubt Institute, and he has built quite a massive I. So I did a writing exercise a number of years back where I started to write a letter to Frank. Okay. So I'm typing it out, I'm writing it, and then I started to let Frank's responses get typed out. And I would quickly switch to italic and it would be Frank's response then back to me, non italic. By the end of the letter was like the last page was all italics, which is him just beating me down. Host/Lisa: Wow. Kevin: Yeah. And it went out with my Christmas card and I lost a lot of friends. I'm just kidding. I don't send Christmas cards. I've always wanted to send a Christmas card where it's just me looking very confused and angry and alone, and just send it to people and be like, happy holidays. Because I think that'd be ******* hilarious. But I digress. Host/Lisa: Well, honestly, yeah, I dare you. Double dog dare you. Kevin: I also was taught to save your money when I was a kid. So Frank says to me, see, Frank takes. Frank is not interested in nuance either. So Frank's like, you're not going to spend that money on that. What are you going to do? You're going to waste your money on a joke like that? Which wouldn't be a waste, as we just talked about for ten minutes, because it would make people laugh. And laughter is great. Host/Lisa: So true. Do you have this thought that you need to, quote unquote, fix your anxiety, fix your mental health, fix anything about you? Or have you kind of gotten to this place where this is me, this is Kevin, and I accept that. Here's me. Kevin: I think I'm probably more in the latter. I think I've spent a lot of my time trying to fix it or trying to understand it, and by understanding it, think that I have control over it, when really control is an illusion. So I think I mostly accept it. I think where that gets dangerous is. So I've been diagnosed with OCD. And to put too much of how you see yourself in your diagnosis or how you view yourself gets to be if you're accepting of it, but at the same time, say, I am OCD, Kevin, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Again, nuance over correction gets you into trouble. I feel less about needing to fix it because I have done a lot of work through therapy, through medication, working out, et cetera. That helps me balance that. And it's helped me understand that who I am is not just my anxiety, but an anxiety. I've heard a lot of my mentors or people who I look up to call it a superpower, right? So my OCD, it can be debilitating, but it also has led me to accomplish a lot of stuff because it does keep me focused and driven and et cetera. So I don't think that I necessarily need to fix it as much anymore. Although Frank is telling me, and I'm not kidding, Frank is telling me right now, no, you do need to fix it. Be honest, Kevin. You always feel like you are not doing enough. So the version of me that I like, the non frank version, right, is saying everything's okay, but there's still work that I need to do to allow myself to sit quietly with that feeling that everything is okay and not have to immediately jump on top of it and make changes to it. Does that make sense? Host/Lisa: I think so. First of all, I think, can you fire Frank? He might be the CEO, but maybe it's time to give him the boot. Kevin: I've tried. The board of directors won't let me, which is just a bunch of mini franks. The ************ cloned himself, too. And look, he's not good company, and he's not funny, but it becomes so intense that I want anything but to feel that. And I think that is kind of one of the dirty little secrets about people with severe anxiety is they know they're not in their right mind when they think, I'll do anything to not feel this. But it is very. So uncomfortable that we just want to do anything. And so what we do, which perpetuates it, is we try to fight that thought or that feeling which invites the thought to stay. And then you just start doing this instead of just sitting with the thought, right. And then letting the thought dissipate on its own. I call it the voice, then I call it the anxiety, and then I call it a world. So what I mean is, the voice will say something. Here's an example. In a workplace, my boss comes in and says, kevin, can you pop in my office for a second? Right. My voice says, she's mad at you. You're going to get fired. Which causes a feeling of anxiety. That anxiety is that unease we feel, which is actually a. What's the word I want? Evolutionary trait. Right. To save us. But it is bastardized and magnified. So then you get that feeling which causes you to create a world to stop that feeling in your brain, and it happens in like 4 seconds. So it goes, Kevin, can you come step in my office for a second? I'm going to be fired. Oh, God, what am I going to do? You start to feel something, and then all of a sudden, in the world, you're walking out after having packed a box of your stuff and being ashamed as you walk by everybody because you've lost your job. And all that happens almost always way faster than we even know it's happened. And then what happens? What happens is we, I think at least I, more often than not in my life, have clung on to the world I've created and forgotten about which. He just popped her head in my office. Even so, in this example that I go into the office and I'm like. And not literally shaking, but very afraid, and they're like, oh, we just wanted to let you know that next Tuesday we're going to be closed, whatever it may be. And you're like, oh. And so it's like a push, pull, push, pull, push, pull. And that goes on for so many people all day, every day, and often, unfortunately, because so many people are parents and they're worried about paying their bills, and they're worried about, obviously, their children, maybe other members of their family, friends. They don't even have the time or the luxury to sit back and say, well, now let's follow that train of thought in my mind there for a moment. I did this, this, and this. Oh, wow. That's what happened. I created this whole world when that world didn't exist, if that makes sense. Host/Lisa: Yeah. Been there. Been there. You and I talked about this, I think, on your podcast, and I don't know if anybody else finds it helpful, but I would ask myself, is this the end of the world? Like this thought I'm having this worry I'm having. Is this the end of the world? And most of the time, the answer was no. The world will not end if I get fired. The world will not end if the garage doesn't get organized. I know. Yes. Talk about OCD. Yes, I've had panic attacks over. The garage will not be organized by this weekend like I had planned. Yes, this is true. But in my family, we've also had the worst possible thing happen to us. I mean, we've lost a child in a car accident. And that has also changed my perspective on things as well, because, frankly, I don't think anything can compare to that. So I feel like I've been through the worst. So other than, God forbid, losing another member of my family, my son, for example, anything else is survivable, but a lot of it is perspective. Kevin: Perspective. I love that word. I love the value in perspective. Having perspective, it's one of the most valuable things in the world, but it's really there on time. Host/Lisa: Oh, 100%. Kevin: And I think the way that you and I are saying that in a very solemn, accepting way says a lot about both of us. Right. To know that we are closer to forgiving ourselves for that than we may have been, as you said, 20 or 30 years ago. To say, you know what? I didn't do as well today. I'm going to try again tomorrow. Host/Lisa: Even just being aware of Frank and know, just being aware of the negative chatter, being aware of the habits, being, you know, even after you say it, Lisa, you dumbass. Yeah, okay. That's not serving me well. Awareness, right. I'm going to try not to say that anymore. Or being aware of just the terrible things that we do for ourselves and to ourselves. I think first we have to be aware, and then we have to believe that change is possible and that a change would be in our best interest. So, for know, kicking Karen to the curb when she shows up or being able to just have that perspective on the spot, which is really hard. But when Karen shows know, it's like, okay, shut up, I'm done. Kevin: I sometimes say that out loud. I don't know if you do. Oh, I do. You're not welcome here, or shut up. And that's why I can't go to Kroger anymore. But I say it out loud because it's almost as if it's like I'm now putting my foot down and we're moving forward. Right. Host/Lisa: Right. Kevin: I love what you said about awareness and then belief. And belief is similar to hope. And if you believe that things can get better, then I think the third thing is the actions and the work. Because the thing is, people always say, well, knowing is half the battle. To which I would say, well, often with my mental health struggles, I'm the Alexander the great of half the battle. But the other half, I don't have a ******* clue. I don't know how to change it. So awareness is the first step, and it's very difficult to have the awareness. But there's also that second step. Well, I guess third step, because second step is believing, and then third step of doing the work to make the change. So you can do it differently going forward, but it's hard, man. Host/Lisa: Oh, absolutely. I think that's why a lot of us are in this club. Right? It's because it's not easy. It's not something you can read one book about or listen to one podcast episode or go to one counseling therapy session. It's an ongoing process, but I think that segues perfectly into my next question, and that is, what do you do to help yourself? Kevin: Exercise. So, when the pandemic hit, I had been going to gyms for a while, and I would do, like, the elliptical or things like that for the cardio part. Well, all the gyms closed, and I had a very stressful job at the time. And I said, well, I'm going to lose my ******* mind. And I hate running. But I was like, I got to run. So I'd start running, and I became a bit of a runner. And that helps a lot. That helps me clear my head. It helps me organize my thoughts, and it kind of tires me out. I think what a lot of people maybe who aren't as anxious don't realize about anxieties, is it is exhausting. I know somebody who has a puppy, and one of the ways that she keeps her puppy calm, especially if the weather is bad, is she gives them little puzzles to try to get the treats out because it engages their brain and it wears them out. It's the same thing with anxiety. You could see somebody sitting there all day worrying, and then they're like, God, I'm exhausted. And they're like, you didn't do anything, but your body becomes so exhausted from the use of your brain. And so running not only enriches your brain, it allows your brain to reorient itself, very much like. And so exercise is a big one for me, writing. If I am able to get over the frank Hump, I guess we'll call it, which sounds terrible, if I can get over the frank Hump and actually write. I always write to figure something out. And one of my favorite things about writing is you start to write, and then it could be a couple of sentences or a couple of paragraphs. You're writing about something you had no idea you were going to write about, because it just comes because it's allowing those thoughts to flow freely. So exercise writing, and then mental health advocacy and making sure that people through the sad Times podcast, through motivational speaking that I'm trying to do, making sure that allowing people to share their stories and be somebody who can be there to listen and serve people that way is another good, positive thing for me, because when I was a kid, I had all these racing thoughts, and I really thought, nobody's brain is like this. I'm insane. I don't know what to do. I felt so isolated, so alone. And then I found out no other people go through this. And there was such an unbelievable relief to learn that I was not the only one going through this. And it wasn't relief that others were suffering. It was relief that I was not alone. And that's why I think stories are the great healing currency of humankind, because they help us feel less alone. So I guess those things. And reading, ******* reading. I'd always rather be reading. Always. And this phone ***** that up a little bit. But sometimes I'll put the phone in another room and I'll just sit with a book for an hour or whatever. People say, oh, I don't have time for reading, to which I say, well, you can make time for reading. Host/Lisa: Yeah. Kevin: Point for me to say, for somebody who has maybe two jobs and children, right? That's different. But somebody, maybe in my position, who has no children, you can always make time for reading. And I believe that we as a society, the greatest thing we ever did as a society was not invent the wheel, although that has helped. It was public libraries, because public libraries allow people to congregate. They allow people to understand ideas they'd never thought of. I think at the Chicago public library where I used to go almost daily, there was a quote from Oprah Winfrey on the wall that said something to the effect of getting my library card was like getting my citizenship. And so reading, understanding new ideas, being challenged by ideas, it is very good for me, and I think it's good for us as a race of people. Host/Lisa: Well, I think on some level, it circles back to what you had said earlier about the power of stories. And, I mean, to me, a book is a story, even if it's not a fictitious boy meets girl, whatever, or the three little pigs. A book is still a story, even if it's all based on fact. That's all about World War II or all about politics or all about whatever. It's a story. And I think our stories are very powerful. And what I have learned in the advocacy space as well is that when we tell our story, it allows other people to feel safe telling theirs. How many times have you shared a story where you've said, gosh, I really struggle with anxiety or this or that, and somebody else says, oh, my God, me too. Let me tell you about that. Yeah. Kevin: That's so well said. And one of the great parts of stories. And being human. Host/Lisa: Yeah. So I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to say that not the greatest thing is not maybe libraries, but the old campfire when we were cave people, instead of clubbing each other over the head at night, we were maybe grunting out a story or using our stick to draw a story in the dirt, because that's how the information was brought forward. Kevin: Yes, but to satirize the years I've spent in corporate culture. But is that scalable, Lisa? Host/Lisa: No, it is not. Kevin: Good Lord. Anyway, no, I think that's a very fair point. And I take your point. I think it's. Yeah. Instead of clubbing yourself over the head with it, using the club to draw in the sand or somehow to write on the wall with it. Right. Host/Lisa: There you go. See? Look at how far we've come. Look at how far. Yeah. Kevin: I mean, we've got bottled water. We pay like $3 for it, right? Yeah. Host/Lisa: What gives you hope, Kevin? Kevin: Kindness. Kindness gives me hope above all else. I think I'll use your phrasing. It's not the end of the world that gives me hope. I think for me personally, the more I learn about how the universe was made, the more I learn about my infantile spec spot in. It gives me hope. It makes me realize now, it makes you realize not everything is that big of a deal now. I still have my emotions, I still have my reactions, et cetera. So I still struggle with that. That gives me hope. Kindness, humor, gives me hope. The fact that we are able to change gives me hope. And I think mortality gives me some hope. And what I mean by that is if you read Walt Whitman, who I adore, it helps you focus on now instead of them. And that is hopeful to me. Host/Lisa: That is powerful. You're right. Kevin: I think I fail at that most of the time, but it does help me get there when I need to. Host/Lisa: What about resilience? What does resilience mean to you? Kevin: Resilience is, again, I'm going to go back to kindness. It's forgiveness. It's quite literally persistence. Maybe I use that grammatically wrong. Literally. I wrote it down on that sheet. What else did I put down? Host/Lisa: Trying to be more empathetic. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: Laughing at myself and the world. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: Trying to be kind to myself. It's not easy. Kevin: It is not easy. But as I've gotten older, as I've done some work in therapy, as I've tried to make changes to my patterns, I've learned that beating myself down is the opposite of resilience, and forgiving myself is kind of quintessential resilience. But, man, is it hard. It's very difficult, yeah. Host/Lisa: But it's like riding a bike, and only in the sense that we fall down a lot when we're first learning. And we just have to keep getting on that **** thing, right? Yeah, we're all scabbed up and scarred up. You just keep getting back on it. Right. A little farther the next time before you fall off. Kevin: True. Host/Lisa: So, we haven't really talked about your podcast sad times yet. So before we wrap things up here, can you give us a little synopsis of sad times and what you do over there? Kevin: Sure. So, sad Times is a podcast that was actually born out of my one man show. I did that one man show in 2017. It was called invisible now from the Dylan lyric, you're invisible now. You got no secrets to conceal. And in the show, the idea of the show was, you know, it would be funny is if I did a show where I talked about all the weird **** I've been afraid of. And I'm talking about, like, when I was a kid, I was afraid I was going to stick my head in a tornado siren and lose my hearing, to which everybody goes, well, just don't stick your head in a tornado siren said, ah, you're missing the point. I was afraid for a good long while, I was going to die in the electric chair. I had a full on panic attack about that in Chicago. My poor dad didn't know what the **** to do. And the goal of the show was, here's my weird ****, very much like what you just said. Here's my story. And then people say, oh, my God, I feel the same way. And I partnered with a mental health organization in the city of Chicago, and I was doing the show. And after one show, I came out, there was a woman standing there with her daughter who was maybe 1819, I don't know. And she introduced herself, said, hi, my name is. And I. Shame on me. I don't remember her name. I work with Cathedral counseling, which is who I worked with, and said, this is my daughter. And I looked to my right where she was, and she had tears in her eyes. And she all. All her life, she's been trying to explain to me what's going on with her brain. And then at the end of the show, she pointed and said, that's what's happening. And that was one of the best moments of my entire life ever. Because again, it helps people feel less alone. It helps them feel less ashamed of what they're going through. And that was wonderful. So I did that show. And then a friend of mine approached me. He was trying to build a streaming channel on Twitch. He said, I want you to do your show. Said, you know, I've already done that. And then one night I got drunk and we stopped by his house. I said, all right, here's my idea. I want to have people come on the show, and I wanted them to talk about sad, difficult times in their life. And what I don't want to do is try to fix it. I don't want to diagnose it, and I don't want to judge it. I just want them to talk about it. And the goal here is to help people feel less. So it was originally a twitch streaming show, and then due to life changes having to move and stuff, we turned it into a podcast. And so each week we have a kind and generous guest come on and talk about those extremely difficult times in their life. And I know it's called sad times, but it's really about the stories and about listening, wherever you are listening to that story and hearing something and saying, oh, I thought I was the only one who felt that way. You can find us at wwW, which means worldwide web, sadtimespodcast.com or on Instagram at sadtimespodcast. At the website, you can listen all episodes. You can register to be a guest. There's some other cool stuff. We have a blog where we do guest blogs, et cetera. So that's what sad times is. Host/Lisa: Actually, I have to say, your website is very robust. Very robust. Kevin: Oh, thank you,. Host/Lisa: kevin, I have enjoyed this so much. Thank you so much for coming on today. Kevin: Thank you for having me. I truly appreciate it. And I love the work that you're doing, and you're just kicking *** and taking names. So congratulations to you and thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. So thank you. Host/Lisa: And to my listeners, stay well and be resilient, and we will catch you next time. In season two of the rising strong podcast, I'll be dropping two episodes every week. The first will be interview style, dropped on Tuesday, and the second will be a deep dive into a specific topic of mental health, which will be dropped on Fridays. So if you have a certain topic that you'd like me to discuss, please reach out. And if I use your topic or your idea, I will shout you out on social media and your name will be entered to win some sweet rising strong swag. So thanks in advance and thanks for listening!

Kev and Jonnie talk about a number of demos they have tried recently. Timings 00:00:12: Theme Tune 00:00:43: Intro 00:02:46: Feedback 00:07:29: What Have We Been Up To 00:25:41: News 00:33:12: Demo Bonanza 00:33:21: Lightyear Frontier 00:43:04: Southfield 00:50:19: Rusty’s Retirement 00:57:36: Mika And The Witch’s Mountain 01:04:11: Outro Links Rusty’s Retirement Vertical Moment Ikonei Island Info Update Kynseed Big Build Update Farming Simulator 23 Content Update #23 Outbound Steam Page Outbound Kickstarter Page Lightyear Frontier Southfield Rusty’s Retirement Mika and the Witch’s Mountain Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:00) Al: Just before we get into this week’s episode, I need to apologize. We had a few audio issues in this episode, so yeah, sorry for that. We’ll get them sorted for next time. (0:00:44) Kevin: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season my name is Kevin, and I’m joined by our beautiful co-host (0:00:55) Kevin: There you go and today we’re here to talk about the cottagecore games whoo and all that (0:01:03) Kevin: More specifically actually we have a sampling platter of (0:01:08) Kevin: cottagecore games today because we (0:01:11) Kevin: Went out and tried some demos (0:01:14) Kevin: You know we’re gonna have I think we played with two each (0:01:20) Kevin: So there’s gonna be a yeah a good just good amount of discussion on different games (0:01:26) Kevin: But before we get into all of that (0:01:30) Kevin: Transcripts are available in the show notes and on the website as per the always (0:01:35) Kevin: And of course we’re going to get to the news and all that stuff as usual (0:01:43) Kevin: Also, oh, we should note… (0:01:44) Kevin: that Al is here in America, where I am, so, you know, I’m looking forward to hearing his misadventures. (0:01:52) Kevin: I’m just assuming he’s just smothered in burgers right now, as is the tradition. (0:02:01) Jonnie: I assume he’s smothered in tipping eggs. (0:02:05) Kevin: Oh man, yeah that’d be good, he’s just not gonna go to any restaurants, he’s gonna stick (0:02:14) Jonnie: Honestly, it would so put me off of having to travel to America is like, ‘cause A, tipping is stupid, and B, the anxiety of it, I’m just like, “Nah.” (0:02:22) Jonnie: I don’t need to deal with that. (0:02:22) Kevin: See, look, the easiest way to do it, a pro tip for all, but, well, okay, sure. (0:02:26) Jonnie: It’s not Visit America. (0:02:30) Kevin: If you are, somehow, find yourself visiting America, the pro tip is just do the credit card if you can, because then you just write it in, and nobody has to see, nobody has to know, and it’s all there. (0:02:44) Kevin: And you’ll never see them again, so, you know, it’s fine. (0:02:46) Kevin: Okay. (0:02:47) Kevin: Let’s see. (0:02:48) Kevin: stuff though, um, we actually have some feedback? (0:02:53) Jonnie: - Yeah, some feedback from, or I guess a correction from, (0:02:56) Jonnie: or corrections were the wrong thing. (0:02:57) Jonnie: Something that Al and I missed last week when we covered “Turn Up the Boy Robs a Bank” (0:03:03) Jonnie: is that there are actually accessibility options. (0:03:07) Jonnie: Neither of us picked up that those were in there and it changes quite significantly, (0:03:13) Jonnie: I think some of my criticism of the game. (0:03:17) Jonnie: So I can’t remember all of the accessibility options off the top of my head, (0:03:20) Jonnie: but I talked a lot about how I really hated the way (0:03:24) Jonnie: that gaming works in the game. (0:03:25) Jonnie: And one of the accessibility options is automatic aiming, (0:03:28) Jonnie: which I think is a really good accessibility option for this game. (0:03:29) Kevin: Yeah, oh that is a good (0:03:32) Jonnie: If you’re into the “Turn Up the Boy” sort of law, I guess, (0:03:37) Jonnie: and want to experience it, (0:03:38) Jonnie: like it feels like a good option for that. (0:03:41) Jonnie: So just want to highlight that that’s something that we missed and it’s a cool thing that they have. (0:03:42) Kevin: Yeah (0:03:47) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely cuz like you mentioned the calm I I’m the claim I didn’t play turn of boy myself, but my brother played and I witnessed most of it (0:03:56) Kevin: the combat is the weaker portion, right the the highlights the humor and the (0:04:03) Kevin: You know the chaoticness going on so kind of sidestepping that that was a good call (0:04:09) Kevin: Yeah, so good good stuff turn it boy good on you first (0:04:14) Jonnie: Yeah, and the other thing that we’ve got to talk about, so Elle and I talked about this last week, Kiv, but it would be sacrilegious to not get your take on what you think about wildflowers being on the April 1st. (0:04:27) Kevin: Well, first, my reaction, and I think I put it in the slash, is 3 and a half grand! (0:04:35) Kevin: Oh my goodness, I had no idea, like, oh my gosh, I know Apple products are pricey/overpriced, but holy moly. (0:04:44) Kevin: Now, I didn’t, I have to see the, what the farming looked like. (0:04:50) Kevin: Looks like it’s an interesting way of doing it, but I think all in all that sounds good. (0:04:55) Kevin: It’s, it’s so weird though because like, Wildflowers is very narrative/character driven, right? (0:05:05) Kevin: Which isn’t generally speaking the focus in a first-person/VR type game, but like you guys said, it, (0:05:12) Jonnie: So have you seen have you seen how the implementation? (0:05:16) Kevin: here, let me look, I’m gonna look it up right now, but I mean, overall though, I think it’s (0:05:20) Kevin: good to do it. I do think VR/augmented reality is a good idea overall. I think we’ll get there eventually, and so, you know, each baby step like this in different formats or different ways is, (0:05:42) Jonnie: Yeah, because I guess how it works is it’s less first person and it’s more like having it up on a screen, you know, kind of like one of the many screens that you can place around with the (0:05:50) Kevin: Right. Okay. That’s what the farming looks like. Okay. All right. Yeah, that’s what it is. Okay, that is (0:05:51) Jonnie: Apple Vision Pro and you can… (0:06:01) Kevin: It looks pretty cool. Um, I (0:06:05) Kevin: like the (0:06:07) Kevin: Yeah, no the farming bit look yeah, obviously like putting it in a (0:06:13) Kevin: On a screen like that is the way to go (0:06:16) Kevin: And the farming having the plots because it’s very the (0:06:21) Kevin: simple and very square slash grid like right so I think this is a good one for that (0:06:28) Kevin: because it’d be so easy to control you like it there’s not a lot of (0:06:34) Kevin: difficulties in in managing the farming aspect so that’s cool um and on top of that eventually you can automate some of that stuff so you can just skip it out right um but yeah now that looks uh Looks great. It’s I’m so happy (0:06:51) Kevin: Wildflowers is getting a second third win whatever whatever win we’re at (0:06:56) Kevin: With the the small DLC update and now this vision pro stuff (0:07:01) Kevin: I’m curious how much longer they’re gonna keep up the development (0:07:05) Kevin: But I’m here (0:07:08) Kevin: You know, I’m here for the long haul. I haven’t fired it up in a while immediately But I’ll wait till they announce maybe they’re done with everything and then see what’s going on (0:07:18) Kevin: All right (0:07:20) Kevin: Okay, so that’s that some of the (0:07:23) Kevin: House cleaning with the tend to from last episode, but now let’s talk about what we’ve been up to more recently Johnny I’ll let you go first. What have you been up to? (0:07:31) Jonnie: What have I been up to? (0:07:34) Jonnie: Because there’s been a lot of demos and trying out a lot of stuff, I feel like I’ve sort of reverted back to some comfy kind of nostalgia games in the past week. (0:07:43) Jonnie: I’ve been playing Diablo 4, partly because it’s something that I can play with friends and I moved countries recently, so it’s a nice game to do that. (0:07:54) Jonnie: But maybe more funnily, the reason we started playing Diablo 4 is because Diablo 4 has been the news a lot in the last week because they’ve been doing (0:08:01) Jonnie: very expensive cosmetic items that has generated a lot of media attention and I keep seeing headlines like Diablo 4 enters microtransaction hell and it’s silly things right like your town portal can change colour and I think it’s like you know 50 bucks or whatever for that cosmetic and it’s not entirely fair framing because I believe it comes with some of their (0:08:27) Jonnie: Premium or quite a bit of their premium currency as well (0:08:31) Jonnie: So you can can purchase other things but the thing that’s really kind of striking to me is the (0:08:38) Jonnie: The narrative around this is kind of describing it like it’s a bad thing look, if there are people out there that want to pay $50 for a (0:08:48) Jonnie: Cosmetic item that has like it’s not even on your character as you’re running around playing the game It’s literally the thing that you use to get to and from (0:08:56) Jonnie: locations. It’s not that significant in the game. And if people want to spend that amount… (0:09:01) Jonnie: for that cosmetic and that enables the developer. And I’m putting aside who the developer is and all of those sorts of things because I don’t really want to get into that discussion. But if this extends the life of the game and they’re doing seasonal gameplay and… (0:09:13) Kevin: What’s there to discuss about Activision Blizzard? (0:09:17) Jonnie: Yeah, let’s just avoid that one altogether. But if people want to pay a lot for those sort of things, and it means I as a casual player jumping in feel no need to spend money on any of that and it means I can keep investing in (0:09:31) Jonnie: developing new content for these games then great like I feel as a just for the campaign portion of the game it is fully justified as a full press game I had a lot of fun playing the campaign and if this is how they want to monetize the long life of the game go for it like the game is still very fun I have a good time of the I have a good time playing with friends I just find a lot of the narrative around ongoing monetization if we accept that that is part of the reality of games now this is (0:10:01) Jonnie: probably the least predatory way to do (0:10:04) Kevin: Oh absolutely. My two questions are, one, all the news I heard about what little I did was about the cosmetic stuff, but is there any stuff that boosts gameplay or effects mechanics or anything like that? Okay. Okay. Yeah. (0:10:22) Jonnie: no no so so it’s all yeah it’s all purchasable cosmetics yeah none of it really affects gameplay (0:10:34) Kevin: Okay, well then that’s yeah, all right who cares then also can you earn premium currency by playing or do you just have? (0:10:44) Jonnie: uh I feel like you can but I also feel like you earn even and I might be wrong um but I feel like even if you do earn premium currency it’s at a rate that’s so slow that you might as well not earn it at all because you would have to like I don’t know how you would actually save up enough of it to purchase anything uh but I can’t remember if that premium currency is actually locked behind um like a paid season pass thing so I can’t remember if it’s locked behind (0:11:04) Kevin: It’s a word. (0:11:14) Jonnie: a slightly different version of a paywall or if those are some of the the free tiers (0:11:22) Kevin: Right. Okay. Well, they, uh, like you said, who cares, right? It’s cosmetic. (0:11:26) Kevin: So whatever. (0:11:27) Jonnie: Exactly (0:11:29) Jonnie: And maybe i’m just like slightly biased, you know, because you and I both play marvel snap and that’s their approach as well Right you you generally you don’t pay to unlock cards Well, you cannot do like spending money on the game does increase the rate that you unlock cards somewhat, but not (0:11:34) Kevin: Yeah. (0:11:44) Kevin: Right, but it’s not explicitly you don’t pay money for a card exactly. It’s generally speaking just a (0:11:53) Kevin: cosmetic that happens to get you resources that can help you generate new parts, but (0:11:59) Kevin: But yeah, no, no. Yeah, I understand (0:12:04) Kevin: I guess like I think about you know Marvel snap is actually a very apt comparison because there’s (0:12:10) Kevin: Explicitly the price tag a hundred dollar bundles. I think there’s one going (0:12:13) Jonnie: Mm-hmm, yep. (0:12:14) Kevin: on right now. And yeah it doesn’t bother me like sometimes it’s a really cool one that I kind of wish I had but it’s not the end of the world there’s plenty the game is still fun doesn’t affect it and there’s plenty of other cool cosmetics I can earn but yeah no I get you um good yeah all right good way of doing it I (0:12:39) Jonnie: Yeah, and and like so to kind of come back to the actual game you know, I’m having a lot of fun with Diablo as just a thing to jump on with friends and kill a bunch of stuff and (0:12:48) Jonnie: You know have a good time. And I think the thing that I really appreciate about Diablo 4 is level scaling So the they have level scaling so it doesn’t matter what level you are. You can play with your friends and it’s a really nice version (0:13:03) Jonnie: Yeah, so you can play with your friends like when we’re playing, you know, one of our friends was level 90 I think I was the lowest level, I was like. (0:13:09) Jonnie: At level 90, he was significantly more powerful than I was even though the mobs were sort of scaled for us, as you would expect. (0:13:21) Jonnie: But I think that’s kind of fine, right? (0:13:23) Jonnie: We were able to sort of play together and not have it be where I wasn’t doing anything, but he was also able to enjoy the fact that he had put a lot more time and effort into building a more powerful character. (0:13:37) Jonnie: I thought it’s it’s a really nice (0:13:42) Kevin: That’s that’s pretty impressive because that’s a very difficult balancing act to do (0:13:47) Jonnie: Yeah. (0:13:51) Jonnie: Yeah, and then the other thing I’ve been dipping my toe back into is Old School RuneScape. (0:13:56) Jonnie: I played Old School RuneScape when it was just RuneScape, and I love dipping my toe back into it every once in a while. (0:14:00) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:14:05) Jonnie: It’s such a goofy game. I love it. (0:14:06) Kevin: Oh man. (0:14:10) Kevin: It’s such a very distinct flavor. (0:14:13) Kevin: I was actually thinking about dipping back in just last week. (0:14:17) Kevin: I don’t remember why, but I might do that then. (0:14:20) Jonnie: Do it, Kiv. (0:14:22) Jonnie: Send me your username and I will add you and we can see each other online and oh my god, okay. (0:14:26) Kevin: Yeah. (0:14:27) Jonnie: I don’t know that you were an old-school RuneScape person, but please, please. (0:14:30) Kevin: Yeah, the middle, that was definitive middle school gaming. (0:14:37) Kevin: Yeah, what’d you do in the computer lab when you had the time or nobody caught you or whatever? (0:14:37) Jonnie: Exactly, yep, that was that was the A draw. (0:14:46) Jonnie: Oh, well maybe at some point we should do a greenhouse episode on Old School. (0:14:47) Kevin: Yeah, good stuff. (0:14:50) Kevin: I was thinking that I was about to say that stay tuned for Stay tuned for our RuneScape greenhouse! (0:14:56) Jonnie: Oh, yes. (0:14:58) Jonnie: Great. (0:14:59) Jonnie: Cool, alright, we’ll leave that one there then. (0:15:02) Kevin: I have a few things to talk about in the next episode of the M1C, but the M1C will be in the next episode of the M1C, but the M1C will be in the next episode of the M1C. (0:15:04) Jonnie: Kip, what have you been playing? (0:15:08) Kevin: Okay, it’s been a minute since I’ve been on, so I’ve got a few things. Actually, all the stuff kind of was in the last week. (0:15:16) Kevin: I’ve been playing a lot of games, I guess. (0:15:18) Kevin: First, shout out to Rainbow Road Radio, the Mario podcast host with mutual friend Alex. (0:15:24) Kevin: We covered Mario vs Donkey Kong, which came out just yesterday, well, from the time of M1C. (0:15:30) Kevin: I did not purchase the game myself, Alex did, but I played the demo. (0:15:36) Kevin: Have you played any of the Mario vs Donkey Kong games at all, Jonny? (0:15:40) Jonnie: I don’t even think I’ve ever heard of a Mario vs Donkey Kong game. (0:15:46) Kevin: Okay. So, it is, so right, the original Donkey Kong arcade game, right? The debut of both Mario and Donkey Kong. (0:15:56) Kevin: If they reinvented re-imag- I won’t even say that. (0:16:00) Kevin: This game was originally on the Game Boy Advance. They did a remake for the Switch, that’s what we discussed. (0:16:09) Kevin: It is a puzzle kind of platformer game. Essentially, you’re presented with a level with platforms and obstacles like spike pits, jumps you have to make, switches, things like that. (0:16:30) Kevin: It’s not a horizontal scrolling type level like standard mario’s, it’s just one screen. (0:16:38) Kevin: And you have to figure out the puzzle of how do I get to the key, what order do I have to clear these obstacles or flip these switches, and then you get the key to the door. (0:16:50) Kevin: And that’s kind of the gist of the gameplay. It’s fairly straightforward, but they add a lot of depth, they add a lot of obstacles and stuff like that. (0:16:58) Kevin: Um, the Switch Remake specifically… (0:17:00) Kevin: It’s very nice presentation (0:17:04) Kevin: The the game is the premise is centered around these little toys called mini marios (0:17:11) Kevin: So a lot of the games (0:17:13) Kevin: Enemies and things like that are toy versions of Mario enemies very cute very reminiscent of Link’s Awakening remake art style (0:17:22) Kevin: very colorful and fun I enjoyed the demo Alex enjoyed the game that he played thus far (0:17:30) Kevin: Yeah, check that out. That was that’s a fun one (0:17:34) Jonnie: Nice. I might have to check that out. I love a puzzle. (0:17:34) Kevin: aside from that (0:17:38) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s great and they added new stuff for the remake right so it’s got a substantial amount (0:17:45) Kevin: It’s not just a short GBA (0:17:49) Kevin: Venture Yeah, I definitely recommend at least people should check out the the trailers and stuff just to see how the cute little mini marios are (0:17:59) Jonnie: or people should check out rich road radio rainbow road radio (0:18:00) Kevin: And (0:18:04) Kevin: That your rainbow Road radio, that’s correct. No, don’t worry. I’ll be plugging that later (0:18:12) Kevin: Aside from that Disney speedstorm have you heard of this one Johnny? (0:18:16) Jonnie: I have not heard of this. (0:18:19) Kevin: Okay, it is a (0:18:22) Kevin: Just came out last year. I believe it is Disney’s version of Mario Kart. Um, it’s part racing game with Disney (0:18:30) Kevin: here’s okay, so (0:18:33) Kevin: it’s (0:18:35) Kevin: It I’m two ways about it because on the one hand the actual racing is fantastic It’s a strong Mario Kart type game the if you’re a big fan of Disney, you’ll get even more enjoyment out of it (0:18:49) Kevin: With the music tracks the characters pretty wide variety of characters. They have Pixar and Disney, but here’s the kicker (0:18:57) Kevin: It’s free to play which do hey, that’s cool. You don’t spend money (0:19:00) Kevin: But it is slathered with loot boxes, season pass, microtransactions, just filled to the brim with it. (0:19:13) Kevin: And it’s not prohibitive, but you do have to know how to invest your resources. (0:19:23) Kevin: Because you get plenty of resources, basically the kicker is you have to level up your characters, (0:19:28) Kevin: racers that affects their stats and that actually (0:19:31) Kevin: does affect your performance in races, including the single player. (0:19:35) Kevin: In fact, I would say primarily the single player, which is what I’ve been playing. (0:19:41) Kevin: And so getting the resources is the challenge. (0:19:44) Kevin: You have to win certain races, do certain objectives, get from boxes, yada, yada. (0:19:51) Kevin: So it is a limited amount you get, at least like daily, but if you just invest them smartly, you can get through the races. (0:19:58) Kevin: Okay, but so you know (0:20:01) Kevin: That’s kind of a bummer how grindy you can feel at times But the grind is fun because the game itself is really fun They it as you can expect from disney money. The presentation is pretty stellar like I said the (0:20:15) Kevin: All the visuals the audio is good. They got (0:20:19) Kevin: Not every voice actor but a good majority of them. They didn’t get you know, john goodman for sully, but uh (0:20:27) Kevin: They got ariel’s voice actress, which is pretty cool. Um (0:20:31) Kevin: And i’m a big disney fan. So i’m uh, i’m thoroughly enjoying the game. Um (0:20:37) Kevin: and it’s like on every console or Platform whatever and you can move your account and all that good stuff. Um (0:20:46) Kevin: so I uh I I I enjoy I kind of recommend it if you’re a big disney fan in particular (0:20:56) Jonnie: This sounds like the sort of game that in a different stage of my life I would have got very into and it’s more that I just don’t have space for another like daily check-in game in my life at the moment. (0:21:06) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, now that’s understandable um I (0:21:10) Jonnie: And how would you say the racing compares to like a Mario? (0:21:12) Kevin: I think (0:21:14) Kevin: Overall the the pacing is faster in general. There’s a big emphasis on boosting and has a boosting mechanic (0:21:24) Kevin: The number of power-ups are (0:21:29) Kevin: They’re general. I don’t know if they’re smaller the actual amount, but they’re less impactful. Let’s say right (0:21:34) Kevin: There’s no blue (0:21:36) Kevin: Shell or lightning. There’s nothing super chaotic like the most (0:21:40) Kevin: There’s a shield you can get there. You can fire like a homing disc (0:21:46) Kevin: They do put some fun twists on it because the power-ups you can actually (0:21:52) Kevin: Have variations some you can charge up (0:21:55) Kevin: You can hold the button down and charge up the power-up to do something different some you can throw backwards others. You can’t (0:22:02) Kevin: uh… and most interestingly uh… every character (0:22:06) Kevin: has a unique uh… power-up uh… that matches their character right um… so for instance uh… ariel has a really fun one when you use her special skill she uh… (0:22:19) Kevin: these little uh… (0:22:21) Kevin: the trinkets and artifacts uh… just uh… spawn on the racetrack and if you collect them you get a higher top speed which is cute uh… there’s other ones like stitch he’ll just start blasting all her crazy like with his ray gun. (0:22:36) Kevin: Sully will roar at people and it’s just cute to see the ones that they do and how they match each character. (0:22:46) Kevin: But yeah, overall it feels less chaotic than a Mario Kart because Mario Kart is just utter chaos with everything flying around. (0:22:58) Kevin: It is a bit more straightforward racing but still enjoyable. (0:23:06) Kevin: And one more I’ve got to talk about, Moonstone Island. (0:23:10) Kevin: Funnily enough, you guys talked about the update last week. (0:23:16) Kevin: I was playing before the update dropped, I didn’t even know it was coming. (0:23:20) Kevin: You can see there was an update on Steam. (0:23:22) Kevin: I have actually not hit credits, I don’t know if you can hit credits in the game, but I completed a full year and defeated the final boss. (0:23:30) Kevin: I did a whole episode on that and I think my feelings are more or less… (0:23:36) Kevin: They added the marriage and that was fine, but it’s not enough to change the entirety of the game. (0:23:44) Kevin: There’s still a lot I like about the game, but there’s also a lot that it feels lacking. (0:23:50) Kevin: But hopefully they’ll keep updating it and we’ll see it get to a better place. (0:23:54) Kevin: The one thing I will definitely give them props for is the monster design. (0:24:00) Kevin: The hands down winner, the new ones they added, is called… (0:24:06) Kevin: …the bread mouse. It is a toaster with a piece of toast in it with a little face on it and the toast will pop out. (0:24:16) Kevin: But yeah, I still kinda recommend it. I went back to it, right? (0:24:22) Kevin: There’s enough for me to actually go through the whole year. (0:24:24) Kevin: Yeah. (0:24:26) Jonnie: And that’s a big thing, I guess, you know, in this year or, you know, in modern time. (0:24:32) Jonnie: Going back to a game is a really good sign, because there’s so many games that we get to play, (0:24:40) Jonnie: and you can try something and be like, “Oh, that was fun,” but you never really feel the need to go back to it, and you’ll be scrolling through your library, and you’ll be like, “Oh, (0:24:46) Jonnie: I never went back to that.” And you kind of realize, like, while it was fun, there wasn’t that hook to pull you back. So anything that can do that, I think, is a solution. (0:24:50) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yep, there’s something almost like I keep going back because I want it to be good right like I had fun going through the bosses and everything the last fight is actually very challenging but I just I still wish there was like a story giving me a reason that I’m hiding this thing. Oh, you know, I’m just gonna spoil (0:24:56) Jonnie: It’s kind of a pretty good game. (0:25:20) Kevin: it for anyone who cares the boss’s name is missing no actually just straight up missing no like Pokemon’s missing number but but yeah so that and hey I did I can pat myself on the back and close it for now unless something update comes. Ah, but yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to a lot of stuff and speaking of a lot of stuff we got news actually I don’t think it’s that much news but we got some items here so let’s let’s get into it first up. (0:25:50) Kevin: Alpone Island, yeah, console releases are still coming, but we don’t have any date yet, (0:25:57) Kevin: and they’re doing improvements to the UI, which is always good. (0:26:02) Kevin: I feel like, oh man, UI design, it’s so critical, but it feels so underappreciated, even just from the dev side, but you know, so I do appreciate them putting some effort on that. (0:26:20) Jonnie: Yeah, so I guess the key to this one is that they kind of recognize that their launch on Steam was a little bit rocky. (0:26:25) Jonnie: They got kind of hit with a few bugs that were probably unexpected. (0:26:29) Jonnie: And so they’re just calling out that they’re still fully intending to do their console launches, (0:26:34) Jonnie: but also recognizing that it’s probably going to take a bit more work than they initially intended. (0:26:38) Jonnie: So no official date as of yet, but I really appreciate this sort of communication. (0:26:45) Jonnie: and probably unsurprising that when you have a launch on Steam. (0:26:50) Jonnie: And you get hit with some bugs that you didn’t expect like, it’s not only that it can be disappointing sort of, you know, that that happens and disappointing commercially, but it could also be like it’s just hard right when you put a lot of time, effort and love into into a game like this. (0:27:05) Jonnie: And, you know, it’s very hard to predict we all know that building games is difficult. (0:27:11) Jonnie: So, I think it’s a good sign that they’re taking the time and not putting the additional pressure on to, to get the, to get those things done. (0:27:12) Kevin: Oh yeah, absolutely. (0:27:18) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely yeah, and even just in this (0:27:24) Kevin: Cottage cord subspace there’s plenty of games, so there’s definitely no need to rush (0:27:30) Kevin: I agree, it’s good for them to be clear for one to folk it to (0:27:36) Kevin: Plan things out like this right like they’re gonna delay it and to be clear about it (0:27:41) Kevin: So I (0:27:42) Kevin: Think that’s a sign of a good developer. So, you know, I hoped for that console release eventually (0:27:49) Kevin: Kinseed has a what they call the big build update Great. (0:27:58) Jonnie: Yeah, so the the big build update is hot now and I guess the key to this one is it introduces farm customization (0:28:06) Kevin: Yeah, uh (0:28:08) Kevin: So I have not honestly I have not seen that much about (0:28:13) Kevin: But boy that art is beautiful. It is wow that’s some lovely lovely pixel art (0:28:19) Kevin: Yeah farm customization is the big one. They have actually they have a big list of stuff on Steam you can see (0:28:27) Kevin: They even adjusted some of the story pacing (0:28:31) Kevin: Let me see. Oh, that’s cool NPC a talent system for NPC That’s really cool improvements to their progress screen (0:28:41) Kevin: You can (0:28:44) Kevin: Not just customize it not just not visual customization for the farm, but actual structures that can improve (0:28:52) Kevin: like your shelters for your animals and (0:28:57) Kevin: Things to make travel and commerce easier. Um, if this is a pretty hearty update. Oh batch crafting. There’s the (0:29:04) Kevin: That’s the one everyone loves (0:29:06) Kevin: That’s a lot of that’s a lot of that’s a big update. I appreciate that. I’m gonna have to check this out This is some really pretty art. I totally forgotten about this one I don’t like and like I said, that is out now already on Steam. Is it anywhere else? (0:29:18) Kevin: I don’t remember but at there at least on Steam, okay (0:29:22) Kevin: Let’s see next up. We have oh, this is fun one a game called outbound (0:29:31) Kevin: Let’s read the blurb shall we (0:29:35) Kevin: Build your own home (0:29:36) Kevin: Come on wheels and live sustainably off-grid Craft workstations and power supplies Source energy from the sun, wind, or water Upgrade and customize your vehicle Grow crops, automate your production, and explore a colorful world That’s a lot of stuff to do from a vehicle (0:29:54) Jonnie: look this game looks incredible so so I guess the the shorter summary we’ll keep just read out is you’re driving around in a in a minivan that you live in and you can customize I’ll put a note down here that I well I was on board before this but the moment that got Al was they built an insane structure on top of the campervan which I think is amazing from what they’ve shown you know being able drive around the world, dick out. (0:30:24) Jonnie: The game is a bit of a game, but it’s a bit of a game. (0:30:32) Kevin: Yeah, it’s a very pleasant visual style too, it’s full 3D cell shaded, I think is probably the best way, or closest approximation, I would say. (0:30:47) Kevin: This is very interesting, right? Because so many farm games, they’re centered around the farm or the base, right? (0:30:56) Kevin: But this one’s mobile, so, like, how, that will make sense. (0:31:02) Kevin: This will make, I assume, traversing between different little mini bases, because they show you can build structures on the ground and stuff, so I assume you can build little buildings and things like that. (0:31:13) Kevin: I wonder how big the map will be if you have a car, like, there’s a lot of potential there. (0:31:18) Kevin: It looks like wind turbines on the top of this thing. Oh, that’s great. I hope you can go really high, I want it to look absurdly ridiculous. (0:31:30) Jonnie: And it’s I guess in terms of like this game is being announced. They have a (0:31:35) Jonnie: Kickstarter page like but no no campaign launch or launch date. So probably just want to keep our eyes on (0:31:46) Kevin: Um, all right, so that is, again, Outbound, that’s a fun looking one. (0:31:52) Kevin: Um, and actually, that’s it. (0:31:55) Kevin: I think we’ve covered most of the news. (0:31:55) Jonnie: Oh we got one more one more (0:31:58) Kevin: Well, one more by yes, but I’ll let you take this one. (0:31:59) Jonnie: We’ve got farming some farming simulator farming simulator 23. Yeah, you scroll past it (0:32:02) Kevin: Wait, what? (0:32:04) Kevin: Oh, oh, I missed it. (0:32:04) Kevin: You’re right. (0:32:05) Kevin: I skipped it. (0:32:05) Kevin: Yeah, I did. (0:32:08) Kevin: Wait, they do content updates for these guys. (0:32:10) Jonnie: Yes, they do lots of content updates for farming simulator they’ve got all the farming freaks and (0:32:14) Kevin: I thought each year was the con- (0:32:16) Kevin: content of the- laughs (0:32:17) Jonnie: No, there are there are updates within the content updates (0:32:22) Jonnie: So this one introduces a new to. (0:32:25) Jonnie: a new video. (0:32:36) Kevin: And no (0:32:40) Kevin: I do enjoy seeing the reactions from the people who are fans, right like (0:32:46) Kevin: the I remember years back when they finally brought John Deere into farming simulator just the (0:32:54) Kevin: the (0:32:56) Kevin: The height was (0:32:58) Kevin: Through roof from the farm simulator community (0:33:03) Kevin: That’s that’s pretty fun (0:33:05) Kevin: All right, yeah, the boat (0:33:07) Kevin: I’ll put an exclamation point. I wonder if he knows who that is. I don’t know that company (0:33:13) Kevin: Alright, let’s just get into the demos Johnny. I’ll let you take the first one. That’s I chair to the class what what demos you’ve been (0:33:22) Jonnie: So I guess the first one that I’ll kick off with is Lightyear Frontier. (0:33:26) Jonnie: And as I wrote that down, I’m actually questioning, is that the name of the game? (0:33:29) Jonnie: Because we’re in the classic word salad of games where you start looking at things, (0:33:38) Jonnie: and then you wonder, is that right? Or is it something else? (0:33:42) Jonnie: It is… Yeah. Right. (0:33:42) Kevin: This is not one lonely outpost or whatever that one’s called. That’s the other space future one [laughs] (0:33:52) Jonnie: So yeah, so Lightyear Frontier is the mech space farming game. (0:34:00) Jonnie: And actually, having played the demo, I feel like farming or cottagecore game (0:34:05) Jonnie: is maybe not quite the right description. To me, it feels maybe more similar to (0:34:17) Jonnie: like a survival game. So the premise is you are dropped on a planet with (0:34:22) Jonnie: your mech and you are the only thing on there. I think part of it is the intent is maybe more for like do it with friends, right? So there might be three or four of you and you explore the planet and sort of build and establish a base more so than a farm. Like farming is definitely an element of it, but I guess that’s kind of the core base of the (0:34:42) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it definitely feels more, as you said, survival as great like no man’s sky or perhaps power. (0:35:00) Kevin: But okay, tell me how is the mech though, right? Because that’s that’s the differential to the star of the show How does it feel oh? (0:35:08) Jonnie: the mech is unfortunately disappointing and there’s one very clear reason for it and I get where they’re going I just don’t think it works in execution so what happens with the mech is you know it can jump higher you can get in and out of the mech so you’re not always in the mech and there are elements where you need to be outside of it but what happens I think in order to sort of limit traversal around the world as the mech is not great. (0:35:12) Kevin: No (0:35:39) Jonnie: If you are on unstable ground, it is highly likely to fall over and then you need to get out and you need to right the mech. (0:35:40) Kevin: Oh, no. (0:35:47) Jonnie: I get why they want to limit some of the traversal. (0:35:52) Jonnie: I assume it might be that you can get a higher jump or a longer boost later in the game, but it just doesn’t feel great. (0:36:04) Jonnie: You know to me part of what I want to feel when I’m in a mix is like I am like (0:36:08) Jonnie: Human plus and in many ways it feels like you’re a human - we (0:36:12) Kevin: Right, absolutely, like, I’m looking at the trailer and one thing I’m seeing is that the actions you do from the map feel very similar to what you could do in any other sort of survival game, right, collecting resources, planting, etc, etc. (0:36:36) Kevin: And, I mean, obviously the visuals match the Mac you’re using tools and gadgets. (0:36:42) Kevin: And what not to do it. But like you say, when you’re when I’m in a mech, I’d want to be more than human plus I want to be outrageously absurdly powerful and doing nonsense right like I just want to low, if I’m going to clear a lane, I want to do it just in till a field I want to do it in just one button push, you know, something like that, something absurd and over the top. (0:37:06) Kevin: And I’m not really seeing that, which is unfortunate. (0:37:08) Jonnie: Yeah, and I didn’t really feel that in the gameplay, so that was unfortunate. (0:37:14) Kevin: Yeah, what about the the rest of it right? (0:37:18) Jonnie: So I think the rest of it… So I think it’s well known that I’m not a particularly big fan of survival games, (0:37:24) Jonnie: but I even feel that in the realm of survival games, this one suffers from not really having a clear identity of what it is. (0:37:36) Jonnie: So if I think about something like you know the classic Minecraft, Minecraft is all built around the creativity aspect of what can you build and what can you do in this world. There’s no narrative element, it’s just come up with whatever narrative you want but this is the game which is great for what they’re doing. Something like Pylia is like hey go out into the world and beat these bosses right so there’s there is more of a here’s an objective of a thing to do. Now you can talk about how good it is at doing that but it’s (0:38:08) Jonnie: very clearly there. In Lightyear Frontier there is a narrative aspect that is so you’ve got an AI (0:38:22) Jonnie: counterpart that’s like watching over you and giving you guidance I guess is is probably the way to describe it and you’re landed on a planet there’s some allusions to you know like why didn’t humanity come here and you know explore this planet and you know you’re gonna clean up some of it (0:38:38) Jonnie: but it doesn’t feel particularly like the narrative doesn’t feel particularly compelling or strong like there was a few quests that kind of were meant to introduce it to you but they kind of just feel like they appeared and I didn’t really feel like I had a compelling reason to go and do those I didn’t care about completing the quests right like it was more just like here’s a task to complete and then on the other side I didn’t get that like the building side of it (0:39:08) Jonnie: and I didn’t feel strong enough that I was like oh but like that I could see how I want to build out this planet it more felt like kind of just standard base building stuff so to me it felt stuck between all of the different aspects of what a survival game could be and just wasn’t really (0:39:28) Kevin: Yeah, I again, looking at the trailer, I can I can get that like, I think a concern just from looking at it, the house you can build is like a little wood cottage type ranch home and in a mech game, you know, I’d hope for a big hulking metal robot base. (0:39:50) Kevin: So I can see that it feels like they’re trying to go in two different directions. They’re going through all the usual trappings of these survival. (0:39:58) Kevin: Type games, but they’re trying to do this next stuff, but not enough. So that’s that’s a tad unfortunate, like, honestly, just looks like a more colorful no man’s sky again. (0:40:11) Jonnie: Yeah. I don’t know that I have a huge amount else to say on this game, and I guess my takeaway is, (0:40:19) Jonnie: you know, sometimes you play a game and you’re like, “I didn’t enjoy that, but I know the sorts of people that would enjoy it, right? I know who I would recommend the game to.” Unfortunately, (0:40:28) Jonnie: with my time with Lightyear Frontier, I kind of left it thinking, “I don’t know who this game is for.” It feels too much like we built a thing where, you know, it’s sort of like Mad Libs. (0:40:41) Jonnie: And I guess that’s probably something we should say maybe not right up front, because now that we’re a little bit into the conversation, but there’s a huge possibility that these things could change, (0:41:09) Jonnie: All right, um (0:41:11) Jonnie: And I think for me the thing that would need to change with lightyear frontier (0:41:14) Jonnie: In order for me to go back in is I would want to hear about this game having a clear direction in terms of what it is whether that’s adding a lot more narratively or you know really going into what it means to clean up the planet and to (0:41:30) Jonnie: Build a base or do whatever the thing is that you’re aiming to do on this planet (0:41:34) Jonnie: Uh, I would just like to see more of a direct (0:41:40) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it’s it’s unfortunate and they have the big hook they have the mech right like if they got in all in on that right like (0:41:50) Kevin: customize it to be just (0:41:52) Kevin: Ridiculously different builds or whatever right like I think of you know armor court six I don’t know if you’re familiar with that that was the big mech game from from software (0:42:01) Kevin: Like that’s the sort of thing. I want to see from Mecca’s (0:42:04) Jonnie: And I think that’s a really good sort of like point to raise is that, you know, and I think we talked about this a few weeks ago, the tools just kind of feel like the tools that you would have anywhere else like it doesn’t feel like they’re really taking advantage of the of the mech and some of the cool things that it could do, you know, you’ve got this big open game, give us a, you know, a super fast boost. (0:42:26) Jonnie: Like, I’ve not played Armoured Core 6, but I’ve seen the gameplay of Armoured Core 6, and you kind of take all of the aspects of that game. (0:42:31) Kevin: right like yep (0:42:35) Jonnie: And you delete them. And that’s what playing a mech in this game feels like. (0:42:39) Kevin: yep yep oh man that’s that’s disappointing but uh it is still technically early access so you know who knows maybe one day we’ll we’ll see improvements maybe they’ll hear this episode down the ground grapevine and then then then then they’ll go all day but um all right there you go Well, that’s lightyear frontier. (0:43:00) Jonnie: - Yes, that’s my first tempo. (0:43:01) Kevin: All right, I want to talk about Southfield. (0:43:02) Jonnie: Kip, what’s your… (0:43:08) Kevin: So we covered this relatively recently on the podcast last time I was on with Al. (0:43:14) Kevin: They’re hook, they’re premise. (0:43:16) Kevin: It is a physics-based farming, your cottagecore type game. (0:43:21) Kevin: It is, so if you watch the trailer, see the images. (0:43:25) Kevin: You can see just from the visual style what they’re going for. (0:43:28) Kevin: You’re playing as this very (0:43:31) Kevin: round colorful I call it gun gumdrop creature um with goofy cartoony eyes and and just like no fingers or whatever just brown ball hands and this demo is fascinating because (0:43:48) Kevin: unlike other demos it’s not a they’re up clear about it up they’re clear and upfront about it it’s not a like example of a level or whatever this is kind of a (0:44:01) Kevin: proof of concept they want to uh show what they want to go for that’s how they describe it now that said the it is a fairly robust and complete uh demo uh it is very large and the kicker is you can’t save but it yeah yeah it’s rough so like if you want to if you think you’d enjoy this you’ve got to clear a couple hours because it is a it is a very amply sized uh demo (0:44:17) Jonnie: Oh no! (0:44:31) Kevin: both in terms of like the area you can cover and the amount of things you can do it uh so going to the main hook of the the physics space portion so for instance right in your standard farming game when you want to harvest a crop you you just push the button and you collect the resource right maybe you put it down with a sickle or whatever right in this game you have to grab the fruit Whatever it is, and you actually have to pull that sucker out like it (0:45:01) Kevin: will stretch cartoon style and you have to yank it off in a very sort of satisfying way of doing it. It’s not all completely fixed space, for instance when you’re plowing the the ground it’s still a grid based sort of system as is the usual, but for instance when you’re watering it’s not just water square by square it’s like you’re you actually just can run around and just rush all and spray water everywhere as you’re doing it. (0:45:31) Jonnie: This game just looks incredible. I love this. I have like- I love the- (0:45:31) Kevin: The Legend of Zelda Series is a very bright, bouncy, colorful cartoon. It’s a dedicated combo button. You can just roll around and roll around. (0:45:38) Kevin: Everything about it, even as you’re playing the mechanics, all feel like how it looks. For instance, there is a dedicated combo button where you just kind of roll up into a ball and then you can just start rolling around like a Goron from The Legend of Zelda Series. (0:46:02) Kevin: It’s very fun, it’s very cute. There is a huge, like, 30 or something crops that you can grow in the demo. (0:46:14) Kevin: And they do get into some of the other aspects, like building and crafting and whatnot. (0:46:20) Kevin: In particular, the automation stuff where you can construct conveyor belts and things like that. You can see in some of the trailer, like, you can have these wacky… (0:46:31) Kevin: bouncing fruits on the conveyor belts as they’re moving along. So it can… the possibilities are… they’re vast. Like, I can’t even imagine the nonsense that will come out of this game. (0:46:44) Kevin: And overall, like I said, it’s a real… it sucks that you can’t say it because I want to play this more and more, but having to restart every time is a real bummer. (0:46:57) Kevin: bummer but yeah the whole demo as a whole is very sandbox (0:47:01) Kevin: like here’s the island go here’s basically all the things you can do and just go do whatever right I don’t know what the if they’re gonna try to go with a narrative thing because they have some other NPCs and characters which are fun in design and have personality so maybe they’ll lean into that I don’t know but it is still overall I think a great demo I’m excited for the game I’m glad the demo didn’t disappoint because just what looking at the. (0:47:31) Kevin: very excited by the visual style and I’m definitely keeping my eye out for this and you know, (0:47:40) Kevin: whenever how long it will take to get a big game actually done. (0:47:43) Kevin: So definitely a thumbs up. (0:47:45) Jonnie: I loved the look of some of the automation in the game where they set up the conveyor belts and like fans and was that in the demo? (0:47:53) Kevin: Yes, yes it was. I can’t remember fans, but I think it was. I didn’t fiddle around with the animation too, too much, but they definitely had a lot of different components that you could mess around with to basically achieve the sort of stuff you see in the trailer with fans pushing them and bouncing and things like that. (0:48:11) Kevin: Yeah, I’m definitely a thumbs up from me on Southfield. (0:48:16) Jonnie: game looks, it looks incredible. My feeling looking at this game is it kind of gives me the silliness that I feel like an Ooblets was going for and Ooblets massively failed to deliver on because it just tried to be absurd. This feels like absurd with a purpose, right? That’s, to me, that’s the appeal is like the ragdoll physics style element and what you’ve said about like it’s not everywhere, (0:48:27) Kevin: Yes. (0:48:42) Jonnie: right like the the hoeing being more grid-based as well. (0:48:46) Kevin: Yeah, it’s it’s still grounded. Yes, right (0:48:47) Jonnie: That to me says a lot because yeah it’s grounded there’s still intention behind it and doing that those things where it makes sense right here like Ublitz was just like we’re gonna make everything silly because that’s the thing we do we’re silly look at how silly we are and it’s like hey you kind of just cringe in lane right like whereas this looks just amazing. (0:49:06) Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I I fully agree with that because (0:49:11) Kevin: Yeah, nothing felt nothing felt bad like for better lack of way of putting oh my gosh I think I’m looking at the trailer again I forgot there’s this fruit that will just start growing if you don’t harvest it quickly enough. It’s it’s pretty fun (0:49:25) Kevin: Yeah, they have the cannons. Yeah, all this stuff is in the demo looking at it. There’s not like your dog I don’t remember that but oh, yeah, I think the vehicle was in there, too (0:49:33) Kevin: But I agree like it’s very thoughtful (0:49:36) Kevin: in its design. It’s goofy as much as it can be but still absolutely grounds it with working systems. And honestly I had the same feeling of like this is kind of what I want Ooblets to be like because it’s bright and colorful but not ridiculously like I don’t I don’t know what it is about Ooblets something about the names that always throw me off about Ooblets but but here it’s just so much fun. I mean just looking at the (0:50:07) Kevin: It’s it’s great. Yeah, so I don’t think we have a any date or anything like that for Southfield yet, but (0:50:15) Kevin: Keep your keep your eye out for it because I think it’s gonna be a great one (0:50:20) Jonnie: Alright, so Rusty’s Retirement is a game I’m very excited about, I’ve been very excited about, (0:50:28) Jonnie: and I was very excited to try the demo. I feel like the idea of an idol-ish farming game that kind of just sits at the bottom of your screen is genius and something that I had (0:50:42) Jonnie: not considered and something I didn’t know that I wanted until I saw the trailer. (0:50:46) Jonnie: And I was like, yeah, I really want to play this. (0:50:50) Jonnie: Good. (0:50:51) Jonnie: And having played the demo, it seems like it’s exactly what I wanted it to be. (0:50:57) Jonnie: So you have your farming plots that sit at the bottom of the screen. (0:51:01) Jonnie: You select a crop, you plant it. (0:51:04) Jonnie: Rusty, he goes out and he’ll plant the crops, (0:51:07) Jonnie: or he’ll order them, he’ll harvest them. (0:51:10) Jonnie: You can purchase robots that will help with the automation, (0:51:14) Jonnie: effectively just increasing the number of tasks that you can complete. (0:51:20) Jonnie: The first crops you grow, then maybe they take a minute or two. (0:51:24) Jonnie: And then as time goes on, the crops take longer and longer to grow. (0:51:27) Jonnie: And you just need to grow more of them to unlock future stuff. (0:51:32) Kevin: You’re right. Okay (0:51:33) Jonnie: The demo has some pretty obvious blockers on it. (0:51:39) Jonnie: I assume you’ll be able to purchase more land. (0:51:41) Jonnie: There are some big bits on the screen that we just grade out with the words demo across them. (0:51:46) Jonnie: I’m sure there’ll be more buildings and stuff like you could buy. (0:51:50) Jonnie: a few buildings in this one, but nothing significant. (0:51:56) Jonnie: It was just kind of everything. I was hoping it was going to be. (0:52:01) Kevin: okay so the prison like the visual is very cute I actually like the style a lot um my question is (0:52:09) Kevin: how intrusive do you find it right like because it’s running at the bottom of your screen (0:52:16) Kevin: like how frequently are you checking in or how much is it distracting you (0:52:22) Jonnie: Yes, I don’t know if it’s fair to say, Chris, this is probably the thing that I hope changes the most as the game goes from demo to full implementation. (0:52:33) Jonnie: And I should call out that they’re very explicit that the demo is a work in progress and that a lot of things will change. (0:52:42) Jonnie: So in terms of how intrusive it is, I’m playing on a laptop with, you know, like a 15 inch screen and a monitor. It’s a textual monitor that’s like. (0:52:52) Jonnie: Maybe 27 inches and it does feel quite intrusive. They do have options where you can keep it up permanently or have it minimize, which is which is handy. (0:53:02) Jonnie: It did feel quite intrusive, but they’re one of the good things that I guess has come out of the demos. (0:53:10) Jonnie: They’ve announced that vertical mode is coming and I think the vertical mode would change it quite significantly. (0:53:15) Jonnie: I think there’s quite a difference to it being on the right of a screen versus. (0:53:22) Jonnie: It being sort of on the bottom in terms of the amount of screen real estate it will take up. (0:53:27) Jonnie: So I really like that change. I think that makes a lot of sense and it’s something that I’m very excited for because I think I would I would be much more likely to have it up permanently if I was playing in vertical mode versus horizontal. (0:53:40) Kevin: Okay. (0:53:41) Kevin: Yeah. (0:53:42) Kevin: I, I guess I can see that. (0:53:44) Kevin: I guess also like just how much like in terms of attention, does it, (0:53:50) Kevin: does it track from you, right? (0:53:52) Kevin: Like, is this something you would run while doing something? (0:53:56) Kevin: I don’t know, a work type task or, or is this something just while you’re watching videos or like, how, yeah, how much of your attention? (0:54:06) Jonnie: Yeah, so I think this is the other thing that I kind of hope changes in the full implementation is that it slows down a bit. (0:54:13) Jonnie: So I felt like it was requiring too much attention for what it was. (0:54:20) Jonnie: But again, that’s sort of a pass I’m willing to give it because it’s a demo. (0:54:23) Jonnie: And I think it felt like, you know, to me, it felt like that was intended because you kind of progress to purchasing some of the buildings and getting a lot of the resources. (0:54:34) Jonnie: what felt like very quick for a game of (0:54:36) Jonnie: this sort and I wouldn’t be surprised if in the in the full implementation everything else was slowed down so I feel like I did everything within the demo you know which which goes from starting with not a lot to generating you know thousands of gold within t

Join us today on “Coping” where Kathy and Kevin discuss the value of exploring personal and family origin stories. Learn how understanding where we come from fosters connection, perspective and empowerment to overcome current challenges and practical ways you can discover your origin story to help you adjust the path you may be on now as an adult. Kevin Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". We're excited to continue our conversation from our last episode. Kathy Yes, welcome everyone. Last podcast, if you remember, we began to discuss this interesting topic of story and the story myths that hold us back. And in this episode, we want to continue discussing the idea of how our past stories shape our current stories. Kevin That's exactly right. Our past reveals where we came from. In movies and comics, this idea is what's called an origin story. And some of the best movies are the movies that delve into those origin stories. What makes the character today who they were and that's where they came from. And so what's so fascinating is watching these backstories can actually provide us with insight into how the hero of the story or the narrator of the story acquires their superpowers, how they face loss and overcame that. And when they were dealt hardship, how they came out on the other side. And what caused them to become who they are today, flaws and all. Kathy Yeah, that's all so fascinating. I personally love all things history, past origin. So let's get started. Kathy Well, like I mentioned before, I have a fascination and love for things of the past and history. I loved history when I was a student in high school and college, almost considered majoring in it. I'm obsessed, sad to say, with ancestry.com and going through, clicking on those of you who know ancestry .com, you click on these leaves that are of the tree. You just keep clicking and clicking and I don't really allow myself to go on anymore because I'll just spend hours delving into the history. And a few years ago, we took a trip to New York City. Kevin Yeah, and I know that you love my family history because they came through Ellis Island. So there's a lot of documentation about their travels, clicking on those leaves and then being there, standing in Ellis Island, looking at the records where my great, great grandfather on my father's side traveled from Ireland and then signed his name in the book, for the records coming over to America. And then on my mom's side, my great, great grandfather also came over from Italy. And so, just to go from a website where you're searching and, you know, creating links for my family tree and then to stand there and to see the signature written and to see the pictures of the ships that they traveled on and to create literally stand exactly where they would have stood in line. Kevin There's something really powerful about that and how it becomes so real and so vivid. And for me personally, to connect my story back generations, fills me with a lot of meaning and connects me to my past in a way that I just didn't know existed. Kathy It's really quite powerful stuff. Yeah. We remember, those of you who have been to Ellis Island, there's a ferry that takes you and to think that we were seeing the Statue of Liberty just like they would have, was a very moving experience for both of us. And yeah, it just, it's about the power of connecting to your past. Kevin That's right. And I have a, you know, interesting family, immigration story of my grandparents coming from Italy and then also from Ireland. But you also have a really fascinating immigration story. Can you speak a little bit about that? Kathy Yeah. So my family did not come through Ellis Island. My parents immigrated to Florida in 1971 and that's how we came to America. They came by way of plane to this country. My dad had a new job at a brand new university and I was 18 months. So I am actually an immigrant as well. I was not born in this country and I became a citizen when I was 18. Why do you think, exploring the past is so important? Kevin Well, you are the history buff and I am the story buff, if you will. I think there's a few different things that make looking at our past and knowing our origin story so important. And the first thing is connection. Understanding our stories did not begin with us makes us feel less alone and helps connect us to the bigger story that's unfolding. And that's exactly what happened for me. I recognize that a lot of the struggles and hardships that I face in my life are generational. And I had a renewed sense of hope that if my ancestors were able to overcome the transition from what they knew to a new world and were able to build a better life to put me in the position that I am, surely I can overcome and deal with transition and hardship much like they did, that it's somehow in my blood, that it's in my lineage, that if they did it then I can do it too. Kevin And that story made me feel far less alone and really proud of what they did for me and that what I can then do in their honor in my story as it unfolds. Kathy Absolutely. The power of connecting to the past, that connection that you mentioned, is so crucial. We're all right now feeling like we're so disconnected and this is a very tangible way to try to find some connection in our lives. Currently we are in a story class journey with Be Well and we're reading Leslie Leyland Fields, "Your Story Matters". She has a very powerful quote about the past. She says, "the past is not done. It lives on in us no matter how cleverly we disguise ourselves, no matter how fast we try to run from it. When we don't turn and look behind us, we lose our way, even our very selves." Kathy And so I think the second thing that exploring our past does for us is it gives us perspective. So as you talked about connection, I'm sure part of that was also perspective. I mean looking into the story of my family gave me a lot of perspective. It's almost like looking into an old mirror. We see ourselves in an old mirror, but we also can see those who came before us and their experiences give us a new lens from which to look at our lives. How does it give us a new lens? Kevin Say more about that new lens. Kathy So for example, if I look through the lens of my life right now through the lens of my parents, again, it's a story of overcoming. It's a story of a new life, a new hope, a new future for the next generation. It's exactly what we hope for our children that my parents hope for us. And so this perspective is now connected to the story, the greater story of my family. And when I looked behind me, immediately I could see a lot of links that could frame my current perspective now. It helps diminish the feeling of being all alone and disconnected and it can provide, this new perspective can provide a lot of strength as well I would say. Kevin Yeah, and that leads us into the third thing that we gain when we take time to look at our past, and that's empowerment. Empowerment is all about getting us re-engaged with how our story unfolded and how it's still unfolding. And so what that did for me really is helped me to recognize that although in my past things happened to me when they were out of my control when I was young, as an adult, I can take my story, all that has happened, and be an active participant in writing my story going forward. And so there's a sense of empowerment that if this is what has happened behind me and I look at my life that's still ahead of me, if I want my life to be different, I can make those changes. And that's really empowering to recognize that the story is not over. What has been written is not gone. And if it's not gone, if it's still with me, I can continue to write a new story for myself going forward and reframe what has happened and how I got to where I am today based on where I end up. Kevin And that's what the origin story is all about. No matter where you came from in the hardship that you've endured, those things can propel you into the kind of future you want to have and give it that much more meaning. Kathy Yes, absolutely. It just is unlocking a lot of things for us when we go back into the past. And we want to be mindful that we understand that delving to things of the past can be hard. It can be painful. It can bring up a lot of trauma. As we embark on this journey to write our stories in our journey class, we have encountered that this past week when we began to map our stories. So mapping is this process of basically putting down all the highlights and the events and the key memories and it was hard. It was challenging. Our group was saying that they wanted to give up at some point and said they wanted to shut those doors. They didn't want to delve, go there, basically. Kevin Right. It's hard to look back. The origin stories are often filled with darkness. And like I said before, there's a sense of disempowerment that happened to you when you were too young to recognize that it didn't have to be that way. Kathy Right. Kevin And too young to have any sort of power to affect change. Often when you are delving into your origin stories, that kind of work is best done with, and within a therapeutic relationship that you're sitting with somebody who has the training to do some meaning-making, some conversational processing with you so that you can make sense of your past and you can delve through it in a healthy and safe environment and to gain the type of perspective, connection and empowerment that we're talking about. Kathy Yeah, absolutely. It is work that, what we wanna say is this isn't work that can be done alone. In our community, we are doing it together and we were able to reconvene and decide that we're gonna continue to move forward in finding a way to our past. We're gonna unlock those doors again, but we're just gonna find a different pathway there this next week. And what we have found so far is we have found these three keys that we just talked about, connection, perspective, and empowerment. Kathy And as I mentioned, from Leslie's book, "Your Story Matters", she has this quote which I think really sums up why, again, this is so important. It's a great summary for our discussion today. She says, "writing the stories from our past enables us to live them again, but this time we live them wiser and better." Kevin So good. And so we have these three keys, these three things that we gain when we look at our story and we know that we can live our stories again wiser going forward, but how would you suggest our listeners do that in their own origin stories? Where's the starting point for that? How do you begin that work? Kathy Yeah, this is a great question. This is a practical step that you can take if you're listening today. One would be if you do have any living relatives that have some stories that they can share with you about the history of your family. If you don't have any living relatives, you can go on to ancestry .com. This is not a commercial for them, but we wish they would reach out. But if you go there and you know some dates and names, and if your family has been here a couple generations in America, that would be the other thing I would say, at least two generations here in this country, you could just log on. And in the free version, you can find out a lot of discoveries. Everything from marriage certificates to census reports, ships registries; that's what Kevin found at Ellis Island. They're all online. Kathy It's so fascinating. So those are the two things that I would say is, reach out to a relative who can share stories, or you can also go online and look through that. Kevin Yeah, I think the other way that I mentioned before is, if you start diving into your story and you recognize that there's more darkness than you may be able to face on your own, turn to a therapeutic relationship, initiate a therapeutic relationship if you don't have one, or bring some of those stories to your therapist to help have a trusted person walk you through some of those difficult stories. I would also say, too, take your relatives' stories with a grain of salt. If you come from a family like mine, where there's divorce and division within the family, there's different versions of the same story that are being told. And so it's hard to know what is the truth. And the reality is that whatever story is being told by that person, that's their truth. Kathy Their perspective. Kevin And the work I've done with my therapist is to take parts of those stories to form my own. And know that the greater truth is that all of those things are part of who made me who I am and to work through each of those things individually, but then to make sense of them for how I want my story to unfold going forward. Kathy And I would say a final way for those of you who want to dive into your stories, in addition to what we said is a couple of episodes back when we were going through grief, we talked about this process of listing. And we are using it in our current class as mapping. So basically what you do is you take some sticky notes and a poster board and you are going to map out the different time periods of your life. It's a brainstorming exercise where you're able to list memories, events, highlights. Kathy We will be able to give you a link to a resource called Life Events that might be able to jog your memory. We'll attach that to this episode notes. And I just, I'm excited for you to dive into this because we just see the value of it so much. Kevin Yeah, so just to recap, we want to encourage all of you to take some time to delve into your origin story. What makes you who you are? Where have you come from? All of those things will inform where you are going next. We hope that as you delve into those stories you'll find some connection, you'll find some perspective, and gain some empowerment in that. Kevin And so to conclude our podcast today, I'd like to offer a traditional Irish blessing for the journey that you still have ahead. “May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. May the sun shine warm upon your face. The rains fall soft upon your fields. And until we meet again, may God hold you in the palm of His hand. May God be with you and bless you. May you see your children's children. May you be poor and misfortune, rich in blessings. May you know nothing but happiness from this day forward. May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back. May the warm rays of sun fall upon your home. And may the land of a friend always be near. May green be the grass you walk on. May blue be the skies above you. May pure be the joys that surround you. May true be the hearts that love you. Amen.”

Al and Kev talk about Moonstone Island Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:05: What Have We Been Up To 00:14:27: News 00:54:26: Moonstone Island 01:47:58: Outro Links Spells and Secrest Update One Lonely Outpost New UI Sneak Peek Orange Season 0.11 Wylde Flowers Eury’s Salon Update Re:Legend News My Time at Sandrock Plushies Paleo Pines Plushie Tchia Soul Meter Update Spirittea News Stardew 1.6 News Southfield Sugardew Island Sugardew Island Kickstarter Sunkissed City Abyss: New Dawn Abyss: New Dawn Kickstarter Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:34) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:36) Kevin: I’m, well it says “blank” in the show now. (0:00:40) Kevin: That just reminds me of Pokemon Gold and Silver. (0:00:43) Kevin: I was one of those guys who named my rival question my question word question word. (0:00:47) Kevin: Hello everyone, my name is Kevin. (0:00:49) Al: And we’re here today to talk about cottagecore games. (0:00:53) Kevin: Whoo! (0:00:54) Al: So the behind the scenes on that is, was it last episode? (0:00:59) Al: Neither Johnny nor Bev knew how I traditionally introduce. (0:01:02) Kevin: Yeah, there you go, yeah, you know me, I’m going to. (0:01:03) Al: So I wrote it down. (0:01:05) Al: I wrote it down in the show notes so that people always have it now. (0:01:10) Al: And the first episode we have it in, Kevin comments on it. (0:01:14) Al: So, great. (0:01:19) Al: Well, as usual, transcripts for the podcast are available in the show notes and on the website. (0:01:26) Al: This podcast, this episode, this episode, we are going to talk about Moonstone Island, (0:01:33) Al: the creature collection farming, like there’s only one, one of the creature collecting farming games. (0:01:36) Kevin: Yeah… (0:01:42) Kevin: You don’t talk about religion? (0:01:44) Kevin: Is religion one of them? I don’t remember. (0:01:46) Al: I can’t even remember if that’s one other thing. (0:01:48) Kevin: I don’t know. I still- I don’t think religion exists. (0:01:52) Al: That game smashed together so many buzzwords. (0:01:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:01:58) Al: Before that, we’re going to cover news. It has been a busy news week, (0:02:03) Al: so we’re going to cover all of that. But first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:08) Kevin: Alright, so, uh, first of all, Tears of the Kingdom, I’m still- I’ve- (0:02:14) Kevin: I don’t remember the last time I talked about it here, but I’ve played it in the background kind of… (0:02:20) Kevin: …uh, on and off, um, I’m not a- I’m not going for completion, but I am trying to hit every shrine. (0:02:29) Kevin: Every light route, and all that stuff. (0:02:32) Kevin: Um, I’ve already finished the deaths, I finished all the main story beats except for beating Ganon, (0:02:37) Kevin: and I’m over 100, uh… (0:02:38) Kevin: Shrines at this point, so I’m nearing the finish line. I might finish by next week. (0:02:43) Al: You’re doing the sensible completionist, not the full completionist. (0:02:44) Kevin: You know… (0:02:48) Kevin: Exactly. That’s correct! (0:02:51) Kevin: And that game is a blast. You know, of course, needless to say. (0:02:58) Kevin: Small stories, spoilers for people who don’t want to listen. The Fifth Sage (0:03:03) Kevin: was a real surprise. I think that’s a giant robot, and (0:03:07) Kevin: Monero is a fun to- (0:03:08) Kevin: to- a blast to run around with, um, and I’m so glad I got her early on, her relative. (0:03:15) Al: Yeah, my fun fact about her is that I got her before any of the other sages, because I just happened across her and did it. (0:03:22) Kevin: Yeah. (0:03:24) Kevin: That’s… (0:03:26) Kevin: That’s so wild, that’s so cool. (0:03:29) Kevin: Um, my brother Calvin, he didn’t do her until like after he beat all the shrines, so… (0:03:35) Kevin: He just like, “Well, I got this cool run and I don’t have anything to do with it!” (0:03:40) Kevin: Um… (0:03:42) Kevin: But yeah, no, uh, Tears of the Kingdom, great game, needless to say. (0:03:45) Kevin: Um, I’m just, haven’t been having a blast at that. (0:03:47) Kevin: Um, I’ve picked up Smash again this week, uh, (0:03:50) Kevin: They are releasing some new spirit. (0:03:52) Kevin: It’s like the fifth anniversary, something like that. (0:03:55) Kevin: Sakurai refuses, cannot be stopped from working on that game. (0:04:01) Kevin: But a good reason to pick up again and smash a smash, always fun. (0:04:06) Kevin: Aside from that, the Rainbow Road obligatory shout out here. (0:04:13) Kevin: Rainbow Road Radio, some of the stuff I’ve been talking about on that show recently. (0:04:18) Kevin: Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga the game (0:04:22) Kevin: Boy Advance RPG. We did an episode on that and boy that game is amazing! I played it when I was younger, it was amazing back then and I’m glad that it is still fantastic now. (0:04:38) Kevin: Have you played any of the Mario and Luigi games? Al? (0:04:40) Al: I have not. That was the one you covered last week, in the last episode, right? Yeah. I enjoyed listening to that. It was good fun, but it did confirm to me that I probably don’t want to play it. So I’ve played a couple of the Paper Mario games, and I’ve played what was the Mario RPG last year, and I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t think I like turn-based battles anymore. And that’s fine. (0:04:41) Kevin: Yes. (0:04:52) Kevin: Yes. Mmhmm. Yep. Mmhmm. Sure. (0:05:10) Al: For that reason, I suspect I wouldn’t like this game, because that’s a huge part of the game, right? (0:05:16) Kevin: It is. Right, but like one of the joys in my opinion where it succeeds is it’s very dynamic even for turn based game because of the (0:05:28) Kevin: The counters and the the timing and jumping these it’s still repetitive (0:05:34) Kevin: actions (0:05:34) Al: So I understand that, but actually I think that makes it worse for me because it’s not turn-based battling then, right? (0:05:40) Al: Like it’s turn-based with a little bit of real time. (0:05:44) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:05:45) Al: So because I had that in Mario RPG as well, they did that. (0:05:46) Kevin: - Yeah? (0:05:47) Al: It’s like, oh, if you, if you, if you press the button at the right time, it increases your attack, or if you press it at the right time, you get, you take zero damage. (0:05:48) Kevin: They did that? (0:05:56) Al: And it’s like, okay, well, I need to do that then. (0:05:58) Al: And there are so many battles where you basically can’t win it unless you do, or you obviously (0:06:04) Al: have a ridiculous degree, unless you do those things. (0:06:07) Al: And to me, it just turns for, it just makes it annoying because it’s like, I can’t just do a turn-based battle. (0:06:13) Al: It’s turn-based battle, but I also have to have the right timing, which to me takes away the advantage of the turn-based battles. (0:06:14) Kevin: Yeah. (0:06:18) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:06:20) Al: So I understand why people would like that, but for me, it doesn’t, it actually makes (0:06:21) Kevin: Okay. (0:06:25) Kevin: Yeah. (0:06:25) Kevin: I- I get that, right? (0:06:27) Kevin: Because, yeah, one of the advantages of turn-based battles is definitely turn your brain off, sort of thing. (0:06:32) Kevin: Um. (0:06:33) Kevin: Yeah, no, I- I- I can see that. (0:06:35) Kevin: Um. (0:06:36) Kevin: But, uh, regardless, the game’s fantastic. (0:06:38) Kevin: It’s hilarious. (0:06:38) Kevin: It’s amazing. (0:06:39) Kevin: Uh. (0:06:40) Kevin: Go listen to that episode of Rainbow Road Radio if you guys haven’t heard it. (0:06:44) Kevin: And check out that game if you guys haven’t played it, it’s still a- or 20, whatever, however many years it’s been. (0:06:47) Al: It’s 20, 21. (0:06:49) Kevin: Um. (0:06:50) Kevin: No, I know. (0:06:51) Kevin: I don’t- I don’t know what it should be. (0:06:52) Al: No, it was definitely a fun listen to hear you two talk about it, even if I know I’m not going to play. (0:06:54) Kevin: Um. (0:06:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:06:58) Kevin: Thank you. (0:06:59) Kevin: I appreciate it. (0:06:59) Kevin: Um. (0:07:00) Kevin: And, uh, well, now talking about the episode that will be released out at the- when this episode is- of Harvest Season’s out. (0:07:08) Kevin: Um, I watched something called The King of Kong. (0:07:11) Kevin: Have you heard of this at all, Al? (0:07:12) Al: No, I thought you were just saying King Kong in a funny way. This is like an actual “I have not, what is this?” (0:07:18) Kevin: Nope. (0:07:19) Kevin: Yep. (0:07:20) Kevin: Okay. (0:07:20) Kevin: So, The King of Kong is a documentary from like, 2007, I believe it is. (0:07:26) Kevin: Um. (0:07:27) Kevin: It was- it’s- it- it’s not super high production. (0:07:32) Kevin: It’s not like a big m- Hollywood movie release. (0:07:35) Kevin: It was directed by, uh, Seth Gordon, who ended up becoming a successful big Hollywood director because of this documentary, actually. (0:07:44) Kevin: Um, but it is a smaller, uh, project, it is a documentary about, uh, a- I should describe this- a competition of sorts between- a rivalry, let’s say, between a man named Billy Mitchell and a man named Steve We- Weebie, uh, over getting the world record in Donkey Kong, the arca- original arcade game, um, right? (0:08:11) Kevin: And so the way– (0:08:14) Kevin: The way this documentary is filmed and presented, it’s a very underdog story because Billy Mitchell is a world champ and record holder in like 10 different games like Pac-Man, Mrs. Pac-Man, Donkey Kong Jr., etc., etc., right? (0:08:28) Kevin: And then Steve Weebie’s just like this teacher with just a dad and all of a sudden he comes and gets this record and there’s a lot of drama involved because Billy Mitchell is closely associated with the– (0:08:44) Kevin: It’s called Twin Galaxies, the group that essentially is the authority on the records at that time of these types of arcade games. (0:08:54) Kevin: So like, for instance, one of Weebie’s early record attempts, he sent in a tape and they didn’t accept it because they said they needed to see it in person, yada yada. (0:09:06) Kevin: And so he goes in person and creates a new record, but then Billy Mitchell sends in a different tape and that one gets accepted because– (0:09:14) Kevin: And so there’s a lot of back and forth and drama. (0:09:18) Kevin: And it’s a good watch. I recommend it to people who haven’t seen it. (0:09:22) Kevin: But it’s interesting because the story does not end there. (0:09:28) Kevin: We watched some follow-up documentary and actually there’s been some court cases in the news. That’s why we kind of brought it up now. (0:09:36) Kevin: So I won’t go too much into detail of whether you guys can listen to the episode over at Rainbow Road Radio if you want to hear it. (0:09:44) Kevin: But long story short, Billy Mitchell is an awful, awful person who wants to be number one and will stop at nothing and step on everyone and backstab and control the narrative to do so. (0:09:49) Al: Oh. (0:10:00) Kevin: That much you can easily see in the original King of Kong documentary, so that’s not a shocker. But seeing the extent of how that goes, it’s a wild story. (0:10:14) Kevin: So again, that is called King of Kong. That’s the original documentary, but there is even follow-up documentaries made by more amateurs and stuff investigating more about the story. (0:10:26) Kevin: So it is a wild tale over several decades. (0:10:30) Kevin: But yeah, that’s what I’ve been up to. What about you? What’s going on with you? (0:10:30) Al: interesting. Yeah just before that I noticed that the Seth Gordon the director he did he did the 2017 Baywatch film as well this is like yes yeah so like yeah when you say he’s done Hollywood stuff he’s at he’s done proper big Hollywood stuff as well (0:10:44) Kevin: Yeah, and he did Horrible Bosses, that comedy with, I don’t know what it’s called, but yeah. (0:10:52) Kevin: Yeah, yep, yep. And King of Kong was kind of his breakthrough. Everyone took notice. (0:10:59) Al: Well, what have I been up to? I have obviously been playing Moonstone Island quite a bit for the last couple of weeks. Yeah, the behind-the-scenes stuff is we were meant to do this episode two weeks ago and I messaged Kevin on this Friday and said, “Can we delay the episode because I’ve played like 10 minutes of the game?” I just had not… We’ll get into that with stuff but I just had not. (0:11:06) Kevin: Yeah, I played a good bit too. I didn’t play it the last week. (0:11:29) Al: Managed to push myself to properly play the game. (0:11:31) Al: So I have now played a decent chunk of the game. (0:11:34) Al: So, um, yeah, we’ll, we’ll actually talk about it. (0:11:37) Kevin: Now we can talk about it, yay! (0:11:39) Al: Um, I’ve also been, uh, trying to finish up Hollow Knight as well. (0:11:44) Al: So I managed to get back into it and I’ve defeated a big chunk of the bosses. (0:11:49) Al: And I think I’ve got two bosses left to go. (0:11:52) Al: Um, so I’m, I’m getting there, but, uh, yeah, we’re getting, we’re getting pretty difficult, getting pretty difficult. (0:11:57) Kevin: Okay, oh, I bet oh my gosh. I’ve seen some of those later bosses Jesus wheez that’s some nutty stuff That’s off to you Hollow Knight people (0:12:06) Al: Yeah, it’s interesting because the one I’m currently on is like, it’s not the actual individual boss isn’t difficult, but the difficulty of it is there are six of them. And you have to defeat like all of them before, yeah. And they’re all, and they can do up to two at a time. So like doing one of them at a time would probably be reasonably easy. I probably would have done it by now. But the problem is then they suddenly go, “Oh, and here’s There’s a second one you have to deal with at the same time. (0:12:18) Kevin: Oh! It’s a gauntlet. (0:12:36) Al: You’re like dodging one, but as you dodge one, the other one gets you. (0:12:39) Al: You’re like, no, so it’s like there’s so many times where it’s like, I would have definitely beaten it if it weren’t for the fact that I had two at a time and stuff (0:12:46) Al: like that. So, yeah, it’s it’s pretty it’s it’s interesting how you can have that. (0:12:51) Al: Right. Like it’s not it’s not a very difficult. (0:12:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh, yeah that sounds gnarly. (0:12:53) Al: They’re not difficult bosses, but putting them all together like that makes it very (0:12:58) Al: difficult. (0:13:00) Al: So, yeah, but it’s been good fun. (0:13:02) Al: I think I’ve managed to get, uh, like four of. (0:13:06) Al: Um, so I got pretty close that time, frustratingly close, but we’ll get, we’ll get there soon, we’ll get there soon. (0:13:11) Kevin: Dang oh my god (0:13:15) Al: Um, so yeah, no, that’s really, it’s really good fun. (0:13:17) Al: Um, I’m definitely at the point in that game though, where I do not want to explore anymore, I do not want to backtrack anymore. (0:13:23) Al: Like I have done all of that. (0:13:25) Al: I just want to get to the last boss and kill him and be done with it and get onto the next game when it comes out. (0:13:30) Al: Right. (0:13:30) Al: I, the becomes a point with those games where you’re like, I’m done exploring. (0:13:34) Al: Thanks. And the problem is… (0:13:36) Al: Obviously, Medtrivenia is the whole point of them is exploring and backtracking. (0:13:39) Al: So they don’t have a lot of fast travel. (0:13:42) Al: There is some, but it’s not a lot of it. (0:13:44) Al: So you still have to do a lot of traversal of the map to get from boss to boss. (0:13:48) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, I get that. And Hollow Knight’s a special case because the DLC is just stuck in there, like, you can’t tell where the DLC is at a glance, right? (0:14:00) Kevin: There’s no DLC menu option, like, you’re doing over a hundred percent. (0:14:06) Al: Yeah, I haven’t, I haven’t even paid attention to what I’m doing there. (0:14:10) Al: I suspect at this point, I’m just, I’m going for the like final main boss. (0:14:15) Al: And if I’ve done any of the DLC stuff, then fine. (0:14:19) Al: But I don’t think I’m going to like focus on any of that. (0:14:22) Kevin: Yeah, no, no, yeah, that makes sense, it’s a wide one, it’s a big game. (0:14:26) Al: Super fun. (0:14:28) Al: All right. (0:14:28) Al: Awesome. (0:14:29) Al: Well, that’s what we’ve been up to. (0:14:30) Al: Let’s talk about some news. (0:14:32) Al: So first of all, we have just a couple of small things about spells and secrets. (0:14:36) Al: So their Xbox version is out now, and they have also said that they are not happy with the Switch version and they’ve fired their porting team and they’ve got a new porting team for the Switch version. (0:14:46) Kevin: Oh snap! (0:14:48) Al: The actual wording is we ourselves are incredibly unhappy with the Nintendo Switch (0:14:52) Al: version. This situation is incredibly frustrating for us to achieve the best possible results. (0:14:57) Al: We’ve decided to bring a new porting team on board. (0:15:01) Al: We would like to reevaluate the source code and are currently waiting for feedback on the current status of the source code. (0:15:06) Al: Well, we can’t make any current problems concrete promises at this moment. (0:15:09) Al: We remain optimistic about making positive progress. (0:15:13) Kevin: Well, I mean, hey, I salute them for wanting to improve the quality of the Switch ports aren’t always the best, so you know [laughs] (0:15:20) Al: One lonely outposts have posted a… post. They have updated us on what they’re working on and they have teased a UI overhaul. So the whole UI is getting an overhaul. (0:15:40) Kevin: That’s a big one. Probably respectable. (0:15:43) Kevin: And played it obviously. (0:15:44) Kevin: UI is a very critical… (0:15:46) Al: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I’ve not played the game. So looking at the two, I’m like, I don’t have an opinion on which I prefer because I’ve not experienced them properly. But they definitely it feels like it’s of the same style. So it doesn’t feel completely different, but it looks like they’re exactly it’s all functional stuff. Yeah. So they’re making it look I suspect it’s like UX based stuff and and things like their newest update. They’ve got the patch as far there as well. (0:16:02) Kevin: Right, it’s not like visually aesthetically. It’s more functional. (0:16:16) Al: It’s all bug fixes and small changes. (0:16:19) Al: So the link to that will be in the show notes as well. (0:16:23) Al: Orange season. (0:16:25) Al: Now, this is an incredible patch note. (0:16:28) Al: So this is version 0.11, 0.11. (0:16:32) Al: And the patch note starts off with narrative, (0:16:36) Al: added a main story. (0:16:42) Al: And I am absolutely fascinated by this. (0:16:42) Kevin: Uhh… (0:16:44) Al: Like, does this mean there was no main story? (0:16:46) Al: Or is this additional main story? (0:16:50) Al: I mean, it says, “After settling in Orange Town, your new life seems to be going fine. (0:16:55) Al: However, the previous owner of your farm returns, and he wants it back on this journey to guarantee your future. (0:17:00) Al: Your new life will mingle with a cast of strange, friendly, and conflicting personalities. (0:17:05) Al: What kind of people will you and them be at the end?” (0:17:09) Al: So this sounds to me like the game up till this point was like the daily farming aspect of things, (0:17:15) Al: but without like an overall. (0:17:16) Al: Marking story, which is an interesting way to go about it. (0:17:19) Kevin: Umm… yeah. (0:17:22) Kevin: Umm… (0:17:24) Kevin: Spoilers, Moonstone Island could use an update like this! (0:17:26) Al: Yeah, it’s interesting. Neither of us have played it, so I don’t think we have, but there you go. If you’ve been playing the game and you’re like, “This game could do with story.” (0:17:28) Kevin: That’s all I wanted to say. (0:17:32) Kevin: But it is funny to read, just added a story. (0:17:48) Al: Well, have I got good news for you? (0:17:52) Al: Speaking of having good news for you, specifically Kevin, I’ve got good news for you. (0:17:53) Kevin: Oh! (0:17:56) Kevin: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH AHHHHHHH! (0:17:57) Kevin: I just saw the news! (0:17:58) Al: Wildflowers, the Yuri’s Salon, I think it’s Yuri, we just think it’s Yuri. (0:17:58) Kevin: AHHHHHH! (0:18:07) Kevin: Yep, I think so. Hold on, I’m listening right now. It’s in the trailer. (0:18:11) Kevin: Yeah, it’s Yuri. Okay. (0:18:12) Al: Yuri’s Salon update is out today, if you’re listening to this on the release date, so 31st of January. (0:18:20) Al: And it brings a whole new, romanceable character, and the salon that she… (0:18:30) Al: I haven’t seen anything about pronouns, but I’m assuming she… (0:18:30) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t think so (0:18:35) Kevin: Yeah (0:18:38) Kevin: So that’s (0:18:40) Kevin: RAVERS! (0:18:40) Al: This is how you do updates, right? You go, “Hey, by the way, there was a tease, right? (0:18:47) Al: So they showed a tease of the outline of the character and said someone new is moving to Fairhaven, and then posted that yes, they are romanceable. And then the next day they were like, “Oh yeah, so the release is coming next Wednesday. Cheers.” (0:19:05) Al: Yep, good, good, good, good release in full. (0:19:06) Kevin: Umm… (0:19:10) Kevin: Yep, good reveal. (0:19:12) Al: Reveal, that’s the word I’m looking for. (0:19:12) Kevin: Like, it’s… (0:19:14) Kevin: First of all, adding a new character, that’s a big deal in any farming game. (0:19:18) Al: Yeah, especially Wildflowers, because it’s very character-based. (0:19:20) Kevin: Umm… Right… (0:19:26) Kevin: Yep, very character driven, right? (0:19:28) Kevin: Like, the setting is pretty small, so they compensated that by doing a lot of interactions with the characters. (0:19:34) Kevin: Um, so that’s… (0:19:36) Kevin: That is interesting to see, also like interesting to see added at this point, right? (0:19:44) Kevin: Because like it might say if I’m already married to Ray, I’m not gonna end that for Yuri. (0:19:46) Al: Yeah, I love how you’re not even saying Wesley, you’re just saying Ray. (0:19:48) Kevin: Sorry Yuri, I’m sure you’re fine, but you know. (0:19:50) Kevin: But that said, it will be interesting to see… (0:19:56) Kevin: It’s the reason I played the game! I’ll be honest! (0:20:04) Kevin: But… (0:20:06) Kevin: But yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I’m hopeful there will be other stuff sneaked in. I can’t wait to play it. (0:20:13) Kevin: I’ll fire up wildflowers again. Great, good excuse to do that again. (0:20:18) Kevin: One thing… Oh gosh, so it’s a salon, right? So you can redo… (0:20:26) Kevin: Yeah, Terry. Her name is Terry. Terry’s hair. It’s about to say Valerie. I’m mixing those two up now. (0:20:28) Al: Yeah. (0:20:32) Al: Quite a large selection of hairstyles, it looks like, and hair colors. (0:20:33) Kevin: But it’s I feel almost uncomfortable (0:20:36) Kevin: I feel so almost uncomfortable because I’m so used to that hairstyle it’s so iconic for the character whatever like you know it’s the look (0:20:44) Al: Yeah. (0:20:45) Al: Yes. (0:20:45) Al: It’s not like, it’s not like a game where you have a character customizer. (0:20:49) Al: Cause the whole point is it’s Tara’s story and you’re playing as Tara. (0:20:53) Kevin: Right. (0:20:54) Al: So like, this is the, I mean, can you change clothes? (0:20:55) Kevin: Yup. (0:20:57) Kevin: You can? Yes. (0:20:58) Al: Right. (0:20:58) Al: So there is at least some level of customization there. (0:21:00) Al: So, and it’s not like it doesn’t make sense to be able to change your hair. (0:21:01) Kevin: Yeah. (0:21:01) Kevin: Yeah. (0:21:05) Al: Like people change their hair. (0:21:06) Kevin: Yeah! (0:21:06) Al: That’s a thing that happens. (0:21:07) Kevin: Yeah! (0:21:08) Al: Uh, but I understand, I understand your concern. (0:21:08) Kevin: Yeah, you know, I… (0:21:11) Kevin: Yeah, I… (0:21:12) Kevin: Yeah, no, it makes sense. (0:21:13) Kevin: I… (0:21:14) Kevin: It’s… (0:21:15) Kevin: There’s nothing inherently wrong with it. (0:21:16) Kevin: I’m just uncomfortable with the change! (0:21:20) Kevin: I tear his blood, I don’t like it! (0:21:23) Kevin: But that said, hey, wildflowers in the news again, I’m very happy, happy day. (0:21:26) Kevin: Um, and boy, that r- that’s dropping soon, I like shadow drop like that. Good stuff, wildflowers. (0:21:32) Al: Yeah, good thing we’re doing this episode before it comes out. (0:21:37) Al: Awesome detail, we don’t have any like more details, but if we get them, we’ll put them in if there’s anything else coming in and it does, I actually didn’t check does it say, (0:21:47) Kevin: Heh heh. (0:21:48) Al: I think it’s a free update. I haven’t seen anything but it being DLC. Yeah, they’re called. (0:21:51) Kevin: I would assume so. They have not done anything paid as- (0:21:54) Al: Yeah, and they’re calling it an update. They’re saying the Wildflowers fourth update Yuri salon is coming next. I think that implies that it’s free. (0:22:02) Al: Hey, look, Re-legend. This is just a really small thing to say that they have said that they’re going to do more updates. That’s it. They’ve said that, oh, they got some money to work on the game more, so they’re going to do that. That’s it. That’s literally it. (0:22:09) Kevin: They’re going to add more buzzwords into the game. (0:22:28) Al: There was a bug fix update recently as well. (0:22:31) Kevin: I guess. (0:22:32) Al: I love some of these, I love some of these bugs in games. (0:22:36) Al: “Ensure the player’s character does not pass through the map when jumping off their magnus near the chest in the goblins resort in the desert biome.” (0:22:46) Al: That is so specific. (0:22:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:22:50) Kevin: Oh my gosh, that’s funny. (0:22:53) Kevin: Okay, what a, what a re-legend. (0:23:00) Al: The interesting thing is, I looked at the comments on Steam and they’re all positive. (0:23:08) Al: It’s like unexpected but not unwelcomed. (0:23:08) Kevin: Well, look, hold on. (0:23:10) Al: Surprising but fantastic news. (0:23:12) Al: Great news! (0:23:13) Kevin: Now hold on. (0:23:14) Al: Like there’s loads of like actual- and this is the first time I’ve seen like positive comments on anything for League of Legends for like five years! (0:23:24) Kevin: Well, I mean, you know, coming out was a good first step, right, in making positive comments, finally. (0:23:24) Al: Yes, that’s true. (0:23:32) Kevin: But, like, uh, look, alright, this is anecdotal, this is just my experience, I don’t know who anyone who’s played the game, so, you know, is it all just, uh, uh, uh, you know, fake town, and, uh, just the fake comment section by, populated by the devs, I don’t know, it’s possible, I’m just putting it out there. (0:23:40) Al: Does anyone? (0:23:54) Kevin: Did the game come out? I don’t have confirmation yet. (0:23:59) Al: And they do, there is one comment on it, which is just give them guns. (0:24:05) Al: So I think I know where that person’s, I think I know where that person’s mind is (0:24:08) Kevin: I wonder where… (0:24:10) Kevin: You know, did I tell you, or do you know why they added guns in Power World? (0:24:16) Al: That was that they’d said that they’d added it because they wanted it to be big in America basically, right? (0:24:22) Kevin: Yep, yep (0:24:23) Al: Which is like one of those things where it’s like, oh no, but also yeah (0:24:30) Kevin: They’re not wrong great like that’s the reaction like oh, but they’re not wrong (0:24:36) Al: Yeah My time at Sandrock They’ve got some plushies. So if you are really if you really love them my time at Sandrock characters (0:24:39) Kevin: Boy (0:24:46) Al: They have (0:24:46) Kevin: Wait that the characters they’re not creatures or animals (0:24:49) Al: They’re they’re the characters Logan and Fang just of course you don’t you’ve not played the game (0:24:57) Al: They’ve also got some figurines (0:25:02) Kevin: Terrawiobush, where’s that? (0:25:04) Al: Not on the my time at Sandrock page (0:25:09) Al: Speaking of plushies paleopines (0:25:12) Al: teasing some plushies Not out yet, but they teased our little foot (0:25:12) Kevin: What? What? (0:25:16) Al: of a plushie, a little foot and a back covered in spikes. (0:25:25) Kevin: I’m so excited. I wonder what dinos can’t tell based based off. Oh, I’m excited The dinosaurs are very well very likely get one (0:25:34) Al: Apparently, if you go on the on their link tree, they’ve already leaked what it is. (0:25:40) Al: It’s a carrot Anki. (0:25:42) Kevin: WHAT?! (0:25:42) Al: Anki, is it an Ankiosaurus? (0:25:44) Al: Sorry, Ankiosaurus. (0:25:45) Kevin: Oh yeah, probably ink. (0:25:46) Al: Anki-lo-saurus. (0:25:48) Kevin: Yeah, okay, yeah, oh, that’s a- (0:25:48) Al: Coming soon. (0:25:50) Al: I love that. (0:25:52) Al: It’s like they’ve got the link basically with the image, not the image of the actual plush, but the image of the what it is. (0:25:52) Kevin: Let’s make ship. (0:25:58) Al: And you click through it and it’s like, oh, campaign launches in four days and 19 hours. (0:26:10) Al: Thursday. Chia the game based on New Caledonia have released a cool new update or are going to release a cool new update in March which gives you well I guess let’s go let’s go the context of this game so this game is an explorationy type game but one of the big features of the game is you can jump into nature items so animals. (0:26:40) Al: animals and plants and stuff like that you can it’s called soul jumping and you have like a certain as you play the game you like build up your soul meter and you can use that to jump into animals and stuff like that. (0:26:53) Al: They are adding in the infinite soul meter so they say this comfort setting allows you to soul jump to your heart’s content without worrying about your meter depleting be a bird forever or a coconut or anything for that matter we’re happy. (0:27:07) Al: or if you like, it feels like a great. (0:27:10) Al: I mean, they say it’s not suggested for your first playthrough of the game, but. (0:27:16) Al: Do what you want. (0:27:17) Al: They’ve not stopped it. (0:27:18) Al: Like you can do it straight away. (0:27:19) Al: And if you just want to grab the jump in a bird and fly around this map forever, (0:27:24) Al: you can do that. (0:27:24) Al: And I think it’s pretty cool. (0:27:27) Al: Yeah, yeah. (0:27:30) Al: Spirit tea, spirit tea, spirit tea have added item stacking. (0:27:36) Kevin: That feels like that should have been addressed a while ago. (0:27:42) Kevin: Don’t have that at the feet. (0:27:44) Al: really wanted to like this. And it’s good in some ways, but yeah, like there’s a lot of quality of life things that it doesn’t have that a lot of games have that makes me struggle, struggle to enjoy it as much. This was one of them, so they have removed it now, but I don’t know if I’m going to go back to it or not. They’ve also listed a bunch of stuff that they’re going to add. If you are enjoying the game. There you go. You can go. (0:28:05) Kevin: Whatever that means. (0:28:14) Al: Oh, look at the list of things they’re adding. (0:28:16) Al: Oh (0:28:16) Kevin: Speaking of enjoying games, uh, you know, Bev and, uh, Johnny enjoyed Stardew in last week’s episode. (0:28:25) Kevin: It was a great listen, good episode. (0:28:27) Kevin: And you know, I think some guy out there named Concerned Date saw that, I was like, “Oh, (0:28:33) Kevin: well if they harvest season reach 1.5, we can’t have them staying current!” (0:28:38) Kevin: So he drops the news! (0:28:40) Kevin: 1.6 is on its way, baby! (0:28:43) Al: Yeah, I mean, so like there’s not actually much news in this because we already knew it was coming. (0:28:48) Al: We already knew there was stuff in it. But he says 1.6 ended up being a little larger in scope than originally planned. Yeah, who knows what earth is happening here? He says this is the key bit here. (0:28:55) Kevin: little larger with concern to (0:29:05) Al: I’m done adding major new content to it now and it’s in a bug fixing and polishing phase until is ready for release. Thanks for your patience. (0:29:13) Al: It’ll be fun to see everyone play. He does say in the comments that it should come out, (0:29:18) Al: he says absolutely will come out in 2024. It will come to PC first. There shouldn’t be a big delay between PC and console/mobile. I think with the 1.5 update, it was a two-month delay between Steam and Switch, which is not too bad. The mobile one was the one that I think it was like three years to get for it to come to mobile. So hopefully that will be faster. (0:29:43) Al: He does say it will be fine to play this on an old save, but I’d probably recommend a new save just to experience everything in context, otherwise you’ll unlock a bunch of stuff right away when you load up your save. And I read that and went, great, that’s much quicker to cover all the new content for the episode! [LAUGHTER] (0:30:02) Kevin: Yeah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha (0:30:05) Al: So there has been a bunch of things that he listed on, where is it? A new festival. (0:30:13) Al: Which I think we’re pretty convinced now that’s the New Year festival. Two new mini festivals. (0:30:19) Al: New late game content which expands on each of the skill areas. New items and crafting recipes. There’s a totem there, so presumably another warp totem of some kind or something like that. And what looks like a quiver, as in for archery. Georgia alternatives to some of the end game quests. 100 plus new lines of dialogue. Winter outfits for the villagers. (0:30:43) Al: New type of reward for completing billboard requests. Support for eight player multiplayer on PC. And I love right at the end he puts new farm type. Just casually adding that at the end of this massive list. Oh yeah, there’s going to be a new farm as well. I wouldn’t be concerned about him. He’s fine. He’s got a lot of money. (0:31:08) Kevin: I mean… (0:31:10) Kevin: No, I know he’s fine. I’m just concerned what he’s doing to him. Geez. (0:31:15) Kevin: Um, I can’t uh… (0:31:17) Kevin: But hey, 8-player farm. We can get all- we can finally have the all the harvest season hosts on one episode. (0:31:20) Al: Oh dear, yeah, so anyway, it’s coming this year and it’s feature complete, so hopefully it’s going to end up coming, releasing like when, during the month and the summer when I’m away, isn’t it? (0:31:24) Kevin: Live commentary as he started far. (0:31:43) Al: All right, so you might think that’s all the news. (0:31:46) Al: That’s not all the news. (0:31:47) Al: four new games as well to talk about. (0:31:51) Al: Oh yes! So, first of all we have Southfield. The little blurb for this one is ‘Weird farming meets silly physics in Southfield. Combine chaotic crops with unpredictable effects, (0:32:07) Al: build your dream farmstead and experiment with playful machinery. Wobble your way around an ever-changing island solo or with up to three friends and unearth its secrets.’ Now, we quite (0:32:21) Al: too many farming games and they don’t do interesting things. (0:32:24) Kevin: That’s true. Southfield said, “What if we do the exact opposite?” (0:32:25) Al: This game here does say that. So, this is this I love. I need to play this game. (0:32:33) Kevin: Alright, I do too. Okay, I’m gonna start with the big hook, and that’s the main character. It’s a (0:32:40) Kevin: big blue (0:32:43) Kevin: gumdrop head looking blob man with big eyes, and that’s kind of it. (0:32:49) Kevin: He’s humanoid he has arms and legs (0:32:51) Kevin: and a head with eyes and a little (0:32:54) Kevin: Pikmin type leaf on top just a little one little sprout (0:32:58) Al: Pretty generic. (0:32:58) Kevin: and he’s big (0:33:00) Kevin: Yeah, but he’s big and cartoony and the way he runs around his dynamic proportions and style fitting very much with the quote-unquote Weird there’s silly physics. It’s great. He does like big bounces spins, or he does like full-on tornado (0:33:16) Kevin: He rolls around in a ball at one- (0:33:19) Al: Yep, he rides on a quad bike you got quad bikes in this game (0:33:19) Kevin: Armadillo style. (0:33:21) Kevin: He does. (0:33:23) Kevin: Yep, he’s chopping down trees. (0:33:25) Kevin: The trees are actually falling. (0:33:27) Kevin: Not just poof, here’s your logs. (0:33:29) Kevin: They’re timbering over. (0:33:31) Kevin: Um… (0:33:32) Al: There’s an electric chicken that you’re carrying, you’re chasing and you get electrocuted by. (0:33:33) Kevin: logs you there they’re timbering over (0:33:40) Al: You can throw an axe to cut down fruit. (0:33:42) Kevin: You can get frozen into ice cubes. (0:33:45) Kevin: You can throw one of your fellow blob people full on hurricane spins rocks. (0:33:51) Kevin: There’s a fruit growing to gigantic proportions. (0:33:54) Kevin: I don’t know why. (0:33:56) Al: The machinery looks fun. (0:33:58) Kevin: So this is interesting because there’s conveyor belts and things presumably for automatizing things and whatnot. (0:34:05) Kevin: But because of the weird effects, they’re just this physics that like fruits and crops are just bouncing on the conveyors. (0:34:12) Al: And it’s a bunch of the machinery that seems to be like cannons as well So it’s like leaning into I just I love everything about this. This is fantastic. I need this game (0:34:12) Kevin: so, are you… (0:34:16) Kevin: yup (0:34:20) Kevin: it’s so good right and and like even and there’s crafting there’s you can build a house and other stuff um there’s you know your plots and your farms but like every crop I don’t think i’ve (0:34:40) Kevin: It’s big, it’s cartoony, it’s colorful, it’s fun. (0:34:44) Kevin: Southfield looks amazing! (0:34:46) Kevin: Um… (0:34:47) Al: There’s also some some buildings so you can like kind of, I guess, Fortnite-esque type building, right. You’ve got your your your wall, you put up your wall and you put up your roof properly designing your house how you want. (0:35:05) Al: Yep, this one is coming soon. And as of now, I only see information about it coming to Steam on Windows. (0:35:13) Al: Yep, this one’s going on the list, I’m definitely, I’m definitely playing this one. (0:35:17) Al: Next, we have, Sugar Dew Island, now, so, before, yeah, so the name, the name is terrible, (0:35:19) Kevin: Yup. (0:35:24) Kevin: Oh boy, oh boy, just they’re coming out swinging with that name. Oh boy. (0:35:32) Al: right? (0:35:33) Al: Let’s just get out of the way. (0:35:35) Al: It’s Stardew Valley versus Coral Island, right? (0:35:38) Al: Like it’s just, like where is all they, what’s, what’s with the name? (0:35:40) Kevin: No… (0:35:41) Al: It’s bad. (0:35:43) Kevin: I- (0:35:44) Kevin: Island’s overdone, but at least it’s an actual thing, right? (0:35:48) Kevin: I’m gonna put my foot down, draw the line in the sand. (0:35:51) Kevin: I don’t think any farming game should ever have the “do” in its name. Ever. Again. (0:35:54) Al: Whatever it is, is a bad name, right? Just whatever. One of the comments on YouTube is, (0:35:57) Kevin: Just… (0:35:58) Kevin: Just don’t try. (0:36:06) Al: “One might consider there’s a copy of Stardew, shut up.” So, one interesting thing just before we actually talk about the game is, I feel like this has been shared, it’s been advertised on every single Kickstarter game update. (0:36:24) Al: I have seen in the last one exactly every single one of them they seem to be talking about this. (0:36:26) Kevin: I saw it on a link on one of the earlier news article links I put and clicked on. (0:36:33) Al: I am fascinated about by this like what is the deal behind this game? (0:36:38) Kevin: Raid Shadow Legends. (0:36:39) Al: So let’s do the usual blurb in this cozy farming game you have to run your own farm shop take care of your animals and your farm sell your goods to the cute forest folk (0:36:51) Al: upgrade the island and fulfill smart. (0:36:54) Al: No, fulfill small orders from the Harmony Tree to fill the island with life again. (0:37:00) Al: Nothing about this seems unique. (0:37:03) Al: Comparing to the previous one, this just looks like it’s a farming game. (0:37:04) Kevin: nope I yep the the one oh gosh even the four quote-unquote force folk just look like harvest sprites the one thing I will say I I have one thing I’ve wanted is to run the shop the shipping bin that’s it I don’t know if (0:37:08) Al: Hey look, it’s a harvest moon. (0:37:30) Al: Yeah, this is the thing about those is, so Ooblets had a way to do that, and there’s been a couple of other games where there’s been a little bit of it, and it always just feels to me like it’s just a really inefficient way of selling things, right? Because you have to go in and you put a few things out in the shop, and then you have to like, you either, they either implement like a haggling thing, in which case I always feel like I’m not getting as much as I could, or it just ends up being why can’t I just throw these in the shipping box, right? (0:38:00) Al: I don’t feel like any of them have ever done it well, (0:38:04) Al: and I’m not sure I trust this. (0:38:06) Kevin: I I don’t think not off not what I’m looking because like you know thinking farms like you’re growing (0:38:13) Kevin: Huge amounts of crops rolling bulk and so like I don’t know but (0:38:16) Kevin: Yeah, the shop doesn’t need that’s the add more to that because otherwise boy This much like its name takes after a lot of other games a boy am I look (0:38:28) Kevin: Studio Ghibli has amazing art stuff, but boy. I’m I tired of seeing that (0:38:34) Kevin: aesthetic in these games. (0:38:36) Al: Yeah, it’s not like it looks bad or anything, but it’s not and and the game doesn’t actually look like the trailer Right the trailer is completely like just random animated stuff (0:38:36) Kevin: Um… (0:38:38) Kevin: No! (0:38:46) Al: Well, I know it does have some of the gameplay, but like it starts off with that style (0:38:48) Kevin: Well, presumably we’re not 100% sure, but (0:38:51) Al: It’s a completely different style than the I suspect actually (0:38:54) Kevin: Yeah, true true (0:38:56) Al: It looks fine. It’s not like it looks bad (0:38:59) Kevin: Yeah, it just (0:38:59) Al: But nothing about it can especially comparing it to what we just talked about nothing about this excites (0:39:05) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s it’s it looks fine, but not bringing anything new to the table. It’s a tough market (0:39:13) Kevin: Gotta do a bit more to (0:39:14) Al: Anyway, the Kickstarter is launching soon. (0:39:19) Al: Apparently, Steam says its planned release is Q2 this year, presumably that’s Early Access, (0:39:26) Al: but it doesn’t say on Steam that it’s going to be Early Access. (0:39:29) Al: I’m assuming they aren’t doing a Kickstarter to then release the full version in a matter of months. (0:39:37) Al: You would think not, but who knows. (0:39:41) Al: I noticed is Roca play. (0:39:43) Al: Uh, they. (0:39:44) Al: Are they a publisher or are they a developer? (0:39:48) Al: I’m not actually sure. (0:39:49) Al: They look to be both, but they did spells and secrets. (0:39:54) Al: They’ve done solar punk and they did, um, Oh, what was that one? (0:40:01) Al: There was another one that was like a, an island based one where you were like a pirate and you crashed into the island. (0:40:08) Al: And no, I don’t mean, and I realized that sounds exactly like the start of Dragon Quest Builders 2. (0:40:17) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t, um… (0:40:19) Kevin: Lose Lagoon? (0:40:21) Kevin: Castaway Paradise? (0:40:22) Al: Castaway Paradise. No, that’s not the one I was meaning, but that is another one that they’ve done. (0:40:25) Kevin: Stranded Sales. (0:40:27) Al: Stranded Sales. Yes, there we go. They did Strand- (0:40:29) Kevin: Oh my gosh, they… (0:40:31) Kevin: They actually have a game called Harvest Life. (0:40:34) Kevin: Oh my goodness. (0:40:36) Al: So, yeah, they did Beasties as well, which was the one that went on Kickstarter and then they cancelled the Kickstarter. (0:40:43) Al: And I don’t know, it’s a weird company. (0:40:46) Al: They have such an interesting mix of things that become really popular and things that are just really weird. (0:40:52) Al: Like Spells and Secrets has very positive reviews. (0:40:54) Al: It’s like 80% positive reviews on. (0:40:57) Al: And then Beasties has 50% rating. (0:41:00) Al: And she’s just like, that is such a big difference. (0:41:03) Al: They also have Super Dungeon Maker, which is like a… (0:41:06) Al: Zelda-style dungeon Mario Maker type thing, which has very positive reviews, it’s 84% positive. (0:41:17) Al: And Stranded Sales was… (0:41:19) Al: It was a game. (0:41:24) Kevin: That was a game. That feels like a few of these you could- (0:41:27) Al: Yeah, so like, you never quite know what you’re getting at Rokka Play. (0:41:31) Al: So, yeah, I guess we’ll see what happens. (0:41:36) Al: The punk hasn’t even come out yet, although it looks like they’re just publishing it, they aren’t… (0:41:40) Al: So I don’t… Yeah. (0:41:42) Al: There’s a lot of stuff. I’m not particularly excited about this one. (0:41:47) Al: But it is coming to Steam on Windows, Switch, PlayStation, and maybe Xbox. (0:41:53) Al: I don’t know whether that will be as a stretch goal, but it says Xbox question mark. (0:42:00) Al: So… (0:42:02) Al: Next, we have Sunkist City. (0:42:06) Al: life sim set in an upbeat sun-kissed seaside metropolis full of funky vibes and quirky characters. Stake out your new life in the city, tending to DIY gardens, learning new skills and making lifelong friends and help bring life back to its once vibrant streets.” (0:42:26) Kevin: I don’t know. (0:42:28) Kevin: I can’t tell if this game looks good or bad. (0:42:31) Al: So, well, let’s just put it, it is almost exactly this. (0:42:36) Al: Stardew style. Imagine Stardew, it’s that. It looks like that, but it’s based in a city, (0:42:47) Al: not a small village. Every single thing I see, it just looks, you could tell me this was a Stardew and I’d go, “Oh, they changed the UI at some point.” That’s what I would do. The keg looks almost identical and the cheese press looks very similar and like these things (0:43:06) Al: and that’s not necessarily a bad thing right like stardew did very well uh but I feel like (0:43:14) Al: what is this doing that would make me play it rather than stardew and i (0:43:19) Kevin: quirky character whatever they don’t seem particular one has blue hair they (0:43:22) Al: look characters are hard to do well and I the problem is that I i don’t think you can do i don’t think I don’t think many people could do stardew and I think many people could make stardew (0:43:36) Al: but not as well and that’s what this strikes me at it doesn’t look bad but I i’m really fascinated as to why I would want to play this rather than stardew is the story really good are the characters really good that’s what i’d probably be looking for (0:43:40) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a very good way. (0:43:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:43:54) Kevin: Mmm. (0:43:54) Kevin: Yeah, because you’re right, like, I… (0:43:57) Kevin: I see absolutely nothing… (0:44:06) Kevin: Asphalt in this setting like there’s (0:44:06) Al: Yeah, yeah. And some buildings that look run down. There’s a ramen place. Okay. (0:44:11) Kevin: Yep, it’s (0:44:13) Kevin: Yep, that’s that’s kind of it. I don’t mechanically. I don’t see anything. I see fishing There’s no some type of gardening slash farming you even carry the items over your head all a stardew [laughs] (0:44:26) Al: Yeah, like the last game someone said it looks like a copy of Stardew, now this looks like a copy of Stardew, right? I don’t, again, I don’t want to like harp on it too much because like I’m sure it would be fun to play and I don’t want to put people down and I hope that, (0:44:42) Kevin: Yeah, again, it doesn’t look bad, but just… (0:44:43) Al: I hope that they’re successful but I just, (0:44:47) Kevin: It’s not standing out, right? (0:44:48) Kevin: And again, this is very… (0:44:50) Kevin: The cottagecore farming space, getting all buzzwordy here. (0:44:54) Kevin: Like it’s, it’s flooded with starting. (0:44:56) Kevin: It’s bad. (0:44:58) Kevin: So you’re going to put one out. (0:44:59) Kevin: You really need roots of Pacha. (0:45:01) Kevin: Do it in the Stone Age. (0:45:02) Kevin: Okay. (0:45:02) Kevin: And that’s something different. (0:45:04) Kevin: And it mechanically affects it, right? (0:45:07) Kevin: You have mam and stuff like it’s appropriate, but here in the city, (0:45:12) Kevin: you’re really just not seeing anything, uh, and again, this is just based off a handful of, uh, screenshots. (0:45:18) Kevin: So, you know, I could be speaking a bit too early, but I’m just not… (0:45:23) Al: So the interesting thing is, this is this developer’s second game, their first game came out in 2016, with its last update coming out in 2018. (0:45:32) Al: So I feel like they finished off that game, they saw Stardew Valley, and they’ve been working on that since then. (0:45:38) Al: Because Stardew got really popular in 2017, so just as they were finishing off. (0:45:44) Kevin: yeah that looks that’s exactly what it looks like ‘cause this is and their first game is wildly different called wasted it’s a post-apocalyptic pub crawler it’s in 3d and it’s a very wild looking game it does absolutely one thousand percent not cottagecore at all but uh… (0:45:58) Al: That looks more interesting to me. (0:46:05) Kevin: different game [laughter] (0:46:08) Al: Yeah, I don’t. Anyway, it’s there. It’s coming to Steam on all the platforms. So we’ll see, (0:46:18) Al: I guess. And the final one is Abyss New Dawn. Names, really? Names again, right? Like, is this a… Abyss New… It’s just games in general. But this is the thing. Why is it abyss new dawn. This makes it sound like it’s a second (0:46:28) Kevin: Why did it have to be so bad in this space? Why? (0:46:38) Al: abyss game, right? But also secondly, this describes i

Summary In this episode of "Coping", Kevin and Kathy discuss personal stories and describe how to transform limiting self-perceptions. They analyze common story myths that reinforce feelings of inadequacy, loneliness or invisibility, and discuss remedies like sharing authentic experiences in trusted communities. While childhood stories can instill negative mindsets, reclaiming one's narrative by embracing the fullness of their story arc can foster growth and connection. Kevin Well hello everyone, Happy New Year and welcome back to a new episode of “Coping”. Kathy Yes, Happy New Year everyone. We're so excited to begin a new series this episode and it's movie award season in our household so what does that mean Kevin? Kevin Yeah it's movie award season in everybody's household but our household is special in that I am a Screen Actors Guild member which means that every year around this time we get a bunch of screeners. I used to get them in the mail as hard copies and now everything's digital so I get an awards pin and I get to sign in and watch all the movies that are nominated and it's a fun time of year because we watch more movies than we do the whole rest of the year combined and then I get to vote so it's been a really fun award season a lot of good movies this year. Kathy Yes! Speaking of stories, in today's episode we're exploring the power of story and I'm excited to dive into this issue. Let's get started. Kathy So I know both you and I love a good story. Why do you think that is? Kevin I think that our stories offer a window into our experience, into our lives, truths about who we are where we've come from and it connects us to one another because, although we may not have come from the same background, the same experience, there's this common or shared humanity that each of us has that connects us on a deeper level and our pursuit for meaning and for connection. Kathy Yes absolutely. I think that the power of story has the ability to change the way that we perceive ourselves, others, and to bring us together in a world that right now seems so divided. Kevin That's right. You know, both you and I are in the business of story catching. As a hospital chaplain, I spend my days listening to people's stories and their experiences with new diagnosis and illness and recovery. I spend a lot of the time listening and hearing their story, affirming them. You do the same work as a life and vocation coach. A lot of your time is spent listening and capturing people's stories. Although we do give counsel and we do give guidance and reframing to people's stories, a large majority of the time spent is listening and hearing people's stories. Kathy Yeah, 100%. I love Harry Johnson's quote. He says, "we are all story. We are the stories we are told and we are the stories we tell ourselves." So I wonder, how are you the story you were told? Kevin Gosh that is complicated, right? There's parts of my story that were told about me that I have spent a lifetime and a lot of therapy trying to overcome. Stories of being dumb, being not good enough. Stories of struggle and generational bondage, but then there's also parts of my story of being a leader, being a spiritual guide, being a compassionate human, being a support person and I think both of those stories are true, but it's complicated and easy to get stuck in the hard parts of my story and the tension of my story. But yeah, it's it's definitely complicated, and a story that continues to unfold to this day as I continue in therapy. What about you? How are you the story that was told about you? Kathy Sure, so I shared this at our retreat on Sunday as we're going to explore this in our podcast today, one of the stories that I was told was that I could never measure up; I was not good enough, especially academically, and always trying to perform, please in my family of origin, and even now feeling that I don't live up to those expectations, but there was a marked period in my life where I decided to let go of that. It's still, like you said, an ongoing struggle to not live into the story we're told, but there was a time in my life where I decided, made a decision that I was not that story that I was told, but that I would be working against the story that I was told into a truer story. Kevin Can you unpack that a little bit? Like first, like how did you become aware of that story that was holding you back, that was keeping you stuck as we've talked about before? Kathy Sure. Kevin And what is the process of getting unstuck? Kathy Well, it was clear to me early on, this was like in college, there's an incident. I knew that I had a problem. achieved the highest levels that I could academically, and I would bring the results back to my family, and they were negatively received or not received in the way that I wanted them to be. It kept happening again and again. And even though I was more than content and satisfied with my progress, they were not. And that's where there was, if you want to call-- it's a dissonance, right? So there are two competing stories and they kept conflicting with each other. Kathy And I had to decide which story I wanted to tell. So I began to realize, even in this story that I was told that there are three main story myths: limiting stories, stories that keep us stuck throughout our lives. And that, typically, most everyone can identify with one or more of these. Kathy The first step in broadening your story or the story you were told is to identify what story myth resonates with you. Kevin What are those three story myths? Tell me a little bit about those. Kathy Sure. So the first one is, "I am not good enough". And you and I have already talked about that story myth and how it resonates within our lives. The child that somehow cannot please their parents in whatever way, looking for attention, wanting to be a star student. Not that there's anything wrong with all of the things that we're talking about, but when that becomes your perpetuating motive in your life, you're not living into your true story. You are still trying to be good enough. So the first story myth is, "I am not good enough". Kevin And how do we overcome it? Overcome if that is our story that is holding us back. How do we overcome that feeling? Because I know there's been times in my life where that was the story that was told about me, but I believed it. And the evidence that I had in my life was that what I was doing wasn't good enough. I wasn't living to my fullest potential. So, like thinking back to my 18, 19 year-old self, what could I say to him to help him in that story that he was stuck in, that I was stuck in and believed about myself because it was largely true. Kathy Well, this is where the power of story does come in. Number one would be to acknowledge maybe the places where you aren't good enough and begin to step out of the thick story into a broader story that is more a story of growth and change. So for me, for example, if I continued to believe the myth that I just wasn't good enough academically, that mindset would not help me to achieve. Instead, I had to begin to consider the possibility that maybe I was good enough and that that could potentially spark more growth and more abilities for me to step into the power and strengths that I actually had in my life. Instead of being stuck in, "Oh, that's Kathy, she just can't make the grades." Kevin Yeah, the way that I think about it is sometimes the way that we tell our story is that it's set, that there's a finality to it, right? That this is who I am and I'm not going to change. I'm not capable of change. What you're saying is the power of story is considering the possibility that, although it may be true that I'm not enough or my grades are not what I want them to be or my life is not what I want it to be, considering the possibility that maybe the story isn't set, maybe it isn't finished, maybe it isn't the final chapter, that maybe it's true that it's not enough and I want something to be different. And so I'm living into a new story out of that truth of I don't feel enough, but I'm going to seek out ways to have that story unfold in a new way going forward. That's so good. I think that makes so much sense that would be super intuitive for my young self that there was a lot that was pointing to the fact that I wasn't good enough and I wouldn't really amount to anything. I don't really know how things turned around for me, but looking back, I didn't want that to be my story. Kathy So you began to surround yourself with people who would write a new story for you. That's what happened in your life. I was there. You were around people like me who said, "no, your story isn't the, 'I didn't graduate from high school kid'. Your story is the story of someone who has a dream to go to Los Angeles and dream bigger than you can ever imagine for yourself and for your life." Kevin But part of it, I don't know if this is another, if this is related to another story myth, but I also believe that I was the only one that was struggling in this way that everybody else around me had their life together. I was the only one that was struggling. And what I learned is that those people around me that had their lives on a different path had come through a lot of trials and challenges and had overcome those. And because I learned that that was possible, I believed a new story for myself. Kathy And so you're touching on the second limiting story myth and that is "I am alone". Kevin Oh wow. Kathy "I am the only one going through this. No one understands." And here's the thing. It's true that nobody has gone through exactly what you're going through, when you're going through it, how you're going through it. But it's not true when we take on a mindfulness perspective about our story that says, "Okay, I am broke. I don't have any money. I don't know, I'm gonna lose my house." That there are others going through that right now, even as you say these words, right? And the antidote to this is the power of story because then you connect. Feeling alone is disconnecting. Sharing your story is connecting. Kevin How do you encourage somebody who's stuck in the "I am alone" story? It seems as though with this myth, there can be like a catch-22 scenario where they're alone and they don't have anybody to share their story with. And if sharing their story is gonna make them feel less alone, how do they break out of that? How does one who is actually alone and feels alone start using the power of their story to be less alone? Kathy Sure, and we don't wanna minimize the loneliness. The surgeon general has said that we're in an epidemic of loneliness. He's declared it a national emergency. So we're not minimizing anyone's loneliness or feelings of alone today. We wanna tell you that it is real. And so as he said, and as we say it, Be Well, "the antidote to loneliness is to reach out", is to find community, is to join a class, to go to your faith center community, to join one of our groups. We have a story class starting Wednesday mornings and it's virtual so you can join from wherever you are to reach out, to dispel the idea that you are alone, you are feeling alone. And so of course that is your truth, but to dispel that is by reaching out and connecting. Kevin Yeah, and one of the things I've learned from you and your work with students over the years is that oftentimes the student will start with you in private coaching and then you'll funnel them into a group setting and that is where they start to see some major breakthroughs in their life and start to overcome some of the obstacles in their life. Why is that? Why is it that somebody who is alone feels that their life starts to change when they're in a group setting as opposed to getting that help from a coach individually? Kathy Because we were created for community and relationships. So the mere fact of being related and connected in community is tapping into the true story of ourselves, that the Creator created us to be in relationship, is a relational God and desires us to be in relation and when we're not, we are literally cutting off of ourselves to how we were created. Kevin Mm-hmm, and that's how we get stuck in our story. Our story stops unfolding because we're not in community, part of what we were created for, yeah. And you said that there's three main myths. What's that? What's that third myth? Kathy Sure, so to review, "I am not enough" was the first one, the second one "is I am alone", and the third myth is "I am invisible". So this one is if you grew up as an invisible child in your family, you may struggle as an adult with a need to be seen. You know, it's the "pick me, pick me" sort of like, "oh I am not chosen." It is sometimes related to issues with belonging and fitting in. These folks grow up as sometimes literally talking louder than most people in the world to be heard and seen. It's very interesting. Kevin Wow, and what is the remedy? How do folks who feel invisible and are stuck in the story that I'm invisible -- how do they overcome that? Kathy So the folks that are invisible oftentimes have trouble leaning into their authentic story because they're denying their origin stories. Ironically, they wanted to be seen and then because they weren't, they deny the origin story. So one of the antidotes is a telling of their authentic story, like all the good, the bad and the ugly and sharing that authentically with the world, and with that then comes like we've said before that then they're heard and seen through the telling of their authentic story. They connect with someone who says, "wow, that happened to me too. Thank you so much for sharing that. I had no idea." And then they're no longer completely invisible, at least for that moment in time and space when they're being acknowledged for the very thing that they were denying. Kevin Yeah, I can imagine the folks who are set in the story "I'm invisible" only wanting to share the positive aspects of their story because they're wanting people to see them in a positive light. Perhaps there's this underlying belief that the reason why I'm invisible is because there's nothing valuable about me and so let me highlight the good things and leave behind the things that are causing me to be invisible. And what you're saying is that the exact opposite is true. Kathy But the broken pieces are the ones, yeah, the broken pieces are actually the connecting pieces, the missing pieces of the puzzle to help us feel more empowered, more seen, more heard, more connected. Kevin Yeah, that's really good. Kathy And one caveat I would say to everyone out there as you're exploring your origin story and your story misses, be sure to share your story with a trusted person. Sometimes you perpetuate this whole myth when I know someone who is an invisible person and they go back to their family of origin that continually perpetuates the idea they're invisible and they share the story and they're like, "So Kathy, they just shot me down" and I was like, "Okay, because you need to go to a safe and trusted person to share the story." Kathy So just one caveat there, don't go back to the same places where those reinforced stories were and thinking that, "oh, I'm gonna share my authentic story and now it's gonna work." Anything to say about that, Kevin? Kevin Yeah, no, I'm thinking is that we often go back to the origin of where we adopted that limiting aspect of our story to try to remedy them and thinking that if they can, if they're the ones that gave me this limiting story, they're the ones that reinforced that I'm alone, I'm invisible, I'm not enough. If I can go back and convince them that I am enough, that I'm not invisible, that perhaps that will make me feel better. And what I'm hearing you say is that, going back there is what reinforces the hurt and reinforces the false beliefs about ourselves and reinforces these myths that we believe that keep us stuck and set in our stories. Kevin And so instead we need to find safe people, new people perhaps who can see us, hear us affirm our story and set us on a new path of telling a new story and believing a new story about ourselves. Kathy Right, we wanna add characters to our story and we want the cheerleaders, we want the teammates, we want all of those people cheering us on as we write the new chapters or our story. Typically we can't go back to characters that have been left behind in the script. There's new characters that are being written in to tell a new story. Kathy So today we've learned the power of sharing, telling and embracing our stories to release or begin to begin a new story from our story myths. And if you love this topic, please consider joining our small group journey Reclaim that is starting Wednesdays from wherever you are. We're actually gonna be telling and writing our stories, which is a very powerful and healing in a community, a safe community. So check out our website for information to join that and thanks for joining us today. Kevin And so to end our episode today, I'd like to conclude with a story blessing by Jan Richardson. "You might think this blessing is a blessing that lives in the story that you can see. That it is curled up in a comfortable spot on the surface of the telling. But this blessing lives in the story beneath the story. It lives in the story, inside the story. In the spaces between. In the edges. The margins. The mysterious gaps. The enticing and fertile emptiness. This blessing makes its home within the layers. This blessing is doorway and portal. Passage and path. It is more ancient than imagining. It makes itself ever new. This blessing is where the story begins."

Al, Kevin, and Micah go through the games of the year and crown their winner for 2023. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:42: What Have We Been Up To 00:27:56: 2023 Releases 00:34:54: Previous Winners 00:36:30: Our Nominations 01:53:00: GOTY Debate 02:08:06: Decision 02:15:50: Outro Games Mentioned Games released this year Above Snakes Before the green moon Everdream valley Fae Farm Farming Simulator 23 Flutter Away Garden Buddies Garden In Harvest Moon: The Winds of Anthos Hello Kitty: Island Adventure Homestead Arcana Innchanted Lego Fortnite Loddlenaut Mineko's Night Market Moonstone Island My Time at SAndrock Paleo Pines Roots of Pacha Rune Factory 3 Special Season: A Letter to the Future Silent Hope Smushi Come Home Spells and Secrets Spirittea Sprout Valley Steamworld Build Story of Seasons: A Wonderful Life Sun Down Tchia Terra Nil Wildmender EA released in a previous year, 1.0 this year Ikonei Island Moondrop Sun Haven Coral island DDV EA released this year Cornucopia Fabledom Moonlight in Garland One Lonely Outpost Research Factory Song of the Prairie Snacko Previous Winners 2019: Doraemon SoS 2020: Summer in Mara 2021: Spiritfarer 2022: Ooblets Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of The Harvest Season. My name is Al. (0:00:39) Micah: I’m waiting, I’m waiting for you. (0:00:41) Kevin: Oh, I was waiting for you, too. I’m Micah. (0:00:44) Al: And we are here today to confuse you a lot. (0:00:46) Micah: And I’m Kev. (0:00:48) Kevin: There we go. (0:00:52) Al: It says, “We’re to talk about cottage core games.” (0:00:52) Kevin: Well, I mean, that goes without saying. (0:00:56) Al: Whoo! (0:00:57) Kevin: Whoo-hoo! (0:00:57) Al: Just, just in case people don’t know who they are, the names were the wrong way around there. (0:01:03) Al: So you know, they’re good luck. (0:01:06) Al: This is the fun episode of the year where I get two people on and we argue about which (0:01:14) Al: is the best game. (0:01:16) Al: And most of the time we come to a conclusion where we’re all accepting that that is our combined game of the year. (0:01:22) Kevin: Not this year. I refuse already. (0:01:26) Al: We will see where this year goes. (0:01:29) Al: But oh boy, oh boy, do I have some opinions. (0:01:34) Al: We’ll get to that when we get to that. (0:01:37) Al: Obviously transcripts are available for the episode and the show in general in the show notes and on the website. (0:01:44) Al: The game of the year stuff, Micah, what have you been up to? (0:01:46) Micah: I have been playing Dragon Quest Monsters 3 and I have also been playing Starfield quite a bit. (0:01:48) Al: Shock, shock harder. (0:01:52) Kevin: Good stuff. How many slimes are on your teeth? (0:01:59) Al: Interesting. What do you think? (0:02:01) Micah: I… (0:02:03) Micah: Okay. (0:02:04) Kevin: This, this is the response I hear every time I ask about it. (0:02:08) Micah: I very much understand two things. (0:02:14) Micah: I am a fan. (0:02:17) Micah: I am a fan of Bethesda game design and have been for many years. (0:02:22) Micah: So there is a level of comfort that comes with it. (0:02:27) Micah: I also understand that it is kind of dated game design. (0:02:33) Micah: And it all sort of feels the same as far as Bethesda goes. (0:02:40) Micah: But because I like that, I appreciate it. (0:02:44) Kevin: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I’m a Tetris fan, and Tetris hasn’t changed once in the 40 years it’s been out. (0:02:52) Al: That’s not true! That’s not true, Kevin. (0:02:54) Kevin: Yeah, I know that’s not true. (0:02:56) Al: We know, you know, you know that Tetris has changed. (0:02:58) Al: It has improved. It has moved with the times. (0:02:59) Kevin: Yeah, it is. (0:03:01) Micah: Tetris Effect is one of the greatest Tetris games of all time. Tetris 99. I would say, (0:03:04) Al: Exactly. Exactly. (0:03:06) Micah: I would actually argue that Tetris has done more changing than most franchises do. It’s kind of impressive. I don’t know, it’s kids. It can be cozy, right? Tetris can be a cozy (0:03:14) Kevin: You’re right, especially one we’re a fan of in particular. (0:03:19) Al: You don’t come, we don’t come for Tetris here, Kevin. (0:03:22) Kevin: I mean, we could. (0:03:28) Kevin: We could argue which one’s the best shaped piece. (0:03:31) Al: They also have their scam game that Cody’s playing. (0:03:31) Micah: Their scam game? No. (0:03:34) Kevin: Ah, well. (0:03:35) Al: Oh, have you not heard this, Micah? She’s playing a game that, like, you get points and then apparently once you hit a million or two million points you can win a free cruise, (0:03:45) Al: and I’m convinced it’s a scam. I’m waiting for the day that she gets to the right number of points and then, like, we never hear from her again because she’s, like, shipped off to have our organs harvested or something. (0:03:45) Micah: What? That does sound kinda scary. (0:03:49) Kevin: It does. (0:03:57) Micah: Dear God, all because of Tetris. (0:04:03) Kevin: Well, at least she had fun getting there. (0:04:05) Al: Anyway, so Starfield. (0:04:06) Kevin: That sounds like the game of the year to me. (0:04:10) Al: So what you’re saying is, if you like Starfield, you’ll like Starfield. (0:04:13) Al: That’s what you’re saying. (0:04:14) Micah: Yeah, if you like Bethesda games, Bethesda RPGs, (0:04:20) Micah: then you’ll probably like Starfield. (0:04:22) Micah: I think that there’s a lot of really neat things that they do with the. (0:04:27) Micah: Like space travel portions of it, there’s there’s a lot of really cool the like ship combat, space combat and stuff like that is very, very interesting. (0:04:37) Micah: It’s fun and the more that you kind of get comfortable with the how things function in the world, the you know, the more comfy of a game it is to. (0:04:49) Kevin: Okay, serious question. Have you played No Man’s Sky? (0:04:52) Micah: I have. (0:04:53) Kevin: to that (0:04:55) Micah: It is like if no man’s sky. (0:04:57) Micah: I had way more polished and was much more fleshed out and had much more like story elements to it. (0:05:09) Micah: I think that like primarily my enjoyment of Bethesda games comes from their writing. (0:05:17) Micah: And because there are just as an example, there’s a quest that I stumbled on by… (0:05:27) Micah: killing a space pirate and when I looked in his inventory there was a note and when I read the note that it unlocked this huge side quest that was like hours long. (0:05:40) Micah: Which is like I could have very easily missed that. (0:05:44) Micah: And I love that there’s such depth to like how stories play, like side stories even play out in Bethesda games like that. (0:05:57) Micah: So many times in Elder Scrolls games and things, you know, I’ll just stumble onto a cave and there’s a really deep story that’s written into this group that moved into this cave or whatever and it’s something that you could very easily miss. (0:06:16) Micah: It really makes me appreciate how much effort they put into writing things that people could never play in their, you know… (0:06:27) Micah: They’ll play through the game but there’s plenty of that in Starfield. (0:06:36) Al: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I’ve have enjoyed seeing a lot of the stuff online about all the kind of like side stuff, which has been for me, probably more fun than actually playing the game would be. So like, I totally get if you enjoy the game, then it makes it so much more fun, right? Because you’re finding all these things and just kind of stumble across this. But yeah, for me, it’s like, yeah, I enjoy watching someone post about it online or post a video or something like that. I think I know the side story you’re talking about, because that’s that’s the one that most people tend to go to. (0:06:42) Micah: Mm hmm. Yeah. (0:06:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:07:12) Micah: Yeah, it’s a pretty important one because it, especially early on it, it gives you access to things that you would not have otherwise, that are pretty important. (0:07:22) Al: Yeah, you just confirmed it’s the one I’m thinking of. (0:07:28) Al: OK, well, I’m glad you’re enjoying it. That’s the important thing. That’s what we play games for. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yeah, well, we, we actually could do greenhouse. (0:07:32) Micah: And you know, I could talk about Dragon Quest monsters endlessly, but I’ll save everybody’s. (0:07:37) Micah: I’ll save everyone’s ears for… (0:07:40) Kevin: I didn’t all gladly listen to Dragon Quest talk for. (0:07:42) Al: Let’s discuss that later. (0:07:44) Micah: Yeah, I think that’s probably what I’m gonna be hanging on to that for is the the later (0:07:52) Al: Awesome. Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:07:55) Kevin: So it’s been a hot mince I’ve been on I think and the biggest life update for people who haven’t heard I have kittens now (0:08:05) Micah: kittens? No. When you okay, when you say kittens, obviously plural, how many are we talking here? (0:08:06) Kevin: Have I not showing you the mic oh I will text you a picture right now (0:08:11) Kevin: Yes (0:08:15) Kevin: We’re talking too so We started off with one (0:08:20) Kevin: So we’re looking for a new place to move into and at one of the places we’ve kittens they were giving (0:08:25) Kevin: away and so we took one home and then after some discussions we said you know what I bet this kitten could use a companion so we went back and got one got one of her brothers and so we now went from no kittens to two kittens pretty much out of the blue their names are teddy and daisy (0:08:52) Kevin: They are about seven, eight weeks. (0:08:55) Kevin: They are about eight weeks old. (0:08:57) Kevin: This is my first time owning cats. I’ve had a dog before, but never cats. (0:09:02) Kevin: It’s been enjoyable there. (0:09:04) Kevin: Fun, energetic, Daisy in particular is a little gremlin who loves to run around. (0:09:08) Kevin: Teddy, the brother, he’s a lot more chill. (0:09:11) Kevin: He is, yeah, I’m loving them so far. I love animals, right? (0:09:15) Kevin: And they were so little when we got them. (0:09:17) Kevin: They were only like four weeks old when we got them. (0:09:20) Kevin: So they were really little. They were like tripled in size. (0:09:23) Kevin: I took them to the vet for the first time. (0:09:25) Kevin: Yesterday, and aren’t they precious I I will have to find of us an alpix so he can post it with the show (0:09:26) Micah: Oh my god. (0:09:33) Micah: Who who’s the which one is the white and gray one? (0:09:37) Kevin: That’s Daisy (0:09:38) Micah: That’s Daisy. (0:09:39) Kevin: Mm-hmm and then (0:09:40) Micah: Daisy looks very much like my brother’s cat, zero, who is 18 years old. (0:09:43) Kevin: Oh really, huh Wow Wow, that’s strong (0:09:48) Micah: But the like identical like pattern and facial structure and. (0:09:51) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, Teddy’s really cute. He’s got a tuxedo (0:09:55) Kevin: pattern. He’s got gray fur, but like little white paws and, um, and Daisy’s black or black gray spots. Yeah, they’re adorable. Um, so yeah, they can be a handful at times as I’m sure cat owners know they can get all over the place. (0:10:10) Kevin: But, um, but I’ve been enjoying. Um, so, uh, yeah, that’s the big thing really. But, uh, (0:10:16) Kevin: other than that, probably the biggest things I’ve been playing lately. Um, I’ve really been getting through Tears of the Kingdom finally. I’ve pretty much (0:10:25) Kevin: at the finish line I’ve done all the big quests I’m just kind of going around hitting up all the shrines and filling out the map and so on and so forth but I could go take on Ganon anytime. That game is phenomenal it’s great I mean I don’t have to go in-depth about it I’m sure everyone knows how good it is right right but yeah very good game I yeah not much I probably could add and then the The other one is a… (0:10:42) Al: Speaking of games that have secrets. (0:10:55) Kevin: Street Fighter 6 (0:10:58) Kevin: So I am a fighting game fan. I am bad at them, but I love them (0:11:03) Micah: Hey, me too. (0:11:04) Kevin: I picked it up. Yeah, yeah, you got right. I’ve only played two weeks (0:11:07) Micah: On both fronts. (0:11:10) Kevin: Have you picked up Street Fighter 6? (0:11:11) Micah: I have not. (0:11:12) Kevin: Micah, okay (0:11:12) Micah: I have some friends that I have watched play. (0:11:14) Kevin: Okay (0:11:18) Micah: And I have some friends that are extremely good at Street Fighter. (0:11:23) Kevin: Yeah, yeah good. Oh man, hats off to them. (0:11:24) Micah: So I’ve seen some, you know, stuff that I’ve seen gameplay that I don’t fully understand because it’s too… (0:11:33) Micah: high level for my small brain to comprehend, but… (0:11:40) Kevin: That’s fine, I’m playing it and it happens to me. (0:11:45) Kevin: So yeah, the two big things, I mean Street Fighter, right? (0:11:47) Kevin: It’s the iconic series, (0:11:48) Kevin: so I’m sure people know what it’s all about, it’s fighting. (0:11:51) Kevin: But the two big things that it brings, (0:11:54) Kevin: the first is called modern controls. (0:11:57) Kevin: They have a new control scheme (0:12:02) Kevin: that simplifies basically playing the game. (0:12:05) Kevin: So traditionally you’d have to do a motion on your control stick and a button and all sorts of crazy combinations to get moves out. (0:12:15) Kevin: But they simplified it, (0:12:16) Kevin: where you can get moves out with just the press of a button. (0:12:20) Kevin: It’s very beginner friendly. (0:12:23) Kevin: Because of the convenience of that, (0:12:25) Kevin: they balanced it by reducing the strength of the moves and things like that. (0:12:32) Kevin: I think it’s great. (0:12:33) Kevin: I don’t play it much myself, I like the classic stuff, (0:12:36) Kevin: but it’s fun to see people use it and be able to play, (0:12:41) Kevin: get in without having to worry about not being able to do the moves. (0:12:44) Kevin: I say that as someone who is not always able to do the moves. (0:12:50) Kevin: And the second big thing that they have is called world tour mode. (0:12:53) Kevin: Have you guys heard of this at all? (0:12:56) Kevin: Yeah, oh man. (0:12:58) Kevin: So World Tour Mode is their single player campaign. (0:13:02) Kevin: The real kicker is that it’s a create a character mode. (0:13:08) Kevin: So you create your own fighter, but they’re sliders to your physical attributes. (0:13:16) Kevin: So you can be as tall, skinny, short, whatever you want. (0:13:19) Kevin: You can make monstrosity looking characters and it will affect your gameplay. (0:13:24) Kevin: If you have long arms, you will be able to punch farther or whatever. (0:13:29) Kevin: It’s pretty fun making your own character. (0:13:32) Kevin: I love it. You can hang out with the cast, which are filled with fun dumb moments. (0:13:46) Kevin: You can text all the street fighters. It’s really funny. (0:13:48) Micah: I am a big fan of a really ridiculous character. (0:13:48) Kevin: It’s so good. It’s probably the most ridiculous one. Just today I saw somebody look like a spaghetti with arms. (0:14:02) Kevin: It’s so good. There’s an online mode where you can bring your creative characters. You can have your freak matches. It’s great. (0:14:10) Kevin: Everything about that game is fantastic. The presentation, the music, the online play works great. I rarely have any bad connections for matches. (0:14:22) Kevin: I’m the character I picked up. Her name is Manon. She is a French supermodel. (0:14:32) Kevin: She is also a judo wrestler. She throws all of that in her move. She does struts, she does pirouettes, and she’ll grow you around. (0:14:40) Kevin: She’s very fun to play. That’s what I’ve been up to. (0:14:44) Kevin: Alright, Senor Al, what about you? (0:14:48) Al: Not a huge amount. It’s been a weird week, but I’ve been playing a bit of a Highland song. So for Micah, probably, who isn’t aware, it’s a platforming game based in the Scottish Highlands, and part of it is rhythm based. And it’s absolutely gorgeous. It has great music. The story is really good, and I don’t play games with the sound on, but I… (0:15:18) Al: can’t play this game with the sound off. Like, it’s just even outside of the rhythm, but it’s just so good. Yeah. Like, a Highland song. And it’s fantastic. So, okay, yeah, (0:15:30) Kevin: Okay, what are the rhythm portions like, because I know it was the Scottish game, but I don’t know what it’s like. (0:15:36) Al: okay. That’s a fair question. That’s a fair question. So, to preamble to that, the idea is that you’ve got all these mountains, and you’re climbing over them, and you’re trying (0:15:48) Al: to get to specific points. And there are places in the game where, as you are walking, (0:15:54) Al: it will tell you to press B to run. And then as you’re running across a terrain, there are things in the way, and the rhythm bit is you have to press it in time to the music to keep going and jump over the rhythm. (0:16:08) Kevin: Okay, that’s fascinating. Huh. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a rhythm platformer in the (0:16:19) Micah: This is beautiful. (0:16:20) Al: Right. Right. And the best thing is, so when you’re standing on, when you’re standing on a hill in the game and you can see all of the hills around you, all of those hills are hills you can go to in the game. (0:16:32) Kevin: Oh wow, that’s nice. (0:16:34) Micah: Wow. Yeah, this is a really pretty game. I’ve never heard of this. (0:16:38) Al: Yeah, it’s really I’m loving it. It’s great. Yeah, yeah, I came out a couple weeks ago. (0:16:39) Micah: Is it new? (0:16:44) Al: But it’s fantastic. And all the Scottish accents are legitimate. So no terrible Shrek voices. (0:16:50) Kevin: But, I mean, come on, don’t you want at least one Shrek in there? (0:16:52) Al: No, no, no. Definitely not. Never, never, never. Shrek is fine in Shrek. Not outside. (0:16:56) Micah: No, that was a very immediate no. (0:17:00) Micah: No, no, no, no, no, no. (0:17:00) Kevin: Ah, fair enough. (0:17:06) Al: We have enough fake Scottish. (0:17:08) Al: Voices in the world, there are very few things where we actually get proper Scottish voices. (0:17:13) Al: So it’s nice to actually hear some. (0:17:14) Kevin: Fair enough. (0:17:15) Kevin: Is David Tennant in it? (0:17:17) Al: I don’t think so, no. (0:17:18) Kevin: the- I’m sorry. That’s a missed (0:17:21) Al: His voice, there was something, I can’t remember what it was I was watching the other day and I was like, “Oh, that’s David Tennant.” Like I always, anytime I hear him doing his normal voice, (0:17:29) Al: it’s like such a distinctive voice for me that I’m like, “Oh.” It’s like, (0:17:33) Al: Every so often, somebody learns that David Tennant is Scrooge McDuck. (0:17:38) Al: And they’re like, “What? How’s David Tennant?” I’m like, “How could you not tell? His voice is just so distinctly his voice.” (0:17:39) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:17:40) Kevin: - That’s… (0:17:47) Kevin: I, I didn’t know, I mean, I, I watched, I’m a big fan of the reboot of DuckTales, but I didn’t know it was David Tennant till a little bit in. (0:17:48) Al: Maybe that’s a Scottish thing, I don’t know. (0:17:57) Kevin: Um, and I didn’t realize he was Scottish. (0:17:59) Kevin: That’s, it’s really funny. (0:18:00) Al: Yeah, he’s not putting on a voice. He’s slightly emphasizing it, but that’s basically just his voice. (0:18:04) Kevin: Yeah, sure. (0:18:06) Al: Yeah, don’t do that again, Kevin. (0:18:06) Kevin: I like how he says “Gad-age” in the first episode. (0:18:09) Kevin: I always remember that one. (0:18:13) Kevin: That’s how he says it. (0:18:17) Al: So yeah, I’ve mostly been playing that and also been playing Pokemon because of the Flubbebe outbreaks, as I said, in the show notes. (0:18:27) Micah: Oh, that’s right (0:18:30) Al: baby baby. (0:18:31) Micah: Forgot that was going on. I forget it’s uh, well baby now and then (0:18:39) Kevin: Milsory in the (0:18:42) Al: So it’s current Flababy in Poldea. It is… no, it is not. It is Litwick in Kitakami. (0:18:48) Kevin: 3 in Kitikami. (0:18:52) Micah: Mmm. Yeah, because milsry is not in the game. (0:18:53) Al: Milcery isn’t in the game yet. Milcery will be in the Blueberry Academy when it comes out. So that’s why it’s not Milcery yet. It’s because it’s in the new region in the DLC. I think it’s just called the Blueberry Academy. Yeah. (0:19:01) Kevin: I haven’t gotten the DLC yet. (0:19:05) Micah: So just the new region, do we know what the new region is called? (0:19:07) Micah: Other than just, it’s the Blueberry Academy, is it just Blueberry Academy? (0:19:10) Kevin: That’s it. (0:19:11) Kevin: Yeah, it’s like an- it’s a- yeah, it’s part of- it’s Unovan territory, I guess, I know, (0:19:16) Kevin: but it’s like an artificial island sort of thing. (0:19:20) Al: Yeah, they call it like the. (0:19:21) Kevin: Terrarium. (0:19:24) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:26) Micah: means I almost fear honest I mean it’s the like vibe that I got from it when I yeah we’ll see it’s always we’ll see (0:19:26) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:28) Al: Yeah, it is pretty much, hopefully less evil, but we’ll see. (0:19:29) Kevin: now. (0:19:31) Kevin: Yeah, [LAUGH] I might get the DLC finally, the trit look. (0:19:40) Al: Oh, they are calling it the ceranium. (0:19:42) Al: They are calling it. (0:19:44) Micah: I was just recently finishing up my Pokedex, my like living decks in Violet in preparation for the DLC, but (0:19:57) Micah: there’s a lot of just figuring out how to who I knew who had the other Sinnoh starters, because you only get the like one egg. (0:20:11) Micah: And it’s dependent on, I guess, dependent on what starter you picked for. (0:20:15) Micah: For scarlet or violet. (0:20:16) Al: I think it was, or maybe it was random, I can’t- (0:20:20) Micah: I feel like it was, yeah, it seemed like from trying to track down where I would find a Piplup, it was, it was through like deduction power, the power of deduction (0:20:34) Micah: through who had what starter from the, from Paldea. (0:20:38) Micah: So I don’t know if that’s actually the case or not, but that’s, that’s how I managed to figure out who had. (0:20:44) Al: Yeah, I could probably find out if I cared enough. (0:20:52) Al: I mean, I still like, I don’t, I’m still enjoying it and I’m really looking forward to the new DLC, but Kevin, you don’t need to play it. (0:21:00) Al: You can just not. (0:21:02) Micah: It’s true. It’s true. I will say that I felt. (0:21:02) Kevin: Look, I’m– (0:21:09) Micah: I think we talked about this the last time I was on, actually. (0:21:10) Al: We did. (0:21:12) Al: We had a whole greenhouse episode about it. (0:21:14) Micah: I finally finished the DLC, the first DLC, because that was the right. (0:21:18) Al: Oh, yes. (0:21:19) Al: Yes. (0:21:19) Al: Cause you hadn’t finished it when we did the greenhouse. (0:21:21) Micah: And that is like rare for me, because I I go (0:21:25) Micah: pretty hard into Pokemon stuff when it launches for the first time. (0:21:28) Micah: So to not do that is kind of a new. (0:21:32) Micah: New and weird thing for me, but I finally finished it and I did enjoy it, but I did feel that it was a very, I don’t know, I just, I’ve, I’m still feeling like I’ve kind of become disillusioned with modern Pokemon to some degree, but. (0:21:49) Kevin: I mean and okay like to not I’m you know, I (0:21:54) Kevin: Notoriously nag on the game, but to pull the veil down a little to be you the more genuine here. I (0:22:00) Kevin: Do think the trailer for the upcoming one part looks good. I’m a bit excited for what I see (0:22:07) Kevin: the only part that (0:22:08) Al: Careful. (0:22:10) Kevin: Yeah, I know the only part that really irritates me is the flying thing how it’s locked behind the DLC because (0:22:18) Al: Yeah, I agree (0:22:19) Kevin: It’s just with knowing how the development cycle works and the timing of everything. It feels very intentional. They put bad flying (0:22:28) Al: Well, here’s the thing, I don’t care if it’s like, “Oh, we couldn’t get it done in time for release,” right? (0:22:34) Al: You still don’t have to lock it behind the DLC. (0:22:34) Kevin: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. Okay. But. (0:22:36) Al: They have updates. (0:22:37) Al: Every game has updates when there’s DLCs. (0:22:40) Al: So you absolutely don’t need to. (0:22:41) Al: It’s absolutely a very specific choice to lock that quality of life feature behind a purchase and that is bad and we should absolutely call that out. (0:22:49) Al: It’s not going to stop me buying the game though. (0:22:52) Micah: Yeah, I’m kind of in the same position. (0:22:56) Micah: I think there’s a lot of stuff that could just generally as far as the development cycle goes could have been changed for the better. (0:23:10) Micah: I had mentioned a little bit the like one time I’ve been on Twitter in the last like month after they talked about the they released. (0:23:22) Micah: It’s the new trailer this last week, I think. (0:23:24) Al: Yeah. (0:23:25) Micah: And they showed off the the like Pokemon control mode. (0:23:30) Micah: I forgot what they call it, but you can control the sync mode where you can control the Pokemon and run around as the Pokemon. (0:23:32) Al: Oh, yes, yeah, synchronize. Yeah. (0:23:32) Kevin: The sync mode thing. (0:23:40) Micah: And it seemingly has not much of a like use case other than you can battle Pokemon, but you just run around as a Pokemon. (0:23:50) Micah: And that to me, it. (0:23:52) Micah: Immediately, like I’d think back to when the games first came out and how much like disgruntledness there was with certain elements of the design that the games design, like how you couldn’t go into any of the houses. (0:24:09) Micah: But then they, you know, when they clipped out of bounds, then they found that there were like half designed internal locations like you could have gone into. (0:24:20) Micah: but it was very clear that they ran. (0:24:22) Micah: Out of time in the development cycle, just couldn’t, uh, so there are things like that where like I, it makes me feel like sync mode. (0:24:29) Micah: It was something that they just ran out of time on. (0:24:32) Al: So that’s possible, but I also think it could be along the lines of, like, let’s go Pikachu and Eevee to Legends, where we saw a clear direction they were moving. (0:24:43) Al: And it’s not necessarily, like, I don’t think anyone would say that the catching in Let’s Go was the way it was because they didn’t have enough time to do what they ended up doing in Legends, but it was more like a kind of moving in that kind of direction. (0:24:57) Al: And we see this with a lot of things in Pokémon where they do that, where it’s like, it’s It’s just a, it’s a. (0:25:02) Al: You’re prerequisite and the kind of like the game, it’s not like here’s a game, let’s build a game. Here’s another game. Let’s build another game, right? Like they’re constantly doing all these different things in these different games and having these different ideas. And that’s true. (0:25:04) Kevin: Yeah, baby steps. (0:25:16) Kevin: These I don’t think these are mutually exclusive either like (0:25:16) Micah: I think that I think that that I agree with that that makes sense. (0:25:22) Micah: But I do feel like there is a level of like (0:25:26) Micah: half baked development process for some of these things. (0:25:30) Micah: And I I am willing to, you know, give (0:25:30) Kevin: Oh, oh, they’re deaf at least. (0:25:34) Micah: well, for like like you said, for let’s go. (0:25:37) Micah: I think the the catch feature for let’s go was meant to more mimic Pokemon. (0:25:41) Micah: Go like it was very clearly there, like (0:25:46) Micah: the motion point between the main games and Pokemon go so that. (0:25:51) Micah: You know, catching style was intended to feel like I mean, it does feel like especially the motion control portion feels like Pokemon go. (0:25:52) Al: I mean, kind of, kind of, but I also like, with then we got only a few years later, legends, (0:26:05) Al: like it feels like it was what they kind of wanted to move towards and they were trying different things and this is what they ended up with. I don’t think it was just like, oh, (0:26:15) Al: let’s just make Pokemon go in a main series game. Like, I think it was, you know, they (0:26:22) Al: had a game which was legends where you were actually running around and literally just throwing Pokeballs at Pokemon, right? But, look, it’s not, yeah, I mean, it does show a flaw in how they developed their games and that these were almost certainly developed in parallel and therefore you can’t know what’s going to be popular and what’s going to end up working really well before you do it the next one. Yeah, I don’t disagree with you. (0:26:30) Kevin: And then they said, “Let’s go backwards at the next game.” (0:26:52) Al: I want that again. But anyway, we don’t need to keep talking about Pokemon. Let’s move on, shall we? This happens every couple of months we end up on another Scarlet and Violet delve. It did, it did. It did, but, you know, I need to save some of my Pokemon talk for a different podcast. Anyway, it’s, wow. Wow. (0:27:03) Kevin: But the trailer just came out. It was… it was gonna- (0:27:16) Kevin: We’re doing a worst games of the year pocket. (0:27:22) Al: Anyway, that’s what we’ve been up to. And I’m glad that we got a good half an hour out of that because there is no news because this is recorded out of time. Because I don’t know about you guys, but I did not want to record this on, you know, Hogman A. So we’re recording it a few weeks early. (0:27:46) Kevin: Where’s your dedication out? (0:27:49) Micah: What do you have things to do geez [laughs] (0:27:52) Al: So yes, yes, I do. So we are here to discuss our favourite games of the year and hopefully come to a conclusion on what the podcast’s game of the year is. So begins the part of the podcast where I read a bunch of words. So I am going to go down all of the games that were released this year. And at what point does this become ridiculous? I don’t know is this the most (0:28:22) Al: games we’ve had released in a year since we started the podcast? (0:28:24) Al: Yes, it absolutely is. (0:28:24) Kevin: Probably. (0:28:26) Al: Absolutely insane. (0:28:27) Al: One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine. (0:28:29) Kevin: More than three, I’ll tell you that. (0:28:31) Kevin: I didn’t know Homestead Arcana- (0:28:32) Al: So 30, 30, 30 games, (0:28:36) Al: 31, 30, 35 games, and then one, two, three, four, five, six, seven released (0:28:42) Al: into Early Access. So was that 42, 42 games in this list? (0:28:47) Al: So this is the first list is the list of (0:28:50) Al: that were released. (0:28:52) Al: Not into early access and they previously weren’t in early access. (0:28:56) Al: This is brand new games this year. (0:28:58) Al: Brand new games not early access. (0:29:00) Al: I don’t know why I overcomplicated this, but here this is what we’re doing. (0:29:04) Al: So this is Above Snakes, Before the Green Moon, Everdream Valley, Fae Farm, Farming Simulator 23, Flutter Away, Garden Buddies, Garden Inn, Harvest Moon, The Winds of Anthos, Homestead Arcana, Enchanted, Loddle Knot, (0:29:20) Al: Maneko’s Night Market. (0:29:22) Al: And this is me just double-taking. (0:29:48) Micah: Now if you thought that was it. (0:29:52) Kevin: I’m gonna feel bad when one of the real games of the year is in here and the ones that I didn’t play. (0:29:52) Al: Well, this is part of the problem. (0:30:00) Al: So next we have five games that were released in 1.0 this year and early access a previous year. (0:30:07) Al: OK, so they were already out, but they came to their 1.0. (0:30:11) Al: They left early access this year. (0:30:13) Al: That’s a better way of describing it. (0:30:14) Al: These games left early access this year. (0:30:16) Al: And we have Icone Island, Mindrop, Sunhaven, Coral– (0:30:22) Al: Island, and Disney Dreamlight Valley. (0:30:24) Al: And then we have the list of seven games that came into early access this year. (0:30:28) Al: And that is Cornucopia, Fabledom, Moonlight in Garland, One Lonely Outpost, (0:30:35) Al: Research Story, Song of the Prairie, and Snacko. (0:30:39) Al: Hey, Micah, is this the first time you’re learning that Snacko’s in early access? (0:30:42) Al: Or did you know that already? (0:30:43) Micah: Uh, no, yesterday when I opened Notion was the first time I learned this neck wasn’t really (0:30:50) Al: Well, surprise! (0:30:52) Al: in early access now. (0:30:55) Micah: I have I’ve played the betas or the alphas, sorry. (0:31:01) Micah: And I have decided that I don’t want to do much more with the game until it (0:31:10) Micah: they get a full release because I love it. (0:31:13) Micah: love it so far and I don’t want to overdo it. (0:31:16) Kevin: Yep, don’t burn yourself out on it. I know somebody who was a big fan of Hades, but they only played in the Early Access and they burned themselves out. (0:31:23) Micah: I don’t think I could burn myself out on it really as much as it’s just that like, I don’t want to miss out like because I backed it. And I want to, I don’t know, experience the full experience I’ve experienced so much of it at this point. (0:31:38) Al: I think that’s fair. I got to the same point with Coral Island last year where I was like, (0:31:43) Al: “And now I’m going to put it down into 1.0.” But I mean, that was like 40 hours or 50 hours or something like that. It was more than I play a lot of games, you know? And I didn’t feel like playing that much ruined the experience for me when I came to the final version, because I’ve put in more than… I’m up to 100 hours now in that game. So I think it depends on the game. (0:31:55) Micah: Mm-hmm. (0:32:07) Al: Uhh. (0:32:07) Al: Ah. (0:32:08) Al: But that is a fair point. (0:32:11) Al: I have not decided what I’m going to do with Snacko. (0:32:14) Al: I’ve not decided yet. (0:32:16) Kevin: Why did nobody tell me homestead arcana came out? I would have played it, I missed that. (0:32:21) Al: Kevin! (0:32:23) Kevin: I’ve been here. (0:32:24) Micah: Have I got news for you. (0:32:29) Al: Kevin, you literally, we literally have a shared list of all of these games and when they coming out, you can look at it all the time and I’m constantly updating it just to let you know that is a thing. (0:32:31) Kevin: Well, hey. (0:32:42) Kevin: You assume I read these even when we’re recording. (0:32:43) Al: Nope, I don’t assume that at all, but I will complain about it. (0:32:49) Al: So any thoughts before we get into listing our favorite games, any thoughts on the list as a whole? (0:32:56) Al: Here we go. (0:32:56) Kevin: Umm… (0:32:57) Kevin: Ugh… (0:32:58) Micah: It’s a good list (0:32:59) Kevin: It’s a very good list. It’s too good. (0:33:01) Micah: It’s a strong list that I (0:33:06) Micah: when I opened this this document and looked at it I was a (0:33:11) Micah: Surprised that so many games had come out this year and be a little bit (0:33:17) Micah: Concerned about how few of these games I actually played (0:33:20) Kevin: Exactly! (0:33:22) Kevin: Alright, time to strike out all the ones none of us have played. (0:33:26) Al: Yeah, no, that’s fair. And I think it is interesting, right? Because like, I’ve now been tracking these games. I think I have all of the farming games that have released ever now in my list. (0:33:36) Al: And so that’s 47 this year. Last year, there were 24. In 2021, there were 15. In 2020, (0:33:46) Al: there were nine. In 2019, there were 13. And then we’ve got like, between 2016 and 2018, (0:33:54) Al: were 16. (0:33:56) Al: So that’s like a three-year span, and they were the same number as they were in 2021. (0:34:03) Al: And then 2010 to 2015, there were 12 of them, half of which were just farming simulator, (0:34:10) Kevin: Yeah. (0:34:10) Al: and the other half were just harvest moon. (0:34:13) Al: That’s not true. (0:34:16) Al: There were three harvest moons, two rune factories in one story of seasons, and an animal crossing. (0:34:21) Al: So the rest were farming simulator. (0:34:23) Al: And then the five years before that, there were 17. (0:34:26) Al: It is wild that Stardew Valley is eight years old in February, just saying. (0:34:36) Kevin: Yup, thanks Stardew Valley. (0:34:43) Kevin: You changed the whole landscape of the genre of gaming, thanks. (0:34:50) Kevin: I thought it was older, to be honest. (0:34:53) Al: No, 2016. (0:34:56) Al: Right. (0:34:56) Al: Well, I mean, shall we get right into it then? (0:34:59) Al: Let’s go for one each around, what should we do around the table? (0:35:04) Al: One each. (0:35:04) Kevin: All right. (0:35:05) Al: And we can tell, say what the game is and tell me why you’ve got it in the list. (0:35:12) Al: And we’re not doing, no, it’s a terrible game. (0:35:15) Al: So Micah, would you like to go with your first one? (0:35:18) Micah: Uhhh… Can I go with my wildcard first? (0:35:20) Al: You can, you can go in whatever order you want. (0:35:22) Al: If you want to leave your strongest for last, go for it. (0:35:25) Al: if you want to start with your strong. (0:35:26) Al: Go for it if you want to do your crazy one first, do what you want. (0:35:29) Micah: I’m going to get my wild card out of the way because I know that it’s not going to go very far so. (0:35:31) Al: Let’s go for it. (0:35:34) Al: Never assume these things, you have no idea what’s going to happen. (0:35:37) Micah: OK, that’s true. You’re right. My my. (0:35:37) Kevin: I, I, yep, I. (0:35:39) Al: Oh wait, before we get into that, let me just quickly. (0:35:45) Al: I want to go through what we have had as our games of the year in the past. (0:35:51) Al: Last year, Ooblets won. (0:35:54) Al: 2022, Ooblets won. (0:35:57) Al: But it did. (0:35:58) Al: 2021 was Spiritfarer. (0:36:01) Al: 2020 was Summer in Mara. (0:36:04) Al: And 2019 was the Raymon Story of Seasons. (0:36:07) Kevin: Wildflower was robbed. (0:36:09) Micah: What year was Wildflowers? (0:36:11) Kevin: I don’t I (0:36:11) Micah: Oh. I mean. (0:36:11) Al: Yeah, Wildflowers last year. (0:36:13) Micah: Ooblitz though. (0:36:16) Al: None of the three of us had played it. (0:36:18) Al: And Kevin, you hadn’t played it by that point either. (0:36:20) Al: So… (0:36:21) Micah: Also- Also Ooblitz is- (0:36:21) Kevin: That is correct. (0:36:26) Al: Ooblets was the only… (0:36:27) Al: Well, you hadn’t played Ooblets, but me and Bev had. (0:36:30) Micah: Yes. (0:36:31) Al: And you had a wild card last year as well. (0:36:33) Al: So what’s your wild card this year? (0:36:35) Micah: What was my wildcard last year? (0:36:37) Al: Shinshan Summer Vacation. (0:36:38) Micah: Oh, I mean, that is actually I still stand by that. (0:36:44) Al: Look, I’m not saying it’s a bat, I’m just saying. (0:36:46) Al: Like it was a little bit out of life field, (0:36:47) Al: neither of us had heard of that game before you brought it up. (0:36:50) Micah: Well, let me tell you about my wildcard for this year, which I guarantee you have heard of. (0:36:55) Micah: There is absolutely no scenario where you have not heard of this game. (0:37:00) Micah: Are you ready? (0:37:02) Kevin: Is it the princess game? (0:37:03) Micah: It is Fortnite. (0:37:07) Al: OK, why? (0:37:08) Al: OK, so you– wait, no, no, right. (0:37:10) Al: OK, so, Micah, you’re telling me that over the past three days, (0:37:12) Micah: Uh-huh. Yeah. (0:37:16) Micah: Yes. (0:37:17) Al: you have played this game enough to consider it one of your favourite games of the year? (0:37:20) Micah: I would say that there’s a reason that it’s a wild card. (0:37:27) Micah: And I would say that it is probably the reason that it’s in my list is not because I would (0:37:33) Micah: personally consider it one of my favorite games of the year. (0:37:36) Micah: But I think that it is a very important bridge (0:37:42) Micah: for the wider Fortnite audience, which is massive, into the world of farming sims. (0:37:50) Al: Well, we will have talked about it in a previous episode, so. (0:37:50) Kevin: And hey, if we let them win… (0:37:52) Micah: For anybody that is confused by this and doesn’t understand why Fortnite is part of this conversation, (0:37:59) Micah: they just released… (0:38:02) Micah: Yes, the Fortnite, the LEGO Fortnite mode has been released as of three days ago. So… (0:38:10) Al: And for some reason, it’s basically Minecraft, but with more farming. It’s wild! (0:38:10) Kevin: Minecraft for tonight. (0:38:12) Micah: Yes, and also as Legos, and it’s in Fortnite. (0:38:15) Kevin: Yeah. (0:38:18) Micah: I don’t really know if there’s aside from skins and characters, there’s not. (0:38:21) Kevin: Wait, is it actually Lego brand? Lego? What? Holy moly. (0:38:24) Al: It is, it is. (0:38:25) Micah: Yes, it’s actually Lego brand. (0:38:28) Micah: And it’s you are just building Lego, (0:38:30) Micah: like a Lego like homestead basically of a village in the wild. (0:38:36) Kevin: That’s… (0:38:37) Micah: It’s essentially a survival, it’s more of a survival game than it is like (0:38:42) Kevin: Mm-hmm. (0:38:42) Micah: a farming sim. (0:38:43) Micah: So it’s more like you gotta eat and you gotta, there is, (0:38:44) Kevin: It’s all Minecraft. (0:38:44) Al: Yeah, but there does seem to be a decent amount of farming in it. (0:38:49) Micah: there is a decent amount of farming in it. (0:38:51) Micah: And I’ll say that I have played quite a bit of it because the team that I work with has been very into it. (0:38:59) Micah: So, and prior to that coming out, we had all been playing Ark, (0:39:06) Al: » Okay. Yeah. (0:39:06) Micah: the dinosaur survival game. (0:39:09) Micah: So we had a server that we were playing that on. (0:39:11) Micah: So when a new survive. (0:39:12) Micah: Survival type game released and it’s Fortnite and it’s free and it’s Lego then we were like, okay, well, let’s play this instead so we have been playing quite a bit of it and it’s I was a little bit shocked at how good of an experience it is because it’s it it’s just odd because it’s got other than the skins and the characters there’s and I guess the the game that it that you access it from there’s nothing related to Fortnite really it’s super obvious. (0:39:19) Al: suck (0:39:44) Al: No. Well, I think your character is in the beginning based on the main, the base Fortnite playable character, right? Yeah. It’s not Fortnite. It’s not Fortnite at all. So a couple of things I found interesting about this. So first of all, it made me realize that Fortnite is not just Fortnite anymore, right? Like Fortnite was just a battle royale, but that is just one of eight different game modes, right? Absolutely wild to me. (0:39:52) Micah: Yes. Yeah. So aside from the characters, I mean, it’s it’s really there’s not a lot of no, it’s not a (0:40:06) Kevin: Oh, it hasn’t been for a while. (0:40:08) Micah: Yeah. Right. (0:40:14) Al: That’s the point now. And second of all, not only is this, it’s like, it’s not just Fortnite, but Lego. It’s Fortnite, but Lego, if they made it Minecraft, but with more farming. (0:40:30) Al: And I am just, it’s just so fascinating. So I haven’t played a huge amount of it. I’ve downloaded it and I’ve started playing it and I’ve kind of done the first couple of things. And it’s not really grabbing me. I don’t think I’m going to spend a huge amount of time on it, but I think (0:40:44) Al: so. Minecraft, when we covered Minecraft on the podcast, it was, it was a bit of a stretch, (0:40:48) Al: right? There is farming, but it’s very limited. It’s like, it was four crops or something. There might be more now. Minecraft has done a lot since then, but it felt like a bit of a stretch. (0:40:58) Micah: Yeah, there is a significant differences between, you know, yeah, there’s quite a bit to do in Fortnite now, or in Minecraft, I mean. (0:41:05) Al: Yeah, but this feels like a legit farming game, but it’s not cottagecore. It’s survival farming game. (0:41:06) Kevin: Minecraft has not stopped growing, they do annual updates. (0:41:16) Micah: Mm hmm. (0:41:19) Micah: Yeah, so I guess it kind of it also is a little bit of like how you play it. (0:41:24) Micah: So like, granted, there is a survival aspect that needs to be taken care of. (0:41:29) Micah: But depending on who you’re playing with or the the you know, (0:41:32) Micah: there is a like peaceful mode that you can do similar to what Minecraft had, (0:41:36) Al: That’s a good point. (0:41:36) Micah: where it’s not really you don’t have to play the survival mode. (0:41:40) Micah: You can play it just for the sake of like, you know, (0:41:43) Micah: the kind of like sandbox aspect of it. (0:41:46) Micah: Where you’re building stuff and doing whatever you want. (0:41:46) Kevin: farming and whatnot. (0:41:48) Micah: Yeah. (0:41:49) Micah: But, you know, like with my group, I’m not as big into the survival aspects of it. (0:41:54) Micah: Like I don’t particularly care about, you know, min maxing food and water and so on and so forth. (0:42:01) Micah: I’m more into the like building and designing and, you know, farming and that stuff. (0:42:07) Micah: So I kind of take on that role while everybody else takes on the survival portion of it. (0:42:14) Micah: So there are different ways. (0:42:16) Micah: Is to be able to play it that make it a little bit more of like a comfortable experience. (0:42:22) Micah: I mean, I literally built a cottage, so I don’t know, you know. (0:42:25) Al: Yeah, that’s, I think that’s totally fair. I guess my point of what I was saying was, (0:42:26) Kevin: Nice. Well, there you go. (0:42:31) Al: was like, I think this is much more legitimate as a farming game than Minecraft was when, (0:42:38) Al: when we covered it. So I think it’s, it’s totally fair to count this as a farming game. (0:42:39) Micah: Right. (0:42:40) Kevin: Yeah. (0:42:42) Al: So maybe I should add it into the list as Lego Fortnite. Um, but here’s a question for you. Does this make Fortnite the most downloaded farming game ever? (0:42:44) Kevin: Oh, there you go. (0:42:54) Micah: That’s why I I’ve included it because I think it is important touchstone in the history of farming games where it (0:42:54) Kevin: Absolutely. (0:43:05) Micah: There’s a possibility I can see a world in which people who play this (0:43:10) Micah: Enjoy it enjoy the like farming aspects of it want more of that and branch out into other farming type games (0:43:17) Micah: because there is such a broad audience for fortnight that (0:43:21) Micah: You know and it’s there’s such a broad (0:43:24) Micah: Audience for Lego - that there is a good (0:43:30) Micah: Possibility that it creates more farming game fans, which I’m all for (0:43:35) Al: I’ve added it into the list and also I need to add one more that I forgot, which was Hello Kitty Island Adventure. (0:43:42) Kevin: Oh, yeah, well (0:43:42) Micah: I did see that that was missing from the list and I didn’t know if that was intentional or not so it just… (0:43:46) Al: Oh, you should have brought it up. Come on. (0:43:46) Kevin: Glaring a bit omission this entire show is a sham (0:43:51) Al: Look, look, we’re now up to 49 games, right? I’m sorry, I can’t keep track of the ball. (0:43:56) Kevin: It’s quick Somebody find one more quick Um one well, you know though what we have to do is we have to let fortnite win (0:44:03) Kevin: So we can get that sponsorship money. Welcome to the harvest season of fortnite podcast (0:44:06) Micah: - It’s true. (0:44:09) Micah: Of Fortnite, but I never, I just did not ever foresee (0:44:15) Micah: there being a scenario where in the farming game of the year discussion or just in general on a harvest season episode that I would be bringing up Fortnite in a like semi-serious way. (0:44:26) Kevin: Yeah, one thing I will I haven’t played Fortnite ever, but from what I understand, every time they bring in these new distinct modes or gameplay elements, it’s always very polished and good quality. (0:44:44) Kevin: Like they brought in Spider-Man swinging and Attack on Titan, so I’m not surprised that this is high quality and that’s a lot of money being thrown at this Lego money, Fortnite money. (0:44:57) Al: Alright, well, you’re probably right, it’s probably not going to win, but it’s there, (0:45:02) Al: it’s in the list, not many games get into the list. So, there we go. No, into the list of the two, there’s only nine. It’s only nine. Alright, Kevin, what’s your first? (0:45:06) Kevin: Nope just 48 others. Oh (0:45:10) Kevin: Our list, okay (0:45:15) Kevin: My first one I’m going to go with (0:45:19) Kevin: Manekos night market a shocker to everyone the game I’ve been pining for for how many years now. Oh (0:45:27) Kevin: gosh (0:45:28) Al: Like five, like maybe six. (0:45:31) Kevin: Yeah, I don’t know something like (0:45:32) Al: I think it was six years ago it was first. (0:45:33) Kevin: well (0:45:36) Kevin: Yeah, I think it’s I’ve the fact that I waited that long and still was happy with what came out I think is a testament to how good the game is (0:45:48) Kevin: Obviously, I haven’t played all these other games and it probably not even the ones on your guys list but I (0:45:54) Kevin: Out of the ones I see here. I probably I would argue it has the most personality and charm (0:46:02) Kevin: the art, the sort of craft book art. (0:46:06) Kevin: It has gone very, very enjoyable. (0:46:10) Kevin: I haven’t beaten it myself, right? (0:46:12) Kevin: It loses some points because it came out with a handful of bugs and rough edges. (0:46:18) Kevin: But it’s still a game that makes me smile every time. (0:46:24) Kevin: So yeah, I gotta give a shout out to Maneko because I think it actually did deliver. (0:46:30) Kevin: Um, obviously, you know, it’s not the scale of tears that– (0:46:36) Kevin: Kingdom waiting six years for that or whatever, but for the get what it set out to be from all the trailers and whatnot, I think it delivered. It’s very cute, which I appreciate now. I have cats myself. Yeah. (0:46:48) Al: Yeah, totally fair, and it is still the wallpaper on my phone and has been for like seven months, (0:46:57) Kevin: Yeah, there you go. Also actually one thing I (0:47:01) Kevin: Yeah, that’s the good stuff (0:47:04) Kevin: one thing I do want to add (0:47:06) Kevin: Go on as we talked about in the episode. We talked about it. Um, the (0:47:11) Kevin: titular night market part of it is very fun (0:47:15) Kevin: Auctioning going into little bid war with customers to sell who and make profits and whatnot (0:47:20) Kevin: I don’t think a lot of these other games are focused on that like making money (0:47:26) Kevin: So that was (0:47:27) Kevin: a refreshing angle approaching the whole cottagecore thing. (0:47:32) Kevin: And again, just very fun points for that. (0:47:36) Al: Awesome. (0:47:36) Micah: Uh, I, are, are we just for the sake of the structure? (0:47:43) Micah: Are we just going through our picks and then discussing them or are we? (0:47:48) Al: If you have more to talk about that game just now, then feel free. (0:47:53) Al: We don’t need to discuss whether it’s the winner yet or not. (0:47:55) Micah: Sure, uh, oh (0:47:55) Al: And don’t say whether it’s on your list yet or not. (0:47:56) Kevin: Yeah. (0:47:58) Al: We’ll get to that. (0:47:59) Micah: Okay, I (0:48:00) Kevin: Alright. (0:48:03) Kevin: Michael, what’s next on your list? (0:48:03) Al: Right, we don’t want to look, Micah, we have a collapsed list for the suspense. (0:48:05) Micah: Didn’t didn’t say one way or another (0:48:05) Kevin: I’m kidding, I’m kidding. Ow, ow. (0:48:11) Al: We’re keeping the suspense, even if it might really be obvious now. (0:48:12) Micah: Okay, you’re right you’re right you’re right (0:48:14) Kevin: Alright. (0:48:16) Micah: It’s not though cuz I’m changing it at the moment I’m typing no, I’m just kidding [laughing] (0:48:18) Al: All right. I’ll go with my wild card. No, no, come on. I’m going with my wild card, (0:48:24) Kevin: Alright, ow. (0:48:26) Kevin

The first episode of the 4th season of "Coping" discusses practices for celebrating Thanksgiving and carrying gratitude through the entire year. Kathy and Kevin love Thanksgiving for the food, family gatherings, and chance to reflect on blessings because reflection can bring about new direction and understanding. Practices like daily celebration and reflection can build gratitude. Learn how you can turn your Thanksgiving into Thanks-living and join us on December 7th, 2023 for our "Review Your Year" workshop. Kevin: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to a new season of coping. Kathy: Yes, today we're pausing our series on rest to have a special Thanksgiving podcast. Kevin: Yes, we hope that you all are enjoying your Thanksgiving week. If that's when you're listening to this episode. We wish you all a very happy Thanksgiving. Kathy: What's your favorite part of Thanksgiving? Kevin: Good question. Okay, so this is going to surprise you a little bit. My favorite part about Thanksgiving is how much food is made and that it gets spread out over many more meals after the holiday itself. Which -- you know me really well --it's strange because I don't actually like leftovers other times of the year. It's really only Thanksgiving that I enjoy having the same food multiple days after the big feast. Kathy: And I'm the opposite. I love leftovers and I love spreading out all my meals. So I'm excited to talk about Thanksgiving, leftovers, pumpkin pie, I'm getting hungry already. Kevin: Yes. Kathy: Let's get started. Kevin: So this week we celebrate Thanksgiving and I know it's one of your favorite holidays. Why do you love Thanksgiving so much? Tell me about it. Kathy: Yes, I think I love Thanksgiving. Of course, it's always about the food on the foodie. But I think the deeper celebrations of gathering around tables, it is a holiday celebrated by most everyone. I like the inclusive nature of the holiday. And I love the focus on gratitude, celebration, Thanksgiving, and the gifts of this year. Kevin: I know also that your birthday, especially this year, falls really close to Thanksgiving. And so in our household, it's a really fun time of year where we get to do a lot of celebrations for you and then lead us right into Thanksgiving holiday meal and time with family. Kathy: And so let's revisit this concept of the leftovers that we discussed earlier. Talk to me a bit about that. What is this Thanksgiving leftover theory that you have? Kevin: You know, when I think about Thanksgiving and gathering with friends and family, and food being the centerpiece of that, the thing that gathers us together. And I love that idea that we have one big elaborate feast with friends and family for fellowship, but what we take with us is not just the food and a carryout, to-go bag, but we take with us those memories that shared time together, and then it rolls itself into the rest of the weekend, into the rest of the end of the year. And it's just a, I think, a great opportunity for us to remember that giving thanks doesn't have to be just one time a year, that we should have a practice of giving thanks. Kathy: Yeah, I really love this. One of my favorite authors Ann Voskamp says that, "our goal is to turn our thanksgiving into thanks-living." And we have done one of our previous podcasts on this, and we had a guest, Anleisha, who told us her story about that. But I think today's podcast, we wanna give some practices that will help turn this Thanksgiving into Thanks-living. Kathy: The first is celebration. How do you use celebration as a spiritual practice? Kevin: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Celebration is a big one. So let's start with the definition. Oxford Dictionary tells us that celebration is the action of marking one's pleasure at important events or occasions by engaging in enjoyable and typically social activities. And so we all do this in really natural ways, right? We have our birthdays and anniversaries and, you know, the holidays, it's on our minds, it's on our calendars. We gather and we celebrate these things. I think perhaps this year, more than most, the practice of celebrating in the midst of so much chaos in the world, so much upheaval in our personal lives, celebration may not feel like a natural thing. It may not be our natural inclination this year. And so what I want to call to mind is another type of celebration, another type of Thanksgiving in the midst of so much chaos. And I'm reminded of a quote from a dear friend of mine, Father Mark, who always likes to say, "it's always important to balance the bitter with the sweet." And what he means by that is to remember the sweetness of life when life feels especially bitter. And the best way to do that is with a piece of cake, a piece of pie, a little bit of ice cream or some candy, something just to savor and to enjoy in the midst of very unenjoyable times in our lives. And so I think maybe this Thanksgiving is where we take time to balance all the bitter in the world with a little bit of sweetness. And that's the food that's on the table, the friends that sit around the table with us and the fellowship that we get to share. Kathy: Yeah, that's such a wonderful practice, an idea. Speaking from my recent celebration experience of this past week, which was my birthday, it was a great pause in the midst of a very chaotic and difficult month, I would say, to focus on joy and gratitude. And it was uplifting. It didn't seem natural. It didn't seem like, "oh, let's stop and celebrate." But we did anyway. And we were all better as a result. I love Adele Calhoun in her book, Spiritual Disciplines Handbook. She speaks of celebration as one of those disciplines. And she says, “when we're able to set our hearts on this joy, it reminds us that we can choose how we respond to any particular moment.” When we can set our hearts on joy, that will remind us that we can choose how we can respond to any particular moment. Kevin: That's right. If we can choose to celebrate in the midst of chaos, that also teaches us how to respond in times of crisis. So we have this practice of celebration, and we know the importance of celebrating daily and weekly and monthly as we just talked about. What is another practice that we can do to extend thanksgiving to every day of the year? Kathy: Sure. The next one we want to discuss is the practice of reflection. So we just talked about celebration. And that is a pause. Reflection is also a pause, but it's the intentional practice of pausing to remember. We are doing the looking back in order to figure out how to move forward. And this could take the form of written, where we're doing like journaling, that sort of thing, or it can be oral where people are, even like if you think about reflection happens in memorial services, where we're doing a reflection back -- Kevin: Telling stories. Kathy: Telling stories. Correct. You and I do a year-end review with our family, where we actually look back. Kevin: Yeah. So we've developed this booklet, it's called Year in Review, that we do every year and as the kids have gotten older we've included them in this and it's kind of a fun ritual that we do in our family. But basically there's these questions that we look back on the year and talk about and write the answers down and some of the questions that come to mind are like your biggest accomplishment this last year, best new purchase -- Kathy: Favorite movie, best vacation -- Kevin: Best new hotel, best new restaurant, things like that. Kathy: Hardest challenge. Kevin: Yeah, there's a lot of really good questions to reflect on and to remember and I'm always surprised at the end of the year, the amount of things that we did. The year goes by so fast and I think I have developed a practice of forgetting in order to cope with all of the challenges in life. But when we choose to reflect and then remember the good things in the midst of all the hard things that have happened, it's always such a meaningful practice. And I always feel like the year feels a little bit more meaningful because we take that time together as a family. Kathy: Yeah, I love what you said about the forgetting part, right? So much is happening. We need the pause. And that reminds me of Emily Freeman's quote, where she says, "the problem isn't that we aren't learning. The problem is that we forget." So I think what happens is we're just going 24-7. And we're consuming a lot and we're never pausing to digest it and then also figure out what we have learned. Kevin: Right. Kathy: So if we don't take these pauses for reflection, we're not making the most of the opportunities that come our way when we can't reflect back on that. They just are just sort of like passing us by. So let's just say that we go through the whole we go through a year, years, not journaling or making note of or highlighting things. Then we turn around and years have passed and we're like, what did we even do? And what are we doing it for? Kevin: I know for me, especially in my line of work, I go from one crisis to the next. And the next thing you know, you look up and it's like the end of the year or like the middle of the year. And I'm like, wait, how did that happen? And what I hear you saying is that reflection helps get the control back of the time that feels like it slips away so quickly. But more than that, it's an opportunity to learn and to grow from all of our experiences so that we're living life, not just trying to cope and survive and deal with all the problems that come our way. We can actually take some of the control back, some of the slow the time down. just a little bit through taking that time to reflect. Kathy: It lifts us out of reflection, will lift us out of survival into significance. Kevin: Yeah, that's really good. So how do we do that though? Like life is chaotic, there are hard things. What does that look like to take time to reflect? Kathy: Yeah, so we can do a daily reflection practice, the practice of the examin, some of you may be familiar with, and that is a daily practice of looking back on your day. You're asking the questions, basically what happened in my day today? And where was I present? Where was I not? Oh, what happened at that moment? It's such a good reflection practice to do that daily. And then you can also go on to do this, of course, weekly and monthly. And it is just about stopping, pausing, recognizing the gifts of these days. Kevin: Yeah, so in chaplaincy we have this philosophy "Action Reflection Action", meaning with everything that you do, especially when you're first learning like clinical pastoral education, that everything that you do, you take time to reflect, to learn from and to improve the practice. But it's certainly a philosophy that extends beyond a residency into a full-time chaplain role, that you're taking time to reflect, to make meaning, and to improve your practices going forward. And I think for me, reflection is simply looking in the mirror. And instead of just seeing yourself in that reflection, you get to see your soul. And so reflection can be something that we do looking backwards, because a mirror only reflects backwards, it doesn't reflect forwards. But when we look backwards, that's the way that we're able to make sense of where we've come from, so we have a better idea of where we want to go. Kathy: Excellent. So, to sum it all up, we have some celebration and reflection practices that we're all going to begin to utilize. We hope that this has given you some small steps toward having thanks -living this year, instead of just Thanksgiving. And speaking of reflection, we have our annual Review Your Year workshop coming up on December 7th. Everyone is invited to this. It is a time of celebration and reflection, where we get to look back on this year, all that it brought to us. We talk about our word that we had, and we're also setting an intention. So if you are interested in that, please sign up on our website at BeWellResourcesLA.com, and we'd love to have you. To close our time today, Kevin:, would you lead us in a Thanksgiving meditation? Kevin: Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. Meditation: We're going to start with me asking just a few questions that I'd like you to reflect on. If you want to write your answers down, that'd be great, but if not, you can just call them to mind as well. So the first question is, what are two attributes of God you appreciate most today? The next question is, what's one thing you're celebrating today? The next question, what's one thing you're reflecting on today? And finally, name three things you're most grateful for today. So this meditation is a fill in the blank blessing. As I read this blessing, reflect on these things that you're grateful for. And when I pause, fill in your own words to complete the blessing. Let's pray. God, thank you for being _________. Today, I will choose to celebrate __________. Because I see this as a gift from you. Today, I will take time to reflect on __________. Because I'd like to remember __________. I thank you for all the blessings in my life, but today, I'm most grateful for these three. The first is _________. The second is _________. And finally _________. And so I conclude by simply saying, "thank you."

Kev and Kelly do a second harvest of Graveyard Keeper Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:17: What Have We Been Up To 00:06:11: News 00:34:56: Graveyard Keeper 01:14:29: Outro Links Coral Island 1.0 Moonlight in Garland Early Access Sun Haven 1.3 Update Fabledom Fairytales & Community Update Moonstone Island Eerie Items DLC Lonesome Village Physical Edition Garden Story Translation Update Fantastic Haven Graveyard Keeper Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:32) Kevin: this is kelly ween this is kelly ween kelly ween kelly ween and in this show uh we talk about games that are filled with cottage gore yeah hi everyone welcome to the harvest season um with me today is kelly i’m kevin she’s actually gonna be here for well spoilers but then she’s gonna be on next week too she were on last week I bring it up because last year you were on for Halloween we did Cult of the Land. (0:00:47) Kelly: Hey. (0:00:57) Kelly: Oh, I forgot about that. (0:01:02) Kevin: And so, yeah, so, well, that’s exactly right. (0:01:03) Kelly: Is this just like my thing? (0:01:07) Kevin: Um, yeah, you’re Kelly our pumpkin queen. (0:01:10) Kevin: So here we are. (0:01:11) Kevin: Um, she’s all about this stuff. (0:01:14) Kevin: And so we are here today to talk about graveyard keeper, another, um, cottage gore game, um, technically this is a second harvest episode. (0:01:25) Kevin: Uh, Raschelle covered it way back. (0:01:28) Kevin: Like the first Halloween episode. (0:01:32) Kevin: And so I knew about it for years, but I didn’t get a chance to play it until recently. (0:01:37) Kevin: Um, and Kelly has played it significantly. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, yeah. (0:01:40) Kelly: I only got out of it though last year. I was very new to it, so… (0:01:44) Kevin: Well, still more than I have. (0:01:49) Kevin: I’ve only played, uh, just a handful, relatively speaking. (0:01:51) Kevin: Um, but yeah, that’s, uh, we will get to that soon enough. (0:01:58) Kevin: Um, but before that, as always. (0:02:02) Kevin: Show notes and links and the transcripts are all available on the website for people to see and look at and on. (0:02:09) Kevin: Ooh, and whatnot. (0:02:11) Kevin: Um, and, uh, before the graveyard keeper will do news as always. (0:02:17) Kevin: And more importantly, what have you been up to Kelly? (0:02:19) Kevin: What have you been playing, watching, doing, yada, yada. (0:02:21) Kelly: Um, playing? I’ve really been slacking. I’ve been playing solitaire in Pokemon Go, which is not… It is, but I just… I get stuck playing it, and like, it’s fun, but I’m also like, I could be playing something better. (0:02:37) Kevin: Yeah, I mean it’s like comfort food sometimes it just it’s simple and I get it Exactly sometimes you just need a mindless game Okay, okay madman okay, I have not watched it. I’m familiar with it. That’s the one with That’s the one like 50s (0:02:37) Kelly: Um… [laughs] (0:02:39) Kelly: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It’s like, thoughtless. Um… (0:02:50) Kelly: But I just… (0:02:51) Kelly: I rewatched Mad Men, so that I think is more exciting. (0:03:05) Kelly: yeah like 60s advertising, yeah. (0:03:05) Kevin: add agency right (0:03:07) Kevin: 60s okay all right how how mm-hmm how long is it like the whole thing oh wow that’s longer than expected well that’s cool yeah sure (0:03:07) Kelly: uh I was a big fan when it came out. (0:03:12) Kelly: uh it’s like seven seasons I think? yeah seven seasons. (0:03:18) Kelly: yeah when I first ran I jumped ship like I think after season five. (0:03:25) Kelly: uh I mean it’s not the worst last two seasons but they’re not as good. (0:03:32) Kelly: Good. (0:03:34) Kevin: Um, let’s see, uh, well, I’ve last week we covered paleo pines actually kept up with it a good bit after There was a patch that dropped It’s been a big dinosaur for a week for me. I watched Jurassic Park this week again - (0:03:35) Kelly: What about you? What have you been up to? (0:03:52) Kevin: Boy, that movie’s real good good other than that Yesterday I cried that Super Mario wonder it just came out yesterday (0:04:04) Kevin: the newest one for this switch and It’s a good one Um, I’ll plug the rainbow road radio the other show I do with our mutual friend Alex We did our first look at it on that show. We just recorded and that’ll be dropping soon It’s fantastic it’s There’s I’m only a little bit in like on the second world but like every (0:04:23) Kelly: What do you think of it? (0:04:34) Kevin: level feels like it is introducing something new and different and I mean classic Mario is good you know 2d it’s your standard 2d Mario and whatnot so the gameplay is good and it’s just filled with all sorts of fun surprises and delights I’m going to spoil people on probably the best part that I’ve experienced so far there’s this level it’s like the second or third level you can do. (0:05:04) Kevin: There’s a bunch of piranha plants popping out of the pipes and you run and jump past them and whatnot. (0:05:09) Kevin: And then there’s the Wonder Flower which changes the level in different ways or whatnot. (0:05:15) Kevin: So when you touch the Wonder Flower, it starts this musical production and all the piranha plants just start singing. (0:05:23) Kevin: And it’s incredible, you entice everyone to at least look it up. (0:05:29) Kelly: I actually, I saw it on TikTok this morning and I was like, hmm, okay. (0:05:30) Kevin: It’s just so much fun. (0:05:34) Kevin: It’s so, because it just, right? (0:05:37) Kelly: Very much unexpected. (0:05:38) Kelly: I thought it was like somebody made it at first, like, you know, somebody edited it. (0:05:41) Kevin: Yep, it’s so out of the blue. (0:05:42) Kelly: But no, it was real. (0:05:45) Kevin: Yeah, no, it’s good. (0:05:48) Kevin: It’s really funny and yeah, the game just brings smiles to me every level with all sorts of unexpected twists and turns like that. (0:05:56) Kevin: So yeah, Mario Wonder, two thumbs up for me for sure. (0:05:59) Kevin: Like I said, people can go to Rainbow World Radio to hear more in-depth thoughts. (0:06:04) Kevin: But, yeah, that’s mostly what I’ve been up to. (0:06:08) Kevin: And now, with that, let’s hop on over to the news. (0:06:15) Kevin: We have, as always, a handful of, mostly game updates. (0:06:19) Kevin: Yeah, there’s a lot of game updates for some reason right now. (0:06:24) Kevin: So we’re going to start off talking about Coral Island. (0:06:30) Kevin: Okay, the one, okay, this is a big one. (0:06:34) Kevin: For people who may not remember, Coral Island is your standard Stardew-esque, well, I say standard. (0:06:40) Kevin: It’s got all your fixings, your farming, and it’s on an island, hence the name, right? (0:06:46) Kevin: So it has the tropical aesthetic and whatnot. (0:06:51) Kevin: But the big news is the 1.0 version is launching on November 14th, which is exciting. (0:06:58) Kevin: They have a trailer, and it looks expansive. (0:07:05) Kevin: There’s a lot going on. You have your farm, you can go underwater, you can meet mermaids, you can do your romancing, (0:07:12) Kevin: you can do, I think there’s even a race in there somewhere. All that good stuff. (0:07:18) Kevin: It looks very polished and like a 1.0 game. You can also… (0:07:22) Kelly: Yeah, I was going to say, it definitely looks like there’s, it looks a lot different than like the first, you know, clips I saw of it. (0:07:30) Kevin: Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it’s definitely a game now, for a better way of putting it. (0:07:36) Kelly: Yeah. (0:07:37) Kevin: And you can also dress up as a panda or dinosaur, so you know, there’s a lot going on there. You also get your little animal crossing, you can redecorate your house wherever you want. (0:07:49) Kevin: Oh, you can even have a baby in this, that’s wild. Yeah, that is dropping on November 14th, (0:07:58) Kevin: just a couple of weeks and it will be dropping on Steam, Xbox Series X/S, and PS5 they’re hoping for a 2024 release for a Switch version. Do you think you’ll try Coral Island or look in its general (0:08:12) Kelly: I think I might. I think it definitely looks really cute. I think it depends on if I’m playing anything, you know, when it comes out. I’m trying so hard not to, like, backlog myself. (0:08:22) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, that’s the hard part right too many games Yeah, no, that’s that’s a good idea I definitely have bought back So I respect that I think you can romance a mermaid so, you know, I’m not that going free I wonder how that’s gonna work. How are they gonna move up the land or vice versa? (0:08:43) Kevin: It’s a two-story floor but the bottom floor is underwater [laugh] (0:08:44) Kelly: just uh living in a two separate homes kind of situation there you go (0:08:52) Kevin: I’m down for that, um, yeah, right now it’s only 25 bucks, oh that’s not bad for this, that’s, that looks like a lot of content for 25 bucks, so, um, get excited. (0:09:06) Kevin: Um, oh, oh yeah, okay, sure, yep, that makes sense, that’s fair. (0:09:07) Kelly: Oh, it does say it’s going to release, I think, at $30, though. (0:09:11) Kelly: There’s a note about the price adjustment. (0:09:14) Kelly: But the diving looks really cool. (0:09:16) Kelly: I played a lot of Dave the Diver over the summer, (0:09:19) Kelly: so I feel like I’m still looking for games where I can go exploring like that. (0:09:19) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s good. (0:09:23) Kevin: Yeah, it does look good for like the animation stuff. (0:09:29) Kevin: I’m also a big fan of underwater type games and it looks very expansive down there. (0:09:35) Kevin: So yeah, there’s a post on Steam page with all the updates and everything. You guys can check it out. (0:09:44) Kevin: If you do have early access, it looks like there will be a save reset. (0:09:53) Kevin: So there is that. But, either way, November 14th, I look forward to it. I might actually check it out now. It looks pretty… (0:10:00) Kevin: So, next up we have Moonlight and Garland. (0:10:06) Kevin: I don’t know if this is a game announced, but it’s… (0:10:09) Kevin: Yeah, I guess it is, because they’re announcing their early access October 24th, which will probably already be out by the time people are listening to this. (0:10:18) Kevin: This is… here, let me read their, uh… (0:10:22) Kevin: The elevator pitch, where is it? (0:10:24) Kevin: A cozy open-ended life sim about finding your feet in the big city, decorate your apartment, make new friends, grow too many houseplants, and love your city life. (0:10:33) Kevin: Um, so it… yeah, it’s… it’s city-based, right? So you’re in an apartment, you’re not running a whole farm, but you can grow plants, you can have pets, um, make relationships and whatnot. (0:10:46) Kevin: The art style is… (0:10:48) Kelly: That’s the most realistic farming sim. (0:10:52) Kevin: » [LAUGH] (0:10:54) Kevin: » No, you’re right. (0:10:59) Kevin: » Yeah, yeah, Kelly can. (0:11:00) Kevin: Well, no, you’re in the house now, you’re not in an apartment anymore. (0:11:03) Kelly: No, but definitely, you know, went through that also, like, how do I keep my plans alive in my apartment when there’s no sun? (0:11:04) Kevin: But yeah, you know the feeling. (0:11:12) Kevin: Man, gosh, you’re super right. (0:11:16) Kevin: Boy, there’s a person showing an apartment with a lot of bunnies in their apartment, that seems difficult. (0:11:23) Kevin: You’re gonna have that many bunnies in an apartment. (0:11:26) Kevin: The art style is, it’s 2D pixelated, but it’s not Stardew-esque. (0:11:31) Kevin: It’s a little more cutesy than that, and I don’t know how to best describe it. (0:11:35) Kevin: And all the NPCs are kind of bobbing their head at the same time to some unknown beat, it is cute looking. (0:11:43) Kevin: And it’s only the early access, so I’m sure it’ll grow considerably more. (0:11:51) Kevin: That is, you know. (0:11:52) Kevin: October 23rd? 24th? I’m seeing two different days. (0:11:58) Kelly: I definitely want to follow up on it because just looking at the coming soon photo, it’s like why is there an iguana on the sidewalk? (0:12:06) Kevin: Hahaha! (0:12:06) Kelly: Can I have an iguana? (0:12:07) Kevin: Wait, you havin’ a guana? (0:12:08) Kelly: And then there’s also the bear man. (0:12:10) Kevin: Wait, wait, wait, wait, let me see, which one are you talkin’ about? (0:12:10) Kelly: I’m on the steam page, the early access release. (0:12:14) Kevin: What? (0:12:15) Kevin: Okay, okay, let me see… (0:12:17) Kelly: So in the coming soon photo that says steam early access, October 24th, whatever, wishlist now. (0:12:27) Kevin: Okay, okay. Oh, I’m looking at the wrong page. I would explain it wouldn’t it? Yup. There it is. Okay Yeah, I was looking the wrong page. There is a bear man. Why is there a bear man? (0:12:28) Kelly: There’s a bear man in the iguana, like do I get a pet iguana, do I get pet pigeons? (0:12:37) Kevin: Okay, I Okay, I want to mine a department full of pet iguanas that that I can do they’re pretty low-key There are pigeons. So, you know, definitely, you know, they’re hitting Oh, are they gonna have the the trash bags out on the sidewalk? (0:12:55) Kevin: Are they gonna go all in on the city? (0:12:57) Kevin: I don’t know if garland is a city name. It’s a city in texas. I know that much. (0:13:11) Kelly: Yeah. (laughs) (0:13:28) Kevin: But yeah, coming soon, early access. (0:13:31) Kevin: Next up, the clip side of early access, we got DLC patches, whatever you want to call it, for Sunhaven. (0:13:39) Kevin: This is the magical-esque farm where you do magic, there’s monsters, dragons, etc. (0:13:51) Kevin: It is patch 1.3, which includes new buildings. (0:13:58) Kevin: There are several that don’t look human, one is an angel, just straight up an angel. (0:14:04) Kevin: One guy is blue, he’s a moon attendant, whatever that means. (0:14:11) Kevin: You have to, they will be unlockable at some point, but that’s fascinating, dating non-humans like that. (0:14:20) Kevin: Oh, they will have a couple of other romancibles coming later this year. (0:14:28) Kevin: They will also have new farm structures and buildings. (0:14:32) Kevin: Greenhouses, silos, chicken coops, butterfly gardens, I like that. You don’t see that in farming games. (0:14:38) Kelly: That’s very unique, yeah. (0:14:40) Kevin: That’s cute, I love a butterfly garden. (0:14:44) Kevin: Monocyphoners, glorite siphoners, I don’t know what they are, workshops, and ticket counterfeiters. (0:14:54) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but you’re counterfeiting. (0:14:57) Kevin: They’re up to crimes. I like that. (0:14:59) Kevin: I want to know why you can do crimes. (0:15:01) Kevin: Tickets for what? (0:15:03) Kevin: I don’t think they’re concert tickets. (0:15:05) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:15:07) Kevin: But yeah, there’s a whole bunch of other stuff. (0:15:10) Kelly: A lot of stuff. There’s like a ghost shed kit? I want a ghost shed. (0:15:11) Kevin: What does that mean? (0:15:18) Kevin: Do you keep ghosts in there? (0:15:19) Kelly: You grow them in there, maybe? (0:15:21) Kevin: I don’t… (0:15:23) Kevin: Oh wait, there are variations. (0:15:25) Kevin: variations because there’s pumpkin and mushroom. (0:15:27) Kevin: It looks like a ghost, oh I see it. (0:15:29) Kevin: Yeah, it has the eyes, the windows look like eyes and the glow, okay. (0:15:29) Kelly: Oh! (0:15:31) Kelly: That makes so much more sense because I was like oh mushroom shed. That’s just a shed where you grow mushrooms, you know That’s and then I just took the rest of them like that [laughs] (0:15:33) Kevin: Um, sh*t skins, yeah it does. (0:15:36) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, okay. (0:15:44) Kevin: Um, oh that’s the butterfly, wow those are big butterflies. (0:15:47) Kevin: Um, oh those are fascinating buildings. (0:15:49) Kevin: Um, let’s see, player birthdays. (0:15:53) Kevin: There is the birthday, birthday celebration. (0:15:57) Kevin: There is a huge pinata that you can hit, so I’m already down for this. (0:16:01) Kevin: Um, geez that’s like a full sized lion looking pinata, that’s great. (0:16:06) Kevin: Um, that’s uh, so all that’s included in the patch. (0:16:10) Kevin: Aside from that there will be DLC available. (0:16:13) Kevin: Um, all six different packs, trick or treat, spirit battle, rock and roll, cyber pop, monkey monkey, and dreamy ram. (0:16:22) Kevin: They’re all, they contain different items, packs, outfits, items, whatever. (0:16:27) Kevin: You guys can check the Steam page for details. (0:16:30) Kevin: Uh, for, yeah, there’s more details out there than we talked about, but, uh, yeah, that seems like a hefty patch. That seems like fun. (0:16:38) Kelly: Yeah, there’s a lot in this. This page goes on. (0:16:38) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it does. Um… (0:16:41) Kelly: And there’s even a coming soon, so… (0:16:43) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they’re talking about future. (0:16:47) Kevin: Um, wow, new season of weather. Wow. (0:16:50) Kevin: Gloomy, what’s the difference between rainy and gloomy rain? I don’t know. (0:16:55) Kelly: Um, I think there’s I could I could understand that one (0:16:55) Kevin: But there you go All right, yeah, I guess. Okay, uh See like out here in Georgia. It’s a little more like rain. Not gloomy rain. Gloomy rains like hurricane force rain That’s what I think Wait no, yeah, okay. I get it (0:17:10) Kelly: No, I think gloomy rain is like when it’s kind of cold and like the sky is just dark and grey all day and it’s like just kind of constant. Like you could have nice rain, like you could have sunny rain, you could have like… (0:17:24) Kevin: Yeah, I do enjoy sun showers. (0:17:25) Kelly: It doesn’t have to be gloomy. (0:17:26) Kelly: Just like a normal rain shower isn’t always gloomy. (0:17:27) Kevin: You’re right. (0:17:28) Kevin: Yeah, no, you’re right, okay, um Yeah, so there’s all the whole bunch of stuff you guys can check that out Is that sorry? Yeah, when’s the release? I didn’t it’s it’s Oct they posted it October 20th It is oh, yeah, it’s already out on Steam. Yeah, so Now time this recording which means by the times you guys are listening. It is definitely available. That is again Sun haven (0:17:58) Kevin: Huh? Oh man, I’m just looking at the picture like a big tree man monster. I might have to check this out I like tree monsters. I I haven’t played a magic game in a minute. Well, I mean, well, maybe our keeper gentle notwithstanding Um, but it’s high, you know fantasy magic II I’m down for that. I could use that Yeah, uh, okay speaking of well, I don’t know more updates (0:18:04) Kelly: right? like i’m kind of like- i’m intrigued. i’m definitely very (0:18:17) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:18:18) Kelly: I feel like this is pretty different, yeah. (0:18:28) Kevin: We have so this is The what I refer to as not a city builder but a village builder because it’s medieval villagey themed But you’re helping build the whole village and run everything it is currently in early access and they are dropping a update for it I’m excited for this game myself. I’m gonna wait for the 1.0, but I love the art style. It’s cutesy and goofy (0:18:59) Kevin: and they are dropping all sorts of things in this update including a An encounter with a misunderstood Cyclops who’s very cute. His eye is just a dot His name is Eric one eye you can there will be a witch’s hut a red hooded girl Who’s looking for her grandma’s house? That that’s a speech. I don’t trust that at all. Oh, no, I don’t like that Hemisary gnomes (0:19:26) Kevin: It was seriously rare! (0:19:28) Kevin: And then a fawn with a really big nose and mustache. Oh, I like this guy. (0:19:33) Kevin: There’s a… and a few more. (0:19:36) Kevin: Well, those are fun characters that they’re adding. I love the art style and it looks really fun on these mythical, magical, whatever you want to call them. (0:19:46) Kevin: Cyclops and fawns. Gnomes. They’re fun looking characters. (0:19:48) Kelly: No, yeah, they look they look so cute. It looks very adorable (0:19:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:19:51) Kevin: Yep. (0:19:53) Kevin: There are, oh gosh, 50 new world events and 30 new objectives. (0:19:58) Kevin: I don’t know what that means, but those are big numbers. (0:20:00) Kevin: Oh, there’s a magic bean. (0:20:03) Kevin: There’s monthly and yearly objectives. (0:20:06) Kevin: Hot weight. Positive and negative events. Oh, oh, they’re, they’re, they’re wild. Okay, I’m down for that. (0:20:15) Kevin: They have, let’s see, new buildings, a laborer guild. Oh, so you can hire better laborers. That’s fun. A bank. (0:20:24) Kevin: Oh, you can tax your villagers at different rates? (0:20:28) Kevin: Oh, that’s awesome. Grand theater? Oh, that’s a nice looking theater. (0:20:34) Kevin: Fisherman’s hut? Fish up stuff? All sorts of quality of life stuff? (0:20:40) Kevin: Well, there’s a lot of graphs in this game and things like that. I’m down for that. (0:20:45) Kevin: Yeah, that’s a lot of stuff coming. Like I said, I’m probably going to wait for 1.0 myself, but I’m glad that it’s coming along nicely. Yeah, that is again fabled. (0:20:57) Kelly: Is there any, is there any real estate or? (0:20:59) Kevin: Go. Oh, it is live. That update is already live as of this recording. (0:21:05) Kevin: So, yay. If anyone is playing the one point or the early access, first of all, (0:21:10) Kevin: somebody tell me if they are because I want to know about it. And it is out already. (0:21:15) Kevin: Um, yeah. All right. Good. Oh man. I’m just trying to fable them. It’s so goofy looking and the. (0:21:23) Kelly: Is there like an overall release date or no? (0:21:33) Kevin: uh not that i’m saying now um I have left here a quick glance um yeah so probably still a hot minute probably sometime in 2024 i’d hope but uh it’s not dead yet so i’ll take that let’s see next up we have uh moonstone island we have dlc for that this is which one’s this one okay all right we so we have dlc come (0:22:11) Kevin: Well, let me get to the details. Yeah, it’s the Halloween update right? That’s the key thing here. Um, (0:22:16) Kelly: I think so, ‘cause it’s for Halloween. (0:22:17) Kevin: We’ve got just a whole bunch of Spooky decors per their website gravestones skeletons a big old pumpkin house um Web’s five types of cobwebs. Oh Oh a rug. That’s just the tongue. That’s clever. I like that. Um, (0:22:38) Kevin: uh So yeah, there. (0:22:41) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:43) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:45) Kelly: I’m sorry, it’s actually not out yet. (0:22:45) Kevin: Okay. (0:22:47) Kelly: It’s not out, which I’m kinda… (0:22:47) Kevin: Um, there are n- some- the- so some of this stuff is DLC, which I’m assuming means purchasable separately, but there will be stuff included for free in the updates on the skeletons and things like that. (0:22:58) Kevin: Um, spirits are free- I don’t know what spirits are in the context of this game, but um, but they’re coming some out. (0:23:05) Kevin: Um, oh wow, I didn’t check- it’s got some good reviews. (0:23:09) Kevin: Um, I’ll have to check that out. (0:23:11) Kevin: Oh wow, what? Oh gosh, I forgot about- I’m remembering the game. (0:23:15) Kevin: There’s- you can fight like robots with a card battling system. (0:23:19) Kevin: They are… (0:23:21) Kevin: Yeah, oh man, oh gosh. (0:23:23) Kelly: These are really cute looking things, these creatures. (0:23:26) Kelly: I, yeah, like, I really like the style of it, yeah. (0:23:26) Kevin: This whole episode’s just me getting excited about games I forgot to get excited about. (0:23:31) Kevin: Um, as if I didn’t have enough already. (0:23:33) Kevin: There are really cute characters- there’s a fishbowl with legs. (0:23:36) Kevin: Um, I like that. (0:23:39) Kevin: that. And then at the end they just. (0:23:41) Kevin: Have a picture of a cat with like a sun hood. I don’t know but um, it’s very cute cat. (0:23:47) Kevin: That is Moonstone Island. That is already out, I believe. Why do we have a date for that? (0:23:52) Kelly: It is a very cute cat. (0:23:54) Kelly: The game is out, it says “NA” for them. (0:23:56) Kevin: Okay, thank you. But it says, while says it’s October 27th. I (0:24:06) Kevin: Couldn’t find that myself. Oh wait. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, October 27th. It’s only $4. (0:24:11) Kevin: Okay, that’s actually not bad at all and 10% off the first week. So there’s 46. (0:24:18) Kevin: Yeah, okay. Oh, it’s a new spirits must be a little monster buddies. That’s what it means. I’m excited. One looks like an apple with a worm through it. They’re just showing silhouettes. I’m just guessing. (0:24:23) Kelly: There you go. (0:24:29) Kevin: And yeah, I don’t know all that. Oh, I might check this out now. It’s a very cute game. (0:24:34) Kevin: Moonstone Island. Um Let’s see Next up we have oh, this isn’t an interesting (0:24:41) Kevin: one because boy, I never thought we’d see this this is Lonesome Village game that I notoriously advocate because the developers are from Mexico. It’s got the cute coyote as you saw puzzles in a tower. They’re coming out the fiscal edition. Pre-orders are live. You can check the show notes for the link. It is not from limited run games actually. A game a site called premium edition games. (0:25:11) Kevin: physical edition which includes all sorts of goodies including oh wow a full-color manual oh that’s exciting Wow a dog tag yeah they do um oh man a manual that’s exciting um yeah it’s great um yeah I I cover this game with Johnny, it was last year or year before, I don’t remember. (0:25:22) Kelly: Dude, the indie games always put so much into like what you get from… (0:25:32) Kelly: I love a manual. (0:25:33) Kelly: A full color manual too, that’s so nice. (0:25:41) Kevin: It’s a fun little game with lots of puzzles, and just very very cute little animal-closing-esque villagers. (0:25:47) Kelly: It looks really cute. The art style kind of reminds me of like Cult of the Lamb, but without the like paper feel. (0:25:47) Kevin: It’s actually funny because in the “story” of the game, so it’s called Lonesome Village because there’s a village and everyone’s kind of been turned to stone or disappeared. (0:26:03) Kevin: And the villains, they’re the people who did it very much look like Cult of the Lamb. (0:26:06) Kelly: Okay. (0:26:07) Kelly: Oh! Oh! It’s a cult! It’s a cult! What is happening here? (0:26:09) Kevin: Yeah. (0:26:12) Kevin: It came out around the time Cult of the Loom. (0:26:14) Kelly: I’m watching the trailer! Oh my god! (0:26:15) Kevin: It looks a lot like Cult of the Loom. (0:26:18) Kevin: The cult from Cult of the Loom. (0:26:20) Kevin: I think we made the joke in the episode. (0:26:22) Kevin: It came out around the same time too. (0:26:25) Kevin: Yep, yep, exactly. Yep. (0:26:26) Kelly: That’s so funny, ‘cause I was thinking it kinda like reminds me of the way they do the animals, like the style of the animals. (0:26:32) Kelly: But now that I’m watching this trailer, it’s like literally… (0:26:32) Kevin: It’s cult, it’s a lot like Cult of the Loom, Cult. (0:26:36) Kelly: That’s so funny. Oh, I gotta play this. (0:26:41) Kevin: Yeah, I have to check it out again. I still have it. (0:26:45) Kevin: It’s been a while. I’m sure they patched it up and done some stuff. (0:26:48) Kevin: ‘Cause I had a few rough edges back then, but I’m curious. (0:26:51) Kevin: I might do another look at it at some point. (0:26:54) Kevin: Because, yeah, props to–but, again, Mexican dev team, so I gotta shout them out. (0:26:59) Kevin: Ogre Pixel, that’s the name. (0:27:02) Kevin: But, yeah, that is a cute little logo of an Ogre–Pixillator Ogre. (0:27:07) Kevin: And again, this is the physical edition release. (0:27:11) Kevin: $40 for the premium edition, which seems to be their only version but includes all sorts of goodies. Um, I When do pre-orders end? I don’t know if I see that but the pre-orders are available now So you can check out the site and get it. Um Alright next up we have Not Garden Galaxy is perfect. We’re heading on the notes. That’s a different game that I was going to cover almost (0:27:42) Kevin: Garden story. That’s the one with the playable grape. That looks a lot like Stardew Valley a lot like It has It’s very cute though the grape that’s playable It is an update that has 11 new languages. Wow, that is a lot of languages I don’t know which ones they are. I just see the It’s out on Steam and switch already this update (0:28:09) Kevin: Very cool. Yeah, I actually don’t know what language is. I don’t know. (0:28:11) Kevin: Let’s see the details. But wow, that’s a big number. Good for them. (0:28:16) Kevin: Always props for making it more available for more people and whatnot. (0:28:19) Kevin: Yep. It is. The grape is very cute. (0:28:20) Kelly: Yeah, that’s always awesome. It really does look like stardew though. It’s cute though (0:28:25) Kevin: Next up, a new game announcement for as far as I can tell. (0:28:31) Kevin: This is called Fantastic Haven, which actually I find really intriguing. (0:28:36) Kevin: It’s the prime… (0:28:40) Kevin: Let me read the– (0:28:41) Kevin: The elevator pitch. (0:28:43) Kevin: So, this is a… (0:28:57) Kevin: Yeah, a Zook cheaper-esque type game, but they’re all magical creatures. (0:29:03) Kevin: Um, so you’re building big pens that look like circular homes more? (0:29:09) Kevin: Um, you alter the land and… (0:29:11) Kevin: It’s full 3D graphics, um, the… I think the actual designs of the creatures are actually quite nice, um… (0:29:18) Kevin: I like animals and critters and… (0:29:21) Kevin: …cheaping them and whatnot, so I’m already pretty interested, um, especially with the spin of… (0:29:26) Kevin: …like, they’re all magical creatures, I don’t see any other animals in here, I see like a griffin, uh… (0:29:31) Kelly: No, I’ve only seen, like, yeah, griffins and some weird frog with, like, horns and stuff. (0:29:31) Kevin: Yup, it’s a bullfrog, you get it? (0:29:36) Kelly: Ah, yes, yes, yes. (0:29:41) Kevin: The color shows a lot more, uh, it looks like you’re even busting some out of, like, cages and, like, carny… (0:29:46) Kevin: …you know, those carnival cages with the wheels, the cars, um… (0:29:51) Kevin: So that’s… that looks very fun, yeah, like I said, a lot of menus, probably, um… (0:29:57) Kevin: …very zookeeper tycoon-esque, um, but with the heavy, uh, magical fantasy paint over it, um… (0:30:06) Kevin: So that is right now the only release date planned is for Q2 of 2024 so it’ll probably be a minute but look forward to it I certainly am those are some fun designs yeah it’s it’s it’s charming enough for me I’m definitely interested um and then lastly okay this one I want to talk about in depth a little more because this one’s affecting me personally uh well actually there’s two me and my neck was night market once again got another patch that one. (0:30:41) Kevin: one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:48) Kevin: I’m not gonna go into the details because I don’t remember them but the other one I want to talk about because we just talked about last week is paleo pines. (0:30:53) Kevin: We just got yup okay so uh one point two point one oh whatever the it’s out on switch so you know it’s out on the steam version or whatever um so uh there’s a lot of quality of life stuff you can do with it. (0:30:54) Kelly: Which I still have to play, but I have not yet. (0:31:11) Kevin: We can change how quickly time passes in the game um oh gosh so one of the after I recorded last week with Spencer and we talked and played I was getting a lot of crashes. (0:31:23) Kevin: They had released a patch previously to fix some of that they said it was like a memory issue um but they were still experiencing it. (0:31:26) Kelly: Mmm. Okay. (0:31:31) Kevin: I felt like the more farther I got in the game the more I was crashed getting crashes uh they addressed some of that. (0:31:37) Kevin: that the game is still not free of crashes because (0:31:41) Kevin: we’ve been probably within an hour after downloading the update the game crashed on me again But it is better in general So they’re definitely aware and working on it at probably top of their list There is Also, there’s a whole list and you can check the show notes for them. I’m trying to look at which ones that are Stand out to me. Oh, there’s a cooking pot (0:31:46) Kelly: Oh, God. (0:32:07) Kevin: But it was weird because it was at some other guy’s house you have to go all the way to this other (0:32:12) Kevin: cook stuff but now you can buy one for your own ranch so that’s great oh here’s a fun one um so you can ride your dinosaurs because of course you can but the thing was whenever you got off of them they would just run away from you at max speed it was whole it was wild you could like try to stop them but um clearly not intended they have addressed that and and this definitely was an update needed and and it works um they will no longer run away from you when you get off of them (0:32:42) Kevin: um yes well luckily I think it was only in the ranch like your home base when it happened they wouldn’t leave you when you’re out in the wild oh my god that would be the worst yes but it’s still a pain because your character is a lot slower than the dinosaur so yeah yeah it’s just a pain having to go across the ranch to find them I mean it’s a pretty big ranch too um (0:32:44) Kelly: feeling it’s like okay nice I can I can get to the place I’m going to but once you’re there you’re stuck there now (0:32:56) Kelly: Oh, okay, okay, I was picturing like you, yeah, like you in the middle of like some field or something. (0:33:12) Kevin: uh there’s all sorts oh horse lock so there was a uh resource called forestwood that was needed for a lot of things it was pretty rare they increased the respawn on that that’s great um they did some ui improvements which were nice uh um lots of other things some oh there was a storage glitch spencer talked about think they fixed that um yeah just sort lots of little things (0:33:42) Kevin: because there were lots of little things that needed fixing um like I said still not 100 percent yeah yeah there is um where is it do they not have it um so there there is I read there is one glitch that they haven’t addressed yet um they know it’s an issue but for some reason at some point and it’s happened to me your game will reset to the first day of the game because there’s you know calendar like most farm. (0:34:12) Kevin: games and whatnot like you’ll keep all your stuff but somehow the calendar will just have reset to the very first game or very first day of the year which is wild um luckily I was able to get around that if you encounter it you can just reload an old save and it’s fine but um that was the wild glitch to see um but yeah that was I’m glad that came out because that addressed a lot of the little nitpicks Spencer and I had with the game and I’m sure (0:34:42) Kevin: they’re still working hard on that so good for you paleopines that update again is out already for switch and probably the other versions whatever versions it’s on all right so that was uh yeah the hearty helping of news and things but that’s now we’re doing that let’s talk about grave graveyard keeper yeah what’s what’s the tagline the most inaccurate medieval simulator isn’t that (0:35:09) Kelly: Something like that. I know inaccurate is involved of [laugh] (0:35:14) Kevin: Hold on let me look at it. Um the most inaccurate cemetery simulation game. Okay. Yeah, I think that’s what it is Okay Well Yeah, so again, um It and this game’s been up for years at this point. Um, I’ll covered it years ago Yeah. Yeah, there you go. That’s cute (0:35:24) Kelly: Oh, the most inaccurate medieval, yeah, cemetery sim of the year. (0:35:36) Kelly: Uh, they had their five year anniversary actually in August. (0:35:42) Kevin: There’s a bunch of DLC I bought the (0:35:44) Kevin: version with all the DLC I don’t know what the base game hazard does not have. (0:35:48) Kevin: I’ve only played it for an afternoon or two. I don’t think I’ve reached any of the DLC portions yet probably. (0:35:49) Kelly: Oh, did you? Okay. (0:35:57) Kevin: They’re all parody names there’s a stranger sins there’s breaking something (0:35:57) Kelly: Um, I’m trying to remember. I know the DLC… (0:35:59) Kelly: Yes, because there’s better save soul. (0:36:04) Kelly: Um, I did look into getting them, but I didn’t- I didn’t, because I think it was like- (0:36:11) Kelly: I feel like there’s- there’s so much going on in this game already. (0:36:14) Kevin: Even if it is, there’s a lot going on. (0:36:14) Kelly: Uh, that I was very happy to not have the added, um, things that like go along with the better save soul one. I heard that gets a lot of pretty tedious. (0:36:24) Kevin: Yeah, heh heh heh. (0:36:25) Kevin: Better save solo, that’s good. (0:36:29) Kevin: I don’t think that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:31) Kevin: That’s it? I don’t know if that one’s out on Switch. (0:36:32) Kelly: Oh, are you playing on Switch? I am not gonna lie. I have not. (0:36:36) Kelly: I’ve been so bad at playing my Switch this year. (0:36:44) Kevin: But, I mean, that’s fine, like, I know that the Switch port gets black for a good reason. (0:36:55) Kevin: There’s a Switch tax for sure, so I don’t blame you. (0:36:57) Kevin: But hey, at least we can compare notes on that. (0:37:00) Kevin: If you played on Steam, I would guess? (0:37:10) Kevin: Um, but okay, so let’s okay, let’s the elevator pitch Okay, first of all, I didn’t expect that this game’s an isekai That I didn’t expect at all so for people unfamiliar with isekai that is a genre of anime primarily where a character wakes up in a simulated often fantasy type world (0:37:38) Kevin: Sword Art Online and just… (0:37:40) Kevin: …other ones. It’s a whole trope now. (0:37:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:37:43) Kelly: I was gonna say it breaks the, you know, inherited your grandpa’s farm trope though. (0:37:44) Kevin: … (0:37:46) Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. (0:37:48) Kevin: You’re just a guy who gets hit by a car cause he’s looking at his phone. (0:37:52) Kevin: Don’t look at your phone when crossing the streets. (0:37:54) Kevin: It’s dark in the rain, people. (0:37:56) Kevin: It’s not recommended. (0:37:58) Kevin: And he wakes… (0:37:59) Kelly: Poor dude’s just trying to give back to his girlfriend or whatever. (0:38:00) Kevin: …yeah, his love, as he says, and… (0:38:03) Kevin: …he wakes up in a graveyard area and… (0:38:08) Kevin: There’s a talking skull that talks to you. (0:38:10) Kevin: And he says, “Hey, welcome. You’re the graveyard keeper, I guess.” (0:38:13) Kevin: Um, more or less, and sure enough, you’re put in charge of this graveyard in this little medieval village area. (0:38:23) Kevin: And you’re trying to figure out how to get back home while managing the graveyard and all the stuff people are asking you. (0:38:32) Kevin: Because, of course, people are going to ask you to do everything around here. (0:38:35) Kevin: Uh… (0:38:36) Kelly: I mean, what would a game be without everybody asking you to do all these things? (0:38:40) Kevin: Right, right. (0:38:42) Kevin: Um, so, okay, hell, you beat the game, correct? What are your overall impressions? (0:38:50) Kelly: I really liked the game. I thought it was a lot of fun. I think there’s a lot of stuff to do, (0:38:57) Kelly: like it can get a bit overwhelming, but I think, you know, it definitely involves, you know, (0:38:59) Kevin: Boy does it. (0:39:01) Kevin: Oh. Yep. (0:39:04) Kelly: looking things up online. But I will say there is an issue with how intuitive it is. (0:39:08) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:10) Kevin: Yep. (0:39:12) Kelly: I think I could have been further along in my gameplay if I understood some of the (0:39:20) Kelly: panics. A lot better. And I will say on that note, it was not always easy to find the answers on the internet. So that made it even worse. And sometimes if you did find an answer, (0:39:21) Kevin: Yep. Okay, so yeah, so. Mm-hmm. (0:39:31) Kevin: Oh yeah, the double whammy, oh yeah. (0:39:35) Kevin: Yup, it’s wild. (0:39:38) Kelly: it was from like 2018, so something got patched or didn’t work like that anymore. (0:39:46) Kelly: So, that was my biggest issue. (0:39:48) Kelly: Did it stop me from putting in, you know, (0:39:50) Kelly: 90 hours, I think, or whatever into the game? (0:39:55) Kelly: No, but there were definitely moments where I was frustrated. (0:39:59) Kelly: Or, like, again, just like, I was playing the game, I was enjoying myself, (0:40:03) Kelly: but I could have been further along than what I was. (0:40:07) Kevin: Yeah, um, okay. Mm-hmm Okay, yeah for sure they’re just Yeah, absolutely. Um, so for comparison I got the game Thursday I think today’s like Saturday. So two days ago So I’ve only played for and Mario wonder so I didn’t play as much yesterday So I played the game for an afternoon and then some um, I like the game a lot. Um, (0:40:07) Kelly: And not even in, like, a micromanagy, like, you know, whatever kind of way. (0:40:13) Kelly: Like, in, like, a… (0:40:15) Kelly: It would have made more sense. (0:40:26) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:40:37) Kevin: I think it is Almost minecrafty and how open it is and crafting and everything But I fully agree like that’s my biggest criticism there’s a lot that is not intuitive Or explained well Yep, yep, yep, I’m sure (0:40:50) Kelly: you haven’t even gotten or opened a lot of the, you know, different aspects of the game yet at this point, I’m sure, because it really expands. It expands a lot. There is a lot to do. There is so (0:41:03) Kevin: But I can imagine… I mean I see the skill tree. (0:41:07) Kevin: So… I can… I can… she’s… I can… (0:41:12) Kevin: So there’s a skill tree in this game, right? You have to get points to unlock your skills. (0:41:18) Kevin: And you can see how far it goes. And yes, I can see there’s a lot to unlock and do and whatnot. (0:41:24) Kevin: But… I think the skill tree is probably where I can direct my first criticism. (0:41:32) Kevin: Because there’s three types of points, whatever you want to call them. (0:41:37) Kevin: Red, green, and blue, and you need different amounts of each for unlocking each new skill, which lets you craft new things or do new things, whatnot. (0:41:46) Kevin: Um, the red and green work hard to get, but the blue, the blue is killing me because I hit a point where I had like one blue point overall and couldn’t figure out how to get more. (0:41:56) Kelly: You run out of them. (0:41:58) Kevin: Yeah. (0:41:59) Kelly: There’s a certain point where the game just stops you from getting more for a bit. (0:42:02) Kevin: Really? Wow. (0:42:04) Kelly: Not like stops you. (0:42:06) Kelly: There’s definitely a roadblock, I would say. (0:42:11) Kevin: - Yeah, okay. (0:42:14) Kelly: I struggled with that for so long. (0:42:17) Kelly: And then, of course, at a certain point, it’s like, oh. (0:42:20) Kelly: Now, actually, you’re out of red. (0:42:23) Kelly: Or now you’re out of green or whatever. (0:42:25) Kelly: And it’s like, oh, something that I– (0:42:26) Kelly: so I think one of them is done from manual labor, red, I think. (0:42:27) Kevin: yep yep your manufacturing and things yeah red okay oh you don’t get read from them (0:42:34) Kelly: Yeah, so at a certain point, you get helper zombies that you can assign to do things. (0:42:42) Kelly: So you’re no longer getting the red from those things that you would be getting red from. (0:42:47) Kelly: So it definitely makes you have to stop and think and watch everything. (0:42:56) Kevin: Yup, absolutely, um, it’s a very resource-manage-y heavy game and that includes your skill points or whatever you want to call them. (0:43:07) Kevin: That’s fascinating. (0:43:09) Kevin: Like I can see the blue are going to be very scarce. (0:43:11) Kelly: But I think it’s interesting because it does… (0:43:13) Kelly: Sorry, I was gonna say it just it does impact, I feel like, (0:43:18) Kelly: what you’re trying to do in that day. Because if you’re trying to get blue points… (0:43:19) Kevin: Right. Yeah, exactly. (0:43:22) Kevin: The nice thing, one of the nicest things about the game, (0:43:26) Kevin: there’s no real pressure. (0:43:28) Kevin: There’s no seasons or years or whatever. (0:43:31) Kevin: There’s a week. (0:43:32) Kevin: So like in six, seven, I don’t remember how long, how many days, (0:43:36) Kevin: but that’s the worst that you have to wait. (0:43:37) Kelly: It’s seven days Which and I liked I like I really like the fact that there was no pressure on the seasons or When you finished the game even or anything like that. I also liked the Each day is a different person You have to make sure that you’re getting the things you need to have done before that day so you can go and deal with that person (0:43:38) Kevin: Yep. Which go by quickly. (0:43:42) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:43:57) Kevin: Yep. (0:44:03) Kevin: Yep, he just gotta wait until… (0:44:03) Kelly: Because there’s definitely some weeks where if you miss that person you’re screwed (0:44:07) Kelly: Yup. And there is something later on in the game, you know, when things have slowed down in certain areas and you’re just like waiting for that one day where you can fast forward. (0:44:10) Kevin: Until that point. (0:44:21) Kelly: Yes, but I do actually want to say on that point, I think this is very interesting because there is no pause button. There’s no space yet. (0:44:21) Kevin: Yeah, sure that makes sense. Yeah, you can fast-forward at any point you should go to sleep and (0:44:32) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, even if you’re in your menus, time goes on. (0:44:37) Kelly: Yeah, you have to literally like go to the exit screen or whatever. Like the main menu page. (0:44:41) Kevin: Yeah Yep Yep, so if you’re looking through your notes here You know hemming and hawing at a menu thinking about where you want to spend your points that happened to me just just today When I was playing I cuz I finally got some blue points today. And so I was just like agonizing over I wanted where I wanted to spend them and before when I got out of the menu Oh, it’s evening already. Cool. The whole day’s [laughter] (0:44:43) Kelly: There’s a certain page that stops time, but the rest of them don’t. (0:44:48) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:09) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:11) Kelly: Yep. (0:45:12) Kevin: But they’re the kind of I mean, I don’t know if it was their intent or not But the way to combat that it’s very easy to reroll your did your save like you own there’s no autosave It just saves when you go when you wake up So most of the time you can say you’re pretty much have a safe at the start of the date or start of the day, excuse me, and You can just reload to that and have a plan or save yourself (0:45:23) Kelly: Oh, yes. (0:45:25) Kelly: Yes. (0:45:29) Kelly: I would just quit the game. (0:45:32) Kelly: Mm-hmm. (0:45:40) Kelly: Oh yeah, no, there was many times where I would either just, you would see like the NPC walking away from their post, and I would have to go and reset the game and then do the day over and make sure I got there early enough. (0:45:47) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:50) Kevin: Yep. (0:45:52) Kevin: Oh my gosh. (0:45:54) Kevin: That happened to me twice already when I go down and Snake is running away and like, “No, I need to talk to you, Snake.” (0:46:02) Kelly: oh god he’s so annoying he’s so annoying for the skill points though I think it’s like kind of fun like there’s some weird ones you can choose from uh-huh (0:46:05) Kevin: He is. (0:46:08) Kevin: He is. (0:46:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:46:13) Kevin: Overall, I’m a big fan of the Skilled Trees, umm… (0:46:17) Kevin: Because you can very much pick and choose if you want to focus on certain areas and whatnot. (0:46:23) Kevin: Umm, obviously like… (0:46:25) Kevin: To get green points, that’s the farming stuff, so you do want to invest in some of that stuff. (0:46:30) Kevin: Umm, but like, early on you can really get through a lot of the wood and metalworking stuff. (0:46:37) Kevin: Umm, and again, with almost no pressure on when to do it, umm, it’s… (0:46:42) Kevin: It’s very open and you’re very free to pick and choose as you want. (0:46:46) Kevin: You know, (0:46:47) Kevin: the limitations of how many skill points you actually have notwithstanding. (0:46:52) Kevin: I think it is a clever system. (0:46:54) Kevin: And because you get to see what’s coming ahead, that helps you plan that too. (0:47:00) Kevin: I really like that. (0:47:01) Kelly: Yes, definitely. (0:47:01) Kevin: Um… (0:47:02) Kelly: There was definitely some areas in the skill tree though where I did not understand what, (0:47:09) Kelly: like if you unlocked something, (0:47:12) Kelly: I didn’t understand how to access it afterwards, (0:47:15) Kelly: which then led to me diving down a rabbit hole, (0:47:18) Kelly: trying to figure it out. (0:47:18) Kevin: Yeah, sometimes that’s a little unclear most of the time When you look at the skill tree thing it says okay, you can craft at this bench or that bench or whatever But some are not very clear. Yeah Some aren’t super clear. Yeah But I do agree (0:47:27) Kelly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it definitely is pretty good. (0:47:30) Kelly: It’s pretty good. (0:47:34) Kelly: Can we talk about the main premise of the game, which I think is the most weird and fun part is, you know, collecting your corpses? (0:47:41) Kevin: Yeah, the it’s definitely yeah the differentiator the the the graveyard itself. Yeah, let’s talk about that (0:47:43) Kelly: Because you are, you are quite literally the graveyard keeper. So you get a (0:47:54) Kelly: Annoyed little donkey that delivers corpses to you. (0:47:56) Kevin: I’m red donkey from a leftist stable [laughter] (0:47:57) Kelly: And oh my god, there was so many times where I would hear that bell and just be so far away from home. (0:48:06) Kelly: And just go running because it’s like the second you hear that bell that corpse starts, you know, deteriorating. (0:48:12) Kevin: Yep Yeah, that’s that’s an interesting aspect that the forps is deteriorate and it affects a lot of things And yeah, they’re kind of deliver just at random times. It feels like I didn’t detect any pattern Umm… (0:48:22) Kelly: Yeah. (0:48:23) Kelly: Yes. (0:48:27) Kelly: No, they can definitely be whenever. (0:48:31) Kelly: And they can pile up too. (0:48:34) Kevin: Oh my gosh, I don’t think I’ve had that happen yet, but I could see that happening. (0:48:35) Kelly: Yeah, no, they can definitely pile up. (0:48:43) Kelly: I mean, this game goes in depth. (0:48:48) Kelly: I have freezers for bodies. (0:48:53) Kelly: So, you know, it’s like you are literally treating it like a morgue, like… (0:48:57) Kelly: But I think one of the most fun parts is removing the organs, (0:49:03) Kelly: but also the most hard to understand initially. (0:49:06) Kevin: Right, so yeah, let’s talk about that because as very early on you’re introduced that you have options to do the corpse One you can bury them in your graveyard. It has a prettiness rating you how you decorate it Well, you bury them and whatnot You can even just throw it in the river or cremate them or You can take them into your morgan Do a little bisection, you know see what you can poke around and find in there pull out a skull some blood What? (0:49:36) Kevin: A bit of flesh. (0:49:38) Kevin: It’s fascinating that they gave you this option. (0:49:43) Kevin: There’s… (0:49:44) Kevin: I haven’t gotten too in-depth with the body parts. (0:49:47) Kelly: So, I’ll explain it. It’s a lot. (0:49:51) Kelly: Basically, your corpse, so when you bury a corpse, you want it to be as high rated as possible because it impacts your cemeteries overall like beauty rating, (0:50:05) Kelly: which is a whole different aspect. (0:50:07) Kelly: And that’s a big part of the game because it kind of roadblocks you if you don’t keep up with it. (0:50:11) Kelly: But so you want to make sure you’re removing. (0:50:14) Kelly: If you remove certain organs, it makes your corpses… (0:50:17) Kelly: …that’s how you can remove them. (0:50:19) Kelly: If you remove other organs, it decreases it, and they don’t really tell you at first. (0:50:23) Kelly: You have to unlock skills on the skill tree… (0:50:25) Kelly: …that tell you. (0:50:25) Kevin: Yeah, I mean they tell you like there’s bad organs, but you don’t you can’t tell which ones until you go get that later (0:50:29) Kelly: Yes. Yes. (0:50:34) Kelly: And so you can remove organs, and you can also try to put the organ back. (0:50:38) K

Kev and Spencer talk about Paleo Pines Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:21: What Have We Been Up To 00:14:37: News 00:37:08: Paleo Pines 01:45:09: Outro Links Garden Buddies Release Garden Buddies Release Trailer Ikonei Island Friends Pass Farming Simulator 22 Carrots Preview Garden Galaxy Autumn Update Mineko’s Night Market Patches Paleo Pines Patches Animal Crossing Lego Paleo Pines Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:31) Kevin: Welcome farmers to the harvest season! (0:00:48) Spencer: Spared no expense. (0:00:49) Kevin: Hello. See what I wanted… I would have preferred the kazoo version. Have you heard that one? The kazoo version of Jurassic Park? Oh, I’ll have to send you a (0:00:50) Spencer: I have not heard that version. (0:01:00) Spencer: Aha. (0:01:01) Kevin: link. It’s an amazing one. I’ll do that right now. But in the meanwhile, hello listeners, farmers. I’m your host, Kevin, and with me today is Spencer! (0:01:14) Spencer: Yes, they thought they could get rid of me after the last episode I was on, but I’m back, (0:01:21) Spencer: so deal with it. (0:01:22) Kevin: And why? Because dinosaurs, of course, um, we are here to talk about, uh, (0:01:32) Kevin: Heliopines and Spencer, our resident dinosaur lover, alongside me. (0:01:40) Kevin: Um, I’m also a big fan. Um, we’re, uh, we were both very excited for this one. (0:01:46) Spencer: Yeah, I remember seeing it and I was like, “Oh man, I gotta wedge my way, force my way in with Al this time again.” (0:01:50) Kevin: Yeah. (0:01:53) Kevin: Yup, yup. (0:01:55) Kevin: But before that, um, you know–oh, see, I sent you the kazoo cover of Jurassic Park. (0:02:03) Kevin: Um, but before we get into paleopines, as usual, we’re gonna cover some news and other stuff. (0:02:11) Kevin: As usual, you can find the show notes and the transcript on the website, as always. (0:02:20) Kevin: Alright, but what we- (0:02:23) Spencer: Ah, games I’ve been playing. Well, I was playing Tears of the Kingdom for a while, and then, honestly, I’ve been playing a couple mobile games, so I started playing Monster Hunter now. (0:02:35) Spencer: Are you playing that? (0:02:36) Kevin: Oh, I am not okay first off for have you played Monster Hunter not mobile version Okay Uh-huh, right Okay Okay, but you hunted some things you have familiarity, okay, okay (0:02:37) Spencer: Oh, yeah. (0:02:45) Spencer: So I have Rise, and I also have Worlds, I think it is, for PS4. (0:02:51) Spencer: I just barely scratched the surface of both of them. (0:02:55) Spencer: I think it got a little bit farther in Rise than I did in Worlds. (0:02:59) Spencer: Oh yeah, I definitely hunted some things. (0:03:05) Spencer: See, the issue with me in those kind of games is like… (0:03:06) Kevin: Uh huh. (0:03:07) Spencer: The feedback loop for that kind of stuff is actually really… (0:03:12) Spencer: I like really enjoy it, but I get stuck on like (0:03:15) Spencer: the first level, because I’m like, “Oh cool, I hunted this monster. Let me like, hunt it again. Let me hunt it again.” (0:03:21) Kevin: Uh-huh, right. (0:03:21) Spencer: I just keep on hunting the same thing over and over again, and I never end up proceeding to the next level or the next area or wherever. (0:03:23) Kevin: I mean, that’s fine. You’ve got to do that at app points. (0:03:29) Spencer: Yeah, that’s true. So I am familiar with the series a little bit, but yeah, it’s been playing a lot of now. (0:03:41) Spencer: Well, I was playing a lot of now. (0:03:42) Kevin: Oh, okay, so tell me about now, because I’m fascinated how this works, but this is by Niantic, the Pokemon Go people. (0:03:43) Spencer: kind of… (0:03:49) Spencer: Yeah, so… (0:03:53) Spencer: So basically, like, while you’re walking around, you know, there’ll just be like, monsters kind of out where you are. (0:04:00) Spencer: Um, god, I think someone pointed out… (0:04:02) Spencer: It’s almost like the movie, in that it’s our world, but the monsters have now kind of like, invaded our world. (0:04:10) Spencer: Um, so you’re just walking around, there’ll be like, lesser monsters, you know, (0:04:15) Spencer: and like, ones that would actually be like, a hunt in the real game. (0:04:18) Spencer: And, you just fight ’em, you’re kind of timed, similarly to how you would do like a, say like a raid in Pokemon Go. (0:04:26) Spencer: Um, a lot more… (0:04:28) Spencer: Intensive than Pokemon Go, if you’ll believe that. (0:04:32) Spencer: You’re still basically clicking. (0:04:34) Spencer: But you can like… (0:04:35) Kevin: Okay, sure I right you’re you’re on mobile there’s only so much you can do right uh-huh (0:04:36) Spencer: Yeah, you can like, swipe to dodge. (0:04:40) Spencer: Yeah, you can swipe to dodge, you can get perfect, like, you know, perfect dodges and stuff. (0:04:45) Spencer: Um, and then there are some combinations. (0:04:48) Spencer: ‘Cause I’m using, um, what is it, Greatsword? (0:04:51) Spencer: And you can like, kind of do this thing where you like, if you start swinging and then you swipe, you’ll do kind of that shoulder, you know, shoulder charge attack. (0:05:03) Kevin: - Yeah, yeah, right. (0:05:03) Spencer: So there are definitely like, combos and stuff that you can figure out. (0:05:06) Spencer: It would benefit from a like, tutorial, you know, like in a fighting game, you have your little like, tutorial, you know, practice area. (0:05:15) Kevin: - Right. (0:05:15) Spencer: Or something like that, ‘cause you can like, then you could figure out, yeah, training room. (0:05:16) Kevin: - Oh, okay, yeah, training room, yeah. (0:05:20) Spencer: Um, but yeah, so you walk around, you fight monsters, you collect, uh, collect different resources, your little, um… (0:05:29) Spencer: What are the little cats called? (0:05:32) Kevin: Uh, the Palicos? (0:05:33) Spencer: Palakos, yeah, you have one, so it runs around and collects resources for you. (0:05:34) Kevin: Right, right. (0:05:38) Spencer: Um, it’ll also mark monsters too, so you can like, come back. (0:05:41) Spencer: back. Yeah, it’s pretty, my understanding is it’s a little bit more leaning. (0:05:45) Spencer: towards the world’s aesthetic. So the different monsters from there and stuff. (0:05:48) Kevin: Yeah, okay, sure. (0:05:50) Spencer: It’s fun. You kind of plateau a little bit if you aren’t able to go out and get resources. I’ve needed to upgrade like my weapons for a while now but I just simply can’t find find the resources I need. So it is what it is. But yeah, it’s been fun. (0:06:00) Kevin: Ahh. (0:06:02) Kevin: Okay. (0:06:04) Kevin: Have you tried any other weapons? (0:06:09) Spencer: Well, in Rise and in World I was using Swishax, which is not in this. (0:06:14) Kevin: Right what what (0:06:15) Spencer: Unfortunately. Yeah, they left it out. So I had to go with the next best thing. (0:06:22) Spencer: They do have, you know, your like kind of daily challenges that give you experience for your rank and some of the challenges will ask of you to do things with other weapons. So they do try to like kind of get you to branch out. It’ll be like, “Oh, (0:06:40) Spencer: kill three monsters with like a hammer or something like that.” So you will inevitably have at least one of each weapon somewhat, you know, upgraded and stuff so that way those little challenges won’t be such a pain. (0:06:40) Kevin: Okay. Okay. (0:06:52) Kevin: Uh-huh okay okay I I asked because so for people who aren’t familiar with monster hunter as the name implies right you’re just out hunting monsters but there’s different types of weapons and they all play significantly differently so I wonder like is that the same here does a bow hunt player feel different (0:07:20) Spencer: They definitely do. The, you know, like the sword and shield is a lot faster. You start off with that too. (0:07:27) Spencer: So you kind of like, I think you don’t even get to choose a different weapon until you reach rank 10. (0:07:33) Spencer: Which can go by pretty quickly depending on like the area you are and you know how close you are. (0:07:40) Spencer: Much like Pokemon Go, you know, it’s a lot of it’s dependent on how close you are to like stops and other points of interest, right? (0:07:46) Spencer: So, you know, if you’re close to things like that… (0:07:50) Spencer: …you’re ranking probably go up pretty quickly within the first day. (0:07:54) Spencer: And you can get to the other weapons. (0:07:56) Spencer: But yeah, there is definitely a different playstyle to each one. (0:08:00) Spencer: You know, for as much as it is just tapping and swiping. (0:08:04) Kevin: Okay, all right, that’s interesting, but the fact that they don’t have the Switch X weapon I’ve played for Decade Plus, yeah, I know that game goes in the trash. (0:08:18) Spencer: Yeah, it was kind of a bummer when I saw that, I was like, “Oh man!” (0:08:24) Kevin: Alright, what else have you been up to? (0:08:25) Spencer: Umm, that and, oh god, this is so embarrassing for me to admit, but have you ever seen the ads for uh, that mobile game, Raid? (0:08:35) Kevin: Rage Battle Legends! (0:08:37) Spencer: Shadow Legends, yeah! (0:08:38) Kevin: Did you get your 300 free heroes? (0:08:39) Spencer: I was just, I was like, I… (0:08:43) Spencer: I did not, I just downloaded it, I was like, “What is this game about?” I keep seeing (0:08:48) Spencer: it, let me just try it, you know, if, for those of you who don’t know me, I download too many mobile games, and then my phone is just like full of them, and I don’t play them, (0:08:59) Spencer: and it’s just, it’s a bad habit that I need to stop and break, but I was like, “Whatever, (0:09:04) Spencer: they have money to hire all these famous actors to promote their game, so maybe it’s good.” (0:09:11) Spencer: And it’s not bad, I’ll be honest, you know what, it’s not bad, it is definitely a mobile game. It has everything you’d expect from a mobile game. It has… (0:09:18) Spencer: you know, timed items, rechargeable energy, you know, all the little… that bombards you with buying packs and stuff, but you know, whatever. (0:09:30) Spencer: I’m not into PvP too much, so I’m not concerned about having the best champions right away and stuff, but you know, it’s a mobile game. (0:09:40) Spencer: I don’t know what else there is to say about it. You wait for things. (0:09:43) Kevin: Okay, like okay, what do the it’s a is it a it’s it a gotcha game? I’m assuming it’s a gotcha game right to get your (0:09:52) Spencer: yeah so there are there are these like hero crystals or something I’ve only been playing it for not too long so pardon me for any any hardcore raid players out there I just called the whatever you know these crystals and you like summon heroes and stuff and you know nine times out of ten you’re summoning one that’s gonna be used for fodder for something else but every once in a while you’ll summon some epic hero or whatever so yeah it’s a gachi game (0:10:01) Kevin: Okay [laughter] (0:10:20) Kevin: Okay, are there any cool designs? (0:10:23) Spencer: » They’re all pretty cool. (0:10:25) Spencer: If you are into like, you know, very like high fantasy and dark fantasy kind of stuff. (0:10:30) Spencer: They have some good stuff, you know, like Lord of the Rings or like, (0:10:34) Spencer: I don’t know what else, The Witcher. (0:10:37) Spencer: If you’re into that kind of stuff, then you’ll probably be drawn to the aesthetic. (0:10:39) Kevin: Okay, hi, Fanny. (0:10:41) Spencer: Yeah, there are, it is a little odd, some of the designs, (0:10:46) Spencer: cuz like they lean into like fantasy of multiple cultures. (0:10:52) Spencer: There’s like a whole subset of like, you know, (0:10:55) Spencer: clearly Asian inspired fantasy people and creatures. (0:10:58) Kevin: Oh, door. Okay. (0:11:00) Spencer: Which is kind of interesting to see with more European style, (0:11:05) Spencer: more medieval style fantasy. (0:11:08) Spencer: You know, you’ll have your like, knights of the round table style knight fighting alongside like a ninja, but I mean, (0:11:17) Spencer: I can see why they have enough money to make ads like that, so it’s very solid. (0:11:22) Kevin: Yeah? (0:11:23) Spencer: I will say that, yeah. (0:11:23) Kevin: And hey, now that it’s been brought on the podcast, I’m sure they’ll approach us for a sponsorship now. (0:11:28) Spencer: Hopefully, yeah, you’re welcome. (0:11:29) Kevin: There you go, Al. (0:11:31) Kevin: I can’t wait for Al to read how much he loves rage at relations. (0:11:37) Kevin: Um… (0:11:40) Kevin: Okay. (0:11:41) Kevin: Oh, hey- (0:11:41) Spencer: What have you been playing? (0:11:43) Kevin: Ugh… (0:11:45) Kevin: Mostly- (0:11:46) Kevin: Mostly paleopines, I don’t lie. (0:11:48) Kevin: Um… (0:11:49) Kevin: This week’s been a lot of paleopines. (0:11:53) Kevin: But, uh, before that, I’m going to plug the other show, Rainbow Road Radio, (0:12:01) Kevin: hosted by my- our mutual friend Alex, and I happen to be on it. (0:12:07) Kevin: We covered Luigi’s Mansion last week, we are back from our break. (0:12:12) Kevin: And, uh, to kick off Spooktober- (0:12:15) Kevin: Well, you know, Halloween, whatever. (0:12:18) Kevin: Uh, we played Luigi’s Mansion. (0:12:20) Kevin: Um, the original for the GameCube. (0:12:20) Spencer: Oh, okay, okay, I was going to ask, didn’t they re-release it for DS, correct, or 3DS? (0:12:22) Kevin: Uh, yeah. (0:12:24) Kevin: Yes. (0:12:27) Kevin: Actually, that’s interesting because Alex played it on the DS. (0:12:31) Kevin: He did the remake, I did the original version. (0:12:34) Kevin: Um, and it’s interesting to hear those comparisons, but I will say, overall, like, that’s still a really good game. (0:12:43) Kevin: I never ha- I hadn’t played it before, actually. (0:12:45) Kevin: This is my first time playing the original. (0:12:45) Spencer: Oh wow, really? (0:12:46) Kevin: Yeah, um, so no nostalgia rose-colored glasses or whatever. (0:12:52) Spencer: I think that was the first game I got for my GameCube. That and Wave Race, yeah. (0:12:52) Kevin: But I enjoyed it. (0:12:53) Kevin: Yeah. (0:12:57) Kevin: Ooh, waveries, that’s a good one. (0:12:58) Spencer: Yeah. (0:13:00) Kevin: Um, uh, yeah, it was a launch game, I think, for the GameCube, so that makes sense. (0:13:05) Kevin: Um, I was surprised- one thing I was surprised by, because I had seen- I played the second one, Dark Moon, (0:13:14) Kevin: and I watched my brother play Luigi’s Mansion 3. (0:13:18) Kevin: So what I didn’t expect is Luigi’s Mansion 1, boy that they… (0:13:22) Kevin: Saw Resident Evil and said “What if we do Resident Evil with the Luigi?” (0:13:27) Kevin: Um, because boy that feels like a Resident Evil game, both the tank controls and the aesthetic, um, but overall very fun. (0:13:36) Kevin: Uh, so yeah, uh, check that episode out if you want more details on that, um, (0:13:36) Spencer: Mm-hmm. (0:13:44) Kevin: But yeah, aside from that, uh, a lot of the usual stuff, uh, (0:13:50) Kevin: a holly right it’s october now so every (0:13:52) Kevin: thing’s getting spooky and whatnot masters has yeah masters has Pokemon masters has spooky costumes rock sand looks great in her witch outfit Pokemon unite is getting mimic you in a week or two and Marvel snaps getting all sort of spooky cards for this season and I love the dumb monsters that they have in Marvel so I’m really happy uh but yeah that’s what I’ve been up (0:13:55) Spencer: Yeah, all the spooky updates. (0:14:22) Kevin: to like I said though a lot of paleopines I don’t think I’ve played anything else on my switch this week of the paleopines right right ok and we’ll get into wide later but before that let’s talk about the news alright first up let’s see here garden buddies. This is… (0:14:31) Spencer: Yeah, that’s been consuming my time too, as far as actual console games go, it’s just (0:14:52) Kevin: This is our previously announced game, but regardless, we have a trailer for it. (0:14:59) Kevin: Let me actually take a look at it. We have it announced for October 20th. (0:15:05) Kevin: Oh boy, that’s quite an aesthetic. I don’t remember this game at all, but these are little (0:15:16) Kevin: crops and vegetables with faces… and a bat… uh… (0:15:22) Kevin: It’s really funny. (0:15:23) Spencer: Now I watched this trailer and the voices… Man, I don’t know if they’re gonna get a cease and desist from Rare, but boy oh boy do they sound like your typical Banjo-Kazooie, uh… You know, little babbles (0:15:37) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, they do they do or for people who haven’t played rare on Animal Crossing pretty close to that, too Yeah, so you don’t remember this what is this game exactly? (0:15:45) Spencer: Yeah, yeah. (0:15:53) Kevin: yeah, because I don’t remember the trailer here, but it is releasing the 20th of October I said which oh my gosh actually that’s gonna be like almost (0:16:07) Kevin: These people are listening to this podcast. It’ll be out and it will be on Steam and on switch So you can look forward to that. Let me double check (0:16:19) Spencer: Yeah, I was curious too, because I mean, the trailer that I got here was just the release date and as far as I can tell, you’re the vegetables themselves? (0:16:26) Kevin: Yeah Yep, yeah, you are it’s a unique blend of cozy gardening simulator and mental self-care that’s Okay, that’s a lot of buzzwords The art. I don’t know how I feel about the art. I kind of like it. I kind of hate it (0:16:55) Kevin: The eyes are very (0:16:56) Kevin: Very very like Toa’i baby eyes Umm But there’s a little mushroom guy riding a frog So that looks cool Uhh (0:17:15) Kevin: heartwarming story, players accompanied by Mutzi will explore the magical world creating and building their plant sanctuary. The relaxing storyline will be filled with uplifting narration as well as unexpected twists and turns. They will make lots of friends with animals and plant creatures they encounter. (0:17:37) Kevin: So yeah, okay, it sounds like a lot, but they’re really emphasizing the de-stress and cozy feeling and whatnot, uh… (0:17:45) Kevin: I’m interested to see how this looks like. (0:17:48) Kevin: It’s definitely not your average farming game, it doesn’t look like. (0:17:54) Kevin: Just seeing, uh… (0:17:56) Kevin: From the perspective of being these little crops and things. (0:17:59) Spencer: it gives me kind of like a not to bring a prayer again but like almost like a view of a pinata vibe like you’re caring for these vegetables as like creatures (0:18:00) Kevin: Um, but, whoop. Yeah, go ahead. (0:18:03) Kevin: Yep. Yeah, it seems like that. (0:18:15) Kevin: I didn’t play Viva Pinata, and I heard it was the greatest thing on Earth, and I missed out on it. (0:18:19) Spencer: I only played it a little bit. I just… yeah. (0:18:20) Kevin: Okay. Okay, well… (0:18:24) Kevin: Regardless, people can find out more! (0:18:28) Kevin: Uh, again, October 20th. Very, very soon. (0:18:31) Kevin: Especially for the people who are listening to this. (0:18:34) Kevin: Okay, next up, we have… (0:18:38) Kevin: Ikone Island News. (0:18:41) Kevin: We have the Friend Pass release. (0:18:45) Kevin: It is out now as of recording. (0:18:47) Kevin: And so, you can… (0:18:50) Kevin: Ah! Friends… I thought it was like a battle pass. No. (0:18:54) Kevin: It is multiplayer co-op with three of your friends. You can do it online. (0:19:00) Kevin: And… Oh, what? That’s so cool! (0:19:04) Kevin: If one… only one person has the full version, everyone can play indefinitely. (0:19:10) Kevin: Um, there’s like a demo that you can find out about. (0:19:15) Kevin: Play co-op for a few hours. (0:19:17) Kevin: Uh, two hours of play, it looks like. (0:19:19) Kevin: But, uh, if you have the whole game, everyone can just play. (0:19:22) Kevin: And you don’t have to buy it or four copies to have four people playing. (0:19:28) Kevin: Uh, that is very cool. (0:19:31) Spencer: Yeah, that’s always nice when they do some kind of like, as long as just one person owns something, you know, then everyone has access to it, at least via online, you know, like connecting to each other for multiplayer or something like that. (0:19:47) Kevin: Yeah, that is cool. There is a large list of patch notes. (0:19:55) Kevin: I invite people to look at the link because they are pretty in-depth with their patch notes. (0:20:02) Kevin: But the big new other big news is that this will be launching the full 1.0 version on November 9th of this year, (0:20:14) Spencer: All right around the corner. (0:20:14) Kevin: which will only be two or three. Yeah, two or three. (0:20:17) Kevin: That’s really impressive. Wow. What a feel-good announcement. (0:20:23) Kevin: Everyone can just play together and you not having to buy the game for everyone. (0:20:31) Kevin: That’s great. And so to remind people, IKONOI ISLAND. Let me see, I don’t remember. (0:20:38) Kevin: I talk so many games, I forget which ones are which. This one is… Why is there a shark man in this? (0:20:48) Kevin: Okay, so yeah, no, it’s very Minecraft-y. Gather resources, craft tools, build your base and whatnot. (0:20:59) Kevin: So basically very Minecraft survival type game on an island. The art is cute and there’s like a shark man. (0:21:06) Kevin: That seems cool. That’s exciting though. You know, Minecraft is… or the genre, whatever you want to call it, is great for multiplayer. (0:21:16) Kevin: So this is this. (0:21:17) Kevin: It really is exciting. (0:21:18) Kevin: And yeah, November 9th, that launches on Xbox, Steam, Epic Games, and PlayStation. (0:21:26) Kevin: Yeah, alright, there you go. (0:21:30) Kevin: Good job, Ikune Island. (0:21:32) Kevin: That actually might get me to play with multiple people. (0:21:36) Kevin: Uh, that’s so cool. (0:21:39) Kevin: Next up, we have news on… (0:21:44) Kevin: Oh, do the King of Bar Mee- (0:21:47) Kevin: simulators farming simulator 22 is that a weight? (0:21:51) Kevin: Yeah, okay 22. I thought they could wind up with the years, but I guess not I’m wrong, okay Okay, so it is An expansion okay. This is an expansion that will launch on November 14th They’re adding carrots. Why were carrots not available before? (0:22:10) Spencer: That, yeah, very odd. I had to reread that to make sure that was correct, because carrots are like the most basic crop, right? In just things, in general. You got carrots, you got like potatoes, and like wheat. (0:22:17) Kevin: Uh, in life? I can’t, like, yep, yeah, yeah, that’s really surprising, um, and it’s surprising because, like, looking, all the detail they put into these other machines they’re releasing and stuff like that, um, it’s okay, but, uh… (0:22:47) Kevin: There you go, carrots, um, they’re adding a few other things, what is it, parsnips and a few other crops, but, uh, yeah, I’m curious, yeah, more machines, crops, uh, oh, and there’s, (0:22:57) Spencer: And some more machines too. (0:23:04) Kevin: yeah, there’s new machines that specifically help with these crops, like carrots, oh my gosh, like, oh, this, this is intense, like, they have real intense machine names and stuff like that. (0:23:17) Kevin: But, uh, oh, redbeat, yep, there it is. (0:23:21) Kevin: Uh, anyways, that again is November 22nd. (0:23:24) Kevin: That is the premium expansion, uh, for farming simulator. (0:23:29) Kevin: 20-20, er, just 22. (0:23:32) Kevin: Okay, next up, ah, now this is a game I do know. (0:23:35) Kevin: We have Garden Galaxy, uh, for people unfamiliar. (0:23:40) Kevin: We did an episode on it. (0:23:41) Kevin: It is, uh, you’re building a little garden, (0:23:48) Kevin: everything’s kind of randomly generated, the items you get. (0:23:52) Kevin: Um, so it’s an interesting loop of trying to expand your item and trying to get your garden and get the items you want. (0:23:59) Kevin: Um, but, uh, they’re getting an update. (0:24:02) Kevin: I am pleased to see this game, uh, continue getting support because it is a fun game. (0:24:06) Kevin: I need to go back to it probably now because on October 16th, (0:24:10) Kevin: which means when people are listening to this, it will already be out, (0:24:14) Kevin: There is getting an update with all of the other videos. (0:24:17) Kevin: Autumn themed items, we got pumpkins, jack-o’-lanterns, (0:24:22) Kevin: your fall leaves, and whatnot. (0:24:25) Kevin: So yeah, I think that’s the first set of seasonal items they’ve done like that before. (0:24:32) Kevin: Oh, no, that’s not true, they did a summer update. (0:24:34) Kevin: Either way, that actually might get me back in because I’ve been meaning to check it out. (0:24:42) Kevin: I’m sure they’ve done a lot of patches. (0:24:44) Kevin: the 10 months it’s been out. (0:24:45) Spencer: So I’m looking at this. Are you on like an island or something or are you what exactly it’s like you said Just randomly generated (0:24:50) Kevin: So, you… yeah, so it starts off… you’re basically on a floating island or set… (0:25:01) Kevin: it’s a tile-based grid-type game, right? (0:25:05) Kevin: And so it’s just floating out in space. (0:25:08) Kevin: It’s basically like an island. (0:25:10) Spencer: Okay, hence galaxy. (0:25:11) Kevin: And you’re… yeah, yeah, that’s the name, right? (0:25:14) Kevin: Yeah, Garden Galaxy. (0:25:15) Kevin: And you’re just… you’re generating items to decorate your garden, but that includes… (0:25:20) Kevin: like, new piles of terrain and land to expand your area. (0:25:27) Kevin: So yeah, it is… it’s a fascinating little game because it’s… at least when I first played it, (0:25:28) Spencer: Ah, okay. (0:25:36) Kevin: it requires some patience. (0:25:39) Kevin: I remember calling it the most frustrating, cozy, or relaxing game I’ve ever played, (0:25:45) Kevin: because the loop of how things were generated was… (0:25:49) Kevin: » Thank you. (0:25:50) Kevin: » I recommend people do check it out because it’s only like 10 bucks and it is relaxing. At least when it wasn’t frustrating. (0:26:10) Kevin: Again, that is October 16th for the autumn update. Go get your spooky garden on and whatnot. Uh, oh god, oh no. (0:26:20) Kevin: No, this next news. I don’t like it. No, that’s why I don’t like it. Go ahead. (0:26:24) Spencer: Oh, I saw it. I’m excited. You want me to announce it? (0:26:31) Spencer: Alright, well, our next thing, Animal Crossing LEGO sets. (0:26:38) Spencer: This is an audio podcast, but I’m rubbing my hands together. (0:26:41) Kevin: Can hear it I can oh we have Okay, you’re already a Lego man, okay See that’s that’s a thing right cuz I’ve managed to not dive into Lego Like it’s it’s always been there. It’s tempted me But this is the one that’s probably gonna break me I’m I’m gonna be in (0:26:43) Spencer: If there’s one thing I spend more money on than video games, it is LEGO sets. (0:26:51) Spencer: Oh yeah, I’m looking at the Rivendell set right now. (0:27:11) Kevin: So to get more specific, there’s been rumors and leaks of this and whatnot. (0:27:15) Kevin: But we have official announcements that it will be releasing on March 2024. (0:27:21) Kevin: We have a handful of sets. (0:27:27) Kevin: They are Bunny’s Outdoor Activities, Cap’n’s Island Boat Tour, (0:27:31) Kevin: Nook’s Cranny and Rosie’s House, Isabelle’s House Visit, and Julian’s Birthday Party. (0:27:36) Spencer: So, my understanding is that these sets are also modular, this is what I’ve heard through the grapevine, and they are meant to be able to essentially create your own island as if you were actually making an island in Animal Crossing. (0:27:42) Kevin: Yes. That is correct. (0:27:50) Kevin: Yes, that is correct. They come, all the sets come on this flat base or whatever and yeah, (0:27:58) Kevin: you’ll just be able to swap the positions or interlock them. You know, LEGO your way through it and whatnot. (0:28:04) Kevin: Yeah, yeah. (0:28:04) Spencer: Yeah, I mean, they’re Legos, so, like, you know. (0:28:07) Spencer: Yes. (0:28:08) Spencer: But, uh… (0:28:10) Spencer: Which makes me feel like we can expect to see more than just what’s announced in the future. (0:28:15) Kevin: Yes, so one of the kickers the there’s minifigs right of course lego that’s one of the half the fun or whatever From what I saw they’re nothing too crazy. They all look pretty standard minifigs That look like Animal Crossing characters Okay, go ahead go ahead (0:28:26) Spencer: Yeah, now I have a gripe with these minifigs, I’m sorry, but the proportions look a little off in my opinion. (0:28:41) Spencer: When you’re playing Animal Crossing, the characters kind of look very like chibi-like and they’re very small, I guess. (0:28:47) Spencer: I mean, I guess they’re not small because your character also looks like it’s half the the size of a tree, but at the same time, everything is– (0:28:50) Kevin: Yeah. (0:28:56) Spencer: everything’s pretty trunk, you know, it’s just like you kind of have a big head, a little body, (0:29:01) Spencer: and they decided to make these regular minifigs size, so now this big head is on this kind of like elongated minifig body, and I don’t know, I think they should have gone with the shorter legs personally, or something, I just think they could have made it like half-sized minifigs. (0:29:11) Kevin: Yeah Okay I guess Yeah Well, I mean yeah, this is interesting because this is the merging of two very powerful vocal fan bases, right? (0:29:22) Spencer: I realized that would be an unpopular opinion. (0:29:39) Kevin: I will say though like I played since the original Animal Crossing right and they were even more chibi like back then they got a growth spurt (0:29:47) Spencer: Oh, for sure. (0:29:54) Kevin: So, I don’t know, maybe I’m just used to it because of that, but anyways, as for the sets, (0:30:01) Kevin: we have pricings for all of them. (0:30:05) Kevin: The most expensive one is Nook’s Cranny and the Rosy House, which is 75 bucks, which is forgiving for like, no sets, let’s say. (0:30:13) Spencer: Yeah, the LEGO sets are expensive now. (0:30:16) Spencer: So, 75 bucks for… (0:30:17) Kevin: Yeah. (0:30:19) Spencer: I mean you’re essentially getting two houses, right? (0:30:20) Kevin: Yes. More or less. (0:30:21) Spencer: Every other set is kind of more of one house, so… (0:30:24) Kevin: Yes. It’s still going to look small and I’m going to feel it’s way overpriced, but am I still going to get it? Probably. (0:30:32) Kevin: I want nookscranny. Oh, it’s not actually nookscranny. It’s one of the updated versions. It’s not the little shack. (0:30:37) Spencer: Yeah, it’s not the little shack, wow. (0:30:39) Kevin: Oh, that’s disappointing. Oh, well. (0:30:45) Kevin: But yeah, I’m really scared though, like, for myself because I’m worried. (0:30:54) Kevin: That this will be the gateway and I’m going to be buying my nookcranny set and I’m like, oh, you know what? There’s that Lego Green Hill Zone with Sonic. (0:31:03) Kevin: I could just put it right next to him, you know? Sonic could visit the cranny if I wanted to. (0:31:10) Spencer: You just, you know though, like in a year from now, they’re gonna have some, I’m gonna say almost $200 museum set, and it’s gonna have blathers, and it’s gonna have different sections of the museum, and little animals that you can put in there, little octopus, (0:31:23) Kevin: No! (0:31:29) Spencer: a little fish, a little frog, you know it’s in the pipeline. (0:31:33) Kevin: Why did you- I didn’t think about that. Why did you jinx me like this? (0:31:37) Kevin: No! That’s gonna be the best one! (0:31:40) Kevin: No! (0:31:41) Kevin: We don’t have Town Hall either. That one’s gonna be big. (0:31:41) Spencer: They go, “If it’s not in the pipeline, come hire me.” (0:31:44) Spencer: Ugh, yeah, town hall. (0:31:47) Kevin: Oh, it’s gonna hurt me. Okay. (0:31:50) Kevin: But, this is just the tip of the iceberg, because we’re talking Animal Crossing, right? (0:31:55) Kevin: There is very much room for the Animal Crossing blind bag minifigs or whatever. (0:32:01) Kevin: Um, or even furniture set. (0:32:03) Kevin: Animal Crossing has a lot of items, so I could easily dip into that. (0:32:07) Spencer: Yeah, everything in Animal Crossing could be a blind bag for this set. (0:32:08) Kevin: Right? And that terrorized me? (0:32:12) Spencer: It is a little, yeah. (0:32:15) Kevin: Oh, we don’t have a K.K. (0:32:39) Kevin: So yeah, stay tuned to see my demise as I finally dive into the LEGO world, and it all ends for me. (0:32:48) Kevin: All right, so again, that is 2024, still a few months before the end of that. (0:32:55) Kevin: Okay, you know what, I have a question for you. You say you’re into LEGO, (0:32:57) Kevin: I don’t know how hardcore you are, but do LEGOs run out of stock easily? (0:33:04) Spencer: Hear me sigh as I say that, um, trying to think. (0:33:11) Spencer: So in the past I used to just, you know, back, back in the day, you know, when they were still doing kind of just their, their own sets, which they still do. (0:33:20) Spencer: I know people complain that they have like too many licensed sets now, but they have plenty of unlicensed or, you know, only Lego sets. (0:33:29) Spencer: Um, you know, I kind of just got what was there. (0:33:32) Spencer: I was never particularly looking for any kind of (0:33:34) Spencer: set. There was this Mars like Mars set that they had that I really enjoyed that I did try to get like a couple of different sets from but nothing like you know going out of my way and stuff with the advent of the internet though and being able to look all this stuff up like I am now as an adult. There are definitely sets that do you know do just disappear because they’ve sold out of them or they just stop making them. I can’t imagine them doing this with the (0:33:46) Kevin: Okay. (0:33:48) Kevin: Yeah. (0:34:04) Spencer: Animal Crossing set. You know I got to imagine that this is something that they’re planning to continue to release you know new sets for and keep updating with the old sets. For instance the Mario sets I think you can still get a lot of those you know at least if you look you might have to look a little bit harder but they’re generally like available. The set that I totally missed out on and just kick myself every time I think about it is they had a Voltron set and it came with all the different all different parts and they all like you know they all transformed into Voltron together and stuff. Yes it was and I saw that and I was like one day I’ll get it and then I just waited too long and that’s what happens but. (0:34:15) Kevin: Okay. (0:34:16) Kevin: Okay. (0:34:20) Kevin: Sure. (0:34:40) Kevin: You could, in fact, form the head. (0:34:52) Kevin: Oh, I know that feeling um well, i’m just worried because Like I said, I don’t know how the inventory issues are dealt with um in lego, but They’re drawing in the animal crossing nintendo crowd, right? We look what happened with van gogh Oh, come on Look what happened with Remember when julian was a commodity or not julian. Whatever his name was the Pat with the heterochromia (0:35:21) Spencer: Oh, yeah, yeah. (0:35:23) Kevin: And when new horizons drop If anyone could make this is the inventory problem, it would be these fans. Um, but oh boy, here we go uh but maybe the well the price isn’t even the worst for all of them, but uh We’ll see. Um I just want them to bring back by onical. That’s the only lego thing I ever really got those were cool little robot dudes (0:35:48) Spencer: Hmm, interesting. I was somewhat into Bionicle. I had quite a few, but not as much as the regular sets. (0:35:58) Kevin: All right, um, two other pieces of news album and put them on here, (0:36:04) Kevin: but I do want to mention them. (0:36:06) Kevin: I hope I, I listened to the last episode, but I hope I’m not repeating anything. (0:36:10) Kevin: Um, there have been patches dropped both for Meneko’s night market and paleo pines. (0:36:16) Kevin: Uh, last two, well, the last game I covered and the one we’re covering today, (0:36:20) Kevin: um, the Meneko’s night market. (0:36:23) Kevin: I don’t know all the details, but I’m very thankful that they’ve got these patches (0:36:28) Kevin: out quickly and, uh, and they’re already available for switch and steam versions. (0:36:34) Kevin: Um, I hope Al will find the links and maybe put them in the show notes, (0:36:39) Kevin: but, uh, go check them out. (0:36:41) Kevin: I will possibly fire up Meneko’s night market again, see how much it’s improved. (0:36:45) Kevin: Um, because I very much liked that game, just hoping for few fixes and well, (0:36:50) Kevin: they roll some out, uh, paleo pines. (0:36:53) Kevin: I read the patch notes and it’s fascinating. (0:36:57) Kevin: Uh, at least one of the items is fascinating. (0:36:59) Kevin: In general, they just kind of, you know, polished up a few edges and, and did nice things. (0:37:05) Kevin: No major updates. (0:37:06) Kevin: Um, but, uh, with that said, let’s, let’s just get on into it. (0:37:13) Kevin: Uh, let’s talk about paleo pines. (0:37:14) Spencer: Yes, paleopines. (0:37:15) Kevin: Okay. (0:37:18) Kevin: So this is available on steam switch. (0:37:22) Kevin: I don’t know what else it’s available on. (0:37:23) Spencer: I think it’s available on everything. (0:37:24) Kevin: Uh, is it? (0:37:27) Kevin: Okay. (0:37:27) Kevin: Um. (0:37:28) Kevin: So, for people who don’t know, the elevator pitch is pretty simple. (0:37:33) Kevin: It’s farming, but you have dinosaurs. (0:37:35) Kevin: Um, it’s what’s on the box, and it’s what you get. (0:37:38) Kevin: Um. (0:37:39) Spencer: It’s… exactly what you get. (0:37:39) Kevin: Yup. (0:37:44) Kevin: Alright, so let’s, before we get into the nitty gritty, what are your overall thoughts? (0:37:51) Spencer: My overall thoughts and opinions, it’s good to start off with this because I’m someone that kind of complains about things even if I like them. So I enjoyed this game. I did have a thoroughly good time myself playing this game. There are plenty of things I would change about it but ultimately this is probably a game I will come back to I might even play it after we stop talking to be quite honest. (0:38:14) Kevin: Okay, I probably will see [laugh] (0:38:17) Spencer: yeah the last episode I was on (0:38:21) Spencer: I talked about parkasaurus I don’t think I’ve touched that game since we stopped talking about it yeah but this game this game was definitely enjoyable it’s got a lot of charm you know using the dinosaurs for farming is different I guess I mean I’m not as big of a farming game player has you know you guys are so maybe this is just exactly the same you just skinned as dinosaurs but it was fun (0:38:25) Kevin: Hahaha, well there you go. (0:38:39) Kevin: » Yes, right, yeah, yep. (0:38:51) Spencer: it has a collection element to it very much kind of like Pokemon or something like that you know so it scratches a lot of different itches for a lot of different people and I feel like you can get yourself lost without necessarily doing the main kind of quest so to speak yeah there are missions that you do too in this game and you know I spent plenty of time just fumbling around doing my own thing. (0:38:57) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:39:21) Spencer: You know, ultimately that’s kind of what I like in games like this, so yeah, I had a great time playing it, great, great might be a little exaggerating, so yeah, what did you think? (0:39:30) Kevin: Mm-hmm, okay All right, um So overall it’s a definite thumbs up and recommend for me This is hard for me because I love dinosaurs very much I Was a dinosaur kid growing up. I watched Jurassic Park when I was little dinosaurs were my Pokemon before Pokemon and (0:39:57) Kevin: And so, obviously I’m heavily biased toward a game that… (0:40:00) Kevin: …explores that, but as someone who is relatively well-versed in farming games, I still think it’s enjoyable. (0:40:11) Kevin: All the points you made, I agree with. (0:40:15) Kevin: So, let’s get into the… (0:40:19) Kevin: But, overall though, I would recommend this to people to try out. (0:40:23) Kevin: If you enjoy farming games, I think there’s a good chance you’ll enjoy this. (0:40:27) Kevin: And if you enjoy dinosaurs, you will probably also- (0:40:30) Kevin: enjoy this. (0:40:31) Spencer: you might even enjoy it even more than if you were just a farming game person quite honestly. (0:40:32) Kevin: I actually agree, yes, because I do think the dinosaurs are done really well. (0:40:40) Kevin: Um, but okay, let’s start into this specific. (0:40:43) Kevin: So, I have three sections here. (0:40:48) Kevin: The bad, the good, and the ugly. (0:40:50) Spencer: OK. (0:40:51) Kevin: So let’s start with the bad. What complaints do you have? (0:40:51) Spencer: Complaints. (0:40:56) Spencer: So the biggest thing– my complaints are small things that add up, right? (0:41:04) Spencer: Accessing things. (0:41:05) Spencer: For instance, if you’re on a mounted dinosaur, (0:41:09) Spencer: for whatever reason– unless I’m just horrible at this game– (0:41:12) Spencer: you cannot access or interact with things other than the dinosaur’s interaction. (0:41:18) Spencer: So let’s say you start off with the parasaur. (0:41:20) Spencer: That’s just your dinosaur that you start off with. (0:41:21) Kevin: Right? (0:41:23) Kevin: Right (0:41:23) Spencer: And each dinosaur has a skill. (0:41:27) Spencer: They can clear debris, which is what the parasaur can do. (0:41:30) Spencer: And it can sprint. Two actions. (0:41:32) Spencer: But if you’re not doing that, you can’t interact with anything else. (0:41:38) Spencer: If you want to talk to someone, you have to get off your dinosaur. (0:41:41) Spencer: If you want to access your storage, you have to get off your dinosaur. (0:41:44) Spencer: Which just blows me away. I was like, (0:41:46) Spencer: “Come on, the person’s right there. Just let me talk to them. (0:41:48) Spencer: to them. Why do I have to get off my dinosaur? (0:41:49) Kevin: Yep, yep, absolutely, um Yeah, I I want to put just a little side note, um since we’re getting into it, uh Spencer and I are dinosaurs or nerds so we will be using dinosaur names Apologies if you if you listener might not be familiar. I invite you to look them up because dinosaurs are cool (0:41:50) Spencer: So, that would be one thing I would, you know, developers, if you’re listening, patch that, please. (0:42:17) Spencer: Indeed, and then you’ll see the name and then you’ll be like, “How do I pronounce that?” (0:42:21) Spencer: And quite honestly, we probably won’t pronounce all of them right, but it’s fun and trying. (0:42:25) Kevin: yep yes okay but um but yes that’s that’s a good point um that is annoying how you can’t talk to someone uh or gather certain points gather certain materials off foraging points and whatnot while on a dinosaur uh at the very yeah no judge say that I can kind of understand the the foraging part maybe you’re high up on a t-rex but come on (0:42:44) Spencer: That’s correct, because some… Oh, sorry, go ahead. (0:42:55) Kevin: can talk to someone while mounted on a t-rex I can say hey (0:42:59) Spencer: Yeah, I don’t really understand the decision, to be quite honest. (0:43:05) Kevin: Yeah, well, there’s a few things I don’t 100% understand, like, so there’s a handful of little things. I don’t know if they all add up to me something major, but like, one of my biggest gripes is inventory stuff. You can get big numbers of items, right? Like, you can get hundreds and hundreds of pieces of wood. (0:43:28) Kevin: Well, when you want to move between your bag and your storage or whatever, you don’t have the option of saying, “Okay, take out…” (0:43:35) Kevin: …20 or 30. You can only do the entire amount or half of it. And that’s frustrating. (0:43:38) Spencer: Yes, I was gonna ask this, I wasn’t sure if I was just like, not getting- (0:43:44) Spencer: Was there a tutorial I missed? Or if this is like, you know, just, but yeah, it’s only stacks, right? (0:43:47) Kevin: nope, or at least, I missed it too then. (0:43:51) Kevin: Yeah, you can, and what’s odd is, it exists because when you sell things at the trader or whatever, (0:43:52) Spencer: Like, I was like- (0:43:57) Kevin: you can select exactly how many you want to sell. (0:44:01) Kevin: But that’s the only time. (0:44:02) Spencer: Yeah, no, but then it’s and it gets even more deep than that because it’s Inventory management from your storage to inventory is only stacks, right? So like you have 300 wood in your storage and then you click on it and it’ll put all 300 in there but in stacks of a hundred and then now you have to go back in return 200 stacks, so you only have one stack and (0:44:23) Kevin: Yup, yup, exactly. (0:44:29) Spencer: Then when you go to sell that wood, here’s what get (0:44:32) Spencer: me. You go to sell that wood, and then you can select individually. You can select like I only sell two wood, right? And they do have a button for min and max. So like I want to sell the whole stack of wood, but they don’t have a button to increment it in tens. Also, which I feel like is something like, yeah, that really, that whole thing needs a lot of work. (0:44:56) Kevin: Yeah, it is wild and again, there’s even the trading like said it’s still missing that stacks of 10 which would be nice But the fact that that’s the only place where you can do Individual counts of whatnot. It’s baffling to me Let’s see what what other little complaints can you think of? (0:45:20) Spencer: So, I don’t know if this would be a little complaint. (0:45:25) Spencer: I don’t know where this falls on your good, bad, and ugly. (0:45:25) Kevin: Hehe. (0:45:29) Spencer: I will say there were a lot of things I was finding out about the game. (0:45:34) Spencer: I didn’t get, I’ll be honest, I didn’t get like probably end game, is there an end game? (0:45:39) Spencer: I don’t really know. (0:45:41) Kevin: I think there is. I mean, there’s the main quest. You have to find where the rest of the parasaurs are. (0:45:42) Spencer: There is, right? (0:45:44) Spencer: Yeah. (0:45:45) Spencer: Yeah. (0:45:46) Spencer: Yeah, you know, like I said earlier, I kind of… (0:45:50) Spencer: just ended up doing my own thing, which is, you know, it is what it is. (0:45:52) Kevin: Yeah. (0:45:53) Kevin: Uh huh. (0:45:55) Spencer: That’s kind of how it’s designed in the game. (0:45:57) Spencer: But so there’s a lot of things that I feel like I was finding out kind of on my own without… (0:46:06) Spencer: that would have been better maybe explained, you know, like I’ll be honest. (0:46:12) Spencer: I didn’t realize that holding what was the RZ was sprint for some of those dinosaurs. (0:46:18) Spencer: I was puttin’ around that whole area, and it was taking me forever. (0:46:18) Kevin: Yep Yeah, ha ha ha ha oh no Oh No Um, oh, that’s raw. I agree with you Um, this is a complaint I have about many games because I think it’s a critical thing to be clear and explain yourself well and whatnot Um, I am struggling to think of I had a specific example, but I can’t think of it right now (0:46:23) Spencer: It would take like a half day just to get across the place. (0:46:47) Kevin: The sprinting thing there is a (0:46:48) Kevin: prompt on the bottom of the screen, but if you don’t pay it, they don’t call it out or anything. (0:46:52) Kevin: So it’s easy to miss, because there’s other prompts that are there, (0:46:56) Kevin: and the sprinting prompt is added when you’re on the right dinosaur, (0:47:00) Kevin: but it’s not there when you’re not on it, so it’s easily missable. (0:47:04) Kevin: possible. (0:47:06) Spencer: Oh, and so here’s the thing with the sprinting thing, too. (0:47:12) Spencer: If you click on, I believe it’s just R, (0:47:15) Spencer: your character will auto run in that direction. (0:47:16) Kevin: Wait, what? (0:47:17) Kevin: I didn’t know that! (0:47:19) Kevin: She- what?! (0:47:19) Spencer: Yes, there’s an auto run button. (0:47:21) Kevin: Oh my goodness. (0:47:22) Spencer: So I was clicking auto run, and I was thinking it was the sprint half the time. (0:47:22) Kevin: Oh, there you go. (0:47:24) Kevin: Oh, case in point. (0:47:32) Spencer: And I was like, this doesn’t look any faster. (0:47:35) Spencer: I guess I don’t need to hold the button. (0:47:36) Spencer: I feel like there’s a lot of things that get fed to you at either inopportune moments or just as far as information goes. (0:47:50) Spencer: You’re just kind of like, “Huh, I could have used that information like three days ago.” (0:47:54) Kevin: Yup, there was oh the So there is I remember my example. Um, there is a help option in the pause menu and it does have some tutorials in there It doesn’t really let you know that they’re there Which is a shame because a number of them are very helpful. They explain how to use your tools The one I wanted to mentioned was the soil we’ll get into it into it in a bit but essentially how to properly fertilize and till the soil and stuff like that. (0:48:29) Kevin: That information, I didn’t realize how it worked until I happened to find it in the tutorial items in the help menu. (0:48:37) Kevin: It would have been nice if that had been called out earlier. (0:48:40) Spencer: It’s funny that you mention the soil because it wasn’t until only the other day that I was, again, I was just thumbing through the profiles of the vegetables and I was like, (0:48:51) Spencer: “Huh, they really want you to crop rotate in this game, don’t they?” (0:48:53) Kevin: Yep, yep. (0:48:55) Spencer: That would have been useful to know before I planted tons of vegetables in random areas. (0:49:01) Kevin: Yep, um, absolutely. (0:49:04) Kevin: Um, so yeah, that is a complaint, like I said, I have about many games, just lack of clarity or not explaining things well. (0:49:12) Kevin: Uh, one hopefully that can get updated because that’s not impossible to fix. (0:49:17) Kevin: Just add some more prompts at certain points, so. (0:49:19) Spencer: No. (0:49:19) Spencer: Yeah, and I will give them credit, right? (0:49:20) Kevin: Fingers crossed we get those patches. (0:49:25) Spencer: Like some games you sit through tutorials and they are like, you know, some omnipotent someone or other talking at you going, “Hit A to use the ox.” (0:49:31) Kevin: Yep, yep Yep Yeah, it does it is not very handhold be not at all you Yeah, that’s One of the pros in my book that it doesn’t really put any pressure on you in almost any way (0:49:35) Spencer: You know, and then you’re like, “Okay, like I get it.” (0:49:37) Spencer: And then you have to sit there for like an hour. (0:49:39) Spencer: Right? (0:49:40) Spencer: This game really does kind of let you play the game almost right away. (0:49:58) Kevin: And I’ll get into that later when we talk about quests I think in the more (0:50:01) Kevin: detail but one final item I wanted to add in the bad list well I guess this kind of goes in the ugly I’m not the biggest fan of the art style of the game so okay well let me be more specific I like the dinosaurs the dinosaurs look great they’re they’re very cutesy and the way they’re presented in this game where people are just hanging out they’re your pals and working with them (0:50:16) Spencer: Really? (0:50:31) Kevin: and they live on your farm they’re not intimidating or scary I think that was managed really well I think that works well and I think it’s fantastic my part problem is the people right the people also have this very cutesy art style and it’s this might just be a very personal thing but it is really (0:50:48) Spencer: Okay, okay. (0:51:01) Kevin: looks like a Disney Junior show basically that’s the way I describe it in fact I watch Bluey right so I’ve seen other ads for Disney Junior shows there is one actually called Dino Ranch and it looks a lot like this yeah (0:51:07) Spencer: Yeah, I mean (0:51:18) Spencer: Yeah, the people are, I mean, it’s an art style, that’s for sure. (0:51:24) Spencer: It’s a design choice that they made. (0:51:27) Kevin: Yeah, and everything is very saccharine, like very… (0:51:31) Kevin: Happy… (0:51:33) Kevin: No one gets angry or there’s big problems or anything like that. (0:51:38) Kevin: There’s a character who says “zippity” and it just feels very kid show… (0:51:42) Kevin: Umm… (0:51:47) Spencer: Yeah, well, eh. So there’s a couple characters. One that stood out to me as Pippin. (0:51:54) Spencer: He does kind of get a little grumpy. (0:51:54) Kevin: Yeah They they’re actually in be non-binary Which I just like a thumbs up. That’s all right. No, but I just thumbs up to the Devs for throwing that in there right and I’ll have Pippin Pippin’s a little bit of a gremlin Go ahead Oh, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that that. (0:51:57) Spencer: Oh, sorry. (0:52:10) Spencer: Ah, yeah, but they get a little like, onry about things if you ask them to make like a, they make these, yeah, they make these like treats that, that’s basically how you tame the dinosaurs and they have like very specific, “Oh, it’s my family recipe, like don’t, we don’t screw with it” and then you ask them to make other treats and then they kind of get all upset about it instead of like, “Ah, fine, take your, take your

Al and Kev talk about Mineko's Night Market Also, we talk about Stardew Valley 1.6, the recently teased Lord of the Rings cottagecore game, and a number of recent release date announcements. Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:02:42: What Have We Been Up To 00:15:56: News 00:45:50: Mineko’s Night Market 01:32:52: Outro Links Mineko’s Night Market Release Dates Mineko Plush Coral Island PS5 Critter Crops Delay Sun Down Survivors Update Orange Season Update Travellers Rest Update To Pixelia Kickstarter Stardew Valley 1.6 Sneak Peek Stardew Valley Joja Parrot Tales of the Shire Teaser Tales of the Shire Site Mineko’s Night Market Contact Al on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheScotBot Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello farmers and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. My name is Al And I am playing the neko’s night market as we speak Fantastic we are gonna have so much to talk about this game. I think it’s gonna be (0:00:36) Kevin: I’m Kevin. (0:00:37) Kevin: Um, excuse me, I believe that is Wormburger’s Night Market? (0:00:47) Kevin: Uh, you think the game that’s been in development for eight years and has been my most anticipated game of like two years running? [laughs] (0:01:00) Al: Funny because like yeah, so like this podcast I’ve been going for like nearly five years now, right? (0:01:04) Al: And this game had already been announced four years before the podcast started So quite a while Did neko just poop on the ground It just just sat on the ground and stood up and then it was a garden block (0:01:12) Kevin: 2015 baby that’s that’s wild like I don’t I didn’t (0:01:25) Kevin: Yeah, if that’s possible, yeah. (0:01:26) Al: I think Niko just pooped on the ground. (0:01:30) Al: To give me somewhere to plant, all right. Well let’s see what happens with that. (0:01:34) Al: We’re gonna talk about the Niko’s Night Market, because somehow we managed to play this game in the five days since it came out. (0:01:43) Al: Yeah, we’re gonna talk about it. Before that, we’ve got a bunch of news to talk about. (0:01:43) Kevin: Yeah, but I played a lot so I have things to talk about (0:01:57) Al: there’s stuff we need to talk about, there’s stuff we definitely need to talk about. (0:01:58) Kevin: Is there I don’t I don’t I don’t know Not really I like going in blind [laugh] (0:02:00) Al: Have you not looked through the news? (0:02:02) Al: Oh Kevin, right, that’s fine, let’s go in blind. (0:02:05) Al: Most of it is pretty small, pretty quick, still good, but we’ve got two really chunky bits of news at the end that we need to talk about. (0:02:11) Kevin: Wait, we haven’t talked about that one yet? (0:02:13) Al: We have not talked about that yet. (0:02:14) Kevin: I- (0:02:14) Kevin: Oh my gosh, okay, we do have things to talk about, all right. (0:02:17) Al: Yep, we have big stuff to talk about. (0:02:20) Kevin: I know- I like how you know exactly what I’m looking at. (0:02:22) Al: Well, of course, of course I know. (0:02:26) Al: So we’ve recorded the last episode, I think like the day before that news came out. (0:02:30) Al: Um, was it me and Cody? I think it was. Uh, we, we’d recorded really early that week and then they came out with our news and that was really frustrating. So anyway. (0:02:31) Kevin: was it okay yes yes I didn’t know it was it good good (0:02:39) Al: Um, uh, first of all, though, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:02:46) Kevin: Um, okay, so in the Good good old me decided to do a whole bunch of things before Monneko dropped so you know the Pokemon DLC has been out for a minute, there’s been a lot of talk and So I finally gave in and I started playing Pokemon, but I wanted to play a good one. So I’m playing sword and shield I started a nuzlocke (0:03:22) Kevin: And it’s it’s a fun one to nuzlock through Because there’s so many a wide variety of encounters and and It’s surprisingly challenging at times. There’s there’s some heavy hitters in the game One going back to that Jen Like all all joking aside I I This is a subjective opinion, but I think it looks better (0:03:31) Al: Mmm, yes. (0:03:52) Kevin: And then scarlet violet like maybe not technically there’s probably It’s… (0:03:54) Al: I mean, I don’t think I disagree with that. I mean, I’m definitely one of the Scarlet and Violet enjoyers and defenders, but I don’t think that as a game it looks better than Sword and Shield. Definitely not. But I think personally that’s generally a problem with open world games. I don’t think that any of them look amazing. Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom have some moments where you’re like, “Wow.” But those are very few (0:04:09) Kevin: Yeah yeah. (0:04:19) Kevin: Yeah. (0:04:20) Kevin: Yes. (0:04:24) Kevin: You’re- you’re ner- yep, you’re right. (0:04:24) Al: and most of the time it’s just the same rocks and grass again. I think that is just a problem with them. So yes, I agree. (0:04:29) Kevin: Yeah. (0:04:31) Kevin: That’s fair. Yeah, no, that’s- that’s- I think that’s accurate. (0:04:35) Kevin: Um, so yeah, it is an uphill battle, I think, in that sense for Scarlet Violet, but… (0:04:41) Kevin: Even stuff like just the color palettes, I think they really, really pop in, uh, Sword and Shield. (0:04:43) Al: Oh yeah, especially Balonia. Amazing, amazing town. Just gorgeous, love it. (0:04:46) Kevin: Um… (0:04:50) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, the neon mushroom town, it’s awesome, yep, yep. (0:04:58) Kevin: And also one other comment, just like, again, looking back. (0:05:02) Kevin: The gym battles are just so good in Sword and Shield, (0:05:09) Kevin: like just this whole spectacle of a stadium battle and the chanting, (0:05:11) Al: Oh, yes. Yeah, definitely. The music. (0:05:15) Kevin: which, you know, actually fits in on like Scarlet Violet. (0:05:20) Kevin: It’s so bombastic and thrilling, and again, (0:05:25) Kevin: just comparing to Scarlet Violet, like, because of the freedom, (0:05:30) Kevin: I don’t know, they just, it wasn’t as memorable maybe, but again, (0:05:35) Kevin: that’s something subjective, but point B, ultimately, (0:05:38) Kevin: Sword and Shield is still really good, really fun, (0:05:41) Kevin: and I’m enjoying going through one of those luck. (0:05:44) Kevin: Well, I was before Monetco dropped, um, aside from that, (0:05:49) Kevin: I have had a big fighting game, Inch, um, so I dusted off a game called Skullgirls! (0:05:56) Kevin: Um, are you familiar with this at all, Al? (0:05:58) Kevin: Okay, so Skullgirls was originally released in 2013-2014, (0:06:07) Kevin: and they are still developing new stuff for it. Um, not a sequel, like the same game. (0:06:14) Kevin: It’s wild, um, it was, uh, it’s no- (0:06:19) Kevin: notable in the fighting game community for a couple of reasons. (0:06:23) Kevin: One, I mean, it’s a good game, for fighting game reasons, um, (0:06:26) Kevin: but aside from that, um, it’s all hand-drawn art, so it looks really good. (0:06:32) Kevin: Um, it has like a very stylistic art deco thing going on with a lot of its environments and settings. (0:06:39) Kevin: Um, and as the name implies, Skullgirls, um, at least originally, the original eight, (0:06:46) Kevin: I believe we’re all female fighters, um, which was you know, obviously not the norm in gaming in general, right? (0:06:54) Kevin: Um, it’s an all female cast, um, and they’ve done rounds of DLCs since then. (0:07:00) Kevin: Um, I think it’s going to be up to 18 by the end of this year. (0:07:04) Kevin: Um, I think there’s two males, but the rest are all females. (0:07:10) Kevin: Um, well, I mean, there’s a robot female and an alien monster thing. (0:07:16) Kevin: Um, but so, you know, um, take that how you will. (0:07:20) Kevin: Uh, it’s, it’s dynamic. (0:07:22) Kevin: It’s fun. (0:07:22) Kevin: It’s like not even fighting game or not. (0:07:26) Kevin: It’s, it’s just very good writing comical and then vibrant. (0:07:31) Kevin: Um, so yeah, skull girls to anyone who enjoys fighting games. (0:07:34) Kevin: That’s a hearty recommendation. (0:07:36) Kevin: It’s basically out on anything and everything. (0:07:38) Kevin: Um, uh, but, uh, aside from, yeah, so those were the two things I did. (0:07:42) Kevin: And then, uh, Meneco Wednesday came and it’s been all Meneco since then. (0:07:47) Kevin: What about you? (0:07:50) Al: Yeah, well, I mean, I think basically Maneko is the only game I’ve been playing this week. (0:07:56) Al: Maneko, Maneko, Maneko. (0:07:59) Al: I did play some more Pokémon, so I think I got my… (0:08:03) Al: I can’t remember where I was when we last talked, or when I last said it on the podcast, (0:08:08) Al: but I have done… (0:08:10) Al: I’ve completed the DLC on both games. (0:08:14) Al: I decided just to do… (0:08:16) Al: So my scarlet was like basically I hadn’t done anything in it. (0:08:20) Al: So I did the DLC without having done any of the badges. (0:08:23) Al: And then I was like, I’m just going to do all the badges. (0:08:26) Al: So I just did everything on that one. (0:08:27) Al: So I’ve now completed that. (0:08:27) Kevin: Right at least it’s fast to do it unlike other Pokemon games you can just knock them out (0:08:29) Al: And then, yeah, certainly once you’ve got everything. (0:08:36) Al: And then what else did I do? (0:08:39) Al: I did the DLC on my scarlet, my violet as well. (0:08:43) Al: And I completed the decks on that. (0:08:46) Al: And there’s a couple of side quests as well in the DLC. (0:08:49) Al: I did those as well. (0:08:50) Al: And yeah, just a bunch of Pokemon stuff in there. (0:08:56) Kevin: Have you- have you not gotten a bit tired of Scarlet Violet after doing it like three four times? (0:09:03) Al: times, yeah. I mean the story, yeah, sure, right? Like, the story bit is not fun. I still enjoy playing those games. Like, I still enjoy the core loop of those games. I still enjoy collecting Pokémon, blah, blah, blah. I think I have decided that I’m not going to do the new Professor Oak challenge that I suggested. I think that’s probably going a bit far. And if I want to do a Professor Oak challenge. (0:09:30) Kevin: until the second DLC drops. (0:09:33) Al: Well, I was going to wait until that because if you’re going to do it, then do it all the way, right? (0:09:39) Al: But then I was like, actually, if I want to do it, there’s so many games I haven’t done a Professor Oak challenge of, (0:09:43) Al: just do another one. (0:09:45) Al: I’m thinking about maybe doing Legends Arceus 1, for example, which could be fun, (0:09:53) Al: because I don’t have a Legends Arceus save file just now. (0:09:56) Al: I was thinking when you were talking about Nuzlockes, maybe it would be interesting as a Nuzlock, (0:10:03) Al: because obviously you’re not using Pokemon, right? (0:10:05) Al: So they’re not going to die, but you can die in that game. (0:10:07) Al: You can get knocked out in that game. (0:10:09) Kevin: Oh. (0:10:09) Al: So doing like a no death Arceus run, that could be interesting. (0:10:10) Kevin: No. (0:10:16) Al: Yeah, that’s probably about games. (0:10:19) Al: I mean, Pokemon Go, obviously, but that’s probably about it with games. (0:10:23) Al: I have, however, been watching a couple of things. (0:10:25) Al: I’ve been watching X-Men 92 and the run-up to the new X-Men 97 coming out next year. (0:10:30) Al: And I. (0:10:30) Kevin: Alright, how’s that been? (0:10:33) Al: It’s it’s good fun. I’m surprised at how like quickly and succinctly they’re getting through X-Men story lines like Like in the first season they do like like five or six big X-Men stories Like just that’s it. Those ones are done now and you’re like, oh my word, right? Wow, that was fast Yeah Well, it’s (0:10:50) Kevin: Yeah, this was prime 90s Saturday morning cartoon stuff, so like, there’s no time for plots or build up. (0:10:58) Kevin: Go do your enemy of the week. (0:11:01) Al: That’s the thing and then there’s no (0:11:01) Kevin: You got toys to sell, man! (0:11:03) Al: There’s no filler episodes that are all action all the time So it will be interesting to see where they go because there’s still four seasons to go Just I’ve just finished the first season. So I’ve got four more to go and I’m like I feel like they’re running out of stories by now Although I do believe there is a crossover with the 90s spider-man as well that I’ll need to watch at some point Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I know but that’s my I need to watch that as well right because it’s a crossover (0:11:03) Kevin: The- (0:11:20) Kevin: There is, but that is under the spine. (0:11:31) Kevin: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, I If I assure you it does not matter Well, good luck with that because I’m sure it didn’t matter to the writers or whatever I will I will say like I (0:11:33) Al: I haven’t figured out where it lies in the timeline. (0:11:37) Al: I know it doesn’t matter. I know. I know it doesn’t matter, Kevin, but it matters to me. (0:11:56) Kevin: Was still pretty young when that X-Men first aired so I watched some of it (0:12:00) Al: Yes, in 1992, yes. (0:12:01) Kevin: but Yes, you know the year I was born I might be older than me So I didn’t watch it I Missed the boat a little on that one. I didn’t I watched it but just not like everything right but it’s still very much like many people was very iconic informative in my What I think of the X-Men right like that’s the theme the colors all the looks (0:12:05) Al: I was also quite young. (0:12:31) Kevin: It’s still my favorite beast of all time Yeah, but good stuff good stuff (0:12:40) Al: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:12:41) Al: And then I also watched for the first time Scott Pilgrim versus the World, (0:12:46) Al: the film that is, the live action films. (0:12:46) Kevin: Okay, I have not watched this tell me tell me Wait we’re talking the live-action right? Yes. Yes. Okay, cuz the animated one’s not out yet Yes, okay. Yes, that’s right. Okay Okay, I hear a lot of love for this movie thing (0:12:48) Al: I thought it was really good. (0:12:50) Al: I think it does a good job. (0:12:52) Al: Like, obviously live action. (0:12:53) Al: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:12:55) Al: The animated one, it’s not, it’s not a, yeah, and it’s a series, I believe. (0:12:58) Al: It’s not a film. (0:13:00) Al: But so like. (0:13:02) Al: I think, I think, yeah, so I think a lot of people like it and a lot of people (0:13:10) Al: thought it was fine. (0:13:11) Al: I will say that live action is difficult to do, like, a good kind of comic bookie style film, like most, most live action comic book stuff doesn’t try and be comic bookie, right? (0:13:25) Al: But Scott Pilgrim definitely does. (0:13:29) Al: And I think they did it really well. (0:13:31) Al: I think it works like that. (0:13:32) Al: Like you, it definitely feels like a comic book film. (0:13:35) Al: It’s like, you know how Into the Spider-Verse feels like a comic book film. (0:13:40) Kevin: Yes. (0:13:40) Al: It’s not live action, but it feels comic bookie, whereas all the other ones really just feel like superhero stuff, right? (0:13:40) Kevin: Yes. (0:13:43) Kevin: Yes, yes, I know. (0:13:46) Al: It’s, it, it feels like that. (0:13:48) Al: It feels, it feels like they wanted it to feel like a comic book. (0:13:52) Al: And I think it works really well. (0:13:54) Al: I think there are a few things in the story that feel a bit odd, but that just might be me being a bit weird around it. (0:14:01) Al: I’m not sure whether it’s, because I’ve not, I’ve not read the original comic run of this, right? (0:14:07) Al: So I don’t know whether it tells it some of the bits in it. (0:14:10) Al: In a better way, or whether I’m just kind of being a bit weird with it. I don’t know. (0:14:11) Kevin: Mm-hmm Yeah, okay. All right, that’s cool Yeah, I might watch it just speak for the animated series because the animated series looks very impressive (0:14:15) Al: But I enjoyed it. It was good. (0:14:25) Al: Yes Well, that was the other thing that was the other reason why I was watching it I was like, I know I want to watch this at some point You know what why not now, you know before the animated series comes out would be a good idea (0:14:35) Kevin: Yep, yep, all right, that’s good. (0:14:43) Al: I mean bits and pieces here and there. I’m about to start the newest series of Star Trek Strange. (0:14:56) Al: There’s a lot to watch. What can I say? Have you been watching Ahsoka? Of course, as well. (0:15:01) Al: I’ve been watching Ahsoka, which I’ve been enjoying. And Loki starts this week. (0:15:07) Kevin: Oh, I i’ve got to catch up on stuff before I watch loki like I mean like the required reading. I don’t watch ant man No, I don’t think so either ant man Yes Yes, i’ve watched the original ones. I watch one division watch loki season one. So just ant man Um, but I am going to do it because yeah, I do I do too which really means yeah I just need to watch ant man, um, which uh, but i’m excited for because it looks good. Um (0:15:12) Al: I don’t think there’s a lot of required reading. (0:15:16) Al: Yeah, I’d say Ant-Man, Lokey and Ant-Man, and presumably you’ve watched WandaVision. (0:15:22) Al: Yeah. (0:15:25) Al: I suspect that’s all of it. (0:15:38) Kevin: Owen wilson’s really good in it. And so is uh, (0:15:40) Kevin: Tom loki whatever his name is it’ll it’ll stand yes tom tom loki son. Um (0:15:43) Al: Tom Hiddleston and we’ve got Kehuquan coming in as well and his character looks very fun. (0:15:54) Kevin: Yep. (0:15:54) Kevin: Alright. (0:15:55) Al: Yeah. Awesome. Well, should we talk about some news? (0:15:56) Kevin: I guess so. (0:16:00) Kevin: Hey, you wanna talk about Moneko first though? (0:16:01) Al: No, no, I do not. Let’s talk about some news. (0:16:03) Kevin: Yeah, and what’s our first news item? (0:16:07) Al: Uh, oh yeah. Oh, I hadn’t looked yet. (0:16:13) Al: I wrote all this up like four days ago. So Maneko, there’s some Maneko’s night market news. (0:16:21) Kevin: Yeah. (0:16:23) Al: So the Xbox and PlayStation versions, we’ve got dates for them now. They’re coming out on the 26th of October and the physical Switch and PS5 versions are coming the 27th of October. (0:16:36) Kevin: Uh, is it? I didn’t realize it’s already on, is it on PS5 I assume? (0:16:40) Kevin: Or wait, no, no, sorry. I’m, no, you just said that. (0:16:40) Al: No, no, so that’s the PS. Please, it’s Xbox and- (0:16:43) Al: PlayStation versions, yeah. But I think, I think, I think the PlayStation version is for PS4 and PS5, (0:16:44) Kevin: My mistake. Yes. (0:16:50) Al: but the physical version is just PS5. Well, on Switch, obviously. (0:16:54) Al: So there is a PS4 version of the game, but not physical, if that’s clear. (0:16:59) Kevin: um yeah sure it’s look by the end of october it’s going to be everywhere that’s the main but you can get it on switch or pc (0:17:08) Al: You can. You can. (0:17:10) Al: And we have it covered because you got Switch. (0:17:12) Al: I got it on PC and played it on Steam. (0:17:14) Kevin: Yup, and if that’s not enough physical for you you can get a physical manneco Well, I think you can because I’m clicking on the link and it’s not working. I don’t know why Okay, anyways, um Okay, they’re doing Okay The manneco people are doing a plush (0:17:15) Al: Oh boy. (0:17:20) Al: You can. (0:17:23) Al: Yeah, there’s a new link. (0:17:27) Al: I’ve got a new link here as far as… (0:17:29) Al: Don’t worry, it still exists. (0:17:31) Al: There you go. There’s your new link. (0:17:39) Kevin: Run of manneco. It’s a good-looking plug. It is by the it is by the (0:17:39) Al: Is that good looking plush? It’s really detailed. (0:17:43) Al: Yeah. (0:17:44) Kevin: Company called make ship which I am familiar with this is basically what they do. They do limited runs of plushies you know even They did one for Baron breakfast and I missed it I’m so sad But that’s the that’s a kicker right that it is limited. I think turn it boy had like two plushies through that but anyways So yeah make ship rise of the time recording 20 days when it comes out That’ll probably even more like two weeks left on the campaign (0:17:47) Al: Yeah, they’re doing the ooblets ones as well, I think, and stuff. (0:18:14) Kevin: So check it out if you want. It’s $30 maybe a little pricey But if you love an echo like I love an echo It’s probably worth it because you will probably never ever see any mother physical manneco birch like this again Not yet, but I will so pay day when it gets But yes and minico’s art works really well with plush I think like the the the style (0:18:40) Al: Yeah, I’m just, I’m really impressed with how detailed it is, right? Like you’ve got the eye detail, the hair detail, and the clothing detail, the ear, the backpack, it’s just, it’s all so great. (0:18:44) Kevin: Yeah, got the little mark under the eye, yeah Yeah make ship I have had make ship products before and they are quality products and yes the detail is as good as You’d hope or want or the the creators want whatever and it’s a good quality plush a decent size to not one of those tiny little things (0:19:12) Kevin: Okay, so yeah, that’s Minneko (0:19:20) Kevin: So October 20th, roughly? (0:19:22) Al: Yeah, it does actually say that on the page, you don’t have to count it. (0:19:23) Kevin: Yeah, 19th. (0:19:26) Al: If you scroll down a little bit, it shows you the date. It’s got a timeline. (0:19:29) Kevin: um okay well there you go there the look the links on the show notes click on there yeah that’s the only thing right they take forever with these limited run things but understandably so yeah oh yeah you’re oh gosh no no no that’s too close 2024 is a year away no I know I went into lone the home depot the other day and there was all the christmas decor (0:19:30) Al: “Production starts 20th of October. Shipman estimated January 13th.” (0:19:38) Al: That’s not too bad. That’s not too bad. November, December, that’s three months. (0:19:48) Al: Christmas is less than 100 days. (0:19:59) Kevin: before october that’s the norm what what else is you know what else is october (0:20:06) Al: We’ve got, we’ve got Coral Island have announced their PS5 version is coming on the 9th of October. (0:20:14) Al: I will say, you know I love a conspiracy around dates. This is a suspicious date. (0:20:20) Al: This is suspiciously close because the next update for Coral Island is the 1.0 update. (0:20:27) Al: Just saying. Now we don’t know when that’s coming, but all I’m saying is they haven’t said the PS5 (0:20:37) Kevin: once you switch there’s no going back or wait oh they mean for version well either way that still sounds very uh and they have the wean (0:20:52) Kevin: There’s the art right there. It has the merfolk in it. It’s all that looks like a 1.0 or Like a game case cover Is it I don’t know I’m (0:20:59) Al: I mean, I think that’s the same artist they’ve been using for ages, but yeah, yeah, pretty sure I’ve had pretty sure I had that wallpaper on my phone for six months. (0:21:09) Al: Yeah, so we’ll see. We’ll see whether I’m right or wrong. It might be too soon after the most recent update, but they also could have been working on both of them at the same time. We’ll find out in like a week, because that’s like a week away. (0:21:27) Al: Next we have Crater crops have been delayed to the end of the day. (0:21:29) Al: We have so many more to delay. Keep coming with your delays please. (0:21:35) Al: There’s too many games. We still have like 30 games listed that’s coming out this year. Go and delay them please. (0:21:46) Al: Would you mean no? Man alive, Kevin. (0:21:49) Al: That’s all right. It’s all right. You’ve got two weeks till you need to do the Paleo Pines episode. (0:21:49) Kevin: I want, I just want Maneko, nothing else, and I’ll leave you alone, games. (0:21:57) Al: Sundown Survivors, they’ve got their 1.4 update, which they have named “The Final Boss”. (0:22:05) Al: And I think that the update includes “The Final Boss” of the storyline. Just a thought there. (0:22:10) Kevin: What that’s wild (0:22:16) Al: It’s like, what do they call it? Bullet hell? It’s a roguelike type game. (0:22:24) Al: I’m not playing this game. I don’t know. There’s some stuff. There’s some farming, (0:22:25) Kevin: But you have Pokemon. (0:22:31) Al: right? I felt like I needed to include it, but this is… (0:22:34) Al: It’s like three quid as well. It’s very cheap. (0:22:48) Al: Okay, I don’t know what that means. (0:22:52) Al: Or was that shoot him up? Right, got you. Orange season also have an update out. The festival’s season, that is out now, (0:23:01) Al: and it adds a tomato war, the summer festival and the chicken race. (0:23:06) Kevin: These are all good, good words. I like, especially “tomato war.” (0:23:08) Al: Yeah, so it looks like it’s a festival where you’re like trying to hit each other with tomatoes. (0:23:11) Kevin: What does that mean? Oh, oh, you thought- oh. (0:23:18) Al: During the event, you and three other competitors will throw tomatoes at each other, earning points for hits and losing points for getting hit. The one with the highest score when the time is over wins. Don’t worry, all the tomatoes used weren’t apt for consumption anyway. Like it matters, it’s a game. (0:23:34) Al: Oh, there’s a swimming… Oh, wait, swimming? That is the Summer Festival. They just called it different things. They called it Summer Festival at the top and then they called it swimming festival. (0:23:34) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:23:48) Al: Let’s use swim and then there’s the chicken race, which I feel like that’s probably self-explanatory as well. (0:23:50) Kevin: just it looks good though (0:23:54) Al: Also, is that a dino chicken? Look at the colors on that chicken. (0:24:02) Kevin: I don’t… I think it’s the green-ish chicken. I don’t know. (0:24:07) Kevin: Um, there’s a whole bunch of other… (0:24:09) Al: Yes, they have the key one, I think, being that they’ve added control support, so this is good. (0:24:14) Al: Yes, yes, I do. As someone with a Steam Deck, I very much like controller support on Steam Games. (0:24:21) Al: Next, we have another update. Travelers Rest have their drinks and staff update. So… (0:24:31) Kevin: Those sound important to a game where you’re running a tabber. (0:24:35) Al: Yes. Yeah, so customers can order drinks. (0:24:39) Al: You can serve them drinks, and then there’s also… you can employ employees. (0:24:46) Al: They also added seasons to the game. Like, I feel like what was in this game before now, right? (0:24:52) Kevin: You can hire a bouncer. (0:24:53) Kevin: I’m wondering! (0:24:54) Al: They’ve added the guest room system as well. Like, there’s a lot in this update. (0:24:56) Kevin: New beverage aging system was that… (0:25:00) Kevin: There- ooh. (0:25:02) Kevin: That you’d expect in a tavern. (0:25:07) Kevin: A similar game. (0:25:07) Al: To be fair, to be fair, isn’t it? (0:25:09) Al: access. So it’s 0.6.1 update. Right, next we have two Pixellia which we’ve mentioned before but they are now in Kickstarter. Now what I want to do is I want Kevin to go and watch the entirety of this video before we talk about this. (0:25:14) Kevin: It’s a fun idea, just a little more time in the oven and it looks like- (0:25:29) Al: So I will probably cut this out listeners but I want Kevin to go and listen and then tell us what his thoughts. (0:25:29) Kevin: Alright. Alright, here we go. (0:25:32) Kevin: Are you sh- (0:25:34) Kevin: Alright, you don’t want- I can do it live as I’m watching. (0:25:38) Kevin: Alright. (0:25:39) Al: I mean you can do it live if you want but you don’t need to. (0:25:40) Kevin: Alright, based on my true story, is that what it just said? (0:25:45) Kevin: Yup, on my true story. (0:25:48) Kevin: I can live my life how I see fit, okay. (0:25:50) Kevin: Pixelian is a whole awful word. (0:25:53) Kevin: Is this just Pixel Sims? (0:25:53) Al: I know, right? (0:25:58) Al: I mean, I don’t know, I don’t think it’s Sims. (0:26:01) Al: It feels more like Pixel’s Second Life. (0:26:05) Kevin: or that short yeah oh yeah I’ll look at there’s a fashion runway yeah there’s a lot going on here well you can really do anything you can be a band basketball farmer okay you can you can decorate your space yeah okay this is just Sick in life pixel version. (0:26:10) Al: Because like, you are playing, because you’ve got one character that you’re playing. And it’s like, there’s so much going on. (0:26:20) Al: This is the thing, it just keeps going. (0:26:34) Kevin: Um (0:26:35) Kevin: Let’s embrace the thrill what you can rob banks And a hack I saw a binary oh my gosh grand theft auto actual street traffic violations Of course build bonds, what could that mean? (0:26:40) Al: Uh-huh, you can rob banks (0:26:49) Al: Yeah, you know, and then. (0:26:55) Kevin: You can’t go to jail. Yeah, i’m sure there’s I hope that jail system’s innovative Or immersive (0:27:02) Al: Yeah, I don’t know. I wonder if you can break out of it or not. (0:27:05) Al: What isn’t there? What isn’t there in this game? Like when I first saw this, I just thought it would be like another like life sim, standard life sim, but there’s an insane amount in this. (0:27:06) Kevin: Oh, you can you absolutely can oh, well, there’s a nightclub. Can you do crimes at the (0:27:20) Kevin: I mean, it is a life sim, but it’s a lot of life. (0:27:22) Al: Yeah, you can be a boxer. (0:27:24) Kevin: They really, this really is everything. (0:27:28) Kevin: Yup. (0:27:29) Kevin: Fishing, oh, there’s our cottage core. (0:27:31) Al: There’s our farming. (0:27:31) Kevin: Yeah, but who’s gonna, who wants to do that when you can rob banks? (0:27:36) Kevin: What is that? (0:27:37) Kevin: Is that the UN? (0:27:38) Kevin: Look, they have the bank robber right on the cover art. (0:27:40) Al: I think so. (0:27:42) Al: This is absolutely wild. (0:27:44) Kevin: That’s, they know that’s the good one. (0:27:48) Kevin: All right, there you go. (0:27:50) Kevin: They can’t do anything. (0:27:51) Kevin: It is. (0:27:54) Kevin: Wow, and boy, they’re so- (0:28:00) Al: Yeah, it’s not a huge goal. But yeah, still, I mean, you’ve seen ones with small goals not get hit. (0:28:06) Al: So, yeah, it’s going all right. Well, yeah, this is 2Pixellia. 2Pixellia is a pixel art life simulator game set in the charming country of Pixellia. Your journey begins with a life-changing decision to start a new life from scratch, bleh. And as you step off the bus, your choices will determine what that life will become. I wonder how much of that is like actual choice. I wonder if there’s things that you can’t actually do. (0:28:11) Kevin: They really do have politics. (0:28:30) Al: Like, do they build in, like, privilege and stuff like that? (0:28:36) Al: Is it easier for certain people to do certain things? (0:28:36) Kevin: Oh Oh, that would I would applaud them so hard if they did oh my gosh Idol I would would it be fun playing the game. I don’t know but reading it and seeing it happen and the Twitter Tweets that would come out of that. Oh my gosh, that would be the best (0:28:47) Al: I don’t know if that would be fun or not, that’s my only question. (0:28:54) Al: Yeah, it would be great as an art piece, certainly, right? (0:29:06) Kevin: Oh my gosh Okay Yeah, yeah just like the South Park difficulty slider Oh My gosh, okay. Look, you know what? They don’t even have to put gameplay in it But you like just lean into it like you can do anything (0:29:07) Al: But yeah, would that make it a fun game? (0:29:09) Al: I don’t know. (0:29:15) Al: I’m probably going to cut this bit, but like, you know, hard. (0:29:17) Al: More does your black, right? (0:29:18) Al: Yeah. (0:29:35) Kevin: Right in there. They’re added. That’s what they’re saying (0:29:36) Kevin: in their campaign. They’re advertising right. You can do anything and you can have like you could be a boxer You can be a bank robber. You can be a farmer. You can have privilege as a person of color You can do anything Oh my god, I mean there’s politics so the anarchy might Anarchism whatever you want to call it might be in the cards (0:30:06) Kevin: Dismantle the establishment Um, wow, that’s really uh, we’re very big and ambitious. That’s the word ambitious. Um And it looks the trailer looks like a game and with that small of a goal i’m assuming they’re Basically done It’s more game than not (0:30:23) Al: Yeah, so it does say that they’re expecting the final version to be out in May next year, (0:30:31) Al: I believe with the alpha coming out in December. So, I mean, that sounds to me like they, yeah, (0:30:38) Al: they have the features, right? They have the game and the alpha and beta will actually be an alpha and a beta, which is like actually testing the stuff that you’ve done rather than just going, “Hey, here’s a game without the stuff!” Right? You know, it’s like… (0:30:48) Kevin: Yep, does it work cough travelers rest cough No, I know (0:30:53) Al: “Here’s a game that has some stuff!” (0:30:56) Al: Which is… Well, I mean, that’s early on. They’re not calling it an alpha or beta. (0:31:00) Al: I just… I find it really annoying. Anyway, we don’t need to get into this again. (0:31:03) Al: What have I written in it? Yeah. It’s going to be interesting. Interesting to see. (0:31:07) Kevin: Yes, it’s big while yeah, that’s that’s yeah, you can really do anything sailing still an awful name So the there are clouds in the sky the ocean is wet Go ahead go ahead (0:31:10) Al: So, we’re going to talk about Stardew Valley. Let me start off. Let me start this off. (0:31:20) Al: Let me start this off! (0:31:24) Al: Kevin! (0:31:24) Al: So, Concern Date, like just after we recorded the last episode, posted this image on Twitter of, (0:31:33) Al: so have you ever done any Ginger Island stuff in Stardew? That was in the most recent update. (0:31:39) Al: I haven’t either, but I know that on Ginger Island, there’s a bunch of like parrots that you can use to unlock a bunch of stuff. And then, so this is an image of a parrot that is like (0:31:53) Al: JoJo branding, JoJo? JoJo? Is it JoJo? JoJo, sorry, JoJo, the JoJo branding on it. And so I’m like, (0:31:56) Kevin: Jojo, not Jojo. (0:32:01) Al: oh, interesting. Is this like another like JoJo based thing? How does this work? It’s going to be interesting to see what this is, presumably it’s on Ginger Island, or it’s in a new place that we don’t know about, something like that. And then, Concern Date just like posts a list of the features coming up in the next update. (0:32:23) Al: And you’re like, “Oh, okay.” Which includes one of the bullet points is Georgia alternatives to some of the endgame quests. (0:32:32) Al: So what I’m guessing is if you go the Georgia route for the community center, when you go to Ginger Island, all the parrots are Georgia parrots. (0:32:39) Kevin: Yup. (0:32:40) Kevin: Yup. (0:32:44) Kevin: Aw, sick. (0:32:46) Kevin: You’re gonna… (0:32:47) Kevin: Deforest that island and put on a Joja Mart there. (0:32:51) Al: I mean, I actually, I mean, I really enjoy doing the Georgia way of doing things, purely because it’s like, I like being able to just like, be a filthy capitalist, right? And just buy everything, right? Like, I’m just going to make so much money and just buy everything I need, right? Like, that’s fun to do. I obviously, I’ve only done it once, but it was fun to do it when I did it. Like, obviously, I enjoy doing the other way. (0:33:17) Kevin: - Yeah. (0:33:21) Al: But, you know, there’s a lot of my words, right? (0:33:26) Al: Okay, so let me just, let me just, well, let’s just go through this list and see if we have anything to say about them. How does that go? Because this is a lot of stuff coming in the new update. And I feel like, yeah, can we talk about this? Can we talk about this? Because, like, when Concern Date initially announced the 1.6 update, let me actually find the tweet. Because I’m sure and I can find it because he doesn’t tweet very much. (0:33:28) Kevin: Okay. (0:33:33) Kevin: Shock or… (0:33:35) Kevin: Cornsturn Day has a big update. laughs (0:33:49) Kevin: It’s also really short, like two sentences. (0:33:53) Kevin: Update coming, no release date. (0:33:54) Al: Okay, so what he said in his first tweet about 1.6 which was “April of this year” okay? (0:34:06) Al: Five months ago he said “There is going to be a StarJ 1.6 update. (0:34:10) Al: It’s mostly changes for modders, which will make it easier and more powerful to mod, but there is also new game content, albeit much less than 1.5.” (0:34:22) Kevin: This- Look, it is much less for a concerned ape by his scape metrics. (0:34:22) Al: Now look at this list. (0:34:24) Al: We have one new major festival, and two mini festivals. (0:34:36) Kevin: Wow, mini, okay! (0:34:37) Al: Right, so that’s just three festivals, right? (0:34:42) Al: Let’s not list it. (0:34:43) Al: You just added three new festivals in this update. (0:34:45) Al: He has added new late game content which expands on each of the skill areas. (0:34:50) Kevin: There’s a lot of skills in this game, so that’s the… (0:34:51) Al: There’s a lot of skills in this game. (0:34:54) Al: New items and crafting recipes. Sure, fine. We don’t know much about that. One of them looks to be a drink. One of them looks to be another warp totem. One is either golf clubs or a bag of worms. (0:35:04) Al: I don’t know. I can’t tell. Oh, could be. Oh, interesting. Is that… I wonder if that would… (0:35:06) Kevin: Quiver arrow arrow quiver Weapon new weapon I could see that (0:35:14) Al: Well, you can… There is no bow and arrow, isn’t there? There’s just… There’s the… (0:35:18) Al: The… What’s it called? The little… The little… The little kind of… What’s Bart Simpson’s thing? (0:35:19) Kevin: And this last I checked, slingshot. (0:35:23) Al: you know the like slingshot. (0:35:24) Al: Interesting arrow. I wonder how much of this is come from like stuff he’s adding into haunted chocolate here and going actually I want to add that into Stardew Valley. (0:35:33) Kevin: Other way around he’s it just adding haunted chocolates here in the Stardew I made the joke on the slack. It’s to start a 2.0 actually (0:35:34) Al: I mean I actually wouldn’t be surprised if he ended up adding if haunted chocolate here was a DLC yes and then we’ve got like I mean honestly I would not be surprised if haunted chocolate here ends up being DLC for Stardew Valley like we’ll all buy it and we’ll all love it. (0:35:54) Al: A hundred plus new lines of dialogue. (0:35:55) Kevin: Yep. (0:35:55) Kevin: That’s a lot of dialogue. (0:35:58) Al: Georgia alternatives to some of the end game quests. (0:36:01) Al: That’s what we’ve already talked about. (0:36:03) Al: Winter outfits for the villain. (0:36:05) Al: Winter outfits for the villagers. (0:36:07) Al: That’s all of the villagers are getting winter outfits. (0:36:09) Al: Now, one could say they should have already been there. (0:36:12) Al: That’s fair enough. (0:36:13) Al: But like that’s not a small thing to add, right? (0:36:17) Kevin: Sure, yes, right. (0:36:17) Al: Unique clothes for every single villager in the game. (0:36:21) Al: New type of reward for completing billboard accrues. (0:36:24) Al: Adding in support for 8 player multiplayer on PC. (0:36:29) Kevin: Oh nothing nothing big there. It’s just a player multiplayer They only on PC to be clear What is left to fall it’s a new farm that specializes in chocolate actually (0:36:30) Al: Just doubling the number of people that can play the game at once. (0:36:36) Al: A new farm! Another new farm! (0:36:42) Al: I don’t… (0:36:51) Al: I just, like, you could say this was small. (0:36:54) Al: If you want, I think you’re talking nonsense, right? (0:36:57) Kevin: I genuinely believe Concerned Ape thinks this is small. (0:36:58) Al: Like… (0:36:58) Al: Oh, I’m sure he does! (0:37:04) Al: I think he’s talking nonsense though. (0:37:06) Al: Like, this is not a small update. (0:37:08) Al: Yeah. (0:37:08) Kevin: And of course, he has the new secrets and more at the end, meaning there’s who knows what else. (0:37:14) Al: Yep. (0:37:16) Al: Do you know, I think he keeps doing this because it just keeps getting people back into the game because now I want to play stardom. (0:37:17) Kevin: It’s a blank check. (0:37:24) Al: So yeah, there’s a lot of stardom stuff coming. He says there’s no date for 1.6 yet and I believe him. (0:37:29) Kevin: Maybe. I mean, there’s winter outfits for you to celebrate. (0:37:39) Al: Well that’s exactly what’s going to happen right? Well for PC anyway, it’ll take a while for consoles but yeah, that’s going to be like “oh yeah, game’s out now”. (0:37:42) Kevin: Yeah, it’ll just look knowing him. It’s just he’s gonna have a tweet. So it’s out. That’s it Yeah (0:37:50) Al: But yeah, that’s going to be like, “Oh yeah, game’s out now.” (0:37:53) Al: You’re like, “Sorry, what?” (0:37:54) Al: There’ll be somebody who will load up Steam the moment it gets updated, (0:38:01) Al: and Concerned Date won’t have tweeted about it yet. (0:38:03) Al: Someone will be like, “Oh, he’s updated the game,” and then Concerned Date will announce it by retweeting that person’s tweet. It’s like, “Oh man, you don’t have to keep giving us this stuff for free right like I know I know we made a lot of money with stargy (0:38:04) Kevin: Oh, oh, oh, absolutely. (0:38:25) Al: right I know i’m sure he is but I mean you know dude’s working dude’s got to get paid like i’m just i’m sure he is (0:38:25) Kevin: I think he still is. (0:38:36) Kevin: I’m I’m not concerned about that. I’m sure he’s making good money Like you said like you said this every time he does this the new one point whatever number That’s that’s that’s sales. That’s absolutely sales Just you watch to just just you way you will eat (0:38:51) Al: I think I already own the game on everything. I don’t think I can buy it again. (0:38:55) Al: I just can’t decide what to play the game on again. Like, do I just continue on Switch? (0:39:03) Al: Do I play it on Steam Deck? Because the update’s probably going to come to Steam first. (0:39:09) Kevin: I don’t know. Well, I mean, yeah, it’s kind of just the first I don’t know. (0:39:09) Al: How good’s the controller I support on Steam? (0:39:19) Al: It was fine. (0:39:23) Kevin: I would like to see when (0:39:27) Al: Crazy. I’m presuming the new farm is to do with that, right? Like instead of four corners, it’s in eight corners. (0:39:33) Al: It does have full controller support on Steam. He did also say in his Steam update, (0:39:44) Al: which is different from the Tweet, he says, “I have no release date for it yet, but it will release it as soon as it’s ready. The content is pretty close to being finished, but then there will (0:39:59) Kevin: Yeah, because he’s on everything now, that tail end of development is a bit, it’s a, it’s a- (0:40:09) Al: Maybe I need to start soon so that I can actually get done with the 1.5 stuff. (0:40:13) Kevin: There you go, yeah, there you go. (0:40:16) Kevin: Look, okay, you’re debating where, here’s what you do. (0:40:18) Kevin: You have one on Switch, one on Steam Deck, (0:40:21) Kevin: one of them is the Jojo Route, one is not. (0:40:23) Kevin: There you go, problem solved. (0:40:28) Kevin: You know, look at that parrot, (0:40:31) Kevin: it’s on a stand with the J on it. (0:40:34) Kevin: You won’t get that if you don’t do Jojo Route. (0:40:41) Kevin: It’s a self-concerned game, not me! (0:40:45) Al: Also, we’ll see whether 1.7 happens or not. (0:40:48) Kevin: Oh, it… it… like… I… (0:40:49) Al: He’s only mentioned 1.7 once and that was in answer to a question as to whether there would be a 1.7 and he said, “Who knows?” (0:40:59) Kevin: I made- again I made the joke on Slack but this is almost as serious as it is a joke. (0:41:05) Kevin: It will outlive a lot of things. (0:41:08) Kevin: These Stardew updates. (0:41:09) Al: I feel like he said 1.5 was the last one, so he kind of already has failed at stopping. (0:41:11) Kevin: This man cannot stop. He’s just one of those people. (0:41:20) Al: Anyway, right, the other big news that we’ve got to talk about. (0:41:24) Al: Oh, so, Tales of the Shire. (0:41:24) Kevin: Something else that won’t stop, Lord of the Rings! (0:41:31) Al: Now, for some reason, and I think we all know the reason, the answer to that, the reason is money, right? (0:41:36) Kevin: money. (0:41:39) Al: But for some money-related reason, Lord of the Rings is making a cottagecore game based in the Shire. (0:41:49) Al: And that’s how you get the best of your own. (0:41:49) Al: I’m not. (0:41:50) Al: We know at this point. What I will say, what I will say is interesting. Weta Workshop are, (0:41:57) Al: it says to, it’s, what’s the other company? Sorry, I’m just trying to look at this again, (0:42:03) Al: because it, so Private Division, I don’t know who they are, but I know that Weta Workshop made physical props for the films. (0:42:17) Kevin: If you that trailer looks like it was filled not the set like I mean it’s a very short trailer just shows the book basically but like it you can see from that one shot like there’s a lot of love for Lord of the Rings here I am very confident that this will be a very good and Lord of the Rings. (0:42:20) Al: Yeah. (0:42:39) Kevin: Well actually actually I’m thinking about this now it’s all in the shire right like there’s a lot of important. (0:42:45) Al: Yes. (0:42:46) Al: Yes. (0:42:47) Kevin: The Lord of the Rings stuff not in the shire and how much of that is going to leak into here can you romance or on. (0:42:51) Al: Well, I’m presuming some people are coming to visit, right? (0:42:56) Al: No. (0:42:58) Kevin: I. (0:43:01) Al: So, games, the private division have worked on or with Hades. (0:43:12) Al: They worked with Supergiant Games on Hades. (0:43:13) Kevin: Oh. Oh boy. (0:43:16) Al: Ollie Ollie World. (0:43:17) Al: Skateboarding game. It’s very good. (0:43:22) Kevin: Okay, oh That’s a that’s a good one Good heavens these this is the good resume (0:43:24) Al: The Outer Worlds. (0:43:25) Al: Kerbal Space Program Enhanced Edition. (0:43:31) Al: And they’re making Tales of the Shire with Weta Workshop. (0:43:38) Al: Well, the interesting thing is, the point is, Weta Workshop have done Lord of the Rings stuff. (0:43:44) Al: Like they are, they did physically. (0:43:45) Al: This is supposed weird, they made physical, they’re not a game developer. (0:43:50) Al: They are so, so, so there we go. (0:43:51) Kevin: No, but they’re Lord of the Rings people. (0:43:54) Kevin: That’s what private division is for. (0:43:56) Kevin: They’re Lord of the… Yeah. (0:43:58) Kevin: Yeah, to be clear… (0:43:58) Al: Well, so it looks like Private Division are a publisher, not a developer. (0:44:01) Kevin: Oh, well, well, look. (0:44:03) Al: That’s fine. (0:44:04) Al: So they’re not, they are, that is correct. (0:44:05) Kevin: Weta Workshop is from New Zealand, I believe, if I’m not mistaken. (0:44:09) Kevin: Okay, well, New Zealand, I… (0:44:12) Kevin: I say somewhat jokingly, somewhat seriously. (0:44:15) Kevin: There is an appreciable amount of their GDP That is from Lord of the Rings! (0:44:21) Kevin: I am confident this will get the love and attention it deserves. (0:44:21) Al: I’m just, I am just fascinating. (0:44:26) Kevin: And it’s a lot of the rings, man. (0:44:35) Kevin: Well… (0:44:36) Al: Look, this is going to be dangerous, right? Because I love Lord of the Rings and I love Kochiko Games. I’m really worried about this. (0:44:37) Kevin: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. (0:44:44) Kevin: I think the expression of “I just want to be a hobbit” in the last video is… (0:44:51) Kevin: A little shire is a very common sentiment among people in general. (0:45:04) Al: 2024 to PC and console. I don’t think they’ve said (0:45:12) Kevin: I like how we’re excited, we have no idea what it’s gonna be like, like, no! (0:45:14) Al: It doesn’t matter, we know, we know what, like I, I trust that this will be good. (0:45:17) Kevin: Oh, I do too? No, I fully agree, I just, I just think it’s funny, like, that’s how confident we are in this project. (0:45:25) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:45:28) Kevin: That we don’t need any details, we’re gonna get it, and it’s gonna be good, and… (0:45:28) Al: I mean, that trailer looked good. (0:45:33) Kevin: You alright? There you go. (0:45:36) Al: So, yeah. (0:45:37) Al: Hopefully, we’ll find out soon. (0:45:42) Al: I sincerely hope so. (0:45:43) Kevin: can you have second breakfast argue right right okay okay yes yes all right (0:45:48) Al: Oh, shall we talk about Meneko’s Nightmark? (0:45:59) Al: I realised I hadn’t actually written down what things were going to talk about, so I’m just like frantically thinking up things. (0:46:06) Kevin: Well, as always, let’s start with the context of where we’re coming from. (0:46:13) Kevin: As you said earlier, you’re playing on Steam Deck, I’m playing on Switch, I’m interested to hear the comparison there. (0:46:21) Kevin: What are your overall thoughts, opinions? (0:46:25) Al: Yes, I like this game. I have some comments on things I would improve. (0:46:37) Kevin: There are definitely issues… small, like… (0:46:39) Al: Well, small in so much as like, it depends how you define a small. So one of the things I have noticed is that every loading screen is very long. (0:46:53) Kevin: Okay, I okay. Are we just gonna get into this like the bad because like All right. All right. Okay. I was yes loading This is probably the number one big issue loading times are Atrocious like I thought I was wondering if it was just a switch port, but okay, so it’s not okay Okay, I want to My very first thought about this game when I played it (0:46:55) Al: Let’s just go for it. Let’s get the bad out of the way so we can talk about the good, right? Let’s let’s go for it. (0:47:02) Al: Yeah. Yeah. (0:47:09) Al: It is not. It is the same on Steam Deck. (0:47:23) Kevin: So when you started you get the loading screen and it’s like mineko running in the corner but there’s no music or anything and I Genuinely thought my game had frozen as I soon as I’d started cuz the necker stopped moving [laughing] (0:47:28) Al: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there’s something weird in terms of like, there, (0:47:44) Al: cause yeah, there’s some freezes and stuff as well, which sometimes can be a bit stressful. (0:47:46) Kevin: Yep. (0:47:47) Al: We are like, Oh no, have I lost my day? No, I haven’t. I have not lost any data. Um, (0:47:48) Kevin: Ee-eesh. (0:47:49) Kevin: Yeah. (0:47:55) Al: That’s not true, there was one, what happened? (0:47:58) Al: I can’t remember, there was one case where I had to restart and I lost the day, (0:48:01) Al: and I can’t remember what that was. Did I write it in Slack? (0:48:04) Al: Oh yes, no, I remember, I remember, I remember, there’s a button on the controller remapping where you can click it and it deletes all of your mapping so you can’t do anything with the game. (0:48:04) Kevin: I don’t… I mean, yeah… (0:48:08) Kevin: See, okay, my… oh, okay, so… (0:48:11) Kevin: Yeah. (0:48:15) Kevin: Yes. (0:48:19) Al: So if you click that button, which annoyingly the button is labeled default, so I can– (0:48:21) Kevin: Oh my god, are you see… (0:48:28) Al: I kind of thought that would set it to the default, right? (0:48:30) Al: Because I’d changed a few things and I was like, “All right, well, let me reset it to the default.” (0:48:34) Al: But the default is nothing. (0:48:34) Kevin: Ohhh… (0:48:36) Al: But the problem is then, I have no controls. Nothing worked. (0:48:36) Kevin: Ohhh yeah! (0:48:40) Al: So thankfully, it didn’t autosave, right? (0:48:42) Kevin: Yes, witches! (0:

For more info on what is discussed in this epsiode, head to MarketPowerMethod.com Allen: Boom, welcome to another edition of the Options Genius Podcast! Today, as promised, in the last episode, we have an interview, an interview with a fellow named Kevin. And Kevin is one of our beta testers in the Market Power Program, Kevin has done an amazing 266% ROI, since he's joined the program earlier in 2003. So that's not even a whole year worth the results. And that is after fees. So after he took out his commission's after he took out his fees, that's how much money he put in his pocket. Or basically, he left in the account. I don't know what he did with it. But yeah, that's what he kept. All right. That is amazing. I wanted to share this with you, I wanted to get this to you. Because these type of results are uncommon. I think that's an understatement. You know, when you have most people trying to make seven 8% A year from the stock market, even though you know, the market, banks, banks are paying what 4 or 5%. Right now, that's wonderful, that's great. Stock market should be paying more, but nobody out there is getting 266%. So shake cheese, but we are doing it with the market power program, I wanted to share this because I want you to be excited, I want you to be happy for Kevin, I want you to know this type of stuff is available, it's doable, if you have success with trading. So that's like the goal. I mean, the goal shouldn't be 266%. But the goal should be that you have enough money coming in to pay for all your expenses that you could do that from your trading. So you have basically your financial independence, right? And then after that you keep adding more and more money to the accounts or to your savings account or whatever, so that the financial worries that you have in your life melt away and you don't have any financial work. Because the thing is like, hey, oh, I got a speeding ticket. Okay? Well, if you can write a check, to make your problem go away, you don't have a problem. And that's what I really want. That's the type of life I want to have for you. Okay, so the type of problem where he's like, Okay, if I can just write a check and make this problem go away, I don't have a problem, I have a money issue. And the money issue, we want to make it go away through trading, market power is going to be one of those ways this program is coming. It's exciting. It's amazing. I can't speak enough about it. I mean, it's just unbelievable. I haven't I lost sleep. When we first came up with this seriously, I lost sleep for days and days and days. And I just can't believe it. And even now, it's still unbelievable. 54 trades in a row that I have made with this program. I think Kevin, the one that you're going to see in the interview, I think he had one trade that went bad, and he had to adjust it. And so it still worked out. And it's phenomenal. It's amazing. And he's not the only one, I'm not the only one, we have 35 other people that are trading this, in our beta testing program. They're all doing phenomenal. We have case studies, we have screenshots, we have interviews, we have, you know, the emails from them, thanking us and saying how amazing it is. So it's just a matter of time before we can open it up for others join. And unfortunately, you know, we can't let everybody in the whole world join. So whoever gets in to get in, that's wonderful. You only help certain limited amount of people, because we still need to protect it and keep it somewhat secret in the sense so that it doesn't get diluted and it doesn't stop working. So that's the situation here. I'm gonna go ahead and stop talking and let you watch or listen to the interview. And then when market power, makes his official debut and launches to the general list, I will let you know on the podcast. Or if you want to get to know earlier, then you can go to OptionGenius.com and email us or contact us and say hey, I want to be on the notification list. I want to know more about Market Power. I want to know when it comes out. I want to be one of the first How do I get to the top of the line, right? So let's do that. And let's go ahead and let's get into this interview. Matthew: Alright. So today we're joined by Kevin Donegen, and he's a member of our market power program. And I want to thank you today for sharing your experience. And you know how the course has been going for you and the program, and just really appreciate having you. Kevin: You're welcome. Glad to be here. Thanks, sir. Matthew: You're welcome. So, I always ask people, you know, the first question is, how did you find Option Genius? So a lot of people find it by podcast or other means. So how did you find out Option Genius? Kevin: It's been a few years now, because I joined other, you know, the training portion of Option Genius a couple years ago, I think it was late 21. So almost two years now, I guess, you know, it's a good question, how I found Option Genius. I guess. I was exploring Option Trading, you know, on my phones, or searches and option genius. And I looked at a few mean, option, genius came up and I gravitated towards it. I don't know, I think I was just searching for option learning, training and learning kind of stuff and found it and it's been good. So I think I found it just by searching. Matthew: Just by discovery. Kevin: Yeah, research Matthew: Great. So you've been a part of our original market program. Call you guys kind of like the Founding Fathers, you know, you, you went in there and tried everything? And is there anything when you decided to join the program? Were you like, hey, you know, I want to be a part of this program that stuck out to you. Kevin: Boy, when Allen, when you all had that first introductory conference call regarding the program, and shared the historical back testing data about what the program was based on? I mean, that that clinched it right there, that historical back tested data, of, you know, the premise, and the process of the program, and how it looked back tested was just the results are just remarkable. Matthew: Excellent. Did you have any personal expectations before you joined the program, you know, as far as like a percentage goal or just to kind of get consistent? Kevin: I had been trading options, covered calls and in spreads before a little bit, I dabbled in it. So I guess my initial expectation for the program was to pay back my, the cost of the program. First, that was my first goal. And I did it pretty quickly. And by starting out slow, you know, I, you know, I started out real slow just to get the feel for the program. And as I traded more, and you know, the indicator came up, and I made a trade in one and one again, and one again, my confidence, says, Yes, this is real. And then I just started slowly, my trade starts slowly ramped up, and I think I paid for it. And depending on how slow or fast you start, it can be a fast payback. If you start with larger trades, but I think I paid mine back in a few weeks, like 12 weeks or something. Matthew: Wow, that's great. That's like, yeah, it's really important, what you just said, you know, a lot of people, you know, you're excited, and you can see things working. And a lot of times, you know, the human psychology gets involved, and we go too fast, right? You know, so it's, it's really kind of really great that you kind of measure yourself and start slow. So it's really great. For sure. Is there any kind of particular part of the program that you really like? You know, is it some people can say, oh, it's adjustment, or it's, whatever. Is there anything you can pinpoint? Kevin: Yep, the two things come, pop up in my mind, that the online forum of the group and the chats and the sharing of information amongst the market power group, I really enjoy that to get other people's opinion and take on the program in the market and when to trade, not to trade. So I really like that it's an open forum. And it's, it's welcoming, and no one's afraid to say anything. So I really liked that. The second tool I like is the trading log, the market power trading log that you all put together. It's well organized. I've been using that to track all my trades. Matthew: Great. Yeah. I mean, again, you hit on a really great point. I mean, that we have a group of people, you know, some people are just new to options. And you have some people I said in another interview that are looks like they take it to quantum physics. So it's like, you get all this range of knowledge. And it's really kind of, we're all here for the right reason. So it's really kind of great. It's almost like a family, if you will. Kevin: Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. Matthew: How has the support been? I mean, you kind of mentioned a little bit from Option Genius, but more like the people around you. I mean, I think you just alluded to that, that you have a good support system that If you want. Kevin: Oh yeah, whether it be a group member or yourself or Trish or an even Allen, it's been great. The communication has been prompt and, and timely and always answered. So there's always someone to answer a question or what have you. So it's been really good. Matthew: That's great to hear. You know, we really want people to feel involved and not feel left out. I'm, you know, there's nothing worse than feeling like you're alone, you know? Yeah. Kevin: So I don't, I don't feel that way at all.  Matthew: Awesome. Has your trading changed at all? Since you joined the program? Like, as far as I mean, can you talked a little about confidence, or, you know, some people? You know, a big main reason is confidence, I say, but how was it for you? Kevin: So, last year before the program, I had some success, just doing it myself, but then I got burned, and wiped away all my profits. So what I get out of the program is the discipline of the program. And, you know, when you have an indicator day, that's the day to trade no other. So, I'm more disciplined since joining the program. And I'm only trading when there's an indicator day, by and large. So the short answer is, I've gained a lot of discipline after joining the program.  Matthew: That's great to hear. So we're all shoot for that to be consistent, you know, and there's nothing worse than trading and winning than winning, and then giving it all back. I think it's like the, you know, it's the worst thing that can happen, right? Kevin: Anybody that's probably been in options have had that experience at one time or another? Matthew: Sure. So it's almost required. Kevin: Boy, it's a tough learning, but that's okay. Matthew: All right. So, um, how have your results been so far? For you? Kevin: I'm looking at my trading log right now, because I figured you'd ask that. And I've kind of added some features to it myself. But if you're interested in those, we can talk about that. But I've made what about 47 trades? Not counting yesterday. So I work off the two platforms. So I'd make trades in both one as is a smaller account, one's a bigger account. So I may duplicate a given day on two different platforms. But anyway, you know, 47 trades, I think I lost only one. And that was because of me. It wasn't because of the program. And I only lost like 600 bucks. So no big deal. And then I adjusted and made it back. So but that was my fault. And I bought too early in the day, basically. And I put notes out there, which is good. My average number of contracts, I would say is 20. So but you know, I've been up as high as 40 and 10. And 30. Just depends how I'm feeling. You know, like, like, yesterday, I did only 20. I don't know, I I don't know why I just didn't want to do 40. You know, and so long and short. I've made over a minute, I also back out the cost of trades to get a net profit, right? So my net profit is 226%. Matthew: Yeah, that's great. You mean, you're trading at a good amount? You kind of just talked to how a little bit can made me kind of feel how I trade you know, there's some days that, you know, you don't you have like kind of a hunch, you know, you're like, I don't really feel, you know, can be personal. It could be like something like, I just don't feel like trading today. And that's perfectly fine. And what I do love, and I think you'll agree is that some days, you don't have to trade, you know, it's like, you don't have to take every signal. Right? You can, you can wait and there'll be another one coming down the pike, you know? Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. And that's why that's where the discipline comes in. You know, because you just got to be patient because the signal will come. And when it comes, that's your time. Matthew: So yeah, yeah, you kind of take it as a case by case basis. You know, that's great, for sure. Alright, so kind of a fun question. So a lot of people, they have different goals for their profits. And it's nice to good problem to have, you know, you're in your profit, you're making money. Some people do fun things like take vacations, and some people just roll it into their account. So what are your plans? Kevin: So I guess, on articulate or unstated two goals for the program and the profits that I earned from market power. First is to build up my account so I can grow the dollars in My Account for doing this so that I could keep slowly ramping up as I get more and more comfortable. But then I also, the second one is to take some of the profits and have some fun. And like you alluded to, I think maybe before we started the call, but, you know, I went fishing in Colorado, and virtually almost paid for the whole trip, in a day, at least a good portion of VRBO expense. And then, earlier in the year, my wife and I went to Paris, and I was trading when I was over in Paris, and helps pay for that part of the trip. So, you know, Matthew: It's great. I mean, it almost makes your trip more enjoyable. You know, you're over there, you're like, hey, you know, this is cash flow in this right now, you know? Kevin: Exactly. So it's, it's a great feeling. So yeah, two things, take a little profits, have some fun with it, and then keep growing the account. Matthew: Excellent. Excellent. So what would you say to someone that you were there in the original group, and a lot of people have apprehensions about joining programs, you know, whether it's true, we're kind of at a point now, where we've had many, many winners, and if not any losers on the track record, actually no losses on the track record. So it's almost too good to be true. So people are naturally skeptical. What would you say to someone that, you know, there's going to be next group and a group after that, and people join in this program? So what would you say to someone that's kind of on the fence about joining this program? Kevin: Well, if they see any of these interviews from the current market power group, I gotta believe take it from the member, the current members and what they're saying, and their results, trust, the back tested data is real. And ever since we, we joined market power, the program to your point hasn't had a losing trade yet. So it works. I mean, the data speaks for itself, and they can if they're apprehensive, start slow, kind of like what I did and get comfortable with it. And you'll quickly, quickly get more confidence in the program. Matthew: Excellent. Well, wise words, I mean, you know, it's really important, you hit on some really important points that, you know, patients taking your time, and really kind of just trusting yourself. I mean, give it you know, giving something a try and, you know, the worst possible thing that can happen, you know, so that's great. So I really want to thank you for taking the time today. I really appreciate it and you know, sharing your experience, so really great having you on. Kevin: Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you, Matthew. All right. Thank you. Have a great day. You too.

In this episode, Andy chats with Kevin Williams an expert in ChatGPT and A.I. ========== References: www.SprinklerNerd.com/inkworks www.InkWorks.ai ========== Kevin: You know, it's not going to be AI that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: Hello my friends. This is Andy. Welcome to episode 129. Of the Sprinkler Nerd Show, where it's my job to speak with world-class water and technology innovators from all walks of life so that it may inspire you and your business. My guest today is Kevin Williams. Who is Kevin Williams? Kevin has been featured in Inc.Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and even as a Shark Tank business. Before starting his current company, www.inkworks.ai, Kevin was the former operating partner and CEO of www.balls.co. And before that, Kevin was the founder and CEO of Brush Hero, which is the product you may have seen on shark tank. Our conversation today will be focused on AI tools like Chat GPT, and how you can implement these tools in your business. So with that, Kevin, welcome to the show.  Kevin: Thanks so much for having me, Andy.  Andy: I cannot wait to talk about AI and how service businesses, contractors, irrigators, and landscapers can learn a little bit from you, who has spent a lot of time, uh, really becoming an expert in this field. And I think that before we jump into that, I'd like to ask how you got your start in business and as an entrepreneur.  Kevin: It's, it's funny. I actually come from a family of entrepreneurs ever since I was about 10 or 12. My family was traveling all over the country with various business ideas and it was just part of the fabric of my life. Kevin: Sadly, that story doesn't actually end particularly well. So sometimes I, I, I glib about it that I come from a family of failed entrepreneurs because in a period in my adolescence, my parents lost their business, they lost their house. They lost their marriage, like all of this horrible stuff. So young Kevin decides that a good idea is to not be an entrepreneur and instead go be a chemist. Kevin: Well, fates have a way of, uh, of messing with plans like that. Um, I went on the straight and narrow path. I did a bunch of interesting stuff and I ended up at pretty good business school. And in business school, I entered a business plan competition just as a part of a, like an elective entrepreneurship class. Kevin: And I won. And I won a bunch of money that came along with it for seed funding. Um, so I ended up starting my first business having done everything in my power not to be an entrepreneur. I was like, oh heck, here's an opportunity. I'm just going to take a left turn in my life and chase this now. Um, that business didn't necessarily go anywhere, but it introduced me to the angel and venture community in my town in Washington DC and uh I ended up operating businesses for a high net worth, uh, individuals for a bunch of years and my own entrepreneurial journey kicked in again, where I saw that there was just so much waste in a lot of startup companies that people really didn't know how to demonstrate. Kevin: What we marketers would call product market fit, and instead they just dump bucket loads of money into things trying to prove a concept. Uh, and when I saw the rise of social media, I saw an opportunity to rapidly test concepts, um, without necessarily spending a lot of money. And that pivoted into a whole series of businesses where I would either license or buy intellectual property. Kevin: And my dirty little secret was that when a patent was pitched to me, I could go out onto social media and test some concept around that product. I could throw a bunch of traffic at it, see if anybody cared. If people cared about the idea, then I would license the patent and then I would already know that I could get on to first base with the product. Kevin: Was it going to be a home run? Who knows, but I could get on to first base. So that led to the Brush Hero product, which I had licensed. I'd licensed the underlying IP from a gentleman in the UK, um, and several other patents in homewares and kitchenwares. Uh, I sold, um, or I, yeah, I exited Brush Hero in about 2019. Kevin: And, um, then I ended up running, uh, a large international brand. Usually I don't say, but yes, it was Balls. co.  Andy: Fuck it, you can say it on this channel, on this show.  Kevin: Yes, I was a manscaper. Um, so Balls was the largest, uh, manscaping company in Europe. Uh, you can probably already tell I'm not the guy who tells Balls jokes all day. Kevin: So it was, it was pretty fun to dive into a brand like that. British sensibility, really cheeky humor. And, um, our goal was to drive it into, uh, the U S with that sort of humor. Um, the realities of running a UK European based business from the West coast of the U S not so great. A lot of early mornings, a lot of late nights. Kevin: So, mm-hmm. , in part when I saw just the I I, I, I like to think that I immediately saw the opportunities that generative AI would represent when G P T launched in November of last year, and I left and dove feet first into generative AI and practical applications of it. Um, And I've been rooting around for business models in my M. Kevin: O. You know, test some ideas, test a lot of different things, um, to see what might take root. And from there, ink works is one of several different products, projects that I'm working on, um, as well as doing executive coaching and executive coaching oriented around a I capacity development within organizations. Kevin: Because one challenge of all of this Is that coming up with a one size fits all solution just isn't practical. So business leaders need to develop a framework around the way that they think about AI and how they're going to safely lever it in their business. Um, as opposed to just looking for a magic bullet type. Kevin: Platform that they can just buy. That's going to solve all of their problems. Um, that's going to be very interesting to, to, to see how that develops. And it's been fun to, to, to work with other business leaders to try and identify how their particular business, be it, you know, in landscaping or direct consumer or. Kevin: Business to business SAS type stuff. Well, how can they actually deploy this stuff right away to make changes in their business? Because, you know, the, the adage has become. You know, it's not going to be AI that, that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: I love that. So there's a couple takeaways. I'm going to start with the last thing you said, because it reminds me of a great expression that I can't remember who the author is, but I use it all the time. And that is the company that kills you will look nothing like you. So when you said AI may not replace the person, it's going to be a company that knows how to use AI that becomes your competitor. Andy: That's a great example of another company that It looks nothing like you, but could end up killing your business and you were running balls. co and this is not the right time to talk about balls. co, but we don't actually talk about a lot of balls in this industry. We do talk about a lot of nipples though. Andy: There are many different types of nipples in the irrigation industry, believe it or not. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to put that out there inside joke for those that are listening. We don't talk about balls, but we like to talk about nipples, talk about  Kevin: turf.  Andy: And turf. Yep. Totally. You can talk about turf. Andy: There's a lot to, a lot to play with there. Not last week. It's been probably three weeks now. Kevin and I both went to a conference. I would say that's just for shark tank companies, just for those who have. been on Shark Tank, whether it aired or whether it was just taped, because we know that most of the businesses that tape don't actually go to air. Andy: So we were both at the conference, and that's when I was learning about what you were doing in the AI space, because Kevin was actually presenting at the conference. And I thought this would be great, Kevin, to have you come and share some of your Uh, real practical world experience with AI, you know, and how you are coaching people to use it, some of the value that it has, and maybe even some of the best practices or things you should do first, second, third, or even how do you optimize the responses of, let's say, chat GPT versus a beginner that just goes in and asks it a basic question. Andy: So very, very excited, and especially because this industry is tends to lag behind.  Kevin: So first, just to back up, I we were sort of operating on the assumption that everybody knows what this is, and I'm pretty sure everybody has at least heard of it at this point. That is this magic machine that can that you can talk to, and it can it can come up with responses. Kevin: Um, but it is actually a success story. That's it's one of those overnight successes. That's eight years in the making that billions and billions of dollars has been poured into what are called neural networks that allow So Uh, highly abstract patterns to to interact with each other such that the magic machine can output based on a predictive model. Kevin: What might come next from a thought? So that's essentially what it's doing. It's predicting from the sum of the human Internet knowledge. What? The next likely thought can be, and it is absolutely amazing what it can do, but the underlying fundamentals of neural networks have been around for a long time. Kevin: The novelty and what was just completely mind blowing for most of us was the Interaction, the interactive effect. Like if you leave a bunch of wonky people together who are studying neural networks, they know how neural networks work. They don't need this chat functionality. What the chat functionality did is it made it much more accessible for we mere mortals to be able to lever these tools, um, on on even on a basic level, as opposed to going through a whole machine learning type process. Kevin: So These are predictive models. They're taking the sum of human knowledge and they are outputting the next likely. So the first thing to understand about them is that They don't necessarily know or care if anything is particularly accurate. So, this is what you hear about in terms of hallucinations. And hallucinations are just wrong facts. Kevin: Like, the AI is not particularly good with facts. It's very good at expressing A dubious fact in a very convincing way, which should be a giant red flag for most of us who produce any sort of content that particularly in a subject matter that's relatively technical like what you guys are talking about, um, it could easily. Kevin: It could easily just lie to you. So the first thing that I tell people from a, from a mindset perspective is that you need to calibrate what you're doing with the AI based on who you are and what you know, so picture like a Venn diagram, you've got this. One circle, that's the size of my house, that is the sum total of human knowledge. Kevin: And then you have this intersecting circle that's much smaller, which is the sum total of who you are and what you know and what you know about irrigation and, uh, and lawn care and everything else. Right? And the intersection of those two circles is where the power really lies. So If you, the farther you drift away from that, the more likely you are to get into dangerous territory. Kevin: So, I know a lot about digital marketing. I know a lot about business operations and such. That is a core of who I am. But, if I drift away and I start talking with the AI about neuropsychology, I might get interesting results, but I have no way of calibrating whether or not those results are actually useful or, or practical or not. Kevin: I'm just leaving it to the AI. So when you say  Andy: calibrate, what does, what does that mean? What does calibrate mean? So  Kevin: it's you know what you know. So imagine, you know, most of us have have businesses that are large enough that you have developing staff like there. There are other people that are involved in the business and you you take, let's just say a new sales guy and You, The way If you're the senior sales guy or you're the business owner, you might tell the sales guy to go off and do X, Y, and Z. Kevin: And then you're going to look at the output and you're going to, you're going to coach them, you're going to push them towards an output that you know is going to work in because you have this expertise in the knowledge. It's the same as true for the AI. The AI doesn't necessarily know what it's talking about, but if you were to look at the output. Kevin: Your art as a business person and just as an individual is being able to identify the value in that output. And if it's something you don't know anything about, that's going to be really hard to do. So if you're, if you're looking at, at creating something that's entirely new that you don't know anything about, there are ways to use AI that you can do that. Kevin: But it's not as effective as Amplifying things that you already do know. So in a lot of organizations, let's just take a lawyer, for example, like you could you could call a lawyer and say, Hey, I need to set up a trust document and whatever. And right now the M. O. would be that lawyer would probably record the call or take notes on the call. Kevin: They would go to their associate. Their associate would look through their templates about it. Trust. They'd adapt it to Wyoming. They put it back to the senior attorney who would then approve it, edit it, give it red lines, hand it back to the guy or gal and then process it and then finalize it and then send it out because that senior attorney really knows their stuff or you hope they really know their stuff. Kevin: They can do that. That is their art. That is their job. That is their profession. But now you can bypass all of that, that associates job. Not so good for the associate, right? But you could output that document and be able to read it and have it done in 15 seconds, but you can't abdicate your professionalism and your art. Kevin: You can't just trust it. You're going to get 80% of the way there in 15 seconds, but that last 20% of editing and clarifying and redlining, um, you still own that at least at the moment. So. The lawyer knows a lot about law. The business guy has actually read a ton of contracts, right? Like, I've probably read a thousand contracts in my career. Kevin: I'm not a lawyer. I happen to be married to one. But, I... Not a lawyer, but if I need to create a new contract I can actually get 90% of the way there So let's just say 70% of the way there Because I know how contracts are written right and I can read it and I can interpret Okay, this indemnification clause makes sense to me The smart move is to then send it on to the lawyer, but I didn't have to spend the 500 for him to draft the first version. Kevin: I just need to spend the 250 for him to take a pass at it at the other side, because I know enough to be dangerous. Now, if it were to get into case law, statutes, regulations, things like that, it could easily lie to you, and that's out of my realm. Like the lawyer might recognize that that case isn't a real case or that that statute isn't accurate, but dang, if the AI isn't going to be very, very compelling in its, it's sort of its defense of its own facts that it's putting forward, but that's the. Andy: So, so would it be. Would it be safe to say that an attorney who uses Chet GPT, if Chet GPT or the AI can do the 70% as you describe, but because they're the expert in that field, they can review that 30% and get it right. So that if it's lying, they can correct it because they have the expert knowledge in that core business. Kevin: Exactly, exactly. And this is where I like to focus when I'm talking to people about it. There's a lot of water is wet out there. Oh, you can just. Have it write a giant blog post for you. Okay. That's cool. You know, it's cool to watch it do its output. It's like, it's sort of mind blowing if you haven't seen it by all means, totally go sign up and see that because it's really cool, but that doesn't allow you to abdicate from your art and your expertise. Kevin: So, you know, your audience knows a lot about lawn care and it like, like you can have it create a blog post about certain patterns of irrigation and you're going to be able to decide whether or not those are accurate or not. But if you want to reach into topics that you don't know much about, even if they're close to you, you can. Kevin: But you have to have either some sort of validation mechanism such that you can determine whether it's accurate or not, um, or not care, so. Because  Andy: then if somebody who is an expert in that category reads it, they may think, Oh my gosh, what is Kevin talking about here? He doesn't know what he's talking about. Andy: This is not accurate.  Kevin: Exactly. Like imagine, you know, I, as I understand it, that, uh, you know, grass varietals change by different continents and there's expertise in South America and they're, you know, sprinkler nerds in South America and like you pontificating about, you know, Argentine varieties of. Kevin: Bermuda grass, like that person is going to be able to smell a rat because that's their, their expertise. And worse, this is sort of meta as there's an industrial scale opportunity for content production. If all of us. I'm not going to get noble about this, but like if all of us are out there producing bad content, the AIs will be trained on the bad content. Kevin: So there is going to be value. Is that the  Andy: garbage in garbage out analogy? Yes.  Kevin: Garbage in garbage out. And at some point it all reverts to the mean. So from the segment of your audience that is out there and doing direct to consumer type marketing, don't be, don't be tempted to do just. Industrial scale output. Kevin: Your art has to be producing new information from somewhere. But what AI can do is it can make some of that new information really accessible. Like there's a lot of geeky in this sort of field, right? And there's scholarly articles about soil density and all this other stuff. One really cool use of AI is to be able to contextualize something like a scholarly document and make it accessible to people who have expertise that can do something interesting to it. Kevin: So, you know, somebody comes out with a paper from the university of Florida, as far as water absorption rates, whatever it is, and you can then use the AI to simplify that overly complicated document to a way that it falls into that zone of expertise and art. And then you can actually. Add to the corpus of information that's out there on the web in an additive way because that paper was never really going to get found. Kevin: It was somebody's PhD thesis or whatever. But now you Andy can like actually make that accessible in a way that increases the store of human knowledge and from a Strategic perspective, I do suspect that, that, that brands, particularly in the internet who can truly add novel value are going to be rewarded by search engines, by advertising platforms, et cetera, and that those who simply put it out like high volume garbage are going to get severely punished. Kevin: And, and I'm  Andy: thinking that likely the level one knowledge. Which may address the most frequently asked questions about lawn care on the internet will probably be garbage in garbage out and stuff that everybody talks about. I love what you said about finding a scholarly article and what came to my mind is that there actually are scholarly articles from, I believe, University of Florida on, you know, lawn care and let's say soil moisture sensor technology. Andy: And my question would be, number one, Perhaps this would be a great training example for us to do live like, Hey, let's grab a couple articles and use that to produce some really awesome content using AI. And could we do that? You know, could we take an article of a research on soil moisture sensor, not right now about soil moisture sensor technology, real case studies and recreate it in a, in a, in a way that everybody could understand it simplified, but on a deep topic  Kevin: like that. Kevin: So this is, let's walk through the practical example. The example is yes, that would be really cool, right? So first you're going to find the article and then let's just be practical. First, if you're not paying for GPT, pay for it. It's 20 bucks a month and it gives you access to GPT 4, but more importantly, it gives you advanced access to advanced processing. Kevin: So the, the 3. 5 was the first model 4. 0 is where it is now. 4. 0 is roughly 10 times. It's more powerful as far as the level of connections. It's also slower, um, which can be a little bit agonizing in a demo because it writes really slowly. Um, but it allows you to contextualize. These are, these are all terms that are going to be so common in the next few years, but right now we're all kind of bending our heads around it that you have to set context. Kevin: Like, uh, I like this particular example, like you go, you stand at the top of a, of a building at, uh, you know, Times Square, you stand in the middle of Times Square and you say, what should I read? And people are going to have all kinds of opinions. They're going to have like, Oh, you should read the Bible. Kevin: You should read, you know, Tom Clancy. You should read, you know, the, the sprinkler digest of 2022. The Idiot's Guide to Landscaping. But that's because, yes, of course, you know, scintillating reading, right? But that's because nobody knows anything about you. So one of the first keys here is you have to set the context of the conversation such that you're narrowing, you're narrowing what you're after. Kevin: So from a practical perspective in GPT 4, you can start out a conversation by saying, I'm a landscaping expert. Um, I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of lawn care practices using scholarly articles. And it's going to say something like, yay. Next you set the context for the conversation because you could just. Kevin: Continue. And this is where it gets dangerous. Like, let's just chat about lawn care. And you're going to come up with all kinds of interesting stuff. In the back and forth that it's, it's, as you're, you're expanding. It knows who you are. It kind of knows what you're looking for. But now, you want to refine that context further. Kevin: And the way that you do that is by contextualizing something like a scholarly article. And there are tools, they're called plug ins within GPT 4, that allow you to do that. And that's simply by Letting it ingest the PDF, and now this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about the body of the knowledge, of world knowledge about lawn care. Kevin: We now have established minimal context that you have expertise in lawn care, and now specifically what we're going to talk about is this scholarly article. Like, use, oh mighty GPT, use your chat based functionality to make this easy, but this is what we're talking about. So now you've set the context for it. Kevin: And you're going to do something like, let's ask for a summary, um, that would be applicable and interesting information for an audience that is focused in on lawn care science. And it's going to come up with a bunch of ideas. Okay, cool. Now. Let's say, oh, okay, I like idea number three, that, um, you know, I don't know, relative humidity and the impact of, uh, water absorption rates on whatever it is. Kevin: Now let's dive into that, and let's put a marketing hat on. Okay, let's produce content, a blog post about this that, that, that incorporates interesting facts from the scholarly, the scholarly doc, document, and dresses it up with a little bit of marketing speak. Okay, cool. Now, because we're a marketer, we need to put headlines on it. Kevin: So let's come up with 10 possible headlines for this. So now you have 10 possible headlines for the article. Now let's get a little bit wonky because this is a scholarly article. Scholarly articles often come along with data sets. Okay. So you could actually ingest a dataset using the, the, the code interpreter function within GPT and say something completely simple, like some giant dataset, and just say, help me visualize the data in this dataset in a few different ways that would be interesting to my audience, my audience. Kevin: Like you've already defined who your audience is, right? It's another cool part. Like it has permanence. Um, So it's remembering  Andy: what you gave it earlier when you said, you know, my audience is homeowners, you know, interested in black, it, it,  Kevin: it, it stores that. So we've, we all, we all, I'm not going to say the name because it'll trigger, but the S device on a, on an Apple, if I were to say the name and I would say, Hey, what's, what's the weather in park city tomorrow? Kevin: It's going to have an answer. And if I simply said, what's the weather on Saturday? It's going to say, what are you talking about? Because it has no permanence to it at all. You have to start over in that conversation. Permanence in GPT is so cool. So just a practical tip. You have chats. that maintain that context. Kevin: And some of my chats are now hundreds of pages along because I'm chatting through specific business models and it knows that that's what we're talking about. It doesn't need to like remind itself. I can go back months later and bring something up and all that context is set and you get much better results once the context is set. Kevin: So what you've done with that. So if you, if you have a  Andy: thought. Or you have another question, but it's really related to some other things you've already asked that you'll instead of starting a new conversation, if that's what it's called, you'll go back to your other one and add it into the dialogue. Andy: Yep,  Kevin: exactly. Just write, don't even need to be like, do you remember what we're talking about? No, of course it remembers what it's talking about. It's a machine, right? Um, but imagine you've put out that blog post and, um, somebody now in the community has some insightful question and you're like, I don't know what the answer is. Kevin: Dump the question in and say, this was a community conversation. Can you, can, can you come up with some sort of, can you help me answer this question? And it's going to use the context of your chat. The conversation you have, it's going to use the document that's been set as context. And it's going to try and answer that question within that much narrower context, um, than just the wild west of the internet. Kevin: So taking it like just taking it to the logical conclusion again, as a marketer, you need visuals. So now we haven't talked about the visual tools at all. I've been very GPT focused and GPT is not the only language model out there. I just, it currently is the strongest, but. In my opinion, but there will be many, there's no real barriers to this except gazillions of dollars, which people like Mark Zuckerberg have. Kevin: So you're gonna see a lot of different models and this is just, it's going, they're all gonna be out there. So people will choose their poison. Do you know,  top  Andy: of mind what a couple other models are that we could share list in the,  Kevin: so Google Bard is quite powerful, and it's not like Google wasn't working on this. Kevin: They missed a tick. They have business model problems with this that are pretty obvious. You know, they make 160 billion a year off of advertising. And what does advertising mean if. Like you get the answer, it's not so great. So they  Andy: also not perusing the internet and clicking lots of times and visiting lots of pages and getting served. Andy: Lots of visuals. We're  Kevin: in that space, right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's going to be an interesting existential crisis for them. They seem confident about it. So I think they have a plan, but they're constrained. My, my worry is big brands like that get more constrained by reputational impact. We all have heard the stories of the New York times, I think. Kevin: Kevin Roos, um, who like the AI tried to convince him to leave his wife and stuff. Um, like open AI, which is GPT can kind of get away with that with its. I'm a 10 billion startup thing, but Google has to worry about that. So naturally they've limited their model more. So there are all these instructions and there's a term that's, that's, that's. Kevin: It may be permanent, but at the moment, I'm not quite sure it's called a constitution. And it's this idea that there's, there's an operating, we call the, the, the, the, anytime you type something into a LLM, it's a prompt, but there are all these hidden prompts that are behind the scenes. And those hidden prompts are, let  Andy: me catch you right there. Andy: You, you, you mentioned a buzzword that I want to make sure everybody knows you said.  Kevin: Large language model. So a GPT is one of the large language models. Um, Lama from Meta and Facebook is another one. Um, Google has its own that, that underpins BARD. Um, these are all, they've all done the similar thing where they've subsumed. Kevin: The Internet and are making these connections. Um, and then, yeah, that's a GPT is not the generalized term term. It's that it has that has to do with technical language transformation. So GPT is actually a technical term. Yeah. So anytime you put a prompt into these things, that's a set of instructions that the AI is then trying to follow. Kevin: But there's a whole set of hidden prompts behind the scenes that are basically don't be psychotic, like Try not to say like racist stuff. Try not to like incite violence. Like, don't try, don't answer legal questions in a way that could be misleading. Like, it's, it's, it's like this whole giant set of things and, you know, building that constitution into the model, um, the, the, sort of the strength of that constitution ties into, this is slightly wonky, but it ties into the, the, the, how crazy the outputs can be. Kevin: And there's another term in there that's called temperature. So the higher the temperature, the more likely it is to go batshit. That it's going to start making And what does a high  Andy: temperature mean? What,  Kevin: what is that? So it's a, it's like a continuum, like low temperature is cold. Just the facts, man. And stick to the fact Right. Kevin: This is what Okay, I see. High temperature is, we're going to loosen up. That loose that that that neural network and you know, I'm being I'm trying to paraphrase a little bit But like it's gonna loosen up the neural network and allow the network to make kind of wilder connections between things  Andy: Okay, so it's called something that's extremely factual like one plus one is two would that be very very cold  Kevin: not factual So that you got to be super careful like it's pretty okay. Kevin: All right high level of probability that 1 plus 1 is 2, but, but some of these models are very bad at math. Um, because they don't, that's not what they do. They're, they're predicting that one thought follows the golden rule. Okay, we have a lot of information about the golden rule. We, we are really, really comfortable that the golden rule is due unto others, right? Kevin: So that low temperature, it's going to connect this extremely high temperature. It may come up with something like Hmm. Maybe that means something different. Hmm. Let's just like connect things. So it gets creative on its own? It's creative. Don't anthropomorphize, but it's, it's easy to do, but it is, um, it just gets looser in its neural connections and it can be very powerful in terms of being extremely creative. Kevin: There's an example that's, uh, I like that. So a high  Andy: temperature means more creative.  Kevin: Yes. And most of the models by default operate at a relatively low temperature because, That's where the you should leave your life wife and marry me stuff comes in where it starts like It's crazy. Like, don't get me wrong. Kevin: Like, researchers in this space, they anthropomorphize it because it's doing stuff that they don't understand.  Andy: Well, I'm just wondering, um, number one, I'll ask you, and you could answer it now or later, is this, is this regulated? Because if it's high temp and it's super creative, which means it may not be accurate, should there be a disclaimer in the response that must be included if you use the tool? Andy: Because the answer may or may not be correct because it's high temp and where, where do we draw the line? Or is there a line being drawn on telling someone disclosing the use of the tool?  Kevin: So this is where Europe is heading. Europe is heading to a disclosure of AI, and I think we may see something similar. Kevin: To this in the U S at some point, but it's a commons issue. Like that sort of disclosure is only as good as the compliance of the community and the enforcement mechanisms that make that happen. And I have doubts having lived in the digital marketing trends as long as I have that. If there's an edge to be had, people don't have to use these models. Kevin: So that's, we haven't really talked  Andy: about that. And right now I can write a blog post about whatever I want, factual or not. It's up to someone else to actually decide if it's right or not. I don't have to, there's no disclosure I have to put on it currently.  Kevin: And you bury it in your terms anyway, in the bottom of the fine print somewhere. Kevin: Yeah. It's like an affiliate disclosure that, um, it is possible that artificial intelligence was in some way used to construct this particular note, this particular route. Right. So maybe by  Andy: default, someone would have to trust the author, i. e. trust Kevin, trust Andy, trust the author. Then you'll trust the words, but don't trust the words. Andy: All by themselves, unless you trust the source, which is essentially where we're at today anyway.  Kevin: Yep, exactly. Do you trust the source? So authority, you have a lot of authority in this space, because you have such a great community, and you know, there's a lot of energy and output and such. That is why search engines reward you, or I assume reward you for that output. Kevin: Mm hmm. The same will be true in these models that, that, and that's the winners will be those who have a lot of authority and a lot of credibility and that will make it very hard for new entrants to, to batter through. In my opinion, there will always be shenanigans or tactics that are designed to like break through the model and try and get something that to get attention. Kevin: Um, but I think it's going to be a lot harder than it has been with a search engine optimization SEO over the years.  Andy: Let me ask you a quick question. Do you think a service business? Landscape contractor, landscape maintenance, service business, irrigation, you know, they could write an article about, let's say, turf grass management, and they could write that article with the audience being the world, yet that, with the audience being the world, that pool is extremely competitive, which makes me think that they should use That's AI to write something more hyperlocal so that they're found with somebody in their service area, and that's what matters. Andy: It's like lawn care maintenance in Peoria, Illinois, and being the expert there, but not Santa Fe, New Mexico.  Kevin: So I think, would that be the right way to think of it? I think it would. And you and I chatted briefly about Sunday. I mean, that might be a polarizing company in your world, but they do from a sales mechanism. Kevin: They're very, very good about using satellite imagery and sort of loose connections about soil density and soil construction in order to get you into their marketing funnel. And they can do that because they were extremely well funded. And, you know, they, they spent a lot of money trying to figure this out. Kevin: And the fact is there's really nothing right now preventing a Peoria, Illinois provider who knows about soil to be able to output like sort of micro geo content. Based on the information that they have to, to educate the Peoria, Illinois population about the very specific aspects of their soil on a level that someday can never touch because it's just microform. Kevin: They're too  Andy: big, right? Exactly. They're the authority in this particular area based on their experience just in this area, which someone who lives in that area, they would want to hire someone. That knows a thing or two about that specific location.  Kevin: So imagine you have your scholarly article, let's put a few of them in there that are about like how to manage, you know, pH, whatever it is, and then you can put a data set or even even sort of qualitative information. Kevin: Well, I happen to know that Be embarrassed to show you guys my lawn, but the, uh, like I happen to know I'm in a high clay area and like, I don't really know what that means, but like, you, if you feed all of this in, you could come up with a very practical micro guide that's very effective without necessarily having to do the whole lift of, of, of doing the brain dump. Kevin: Of everything, you know, about high clay environments. Um, you could use the AI as your assistant to relatively rapidly output that information. So, I mean, honestly, that's, that's very practical. Like anybody listening to this. If you're that hypothetical Peoria, Illinois, like provider, you should totally do this. Kevin: There's SEO value to that, like as far as having content that, that a local, like long care tips in Peoria, you know, right now you might actually find, if you were to type that in, there are all of the dynamically generated, like SEO articles about there that do that. But that's kind of crap content on the inside. Kevin: If you have authority as somebody who's in that community. Plus, you know, being a professional organization there, plus offering this micro content that's useful to people. You wouldn't have bothered before this. Now you can do it. You can do it this in like a half an hour. Like this is, it's, it's way easier than it, than it would have been. Kevin: And. Is it going to change your business, but is it going to, on the edges, allow you to build out just this, this corpus of credibility that, that in a very SEO sort of way can follow you over the years? Yeah, that's very plausible. Wow, this  Andy: is really hands on. I mean, I think we could, there could be a ton of value in actually doing a live workshop that could be recorded for people to see later, but take similar businesses, i. Andy: e. irrigation, contracting companies that number one, all have to have a website. I'll know exactly the type of work that they do and all know exactly their, who their best customer ideally is create some content, you know, copy pasted onto their blog, you know, know what the traffic is now. And then over. Andy: let's say three, six months, what happens after the end of six months? Could we get a cohort together that becomes like number one ranked in all of their local areas through a quick training demo seminar?  Kevin: There's value in that. I think that'd be  Andy: fun. Wow. Okay. Well, we can't show people actually how to use chat GPT today, but I love how you talked about some of the context because I feel like that's what I've had to learn the most about is not just asking it a simple question, but creating that frame. Andy: Um, and believe it or not, I learned it from my son, who was apparently was taught how to use this in college, and he's a computer science major, and you know, he uses it actually to correct some of his code when it doesn't work, uh, among other things, but he was the one that taught me you got to basically, you know, tell it who it is, what its job is, all those sorts of things to frame it. Andy: Which I had no idea about and I think that a lot of people may use again Just chat GPT and then say, you know, I tried it, but it didn't give me the results. So yeah,  Kevin: I'm done And so let's let's wrap a little bit of truth practical other practical ways that I think that everybody should be using it and cool, it's you know ranging from just dead simple to much more complicated but the Most simple bit is none of us have any excuse to have blank page syndrome again Like, some people are talented content creators. Kevin: A lot of people aren't. I am not. I, I actually can write, but it is an agonizing process for me. I'm not that guy who just can hammer something. And I have blank page syndrome. I sit there, I look at the page, and I kind of play with some words, and I'm like, eh. We  Andy: don't have that. Then your mind starts to hurt, and you'll go, eh, I'll, I'll try it again tomorrow. Andy: And then it's just repeat, repeat, repeat, and you never frickin do it.  Kevin: So now it's like I need to write a letter to X, Y, and Z client, and this is the sort of stuff that it can't contain, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and bam, you've got a draft. And then my art and my effort is spent on revising that draft and personalizing it and putting the me into that draft. Kevin: But I'm already, I've gone from zero to eight, like in 15 seconds or, you know, it's spending a little bit of time. Going back and forth with it working on tone, you know, bringing that down a little bit. So that's one It's just you you don't need blank page syndrome again Like you just start with something and then work them in related is a brainstorming partner is like Trying to isolate good ideas. Kevin: What's a bad omnipotent Personal assistant, um, next to you who knows everything about everything and occasionally lies to you, but they're very enthusiastic about it. So pretty cool to have like this brilliant thing that you can like bounce ideas off of and none of it's perfect, but boy, does it come up with some just interesting things, particularly if you, if it's like come 10 actionable headlines for this topic, like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Kevin: Like, Oh, that's neat. Let's explore this a little bit more. Um, also related. Um, you know, I think a lot of small companies struggle with creative design and creative development and are frankly beholden to a lot of creative like people and agencies out there that charge a lot of money for it. Being able to use this as sort of a creative designer assistant, again, you're not going to get to eight or nine in this case, if you're not already creative, but being able to use it to get to, you know, six, seven, eight, and like maybe script out a video or a piece of content and have an idea of what that's going to take to get it done. Kevin: Oh, you know, what sort of camera angles might I use? And then you walk into the conversation. with that creative partner, and you're way more equipped. You have a good idea of what the storyboard looks like and what it feels like. And then their art is layered on top of that because they don't know your business. Kevin: Like as much as we all love the idea of having a creative agency that knows everything about us, they're busy and they might know something about your business, but you will always know your business better than they will. So if you can kind of skip that phase and get to the, the, the creative production part. Kevin: That can be super, super useful, um, correcting documents, um, or assessing documents rapidly. Just, just being able to absorb information like in your guy's world, like every time a new regulation comes out or if, uh, you know, scholarly articles, if you're a real geek, you know, whatever it is, being able to rapidly ingest that information in a way that, that you just, you have it in your to do list. Kevin: Okay. Like I have family members who love to send me Atlantic articles. Like they're always like. 15 pages long and like, I just can't, I like don't have the bandwidth to read it. So I'll put the article in GPT. I'll summarize it. I'll frame who I am, uh, and like be able to come up with a summary that, uh, that, that, that is appropriate for who I am, that, and then I can decide if I'm going to engage in whatever, wow. Kevin: The first thing  Andy: I think of when you say that is, could we take, let's say the national plumbing code and use it to help understand what the requirements are for irrigators as it relates to the national plumbing code on what you can and can't do and what the laws and regulations are.  Kevin: Theoretically. Yeah, you could. Kevin: Wow. Your art. Don't forget your art. Like, you know, there's a code inspectors, like even you guys probably don't totally know, like, Where that line is, and it would make me a little nervous, um, to do that, but I bet you'd get some pretty meaningful output from it. Um, it would be an interesting test actually. Kevin: And just maybe  Andy: a summary format, like, Hey, can you summarize the national plumbing code and what irrigation companies should know are responsible for, you know, in a  Kevin: summary. So I literally did something like this. It was an OSHA regulation for scissor lift safety. And, um, I put in the OSHA reg and I asked it questions about like, this is not something I was doing as a hobby. Kevin: There's, I have a client who is in this world, just to be clear that I, yeah. You  Andy: weren't just going to rent a, yeah,  Kevin: a lift and go out there. But I was, I was, I was. Clean your windows. About like, you know, I have this situation, like there's a two 20, um, junction right here. Like how far away does the scissor lift need to be? Kevin: And it did an ad, it did a very good job. And I think let's think ahead a little bit. Well, what, like this is all cool. Right. But. Man, this is going to be powerful. Like you imagine that you're an onsite contractor and you've run into X, Y, and Z scenario, like right on your phone, like, Hey, I've run into this. Kevin: You know, there's a T junction of whatever flow rate. And how does this apply to, um, you know, the code of. Peoria, Illinois and flow rates that will yeah, no doubt about it. Right.  Andy: Exactly. So today, uh, we've got something called friction loss, uh, friction loss charts. So those listening likely know what a friction loss chart is. Andy: It'll tell you what the PSI loss is per hundred feet based on a specific flow rate and a specific pipe. And if somebody were out in the field today, it's very hard to have all of those things memorized. It's actually. probably impossible to have them all recalled in your head, but just to be able to ask, ask it, Hey, what's the PSI loss on 2. Andy: 5 inch PVC pipe or a hundred feet. Cause you want to make a change to your design. You need some quick engineering facts.  Kevin: Sounds interesting. That's going to be a thing. It will, it may already be like, that's, this is changing. So, so fast. I mean, I literally was in the middle of the presentation and when Andy and I were in Vegas and a new feature was released in GPT. Kevin: As I refreshed my screen, and I was like, Oh, that's new. Yeah, it's, it's very hard to keep up with. Um, and the possibilities are virtually endless. So, yeah. So what other things? So business businesses, you all have a bunch of customers. You could dump your customer data into it and ask it to visualize it and visualize where the clusters, you know, you have sales staff that are out and they're, they're covering things. Kevin: Um, It's a bit of a lift to do some sort of geographic sales analysis of how effective you're being. But if you dump the data in and you can tell it to visualize, um, where all your customers are, like almost do like word cloud type type. Deals, it'll do that. You can see that, you know, 85022, like you're doing really well in that zip code. Kevin: So kudos to that salesperson. But these other zip codes, you know, they're not, or maybe they have a lot of customers, but revenue is lower. Identify  Andy: opportunities. That was my next thought is I think that. Contractors probably have revenue per customer because that's the account. They may not have profitability per customer because they may not job cost down to that level of detail. Andy: But could you, you know, do what you just said? Say, show me geographically where, you know, a majority of our revenue comes from or where our profit comes from.  Kevin: You absolutely could, and easily, easily you could. Major caveat. You're putting your data out there, and you've got to decide if you care. Um, I have a very practical, uh, attitude about this. Kevin: That... There. The, the LLMs are not in the business of yielding your data, but there is evidence that they are porous at the moment. So if you put highly sensitive data in there that you know, the formula for Coke or something like that, it is possible that the MO model. maybe training itself on that. So if somebody somewhere then asks for the formula for Coke, um, since you've put it in there, it can connect the dots, but we're not talking about,  Andy: so you might not want to disclose the name or the address, but maybe just the zip code. Andy: And that might be good enough. The first column was a zip code.  Kevin: So, but I'm, I'm not too stressed about it. You can turn some of these tracking features off and the training features off. But somebody would have to. Like the data would have to be meaningful, right? That, that, that somebody would be interested in it and like be able to put it together and whatnot. Kevin: So know that and you're going to start to see micro LLMs develop. Um, I don't think in this scale of business so much, but in medium sized businesses, you're going to start to see captive this is just Kevin pontificating, but you're going to start to see captive LLMs such that they are walled. Such that the organization can play with the LLM, but it's not necessarily getting out into the corpus of the world. Andy: I mean, I think it, uh, you're right, is we don't know how the data could be used now, but if, if the engine, if that's what you call it, the, the machine ends up with, if everybody uploads all of their sales data by zip code, then potentially the machine knows where people are spending money on outdoor, you know, services. Andy: So if we had a new, business we wanted to sell into a brand new greenfield market. It's a startup and we could ask it, show me the areas that spend the most on irrigation systems and it could provide that to us. Then we would have a target on how to go sell holiday lights or ponds or landscape lighting or something else, patios. Kevin: Yeah, we could. And it's pulling from all kinds of different data sources as well. So, um, so other practical things. So let's talk about images.  Andy: I was gonna say, um, that's what I wanted to get into next, just briefly, because we are kind of running out of time. But could we talk a little bit about images? Andy: Sure,  Kevin: uh, so In much the same way that the language models can predict what word comes next, image models do the same thing on a pixel level. So they're predicting, based on their neural network, what could actually come out next. And this can allow you to enter prompts, in a similar way as GPT, into a model like MidJourney. Kevin: is, uh, the one that I prefer, but there's also Dolly, uh, stable diffusion. There's a few, a few others that are out there that allow you to visualize things. So here you've done your blog. Um, now you need, uh, an image to go along with the blog. You could go to Getty or one of the other image provider things and find a dude squatting next to a sprinkler. Kevin: Or you could ask the The image generator to come up with, you know, middle aged guy working on a sprinkler in their yard mountains in the background and come up with a plausible image that you can use very, very quickly. That's adapted to what you need on a professional and you and I did  Andy: this. Briefly, like with a five, a five minute, you know, demo. Andy: And I'm, I'm curious, do you still have the copy of that image that we created with  Kevin: AI? Which one that does the discord image? Yeah, I do.  Andy: Yeah. Cause maybe what we could do is if you could email that to me, I will, you know what, I may use it as the cover of this article. I'm not article, but of this podcast, uh, on sprinkler nerds so that you guys can see an example of an AI generated image that Kevin made with me with a couple prompts. Andy: So if we still have it, let's, let's  Kevin: pull it up on my screen. So it's, uh, yeah, cool. Um, so it's, it's like a guy, I think, what's the, what's the prompt? Let me read the prompt. It was, uh, If you're  Andy: listening to this on Apple podcast or Spotify or something to see the cover art, I think you will need to go to this episode on sprinklernerd. Andy: com. That's where you'll see the actual graphic that Kevin's talking about.  Kevin: So the prompt is 30 year old energetic man checking a sprinkler in a deep green lawn. Nikon photorealistic and the trigger there is I'm trying to get it. It knows what a Nikon photorealistic image should look like, so it's not going to be some wild cartoon like, you know, psychedelic type thing. Kevin: It's trying to get it to be as real as possible. And sure enough, there's a guy squatting next to a sprinkler that is pretty well unusable. Now, from a processing perspective, you know, just let's just talk more work a day like you don't know what's going on. I, I've always advised, so I guest lecture on the stuff, um, entrepreneurship in general. Kevin: And I've always told my classes that, you know, you need to know basic Photoshop if you want to be a, a group by base level entrepreneur, because if you're not a creative person, you're going to be beholden to those agencies and it takes a long time, even if you're outsourced. So you're waiting for the student. Kevin: So things like practical things, like I need to remove a background. So, you know, I see Andy's logo behind him. I need, I need a transparency of this logo. Like there's an app for that, that, you know, for basically nothing. You can go to remove BG and it's going to pull out the background or image correction or image resizing. Kevin: And what you're going to see is a lot of these tools are going to be baked into the image processing software, like. Photoshop and Illustrator. Uh, I highly recommend if you're graphically oriented that you check out Adobe Firefly, uh, because it is magic. Like. I want a picture of a deer. Okay, now let's put the deer in an alley. Kevin: Oh, let's make the alley dark and add a sign over this door. And it's just on the fly creating all of this stuff. Which should make any graphic design oriented person tremble in their boots because... The most graphic designers make their, most of their income off of the stupid little stuff. The image correction and things. Kevin: It's not the big creative projects. And you're going to see that's going to be an industry that's going to be highly disrupted as a result of this. But yeah, even  Andy: Canva today is really disruptive, but not nearly what you're talking about. But Canva  Kevin: will implement this stuff too. So you can also do video voiceover. Kevin: I mean, be very afraid about voiceover and deep fake potential. Like we're not going to get political, but the next few years in this country should be very, very interesting. That way it's an election cycle and we're going to see all kinds of crazy stuff. And just to get, you know, philosophical for a second, we're going to end up in a place where you can't trust things and that's not a good place to be at all. Kevin: But just know that you can replicate your own voice in 15 minutes. Like I do a lot of podcasts, my voice is out there. So I had this bit of an epiphany and I called my, you know, 83 year old mother and I said, look, it is entirely possible that somebody could call you with my voice and try and get access to your bank accounts. Kevin: Like. That is actually possible right now and I gave her a safe word, like, you know, if you ever feel weirded out, whether or not it's actually me, um, just ask and, um, you know, we can verify, right? Don't say your safe  Andy: word. Don't say it. Andy: That's a great tip, actually. I think I'll, I'll, uh, with my family, come up with a safe word for all of us in the event that somebody does this. I think that's a really good  Kevin: tip. And it's awful, but people, it's already happening where people will get calls from their kids. I've been kidnapped. You need to send, you know, 10 grand right now. Kevin: Like that is happening. Now the positive side is like you're very soon you're going to have the ability to have these virtual customer service agents that can actually talk to people. Um, it's also terrifying, but. Like that's, let's just stay on the positive, right? That these are, these are, these, we are going to be able to offer such a personalized experience to our customers that we are going to just be able to blow them away. Kevin: Like when you, right now you're busy, you're running around, you got all your crews, you maybe have one person answering your phone, maybe you have nobody answering your phone. The phone can be answered. Chats can be responded to like, this is an whole aspect of practical applications that you, you all should be thinking about that. Kevin: How can I, how can I create a better experience on a creepy experience, but a better experience for my customer using some of these tools to get them to what they need instead of the endless frustrating, like back and forth. So, so  Andy: this might be a good point. Two are a good time for me to mention. I would like to run an experiment. Andy: So if you've made it to the end of the episode here, I would like to run an experiment based on what Kevin just said about personalization. And I think I would like to I'm kind of just spitballing this as as I go. I'd like to put a form on my website. So let's just say I'm going to go with sprinkler. Andy: com forward slash Ink Works, I N K W O R K S. Ink Works. I'm gonna put a form there with a few questions, including your address and when you fill out the form, I'm gonna use one of Kevin's projects, ink works.ai to send you a personalized letter handwritten from me based on the input, personalized based on the inputs that you enter in the form. Andy: How's that  Kevin: sound? That sounds awesome. So, and that's, that's my, and  Andy: I'm going to pay for it. It comes with a fee and that's Kevin's project right now, inkworks. ai. So I'd like to actually test it in real time with you guys listening and, um, you know, give you, give you a taste of what Kevin's  Kevin: working on. So we do, we're using, uh, LLM technology to interpret messages. Kevin: And then we're using pen wielding robots to handwrite notes. So, let's imagine you did a big landscaping project for a customer. Like, you know you should send them a thank you note. Or a Christmas card, or whatever it is. But you never get around to it, because it's, it's, it's time consuming. Um, using Inkworks, you can produce that letter. Kevin: And it comes out handwritten, absolutely unique. Um, I of course have them piled around here. They look like they're written by... And, um, it's remarkable efficacy and very ironic that I'm using multiple layers of AI to create something that's so highly personalized specifically because people are craving that personalization that we're all bombarded by all of this information constantly with emails and SMS and all this stuff and people just ignore it and it's just going to get worse as AI continues to advance. Kevin: Um, so. Ironically that my, one of the first toeholds I have is doing something analog with something amazingly complex.  Andy: So great. So great. Can't wait to run this experiment. Uh, on that note, you know, Kevin does, uh, coach businesses in this field. If you would like to, uh, hire Kevin to, you know, help you with your business, coach your employees, give you tips. Andy: How can somebody reach out to you, Kevin?  Kevin: Yeah, the easiest is, uh, Kevin at www. inkworks. ai. Um. Or I'm relatively easy to find on, on LinkedIn. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm out there.  Andy: Very cool. Very cool. And hopefully we can maybe find a time to do a little online training as well. And again, visit sprinkler. com forward slash inkworks and let's test out Kevin's software. Andy: I'm really excited to do that. And. You know, Kevin, I think that from all the people who I have met that are into AI and use the tool, I don't think I've met someone as knowledgeable as yourself, and I really appreciate you sharing  Kevin: this with us today. Thank you. I'm clearly passionate about it. This is the future, guys. Kevin: Okay,  Andy: well, until our next AI conversation. Thanks so much, Kevin. Have a great one.  

Kevin: Well, hi everyone. Welcome back to another episode of "Coping". Kathy and I are happy to be with you guys today. Kathy: Yes. So last episode, we talked about the ways we process grief stuffers and sharers. Kevin: Yes. And we talked about ways to process our grief rather than just stuff it or just share it. And so in this episode, we're going to go a little bit deeper and talk about one way we can begin to get that grief out, how we can go from dealing with grief to processing grief. And so the question we're going to begin with is, "Kathy, are you a list lover or hater? How do you feel about lists?" Kathy: I love lists, and I can't wait to dive into this. So let's get started. You mentioned that there's a process we can use to begin to actually get the grief out. Can you explain it a little bit more? Kevin: Yeah. So we all have lists that we have running, whether it's grocery lists or to do lists or goals that we have by the end of the year, lists of know, instructions from Ikea, whatever that may be. We have these running lists of things. One example of a list that I have in my new job, I keep a running list of all of the things that I need to do in a particular day or particular week, and I'm constantly adding and subtracting things to that list. What about you? What's one of the lists that you keep? Kathy: Oh, my goodness. I have so many. My funniest lists are related to shopping, like grocery, Christmas, birthday. That running. I have so many random items on there that for this episode, I was looking at my lists, and I have 181. Kevin: Oh, my gosh. Literally 181? Kathy: Yes. Kevin: Oh, my goodness. How is it possible? How is that even possible? How do you keep track of 181 lists? Kathy: I have no idea. But I do have them. Kevin: Well, that's why you have them, right? Because there's so many things to keep track of. Oh, my goodness. That's crazy. I didn't expect that. Well, maybe we don't all keep 180 lists, but we have lists that are running, and we have them for very practical reasons. But there's an aspect of that practicality that will help us in the process of processing grief. The neuroscience tells us that there are two main benefits when it comes to list making. No matter what kind of list you're making, the two main benefits are externalizing and focusing. The benefit of externalizing is to do away with mental juggling. I think we've all been there where we try to keep all of the dates and all of the times and all of the information in our head, and we just find ourselves struggling to keep all of it in our brains. And that's because the neuroscience says most people can only hold about four things in their mind at a time. And I'll be honest, four things sounds like way more than what I can handle. I can do maybe one and possibly two things, but I'm constantly having things fall through the cracks. Kathy: Yeah, that's fascinating. Only four things. I think I'm the opposite. I'm holding 181 things, apparently. But this is very important to understand that if our brain can only hold four things, for those of us who attempt to hold more, we are not succeeding, and we probably are facing other consequences for holding all that information in. Kevin: That's right. And it could be really mentally exhausting to hold all of that stuff in, and you're expending energy by trying to hold on to those things and not really accomplishing them. So it's a waste of energy. In addition to being challenging, it's a waste of energy. But the other benefit of list making is focusing. So keeping the list and making a list helps you to move from one task to another without wasting time. It ultimately makes you like a productivity ninja. If you have a list of things that you have to take care of instead of wasting energy and trying to remember all of those things, you can actually take time to accomplish each of those tasks one by one. Kathy: Yeah, I think that it's so interesting that you're pointing out the focusing. Studies show as I'm helping people with budgets, like in coaching, studies show that if you make a grocery list before you enter the grocery, you're less likely to spend as much money. And so just the five minutes it would take to sit in the car before you walk into the store helps you focus. And then, of course, then there are lots of financial benefits, as one example. Kevin: Right. Exactly. So we have these two benefits of list making externalizing and focusing. But it really begins to beg the question, "how will listing help with our losses?" Well, the reality is when we experience grief and loss, our subconscious mind creates a running list of all of our losses. And this list runs deep and wide all the way back to our childhood. Some of those ambiguous losses, our mind retains all of those things. And we talked last week about the stuffers and sharers and their attempt to deal with this grief. And the principle still that applies for this week is the need to seek out practices that promote externalizing and focus missing. And so when we are using the practice of listing, we can begin to externalize our loss and begin focusing on the pain to start processing that loss. When it comes to grief, then externalizing our loss and focusing on our pain will help us to begin to process that loss and help us to move forward. Kathy: How do you recommend our listeners engage in this listing practice for grief? Kevin: Good question. First, I want to say it may feel a little bit awkward at first to create a list as it relates to grief. It won't be as intuitive, but that's kind of the point, right, is to start using that part of your brain that wants to move through the grocery store really quickly and efficiently and budget consciously for your grief. There seems to be a disconnect, but if we can draw a bridge between those two parts of our mind, I think it will help engage our whole mind into our grief and help us to process it, which is really what the struggle is with our grief, is that we don't process it. It's just there. The encouragement then is just to start. And the best way to start is have a blank piece of paper with lines and a pen and something to write with. Or if you're more of an electronic person like I am, pull up notes on your phone and just start making a running list. You can start with the big things, work your way to the small things. You can start with the things that happened today, this week, since the beginning of the year. Just start writing down like basically a catch all list of all of the losses. What will begin to happen is some of those losses will relate to other little losses or there'll be subcategories of losses. You'll have some repeats of losses, but all of that externalizing of that loss will give you the opportunity to look at that list, to hold it in your hand, and to feel that affirmation of. No wonder I'm so tired, no wonder this has been so hard. Look at all that I've been through. And then that focus also gives you a new perspective to start to be more compassionate to yourself and helps you to focus in on where the pain is and where you need to be good to yourself and where you need to reach out for help and support. Kathy: I think from my experience personally, and also doing this with our groups, when we're listing, we start writing down things we didn't even know were lost or things we had forgotten. I know that happened with me. And then drawing some links and connections between losses that I hadn't thought about for decades. So getting it out, the externalizing is super helpful. We had one student say she didn't know that her job loss that happened six years ago was the cause of her depression. It's a simple but very, very effective tool. Kevin: Yeah. And that's what our brain does. Right. Our brain is wired to make connections. And so when we're creating a list like this and we're able to see it tangibly, the brain will start to naturally connect the dots of the losses that we've experienced and where a lot of our pain is coming from. We've talked about the 6th stage of grief before, and that's meaning making. So when we find ourselves in the process of grieving, meaning making is such an important practice that we need to include in the highs and lows of a loss. And we can begin the process of meaning making at any point during our grief experience. If you're able to see the list of losses and your brain's drawing connections about how the loss that you experienced this week is related to a loss you experienced in your childhood or related to the thing that you didn't think was a loss that happened two years ago. The brain can make meaning from that. And that's what the processing work really becomes fruitful and beneficial. Kevin: And so I think what I would like to do to conclude our episode today is to lead you all through a journaling exercise to begin the process of list making. If you're in a place right now where you're able to grab something to write with or you have a device in front of you that you can type on, I want to invite you to open that up, to pull that out and get yourself in the mindset in a space where you can practice some of that journaling right now. So with the piece of paper, with the device in front of you, I want you to just begin with the first thing that comes to mind when you think of grief, when you think of loss. What's that thing that happened to you that feels it's always there? It's the heaviest thing in your backpack. Write that thing down first. Maybe there's more than one thing. Go ahead and start writing down some of the things that come to mind as you continue to write. Think about the things that you may not traditionally think of as losses, but feel like pain points for you. So those difficult conversations that you've had recently, the time that somebody's at something that really hurt you, a time that something happened that made you upset in a way that you didn't expect, start writing down those things too. You think about the different phases of your life, your earliest memories, your childhood, your young adult life, and even just your recent experiences. What are some of those points in time that have made a lasting impression? A mark on you because of a loss, because of an experience, a difficult encounter? Write down those things too. You may be at a point in your journaling where you're getting stuck, and that's okay. You can look over your list and review and see what other thoughts comes to mind. Even if there's something that you're not sure if it should be on the list, just add it. Just write it down. If it keeps coming to your mind, just write it down. If you find yourself free flowing and writing a lot, go ahead and keep on writing until you get to a stopping point. Now that you're at the end and you're looking over your list, why don't you circle those things that feel most heavy right now? I'm only imagining what you've written on your list. Thinking of my own list. And let me be the first to say, my goodness. No wonder you feel the way that you do. No wonder this has been so difficult for you. Look at all that you've been through. So for whatever you may be coping with, we want to extend our blessings to you.

This episode is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.In this episode of the Contrarian Marketing Podcast, we discuss Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels, and the future of Meta, formerly known as Facebook.With TikTok taking headlines at the Mobile Apps Unlocked conference and Meta nowhere to be found, what does this mean for the future of tech companies? Can we really count them out? As Kevin says, "I think you can never ever count a tech company out, especially a tech company with tons of cash."They also delve into* The psychology behind contrarian marketing strategies * How Apple's VR headset might change the game for communication and productivity* Whether WhatsApp channels disrupt conventional brand marketing* If AI can change the playing field in searchJoin Kevin and Eli as they dissect these questions and much more!Transcript[00:00:00] Contrarian Marketing Podcast: Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels, and TikTok at Mobile Apps Unlocked[00:00:00] Kevin: Stop.[00:00:05] Eli: Hi, welcome to another episode of the Contrarian Marketing podcast where we give you ideas you might not be thinking about today.[00:00:11] Eli: We're talking about Apple's VR headset, WhatsApp channels and other news.[00:00:16] Eli: Eli, you just went to an event that is not the Apple WWDC.[00:00:21] Eli: Tell us about it.[00:00:22] Kevin: So I went to an event in Vegas call the Mobile Apps Unlocked conference and they did an interesting thing where they allowed all marketers who are not at agencies to go for free.[00:00:33] Kevin: So I'm not a big fan of paying 1000 $502,500 to go and attend a conference because if anything we've learned from the Pandemic, you could do a lot of learning without going anywhere.[00:00:44] Kevin: I go for the network, but I don't know necessarily if a network is worthwhile.[00:00:48] Kevin: So I don't really want to invest 1000 $502,500 in that conference because I can't go to that many.[00:00:52] Kevin: Like I would certainly do that for most the most awesome conference, but for a conference I've never heard of before or vaguely knew about, not sure I'd do that.[00:01:00] Kevin: But this conference was free for marketers.[00:01:02] Kevin: Obviously I had to pay my own travels in Las Vegas.[00:01:05] Kevin: It's called mobile apps.[00:01:06] Kevin: Unlocked.[00:01:06] Kevin: I think it was 1000 2000.[00:01:08] Eli: People talks about mobile.[00:01:10] Kevin: Of course, a lot of growth marketers there met fascinating people.[00:01:13] Kevin: But TikTok was a headline sponsor and they had dozens of TikTok employees.[00:01:18] Kevin: And they talked about all the things that TikTok does gaming, creative partnerships, a lot of things that go well beyond influencers.[00:01:26] Kevin: Dancing to the latest pop on TikTok videos, but really like how they integrate and how they monetize and how they can partner with creators.[00:01:34] Kevin: But what I felt was thought was fascinating was TikTok was headline sponsor.[00:01:38] Kevin: Facebook was not there.[00:01:40] Kevin: Meta was not there at all as a sponsor, as a booth, as anything, and they didn't even have any employees there.[00:01:47] Kevin: Now I get there are austere times at Meta, they're doing layoffs, maybe they are not out there as much as they used to be, but to not be there at all seemed fascinating to me.[00:01:57] WhatsApp and the future of Meta[00:01:57] Kevin: So we're going to talk today about WhatsApp which is a Meta company.[00:02:02] Kevin: But I think it's interesting that where Facebook is going and how they're going to retrench and how they're going to pivot.[00:02:08] Kevin: I think you can never ever count a tech company out, especially a tech company with tons of cash.[00:02:13] Kevin: Like how many times has Microsoft been counted out or how many times has even IBM been counted out?[00:02:18] Kevin: And then they came out there with Watson and you're like, oh, IBM is cool again.[00:02:21] Kevin: And people are saying maybe Google is behind the times because of chat JBT, lots of cash.[00:02:27] Kevin: So Facebook, certainly the usage of Facebook has been declining.[00:02:32] Kevin: I just saw this quote.[00:02:33] Kevin: I don't know if you watch Ted.[00:02:34] Eli: Lasso, of course, I just watched the last season of the third sorry, the last episode of the third season.[00:02:40] Eli: Yesterday.[00:02:40] Eli: I'm not going to spoil it.[00:02:41] Kevin: No, don't spoil it because I watched it.[00:02:43] Kevin: But we don't want to spoil it for our listeners.[00:02:44] Kevin: But did you see the part where Keeley got in trouble because she had a it wasn't a sex tape but it was just like a tape leak.[00:02:51] Eli: It was pretty close to sex tape.[00:02:53] Kevin: Yeah, close enough.[00:02:54] Kevin: Whatever.[00:02:54] Kevin: It's not real anyways.[00:02:55] Kevin: It's a show.[00:02:56] Kevin: And they told her that she had to put out her apology on the socials and they said you don't need to put it on Facebook because that's just for old people and rapists or something like that.[00:03:04] Eli: Pretty harsh.[00:03:05] Eli: Pretty harsh.[00:03:06] Kevin: That was pretty harsh.[00:03:07] Eli: I'm always a shoestring away from deleting my Facebook account and yet at the same time I am going to say that Meta's total number of users has gone to all time highs and I.[00:03:17] Kevin: Feel like Instagram and WhatsApp, but not through the Blue Facebook.[00:03:22] Eli: Well, not for us.[00:03:23] Eli: And I think even in the US they actually edit more Blue Facebook users.[00:03:27] Eli: But it's not our generation.[00:03:29] Eli: We're not the target audience of Facebook anymore.[00:03:31] Eli: I think it's I don't know about.[00:03:32] Kevin: You, but I am.[00:03:33] Kevin: I'm old.[00:03:34] Eli: Not that old.[00:03:35] Eli: Come on, it's not that bad.[00:03:36] Eli: We're going to talk a bit more about Meta in just a second.[00:03:39] Eli: There is some exciting news, especially for creators and for brands.[00:03:44] Apple Launches $3,500 VR Headset[00:03:44] Eli: But first we got to talk of course about the news of the day, maybe for me and not for Eli, which of course is that Apple has launched a $3,500 VR headset.[00:03:56] Eli: Now I got my own opinion about this, but I know Eli, you are the biggest Apple fan out there, so I'm going to let you speak first.[00:04:03] Kevin: So I used to be very anti Apple.[00:04:06] Kevin: I never purchased an Apple product, ever.[00:04:09] Kevin: I used a MacBook when I had a full time job because it was easier, of course.[00:04:14] Kevin: But when it came to purchasing products, I was never part of the cult of Mac or the cult of Apple.[00:04:19] Kevin: I've always had Android devices.[00:04:21] Kevin: My wife had an Apple device for some time and I didn't provide tech support for it when things happened.[00:04:26] Kevin: But I said if she was on an Android, I was going to be able to help it because I understood it.[00:04:29] Kevin: But I wasn't going to go learn an Apple system.[00:04:31] Kevin: So I've never purchased any Apple products.[00:04:33] Kevin: But I did recently purchase an iPad and this is my first Apple product and it's sucker man.[00:04:39] Kevin: I think it is a slippery slope to an iPhone, which is a slippery slope to maybe a MacBook, which next thing you know we're going to be doing this on a VR headset.[00:04:47] Kevin: So I typically think that a lot of what Apple does is extremely high end tech.[00:04:53] Kevin: It's not necessarily mainstream.[00:04:55] Kevin: That's my first opinion of the VR headset.[00:04:58] Kevin: I think it surprises me how many Apple watches have been sold because again, it's an expensive high end tool that you don't necessarily need if you're just trying to tell the time or get notifications.[00:05:10] Apple VR headset and its future impact[00:05:10] Kevin: Love to hear your thoughts on Apple VR headset and how you think it'll be used, especially at that price tag.[00:05:15] Kevin: I mean that price tag, it almost needs to be used expensed by companies rather than individuals.[00:05:21] Eli: The first thought is who is going to buy that?[00:05:25] Eli: And I think this is fulfilling a couple of purposes.[00:05:30] Eli: One is for Apple to have something out there.[00:05:35] Eli: I do believe that in the future we'll use VR and AR.[00:05:39] Eli: I don't believe that future is that close yet.[00:05:42] Eli: This is a high end consumer product for the richest of the rich, for maybe a few hotels or experiences that might provide this.[00:05:51] Eli: But this is not a yeah, you know, and maybe people said this about the $1,000 iPhone as well, but I don't see this being something that millions of people will buy just yet.[00:06:01] Eli: Maybe in the future when the price comes down and the price will come down.[00:06:04] Eli: The second thought is what's the use case here?[00:06:08] Eli: And it's really only a few use cases.[00:06:10] Eli: One of them is games.[00:06:12] Eli: And I don't think there is a killer game out there yet that you need these glasses for.[00:06:17] Eli: I might be wrong, I'll stand corrected.[00:06:19] Eli: I haven't tried them out yet, but I don't see this killer game yet.[00:06:22] Eli: The other one is sports events where you might be in the middle of a baseball field and that's going to be very attractive to people.[00:06:28] Eli: And then the third one, and that to me is the one that has the most utility and value is the office.[00:06:35] Eli: I think VR and AR is the best way to foster connections when people work remotely and that's where meta ism, is innovating heavily and I think that's their best trot.[00:06:46] Eli: Right.[00:06:47] Eli: I think VR and AR glasses are going to come through a work setting.[00:06:51] Eli: They're going to be a productivity tool to foster connection and to improve the experience you have when you communicate with people.[00:06:57] Eli: So that's kind of the first thought.[00:06:59] Eli: Again, the last thought that I'm going to say, which I think is a bit more contrarian, is typically innovation comes from the bottom up.[00:07:08] Eli: It's cheap and affordable, it comes from startups.[00:07:11] Eli: But I don't think startups are yet at a place to build affordable and good enough VR AR headsets.[00:07:18] Eli: So it has to be Apple.[00:07:20] Eli: And I think Apple actually has the best trot at making this a truly broad customer or consumer success.[00:07:28] Eli: But that time is not yet.[00:07:30] Eli: So I don't think they're going to make money on this in the next five years, but I think they're going to might set themselves up to crush it over the next ten years.[00:07:38] Kevin: Yeah, I think it's fascinating that they're trying this after Google failed.[00:07:41] Kevin: I mean, Google Glass failed is useless.[00:07:43] Kevin: Have you ever tried the google Glass?[00:07:45] Eli: I have not.[00:07:46] Eli: But Google is not a good hardware company.[00:07:49] Eli: They're not a consumer hardware company.[00:07:50] Eli: So this was a mood shot, and Apple has tons of experience in selling to consumers.[00:07:56] Kevin: Okay.[00:07:57] Kevin: And now Facebook tried, but Oculus is not saving Facebook as a company.[00:08:01] Kevin: So it's just interesting that Apple is trying this when there have been some notable failures.[00:08:08] Kevin: Oculus was not driven towards the business market, so maybe, maybe that's different.[00:08:14] Kevin: But again, $3,500 for a remote work tool when all of a sudden apple included companies are requiring that their employees come back to the office.[00:08:24] Kevin: Kind of interesting.[00:08:25] Kevin: It is.[00:08:26] Eli: I heard that the quality must be amazing.[00:08:28] Eli: It must be absolutely outstanding.[00:08:30] Eli: Again, I haven't tried it out yet, so I'm going to reserve final judgment, but those are the early thoughts you already started.[00:08:35] WhatsApp Channels: A New Way for Brands and Creators to Connect with Users[00:08:35] Eli: We mentioned Meta twice in this conversation.[00:08:37] Eli: Once with the TikTok event you went to, and the other time the Metaverse and all the hardware that they built with Oculus.[00:08:45] Eli: Now there's a new interesting development from the Meta side, which is on WhatsApp, and that is WhatsApp channels.[00:08:53] Eli: So in essence, WhatsApp channels are simply channels you can follow.[00:08:57] Eli: They're going to be interesting for brands and creators to basically broadcast their content.[00:09:01] Eli: And I think that could be an interesting channel for brands moving forward.[00:09:06] Eli: First of all, because WhatsApp has very broad adoption, I have to fact check myself and look at the latest numbers, but I think they're not too far away from a billion people.[00:09:15] Eli: And there are not that many channels out there.[00:09:19] Eli: We recently spoke about innovative marketing channels.[00:09:21] Eli: You're going to find the episode in the show notes, but there aren't that many channels out there that aren't super crowded.[00:09:26] Eli: And this seems to be more of a channel where you can select the content you get, but it is similar to an email where you get the content straight to your inbox, or in this case, straight to your WhatsApp phone.[00:09:38] Eli: So I'm bullish while there's not a lot of information out there, got to keep an eye on this one.[00:09:44] Kevin: Yeah, I think.[00:09:45] Kevin: WhatsApp is an underutilized asset for Meta?[00:09:49] Kevin: For Facebook?[00:09:50] Kevin: They bought it for 19 billion.[00:09:51] Kevin: I think it was 19 billion and everyone thought it was insane, but it was an amazing purchase.[00:09:56] Kevin: And they've really grown that platform.[00:09:59] Kevin: But the reason I say it's underutilized is because they're not monetizing it at all.[00:10:05] Kevin: They've tried to put ads, I think in India, maybe they injected ads, but they're not monetizing it directly.[00:10:11] Kevin: And there are a lot of different uses of it where they could inject themselves more into some sort of monetization strategy, but they're not at all.[00:10:19] Kevin: And then one thing that is interesting about the one way they are using it, of course, is backlash.[00:10:24] Kevin: But again, people are using the people that use Blue, Facebook.[00:10:27] Kevin: So when they log into the regular Facebook app and they're people you may what do they call people you may know, or people you should know or people you should connect with or whatever it is you get freaked out by who shows up.[00:10:39] Kevin: They're like, oh, that's my ex boss, or that's my ex girlfriend, or that's the person that tried to kill me, or something like that.[00:10:45] Kevin: That's actually feeding off the context that you've uploaded through WhatsApp.[00:10:50] Kevin: That's the way they're using it.[00:10:51] Kevin: And it's helping, in theory, build that social graph in Facebook and maybe in Instagram too, but otherwise they're not directly monetizing.[00:10:59] Kevin: So it's great to see an innovation within WhatsApp that allows them to do it.[00:11:03] Kevin: There are things within WhatsApp, like there are businesses that post statuses.[00:11:06] Kevin: They post the sales and you follow our business, here's our sale.[00:11:10] Kevin: Facebook is not injecting themselves into that process at all and trying to help promote that status, helping to gather followers for that status.[00:11:18] Kevin: There's so many things they could do.[00:11:19] Kevin: So it's great to see Facebook investing in there.[00:11:22] Kevin: And like we said earlier, don't count them out.[00:11:25] Kevin: They've got lots of cash, they've got a huge network between all of their different platforms.[00:11:29] Kevin: They have many, many billions of users.[00:11:31] Kevin: So lots of potential there.[00:11:33] Eli: Yeah, thanks for fact checking me here.[00:11:35] Eli: I just want to correct myself.[00:11:37] Eli: I said they're close to a billion users.[00:11:39] Eli: Actually.[00:11:39] Eli: They actually have over 2 billion users.[00:11:41] Eli: So massive channel, I'll be the first one to start broadcasting there because I'm hungry for a new channel where I can be early and where I can establish a a presence.[00:11:52] Eli: The thing that I'm going to be most curious about is the discovery aspect.[00:11:56] Eli: So how are people going to find new creators and brands to follow?[00:11:59] Eli: Because that will be its own little optimization game.[00:12:02] Eli: Call it WhatsApp SEO or maybe don't.[00:12:04] Kevin: Well, one of the things I love about Facebook is the ability to market and to use interest targeting.[00:12:11] Kevin: So I would love if they could plug that into WhatsApp.[00:12:14] Kevin: And you can get more followers for your channel.[00:12:16] Kevin: You can get more people to see your channel, or more people to see your statuses or add to your groups and do all that with just Facebook marketing.[00:12:23] Kevin: And I think that's great.[00:12:25] Kevin: Facebook is the number one channel for doing interest targeting because they've got so much information, except with the usage declining, it's harder and harder to target people.[00:12:35] Kevin: Again, like we said earlier, I don't log into Facebook that often.[00:12:38] Kevin: I don't use instagram.[00:12:39] Kevin: So yes, Facebook has my data.[00:12:42] Kevin: You can in theory target me, but I'm not seeing those ads if I'm not on Facebook.[00:12:45] Kevin: Facebook does actually have other ad or other ways of showing ads, and they have partnerships with apps, but it's far more limited.[00:12:53] Kevin: If you don't have those apps, you don't have those gains.[00:12:55] Kevin: But again, if they can get you on Facebook, they have almost everyone on WhatsApp they can get you on Instagram, then they can target you and maybe they'll revive Oculus now that Apple showed them there's potential there.[00:13:06] Kevin: And they can inject ads into Oculus too.[00:13:09] Kevin: And then you can have an immersive experience with an advertiser speaking about ads and broadcasting.[00:13:15] Missing the boat: GameStop and CNN's failed attempts to adapt[00:13:15] Eli: CNN just fired their CEO and there is another company who also fired their CEO, and that is GameStop.[00:13:22] Eli: And there are interesting similarities between both of them.[00:13:25] Eli: They both kind of missed the boats, but from different ends of the spectrum.[00:13:29] Eli: So GameStop, they tried too much contrarian stuff.[00:13:35] Eli: They tried to save their fading or eroding business with a crypto platform or a blockchain platform that went up in smokes.[00:13:43] Eli: Business has been dying for years and nobody has really been able to turn it around.[00:13:47] Eli: And then CNN, on the other hand, they've been moving too slow.[00:13:51] Eli: They weren't able to really establish themselves as a streaming platform.[00:13:55] Eli: They wrote off a 300 million US dollar check where they tried CNN Plus as a streaming platform and then overnight pulled the plug from that.[00:14:03] Eli: And now the CEO has to kind of pay the price for not establishing themselves and CNN on the streaming horizon.[00:14:10] Eli: Eli, how have both of these brands missed a boat?[00:14:13] Eli: I mean, from your perspective, what is your opinion?[00:14:16] Kevin: I'm going to be super contrarian here.[00:14:18] Kevin: I think both of these businesses don't need to exist at all.[00:14:21] Kevin: I think they're hanging on to an old vestige of something else that we just don't need.[00:14:26] Kevin: I mean, GameStop is a retail store in a world where many people buy things online.[00:14:31] Kevin: Do you need a GameStop when you can even go to GameStop.com?[00:14:34] Kevin: A Sharper Image, like they went out of business, but sharperimage.com still exists.[00:14:38] Kevin: You can still buy Sharp brand, it still exists as a brand, but you just don't need Sharper Image stores.[00:14:41] Kevin: I think the same with CNN.[00:14:44] Kevin: There's a lot you can say around the politics of CNN.[00:14:47] Kevin: I think they thrived on Trump.[00:14:49] Kevin: You wanted that narrative of anti Trump a couple of years ago already, that Trump has not been president.[00:14:55] Kevin: Now, is there a need for media?[00:14:58] Kevin: Is there a need for 24 hours media that you're going to watch and that's profitable now?[00:15:03] Kevin: I won't argue against the need for media in general.[00:15:05] Kevin: You're not going to have TikTok influencers and Twitter thought leaders and LinkedIn influencers flying to the interesting places in the world and riding in tanks alongside the Ukrainian army.[00:15:16] Kevin: That's not going to happen.[00:15:18] Kevin: You need the media.[00:15:19] Kevin: You need a funded, official, accredited, organized media to do that.[00:15:25] Kevin: So media should exist.[00:15:26] Kevin: But do you need to watch it 24 hours?[00:15:28] Kevin: Do you need a talk show to digest the latest thing that maybe happened in politics, when you can sit on Twitter and digest it just the same while you're multitasking, while you're supposed to be at work, you don't need to watch that online or on TV.[00:15:41] Kevin: Even worse, do you even need to watch it streaming?[00:15:44] Kevin: Do you want to catch up on the latest argument between two talking heads, five talking heads, or however many talking heads they have, when again, you could just go on Twitter and participate in it.[00:15:54] Kevin: So I think that CNN is they've been around for a very long time.[00:15:58] Kevin: They popularized the idea of 24 hours media when there was no 24 hours media.[00:16:03] Kevin: And I think now do you really need 24 hours media?[00:16:06] Kevin: So maybe that's what CNN struggling with.[00:16:08] Kevin: Is it's an entertainment platform?[00:16:11] Kevin: We had an episode on streaming.[00:16:13] Kevin: Look at what HBO did.[00:16:14] Kevin: HBO merged into Max and I just got a notification.[00:16:18] Kevin: Do you have Xfinity or what do you have for Internet?[00:16:20] Eli: There xfinity.[00:16:21] Kevin: Yeah.[00:16:22] Kevin: Okay, so did you get an email from Xfinity saying they're pulling peacock out of Xfinity?[00:16:27] Eli: No, but what is peacock again?[00:16:29] Kevin: Exactly.[00:16:30] Kevin: So there's a million streaming platforms.[00:16:31] Kevin: I got an email this morning saying, sorry to tell you, but you no longer get peacock for free.[00:16:36] Kevin: There's a good reminder that I even had peacock for free from Xfinity because they're both owned by NBC, owned by GE.[00:16:41] Kevin: I think it's a struggle, like all these streaming platforms, netflix, crackdown on, password sharing.[00:16:46] Kevin: So do you need a CNN subscription?[00:16:48] Kevin: Is there even a reason that you need to watch or even pay for a CNN streaming subscription?[00:16:54] Kevin: So I think that bigger question is, should they exist?[00:16:57] Eli: It depends on the content.[00:16:58] Eli: They had.[00:16:59] Eli: For example, one show with Scott Galloway, and I would have loved to pay for that because the guy is genius.[00:17:06] Eli: However, I think there's going to be consolidation at some point where all these streaming networks are going to be facilitated by YouTube, TV or someone else.[00:17:14] Eli: I don't think all of these are going to survive and people are not going to pay for all of them, at least not constantly.[00:17:20] Eli: You might pay for a show for a while and then you got to cancel your subscription again.[00:17:24] Eli: So that's going to be challenging.[00:17:26] Breaking News and Dopamine Addiction[00:17:26] Eli: But what's interesting, and one thing that I want to highlight is how breaking news and this kind of news real where you constantly have news and then a few ads in between.[00:17:36] Eli: There was the original dopamine factory before Twitter came out, before these social platforms come out.[00:17:43] Eli: And I'm just tired, man.[00:17:46] Eli: I'm tired out of the constant dopamine cycles.[00:17:49] Eli: I'm tired of Twitter, I'm tired of endless scroll.[00:17:53] Eli: And breaking news to me is just endless scroll once the news broke their old news.[00:17:58] Eli: And so basically, people watching that, I see it, I know people who watch that stuff constantly.[00:18:04] Eli: And are they younger than 80?[00:18:07] Eli: Slightly, but not much.[00:18:09] Eli: That's exactly the point, right?[00:18:11] Eli: That's kind of the dopamine addiction of the older generation and much older generation.[00:18:15] Eli: And so they're going to die out of it.[00:18:18] Eli: They're missing addressing younger audiences and bringing new audiences on board.[00:18:22] Discussing AI-Powered Search and The Future of SEO[00:18:22] Eli: So let's wrap up, speaking about one company that is struggling with something very similar, and that is Google and Alphabet.[00:18:29] Eli: Now, YouTube, to be fair, is incredibly hot with the teens and the young generation.[00:18:34] Eli: But Google is increasingly replaced by other platforms like TikTok.[00:18:39] Eli: I see.[00:18:40] Eli: It my fiance's sister, she's in her early 20s.[00:18:43] Eli: She searches so much more stuff on TikTok.[00:18:45] Eli: And I'm not here to say that TikTok is the SEO killer or the Google killer.[00:18:49] Eli: This platform is struggling to address and keep young audiences as well.[00:18:54] Eli: And they recently launched their search Genera Experience, which is based on AI, which we just recorded a full episode about.[00:19:01] Eli: But Eli, a lot has changed since we recorded that episode a week ago.[00:19:06] Eli: What's your freshest take on this?[00:19:08] Kevin: So I actually think that Google is going to win.[00:19:11] Kevin: I think because they own the platform, they have all the users, they can keep getting people back onto the platform from all their other, from Android, from Gmail, from Sheets and Docs and all the other things that Google does.[00:19:24] Kevin: But I'm very bullish on Google's future.[00:19:26] Kevin: I think what they're doing with Generative AI, it's buggy right now, but it will improve.[00:19:31] Kevin: They launched an update to Bard, which is what's powering Generative Experiences to begin with, which you can now do logic.[00:19:38] Kevin: And in this blog post, which we'll link in the show notes, they explain System One thinking.[00:19:41] Kevin: System Two, which is based on Daniel Kahneman's Nobel Prize winning economics theory, which is System One is your initial emotional response, and System Two is more thought out.[00:19:52] Kevin: So system one, where system two is more logical.[00:19:56] Kevin: So system one is barred.[00:19:58] Kevin: It's just language like it gives you a response, it may or may not be correct.[00:20:01] Kevin: System Two can do logic and that's where Google thrives.[00:20:05] Kevin: So Chat GBT is competing on the system one.[00:20:07] Kevin: It's just a large language model, can give an answer.[00:20:10] Kevin: System Two is where Google's been great at this for the last two decades.[00:20:13] Kevin: And they're doing logic like you can ask it math questions, it's pulling from knowledge graph, it's using the massive superpowers of Google.[00:20:22] Kevin: So I think that's where they win.[00:20:24] Kevin: I think there's no competitor right now that's as good at both of those as Google.[00:20:28] Kevin: It as long as they don't lose market share.[00:20:30] Kevin: I do think Google wins, even with their buggy product.[00:20:33] Eli: I think nobody can be Google and Search.[00:20:36] Eli: I much more think that other companies are going to try to fragment search and kind of break it apart.[00:20:42] Eli: For example, Microsoft.[00:20:44] Eli: I've changed my opinion.[00:20:45] Eli: I don't think they're trying to win with Bing.[00:20:47] Eli: I think they might have a chance to win with Chat GPT, which is a completely different experience that now also features Bing search results, or they're just going to bring the whole damn thing into the taskbar at the bottom of your screen.[00:21:00] Eli: They might break it out of the browser and bring it to the operating system level.[00:21:04] Eli: So there's a whole lot of interesting stuff going on with AI search and SGE.[00:21:10] Eli: But I think one of the biggest trends that most people don't have on the radar is that you might just not need the browser anymore.[00:21:16] Eli: It might live natively in an app, or in Google Sheets, or again in your taskbar.[00:21:21] Eli: And so I think the biggest chance for other companies is to change the game.[00:21:25] Eli: Instead of trying to beat Google ad it.[00:21:26] Eli: Google has one search period.[00:21:28] Eli: But the question is now, how can you change the field?[00:21:31] Kevin: How can you change the playing field?[00:21:33] Kevin: Absolutely.[00:21:34] Kevin: And you're right.[00:21:35] Kevin: I don't think anybody's going to be Google.[00:21:37] Kevin: I think the playing field is changing underneath Google, and they're now catching up and changing with it.[00:21:43] Kevin: A recent newsletter, I talked about how this is what Google's always been doing.[00:21:47] Kevin: These are featured snippets.[00:21:48] Kevin: These are knowledge graph.[00:21:50] Kevin: They had LLM to begin with, but they didn't want to release it for two reasons.[00:21:53] Kevin: One, innovator's dilemma, because they would kill their business model, and they're definitely hurting their ads for the people that are in the beta.[00:22:00] Kevin: And the second reason is that it's risky.[00:22:02] Kevin: I mean, when it comes to Knowledge Graph, most of knowledge Graph is correct.[00:22:06] Kevin: I know, like, you search certain people, like one search, I think Rand Fishkin, there was a picture of Neil Patel that was based on knowledge Graph is broken.[00:22:13] Kevin: But for the most part, knowledge Graph is accurate.[00:22:15] Kevin: It pulls off a structured data.[00:22:17] Kevin: LLM is not LLM can say offensive, wrong things.[00:22:21] Kevin: Like it can give you the wrong advice and you can follow and do serious harm to yourself.[00:22:26] Kevin: So they can't control it because they don't know what's out there.[00:22:27] Kevin: So I get why they didn't release it, but now that they are releasing it and they are working with it, I think they will win.[00:22:34] Eli: We're green too much, Eli.[00:22:35] Eli: We got to change that.[00:22:36] Eli: But one area or kind of one place?[00:22:39] Kevin: You're wrong.[00:22:39] Kevin: You're just wrong.[00:22:42] Eli: Do better now.[00:22:43] Eli: So much better.[00:22:44] Dealing with disagreements and building strong business partnerships[00:22:44] Eli: One area where we're not agreeing all the time, or where we disagree more, is our new Slack Group.[00:22:48] Eli: Eli, you want to talk about that secretly?[00:22:51] Kevin: Not secretly.[00:22:52] Kevin: We quietly discussed this a couple of weeks ago in an episode.[00:22:56] Kevin: We want to launch a Slack Group that would help consultants become better consultants.[00:23:00] Kevin: We have the slack group.[00:23:01] Kevin: We're going to put up a link where you can apply to be a part of this.[00:23:04] Kevin: We want to make sure it adds as much value to everyone that is in the Slack Group, and of course ourselves too, that we just want to have a high caliber of the best consultants out there.[00:23:12] Kevin: We have not yet defined what the cutoff will be, but this will be for really, the best consultants.[00:23:19] Kevin: And just to give a sneak preview to an upcoming podcast, the greatest of all time, the Goat of consulting.[00:23:26] Kevin: Alan Weiss, who published, I think, six best selling books on consulting, the Million Dollar Consulting or Consultants book, which is the first one he came out with in the late eighty s I learned everything from and he's had six updates to that book.[00:23:38] Kevin: So we just interviewed him for a podcast.[00:23:41] Kevin: This is our very first interview ever.[00:23:43] Kevin: So if you're not subscribed and you're just listening to this podcast for the first time, this one's coming.[00:23:47] Kevin: This is going to be the best episode we have.[00:23:49] Eli: Man, I'm still on a high from that conversation.[00:23:52] Eli: There's going to be so much we have to record an episode about that episode, just digesting and commenting on all the nuggets that he got out.[00:23:59] Eli: So, yeah, everyone look forward to this.[00:24:01] Eli: That was an absolutely mind blowing conversation with many things he never mentioned before, many fun stories about tanks and trains and jeopardy.[00:24:13] Eli: It's going to be a wild one.[00:24:14] Eli: So, yeah, Eli, this is a wrap.[00:24:16] Eli: Looking forward to talk to you again next week.[00:24:17] Kevin: Thanks, John.[00:24:18] Kevin and Eli Discuss Contrarian Marketing Strategies[00:24:18] Eli: And now it's your turn.[00:24:19] Eli: Head over to Contrarianmarketingpodcast.com and subscribe to the free weekly newsletter to get a summary of today's episode, key takeaways and community content.[00:24:28] Eli: And while you're there, go to today's episode and leave your opinion in the comments.[00:24:32] Eli: We'll feature the best thoughts in the newsletter and on the podcast podcast.[00:24:35] Eli: Also, if you like today's episode, please feel free to leave five stars on Spotify and Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcast.[00:24:41] Eli: As always, thanks so much for tuning in and here next week. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.contrarianmarketingpodcast.com

Kevin: Well, welcome back, everybody, for another episode of Coping. Kathy and are happy to be here with you guys today. Kathy: Yes. So welcome everyone. Last episode, we talked about grief in the four parts of ourselves: our body, our heart, our mind and our spirit. Kevin: That's right. And in our quest for wholeness and reintegration, we begin coping with our loss in one of two main ways. And that's what we want to talk about today. Kathy: That sounds really interesting. I'm really eager to hear more. Let's get started. Kathy: So you mentioned that we often cope with our loss in one of two ways. Can you explain more? Kevin: Yeah. So in my work with families and individuals at end of life, I have begun to realize that there's two main coping strategies when it comes to talking about our grief. There are two types of grievers. The first are the stuffers. The stuffers are those that hold their grief inside. Now, they do this for all sorts of reasons, but some of the reasons I've heard include it's too painful to talk about. I'm afraid if I start, I'm not going to be able to stop talking about it. In my culture, my family, my religion, expressing emotion is frowned upon. And of course, there's those social stigmas like men don't cry or I'm trying to hold it all together and be strong for my family. Kevin: See, the main obstacle for Stuffers, their tendency is to internalize their loss through silence, hoping to digest their pain. In other words, if I hold in my pain. I can hold myself together. And of course, when it comes to grieving, this can be very counterproductive. Kathy: That sounds exactly like me. I know that I always go inward when I'm dealing with anything, but when there's a loss, since my brain is in overdrive, trying to figure out how to cope and find a way to move forward, I am, what you just said, attempting to digest my pain. And manage it. Right. Kevin: You're showing your strength through what you can handle. Kathy: Sure. Kevin: But the challenge with that is that grief needs to be processed. Kathy: So would you say that you're a Stuffer too? Kevin: Oh, that's a good question. Yeah. And actually, I am not a stuffer. I'm the other kind of griever. So the second kind of griever are the sharers. Right. So you're a stuffer, but I'm actually a sharer. So the sharer expresses their grief any chance that they can get. And they do this for all sorts of reasons. But some of the most common reasons or the ones that I've experienced myself or I've heard are “I'm being vulnerable and authentic. That's why I'm talking about my grief”. Or, “I don't want to be superficial. That's why I talk about the hard things”. Or, “I like connecting with people. We should all talk about this stuff more often”. Or, “sharing my story makes me feel less alone.” Kevin: You see, the main obstacle and tendency for sharers is to externalize their loss through story, hoping to diffuse the pain. In other words, if I get my pain out, I can get back to myself. So where you see, the main tendency of stuffers is to utilize silence and hoping that they can digest the pain, it's the sharer who tries to externalize their loss through story, hoping to diffuse the pain. What we need to move away from is the silence or the story. Move away from trying to digest or diffuse and try to rethink about how we can process our grief. Kathy: Right, but what I don't understand the question is what's wrong with sharing your story? Isn't that what the whole goal would be? Kevin: That's a great question. There's nothing wrong with sharing your story, but we all know those people who share the same story over and over and over again, especially as it's related to somebody that they've lost or something that they've lost or a change that's happened in their life. We refer to these people as being "story stuck". I think we've all been there in our lives, though there may be something in our life right now that we're stories stuck in. And what happens is that we're telling the story again and again, feeling the emotions, the highs and lows of the experience, but not processing the underlying pain and the trauma that that story caused in our lives and the identity shift that's come from that loss. Kevin: And so it really requires, whenever you're getting into story of stuckness, it usually requires some type of professional help so that somebody who's trained in processing that story to help really break it down and get you to that meaning making in order to find a way forward through it. Kathy: Okay, so that makes sense. So for the sharers, story stuck is the issue, but for stuffers like me, how do I break my cycle? Is there something that I can work on? Kevin: Yeah, so I think it's really just about building a practice of externalizing that pain, and a few simple ways to do that is through journaling. Oftentimes the stuffers are naturally introverted, and so journaling is a practice that doesn't feel so daunting and overwhelming to talk about your feelings. You get to process through writing. I think also stuffers can practice externalizing that loss through sharing with a trusted friend, inviting them to coffee or a phone call, just to say, hey, I want to share this thing going on with you. I just need you to listen. I'm not asking for advice or for help. I just want to take some time to share with you what's on my heart today. And I'm not even sure exactly what I'm feeling or how I'm doing. Kevin: I just want to tell you what's on my mind and have a space to do that. And I know that you're a safe person who could hold that space with me. So I think whether with a trusted friend or in a journal or if you feel like you've attempted those two things and you're still feeling a little bit stuck or feeling silent, reaching out for some therapeutic help might also be wise as well. Kathy: Wow, that's really helpful. And so just to clarify, what are the two main ways of processing, again? Kevin: The two tendencies of grief really are the stuffing and the sharing. Kathy: Is it a possibility to be a blend of both? Kevin: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. This is actually one of the most common questions that we get when we include this in a grief workshop. There's times in your life that you may be stuffing. There may be other times in your life, other types of losses that you share, and there may even be some spaces in your life that you feel comfortable sharing and other spaces where you decide to stuff. And that's natural. Kathy: That's helpful. And so remind me, what is the practice I can use as a stuffer? Kevin: So as a stuffer, the tendency is to internalize, and so the practice is to externalize. So what you want to try to do is get the story out. And you can do that through journaling, talking with a trusted friend or speaking to a therapist or a counselor, somebody who can walk you through that story. Kathy: And then for sharers like you? Kevin: For folks like me, we must seek ways to focus on our pain rather than the story so that we might begin to process the loss. So Sharers can also utilize journaling, and instead of journaling the story, we can hone in on the pain, hone in on the loss, hone in on the change that's occurring. So what I recommend for Sharers is to move away from narrative journaling and start doing bullet point journaling. And what I would like for Sharers to do in their journaling is to use a list in order to identify the list of losses that have occurred. That's going to help us focus in on the pain behind the story rather than just the narrative that can-- Kathy: Keep us stuck. Kevin: Yeah, exactly. It's going to actually help us feel less stuck because we're moving away from that story of stuckness. Kathy: Well, Kevin, this was all super, super helpful. As we think about the ways that we process our grief, I'm wondering, as we end our conversation, if we could all just pause for a moment and ask themselves this question: are you a Stuffer? Are you a sharer? If you are a Stuffer, what are you currently stuffing right now? If you are a Sharer, what do you need to focus on to process this upcoming week? Kevin: So whatever you may be coping with, blessings to you.

The Myth of the Broke & Broken Black Family (Black Love) - with Kevin and Wanda Turpin   We're celebrating black love on this Valentine's Day! And I'm dispelling the myth that most black families are broke or broken. The truth is there is a resiliency and strength that is foundational to many healthy black marriages and relationships.   Today, I'm joined by one of my pastors, Kevin Turpin, and his wife, Wanda. The Turpins have been married 44 years! Below are some snippets of our conversation as we delve into what they learned from their parents' longstanding marriages, how they overcame communication problems in their own marriage, and what they think their greatest legacy as a family is.   What Did Your Parents Teach You About Love   Dana Che: The fact that both of you guys have both of your parents. I love that because I feel like a lot of the stereotype is that all black people grew up in single parent homes and no black people grew up with their fathers. And both of you are living witnesses of the opposite,. You both grew up in families that were intact. Not perfect, I'm sure, but healthy.   Wanda: And we even grew up with our grandparents being married, that probably also, Dana, was a benefit to our marriage. I'm sure had our parents had some tough times, but you just don't leave. You work it out. Now, there are some things harder to get over than others, but you work it out and you stick it out until hopefully it does work out and your marriage makes sense. We saw strong marriages growing up.   Black Love: Elevating Not Excluding   Dana Che: When we say black love, this is not meant to be racially exclusive. We want everyone here to feel included. But I also want to make sure that we elevate black love, especially during Black History Month. We are elevating what black love is, how resilient, how strong it is. Pastor Kevin, let me just start off by telling people we have a big value of marriage counseling and marriage coaching on this show. I know Shaun and I sat across the counseling table from you many times in our relationship, and you've counseled quite a lot of couples, not just in our church, but just couples in general.   Let me ask you, just kind of starting off this conversation, if you had to say, over the course of the many couples that you have counseled, what do you see as kind of the main foundational problem that a lot of couples are facing? Couples with Communication Problems Kevin: I would say communication on so many different levels. And part of it is not understanding the wiring of the other person or warning the other person, really, to think and to act, to make decisions the way that person makes them. And that's impossible because there's a book called His Brain, Her Brain. We're wired differently in every facet. Women and men are different. That sounds trite, but it is a truth.   So what I attempt to do is to help through various tools, help couples really see how God has wired them so they can understand. Again, this took now what I can give to couples, maybe in four or five sessions, it took me half of my marriage to learn, 45 years to learn it myself. But once you come to understand, one, that you're different, and two, you learn to appreciate those differences. That's when you're on a good road to healing, a good road in terms of understanding how to work with each other in unity and in harmony. So I'll stop there, but communication is at the top.   Dana Che: All right. So let's talk a little bit about you said.  It took you, like, 20-25 years to learn. So what was going on with you and Wanda? What were the communication challenges that you were seeing in your earlier years of marriage?   Kevin: Well, in our earlier years of marriage, I came in with some unusual baggage. I was very religious, sincere in my passion for God, loved not only God, but loved the church. So much so that I did one thing. I'll tell you this quick story. When I we were married for five years, four years before we had our first child, five years before we had our first child. And I had developed this regiment. On Friday nights, I go to church. I come home, work all day, one that works all day, become home, and I go to church because I was a musician. So at 06:00, I need to rehearse the choir, and then following that was a church service at around 08:00, so I wouldn't get home to about nine or 10:00 that night. Okay. So when we had Kevin, I picked Wanda up. It was a Friday that she came home. We came in the house and I said, okay, sweetheart, you got everything. And guess what I did.   Dana Che: You went to church after your new baby had just been born?   Kevin: It took some time for me to live that way down, but that was an issue that was out of total ignorance, and it really sent a really bad message to her, to where she felt, okay, this is the way my life is going to be. I got to find a way I'll stay long enough to get things stable for my son, but I don't know if I could stand this relationship.   I didn't have a clue, the message that I was sending. And at that time, Wanda wasn't a big talker. She was just saying, well, if this is his life . . . she's not that type that's going to intrude. If that's who you are and that's what you want, I'm not going to interfere. So she didn't communicate that, but I picked it up, and there's some more to the story. But that's when I really began to kind of understand that, no, I need to learn some things. I need to mature and need to allow her to be who she is. And not try to make her who I think she should be based upon some idealistic, religious, spiritual ideology.   Married with a Spiritual Imbalance Dana Che: Yes. That is so good that you're talking about that, because I do think a lot of Christian couples are dealing with that, where you'll have kind of this imbalance in spirituality and one spouse. I mean, I was this way where I would do the whole shaming Shaun because he didn't want to go to church and trying to make him go to all the meetings and stuff that I wanted to go to and doing the whole blame and shame game. So I think that there's always that tendency because like you said, our intentions are good, but the way that we present it, it really just pushes the other spouse in the opposite direction. WATCH MY VIDEO: WHEN YOUR HUSBAND DOESN'T LEAD SPIRITUALLY Kevin: It is absolutely right. That was, for me, one of the things that I did that I learned later as I matured, that boy did that damage the relationship early on that needed some time to heal, and I had to prove it was more than words, really. You count and I really respect you. I had to demonstrate that and prove that.   Dana Che: So, Wanda, you weren't much of a talker in those early years. Was it just kind of this idea that he's going to do what he wants to do anyway, there's no need or was there something else going on inside of you that you didn't communicate, like what this was really doing to you?   Wanda: First of all, my personality is I'm an internal processor. I don't process outwardly. And also, I wasn't trying to compete with God. Now, when Kevin I'm going to go back a little bit. When we first started dating, he wasn't really well, he was involved in church, don't get me wrong, but I very much was at the top of his list. And then we get married and people say this all the time. You find out who the real person is when you get married. And I always say men like to hunt. They like to do all they can to get the prey. And then when they have the pray, they're like, okay, so I can go back to my regular life. So this part of Kevin's life, I really did not know how in depth he was or connected he was to the church.  What Most Black Fathers Want for Their Daughters My dad raised three girls. So I had a mom and dad all my life. I don't know anything without a mom and dad. And my dad raised three girls. And his philosophy was, I don't know that you're going to get married. I hope that you find someone special, but if not, I'm going to make sure you know how to survive. So survival, I felt like, wasn't going to be that hard for me because I kind of knew how to do it. But it was important because I already had my son, that he was connected to Kevin, even though I wasn't really connected to Kevin. So I said, well, I'll stay long enough so that I don't destroy my son. I want that bond to be there between he and his dad. And I'm not going to compete with God. If God is number one in your life, then fine. And we are at the bottom. That's where we were going to stand. So I wasn't going to try to compete with God, but I realized later it wasn't per se God. It was the religious environment that we were in.     Wanda: Dana, I want to say this. I think most people plan for the wedding, but they don't plan for the marriage. And it's very difficult. You're taking two different, totally different personalities and trying to bring them in along with your family dynamics. And we have a great relationship with both sides of our family, which I know a lot of people don't have, but we do have that. We were raised similar as far as morals and your love for your family, but the difference was the religion. Church was a part of our life, but it wasn't everything in our life.   Dana Che: Wanda, you said two things that I think are and correct me if I'm wrong or if you have a different perspective, but two things I think that might be kind of unique to black culture. One, you said that your dad raised you to basically survive. He was like, I'm going to raise these girls up to be able to take care of themselves so they're not dependent upon a man. And I find that that is something that is unique to our culture, whether you're being raised by a single mom. I was raised by a single mom for the majority of my childhood, and that was my mom's purpose. It's like, you need to be able to take care of yourself. You need to be able to be independent. And not to say that our other cultures don't teach their kids that, but I do think that there is something very unique about black culture that we want to make sure our kids are going to be all right.    They're not going to be dependent upon anybody. And then the second thing that you said that I thought was really impactful you were talking about just kind of how you grew up and the fact that both of you guys have both of your parents. And I love that because I feel like a lot of the stereotype about blacks is that all black people grew up in single parent homes, and no black people grew up with their fathers. And both of you are living witnesses of the opposite, that you both did grow up in families that were intact, not perfect, I'm sure, but impact families. Black Families: Legacy Leavers Wanda: Right. And we even grew up with our grandparents being married, so there was never divorce. I didn't see divorce until I got older and some family members that just didn't make it. But as far as my family and our grandparents, we always saw marriage. So that probably also Dana was a benefit to our marriage, because you just don't leave. I'm sure had some tough times, but you just don't leave. You work it out. Now, there are some things that it's harder to get over than others, but you work it out and you stick it out until hopefully it does work out and your marriage makes it. And we can say for both our parents, they have wonderful marriages, though. My dad died two years ago. 63 years for my parents and 72 years for Kevin's parents.   Dana Che: Wow.   Kevin: We saw strong marriages. Not perfect, but they modeled, particularly later in life. My dad is 92 and waits on my mom hand and foot, but my mother waits on him, too. So there's that reciprocal relationship, and now it's sweeter than ever. God has blessed us with tremendous role models of what a marriage is.   Dana Che: You know, I came across a quote that said, black love is revolutionary. And I've been, like, marinating on that quote. And then one of my friends said it to me not too long ago, and she's a single girl, and she's like, I'm not going to settle. I'm not going to settle for just anybody. So I asked her, and I've been asking different people, like, what does that mean to you? Black love is revolutionary. So I want to ask you guys, what do you think about that quote? Do you agree? And if so, what does that mean to you?   To hear the rest of the conversation, be sure to listen to the full episode of the podcast!      Links Mentioned in this Episode Grab Your Free 7 Secrets to a Happy Marriage Resource Learn more about the Life Enrichment Center  Listen to 5 Ways to C.O.V.E.R Your Marriage in Prayer    SUBSCRIBE | SHARE | RATE | COMMENT To ensure you never miss an episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, Stitcher, iHeart Radio, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Remember, sharing is caring! So, share these episodes with your friends and family via email or social media.

About KevinKevin Miller is currently the global General Manager for Amazon Simple Storage Service (S3), an object storage service that offers industry-leading scalability, data availability, security, and performance. Prior to this role, Kevin has had multiple leadership roles within AWS, including as the General Manager for Amazon S3 Glacier, Director of Engineering for AWS Virtual Private Cloud, and engineering leader for AWS Virtual Private Network and AWS Direct Connect. Kevin was also Technical Advisor to the Senior Vice President for AWS Utility Computing. Kevin is a graduate of Carnegie Mellon University with a Bachelor of Science in Computer Science.Links Referenced: snark.cloud/shirt: https://snark.cloud/shirt aws.amazon.com/s3: https://aws.amazon.com/s3 TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is brought to us in part by our friends at Datadog. Datadog is a SaaS monitoring and security platform that enables full-stack observability for modern infrastructure and applications at every scale. Datadog enables teams to see everything: dashboarding, alerting, application performance monitoring, infrastructure monitoring, UX monitoring, security monitoring, dog logos, and log management, in one tightly integrated platform. With 600-plus out-of-the-box integrations with technologies including all major cloud providers, databases, and web servers, Datadog allows you to aggregate all your data into one platform for seamless correlation, allowing teams to troubleshoot and collaborate together in one place, preventing downtime and enhancing performance and reliability. Get started with a free 14-day trial by visiting datadoghq.com/screaminginthecloud, and get a free t-shirt after installing the agent.Corey: Managing shards. Maintenance windows. Overprovisioning. ElastiCache bills. I know, I know. It's a spooky season and you're already shaking. It's time for caching to be simpler. Momento Serverless Cache lets you forget the backend to focus on good code and great user experiences. With true autoscaling and a pay-per-use pricing model, it makes caching easy. No matter your cloud provider, get going for free at gomomento.co/screaming. That's GO M-O-M-E-N-T-O dot co slash screaming.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Right now, as I record this, we have just kicked off our annual charity t-shirt fundraiser. This year's shirt showcases S3 as the eighth wonder of the world. And here to either defend or argue the point—we're not quite sure yet—is Kevin Miller, AWS's vice president and general manager for Amazon S3. Kevin, thank you for agreeing to suffer the slings and arrows that are no doubt going to be interpreted, misinterpreted, et cetera, for the next half hour or so.Kevin: Oh, Corey, thanks for having me. And happy to do that, and really flattered for you to be thinking about S3 in this way. So more than happy to chat with you.Corey: It's absolutely one of those services that is foundational to the cloud. It was the first AWS service that was put into general availability, although the beta folks are going to argue back and forth about no, no, that was SQS instead. I feel like now that Mai-Lan handles both SQS and S3 as part of her portfolio, she is now the final arbiter of that. I'm sure that's an argument for a future day. But it's impossible to imagine cloud without S3.Kevin: I definitely think that's true. It's hard to imagine cloud, actually, with many of our foundational services, including SQS, of course, but we are—yes, we were the first generally available service with S3. And pretty happy with our anniversary being Pi Day, 3/14.Corey: I'm also curious, your own personal trajectory has been not necessarily what folks would expect. You were the general manager of Amazon Glacier, and now you're the general manager and vice president of S3. So, I've got to ask, because there are conflicting reports on this depending upon what angle you look at, are Glacier and S3 the same thing?Kevin: Yes, I was the general manager for S3 Glacier prior to coming over to S3 proper, and the answer is no, they are not the same thing. We certainly have a number of technologies where we're able to use those technologies both on S3 and Glacier, but there are certainly a number of things that are very distinct about Glacier and give us that ability to hit the ultra-low price points that we do for Glacier Deep Archive being as low as $1 per terabyte-month. And so, that definitely—there's a lot of actual ingenuity up and down the stack, from hardware to software, everywhere in between, to really achieve that with Glacier. But then there's other spots where S3 and Glacier have very similar needs, and then, of course, today many customers use Glacier through S3 as a storage class in S3, and so that's a great way to do that. So, there's definitely a lot of shared code, but certainly, when you get into it, there's [unintelligible 00:04:59] to both of them.Corey: I ran a number of obnoxiously detailed financial analyses, and they all came away with, unless you have a very specific very nuanced understanding of your data lifecycle and/or it is less than 30 or 60 days depending upon a variety of different things, the default S3 storage class you should be using for virtually anything is Intelligent Tiering. That is my purely economic analysis of it. Do you agree with that? Disagree with that? And again, I understand that all of these storage classes are like your children, and I am inviting you to tell me which one of them is your favorite, but I'm absolutely prepared to do that.Kevin: Well, we love Intelligent Tiering because it is very simple; customers are able to automatically save money using Intelligent Tiering for data that's not being frequently accessed. And actually, since we launched it a few years ago, we've already saved customers more than $250 million using Intelligent Tiering. So, I would say today, it is our default recommendation in almost every case. I think that the cases where we would recommend another storage class as the primary storage class tend to be specific to the use case where—and particularly for use cases where customers really have a good understanding of the access patterns. And we saw some customers do for their certain dataset, they know that it's going to be heavily accessed for a fixed period of time, or this data is actually for archival, it'll never be accessed, or very rarely if ever access, just maybe in an emergency.And those kinds of use cases, I think actually, customers are probably best to choose one of the specific storage classes where they're, sort of, paying that the lower cost from day one. But again, I would say for the vast majority of cases that we see, the data access patterns are unpredictable and customers like the flexibility of being able to very quickly retrieve the data if they decide they need to use it. But in many cases, they'll save a lot of money as the data is not being accessed, and so, Intelligent Tiering is a great choice for those cases.Corey: I would take it a step further and say that even when customers believe that they are going to be doing a deeper analysis and they have a better understanding of their data flow patterns than Intelligent Tiering would, in practice, I see that they rarely do anything about it. It's one of those things where they're like, “Oh, yeah, we're going to set up our own lifecycle policies real soon now,” whereas, just switch it over to Intelligent Tiering and never think about it again. People's time is worth so much more than the infrastructure they're working on in almost every case. It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense unless you have a very intentioned, very urgent reason to go and do that stuff by hand in most cases.Kevin: Yeah, that's right. I think I agree with you, Corey. And certainly, that is the recommendation we lead with customers.Corey: In previous years, our charity t-shirt has focused on other areas of AWS, and one of them was based upon a joke that I've been telling for a while now, which is that the best database in the world is Route 53 and storing TXT records inside of it. I don't know if I ever mentioned this to you or not, but the first iteration of that joke was featuring around S3. The challenge that I had with it is that S3 Select is absolutely a thing where you can query S3 with SQL which I don't see people doing anymore because Athena is the easier, more, shall we say, well-articulated version of all of that. And no, no, that joke doesn't work because it's actually true. You can use S3 as a database. Does that statement fill you with dread? Regret? Am I misunderstanding something? Or are you effectively running a giant subversive database?Kevin: Well, I think that certainly when most customers think about a database, they think about a collection of technology that's applied for given problems, and so I wouldn't count S3 as providing the whole range of functionality that would really make up a database. But I think that certainly a lot of the primitives and S3 Select as a great example of a primitive are available in S3. And we're looking at adding, you know, additional primitives going forward to make it possible to, you know, to build a database around S3. And as you see, other AWS services have done that in many ways. For example, obviously with Amazon Redshift having a lot of capability now to just directly access and use data in S3 and make that a super seamless so that you can then run data warehousing type queries on top of S3 and on top of your other datasets.So, I certainly think it's a great building block. And one other thing I would actually just say that you may not know, Corey, is that one of the things over the last couple of years we've been doing a lot more with S3 is actually working to directly contribute improvements to open-source connector software that uses S3, to make available automatically some of the performance improvements that can be achieved either using both the AWS SDK, and also using things like S3 Select. So, we started with a few of those things with Select; you're going to see more of that coming, most likely. And some of that, again, the idea there as you may not even necessarily know you're using Select, but when we can identify that it will improve performance, we're looking to be able to contribute those kinds of improvements directly—or we are contributing those directly to those open-source packages. So, one thing I would definitely recommend customers and developers do is have a capability of sort of keeping that software up-to-date because although it might seem like those are sort of one-and-done kind of software integrations, there's actually almost continuous improvement now going on, and around things like that capability, and then others we come out with.Corey: What surprised me is just how broadly S3 has been adopted by a wide variety of different clients' software packages out there. Back when I was running production environments in anger, I distinctly remember in one Ubuntu environment, we wound up installing a specific package that was designed to teach apt how to retrieve packages and its updates from S3, which was awesome. I don't see that anymore, just because it seems that it is so easy to do it now, just with the native features that S3 offers, as well as an awful lot of software under the hood has learned to directly recognize S3 as its own thing, and can react accordingly.Kevin: And just do the right thing. Exactly. No, we certainly see a lot of that. So that's, you know—I mean, obviously making that simple for end customers to use and achieve what they're trying to do, that's the whole goal.Corey: It's always odd to me when I'm talking to one of my clients who is looking to understand and optimize their AWS bill to see outliers in either direction when it comes to S3 itself. When they're driving large S3 bills as in a majority of their spend, it's, okay, that is very interesting. Let's dive into that. But almost more interesting to me is when it is effectively not being used at all. When, oh, we're doing everything with EBS volumes or EFS.And again, those are fine services. I don't have any particular problem with them anymore, but the problem I have is that the cloud long ago took what amounts to an economic vote. There's a tax savings for storing data in an object store the way that you—and by extension, most of your competitors—wind up pricing this, versus the idea of on a volume basis where you have to pre-provision things, you don't get any form of durability that extends beyond the availability zone boundary. It just becomes an awful lot of, “Well, you could do it this way. But it gets really expensive really quickly.”It just feels wild to me that there is that level of variance between S3 just sort of raw storage basis, economically, as well as then just the, frankly, ridiculous levels of durability and availability that you offer on top of that. How did you get there? Was the service just mispriced at the beginning? Like oh, we dropped to zero and probably should have put that in there somewhere.Kevin: Well, no, I wouldn't call it mispriced. I think that the S3 came about when we took a—we spent a lot of time looking at the architecture for storage systems, and knowing that we wanted a system that would provide the durability that comes with having three completely independent data centers and the elasticity and capability where, you know, customers don't have to provision the amount of storage they want, they can simply put data and the system keeps growing. And they can also delete data and stop paying for that storage when they're not using it. And so, just all of that investment and sort of looking at that architecture holistically led us down the path to where we are with S3.And we've definitely talked about this. In fact, in Peter's keynote at re:Invent last year, we talked a little bit about how the system is designed under the hood, and one of the thing you realize is that S3 gets a lot of the benefits that we do by just the overall scale. The fact that it is—I think the stat is that at this point more than 10,000 customers have data that's stored on more than a million hard drives in S3. And that's how you get the scale and the capability to do is through massive parallelization. Where customers that are, you know, I would say building more traditional architectures, those are inherently typically much more siloed architectures with a relatively small-scale overall, and it ends up with a lot of resource that's provisioned at small-scale in sort of small chunks with each resource, that you never get to that scale where you can start to take advantage of the some is more than the greater of the parts.And so, I think that's what the recognition was when we started out building S3. And then, of course, we offer that as an API on top of that, where customers can consume whatever they want. That is, I think, where S3, at the scale it operates, is able to do certain things, including on the economics, that are very difficult or even impossible to do at a much smaller scale.Corey: One of the more egregious clown-shoe statements that I hear from time to time has been when people will come to me and say, “We've built a competitor to S3.” And my response is always one of those, “Oh, this should be good.” Because when people say that, they generally tend to be focusing on one or maybe two dimensions that doesn't work for a particular use case as well as it could. “Okay, what was your story around why this should be compared to S3?” “Well, it's an object store. It has full S3 API compatibility.” “Does it really because I have to say, there are times where I'm not entirely convinced that S3 itself has full compatibility with the way that its API has been documented.”And there's an awful lot of magic that goes into this too. “Okay, great. You're running an S3 competitor. Great. How many buildings does it live in?” Like, “Well, we have a problem with the s at the end of that word.” It's, “Okay, great. If it fits on my desk, it is not a viable S3 competitor. If it fits in a single zip code, it is probably not a viable S3 competitor.” Now, can it be an object store? Absolutely. Does it provide a new interface to some existing data someone might have? Sure why not. But I think that, oh, it's S3 compatible, is something that gets tossed around far too lightly by folks who don't really understand what it is that drives S3 and makes it special.Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I would say certainly, there's a number of other implementations of the S3 API, and frankly we're flattered that customers recognize and our competitors and others recognize the simplicity of the API and go about implementing it. But to your point, I think that there's a lot more; it's not just about the API, it's really around everything surrounding S3 from, as you mentioned, the fact that the data in S3 is stored in three independent availability zones, all of which that are separated by kilometers from each other, and the resilience, the automatic failover, and the ability to withstand an unlikely impact to one of those facilities, as well as the scalability, and you know, the fact that we put a lot of time and effort into making sure that the service continues scaling with our customers need. And so, I think there's a lot more that goes into what is S3. And oftentimes just in a straight-up comparison, it's sort of purely based on just the APIs and generally a small set of APIs, in addition to those intangibles around—or not intangibles, but all of the ‘-ilities,' right, the elasticity and the durability, and so forth that I just talked about. In addition to all that also, you know, certainly what we're seeing for customers is as they get into the petabyte and tens of petabytes, hundreds of petabytes scale, their need for the services that we provide to manage that storage, whether it's lifecycle and replication, or things like our batch operations to help update and to maintain all the storage, those become really essential to customers wrapping their arms around it, as well as visibility, things like Storage Lens to understand, what storage do I have? Who's using it? How is it being used?And those are all things that we provide to help customers manage at scale. And certainly, you know, oftentimes when I see claims around S3 compatibility, a lot of those advanced features are nowhere to be seen.Corey: I also want to call out that a few years ago, Mai-Lan got on stage and talked about how, to my recollection, you folks have effectively rebuilt S3 under the hood into I think it was 235 distinct microservices at the time. There will not be a quiz on numbers later, I'm assuming. But what was wild to me about that is having done that for services that are orders of magnitude less complex, it absolutely is like changing the engine on a car without ever slowing down on the highway. Customers didn't know that any of this was happening until she got on stage and announced it. That is wild to me. I would have said before this happened that there was no way that would have been possible except it clearly was. I have to ask, how did you do that in the broad sense?Kevin: Well, it's true. A lot of the underlying infrastructure that's been part of S3, both hardware and software is, you know, you wouldn't—if someone from S3 in 2006 came and looked at the system today, they would probably be very disoriented in terms of understanding what was there because so much of it has changed. To answer your question, the long and short of it is a lot of testing. In fact, a lot of novel testing most recently, particularly with the use of formal logic and what we call automated reasoning. It's also something we've talked a fair bit about in re:Invent.And that is essentially where you prove the correctness of certain algorithms. And we've used that to spot some very interesting, the one-in-a-trillion type cases that S3 scale happens regularly, that you have to be ready for and you have to know how the system reacts, even in all those cases. I mean, I think one of our engineers did some calculations that, you know, the number of potential states for S3, sort of, exceeds the number of atoms in the universe or something so crazy. But yet, using methods like automated reasoning, we can test that state space, we can understand what the system will do, and have a lot of confidence as we begin to swap, you know, pieces of the system.And of course, nothing in S3 scale happens instantly. It's all, you know, I would say that for a typical engineering effort within S3, there's a certain amount of effort, obviously, in making the change or in preparing the new software, writing the new software and testing it, but there's almost an equal amount of time that goes into, okay, and what is the process for migrating from System A to System B, and that happens over a timescale of months, if not years, in some cases. And so, there's just a lot of diligence that goes into not just the new systems, but also the process of, you know, literally, how do I swap that engine on the system. So, you know, it's a lot of really hard working engineers that spent a lot of time working through these details every day.Corey: I still view S3 through the lens of it is one of the easiest ways in the world to wind up building a static web server because you basically stuff the website files into a bucket and then you check a box. So, it feels on some level though, that it is about as accurate as saying that S3 is a database. It can be used or misused or pressed into service in a whole bunch of different use cases. What have you seen from customers that has, I guess, taught you something you didn't expect to learn about your own service?Kevin: Oh, I'd say we have those [laugh]  meetings pretty regularly when customers build their workloads and have unique patterns to it, whether it's the type of data they're retrieving and the access pattern on the data. You know, for example, some customers will make heavy use of our ability to do [ranged gets 00:22:47] on files and [unintelligible 00:22:48] objects. And that's pretty good capability, but that can be one where that's very much dependent on the type of file, right, certain files have structure, as far as you know, a header or footer, and that data is being accessed in a certain order. Oftentimes, those may also be multi-part objects, and so making use of the multi-part features to upload different chunks of a file in parallel. And you know, also certainly when customers get into things like our batch operations capability where they can literally write a Lambda function and do what they want, you know, we've seen some pretty interesting use cases where customers are running large-scale operations across, you know, billions, sometimes tens of billions of objects, and this can be pretty interesting as far as what they're able to do with them.So, for something is sort of what you might—you know, as simple and basics, in some sense, of GET and PUT API, just all the capability around it ends up being pretty interesting as far as how customers apply it and the different workloads they run on it.Corey: So, if you squint hard enough, what I'm hearing you tell me is that I can view all of this as, “Oh, yeah. S3 is also compute.” And it feels like that as a fast-track to getting a question wrong on one of the certification exams. But I have to ask, from your point of view, is S3 storage? And whether it's yes or no, what gets you excited about the space that it's in?Kevin: Yeah well, I would say S3 is not compute, but we have some great compute services that are very well integrated with S3, which excites me as well as we have things like S3 Object Lambda, where we actually handle that integration with Lambda. So, you're writing Lambda functions, we're executing them on the GET path. And so, that's a pretty exciting feature for me. But you know, to sort of take a step back, what excites me is I think that customers around the world, in every industry, are really starting to recognize the value of data and data at large scale. You know, I think that actually many customers in the world have terabytes or more of data that sort of flows through their fingers every day that they don't even realize.And so, as customers realize what data they have, and they can capture and then start to analyze and make ultimately make better business decisions that really help drive their top line or help them reduce costs, improve costs on whether it's manufacturing or, you know, other things that they're doing. That's what really excites me is seeing those customers take the raw capability and then apply it to really just to transform how they not just how their business works, but even how they think about the business. Because in many cases, transformation is not just a technical transformation, it's people and cultural transformation inside these organizations. And that's pretty cool to see as it unfolds.Corey: One of the more interesting things that I've seen customers misunderstand, on some level, has been a number of S3 releases that focus around, “Oh, this is for your data lake.” And I've asked customers about that. “So, what's your data lake strategy?” “Well, we don't have one of those.” “You have, like, eight petabytes and climbing in S3? What do you call that?” It's like, “Oh, yeah, that's just a bunch of buckets we dump things into. Some are logs of our assets and the rest.” It's—Kevin: Right.Corey: Yeah, it feels like no one thinks of themselves as having anything remotely resembling a structured place for all of the data that accumulates at a company.Kevin: Mm-hm.Corey: There is an evolution of people learning that oh, yeah, this is in fact, what it is that we're doing, and this thing that they're talking about does apply to us. But it almost feels like a customer communication challenge, just because, I don't know about you, but with my legacy AWS account, I have dozens of buckets in there that I don't remember what the heck they're for. Fortunately, you folks don't charge by the bucket, so I can smile, nod, remain blissfully ignorant, but it does make me wonder from time to time.Kevin: Yeah, no, I think that what you hear there is actually pretty consistent with what the reality is for a lot of customers, which is in distributed organizations, I think that's bound to happen, you have different teams that are working to solve problems, and they are collecting data to analyze, they're creating result datasets and they're storing those datasets. And then, of course, priorities can shift, and you know, and there's not necessarily the day-to-day management around data that we might think would be expected. I feel [we 00:26:56] sort of drew an architecture on a whiteboard. And so, I think that's the reality we are in. And we will be in, largely forever.I mean, I think that at a smaller-scale, that's been happening for years. So, I think that, one, I think that there's a lot of capability just being in the cloud. At the very least, you can now start to wrap your arms around it, right, where used to be that it wasn't even possible to understand what all that data was because there's no way to centrally inventory it well. In AWS with S3, with inventory reports, you can get a list of all your storage and we are going to continue to add capability to help customers get their arms around what they have, first off; understand how it's being used—that's where things like Storage Lens really play a big role in understanding exactly what data is being accessed and not. We're definitely listening to customers carefully around this, and I think when you think about broader data management story, I think that's a place that we're spending a lot of time thinking right now about how do we help customers get their arms around it, make sure that they know what's the categorization of certain data, do I have some PII lurking here that I need to be very mindful of?And then how do I get to a world where I'm—you know, I won't say that it's ever going to look like the perfect whiteboard picture you might draw on the wall. I don't think that's really ever achievable, but I think certainly getting to a point where customers have a real solid understanding of what data they have and that the right controls are in place around all that data, yeah, I think that's directionally where I see us heading.Corey: As you look around how far the service has come, it feels like, on some level, that there were some, I guess, I don't want to say missteps, but things that you learned as you went along. Like, back when the service was in beta, for example, there was no per-request charge. To my understanding that was changed, in part because people were trying to use it as a file system, and wow, that suddenly caused a tremendous amount of load on some of the underlying systems. You originally launched with a BitTorrent endpoint as an option so that people could download through peer-to-peer approaches for large datasets and turned out that wasn't really the way the internet evolved, either. And I'm curious, if you were to have to somehow build this off from scratch, are there any other significant changes you would make in how the service was presented to customers in how people talked about it in the early days? Effectively given a mulligan, what would you do differently?Kevin: Well, I don't know, Corey, I mean, just given where it's grown to in macro terms, you know, I definitely would be worried taking a mulligan, you know, that I [laugh] would change the sort of the overarching trajectory. Certainly, I think there's a few features here and there where, for whatever reason, it was exciting at the time and really spoke to what customers at the time were thinking, but over time, you know, sort of quickly those needs move to something a little bit different. And, you know, like you said things like the BitTorrent support is one where, at some level, it seems like a great technical architecture for the internet, but certainly not something that we've seen dominate in the way things are done. Instead, you know, we've largely kind of have a world where there's a lot of caching layers, but it still ends up being largely client-server kind of connections. So, I don't think I would do a—I certainly wouldn't do a mulligan on any of the major functionality, and I think, you know, there's a few things in the details where obviously, we've learned what really works in the end. I think we learned that we wanted bucket names to really strictly conform to rules for DNS encoding. So, that was the change that was made at some point. And we would tweak that, but no major changes, certainly.Corey: One subject of some debate while we were designing this year's charity t-shirt—which, incidentally, if you're listening to this, you can pick up for yourself at snark.cloud/shirt—was the is S3 itself dependent upon S3? Because we know that every other service out there is as well, but it is interesting to come up with an idea of, “Oh, yeah. We're going to launch a whole new isolated region of S3 without S3 to lean on.” That feels like it's an almost impossible bootstrapping problem.Kevin: Well, S3 is not dependent on S3 to come up, and it's certainly a critical dependency tree that we look at and we track and make sure that we'd like to have an acyclic graph as we look at dependencies.Corey: That is such a sophisticated way to say what I learned the hard way when I was significantly younger and working in production environments: don't put the DNS servers needed to boot the hypervisor into VMs that require a working hypervisor. It's one of those oh, yeah, in hindsight, that makes perfect sense, but you learn it right after that knowledge really would have been useful.Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the terms we use for that, as well as is the idea of static stability, or that's one of the techniques that can really help with isolating a dependency is what we call static stability. We actually have an article about that in the Amazon Builder Library, which there's actually a bunch of really good articles in there from very experienced operations-focused engineers in AWS. So, static stability is one of those key techniques, but other techniques—I mean, just pure minimization of dependencies is one. And so, we were very, very thoughtful about that, particularly for that core layer.I mean, you know, when you talk about S3 with 200-plus microservices, or 235-plus microservices, I would say not all of those services are critical for every single request. Certainly, a small subset of those are required for every request, and then other services actually help manage and scale the kind of that inner core of services. And so, we look at dependencies on a service by service basis to really make sure that inner core is as minimized as possible. And then the outer layers can start to take some dependencies once you have that basic functionality up.Corey: I really want to thank you for being as generous with your time as you have been. If people want to learn more about you and about S3 itself, where should they go—after buying a t-shirt, of course.Kevin: Well, certainly buy the t-shirt. First, I love the t-shirts and the charity that you work with to do that. Obviously, for S3, it's aws.amazon.com/s3. And you can actually learn more about me. I have some YouTube videos, so you can search for me on YouTube and kind of get a sense of myself.Corey: We will put links to that into the show notes, of course. Thank you so much for being so generous with your time. I appreciate it.Kevin: Absolutely. Yeah. Glad to spend some time. Thanks for the questions, Corey.Corey: Kevin Miller, vice president and general manager for Amazon S3. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an angry, ignorant comment talking about how your S3 compatible service is going to blow everyone's socks off when it fails.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

In this special episode of The A to Z English Podcast, we talk with Jonathan from Costa Rica, a dedicated English student and an active member of our Whatsapp group. (Link here: https://forms.gle/zKCS8y1t9jwv2KTn7)Website Link: https://atozenglishpodcast.com/?p=1739It's a great conversation, so you won't want to miss it!Share your thoughts about today's interview in our Whatsapp group or tell us if you think you have something interesting to talk about. Perhaps you could be our next guest on the podcast!If you could take a minute and complete a short survey about the podcast, we would be very appreciative. You can find the survey here: https://forms.gle/HHNnnqU6U8W3DodK8We would love to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.Intro/Outro Music by Eaters: https://freemusicarchive.org/music/eaters/the-astronomers-office/agents-in-coffee-shops/Full Transcript: Jonathan from Costa RicaKevin: Welcome to an A to Z English listener interview. Today we're talking with Jonathan Gutierrez who is in Costa Rica and is one of our listeners. And he's going to tell us today about his English learning experience using A to Z English and all of the other sources that he did. So Jonathan, nice to see you. it's night time there right?Jonathan: Okay, it's nice to see you guys. So um thank you for having me here.Kevin: Oh you're welcome. it's great to have you on the show. Jack: Yeah thanks for coming and I appreciate it. Kevin: Yeah it's already evening there. Did you have your dinner tonight?Jonathan: Uh not yet. I just arrived at home a few minutes ago.Kevin: Yeah?Jonathan: I was working today, so I just arrived at home maybe 10 or 15 minutes ago. But it's okay.Kevin: Well thank you for finding time to join us then for us it's Monday daytime of course time zones are funny, so Jonathan you're in Costa Rica.I've never been to Costa Rica though I have had a couple of friends that went there. Actually one of my good friends from university, he and his uh girlfriend at the time, now wife, they went to Costa Rica many years ago, maybe almost 20 years ago and they were teaching English for six months or a year, so I know English education is quite big in Costa Rica. How, where or when did you first start learning English? Was it in schools or did you have a tutor or just the internet or where did you start? Jonathan: Yeah I started when I in high school. Okay so I'm learning a few things in high school. Maybe I don't uh that I feel for example um I love the idiom or stuff like that. Sure maybe a couple years ago that I started to return again to learning English and I joined what's the room with Robin Shaw? So I started my new challenge. I changed my mind because I want um to get a bilingual job and I think I start to practice a little bit more. I forgot all the rules and English grammars. I love vocabulary so it was a little bit insane you know. Maybe not because I forgot so a lot of things um so it was something new for me. Let's start again. They start with uh maybe kids stuff um and it was pretty good. Robin helped me a lot. Kevin: I'm curious. if you said you started again because you forgot everything, I actually I know Costa Rica is a Spanish-speaking country and I used to speak a little bit of Spanish. I studied Spanish in university. But like you I stopped using it and I totally forgot everything once you started to study again. Was it easier than the first time? Did you start to remember things?Jonathan: Yeah it's quite something funny because when I'm trying to learn again um I remember oh I remember this but how can we use everything. So I forgot for example um singular verbs, plural, past tense and stuff like that. Yeah so it started again. I practiced a lot um every day and yeah I found a bunch of friends and I tried to do my best every day to learn English and my one of my goals was get bilingual because I am native speaker Spanish speaker all right good yeah. it was a big challenge you know. it was pretty awesome. I was excited to learn again English, so I decided to start again and practice and practice every day. Jack: That's great! Yeah do you use English in your job right now? Jonathan: Yes I've been working in a call center for around five months oh nice and is for um I am customer service agent for us company so it's something new for me and I'm taking calls every day for…Jack: So are the people that calling you are they they're Americans then?Jonathan: Yes.Kevin: And I know speaking another language over the phone can sometimes be more difficult than speaking together with a person because you can't see them. You don't know what their facial expressions or what their body is doing. What things have been the hardest for you doing a phone job where you're only listening to people speaking English and Americans have many different styles of English. Some are very fast. Some are very slow. What was what's the hardest thing for you in in your job?Jonathan: All right um I guess that's the listening stuff because when the customer speaks.Kevin: They start to speak and start to speak uh faster right?Jonathan: Faster and you need to get all the information in a few seconds and trying to avoid. Kevin: Do you mean trying umJonathan: Yeah trying I need to improve a lot my listening skills to avoid this kind of situation because it's a customer service job I mean right we need to focus on listening and try to get the best message with the customer and assist the customer and sometimes we can hear um maybe i'll set customers and we need to okay slow down, take it easy and assist the customer.Kevin: Well that sounds like our podcast would be helpful for listening skills. Then so I'm hopeful that we are helping you. There that's great yeah what was the…Jack: Uh could you could you give us an example of maybe like a very challenging phone call or a uh experience that you've had at the call center? Is there one memorable experience? Jonathan: Yeah we got a lot of accents from us so maybe for example when I try to speak uh when a customer uh he got access from example for Texas or um it's so hard to understand but I try to do my best and when decide to speak it faster and faster, it's hard to understand. But I always do my best every day.Jack: Yeah so like a southern Texas accent would be hard to understand but like in eastern in the east uh people speak quite quickly in New York and yeah Massachusetts in that area yeah people speak very fast, very quickly. Jonathan: You got it uh by the way um well our customers are from the east coast uh Massachusetts, Boston, New York and New Jersey yeah and Philadelphia um and I find that listening also can sometimes be more difficult than speaking because there's so many ways to say the same thing and one person says it this way, another person says it a different way and you know one way to say it and so you're correct you know how to do it but they use a different or a different way and so it can be very confusing. It's like oh I know what that means I know what you're saying but I don't know that way of saying it. Yeah all this comes with more and more practice. Kevin: Yeah exactly in the second part is the most important trying to explain the situation with the customer because it's a technical vocabulary so you need to explain some things from to someone that never uses uh technical vocabulary. That's really interesting. You need me to focus uh in something easy right to say to another person that's really interesting because then you are listening to an american a native speaker and you're speaking back to them and you're using words that they don't know so you know more English in some ways than they do. It's just that technical language. What a unique experience to know more English than a native speaker but having to change it for them to understand.Jonathan: Yeah it's a challenge because every day you need to focus on trying to explain yourself something easy about technical vocabulary so maybe it's easy, maybe sometimes it's uh difficult because you need to guess what the customer needs and sometimes it's hard because the customer is trying to explain something and you need to all right. Did you need uh this? You need this all right. I got it and this is the result.Jack: So uh you so you need to practice um your English and you use uh Shaw English and you listen to the A to Z English Podcast but um at your work do you also speak English to your co-workers, your colleagues. Do you practice even though you can both of you speak Spanish as a first language? Do you ever communicate in English with your colleagues just for practice?Jonathan: Yes a few things we need to uh speak English with another uh co-workers or maybe when you need to target another department, it's always speaking English and we always needs to be focused in speaking English together and it's more easy to end of the day for the end of the day. Yeah so when you go to work you basically switch your mind to English. You just say when I'm at work I'm using English and then when I get home I use Spanish.Jack: Is that right?Jonathan: Yeah but it's funny because for me I try to get involved um always in English environment so when I arrive at home I turn on my tv and find um series on Netflix and in English and or are you going to when i'm going to work i'm going to listen to music or listen to your podcast on my cell phone so I trying to always um thinking English, do something in English.Kevin: Cool! That's awesome! Yeah that's more and more practice. So of all of those things that you do the last question I like to ask people that we talk to is if you could give a tip to other listeners, what one thing do you think would be the most useful to practice English? Or what do you do that you think is the most useful? Jonathan: All right for me um I guess um you need to practice every day. It's not my magical poison you know or something like that but the first thing you need to change your mind, uh you need to start to focus in English uh think in English. Uh do exercise practice speak with friends uh maybe international friends is the best way because you never need to speak in another language, just holding in English because if I have a friend here, I can speak Spanish. But for example, if I got a friend on in Malaysia and another person doesn't know anything about the Spanish so you need to focus almost in English.Jack: That's a nice tip! Kevin: Nice! Well Malaysia is good. We talked to Mei Fong last week, so maybe if you talk to her, then you can practice as well. Yeah but that's a great tip getting your mind around English that's yeah a great thing. Just practice, practice, practice. Jonathan: Yeah a lot of practice and uh one thing, it's helped me a lot, is this shadowing technique.Kevin: Uh shadowing uh yeah watching videos on YouTube and practice is a bit aloud and yeah if you can't practice with a friend, you can still do something alone. Just listen and repeat and listen, repeat it does help. It helps you sound more natural in the language that's really fantastic.Kevin: You sound like you work really hard at your English and we're talking to you here, so it's having good results. Jack: Good job! Absolutely. Yeah thanks a lot Jonathan. We really appreciate it.Kevin: Yeah Jonathan. Thanks for sharing your story with us. It's very cool and now you've got to get some dinner. It's late there. You must be very hungry. Jonathan: Yeah a little bit. Kevin: Nice well thank you for coming and talking to us.Jonathan: Thanks to you guys. I really appreciate it. Jack: It's our pleasure. Kevin: Yyeah have a great evening.Jonathan: Same to you and take care and I hope I'll see you soon again. Kevin: All right thank you.Jack: Thanks Jonathan bye bye. Jonathan: See ya. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-a-to-z-english-podcast/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Today's Topics: 1) Gospel - Jn 8:51-59 - “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.” Saint John the Baptist de la Salle, pray for us Bishop Sheen quote of the day 2) Former MLB sports reporter, Kevin Well wrote “It's coming up on 20 years since my uncle, Msgr. ThomasWells was murdered in his Maryland rectory during a somber late summer night. Deputy state attorney Kay Winfree called the scene spine-chilling: as gruesome as anything she'd ever encountered”  https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/enough-of-the-nasty-headlines-already-we-need-good-priests/ 3, 4) Floriani is a sacred music group in Arizona comprised of four recent Thomas Aquinas College graduates. They are incredibly gifted, they just started a Chant School Podcast. Its mission is to spread sacred music throughout America. The podcast teaches the average layman to sing chant in easy steps. Their website: https://www.floriani.org/. The student who began Floriani is Giorgio Navarini. He is an incredibly gifted singer and composer for his age, fascinating story. In case you'd like to contact Giorgio for an interview (805) 668-5018

Kevin (Kjeezy87) returns to the Pod to regale us with his trip to Walt Disney World as well as a quick summary of the Kingdom Hearts games. We rank Star Wars Visions and give a spoiler free review of Venom: Let There Be Carnage. magichavok.threadless.com

Todd: OK. Hello, Kevin?Kevin: Hi, Todd. How are you?Todd: Doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: Kevin we're gonna talk about nature.Kevin: OK.Todd: First of all could you tell the listener where we are?Kevin: Well, let's see. We are on, kind of on the side of a hill in the forest but we have a spectacular view of Mount Fuji on the other side of the valley.Todd: Yeah. It's really nice here. Why are you in this forest right now?Kevin: Well, I'm currently working and I'm teaching an intensive English course up here at the campus.. up here in the forest.Todd: Oh, nice. Do you take any walks in the woods?Kevin: Yes, I enjoy taking walks in the woods. And sometimes I even go for a jog in the woods, there's a few trails around here and there's a nice golf course as well that you can run around.Todd: OK, great! What's the best thing about being in nature? In the forest?Kevin: Well, for me it's the stress relief that it provides especially living in Tokyo which is of course one of the world's largest and most chaotic cities. It's also nice to get back out into nature sometimes and just hear the insects which obviously we can hear very clearly right now, as well as some birds and you know it's just nice to get back out into nature.Todd: I agree. OK. Thanks a lot Kevin.Kevin: You're welcome.

Todd: OK. Hello, Kevin?Kevin: Hi, Todd. How are you?Todd: Doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: Kevin we're gonna talk about nature.Kevin: OK.Todd: First of all could you tell the listener where we are?Kevin: Well, let's see. We are on, kind of on the side of a hill in the forest but we have a spectacular view of Mount Fuji on the other side of the valley.Todd: Yeah. It's really nice here. Why are you in this forest right now?Kevin: Well, I'm currently working and I'm teaching an intensive English course up here at the campus.. up here in the forest.Todd: Oh, nice. Do you take any walks in the woods?Kevin: Yes, I enjoy taking walks in the woods. And sometimes I even go for a jog in the woods, there's a few trails around here and there's a nice golf course as well that you can run around.Todd: OK, great! What's the best thing about being in nature? In the forest?Kevin: Well, for me it's the stress relief that it provides especially living in Tokyo which is of course one of the world's largest and most chaotic cities. It's also nice to get back out into nature sometimes and just hear the insects which obviously we can hear very clearly right now, as well as some birds and you know it's just nice to get back out into nature.Todd: I agree. OK. Thanks a lot Kevin.Kevin: You're welcome.

Todd: OK. Hello, Kevin?Kevin: Hi, Todd. How are you?Todd: Doing pretty good.Kevin: Good.Todd: Kevin we're gonna talk about nature.Kevin: OK.Todd: First of all could you tell the listener where we are?Kevin: Well, let's see. We are on, kind of on the side of a hill in the forest but we have a spectacular view of Mount Fuji on the other side of the valley.Todd: Yeah. It's really nice here. Why are you in this forest right now?Kevin: Well, I'm currently working and I'm teaching an intensive English course up here at the campus.. up here in the forest.Todd: Oh, nice. Do you take any walks in the woods?Kevin: Yes, I enjoy taking walks in the woods. And sometimes I even go for a jog in the woods, there's a few trails around here and there's a nice golf course as well that you can run around.Todd: OK, great! What's the best thing about being in nature? In the forest?Kevin: Well, for me it's the stress relief that it provides especially living in Tokyo which is of course one of the world's largest and most chaotic cities. It's also nice to get back out into nature sometimes and just hear the insects which obviously we can hear very clearly right now, as well as some birds and you know it's just nice to get back out into nature.Todd: I agree. OK. Thanks a lot Kevin.Kevin: You're welcome.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

Todd: OK. Kevin, we're back here in the forest. We're gonna talk about sports.Kevin: OK. Great. I love sports.Todd: What sports do you like?Kevin: Well, my favorite sport is baseball. Obviously, I grew up and my father was a baseball player so I was always aroundbaseball.Todd: Wow.Kevin: My whole life.Todd: You mean your father was a player in the Major Leagues?Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Not only was he a player in the Major Leagues, he was fortunate enough to play in the World Series twice with the New York Mets.Todd: Wow! That's amazing.Kevin: Yeah, The Amazing Met's. 1969.Todd: Wow, that's great. Did you play baseball yourself?Kevin: Yeah, I played baseball pretty much my whole life up through college and university.Todd: OK. Why did you stop?Kevin: Well, it wasn't exactly by choice. I wasn't drafted high enough in professional baseball to.. in order for me to sign, so I ended up retiring from baseball and pursuing other things.Todd: OK. Great. Do you like any others sports?Kevin: Yeah. I actually, I enjoy all competition. You know I enjoy the other typical American sports of basketball and American football and so on, but I also try to learn about and enjoy the national sport of the countries that I'm in. For example now I'm in Japan and I've actually gotten quite into Sumo wrestling.Todd: Oh, really?Kevin: Yeah.Todd: Nice. Have you ever seen a sumo match live?Kevin: Yes, I have. I've been to two sumo bashos as they call them, or matches in Tokyo.Todd: Nice. Yeah, I wanna go. I wanna go myself.Kevin: Yeah, let's go sometime.Todd: OK. Let's do it.

We’ve all been there. It’s late at night, you’re flipping through the channels and you stop on CNBC. Chances are there is an old episode of Shark Tank playing, and sitting in one of those leather chairs you might have seen Kevin Harrington, one of the original sharks. Now think back many years ago, you’re still flipping through the channels, but this time you stop on an infomercial for a George Foreman Grill or a Tony Little Gazelle. Did you know you were actually seeing Kevin there, too? Maybe not physically, but Kevin’s fingerprints and dollars were very much present in those “as-seen-on-TV” specials.  Kevin was the pioneer of the television infomercial, and, therefore, the direct-to-consumer industry. And when the internet emerged, Kevin was one of the first to move his sales online. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, we grabbed Kevin for a quick interview to discuss his latest book, Mentor To Millions, and asked him to take us through his transition from TV powerhouse to digital investor. Kevin explains some of the key areas he looks at when determining if a company is worth investing in, and he details some of the ways that eCommerce companies should be thinking about marketing and product strategy.    3 Takeaways:   If You Don’t Have Marketing Money, Get Marketing Money: It is impossible to have a successful business if no one knows you exist. No matter how small a company might be, marketing has to be a top priority and, when spent wisely, whatever you invest in marketing has the potential to lead to huge ROI. Follow the Customers: The move toward eCommerce began in the mid-1990s when TV infomercials started putting website addresses at the bottom of the screen. Suddenly, companies saw that customers were opting to bypass telephone operators and place the orders themselves, and from there, ecommerce as we know it emerged. By always testing new ways to capture customers, you create opportunities to discover and encourage new types of buying behavior. Exit This Way: What’s more valuable than a product? A brand. And with the marketing tools available today, the ability to create a brand that customers love and trust is easier than ever before. Big buyers everywhere are eager to tap into these niche, high-conversion networks, which in turn, creates exit opportunities for smaller companies that never would have existed in the past.    For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephaine: Welcome back to Up Next in Commerce. This is your host, Stephanie Postles, and today I'm really excited. We have Kevin Harrington on the show, the OG original shark from Shark Tank and the CEO of Harrington Enterprises. Kevin, welcome. Kevin: Stephanie, thanks for having me. Looking forward to having some fun today. Stephaine: Oh, me too. Your background is so interesting. I feel like I can't even do it justice, going through how you started out in the world of e-commerce. So, I was hoping you could actually touch on that, of where did you start in Ecommerce? Because I see you listed as the original everything. The infomercial guy, the guy who created this stuff. So, I want you to put it in your words how you started out in this industry. Kevin: Okay. Yeah. So, I started... I was a young entrepreneur back in Cincinnati, Ohio, one of six kids, and I had started a... Getting, ordered cable television. And so, I remember I got a 30 channel package. This was, now, early eighties. And so, I'm going through my 30 channels, 24 hours of sports on ESPN and 24 hours of movies on HBO. I get to Channel 30 and there's nothing there. So, I call the cable company and I said, "Hey, look. I love this cable, all these channels, 29 of them. But I'm paying for 30. Nothing on channel, Discovery Channel." Kevin: And so, they said, "Oh, Discovery is our latest channel. It's brand new. They don't have a budget for 24 hours a day. They do an 18 hour a day schedule. Six hours is nothing." And so, that's when the light bulb went off. I'm thinking, "Wait." I said... I literally said to the person, "If I have something to put on that six hours, would you be interested?" "Hey, yeah. Come on down. Talk to us. We're definitely... Whatever you're thinking." Kevin: So, anyway, make a long story short, I started putting products on Discovery Channel back in the early eighties. I then tied up that six-hour block on the nationwide level at the parent, Discovery, which was in now tens of millions of homes. And so... And again, this is back in the early eighties and we were doing the Food Saver, the Jack LaLanne Juicer, the Tony Little Fitness, George Foreman, Billy Mays. We even started getting into mainstream celebrities like Paris Hilton and her lip plumpers and the Kardashians and their skin care and things like this. So, we got involved, and this was early on, the early eighties. Nobody else was doing this, so people call me the inventor of the modern day infomercial. Kevin: So, that's when it all started and we've, over the years, gone public with a few companies. Build them, sell them, build them, sell them. I like entrepreneurship and bringing in the right kind of team of people to help, but... So, as we were then selling products on TV, that was the beginning of my entry into the marketplace and I think as we started getting more sophisticated, things started happening down the road, where we started putting websites. Of course, in the early eighties, websites didn't exist, right? It wasn't until, I believe, around '94 that things started. I mean, Amazon started in '94. I was in business for a dozen years before Amazon ever started. So, selling products direct to the consumer. Kevin: And in the nineties, we started putting websites into our infomercials and wow. All of a sudden, we found a certain percentage of the people, they didn't want to call the operator. They wanted to go straight to that website, get all of the details, and now we found a whole new area business between websites and Amazon and digital and now when you look at Facebook, etc. etc., it's a whole new world. Stephaine: That's awesome. So, what does your role look like today? I read that you have launched more than 20 businesses that have grown to over 100 million in sales each, so I wanted to hear kind of what are you doing today and what kind of principles are you using that you've learned from the many years that you've been doing this? Kevin: So, that first company that I mentioned, we ended up being a public company in a little bit of a complicated transaction. But here we were, public on the New York Stock Exchange. The stock was sitting at a dollar a share and I started bringing the right kind of people on board and you give options and things to people. But make a long story short, a few years later, that stock went to $20, and so I was one of the co-founders and had millions of shares, so this was my first chance to be like... And take some chips off the table, as they say, right? So... Because I was building my business all those years, putting all my own personal cash back into building the business until we had a public company, then I could use other people's money. We had lines of credit and all kinds of amazing things. So, that was the first public company that I got involved with and we had great success with it. So, I thought to myself, look, yes. I can make money selling products, but I can also make money driving share prices in public companies. Kevin: So, since then, fast forward, I like to participate in public companies. I like to be on the board if that's important for me from their standpoint. Also, there's hardcore board of directors of public companies. There's also advisory boards. So, as I invest in companies and take board seats and things, I'm involved now in about north of 10 public companies in some significant fashion, meaning I own equity, shares, board position, advisory seats, whatever. I mean, for example, one of my companies I got involved with five years ago was a little company called CELSIUS and it's an energy drink that... I don't know. Have you ever heard of CELSIUS [crosstalk 00:06:14]? Stephaine: Yes, I've... Yes, I have. Kevin: Okay. So, I got involved at a start-up, CELSIUS. The stock was 22 cents a share and again, I got a nice package when I got involved with these guys. But the stock yesterday hit $19, okay? So, I mean, it's... So, when you think about... When you get in in the beginning and get a big block and that block goes to a big number, that is wealth creation. So, I can talk about national media. I can talk about another one As Seen On TV, another one [inaudible] Travel Biz. I'm involved in various of these pub-cos. Some of them have product, some of them... Most of them have some kind of relation to what I can bring to the table. But I will say this. Almost every single one of them needs the expertise of Ecom and selling and doing digital marketing to create, whether it's customer acquisition or investor acquisition or friendly participant in whatever it might be, the acquisition of names and value to the company. Kevin: So, generally, when I join the board of a public company or the advisory board of a public company, I'll be helping bring some of the things that I've been dealing with and learning about over the last 30-some years in the world of Ecom and internet and digital. So, it... I think my focus now, since I've had great success with helping small pub-cos grow and create value for their shareholders, that's something that's near and dear to me and I love participating in those kind of opportunities. Stephaine: That's awesome. So, how are you able to build buzz or advise your companies to build buzz in the way that you were when you were using traditional media streams like TV? How can you have that same experience online or through word of mouth and conversions online? How are you advising your companies to get that same kind of buzz that you had generated in your past life? Kevin: [inaudible] If we went through... If we take a look at CELSIUS, for example. Let's look at that industry. CELSIUS was a start-up five years ago going against Red Bull and Monster, two of the biggest companies out there that had tremendous shelf space already. So, they started down the path of getting shelf space and they were successful at getting some space here and there, but what we also created was a direct to the consumer side of the business where we started bringing on influencers, big ones like Flo Rida, Khloe Kardashian, etc. And then micro-influencers, fitness influencers. We have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of fitness influencers, micro-influencers, out there on some arrangement that we've made with them to blast all of the information out about CELSIUS, why they love it, why they use it. And these are people... Many of them that approached us because they were users of our product. Kevin: So, now what's happened... So, for example, Flo Rida. He had 26 million followers. He created an amazing buzz to the point where one of his followers and friends was Khloe Kardashian. Well, she said, "Hey, Flo. I love this CELSIUS. Can you get me some cases of it?" So, we're shipping her cases, Flo cases, hundreds of fitness influencers, and now our Amazon business is just crushing it. So, I mean, this is... You can't just sit and wait for it to happen. You got to build the buzz. Kevin: And by the way, there's one thing that I did not say we did. The old days of as seen on TV... I used to spend, some years, as much as $100 million on television. ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, Discovery, Lifetime, all the cable networks, hundreds and hundreds of broadcast stations around the country. But it's very, very expensive and the brand, a product like CELSIUS, in the world of as seen on TV would cost millions, if not tens of millions. So, we chose to go in the newer and much more direct way by utilizing micro-influencers and we've had a great run. The product is now in 165,000 stores, but it's also being supported by the social media influence marketplace. Stephaine: Yeah. I love that. Yeah, really great story. So, someone does not have connections or even maybe a budget big enough to give them even a micro-influencer. What would you suggest to a new DTC startup who's trying to get in front of people? What kind of digital channel are you advising your companies to try out or marketing methods or anything? How would you tell a new person starting out, this is the things that you should look into that are working right now? Kevin: Well, if they don't have the budget, I'd recommend that they go raise some money and get a budget, okay? So... Because if you are in business and you say, "Well, I don't have a budget for the Facebook or Instagram." I mean, this is where you have to test, these outlets, because... I mean, I had a product that somebody brought me two years ago. They had attempted to sell it in stores and on QVC and different places and they got shut down because nobody had ever heard about it. There was no branding. And so, we started running some very inexpensive $5 ads on Facebook and then Instagram and for $5,000 in ads, we brought in $25,000 in credit card orders. Amazing, right? Stephaine: Yeah. That's great. Kevin: Now, these folks that owned the company, we had a partnership now where we're starting to run this and so we were spending 100,000 a week, bringing in 400,000 a week in sales. Making money, paying for itself, unbelievable. So, don't tell me as an entrepreneur, "I don't have the budget." Because for five grand, you can test and you're going to find out. You may be... That... What happens... If you bring in 25,000 in sales off a $5,000 spend, that's self-liquidates, makes money and you're in a big profit position. So, you have to figure out a way to test the digital forces out there. Kevin: The other thing you can do... I know some groups that represent a lot of influencers and there are some people taking aggressive positions, where maybe you could talk them into taking a little equity position in your company in exchange for exposure from groups of influencers, so... Because these big master influencing organizations that have... I know companies, they have 800 influencers that they work with. Well, they pay them, but there's nothing that says they couldn't dribble down some stock or some equity to some of them also, and I think... I'm aware of some companies that are now starting to do equity-based influence marketing and so, I think you're going to see something like that taking storm in the near future. Stephaine: That's really interesting. So, when you're picking companies to either go on their board or help them, what kind of metrics are you looking at for these Ecommerce companies that lets you know whether they're going to be a winner or not? What kind of things are you looking for to pick who you're going to support? Kevin: Well, I like to see that they're spending money on media or influencers or some form of getting distribution. And so, if a company is... They say, "Okay. We've got $100,000 a month budget and $25,000 a week, and we're going to go spend it in an area." I like to see returns on that investment. I like to see at least a one-to-one back, meaning you spend 100,000, you're bringing back 100-plus, at least 100 in sales. But I really prefer to see more like 200 minimum, because now that is now where you're getting to a self-liquidating situation. Kevin: So, the most ideal client or investment for me is when I come into a company that is spending money and actually making money on the spend, but they don't have the money for the media, they don't have the money for the inventory, so they need capital. That is a perfect thing for me because once we plug the capital in, the sales are going to start blossoming and there actually will be self-liquidation so the media, it won't be expensed. It's sort of like an investment to the future profit. So, I think that's... In an ideal scenario, somebody that has a business that has a media spend that's paying for itself. That is, first and foremost, the number one thing that I look for. Stephaine: Well, makes sense. So, for more start-up companies and public companies, do you see them struggling with a lot of the same problems or is it just completely different? And if so, what do you see them hung up on right now, in this environment? Kevin: So, I mean, I think start-ups are different, generally, than public companies. Usually, a public company is working off... The reason they've gone public is because they've figured out a model that generally works and so they want to tell the public, "Hey, look. We've figured this out. We've got the customer acquisition cost figured out and we've got long-term lifetime value of our customers figured out and we just need money to go... And when we go public, we sell stock, we raise money to build the business." Right? Now, that's generally the kind of pub-cos that I like to get involved with. They're kind of over that start-up phase. Kevin: The challenge with start-ups is getting to that point of proof of concept, knowing that you've got something and/or having... And I... Being an old DR guy, back to the old days of selling Ginsu knives and Food Savers and Tony Little Gazelles and Jack LaLanne juicers, I'm an old school guy that likes to see customer acquisition models that work. So, I highly recommend... If a start-up is trying to raise capital, if they can show me an economic model for customer acquisition, I'm in. I mean, it's then a much easier deal because I can see the money is going in and it's going to build the business. I don't like to sink money in that's going to be used for salaries and start-up costs and software and all these things. I like to see money that gets invested into marketing programs that focus on increasing sales and getting new customers. Kevin: So, if a start-up... I mean, if you look at a lot of these modern day start-ups, the Caspers, the Romans, the... I mean, even... There's one. What's the one called? Oh. I'll think of it in just a second, but it's BarkBox, okay? Where people get a box for their dog every month, right? Stephaine: Yep. Kevin: Well, what they were doing was using customer videos. People would open the box every month with their dog and show all the excitement and the fun they were having, and these customer videos were being sent out to millions of people, acquiring new customers. So, they've built a $250 million business with their customers sending out things on Instagram because they were excited about the product. So, they had... They had proof of concept, they had a business model that worked and a customer acquisition model that worked. Stephaine: Very cool. So, what are some... I mean, I'm sure you've seen a lot of different models of customer acquisition. What are some of the most creative ones or timeless ones that continue to work? Kevin: Well, I mean, I think... Let's start with the one I just mentioned because when... This is... BarkBox is a company that, they didn't start on TV like the "as seen on TV." No. That would have cost them millions. They went... They reached out to their customers and so... There's another girl that started a beauty company and she was an intern at Vogue and she went out and started blogging and getting all kinds of information out. She wanted to start her own brand, direct to the consumer, and this is now a billion dollar brand and for some reason, the name of it is escaping me. Kevin: The bottom line is, how did she build a billion dollar company from zero, right? I mean, it was... It's literally amazing. But how she did it was micro-influencers. She recruited 1.7 million micro-influencers and this just took off and built her company into a billion dollar brand. Stephaine: Yep. Kevin: But the bottom line is I had nothing to do with this company. I just watched her and followed her from intern to billion dollar business, and that's exciting for me as an entrepreneur, to see young entrepreneurs doing this. I think the folks that started the businesses Rent The Runway and the clothing companies that, you would get a box every month, those are companies that focused on really tight acquisition costs for their clientele, etc., etc. But I just... I love hearing about these stories, when somebody starts from zero, is an intern at a magazine and a couple years later, running a billion dollar brand. Stephaine: Yep. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. We will look her up and put it in the show notes. Kevin: Okay. Stephaine: So, one last question before we dive also into your book. What big trend or patterns do you see coming to Ecommerce right now? Any disruptions or things that you see impacting Ecommerce in the next year? Kevin: Well, the big old Amazon is up there, kind of waving its big wand over the whole industry in the product side of the business, okay? And so, I will tell you, what's happening is I'm seeing entrepreneurs start a single product business, get it on Amazon and then somebody comes along, wants to buy them. This is pretty cool because you don't have to have a $100 million business, a $50 million business or even 10 million. You could be doing two, three million dollars a year and someone might be willing to pay you eight or 10 million for that. So, I mean, there is an amazing trend right now. I know people, they're doing roll-ups, as they call them. Stephaine: Yep. Kevin: They're buying companies that... They'll buy them on a multiple of sales or earnings and then, as a big company, they've got an attractive blended situation that allows for their multiples to work for them and then packaging these companies and selling them off. So, I think the difference today versus, let's say, me when I was starting close to 40 years ago, back in the early eighties and I'm running Tony Little and Jack LaLanne. We only thought about just selling a lot of product, building these sales and maybe go public. But we weren't selling these brands. We never thought about, "Oh, let me go sell Tony Little's Gazelle product. Let me go sell the Jack LaLanne Juicer as a company." Right? But it's... Kevin: Now, this is what's happening. People that start a product business realize it is a business and it might be worth... If you got a business that's doing 30 million in sales, it could be worth two or three times sales. It might be worth $60 or $90 million. I mean, these are things that people that are entrepreneurs need to explore because the key thing is there are exit strategies for entrepreneurs today, unlike the old days where it was a lot tougher to find somebody to buy an old asset that you had. Stephaine: Yep. I love that. Very inspiring. All right, so you have a new book out, Mentor to Millions. I want to hear a little bit about that. What is the book about? Tell us all the details. Kevin: [crosstalk] Mentor to Millions, it's myself and my co-author, Mark Timm. Now... And actually, it's very interesting. The foreword is buy Tom Ziglar, Zig Ziglar's son, so... Stephaine: Oh, I love Zig Ziglar. Kevin: Oh, yeah. Me too. And Zig was a mentor to me and he was also a mentor to Mark Timm, and the family, after Zig passed away, introduced Mark and I and said, "You guys should be doing business because you're two good guys that my father mentored." And so, make a long story short, this is a book about mentoring. It's a book... I mean, we turned this manuscript in in January, long before there was any real buzz about COVID crisis and the pandemic. But once the pandemic hit, March, April, and our book... It's just coming out now. It actually launches in September, so right now it's only pre-order and I'll tell folks about that. But the bottom line is it's about how to get a mentor, how to find a mentor, how to utilize the mentor in your world, because I have used many mentors in many ways, and what they did for me is they helped me take my business growth exponential. And not just added on business, but geometrically exponential is what happened for me when I got mentored by the right folks. Kevin: So, Mark and I... It's... I'm the mentor in the book and he's the mentee and it's a story of our relationship and the magical transformation that occurs in the process. So, it's a powerful book about mentoring and how and why and where and all of that. But we're pretty excited because Hay House is the publisher, launches next month. We've got a lot of effort going into it and if anybody would be interested in hearing more about it, they can go to kevinmentor.com and there's an explanation of the book and all about the chapters and the follow-through from me mentoring Mark along the way of building his business. So, thanks for asking. I appreciate that, Stephanie. Stephaine: Yep. That's awesome. We will definitely be checking that out. We will link it up and Kevin, thanks so much for joining the show. Kevin: Hey, it was great to be here. Stay safe and healthy. Take care. Stephaine: Thanks, Kevin.

The conversation covers:  Why Kevin helped launch Single Music, where he currently provides SRE and architect duties. Single Music's technical evolution from Docker Swarm to Kubernetes, and the key reasons that drove Kevin and his team to make the leap. What's changed at Single Music since migrating to Kubernetes, and how Kubernetes is opening new doors for the company — increasing stability, and making life easier for developers. How Kubernetes allows Single Music to grow and pivot when needed, and introduce new features and products without spending a large amount of time on backend configurations.  How the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted music sales. Single Music's new plugin system, which empowers their users to create their own middleware. Kevin's current project, which is a series of how-to manuals and guides for users of Kubernetes. Some common misconceptions about Kubernetes. Links Single Music Traefik Labs Twitter: https://twitter.com/notsureifkevin?lang=en Connect with Kevin on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/notsureifkevin Emily: Hi everyone. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and my day job is helping companies position themselves in the cloud-native ecosystem so that their product's value is obvious to end-users. I started this podcast because organizations embark on the cloud naive journey for business reasons, but in general, the industry doesn't talk about them. Instead, we talk a lot about technical reasons. I'm hoping that with this podcast, we focus more on the business goals and business motivations that lead organizations to adopt cloud-native and Kubernetes. I hope you'll join me.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and today I am chatting with Kevin Crawley. And Kevin actually has two jobs that we're going to talk about. Kevin, can you sort of introduce yourself and what your two roles are?Kevin: First, thank you for inviting me on to the show Emily. I appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit about both my roles because I certainly enjoy doing both jobs. I don't necessarily enjoy the amount of work it gives me, but it also allows me to explore the technical aspects of cloud-native, as well as the business and marketing aspects of it. So, as you mentioned, my name is Kevin Crawley. I work at a company called Containous. They are the company who created Traefik, the cloud-native load balancer. We've also created a couple other projects, and I'll talk a little bit about those later. For Containous, I'm a developer advocate. I work both with the marketing team and the engineering team. But also I moonlight as a co-founder and a co-owner of Single Music. And there, I fulfill mostly SRE type duties and also architect duties where a lot of times people will ask me feedback, and I'll happily share my opinion. And Single Music is actually based out of Nashville, Tennessee, where I live, and I started that with a couple friends here.Emily: Tell me actually a little bit more about why you started Single Music. And what do you do exactly?Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. So, the company started out of really an idea that labels and artists—and these are musicians if you didn't pick up on the name Single Music—we saw an opportunity for those labels and artists to sell their merchandise through a platform called Shopify to have advanced tools around selling music alongside that merchandise. And at the time, which was in 2016, there weren't any tools really to allow independent artists and smaller labels to upload their music to the web and sell it in a way in which could be reported to the Billboard charts, as well as for them to keep their profits. At the time, there was really only Apple Music, or iTunes. And iTunes keeps a significant portion of an artist's revenue, as well as they don't release those funds right away; it takes months for artists to get that money. And we saw an opportunity to make that turnaround time immediate so that the artists would get that revenue almost instantaneously. And also we saw an opportunity to be more affordable as well. So, initially, we offered that Shopify integration—and they call those applications—and that would allow those store owners to distribute that music digitally and have those sales reported in Nielsen SoundScan, and that drives the Billboard Top 100. Now since then, we've expanded quite considerably since the launch. We now report on sales for physical merchandise as well. Things like cassette tapes, and vinyl, so records. And you'd be surprised at how many people actually still buy cassette tapes. I don't know what they're doing with them, but they still do. And we're also moving into the live streaming business now, with all the COVID stuff going on, and there's been some pretty cool events that we've been a part of since we started doing that, and bands have gotten really elaborate with their live production setups and live streaming. To answer the second part of your question, what I do for them, as I mentioned, I mostly serve as an advisor, which is pretty cool because the CTO and the developers on staff, I think there's four or five developers now working on the team, they manage most of the day-to-day operations of the platform, and we have, like, over 150 Kubernetes pods running on an EKS cluster that has roughly, I'd say, 80 cores and 76 gigabytes of RAM. That is around, I'd say about 90 or 100 different services that are running at any given time, and that's across two or three environments, just depending on what we're doing at the time.Emily: Can you tell me a little bit about the sort of technical evolution at Single? Did you start in 2016 on Kubernetes? That's, I suppose, not impossible.Kevin: It's not impossible, and it's something we had considered at the time. But really, in 2016, Kubernetes, I don't even think there wasn't even a managed offering of Kubernetes outside of Google at that time, I believe, and it was still pretty early on in development. If you wanted to run Kubernetes, you were probably going to operate it on-premise, and that just seemed like way too high of a technical burden. At the time, it was just myself and the CTO, the lead developer on the project, and also the marketing or business person who was also part of the company. And at that time, it was just deemed—it was definitely going to solve the problems that we were anticipating having, which was scaling and building that microservice application environment, but at the time, it was impractical for myself to manage Kubernetes on top of managing all the stuff that Taylor, the CTO, had to build to actually make this product a reality. So, initially, we launched on Docker Swarm in my garage, on a Dell R815, which was like a, I think was 64 cores and 256 gigs of RAM, which was, like, overkill, but it was also, I think it cost me, like, $600. I bought it off of Craigslist from somebody here in the area. But it served really well as a server for us to grow into, and it was, for the most part, other than electricity and the internet connection into my house, it was free. And that was really appealing to us because we really didn't have any money. This was truly a grassroots effort that we were just—we believed in the business and we thought we could quickly ramp up to move into the Cloud. So, that's exactly what happened though. Like, we started making money—also, this was never my full-time job. I started traveling a lot for my other developer relations role. I worked at Instana before Containous. Eventually, the whole GarageOps thing just wasn't stable for the business anymore. I remember one time, I think I was in Scotland or somewhere, and it was, like, two o'clock in the morning at home here in Nashville, and the power went out. And I have a battery backup, but the power went out long enough to where the server shut down, and then it wouldn't start back up. And I literally had to call my wife at two o'clock in the morning and walk her through getting that server back up and running. And at that point in time, we had revenue, we had money coming in and I told Taylor and Tommy that, “Hey, we're moving this to AWS when I get back.” So, at that point, we moved into AWS. We just kind of transplanted the virtual machines that were running Docker Swarm into AWS. And that worked for a while, but up until earlier this year, it became really apparent that we needed to switch the platform to something that was going to serve us over the next five years.Emily: First of all, is ‘GarageOps' a technical term?Kevin: I mean, I just made it up.Emily: I love it.Kevin: I mean, it was just one of those things where we thought it was a really good idea at the time, and it worked pretty well because, in reality, everything that we did, up into that point was all webhook-based, it was really technically simple. But anything that required a lot of bandwidth like the music itself, it went directly into AWS into their S3 buckets, and it was served from there as well. So, there wasn't really any of this huge bandwidth constraint that we had to think about, that ran in our application itself. It was just a matter of really lightweight JSON REST API calls that you could serve from a residential internet connection if you understand how to set all that stuff up. And at the time, I mean, we were using Traefik, which version 1.0 at the time, and it worked really well for getting all this set up and getting it all working, and we leveraged that heavily. And at that time in 2016, there wasn't any competitor to Traefik. You would use HAProxy or you use NGINX, and both of those required a lot of hand-holding, and a lot of configuration, and it was all manual, and it was a nightmare. And one of the cool things about Docker Swarm and Traefik is that once I had all the tooling set up, it all sort of just ran itself. And the developers, I don't know around 2017 or '18, we had hired another developer on the staff. And realistically, if they wanted to define a new service, they didn't have to talk to me at all. All they did was create a new repo in GitHub, change some configuration files in the tooling we had built—or that I had built—and then they would push their code to GitLab, and all the automation would just take over and deploy their new service, and it would become exposed on the internet, if it was that type of a service, it was an API. And it would all get routed automatically. And it was really, really nice for me because I really was just there in case of the power went out in my garage, essentially.Emily: You said that up until earlier this year, this was more or less working, and then earlier this year, you really decided it wasn't working anymore. What exactly wasn't working?Kevin: There were a few different things that led us to switching, and the main one was it seemed like that every six to twelve months, the database backend on the Swarm cluster would fall over. For whatever reason, it would just—services would stop deploying, the whole cluster would seemingly lock up. It would still work, but you just couldn't deploy or change anything, and there was really no way to fix it because of how complicated and how I want to say how complex the actual databases and the data that's been stored in it because it's mostly just stateful records of all the changes that you've made to the cluster up until that point. And there was no real easy way to fix that other than just completely tearing everything down and building it up from scratch. And with all the security certificates, and the configuration that was required for that to work, it would literally take me anywhere between five to ten hours to tear everything apart, tear everything down, set up the worker nodes again, and get everything reestablished so that we could deploy services again, and the system was accepting webhooks from Shopify, and that was just way too long. Earlier this year, actually we crossed into, I want to say in January, we had over 1400 merchants in Shopify sending us thousands of orders every day, and it just wasn't acceptable for us to have that length of downtime 15, 20, 35 minutes, that's fine but several hours just wasn't going to work.Our reputation up until that point had been fairly solid. That issue or incident hadn't happened in the past eight months, but we were noticing some performance issues in the cluster, and in some cases where we were having to redeploy services two, three times for those services to apply, and that was sort of like a leading indicator that something was going to go wrong pretty soon. And it was just a situation where it was like, “Well, if we're going to have to go offline anyways, let's just do the migration.” And it just so happened that in April, I was laid off from my job at Instana and I was fortunate enough to be able to find a new job in, like, a week, but I knew that I wanted to complete this migration, so I went ahead and decided to put off starting the new job for a month. And that gave me the means, and the opportunity and the motive to actually complete this migration. There were some other factors that played into this as well, and that included the fact that in order to get Swarm stood up in 2016, I had to build a lot of bespoke tooling for the developers and for our CI/CD system to manage these services in the staging and production environment, handling things like promotion and also handling things like understanding what versions of the services are running in the cluster at any given time, and these are all tools that are widely available today in Kubernetes. Things like K9s, or Lens, or Helm, Kustomize, Skaffold, these are all tools that I essentially had to build myself in 2016 just to support a microservice environment, and it didn't make sense for us to continue maintaining that tooling and having to deal with some of their limitations because I didn't have time to keep that tooling fresh and keep it up-to-date and competitive with what's in the landscape today, which are the tools that I just described. So, it just made so much sense to get rid of all that stuff and replace it with the tools that are available today by the community and has infinitely more resources poured into them than I was ever able to provide, or I will ever be able to provide even as a single person working on a project. The one that was sort of lingering in the background was the fact that we have here recently started doing album releases, and artists are coming to us where they will sell hundreds of thousands of albums within a very short period of time, within several hours, and we were reaching the constraints of some of our database and our backend systems to where we needed to scale those horizontally. We had, kind of, reached the vertical limits of some of them, and we knew that Kubernetes was going to give us these capabilities through the modern operator pattern, and through just the stateful tooling that has matured in Kubernetes that wasn't even there in 2016, and wasn't something that we could consider, but we can now because the ecosystem has matured so much.Emily: So, yeah, it sounds like basically you were running up against some technical problems that were on the verge of becoming major business problems: the risk of downtime, and the performance issues, and then it also sounds like some of the technical architecture was limiting the types of products, the types of services that you could have. Does that sound about right?Kevin: Yeah, that's a pretty good summary of it. I think that one of the other things that we had to consider too was that the Single ecosystem, like the Single Music line of products has become so wide and so vast—I think we're coming up on five or six different product lines now—and developers need an 8 core laptop with 32 gigs of RAM just to stand up our stack because we're starting to use things like Kafka and Postgres to do analytics on all this stuff, and we're probably going to get to the point within the next 18 months to where we can't even stand up the full Single Music stack on a local machine. We're going to have to leverage Kubernetes in the Cloud for developers to even build additional products into the platform. And that's just not possible with Swarm, but it is with Kubernetes.Emily: Tell me a little bit about what has changed since making the migration to Kubernetes. And I'm actually also curious, the timeframe when this happened is really interesting, and you talked a little bit about offering these streaming services for musicians. I mean, it's an interesting time to be in the music industry. Interesting, probably in both the exciting sense and also negative sense. But how have things changed? And how has Kubernetes made things possible that maybe wouldn't have been possible otherwise?Kevin: I think right now, we're still on the precipice, or on the leading edge of really realizing the capabilities that Kubernetes has unlocked for the business. I think right now, I mean, the main benefit of it has been just a overwhelming sense of comfort and ease that has been instilled into our business side of the company, our executive side, if you will. The marketing and—of course, the sales and marketing people don't really know that much about the technical challenges that the engineering side has, and what kind of risk we were at when we were using Swarm at the time, but the owner did. There's three co-owners of the company, it's myself, Taylor, and Tommy. And Taylor, of course, is the CTO, and he is very well have the risk because he is deeply invested in the platform and understands how everything works. Now, Tommy, on the other hand, he just cares, “Is it up?” Are customers getting what their orders—are they getting their music delivered? And so, right now it's just there's a lot more confidence in the platform behaving and operating like it should. And that's a big relief for the engineers working on the project because they don't have to worry about whether or not the latest version of their service that they deployed has actually been deployed; or if the next time they deploy, are they going to bring down the entire infrastructure because the Swarm database corrupts, or because the Swarm network doesn't communicate correctly like it missed routes. We had issues where staging versions of our application would answer East-West traffic—like East-West request traffic that is supposed to go in between the services that are running in the cluster—like staging instances would answer requests that were coming from production instances when they weren't supposed to. And it's really hard to troubleshoot those problems, and it's really hard to resolve those. And so right now it's just a matter of stability. The other thing that is enabling us to do is handle the often difficult task of managing database migrations, as well as topic migrations, and, really, one-off type jobs that would happen every once in a while just depending on new products being introduced or new functionality to existing products being introduced. And these would require things like migrations in the data schema. And this used to have to be baked into the application itself, and this was really sometimes kind of tricky to manage when you start talking about applications that have multiple replicas, but with Kubernetes, you can do things like tasks, and jobs, and things that are more suited towards these one-off type activities that you don't have to worry about a bunch of services running into each other and stepping on each other's feet anymore. So, this, again, just gives a lot of comfort and peace of mind to developers who have to work on this stuff. And it also gives me peace of mind because I know ultimately, that this stuff is just going to work as long as they follow the best practices of deploying a Kubernetes manifest and Kubernetes objects, and so I don't have to worry about them breaking things per se, in a way in which they aren't able to troubleshoot, diagnose, and ultimately fix themselves. So, it just creates less maintenance overhead for me because as I mentioned at the beginning of the call, I don't get paid by Single Music, unless of course, they go public or they sell. But I'm not actually a full-time employee. I'm paid by Containous, that's my full-time job, so anything that allows me to have that security and have less maintenance work on my weekends is hugely beneficial to my well being and my peace of mind, as well. Now, the other part of the question you had, as well, is in terms of how are we transitioning, and how are we handling the ever-changing landscape of the business? I think one of the things that Kubernetes lets us do really well is pivot and introduce these new ideas and these new concepts, and these new services to the world. We get to release new features and products all the time because we're not spending a ton of time having to figure out, “Well, how do I spin up a new VM, and how do I configure the load balancer to work, and how do I configure a new schema in the database?” The stuff, it's all there for us already to use, and that's the beauty of the whole cloud-native ecosystem is that all these problems have been solved and packaged in a nice little bundle for us to just scoop up, and that enables our business to innovate and move fast. I mean, we try not to break things, but we do. But for the most part, we are just empowered to deliver value to our customers. And for instance the whole live-streaming thing, we launched that over the course of, maybe, a week. It took us a week to build that product and build that capability, and of course, we've had to invest more time into it as time has gone on because not only do our customers see value in it, we see value in it, and we see value in investing additional engineering and business marketing hours into selling that product. And so again, it's just a matter of what Kubernetes, and the cloud-native ecosystem in general—and this includes Swarm to some extent because we could not have gotten to where we did without Swarm in the beginning, and I want to give it its proper dues because, for the most part, it worked really well, and it served our needs, but it got to the point where we kind of outgrew it, and we wanted to offload the managing of our orchestrator to somebody else. We didn't want to have to manage it anymore. And Kubernetes gave us that.Emily: It sounds like, particularly when we're talking about the live streaming product, that you were able to build something really quickly that not only helped Single's business but then obviously also helped a lot of musicians, I'm assuming at least. So, this was a way to not just help your own business, but also help your customers successfully pivot in a time of fairly large upheaval for their industry.Kevin: Right. And I think one of the cool things that we experienced through the pandemic is that we saw a fairly sharp rise in sales in general in music, and I think it kind of speaks to the human nature. And what I mean by that, is that music is something that comforts people and gives people hope, and also it's an outlet. It's a way for people to, I don't want to say, disconnect because that's not really what I mean, but it gives them a means to experience something outside of themselves. And so it wasn't really that big of a surprise for us to see our numbers increase. And, I mean, the only thing that kind of did surprise—I mean, it's not a surprise now in retrospect, but one of the things that we observed as well, as soon as all the George Floyd protests started happening across the United States, the numbers conversely dropped, and at that point, we realized that there was something more important going on in the world. And we expected that and we were… it was just an interesting observation for us. And right now, I mean, we're still seeing growth, we're still seeing more artists and more bands coming online, trying to find new ways to innovate and to try to sell their music and their artwork, and we love being a part of that, so we're super stoked about it.Emily: That actually might be a good spot for us to wrap up, but I always like to give guests the opportunity to just say anything that they feel like has gone unsaid.Kevin: Well, I mean, one of the things I do want to talk about a little bit is some of the stuff that we're doing at Containous as well. As a developer advocate, I think one of the things that I really enjoy in that aspect is that this gives me an opportunity to work closely with engineers in a way in which—a lot of times, they don't have an opportunity to experience the marketing and the business side of the product, and the fact that I can interact with my community and I can work with our open-source contributors and help the engineers realize the value of that is incredible. A few things that I've done at Containous since I've joined is we are working really hard at improving our documentation and improving the way in which developers and engineers consume the Traefik product. We also are working on a service mesh, which is a really cool way for services to talk to each other. But one of the things that we've recently launched two that I want to touch on is our plugin system, which is a fairly highly requested feature in Traefik. And we launched it with Pilot, which is a new product that allows the users of Traefik to install these plugins that manipulate the request before it gets sent to the service. And that means our end-users are now empowered to create their own middleware, in essence. They're able to create their own plugins. And this allows them really unlimited flexibility in how they use the Traefik load balancer and proxy. The other thing that we're working on, too, is improving support for Kubernetes. One of the surprises that I had when migrating from Traefik version 1 to Traefik 2, when we did the Single migration to Kubernetes, was once I figured out the version two configuration, it was really easy to make that migration, but it was difficult at first to make the translation between the version 1 schema of the configuration into the version 2. So, what we're working on and what I'm working on right now with our technical writer, is a series of how-tos and guides for users of Kubernetes to be empowered in the same way that we are at Single Music to quickly and easily manage and deploy their microservices across their cluster. With that, though, I mean, I do want to talk one more thing, on maybe some misconceptions about cloud-native and Kubernetes.Emily: Oh, yes, go ahead.Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that I hear a lot of is that Kubernetes is really hard; it's complex. And at first, it can seem that way; I don't want to dispute that, and I don't want to dismiss or minify people's experience. But once those basic concepts are out of the way, I think Kubernetes is probably one of the easiest platforms I've ever used in terms of managing the deployment and the lifecycle of applications and web services. And I think probably the biggest challenge is for organizations and for engineers who are trying to adopt Kubernetes is that in some ways, perhaps they're trying to make Kubernetes work for applications and services that weren't designed from the ground up to work in a cloud-native ecosystem. And that was one of the things that we had the advantage of in 2016 was even though we were using Docker Swarm, we still followed something which was called the ‘Twelve-Factor App' principle. And those principles really just laid us out for a course of smooth uninterrupted, turbulence-free flying. And it's been really an amazing journey because of how simple and easy that transition from Docker Swarm into Kubernetes was, but if we had built things the old way, using maybe Packer and AMIs and not really following the microservice route, and hard coding a bunch of database URLs and keys and all kinds of things throughout our application, it would have been a nightmare. So, I want to say to anybody who is looking at adopting Kubernetes, and if it looks extremely daunting and technically challenging, it may be worth stepping back and looking at what you're trying to do with Kubernetes and what you're trying to put into it, and if there needs to be some reconciliation at what you're trying to do with it before you actually go forth and use something like Kubernetes, or containers, or this whole ecosystem for that matter.Emily: Let me go ahead and ask you my last question that I ask everybody which is, do you have a software engineering tool that you cannot live without, that you cannot do your job without? If so, what is it?Kevin: Yeah, I mean, Google's probably… [laughs] seriously, it's one of my most widely used tools as a developer, or as a software engineer, but in terms of, like, it really depends on the context of what I'm working in. If I'm working on Single Music, I would have to say the most widely used tool that I use for that is Datadog Because we have all of our telemetry going to there. And Datadog gives me a very fast and rapid understanding of the entire environment because we have metrics, we have traces, and we have logs all being shipped there. And that helps us really deep dive and understand when there's any type of performance regression, or incident happening in our cluster in real-time.As far as what my critical tooling at Containous is, because I work in Marketing and because I work more in an educational-type atmosphere there, one of the tools that I have started to lean on heavily is something most people probably haven't heard of, and this is for managing the open-source community. It's something called Bitergia. And it's an analytics platform, but it helps me understand the health of the open-source community, and it helps me inform the engineering team of the activity around multiple projects, and who's contributing, and how long is it taking for issues and pull requests to be closed and merged? What's our ratio of pull requests and issues being closed for certain reasons. And these are all interesting business-y analytics that is important for our entire engineering organization to understand because we are an open-source company, and we rely heavily on our community for understanding the health of our business.Emily: And speaking of, how can listeners connect with you?Kevin: There's a couple different ways. One is through just plain old email. And that is kevin.crawley@containous—that's C-O-N-T-A-I-N-O—dot U-S. And also through Twitter as well. And my handle is @notsureifkevin. It's kind of like the Futurama, “Not sure if serious.” I mean, those are the two ways.Emily: All right. Well, thank you so much. This was very, very interesting.Kevin: Well, it was my pleasure. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me, and I look forward to listening to the podcast.Emily: Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned just a little bit more about The Business of Cloud Native. If you'd like to connect with me or learn more about my positioning services, look me up on LinkedIn: I'm Emily Omier, that's O-M-I-E-R, or visit my website which is emilyomier.com. Thank you, and until next time.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

James: Hi, listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Valued Real Estate Investing Podcast. Last week, we had Rich Fishman(?) with 8,000 units. Almost half of which he owns by himself and he had bought over 20 years across five to six different states. And he gave us an outstanding overview of what happened during the crash of 2008. Was it true that everybody needs a roof above their heads? And that's what a lot of gurus are telling us in multifamily or is it true that multifamily has the lowest default rate? You will definitely need to listen to that podcast. Because he went through the whole downturn with all his multifamily(s) and came back up after the cycle and he gave a lot of awesome perspectives. Today, we have Kevin Bob. Hey Kevin, do you want to introduce yourself? Kevin: Hey James, I'm excited to be here. Yeah, I'll give you the quick overview for sure. So, I have been investing full time in real estate going for on 20 years now and I got started like a lot of folks did with single-family investments. It was just what my mentor was doing. It's what he was good at and what he taught me and so I didn't reinvent the wheel. I did exactly what he told me to do and that evolved into multifamily investments and other types of commercial real estate. That led me up to the crash of 2008. That's a very challenging time. It kind of was reborn in 2011, 2012 and was introduced then to mobile home parks. Which is what we focus on today. So, for the past seven years now, we've been solely focused on mobile home communities. We own parks in thirteen different places throughout the US and that's our niche of choice as of now. James: Awesome. Awesome. I mean, Kevin is being very humble. So, just to give you guys some background when I was in my W2 job, one of the first podcasts that I listened to was Kevin's podcast. I mean, the podcast is called Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow With Kevin Bob and it's an awesome podcast. It focuses a lot on commercial real estate and I really learned a lot when I was in W2 and I was listening to it in the car. Are you still doing the podcast, Kevin? Kevin: I am. Absolutely. I do two podcasts. So, I do the Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow Podcast and then about three and a half years ago I thought it was a good idea to start a second podcast as if I wasn't busy enough already. And I started the Mobile Home Park Investing Podcast, which is specific to that topic. James: Got it. Got it. Kevin: James, I remember the first day we met. Not to interrupt you but I always joke with you every time I see you because I got a weird memory. I forget a lot of things but I remember the odd things and I do those free Friday calls. I've been doing it for like five years now. And I remember that's how you and I originally met. It was during one of those 30-minute calls on a Friday and I don't recall why I remember this part of our call but I had been making lunch with my Bluetooth in while we were talking about a multifamily deal that you were taking down in San Antonio, Texas. James: Yeah, it was my second deal. I was buying 174 and have you found it on our yellow letter marketing campaign. It is very interesting because when you had your podcast, you announced it that you're giving thirty minutes of your time and I was like, ‘Wow, that's awesome. I'm going to talk to a celebrity.’ Right now, I do offer like fifteen minutes of my time for whoever wants to talk to me. You just have to send me an email at jamesatachieveinvestmentgroup.com. We're not big celebrities.  We're just normal people. Kevin: I get as much value from those calls as the person on the other side. That's how I like to think and you just never know who you're going to meet on the other end of the phone, right? I mean, that's how I that's how you and I met. You just never know and so I think that you have to keep that normalcy in your life and I enjoy those calls. I’ve met a lot of great people on the way. James: Surprisingly, I still remember the day you called me and the moment you called me. I'm not sure why but that was like probably five, six years ago. And I don't remember my other calls. Kevin:  Yeah, yeah. I have been on for five years. Yeah. James: Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome. So, I mean, I want to dive deeper into mobile home parks. I can see you have like a 150 million real estate transaction. Is it all mobile home park? How many parks do you own right now? And can you give those kinds of details? Kevin: No, we don't have. Our current portfolios are not 150 million. That's just that's like my transaction for the principal. You know, investments over the years. James: Thanks for being honest, Kevin. Because a lot of people misuse those big numbers to do their marketing and then we find out they don't have anything. They're probably on a passive investor and that's really awesome that you're being very upfront with that. Kevin: Yeah, I’m the majority principal in the parks we own as far as on the GP side and things like that. So, we'll get that clarity out there as well. James: Awesome. Kevin: We're not really sellers. So, to answer your questions about what we own today. We've been teetering around like the 2,000 mark. We go above it. We go below. We have a park that going to be closed in a week and a half. We sold a park earlier this year and then we're going be selling one in probably February next year. That's in contract currently. We got one that we're closing on in 45 days, which is 215 lots and so we keep teetering around this 1900-2000 mark. We've really been evolving our portfolio by selling off some of the smaller properties and by selling off some of the properties that we don't really have an interest in scaling in a particular marketplace or maybe it's just one that just doesn't fit our model moving forward. I don't know how else to answer it other than that. So, that's where we're at today. We're really long-term cash flow investors, though. That really is our business model. It just as far as the selling side of things I like to take advantage of an opportunity when it arises. That's one thing I did not do before 2008. I never would sell anything and it came back to bite me at that point. So, I am not a seller. However, I will sell when the timings right the price is right. James: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about that experience. Because I heard about that in your podcast and so you are doing single-family homes before 2008 and you were doing very well. Kevin: And multifamily but mostly single-family was our focus. That was our business model. It's what we were very competent at. We had acquired a few hundred multifamily doors over the years almost by accident. We didn't really put much effort into it because deals would just come our way like small multifamily stuff. Thirty-six units forty-eight-unit type properties that we just kind of threw into our rental pool. However, the biggest part of our model and the thing that took the most time and energy was a single-family. You know, buying the single-family rental properties and managing a portfolio across multiple different counties was just very inefficient. And it's unfortunate because I think we just got very complacent with our model. You know, we were we felt we were really good at it and we never took the time to be honest with ourselves about how inefficient that was and that we should have just taken our efforts and converted them over to multifamily at that given moment. I think that we would have fared through the downturn a lot better. The single-family properties… it wasn't really the single family that sunk us during the downturn. It was a whole mixture of ingredients. You know, Florida was ground zero for the crash. A lot of our properties, not only did they lose within a year but they also were upside down. Our leverage point on the front side was originally somewhere in between the 65% to 68% range. So, we were very low leverage. Most of them were upside down underwater within a year. Another big thing in Florida that really was a major impact on us was there were a lot of speculative single-family builds happening back then. I don't know if you remember back in that heyday. I guess you could say that was back when a new build property in like Vegas or Phoenix or Southwest Florida would literally flip three times before it was ever even occupied. Before it was ever finished. It was crazy. There was like thousands of new home builds happening in Southwest Florida for a population that wasn't really coming in. So, the big nail in the coffin for us back then was a lot of these builders that had these properties who weren't selling and they started renting them out. And so now, they started pulling the populations away from our rental properties and they offered better incentives. Because what they had was a new product. So, we had an occupancy issue. We were under wonder water value and like it's just a perfect storm and it was ugly. It wasn't fun at all. And the banks at that point weren’t willing to work with us. This was like a year within entering into this downturn. The banks didn't have loss mitigation departments. They weren't prepared for this and so we struggled with a majority of our lenders to even do work out deals or loan modifications. James: Yeah, I read some books about how the lenders can be nasty during the downturn but now they're super nice. Kevin: I think they got a lot more flexible. Because they had to. In the first year of the downturn, no one knew how bad it was really going to get. It was like ‘Are we at the bottom? Are we at the bottom?’ I feel like that question was asked for many years before it's like, ‘wow, it's 2011 and it's still messed up like things are still fairly bad.’ You know, I think it took the bank's a while to realize that and they even put the infrastructure in place to manage all these defaults. It was a disaster for the banks as well. I mean, they had more defaults than… they had to build entire departments within their companies to manage this onslaught of default. So yeah, it was a challenging time for everybody. James: Do you think you could have done better if you had a lot of non-recourse loans? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, as far as my personal assets being attacked and things of that nature absolutely. And I think there is also a lot more flexibility with the non-recourse lenders to work with a borrower because they have quite a bit of leverage. You know, another thing that hurt us pretty badly on our part was a lot of our apartment properties and a lot of the commercial loans and a lot of times we would package up like eight to ten or twelve single-family properties and put a commercial loan on and it takes money out. That was kind of our model. A lot of that debt was shorter-term recourse debt. It was five years,you know, either resets or five-year balloons, twenty-year [inaudible10:23]. What happens we didn’t default on multifamily. However, after all the credits were going bad on the single-family stuff and we started having issues there. We couldn't get new loans when the time came due for them a couple of years later. We couldn't get any debt in place. We had to sell things for basically fire sale prices and give them away. We basically either gave it back to the bank or did some minor workouts, did short sales or had to sell at fire-sale prices. It is what it is. I learned a lot from that period and things move on and I've learned a lot from it. And I think I'm a stronger investor and a better investor nowadays because of it. James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you brought up three or four cities that are very, very high growth right now.  We’re at the late stage of this cycle. Which is similar to 2008 before that. They are Phoenix, Las Vegas and Florida, right. So, do you think we're in the same stage right now because they are one of the highest growth rental rates for multifamily? I would say I'm not sure how much you would be able to compare multifamily at that time.    Kevin: I think the reasons behind the crash back then are a little different. I mean, back then the lenders were so loosey-goosey. Because anyone could get a loan and I mean anyone. Even a waiter who just started the job yesterday. Who had no provable income could get a loan on a property. You know that that's one thing that hasn't gone back to the way it used to be, lending restrictions are still very tight. So, I don't think that we have that fear. I'm not an economist and by no means am I an expert here but I don't think our fear should be related to anything that was similar to back in the 2007, 2008 crisis and what caused that. So, I'm not sure what it could be. I know that there's a huge demand for multifamily. There’s a pent-up demand for supply still in a lot of these markets based on population growth. I think that the bigger risk lies and like A class stuff or like some new developments as far as like, you know, the game of musical chairs. It’s about who's ultimately left holding the bag. I think that what you do as far as like BNC grade apartment complexes are very similar to our business and that as long as you provide a clean, safe and high-quality product at affordable prices. There's always going to be a demand for it no matter what happens. I'm a firm believer in that and that's played out time and time and time again and that you were making mention of the last guest you had on. I'm going to give listen to the show but what was his take? You know, what did he tell you was the ultimate outcome of his multifamily holdings through that downturn? James: Yeah, it was very hard for him during that downturn. I mean, He has to cut down a lot of it and if I remember correctly the default rate was pretty high. It was like almost 8% where a lot of people did lose their property to the banks. Kevin: I wonder if that was because they were over leveraged but I'm not talking about him though. I was talking about the operators. See that's it leading up to that recession and the last time people were overpaying for apartment complexes and if you recall one of the big the big hot trends were buying an apartment and doing a condo conversion. So, you saw people buying apartment complexes for valuations that had no relative nature to the actual NOI that was in place. It was all based on a pro forma exiting out as individual condos and a lot of those condo things failed miserably. Anyway, how did the guy you interviewed fare? James: I think he was not talking about condo conversion. He was just talking… Kevin: I mean as far as multifamily investments. How did he fare? How did his investment go? James: He did say that it was pretty bad for him and for a lot his friends and who were buying at that time. Kevin: Specific markets or…? James: Across the country and he has been down twenty years right now. I mean, he has like a thousand units right now. The key thing is I mean everybody says ‘everybody needs a roof over their head.’  But he's a says that people become creative on how to get a roof above that they’re head. They double up. They live in their basement. So, it's not like everybody's going… Kevin: Yeah. Well, I think another thing that changes is  the quality of your prospect changes as well. You know, people lose their jobs. People miss payments on their credit cards.  They get bad credit. They get into this revolving cycle or downward spiral. And so, although everyone does need a roof over your head, the quality of that prospect might change. It might actually deteriorate over time but what you can really get to fill that unit which a lower quality resident typically is going to equate in a higher turnover, rate higher expense and maintenance costs associated with running that property. So, I think that there are other factors that are derivative of a downturn  even though everyone does really need a roof over their head. James: Do you think the optimism that you had or the entire market had before 2008 crash like in 2006…  I'm sure everybody was optimistic. Nobody knew about the subprime mortgage. Because nobody really knew in detail, right? Do you think that the optimism that people had during those few years before the crash is the same as now? Kevin: There's some Deja vu that I've had and I think maybe a lot of that has to do with even just watching like social media feeds and things of that nature. A lot of the kudos and congrats are given to folks just because they like buy a property and that’s only a part of it. James: They just started running. They haven’t done the marathon yet. Kevin:  It not what it looks like today but it’s can you execute the plan accordingly? What does it look like three years from now? Because you bought something doesn't mean that you've won yet. It's easy enough to get on the front side. So, that's a different form of that optimism. James: Social media has increased the FOMO syndrome. Kevin: Yeah, that's it. Success seems to be equated on social media to actually just doing a deal. Whatever it means to get the deal done: overpaying for it, over raising investor capital, putting capital your investors capital risk. I mean buying bad markets and I think that was a very similar sentiment that was shared by a lot of people back prior to the crash. ‘If we don't buy now, there's like anything left. We’re going to get priced out of every market and then will never own real estate. Let's buy whatever we can. Let's get that 95% loan.’ So again, the lending standards have not gone back to what they were then. Which was a big cause of that crash. But I do think that there's some Deja vu that I've had.  You know, the FOMO thing… the fear that you’re missing out, that's real. We've seen things be much more competitive over the past year. We bought nine properties last year and we wound up buying two this year. So, we did get side-tracked a little bit this year with building a property management company. And we that's another discussion but even then, I don't think we would have bought more than maybe three or four properties. If that was our sole focus but we're very conservative. I think we had seven or eight deals in contracts that we ended up killing… for various reasons.  There just a lot of hairy things out there and you can make money with hairy deals but you got to really know what you're getting a deal go to. James: Yeah, exactly. I mean, that the experience of going through the crash will make you’re really a conservative person, right? Because people have never gone through it [inaudible17:59] including me. I didn't go through it. So, I didn't know how painful it was, right?  But I do read a lot of publications and try to feel the fear at that time. I mean, you can be too much of an optimist. I'm not so engaged in the height of optimism right now. So, you did single family and you went through this 2008 crash and suddenly you started doing mobile home park. Why that mobile home park asset class and why not go back to the single-family apartments? Kevin: Well, it's a great question. So, I answer the second part of that question first about why not go back to like single family properties. You know, I finally had an internal point of reflection probably like two years after the crash started. There were a couple years where it was pretty challenging to even think about what was happening in my life. So, there were a couple years, I don't like to say that I put my head in the sand and buried it. But somewhere around, 2010 to 2011 I would go through like a reflection point in my life where I tried to look back and just really be honest myself like, ‘what I should have done differently.’ What I ultimately felt went wrong and I came to a quick realization and I kind of knew it back then.  You know, you're comfortable and complacent you know we should have made the switch. Our model is very inefficient with the single-family properties. You know, running multiple maintenance crews and management crews amongst many different counties. You know, having a home here, a home over there, home over there, hundred something that way. It was incredibly inefficient and it was very hard to scale. You know like just going out and trying to buy one by one by one and buying a hundred and twenty, a hundred and fifty, two hundred single family properties is a lot of work. That’s two hundred individual closings. That takes a lot of effort to make that happen. And you'll being honest with myself, I knew that those same efforts could have been multiplied like 10 x but by actually putting that effort into multifamily and that multifamily is much more efficient to operate. It could truly provide that cash flow and help me get back on top much faster than trying to go back into the single-family space. I didn't have an interest in the single-family. It was what I was taught at a young age and I rolled with it and I did really well with it. And then now, I felt more grown-up and it was time to make a big change in my life and I knew multifamily is going be it. And so I went on this exploration journey, knowing that it was going to be multifamily. What I wanted to do, James, I wanted to go back and talk to everyone. I went on a six-month binge of interviewing and talking to everyone I could, locally and on the phone, who have either been in the multifamily and made it through the crash and you'll just get a sense from them how things have changed today?  How the landscape has changed? I always spoke to those who just got their start. You know, what's their perceived notion of the next couple of years? What the lending environment look like? Where are they finding opportunities? Where was the risk? I just wanted to get an update because I basically stepped away for years from real estate. And things had changed over those three or four years, right? And during this period, I was introduced to a guy named Randy through a mutual friend. And Randy had mobile home parks here in Florida. He owned three of them. He had been a banker for thirty years and I like meeting new people. So, I said ‘let's grab lunch. You’re local to me. So, let's grab lunch.’ And we did. I didn't go there with the intent of like, ‘I want to learn about mobile home parks.’ I just wanted to meet someone new who had been quite successful in their life. And that after like a two-hour lunch with Randy I walked away, saying ‘I'm going to buy a mobile home park.’ I need to either prove or disprove all these great things that Randy had to say about this niche and this asset class. And that's what I did. It took me about 12 months.  I bought a park up in Atlanta. We still own it today. It was a small part of a highly distressed Park and I bought that one and then I bought a second one and I bought a third one. I just spent a couple of years of my own money proving the concept. And then ultimately once we proved the concept and went full cycle on a few things. I went out and actually built a business out of it.  Where we started hiring multiple team members and investors into the game and that's where we're at today. James: What were the top three ‘aha’ moments from that discussion with Randy in that one-hour lunch that you had with him? Kevin: Yeah, and this isn't to compare multifamily to mobile home parks. I mean, but this is what he told me. This is how his conversation went with me. He was like ‘You know, the bottom line being C class apartment complex is great. Everyone needs to roof over their head.’ Just like we talked about. Affordable housing is in high demand and that demand… James: And what year was this? Kevin: This is in 2011. James:  2011 which is supposed to be one of the lowest and best times to buy. I guess, right? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely and so he went on to say that one of the big challenges with multifamily that he found in his career, and he wasn't a multifamily guy but from a theoretical standpoint was the turnover and you're turning 50 to 60% of your tenant base every 12 to 18 months. In mobile home parks, he's like, ‘95% of our residents owner their homes and it costs a lot of money for them to move their homes.’ So typically what happens, Kevin, is if they want to sell that home or they want to go somewhere else move. They don't move their homes. They just put their home up for sale and they move and go buy a home somewhere else. And basically, you never lose that lot rent. That lot rent continues to come in day after day and you don't have that down period like you might have an apartment and you don't have to that make-ready costs like you might have an apartment. So, that was one of the big ones. Another big one that really piqued my interest was the just really the barrier to entry and that there's really no new supply coming in the marketplace. You know, municipalities don't like our asset class. It's got a bad stigma attached to it. And so, no new parks being built and so if you find a good quality park in a great market, you don't have to worry about competition coming down the road. It’s not going to happen. It's just not a chance of it happening. James: It's not like a straightaway somebody can just come and build something in front of you. Kevin: Right. Right. Exactly. So, that was a big one. I liked that and then another big thing that he sold me on was just the management side of things. You know when the residents own their own homes you're not maintaining the roof, you’re not maintaining their plumbing, you're not maintaining their electrical. You’re not maintaining anything whatsoever that happens to their unit. They just like a homeowner, they call that vendor. They call the HVC company. They call the roofer. They call the plumber to fix it. You're not in charge of that. Our only requirement is to maintain the infrastructure. So, the roads, the water and sewer lines leading to the houses and the electrical infrastructure and that's pretty much it. And so I was like, ‘Wow, that's interesting.’ So, like low turnover, fairly lower management responsibility and very rarely is there ever a point in time where you have a down unit or a lot that's not paying you rent. So, the fourth, you asked me for three but the fourth big thing that really sold me on it was He's like Kevin there's a lot of first- and second-generation park owners still out there. Either they built these parks or their father built these parks and now they're aging out. All of these parks were built in the 50s and 60s and 70s and these owners are getting very old. You know, like five years ago the statistics were that 85% of Park owners only owned one Park. And so, to me that means they're a mom and pop, right? They're not a big professional or institutional operator. And so, his point that he made was that these individuals have been working these parks not like you or  I, where we run them like a professional company,  but with their bare hands. They are working these things from day to day. And they're either getting old or their health is becoming an issue. They're getting tired and they're aging out of these things at a very fast rate. And so, there's the opportunity to get in and run it like a professional. You know, get markets up to the market rate in the area and run it more efficiently and do a better job of collections and whatever they might be doing wrong there. So, that was a big thing that piqued my interest as well is working through that ‘mom and pop’ generation and finding opportunities that had a lot of meat left on the bone. Those were the big ones he threw at me and many others as well. But those are some of the big ones that just really sold me. I was like, ‘I’ve got to learn more about this.’ James: Yeah, that's awesome. When I learned about mobile home park, I went for like some three-day class and I really learned it. I love it. I mean, it's a really good asset class and I didn't want to do it because I believe in focus. I mean sometimes as entrepreneurs, we are like, ‘Oh, mobile. Oh, that's so cool. The self-storage let's go do this.’ Kevin: Shiny objects. James: And I realized that to be really good at something you have to have focus. So, that's the one thing I wrote in my book, right? Whenever a passive investor chooses your sponsor make sure that your sponsors focusing maximum to asset class. There are so many details in this asset class but with this market being hard a jack of all trades can’t really make money. Kevin: True. James: Some of their mobile home parks are a bit small, right? I mean, it used to be like 3 million for like a hundred parks or something like that. So, we were like all in doing like large deals and we thought, ‘Okay, we're just going to stick with apartments and stay focus and make sure we get good at it.’ So, that's important, I think. And so, at a very high level can you explain how the cash flow is generated in a mobile home park? Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. It's pretty straightforward. You know, we own the entire community and in a perfect world, this is how we’d like to own the community, where we own zero of the home. So, let's just give an example: we have 149 space mobile home park in Buffalo, New York. In that community, we own zero of the homes that are in there. There are 140 of those lots that are occupied with residents. Who again, they own their roof above their head and they pay us on average $428 a month in lot rent. They also pay their water and sewer; you bill it back for the trash usage. So basically, our job in that community is to maintain the roads and make road improvements as necessary. We cut the common areas of the grass. We trim trees throughout the community. Just making sure that the community or the subdivision is up kept and their responsibility is to pay us for the renting of the lot that they're homes are sitting on. That's it. We make money in that manner. That is the sole source of our revenue. Now I’d say, ‘In a perfect world, we don't own the homes.’ Unfortunate, we're not in a perfect world, James, are we? So, we have our portfolio of approximately two thousand lots that we own and it changes every day. In somewhere between two hundred and fifty and two hundred and seventy of the mobile homes and some parks we own zero homes and in other parks around twenty. It just really depends on how that older owner who we bought it from was operating it. And so, our goal with those homes that we own is to get out of the ownership as fast as possible. And so, what that means to us is that we'll go in and we'll do a very nice builder-grade renovation on them. We’ll sure make everything is operating as it should and make them look good and ultimately try to sell them at a breakeven or we'll even lose money on the homes if we can find a cash buyer, who will come in and purchase. Who we know once they own it outright that they will be a very sticky resident and they'll end up staying there for a very, very long time. And so, our goal is really good to get it back to the lot rental model. Because at that point our management and our maintenance responsibilities are incredibly minimal. James: Yeah, let me try to summarize this for the audience. It’s like a parking lot for a car, right? But it’s Just a car that doesn't have a wheel to move. Kevin: We’re the home parking lot specialists. James: You make a lot of money, right? Because I just own the land, right. The earth is one of the best business on earth. Kevin: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. We are definitely a parking lot.  Except the homes are very expensive to move… I don't want to say that's a great thing about our resident base because that's not the best way to put it. But typically we cater to workforce housing. That's what we have. You know, so good hard-working blue-collar folks. And the average single-wide cost about 5-6000 to move and reset in another the community and a double-wide 10-12,000 and the average folks who live in our communities do the average do not have that type of money lying around to move their home but some of them. And so normally, like I said what happens is that they sell it. Just like you would sell a stick-built home. They put it up for sale and someone else buys it and that person comes in and takes over the lot rent responsibility. So, it's a beautiful thing. James: Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. So, just in terms of the lot itself are there any other issues with the city? Or do you just own the whole lot? Kevin: Issues with the city meaning…? James: So basically, you own the entire park. So, that whole thing is an SL real estate, right. Kevin: That's correct. James: The city doesn't own any of the things inside. Kevin: Sometimes, every park is a little different. We have a few communities where the main road going through it is owned by the town or the city and we own the park. So, they maintain that one road. We have other communities where the water company direct build the water and sewer lines. So, when that park was built the local municipality handled the water and sewer and they literally put the lines and they own them. And we're not responsible for water leaks or anything like that. In most communities, we own the lines but there are some communities that are just anomalies. They are kind of stand alones, where we don't have to maintain them. Every park is different but normally, we own everything. For the most part, we own everything in the park and we have to maintain it. James: So, do you get a lot of depreciation because you just own the land? Compared to like multifamily? Kevin: You do. You do. You know, we did a bunch of cost ex studies last year and we were actually pretty shocked. In fact, Tom Wheelwright from Rich Dad Advisors… I didn't know that he's good friends with the person who does our cost ex studies. He personally reached out to me because he had never looked at a study from a mobile home park before and she shared one of ours with him. And he's like, ‘You got to come to my show. I'm actually baffled at the amount of depreciation that you guys able to gain.’ So, the infrastructure… So, all the improvements in the land. Most of the value of that property because we're not buying the homes. Most of the value is in the improvements of the properties. Because a lot of our property that we're buying it’s not like a path of progress. I mean, the dirt itself isn't worth the money. It's the infrastructure that's there that is really worth the money. And so I don't want to just off the cuff share with you some of the cost ex studies but it's a fifteen-year depreciation schedule.  And I think we've been able to, on a couple of our deals, depreciate it like upwards of 60% of the actual purchase price within the first year. So pretty significant. James: [inaudible34:57] the bonus depreciation. Kevin: With the bonus depreciation. James:  Got it. Got it. So, is it fifteen years or is it similar to like twenty or fifteen? So, mobile home parks[inaudible], okay. That's something that I didn't know. That's very interesting, Okay. That's really good and what about what is the primary value at the mobile home park? Kevin: Yeah, there are a couple big ones. I kind of classify them as like low hanging fruit, middle hanging fruit and then the high hanging fruit. Which is hard to get to. The low hanging fruit for us are simple operational changes. You know, the heavy payroll. We will go in and…  they’ve basically got their family members and their cousins and their brothers on payroll and we'll go in and chop it down to what it really needs to be. That's very low hanging fruit for us. Some other low hanging fruit for us are just your rent increases. There have been many communities that we have purchased that literally have not had a rent increase in fifteen years or twenty years that’s a long, long time. And so that's very low hanging fruit. Medium hanging fruit to us would be controlling the water and water sewer and other utility expenses. So, a lot of these parks when they were built back in, back in the day, water and sewer weren’t expensive utilities. They just weren't. It was included and was factored into the lot rent. You know, the infrastructure was new back then. So, there weren't leaks or wasn't waste or anything like that. Over time the infrastructure gets older and leaks that happen. People tend to abuse water. Water and sewer are expensive in most parts of the country. And that's normally a very large line on the PNL expense statement. And so, we'll go and we'll basically buy individual water sub-meters. They’re pretty advanced meters that are digital and have remote reads. And then we will install them to a lot and will essentially start building the residents back for their own usage. Proportionately speaking we will do the reads each and every month build them back. So, number one: we'll save anywhere from 20% to 40% of usage because people now get responsible very quickly when have to pay for it. And then they'll all those savings basically good to our bottom line. So, it costs us a little bit of money but typically in a normal-sized Park, we will recoup that entire investment of the water meters within like 12-14 months. It's pretty quick. And then the high hanging fruit of the value-add side is infilling of new homes on to vacant lots and so a lot of communities that we own they might have some vacant lots of them. Some more than others. So, I'll give an example: we buy a mobile home parks 100 lots in size. It's got eighty that are occupied with trailers that are paying. The other twenty they were fully developed when the park was built. They've got infrastructure there. However, they do not have a mobile home sitting on them. We've got dealers license in every state that we own a park in and so we can buy wholesale from the retailers and the manufacturers. And we’ll go buy brand new home inventory and we'll bring it in and will basically create a retail program and find buyers for those homes to infill those lots. So, we'll buy the homes. We’ll bring them in. So, I say that's high hanging fruit because it's very capital intensive. It costs money to purchase a home and that money is tied up until you sell that home. So, there are different programs out there that help you to facilitate that but it's still very capital intensive. And there are a lot of logistics involved with moving homes in and setting them up and things like that. So, those are the big ones of how we add value to communities. James: Got it. Got it and I believe the mobile home park homeowners compared to multifamily which are renters, right? So, it’s a completely different mindset when it comes to pride of ownership. Kevin: That's it. That's it. That's why we try to convert them to a homeowner as fast as possible. I mean, you still have your homeowners who you have to kind of kick in the butt every once in a while, to keep your house in order, to keep the yard in order. We’re pretty strict with our screening processes and for the most part, the homeowners within our communities have pride of ownership and take care of their units quite well. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So, let's go back to the property management side of it. Because I remember when I was listening to your podcast about five years ago, you were always saying or the apartment guys had it easy. Because they have their own property management. They are more professional. Finally, after five years you are going to be moving your property management company under yourself.  You going to self-manage, right?   James: Yeah. So, you guys do have it easy. All you have to do is pay it and just hand it off. Buy it and... Yeah, joking. I know there's more to it than that. So, up until a little over a year ago, we managed all our own assets in house. And unfortunately, the property management side of any business there's a certain size to where you can actually break even and we were nowhere near that size. And so, it was a losing endeavor for us. And so, sometime in the middle of last year we were introduced to a property management firm…. we’d never considered property management in the mobile home park space. Only because we were always told that the options of the companies that were out there were poor, very poor. And I was told so by many different people, many different veterans of the industry and so we never really explored it. And so, we always manage it ourselves but last year we were in contract to buy a property up in Michigan. It was in receivership and the bank had engaged this management company, a national management company, a property management company that were mobile home park experts in the business forty years. They were engaged to actually manage the day to day of this thing while it was in receivership. We were buying a note on this thing and we got introduced to this property management company. We got to see them in the real world. James: [barking] My dog has been like a... Alright, Kevin. So, one thing that I got to know since a long time ago is apartments have an easy way of getting into third party property management and buying it and giving it to third party property management. More recently, you have been trying to get your own property management company or maybe you already done it. So, can you explain why that is? Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. So, in our space it is not the norm to hand off to a third-party management company. I think we're like the redheaded stepchild or the anomaly of the real estate industry. Because pretty much every other asset class multifamily, office, retail, all of them have multinational property management companies and lots to choose from, right. They can choose from many different people in the space, best in class things of that nature. I had always been told in the mobile home park space by many industry veterans that it just doesn't exist here that there are only a handful of property management companies and most of them aren't very good. So basically, in the initial years of us owning parks, we managed it ourselves. However, in order to build an appropriate property management company that's profitable, you have to have a certain scale and we were never there two years ago. We just weren't large enough. And so, it was kind of a losing endeavour for us. We're okay with it. But it was prohibiting our ability to grow at the scale that we wanted to. We were good at finding great opportunities and we were good at raising capital. The roadblock was actually the operations of all these different parks were buying.   And so just by happenstance, we were buying a note on a distressed property up in Michigan and it was in receivership. And during that transaction, we got introduced to the management company that was running the show and it was this large group. They've been in this space for 40 years. They are the largest fee manager in our business and they've had a footprint nationwide. And I saw them first-hand and it seemed like they were doing a great job within the first couple of months of us being introduced to them and of them managing this asset that was not yet ours. And so, I flew up and met their team and flew my team up to meet their team. I got to see their operations. I got to learn about them and everything seemed great. I mean, I was impressed. Again, they had a lot of experience… way more experienced than us in this business. They knew everyone in the industry. They knew all the intricacies of the business. They had different departments to manage those things whereas we were basically were trying to wear a million different hats. And it seemed like a perfect match made in heaven. And so, after another month or two of kind of testing them out on this asset. We were buying this and we said ‘You know, let's hand them the majority of our properties and let's see how they do.’ And we kind of did it like two different chunks. And long story short, they're great guys. However, no one's going to ever manage your property like you would. No one's ever going to care as much as you do. And so within four or five months, we started seeing some pretty readily available signs that things were not going as planned. The promises weren't coming true. You know, decisions that should have taken three minutes to make were taking three months to make. Everything was moving like a snail's pace and nothing was getting done and we were actually regressing and it was frustrating. However, what happened during these first six months of us being with them is that we literally acquired like another nine properties. So, we doubled in size. So, unfortunately, it wasn't as easy as us making a decision saying, ‘Hey, we're going to give you our thirty-day notice and we're going to take it back in house.’ Because we surely did not have the infrastructure now to actually manage our assets because we literally doubled in size in a short period of time. And so over the last six months, we've been kind of behind the scenes building out a legitimate property management company with systems and processes and in hiring new team members. We didn't want to bring it back in and fumble. We want to make sure that we brought it back in, we basically built our own best in class operation that we could do it better than anyone else. Whether it be for ourselves or current assets or new assets that we were buying. If we woke up one day and we ended up going crazy. We thought that we wanted to do a third-party management for other people that we would be best in class. I don't think that's going to happen. But that's what we've done over the last five or six months and that's actually side-tracked some of our acquisitions we've only bought two properties this year. We probably could have bought a lot more but anyway I guess long story short, James, is I'm somewhat envious of you guys in the multifamily space. Because there's a bar that set with property management companies and if one company is doing poorly you’ve got other options to go to and typically they kind of keep each other in line a lot of times. And I know that they’re still never going to treat your property like you would yourself personally. However, You've got options and things that might not be working with one company you know that you could probably actually go and get served correctly at another company. We just didn't have that option. We just didn’t have that option. This was the once and done. There were other companies out there but these are the best in class and I'm like, ‘If these are the best in class, we got to build our own. Because there are other options for us.’ That's what we did. We brought it back and so that just happened on November 1st. That’s when we actually truly brought everything that had migrated back in was November 1st. So as of the time of this recording, it was like six weeks ago. James:  Got it. Got it. So yeah, it's a different ballgame, right?  of course, it's going to slow down in terms of acquisitions because now you're also managing the property management. But I think overall, in the long run, it’s much better for you. Right? Kevin: Absolutely, at the end of the day the amazing strides that we've made just in the construction side of our business and the marketing side of our business as far as like sales are concerned…like we've done more in the past two months then was completed in the past year. I'm not even joking. It's been absolutely amazing. So, I'm excited. I’m like, ‘Hey if I'm going to screw up, I want it to be my fault. I don't want it to be someone else's fault that our properties aren't performing.’ I'm okay taking accountability if they're not performing if it's me that's running the ship or driving the ship, right? But if it's another company and they're doing a poor job and we can't control it. I've got issues with that. So, that's kind of where we're at. James:  And I also think that when the market turns people with their own vertical integration will have a lot more leverage in terms of control, right? I mean a lot of property management companies are doing a mediocre job right now but they escape because the markets are super strong right now. Kevin: That's right. The market props everything up. James:  When the market turns then we will know how good they are. Because now we have to be answerable to our investors and we have to go to third party. So, one other thing that I want to touch on about the way you do business a lot of times you raise money and not deal by deal but you use fund model. Can you explain what's a ‘fund model’? And why is that beneficial? Kevin: Yeah, to keep it somewhat simple… I mean, it's really not much different than your deal-specific syndications other than the fact that we've got multiple properties that we're putting underneath that fund umbrella versus just one individual property. So, an investor is going to get their investment diversified amongst multiple properties and possibly multiple different markets rather than just one. So, simply put that really is the only true difference between probably how our business operates and how your business operates. The reason that we decided to go that route happened about three years ago…We were going into the end of the year and we had just founded Sunrise Capital Investors. As like a formal company, rather than just me and buying parks on my own. And we had a pretty stout pipeline and a lot of deals kind of fell apart. And we were like, ‘Oh, we only have two deals now. They're going to either going to close January or February next year. This is due to individual deal-specific raises.’ That's fine. And then all sudden like within like two weeks somehow all these other deals came back to life and we all of a sudden had five deals that absolutely looked like they're going to close. We had like four to five money that went hard and anyway we're like, ‘Okay, well now we have five and they're all going to end up dropping like in the same like week or two. Logistically speaking, it'd be an absolute nightmare to try to do five deals specific syndications. Because of the paperwork and logistics behind it and then the legal costs associated with it and that just didn’t make any sense.’ They're going to close right at the same time.  I think there's more of a benefit for our investors to give them diversification amongst all five of these versus just one. You know, one individually. And so we didn't know what the feedback was going to be and we put it out there and it was well-received. So, it was great for us. It gave us a little bit more flexibility on the buying side. Gave them risk diversification amongst multiple different assets and markets and so it's been a win. So, we did really well with that. That was kind of our test fund and you're last, actually about eighteen months ago, we launched our second Fund. Which is a little bit larger fund twenty-million-dollar fund and it did the same thing. So you know, we're a little different, though.  A lot of funds… a lot of institutional funds will go out and they'll get really aggressive. They'll raise all the money. Let's say it's 100-million-dollar fund to go out and raise I'll spend all their time and energy raising 100 million dollars. And once they've got the commitments for, let's say, maybe 75% or maybe more than that. Then they'll actually start going to buy it. You know, once that money's there and the costs of capital is very high. We didn't want the money sitting around idle. And so, we just continued our building our pipeline and we would only bring money in tranches. So, we'd only bring enough in during that fundraising that we actually knew we're going to need or the next like two months to close deals. So, although it was an eighteen-month buying period over the last fund, we would raise it in tranches. Which meant our investor capitalism is sitting around idle, not collecting a return. We weren't occurring pref on money on millions of dollars that were sitting being around idle. And it just held us accountable and it held everyone accountable which I like. Our interests were very much aligned with one another. James:  So, you basically do capital calls whenever you need the money.  Kevin: That’s it. That's it. James:  These are good capital calls, not the other bad capital calls.  Kevin: Right. Exactly. Like the verbal soft commitments are there. And some of them might not come through but the majority of them do.  You know, I think about 5% drop out of folks. James:  So, you basically make a verbal commitment. And when you have a deal, you say now let's make it hard. Kevin: Yeah, absolutely and each one of these two funds that we started, we actually already had deals and contract going into them. So, it wasn't like we were raising a blind pool like, ‘Oh, here's what we're going to do. We're going to raise this much money, and then we're going to buy.’ It's like we got X amount of properties in contract right now. So, while there might be more properties in this fund, you can physically see and see the performers in each one of these. These are going to be properties that are in this fund. So, there's something tangible there. That's another thing so different about us and how we do these funds. We don't go into it blind. Where we're just raising money and then we're going to go do what we say we're going to do. We're actually doing it simultaneously but we've got deals coming in. We've got deals in contract money hard--- James: ‘Semi blind’ I would call it. Kevin: Call it ‘semi-blind.’ That's a perfect way to put it. It sounds like a rock band. James:  Right, right. Right. Alright, Kevin, can you give some advice to people who are trying to start up in this business in real estate or even in mobile home park? Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Trying to get started up I'd say go try to mute a little bit of social media because everyone's on social media now, but I’d try to mute a little bit of that and go find the one individual girl or gal who is actually doing what you want to do. They can prove to you that they're doing what you want to do.  They're an actual GP. They're not they don't have five thousand units of very minimal shares as an LP and they're touting that. I know that's happening a lot out there. So, you know try to mute all that crap because I know it gives people anxiety. You know, like social media gives people anxiety because they see how everyone else is doing deals and ‘I’m like stuck here I can't get going.’ Just try to mute it out. Silence it and go find the James. Find guys like me.  We're very good with our time. We’re not going to just give everything away for free per se. We only have like so much time today but like find an authentic individual like us,  I don’t want to tout ourselves here, who will actually like give you some real advice that can give you some proper guidance or at least give you some nuggets get on your way and let all that other noise go. Because I think that that that that bottlenecks people a lot. That fear of missing out man. That anxiety creates just this internal turmoil of like, ‘I'm missing out’ and then like you get nothing done right. You’re like, ‘I'm going all these conferences and I'm reading all these books. I'm doing all these things.’ And you feel like a… James:  And you pay big money to some gurus out there. Kevin: Yeah and I think that a lot of folks’ mistake that with like productivity of …attending things like that. It's great. I do it all the time. You do it obviously. We're part of a mastermind together. But like you've actually got to like at some point get granular and you actually have to take some risk and take that leap. It's easier to do when you know someone like you or someone like me or there are other people like us. That one person who you can just kind of lean on and get some general advice from and get the real picture from as well. You know, what's real and what's not.  James:  Absolutely, absolutely. Kevin, why do you do what you do? Kevin: Why I do what I do? I really enjoy it as far as investing in real estate, I really enjoy it. I mean, I love the people I work with. I love our team here. I really enjoy being active and so everyone likes different parts of the deal like as far as what I do I'm not an Excel junkie. Not like my other partner he'll sit in from an Excel platform and run the model many different ways over like five hours. I want to shoot myself when I think of that. I'd rather be out in the field, I like executing on the plan. I like taking something from what it is today and actually seeing the end result of our hard work and effort over a period of six to twelve to eighteen, twenty-four months. And I also like seeing the smiles on the faces of residents. When we take something that's been blighted and actually make improvements to it. Especially folks who have lived there for many years. That's pretty rewarding to be seeing that kind of stuff. Especially, you get the one residence like, ‘God, I’ve been in for twenty years and this place over the last ten years was just scary and I didn't want my family to come over. Now, I have dreamt of the day that it will be the back to its former glory.’ And I like that kind of stuff. So, I like the lifestyle that that real estate provides, right? I get to spend a lot of time with my wife and my kids and friends and family and things like that. James:  Absolutely and was there any proud moment towards your real estate career that you can never forget? That will stay with you.  Is there one proud moment that you were like I’m so proud of myself. Kevin: Yeah, actually there is one. It was the very first mobile home park that we bought. If you got time, I'll tell the story. It's probably two- or three-minutes story but anyway, I'll try to keep it short. We were buying a very, very distressed park in Atlanta, Georgia. It was in a good little town but it was in the southern part of Atlanta. Which was got hit really hard with the recession and was slower to recover because there were a lot of the new developments that were out that way.  Anyway, we're buying this park that had been receivership for two years. It was fairly poor condition. Lots of squatters, all kinds of bad stuff happening there. The chief of police and the mayor's office were right across the street like a catty-corner. They had to drive past this place every day and we got it tied up and it was a small enough town and corporate town that we actually got a meeting with the mayor and this entire city council including the chief and everyone. And we went in there with his grand plan of how we're going to literally spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to clean this place up and to improve it and make it a proud part of their community.  And we gave this big sales pitch to the mayor's like this really tall guy with a bald head and the handlebar mustache. He is a really mean looking guy and this was in Georgia. He had like a rifle on the wall and a fox. He was a  very intimidating guy but he let us talk. Everyone's kind of looking like shaking their heads. I thought we were like getting their acceptance and he let us talk for fifteen minutes and then he looked at us and he said, ‘If you guys buy that park, you're wasting your money.  Get out of my town. I've been trying to shut that thing down for years now and I'm not going to stop until it's completely closed down. So get the hell out of here. Take your money somewhere else.’ So, we walked out of that room and we and I looked at my partner I said, ‘What do you think we should do?’ Because we weren't getting financing, we were paying all cash for this thing, too. Because it wasn't financialable. So, it was like basically all the money we had at that point. We bought it anyway. ‘So, let's buy it. I mean what are they going to do? Listen, let's just show them what we're going to do. I mean, how are they going to truly stop us, right? Let's do what We're going to do. We know we're going to clean the place up. He doesn't believe us but let's prove them wrong.’ We did that cleaned it up. We became really good friends with code enforcement officer that's kind of that was our like our foot in. We got her gift cards and made her like us and it was a very very open with our communication to her. So, if there was ever an issue, we addressed it right away.  Anyway, twelve months later I got a call from Mayor Bobby Carter's that his name and we got a call from him and I answered I didn’t know it him and he said, ‘This is a Mr. Bobby Carter.’ He has a southern accent. He said, ‘I just want to take a moment to apologize. I want to apologize for the way I treated you guys. I want to apologize for thinking that you wouldn't be able to execute on the beautiful plan that you have done over here.’ It was a long apology and he's like, ‘I just want to take a moment today. I've been meaning to call you over the last six months as I've seen progress being made but it's a year later and this place is great and actually, one of my staff members lives there.’ James:  He was holding it off until he had to tell you. Kevin: That was pretty cool. He literally wrote me a letter then he wrote a letter of recommendation to another Mayor who we were having an issue within another state in another town. Basically, saying like, ‘I thought mobile home parks were the problem. I thought this and the other and that's not the case. And these guys proved me wrong.’ And that's pretty cool. I'm pretty proud of that one. James:  Yeah. It's a big change especially with one of your first ones.  Kevin: He was the very first one. James:  You must have been really scared. I like how come the is not behind your back. Kevin: Well, we could lose that money either. I didn't have much at that point. In 2012, I was pretty broke back then. So, I had to make the money work. James:  That must be the fuel that launched your rocket and your motivation I guess. Kevin: Yeah, that's it. James:   So, why don't you tell our audience how to get a hold of you and your company? Kevin: Yeah, the best place to reach me personally is my website, Kevin Bob. You can find me on LinkedIn and Facebook as well. As far as our company if you want to learn what we're doing in the mobile home park space, you go to sunrisecapitalinvestors.com and get signed up there as well. We don't have an offering open today but get signed up. We have a secure portal and get updates from us when you know we have deals coming about and things of that nature. But other than I'm not too hard to track down. So, it’s pretty easy to find me on iTunes. I've got a couple of podcasts as we've mentioned earlier. You can find me in many different places. And now you can also find me on Jame’s show. James:  Yeah. So, thanks for coming. It was an awesome podcast. It was a lot of value that you gave us and I'm happy to have you on my show. Kevin: Thank you. Thanks for having me, James. And it's been a pleasure knowing you. I appreciate all you do with the podcast. I know how much work it is to put these things out. So, thank you for taking the time to get back to everyone. So much appreciated.  

Most kids who grew up spending too much time at the video arcade wound up with fewer quarters and a few earfuls from their parents. That's not the case for Kevin Williams, who turned his arcade addiction into a career as an out-of-home entertainment guru. He drops in to talk about how XR is taking old ideas and breathing new life into them. Alan: Hey, you’re listening to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. In this episode coming up is Kevin Williams. He is the out-of-home location-based entertainment expert, and he’s what’s coming up next. We’re going to talk about Disney vision, the 90s, immersive entertainment, dream craft, driving go-karts in augmented reality, Great Wolf Lodge and magical wands. All that and much more coming up on the XR for Business Podcast. Founder of the DNA conference and publisher of the ever-mindblowing Stinger Report and my guest today, Kevin Williams. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. Kevin: Thank you, Alan, a real pleasure to be here. The check’s in the post. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. You don’t know this, but you’re one of my very first mentors in this entire industry. You were the first person I reached out to and you were so gracious with helping me understand this world of VR and AR before anybody really caught on to this. That was back in 2014, and I’ll never forget it. So thank you for being there for me. Kevin: Oh, thank you for remembering. Our industry only grows by the new people that you can introduce to it. Alan: And with that, I want to make a challenge to everybody in the industry who owns some sort of VR or AR device — and I am included in this. It’s easy for us to not remember the journey and excitement of our first few times of trying these technologies. I implore everybody and make a challenge to everybody that owns a device — or many devices, in our case — in the next seven days, to put it on as many heads as possible; to get those reactions, to re-energize yourself to the fact that wow, this technology is revolutionary, it is mind-blowing. And we have it sitting in our backpacks, sitting on our desks, sitting in our labs. Let’s show everybody. Kevin: Well, that’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about augmented reality and virtual reality being used in out-of-home entertainment. We can get a lot more heads in it, rather than it just sitting on a shelf in the development studio. Alan: I couldn’t agree more. I had the opportunity to meet with Dream Craft Attractions on the weekend, and oh my goodness, they’ve even solved the problem of hygiene! How do you put people in those masks without having to sterilize all of the devices? So they came up with this ingenious plastic helmet. Like, so smart. And then the VR headsets lower down. Kevin: It’s interesting; you talk about how long this industry has been going. I was just having a conversation. You do understand that that two-part liner system is actually based on the original idea that Walt Disney’s Imagineerium had for their Disney-bution system. Alan: “Disney-bution system!” Kevin: So, Disneyvision was the system that was its Epcot in the 90s. That’s where a lot of people first heard about virtual reality in the theme park sector. And because Disney at the time was trying to work out which was the best way to get people into virtual reality — and this technology is clunky, was using CRTs — they came up with a two-part system where there was a liner that you put on first, and then the head-mounted display component clipped into that liner when you go to

Most kids who grew up spending too much time at the video arcade wound up with fewer quarters and a few earfuls from their parents. That’s not the case for Kevin Williams, who turned his arcade addiction into a career as an out-of-home entertainment guru. He drops in to talk about how XR is taking old ideas and breathing new life into them. Alan: Hey, you’re listening to the XR for Business Podcast with your host, Alan Smithson. In this episode coming up is Kevin Williams. He is the out-of-home location-based entertainment expert, and he’s what’s coming up next. We’re going to talk about Disney vision, the 90s, immersive entertainment, dream craft, driving go-karts in augmented reality, Great Wolf Lodge and magical wands. All that and much more coming up on the XR for Business Podcast. Founder of the DNA conference and publisher of the ever-mindblowing Stinger Report and my guest today, Kevin Williams. Thank you so much for joining me on the show. Kevin: Thank you, Alan, a real pleasure to be here. The check’s in the post. Alan: It’s my absolute pleasure. You don’t know this, but you’re one of my very first mentors in this entire industry. You were the first person I reached out to and you were so gracious with helping me understand this world of VR and AR before anybody really caught on to this. That was back in 2014, and I’ll never forget it. So thank you for being there for me. Kevin: Oh, thank you for remembering. Our industry only grows by the new people that you can introduce to it. Alan: And with that, I want to make a challenge to everybody in the industry who owns some sort of VR or AR device — and I am included in this. It’s easy for us to not remember the journey and excitement of our first few times of trying these technologies. I implore everybody and make a challenge to everybody that owns a device — or many devices, in our case — in the next seven days, to put it on as many heads as possible; to get those reactions, to re-energize yourself to the fact that wow, this technology is revolutionary, it is mind-blowing. And we have it sitting in our backpacks, sitting on our desks, sitting in our labs. Let’s show everybody. Kevin: Well, that’s part of the reason why I’m so passionate about augmented reality and virtual reality being used in out-of-home entertainment. We can get a lot more heads in it, rather than it just sitting on a shelf in the development studio. Alan: I couldn’t agree more. I had the opportunity to meet with Dream Craft Attractions on the weekend, and oh my goodness, they’ve even solved the problem of hygiene! How do you put people in those masks without having to sterilize all of the devices? So they came up with this ingenious plastic helmet. Like, so smart. And then the VR headsets lower down. Kevin: It’s interesting; you talk about how long this industry has been going. I was just having a conversation. You do understand that that two-part liner system is actually based on the original idea that Walt Disney’s Imagineerium had for their Disney-bution system. Alan: “Disney-bution system!” Kevin: So, Disneyvision was the system that was its Epcot in the 90s. That’s where a lot of people first heard about virtual reality in the theme park sector. And because Disney at the time was trying to work out which was the best way to get people into virtual reality — and this technology is clunky, was using CRTs — they came up with a two-part system where there was a liner that you put on first, and then the head-mounted display component clipped into that liner when you go to

In today’s episode, we have the pleasure of featuring a well known & respected mobile home park guru, Kevin Bupp. He entered the real estate world at the young age of 19 where he started with single-family residential real estate. As time went on, he learned about commercial real estate and grew his portfolio- right before the crash of 2008. Like everything, you live and learn- and that’s what Kevin did. He did some soul searching and wanted to focus on his hobbies of health and fitness. He took some time off of real estate and built a company around custom cycling clothes and ran a social club 'Running For Brews.’ However, Kevin still had that real estate fire in him and his vision changed after a lunch meeting. Kevin became intrigued in mobile home parks and he owns several of them throughout the US. In today’s episode, he discusses how and why he chose mobile home parks in this second round of his career, the factors of a good deal & how to find them, and the importance of being in a good headspace.  Episode Highlights: How Things Affected His Business In The Early 2000s 2012 Tragedy And Onwards The World of Mobile Home Parks Where To Learn About Investing In Mobile Home Parks   Connect with Kevin Website: Kevinbupp.com Company Website: sunrisecapitalinvestors.com Podcast: Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, today I'm very excited to discuss one of the most intriguing asset classes and one that is known to have caught my attention at least. And of course, I'm talking about mobile home parks. Mobile home parks are one of my primary targets as an investor because I truly believe that to create long term wealth, there is nothing better than buying a piece of land. And if that land also happens to be a cash cow, then I'm all in. I think mobile home parks are just that. So, in today's episode, I'm going to host Kevin Bupp who has a truly remarkable story and is considered a guru when it comes to mobile home parks. So, let's get going. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Alright, hey, Kevin. Welcome to the show. Kevin: Hey, Don, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Don: Of course I was looking forward to it as well because I know you're one of the best mobile home park investors out there. So, I'm very happy to have you on the show because it's not a secret that I'm very interested in mobile home parks. But first, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your career and how you got started so my audience could get to know you a little bit better. Kevin: Sure. Mobile home parks have been our focus for the past seven years. However, it's not really where I got started. Like a lot of folks, I got started in single-family residential real estate. It was introduced to me or I was introduced to it back when I was 19 years old. Ultimately took me about a year and a half to buy my first property and spent the next couple of years following that introduction to residential focusing on building a single-family rental portfolio. And that's the direction of my mentor at that time. That's exactly what his business model was. So, I just followed it to a tee. We would only ever wholesale or flip a home when we needed to build up capital reserves. But the long term intent was to always build a portfolio for long term cash flow. At some point during the first couple of years, I was introduced to the world of commercial real estate more specifically multifamily property and so we started diving into the multifamily space as well. This is back pre-2008. This is back in 2002-2007, leading up to '08. So, we had built quite a large portfolio of single-family properties and instead of acquiring apartment complexes as well, along with other miscellaneous commercial real estate. Don: Sounds risky build up a big portfolio just before 2008. So, did it end well? Kevin: Well, if I had a crystal ball, I surely would have planned slightly differently, right? No, it didn't end well at all. We're down in Southwest Florida pretty much ground zero, one of the ground zeroes for the real estate crash and crisis. It was a very challenging time. The single-family market down here suffered greatly, not just from a value perspective, all of our properties have a lot of equity. We had a very low leverage point we thought was a very conservative leverage point in our single-family properties. But what we found is within a year period of time slightly less, most, if not all of them were upside down in value. Don: It's like the worst nightmare for every investor. What happened to you? You were investing in single families in Florida before 2008. That's the worst-case scenario. Kevin: Yeah, and it wasn't just the values it was a rental, the occupancy got affected, a lot of people are leaving Florida back then there weren't jobs, a lot of the jobs, were heavily relying on real estate, the growth of real estate, you know, building and development practices. So we had to hit to our rental premiums that were charged, and we had to start offering concessions, and your rents don't always continually go up, there are certain points in times where rents can be affected, and you might have a little more of a challenging time occupying your units will take longer than usual, you might have to give some concessions away, couple free months of rent or a discounted rent for the first couple of months. So, we had to do that, we had to do all the above.  It just was very, very hard to maintain the status quo when we had a portfolio that was underwater. In addition to that, it was negative cash flow, and it went from positive to a negative cash flow standpoint, you can't sustain that for very long least we couldn't. I didn't have $20 million sitting in the bank that could just keep feeding this beast and so we hung on for as long as we could. But ultimately, we were forced to essentially give back a lot of our portfolio to the banks. At that point, the banks didn't have the loss mitigation departments. This was very fresh. Most banks were forced to create those departments within their company to do workouts and loan modifications. However, that did not exist. The first year when things started going completely haywire, and so none of the banks were willing to work with us whatsoever. That's the last thing they wanted to discuss was that loan workout. We really did what we had to do and we tried to hold on as long as we could and ultimately had to get back a lot of what we had built over the years. Don: Okay, so when you say give back, I assume it was a deed in lieu? Foreclosure, right? Kevin: We had hundreds of properties. So, deed in lieu, some of the banks were so in disorganization at that point that they just didn't, there was a way we could speak with just ultimately went through the judicial process and went through foreclosure. We would short sell whatever we could just that we tried to work with the banks as much as possible. We were here, we were open, we're open-minded and willing to work with them. And so, some of the banks worked with us through short sales, we did that.  Others again, there was no communication, there was no dialogue and so, those ultimately went through the judicial foreclosure process somewhere deed in lieu or willing to do whatever we could to ease the process on both sides. But again, there wasn't much organization with a lot of banks in the first couple of years of the crash. Now every bank has a loss mitigation department. There are people, there's a dedicated department to deal with loan modifications and doing reworks with borrowers. That didn't exist. It just didn't exist back then. Don: Of course. Going a little bit forward, then it's 2012. I know you made your first mobile home park deal, right? Kevin: That's correct. Yeah, took a couple of years off a real estate. Well, I shouldn't have I kind of kicked myself in the butt now. But it was damage control for a number of years. It was very hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not a sob story. I've learned a lot from it. I lost my personal residence and got bank accounts got garnished. It was a very ugly personal time for me. I'm still young at heart today but I mean, I was in my 20s. And I'd never gone through something like this before. I've only ever experienced the positives of real estate. It was a lot to consume and to digest. I knew that I needed to focus on my health and fitness. And so, I started a few other businesses that were directly related to the health and fitness industry and that allowed me to number one, create some revenue and income for myself because I was broke. I mean, I'd have anything and my bank account got garnished.  Don: What kind of business? Kevin: I started two different companies. One was a custom clothing company. I was a big runner, and I'm a cyclist, triathlete. And so, I was already ingrained in that community. And there was a huge need for custom cycling clothes and also running clothes for big events that we got into the sublimation business. I knew nothing about it before just watch some YouTube videos and did a bunch of my research and ultimately built a printing company. In addition to that, I love craft beer, and I love running as well. I thought there might be a great marriage. This is back again in like 2009 craft beer was kicking off. It wasn't as big as what it is today, but it was on a roll.  So, I started a social running club that was called 'Running For Brews', and once a week and a set location, we meet for a social run. And afterward we have been at a local brewery and we ultimately ended up opening up 45 locations throughout the country. The bars we charge them for basically bringing people every week to the bar so we get paid based on the amount of attendance we had. It was a fun business. It was one allowed me to be in direct alignment with my interest and also stay healthy and fit as well. Because again, every week we were meeting and going for social runs, 5K's, 10 K's, what have you. And so, it didn't kill the world. We weren't making millions of dollars with it but it was a fun revenue-generating business for us. And then the printing company as well. So those two things allowed me to really tie together my hobbies, health, and fitness and also generate income while I was trying to work through the mess that I had been experiencing with the real estate downturn. Don: Nice. Yeah, I think it's very important to do things you love. I've had some rough times as well. And then I found out that my hobbies are the ones that really saved me and got me back to become a lucid person again. I like to skate, you would never know if you see me dressed up work, you'd never know. But if I need to clear my mind, I just go out and skate and do something. I'm sure you've done that and that helped you a lot with mood and willpower, right? Kevin: That's the one thing that I realized is that everything else was out of my control. My credit was shot, I was getting calls every day from creditors. There were a lot of things that were outside of my control. The one thing I could control was how I felt and how I dealt with these challenging times these days and months that were lying ahead. Being in peak shape, both mentally and physically surely helped me get through those times. I mean, if I had just sat around and ate a bunch of cupcakes and drank a bunch of beer and got overweight and lazy, I'm sure my mental fitness surely would not be in tip-top shape. Don: Let's talk about 2012, where you got back to real estate after the trauma that you've been through with establishing a very serious portfolio and then losing most of it in the crisis. Then you got back to real estate, which is I believe, you know, once you do real estate and you're successful, it doesn't matter what happened, you going to get back to it, right? Kevin: Yeah, that fire was inside me. I tried to pull out or once in a while during those tough years, and I wish I would have looked at it differently. I think if it ever happened again, I would have a different perspective. And everyone knows the old saying of ‘buy when there's blood in the street’, it's just really hard to put that theory to work when its blood that's out in the street, right? It's really hard to think about it when you're inside that bubble. But I think looking back I did the best I could. And I had that fire burning, things were looking better. I was in a better situation all around. I've gotten married to the love of my life, still married to her today, she dealt with me through those downtimes. We got married in 2010. So, she was with me during some really hard times. Life was looking great, didn't have good credit yet. Still, we're working through some financial challenges, everything else was just lining up perfectly.  I knew I would get back into real estate, I knew I wanted to get that fire just glowing again. I look back and reflect on what I would have done differently or what mistakes I might have made back during my earlier years prior to the crash. What would the second round look like? Was it going to look the same or am I going to change my business model a little bit? What I realized is that I put a lot of time and energy into buying 120 plus single-family properties for the rental portfolio. I wasn't married, enjoyed what I did, but I put a lot of long hours and which is fine. I mean, you got to work your butt off.  However, I knew there was a more efficient way kind of reflected back and I compared to my apartment complexes that we owned to the single-family properties and realize that we didn't put nearly as much effort into acquiring 500 doors, apartment doors as we did acquiring 120 single-family rentals and those apartments to seem to kind of chug along, whereas the rentals were scattered amongst three different counties. They were inefficient to operate. I just knew that moving forward, I didn't want to have to rebuild a single-family home portfolio. It wasn't a good fit. It wouldn't allow me to scale fast. I wanted to regrow things or rebuild things much faster than I had done it before. I knew that multifamily is a way to do that. I understood residential real estate.  I knew that apartments were going to be a good fit for me and during that kind of journey of learning how the landscape has changed even the apartment space, I got introduced to a guy by the name of Randy. Randy owns mobile home parks here in Florida. He owned three of them had been a banker for his entire life, did a lot of lending on mobile home parks here in Florida and ultimately retired from the bank and went out and bought three fairly large mobile home communities and had lunch with Randy were introduced by a mutual friend. I had lunch with Randy one day just not interested in mobile home parks, but just really to meet someone new and I left that two-hour lunch meeting with Randy with a newfound interest in the mobile home park.  He piqued my interest in many different ways that I had never even thought about as it relates to investing in parks and I left that meeting confirming that I was going to give the next 12 months of my life to learning everything I could about mobile home parks, not just learning it, but going on actually putting the use of buying a park. So, I was going to buy a park and either prove or disprove all the great things that Randy had said about the niche. So that's what I did. I went out and did that. So, this was like 2011 when I met Randy, and so in late 2012, bought our first Park up in Atlanta, Georgia still owns it today.  The smaller community, it's the smallest thing that we own. However, we bought it at the right price, it's a great location. And the thing kicks out money every month without fail, bought that one, really enjoyed how it went. Bought the second one, which up in North Carolina bought a third one bought the fourth one and the story evolves forward seven years later, got communities and 11 different states right now and this has been our core business for the last seven years. So really, it has been very lucrative for us, it has been a lot of fun. It's a phenomenal niche. You've come into it, Don. I know you're looking to buy your first park so there's been a lot of things that have piqued your interest in this niche. Same things that probably peaked mine seven years ago. And we just took it and ran with it. So that's where we're at today. Don: I could tell you what I'm thinking about mobile home parks and where I'm coming from, I'm coming from owning a single-family portfolio as well. I'm also developing 30 units here in Hollywood, Florida. I'm developing the entire thing from the ground, it's going to be in A-class building, it’s going to be great, close to the beach. So, it's a great area. But somebody had a discussion with me, which also piqued my interest in mobile home parks for a few reasons. I can tell you what I'm thinking, and I want to know what you're thinking about this because I know you're the expert of them. So, here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that there are a few reasons why I'm interested in them. The first one is because they're not zoning for them anymore. So, it's just a fundamental of supply and demand. That's like the most basic thing in the universe. Supply, demand. If you have something that has more demand than supply, then you should try to get that thing for a good deal. So, they don't zone for them because they don't make as well as an income for the cities, as much as the multifamily would as far as property taxes from what I understand, maybe there are other reasons. So that's one reason.  The second reason is that it's just not getting any cheaper and it's not getting any easier to find affordable housing in America. Some so many people have section eight vouchers but can't find homes and the population is growing. So, I don't see any stop to that, I just see how you know, we keep growing as far as that number and the gap between the rich and poor, that's not going anywhere as well. So, when rents are going to get compressed, how compressed are they going to get so that mobile home parks are going to go down in the price? That's the reason. The last reason is that its land. So, it's God's money. When bitcoins replace dollars and when the currency changes in the next 10 years or 20 years, the land is always going to be worth a lot of money. I think buying a mobile home park, close to downtown is a long term investment. It's the best investment you could make, because in cash flows and it's going to appreciate in a tremendous way. If somebody who owns a car dealership is going to want to buy our lot because there is no other land to buy it and they could pay you $15 million in 20 years in today's money. That's what I'm thinking. Am I right? Kevin: I think you hit all relevant points. And it's a great covered land play. We're not a speculative buyer. So, we don't buy our mobile home parks with the intent that there's going to be a higher and better use in 10 or 15, 20 years, we buy it for the income that's being generated as a mobile home community. However, we look at the higher and better use as icing on the cake. If you're within the path of progress or anywhere in its path, even if it takes 15, 20, 30 years to get to you, that land at some point in time should have a higher value than what it does today.  Having a mobile home or mobile homes on that site paying you lot rent. People need a roof over their heads. It's a great way to cover the cost of owning that land and generate some income until that higher and better use comes along. So now, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, it's a parking lot. It's kind of the same idea behind investing a parking lots like you see parking lots is urban core districts, downtown business districts. What a great covered land play. You've got basically a demand for parking, you got a prime piece of real estate at some point in time or another, those surface parking lots are going to have a much higher better using that could be high rise office building apartment complex, what have you, and I feel mobile home parks are very similar nature. Don: Okay, so let's talk about your criteria and your experience. So, what have you learned about investing in mobile home parks? What is it that you're looking for? Like when you see a deal, how do you know it's a good deal? Kevin: A good deal has a different definition for everybody. A lot of it depends on Is it a long term strategy, is it a short term strategy. For us, we like to look at things as though we're going to own them for 7 to 10 years if not longer than that, ideally longer than that, right? We have bought and sold things in the past. However, going into them, we pretty much decided that, that is that type of deal. Like we're going to get in here turn around, and we're not going to keep it for whatever reason that is we're going to look to flip it here in the next year or two. But as far as long term strategy, we know number one, speaking about the demographics, we want to be an area that is economically sound, that doesn't have a diminishing population to it, we want to be an area that has a strong median home price, strong median rental price as well, so that we know there's a demand for affordable housing.  You know, we wouldn't have been an area that's got a diverse employment base as well. We want to know there are jobs available for our workers. Generally speaking, that's the demographics that we're seeking. As far as the deal itself, there are certain targets we have investors that we have to meet the demands of and so for us, we look at what kind of cash on cash return in this park generate, not just from day one, but look at year one, year three, year five, you know, what does the long term projection look like in this community? Where can we get it to go, where's the value add components and what's realistic of what we truly achieve in that given time, and our target then between year one and year two, is to be somewhere in the 12% to 13% cash on cash range, so that number is kind of changed over time.  I could tell you that things have gotten a lot tighter, cap rates are going to press quite a great deal in our space, and the types of deals we were buying four years ago, you're not seeing as much of anymore back then we could easily be getting 15%, 16%, 17% cash on cash returns, sometimes upwards of 20% cash on cash returns quite often. It's getting a lot tighter lot harder to find those types of opportunities today, however, we still like to hit those lower double-digit cash on cash returns between year one and year two, and sometimes sooner, sometimes it might take a little longer. But that's really what the target is that we're reaching for. And that's a leveraged return, that's assuming that we're going to put some type of debt in place. The normal debt that we underwrite with is 70% loan to value 20-year amortization. Unless we know that it absolutely from day one will go either with CMBS or a Fannie or Freddie loan. In that case, typically, it's going to be in the 75% loan to value range in a 30-year amortization. Right now the rates are somewhere in the low foursome are actually below four, depending on what rate of an asset it is. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, Don, but what we're kind of looking for it doesn't mean that folks are out there hunting if it doesn't meet the criteria I just gave you, it's not a good deal because that just means it's a good deal for us and that actually fits our buying criteria.  As far as like quality of assets, I say the one big thing that's changed for us over the last couple of years, not that we would ever buy low-quality assets, however, we're much more picky with the great asset that will buy today than what it might have been maybe five years ago. It's one of those things from a bandwidth perspective, you're always you're buying or dogs wanting to start parks. it's manageable when you're small when you've got a few communities, but just know that those dogs, if they're in a primary that might be different because you can always change the tenant base if you've got just a phenomenal location area. But if you're an okay area, but you got a low demographic that you're serving in your park, it might not ever be more than what it is there today, you know, and so you might just have a little bit more of a challenging demographic that you're serving. And it gets to a certain point where that's just not scalable. At least that's what we found when you're putting out a million fires left and right because you got an older park, it's kind of got a rougher tenant base that is just very demanding.  You're always fighting them to get your payments on time. It's got a really old infrastructure that you're always repairing. Your bandwidth gets stretched very thin very quickly if you tried to own 10, 20, 30 of those parks, and so we're very particular nowadays with not just the quality the park itself above the ground, but also below the ground. What does that infrastructure look like, be very particular about what's the useful life that's there is there 10 years left in the water and sewer lines? Are there five years or 20 years? When was the park built? How about the roads themselves? What condition they're in? And how are they going to hold up over time? So we really put a lot emphasis on that, because we want to know that, number one, the tenant base that we're serving isn't going to be overwhelming for us that they're going to be just a good solid tenant base, but also the park itself, the infrastructure that we're not going to get surprised 10 years down the road with some major infrastructure improvements that we hadn't planned for. Lots of parks out there were built 60-70 years ago. Pipes don't last forever, sewer systems don't last forever, wastewater treatment plants don't last forever, and they're incredibly expensive to replace. Anyway, that's just some of the things that we look for out there searching. Don: I want to ask you a few questions about that. Because from the way you say it, it looks like you guys are looking to buy parks that are already established, occupied, are in good shape, but how could you get like that? Kevin: Yeah, give you an example. We got a parking contract right now, this is probably a perfect example for us. There's a park down in Texas, we're not closed yet, we're in contract for some I'm not going to mention the actual city and state or I'm not going to mention the city but it's in Texas. It's 204 lots and total. Still, this is a good example to use. So, this park, it's got 151 mobile home pads and then the remainder is RV pads, which is kind of a hybrid so it's not 100% mobile home. However, the RV-ers are long term. There are some folks that live there for like three, four years, it's very much a permanent type establishment. The mobile home lots of 149 of 151 are occupied and 26 of the RV lots of the 51 are occupied.  From a revenue perspective, the park is fairly stable, the lot rents are at 375 they could easily go to probably 450 so it's got some move to run on the rents already. It's got city water and sewer it's already being built back so there's not a lot of recapture or revenue to be had thereby building back the water and sewer. They do have some recapture issues but not big ones, you know, things that are fairly easy for us to go in and fix probably a couple of water leaks and a few people that aren't paying their bills as they should be. But generally speaking, that upside has been kind of removed as well. However, where the upside in this park lies, is it looks like crap. The infrastructure is good. The water and sewer are good. It was built to the right specs. It's laid out well, however, the family that's owned it for the past 40 plus years, they just haven't enforced any rules at all. These are all 10 own homes.  There are no park own homes here. I'd say maybe only a handful of homes have actual skirting and so the park looks loud. Hell, it looks horrible. The roads aren't in great shape against got good infrastructure there it was planned out well as far as layouts are concerned. All the lots are a big enough size to where they can fit. newer model single-wide some double-wide. It's got paved two car parking in each home. However, there are cars all over the place. It's more of a cosmetic type deal for us to go and improve other than raising the rents themselves. So, our intent with that one we're buying it for $5.65 million. More than likely what the first 12-18 months will look like there is trying to fix the minor water recapture issues that are going on.  There's about $65,000 of water and sewer that's going somewhere and it's not getting recaptured. I don't know if it's a big water leak or what but we're going to fix that. Normally, it's pretty easy to kind of narrow down what the issue is there either if people aren't paying it, or there's a water leak in the water is going into the ground, one of those two things. We're going to do that we're going to go in and skirt every single home. It's going to cost us $150,000 to do it, but it's going to make that park look like a completely different part just by doing that every home will have a new skirting unit the home itself looks kind of like crap. It will look a million times better with skirting around it. We're going to do a massive community cleanup. There's lots of untagged vehicles, lots of crap around the houses, we're probably going to spend upwards of $50,000 just by buying renting 30, 40 yard dumpsters to get in there, get some labor in there to help people clean your mess up that they've created over the past 10, 15, 20 years.  We're going to fix the roads by about $150,000 worth of road repair that is needed in that park and then the RV lots there's 25 that are empty right now all the hookups are there. I did some test ads to see what the demand was for a one-bedroom, one-bath park model home they'll park miles like one of the small little 99 square foot homes. Within 24 hours we had like 55 inquiries on Facebook so there's a great demand for that type of product in that marketplace. So, we're going to go by 26 park model homes and fill in those remainder of RV pads or if any of the other RV lots turn in the meantime we'll bring in a park model home. That way it looks more like a mobile home park then it does a mobile home park with an RV section with like fifth wheels and travel campers and things like that. So, we'll do that over this period of the first 12-18 months. We'll get rents up. I don't know if we're going to push them to $450 relegate but we'll get them over $400.  Now here's the best part about this. It's in the best part of town it's a right down the road from a Country Club. It's right behind. It's probably one of the nice neighborhoods in the area. All the major retailers are within a block away so if you got a good arm you can throw a stone that far. It's very close by so it's in the best part of town however it looks like death. But the revenues coming in such a desirable area and the schools are so good right there that the park is full the vans full however it looks horrible, and so it had been on the market for a while for a much higher price and it just hadn't sold because it looks scares people away. However, I can see the underlying beauty because I know that the location in the market changes everything. I can easily take what's there now because I know there's enough people that are banging at the door to get in saying, ''Hey, I would love to live here and raise my family here because it's such a great part of town and great schools," that if I lose some of the bad people that are there, I know I'll fill those places right back in with good people.  However, this park was in like the other side of town, it wouldn't be a good deal to me at all, I would never be able to make it look better than what it does today. Even if I put money into it, it would revert to its old self very quickly, and it would never be a strong operator. Collections are phenomenal revenues high, we can get the rents to $450 within the first two years will bail turn around and sell this market we choose to pry for slightly over $10 million is what the evaluation will come in at. If we fill in the park models, get the lot rents up to $450, fix the water recapture problem and aesthetically improve the park which will help drive down that cap rate on the sales side that it becomes all day every day at $10 million parks. Don: So okay, so let's talk about the numbers. So right now you're buying it based on the income I assume, right? Kevin: Yeah, it's about a seven cap. Now we're buying it out. Don: It's a seven cap. What would you say right now is the renovations that it requires as far as the dollar amount. Kevin: About a half-million dollars. Don: Half a million. So, you're buying it for 5.56? Right? Kevin: We're buying a 5.65. And then we got about a half million. Yeah. Don: Okay. You got to be a little bit over 6 million, right? Kevin: Correct. Don: Okay, so how are you going to bring the park into a valuation of 10 million? Is that because you're going to sell it on a lower cap rate? It's almost an institutional park. Right. The buyer for that is institutional. Kevin: So, it would it will be when we're done with it. Yeah, right now, not even close. But it will be when we're done with it. We evaluated a six and a half cap was where we ran it at. Don: That's your exit point? Kevin: Yeah, that'd be the exit point. Things in Texas right now in this market are trading for like five and a half cap. So, but we were low conservative with the exit there in case it fluctuates. Six and a half cap is what we used. Don: What's the NOI of the park if I may ask you right now. Kevin: Yeah, I don't know. Don, I couldn't do that. I'd be lying if I gave you a number right now. Don: But you're saying you could increase the NOI by roughly 35%? Kevin: That's correct. From a rent increase from a, there's like $120,000 worth of payroll in this park. So, there are lots of family members working there, there's a lot of expense line items that can be shaved down as well. Payroll being one big one. As I said, there's about a $65,000 water recapture issue that's happening. I'm not sure where it's going. It's either people aren't being charged, or there's a pretty massive leak.  Just between that and payroll alone, there's $100,000 of additional revenue to be had. Filling in the remainder of the RV lots that are there with park model homes is a major boom, thinking assuming that you're in the 450 range as far as lot rents are concerned. Adding those 26 homes there is a major boom for that park as far as revenue and then if you raise the rents on the remainder of the park, and you get to that $450 mark, which is $75 above where it's at today. Let's just say that on all 200 lots in that park that we were able to achieve another $75 of revenue so that's another $180,000 a year of annual income that doesn't have any costs associated with it other than a rent letter increase going out. There are no additional costs associated with achieving that additional revenue. So just between that and shaving off some of the lifetime expenses, there's $280,000 of additional revenue there to be had. Don: Okay, so I want to ask you a question regarding buying a park that is currently in such a bad situation and condition that it doesn't cash flow, or it does, but not enough. So, it could be, you know, sometimes don't have negative cash flow. So, is that something that you recommend if there's a solid value on them, or that's something you would never do? You always want to buy something that cash flows right now. And so, when you buy it from day one, you already make money? Kevin: This one will cash flow. So, this one will support itself. We're not going to pay for all these improvements out of the cash flow. That's just a bad plan altogether. So, we're going to put up all this capX money as of right from the get-go. This is going to be funded right in the beginning. So, this one, not that situation. This one supports itself. Would we get into it if it didn't support itself? Probably not. It's just there's a lot of risks there on that size of a deal. If it truly is a negative cash flow. I feel very confident about it, but the timing gets Off relatively quickly, when you have such a major renovation project, just lining up crews and contractors. Missing a year off deadline on a big project like this is not unheard of, it could be very commonplace.  So, it gets very expensive if you're truly losing money on a monthly basis, and you missed the target by a year of when these parks ready. So, if we're off by six months or a year, the park still makes money and still makes sense. It's still generating good levered cash on cash return while we're making these improvements. Now, there's a park we got in Georgia. Going into it, we knew number one, we didn't want to be in that marketplace. I didn't like the market all that well. However, what we're buying the park for, it was kind of like, there's no way we can lose here, especially based on the time that we can get the timing right of getting this place cleaned up and renovated, some of these homes so that we should be able to get in and get out and should have little to no risk associated with it. That's what we did took us about 18 months to get in and clean the place up.  We did it with the intent of not taking any cash flow out the place didn't pay for itself. I guess we probably could have taken some cash flow at some point or we just put it all back in property and got it cleaned up, got it stabilized, and then turned around and sold it to a cash buyer and moved on to the next. So that one, we felt confident we had such a low basis in it. However, it's your first deal, and you gotta make it work, I will probably move away from something like that, man, there's just so many things that can go wrong. And it's like you've got all your life savings sunken into this thing or if you got your money and your investors money, but yet, you've never actually done a deal like that before, and you don't have a plan B, then I think it's incredibly risky. I think there's easier ways to make money than to do that, the model I just shared with you. However, I've got experience doing it, I've done it before and allow the money than deal with my own money in a wouldn't have sunk me if that deal wouldn't have gone as planned. And again, our basis was so low that it would have been very hard for us to lose. Don: I understand. Okay, so let's talk about how you find these deals because I know that's a big deal. That's 200 and some spaces, it's more of the institutional buyers typically the people are going to look for that. So how do you find these deals? Kevin: We got a lot of relationships with brokers, but I will say that the majority of the deals that we own today and that we have in our pipeline are due to our efforts. And that is direct mail, pick up the phone and cold call owners. And we take on the role of a broker. I mean, we identify parks in certain markets that we like, and we try to build a rapport with the owner or someone in the family that has ownership of that property. And this particular deal in Texas I gave you, you say it's an institutional it will be. However, it's not today, no institution, the right mind would touch this thing in the current condition that it's in. However, I know that it will be an institutional play once we're done with it. So that's where we hope to get it but that one was found via cold call, it was listed when we called on it.  However, it was not listed on like loop net or any of the big commercial side that had a local commercial broker that had it marketed. I don't know where the heck he was marketing and Don, I'd never seen it before and normally I see pretty much everything that gets on the market. He had been asking, I think over $8 million for I think eight and a half million or something like that. He's not a mobile home park broker. He didn't understand the business. A lot of development happening right in this immediate area. I think that he's a little off what that lands worth. However, that's how he was marketing and it was like eight and a half million dollars. And we made a number of offers over the last six months and finally really took our offer knew we could execute on it. So that was a cold call.  We get a lot from the cold calls, we get a lot from direct mail. But our goal is to really build relationships with owners, not just send them a piece of mail saying, "Hey, we buy mobile home parks, you'll call us." That doesn't work all that well. You know, our goal with the letter is a very personalized letter. And then we typically follow up with a phone call and just say hi, say hello, go to the relationship. You get to meet these folks at industry events that they're going to be attending. If I'm going to be in the local area, if I'm visiting another property, I get on our spreadsheet, I see who else has a park in that area, how we communicate with them. So, I try to get together coffee, try to grab lunch, what have you. Just build these relationships doing the same things a lot of brokers do, but we do it on our behalf. The goal of doing that is that remove competition because as soon as it gets into a broker's hand, it's their fiduciary responsibility to get the highest dollar amount for it right even if it's a pocket listing, per se. More than likely that pocket listing is going to get handed off to a number of potential buyers. We've never sold a property directly to the owner we've always used the broker. I get their capacity and where they fit in. I just don't like being the guy on the buy-side that has to bid against five other people for the same property. So, we typically go right to the owners. Don: When you get into a mobile home park and you see that it needs a lot of work, what would you say the price per pad? Of course, I know it depends on many factors that condition but what would you say is the dollar amount you have to renovate in case you have to put roads, in case you have to work on electricity and work on the septic tanks? Kevin: I can tell you what we do as far as like setting reserves aside on an annual basis per lot per year, we set aside a certain amount of money for ongoing capital reserve items, right but as far as like day one, what's needed. It's all across the board. This park here in Texas is going to be half a million dollars, we closed on the park just a couple of months ago up in Indiana. Its pristine man. It's so nice. We're kind of joking with where do we spend 10 thousand dollars. There's not much to do at all and all the water and sewers directly built by the city, public utilities built by the city, the roads are the perfect shape, all the structures are in good shape. So, we are not putting hardly any money into and it's not because we don't want to because there's nothing to do to it, there are no improvements that make. Now that was a good deal. It's probably one of the nicest parks we own. It's gorgeous. It's an 85 lot park, 42 the lots are occupied. It's all double wides. Hundred percent double wides. We paid 750 for it. Lot rents are $317 a month in direct build city, water, city sewer. All the 85 lots are developed, all the infrastructure hookups are there for 85 homes.  However, there's only 42 in there. I'm not sure the story behind why it never really truly got off the ground, but it's a very high-end community. In fact, despite one of the nicer neighborhoods in this area to live even nicer than some stick-built homes. Some people just don't know what the heck they're doing. I mean, the guy was nice, the seller. He had known for seven years. There were three vacant double wides and then a fourth vacant double, which is the office. They have a nice office there, which will keep it as an office but it's a big double-wide so that came with the sales probably $50,000 home. And three other vacant double wides had over the last seven years, people had just abandoned. This guy never did anything with them. They have just been sitting there locked up, kind of preserved, you know, they all need some rehab. But we just got done rehabbing the first one couple weeks ago, we sold it for $23,900. Put about $9000 into it, and we got it for free. We're renovating the second one right now or I'll put about 10 or 11 into it and total renovation. And it'll probably sell for $24900. And then the third one about the same price point. So, the guy never does anything. He's double eyes. They just sat there money going down the drain. Yeah, yeah, that was a cold call effort. Don: You're going to fill out all the lots, right? Kevin: We haven't fully decided yet. I don't know what we're trying to wait and see. We bought it with the intent that it made sense even without infilling lots because it's a small town. So, we didn't run the performer based on Hey, we got to fill in X amount of loss per year because I just don't know what the demand. I'm not sure yet as to what that demand looks like and how many homes we could sell a year.  So, what we're trying to use as a determining factor is how fast he's used mobile homes will sell the ones that we acquired through the sale. As we renovate them, if I got people showing up left and right on these next couple of deals with $25,000 cash in hand, they'll tell me that there's at least a market for probably $25,000 to $35,000 homes. However, I'm still not dead set on that there's a market for $60,000 or $70,000 homes. So anyway, the next couple of months will tell us a lot as to what kind of money people have that live there. And then that will help us decide what the next steps are as far as in filling that community. So that's the plan. I just don't know how many homes a year will be that we bring in. Don: I also don't like specifically on mobile home parks talking to brokers. So, I'm also calling and doing cold calls and talking directly with sellers and I have found out that it's probably the best way to do this in this space. I don't know why, I mean in multifamily, it wasn't working quite well for me when I was trying to call the owners directly but in mobile home parks, it does. For some reason, you call people and they're nice. Why do you think that is? Kevin: I don't like being cold-called. I hate being cold-called. However, one of my business partners that I own some of my private portfolio with, he picks up the phone, anyone calls. He also talked about a lot of the owners are still of the older generation, like our parent's generation. They're nicer, they're friendlier. They're used to having conversations in person, not just on a text message. Back in their day, how they communicated, right, they spoke with each other, they had an open line of dialogue. So I think that's why 15 years from now, I think that you might find that a completely different story, as far as mobile home parks are concerned, like who the owners are on the other side and are you able to have good quality conversations with them or is it just going to be in order to take on the other side, and you will never be able to get to the decision-maker. Don: So, what do you think is the best way for somebody who's trying to learn that asset class? What do you think they should do? Is it listening to podcasts and reading books? Where do you think it is the best information? Kevin: Education is the start with everything right? Thank God today we have podcasts. There's so much free information out there. We've got a mobile home park-specific podcasts, we've got 100 plus episodes. Lots of our earlier episodes are very granular. They go into like the operational side, we go into very deep intricacies on the finding the value and underwriting a park. Go listen to, you know, the hundreds of hours where the podcasts that are out there ours and there are other ones as well that are good. There are places like bigger pockets that have a dedicated mobile home park section of their forum. There's another dedicated mobile home park forum out there, you know, so there are lots of places to get free information.  However, at some point in time, it's a matter of actively doing something. And sometimes it doesn't mean by yourself. I've always had partnerships, I enjoy it. I know what my strengths are, I know my weaknesses are. No one's good at everything. So being able to identify someone who's out there already doing it can help fast track your success in the space, find out what their weaknesses are. And maybe that's where your strengths lie, and your team up with something that's already got a little bit of traction, and has already done some deals or they're doing deals currently. You can kind of dive in and help them grow their business. That's a much faster way to do it then going at it all by yourself. However, some people don't want to partner they want to go at themselves, but you gotta take action some point of time. I'm going to buy a deal and everything that you've learned in theory, you know, will come into play. However, you'll learn things that don't pan out exactly how they did theoretically right? You learned by being in the trenches and doing a deal. Don: Of course. So, in case anybody wants to get in touch with you and kind of do something together, what is the best way to connect with you? Kevin: They can find me on my website. It's Kevinbupp.com. I do two weekly podcasts. One's real estate investing for cash flow. It's a commercial real estate investing podcast, you can find that on the kevinbupp.com website, or company website is sunrisecapitalinvestors.com. So if you want to see what we got going on the mobile home park space, that's where you can find that. And then we also have a mobile home park investing podcast. You can find any of our podcasts on iTunes, you just search my name, or search mobile home parks or real estate investing, you'll find it there. I'm not too hard to track down, Don. So, between a couple of those ways, yeah, they can't find me then they're not looking hard enough. Don: Okay. Well, Kevin, I want to thank you for being on the show today. And we appreciate all the insights you gave us. Kevin: Yeah. Thanks, Don. Thanks for having it's been a lot of fun. Don: All right. Thank you. Have a great day. Lady: Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time.  

Engineering Influence welcomes Kevin Flaker, Becca Schmidt, & Ryan Karlin, the hosts of the “Close of Business” podcast. Kevin, Becca and Ryan are all young professional engineers at Black & Veatch who started the podcast as a place for young professionals in STEM to discuss all issues related to tech, innovation, work/life balance and any and all issues related to the science and engineering industries.  Subscribe to their podcast on Spotify, the Apple podcast here and wherever podcasts are heard.  Check them out!Transcript:Host: Welcome to another episode of the engineering influence podcast. ACC is regular series of podcasts. We're here today with the three presenters of the close of business podcast, which they build is the one and only podcast for young STEM professionals. All three are engineers at black and Veatch. So why don't we start off by the, each of you introducing yourself and telling us a little about yourself.Kevin: All right. I don't know. I'll go ahead and my name is Kevin flaker and first thank you for having us on and letting us join your podcast. We've all three are engineers at Black & Veatch. I am an electrical engineer. I work in the solar design business. I design solar fields for a living and podcasting is, I guess as you would say, a side hustle for me.Becca: My name's Becca Schmidt. I'm also, I'm an engineer mechanical engineer who's been focused on designing a natural gas fired power plants and just transitioned over to to doing business development and sales, more client facing work.Ryan: And then I'm the third cohost. A name is Ryan Carlin. Instead of those two, I am a civil engineer, so he got all of covered. I have been focused in the power delivery group transmission line and substation work. So kind of diverse engineers within the power business. But all have love for podcasts. Yeah.Host: Yeah. I've really enjoyed it. I've listened to a few of them and they're really well done. It sounds like you guys have a lot of fun doing it. It, you, when you first started, you were saying that, you know, this is, this is from people who have never looked up on Google how to do a podcast. How did, how did you guys decide to do a podcast?Kevin: Yeah, so a couple of years ago, a few of us were pulled into somewhat of a roundtable here at Black & Veatch. And the purpose of the discussion was to look for ways for Black & Veatch to engage more in the community. We're a severely industrial or in the past we're heavy in the industrial power water, telecom businesses and not necessarily more on the commercial side. So we were just kind of throwing around ideas for ways for us to connect into the community. And I happened to just start getting into podcasts and listen to podcasts and love how much you can learn. So I threw this idea out there that, you know, we could create this podcast. It would be a way for us to engage with community on the different projects we're doing. The work we're doing at Black & Veatch. But then also selfishly it was going to be, if it went through a cool way for me to being a recent graduate, look up all these different cool industry technologies that were emerging as well as all the different things Black & Veatch was doing.Kevin: And being able to like research that for myself as well as share that on the podcast format with the community. And what that's transformed into today is not so much of a, here's what we do at Black & Veatch, but more of a, here's a generic STEM podcast where we talk about technology across, we try to reach all industries, not just power or water, telecom. Oh, you know, we talk about autonomous vehicles and the Hyperloop, just any really cool thing going on in the STEM industry and just bring that to the community. And I guess utilize Black & Veatch's knowledge when when applicable.Becca: And in addition to that, we talked a lot about engaging with the millennial workforce, the millennial group. We felt like there's this external perception of what engineers and people working in the STEM industry are really like. And the three of us kind of like to categorize ourselves as something that's kind of against the grain, not the typical stereotypical, nerdy, nerdy engineer, you know, and we wanted to present, you know, what it can be like to be an engineer, that it's this really cool and exciting thing and it doesn't have to be over complicated or super nerdy.Becca: It can be talking about just cool things going on in the STEM industry, literally over beers and communicating it in a really digestible, relatable way too.Ryan:  And that's kind of just to give a hindsight how we got the name close of business. So it was all meant around, you know, having to close the business, you know, when everyone goes home or goes to a happy hour, kind of just talking recent news or STEM-related stuff in a fun and kind of informal manner. So we try to kind of play on that and have an informative yet fun kind of atmosphere.Becca: Kind of a long winded response. But we put it all on the table.Host: It really comes across and I especially in your early ones when when you were sort of finding your feet what do, I mean all three of you are, are really quite young. I mean, I, if I'm right, I mean you're all graduated since like 2015 or 2014 is is what does that bring, do you think to your, your program? I mean, you know, the, the picture of the old stodgy engineer with the time and you guys are not that obviously, but it, what impact does your age do you think have on this?Ryan: I think I mean one is just a different perspective, you know, we don't know what we don't know type of thing, so we're not afraid to ask questions. Kind of along the same lines of our audience. We're learning just as much when we're preparing for these episodes as our listeners. So I mean, I think, I think that's one big thing that I see.Kevin: Yeah. I guess one of the focuses or one of the, one of the purposes for this podcast would be to kind of grow and influence STEM in younger generations, whether that be college students who are studying in the field and are, or maybe flirting with the idea of getting into STEM industry, but don't really know, like, you know, that's a huge entry point when you start talking science and tech. It's kind of scary, daunting at first or even high schoolers who are interested. So I think like we're able to bridge the gap to where we can communicate with the experts in the industry. We have the connections, but at the same time, we're still learning ourselves. So we're able to, as Ryan mentioned, ask the questions that the everyday listener would be asking. You know, we're not experts. We hardly know what we're talking about. And I think that's kind of our trick.Becca: Yeah, for sure. And I think a lot of the perception that of that I've had with the people that I work with here is that, you know, they're experts now, but what were they like when they were developing as young adults, young people in their career. And I think we're all kind of like finding ourselves when we're learning throughout our, our careers and also learning what it's like to be a young adult in early on in your career, in developing through all of that. It's something that people don't really talk about as much. And in reality, when we all started working full time, we didn't know we were doing, Oh, that's totally fine to community, still trying to communicate that, you know. And that's something that we are really passionate about engaging with our listeners on as well.Host: Yeah, no, you can hear the passion obviously, and the enthusiasm. I mean, what have you, have you learned about your listeners at all? Do you know who they are? You know, are they, are they the young people who are thinking about getting into STEM or are they other engineers?Ryan: I'd say it's kind of a wide range. So we've gone to college career fairs and some people have listened to the podcasts, you know, they love it and they say they get good stuff out of it. But then also, you know, we do episodes kind of internally and they're released and we have executives come up to us whether within black and Veatch or external companies, and they kind of share their interests and kind of excitement about the podcast. So, I mean, I think just, we're geared towards young professionals, but I don't think that really leaves us out of, you know, Quinn Robinson, who's on your guys's board. He's a big fan as well. And I want to call him a young professional. So it kind of all ages, I guess, in that sense. Yeah.Host: Yeah. How do you guys how do you come up with your, to your topics, the, I mean you've done 33 so far, that's a lot of things to think of and, and, and bring and research and bring to the air.Becca: Yeah. It's a combination of tapping into all of the different things that are all the different innovative things that are happening within Black & Veatch. A lot of the people that we've interviewed so far professionals that are doing really awesome, big innovative things within the company and we're excited about it and we want to communicate that with the, within the world, what we want to commute that out into the community. And then also just things we're interested in too. A lot of times it's us just we're on the internet work, curious reading about what's going on in that STEM industry and we'll talk about it amongst ourselves and we're like, this is a really cool thing to do, a podcast episode about.Kevin: And one cool thing that's happening is as we grow within Black & Veatch, we have more and more people reaching out to us with topic ideas or inviting us to go to conferences where, you know, we just came back from San Francisco at a Singularity University summit where there are topics talking about, you know, Bitcoin and digital currency, AI, space, like all these really cool topics and you know, we're getting invited to go there. So we find our topics via presenters at these conferences or you know, clients of Black & Veatch, you know, black and beaches worked with Tesla or Volkswagen with the electrify America. So, you know, our clients are also the ones who are out there innovating in this industry. So we're, we're being put in contact with a bunch of different people as well.Host: I mean, I tell that you guys were at Power Gen I mean, you guys do get around it. I mean, is it is it the podcast taking you there or are you going there and then using that for the podcast?Kevin: Well, I think it's 100% the podcast taking us there.Ryan: Yeah, we've definitely got a lot of support from within Black & Veatch. I mean they really liked the idea of the podcast and kind of what we bring to the table. And so Black & Veatch has really been supportive about, you know, giving us a budget. And that budget allows us to do things like, you know, buy new fancy equipment or go to these conferences or I may have you, so I really say it's a podcast that's really funded a lot of this. Yeah.Host: Yeah. I would say the you know, it doesn't feel like a Black & Veatch podcast if at all. It feel, I mean, I guess when you mention it, yeah, you do talk to a lot of Black & Veatch people, but it doesn't feel like you're doing this to promote the company, you know, which is great.Kevin: That's a very important point. We don't, we don't want to be a podcast that shoves Black & Veatch down the listeners throat because that will just be a turnoff in all honesty. It's an obvious marketing scheme and that's not what we are here. We're, we're basically utilizing our contacts because we work with these people. They know us, they reach out to us the most. But as we see I'm willing to bet if we were to look back, like the first half are mainly Black & Veatch centric, but as we started to expand and grow our network, we are focusing on I don't want to do you want to call it external initiatives and stuff like that. So we definitely want to utilize Black & Veatch when we can, but we also don't want to, you know, make it all about Black & Veatch.Host: Yeah. What looking back over all the, the episodes, what are some of your favorite episodes that people might want to, to listen to?Becca: Yeah. I think one of my personal favorites was when we had the opportunity to interview Eric Anderson who is the executive chairman for top golf and CEO for West River Group. That was a great opportunity because that's PR one because it was one of the most high profile people that we've been able to sit down and talk to, but also a lot of the business and leadership and entrepreneurship insights that he gave us were completely invaluable. And then also the additional content that we have on that episode. We focus on technology and sports and the three of us are really big sports fans. And so it was kind of like a wonderful merging of worlds and just us being able to really truly show our personality and show our interest on that episode. That's definitely one of my favorite ones. And Kevin's having a hard time deciding,Kevin: I've got a couple, I'll give you two, I guess. One of my favorites I guess I would say would be the Hyperloop, one of the Hyperloop discussions we had, and this was kind of more early on at around episode 10 or so. Yeah, but it was, I mean, Hyperloops kind of continued to get a lot of the limelight and just selfishly, you know, I learned a lot from doing that episode about what Hyperloop is. So I mean, I think that's on the kind of still applies today even though that was maybe one a year ago. And then the other one probably I would say is he's a little bit of a wild card. But Tom Friend we interviewed him at PowerGen. He just give a quick background. He's like, was what? He was in the air force and then now he w he was a consultant for Duke Energy. He's a scrum or like agility consultant. He's kind of all over the place. But super fascinating and intriguing guy. And that was probably one of my favoritesBecca: Talk about somebody who's passionate about learning. Tom Friend was the most passionate about learning.Ryan:  Yeah, he was, it was a fun interview. I think, you know, I just, I just want to say all of the guests you've had and all the topics we've covered are great. Let me just put that out there. My, my favorite is probably the Prekapa Sankar interview that we just completed at singularity university, mainly because this is a woman dominating the STEM industry at such a young age. She's on her second company right now and data and AI for good. Yeah. And that's like the future and that's where, you know, the probably going to be the dominating technology coming in the next 10, 15 years and she's already at the helm of it. And I'm more excited to have interviewed her then maybe about the topic just cause like I'm excited to see what she can do in the future.Becca: She's going to make a big impact on the planet. She, she already is, but she's gonna make really big impacts. So, yeah.Host: And I guess from your, from your visit out to Singularity or do you have other, other podcasts planned, maybe something on blockchain or something?Ryan: Yeah, we are. Blockchain episode fell through. We did get a little bit into it with Tom Friend, we'll say, but he, he was so passionate and so like educated on it that, you know, we try to slow him down and yeah, that's definitely something we need to do is like a block chain 101 episode because it is kind of like a really vague idea that's kind of hard to explain and process and we have a hard time understanding it sometimes. So definitely that would be something we want to help our viewers unders or listeners understand as well. So trust me, that's, that's on the list of ideas.Kevin: We do have an episode, one more episode from singularity to coming up with the CEO of Upwork. who was a Silicon Valley guy back in the PayPal and all that those days. So really cool guy. I got to sit down and talk with him about the future of work play more than anything else. So Upwork is a, what do you, freelance platform online like one of the largest and one of the largest in the world. And he has really great insights about what the future of the workforce is going to be like and how we need to adapt and how Upwork is helping the workforce adapt as well. Yeah. SoHost: Well you guys really get into a lot. I that you actually had, didn't you have one on space recently?Becca: We just released one on a little bit of a space topic. One of the more random, we interviewed the chief scientist, Bruce Betts from the planetary society. For those who aren't familiar with the planetary society, it's a non nonprofit crowdfunded space exploration and research company headed by the boy, bill Nye, bill Nye the science guy.Becca: Yeah, so it's his, his company. And Bruce bets was one of the people who led on the LightSail 2 mission. I can go into all sorts of details about that, but you can listen to our episode and you might learn a little bit more about what that technology is.Kevin: If you want to hear an interview that had absolutely no outline or plan, listen to that. Cause we literally grabbed him from off stage and interviewed him with no questions or anything, just kind of let the conversation go. And I think it was pretty funny and random because of that.Becca: And it's still super educational as well.Host: Well for, for if any of our members were listening and were thinking maybe they wanted to start a podcast, what, what would your, what your advice be for them to, to as a member of a member firm to get a successful podcast going?Ryan: Yeah. And I think this answer may apply to more than just a podcast. It's really anything that you think is kind of entrepreneurial within your company or just in general is I think just taking the bull by the horns and kind of holding yourself accountable. You know, Kevin was a ringleader of this, but just him making the statement that he thought it would be a good idea kind of puts the wheels in motion. And without that kind of first step you're never gonna actually achieve anything. So, you know, we, Kevin, myself, Becca, we didn't know how a podcast recording and the whole post-production, all that stuff, that was all new to us when we started out. But it's just something you kind of learn as you go. You know, it took us a while to release our first couple of episodes and kind of master what we we're doing. We've been doing it what for two years now and we're still not mastered. So yeah, just like any new skill or hobby, you know, it takes, takes time and takes initiative and action and kind of holding yourself accountable.Kevin: I guess from, from with inside a company, if we want to look at that mind frame, if you have an idea, I think in any successful company you're going to have leaders that support most ideas. And I think, yeah, like Ryan said, the biggest thing is speaking out, expressing your idea and then following through with it as Ryan said. But I think like the biggest thing was I spoke out in a meeting and there are leaders in that meeting that were willing to be like, you know what, let's run with this. We'll give you five hours a week, let's see what you can do. And since then, iteration after iteration, we've grown to have, you know, a larger budget but also make sure that whatever it is you're doing is something that you love. And I know that sounds kind of cliche, but one thing that we found is we're full time engineers.Kevin: So we work 40 plus hours a week doing engineering work or Becca with business development. And this is something we have to do on the side. And it's really hard to put in the extra hours when it's not something you enjoy. So you have to make sure you enjoy it first if you're really gonna be successful in it.Becca: I think just jumping off of things that they both said, we're really fortunate that there is leadership within Black & Veatch that supports innovation. They see the value in what we're doing here. And we feel really fortunate that there are leaders here that were willing to take a chance on us and help us progress through this whole project and see where it could go. So we're really thankful for that. And then in addition, yeah, the passion is super important. And then also just finding a voice that's different than what is out there now.Becca: We think that we had a, and we still do believe that we have a different perspective than anybody else out there on the podcast platform. And we have a voice and we have things to say and we're hoping that we're teaching people and they're learning and also just give, giving people a better perspective on what our industry is about and the kind of impacts we're wanting to make as well. Yeah.Ryan: And one last thing I would just add to that is, one thing I've noticed talking to a lot of these interviewees is most companies are passionate about kind of motivating and giving ownership to young employees. Most companies have a STEM related kind of program. And so I think you know, don't be afraid to kind of speak out and speak your idea. Like we've kind of been saying so far. Yeah.Host: Yeah. And from, you know, being in the industry, writing about the industry for the last 12 years, I mean, one of the big issues is how do you motivate your younger employees, you know, the, the baby boomers don't understand the millennials sort of thing. And this seems to be a an example of a way of doing it.Becca: 100%. Yeah. I think in general, us in the millennial generation are really motivated by kind of like a greater calling. I don't come to work everyday because I know I'm going to be sitting in responding to emails or doing calculations. It's because I know that I'm coming to work and I'm contributing to a better society, a better community, a better infrastructure, so that we as a community can live a healthier, more comfortable life. And I think that this is just another outlet for us to discuss that and try and get that out into the world a little bit more.Host: Well, great. Well that, that, that I think you've guys have covered the gamut here. So I'm, I really appreciate your coming on and I urge our our listeners to tune into the Close of Business podcast. You guys are on a Spotify, right?Ryan: Yeah. Spotify, Apple podcasts, any, any really podcast forum.Ryan: Yeah. The best way just to look up whatever you listen to on podcast closed the business and you'll find us. And hopefully you enjoy the episodes. And if you got questions or comments reply to us. But otherwise you can email us to that. cobpodcast@gmail.com. Awesome.Host: Well, thank you. 

The more a seller expands his net, the more buyers he can catch. Often on the Amazon seller revenue lines we see the lack of traction on the international side of the game. How can you get your brand safely and productively into other Amazon Markets? The truth is that Amazon UK or any other country off the .com grid are potential revenue streams and expansion opportunities if approached in the right way. Today's guest walks us through that expansion process step by step so that business owners and buyers can envision the opportunities to be had. Kevin Sanderson is a multiple six figure seller with over three years of experience on Amazon. When he started out simply selling on Amazon he had one item and very quickly turned that into about 80 skus. He learned that by expanding into the international marketplace he could target products that he could plug into that market successfully. He has a passion for helping others successfully sell on Amazon's International Marketplaces via his website and podcast and is here to tell you how you can succeed beyond dot com. Episode Highlights: Which products are best for which country and where to start in the sell. Reasons Kevin recommends starting in Canada to get your feet wet. Where to go next and how to get over the translation hurdle overseas. Why Germany stands out in the arena. The recommended steps and estimated time-frame for the expansion process. What Amazon offers by way of help. Differences in taxation in the international marketplaces. How to approach the customer service aspect in those markets. Services that Kevin offers for someone looking to expand internationally. The importance of attending ECommerce events for opening doors and connecting. Transcription: Mark: Joe welcome back from your vacation, you've been gone for a few weeks and Quiet Light Brokerage absolutely nothing happened because you aren't here. Joe: Did you missed me at all? I think I had an email reminder, a notification in there that said if you really need me find me on Whatsapp and no one needed me at all which is very humbling. The reality is that we think we're really important cogs of the wheel and if there's enough cogs you're not so nobody missed you at all. Mark: Well the truth is actually people would email you and then they would get my email and then I was home that they don't want to work with you they actually want to work with me so I've just been picking off all your potential clients. Joe: I love it, no, take all those 10 million dollar listings. Thanks, I appreciate that. Mark: Absolutely I appreciate it too, very much, and so does my wife. Anyways this week I want to talk about something that we've seen a lot of with Amazon Sellers. We look at these P&Ls and oftentimes what you see are these revenue lines on the P&Ls where it's your typical Amazon sales coming through and then you see this Amazon UK or Amazon Europe or something like that and you see some revenue kind of pop and then trail off after a while. And when you talk to the client or the seller about this the backstory is always the same. I thought about expanding to Europe and UK but I didn't really gain traction there and it was just a lot more work than I really anticipated so we've decided not to really do that. The fact is though Amazon UK, Amazon Europe, Amazon Canada, and some of these other countries are really, really good expansion opportunities but you have to go about it the right way and that's not always as straight forward as putting the product up and launching that store. You talked to somebody who we guess went over exactly in that process how do you actually expand into in other markets on Amazon. Joe: Yeah it's Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce. He's affiliated or associated with Scott Voelker who we enjoy from the Amazing Seller and Brand Accelerator Live. And Kevin talks about just that. Okay if you're going to expand start here then go there and then go there so that you're getting your feet wet and doing it in a way where you're learning without getting so frustrated you just throw your hands up and walk away which as he said I see too often. Interestingly enough yesterday I'm doing a valuation call and exactly what you talked about revenue line for Amazon.com and Amazon Europe overseas and there were 3 or 4 months of revenue starting to climb, climb, climb, and then nothing because that particular individual just got frustrated. She didn't think she was going to get a bang for a buck there because it was so complicated and confusing for her. But the reality is she took on too much all at once. Kevin's approach is more methodical and I like it. It's simple. It's clean. It's logical. It's not going to be earth-shattering for anybody listening. But what it is going to do is going to give them reinforcement to what they probably already know and what they should do and hopefully will do as well. Mark: Yeah fantastic topic we do have a shout out to give to somebody who guessed the right intro to one of our podcast and you got that email, Joe. Joe: I did it's from Westin Woodelf, I've got a cold after this vacation, Westin Woodelf, he  sent me an email actually while I was on vacation. It is one of the very few emails that I checked. He guessed The Founder which is the story of McDonald's the movie clip. So shout out to you Westin and thanks for listening. I appreciate all the kind words and I assure you we will get more people that bought e-commerce businesses or online businesses from us and we'll get them back on the podcast 6, 12 months after that something that he said he enjoys listening to Mark and wants to hear more of. Mark: Yeah and you know I went to a meetup; a shout out to the people that I met up with for the Rhodium Minneapolis Red Calibers meet up just a couple of weeks ago. I got some good feedback on the podcast there as well you know the point here being not to say guys you have to praise us because we need it for our egos more what do you want to hear. And I got some really good feedback on that. If you guys have stuff that you want to hear or a style of podcast that really stands out to you, let us know, send us an email. We do insist that we want to create content that's useful for you and helpful. And again keep guessing those movie titles that should be fun. The Founder is a great movie as well highly recommended for anyone that loves entrepreneurship. Joe: And we actually respond to emails. Its inquiries@quietlightbrokerage.com Mark and I get those personally. We also have our own personal email addresses which are really complicated joe@quietlightbrokerage.com or mark@quietlightbrokerage.com and Mark as a K, not a C. Mark: I spell it the right way. Joe: You do spell it the right way, sorry everybody else. Alright, let's get to this Kevin Sanderson, Maximizing Ecommerce, how to get your brand safely and productively in other Amazon markets. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from Quiet Light Brokerage and today we've got Kevin Sanderson from Maximizing Ecommerce on the podcast. Kevin, how are you today? Kevin: I'm doing excellent. Thanks for having me. Joe: Where in the world are you? Kevin: I am in south-ish Florida, about 35 minutes north of West Palm Beach. Joe: Alright so we're recording at the end of July so you're definitely inside the house as always, right? Kevin: Oh yes, it's nice and humid. Joe: So as I said in the pre-call here that we don't do fancy intros so why don't you tell the audience a little bit about yourself and what your background is. Kevin: Sure. So I've been an e-commerce seller for about 4 years. I remember when I got into the whole thing I just happened to be looking at my phone podcasts and this podcast called the Amazing Seller podcast came up. I was like this sounds interesting so I listened to it. I was like this sounds like something I want to go towards and I went out to Walgreens and they were closing out the summer specials of like whatever they're going to close out to make room for back to school and I bought a bunch of those blue cooler thingy's you'd use in your cooler to keep your cans cooled in the freezer. Joe: Okay. Kevin: And I remember sending some of them off to Amazon with a few other things. And I got an e-mail that my stock had been checked in and I was playing with the app like most people do once you start doing this for a while. It keeps saying this 0 sales, 0 dollars, all this and then all of a sudden I refresh it and there's a 1. I was like hey someone bought it. It was like the day it got checked in. I was prepared like mentally that it might take weeks or whatever but this just like rush of adrenaline came over me. And I went running into the living room and my wife and was like you have to see this and I almost like threw the phone at her. I was so excited. But at first, she thought it was insane just kind of like where is my husband who is this person but then she realized I was just excited about it and then she kind of got it. And so from then on, I've been hooked on the whole e-commerce game. Joe: So it's that easy just go to Walmart, Walgreens, buy some stocked out items and put it on Amazon and you're in business. Everybody succeeds that way, right? Kevin: Yes I came to learn there's more steps in the process for that. It was like one of the things I learned very early on in my resale arbitrage career which is short-lived was that I didn't like having to keep finding stuff and bending it in. So at least what it did was it clicked the switch in my head that like okay this is possible. It's not just I'm hearing someone talking about it. I actually saw like the 0 go to a 1 and it became real to me. Like okay now let's go after building my own brand. And so the fall was coming up and at the time I was a high school football official and I decided to take a year's worth of earnings and put that off to the side to go towards my 1st product. And so from let's say February of the following year which would have been 2016 I put up my own branded products and then I kept reinvesting into it. And then back in December of 2018, I left my job and it was like I'm going to do all this full time. And I now have about 80 products that I sell. 80 different SKUs as well as…I sell mostly on Amazon but still try to diversify as much as possible. One of the things that's been very successful for me is selling internationally; so I sell in Canada, the 5 European marketplaces, Japan, and I'm about to launch in Australia and Mexico. Joe: Okay and that's what we're going to dig into today folks is how to expand beyond Amazon.com into these other marketplaces. You know I have multiple valuation calls a week talking to people that are looking to exit someday and just yesterday I talked to somebody that we have…she's a friend of Scott Voelker from The Amazing Seller who you're friends with as well. And she tried to expand to Europe and found that it was just too complex and complicated. So it's funny one of the growth areas that savvy; not savvy, that's the wrong word because this person is actually very savvy. One of the growth areas that people with a kind of international experience see is international. They'll look at an Amazon business it's US only and they can see where it may plug into one of the European markets or all of them. Whereas others they try it and they fail because it's just at a level of detail that is not good for them and their business and they stick to one; focus on the US. You set up a business for that where you're helping people expand beyond the US. So talk to me about A. which country because I have a couple in mind I want to see which countries are the best or if it's not that simple that different products are better for different countries. Kevin: Well there's a little bit of different products are the best for different countries. But one simple thing people can do is if their product is selling in the US and they just look up the keyword of how someone might find their product, so if they are selling garlic presses as our friend Scott would use or fishing lures they could look up garlic presses or fishing lures on Amazon.ca or Amazon.co.uk which are the Canadian and UK versions of Amazon and just go to Jungle scout and Jungle Scout will give you an idea. Now don't get caught up in the numbers but what I would say is if you are making sales in the US and similar products to yours are making some sales internationally in those international marketplaces it's at least worth evaluating. You should at least try. Now to your point, there are some hoops you have to jump through. One of the things I recommend to people if you're going to start off with go into Canada because logistically I personally find it easier. They have what's called GST, HST which is their goods and services tax, harmonized sales tax, it's all kind of the same thing but for the most part most people are just going to register with the federal government there and it works very similar to how sales tax work in the US except it's simpler for most people. And in most cases, they're going to have to file for that sales tax once per year. Joe: So do you do that just for the exercise of learning how to go international because it's easy because it is Canada, are you going to get your bang for your buck there, right? The population is 10% of the US so you can expect 10% of your US revenue in terms of Amazon. How do you; is it really worth it? And I think I know the answer. I think I know what you're going to say but I want to hear you say it. Is it really worth it in terms of dollars or is it a combination of dollars and revenue and the exercise of going international and getting comfortable with it? Kevin: I would say all of the above. So the way I look at it is you have a net and as widen that net in the sea of Amazon you're going to catch more fish. And some of those fish are exclusive to; and by fish I mean customers, some of those are exclusive to Canada or they're exclusive to the UK. And as you catch more of those fish you're going to get more sales. So the way I like to look at it is if you said I'm just going to go into all the international marketplaces if you try to do it all at once it's going to be too much. Canada is relatively simple. I think it's a good place to get your feet. So what I did was I went to Canada and then I went to the UK that which is their sales tax is a little more complex and there's more kind of like landmines you could go hit on that you don't want to. So it's best to start off with Canada going to the UK. And then you can go into other parts of Europe and use UK as a base of operations. And the nice thing is if you go into the other marketplaces in Europe you'll most likely have to translate your listings but at least if you're starting off in the UK and Canada you're talking about 2 English speaking countries. So that also lowers some of the barriers. Joe: Okay, so you're saying a little bit of everything going into Canada so I think it's a great idea that people start there. And if all you do; if you're doing $100,000 in discretionary earnings or profit and you expand to Canada and all it does is add $10,000 it's not hard. Kevin will talk about a little bit in terms of how to do it and can help people do it but that additional $10,000 in discretionary earnings if your business is worth a 3 time multiple you just added $30,000 a month to the overall value of your business if you decide to exit someday. But I like that baby-stepping it doing one country at a time starting with Canada and then another English speaking country being the UK. As far as VAT it is complicated. We've done podcasts on it with Avask accounting; the folks over there. Kevin: That's what I use. Joe: Great. Folks use them as well. I know Melanie they refer people back and forth to us. Anytime we've got someone buying a brand that's selling in the UK we always connect people with them because they're good. And for folks, that's AvaskAccounting.co.uk A-V-A-S-K. In terms of the next country so you're going to go Canada then you're going to go UK where do you go next? Kevin: I would say most likely Germany. Germany outside of the UK is going to have some of the best sales in Europe. Now you're starting to get into a different language but there's translation services out there. Amazon has translation services but there are some asterisks that you might not actually be eligible for kind of strange. Joe: I don't think the automated translation services work all that well and here's why. I was just in France and Switzerland and used Google Translate. It kind of worked. I'm literally driving down the highway from I think at the airport to Paris and I'm in the car with an Uber driver and he's got Google Translate up on his phone. I've got it up on mine. I say something and it spits it out in French. We're having this weird conversation but it didn't quite fully translate it properly. So I couldn't imagine using a translation service, an automated translation service like that. What kind of experience do you have with that if you're going to translate something to German? Do you hire individual people that are native speakers or do you use a translation service? Kevin: So I've tried all kinds of different things. I've had Amazon help me with translations and theirs is essentially machine in most cases. Joe: I got it. Kevin: The ones I've seen it's machine translated and then a person checks it. Now the issue is who's checking the checker? So if you're English speaking and you're trying to check whether or not German is correct it's got to be a regular translator. I found a German translator that I've had good luck with and I had someone else check it. So if you find one let's say on Upwork or Fiverr or something and you have someone translate something for you, see if you can hire someone else to critique it. Or if you know someone who speaks German or Spanish or whatever language you want to translate have someone else verify it for you and then you know okay now I've got someone good. I've got; actually oddly enough in the office building, I work out of there's a translation company down the hall that actually they've worked with American Translator Association translators. They have contracts with all the court systems and they've done stuff for GE and Disney and a bunch of other companies. So I've found them to be pretty reputable too. But if you're not 100% sure always have someone else check it. Even if you're hiring let's say on Fiverr and you give like a paragraph of stuff, you can hire 3 or 4 people and have them check against each other. And whoever's getting the best load out of everyone else is probably the one to go with. Joe: Awesome. I think that's a great idea. There's been times I've looked at Amazon listings and I could tell it's been written by somebody that does not speak English as their native tongue and it's obvious and I lose confidence and I don't necessarily want to buy that product. And I imagine it's the same somebody is in Germany thinking it. As far as the countries go, I know that one product is not going to be perfect for all countries but from a brokering standpoint and what I've seen over the last several years is that Germany stands out amongst all of the European countries as the one that seems to bring people that are exiting that have the most sizable business, sizable revenue. Why do you think that is? Is there something about the German marketplace that makes it stronger and larger than the other marketplaces? Is it population? Is it because of the affluent nature of the individuals in that country or is it just pure happenstance? Kevin: I think it's a combination of several different things. So I think as; to take a step back as you go outside of the US and you have more hoops to jump through fewer people want to take those hoops. And then as you start getting into other marketplaces that aren't English now that's another hoop that you have to jump through of getting it translated. So fewer and fewer sellers I think are willing to do that from what I found and so you have less competition. So then combine with I think the population size and the people in Germany; I still do better in the UK than I do in Germany. It could just be my product but I've heard people say the opposite. So it just depends and you never know until you test it. Joe: Okay, Alright so 1st step go to Canada, give it a shot, 2nd UK, and then 3rd another country; Germany. What services are out there? How do you expand? What steps do you recommend someone take in order to go through this process of expanding? And like how much time would you give it? We've talked about 3 countries here so far, what kind of timeframe would you give that in terms of checking those off and moving and expanding into these countries? Kevin: Well if you're doing it alone what you would do is you would 1st register with whatever governmental agency you need to register with. So if it's Canada you go to the Canadian Revenue Agency and register for what's called non-resident importer status and also a GST, HST number. It's all basically the same number, it's just the programs that you're under. Joe: Can all that be done through your Amazon accounts when you want to expand to different countries? Because they're always asking you to expand to different countries, are they offering those services or connections? Kevin: So Amazon will often times help you. Here's my take on Amazon. If they're calling you, answer the phone. It's the way I look at it. See what they have to say. Now I don't want to disparage Amazon but what I've come to find is the people at Amazon they're always very well-intentioned but they're siloed. So no one fully understands the whole journey as a seller that you're going to go through like another seller. So I'm happy to help walk people through that. If people have other friends that are doing it check with your friends and get some advice as well. Just because there are a lot of pieces that even some services like let's say you know I know that there's freight forwarders that will help you get registered in Canada or another country but they may be not getting you into all the programs that you really should be in because they're looking at it from their standpoint of like okay to get stuff across the border you need this but maybe you also need something else that they didn't register you for because that's not necessarily their focus. And then Amazon, their focus is really in my experience the folks who are calling you saying hey sign up in wherever country they're just trying to get you into that country and then from there it's okay go for it. Joe: Okay. First, do the research on that country and make sure that your products are selling or something similar is selling and you've got buyers there. Okay, and how are you dealing with the taxes and registrations? Can you cover that a little bit? We had Avask on the podcast talking about that. Can you talk briefly about the differences on how taxes work on products in the US versus over in Europe? Kevin: Okay. Well, I think the simplest way to look at it is you have 2 buckets of taxes. You have sales tax and you have income tax. So income tax you're still most likely as long as you're using your US-based entity you're going to still owe Uncle Sam assuming someone's from the US, but you're still going to owe Uncle Sam for income taxes or whatever country you live in. So then in that country, there's going to be some sort of tax on the sale; so whether it's a GST, and the VAT; whatever. Joe: What does GST stand for? Kevin: Oh sorry goods and services tax which is the sales tax of Canada. So the nice thing about Canada is in most cases and a disclaimer here is I'm not a tax preparer so please make sure that you check with an appropriate tax professional about your own situation. But what I found is for most people and in talking to people that do this in the tax world is that you're most likely going to in Canada register for the goods and services tax and the harmonized sales tax. It's all just the same thing. Basically, federal tax and you file once per year. It gets added onto the sale just like here in the US. So if they live in a province where let's just say it's 8% and it's $20 then now 1.60 is added on and then you'll remit and file and then you actually in Canada have a few ways that you can save money on what you're giving to the government because if you pay GST at the border or some other way that you're paying you can get credits back. And then it works kind of the same way with credits back in Europe. Now Europe is where it starts getting a little bit more complicated. So the simplest way to look at Europe is where is the inventory getting imported into and where is it being housed. So if it comes across a border you have the requirement to file for VAT or to register and file for VAT in that country. If it's being housed in that country you're required to register and file for that country. So I think the simplest way to do it in Europe is to go into the UK and then keep your inventory in just the UK and they'll allow you to do what's called the European fulfillment network and have your products shipped to the other 4 countries from the UK. Now a lot of times what some people might steer you towards is what's called the pan-European program. It's a little bit of savings but I don't think it's really worth it because you save about a Euro per fulfillment fee and so you think oh wow that's going to add up over time. So the going rate is probably about 7,200 euros per year to be tax compliant, to have somebody do all the tax filings for you and then you end up with like Amazon will put some of your stock in Poland and the Czech Republic those aren't even countries where they have market places but they just store them there. So again once it's stored in a country now you have a VAT requirement and you might have to file; they're filing monthly for you and you have to pay. So you might have to pay the equivalent of like $10or $8 some months to the Polish government and it's just; it's almost like a little nap on your side and it's just like why am I having to do this. Joe: Right. Kevin: So it's expensive and what I came to learn is well I would say the best thing for most people is in Europe you want to sign up for what's called the flat rate scheme. Now when we think of taxes and scheme we think about handcuffs and going to jail. But in Europe scheme just means calculation method. So in most cases, someone who's listening to this is most likely going to be an online retailer and basically, the way it works is if let's say they sell a product in let's say the UK for 12 pounds. The price is actually 10 pounds and 2 pounds of VAT is included in that because the thing that's different about Europe is the price includes the VAT. So just to walk through that math there so you would owe 2 pounds for that sale to the government minus whatever you paid in at the border and whatever other VAT credits you had. Now if you're on the flat rate scheme you don't have to keep all your receipts for everything else. You just file 7½ % so that; just to make the math simple there using that 12 pound product you really just, it's 10 pounds is what you're selling it for so you would owe 7.5% of that which would be 75 pence which is like their pennies over there instead of having to figure out all that other nonsense of like credits and all that. What I found and I could be completely wrong on this is my accountants, they told me, there's not a flat rate scheme currently in the other countries. So if their VAT is 22 or 23% you owe that full 22, 23% as opposed to; because basically, the way it works is instead of like in the US tax is based on, sales tax is based on where the customer lives, in Europe it's where is it being dispatched from; so where they're shipping it from. So if everything is being shipped from the UK you pay the equivalent VAT to the UK. Joe: So that's a pretty substantial saving. You're saving if you're doing penny you're saving a dollar or a euro but the percentages that you're talking about could be pretty substantial in terms of saving if you're shipping off from the UK. Kevin: Yes. Joe: Plus it sounds like your life's going to be a little simpler too. Kevin: Yes. Joe: And I think that's why a lot of people don't expand or expand to the UK and then pull back because it is a little complicated if you do too much too fast. So I like your simple approach here in terms of the flat rate scheme and sticking to the UK. What are you finding in terms of customer service and things of this nature? How do you handle that aspect of it when you're dealing with the European market place if you're in an English speaking native? Kevin: A great question, so there are services out there that will do customer service for you. I've had translators make templates for me because there's a variety of issues that may come up if you've been doing this a while you kind of know what questions people are going to ask you. But also you can do and this is not necessarily something you have to worry too much about because at the end of the day Amazon requires that there's customer service for that customer in the native language. If they're fulfilling it they look at it pretty much as they're handling the customer service. So you will get some emails from time to time that you have to respond to within 24 hours just like you do in the US. And so I sometimes will take the message put it in Google Translate see what it is in English and then I flip it around. So if I'm going back from English to let's say Italian, I then write my response copy and paste the Italian or whatever language I'm using, send it to the customer and I've not really had anyone write back and say I can't believe you just said that to me. Joe: Alright, so it does work in many cases. I did like it. It was an in-depth long conversation about soccer and kids and family with an Uber driver in France where it doesn't work. But I'm sure that in customer service it does work fairly well. Kevin: Yeah like my product didn't arrive, okay we'll send you a new one, usually that that type of thing works pretty well and you can figure out and they can figure out what you mean. Joe: Pretty simple. So, Kevin, you've gone from living in the corporate world to being an entrepreneur. Now you've got 80 different SKUs and you're also; you've got the Maximizing Ecommerce podcast, you are helping other people expand internationally as well. Are you doing that through Maximizing Ecommerce? How does anybody listening that maybe just bought a business and wants to expand internationally is it a service that you offer to help people go beyond the US? Kevin: Yes. So what they could do is if they wanted to go beyond the US actually for your listeners I'd be willing to do a free 30-minute strategy session; no obligation. They could just go to MaximizingEcommerce.com/quiet and it will take them to a page where they can schedule something with me. Just looking for people of course that have an existing business, if they're looking to get started I'll give them a free checklist on how to get their 1st product kind of like how I did. Joe: We'll put that in the show notes as well. Okay. Kevin: Yes and then also if they wanted to hear more live you and I will be hanging out together in September in Fort Worth at Brand Accelerator Live and I will be speaking about selling internationally and then Quiet Light will be there as a sponsor. And then you, I will plug you as well. You will be on stage speaking about how to maximize your sale if you're looking to sell your business one day. Joe: Yeah for folks listening that don't know some of the names we've talked about, Scott Voelker is an entrepreneur, an influencer, a speaker, a motivator, he's got the podcast the Amazing Seller. Scott's local to me sort of in South Carolina. He's got a place up here North Carolina. And Kevin's working with him on Brand Accelerator Live which is Scott's 1st big event. He's bringing in the best people in the marketplace; Greg Mercer from Jungle Scout,  Mike Jackness from eComCrew and a whole lot of other folks. And I'm sort of in a very, very low tier of those folks. Greg and Mike and the other folks like that are very, very well known. Kevin: We're really excited that you're going to be there. Joe: Well thank you. But it's a place where I've heard in terms of the Amazing Seller podcast and what you're doing with Scott it's a place where I've talked to so many people who get such value to grow; and this is the thing, grow their Amazon business but take it beyond Amazon as well and learn about how to market off of Amazon and Shopify and e-mail marketing and Facebook or things of that nature and in the affiliate world and blog world and all that stuff. So I think Scott's done an amazing job with that. I love that you're working with him on this 1st and then we're excited to be there. Anybody that hasn't looked it up yet it's Brand Accelerator Live, is that right? Kevin: Yeah Brand Accelerator Live. They can go to BrandAcceleratorLive.com and if someone is listening to this and is saying well I've never been to a live event before whether it's Brand Accelerator Live or something else if they're listening to this in the future go to something. You never know what's going to come out of it. Joe: I'm going to interrupt and say yes that's absolutely true. You know when I 1st started doing what I do here in Quiet Light I had to go to an event and I think the 1st one I went to was in New Orleans. I can't even remember it but it was a big event and I hated it. Because I didn't like; I'm a bit of an introvert. Doing this right now, talking, podcasts, it's great. It's easy. I'm a bit of an introvert but I was at an event I forget exactly where it was and I heard the name Mike Jackness and I said to myself I'm going to find Mike. And I went to be pre-party and I saw Mike sitting there on a couch. I sat down beside and said hello and now Mike and I are really good friends. I sold his business. We've done podcasts together. We've got a lot of relationships in terms of people we know together. And I think he's made an impact on my life and my business and I've hopefully made the same on his. And when you see people; you go to an event like this and you see people standing around in a circle talking to each other and you don't know who they are, your instant thought is oh they all know each other I don't want to step in there that's really awkward. The reality is that they don't know each other. They're just getting to know each other. And I've been in a situation where literally I'm standing around like that somebody walks up and just sort of shoulders their way and starts to nod their head up and down and says hello and we had all just met each other and he came in and met us as well. So it's a hard thing to do but I think in this e-commerce world, listening to podcasts like this is invaluable but the most important thing you can do is get out there and meet people face to face and shake their hand. And then you can connect with them directly about what they're doing in their business and what you're trying to do with yours; and in this case with you taking Amazon businesses beyond the US and into the other marketplaces in a strategic process and how to do that so that you're going to have a higher success rate. So anybody listening get out there and go to a Mastermind event, whatever it might be, Brand Accelerator Live is not going to be a large one; it's down in Fort Worth in September; what are the dates on it? Kevin: September 18th through 20th and then we also have a Mastermind for high-level sellers on the 21st and we still have a couple of slots available for those mastermind folks. But yeah I definitely recommend that you go to something. So to your point like sometimes you will have that feeling like oh gosh it's going to be hard connecting with people, I remember the 1st e-commerce event I went to and I walked into the opening reception and I go to the bar and kind of have that feeling like okay there's safety at the bar, the bartender is giving me the drink. Joe: Unless you're in Mexico or the Dominican Republic but yeah, okay. Kevin: Right exactly. So I turned around and I'm like okay not to go or I do have to like talk to someone. So there was this woman standing there and it was like hi I'm Kevin and then we just started talking and you know I still keep in contact with her to this day. And I started talking to some other people. And so just a random story here is that at this live event I got to know Scott Voelker and met him in another live event because there's that power in connection where you're meeting people live as opposed to even on the phone or messaging and Facebook groups or whatever case is and he was talking about how you wanted to do more to help people in the intermediate to advanced stage. And I like to think of the world as kind of like a puzzle with pieces that all have to come together that's why I do this international thing and then things to work in hotels and conventions. So I told them I think you should do a live event and I can help you with it because I had that experience. And I was thinking like he's going to say oh no [inaudible[00:37:19.2] whatever thank you graciously because he's a nice guy. But he actually said yes tell me more how would we do this. And so this has become an opportunity that's opened up doors for me because I talked to Scott. And I know all kinds of people, maybe it's not Scott Voelker that they're connected with someone who opened up some door connected them to a supplier, they found out some like I never knew about that service or that whatever and it opened up their mind to something else because they were having a conversation over drinks, breaking bread, or just talking or someone in between sessions at a live event because e-commerce sellers for the most part especially the ones that are doing it full time if they're at their house or whatever and they're just in front of a keyboard all day they want to connect with other people. Joe: Yeah. Kevin: Or if they're doing it as a; they have a full time job they are like I don't know anyone else that does this and so all of a sudden he's like surrounded by people that all do the same thing and most e-commerce sellers are not surrounded all day by other e-commerce sellers so it's like a treat being in the same room. Joe: And you'll be amazed when you connect with folks like that how you figure out after a time that there's a half a dozen people in my surrounding area and then you can have a mini sort of mastermind group where you just get together for drinks once a month or something like that. So I think really important number one thank you for your time and helping people figure out how to expand beyond Amazon.com because it is going to bring more value for their bank account and an eventual sale as well. It's going to bring more value. But for those folks that haven't done it get to a live event, meet people face to face, it will make a difference in your business and in your life in my opinion and experience. It's hard to do. I tell you it is hard to do. It's what I do now that I've got this drink in my hand? You turn around and you say hello to someone and just take your hand out. Kevin: Exactly. Joe: And you end up being amazed with value you didn't get in that situation. Again MaximizingEcommerce.com, BrandAcceleratorLive.com, Kevin you're a good man. I appreciate your time and I look forward to seeing you in September. Kevin: I'm excited for it. Thanks for having me. Links and Resources: Kevin's Website Kevin's Podcast Listener Promo from Kevin Brand Accelerator Live 2019

Did you know down payment assistance programs are real? And that you might qualify? Listen to learn more. Freebie: First time home buyer - the master checklist’s comin' your way! Level up: New Home Buyer’s Guide comprehensive ecourse Contributors to this episode include: Host - Jeremy Goodrich  Copy Editing - Talia Chakraborty If you enjoyed this episode, stick around: SUBSCRIBE on Apple Podcasts.  REVIEW the show and SHARE with friends. JOIN the New Home Buyers Guide course to own the home buying process and the home of your dreams. With a 100% money back guarantee, you’ve got nothing to lose and a sweet house to gain. Thanks for listening!  More great stories & information at: YouTube - Blog - Podcast Insta - Course Full Transcript: Jeremy Goodrich: Hey there, new home buyers, Jeremy Goodrich here. I am that guy. That guy that bought my first home many, many years ago and had no idea what I was getting into. I didn't use a realtor, I didn't have an inspection, I didn't have a clue what documents I was signing, and I ended up, you guessed it, buying a beat-up old house that I spent years fixing only to sell for way less than I bought it for. When it comes to home buying, I am the story of what not to do. But that guy, that guy is not you. You are two times smarter, you're three times more organized, and you're ten times better looking than he was. You're going to find the right home for the right price, and you're going to have fun doing it. That process starts right here with the New Home Buyers Guide podcast. We're glad you joined us. Hey there, new home buyers. It's Jeremy and we are at episode five of the New Home Buyers Guide podcast. This episode is so important, it's all about down payments, but very specifically down payment assistance programs. If you qualify, governments at state, local, and federal levels could potentially help you buy a house by giving you some money for the down payment. Our guest today is going to talk in detail about that process, so you can see if you qualify for that program and if it's something that you can try and do, because it is really like free money. He'll describe that, so I don't want to over state it. Listen to our guest and let him describe how the program works. Our guest today is another friend of mine who works in the home buying process. He's a lender, that means he works for a bank and he puts together loans for people so that they can buy a house. He specializes in loans that connect with first-time home buyers that maybe qualify for down payment assistance. I've been lucky enough to have him help lots of times with questions that I have or my clients have had about lending, and this particular question, I really wanted to dig in with him, because I think the answers are fascinating. Our guest today's name is Kevin Cade. He works at Old National Bank, and he's going to talk about down payment assistance programs. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Thank you for being with us today. Kevin Cade: You're welcome, Jeremy. Good to be here. Jeremy: We're going to talk about something really specific today. We're not talking generally about mortgages, we're talking about down payments, and specifically down payment assistance programs. Programs for people who could use assistance with their down payment. I guess maybe the place to start is, what's a down payment? Kevin: Well, a down payment is a requirement by any type of loan program you have for folks to put money down to qualify for that particular program. That varies from agency to agency, basically. Jeremy: And are there common amounts that someone, that a bank expects from someone for a down payment to give them a loan? Kevin: Well, there's minimums. For example, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, conventional type loans, require a minimum of 5% down. But they also have programs that allow 3% down with income restrictions, so the folks have to make under a certain threshold of income to qualify for the lower down payment programs. They also typically have to have some kind of home buyer training for those two programs. Jeremy: So, someone who doesn't have the money for a down payment, doesn't have that 5% of the purchase price of the home that they want to buy, do they have options for help with that? Kevin: They absolutely do. The government, basically, local, federal, and state, each provide different programs for down payment assistance. Here in Bloomington, Indiana, we have what's called the HAND department, it's a department of the city of Bloomington that provides training and down payment assistance to folks who are purchasing properties in the city of Bloomington. The Federal Home Loan Bank also offers a program called the Home Ownership Program, better known as HOP, and that's a different amount of down payment assistance, and it is a federal type program. And then, at the state level, the Indiana Housing Community Development Authority also has a program that is based on the amount of loan you're getting. These programs all require some type of home buyer training and a maximum amount of income that the people that want to qualify for it, based on the number of folks in their family, have to qualify. Jeremy: So let me see if I've got it right. Generally, if you don't have the money for down payment, and you still want to purchase a house, there are some options. They come from the government, generally, and they could come from either the federal or the state or your local city government, potentially. And there are stipulations associated with that. Kevin: That's true. Jeremy: So, income would probably be the major one. Is that right? Kevin: Yes. And the income parameters for those programs are basically the same. It depends on the family size. It's a percentage of the median income in the area you live in, or the county you live in. For example, with the HAND department, I'll give you a couple of examples that'll kind of give you the range. If you have a couple, or two folks that are trying to qualify for their down payment assistance, they have to make less than $39,950 household income. And it goes all the way up to eight, so if you have six kids in a family with the parents, the maximum amount of income is $65,900 on that program, so they have to make less than that. Jeremy: So in our city, Bloomington, Indiana, we've got these numbers based on median income in our town, and so likely if there is a city program where other people live in different cities, these numbers would be different because they would be based on the median income in that city. Did I get that right? Kevin: That's correct. And all that's based on population density or demographics and income averages within each of those areas, basically by county. Jeremy: Okay, cool. So let's say I fit the income expectation for either a federal, state, or city program. What do I need to do to apply for that? Kevin: Well, the first thing you have to do is, you have to take some kind of home buyer training. There are a number of ways to do that. As an example, the HAND department here in the city of Bloomington offers a home buyer training class almost quarterly. It varies somewhat, but they learn about every aspect of buying a home. I've actually referred people to that program that don't even qualify for the down payment assistance, but that want to learn about the process of getting a home, which can be very complicated. They take that training just to find out about home owner's insurance, the mortgage process. A realtor speaks and talks about the process of looking and finding a home. A home inspector talks about how home inspections work and why you should have one. There's a variety of good knowledge they gain from taking these classes, and it also qualifies them then for the down payment assistance. Jeremy: Okay, so you have to fit an income, and a lot of times you have to take a class. That class could be in your local space, like the one here in Bloomington, or I think there's some online classes sometimes for the federal assistance, too. Different types of classes that you need to take that teach you about how to buy a house and how the process works, right? Kevin: Absolutely. For example, the mortgage insurance companies online usually offer home buyer training. So that qualifies you for the same down payment assistance. Jeremy: Okay, cool. And so, how much money can you get? How much assistance is possible with these down payment programs? Kevin: It varies from year to year. They do change every once in a great while. The city of Bloomington, for example, is a $5,000 down payment assistance program. The home ownership program with Federal Home Loan Bank is an $8,000 down payment assistance program. You can use those in tandem and actually have $13,000 of forgivable down payment assistance. Jeremy: Wow. So you can use more than one if you qualify for them and follow through with the expectations of them. Kevin: Not all banks offer the option of doing both, but some of us do. Jeremy: So, is your mortgage lender in control of whether you can do these programs or not? Should you go to the lender first and ask them if they do these programs before doing them? Kevin: Absolutely. First of all, if you're trying to do both, you want to make sure that the bank you're talking to or the lender you're talking to offers both. The banks sometimes have their own requirements for these programs. Credit score, for example. It might be a higher threshold that you have to have as far as your credit score to qualify at one bank as it would possibly for another. Jeremy: Okay, cool. All right, super cool. I didn't realize you could do more than one, which is really, really neat. So you can even do more than one. Kevin: Absolutely. Mm-hmm (affirmative). Jeremy: But you definitely need to talk to your mortgage lender ahead of time, it sounds like that's a major factor in the process. If you're working with a lender that doesn't accept any of these programs, Kevin, would you suggest then looking around for maybe another lender that's capable of handling these programs? Kevin: Absolutely. Just as important as if you're checking to see if a bank offers the type of program you do. For example, not all banks do VA loans. If you're a veteran of the military service, that's an excellent program. It's 100% financing, they don't have the mortgage insurance on that program, they're a little more lenient on credit, because they understand someone that's gone out of the country to fight for their country literally sometimes loses control of the ability to make their payments and that kind of thing. So it's a great program for military folks. Jeremy: Okay. Lastly, is there really anything else that folks would need to do as a part of this program, they're going to their lender, they're making sure that the programs fit, they're talking about their income, making sure that their income fits, they are going to the different programs, potentially looking at more than one. Is there anything else that they would need to do as a part of this process that would be important for them to know? Kevin: No. Absolutely not. That's probably the most important thing, just like you want to research lenders when you're trying to make a decision. Maybe not every lender in one area, but at least choose two or three to see what their rates are, what their closing costs are, if they have these programs. All of the aspects of borrowing money, it's really important to make sure you're getting the deal you want and that you're qualified for it, and they offer what you need to do as far as down payment assistance or any other type of aspect of mortgage lending. Jeremy: Okay. Do they have to pay this down payment assistance back in any way? Is it a loan of some kind? Is there anything associated with that? Kevin: That's a great question. No, it's actually forgivable. Both the HOP program and the HAND money, for the city of Bloomington, are forgiven over a five year period. They forgive 20% of the down payment assistance. After you've owned that home for five years, you don't owe it back. So you have that equity in your property at the very beginning, and ultimately, it's forgiven. Jeremy: I see. So you can't turn around and sell the house three months later and essentially get that money back out. That's sort of how it's set up. It's forgiven over time. Kevin: They would prorate how much you owe them back at whatever point you might pay it off if it's early. Jeremy: All right. There it is, the down payment assistance program could get you up to $13,000 for the down payment on your house. If you think you're eligible, or potentially eligible, the first step to take is to go talk to a lender in your town and ask them about their down payment assistance programs for the type of loans that they offer. Look for them to talk about local programs in your city, state level programs, and federal programs, and ask them if you can combine those programs together, and then ask them exactly what steps you need to take to get that down payment assistance. What an awesome, awesome thing to have available to you if you're in an income bracket that makes sense to have those things. Thanks so much to Kevin Cade for sharing that information with us. If you want a comprehensive online course that walks you all the way through the home buying process, we have created it for you. There are checklists and videos and a private group just for members. You can find all of this at NewHomeBuyersGuide.net. If it isn't the best bit of home buying advice you've ever experienced, we will gladly refund your money, but really, when you see the price, even a third of the information we provide and the community that is behind that pay wall would be 100% worth it. Until the next time, happy home buying.

The show opens with Jeff talking about turning in the manuscript for new/revised edition of Hat Trick. The guys also talk about Captain Marvel. Will reviews Wanted-Bad Boyfriend by TA Moore and IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox. Jeff reviews Diversion by Eden Winters. Jason T. Gaffney and Kevin Held join Jeff & Will to discuss their new movie project, the romantic comedy/paranormal themed Out of Body. They recorded the audiobook of the novelization, which was written by Suzanne Brockmann. We also find out about their history-based podcast, The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason. Complete shownotes for episode 180 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Diversion by Eden Winters, narrated by Darcy Stark. Reviewed by Jeff Eden Winters Diversion series has been recommended to me for some time now and I finally took the leap. This first book was first published in 2012 but just came out in audio in October 2018 with narration from new to me voice artist Darcy Stark, who does a great job with both the suspense and romance. This enemies-to-lovers, workplace romantic suspense story centers on agents for the Southeastern Narcotics Bureau, Richmond “Lucky” Lucklighter and Bo Schollenberger. Lucky’s nearing the end of his forced stint on the job–forced as it was his way out of jail. Bo is new and eager, but is also at the job because of incidents in his past. They end up working together to bring down a ring of drug diversion and insurance fraud that involves a doctor, a drug manufacturer and a drug destruction company. I fell in love with gruff, no nonsense Lucky right away. He’s extremely good at his job, mostly because he used to be on the other side of the law. He exudes frustration and irritation at what he has to do and why and yet there’s a teddy bear in there too because he cares about getting the job done right. The friction that’s stirred up when Lucky’s saddled with mentoring Bo is sublime. Lucky’s looking to ride a desk during his last few weeks at the bureau, but his boss has other ideas. Bo’s very green in terms of what he has to do here–but he is ex-military so he’s no pushover either. He can take what Lucky dishes out and it pisses the senior agent off… and eventually Bo gives back as good as he gets. The friction gets explosive as Lucky battles with himself about the feelings he develops for Bo. The other thing the friction brings is a ton of humor. Lucky and Bo know how to push each other’s buttons–whether it’s blasting Billy Ray Cyrus, forcing healthy eating habits or being messy. It’s a wonderful odd couple pairing that morphs in a beautiful way as it becomes less about antagonizing and more about a sweet nudging of one another to just maybe move things to another level in their relationships. Both men have complicated backstories that make you feel for even more for them. Lucky ended up at the bureau after going to prison for the part he played in a large scale drug operation. He’d been in love with the guy behind that operation and when it all came crashing down Lucky was sure he wanted no part of loving anyone again. The pain Eden created for Lucky is devastating, which makes him all the more loveable when he’s able to come out of his shell. Bo did illegal things to help an ex and ended up taking illegal substances to the point that it’s very difficult for him to be around the drugs in a Pharmacy, which his job requires. There’s also abuse in his past and Lucky’s careful to keep Bo away from triggers as much as he can. The lengths he goes to keep Bo feeling safe are extremely sweet. Eden takes great care in how backstory is presented. Once the men get past their posturing and disdain for each other, they peel back they reveal themselves in a very natural way–as friends, coworkers and eventually lovers do. The good and bad are offered in equal measure and it’s perfect relationship development. The only thing I wanted in this story that I didn’t get was Bo’s point of view. I would’ve loved to know what was rattling around in his head. Not to take away from Lucky though as he was quite the good narrator and this one point doesn’t take away from my love of the book. The Diversion series is up to book seven as of January 2019–with the third book released in audio in February 2019–so I’ve got some catching up to do. I’m looking very forward to that. IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox & Molly Maddox. Reviewed by Will In Real Life combines the classic alpha billionaire character trope with the time-honored scenario of two characters who are combative in real life, but are secretly corresponding with one another and falling in love. Which is the long-winded way of saying it’s a similar set up as the classic movies Shop Around the Corner, You’ve Got Mail, In the Good Old Summertime, and the musical She Loves Me. The way that the characters write to each other has changed and evolved, but the premise remains the same. There’s also hints of enemies to lovers and opposites attract. This book is ripe with tropey goodness. So what’s it all about you might ask? Nice guy geek Conor is in New York to sell his mother’s bio-med technology to a ruthless CEO. The evening before his big presentation he decides to live a little and begins sexting with who he thinks is the sexy hotel bartender. It’s not. The text exchange he ends up having with a stranger, who he calls Trace, is amazing, and through several flirtatious and super-hot online conversations, they begin a fling. At the meeting the next morning, Wells Grange recognizes Conor thanks to the Dalek tie he is wearing. Conor is the hot and horny guy he sexted with the night before. His first inclination is to use this information as leverage in their business negotiations. But Wells quickly begins to fall for Conor, both the sexy online version and the awkward real-life version. As they work through the contracts for the sale, Wells continues his deception. They spend several days together and get to know one another, Conor unaware that Wells and Trace are the same person. We follow our heroes, almost in real time, as they fall in love while working together, going out to dinner, and taking carriage rides in Central Park. Once the business deal is finalized, Wells and Conor finally give in to their attraction and sleep with each other. Needless to say, it’s amazing and life altering for both of them. But, as is the case in stories like these, Conor finally puts two and two together before Wells can come clean about his sexting alter ego. Conor is humiliated and justifiably furious. He packs his bags and returns to North Carolina, with zero intention of ever speaking to Wells again. And rightly so. I’m going to be super upfront with you guys, there are certain aspects of the billionaire trope that I personally find problematic. I was on board with Wells and Conor for most of the story, but there were moments when I had a hard time dealing with certain aspects of Wells’ alphahole personality. In my view, if the ending of this book was going to be believable, Wells was going to have to move mountains and pull off one of the biggest mea culpas in romance history. It may not have been the biggest, but Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox crafted a finale that was truly heartfelt and genuinely appropriate for our two heroes. To make amends, Wells makes sure Conor’s sick mom is well taken care of and part of an experimental treatment program (her illness was the reason they needed the money from the business deal). Later, when Conor is unable to attend a Comic convention to unveil an important new development in his gaming business, Wells steps in, and personally gives a rousing presentation on Conor’s behalf. Wells proves he isn’t the billionaire alphahole he seems. Yea for true love and happily-ever-afters! Interview Transcript Jeff: Welcome back to the show, Jason and Kevin. Kevin: Thank you. Jason: Hello. Thank you. Kevin: Nice to be back. How you been? Jeff: Awesome. Jeff: Well, we had you on before, we were talking all about “Analysis Paralysis.” But you guys have a lot more going on besides that movie. You’re actually in pre-production right now on a film called “Out of Body.” Jason: Yeah. Jeff: Tell us what that one’s about. Jason: So “Out of Body” is basically a story where it’s a friends-to-lover rom-com. And basically, Malcolm, who’s Kevin’s character, has his body stolen from him and he kind of ends up as a spirit for a while. And he has to prove that he exists to me, Henry, and then when that finally happens, we do some magic, we fight some demons, we might get the body back, there’s definitely a happily ever after because it’s a rom-com. Kevin: You and your end happily-ever-afters. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: It’s important. Kevin: I know, I know. But I just want to the rom…just one time I want a rom-com to be…it’s mostly romantic and funny but everyone does die. Jason: Or they die hilariously. Kevin: It’s a rom-com drama. Jason: Death by rubber chicken. Jeff: And what was kind of the inspiration behind this movie this time? Jason: I don’t even know how this idea came in my head. But I was sleeping one day and I woke up and I was like, “Oh, that’d be really cool. A movie where someone’s dead but they wanted to be together but then they didn’t get to be together. And then they have to fight to get their body back and come back to life.” And so I wrote a kind of a similar but different kind of script. And we did a table read, and my mom was a part of the table read. And she was like, “I love the story you have here. Can I take it and can I change a lot of it and make it like super romance with the comedy?” And so this particular movie and book and audiobook is definitely heavier on the romance than the comedy, as opposed to “Analysis Paralysis.” But it’s, in my opinion, really, really good because the romance really makes…it’s gripping, it really gets you right in the heartstrings. And she basically saw what I was going for and was able to finesse it and really kind of mold it into what my kind of original vision was and then some. So I’m really psyched about it. It’s got a little bit of everything. Will: Yeah, not too long ago, I talked about the novelization of “Out of Body” here on the show. Jason, your mom, Suzanne Brockmann, of course, wrote that novelization, it was rather amusing. Like, I think in the forward she kind of does like a behind the scenes thing where she kind of tells that story where she says, “Jason, this is great. But do you mind if I take it and make it better?” Kevin: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. And here’s the thing, I am all about that. Like the filmmaking, it’s such a collaborative process and storytelling can be a really collaborative process. And I want to make good movies. And so I was really happy with the script that I had written, but when someone who’s as great of a writer as my mom is comes and says, “I want to have fun with this and let me just see what I can do with it,” I’m like, “Hell yeah. Take it. Have at it.” Yeah. Kevin: And the end result is really a script, a novel, and a script that really looks like if brilliant improviser and plot maker and gay comedy guy let his script be taken over by a bestselling romance novelist, what would happen, it would be this. You know. And so it’s really got great, great aspects of all of those elements. Will: Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and the audiobook as well. And I think it’s a really unique opportunity for people who are interested in “Out of Body,” the movie, to check out the audiobook and sort of, it’s essentially like a preview of what they’re going to be getting when the film comes out to the public. Can you give us a little bit of an idea about what it was like to kind of get into the material early before you even like were thinking about shooting by recording the audiobook? Kevin: I can tell you for my part, like, since I’m not one of the writers on this, which is, you know, traditional for me because I’m not usually the writer on a project that I’m acting in. But it’s completely unprecedented to have a novel that you get to perform about the thing before you even film the script. You know, so we get…like as an actor, it’s a freaking dream because I have…so you know how actors have to create subtext and everything, I just have to go to the book, you know, it’s like, “Don’t worry. I don’t have to make it.” It’s already been written down for me. So if I’m wondering, like, what’s happening for Malcolm now, what’s going on there? What’s the deep, deep part of it? It’s already written out for me now. So I would say, so the book is available. It’s on, it’s called “Out of Body.” It’s on Audible.com. And I would say, don’t deprive yourself of the opportunity to say the book was better. Jason: Yeah. And, you know, it was really cool to do the audiobook in general because it was our first audiobook for both of us as narrators. And when we were talking about doing it, we were talking with my mom about it and I was interested in the idea of recording it in a way where it was more like a radio show where we are our characters’ dialogue voices all the time, even if it’s in the other person’s point of view. Whoever’s point of view reads the descriptive stuff in the chapters. But if Malcolm’s speaking, even though I’m the narrator of that chapter, he still says his line, and he still says the lines of the other characters that he had been assigned and vice versa for me. And that was really kind of fun to do because, you know, how often do you get to do kind of a radio show acting gig? And it was also really fun for me as a director to get to do this with Kevin in advance, because, like, he now really knows the story and I know he knows the story. So I know that when he comes to set, that’s going to be really easy. And I got into the head of the other characters as well reading them, and that’ll help me be able to hold my other actors hands and kind of with them through their parts, and still allow them to bring what they want to bring to the role and have it blossom into how great it can be. Kevin: Yeah, and that’s like all separate and apart from the experience of actually recording the audiobook, which you might think was done him some and then me some on consecutive days or anything, but it was actually live together. So we actually recorded in a space that had two recording booths in it. We could both hear each other so that when I am narrating a section and it’s his line, I can hear him do it. And then I jump back in. So it was live editing, like, to take out any breaths or anything, or mess-ups or anything, so, but we got to…you know, it was amazing because I had him in my head the whole time doing it, too. So that was wonderful. It’s a great experience. Jeff: That’s amazing, especially how it connected to your even now pre-production process that you’re involved in because you’re getting ready to shoot in about a month from when we’re recording. In pre-production, give everybody kind of an idea of what that means. What’s going on as you get ready for your 12 days of shooting? Jason: So basically, what I just did was go through each of the scenes and break them up on a piece of paper so that now I have the page count number, like how many pages each scene is. Kevin: These are them. Jason: Oh, yeah. Little strip paper… Kevin: Each one of these is a scene. Jason: And basically, the page count, when it starts, who is in the scene, all that stuff. Because I need to…you know I don’t have every actor every day. I’m going to have Kevin every day because he’s one of the leads. But there’s other parts in it where they’re only going to film for one day…anywhere from one to three days. And so you have to plan their scenes on the same day. And this time, we’re going to actually be filming in two different locations because our neighbors next door sold their house to flippers and they’re doing construction and it’s been kind of never-ending. So we can’t film when there’s kind of heavy construction going on in this house. So we’re going to do a lot of stuff at my father in law’s house and then will come get the rest of it after they’re done here. And so I’ve been doing that with my dad and breaking it into those days while simultaneously working with my cinematographer Nacia to map out which shots are needed for each scene and what angles are we doing. So I put little maps on the other side of the table here. Basically, me drawing out the room layout and doing little circles with an M for Malcolm and an H or Henry, and the arrows pointing they go here and then they go here… Kevin: Oh my god. And this isn’t even talking about how to deal with SAG paperwork or any of the art direction that he’s doing, or any of the clearances that he’s getting for this or that kind of thing. Jason: We’ve got a, we’re going to have a… Kevin: He’s a bit of a doer. Jason: We got Andrew Christian giving us underwear… Kevin: Oh, yeah, we have Andrew Christian underwear over here. Jason: And I’m working with some other companies too. So Outfit is a gay like sports good wear, they’ve given me a patent to us for the movie. Kevin: He’s been stenciling t-shirts and… Jason: Hand design t-shirts specific to the characters. I’m going to be making him a specific shirt three times because he wears the same outfit the whole movie and so if anything spills on it, it’s got to be good and not spilled upon because he magically can’t get stains. And so it’s intense, there’s a lot going on. Like Pinterest is my best friend. I’ve been learning all about how to make DIY Halloween decorations. Because again, when you’re low budget, you can’t spend, you know, $3,000 on set design. You can spend like $200, and so you have to get a little crafty. You have to start thinking like, “Okay, I’ve got five pages of construction paper and a pair of scissors and some tape, how going to make this look like I spent a lot of money on it?” Kevin: He’s like MacGyver. So that’s his experience with pre-production, mine’s a little bit different because I’m not all the hyphenates. So I’m busy making no changes at all to my daily routine. Jeff: You do have a script to learn. Kevin: Sure, when I get it. Jason: It’s in the mail. Kevin: We’re at your house. Jeff: Oh my goodness. Jason: The creating part, like creating the artwork, it actually makes me feel calm. The paperwork stresses me out. And so Matt, thankfully, jumps on that grenade and deals with SAG-AFTRA and making sure that all the paperwork’s there and all the money is in the right place and all that stuff. So thank you, Matt. Jeff: Now, we should say Matt is your husband, so he’s in the production family. Jason: Yes. Kevin: Yeah. Will: So now that our listeners know how completely awesome and funny this project is going to be, can you give us a little bit of info about the Indiegogo campaign? Jason: We have an Indiegogo campaign, basically we crowd-funded “Out of Body” on Kickstarter first, a successful crowdfunding campaign last year. and Indiegogo came to us and said, “We’d like to do an in-demand campaign for you.” So we have an open-ended campaign on Indiegogo right now, where you can help sponsor the film help and get some fabulous rewards, such as DVDs of “Out of Body” when it finally is all finished, you can get DVDs of “Analysis Paralysis,” our last feature film. Kevin: I’m going to get these down from the thingy here. Jason: So you can show people. Kevin: You can actually, because now we’re in the second feature film that stars the two of us. Like we got other projects that I have to do with like if you’re your fans of “Analysis Paralysis,” or perhaps the audiobook of “Out of Body,” you can get these copies, you can get copies of all that stuff. And so as we are on the way to becoming things of all media. Jason: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so if you go to indiegogo.com and you go, indiegogo.com/projects/out-of-body-a-feature-length-lgbtq-rom-com-movie/, it’s a very long title. Kevin: Really, why don’t you go to indiegogo.com and search “Out of Body.” Yes. Jeff: Or just come to our show notes, it’ll be much easier. Will: Yes, do that. Kevin: Exactly. Go to “Big Gay Podcast” website and it’s going to be in the show notes. Jason: Another place you can find out information about “Out of Body” in the future and any sort of campaigns we’re having, etc., is if you go to tinyletter.com/mypethippo and join our newsletter, you’ll be able to find out things about “Analysis Paralysis” or “Out of Body,” or our podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason,” all sorts of fun stuff. And yeah, so and basically indie film, it’s low budget. So every dollar really does make a difference. Like if we get enough money to buy a better meal for the cast and crew, everybody’s spirits raised, it gets raised up a little higher, you know, or we can afford an extra day of filming, or we can afford…it really does matter. So thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. And thank you to everyone who comes and supports us after this. Kevin: Yes, indeed. Jeff: Now, Kevin had this wonderful term about you guys, you know, essentially taking over media. You mentioned the podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason.” It’s a comedy podcast about history. How did this idea spark? Because this just adds to you, I imagine, having to research these historical things. Kevin: Now, Jason does all the research for this, you know, and that’s huge. Like, because basically, he doesn’t have enough to do. But the impetus for the podcast, which is “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason” is, you know, there’s so much bad news all the time. And my mom taught me how to look on the bright side of stuff, you know. If I got one thing from my mom, it was to…I would always complain about this or that and she would constantly remind me of there’s something good here, you know, and you have to find that. And so that’s really the gem of this, it’s really the heart of that show is that, especially when you look around at the news right now, there’s so much bad stuff that is going on. But you have to also recognize that bad stuff creates the opposite reaction. And so who is making the good out of that? You know, who is looking at that and reacting to it in a way of love, or in a way of furthering acceptance, or you know, who’s looking at the transgender ban, for example, that was finally instituted by the Supreme Court? And who is saying, you know, I want to reach out and tell my trans brothers and sisters that you are people and you are valuable and your service is useful and we love you? You know, so who’s doing that? You know, and so that’s what the podcast really kind of focuses on. We do wallow in some tragedy on the podcast because every week we take a historical episode of some varying degree of tragic-ness and talk about it. But then we also, every episode, find out what good that led to. Jason: And it kind of came about a long time ago after “Analysis Paralysis,” like Kevin mentioned in the last episode, we talked a little bit about how we met on a student film and basically got along really well, really quickly, and then we started hanging out together with our husbands and going on double dates, and so it kind of formed this bond. And after “Analysis Paralysis,” which was so much fun, it was 10 days of basically seeing Kevin and laughing and having a good time, I was like, “I don’t want to wait a year-and-a-half for the next project. I want to do something now with you.” Kevin: The experience of just chatting about a topic on a set or something was so much fun and we thought, “We should bottle this.” And then we thought, “You can.” There’s a method for this that’s called a podcast, and that’s what started. Yeah, you know, so now I get to come over here every damn week. Jason: Yeah, come to the Valley. You’re welcome. Kevin: Yeah, when I moved to Westwood I was hoping that my second bedroom would be a good place to record. But it’s not, it’s not good. Too much noise there. The valley’s a lot of things, but it is quiet. Jason: It is quiet. Unless they’re doing construction next door. Kevin: Right. Jeff: You could just turn that second bedroom into a soundproof area. Kevin: No, actually, currently, we didn’t have any…we moved from a house that had a lot of storage into a house that had another bedroom, but no storage. So that second bedroom has just become basically the id of our house. You know, everything’s like ahhhhh, you know? Jason: It’s like in “Harry Potter,” what’s that closet? Kevin: The room of requirements? Jason: Yes. Kevin: It’s the room of please don’t go in there actually. Will: Now, guys, I’m curious. How do you choose which historical events to feature and how much research goes into each episode? Kevin: That’s 100% question for Jason because though I feel that the podcast is a 50/50 pursuit, because Jason does all of the research for the topics that we do, and I don’t ever know what we’re going to talk about until I get here, but then I do all the web mastering and editing and I put up the shownotes and I do all of that stuff. So I feel like we end up spending around the same amount of time on things. Jason: Yeah. So basically, generally about a day of work I kind of surf the web, I find a topic that…like I kind of search, you know, the rabbit hole as to like what kind of weird historical thing is this? And I’ll like Google really weird stuff so my search history… Kevin: Yeah, they’re coming for you. Jason: …completely messed at this point. But like, you know, I’ll look up like “wild strikes historical funny” to see what I get from it. But honestly, there’s been a ton of them I’ve gotten through recommendations of friends and family and listeners of the podcast, and we really encourage listeners to throw ideas at us because there’s some really obscure events in history that I don’t know about that I would love to know about and I could easily find it if I knew to search for it. And so if anyone out there listening has weird events, definitely tweet me or email me. Kevin: You can find him @jasontgaffney on Twitter, and tell him and I don’t want to know about it. Jeff: That’s right. Kevin has to stay in the dark. Kevin: Right. Jason: So what I look for also, I try to look for topics where there’s a lot of tragedy, but you can still make fun of it. Like, if it’s a natural disaster, I try to find one where people made bad decisions with the natural disaster, not that it’s just, like, everyone got screwed and they tried to do the right thing, but they still got screwed because you can’t really make fun of those people. That’s just sad. Kevin: And mean. And it’s really not. I mean, I know we’re talking about a lot of tragedy, and that’s kind of what we focus on. But it’s not a cruel show. It’s not a Schadenfreude, really, because the ultimate goal is to find out what the hopeful aspect of it, who turned that situation into something good, you know. Jason: And you’d be surprised, like, we generally can find it. I don’t think we found one yet where there’s really nothing, no bright side to it. Kevin: No. Because the arc of history is long and you never know what the end result of a pebble, you know, when a pebble goes into a puddle, you don’t know how farther in they’re going to go, you know, and so, like, we talked about that event but that could lead to something incredible later, you know. Jeff: For you, Kevin, since you come in cold to these, what’s been of the episode so far that you’re like, “What? What did I just hear?” Kevin: Oh, my God. Well, the “Empire” panic, for example, has been insane. Like, I have a feeling when I post the episodes, I have a feeling like I hope…My mom and I listened to the Christmas episode over Christmas. And at the end of it, she said, “That was funny and I learned some stuff.” So that’s what…it was like I was, “Oh, good. There we go.” That’s what I would like people to have from it. Is like, “Oh, I enjoyed that, you know, conversation. That was fun and stuff.” But also, “God, who knew?” Yeah, that’s amazing. Because he’s pretty good at this, every episode there’s gonna be some point where I’m like, “Are you kidding? Human beings did this,” you know? It’s always, “Yes, they did,” good Lord. Jason: It’s also it’s gotten way more fun to do the research than it initially was because I was really nervous the first couple episodes to like, “Oh, my God, is this going to be funny? How can I make this funny?” And I was trying a little like…we actually have a couple of episodes that just never aired because I was trying too hard as opposed to just seeing that, yeah, that was absurd. I don’t need to say anything except what they said. And now that I’ve kind of mastered that to a degree. I mean, I’ll keep getting better as time goes on. But now I can really see like as I’m reading stuff, I’ll be like, “Oh, I know that Kevin’s gonna hear that and go, ‘Stop it.'” And then he’s gonna call it out, call the absurdity of it. I don’t need to do anything except, say, like, you know, “And then she picked up the knife and stabbed her own foot.” And it’s like, “Why?” Kevin: Spoiler alert. Jeff: Did you have a knack for history before this, Jason? Or did this just kind of happen? Jason: So I’ve always loved history. I always love the idea of history. When I was actually a little kid, I used to play with blocks a lot. And it’s probably why I like being a producer and a storyteller. I used to have like this giant castle and a giant village and an army of bad guys and I acted out this soap opera for years with the royal family and all that. And I was fascinated with the Romanovs and stuff so I kind of like did a little spoof on them. And so I kind of created like my own worlds, and history and stuff. And so when I can find sites that tell historical stories like a story, which is what history should be told as because it essentially is our story, it’s really fun. It’s really exciting to read it and be like, “No, oh, my goodness, that person’s totally the villain.” And then you read a couple more paragraphs, and you’re like, “Oh, no, they’re misguided. They have a heart of gold. They didn’t know.” And then five pages later, you’re like, “No, they’re just a dick.” And it’s exciting, it’s riveting, it gets you on the of the edge of your seat constantly with how people just constantly mess up. And then occasionally, you have a hero who’s just like, actually a good person, you’re like, “What’s the catch?” So, yeah, you know, history is really fun, especially when it’s told with a fun storytelling lens because… Kevin: And I think that’s like the thrust of the podcast is also it’s about the topic, sure, but it’s also just about how Jason and I interact with each other. And we just have such a fun friendship. And I don’t mean that it’s fun from the inside. I hope it is, but it’s fun from the inside of it. So I have such a good time with him that whatever we’re talking about is going to be fun for me. Jeff: That’s awesome. So besides “Out of Body” and more podcast episodes, what else is coming up for you both? Kevin: I may never work again. Who knows? Jason: We’ve actually started writing the sequel to “Analysis Paralysis” with the hope of filming it at the end of the year, with the additional hope of trying to film it in Palm Springs. Kevin: First time hearing of that. Really? Jeff: Breaking news. Kevin: I love Palm Springs. Jason: We’re gonna do what we can to make it work. And it would require assistance from the Palm Springs community, sure, help house us and give us locations and stuff. Kevin: It’s gonna be all on the gondola. Only there. Jason: What gondola? Kevin: The gondola up to the mountain thing. Jason: Oh, yeah, that gondola. Kevin: The whole thing is set on the gondola. Jason: I was thinking like the gondola with a little stick… Kevin: Yeah, the canals in Palm Springs. Jason: But another thing that I’m actually working on is my dad and I wrote a couple of novellas that you can get on Amazon. Kevin: What are they called? Jeff: “California Comedy Series.” Jason: The “California Comedy Series.” Yes. And I wrote a version of “Fixing Frank” with the hopes to get that kind of ball rolling. And it’s definitely a film that requires a bigger budget than what we have right now. But I’m starting to get those wheels in motion for you know, movie four, five, six sometime in the near future. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I’m working on. Kevin: We keep cranking them out. If people will keep putting them on screens and things, we’ll keep making them. Jason: The goal is to make people laugh. I feel like that’s why I was put on Earth and I feel like that’s why you were put on Earth. Kevin: Well, yeah. I know am laughing whenever I see you so that’s probably true. Jeff: Do we get new “California Comedy” anytime soon? Jason: I have been talking about that with my dad, we actually have a couple that are in the works, it’s just trying to figure out when we have a good time to sit down and edit it. I think after “Out of Body,” I’ll be able to take a look back at one of them that we wrote a while ago and kind of tweak it because there were a couple of things that just never felt right. And so it’s just figuring out how to fix those kinds of plot holes. And then hopefully that’ll be on the market before the end of 2019. Jeff: Excellent. And Kevin, what about you, anything you want to throw out for people to keep an eye out for? Kevin: Super excited about the podcast, actually. You know, going into production on “Out of Body” is really, really exciting. I don’t have a lot of acting projects coming up after that, that I can think of right now. But that’s kind of the nature of acting projects. Jeff: Sure. Kevin: You know, and so the podcast is where you can find us weekly up until the end…and actually, we make announcements there about projects that do come up for us, you know, in the interim. So, you know, to be a loyal listener to the show would be the best way to find out about what’s new with us. You know. Jason: Oh, and I almost forgot. We’re going to try in some way whether it’s self-published or with some other company helping us, the goal is to turn the “California Comedy Series” into audiobooks as well, similar to “Out of Body.” Jeff: Oh, fantastic. So both of you voicing? Jason: Yeah, for two of them. One of them, the plan is to have my good friend David Singletary come in as the role of Mike since that role is African American. And my friend David Singletary is African American and I’m all about… Kevin: Kevin Held is very much not. Jason: I’m all about own voices reading parts and stuff like that. And he’s great. You’re going to love him. Kevin: He is great. I’m a little jealous, but I’m okay. Jeff: Well, guys, thank you so much for telling us about “Out of Body” and the podcast. We wish you much success with those. Jason: Well, thank you. Kevin: Well, much success with your own podcast, gentlemen. Jason: Thank you, yes.  

One of the mistakes people often make when starting their own e-commerce business is they try to make the business an extension of themselves. They don't build out enough within that extension and therefore don't build a real business. A real business that is going to be attractive to buyers. Some also make attempts to reject Amazon, feeling they can achieve success with Shopify, Walmart, and other E-commerce channels. Today we are talking with a true Amazon veteran and success story, getting to the truth behind building real e-commerce success, working to build a real and viable business, and why it pays to go to China. Kevin King is an e-commerce entrepreneur's advisement expert. He teaches to and works with seven to eight-figure companies and speaks at e-conferences all over the world – attending nearly twenty-six events in at least 10 countries in 2018 alone! He runs his own e-commerce site selling his Amazon products, and has developed and guided hundreds of products from inception to market. He's been in the Amazon Private Label space since 2015. He's here talking about the Amazon opportunity bubble and how he doesn't see it popping anytime soon. Episode Highlights: The skyrocket of the Amazon business model and how that model has changed. Kevin shares his tips for doing business right from the start and increasing chances for success. The different ways to approach the Amazon model. Kevin gives us a definition of Amazon Private Label. The number one crucial skill you need to succeed on Amazon. What you really need financially to start a real business. How to find out where the demand is on Amazon. Why being on top of your inventory is vital to your success and how often you should turn your inventory each year. What it really means to build a brand and if brands mean anything to potential buyers. Why Amazon is a great place to launch a product but not to build a brand. Why product choice is the backbone to business success. What to look at when choosing a product to sell. Selling cheap easy turnover items versus high ticket items. The most important thing to do to improve traffic on Amazon. Unless it garners at least 20% of your revenue, multichannel sales don't increase your chances of finding a buyer. The international factor and branching out to other marketplaces. Kevin's golden rules for moving a product. How many products are the right amount to have in your portfolio? Where the money is really made in the Amazon space and the importance of how and where to source products. Transcription: Mark: Okay Joe I want to start this off with a question for you. Back when you owned Puristat how long did it take before you realized this is going to be able to grow into something and how long did it take before you turn it into kind of like a real business that could be scaled? Joe: That's a great question. I wish I had a really good prepared answer for it. Mark: I got you completely unguarded with that. Joe: Yeah. I'm one of those guys that built a business without knowing I could actually sell it. And as you and a lot of folks that know my history I started out on doing radio and direct response and did a TV infomercial and then eventually took it 100% online. But early on in my entrepreneurial career, I did have a sit down with a good friend … a family friend that slapped me upside the head in terms of accounting and I did have my ducks in a row in that sense. And I always built what was a real business so that if I got hit by a bus one of my head people could take over, my wife could take over things of that nature. But it never actually occurred to me until I was emotionally tired that I could sell the business. And then I reached out to a guy named Mark Daoust back in … gosh, 2010 right? Mark: Way too long ago. I think one of the things … one of the problems I see and I've seen over the past 11 years with entrepreneurs is we make the business an extension of ourselves; an extension of our personality. And because of that sometimes we don't really build the business in a way that can be sold and we don't have intentionality of building something outside of ourselves. And I know you talked to Kevin King who had a lot of suggestions and tips as to how somebody should be building their business for that expansion and again for lack of a better term a real business. Joe: Kevin used the term real business probably 10 times in the first five minutes and he is such an honest straightforward tell it like it is kind of guy that he says you got to build a real business. Grow up build a real business. Don't be a … build a real business. And he just says it in a way that you just have to go okay he's right, I need to stop messing around, grow up, and build a real business that is going to be really attractive to buyers when I'm ready to sell. Kevin is one of the few guys that is out there teaching, helping, coaching entrepreneurs build ecommerce businesses with a focus on an eventual exit. He's got a four year plan in terms of … you know step 1, 2, 3, 4 in terms of year 1, 2, 3, 4 with an exit in mind not that you're going to exit but that you're in a position to exit in 48 months. Part of that is giving it enough time to mature and grow and gain value. And he's a believer as many folks in his position are that a majority of the revenue that an entrepreneur gets to put in their bank account comes upon an exit and that's a simple matter of math. We hear Scott Deetz talk about that a lot and he's an advocate of that as well. But I tell you there are … the gurus are a dime a dozen and Kevin has been around a long time. He walks the walk, he talks the talk, he's a guest podcast on lots of podcasts, AM PM Podcast co-host, and helps out a lot with Helium10. And now he is so sought after. He's being asked to go and present and speak around the country … around the world and he's being paid to do it. You and I have to … we have to say can we sponsor and by the way can we speak and we pay them to let us up on stage these people are actually paying Kevin to get up there and talk because the wisdom that he shares is so valuable. Mark: That's fantastic. I want to get to this, hear what he has to say. I was at a conference a few months ago and there's a speaker who said … and I'm going to keep this PG even though he wasn't PG but he said if you want to have a real business you have to do real business stuff. And it's one of those truisms that is just kind of basic but good to hear once in a while. So I'm interested to hear what Kevin has to say about it and for those listening, I think it would be a good idea to listen to some of the specifics that he gives here and just measure up against what you're doing right now. Are you doing these things? Have you been doing real business stuff within your business to actually build something that's real and external? Joe: Perfect let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks it's Joe Valley with the Quiet Light Podcast and I have an amazing guest today. His name is Kevin King. Kevin, how are you today? Kevin: I'm doing good Joe. How are you doing? Joe: I'm good man. You're kind of a legend in this industry now. You're traveling all over the world speaking at events, getting paid to speak at events, helping 6, 7, 8 figure entrepreneurs build their Amazon businesses. That's kind of the intro, why don't you tell us who you are and what you're all about so the people will understand it directly from you? Kevin: Sure no problem. Yeah, I've been doing ecommerce since the 1990. So I go back about 20, 25 years or so since the days before there was even a Google. I've been selling ecommerce to my own websites. I started selling on Amazon on around the year 2000 or so and then I've been doing the FBA model which most people are familiar with now since 2015. I originally started out doing wholesaling, some arbitrage, and some other stuff on Amazon and still do that through another business. And then I'm also involved in a couple of different training things. So I teach advanced level sellers, 6, 7, 8 figure sellers in the Illuminati Mastermind which I'm mostly training. Like a 3 hour training [inaudible 00:05:54.2] these tactics and techniques for sellers and then we do a live event once a year. It's a pretty high level live event and then also I have a course called the Freedom Ticket which trains new people on how to sell on Amazon as well as how to have a 7 figure Amazon Business that I do myself and then I'm partners with a couple of other people and a couple of other Amazon businesses. And then I … like you said I speak at a lot of events all over the world for Amazon sellers and ecommerce. Joe: And why don't you tell us how many you went to so far this year? This is being recorded in late 2018. Kevin: Yeah in 2018 I'm at 26 events so far this year. Joe: And say how many different countries. Kevin: Oh man I haven't added that up. The number of countries would probably be at least 10. Joe: At least 10. Kevin: So I would actually … it's a … China, Hong Kong, let's see … several United States including Hawaii and it's not another country but Hawaii and then several and Germany, so Germany, London, Greece, Romania, Ukraine, man all over … all over the place. Joe: That's incredible. And you're attending and speaking at these as well right? Kevin: That's correct yeah. Some of them I'm just an attendee but over half of them, I'm actually speaking at. Joe: All right well let's help the people that are listening, those that have Amazon businesses and those that don't, those that want to get started. A lot of folks like you and me started off with our own websites and Google AdWords and content development and eventually morphed over to Amazon. I didn't, I sold my business before you were selling in Amazon but before I realized that Amazon was a tool I could sell on. I sold in 2010. I look back and think man I wish I knew a Kevin King back then. Kevin: Yeah the Amazon space is one of those that … it had a hot wave around 2012 or so. The guys over at Amazing.com kind of set this off where they turned it into a business model and started instead of getting rich in real estate let's get rich in selling on Amazon. And so they started doing courses and it took off and since then there's probably about 4 or 500 other people that came out with different courses. And to be frank, most of them suck. The guys at Amazing do a pretty good job and there's three or four others. I'd like to think that mine is one of the better ones but most of them are people that either isn't selling on Amazon or tried it and failed or they're just not very good. So you have to be very very careful out there. It's become a big industry that is … a lot of people realize they can make more money selling the show than they can selling the gold or whatever or that saying is you know. It's teaching people how to do it rather than doing it. But the opportunity … so as a result of that a lot of people say hey is this selling on Amazon saturated? Is it too late? Did I miss the boat? I say absolutely not. I think it's better than ever right now. The difference is it's no longer an easy game where when 2, 3, 4 years ago it's pretty easy to just go to Alibaba.com find a product slap your name and logo on it and sell it on Amazon and those days are pretty much gone. It's a real business now. So if you approach this as a real business and not a get rich quick scheme and not listen to a lot of these course guys that are saying you can quit your job tomorrow and sit on the beach drink margaritas and just check the app and watch the sales come in. But treat it like a real business and keep your job. Don't quit your job maybe for a year as long as you got money … unless you have a lot of money in the bank saved up that you can live on. But if you treat this like a real business that you can reinvest it there's no better business out there that has a better return right now. And Joe you know this, you guys broker a bunch of businesses so you see these numbers and you see the guys that do it wrong and the guys that do it right. And like I always say if you take $5,000 and you put that into the best mutual fund on Wall Street in about 3 years you'll have about 7500 bucks or so roughly on average. If you put $5,000 on an Amazon business and do it right that $5,000 in 3 years can pretty easily turn into about $52,000. So the ROI is tremendous but you got to do it right, you got to treat it like a business. And I always tell people if you're going to start in this business the thing that you need to do is … I say it's like a 4 year plan. Year one you're basically learning and you're earning. Year two … whether that's you taking a course from someone that you paid, you're watching some YouTube videos or whatever you may be doing, you have to be careful though if you're watching YouTube videos because some of that stuff is out of date or incorrect. So you're learning and you're earning. In the 2nd year, you're optimizing. So maybe you're adding additional products and additional variations. The 3rd year you're preparing to sell. You're getting all your ducks in a row. You're getting all your financials correct. Hopefully, you've been doing this all along but you're really optimizing your financials and in the 4th year you sell. The best opportunity in this business is not running the business; it's in selling the business. Because when you sell an Amazon business typically that's where you're going to take in over half of your profits. Sometimes as much as 70 or 80% of what you're going to walk away with from running the business. People would say why the heck would you sell a business if this is such a great opportunity Kevin why the heck would you even sell it? And I say well it's leverage. I mean there's no better … that's how you get ahead. You know in real estate that's how you get ahead and wherever it is leveraged. Even if you're making $200,000 a year off this business if you can walk away in one year with a million bucks let's say in your pocket, you can just turn around, pay off some bills, take a nice vacation, buy the wife a new car, whatever you want to do and then start over again. And I know a lot of people that are on their 3rd Amazon based business right now. I know a guy that sold his first one in a year for half a million. He sold his 2nd one for 7.5 million. Now it's the third one. I know another couple, a really nice husband and wife team that just recently sold one for 4 million, got a multiple of almost 4.2 and their next goal is 2021 to sell it for 10 … the next one for 10 million. So it's a great way to do that. Joe: [inaudible 00:11:38.6] them the skill set. You know the folks that I talk to they build these and then we sell them for them. Once they've got that skill set they can go back to the well. They can go back to the Amazon well and build another brand because they understand it. But let's throw some chips out there. You said you could turn 5,000 into 50 in 4 years. We've seen 5,000 turned into several million in 4 years. How much would you recommend to the newbies that are out there and what I want to do here is give some tips from you the expert. I get so much misinformation out there. I want you to talk about a few tips that newer folks should do so that it increases their success level. And then to those folks that are out there doing it now some of the things that you may be able to call from your travels and your experience that are new that are completely different than they were maybe even just 12 months ago. But how much money do you think somebody at a minimum should start off with and should they be focused on branding, wholesaling, arbitrage … what is your opinion on what they should do to get started and increase their chances of success so that they can have that big exit down the road? Kevin: Well I can say this 11 different ways to skin the Amazon cat. You can make money off affiliate market by doing wholesale, by doing retail, arbitrage, online arbitrage and there are several other ways. The best way, in my opinion, is private label. It has the most opportunity and the best margin. So if you're looking to maximize your return you should really look at the private label side. Joe: Let's define that if you would please? Kevin: Sure. Joe: Just for the new ones starting off. Kevin: The private label is where you're actually basically creating a brand … attempting to create a brand or you're actually taking products that already exist, maybe modifying them slightly and putting your name on it. It's kind of like if you go to the supermarket and you look at that ketchup, there's Heinz ketchup which everybody knows that do all the advertising and right next to it is the local store brand, Safeway, Kroger, whatever it may be brand of ketchup which often comes off the same factory. And it's often the exact same materials they just has a different name on it usually at a slightly lower price. Joe: Right. Kevin: So that's private label. So the idea behind the private label is to go onto Amazon use a lot of these tools, these 3rd party software tools, find the opportunities, and that could be either based on keywords or it could be based on complaints and customer reviews and you can fix the problem and you can come in and compete. The Amazon business itself is the number one most crucial skill you need to have is mass. This business is all about numbers and so if you're not a numbers person you need someone on your team that is a numbers person. It's not something where you get emotional and hey I built a better mousetrap or I've made a new invention. I mean there are opportunities there if you have a new invention or you have a new idea but there has to be the demand. And the beauty about Amazon and selling on Amazon is it's a huge laboratory. I mean with 550 million or so products on there most of them with a review someone with thousands of reviews. It's a great laboratory. I mean companies 10, 15 years ago used to have to do focused group marketing and all kinds of expensive research just to get this kind of feedback and it's publicly freely available right now to anybody that wants it. So you can go in there and if you know how to mine this data you can find major opportunities. And so you want to look … it's all about math. So back on how much should you start with you know that depends. I recommend you have at least 5 to $10,000. I mean you hear stories of people start with 100 bucks or 500 bucks but usually they may have started with 100 bucks but what they don't tell you is that a week later they borrowed 50,000 from their rich uncle. They have these rags to riches story where they get terms from their supplier, there's something else to it. You can't start with it, I mean you could start arbitrage with a 100 bucks if you're going to grow a real business you need money. You can start a business with a thousand or a hundred … hundred to a thousand but it's going to be a really slow build. So the more you have the faster you can go. So what I always say is if you going to start this business how much do you need? You need 2 ½ times your initial inventory investment. So if your first round of products is going to cost you let's say $4,000 to have made. So you're buying 1,000 units of something. That means you can basically spend about $4 per unit landed cost. Landed cost means the cost to manufacture the item whether that's in the United States or in China plus the cost to ship it and if you're importing it all the taxes and shipping cost that's basically landed in the Amazon warehouse. So you need 2 ½ times that. That means you need about $10,000 to start the business. If you don't have $10,000 you need to find a different type of product to sell. If you only have 5,000 good, do the math and you have to find some things you can buy for about $2,000; your initial inventory. Joe: So if you're buying 1000 pieces at 4,000 bucks what's the other 6,000 for? Kevin: The other 6,000 is because in this business it's a very cash intensive business. So if you're successful you're most likely going to have to be buying your 2nd round of inventory before you sold your 1st and probably before you've even paid for your 1st in full. So you're going to need … the worst thing you can do on Amazon is to run out of stocks. If you run out of stocks on Amazon for more than a few days you're basically starting over. That's the death. Now 90% of people that start selling on Amazon fail or they take a course either they don't launch or they fail because they don't do the math right. They don't plan it properly. They don't pick products that are within their budget that they can maintain, that they can sustain. And in the other … you know in this case of the 4,000 so you might need another 4,000 to place your 2nd order and then the other 2,000 is for advertising cost. You might need some software, some other miscellaneous things. That's the bare minimum. In my opinion, it's better to have a better cushion than that but that would be the bare minimum. And then it's all about math. It's all about looking at keyword demand. It's not trying to invent something new, that's kick starter or that's … you know there are other business models for if you have something that's brand new that you want to do. But the best opportunity is to look at the demand on Amazon. Use these keyword tools. See what people are searching for, what they're buying, what they're complaining about, and go in and either make a slightly different product of that or fix the problem that people are complaining about and then come out with something. And so that that's why I say it's all math. It's all about the financial side which most people are not good at and the forecasting and it's all about the keyword and the demand side. And there are some great tools out there … 3rd party tools that have come a long way in the last 3 years that can really help you with it. But most people that even are paying for these tools … you know they're paying 100 bucks for a tool like Helium 10 for example that's one of the better tools out there. A lot of people don't even know how to use the tools. It's kind of like they have a nice race car with all these gizmos and buttons and all these kinds of things that they can do to really race down the track at 200 miles per hour but they're just putting along at 40 miles an hour. So master these tools and learn these tools and you can do really well. Joe: Okay and that's the 1st year really the mastery of those types of tools and things of that nature. Kevin: Correct. Joe: Got you and we say a lot of the same things. I put myself on mute because I'm struggling because we're doing … one of the things I'm always saying is that and I'm actually doing a presentation next week and its, if you want to increase the value of your business in the year before you sell, don't run out of inventory. You know that it's going to kill maybe certain things in terms of momentum on Amazon. I know that when you run out of inventory it reduces your revenue and your profit and that times your multiple is going to be the loss on your business value. I just said a lot. It probably doesn't make sense to most but just don't run out of inventory. Do what you can; beg, borrow, steal, hillock, line of credit, credit cards, whatever it takes if you've got a good solid business. As far as the brand sell or the private label do you recommend and do you prefer seeing people picking a category, let's say they're going to … okay, I'm going to invent a new … I'm not going to invent, I'm going to build a better mousetrap and it's a swimming pool cover and then all of the additional products evolve around swimming pools or do you think you find that great product there and then you do this search for the next great product and it may not be related at all? Kevin: I think there are two different ways to do that. I mean one is if building a brand is difficult, building a brand it's not just sticking your name and your label on something. A lot of people think that's a brand. They think that if I create a logo and stick my name on my pool cover I, therefore, have a brand and I have a bunch of pool and that's not true. Brand is an identity. It's something that people relate to. It's like … you know think of Apple, people are lining up to get the new iPhone. It's a certain cool you know Apple came out with that thing differently you know that it's almost like a … it's hard to build a brand and I don't think Amazon is the place to build a brand in my opinion. I think Amazon is a great launching … if building a brand is your strategy that's awesome and Amazon can be a great place to launch because the marketplace is already there. The view about Amazon is they already have a huge audience and just all these cool tools that you can use to figure out how to reach them. If you go out and you build your own Shopify site or your own ecommerce store you've got to figure out how they bring the traffic there. You've got to start doing Facebook ads, email list, PR, whatever it may be to bring the traffic there versus on Amazon you don't have to do that it's already coming. You'll only use outside traffic … if you have to use outside traffic to drive sales on Amazon you're doing something wrong. In my opinion, the only time you should use outside traffic to drive sales on Amazon is when you're doing a launch. If you're launching a new product and you need it to kind of influence the algorithm, that makes perfect sense and you should do that. But if you're heavily weighted on driving outside traffic from Facebook and you're sending it to Amazon just to make sales on Amazon then you shouldn't be doing it. You should have sent that to your own store because when you send someone from Facebook to Amazon they're not … they don't become your customer. They're not identifying with your brand, they're identifying with the Amazon brand. They're buying because it's Amazon, they get it in a day or two. They trust Amazon. They know that it's easy to return blah blah blah. In most cases, they don't really care about your brand. So if you're trying to build a brand you need to drive it to your own store. But using Amazon as a launch pad because it has a built in traffic and then you could use the data you get from Amazon you can refine your product get it fixed get that good feedback and then take that data from Amazon even as a 3rd party seller you can create what's called [inaudible 00:21:36.9] and all kinds of stuff on Facebook and then go out and build a brand that would identify more with you. And I think the best opportunity to build brands using Amazon is on consumables … on people … maybe it's dog treats or supplements or something like that where people will come in over and over and over. But if you're selling pool covers … building a brand is difficult so what I tell people is still trying to really build a brand initially that may come and evolve into that is more build … go after an avatar. So rather than just trying to be the guy doing all the pool supplies, to give yourself the best opportunity on Amazon so you're not stuck in a niche. I mean if you go after the pool supplies and you're doing pool covers and pool chemicals and pool everything else you're kind of stuck there. You're like okay what else can I find in a pool category versus if you go after an avatar and you pick a person … let's say it's a runner. I'm going to go after an athlete, people who love to run outdoors, then you can actually go across multiple categories and you can do something like something in electronics category that's a fitness tracker or a band to hold your iPhone on your arm or whatever and you could do socks and you could do water bottles. You can get across over all these different categories and you open yourself up to more opportunity. Or you can just … you know some people they don't care; it's just the shotgun approach. It's like I just find opportunities I don't care it's just cash flow. Typically if you have a brand it depends on the buyer. Some buyers actually really value that and they'll pay a higher multiple for that if you're planning on selling. Others don't care they just want the cash flow. So it depends and so when you're 1st starting you might just … I don't know that you need to think about that because it's going to evolve. Most people their 1st or 2nd product doesn't succeed, it's more of a learn … some people get lucky and it does but you can ask most big sellers that are doing 7, 8, 9 figures a year and they'll say yeah my 1st one it just I don't sell it anymore it didn't work. So I would get too stuck at that in the beginning. I would just keep going and then it's going to come to you. You're going to start seeing the opportunities and you'll be able to drive off. Joe: I got you, great information. It totally makes sense, the avatar and being able to say okay I'll do a running … people that are running. And it could be men, women, it could be kids. Again the products breath and depth is really really broad and deep as opposed to limiting to grilling products or swimming pool products. Kevin: Not to say you can't do that, I mean you can do that but I think the opportunity is better if you go towards an avatar rather than just a niche. Joe: Yup, got it. I love it. Let's talk about for those that are listening to this podcast Kevin obviously they can tell you know what you're talking about. They probably already know your name and have seen your presentations. What things are you doing and are your 7 and 8 figure friends doing that is new and different and must be done to help take things to the next level? What kind of tidbits can you share there? Kevin: Well the number one thing is to me the thing I've learned in this business is it's not about profit; it's about ROI if you're trying to grow a business. When I 1st started I was looking at products that would have nice profit margins. You hear people sometimes on Facebook say I've got 40, 50, 60% profit margins and those cases do exist rarely but I used to say bullshit on most of those people. The average in a private label business is between about 20 and 30% if you're doing things right. Joe: Let's call that seller's discretionary earnings for everybody listening that's … it's you run a net profit and you run a profit loss in Quick Books you get net profit on the bottom then we're going to add back those owner benefits like your salary like your meals and entertainment like your travel and things that nature that are not business related. So your net income plus your add backs equals your seller's discretionary earnings that's what we're talking about. Kevin: Now once you do your add backs that could go a little bit higher. I'm talking about just on the books you know when you when you are factoring it all your cost is about 20 to 30% on private label. On wholesale, it's closer to the 10 to 15% range. Joe: Right. Kevin: And wholesale businesses are a little bit harder to sell because you don't have really a brand. You're just selling other people's products. You don't have anything proprietary so they're a little bit harder to sell that's why I also said private labels is one of the better ones. So let's say it's in that 20 to 30% that's average, some people are higher than that some people are lower. But if you're in that 20 or 30% net you're doing okay for the most part. But what I used to do is when I was … it's … this business is all about choosing products. The product is the backbone of it. That's where it has a stone in a walk for a lot of people is they're afraid to pull the trigger because they're like I only have 5 grand or 10 grand to start, did I pick the right product. And sometimes they get paralysis by analysis and they just don't move forward. But when you're choosing a product I used to look at the profit margins. I'd find a crate maker for example as one of my old products and you know it had about a 40% margin from what I could buy it from landed and from what I was selling it from and I was like okay this is great but the problem was I was ordering … I ordered 1,000 of them and it took me about 6 months to sell those 1,000. And then I ordered another 1,000 and it took me about 5 months to sell the next thousand. So that's a turnover a little over 2 times per year. So I had a great profit on it but it was tying up my cash tying up my money and so ROI to me is the most important by far number in this business as you want to look at when you're sourcing products is what kind of return on investment. And that's basically how fast can you get your money back. And so I looked for ROI's of at least 150% or greater on everything I do now. And that basically means how many times … if I have and maybe a lower profit margin. Instead of the 40% profit margin, I may have a 25% profit margin. But if I have 150% ROI I'm working and turning that money and that inventory much much faster. And I can grow a lot quicker without having additional outside capital, without having to go into my RA or whatever it may be, or take expensive loans that are out there and you can grow your business faster. So by picking high ROI products, you have a greater chance to success. For example, I recommend you at least turn your inventory 4 times a year in an Amazon business. So it's basically every 3 months you need to be turning your inventory. Ideally 6 to 8. Some people you know a supplements business are at 12 or more. Just by example Walmart stores, their average inventory turnover is 8.3. So 8.3 times per year they're selling through their entire inventory. That's a critical number when choosing products and when choosing things to do in my opinion. So one of the bigger opportunities right now in the space is in the high ticket expensive items because all these courses out there they teach you find something if it fits in a shoe box it's lightweight weighs less, it's cost less than $20, it's easy to source you can buy in for a buck or 2 in China and sell them for 20 bucks on Amazon and the problem is that everybody is there. That's where everybody goes, that's where all the courses … everybody finds the same products, the same weighted blankets, the same barbecue gloves, the same stuff and only a few of those people succeed. And so if you go outside the box and look at the more expensive stuff maybe you don't have to buy a thousand units of them, you only have to buy some things that sell 5 per day but they're selling for $300 versus things that sell 50 per day and they're selling it at $20. You could make a lot more money on these more expensive things. And some people shy away from that because sometimes it's a little bit more of an investment to get into it. But there's great great opportunity there. And the other problem right now is what's happened with all the low end stuff is the Chinese hackers … most of them are Chinese, there are some that are Russian and Eastern European but the vast majority are Chinese and it's crazy what's happening out there. There are leaks inside of Amazon where these guys over in China can get the actual data straight from Amazon, the actual conversion data, the actual … they're doing all kinds of crazy stuff; hardcore competition and its part of their culture to do this. And most people don't … aren't aware of what's happening and your chances of competing on that lower end are getting harder and harder and harder because of all this. Joe: So you recommend to start off that way or you're thinking in terms of larger people … larger account owners to move into that category where its a larger ticket item and a high ROI? Kevin: Both. Joe: Both? Kevin: Yeah, both. Joe: Okay, you mentioned that if you're sending traffic to your Amazon store from Facebook you're doing something wrong on your Amazon … inside your Amazon seller account. What tools can be done what … and maybe it's all basics, Kevin, maybe this isn't anything new but what are the most important things to do to make sure you're improving your traffic on Amazon as much as possible or is it a combination of a number of different things? Kevin: I mean if you're a brand that already exists up there Amazon should just be a channel for you. You already have your own store. You're already selling in retail Amazon is just a channel so that's a little bit different approach. But if Amazon … if you're starting this business and Amazon is your primary focus at the beginning which is what most people are doing now that they're doing FBA business, Amazon is their primary focus in the beginning and that's great and people always say you shouldn't be an Amazon only business. You should be off Amazon and I agree with that but … and you could probably tell me more about this but my experience Joe in the valuations people always say well I don't want to just sell on Amazon. What if Amazon shuts my account down? Amazon likes to shoot 1st and ask questions later and then I'm screwed. I need to be selling on Walmart. I need to be selling on Jet. I need to have my own Shopify site. But most people, the vast majority of people that's a very small percentage of their sales and from my experience, unless it's 20 or 30% between … you know most people say about 30 % maybe you have a better number of your sales it doesn't really add to your valuation. If you got a sale or a buyer coming in if you got 2% of your sales in Walmart or [inaudible 00:30:59.9] if you get shut down on Amazon so what you're still screwed you got to fire everybody. And so most people it's hard to make that adjustment so my advice is if you're going to be starting on Amazon take advantage of the platform. There's never been a better opportunity. It's one of the best business opportunities in the last 100 years of business to start selling on Amazon. And like I said earlier if you're trying to build a brand then use that data and there are ways to do that to then start going off Amazon especially if you're on the consumables side. But I think you're better off taking that same energy that you're trying to put into building a Shopify site or trying to launch on Walmart to go expand to Canada, go expand to Europe, or go expand to Japan. You're much better off. You're going to get a better valuation. Canada is like 5% of my sales compared to the US but that's 2 ½ times what my sales in Walmart are and it's easy. It's same format. I already know how to do it. It's natural and most people are afraid to do that. They're afraid of other countries or they're afraid of other tax systems or they're … whatever. And its ego based. I want to be saying I sold on Walmart or I had my own site … it's bad. Joe: Yeah a lot of the folks that you and I know that are buying up Amazon businesses; one of the 1st things they do is take them international. They buy them and take them overseas. Let's talk about that for a minute- Kevin: But a lot of people don't do that because it's … you're basically doubling your investment. Let's say you want to go to Europe- Joe: They don't have the capital. Kevin: Most people in this business are cash strapped and that's where the opportunity right now is it's like the people that you just said that you know and that I know that are buying these, they're coming in with money and they see the opportunity and they come into play. And at first most of these entrepreneurs they use their life savings or … and then some to try to build this and they're cash strapped so they can't … I mean to go over to Europe you're basically okay now I got to buy all new inventory and float it and they can't do it. Joe: Yeah the people that are buying businesses like this that are coming into the entrepreneurial world for the 1st time say it's great why in the world are they selling? And I always have to ask that question on what they need to understand and what they're learning by going through the process is that most of these businesses whether it's a Shopify store or an Amazon business even those that I've sold in the past that are a combination of both and have a utility patent. It's still bootstrapped and most of the money being made is going back into inventory to keep up with growth. And they're not able to pull a whole lot out and so they're bootstrapping. And they don't expand overseas because they don't have any more places to dip into to pull more money. So somebody coming in from the outside that has that extra working capital and a mindset to take it beyond the 4 hour workweek and run it as you said a dozen times already as a real business and grow it into the different countries and take it beyond a one channel platform and beyond Amazon. You can take it to different countries and it's going to increase your value; it is when you could take it beyond into building that brand off of Amazon into different platform it builds your value even more. But you're got to be challenged. You got to look at that and say okay what … how long am I going to be in this game and how much am I going to invest in terms of time, energy, resources, risk into building a Shopify store and generating traffic to it. If you're going to sell in 6 months for those that are listening and you hear Kevin's advice you know multichannel he's right but every story is different and unique. You don't want to build a Shopify store and start driving traffic to it and investing a lot of money in breaking even or losing for 3 years down the road if you're going to sell in 6 months. My advice is to do what you do and do it really well. Keep selling on Amazon and make that business strong and have some built in path to grow. Kevin: Another one too besides Europe I mean like … or expanding to other market … I mean Amazon's into what 13 marketplaces now? But besides expanding to other marketplaces the other opportunity that's out there is … it goes again back again that gets cash strapped is retail. I mean retail is not dead. I mean there are all these stories about retail is dead and tears is going out of business and Radio Shack went out of business and blah, blah, blah. They didn't adapt. Amazon is going into retail. They've bought whole foods. They're opening retail Amazon Go's. They're opening these 4 star stores out. They're going … retail is not dead. It's still 90% of all sales out there and it's going to probably remain at above 80% for the next several decades. I mean ecommerce is gaining on … it's going to take a bigger share but so going into retail using Amazon as a proven ground is a great way to get into retail too. Joe: How do you make that leap though in Amazon? How do you go okay I'm going to go into retail? Is there a Helium 10 for retail? Kevin: No there's not a Helium 10 for retail, it's a whole different animal. You're just saying about the opportunities outside of Amazon is I agree going to Amazon … other Amazon Marketplace is first should be your top priority if you can. But going into retail I know several people that have started on Amazon and now they're crushing it in retail. But that's … again that's another cash flow thing you know you've got to … it's a whole different animal. There's people that teach … like Karen Waksman stuff that teaches actually people how to go from Amazon to retail and how to get into retail and how to use your Amazon reviews and sales and demographics. And you have this data like look you know I have a lot of people in New York or these areas and you have 27 Target stores right here you know you should be tearing my products. There's a lot you can do there but it's it takes again it's another financial thing. You got to wait 60 days or more to get paid or you got to use factoring to factor invoices and brief purchase orders and so it's a whole different animal but there's great opportunity there too. Joe: But it's also as you're saying it's more cash but it's also math figuring that out and pulling that data out of Amazon. A lot of people have trouble just pulling the data out. Kevin: Yeah they can't that's why I said in the beginning, this is math. If you're not good at math or data analysis you need someone on your team that is. This business is not about … I see so many people go like I improved the product, I made it better, I know my product is good people should just buy it. If the demand is not there, if the data doesn't work, the analyst … there's too much competition you can't … you don't have the margins you've got to bail. To me, people get too emotionally tied to products and then it becomes their little baby and they don't want to abandon their child. Sometimes you've got to kick the kid out of the house. So many people won't do that. I have a rule that after 6 months … I get a product 6 months that I launch. When I launch a new product under my account if within 6 months it's not throwing off at least $2,000 a month in profit, I drop the product because I can deploy that capital in a better way. And so I have … you know some people their business models add, add, add products they got hundreds or thousands of products in their portfolio, mine is not that. I have about 15 to 20 and I do 7 figures so it's manageable. And I kick out once that I replace them with something that can give me a better … it's like stocks you know. I treat products like stocks. And I look at them like stocks, where can I get the best return? And get rid of the low performing ones and replace them, deploy that money into getting something that's higher return. Joe: Let's talk about that just for a minute. We're running a little short on time but I want to touch on new products and staying relevant. And it's going to different for each one. But we're talking now about again the people that are buying the Amazon businesses and one of the great things they can do if they've got capital is to expand to the other countries. What about launching new products is there any methodology to how often you should launch a new product? Or should you just adopt what you've talked about which is it needs to kick off this amount of profit or I get rid of it? And how many can you manage and the folks that you know that are doing … are they doing 10, 15, 20; what are they doing? Kevin: It depends on your … I know people that have 800 products doing 9 figures a year and I know people … typically the people that are doing 9 figures a year have a lot of products. The people that are doing 6 and 7 figures typically … I mean some of them have a lot of products some of them has 50, 60, 70 products. That seems to be kind of a ballpark range. For these guys there in the million dollar figures, they typically are in the probably at least 40, 50 products and then some thousands of products. But as far as launching new products it's all based on the more products you can launch the better you can grow, its cash flow and its opportunities. I see opportunities all the time when I'm doing keyword research and product research and I can't act on it I just don't have the money or I don't have the resources. I'm a small team you know. Some people have 20 people and they could deploy faster. They're sitting in their underwear in their house and it's just them and a couple of VA's. So you're limited by that as well. So it depends on your strategy and your resources how fast you could deploy but as you see opportunities and they still exist out there and there are still new ones coming up every day is taking advantage of those depends on your cash and your team size. And the more of them you can take advantage of the faster you could grow and the more you could sell for. But the money in this business too, one of the important point I want to make is I truly believe that money is made in the sourcing, not on the selling. A lot of people always go what can I sell the product for? It's not what you can sell it for it's what you can source it for. Because you have more price … you're more immune to price competition that way. If everybody is going to Alibaba or global sources or online Google and stuff and just by example you know I just went to China. I went to the Canton fair and there are some socks that a friend of mine sold last year and sold like six … $700,000 for these socks Christmas time and they were paying something like 2 bucks a pair for these socks. Well I found those exact same socks by just going to the Canton fair at 57 cents. You're not going to find that online so most people that are out there doing Amazon they're sourcing online. They're using Alibaba, they're using global sources, my saying is get on a freaking plane and go to China. Because going in face to face you can … it's a big deal in their culture and you could find a lot of stuff that just doesn't exist. I found one supplier of these like Christmas bags that I was like okay great you have a lot of bags I might want to sell these next year as a seasonal item. I said can I go to your website? He said no I don't have a website, oh if you have a catalog … no, I don't have a catalog. I said so how do I order from you? He said take pictures. He had 10,000 different types of bags. Take a picture of what you want here and I'll give you a price, that and the prices were ridiculously low from what I could find on Alibaba. Joe: Sounds like an awful and wonderful- Kevin: So I'm like this is the best opportunity ever because nobody else is going to find this guy. His quality is good, the prices are ridiculous. So that's what I mean the money is made in the sourcing. So if someone else … if I buy a box of socks for example if someone else … you know if I'm buying them at 57 cents and someone else comes in and I'm selling mine say for 10 bucks and all of a sudden someone comes in and starts selling them for 5 bucks. Well, I'm like shoot if I got to go to 4.99 to compete and I'm paying 2 bucks there what my margin maybe I'm going in the hole even after the Amazon fees and everything. Because typically it's about a 3rd a 3rd a 3rd … I mean just as a … if you're doing math, get math, ballpark math Amazon typically takes about a 3rd of the selling price, about a 3rd of the selling price is your cost of goods sold and other expenses, and about 3rd is your profit. So I don't [inaudible 00:41:52.6] 5 bucks there went all my profit but if I'm at 57 cents I can still compete. So that's what I mean the money is in the sourcing and so don't be afraid to get on a plane and go to one of these big fairs in China. Go visit factories that can make a huge difference. And people that are selling, you know the biggest thing that they're already successful the number one thing you can do is if you're sourcing from China especially is get on a plane and go meet your factory. Go eat strange bugs and weird stuff and monkey hearts and whatever the hell else they eat crazy stuff over there and get drunk with the supplier and watch what happens to your pricing. Watch what happens to your terms. All of a sudden 30% down 70% on delivery all of a sudden maybe you get a 60 day terms or you get some other things that can make a huge difference in your business and the pricing is lower. Now you're their buddy you get priority on the production line when it's Christmas time or before Chinese New Year your stuff goes out first. It's amazing what you can do on the sourcing side. Joe: Wow Kevin that's incredible stuff, a lot of tidbits there. Incredible; really, thank you. I understand why you're traveling all over the world speaking and presenting here. If people want to reach out to you and find you how do they go about doing that? Kevin: Yeah sure I mean the probably easiest way is to go to AMZmarketer.com That's A – M – Zed Marketer.com that just redirects to my Facebook page where you can … I don't sell you anything there. It's just where you can listen to all the different podcasts I've been on; a lot of free content. You might get some ideas or learn something. Or if you're already selling at IlluminatiMastermind.com or if you're new to the business and I always recommend this to people … if you're new to the business or even if you've been selling for a while go to FreedomTicket.com there's a webinar there. It's about a two hour webinar it's … you could choose a date on auto replay. It's not live right now but just watch that. You don't have to buy the course if you don't want to but just watch the first hour of that webinar and I think you'll walk away from that. It's not a sales pitch in the first hour. It's a lot of hard core data on how to choose the keywords, how to do things right in this business and just … it's hard core training and just watch that and that might help you understand some stuff. Joe: That sounds great. I hope a lot of people will do that. Those people that are currently running their Amazon businesses and plan to exit someday and the people that are buying we want them to be successful and grow their businesses and come back and sell them someday so that's awesome. Thanks so much, Kevin. I appreciate your time. I look forward to seeing you at the next event. Kevin: Cool, I appreciate it. Thanks. Links and Resources: AMZMarketer.comIlluminatiMastermind.comFreedomTicket.com  

In this episode Erinn Nobel from Bellingham Washington joins us. Erinn has been a real estate agent for 20 years and she's a successful high volume producer.  She is one of the early members of EXP and today she talks about the growth and momentum build up from the early stages of EXP until now. She gives us her perspective on the power of EXP's technology and how it is being an industry game changer. She explains the myths about the EXP system and culture and touches on how fast EXP is growing through out Alaska and Canada. She gives us her advice on due diligence.   Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly. In this episode EXP growth and monument buildup Real time support through Sky Slope and the EXP platform from assistant brokers. Access EXP technology throughout your own brokerage branding.  EXP's culture standpoint vs the classic franchise and MLM or Pyramid systems. Releaf from "bricks and mortar" and administration work through EXP's cloud based system and lead generation programs have groundbreaking technology programs that have transaction management tools. Revenue share,  team growth and the disinformation and myths about them. Attracting agents and growing your revenue share.   Take Away "We are not a recruiting company if we're recruiting company. We would be out of business. We are producing company. We want agents that are in production that are building the revenue so we can all take part of it and share the revenue revenues. Sure it's just for expense."   Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Tom to inquire or ask questions. Contact Erinn: Call at 360 398 3883 Email: Erinn.Nobel@EXPrealty.com  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ErinnNobel Voxer: Erinn Nobel. Links: www.EXPCloud.com     ERINN NOBEL FOR SONIX.mp3 KEVIN: Welcome back to another episode of "The EXP explained podcast" I am host Kevin Cottrell joining me today is Erinn Nobel from Bellingham Washington. A special guest she's been with EXP almost since the beginning. Not quite as long as Brian Culhane who you've heard in his episode share his story about the founding of the company but Erinn has been in regional leadership. She's a successful high volume producer including a member of the CRS community. And Erinn is going to have some great insight to share with us today for agents looking to understand a little bit more detail why agents are coming over from other brokerages and joining EXP realty. Stay tuned for my interview with Erin Nobel. Welcome to the show Erin. ERINN: Kevin thanks so much. KEVIN: Well looking forward to our conversation now they're going to be plenty of people that listen to the podcast that may be not familiar with you. And from the Pacific Northwest. Can you take a minute and give a little bit of your history and background in real estate and also touch on the early days of the EXP because you've been around for a while haven't you? ERINN: I sure have. Yes. It's been a fun ride. That's for sure. Yeah I'd be happy to. So in a nutshell this is my 20th year as a residential real estate agent right here in Bellingham Washington where EXP was founded back in 2009. I have been practicing residential real estate here in Bellingham Washington since 1999 and made the leap over to EXP four years ago as agent number 337. We were only open in 18 states at the time and it was just kind of a wild ride. KEVIN: Erin when the company started and obviously you knew Glenn because he's from the same town as you and you were familiar with him from his days probably back at Keller Williams is what would make you even take a look at EXP I know you were involve CRS you you're pretty well-known the Pacific Northwest and you had a successful real estate practice. What were the drivers for you if you look back in the early days of the EXP. Because it's a different company now and I know we'll talk about that that caused you to even look at it initially. ERINN: Yes it's a much different company. For me it was really just the vision that Glen had and the future of what the real estate model really looked like after coming through the recession and building my business back up in 2010 11 and 12. I was just really identifying what some key factors that were not working in the business anymore. I was working at a small local boutique brokerage and it was very well branded here locally. But I noticed that clients were calling in and they couldn't even pronounce the name of the brokerage anymore. They were really trying to just identify an agent and we didn't have the agents in the spotlight. Were at the forefront. It was all about the real estate broker or that brokerage. So I just noticed a shift in the thought. How can I align my business and my skill set and be in the forefront and be able to attract clients that I want to work with instead of having them funnel through my brokerage model first. So I sat down with Debbie. She had just made the leap over the EXP from a large local real estate franchise here in the Pacific Northwest. She and I were actually originally licensed together back in 1999 and I had known for her for quite a few years obviously but she was telling me about this new business model EXP and how it really is promoting the agent at the forefront. It's empowering the agents and showcasing the agents in a way that I had never heard of before so she really lined me out with that. And we met together with Glenn for dinner and he basically took me through the entire story in the process of how EXP came to be how he had been working through Keller Williams and running mega teams throughout the Northwest here and I believe in parts of the Southwest as well. But he was looking to expand and trying to find a solution for an expansion team that would not only financially be beneficial for the agents but helped to scale his business and scale through a basically recession proof model. That's what he created and I thought my goodness he's really on to something here and I want to be part of this. I joined immediately that day. That was four years ago. KEVIN: What's interesting about we're EXP is today and you know your interview and part of that discussion would be well for people listening to go listen to the two part interview I did with Brian Culhane because Brian was in fact working with Glen in the Southwest US and had the big teams down in Arizona and the markets there and so I think he was the first agent call it the sort of the de facto co-founder in the early days and you know right in the beginning and forefront he talks a lot about everything from the name of the company being selected in a lot of the early thoughts. And so it doesn't surprise me. You and I have interacted a fair amount that you had enough vision for this especially with your passion around the agents you've been heavily involved in stress and it's a different company today. You know if you look at Jean-Frederic and he came in I think it was agent for 77 or something like that was when he came out and he came in a little bit after you. Not much. And you know it was just over three years ago at this point. So what's happened since then and I know I don't want to talk about your role as an RTL and working with lots of teams and brokers and people that are interested in the EXP to talk a little bit about the early days versus now because you talk about a new business model and being more agent centric the offerings and the value proposition is so much more robust today. It's so much more developed the systems the cloud all of the offerings are such. How do you see it playing out in other words you are an early adopter. You came in early there wasn't a lot if any of the systems that are in place today. In other words there was a vision and the company certainly was operating in a you know a handful of states 16 or 18 states at that point versus where it is now. And so what were your thoughts on that versus what if you were talking to somebody who's listening to this today you know in other words there are still people out there especially compared as they're saying oh there's still a startup company they don't have anything together in terms of systems. Absolutely. And I wanted to be part of that momentum. I saw an idea and I knew it was going to be big and I wanted to jump in fully and help out you know contribute in any way or form that they could. And we did that fully. My husband actually left a 20 year career at Microsoft to come over as CEO for the company to build out our enterprise system with Glenn. We just loved the idea of the company and the promotion of the company and doing it in the right way. But especially it's achieving that momentum now which has really shifted the company. Everybody is talking about the EXP Realty. It's kind of the local latest buzz because it is real. It's providing agents with agent ownership it's providing a way for agents to not only excel in the business but to get out of the business at some point and retire and have a nice lifestyle. That's the type of momentum that we wanted to be part of in the early days we didn't have the momentum right. It took a massive had turn Turner agent or many brokerage to come over to the model and join with the EXP to get some local attention. And the frenzy going that other people would identify with and start questioning hey what is this. You know I want to learn more. Now it's almost on a hourly basis with people reaching out to me asking questions wanting to learn more about the model and the interest is peeked. Let's just say that. Well absolutely. I mean it's one of those things where you know to give people some perspective you know you were talking about you know being in the mid 300 ads as far as Agent count. You know when Gene joined I think it's 37 months ago 37 - 38 months ago there were just under 450 470 agents. Texas had I think if I know the number correctly I don't have every one of these numbers memorized but they're either at 7 or 12 agents in the entire state of Texas. You know now we're at about 2400 in less than 38 or 40 months. And so you know what Erinn is talking about is a massive amount of momentum the company has built out you know for all intents and purposes the entire North American content from the standpoint of United States as well as most of the provinces in Canada. When you look at the operation the footprint is at the point now where even if an agent who is listening to this know somebody in Kansas or know somebody in Florida or even in British Columbia which is a recent addition to the EXP's footprint they have the ability like you talked about from a standpoint of referring them in and having them join. That is much broader than it was when you were involved in other words you could do things in Washington state you could do things in certain areas. But both from an MLS footprint and a state being opened it was very limited initially. So for any agent listening to this it's a whole different world now and I'm seeing a shift and I'm wondering what your perspective is on this Erin. And people no longer thinking about this as early adopters in other words not only are all the top brokers from a lot of the big franchises joining. It used to be it would happen you know last fall Jay Kinder joint right? And there was a huge amount of momentum generated by that at this point. It's almost weekly that somebody is joining from a big franchise because I think that the risk either perceived or actual In other words for a while it was perceived. And then from an actual standpoint they can look at it and if they do due diligence and I'm wondering if you're seeing this change in the perspective agents now if they'll actually look into the due diligence the risk is out of the switch at this point. There aren't a whole lot of holes in the value proposition that they may have heard about that even exist anymore. Don't you agree. ERINN: Yeah absolutely. KEVIN: Well let's talk a little about some of the stuff you mentioned from the standpoint where you use terms about you know coming into the real estate business people might be sitting in independent like you were or a big franchise and they're thinking God the only way on a bill to retire is to sell my business my team or build it up to a certain size and replace myself or I might be able to make enough gross commission income and net enough that I can buy properties. EXP is different than that. So let's talk a little about your perspective on that. I know you have this conversation from a wealth standpoint quite a bit. ERINN: Oh yeah absolutely. And that's where I really see the model shine. We've got a lot of mom and pop businesses out here in the Pacific Northwest that are seeing the shift in the model and the change. And agencies are not coming into the office anymore. And here they've got so much money invested in not only bricks and mortar but in a phone line that the fax and the copy machines for the office staff that's sitting there to support our agents who are not going into the office. So they're trying to find a new way to invigorate that business by offering some education basically any sort of new technology to offer lead generation to their agents. But all of these are piecemeal add on products that those broker owners are having to absorb. This is where you can come in and power that company. It's basically like a bolt on product to a brokerage and power that brokerage where they keep their own branding. So say it's you know Thompson real estate. It would be Thompson real estate with the EXP realty or brokered by experience. They're able to fully branding in place and intact because they worked so hard to build that brand in their local area and add on our EXP product essentially which they can then offer to all of their agents. We have a lead generation programs have groundbreaking technology programs that have transaction management tools. We have education easily accessible through our cloud based environment. We have mastermind's lead almost daily. It's just incredible for these agents to now be able to access its technology throughout their own brokers that they're already familiar with. And this is where I'm really seeing the future of the real estate models as we know it make the shift and adopt the EXP technology. KEVIN: Well certainly the interview idea with Mitch Ryback he talks about that right here. He had Tropical realty down in Florida and he was going to do a seven figure sale and then stepped back from that and went with the EXP to be powered by EXP instead. And one of the things in addition to the economics of the change he talks about the brand he talks about the tools you know things like Cavey core and Web sites. And what's interesting about it is he also touched on something that is sort of the dirty part of brokerage I don't mean that in a bad way but just what they don't like doing right. They like to wash our hands of this which is the actual brokering compliance the in and out of licenses the transaction management looking at the contract review making sure ENO is in order all of the stuff that so many people who have built up these independent brokerages just don't like to do. Now this also applies and I don't know if you've seen this but Gene and I haven't heard this from a lot of the rainmakers because there's a logical progression whether you're a big rainmaker for a team at a franchise or you're independent quite often. You know if they're at a brokerage their next step they start thinking about hey do I go out on my own. And what they haven't thought through is exactly that. In other words you can do it and then they look at how much was I paying in company dollar to my company. But when you start to pull back the curtain on all of the steps needed and all the staffing needed to do all of that sort of the dirty brokerage part the compliance pieces all of the admin stuff they haven't thought that through and typically from a behavioral style right these are driver personalities a profile and they don't even want to touch that stuff and so I know one of the things that I'm seeing and Gene is seeing when we're in meetings is the rainmakers and if you're a rainmaker and you're thinking that's your next step. This is probably something you want to look at because the economic model and the way you EXP sets things up in a team environment even a large team environment and even if you're in multiple markets right you're an expansion team. The tools that Erinn is talking about provide you with a great platform where you don't have to staff up and handle all of that admin stuff because that's just a cost center. There's no there's no real value or leverage in that side of the business is there. ERINN: No. No there really is. And one thing I really wanted to touch on which is one of the most common questions that I'm asked is how does EXP provide that type of support. How are we able to review transactions. How are we compliance. How does this work. And really what we've created is the perfect system for transparency between that broker or managing broker or broker owner and the agents. We've created a system that is completely paperless which is also obviously economically friendly and we're using sky slope transaction management to review each and every file that transaction that an EXP agent is party to. So the broker has complete access to these files checked for compliance. Make comments and no edit anything in there as necessary prior to the agents closing or finding that file. We've also created a system for agents to get instant or immediate access to help with any sort of transaction where they can reach out to their broker where they can reach out to the assistant managing broker in place and just have instantaneous help there's no more waiting in the office or your broker to be free or to get back from lunch. You just reach out it's simply either through the phone app or EXP world and get answers at your fingertips. I think it's just brilliant. KEVIN: The other part of all of that is from a system standpoint and agents are painfully aware if they're at a franchise locations for example and let's say they're on the East Coast right or the West Coast right. Here's the two examples. And you go do a walk through on your property and invariably something comes up and you've got to do an adjustment. Something wasn't fixed. There is something that is still a defect or something that was discovered. And now you're going to do a 5000 dollar price adjustment or some other thing like that that affects your D.A the ability to have the transaction and the accounting team available in the cloud is a huge game changer. Right. Imagine you're in the East Coast. You do your walk through at six thirty or 7 at night and you discover this. Now you've got an agreement you've got an amendment and a modification. There are accounting and payment people in the EXP cloud so to speak just to use basic terms that are going to be available there are going to be less cost people because as Erinn talked about we're on Sky slope and a common system nationwide the ability to affect that change to a contract in a DA and have you not have it turn into a scramble to text major broker at night figure out how to do this and get it done for the title company in the morning is a game changer for a lot of people now if you put that in the context of high volume for a rainmaker. That stuff happens every week every month right there doing enough volume that that stuff's happening regularly. Now an agent doesn't do a lot of volume may not have that happen but once a quarter or a couple of times a year. Now the rainmakers and the big players and we have a disproportionate amount of those higher volume players coming in the EXP are painfully aware of what a huge value this is and the system you're talking about Erin is huge. The fact that Sky Slope is available nationwide the staffing is available in multiple time zones and we're not anchored to an old school model of a bricks and mortar location is a game changer like you said most agents don't go into the office a emergency which somebody will go to the office might be to go get a DA fixed. If they had to and they hate it. ERINN: Oh yeah yeah. And it just allows you to have the opportunity to scale their own business. It allows EXP to scale and expand. And quite honestly if we need more help if our brokers are needing support we add brokers we add assistant brokers we've got people in place there to support our agents just through EXP crowd and our other technology. And it's just fantastic it's a tremendous system. KEVIN: Absolutely. So let's talk a little bit more about well from the standpoint of revenue share and equity because I know this comes up right. The reason I want to touch on this in general terms is there's so much disinformation out in the marketplace. I know this was a factor for you. You're one of the early people that came on you've had this conversation hundreds if not thousands of time about what does this revenue share and why would I even pay attention to it. Tell me a little about the equity awards. There's so much. Even today I saw something posted on social media this morning about stuff it's just plain inaccurate and it's based on old information. They're talking about the fact that you know this is pre NASDAQ listing and the fact that there's all sorts of issues. What is your answer about revenue share in terms of how you explain it and why it's a big game changer for agents. ERINN: Sure. I mean I look at revenue share as the company EXP paying me a referral fee for bringing great quality agents to EXP. It's as simple as that. And I can build my revenue share family my revenue share trade as deep and as wide as I want to by attracting quality agents that all they want to do is sell real estate. It's pretty simple. KEVIN: And that's a good way to put it. I mean one of the things that I tell people that have broad reach. In other words sometimes people will show up and they're pretty active in the training community right they attend events because of their franchise or otherwise they know lots of agents all over the country. You know I talk about this being no different the payment methodology is different but it is like a referral fee and you hit that on the head in terms of the way I explain it but it's almost like your a virtual region. In other words when you hear people talk about like Pat Hayes or Mitch Ryback or Gene their region I mean in the case of some of these big revenue share groups they're in thirty forty or fifty states. Some people are five to six states pretty quickly because they end up knowing agents and then those agents no agents in other markets. And it didn't matter if it was a relationship that was done just on social media or it's somebody from an old franchise that's in a different market. It's one of those things where you know we're certainly not looking for people to come in and like in my old role at Keller Williams I was a team leader right. I'm not looking for people to become a team leader right. We're looking for people and the way agents are doing this is the natural progression of their business right. Either the fact that they have relationships and they do referrals for transactions or they know people because of previous trainings in that is the way that they attract agents right. They may attract a few or they may attract many. I mean Brent Gove is a perfect example of somebody who's got an enormous amount of agents in a short period of time. And I know you because CRS and otherwise have a lot of agents in different markets do don't you. ERINN: Oh absolutely do. I've got agents you know connected from Alaska to New York and my revenue share group and it's fantastic because it's a great way for me to build out my referral business which is a good 50 percent of my business that I generate every year. But now my revenue sharing group can benefit from that referral base business as well. KEVIN: For people that have heard that this is like some crazy MLM or a pyramid thing. This is no different than the franchise system that collects a royalty and gets paid into a pool and then it's paying regional owners. That's effectively a referral fee too. Right? Actually the same thing so if you've been misled to that you probably want to look back at this again. You know it's not anything that occurs or anything other than as Erinn said production right. The only way it works is if agents are with the EXP and they're in production and this is paid into a pool much like the pool that is paid off of the top with a franchise that's royalties. We don't collect royalties that he EXP. And so you can think about it somewhat similarly. And like you said it's a way to build out and grow your group over time and assist others to do it as well. I know I had a number of people on including an agent in Houston and he talked about the fact that a year into it that he was now starting to think about raising his splits for his team because the revenue share has grown to the point where he wanted them to get the reward on helping him build his business and he was helping them grow their revenue share as well. So for rainmakers listening to this if you think about this on a more broad basis this might prevent you from having that constant turnover and push poll conflict in the team environment right and a lot of the franchises I've had several guests on that said this is I never felt like I could retain people right. What was the next step for him if talent showed up. I'd always worried they'd leave. I want to go do something different in the EXP world. You hear person after person talk about the fact that they want team members to succeed. Brent talked about this tourney talked about this in Dallas and even if they want to go form their own team you help them. We're all shareholders. We're all based in the same direction and that's a big difference from a cultural standpoint don't you think? ERINN: It's a huge difference from a cultural standpoint and I think that's one key myth that is pretty prevalent with people are the naysayers about the EXP. We are not a recruiting company if we're recruiting company. We would be out of business. We are producing company. We want agents that are in production that are building the revenue so we can all take part of it and share the revenue revenues. Sure it's just for expense. KEVIN: Well and I think a big inflection occurred this spring when Brett Inman came up. And as you're aware was up in your town interviewed Glenn and a number of other people and the article came out and I think it raised more than a few eyebrows when he declared that EXP in his opinion based on his conversation with Glenn was going to be essentially the NRT of the cloud and you know put a stake in the ground and basically said 50000 agents. And I think what really blew people away was the 50000 agents and the date that he put in there and how fast it was occurring. You know with a company ending last year at 6500 and change being at 12000 now I think it's easy for people in the industry that have been around and seen this picture before to now look at and go yep 50000 agents this is in sight now. And if the company continues to execute they'll get there. And this is a whole different world right you at the top of this interview you were talking about three hundreds thinking about getting to 2000 agents was gone. How long is that going to take us. ERINN: Oh my gosh yes and that was painful work. People don't understand all the work that goes behind the scenes to build out EXP not only in a new MLS but in a new state. It's monumental. I mean it can take a year up to two years to open in states. I we're still one state that we're not open and yet because of regulations we do everything that we can to be compliant and make compliance not only for the local and state boards but the MLSes in Alaska for example they require a very small bricks and mortar office with a sign facing the street. So it can be a very long and painful arduous process to become open in every state and now we are not. This is another reason why we're seeing such success in such monumental growth. All of a sudden it seems it's because we're able to add agents and almost every single MLS across the nation and Canada. KEVIN: Well absolutely and I think if you look at the franchise system that has profit sharing right. There's enough former members of that company that are here now that have been here long enough. Sherry Elíott is one I did an interview with her and there's a number of others. There's probably hundreds at this point. Now we're making comparisons right. And so the conversation in the marketplace used to be it's not going to work. Nobody is going to make any money with revenue share it doesn't work. You know you're making a huge mistake and that was almost a quote verbatim from Sherry Elliott. Right. And she's now able to have a conversation and say here's why I used to make. Here's what I make now. And here's how I did it. And Brent Gove can do the same thing. You know a number of them can do that and there's literally hundreds of them. And I think that's helping as well and for scaling perspective we're throwing a lot of numbers around what you talked about having in the entire company four years ago. The company is adding more than that per week at this point right. Yeah. Way more than that at this point. And so some of that is the build out and the success we've had and all that hard work that's occurred. But I also think that we've hit that inflection point. You talk about the hockey stick where at this point especially after the Nasdaq up listing we've got enough disclosure information out there. We've been accepted on the Nasdaq. You can point people that are those S and C in the disk profile they say just go read the filings you'll see all of the data there you'll see all of the full disclosure and it takes away a lot of those concerns. Plus they can look in the marketplace and go wow that was the number one agent for that franchise that actually just left. Oh there's another number one agent Northern California for that franchise. There's a number one agent from San Diego. It doesn't take too many of those for the trickle down effect of you know ending up at 350 or more agents a week coming in nationwide and we're headed to a much bigger number than that. It's going to be the opportunity and the challenge for the company but the good news is you talked about the systems are all in place now to take advantage of that. So Erinn I have a question for you. Now there's somebody listening to this right. They've listened to the first part over 20 25 minutes of us talking. If somebody is interested in some of the key factor right they called you up on the phone and said hey why EXP what would be the two or three things from a due diligence standpoint you would say you definitely need to think about this this and this. ERINN: Oh absolutely definitely due diligence read about you EXP on the EXP world holding site. We have a lot of information there that talks about the very most specifics about the company about exactly how the revenue share program works about how agent ownership works look into our stock. It's EXP I is the ticker symbol. And we're now traded on the Nasdaq. Seek advice from your accountant or your CPA definitely have them look into the background of it. You know also meet with an EXP agent has been in the business for a while get perspective find out what their pain points might be. Find out what the huge benefits are for them about working with the EXP and just find the story learn the background. KEVIN: Which is fantastic. Erinn what I would like to reiterate and I've done this on every interview is it doesn't matter who introduced you to the EXP right. It could have been a fairly new agent. That was the same franchise you were and you're a mega agent ask that agent to get you in touch with Erinn, Gene-Frederic myself anybody. We have every guest on this podcast give their contact information. Doesn't matter how you heard about the EXP. We're all here to make sure you get connected with the right people to do what Erinn suggested and there are plenty of people some of them would be peers. Some of them maybe a little ahead in the business of where you want to build to that we'll be happy to share their story of coming over. It's not a matter of them having any kind of concern about the fact that they didn't introduce you to the company. That doesn't matter. As we've talked about there is a shareholder program and we're all shareholders. We want great agents to join the company so I know Erinn you have these conversations with people all the time you talk with somebody in the Pacific Northwest. For me the very first month I joined the company. And you know it's one of those things where it's just part of the culture of the business and this is something that from the outside I don't think it's very well known. So again if you've not been introduced to EXP you need to get in touch with somebody. Erinn will be giving her contact information at the end of this interview. You can certainly reach out to somebody in the marketplace if you look in your MLS and you see somebody you recognize may be happy to chat with you about it. If you have been introduced to EXP and you want to chat with somebody ask them to get in touch with their sponsor or go to the podcast look in the notes or listen in the end here where Erinn gives her contact information or any of the other guests on any other podcast interview. We're all happy to talk with you or get you pointed into the right direction if there's somebody else you should talk to beyond us. Anything you want to add to that Erinn before I get your contact info for and listeners? ERINN: I just have one favorite story that I love to share with people about the EXP. One of the biggest pain points for people is where do I go to work. What do I do without an office space. You are not bricks and mortar. Well I encourage them. OK get creative. Think about this. Why do you need to work in a real estate office in competition with other realtors. Rethink this. We have one guy with the EXP who did something bold and I just love it. He opened up shop in a car wash a drive through car wash. And I just think this is brilliant. He branded his cards with a car wash. Basically a little punched sticker thing and hands them out to people as they come to the car wash. Once they hit 10 he gives them a free carwash. He's got a constant steady flow of business coming through it's like a revolving door and he's actually built his business up through patrons of this carwash. So if you need bricks and mortar space. Get creative. Now part with an attorney partner with a title or escrow company or one of your local lenders. We encourage you to branch out reach out and really expand your network that way. KEVIN: Absolutely. That's great information and that's a good example. I mean we also have agents that are pulling together like in San Diego where they have 3 regional sort of we work type of locations that they've set up collectively between the entire big groups of rainmakers and teams and agents as they come in to join the EXP. It can get in and subscribe and get either a hot desk or a regular place to work. There's lots of solutions. I have yet to find anybody that's a hard stop for there are so few agents that if you don't walk through it they can't figure it out sometimes but when you talk to about it they're like oh yeah I could do that or I could do this and as you just described there's a great business case for why you would want to do something different. I mean sitting in an office where nobody is going to come in. So Erinn before we drop off help somebody reach you if they like to talk with you live about the EXP. ERINN: Oh sure plenty of ways you can reach me either on my cell phone which is 3 6 0 3 9 8 3 8 8 3. I'm on Facebook as Erinn Nobel. You can also reach me via email. It's Erinn.Nobel@EXPrealty.com and I'm also on Voxer as Erinn Nobel. KEVIN: Fantastic and just kind of a hint for listeners. Erinn didn't mention it but if you're looking schedule a call or connect with her one of the best ways would be to text. And then you can catch her that way and do it or send or an e-mail. We're all fairly busy but we're all of the culture that we want to make ourselves available and sometimes rather than leaving voicemails or chasing people around that Sims tends to be the easiest thing. Any final thoughts before we drop off today? ERINN: Not that I can think of top of mind but if you're in the Pacific Northwest Alaska Canada I'm local and I'm more than happy to talk with you. KEVIN: Fantastic thanks for coming on the show. Thanks so much. Kevin's great.  

Sean Purcell - Interview In this episode joining us is Sean Purcell. Sean started in the real estate market back in 1987 when he was in college and has been in most aspects of the industry including home building, loans, residential real estate and moving on to becoming a coach and a productivity coach with Keller Williams. Sean talks to us about his decision to leave the franchise system and becoming an owner of a fast growing company. He gives us his prospective on EXP from an agent stand point and an independent broker that made the decision to move to the agent centric model of EXP.  Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.     In this episode: How to become an owner of a company that is getting bigger EXP is agent owned and agent centric.  EXP brings phenomenal technology to the forefront for the agents to use. Income, wealth building opportunities and equity differences between the EXP and the franchise system. Advice and steps on due diligence. The power of EXP is most times not apparent from the outside. How to really get informed about EXP Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Sean to inquire or ask questions. Contact Sean via email at Sean@thriveestate.com Contact Sean via phone at 619 993 9888. Noteworthy "Before EXP when you stopped showing homes you stopped making money. This is an actual retirement equity building company you could be a part of." Sean Purcel    PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION KEVIN: Welcome to the show Sean. SEAN: Thanks Kevin it's great to be here. KEVIN: While I'm looking forward to our conversation I've certainly have always watched you and your career in San Diego area and was excited to see you make the decision to come over DXP realty but before somebody who's listening maybe doesn't know your background hasn't heard of you before. Why don't you take a few minutes and give your real estate history. In other words your background in some of the work you've done right. SEAN: Ok. For the people who have a hard time sleeping at night. I started in real estate out of college back in 1987 and I've been in pretty much every aspect other than Title. I've done the loans I've done home building, primarily I've done real estate residential. I'd say about five or six years ago I started coaching agents more than I was doing real estate itself. And about three and a half years ago joined Keller Williams and became what's called a productivity coach there and really starting up with the job of coaching agents that became my career. Until we left Keller Williams my wife and I was a team leader and started our own brokerage. We want to do things a little differently and we thought we're the only ones who had this idea about it should be about collaboration and it's about helping one another and having ownership in what you do and in the community. And along comes the EXP was a fantastic surprise. KEVIN: Well it's excellent so you're a productivity coach. I was a team leader at Keller Williams Your wife was a team leader. You know one of the things the whole industry has always touted right? Everybody said it but I want to get your perspective on it now that you've been an independent broker which you and your wife launched in 2017 but when you look at an agent centric business this truly agent centric an agent owned this is different than what the franchises call an agent centric business isn't it. SEAN: Absolutely. The matter of fact I think what EXP is doing is the second major disruption in the industry. This is just my theory but the agent centered model that really Gary Keller brought to the forefront. That disrupted the broker centric model to a large degree and changed Real Estate and I see EXP coming along and saying it's not just agents centric it's owners the agents should own the company. That's a massive disruption. KEVIN: Well I would agree with you. You know for those of us... and I was with Keller Williams for a long time and had a career there Gene-Frederic was there for a long time. And so we spent a lot of time talking about the franchise model and you know kind of dissecting the moniker around agent centric business. Now you can say you're an agent centric national franchise or global franchise allow the agent to have their brand right the Kevin control team and that's what it says on my sign. But at the end of the day if a top down... you know the franchise or parent company and all of the things are driven from the top and none of the agents own anything in the business it's not really an agent centric business. You can call it what you want but when we were there we certainly espoused that. I'm sure your wife did as well and it was a moniker and a message that was well-received in the market. I agree with you it was highly disruptive right. We saw them open a tremendous amount of market centers and they're a great company. But I think that what's going to become clear and it's already clear is they're not really age centric right. People that just went to family reunion got to hear a three hour speech where Gary Keller told his vision of the world and what he's doing that wasn't based on Agent decisions. It's not an agent owned business and again it's a great company. There's nothing wrong with that but if you're under that flag and you buy into that just know you're not an agent centric business. Gary Keller and others are making decisions for you and you get to live under the decisions that they make right? He announced they are a technology company I think. Up till that point in family reunion the vast majority of the agents thought they were working for a real estate company. They also had a focus on consulting and coaching and training. Well they were told they're working for a technology company. The EXP realty is not confused. The founder of our company is not confused. We're a real estate company so I think the acceleration of the disruption is going to occur because many many many agents especially in that franchise system are going to realize that they don't want to run their real estate practice in a company that's confused about what they do and it is heading down the path of being a technology company and they want to do that the go work for Amazon right? That's a technology company. Or work for Google. With my real estate practice I know with yours, we didn't go seeking a technology company to hang our license with. We want a place that we can grow. Sean from your perspective you're a productivity coach. You look at sort of the next evolution you talked about it being the eruption right in the market. What was your thought as an independent broker right. Your wife was a team leader you were a productivity coach out there in the marketplace. You had a great launch of your independent brokerage. Walk me through what the decision was to say you know what maybe we need to make a change and become powered by the EXP as an independent broker. SEAN: Well we had obviously heard of the EXP. This is how it happened so often the number of large teams here in our area moved over to it and that really made us take a hard look at people I respect who are doing a lot of business success are joining EXP. We need to look at it and the more we got into it it's satisfied at the surface two things we really wanted to do which was give our agents the best chance to do business and our industry is being squeezed by technology. If you're not using the best tools you're going to get the hot new EXP brings phenomenal technology to the forefront for the agents to use. So that's what opens in a door. But after that once we really started exploring the revenue share is a model that creates a new stream of income for agents that doesn't exist in any of the other large brokerages. And then the really important part of this the part that it takes time sometimes to really get an agent to see it but it's the ownership.. You know you said that the agent centered model was really agent centric and you're putting a very very fine point on that. It's something that I hadn't thought about when when they came along and disrupted with it came a lot with the agency model, it was with the look backwards. It meant the brokers aren't going to make all the money now. Out of the real estate transaction but it didn't really put the agent in control of the business and certainly didn't give you a reason to cheer and work with the help of their agents. Were as here anybody in the EXP world does better by definition we do better. We looked at that and said this is going to change how it's being done. It's coming through as a force and either we're going to get involved and be a part of this or I think we're going to get it right. KEVIN: And those are points that as an outsider right you said something that's important for listeners to hear. And I'll repeat a couple of the points. One is you knew about the EXP but until you dug into it you maybe didn't know anything other than the observation that in the Kellems parlance cappers and Magas and big teams are moving and other people outside of even the franchise systems are moving and it wasn't until you dug in that you start to see about that. I've had every independent broker I had come on and I'll ask you the same question from a competitive landscape standpoint because we have a number of independent brokers that are like this podcast interview. How concerned were you and your wife as a former team leader about email to recruit as an independent against the value proposition. SEAN: Once we got into it. One of the primary questions I asked her and my wife she was a teenager like you. That's a professional recruiter. I said Can you recruit against this. She said no what they're offering agents I can't recruit against. That was a big eye opener. KEVIN: What's interesting now and we have example after example of this I'm not going to be a number of episodes that people ability to listen to and Sherry Elliott is one of them that they'll see if they want to search for it and look for it was a mega agent with a team from Keller Williams she's in Flower Mount outside of Dallas and she has huge success with it right. She was a very very high producing successful agent and when she found the value proposition I think she was the 14th agent in Dallas. We have 800 agents in Dallas now. So if you're listening to that and you're in a market like Sean's market in San Diego there aren't 800 agents there yet but certainly it's pretty easy to connect the dots now in Sherri's case, she's built a revenue share business that's in the mid six figures and growing in less than two years. The thing that blew me away when I heard this quote is She takes 5 % of her commission and buys EXP stock and she's been doing that since month 1 when she joined and she gets it at a discount that's offered in terms of the value proposition you get as the EXP agent buy her 20% of the market. This is so strategic and most agents are like well that sounds interesting right? I've had agents tell me this. Well let me tell you what it's done for her. And then we ask you how interesting it is after less than two years. She just announced that without paying attention to it just automatically diverting the 5 %. And here's the reality most agents wouldn't even save that 5 %. Thats is the Achilles heel of real estate. We're all busy and we don't save what we should be saving. She has seven hundred thousand dollars in her equity account in the EXP stock in less than two years. So I would ask anybody for a franchise system either the one we just discussed or another one with a balloon or where you are independent have you accumulated seven hundred thousand dollars in equity in two years. The answer is no. If you don't like that figure you're like oh that's an aberration. I was in a lunch and learn in Austin yesterday another agent less than two years here in Austin. Not nearly the producer at Sheri as you and I have a big team she said. I have a one hundred fifty five thousand dollars in equity in my account less in two years so I consider that the big game changer. If you're a franchise system the system is not set up to provide you with equity. That's certainly why Shawn were you and your wife look at this and they're like you want to and your passion about accepting your messaging changing the lives of agents. You want to help people create wealth. And I think that you're new enough to EXP that frankly your job probably drop when I just recited those 2 numbers. But those are one of hundreds of them now. And so the game changer in the industry that I expect will happen is there's plenty of people now just like you and your wife will be on in another couple of years they're going to be able to show the actual numbers. We got plenty of the show the numbers now. But now imagine recruits looking out and going well I'm in this franchise system. I'm not sure oh well why don't you go talk to Sean why don't go talk to Sherri. Why don't you go talk to Chrissy. Why don't you talk to whoever you want to Pat Hays in San Antonio and you have demonstrable numbers where people can go well this is what my life looked like when I was in the franchise system. This is what it looks like now. You're at a decision point. We're not right for everybody but if you like your net worth and your streams of income to look like mine I don't know how you do it where you are. And that is frankly... the technology makes it happen but that's the game changer. There is no other wealth creation business and Gene Frederick and I met with somebody who is been on the Hall of Fame in Inman and she made the comment she said I teach Wealth to Real Estate and Mortgage Professionals in my opinion. This is the only value proposition meaning EXP realty that I would ever endorse.. ever.. as a wealth creation vehicle because that is frankly my frustration of trying to teach real estate professionals how to build wealth. There hasn't ever been a model that allows them to do it. SEAN: Completely agree. I think from an independent brokerage model. Just the just the EXP alone in real estate is enough that agents should be joining the between the technology and the fun and I didn't even mention the support on the back it mean to have people standing behind a desk in the virtual world for technology for Broker questions for agents services for accounting. You can't even get that in a lot of large agencies. So just those tools the alone makers come aboard support your real estate business. Then you start realizing what you can do with revenue share or what you can do with the ownership. I don't want to recruit agents. That's great. You're a phenomenal Real Estate Agent. Be it. Take 5 %. What most companies would charge as a franchise fee. Take that money and invest it yourself and grow with the company. Otherwise... we have a great agent on here named Mary Maloney who is part of a large group that came to EXP and she was doing a luncheon and she got up in front of a bunch of agents and said I don't want to die on a listing appointment. I want to be able to retire at some point. And that's the problem. Before DXP when you stopped showing homes you stopped making money. This is an actual retirement equity building company you could be a part of. There's nothing like it. KEVIN: Absolutely I would agree with you. So if somebody is an agent or a team leader which is the kind of people as a productivity coach you work with. I mean what would your advice be if you were a friend of yours and you knew them whether they were in the previous franchise system or not. What would you advise them to do. In other words they're seeing their peers moving what's the right steps as far as due diligence. KEVIN: Well the first step is if you see people you respect moving check the time to explore. Don't close your mind. I would then come to one of the luncheons or the classes where we're laying out what this is about. Because when you first hear of it there's so many levels and layers it takes 10 or 15 minutes even get it all into agents. We've met with every one of them walked away saying my mind's exploded. I have to go do research. That's the next step. Now you're going to want to go do your own research. That's great. We just listened to Jason Guessings CEO said "I don't want any agent come aboard and so they're absolutely ready". And this is such a new model and so such a vastly improved model but I really think it needs to go and wrap your head around it. It almost sounds too good to be true. The first time you tell them what's happened. KEVIN: And that's a good point. So for agents that are potentially or even if you're an independent broker or a team lead for a team the more complicated your business right a solo agent can get introduced to EXP. Talk to whoever introduced you to the EXP or as Sean said go get in touch with somebody that you're peers maybe you're at a franchise system you saw somebody you respect completely lets join the EXP you can certainly reach out to them and ask them about it regardless of who introduces you to the EXP. One of the great things Shawn said about the agent centric agent owned culture is anybody in the company from Gene Frederick to myself to Sean to whomever will be happy to help you with your due diligence. Doesn't matter who introduced you to you EXP that so you'll be involved with from a revenue share standpoint right there the ones that made the entree and got you involved. But don't ever confuse the fact that you can't say look hey I want to talk to Sean. I want to talk to Kevin I want to talk to Pat Hays in San Antonio you'll listen to some of these interviews. At the end of every interview is contact information we want you to be able to reach out and get the right information. The market is getting more abuzz with misinformation misdirection from some of the franchise systems. We want you to do it best the best available facts we want you to make the right decision. It's not a perfect fit for everybody. So in order to do that whomever introduced you EXP if you have a medium to highly complicated business let's say you happen to have a team and you're doing a fair amount of business it's mission critical. You do it right. You may want to talk with somebody else. It's a rainmaker. It could be Sherry Elliott and Dallas you could be Brent Gove in the Sacramento or in Northern California. We will get you in touch with the right people. Just ask whomever introduced you to EXP to make an entree to somebody that is a peer of yours or somebody that's taking the path before you. You're an independent broker we have plenty of independent brokers that are available to tell you about how they converted their business and best practices for a powered by EXP solution. Now if you're a franchise expansion team leader and you're in 5 10 markets and we're starting to see a lot of contact from them we want to get you in touch with the Gene Frederick so the world or myself that we can bring the sea level executive team in so we can help you understand because at that level you're like a C level executive yourself running a big business. We expect a lot of them to convert in the next six to 12 months based on market conditions. If you don't take a quick pass. I have somebody who's a Harvard educated guy who has a seven market expansion team. The comment was well he's going to go look online and get some information and I told the CEO of this company he's a smart guy. I said What would you venture capitalist tell you if you said him I'm going to move my multi million dollar business and I'm going to do a little research online. He laughed and said I know I've got to get him in touch with Gene. SEAN: I am a Princeton graduate I'm not surprised the Harvard Graduate doesn't figure it out. You do have to do your your due diligence. This is your career and I've been amazed by the number of people that I've been able to reach out to like you who will take the time and say here's how it works. Here's why it works no matter what level you are. Like you said whether you're a single agent or you're running a 150 transaction huge company there's somebody EXP who's been at your level and who made the move and it would explain why it benefited. KEVIN: And that's something that's not apparent from the outside. Right?. People are thinking well I can look at a video other I'll do a google search and I'll see a video of Gene Frederick they'll look at the link and they show notes for this episode and see the seven minute intro video just know that whether you're an agent a team lead for a team and expansion leader or you're an independent broker. We've already taken plenty of people through the due diligence. We're going to help you understand whether it's a good fit for you then that's ultimately your decision. But as Sean mentioned here's the reality. There are plenty of people to help. It doesn't matter how you came into the EXP. We're going to respect the fact that somebody introduced the opportunity to you and we're going to offer you... because we're all shareholders and that's different than a franchise system that's different than if we're individually owned and operated a location where they're almost islands. So I just know that that's the case so Sean before we let you go any final thoughts before we have you get your contact information out there in case somebody wants to get in touch with you. SEAN: Just this one I've been to a lot of different conventions for a lot of companies including realty brokerages and when they announce an expansion they announce how many new agents they've brought on every one cheers. Think that's great they look like they're a part of the team. I can't wait to go to our convention. And when they announced the latest aging count or the expansion going on you're not just cheering because it's great news you're cheering because it benefited you directly. You're an owner of the company that's getting bigger. That's a change. KEVIN: I agree completely. So if someone wants to get a hold of you Shawn how would they reach you. SEAN: They can reach me by phone call or text. 619 993 9888. Or they can email me Sean@thriveestate.com KEVIN: Perfect Sean thank you so much for coming on the show. SEAN: Absolutely. Kevin It was a pleasure. Thank you.

Interview – Julie Nelson In today’s episode we have Julie Nelson, who has been in the real estate business in Austin, Texas for 18 plus years. Julie started out in a small brokerage then transferred to Keller Williams, where she also served as the Director of Crew Development. After resetting her business and life, Julie transitioned to eXp Realty. Today, Julie is a realtor, trainer, coach, industry author and career strategist who coaches agents for success. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   In this episode Julie’s experience with eXp Realty Culture and mentality at eXp Realty Agents are shareholders Customer service set up Lead generation systems eXp Realty is currently bringing in more than 250 agents per week Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Julie to inquire or ask questions. Contact Julie via email at thenelsonproject@gmail.com Find Julie’s book Success Faster on Amazon Connect with Julie as a coach at www.thenelsonproject.org Noteworthy “At eXp, the majority, hands down the majority, of agents are their producers, their cappers and I like being in that environment.” – Julie   PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION  KEVIN: Welcome to the show Julie. JULIE: Thanks Kevin. KEVIN: I'm looking forward to the conversation you and I have like some great overlapping background we both came out of the Keller Williams system and we're both at EXP realty now. Now for somebody that doesn't know you like I do in your background why don't you take a couple of minutes and give your background in real estate and what you have done. JULIE: Sounds good. 18 plus years in the business. First two was with a small brokerage with a couple friends and I moved to Keller Willimas in I think 2001. I'm dating myself here a little bit. So 16 years with Keller Williams in the last five of those I was the director of crew development at the Austin Southpaws Market Center or at least at the time was the largest Keller Williams office in the world and I oversaw the training program in that market center and left that position and kind of hit a reset in my business and my life and had to restart my business again and that's a story in itself. And then last fall I joined the XP. KEVIN: Excellent excellent. So you know for listeners that aren't as familiar with some of the terms I know you and I both do I think we probably joined Keller Williams I think it was the same year. I think it was 2001 2002 that I was working with Andy Allen near Lancaster on the team here in Austin and then I was later a team leader productivity coaching and they'll be a link obviously to your book which we'll be referencing here in a minute. You spent a lot of time advising agents on success and I know one of the things you're pretty passionate about and you have a chapter in your book on this is helping agents at Keller Williams which is a great company but there's lots of agents at different companies that are joining you EXP. People seem to have a hard time figuring out this brokerage thing don't they. JULIE: You know it's an interesting topic I think the truth is we actually all think about it and talk about it a lot. But nobody wants to have that conversation with their broker in terms of whether it's the right fit for them. I always like to say when I'm talking to an agent is the best place for an agent to run their business is simply the best place for that agent to run their business. And if somebody is re-evaluating their brokerage choice it's a possibility that the best place for them is exactly where they're at. I think agents need to hear that because folks relax a little bit around the topic to say oh OK you know what that's a good point. So then you could have just an objective look at where you're at in your business what you need what you're currently getting, what other brokerage options may offer. And then what's the right fit for you because the last thing any... Well hopefully the last thing any broker wants for an agent is for them to make a switch and then realize it's not really the best place for them to run their business. So let's help people make really sound and objective decisions around where they're choosing to hang their license and the individual's needs. That can change over the years. So for a very long time. Keller Williams was absolutely the right place for me to be running my business and creating the opportunities that I needed. But things change people change. And I started to re-evaluate. So I've been in the business for a long time. I swear I re-evaluated every year. If I was in the right place. KEVIN: And I did the same thing I've been with ReMax I've been with Marcus Millichap on the commercial side. I originally got licensed in 1986 joined Keller Williams in 2001. So I've done a lot of stuff and one of the things that I've heard Jean-Frederic talk about and I'm seeing come up more and more. I'm glad you brought up sort of the re-evaluation and things change over time because I'm hearing more and more now because we're having actual examples of it. - And I know this is going to resonate with you Julie - of agents. That doesn't matter it's not a Keller Williams story. Keller Williams is a great company it's just that in their career wherever they are they're realizing I'm not saving enough money. I have a great practice right? I'm listing and selling and working with clients. But they start looking at going I don't want to do this forever and then in a lot of the historical models KW is one of them, I did the production based or I'm going to make more money in production. I had the number three team from scratch in St. Louis but then I started looking going great. The team did 240 transactions we were number three in the market. Now what do I want to be doing 800 transactions do I want to go into mobile markets? I look at my PNL my cash flow my savings. I wasn't saving money and building wealth. And so the comment that's being made is and Daniel Beer said this on his episode if anybody wants to listen to it it's like the other buckets are empty. Right. People have production Daniel beer and his case in San Diego is that like 165 million in production. But he started looking at what kind of residual income do I have. What kind of wealth in forming equity do I have. And we're starting to see this and this is where I think you could talk about this Julie in terms of your decision process. I know it was a big deal for me. I didn't have a whole big stock portfolio and equity I can't make a comment like Sherri Elliott where she's in less than two years sitting with 700000 in equity in the EXP I stock or another agent in Austin that I just met and she was in a lunch and learned and she popped up when the Sherry Elliot comment was made. She goes I don't have a big team like Sherry and I'm at 155000 in equity and she's like I didn't have equity before. I was just an agent. I was worried that I was going to have to list and sell forever. And so when you think about because you spent a lot of time coaching agents either it's not part of the process right. We're talking about in the case of EXP a lot of these agents are building this wealth by taking 5% of their gross commission income and investing it like an insider at a 20% discount. The outside world doesn't even know that and most agents don't save any money do they. JULIE: It's a problem in our industry. An agent is as good as their next deal. So unless they've been an extremely disciplined saver flèche investor over the years the majority of agents do not have a good exit strategy. Retirement is a concept that's not well executed in our industry and that was very attractive for me with the EXP. I'm 56 years old and I don't care if you're 40 or 50 or 60 I think most of us have retirement on our mind. And I know I don't want to be selling real estate when I'm 70 years old. So it really took a look at that with the EXP is very attractive with a combination of the stock and the revenue share was very attractive to me because I've felt like I can do something with that. You know I was at Keller Williams for 16 years and five of those in a leadership position. And Profit was never a big deal for me. It never materialized. Now granted it wasn't a top priority for me but I just felt like the opportunity was limited and it was never going to truly be a solid piece of my retirement plan. KEVIN: It's not that there's anything wrong with profit share I'm vested and remove which for anybody listening means that I've spent more than three years at Kellems like Julie did or Gene-Frederick or anybody else. But the fact the matter is that as you listen to my interview with Gene we talk about this. This is what Daniel Beer just said in his interview that I did with him today where that bucket where you're paid like a regional owner off the top and then for listeners that haven't heard this before in a franchise system like KW they take the money off the top and they pay the regional owner out of that money. EXP does the same thing. And so even somebody like myself who had a fairly decent profit share and still get profit share from Keller Williams. Gene does as well. What we're realizing very quickly is this starts to look a lot more like you if you are focused on it get to act like a regional owner in a franchise system. Now the EXP is not a franchise system but the cash flow is so much more predictable from that residual income that you can build a business around it. In other words if I was at Keller Williams and I started to figure out what my profit share would be I'm sure you didn't try and do this because you're going to make the comment I did which is it's like black magic at the 21st of the month you get this payment you're like ha I don't know how that happened. They give you a calculation and report with it. But there's no predictability to it. And for people that have been in both systems the thing that we're seeing consistently in other words people that have a decent profit share check the revenue share if they're purposeful in their claims and they come over to EXP there's plenty of people I could point you to that are at 10x note it is also very predictable in other words they can look and go. I know what I'm going to make in 2017. I know what I'm going to make in 2018 and 19 just based on the number of people I'm going to have in my revenue share group. You can't do that. I can't go to Gene-Frederick and go: How much are you and Susan going to make this year and profit sharing. I've asked him that. He says I have no idea. It's so variable that I have no idea. JULIE: And he gets as you know a huge profit share check yeah I have found I'm doing the math right now and I am predicting everything that I made in profit share last year in 2017. Okay so that's after 16 years at KW. I'm predicting that within six months at EXP I will match that. So MY 2017 profit share I predict in my first six months at EXP I'll hit that number. KEVIN: That is not a typical I don't want anybody listening to this to think about it. And if you're not in a system like KW where you get profit sharing you don't have anything to base it by. But just what you should take away here is this is very very predictable and you can model it. The math is simple when you look at who comes in in revenue share and who's in your revenue share group and you can start and look at it and Daniel Beer said this perfectly because there's a lot of noise and misinformation out there he said the revenue share is not only very easy to calculate and predictable but you can also count on it because producers are the people that are coming over to EXP. You know what their production as you know what the math is. It's not like we're getting people to switch to the company and telling them to sell essential oils. This is what they do for their livelihood anyways. They're going to work with buyers and sellers. And as such because it comes off the top it's not black magic. It's not. Oh I have to line up profitability for a particular office with the production. And they're not capped. The complexity of trying to get all that and model it accurately is virtually impossible in Daniel Beer said the same thing you did which is I couldn't pay a lot of attention to it because I couldn't figure out how to make a business out of it. JULIE: Yes I had little to no control over that. And in this i feel like I how I can drive it. I'm in the driver's seat. KEVIN: And that's a great point. And you know there are great places and you and I come from probably the best franchise system out there. Keller Williams you and I both get profit share from there. And this is just a inflection point in the brokerage business in my opinion. We're at a major major inflection point. The agents at EXP are in the same alignment. Their equity holders and it really is an agent centric business. I mean I look back at my very first family reunnion I went to and I heard that term agent centric and then I went into leadership and I ran some market centers in South Florida and did all that. And now being outside of it and watching how things line up at EXP I realize that we coined a term there and certainly Gary would aptly say you can do your brand you're the brand build your business build your database etc. But when you look at the execution of the business it was not an agent centric business. They allowed agent branding. But EXP truly is I mean the best examples on my guests on the podcast people will say I'll get on the phone with anybody. I'm a shareholder in this company. Doesn't matter who they were exposed to EXP and I know you Julie you think the same way where somebody could be sitting in Boston Massachusetts and you're going to be the perfect person for them to talk to. Maybe they're coming out of a franchise system like you and I did. And they need to hear from you or they knew you. Maybe they took a class from you and they want to hear your words. Maybe they will listen to the podcast. It doesn't matter if they're going to be in your revenue share group. The culture of this company is something amazing that people don't see from the outside they might experience it. If somebody introduces them to the EXPE and then all of a sudden they're thinking wow the agents really are driving this thing all in the same direction because they're all shareholders. JULIE: Yeah I've experienced that on both sides so I've had other agents and readers around the country that have been super responsive to helping me get on my feet or just to answer questions. I've had the opportunity to do that for quite a few people myself so there really is this you really do feel like an equity owner in the company. It's a mentality I've been extremely pleased and impressed with the customer service side of how easy EXP is set up with the cloud and your ability to go online. I have a question just even a simple question it might be a question on a transaction it might be a broker question. It could be an accounting question. A basic kind of administrative questions and I can jump online in the cloud and nine times out of ten I actually have my question answered with a real live person under five minutes. It's kind of like you can go into any office whether it's here Banker or your own brokerage and you had an accounting question saying go to that office and you knock on the door. You just hope that they're there. Or you might send them an email and you're crossing your fingers that you'll get a quick response and answer to your question. And that's normal business for the majority of the business world. KEVIN: Absolutely. And that for agents especially if you're doing transactions and you're going to get an adjustment on a closing and all of a sudden you realize the night before something's got to get change. Like you said you hope to God you can go in the morning to accounting and get them to do it. Well because we operate multiple time zones at EXP. Like you said you show up in the cloud. Somebody is going to help get that thing fixed you know and because agents are in all different time zones. There's pretty much somebody there for an extended period of time and tech support for a lot of agents is a big deal you and I are both fairly tech savvy now. Lots of agents especially agents that are listening to this or not. I can tell you the number of times not just in the cloud but in workplace which is the collaboration environment that EXP is rolled out to support the cloud and it is a completely different platform. But it's very very interesting to watch especially with the lead generation systems. Obviously people are rolling out Cavey core now in 2018. They are they want to set up conversion. They'll come in and say I'm not tech savvy. I need help with this. I'm trying to figure out how to do this this and this and in XP agent will chime in in the comment and say hey I'm in a different state. Doesn't matter. I got this wired. I can probably get you on the phone for 15 minutes and tell you exactly how to do this. That does not happen in a franchise system or offices independently operated certainly doesn't happen in a small brokerage or an independent where you don't have that wealth of knowledge and experience across the country and that's in addition to the great customer service that the company offers. And that's just the culture of the agents. They're like hey you know what you might be in Alabama. But I can get you on the phone and get your conversion site up and running in a 15 minute call with you. JULIE: Yeah. And there are thousands of examples of that online. So it's a real community. It's very helpful. It's interesting because sometimes you think if you don't have experience with something cloud based like this you might think on the surface before for experience. You might think that it may be an impersonal system. It's exactly the opposite. There's so much engagement there's so much easy access. And it's a community where everybody is helping everybody and whether that's in just in Austin the Austin group is so helpful in itself. And then there's Texas group and then there's just access to everybody nationally. It's pretty impressive. I've been very pleased. KEVIN: The one thing I would tell for people listening and it doesn't matter for an independent you're at a big franchise system or you're in some regional brokerage. The level of collaboration right because the franchises tackle this this way right. They've got top producers and people and certainly Julia you would fall into this category where when you are doing what you're doing in productivity coaching there will be an event and they would have you up there and people that traveled to that event would get to experience you or if they're in your market center you would be heavily visible and the agents would be able to catch you and hear you and learn from you. Well in the EXP model we have icon agents we've got other agents and the level of masterminding across the country that happens every day and every week blows away one event or two events per year and that's something that I think when I looked at this when Gene first approached me a couple years ago I didn't get that that was going to happen when I joined with Gene last year it was really at the point where the company got critical mass right. I think that you know there were 400 agents when you first talked to me. He likes to kid me inside me that I'm a real slow decision maker and learner and I didn't join. There were about 35 agents when we reengaged. We just passed 8500 agents were we going to be 10000 agents. So now imagine my point. You're in a company with 10000 agents predominantly you know in your world if you're a franchise there are cappers or better there are big producers the kind agents have a wealth of knowledge. Not only are there sharing within themselves but part of what they're doing is they're giving back to all agents. So your ability to plug in. I know this is preaching to the choir with you but I'm sure I want to get your opinion on this. I've never seen the level of high level skill knowledge and experience being shared every day and every week have you? JULIE: No and I think in my I'm now part of my read and this is I don't know the exact statistics but I'll just make the point is that at EXP something like 80 percent of the agents are producing so in Real Estate there are a lot of agents out there that actually don't sell any real estate. They're not producing. I didn't experience that before. Managers of real estate offices. They analyze their agent count, production who's producing who's not because that's how they have to run a business and they have to be profitable. At EXP the majority hands down the majority of ... and are producers their cappers and I like being in that environment. KEVIN: Absolutely. The number that I heard I think Jason Guessings shared this last summer haven't seen it since but this is right before EXP got on that the number was like eighty eight or nine percent. There's plenty of people like myself or Gene who don't list and sell anymore. We're helping mentor and coach and bring people and we're helping the business expand and we're attracting agents. So we count in that you know call it 12% that are not producing this will ring true to you because we're in Austin we're in central Texas you and I see each other because we're also there at the face to face lunch and learns whenever we can because we're supporting from a cultural standpoint being there regardless of whether we have somebody we attracted at an event. That's the model right if you're listening to this whoever introduce you to EXP ask them to invite you to a EXP explain lunch and learn. You'll see people like Julie and I everywhere in the country there that can share our knowledge help you in the due diligence process. Let's go to Austin right everybody knows we've been talking about KW mostly because we both come from there the large office that you were with is the big office right. Highest agent scout in Austin. Production. You know the franchise recently touted the fact that they're number one in a lot of metrics. Gene asked me to poll the numbers and I went and did some research work with some of my title company contacts. We polled the most recent numbers that were available. That was Q3 of 2017. Number one office is the Southwest market center for Keller Williams right people that are listening this week. Well that makes sense. They've been there for more than 25 years right. That's where it all started. And there a huge office now if you look at it from production. I think that I don't know what the exact age account is but it's more than 800 agents and EXP is at 315 agents. It was not in Q3 it was probably 270 or so the number one office is absolutely colorway homes in the market. 800 plus agents. Number two is the XP in production that's an aging count that came in less than two years. So the easiest way to connect the dots for anybody listening if this isn't crystal clear to you is you have to have high producing agents. Everybody's in production way at that high number of 80 or 90% to make it with 300 agents and I had this just come up in an EXP explain where somebody said well but you don't have this many agents. Right. The big franchise system just talked about having way more than 150000 agents and you guys have eight. How is this going to play out. I said well let's just look at Austin 315 agents. There probably were 270. They're number two in the market. 800 agents they have production at number one. But if you start looking at the fact that in Dallas two years ago we had 14 agents Sherry Elliott was the fourteenth agent. They now have 800 agents. You start looking at this happening all over the country. You can close the gap on production with highly producing agents and that's who's being attracted to Keller Williams. Right? But then they stay there for a while and then they look at the next step and I'm going to bring it full circle back to your career piece. Now they're looking at I don't want to be in production so that segment not just at Keller Williams but across the board independents other franchises now go - I need to figure out what this business model is all about-. Those are the people that are moving right we're not attracting any new agents in the parlance of where we came from cappers or better. So Julie if somebody is listening to this and you can kind of describe your due diligence process. They've been introduced to EXP. I always tell them get to explain explain face to face if you've got a complicated business right. They've got a team maybe they're an expansion team and they're in multiple markets. There a major agent. They have plenty of resource. I know you mentioned that you went through the process of talking to people both before you came in after you've witnessed this and probably had people that joined that did this know how powerful do you think it is that you can get senior people in terms of production and experience in EXP regardless of how you were introduced to it. JULIE: I'm a cautious business person meaning a bit of an over thinker. I really like detail and I will take my time with big decisions. Now some folks they may watch a Gene Frederick video and they are all in and then they're signing up the same day and that's awesome. My wiring is a little different. And so I really needed to take my time. I spoke with numerous people I pulled together a spreadsheet so that I could manage my transition really smoothly. I had phase 1 phase 2 phase 3 phase 4 of making it all happen because I didn't want to forget any of my detail and I had people around the country helping me with helping me be my over thinker self just to manage the process. It was about all its work to change brokers. I had that vision and I was really excited for the vision so Christy Davidson helped me out quite a bit. The Lewises helped me out. There were just a number of people that I tapped into and it said Okay help me. Help me understand this help me put my pieces together here. Help me with this plan. You know I like things now. It was about three or four weeks really just kind of planning and putting the pieces in place so that the day that I made the switch I really fell quite organized. It was a smooth process. So for the owner thinkers out there we can help you. KEVIN: Well absolutely. Before we wrap up Julie is going to give her contact information and what she's describing is not unusual right if that's your behavioral style and you want to do detail due diligence or your business is mission critical right. You and your team sell a lot of property and you have a lot of pendings and a complicated business. Doesn't matter who introduced you to EXP ask them to tap into the network. You can go to anybody on any of these interviews or anybody within the company and say I really liked to talk to somebody who is in a similar situation to me and that person or whoever they can reach within the company. And this is the culture of the company. They will take the call. You can text them or e-mail them and they will help you through the process. We're all shareholders. We all want to make sure you make a good decision. The EXP is not a perfect fit for everybody as Julie said sometimes people make the decision not now or not the right thing for me or I decide not to do it and we're okay with that. We have plenty of people in the company at this point while we're recording this is bringing in more than 250 agents nationwide per week. So we've got plenty of people that are interested. We want great agents to make a good decision. We realize it's not a fit for everybody but we want more than anything is for you to get real due diligence information. We don't want you. And that's why Gene and I started this podcast we want you to hear in agent's own words how it should work so that you're not hearing something that secondhand or god forbid a thousand comments on a Facebook post where people are going between a franchise and EXP at the end of it you've heard 500 different opinions and you're just confused right you're like well I don't know what to believe anymore. And so the best practices get plugged in get great advice real advice from people that have made the change. Some of them can say OK here's where I came from. Here's what I did and here's what I know now that I've been here and there's plenty of people I'm sure you did that as part of your process and you're phasing. JULIE: Yeah. So I mean for anybody listening to this podcast if you've been in one of my classes if they've seen me speak on stage at some point if we're connected some way online and your you're thinking about this or you're considering the EXP just call me. Shoot me an email. Shoot me a Facebook message and let's chat. I'm getting messages like that almost every day. I will help you have an objective conversation about making that decision. KEVIN: I want to tie this down because there's got to be somebody listening to this to say oh my god I'm happy with my franchise I'm happy in my business. I'm not a disgruntled and upset. You were there. That was your position when you first started your diligence. Don't let that stop you from... JULIE: I like to say I wasn't running away from something so my move was not an anti move. I wasn't running away from something I was moving towards a new opportunity and our industry changes. It evolves it changes and you have to pay attention and figure out where do you want to be. What works for you and what is the best fit for you. Initially when I was analyzing kind of my five and 10 year plan and trying to figure out some solutions for my business and my personal finances and really taking a look at that I have a coach and I asked her I said this is everything I'm trying to figure out. I need a roadmap. And initially I said my intention is to stay at KW okay so will you help me figure it out? And she said I'll help you figure it out. But if you're open to this kind of removing your blinders a little bit so we can really objectively analyze your options. That's it that's fair. Was that fair enough. So so it really initially was my intention to stay stay where it was. But as I allowed myself to be objective and look at my choices the EXP opportunity and the solutions it provided for me and my business and my personal life became so clear really fast and I tried to poke holes in it because I didn't want to make a mistake. I really tried to poke holes in it. I even challenged my coach said am I making a good decision here. You just play devil's advocate with me and help me be extremely sure and confident with what I'm doing. And it passed all of those tests. KEVIN: No and that's a great point. So I want to come back to talking about your book because before we wrap up I think this is a valuable tool. Whether you're looking to make a change or anything like that this has nothing to do with that Julie's book is something I would highly recommend. I want you to be able to at least plug it will have a link in the show notes to it as well. JULIE: Thanks. One day I did when I left my leadership position is I felt like I had so much information and knowledge in my head. As far as helping agents and particularly what I call new and emerging agents but especially this group and I was in this group of what I call relaunching agents. So maybe agents I don't care if they're three years and or 13 years and for one reason or another they're in a position where they're kind of re launching their business. In my case I had been in leadership and was moving back into production. So I was really launching my business. Sometimes it's an agent who just isn't particularly happy with how their business is running or the money that they're making. And the beauty of that is they can actually start over. You could just start over today in this business. So call that relaunching. So I wrote this book it's called Success Faster. Quickly launch or relaunch a real estate career. It's on Amazon so you type in Julie Nelson Success Faster it'll pop up on Amazon and is getting some really good reviews it's helping a lot of people. And that's my goal. It's just for content to help people that help realtors be more successful and really enjoy their businesses. There's an entire chapter in the book on evaluating broker choice. So someone who has a brand new agent or somebody who is in the process of getting their real estate license nobody has taught them what options are out there and how to make an objective analysis. So we take a look at that and then part of the chapter is for somebody who is mid career and reassessing their broker choice. So that's the book Success Faster. KEVIN: Excellent. And again I would highly recommend it for anybody regardless of where they are in their career. There's one in there for you regardless of where you are on your 10 year in the business. Julie if somebody is listen to this what's the best contact information for you. JULIE: I'm really easy to find online. SO if you can't find me need to try just a little harder. But as Julie Nelson you can find me on Facebook and my e-mail is TheNelsonProject@gmail.com or you can find me on Facebook if you type in Julie Nelson Austin Texas or Julie Nelson EXP Realty. KEVIN: Excellent. Julie thank you so much for coming on the show. JULIE: Of course. My pleasure.

Interview – Pat Hays In today’s episode we have Pat Hays. Pat started out in medical sales prior to purchasing a senior home care franchise. After selling his franchise, he found himself in a boutique brokerage firm in San Antonio, Texas before discovering a life changing opportunity at eXp Realty. In this episode, Pat shares how he was introduced to eXp Realty. We hear about his experience and how he created a revenue sharing organization of about 685 spanning 32 states and Canada in just 26 months. Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.   In this episode Why Pat ultimately chose eXp over Keller Williams Who the best prospects for eXp are What is revenue sharing and why it is a sustainable model How eXp is different from any other company The perks at eXp including stock ownership, revenue sharing and free conversion Information about resources to learn more about eXp including Lunch and Learns, weekly live webinars and prerecorded videos Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or one of the contacts below to inquire or ask questions. If you are seeking further information, eXp has Lunch and Learn opportunities, weekly live webinars and other resources such as prerecorded videos that can be sent to you. Contact Pat Hays, call or text 210-693-8711 Contact Gene Frederick, text 703-338-1515 Tweetables “I've been a part of a lot of Fortune 500 medical companies and owned my own business. I've sold my own business and truly this is something that I've never seen before.” – Pat Hays “I was blown away with the the model with the revenue share and stock ownership and with the training and the lead generation tools that he provided.” – Pat Hays   PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION KEVIN: Hey Pat welcome to the show. PAT: Good morning! Thanks for having me. KEVIN: I'm excited to have our conversation. You know I always like to dig in and find out why people have joined eXp Realty before we get into some of the specifics about that. Why don't you for listeners who aren't familiar with you get a little of your background in sort of what led up to your decision to decide to join the realty. PAT: Sure yeah. So I've got a pretty life changing story so I've had my license in San Antonio from San Antonio, Texas had my license since the end of 2007 and actually got my license to do farm and ranch with a big broker based out of Hondo, Texas. I was doing farm and ranch part time I was doing medical sales full time in San Antonio. You know I did the whole traditional you know go to college and get a degree and get out of college and you know go get a good job in corporate America. So I did that for about five and a half years. And I really loved I was actually doing medical sales really love medical sales. You know a great income from it you know learning a lot and many a lot of great people and doctors all around San Antonio. You know. But I was just kind of grinding. I was making great money but you know really working hard, 60 70 80 hours a week, and you know was kind of getting burned out of the whole corporate America rat race if you will and so I was looking to find a way to exit corporate America. And I actually found a way that the.. I'd say in 2010. I was able to actually exit corporate America and by Senior Home Care franchise. My dad was the CFO of a large senior home care franchise in San Antonio and I had the opportunity to buy an underperforming office from the corporate office and turned it into a franchise owned office which I owned and I did that for an investment for about three and a half years. So I took it from a two hundred twenty five thousand dollars in annual revenue to about a 1.3 million dollars in about three and a half years and ended up selling it in wanting to move back to San Antonio and get back into real estate on the residential side and so I did so and also alongside of doing that in real estate I actually was an investor in a startup digital media company which in about six months I lost over 300,000 dollars in that investment. So I had to make real estate work and I didn't want to join a big you know... KW office, Century 21 office, Remax office anything like that I wanted to start small and my business partner at the time with that digital media company actually introduced me to some brokers in San Antonio that were wanting to kind of start growing their boutique brokerage firm and so it was a great fit. And so I did so joined forces with them and really found my passion and real estate help and you know what consumers are with the largest purchase of their life which is their home. So my first year in real estate I did 3.2 million dollars. You know again my passion wanted to start a team. My second year I started that team. We did 2.5 million in production, 61 transactions and you know was really wanting to take it to the next level having a lot of fun. And I got a life changing phone call by Scott Lewis my mentor and sponsor in San Antonio. One December Monday afternoon wanting to share EXP with me and at the time I wasn't looking to make a change. I was very happy I was comfortable and very loyal and wasn't really wanting to make a change. He called me and asked that I take a look at this business model and I did so two hours after I got the life changing phone call I needed to find another brokerage firm and I took a look at that business model and I was blown away. I was blown away with the opportunity for one. I was blown away with you know the model with the revenue share with a stock ownership and with the training and the lead generation tools that he provided. And so I actually called up Scott the next day and said hey listen you know on needing to make a change wanting to make a change. And I really like what I see. You know let's talk and so we ended up talking. And whenever I met Scott Lewis there was actually two other gentlemen there the name of Gene Frederick and Rob Flic at that table and so I ended up you know sitting down my dad that was with me. He's recently retired and my CFO of my real estate business and we went there and wanted to learn a little bit more about the eXp. And I was blown away by for one the eXp business model. For two what you know Gene Frederick and Rob Flic had done at a previous company. And you know why they came to eXp was just mind blowing. So I really wanted to listen and a 45 minute meeting turned into several hours and I was blown away with the numbers and with what they were wanting to do the eXp in the next several years and so I wanted to join forces with them and so I did that you know guys it got my attention. You know let's do this and after two hours after I left that meeting I got a call from a broker in San Antonio wanting to talk to me about kind of what he can do with me and for my team. And so we ended our talk and I said hey you know what I'm looking to make a change I'm going to be making a change probably over the eXp Realty and he said "hey listen give me at least one hour tomorrow. I want to talk to you about kind of what I can do and how I can help you with you and your team" so I said OK you know what I respect that. I'm open mind, I'll definitely listen to you I'm listening to eXp, I'll definitely listen to what you have to say in that company was known as KW. KW is a great company and I had the opportunity to listen to that broker and to kind of make a long story short you know he was.. you know wanting to give me a lot of perks to come over to KW And so at the end of the conversation I was really leaning still towards the eXp not only for myself but for my teammates and their fans. I knew I needed to make a right decision to come over the eXp and really had my mind set on that and at the end of the conversation with that broker there at KW and I said hey listen you know can you answer these three questions. He said What do you got? I said for one can you give me revenue share. Not profit share he said "no I can't do that. You know that's not a business model". I said okay can you give me stock ownership and he said "no you know we're not publicly traded I can't do that". I said OK great. Can you give me conversion for free to help me generate massive amounts of buyer and seller leads from my team. He said no again you know that's not our business model I can't do that it's very expensive. I said OK you know what you just have to make my decision you know I'm going to eXp. And he literally lift me he said man you're going to go. And I said you know what it's not about really doing good, it's about providing and having the best brokerage firm and truly you know why I'm so blessed to be a part of eXp. And I said you know this is... I can offer this to other agents you know we're truly the first agent own cloud based brokerage firm. You know that I can offer all these perks to you know these other agents all across the country and so fast forward to eXp, 26 months I've been here eXp. Super blessed super excited about the opportunity some success that I've had and I personally introduced eXp to 26 agents out of those 26 agents. I've built a revenue shore organization of about 685 spanning 32 states and Canada in the last 26 months so you know this is only the beginning. I'm super excited about this opportunity super blessed to be a part and be in business with a lot of legends in the industry like our own Gene Frederick and it's truly a game changer and you know I'm looking forward to a growing eXp alongside of a lot of other rock stars. KEVIN: Fantastic and then that's a great overview and for listeners I want to come back and touch on some things and get back to talk a little bit more about it. Because you're out there now talking about eXp you're traveling you're actually on the road today in Raleigh. You made a comment that you said you weren't looking to make a change when you were approached and you were happy.I can tell you that when Gene and I talk to just about everybody, that is the default position and not that we think that it's kind of like it's not like a retail store when you go in and somebody says can I help you say I'm just looking. Now we get it the best prospects that ultimately end up joining eXp are the ones that say just what Pat did. I'm happy I'm not looking to make a change. And then they become intrigued. I had a broker that was a good friend of mine. I was actually because I do a management consulting. It was a client of mine and I asked him to look at eXp for the purpose of the fact that I knew he was typically acquiring brokers and he would know of candidates and I said Have you passed on that you think we should talk to he said well send me some information. I sent him a couple of videos and some other information and he called me on Monday and said this is probably going to blow you away but I think that we're going to convert our brokerage to eXp. He was so far from a prospect right I respected the fact that we were a longtime client relationship and I wasn't trying to necessarily do that. I wanted to get his take on it as do I should talk to and that's fairly typical. Pat's story is typical and then the other thing I want to touch on because you talked about revenue share and I agree with you. Gene Frederick and I come from KW We were both in leadership. We both were team leaders. You know he had involvement as a regional owner you know for those of you listening regardless of what franchise system you're in - here's great places to work in real estate. You have to make your personal decision where you want to be. But when Pat's talking about how many states would you say it was 32 or 37?. PAT: That's right. Yes I'm actually in 32 states and Canada. KEVIN: Ok so 32 states and Canada. So what Pat has built as a business. And I want to translate that for listeners that are in a franchise system is he's getting paid like a regional owner would out of a franchise system. So if you're not familiar with let's say you're an agent and you're not familiar with how this works in a big franchise system the regional owners have purchased typically for millions and millions of dollars a region and the franchise royalties and or other compensation gets paid off the top and they get paid based on Agent count. In other words if there's a thousand agents in their region they get paid off the top. And essentially if I want to give it a different term other than the regional income stream I would call a revenue share right because it's coming off the top. It may be royalty but let's not get stuck on what it's called. So and I bring that up for a couple of points and I know Pat I'm just preaching to the choir with you because you get this. Don't ever let anybody tell you that revenue sharing is not a sustainable model. If you're sitting in a franchise system and your team leader or a managing broker is telling you that revenue share will never work. Ask them how do the regional owners get paid in my region. And they're going to have to essentially described your revenue share. And so what Pat has created in the span of less than two years or actually a little over two years at this point right. Is a almost 700 agent region in Canada and the United States. And I would imagine your region is growing pretty quickly. How many people are you adding on a monthly basis. PAT: You know what...? Yeah that's a great question. It's rolling honestly by about a 130 agents now per month. Just like anything you know I built a foundation. But you know what. It's been a lot of fun. Yes it's been hard work. It's not easy but you know I do a lot of presentations all across the country just like I'm getting ready to do another lunch alone today here in Raleigh with my leader here. It's truly made in real estate fun again. You know I was grinding for two years at that boutique brokerage firm on that hamster wheel as I call it just kind of tunnel vision just wanting to grow grow grow grow grow. And I was only as good as my last sale. And you know I didn't have an exit strategy I didn't even really know what an exit strategy was. Whenever Scott Lewis sat down with means that Pat you know you're two years into this role say business you know you're doing some good things you know you put up some good numbers for your second year in the industry you know 12 and a half million dollars in volume. What is your true exit strategy and I said you know Scott I don't have an exit strategy. Even know what an exit strategy is in real estate. You know I just sold my business I just invested into a startup lost a lot of money. You know I'm not looking to exit real estate that I'm looking to keep on growing. You know I'm a young guy. You know I said the only thing I could think of is you know I want to get my team's production in the next five to seven years up to 75 to 100 million dollars in production for a year so that I can afford to invest in real estate. I can afford to put money away. I can afford to slow down if I choose to. So I really wasn't looking to exit the industry said about you know take a look at this business model. I can show you how to do that in the next two to three four years alongside of your production in alongside of acquiring stock at eXp because we are a true agent owned brokerage firm. I was just blown away. So for me I'm building a massive exit strategy alongside of selling real estate. I've got a team in San Antonio. We do anywhere from about 9 to 12 million dollars a year every single year. In San Antonio in our production I'm looking to grow that as well because you know we are a brokerage firm first but you know what. You know we're a true agent owned brokerage firm that you know I can offer agents you know an exit strategy through the revenue share program the revenue share model with the agents that want to help us grow. You don't have to attract agents to the company but why wouldn't you want to attract agents to the company and grow this company that you're a shareholder of. And then another beautiful thing to is... At eXp you know you can acquire stock six different ways which I'm not a big stock guy but you know what the stock's gone from 6 to 2 cents a share Whenever I join twenty six months to go up to over 12 dollars a share it's gone as high as seventeen dollars a share. So you know that's truly amazing you know the agent count has gone from 800 agents whenever I joined 26 months ago to surpassing over 8000 agents just a few weeks ago here at a company and so you know the growth is there in the caliber of agents that are coming on board is just truly amazing just like the other group there in San Diego, California you know Carl Whistle and his whole entire group and then he's attracted a few other big leaders out there in San Diego California bringing over a half a billion dollars in production. You know that tells you something right there. KEVIN: And that's a great point. I mean it's one of those things where you know in my manager consulting practice and we also did coaching to brokers and large rainmakers from teams. There is a coming change in the production business where you know people have a successful business you talked about a three or four that joined the deal a half a billion in production. There's plenty of people that do 10 million 20 million 30 million a year. And there's the change that we see occurring and eXp realty is driving this is there is a another business model to look at other than just more production more markets more growth just in the team and people are looking at this as a business that is in addition to their production. And so you described a couple of things and I want to go back and make sure if somebody is listening to this and they want to basically dive in on eXp realty you should go back to whoever introduced you to eXp realty, ask them to plug you in with leaders. Before we wrap up today Pat's going to give his information and Gene Frederick, myself, Mitch all of the leadership in eXp Realty is available as a resource right. Doesn't matter how you got exposed to the eXp Realty. That's right. We want to help you make a good decision. Get the due diligence so whoever got you exposed to eXp Realty can get you connected with leadership people that can get you the right due diligence materials. Now one of the steps that we see a lot of agents go through whether they're a rainmaker for a team or just an agent is they go to a lunch and learn. So Pat will you describe what they're going to typically see in other words sometimes people are a little bit apprehensive right there like well I don't have my broker to know that I'm looking because you know that could have consequences. What is the process you walk somebody through let's say somebody is listening to this and they do 20 million dollars a year. They've got a team and they want to figure out about eXp realty. PAT: Sure that's a great question. You know we do lunch and learns you know every single week in San Antonio opening Friday at Ruth's Chris. And you know anybody that's listening that's in San Antonio definitely you know can reach out to myself loved to invite you as my special guest. But you know the lunch and learns are really for like an intro to eXp if you haven't seen the model you know come check it out. We do about a 45 minute presentation or so then we kind of open it up for Q and A. There's a lot of guests there each week. There's a lot of other eXp agents as well with their guest and it's a lot of fun. You know we've got videos that we can send you to you know take a look at the business model you know on your own. Obviously everything's confidential but if you want to come out and see a live presentation you're more than welcome we've got lunch and learns you know going on all across the country and on get ready day one here again in Raleigh, North Carolina today. One of my team leaders actually did a big lunch and learn in Miami, Florida on Tuesday. You know we've got our weekly one in San Antonio every single Friday. We also have live webinars every single week as well on Tuesdays. And so you can definitely come and plug yourself in. But you know it's a lot of fun. You know this a business model. Like I said it's getting agents excited. It's a lot of fun to share this model just like I got a life changing phone call by Scott Lewis 26 months ago. You know now I'm able to reciprocate and give that life changing phone call to other agents like I did here in Raleigh, North Carolina with one of my leaders about 16 months ago. Great agent came from local banker and you know what I shared with him 16 months ago out of eXp has truly changed his life, changed him families life, changed his financial future as well too so however you want to see it if you want to see it you know privately you can definitely see it privately. We've got a resource here where we can send you some you know pre-recorded videos like Jean-Frederic got awesome eXp explain video that he did several months ago I believe in Florida and then also we've got live webinars we've got live lunches and so how you want to see it. Now if it's you know confidential definitely you know confidential for you guys but come on out let us know we're here to help. We're here to have fun and you know basically just educate yourself on this business model that's changing and disrupting the real estate industry. KEVIN: Fantastic. For anybody listening for rolling down the road and listening in your car or away from your computer. The show notes for the podcast will have an introductory video you can watch about seven minutes or so on eXp Realty, the video that Pat references where Gene Frederick is presenting and it was in Florida I think it was last August will be linked in the show notes as well. Pat before we wrap up this session. How would if somebody is listening to this and they want to get a hold of you. What's the best way to reach you? PAT: Sure. You know the best way is just my cellphone number. You know I've got my cell phone glued to me every single day. My cell phone number is that area code 210 693 8711 again 210 693 8711. And just give me a call. Shoot me a text whatever it is and I definitely would love to answer any questions that anybody has. In that scene. Just like what you're saying you know this business model is so unique and so different that I help out everybody that's interested. In the opportunity and the business model with eXp I help out a lot of agents that are not even in my drug reps organization because you know what if I help them out and they end up joining eXp that going help the company grow and how I get a benefit from it while I'm at a benefit from it from the age of ownership can the stock side of it if they're in my revenue share organization that are benefiting from their success and revenue sharing. So I'd benefit either way. And so it's a great business model where the agents come together and truly want to help everybody grow. You know these agents are not my competitors these agents are my colleagues they're my shareholders. You know we're all shareholders together and we're all in this together so everybody wants to collaborate and help each other out. I've never seen anything like this. I've been a part of a lot of Fortune 500 medical companies own my own business. I've sold my own business and truly this is something that I've never seen before. You know the leadership alone at eXp is just truly remarkable. We've got a ton of great leaders we're adding more leaders to the corporate staff. You know every single month and so to be a part of this and the see eXp grow, it is just truly life changing. KEVIN: Well and we appreciate you coming on because I want to reiterate what you're saying which is it doesn't matter if it's Gene Frederick, it's Pat it's me or anybody else. We're available as a resource and it doesn't matter because we're all shareholders in this and I think I'm glad you brought that up because from the outside and from the franchise systems that doesn't normally occur right. You know you're going to get referred to a managing broker or a team leader and they're all little islands. Well what the market is starting to learn is eXp realty is all pointed in the same direction and we have one goal which is to make sure people if they are a good match for eXp realty because frankly not everybody is. That's right. We're certainly having a lot of people join we had close to 1000 agents in January of 2018 joined and you talked about having less than that in the entire company when you join. So again it shows you the growth. PAT: That's right. KEVIN: So Pat I appreciate you coming on and we'll talk to again soon I'm sure. PAT: You bet. Thanks for having me Kevin.