Podcast appearances and mentions of hope rugo

In this episode, Hope Rugo, MD, of City of Hope, shares insights from the SERENA-6 trial, which evaluated ctDNA-guided treatment changes for patients with HR-positive/HER2-negative metastatic breast cancer.  Let us know what you thought of this week's episode on Twitter: @physicianswkly Want to share your medical expertise, research, or unique experience in medicine on the PW podcast? Email us at editorial@physweekly.com! Thanks for listening!

Dr. Hope Rugo and Dr. Kamaria Lee discuss the prevalence of financial toxicity in cancer care in the United States and globally, focusing on breast cancer, and highlight key interventions to mitigate financial hardship. TRANSCRIPT  Dr. Hope Rugo: Hello, and welcome to By the Book, a podcast series from ASCO that features engaging conversations between editors and authors of the ASCO Educational Book. I'm your host, Dr. Hope Rugo. I'm the director of the Women's Cancer Program and division chief of breast medical oncology at the City of Hope Cancer Center, and I'm also the editor-in-chief of the Educational Book. Rising healthcare costs are causing financial distress for patients and their families across the globe. Patients with cancer report financial toxicity as a major impediment to their quality of life, and its association with worse outcomes is well documented. Today, we'll be discussing how patients with breast cancer are uniquely at risk for financial toxicity. Joining me for this discussion is Dr. Kamaria Lee, a fourth-year radiation oncology resident and health equity researcher at MD Anderson Cancer Center and a co-author of the recently published article titled, "Financial Toxicity in Breast Cancer: Why Does It Matter, Who Is at Risk, and How Do We Intervene?" Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.  Dr. Lee, it's great to have you on this podcast. Dr. Kamaria Lee: Hey, Dr. Rugo. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here today. I also would like to recognize my co-authors, Dr. Alexandru Eniu, Dr. Christopher Booth, Molly MacDonald, and Dr. Fumiko Chino, who worked on this book chapter with me and did a fantastic presentation on the topic at ASCO this past year. Dr. Hope Rugo: Thanks very much. We'll now just jump into the questions. We know that rising medical costs contribute to a growing financial burden on patients, which has [GC1]  [JG2]  been documented to contribute to lower quality-of-life, compromised clinical care, and worse health outcomes. How are patients with breast cancer uniquely at risk for financial toxicity? How does the problem vary within the breast cancer population in terms of age, racial and ethnic groups, and those who have metastatic disease? Dr. Kamaria Lee: Breast cancer patients are uniquely at risk of financial toxicity for several reasons. Three key reasons are that breast cancer often requires multimodal treatment. So this means patients are receiving surgery, many receive systemic therapies, including hormonal therapies, as well as radiation. And so this requires care coordination and multiple visits that can increase costs. Secondly, another key reason that patients with breast cancer are uniquely at risk for financial toxicity is that there's often a long survivorship period that includes long-term care for toxicities and continued follow-ups, and patients might also be involved in activities regarding advocacy, but also physical therapy and mental health appointments during their prolonged survivorship, which can also add costs. And a third key reason that patients with breast cancer are uniquely at risk for financial toxicity is that the patient population is primarily women. And we know that women are more likely to have increased caregiver responsibilities while also potentially working and managing their treatments, and so this is another contributor. Within the breast cancer population, those who are younger and those who are from marginalized racial/ethnic groups and those with metastatic disease have been shown to be at an increased risk. Those who are younger may be more likely to need childcare during treatment if they have kids, or they're more likely to be employed and not yet retired, which can be disrupted while receiving treatment. And those who are racial/ethnic minorities may have increased financial toxicity due to reasons that exist even after controlling for socioeconomic factors. And some of these reasons have been shown to be increased risk of job or income loss or transportation barriers during treatment. And lastly, for those with metastatic breast cancer, there can be ongoing financial distress due to the long-term care that is needed for treatment, and this can include parking, transportation, and medications while managing their metastatic disease. Dr. Hope Rugo: I think it is really important to understand these issues as you just outlined. There has been a lot of focus on financial toxicity research in recent years, and that has led to novel approaches in screening for financial hardship. Can you tell us about the new screening tools and interventions and how you can easily apply that to clinical practice, keeping in mind that people aren't at MD Anderson with a bunch of support and information on this but are in clinical practice and seeing many, many patients a day with lots of different cancers? Dr. Kamaria Lee: You're exactly right that there is incredible nuance needed in understanding how to best screen for financial hardship in different types of practices. There are multiple financial toxicity tools. The most commonly used tool is the Comprehensive Score for Financial Toxicity, also known as the COST tool. In its full form, it's an 11-item survey. There's also a summary question as well. And these questions look at objective and subjective financial burden, and it uses a five-point Likert scale. For example, one question on the full form is, "I know that I have enough money in savings, retirement, or assets to cover the cost of my treatment," and then patients are able to respond "not at all" to "very much" with a threshold score for financial toxicity risk. Of course, as you noted, one critique of having an 11-item survey is that there's limited time in patient encounters with their providers. And so recently, Thom et al validated an abbreviated two-question version of the COST tool. This validation was done in an urban comprehensive cancer center, and it was found to have a high predictive value to the full measure. We note which two questions are specifically pulled from the full measure within the book chapter. And this is one way that it can be easier for clinicians who are in a busier setting to still screen for financial toxicity with fewer questions. I also do recommend that clinicians who know their clinic's workflow the best, work with their team of nurses, financial navigators, and others to best integrate the tool into their workflow. For some, this may mean sending the two-item survey as a portal message so that patients can answer it before consults. Other times, it could mean having it on the tablet that can be done in the clinic waiting room. And so there are different ways that screening can be done, even in a busy setting, and acknowledging that different practices have different amounts of resources and time. Dr. Hope Rugo: And where would people access that easily? I recognize that that information is in your chapter, or your article that's on PubMed that will be linked to this podcast, but it is nice to just know where people could easily access that online. Dr. Kamaria Lee: Yes, and so you should be able to Google ‘the COST measure', and then there is a website that also has the forms as well. So it's also beyond the book chapter, Googling ‘the COST measure', and then online they would be able to find access to the form. Dr. Hope Rugo: And how often would you do that screening? Dr. Kamaria Lee: So, I think it's definitely important that we are as proactive as possible. And so initially, I recommend that the screening happens at the time of diagnosis, and so if it's done through the portal, it can be sent before the initial consult, or again, however, is best in the workflow. So at the time of diagnosis and then at regular intervals, so throughout the treatment process, but then also into the follow-up period as well to best understand if there's still a financial burden even after the treatments have been completed. Dr. Hope Rugo: I wonder if in the metastatic setting, you could do it at the change of treatment, you know, a month after somebody's changed treatment, because people may not be as aware of the financial constraints when they first get prescribed a drug. It's more when you hear back from how much it's going to cost. And leading into that, I think it's, what do you do with this? So, you know, this cost conversation is really important. You're going to be talking to the patient about the cost considerations when you, for example, see that there are financial issues, you're prescribing treatments. How do we implement impactful structured cost conversations with our breast cancer patients, help identify financial issues, and intervene? How do we intervene? I mean, as physicians often we aren't really all that aware, or providers, of how to address the cost. Dr. Kamaria Lee: Yes, I agree fully that another key time when to screen for financial toxicity is at that transition between treatments to best understand where they're at based off of what they've received previously for care, and then to anticipate needs when changing regimens, such as like you said in the metastatic setting. As we're collecting this information, you're right, we screen, we get this information, and what do we do? I do agree that there is a lack of knowledge among us clinicians of how do we manage this information. What is insurance? How do we manage insurance and help patients with insurance concerns? How do we help them navigate out-of-pocket costs or even the indirect costs of transportation? Those are a lot of things that are not covered in-depth in traditional medical training. And so it can be overwhelming for a lot of clinicians, not only due to time limitations in clinic, but also just having those conversations within their visit. And so what I would say, a key thing to note, is that this is another area for multidisciplinary care. So just as we're treating patients in a multidisciplinary way within oncology as we work with our medical oncology, surgical colleagues across the board, it's knowing that this is another area for multidisciplinary care. So the team members include all of the different oncologists, but it also includes team members such as financial counselors and navigators and social workers and even understanding nonprofit partners who we have who have money that can be set aside to help reduce costs for certain different aspects of treatment. Another thing I will note is that most patients with breast cancer often say they do want to have these conversations still with their clinicians. So they do still see a clinician as someone that can weigh in on the costs of their treatment or can weigh in on this other aspect of their care, even if it's not the actual medication or the radiation. And so patients do desire to hear from their clinicians about this topic, and so I think another way to make it feel less overwhelming for clinicians like ourselves is to know that even small conversations are helpful and then being knowledgeable about within your institution or, like I said, outside of it with nonprofits, being aware of who can I refer this patient to for continued follow-up and for more detailed information and resources. Dr. Hope Rugo: Are those the successful interventions? It's really referring to financial navigators? How do people identify? You know, in an academic center, we often will sort of punt this to social workers or our nurse navigators. What about in the community? What's a successful intervention example of mitigating financial toxicity? Dr. Kamaria Lee: I agree completely that the context at which people are practicing is important to note. So as you alluded to, in some bigger systems, we do have financial navigators and this has been seen to be successful in providing applications and assisting with applications for things such as pharmaceutical assistance, insurance applications, discount opportunities.  Another successful intervention are financial toxicity tumor boards, which I acknowledge might not be able to exist everywhere. But where this is possible, multidisciplinary tumor boards that include both doctors and nurses and social workers and any other members of the care team have been able to effectively decrease patients' personal spending on care costs and decrease co-pays through having a dedicated time to discuss concerns as they arise or even proactively. Otherwise, I think in the community, there are other interventions in regards to understanding different aspects of government programs that might be available for patients that are not, you know, limited to an institution, but that are more nationally available, and then again, also having the nonprofit, you know, partnerships to see other resources that patients can have access to.  And then I would also say that the indirect costs are a significant burden for many patients. So by that, I mean even parking costs, transportation, childcare. And so even though those aren't interventions necessarily with someone who is a financial navigator, I would recommend that even if it's a community practice, they discuss ways that they can help offset those indirect costs with patients with parking or if there are ways to help offset transportation costs or at least educate patients on other centers that may be closer to them or they can still receive wonderful care, and then also making sure that patients are able to even have appointments scheduled in ways that are easier for them financially.  So even if someone's receiving care out in the community where there's not a financial navigator, as clinicians or our scheduling teams, sometimes there are options to make sure if a patient wants, visits are more so on one day than throughout the week or many hours apart that can really cause loss of income due to missed work. And so there are also kind of more nuanced interventions that can happen even without a financial navigation system in place. Dr. Hope Rugo: I think that those are really good points and it is interesting when you think about financial toxicity. I mean, we worry a lot when patients can't take the drugs because they can't afford them, but there are obviously many other non-treatment, direct treatment-related issues that come up like the parking, childcare, tolls, you know, having a working car, all those kinds of things, and the unexpected things like school is out or something like that that really play a big role where they don't have alternatives. And I think that if we think about just drug costs, I think those are a big issue in the global setting. And your article did address financial toxicity in the global setting. International financial toxicity rates range from 25% of patients with breast cancer in high-income countries to nearly 80% in low- and middle-income countries or LMICs. You had cited a recent meta-analysis of the global burnout from cancer, and that article found that over half of patients faced catastrophic health expenditures. And of course, I travel internationally and have a lot of colleagues who are working in oncology in many countries, and it is really often kind of shocking from our perspective to see what people can get coverage for and how much they have to pay out-of-pocket and how much that changes, that causes a lot of disparity in access to healthcare options, even those that improve survival. Can you comment on the global impact of this problem? Dr. Kamaria Lee: I am glad that you brought this up for discussion as well. Financial toxicity is something that is a significant global issue. As you mentioned, as high as 80% of patients with breast cancer in low- and middle-income countries have had significant financial toxicity. And it's particularly notable that even when looking at breast cancer compared to other malignancies around the world, the burden appears to be worse. This has been seen even in countries with free universal healthcare. One example is Sri Lanka, where they saw high financial toxicity for their patients with breast cancer, even with this free universal healthcare. But there were also those travel costs and just additional out-of-hospital tests that were not covered. Also, literature in low- and middle-income countries shows that patients might also be borrowing money from their social networks, so from their family and their friends, to help cover their treatment costs, and in some cases, people are making daily food compromises to help offset the cost of their care. So there is a really large burden of financial toxicity generally for cancer globally, but also specifically in breast cancer, it warrants specific discussion. In the meta-analysis that you mentioned, they identified key risk factors of financial toxicity globally that included people who had a larger family size, a lower income, a lack of insurance, longer disease duration, so again, the accumulation of visits and costs and co-pay over time, and those who had multiple treatments. And so in the global setting, there is this significant burden, but then I will also note that there is a lack of literature in low-income countries on financial toxicity. So where we suspect that there is a higher burden and where we need to better understand how it's distributed and what interventions can be applied, especially culturally specific interventions for each country and community, there's less research on this topic. So there is definitely an increased need for research in financial toxicity, particularly in the global setting. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, and I think that goes on to how we hope that financial toxicity researchers will have approaches to large-scale multi-institutional interventions to improve financial toxicity. I think this is an enormous challenge, but one of the SWOG organizations has done some great work in this area, and a randomized trial addressing cancer-related financial hardship through the delivery of a proactive financial navigation intervention is one area that SWOG has focused on, which I think is really interesting. Of course, that's going to be US-based, which is how we might find our best paths starting. Do you think that's a good path forward, maybe that being able to provide something like that across institutions that are independent of being a cancer only academic center, or more general academic center, or a community practice? You know, is finding ways to help patients with breast cancer and their families understand and better manage financial aspects of cancer care on a national basis the next approach? Dr. Kamaria Lee: Yes, I agree that that is a good approach, and I think the proactive component is also key. We know that patients that are coming to us with any cancer, but including breast cancer, some of them have already experienced a financial burden or have recently had a job loss before even coming to us and having the added distress of our direct costs and our indirect costs. So I think being proactive when they come to us in regards to the additional burden that their cancer treatments may cause is key to try to get ahead of things as much as we can, knowing that even before they've seen us, there might be many financial concerns that they've been navigating.  I think at the national level, that allows us to try to understand things at what might be a higher level of evidence and make sure that we're able to address this for a diverse cohort of patients. I know that sometimes the enrollment can be challenging at the national level when looking at financial toxicity, as then we're involving many different types of financial navigation partners and programs, and so that can maybe make it more complex to understand the best approaches, but I think that it can be done and can really bring our understanding of important financial toxicity interventions to the next level. And then the benefit to families with the proactive component is just allowing them to feel more informed, which can help decrease anticipation, anxiety related to anticipation, and allow them to help plan things moving forward for themselves and for the whole family. Dr. Hope Rugo: Those are really good points and I wonder, I was just thinking as you were talking, that having some kind of a process where you could attach to the electronic health record, you could click on the financial toxicity survey questions that somebody filled out, and then there would be a drop-down menu for interventions or connecting you to people within your clinic or even more broadly that would be potential approaches to manage that toxicity issue so that it doesn't impact care, you know, that people aren't going to decide not to take their medication or not to come in or not to get their labs because of the cost or the transportation or the home care issues that often are a big problem, even parking, as you pointed out, at the cancer center. And actually, we had a philanthropic donor when I was at UCSF who donated a large sum of money for patient assistance, and it was interesting to then have these sequential meetings with all the stakeholders to try and decide how you would use that money. You need a big program, you need to have a way of assessing the things you can intervene with, which is really tough. In that general vein, you know, what are the governmental, institutional, and provider-level actions that are required to help clinicians do our best to do no financial harm, given the fact that we're prescribing really expensive drugs that require a lot of visits when caring for our patients with breast cancer in the curative and in the metastatic setting? Dr. Kamaria Lee: At the governmental level, there are patient assistant programs that do exist, and I think that those can continue and can become more robust. But I also think one element of those is oftentimes the programs that we have at the government level or even institutional levels might have a lot of paperwork or be harder for people with lower literacy levels to complete. And so I think the government can really try to make sure that the paperwork that is given, within reason, with all the information they need, but that the paperwork can be minimized and that there can be clear instructions, as well as increased health insurance options and, you know, medical debt forgiveness as more broad just overall interventions that are needed. I think additionally, institutions that have clinical trials can help ensure that enrollment can be at geographically diverse locations. Some trials do reimburse for travel costs, of course, but sometimes then patients need the reimbursement sooner than it comes. And so I think there's also those considerations of more so upfront funds for patients involved in clinical trials if they're going to have to travel far to be enrolled in that type of care or trying to, again, make clinical trials more available at diverse locations.  I would also say that it's important that those who design clinical trials use what is known as the “Common Sense Oncology” approach of making sure that they're designed in minimizing the use of outcomes that might have a smaller clinical benefit but may have a high financial toxicity. And that also goes to what providers can do, of understanding what's most important to a particular patient in front of them, what outcomes and what benefit, or you know, how many additional months of progression-free survival or things like that might be important to a particular patient and then also educating them and discussing what the associated financial burden is just so that they have the full picture as they make an informed decision. Dr. Hope Rugo: As much as we know. I mean, I think that that's one of the big challenges is that as we prescribe these expensive drugs and often require multiple visits, even, you know, really outside of the clinical trial setting, trying to balance the benefit versus the financial toxicity can be a huge challenge. And that's a big area, I think, that we still need help with, you know. As we have more drugs approved in the early-stage setting and treatments that could be expensive, oral medications, for example, in our Medicare population where the share of cost may be substantial upfront, you know, with an upfront cost, how do we balance the benefits versus the risk? And I think you make an important point that discussing this individually with patients after we found out what the cost is. I think warning patients about the potential for large out-of-pocket cost and asking them to contact us when they know is one way around this. You know, patients feeling like they're sort of out there with a prescription, a recommendation from their doctor, they're scared of their cancer, and they have this huge share of cost that we didn't know about. That's one challenge, and I don't know if there's any suggestions you have about how one should approach that communication with the patient. Dr. Kamaria Lee: Yes, I think part of it is truly looking at each patient as an individual and asking how much they want to know, right? So we all know that patients, some who want more information, some want less, and so I think one way to approach that is asking them about how much information do they want to know, what is most helpful to them. And then also, knowing that if you're in a well-resourced setting that does have the social workers and financial navigators, also making sure it's integrated in the multidisciplinary setting and so that they know who they can go to for what, but also know that as a clinician, you're always happy for them to bring up their concerns and that if it's something that you're not aware of, that you will connect them to the correct multidisciplinary team members who can accurately provide that additional information. Dr. Hope Rugo: Do you have any other additional comments that you'd like to mention that we haven't covered? I think the idea of a financial toxicity screen with two questions that could be implemented at change of therapy or just periodically throughout the course of treatment would be a really great thing, but I think we do need as much information on potential interventions as possible because that's really what challenges people. It's like finding out information that you can't handle. Your article provides a lot of strategies there, which I think are great and can be discussed on a practice and institutional level and applied. Dr. Kamaria Lee: Yeah, I would just like to thank you for the opportunity to discuss such an important topic within oncology and specifically for our patients with breast cancer. I agree that it can feel overwhelming, both for clinicians and patients, to navigate this topic that many of us are not as familiar with, but I would just say that the area of financial toxicity is continuing to evolve as we gather more information on most successful interventions and that our patients can often inform us on, you know, what interventions are most needed as we see them. And so you can have your thinking about it as you see individual patients of, "This person mentioned this could be more useful to them." And so I think also learning from our patients in this space that can seem overwhelming and that maybe we weren't all trained on in medical school to best understand how to approach it and how to give our patients the best care, not just medically, but also financially. Dr. Hope Rugo: Thank you, Dr. Lee, for sharing your insights with us today. Our listeners will find a link, as I mentioned earlier, to the Ed Book article we discussed today in the transcript of this episode. I think it's very useful, a useful resource, and not just for providers, but for clinic staff overall. I think this can be of great value and help open the discussion as well. Dr. Kamaria Lee: Thank you so much, Dr. Rugo. Dr. Hope Rugo: And thanks to our listeners for joining us today. Please join us again next month on By the Book for more insightful views on topics you'll be hearing at Education Sessions from ASCO meetings and our deep dives into new approaches that are shaping modern oncology. Thank you. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Follow today's speakers:       Dr. Hope Rugo  @hope.rugo  Dr. Kamaria Lee @ lee_kamaria Follow ASCO on social media:       @ASCO on X (formerly Twitter)       ASCO on Bluesky      ASCO on Facebook       ASCO on LinkedIn       Disclosures:      Dr. Hope Rugo:   Honoraria: Mylan/Viatris, Chugai Pharma  Consulting/Advisory Role: Napo Pharmaceuticals, Sanofi, Bristol Myer  Research Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Merck, Daiichi Sankyo, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Hoffman La-Roche AG/Genentech, In., Stemline Therapeutics, Ambryx    Dr. Kamaria Lee: No relationships to disclose  

Host: Charles Turck, PharmD, BCPS, BCCCP Guest: Hope S. Rugo, MD, FASCO Not only is PI3Kα the most common mutation seen in patients with HR+/HER2- advanced breast cancer, but it's also associated with endocrine therapy resistance and more aggressive cancer growth. Given its prevalence and impact on outcomes, it's important to know how and when to test for this mutation and how emerging targeted therapies might change our approach in clinical practice. Joining Dr. Charles Turck to share her insights on PI3Kα testing and targeted therapies for HR+/HER2- advanced breast cancer is Dr. Hope Rugo, Director of the Women's Cancers Program, Division Chief of Breast Medical Oncology and Professor of the Department of Medical Oncology and Therapeutics Research at City of Hope Comprehensive Cancer Center.

Host: Charles Turck, PharmD, BCPS, BCCCP Guest: Hope S. Rugo, MD, FASCO Not only is PI3Kα the most common mutation seen in patients with HR+/HER2- advanced breast cancer, but it's also associated with endocrine therapy resistance and more aggressive cancer growth. Given its prevalence and impact on outcomes, it's important to know how and when to test for this mutation and how emerging targeted therapies might change our approach in clinical practice. Joining Dr. Charles Turck to share her insights on PI3Kα testing and targeted therapies for HR+/HER2- advanced breast cancer is Dr. Hope Rugo, Director of the Women's Cancers Program, Division Chief of Breast Medical Oncology and Professor of the Department of Medical Oncology and Therapeutics Research at City of Hope Comprehensive Cancer Center.

In this episode, CancerNetwork® spoke with breast oncologists Heather McArthur, MD; Erika Hamilton, MD; Hope Rugo, MD; and Paolo Tarantino, MD, PhD, about advances in breast cancer. These developments included recent drug approvals and ongoing research for therapeutic approaches, particularly in the areas of antibody-drug conjugates (ADCs) and CDK4/6 inhibitors, based on presentations they gave at the 25th Annual International Congress on the Future of Breast Cancer (IBC) East in New York City. Initially, McArthur, Komen Distinguished Chair in Clinical Breast Cancer Research at the Harold C. Simmons Comprehensive Cancer Center, discussed immunotherapy use in high-risk triple-negative and HER2-positive disease, the evolving role of adjuvant CDK4/6 inhibition in HER2-negative breast cancer, and potentially transformative advancements in early breast cancer treatment.  She highlighted the FDA approval for pembrolizumab (Keytruda) in early-stage triple-negative breast cancer, promising clinical trials in estrogen receptor (ER)–positive high-risk early-stage breast cancer, and data from an investigator-initiated trial to treat HER2-positive disease. Additionally, she highlighted an 8.5% improvement in pathological complete response with pembrolizumab added to immunotherapy in the phase 3 KEYNOTE-756 trial (NCT03725059), adding that a further event-free survival benefit may complicate the landscape for CDK4/6 inhibition based on lung and liver toxicities associated with the coadministration of these inhibitors with immunotherapy.1 McArthur expressed further excitement for ADC-based combinations for triple-negative disease, as well as in the high-risk residual disease setting. In addition, she highlighted potential advancements in de-escalation strategies and further considerations for ADCs in the HER2-positive and hormone receptor (HR)–positive spaces. Then, Hamilton, director of Breast Cancer and Gynecologic Cancer Research at the Sarah Cannon Research Institute, highlighted emerging therapies for early breast cancer, as well as her use of datopotamab deruxtecan-dlnk (dato-DXd; Datroway) and fam-trastuzumab deruxtecan-nxki (T-DXd; Enhertu) given their recent approvals in various breast cancer subtypes. She also touched upon challenges with respect to the implementation of new therapies for early breast cancer into clinical practice. She initially highlighted new data from the phase 3 VERITAC-2 trial (NCT05654623) presented at the 2025 American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO) Annual Meeting.2 Specifically, findings showed that vepdegestrant, an oral proteolysis-targeting chimera (PROTAC), exhibited an efficacy advantage over fulvestrant (Faslodex) in patients with ESR1-mutant ER-positive, HER2-negative advanced or metastatic disease. Moreover, she highlighted data from the phase 3 DESTINY-Breast09 (NCT04784715) of T-DXd in various combinations for patients with HER2-positive metastatic breast cancer.3 Hamilton further highlighted her implementation of T-DXd into clinical practice, citing her use of the agent in patients with metastatic disease, including those with HER2-low and HER2-ultralow breast cancer. She further differentiated dato-DXd from T-DXd, suggesting that they were different classes of drugs due to their different targets: TROP2 vs HER2. She concluded by highlighting an unmet need regarding sustained benefit from endocrine therapy in HR-positive disease, as well as for ADC sequencing and mechanisms of resistance. Afterward, Rugo, division chief of Breast Medical Oncology, Women's Cancer Program Director, and professor in the Department of Medical Oncology and Therapeutics Research at City of Hope, discussed efficacy and safety considerations for CDK4/6 inhibitors in early breast cancer treatment. Specifically, she highlighted their high tolerability despite adverse effects and costs associated with their use. Rugo further touched upon a reduction of recurrence rates associated with CDK4/6 inhibition, although longer-term follow-up data were warranted to optimize the duration of therapy and elucidate survival outcomes. Finally, Tarantino, a research fellow at the Dana-Farber Institute, concluded by discussing sequencing strategies for ADCs, as well as which breast cancer settings or patient populations will experience the greatest impact with this treatment modality. Tarantino discussed his use of the “sandwich strategy,” where he switches the mechanism of action of treatment after using a TOPO1 ADC. Furthermore, Tarantino highlighted data from the DESTINY-Breast09 and phase 3 ASCENT-04 (NCT06100874) trials, which displayed the enhanced efficacy of 2 ADC combination therapies.4 He concluded by discussing future considerations for combining multiple ADCs. References 1. Cardoso F, O'Shaughnessy J, Liu Z, et al. Pembrolizumab and chemotherapy in high-risk, early-stage, ER+/HER2- breast cancer: a randomized phase 3 trial. Nat Med. 2025;31(2):442-448. doi:10.1038/s41591-024-03415-7 2. Hamilton E, De Laurentiis M, Jhaveri K, et al. Vepdegestrant, a PROTAC estrogen receptor (ER) degrader, vs fulvestrant in ER-positive/human epidermal growth factor receptor 2 (HER2)–negative advanced breast cancer: results of the global, randomized, phase 3 VERITAC-2 study. J Clin Oncol. 2025;43(suppl 17):LBA1000. doi:10.1200/JCO.2025.43.17_suppl.LBA1000 3. Tolaney S, Jiang Z, Zhang Q, et al. Trastuzumab deruxtecan (T-DXd) + pertuzumab (P) vs taxane + trastuzumab + pertuzumab (THP) for first-line (1L) treatment of patients (pts) with human epidermal growth factor receptor 2–positive (HER2+) advanced/metastatic breast cancer (a/mBC): interim results from DESTINY-Breast09. J Clin Oncol. 2025;43(suppl 17):LBA1008. 4. Tolaney SM, de Azambuja E, Kalinsky K, et al. Sacituzumab govitecan (SG) + pembrolizumab (pembro) vs chemotherapy (chemo) + pembro in previously untreated PD-L1–positive advanced triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC): Primary results from the randomized phase 3 ASCENT-04/KEYNOTE-D19 study. J Clin Oncol. 2025;43(suppl 17):LBA109. doi:10.1200/JCO.2025.43.17_suppl.LBA109

Drs. Hope Rugo, Sheri Brenner, and Mikolaj Slawkowski-Rode discuss the struggle that health care professionals experience when terminally ill patients are suffering and approaches to help clinicians understand and respond to suffering in a more patient-centered and therapeutic way. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Hope Rugo: Hello, and welcome to By the Book, a monthly podcast series from ASCO that features engaging conversations between editors and authors of the ASCO Educational Book.  I'm your host, Dr. Hope Rugo. I'm director of the Women's Cancers Program and division chief of breast medical oncology at the City of Hope Cancer Center, and I'm also the editor-in-chief of the Educational Book. On today's episode, we'll be exploring the complexities of grief and oncology and the struggle we experience as healthcare professionals when terminally ill patients are suffering. Our guests will discuss approaches to help clinicians understand and respond to suffering in a more patient-centered and therapeutic way, as outlined in their recently published article titled, “Oncology and Suffering: Strategies on Coping With Grief for Healthcare Professionals.” I'm delighted today to welcome Dr. Keri Brenner, a clinical associate professor of medicine, palliative care attending, and psychiatrist at Stanford University, and Dr. Mikołaj Sławkowski-Rode, a senior research fellow in philosophy in the Humanities Research Institute at the University of Buckingham, where he also serves as director of graduate research in p hilosophy. He is also a research fellow in philosophy at Blackfriars Hall at the University of Oxford and associate professor at the University of Warsaw.  Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode. Dr. Brenner and Dr. Sławkowski-Rode, thanks for being on the podcast today. Dr. Keri Brenner: Great to be here, Dr. Rugo. Thank you so much for that kind introduction. Dr. Mikołaj Sławkowski-Rode: Thank you very much, Dr. Rugo. It's a pleasure and an honor. Dr. Hope Rugo: So I'm going to start with some questions for both of you. I'll start with Dr. Brenner. You've spoken and written about the concept of suffering when there is no cure. For oncologists, what does it mean to attune to suffering, not just disease? And how might this impact the way they show up in difficult conversations with patients? Dr. Keri Brenner: Suffering is something that's so omnipresent in the work of clinical oncology, and I like to begin by just thinking about what is suffering, because it's a word that we use so commonly, and yet, it's important to know what we're talking about. I think about the definition of Eric Cassell, who was a beloved mentor of mine for decades, and he defined suffering as the state of severe distress that's associated with events that threaten the intactness of a person. And my colleague here at Stanford, Tyler Tate, has been working on a definition of suffering that encompasses the experience of a gap between how things are versus how things ought to be. Both of these definitions really touch upon suffering in a person-centered way that's relational about one's identity, meaning, autonomy, and connectedness with others. So these definitions alone remind us that suffering calls for a person-centered response, not the patient as a pathology, but the panoramic view of who the patient is as a person and their lived reality of illness. And in this light, the therapeutic alliance becomes one of our most active ingredients in care. The therapeutic alliance is that collaborative, trusting bond as persons that we have between clinician and patient, and it's actually one of the most powerful predictors of meaningful outcomes in our care, especially in oncologic care.  You know, I'll never forget my first day of internship at Massachusetts General Hospital. A faculty lecturer shared this really sage insight with us that left this indelible mark. She shared, “As physicians and healers, your very self is the primary instrument of healing. Our being is the median of the medicine.” So, our very selves as embodied, relationally grounded people, that's the median of the medicine and the first most enduring medicine that we offer. That has really borne fruit in the evidence that we see around the therapeutic alliance. And we see this in oncologic care, that in advanced cancer, a strong alliance with one's oncologist truly improves a patient's quality of life, treatment adherence, emotional well-being, and even surpasses structured interventions like psychotherapeutic interventions. Dr. Hope Rugo: That's just incredibly helpful information and actually terminology as well, and I think the concept of suffering differs so much. Suffering comes in many shapes and forms, and I think you really have highlighted that. But many oncologists struggle with knowing what to do when patients are suffering but can't be fixed, and I think a lot of times that has to do with oncologists when patients have pain or shortness of breath or issues like that. There are obviously many ways people suffer. But I think what's really challenging is how clinicians understand suffering and what the best approaches to respond to suffering are in the best patient-centered and therapeutic way. Dr. Keri Brenner: I get that question a lot from my trainees in palliative care, not knowing what to do. And my first response is, this is about how to be, not about knowing what to do, but how to be. In our medical training, we're trained often how to think and treat, but rarely how to be, how to accompany others. And I often have this image that I tell my trainees of, instead of this hierarchical approach of a fix-it mentality of all we're going to do, when it comes to elements of unavoidable loss, mortality, unavoidable sufferings, I imagine something more like accompaniment, a patient walking through some dark caverns, and I am accompanying them, trying to walk beside them, shining a light as a guide throughout that darkness. So it's a spirit of being and walking with. And it's so tempting in medicine to either avoid the suffering altogether or potentially overidentify with it, where the suffering just becomes so all-consuming like it's our own. And we're taught to instead strike a balance of authentic accompaniment through it. I often teach this key concept in my palli-psych work with my team about formulation. Formulation is a working hypothesis. It's taking a step back and asking, “Why? Why is this patient behaving in this manner? What might the patient's core inner struggle be?” Because asking that “why” and understanding the nuanced dimensions of a patient's core inner struggle will really help guide our therapeutic interactions and guide the way that we accompany them and where we choose to shine that light as we're walking with them. And oftentimes people think, “Well Keri, that sounds so sappy or oversentimental,” and it's not. You know, I'm just thinking about a case that I had a couple months ago, and it was a 28-year-old man with gastric cancer, metastatic disease, and that 28-year-old man, he was actually a college Division I athlete, and his dad was an acclaimed Division I coach. And our typical open-ended palliative care questions, that approach, infuriated them. They needed to know that I was showing up confident, competent, and that I was ready, on my A-game, with a real plan for them to follow through. And so my formulation about them was they needed somebody to show up with that confidence and competence, like the Division I athletes that they were, to really meet them and accompany them where they were on how they were going to walk through that experience of illness. Dr. Hope Rugo: These kinds of insights are so helpful to think about how we manage something that we face every day in oncology care. And I think that there are many ways to manage this.  Maybe I'll ask Dr. Sławkowski-Rode one question just that I think sequences nicely with what you're talking about.  A lot of our patients are trying to think about sort of the bigger picture and how that might help clinicians understand and support patients. So, the whole concept of spirituality, you know, how can we really use that as oncology clinicians to better understand and support patients with advanced illness, and how can that help patients themselves? And we'll talk about that in two different ways, but we'll just start with this broader question. Dr. Mikołaj Sławkowski-Rode: I think spirituality, and here, I usually refer to spirituality in terms of religious belief. Most people in the world are religious believers, and it is very intuitive and natural that religious beliefs would be a resource that people who help patients with a terminal diagnosis and healthcare professionals who work with those patients appeal to when they try to help them deal with the trauma and the stress of these situations.  Now, I think that the interesting thing there is that very often the benefit of appealing to a religious belief is misunderstood in terms of what it delivers. And there are many, many studies on how religious belief can be used to support therapy and to support patients in getting through the experience of suffering and defeating cancer or facing a terminal diagnosis. There's a wealth of literature on this. But most of the literature focuses on this idea that by appealing to religious belief, we help patients and healthcare practitioners who are working with them get over the fact and that there's a terminal diagnosis determining the course of someone's life and get on with our lives and engaging with whatever other pursuits we might have, with our job if we're healthcare practitioners, and with the other things that we might be passionate about in our lives. And the idea here is that this is what religion allows us to do because we sort of defer the need to worry about what's going to happen to us until the afterlife or some perspective beyond the horizon of our life here.  However, my view is – I have worked beyond philosophy also with theologians from many traditions, and my view here is that religion is something that does allow us to get on with our life but not because we're able to move on or move past the concerns that are being threatened by illness or death, but by forming stronger bonds with these things that we value in our life in a way and to have a sense of hope that these will be things that we will be able to keep an attachment to despite the threat to our life. So, in a sense, I think very many approaches in the field have the benefit of religion upside down, as it were, when it comes to helping patients and healthcare professionals who are engaged with their illness and treating it. Dr. Hope Rugo: You know, it's really interesting the points that you make, and I think really important, but, you know, sometimes the oncologists are really struggling with their own emotional reactions, how they are reacting to patients, and dealing with sort of taking on the burden, which, Dr. Brenner, you were mentioning earlier. How can oncologists be aware of their own emotional reactions? You know, they're struggling with this patient who they're very attached to who's dying or whatever the situation is, but you want to avoid burnout as an oncologist but also understand the patient's inner world and support them. Dr. Keri Brenner: I believe that these affective, emotional states, they're contagious. As we accompany patients through these tragic losses, it's very normal and expected that we ourselves will experience that full range of the human experience as we accompany the patients. And so the more that we can recognize that this is a normative dimension of our work, to have a nonjudgmental stance about the whole panoramic set of emotions that we'll experience as we accompany patients with curiosity and openness about that, the more sustainable the work will become. And I often think about the concept of countertransference given to us by Sigmund Freud over 100 years ago. Countertransference is the clinician's response to the patient, the thoughts, feelings, associations that come up within us, shaped by our own history, our own life events, those unconscious processes that come to the foreground as we are accompanying patients with illness. And that is a natural part of the human experience. Historically, countertransference was viewed as something negative, and now it's actually seen as a key that can unlock and enlighten the formulation about what might be going on within the patient themselves even. You know, I was with a patient a couple weeks ago, and I found myself feeling pretty helpless and hopeless in the encounter as I was trying to care for them. And I recognized that countertransference within myself that I was feeling demoralized. It was a prompt for me to take a step back, get on the balcony, and be curious about that because I normally don't feel helpless and hopeless caring for my patients. Well, ultimately, I discovered through processing it with my interdisciplinary team that the patient likely had demoralization as a clinical syndrome, and so it's natural many of us were feeling helpless and hopeless also accompanying them with their care. And it allowed us to have a greater interdisciplinary approach and a more therapeutic response and deeper empathy for the patient's plight. And we can really be curious about our countertransferences. You know, a few months ago, I was feeling bored and distracted in a family meeting, which is quite atypical for me when I'm sharing serious illness news. And it was actually a key that allowed me to recognize that the patient was trying to distract all of us talking about inconsequential facts and details rather than the gravitas of her illness.  Being curious about these affective states really allows us to have greater sustainability within our own practice because it normalizes that human spectrum of emotions and also allows us to reduce unconscious bias and have greater inclusivity with our practice because what Freud also said is that what we can't recognize and say within our own selves, if we don't have that self-reflective capacity, it will come out in what we do. So really recognizing and having the self-awareness and naming some of these emotions with trusted colleagues or even within our own selves allows us to ensure that it doesn't come out in aberrant behaviors like avoiding the patient, staving off that patient till the end of the day, or overtreating, offering more chemotherapy or not having the goals of care, doing everything possible when we know that that might result in medically ineffective care. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, I love the comments that you made, sort of weaving in Freud, but also, I think the importance of talking to colleagues and to sharing some of these issues because I do think that oncologists suffer from the fact that no one else in your life wants to hear about dying people. They don't really want to hear about the tragic cases either. So, I think that using your community, your oncology community and greater community within medicine, is an important part of being able to sort of process. Dr. Keri Brenner: Yes, and Dr. Rugo, this came up in our ASCO [Education] Session. I'd love to double click into some of those ways that we can do this that aren't too time consuming in our everyday practice. You know, within palliative care, we have interdisciplinary rounds where we process complex cases. Some of us do case supervision with a trusted mentor or colleague where we bring complex cases to them. My team and I offer process rounds virtually where we go through countertransference, formulation, and therapeutic responses on some tough cases.  You know, on a personal note, just last week when I left a family meeting feeling really depleted and stuck, I called one of my trusted colleagues and just for 3 minutes constructively, sort of cathartically vented what was coming up within me after that family meeting, which allowed me to have more of an enlightened stance on what to do next and how to be therapeutically helpful for the case. One of my colleagues calls this "friend-tors." They coined the phrase, and they actually wrote a paper about it. Who within your peer group of trusted colleagues can you utilize and phone in real time or have process opportunities with to get a pulse check on where what's coming up within us as we're doing this work? Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, and it's an interesting question about how one does that and, you know, maintaining that as you move institutions or change places or become more senior, it's really important.  One of the, I think, the challenges sometimes is that we come from different places from our patients, and that can be an issue, I think when our patients are very religious and the provider is not, or the reverse, patients who don't have religious beliefs and you're trying to sort of focus on the spirituality, but it doesn't really ring true. So, Dr. Sławkowski-Rode, what resources can patients and practitioners draw on when they're facing death and loss in the absence of, or just different religious beliefs that don't fit into the standard model? Dr. Mikołaj Sławkowski-Rode: You're absolutely right that this can be an extremely problematic situation to be in when there is that disconnect of religious belief or more generally spiritual engagement with the situation that we're in. But I just wanted to tie into what Dr. Brenner was saying just before. I couldn't agree more, and I think that a lot of healthcare practitioners, oncologists in particular who I've had the pleasure to talk to at ASCO and at other events as well, are very often quite skeptical about emotional engagement in their profession. They feel as though this is something to be managed, as it were, and something that gets in the way. And they can often be very critical of methods that help them understand the emotions and extend them towards patients because they feel that this will be an obstacle to doing their job and potentially an obstacle also to helping patients to their full ability if they focus on their own emotions or the burden that emotionally, spiritually, and in other ways the illness is for the patient. They feel that they should be focusing on the cancer rather than on the patient's emotions. And I think that a useful comparison, although, you know, perhaps slightly drastic, is that of combat experience of soldiers. They also need to be up and running and can't be too emotionally invested in the situation that they're in. But there's a crucial difference, which is that soldiers are usually engaged in very short bursts of activity with the time to go back and rethink, and they often have a lot of support for this in between. Whereas doctors are in a profession where their exposure to the emotions of patients and their own emotions, the emotions of families of patients is constant. And I think that there's a great danger in thinking that this is something to be avoided and something to compartmentalize in order to avoid burnout. I think, in a way, burnout is more sure to happen if your emotions and your attachment to your patients goes ignored for too long. So that's just following up on Keri's absolutely excellent points. As far as the disconnect is concerned, that's, in fact, an area in which I'm particularly interested in. That's where my research comes in. I'm interested in the kinds of connections that we have with other people, especially in terms of maintaining bonds when there is no spiritual belief, no spiritual backdrop to support this connection. In most religious traditions, we have the framework of the religious belief that tells us that the person who we've lost or the values that have become undermined in our life are something that hasn't been destroyed permanently but something that we can still believe we have a deep connection to despite its absence from our life. And how do you rebuild that sense of the existence of the things that you have perceivably lost without the appeal to some sort of transcendent realm which is defined by a given religion? And that is a hard question. That's a question, I think, that can be answered partly by psychology but also partly by philosophy in terms of looking at who we are as human beings and our nature as people who are essentially, or as entities that are essentially connected to one another. That connection, I believe, is more direct than the mediation of religion might at first suggest. I think that we essentially share the world not only physically, it's not just the case that we're all here, but more importantly, the world that we live in is not just the physical world but the world of meanings and values that helps us orient ourselves in society and amongst one another as friends and foes. And it is that shared sense of the world that we can appeal to when we're thinking about retaining the value or retaining the connection with the people who we have lost or the people who are helping through, go through an experience of facing death. And just to finish, there's a very interesting question, I think, something that we possibly don't have time to explore, about the degree of connection that we have with other people. So, what I've just been saying is something that rings more true or is more intuitive when we think about the connections that we have to our closest ones. We share a similar outlook onto the world, and our preferences and our moods and our emotions and our values are shaped by life with the other person. And so, appealing to these values can give us a sense of a continued presence. But what in those relationships where the connection isn't that close? For example, given the topic of this podcast, the connection that a patient has with their doctor and vice versa. In what sense can we talk about a shared world of experience? Well, I think, obviously, we should admit degrees to the kind of relationship that can sustain our connection with another person. But at the same time, I don't think there's a clear cutoff point. And I think part of emotional engagement in medical practice is finding yourself somewhere on that spectrum rather than thinking you're completely off of it. That's what I would say. Dr. Hope Rugo: That's very helpful and I think a very helpful way of thinking about how to manage this challenging situation for all of us.  One of the things that really, I think, is a big question for all of us throughout our careers, is when to address the dying process and how to do that. Dr. Brenner, you know, I still struggle with this – what to do when patients refuse to discuss end-of-life but they're very close to end of life? They don't want to talk about it. It's very stressful for all of us, even where you're going to be, how you're going to manage this. They're just absolutely opposed to that discussion. How should we approach those kinds of discussions? How do we manage that? How do you address the code discussion, which is so important? You know, these patients are not able to stay at home at end-of-life in general, so you really do need to have a code discussion before you're admitting them. It actually ends up being kind of a challenge and a mess all around. You know, I would love your advice about how to manage those situations. Dr. Keri Brenner: I think that's one of the most piercing and relevant inquiries we have within our clinical work and challenges. I often think of denial not as an all-or-nothing concept but rather as parts of self. There's a part of everyone's being where the unconscious believes it's immortal and will live on forever, and yet we all know intellectually that we all have mortality and finitude and transience, and that time will end. We often think of this work as more iterative and gradual and exposure based. There's potency to words. Saying, “You are dying within days,” is a lot higher potency of a phrase to share than, “This is serious illness. This illness is incurable. Time might be shorter than we hoped.” And so the earlier and more upstream we begin to have these conversations, even in small, subtle ways, it starts to begin to expose the patient to the concept so they can go from the head to the heart, not only knowing their prognosis intellectually but also affectively, to integrate it into who they are as a person because all patients are trying to live well while also we're gradually exposing them to this awareness of mortality within their own lived experience of illness. And that, ideally, happens gradually over time. Now, there are moments where the medical frame is very limited, and we might have short days, and we have to uptitrate those words and really accompany them more radically through those high-affective moments. And that's when we have to take a lot of more nuanced approaches, but I would say the more earlier and upstream the better. And then the second piece to that question as well is coping with our own mortality. The more we can be comfortable with our own transience and finitude and limitations, the more we will be able to accompany others through that. And even within my own life, I've had to integrate losses in a way where before I go in to talk to one of my own palliative care patients, one mantra I often say to myself is, “I'm just a few steps behind you. I don't know if it's going to be 30 days or 30 years, but I'm just a few steps behind you on this finite, transient road of life that is the human experience.” And that creates a stance of accompaniment that patients really can experience as they're traversing these tragedies. Dr. Hope Rugo: That's great. And I think those are really important points and actually some pearls, which I think we can take into the clinic. I think being really concrete when really the expected life expectancy is a few days to a couple of weeks can be very, very helpful. And making sure the patients hear you, but also continuing to let them know that, as oncologists, we're here for them. We're not abandoning them. I think that's a big worry for many, certainly of my patients, is that somehow when they would go to hospice or be a ‘no code', that we're not going to support them anymore or treat them anymore. That is a really important process of that as well. And of course, engaging the team makes a big difference because the whole oncology team can help to manage situations that are particularly challenging like that. And just as we close, I wanted to ask one last question of you, Dr. Brenner, that suffering, grief, and burnout, you've really made the point that these are not problems to fix but dimensions that we want to attend to and acknowledge as part of our lives, the dying process is part of all of our lives. It's just dealing with this in the unexpected and the, I think, unpredictability of life, you know, that people take on a lot of guilt and all sorts of things about, all sorts of emotions. And the question is now, people have listened to this podcast, what can they take back to their oncology teams to build a culture that supports clinicians and their team at large to engage with these realities in a meaningful and sustainable way? I really feel like if we could build the whole team approach where we're supporting each other and supporting the patients together, that that will help this process immeasurably. Dr. Keri Brenner: Yes, and I'm thinking about Dr. Sławkowski-Rode's observation about the combat analogy, and it made me recognize this distinction between suppression and repression. Repression is this unconscious process, and this is what we're taught to do in medical training all the time, to just involuntarily shove that tragedy under the rug, just forget about it and see the next patient and move on. And we know that if we keep unconsciously shoving things under the rug, that it will lead to burnout and lack of sustainability for our clinical teams. Suppression is a more conscious process. That deliberate effort to say, “This was a tragedy that I bore witness to. I know I need to put that in a box on the shelf for now because I have 10 other patients I have to see.” And yet, do I work in a culture where I can take that off the shelf during particular moments and process it with my interdisciplinary team, phone a friend, talk to a trusted colleague, have some trusted case supervision around it, or process rounds around it, talk to my social worker? And I think the more that we model this type of self-reflective capacity as attendings, folks who have been in the field for decades, the more we create that ethos and culture that is sustainable because clinician self-reflection is never a weakness, rather it's a silent strength. Clinician self-reflection is this portal for wisdom, connectedness, sustainability, and ultimately transformative growth within ourselves. Dr. Hope Rugo: That's such a great point, and I think this whole discussion has been so helpful for me and I hope for our audience that we really can take these points and bring them to our practice. I think, “Wow, this is such a great conversation. I'd like to have the team as a whole listen to this as ways to sort of strategize talking about the process, our patients, and being supportive as a team, understanding how we manage spirituality when it connects and when it doesn't.” All of these points, they're bringing in how we process these issues and the whole idea of suppressing versus sort of deciding that it never happened at all is, I think, very important because that's just a tool for managing our daily lives, our busy clinics, and everything we manage. Dr. Keri Brenner: And Dr. Rugo, it's reminding me at Stanford, you know, we have this weekly practice that's just a ritual where every Friday morning for 30 minutes, our social worker leads a process rounds with us as a team, where we talk about how the work that we're doing clinically is affecting us in our lives in ways that have joy and greater meaning and connectedness and other ways that might be depleting. And that kind of authentic vulnerability with one another allows us to show up more authentically for our patients. So those rituals, that small 30 minutes once a week, goes a long way. And it reminds me that sometimes slowing things down with those rituals can really get us to more meaningful, transformative places ultimately. Dr. Hope Rugo: It's a great idea, and I think, you know, making time for that in everybody's busy days where they just don't have any time anymore is important. And you don't have to do it weekly, you could even do something monthly. I think there's a lot of options, and that's a great suggestion. I want to thank you both for taking your time out for this enriching and incredibly helpful conversation. Our listeners will find a link to the Ed Book article we discussed today, which is excellent, in the transcript of this episode. I want to thank you again, Dr. Brenner and Dr. Sławkowski-Rode, for your time and for your excellent thoughts and advice and direction. Dr. Mikołaj Sławkowski-Rode: Thank you very much, Dr. Rugo. Dr. Keri Brenner: Thank you. Dr. Hope Rugo: And thanks to our listeners for joining us today. Please join us again next month on By the Book for more insightful views on topics you'll be hearing at the education sessions from ASCO meetings and our deep dives on new approaches that are shaping modern oncology. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Follow today's speakers:      Dr. Hope Rugo @hope.rugo Dr. Keri Brenner @keri_brenner Dr. Mikolaj Slawkowski-Rode @MikolajRode Follow ASCO on social media:      @ASCO on X (formerly Twitter)      ASCO on Bluesky     ASCO on Facebook      ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:     Dr. Hope Rugo: Honoraria: Mylan/Viatris, Chugai Pharma Consulting/Advisory Role: Napo Pharmaceuticals, Sanofi, Bristol Myer Research Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Merck, Daiichi Sankyo, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Hoffman La-Roche AG/Genentech, In., Stemline Therapeutics, Ambryx Dr. Keri Brenner: No relationships to disclose Dr. Mikolaj Slawkowski-Rode: No relationships to disclose    

In this podcast, expert Hope Rugo, MD, discusses her approach to treating patients with hormone receptor–positive/HER2-negative breast cancer from the early-stage to metastatic disease. Consideration of these complex clinical scenarios taken from tumor board discussions at the 42nd Annual Miami Breast Cancer Conference® highlight evolving strategies in breast cancer care and clinical decision-making.

At the 2025 American Society of Clinical Oncology Annual Meeting, Hope Rugo, MD, chaired a session on managing the side effects of new breast cancer treatments and also presented information on how to manage the side effects of hormonal therapy medicines, which are used to treat hormone receptor-positive breast cancer. Listen to the episode to hear Dr. Rugo explain: ways to manage the side effects of tamoxifen and the aromatase inhibitors why talking to your doctor about side is crucial to managing them her advice for people who are having side effects from hormonal therapy medicines

On the inaugural episode of ASCO Education: By the Book, Dr. Nathan Pennell and Dr. Don Dizon share reflections on the evolution of the ASCO Educational Book, its global reach, and the role of its new companion podcast to further shine a spotlight on the issues shaping the future of modern oncology. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Nathan Pennell: Hello, I'm Dr. Nate Pennell, welcoming you to the first episode of our new podcast, ASCO Education: By the Book. The podcast will feature engaging discussions between editors and authors from the ASCO Educational Book. Each month, you'll hear nuanced views on key topics in oncology featured in Education Sessions at ASCO meetings, as well as some deep dives on the advances shaping modern oncology. Although I am honored to serve as the editor-in-chief (EIC) of the ASCO Educational Book, in my day job, I am the co-director of the Cleveland Clinic Lung Cancer Program and vice chair for clinical research for the Taussig Cancer Center here in Cleveland. I'm delighted to kick off our new podcast with a discussion featuring the Ed Book's previous editor-in-chief. Dr. Don Dizon is a professor of medicine and surgery at Brown University and works as a medical oncologist specializing in breast and pelvic malignancies at Lifespan Cancer Institute in Rhode Island. Dr. Dizon also serves as the vice chair for membership and accrual at the SWOG Cancer Research Network. Don, it's great to have you here for our first episode of ASCO Education: By the Book. Dr. Don Dizon: Really nice to be here and to see you again, my friend. Dr. Nathan Pennell: This was the first thing I thought of when we were kicking off a podcast that I thought we would set the stage for our hopefully many, many listeners to learn a little bit about what the Ed Book used to be like, how it has evolved over the last 14 years or so since we both started here and where it's going. You started as editor-in-chief in 2012, is that right? Dr. Don Dizon: Oh, boy. I believe that is correct, yes. I did two 5-year stints as EIC of the Educational Book, so that sounds about right. Although you're aging me very clearly on this podcast. Dr. Nathan Pennell: I had to go back in my emails to see if I could figure out when we started on this because we've been working on it for some time. Start out a little bit by telling me what do you remember about the Ed Book from back in the day when you were applying to be editor-in-chief and thinking about the Ed Book. What was it like at that time? Dr. Don Dizon: You know, it's so interesting to think about it.  Ten years ago, we were both in a very different place in our careers, and I remember when the Ed Book position came up, I had been writing a column for ASCO. I had done some editorial activities with other journals for sure, but what always struck me was it was very unclear how one was chosen to be a part of the education program at ASCO. And then it was very unclear how those faculty were then selected to write a paper for the Educational Book. And it was back in the day when the Educational Book was completely printed. So, there was this book that was cherished among American fellows in oncology. And it was one that, when I was newly attending, and certainly two or three years before the editor's position came up, it was one that I referenced all the time. So, it was a known commodity for many of us. And there was a certain sense of selectivity about who was invited to write in it. And it wasn't terribly transparent either. So, when the opportunity to apply for editor-in-chief of the Educational Book came up, I had already been doing so much work for ASCO. I had been on the planning committees and served in many roles across the organization, and editing was something I found I enjoyed in other work. So, I decided to put my name in the ring with the intention of sort of bringing the book forward, getting it indexed, for example, so that there was this credit that was more than just societal credit at ASCO. This ended up being something that was referenced and acknowledged as an important paper through PubMed indexing. And then also to provide it as a space where we could be more transparent about who was being invited and broadening the tent as to who could participate as an author in the Ed Book. Dr. Nathan Pennell: It's going to be surprising to many of our younger listeners to learn that the Educational Book used to be just this giant, almost like a brick. I mean, it was this huge tome of articles from the Education Sessions that you got when you got your meeting abstracts book at the annual meeting. And you can always see people on the plane on the way out of Chicago with their giant books. Dr. Don Dizon: Yes. Dr. Nathan Pennell: That added lots of additional weight to the plane, I'm sure, on the way out. Dr. Don Dizon: And it was not uncommon for us to be sitting at an airport, and people would be reading those books with highlighters. Dr. Nathan Pennell: I fondly remember being a fellow and coming up and the Ed Book was always really important to me, so I was excited. We'll also let the listeners in on that. I also applied to be the original editor-in-chief of the Ed Book back in 2012, although I was very junior and did not have any real editorial experience. I think I may have been section editor for The Oncologist at that point. And I had spoken to Dr. Ramaswamy Govindan at WashU who had been the previous editor-in-chief about applying and he was like, “Oh yeah. You should absolutely try that out.” And then when Dr. Dizon was chosen, I was like, “Oh, well. I guess I didn't get it.” And then out of the blue I got a call asking me to join as the associate editor, which I was really always very thankful for that opportunity. Dr. Don Dizon: Well, it was a highly fruitful collaboration, I think, between you and I when we first started. I do remember taking on the reins and sort of saying, “You know, this is our vision of what we want to do.” But then just working with the authors, which we did, about how to construct their papers and what we were looking for, all of that is something I look back really fondly on. Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think it was interesting too because neither one of us had really a lot of transparency into how things worked when we started. We kind of made it up a little bit as we went along. We wanted to get all of the faculty, or at least as many of them as possible contributing to these. And we would go to the ASCO Education Committee meeting and kind of talk about the Ed Book, and we were thinking about, you know, how could we get people to submit. So, at the time it wasn't PubMed indexed. Most people, I think, submitted individual manuscripts just from their talk, which could be anywhere from full length review articles to very brief manuscripts. Dr. Don Dizon: Sometimes it was their slides with like a couple of comments on it. Dr. Nathan Pennell: And some of them were almost like a summary of the talk. Yeah, exactly. And so sort of making that a little more uniform. There was originally an honorarium attached, which went away, but I think PubMed indexing was probably the biggest incentive for people to join. I remember that was one of the first things you really wanted to get. Dr. Don Dizon Yeah. And, you know, it was fortuitous. I'd like to take all the credit for it, but ASCO was very forward thinking with Dr. Ramaswamy and the conversations about going to PubMed with this had preceded my coming in. We knew what we needed to do to get this acknowledged, which was really strengthening the peer review so that these papers could meet the bar to get on PubMed. But you know, within the first, what, two or three years, Nate, of us doing this, we were able to get this accepted. And now it is. If you look at what PubMed did for us, it not only increased the potential of who was going to access it, but for, I think the oncology community, it allowed people access to papers by key opinion leaders that was not blocked by a paywall. And I thought that was just super important at the time. Social media was something, but it wasn't what it is now. But anybody could access these manuscripts and it's still the case today. Dr. Nathan Pennell: I think it's hard to overstate how important that was. People don't realize this, but the Ed Book is really widely accessed, especially outside the US as well. And a lot of people who can't attend the meeting to get the print, well, the once print, book could actually get access to essentially the education session from the annual meeting without having to fly all the way to the US to attend. Now, you know, we have much better virtual meeting offerings now and whatnot. But at the time it was pretty revolutionary to be able to do that. Dr. Don Dizon: Yeah, and you know, it's so interesting when I think back to, you know, this sort of evolution to a fully online publication of the Ed Book. It was really some requests from international participants of the annual meeting who really wanted to continue to see this in print. At that time, it was important to recognize that access to information was not uniform across the world. And people really wanted that print edition, maybe not for themselves, but so that access in more rural areas or where access in the broadband networks were not established that they still could access the book. I think things have changed now. We were able, I think, in your tenure, to see it fully go online. But even I just remember that being a concern as we went forward. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, we continued with the print book that was available if people asked for it, but apparently few enough people asked for it that it moved fully online. One of the major advantages of being fully online now is of course, it does allow us to publish kind of in real time as the manuscripts come out in the months leading up to the meeting, which has been, I think, a huge boon because it can build momentum for the Education Sessions coming in. People, you know, really look forward to it. Dr. Don Dizon: Yeah, that was actually a concern, you know, when we were phasing out Ed Book and going to this continuous publication model where authors actually had the ability to sort of revise their manuscript and that would be automatically uploaded. You had a static manuscript that was fully printed, and it was no longer an accurate one. And we did have the ability to fix it. And it just goes to show exactly what you're saying. This idea that these are living papers was really an important thing that ASCO embraced quite early, I think. Dr. Nathan Pennell: And with the onset of PubMed indexing, the participation from faculty skyrocketed and almost within a couple of years was up to the vast majority of sessions and faculty participating. Now I think people really understand that this is part of the whole process. But at the time I remember writing out on my slides in all caps, “THIS IS AN EXPECTATION.” And that's about the best word I could give because I asked if we could make people do it, and they were like, no, you can't make people do it. Dr. Don Dizon: So right.  Actually, I don't think people are aware of the work on the back end every year when I was on as EIC, Nate and myself, and then subsequently Dr. Hope Rugo would have these informational sessions with the education faculty and we would tout the Ed Book, tout the expectation, tout it was PubMed indexed and tout multidisciplinary participation. So, we were not seeing four manuscripts reflecting one session. You know, this encouragement to really embrace multidisciplinary care was something that very early on we introduced and really encouraged people not to submit perspective manuscripts, but to really get them in and then harmonize the paper so that it felt like it was, you know, one voice. Dr. Nathan Pennell: I consider that after PubMed indexing, the next major change to the Ed Book, that really made it a better product and that was moving from, you know, just these short individual single author manuscripts to single session combined manuscript that had multiple perspectives and topics, really much more comprehensive review articles. And I don't even remember what the impetus was for that, but it was really a success. Dr. Don Dizon: Yeah, I mean, I think in the beginning it was more of a challenge, I think, because people were really not given guidance on what these papers were supposed to look like. So, we were seeing individual manuscripts come forward. Looking back, it really foreshadowed the importance of multidisciplinary management. But at the time, it was really more about ensuring that people were leaving the session with a singular message of what to do when you're in clinic again. And the goal was to have the manuscripts reflect that sort of consensus view of a topic that was coming in. There were certain things that people still argued would not fit in a multidisciplinary manuscript. You know, if you have someone who's writing and whose entire talk was on the pathology of thyroid cancer. Another topic was on survivorship after thyroid cancer. It was hard to sort of get those two to interact and cover what was being covered. So, we were still getting that. But you're right, at the end of my tenure and into yours, there were far fewer of those individual manuscripts. Dr. Nathan Pennell: And I think it's even made it easier to write because now, you know, you just have to write a section of a manuscript and not put together an entire review. So, it has helped with getting people on board. Dr. Don Dizon: Well, the other thing I thought was really interesting about the process is when you're invited to do an Education Session at ASCO, you're either invited as a faculty speaker or as the chair of the session. And the responsibility of the chair is to ensure that it flows well and that the talks are succinct based on what the agenda or the objectives were as defined by the education committee for that specific group. But that was it. So really being named “Chair” was sort of an honor, an honorific. It really didn't come with responsibility. So, we use the Ed Book as a way to say, “As chair of the session, it is your responsibility to ensure A, a manuscript comes to me, but B, that the content of that paper harmonizes and is accurate.” And it was very rare, but Nate, I think we got dragged into a couple of times where the accuracy of the manuscript was really called into question by the chair. And those were always very, very tricky discussions because everyone that gets invited to ASCO is a recognized leader in their field. Some of us, especially, I would probably say, dating back 10 years from today, the data behind Standards of Care were not necessarily evidence-based. So, there were a lot of opinion-based therapies. You know, maybe not so much in the medical side, but certainly some of it. But when you went to, you know, surgical treatments and maybe even radiotherapy treatments, it was really based on, “My experience at my center is this and this is why I do what I do.” But those kinds of things ended up being some of the more challenging things to handle as an editor. Dr. Nathan Pennell: And those are the– I'll use “fun” in a broad sense. You know, every once in a while, you get an article where it really does take a lot of hands-on work from the editor to work with the author to try to revise it and make it a suitable academic manuscript. But you know what? I can't think, at least in recent years, of any manuscripts that we turned down. They just sometimes needed a little TLC. Dr. Don Dizon: Yeah. And I think the other important thing it reminds me of is how great it was that I wasn't doing this by myself. Because it was so great to be able to reach out to you and say, “Can you give me your take on this paper?” Or, “Can you help me just join a conference call with the authors to make sure that we're on the same page?” And then on the rare example where we were going to reject a paper, it was really important that we, as the editorial team, and I include our ASCO shepherder, through the whole process. We had to all agree that this was not salvageable. Fortunately, it happened very rarely. But I've got to say, not doing this job alone was one of the more important facets of being the EIC of ASCO's Educational Book. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Well, it's nice to hear you say that. I definitely felt that this was a partnership, you know, it was a labor of love. So, I want to go to what I consider sort of the third major pillar of the changes to the Ed Book during your tenure, and that was the introduction of a whole new kind of manuscript. So up to, I don't know, maybe seven or eight years ago, all the articles were authored just by people who were presenting at the Annual Meeting. And then you had an idea to introduce invited manuscripts. So take me through that. Dr. Don Dizon: Yeah, well, you know, again, it went to this sort of, what can people who are being asked to sort of lead ASCO for that year, what can they demonstrate as sort of a more tangible contribution to the Society and to oncology in general? And I think that was the impetus to use the Ed Book for everyone who was in a leadership position to make their mark. That said, I was here, and I was either president of the society or I was Education Program Chair or Scientific Program Chair, and they got to select an article type that was not being covered in the annual meeting and suggest the authors and work with those authors to construct a manuscript. Never did any one of those folks suggest themselves, which I thought was fascinating. They didn't say, “I want to be the one to write this piece,” because this was never meant to be a presidential speech or a commemorative speech or opportunity for them as leaders. But we wanted to ensure that whatever passion they had within oncology was represented in the book. And again, it was this sort of sense of, I want everyone to look at the Ed Book and see themselves in it and see what they contributed. And that was really important for those who were really shepherding each Annual Meeting each year for ASCO that they had the opportunity to do that. And I was really pleased that leadership really took to that idea and were very excited about bringing ideas and also author groups into the Educational Book who would not have had the opportunity otherwise. I thought that was just really nice. It was about inclusiveness and just making sure that people had the opportunity to say, “If you want to participate, we want you to participate.” Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, I agree. I think the ASCO leadership jumped on this and continues to still really appreciate the opportunity to be able to kind of invite someone on a topic that's meaningful to them. I think we've tried to work in things that incorporate the presidential theme each year in our invited manuscript, so it really allows them to put kind of a stamp on the flavor of each edition. And the numbers reflect that these tend to be among our more highly read articles as well. Dr. Don Dizon: You know, looking back on what we did together, that was something I'm really, really quite proud of, that we were able to sort of help the Educational Book evolve that way. Dr. Nathan Pennell: I agree. You brought up briefly a few minutes ago about social media and its role over time. I think when we started in 2012, I had just joined Twitter now X in 2011, and I think we were both sort of early adopters in the social media. Do you feel like social media has had a role in the growth of the Ed Book or is this something that you think we can develop further? Dr. Don Dizon: When we were doing Ed Book together, professional social media was actually a quite identified space. You know, we were all on the same platform. We analyzed what the outcomes were on that platform and our communities gathered on that platform. So, it was a really good place to highlight what we were publishing, especially as we went to continuous publishing.  I don't remember if it was you or me, but we even started asking our authors for a tweet and those tweets needed work. It was you. It was you or I would actually lay in these tweets to say, “Yeah, we need to just, you know, work on this.” But I think it's harder today. There's no one preferred platform. Alternate platforms are still evolving. So, I think there are opportunities there. The question is: Is that opportunity meaningful enough for the Ed Book to demonstrate its return on an investment, for example? What I always thought about social media, and it's still true today, is that it will get eyes on whatever you're looking at far beyond who you intended to see it. So, you know, your tweets regarding a phase 3 clinical trial in lung cancer, which were so informative, were reaching me, who was not a lung oncologist who doesn't even see lung cancer and getting me more interested in finding that article and more and more pointing to the Educational Book content that speaks to that piece, you know. And I think coupling an impression of the data, associating that with something that is freely accessed is, I think, a golden opportunity not only for our colleagues, but also for anyone who's interested in a topic. Whether you are diagnosed with that cancer or you are taking care of someone with that cancer, or you heard about that cancer, there are people who would like to see information that is relevant and embedded and delivered by people who know what they're talking about. And I think our voices on social media are important because of it. And I think that's where the contribution is. So, if we had to see what the metric was for any social media efforts, it has to be more of the click rates, not just by ASCO members, but the click rates across societies and across countries. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yeah, social media is, I mean, obviously evolving quite a bit in the last couple of years. But I do know that in terms the alt metrics for the track access through social media and online, the ones that are shared online by the authors, by the Ed Book team, do seem to get more attention. I think a lot of people don't like to just sit with a print journal anymore or an email table of contents for specific journals. People find these articles that are meaningful to them through their network and oftentimes that is online on social media. Dr. Don Dizon: Yes, 100%. And you know what I think we should encourage people to do is look at the source. And if the Ed Book becomes a source of information, I think that will be a plus to the conversations in our world. We're still dealing with a place where, depending on who sponsored the trial, whether it was an industry-sponsored trial, whether it was NCI sponsored or sponsored by the National Institutes of Health, for example, access to the primary data sets may or may not be available across the world, but the Ed Book is. And if the Ed Book can summarize that data and use terms and words that are accessible no matter what your grade level of education is. If we can explain the graphs and the figures in a way that people can actually easily more understand it. If there's a way that we structure our conversations in the Ed Book so that the plethora of inclusion/exclusion criteria are summarized and simplified, then I think we can achieve a place where good information becomes more accessible, and we can point to a summary of the source data in places where the source is not available. Dr. Nathan Pennell: One of the other things that I continue to be surprised at how popular these podcasts are. And that gives you an opportunity pretty much the opposite. Instead of sort of a nugget that directs you to the source material, you've got a more in-depth discussion of the manuscript. And so, I'm delighted that we have our own podcast. For many years, the Ed Book would sort of do a sort of a “Weird Al takeover” of the ASCO Daily News Podcast for a couple of episodes around the Annual Meeting, and I think those were always really popular enough that we were able to argue that we deserved our own podcast. And I'm really looking forward to having these in-depth discussions with authors. Dr. Don Dizon: It's an amazing evolution of where the Ed Book has gone, right? We took it from print only, societally only, to something that is now accessed worldwide via PubMed. We took it from book to fully online print. And now I think making the content live is a natural next step. So, I applaud you for doing the podcast and giving people an opportunity actually to discuss what their article discusses. And if there's a controversial point, giving them the freedom and the opportunity to sort of give more nuanced views on what may not be something that there's 100% consensus over. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Yes. Well, I hope other people enjoy these as well. Just want to highlight a few of the things that have happened just in the couple years since you stepped down as editor-in-chief. One of them, and I don't know if you noticed, but last year we started adding manuscripts from the ASCO thematic meetings, so ASCO GI and ASCO GU, something we had certainly talked about in the past, but had lacked bandwidth to really do. And they seem to be pretty widely accessed. Dr. Don Dizon: That's fantastic. Yes, I do remember talking about the coverage of the thematic meetings and you're right, this takes a long time to sort of concentrate on the Annual Meeting. It may seem like everything happens in the span of like eight weeks. Dr. Nathan Pennell: It does feel like that sometimes. Dr. Don Dizon: Right? But this is actually something that starts a year before, once the education program is set. We're in the room when they set it. But then it's really chasing down manuscripts and then making sure that they're peer reviewed because the peer review is still really important, and then making sure that any revisions are made before it's finalized and goes to press. That is a many months process. So, when we're trying to introduce, “Oh, we should also do ASCO GU or-,” the question was, how do you want to do that given this very, very involved process going forward? So, I'm glad you were able to figure it out. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Well, it's challenging. I don't think people realize quite the compressed timeline for these. You know, the Education Session and authors and invited faculty are picked in the fall, and then basically you have to start turning in your manuscripts in February, March of the following year. And so, it's a really tight turnaround for this. When we talk about the ASCO thematic meetings, it's an even tighter window. Dr. Don Dizon: Right, exactly. Dr. Nathan Pennell: And so, it's challenging to get that moving, but I was really, really proud that we were able to pull that off. Dr. Don Dizon: Well, congratulations again. And I think that is a necessary step, because so much of what's going on in the various disease management sites is only covered cursorily through the Annual Meeting itself. I mean, there's just so much science breaking at any one time that I think if we want to comprehensively catalog the Year in Review in oncology, it kind of behooves us to do that. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Some other things that are coming up because we now have manuscripts that are going to be coming in year-round, and just to kind of make it easier on the editorial staff, we're going to be forming an editorial board. And in addition to our pool of reviewers who get ASCO points, please feel free to go online to the ASCO volunteer portal and sign up if you are interested in participating. So, moving forward, I'm really excited to see where things are going to go. Dr. Don Dizon: Well, that's great. That's great. And I do remember talking about whether or not we needed to have an editorial board. At least when I was there, having this carried by three people was always better than having it carried by one person. And I think as you expand the potential for submissions, it will be very helpful to have that input for sure. And then it gives another opportunity for more members to get involved in ASCO as well. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Absolutely. People want involvement, and so happy to provide that. Dr. Don Dizon: Yes. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Is there anything we didn't cover that you would like to mention before we wrap up? Dr. Don Dizon: Well, I will say this, that ASCO and through its publications not only has had this real emphasis on multidisciplinary management of cancers, especially where it was relevant, but it also always had a stand to ensure representation was front and center and who wrote for us. And I think every president, every chair that I've worked with naturally embraced that idea of representation. And I think it has been a distinct honor to say that during my tenure as EIC, we have always had a plethora of voices, of authors from different countries, of genders, that have participated in the construction of those books. And it stands as a testament that we are a global community and we will always be one. Dr. Nathan Pennell: Well, thank you for that. And I'm happy to continue that as we move forward. Well, Don, thank you. It's been great speaking with you. You played such a pivotal role in the Ed Book's evolution and I'm so glad you were able to join me for our inaugural episode. Dr. Don Dizon: Well, I'm just tickled that you asked me to be your first guest. Thank you so much, Nate. Dr. Nathan Pennell: And I also want to thank our listeners for joining us today. We hope you'll join us again for more insightful views on topics you'll be hearing at the Education Sessions from ASCO meetings throughout the year, as well as our periodic deep dives on advances that are shaping modern oncology. Have a great day. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. Follow today's speakers:   Dr. Nathan Pennell  @n8pennell @n8pennell.bsky.social   Dr. Don Dizon @drdondizon.bsky.social  Follow ASCO on social media:   @ASCO on X (formerly Twitter)   ASCO on Bluesky  ASCO on Facebook   ASCO on LinkedIn   Disclosures:  Dr. Nathan Pennell:      Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Lilly, Cota Healthcare, Merck, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Genentech, Amgen, G1 Therapeutics, Pfizer, Boehringer Ingelheim, Viosera, Xencor, Mirati Therapeutics, Janssen Oncology, Sanofi/Regeneron     Research Funding (Inst): Genentech, AstraZeneca, Merck, Loxo, Altor BioScience, Spectrum Pharmaceuticals, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Jounce Therapeutics, Mirati Therapeutics, Heat Biologics, WindMIL, Sanofi  Dr. Don Dizon: Stock and Other Ownership Interests: Midi, Doximity Honoraria: UpToDate, American Cancer Society Consulting or Advisory Role: AstraZeneca, Clovis Oncology, Kronos Bio, Immunogen Research Funding (Institution): Bristol-Myers Squibb          

Dr Aditya Bardia, Professor Giuseppe Curigliano, Dr Hope Rugo and Dr Antonio C Wolff share their perspectives on the management of HER2-low breast cancer and the potential role of emerging data from SABCS 2024.

Host: Charles Turck, PharmD, BCPS, BCCCP Guest: Hope S. Rugo, MD, FASCO While endocrine therapy (ET) and CDK4/6 inhibitors are the standard for treating ER+/HER2- metastatic breast cancer, patients can become resistant to ET. To overcome these resistance mechanisms, the ELEVATE study examines whether combining elacestrant with ET could help address this unmet need. Here to share the preliminary findings from ELEVATE with Dr. Charles Turck is lead study investigator Dr. Hope Rugo. She's also the Winterhof Distinguished Professor of Breast Oncology and the Director of Breast Oncology and Clinical Trials Education at the University of California, San Francisco Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center.

Drs. Hope Rugo, Diana Lam, Sheri Shen, and Mitchell Elliot discuss key strategies and emerging technology in early-stage breast cancer survivorship, including mitigating risk through lifestyle modification, surveillance for distant recurrence, and optimization of breast imaging. TRANSCRIPT  Dr. Hope Rugo: Hello, I'm Dr. Hope Rugo, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of breast oncology and clinical trials education at the University of California San Francisco's Comprehensive Cancer Center. I'm also an associate editor of the ASCO Educational Book.   There are currently about 4 million breast cancer survivors in the United States, according to the American Cancer Society, and this number is expected to rise as more women are being diagnosed at early stages of this disease, thanks to advances in early detection and the delivery of more effective adjuvant and neoadjuvant treatment leading to successful outcomes.  In today's episode, we'll be discussing current and emerging clinical strategies for the survivorship period, focusing on a multidisciplinary approach. Joining me for this discussion are Drs. Mitchell Elliott, Sherry Shen, and Diana Lam, who co-authored, along with others, a recently published article in the 2024 ASCO Educational Book titled, “Enhancing Early-Stage Breast Cancer Survivorship: Evidence-Based Strategies, Surveillance Testing, and Imaging Guidelines.”  They also addressed this topic in an Education Session presented at the recent ASCO Annual Meeting. Dr. Elliott is a drug development fellow and clinician scientist trainee at the Princess Margaret Cancer Center in Toronto, Canada. Dr. Sherry Shen is a breast oncologist and assistant attending at the Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York. Dr. Diana Lam is a breast radiologist and associate professor at the University of Washington Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center in Seattle.  Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode.  It's great to have you all on the podcast today. Thank you for being here. Dr. Mitchell Elliott: Thank you so much.  Dr. Sherry Shen: Thank you.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Let's go into the meat of the article now and try to provide some interesting answers to questions that I think come up for clinicians all the time in practice. Your article points out that addressing the challenges in early-stage breast cancer survivorship requires a comprehensive, patient-centered approach, focusing on mitigating risk through lifestyle modification, surveillance for distant recurrence, and optimization of breast imaging.   Dr. Shen, surveillance can facilitate the early detection of recurrence, but ultimately the goal is to prevent recurrence. Lifestyle modifications are a key component of survivorship care, and there are many interventions in this context. Could you summarize the best approaches for mitigating risk of breast cancer recurrence through lifestyle modification and how we might accomplish that in clinical practice? Dr. Sherry Shen: Absolutely. This is a question that we get asked a lot by our breast cancer patients who are so interested in what changes they can make within their lifestyle to improve their breast cancer outcomes. I always tell them that there are three main things, three main lifestyle factors that can improve their breast cancer outcomes.  Firstly, enough physical activity. So the threshold for physical activity seems to be around 150 minutes of a moderately vigorous level per week. So moderately vigorous means something that gets the heart rate up, like walking quickly on rolling hills, for example. Or patients can do a vigorous level of physical activity for at least 75 minutes per week. Vigorous meaning playing a sport, swimming, for example, running, something that really gets the heart rate up.   The second really important lifestyle modification is limiting alcohol use. Keeping alcohol to less than 4 to 7 drinks per week is particularly important for breast cancer outcomes, especially in women who are postmenopausal and have hormone receptor positive diseases. That's where the strongest connection is seen. Lastly, maintaining a healthy weight. We know that women who gain more than 5% to 10% of their diagnosis body weight have a higher risk of breast cancer recurrence and worse breast cancer outcomes. That, of course, is easier said than done, and it's primarily through dietary modifications.  I always tell women that in terms of specific things in the diet, it's really hard to study at a population level because diets vary so much between patients. But what is really important is consuming a plant-forward whole foods diet that prioritizes nutrients and the quality of the diet. A little bit more specifically, it's important to limit the amount of red and processed meats in the diet, really limit the amount of sugar sweetened beverages, ideally to cut that out of the diet entirely, and to consume an appropriate amount of dietary fiber in the range of 20 to 30 grams per day. Those are more specific things that have been associated with breast cancer outcomes.  Dr. Hope Rugo: This is such helpful, practical information for clinicians and for patients. Thank you.  But let's move on to another area, surveillance testing for distant recurrence, an area of great interest, in fact highlighted in a special session at ASCO 2024. In clinic, we've seen that many cancer survivors expressed surprise at the less intensive approach to surveillance testing for recurrence, with the whole idea that if you detected it earlier, the outcome would be better. But it does raise an important question. What is the optimal strategy for monitoring for recurrence? And importantly, can early detection through surveillance testing impact outcome?   Dr. Elliot, your research has focused on ctDNA surveillance and the evolving role of minimal residual disease, or MRD. Can you comment on the current surveillance guidelines for distant recurrence, and then, how we really define true MRD?  Dr. Mitchell Elliott: Those are excellent questions, and I think leaving that Education Session at ASCO left us with even more questions than answers with the current role of MRD in this setting. I think a lot of this comes from wanting to help patients and trying to identify the patients at highest risk of cancer recurrence, with the goal of intervening with effective targeted therapy to prevent metastatic relapse.  Current international guidelines in the United States done by ASCO and the NCCN, as well as ESMO guidelines in Europe and even our local Canadian guidelines, do not suggest that patients undergo routine screening in asymptomatic individuals, whether it be blood work or routine radiographic imaging, as there were some studies that were done in the late 1990s and early 2000s that didn't actually show benefit and actually maybe favored a little bit of harm in these situations. So these recommendations are based on these initial studies. However, we know that in the last 10, 15 years, even 20 years, that breast cancer and the landscape of breast cancer has changed significantly with the introduction of our typical standard classification of breast cancer, the emergence of HER2 positive breast cancer, and thus triple negative breast cancer, which was not actually routine standard testing at the time of these studies, and also the most effective therapies we have to date, including immunotherapy, HER2 targeted therapy and the advent of antibody drug conjugates. We're at prime time right now to potentially revisit this question, but the question is, do we have the right technology to do so? And this is where the circulating tumor DNA has really emerged as a potential option, given its minimally invasive opportunity with a standard blood test to actually identify tumor specific DNA that is highly predictive of distant metastatic recurrence or patient recurrence in general.   The evolving role – we still have a lot of questions in this setting. There have been a lot of retrospective analyses of cohort studies and clinical trials that have shown that modern fit for purpose MRD based tests actually have a high positive predictive value at identifying patients with imminent risk of breast cancer recurrence. The most important thing in this setting is that there are different fit for purpose tests. The initial ctDNA assays were actually genotyping based assays, which look for the presence of mutations in the blood. But we know that the sensitivity of these assays is quite challenging at the level of ctDNA required to actually diagnose patients with very small amounts of residual disease. So the fit for purpose MRD assays are now emerging on the market. And we have several that are in clinical development, several that are in research development, but the high specificity in the setting is very important, which we're seeing some evolving and emerging technologies in this setting. We really don't have the data about if these interventions, so if we were to effectively deploy these MRD based ctDNA assays prospectively in patients, if they will actually improve patient outcomes, and how do we correct and address lead time bias, which might potentially affect study results?  Also, the important thing to think about in this setting is if we are able to find something, we also should have an effective therapy to actually intervene for patients, because the outcome in these trials will actually be dependent not only on identifying early breast cancer occurrence, but also delivering the best targeted intervention for that individual patient, which currently we don't understand fully.   Another really interesting thing is there was a trial, the ZEST trial, as many of our listeners may know, that was randomizing patients with patients with ctDNA detected in the adjuvant setting were randomized through either intervention or standard follow up. And going forward, is it actually an opportunity, or is it possible to actually randomize patients knowing that they have a near 100% likelihood of breast cancer recurrence to observation? So these are several ongoing questions that we have to address as we move forward to deploying this technology in the clinical space.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Really fascinating, and thanks for sharing that. I think really broad and helpful information on these ctDNA [assays] and also our surveillance guidelines, which I think really suggests that you only do surveillance for cause, other than looking for local recurrence and new cancers with breast imaging. So it is really an interesting time where we're seeing evolving technologies and evolving understanding of how we can best do this kind of testing when there are so many different assays out there. I think it's going to take a little while. And also understanding, as you pointed out, trying to target treatments when patients have emerging ctDNA to mutations. And we just have no idea yet if we're going to ultimately change outcomes. This is really helpful, and I think we'll give people a good understanding of where to think about this right now, what to look for in the future.  Now, of course, it's a nice segue into the idea of breast imaging for early breast cancer survivors because that's where we do have data. Dr. Lam, let's talk about how we optimize breast imaging in early-stage breast cancer survivors, because there's such a wide variation in breast cancer imaging survival protocols between different centers and different countries. And of course, here our group is representing two countries and really a broad geographic area. So some of the variations are when to do imaging in terms of frequency, when to start imaging and what kind of examination to do, screening versus diagnostic, MRI versus mammogram. And of course, there are some emerging imaging techniques as well. Could you tell us a little bit about the variation in imaging surveillance protocols in survivors, and the challenges and what you recommend?  Dr. Diana Lam: First off, I want to say that surveillance mammography saves lives and annual intervals are uniformly recommended among both national and international guidelines. However, we know that in practice there are variations in imaging surveillance protocols, with approximately 40% of sites performing imaging at more frequent or six-month intervals for at least one to two years. In addition, there's variation in what type of mammogram someone gets in terms of the indication. They might be getting initial diagnostic mammograms for a short period of time or screening mammograms. However, overall, there is limited evidence in improved outcomes in women getting a diagnostic versus a screening exam for asymptomatic surveillance. In addition, there is limited evidence in increased frequency of surveillance, for example, every six months versus one year.  The real difference between a screen and a diagnostic mammogram, if someone is asymptomatic in the surveillance population, primarily has to do with workflow. For screening examinations, the imaging is generally viewed after a patient leaves the facility, and it might actually take days, maybe even weeks, for the results to be delivered to the patient. In addition, if more imaging is needed, the patient will need to return back to the facility, which does diagnostic imaging work for us to work up this finding. And this practice approach causes diagnostic delays in care. It also disproportionately affects Black and Hispanic women. For diagnostic mammography surveillance, there's generally real time interpretation with immediate results. However, there are both access and scheduling limitations, as not all facilities actually perform these types of examinations. There may also be out of pocket costs which are increased due to the diagnostic indication of this exam.  So  what we found, which is an approach that can aid in minimizing patient costs and decreasing these health disparities, is to provide immediate interpretations of these screening mammography surveillance exams, or so-called online screens where diagnostic workup and potential biopsy can be performed on the same day. Dr. Hope Rugo: This is all very interesting, but what do we tell our patients? How do we, as oncologists, decide on how frequently to get mammograms? Should we be getting diagnostic or screening? And do we sequence MRI with mammograms for everybody or just for certain patients? And then some patients will say, “Well, my doctor does an ultrasound to mammogram.” We don't do that for screening. When do you recommend that? Dr. Diana Lam: We do know that compared to people without a personal history of breast cancer, surveillance mammography is actually less sensitive. It's only about 70% versus 87% or so percent sensitive with over four times more interval cancers or cancers diagnosed after a negative surveillance mammogram compared to the general screening population without a personal history of breast cancer. In addition, about 35% of invasive second breast cancers are actually interval cancers or those not detected by surveillance mammography. However, there is currently no guideline consensus on supplemental breast imaging or additional imaging beyond surveillance mammography. Contrast-enhanced breast MRI is most often recommended, particularly for patients who are already at high risk for breast cancer, such as those with genetic mutations, or patients who have had primary breast cancer diagnosed at a younger age to less than 50 years old, or those patients who have dense breast tissue on mammography.  There is a question about whole breast ultrasound and this is generally not specified or recommended unless the patient is unable to undergo breast MRI. This is primarily due to the number of false positive examinations or findings that are seen that do not amount to breast cancer. We do have the opportunity here to tailor surveillance imaging by selecting people who are at high risk for interval second breast cancers in order to decrease harms and improve patient outcomes. We know that there are a number of factors such as primary breast cancer subtype which affects second breast cancer risk. We know that women who have ER negative and/or hormonal negative breast cancers have significantly higher recurrence rates within the five years of treatment with no significant difference after that 5 years. We also know that there are certain factors such as imaging factors where patients are more likely to develop an interval second cancer with mammography surveillance only. And these are factors such as if their primary breast cancer was hormone negative, if they had an interval presentation to start, or if they had breast conservation without radiation therapy. So, in terms of the future of local breast imaging surveillance, this can be improved with upfront risk prediction and stratification based on the patient, primary breast cancer and treatment factors, as well as looking at imaging test performance to optimally guide the modality and frequency of surveillance imaging.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Really interesting.   Well, thank you all three of you for sharing your valuable insights. This has been so interesting and a great addition to the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I would encourage everyone to actually read the article as well because there's some really great tables and interesting information there that of course we don't have time to cover, but thank you, all three of you.  Dr. Diana Lam: Thank you. Dr. Mitchell Elliott: Thank you for having us. Dr. Hope Rugo: And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. You'll find a link to the article that you can read and look at and cut out the tables discussed today in the transcript of this episode. I encourage all of our listeners also to check out the 2024 ASCO Educational Book where there is an incredible wealth of useful information. Finally, if you value the insights that you've heard today and here on ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again.   Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinion of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Follow today's speakers:   Dr. Hope Rugo   @hoperugo   @MitchElliott18 Dr. Sherry Shen @SherryShenMD    Follow ASCO on social media:       @ASCO on Twitter     ASCO on Facebook     ASCO on LinkedIn        Disclosures:      Dr. Hope Rugo:    Honoraria: Mylan/Viatris, Chugai Pharma Consulting or Advisory Role: Napo Pharmaceuticals, Puma Biotechnology, Sanofi Research Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Merck, Daiichi Sankyo, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Hoffmann-LaRoche AG/Genentech, Inc., Stemline Therapeutics, Ambryx   Dr. Diana Lam: No relationships to disclose   Dr. Sherry Shen: Honoraria: MJH Life Sciences Research Funding (Inst.): Merck, Sermonix Pharmaceuticals   Dr. Mitchell Elliott:  No relationships to disclose

In this discussion with Dr. Hope Rugo, we covered her study Capitello-291, which led to the approval of Capivasertib in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer with AKT1, PTEN, and PIK3CA mutations, which are seen in 40-50% of the cases. We touched base on sequencing of this therapy, and important clinical pearls around the side effect management associated with this drug.

Drs. Hope Rugo and Sara Tolaney discuss the promise of antibody-drug conjugates (ADCs) in the treatment of breast cancer, highlighting key trials that shed light on matching the right ADC to the right patient in the right setting. They also explore how combinations and sequencing of ADCs can augment their efficacy, the mechanisms of resistance, and the future potential of biomarkers to predict patient response. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Hope Rugo: Hello, I'm Dr. Hope Rugo, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of breast oncology and clinical trials education at the University of California, San Francisco's Comprehensive Cancer Center. Antibody-drug conjugates, or ADCs, are rapidly changing the treatment landscape for patients with breast cancer. ADCs consist of antibodies that target tumor-specific antigens on the cell surface, chemical linkers, and cytotoxic payloads that can act powerfully to kill cancer cells. On today's episode, we'll be discussing advances in research to match the right ADC to the right patients and in the right setting. We'll also talk about the next steps, assessing how combinations and sequencing of ADCs can augment their efficacy, improve options for patients, and identify biomarkers in the future to predict how patients will respond so that we can match the right treatment to the right patient and their tumor. We need to gain a better understanding of the mechanisms of resistance that occur upfront as well as under the pressure of treatment.  Joining me for this important discussion is Dr. Sara Tolaney. Dr. Tolaney is an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School, associate director of the Susan Smith Center for Women's Cancer, and chief of the Division of Breast Oncology at the Dana-Farber Cancer Institute in Boston.  You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of this episode and disclosures of all guests on the podcast are available at asco.org/DNpod. Dr. Tolaney, we're delighted to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for being here. Dr. Sara Tolaney: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to the discussion. Dr. Hope Rugo: Great! So, we'll move forward, and because we're friends and colleagues, I'm going to refer to you as Sara, and I'm Hope, since we'll dispense with formalities in our discussion.  A lot of the talks that we give about ADCs start out with “a revolution in breast cancer therapy.” And indeed, this is a really exciting time with ADCs as treatment for breast cancer, and we're rapidly moving these agents into earlier disease settings. Can you tell us a little bit about the possibilities and challenges of using ADCs for the treatment of breast cancer today? Dr. Sara Tolaney: It's interesting that you say antibody-drug conjugates as revolutionizing outcomes of breast cancer, which I think is true. But on the flip side, I think it's also bringing up a lot of questions about how to use them, when to use them, and how to manage side effects. So there are a lot of good strengths for these antibody-drug conjugates, but a lot of unknowns that we're still trying to figure out. We had an older antibody-drug conjugate T-DM1 that we were all very familiar with that for years had been a treatment that we used very commonly in metastatic disease and now even use in early breast cancer, and I think has changed outcomes for patients. But over time, we've been able to develop newer antibody-drug conjugates as the technology has really evolved so that these agents now are able to deliver a lot of chemotherapy into a cancer cell. We're seeing very high drug-to-antibody ratios, and we're also seeing that these drugs can function via bystander effect, whereas T-DM1, for example, was not able to do that. But our newer ADCs, like sacituzumab govitecan or trastuzumab deruxtecan, are agents that do allow chemotherapy to get into that cancer cell, but also to get into neighboring cells.  And I think the technology evolution in being able to build these so-called next-generation ADCs has allowed for really unprecedented efficacy that we've not seen before. And it's also allowed us to develop these drugs in a way that's been different. Originally, we were developing T-DM1 to turn off HER2 signaling and to deliver chemotherapy into a HER2 cell. At least that's what we thought originally. And now we're really evolving so that we can just find a tiny bit of protein on a cancer cell and use it as a target, really in a subtype-agnostic way. And I think it's just a different way of thinking about how to use these agents to really deliver a lot of chemotherapy into cancer cells and have very robust efficacy. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, it is fascinating that some of the suppositions that we made with the first ADC don't seem to really hold true as well. And maybe they hold true in varying levels for the different ADCs. For example, this bystander effect is thought to allow us to target cells that have very low expression of the receptor that can be internalized even lower than our ability to detect these receptors by immunohistochemistry. And maybe we'll talk about that in a little bit.   But first, you mentioned already sacituzumab and trastuzumab deruxtecan, the ADCs that are currently approved for breast cancer. But can you tell us a little more about those ADCs and the key trials that have led to approval of these targeted agents? Dr. Sara Tolaney: Yes, I think when we first saw the data that came out with T-DXd and DESTINY-Breast01, I think my jaw dropped because I had never seen a waterfall plot like that. This was a single-arm study that looked at T-DXd in patients with very heavily pretreated metastatic HER2-positive breast cancer and saw very high response rates of over 60% and a clinical benefit rate of almost 98%, meaning that almost every single patient who got the drug and had a median of six prior lines of therapy had reduction in tumor size. And that's unreal. I think it was revolutionary in the sense that we had never seen that kind of activity in such a pretreated population. The agent was studied in other registration trials, DESTINY-Breast03, which looked at T-DXd and compared it head to head with T-DM1 in a predominantly second-line metastatic HER2-positive population, and here, again, unprecedented results. I've never seen a p value like that or a hazard ratio of, again unreal, of a little under 0.3 and seeing a 28-month PFS with T-DXd relative to just a little under 7 months PFS with T-DM1. We have never seen patients with metastatic HER2-positive breast cancer have a PFS that long. Even in CLEOPATRA, it's a little under 19 months in the first-line setting, where people were predominantly naïve to HER2-directed therapies. This, again, is really changing outcomes for patients.   But then, I think, when we go to the next step, we studied T-DXd in patients with HER2-positive breast cancer and it had again these unprecedented results. But there was some early data suggesting that it could even work in tumors that weren't truly HER2-positive but what we call HER2-low, meaning that they weren't HER2/3+, they weren't HER2-0 but they were 1+ to 2+ and not FISH amplified. And so even with a little bit of protein there, they were seeing activity in the early phase studies and so it led to DESTINY-Breast04, which compared T-DXd to chemotherapy of physician's choice in people who had had one or two prior lines of chemotherapy in the metastatic setting. It was predominantly geared to look at outcomes in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer. But there was a small group of 58 patients with triple-negative disease that were also included in that trial. And here again, a very unprecedented outcome seeing a response rate of about 50%, which, again, we never see in pretreated hormone receptor-positive disease. And a PFS of 10 months, and again, these are people who already had one or two prior lines of chemotherapy. So it's, again, really changing outcomes. And so now I think it leads us to a lot of other questions that we are addressing in trials - can this drug work even if the tumor has maybe no HER2 expression, what about HER2-0, what about HER2-ultra low, meaning a little bit of staining but not quite 1+. And so these are questions that I think we will need to address and there are studies that will help us address that. On the flip side, we saw sacituzumab govitecan get developed in breast cancer. Initially, we saw very impressive results from a single arm study of sacituzumab in metastatic triple-negative disease where we saw response rates of a little over 30%. These are patients who were very heavily pretreated with metastatic triple negative breast cancer where, unfortunately, response rates end up being in a 5% range so it was a home run in that setting. So that led to the ASCENT trial, which compared sacituzumab govitecan to treatment of physician's choice therapy and that study really enrolled people who were, in essence, second line and beyond in the metastatic triple-negative setting and showed almost triple progression free survival, in essence, doubled overall survival. So again, very robust efficacy leading to confirming its approval. And then we saw data from TROPiCS-02, which looked at sacituzumab in metastatic hormone receptor-positive disease and also showed improvements in both progression free and overall survival. And this was in pre-treated populations of 2 to 4 prior lines of chemotherapy. These agents, again, have established robust efficacy, and so now the idea is can we move these drugs earlier in development into earlier line settings and can we even move these agents into the early disease setting and potentially cure more patients? So hopefully, we'll figure out ways to make that happen. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, that was a great summary of this exciting data. And I think we really got an idea of what waterfall plots could tell us from DESTINY-Breast01 where you could count the number of patients whose cancers grew with therapy on one hand. It's been a huge advance. I think it's where we get this “revolution” even in patients with a median of 4 lines of prior chemo, and, in the ASCENT trial, we were able to see this improvement and survival in the hardest-treated subset of metastatic breast cancer triple negative disease. And then the remarkable data in HER2-positive and HER2-low breast cancer hormone receptor positive disease. We're really covering all of the subset of breast cancers.   When we introduce new therapies though, and of course, our interest is moving them earlier as lines of therapy in the metastatic setting, we really have to think about the adverse events and how those are going to affect their patients, and balancing the risk benefit ratio. Obviously when the benefit is so huge, we're more thinking about how do we proactively manage these side effects, educate our patients, use prophylaxis when possible. Can you share with us some of your insights on management strategies for toxicities?  Dr. Sara Tolaney: You bring up a very good point, and I will say the ADCs were designed with the idea being that we could deliver a ton of chemotherapy into a cancer cell. So obviously, my hope had been that we weren't going to see a lot of chemotherapy-like side effects because the goal was to try to spare normal cells of these side effects. But unfortunately, we do see that these agents do have real toxicities, and I think that is an important message. So, for example, with sacituzumab, for people who have hair going into it, they will lose their hair during the course of treatment, and so that's important to make patients aware of. It can lower blood counts, and about 50% of patients who are on sacituzumab will end up needing growth factor support while they're on treatment. So, that is again something that needs to be monitored and managed. But usually, we're pretty good at managing neutropenia, and with the growth factor support, I find that it actually works really well.  Another thing with sacituzumab is the potential risk of diarrhea, but most of the diarrhea is low-grade diarrhea. It's rare that you get someone who has high-grade diarrhea with sacituzumab. Usually, I find it works to just instruct patients to use loperamide as needed. And again, usually that works well. And certainly when needed, dose modification can also help with these side effects and so it is important to keep in mind that this is another option. With T-DXd, one thing that we do have to keep in mind as an unusual side effect is the potential risk of interstitial lung disease. We see that in about 10% to 15% of patients getting T-DXd. That is something that we do have to be very mindful of. For the most part it is low-grade ILD. But there are rare occasions where there have been deaths from ILD. And we're seeing with some of the newer trials, the death rate is usually under 1%, but it is a real potential risk. And so it is really important to counsel patients when getting T-DXd about this potential side effect, that way they are good about communicating with you if they get any new symptoms, such as shortness of breath or dry cough, to get you aware of it and can work it up and get imaging certainly if that occurs.  And then I think the management for ILD is a little unique and a little different truthfully than the way we manage pneumonitis from other drugs. Normally, when I am treating patients who develop pneumonitis, even if it is mildly symptomatic, we often will hold treatment, give steroids, and rechallenge them when it gets better. But with T-DXd, if anyone develops symptomatic pneumonitis, you actually have to permanently discontinue the T-DXd per the guidelines because we just don't know the safety of being able to rechallenge that patient once that pneumonitis resolves. For grade 1 ILD, meaning someone who has, for example, ground glass changes seen on imaging but doesn't have any symptoms, you have to hold the drug and wait until those imaging findings resolve and then you can restart. I usually do treat grade 1 ILD patients with steroids with the hope being that maybe it will allow for the pneumonitis to resolve more quickly, although in truth I don't know if that's the case. I have just taken that approach because I don't like leaving patients off the drug for too long if not needed. Again, I typically treat them with steroids, reimage in three to four weeks, and see if I'm able to restart. If they resolve within 28 days, you can restart at the same dose. If it takes longer to resolve, you need to dose modify.  And then I think the other big thing with T-DXd is to know that it is categorized as a highly emetogenic agent. Most of us are using three-drug prophylaxis, which I think works really well. It is also important to realize that there can be some delayed nausea, which is a little unusual with some of our other agents. And so to warn patients about that and I find that use of olanzapine or ondansetron for the delayed nausea tends to work pretty well.  Hope, do you have any pearls for us? Obviously, you are very experienced in using these agents; are there any things you would recommend for the management of ADCs?  Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, it's such a great question and an important area because, particularly as we are using these agents earlier, we really need to have strategies for both how long to continue as well as manage the toxicities. I agree with the nausea, olanzapine has been really a great addition, and using a triplet as initial premedication makes a big difference for T-DXd and other deruxtecan ADCs that are in the pipeline. And then I think that the ILD issue, we're really learning more about the risk factors as well as retreatment. And hopefully, we'll have more data this year at ESMO Breast and maybe ASCO on retreatment for grade 1. We certainly now do not have any data on the safety of retreatment for grade 2, so that is really not accepted now. For sacituzumab, I think the interesting area is the metabolism and the impact. So with neutropenia, as we move the drug earlier, it's easier and easier to manage, we see less severe neutropenia. We can give growth factors, which we are all good at in oncology. But I think the question about managing diarrhea and who is at risk still exists. Understanding pharmacogenomics and UGT1A1 is an interesting area where patients who have diarrhea could be tested to see if they are poor metabolizers which affects a little under 10% of the overall population. Because in that group, you could give less drug and get the same benefit with less toxicity. So I think this is all very interesting. It is important for providers and patients to be educated so that we can manage this appropriately. And I think you gave an excellent overview.   We have new agents in the pipeline also and maybe we'll talk about those next, and then we'll talk a little bit about sequencing and resistance, as well as the unmet need for brain metastases. So lots of areas to talk about. There are a number of TROP-2 ADCs that are in the pipeline, and one that has presented phase III data, datopotamab deruxtecan. But other studies are being developed with new TROP-2 ADCs as well. But then there are a huge number of ADCs there with new targets, for example, immune effector targets, and new payloads, even immunotherapy and two different payloads or bispecific antibodies. And then there is interest in combining ADCs with immunotherapy and PARP inhibitors. We saw data in bladder cancer, I think it was bladder cancer, with combined 2 different ADCs at ESMO in 2023. So a lot of new approaches. How are we going to manage this moving forward? And where do you think we are going to position some of these next sort of "me-too" drugs?  Dr. Sara Tolaney: It's an excellent question, and you're right, the field is exploding with new antibody- drug conjugates. So, it's going to leave us with this conundrum of what to do. And you brought up the really interesting example of the fact that we have an approved TROP-2 ADC, we have as sacituzumab govitecan, and for example, we've recently seen some really exciting data come out from TROPION-Breast01 looking at another TROP-2 ADC, datopotamab deruxtecan or Dato-DXd where that ADC performed better than chemotherapy in a head-to-head trial in terms of progression-free survival in a hormone receptor-positive population. Then there's another TROP-2 ADC, moving forward in development moving to phase III that Merck is developing MK-2870. All three of these ADCs are targeting TROP-2 and have a TOPO 1 payload. So, it leaves you with the question of how do you think about that? Is there going to be a role for using serial TROP-2 ADCs? Could one work after the other, even when they have very similar payloads? How are we going to incorporate them? How do you pick one over the other? So, it is going to be tricky for us as we get more and more of these agents. I think we're all excited about seeing ADCs that may have different targets and different payloads, where maybe we will see that sequential utilization will have robust efficacy if we swap things out. Again, we don't have data here yet, but I think there are other agents in development. For example, you could think of like, disitamab vedotin targets HER2 and has an MMAE payload. So, could it be that someone progresses on T-DXd for HER2-low, but then could go on to disitamab vedotin? How will that work? So, we have a lot to learn, but it's really nice to have so many options.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see whether or not we select the ADC based on a rational understanding of the tumor and the patient, or whether it's simply what's easier to give and has the right toxicity for that patient.  So, that sort of brings us to our next topic, which is how are we going to sequence these agents? How are we going to understand the mechanisms of ADC resistance? At San Antonio in 2023, we saw a presentation where there was a top-alteration, and the patient had a really long response to a top-directed ADC, or an agent that carried a topoisomerase inhibitor. And that really struck me that we're going to see these alterations. There was a fresh autopsy study that suggested that the alterations may be different in different organ sites of disease. How are we going to figure this out? Dr. Sara Tolaney: Yeah, I also was really puzzled to see those data from San Antonio where we've sort of simplified ADC resistance in our heads to say, well, maybe someone becomes resistant because they lose target expression, or maybe someone becomes resistant because they've developed resistance to the payload, kind of like the way we think of someone developing resistance to getting chemotherapy. But obviously, it's probably far more complex than that. With these ADCs, they need to be able to internalize the ADC and could there be mechanisms of resistance related to the internalization process? So, I think there are lots of potential areas where resistance could be occurring. I think, we don't understand it very well. We've seen patients, for example, who have responded. This is just anecdotal, but we have data, for example looking at, Dato-DXd in the phase 1 triple-negative study where there were some patients who responded despite having progressed on sacituzumab. Well, why is that? You would think if it's target resistance or payload resistance, it would be the same target and a very similar payload. So, why would those drugs work one after the other? And that's why I think we just don't understand this well enough at this point in time.   So, it's clearly an area where more research is needed because it does have significant implications on how we think about using these drugs sequentially. We will need to understand these resistance mechanisms because there do seem to be some rare patients who benefit from these sequencing strategies and then others who don't. So, it would be nice to be able to figure this out and hopefully in the future, we'll be able to test patients and know what drugs to give them. But I think we're far off from that, unfortunately, right now. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, it does seem to be a relatively elusive approach, and I think, in part, it's due to the heterogeneity of cancer. And maybe, as we're better and better at analyzing tumor cells in the blood, which are a rare group, and ctDNA, which, of course, we do now to look for mutations, maybe that'll be an approach that we'll be able to take. And also, of course, moving the drugs earlier into the disease setting with less heterogeneity and mechanisms of resistance might help as well.  I was fascinated by the fact that although the PFS to the first ADC seems to be overall much greater than the PFS to the second ADC, when you sequence them, there are a few patients who have a longer PFS with the second, even if these are just sacituzumab T-DXd sequencing in various directions. So, it's clearly very complex. And right now, I think we're just sequencing and we don't really know how to do it. We just choose what we think is best for that patient first and go on to the next one later, which is interesting. And one of the choices might be treating brain metastases, which of course remains a huge unmet need. And if we could find effective treatment for brain metastases, maybe we could also prevent them in some patients more. What do we know about the central nervous system (CNS) penetration of ADCs and the clinical results? Dr. Sara Tolaney: At first, we were not optimistic that these drugs would have activity in the brain because we thought that these were very large agents that probably couldn't penetrate into the blood-brain barrier. But in fact, I think we were all very excited to see that there is actually data suggesting that these drugs can actually have robust efficacy in the CNS in patients who have active brain metastases. And so what we've seen so far is data with trastuzumab deruxtecan or T-DXd, there have been some trials that have been done, including studies like DEBRA and TUXEDO, which have looked at T-DXd in patients who have active brain metastases and are showing very robust response rates within the CNS. So, we're seeing intracranial response rates on the order of 40% to 50%. And clinically, this is what we're seeing as well. These are smaller studies and there's a larger trial, DESTINY-Breast12, which will hopefully validate the robust efficacy in the CNS with T-DXd. So, again, it's really nice to see this.  To your point, though, one area that I'm curious about, as you were alluding to, is will these drugs be able to prevent CNS disease? And I think that is a very different question because here the blood-brain barrier is not intact when patients have progressive brain metastases, and so these ADCs are causing robust activity. But if you look, for example, and I'll be curious to see what happens, DESTINY-Breast05 is looking at T-DXd in the post preoperative setting for patients who have residual disease and comparing it to T-DM1. And unfortunately, we saw that T-DM1 was not able to prevent brain metastases when looking at data from KATHERINE, where in fact, rates of CNS as the first site of recurrence were similar with T-DM1 and trastuzumab. So, now we'll be interested to see, will it be any different with T-DXd? Will T-DXd be able to have any role in prevention? I think we haven't seen anything like that with ADCs to date, so that would be a paradigm shift in our way of thinking.  Right now, there are strategies being taken from a prevention standpoint of trying to add a tyrosine kinase inhibitor in that early-stage setting, such as what is being done in the COMPASS-RD trying to add tucatinib to T-DM1 to see if that would do it. But again, we really need to understand, again, how these drugs work, particularly when the blood-brain barrier may not be intact. But again, very exciting data with T-DXd in an ongoing trial, actually through SWOG looking at sacituzumab for patients with CNS disease. And we've seen some preliminary data with sacituzumab showing that it actually does penetrate into the brain when they've looked at drug levels in the tumor in the brain, comparing it to plasma, it actually looks similar. So, we know it's getting in there and we'll have more robust efficacy data, hopefully coming soon. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, that was a great summary of that data. It's been exciting also to see some responses in patients with leptomeningeal disease as well, where we've really been struggling with anything that works for more than a few weeks or months at the most. So I'm holding out great hope that we're going to see a big difference because even though TDM-1 had some efficacy, it was nothing like what we're seeing with T-DXd. So we'll see. And the same with sacituzumab with triple negative disease, where sometimes brain metastases can be an isolated site of recurrence, even in patients who have a pathologic complete response. So it has been a big challenge.  So I think that what we've learned from you is a lot about the mechanisms and the data about these new ADCs, the tremendous hope that these are bringing to our patients, but also the really exciting new approaches with new payloads, new targets of drugs that are in development, as well as potentially some different ADCs that have the same target and similar mechanisms of action of this payload. Really fascinating to hear about this, the future work on sequencing, on mechanisms of resistance, and on brain metastases. We have, of course, 2 prospective trials that we'll be looking at sequencing, one with T-DXd and Dato-DXd, and one registry trial with T-DXd and sacituzumab govitecan in the US. So that's also going to, I think, provide us with some important information.  We could talk for a long time about this, but I just wonder if you have any closing comments to sum up your thoughts.  Dr. Sara Tolaney: I think you did a great job leading us through thinking about ADCs, and I think it'll be really interesting to see what happens in the future. While again, these agents have become a standard for us for patients with metastatic disease, I'm going to be curious to see how everything evolves and to see if we'll be able to substitute chemotherapy with ADCs in early disease settings and change outcomes. Will we be able to have novel combinations? Will we be able to sequence these drugs one after another? Will we actually have biomarker predictors to help us sort out which drug to give when? So, still a lot to learn, but clearly a very exciting field right now. Dr. Hope Rugo: Indeed. Sara, thank you for sharing your valuable insights with us today on the ASCO Daily News Podcast on your great work to develop novel therapies for breast cancer. It's always a pleasure to talk to you, and even greater to work with you on the future progress of treatment for breast cancer. Dr. Sara Tolaney: Thank you so much, Hope. Again, really nice to always discuss these data with you. I always learn a lot, so thank you. Dr. Hope Rugo: Thank you. And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. You'll find a link to all of the studies discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experiences, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of a product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.   Follow today's speakers:   Dr. Hope Rugo  @hoperugo  Dr. Sara Tolaney @stolaney1     Follow ASCO on social media:   @ASCO on Twitter    ASCO on Facebook    ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:   Dr. Hope Rugo:  Consulting or Advisory Role: Napo Pharmaceuticals, Puma Biotechnology, Mylan, Eisai, Daiichi Sankyo Research Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Genentech, Merck, Daiichi Sankyo, Sermonix Pharmaceuticals, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Astellas Pharma, Talho Oncology, Veru, GlaxoSmithKline, Hoffmann-LaRoche AG/Genentech, Inc, Stemline Therapeutics Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: Merck, AstraZeneca   Dr. Sara Tolaney: Consulting or Advisory Role: Novartis, Pfizer, Merck, AstraZeneca, Genentech, Eisai, Sanofi, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Seattle Genetics, CytomX Therapeutics, Daiichi Sankyo, Immunomedics/Gilead, BeyondSpring Pharmaceuticals, OncXerna Therapeutics, Zymeworks, Zentalis, Blueprint Medicines, Reveal Genomics, ARC Therapeutics, Umoja Biopharma, Menarini/Stemline, Aadi Bio, Artio Biopharmaceuticals, Incyte Corp, Zetagen, Bayer, Infinity Therapeutics, Jazz Pharmaceuticals, Natera, Tango Therapeutics, Systimmune, eFFECTOR Therapeutics, Hengrui Pharmaceutical (USA), Sumitovant Biopharma Research Funding (Inst.): Genentech/Roche, Merck, Exelixis, Pfizer, Lilly, Novartis, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Eisai, AstraZeneca, NanoString Technologies, Seattle Genetics, OncoPep, Gilead Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: Eli Lilly, Sanofi, Gilead Sciences

In discussion with Dr. Hope Rugo, covering the San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium 2023 Highlights from Community Oncology perspective. We covered 4 important practice informing studies with Dr. Rugo: - NATALEE Update – Ribociclib + Nonsteroidal AI as Adj Treatment in Patients with HR+/HER2− Early Breast Cancer: Final iDFS analysis - MONARCH 3 – Final OS Results of Abemaciclib Plus a Nonsteroidal AI as First-line Therapy for HR+, HER2– Advanced Breast Cancer - INAVO120 – Phase III Study of Inavolisib or Placebo in Combination with Palbociclib and Fulvestrant in Patients with PIK3CA-mut, HR+, HER2– Locally Adv/Metastatic Breast Cancer - TROPION-Breast01 – Phase III Study of Dato-DXd vs Chemo for Patients with Previously Treated Inoperable/Metastatic HR+, HER2– Breast Cancer

Dr Hope Rugo from the UCSF Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center in San Francisco, California, and Dr Tiffany Traina from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York, New York, discuss current and emerging optimal management approaches for metastatic triple-negative breast cancer, moderated by Dr Neil Love. Produced by Research To Practice. CME information and select publications here (https://www.researchtopractice.com/InsideTheIssue2023/TNBC)

Dr Hope Rugo from the UCSF Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center in San Francisco, California, and Dr Tiffany Traina from Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York, New York, discuss current and emerging optimal management approaches for metastatic triple-negative breast cancer.

Drs. Hope Rugo and Nancy Davidson discuss the next generation of endocrine therapy in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer – SERDs, SERMs, CERANs, and PROTACs – and challenges relating to the optimal sequence of therapeutic options. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Hope Rugo: Hello, I'm Dr. Hope Rugo, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of breast oncology and clinical trials education at the University of California San Francisco's Comprehensive Cancer Center. Hormone receptor-positive (HR+) breast cancer is the most common subset of this disease and breast cancer is the most common cancer diagnosed in women worldwide. Endocrine therapy (ET) is the cornerstone of management in hormone receptor-positive breast cancer and may involve suppressing estrogen production with aromatase inhibitors in the cancer cell itself, or directly blocking the estrogen receptor pathway through selective estrogen receptor modulators, such as tamoxifen, or the injectable selective estrogen receptor degrader, fulvestrant. However, despite the availability of these therapies, the largest unmet need lies in treatment of HR-positive HER-negative disease lies after progression on endocrine therapy. On today's episode, we'll be discussing the emerging generation of endocrine therapies in breast cancer, some of which were designed to overcome common mechanisms of endocrine resistance, and the challenges relating to the optimal sequence of therapeutic options. Today, I'm delighted to welcome the world-renowned breast cancer researcher, Dr. Nancy Davidson, to the podcast. She's a professor and the executive vice president for clinical affairs at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center and professor of medicine at the University of Washington as well as past president of ASCO and AACR. You'll find our full disclosures in the transcript of this episode and disclosures of all guests on the podcast can be found in our transcripts at asco.org/DNpod. Nancy, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for being here. Dr. Nancy Davidson: Thank you so much, Hope, for the opportunity. Dr. Hope Rugo:  You've done incredible work in the area of treating HR+ disease, but also in understanding some of the agents and pathways that are most important to our understanding of how we treat and really think about developing new drugs for HR+ breast cancer. The first generation of anti-estrogen drugs really included selective estrogen receptor modulators, but now we have a new generation of these anti-estrogen drugs. And there's also orally administered selective estrogen receptor degraders, so-called SERDs, that we hope someday will be an alternative with already one approved for the injectable SERD, fulvestrant. But there's a whole additional class of drugs, complete estrogen receptor antagonists, referred to as CERANs, and proteolysis targeting chimerics, PROTACs. These agents are all at various stages of development in both early and metastatic settings and really represent, I think, a confusing array of different treatments that are being studied, some of which of course are approved. Nancy, it would be great if you could tell us some about these exciting new agents, starting with our approved drugs and moving on to the agents that we're studying in clinical trials. Dr. Nancy Davidson: Hope, this is a terrific example of how basic science has really begun to inform clinical practice. For us as breast cancer practitioners, it was really easy for a long time because we only had tamoxifen. And then things like the aromatase inhibitors as a means of decreasing the estrogen ligand came into practice, as did fulvestrant, as you mentioned, a selective estrogen receptor degrader. Thanks though to a lot of understanding about estrogen receptor biology, and specifically, the discovery about a decade ago of estrogen receptor mutations, something that we didn't think exist ed for a long time, but which we now know exists in maybe a third to a half of breast cancers after exposure to aromatase inhibitors, that's led to really an explosion, this alphabet soup of possibilities that you talked about. SERMs, selective estrogen receptor modulators, tamoxifen is the classic one—something that acts as an agonist and as an antagonist, depending on the tissue. The SERDs, the selective estrogen receptor degraders, lead to estrogen receptor destruction. Fulvestrant is the classic example of this right now. But we're very excited that a second one has been FDA approved. That's elacestrant that was approved earlier this year, and it has specifically been developed to try to target those estrogen receptor mutant breast cancers because those are the ones that are particularly resistant. So that's the first of this new generation of SERDs that's coming on the market, has come on the market. As you say, a key advantage there is that it's oral, unlike  fulvestrant, which requires 2 monthly injections and is very, very inconvenient and uncomfortable for patients. Other SERDs are coming along. I think another one that is well along in clinical development is giredestrant, which is in the same family and being tested in clinical trials of the classic varieties. It's been tested in a window trial, looking at its ability to down-regulate Ki67. It's being tested against standard of care in first-line metastatic breast cancer. And there are some studies that are going to begin looking at it in the adjuvant setting as well. There are other members of this particular family, but I think that elacestrant is the one that we have at our fingertips right now, and giredestrant is one that's certainly coming along in clinical trials, and we should look forward to those results. For those who are interested in the giredestrant, the trials in question right now that are going on are persevERA, which is in stage 4 breast cancer, and lidERA, which is in the adjuvant setting. Now that's one new category, or it's an old category with a new twist. A second is these agents that are called complete estrogen receptor antagonists, CERANs, as you talked about them. The key here is that what they do is, the estrogen receptor has a couple of domains, and in particular, it has 2 different activation domains, AFT1 and AFT2. And these CERANs are complete estrogen receptor antagonists, so they block both of those domains. And the hope would be that they might end up being more effective than the other agents that we have available to us right now. So those are also in clinical trial at the present time, and we're waiting to see whether or not there's going be any value in that particular area that's going to able to go forward for us.   Another area that I think we want to talk about is the PROTACs, as you mentioned. These are proteolysis targeting chimeric entities. So, this is a kind of a complicated situation where you have a kind of bivalent situation where you have something that binds both to the estrogen receptor and then also to E3 ubiquinase. So, it leads to degradation again of the agents; that's another area for us to be watching. And then finally the SERCAs. So those are the selective estrogen receptor covalent antagonists, and what they do is they bind very specifically to a cysteine 530 that exists in the estrogen receptor but not in other steroid receptors. So that's where the selective part of this comes along. Now these are all in various stages of clinical investigation. Some of them are pretty early at this point, but I think the ones that are well established are elacestrant, giredestrant is coming along as we just talked about. Camizestrant is also coming along through the SERENA series of trials, and imlunestrant is also coming on through the EMBER series of trials. Hope, I would also be remiss if I didn't go back to an old drug that's a new drug, and that's lasofoxifene, which is also in the SERM family. Those who have been in our field for a while will remember that lasofoxifene was actually originally kind of tested in the prevention setting, where it seemed to have some activity. It came back into our interest because it has really strong activity against estrogen receptor mutant breast cancer models in the laboratory. And as a consequence of that, it's coming back into the clinic through a series of trials that are called the ELAINE trials, where we're looking to see whether or not it might also be better than fulvestrant. It too is an oral agent, so that's a real plus for us, and the first set of ELAINE trials would suggest that there's some nice activity without a lot of toxicity. So, lots going on in this field. You know, I think for all of these things, obviously, we're also working very hard to think about the toxicities. All of these, as I recall, are oral agents. So that gets rid of  1 huge toxicity, which is you don't have the need for some sort of injection. But they all do have some side effects. Frequently, [the toxicities] are like GI side effects or fatigue. In a couple of cases, there might be some concern about cardiac arrhythmias, but I think GI turns out to be one of the most important things that we have seen in some of these trials. Generally, it's very well tolerated, though. I think another important question, which I'm sure is in your head and is in mine, is that how are we going to integrate these into what we already have? And so, I think a lot of the work right now is looking at patients who have already received an aromatase inhibitor plus a CDK4/6 inhibitor and are now going on to one of these new agents. But you might wonder, if they turn out to be effective and well-tolerated, whether they too should be perhaps combined with CDK4/6 inhibitors in place of the aromatase inhibitors or the fulvestrant that we use now. So, I think that we can imagine that those clinical trials are either in progress in some cases or will be coming on as we try to think about how to integrate these new approaches into our existing standard of care, which is already quite complicated, right? We've gone far from tamoxifen, which was good for everybody, to now a really complex algorithm about how we think about hormone therapy, both in early breast cancer and in metastatic breast cancer.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, that was a fabulous discussion about the new agents and our existing agents and both the exciting aspects, as well as the challenges. One question that comes up, I think a lot, and this is of course a huge question in many ways, but for ER-positive metastatic breast cancer, where these drugs are first being tested, maybe we'll talk about that first. There's one trial at SERENA-6, looking at camizestrant in patients who have developed evidence of an ESR1 mutation in circulating tumor DNA, who are on first-line therapy with an AI and a CDK4/6 inhibitor. What do you think about that study and where do you think that progress might go? Of course, that's based on data from another trial, which wasn't definitive, but suggested, had sort of a suggestion, you know, without studying the sequencing in detail that maybe you would have improved progression-free survival with that approach. Dr. Nancy Davidson: Yeah, by which you mean the idea of monitoring pre-ESR1 mutations and circulating DNA and then making therapy changes based on that? Is that what you're talking about? Dr. Hope Rugo:  The PADA-1 trial, yes, and that led to this huge SERENA-6 trial, which of course is now accruing. Dr. Nancy Davidson: So, you know, we would love that, right? I think that obviously breast cancer for many years has been interested in trying to have circulating markers that we could use to help to guide our therapy in a more meaningful way than we have in the past. And I think that the trial that you've talked about is certainly one that's trying to make that see whether that's a possibility for us based on information like the PADA trial. I'm hopeful it's going to work out. I would say, let's see what that looks like, whether it's going to be useful or not. It seems to me in some cases, some of these trials have not been quite what we hoped for, but I don't think we necessarily had the molecular techniques or the sensitivity, nor did we necessarily have other things to move to because, you know, those two approaches require both a really good test, but also the ability to use the test to define a new therapy that's going to lead to improved patient outcomes. And I think that these are ingredients that we now have available to us at our fingertips more than we did, say, a decade or 2 decades ago. Exciting approach. Dr. Hope Rugo:  I do think there's a lot of challenges inherent in this process, monitoring blood on a regular basis and following up and then randomizing based on results. But I think [SERENA-6] is an incredibly important trial, as you have mentioned, to try and think about moving past using circulating tumor cells, which didn't work, to just change blindly to the next therapy, but more have a rational reason to change to a drug that may be more effective before the disease itself progresses. And just for our listeners, the unique aspect of trials like this in SERENA-6 is that you change therapy before you have evidence of disease progression, but only this molecular evidence of a mutation that is associated with resistance to the therapy you're on. So, it's a really important question. We'll see what happens, as you mentioned, sometimes we're not clever enough to really get around the fact that there are multiple mutations driving resistance in this setting, so we'll see how straightforward this is. The question also comes up, and I think that's a question with many of these trials now, is they're randomizing patients after a progression on an AI and CDK4/6 inhibitor to receive the novel endocrine therapy or fulvestrant. One of, I think, the concerns of treating oncologists is that then you're sort of eliminating the possibility of a targeted agent in that setting. And of course, we have new targeted agents we're studying as well, AKT inhibitors and new inhibitors of the PI3 kinase pathway. So, the newer trials are now combining, as you mentioned. There's a lot of concerns about drug-drug interactions here and how you might really combine them. And then there are triplet studies looking at CDK4/6 inhibitors, oral SERDs primarily, and pi3-kinase and CDK4/6 inhibitors. What's your thought on these and will they really help to move the needle forward? Dr. Nancy Davidson: I think that's a really interesting question, Hope, is whether or not we're going to find that combination therapies from the get-go are the way to go, or whether we're going to end up having to use maybe more serial therapies. Because not only is it a question about whether or not you can tackle all of these different resistance mechanisms simultaneously, but I think the other question is, as you say, are there negative drug-drug interactions, and are there toxicities that are intolerable? Although these are targeted in all cases and they're relatively benign in terms of side effects from the breast cancer perspective, they're not devoid of toxicity. And so, I think that's going to be another issue for us – whether they're well tolerated during the time that patients are taking them. I guess the other thing I always think about, Hope,  is that it's hard to know about value of cancer care, but you know, we are talking about agents that are not inexpensive. You know, when you think about the financial toxicity, in addition to the side effect toxicity that you and I just talked about, trying to think about what that value is going to look like is going to be very important for us. Also, as somebody who worked for a long time in the lab and in the clinic, you know, there are an infinite number of combinations that you and I could think about that are rational. And so, the question is, how are we going to pick the ones that are the most rational, if you will, the ones that seem to be the most promising, and take them forward into clinical trials? Because patients are our most precious resource. And so, we want to make sure that we are bringing forward only those things that really seem to have a very strong foundation and the opportunity to improve outcomes over time. Tough, tough question for us to try to think about, as you've talked about. The other thing is that, you know, these trials are not only for postmenopausal women, who are the majority of patients, but we also want to target them to premenopausal women. So, in those women, we're also looking at using an LHRH agonist on top of this, right, because many of these things are really at least so far designed for the postmenopausal state. So stay tuned. Lots of work going on. I think one of the interesting things will be making the leap from using these in metastatic disease at time of progression to taking them forward into the early breast cancer space. And several of the agents are now beginning to do that because of very strong preclinical and clinical data to date. Dr. Hope Rugo: So, we have new agents that we're studying in the metastatic setting, and we've seen a trend to move fairly rapidly from phase 1B trials directly into phase 3 trials, because as you pointed out so clearly, there are a number of drugs in this setting, and we don't really know not only which agent is better, but even what class of agents is better. So, as we move more quickly from phase 1B to phase 3, the question comes up about how we're going to study these agents optimally in the early-stage setting. They, I think we all thought that maybe changing based on ctDNA evidence of a mutation might be an approach, but that's complicated. A big question for you is whether or not you think that's ready for prime time as it's being marketed as such. And then the second question is really, are we better changing our whole approach upfront in high-risk disease or should we wait until after patients are exposed to their endocrine therapy and then switch as we go along; the EMBER-4 trial is looking at that switching approach? Dr. Nancy Davidson: Yeah, I think that this is obviously the billion-dollar question for many companies and for many of us as investigators. I don't know that I have a crystal ball into what the best approach might be. We know that already some of these have been abandoned. For example, amcenestrant. So, I don't even have to learn how to say it because it has been abandoned. It did go to phase 3, as you pointed out, in the advanced setting, looking at it with palbo vs letrozole plus palbo, and it didn't really show a whole lot that the company wanted to pursue.  So, I think that sometimes these things are going to be abandoned based on the metastatic setting, which is a large trial, and that's a trial where obviously it might be a little easier to the circulating markers, as you talked about, than maybe in the early-stage breast cancer setting.  I think that probably these early-stage trials are going to end up being big; they're going to have be clean. I'm guessing that most companies and most investigators will want to target them towards high-risk individuals, as you talked about, for 2 reasons. One is that ethically, I think we feel more comfortable with that. These are individuals where standard therapies are maybe not serving them as well as we would like and where we have information to think that we can at least have equipoise about a new approach. And the second is that from a trial design point of view, the event rate is likely to be higher, and therefore you might get answers earlier and with a smaller clinical trial. So that's where I suspect we're going to go. But it's a challenging question, and I think that many investigators and many companies are really trying to struggle with that right now because we do have so many options. And we're not quite sure how to, first, develop these new drugs, but then really importantly, put them in the context of our existing drugs. And as you say, we're also simultaneously trying to develop superior molecular or circulating markers to guide us. So, there's so many variables that are going on right now in this field that, from my point of view, itmakes it really exciting, but it also makes it pretty complicated, both for investigators and for pharma as we try to think about how to position these going forward. But what a great problem to have, Hope, because remember when you and I started in breast cancer, pretty much all you needed to know was tamoxifen. And I think you and I also probably started at the tail end of the time when we were using androgens and progestins and agents that now have basically completely fallen out of favor. Dr. Hope Rugo: Estrogen Dr. Nancy Davidson: Estrogen, yeah, and your side effect profiles were not as good. So, it's a good problem to have. It's a nice situation when science can inform our clinical investigation, our clinical practice. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, I think it'll be fascinating to see where we end up at the end, but of course, the complexities of this include the fact that sometimes just the clinical trial design leads to a less than positive result because of the way the trial itself has been designed, which I think is the nice part about moving these earlier into treatment of high-risk disease, but also brings up the question of all sorts of areas we're not really a place to discuss today, like how the statistical design is made, et cetera, that can sometimes result in poor evaluation of excellent agents. One of the questions that comes up, and you brought this up earlier, which I think is really important, is that we are in the era of combining our endocrine agents with targeted agents, and, oral agents, in a fascinating way, really bring up drug-drug interactions in a way that the injectable fulvestrant hasn't, and aromatase inhibitors were kind of quiet on the impacting metabolism, unlike tamoxifen. But we are seeing some drug-drug interactions and certainly the discussions about using these agents may include the question about whether or not you're having more diarrhea or nausea or fatigue or one drug causes photopsia, flashing lights, things like that. Keratitis is becoming a new toxicity to follow.  How are we going to figure out how to sequence these drugs and are they only going to work better all of them as a class in patients with ESR1 mutations in their tumors? Dr. Nancy Davidson: I think we don't know the answer to the second question yet. That's something that really needs to be sorted out. Even if they do, that's still a really important subset of patients, assuming that we continue to start with the aromatase inhibitors, right? That's where those things really seem to emerge right now. I don't know how we're going to figure those things out. I guess that I'm hoping that maybe a couple of agents in these classes will become kind of the lead agents. And so, we'll be able to do this work with a handful of things as opposed to a whole array of things. But we'll see. I think that even within classes, obviously, these agents are going be slightly different, probably. And so it may be that one member of a class may be slightly better from a, maybe not from an efficacy point of view, but from a toxicity point of view. And we'll just have to see how it goes. I don't think I have any magic answers about that. Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, it'll be interesting to see whether or not the agents work in sequence too. You know, could you use a PROTAC after an oral SERD, for example, or a CERAN? That'll be fascinating to see. Dr. Nancy Davidson:  I'm hoping that preclinical modeling may help with that a little bit, though of course we all know that there are plenty of things that do well in preclinical models, GEMS and rodent models and PDXs, and sometimes those things translate nicely into clinical practice, but sometimes they don't. Dr. Hope Rugo: You mentioned, Nancy, that when we started out, that it was a fairly simple decision about what endocrine therapies, and we ran out very quickly. We're seeing some of those old classes come up with new agents. And you mentioned lasofoxifene, the oral SERM that seems to have some benefits and works in the later-line setting and also can be combined with a CDK4/6 inhibitor; [and also] has data with abemaciclib. There's also a new androgen receptor agonist, enobosarm, that's being tested as well. Do you think that these older mechanisms have a future as well? Dr. Nancy Davidson: I do. I think that because we'll be able to understand the biology better than we did in the past. A lot of our hormone therapy was pretty empiric several decades ago. But I think with better understanding of mechanisms and better understanding of what the patterns of resistance might be for a particular tumor, that we might be able to think about those things. You're right that there's a whole parallel universe right now in androgen receptor targeted therapies that we're not talking about today, both in perhaps in hormone-responsive breast cancers, but also in triple-negative breast cancers in a certain subset. And so that's an area where we probably need to be watching what our prostate cancer colleagues are doing as they develop these agents and thinking about where they might mechanistically make sense to apply in the breast cancer field. It won't be the first time that we've received insights from them because remember, prostate cancer people knew about androgen receptor mutations a really long time before we figured out that they existed in estrogen receptor as well. So, there's a nice cross talk, I think, between the prostate cancer field and the breast cancer field in that regard. Dr. Hope Rugo:  That's an excellent point. And we learn a lot from our colleagues studying other malignancies, and prostate cancer has been a big area there for us and hopefully will help us with studying these agents because there's different toxicity profiles, of course, as well. And then you mentioned the approval of elacestrant, the first oral SERD to have regulatory approval, and it's approved in patients who have ESR1 mutations in their tumors. We're also studying it in the ELEVATE trial in combination with all of the different targeted agents, the CDK4/6 inhibitors, mTOR inhibitor, everolimus, and the PI3 kinase inhibitor, alpelisib, to really try and understand how these can be optimally combined. Would you check for ESR1 mutations at diagnosis of metastatic disease, or would you do this more after progression or start of progression of disease on an aromatase inhibitor? Dr. Nancy Davidson: I tend to be a conservative, Hope, and so unless there's a clinical trial that might be able to be considered, I would tend to check it only after progression on the aromatase inhibitor. But I think some people are earlier adopters, and I suppose it's possible that they might want to know from the get-go. Having said that, I do think elacestrant has an approval after aromatase inhibitor, as I recall. So, presumably the patient would have to have that exposure before you would be able to act on the ESR1 mutation by administering the oral SERD. This is also a new area that may well change with time, right? You know, as we develop different agents, as the agents have different requirements or different indications, and as we perhaps have better tests, it may be things that we don't do routinely now will become very routine in the future. And perhaps in series like you talked about in a serial fashion. Dr. Hope Rugo: Absolutely. I think that's a really important comment about how we're going to think about treating hormone receptor positive disease and potentially, you know, we have new chemo options, of course, not part of our talk discussion today and antibody drug conjugates. So, the future is certainly challenging in terms of understanding this appropriate sequencing. We need data, but it's exciting to have these options. As you pointed out, this is this is a great problem to have, you know, too many drugs with efficacy to try and understand how to use these in the most appropriate way. And as you also pointed out, the use in young women is particularly important. Whether or not you need to suppress the ovaries with all of these new agents is going to be important to understand as well as a next step. I don't know if you have specific thoughts on that area as well. I mean, that may reduce toxicity for younger women. Dr. Nancy Davidson: I guess our approach right now has been to suppress them, but I agree with you; you wonder if you look at some of the mechanisms of action, whether that's really a requirement biologically and medically, or whether it's something that's kind of a leftover from the approval process. You know, that for the drug approval, these women were suppressed. I think we need to work that out because that's another area where certainly women could have ovaries removed. That's pretty straightforward, although it requires a surgical procedure. But otherwise use of LHRH agonists continues to be injections, right? And so, if we're trying to minimize convenience or maximize convenience and minimize toxicity for women with any stage of breast cancer, anything we can do, it seems to me to eliminate an injection is going to be a good thing. So important for us to be able to work that out as well, even though numerically it's a smaller number of women, it's obviously a very important number. population of women. Dr. Hope Rugo: Last question for you. One question that comes up and sent to me and panels all the time is, if you have done your next generation sequencing and you see an ESR1 mutation and a P13CA mutation, what do you prioritize in terms of your choice of treatment, because we have the choice of either using elacestrant or a fulvestrant in combination with an agent targeting the PI3 kinase pathway? Dr. Nancy Davidson: I don't know that there's a right answer to that medically right now. So, when I talk about it with patients, I suggest to them that it's probably not one or the other. It's kind of the question of which one to use first. So, we talk a little bit about side effect profiles. We talk a little bit about patient preference and neither of these drugs is devoid of problems, but sometimes patients have pretty strong feelings about which set of side effects seems the least unattractive to them or the possibility of having those side effects. And I know that if one isn't well tolerated, you can swap over to the other. Dr. Hope Rugo: Absolutely. I think that's a very important way to think about next therapies in our era of not really knowing what's right. And this idea of shared decision-making is so incredibly important. Nancy, thank you so much for sharing your insights and knowledge with us today. I could talk to you for hours about this. Dr. Nancy Davidson: Hope, thank you so much for the opportunity. It is an exciting area and I really enjoyed talking with you about what we know and the many things that we don't yet know, but we're working on. Dr. Hope Rugo: Indeed, it's certainly an exciting time. Thank you to our listeners for joining us today. And thanks to the ASCO Daily News Podcast for highlighting this important area. You'll find a link to all of the studies discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much.   Disclaimer:    The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.    Follow today's speakers:     Dr. Hope Rugo  @hoperugo  Dr. Nancy Davidson     Follow ASCO on social media:     @ASCO on Twitter    ASCO on Facebook    ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:     Dr. Hope Rugo:  Consulting or Advisory Role: Napo Pharmaceuticals, Puma Biotechnology, Mylan, Eisai, Daiichi Sankyo Research Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Genentech, Merck, Daiichi Sankyo, Sermonix Pharmaceuticals, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Astellas Pharma, Talho Oncology, Veru, GlaxoSmithKline, Hoffmann-LaRoche AG/Genentech, Inc Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: Merck, AstraZeneca   Dr. Nancy Davidson: No Relationships to Disclose    

Drs. Hope Rugo and Kristin Rojas discuss advances in the management of menopausal symptoms, fertility preservation, and bone health for women on endocrine therapy for breast cancer. TRANSCRIPT Dr. Hope Rugo: Hello. I'm Dr. Hope Rugo, your guest host of the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a professor of medicine and director of breast oncology and clinical trials education at the University of California San Francisco's Comprehensive Cancer Center. And I'm also an associate editor of the ASCO Educational Book.   In patients with hormone receptor positive breast cancer, the most common subset of the most common cancer in women worldwide, adjuvant endocrine therapy significantly reduces the risk of recurrence and death. However, prolonged estrogen suppression associated with the use of endocrine therapy can cause life-altering menopausal symptoms, bone loss, and fertility concerns. These issues impact the use of endocrine therapy and potentially breast cancer outcome.    Today, we'll be discussing mitigation strategies to manage the side effects of endocrine therapy, which we hope will improve our patient's quality of life and adherence to treatment with Dr. Kristin Rojas, who addressed these issues in a recently published article in the 2023 ASCO Educational Book. Dr. Rojas is an assistant professor of surgery and a breast surgical oncologist and gynecologic surgeon at the University of Miami Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center.    Our full disclosures are available in the transcript of this episode, and disclosures of all guests on the podcast can be found in our transcripts at asco.org/DNpod.    Dr. Rojas, thank you for being on the podcast today.   Dr. Kristin Rojas: Thanks, Dr. Rugo, thank you so much for having me. Thank you to ASCO as well. It's truly an honor to be here with you today.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Your excellent article provides an updated overview of the existing approaches and a little forward thinking for improving the quality of life of breast cancer patients who are receiving estrogen deprivation therapy, a really broad term we use for all the hormone therapy we use in ovarian function suppression in the treatment of breast cancer. And then you had a very nice session education session at the ASCO Annual Meeting discussing these issues. Can you briefly discuss the educational session, your speakers and topics, and then we'll get more into the details of this important topic?   Dr. Kristin Rojas: At our educational session at ASCO this year, I chaired the session and presented on managing the sexual side effects and menopausal symptoms of estrogen suppression. And I had two wonderful colleagues with me: Dr. Matteo Lambertini, who shared guidelines regarding bone-targeted agents and managing bone health during endocrine suppression. And then we also had Dr. Terri Woodard, who is a reproductive endocrinologist from MD Anderson, who spoke on managing fertility concerns, which is a very important topic right now.   Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, that's great. And it was such a fabulous session. Our listeners can view it online at asco.org if you missed this session. But let's talk a little bit about what was in your article and what was discussed. First, I think the physical and psychological effects of cancer care we know are critical components of survivorship care. Can you tell me a little bit more about that and how we need to understand that as oncologists?  Dr. Kristin Rojas: So, as you know, as treatment continues to improve, our cancer outcomes are improving and the population of survivors continues to grow. So, I think that for many breast cancer patients, or having the diagnosis of breast cancer, becomes more of a chronic illness and less a life-threatening issue for some. I think that the conversation is now changing from “Will you live?” to “How will you live?” And I was thrilled to see that other big organizations, along with ASCO, are prioritizing managing these important symptoms in survivorship. Because I think that, as most patients will be on some form of estrogen suppression, managing the toxicity of these therapies, as you pointed out, probably does influence treatment adherence, which directly translates to an oncologic improvement. So, it's not just managing these soft symptoms, it actually will have a direct influence on probably overall survival along with disease-free survival.  Dr. Hope Rugo: Yeah, I think that's incredibly important and it's not just about doing the exam and finding out symptoms that might signify recurrence, it's really trying to address the effects of the treatment patients have gotten of chemo and their ongoing treatment with endocrine therapy that's so incredibly important. And now, of course, in medical oncology, we're adding on more agents which add to symptoms. That'll be the topic of next year's ASCO educational session. What do you do with the CDK4/6 inhibitors and managing those. But in more than 80% of women who are on the antiestrogen or various, I'm going to call hormone therapies, for early-stage breast cancer, vasomotor symptoms are a big issue. They're typically more severe in younger patients because of course they have estrogen and we take it away. So, how do we mitigate this problem in patients that can result in poor sleep and impact many aspects of one's psychosocial status? And these issues, not sleeping, of course, you make everything worse.  Dr. Kristin Rojas: Yeah, that's a really important point. And you're right, this is a really common symptom experienced by the majority of patients on endocrine suppression. And not only those patients, but patients with triple negative disease who are put into menopause from chemotherapy, etc., along with women with cancer of other disease sites. And so, as the director of our program at the Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center, the program is called MUSIC, which stands for Menopause Urogenital Sexual Health and Intimacy Clinic.    This is a very common symptom that patients often report. And one of the important things about this that I've realized is that hot flashes or vasomotor symptoms can actually have a pretty varied presentation. So, it's not just intense sweating. Sometimes these patients can present with palpitations, panic attacks, and they don't even realize that they're hot flashes. This is an effect of estrogen suppression and it's a central mechanism. So, it's probably related to hypothalamic dysregulation regarding how our body senses temperature changes, but it results in widespread flushing and sweating and those other aspects I told you about.   So, we've known for a long time that there are some behavioral modifications that can help with vasomotor symptoms or hot flashes. But now, we actually do have some pretty effective pharmacologic therapies for these patients as well, for whom behavioral modifications aren't completely helping the issue. Or, as you said, when patients are being woken up all night long with these hot flashes, it totally disrupts how their day goes and disrupts coping with their disease and all the other aspects of their treatment.   So, there's some effective treatments that we have. One of those being cognitive behavioral therapy has been shown to be helpful. The data on acupuncture is mixed, but I'm hopeful about this. And then the pharmacologic therapies we have. Traditionally or historically, clonidine, which is an alpha agonist, has been used along with gabapentin. But I think when choosing a medication to prescribe to a patient for hot flashes, you have to take into account the side effect profile. Clonidine does have some issues with blood pressure rebound, and gabapentin is really only effective in large doses, which can be very sedating for patients.    In the MUSIC Sexual Health After Cancer program, we typically stick to low dose SSRIs or SNRIs. I usually go with venlafaxine at a really low dose of 37.5 milligrams, and I can titrate up. I have patients take it at night in case they feel a little foggy when they first start it. But more recently, we've started using oxybutynin, which is an anticholinergic medication originally FDA approved for overactive bladder. I use the XL formulation, or you can do 2.5 or 5 milligrams BID. And this, in a study a few years ago, was shown to significantly reduce hot flashes and improve quality of life in a placebo-controlled trial.   So, important aspects of side effects of these medications with SSRIs or SNRIs working in the MUSIC Sexual Health After Cancer Program, sexual health concerns are often an issue, so those drugs can be libido zappers sometimes. But, the biggest side effect I've come across with oxybutynin for patients is dry mouth, and usually that resolves after a little while. So, we've had a lot of success in managing patients' hot flashes with these medications.  Dr. Hope Rugo: That's great and incredibly helpful. And I will say that as we're talking about these issues on this podcast, this is really important for all of our staff and our clinics because most of us don't have a fabulous clinic like the one you've started. But we are managing this with our staff, our APPs, and other areas that our patients are seeing. If everybody has this education, it will really help in the management of symptoms. And I just want to point out that venlafaxine was the first drug to be studied in this area really successful, but that we can use a whole host of different antidepressants. If people have side effects from one another, one may work really well, and generally low doses work well. The oxybutynin was such a very cool study. I think that's a great additional option.    In addition to hot flashes, we also see genitourinary syndrome of menopause, and that's part of what you deal with every day in your clinic, GSM. And this can be not just vaginal dryness, which is bad enough, but also increased infections, painful sex, recurrent bladder infections and also reduced libido, which is a really big issue, we just don't talk about very much. What's the most effective and safe treatment for GSM? And we use a lot of low dose vaginal estrogen and a variety of delivery mechanisms. What are the risk and benefits when patients really need something more?   Dr. Kristin Rojas: GSM, or genitourinary syndrome of menopause, is this newer umbrella term for what we used to call vaginal atrophy. And you're right, it encompasses not only dryness, but all the other changes that can happen to the vulvovaginal mucosa along with anatomic changes to the pelvic floor. This is critically important, I think, that we address these issues or these potential side effects at the time of endocrine therapy prescription because what we have found in our program is that while hot flashes might get better, these symptoms do not get better. And left untreated, they get worse.   And one of the surprising findings that we have presented earlier at another conference this year was that almost half of our patients, when they had their pelvic exam in the program, were also found to have vaginal stenosis. So narrowing and shortening of the vagina, making penetrative sex actually impossible. So it's really not just dryness, but a host of these other symptoms that go along with that. I like to break this down in a really simple way because I know that a lot of providers may be intimidated when patients might bring this up. But I think about it this way. Number 1, eliminate irritants. Number 2, moisturize. Number 3, lubricate. And 4, address the pelvic floor.   Oftentimes when patients present in the MUSIC program, they've been putting a lot of over the counter topical therapies on the vulva and the vagina using intravaginal washes. One of the biggest offenders of some of these symptoms is artificial fragrance, which we can actually develop an allergic reaction to, which manifests as burning and stinging. So these patients may also report burning and stinging in addition to dryness. These offenders can be in all kinds of products. So not only feminine washes, which I don't recommend in our program, but things like bath bombs, bubble bath, toilet paper. And so we kind of go through an inventory of everything that's touching the delicate tissues of the vulva and the vagina and try to back off those products.   The second thing is moisturization. It's important to talk to patients about the difference between moisturization, which I say is for maintenance, and lubricants, which are for PRN use sexual activity. But I tell patients, "lubricants for love." That's how I differentiate the use of these two different types of products because they have different properties. Usually after eliminating irritants, our first step is to start with a non-hormonal moisturizer because there's some really good high-tech non-hormonal moisturizers out there, specifically those containing hyaluronic acid, which pulls moisture from the environment and holds it on the skin. And by using this first—this is my personal opinion—but I think by improving the mucosa a little bit and kind of improving the dryness, maybe even the elasticity a little bit, I think that when patients do have persistent symptoms after using regularly these non-hormonal moisturizers at least three times a week, that adding in a low dose vaginal hormone at that time, instead of putting it on completely atrophic mucosa, you're putting it on kind of like a pretreated mucosa, which I think might decrease systemic absorption.   I'm so glad you brought up vaginal estrogen. I could give an entire talk just on that, so I'd be happy to do that next year for ASCO if anybody wants. But it is very controversial. Historically, there have not been studies showing an increased risk of recurrence with the use of local estrogen therapy, so estrogen in the vulva and the vagina. However, there was a recent study that came out this year that was a large analysis of breast cancer patients receiving different types of hormone therapy. And in a subset analysis of the group who got local vaginal estrogen, just in those patients on aromatase inhibitors, there was a slightly, but statistically significant–according to their analysis–increase in the risk of recurrence. I think there's some issues with this analysis because it was a large study and there's a lot of recall bias and measuring this in patients is really challenging. But I think it's still important to mention because a lot of patients are going to read about those things, these types of studies.   The way I approach it is to start with the lowest dose and I start with infrequent dosing. If patients have persistent symptoms, I start them with once a week or twice a week, which is different from the original pharmacokinetic studies of higher dose estrogens, which showed a bump in their serum estradiol when they used it every night for two weeks. So I actually do the opposite and taper them up. I'll do once a week to twice a week. And usually, patient symptoms are resolved at that point.   But I do want to point out, that's a great option for patients on tamoxifen because mechanistically, as you know, it probably doesn't matter if they have a little bump in their serum estrogen. But for the patients on aromatase inhibitors, we actually have a new kid on the block, a vaginal androgen called prasterone or DHEA. I dose this in the same way, titrate it up. But this can be really helpful for patients on aromatase inhibitors because the ALLIANCE trial showed that for those patients on AIs that their systemic estrogen levels do not increase. And so that's kind of how I manage that discussion. I do think it takes some multidisciplinary collaboration, so I always involve my medical oncology colleagues on this.    Lastly, lubricants. So, everyone seems to be really into using water-based lubricants, but I try to tell patients, unless you're depending on condoms for STD or contraception protection, silicone-based lubricants that are like preservative-free and don't have a lot of those gimmicks or additives, are great—they stay slippery for longer—and there's some really great brands out there. And then for patients who still have persistent pain with sex, we address the pelvic floor, which is either through the use of dilators, referring them to pelvic floor physical therapy, or other sexual devices that we use in the MUSIC program.  Dr. Hope Rugo: This is really helpful, and I think that for many of us in practice, we really want to get the specifics of what you use. I think this prasterone, the idea of DHEA is really very interesting and something that personally I haven't used, but we did use in the distant past before there was an FDA-approved version.   So I guess I have several questions just to ask about the details. So one is, when you prescribe this, do you find it's generally covered by insurance? And when you say low dose, do you mean just try it once a week? And then do you use the estrogen tablets, the brand names are often Yuvafem or Vagifem, we often use those twice a week. How often do you use them and do you use the estrogen ring also? What are the absolute specifics of what you're recommending to these women? And do you feel like sometimes in patients who are developing these symptoms that early use can help avoid the more severe symptoms and therefore reduce the exposure?   And lastly, just to say, that paper which was so interesting about the slightly increased risk of recurrence, I felt was so flawed in terms of what people were using and if they were taking their hormone therapy and risk of recurrence, the risk of the cancer itself, that I really felt like I couldn't make anything out of it in terms of the risk to patients. But I'm really interested in your specific recommendations.  Dr. Kristin Rojas: Thanks for asking about specifics. And I'm happy to give our treatment algorithms here, which we also discussed in our session and we listed in our EdBook manuscript. We do pelvic exams in the MUSIC program and I often find that there's very specific points in the vestibule or the opening of the vagina that are tender and have pain, specifically, what's known as the posterior fourchette, which is the kind of connection between the right and the left side towards the posterior aspect. So, I usually start with a 1% estradiol cream and have patients tap it to the outside and then bring in a dilator and have patients use not only a silicone lubricant, but put some of the estradiol cream on the dilator. And so that brings the product up to the top of the vagina for patients that have some of those anatomic changes that I discussed.   So this is 1 option, and we really don't have a lot of issues with insurance authorization for the cream, just every once in a while. We can also use a 4 microgram or a 10 microgram dose of estradiol, which is a tablet, which are newer options. This is in contrast to the old pharmacokinetic studies that use 25 micrograms. So this is much, much lower. I do run into some prior authorization issues with those because there tend to be newer versions of this. But as you mentioned, the estradiol ring, which I do think is a great option and when you calculate it out, releases a very low dose of estradiol every day. And it's good for patients who want a more low maintenance regimen. The only challenge I've had with that is it's a large rigid ring. And for patients who already have those anatomic changes, it can be really hard to place that in the vagina.   And so, just like you said, early prevention and treatment of these issues can prevent not only anatomic changes, but even potentially the need for exposure for larger doses of hormones. For all of those options, I tend to do it once or twice a week and then can move up. But we sometimes get kind of creative in how we use these options in terms of placing them on the dilator, placing them externally. For patients that have recurrent urinary tract infections, I also have them kind of tap some of the estradiol cream around the urethra as well to improve the urethral and potentially bladder microbiome and decrease risk of recurrent UTIs.  Dr. Hope Rugo: That's really interesting, and I think those specifics are incredibly helpful. We also will check, although I have to say there's no data to support it, the serum estradiol levels in patients who are using more than our minimal amount. We have plenty of studies that have shown that there really isn't systemic estrogen if people are using very low doses. But we will check sometimes, just sometimes people use these topical creams where they get premenopausal levels of estrogen, which of course we don't want. So, this is an incredibly helpful and useful discussion.    One of the other things that happens for these patients and our younger patients, which breast cancer is still increasing in small numbers in younger patients every year, and many of these patients have hormone receptor positive disease. And it just breaks your heart to see a 38-year-old who is planning to get pregnant next month with their new partner who develops a hormone receptor positive breast cancer. and we want to give people all the options they possibly can. We are strong proponents for harvesting eggs and either freezing eggs or embryos before you start treatment. And we figure we always have 2 weeks for breast cancer. We also use ovarian function suppression during chemo just for whatever help it might have.   But then after patients have finished their treatment and they're on hormone therapy, it's a really big issue for women about when they can have a child because we don't want to wait until they're 45. So, you had noted in your article that some women could take a break from endocrine therapy after 18 to 24 months to try and conceive. Can you tell me a little more about that?  Dr. Kristin Rojas: Sure. Well, this aspect of our discussion was very well presented by my colleague, Dr. Terri Woodard from MD Anderson, a reproductive endocrinologist, and she also put together the aspect of this for our manuscript. She talks about how fertility counseling and referral is probably underutilized, but definitely indicated for most of these patients who are of pregnancy age or premenopausal status. And observational data for a long time didn't show that pregnancy after treatment worsened oncologic outcomes. However, patients as well as many providers had reservations.   So, it's been very helpful that we now have a prospective, large, international trial known as the POSITIVE trial, the early results of which came out earlier this year, which showed that women, after 18 to 24 months, could interrupt endocrine therapy and did not have a worsened short-term oncologic outcome. And those are women with early-stage breast cancer. However, there is a concern that many patients do take longer to get pregnant in that age group or after treatment, potentially if they've received chemo. There is a concern about the duration of time that they're not on endocrine therapy afterwards, which might be further clarified in later analyses. So that's my takeaway from that study, which did show us that very helpful, reassuring information. But I think we're still waiting for the long-term data and it's definitely still a very important patient-centered discussion.   Dr. Hope Rugo: This is a really excellent point, and I think that one of the things of a trial like this, which is sort of a registry study, is that we're always going to speak with our feet to some degree. So, if patients have very, very high risk of recurrence and highly proliferative disease, we might not want them to stop at 18 months because their risks are so high early. So, it has to be a risk versus benefit discussion for individual patients, of course. But I think this data was incredibly reassuring.   It was interesting there were some patients who hadn't restarted their endocrine therapy. In the paper in the New England Journal, it told us that some of those patients were still trying to conceive. But one of the things that's going to be really important for these patients is to really make a big effort on the part of our clinical practices to get patients to restart their hormone therapy. It's very hard to do that, as you can imagine, in that setting.    Another area here is monitoring bone health. And I know that's not part of the MUSIC clinic per se because you're really focusing on GSM and other areas that we've just discussed, which are so incredibly important. And it's funny, bone health is silent, right? So, although some patients don't want to take aromatase inhibitors because they're worried about losing further bone density, they don't feel it. So that's, of course, a different kind of a toxicity. But we know that by suppressing ovarian function in young women, we cause a lot of bone loss, and in older women, already in menopause, that this continuous loss of bone increases the risk of fractures, which can be a huge impact on quality of life and even survival in some cases. So, we're really interested in trying to prevent bone demineralization and reducing the risk of fractures. I believe that Matteo Lambertini from Italy discussed this in your paper and that there's a lot of discussion about use of denosumab and zoledronate. I wonder if you could just comment a little bit on that in our last couple of minutes.  Dr. Kristin Rojas: Well, as you said, my colleague Dr. Lambertini put this aspect of our paper together, but he did put together a very nice summary of bisphosphonates and denosumab and separated their use by premenopausal and postmenopausal patients because the data surrounding those patient populations is slightly different or nuanced. But as you mentioned, it is important to monitor these patients' bone density. We have our standard recommendations such as a calcium-enriched diet, resistance and weight-bearing exercise, and vitamin D for patients, for those patients with a vitamin D deficiency or at risk of bone density loss. And so these pharmacologic agents can also help decrease bone mineral density loss and potentially decrease or likely decrease bone recurrences, which, as we know, influences survival. I think he provides a very nice summary of that, as you mentioned.  Dr. Hope Rugo: I think that's so incredibly important. And thank you for really emphasizing the weight-bearing exercise and checking vitamin D and making sure patients are taking vitamin D and at least some calcium. And then, of course, our institution, we work closely with our endocrinologists specializing in bone as well, when issues come up about risk of osteonecrosis of the jaw, and we require dental clearance for everybody starting medication just to make sure that we've reduced risk to the patient. And then when we're trying to think about stopping denosumab and should we bridge with zoledronate to reduce the risk of fracture, we also talk to our bone doc. So it's really important.   And in our last just 1 minute, I know you were thinking of saying something about measuring estrogen in the blood in patients who are using vaginal estrogens. Do you do that?   Dr. Kristin Rojas: Yeah, great question. I'm glad you brought that up. We actually don't routinely do this in the MUSIC program, but it is an important aspect to think about today, because I don't know about where you are, but here in South Florida we have a lot of patients who are receiving therapies outside of the FDA-approved space and these are typically marketed as bioidentical hormones, which is a marketing term. Oftentimes, they'll get either transdermal formulations or pelleted hormone therapy that can result in really high superphysiologic testosterone or estrogen levels. And so we typically, for those patients, do try to get them off those non FDA-approved therapies because the safety of those is unknown.   Dr. Hope Rugo: That's really interesting and so helpful. Yes, I know this whole idea of bioidentical hormones drives me crazy, but I think that's great that you brought that up, actually. We do measure it. Who knows? I think if you're really worried, measuring “Yeah, everybody's hot flashes went away,” it's probably worthwhile checking.   This was such a fabulous conversation. I learned so much. We really appreciate your contribution to the educational manuscript, to the educational program, and your fabulous insights with us today. Thank you so much for participating on the ASCO Daily News Podcast. I think everyone will find this very helpful.   Dr. Kristin Rojas: Thank you so much for having me.   Dr. Hope Rugo: And thank you to you, our listeners, for joining us today. You'll find a link to Dr. Rojas and her colleagues' article in the transcript of this episode and in the 2023 ASCO Educational Book, which features practice-changing oncology research and a wide range of compelling studies on quality and equitable cancer care.    Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again.    Disclaimer:   The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.    Follow today's speakers:   Dr. Hope Rugo  @hoperugo  Dr. Kristin Rojas  @kristinrojasmd    Follow ASCO on social media:    @ASCO on Twitter    ASCO on Facebook    ASCO on LinkedIn      Disclosures:   Dr. Hope Rugo:  Honoraria: Puma Biotechnology, Mylan, Samsung Bioepis, Chugai Pharma, Blueprint MedicinesConsulting or Advisory Role: Napo PharmaceuticalsResearch Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Genentech, Merck, Odonate Therapeutics, Daiichi Sankyo, Sermonix Pharmaceuticals, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Ayala Pharmaceuticals, Astellas Pharma, Seattle Genetics, Macrogenics, Boehringer Ingelheim, Polyphor  Dr. Kristin Rojas:   Honoraria: Pacira Pharmaceuticals  Consulting or Advisory Role: Roche Diagnostics, Merck  Research Funding (Inst): Bristol Myers Squibb Foundation       

How should community oncologists best approach ESR1 mutations in breast cancer, given the latest findings? Recent data presented at the 2023 American Society of Clinical Oncology (ASCO) Annual Meeting and elsewhere have shed light on issues related to ESR1 testing and treatment selection. Bob Figlin, MD, the Steven Spielberg Family Chair in hematology oncology at Cedars-Sinai Cancer in Los Angeles, speaks with Hope Rugo, MD, professor of medicine in the division of hematology and oncology, department of medicine, and director of breast oncology and clinical trials education at the University of California San Francisco Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center, about how to put new findings into practice. Dr. Rugo provides key recommendations, as she explains that “It's really important that we don't just throw drugs together in clinical practice.”

CME credits: 0.50 Valid until: 19-04-2024 Claim your CME credit at https://reachmd.com/programs/cme/better-early-than-late-cdk46-inhibition-in-hr-her2-early-breast-cancer/15094/ HR+/HER2- breast cancer accounts for approximately 70% of early breast cancer. Now that the CDK4/6 inhibitor abemaciclib has been approved in the United States and internationally for the treatment of HR+/HER2- early breast cancer, it's important to keep up with the latest data for its use. Listen in so Drs. Hope Rugo and Peter Schmid can keep you up to date on the most effective ways to treat your patients.=

Host: Charles Turck, PharmD, BCPS, BCCCP Guest: Hope S. Rugo, MD, FASCO The treatment landscape for metastatic breast cancer is rapidly evolving. With all of these new advancements and research, it can be helpful to review the available treatment options and best practices for selecting an approach after treatment with a CDK4/6 inhibitor has failed. That's why Dr. Charles Turck discusses how we can treat patients with metastatic breast cancer in the second- and third-line setting with Dr. Hope Rugo, who's a Professor of Medicine in the Division of Hematology and Oncology at the University of California San Francisco Hellen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center.

Featuring perspectives from Drs Aditya Bardia, Matthew Goetz, Virginia Kaklamani, Kevin Kalinsky and Hope Rugo, including the following topics: Current Role of Genomic Assays for Hormone Receptor (HR)-Positive Localized Breast Cancer  Introduction (0:00) Case: A premenopausal woman in her early 40s with 9-mm, Grade III, ER/PR-positive, HER2-negative, node-negative infiltrating ductal carcinoma (IDC) – 21-gene Recurrence Score® 22 — Alan B Astrow, MD (3:39) Case: A premenopausal woman in her mid 30s with 3.6-cm, ER/PR-positive, HER2-low (IHC 1+), sentinel node-positive (4/4) multifocal IDC after bilateral mastectomies, adjuvant AC-T and ovarian function suppression (OFS)/aromatase inhibitor, Ki67 50% — Laila Agrawal, MD (9:40) Dr Goetz presentation (19:43) Optimizing the Management of Localized ER-Positive Breast Cancer  Case: A woman in her early 40s with 5.5-cm, ER/PR-positive, HER2-negative, node-positive (20/21) IDC after bilateral mastectomies, bilateral salpingo-oophorectomy, adjuvant AC-T and initiation of letrozole/abemaciclib, Ki-67 3% — Susmitha Apuri, MD (32:22) Case: A woman in her mid 50s with de novo ER-positive, PR-negative, HER2-negative ulcerated breast cancer with pulmonary and extensive spinal metastases — Jennifer L Dallas, MD (40:45)  Dr Kaklamani presentation (45:32) Selection and Sequencing of Therapy for Patients with ER-Positive Metastatic Breast Cancer (mBC)  Case: A woman in her early 50s with ER/PR-positive, HER2-low mBC with a PI3KCA mutation who experiences a dramatic response to rechallenge with fulvestrant and a CDK4/6i (abemaciclib); now with progression and cytopenias — Kapisthalam (KS) Kumar, MD (59:07) Dr Kalinsky presentation (1:09:53) Recent Appreciation of HER2 Low as a Unique Subset of HR-Positive Breast Cancer  Case: A premenopausal woman in her late 30s with ER/PR-positive, HER2-low (IHC 1+) IDC after adjuvant tamoxifen and OFS x 5 years, now with bone and liver metastases — Dr Agrawal (1:19:45) Dr Bardia presentation (1:24:29) Novel Strategies Under Investigation for Patients with HR-Positive mBC  Case: A woman in her early 90s with ER/PR-positive, HER2-low (IHC 1+) mBC and progressive disease on multiple lines of endocrine and chemotherapy receives T-DXd — Dr Astrow (1:38:44) Case: A woman in her mid 40s with ER/PR-positive, HER2-low (IHC 2+) mBC who has received fulvestrant/abemaciclib, now receiving exemestane/everolimus – ESR1 and PIK3CA mutations — Dr Dallas (1:44:15) Dr Rugo presentation (1:49:58) CME information and select publications

CME credits: 0.50 Valid until: 21-12-2023 Claim your CME credit at https://reachmd.com/programs/cme/utilization-and-management-of-antibody-drug-conjugates-in-metastatic-breast-cancer-the-relationship-between-adcs-and-her2/14552/ New data for sequencing antibody-drug conjugates (ADCs) in HER2 metastatic breast cancer have hit the conference circuit. Listen as Drs. William Gradishar, Javier Cortés, and Hope Rugo dissect the data surrounding ADCs in different types of HER2 metastatic breast cancer. Make sure you're up to date and offering your patients the best care.

Learning ObjectivesReview the epidemiology and clinical characteristics of HR+, HER2- early-breast cancer (EBC), and identify patients at an elevated risk of disease recurrence as a means of guiding treatment.Appraise the current treatment landscape in HR+, HER2- EBC, including the established and emerging evidentiary base for novel therapies in the adjuvant setting, expert consensus guidelines, and FDA-approved indications.Recognize treatment-related adverse events associated with oral therapies used in HR+, HER2- EBC and implement evidence-supported mitigation and management protocols.Using real-world patient case examples, design on-label treatment plans for HR+, HER2- EBC at high risk for recurrence, emphasizing the critical need for effective communication and coordination strategies among the multidisciplinary community-based breast cancer care team.Evaluate adaptive approaches for promoting adherence and persistence to oral anticancer therapies, highlighting common reasons for noncompliance and the impact of patient counseling and shared decision-making (SDM).Presented by:Hope S. Rugo, MDProfessor, Division of Hematology/OncologyDirector, Breast Oncology Clinical Trials EducationUCSF Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer CenterSan Francisco, CAPresented by Creative Educational Concepts, LLC.Supported through an independent educational grant from Lilly.

Host: Pavani Chalasani MD, MPH Guest: Hope S. Rugo, MD Results from the TROPiCS-02 trial may impact survival for patients with receptor–positive/HER2-negative breast cancer. To find out why, Dr. Hope Rugo from the University of California San Francisco Comprehensive Cancer Center joins Dr. Pavani Chalasani to talk about the study and how it might impact the future of breast cancer treatment.

Host: Pavani Chalasani, MD, MPH Guest: Hope S. Rugo, MD, FASCO Results from the TROPiCS-02 trial may impact survival for patients with receptor–positive/HER2-negative breast cancer. To find out why, Dr. Hope Rugo from the University of California San Francisco Comprehensive Cancer Center joins Dr. Pavani Chalasani to talk about the study and how it might impact the future of breast cancer treatment.

Dr. Hope Rugo, University of California at San Francisco, joins Hafiz Sikder for an engaging discussion on the world of Breast Cancer. The discussion ranges from key ESMO data, the future of care, and healthcare disparities.

Dr Hope Rugo is a Professor of Medicine in the Division of Hematology and Oncology at the University of California, San Francisco. Dr Rugo is a Principal Investigator of multiple clinical trials focusing on combining novel targeted therapeutics with standard treatment. We asked Dr Rugo to explain her research topic: New Options in HR+ Breast Cancer – TROPICS-02 and beyond.

Featuring perspectives from Drs Javier Cortés, Matthew Goetz, Erika Hamilton, Ian Krop, Hope Rugo and Sara Tolaney, including the following topics: Introduction (0:00) Optimizing the Management of ER-Positive Localized Breast Cancer — Matthew P Goetz, MD (7:50) New and Novel Treatment Strategies for Localized Triple-Negative Breast Cancer (TNBC) — Erika Hamilton, MD (38:35) Considerations in the Care of Patients with Localized HER2-Positive Breast Cancer — Ian E Krop, MD, PhD (56:03) Evolving Clinical Decision-Making for Patients with HER2-Positive Metastatic Breast Cancer (mBC) — Javier Cortés, MD, PhD (1:18:47) Selection and Sequencing of Therapy for ER-Positive, HER2-Negative mBC — Hope S Rugo, MD (1:40:41) Recent Advances in the Care of Patients with Metastatic TNBC — Sara M Tolaney, MD, MPH (2:11:40) CME information and select publications

What is triple-negative breast cancer and how is it identified? How can triple-negative breast cancers escape the immune system? And how can determining whether circulating tumor DNA in blood samples be used to predict metastatic breast cancer or treatment resistance in patients with aggressive disease? BCRF investigator since 2007, Dr. Hope Rugo answers these questions and many more on the latest episode of Investigating Breast Cancer.

Dr. Allison Zibelli, of the Sidney Kimmel Cancer Center – Jefferson Health, and Dr. Hope Rugo, of the Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center at the University of California, San Francisco, discuss the practice-changing DESTINY-Breast04 trial as well as novel therapies in metastatic HR+/HER2- breast cancer from the TROPiCS-02 and MAINTAIN studies, all of which were featured at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting.   TRANSCRIPT Dr. Allison Zibelli: Hello. I'm Dr. Allison Zibelli, your host for the ASCO Daily News Podcast today. I'm a vice-chair and breast medical oncologist at the Sidney Kimmel Cancer Center, Jefferson Health in Philadelphia. My guest today is Dr. Hope Rugo, a professor of medicine and the director of Breast Oncology and Clinical Trials Education at the Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center at the University of California, San Francisco. We'll be discussing key advances in breast cancer that were featured at the 2022 ASCO Annual Meeting. Our full disclosures are available in the show notes, and disclosures of all guests on the podcasts can be found on our transcripts at asco.org/podcasts. Hope, it's great to talk to you today. Dr. Hope Rugo: Nice to talk to you, too. Dr. Allison Zibelli: Let's begin with perhaps the most exciting abstract at ASCO this year, which was the DESTINY-Breast04 study, that's LBA3, a randomized phase 3 study of trastuzumab deruxtecan versus treatment of physician's choice in patients with HER2-low, unresectable and/or metastatic breast cancer. What are your thoughts about this study? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, of course, this is a hugely practice-changing study as was noted in the second-to-last slide by the discussant [Dr.] Pat LoRusso. So, antibody-drug conjugates are really the next step in delivering chemotherapy to cancer cells. The antibody-drug conjugates allow targeted delivery of a toxin to the cancer cell. I think we didn't understand how important this was going to be. These second, sort of, verging on third-generation antibody-drug conjugates use an antibody approach and to then have a new generation of linkers, which allow the drug to be released locally, but to then have drugs which pack a big bang for the buck. So, the way antibody-drug conjugates are constructed, you need to have a drug that actually can't be given as a naked drug because it's too toxic because you're giving just very small amounts of this drug that are delivered directly to the cancer cell. And the other really critical part of this is that the drug-to-antibody ratio of at least the successful and new antibody-drug conjugates (ADC) is quite high in the 7.5 to 8 toxins per antibody. Now, what that's resulted in is really interesting, is that there's a bystander effect. So, the toxin itself can leak out of the cancer cell that it's targeted and kill neighboring cells, but also because of the construct of these antibody-drug conjugates, what's likely happening is even if the cancer cell's a very low expression of the target, really low, you're able to actually get that ADC into the cancer cell to kill the cancer cell. So that may be a big part of the so-called bystander effect. So trastuzumab deruxtecan is biosimilar trastuzumab linked to a topoisomerase inhibitor deruxtecan, and what happened here was that of course, we saw remarkable data in HER2+ disease, unbelievable p-values in DESTINY-Breast03 compared to T-DM1, a first-generation ADC. But in DESTINY-Breast04, we targeted a population of patients largely with hormone receptor-positive disease who had a little expression of HER2, 1 plus or 2 plus by immunohistochemistry and no gene amplification. And this trial, which randomly assigned patients 2:1 and included just 58 patients with triple-negative disease. So in this trial, 480 had hormone receptor-positive breast cancer, a median of 1 line of prior chemotherapy. They were only allowed up to 2. They were refractory to endocrine therapy, a median of 3 lines of endocrine therapy. In the overall patients and in the hormone receptor-positive patients, there was actually a doubling in progression-free survival (PFS). It started very early, and it continued throughout, and at every landmark analysis, T-DXd was better than the treatment of physician choice that patients were randomly assigned to. It's also important when you're thinking about trials like this to think about what the treatment of physician choice was, and it was all chemotherapy regimens we would use. Paclitaxel, nab-paclitaxel, capecitabine, eribulin, or gemcitabine. And, so, I think that that doesn't bring up any questions. When they looked at the hormone receptor-positive group, they saw, if anything, even a bigger benefit overall. Now, the other endpoint of this trial was overall survival, and at this first analysis, they saw an improvement in overall survival that was quite dramatic. The absolute difference was 6.4 months, which is pretty amazing for an overall survival difference. And then they looked at this exploratory endpoint at the 58 patients who were valuable at triple-negative breast cancer, and then that group of patients, also saw an improvement in PFS of 5.6 months, an improvement in overall survival of 9.9 months, very small group, but amazing data. The forest plots are exactly what you want to see, all the dots line up to the left of 1, and overall responses improved. One of the concerns with this drug has been toxicity. The toxicity showed no new toxicity signals, which is really important. Nausea is the biggest issue that we deal with. It's mostly grade 1 and 2, but still something that's important to manage. A little bit of hair loss, not much in the way of bone marrow suppression, which is interesting. Interstitial lung disease (ILD) or pneumonitis continues to be an important issue to follow. 12% of patients had ILD of any grade. Most of it was grade 1 and 2, but 3 patients died, representing 0.8%. So, this really highlights the importance of monitoring and managing pneumonitis. Regardless of that, few patients had a reduced ejection fraction, but again, very, in general, low grade. This is really a new standard of care, and the standing ovation was really due to the fact that all we do is dedicate ourselves to trying to help patients live longer and better with their cancers, and in this trial, we have a huge win that has no qualifications. We can help patients not only control their disease longer but live longer with T-Dxd compared to standard chemotherapy. Dr. Allison Zibelli: So, Hope, I know as a practicing medical oncologist, I find that our metastatic triple-negative patients are often the biggest therapeutic challenges for us. Will they be doing larger studies with these patients that are HER2-low? Dr. Hope Rugo: It's a really good point. About 65% of patients with hormone receptor-positive disease or so-called HER2-low, centrally confirmed in the study. So, a fair number of people, about a quarter, did not have HER2-low disease when they were tested centrally. In the triple-negative population, who really are ER, PR, HER2- by standard definitions, about a third of the patients might have HER2-low disease. So, there's a lot of interest in further exploring that and looking at the patients who have ultra-HER2-low disease, so between and 1 plus a little bit of expression. That's been studied in the hormone receptor-positive population in DESTINY-Breast06. But there's a lot of interesting further defining that triple-negative population, so to speak, they're going to be triple-negative plus now and understanding what the benefit is in that population. So definitely will be looked at more now moving forward. Dr. Allison Zibelli: Thank you. So, let's move on to Abstract 1002. And the results from the phase 1, 2 study of patritumab deruxtecan, a HER3-directed antibody-drug conjugate, and patients with HER3 expressing metastatic breast cancer. What are your thoughts about this study? Dr. Hope Rugo: That's a really interesting, another one of these second- to third-generation antibody-drug conjugates. It's just the antibody, instead of being the usual, sort of, HER2 or TROP2 that we're used to thinking about is directed to HER3, 1 of the HER family of proteins. This is interesting. There's actually been a lot of work trying to target HER3 with naked antibodies with disappointing results, although I have to say most of the studies really didn't push it too far. So, with this antibody drug construct, deruxtecan, which is the same as in T-DXd and another TROP2 ADC Dato-DXd is used. So, I will say they do need to change the toxin in the next generation of ADCs. But they looked at, at first did a dose-finding study which has previously been presented, and then a dose expansion in both hormone receptor-positive HER2-negative disease and triple-negative disease. All the triple-negative patients had HER3 high disease by immunohistochemistry, and the hormone-receptor-positive patients were enrolled in 2 cohorts, HER3 high and HER3 low. And the median number of prior treatment regimens that patients had received in the hormone-receptor-positive group was 6 and 2 for the triple-negative group, but there was a huge range, up to 13 lines of treatment. They only had 14 patients with HER2+ disease. So, it's a little bit hard to know what to do with that patient group, but they were heavily pretreated 5.5 prior lines of therapy. The confirmed overall response rate in the 113 patients with combined HER3 high and low was 30%, very impressive, heavily pretreated patients. For triple-negative disease all HER3 high, it was 23%. Again, very nice. And there were 14 patients with HER2+ disease that also were HER3 high. It was about 43%. So those are nice responses, but we always want to know how durable is that. The duration of response ranged from 6 to over 8 months in those 3 different groups. So, these were quite durable. It wasn't any 2- to 3-month duration of response. So very impressive. And then when they looked to see, did it matter whether you had HER3 expression that was high or low in the hormone-receptor positive group, they actually did see responses in the HER3-low group, some very good responses. Overall, there were less patients in that group, but it does suggest that maybe you would still see responses in the HER3-low group, very impressive. And then 1 really interesting correlative study they did was they looked to see what happened to the HER3 expression on the tumor cell over time, and it went down. So, you treated the HER3 expression in most of the patients just dropped off completely, which is really interesting. It didn't have any association with clinical activity, but it's sort of an interesting correlative endpoint. This is a drug that overall was pretty well tolerated. They saw a similar toxicity to T-DXd with a lot of nauseous, a little bit of alopecia, a little bit more bone marrow suppression than we're used to seeing with T-DXd. So, neutropenia was seen in about 10% of patients at the lower dose and about a quarter of the patients at the higher dose. Overall, pretty well tolerated. Now, interstitial lung disease is a toxicity with this construct, and they saw ILD of 7% but most cases were grade 1 and 2. The other interesting toxicity that's unique to this agent is thrombocytopenia. So, they saw a grade 3 or greater rate of thrombocytopenia of 27% in the lower dose group, and in the larger group that received the higher dose, 39% of grade 3 or greater thrombocytopenia, so platelets less than 100,000. Turns out that when you stop the drug, the platelets do come back, so that's a good thing. Sometimes we saw long-term thrombocytopenia with T-DM1. They didn't see bad toxicity like bleeding, but it is something that needs to be managed with this drug because we're not great at managing thrombocytopenia. In any case, it has fast-track designation for another solid tumor, not breast cancer, and we'll have to see where this fits into our dizzying array of very effective ADCs now. Dr. Allison Zibelli: The practicing medical oncologist is not used to testing for HER3 in our patients with breast cancer. How common is it? Dr. Hope Rugo: HER3 expression is quite common in hormone receptor-positive disease, a little less common in triple-negative breast cancer. So, I think that we would see expression if we were going to be treating patients with this particular approach. Dr. Allison Zibelli: All right. Let's move on to Abstract 507, which reported long-term outcomes of adjuvant denosumab in breast cancer, specifically fracture reduction and survival results from 3,425 patients in a randomized double-blind, placebo-controlled ABCSG-18 trial. What are your thoughts about this study? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, this trial, this is an update of a study that previously has been presented and published, most recent publication was in Lancet Oncology in 2019, and these patients were randomly assigned to receive denosumab at 60 milligrams, important to note the dose, subcutaneously every 6 months versus placebo every 6 months, and they did get placebo subcutaneous injections. And this treatment continued through their endocrine therapy. They showed a dramatic reduction in fracture rate, and that has been maintained over time. We were really surprised enough to suggest that maybe Austrian people didn't go into the sun, so they got more Vitamin D deficiency, hard to know, but the hazard ratio is 0.5. It's unbelievable the number of fractures, 92 for denosumab but 176 for placebo, a P value of less than .0001. So, this is a real endpoint, treating patients who are receiving endocrine therapy that, in this case, non-steroidal aromatase inhibitor therapy that can increase bone loss, have a reduced fracture rate when they received denosumab. So that is the big take-home message, and a medium follow-up of 8 years. But the secondary endpoints included disease-free survival. They had about 20% disease-free survival events and 8% deaths, and what they saw was really interesting. So, the caveat is that 16% of patients were unblinded at the first analysis and half of them got denosumab, so it messed up their results a little bit, but the disease-free survival was significantly better in patients who received denosumab, and the hazard ratio of 0.83 and the hazard ratio does not cross 1. So that's very interesting, and even overall survival, they looked at 2 other endpoints, bone metastasis-free survival, and overall survival. They also trend towards an improvement with a hazard ratio of 0.8 for both of them. And they didn't actually see toxicity. So, patients' brittle bone fractures and osteonecrosis of the jaw (ONJ) are all concerning, but they really just did not see any risks in this patient population. I think there was 1 patient that had what they thought was a brittle bone fracture. Obviously, they watched the mouth very carefully as well. Really dramatic, and I think it's kind of disappointing that we never had any registration approach in this, and also not well-understood why the D-CARE study did not show a benefit, but I think D-CARE was designed differently. This is a better design to focus on our patients and the specific issues, and I think it's intriguing and should be considered as part of our treatment regimen for patients who are at risk for bone loss and have early-stage breast cancer on an aromatase inhibitor. Dr. Allison Zibelli: I've been using DEXA scans and offering denosumab to my patients on AIs that have osteopenia or osteoporosis. Should we be considering it in women with normal bone mass? Dr. Hope Rugo: I think not yet. Unfortunately, this trial was not immediately powered for cancer outcome, although the data are very encouraging. We don't know what the relationship is to bone loss, and providing an environment that's friendlier for cancer cells. So, do you have to have bone loss in order to have the risk that you're reducing with these agents? Certainly, that's what we've seen with zoledronate. So, I think that we don't have sufficient data to use this simply to treat cancer, but I do think that we should be considering this as an agent to give patients who have bone loss, either when you're starting an aromatase inhibitor or during the course of therapy. I think it's well tolerated, and a subcutaneous injection is not difficult. One of the questions that's come up for people is do you get bone loss that increases your risk of fracture after you stop therapy. But clearly from these updated data, these patients were off therapy. They did not have an increase of fractures and the patients treated with denosumab fared much better, I mean the hazard ratio of 0.5. Dr. Allison Zibelli: Let's move on to TROPiCS-02. That's LBA1001. This is a randomized phase 3 study of sacituzumab govitecan versus treatment of physician's choice in patients with hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative advanced breast cancer. How do you think this study will impact practice? Dr. Hope Rugo: That's a great question. I presented this data, and I think I presented it on a Saturday, and on Sunday we saw the plenary talk of DESTINY-Breast04. These patients enrolled in TROPiCs-02 had a median number of lines of prior chemo 3 with a range of up to 8 actually, compared to a median number of lines as 1 in the DESTINY-Breast04 population. We included all hormone receptor-positive HER2 negative-advanced breast cancer, not centrally confirmed. They included just the HER2 low subset that was centrally confirmed. Everybody in our study had received prior CDK4/6 inhibitors compared to about 70% in DB04. And then 95% of patients in this trial had visceral mets. So, we did really treat a patient population who had very advanced high risk hormone receptor-positive breast cancer. As you know, we saw an improvement and progression-free survival with a hazard ratio of 0.66 meeting the endpoint. We needed a hazard ratio of 0.7, highly statistically significant P value .0003, but the median difference in PFS was only 1.5 months, and overall survival data is not yet mature. So that's brought up the question about how this drug should be used because there was a big fall off in the first 2 months where patients had rapid disease progression with heavily pretreated chemotherapy-resistant disease. We did landmark analyses and there were big separations in PFS at 6, 9, and 12 months, and 12 months, it was 21% patients free of progression and death at 1 year versus 7% for the TPC arm. So, it was a tripling of patients who were free of progression at one year. I think that's clinically relevant. This drug is associated with more neutropenia. That's the primary issue to manage, and probably half of the patients need growth factors at some point. When we looked at other endpoints response to ratio response, etc., we're better with Sacituzumab. So where does this all fit into our treatment paradigm. I think there's the HER2-low patients who will now receive T-DXd up in the, I hope, second line and not in lieu of endocrine therapy, when they're ready for chemo. But there are patients who don't have HER2-low disease and then there are patients who are going to be in the later line setting. So, I do think it still has a place in the treatment department, receptor-positive metastatic breast cancer. The results show that it was better than chemotherapy, physician choice based on our national and international guidelines, and that's better for our patients to have that option. Overall survival data obviously is looked for with great interest and that will help us put this into the right paradigm. And then I also hope that real world data will help us understand how sequential treatment with these different ADCs will benefit our patients. Dr. Allison Zibelli: This is really exciting. Do you think that we're maybe coming toward the end of conventional chemotherapy, especially for women with HER2-positive disease? Dr. Hope Rugo: I wonder if we are. I think we were interested in T-DM1 for HER2-positive disease early on. We've seen some really nice pathologic complete response data as well as adjuvant data in the attempt trial in patients who had stage I disease. Now that we have these second-, third-generation ADCs, T-DXd, I think this could potentially completely replace our chemotherapy. We still have to deal with alopecia. And I will point out ADCs are still chemotherapy. They're just a much more efficient and effective way of delivering treatment, and we need to be very careful to manage the toxicity. Dr. Allison Zibelli: Next, we're going to talk about the main pain trial that's LBA1004, which is a randomized phase 2 trial of fulvestrant or exemestane with or without ribociclib after progression on anti-estrogen therapy plus cyclin-dependent kinase 4/6 inhibition in patients with unresectable or hormone receptor-positive HER2-negative metastatic breast cancer, in other words CDK4/6 after CDK4/6. What are your takeaways here? Dr. Hope Rugo: First, just amazing that an investigator-initiated trial could do this well and be placebo-controlled. So, kudos to the principal investigator (PI) [Dr.] Kevin Kalinsky. This trial is a small phase 2 trial. A reasonable number, 119 patients were randomly assigned and evaluable patients could have received up to 1 line of prior chemotherapy for metastatic disease. If you had received prior exemestane, you received fulvestrant, if you received prior fulvestrant, you received exemestane, and actually if you looked at the number of patients who had received fulvestrant, it was 99 versus only 20 with exemestane. So important to keep in mind. If you looked at the overall population where the primary endpoint was progression-free survival, the hazard ratio is 0.57, just median PFS of 2.8 months in patients receiving endocrine therapy and placebo and 5.3 months for patients receiving endocrine therapy and ribociclib. So was this ribociclib after ribociclib or ribociclib after something else. 86% of patients had received palbociclib as their prior CDK4/6 inhibitor, and only about 10% to 14% had received prior ribociclib. So, there's a predominance of palbociclib followed by ribociclib. The other thing that's important to keep in mind is how sick this patient population was. Very few had received prior chemotherapy in the less than 10% range, visceral metastases in about 60%. So that's helpful. Only 19% or so had received 2 or more endocrine therapies from metastases. So, most people did this as their second line treatment. The PFS, when you looked at fulvestrant or exemestane, looked like the benefit was relatively similar, but you know you got 20 patients in the exemestane arm. The hazard ratios, looking at the subgroup analyses, all looked pretty similar, and the overall response and clinical benefit rate were better with continuing the cyclin dependent kinases (CDK) inhibitor. There was interesting sub-analysis looking at mutations and how that affected things. And they looked at patients who had ESR1 mutations or had wild-type ESR1. 42% had ESR1 mutations at study entry, very similar to what we've seen. In that group of patients, remember it's only 33 where they had this analysis, they saw a lot of other mutations. So p53, PIK3CA, FGFR, CCND1—those patients did not benefit. Only 33 patients. No benefit at all, very short PFS, about 3 months. The patients who had ESR1 wild type seemed to benefit a lot, 45 patients going from about 3 months to a little over 8 months. So, this is all hypothesis-generating data. I wouldn't run out and use this as your standard of care now because it is small data. But when the patient doesn't have other good options, I certainly would consider switching the CDK and going on, add that to the next line endocrine therapy. It's important to switch the endocrine therapy. I think we really need to look at the ongoing phase 3 trials to give us better evidence basis and understand the impact of mutations and prior therapy on who might benefit from continued CDK inhibitors after progression on a CDK inhibitor. Dr. Allison Zibelli: I think this is a really exciting trial. We all have a lot of patients on palbociclib and letrozole who've been on for 4, 5 years, and would like to continue with this kind of treatment because the side effects are really manageable. So, I look forward to seeing what's coming in the future with the phase 3 trials. So, let's talk about Abstract 1015, which I thought is a great idea. It looks at the quality of life with ribociclib plus aromatase inhibitor versus abemaciclib plus AI as first-line treatment of hormone receptor-positive, HER2-negative advanced breast cancer, assessed via matching adjusted indirect comparison. Could you tell us what matching adjusted indirect comparison is and why you chose this for the study? Dr. Hope Rugo: It's an interesting question. How do you compare across trials? So, matching this kind of make analysis, we'll call it a make analysis for the purposes of this discussion, allows you to match patients and weight based on their characteristics that might affect patient reported outcomes. And that actually is a way of trying to do a fair cross-trial comparison. So basically, take the study population, you match the inclusion and exclusion criteria, and then you weigh the different criteria so that you can try and make a better association. It's the best way we know of comparing across trials. You know, a lot of people ask why we didn't have PALOMA-2 in here, and that's because they used a different patient reported outcome tool. So, you have to use the same patient reported outcome tool in order to compare. So that's why we did this analysis, and it sort of came on the heels of a survey that Fatima Cardoso presented at San Antonio in 2021, where patients identified diarrhea as a symptom they really didn't like more than everything else. And you can imagine, I think we all have that experience in practice, the unexpected nature of diarrhea and the fact that it does limit your activities and, therefore, quality of life are important. In this analysis, interestingly but not surprisingly, ribociclib favored abemaciclib in diarrhea, and there can be associated appetite loss, so ribociclib also favored abemaciclib for appetite loss. And I thought the last one was interesting—fatigue—because I wouldn't have assumed that fatigue would be different. And maybe it's associated with diarrhea. They have these funny arm symptoms that were better. We don't really know why that was, and it's hard to assess again. We're really not clear based on the differences between the drugs. So, there are limitations to the analysis, but I think that it helps us really in individual patients try and match patients' underlying symptoms with the best treatment to offer them the best quality of life as they're being treated in the metastatic setting. Dr. Allison Zibelli: I thought this study was great because it really centered the experience of the patient and the wishes of the patient. You don't see that designed into many clinical trials, the way this was. So, I thought that was a great feature of this study. Dr. Hope Rugo: I will say that all of the 3 studies that looked at CDK inhibitors, all those 3 studies included patient-reported outcomes. That's an important new approach that is really being focused on. Dr. Allison Zibelli: Do you consider the CDK4/6 inhibitors equivalent in efficacy, and could you substitute them to try to get the side effect profile that you want? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, I think that we saw in the early stage setting that there are differences. Now, across the different trials, there are big differences in patient populations and inclusions as we saw in the PALOMA-2 results that were presented at ASCO [Annual Meeting], whether the patients had prior chemotherapy like in PALOMA-3, whether they had a short disease-free interval, the higher risk patients in PALOMA-2. The PALOMA trials were more broadly inclusive than the other 2 studies, the MONALEESA and MONARCH series of trials. So, we do have to be a little bit careful about comparing apples to oranges, but we have the early-stage results of MONARCH E showing a clinically important difference in outcome whereas the PALLAS and Penelope-B trials didn't. So that sort of puts us into a little bit of a question period. Are these all patient populations or are there differences between the agents? The PFS and the metastatic setting, all the hazard ratios line up. So, in truth, although I know the activity against cyclin-independent kinases are different between agents, we don't still really understand the clinical differences in efficacy, but I think we all are practicing using evidence-based medicine. I wouldn't, for example, substitute a different CDK4/6 inhibitor for abemaciclib in the treatment of early-stage breast cancer. We have to just learn how to manage the diarrhea and use prophylaxis and dose reduce early to manage this and make it tolerable for our patients. And in the metastatic setting, I think we need to follow evidence-based guidelines and use the best data available to decide on the right treatment approach and sequencing for our patients. Dr. Allison Zibelli: Thank you, Hope, for coming on the podcast today. This was a really interesting review of one of the most exciting ASCO [Annual Meetings] I've been to. And thanks for sharing your valuable insights with us and helping us make sense of all this really new exciting data. We really appreciate it. Dr. Hope Rugo: Thank you. And thank you so much for inviting me. Dr. Allison Zibelli: And thank you to our listeners for joining us today. You will find the links to all the abstracts discussed today in the transcript of this episode. Finally, if you value the insights that you hear on the ASCO Daily News Podcast, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps other listeners find us. Thank you.   Disclosures: Dr. Allison Zibelli: None disclosed. Dr. Hope Rugo: Honoraria: Puma Biotechnology, Mylan, Samsung Bioepis, Chugai Pharma, Blueprint Medicines Consulting or Advisory Role: Napo Pharmaceuticals Research Funding (Inst.): OBI Pharma, Pfizer, Novartis, Lilly, Genentech, Merck, Odonate Therapeutics, Daiichi Sankyo, Sermonix Pharmaceuticals, AstraZeneca, Gilead Sciences, Ayala Pharmaceuticals, Astellas Pharma, Seattle Genetics, Macrogenics, Boehringer Ingelheim, Polyphor Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. Guest statements on the podcast do not express the opinions of ASCO. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

There are many new developments in cancer care. This program focuses on three exciting areas of cancer diagnosis and treatment. Dr. Hope Rugo, a leader in breast cancer research, leads a discussion on tumor DNA with Mark Magbanua, Ph.D., novel imagining techniques with Dr. Courtney Lawhn Heath,and CAR T-cell therapy with Dr. Rahul Banerjee. Series: "Mini Medical School for the Public" [Health and Medicine] [Show ID: 37847]

Featuring perspectives from Ms Jamie Carroll, Dr Sara Hurvitz, Ms Kelly Leonard and Dr Hope Rugo, including the following topics: Introduction (0:00) High-Risk Localized ER-Positive, HER2-Negative Breast Cancer (5:07) ER-Positive Metastatic Breast Cancer (28:06) Localized HER2-Positive Breast Cancer (49:15) Metastatic HER2-Positive Breast Cancer (1:07:06) Localized Triple-Negative Breast Cancer (TNBC); Role of Immunotherapy (1:30:08) Metastatic TNBC (1:49:41) CME information and select publications

Featuring perspectives from Dr Hope Rugo, including the following topics: Introduction: DESTINY-Breast03 Trial (0:00) Case: A woman in her mid-60s with ER/PR-negative, HER2-positive metastatic breast cancer (mBC) — Raman Sood, MD (11:57) Case: A woman in her late 60s with ER/PR-negative, HER2-positive mBC — Rohit Gosain, MD (16:14) Case: A woman in her mid-50s with ER/PR-positive, HER2-positive mBC with brain metastases — Laila Agrawal, MD (22:59) Case: A woman in her early 30s with triple-positive mBC and possible mosaicism of TP53 mutation — Syed F Zafar, MD (30:06) Case: A woman in her late 30s with triple-positive, node-negative localized breast cancer — Namrata I Peswani, MD (45:43) Case: A woman in her early 60s with ER/PR-positive, HER2-positive, node-positive invasive ductal carcinoma — Shaachi Gupta, MD, MPH (49:32) Journal Club with Dr Rugo and SABCS® 2021 Preview (55:57) CME information and select publications

Featuring a discussion on the treatment of HER2-positive breast cancer with Dr Hope Rugo, moderated by Dr Neil Love.

Featuring perspectives from Drs Sara Hurvitz, Rita Nanda and Melinda Telli, moderated by Dr Hope Rugo, including the following topics: Therapeutic strategies for patients with localized triple-negative breast cancer (TNBC) (0:00) Current and future role of PARP inhibitors in metastatic TNBC (28:28) Optimal integration of immune checkpoint inhibitors into the management of TNBC (52:52) Other novel treatment options and investigational strategies for TNBC (1:17:52) CME information and select publications

The podcast Road to a Cure team meets up with renowned hematologist oncologist, Dr. Hope Rugo of USCF's Carol Franc Buck Breast Care Center. Dr. Rugo is also co-director of UCSF's breast cancer clinical trials program. She is the principal investigator for several clinical trials of potential new therapies. She is also an investigator with the Bay Area's SPORE (Specialized Programs of Research Excellence) on breast cancer. Producer and Co-host, Victoria Goldberg, and Co-host Dr. Ellen Landsberger, take some time to unpack Dr. Rugo's view of what a "cure" looks like for metastatic cancers, the exciting leadership shown with dosing, and a very clear review of the latest treatments and upcoming clinical trials that could help those with both triple-negative and hormone-positive breast cancer. The Road to a Cure series continues each Monday covering interviews with leading oncologists around the country on the concept of a cure for Metastatic Breast Cancer until the San Antonio Breast Cancer Symposium in December.  Join us!  More info available on our website www.ourmbclife.org Got something to Share? Feedback?Email:  ourmbclife@sharecancersupport.org Send us a voice recording via email or through speakpipe on our website.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter @ourmbclife

Dr. Hope Rugo is professor of medicine in the division of hematology and oncology at the University of California San Francisco Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center, where she is also the director of breast oncology and clinical trials education. Dr. Rugo is also a member of the Breastcancer.org Professional Advisory Board. She is a principal investigator of a number of clinical trials looking at combining new targeted and immunotherapy medicines with standard treatments for both early-stage and advanced-stage breast cancer and has published hundreds of peer-reviewed papers. At the European Society for Medical Oncology Congress 2021, Dr. Rugo presented final results from the KEYNOTE-355 trial, which was looking to see if Keytruda (chemical name: pembrolizumab) and chemotherapy were better than chemotherapy alone as a first treatment for metastatic PD-L1-positive, triple-negative breast cancer. Earlier results found that adding Keytruda to chemotherapy improved progression-free survival — how long people lived before the cancer grew — for this type of breast cancer. These new results show that adding Keytruda improves overall survival — how long people live whether the breast cancer grows or not. Listen to the podcast to hear Dr. Rugo explain: what the KEYNOTE-355 aimed to do whether Keytruda offers benefits for PD-L1-negative disease why it's important for a medicine to improve overall survival as well as progression-free survival the differences in PD-L1 tests and what they mean for the effectiveness of breast cancer checkpoint inhibitor medicines Running time: 25:03

Dr. Hope Rugo, professor of medicine and director of Breast Oncology and Clinical Trials Education at the University of California, San Francisco Helen Diller Comprehensive Cancer Center, highlights key studies in breast cancer featured at the 2021 ASCO Annual Meeting.   Transcript: ASCO Daily News: Welcome to the ASCO Daily News podcast. I'm Geraldine Carroll, a reporter for the ASCO Daily News. My guest today is Dr. Hope Rugo. She is a professor of medicine and the director of Breast Oncology and Clinical Trials Education at the Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center at the University of California, San Francisco. Dr. Rugo joins me to discuss key advances in the breast cancer field featured at the 2021 ASCO Annual Meeting. Dr. Rugo has received research support for clinical trials through the University of California from Pfizer, Merck, Novartis, Lilly, Roche, and other organizations. Her full disclosures are available on the transcript of this episode at asco.org/podcasts. Dr. Rugo, it's great to have you on the podcast today. Dr. Hope Rugo: Oh, it's great to be here. ASCO Daily News: There were many interesting studies in breast cancer featured at the Annual Meeting. Thank you for being here to highlight some of them. Let's start with the OlympiA trial. This is LBA1. This remarkable study found that adjuvant olaparib extends disease-free survival in BRCA-mutated early stage HER2-negative breast cancer. What can you tell us about this trial? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, this is really such an amazing study, in terms of the results and its practice-changing impact. The study actually kind of interestingly was published in the New England Journal [of Medicine] 2 days before it was presented. And even though we had all seen the data, it was really such a, I think, moving presentation in terms of really changing the face of treatment for women and men with BRCA1 and BRCA2 associated breast cancer. Of course, olaparib and talazoparib are both PARP inhibitors that are approved to treat metastatic breast cancer associated with BRCA1 and BRCA2 mutations. And in those randomized trials, they showed improvement in response and progression-free survival, but not clear differences in overall survival. So, of course, when we have an impact in the metastatic setting, the next step is to move into early-stage breast cancer. But that's quite a challenge given the fact that you have to test and find the mutation, which is challenging in some parts of the world. And then you have to decide which group of patients need more than standard therapy. So the OlympiA trial randomly assigned patients who had pathogenic BRCA1 or BRCA2 mutations and HER2-negative, either hormone receptor-positive or triple negative breast cancer, to receive a year of olaparib or a placebo. And the patient eligibility was further defined. If you had triple negative breast cancer, you could have had any residual disease after neoadjuvant therapy, or you had to have a tumor greater than two centimeters or a positive node. If you have hormone receptor-positive disease keeping in mind the benefit of adjuvant endocrine therapy. If you didn't have a pathologic complete response to neoadjuvant therapy, you had to have a few other high-risk features using the CPS plus EG score. And if you received adjuvant therapy, you had to have four or more positive nodes, so stage III disease. All patients had to have received at least six cycles of chemotherapy, radiation as indicated, and of course, hormone therapy was given for hormone receptor-positive disease. There were over 1,800 patients randomly assigned, which was pretty, I think, impressive given the fact that everybody had to be tested. And the whole idea behind the trial is that you would enroll a group of patients who still had a high residual risk of recurrence, even though you got standard and reasonable adjuvant or neoadjuvant therapy. It's important to keep in mind when you think about the results of this trial is that having a BRCA mutation, and in particular BRCA1, increases sensitivity to chemotherapy. So the pathologic complete response rates, for example, in the neoadjuvant setting for triple negative breast cancer with the BRCA1 gene mutation, are higher than in patients who don't have a germline mutation. And so you're really looking at a group of patients who have high-risk disease because they didn't have a pathologic complete response if it was the neoadjuvant setting. Now, of the patient population, a little over 70% had BRCA1 mutations. The rest had BRCA2 mutations. And for the triple negative group, that represented a large portion of the population, about 80%. Again, the rest, a little under 20%, had hormone receptor-positive disease. As you would expect, more than 50%, about 60%, were premenopausal. And about 50% received neoadjuvant therapy. There's always a question about whether or not treatment with prior platinum-based therapy, which is also effective when you have DNA repair deficiency, such as in the germline BRCA mutations, whether or not that would affect sensitivity. A little more than a quarter of the patients had received a platinum chemotherapy agents. And the invasive disease-free survival, the primary endpoint of this trial, was really remarkable. There was an 8.8% improvement in a 3-year invasive disease-free survival rate in patients taking olaparib versus placebo, a very big p-value, and a hazard ratio 0.58. This is really dramatic. The curves separated early, and they remained separated. So that it was the IDFS was 77% for patients on placebo and about 86% in patients who were receiving olaparib, just really very impressive. And one of the things you want to find out about is are you changing the rate of distant recurrence. And indeed, not only were there less distant recurrences, but if you look at distant excluding the brain, that's where you really saw the biggest difference. There was a small difference--hard to know if it really is significant--1.5% less brain recurrence is a big issue for patients, particularly with triple negative disease. It was a little less contralateral invasive disease, but it wasn't anything significant. So really, what you were preventing was the kind of recurrence we don't want to see, which is distant recurrence. And then if you looked at the distant disease-free survival, the absolute improvement for metastatic disease was 7.1%. Again, the curve separated early and stayed separated over time. Now, overall survival, of course, is the golden endpoint that you want to look at. There were numerically less deaths in the olaparib arm, 59 versus 86 in the placebo arm. Most of these deaths were due to breast cancer. And the hazard ratio is 0.68. Although the p-value was 0.024, that didn't meet the statistical plan, which was a p less than 0.01 in terms of how the statistics can be balanced in this trial. But the overall difference was 3.7%. And of course, there were subgroup analyses done, which showed that everybody benefited. It was impossible to see a difference. And again, only a small number of patients relatively receive platinum, so it's hard to know whether or not that changed the response. In terms of the side effects--you always want to think about side effects--it was exactly what you would have expected from what we [expect] in the metastatic setting. Not a lot of grade III or greater toxicities. Mainly anemia was the most common at 9%, and 5% neutropenia, a little bit increase of grade III fatigue, but only 2%. The rest of the toxicities were all grade I and II. And of note, olaparib does cause nausea, 57% of patients versus 23% reported nausea with olaparib versus placebo. But normally, you can manage this nausea and the anemia by actually dose reducing and first holding and then dose reducing. One of the big questions, of course, with PARP inhibitors is if you're inhibiting repair of DNA, are you causing leukemia--new primary cancers? And it was very encouraging. Again, it's 3 years, so we need to be followed a little bit longer, maybe 5, but it was 0.2% or 0.3%. There was no increase in myelodysplasia or myeloleukemias with the use of the PARP inhibitor, which is really important. And the global quality of life scores were identical. So even with these side effects, they could be managed and didn't impact global quality of life. And then in terms of the paper, the additional information the paper gave is that most of the people who required a transfusion received only one transfusion of red blood cells. So I think with the caveat that there are some additional side effects, they are generally able to be managed well. Quality of life is maintained. And there's a huge early difference in the most important endpoints that we look for in these trials--invasive disease-free survival and most importantly, distant disease-free survival. So definitely history in the making. ASCO Daily News: Excellent. Thank you for sharing these fantastic results from the OlympiA trial. The ECOG-ACRIN Research Group presented EA1131, a study of platinum-based chemotherapy or capecitabine in patients with residual triple negative basal-like breast cancer following neoadjuvant chemotherapy (Abstract 605). This interim analysis really highlighted the need for better therapies for this patient population. What are your thoughts on this trial? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, this, I think, is an important trial. Ingrid Mayer from Vanderbilt designed the trial with ECOG and actually presented the data. There will be a lot more data coming from this study because they collected tumor tissue and are doing a lot of different analyses, which might help us understand the benefits of different treatments in different subgroups of patients with triple negative breast cancer. Now, this trial really focused on patients who have the highest risk disease after neoadjuvant therapy, clinical stage II or III triple negative breast cancer diagnosis. They received the standard neoadjuvant chemotherapy. And they had to have tumors that were greater than one centimeter in the breast at the time of surgery or any positive lymph nodes. So this is actually a group of patients who we already know have a high-risk of distant recurrence. They did do an analysis of the tissue using a PAM50 assay to understand which tumors were basal or non-basal like. And patients were randomly assigned to receive capecitabine by the CREATE-X trial, which showed an improvement in overall survival when capecitabine was given to patients with residual triple negative breast cancer after neoadjuvant chemotherapy in Japan and Korea, versus carboplatin or cisplatin by treating physician discretion (DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa1612645). The patients received four cycles every 3 weeks of carbo or cisplatin. Now, one thing that's important to keep in mind is in Japan where the CREATE-X trial was designed in Korea where it also participated, the capecitabine dose was the original U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)-approved dose, where it was a little bit higher, 1,200 milligrams per meter squared twice a day, 2 weeks on, 1 week off. In the U.S., patients don't tolerate this very well. And there is a different metabolism in Asian patients, where they can tolerate a higher dose of 5FU and capecitabine with not as much toxicity due to pharmacogenomics. The patients in the ECOG-ACRIN trial received capecitabine at 1,000 milligrams per meter squared twice daily with the same schedule, which is really all that's tolerated. So the objective of this trial was to see whether or not you could do better or the same if you received a platinum versus capecitabine with the idea that DNA damaging agents work very well in basal-like triple negative breast cancer. So the patients were enrolled in this trial. 415 patients were randomly assigned. And then the data safety monitoring group who were following the results at the interim analysis ended up closing the trial because they found that based on the statistics so far that it was unlikely that the platinum arm would either be better or worse than the capecitabine arm. And they saw more toxicity in the platinum arm. So the trial was closed. And that's the data that was presented. So there was a total of 160 patients who received capecitabine, [and] 148 [patients] who received platinum. Most of the patients had basal-like disease. The age, it was about 52. It's all what you would have expected to see in this patient population. So I don't think we have any concerns about the patient population. The 3-year invasive disease-free survival in patients with basal-like triple negative breast cancer, the primary endpoint of the trial, was identical between the two arms. But actually, discouragingly, it wasn't great. So IDFS for capecitabine was 49% and platinum 42%. So this was actually very disappointing data. And I think it just highlights how we really need to provide better treatment for our patients who don't achieve pathologic complete responses to the best neoadjuvant therapy. It is true that the ECOG-ACRIN trial didn't require that patients receive anthracyclines, but 85% did. So I think that we feel really comfortable that they got good chemotherapy. They looked in the non-basal-like sub-type. And in the non-basal-like sub-type, which are cancers that are more likely to be responsive to capecitabine in the metastatic setting, actually, the outcome, although small numbers, looked better with capecitabine than with getting the platinum-type therapy. And if you looked at non-basal versus basal, regardless of therapy, the patients who had non-basal-like disease did much better than the patients who had basal-like disease, something that we would have guessed, but hasn't been shown before. So I think it was really important, [and] really helps us to identify the patients who need the most intervention. But even the basal group, the IDFS, the non-basal group, it was 55.5%. So better than basal at 46%, but still you got 45% of patients with invasive disease-free survival event over a 3-year medium follow-up. Overall survival at 3 years, also, was disappointing at about 66% for capecitabine and 58% for platinum. So I think that, really, this trial just identified, I think, in a very confirming way how we need to make progress in the treatment of these patients who have residual disease after neoadjuvant chemotherapy. In terms of toxicity, the platinum-based therapy clearly was more toxic. Most of the toxicity that was seen was grade I and II, as you would expect, but there was more grade III toxicity even with the platinum-type therapy. Again, as you would expect. You get hand-foot syndrome with capecitabine and not with platinum. But there was more of the standard toxicities that you would expect with the platinum or bone marrow suppression, primarily some thrombocytopenia, et cetera. So when they looked overall at the trial population, I mentioned that most had basal sub-type by PAM50. It was 80%. So it is a group of patients where I think even going into neoadjuvant therapy about 80% have basal-like disease. So I think it makes us very interested in the results that we expect to see in the very near future from the KEYNOTE 522 trial, where we've seen an improvement in pathologic complete response, particularly in patients with node positive disease with the addition of pembrolizumab, to standard taxane platinum and anthracycline-based neoadjuvant chemotherapy (DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa1910549).  But a very recent press release noted that they have reached their event-free survival endpoint. And that pembrolizumab improves event-free survival. And the importance of this data, which, of course, has not yet been shared, so we have to see what it looks like and what the differences are, is that they had shown earlier at the FDA's ODAC meeting in February of this year that possibly patients who don't achieve a PCR, who received pembrolizumab before and after surgery, had a better outcome than patients who did not receive pembrolizumab and received placebo. So how we incorporate capecitabine into the post-neoadjuvant treatment or other novel agents will very much be a subject of the next few years as we sort this out. But if the pembrolizumab data is indeed exciting--and we'll talk more about the durvalumab data in just a moment--then I think the question would be, what chemotherapy do you give? And based on this trial, there is absolutely no indication for platinum postoperatively in patients with residual disease after neoadjuvant therapy. Capecitabine should be given. But clearly, we need better options for therapy. And this is also being studied with some of the new antibody drug conjugates, like sacituzumab govitecan to see whether or not we can improve outcome in these patients. ASCO Daily News: Right. Well, let's look at Abstract 506. This is the phase II GeparNuevo study. The data presented by the German Breast Group showed that neoadjuvant durvalumab improves long-term outcomes for patients with triple negative breast cancer. What is your takeaway from this study? Dr. Hope Rugo: You know, this was really interesting, and I think unexpected results based on their original presentation. This was a phase II neoadjuvant trial in patients with triple negative breast cancer. And the data by the GBG and Sibylle Loibl, who runs the GBG, had already presented the data from the primary endpoint of this smaller neoadjuvant trial, which was pathologic complete response. And what they did in this trial was they treated patients with a nab-paclitaxel followed by epirubicin and cyclophosphamide. And the patients were randomly assigned to receive the checkpoint inhibitor durvalumab versus placebo. There were 174 patients stratified by a low, medium, or high TILs. And their main endpoint, as I mentioned, was PCR. So this is a secondary endpoint of invasive disease-free survival. A group of patients received 2 weeks of durvalumab as sort of a lead-in first. And they've looked at that group separately. But it's hard to know because it's such a small trial what that means. And nobody is using a lead-in right at the moment. So their primary endpoint, as I mentioned, has been published already in Annals of Oncology in 2019 (DOI: 10.1093/annonc/mdz158). Although numerically there was a higher PCR rate in the durvalumab treated arm, this was not statistically significant. The p-value is in no way significant. And they looked at, in a forest plot, they showed that the patients who had the window seemed to have a higher PCR, but it was hard to justify exactly why that was the case in this group of patients. Now, it's important to keep in mind that the data that we have from KEYNOTE 522, the neoadjuvant trial with pembrolizumab, and IMpassion 31, the trial with the atezolizumab, showed the benefit, particularly in patients with node-positive disease. In this trial, about a third of the patients had stage zero or I breast cancer. So 61 out of the total of 174 patients did not have positive nodes. So we thought the PCR difference really wasn't seen because they had a low-risk population. But now, they're presenting their secondary endpoint of invasive disease-free survival in this group of patients. And what they saw, actually, at a median follow-up of about 44 months, they saw a 12 IDFS events in the durvalumab arm and 22 in the placebo arm. And actually, there were twice as many distant recurrences in the patients treated with placebo versus durvalumab. So 13 versus six events for distant recurrence. So I think that's actually a really important endpoint. And if you looked at the invasive disease-free survival at 3 years, it was 77% for placebo and almost 86%. So almost a 9% difference in favoring the patients who received durvalumab. Pretty dramatic, you know? A hazard ratio of 0.48. And they did have a p-value of 0.0398. So that was quite interesting. And they looked at distant disease-free survival. Numbers are small here, but I think it's a really important endpoint, and overall survival. Overall survival is early to see, but they could see--this is a long follow-up, but it's a small study rather than early--and they showed that overall survival difference was 83.5% in the placebo arm and 95.2% in the durvalumab arm. Again, secondary endpoints with a hazard ratio is 0.24 and, again, a p-value of 0.1. Distant disease-free survival, such an important endpoint, was a huge difference 78.4% versus 91.7%. Again, hazard ratio of 0.31. So pretty dramatic. And when you looked at subgroups of patients, and they looked at PD-L1 positive versus negative. Almost all of the patients had PD-L1 positive disease, so 138 versus 20 that were PD-L1 negative. So it's kind of hard to interpret any of that. And that trial was stratified by stromal TILs anyway. They did show that patients who had a PCR had a better outcome than patients who did not have a PCR. But among the patients who had a PCR, the patients who had durvalumab did better, again, with almost a 10% difference, favoring durvalumab versus placebo. Now, this is a phase II randomized trial, so it's small. And so this is really hypothesis generating. But given the fact that KEYNOTE 522 and IMpassion 31 (NCT03197935) gave the checkpoint inhibitor for a year, and in this situation patients received durvalumab only in the neoadjuvant setting, it suggests that they saw this impact in patients who had a PCR that was greater in patients receiving durvalumab placebo. So it suggests that even though the PCR improvement was not significant, that just the treatment with a checkpoint inhibitor changes long-term outcome. And we know that there's more toxicity by giving longer course checkpoint inhibitor therapy, so we expect that we might see approval of pembrolizumab based on the KEYNOTE 522 trial. And it will bring up the question of whether or not you need a whole year of treatment to improve outcome. And whether or not simply treatment preoperatively might be sufficient, particularly in the patient group who achieves a PCR. It will be, I think, very, very important to be able to evaluate this in order to reduce the toxicity, both the physical toxicity, as well as financial toxicity from use of checkpoint inhibitors in patients with triple negative breast cancer. Also, we know that a third of these patients had stage I disease. And I think we really need to look at the larger trials quite carefully to understand whether or not all patients need checkpoint inhibitors who have triple negative disease. Or whether or not we could more correctly focus on the patients who have higher risk disease, node-positive disease who've been shown to have less tumor infiltrating lymphocytes than patients who have less burdensome disease at diagnosis. ASCO Daily News: Right. So what about the subset analysis in Abstract 1011 that looked at outcomes in patients who are age 65 and older in the phase III ASCENT study of sacituzumab in metastatic triple negative breast cancer? Can you tell us about ASCENT and the toxicities associated with this antibody drug conjugate in this older patient population? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, ASCENT, of course, is a practice-changing trial as well. It led to the final formal approval of sacituzumab govitecan for patients with metastatic triple negative breast cancer in the second line or greater earlier this year after accelerated approval was granted earlier in 2020. This antibody drug conjugate is given 2 weeks on, 1 week off. And the primary toxicity is neutropenia, and then to a lesser degree diarrhea. But overall, the drug is quite well-tolerated. In the overall parent ASCENT trial, as the listeners know, showed an improvement in progression-free and overall survival at the first analysis. Very impressive data with sacituzumab in these heavily pretreated triple negative breast cancer population, compared to treatment of physician choice with standard chemotherapy options, where about 50% of the patients received eribulin, which had already been shown to be better in terms of overall survival compared to other chemotherapy in the subset of patients treated in the past with eribulin who had triple negative disease. So at ASCO this year, Kevin Kalinsky presented on behalf of our authorship group a subset analysis looking at patients who were age 65 and older to better understand whether there was more toxicity and as much benefit in this group of patients. So important when we're looking at novel therapies. So overall, there were 44 patients treated with sacituzumab and 46 with treatment of physician choice who were age 65 or older. Most of the patients had received two to three lines of therapy. And about 40% had received greater than three lines of therapy. The median prior anticancer regimen was pretty similar to the overall group. Most of the patients had initially been diagnosed with triple negative disease, but really, interestingly, about a third of the patients had ER-positive or something else disease initially and were triple negative on biopsy in the metastatic setting. So an interesting subgroup of patients that were also looked at separately and appeared to benefit to the same degree as the triple negative patients. So we looked at progression-free survival in this group of patients looking at patients under age 65 and age 65 and older. A hazard ratio was even greater in the age 65 or older for--it's hard. These are subset comparisons, but the hazard ratio is 0.22 going from 2.4 months with standard therapy to 7.1 months with sacituzumab. The hazard ratio in the younger group was 0.46. But still a big difference in progression-free survival. And then in terms of overall survival in the age 65 and older group, it went from 8.2 to 15.3 months with a hazard ratio of 0.37. And so also really quite dramatic. And overall response was also significantly increased with, in fact, the only responses seen in the age 65 or older group seen in the sacituzumab group. There were no complete or partial responses in the treatment of physician choice group. Of course, really important to look at safety in our older patients because we know that generally there is more toxicity in that group of patients. But actually looking at grade III or greater toxicity, keeping in mind it was 49 [patients] in the older group versus 209 patients in the younger group, there was no difference in grade III or greater toxicities. There were more dose reductions. So 35% reduced their dose versus 19% older versus younger. But there was no difference in adverse events that led to discontinuation between the younger and older group. So that was really encouraging. We see this in almost all trials that older patients have more dose reductions and that was seen here as well. And we also looked at this very small subset of patients who are age 75 or older versus age 65 or older. And the rates of adverse events were similar, albeit smaller number of patients. There was, if you looked at specific treatment-related adverse events that led to dose reduction, it was a neutropenia, fatigue, diarrhea, febrile neutropenia in a small number, 6% versus zero in the treatment of physician choice and nausea. So it's helpful to know what those toxicities are when you're thinking about treating these patients in clinical practice. And in a patient who might be a little less strong, a little older, more comorbidities, so slightly more frail, I would consider starting potentially at a 3/4 of the dose and then going up if they tolerate it well, versus starting at the full dose and getting a lot of toxicity. But this was really encouraging data that showed that you can give the drug to patients who are older and even elderly at age 75 or greater. So that was good to see. And then Lisa Carey presented additional data looking at patients who were treated in the second line or greater because the formal approval by the FDA is in second or greater line. But most of the data looked at patients who were treated in the third or greater line. So you were supposed to have at least two chemotherapies for advanced disease, but you could have had one in the early stage setting if your progression occurred within 12 months. So there were 33 and 32 patients in the sacituzumab and treatment of physician arm, respectively, who had a recurrence within 12 months of neo or adjuvant chemotherapy. They got one line of chemotherapy in the metastatic setting. And then they were randomly assigned on the ASCENT trial. And as you would expect, tiny numbers, right? 33 and 32 patients. But you get a lot of events in this patient population. The PFS was much greater in patients getting sacituzumab than treatment of physician choice. Hazard ratio of 0.41. And also, if you looked at overall survival, it was double. The hazard ratio is 0.51, even in the second line setting. I think it's really interesting to look to see what the toxicity is relative to the lines of therapy. But because the numbers are so small, it's really hard to look at this now. We'll see more data on toxicity when we see data in the first line, as well as the post-neoadjuvant setting in ongoing trials. And I think that will help us a lot to understand what I think we see in the current clinical trials and in practice, which is that patients who are treated in this second line setting have less hematologic toxicity as well as GI toxicity and need less growth factor intervention, et cetera. And I expect that we'll see that in the post-neoadjuvant setting as well. These numbers are too small to really look at any differences in toxicity. But all of this data I think was incredibly encouraging for us in terms of the use of sacituzumab in patients with metastatic triple negative disease, as well as the expansion to the first line and to post-neoadjuvant setting. ASCO Daily News: Excellent. Investigators of the phase III MINDACT trial, that's Abstract 500, evaluated the survival of patients with an ultra low risk 70 gene signature. How will MINDACT inform clinical practice? And do you think this study might guide more appropriate choices of chemotherapy in women with node-negative or one to three node-positive disease? Dr. Hope Rugo: Well, how MINDACT will inform clinical practice is a very big question. And it already has informed clinical practice identifying patients who are better candidates for chemotherapy and endocrine therapy versus endocrine therapy alone who have stage I and II hormone receptor-positive early stage breast cancer based on their primary outcome results. This particular analysis was something different. So we think about using this 70 gene score and the recurrence score from the TAILORx trial (DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa1804710) and RxPONDER to try and identify which patients need more therapy versus less therapy. Now, we also know that these scores have some prognostic impact. Clinically, we mainly have used them to decide who should get chemotherapy in addition to endocrine therapy. This trial looked at a different way to use a gene expression scoring system. It's really to identify which patients need less. Given the fact that your middle of the line therapy is endocrine therapy, which patients do we know who will do very, very well with any endocrine therapy and don't need extended duration endocrine therapy? That's really the question here. So they looked at the patients who were in the MINDACT trial and used data published by my colleague, Laura Esserman who looked at a cohort of patients retrospectively and found that patients who had an ultra low score in MINDACT. And that's a score greater than 0.355 where plus 1 is the lowest end of low risk, and minus 1 is the highest end of high-risk, so greater than 0.355. She identified a group of patients who did well, regardless of whether they received tamoxifen or not apparently in this retrospective long-term outcome where there was 15-year follow-up. So they use that data to go into the MINDACT population and to try and understand which patients benefit. And the MINDACT is a much higher risk group of patients. So if you looked at that original trial that Laura Esserman published, these patients had screen detected cancers. And in fact, the 70 gene signature low and ultra low-risk tumors are, as you would expect, over-represented in screen detected cancers. So you've got this excellent survival regardless of treatment. So how did they apply to MINDACT? So in MINDACT, patients were randomly assigned, of course, who had clinical low, genomic high, or clinical high genomic low to receive chemotherapy or not. In this situation, you're really looking at the patients who have genomic ultra low disease. So most of those patients would not be getting chemotherapy because they would already have ultra low disease. So what they found actually when they looked at the overall population of MINDACT, 6,700 or so patients, they found 15% of patients or 1,000 patients fell into this ultra low category. And if then you looked at the patients who were high-risk, it was 36%. And patients who fell into the big low-risk group, it was about 49%, so about half of the population of patients. So they looked at the different metastasis-free interval rates in patients who had genomic low and ultra low-risk disease, regardless of the treatment the patients receive. They all receive endocrine therapy, remember? So they actually found that in patients who were ultra low versus low-risk, that the hazard ratio is 0.65, showing that patients who had ultra low-risk--remember, this was 1,000 patients at 8 years--there was only 36 events. So they had a 97% 8-year distant metastasis-free interval, compared to 94.5% for low-risk and 89.2 in high-risk disease. They looked at breast cancer-specific survival rates as well. And for ultra low-risk in 1,000 patients, there were exactly eight events. 99.6% 8-year breast cancer-specific survival. So really, quite remarkable. So clinical high-risk tumors tend to have larger size, higher grade, be node-positive. We already know that. For the 1,000 genomic ultra low-risk patients, about almost 70% were greater than 50 years. 80% were node negative. 81% had tumors that were T1, so up to two centimeters. And most of them, except for 4%, were grade I and II. 97% were hormone receptor-positive HER2-negative. Only 14% of patients who had ultra low-risk disease received chemotherapy in MINDACT. And most of the rest received endocrine therapy. Some actually didn't receive endocrine therapy. 16% had no adjuvant systemic treatment at all. So if you looked at the genomic ultra low-risk patients and divided them into clinical low-risk and clinical high-risk, there was really no difference in the events overall, a little bit less 8-year distant metastases-free survival, but not much of a difference. So really, a quite remarkable outcome. Now, what you want to know, of course, then is, does it make a difference if you get endocrine therapy at all? And they looked at the patients who had chemotherapy versus no chemotherapy. And as you would expect, it made no difference. Again, it was a tiny number of patients. But if you looked at endocrine therapy versus no endocrine therapy, it was hard to tell. Because, again, no adjuvant systemic therapy was only 157 patients. There were four events. And for the patients, 685 patients who got endocrine therapy, there were 23 events. So the 8-year metastasis-free interval was identical, but there just aren't enough patients in that no adjuvant systemic therapy group to really understand. So what we know is ultra low-risk defines a group of patients who have excellent outcomes. Does it tell us that they don't need adjuvant systemic therapy? No. Eight years really isn't enough time, unfortunately, in is group because 50% of recurrences occur after five years and out to 20 plus years. We have to keep in mind the Early Breast Cancer Trials Group data showing how many recurrences occurred after five years of endocrine therapy. But in this group of patients who have ultra low-risk disease, they clearly do not benefit from chemotherapy. And I think that's regardless of their clinical risk. And it's likely that 5 years of adjuvant endocrine therapy is absolutely all those patients would ever need. If you have a small cancer that's ultra low-risk, could you get by with less than 5 years of endocrine therapy in a patient with a lot of toxicity? Potentially. And I think that's a really important bit of information to take back into clinical practice when you're talking to patients about the duration of endocrine therapy. But a stage I tumor or stage II with ultra low-risk disease, in general, I would treat for 5 years. I think it's important to keep in mind that premenopausal women, even with ultra low-risk stage II disease, have an ongoing risk of recurrence. And I still think that those patients should be treated with a varying function suppression and aromatase inhibitor if tolerated and tamoxifen otherwise because our very young patients tend to have higher risk of recurrence over time. And it's very hard to separate them out in these studies. Interestingly, there are a few young women who have ultra low-risk disease. So I think this really helps us understand yet another impact of genomic tests, which is who needs less therapy, not just who needs more. ASCO Daily News: Great. That's good to hear. Well, finally, the theme of the Annual Meeting was equity. And in Abstract 1092, you and your colleagues at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) looked at decreased enrollment of patients with advanced lobular breast cancer compared to ductal breast cancer in interventional clinical trials. Can you tell us about this study? Dr. Hope Rugo: Yes, this was a really interesting evaluation. My colleague surgeon Rita Mukhtar at UCSF actually led this evaluation with a very good student who's working with us on some of our research trials. And the idea was that we had observed anecdotally, as have others, that patients with invasive lobular cancer tend to be less likely to meet criteria for clinical trials. So they don't have measurable disease as much. We tend to see sclerotic bone lesions, diffuse infiltration without measurable disease. And it can be much, much more difficult to meet the criteria for clinical trials. So actually, what my colleagues did in this trial is look at whether or not patients with lobular breast cancer are underrepresented in clinical trials. And so they looked at the proportion of interventional stage IV clinical trials that used RECIST in clinicaltrials.gov. And then actually looked at the patients who have RECIST measurable disease who have lobular cancer. And it's really interesting. I mean, we just have a lot less RECIST measurable disease. And in the UCSF cancer registry, patients who were enrolled in clinical trials, if you looked at invasive lobular cancer were markedly decreased if you compare it to patients with other sub-types of breast cancer. So we think that that's probably due to the requirement for measurable disease. And that what we should do in patients who have metastatic lobular cancer is develop trials that are specifically for lobular cancer that focus on the unique biology. And there's a lot of work going on now looking at that biology. And allow patients to enroll based on their disease control rates rather than response. So that we don't require RECIST measurable disease since that's hard to come by in invasive lobular cancer. So I think it's a really important area. It's about 15% of invasive breast cancers. We see a lot of lobular cancer in the metastatic setting. And I think it's unfortunate not to be able to enroll these patients in clinical trials. There is a lot of interest in the cooperative groups in the United States in Europe and in Asia, of course, in trying to do trials that are focused on addressing the needs of patients with lobular cancer, both in the early and late-stage setting. ASCO Daily News: Excellent. Thank you, Dr. Rugo. It's been great to have you on the podcast today. Thanks so much for sharing your valuable insight with us on the ASCO Daily News podcast. Dr. Hope Rugo: It was really a pleasure to participate and thank you for putting together these podcasts. ASCO Daily News: And thank you to our listeners for your time today. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us, wherever you get your podcasts.     Disclosures: Dr. Hope Rugo Honoraria: Puma Biotechnology, Mylan and Samsung Research Funding (Institution): Pfizer, Merck, Novartis, Lilly, Roche, Odonate, Daiichi, Seattle Genetics, Macrogenics, Sermonix, Boehringer Ingelheim, Polyphor, Astra Zeneca and Immunomedics. Travel, Accommodations, Expenses: Pfizer, Novartis, Mylan, AstraZeneca, Merck Disclaimer: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement.

CME credits: 0.25 Valid until: 29-03-2022 Claim your CME credit at https://reachmd.com/programs/cme/evolving-strategies-management-her2-positive-early-stage-breast-cancer/12412/ Although outcomes have improved for women with HER2-positive early-stage breast cancer, patients who do not have a pathologic complete response after neoadjuvant therapy are at an increased risk for recurrence and need further improvements in therapy options. In this activity, Drs. Charles Geyer and Hope Rugo discuss how the management of HER2-positive early-stage breast cancer has evolved, the continued quest to reduce the burden of therapy on patients—and how subcutaneous approaches are achieving this—and other challenges in the treatment continuum.

Featuring interviews with Drs Sanjiv S Agarwala, Gary H Lyman and Hope S Rugo. | For more information, visit: http://www.researchtopractice.com/Biosimilars19/Video   Interview with Hope Rugo, MD: Overview of biosimilar agents: 0m0s Regulatory pathway for the approval of biosimilars: 2m48s Valid short-term endpoints in the clinical development of biosimilars: 6m23s Extrapolating the use of biosimilars; potential combination of biosimilars with other agents: 8m42s Design of the Phase III HERITAGE study evaluating the trastuzumab biosimilar MYL-1401O versus trastuzumab for HER2-positive metastatic breast cancer: 11m1s Efficacy and safety of trastuzumab biosimilars: 13m43s Biosimilars currently approved for cancer in the United States: 16m26s Clinical implications of the HERITAGE trial for patients with HER2-positive metastatic breast cancer: 18m33s Activity and use of filgrastim biosimilars in clinical practice: 19m48s Emerging data with rituximab biosimilars: 21m59s Common myths among oncologists regarding biosimilars: 22m59s Availability of biosimilar agents in the United States and ongoing monitoring for safety: 24m31s

This month's episode is devoted to breast cancer awareness month. We talk to second-year medical student April Liang about her research project on breast mammography data and her goal to help improve breast cancer screening. We also interview Dr. Hope Rugo, a UCSF medical oncology and hematologist, who directs the UCSF Breast Oncology Clinical Trials program. Dr. Rugo gives perspectives on the latest advances in breast cancer research and patient care at UCSF. Music: Sneaker Chase by Podington Bear. Licensed under CC BY-NC 3.0.