Podcasts about lauren so

This week's guest's journey began with a passion for education and children. Lauren So brings a fresh perspective to entrepreneurship in this week's episode. Growing up with parents who owned private schools, Lauren was inspired to pursue a career working with children, particularly those with special needs. After three years of teaching, she took her mother's advice and dove into the world of behavior analysis, becoming a Board Certified Behavior Analyst (BCBA). It was in this field that Lauren saw an overwhelming demand, leading her to start her own business from the ground up.With just $5,000 in her business account (money she claims to never had to use), Lauren faced the challenges of entrepreneurship head-on. From navigating insurance billing and credentialing to figuring out marketing all on her own (a fault she admits in the episode), she built her business one step at a time. Her marketing strategy? A simple Canva account and a slow start with only three calls. But with persistence, she grew her business, eventually hiring employees—a major milestone that brought new responsibilities and challenges like managing turnover and different work styles.Lauren also shares her journey of balancing motherhood and being a boss. As a mom of three and an entrepreneur, she talks candidly about the need for organization and calmness to keep things running smoothly, both at home and in the business. Letting go of control and trusting her team became key to her success, allowing her to focus on the bigger picture while her employees handled day-to-day tasks.In this episode, we also talk about the bigger challenges Lauren faces in her field, from the gatekeeping of information and the often misunderstood public perception of behavior analysis. She dives into the importance of sharing knowledge within the industry and advocating for better representation of behavioral disabilities in the media.If you're looking for tips on how to balance motherhood with entrepreneurship or how to grow a business from the ground up, Lauren shares her key advice: become an expert, understand the weight of being a boss, and start building your dream while you're young enough to chase it.Thanks for listening to another episode of Young Boss with your host Isabelle Guarino. Be sure to like, share and follow on Instagram and TikTok.And remember, youth is your power.Subscribe to Young Boss with Isabelle Guarino wherever you get your podcasts, and be sure to like, share and follow on Instagram and TikTok.And remember, youth is your power.

Lauren joins us today from Australia sharing her two Cesarean stories and her surprise unassisted HBA2C story! Lauren's first birth was a crash Cesarean under general anesthesia at 40+1 due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones. Her second birth was a TOLAC going into spontaneous labor at 40+3 under the midwifery model of care. She labored naturally, had an artificial rupture of membranes at 6 centimeters, baby was posterior, and didn't descend. She pushed for an hour then had a spinal given to help baby manually rotate. Lauren's birth ended in a CBAC which she later learned included a special scar along with the diagnosis of CPD (Cephalopelvic Disproportion). Two years later, Lauren was vigorously planning for a VBA2C. She had her birth team picked out and was ready to go to the hospital for when baby would come at what she thought would be 40 weeks again or later. At 38 weeks and 2 days, her husband went on a work trip 3 hours away and her mom, who was planning on caring for her boys during the birth, was an hour away on a day trip. Lauren's labor began in the evening while she was alone with her two boys and ramped up extremely fast. With the help of her doula and paramedics supervising, Lauren labored and gave birth to her baby on the bathroom floor in just 2 hours from start to finish!Needed WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. You guys, we have another story coming from Australia for you today. We just recently had an Australian mama and I love our Australian episodes because I cannot get enough of your accent. I love listening to you guys. We're so excited. We have our friend, Lauren, and we have our little baby. Lauren: Yes. Little Wren's awake and joining us. Meagan: It's 11:00 PM there so she stayed up extra late to record with us today. We are going to get into her stories. You guys, she had two C-sections. Lauren: Yes, two Cesareans. Meagan: And then a surprise. I feel like you really had very unique things. You had an OB and you were under general– Lauren: For my first. Meagan: Then you were with midwifery care and then a surprise which you are going to be sharing here in a second. You guys, I'm really excited to hear her stories. We do have a Review of the Week and it's called, “So Grateful I Found This Podcast” by shinefortheworldtosee. It says, “After having an emergency C-section last year, I struggled with all of these displaced emotions. Here I was so grateful for my healthy baby but I found myself feeling hurt like I had something taken from me that I struggled finding a safe place to share and it felt as if no one around me had ever experienced the same thing I did. This podcast and group of women are my safe place. I am expecting baby number two and am so, so grateful for the empowerment that those stories told here have given me. I am so excited to try for a VBAC this time and the more I learn here, the more confident I become.“Thank you from the bottom of my heart for making this podcast.” You are so welcome. I love this podcast so much. I love all of the stories. I love the empowerment, the encouragement, the education, and also, I'm a big person who relates. I love relating. I think it brings validation to my heart when I can relate to someone because like this listener said, she felt alone. She didn't have anybody else in her space and this space is so amazing because even if it's a different outcome or there are different parts of the story, there are usually little blurbs of each story that you can truly relate to. Thank you so much for your review, shinefortheworldtosee. As always, if you haven't yet, please leave us a review. We are always so grateful for them. Meagan: Okay, cute Lauren. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for staying up way late because by the time we are done recording this, it's going to be midnight. Oh my goodness. Oh my gosh, thank you. Lauren: That's okay. I got the time and said, “Oh, it is late,” but I was so excited anyway. I just can't wait. With that review, I was thinking the exact same thing. I remember when I found the podcast, I can't even remember. I was trying to think how it popped up. I didn't even know VBAC was a thing after my first birth. I just remember listening to it and so much of it resonated. I could relate to those little bits. It was like I was meant to hear it. I just had that strong feeling when I started listening to the podcast. I'd be crying in the car and it was just so powerful. It definitely was life-changing when I found the podcast. Huge. I feel like there are so many situations where you've never met them ever in your life. Sometimes we don't even know where they are at and it feels like they are literally sitting on the phone talking to you. Lauren: Speaking to you, yes. Meagan: Speaking to you. Yes. Lauren: Yes, exactly. I felt it. I was just like, This is what I'm supposed to be listening to at this exact time because it was speaking directly to me. It is so special what you have created. I think there is a podcast now in Australia for VBAC but there was never anything before and I would just eat them up. I'd be waiting every week for the podcast because I would be–Meagan: Is it Ashley's? Lauren: There's that one. I think I've listened to her podcast with you actually. There's the “Australian VBAC Stories” as well. They are only maybe up to 8 or 10 episodes so they are quite fresh. Meagan: Yay. Lauren: I just love all VBAC stories. I could listen to them all day. Meagan: Absolutely. Well, let's get going on sharing yours. Lauren: Yes. Okay, so my first birth was– I got pregnant in 2017. We've got three little ones now. Nate was our first baby. We had private health insurance. A few of our friends had gone private. Some of them had gone public. Some had Cesareans. Some had natural births. I hadn't really had a plan of what I wanted to do. I always knew I wanted to have children but I hadn't really given much thought to the pregnancy or the way of birth or anything like that. We just signed up with a private OB. I think from our GP, you get a referral then you start seeing them from about 16-20 weeks. You get all the regular scans. Everything was really straightforward. We were really fortunate with our pregnancy. We found out we were having a boy. We found out in– I think I've written it down– January. I had morning sickness for the first 3 months then I had a bit of Vitamin D deficiency so I had to take supplements throughout the pregnancy for that. I had a growth scan around 36 weeks. Now, I obviously know after doing a lot of research that there's no real need for it and it's just something to give them ammunition to schedule the big baby and the scan actually came back that he was measuring fine. I was like, “Yep, that's good.” Being a first-time mum, I was so excited to see him on the ultrasound anyway. Meagan: That's what I was going to say. I feel like they get you especially for first-time moms but really in general because it's so fun to see our baby. Yeah. Lauren: Of course I want to see him. Definitely. Meagan: We get in there and they're like, “We'll do this plus you'll get to see your baby.” You're like, “Well, I haven't seen my baby since 20 weeks, so okay. I'll do that.” Lauren: And you don't know any different so you're just like, “Yep, that seems fine.” I think we even did a gender reveal and I think my husband's cousin mentioned something about her friend doing Hypnobirthing. I remember I just wasn't in the right place to hear that at the time. I'm like, I wish I would have listened but it just wasn't meant for me at that time. I took maternity leave. I had 4 weeks off because I thought, Whoa, from 36 weeks the baby could really come any time. Looking back, I know 40 weeks is not even your due date. It could be any time, anywhere. Meagan: Estimated. Estimated. Lauren: A guess date I've heard a lot of people refer to it. And first-time moms tend to go over the 40 weeks so it's not uncommon. I remember it being such a mind game toward the end when I was getting closer to the due date. I think my OB offered me a stretch and sweep around 38-39 weeks and I was like, “Yep. I'm ready. I'm over it. Anything that we can do to get the baby.” I didn't really think of it as being an intervention. I didn't really know what the word intervention was at that time. I do remember her saying to me afterward something like, “Oh, I hope we're still friends after this,” after she did it. Meagan: Oh. Lauren: I was like, “Oh, that's a funny thing to say.” Then yeah. I think it was around 39 weeks and there was nothing. It didn't get anything moving. I was just automatically booked in for an induction at 40 + 1 for postdates which is not even near postdates but I was just like, “Yep, great.” I think like you said before, being a first-time mom, I was just ready to see my baby and over it so I was like, “Yep. That's great and exciting.” We got booked in. When I went back through my records, I saw on my induction paperwork that it even said, “Small mummy and postdates,” because I was small apparently. Meagan: Nuh-uh. Lauren: Yeah. I'm quite short. But they were already preempting that I probably wouldn't be able to anyway. We went in. I think we got admitted at 7:00 in the evening. We got ready to do a CTG monitoring and just an initial assessment. When we got in, they said I was having uterine activity but I couldn't feel anything. It was showing on the monitor I was having some Braxton Hicks or some contractions. They were concerned that the baby wasn't really reacting very well to that at the time so they called the OB who just happened to continue with the induction. They did a vaginal assessment and I think I wasn't obviously at anything. They did another CTG for the fetal heart rate and it had gone down, I think, to 90 BPM and had recovered within 2 minutes with a change of position and it had come back to what they were happy with. About an hour after that, they did an intravenous drip in and they did another exam. I was 1 centimeter and my cervix was posterior so obviously, I wasn't anywhere near ready. I think maybe half an hour after that, there was another decel and it said, with pointless uterine activity. It wasn't doing anything, but there was something. Then the OB was asked to come in for that. Obviously, the baby wasn't doing very well when I wasn't really even in active labor and they were a bit concerned with that thinking he wouldn't be able to tolerate full-blown labor at that point. So then it was 9:00– so two hours after we got there– when the OB was in the room. They did an ultrasound and were able to determine that I had a calcified placenta and a pocket full of fluid. There was discussion around maybe booking in for a Cesarean just because of the nonreassuring CTG they were having. I awfully now remember feeling a sense of relief and being like, “Oh, good. I don't have to go through labor and all of that,” because I think probably admitting to myself, I was a little bit scared about the whole labor because I hadn't done any preparation or any planning. The only thing we had done was the antenatal appointment– what's the word? The antenatal class at the hospital where they go through it. After we left, my husband was like, “That all sounds awful.” It was just really interventions and how to get the baby out. He was like, “None of those options sound good.” When they said “Cesarean”, I was like, “Oh, perfect. That will be great.” I think at 9:30, we got prepared to go to theater. My husband got in a gown. My mum had actually just arrived into the hospital so it was all exciting. We were going to meet the baby. This was at 9:30. We didn't know it at the time, but there were a few alarms going on outside our room and there were a few people milling around. I don't know. I don't think that was related to us. We got wheeled out on the bed to go to theater and then all of a sudden, Josh disappears and they were rushing us to the theater room. I was like, “What's happening?” I'll never forget. I remember– I don't know who was pushing me, but he said to me, “I don't think you understand. Your baby needs to come out right now.” We just thought we were going in for a normal Cesarean. We didn't realize it was changed to a general anesthetic so I started getting upset. I said, “Can I just say goodbye to my husband?” They rushed him back. I quickly kissed him and said goodbye. He gave them his phone and we went into theater. I was sobbing at this point because I just didn't know what was happening. There was somebody putting a catheter. They were putting the general anesthetic in then I think my OB popped her head in. At least, I knew some sense of calm. She said, “It's me. I'm here. We're just going to get the baby out.” I remember I could see them prepping my stomach under the mirror and the anesthetist was lovely. He rubbed my cheek and said, “It's going to be okay. We're just going to get the baby.” That's it. That's all I remember and then I was gone. After that, I think at the time, I read back on the notes that it was 9:45. It got upgraded to an emergency call. I went under at 9:50 and he was born at 9:52 so it was very quick. He came out. He cried. He was fine. His APGARS were 9 which are healthy. Meagan: That's great, yeah. Lauren: So fine, yeah. I think he was 3,000 grams which is 6.8 pounds and the surgery was complete at 10:05 so it was super quick in and out. Meagan: Wow. Lauren: He went to Josh straightaway. Poor Josh was obviously just waiting and didn't know what was happening. They brought Nate out and he said, “Well, that's great, but where's Lauren? Where is she?” So then I didn't make it into recovery until 20 minutes later which I know is still really fortunate compared to what some people experience. It was really quick. When I came to, I was still sobbing I think it must have been because I went under crying. When I came out, I was in tears and I could just see Josh sitting on the bed next to me holding Nate. Instantly, I knew he was okay and he was fine. I was able to hold him and breastfeed him so I think from then on, everything was really quite lucky. We got in straightaway. I think we were in recovery maybe another 20 minutes and then we got taken to the ward. At the time, I don't think I really registered how full-on it was. I just had a healthy baby. I was okay. Postpartum was a beautiful experience. We were in the hospital, I think, for 5 days together because we were private. Josh got to stay with us. It was like a second honeymoon. We were in there. It was like a hotel where we were getting food. That side of it, I think, was just beautiful and I didn't really feel like I missed anything birth-wise at that point. That was it I guess with that. Then in 2019, we started thinking about having another baby. I hadn't really thought too much about a VBAC or what I would do. I guess I was like most people where you just are once a Cesarean, always a Cesarean and there wasn't another option. I really wish I could remember how I came across it because I can't remember at all, but I must have found your podcast and I remember listening to it even before I was pregnant. I was just like, I have to try and do this because I never got to experience any labor at all with Nate and then with this pregnancy, I really felt like I missed that and I wanted to have something. I wanted to go into labor and at least try and be given the chance. We were really fortunate and fell pregnant straightaway. That was in 2019 and I knew I wasn't going to be doing private obstetrician this time so I did a bit of research before I was even pregnant actually with a public hospital that had a midwifery program attached to it. You attended all of your appointments at a clinic and they had a VBAC-specific clinic then you birthed at the hospital. Meagan: That's awesome. Lauren: Yeah, but you have to apply straightaway. As soon as I got the positive, I filled out the application form and applied directly with them. I got accepted and I was like, If I'm going to go for this, this is going to give me my best chance to go and have a VBAC. I think, I can't remember how far along I was but I still went. The hospital we were going to is a half hour away but all the appointments with the midwives were only 10 minutes away. That was really good. I knew the drive was a half hour but it was going to be okay. I also had signed up to do the VBAC course with you guys. I got my handout for that and I ate it up. I love that. I went through it and was doing it at night time. After listening to the podcast, I also knew I wanted to do Hypnobirthing so I did Hypnobirthing around 7 or 8 months which was when COVID started to come into the picture. It wasn't around in Australia but it was happening. The course was supposed to be a group environment with a few classes. We ended up doing an online course which was actually really lovely because when Nate was asleep, Josh and I would sit in bed. We would do all of the Hypnobirthing courses, listen to the tracks, watch the videos, and then we had one in-house visit where we went through all of the positions and acupressure and things like that that I wanted for pain management during birth. That was really good then I think from 37 weeks, I started doing all of the things. I was doing raspberry leaf tea, eating Medjool dates, and sitting on the birth ball. In my head, I felt like I was really getting prepared in the best way possible. Now I know in my third birth, I thought I was but I wasn't as prepared as I probably could have been. I was still doing more than what I did for my first birth. I had one chiropractic appointment at 38 weeks to get everything balanced and aligned. I never had chiro before so that was all new to me. Then at 39 weeks, I had an acupuncture appointment. I had never done acupuncture before and I loved that. I felt that was really nice. I think it was just my hands and my ankles and then they just put the music on and I felt so relaxed. I really loved that. That was good. I remember when I went in, I said, “I hope I haven't left it at too late.” They said, “You're pretty much a first-time mom. You've never had labor. Your body has never been through that.” He did some statistics and he said to me that from 40-41 weeks was the average time. I remember with Nate, when I got to 40 weeks, I thought the baby was going to come any day so with this pregnancy, I pushed it out to 41 weeks. In my head, that was when my due date was. I don't know what I would have done if I got to 41 and I hadn't gone into labor but I had that I was going to 41 weeks. I had an online hospital tour. We couldn't go in to see it because of COVID then I had an online appointment at 39 weeks. When you have midwifery care, you still have to be signed off by an obstetrician in the hospital to give you the okay and run through all of the stats and everything. I was prepared to be up against an uphill battle when I went to that appointment. They were pretty supportive. They just talked about postdates, the risk of rupture, and things like that. I said I was comfortable going to 41 weeks and reassessing then so I think that was around 39-40 weeks and then we were rebooked in for 41 weeks if I hadn't gone in. So then I think I was 40– oh, sorry. I'm jumping around a bit. My due date was a week after Nate's second birthday so in my head, I just wanted to get to Nate's birthday and then the baby could come after. We had a little birthday celebration for Nate a few days before I went into labor. We were happy that was done then at 40+3, in the afternoon at about 4:00 I felt a few little tinges but obviously, I didn't know what anything was so I was thinking this might be it or this could be prodromal labor or Braxton Hicks. I just wasn't sure. I was like, well, I know from the podcast that I don't pay attention to it. I'm just going to go about my normal routine with Nate. I'll get dinner, do bathtime, all of those things, and try not to focus on it too much thinking it might either go away–Meagan: Or fizzle out. Lauren: Yeah. In my head, I'm like, It can take days. By 4:00 it started, then by 7:00, I was getting Nate ready for bed. He was in a cot at this stage. I remember taking a big breath in and slowly exhaling like in Hypnobirthing. I noticed I was having to do that as I put him to bed. I remember being so excited like, This is happening. My body was doing it naturally. I really wanted to try to not get induced if I could avoid it. I remember I really had to focus on my breathing. I was leaning on the bed with my knees on the floor leaning on my bed and just breathing and really trying to relax and listening to my Hypnobirthing tracks. The plan was my mum was going to come over and watch Nate if I went into labor at nighttime. I think it was around 10:00 and I think someone said from one of the podcasts as well to gauge the distance you need to go with how well you are managing and how well the drive is going to take if you're going to be okay. I called my mum to come. I was like, “I feel like I'm not struggling but it is ramping up a little bit.” I was like, “I don't know how much longer I can be at home and sitting in the car for a half hour to go.” She arrived. We called the midwives and we let them know we were going into hospital. My mum came and you could just see she was like, “Oh gosh.” She had me naturally. She had three naturals and then her fourth was a Cesarean. She couldn't understand why I wasn't trying for a Cesarean because I already had one and why would I not just have another one?Meagan: Why would you not just do that, yeah? Lauren: She came and I remember walking out of my room to the front and I had to stop a few times on the way and stand in the garage and just take a few breaths between each contraction. I went to go sit in the car. In my head, I thought I was going to be on my knees leaning over the chair. I just couldn't even fit down in that area so I was up against the back of the chair. Obviously, it was not comfortable but I was just thinking if anybody was driving on the freeway and looking, it would have been such a funny sight. I still had my podcast in and I was really focusing on breathing. Josh was just driving. He had never been to any of the appointments with me because of COVID. He hadn't been to the hospital so we were almost there and his navigation was doing funny things. I had to in the middle of labor try to direct him on how to get to the hospital. We pulled up and I just automatically went to where I would park for all of my appointments which wasn't in the front of the hospital. I went to get out of the car and I was like, “I can't walk to the front of the hospital,” so I had to get back in. We drove right to the front and then we went in and we had to get assessed for the COVID triage which was a real pain. We had to wait and do that before we could walk in and get triaged. I think we arrived at the hospital around 11:00. We got admitted at 11:00 at night and then we were triaged maybe at 11:30. By that stage, my contractions were every 3 minutes and lasting about 40-50 seconds. I had a vaginal exam and I was 4 centimeters. I remember just being so excited because I was already progressing. I was hoping I would be further along, but I was like, “4 centimeters is good.” I was 90% effaced and I was thin and soft so I was like, “Oh, that's good.” I think by midnight we had gone to the labor and delivery suite. They dimmed the lights per my request. I asked to go in the shower because I really wanted to be in the shower. They told me I had to wait until my midwife had come because she wasn't at the hospital. Meagan: They checked you and got everything assessed. Lauren: Yeah, so I had to wait. That was fine. I was at the stage. I was leaning on the bed swaying. Josh was doing a bit of acupressure on my back and I was really enjoying it at that time. My midwife got there at about 1:00. I was still coping well through it. By 1:30, I don't think it was my midwife. I think it was one of the hospital midwives who came in and assessed me again. I was at 6 centimeters and I was -2. There were a little bit of complicated decels on the CTG and momentarily in my head, I was like, Oh no, not again. It evened out and it was okay so I think it just must have been a bad reading because of the bulky monitors that they had to put on. They didn't have the mobile ones. It was the bands that you had to be attached to and monitoring. They suggested to artificially break my waters and I hadn't felt too much about that in my prep. I think I was just focused on going into labor naturally as opposed to actually being in labor. They asked to break my waters. I had gas for that and I remember getting on the bed to do that which I think was one of my first bad things because then I never got off the bed once I got on there to do that. I couldn't manage to get back off. I wish I would have known or asked to be helped to get taken off but I was just not in the position to get off the bed. I was stuck there. Yeah. I didn't remember this but when I read in my notes, they offered me a Cesarean at that point and I was like, “No. I'm trying for a VBAC,” so they said, “That's okay.” We tried repositioning some fluids and then the CTG was back to where they were happy with it. Then at about a half hour later, I was on my side. I felt a bit of pressure and my sound changed a little bit. I remember my midwife saying to me, “Oh Lauren, that sounded a bit pushy.” It felt a bit pushy so I was like, “Oh, that was really exciting.” That was at 2:00 and at 2:30 in the morning, they assessed me and I was fully dilated. I was so excited. They were seeing some complicated decels on the monitor. I think they said– do you know what the normal heart rate is? I've written them all down but they were saying it was 140 without a contraction and then they'd ask the registrar to come in the room so the registrar came in to see what the CTG was doing for progress and pushing. I had a bit of a funny moment. When I was doing the pushing, I was on gas. I must have taken a big inhale of the gas and my vision went dark. I couldn't see anything. I remember getting a bit scared at that point. I didn't know what was happening. I could hear everything and I could feel everything but I just couldn't see. I think it was just from inhaling the gas and the contraction and something. Meagan: It was just too much all at once. Lauren: Yeah. It was really scary but it was a one-off and it was fine after that. Then I think at 2:40, the ped was paged to come in and attend delivery so I think at this stage they still thought things were happening and we were going to have a baby vaginally. 5 minutes later, they gave me an in-dwelling catheter to drain my bladder in case that was creating a blockage for the baby to come down. Meagan: Which is actually something that does happen. Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: If baby is not coming down, sometimes it's urine blocking. Lauren: Yeah. They said, “Only 50mL came out so it wasn't a lot,” but I was like, well that was good. At least they tried that. They said the registrar did an IV and said that it was ROP so right occiput posterior so not in a great position and at my spine. They said there was some descent with pushing but not enough. I think that's when they decided to call to be transferred to theater. The plan was to have a spinal and try for some instrumental assistance to get the baby out. I think at that point, it was quite quick. It was quite intense and I was relieved. I didn't think I had it in me to push anymore so I agreed to go up to theater and have forceps or manual rotation to help assist the baby out. We got up to theater and I think they called them at 2:40. We got to theater at 3:20 so it wasn't that long of a wait but it felt like an eternity when my body was contracting and pushing and they were telling me not to push and just to pant through the contractions. I just remember it felt like a really long time. I will never forget that we got to theater. I had to sit up on the edge of the bed and the person trying to put my spinal in asked me to scoot up the bed. I was sitting there mid-contraction and I just remember looking at my midwife and I was like, “You'll just have to wait until after this contraction and then I can just move up for the spinal.” I got the spinal and they discussed the options of an episiotomy and using forceps to aid the baby. At that stage, I said, “Yep, whatever we need to do,” I would really like to try to get him out. They tried a manual rotation while pushing and his heart rate dropped to 93. They assessed the position and then maybe decided to do the forceps. They must have said that then changed to apply a vacuum because then they did a vacuum and they went to do the first pull and his heart rate dropped to 67. They did another pull and his heart was up at 133. Then a couple of minutes later, they decided to do forceps. They attempted to do the forceps. They applied them and his heart rate dropped to 86 then they reapplied to get a better position around his head and his heart rate again dropped to 75. The baby, even though he had changed position and was now facing– I think his head was facing my back which was OA and he was at a -1 station, they obviously thought he was just not in a great enough position to aid him out so they decided to convert to a Cesarean. I remember at that point, I didn't feel like it was a failure or I hadn't done it because they had given me every opportunity to try and I still got to experience so much more than I had with my first birth. Even though I still didn't end up with a vaginal birth, I got 95% of the way and I was still so happy and proud of my body for getting to that point. I was just like, if they couldn't even get him out with forceps, there was no way I was going to be able to do it. I was quite happy and content with the decision. They did say he had been down there quite a bit so he might come out not great. Because he was so far down, they did have to– and they did write the word “extract” him which I thought was quite an interesting term to use but the extraction was breech because he was so far low. He came out. His APGARs were 8/9. He was 7.4 pounds and a similar size in length to my first. I think we were there maybe for an hour or two in recovery. He fed straightaway and then we returned to the ward. On my notes, it said, “Repeat C-section due to failed TOLAC.” I was just like, I had that word “failed” but I understand that's the terminology they used. It says that about an hour later, we had a debrief. They came back into the room and went through all of the happenings and made sure I was okay with it all. They actually discussed any future deliveries and the recommendation for an elective Cesarean. I don't even remember that conversation. Meagan: Oh really? Lauren: Yeah. I don't even remember so when I went back through my notes, I was like, “Oh, that's interesting.” Then in the notes, it also says, “CPD?” I can't pronounce that word either. Cephalic Pelvic Dysproportion. They said that and then they also said there was a small extension to the upper midline of my Cesarean incision. I had my normal scar and then it obviously had come farther up and it said it was sutured separately on the uterus. I'm reading it in real-time now but I didn't realize that until my recent birth when I went back through my notes with my midwife. I was like, Well, that's really interesting. They obviously told me but I must have not registered that at the time. Then obviously we were in hospital due to COVID so Josh wasn't allowed to stay with us. An hour after his birth, he had to leave and being a Cesarean, I was in hospital for a few days and my other son, Nate, wasn't able to come in to visit us. I really missed out on us being a family of four for those first few days. Yeah. We got home. I think I was in there for two nights then we got discharged. They met us at the hospital and that drive home was really special. That was the first time they met was in the car driving home. We always knew we wanted a third but it was a lot, the transition to two, and we probably weren't ready straightaway. We gave it three years then when Call was two, we decided we would try again for baby number three. We fell pregnant really quickly with the first two so we just assumed that would happen this time and we were trying for a few months and it just didn't really happen. We were trying for 6 months and gave ourselves a bit of a breather and just let it take its natural course because we took the pressure off and then the both of us were saying before the boys were born a week apart in May and we found out we were pregnant with our third in between the middle of their birthdays. It was really special. May has always been a special month but yes, we had Nate's birthday. I found out we were pregnant then a few days later we had Call's birthday. So it was really special timing. I knew I wanted to try again. It would be our last baby. If I was going to have a natural birth, it would be this pregnancy. I went to go through the same model of care that I was with Call, but they had changed their practice. The midwife group that I went to no longer existed. It was the MGP so Midwifery Group Practice. They were based in the hospital this time so all of my appointments were in the hospital and they were VBAC-supportive. I think we went in and then you still have to have your OB appointments around 36 weeks and we didn't find out our gender with this one. We had the two boys and for our third, we weren't going to find out what we were having. I had the same sort of morning sickness with my third. I was a lot sicker this time. I knew this time I was going to have a student-midwife and a doula. I got a visit. Obviously, The VBAC Community group on Facebook, I posted in there and I also posted in a Western Australia VBAC support group there about recommendations for student-midwives and doulas. Then I spoke to a few of them and then obviously whoever I felt that connection with, I went with them. The doula– I did research doulas with Call, but I don't know why I didn't do it that time. I think that would have made a difference. I was like, this is the time I'm going to do it and I'm going to have a doula. We did that. I did a bit of a refresher for the Hypnobirthing as well. I met my doula at about 25 weeks and we sat. We met at a park and we just chatted for hours. She had a VBAC as well herself. Meagan: Oh, that's awesome. Lauren: Her second was a home birth and a surprise as well. She had a boy and then she had a surprise for her girl. So much was similar with our situations. I just felt like she was meant to be our doula. Yeah. So that was at 25 weeks and I think at 6 months, we had a suggestion of a fetal growth scan again which was the same and I was like, they were already preempting that but I was more prepared even if I went to that scan and it was a big baby that I would be okay with that. Then at 28 weeks, I did the normal blood test and the fasting for gestational diabetes. I didn't have it with the two boys and I had it this time around. That was a bit of a surprise. I didn't really know much about gestational diabetes. You have to do your three blood sugars after your fasting and the third one had to be under 8.5 and I was 8.5 so I was just on the cusp. I remember my midwife saying to me, “Who knows? If you had waited another 15 minutes before your blood test, you probably would have been fine.” Meagan: Yeah, it could have been lower. Lauren: I started snowballing with all of the things. I thought it was going to mean I was going to be induced for bigger babies and I didn't want to be induced. I had gone to 40 weeks with the boys so I didn't assume I would be having an early labor so I started really worrying about my chances of having a VBAC at that point. I did a lot of research and listened to podcasts with people who had gestational diabetes. I tried to get in a good headspace again. I just took it as a positive to eat healthier and watch what my weight gain and things like that this pregnancy. I had to check my blood sugar four times a day– after fasting in the morning first thing when you wake up, and then every two hours after a meal. I was able to manage it with just my diet which was really good so I didn't have to have insulin. Meagan: Insulin, yeah. That's awesome. Lauren: That was really good and then the diabetes, they were checking with me and I could change to testing every alternate day. Thankfully, I was able to manage it from that side but it just meant there was increased monitoring of the growth of the baby and my weight and things like that.I also had low iron which I never had with my first two pregnancies but this pregnancy was just a real curveball from the start. Yeah. So then at 29 weeks, I went in for my next appointment. I checked diabetes and everything was still fine. My youngest tested positive for COVID so that was a little bit of an interesting one. None of us got it which was really lucky so I didn't know how that would go being pregnant and getting COVID. I had noticed I started to lose a bit of my mucus plug which I've never experienced before and it was quite early but my midwife said, “That's fine. It doesn't mean anything. It can happen. It builds back up again.” But that was a bit different and exciting. Then I think at about 32 weeks was my appointment with my midwife and that was when we went through all of my previous births just as a debrief. Meagan: Op reports.Lauren: Yeah. That was a bit of an eye-opener because I think those things that we highlighted in Call's birth weren't really brought to my attention until this one. You could see as my midwife was reading it that she wasn't really aware of that either in the notes. It just said there was a sign of obstruction, a loss of station between the manual and the vacuum rotation, an inability to place the forceps, and an understanding of why the labor was abandoned and the vaginal birth. Then it says that a VBAC was not recommended. The midwives would still support me if I wanted to try for a VBAC after two and if I wanted an elective that they would support with that. I remember leaving feeling so disheartened. I was only 4 weeks away from my due date. I came home and I remember Josh and I talking it over and I was like, “Is it worth going through all of that over again just to get to that point of pushing and not being able to fit through my pelvis and being through a scary C-section again?” We went through all of our options and Josh was happy to support what I wanted but I was so torn. I didn't know but I kept coming back to a VBAC. I just didn't feel content with a Cesarean. I just said, “I'll never know if I don't try.” I spoke to my doula and I said that I was just frazzled. My head was all over the place. I had a good chat with her over the phone that stuck with me. She said, “Different baby, different birth.” Meagan: Absolutely. Lauren: I just kept saying that to myself. I think I listened to one of The VBAC Link podcasts and they said the same thing. It just was the right information that I needed to listen to at the time and the whole CPD with the pelvis. She said, “You don't even have an official diagnosis.” She said, “That's just somebody's opinion as to why they are saying that the baby didn't descend. He just wasn't in a great position.” She highlighted that they broke my waters at 6 centimeters before he even descended which maybe led to him being even more stuck. All of these things, and then I remember just trying to focus on positive VBAC stories and get my head in the right space so I was listening to lots of podcasts at this point and I was following a lot of Instagram pages about pelvic mobility. I didn't really do a lot of research about that with my first or my second pregnancies about your pelvic inlet, your pelvic outlet, internal and external rotation. This was all news to me and I really, really enjoyed that. It made sense that the pelvis is not rigid. It can move and I just kept visualizing that when I was trying to be positive toward this labor. I was doing a lot of exercises for only a couple of minutes at night before bed. I was doing a lot of window wipers where you lay back and rotate your knees from side to side, deep squats in the shower, I was doing a lot of lunges and just creating a lot of space and room that I felt like I could in my pelvis. I did a lot of visualization. I remember I just kept putting my hands between my legs and imagining feeling my baby's head. I don't know why I did that and it probably might seem a bit strange but I just really felt that and I was imagining going through labor and having that moment. Yeah. Meagan: It doesn't. Lauren: That was really quite powerful at that point to get back on the right track for having a VBAC. There were two other podcasts I was listening to which are Australian-based– The Great Birth Rebellion and that's really, really good, and The Midwife's Cauldron. They just question a lot of things that are expected or standard and not to question. I thought that was really good. One of the ladies who does The Midwife's Cauldron has a book called Reclaiming Childbirth as a Rite of Passage. I didn't get all the way through it but it was another thing like finding your podcast. It just really resonated with me and everything I read, I felt was meant for me. It was really, really powerful. The two Instagram pages that I followed were The Body Ready Method and they have little reels of exercises and things to do to get your body ready. Then I got to 35 weeks. We went through my last appointment and I was happy to go through with the VBAC and that they would support me. They advised of the standard guidelines of having an IV, CTG monitoring, and regular vaginal examinations. At 36 weeks, I had my OB appointment and I had my growth scan. The baby was in the 90th percentile. I thought I was going to have to say, “I know they can be inaccurate.” But the OB wasn't worried about that at all and he said, “Yep. Baby's size is fine.” He discussed the pros and cons. He pulled out graphs and figures and I was like, oh gosh. Here we go. He's going to tell me all of these problems. He was so pro-VBAC and supportive. He was from the UK and he said, “I came to Australia and I didn't realize what the problem with VBAC is.” They are so supportive in the UK with VBAC and the hospital I was going to has a 60% VBAC success rate which I was like, well that's pretty positive. I did my GBS screening and then he rebooked me in for 39 weeks. I'll never forget he said to me, “I'll see you at 39 weeks if you are still pregnant.” In my head, I was like, Of course, I'm still going to be pregnant because I went to 40 weeks with the boys so we will see you at 39 weeks and reassess.You don't have a set obstetrician either so you get whichever one is there. I was really hoping he would be at my next appointment and when I went into labor. At 37 weeks, we went on a little holiday down south. It was a big drive. We came back. I was having regular chiropractic appointments I should say. I had my chiro appointment when I got back. I had been sitting in the car and she mentioned that the baby was sitting asynclitic which is the head tilted. I thought, Oh no. I was so focused on getting the baby in a good position. She said, “It's probably because you were sitting for such a long time. It's no concern.” She realigned me and then gave me some pelvic tilt exercises to get into the right spot. Then on the 14th of January which was around 37, just before 38 weeks, we had a meet-up with my doula again just pre-birth to run through everything. She got to meet Josh and we left feeling really positive and excited and happy with everything. She was on call. I got to 38 weeks. I had an appointment on Thursday with my chiro and then on Friday, I was working from home. I still had another week. I was sitting on the exercise ball pretty much all day doing lots of circles and pelvic tilts. I had maybe one or two twinges and I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Nothing eventuated from that. Nothing through the night so I didn't really read too much into it. The next morning which was the 20th of January which was 38+2, Josh had to go down south for work which was a 3-hour drive away. A lot of people were like, “Oh, that's a bit dangerous.” I said, “Oh no, I'd rather he go now and be back for my due date.” I said that. I said, “I'd rather have you go now and be around for 40 weeks.” He headed off first thing Saturday morning. He did the drive. He did a full day's worth of work. It just was a normal day. At 4:30 in the afternoon, I got two boys in the car. We went to the shops. I had to do a bit of shopping for a birthday the next day. Then at 5:00, I do Click and Collect. I don't know if you have that but you do your grocery shopping. You pull up. They just put it in your boots and then you drive home. Meagan: Yes. We do have that. Grocery pickup is what we call it. Lauren: They came out from COVID and I just haven't stopped doing that. It's so handy with children. That was at 5:00. We did that. We got home. At about 7:00, I'm getting the boys ready for bed. They were in the bath. I was just tidying up a few things. I squatted down to pick a few things up and I had a bit of a leak. I was like, I just felt like I wet myself a little bit, but not a gush. Not anything. I had a pad on so it was just a little bit of water. I called Josh. I said, “I don't know if this is anything, but maybe just have an early night. If things do start to happen, you might have to drive home early in the morning to get back.” This was at 7:00 then at about a quarter past 7:00, I sent a photo to my friends because they were out. I was just at home. I bought a special birthing robe. I just for some reason put it on that night. I was sitting on the couch in my birthing robe. I took a photo and sent it to them completely oblivious of what was about to unfold. I got the boys in their pajamas and brushed their teeth. We were getting ready for bed and it was about just before 8:00 and I had a little bit of a cramp so I was like, Oh. It was really weird because with my previous birth, I didn't notice the contractions or take note of them for a long time. But at 7:55 was my first contraction and then 10 past 8:00 was my next one. I was like, Oh. That's weird. It was 15 minutes later. The next one came 5 minutes later. I was like, That's weird. The next one was 4 minutes. I was like, That's weird. I stopped writing them down. I was like, Obviously, I'm not writing them down properly. I must be doing something wrong because that just can't be right. During that, I must have gone to the toilet and there was a slight tinge of red in the bowl. I remember taking a photo of it being like, I'll just keep it. Meagan: Like some bloody show?Lauren: Yeah, but not a lot. Really faint in the water. I took a photo because I wasn't even sure if it was there. Then at about 8:20, I called Josh again and said, “Maybe start heading back because things might be happening. The contractions don't seem like they are slowing down but we will just see what happens in the next few hours but it's 3 hours so maybe start heading back.” I called my mum at that point as well. She was an hour up north. She never goes up there but she had just gone for a day trip so she was away as well. At that point, the boys were still awake and I couldn't get them. I wasn't capable of getting them into bed and doing all of that. I said, “Just pop on the couch,” and they were watching Bluey which is a TV show they love. They were watching that and I just hopped in the shower. It must have been 8:30 at that time and I called Megan, my doula. The plan was I was going to labor at home as long as possible and she was just going to meet us at the hospital. I called her and I just said, “Josh isn't here. My mum's not here. I'm alone with my boys. I'm going to try and put them to bed and focus and get into my breathing techniques and then I'll check in and touch base with how I'm going.”That was about 8:30 then 10-15 minutes after that, I jumped in the shower and things started to ramp up quite a bit. I was really upset because I was in the shower thinking that would be my mode of pain relief and it just was not. Meagan: Uh-huh or slow it down. Lauren: Yeah, I've heard that as well. If you hop in the shower, it will slow down if it's not the real thing. It did nothing and I was like, Oh no. This is not good. I remember thinking to myself, I just need to press pause. I just need to stop this because it can't be happening right now because I'm literally on my own. This is not how it was supposed to happen. I was in the shower and then I had a little bit of a bloody show in the shower and then at that point, I called my doula again. I was like, “I think you need to come over. I just need a little bit of support just to watch the boys.” In my head, I was still thinking I had hours to go. In my head, I was like, If you could just watch the boys until Josh gets here, then you can head home and we can give you a call when we head into hospital. At that point, I got out of the shower because it wasn't doing anything. The contractions started to feel different. It felt like I was having to bear down a little bit. I was like, Okay. But I still feel like I was oblivious because I just– it was so quick. In my head, it wasn't happening that fast. I remember thinking, When I get to the hospital, I'm not going to be able to do this all night. I'm going to get the epidural because it's too much. I got out of the shower and Megan had given me a TENS machine. I was like, that is in the bedroom. I'll get the TENS machine. I couldn't even make it to my bedroom to get my TENS machine. I was like, oh goodness. I put a nappy on and then I went and I sat down. I think I must have made it to the toilet so then I sat back on the toilet and that was a really comfortable, familiar place that I was sitting and I was sitting down there. That was really nice for the contractions to break through. My boys wouldn't have known what was going on. They kept coming in and checking and asking if I was okay. I said, “Yeah, mummy is fine. I think the baby is coming.” They knew something was going on because I was making some noises. My eldest was a little bit scared but he was okay and then I was sitting on the toilet and I remember I had locked the whole house up. We've got a side gate security door and a front door. I thought, Oh my god. When Megan arrives, she's not going to be able to get in. Nate found the keys for me and he gave them to me. He was so happy with himself that he gave me the keys and I managed through contractions to walk. It was probably 5 minutes to the front door and I only had a nappy on at this point. I was completely naked because I just got out of the shower and had a nappy on. I unlocked both doors. I was in a little side area and I thought, Goodness if anyone walks past and hears me and sees me– thankfully, it was late and nobody saw it but I don't know how I managed to do that. I got back in and I was on the toilet. I think that was around maybe 8:50 at that point when I had moved to the toilet. The light was off in the toilet and the hospital bag I had packed had lots of candles and LED lights to have to set the mood. In the boys' bathroom, I have one candle on which is just for their nightlight if they need to go to the toilet. That was the little nightlight that I had on in the toilet. That was actually quite nice to have a dark room with a little candle on. At this point, I'm sorry. I unlocked the door at about 9:00 and then it was 9:23 that my doula arrived. She came in and my eldest son, Nate, ran into the door and he was just so excited that somebody was there to help mum. He's like, “Mum's there. She's in the toilet.” I remember Megan coming in and she was so calm and she was so relaxed. She looked at me and she said, “Lauren, are you pushing?” I remember looking at her and I was like, “I think I'm pushing.” She just said, “Okay. I'm just going to call the ambulance.” She was on the phone and she was calling. I think in my head at this point, I still hadn't registered it was that sudden. I still just thought I was– Meagan: And this has been maybe 2 hours. Lauren: Yeah. 2 hours. You can push for hours so in my head, I was like, We've still got hours. We're fine. It was intense, but I was just so excited. Things were happening and it was all going. Then I don't know how we got to it but we called my neighbor to come over because my doula was trying to support me but then the boys were there. She said, “I just need somebody else to watch the boys.” My beautiful neighbor came over. We are friendly but not in the middle of birth naked friendly. She comes and the toilet is off the hallway so I remember her walking in and she's like, “Hi.” I was like, “Sorry, Adrienne.” I was pushing and she was walking off the hallway to sit with the boys on the couch. I was about to have a baby. It was so crazy. Yes. I think that was just about 9:30. Megan gave me some water and she was rubbing my back. She put a cold towel on my back and I was still sitting on the toilet at this point and my legs were quite shaky. I just felt a bit sweaty then I instinctively just got up to move to sit on my knees in the toilet and that toilet's not very big. You can put your arms up and hold the walls. I was on there on my knees. I had one leg up and I was rocking, circling my hips. I was doing all of the things and just instinctively. I didn't really notice that I was doing them. Then I think she had towels and she had pillows. She was still on the phone to the ambulance that were coming. I'll never forget. The guy on the phone was just like, “Put her on her back. She needs to be. Can you get her on her back? You need to be able to see.” They were asking her to tell them when I was having contractions. I remember we were looking and each other and I'm like, “He can hear when I'm having a contraction. I'm starting to make the noises.” Megan would just be like, “Now.” He could tell when I was having contractions. Obviously, he had a script to read off but it was so obvious when I was contracting and when I wasn't. The head wasn't there but I could feel bulging. I remember putting my hand down there and I was just so excited and happy. I was just so calm. I don't know how because none of it was planned. It was happening so quickly. I guess there was no time to really process it or even think about it or get scared about it. It was just happening. There were two paramedics that arrived. This was just before 10:00 at this point. I was there. I could feel bulging. There was still no head or anything yet. They came in and they turned the lights on in the toilet and I was like, “Oh no.” It was too bright. They turned it off. They looked at me and said, “Lauren, are you okay? Do you need anything?” I don't even know if I could speak. I just shook my head. In hindsight, we couldn't have gone. It was too late. We couldn't have gone anywhere anyway but they just stood back. They turned the light off and they literally just watched which was so special. They didn't interfere. They didn't try to take over. They just sort of let me go and I don't know how it happened but the doula gave the paramedics my phone and they recorded the birth. Meagan: Oh that's awesome. Lauren: Yeah, which was not planned. I guess it was so special because Josh was still an hour away. Meagan: Yeah, and your mom? Lauren: My mum wasn't there so at least they could see it. I'm so glad that they thought to do that and to record it. They were recording it and I was getting close. I remember in the video, you can hear me say, “I can't do this anymore.” Obviously, I was very, very close and I put my hand down. I was just saying, “Ow, ow, ow, ow,” because I could feel the stretch. I know people call it the ring of fire but I tried not to think of it like that. I tried to just visualize the stretching of everything. Then I could feel the baby's head and then I just remember sobbing because I was so happy. I could feel and I was saying, “Ow, ow, ow, ow,” and then her head– I didn't know it was her at the time, but her head sort of popped out through my contraction. You could just see my relief. I was so happy and she cried. Her head was out and she made two little cries. Meagan: She did? Lauren: I've never heard of that happening before. Meagan: I have never seen that ever.Lauren: Yeah, it was incredible. Even the doula was like, “What in the world?” I knew she was fine at that stage. I heard the little cries then it was maybe a minute before the next contraction then I was like, “She's coming out.” The doula had her hand under. She guided her head to me and then her shoulders and I just pulled her up to me. It was just– yeah. The look on my face. I just could not believe it. I had done it. I think I just kept saying, “Oh my god. Oh my god.” I just held her. I keep saying her but I held the baby. I just could not believe that she had come out just so quickly and so easily. I was so worried in the lead-up that the baby would get stuck or I wouldn't be able to get the baby out and none of that was even in my mind at that point. She just was there. I was holding her and it was the most incredible, special moment. Even now, even when I hold the top of her head, I always remember feeling her head coming out. Yeah. I don't even know if I'm doing it justice because it was just the most incredible feeling. I was holding her. Our neighbor brought the boys down so within the first minute, she's walking down the hallway and she had Nate and Call and they were both in the doorway of the toilet looking at me holding their little baby. My youngest sort of looked in and was like, “No.” He just walked away. It was all a bit much for him. Then my eldest walked straight in. Stuff was everywhere and he was so brave. He walked straight in and was like, “Mummy had the baby. The baby is here.” I said to him, “We don't know what it is. Do you want to have a look and see if it's a boy or a girl?” He looked down and I said, “Is there a vagina or a willy?” He looked down and the whole time he said he thought she was going to be a girl. He goes, “I think it's a girl.” He looked down and I don't know what he saw, but he said it was a boy. I was like, “Is it another boy?” He must have seen something that he thought looked like a willy. Meagan: Maybe an umbilical cord or something. Lauren: Yeah, maybe the cord or swelling but they get quite swollen so he might have thought it looked like little testes so he said, “It's a boy,” and Megan whispered something in his ear and in that split second, I was just like, Oh my gosh. It's not a boy. I'm like, “Is it a girl?” I just couldn't believe it. The fact that she was such a surprise, her birth, and the way she came, and then that she was a girl as well and then we were just sitting there in the toilet for so long and then we were like, “Oh, we'd better call Josh.” Megan was like, “I'll call Josh.” She said, “You need to pull over Josh. Can you pull over?” He was on the highway doing 110 to get back to us. He was like, “Okay.” So we FaceTimed him and I'm just sitting on the floor holding Wren on the toilet saying, “She's here. We had the baby.” He was so happy. He was still an hour away. My mum– I think we just sat in the toilet. My mum arrived 20 minutes after she was born. She just came and sat on the floor of the toilet with me. We just sat in there. She couldn't believe it. Then about maybe 40 minutes after, we walked up and I was able to sit in my own bed and I sat in the bed. They were sort of a bit worried about the placenta and things like that. I hadn't birthed the placenta yet. They asked if I wanted to cut the cord. I said that I wanted to leave it as long as possible until it goes white. We were hoping for Josh to come at that point so then I was sitting down. I stood up for a little bit and I remember my mum was in the bed with me and my doula was there. I said, “Oh, I'm so sorry. I think I need to do a number two.” Then she was like, “No, I think that's your placenta.” Meagan: Probably your placenta sitting in there. Lauren: The placenta came straight out and she caught it in one of my mixing bowls because we didn't have anything prepared. She stayed attached to that for a while. Because they had gestational diabetes, they had to do a heel prick on Wren. Her sugars were fine. Josh was still about an hour away. We didn't even have a capsule for the car so I hadn't picked up the capsule so we got transferred because she came so early. We got transferred to the hospital in the amublance and Josh met us there at 10:30. I should say she was born at 10:09 which was just pretty much 2 hours. Meagan: So 7:40-something to 10:09. Lauren: I remember the midwives when we got to the hospital were like, “Why didn't you know?” I was like, “I just had no idea that it was happening that suddenly.” Now looking back, obviously, the signs were all there but it wasn't happening that quickly in my head. We got to the hospital and Josh got to meet us at the entrance and it was so special. I just still could not believe that it had happened and I was on this high. I was just so incredibly happy. We went in and they just didn't know what to do with us. They didn't know to put us in labor and delivery or to take us to the maternity ward. We went to labor and delivery. They did all of the assessments. She was my biggest baby. She was 7.8 pounds so 3.5 kilos compared to the boys so it's quite funny that Call wasn't able to come out but she was able to come out. I think it was just positioning and I was relaxed. I was at home. I didn't have any interventions or anything played a huge part in it. They did an assessment. I think her APGARs were in the hospital but she was 10 and 10. She was perfect. They did assess me for a tear and I remember saying, “Oh, I don't think I teared,” because in my head if I had torn, I thought it would have been a painful feeling. I actually had a 2nd-degree tear which I didn't realize so I had to have some local anesthetic which was probably the most painful part of it all. It was excruciating. I had to have stitches for that and then just a superficial tear at the top. Josh actually went home at that point because we still had a few hours before we could get discharged. He drove 3 hours in the morning, worked the whole day, drove 3 hours, hadn't slept for 24 hours. I said, “You go to your parents. Have a quick sleep.” He came back. They did a few checks on Wren. She had to go to the special care nursery just for some monitoring really quickly because there was a difference on some of her monitoring with her heart rate. They did an echo which came back fine so there was no follow-up. It must have been a funny reading. They were all fine so I think we got discharged at about 9:00 the next morning. She was born at 10:00 at night. We went to the hospital at midnight. We left there at 9:00 in the morning and were back home literally within a few hours with the boys. It was just so surreal and so special compared to the other two birth experiences that I had. One, to be able to get up and walk around and just do things without being conscious of a scar and recovery and things like that and even when I walked in home– because my mum had stayed at home with the two boys, she said, “You don't even look like you just had a baby.” I just felt like I was on top of the world. It was such a different experience. I remember saying to her that obviously I didn't know what it was going to be like but now that I've experienced it, I can't imagine going through life never having experienced that and having birth that way. It was just so– I remember a few of the midwives looked at me as if I had planned to have a home birth and I was like, “Absolutely not. There was no way I would have planned it like that with no support, with nobody here.” Meagan: Yeah. You're like, I would not have planned to do that. Lauren: My boys didn't know anything about natural birth. I was going to the hospital to have a baby and coming back with their baby brother or sister. There was no way that I was– that was a bit funny. I was like, no. It was not planned. It was all very sudden. I remember my doula said to me in the coming days after Wren was born, “How special for Wren to have been born that way and then also for you

In this episode of “The VBAC Link Podcast,” Meagan is joined by Lauren from Alabama. Lauren's first birth was a Cesarean due to breech presentation where she really wasn't given any alternative options. Her second was a VBAC with a head-down baby, and her third was a breech VBAC with a provider who was not only supportive but advocated on her behalf!Though each of her births had twists and turns including PROM, the urge to push before complete, frequent contractions early on, and NICU time, Lauren is a great example of the power that comes from being an active decision maker in birth. She evaluated pros and cons and assumed the risks she was comfortable with. Thank you, Lauren, for your courage and vulnerability in sharing not only your birth stories with us but also your incredible birth video!Lauren's YouTube ChannelCleveland Clinic Breech ArticleThe VBAC Link Blog: ECV ExplainedNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. If you have ever wondered if a breech vaginal birth or a breech VBAC is possible, let me just tell you right now, the answer is yes and our friend Lauren today is going to share her story to confirm that it is 100% possible. Obviously, we do have some breech VBAC stories on the podcast but they are few and far between. I mean, Lauren, when you were going through it, did you hear a lot of breech births in general let alone VBAC? Did you hear a lot of people having those? Lauren: No. I had heard a few on The VBAC Link but that was really it. I did a lot of research. Meagan: Yes and it's so unfortunate. This story is a double VBAC story but also a breech VBAC which we know a lot of people seek the stories for this because as she just said, there is not a lot of support out there when it comes to breech birth in general. We have a client right now who was just told that her baby was breech and they've already said, “We're going to try to flip this baby but if not, it's a C-section.” They didn't even talk about breech vaginal birth being an option and it makes me so sad. I'm really, really excited to get into your episode. You are in Alabama. Is that correct? Lauren: I am. Meagan: Awesome. So any Alabama mamas, listen up especially if you have a breech VBAC but VBAC in general. If someone is willing to support a breech VBAC, I'm going to guess that they are pretty supportive of VBAC in general. We do have a Review of the Week so we will get into that. This is by sarahinalaska. It says, “HBA2C attempt”. It says, “Thank you, thank you. Your podcast came to me at such an amazing time. You ladies are doing something amazing here. I'm planning on (I'm going to) have an HBAC after two C-sections in February. I look forward to listening to your podcast on repeat to fuel my confidence, ability, and knowledge.” Sarahinalaska, this has been just a minute so if you had your VBAC or just in general, if you are still listening, let us know how things went and congratulations. Late congratulations because this was a couple of years ago. Meagan: Okay, everybody. Lauren, thank you again for being here. Lauren: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Yes, so okay. Obviously, every VBAC journey starts with a C-section so if you want to start right there. Lauren: Yeah. So my first son was about 7 years ago. He was born by C-section. He was also breech. Meagan: Oh, interesting. Okay. Lauren: He was breech through the entire pregnancy. We had talked to my doctor about doing the version but at 36 weeks, my water broke. Meagan: Okay. Lauren: So once your water breaks, you can't attempt a version. I went to the hospital and they said that it would have to be a C-section at that point. I really didn't have the knowledge that I do now and basically, it was worded as “I don't have an option” and that's just it. So that's what we did. Meagan: Yeah. It's so common. Even with non-breech, there are so many times when we come into our birth experience and we are left feeling like we don't have an option. Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: It's just so hard to know. Obviously, that's why we created this podcast so you know all of your options. And then talking about flipping a baby and doing an ECV after your water broke, that is something I've only seen one time in 10 years of practicing so most providers will be like, “Nope. I won't even attempt it.” I was actually floored when my client was actually offered that. Obviously, it's a more difficult experience and it can be stressful on the baby as well so there's that to consider. She ended up trying it. He tried it twice and it didn't happen and then they ended up going into the OR. So okay. Baby was breech. Do you know why baby was breech? Did they say anything about your uterus or any abnormalities there? Lauren: No. They said sometimes it just happens. They knew how badly I wanted to have a vaginal birth and they said, “You are an excellent candidate for a VBAC.” So I was like, “Okay, great.” Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: That's when I really took a deep dive into birth in general because the stuff that they were saying just didn't sound right to me. Meagan: They said you were a candidate. So where did your VBAC journey start as you were diving in? How did that begin? Did you do that before pregnancy or after you fell pregnant? Lauren: Before pregnancy. Probably before the time I came home from the hospital with my son, I was already researching. Meagan: Baby was a couple of days old and you're like, “And let's figure this out.” Listen, I get that. That's exactly how I was too with becoming a doula. It was literally two days after I had my C-section. I signed up to become a doula. Okay. You started diving in and what did you find? Lauren: It was very shocking to me how most providers don't practice evidence-based. I found out the difference between evidence-based versus the standard of care. I was shocked about that too. I was just like, How can you do that as a doctor when you've got all this evidence here? But another doctor is practicing this way so it's okay for you to do that. Meagan: Right. It becomes the norm or it has become the norm. Yeah. Okay. So you get pregnant and you know VBAC is possible. Tell us that VBAC story. Lauren: So that was just a wonderful experience but part of my research, I joined ICAN and I wanted the most VBAC-supportive provider out there. I did switch providers and I switched even before I was pregnant. Right when we were trying, I was like, I need to get in with a provider who is supportive. I found a wonderful provider. The pregnancy was great. I did all the things. I sat on the birth ball instead of on the couches. I made sure to take walks every day. I kept up with my chiropractic care. All of that were just tips that I had seen so I did that. She was head down by 20 weeks so I was super excited about that and she waited until 40+3 which was also a big thing for me because with my first son, they took him to the NICU so I did not want the NICU. The NICU was a horrible experience. I was like, Please, please, please hold on until 37 weeks. 40 would be great.She did. She held on until 40. It was funny too. It was like a switch flipped at that point and I was like, okay. Now I want to get her out. I was eating the spicy food and everything to try to get labor started. But 40+3, my water broke with her as well before labor started. I panicked a little bit because I didn't want to be on a clock. Although I felt that I was with a good provider, I still hadn't birthed with her yet and I've heard stories about people having this doctor who tells them everything they want to hear and then they get in the birth room and it's completely different. Meagan: The bait-and-switch, yeah. It's so hard because they talk about how we have to have this proven pelvis to be considered the best candidate or to have full faith in our ability, but at the same time, I feel like sometimes from us at a patient's standpoint, they need to prove to us. They need to prove to us that they are supportive throughout. Lauren: Yes. For sure. So pretty quickly after my water broke, I started pumping and while I was pumping, the contractions started so I felt so much better. I was like, Okay, good. Now we've got contractions going. I had a doula at that point as well because I felt like having a doula was going to be extremely important for a VBAC. I called her and let her know. She came over and she just hung out a little bit. We did a henna on my belly and we just talked and talked through some fears and excitement and stuff like that. Then she said, “Well, I'm going to go get my stuff. Why don't you lay down and take a nap and see if once things pick up, we can go to the hospital?” I said, “That sounds great.” This was my first time experiencing labor because with my son, even though my water broke, I never had contractions. They just went straight to the C-section. I went upstairs and I laid down on my left side. Within a minute, I was just like, Whoa, these feel totally different. This is crazy. Probably within 30 minutes or so, I was having contractions every 2-3 minutes. Meagan: Whoa!Lauren: Yeah. I was just like, This just picked up really fast. I think I was supposed to already go in by now. Meagan: Were they intense as well on top of being close or were they not as intense but just close? Lauren: In hindsight, they were not intense but it was my first time having labor and they were more intense than the beginning contractions. “Okay, they are more intense. They are close together. I've got to go now.” I was panicking. We made it to the hospital. They checked me and I was 2 centimeters. Meagan: Okay. Lauren: I was like, “You've got to be kidding me.” Meagan: Yes. That's the hardest thing because we are so focused on the time. We are told if they are this close together, it's time to come in but we sometimes forget about the other factors of intensity and length and what's the word I'm looking for? I was going to say continuous but they are that pattern always. They are sticking to that pattern. They are consistent. They are consistent, yeah. Okay, so you're 2 centimeters which is great by the way. It's still great. Lauren: Yes. Oh, and I forgot to mention too that another that was like, Okay, I probably am with a good provider, I did call her after my water broke and she said, “What are your plans?” I just said, “I'd like to stay home as long as possible and contractions haven't started yet but I'm going to try to start pumping and get them started.” I said, “I'd like to wait until tomorrow morning to come in if nothing has started.” She was like, “Okay. Sounds like a good plan. Just let me know what you need.” I was like, Wow. She let me go past 24 hours. Meagan: Yeah. I just love that she started out, “What's your plan?” Lauren: Yes. Meagan: Versus, “This is what you have to do now.” Lauren: Yes. Exactly. She is wonderful and you'll see through the story how amazing she is too. But anyway, we get to the hospital and I actually started out with a wonderful nurse. The hospital policy is continuous monitoring. Meagan: Yeah, very common. Lauren: But I did not want that. I was so lucky because the nurse who started, she was about to leave. Her shift was about to end but she let me start on intermittent monitoring so I was able to get up, walk around, get on the birth ball just to help things moving. Shortly after that, she left and the next nurse was not so nice about it. She told me, “It's our policy. Yada yada.” I said, “Look. I've been doing the intermittent. I'm fine with the intermittent. That's what I'm going to stick with.” She said, “You're going to have to sign a form.” I said, “Bring it on.” Meagan: Yeah. Lauren: I signed the form and I was just like, “That's fine. I have no problem signing a form to say this is my choice.” Then we labored in the hospital room for several hours and my doula suggested I got in the shower at one point and that was amazing. It was euphoric. It felt so good to get in the hot shower and I was progressing slightly more than a centimeter an hour which I know is what they look for so things just progressed pretty slowly and then that night at around– oh, well actually once I hit 6 centimeters, my body started pushing. Meagan: Oh, yes. That can happen. Lauren: I was terrified when I found out I was only 6 centimeters because they kept saying, “You need to stop pushing or you're going to the OR.” I was like, “You don't understand. I'm not pushing. My body is doing it.” It was several hours of working with my doula to try to stop my body from pushing. Every time I had a contraction, and they were still going every 2 minutes–Meagan: Did they give you any tips on how to cope with that or how to avoid pushing like horse lips or things like that?Lauren: The thing that worked best for me was opening my mouth and saying, “Ahhhh.” So that helped a lot but I would still say that 50% of the time I could not stop the pushes. I still remember that nurse saying which was not helpful at all, “Are you pushing? That's the quickest way to the OR.” Meagan: Ugh. Not very kind. You're like, “I'm trying not to. Can you see what I'm doing here?”Lauren: Yes. Then my doctor came in around 11:00 that night to check me and she said, “Oh, you're complete.” I just remember being like, “Thank God.” I said, “Does that mean I can push now?” They're like, “Yes.” That was the best thing I had heard because that was all I wanted to do was push. I was already in the bed because they had me on the monitor at that point. I was on my back so they just leaned the bed back. I didn't really want to push on my back but at that point, I was like, “I'm not moving. I'm just going to push how I am.” I pushed. It took about 20 minutes and she just slowly came out. It was– oh, I'm going to get emotional. It was wonderful. My doula was also my birth photographer and she got some pictures. She got a picture of my husband. It's really sweet. I hope he's okay with me telling this but she got a picture of him crying. It was when she was almost out. I asked him about it and he said, “I just knew at that point you were going to do it. I knew how important it was to you.” Sorry. Meagan: I'm sure he had that overwhelming flood of emotions like, “I know this is important and I can see it. She's there. She's going to do this.” Lauren: Yes. It was wonderful too and then I got to hold her on my chest for a while but they weren't too thrilled with her breathing so they never took her out of the room but they did take her over to the table and they were suctioning her and stuff like that. I started feeling a little panicky because with my son, what happened was after my C-section, they showed him to me. I got to kiss him and touch him and all that but then they started leaving the room with him. I was like, “Whoa, where are you going?” They were like, “Oh, we've got to take him to the NICU because he's having trouble breathing,” but nobody told me anything. They just started leaving with him. I was panicking thinking that was going to happen with my daughter. I was like, “Please, please, please just give her to me. All she needs is me. She's going to be fine. Just give her to me.” The nurse was like, “No. She needs suction. We need to do our job,” but my doctor was so wonderful. She came over and said, “What they're doing right now is suctioning her because they are not happy with her oxygen level.” She sat there and she told me, “Okay, now she's at 94.1%. Now she's at 94.2%. Now she's at 94.3%.” Every time that thing went up, she would tell me. She was just so calm and it was like she got me. She understood. Meagan: She understood what you needed in that moment. Lauren: Yes. Yes. Another thing too which I thought was really interesting is that first off, she did ask before she did anything. We got half of my daughter's head out but she got a little stuck so the doctor was like, “You know, we really want to get her out.” She said, “I think the vacuum might help or are you okay with me manually helping you?” I said, “What do you mean by that?” She said, “I could just insert my fingers and tilt her chin. I think that will get her out.” I said, “Yeah. Let's do that one.” So she did. She went in and popped her little chin and then she came out.Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: But it was nice to be asked instead of told what needed to be done. Meagan: Well not even told and just have it done. Lauren: Yeah, just do it. I've heard that a lot and it was crazy because that actually was going to happen with my first son. Before my nurses knew I was breech, they came in and they started. They were about to put medicine in my IV and I said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing?” She's like, “Oh, this is Pitocin. We need to get your contractions started.” I was like, “No, I don't want Pitocin.” She's like, “We need to birth him within 24 hours or he's going to be a C-section.” So it was just crazy the difference in being told what was going to happen and being asked for not only my opinion but my consent. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. That's so important. Women of Strength, if you are listening to this, please, please, please I beg of you to help you know. I don't know how we can let you know even more but you guys have the power to say no and consent is so important. Your consent is so important with anything, even just getting Pitocin drips. If anything is happening to your body, you have the right to say no and you always can question. You can pause and say, “Tell me all of the risks here” or whatever. You don't just have to have it be done to you. You do not have to. Lauren: Yes. Meagan: It's hard to say no in that moment. Lauren: It is. It is. Meagan: It's hard to say no especially when they are coming in and making it sound like something you need. Whether it's something you need or not, you still deserve to have consent. Lauren: Yes, exactly. Then they throw that at you where it's like, “Oh, the baby will be in danger.” You're like, if you're not knowledgable then you'll be like, “Okay, then. I don't want my baby in danger.”Meagan: Exactly. Of course, we don't. Duh. Of course, we do not want our baby in danger but most of the time rarely is our baby in danger if we are not starting Pitocin right away. Yeah. Awesome. So you had this beautiful vaginal birth with support. It was a way different experience with good, true informed consent even into the postpartum period which should keep continuing anytime you are under care with anyone like this no matter in hospital or out of hospital. This kind of consent should continue. Lauren: Yes, for sure. Meagan: Awesome. Awesome. And then baby number three. Cute little baby. I don't know if I'm allowed to say his name so I won't. Lauren: Oh, yeah. You're fine. Ollie, yeah.Meagan: I was going to say I got to see on the recording just before we got started that he was another breechie. Lauren: Yes, he was. I was just like, Oh my goodness. His pregnancy was so similar to my first son. It was a little freaky. I had a lot of anxiety to work through because of that. I was like, This can't happen again. He was breech the entire time and basically stayed in the same position. He moved his little head around and that was about it. This time, I was I guess a little more– I don't know if cocky is the right word but confident that everything would be fine. I was a little more lazy. I didn't do as many walks as I should have. I sat on the couch a little more than the birth ball and things like that. I was like, Oh, he'll be fine. So at about 20 weeks when he was still breech, I was like, Maybe it won't be fine. Maybe I need to get this going. I started trying to do a little more of that stuff. Also, my doula had moved out of state so I was like, Oh no. Meagan: Dang it yeah. Lauren: I know it's so important and having a doula was definitely important for me. I started the search for a new doula which ended up turning out great. I loved both doulas so I was very pleased but I was very nervous. But yeah. I found my doula while I was pregnant and then I just had so much anxiety about my first son's birth that I needed a plan ahead of time basically. I talked to my doctor about it and I went in there just nervous to even bring it up. I said, “So he's still breech. I know that he's got plenty of time to turn but I am nervous because I have a history of this with my first son. He was breech and I had to have a C-section.” I said, “What are your thoughts on a breech vaginal?” She goes, “Well, I don't see why we couldn't.” I was like, “What?”Meagan: You're like, “I wasn't expecting that.” Lauren: She's like, “You've already had a VBAC. You did fine. He can't be sideways. He's got to be to where he could actually come out breech. It's just something that we'll talk about.” She did mention an ECV as well and she was like, “We've got a long way away but I don't have a problem doing a breech VBAC with you.” I immediately just felt so much relief. Meagan: I bet. Lauren: Yes. So we went along the pregnancy like that and then at 37+3 at 5:00 in the morning, my water broke. Meagan: 3 for 3 water breaking, you and I. They say 10% but when you're 3 for 3, you're like, “Hmm.”Lauren: That's what I was thinking and the breech stuff is only 3-4% are breech and I had it twice. It's like, How is this possible? But yeah, my water broke around 5:00 AM and me running to the bathroom, I woke my son up and he came in. It was really sweet. He got in bed with me and we just cuddled for about an hour and I talked to him about how his baby brother was going to come today. It was just a really nice moment to cuddle with him. Meagan: Oh yeah. Those moments are so precious because you're like, these are the last moments of just us as a family of 4 and now we're adding a 5th and these are the last little moments together without little siblings. I'll always remember that. So we did that. We cuddled for about an hour and then the contractions actually started without me having to pump. This time, I was going to wait a little bit longer before pumping because I wondered if the contractions every 2 hours with my daughter for the whole labor was maybe because of the pumping. Having contractions that close made things really difficult. Meagan: Oh yeah. Not a lot of a break. Every 2 minutes, there's not a ton of a break especially when they were a minute long. Not a lot there. Lauren: No. So I was like, Maybe that will change. I knew I could handle it but I was like, If I don't have to, that would be great. They started pretty slow about 6 minutes apart or so really gently. At around 6:00, I went ahead and woke my husband up and let him know. I called my parents. I had texted my doula but I went ahead and called her just to let her know. I called my doctor. She again just asked me, “What are your plans?” I just said, “Stay here to let things pick up and then head to the hospital.” She was like, “Okay, that sounds good.” I just labored at home. My parents live 2 hours away but they were coming to get our older two kids. I was going to try to pack the hospital bag because I had not done that yet. Meagan: Well, at 37 weeks. Lauren: That was the plan for that weekend. I kept having to sit down because of the contractions. My husband said, “Let me do it. Tell me what you need.” I would just give him the instructions as I just bounced on the birth ball. We got that done and my parents showed up. They brought me a big smoothie because I was like, “I want to eat but I don't want to chew so get me a smoothie.” That was really nice just to have something in my stomach and give me some energy and stuff. They got here at around 9:30 and at around almost 11:00, I was like, “These contractions are starting to feel real.” I had a first birth reference at that point. Meagan: Yeah, like more intense and frequent and strong. Lauren: Exactly. Oh, but I will say by 7:30 again, at 7:30 that morning, I was back at 2 minutes apart. Meagan: Oh man. It's just something your body does. Lauren: That's just me, yeah. But they weren't intense and this time, I knew. I was like, Okay. I know this is not intense. I'm still able to talk through them. I'm able to recover very well, but then right around 11:00, I was like, “Things are getting really intense now so I think we need to go.”We left for the hospital and let my doula know. I called my doctor as well and it was really wonderful talking to her too because she said, “You know, when you go in there, make sure you are confident. Tell them this is the plan. You are going to do a breech VBAC. We have already discussed this.” I think she was worried too. The hospital, I will say, I do not feel was supportive. I think it was mainly that they were scared. I think she knew that too, but having her in my corner was what I needed. Meagan: Yeah, very huge. Lauren: We got to the hospital and she had gone ahead and called them to directly admit me so I didn't have to do triage and all that. That made it so much quicker. We got there probably around 11:40 or so and we were already in our room and the doctor was coming in by 12:00. She came in and she checked me. She was like, “All right. You're already at about a 5 or a 6 so you're doing great.” She's like, “I'll be in the hospital for a while so they'll just call me when you need me. Just do your thing. I was like, “All right. Here we go.” I did get in the bed for a little while so they could do the IVs and stuff like that. I told them I wanted the wireless monitor. They were having trouble working it but they still never made me do any monitors because I told them I can't do continuous unless it is wireless because I need to be able to move. They didn't argue with that so that was nice. Once they got all that done, I got on the birth ball. We played some music that I had preplanned and my doula and my husband both helped me work through the contractions then it was 12:58 which was less than an hour when my body started pushing again. I'm like, You've got to be kidding me. I can't do this.They called the nurse in because I was like–Meagan: Last time this happened at 6 centimeters. Please don't tell me. Lauren: They came to check and she was like, “Oh my gosh, she's complete and he's right there.” I was like, “What?” Meagan: Yay!Lauren: Yes. They called my doctor. I was panicking a little bit but she wasn't there. She was in the hospital but because she wasn't in my room and I went from a 5 to complete in less than an hour, I'm like, “Is this baby just going to shoot out of me?” I was like, “I need her to be here.” Anyway, she got there very quickly and this time, I knew I didn't want to be on my back so they had me just try some different positions but I really liked when the bed was sat up and I was facing the back and leaned over it so I was upright. Then I was able to move my pelvis around and just find a comfortable position. I really liked that. I started pushing because I could. He just very, very slowly came out and my doula was recording because I wanted a recording of my last birth but I was just too out of it to even ask for it so I had let my husband and doula ahead of time that I wanted it so my doula took care of that. She was there recording it. Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: Yeah. I was pushing I remember this one hurt a lot more than my daughter. I think they stretch you differently. I remember panicking to my husband, “Oh my gosh. This hurts.” He was just slowly coming out but I couldn't see what was going on. With my daughter, they rolled out a mirror so I could see what was going on. I felt like I was pushing wine. I didn't ask him to but my husband stepped in and he was like, “Okay, I see a leg now. Oh, there goes the other leg.” He started just telling me body parts and I was able to get a visual which was so helpful to be able to know how much was coming out. When it got to his chest, it felt like my body was just like, Okay, we're done. The contractions just stopped and I was like, “What's going on? They were coming so fast and now they're just chilling out or whatever.” They were like, “It's fine. We'll just wait until the next contraction.” They did start coming back but it didn't feel as strong and it felt slower. I don't know what that was about. It could have just been my perception too. He came all the way out up to his neck and then he wasn't really coming much further after he got to his neck. The doctor was turning him because he had the cord wrapped around his neck twice. He just didn't seem to be moving like he was supposed to. She said, “I need to check and see if his head is flexed,” and it was not. She had to put both hands inside to flex his head so that it was in the correct position and she had turned him over to try and get some of the cord off as well. It got a little intense there for a minute. She said, “Okay. I need you to get on your hands and knees,” so I did that and that wasn't working. She said, “Okay, mom. I want to get you to flip over. I just need a different angle to get him out.” I flipped over on my back which I was completely fine with at that point. I wasn't panicked. I had a little bit of anxiety and fear but I wasn't really scared because my doctor seemed so confident in that she's got this. We just need to do something a little different to get him out. We flipped on my back and she got his head exactly where it needed to be. I did two more pushes and he came out. He had gotten stuck longer than they wanted him to so she said, “We're going to go ahead and cut the cord and get him to the nursery team who was coming in” because they needed to resuscitate him just from the time it took. Meagan: He was shocked Lauren: She said too, “He's going to be okay. He's trying to cry but he needs help.” I said, “Okay.” I felt good at that point. I knew that if he was trying to cry that he was still conscious. The NICU team– it was charted wrong how long he was stuck. I think they panicked a little bit because they just went and they intubated him immediately and they said, “Okay, we need to get him to the NICU.” I hadn't even touched him at that point. I said, “Can I touch him or kiss him or talk to him before you take him?” I asked my doctor that and she said, “Can you bring him over here so she can give him a little pat before you take him?” The nurse looked over and she goes, “She can see him from where she's at,” and they left with him. Meagan: Oh. Oh. Oh boy. Lauren: To me, it did feel like a punishment for doing a breech. They went back and looked and they charted that he was stuck for 5 minutes. We had a video and he was stuck for a minute and 40 seconds. Huge difference. Meagan: Very big, yeah. Lauren: They went immediately to what they would do with a baby who had been stuck for 5 minutes. They charted his APGAR as 0 but my doctor said, “It can't be because he whimpered when he got out so he's got to have at least something.” It was all just a big overreaction at that point. They were supposed to monitor him for 4 hours to make a decision and they immediately just made the decision to admit him to the NICU which meant he was stuck in NICU for at least 3 days. Then within– when I went to go see him, it was within 2 hours. They had already extubated him. He was already breathing on his own with no problems whatsoever. Meagan: He was fine. Lauren: Yeah, he was fine.The next morning, my doctor went and talked to the doctors–Meagan: The pediatricians? Lauren: Yeah. Yeah at the NICU and just let them know, “This is wrong in the chart. This is wrong in the chart,” educating them about breech VBAC. She also did talk to them about the behavior of the nurse and she said, “It was unacceptable.” They talked about that. Oh, because that same nurse, when I finally got up to the NICU to see him, she had her back turned and she didn't see me coming and I heard her talk. She goes, “Well, you know, he came out the wrong way.” Then she realized that I was behind her and she walked away. I never saw her after that. Meagan: She probably was avoiding you. Lauren: I was like, Oh my goodness. I can't believe that just happened. Meagan: Seriously. Obviously, she's got a chip on her shoulder toward people who are doing things that are actually normal, just a different variation. Lauren: After my doctor talked to them that morning, as soon as she left, they called me and they weren't going to let me breastfeed or hold him or anything like that because he had a central line in his umbilical cord and they said, “It's too risky. It could fall out.” As soon as she left, they were like, “We're going to actually let you try to latch and hold him. We'll just have to be really careful.” Meagan: Good for your doctor for advocating for you guys. Lauren: That was one of my things that I just really love about her. That's not something that she had to do. She took the time out to review everything that night. I had him on a Saturday so she reviewed everything that night, got up early the next morning, went to the NICU, advocated for me, and I'll just never forget her for that. She's my angel.Meagan: Yeah. That's how it should be. That's really how it should be. Are you willing to share her name for anyone looking for VBAC support and especially for breech? Lauren: Yeah. Her name is Dr. Robinson and she's at Alabama Women's Wellness Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: Yes. It's really hard to find a VBAC-supportive provider in Alabama but breech VBAC? That's hard anywhere. Meagan: I have Alabama Women's Wellness Center because we have our supportive provider list that we are working on right now to perfect so everybody can get access to that in a better way and we don't have her on there so I'll make sure to add her. Lauren: Yes. Thank you. Yeah. She's amazing. That's probably an understatement. Meagan: She sounds absolutely incredible. I'm just so happy for you. I'm so glad that you had that advocate through a provider and it sounds like the second time, it was a little bit more of that informed consent, truly wanting to incorporate you into this experience with a little less of that the second time, but holy cow. Amazing. A minute and 40 seconds, that might feel like an eternity to someone watching, but really, that's actually pretty quick and your provider knew, “Okay, let's change positions. Let's move. Let's get this going,” and baby's out. It can be common for babies to come out a little stunned breech or not breech. Sometimes they come out a little stunned and you also had a really fast transition so you went from a 5 to a 10 really fast. There are a lot of things to take into consideration there for sure. Lauren: Yeah. I think she said that they charted from the time his butt came out is what they told her and with a breech, you're supposed to chart once the shoulders are out. Meagan: Yeah, the shoulders and the neck. That makes sense that they got that mixed up. Well, I wanted to go over the different types of breech. You already said this earlier that it's kind of crazy that 3-4% of people will have a full-term breech and I know baby number one was 36 weeks but pretty much right there right around the corner of full-term. But 3-4% and you've had two so it's pretty low but we know that breech is happening. It's just not being supported. I wanted to talk about a couple of different things.There are different types of breech and that is something that I think is important to know. We've got frank breech and that's where the baby's butt is down into the vaginal canal or down and the legs are sticking right up where the baby's feet are in front. Do you know if your baby was frank breech? Lauren: Yeah, they were both frank. Meagan: Yeah. That's typically where a provider, if they are supportive, will allow a vaginal birth, and then complete breech is where the butt is down and both the hips and knees are flexed. Footling is where one or sometimes both– it's like they are either standing inside or where they are being a flamingo and doing a one-foot thing facing down. Or we know that there is transverse where the baby is sideways. Footling and transverse– I mean, transverse for sure cannot come out vaginally. Footling has some more concerns so most providers will not support that. Anyway, overall, my suggestion is if you have a breech, one, know the options to try to help rotate a baby. If you so choose, there are also risks to ECVs. We have a blog around ECV and we want to make sure it's in the show notes. We are going to link some more about breech babies as well but know that you have options. You do have options. It's not like Lauren's first where she walked in and was felt that she was stripped away of all the options. If you're looking for a VBAC-supportive provider, something that I always tell my clients and I need to suggest this more on the podcast is while you are asking questions like, “How do you support VBAC?” and all of these questions talk about, one of those questions is “What if my baby's breech? What does that look like?” I think that's a really great question to add in there because then you can know, “Okay, not only is this provider VBAC-supportive, but they are even breech-supportive.” We never know. Sometimes babies just flip and sometimes they flip in the very end. It's very rare but it happens so it's just really important to know. Add that to your list of questions as you are going through and asking for support for VBAC how they are for breech. Do you have any other things that you would suggest for someone maybe going to have or deciding to have a breech birth in general? Lauren: Just try to be as knowledgeable as you can about it because that gave me a lot of peace just knowing all the facts and just the knowledge. It made me feel a lot more comfortable with it all. Meagan: Absolutely. It sounds like you did. You just told me a stat just barely so it sounds like you are very confident and you know about breech. I would suggest the same thing. Know the pros and the cons of all three– ECV, breech vaginal, and Cesarean. Let's learn all of them. Well, thank you so much for being here with me today and sharing all of your beautiful birth stories and letting me meet your sweet Ollie via Zoom and sharing these stories to empower other Women of Strength to make the best choice for them. Lauren: Yes. I really appreciate it. I was very excited when you asked me to come on. Meagan: Oh my gosh. We are so happy to have you. Lauren: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lauren has had three very different births. She had a peaceful C-section due to breech presentation with a difficult recovery, a wild, unmedicated VBAC, and a calm, medicated 2VBAC. Due to her baby's large size, she had to have an extra incision made during her Cesarean leaving her with a special J scar. Though her provider was hesitant to support a TOLAC with a special scar, Lauren advocated for herself by creating a special relationship with her OB and they were able to move forward together to help Lauren achieve both of her VBACs. Lauren talks about the importance of having an open mind toward interventions as she was firmly against many of the things that ended up making her second VBAC the most redemptive and healing experience of all. How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. Guess what? We have our friend Lauren and her 11-day-old baby. Is that right? Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: 11 days old. You guys, I actually didn't even know that this baby existed until we popped up on the Zoom and she was holding this precious little newborn. She was like, “Surprise! I had another VBAC.” So we will be sharing, well she will be sharing her two VBACs so 2VBAC and something kind of unique about Lauren is that she has a special scar, a special J scar, correct? Lauren: Yep. Meagan: Yeah, so that happened in her first C-section. If you are listening and you have a special scar or have been told that you have a special scar, this is definitely an episode that you are going to want to put on repeat and save because I know that there are so many people out there who are told that they have a special scar and that they should never or can never VBAC again. I know we're not even getting into the story quite yet, Lauren, but did you have any flack with that? Did anyone talk about your special scar at all? Lauren: Yes. Advocating for the VBAC is probably the overarching theme of my VBAC because I really had to go to bat for myself for that without switching providers. Meagan: Yeah. We know that's so common. We see it a lot in our community just in general trying to get a VBAC let alone a VBAC with a special scar. We are going to get into her story but I have a review and I didn't even know that this was a review. It was left in a Baby Bump Canada group on Reddit actually so that was kind of fun to find. It's really nice. It says, “Seriously, I'm addicted. I find them so healing. I had an unplanned and very much unwanted C-section and I have been unknowingly carrying around all of these emotions and trauma about it since. I thought I was empowered going into my first birth, but I wasn't strong enough to stop the medical staff with all of their interventions. Don't get me wrong, I believe interventions are necessary in some instances. But looking back now, I realize those interventions were put in place to make things easier involved in delivering my baby. Anyway, I won't get into all of that here, maybe in a separate post. The point of my post is checking out The VBAC Link podcast. I listen to them all day now while caring for my babe. They also have a course you can take focusing on preparing for VBACs. Even if you just like birth stories, they have CBAC stories I believe as well. On the podcast, a guest also pointed out that what do you want for a VBAC birth– peace, redemption, etc.? She talked about how you can still feel those things if you need a Cesarean.” I love that point of view right there that you can still have peace and redemption even if you have a scheduled C-section or if your VBAC ends in a Cesarean. It says, “Another mom pointed out when she was feeling hesitant about saying okay to a C-section, her midwife said, ‘You have permission to get a C-section,' not in a way that a midwife was giving her permission, but telling this mom, ‘C-section is okay and you shouldn't feel like having one is wrong.' My baby is 8.5 months and we aren't going to try for a baby until they're about 18-24 months mostly to increase my chances of VBAC, but I really love these podcasts.” Then she says, “Okay, I'll stop raving now.” I love that. Her title is, “If you're considering a VBAC, I highly recommend The VBAC Link.” Thank you so much to– I don't actually know what your name is. Catasuperawesome on this Baby Bump Canada group. Just thank you so much for your review. As always, these reviews brighten our day here at The VBAC Link but most importantly, they help other Women of Strength find these stories like what we are going to be sharing today with Lauren's story. They help people feel empowered and educated and motivated and even first-time moms. They are really truly helping people learn how to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. I truly believe that from the bottom of my heart. Meagan: Okay, Lauren. As you are rocking your sweet, precious babe, I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories. Lauren: Awesome, thank you. It's so nice to be here finally. I'm so excited because this podcast truly is the reason why I had my VBAC. I am kind of weirdly unique in that I didn't really feel like I had any mothering instincts. My husband and I had been married for 6.5 years before we decided to get pregnant because I always swore off children. I said, “It's not for me. I'm never going to have children. I want to travel and I want to do all of these things and children are for other people. I can't imagine myself as a mom.” My husband said, “Well, let's wait until we are 30,” because we got married really young. He was like, “Let's just wait until we are 30 and we will revisit the discussion.” I always find it kind of nice when I hear stories of women who feel similarly to the way I did because it's so relatable and I feel like we are very few and far between. That's another reason I wanted to share my story because I know there are other women out there like me. So anyway, it just so happened that at this time, my sister was pregnant. My brother was pregnant. My husband's brother was pregnant. We were like, “You know, we're almost 30. We've waited a long time. If we're going to have kids, we might as well have a kid when he or she is going to have all of these cousins.” My husband was like, “Let's start trying.” I'm like, “Great. I'm going to give it two months and if we don't get pregnant, we're not going forward with this. I'm going to say I tried and I can tell everyone I tried and that it didn't work.” Well, God has a sense of humor because two weeks later, I had a positive pregnancy test. Meagan: Two weeks later? Lauren: Yes. Meagan: So you were already pregnant when you had this conversation. Lauren: I was already taking birth control. I was multiple days into the pack. I just threw it in the trash and was like, “Let's just see what happens.” I guess when you do that, you can get pregnant. I don't know. I didn't really have a cycle. I got pregnant. I was so naive about how it all worked. I'm like, “Okay. The test is positive. I'm pregnant. It is what it is. I'm very much pregnant.” I had not doubt. I had no worry about miscarriage, nothing because I had a positive pregnancy test. That's sort of how I went through my pregnancy, kind of disconnected, very naive, and a little bit in denial that I was actually pregnant all the way up until the end. I read one book and it was called The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy and it's this really sarcastic, funny book. She's very flippant about pregnancy and very straightforward with my sense of humor. I liked it because I felt the same way. I wasn't mushy or emotional. I had no connection to the pregnancy. I am pregnant. That's a fact. Anyway, at 26 weeks, my doctor was like, “You know, I think he's breech.” I was like, “Okay.” I knew what breech was, but I'm like, “Okay, what does that mean?” She was like, “Well, I would start doing some Spinning Babies exercises. Let's just keep an eye on it. I was going to a chiropractor this whole time. This is important for people to know. I was going to a chiropractor before I even got pregnant regularly. This chiropractor was seeing me. I told her that the baby was breech. “Can you help me flip him? Can we do some bodywork?” I continued to see her. I don't know if it was once or twice a week but it was often. 36 weeks rolls around and I see the midwife in the practice. She is not finding the heartbeat where it should be. She finds it up higher and she goes, “Lauren, I think your baby is still breech.” I thought there was no way. I had been seeing a chiropractor. I had been doing body work and stuff. She was like, “Well, why don't you go see the chiropractor that our practice recommends?” I'm like, “Okay.” I call this chiropractor on the phone. I leave her a message and I'm like, “I've been seeing another chiropractor, but my baby is breech.” She immediately called me right back and she was like, “What has the chiropractor been doing?” I'm like, “It feels like a normal adjustment like nothing different from before I was pregnant.” She was like, “So you've been on your side and she's been twisting your back and your pelvis away from each other?” You know how they do those kinds of adjustments? I said, “Yes.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” She's like, “How soon can you come see me?” I started seeing her. My OB actually also recommended moxibustion. She got me set up with an acupuncturist in the area which I thought was really cool that she was like, “Some people say they swear by this. You need to do more Spinning Babies. I want you to go to acupuncture.” I saw this chiropractor and she was like, “What that chiropractor is doing to you is not pregnancy-safe. She's not Webster-certified and you needed to be seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor.” That's one of my regrets because I feel like had I known, obviously, I can't say I blame her 100%. I was also working out a ton because I'm like, “I don't want this pregnancy to change my body. I'm going to be skinny.” That's all I cared about so I'm sure I was holding my abdominal muscles way too tight too. I'm sure I contributed to it as well, but just knowing that probably was a major contributor to what ended up happening to this day irritates me. But anyway, he never flipped. He was solidly in my ribcage. He never moved. I would push on his head and he would not even budge an inch. My doctor was like, “You know, I would normally recommend an ECV, but he seems very wedged in your rib cage. He's stargazing,” which means his head is tilted up. His chin is pointed up. She said, “You are on the low end of normal for amniotic fluid.” She was like, “You have these three strikes against you basically. We can try it if you want to try it, but I'm going to say it's probably not going to work.” I had to wrestle with that. I ended up calling my husband's aunt who is a labor and delivery nurse for 30 years. I asked her for her opinion. I'm like, “Have you ever been in on an ECV? Tell me about it.” Naively, I went with her advice. She said, “If your doctor is not confident, then that means it's not going to work.” She's like, “I've seen so many births and I believe that every baby should be delivered via C-section because birth is dangerous and it's scary.” I'm like, “Okay, okay. I'm just going to move forward with the C-section. I'm so glad I talked to you.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: We scheduled the C-section and you know what? It really wasn't that big of a deal. My friend's husband was actually my anesthesiologist. My doctor was there. It was very happy. It was very pleasant. I had gone out to dinner with my friends the night before. If you could plan the perfect C-section, it was the perfect C-section. I just talked to my friend's husband the whole time. Again, not connected to this pregnancy at all. It was very much like, “Okay, a baby is going to come out. What is this going to be like?” I remember the doctor held him up over the curtain. I made eye contact with him and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm a mom.” The nurse was like, “Do you want to do skin-to-skin?” I was like, “What's that? Sure.” “Do you want to breastfeed?” “I think so. Sure.” Very naive. What ended up happening was that the recovery was just really tough. The surgery was great, but I did not expect the recovery to be so tough. I feel like the way people speak of C-sections is so casual. “Oh, just have a C-section. I had C-sections for all my babies. It's no big deal. It's a cakewalk.” That's the mindset I went into it with. Same with my husband because I reassured him, “It's no big deal. We're just going with the flow.” No. It's awful. It's major surgery. I'm allergic to– I think a lot of people are– the duramorph that they put in the spinal so I had the most severe, horrible itching for 24 hours to the point that they basically overdosed me on Benadryl because I could not cope and my vitals were crashing. I was barely having any respiration. They had to shake me awake and put cold washcloths on my head. They were like, “Hello,” because I was having such a hard time with the itching. Not only that, but the pain. It's painful. In my surgery, backing up a little bit, the doctor said, “Wow. He's really wedged in there and he's a lot bigger than I expected. I thought he was going to be maybe 7.5-7.25 pounds.” She goes, “He tore your incision coming out because he was so big.” She was like, “You have a J incision now so your incision goes horizontal and then vertically up.” She said, “Unfortunately, that means you'll never be able to have a VBAC. You're just going to be a C-section mama.” I was just lying there like, “Whatever. You're asking me what skin-to-skin is and breastfeeding and no vaginal births.” It was just a lot of information to process and take in and make decisions about. He ended up being 9 pounds. He was a good-sized baby. Anyway, that was my c-section experience. I know I'm probably one of the lucky few who could say that their C-section was so peaceful, really no trauma from it. I just thought, “I'm fine with that.” I watched my sister have a failed TOLAC and it looked kind of traumatizing and she was still traumatized from it just a couple months before my C-section so I'm like, “It's fine. I'll just be a C-section mom, but that recovery was terrible so I'll have one more baby and that's it.” I'm not going to have any more kids. I don't want to experience that again. That was May 2019. Fast forward to COVID times. We were thinking about getting pregnant before my son turned one but COVID hit so we were like, “Let's just give it a couple of months and see what shakes up with this pandemic.” The world stopped. I'm in real estate so for a while, we weren't allowed to show any property or do anything so I just was sitting at home doing nothing. I remember one night, I was just sitting there doing a puzzle bored as heck and I'm like, “I'm going to go listen to a podcast while I do this.” My phone suggested The Birth Hour. I hope I'm allowed to say that. Meagan: I love The Birth Hour, yes. Lauren: I was scrolling through the episodes and there was one on VBAC. I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to listen to this.” The interviewee mentioned The VBAC Link so I was like, Okay, I should check that podcast out. I was like, Why am I even listening to this? This is so not my wheelhouse, childbirth. I still didn't care about it, but listening to these podcasts opened up a whole new world for me. I'm so glad I found it all before I got pregnant. I started listening to all of those podcasts then I think I found through your podcast. I don't think it was The Birth Hour. Someone mentioned Dr. Stu so I started listening to his podcast and man, that guy set fire. He had so much great information. I listened to every podcast pretty much that he had done, especially the ones on VBAC because he talks about VBAC a lot and just how it really shouldn't be a big deal or shouldn't make you high risk and all of that. At the time, he was still graciously reviewing people's op-reports for them and now he doesn't do that. I think you have to pay for it, but I emailed him. I reached out to him and I emailed him my op report and I just said, “If you could look at this, my provider told me I wasn't a VBAC candidate but I want your opinion.” He got right back to me and he was like, “There's no reason you can't have a VBAC. This scar is really not that big of a deal. Yes, it's a special scar, but it shouldn't take away from your opportunity to TOLAC.” I ended up getting pregnant in the fall of 2020 and I went to my first appointment and my OB was like, “What do you want to do for your birth this time?” I'm like, “Did she forget what she told me? She must have forgotten.” I was like, “I want a VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, I'll give you my VBAC consent form and we can talk about it as your pregnancy progresses.” I'm like, “Okay, cool.” I saw her again at 12 weeks and she was like, “I'm having some hesitations because you had such a big baby and your scar is not normal. I think we need to talk about this a little bit more but let's not worry abou tit now. We can put it off and worry about it later.” I was like, “Okay.” I was so bummed because I love my OB. Funny story, I met my OB when I was worked for a home design company called Pottery Barn and I met her one day just helping her buy pillows. I'm like, “What do you do for work?” She was like, “I'm an OB.” I'm like, “Cool. I need an OB.” I had just moved to the area so I just started seeing her. I think I was one of her first patients so she knew me. It wasn't like she was a friend and a provider I only saw once a year, but we always picked up where we left off. We had a good relationship. I really did not want to change providers. I don't want this to sound like I was being manipulative, but I was like, I'm just going to really lean into this good relationship we have and just try to win her over. As the pregnancy progressed, at the next appointment I think I saw a midwife. I talked to the midwife about the VBAC and my OB's opinion and she was like, “I've seen a lot of women VBAC with a J scar at my old practice. I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll talk to the doctor for you and hopefully, we can figure this out.” I was like, “Okay.” Then I want to say I went to my 20-week appointment and they told me, “Okay, your baby is gigantic.” They said, “He is going to be between 9 and 10 pounds,” because he was measuring two weeks ahead. They said, “But the other concern we have is that you have marginal cord insertion and that could make for a small baby.” I'm like, “Okay, so is he big, or is he small?” Clearly that marginal cord insertion is helping him not being 12 pounds? What are you trying to tell me? They're like, “Either way, we suggest that you come back at 32 weeks. We have concerns about his size. He might be a tiny peanut. He might be enormous.” I'm like, “I think I'm good. Thanks, but no thanks.” Thanks to you guys, you push advocation so much that I'm like, “This doesn't add up. You can't tell me that he's too big and too small. I'm just going to go with fundal height and palpation if my doctor has a concern, we'll come back.” I never scheduled that growth scan. I was very protective of this pregnancy. I didn't want any outside opinions. I was so afraid that if I went and had this growth scan, I would be pushed to do a C-section. I wanted an unmedicated birth. I was terrified of the hospital. I was listening to so many podcasts all day every day. It was like an obsession so then I told Meagan before we were recording is that I felt like I was almost idolizing the VBAC. It was all I could think about. It was all I could talk about and it became this unhealthy obsession. Right around 25-26 weeks, I decided to hire a doula and move forward with the VBAC. It didn't matter to me what the doctor said. Right around that time, I was having some hesitations. Just getting that pushback from my doctor and knowing he was big, I started to let the fear creep in. I told my husband, “You know what? Maybe we should just do a C-section. I think I'm overanalyzing this so much. I'm just going to push aside this research I have done because clearly I'm obsessed and it's consuming me.” Meagan: Yeah, which is easy to do. Just to let you know, it really is easy to let it consume you. Lauren: It totally is. I think that we have to take a step back sometimes, come back to reality, and if you let the information override your instincts which I think is really easy to do, I think you can get too wound up or too set on something that might not be meant for you. Speaking of instincts, that night, I still remember. I had told my husband, “I'm just going to have a C-section.” I went to bed and I had a dream. I was in the hospital in the dream and I was holding my baby and my dad walked in. I have a really great relationship with my parents but especially my dad. I love my dad. He comes in the room and he's like, “How did it go?” He was meeting the baby for the first time and I burst into tears in the dream. I said, “Dad, I didn't even give myself the opportunity to VBAC. I just went in for a C-section. I just have so much regret about it and what could have happened if I had tried to have a VBAC.” Meagan: That just gave me the chills. Lauren: Yes. It was so weird. I have never really had a dream like that before. I woke up and I was like, “There's my answer. I have to move forward with this.” Having that dream gave me this peace that there is the instinct I need to follow. Yes, I have all of this information that is consuming me, but it was like, Keep going. I hired a doula which I found through The VBAC Link Facebook page. I put it out there, “Does anyone know a doula in my area?” Julie commented and it happened to be her really good friend who had just moved back to my area. I called her and it turned out that we had mutual friends. We connected really fast. I think, like I said, it was about 26 weeks. I go to my OB again and we had more of a pow-wow like a back-and-forth on the VBAC option. She was like, “I'm just worried about it. A C-section is not that big of a deal. We could just tie your tubes and then you won't have pelvic floor issues.” False. I said, “I got a second opinion from another doctor.” I didn't say it was Dr. Stu. I didn't say it was some guy with a podcast in LA. I said, “I got a second opinion and I feel like I just want the opportunity.” We didn't really land on anything solid, but she got up to leave the room and she got to the door and she turns around. She came back over to me and she gave me this big hug. She said, “I don't want to disappoint you. I want you to be happy, but let's keep talking about this.” I was like, “Okay.” That gave me a little bit of reassurance that I was leaning into that relationship I had built with her over the years because it had been 6 or 7 years of seeing her. I would also bring her flowers. I would always try to talk to her about her life and making a social connection with someone. If you let your doctor intimidate you just from the standpoint of being a stranger, I feel like that can really change the course of your care. But if you try to get to know people, and that's not necessarily a manipulative thing, but I think it's important. It should be important in your relationship with your doctor. If you don't feel like you can connect with them, there is issue number one, but I really felt like I could connect with her. I leaned into that. I have a cookie business on the side. She loved my cookies. We just had some other things to talk about other than my healthcare and I feel like it set this foundation of mutual respect. What doctor comes over, gives you a hug, and tells you, “I want you to love your birth”? So fast forward again, I see her again the next time and she said, “Look. I brought your case to my team and because we support moms who have had two C-sections, we felt like your risk is similar to theirs and that it shouldn't risk you out of a TOLAC so I'm going to support you if this is what you want.” I had given her this analogy that I think was Julie's analogy. She said, “If you needed heart surgery and you were told that you had a 98% chance of success–” because I think my risk of rupture was 2% or maybe a little bit lower, maybe 1.5. I told her this. I'm like, “If you told me I needed heart surgery and I had a 98 or 99% chance of success, we would do it. There would be no question. I have this 1% risk of rupture. I'm coming to the hospital. What gives? I should at least be able to try.” The problem is, I'm sure some people are like, “Why didn't you just switch providers?” We have three hospitals in my area. One is 20 minutes from me and two are one hour away. One of them which is an hour away is the only place where I can VBAC and there isn't a VBAC ban. There is maybe a handful of providers who deliver there. I knew my provider was VBAC-supportive sort of. She had the most experience of a lot of the providers around me so that's why I didn't switch. I had very minimal options for care. I couldn't go to LA or I couldn't go somewhere further away. It would be a four-hour drive either way. We are in an isolated area. I felt like that was a huge win. We are set to go. I remember I told Katrina. Katrina was so happy for me, my doula. I just soldiered on. I started taking Dr. Christopher's Birth Prep at 36 weeks. I was doing my dates and I was really busy in real estate. That's part of my story. I was so busy working super hard and I was getting to the end of my pregnancy. At 38 weeks, I went in and I had clients lined up showings coming up. I was like, “I can't have a baby anytime soon.” I was talking to my provider about it. “Maybe at 40 weeks, we can talk about a membrane sweep or something. I have so much on my plate. I can't have a baby this week.” My husband is a firefighter and his shift that he was going to be taking off was starting maybe the following week. I'm like, “He's not even going to be home. He's going to be gone most of this week. This is a horrible week to have a baby.” I let her check my cervix because I'm like, “I want to see if my birth prep or my dates are doing anything.” At the same time, I still had this fear of, What if I do all of this work and I don't even dilate? That was kind of what happened with my sister so I had that fear in the back of my mind. She checks me and she was like, “You are 2 centimeters dilated, 50% effaced. You're going to make it to your due date no problem. We're not even going to talk about an induction until 41 weeks.” She was like, “I'm just not worried about it. He doesn't feel that big to me. He doesn't feel small. He doesn't feel too big. He feels like a great size.” I said, “I know. I feel really confident that he's going to be 8 pounds, 2 ounces.” I spoke that out. I said, “That's my gut feeling. I just have so much confidence and peace about this birth. I just know it's going to work out.” I go on my merry little way from that appointment. I'm walking around. We had gone down to the beach. We were walking around and I'm like, “Man, I'm so crampy. For some reason, that check made me so, so crampy.” This was 38 weeks exactly. We go back home and I have prodromal labor that night. I'm telling Katrina about it. She goes, “You know, I bet the check irritated your uterus.” The next day, I start having some bloody discharge. I'm like, “What is this? What does this mean?” I told Katrina and she said, “It could mean nothing. It could mean labor is coming soon. We'll just have to see.” I hadn't slept the whole night before. She was like, “You need to get a good night's sleep.” I had to show property all day. I met these clients for the first time. I showed four or five houses to them and meanwhile, I'm like, “Gosh, I'm so sore and tired and crampy.” I told them, “I'm very obviously pregnant, but my due date is not until the end of the month.” This was June 10th and my due date was June 23rd. I said, “We have time. If you need to see houses, it shouldn't be a big deal. I don't want my pregnancy to scare you away.”That night, I get home and I'm like, “I'm going to bed. It's 8:00. I'm going to bed. I'm going to take Benadryl and I'm going to get the best night's sleep.” They call me at 9:00 PM and they're like, “Lauren, we saw this house online. It's brand new on the market. We have to see it.” They lived a couple of hours away so I'm like, “I'll go and I'll Facetime you from the house. I'll go tomorrow.” Tomorrow being June 11th. I'm like, “We'll make it happen. I promise I will get you a showing on this house.”I texted Katrina and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. I feel so crampy and so sore. Something might be going on, but I have to work tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.” I wake up the next morning. It's now June 11th and I lose my mucus plug immediately first thing. There was some blood. It was basically bloody show. I told Katrina and she's like, “Okay, just keep me posted. I have a feeling he's going to come this weekend. It was a Friday. I'm like, “Well, he can't because my husband works Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I don't have time to have a baby.” We go to the showing. I'm finally alone without my toddler and my husband. I'm in the car and I'm like, “Man, my lower back hurts. It's just coming and going but nothing to write home about, just a little bit of cramping.” Of course, I never went into labor with my first so I did not know what to expect. I get to the showing and this house had a really steep staircase. I'm Facetiming my clients and I'm going up the stairs. It was probably at noon and I'm thinking to myself, Man, it's really hard to go up these stairs. Why do I feel so funny? I finish up the showing and they're like, “We want the house. This is the house for us.” I get back in the car. I'm getting all of their information. I'm talking to the other agent. I start the offer and I'm like, “I'm just going to drive home and get in my bed because I don't feel good. I'm just going to write this offer from my bed and everything will be fine.” I get home and I tell my husband at 2:30, “I'm just going to sit in our bed and get this offer sent off.” Mind you, I had a work event, a big awards event that night for my whole office and we were going to have to leave at 4:00 PM. My in-laws were going to come get my son and take him to sleep over. It's 2:30. I'm writing this offer and I'm like, “I don't feel good.” My partner calls me. I tell her, “Listen, I don't know if I'm in labor, but I don't feel well. Maybe I have a stomach bug. I'm going to write this offer. I'm going to give you my clients' information and I want you to take over for me a little bit. They know I'm really pregnant, but this could just be a sickness but either way if something happens, I want them to have the best care and be taken care of if we are going to send this offer off.” I send the offer off. It's 3:30 at this point. I close my computer and I'm waiting for them to DocuSign. I text my husband, “There's no way I'm going tonight. I don't feel well. Something is up. I'm not sure what.” He didn't see my text for a little while. He comes in the room at 4:00 and he starts to talk to me. I literally fall to the ground with my first contraction. I'm in active labor.I don't know it yet, but I'm in active labor. I'm just like, “It feels like there's a wave crashing in my body.” That was the best way I could describe it. I'm like, “I feel this building. It's an ebb and flow,” but it reminded me of playing in the waves as a kid because I grew up in Orange County at the beach and just that feeling of the waves hitting you when you are playing in the surf. I'm like, “This is really intense. What is going on?” I'm like, “I'm certain it's a stomach bug.” I told him, “I have gas or something.” I was just like, “I'm going to give myself an enema and this will all go away.” I did that and sitting down on the toilet, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” It made everything so much more intense. I texted Katrina, “Something is going on. I'm not really sure it is.” She's like, “Well, why don't you try timing some contractions for me and let me know?” I crawl into my closet. I can hear my son and my husband getting ready. My son was 2 so of course, 2-year-olds are not always behaving. I can hear them interacting. I crawl into my closet and I'm lying on the floor in the dark. The contractions are 3.5-4 minutes apart lasting a minute. I was like, “I'm still pretty sure this is a stomach thing that is happening every 3-4 minutes.” I call Katrina and I'm like, “I don't know. I think I'm in labor. This is the length of my contractions. It's probably just prodromal.” I had so much prodromal.She was like, “Um, it doesn't really sound like prodromal labor, but I'll let you just figure it out. You let me know when you are ready for support. Make sure you are eating anything. Have you eaten anything today?” “No.” “Have you had any water?” “Not really.” “Okay. Please eat something. Please drink some water and keep me posted.” She goes, “Can you talk through the contractions?” I said, “I can cry.” She's like, “Okay. I'm ready to go as soon as you tell me.” Then the next thing I know, literally, this is probably an hour later so at 4:00 I had my first contraction. Now it's 5:00 and I'm like, “The contractions are 3 minutes apart and lasting a minute.” I said, “Maybe you should come over. I think Sean (my husband) is getting a little nervous.” We were still so naive. We didn't know what labor looked like and what was going on. We were like, “If we're not going to the event, why don't we just keep August (my son) at home? I'll just make him dinner and I'm going to make you dinner.” He starts prepping dinner and I'm like, “I don't think either of us really know what's going on.” Of course, Katrina knew what was going on and probably thought I was a crazy person but I was very much in denial. We texted her to come over and she gets there. I'm lying in my bed and she's like, “Okay, yeah. They're coming 2.5-3 minutes apart. If you're ready to go to the hospital, I'm ready to go with you.” I'm mooing through these contractions, vocalizing everything. I'm like, “It just feels good to vocalize and I just really keep having to use the bathroom. It's probably just my stomach.” She's like, “No.” I can hear her outside my bathroom telling my husband, “I think we should go. She's really vocalizing a lot and that usually means it's pretty substantial, active labor.” Meanwhile, all I can think about is, “I've got to get this offer in for my clients.” I'm waiting on DocuSign, checking my email. Finally, it comes through. This is 6:00, maybe 6:30. I see it come in. I send it off and I'm standing at my kitchen counter with my computer on, mooing, doing this freaking offer. I go to cross my legs as I'm leaning over and I'm like, “I can't cross my legs, Katrina. I feel like my bones are separating.” She's like, “Yeah, baby is probably descending into your pelvis. I think we should get going if you're okay with going.” We have a 45 to an hour drive depending on traffic and the time of day. It's a Friday night so basically where I live, there's not a ton of traffic but we get in the car. She's following us and we get to the hospital. It's probably 7:15-7:30 or something like that. I'm telling my husband as I'm mooing through these contractions, “This really isn't that bad. If this is labor, it's intense and it feels like there's an earthquake in my body, but I would not tell you that I'm in any pain right now.” He's like, “Okay, whatever you say lady.” We ended up having to walk across the whole hospital parking lot to the ER because the regular hospital entrance was closed. As soon as we walked in the hospital, the hormones changed. The adrenaline kicks in. I start feeling pain. I start feeling a little bit panicky and it starts getting harder to cope through these contractions. I'm on the floor of the triage room crying into a trash can and everyone is staring at me. Katrina's like, “They need to stop staring!” She was trying to defend me while my husband is answering all of their dumb questions like, “What's your favorite color? What city is your mom born in?” They're like, “Let's just put you in a wheelchair and get you up there.” I'm like, “I can't sit.” Anytime I tried to sit, the contractions were a minute apart and they were so intense. I get there and I was so protective of this birth and outside interventions, I just was like, “Everything is evil. Cervical checks are evil. The epidural is evil. Everything is going to make me have a C-section.” I was like, “I don't want to know how dilated I am. I don't want anyone in this room to know except the nurse. That's who is allowed to know how dilated I am.” She checks me and the doctor comes in. It was the hospitalist and of all the providers in my area, it was miraculous that I got this hospitalist because he has so much experience. He is so calm, so kind, so supportive. He just said, “Hi, Lauren. I'm Dr. so-and-so and you're in labor. Happy laboring.” No concerns about my TOLAC, nothing. He didn't even bring it up. He didn't ask to check, nothing. Just, “Happy laboring,” and he left the room. I'm like, “Okay. Clearly I'm in active labor.” So then they were getting the tub ready because my room had a tub and as we were waiting for it to warm up, I'm sitting on the ball. I'm having all this bloody show. The nurse asked to check me again before I get in the tub. Unknowingly, I had been 5 centimeters when we arrived. I was 7 now when we got in the tub an hour later. I get in the tub and I wouldn't say it provided me any relief. Honestly, I was so in my head and not necessarily in pain, just so mentally unaware of everything going on, in labor land, but also very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. I told Katrina, “George Washington could have been sitting in the corner watching me labor. I would not have known.” I barely opened my eyes. I had a nurse who was there sitting with us because I had to have a one-on-one nurse for being high-risk and I had to have continuous fetal monitoring. Because I was in the water, she needed to sit there and make sure the monitors didn't move. I couldn't have told you what she looked like, nothing. I didn't speak to her. I was in another world. I think I maybe was in the tub for 30 minutes to an hour. It's probably 9:00 or 10:00. I can't even remember the timeline of it but it wasn't that long of a labor. My water breaks and I start grunting. They're like, “Let's get you out of the tub. Let's get you out of the tub.” I think I was 9 centimeters at this point. We arrived at 7:30. This is probably 10:00 PM or something like that. I'm like, “Okay. I'm just going to lean over the back of this bed and just moo and make noises.” Me being who I am and not super emotional, I'm making jokes about how I sound. I'm like, “You guys, I sound like Dory in Finding Nemo. I'm so embarrassed. Please don't look at my butthole.” I was naked. I'm making all these jokes and coping, I would say pretty well in terms of pain but just very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. They come in and check me and they're like, “Okay, you're complete.” This is at 11:00 PM maybe or 10:30, something like that. But she was like, “You have a little bit of a cervical lip.” It was a provider I hadn't met before at my OB's office but they were like, “We will just let you do your thing. You sound pushy but please don't push because you have a lip. Let's just let him descend.” I could feel his head inside of myself. I could feel his head coming down. I was like, “I want it to be over. I want it to be over.” I'm still in denial of this whole thing this entire time. Are we sure it's not poop? I know there's a baby coming out. Once my water broke, I'm like, “Okay, I guess I'm having a baby.” That was really, truly the first time that I was like, “Okay, this is really happening.”Maybe 30 minutes later, the hospitalist peeks his head in the room and he's like, “Lauren, why don't you try laying on your side?” I tried and it was too painful. I flip over on my back and three pushes later, he comes flopping out. I screamed him out and it was super painful. I was so overwhelmed by how painful it was. I just screamed like a crazy, wild woman. He's on my chest and he's screaming and I'm in all this pain and then she's like, “I've got to give you lidocaine. You tore a little bit. I'm going to stitch you up.” It was just all this pain happening at once, but I was like, “I got my VBAC. That's all that matters. No one touched me and I got my VBAC. I don't care about anything else.” Anyway, it was great. I would not change it for the world because I never had a ton of pain. I never really thought I needed an epidural, but it was a little bit mentally overwhelming. Meagan: Mhmm, sure. Lauren: Anyway, that was my first VBAC. The doctor said, “You pushed so primally. That was the most amazing thing I've ever seen.” The hospitalist was like, “That was incredible to watch. You are a badass.” I was like, “That was such a compliment because I didn't know what I was doing and you're this doctor with all the experience.” Anyway, fast forward to my third pregnancy. This is now the summer of 2023. We decide we're going to have one more baby. I of course had no issues with the VBAC this time because I had a successful TOLAC with my second. I made it to 20 weeks. I had COVID, RSV, and the flu all right around then so they were telling me, “Your baby is measuring totally normal.” I'm like, “Yeah, because I've been sick as a dog for 6 weeks.” I'm like, “Maybe I'm going to get this newborn who is a normal size,” because my son was born at 38 and 2, the second one, and he was 8 pounds, 3 ounces. I had told my doctor 8 pounds, 2 ounces. I was one ounce off. I was like, “Maybe I'll get this little peanut baby and it's going to be so great. I'll finally have a newborn who fits in a diaper for more than two days.” Then I hit 33 weeks and I got huge. I just exploded inside. I go to my OB and I'm like, “I don't feel good. I'm too big. This baby is too big. Something is wrong.” She's like, “No, Lauren. I really just think you make big babies and he just went through a growth spurt. Let's not worry. I'm not going to have you do an ultrasound or anything like that. If he continues to measure 2-3 weeks ahead,” because I was measuring 36 weeks at 33 weeks, “then we can talk about it, but I don't want to worry about it.” I was like, “Okay.” I was having all of this round ligament pain more than I had with my others and prodromal labor was so painful. I remember telling Katrina who I hired again, “I feel like something is wrong with my muscles. I just am so uncomfortable. But I don't want to make any rash decisions based on it. I might get an epidural if this keeps up because this doesn't feel normal. “She was like, “Okay, whatever works.” So I get to my 38-week appointment and I'm thinking, I'm going to have this baby at 38 weeks just like I had my second baby. I had everything ready. Everything was good to go at my house and then day by day, it ticks on. Baby is not coming. Baby is not coming. I was due April 6th. This was just this year, 2024. I get to 38 weeks. I tell my doctor, “Just strip my membranes. I don't even care.” She was like, “Okay, I guess if that's what you want.” She did. Nothing happened. 39 weeks rolls around. She strips my membranes again. Nothing really happens and then the night of Easter, I had this strange experience where I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this contraction that wouldn't end. I couldn't feel the baby move and it freaked me out. I did everything I could to get him to move. I was in the shower. I was eating. I was drinking and doing all of these things. Finally, I called Katrina at 2:00 in the morning. I'm like, “My baby's dead. I'm 100% sure he's gone. What do I do?” She's like, “Lauren, just relax. Lie on your side and drink something sweet.” We were ready to go to the hospital. I remember we had a stethoscope. I got the stethoscope and I put it right where I knew his heartbeat was and I heard a heartbeat. I burst into tears. It was the first time I've ever cried with any of my babies even being put on my chest. I just felt this relief because I had so much anxiety about him with my size being so big and the pain I was having. I was like, “I just want this baby out.” I never really felt that way, but it was this desperate anxiety. A couple of days passed and I'm now in week 39. I'm like, “My uterus is silent like a little church mouse. She's not doing a thing. She's not cramping. She's not contracting. No discharge, nothing.” I'm like, “This baby is never going to come.” I tell my doctor at my 39-week appointment, “If this baby hasn't come by Friday, I'm back here and I want another membrane sweep.” I felt kind of crazy because I'm like, “This is technically an induction, like a natural and I'm intervening.” Me who never wanted anyone to touch me and now I'm like, “Please touch me and pull this baby out of my body.” She goes to check me and she's like, “Lauren, I think he's coming tonight. Your body contracted around my hand when I tried to sweep you. I just wouldn't be surprised. Don't worry.” I'm like, “Okay, well you're breaking my water on Monday.” I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and I'm like, “We're waiting until Monday but I want you to break my water because I'm over it.” She's like, “That's a good idea. Let's threaten this baby and he'll come right out.” This was early in the morning on Friday, the 5th. Anyway, I had all of this anxiety and I just felt like he needed to come out. I couldn't get any peace until I knew he was alive and happy and healthy and on my chest. Friday afternoon, I felt crampy just a little bit the whole day and then at 4:30 PM, I feel this gush and I'm like, “Okay. Is that my water or is it my pee?” because his head felt like it was on my bladder. I didn't say anything to anyone. Then 6:00 rolls around. I text Katrina. I'm like, “Listen, I felt a little gush and I keep feeling it. I put a pad on and it doesn't seem to be urine. I'm not really sure what's happening. I'm just going to do some Miles Circuit and I'll update you.”At 7:30, I'm cleaning my kitchen and all of a sudden, I'm hit with an active labor contraction. I'm like, “Not again. I want labor to start normally so I know what's happening.” No. Baby's like, “I'm ready.” At 7:30, I tell her, “Okay, I'm feeling contractions. I'm getting in the shower to see if it will stop. It might be prodromal. Let's give it an hour. I'm going to text you, but they are 2.5 minutes apart.” She's like, “I'm at dinner. I'm getting boxes. Just let me know.” I was like, “Okay. It might stop though so I wouldn't worry about it.” No, it did not stop. She gets to my house at 9:00 and my car is already running. I'm like, “We're going.” I am mooing through these contractions. I'm going to pop this baby out right now. I had thankfully put some chux pads in the back of my car. I'm on all fours in the back of my car. Mind you, we have to drive an hour to the hospital. I peed all over the chux pad. I just was like, “He's on my bladder. He's on my bladder.” It was so painful and I couldn't control anything. I'm like, “Is this water? Is this pee? I don't even know what's happening.” We get to the hospital. He did not come in the car, thank God, but we did have to go to the ER again and the ER was taking forever. It took a half hour to get me up to labor and delivery as I'm actively mooing in front of the hospital. I was like, “I'm not going in,” because there was a little girl sitting in the waiting room and some convict sitting with a police officer. I'm like, “I'm not having my labor in front of these people!” Even the police officer came out and he was like, “I don't understand what is taking so long. You are clearly about to have this baby. I will bust open these doors for you and walk you up to L&D myself if that's what it takes.” Finally, they got me up there. I arrived. I told Katrina and my husband, “You guys, I'm getting an epidural.” I said, “I have had so much anxiety and so much pain. This does not feel like my previous labor. This feels like I'm suffering.” I said, “I just want to smile. I just want to smile. I want to smile this baby out.” We get up there. I'm 8 centimters dilated. This was the part of the story that I feel like it comes back to advocating for myself. I go in there and I'm like, “I don't care what you need from me. I just need the epidural and stat.” The nurses are scrambling and this doctor walks in. I am on all fours on the bed just staring at the ground, actively transitioning. I see this doctor walk in. I see his feet and he had his shoelaces untied. Immediately, I'm just like, “No. It's a no.” I don't know why. I just was like, “Your shoes are dirty and they are untied. You seem like a hot mess. I'm already a hot mess. I want someone to come in and just be like clean-cut and normal.” He starts asking me all these questions. He's asking me my whole health history, everything about my grandparents, my parents, all of this stuff. I'm in transition then he goes, “You're aware of the risk of TOLAC, right?” I said, “Yes.” He goes, “That your uterus could burst wide open?” I literally saw red. I'm in a contraction and I just screamed like a wild lady. I was like, “Get out.” I wanted to add on some expletives and tell him to get out of the room. I just said, “Get food.” He was like, “I'm  just saying.” He ended up leaving and my nurse peeks her head under. I look over and I see this nurse peeking her head right into my face and it's the same nurse who was there with my first VBAC. She goes, “You don't have to accept care from him.” She goes, “Your doctor is actually the backup on-call doctor tonight.” She goes, “If you refuse care, we can call her and she can come in.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a miracle.” We get the epidural. I'm like, “We've got to slow this thing down. I don't want to have this baby and have this crazy man who I cannot stand anywhere near my body parts, anywhere in this room.” We get the epidural and everything slowed down. I labored down. My doctor ended up coming in and she checked me. She was like, “Your bag is bulging. It feels like rubber. It's so thick.” She was like, “I think that's why he's not coming out.” We got to the hospital at 9:30-9:45. By the time we got in the room, 11:00 by the time I got the epidural, and the anesthesiologist was like, “You're going to have this baby in 30 minutes. I'm certain of it.” To slow it down, I'm closing my legs and doing all of these things to slow it down.My doctor comes in. She breaks my water and fluid goes everywhere. It floods the floor. She goes, “I don't remember any time I've ever seen this much water come out of someone without polyhydramnios. Maybe you had it. I don't know but this is an insane amount of water.” She breaks my water and then my epidural was a pretty low dose because he thought I was having the baby in 30 minutes. It's now 2:30 in the morning and I haven't had the baby yet. I'm getting up on my knees. I'm leaning over the back of the bed and I feel him descending. Then my doctor comes in an hour later and she's like, “Let's get this baby out.” It was 3:30 in the morning and she's like, “Let's go.” She feels me. She's like, “You're complete. I feel his head right here. You just need to push and you can't feel that his head is right here.” So I just get on my back, in lithotomy with the freaking stirrups like I said I would never do with the epidural I said I would never get and I pushed him out in three pushes. He was 9 pounds, 7 ounces. I am so glad I got that epidural. No regrets there because that's a really freaking huge baby. His head was in the 100th percentile or something like gigantic. I tore a little bit again, but I feel like the tradeoff was this peaceful, happy birth. I was making jokes. I had this nurse that I loved and knew. I had my doctor I loved and knew. I had Katrina and I had my husband who were the only people in the room and we laughed our way into this birth. I laughed my baby out basically. I was making jokes the whole time and I just had this peaceful experience. I told my husband, “I know I railed on the epidural my whole pregnancy and I said I would never get it,” but it's a tool ultimately. It's a tool. If you use it wisely, I was very far along. I said, “I don't think it's going to stop my labor.” I felt really confident in my decision. I didn't feel like anything was pushed on me. I made the decision. I'm happy I did it that way. Would I do it again that way? I don't know. I think with every birth, you should be open-minded to the possibilities and your needs. I hear so many stories where women are like, “And then I got the epidural. I had to.” I'm like, “It's okay. Own that decision. You're no worse off for getting it and it doesn't make you any less of a mom or any less of a good person for getting it. It's okay to not feel every single pain of labor if it's overclouding your ability to be in the moment.” Meagan: Yeah.Lauren: So anyway, that was my second VBAC story. Honestly, it was so redemptive because there was no trauma from the pain of having this wild, chaotic, primal birth. It was just peaceful and happy with all of the people. If I could have dreamt up a list of people who could have been with me, that's who it would have been. Meagan: Good. Oh, I love that you pointed that out. Well, I am so happy for you. Congrats again, 11 days ago and right now I want to thank you again so much for sharing your story. Lauren: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Do you ever look at another family or person and just wish you were living their life instead of yours? Or at least had their job? Spouse? Or vacations? Listen right now and learn how to not only embrace your own unique journey also how to make your own life truly fulfilling. "Break free from any of the self-limiting beliefs that make you think you can't have all of that because you definitely can!” (2:31), Lauren In this episode, Lauren shows you how to stop wishing and start manifesting the life you crave. It starts with inner work and knowing what genuinely fills you with joy. Listen and learn about the four areas that will help you stop wishing for someone else's life and start building the one for you! “You really can manifest anything.” – (6:13), Lauren The grass may look greener on the other side, but really, you never know the truth of what's going on! Listen to this episode and hear the steps to take to build the life you want! “Instead of adding to that to-do list, how about a to-don't list?” – (10:00), Lauren “Just by showing up for life every day, miracles happen.” – (13:33), Lauren "So you get to manifest whatever it is that you want to do and you get to live your life, not somebody else's fake life or whatever it is because it's your life that you get to live." - (21:34), Lauren In this episode: (2:24) – If your relationship isn't working, sit down and do these.  (3:30) – How to manifest your best life. (5:53) – The power of an open mind. (8:13) – Enjoying things. (8:49) – How to take the first step. (9:10)- The importance of finding out what fills you with joy. (10:00) – What type of work drives you? (10:25) – What is the pause and why it matters (11:10) – Travel, relationships, work, and friendships and how to align with these. (11:30) – The four areas that will help you stop wishing for someone else's life. (12:53) – Why this is the best medicine. (14:17) – How showing up every day creates energy toward your goals. (14:56) – How being of service heals you. (17:25) – Reach out to community. (19:29) – If you knew the story of the persons' life you're wishing for, you'd choose yours. (21:21) – Don't let social media personas guide your thoughts on the lives of others.  (21:52) – The power of journaling and meditation.  (22:00) – Simple meditation techniques.  (22:41) – Whatever it is that you want to do, you have the right to manifest and do that.  (23:30) – Life is in session; this isn't a dress rehearsal.  Resources and Links  52 Weeks of Hope https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauren-abrams-83b8b421/ https://www.52weeksofhope.com/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyLA7Rb6E0PtKBhPGu1vcjA https://www.facebook.com/52weeksofhope/ https://www.instagram.com/52weeksofhope/ https://twitter.com/52weeksofhope Get your FREE Confidence and Clarity Growth Scorecard

Lauren Maffeo is the author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Victoria talks to Lauren about human-centered design work, data stewardship and governance, and writing a book anybody can use regardless of industry or team size. Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Governance-Ground-Data-Driven/dp/1680509802) Follow Lauren Maffeo on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmaffeo/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/LaurenMaffeo). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program. We'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today. JORDYN: Thanks for having us. DAWN: Yeah, glad to be here. VICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right? JORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon. JORDYN: Wonderful. VICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round? JORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product. VICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot? DAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time. And we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage. It's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well. VICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right? DAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business? It's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process. VICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP. JORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward. You know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia. He was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing. You know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it? VICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today? DAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders. So you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you. VICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much. INTRO MUSIC: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Maffeo, Author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Lauren, thank you for joining us. LAUREN: Thanks so much for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. I'm excited to dive right into this topic. But first, maybe just tell me what led you to start writing this book? LAUREN: I was first inspired to write this book by my clients, actually. I was working as a service designer at Steampunk, which is a human-centered design firm serving the federal government. I still do work for Steampunk. And a few years ago, I was working with a client who had a very large database containing millions of unique data points going back several centuries. And I realized throughout the course of my discovery process, which is a big part of human-centered design work, that most of their processes for managing the data in this database were purely manual. There was no DevSecOps integrated into their workflows. These workflows often included several people and took up to a week to complete. And this was an organization that had many data points, as mentioned, in its purview. They also had a large team to manage the data in various ways. But they still really struggled with an overall lack of processes. And really, more importantly, they lacked quality standards for data, which they could then automate throughout their production processes. I realized that even when organizations exist to have data in their purview and to share it with their users, that doesn't necessarily mean that they actually have governance principles that they abide by. And so that led me to really consider, more broadly, the bigger challenges that we see with technology like AI, machine learning, large language models. We know now that there is a big risk of bias within these technologies themselves due to the data. And when I dug deeper, first as a research analyst at Gartner and then as a service designer at Steampunk, I realized that the big challenge that makes this a reality is lack of governance. It's not having the quality standards for deciding how data is fit for use. It's not categorizing your data according to the top domains in your organization that produce data. It's lack of clear ownership regarding who owns which data sets and who is able to make decisions about data. It's not having things like a data destruction policy, which shows people how long you hold on to data for. So that knowledge and seeing firsthand how many organizations struggle with that lack of governance that's what inspired me to write the book itself. And I wanted to write it from the lens of a service designer. I have my own bias towards that, given that I am a practicing service designer. But I do believe that data governance when approached through a design thinking lens, can yield stronger results than if it is that top-down IT approach that many organizations use today unsuccessfully. VICTORIA: So let me play that back a little bit. So, in your experience, organizations that struggle to make the most out of their data have an issue with defining the authority and who has that authority to make decisions, and you refer to that as governance. So that when it comes down to it, if you're building things and you want to say, is this ethical? Is this right? Is this secure? Is it private enough? Someone needs to be responsible [laughs] for answering that. And I love that you're bringing this human-centered design approach into it. LAUREN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I would say that ownership is a big part of data governance. It is one of the most crucial parts. I have a chapter in my book on data stewards, what they are, the roles they play, and how to select them and get them on board with your data governance vision. The main thing I want to emphasize about data stewardship is that it is not just the technical members of your team. Data scientists, data architects, and engineers can all be exceptional data stewards, especially because they work with the data day in and day out. The challenge I see is that these people typically are not very close to the data, and so they don't have that context for what different data points mean. They might not know offhand what the definitions per data piece are. They might not know the format that the data originates in. That's information that people in non-technical roles tend to possess. And so, data stewardship and governance is not about turning your sales director into a data engineer or having them build ETL pipelines. But it is about having the people who know that data best be in positions where they're able to make decisions about it, to define it, to decide which pieces of metadata are attached to each piece of data. And then those standards are what get automated throughout the DevSecOps process to make better life cycles that produce better-quality data faster, at speed with fewer resources. VICTORIA: So, when we talk about authority, what we really mean is, like, who has enough context to make smart decisions? LAUREN: Who has enough context and also enough expertise? I think a big mistake that we as an industry have made with data management is that we have given the responsibility for all data in an organization to one team, sometimes one person. So, typically, what we've done in the past is we've seen all data in an organization managed by IT. They, as a department, make top-down decisions about who has access to which data, what data definitions exist, where the data catalog lives, if it exists in an organization at all. And that creates a lot of blockers for people if you always have to go through one team or person to get permission to use data. And then, on top of that, the IT team doesn't have the context that your subject matter experts do about the data in their respective divisions. And so it really is about expanding the idea of who owns data and who is in a position of authority to make decisions about it by collaborating across silos. This is very challenging work to do. But I would actually say that for smaller organizations, they might lack the resources in, time, and money, and people to do data governance at scale. But what they can do is start embedding data governance as a core principle into the fabric of their organizations. And ultimately, I think that will power them for success in a way that larger organizations were not able to because there is a lot of technical debt out there when it comes to bad data. And one way to avoid that in the future or to at least mitigate it is to establish data governance standards early on. VICTORIA: Talk me through what your approach would be if you were working with an organization who wants to build-in this into the fabric of how they work. What would be your first steps in engaging with them and identifying where they have needs in part of that discovery process? LAUREN: In human-centered design, the discovery process occurs very early in a project. This is where you are working hand in hand with your client to figure out what their core needs are and how you can help them solve those core needs. And this is important to do because it's not always obvious what those needs are. You might get a contract to work on something very specific, whether it's designing the user interface of a database or it's migrating a website. Those are technical challenges to solve. And those are typically the reason why you get contracted to work with your client. But you still have to do quite a bit of work to figure out what the real ask is there and what is causing the need for them to have hired you in the first place. And so, the first thing I would do if I was walking a client through this is I would start by asking who the most technical senior lead in the organization is. And I would ask how they are managing data today. I think it's really important, to be honest about the state of data in your organization today. The work that we do designing data governance is very forward-thinking in a lot of ways, but you need a foundation to build upon. And I think people need to be honest about the state of that foundation in their organization. So the first thing I would do is find that most-senior data leader who is responsible for making decisions about data and owns the data strategy because that person is tasked with figuring out how to use data in a way that is going to benefit the business writ large. And so, data governance is a big part of what they are tasked to do. And so, in the first instance, what I would do is I would host a workshop with the client where I would ask them to do a few things. They would start by answering two questions: What is my company's mission statement, and how do we use data to fulfill that mission statement? These are very baseline questions. And the first one is so obvious and simple that it might be a little bit off-putting because you're tempted to think, as a senior leader, I already know what my company does. Why do I need to answer it like this? And you need to answer it like this because just like we often get contracts to work on particular technical problems, you'd be surprised by how many senior leaders cannot articulate their company's mission statements. They'll talk to you about their jobs, the tools they use to do their jobs, who they work with on a daily basis. But they still aren't ultimately answering the question of how their job, how the technology they use fulfills a bigger organizational need. And so, without understanding what that organizational need is, you won't be able to articulate how data fulfills that mission. And if you're not able to explain how data fulfills your company's mission, I doubt you can explain which servers your data lives on, which file format it needs to be converted to, who owns which data sets, where they originate, what your DevSecOps processes are. So answering those two questions about the company mission and how data is used to fulfill that mission is the first step. The second thing I would do is ask this senior leader, let's say the chief data officer, to define the data domains within their organization. And when we talk about data domains, we are talking about the areas of the business that are the key areas of interest. This can also be the problem spaces that your organization addresses. It also can have a hand in how your organization is designed as is; in other words, who reports to whom? Do you have sales and marketing within one part of the organization, or are they separate? Do you have customer success as its own wing of the organization separate from product? However your organization is architected, you can draw lines between those different teams, departments, and the domains that your organization works in. And then, most importantly, you want to be looking at who leads each domain and has oversight over the data in that domain. This is a really important aspect of the work because, as mentioned, stewards play a really key role in upholding and executing data governance. You need data stewards across non-technical and technical roles. So defining not just what the data domains are but who leads each domain in a senior role is really important to mapping out who your data stewards will be and to architect your first data governance council. And then, finally, the last thing I would have them do in the first instance is map out a business capability map showing not only what their data domains are but then the sub-domains underneath. So, for example, you have sales, and that can be a business capability. But then, within the sales data domain, you're going to have very different types of sales data. You're going to have quarterly sales, bi-annual sales, inbound leads versus outbound leads. You're going to have very different types of data within that sales data domain. And you want to build those out as much as you possibly can across all of your data domains. If you are a small organization, it's common to have about four to six data domains with subdomains underneath, each of those four to six. But it varies according to each startup and organization and how they are structured. Regardless of how your organization is structured, there's always value in doing those three things. So you start by identifying what your organization does and how data fulfills that goal. You define the core data domains in your organization, including who owns each domain. And then, you take that information about data domains, and you create a capability map showing not just your core data domains but the subdomains underneath because you're going to use all of that information to architect a future data governance program based on what you currently have today. VICTORIA: I think that's a great approach, and it makes a lot of sense. Is that kind of, like, the minimum that people should be doing for a data governance program? Like, what's the essentials to do, like, maybe even your due diligence, say, as a health tech startup company? LAUREN: This is the bare minimum of what I think every organization should do. The specifics of that are different depending on industry, depending on company size, organizational structure. But I wrote this book to be a compass that any organization can use. There's a lot of nuance, especially when we get into the production environment an organization has. There's a lot of nuance there depending on tools, all of that. And so I wanted to write a book that anybody could use regardless of industry size, team size, all of that information. I would say that those are the essential first steps. And I do think that is part of the discovery process is figuring out where you stand today, and no matter how ugly it might be. Because, like we've mentioned, there is more data produced on a daily basis than ever before. And you are not going into this data governance work with a clean slate. You already have work in your organization that you do to manage data. And you really need to know where there are gaps so that you can address those gaps. And so, when we go into the production environment and thinking about what you need to do to be managing data for quality on a regular basis, there are a couple of key things. The first is that you need a plan for how you're going to govern data throughout each lifecycle. So you are very likely not using a piece of data once and never again. You are likely using it through several projects. So you always want to have a plan for governance in production that includes policies on data usage, data archiving, and data destruction. Because you want to make sure that you are fulfilling those principles, whatever they are, throughout each lifecycle because you are managing data as a product. And that brings me to the next thing that I would encourage people working in data governance to consider, which is taking the data mesh principle of managing data as a product. And this is a fundamental mind shift from how big data has been managed in the past, where it was more of a service. There are many detriments to that, given the volume of data that exists today and given how much data environments have changed. So, when we think about data mesh, we're really thinking about four key principles. The first is that you want to manage your data according to specific domains. So you want to be creating a cloud environment that really accounts for the nuance of each data domain. That's why it's so important to define what those data domains are. You're going to not just document what those domains are. You're going to be managing and owning data in a domain-specific way. The second thing is managing data as a product. And so, rather than taking the data as a service approach, you have data stewards who manage their respective data as products within the cloud environment. And so then, for instance, rather than using data about customer interactions in a single business context, you can instead use that data in a range of ways across the organization, and other colleagues can use that data as well. You also want to have data available as a self-service infrastructure. This is really important in data mesh. Because it emphasizes keeping all data on a centralized platform that manages your storage, streaming, pipelines, and anything else, and this is crucial because it prevents data from leaving in disparate systems on various servers. And it also erases or eases the need to build integrations between those different systems and databases. And it also gives each data steward a way to manage their domain data from the same source. And then the last principle for data mesh is ecosystem governance. And really, what we're talking about here is reinforcing the data framework and mission statement that you are using to guide all of your work. It's very common in tech for tech startups to operate according to a bigger vision and according to principles that really establish the rationale for why that startup deserves to exist in the world. And likewise, you want to be doing all of your production work with data according to a bigger framework and mission that you've already shared. And you want to make sure that all of your data is formatted, standardized, and discoverable against equal standards that govern the quality of your data. VICTORIA: That sounds like data is your biggest value as a company and your greatest source of liability [laughs] and in many ways. And, I'm curious, you mentioned just data as a product, if you can talk more about how that fits into how company owners and founders should be thinking about data and the company they're building. LAUREN: So that's a very astute comment about data as a liability. That is absolutely true. And that is one of the reasons why governance is not just nice to have. It's really essential, especially in this day and age. The U.S. has been quite lax when it comes to data privacy and protection standards for U.S. citizens. But I do think that that will change over the next several years. I think U.S. citizens will get more data protections. And that means that organizations are going to have to be more astute about tracking their data and making sure that they are using it in appropriate ways. So, when we're talking to founders who want to consider how to govern data as a product, you're thinking about data stewards taking on the role of product managers and using data in ways that benefits not just them and their respective domains but also giving it context and making it available to the wider business in a way that it was not available before. So if you are architecting your data mesh environment in the cloud, what you might be able to do is create various domains that exist on their own little microservice environments. And so you have all of these different domains that exist in one environment, but then they all connect to this bigger data mesh catalog. And from the catalog, that is where your colleagues across the business can access the data in your domain. Now, you don't want to necessarily give free rein for anybody in your organization to get any data at any time. You might want to establish guardrails for who is able to access which data and what those parameters are. And the data as a product mindset allows you to do that because it gives you, as the data steward/pseudo pm, the autonomy to define how and when your data is used, rather than giving that responsibility to a third-party colleague who does not have that context about the data in your domain. VICTORIA: I like that about really giving the people who have the right context the ability to manage their product and their data within their product. That makes a lot of sense to me. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design-driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: What is it like to really bring in this culture of design-thinking into an organization that's built a product around data? LAUREN: It can be incredibly hard. I have found that folks really vary in their approach to this type of work. I think many people that I talk to have tried doing data governance to some degree in the past, and, for various reasons, it was not successful. So as a result, they're very hesitant to try again. I think also for many technical leaders, if they're in CIO, CDO, CTO roles, they are not used to design thinking or to doing human-centered design work. That's not the ethos that was part of the tech space for a very long time. It was all about the technology, building what you could, experimenting and tinkering, and then figuring out the user part later. And so this is a real fundamental mindset shift to insist on having a vision for how data benefits your business before you start investing money and people into building different data pipelines and resources. It's also a fundamental shift for everyone in an organization because we, in society writ large, are taught to believe that data is the responsibility of one person or one team. And we just can't afford to think like that anymore. There is too much data produced and ingested on a daily basis for it to fall to one person or one team. And even if you do have a technical team who is most adept at managing the cloud environment, the data architecture, building the new models for things like fraud detection, that's all the purview of maybe one team that is more technical. But that does not mean that the rest of the organization doesn't have a part to play in defining the standards for data that govern everything about the technical environment. And I think a big comparison we can make is to security. Many of us… most of us, even if we work in tech, are not cybersecurity experts. But we also know that employees are the number one cause of breaches at organizations. There's no malintent behind that, but people are most likely to expose company data and cause a breach from within the company itself. And so organizations know that they are responsible for creating not just secure technical environments but educating their employees and their workforce on how to be stewards of security. And so, even at my company, we run constant tests to see who is going to be vulnerable to phishing? Who is going to click on malicious links? They run quarterly tests to assess how healthy we are from a cybersecurity perspective. And if you click on a phishing attempt and you fall for it, you are directed to a self-service education video that you have to complete, going over the aspects of this phishing test, what made it malicious. And then you're taught to educate yourself on what to look for in the future. We really need to be doing something very similar with data. And it doesn't mean that you host a two-hour training and then never talk about data again. You really need to look at ways to weave data governance into the fabric of your organization so that it is not disruptive to anybody's day. It's a natural part of their day, and it is part of working at your organization. Part of your organizational goals include having people serve as data stewards. And you emphasize that stewardship is for everyone, not just the people in the technology side of the business. VICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's something to be said for having more people involved in the data process and how that will impact just the quality of your data and the inclusivity of what you're building to bring those perspectives together. LAUREN: I agree. And that's the real goal. And I think this is, again, something that's actually easier for startups to do because startups are naturally more nimble. They find out what works, what doesn't work. They're willing to try things. They have to be willing to try things. Because, to use a really clichéd phrase, if they're not innovating, then they're going to get stale and go out of business. But the other benefit that I think startups have when they're doing this work is the small size. Yes, you don't have the budget or team size of a company like JP Morgan, that is enormous, or a big bank. But you still have an opportunity to really design a culture, an organizational culture that puts data first, regardless of role. And then you can architect the structure of every role according to that vision. And I think that's a really exciting opportunity for companies, especially if they are selling data or already giving data as a product in some way. If they're selling, you know, data as a product services, this is a really great approach and a unique approach to solving data governance and making it everyone's opportunity to grow their own roles and work smarter. VICTORIA: Right. And when it's really the core of your business, it makes sense to pay more attention to that area [laughs]. It's what makes it worthwhile. It's what makes potential investors know that you're a real company who takes things seriously. [laughs] LAUREN: That's true. That's very true. VICTORIA: I'm thinking, what questions...do you have any questions for me? LAUREN: I'm curious to know, when you talk to thoughtbot clients, what are the main aspects of data that they struggle with? I hear a variety of reasons for data struggles when I talk to clients, when I talk to people on the tech side, either as engineers or architects. I'm curious to hear what the thoughtbot community struggles with the most when it comes to managing big data. VICTORIA: I think, in my experience, in the last less than a year that I've been with thoughtbot, one challenge which is sort of related to data...but I think for many small companies or startups they don't really have an IT department per se. So, like, what you mentioned early on in the discovery process as, like, who is the most senior technical person on your team? And that person may have little to no experience managing an IT operations group. I think it's really bringing consulting from the ground up for an organization on IT operations, data management, user and access management. Those types of policies might just be something they hadn't considered before because it's not in their background and experience. But maybe once they've gotten set up, I think the other interesting part that happens is sometimes there's just data that's just not being managed at all. And there are processes and bits and pieces of code in app that no one really knows what they are, who they're used for, [laughs] where the data goes. And then, you know, the connections between data. So everything that you're mentioning that could happen when you don't do data governance, where it can slow down deployment processes. It can mean that you're giving access to people who maybe shouldn't have access to production data. It can mean that you have vulnerabilities in your infrastructure. That means someone could have compromised your data already, and you just don't know about it. Just some of the issues that we see related to data across the spectrum of people in their lifecycle of their startups. LAUREN: That makes total sense, I think, especially when you are in a startup. If you're going by the typical startup model, you have that business-minded founder, and then you likely have a more technical co-founder. But we, I think, make the assumption that if you are, quote, unquote, "technical," you, therefore, know how to do anything and everything about every system, every framework, every type of cloud environment. And we all know that that's just not the case. And so it's easy to try to find the Chief Technology Officer or the Chief Information Officer if one exists and to think, oh, this is the right person for the job. And they might be the most qualified person given the context, but that still doesn't mean that they have experience doing this work. The reality is that very few people today have deep hands-on experience making decisions about data with the volume that we see today. And so it's a new frontier for many people. And then, on top of that, like you said as well, it's really difficult to know where your data lives and to track it. And the amount of work that goes into answering those very basic questions is enormous. And that's why documentation is so important. That's why data lineage in your architecture is so important. It really gives you a snapshot of which data lives where, how it's used. And that is invaluable in terms of reducing technical debt. VICTORIA: I agree. And I wonder if you have any tips for people facilitating conversations in their organization about data governance. What would you tell them to make it less scary and more fun, more appealing to work on? LAUREN: I both love and hate the term data governance. Because it's a word that you say, and whether you are technical or not, many people tune out as soon as they hear it because it is, in a way, a scary word. It makes people think purely of compliance, of being told what they can't do. And that can be a real challenge for folks. So I would say that if you are tasked with making a data governance program across your organization, you have to invest in making it real for people. You have to sell them on stewardship by articulating what folks will gain from serving as stewards. I think that's really critical because we are going to be asking folks to join a cause that they're not going to understand why it affects them or why it benefits them at first. And so it's really your job to articulate not only the benefits to them of helping to set up this data stewardship work but also articulating how data governance will help them get better at their jobs. I also think you have to create a culture where you are not only encouraging people to work across party lines, so to speak, to work across silos but to reward them for doing so. You are, especially in the early months, asking a lot of people who join your data stewardship initiatives and your data governance council you're asking them to build something from the ground up, and that's not easy work. So I think any opportunity you can come up with to reward stewards in the form of bonuses or in terms of giving them more leeway to do their jobs more of a title bump than they might have had otherwise. Giving them formal recognition for their contributions to data governance is really essential as well. Because then they see that they are rewarded for contributing to the thought leadership that helps the data governance move forward. VICTORIA: I'm curious, what is your favorite way to be rewarded at work, Lauren? LAUREN: So I am a words person. When we talk about love languages, one of them is words of affirmation. And I would say that is the best way to quote, unquote, "reward me." I save emails and screenshots of text messages and emails that have really meant a lot to me. If someone sends me a handwritten card that really strikes a chord, I will save that card for years. My refrigerator is filled with holiday cards and birthday cards, even from years past. And so any way to recognize people for the job they're doing and to let someone know that they're seen, and their work is seen and valued really resonates with me. I think this is especially important in remote environments because I love working from home, and I am at home alone all day. And so, especially if you are the only person of your kind, of your role on your team, it's very easy to feel insular and to wonder if you're hitting the mark, if you're doing a good job. I think recognition, whether verbally or on Slack, of a job well done it really resonates with me. And that's a great way to feel rewarded. VICTORIA: I love that. And being fully remote with thoughtbot, I can feel that as well. We have a big culture of recognizing people. At least weekly, we do 15Five as a tool to kind of give people high-fives across the company. LAUREN: Yep, Steampunk does...we use Lattice. And people can submit praise and recognition for their colleagues in Lattice. And it's hooked up to Slack. And so then, when someone submits positive feedback or a kudos to a colleague in Lattice, then everyone sees it in Slack. And I think that's a great way to boost morale and give people a little visibility that they might not have gotten otherwise, especially because we also do consulting work. So we are knee-deep in our projects on a daily basis, and we don't always see or know what our colleagues are working on. So little things like that go a long way towards making people feel recognized and valued as part of a bigger company. But I'm also curious, Victoria, what's your favorite way to get rewarded and recognized at work? VICTORIA: I think I also like the verbal. I feel like I like giving high-fives more than I like receiving them. But sometimes also, like, working at thoughtbot, there are just so many amazing people who help me all throughout the day. I start writing them, and then I'm like, well, I have to also thank this person, and then this person. And then I just get overwhelmed. [laughs] So I'm trying to do more often so I don't have a backlog of them throughout the week and then get overwhelmed on Friday. LAUREN: I think that's a great way to do it, and I think it's especially important when you're in a leadership role. Something that I'm realizing more and more as I progress in my career is that the more senior you are, the more your morale and attitude sets the tone for the rest of the team. And that's why I think if you are in a position to lead data governance, your approach to it is so crucial to success. Because you really have to get people on board with something that they might not understand at first, that they might resent it first. This is work that seems simple on the surface, but it's actually very difficult. The technology is easy. The people are what's hard. And you really have to come in, I think, emphasizing to your data stewards and your broader organization, not just what governance is, because, frankly, a lot of people don't care. But you really have to make it tangible for them. And you have to help them see that governance affects everyone, and everyone can have a hand in co-creating it through shared standards. I think there's a lot to be learned from the open-source community in this regard. The open-source community, more than any other I can think of, is the model of self-governance. It does not mean that it's perfect. But it does mean that people from all roles, backgrounds have a shared mission to build something from nothing and to make it an initiative that other people will benefit from. And I think that attitude is really well-positioned for success with data governance. VICTORIA: I love that. And great points all around on how data governance can really impact an organization. Are there any final takeaways for our listeners? LAUREN: The biggest takeaway I would say is to be thoughtful about how you roll out data governance in your organization. But don't be scared if your organization is small. Again, it's very common for people to think my business is too small to really implement governance. We don't have the budget for, you know, the AWS environment we might need. Or we don't have the right number of people to serve as stewards. We don't actually have many data domains yet because we're so new. And I would say start with what you have. If you are a business in today's day and age, I guarantee that you have enough data in your possession to start building out a data governance program that is thoughtful and mission-oriented. And I would really encourage everyone to do that, regardless of how big your organization is. And then the other takeaway I would say is, if you remember nothing else about data governance, I would say to remember that you automate your standards. Your standards for data quality, data destruction, data usage are not divorced from your technical team's production environments; it's the exact opposite. Your standards should govern your environment, and they should be a lighthouse when you are doing that work. And so you always want to try to integrate your standards into your production environment, into your ETL pipelines, into your DevSecOps. That is where the magic happens. Keeping them siloed won't work. And so I'd love for people, if you really enjoyed this episode and the conversation resonated with you, too, get a copy of the book. It is my first book. And I was really excited to work with the Pragmatic Programmers on it. So if readers go to pragprog.com, they can get a copy of the book directly through the publisher. But the book is also available at Target, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and local bookstores. So I am very grateful as a first-time author for any and all support. And I would really also love to hear from thoughtbot clients and podcast listeners what you thought of the book because version two is not out of the question. VICTORIA: Well, looking forward to it. Thank you again so much, Lauren, for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Lauren Maffeo.

Lauren Makler is Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Victoria talks to Lauren about tackling the access issues around egg freezing and donation and hoping to bring down the cost, leaving a company like Uber and starting her own business, and figuring out a go-to-market approach and what that strategy should look like. Cofertility (https://www.cofertility.com/) Follow Cofertility on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/cofertility/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/cofertility). Follow Lauren Makler on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmakler/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/laurenmakler/), or Twitter (https://twitter.com/laurenmakler). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Makler, Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Lauren, thank you for joining me. LAUREN: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for this. VICTORIA: Me too. I want to hear all about Cofertility. Can you tell me a little bit more about the platform that you built? LAUREN: Absolutely. Cofertility is really like you said; we're a fertility ecosystem. And at our core, we're enabling women to freeze their eggs for free when they donate half of the eggs retrieved to a family that can't otherwise conceive, providing support and education for everyone involved along the way. You know, we're serving two very different audiences. One side of our business, our Freeze by Co, is targeted at women between the ages of 21 and 40 who might be interested in preserving their fertility. We know that really the best time to freeze your eggs, unfortunately, is when you can least afford it. And so we've really taken on this access issue and hoping to bring down the cost on that front. And then our Family by Co business is for intended parents who need the help of an egg donor to have a child, so that could be anyone from people who struggle with infertility, or gay dads, cancer survivors, et cetera. There are a lot of people that really rely on third-party reproduction to have a family, and we think it's time to really move that industry forward, and we're doing that in a lot of ways. So that's at a high level; happy to dig in more on any part of that. But we launched in October, and things have been going well ever since. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I want to ask you more about...you mentioned the problem that you identified with when people who are most ready to freeze their eggs probably can't afford it. [laughs] But how did you really identify that problem and think I should start a company around this? LAUREN: Yeah, so it's a two-part problem. I think we see a big problem on the egg-freezing side, which is truly cost. I think we know that women are starting families later than ever. For the first time in U.S. history, the average age of women giving birth now is 30, which is the highest on record. And the experimental label from egg freezing was removed in 2012, and so it's become much more mainstream for women to do it. However, the cost to do it in the U.S. is between; I want to say, $12,000-20,000 to do it, plus yearly storage fees. And there are some women who have access to doing it through their large employer, but for the majority of people, that's just not the case. And so, for women who are really trying to prioritize their career or their education or maybe haven't found a partner yet, egg freezing can be a great option. And certainly, it's not an insurance policy by any means, and it's not a guarantee. But studies show that if you experience infertility later in life and you did freeze your eggs, you're much more likely to have a child than not. And so we see it as a great backup option. But again, cost is just truly a huge problem. And then, on the egg donation side, there are tons of families that rely on egg donation to have a baby. And I'm someone...I should mention, too, personally, years ago...I'll make a very long story very short here. Years ago, I was diagnosed with an incredibly rare abdominal disease that put into question my ability to have a biological child someday. And so, I started to look into what my options might be, and egg donation came up. And when I looked at what was happening in the space, I just couldn't believe how antiquated it was. And truly, for lack of a better word, how icky it felt. It seemed really transactional and impersonal for everyone involved. And what I realized was that it was really rooted in the stigma around egg donation that comes from cash compensation for donors. So traditionally, a donor is paid anywhere from $8,000 to $100,000 for her eggs, depending on, unfortunately, her pedigree or sometimes her heritage. Something that might be, you know, a donor that's harder to find might require more compensation the way it's done today. And so we actually saw that many women who are interested in helping another family grow through egg donation can actually be off-put by this idea of cash for their eggs. It's like, ooh, am I selling my eggs, or how do I feel about that? And it actually turns people off when it might otherwise have been something they wanted to explore. It also, I think, leaves intended parents without options that they need and really hurts the LGBTQ community that relies on egg donation for family planning. So there's a lot there. And we felt that that was something that if we remove cash compensation, perhaps it's something that really opens up the pie of women that are open to and interested in egg donation. And it also might really honor the donor-conceived person on the end of it more than what's happening today. Studies have come out that show that donor-conceived adults find the exchange of money for donor eggs to be wrong and that they can actually find it disturbing that money was exchanged for their own conception. So our model takes out cash compensation and instead gives women something that they're excited about, which is preserving their own fertility as well and really sets up everyone involved for success. VICTORIA: Yeah. I saw that in your literature, you bring this human-centered design to how you built the platform, which I think speaks to a little bit of what you're describing there. And do you think that being a woman founder yourself allows you to relate and empathize with women who have this unique perspective or a different perspective on how egg donation should work? LAUREN: Yes, egg donation and egg freezing, honestly. I think I mentioned a little bit about my own experience. Both of my two co-founders have also really, really been through it when it comes to their journeys to parenthood; both of them have been through IVF. And one of them says, you know, her biggest regret in life is that she didn't freeze her eggs at 25. And now, instead of just sitting in that, she's building a company to help other women not have that same regret. So building the company we wished existed when we were younger lets us build something that truly is empathetic and human-centered. And it's unfortunate that so much of healthcare is built and designed by people who, while maybe they have good intentions, they're not building from a place of experience, and I think reproductive health is one of those. I think women need to be involved in designing those solutions, and too often, they're not. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I want to talk more about you and your three co-founders and how quickly all this has come together. So, how did you know that your team of co-founders was the right team that these are the people you wanted to start this with? LAUREN: Yeah, it's an interesting question on so many fronts. I think there are people who spend a really long time, like co-founder dating, and use frameworks for evaluating co-founders, and the truth of it for us is that it all happened very quickly. Halle, who is the person who connected the three of us, she is one of my co-founders, and she's just someone I had long admired in digital health and women's health. And there was a day where...we peripherally knew each other. And she slid into my DMs on Instagram. Like, you never know where a great contact may come from. And she asked me what I was up to, what I was working on, and the rest is history. I told her I had just left...I spent eight and a half years at Uber and launched new markets of Uber across the East Coast and then started a business line at Uber called Uber Health, and Halle had always followed my trajectory there. And when she reached out to me, it was like, [gasps] what's it going to be about? And when it ended up that she had an idea centered around egg freezing and egg donation, given the experience I had had with my own fertility journey, it just felt like how could this not be the right thing for me to go build? So I would say gut instinct is really what it comes down to. Halle and Arielle, our third co-founder, had worked together a bit in their past lives. Halle built a company called Natalist, which is fertility, pregnancy tests, ovulation kits, and prenatal vitamins, things like that. And Arielle had actually built the first iteration of Cofertility, which was a fertility content site. And they had had that rapport already, and so that was something that I valued quite a bit. Really talking to some references and getting opinions of people you trust, but your gut, more than anything, will help you answer that question. VICTORIA: Right. And sounds like there's that shared experience and mutual respect, which goes a long way. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, that and also a shared vision. Like, if you're aligned with someone in the first month or so of talking about an idea, and when it goes from a little kernel to snowballing and becoming something real, I think it's a good signal. But if you're butting heads and disagreeing in that first really crucial time, it's probably a good idea to go in a different direction. VICTORIA: Yeah. And thinking along those lines, were there decisions that were really easy to make, and what were those? And the second part of the question is what decisions were kind of challenging to make, and what made those decisions challenging? LAUREN: It's funny. Halle was just like, "This idea is going to work, and I know it. Let's do it." I am someone who likes to see evidence before making a decision. And so I suggested in those first two weeks, like, let's get a survey together. Let's ask women, "Hey, would you actually be interested in egg donation if it meant that you got to keep half of the eggs for yourself and that there was no cash compensation involved?" So we asked a few influencers on Instagram to put out our Typeform, and within, like, I don't know, 24 hours, we had over 700 responses. VICTORIA: Wow. LAUREN: And it was a very resounding like, yes, this is something women were interested in. That gave me all the conviction I needed to go at this full force. And so I think having that proof point not only was valuable to help me get there, but it also helped investors get on board. I think some of the easy decisions were like there were certain investors that after meeting I just knew like, yes, this is someone I want to be working with over the next few years. This is someone who sees the same vision that we see. And there were a few conversations with other potential investors where I was like, you know what? That's not who I want to work with. Again, it's like, I'm very big on my instincts as it relates to people and trusting that. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And congratulations on raising your seed funding. LAUREN: Thank you. VICTORIA: And was that a stressful process? How did you feel after that happened? LAUREN: Parts of it were stressful, for sure. I think the fact that I had never done it before was stressful. I like to call myself...before this, I was an intrapreneur. I pitched the idea of Uber Health to Uber executive leadership with a deck that was very similar to what you would pitch external investors with in a scenario like this. So I had gone through a little bit of that but never before had I done anything quite like this. And so I felt very lucky to have Halle by my side through that process because it wasn't her first rodeo. But I would say trusting yourself and trusting that you can figure this out. It seems so much more intimidating than it needs to be. No one is expecting you to fully know how all of this stuff works. It's very figureoutable. VICTORIA: And what obstacles did you face in the last year that you've been working on this? LAUREN: The biggest obstacle, I would say, honestly came down to having the time to both get a company off the ground...and I like to imagine an aeroplane. You have to figure out what kind of plane you're building; then you have to find all the parts, then you have to build the plane. And then the goal upon launch, I can imagine it when I close my eyes. It is like getting the plane off the ground. And with a startup, like you can imagine, there's always a bit of building the plane while you're flying it. But doing all of that over the last year, plus finding the right people to hire, is two full-time jobs. You're sourcing incredible candidates. You're meeting with them. You're pitching them the business. But you also need to evaluate whether or not they're as great as their resume makes them seem. Then you have to convince them to join your seed-stage startup, then check their references, and then put together their offer package, and then do all of their paperwork. And it was like all of these things that I took for granted at Uber for so long of having recruiters, and having an HR team, [laughs] and all of those things that truly it is a full-time job plus building a company. So that, for me, was the hardest. And hiring just at that early stage is so, so important because you add one person, and that's like such a huge percentage of your team. So every hire has to be a great one, but you also can't wait too long to hire because then you miss your goals. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. And there's lots of uncertainty going on in the world as well. I'm sure that makes hiring extra exciting. LAUREN: Yes. I mean, exciting and also scary. I think exciting from the fact that there's great talent that's looking in a way that wasn't necessarily the case six months ago, but scary in that you have to...one of my biggest or things that keeps me up at night is like, what's the right timing to bring on new people so that your business scales appropriately but not too soon that you have people waiting around for the work to come? VICTORIA: Right, yes. And speaking of scary, I can imagine the choice to leave a company like Uber and go and start your own business was thrilling. [laughs] Can you tell me more about how that happened, or what was the order of operations there? LAUREN: I'll go back to my personal story a little bit. So I ended up with this disease that I had been diagnosed with. It was so rare and so not a lot of data on this disease that I decided it was...or these doctors were like, "You know what? Do you have a sister by any chance?" I was like, "What do you mean?" They were like, "You know, it's too risky for you to freeze your eggs just because we don't have any data on your disease. But if you have your sister freeze her eggs and donate them to you, you have them as a backup should you need them." So my incredible sister did that. And I learned a lot about the process of donation even through that experience. And went on to have three surgeries and ultimately was able to conceive without using my sister's eggs which was crazy and exciting and definitely gave my doctors a shock, which was great. And when I had my daughter, it was like this light bulb went off of, like, I have to build something in reproductive health. If I'm spending my time building something, I want it to be spent giving people who want to have a child this amazing gift that I've been given. And it was like an immediate amount of clarity. And so, after my maternity leave, I gave notice at Uber without a plan. I did not have a business idea. I did not have a job lined up. I was fortunate enough to be able to do that. But I almost think releasing myself of that is what gave me the freedom to think about other things. And it was within a day that Halle sent me that DM on Instagram without knowing I had given notice. So the universe works in mysterious ways. VICTORIA: That's wonderful and so exciting and that you just had a baby and then to be in a position where you could start a company and almost feel like I don't have enough to do; [laughter] I want to start a new company too. [laughs] LAUREN: I know. I ended up...the day we pitched our lead investors was my daughter's six-month birthday. VICTORIA: That's amazing. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: How do you balance that, like, those needs of being a mom and maybe being sleep deprived, but also starting this incredibly important business that you're passionate about? LAUREN: I mean, I'm very lucky that I have an amazing husband and sort of partner in all of this. We both are very involved in each other's work, and I highly recommend that if that's something you're open to. I think it gives you an outlet and someone to be invested in it with you but also more to talk about with your partner. [laughs] But other than that, too, I think having boundaries. So I've been really, really specific with myself and with my team about what windows of time I'm with my daughter, and I'm meticulous about it. If that means on certain days, I wake up before she does so that I can get some work done so that I have two hours with her first thing in the morning, and then I'm off between the hours of 4:00 to 7:00 so that I can spend time with her. If that means getting back online at night, I'm down to do that. I just won't compromise the time with her. And my team has been really respectful and honoring of that. And in turn, I really encourage everyone on my team to have a life outside work, whether that's with their children or their pets, or having physical activity, or things like that in their life. I think it's so important that we're not entirely defined by our startups. I think that's how people burn out really quickly. And it's like 2023, right? We don't need to be in this hustle culture where 100% of our time is focused on building our company. It's just not sustainable. VICTORIA: Right. I like that you mentioned sustainability. And that's been a recurring theme I've seen where, yeah, the hustle culture leads to burnout. It isn't sustainable. So are there other cultural or values that you impart onto your team, this new team, that you're standing up to create that sustainability in that innovation that you want? LAUREN: Yeah. I think one thing we've implemented...I would highly recommend actually Matt Mochary's CEO Curriculum. You can find it by Googling it, or I can share the link with you. And within his curriculum, he has something called The Magic Questions. And the magic questions it's like five or six questions where you ask everyone on your team, like, how would they rate their life at work? How would they rate working with the team? How's their personal life going? Like, you know, questions that you can quickly get to the root of something. But then, aside from giving a rating for each of those questions, it asks like, "How would you take it to the next level?" And what I think implementing these questions has done is it's like each time we do it, it gives the leadership team something to act on of like, "Hey, I noticed a theme amongst the employees with this set of magic questions. Like, here are some things we can address to improve that for everyone." And then there are also opportunities with each individual to say, "Hey, manager of this person, so and so called out that they're really struggling with prioritization this month, or they're really struggling with being split on these two projects. How can we help relieve that, or how can we dig in with that person so that the next time we ask these questions, that's not still an issue and that we've been able to take swift action to help improve that?" I think that really helps to just stay close to what people are feeling and thinking. And it also gives people, I think, more self-awareness of how they're doing and what they can be intentional about and address for themselves as well. VICTORIA: I like that. I'll have to look up that book and share it in our show notes as well and -- LAUREN: It's actually even all online. It's like a Google Doc you can look at. VICTORIA: That's awesome. LAUREN: And there's also a book called The Great CEO Within by Matt Mochary. But I love the book and the Google Doc version. VICTORIA: That's awesome. And it sounds like you really pulled everything together so fast. [laughs] I'm curious about your background if you feel like there were...you mentioned that you pitched inwardly to Uber. But what else about your background kind of lends you to this leadership-founder skill set? LAUREN: I mean, I joined Uber in 2013 when we had, I think, fewer than 200 employees, and we were in about 12 cities. So I very much knew startup life. And I understood this idea of sort of building the plane while you're flying it and saw that. And so I think that certainly has contributed to this. It's important when you're a founder to surround yourself with other founders and to have people that you can tap into at any point. I'm in a few different Slack groups with different founders; some are healthcare founders, some women founders, some through the VCs that we've worked with where it's really easy to say, "Hey, which payroll tool are you using?" Or "Hey, like, how do I measure employee NPS?" Or "What tools are you using for this or that?" And if you can tap into other founders, you really can move a lot faster. You don't have to write your entire employee handbook from scratch because you can borrow from other people. I think that's one of the best hacks that I would recommend. And then some of these books that I found that really do, you know, within that Matt Mochary book, it's like, here's a way to make candidate offers. Obviously, the book isn't doing the work for you, but it certainly is helping to give you a framework. And then the other piece is like, aside from your own team, I think bringing in some advisors who you trust and can go to for certain things. So two of our advisors are people I worked incredibly closely with at Uber and would trust with my life and so why not trust them with my company? So bringing them into the mix has been a real relief. And then just sort of about your community. I think it takes a village to raise...I think, actually, I would compare launching a company to having a baby. So if having a baby takes a village, so does launching a company. VICTORIA: Right. Or no founder is an island. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, exactly. VICTORIA: There's like a community, a whole group around that. I've heard, even in the episodes I've recorded, that it's a common theme among successful founders, which is heartwarming and understandable. So last question about just how it all got started. But if you could travel back in time to when you first decided you wanted to go after this opportunity, what advice would you give yourself now that you have all your present knowledge? LAUREN: I say this even to our intended parents who are grappling with this decision of using an egg donor to have a baby: remain steadfast on the vision or the end goal and be flexible on the how. So if you're an intended parent, it's like, remain flexible, like, steadfast on this idea that you want to become a parent, but be flexible on the how. With a company, I think stay true to what that ultimate vision is. So, for us, it's like help more people have babies on their own timeline and be flexible on the how, so exactly what our business model was, or exactly what our go-to-market approach would be, or exactly which product we were going to use to get there. I wish I had been a little bit more open to it being a winding road than I realized I needed to be at the beginning. So now I know that, and I'm open to any possibility as long as it gets us to the same place. VICTORIA: Right, gotcha. Yeah, well, let me ask you then about your go-to-market strategy since you mentioned it. What was unique in your strategy there, especially to target the specific consumers that you want to with this app? LAUREN: So I did follow a bit of an Uber approach, which is this idea of a soft launch. And the reason for that...so basically what we did was for the Freeze by Co side of our business, so for women who are interested in freezing, they have the option to join our split program where they donate half to intended parents and do it for free. Or they can join our Keep Program, where they freeze their eggs but keep 100% of the eggs for themselves. And we help do that along the way. However, basically, we couldn't launch Family by Co to help people find donors until we had donors. So it made sense to launch the Freeze by Co side of our business first. And I wanted the ability to market to them when we didn't have the eyes of the whole industry on us, or we didn't have tons and tons of consumers reading our press or things like that just yet. And so by soft launching with a quick beta Squarespace page, we were able to test our hypothesis, test our messaging, test our funnel, test our experience before really putting a ton of marketing spend behind it or having a ton of visibility into what we were doing. And I'm so, so grateful we did that. It led us, like, we went through probably five different versions of our funnel before we got to our public launch, and our soft launch really afforded us the opportunity to do that. So by the time we turned on the Family by Co side of our business, we already had over 50 donors on day one for them because we had already gotten these women through the funnel. VICTORIA: I love that. And that's something we talk a lot about with founders at thoughtbot is that idea of validating your product, and you talked about it with your Instagram poll that you did with influencers. And the way you're talking about your go-to-market strategy is that you wanted to make sure that even though you knew this is what you wanted to do, that you had the right approach and that you could create something that consumers actually wanted to buy and had trust in. LAUREN: Mm-hmm, totally. VICTORIA: You launched in October 2022. Are there any results post-launch that surprised you? LAUREN: I feel so grateful that our launch truly exceeded my expectations. So the interest from women in our programs has been overwhelming, like overwhelming in a good way. And then intended parents are thrilled about it. So we are making matches every day of these intended parents and these donors. And every time we make a match, I'm like, oh my God, it feels like Christmas morning. You're helping people find their path towards growing their family, and there's nothing that feels better than that. I don't think that feeling is ever going to go away, so I'm thrilled about it. But it doesn't mean that it's not hard. I think back to that analogy of like having a baby, you know, you launch this company. You hope it's received. You count ten fingers, ten toes, hope that it's received, hope that it's received. It is, but then you have the demand, and you have inbound on partnership opportunities, and you have managing the demand and handling the leads and things like that. And it's like so much more than you expect. It's like the same feeling of having a newborn of, like, [gasps] how are we going to do all this? Am I going to stay up all night to manage this? Or how do we handle what we're seeing? And so it's a lot, and figuring out what this new normal is is something that my team and I are working through every day. VICTORIA: What's wonderful is that the surprise feels even better than you thought it would. [laughs] LAUREN: Yes. VICTORIA: Wonderful. For myself, as I'm in my 30s and I'm married and, you know, I'm not thinking it about at some point in the future. But what advice do you think you want women to think about regarding their fertility at any age, like if you could talk to consumers directly like you are now? [laughs] LAUREN: Totally. Just that it's never too soon to ask those questions. And the information you need and should want is like inside your body but ready to be shared with you. So by having a consult with a fertility clinic, and that's something my team could help you with, you can learn about your prospects for having a baby and understanding how fertile you are. And just because, you know, they say, "Oh, as long as you're under a certain age, you shouldn't have a problem," doesn't mean that that's the case. One of my co-founders was 28 when she started trying to conceive and was completely blindsided that this was going to be a real struggle for her, and that breaks my heart. It doesn't need to be like that. If we're more proactive and we start asking these questions younger, then we can actually do something about it. So your fertility is really about your egg quantity and your egg quality, and both of those things are things that can be tested and measured. And I think I'm someone who loves data. And having that data, I think, can help enable you to make decisions about how you can best move forward, and for some, it might mean having a baby soon. For others, it might mean freezing your eggs. For others, it might be a waiting scenario. But that's something that you can make a more informed decision about if you have that data. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'll be sharing this episode with all of my friends and everything on Instagram as well. LAUREN: [laughs] VICTORIA: Great information to put out there. And what's on the horizon for you? What are the big challenges that you see coming up for Cofertility in the next months or year? LAUREN: I think really like scale is what we're focused on. So we've started making matches; it feels great. I want us to be prepared to do those at scale. We are seeing no slowdown in terms of people who are interested in this. And so, making sure that our team is ready and able to handle that demand is my absolute top priority. So I think scale is top of mind. I think making sure we're optimizing our experience for that is really important. So how do we make sure that everyone is having a magical, smooth experience, both through our digital experience but also if they're on the phone with someone from our team or if they're reading our materials at the fertility clinic? Like, how do we ensure that that's a great experience all around? VICTORIA: Right, that makes sense. And right now, is Cofertility specific to a certain location, or is it nationwide? LAUREN: Nationwide throughout the U.S. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And you yourself are based in California, right? LAUREN: Yes, I'm based in Los Angeles. And our team is fully remote, which has been a really exciting thing to do. We're in different time zones and have a lot of opportunity to visit people in different cities, which is nice. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great, yeah. How do you help build that culture remotely with a brand-new team? LAUREN: So, for us, I think we're very intentional about having team off sites at least twice a year. We also get together for different things like planning meetings or conferences that are really relevant to us. But I think part of it, too, is really around different touchpoints throughout the day. And we have a daily stand-up. We also are clear about which hours everyone sort of overlaps based on their time zones and making sure that people are available during those windows and then giving everyone flexibility otherwise in terms of when it makes the most sense to do their work, not being too prescriptive. And really, again, encouraging people to have a life outside work, I think, makes it so that we get the best out of our team. VICTORIA: Right, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we've got similar...at thoughtbot, we have in-person meetups once or twice a year and then go to different conferences and things together. And I think some people do miss a little bit of the office experience, but for the most part, everyone is happy to put it that way. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, it's definitely...I think for sure it has its pros and cons. I think what I love about it is that we're not limited with talent. Our team truly, like, [laughs] we have people...we have someone in Oakland, someone in Miami, someone in Charleston, someone in Boston, someone in New York City. Like, the fact that we're not limited because of geography feels great. And I admittedly really love the ability to see my daughter throughout the day and feel like I don't have to stress over how much time I'm spending commuting. So I can't see myself ever going back. VICTORIA: That's right, and LA is certainly a place to have a long commute. [laughter] And have you gotten any benefit out of local networking and community around Los Angeles or Southern California? LAUREN: Yes, absolutely. Even this Friday night, I'm going to a female founder dinner. I have something coming up in a couple of weeks with this group of women's health founders that I really love. It's so, so valuable to have people in your network that are both local and get the life that you're living while you're doing it. I think having people understand why your life is the way it is while you're building a company is really quite nice. So there are founder communities everywhere but seeking those out early is definitely helpful. VICTORIA: And then if you have a remote team, then each team member can have that local community, so you're 10x-ing. [laughs] LAUREN: Completely. VICTORIA: Yeah, wonderful. Is there anything else, anything that you think I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet? LAUREN: No. I think one thing I would encourage is when you're trying to figure out your go-to-market approach, what the strategy is going to be. I'm a big fan of getting everything really in slides. Get it in slides and bring in some people you trust. Talk to your advisors, talk to your investors, talk to your co-founders or your team and say, "Hey, these are the three ways this could go. Here are pros and cons of each one," and making a decision that way. I think when we try to do it where it's like all in someone's head, and you're not getting it out on paper with pros and cons, it can feel like a really, really hard decision. But when you see things on paper, and you're able to get the opinion of people you trust, everything is able to come to fruition much more quickly, and you can get to a decision faster. VICTORIA: Right. So you're probably really buzzing with ideas early on and finding ways to communicate those and get it so that you can practice talking about it to somebody else. Makes sense. LAUREN: Yeah. It's like, how do you socialize it? That's a great way to do it. VICTORIA: Yeah, well, wonderful. This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I appreciate you coming on the show so much, and thank you for sharing all about Cofertility with us. Any other final takeaways for our listeners? LAUREN: Thanks so much for having me. If you're interested at all in what we're doing or it would be helpful to connect, our website is cofertility.com. You can find me on Instagram at @laurenmakler, L-A-U-R-E-N-M-A-K-L-E-R. Happy to chat really about anything as it relates to building a company, or your fertility, or just questions you have in general. I would love to chat. VICTORIA: Thank you so much. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

“I hope I give you some hope.”All around, Lauren's stories are different. Her birthing journey includes Asherman's syndrome, infertility for over 10 years, two rounds of IVF treatments (each with only one viable embryo), a miscarriage, placenta accreta, and significant hemorrhaging after her first Cesarean delivery. Lauren miraculously got pregnant naturally with her second son. She was committed to having a VBAC even with her complicated medical history. When her water broke at 32 weeks, Lauren made her desires known loud and clear to every person who entered her birthing space that a Cesarean was not an option. Sure enough, Lauren was able to successfully VBAC with no signs of placenta accreta or hemorrhaging. After years of so much heartache and holding onto hope, Lauren was finally able to see one miracle unfold after another.Additional linksThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is where you are at, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Meagan and we have our friend, Lauren, today. You guys, she is currently in Vietnam and it is 4:10 a.m. where she is recording. I cannot believe that she is up and ready to record an episode. We are so grateful for her for being with us today. She has a lot of great things in her story, a lot of great things that sometimes we don't talk about or know of. There's a certain thing in her story where I hadn't even ever heard the word before until I saw it in her story. So I can't wait to dive into her story and have her tell more about all of the things about her story.Review of the WeekMeagan: Of course, we have a Review of the Week so I will read that and we will dive right in. This is from saraalbinger and she says, “One month ago, I had a successful VBAC induction just 18 months after a Cesarean section. I almost called to schedule a repeat on my due date because I was so scared. Then I found your podcast and listened to it for two days straight. It gave me the courage to go through with the induction and I am so glad I did. I hope more people find this as a resource.”She actually emailed us, which is awesome. Congratulations, Sara, on your VBAC. So happy for you. Like I said, she emailed. You can email us your reviews if you would like or if you have a moment, maybe push “pause” really quickly and jump onto your podcast whether it be Apple or Google Play, and leave us a review. We would really appreciate it and again, we always read one on the episodes, so your review might be next. Lauren's storyMeagan: Okay. Lauren, I'm so excited to have you. Seriously, I cannot believe that you are up. I don't know if I could get my tushy out of bed at 4:00 a.m. to record a podcast. I'm so grateful. Lauren: It is early. Meagan: Yes, it is so early. Oh my gosh. We just talked about it. You just had a baby not long ago, so you're not only up at 4:00 a.m. but probably sleep-deprived within those few hours that you did get to sleep. So seriously, thank you so much for being with us today.  Lauren: No problem, I'm excited to share my story. Meagan: Well, I'm excited to hear it. I would love to turn the time over to you. Share all of the amazing things. You have had such a journey that has led you here today. Lauren: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is a wonderful opportunity for me to go back and remember what has happened to me over the last couple of years. My story started, I feel like, way back when. I was a Montessori teacher and at that point, I knew exactly what I wanted out of my birth at the age of 18 or 19 years old. I wanted a water birth. I wanted all-natural and I wanted to have all my kids by the time I was 25. Anyways, that didn't happen. I got married. I got married when I had just turned 23. Kids did not happen right away. My 25th birthday was the most depressing birthday I've ever had. It turns out I was struggling with some infertility there. At that time, I had sought some, I don't know. I will tell you that I pondered on it and it just didn't feel right. The time to take care of our infertility didn't feel right, so we ended up moving our family abroad. My husband and I taught English abroad, then we came back to America. We just so happened to live in Boston. We had some contacts there, but we felt, I don't know the right word, we felt very inspired to move to Boston. We didn't start working on the family thing right away because you have to have insurance for that but on the east coast, they pay for infertility treatment. If you have insurance, it's covered. I didn't know that at the time. Meagan: That's amazing. For real?Lauren: Yes, for real.  Meagan: I need to tell my sister who just moved to Boston and is having fertility issues. Lauren: Oh my goodness. Yes, the insurance coverage is amazing. So then I started finding out about other people who had moved there just to get the insurance just to seek infertility treatment. Meagan: Wow, cool. Lauren: Yeah, it was amazing. Exactly. I feel like the right people were put in our path at the right time. They shared the doctors and I was like, “Okay, let me go to your doctor. Okay.” So then pieces started to fall into place to figure out, “What the heck is wrong with me?” I think it had been thirteen years at that point in time of not stopping from having children. Everything was the way it is. So I go and they do this huge check-up on me. My doctors just couldn't believe the long list of all the crap that was wrong with me especially because I was in my thirties.I ended up having what was called Asherman syndrome. It's adhesive. It's scar tissue and they can exist in the cervix or in the uterus. Mine was everywhere. I was 100% scarred over through my cervix and my uterus. It took multiple surgeries to try to remove it. It's called hysteroscopies. Here's the miracle here. Asherman syndrome is not well known. It's still, “Oh, hush-hush.” A lot of women hear the word “adhesive” and that's exactly what it is. It's the scar tissue that's in the uterus and it usually happens after D&C or if you've had a miscarriage, there's a percentage of women who scar over. There are specific doctors out there that will take care of it. One is in Boston and the other one lives in California. I got to see that very specialized doctor and that was just a huge miracle. I felt like I was being taken care of. So we went there and my scar tissue was just so severe. I'm pretty sure I still have it. It's something that doesn't really go away, but it was blocking my tubes. That, and we had a diminished ovarian reserve, so my eggs were like I was a 44-year-old woman. I think I was 32 at this time and going through all this. I'm like, “My eggs are old. I'm old.”Then they did a biopsy of my uterus. It showed that it was inactive.Meagan: What?Lauren: It was menopausal. I was like, “So I've gone through menopause and here I am.” It turns out that if you don't have a period for over a year, you're considered in menopause. I didn't realize that because I hadn't had one in seven years at this point. Meagan: Wow. I didn't even know that either. I mean, I didn't have a period but I have an IUD, so I'm guessing that's a little different, right? Lauren: Mhmm, yeah. Meagan: I didn't know that. Lauren: Yeah, I had no idea. I was learning so much so quickly. There were a lot of emotions. I cried and cried because I felt like my journey of having children was completely over. I had a very slim chance of having a baby and so I was like, “Okay. We're doing this. I'm jumping head-in.” So I jumped and with IVF, I had only one good embryo out of my first round. It ended up in a miscarriage. It was nonviable and it ended up that it had something wrong with the chromosomes in it. They did some testing. This is where I feel like, “Oh, I had this journey.” Here it comes now. With IVF, they watch you and so after my two-week wait, I had a positive test. Okay. Then, they watch it grow. Mine wasn't growing, so then I had my ultrasound. They were like, “Oh, this isn't right. There is no heartbeat. This doesn't even look right. Whatever.” I'm bawling my eyes out because it's really hard.They waited an extra week until I was seven weeks when I went in for my D&E. The doctor told me it was because of my Asherman's that it was going to cause a huge, big problem. So he goes in. He scoops it out. That's the way I like to think of it. He just scoops it out and he's done. Lo and behold, my HCG levels were still the same, if not going up. I was still feeling very sick. The next two or three days later, I'm like, “Something is really wrong. Something is really wrong.” I went back and they drew my blood. Come to find out, my levels are still going up. I'm like, “Something is wrong.” I went back to my Asherman syndrome doctor. They did an ultrasound and then they did an in-office, I was wide awake, hysteroscopy. They took little scissors and they tried to go in and take out what they could see. Meagan: What?! This is giving me chills right now thinking about going through that. Lauren: Uh-uh. It was so painful. Meagan: Oh my goodness.Lauren: It was so bad. I'm just bawling my eyes out on this table and they were like, “This is too much.” I was like, “Yeah. This is too much.” I was scheduled for surgery the next day and that's when I was told about my accreta. That teeny, tiny little sac had grown into my lining. Again, my Asherman's syndrome was worse than the first time I went, which is saying something. I had a few more surgeries after that one just to clean it up. It took a long time, a lot of hormone therapy, and a ton of estrogen to try to get my uterus back up and running. They called it “jump starting” because I was still not having periods. They were forcing them through medication. Anyway, it was just a crazy time of my life. The second round of IVF was maybe six to nine months later. Again, I only had one little embryo. It turned out to be my son. At the time, we didn't know the sex of our child until he was born, so it was a really fun surprise. I was so excited. Well, and surely hesitant because you are like, “Oh my goodness, is this going to stick? What's going to happen?” He stuck and he continued to grow. His percentile growths every ultrasound were still 13% and 15%, so I had a small baby. It always worried me. We got flagged for genetic testing. We got flagged and we got called. It was like, “You've got to come in right now. We've got to do this ultrasound.” The worry that comes over your face is like, “Oh my gosh.” You just start breaking down and immediately crying. We drove straight to the hospital to do a two-hour-long ultrasound of just laying on the table. They don't talk to you, by the way, in this clinic. They just look. They look. They look. They look, and then at the very end, they may say something or you have to go to your doctor and your doctor will tell you but the ultrasound tech does not say anything to you.So it's just nerve-wracking. We ended up seeing a genetic counselor right after who then gave us the results of, “Oh, it's not anything. You're fine.” You had a little bit of leakage that could have caused this. It's not Down syndrome. You're okay. I was like, “Whew.” So other than that, my pregnancy was pretty normal. We got a doula right away, super grateful for her, and then my baby just wouldn't turn. He wanted to be feet down. I don't know how to explain it. He just wanted to be breech. We were doing our birthing classes. I just remember the doula who was doing them was like, “Well,” I don't know I was probably at 30 weeks. She was like, “Oh, he should really be head down.” I'm like, “Really? At this point, he should really be?” She was like, “Yeah. You really need to get on it more.” I was like, “Okay, I need to get on it.” At that point, I was like, “Okay.” So my doula and I worked on Spinning Babies. I spent so much time upside down every day. I was on an ironing board. I was doing all of these things for Spinning Babies. You buy the stuff. All of the stuff, I bought it. It wasn't working, so then someone was like, “Okay, you should go to the acupuncturist and do this epoxy–”. I was like, “Okay.” So then I'm burning this thing on the outside of my pinky toe on my right foot for 20 minutes. Meagan: Mhmm. Bladder 06.Lauren: Yeah, but I'm very pregnant, so to bend over for 20 minutes to do one toe and to do 20 minutes on the other toe was excruciating. I did it every morning and every night. I was like, “Okay. This is a lot. I am very dedicated to spinning this baby.” That didn't work, so I started chiropractic. I started seeing a chiropractor during my last month of pregnancy. I saw her every other day, and then I started seeing her every day. Again, nothing, and then I just got this gut feeling. It was, “Your baby's going to be born the way he needs to be born. You just need to accept that and you need to go with it.” When that happened, it just clicked in my brain. I was like, “Okay. I can still have a birth plan for a Cesarean. I can still do this and that's okay.” But that switch when you have planned something and you believe in something so hard– to make that switch in your brain, it's so difficult. I still was holding hope that somehow this baby is going to flip. They wanted to try an inversion at 37 weeks. I was like, “No,” because they were like, “If you spin the baby in the hospital and it works, then you are having a baby. If it doesn't work, you are still having a baby.” I was like, “Oh, then I'm waiting.” I'm very grateful. So we went in on my scheduled day with my big, long list of everything I wanted for my Cesarean which was wonderful. My doctor was very supportive and she made sure everything on my list got crossed off. I got to completely watch my baby being born, the surgery, and everything which was really unique for me. I didn't realize I was going to get emotional about my little Oden. Anyway, I just remember laying there and having my surgery. My husband was right beside me and my doula was also in the room with her essential oils. He comes out and it was announced that he was a little boy. He gets cleaned up. My husband goes over. My husband gets to do skin-to-skin with him. It was such a beautiful birth. It's like, I don't regret it at all. I'm just like, “I did everything I could.” Once you see that little baby, he was just, oh wow. He was on my husband's chest and he was rooting and making rooting noises. My doctor and everyone in the room just stopped. They were like, “We've never seen this before.” We've never seen a baby come out Cesarean and literally be banging his head on a chest wanting the breast. I knew right away. I was like, “That's my baby. He's hungry. He knows where it's at.” My doula was really excited. So anyways, I remember at this point that my doctor mentioned something about blood. “Oh, there's a lot of blood,” but I was dismissive because I had this cute baby over here rooting. It wasn't even until after I was in recovery and I started breastfeeding that my doctor came in and told me that I had hemorrhaged. I had an MFM who specialized in accreta and percreta and all of these things because I was just so worried that if I had a seven-week sac that stuck to my uterus, then what is it going to look like at full-term? I had done all of this research and I was prepared to lose my uterus with this birth. It didn't happen. I just felt so blessed. I felt so blessed that I got to keep it and that my child was born at full term. I just remember, “I can't wait for baby number two.” Anyway, I enjoyed this birth so much and him so much. The hemorrhage only added to my list. I had forgotten about it until baby number two and then it starts adding on, right?Okay, miscarriage, baby number one, baby number two comes and I really wanted my VBAC. I don't necessarily– my pregnancy was baby number two. I had accepted a job that paid for my insurance and I was going to go back to my doctors, but I ended up getting pregnant before. I mentioned before that I stopped having periods sometime in my twenties and went through menopause. I had gotten the COVID vaccine and gotten both shots. After my second shot, 17 days later, I started the first period I had in years and years and years and years and years and years. I was so shocked. I had no idea what was happening to my body. I was like, “This can't be happening to me. This is so weird and so foreign to me.” I remember just calling my doctor like “What is going on?” She was like, “You are not the only woman to report this. It's okay, just go with it. Track it. Let's see if we can have a natural pregnancy. Let's see if you can get pregnant naturally.” I'm like, “Wow. This is insane.” So, in the third month, I was pregnant. I just couldn't believe it. Meagan: Wow. Lauren: I'm like, “But my eggs are crap.”Meagan: Wow, wow. Lauren: Yeah! I'm like, “My eggs are crap. Everything is crap, right?” She's like, “Lauren, we are just going to go with it.” I'm just like, “Okay. Just going with it.” So yeah. Third month, boom, and I was pregnant. And yeah, wow. But it started off–Meagan: I'm sure. Yeah. Lauren: You just don't believe it. After you've been through everything, you don't believe it. So I just couldn't believe it. I started having a lot of pain and this is where I was like, “I'm going to lose this baby.” I just had this gut feeling like something was really wrong. I ended up going to the emergency room the day I took a pregnancy test. I was going. I was like, “It had better not be ectopic. I need to make sure this is in the right place. There's something going on.” They're like, “You're not pregnant.” That's what they told me. I was like, “Okay.” This little, dinky hospital. They did a urine test and they told me I wasn't pregnant. I literally had to tell them, “Listen. I've been through infertility treatment and I know that you could do a blood test to tell me if I'm pregnant or not. Come on.” And so then they do a blood test but in the meantime, it's been an hour and I'm a mess. I am crying. I am just an emotional, crazy mess. They come back and they're like, “Oh yeah, your levels are 100, so most likely, you're going to lose this baby. It's very early.” They already put this on me. So then they gave me a doctor because I am new to this facility because, sorry. I had moved from Boston to Connecticut to work and buy a house during the pandemic. So I am in little Podunkville with Podunk doctors. There's nothing wrong with Podunk doctors, sorry! But it's just different when you go from downtown Boston, top-notch to country, okay?So we were there and he kept telling me that my levels weren't rising. They weren't doubling. They are supposed to double and they weren't. Baby wasn't growing and nothing was happening for two weeks. So they did an ultrasound, but no heartbeat, nothing. There was something there, but they were like, “Lauren, we will give you another week before we do something.” I'm just a mess. I'm a complete mess. They drew my blood again and my progesterone levels were decent, but my pregnancy hormone was just not growing.And so a week or two weeks went by, I can't remember. I had a heartbeat. I just remember feeling so relieved. I looked at the doctor. I was like, “I'm never going to see you again. I'm so sorry, but I'm never going to see you again. I'm going to go to the best of the best.” So I jumped right back to my MFM up in Boston. The first thing out of my mouth was, “Okay, I'm pregnant. Will you support me with a VBAC?” And she said, “Yes.” She said, “Yes, 100%.” This was the kicker. She was like, “But Lauren, you have to know that because of all your issues, we are aiming for a vaginal birth. You can't sit there and go, ‘I want it to be unmedicated.'” She was like, “What we are aiming for is a vaginal birth.”I was like, “Okay.” And then I go home, I'm like, “I want an unmedicated birth!” I'm like, “I don't care.”Meagan: You're like, “Joke's on you guys, I'm going to do that anyway.”Lauren: Yes, exactly. So my pregnancy is progressing. Baby is head down the whole entire time. I'm super excited. I remember at 28 weeks, I had this very distinct feeling come over me that I was going to have this baby early. I didn't know what that meant. So I was like, “Okay.” So around week 30, I started prepping my house. I bought all of the baby things, got baby things out, just little things like that. In the meantime, I'm teaching kindergarten, I'm still working full time. I still have a toddler now and I'm just resuming life.This is when I really started hitting hard on The VBAC Link. I was listening to every podcast every chance I got. I was listening on my lunch break just to prepare myself. I did a class with you guys. There was an OB that was there. I had a ton of questions that I got answered, so that was really wonderful. I just really appreciate this podcast being there. I feel like that's why I really want to share because it was just so helpful, but no one had anything like what I had gone through. I'm like, “Maybe that means something.” I'm like, “Am I crazy? Can I do this?” sort of a thing. Anyway, so I didn't feel very prepared. My 32-week doctor's appointment was on a Friday. I drove to Boston which was an hour and a half away from where I live. It was a devastating doctor's visit. My sweet little baby boy was not growing. I had what is called, I have it in here because I'm like, “What? I forget everything.” It was fetal growth restriction.Meagan: Was it IUGR? Intrauterine growth restriction?Lauren: Yeah, but they called it FGR here. It was like fetal growth restriction, yes. Meagan: FGR, fetal growth restriction, yeah. Lauren: Thank you for that. I forget all of the things. And so then I was like, “Okay. Tell me exactly what that means.” My baby was measuring in the 1st percentile. So then she goes back and she was like, “Well, he's barely been over a 10th percentile this whole time. He's always been very, very small.” He was in the 10th and the 13th. I was like, “Where do we need to be to get out of this?” She was like, “You have to be at 10% to not have this label.” I was like, “That's not going to happen, is it?” She was like, “No, I'm sorry.” And I'm like, “Oh man.”So at this point in time, I was like, “Okay.” I was visiting her every week. I had her visit plus I had a blood draw, plus I had an ultrasound, so now it was moving up to three visits a week and I was having to drive an hour and a half. I'm like, “This is not going to be sustainable. I cannot work full time and do this.” I had made all of my appointments for that next week. I go home that Friday and then Saturday morning at 3:00, my toddler wakes up and I go in to tend to him. A big thing about FGR was that I had to count my movements. I wasn't feeling my baby move because he was so small that there were times that I didn't feel pregnant. I was like, “This is really weird.” It was one of those times when I was up at 3:00 a.m. and I noticed that there were zero movements. I'm like, “Okay, maybe he's asleep.” So I spent time with my toddler, put him back to bed, go back to my room and I'm starting to feel him move. So then I start kick counting, kick counting, kick counting, and then my toddler gets up again. I'm like, “Oh my goodness, you've got to be kidding me.” He comes into my room. He wants to snuggle, so I let him in my bed and he's holding me. I'm holding him and my husband gets out of bed. He doesn't do that. Anyway, next thing I know, I just feel this gush between my legs and I'm like, “What the heck? I am not prepared for this. This is not okay.” We have Google in my home, so I was like, “Okay, Google. Broadcast.” I'm screaming at the top of my lungs, “My water just broke! You have to come right now!” My husband runs in and he's freaking out. I don't know. It was a really wacky picture in my mind. He has his arms and legs sprawled out like, “What's going on?” I'm like, “Take our son. Take our son and get me a cup because this is gushing out and I don't know what to do.” It was crazy. I started contracting, but they weren't painful at all. They were like Braxton Hicks. My belly was tightening and then it was just gushes of water. I was like, “This is so crazy.”So I immediately called my doctor. This was the part that made me nervous because here I am preparing for a VBAC and the doctor immediately said, “You need to get to the hospital right now. You will have a repeat Cesarean and we will get this baby out. Something is wrong.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: I immediately started crying. Yes. Meagan: Scary. So scary. Lauren: Oh, 100%. The good thing is that I had 40 minutes for someone to drive to be with my son to ponder, sit down, and try to process this. Meanwhile, I'm walking around the house with a cup between my legs trying to catch all the water that is coming out of me. My husband and I were talking back and forth like, “This is not anything I had ever ever ever thought of.” I'm like, “Okay. I'm going to go in. I'm going to have a VBAC.” And so we both agreed that we were going to be open to what the doctors were saying. “This a bunch of learning. We are on a learning curve now. This is not on our terms. It's on this baby's terms. We are now open-minded and learning.” It took us an hour and nine minutes to get to the hospital. We passed five policemen. One actually passed us. We were way speeding. We were easily doing 90-100 the whole way. No one pulled us over, thank goodness. It turned out to not be that much of an emergency. We got there and the first thing that they did was they took me back to confirm that I broke my water. I was like, “You guys can't see the stuff gushing out of me?” I'm like, “Is this not water?” They're like, “Well, it could be urine.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no.” I know what urine is. This is not urine. They were laughing because I was like, “This is not pee, or else I have been continually peeing on myself for two and a half hours now.”And so anyway, I'm like, “Okay, whatever.” And then they were like, “Yes. Okay. This is the fluid.” They came to my room and they talked to me about everything. PPROM is what it's called. It's a premature rupture of membranes. Now, I was a PPROM. Meagan: Yeah. PROM is just premature rupture of membranes but PPROM is premature meaning that the baby is before 37 weeks. Lauren: Exactly. Meagan: Premature premature rupture of membranes. Lauren: It was happening way too early. And because I was 32 weeks, they weren't going to stop it, so I did not receive any magnesium or anything like that to stop it which I was kind of grateful for because after I read, I was like, “Oh, I don't want that in my body.” It burns like fire. But they did start me on penicillin and steroids and all of these things because they wanted the steroids for the baby's lungs. The penicillin was because the risk of infection goes significantly higher when you have PPROMd or when you have PROM'd early because now I'm just sitting there with open stuff and it's easier to get an infection.They refused to check me, which was nice. They would not check my cervix to see how dilated I was or anything like that, but I do remember at the very beginning, she guesstimated that I was about a 1, so it was nothing. And so I sat there. They were like, “You're being admitted to the hospital. You will be here until you have your baby. Since you are 32 weeks, we will induce you. If you get to 34 weeks, you will be induced and you will have your baby.” The reality was that they go through my chart and this is where my past kicked me in the butt. They were like, “Okay, you have a chance of accreta. You have hemorrhaged with your previous Cesarean. You have to put in your mind that most likely you are going to have another Cesarean.” I was like, “No, I'm not.” This whole entire time, I was like, “No, I'm not.” I was like, “No, I'm not. I'm having a VBAC and that's it.” I kept telling every doctor that came into my room. I was like, “Listen, I'm having a VBAC.” I was like, “I'm having a VBAC. It's happening, so I don't even want to discuss another Cesarean unless it really gets to that point. I don't want to discuss it.” I was like, “I want to discuss how I can have this baby vaginally. That's what I want.” They were very supportive. I'm just so grateful and they were just like, “Yeah. Okay. This is awesome. This woman has opinions.” And so every new resident– I was at Brigham and Women's Hospital. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.Meagan: You can totally share. You can totally share. Lauren: Okay. Okay, so it's a learning hospital. You have a lot of residents and interns. I don't know exactly what you call them all. Every morning, there were ten doctors that would visit my room a few times a day. It was a lot of doctors. Anyway, so Wednesday comes and before that, they were like, “Okay, listen. You're either going to have this baby within 48 hours or it's going to be a week or two. It's either one or the other. We don't really have people in the middle.”Guess what? I was in the middle, so whatever. Meagan: Way to be different.Lauren: Right? All around, I'm different. The thing that really worried me is that I was like, “Okay, I want a VBAC,” but at the same time, I had these NICU doctors who were right there on my case like, “Okay. Here are the chances of this. Here are the chances of this. Your baby might be dealing with all of these different things.” Anyway, they were updating me every day on where my baby's development was for that day and what could be possibly wrong with him when he was born. “Oh, by the way, our NICU is full. We don't have any beds. So if you go into labor, we will be transferring you to a different hospital with your child,” or however it works. I'm like, “What? Are you serious?” They're like, “Yep. We're full and so is the hospital next to us, so it will be the hospital down the street.” I'm like, “Oh wow. This is incredible.” Anyway, so right then and there, I started praying, “Okay. Listen to me. If I'm going to go into labor, it better be the day that someone gets sent home.” It's got to work out. It's got to work out. It did, by the way. It worked out. On Wednesday, I started to have more pain. It was like, “Okay. I'm still contracting by the way. I keep having what I call Braxton Hicks contractions because they were not painful. It was just that my whole belly would tighten and my water would continue to spew out. That's the best way I can say it. I remember distinctly that I woke up at 1:00 in the morning on Wednesday and I started having pain. I called my nurse right away and I was like “Listen, they shifted. My contractions have shifted now, but they are still 10-14 minutes apart.” We just kept an eye on it. In the meantime, every time I have a contraction, my baby's heart disappears. They can't find him. I'm like, “Okay. Baby, cut this out.” So when that happens, guess what they start talking about? They talk about a Cesarean. They're like, “Oh, Lauren. His heart rate is really dipping really low. We are going to end up. You need to prepare.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not preparing.” And so I finally get up out of my bed. I've been in a bed this whole entire time. A friend came and visited me. It was 1:00 in the afternoon at this point. I was standing up during the whole visit which was the most I had stood in two or three days. I'm starting to have regular contractions. They were easy, 4-6 minutes apart, somewhere around there. They started being really painful and I had to breathe through them. I'm this way. I'm like, “Listen. I'm not going to call my nurse in here because she's just going to prepare me for a Cesarean.” So I go for an hour with my friend and my friend is like, “Lauren, you really need to call your nurse.” I'm like, “Fine. You leave. I'll call my nurse.” So I called my nurse and, sorry I'm laughing. She's freaking out because she is like, “Why didn't you call me?” I was like, “Listen, I didn't call you because I don't want to have a Cesarean.” They called the doctor. He guesstimates and he says I'm about a 1 or a 2. I haven't changed much. Now, they have increased and they're back to back. I could not. I was like, “What? A natural birth? I wanted that? That's crazy.” They wouldn't let me out of my bed because of the heart rate and everything that was going on with the baby, so I was stuck and confined to my bed. I was just holding the railing and turned to my side. Every contraction was worsened by a million because my nurse was like, “Listen, if you don't want a Cesarean, I have to find the heart rate of this baby.” And so she is literally, in the middle of my contractions, I'm screaming and she has got that monitor and she is searching for the baby's heart rate to prove that he is okay. This continues and she calls the doctor back in here because my contractions were literally on top of each other for 2-3 minutes. It was so intense. I really didn't feel like I had time to breathe. I was like, “Listen. I am having this baby. I am going to have this baby.” My doctor– he's not really my doctor. He's the resident of my doctor. He walks back in and he basically tells me to suck it up and that lots of moms go through this. I'm not having this baby. He will check me for real this time. So he goes in and I'm about 3 centimeters dilated, but I'm 90% effaced. He was like, “Oh. Hmm. This could change. We're going to send you to labor and delivery, but don't put it in your mind that you're having a baby today because this could stall.” He was like, “I've seen this stall so many times.” I was like, “How would this stall? I'm in so much pain.” He was like, “No. This could still stall.” I'm like, “Okay, whatever. I've PPROMd. I have no idea what I'm talking about. This is all new to me. Okay, fine. This can stall. This labor can stall, sure. Okay.”I am put in labor and delivery and my labor nurse looks at me. She was like, “You're going to be having this baby in a couple of hours. I don't know what your doctor is talking about.” She is bad-mouthing him so hard. She's like, “I don't know what he's talking about. This is insane.” She was like, “Listen, I know. I don't want you to be infected,” but she was like, “I am going to check you right now. There is no way that with the amount of pain you are in and your contractions are on top of each other.” She was like, “I'm going to check you. I'm going to call the anesthesiologist. We're going to get him in here. We're going to get you an epidural,” because I was in so much pain. Anyway, I can't believe it. This is where I'm like, “I wanted a natural birth?” So my anesthesiologist comes in right after my doctor had come in again to check me. He was like, “It's only been 30 minutes. Stop paging me.” Those were his exact words. “Stop paging me. It's only been 30 minutes.” And now, I've progressed to a 5. His eyes got really wide because before that, he yelled at my anesthesiologist, “You're not needed here. You need to leave. This is not happening,” like that. My nurse was like, “What?!”And then he checked me and he was like, “Umm, this is happening. I'm so sorry. Anesthesiologist, please come back in the room.” He's yelling, “Please come back into the room. Help her! This is happening and it's happening very, very fast.” They were like, “Where's your husband?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, my husband's not with me.” At this point, I'm panicking. He's not even with me.Meagan: Oh no!Lauren: Yeah and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I've got to call him right now.” They were like, “Call him.” So I call him. I was like, “Listen, I know I called you an hour ago and things were progressing slowly, but you have to be here now.” He was like, “Lauren, I've got an hour and a half.” I was like, “Permission to speed. Permission to put your cute little sports car to work. Go fast.” He was there in 45 minutes. He showed up. They were like, “Hold the baby.” There are the funniest things that you remember. It's like, “Okay.” My epidural half-worked. I was still having pain, but it was this weird floating area of, “I can feel pain on my left side, but not on my right side,” and so it was this weird state of where I was. I'm actually kind of grateful for it because I still got that natural birth feeling that I wanted. I still very much felt the ring of fire and the birth and at the same time, I feel like the hard contractions were taken away.So it was a nice in-between that I felt. But as soon as my husband got there, my labor nurse was like, “Listen, Lauren. I just need to tell you that because of your long list,” here it comes again, “because of this long list, you might end up with a Cesarean. I want you to know that they are preparing for it.” This time now, I'm uncontrollably crying because this is not what I wanted. She was like, “I need to also tell you something else.” I was like, “What?” She was like, “There are going to be probably 12-15 people in this room as you give birth.” I was like, “What? How many people?”Meagan: Why? Why so many people?Lauren: Exactly, because it was a learning hospital. Meagan: Oh, okay. Lauren: My doctor had his two doctors and my labor nurse had three assistants, and then I had the NICU team for the baby, and that's what it was. So I had the NICU doctor plus his three assistants or residents, and then they brought people in to watch me have this VBAC after accreta and after hemorrhaging. I wanted to be fully present for this birth. I told the nurse, “I want to grab my baby and I want to pull my baby out. That's what I want. I want to pull him out. I want him out on my chest.” They were like, “Lauren, the realization of that happening– if he cries, sure. If he doesn't cry, we are so sorry. We have to take him. We have to.” I'm praying. Long story short, the baby comes straight out. I mean, he's 4 pounds. They estimated him to be 3 pounds, but he was 4 pounds. He comes out. I got to watch the whole thing with the mirror. I had one of those resident people taking pictures the whole time, so I got really good pictures of my birth and here he is. He's screaming, so he has healthy lungs. I was just so happy that he had healthy lungs. I was like, “Okay. We're good.” Anyway, I got to hold him for about one minute while we did delayed cord clamping, and then I had to hand him over. I didn't get to see him again for hours and hours which was really hard, but I had done it. I had done it and I had my VBAC. It was successful. I'm just so grateful through my whole entire story that it had gone the way I really wanted it to go. I feel like I was prepared for so many things. Right after he was born, they were like, “Okay, the placenta is not stuck, Lauren. There's no accreta. Check. Lauren, you're not hemorrhaging. Check. Now, we just have to stitch you up.” I remember him taking way too long to stitch me up, but I just remember what I always wanted. I was able to jump out of my bed. The epidural got turned off and I was able to get up and start walking within an hour and a half. That's the whole reason for me. I want this vaginal birth, but I want to be present whereas, for my Cesarean, it took me almost a full 12-24 hours before I could really get out of my bed. It's just very different and I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful for the information that I received through this podcast to help me get the birth story that I wanted. I'm hoping that my story can help some of you out there that are listening that maybe struggle with infertility and any of the same things I did. I hope I give you some hope. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. So many miracles in your story. So many miracles.Lauren: So many. Meagan: From moving to Boston and finding the doctor that you did find because that in itself, there are so few doctors out there who even know much about this, and then to go through all that you did to get pregnant and then trusting that, “Okay. This baby is just wanting to be this way and this is the journey.” And then again, not getting pregnant and what a crazy thing that all of a sudden, you are pregnant after months and then years!Lauren: Mhmm. They did a pathology. They did testing on my placenta to see why this all happened and why I PPROMd. It was because, I don't even know what they are called, but the placenta has the phalanges that attach to the uterus and it pumps the vitamins and nutrients in. Mine were scarred over and adhesive. They had adhesives and they were swollen. He wasn't getting the proper nutrition that he needed, which was why he came early. I can't help but think, “Oh, maybe that's my Asherman's.” They tell me it's because of COVID because I had COVID.Meagan: That's another question I was going to ask. Have you had COVID? From what I have heard, even the vaccine, which is interesting how yours is linked to the opposite with starting your period. They are saying that COVID vaccines are related to changing cycles and things like that. But sometimes, if they get the vaccine, then they go into premature labor. We've been seeing a lot of people get COVID and then their placentas are just like, “Hey, I'm done,” and they send the message to the body that they need to have a baby. I'm curious. Maybe it's a little bit of all of it. I don't know. COVID stuff is all a mystery. It's all very a fascinating thing.Lauren: Well, I'll tell you that the NICUs are definitely full. The doctors are definitely telling people that it's because of COVID that so many of these women are having early, premature births. Meagan: So interesting. How long before did you have COVID?Lauren: I had COVID at Christmas and I PPROM'd in late February. He was born on February 23rd. Meagan: Crazy, so a couple of months. Lauren: A month and a half-ish. Meagan: Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. Well, I am so grateful for you for getting up at not even dawn, for getting up in the middle of the night to share your beautiful stories with us. We are so happy for you and grateful for you. I will promise you this. You are going to touch someone out there. I know you will. Lauren: Thanks. I really appreciate that and again, thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

About LaurenLauren Hasson is the Founder of DevelopHer, an award-winning career development platform that has empowered thousands of women in tech to get ahead, stand out, and earn more in their careers. She also works full-time on the frontlines of tech herself. By day, she is an accomplished software engineer at a leading Silicon Valley payments company where she is the architect of their voice payment system and messaging capabilities and is chiefly responsible for all of application security.Through DevelopHer, she's partnered with top tech companies like Google, Dell, Intuit, Armor, and more and has worked with top universities including Indiana and Tufts to bridge the gender gap in leadership, opportunity, and pay in tech for good. Additionally, she was invited to the United Nations to collaborate on the global EQUALS initiative to bridge the global gender divide in technology. Sought after across the globe for her insight and passionate voice, Lauren has started a movement that inspires women around the world to seek an understanding of their true value and to learn and continually grow.  Her work has been featured by industry-leading publications like IEEE Women in Engineering Magazine and Thrive Global and her ground-breaking platform has been recognized with fourteen prestigious awards for entrepreneurship, product innovation, diversity and leadership including the Women in IT Awards Silicon Valley Diversity Initiative of the Year Award, three Female Executive of the Year Awards, and recognition as a Finalist for the United Nations WSIS Stakeholder Prize.Links: DevelopHer: https://developher.com The DevelopHer Playbook: https://www.amazon.com/DevelopHer-Playbook-Simple-Advocate-Yourself-ebook/dp/B08SQM4P5J TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that?Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate: is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards, while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other, which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at Honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability, it's more than just hipster monitoring. Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that?Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A somewhat recurring theme of this show has been the business of cloud, and that touches on a lot of different things. One thing I've generally cognizant of not doing is talking to folks who don't look like me and asking them questions like, “Oh, that's great, but let's ignore everything that you're doing, and instead talk about what it's like not to be a cis-gendered white dude in tech,” because that's crappy. Today, we're sort of deviating from that because my guest is Lauren Hasson, the founder of DevelopHer, which is a career development platform that empowers women in tech to get ahead. Lauren, thanks for joining me.Lauren: Thanks so much for having me, Corey.Corey: So, you're the founder of DevelopHer, and that is ‘develop-her' as in ‘she'. I'm not going to be as distinct on that pronunciation, so if you think I'm saying ‘developer' and it doesn't make intellectual sense, listener, that's what's going on. But you're also a speaker, you're an author, and you work on the front lines of tech yourself. That's a lot of stuff. What's your story?Lauren: Yeah, I do. So, I'm not only the founder-developer, but I'm just like many of your listeners: I work on the front lines of tech myself. I work remotely from my home in Dallas for a Silicon Valley payments company, where I'm the architect of our voice payment system, and I up until recently was chiefly responsible for all of application security. Yeah, and I do keep busy.Corey: It certainly seems like it. Let's go back to, I guess, the headline item here. You are the founder of DevelopHer, and one thing that always drives me a little nutty is when people take a glance at what I do and then try and tell the story, and then effectively mess the whole thing up. What is DevelopHer?Lauren: So, DevelopHer is what I wish I had ten years ago—or actually nine years ago. It's an empowerment platform that helps individual women—men, too—get ahead in their careers, earn more, and stand out. And part of my story, you know, I have the degrees from undergrad in electrical engineering and computer science, but I went a completely different direction after graduating. And at the end of the Great Recession, I found myself with no job with no technical skills, and I mean, no job prospects, at all. It was really, really bad, ugly crying on my couch bad, Corey.And I took a number of steps to get ahead and really relearn my tech skills, and I only got one offer to give myself a chance. It was a 90-days to prove myself, to get ahead, and teach myself iOS. And I remember it was one of the most terrifying things I've ever done. And within two years, I not only managed to survive that 90-day period and keep that job, but I had completely managed to thrive. My work had been featured in Apple's iOS7 keynote, I'd won the company-wide award at a national agency four times, I had won the SXSW international Hackathon, twice in a row.And then probably the pinnacle of it all is I was one of 100 tech innovators worldwide invited to attend the [UKG 00:03:41] Innovation Conference. And they flew me there on a private 747 jet, and it was just unreal. And so I founded DevelopHer because I needed this ten years ago, when I was at rock bottom, to figure out how to get ahead: how do I get into my career; how do I stand out? And of course, you know there's more to the story, but I also found out I was underpaid after achieving all of that, that a male peer was paid exactly what I was paid, with no credentials, despite all of the awards that I won. And I went out and learned to negotiate, and tripled my salary in two years, and turned around and said, “I'm going to teach other women—and men, too—how to get real change in their own life.”Corey: I love hearing stories where people discover that they're underpaid. I mean, it's a bittersweet moment because on the one hand it's, “Wait, you mean they've been taking advantage of me?” And you feel bad for people, but at the same time, you're sort of watching the blindfold fall away from their eyes of, “Yeah, but it's been this way, and now you know about it. And now you're in a position to potentially do something about it.” I gave a talk at a tech conference a few years back called “Weasel your Way to the Top: How to Handle a Job Interview” and it was a fun talk.I really enjoyed it, but what I discovered was after I'd given it I got some very direct feedback of, “That's a great talk and you give a lot of really useful advice. What if I don't look like you?” And I realized, “Oh, my God, I built this out of things that worked for me and I unconsciously built all of my own biases and all of my own privilege into that talk.” At which point I immediately stopped giving it until I could relaunch it as a separate talk with a friend of mine, Sonia Gupta, who does not look like me. And between the two of us, it became a much stronger, much better talk.Lauren: It's good that you understand what you were bringing to the table and how you can appeal to an even larger audience. And what I've done is really said, “Here's my experience as a woman in tech, and here's what's worked for me.” And what's been surprising is men have said, “Yeah, that's what I did.” Except for I put a woman in tech spin on it and… I mean, I knew it worked for me; I have more than quintupled my base salary—just my base salary alone—in nine years. And the results that women are getting from my programming—I had one woman who earned $80,000 more in a single negotiation, which tells me, one, she was really underpaid, but she didn't just get one offer at $80,000 more; she got at least two. I mean, that changed her life.And I think the lowest I've heard is, like, $30,000 difference change. I mean, this is, this is life-changing for a lot of women. And the scary thing is that it's not just, say it's $50,000 a year. Well, over ten years, that's half a million dollars. Over 20 years, that's a million, and that's not even interest and inflation and compounding going into that. So, that's a huge difference.Corey: It absolutely is. It's one of those things that continues to set people further and further back. One thing that I think California got very right is they've outlawed recently asking what someone's previous compensation was because, “Oh, we don't want to give someone too big of a raise,” is a way you perpetuate the systemic inequality. And that's something that I wish more employers would do.Lauren: It's huge. I know the women and proponents who had moved that forward; some of them are personal friends of mine, and it's huge. And that's actually something that I trained specifically for is how to handle difficult questions like, “How much are you currently making?” Which you can't legally get asked in California, although it still happens, so how do you handle it if you still get asked and you don't want to rule yourself out? Or even worse—which they still can ask—which is, “How much do you want to make?”And a lot of times, people get asked that before they know anything about the job. And they basically, if you give an answer upfront, you're negotiating against yourself. And so I tackle tough things like that head-on. And I'm very much an engineer at heart, so for me, it's very methodical; I prepare scripts in advance to handle the pushback that I'm going to get, to handle the difficult questions. Without a doubt, I know all of my numbers, and that's where I'm getting real results for women is by taking the methodical approach to it.Corey: So, I spent my 20s in crippling credit card debt, and I was extremely mercenary, as a result. This wasn't because of some grand lost vision or something. Nope. I had terrible financial habits. So, every decision I made in that period of my life was extraordinarily mercenary. I would leave jobs I enjoyed for a job I couldn't stand because it paid $10,000 more.And the thing that I picked up from all of this, especially now having been on the other side of that running a company myself, is I'm not suggesting at any point that people should make career decisions based upon where they can make the most money, but that should factor in. One thing we do here at The Duckbill Group, in every job posting we put up is we post the salary range for the position. And I want to be clear here, it is less than anyone here could make at one of the big tech unicorns or a very hot startup that's growing meteorically, and we're upfront about that. We know that if money is the thing you're after and that is the driving force behind what you're going for, great; I don't fault you for that.This might not be the best role for you and that's perfectly okay. I get it. But you absolutely should know what your market worth is so you can make that decision from a place of being informed, rather than being naive and later discovering that you were taken advantage of.Lauren: So, I want to unpack just a couple things. There's just so many gold nuggets in that. Number one, for any employer listening out there, that is such a great best practice, to post the range. You're going to attract the right candidates when you post the right range. The last thing you want is to get to the end of the process to find out that, hey, you guys were totally off, and all the time invested could have been avoided if you'd had some sort of expectation set, upfront.That said, that's actually where I start with my negotiation training. A lot of people think I start with the money and that it's all about the money. That's not where I start. The very first thing I train women, and the men who've taken it, too, on the course is, figure out what success looks like to you. And not just the number success, but what does your life look like? What does your lifestyle look like? What does it feel like? What kinds of things do you do? What kinds of things do you value?Money is one of those components, but it's not all. And here's the reason I did that: because at a certain point in my life, I only got out at—broke even out of debt, you know, within the last five years. That's how underpaid I was at the time. But then once I started climbing out of debt, I started realizing it's not all about money. And that's actually how I ended up in my dream position.I mean, I'm living out how I define success today. Could I be making a lot more money at a big tech unicorn? Yeah, I could. But I also have this incredible lifestyle; it's sustainable. I get on apps like Blind and other internet forums, and I hear just horror stories of people burning out and the toxic cultures they work with. I don't have that at all. I have something that I could easily do for the next 50 years of my life if I live that long.But it's not by accident that I'm in the role that I'm in right now. I actually took the time to figure out what success looks like to me, and so when this opportunity came along—and I was looking at it alongside other opportunities that honestly paid more, I recognized this opportunity for what it was because I'd put in the work up front to figure out what success looks like to me. And so that's why what you guys are saying, “Hey, it's a lifestyle that you guys are supporting and mission that you're joining that's so important.” And you need to know that and do that work up front.Corey: That's I think what it really comes down to is understanding that in many cases… in fact, I'm going to take that back—in all cases, there's an inherent adversarial nature to the discussions you have about compensation with your employer or your prospective employer. And I say ‘adversarial' not antagonistic because you are misaligned as far as the ultimate purpose of the conversation. I'm not going to paint myself as some saint here and say that, oh, I'm on the side of every person I'm negotiating against, trying to get them to take a salary that's less than they deserve. Because, first, although I view myself that I'm not in that position, you have to take that on faith from me, and I think that is too far of a bridge to cross. So, take even what I'm saying now from the position as someone who has a vested interest in the outcomes of that negotiation.I mean, we're not one of those unicorn startups; we can't outbid Netflix and we wouldn't even try to. We're one of those old-fashioned businesses that has taken no investment and we fund ourselves through the magic of revenue and profitability, which means we don't have a SoftBank-sized [laugh] war chest sitting in the bank that we can use to just hurl ridiculous money at people and see who pans out. Hiring has to be intentional and thoughtful because we're a very small team. And if you're looking for something that doesn't align with that, great; I certainly don't blame you. That isn't this, and that's okay, I'm not trying to hire everyone.And if it's not going to work out, why wouldn't we say that upfront to avoid trying to get to all the way at the end of a very expensive interview process—both in terms of time and investment and emotionally—only to figure out that we're worlds apart on comp, and it's never going to work.Lauren: A hundred percent agree. I mean, I've been through it on both ends, both as someone who is being hired and also as a hiring manager, and I understand it. And you need to find alignment, and that's what negotiation is all about is finding an alignment, finding something where everyone feels like they're winning in the situation. And I'm a big proponent—and this is going to go so counterculture—I think a lot of people overlook a lot of opportunities that are just golden nuggets. I think there's a lot of idol worship of the big tech companies.And don't get me wrong; I'm sure they pay really well, great opportunity for your career, but I think people are overlooking a lot of really great career opportunities to get experience, and responsibility, and have good pay and lifestyle. And I'm a big proponent and looking for those golden nuggets rather than shooting for one of the big tech unicorns.Corey: And other people are going to have a very different perspective on that, and that is absolutely okay. So, tell me a little bit more about what it is that DevelopHer does and how you go about doing it because it's one thing to say, “Oh, we help women figure out that they are being underpaid,” but there's a whole lot of questions that opens up because great. How do you do that?Lauren: I do a number of things. So, it's not all about pay either. Part of it's building your value, building your confidence, standing out, getting ahead. DevelopHer started, actually, as a podcast. Funny story; I wanted to solve the problem of, we need more technical women as visible leaders out there, and I said, “Where are the architects? Where are the CTOs? Where are the CSOs?”And I didn't think anyone would care about me. I mean, I'm not Sheryl Sandberg; I'm not [laugh] the CEO of Facebook. Who's going to listen to me? And then I was actually surprised when people cared about my own story, about coming back from being underpaid and then getting back into tech and figuring out how to stand out in such a short amount of time. And other women were saying, “Well, how did you do it?”And it wasn't just women; it was men, too, saying, “Hey, I also don't know how to effectively advocate for myself.” And then it was companies saying, “Hey, can you come in and help us build our internal bench, recruit more women to come work for us, and build our own women leaders?” And then I've started working with universities to help bridge the gap before it even starts. I partnered with major universities to license my program and train them, not only how do you negotiate for what you're worth, for your first salary, but also how do you come in and immediately make an impact and accelerate your career growth? And then, of course, I work with individual women.I've talked about I have a salary negotiation course that's won a couple awards for the work, the results that it's getting, but then I just recently wrote a book because I wanted to reach women and men at scale and help them really get ahead. And this was literally my playbook. It's called The DevelopHer Playbook. And it's, how did I break into tech? And then once I was in tech, how did I get ahead so quickly? And it's not rocket science. And that's what I'm working on is training other people do it. And look, I'm still learning; I'm still paving my own path forward in tech, myself.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: I feel like no one really has a great plan for, “Oh, where are you going next in tech? Do you have this whole thing charted out?” “Of course not. I'm doing this fly by night, seat of my pants, if I'm being perfectly honest with you.” And it's hard to know where to go next.What's interesting to me is that you talk about helping people individually—generally women—through your program, but you also work directly with companies. And when you're talking about things like salary negotiation, I think a natural question that flows from that is, are there aspects of what you wind up talking to individuals about versus what you do when talking to companies that are in opposition to each other?Lauren: Yeah, so that's a great question. So, the answer is there are some progressive companies that have brought me in to do salary negotiation training. Complete candor, most companies aren't interested. It's my Zero-To-Hero DevelopHer Playbook program which is, how do you get ahead? How do you build your value, become an asset at the company?So, it's less focused on pay, but more how do you become more valuable, and get ahead and add more value to the company? And that's where I work with the individuals and the companies on that front.Corey: It does seem like it would be a difficult sell, in most enterprise scenarios, to get a company to pay someone to come in to teach their staff how to more effectively [laugh] negotiate their next raise. I love the vision.Lauren: It has happened. I also thought it was crazy, but it has happened. But no, most of my corporate clients say, “We not only want to encourage more women into tech, but we already have a lot of women who are already in our ranks, and we want to encourage them to really feel like they're empowered and to stand out and reach the next levels.” And that's my sweet spot for corporate.Corey: Somewhat recently, I was asked on a Twitter Spaces—which is like Clubhouse but somehow different and strange—did I think that the privilege that I brought to what I do had enabled me to do these things, being white, being a man, being cis-gendered—speaking English as my primary language was an interesting one that I hadn't heard contextualized like that before—and whether that had advantaged me as I went through these things? And I think it's impossible to say anything other than absolutely because it's easy to, on some level, take a step back and think, “Well, I've built this company, and this media platform, and the rest. And that wasn't given to me; I had to build it.” And that's absolutely true. I did have to build it, and it wasn't given to me.But as I was building it, the winds were at my back not against me. I was not surrounded by people who are telling me I couldn't do it. Every misstep I made wasn't questioned as, well, you sure you should be doing this thing that you're not really doing? It was very much a fail-forward. And if you think that applies to everyone, then you are grievously mistaken.Lauren: I think that's a healthy perspective, which is why I consider you one of developers in my strongest allies, the fact that you're willing to look at yourself and go, “What advantages did I have? And how might I need to adapt my messaging or my advice so that it's applicable to even more people?” But it's also something I've experienced myself. I mean, I set out to help women in tech because I'm in women in tech myself. And I was surprised by a couple of things.Number one, I was surprised that men were [laugh] asking me for advice as well. And individuals and medicine, and finance, and law, in business not even related to tech, but what I'm really proud of that I didn't set out to build because I didn't feel qualified, but I'm really glad that I've been able to serve is that there were three populations that I've been really able to serve, especially at the university level. Number one, international students who, you mentioned yourself, English might not be their first language, but they're not familiar with the US hiring and advancement and pay process, and I help normalize that. And that's something that I myself in the benefit of, having been born here in the US. People who, where English isn't their first language; you think it's hard enough to answer, “Why do you think you should be promoted?”Or, “How much do you think you should make for this role? What do you want?” In your first language? Try answering it in your third, right? And then when I'm really proud of is, especially at the university level, I've been really able to help students where they're first-generation college students, where they don't have a professional mentor within their immediate family.And providing them a roadmap—or actually, the playbook to how to get ahead and then how to advocate for yourself. And these were things that I didn't feel qualified to help, but these are the individuals who've ended up coming and utilizing my program, and finding a lot of benefit from that. And it made me realize that I'm doing something bigger than I even set out to do, and that is very meaningful to me.Corey: You mentioned that you give guidance on salary negotiation and career advancement to not just women, but also men, and not just people who are in tech, but people who are in other business areas as well. How does what you're advising people to do shift—if at all—from folks who are women working in tech?Lauren: So, that's the key is it really doesn't shift. What I'm teaching are fundamentals and, spoiler alert, I teach grounding yourself in data, and knowing your data, and taking the emotion out of the process, whether you're trying to get ahead, to stand out, to earn more. And I teach fundamentals, which is five-point process.Number one, you got to figure out what success looks like to you. I talked a little bit about that earlier, but it's foundational. I mean, I start with that because that alone changed my life. I would still be pursuing success today and not have reached it, but I'm living out how I defined success because I started there.Then you got to really know your worth. Absolutely without a doubt, know how much you're worth. And for me, this was transformational. I mean, eye-opening. Like you said earlier, the blindfold coming off. When I saw for a fact how much employers paid other people with my skill sets, it was a game-changer for me. And so I—without a shadow of a doubt, I use four different strategies, multiple resources in each strategy to know comprehensively how much I'm worth.And then I teach knowing your numbers. It's not an emotional thing; it's very much scientific, so I talked about knowing your key numbers, your target, your ask, and your walk away, and those are all very dependent on your employment and financial situation, so it's different from person to person. And then I talk about—and this is a little different than what other people teach—is I talk about finding leverage, what you uniquely bring to the table, or identifying companies where you uniquely add value, where you can either lock in an offer or negotiate a premium.And then I prepare. I prepare. Just like you prepare for an interview, I prepare for a negotiation, and if I'm asking for the right amount of money, I am going to be prepared for pushback and I want to be able to handle that, and I don't want to just know it on the fly; I want to have scripts and questions prepared to handle that pushback. I want to be prepared to answer some of the most difficult questions that you're going—get asked, like we talked about earlier.And then the final step is I practice over and over and over again, just like a sporting event. I am ready to go into action and get a great thing. So, those are the fundamentals. I've marketed to women in tech because I'm a woman in tech and we don't have enough women in tech, and women are 82 cents on the dollar in tech, but what I found is that doctors were using the same methodology. I wasn't marketing it to them. Lawyers, business people, finance people were using it because I was teaching such fundamentals.Corey: Taking it one step further, if someone is listening to this and starting to get a glimmering of the sense that they're not where they could be career-wise, either in terms of compensation, advancement, et cetera, what advice would you have for them as far as things to focus on first? Not to effectively extract the entire content of your course into podcast form, but where do they start?Lauren: Yeah. So, you start by investing in yourself and investing in the change that you want. And that first investment might be figuring out how much you're worth, you know, doing that research to figure out how much you're worth. And then going out and learning the skills. And look, I have a course, I have a book that you can use to get ahead; if I'm not the right fit, there are a ton of resources out there. The trick is to find the best fit for you.And my only regret as I look back over the last 10, 15 years of my career is that I didn't invest in myself sooner and that I didn't go out and figure out how much I was worth, and that I—when they said, “Well, you're just not there yet,” when I asked for more money, that I believed them. And that was on me that I didn't go out and go, “I wonder how much I'm worth?” And do the research. And then, I regret not hiring a career coach earlier. I wish I'd gotten back into tech sooner.And I wish that I had learned to negotiate and advocate for myself sooner. But my knack, Corey—and I believe things happen to me for a reason—is my special skills is I take things that were meant not necessarily intentionally to harm me, but things that hurt me, I learned from them, I turn it around in the best way possible, and then I teach and I create programs to help uplift other people. And that's my special skill set; that's sort of my mission and purpose in life, and now I'm just trying to really exploit it and make this into a big movement that impacts millions of lives.Corey: So, what's next for you? You've built this platform, you've put yourself out there, you've clearly made a dent in the direction that you're heading in. What's next?Lauren: [laugh]. I am looking to scale. I'm just like any company; I've really focused on delivering value proof of concept. What a lot of people don't realize is not only did I build DevelopHer in quote, “my spare time,” but I did this without any outside investors. I funded it at all myself, built it on my own sweat equity—Corey: [laugh]. That one resonates.Lauren: Yeah. [laugh]. I know you know what that feels like. And so for me, I'm focused on scale: bringing in more corporate partners; bringing in more university clients, to scale and bridge the gap before it even starts; and scaling and reaching more women and men and anyone who wants to figure out how to get ahead, stand out, and earn more. And so the next year, two years are really focused on scale.Corey: If people want to learn more about what you do, how you do it, or potentially look at improving their own situations, where can they find you?Lauren: I am online. Go to developher.com. I have resources for individuals; I have a book, which is a great, cost-effective way to learn a lot.I have an award-winning negotiation course that helps you go out and earn what you're truly worth, and I have a membership to connect with me and other like-minded individuals. If you're a company leader, I work with companies all the time to train their women—and men, too—to get ahead and build their value. And then also, I work with universities as well to help bridge the gender wage gap before it starts, and builds future leaders.Corey: And we will, of course, include links to that in the [show notes 00:27:55]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Lauren: Corey, thank you so much for having me, and I really mean it. You know, Corey is a strong ally. We connected, and I am glad to count you as not only my own ally but an ally of DevelopHer.Corey: Well, thank you. That's incredibly touching to hear. I appreciate it.Lauren: I mean it.Corey: Thank you. Sometimes all you can say to a sincere compliment is, “Thank you.” Arguing it is an insult, and I'm not that bold. [laugh].Lauren: That's actually really good advice that I give women is, so many times, we cut down our own compliments. And so that's a great example right there, and it is not just women who sometimes I have a challenge with it; men, too. When someone gives you a compliment, just say, “Thank you.”Corey: Good advice for any age, in any era. Lauren Hasson, founder of DevelopHer, speaker, author, frontline engineer some days. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and an insulting comment telling me that my company is never going to succeed if I don't attempt to outbid Netflix.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Episode title: EPS: 7 - Shining Light During a Dark Time with Lauren Quirke   Episode summary introduction: On today's show, we are talking with fellow TAES speaker, Lauren Quirke. We dive into how to be a shining light during this dark time and bring more gratitude into our lives. Lauren shares with us how to find the beauty in all of these negative events. We also talk all about how to best utilize this time we were given in our lives, business, and family.   Resources mentioned in this episode:  Lauren on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauren.quirke/ Rich Soul Radio: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/rich-soul-radio/ Rich Soul Squad: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1172726359567849   What is TAES?:  The Abundant Entrepreneur Summit 2.0 is a 3-Day Virtual Women's Event held November 12th, 13th & 14th hosted by Kamille Cawley. Lauren is one of the incredible guests who will be speaking at this event.   Episode transcript: Lauren: This is a time for us to really go inside ourselves. So when you're sitting there and you're like, Oh crap, I can't go to work today to the job that I'm not even into, get amongst personal development. I mean, get amongst working with your soul, connecting into your body, start learning how to meditate, start learning how to, to find your center and to listen to your heart and your soul. Kamille: Welcome to the Abundant Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Kamille Cawley, two time business owner, fitness expert, connection strategist, creator of the Abundant Entrepreneur Summit, wife, and fur mom. Each week, these episodes are filled with stories, strategies, and expertise given by guest entrepreneurs from all across the world, as well as bonus episodes, from me, that will energize, empower and support you in your journey through entrepreneurship. Get ready to elevate your vibe and captivate your tribe. It's time we connect to our message, step into who we are truly meant to be, and become more abundant in life and business. Who is with me? Let's get started. Kamille: Hi, everyone. We're so happy to be back. I have my good friend Lauren here, and she is going to tell you guys what she does, but today we're going to be talking a lot about what's going on. How we can make the best of what is happening in our world today, because we're all going through this right now, and it's a tough time, but there are things that we could be doing. And there's a lot of things that can be manifesting and working on. And Lauren is a great person to do that. So tell us a little bit about you, Lauren, cause you are like, you're so good at this. So go. Lauren: Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So my name is Lauren Quirke. I am the founder of Rich Soul Revolution. I basically help women to take a more holistic and soul driven approach to their business and their lives as an extension. I, yeah, I have a podcast and all that, but at the moment I'm really focusing a lot on helping people to really activate their light and shine that into the world because of what dark times we are in. And yeah, so I'm just, I'm happy to be here and jamming with you. Kamille: Yeah, absolutely. So like you guys said, she's very, very good at bringing the light to situations in general, but we obviously know a lot of you are going through a hard time. It's a little bit scary. It's a little bit, there's a lot of unknown with what is going to happen, how long we're going to be away from jobs, how long we're going to be stuck in a quarantine situation. Lauren is actually not here in the United States where most of my people are. Where are you at? Tell them. Lauren: I am in Australia where things aren't so crazy. However, we are in this weird state of limbo. Like will, we won't? Like the schools are still open at the moment. And around the world, most of the Western world has essentially shut down, but over here in Australia, we're a little bit behind. We are like I just, I just saw a news article before I got on and saying that they would, they were telling us to distance ourselves from our children, which is so impractical because I mean like how, like, I dunno, I just had this image of these children wandering the streets with a little knapsacks while the parents we're like stay out. Yeah it's just not practical. Dirty faces cause like there's no one to wipe the gunk off their face, but yeah. It's crazy just to see what's happening around the world. And as an energetic being, and as someone who, I'm highly intuitive, I have access to my psychic powers and all like my intuition and I get really strong downloads from the universe telling me that it's going to be okay, so I'm not stressing. I'm more worried about the impact that it's having on the global consciousness. And I feel like it's a really important point to point out here that we, this is the awakening that's been, it's been building up for so long. And it's, I heard a reference to the day that said this is the freight train. This is a freight train that you get that little knot in your stomach that's like, it's time to wake up. And then you get it's a little bit louder. It's time to wake up. It's time to wake up. And over the last decade, there have been lots of people awakening their consciousness and their spirituality. And so were maybe not people who are in that position, maybe aren't feeling the wrath of this as much, but this is a global awakening. This is literally, it's like the freight train is coming through and it's like, you're not going to listen, well here is the big impact that you need to wake up and realize that your soul needs work and we human beings are spiritual beings. So we need to really connect within ourselves. So this is a great time to do that as well. Kamille: And as Lauren and I were talking before this, we were saying that, although we personally may not seem so panicked or freaked out by the situation and we seem very grounded right now, we feel that it's important for us to help those that are feeling lost right now, not motivated, unsure of what's going on. Maybe even like really pushing back, because they just don't know what to do at this point. And we're understanding of that. We are not judging that just because we are certain and we feel okay with what's going on. We understand that there's some push back in your own mentality, anxiety, panic. There's so much that's going on. If you're watching the news you will automatically be panicked and try to stay away from that. Especially the first couple hours of your day. Just maybe we were also talking about, obviously I wanted you to go into what you think is something that would be, especially for, I have a lot of entrepreneurs that are here and some of them, they still had nine to five or some of them work full time, but they're still feeling a little like lost in what to do. What should they focus on? What is going? What is your idea of something that they feel they could start working on now to make them more grounded and get back into their flow of work, back into what they were doing before all of this happened? Lauren: Yeah. That's a great question because we, at the moment we're all kind of floating up in the air or like what's going on. Everything we've ever known is like just crumbled in, in two weeks. I mean, Kamille and I were talking literally like two weeks ago and like there was, it was in the background. We knew it was there, but it literally didn't even come up in any of our conversations that we had because it wasn't that big a deal. And now speaking, it's like the world's just going crazy. And it's like, borderline apocalyptic, where you go to the supermarket, you can't even buy essential things anymore or non essential things. But I think the most important thing to do right now is understand that this is happening, like for you. This is everything is shifting. Everything is changing and there's nothing that we can do to control that. So when you can surrender to that and just go, okay, I am here, you are here. Like you have a purpose on this planet. Otherwise you wouldn't be here surviving this. You wouldn't be here working through it. This is something that we were all sent here to experience, and this is going to help you grow. You don't have a choice in that. Like, I mean, you could resist it, but like none of us have a choice we are going to, when this is all over, we are going to wake up and the world is going to be a completely different place than it was before. And like the likes of 9/11, when that happened, the world is a very different place, post 9/11 as it was before it. So it's the same kind of thing on a larger, more global, more collective scales. So what you can do really, to ground yourself is to surrender at first to let go of that, because that isn't going to serve you moving forward. And this is a time for us to really go inside ourselves. So when you're sitting there and you're like, Oh crap, I can't go to work today to the job that I'm not even that into, get amongst personal development. I mean get amongst working with your soul, connecting into your body, start learning how to meditate, start learning, how to, to find your center and to listen to your heart and your soul, like learn that. Cause it's something that does take practice. It's something that does take a lot of time. So while you have the free time, instead of sitting there and bingeing on, the latest Netflix movie and things like that, because guess what, like all that stuff shut down too, that stopped filming that, like Hollywood they've stopped filming all the things they had going on. Like all the studios are shutting down. So eventually like this goes on long enough, there's not going to be any new content in that space for us to consume. So start, but guess like we are in our homes, all of us leaders out here in our homes, creating content for you, showing up for you. So consume that and find ways that you can, can really connect into your soul because moving forward, you are going to be a different person. The person next door is going to be a different person and everyone is going to shift. So you get to decide now how that shift will happen. Is it going to be for the better, or is it going to be the, the worst? So yeah, you get to decide and ways you can do that. Like I said, I'm meditating, I'm dancing to really remove that stress and that our bodies hold onto so much of it. The other night I went to a healing and we, it was really strange cause we thought, Oh, maybe there's going to be like the four regulars there. And it has never been so busy. There were like 25 people there. And I was like, that's just such a beautiful insight into humanity where we're, like in times of panic and worry, we're all showing up. We're all showing up for ourselves and it's not, we're showing up for other people, we're showing up for ourselves. And I went to that healing so that I could show up in a bigger way for the rest of my community, for the rest of the collective. So yeah, it's just about deciding now who you want to be like, do you want to be scared and timid and hide or do you want to show up as a leader? And I know the women listening to this, you, you have a call, you have a calling right now and whether you've tapped into it or not yet you have this calling to show up in a bigger way and you had it before this. So don't let that. So would that be overshadowed by what's going on? Because this isn't, this isn't a permanent thing. This is something that's temporary. And on the other side of it is so much beauty. You just have to work through that. Kamille: I loved that you said two things that we need to surrender to it because it's going to happen. It's happening. It's happening no matter how we feel about it, what is going on inside of us right now, it's going to happen? So the best thing we can do is try to adjust to it and make the best out of this situation. And I liked the other part that you said showing up for ourselves because right now you get that opportunity. A lot of times you're showing up for other people. If you are going to a nine to five, still, you have to go show up for your boss and all your other coworkers. If you're showing up online, a lot of times you aren't just showing up for you. You feel like you have to show up for everyone else. Right now, you can show up for yourself. You can show up and show what you have, what value you have as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as the side hustle that you've always wanted. And just someone that's online. If you just are someone that feels like you've always had a passion for something, even if you're not trying to make a business out of it, this is your time to truly show up for others and show them what you have inside of you. And I've seen a lot of people kind of crumble underneath what's happening. I've seen business owners that I've dealt with that have been pushing so hard in business right now. And I want to tell you guys a little story of it's not long. Kamille: It's just, I have a business owner. She has been working. She was my client for a little while last summer. And she's been working so hard to get her business off the ground. And she is currently stuck in a different country, away from her family and her boyfriend, her boyfriend of like six years. She is currently stuck in another country. Can't fly to him. She's stuck in Canada. They won't let her fly out. She's been stuck there for, she was there on vacation, is stuck there. Has not been able to go home for almost three and a half weeks. And she has no idea, no idea when she gets to go home. So when you're feeling like you're stuck in your actual home and you're not doing anything about it, there are people out there that can't even go home to their families right now. There are people that are stuck in areas that they don't want to be, or in actual quarantine. In actual quarantine, away from their families, not being able to touch a single soul. So in this moment, you are truly blessed. You are blessed. We're blessed in this moment. I know it's hard to see through all of the thick layer and everything else that's out there. But if you are truly blessed in this moment to be, I am blessed right now to be in my home office, knowing my husband's going to be here, my dogs in the other room, you know. I am blessed with food and everything in my cabinets. I am blessed right now. During this situation, I can now step up and be there for you guys when other people don't even have that opportunity, can't even be with their loved ones at this moment. So I know it can be hard but I don't know how you feel about that. Because when I heard that story today, I was about to cry for her because I felt so bad. She's like a 26 year old woman stuck during this time in a country, she doesn't even know. Lauren: Absolutely. And you know they had the other day they had on the news or a current affair, which is like a breeding ground for negativity, really. Like I never actually watched it, but it was on before, like a show that I wanted to watch. And I was like, whatever, my mom was watching it, we were kind of like, this is like just a disgusting thing to be watching, but whatever. And they had a woman who was like a reporter for the show. And she'd been over in New Zealand, which is like a four hour flight. It's not like it's like an extended state of Australia. And they sent her, she got back home and she got on the last flight before they shut down like the borders. So she was on like the lot, they had 24 hours to get. They gave him 24 hours to get home, which was impossible before the, before the court, the 14 day isolation which I find really strange too. Because they're still getting in taxis. They're getting out of the airport, going into taxis, going to their hotels or their apartments and still coming into contact with people. But anyway logic has definitely gone out the window in this situation. So that's what it is. But and she was even saying that she, they had a two year old daughter who didn't travel with them because they went on like a romantic weekend away before like the hit and they then had to go back and, and quarantine, but they were like, well, what do we do with our two year old daughter? Like we have to be away from her for another two weeks. She's two. She doesn't understand like, sorry, there are so many stories. I saw a story of a girl who came over to Australia to visit her family. She was living in LA, she's an Aussie girl, but she was living in LA with her puppy and everything in LA. Lauren: And she came over for like a week and got stuck here and now she can't leave. And now like her puppy is on the other side of the world. And even though like that's not, it's still, like someone who needs her, it's a soul that needs her now she's going to try and work out a way to get that puppy looked after longer. Because she had to be like a kennel and you like, you can't afford a kennel forever. And it's just, it's crazy. And there are all these little stories. I have friends on Facebook who are, who were living in Italy, who are contemplating, escaping, running to another country in the middle of the night to get out of there, to, to come home. And it's just, it's just wild, but what you can do, I love what you said there. Like, what you can do is just find some things that you're grateful for. Find the fact that you have a roof over your head, even, yet it's inconvenient to have to stay in that. And that's the only place you could be for the next God knows how long. But guess what, at least you have a roof over your head. There are people out there lying on the streets right now who are the most vulnerable, who are the most forgotten, who are the ones who are going to suffer the most and were over here freaking out about bloody toilet paper. Like find things that you can be grateful for. This is a great time to cleanse, and this is what this, this is what this whole situation is. It's a cleansing agent basically. first of all I know in our country we had, chronic bushfires for six months. Like our country has finally stopped burning. And then we had really bad floods after that. And then after that we've had this. So it is literally that the earth like mother earth is, she's cleansing. And with that comes comes us as well. We have to cleanse as well. We have to purge. So take this time to go through your house and cleanse anything that doesn't belong there, put it up in bags, put it in your garage or wherever. And then when, when you can leave, get it out of there, remove it. It doesn't need to be there anymore. So, and, and bless it, sends it off to somebody else who needs it, but just finding little practices of gratitude, just, taking a moment to just go I'm here. Like I get to be here today, even though it is just in my house and my kids are running around driving me crazy and I can't wait for them to get back to school. And like I wish I could just focus on my work or, I wish I could just do the thing I wish I could. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I wish I could go to my nine to five job or whatever, you know? So really just focus on what you have available to you right now and be grateful for that because people aren't getting that, that opportunity, people have died from this virus and I'm not saying that to scare you, but I'm saying that to say, get some perspective of like, Oh, what, like you, you have to stay inside your nice warm home and be safe. What a problem that is, you know? Kamille: Yeah. I agree. Like we, and that's why I say like, just be grateful. I think that this is the perfect time for self awareness to take some time for self care, self understanding. you have this time, you have this time at home, you know? Lauren: It's a gift. It's a gift. It doesn't look like that. It's a gift wrapped in really shitty paper. Kamille: And like, you can actually figure out like, I, before all of this happened, I had so many like women that would come to me and say like, I just can't focus. They don't know there's so much going on. I don't know. I don't, can't find clarity in what I need to do. This is your time to find clarity. You get this opportunity. And yet again, I understand it's in the wake of some bad stuff, but you have the opportunity to sit down and really get to know yourself and understand yourself. And I promise you whatever you had pending in your business, or what you were trying to do is going to be 10 times better because you've had this time. And I think that it's so important. Like I said, I understand that some people are maybe not feeling motivated. I heard people are feeling unsure how to do content right now. And I get that. I get that. This is just tough. This is like, we all are trying to figure out how to navigate through this. Lauren: And were not coming from a space of, we have all the answers. Kamille: I always want to talk about it because I feel like this is the main subject, but then I'm like, I don't want to be talking about the Corona virus 24/7 on my Instagram or my social media. And so I've been trying to figure it out myself on how to navigate. But all I know is that I have had the time to sit and say, okay, well, how can I come forward? And be like you said, just like this shining light, this leader for people that are truly, truly dealing with real stuff and really held back in this situation, because that is the opportunity I have. I don't have all the answers, but I just know that I can give something. And I've been at, if you guys follow me on Instagram, which I'm sure you all do, I've been giving out just workout programs and doing little workouts everyday. It just gives people some motivation, telling them how to get up and kind of go through a morning routine just so that people don't feel like it's over. It's not, it's not over. Lauren: This is the beginning. This is just the beginning. You guys, this is like, there's so much possibility and opportunity here. And you just have to open your eyes and your heart to see it. Kamille: That's true. I really want, I think mainly the reason I'm doing a lot of these calls and Lauren's an amazing person to have on here. But for me, I know that this is our time, especially for my online entrepreneurs. And I know that a lot of you that follow me, this is your time to thrive. Really? It is. I'm not saying to sell. Lauren and I were talking about, this is not the time to go, maybe push programs in people's faces. This is your time to truly show yourself, show who you are, educate people, help people, support people, because I promise you the moment we get out of this, if you helped five people, every single one of them is going to remember you, the moment that everything goes, not back to normal, but things start getting back into a routine. People are gonna remember that person that helped them through their anxiety or their motivation or whatever it was that kept their smile on throughout this whole situation. And really just helped people. And this is your opportunity. This is your opportunity to step up and thrive through this situation. And tell them a little bit about the masterclass you're gonna be doing on Sunday. Lauren: Yeah, so on Sunday, it's going to be 9:00 PM Sydney time. So that will be I'm not sure what time it will probably be in the morning, but there's going to be a replay anyway. But basically I had this, like this idea, this download that I wanted to really show up and give, some really good value around how to thrive in this uncertain time, because not only is this an uncertain time, but this there's nothing to say that in 10 years time or five years time that there's going to be certainty. We can't rely on the status quo. We have to be ready. We have to, you know I guess, proof out our businesses for these things. And if this can happen once it can happen again, you know whether it's the stock market crashes or whether it's a depression because of the financial strain, like, it doesn't mean that because the virus might be over in the next year or two months. Even if things change and they're not going to go back to the way they were. So how are you going to, damage proof your business so that you can thrive. So basically what I put together is a one hour training where I'm going to help you to, to do the marketing for your business. I'm going to help you to show up and teach you how to show up at this time, because it is a little bit of a gray area where it's like, how do I talk about my business? And there's a lot of guilt around it. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of like, Oh, I don't want to, like, what do I say, how do I approach this? Like, how do I, how do I show up and how do I, how do I make money? But like I'm not saying to put all of that on hold at the moment. Actually I'm not saying that at all, because I'm about to launch a program. I set the date for April 1st and I've had people sign up for the waiting list. So it's not about but I truly believe that the reason that they've been signing up to the waiting list, I haven't been pushing that product. I've been talking about how, like coming from a space of service. So that's, when you can come from a space of service, maybe it's giving away your program, at a cheaper rate or it's, it's, you know doing some free master classes, like what I'm doing to give value so that you are coming from a space of service because not only will that help you to, build your reputation and to really solidify your reputation in the online space, but it's also going to feel good. Lauren: It feels good to give, it feels good to give. And even if it's just something little, maybe it's just jumping on a five minute live and saying Hey guys, how's everyone feeling. Just tell me how you're feeling. I'm here for you. I, this is a safe container and I just want to know how everyone's coping. And then when they say, Oh, not great, I'm feeling really anxious. It's like, I'm here for you. I love you. And just know that you're okay, that you're safe and that you're supported and just exchanging that human connection in whatever capacity we can at the moment, because we are social beings. We are here too, we are tribe members and, for centuries we've lived in tribes. And now that we are segregated, it's like well we actually need that. So driving this uncertainty is it's just a masterclass that I've put together. There's no sales pitch attached. There's no, I'm actually giving away a free mini course that I put together about activating your lights so that you can, in this dark time we need more light. The more light we have, the less darkness there can be. So it's just about activating your own light and whatever capacity it is that you are showing up, whether you're, like a personal trainer or a coach or an online business person, whether whatever it is, or maybe you just have a nine to five job, and you just want to show up for your kids. You just want to take the burden off them and just shine your light. And this isn't just for coronavirus or the current situation, but it is something, a tangible tool that you can take forever. Because like I said, this might not be the only disaster that we live through. This might not be the, and it already isn't. I mean, we were all alive for 9/11. We were all alive for, the Bali bombings and terrorism throughout the years and natural disasters. And, just a few months ago, half of my country was on fire. So, we survived that we will, we will survive this, but it's about giving right now. It's about what I can give? What do I have to give? Maybe it's volunteering. like I know you guys can't really do that, but maybe it's making up some meals and then finding a way to deliver them to, to, some senior members in your community. Maybe it's just donating some cans of food that you actually don't like that maybe, like your husband bought some like the wrong tin of tomatoes or something. Lauren: And it's like, well, we're not going to eat this. Let's find a way to get it to someone who will. So it's just a way of finding a way of standing up and saying, I'm here. This is what I'm doing. And it's not going to stop because if you people need certainty right now. So if you have a business and you're like, I don't want to show up because I don't want people to take it the wrong way. Guess what? You're actually doing them a huge disservice, because people are looking for you right now. They have never needed you more. They have never needed you more so show up and it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to, you don't have to have this awesome. thing put together, I mean, I put together this, this masterclass, I had the idea two days ago, I put together the sales page, but the information page in a day. And I was like, well, that'll do like, and people were signing up to it because they need it. And I asked my audience, I said, Hey guys, what would you rather, would you rather A, B, C or D? And I had a, D was like all of the above. So I ended up putting together two things and I'm giving it all to, I'm just giving it. It's not, it's not mine to have. It's just knowledge and love that I have to give. So it's,  Kamille: I think that's amazing. I mean, like you said, there, this is, this isn't the first time we've gone through. I mean, I worked in the real estate market. When we, when we here, we're going through like that huge lump in 2000, 2008, where people couldn't sell anything. And like, there's always, there's always going to be hard times. Like we're going to go through this. Maybe it's not all the time. And we've been lucky that things have been getting better, and this is a big one. And, and, but we will go through, there will be things in your business that this happens. And we have to have a certain mindset when we go into this is the perfect time. And even if you don't feel like it, especially if you are right now just tough, tough, you're just stuck. You're stuck hard right now. And you're like, I just can't. I just feel like I can't even show up for my people right now because I do it'll hurt me. Then go be a part of something like Lauren's class and her master class is great, just like I said, this is a perfect time to work on you as well. I'm not saying you just have to be, you're going to be a better mom, wife, husband, whoever you are. You're going to be a better business owner coming out of this, working on yourself as well. So if you are really just stuck and I know some of you really are, it's really hard, not all of us deal with this kind of anxiety and panic the same way. And I understand that. And if you really feel that way, then you guys know I have a ton of support groups. I actually started a support group just for this. Again, this is one of those situations that I'm going to say, you are not alone. Obviously you are not alone. We all are feeling something. Although I, yes, Lauren and I seem a little more grounded in this situation. We're still dealing with things. Lauren: We're still human. Like we still have feelings. Kamille: I mean, there's fears, obviously like my husband is still going to work right now. And I fear that like, he's, I mean, I still have natural fears. I mean, I know that, but I'm just not panicked about it. But if you are, this is a great time for you to join a group, go to a masterclass, be a part of something, and you can be totally not present in it, I mean, not there. You can keep yourself silent, but just be present in it, just be there so that you can, you can truly just take in and help work on these situations. Because again, these will happen again. And I knew someone who you are so strong and you are capable of getting through this. And I don't want this to hinder you because I know that so many of you can come out of this situation stronger and better. Like, I know that somebody who could actually maybe say they say to you, Hey, okay, we can start in your nine to five again. And you're like, screw that. I spend the last two weeks building my business, you know? And like, I'm ready to go. Like, I'm ready to go full into my, my online business. I don't even need you anymore. That feeling is something. I walked away from a nine to five job. I mean, I know what the feeling is to be like, I don't need you anymore. So, I mean, this is, again, this is your time to just kind of at least find your spot, go to masterclass, join one of my support groups. I'm not charging anything for my support group. It is literally just a safe place. Like you said to talk, let's just all hang out. Like I said, and then also it's funny because I have a I have my mastermind and we met on Monday and these women I've been, I've had a mastermind with for months and months, but they're like, here's some other stories, it's just, that's what I'm saying. Like, I was feeling bad for myself and I'm just like, no, I gotta get toilet paper. I'm mad. And then I think like, I think about everyone else and what they're dealing with. And I'm like, Oh my God, I'll deal with it. Lauren: I heard that Kansas has shut down their schools for the rest of the year. Yeah. Because a friend of mine who's in my mastermind. She was telling me yesterday that she was like, Oh, and she's a photographer. So she was like, Oh man, like, I don't know. I don't know how I'm going to my business and stuff because it is something that she has to like to go out. And, but now the interesting thing is now cause I'm putting together, I'm about to launch a master, like a membership site. So now she was like, I'm thinking of doing a membership site for the branding side of my business. And I was like, see, it's something that you've been thinking about beforehand, but now you can actually focus on it. And if your kids are at home, this is a really great time. Like mothers, we really struggle with, especially, mothers who are entrepreneurs. We really struggle with that guilt of like, I have to be here. I have to be here. I have to be this for this person. I have to be this for this person. And like take an hour away and focus on playing with your kids. This is the chance. This is your chance to, it's just an extended weekend. Enjoy it, enjoy this time. Instead of being like, Oh no, like I've got to work on my business and I've got to post this, all this content, like maybe spend an hour a day doing that and then enjoy having your kids around. Because before too long, they're going to be grown up. they're going to be doing their own thing and you're going to be like, man, remember that time that we were locked inside for two weeks. And I just spent the whole time on my computer or just watching Netflix and dreading that time. Like I get it like a year is a really long time. And obviously there's going to have to be some sort of solution in that instance where it's like, well, how are they at? like how are they educating the children? But cause it can't all fall on the parents either, but maybe this is a really great time for you to try homeschooling, that's something that I've actually been thinking about before this. So when they inevitably lock down the schools here and shut down the schools here, I'm going to be using it as a time to trial homeschooling for my children to see how they, how they go with it and how, how it works in our family. Lauren: So it's like, well, it's just another opportunity for you. It's just another way to see if it works or not. And then, yeah, I know. I already know that I'm going to get really frustrated with them because like, as much as I love them, I do like to have some space from them. So I get that. But it's about finding time. So when they go to bed really consciously go, okay, well now I have an hour to myself to, get on and watch a master class or to, YouTube some personal development or, scroll my social media and unfollow anyone that's causing mass hysteria. And anyone who's saying, like the sky is falling, just unfollow them. They're not gonna, like they're not even going to notice. They're too busy, like worrying about the end of the world. Like they're not, they're not going to care, but stop, find, follow, find people to follow who inspire you, who, who are teaching the things that you want to learn right now and use this time to, to grow. And then, these are the ashes we are, we are sitting in the ashes right now. We are the Phoenix's ready to rise and it's just about getting ready. it's just about getting ready to rise from the ashes. So, right now we are in the burn stage where, and we're searing off all the stuff that doesn't serve us anymore. Kamille: I, it's been raining in California. It rains like three times a year. And I was saying that the other day, if someone was being, like, Oh my God, the rain is just a symbol of how the world is just like, it feels like it's just a cleansing of like, everything we're just not supposed to have here anymore. Like, it's just everything, like you said in mother nature is just kind of telling us, like, we need some kind of change. We need something. Maybe this is a drastic thing to happen, but like you said earlier, people complain about their 9-5, well here you go. Like, here are your opportunities. And I was like, like I said, here in California, it never rains for like a week straight, like a week. And it's supposed to rain on like I said, never rains that long here. And I was just like, it's just something for me. It's just like, kinda like cleansing everything away is all done. And all of it goes away. Like the world is just gonna be so much cleaner and perfect for us to just go out there and conquer it and that's just like how you feel about the rain right now? And someone said something so negative. They're like, you're weird. And I was just like, but that's how I feel like I just can't see. I don't want to see, like again, I'm not being ignorant or oblivious or naive, but I want to see the best outcome out of it. I hope that families and people that are sick that are quarantined, they do get better. I hope that all of that does, unfortunately people have passed from it. But now that we are doing what we need to do to make sure no more, not more get sick. And hopefully this will be that moment that everyone kind of just comes out their doors. I almost feel like it's going to be a movie, like where the birds are going to be chirping and the sun is going to come out. I just feel like that's what works and you want to be so excited in such a good place for that. That's what I want to be. But now that happens and yes. Am I going to get a little home crazy? Probably. Yes. I mean, I'm someone that's used to going to the gym, going to yoga, getting out. Like I am, even though I work from home, I still get myself out. But like even my walks with my dog, I've appreciated so much more these past couple of days. It's so weird. Like, I'm like, at least I can still do this. like, no one's getting near me. I felt so good. Like the sun came out for a little bit. Like those are just moments that I just want people to like, appreciate. So surround yourself, like you said, there's going to be a lot of negative people and a lot of negative stuff. Getting set out there, surround yourself with people that are going to keep you positive that are going to keep you pushing forward. Getting through this, not sitting in a hole, a panic this entire time. Again, we don't know how long it's going to last. I know that's scary, but do we really want to be sitting in a corner the entire time wrapped up in our toilet paper? That's not where I want any of the people that I have any sort of poise to. I do not want you sitting there. So I know that like you guys go to Lauren's masterclass, I think it's going to be amazing. Anything else you want to say that you want to share with anyone? Any little insight to tell them. And obviously I want them to, I'm going to put your masterclass information. Anything else you'd like to tell everyone before we go? Lauren: Yeah, I think, we don't know how long this is going to go for. We don't know if this is going to be a two week thing or a six month thing, and we are going to be forced to face parts of ourselves that maybe we've hidden from that we've shied away from the shadows within ourselves. And my biggest tip to you is to, in order to invite the light in is to, to work on those shadows, like take this time to work on the shadows, you know? And when, when fear is coming up and when you're, when you're feeling overwhelmed or uncertain and all these negative emotions, like think of all the times that you felt that and work on removing those feelings. And the reason that that Kamille and I are able to, to show up in this capacity is cause we, we started doing the work and we, I guess we were fortunate in a sense that we, we, we didn't we didn't have the freight train come and smack us in the face and say, well, you don't have a choice now, but maybe you were in that position where you're like, Oh my God, like, I've just been listening to these women talk. And I wish I could have more of that view. And I wish I felt a little bit safer and supported in this time. Well, you guys can come to us, we're here for you, we're not just, we're not just supporting ourselves. We're not just, you know we're not just here for ourselves and this isn't in the interest of showing up for our businesses. This is showing up as, as humans and showing up as part of the collective. And it's, it's all about coming together. So you feel, you need the support, you feel that you need just someone to talk to just come out and reach out to me or to Kamille. And we're, we're so open to helping you with our hearts and we have so much to give you guys. So, come to my master class, come hang out, come get my free mini course. I'm not going to pitch you anything. I just literally want to give you guys some love and some support. And if you, if you can't make the master class and you just want to reach out personally, you can just, I'm sure Kamille will share my details with you. You guys can just come and come and talk to me. Like, that's what, that's what I'm here for. Like, I know that, I don't think that I was here for this. Like, I don't think coronavirus is this, like, this thing that was like in the stars that, like, I think that it's it's the way that the world was going, was like getting a little bit crazy. So like we had to have a shift. So, but we, as lightly as we have, we have been training for this our entire life, without even knowing about it, you have been building up to this point, your entire life and in past lives as well, without getting a little too woo woo, like we have been building up to this and you would not be here. You would not be present. You would not be in this space in time if you weren't able to deal with it. So there's lessons here to be learned as lessons and there's things to be there's things to be, to be learned and to, to adopt here. So just be open, just be open to letting the lessons and the light come in. Kamille: And I think there's going to be moments of being uncomfortable. You're going to be in your home, in your own silence at certain points. And yeah, there's only so much TV and stuff that you're going to be able to watch, or it might not. Those shows might not be going again and there is going to be uncomfortableness and it's going to be, there's going to be moments, but these are those moments. Like I know for me, I'm someone that hated to deal with those moments. I did not want to go to meditation or classes where I would have to think of these things. And like you said, it's taken practice. And for me and you, luckily we've been working on these things for a while now and it's come as being entrepreneurs that we've had to learn to deal with this because we would have never been able to even make it this far, if we didn't, and it's going to be uncomfortable with the uncomfortable, it's going to be the greatest part of it, because you're actually going to come out so much stronger and you have so much growth from those uncomfortable moments. I even suggest having those moments, sit in silence with yourself and maybe a journal and or light music, light meditation music in the background and just sit there and see what thoughts come to you. Are they all negative? Do you really need to just sit down and like, be like, okay, wow. Like everything that's negative or do you have things in the back of your mind that are like, trying to tell you you're good, you've got this. those are the, that's what everyone's always telling you journal, meditate, all that stuff. That stuff is what this, this has come down to is like, now you get to do that. And it's good. Uncomfortable is good. So uncomfortable is good. It's scary as hell. And it's awkward and it feels hard. And I'm someone that's like, woo on the go all the time. And like, it's hard. It's hard to do it, but you have to, you have to do it. And it's the perfect time. It's the perfect time we've been on this forever. We can always talk forever. So anyways, I will put all her information, the masterclass information, make sure you go join, my husband's home so my dog's going nuts so I better get off. So yeah, you guys, I'm going to put all the information. Be sure you reach out to us. We're here for you. I know it's weird to reach out to people you don't really know sometimes, but this is, this is the time you can't go. You can't go down the street and just go to Starbucks and hang out. You have, you have to do it online right now. And this is that moment I call it being the zoom calls, being a lean on the shoulder kind of situation right now so come join us and thank you so much for being here, Lauren. Lauren: Thanks for having me, it's been so much fun. Kamille: Thank you guys so much for listening to the Abundant Entrepreneur Podcast. I am so happy you tuned in today. You can take a moment to share this episode with someone that needs to hear it. That would be amazing. Also, if you could head over to iTunes and give me an honest review, that will help me in making this podcast even better for those on their entrepreneurial journey. I want a completely honest review from everything you like to what you want to hear more, because that will only help me make this podcast even better. Again, thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week.

Have you ever wondered who was better, Batman or Spiderman? The Flash or Iron man?! Well luckily this week Lauren and I utilize my journeymen level knowledge, and her absence of super hero knowledge and decide who is the coolest super hero in a March Madness style bracket! Im sure we are going to make a bunch of nerds upset, so direct your angry email towards Lauren… So head on over to iTunes, Spotify, SoundCloud, Stitcher, Podbean, or any other Podcasting platform and check out Episode 85: The One Where Things Get Super…heroed! Link in the Bio! And now also on youtube!   Don't forget to Rate, Subscribe and Review! And if you go to iTunes, rate the podcast and give us a good review, we will mail you a special sticker of The Brew Interviews logo as a thank you! Just be sure to take a screen shot and send it to our email below with your mailing address!   **** Also be sure to check out our new merch!! **** Link below! https://www.redbubble.com/shop/the+brew+interviews   Follow Us On:   Instagram: @thebrewinterviews   Twitter: @brewinterviews   Like us on: Facebook!   Become part of our cult: www.patreon.com/thebrewinterviews   Email us at thebrewinterviews@gmail.com

There's not a lot of good coming out of the current situation affecting the globe, but if there is an upside, it's the rare opportunity to learn from something this unprecedented. Through her work with National Research Group, today's guest Lauren Xandra has been able to study newly-emerging work-from-home behaviours, and how that applies to XR adoption. Alan: Hey everyone, I'm Alan Smithson from the XR for Business Podcast, and today we're speaking with Lauren Xandra, vice president of strategy and innovation at National Research Group, a leading global insights and strategy firm, about the original research on XR, AR, and collaborations in a time of Covid-19. All that more coming up next on the XR for Business Podcast. Lauren, welcome to the show. Lauren: Thank you so much for having me, Alan. Alan: It's my absolute pleasure. I'm in day 22 of my quarantine. Nothing really has changed in my life, because I work from home anyway. So how are you doing? Lauren: I'm doing well. It's a healthy adjustment for me, but it's rather timely that we're here today, because I'm excited to share new research, looking at how different demographics are adapting to our work-from-home reality, and to share some exciting findings that we see in the space with new, broader, addressable audiences for virtual solutions in light of all of this. Alan: Well, the timing on this couldn't be any better. Some dedicated, hard-working people in this industry have banded together this week to pull together an XR Collaboration guide, talking about everything from security to device management to vendor selection to feature lists, and really put a lot of effort into creating a tool online that will give people the opportunity to figure out how these tools can be used for their business or school or education, and which one is the right one for them at the time, for the need they have. And so we're really excited about that, and the information on that will come out on XRCollaboration.com. So, Lauren, please tell me, what is the basis of this study? Lauren: Sure. So, when suddenly millions of people -- seemingly overnight -- became remote workers, we're faced with these huge questions about productivity, state of mind, social and cultural impact of the situation, and the lasting impact, too. We really set out to understand how people are adapting, what pain points are felt across work-from-home, and in doing that, we can better understand and address whitespace to solve for these pain points, to ease our adjustment to this new -- and bizarre -- reality. I'd love to walk you through some of the key findings, perhaps starting with generational differences in adapting, and then perhaps looking at more industry-specific challenges and opportunities. Alan: Sounds wonderful. Let's let's dig in. Lauren: So we see that the pre-Covid-19 context really impacts different generations' concerns and expectations for the future. Probably one of the most counterintuitive insights is that the youngest in the workforce is actually the least well-equipped for work-from-home. The digital reliance of this generation already makes them victims of social distance pre-Covid-19, and for them, the effects of isolation are amplified. The impact of Covid-19 on culture is really their front-of-mind concern. And here we're thinking about culture in terms of how we connect, how we collaborate. Gen Z has really struggled to disconnect from technology. They're citing irritation from too much screentime, bad work/life balance, well ahead of other groups. And this impacts mental health, with already about half of Gen Z professionals saying that staying

There’s not a lot of good coming out of the current situation affecting the globe, but if there is an upside, it’s the rare opportunity to learn from something this unprecedented. Through her work with National Research Group, today’s guest Lauren Xandra has been able to study newly-emerging work-from-home behaviours, and how that applies to XR adoption. Alan: Hey everyone, I'm Alan Smithson from the XR for Business Podcast, and today we're speaking with Lauren Xandra, vice president of strategy and innovation at National Research Group, a leading global insights and strategy firm, about the original research on XR, AR, and collaborations in a time of Covid-19. All that more coming up next on the XR for Business Podcast. Lauren, welcome to the show. Lauren: Thank you so much for having me, Alan. Alan: It's my absolute pleasure. I'm in day 22 of my quarantine. Nothing really has changed in my life, because I work from home anyway. So how are you doing? Lauren: I'm doing well. It's a healthy adjustment for me, but it's rather timely that we're here today, because I'm excited to share new research, looking at how different demographics are adapting to our work-from-home reality, and to share some exciting findings that we see in the space with new, broader, addressable audiences for virtual solutions in light of all of this. Alan: Well, the timing on this couldn't be any better. Some dedicated, hard-working people in this industry have banded together this week to pull together an XR Collaboration guide, talking about everything from security to device management to vendor selection to feature lists, and really put a lot of effort into creating a tool online that will give people the opportunity to figure out how these tools can be used for their business or school or education, and which one is the right one for them at the time, for the need they have. And so we're really excited about that, and the information on that will come out on XRCollaboration.com. So, Lauren, please tell me, what is the basis of this study? Lauren: Sure. So, when suddenly millions of people -- seemingly overnight -- became remote workers, we're faced with these huge questions about productivity, state of mind, social and cultural impact of the situation, and the lasting impact, too. We really set out to understand how people are adapting, what pain points are felt across work-from-home, and in doing that, we can better understand and address whitespace to solve for these pain points, to ease our adjustment to this new -- and bizarre -- reality. I'd love to walk you through some of the key findings, perhaps starting with generational differences in adapting, and then perhaps looking at more industry-specific challenges and opportunities. Alan: Sounds wonderful. Let's let's dig in. Lauren: So we see that the pre-Covid-19 context really impacts different generations' concerns and expectations for the future. Probably one of the most counterintuitive insights is that the youngest in the workforce is actually the least well-equipped for work-from-home. The digital reliance of this generation already makes them victims of social distance pre-Covid-19, and for them, the effects of isolation are amplified. The impact of Covid-19 on culture is really their front-of-mind concern. And here we're thinking about culture in terms of how we connect, how we collaborate. Gen Z has really struggled to disconnect from technology. They're citing irritation from too much screentime, bad work/life balance, well ahead of other groups. And this impacts mental health, with already about half of Gen Z professionals saying that staying

Can you really control your weight? There are two schools of thought on this: one believes that nothing is within our control and the other believes everything is within our control. But what if the truth is somewhere in the middle? Annie and Lauren explore just how much control we have over our weight and provide helpful perspective on an age-old question. What you’ll hear in this episode: What studies say about how much genes influence weight What studies say about how much genes influence height Twin Studies, The Secrets of The Eating Lab and The Minnesota Starvation Experiment How we adjust our eating when we feel we are being observed The two camps: we can control all the things and we can control none of the things How much control do we really have over our weight? How your body responds to decreases in calories Ideal weight vs ideal weight range What happens when you try to “pause” on an escalator Process versus outcome goals How weight range relates to body composition Getting clear on your goals How your pre-disposed body type relates to your weight How to find your weight range     Resources: 53: Secrets From The Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann Secrets From the Eating Lab Episode 9: Two Sisters, Two Bodies: Growing Up Together In A Body Obsessed World Episode 4: What A 70-year-old Starvation Experiment Taught Us About Dieting Body Respect Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript: Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host, Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balanced365 together we coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio. Before we dive into today's topic, I want to share a super sweet review we got on iTunes last week from Blonde Lauren, which I promise it's not our Blonde Lauren. She says "This podcast is nothing short of life-changing. With all the negative information and images thrown at women in regards to our bodies this podcast is like a ray of sunshine. I listen to this podcast religiously as I walk the neighborhood and it always puts a smile on my face and helps me conquer the day. Jennifer, Annie and Lauren are so relatable and I feel like we were really friends and I just love that." Thank you so much. To everyone who takes the time to drop us a note in our email inboxes or leaves us a review on iTunes, we read them all and they all mean so much to us. Okay. Let's talk about today's episode. We have been talking about this topic in a roundabout way on previous podcasts, but we wanted to dive a little bit deeper into the topic. Can you control your weight? A lot of fitness professionals think you have all the control while some of them think this is a losing battle, why even try? On today's episode, Lauren and I discussed how much control you really have over your weight and I think you might be surprised. Enjoy! Lauren, how are you? Lauren: Good. It's us again. Annie: It's just us again, poor Jen is having some audio difficulties and she wanted to be here, but we are sticklers for sound quality on our podcast and it just wasn't gonna cut it, right? Lauren: Yes. She likes to compare her sound now to my sound when mine wasn't working because she thinks it was terrible. Annie: Well, you know, we've had this, I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, but sound quality. And I thought when we started this podcast, like you would just plug in a microphone and hit record and then you just piece it together. Lauren: I feel like it should not be this hard. It's really fun for us. Annie: It's really hard and especially because you and I have both moved and, maybe Jen's even moved, but when you move, like then you're changing a different recording location and that can affect the acoustics and so, yeah. Lauren: And then the technology on top of all that, sometimes it just does not work out. Annie: Yeah. But we're not complaining Lauren: It might sound that way. Annie: We actually, I really enjoy the podcast. I really, really enjoy doing it. But it's just been a little bit more difficult than we anticipated. So, and especially getting the three of us together in three time zones, like, you know. Lauren: There's always some disaster. Annie: Always. Lauren: The morning of recording. School's canceled or sick, a kid is sick or the heat went out, but we always figure it out. Annie: Yeah. We piece it together. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: We're scrappy in a good way. So we're talking about a really interesting topic and it comes up pretty frequently in our community and that is, can you control your weight? And I think it's really interesting because it seems like there's kind of varying answers to that question and it kind of depends on who you ask. But there's this idea that we can control everything, right? And we can absolutely control our weight. We have total control. On the other side of the spectrum there's this like, "No, you don't." There's people that say you don't have any control at all. You don't need to bother with trying to control your weight or manage your weight. It's just, it is what it is and you're just stuck with it. Whatever it's at and we wanted to dive into like what the real answer is. Do you have any control of your weight? And it's something that we've kind of, I feel like, talked about in a roundabout way with various guests on the podcast, but we haven't specifically addressed like this. Lauren: Right. This one question. Annie: Yeah. And on paper it seems to boil down to simple math, right? Which I think is where we get kind of the, "Yes, you can control everything about your body and your weight." It's "Eat fewer calories than you consume and weight loss will happen," right? And you'll get the desired outcome. And we have- Lauren: And we talk about that too, right? Like we talk about its weight loss does come down to calories in versus calories out, but that's not the whole story. Annie: Right. And we have professionals in our industry that will say that you just need dedication and self control and commitment and then you can have the body of your dreams, right? Like, whatever, whatever body you want, which I think is where we see a lot of the, I don't know if this is still a thing, I don't actually read these sorts of magazines anymore, but at one time, health and fitness magazines used to have like a celebrity on the cover of their magazine. It was like, here's the Jennifer Aniston Diet, or here's the Jennifer Garner diet or whatever. And I used to think like, "Oh, if I just eat what she eats, if I work out, like she works out, then I will then look like Jennifer Aniston. Lauren: Right. And, I can't remember her name. Do you remember the actress's name from that movie? Zack and Miri? Annie: I don't even know that movie. Lauren: Okay. It's a funny movie. I can't say the whole name of it because it's not appropriate. But she was on the Ellen show and, they were showing a picture of her own magazine and talking about like what she eats or whatever. And she was like, you know, it doesn't matter what I eat, this is genetics. Like, this is what I would look like regardless. I would look pretty similar to this. Annie: Right. Lauren: So, you know, people are congratulating her and she's like, "I didn't do anything special. This is just how I'm built." Annie: Yeah, exactly. But you're jumping ahead of the outline. Lauren: Oh, I'm sorry. Annie: Okay. I guess we can sign off now. No, we'll use that as a great segue because it does, it sounds really easy on paper that if you just do what she's doing or, you know, I think, yeah, I get questions, you know, like about my arms. Like what, what arm workouts are you doing? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: It's genetics. Like, maybe years of softball has played into this but it's where I carry my fat. It's how easily I build muscle. And, I think, it's known that our genes control or have an effect on our weight, but it's a little bit, we've been a little bit gray on how much control. Lauren: Right? So we have, like you said, the two camps, the "you have total control" and "you have no control." And surprise surprise, we fall somewhere in the middle. Annie: Yeah. And if you listen to Traci Mann's podcast, which if you haven't listened to it, we'll link it in the show notes. It is a wonderful podcast. She is just a wonderful woman professionally and personally. She's just a good human. She wrote the book The Secrets of the Eating Lab and inside there she compared, she shared a study and it compared the weight of more than 500 adopted children with their biological parents and their adoptive parents. And so this, the idea behind the study was that if learned eating habits, if you could just willpower and self control and you know, do all the things, if learned eating habits have more of an impact on weight then the children should have a weight that mirrors more like their adoptive parents and if genetics had more of an impact, then it should, their weight should be closer correlated to their biological, their birth parents. But what they found was that the children's weight correlated strongly with the weight of their biological parents and not all with the weight of their adoptive parents, which I think is fascinating. Lauren: It is fascinating. Annie: And additionally, a study also she shared in the science, studies, Secrets from the Eating Lab, study from the Secrets of the Eating Lab. They did a study of identical twins that were raised in separate homes, which I think is like interesting enough that there's twins that were raised separately enough to study. Lauren: Can we get the story behind that please? Annie: But there is, there were enough studies, as a way to make sure that they didn't share the same eating environment. Right. So it was a way to tease out that environment was a role in this study. The study looked at 93 pairs of identical twins raised apart and then a 154 pairs of twins raised together. And the results showed that the weights of the twins, whether they were raised together or apart were highly correlated, which again goes to show that our genetics, our biology has a large impact on our weight and those studies and in addition with some other studies what largely contributed, to scientists concluding that our genes account for about 70% of the variation in people's weight. Lauren: Right. Which is huge. Annie: Which is, yeah, which is huge and I don't know, some of you may be listening in and think that that's way more than you anticipated and some people will be like, "Oh maybe I have a little bit more control than I thought." Like it kind of depends on where you fell on that spectrum. If you were like, I can control all the things and, and get whatever body I want if I just have enough self willpower and dedication and self control, this might be shocking news for you. On the flip side, if you were like, I don't have any control, I'm stuck. I come from a long line of people that look like x, y, z. This is just as is what it is. You might have a little bit more wiggle room than you thought. Lauren: Right. So you have about 30% of your body weight is in your control. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Is what this is basically saying. Annie: And what I think is interesting about this is, Traci Mann also shares, I mean obviously we're not researchers, we're not scientists. So we're pulling this information because we are evidenced based. We don't want to just feed you information because it sounds convenient or because it works for our philosophy or our brand. But for reference she also compare us that genes play about an 80% role in height. And I think that's such an interesting study because you don't see anyone being like, "Oh, I just wish I could, if I just had more self control or willpower, I'd be taller." Lauren: I could get taller. Annie: Yeah. But so often we see people talking about their weights like that. Like, "Ah, I just, I need to quit being lazy or I just need to get my butt to the gym. And then I, you know, I'd get rid of this, you know, fat on my hips or whatever," you know, but you don't hear people talking about their weight or their height, like they do their weight, but it's pretty comparable in how much control we have. Lauren: Right, right. A little less in height. But still really close. Annie: Like you're not over there trying to be taller. Lauren: No- Annie: I mean, maybe heels. Lauren: It's interesting that both of my parents are relatively tall and both of my sisters are, well, they're all like more average size and I am smaller. Don't know where that came from, but it did come from somewhere. Annie: Yeah. Well, and you know, we kind of talked about this, how genetics in the two sisters podcasts where we had Janelle and Jen, cofounder Jen, had her sister on and they have very different body types and they were just, they had a really beautiful story about how Jenelle looked like all the women on one side of the family. And Jen looks more like all the women on the other side of the family. And I just, I think there's a lot of beauty in looking at your family tree and like seeing that. It's not just like body parts, it's like seeing your grandmother, your aunt, your sister, like elements of them. And I think that's just beautiful. Lauren: Not to throw a wrench into this discussion either, but now there is, sort of, more relatively new study called epigenetics, which is like how your environment can turn on or off certain genes, which is also really interesting and I'd love to, I haven't looked into this yet, but I'd love to kind of look into that too that aspect and that might be the 30% that you can control, right. I'm just making that up, but it's something to consider. Annie: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That is, I've never, I don't even think I've heard of that term, to be honest. So I'm curious to learn more about that. Lauren: You know, it's relatively new. I think it's, they're learning more and more about it but there is some studies out there. Annie: Fascinating. Lauren: Yeah. Cause we have, we have a lot of genes and different things determine which genes get turned on and which genes don't. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Just a little side note. Annie: Interesting. And I feel like I'm now distracted by that. Lauren: I'm sorry. Annie: Refocus. So our genes, just to recap that first point there, our genes have accounted for about 70% of the variation in people's weight. So, again, that's just saying that our biology, our genetics make up a lot of, determine a lot of how we weigh or what we weigh. But that doesn't mean that you're totally out of control. But additionally, our genes can even control how much weight we gain. And this was another study from the Secrets From the Eating Lab that there was even studies where participants were fed the same amount of calories, and the twins gained varying amounts of weight for it. So for example, pairs of twins that were overfed by a thousand calories. Again, if this boiled down to just math, if it worked out on paper, you know, a thousand calories equals this percentage of pounds of body mass gain a week, they should have all gained the same amount of weight. But what happened, pairs of twins that were overfed by a thousand calories a day gain to anywhere from nine to 29 pounds. So in other words, we aren't in conscious control of how our bodies use calories or energy, which I think is fascinating. And you know, if you're listening to this and you feel like I hear this a lot, women comparing like what they eat to their girlfriends or what they eat to the men in their lives and it's like, "Oh, I feel like I look at a Snickers and I gain weight" or you know, "My husband has trouble." I just met with a personal training client yesterday and she actually is having trouble putting on weight and I'm sitting here on the opposite end of the spectrum. Like, I have no problem putting on weight, it seems. Lauren: Right. Annie: And so I just think that that's again to show that our genes can even control how easily we gain weight, lose weight, put on muscle mass, don't gain muscle mass. Lauren: It's super interesting too because we are still learning about how all of this works. Like even now, researchers are still asking questions and they still don't know everything about how all these genes play into weight and metabolism and metabolic rates do differ between people. I think it's, it's not as significant as maybe some people have been led to believe, like if someone has a fast metabolism but it can differ a little bit. Annie: Right. Lauren: Which is what's happening probably with, you know, your client who can't gain weight. Annie: Yeah. And there's so many factors to be considered like environment and like what they do for their, what their, like, habits are, and how their relationship with food and their relationship with exercise. So it's like oftentimes multifactorial. But in the studies of these two are really interesting, especially because we've talked about, we have another podcast, The Minnesota Starvation Experiment, you know, studies like that just aren't even allowed anymore because they're considered unethical. Like, and it can be hard to study people's eating habits. And Traci Mann talks about this in her book because the minute people think that their eating habits are being studied, they change their eating habits. They like get all self conscious and they start doing different things that they wouldn't normally do if they didn't think that they were being watched for eating. I mean, I do that when, like, when I'm out and I feel like, you know, all of a sudden I'm at this nice restaurant or whatever and I think people are looking at me, I'm like, "Oh, I better put my napkin on my lap and not spill and use the right fork and put my fork down between every bite. Breathe. Not just inhale all my food. Annie: Anyways, getting back to our genes. Lauren, this is something you've talked about a lot in our workshops and our podcasts and our program, but that your body has a pretty kick butt weight regulation system and that can often override conscious efforts to change your weight. So for example, you cut calories, your body may in response slow your metabolism, resulting in fewer calories burned or you ramp up exercise and your body secretes hormones to increase hunger, which happens to me all the time. Like I exercise, I actually get hungrier. And so I often eat more and you've talked about that before, that your body's like pretty smart like that. Lauren: Yeah. Well your body, its main goal is to keep you alive, right? And so when you cut calories or you're not eating as much, or cut calories drastically, I should say, because that's what most fad diets do, your body thinks that you're starving. It doesn't know that you are doing that on purpose and that you're going on a diet. And so it does everything in its power to help conserve what energy you have and get you to eat more calorie dense foods. So that's another big reason why you crave high energy foods when you cut calories, you know, because your body wants that energy. Annie: Exactly. And many dieters, I know I've experienced this, I'm sure you have too, have maybe experienced a feeling like your body doesn't want you to lose weight. Like you're fighting against your body and it usually looks like something like this. You cut calories, you experience some excitement and exhilaration of initial weight loss and that's followed by an increased drive to eat and/or not move as intensely as you have been, which leads to weight regain because you go back to eating the food you were eating or not moving as much. And then that's followed by guilt and maybe even this sense of hopelessness. And that's something that Linda Bacon talks about in Body Respect, which is another wonderful book if you haven't read that and she just note that that's because you can only cheat biology so long. Like as you were talking about, your body is trying to, it cares about you a lot. it wants to keep you alive. Lauren: And that's like the unconscious part of ourselves. I think it's the reptilian, it might be the reptilian part of the brain, right, that controls that. And so you literally don't have control over those things. Annie: Right. And Linda Bacon has this, I think it's really kind of refreshing, it feels like it just takes the pressure off of me personally. But she has the quote in her book, again, Body Respect that "Diet failure is no more a sign of gluttony or lack of character than breathing deeply after exertion indicates lung failure or shivering in the cold weather evidences weakness." Like that's, this is the desire to eat, the desire to not move as intensely, the weight regain, that is all what exactly what we would expect from someone that's dieting, that's trying to cut calories. This is what your body is made to do and it's trying to do this because it's what it thinks is best for you. And it's a normal and expected response. So, I guess what we're just kind of boiling this all down to say is that you might not have as much control as you, some people lead you to believe. And what we talked about in the Traci Mann podcasts was that you have a little room, a little wiggle room, and one of the things that she suggests, because I know some of you might be listening and thinking like, "Crap, I wish I had more control over my weight" and we don't want you to feel discouraged from making changes if that's what you decide. But Traci Mann really encourages people to have a weight range versus a specific weight. And, I think that that's a really great idea because so often we hear women that they have this like ideal weight and that ideal weight is pulled out of thin air. It might be their pre-pregnancy weight, the weight when they got married, the weight they graduated high school. It might not even be realistic. And to think that your body can sit at one stable weight throughout the day, the week, the month, the year is just not attainable. That your weight ebbs and flows throughout again, the day, the week, I mean, if I weighed myself in the morning versus night versus Monday versus Friday versus the first of the month versus the end of the month, I would probably get six different body weights. Right. And it could range, you know, and you know, fluctuate five, six, seven pounds. And that this is normal and especially seasons of life, you know, if you're, you've got to, you've just given birth or you know, maybe it's winter and you're not as active, you're not outside as much. Your schedule is really busy because you're an accountant and it's tax season and you're working more and not hitting the gym as much. It's normal. And for this reason, a range seems to be a lot more realistic versus maintaining a single number throughout the year. Lauren: Yeah. So if you just kind of are aware but also going with the flow, like if your weight is up five pounds or down five pounds and just being okay with it instead of again pulling back that pendulum cause that's going to start that extreme pendulum swing over again. If you can just, like Jen says in our workshop that we do, in her Mario Kart example, if you can just move the wheel slightly to the right or to the left instead of extremely turning right or left, you'll be much better off. And also, Traci Mann also talks about this weight range. So there's a certain weight or there seems to be for people a certain weight that is dependent, like we said on many different things that if you go below that, that's when all of those biological changes start happening. Like your appetite increases and your metabolism starts to slow down to conserve some energy. So instead of, she says there's a weight range that your body is comfortable at and you can make changes to get to the lower end of that weight range. And so that's where you have, that's where you can control. So you can't control exactly what rate, but you can control where in that range you say. Annie: And the beautiful thing about that weight range is when you find it, you'll often find that it feels effortless to maintain or that you don't have to work near- Lauren: or close to Annie: -as hard. You have the perfect analogy in our workshop, that we share every now and then about riding an escalator. And when you're dieting hard, when you're trying really hard to maintain a weight that's below that range, it often feels like you're riding, trying to go up a down escalator and like, you're working, working, working, working, working. And the minute you want to take a break or rest or hit pause, it's like you're right back to where you started. And the idea is that when you find that range, you can move it around, give or take a little bit, but it's not like exerting all of your effort, all of your brain power, all of your energy to achieve this weight, either above or below that range. Because she also found in that book, she also found that the opposite was true to that getting people to gain weight out of their range was also equally as difficult as trying to get them to live below the range. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So with that being said, another suggestion we have in addition to the weight range versus a specific weight is to focus on your health behaviors versus weight. And, we've said this for a while, that your weight is not a behavior and for so many reasons we can't always control our weight and trying to do so is really, really difficult. And one of the things Jen talks about too is a lot of this can boil down to are you valuing your weight or are you valuing thinness or are you valuing health? And, you know, and again, no judgment Annie: There's been, I spent a lot of my life valuing thinness. I wanted, I didn't care if I was healthy, I wasn't even thinking if I was healthy or what I was doing, the behaviors I was utilizing, the tools I was utilizing to get to a certain weight was healthy if it was sustainable. I wasn't really even concerned with that. I just was so focused on getting that weight or getting that look, my body to look a certain way that I kind of forgot about health unfortunately. And again, I could just, I have a girl crush on Traci Mann, I could just talk about her all day but at the end of that podcast, she encourages that if you're eating balanced meals most of the time, not getting too full, you're not under eating, you're exercising a little bit throughout the week, you're managing your stress that whatever weight you find yourself at doing those things is good enough. And I think that, like, gives me like a, almost, I can almost breathe like a big deep breath, like a sigh of relief. Like I don't have to do all of these things and then I'm validated by reaching that goal weight that like, "Okay, I did enough." It's like, well, let's focus on what, like, actually our behaviors are and if those encourage health, then we're on the right track regardless of what we weigh. Lauren: Right. When I was at my thinnest, my behaviors were not healthy. Annie: Right. Lauren: And when I was at my heaviest, my behaviors were not healthy. Annie: Right. Lauren: So, you know, focusing on those healthy behaviors, I have settled in the middle. Annie: Yeah. And, you know, one of the ways, we've talked about this before, one of the ways, I think the easiest ways to kind of what we're talking about almost is process versus outcome goals. And a lot of times women have outcome goals. They want to be the size eight. They want to be the size four, they want to be 130 pounds, 150 pounds, whatever it is. And those are all outcome based goals, which are fine. But I think what's really, really a key is to, if that's a goal of yours, to also think about how you're going to get there and write goals around the how. So okay, you want to run a marathon? Like how am I going to get there? You want to drop 10 pounds, how am I going to get there? The how is the behaviors. Lauren: Right? And if you're in our Balance365 program, you'll notice that that's how we set up our program, right? So when you're checking off your habits, that is a process based goal. So you're checking off whether you had that, you know, half plate of vegetables or quarter plate of vegetables or whatever your goal is, you're going to check off if you did whatever your movement goal is. And those are process goals and not outcome goals. Annie: Yeah. And those are things that we can control more often than not. Lauren: Right. Annie: Versus our weight. Like I can do all the right things and for whatever reason, still not hit that goal weight. And I see that happen a lot. We see that happen a lot where women are exercising, they're eating some more fruits and vegetables, they're getting more sleep and they step on the scale and their weight hasn't budged and they feel like deflated. They're like, "Ugh, this was worthless. I didn't do anything. I'm not any further along towards my goal." And it's like, "Wait a minute, you're exercising, you're eating fruits and vegetables, you're sleeping more, you're doing all these really great things for your health and your body. Like, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because you didn't lose a pound." Lauren: Right. Annie: The last point I want to make when it comes to, can you control your weight? And I just, this has been absolute ultimate freedom for me is to accept the body type you have and work with it, not against this. And we oftentimes make the comparison between Jen's body and my body because Jen and I are pretty close in age. We've both had three babies. We're both personal trainers. We're about the same height, but there is probably, I don't know what she weighs now, but, there's probably about 50 pounds, 40, 50 pound difference between the two of us and for Jen to look like me or for me to look like Jen is just, like, ridiculous to think that that could happen. That's kind of what, going back to what we were talking about it at the beginning of the podcast about, you know, to think that I could just diet like Jennifer Aniston and therefore look like Jennifer Aniston is just absurd. Right? Lauren: Right. Yes. Annie: But honestly, this has given me, accepting my body type has given me so much peace of mind and like, I can just own my big thighs and my broad shoulders and I don't feel like I have to, like, whittle them down because I'm not, like, I'm not going to, I can, again, like Traci Mann says, I can maybe be a little bit heavier, a little bit lighter within that range. I'm still going to have thick thighs. Like it just, you know, and for a girl that her first diet and exercise book was Thin Thighs. Like, that's all I've ever wanted was the long lean legs. My mom had long, beautiful lean legs and I was like, "Why didn't I? Why did I get my dad's legs?" But now that I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to have thick thighs and that's just the way it is and this is what works for my body and Oh, guess what? They can actually be a really powerful asset in the gym. And these are some aspects that I like about them." I don't love everything about them. That's okay. But again, like I don't love everything about my kids all the time. I still love them. Lauren: Right. Annie: It's like, it doesn't have to, like, you don't have to love every single aspect of your body to love it as a whole, which is something we've also talked about. But, making peace with like, "Okay, I've got a big nose or I've got small hands or big trap," I don't know, whatever it is that you feel like you've been working to fight, like, making peace with that has been really, really impactful in my body acceptance journey. Lauren: Yeah. And one thing I want to circle back to because, I was going to mention this too and you mentioned it and I think it can be really powerful for people, is taking your body type, right? Cause like we have mentioned multiple times in this podcast, you can change a range of your body, your body fat, your weight, but you're not going to change your body type, like that is not going to change. So looking at your body type and think you can think about like, okay, so what is with this body type? Like what am I going to be good at? What does my body type give me an advantage in? And like for Annie, that's like weightlifting and powerlifting and being strong and so you can look at what is that for you. And it might help with this acceptance piece and this body love piece because it's not all about what you look like, but at the same time being, having your body help you be good at something can be really empowering too. Annie: Yeah. That's, we say when you look at your body like an instrument instead of an ornament. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: You know, what? Like, okay, what does, you know and being grateful for what my body does allow me to do or can help me do, can also be really, really special. But, I think that that's, you know, there's a lot of ways you can work on self love and body acceptance, but, that has been really, really powerful for me to just say like, "This is my body and it's, you know, maybe not what I've spent a lot of my years working towards. But like it's, it's still pretty great. It's not better or worse than any other type of, than your body, then Jen's body, than Jennifer Aniston's body, like this is my body and I'm going to take care of it the best way I can, like, thick thighs and all. Lauren: And you know, it's, it's funny because there are a lot of women out there who idolize your body type. Annie: I know. Yeah. That's been, so people, the funny thing is, is this happens to me a lot, which I love, I'm appreciative, but women will comment on the things that like I feel the most self conscious about. You know, like, oh, I, you know, or the funny thing is about my arms. I'll get a lot of comments about my arms. And it's like, well, if you look at the back of my arms, they're covered in stretch marks and it's, which I'm fine with. I again, I've made peace with, it's like I had stretch marks way before pregnancy. I had stretch marks on my arms and my hips when I hit puberty, I just, you know, just genetics and growing and- Lauren: I do too, I have them on my legs. Annie: Yeah. And I think it's just so interesting. And I do this to other women. Women can see beauty in my body or find appreciation in my body or aspects of my body. And then the same elements on their body, they hate on, they berate themselves, they have shame about, and it's like, "Hey, you know what? We all have a lot more in common than we probably think we do stretch marks and cellulite and pimples and gray hairs and wrinkles. And should I keep going?" Lauren: All of it. It's all normal. Annie: It is all normal. If you have a body, you probably have a lot of that or all of it. Some of it. If you have none of it, then that's cool too. Lauren: That's fine too. We love all bodies. Annie: We do. We are pretty inclusive here. So anyways, so I just want to recap. You know, it boils down to what Secrets from the Eating Lab Traci Mann showed, that Linda Bacon and Body Respect has done some extensive research on is that our genes and biology play a pretty big role in our weight. And it's not as simple as you can control it all and you can have the body you want. It's not as simple as you don't have any control at all. It's somewhere in the middle. And what we would encourage you to do is find the weight range that you can live your best life at, your healthiest life at, where you aren't working tirelessly to, you know, maintain a certain weight that's above or below that weight range that allows you to do the things, the activities, the behaviors that you want to do and feel good about yourself. Lauren: Can I add one more little thing? Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Can we talk for just a second about body composition changes? Because this is a hunch I have because I don't think any studies have been done. I asked Doctor Traci Mann on that podcast, and I don't, I don't know of any studies that have been done, but this weight range seems to be not totally, like it's weight, right? It's not just like a fat percentage range, right? Like we have seen people change their body composition and their weight stays the same. And, so I was talking with someone in our Balance365 program last week, who was worried about working to, she wanted to lose weight for many reasons and different reasons, health reasons, and just not feeling comfortable in her body, right. And, but she was put off by this whole weight range topic. Like "Should I even bother?" Was like the kind of talk we were having. And one thing is acceptance, doing your healthy habits, your behavior-based goals. And then also I think for a lot of people, something really important is building muscle, is keeping your muscle. And I know Annie you have experienced with that, even more than I do if you want to just talk about that. Annie: Yeah. Well, my weight range, has, I guess since since I've quit dieting, which has been six, seven years, it's been a process of over the course of six, seven years, has stayed probably within 10 pounds. But I think, I've also had, you know, some babies in there, my body composition within that 10 pounds has changed pretty dramatically. And, you know, I attribute, so when Dr Traci Mann is talking about a weight range, I feel like that is absolutely me. For me to drop below my, that 10 pound weight range, it takes a lot, a lot of effort and I cannot sustain, I've tried it many times, just more just as an experiment. I've had some performance goals that I've had a hunch that maybe if I were a little bit lighter doing things like Crossfit, gymnastics would come more easily. I just can't do it. Like, and I shouldn't say I can't, I'm not willing to, to make the sacrifices and the changes that would go along with achieving that weight loss, at least not in this point in time. And I say that very objectively, I'm not, I'm not emotionally tied to my weight anymore. But my body composition has changed quite a bit. And I would say, although my weight is in the same range, my body looks different. I have considerably more muscle and less fat. Lauren: And I would echo that too. I'm about almost a year and a half postpartum and I am sort of getting to the lower end of my weight range. Like I can just tell based on my past experiences and you know, and, but my composition is different because I have not been working out as much as before I got pregnant. Right. Because I had a baby and a lot of things have changed and I've been doing the minimum exercise that, you know, I've just been doing what I can and that's good enough for me. But I know that if I want those body composition changes, it's not going to be me losing more weight. It's going to be me adding more muscle, pretty much. Annie: Yeah, absolutely. Which, you know, just in my experience when a lot of women come to me and they say they want to lose weight or they want to look more muscular or they want to look like they lift, that's something I hear common. You know, I just, I want to look like I lift, I want to have more muscle. What they mean is they want more muscle, less fat, not even necessarily weight loss. They and that's, you know, to each their own. But that's me, that's, you know, I really don't care what the scale weight says. I want to be able to do the things that I want to do in the gym and do the activities that allow me to play with my kids and go skiing and, you know, have the stamina and the energy and do fun tricks to with the kettlebell. Lauren: Yes, that's the best part. Annie: One arm push ups maybe eventually. But yeah. So, but I think that's just getting clear on what you really mean, you know, when you're talking about like, if the scale said x amount of weight, would that really change anything if you look the same or, you know? Lauren: No. Annie: Yeah, it wouldn't. Yeah, that's a good point. Lauren: Yeah. So I just wanted to add that little caveat because I've heard people in the interwebs, I've read conversations about this being a negative thing, right? This set weight range and it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a negative thing. One, It gives you a lot of freedom, right? When you realize, like you had said, it's not all on you, like you can try as hard as you can try, but you're not going to change your body type. But also you can, even though if you may not be able to change your weight any further, you can change your body composition if that's a goal of yours. Annie: Absolutely. And yeah, I really side on the, like, if you feel like you've been dieting and your body is really, like, fighting you because it's, you feel like you're hungry all the time or you don't have a desire to get up and move or exercise because you don't have any energy or your sleep is crap. Like these are things that we would expect and that's normal. And to me that's like, "Oh good. It's not me. It's everyone. It's, like, I'm not just lazy. I'm not just weak. I don't need more self self discipline or willpower." Like, that's, you know, I think that's honestly, I think that that's as a fitness professional, I think that's a lazy excuse to tell a client like, "Oh, this is your fault. You know, you did this, you just need to be more dedicated. You just need more willpower." It's like, if that's the only solution or the only answer I have for someone that's coming to me with some goals, that's like, I'm not a good coach. Lauren: Right. And this is where, you know, education comes in, right? Because for that specific, you know, for that personal trainer, it may be easy for them, right? Because that's their genetics and that's their weight range that they can easily maintain. But that doesn't mean that that's true for everyone else. Annie: Or fitness and food are their profession. And- Lauren: and they work tirelessly. Annie: They work tirelessly to be in the gym and they get a lot of movement because they're, you know, in the gym, from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM working and helping people exercise and their environment is curated to support those goals. You know, that's, I would try to be really cautious about how I talk about my exercise because, you know, I find myself just with my job in the gym multiple times a week. So it's easy for me to show up 30 minutes early and get a quick workout. It's not like that for everyone. You know, I have a little bit of a leg up just because of my profession. Lauren: Right? Annie: Yeah. All right, good talk. This was good. Lauren: Good talk. Annie: Good chat. Lauren: We got a little off track, but- Annie: Well, let's, no, you know, sometimes it goes sideways but I think- Lauren: Hopefully they enjoy the conversation. Annie: Yeah. Well yeah, I mean if they made it this far. Lauren: Congratulations to you! Annie: You win! If you want to continue the discussion, if you want to, you know, revisit the podcast with Traci Mann, we did ask her like, "Okay, how do you find this weight range that's right for you?" And really what she's offered was trial and error. It was like, it's really person specific. There's no, like we can't offer a flow chart, you know, like, is this, you know, is this yes or no? That would be really cool if we could, but if you want help navigating and exploring like "Am I in a weight range that's comfortable for me?" Maybe it's a little bit higher than you thought or you want to move to the lower end of that weight range and you need some help with your habits and your behaviors. Please join us in our free Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms, we'd love to help you. There's a lot of really great women in there, we're in there. Lauren, Jen and I are in there often answering questions and we'd love to see you in there to continue with the discussion. Yeah? Lauren: Yes, please. Annie: Yeah. Alright. Thanks, Lauren. We'll talk to you later. Lauren: Alright, bye.

In today’s episode, Annie and Lauren guide us through five easy ways to simplify a fitness routine. So often we overcomplicate things and that leads to no workouts at all. It doesn’t have to be that way! With these practical tips you can make working out a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable. What you’ll hear in this episode: How we overthink food and exercise Does a workout need to be sweaty and exhausting to be effective? How to get started if you aren’t moving at all NEAT - what is it and why does it matter? Muscle confusion - is it real? The value of doing the same workouts repeatedly Finding the sweet spot between consistency and boredom Why you should focus on large muscle groups Do you really need equipment? Why bodyweight workouts are great “What do I wear?” and other barriers that are easier to overcome than you think Overcoming perfectionism and managing our own expectations How to build a backup plan The value of small, sustainable consistency over the long term   Resources: Balance365Life on Instagram Cosmic Kids Yoga Workout Wednesday where you don’t have to get off the floor https://www.instagram.com/p/BrAu5OLHcQj/ ) Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers the honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Hey, hey, thanks for listening to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio. Today's episode is all about how to simplify your fitness routine. So often we see women with the best of intentions overthinking exercise, and it ultimately prohibits them from taking consistent action or any action altogether. If that's you, this episode is a must listen. Lauren and I give you five ways to pare down your approach to fitness so you can get in some exercise and get on with your day. By the way, on this episode, Lauren and I talk a lot about our workouts we share on Instagram every Wednesday. If you're not already, be sure to follow us on Balance365Life on Instagram so you can snag a new free workout every Wednesday. Enjoy. Lauren, welcome to the show. How are you? Lauren: I am good. How are you? Annie: Good. What are you up to today? Lauren: Just getting back into, like, work week because last week I think your kids were all out of school and my kids were all out of school and I was so happy to drop them off this morning. I feel like real life again. Annie: Agreed. The snow days. They are a fun surprise once in a while to like, "Hey, let's, like, go do some snow stuff" or- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like just chill in our PJ's all day. But I was ready to get back to the routine. Lauren: Yeah, we were off for a week and a half, so it was like almost another, like, Christmas break. It was like, "Ah!" Annie: Yes. Which ,when you're not planning for it and you're still trying to get all your work things done, it's like, it can be a little bit stressful. Lauren:  Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So what did you do last night, by the way? You posted on Instagram a fancy photo. Lauren: Oh, we went to go see the Phantom of the Opera. Annie: That's fun. Lauren: In Detroit. Yeah, it was fun. It was the first time I'd ever seen it live. Annie: So you skipped the Super Bowl. Lauren: Yeah. Well when we bought the tickets we didn't know what was the Super Bowl. So it wasn't, like, an on purpose thing, but we still went cause we spent a lot of money on the tickets. Annie: Is James a football fan? Was he? Lauren: Not really, I mean he'll watch it but he's not like a big fan. So- Annie: I didn't even realize until the third quarter that the Rams are now in LA, not St. Louis. Lauren: Oh, I don't even know who the Rams are. Annie: Well, they used to be the Saint Louis Rams and then it was like the LA Rams and I'm like, "I thought the Rams were in Saint Louis." Lauren: So you can just move? Annie: I guess. I dunno, I'm not into pro football. Lauren: I'm in Detroit and the Detroit Lions aren't so great anymore. I guess they used to be. But they haven't been in a long time. So, yeah. Annie: Well, I'm in Des Moines and we don't have a pro football team. So college football is much, much more popular here. Lauren: Yeah, we have good college football too. Annie: So you and I are talking about fitness today, simplifying your fitness routine. And this topic kind of came to us because I think the three of us were discussing essentially how women overthink it. Everything- Lauren: Everything. Annie: Like nutrition and fitness. But we're going to start tackling fitness. But women overthink it and it's like they get so caught up in these small rocks and the small details that they almost become paralyzed and they, like, just don't do anything at all. And it's part mindset and part just like basic information on how exercise can look and can work in your life. Because I know, I mean, it's easy for me to say as a personal trainer, I find myself in the gym just naturally with clients or coaching class or whatever. But I realize that not everyone has a love for fitness or a passion for fitness like I do, which is why it's great to have you on the podcast, not to throw you under the bus, but you owned that, like, fitness is not like something that you just love to do. Lauren: It's the first thing that goes for me when I get in a busy season or stressed out and I'm sorry about my voice, I'm just getting over a cold. But yeah, it's the first thing that like gets chopped off for me. Annie: Yeah. Which I think is really common for a lot of people. Like it feels like, kind of almost like a luxury to some people, that if they have the time they'll do it. But oftentimes it's kind of a catch 22. Like you aren't going to have the time unless you make the time and- Lauren: Right. And like, I'll get in the habit and it'll be good. But it takes the longest for me, it seems like to get into that habit and then it's the first one that's the easiest that drops off. So I'm just kind of constantly going back and forth. In and out, which at this point with, you know, two little kids, I'm okay with that. Annie: It's good enough. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So today we just want to give you five ways to simplify your fitness routine and some of its mindset related, some of it's actual practical advice. But I want to preface this by saying that all movement counts, and this can be a really huge mindset shift for a lot of people in our communities. We've seen this. It's, what we hear commonly is, "Walking doesn't count," or "I didn't break a sweat so it's not enough or it wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't sore the next day, so it must not have been effective." And so often people think that they have to be drenched and exhausted and sweaty and on the verge of throwing up for a workout to be effective or for, to exercise to get any benefit out of exercise. And that's just not true. Right? Lauren: Right? Yeah. And I'll also add too, like if you're in a really stressful season of your life, like if you're newly postpartum or just, you're in a really stressful period, something like walking is actually going to be, can be more beneficial than stressing your body out more with an intense workout. Right? Annie: Absolutely. Yeah, they're smart, smart choices. And smart choices don't always feel the most physically taxing, you know, but they're still good choices. Okay, so let's, let's dive into it. The first suggestion to help simplify your fitness routine is simply to level up. And what we mean by that is you don't have to go from zero to 60 overnight. If you're not currently moving at all, even just five minutes is a step in the right direction. But what we see so often as people are like, "Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to start exercising and I'm going to do this thing" and Sunday night they like write up, this used to be me, so I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I'd write out like all these workouts, I'd write out seven days of workouts and it would have this like cardio element, strength element. And then I do a little stretching and I mean honestly I'd probably pair this with all of my food changes too and I'd have this little journal and look really, really great on paper and I might be able to do it for a couple days. But then it's like, "Oh my gosh, like, this is just too much. I can't stick with it." Or I was really motivated at the start of the week on Monday, but now it's Thursday and I don't want to get up early anymore and I'm tired and my body's sore and I can't sustain it. So I would just quit. And that's, we see that kind of pendulum shift. Like they pull this, you know, if you can imagine one of those pendulums, you pull that ball back all the way to one side and that's you doing nothing. And then people ramp it up and they let it go and they do all the things and then they just swing from nothing to all of it, nothing to all of it. And so if you're at a stage where you're not doing anything, doing a little something is a benefit. If you find yourself maybe a little bit more moderate exercise and you want to get some more benefit than you can level up, you can increase the intensity or the duration or try a new activity. But the idea isn't that you have to jump from, like make big leaps. You can just make small steps to level up your fitness routine as you see fit. Lauren: For sure. One of my favorite places for people to start that I like to suggest is if you're someone who's doing nothing right now, I like to suggest starting with something that takes no extra time, right? So, like, Simply parking in the furthest parking spot when you're going shopping or when you're at work and taking the stairs instead of the elevator and just adding those little extra movements throughout your day, they can make a big difference if you do them every time. Annie: Absolutely. This is, what you're describing is, I know you know this, just for our listeners that may not be familiar with this term, it's called NEAT. It's a non-exercise activity thermogenesis. And this is something we actually cover inside our Balance365 program because, and we can put this infographic in our show notes for you, but it's a little bit harder to describe visually over an audio podcast. But essentially if you saw the, how NEAT contributes to energy expenditure or calories burned it, it accounts for more than an actual workout more often than not. So in other words, all the daily movement that you do throughout the day, the chores, the chasing after kids, the picking up kids, hauling groceries, running up and down stairs, mopping the floors, doing the dishes, all of that that you do, actually all that movement that you do actually accounts for more energy expenditure than an hour in the gym more often than not. And, but so often people are like, "Ugh, you want me to walk around the playground while my kids are playing or swinging?" It's like, "That's not, like, that's not worth it." And actually it really is. It all adds up. Okay. Number two, this is one of my favorite ways to simplify your fitness routine and it's to repeat the same workout over and over again and changing up your workout every week or every day can require a crap ton of mental energy, especially if you're the one that's like dictating how you should change it up, which is what I was describing just a little bit ago. You know, every Sunday night I would scour Shape magazine and a Muscle and Fitness Her and Health magazine and like piece together these workouts and I'd be like, "Okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna do this workout and then I'm going to do this yoga workout and then I'm going to do this Youtube workout and then I'm going to write my own strength leg workout or whatever."And I would have something different every single day. And that can require just a lot of effort. And additionally, I know a lot of people have heard the idea of muscle confusion, right? Have you heard that? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: You've heard of it? Yeah. It's been kind of used as a marketing tactic, as a "pro" to, like, workouts that do constantly vary their workouts. Right? And I don't need to name any names, but I think you can think of what talking about and you might have heard comments like you need to keep your muscles guessing or you need to keep your muscles confused. And that doing so increases the gains, right? Like you'll get stronger, you'll get fitter, you'll get leaner faster if you keep your muscles guessing. But it's pretty much garbage. And in fact, in my personal and professional experience, the reason people don't get the gains thereafter is because they don't stick with anything long enough to actually get them.   And science backs this debunking of the muscle confusion philosophy too because our bodies, specifically our muscles, respond to a philosophy or principle called progressive overload, which means that you train a specific muscle group or a movement pattern, progressively adding intensity or duration over a long period of time and so hard days are followed by easier days or longer periods of intensity or followed by longer periods of rest and recovery. But either way, to get better at something, repetition and consistency are key. So you don't have to expend a bunch of mental energy or even physical energy thinking, "I'm going to use kettlebells and then I'm going to do cardio and then I'm going to do strength and then I'm going to do some mobility and then I'm going to do all these things." If you really just want to get stronger, if you want to increase your ability to run, you just need to run, you know, like, run a little bit faster, run a little bit longer, you can vary it that way. Now on the flip side, I know some people are listening to this and they are going to say that repeating the same workout over and over again is boring. Lauren: I would say that. Annie: Yeah, which I totally understand too. And honestly that's one of the reasons I really enjoy Crossfit is because it has a lot of variation to it. They use a lot of different pieces of equipment. They train a lot of different movements. They vary the sets and the reps schemes. And I think it's really important that you find that sweet spot between consistency and boredom. So if you find yourself getting bored and then you're just not doing any workout at all, like, it's okay to switch it up. I'm not saying don't switch it up, I'm just saying it's not necessary to switch it up. Lauren: Right. Like if that's something that's keeping you from doing something because you think you have to find something new to do all the time. Annie: I mean, for me, for example, I trained powerlifting for almost five years. I squat, benched and deadlifted every week for almost five years. And yeah, that was boring. There were some workouts where I was like "Ugh, snooze fest, five sets of eight again or three sets of five again." But guess what? I got really good at squat, benching and deadlifting and, again, this is a, you don't have to, if you want to vary your workout, if that's something you like to do because it's fun for you and you can do it, great. But if you're feeling stuck in the overwhelm of, "Oh my gosh, I have to think of something every day new to do" and that's keeping you from doing any exercise at all, I'm giving you permission to just cut it out. Like, it's not necessary. Lauren: So something really important for me, which is, I think, what you're just talking about is, like, decreasing the mental load of my workout. So for me, it's, like, going to a class where I literally just have to show up and like, I don't have to think, I just go there and show up. Or another thing I've been doing since I haven't been going to classes recently is, just shameless plug for the Wednesday Balance365 workouts that we post on Instagram is I've just been doing those and we have enough now where I can do them, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday or whatever, and just cycle through them. And I, again, don't have to think about it. I just open the app, look at the picture and do it. Annie: Right. And I think if you pay attention to those workouts, you'll see that they almost always have some of the basic elements in there. They'll have a squat, a hinge, a core, a pulling variation. Like there's still some basic elements of a well rounded fitness program. Is it going to help you deadlift 315 pounds? No, but that goes back to our first suggestion to level up. If that's a goal of yours, then, then you're probably, you know, at a different space than a Wednesday workout. That can be a great supplement. But the Wednesday workouts are great for people that are like, "I don't know what to do. I just need someone to tell me what to do." And again, that goes back to why like Crossfit, because I train people a lot and I think up their programs really well. Annie: If I left up to my own devices to write my own program, I would be doing the things that I like all the time and not the stuff that I don't like and probably should be doing and need to get better at. And, I don't want to think, like, I'm just, like, "Just tell me what to do and I'll just do it." And so I can just focus on doing the workout, get in, get out and be done. Lauren: Yup. Annie: Okay. Number three, focus on large muscle groups can help you to simplify your fitness routine. And by large muscle groups, I mean compound movements. And what I mean by compound movements is movements that are using utilizing more than one joint at a time. So a lot of times I'll see kind of these, what I call bodybuilding exercises, where they're focusing on just one muscle group, which is great if you're a bodybuilder, but they'll do, you know, three exercises for a bicep or three exercises to work your quads or four exercises to hit your hamstrings from all these different angles. And again, that's great if you're interested in bodybuilding and isolation movements. But if you're short on time and you're looking for the most bang for your buck, you can either do a lot of exercises working one muscle group, or you can do a fewer exercises that recruit more muscle groups, more joints, like squats, deadlifts, pull ups. So again, that's why when you see going back to those Wednesday workouts, when you see those workouts, they're almost always compound movements, right? They're thrusts, it's a squat with an overhead press. It's a burpee. It's a RDL. It's a deadlift variation. It's a Kettlebell swing- Lauren: Walking lunges. Annie: Walking lunges, which is everyone's favorite, right? Everyone's like, "I hate walking lunges, that and burpees." Lauren: I'll take walking lunges over burpees any day. Annie: Maybe we should do both. Lauren: I'll take anything over burpees any day. And supermans or superwomans. I do not like those. Annie: Is that a shoulder thing? Lauren: I don't know. Annie: Oh, I like superwomans. See the reason why superwoman's, just a side note is, in a lot of, excuse me, a lot of our workouts is because I like to have bodyweight workouts for people that don't have access to equipment for whatever reason, but to do pulling exercises to work your posterior chain, to have like a rowing, pulling exercise with no weight, that's difficult to do. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like a lot of times you need weight and superwomen, which, if you're not familiar with that exercise where you lay down on your belly and you lift your arms and your legs, like you're flying like a superwoman, at the same time to work your backside of your body, it can be really beneficial. But- Lauren: I still do it, I just- Annie: You don't like those? Lauren: It's not my favorite. Annie: Oh, interesting. Lauren: Side note. Annie: So maybe the next Wednesday workout should be all of Lauren's least favorite exercises- Lauren: Yeah, burpees, superwomans, what else? I hate inchworms. Annie: Lunges. Oh, those are fun. And kids like them too. Like does Elliot ever workout with you? Lauren: Sometimes she does. She usually just takes my stuff and then goes and plays with it. Over the, I want to say winter break, the snow thing, school closing. I don't know why I can't think of a name for it. We actually started doing Cosmic Kids Yoga and she really likes that. Annie: Oh, that's fun. Lauren: Yeah. It's cute. Annie: I don't know if my kids would be into that or not. We should link that in the show notes. That's a cute, a fun way to get moving with your kiddos. Okay, we digress. Anyways, moving on. So focus on large muscle groups, compound movements. If you need ideas the Wednesday Workouts are a great idea. We also have a YouTube channel. If you're just looking for workouts. Balance365 on YouTube where we have a fair amount of free workout videos, which we take you through, start to finish. They're mostly under 20 minutes. I narrate all of them to give you cues and tips so you can follow along. You can press pause, you can write down the workouts and take them into your garage or your gym and do on your own. If you don't want to follow along with the video. But they're pretty good workouts. Lauren: Yeah, they are really good. I enjoy them. Annie: I mean, I wrote them, so you better agree. Anyways, okay, tip number four to help simplify your fitness routine is to get rid of the gear. You don't need a bunch of fancy equipment. That can be fun and it can make it really exciting and exhilarating, but body workouts are great. Bodyweight workouts are great, excuse me. They can be super effective, super efficient and minimal equipment works well too. I personally can get a heck of a great workout with just one kettlebell. So don't let this idea of "I need all the resistance bands, I need multiple sets of dumbbells. I need sizes of kettlebells. I need a barbell, I need a ball, I need a mat, I need a timer. You don't need all of that stuff to get in a really, really great workout. And in fact, I just did a bodyweight workout on Monday and I was sore. Now I say sore. That's not an effective way of deciding if your workout was great or not, but you can, my point is you can make body workouts challenging or not if you want. And again, I've been lifting for years and years and years and I still do bodyweight workouts, a fair amount or body weight movements, a fair amount. So, I think, I wonder a lot of times if people kind of poopoo bodyweight workouts or workouts with minimal equipment or workouts that don't have a ton of gear or equipment or cardio because they think, "Oh, that's not very hard or that can't be very hard if I'm not using a ton of weight." And I would challenge you to try it because they can be pretty difficult. And even, I'm just throwing this in there, cause I notice a lot of our Balance365ers do this, that even your pj's can double as workout clothes. And again, this is one of the barriers that I see women kind of get hooked up on is "What do I wear?" Or they're trying to wake up early and do a workout and they're like, "Ugh, I have to get dressed, find my clothes, find my sports bra, the right tennis shoes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just too much." And so we've seen a fair amount of women in our community just work out in their pajamas. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Bra, no bra up to you. Whatever you're comfortable in. But especially if you're, like, working out at home, like, who cares? Right? Like workout in what's ever comfortable with you. Your gym might have some guidelines. I know at the first gym I worked at you had to wear a shirt and that sort of stuff, but get up and work out in your pj's or do a workout in your pj's right before bed. Like don't let that be a barrier to working out. Don't, you don't have to overthink like, "Oh, I don't have on the right clothes." And again, we've even seen women walk on the treadmill or take a walk in their work clothes over their lunch hour or in jeans, you know, that works and it counts and it's good enough. Lauren: Yeah, I wear, leggings most pretty much every day. So I just, I literally do home workouts just in my clothes. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Like, you know, it's 15, 20 minutes and I'm done. I don't have to change my whole outfit and change it back. Annie: Yeah, half the time I don't even throw my hair up in a ponytail anymore. I'm like, I'm that girl. I'm that girl, I cringe to say this, but I used to kind of poke fun at girls that worked out with their hair down. I'm like, "How do they do that? Like how, like how, like aren't they hot? Aren't they sweaty? Isn't in their face?" And now I'm that girl. I'm like, "You know what? I have five minutes. I'm going to do a couple of movements as, until I run out of time and that's going to be good enough." I don't even put my hair in a ponytail, like, just go. Just move. Again. It all counts. It all adds up. Lauren: Yup. Annie: Okay. And our last suggestion is kind of what we've been talking about all along is to help you simplify your fitness routine, and this is definitely a big mindset shift. It's become one of our biggest mantras in our community is "All or something." And the all or something approach to fitness is life changing in my opinion. Because again, I think I've already said this, but women and men, but we work with women, women poopoo workouts because they aren't hard enough. They aren't long enough. They don't use enough weight. It doesn't hit all the elements of cardio strength and mobility. And as a result ,we say that's not good enough. So we just don't do anything at all. "It's not a perfect workout, so I'm not going to do it." And how many times have you let not being able to do the perfect workout keep you from doing anything at all? Right? Lauren: A lot of times. Annie: A lot. Lauren: Yes. Before the last few years. All the time. Annie: Yes. Lauren: If I look at my workouts from, especially the last year since I've had Benny, none of them are crazy intense or super long or perfect or the most effective that they could possibly be, but I'm doing something. Annie: Yes. And that's really all it boils down to. Like, you know, we've said this before in other podcasts, but people get so stuck in living in that all or nothing, they're either on the wagon or off the wagon. They're right, wrong. They're good, bad, black, white, that they forget that there's a whole host of options in between there. There's this big gray continuum in the middle of those two extremes. So as for fitness, it's like you're either not doing any exercise at all on a given day or given week or a month, or you're doing all the things. Like those are not your only two options. You can take a 10 minute walk or do three sets of glute bridges. I mean, I even wrote a workout for Workout Wednesday, we can reshare it, where I said, you don't even have to get up off the floor for this one. Lauren: I did that one. Annie: I know, I've been there where you're like, you're playing on the ground with your kids or you're laying on the floor or whatever and you just cannot be bothered. Lauren: There were superwomans in there. Annie: Glute bridges, clamshells, pushups. We can do all the workouts from the floor, but I imagined people just like slithering off their couch, like sliding to the floor. But again, is it, is it perfect? Is it the most intense workout of your life? Is it going to leave you so exhausted or you can be drenched in sweat? Are you going to be extremely sore? Probably not, but it counts. It counts. Lauren: And you know what? The benefits of exercise come when you do them consistently, right? So if you're like "Go hard or go home", well, you go hard for a week and then you go home for the next four months, right? Like that's, that's not really doing anything for you. If you were to take a walk every day for four months, then that would be, you'd be in a much better place. Annie: Right, or say you, I mean even just by the math or by the minutes, you say, "I'm going to do, you go really hard and you do 10 workouts over the course of four weeks," you know, five days a week for two weeks, that's 10 workouts. Or you say "I'm going to do three workouts a week because that's more sustainable for me, that's more enjoyable. I can actually fit that into my life." In the longterm over the course of six months, like we're looking at a lot more workouts and I'm guessing at the end of six months you're going to be a lot stronger. And in fact, before we started recording this, Jen had some audio problems so she couldn't join us today, but she was saying that she's currently getting, getting really strong and she's the strongest she's been in a really long time and Jen's owned that she's had periods of exercising kind of ebb and flowing, but she's been working at it for eight weeks and she joked about how like that's, you know, "I've been working at this for eight weeks now. Like, I should see all the gains, like how it's kind of a short period of time." I think a lot of people in mainstream fitness think eight weeks is a really long time. And in the grand scheme of things over the course of the year, eight weeks is pretty minimal. So you have to be able to think, like, what can I do for the long term? And over the course of eight weeks, 10 minute walks, that adds up a lot over the course of eight months. Like so don't poo poo exercises just because you can't get it all in. And one of the things that I stole from James Clear, we also have in our Balance365 program is to have kind of a backup plan. And one of my favorite "all or something tools is the if/then statement. Do you remember this? We've talked about this, right? Lauren: Yup, Yup. Annie: That, so what that looks like to me is, "Okay, if I can't get in my workout over lunch, then I will take a 10 minute walk before go home." Or "If I can't get in a full workout this morning, then I will do 30 minutes of it," you know? But like again, you have to, it's just a backup plan. It's to help you think of like, "Okay, I can't do this, but what can I do?" Not, "Well, I can't do this. I can't do anything." It's like, what's the something here? And you know, that's a really good example, Annie. A lot of times, you know, they'll be running late. This happens to me a lot. I drop my kids off at school and if we don't get out the door on the right time, then I'm going to be five minutes late for my class at the gym. And there's so many times where I'm like, "Oh, I'm late. I'm just, I don't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't even go." I'm like, "You know what? I can show up five, 10 minutes late and still get in a great workout. It's shorter, you know, I might have to play catch up a little bit, do my warm up, and then jump in. Or I might have to stay a little bit later, but I can still do something instead of just saying, oh, I missed it so I can't do anything." Lauren: Right. And I think having that if/then statement planned out in advance is also really helpful. So because for me, I know that when things aren't going my way, like when I'm rushed and flustered, that's not the time for me to be like, "Okay, well what can I do?" Like, I'm more likely in that moment to say "Screw it," but if I have this planned out and I'm like, "No, if I can't do this, then I will at least do this." Then I'm like, you know, it makes me feel that much better about doing it in the moment. Annie: Yeah. And let's be honest, like, if you're listening to this, you're probably a busy woman. You either, you know, whether you work or not or how many kids you have, like we're all really, you know, our schedules are packed as much as, as we'd like to admit that they've, like, we have time, like we have time to exercise but if kids get sick, school gets canceled, things come up, if you're like me, forget about projects that you're supposed to have done for Lauren and you're like, "Oh crap, I have to do this now." And like you said at the beginning of the show, Lauren, exercise is one of the first things that gets chopped off the list for a lot of people- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: But maybe instead of chopping it all off, can you just chop off some of it? You know, like, can you do the something? Lauren: Right. Annie: Yes. Okay. Let's do a quick recap. Ways to simplify your fitness. The first one was to level up. You don't have to go from zero to 60 overnight. You can just take small steps and just keep leveling up and up and up and up and up until you're at a fitness level that you're comfortable with. Step two, you can repeat the same workout. We debunked the idea of muscle confusion, that you don't need to keep your muscles guessing. And in fact, the opposite can be true, that consistency and repetition are needed to get #gains. Step three, focus on large muscle groups, especially if you're short on time. You can do a bunch of isolation exercises, which is great if that's the style of exercise you like or if you're into bodybuilding. It's not necessary though, which is why you see us using a lot of movements like squats, deadlifts, pullups, pushups. You can also get rid of the gear if that's keeping you from doing any exercise at all. You don't need a ton of equipment, your PJ's can double as workout clothes. You can use just one piece of equipment or body weight workouts, it all counts and number five, "all or something" your workouts, which means if you can't do it all perfectly, then you can do something, right? Lauren: Sounds good. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Sounds like a plan. Annie: Yes. Like who doesn't want to go exercise, right? Like, let's go! Lauren: Says the person I know- Annie: I actually didn't exercise this morning. I took the day off and I am totally fine with that because rest and recovery is needed. So, I am walking the walk, right? Talking the talk. Walking the walk. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Okay. Well, thanks, Lauren. And hey, if our listeners want to continue the discussion or if they need more information on a ways to simplify their fitness, they can join our free Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook, 40,000 women worldwide. A lot of them are already working on their exercise habit or working movement into their day through their NEAT and we would love to have you in there if you aren't there, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Okay, good chat, Lauren will talk to you later. Lauren: Alright. Bye. Annie: Bye.    

Cheat meals have been a part of popular diet culture for a long time and there are even experts who promote them as being healthy. But what is the truth? Join us as Annie and Lauren unpack the assumptions that are made about cheat meals and explore what balance and moderation mean in the context of healthy, happy living. What you’ll hear in this episode: Do cheat meals boost your metabolism? Could cheat meals be negating your progress? What the experts say about cheat meals Do cheat meals provide a psychological break The Pink Polar Bear effect and cheat meals What “sugar addicted rats” really tell us about restriction Do cheat meals help you stay on track? Cycles of binge restrict - seasonal, time of day, days of the weak How to enjoy treats without cheat days The Goldilocks approach to balance What to do when your pendulum swings back How to find balance in the middle Resources: Is Sugar Addictive? 49: Diet Culture Explained Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: The philosophy of a cheat meal is based on the idea that for one meal or one day a week you can eat whatever you like and it seems to have become the standard in many mainstream diet plans. Fans of cheat meals boast that they boost your metabolism, provide a psychological break and help you stay on track with your goals but do they really? On today's episode of Balance 365 life radio Lauren and I dive into our thoughts and experiences on if cheat meals help or hurt your relationship with food and how you can actually enjoy the foods you love without relying on cheat meals. Enjoy! Lauren, it's me and you again. How are you? Lauren: Hi. I feel like we should have so Mariah Carey in the background. Annie: Oh yeah, we should have, maybe Vanessa can, our podcast editor can put some in the background since Jen's not here. Jen is not a Mariah Carey fan and Lauren and I are diehard Mariah Carey fans. Lauren: Like old school Mariah. Annie: Yeah, in fact on Saturday night there's a bar in my town that is an over 30 bar, which- Lauren: Oh my god. Annie: But the it's great because they play a lot of Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul. Lauren: Do you have to show your ID to prove that you're over 30? Annie: You don't but yeah, I just don't think many people under 30 it's really their thing. Lauren: Want to go. Annie: It's definitely an older crowd but the music is so good so it's fun just to go dancing there because it's like you're in middle school. It's like you're at those middle school, like school parties again. Lauren: And like the skating party. Annie: Yes, like Jay for roll away. Lauren: It reminds me of that meme that says there needs to be a bar, like, for people who like to have 2 drinks then go to bed before 9 o'clock. Annie: Yup, that's me. I had a couple glasses of wine at dinner then we went out dancing with my girlfriends and it was great. Lauren: Like that sounds fun. Annie: It was fun. It was, I mean, that's essentially what happens in my bathroom every morning, you know, a little dance party with Mariah Carey- Lauren: But maybe without the wine with. Annie: Yes or or maybe with a lot of coffee. Just replace the wine with coffee. Anyways,  I'm happy you're here with me today because we're talking about cheat meals and I used to be a big cheat meal fan. Did you ever do a cheat meal? Did you ever do that like? Lauren: Yes, I did lots of cheat meals. They were always like, Saturday it was like my cheat meal day. Annie: Mine was Friday night and then it kind of wiggled its way into Saturday and kind of eventually came around Sunday which we will actually talk about later today but the cheat meal was kind of a standard in a lot of diets. Lauren: Yep. Annie: I don't know if you see this too in your area but it's kind of touted as like the go to philosophy for a lot of, especially in the gym setting, I feel, like a lot of people are doing, you know, that if it fits your macros or whatever and then they have their one designated cheat meal or cheat day. But the idea is that you can eat whatever you want in that timeframe, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: And there's actually even some "experts" that make claims as to why a cheat meal can be a good thing for you and they can say everything from it boosts your metabolism, that it can give you a psychological break from dieting and they can also say that it helps you keep you on track with your plan, which we're just going to blow those right out of the water in the next few minutes. So are you ready? Do you want to just get right into it or do you have any cheat meal thoughts before we jump into it? Lauren: Do you have any cheat meal thoughts? No, no, we can jump right in. Annie: Okay, let's go. So claim number one: cheat meals boost your metabolism. Lauren, you're kind of the nutrition guru, you are, not kind of, you are the nutrition guru. Is that true? Do cheat meals boost your metabolism? Lauren: No, I mean food boosts your metabolism in general and if you need a cheat meal to boost your metabolism, you are not eating enough right or being way too restrictive. Yeah and you know, to add to that whole eating breakfast, jumpstarts your metabolism, like, that's not true either so no, not and also one cheat meal can undo your results for the entire week and I think, I know you've probably experienced this too, right,where you you put in all this hard work throughout the entire week and so your cheat meal you all the things and I think we underestimate how much, how many calories we can eat during a cheat meal or a cheat day and it really, it kind of "undoes" everything you just worked to do, right and if you instead just kind of make smaller, more manageable changes throughout the entire week you don't need a cheat meal and you probably or could get better results anyway. Annie: Yeah, the first time I was, that concept of essentially a cheat meal having the, could be an opportunity to essentially negate all the work you did throughout the week I was in a doctor's office and I was talking to my primary care doctor, this was before I was a personal trainer. I was in the fitness industry, this is was long before this but I was expressing to her that I was trying to make some changes to my diet but that I wasn't losing weight and she asked, like, well, you know, what are you doing and I said well you know Monday through Friday I do really well, I, you know, pack my lunches, eat breakfast, I eat dinner, my snacks are this and that, like all the gold standard, sort of balanced diet stuff, right, it was heavy on the restriction side, of course. Because that's, you know, what I knew then but I said, you know, then on the weekends, then we'll eat out and she was like "Well, tell me about your eating out" and I was like, "Well, we'll go to the, you know, the restaurant down the corner or this or that" and she was like, "I hear that you're trying to make some changes and you have some really good intentions," she's like, "I want you to know that one of those meals can negate any caloric deficit you've tried to acquire during the week" and I was mad. I was mad when I heard that because I was like "No, I work so hard during the week to get this result and then I essentially just blow it all in one Chinese buffet, like, is that what you're telling me?" She was like,  "Well, look, it's not personal but yes, it's possible." Lauren: Yeah, that's really like, exactly what I used to do. I know a friend of mine, do you guys have On The Border? Annie: Yeah  we ate at On The Border when you were here. Lauren: Oh, well we would go to On The Border, there's one like by my house and we would eat the chips and salsa first, right, then I would get these tacos, these amazing tacos with the rice and then we would get this like cake dessert thing which had like the cake with the gooey chocolate center and ice cream and it was like, I probably, yeah, I would definitely overdo it because I was so hungry and so excited to actually eat good food, you know, because when you're restricting yourself so heavily throughout the week you want food that tastes good, like, you want taste. Annie: And I know we've said this a million and one times on this podcast before but I'm going to say it again, restriction sets you up to binge. Lauren: Yes. Annie: And so it's no surprise that if you're restricting, restricting, restricting, you know, like, white knuckling it through the week and then you get to that cheat meal on Friday or Saturday or Sunday or whatever it is or cheat day, it's no wonder you're like "Game on! Let's go, I'm going to get all the things! You know, I'm going to start at breakfast and I'm going to go all the way to dinner, you know or I'm going to have this, like, 3 course meal if you're just doing one meal, like, I'm going to I'm going to expand that meal into an appetizer and then a main course and then a dessert and then a side dish and some heavy caloric drinks or some alcohol or whatever." That's normal, that's exactly what we would expect from someone that is white knuckling it through the week, like. Lauren: Right and when you only have one day or one meal to get in all your favorite foods, like, I'm going to fit as much as I possibly can fit in my stomach right now, like, and I still go out to eat, like, I still eat chips and salsa and tacos and sometimes order dessert but I just eat less, like, I don't eat as many chips and salsa because I'm not starving, like, I'll eat, you know, I'll take half of my meal home because I don't need it all and if we do order a dessert, like, the whole family shares that, I have a few bites and like that's it, so not saying you can't go out to eat but it's just a different kind of experience. Annie: Absolutely. I think that's what we call moderation here at Balance365. Lauren: Oh, OK. Is that the term? Annie: Is that a new concept to you, Lauren? Jokes, jokes. OK, claim number 2: cheat meals provide a psychological break. Is that true? Lauren: No, I don't, not in the long run. So it can feel like a break when you're in it, right, but then you have to go back to restricting. I remember I always used to like, plan, like you said, I would play my whole day. Annie: Yes, right. Lauren: Plan what I'm going to eat for each meal, the whole cheat day but then you have to go back to it and we had Marci Evans on the podcast a few weeks ago and we talked all about sugar addiction, right or whether sugar addiction is a real thing, so if you haven't listened to that, definitely go listen that was a really good and if you remember, she talked about the sugar addicted rats that "prove" that sugar addiction is a real thing, right, when you read the click baity articles and whatever. But what we, what the study actually showed was the rats that had that addiction-like behavior were the ones that were, they had to fast before hand, right, they restricted their food before hand and then they gave them that access to the sugar and they gave them sometimes a lot of sugar, sometimes they would take it away and give it back and the rats that did not have that restrictive behavior before hand they just ate it like regular food, right, they didn't exhibit that same addicted like behavior. Annie: Yeah  so what she was suggesting and what other research has backed is that it's not necessarily the food, it's the way in which the food is presented or the context around the food. Lauren: Right. Annie: So yeah, when you're saying, no, I can't have this until Friday, like, yeah, come Friday you are salivating for it? Lauren:  Like, yeah and I think we talk about this in probably almost every single podcast but like the Pink Polar Bear effect, when you tell yourself you can't have something, you want it more and actually something that was really interesting, I think it was another Tracy Mann study who we're going to have on the podcast soon too shows that when you restrict your food you are more likely to notice food around you and that's by design, right. So when we were at real risk for starving we were more likely to notice when food was around us and that was helpful to us back then, but now with food everywhere it's not so helpful but when you restrict your food or tell yourself you can't have that food, you notice food more around you I mean, which is super interesting. Annie: I think if you are trying to get pregnant, have been pregnant, the thing that comes to mind is like, when we started trying to conceive with my children, you know, it was like all I saw was pregnant- Lauren: Everyone- Annie: Everyone was pregnant right, like, the farmer's market was just full of pregnant women. Lauren: Or you ever get a new car and then you've never seen that car before and now you see it everywhere and like everyone has your car. Annie: Yes, the power of suggestion, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie:  OK claim number 3, this is kind of what I was hinting at earlier is that meals make it easier to stay on track, which- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Tell me about that, Lauren. Lauren: Well, so your cheat meal on Friday night leads you to your cheat day on Saturday which leads you to your cheat day on Sunday. Normally I could cut it back off for Monday morning but trying to just do one cheat meal over the weekend and then stop is really difficult and I think most of our listeners who have been through this can completely understand where we're coming with this. Annie: And I think it's really common, you know, if you first start implementing the philosophy of cheat meals to be like "OK, cheat meal one and done" and then, you know, a few months later it's like a cheat meal Friday night goes into breakfast Saturday and then after a year of cheat mealing it you're like "Oh, look, my whole weekend is now a cheat meal, which is essentially my experience." Lauren: Right and then it's like what are you working so hard Monday through Thursday for, right? You're just torturing yourself for no reason. Annie: Right and the other thing that's kind of actually thinking about it in those terms, we've talked a lot about Weight Watchers, I've been a member multiple, multiple times but that's essentially what I was doing around weigh ins was I would kind of white knuckle it, restrict, restrict, restrict pre-weigh in and I would go weigh in so I could weigh in light and reach my goal for the week and then after the weigh in it was game on, like, finally, just give me the foods that I was saying I couldn't have before I weighed in and which leads us right into why or how rather cheat days can create the perfect storm for yo yo dieting, weight loss, weight gain, weight loss, weight gain, weight loss, weight gain is essentially what we're saying, Lauren and I are saying is that you spend, you know, 3, 4, 5 days dieting, dieting, dieting, dieting, restricting, restricting, restricting and then the other 2, 3, 4 days game on, all in,  I'm just going to eat whatever I want, you get a case of the screw its and that's like, "Let's go, right?" Lauren: Yeah for sure and then, we're kind of talking about this as week and weekend but there's also like the seasonal thing, right, like we just got over, we just got done the holidays, right that's a big thing too, like, you diet, diet, diet up to the holidays and then you go crazy until, you know, sometimes the beginning of January, sometimes it's until the spring, right and then you just repeat that again. So this can be like shorter, like weekly or it can be even shorter than that, like, sometimes you'll see people trying to eat as little as possible throughout the day and then they go crazy at night, right? They can't stop eating at night, like, after their kids go to bed or when they get home for work or whatever, so it could be a short of a time frame as that, it could be a week, it could be months. But yeah, it's kind of all the same, even though it's different. Annie:Yeah and I just want to say, I want to reiterate that the restrictive diet that's paired with the cheat days or cheat meals is what makes it necessary, "feel necessary" to eat all those foods because your hunger, you're hungry, you're thinking about all the foods you said you couldn't eat and your quantities have likely been repressed before that and so you want to eat a high volume of foods and then you combine that with what we're talking about with the lab rats earlier, like, you know, you get this addiction-like response because you've been restricting these foods, it's not because the foods themselves are addictive. it's the manner in which you present the foods to yourself. Lauren: Right, it's like we always talk about it's the diets, like, it feeds itself, right, like you go on a diet and going on the diet causes you to overeat which causes you, you know, shame and guilt and all these feelings which make you want to diet again, it just goes in a circle it over and over and over. Annie: Yes, so how do you enjoy treats without cheat days? Lauren: Well, you want to start not at the cheat day part ,you want to start at the diet part. Annie: Yes, so many people are- Lauren: So make your diet not so restrictive and you, like, you just said you don't have that strong desire and strong need to overeat all the things. Annie: Right. It's not, the answer isn't eat everything in sight all the time and it's not, also on the flip side, to eat only healthy or "good" foods and never eat treats again, the answer is daily consistent moderation. Lauren: Well, there is that word again, moderation. Annie: It just keeps coming up. It's so weird. And that's finding a balance between the food you love and a way of eating that helps you live your life and show up in your life as your best self. So instead of cutting out sweets and treats or pizza or tacos or whatever it is or waiting until the weekend, you plan to enjoy a reasonable amount of treats or pizza or tacos throughout the week and you know and you might have some variations of that, so obviously you are not going to probably choose to eat a cheat meal for the whole, or what you would traditionally eat at a cheap meal, you know, I'm thinking of someone who is currently listening and they're like imposing the cheat meal philosophy. You might have a little bit of a pendulum swing where while you're, as Lauren said, trying to stop this process in the restriction, you might feel that your cheat meal carries on for a week or a couple weeks and you eat all the foods but eventually, in our experience, as Lauren said and we've shared this on the podcast before, you're probably going to find that if you continue to cheat meal type foods, whatever that looks like to you, over the long haul you're probably not going to feel very good. Like you just aren't and again, we just shared this on our last podcast that we recorded that the diet industry wants you to believe that if you are left to your own devices you will sit on the couch, eat all the foods all the time and do nothing, right, that's what they want us to believe but we would offer that if left to your own devices, our bodies naturally crave a variety of foods, balance, moderation, movement, variety and so one way to implement moderation is to allow yourselves to eat those cheat meal foods throughout the week, not just on the weekends or not just when you have those designated, like, "I'm allowed to eat this" moment. Lauren: Right and it's not, you don't need to confine yourself to just "diet foods" right, like, eat foods that you enjoy and eat enough of them to sustain you and you won't feel that crazy desire to eat all the things that taste good and are super hyper palatable and it's just, it's exactly that going from one side of the pendulum to the other to in the middle. Annie: Yeah, because part of finding balance whether it's with food or exercise or anything, anything in life when you're trying to find balance, part of finding balance is experimenting what feels like too much and what feels like too little. I mean, even, you know, like, thinking about, like, you're learning to drive a car, which is another analogy we've used before. You know, when I watch my kids drive a car when they turn, you know, a car, they're not driving my car, just to be clear, you know, whether to drive like a go cart or a video game, when they turn, they crank the wheel hard and when they stop they push the brake hard and when they press the gas pedal, they push the gas hard and they have to just learn that, like, that was too much, this is too little. I got to find that balance in between what's just enough for me. It's like Goldilocks, right? Lauren: Yeah and we see this all the time in our Balance365 community and the Healthy Habits Happy Moms community. Someone will be like, well I tried this for a day and I ate all the things that didn't work and now I don't feel good, right, like, you are not, you have to realize you are not going to get this right on the 1st try, like, it takes trial and error. But going through that process is worth it in the end, like it's not going to take forever, it will take some time to figure out but then you have it and you know and you know what's too much and you know what works for you. Annie: Yeah, so if you're someone that's listening, I'm thinking of myself when I was 20, you know, 2 or 23 and I was doing cheat meals on a Friday night. I guarantee if I let go of that restriction during the week, cheat meals on the weekend sort of thing I would have had a period where my pendulum swung in the opposite direction and I would have been pizza, tacos, chips like a steady diet of just those three foods, like no vegetables, no fruit, very little, you know, protein. And I would have I would have eventually have come out of it and in fact, I did, that's essentially what I did is, like, let go of that process was I had to move through some of this, like, "OK, I'm going to experiment what feels like too much food and then I'm going to let my pendulum kind of settle somewhere in the middle which is now I'm able to enjoy pizza and tacos and chips, you know, as little or as much as I see fit and I'm completely neutral about it." Lauren: Yeah and we're not saying, you know, you're never going to eat another vegetable again, like, once I kind of find, once you, say, sort of start settling back in the middle, that's when it's really helpful to kind of adopt these other healthy habits that we teach in Balance365 like adding your vegetables and making sure you're going enough protein but doing it from the mindset, from a balanced mindset instead of a diet mindset, it makes all the difference. Annie: Yeah and I think too, you know, just to wrap up, remembering that this is a process, right, like we were just saying that it's going to be a practice, it's going to be an evolution. And you might have some missteps but we encourage our Balance365 members to look at this as like an experiment and it's just kind of information that you're gathering about yourself so you can, you know, that saying when you know better, you can do better and you can make different choices based off of your needs the more information you have about yourself. But, all in all, we would we would largely encourage moderation over cheat meals, for all the reasons we just listed previously but we think that really promotes a healthy relationship with food and that way you get to eat your pizza and your Cheetos, next to your kale. Lauren: That was a different podcast. Annie: I know but it still applies, it still applies, you can have it all and kale. Lauren: Yes. Annie: OK, good, we crushed that, Lauren. Lauren: Yeah we did. Annie: Yeah and if you need, if we say so ourselves, if you need help, if you're currently like cheat mealing it up and you're like, "OK, yeah, I hear what they're saying, this isn't working for me anymore, I don't want to continue this" and you want support and you're not already in our Facebook group please join us. It is a free private Facebook group. We are Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook we have 40,000 plus, and growing daily, women in our group that would encourage you, love to encourage you and cheer and clap for you and support you as you find out what balance and moderation looks like in your diet. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Alright, thanks, Lauren. Lauren: Alright. Bye. Annie: Bye  

  Secrets from the Eating Lab Author Dr. Traci Mann, professor of Psychology at the University of Minnesota and an expert on the psychology of eating, dieting and self-control joins Jen, Annie and Lauren in discussing the science behind the hot topics of self-control, temptation, diets and the alternative to dieting.   What you’ll hear in this episode: How much of our weight can we influence? How much of our weight is influenced by genetics? The concept of the Leanest Livable Weight Goal weights and reasonable ranges Weight regain and dieting – how common is it? Why you regain weight after dieting What happens to your body when you go on a diet What you start to notice when you go on a diet Is weight regain guaranteed? Characteristic of people who keep weight off The role of healthy movement  you enjoy in maintaining weight loss Self-control: who struggles with it and can you increase it? The obesogenic environment: what it is Temptation free checkouts and apple bins, reducing the need for willpower at the grocery store The role of small obstacles and inconveniences Making healthy choices convenient to increase compliance Keeping the focus on health instead of weight   Resources: Secrets from the Eating Lab Dr. Mann’s Facebook Page Dr. Mann on Twitter Episode 4: What A 70-year-old Starvation Experiment Taught Us About Dieting Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life radio. Before we get into today’s podcast episode with an amazing guest, I want to share with you a super sweet message that we received from one of our community members on Facebook today. Christy says “I have been a part of Healthy Habits Happy Moms for almost 2 years now and a Balance365er since May of 2018. I am all in to the way this group thinks and believes. I’m at the point now that when I workout I channel Annie Brees, when I mention establishing habits to coworkers I channel Lauren Koski and when I’m trying to give some perspective to friends about diet culture and treating myself well I channel Jennifer Campbell. I can’t thank the three of you enough for how you have changed my outlook and daily life. I’m chipping away at the program but at this point my greatest takeaway is the way I live out each day because of this new perspective. I can go on and on but I just have to give a big thanks to Jennifer, Annie and Lauren. Thank you so much, Christy and I want to share with all of our community members that any email, any message, any direct message on Instagram we read them all and we are so appreciative of any reviews that you share on the podcast. We love them all. We cannot thank you enough.   Alright, let’s jump into this podcast because I’m super excited about it. I’m not sure if we have referenced any other book on this podcast as much as we have her book, Secrets from the Eating Lab by Dr Traci Mann. Dr. Mann is a professor of Psychology at the University of Minnesota and an expert on the psychology of eating, dieting and self-control. In addition to all her impressive professional experience, she’s also a mom who loves those ice cream, super relatable, hey? If you’re curious about how much control we really have over our weight, how you can avoid temptation and why diets don’t work and what to do instead then you have to listen to this interview with Dr Mann. Enjoy! Jen and Lauren, we have a special, special guest are you two pumped for the show or what? Lauren: So pumped. Jen: Yes, I’ve been waiting. We arranged this well before Christmas I think so I’ve just been like vibrating waiting for it. Annie: Yes and what our listeners didn’t catch before we started recording was Jen gushing for about 10 minutes about how she loves Dr Traci Mann. Welcome to the show, thank you for joining us. Dr. Mann:  Well, thanks for having me, you guys are so nice. Annie: We, the 3 of us have read your book, The Secrets from the Eating Lab and we reference studies, quotes, information from this book so often in our community and our podcast if they haven’t read it, if listeners haven’t read it we would highly recommend it and it’s heavy on the science because you’re a researcher but I wasn’t overwhelmed by the science when I was reading it. I felt it was very like, I could understand the concepts that you were sharing. So, thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Mann: I would also say I’m sure I shouldn’t say this but it’s free Kindle right now. Jen: OK. Annie: Oh my! How long is it going to be free for? Dr. Mann: You know, I have a vague memory of agreeing to this with my agent like a year ago thinking it was like a month long thing and I think it’s possibly forever, I don’t know. Jen: OK we will Dr. Mann:-never sell another book. So, whatever, it’s fine. Annie: Well I will- Dr. Mann: Better people read it than buy it. Annie: say if you look at the 3 of our copies they are highlighted, like top to bottom, they have been like, right, like, they’ve been used, they’ve been well loved. Lauren: I think the name Traci Mann has been on probably 90 percent of our podcast. Jen: Yeah and this, so I have this page highlighted, what I was gushing about before we hit record was how Traci, Dr. Traci, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to- Dr. Mann: Just call me Traci. Annie: We’re besties now. Jen: So you are very much a messy middle writer in that you really objectively look at the research, you haven’t gone headfirst into any kind of movement or philosophy and just looked at research to support your philosophy, you’ve looked at the research which has allowed you to come up with a very objective, balanced message. Dr. Mann: That was the goal for sure. Jen: And so I just I highlighted this a long time ago because it was perfect. It says, it’s on page 20 and so what we hear a lot and what our audience is very aware of is that we hear two things, we hear that you cannot control your weight, you should not even try to lose weight, it’s pointless, your weight is predetermined, what you have, what you’ve got, that’s what you’re going to have forever and then on the other side of the spectrum, we have this whole industry of transformations that it is totally realistic and sustainable to lose half your body weight forever etc, etc. When what we actually know and what the research provides is is that you, it’s actually like in the middle but what you had written and I feel like I was waiting for this message. When I found your book I felt like “I have arrived. I am home. Like, this is what I have been looking for, somebody who is just sensible.” And you say, “I’m not saying you can’t influence your weight at all, just that the amount of influence you have is limited and you’ll generally end up within your genetically determined set weight range” and I thought that was so perfect in that you’re not willing to say you cannot control your weight, you’re trying to say “Hey, we can influence our weight, it’s just not to the level that you have been led to believe by the fad diet industry.” Dr. Mann: Exactly. That’s right so it’s partly genetic, but not 100 percent genetic.   Jen: Right and isn’t there a percentage? Dr. Mann: I think it was 70%- Jen: Yes I think it was 70% but you have a, there’s about a range of 30 percent in there that you can influence your weight. Dr. Mann: Yeah and I mean, it’s not just that and it’s really interesting that people are staking out these extreme positions, you know, it’s like, “Come on, people, nothing is black and white like that.” Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But with the weight thing, it’s not just, it’s not the case that you can’t maneuver your weight around to some extent, obviously you can’t, like you just said, you can’t lose half your body weight but you can move it around to some extent but the problem is that it’s really hard, it’s hard to move it around a lot. It’s not hard to move it around a little. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: And that’s mostly what we talk about in the book is ways to move it around a little without it taking over your life. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But to move it around a lot, it’s not that it can’t be done, it’s just that it’s really, really hard. Jen: And it’s very, it can be hard on us physically and psychologically to be trying to move our weight around to those different extreme ends. Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I like to talk about this Leanest Liveable Weight idea. By Leanest Livable Weight I mean it’s the lowest weight that you can comfortably have without having to work so hard at it. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Because the leanest weight you can live at comfortably, now that has been misinterpreted by the lovely people like GOOP.com – the lowest weight you can actually survive at without dying. Jen: Right and that’s not what any of us here are trying to talk about. That’s what a lot of women are trying to be and they might they may not even realize it, that that’s what they’re actually trying to achieve but that’s definitely not healthy, physically or psychologically. Annie: And I just want to add to that we’ve worked with thousands of women across the span of the globe and one of the common themes that keeps coming up for women is goal weights or they have this like ideal body weight and oftentimes if you asked them, like, “Well, where did that weight come from?” it’s, like, so, like, not evidence based, it’s like, “Oh I weighed that when I graduated high school or that’s what I weighed on I wedding day or that’s my pre-pregnancy weight” and it might not be realistic. Dr. Mann: Or it sounds good. Annie: Yeah, or that’s what I read on some chart in, you know, I even remember coming across a scale in the mall bathroom, why there was a scale in the mall bathroom I don’t know but it had a chart of, like, body weights and like this is if you’re large frame, small frame. And it’s really not realistic, usually not realistic for those goal weights. So we love the idea that you have a range because as a woman I know that my weight can fluctuate you know 10-15 pounds versus in a month, in a year, how would you recommend going about determining a reasonable range of weight for someone? Dr. Mann: Yeah, that’s a really good question. That’s the hardest question to answer and the question I’m least likely to be able to satisfy you with an answer to because there isn’t, like, a scientific formula to figure out your sort of set range, so instead you have to just kind of make a guess based on your sort of knowledge of what your weight has done over your life and a lot of people notice that there’s a certain weight area that they keep coming back to. So they lose some weight but then they come back to this weight or they gain some weight but then they plop down in this weight without even trying very hard and so if it’s, you know, the weight that your body seems to keep wanting to come back to that’s probably right there, right there in the set range, right where your body is trying to keep you because you’re good at it. Annie: Yeah, in your book and I know there’s going to be people they’re going to say, they’re going to scoff at this but you didn’t just look at people that have lost weight and then regained it, you also looked at people that were trying, studies that have tried to get people to gain weight and it was hard to even maintain a weight gain as well, which further supports the idea that, like, this is where your body can effortlessly live or with minimal effort. Dr. Mann: Right, it’s true and then the weight gains that are particularly interesting because so many people think, you know, I am so careful with what I eat, if I wasn’t this careful I would for sure gain a whole ton of weight. Lauren: Yes, we hear that all the time. Dr. Mann: Yeah, you do, you know, I think people really worry about that and I think partly why they worry about it is because if they do eat a lot more than normal for a while, they do gain weight, but they only gain a certain amount of weight, you know what I mean? So maybe you’ll gain your 5 pounds or 10 pounds but you’re not going to gain 50 pounds, you know, or if you do you’ll come back down pretty easily. Jen: Right,  we see a pendulum swing happen quite often with women who are coming off dieting, if they have spent a decade of their life dieting. We see this pendulum swing where they go from, you know, one weight and the pendulum swings up to a higher weight that they are comfortable with or that is maybe within their set point range but then it settles down somewhere in the middle and we talk about that and you reference this in your book, The Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Dr. Mann: Right. Jen: So if you are coming from years and years and years of restriction, you look at, we have a whole podcast on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. So if you are coming from a period of very severe restriction, the pendulum swing is almost an expectation, it’s almost, like, we would say it’s a normal and natural response to dieting. Dr. Mann: Oh exactly, it exactly is. I mean, we all need to reframe how we think about dieting. When people think about dieting, they think of that initial weight loss and that’s their image of dieting and then they assume once they have that initial weight loss, they just stay down there. Jen:  Right. Dr. Mann: But actually, if you followed all the research looking longer at dieters, you see it’s completely predictable that the weight comes back on. Jen:  Right. Dr. Mann: There’s a tiny, tiny minority of people who keep it off. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But for the majority of people, it just comes back on, you know, over the next like 2, 3, 4, 5 years. So we need to realize that that is a normal part of dieting and not a failure by any particular individual dieter. Jen: Right, right. Dr. Mann: And the thing is they always blame themselves for that. Jen: For that pendulum swing. Dr. Mann: That’s just what happens. Your body needs that to happen, your body is making that happen. Jen: Yeah, it’s like, I think you also, I think we’ve used this analogy and I think it came from your book, it’s like gasping for air after holding your breath. Dr. Mann: Right, I didn’t invent that analogy but I did include it, yes. Jen: Yes. Dr. Mann: Yes, it’s true. I feel like anything I say you’ve already talked about but I mean the things that happen when you restrict for a while. Your body, of course, doesn’t know you want to look thinner, your body thinks you’re in the process of starving to death and so it makes these alterations to save you which is so kind of it and yet everyone gets so mad about that because all those changes that save you from starving to death, make, basically make it very, very, very easy to regain the weight. Jen: Right and it probably, well, you can correct me if I’m wrong, it doesn’t really matter what size you are, if you are 120 pounds or if you’re 220 pounds when you do that restriction, your body still, you know, it doesn’t matter how much body fat you have, your body still thinks you are starving. Dr. Mann: Right, if your body detects that much less is coming in than it than expected then it just, all these changes just click on, you know, your metabolism changes, uh oh, now you have to eat less to keep losing weight. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Hormone levels change, uh oh, you’re going to feel hungry. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: When you eat an amount of food that didn’t used to make you feel hungry, you know and then there’s all these attention changes too, right? So you notice food more if it’s around, you can’t get your mind off it once you start thinking about it, so all those things make regaining the weight way too easy and keeping it off way too hard. It doesn’t make it impossible, though and so this is a key, another key thing that I think people sometimes don’t realize. Any person who knows someone who has lost weight and kept it off, you know, comes and says to me “You can’t say that your body does this stuff, you can’t say your body makes these changes that cause you to regain the weight because I know people who’ve kept it off.” Well I’m not saying that these changes make it impossible to keep off the weight, I’m saying these changes make it really, really hard to keep off the weight. So hard that most people can’t do it. Jen: Right. We were talking before we hit record, again, another thing I had brought up is that because we are, you know, we try to navigate that messy middle and help women figure out what’s right for them, I had said, you know, hearing these two, I remember when I was first getting into this and starting to read about it like 4 to 5 years ago, I would start hearing that extreme messaging “You can’t keep off weight, you just can’t” and actually my husband has lost about 60 pounds, he was, I think, he was about 300 pounds when he graduated high school and now he sits at between kind of 220 and 245, I think. I mean, he’s going to be horrified that I’m talking about this but anyways but that just, that comes very naturally to him to kind of sit around there and so I would, you know, I was the same as those people. I kept hearing that it’s impossible to lose weight and I thought, he has now kept that off for 20 years and he’s not working, like, I don’t see him get up every day and like work at it, he’s not like, he’s not micromanaging his food, he’s not, he has some great habits, he, you know, he eats balanced meals, he tries to get to the gym 3 to 4 times a week but he’s lived a high stress life like the rest of us, he’s had kids, gone to grad school, all of that and so that just didn’t sit well with me and I thought, instead of looking at everybody who is failing, what are these successful people doing? Like why are they able to do it? Which kind of comes why, again, why your book is so refreshing, because you sort of, you’ve got that sort of nailed. Dr. Mann: Well, you know, I mean, I don’t even know and it’s interesting how you describe your husband as not having to work at keeping it off. Because what the research shows of the people who lose weight and keep it off is that those people are, you know, fairly obsessed with every little calorie that goes into their body and with every little bit of exercise they do to burn calories. So that’s what I expect to hear when I hear that people kept it off for a long time but one thing that I’ve been wondering about lately and no one has done the study that I know of and I don’t actually even know how to do this study but I’ve been wondering like, the people who lose a lot of weight and keep it off are those people who had happened to recently gain a bunch of weight but weren’t normally really heavy? You know what I mean, like I’m wondering if those who end up taking, you know, people who have had this unusual weight gain as opposed to people who are just always some high weight and took it off. Lauren: Yeah we see. Jen: I have theories. Go ahead, Lauren. Lauren: Yeah, we kind of see this and this is, I think, kind of in my story too, we see people who start dieting at a young age, right and then they just keep putting on weight as they do the rebound and you know, their weight wasn’t maybe supposed to be quite that high but because of the dieting it keeps going up. Dr. Mann: It got inflated from their- Lauren: Yeah and so for me, when I, after I stopped dieting and I did gain a lot of weight, when I finally went came to this place of balance my weight did go down and I think it’s kind of just like that it came back to its normal range. Jen: My husband also, I haven’t seen any research on this, he has put on a significant amount of muscle over the years so he, you know, at 18 years old, he didn’t go to the gym. He just, you know, his body composition is completely different, he, you can just tell by looking at pictures of him that he had a substantial amount of body fat and then after he left high school he got into boxing and ended up boxing professionally or sorry I should say semi professional, he’s just going to die, when he listens to this, I’ll just give him a little plug, he won the gold medal at the Canadian games in 2007 for boxing. Dr. Mann: Wow. Jen:  I know, amazing, but he just gets so embarrassed when I talk about this. Dr. Mann: You know, just to revise what I was saying, he’s an elite athlete. Jen: Well, he wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say now, I think he’s got more like Dad bod now but he did, he just, he got into, so what we tell our girls in Balance365 is to find movement they like, like if you and you talk about this in your book that if you don’t like what you’re doing you’re never going to stick to it and so when I say my husband doesn’t work at it, it’s not that he doesn’t prioritize exercise and doesn’t prioritize a balanced way to eat, he really enjoys that so it’s not that, so I think what what happens is there are people out there that are just never, they’re never going to enjoy my husband’s lifestyle. I’m not athletic and I am not competitive. I would never have enjoyed training for a boxing match like that or several boxing matches so, but through that- Dr. Mann: I don’t think I would like that either. Jen: Right and so you have to kind of go, you know, and Annie, for example, Annie crossfits like 4-5 times a week which helps her to sustain that 40 pound fat loss that she has done but and so it’s like Annie, personally, doesn’t feel like she wakes up in the morning and micromanages her weight loss, however if I had to get up everyday and go to Crossfit 4-5 times a week, that would feel like I was micromanaging my loss, do you know what I’m saying? Dr. Mann: Yeah, it’s true, so everyone needs to just find a sort of a set of lifestyle habits that aren’t soul crushing for them. Jen: Right, for them and that’s the sort of key that it’s like, what do you like to do and it may not be what somebody else does and so you won’t get the results that person has gotten but hey, that’s OK, like, let’s just be sensible here kind of thing. Dr. Mann: True, I mean, like in the last year or so I’ve had this just chronic hamstring injury, just won’t get better no matter how long it just doesn’t get better and you know, finally my physical therapist was like, you know, it doesn’t hurt when you do spin class, doesn’t hurt when you do yoga, it hurts when you run. It’s like exactly that part of the answer and she’s like “You have to not run” and somehow, her saying that I don’t have to go all winter onto the treadmill, it’s like so freeing to allow myself to do the kinds of exercise that I, I don’t want to say enjoy but that I don’t hate. Annie: Right. Dr. Mann: Even though to me they don’t seem as potent You know, I mean like, my brain is running this but I feel like, you know, all signs are that I’m just as healthy as if I were running as long as I’m doing these other activities and it’s not miserable. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: So thank you, Christina, for freeing me from feeling like I have to use the freaking treadmill. Lauren: Can I, can I go back to, I want to go back to something that Jen said because this. is something that I’ve been wondering about when we hear this about the set weight range is that total weight or is that like fat percentage? Because we do see people who do build muscle, right and they’re the same weight but their body composition is very different, like, how do you know how that plays into this? Dr. Mann: I don’t. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone talking about set weight ranges in any way other than referring to weight. I’ve not heard anyone describe it in terms of muscle mass. Lauren: OK. It’s always something I’ve wondered. Dr. Mann: I don’t think people have, yeah, at least I’ve not encountered it. Jen: Yeah, I’m curious. If you end up putting on this muscle mass and it leads to your total body weight being, you know, a little bit- Lauren: Are the same as what your mass was with less muscle then is that sort of like a “trick” for your body in that it’s like, oh, we’re, you know, we’re the same weight and so you see people that change their body but your body is like “But I still weigh this much and I still need this amount of calories to sustain me.” That might be a future research project for you. Annie: That would reflect my experience, for sure because I have, like, probably a 6 to 7 I would say pound weight range that I have not budged from for maybe a couple years but my body composition has changed within that. A couple of percent, I mean, to me it’s been noticeable but I cannot, like, I have to work really, really hard to get out of that range either above or below it. Dr. Mann: That’s really interesting. So yeah, that might be a good trick, you know, don’t worry about the number, just try to replace some more of that fat with more muscle. Jen: Yeah and I think my husband probably has benefited hugely from his, his body composition is completely different than when he was 18 and I think he’s still a very heavy man, right he’s still like 240 pounds, he’s a heavy man but he’s not, he just has way less fat mass and more muscle mass on him, right? Dr. Mann: That’s great. I never thought about that, very interesting. Jen: Alright. Annie: We will come be your test subjects. Jen: Yes. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Be happy to take a trip to the eating lab up north or kind of down south. Jen: Down south for me. Annie: Yeah, for Jen. Dr. Mann: You’re in Canada. Jen: Yeah, I’m in British Columbia. Yeah. Annie: Yeah, I feel like that’s kind of a good segue talking about, you know, how much your habits or lack thereof kind of consume you because one of the most common comments we get from members or of our community is that they feel like they just need more willpower, more motivation, more self-discipline and if they have those things then they could, like, just stick to their diet, they could stick to their plan, they could reach their goals, right and I know that as a researcher of self-discipline you’ve noted that you’ve heard that echoed as well, that when you share with people that you’re researching that they’re like “Oh yeah, I want more of that” or “How do I get more of that?” In your experience, is more willpower needed? Is that what people are missing? Dr. Mann: No, no, people are missing, so every dieter thinks they are uniquely bad at resisting tempting food, you know, I mean, like, something you sort of alluded to it but constantly people come up to me after talks and or like before talks, “Oh God, self-control, I need more of that, you know, that’s a good thing that I happen to need, me alone, you know,” but everyone is bad at self-control. Everyone struggles with their willpower, thin people, fat people and everyone in between. It’s not the thing that tells us who is going to end up thin and who’s not, you know what I mean, everyone struggles with it, in fact, there’s these, this group of psychologists called positive psychologists that study, like, human strengths, so things like kindness or creativity, or thoughtfulness and what they find is that like the kinds of things that all range really highly kindness, thoughtfulness, people generally believe that they are kind and generally believe they’re thoughtful, the one that comes in dead last every time is self-control. People do not think they have self-control and they’ve repeated that kind of survey in like 53 countries. Jen: Wow. Dr. Mann: It was always at or very, very near the bottom. Nobody thinks they have good self-control, it’s not, it’s not unique to dieters, it’s everyone and it wouldn’t matter if everybody had great self-control because of the environment we all live in and there’s probably no amount that would be enough to survive the onslaught of temptation every minute of the day. Jen: Is this what you would say is the obesogenic environment? Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly and that is what we’re living in and I mean, I shouldn’t have to try to resist buying a candy bar when I’m in Office Depot, buying paper for my printer. Jen: Right and you don’t. Dr. Mann: That should not be a temptation challenge, you know. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: You know, it’s everywhere, all the time. Jen: Right, there’s candy, I don’t know if you guys have staples down there but we have Staples and it’s like an Office Depot and there is candy at the checkout, it’s everywhere. Dr. Mann: A huge selection, I mean and really kind of awesome candy selection. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: At office supply stores for some reason. Jen: So there’s and there’s, I don’t know if this is same down there, but in Canada there is a push to have, like, basically temptation free aisles, so candy free aisles specifically for parents bringing their children to shop because I just argue with my kids nonstop about not buying candy, so then it becomes this thing that children begin to focus on and then they develop these scarcity issues or because there’s just candy and they see it and you’re saying no but and so the other thing that they’ve started offering in grocery stores here is they have apple bins for children so when you are shopping with your kids you take your kids to the apple bin and they can munch on an apple while you’re shopping and this kind of stuff is brilliant, I think. Dr. Mann: Definitely, you know, it all fits the sort of general basic strategy of rearranging things so that you don’t keep encountering temptation. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: If you don’t encounter it, you’re not going to have it. Annie: And that was kind of like a, I don’t want to say a will power hack, but that was one of the things you mentioned in your book that, like, you don’t have to rely so much on willpower or self-control or self-discipline or say no all the time if you can curate your environment to reduce those temptations, right ? Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly. Ideally you don’t want to ever have to say no, you know, ideally you just don’t want to come up, you know. Once a food is on your plate, for example, forget it, you’re eating it. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: If you want to keep things from getting to that point where there’s no hope of resisting it. Jen: Right and we, like, even small things, we were talking about this with our Balance365 community the other day. Simple things like dishing up dinner at the island or on the stove and taking it to the table rather than having all your dishes on the table to dish up from is just a really small hack that you could use to not have seconds or to not, you know, over dish up kind of thing. Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly and that works because, as we talk about a lot in the book, because people are lazy and small obstacles slow us or stop us. That’s a small obstacle. I could get up from the table and walk 4 feet. That is shocking how many people that stops. Lauren: And I’ve heard you talk about it’s not even just getting up but just moving it further than your arm can reach. Dr. Mann: There’s actually a study that shows that one of my colleagues in the Netherlands literally straining your arm is enough to slow people down. Annie: That’s like the, there’s, I have a salt lamp on the opposite side of my room when I turn it on at night and half the time I get into bed and I’m like “Ugh, that lamp is still on” and I swear more often than not I just sleep with it on because I’m too lazy to get out of bed to turn the lamp on, so like I cannot be inconvenienced. Dr. Mann: I am going to one up you on that sometimes I’m in bed on my back but I really prefer to sleep on my side and I just can’t muster the energy to like just friggin roll half my body over, half! Annie: That and you actually, you actually cover small inconveniences or small opticals is also covered in your book because you tell a story about is it toilet paper. Dr. Mann: Yes, I read that online, as, I was so excited when I read that online so it was a budget tip for strapped households was to when you get the roll toilet paper to smush it a little so that it doesn’t turn easily. Jen: Brilliant. Dr. Mann: You know, so when you go to pull it off it tears off right away, so that leads people to use less toilet paper. Jen: That, I need that for my children. Dr. Mann: Actually it’s good for if you have kids. Jen: They plug the toilet. I’m in there with the plunger once a week. Dr. Mann: It would also help with that but you know, just the fact that it stops a regular adult person from using more toilet paper is another example of how small, miniscule obstacles actually really slow us down. Jen: And Lauren, Lauren only buys single servings of ice cream so that was another one. Lauren: Well, they have them at Kroger, like the little ones ,they’re, like, you know, like, this big instead of the pint or the gallon. Annie: They’re like a little cup or like six ounces or something, 8 ounces. Lauren: Yeah or I just go out to like Dairy Queen or something instead of buying the whole gallon in my house. Dr. Mann: Buy the one. Lauren: Or even just for me is like if we make cookies or something, just putting them in the cabinet and sort of leaving them on the counter, right, we used to just leave it on the counter but if I just put it in the cabinet where I don’t see it every time I walk in the kitchen I end up just forgetting about it. Dr. Mann: Yes, keep temptations out of sights. Jen: We have a saying in our community. We also have a free Facebook community that has 40000 women in it, so they just participate in our philosophy, they haven’t bought our program but one thing we talk about in there is there’s this whole veggie tray revolution and so I started it a couple years ago and my aunt gave me a hand me down, an old circular Tupperware veggie tray and I stocked that veggie tray Sundays and Wednesdays because, like, we just eat it all by Wednesdays now, so that has substantially, and having that front and center in my fridge has substantially increased my family’s vegetable intake and I even take it out during meals. If we’re having grilled cheese sandwiches, the veggie tray will go on the table. Dr. Mann: And so it’s all prepared, like, they’re all clean. Jen: Yes, I have washed them, I chopped them I and I just it’s like, if I just need to do the minimum to set us up for success for the week it’s just that veggie tray takes me under 10 minutes and so we open the fridge and it’s just right there and we’ve also moved our treats to the cupboard above the fridge so I need to get a stool out to get out chocolate and chips and you know, people, you know, these things are simple and they work, you know, and but people just, you know, you tell them but they just, if they’re not, they’re still looking there’s like this magic pill thing going on. They don’t think it can be that simple but it is. Dr. Mann: And so the veggie tray is a good example of removing the obstacles to do something healthy. Jen: Exactly, yes, exactly. Dr. Mann: If you look in the fridge and you want a snack, you’re not going to like pull open the veggie bin, you know, get out the beats, break them, clean them, cook them- Jen: No, I’m not. Dr. Mann: But if you do that ahead, and you have a little bowl or tupperware of roasted beets, you will eat them. Jen: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Mann: Vegetables are hard work. Jen: They are hard work and so is protein. So the other thing we’ve tried to bring to people’s attention is that carbs and fat are readily available to us in convenience form everywhere, so if you want to be eating a more balanced diet, focus your energy on getting protein and vegetables and fruit prepared and as convenient to you as the nuts and the seeds and the bread and you know all of that kind of thing, because they take a lot of prep work, right. So the other thing I do is I just throw some chicken breasts in a slow cooker on Sunday night and then I take it out and I shred it and I just have a little container of shredded chicken breast which I can throw in sandwiches or wraps or do you know what I mean? So- Dr. Mann: Yeah. Jen: So yeah, it’s little, little things like that have made the biggest difference in my life and in our Balance365ers as well. Dr. Mann: That’s great, that’s good, that’s just making it easier to do the healthy thing.  Jen: Just environment. Dr. Mann: Harder to do the unhealthy thing. Jen: Yeah, just acknowledging that we’re lazy. Annie: And that’s across the board, like, your research has shown that it’s across the board, like humans in general are lazy, it’s not like these people, like, you know it’s not just me, Jen and Lauren that don’t want to prep our veggies or whatever, it’s like this is human nature and so and I feel like that’s kind of refreshing to hear because it’s not kind of, it’s very refreshing to hear because again, so many people are blaming themselves for why they can’t follow the diet, why they can’t stick with the program, it’s like, look you’re just human, like, you’re asking yourself to change a lot of things at once, to do a lot of stuff that’s really not in your wheelhouse. And it’s normal if you struggle with that. Dr. Mann: And also, can I just add, because sometimes people are like, well, all those strategies you’re saying just sound like, you know, dieting tips. Jen: Yes, they do. Dr. Mann: I don’t really mean them to be dieting tips, I mean them to be, these are just little things that you can just kind of have as habits in your life that will just help you stay in that sort of the lower part of your set point. I’m not saying that by moving the cookies to higher shelf you’re going to lose a ton of weight. Jen: Or that you should never have cookies, right. It’s not about, yeah. Dr. Mann: Right, exactly I’m just saying these are just some things that help you to just kind of stay on an even keel or maybe just aim for that slightly lower part of your set range that you’re already within. Jen: There’s, I wanted to address that too, as well because I feel like there is, as far as environment, there is a lot of tips you can use and they can be used as tools or they can be used as weapons against you, right and so in diet culture these things are often used as weapons and it’s funny because I used to some of the tools I use today to stay healthy, balanced and at a leaner weight, I used to use when I was dieting trying to live a weight below what was healthy for me and I was going hungry all the time, so what would happen to me was I wouldn’t buy the cookies, I wouldn’t buy the ice cream. I didn’t want any of that in my house because my cravings were so strong because I was going hungry all the time, so when that stuff was occasionally brought in my house I would eat it all. I would go nutso on a pint of ice cream in a night or a gallon and so it’s kind of like talking in a nuanced way, right, to go like, “You can use these as tools or you can use them as weapons, it all depends on where you’re at and what’s going on inside your head.” Dr. Mann: That’s really true and that’s a really important point that when you deny yourself something, when you restrict certain categories of foods or certain foods it’s going to eventually backfire. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: It’s amazing how fast you start to want those things you restrict. I mean, we did a study like this, I think I talk about it in the book where we forbade people from eating a food that they didn’t even love, right, it was sort of in the middle for I can’t remember how long- Jen: 3 weeks I think. Dr. Mann: Yeah. Annie: Radishes. Jen: I feel like I just know your book. Annie: Radishes and chocolate for 3 weeks? Dr. Mann: I better know my details well, in any case, the point I was trying to make about that, the main point of that study just was that very quickly they started really wanting those things that they couldn’t have. So not worth it to deny yourself certain things and instead try to just eat those things in reasonable portions. So I cannot live without ice cream and there’s really no reason to do so but my ice cream trick, when you guys mentioned some of yours, I’ll add one more is I make my husband serve me because he will serve a reasonable portion and put it away and our freezer is crazy cold so it’s not even going to be easy to take more because it’s just, you know, he’ll wait and do what you need to do. So let people wait on you, folks. Annie: That’s just good life advice. Jen: Yes, the other one thing for your freezer- Lauren: I can get behind that. Jen: I bake for my kids for their school lunches and I keep it in the freezer so I, if I want banana chocolate chip muffin it’s totally fine but I have to think about that, right, I have to take it out and then I have to unthaw it in order for me to eat it where, you know, just talking about those barriers in environment, just putting a little bit of barrier between you and that thing causes you to pause and go “Do I really want this or is this just an impulse?” Dr. Mann: Exactly, you need that pause. My 14 year old son is obsessed with baking. Well, you know, classic pre-teen boy, you know, scrawny, looks like a paper clip, you know, no body fat at all. But he’s killing me there are constantly baking here and the good news is he’s obnoxious and doesn’t always let me have any because he wants to take it all the school because he brings it to a certain class, you know, there’s 24 kids in that class. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Every recipe makes 24 so he often doesn’t let me have any, thank God, but a lot of the time he does and it’s like once or twice a week this is going on in my house. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: That’s a lot of like baking. Jen: Extra baking. Dr. Mann: That’s a lot of baking. Jen: Yes. Annie: So, Dr. Mann, I know we’re approaching an hour, I feel like we could do this for the whole time though or a couple hours at least, just to kind of wrap up, all of your research and your experience, personal and professional, inside your book as we’ve shared so much already, you provide a lot of gold little nuggets as to how people can improve their health, reframe their mindsets, even thinking about food in terms of healthy and unhealthy, how to alter their habits to support sustainable weight loss if that’s what they’re after but really, you seem to boil it down to just, as Jen said, sensible no-fuss advice, like exercise regularly and create reasonable eating habits and that you believe that that will help you reach your goals with minimal effort, is that really it? Because if so, that super refreshing. Dr. Mann: That is it. But I will elaborate a little bit because here’s where we have to get our heads and our heads are not there yet but  where we need to get our heads is if we are exercising the recommended amount, which is 150 minutes per week if we are eating, you know, a reasonable number of servings of vegetables per day and if we’re keeping our stress level under control, not smoking, if we’re doing those things, whatever we weigh when we’re doing those things should be where we want to be. We need to define that weight as our perfect weight because that is what you weigh when you’re behaving in a healthy way. So, I don’t know, this comes up all the time with people. Everyone thinks “if I do the exercise I’m supposed to do I’ll get thin,” but that’s not true. Exercise doesn’t necessarily make you a lot thinner but it does make you healthier. What I keep pushing on people is “Behaving in healthy ways makes you healthier, even though it might not make you thinner or as much thinner as you want it to.” So whatever we weigh when we’re behaving in healthy ways we have got to find a way to be OK with that. Jen: Right, except you have a whole section on acceptance, right and let your, do what’s good for you and let your body be what it’s going to be and just accept this, like it’s actually so freeing. Dr. Mann: Yes, just if you keep the focus on health and not weight everything makes so much more sense. Jen: Yeah, I love that. Dr. Mann: You do these healthy behaviors, they make you healthier, but then again, maybe not thinner, maybe not as much thinner as you want. Annie: I wonder how many of our listeners minds are just like blowing right now hearing that. Like, behaving in a healthy way will make you healthier, it might not make you thinner but it will improve your health. Dr. Mann: Isn’t it crazy that that’s mind blowing?  I said that to some radio guy one time and he’s like “I don’t know, that’s kind of a hard sell.” Lauren: You know, well, it’s only a hard sell because you have, you know, diet companies telling you the opposite everywhere all day, every day. Dr. Mann: Seriously, you know, And because people don’t actually value their health the way they all say they do. Jen: Yeah, they value thinness. Dr. Mann: Yeah, if people truly valued health, that wouldn’t be a remarkable thing to say at all. Jen: We had a psychologist post in our group the other day she had read your book preparing for this podcast and she said “I’m a psychologist and I’m reading this book and I feel my resistance towards it, like, I feel it” and she, but you know, she’s acknowledging, like, “This is programming. This is diet culture,” so she was trying to tell everybody, like, “I am a professional and I am resisting this, like, I have a mental block there that I don’t want to hear it. I still want to believe there’s a magic pill out there” and so of course, the general population that isn’t even educated with psychology, you know, of course, there’s a massive block there, massive. Dr. Mann: And I see that and I see that in anonymous comments out there, the people who come up to me are like, “This is freeing, this changes everything, hallelujah” and the people who are like, “I can’t, no, I must believe that I can lose a ton of weight and keep it off.” Yeah, I don’t hear from those people I just hear mean comments. Jen: Right, but they just pursue people who that, whose ideas support their, you know, how they want to see the world right and you know what, honestly, when I embraced these ideals, it was, I went through a pretty big slump of emotion, like, it was like grief. I had to grieve and because it was, yeah, it was, it was an idea that I had based a lot of my life around and spent a lot of time energy and money and the more invested you’re into something, the more you resist that it doesn’t work and trying to convince different gurus or fitness professionals that have built their whole careers and social followings on selling thinness, trying to convince them of that will be even harder because they are so deeply invested in it. Dr. Mann: Oh yeah, they’re the worst. Jen: And so I think a grieving process is like pretty normal when you, like, you have the freedom but then it’s like, you know, you go through these different stages of, like, “Oh, well that sucks” or you feel somebody shame come up and your trigger, that’s kind of your trigger that typically will take you into dieting behaviors to feel like you’re actually in control of that but you’re not and you’re just realizing, “I am not in control” and that can be very depressing, right but but also very freeing on the other side once you fully accept that/ Dr. Mann: Yeah, again, we just have to remember the one thing that truly, truly matters is our health. Jen: Yes. Absolutely. Dr. Mann: You know, have someone close to you die too young and suddenly it becomes very, very real, you know, you have nothing without your health. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: So keep that in mind as the goal. The goal is health. Not some number on the scale and they don’t measure health with that number on the scale. Jen: Right and and including psychological health in that because I have had people around me succumb to eating disorders and that’s a very real thing in our society and it has very, anorexia has very high mortality rates and so- Dr. Mann: The highest of any mental illness. Jen: Yes and so and it’s just a horrible life, right even if you don’t, even if it doesn’t lead to you passing away and dying, it’s a horrible place to be and it is not healthy and it’s, you know, this is very real as far as, you know, a lot of people think of unhealthy as, you know, very large and morbidly obese and eating and eating but there is the other end where there’s a lot of people succumbing to eating disorders as well. Dr. Mann: Yeah, it’s true. Annie: Dr. Mann, I cannot thank you enough. This is so much fun. Is there a place that people can connect with you? Do you hang out on, I already stalked you on Instagram it doesn’t look like you’re- Dr. Mann: I never post, I’m basically on Instagram to spy on my 14 year old. I don’t expect he’ll see this. Annie: Excellent. Are you on Facebook or your website? Where can people catch up with you or stay on top of what you’re working on? Dr. Mann: I guess I’m on Facebook or Twitter more but again, on Facebook I post but mostly political stuff, on Twitter I only lurk, I’m there,  if you want to find me, if you want to talk to me, tweet at me. Annie: OK. Jen: OK. Dr. Mann: Or do the same on Facebook. Annie: Awesome we’ll put that in the show notes so people can connect with you if they want to follow up with you but this was so fun. It was just like talking to a friend that knows a lot about nutrition. Dr. Mann: It sounds like you’re doing awesome stuff so I’m so glad you’re out there doing it. Annie: Yeah, we’re trying. Jen: Thank you. Lauren: Thank you. Annie: OK, we’ll talk soon ladies, thanks for joining us. Jen: Bye. Lauren: Alright, bye!   The post 53: Secrets from the Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann appeared first on Balance365.