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In this episode of “The VBAC Link Podcast,” Meagan is joined by Lauren from Alabama. Lauren's first birth was a Cesarean due to breech presentation where she really wasn't given any alternative options. Her second was a VBAC with a head-down baby, and her third was a breech VBAC with a provider who was not only supportive but advocated on her behalf!Though each of her births had twists and turns including PROM, the urge to push before complete, frequent contractions early on, and NICU time, Lauren is a great example of the power that comes from being an active decision maker in birth. She evaluated pros and cons and assumed the risks she was comfortable with. Thank you, Lauren, for your courage and vulnerability in sharing not only your birth stories with us but also your incredible birth video!Lauren's YouTube ChannelCleveland Clinic Breech ArticleThe VBAC Link Blog: ECV ExplainedNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. If you have ever wondered if a breech vaginal birth or a breech VBAC is possible, let me just tell you right now, the answer is yes and our friend Lauren today is going to share her story to confirm that it is 100% possible. Obviously, we do have some breech VBAC stories on the podcast but they are few and far between. I mean, Lauren, when you were going through it, did you hear a lot of breech births in general let alone VBAC? Did you hear a lot of people having those? Lauren: No. I had heard a few on The VBAC Link but that was really it. I did a lot of research. Meagan: Yes and it's so unfortunate. This story is a double VBAC story but also a breech VBAC which we know a lot of people seek the stories for this because as she just said, there is not a lot of support out there when it comes to breech birth in general. We have a client right now who was just told that her baby was breech and they've already said, “We're going to try to flip this baby but if not, it's a C-section.” They didn't even talk about breech vaginal birth being an option and it makes me so sad. I'm really, really excited to get into your episode. You are in Alabama. Is that correct? Lauren: I am. Meagan: Awesome. So any Alabama mamas, listen up especially if you have a breech VBAC but VBAC in general. If someone is willing to support a breech VBAC, I'm going to guess that they are pretty supportive of VBAC in general. We do have a Review of the Week so we will get into that. This is by sarahinalaska. It says, “HBA2C attempt”. It says, “Thank you, thank you. Your podcast came to me at such an amazing time. You ladies are doing something amazing here. I'm planning on (I'm going to) have an HBAC after two C-sections in February. I look forward to listening to your podcast on repeat to fuel my confidence, ability, and knowledge.” Sarahinalaska, this has been just a minute so if you had your VBAC or just in general, if you are still listening, let us know how things went and congratulations. Late congratulations because this was a couple of years ago. Meagan: Okay, everybody. Lauren, thank you again for being here. Lauren: Thank you for having me. Meagan: Yes, so okay. Obviously, every VBAC journey starts with a C-section so if you want to start right there. Lauren: Yeah. So my first son was about 7 years ago. He was born by C-section. He was also breech. Meagan: Oh, interesting. Okay. Lauren: He was breech through the entire pregnancy. We had talked to my doctor about doing the version but at 36 weeks, my water broke. Meagan: Okay. Lauren: So once your water breaks, you can't attempt a version. I went to the hospital and they said that it would have to be a C-section at that point. I really didn't have the knowledge that I do now and basically, it was worded as “I don't have an option” and that's just it. So that's what we did. Meagan: Yeah. It's so common. Even with non-breech, there are so many times when we come into our birth experience and we are left feeling like we don't have an option. Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: It's just so hard to know. Obviously, that's why we created this podcast so you know all of your options. And then talking about flipping a baby and doing an ECV after your water broke, that is something I've only seen one time in 10 years of practicing so most providers will be like, “Nope. I won't even attempt it.” I was actually floored when my client was actually offered that. Obviously, it's a more difficult experience and it can be stressful on the baby as well so there's that to consider. She ended up trying it. He tried it twice and it didn't happen and then they ended up going into the OR. So okay. Baby was breech. Do you know why baby was breech? Did they say anything about your uterus or any abnormalities there? Lauren: No. They said sometimes it just happens. They knew how badly I wanted to have a vaginal birth and they said, “You are an excellent candidate for a VBAC.” So I was like, “Okay, great.” Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: That's when I really took a deep dive into birth in general because the stuff that they were saying just didn't sound right to me. Meagan: They said you were a candidate. So where did your VBAC journey start as you were diving in? How did that begin? Did you do that before pregnancy or after you fell pregnant? Lauren: Before pregnancy. Probably before the time I came home from the hospital with my son, I was already researching. Meagan: Baby was a couple of days old and you're like, “And let's figure this out.” Listen, I get that. That's exactly how I was too with becoming a doula. It was literally two days after I had my C-section. I signed up to become a doula. Okay. You started diving in and what did you find? Lauren: It was very shocking to me how most providers don't practice evidence-based. I found out the difference between evidence-based versus the standard of care. I was shocked about that too. I was just like, How can you do that as a doctor when you've got all this evidence here? But another doctor is practicing this way so it's okay for you to do that. Meagan: Right. It becomes the norm or it has become the norm. Yeah. Okay. So you get pregnant and you know VBAC is possible. Tell us that VBAC story. Lauren: So that was just a wonderful experience but part of my research, I joined ICAN and I wanted the most VBAC-supportive provider out there. I did switch providers and I switched even before I was pregnant. Right when we were trying, I was like, I need to get in with a provider who is supportive. I found a wonderful provider. The pregnancy was great. I did all the things. I sat on the birth ball instead of on the couches. I made sure to take walks every day. I kept up with my chiropractic care. All of that were just tips that I had seen so I did that. She was head down by 20 weeks so I was super excited about that and she waited until 40+3 which was also a big thing for me because with my first son, they took him to the NICU so I did not want the NICU. The NICU was a horrible experience. I was like, Please, please, please hold on until 37 weeks. 40 would be great.She did. She held on until 40. It was funny too. It was like a switch flipped at that point and I was like, okay. Now I want to get her out. I was eating the spicy food and everything to try to get labor started. But 40+3, my water broke with her as well before labor started. I panicked a little bit because I didn't want to be on a clock. Although I felt that I was with a good provider, I still hadn't birthed with her yet and I've heard stories about people having this doctor who tells them everything they want to hear and then they get in the birth room and it's completely different. Meagan: The bait-and-switch, yeah. It's so hard because they talk about how we have to have this proven pelvis to be considered the best candidate or to have full faith in our ability, but at the same time, I feel like sometimes from us at a patient's standpoint, they need to prove to us. They need to prove to us that they are supportive throughout. Lauren: Yes. For sure. So pretty quickly after my water broke, I started pumping and while I was pumping, the contractions started so I felt so much better. I was like, Okay, good. Now we've got contractions going. I had a doula at that point as well because I felt like having a doula was going to be extremely important for a VBAC. I called her and let her know. She came over and she just hung out a little bit. We did a henna on my belly and we just talked and talked through some fears and excitement and stuff like that. Then she said, “Well, I'm going to go get my stuff. Why don't you lay down and take a nap and see if once things pick up, we can go to the hospital?” I said, “That sounds great.” This was my first time experiencing labor because with my son, even though my water broke, I never had contractions. They just went straight to the C-section. I went upstairs and I laid down on my left side. Within a minute, I was just like, Whoa, these feel totally different. This is crazy. Probably within 30 minutes or so, I was having contractions every 2-3 minutes. Meagan: Whoa!Lauren: Yeah. I was just like, This just picked up really fast. I think I was supposed to already go in by now. Meagan: Were they intense as well on top of being close or were they not as intense but just close? Lauren: In hindsight, they were not intense but it was my first time having labor and they were more intense than the beginning contractions. “Okay, they are more intense. They are close together. I've got to go now.” I was panicking. We made it to the hospital. They checked me and I was 2 centimeters. Meagan: Okay. Lauren: I was like, “You've got to be kidding me.” Meagan: Yes. That's the hardest thing because we are so focused on the time. We are told if they are this close together, it's time to come in but we sometimes forget about the other factors of intensity and length and what's the word I'm looking for? I was going to say continuous but they are that pattern always. They are sticking to that pattern. They are consistent. They are consistent, yeah. Okay, so you're 2 centimeters which is great by the way. It's still great. Lauren: Yes. Oh, and I forgot to mention too that another that was like, Okay, I probably am with a good provider, I did call her after my water broke and she said, “What are your plans?” I just said, “I'd like to stay home as long as possible and contractions haven't started yet but I'm going to try to start pumping and get them started.” I said, “I'd like to wait until tomorrow morning to come in if nothing has started.” She was like, “Okay. Sounds like a good plan. Just let me know what you need.” I was like, Wow. She let me go past 24 hours. Meagan: Yeah. I just love that she started out, “What's your plan?” Lauren: Yes. Meagan: Versus, “This is what you have to do now.” Lauren: Yes. Exactly. She is wonderful and you'll see through the story how amazing she is too. But anyway, we get to the hospital and I actually started out with a wonderful nurse. The hospital policy is continuous monitoring. Meagan: Yeah, very common. Lauren: But I did not want that. I was so lucky because the nurse who started, she was about to leave. Her shift was about to end but she let me start on intermittent monitoring so I was able to get up, walk around, get on the birth ball just to help things moving. Shortly after that, she left and the next nurse was not so nice about it. She told me, “It's our policy. Yada yada.” I said, “Look. I've been doing the intermittent. I'm fine with the intermittent. That's what I'm going to stick with.” She said, “You're going to have to sign a form.” I said, “Bring it on.” Meagan: Yeah. Lauren: I signed the form and I was just like, “That's fine. I have no problem signing a form to say this is my choice.” Then we labored in the hospital room for several hours and my doula suggested I got in the shower at one point and that was amazing. It was euphoric. It felt so good to get in the hot shower and I was progressing slightly more than a centimeter an hour which I know is what they look for so things just progressed pretty slowly and then that night at around– oh, well actually once I hit 6 centimeters, my body started pushing. Meagan: Oh, yes. That can happen. Lauren: I was terrified when I found out I was only 6 centimeters because they kept saying, “You need to stop pushing or you're going to the OR.” I was like, “You don't understand. I'm not pushing. My body is doing it.” It was several hours of working with my doula to try to stop my body from pushing. Every time I had a contraction, and they were still going every 2 minutes–Meagan: Did they give you any tips on how to cope with that or how to avoid pushing like horse lips or things like that?Lauren: The thing that worked best for me was opening my mouth and saying, “Ahhhh.” So that helped a lot but I would still say that 50% of the time I could not stop the pushes. I still remember that nurse saying which was not helpful at all, “Are you pushing? That's the quickest way to the OR.” Meagan: Ugh. Not very kind. You're like, “I'm trying not to. Can you see what I'm doing here?”Lauren: Yes. Then my doctor came in around 11:00 that night to check me and she said, “Oh, you're complete.” I just remember being like, “Thank God.” I said, “Does that mean I can push now?” They're like, “Yes.” That was the best thing I had heard because that was all I wanted to do was push. I was already in the bed because they had me on the monitor at that point. I was on my back so they just leaned the bed back. I didn't really want to push on my back but at that point, I was like, “I'm not moving. I'm just going to push how I am.” I pushed. It took about 20 minutes and she just slowly came out. It was– oh, I'm going to get emotional. It was wonderful. My doula was also my birth photographer and she got some pictures. She got a picture of my husband. It's really sweet. I hope he's okay with me telling this but she got a picture of him crying. It was when she was almost out. I asked him about it and he said, “I just knew at that point you were going to do it. I knew how important it was to you.” Sorry. Meagan: I'm sure he had that overwhelming flood of emotions like, “I know this is important and I can see it. She's there. She's going to do this.” Lauren: Yes. It was wonderful too and then I got to hold her on my chest for a while but they weren't too thrilled with her breathing so they never took her out of the room but they did take her over to the table and they were suctioning her and stuff like that. I started feeling a little panicky because with my son, what happened was after my C-section, they showed him to me. I got to kiss him and touch him and all that but then they started leaving the room with him. I was like, “Whoa, where are you going?” They were like, “Oh, we've got to take him to the NICU because he's having trouble breathing,” but nobody told me anything. They just started leaving with him. I was panicking thinking that was going to happen with my daughter. I was like, “Please, please, please just give her to me. All she needs is me. She's going to be fine. Just give her to me.” The nurse was like, “No. She needs suction. We need to do our job,” but my doctor was so wonderful. She came over and said, “What they're doing right now is suctioning her because they are not happy with her oxygen level.” She sat there and she told me, “Okay, now she's at 94.1%. Now she's at 94.2%. Now she's at 94.3%.” Every time that thing went up, she would tell me. She was just so calm and it was like she got me. She understood. Meagan: She understood what you needed in that moment. Lauren: Yes. Yes. Another thing too which I thought was really interesting is that first off, she did ask before she did anything. We got half of my daughter's head out but she got a little stuck so the doctor was like, “You know, we really want to get her out.” She said, “I think the vacuum might help or are you okay with me manually helping you?” I said, “What do you mean by that?” She said, “I could just insert my fingers and tilt her chin. I think that will get her out.” I said, “Yeah. Let's do that one.” So she did. She went in and popped her little chin and then she came out.Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: But it was nice to be asked instead of told what needed to be done. Meagan: Well not even told and just have it done. Lauren: Yeah, just do it. I've heard that a lot and it was crazy because that actually was going to happen with my first son. Before my nurses knew I was breech, they came in and they started. They were about to put medicine in my IV and I said, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing?” She's like, “Oh, this is Pitocin. We need to get your contractions started.” I was like, “No, I don't want Pitocin.” She's like, “We need to birth him within 24 hours or he's going to be a C-section.” So it was just crazy the difference in being told what was going to happen and being asked for not only my opinion but my consent. Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. That's so important. Women of Strength, if you are listening to this, please, please, please I beg of you to help you know. I don't know how we can let you know even more but you guys have the power to say no and consent is so important. Your consent is so important with anything, even just getting Pitocin drips. If anything is happening to your body, you have the right to say no and you always can question. You can pause and say, “Tell me all of the risks here” or whatever. You don't just have to have it be done to you. You do not have to. Lauren: Yes. Meagan: It's hard to say no in that moment. Lauren: It is. It is. Meagan: It's hard to say no especially when they are coming in and making it sound like something you need. Whether it's something you need or not, you still deserve to have consent. Lauren: Yes, exactly. Then they throw that at you where it's like, “Oh, the baby will be in danger.” You're like, if you're not knowledgable then you'll be like, “Okay, then. I don't want my baby in danger.”Meagan: Exactly. Of course, we don't. Duh. Of course, we do not want our baby in danger but most of the time rarely is our baby in danger if we are not starting Pitocin right away. Yeah. Awesome. So you had this beautiful vaginal birth with support. It was a way different experience with good, true informed consent even into the postpartum period which should keep continuing anytime you are under care with anyone like this no matter in hospital or out of hospital. This kind of consent should continue. Lauren: Yes, for sure. Meagan: Awesome. Awesome. And then baby number three. Cute little baby. I don't know if I'm allowed to say his name so I won't. Lauren: Oh, yeah. You're fine. Ollie, yeah.Meagan: I was going to say I got to see on the recording just before we got started that he was another breechie. Lauren: Yes, he was. I was just like, Oh my goodness. His pregnancy was so similar to my first son. It was a little freaky. I had a lot of anxiety to work through because of that. I was like, This can't happen again. He was breech the entire time and basically stayed in the same position. He moved his little head around and that was about it. This time, I was I guess a little more– I don't know if cocky is the right word but confident that everything would be fine. I was a little more lazy. I didn't do as many walks as I should have. I sat on the couch a little more than the birth ball and things like that. I was like, Oh, he'll be fine. So at about 20 weeks when he was still breech, I was like, Maybe it won't be fine. Maybe I need to get this going. I started trying to do a little more of that stuff. Also, my doula had moved out of state so I was like, Oh no. Meagan: Dang it yeah. Lauren: I know it's so important and having a doula was definitely important for me. I started the search for a new doula which ended up turning out great. I loved both doulas so I was very pleased but I was very nervous. But yeah. I found my doula while I was pregnant and then I just had so much anxiety about my first son's birth that I needed a plan ahead of time basically. I talked to my doctor about it and I went in there just nervous to even bring it up. I said, “So he's still breech. I know that he's got plenty of time to turn but I am nervous because I have a history of this with my first son. He was breech and I had to have a C-section.” I said, “What are your thoughts on a breech vaginal?” She goes, “Well, I don't see why we couldn't.” I was like, “What?”Meagan: You're like, “I wasn't expecting that.” Lauren: She's like, “You've already had a VBAC. You did fine. He can't be sideways. He's got to be to where he could actually come out breech. It's just something that we'll talk about.” She did mention an ECV as well and she was like, “We've got a long way away but I don't have a problem doing a breech VBAC with you.” I immediately just felt so much relief. Meagan: I bet. Lauren: Yes. So we went along the pregnancy like that and then at 37+3 at 5:00 in the morning, my water broke. Meagan: 3 for 3 water breaking, you and I. They say 10% but when you're 3 for 3, you're like, “Hmm.”Lauren: That's what I was thinking and the breech stuff is only 3-4% are breech and I had it twice. It's like, How is this possible? But yeah, my water broke around 5:00 AM and me running to the bathroom, I woke my son up and he came in. It was really sweet. He got in bed with me and we just cuddled for about an hour and I talked to him about how his baby brother was going to come today. It was just a really nice moment to cuddle with him. Meagan: Oh yeah. Those moments are so precious because you're like, these are the last moments of just us as a family of 4 and now we're adding a 5th and these are the last little moments together without little siblings. I'll always remember that. So we did that. We cuddled for about an hour and then the contractions actually started without me having to pump. This time, I was going to wait a little bit longer before pumping because I wondered if the contractions every 2 hours with my daughter for the whole labor was maybe because of the pumping. Having contractions that close made things really difficult. Meagan: Oh yeah. Not a lot of a break. Every 2 minutes, there's not a ton of a break especially when they were a minute long. Not a lot there. Lauren: No. So I was like, Maybe that will change. I knew I could handle it but I was like, If I don't have to, that would be great. They started pretty slow about 6 minutes apart or so really gently. At around 6:00, I went ahead and woke my husband up and let him know. I called my parents. I had texted my doula but I went ahead and called her just to let her know. I called my doctor. She again just asked me, “What are your plans?” I just said, “Stay here to let things pick up and then head to the hospital.” She was like, “Okay, that sounds good.” I just labored at home. My parents live 2 hours away but they were coming to get our older two kids. I was going to try to pack the hospital bag because I had not done that yet. Meagan: Well, at 37 weeks. Lauren: That was the plan for that weekend. I kept having to sit down because of the contractions. My husband said, “Let me do it. Tell me what you need.” I would just give him the instructions as I just bounced on the birth ball. We got that done and my parents showed up. They brought me a big smoothie because I was like, “I want to eat but I don't want to chew so get me a smoothie.” That was really nice just to have something in my stomach and give me some energy and stuff. They got here at around 9:30 and at around almost 11:00, I was like, “These contractions are starting to feel real.” I had a first birth reference at that point. Meagan: Yeah, like more intense and frequent and strong. Lauren: Exactly. Oh, but I will say by 7:30 again, at 7:30 that morning, I was back at 2 minutes apart. Meagan: Oh man. It's just something your body does. Lauren: That's just me, yeah. But they weren't intense and this time, I knew. I was like, Okay. I know this is not intense. I'm still able to talk through them. I'm able to recover very well, but then right around 11:00, I was like, “Things are getting really intense now so I think we need to go.”We left for the hospital and let my doula know. I called my doctor as well and it was really wonderful talking to her too because she said, “You know, when you go in there, make sure you are confident. Tell them this is the plan. You are going to do a breech VBAC. We have already discussed this.” I think she was worried too. The hospital, I will say, I do not feel was supportive. I think it was mainly that they were scared. I think she knew that too, but having her in my corner was what I needed. Meagan: Yeah, very huge. Lauren: We got to the hospital and she had gone ahead and called them to directly admit me so I didn't have to do triage and all that. That made it so much quicker. We got there probably around 11:40 or so and we were already in our room and the doctor was coming in by 12:00. She came in and she checked me. She was like, “All right. You're already at about a 5 or a 6 so you're doing great.” She's like, “I'll be in the hospital for a while so they'll just call me when you need me. Just do your thing. I was like, “All right. Here we go.” I did get in the bed for a little while so they could do the IVs and stuff like that. I told them I wanted the wireless monitor. They were having trouble working it but they still never made me do any monitors because I told them I can't do continuous unless it is wireless because I need to be able to move. They didn't argue with that so that was nice. Once they got all that done, I got on the birth ball. We played some music that I had preplanned and my doula and my husband both helped me work through the contractions then it was 12:58 which was less than an hour when my body started pushing again. I'm like, You've got to be kidding me. I can't do this.They called the nurse in because I was like–Meagan: Last time this happened at 6 centimeters. Please don't tell me. Lauren: They came to check and she was like, “Oh my gosh, she's complete and he's right there.” I was like, “What?” Meagan: Yay!Lauren: Yes. They called my doctor. I was panicking a little bit but she wasn't there. She was in the hospital but because she wasn't in my room and I went from a 5 to complete in less than an hour, I'm like, “Is this baby just going to shoot out of me?” I was like, “I need her to be here.” Anyway, she got there very quickly and this time, I knew I didn't want to be on my back so they had me just try some different positions but I really liked when the bed was sat up and I was facing the back and leaned over it so I was upright. Then I was able to move my pelvis around and just find a comfortable position. I really liked that. I started pushing because I could. He just very, very slowly came out and my doula was recording because I wanted a recording of my last birth but I was just too out of it to even ask for it so I had let my husband and doula ahead of time that I wanted it so my doula took care of that. She was there recording it. Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: Yeah. I was pushing I remember this one hurt a lot more than my daughter. I think they stretch you differently. I remember panicking to my husband, “Oh my gosh. This hurts.” He was just slowly coming out but I couldn't see what was going on. With my daughter, they rolled out a mirror so I could see what was going on. I felt like I was pushing wine. I didn't ask him to but my husband stepped in and he was like, “Okay, I see a leg now. Oh, there goes the other leg.” He started just telling me body parts and I was able to get a visual which was so helpful to be able to know how much was coming out. When it got to his chest, it felt like my body was just like, Okay, we're done. The contractions just stopped and I was like, “What's going on? They were coming so fast and now they're just chilling out or whatever.” They were like, “It's fine. We'll just wait until the next contraction.” They did start coming back but it didn't feel as strong and it felt slower. I don't know what that was about. It could have just been my perception too. He came all the way out up to his neck and then he wasn't really coming much further after he got to his neck. The doctor was turning him because he had the cord wrapped around his neck twice. He just didn't seem to be moving like he was supposed to. She said, “I need to check and see if his head is flexed,” and it was not. She had to put both hands inside to flex his head so that it was in the correct position and she had turned him over to try and get some of the cord off as well. It got a little intense there for a minute. She said, “Okay. I need you to get on your hands and knees,” so I did that and that wasn't working. She said, “Okay, mom. I want to get you to flip over. I just need a different angle to get him out.” I flipped over on my back which I was completely fine with at that point. I wasn't panicked. I had a little bit of anxiety and fear but I wasn't really scared because my doctor seemed so confident in that she's got this. We just need to do something a little different to get him out. We flipped on my back and she got his head exactly where it needed to be. I did two more pushes and he came out. He had gotten stuck longer than they wanted him to so she said, “We're going to go ahead and cut the cord and get him to the nursery team who was coming in” because they needed to resuscitate him just from the time it took. Meagan: He was shocked Lauren: She said too, “He's going to be okay. He's trying to cry but he needs help.” I said, “Okay.” I felt good at that point. I knew that if he was trying to cry that he was still conscious. The NICU team– it was charted wrong how long he was stuck. I think they panicked a little bit because they just went and they intubated him immediately and they said, “Okay, we need to get him to the NICU.” I hadn't even touched him at that point. I said, “Can I touch him or kiss him or talk to him before you take him?” I asked my doctor that and she said, “Can you bring him over here so she can give him a little pat before you take him?” The nurse looked over and she goes, “She can see him from where she's at,” and they left with him. Meagan: Oh. Oh. Oh boy. Lauren: To me, it did feel like a punishment for doing a breech. They went back and looked and they charted that he was stuck for 5 minutes. We had a video and he was stuck for a minute and 40 seconds. Huge difference. Meagan: Very big, yeah. Lauren: They went immediately to what they would do with a baby who had been stuck for 5 minutes. They charted his APGAR as 0 but my doctor said, “It can't be because he whimpered when he got out so he's got to have at least something.” It was all just a big overreaction at that point. They were supposed to monitor him for 4 hours to make a decision and they immediately just made the decision to admit him to the NICU which meant he was stuck in NICU for at least 3 days. Then within– when I went to go see him, it was within 2 hours. They had already extubated him. He was already breathing on his own with no problems whatsoever. Meagan: He was fine. Lauren: Yeah, he was fine.The next morning, my doctor went and talked to the doctors–Meagan: The pediatricians? Lauren: Yeah. Yeah at the NICU and just let them know, “This is wrong in the chart. This is wrong in the chart,” educating them about breech VBAC. She also did talk to them about the behavior of the nurse and she said, “It was unacceptable.” They talked about that. Oh, because that same nurse, when I finally got up to the NICU to see him, she had her back turned and she didn't see me coming and I heard her talk. She goes, “Well, you know, he came out the wrong way.” Then she realized that I was behind her and she walked away. I never saw her after that. Meagan: She probably was avoiding you. Lauren: I was like, Oh my goodness. I can't believe that just happened. Meagan: Seriously. Obviously, she's got a chip on her shoulder toward people who are doing things that are actually normal, just a different variation. Lauren: After my doctor talked to them that morning, as soon as she left, they called me and they weren't going to let me breastfeed or hold him or anything like that because he had a central line in his umbilical cord and they said, “It's too risky. It could fall out.” As soon as she left, they were like, “We're going to actually let you try to latch and hold him. We'll just have to be really careful.” Meagan: Good for your doctor for advocating for you guys. Lauren: That was one of my things that I just really love about her. That's not something that she had to do. She took the time out to review everything that night. I had him on a Saturday so she reviewed everything that night, got up early the next morning, went to the NICU, advocated for me, and I'll just never forget her for that. She's my angel.Meagan: Yeah. That's how it should be. That's really how it should be. Are you willing to share her name for anyone looking for VBAC support and especially for breech? Lauren: Yeah. Her name is Dr. Robinson and she's at Alabama Women's Wellness Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Meagan: Awesome. Lauren: Yes. It's really hard to find a VBAC-supportive provider in Alabama but breech VBAC? That's hard anywhere. Meagan: I have Alabama Women's Wellness Center because we have our supportive provider list that we are working on right now to perfect so everybody can get access to that in a better way and we don't have her on there so I'll make sure to add her. Lauren: Yes. Thank you. Yeah. She's amazing. That's probably an understatement. Meagan: She sounds absolutely incredible. I'm just so happy for you. I'm so glad that you had that advocate through a provider and it sounds like the second time, it was a little bit more of that informed consent, truly wanting to incorporate you into this experience with a little less of that the second time, but holy cow. Amazing. A minute and 40 seconds, that might feel like an eternity to someone watching, but really, that's actually pretty quick and your provider knew, “Okay, let's change positions. Let's move. Let's get this going,” and baby's out. It can be common for babies to come out a little stunned breech or not breech. Sometimes they come out a little stunned and you also had a really fast transition so you went from a 5 to a 10 really fast. There are a lot of things to take into consideration there for sure. Lauren: Yeah. I think she said that they charted from the time his butt came out is what they told her and with a breech, you're supposed to chart once the shoulders are out. Meagan: Yeah, the shoulders and the neck. That makes sense that they got that mixed up. Well, I wanted to go over the different types of breech. You already said this earlier that it's kind of crazy that 3-4% of people will have a full-term breech and I know baby number one was 36 weeks but pretty much right there right around the corner of full-term. But 3-4% and you've had two so it's pretty low but we know that breech is happening. It's just not being supported. I wanted to talk about a couple of different things.There are different types of breech and that is something that I think is important to know. We've got frank breech and that's where the baby's butt is down into the vaginal canal or down and the legs are sticking right up where the baby's feet are in front. Do you know if your baby was frank breech? Lauren: Yeah, they were both frank. Meagan: Yeah. That's typically where a provider, if they are supportive, will allow a vaginal birth, and then complete breech is where the butt is down and both the hips and knees are flexed. Footling is where one or sometimes both– it's like they are either standing inside or where they are being a flamingo and doing a one-foot thing facing down. Or we know that there is transverse where the baby is sideways. Footling and transverse– I mean, transverse for sure cannot come out vaginally. Footling has some more concerns so most providers will not support that. Anyway, overall, my suggestion is if you have a breech, one, know the options to try to help rotate a baby. If you so choose, there are also risks to ECVs. We have a blog around ECV and we want to make sure it's in the show notes. We are going to link some more about breech babies as well but know that you have options. You do have options. It's not like Lauren's first where she walked in and was felt that she was stripped away of all the options. If you're looking for a VBAC-supportive provider, something that I always tell my clients and I need to suggest this more on the podcast is while you are asking questions like, “How do you support VBAC?” and all of these questions talk about, one of those questions is “What if my baby's breech? What does that look like?” I think that's a really great question to add in there because then you can know, “Okay, not only is this provider VBAC-supportive, but they are even breech-supportive.” We never know. Sometimes babies just flip and sometimes they flip in the very end. It's very rare but it happens so it's just really important to know. Add that to your list of questions as you are going through and asking for support for VBAC how they are for breech. Do you have any other things that you would suggest for someone maybe going to have or deciding to have a breech birth in general? Lauren: Just try to be as knowledgeable as you can about it because that gave me a lot of peace just knowing all the facts and just the knowledge. It made me feel a lot more comfortable with it all. Meagan: Absolutely. It sounds like you did. You just told me a stat just barely so it sounds like you are very confident and you know about breech. I would suggest the same thing. Know the pros and the cons of all three– ECV, breech vaginal, and Cesarean. Let's learn all of them. Well, thank you so much for being here with me today and sharing all of your beautiful birth stories and letting me meet your sweet Ollie via Zoom and sharing these stories to empower other Women of Strength to make the best choice for them. Lauren: Yes. I really appreciate it. I was very excited when you asked me to come on. Meagan: Oh my gosh. We are so happy to have you. Lauren: Thank you. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lauren has had three very different births. She had a peaceful C-section due to breech presentation with a difficult recovery, a wild, unmedicated VBAC, and a calm, medicated 2VBAC. Due to her baby's large size, she had to have an extra incision made during her Cesarean leaving her with a special J scar. Though her provider was hesitant to support a TOLAC with a special scar, Lauren advocated for herself by creating a special relationship with her OB and they were able to move forward together to help Lauren achieve both of her VBACs. Lauren talks about the importance of having an open mind toward interventions as she was firmly against many of the things that ended up making her second VBAC the most redemptive and healing experience of all. How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details Meagan: Hey, hey everybody. Guess what? We have our friend Lauren and her 11-day-old baby. Is that right? Lauren: Yeah. Meagan: 11 days old. You guys, I actually didn't even know that this baby existed until we popped up on the Zoom and she was holding this precious little newborn. She was like, “Surprise! I had another VBAC.” So we will be sharing, well she will be sharing her two VBACs so 2VBAC and something kind of unique about Lauren is that she has a special scar, a special J scar, correct? Lauren: Yep. Meagan: Yeah, so that happened in her first C-section. If you are listening and you have a special scar or have been told that you have a special scar, this is definitely an episode that you are going to want to put on repeat and save because I know that there are so many people out there who are told that they have a special scar and that they should never or can never VBAC again. I know we're not even getting into the story quite yet, Lauren, but did you have any flack with that? Did anyone talk about your special scar at all? Lauren: Yes. Advocating for the VBAC is probably the overarching theme of my VBAC because I really had to go to bat for myself for that without switching providers. Meagan: Yeah. We know that's so common. We see it a lot in our community just in general trying to get a VBAC let alone a VBAC with a special scar. We are going to get into her story but I have a review and I didn't even know that this was a review. It was left in a Baby Bump Canada group on Reddit actually so that was kind of fun to find. It's really nice. It says, “Seriously, I'm addicted. I find them so healing. I had an unplanned and very much unwanted C-section and I have been unknowingly carrying around all of these emotions and trauma about it since. I thought I was empowered going into my first birth, but I wasn't strong enough to stop the medical staff with all of their interventions. Don't get me wrong, I believe interventions are necessary in some instances. But looking back now, I realize those interventions were put in place to make things easier involved in delivering my baby. Anyway, I won't get into all of that here, maybe in a separate post. The point of my post is checking out The VBAC Link podcast. I listen to them all day now while caring for my babe. They also have a course you can take focusing on preparing for VBACs. Even if you just like birth stories, they have CBAC stories I believe as well. On the podcast, a guest also pointed out that what do you want for a VBAC birth– peace, redemption, etc.? She talked about how you can still feel those things if you need a Cesarean.” I love that point of view right there that you can still have peace and redemption even if you have a scheduled C-section or if your VBAC ends in a Cesarean. It says, “Another mom pointed out when she was feeling hesitant about saying okay to a C-section, her midwife said, ‘You have permission to get a C-section,' not in a way that a midwife was giving her permission, but telling this mom, ‘C-section is okay and you shouldn't feel like having one is wrong.' My baby is 8.5 months and we aren't going to try for a baby until they're about 18-24 months mostly to increase my chances of VBAC, but I really love these podcasts.” Then she says, “Okay, I'll stop raving now.” I love that. Her title is, “If you're considering a VBAC, I highly recommend The VBAC Link.” Thank you so much to– I don't actually know what your name is. Catasuperawesome on this Baby Bump Canada group. Just thank you so much for your review. As always, these reviews brighten our day here at The VBAC Link but most importantly, they help other Women of Strength find these stories like what we are going to be sharing today with Lauren's story. They help people feel empowered and educated and motivated and even first-time moms. They are really truly helping people learn how to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. I truly believe that from the bottom of my heart. Meagan: Okay, Lauren. As you are rocking your sweet, precious babe, I would love to turn the time over to you to share your stories. Lauren: Awesome, thank you. It's so nice to be here finally. I'm so excited because this podcast truly is the reason why I had my VBAC. I am kind of weirdly unique in that I didn't really feel like I had any mothering instincts. My husband and I had been married for 6.5 years before we decided to get pregnant because I always swore off children. I said, “It's not for me. I'm never going to have children. I want to travel and I want to do all of these things and children are for other people. I can't imagine myself as a mom.” My husband said, “Well, let's wait until we are 30,” because we got married really young. He was like, “Let's just wait until we are 30 and we will revisit the discussion.” I always find it kind of nice when I hear stories of women who feel similarly to the way I did because it's so relatable and I feel like we are very few and far between. That's another reason I wanted to share my story because I know there are other women out there like me. So anyway, it just so happened that at this time, my sister was pregnant. My brother was pregnant. My husband's brother was pregnant. We were like, “You know, we're almost 30. We've waited a long time. If we're going to have kids, we might as well have a kid when he or she is going to have all of these cousins.” My husband was like, “Let's start trying.” I'm like, “Great. I'm going to give it two months and if we don't get pregnant, we're not going forward with this. I'm going to say I tried and I can tell everyone I tried and that it didn't work.” Well, God has a sense of humor because two weeks later, I had a positive pregnancy test. Meagan: Two weeks later? Lauren: Yes. Meagan: So you were already pregnant when you had this conversation. Lauren: I was already taking birth control. I was multiple days into the pack. I just threw it in the trash and was like, “Let's just see what happens.” I guess when you do that, you can get pregnant. I don't know. I didn't really have a cycle. I got pregnant. I was so naive about how it all worked. I'm like, “Okay. The test is positive. I'm pregnant. It is what it is. I'm very much pregnant.” I had not doubt. I had no worry about miscarriage, nothing because I had a positive pregnancy test. That's sort of how I went through my pregnancy, kind of disconnected, very naive, and a little bit in denial that I was actually pregnant all the way up until the end. I read one book and it was called The Girlfriend's Guide to Pregnancy and it's this really sarcastic, funny book. She's very flippant about pregnancy and very straightforward with my sense of humor. I liked it because I felt the same way. I wasn't mushy or emotional. I had no connection to the pregnancy. I am pregnant. That's a fact. Anyway, at 26 weeks, my doctor was like, “You know, I think he's breech.” I was like, “Okay.” I knew what breech was, but I'm like, “Okay, what does that mean?” She was like, “Well, I would start doing some Spinning Babies exercises. Let's just keep an eye on it. I was going to a chiropractor this whole time. This is important for people to know. I was going to a chiropractor before I even got pregnant regularly. This chiropractor was seeing me. I told her that the baby was breech. “Can you help me flip him? Can we do some bodywork?” I continued to see her. I don't know if it was once or twice a week but it was often. 36 weeks rolls around and I see the midwife in the practice. She is not finding the heartbeat where it should be. She finds it up higher and she goes, “Lauren, I think your baby is still breech.” I thought there was no way. I had been seeing a chiropractor. I had been doing body work and stuff. She was like, “Well, why don't you go see the chiropractor that our practice recommends?” I'm like, “Okay.” I call this chiropractor on the phone. I leave her a message and I'm like, “I've been seeing another chiropractor, but my baby is breech.” She immediately called me right back and she was like, “What has the chiropractor been doing?” I'm like, “It feels like a normal adjustment like nothing different from before I was pregnant.” She was like, “So you've been on your side and she's been twisting your back and your pelvis away from each other?” You know how they do those kinds of adjustments? I said, “Yes.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” She's like, “How soon can you come see me?” I started seeing her. My OB actually also recommended moxibustion. She got me set up with an acupuncturist in the area which I thought was really cool that she was like, “Some people say they swear by this. You need to do more Spinning Babies. I want you to go to acupuncture.” I saw this chiropractor and she was like, “What that chiropractor is doing to you is not pregnancy-safe. She's not Webster-certified and you needed to be seeing a Webster-certified chiropractor.” That's one of my regrets because I feel like had I known, obviously, I can't say I blame her 100%. I was also working out a ton because I'm like, “I don't want this pregnancy to change my body. I'm going to be skinny.” That's all I cared about so I'm sure I was holding my abdominal muscles way too tight too. I'm sure I contributed to it as well, but just knowing that probably was a major contributor to what ended up happening to this day irritates me. But anyway, he never flipped. He was solidly in my ribcage. He never moved. I would push on his head and he would not even budge an inch. My doctor was like, “You know, I would normally recommend an ECV, but he seems very wedged in your rib cage. He's stargazing,” which means his head is tilted up. His chin is pointed up. She said, “You are on the low end of normal for amniotic fluid.” She was like, “You have these three strikes against you basically. We can try it if you want to try it, but I'm going to say it's probably not going to work.” I had to wrestle with that. I ended up calling my husband's aunt who is a labor and delivery nurse for 30 years. I asked her for her opinion. I'm like, “Have you ever been in on an ECV? Tell me about it.” Naively, I went with her advice. She said, “If your doctor is not confident, then that means it's not going to work.” She's like, “I've seen so many births and I believe that every baby should be delivered via C-section because birth is dangerous and it's scary.” I'm like, “Okay, okay. I'm just going to move forward with the C-section. I'm so glad I talked to you.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: We scheduled the C-section and you know what? It really wasn't that big of a deal. My friend's husband was actually my anesthesiologist. My doctor was there. It was very happy. It was very pleasant. I had gone out to dinner with my friends the night before. If you could plan the perfect C-section, it was the perfect C-section. I just talked to my friend's husband the whole time. Again, not connected to this pregnancy at all. It was very much like, “Okay, a baby is going to come out. What is this going to be like?” I remember the doctor held him up over the curtain. I made eye contact with him and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I'm a mom.” The nurse was like, “Do you want to do skin-to-skin?” I was like, “What's that? Sure.” “Do you want to breastfeed?” “I think so. Sure.” Very naive. What ended up happening was that the recovery was just really tough. The surgery was great, but I did not expect the recovery to be so tough. I feel like the way people speak of C-sections is so casual. “Oh, just have a C-section. I had C-sections for all my babies. It's no big deal. It's a cakewalk.” That's the mindset I went into it with. Same with my husband because I reassured him, “It's no big deal. We're just going with the flow.” No. It's awful. It's major surgery. I'm allergic to– I think a lot of people are– the duramorph that they put in the spinal so I had the most severe, horrible itching for 24 hours to the point that they basically overdosed me on Benadryl because I could not cope and my vitals were crashing. I was barely having any respiration. They had to shake me awake and put cold washcloths on my head. They were like, “Hello,” because I was having such a hard time with the itching. Not only that, but the pain. It's painful. In my surgery, backing up a little bit, the doctor said, “Wow. He's really wedged in there and he's a lot bigger than I expected. I thought he was going to be maybe 7.5-7.25 pounds.” She goes, “He tore your incision coming out because he was so big.” She was like, “You have a J incision now so your incision goes horizontal and then vertically up.” She said, “Unfortunately, that means you'll never be able to have a VBAC. You're just going to be a C-section mama.” I was just lying there like, “Whatever. You're asking me what skin-to-skin is and breastfeeding and no vaginal births.” It was just a lot of information to process and take in and make decisions about. He ended up being 9 pounds. He was a good-sized baby. Anyway, that was my c-section experience. I know I'm probably one of the lucky few who could say that their C-section was so peaceful, really no trauma from it. I just thought, “I'm fine with that.” I watched my sister have a failed TOLAC and it looked kind of traumatizing and she was still traumatized from it just a couple months before my C-section so I'm like, “It's fine. I'll just be a C-section mom, but that recovery was terrible so I'll have one more baby and that's it.” I'm not going to have any more kids. I don't want to experience that again. That was May 2019. Fast forward to COVID times. We were thinking about getting pregnant before my son turned one but COVID hit so we were like, “Let's just give it a couple of months and see what shakes up with this pandemic.” The world stopped. I'm in real estate so for a while, we weren't allowed to show any property or do anything so I just was sitting at home doing nothing. I remember one night, I was just sitting there doing a puzzle bored as heck and I'm like, “I'm going to go listen to a podcast while I do this.” My phone suggested The Birth Hour. I hope I'm allowed to say that. Meagan: I love The Birth Hour, yes. Lauren: I was scrolling through the episodes and there was one on VBAC. I'm like, “Okay, I'm going to listen to this.” The interviewee mentioned The VBAC Link so I was like, Okay, I should check that podcast out. I was like, Why am I even listening to this? This is so not my wheelhouse, childbirth. I still didn't care about it, but listening to these podcasts opened up a whole new world for me. I'm so glad I found it all before I got pregnant. I started listening to all of those podcasts then I think I found through your podcast. I don't think it was The Birth Hour. Someone mentioned Dr. Stu so I started listening to his podcast and man, that guy set fire. He had so much great information. I listened to every podcast pretty much that he had done, especially the ones on VBAC because he talks about VBAC a lot and just how it really shouldn't be a big deal or shouldn't make you high risk and all of that. At the time, he was still graciously reviewing people's op-reports for them and now he doesn't do that. I think you have to pay for it, but I emailed him. I reached out to him and I emailed him my op report and I just said, “If you could look at this, my provider told me I wasn't a VBAC candidate but I want your opinion.” He got right back to me and he was like, “There's no reason you can't have a VBAC. This scar is really not that big of a deal. Yes, it's a special scar, but it shouldn't take away from your opportunity to TOLAC.” I ended up getting pregnant in the fall of 2020 and I went to my first appointment and my OB was like, “What do you want to do for your birth this time?” I'm like, “Did she forget what she told me? She must have forgotten.” I was like, “I want a VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, I'll give you my VBAC consent form and we can talk about it as your pregnancy progresses.” I'm like, “Okay, cool.” I saw her again at 12 weeks and she was like, “I'm having some hesitations because you had such a big baby and your scar is not normal. I think we need to talk about this a little bit more but let's not worry abou tit now. We can put it off and worry about it later.” I was like, “Okay.” I was so bummed because I love my OB. Funny story, I met my OB when I was worked for a home design company called Pottery Barn and I met her one day just helping her buy pillows. I'm like, “What do you do for work?” She was like, “I'm an OB.” I'm like, “Cool. I need an OB.” I had just moved to the area so I just started seeing her. I think I was one of her first patients so she knew me. It wasn't like she was a friend and a provider I only saw once a year, but we always picked up where we left off. We had a good relationship. I really did not want to change providers. I don't want this to sound like I was being manipulative, but I was like, I'm just going to really lean into this good relationship we have and just try to win her over. As the pregnancy progressed, at the next appointment I think I saw a midwife. I talked to the midwife about the VBAC and my OB's opinion and she was like, “I've seen a lot of women VBAC with a J scar at my old practice. I don't think it's a big deal, but I'll talk to the doctor for you and hopefully, we can figure this out.” I was like, “Okay.” Then I want to say I went to my 20-week appointment and they told me, “Okay, your baby is gigantic.” They said, “He is going to be between 9 and 10 pounds,” because he was measuring two weeks ahead. They said, “But the other concern we have is that you have marginal cord insertion and that could make for a small baby.” I'm like, “Okay, so is he big, or is he small?” Clearly that marginal cord insertion is helping him not being 12 pounds? What are you trying to tell me? They're like, “Either way, we suggest that you come back at 32 weeks. We have concerns about his size. He might be a tiny peanut. He might be enormous.” I'm like, “I think I'm good. Thanks, but no thanks.” Thanks to you guys, you push advocation so much that I'm like, “This doesn't add up. You can't tell me that he's too big and too small. I'm just going to go with fundal height and palpation if my doctor has a concern, we'll come back.” I never scheduled that growth scan. I was very protective of this pregnancy. I didn't want any outside opinions. I was so afraid that if I went and had this growth scan, I would be pushed to do a C-section. I wanted an unmedicated birth. I was terrified of the hospital. I was listening to so many podcasts all day every day. It was like an obsession so then I told Meagan before we were recording is that I felt like I was almost idolizing the VBAC. It was all I could think about. It was all I could talk about and it became this unhealthy obsession. Right around 25-26 weeks, I decided to hire a doula and move forward with the VBAC. It didn't matter to me what the doctor said. Right around that time, I was having some hesitations. Just getting that pushback from my doctor and knowing he was big, I started to let the fear creep in. I told my husband, “You know what? Maybe we should just do a C-section. I think I'm overanalyzing this so much. I'm just going to push aside this research I have done because clearly I'm obsessed and it's consuming me.” Meagan: Yeah, which is easy to do. Just to let you know, it really is easy to let it consume you. Lauren: It totally is. I think that we have to take a step back sometimes, come back to reality, and if you let the information override your instincts which I think is really easy to do, I think you can get too wound up or too set on something that might not be meant for you. Speaking of instincts, that night, I still remember. I had told my husband, “I'm just going to have a C-section.” I went to bed and I had a dream. I was in the hospital in the dream and I was holding my baby and my dad walked in. I have a really great relationship with my parents but especially my dad. I love my dad. He comes in the room and he's like, “How did it go?” He was meeting the baby for the first time and I burst into tears in the dream. I said, “Dad, I didn't even give myself the opportunity to VBAC. I just went in for a C-section. I just have so much regret about it and what could have happened if I had tried to have a VBAC.” Meagan: That just gave me the chills. Lauren: Yes. It was so weird. I have never really had a dream like that before. I woke up and I was like, “There's my answer. I have to move forward with this.” Having that dream gave me this peace that there is the instinct I need to follow. Yes, I have all of this information that is consuming me, but it was like, Keep going. I hired a doula which I found through The VBAC Link Facebook page. I put it out there, “Does anyone know a doula in my area?” Julie commented and it happened to be her really good friend who had just moved back to my area. I called her and it turned out that we had mutual friends. We connected really fast. I think, like I said, it was about 26 weeks. I go to my OB again and we had more of a pow-wow like a back-and-forth on the VBAC option. She was like, “I'm just worried about it. A C-section is not that big of a deal. We could just tie your tubes and then you won't have pelvic floor issues.” False. I said, “I got a second opinion from another doctor.” I didn't say it was Dr. Stu. I didn't say it was some guy with a podcast in LA. I said, “I got a second opinion and I feel like I just want the opportunity.” We didn't really land on anything solid, but she got up to leave the room and she got to the door and she turns around. She came back over to me and she gave me this big hug. She said, “I don't want to disappoint you. I want you to be happy, but let's keep talking about this.” I was like, “Okay.” That gave me a little bit of reassurance that I was leaning into that relationship I had built with her over the years because it had been 6 or 7 years of seeing her. I would also bring her flowers. I would always try to talk to her about her life and making a social connection with someone. If you let your doctor intimidate you just from the standpoint of being a stranger, I feel like that can really change the course of your care. But if you try to get to know people, and that's not necessarily a manipulative thing, but I think it's important. It should be important in your relationship with your doctor. If you don't feel like you can connect with them, there is issue number one, but I really felt like I could connect with her. I leaned into that. I have a cookie business on the side. She loved my cookies. We just had some other things to talk about other than my healthcare and I feel like it set this foundation of mutual respect. What doctor comes over, gives you a hug, and tells you, “I want you to love your birth”? So fast forward again, I see her again the next time and she said, “Look. I brought your case to my team and because we support moms who have had two C-sections, we felt like your risk is similar to theirs and that it shouldn't risk you out of a TOLAC so I'm going to support you if this is what you want.” I had given her this analogy that I think was Julie's analogy. She said, “If you needed heart surgery and you were told that you had a 98% chance of success–” because I think my risk of rupture was 2% or maybe a little bit lower, maybe 1.5. I told her this. I'm like, “If you told me I needed heart surgery and I had a 98 or 99% chance of success, we would do it. There would be no question. I have this 1% risk of rupture. I'm coming to the hospital. What gives? I should at least be able to try.” The problem is, I'm sure some people are like, “Why didn't you just switch providers?” We have three hospitals in my area. One is 20 minutes from me and two are one hour away. One of them which is an hour away is the only place where I can VBAC and there isn't a VBAC ban. There is maybe a handful of providers who deliver there. I knew my provider was VBAC-supportive sort of. She had the most experience of a lot of the providers around me so that's why I didn't switch. I had very minimal options for care. I couldn't go to LA or I couldn't go somewhere further away. It would be a four-hour drive either way. We are in an isolated area. I felt like that was a huge win. We are set to go. I remember I told Katrina. Katrina was so happy for me, my doula. I just soldiered on. I started taking Dr. Christopher's Birth Prep at 36 weeks. I was doing my dates and I was really busy in real estate. That's part of my story. I was so busy working super hard and I was getting to the end of my pregnancy. At 38 weeks, I went in and I had clients lined up showings coming up. I was like, “I can't have a baby anytime soon.” I was talking to my provider about it. “Maybe at 40 weeks, we can talk about a membrane sweep or something. I have so much on my plate. I can't have a baby this week.” My husband is a firefighter and his shift that he was going to be taking off was starting maybe the following week. I'm like, “He's not even going to be home. He's going to be gone most of this week. This is a horrible week to have a baby.” I let her check my cervix because I'm like, “I want to see if my birth prep or my dates are doing anything.” At the same time, I still had this fear of, What if I do all of this work and I don't even dilate? That was kind of what happened with my sister so I had that fear in the back of my mind. She checks me and she was like, “You are 2 centimeters dilated, 50% effaced. You're going to make it to your due date no problem. We're not even going to talk about an induction until 41 weeks.” She was like, “I'm just not worried about it. He doesn't feel that big to me. He doesn't feel small. He doesn't feel too big. He feels like a great size.” I said, “I know. I feel really confident that he's going to be 8 pounds, 2 ounces.” I spoke that out. I said, “That's my gut feeling. I just have so much confidence and peace about this birth. I just know it's going to work out.” I go on my merry little way from that appointment. I'm walking around. We had gone down to the beach. We were walking around and I'm like, “Man, I'm so crampy. For some reason, that check made me so, so crampy.” This was 38 weeks exactly. We go back home and I have prodromal labor that night. I'm telling Katrina about it. She goes, “You know, I bet the check irritated your uterus.” The next day, I start having some bloody discharge. I'm like, “What is this? What does this mean?” I told Katrina and she said, “It could mean nothing. It could mean labor is coming soon. We'll just have to see.” I hadn't slept the whole night before. She was like, “You need to get a good night's sleep.” I had to show property all day. I met these clients for the first time. I showed four or five houses to them and meanwhile, I'm like, “Gosh, I'm so sore and tired and crampy.” I told them, “I'm very obviously pregnant, but my due date is not until the end of the month.” This was June 10th and my due date was June 23rd. I said, “We have time. If you need to see houses, it shouldn't be a big deal. I don't want my pregnancy to scare you away.”That night, I get home and I'm like, “I'm going to bed. It's 8:00. I'm going to bed. I'm going to take Benadryl and I'm going to get the best night's sleep.” They call me at 9:00 PM and they're like, “Lauren, we saw this house online. It's brand new on the market. We have to see it.” They lived a couple of hours away so I'm like, “I'll go and I'll Facetime you from the house. I'll go tomorrow.” Tomorrow being June 11th. I'm like, “We'll make it happen. I promise I will get you a showing on this house.”I texted Katrina and I'm like, “Oh my gosh. I feel so crampy and so sore. Something might be going on, but I have to work tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.” I wake up the next morning. It's now June 11th and I lose my mucus plug immediately first thing. There was some blood. It was basically bloody show. I told Katrina and she's like, “Okay, just keep me posted. I have a feeling he's going to come this weekend. It was a Friday. I'm like, “Well, he can't because my husband works Saturday, Sunday, Monday. I don't have time to have a baby.” We go to the showing. I'm finally alone without my toddler and my husband. I'm in the car and I'm like, “Man, my lower back hurts. It's just coming and going but nothing to write home about, just a little bit of cramping.” Of course, I never went into labor with my first so I did not know what to expect. I get to the showing and this house had a really steep staircase. I'm Facetiming my clients and I'm going up the stairs. It was probably at noon and I'm thinking to myself, Man, it's really hard to go up these stairs. Why do I feel so funny? I finish up the showing and they're like, “We want the house. This is the house for us.” I get back in the car. I'm getting all of their information. I'm talking to the other agent. I start the offer and I'm like, “I'm just going to drive home and get in my bed because I don't feel good. I'm just going to write this offer from my bed and everything will be fine.” I get home and I tell my husband at 2:30, “I'm just going to sit in our bed and get this offer sent off.” Mind you, I had a work event, a big awards event that night for my whole office and we were going to have to leave at 4:00 PM. My in-laws were going to come get my son and take him to sleep over. It's 2:30. I'm writing this offer and I'm like, “I don't feel good.” My partner calls me. I tell her, “Listen, I don't know if I'm in labor, but I don't feel well. Maybe I have a stomach bug. I'm going to write this offer. I'm going to give you my clients' information and I want you to take over for me a little bit. They know I'm really pregnant, but this could just be a sickness but either way if something happens, I want them to have the best care and be taken care of if we are going to send this offer off.” I send the offer off. It's 3:30 at this point. I close my computer and I'm waiting for them to DocuSign. I text my husband, “There's no way I'm going tonight. I don't feel well. Something is up. I'm not sure what.” He didn't see my text for a little while. He comes in the room at 4:00 and he starts to talk to me. I literally fall to the ground with my first contraction. I'm in active labor.I don't know it yet, but I'm in active labor. I'm just like, “It feels like there's a wave crashing in my body.” That was the best way I could describe it. I'm like, “I feel this building. It's an ebb and flow,” but it reminded me of playing in the waves as a kid because I grew up in Orange County at the beach and just that feeling of the waves hitting you when you are playing in the surf. I'm like, “This is really intense. What is going on?” I'm like, “I'm certain it's a stomach bug.” I told him, “I have gas or something.” I was just like, “I'm going to give myself an enema and this will all go away.” I did that and sitting down on the toilet, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” It made everything so much more intense. I texted Katrina, “Something is going on. I'm not really sure it is.” She's like, “Well, why don't you try timing some contractions for me and let me know?” I crawl into my closet. I can hear my son and my husband getting ready. My son was 2 so of course, 2-year-olds are not always behaving. I can hear them interacting. I crawl into my closet and I'm lying on the floor in the dark. The contractions are 3.5-4 minutes apart lasting a minute. I was like, “I'm still pretty sure this is a stomach thing that is happening every 3-4 minutes.” I call Katrina and I'm like, “I don't know. I think I'm in labor. This is the length of my contractions. It's probably just prodromal.” I had so much prodromal.She was like, “Um, it doesn't really sound like prodromal labor, but I'll let you just figure it out. You let me know when you are ready for support. Make sure you are eating anything. Have you eaten anything today?” “No.” “Have you had any water?” “Not really.” “Okay. Please eat something. Please drink some water and keep me posted.” She goes, “Can you talk through the contractions?” I said, “I can cry.” She's like, “Okay. I'm ready to go as soon as you tell me.” Then the next thing I know, literally, this is probably an hour later so at 4:00 I had my first contraction. Now it's 5:00 and I'm like, “The contractions are 3 minutes apart and lasting a minute.” I said, “Maybe you should come over. I think Sean (my husband) is getting a little nervous.” We were still so naive. We didn't know what labor looked like and what was going on. We were like, “If we're not going to the event, why don't we just keep August (my son) at home? I'll just make him dinner and I'm going to make you dinner.” He starts prepping dinner and I'm like, “I don't think either of us really know what's going on.” Of course, Katrina knew what was going on and probably thought I was a crazy person but I was very much in denial. We texted her to come over and she gets there. I'm lying in my bed and she's like, “Okay, yeah. They're coming 2.5-3 minutes apart. If you're ready to go to the hospital, I'm ready to go with you.” I'm mooing through these contractions, vocalizing everything. I'm like, “It just feels good to vocalize and I just really keep having to use the bathroom. It's probably just my stomach.” She's like, “No.” I can hear her outside my bathroom telling my husband, “I think we should go. She's really vocalizing a lot and that usually means it's pretty substantial, active labor.” Meanwhile, all I can think about is, “I've got to get this offer in for my clients.” I'm waiting on DocuSign, checking my email. Finally, it comes through. This is 6:00, maybe 6:30. I see it come in. I send it off and I'm standing at my kitchen counter with my computer on, mooing, doing this freaking offer. I go to cross my legs as I'm leaning over and I'm like, “I can't cross my legs, Katrina. I feel like my bones are separating.” She's like, “Yeah, baby is probably descending into your pelvis. I think we should get going if you're okay with going.” We have a 45 to an hour drive depending on traffic and the time of day. It's a Friday night so basically where I live, there's not a ton of traffic but we get in the car. She's following us and we get to the hospital. It's probably 7:15-7:30 or something like that. I'm telling my husband as I'm mooing through these contractions, “This really isn't that bad. If this is labor, it's intense and it feels like there's an earthquake in my body, but I would not tell you that I'm in any pain right now.” He's like, “Okay, whatever you say lady.” We ended up having to walk across the whole hospital parking lot to the ER because the regular hospital entrance was closed. As soon as we walked in the hospital, the hormones changed. The adrenaline kicks in. I start feeling pain. I start feeling a little bit panicky and it starts getting harder to cope through these contractions. I'm on the floor of the triage room crying into a trash can and everyone is staring at me. Katrina's like, “They need to stop staring!” She was trying to defend me while my husband is answering all of their dumb questions like, “What's your favorite color? What city is your mom born in?” They're like, “Let's just put you in a wheelchair and get you up there.” I'm like, “I can't sit.” Anytime I tried to sit, the contractions were a minute apart and they were so intense. I get there and I was so protective of this birth and outside interventions, I just was like, “Everything is evil. Cervical checks are evil. The epidural is evil. Everything is going to make me have a C-section.” I was like, “I don't want to know how dilated I am. I don't want anyone in this room to know except the nurse. That's who is allowed to know how dilated I am.” She checks me and the doctor comes in. It was the hospitalist and of all the providers in my area, it was miraculous that I got this hospitalist because he has so much experience. He is so calm, so kind, so supportive. He just said, “Hi, Lauren. I'm Dr. so-and-so and you're in labor. Happy laboring.” No concerns about my TOLAC, nothing. He didn't even bring it up. He didn't ask to check, nothing. Just, “Happy laboring,” and he left the room. I'm like, “Okay. Clearly I'm in active labor.” So then they were getting the tub ready because my room had a tub and as we were waiting for it to warm up, I'm sitting on the ball. I'm having all this bloody show. The nurse asked to check me again before I get in the tub. Unknowingly, I had been 5 centimeters when we arrived. I was 7 now when we got in the tub an hour later. I get in the tub and I wouldn't say it provided me any relief. Honestly, I was so in my head and not necessarily in pain, just so mentally unaware of everything going on, in labor land, but also very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. I told Katrina, “George Washington could have been sitting in the corner watching me labor. I would not have known.” I barely opened my eyes. I had a nurse who was there sitting with us because I had to have a one-on-one nurse for being high-risk and I had to have continuous fetal monitoring. Because I was in the water, she needed to sit there and make sure the monitors didn't move. I couldn't have told you what she looked like, nothing. I didn't speak to her. I was in another world. I think I maybe was in the tub for 30 minutes to an hour. It's probably 9:00 or 10:00. I can't even remember the timeline of it but it wasn't that long of a labor. My water breaks and I start grunting. They're like, “Let's get you out of the tub. Let's get you out of the tub.” I think I was 9 centimeters at this point. We arrived at 7:30. This is probably 10:00 PM or something like that. I'm like, “Okay. I'm just going to lean over the back of this bed and just moo and make noises.” Me being who I am and not super emotional, I'm making jokes about how I sound. I'm like, “You guys, I sound like Dory in Finding Nemo. I'm so embarrassed. Please don't look at my butthole.” I was naked. I'm making all these jokes and coping, I would say pretty well in terms of pain but just very overwhelmed by the intensity of it. They come in and check me and they're like, “Okay, you're complete.” This is at 11:00 PM maybe or 10:30, something like that. But she was like, “You have a little bit of a cervical lip.” It was a provider I hadn't met before at my OB's office but they were like, “We will just let you do your thing. You sound pushy but please don't push because you have a lip. Let's just let him descend.” I could feel his head inside of myself. I could feel his head coming down. I was like, “I want it to be over. I want it to be over.” I'm still in denial of this whole thing this entire time. Are we sure it's not poop? I know there's a baby coming out. Once my water broke, I'm like, “Okay, I guess I'm having a baby.” That was really, truly the first time that I was like, “Okay, this is really happening.”Maybe 30 minutes later, the hospitalist peeks his head in the room and he's like, “Lauren, why don't you try laying on your side?” I tried and it was too painful. I flip over on my back and three pushes later, he comes flopping out. I screamed him out and it was super painful. I was so overwhelmed by how painful it was. I just screamed like a crazy, wild woman. He's on my chest and he's screaming and I'm in all this pain and then she's like, “I've got to give you lidocaine. You tore a little bit. I'm going to stitch you up.” It was just all this pain happening at once, but I was like, “I got my VBAC. That's all that matters. No one touched me and I got my VBAC. I don't care about anything else.” Anyway, it was great. I would not change it for the world because I never had a ton of pain. I never really thought I needed an epidural, but it was a little bit mentally overwhelming. Meagan: Mhmm, sure. Lauren: Anyway, that was my first VBAC. The doctor said, “You pushed so primally. That was the most amazing thing I've ever seen.” The hospitalist was like, “That was incredible to watch. You are a badass.” I was like, “That was such a compliment because I didn't know what I was doing and you're this doctor with all the experience.” Anyway, fast forward to my third pregnancy. This is now the summer of 2023. We decide we're going to have one more baby. I of course had no issues with the VBAC this time because I had a successful TOLAC with my second. I made it to 20 weeks. I had COVID, RSV, and the flu all right around then so they were telling me, “Your baby is measuring totally normal.” I'm like, “Yeah, because I've been sick as a dog for 6 weeks.” I'm like, “Maybe I'm going to get this newborn who is a normal size,” because my son was born at 38 and 2, the second one, and he was 8 pounds, 3 ounces. I had told my doctor 8 pounds, 2 ounces. I was one ounce off. I was like, “Maybe I'll get this little peanut baby and it's going to be so great. I'll finally have a newborn who fits in a diaper for more than two days.” Then I hit 33 weeks and I got huge. I just exploded inside. I go to my OB and I'm like, “I don't feel good. I'm too big. This baby is too big. Something is wrong.” She's like, “No, Lauren. I really just think you make big babies and he just went through a growth spurt. Let's not worry. I'm not going to have you do an ultrasound or anything like that. If he continues to measure 2-3 weeks ahead,” because I was measuring 36 weeks at 33 weeks, “then we can talk about it, but I don't want to worry about it.” I was like, “Okay.” I was having all of this round ligament pain more than I had with my others and prodromal labor was so painful. I remember telling Katrina who I hired again, “I feel like something is wrong with my muscles. I just am so uncomfortable. But I don't want to make any rash decisions based on it. I might get an epidural if this keeps up because this doesn't feel normal. “She was like, “Okay, whatever works.” So I get to my 38-week appointment and I'm thinking, I'm going to have this baby at 38 weeks just like I had my second baby. I had everything ready. Everything was good to go at my house and then day by day, it ticks on. Baby is not coming. Baby is not coming. I was due April 6th. This was just this year, 2024. I get to 38 weeks. I tell my doctor, “Just strip my membranes. I don't even care.” She was like, “Okay, I guess if that's what you want.” She did. Nothing happened. 39 weeks rolls around. She strips my membranes again. Nothing really happens and then the night of Easter, I had this strange experience where I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this contraction that wouldn't end. I couldn't feel the baby move and it freaked me out. I did everything I could to get him to move. I was in the shower. I was eating. I was drinking and doing all of these things. Finally, I called Katrina at 2:00 in the morning. I'm like, “My baby's dead. I'm 100% sure he's gone. What do I do?” She's like, “Lauren, just relax. Lie on your side and drink something sweet.” We were ready to go to the hospital. I remember we had a stethoscope. I got the stethoscope and I put it right where I knew his heartbeat was and I heard a heartbeat. I burst into tears. It was the first time I've ever cried with any of my babies even being put on my chest. I just felt this relief because I had so much anxiety about him with my size being so big and the pain I was having. I was like, “I just want this baby out.” I never really felt that way, but it was this desperate anxiety. A couple of days passed and I'm now in week 39. I'm like, “My uterus is silent like a little church mouse. She's not doing a thing. She's not cramping. She's not contracting. No discharge, nothing.” I'm like, “This baby is never going to come.” I tell my doctor at my 39-week appointment, “If this baby hasn't come by Friday, I'm back here and I want another membrane sweep.” I felt kind of crazy because I'm like, “This is technically an induction, like a natural and I'm intervening.” Me who never wanted anyone to touch me and now I'm like, “Please touch me and pull this baby out of my body.” She goes to check me and she's like, “Lauren, I think he's coming tonight. Your body contracted around my hand when I tried to sweep you. I just wouldn't be surprised. Don't worry.” I'm like, “Okay, well you're breaking my water on Monday.” I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and I'm like, “We're waiting until Monday but I want you to break my water because I'm over it.” She's like, “That's a good idea. Let's threaten this baby and he'll come right out.” This was early in the morning on Friday, the 5th. Anyway, I had all of this anxiety and I just felt like he needed to come out. I couldn't get any peace until I knew he was alive and happy and healthy and on my chest. Friday afternoon, I felt crampy just a little bit the whole day and then at 4:30 PM, I feel this gush and I'm like, “Okay. Is that my water or is it my pee?” because his head felt like it was on my bladder. I didn't say anything to anyone. Then 6:00 rolls around. I text Katrina. I'm like, “Listen, I felt a little gush and I keep feeling it. I put a pad on and it doesn't seem to be urine. I'm not really sure what's happening. I'm just going to do some Miles Circuit and I'll update you.”At 7:30, I'm cleaning my kitchen and all of a sudden, I'm hit with an active labor contraction. I'm like, “Not again. I want labor to start normally so I know what's happening.” No. Baby's like, “I'm ready.” At 7:30, I tell her, “Okay, I'm feeling contractions. I'm getting in the shower to see if it will stop. It might be prodromal. Let's give it an hour. I'm going to text you, but they are 2.5 minutes apart.” She's like, “I'm at dinner. I'm getting boxes. Just let me know.” I was like, “Okay. It might stop though so I wouldn't worry about it.” No, it did not stop. She gets to my house at 9:00 and my car is already running. I'm like, “We're going.” I am mooing through these contractions. I'm going to pop this baby out right now. I had thankfully put some chux pads in the back of my car. I'm on all fours in the back of my car. Mind you, we have to drive an hour to the hospital. I peed all over the chux pad. I just was like, “He's on my bladder. He's on my bladder.” It was so painful and I couldn't control anything. I'm like, “Is this water? Is this pee? I don't even know what's happening.” We get to the hospital. He did not come in the car, thank God, but we did have to go to the ER again and the ER was taking forever. It took a half hour to get me up to labor and delivery as I'm actively mooing in front of the hospital. I was like, “I'm not going in,” because there was a little girl sitting in the waiting room and some convict sitting with a police officer. I'm like, “I'm not having my labor in front of these people!” Even the police officer came out and he was like, “I don't understand what is taking so long. You are clearly about to have this baby. I will bust open these doors for you and walk you up to L&D myself if that's what it takes.” Finally, they got me up there. I arrived. I told Katrina and my husband, “You guys, I'm getting an epidural.” I said, “I have had so much anxiety and so much pain. This does not feel like my previous labor. This feels like I'm suffering.” I said, “I just want to smile. I just want to smile. I want to smile this baby out.” We get up there. I'm 8 centimters dilated. This was the part of the story that I feel like it comes back to advocating for myself. I go in there and I'm like, “I don't care what you need from me. I just need the epidural and stat.” The nurses are scrambling and this doctor walks in. I am on all fours on the bed just staring at the ground, actively transitioning. I see this doctor walk in. I see his feet and he had his shoelaces untied. Immediately, I'm just like, “No. It's a no.” I don't know why. I just was like, “Your shoes are dirty and they are untied. You seem like a hot mess. I'm already a hot mess. I want someone to come in and just be like clean-cut and normal.” He starts asking me all these questions. He's asking me my whole health history, everything about my grandparents, my parents, all of this stuff. I'm in transition then he goes, “You're aware of the risk of TOLAC, right?” I said, “Yes.” He goes, “That your uterus could burst wide open?” I literally saw red. I'm in a contraction and I just screamed like a wild lady. I was like, “Get out.” I wanted to add on some expletives and tell him to get out of the room. I just said, “Get food.” He was like, “I'm  just saying.” He ended up leaving and my nurse peeks her head under. I look over and I see this nurse peeking her head right into my face and it's the same nurse who was there with my first VBAC. She goes, “You don't have to accept care from him.” She goes, “Your doctor is actually the backup on-call doctor tonight.” She goes, “If you refuse care, we can call her and she can come in.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a miracle.” We get the epidural. I'm like, “We've got to slow this thing down. I don't want to have this baby and have this crazy man who I cannot stand anywhere near my body parts, anywhere in this room.” We get the epidural and everything slowed down. I labored down. My doctor ended up coming in and she checked me. She was like, “Your bag is bulging. It feels like rubber. It's so thick.” She was like, “I think that's why he's not coming out.” We got to the hospital at 9:30-9:45. By the time we got in the room, 11:00 by the time I got the epidural, and the anesthesiologist was like, “You're going to have this baby in 30 minutes. I'm certain of it.” To slow it down, I'm closing my legs and doing all of these things to slow it down.My doctor comes in. She breaks my water and fluid goes everywhere. It floods the floor. She goes, “I don't remember any time I've ever seen this much water come out of someone without polyhydramnios. Maybe you had it. I don't know but this is an insane amount of water.” She breaks my water and then my epidural was a pretty low dose because he thought I was having the baby in 30 minutes. It's now 2:30 in the morning and I haven't had the baby yet. I'm getting up on my knees. I'm leaning over the back of the bed and I feel him descending. Then my doctor comes in an hour later and she's like, “Let's get this baby out.” It was 3:30 in the morning and she's like, “Let's go.” She feels me. She's like, “You're complete. I feel his head right here. You just need to push and you can't feel that his head is right here.” So I just get on my back, in lithotomy with the freaking stirrups like I said I would never do with the epidural I said I would never get and I pushed him out in three pushes. He was 9 pounds, 7 ounces. I am so glad I got that epidural. No regrets there because that's a really freaking huge baby. His head was in the 100th percentile or something like gigantic. I tore a little bit again, but I feel like the tradeoff was this peaceful, happy birth. I was making jokes. I had this nurse that I loved and knew. I had my doctor I loved and knew. I had Katrina and I had my husband who were the only people in the room and we laughed our way into this birth. I laughed my baby out basically. I was making jokes the whole time and I just had this peaceful experience. I told my husband, “I know I railed on the epidural my whole pregnancy and I said I would never get it,” but it's a tool ultimately. It's a tool. If you use it wisely, I was very far along. I said, “I don't think it's going to stop my labor.” I felt really confident in my decision. I didn't feel like anything was pushed on me. I made the decision. I'm happy I did it that way. Would I do it again that way? I don't know. I think with every birth, you should be open-minded to the possibilities and your needs. I hear so many stories where women are like, “And then I got the epidural. I had to.” I'm like, “It's okay. Own that decision. You're no worse off for getting it and it doesn't make you any less of a mom or any less of a good person for getting it. It's okay to not feel every single pain of labor if it's overclouding your ability to be in the moment.” Meagan: Yeah.Lauren: So anyway, that was my second VBAC story. Honestly, it was so redemptive because there was no trauma from the pain of having this wild, chaotic, primal birth. It was just peaceful and happy with all of the people. If I could have dreamt up a list of people who could have been with me, that's who it would have been. Meagan: Good. Oh, I love that you pointed that out. Well, I am so happy for you. Congrats again, 11 days ago and right now I want to thank you again so much for sharing your story. Lauren: Thank you for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Branding and business are really a two-pronged approach,” says Lauren about these two aspects of entrepreneurship that many people mistakenly believe are one in the same. Together with Priscilla, she explains how the two aspects are different, yet equally important. They work in tandem and one means nothing without the other. An entrepreneur must build a solid brand foundation which includes identifying your target audience, getting inside your customers' head, learning their pain points and figuring out how to provide solutions, and being clear about what your business has to offer.    They refer to Starbucks as an example of brand ethos, brand association and customer engagement. They explain how every single detail of the Starbucks experience is branded and how it differentiates from those of McDonald's or Target. Speaking from her role as Forward Female's creative director, Lauren gives her best advice on building a brand ethos and suggests questions that entrepreneurs should be asking themselves as they figure out the fundamentals of their business.    Ultimately, infusing your personality into your brand will help differentiate you from others. Join today's conversation and find out Lauren and Priscilla's go-to summer Starbucks orders and why they actually look forward to Mondays.  Quotes “What is building a brand? What is building a business? I think there are a lot of misconceptions of what those two things actually mean. I think that a lot of the time people think they are the exact same thing and don't really take the time to separate them and identify what goes into each one.” (3:07 | Priscilla and Lauren) “It's a vibe. A brand is a vibe.” (7:13 | Priscilla)  “The key to successful branding is getting so clear and specific on it from the get go that you feel solid with it that even if you do evolve and grow and it shifts that it's still consistent throughout every touchpoint of your business. From a business card that you hand out to your Instagram to your website, from fonts, colors, just overall aesthetic, people should be getting that same vibe, same imagery. Content is huge. (20:18 |  Lauren) “It goes back to the idea of showing up as the person that you want to be. If you want to be really healthy, then every day make decisions as a healthy person. ‘Today, I choose to be a healthy person, so I'm going to eat the salad instead of the burger. And day by day, that's going help you really become a healthy person. So within your brand, you want to show up as the brands that are really successful.” (21:27 | Priscilla)   Links Instagram: @forwardfemale @hernextbigmove Forward Female Website Join the Community https://calendly.com/the-forward-female/discovery-call Email Us: hello@forwardfemale.com   Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“That's such a number that's out there in the world right now,” says Priscilla about the six-figure mark that so many new entrepreneurs shoot for while growing their businesses. It's important for founders to get specific about what they want–including about which actual six-figure number you want to reach. Taking the time to figure out what success really looks like to you–your ‘why'--is crucial to success, she and Lauren explain. They also discuss the importance of maintaining authenticity, staying on top of operating costs and other finances, and of continuing through difficult times and dealing with self-doubt.    They discuss what it was like to hit the six-figure mark with their own business Forward Female–for which they opened a physical space just before the pandemic—and what they learned along the way. That period prompted a move into the digital space and provided some surprising benefits. As they continued to hone their business model they had to decide how much time and effort to give to their members while they were still wearing all the hats. They learned to lean into the community they'd built and to gather crucial feedback from them.    Ultimately, they had to make a difficult but necessary decision in order to move forward. Tune in to learn what this decision was as well as their thoughts on the best way to manifest money and other abundance as well as what they call their Fiji analogy.  Quotes “Money and management, overall of your business, is a huge thing that you have to be aware of, you have to be conscious of the whole time, from the very beginning, when it's just an idea before it's even an LLC or an actual business, all the way to growing into six figures and above.” (12:10-12:25 | Lauren) “Every entrepreneur will go through that growing pains stage where you do have to do some trial and error and see what's going to work and what's going to actually bring you money. A lot of the time-–and we see this a lot with like the very beginning entrepreneurs—they have all these ideas, and sometimes you think an idea is going to be great and it totally flops.” (14:52-15:16 | Lauren )  “It's really powerful to be able to unpack your ‘why.'  Ask your why ‘why?' If you're doing something because you want to make a lot of money, okay. Why, though? Really? What is underneath that? What is the root of that?” (26:04-26:20 | Lauren )    Links   Instagram: @forwardfemale @hernextbigmove Website: www.forwardfemale.com Join Community: https://theforwardfemale.mn.co/ Schedule Consultation: https://calendly.com/the-forward-female/discovery-call Email Us: hello@forwardfemale.com Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

“It's not just drinking water. It's making sure that your mitochondria can generate that structured water, that exclusion zone water, that is really what is hydrating you,” explains Dr. Lauren Dodds, quantum chiropractor and founder of South Alabama Quantum Health where she combines her work in upper cervical chiropractic care, craniosacral therapy, and the Arvigo techniques of Maya Abdominal Therapy with her deep understanding of quantum health. In this episode, Dr. Lauren discusses cellular hydration and why it is so important both to the structural integrity of the body as well as to one's mental and emotional states.  Cellular hydration refers to your mitochondria being able to generate enough structured or exclusion zone water for all of the body's processes. In this case, cellular dehydration occurs anytime there is a dysfunction within the fascia or in the quality or quantity of available structured water. When your body doesn't have enough structured water, the flow of electrons in your body will be disrupted. This can lead to an array of symptoms from brain fog and fatigue to gastrointestinal problems and muscle pain. In order to keep your mitochondria hydrated, it is critical to fix any dysfunction in your circadian rhythm by getting enough sunlight, observing the sunrise and sunset, and avoiding artificial light at night. You can also help your body out by improving the quality of your drinking water through filtering out toxins like fluoride and adding minerals like electrolytes. Drinking water is not enough to ensure healthy levels of cellular hydration. Your mitochondria need the infrared light from the sun and free electrons from the Earth in order to generate enough structured water to maintain good flow throughout the body. If you have been suffering from the effects of cellular dehydration, consider working to improve your circadian rhythm and being mindful about the quality of your drinking water.   Quotes “Fascia and water go together. If one is dysfunctional, then the structure is not going to work.” (10:42-10:48 | Dr. Lauren)  “The water that we drink is called bulk water…doesn't have the same structure that the water that our mitochondria makes.” (11:36-11:58 | Dr. Lauren)  “It's not just drinking water. It's making sure that your mitochondria can generate that structured water, that exclusion zone water, that is really what is hydrating you.” (12:46-12:57 | Dr. Lauren) “Making sure that you're getting good sunlight during the day, and then making sure that you're blocking the artificial light at night, I think are two of the biggest things that you can do for your mitochondrial health.” (17:28-17:40 | Dr. Lauren) “A lot of things come back to dehydration and not enough of that structured water. And then when you start to repair that mitochondrial function, to create that good water, it seems like a lot of things start to take care of itself.” (47:09-47:25 | Dr. Lauren) Links Connect with Dr. Lauren Dodds: Website: https://soalquantumhealth.com/ Instagram @drlaurendodds Clinic: Spark Wellness www.sparkmywellness.com @sparkmywellness   To find a practitioner who understand the health principles of quantum biology: www.quantumbiologycollective.org  To become a QBC member and get invites to live deep dives & access to our video library: www.quantumhealthtv.com  To take our 8 week practitioner certification in the science of quantum biology so that you can add it to your existing area of expertise: www.appliedquantumbiology.com    Follow on Twitter, Instagram & Facebook: @quantumhealthtv    Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Lauren Maffeo is the author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Victoria talks to Lauren about human-centered design work, data stewardship and governance, and writing a book anybody can use regardless of industry or team size. Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up (https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Data-Governance-Ground-Data-Driven/dp/1680509802) Follow Lauren Maffeo on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmaffeo/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/LaurenMaffeo). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: Hey there. It's your host Victoria. And I'm here today with Dawn Delatte and Jordyn Bonds from our Ignite team. We are thrilled to announce the summer 2023 session of our new incubator program. If you have a business idea that involves a web or mobile app, we encourage you to apply for our 8-week program. We'll help you validate the market opportunity, experiment with messaging and product ideas, and move forward with confidence towards an MVP. Learn more and apply at tbot.io/incubator. Dawn and Jordyn, thank you for joining and sharing the news with me today. JORDYN: Thanks for having us. DAWN: Yeah, glad to be here. VICTORIA: So, tell me a little bit more about the incubator program. This will be your second session, right? JORDYN: Indeed. We are just now wrapping up the first session. We had a really great 8 weeks, and we're excited to do it again. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And I think we're going to have the person from your program on a Giant Robots episode soon. JORDYN: Wonderful. VICTORIA: Maybe you can give us a little preview. What were some of your main takeaways from this first round? JORDYN: You know, as ever with early-stage work, it's about identifying your best early adopter market and user persona, and then learning as much as you possibly can about them to inform a roadmap to a product. VICTORIA: What made you decide to start this incubator program this year with thoughtbot? DAWN: We had been doing work with early-stage products and founders, as well as some innovation leads or research and development leads in existing organizations. We had been applying a lot of these processes, like the customer discovery process, Product Design Sprint process to validate new product ideas. And we've been doing that for a really long time. And we've also been noodling on this idea of exploring how we might offer value even sooner to clients that are maybe pre-software product idea. Like many of the initiatives at thoughtbot, it was a little bit experimental for us. We decided to sort of dig into better understanding that market, and seeing how the expertise that we had could be applied in the earlier stage. It's also been a great opportunity for our team to learn and grow. We had Jordyn join our team as Director of Product Strategy. Their experience with having worked at startups and being an early-stage startup founder has been so wonderful for our team to engage with and learn from. And we've been able to offer that value to clients as well. VICTORIA: I love that. So it's for people who have identified a problem, and they think they can come up with a software solution. But they're not quite at the point of being ready to actually build something yet. Is that right? DAWN: Yeah. We've always championed the idea of doing your due diligence around validating the right thing to build. And so that's been a part of the process at thoughtbot for a really long time. But it's always been sort of in the context of building your MVP. So this is going slightly earlier with that idea and saying, what's the next right step for this business? It's really about understanding if there is a market and product opportunity, and then moving into exploring what that opportunity looks like. And then validating that and doing that through user research, and talking to customers, and applying early product and business strategy thinking to the process. VICTORIA: Great. So that probably sets you up for really building the right thing, keeping your overall investment costs lower because you're not wasting time building the wrong thing. And setting you up for that due diligence when you go to investors to say, here's how well I vetted out my idea. Here's the rigor that I applied to building the MVP. JORDYN: Exactly. It's not just about convincing external stakeholders, so that's a key part. You know, maybe it's investors, maybe it's new team members you're looking to hire after the program. It could be anyone. But it's also about convincing yourself. Really, walking down the path of pursuing a startup is not a small undertaking. And we just want to make sure folks are starting with their best foot forward. You know, like Dawn said, let's build the right thing. Let's figure out what that thing is, and then we can think about how to build it right. That's a little quote from a book I really enjoy, by the way. I cannot take credit for that. [laughs] There's this really great book about early-stage validation called The Right It by Alberto Savoia. He was an engineer at Google, started a couple of startups himself, failed in some ways, failed to validate a market opportunity before marching off into building something. And the pain of that caused him to write this book about how to quickly and cheaply validate some market opportunity, market assumptions you might have when you're first starting out. The way he frames that is let's figure out if it's the right it before we build it right. And I just love that book, and I love that framing. You know, if you don't have a market for what you're building, or if they don't understand that they have the pain point you're solving for, it doesn't matter what you build. You got to do that first. And that's really what the focus of this incubator program is. It's that phase of work. Is there a there there? Is there something worth the hard, arduous path of building some software? Is there something there worth walking that path for before you start walking it? VICTORIA: Right. I love that. Well, thank you both so much for coming on and sharing a little bit more about the program. I'm super excited to see what comes out of the first round, and then who gets selected for the second round. So I'm happy to help promote. Any other final takeaways for our listeners today? DAWN: If this sounds intriguing to you, maybe you're at the stage where you're thinking about this process, I definitely encourage people to follow along. We're trying to share as much as we can about this process and this journey for us and our founders. So you can follow along on our blog, on LinkedIn. We're doing a LinkedIn live weekly with the founder in the program. We'll continue to do that with the next founders. And we're really trying to build a community and extend the community, you know, that thoughtbot has built with early-stage founders, so please join us. We'd love to have you. VICTORIA: Wonderful. That's amazing. Thank you both so much. INTRO MUSIC: VICTORIA: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Maffeo, Author of Designing Data Governance from the Ground Up. Lauren, thank you for joining us. LAUREN: Thanks so much for having me, Victoria. I'm excited to be here. VICTORIA: Wonderful. I'm excited to dive right into this topic. But first, maybe just tell me what led you to start writing this book? LAUREN: I was first inspired to write this book by my clients, actually. I was working as a service designer at Steampunk, which is a human-centered design firm serving the federal government. I still do work for Steampunk. And a few years ago, I was working with a client who had a very large database containing millions of unique data points going back several centuries. And I realized throughout the course of my discovery process, which is a big part of human-centered design work, that most of their processes for managing the data in this database were purely manual. There was no DevSecOps integrated into their workflows. These workflows often included several people and took up to a week to complete. And this was an organization that had many data points, as mentioned, in its purview. They also had a large team to manage the data in various ways. But they still really struggled with an overall lack of processes. And really, more importantly, they lacked quality standards for data, which they could then automate throughout their production processes. I realized that even when organizations exist to have data in their purview and to share it with their users, that doesn't necessarily mean that they actually have governance principles that they abide by. And so that led me to really consider, more broadly, the bigger challenges that we see with technology like AI, machine learning, large language models. We know now that there is a big risk of bias within these technologies themselves due to the data. And when I dug deeper, first as a research analyst at Gartner and then as a service designer at Steampunk, I realized that the big challenge that makes this a reality is lack of governance. It's not having the quality standards for deciding how data is fit for use. It's not categorizing your data according to the top domains in your organization that produce data. It's lack of clear ownership regarding who owns which data sets and who is able to make decisions about data. It's not having things like a data destruction policy, which shows people how long you hold on to data for. So that knowledge and seeing firsthand how many organizations struggle with that lack of governance that's what inspired me to write the book itself. And I wanted to write it from the lens of a service designer. I have my own bias towards that, given that I am a practicing service designer. But I do believe that data governance when approached through a design thinking lens, can yield stronger results than if it is that top-down IT approach that many organizations use today unsuccessfully. VICTORIA: So let me play that back a little bit. So, in your experience, organizations that struggle to make the most out of their data have an issue with defining the authority and who has that authority to make decisions, and you refer to that as governance. So that when it comes down to it, if you're building things and you want to say, is this ethical? Is this right? Is this secure? Is it private enough? Someone needs to be responsible [laughs] for answering that. And I love that you're bringing this human-centered design approach into it. LAUREN: Yeah, that's exactly right. And I would say that ownership is a big part of data governance. It is one of the most crucial parts. I have a chapter in my book on data stewards, what they are, the roles they play, and how to select them and get them on board with your data governance vision. The main thing I want to emphasize about data stewardship is that it is not just the technical members of your team. Data scientists, data architects, and engineers can all be exceptional data stewards, especially because they work with the data day in and day out. The challenge I see is that these people typically are not very close to the data, and so they don't have that context for what different data points mean. They might not know offhand what the definitions per data piece are. They might not know the format that the data originates in. That's information that people in non-technical roles tend to possess. And so, data stewardship and governance is not about turning your sales director into a data engineer or having them build ETL pipelines. But it is about having the people who know that data best be in positions where they're able to make decisions about it, to define it, to decide which pieces of metadata are attached to each piece of data. And then those standards are what get automated throughout the DevSecOps process to make better life cycles that produce better-quality data faster, at speed with fewer resources. VICTORIA: So, when we talk about authority, what we really mean is, like, who has enough context to make smart decisions? LAUREN: Who has enough context and also enough expertise? I think a big mistake that we as an industry have made with data management is that we have given the responsibility for all data in an organization to one team, sometimes one person. So, typically, what we've done in the past is we've seen all data in an organization managed by IT. They, as a department, make top-down decisions about who has access to which data, what data definitions exist, where the data catalog lives, if it exists in an organization at all. And that creates a lot of blockers for people if you always have to go through one team or person to get permission to use data. And then, on top of that, the IT team doesn't have the context that your subject matter experts do about the data in their respective divisions. And so it really is about expanding the idea of who owns data and who is in a position of authority to make decisions about it by collaborating across silos. This is very challenging work to do. But I would actually say that for smaller organizations, they might lack the resources in, time, and money, and people to do data governance at scale. But what they can do is start embedding data governance as a core principle into the fabric of their organizations. And ultimately, I think that will power them for success in a way that larger organizations were not able to because there is a lot of technical debt out there when it comes to bad data. And one way to avoid that in the future or to at least mitigate it is to establish data governance standards early on. VICTORIA: Talk me through what your approach would be if you were working with an organization who wants to build-in this into the fabric of how they work. What would be your first steps in engaging with them and identifying where they have needs in part of that discovery process? LAUREN: In human-centered design, the discovery process occurs very early in a project. This is where you are working hand in hand with your client to figure out what their core needs are and how you can help them solve those core needs. And this is important to do because it's not always obvious what those needs are. You might get a contract to work on something very specific, whether it's designing the user interface of a database or it's migrating a website. Those are technical challenges to solve. And those are typically the reason why you get contracted to work with your client. But you still have to do quite a bit of work to figure out what the real ask is there and what is causing the need for them to have hired you in the first place. And so, the first thing I would do if I was walking a client through this is I would start by asking who the most technical senior lead in the organization is. And I would ask how they are managing data today. I think it's really important, to be honest about the state of data in your organization today. The work that we do designing data governance is very forward-thinking in a lot of ways, but you need a foundation to build upon. And I think people need to be honest about the state of that foundation in their organization. So the first thing I would do is find that most-senior data leader who is responsible for making decisions about data and owns the data strategy because that person is tasked with figuring out how to use data in a way that is going to benefit the business writ large. And so, data governance is a big part of what they are tasked to do. And so, in the first instance, what I would do is I would host a workshop with the client where I would ask them to do a few things. They would start by answering two questions: What is my company's mission statement, and how do we use data to fulfill that mission statement? These are very baseline questions. And the first one is so obvious and simple that it might be a little bit off-putting because you're tempted to think, as a senior leader, I already know what my company does. Why do I need to answer it like this? And you need to answer it like this because just like we often get contracts to work on particular technical problems, you'd be surprised by how many senior leaders cannot articulate their company's mission statements. They'll talk to you about their jobs, the tools they use to do their jobs, who they work with on a daily basis. But they still aren't ultimately answering the question of how their job, how the technology they use fulfills a bigger organizational need. And so, without understanding what that organizational need is, you won't be able to articulate how data fulfills that mission. And if you're not able to explain how data fulfills your company's mission, I doubt you can explain which servers your data lives on, which file format it needs to be converted to, who owns which data sets, where they originate, what your DevSecOps processes are. So answering those two questions about the company mission and how data is used to fulfill that mission is the first step. The second thing I would do is ask this senior leader, let's say the chief data officer, to define the data domains within their organization. And when we talk about data domains, we are talking about the areas of the business that are the key areas of interest. This can also be the problem spaces that your organization addresses. It also can have a hand in how your organization is designed as is; in other words, who reports to whom? Do you have sales and marketing within one part of the organization, or are they separate? Do you have customer success as its own wing of the organization separate from product? However your organization is architected, you can draw lines between those different teams, departments, and the domains that your organization works in. And then, most importantly, you want to be looking at who leads each domain and has oversight over the data in that domain. This is a really important aspect of the work because, as mentioned, stewards play a really key role in upholding and executing data governance. You need data stewards across non-technical and technical roles. So defining not just what the data domains are but who leads each domain in a senior role is really important to mapping out who your data stewards will be and to architect your first data governance council. And then, finally, the last thing I would have them do in the first instance is map out a business capability map showing not only what their data domains are but then the sub-domains underneath. So, for example, you have sales, and that can be a business capability. But then, within the sales data domain, you're going to have very different types of sales data. You're going to have quarterly sales, bi-annual sales, inbound leads versus outbound leads. You're going to have very different types of data within that sales data domain. And you want to build those out as much as you possibly can across all of your data domains. If you are a small organization, it's common to have about four to six data domains with subdomains underneath, each of those four to six. But it varies according to each startup and organization and how they are structured. Regardless of how your organization is structured, there's always value in doing those three things. So you start by identifying what your organization does and how data fulfills that goal. You define the core data domains in your organization, including who owns each domain. And then, you take that information about data domains, and you create a capability map showing not just your core data domains but the subdomains underneath because you're going to use all of that information to architect a future data governance program based on what you currently have today. VICTORIA: I think that's a great approach, and it makes a lot of sense. Is that kind of, like, the minimum that people should be doing for a data governance program? Like, what's the essentials to do, like, maybe even your due diligence, say, as a health tech startup company? LAUREN: This is the bare minimum of what I think every organization should do. The specifics of that are different depending on industry, depending on company size, organizational structure. But I wrote this book to be a compass that any organization can use. There's a lot of nuance, especially when we get into the production environment an organization has. There's a lot of nuance there depending on tools, all of that. And so I wanted to write a book that anybody could use regardless of industry size, team size, all of that information. I would say that those are the essential first steps. And I do think that is part of the discovery process is figuring out where you stand today, and no matter how ugly it might be. Because, like we've mentioned, there is more data produced on a daily basis than ever before. And you are not going into this data governance work with a clean slate. You already have work in your organization that you do to manage data. And you really need to know where there are gaps so that you can address those gaps. And so, when we go into the production environment and thinking about what you need to do to be managing data for quality on a regular basis, there are a couple of key things. The first is that you need a plan for how you're going to govern data throughout each lifecycle. So you are very likely not using a piece of data once and never again. You are likely using it through several projects. So you always want to have a plan for governance in production that includes policies on data usage, data archiving, and data destruction. Because you want to make sure that you are fulfilling those principles, whatever they are, throughout each lifecycle because you are managing data as a product. And that brings me to the next thing that I would encourage people working in data governance to consider, which is taking the data mesh principle of managing data as a product. And this is a fundamental mind shift from how big data has been managed in the past, where it was more of a service. There are many detriments to that, given the volume of data that exists today and given how much data environments have changed. So, when we think about data mesh, we're really thinking about four key principles. The first is that you want to manage your data according to specific domains. So you want to be creating a cloud environment that really accounts for the nuance of each data domain. That's why it's so important to define what those data domains are. You're going to not just document what those domains are. You're going to be managing and owning data in a domain-specific way. The second thing is managing data as a product. And so, rather than taking the data as a service approach, you have data stewards who manage their respective data as products within the cloud environment. And so then, for instance, rather than using data about customer interactions in a single business context, you can instead use that data in a range of ways across the organization, and other colleagues can use that data as well. You also want to have data available as a self-service infrastructure. This is really important in data mesh. Because it emphasizes keeping all data on a centralized platform that manages your storage, streaming, pipelines, and anything else, and this is crucial because it prevents data from leaving in disparate systems on various servers. And it also erases or eases the need to build integrations between those different systems and databases. And it also gives each data steward a way to manage their domain data from the same source. And then the last principle for data mesh is ecosystem governance. And really, what we're talking about here is reinforcing the data framework and mission statement that you are using to guide all of your work. It's very common in tech for tech startups to operate according to a bigger vision and according to principles that really establish the rationale for why that startup deserves to exist in the world. And likewise, you want to be doing all of your production work with data according to a bigger framework and mission that you've already shared. And you want to make sure that all of your data is formatted, standardized, and discoverable against equal standards that govern the quality of your data. VICTORIA: That sounds like data is your biggest value as a company and your greatest source of liability [laughs] and in many ways. And, I'm curious, you mentioned just data as a product, if you can talk more about how that fits into how company owners and founders should be thinking about data and the company they're building. LAUREN: So that's a very astute comment about data as a liability. That is absolutely true. And that is one of the reasons why governance is not just nice to have. It's really essential, especially in this day and age. The U.S. has been quite lax when it comes to data privacy and protection standards for U.S. citizens. But I do think that that will change over the next several years. I think U.S. citizens will get more data protections. And that means that organizations are going to have to be more astute about tracking their data and making sure that they are using it in appropriate ways. So, when we're talking to founders who want to consider how to govern data as a product, you're thinking about data stewards taking on the role of product managers and using data in ways that benefits not just them and their respective domains but also giving it context and making it available to the wider business in a way that it was not available before. So if you are architecting your data mesh environment in the cloud, what you might be able to do is create various domains that exist on their own little microservice environments. And so you have all of these different domains that exist in one environment, but then they all connect to this bigger data mesh catalog. And from the catalog, that is where your colleagues across the business can access the data in your domain. Now, you don't want to necessarily give free rein for anybody in your organization to get any data at any time. You might want to establish guardrails for who is able to access which data and what those parameters are. And the data as a product mindset allows you to do that because it gives you, as the data steward/pseudo pm, the autonomy to define how and when your data is used, rather than giving that responsibility to a third-party colleague who does not have that context about the data in your domain. VICTORIA: I like that about really giving the people who have the right context the ability to manage their product and their data within their product. That makes a lot of sense to me. Mid-Roll Ad: As life moves online, bricks-and-mortar businesses are having to adapt to survive. With over 18 years of experience building reliable web products and services, thoughtbot is the technology partner you can trust. We provide the technical expertise to enable your business to adapt and thrive in a changing environment. We start by understanding what's important to your customers to help you transition to intuitive digital services your customers will trust. We take the time to understand what makes your business great and work fast yet thoroughly to build, test, and validate ideas, helping you discover new customers. Take your business online with design-driven digital acceleration. Find out more at tbot.io/acceleration or click the link in the show notes for this episode. VICTORIA: What is it like to really bring in this culture of design-thinking into an organization that's built a product around data? LAUREN: It can be incredibly hard. I have found that folks really vary in their approach to this type of work. I think many people that I talk to have tried doing data governance to some degree in the past, and, for various reasons, it was not successful. So as a result, they're very hesitant to try again. I think also for many technical leaders, if they're in CIO, CDO, CTO roles, they are not used to design thinking or to doing human-centered design work. That's not the ethos that was part of the tech space for a very long time. It was all about the technology, building what you could, experimenting and tinkering, and then figuring out the user part later. And so this is a real fundamental mindset shift to insist on having a vision for how data benefits your business before you start investing money and people into building different data pipelines and resources. It's also a fundamental shift for everyone in an organization because we, in society writ large, are taught to believe that data is the responsibility of one person or one team. And we just can't afford to think like that anymore. There is too much data produced and ingested on a daily basis for it to fall to one person or one team. And even if you do have a technical team who is most adept at managing the cloud environment, the data architecture, building the new models for things like fraud detection, that's all the purview of maybe one team that is more technical. But that does not mean that the rest of the organization doesn't have a part to play in defining the standards for data that govern everything about the technical environment. And I think a big comparison we can make is to security. Many of us… most of us, even if we work in tech, are not cybersecurity experts. But we also know that employees are the number one cause of breaches at organizations. There's no malintent behind that, but people are most likely to expose company data and cause a breach from within the company itself. And so organizations know that they are responsible for creating not just secure technical environments but educating their employees and their workforce on how to be stewards of security. And so, even at my company, we run constant tests to see who is going to be vulnerable to phishing? Who is going to click on malicious links? They run quarterly tests to assess how healthy we are from a cybersecurity perspective. And if you click on a phishing attempt and you fall for it, you are directed to a self-service education video that you have to complete, going over the aspects of this phishing test, what made it malicious. And then you're taught to educate yourself on what to look for in the future. We really need to be doing something very similar with data. And it doesn't mean that you host a two-hour training and then never talk about data again. You really need to look at ways to weave data governance into the fabric of your organization so that it is not disruptive to anybody's day. It's a natural part of their day, and it is part of working at your organization. Part of your organizational goals include having people serve as data stewards. And you emphasize that stewardship is for everyone, not just the people in the technology side of the business. VICTORIA: I love that. And I think there's something to be said for having more people involved in the data process and how that will impact just the quality of your data and the inclusivity of what you're building to bring those perspectives together. LAUREN: I agree. And that's the real goal. And I think this is, again, something that's actually easier for startups to do because startups are naturally more nimble. They find out what works, what doesn't work. They're willing to try things. They have to be willing to try things. Because, to use a really clichéd phrase, if they're not innovating, then they're going to get stale and go out of business. But the other benefit that I think startups have when they're doing this work is the small size. Yes, you don't have the budget or team size of a company like JP Morgan, that is enormous, or a big bank. But you still have an opportunity to really design a culture, an organizational culture that puts data first, regardless of role. And then you can architect the structure of every role according to that vision. And I think that's a really exciting opportunity for companies, especially if they are selling data or already giving data as a product in some way. If they're selling, you know, data as a product services, this is a really great approach and a unique approach to solving data governance and making it everyone's opportunity to grow their own roles and work smarter. VICTORIA: Right. And when it's really the core of your business, it makes sense to pay more attention to that area [laughs]. It's what makes it worthwhile. It's what makes potential investors know that you're a real company who takes things seriously. [laughs] LAUREN: That's true. That's very true. VICTORIA: I'm thinking, what questions...do you have any questions for me? LAUREN: I'm curious to know, when you talk to thoughtbot clients, what are the main aspects of data that they struggle with? I hear a variety of reasons for data struggles when I talk to clients, when I talk to people on the tech side, either as engineers or architects. I'm curious to hear what the thoughtbot community struggles with the most when it comes to managing big data. VICTORIA: I think, in my experience, in the last less than a year that I've been with thoughtbot, one challenge which is sort of related to data...but I think for many small companies or startups they don't really have an IT department per se. So, like, what you mentioned early on in the discovery process as, like, who is the most senior technical person on your team? And that person may have little to no experience managing an IT operations group. I think it's really bringing consulting from the ground up for an organization on IT operations, data management, user and access management. Those types of policies might just be something they hadn't considered before because it's not in their background and experience. But maybe once they've gotten set up, I think the other interesting part that happens is sometimes there's just data that's just not being managed at all. And there are processes and bits and pieces of code in app that no one really knows what they are, who they're used for, [laughs] where the data goes. And then, you know, the connections between data. So everything that you're mentioning that could happen when you don't do data governance, where it can slow down deployment processes. It can mean that you're giving access to people who maybe shouldn't have access to production data. It can mean that you have vulnerabilities in your infrastructure. That means someone could have compromised your data already, and you just don't know about it. Just some of the issues that we see related to data across the spectrum of people in their lifecycle of their startups. LAUREN: That makes total sense, I think, especially when you are in a startup. If you're going by the typical startup model, you have that business-minded founder, and then you likely have a more technical co-founder. But we, I think, make the assumption that if you are, quote, unquote, "technical," you, therefore, know how to do anything and everything about every system, every framework, every type of cloud environment. And we all know that that's just not the case. And so it's easy to try to find the Chief Technology Officer or the Chief Information Officer if one exists and to think, oh, this is the right person for the job. And they might be the most qualified person given the context, but that still doesn't mean that they have experience doing this work. The reality is that very few people today have deep hands-on experience making decisions about data with the volume that we see today. And so it's a new frontier for many people. And then, on top of that, like you said as well, it's really difficult to know where your data lives and to track it. And the amount of work that goes into answering those very basic questions is enormous. And that's why documentation is so important. That's why data lineage in your architecture is so important. It really gives you a snapshot of which data lives where, how it's used. And that is invaluable in terms of reducing technical debt. VICTORIA: I agree. And I wonder if you have any tips for people facilitating conversations in their organization about data governance. What would you tell them to make it less scary and more fun, more appealing to work on? LAUREN: I both love and hate the term data governance. Because it's a word that you say, and whether you are technical or not, many people tune out as soon as they hear it because it is, in a way, a scary word. It makes people think purely of compliance, of being told what they can't do. And that can be a real challenge for folks. So I would say that if you are tasked with making a data governance program across your organization, you have to invest in making it real for people. You have to sell them on stewardship by articulating what folks will gain from serving as stewards. I think that's really critical because we are going to be asking folks to join a cause that they're not going to understand why it affects them or why it benefits them at first. And so it's really your job to articulate not only the benefits to them of helping to set up this data stewardship work but also articulating how data governance will help them get better at their jobs. I also think you have to create a culture where you are not only encouraging people to work across party lines, so to speak, to work across silos but to reward them for doing so. You are, especially in the early months, asking a lot of people who join your data stewardship initiatives and your data governance council you're asking them to build something from the ground up, and that's not easy work. So I think any opportunity you can come up with to reward stewards in the form of bonuses or in terms of giving them more leeway to do their jobs more of a title bump than they might have had otherwise. Giving them formal recognition for their contributions to data governance is really essential as well. Because then they see that they are rewarded for contributing to the thought leadership that helps the data governance move forward. VICTORIA: I'm curious, what is your favorite way to be rewarded at work, Lauren? LAUREN: So I am a words person. When we talk about love languages, one of them is words of affirmation. And I would say that is the best way to quote, unquote, "reward me." I save emails and screenshots of text messages and emails that have really meant a lot to me. If someone sends me a handwritten card that really strikes a chord, I will save that card for years. My refrigerator is filled with holiday cards and birthday cards, even from years past. And so any way to recognize people for the job they're doing and to let someone know that they're seen, and their work is seen and valued really resonates with me. I think this is especially important in remote environments because I love working from home, and I am at home alone all day. And so, especially if you are the only person of your kind, of your role on your team, it's very easy to feel insular and to wonder if you're hitting the mark, if you're doing a good job. I think recognition, whether verbally or on Slack, of a job well done it really resonates with me. And that's a great way to feel rewarded. VICTORIA: I love that. And being fully remote with thoughtbot, I can feel that as well. We have a big culture of recognizing people. At least weekly, we do 15Five as a tool to kind of give people high-fives across the company. LAUREN: Yep, Steampunk does...we use Lattice. And people can submit praise and recognition for their colleagues in Lattice. And it's hooked up to Slack. And so then, when someone submits positive feedback or a kudos to a colleague in Lattice, then everyone sees it in Slack. And I think that's a great way to boost morale and give people a little visibility that they might not have gotten otherwise, especially because we also do consulting work. So we are knee-deep in our projects on a daily basis, and we don't always see or know what our colleagues are working on. So little things like that go a long way towards making people feel recognized and valued as part of a bigger company. But I'm also curious, Victoria, what's your favorite way to get rewarded and recognized at work? VICTORIA: I think I also like the verbal. I feel like I like giving high-fives more than I like receiving them. But sometimes also, like, working at thoughtbot, there are just so many amazing people who help me all throughout the day. I start writing them, and then I'm like, well, I have to also thank this person, and then this person. And then I just get overwhelmed. [laughs] So I'm trying to do more often so I don't have a backlog of them throughout the week and then get overwhelmed on Friday. LAUREN: I think that's a great way to do it, and I think it's especially important when you're in a leadership role. Something that I'm realizing more and more as I progress in my career is that the more senior you are, the more your morale and attitude sets the tone for the rest of the team. And that's why I think if you are in a position to lead data governance, your approach to it is so crucial to success. Because you really have to get people on board with something that they might not understand at first, that they might resent it first. This is work that seems simple on the surface, but it's actually very difficult. The technology is easy. The people are what's hard. And you really have to come in, I think, emphasizing to your data stewards and your broader organization, not just what governance is, because, frankly, a lot of people don't care. But you really have to make it tangible for them. And you have to help them see that governance affects everyone, and everyone can have a hand in co-creating it through shared standards. I think there's a lot to be learned from the open-source community in this regard. The open-source community, more than any other I can think of, is the model of self-governance. It does not mean that it's perfect. But it does mean that people from all roles, backgrounds have a shared mission to build something from nothing and to make it an initiative that other people will benefit from. And I think that attitude is really well-positioned for success with data governance. VICTORIA: I love that. And great points all around on how data governance can really impact an organization. Are there any final takeaways for our listeners? LAUREN: The biggest takeaway I would say is to be thoughtful about how you roll out data governance in your organization. But don't be scared if your organization is small. Again, it's very common for people to think my business is too small to really implement governance. We don't have the budget for, you know, the AWS environment we might need. Or we don't have the right number of people to serve as stewards. We don't actually have many data domains yet because we're so new. And I would say start with what you have. If you are a business in today's day and age, I guarantee that you have enough data in your possession to start building out a data governance program that is thoughtful and mission-oriented. And I would really encourage everyone to do that, regardless of how big your organization is. And then the other takeaway I would say is, if you remember nothing else about data governance, I would say to remember that you automate your standards. Your standards for data quality, data destruction, data usage are not divorced from your technical team's production environments; it's the exact opposite. Your standards should govern your environment, and they should be a lighthouse when you are doing that work. And so you always want to try to integrate your standards into your production environment, into your ETL pipelines, into your DevSecOps. That is where the magic happens. Keeping them siloed won't work. And so I'd love for people, if you really enjoyed this episode and the conversation resonated with you, too, get a copy of the book. It is my first book. And I was really excited to work with the Pragmatic Programmers on it. So if readers go to pragprog.com, they can get a copy of the book directly through the publisher. But the book is also available at Target, Barnes & Noble, Amazon, and local bookstores. So I am very grateful as a first-time author for any and all support. And I would really also love to hear from thoughtbot clients and podcast listeners what you thought of the book because version two is not out of the question. VICTORIA: Well, looking forward to it. Thank you again so much, Lauren, for joining us today. You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com. Special Guest: Lauren Maffeo.

I'm trying to create a street team to help me push this episode, far and wide and raise money for her organization! JOIN HERE: https://m.facebook.com/groups/1340986413130271/?ref=share&mibextid=S66gvF   Lauren Trantham's pain became her purpose. After completing a 10,000-mile solo motorcycle trip, she found a way to turn her pain into her dream, which was celebrating and supporting domestic sex trafficking survivors. As the founder of Ride My Road™, she now empowers others to join her in this anti-human trafficking movement. Her journey led her to take photographs of survivors, empowering them to stand on their own. "My journey to launching this nonprofit and doing this project began with a journey through emotional abuse." - Lauren Her mission is to educate others about human trafficking and to help victims. Her goal is to empower individuals to create a movement through education. There is an increased risk of people being sucked into human trafficking because children and adults have easy access to it. Sites like OnlyFans make it easy for younger children to share their bodies for easy money. There is evidence that children as young as nine-years-old are sending nudes online. This needs to change and adults need to become more aware of what is going on. By instilling self-worth through accomplishments and personality traits, we can prevent exploitation. "Once I met these survivors and once I really learned about how prolific human trafficking is in the United States, I just couldn't let it go." -Lauren It started as a personal journey to healing her own pain and led to her meeting other survivors and empowering them to tell their stories. During her journey, she discovered the prevalence of human trafficking in the US and knew she wanted to be a part of the solution. There is a lot we can learn from those who come forward and tell us how they overcame human trafficking and got out of it.   LAUREN TRANTHAM Lauren is the founder of Ride My Road. In 2016, Lauren set out on a 10,000-mile solo motorcycle journey across the United States to photograph American survivors of human trafficking. Five years later, Ride My Road has raised hundreds of thousands of dollars for survivor-led organizations, hosted dozens of events across the country, and educated thousands of motorcyclists on the realities of human trafficking in America. Connect with Lauren: https://www.ridemyroad.org/ Get tickets to May 20th Event, Day of Disruption, in Medford, OR, and/or donate to a fundraiser to be matched by doTERRA Healing Hands Events — Ride My Road   Do you own doTERRA Healing Hands fundraiser - The Match Program   Books -  Arin Fugate's Amazon Page - Jasmine & Juniper Podcast Book Recommendations Copdependencey No More  Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself (Original Edition) Why does he do that?  Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men Attachment Styles - Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help YouFind - and Keep - Love   Resources for Abuse Domestic violence Hotline 800-799-7233 SMS: Text START to 88788   The Botanical Inspired Living Community You don't have to know everything about holistic living to benefit. All you need is some guidance and a fun community to get started. This is THE place to be. If you're interested in aromatherapy, meditation, and more, as natural healing remedies...   You'll love the Botanical Inspired Living Community! Get started today    Connect with Arin: http://www.jasmineandjuniper.com/connect Purchase Essential Oils   IG: @Jasmine andJuniperLiving  FB: @ariningraham77  TikTok: @jasmineandjuniper Contact Email: arin@jasmineandjuniper.com

You guys, I am literally giggling with excitement over what we are about to do together.  Last year, we did a series, the first series on Your Anxiety Toolkit where we talked about mental compulsions. It was a six-part series. We had some of the best therapists and best doctors in the world talking about mental compulsions. It was such a hit. So many people got so much benefit out of it. I loved it so much, and I thought that was fun, let's get back to regular programming. But for the entire of last year after that series, it kept bugging me that I needed to do a series on sexual health and anxiety. It seems like we're not talking about it enough. It seems like everyone has questions, even people on social media. The algorithm actually works against those who are trying to educate people around sex and sexual side effects and arousal and how anxiety impacts it. And so here I am. No one can stop us. Let's do it.  This is going to be a six-part sexual health and anxiety series, and today we have a return guest, the amazing Lauren Fogel Mersy. She is the best. She is a sex therapist. She talks all about amazing stuff around sexual desire, sexual arousal, sexual anxiety. She's going to share with you, she has a book coming out, but she is going to kick this series off talking about sexual anxiety, or we actually also compare and contrast sexual performance anxiety because that tends to better explain what some of the people's symptoms are.  Once we go through this episode, we're then going to meet me next week where I'm going to go back over. I've done an episode on it before, but we're going to go back over understanding arousal and anxiety. And then we're going to have some amazing doctors talking about medications and sexual side effects. We have an episode on sexual intrusive thoughts. We have an episode on premenstrual anxiety. We also have an episode on menopause and anxiety. My hope is that we can drop down into the topics that aren't being covered enough so that you feel like you've got one series, a place to go that will help you with the many ways in which anxiety can impact us when it comes to our sexual health, our sexual arousal, our sexual intimacy. I am so, so, so excited. Let's get straight to it.  This is Episode 1 of the Sexual Health and Anxiety Series with Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy. Lauren is a licensed psychologist. She's a certified sex therapist, she's an author, and she is going to share with us and we're going to talk in-depth about sexual anxiety. I hope you enjoy the show. I hope you enjoy all of the episodes in this series. I cannot wait to listen to these amazing speakers—Lauren, being the first one. Thank you, Lauren. What Is Sexual Anxiety Or Sexual Performance Anxiety? Are They The Same Thing? Kimberley: Welcome. I am so happy to have you back, Dr. Lauren Fogel Mersy. Welcome. Dr. Lauren: Thank you so much for having me back. I'm glad to be here. Kimberley: I really wanted to deep dive with you. We've already done an episode together. I'm such a joy to have you on. For those of you who want to go back, it's Episode 140 and we really talked there about how anxiety impacts sex. I think that that is really the big conversation. Today, I wanted to deep dive a little deeper into talking specifically about sexual anxiety, or as I did a little bit of research, what some people call sexual performance anxiety. My first question for you is, what is sexual anxiety or what is sexual performance anxiety? Are they the same thing or are they a little different? Dr. Lauren: I think people will use those words interchangeably. It's funny, as you say that, I think that performance anxiety, that word ‘performance' in particular, I hear that more among men than I do among women. I think that that might be attributed to so many people's definition of sex is penetration. In order for penetration to be possible, if there's a partner who has a penis involved that that requires an erection. I often hear that word ‘performance' attributed to essentially erection anxiety or something to do with, will the erection stay? Will it last? Basically, will penetration be possible and work out? I think I often hear it attributed to that. And then sexual anxiety is a maybe broader term for a whole host of things, I would say, beyond just erection anxiety, which can involve anxiety about being penetrated. It could be anxiety about certain sexual acts like oral sex giving, receiving. It could be about whether your body will respond in the way that you want and hope it to. I think that word, sexual anxiety, that phrasing can encompass a lot of different things. WHAT ARE SOME SEXUAL ANXIETY SYMPTOMS? Kimberley: Yeah. I always think of it as, for me, when I talk with my patients about the anticipatory anxiety of sex as well. Like you said, what's going to happen? Will I orgasm? Will I not? Will they like my body? Will they not? I think that it can be so broad. I love how you define that, how they can be different. That performance piece I think is really important. You spoke to it just a little, but I'd like to go a little deeper. What are some symptoms of sexual anxiety that a man or a woman may experience?  Dr. Lauren: I think this can be many different things. For some people, it's the inability to get aroused, which sifting through the many things that can contribute to that, knowing maybe that I'm getting into my head and that's what's maybe tripping me up and making it difficult to get aroused. It could be a racing heartbeat as you're starting to get close to your partner, knowing that sex may be on the table. I've had some people describe it can get as severe as getting nauseated, feeling like you might be sick because you're so worked up over the experience. Some of that maybe comes from trauma or negative experiences from the past, or some of it could be around a first experience with a partner really hoping and wanting it to go well. Sometimes we can get really nervous and those nerves can come out in our bodies, and then they can also manifest in all of the thoughts that we have in the moment, really getting distracted and not being able to focus and just be present. It can look like a lot of different things. SEXUAL AVOIDANCE Kimberley: That's so interesting to hear in terms of how it impacts and shows up. What about people who avoid sex entirely because of that? I'm guessing for me, I'm often hearing about people who are avoiding. I'm guessing for you, people are coming for the same reason. You're a sex therapist. How does that show up in your practice? Dr. Lauren: One of the things that can cause avoidance-- there's actually an avoidance cycle that people can experience either on their own or within a partnership, and that avoidance is a way of managing anxiety or managing the distress that can come with challenging sexual experiences and trying to either protect ourselves or protect our relationships from having those outcomes as a possibility. There used to be a diagnosis called sexual aversion. It was called a sexual aversion disorder. We don't have that in our language anymore. We don't use that disorder because I think it's a really protective, sensible thing that we might do at times when we get overwhelmed or when we're outside of what we call a window of tolerance. It can show up as complete avoidance of sexual activity. It could show up as recoiling from physical touch as a way to not indicate a desire for that to progress any further. It could be avoidance of dating because you don't want the inevitable conversation about sexuality or the eventuality that maybe will come up. Depending on whether you're partnered or single and how that manifests in the relationship, it can come out in different ways through the avoidance of maybe different parts of the sexual experience, everything from dampening desire to avoiding touch altogether.  Kimberley: That's really interesting. They used to have it be a diagnosis and then now, did they give it a different name or did they just wipe it off of the DSM completely? What would you do diagnostically now?  Dr. Lauren: It's a great question. I think it was wiped out completely. I haven't looked at a DSM in a long time. I think it was swiped out completely. Just personally as a sex therapist and the clinician I am today, I don't use many of the sexual health diagnoses from the DSM because I think that they are pathologizing to the variation in the human sexual experience. I'm not so fond of them myself. What I usually do is I would frame that as an anxiety-related concern or just more of a sexual therapy or sex counseling concern. Because I think as we have a growing understanding of our nervous system and the ways in which our system steps in to protect us when something feels overwhelming or frightening or uncertain, I think it starts to make a lot of sense as to why we might avoid something or respond in the ways that we do. Once we have some understanding of maybe there's some good sense behind this move that you're making, whether that's to avoid or protect or to hesitate or to get in your head, then we can have some power over adjusting how we're experiencing the event once we understand that there's usually a good reason why something's there. Kimberley: That is so beautiful. I love that you frame it that way. It's actually a good lesson for me because I am always in the mindset of like, we've got to get rid of avoidance. That's the anxiety work that I do. I think that you bring up a beautiful point that I hadn't even considered, which is, we always look at avoidance as something we have to fix as soon as possible. I think what you're saying is you don't conceptualize it that way at all and we can talk more about what you could do to help if someone is having avoidance and they want to fix that. But what I think you're saying is we're not here to pathologize that as a problem here. Dr. Lauren: Yeah. I see it, I'm trained less in the specifics. I think that makes a lot of sense when you're working with specific anxiety disorders and OCD and the like. I've, as of late, been training in more and more emotionally focused therapy. I'm coming at it from an attachment perspective, and I'm coming at it from somewhat of a systemic perspective and saying, what is the avoidance doing? What is it trying to tell us? There's usually some good reason somewhere along the way that we got where we are. Can I validate that that makes sense? That when something is scary or uncertain or you were never given good information or you really want something to go well and you're not sure about it, and it means a lot to you, there's all kinds of good reasons why that might hit as overwhelming. When we're talking about performance anxiety or sexual anxiety, really the number one strategy I'm looking for is, how can we work with what we call your window of tolerance? If your current comfort zone encompasses a certain amount of things, whatever that might be, certain sexual acts with maybe a certain person, maybe by yourself, I want to help you break down where you want to get to and break that into the smallest, manageable, tolerable steps so that what we're doing is we've got one foot in your current window of what you can tolerate and maybe just a toe at a time out, and breaking that up into manageable pieces so that we don't keep overwhelming your system. That is essentially what my job is with a lot of folks, is helping them take those steps and often what our nervous system needs to register, that it's okay, that it's safe, that we can move towards our goals. Cognitively, we think it's too slow or it's too small. It's not. We have to really break that down.  If there's something about the sexual experience that you're avoiding, that is overwhelming, that you're afraid of, what I do is validate that, makes sense that that maybe is just too much and too big all at once. And then let's figure out a way to work ourselves up to that goal over time. Usually, slower is faster.  WHY DO PEOPLE HAVE SEXUAL ANXIETY?  Kimberley: I love that. I really do. Why do people have sexual anxiety? Is that even an important question? Do you explore that with your patients? I think a lot of people, when I see them in my office or online, we know there's a concern that they want to fix, but they're really quite distressed by the feeling that something is wrong with them and they want to figure out what's wrong with them. Do you have some feedback on why people have sexual anxiety?  Dr. Lauren: I do. I think it can stem from a number of experiences or lack thereof in our lives. There are some trends and themes that come up again and again that I've seen over the years in sex therapy. Even though we're taping here in the US, we're in a culture that has a lot of sexuality embedded within the media, there is still a lot of taboo and a lot of misinformation about sex or a lack of information that people are given. I mean, we still have to fight for comprehensive sex education. Some people have gotten explicitly negative messages about sex growing up. Some people have been given very little to know information about sex growing up. Both of those environments can create anxiety about sex. We also live in a world where we're talking openly about sex with friends, parents teaching their children more than just abstinence, and going into a little bit more depth about what healthy sexuality looks like between adults. A lot of that is still not happening. What you get is a very little frame of reference for what's ‘normal' and what's considered concerning versus what is par for the course with a lifetime of being a sexual person. So, a lot of people are just left in the dark, and that can create anxiety for a good portion of those folks, whether it's having misinformation or just no information about what to expect. And then the best thing that most of us have to draw on is the Hollywood version of a very brief sex scene. Kimberley: Yes. I was just thinking about that. Dr. Lauren: And it's just so wildly different than your actual reality. Kimberley: Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking about, is the expectation is getting higher and higher, especially as we're more accessible to pornography online, for the young folks as well, just what they expect themselves to do. Dr. Lauren: That's right. We have young people being exposed to that on the internet. We've got adults viewing that. With proper porn literacy and ethical porn consumption, that can be a really healthy way to enjoy erotic content and to engage in sexuality. The troubling thing is when we're not media literate, when we don't have some of the critical thinking to really remember and retain the idea that this entertainment, this is for arousal purposes, that it's really not giving an accurate or even close depiction of what really goes on between partners. I think it's easier for us to maintain that level of awareness when we're consuming general movies and television. But there's something about that sexuality when you see it depicted in the media that so many people are still grappling with trying to mimic what they see. I think that's because there's such an absence of a frame of reference other than those media depictions. SEXUAL ANXIETY IN MALES VS SEXUAL ANXIETY IN FEMALES  Kimberley: Right. So good. Is there a difference between sexual anxiety in males and sexual anxiety in females? Dr. Lauren: I think it can show up differently, certainly depending on what role you play in the sexual dynamic, what positions you're looking to or what sexual acts you're looking to explore. There's a different level or a different flavor of anxiety, managing erection anxiety, managing anxiety around premature ejaculation. They're all similar, but there's some unique pieces to each one. All of the types of anxiety that I've seen related to sex have some common threads, which is getting up into our heads and dampening the experience of pleasure not being as present in the moment, not being as embodied in the moment, because we get too focused on what will or won't happen just moments from now.  While that makes so much sense, you're trying to foretell whether it's going to be a positive experience, there is a-- I hate to say like a self-fulfilling prophecy, but there's a reaction in our bodies to some of those anxious thoughts. If I get into my head and I start thinking to myself, “This may not go well. This might hurt. I might lose my arousal. I might not be able to orgasm. My partner may not think I'm good in bed,” whatever those anxious thoughts are, the thoughts themselves can become a trigger for a physical reaction. That physical reaction is that it can turn on our sympathetic nervous system, and that is the part of our body that says, “Hey, something in the environment might be dangerous here, and it's time to mobilize and get ready to run.” What happens in those moments once our sympathetic system is online, a lot of that blood flow goes out of our genital region, out of our chest and into our extremities, to your arms, to your legs. Your body is acting as if there was a bear right there in front of you and your heart rate goes up and all of these things. Now, some of those can also be signs of arousal. That's where it can get really tricky because panting or increased heart rate or sweating can also be arousal. It's really confusing for some people because there can be a parallel process in your physiology. Is this arousal or is this anxiety?  CAN ANXIETY IMPACT AROUSAL? CAN ANXIETY IMPACT SEX DRIVE?  Kimberley: It's funny that you mentioned that because as I was researching and doing a little bit of Googling about these topics, one of the questions which I don't get asked very often is, can anxiety cause arousal? Because I know last time, we talked about how anxiety can reduce arousal. Is that something that people will often report to you that having anxiety causes them to have sexual arousal, not fight and flight arousal? Dr. Lauren: Yeah. I mean, what I see more than anything is that it links to desire, and here's how that tends to work for some people because then the desire links to the arousal and it becomes a chain. For many people out in the world, they engage in sexual activity to impart self-soothe and manage stress. It becomes a strategy or an activity that you might lean on when you're feeling increased stress or distress. That could be several different emotions that include anxiety. If over my lifetime or throughout the years as I've grown, maybe I turn to masturbation, maybe I turn to partnered sex when I'm feeling anxious, stressed, or distressed, over time, that's going to create a wiring of some of that emotion, and then my go-to strategy for decreasing that emotion or working through that emotion. That pairing over time can definitely work out so that as soon as I start feeling anxious, I might quickly come to feelings of arousal or a desire to be sexual. Kimberley: Very interesting. Thank you. That was not a question I had, but it was interesting that it came up when I was researching. Very, very cool. This is like a wild card question. Again, when I was researching here, one of the things that I got went down a little rabbit hole, a Google rabbit hole, how you go down those... Dr. Lauren: That's never happened to me. WHAT IS POST-SEX ANXIETY?  Kimberley: ...is, what about post-sex anxiety? A lot of what we are talking about today, what I would assume is anticipatory anxiety or during-sex anxiety. What about post-sex anxiety? What is post-sex anxiety? Dr. Lauren: I've come across more-- I don't know if it's research or articles that have been written about something called postcoital dysphoria, which is like after-sex blues. Some people get tearful, some get sad, some feel like they want to pull away from their partner and they need a little bit of space. That's certainly a thing that people report. I think either coexisting with that or sometimes in its place can be maybe feelings of anxiety that ramp up. I think that can be for a variety of things. Some of it could be, again, getting into your head and then doing a replay like, was that good? Are they satisfied? We get into this thinking that it's like a good or bad experience and which one was it. Also, there's many people who look to sex, especially when we have more anxiety, and particularly if we have a more predominantly anxious attachment where we look to sex as a way to validate the relationship, to feel comforted, to feel secure, to feel steady. There's a process that happens where it's like seeking out sex for comfort and steadiness, having sex in the moment, feeling more grounded. And then some of that anxiety may just return right on the other end once sex is over, and then you're back to maybe feeling some insecurity or unsteadiness again. When that happens, that's usually a sign that it's not just about sex. It's not just a sexual thing. It's actually more of an attachment and an insecurity element that needs and warrants may be a greater conversation.  The other thing is your hormones and chemicals change throughout the experience. You get this increase of bonding maybe with a partner, oxytocin, and feel-good chemicals, and then they can sometimes drop off after an orgasm, after the experience. For some people, they might just experience that as depressed mood anxiety, or just a feeling of being unsettled. Kimberley: That's so interesting. It makes total sense about the attachment piece and the relational piece, and that rumination, that more self-criticism that people may do once they've reviewed their performance per se. That's really helpful to hear. Actually, several people have mentioned to me when I do lives on Instagram the postcoital dysphoria. Maybe you could help me with the way to word it, but is that because of a hormone shift, or is that, again, because of a psychological shift that happens after orgasm? Dr. Lauren: My understanding is that we're still learning about it, that we've noticed that it's a phenomenon. We're aware of it, we have a name for it, but I don't know that we have enough research to fully understand it just yet. Right now, if I'm not misquoting the research, I believe our understanding is more anecdotal at this point. I would say, many different things could be possible, anything from chemical changes to attachment insecurities, and there's probably things that are beyond that I'm also missing in that equation. I think it's something we're still studying. HOW TO OVERCOME SEX ANXIETY, AND HOW CAN WE COPE WITH SEX ANXIETY?   Kimberley: Very interesting. Let's talk now about solutions. When should someone reach out to either a medical professional, a mental health professional? What would you advise them to do if they're experiencing sexual anxiety or performance anxiety when it comes to sex? Dr. Lauren: That makes a lot of sense. That's a great question. What I like to tell people is I want you to think of your sexual experiences like a bell curve. For those who were not very science or math-minded like myself, just a quick refresher, a bell curve basically says that the majority of your experiences in sex are going to be good, or that's what we're hoping for and aiming for. And then there's going to be a few on one tail, there's going to be some of those, not the majority, that are amazing, that are excellent, that really stand out. Yes, mind-blowing, fabulous. And then there's the other side of that curve, that pole. The other end is going to be, something didn't work out, disappointing, frustrating. There is no 100% sexual function across a lifetime with zero hiccups. That's not going to be a realistic goal or expectation for us.  I always like to start off by reminding people that you're going to have some variation and experience. What we'd like is for at least a good chunk of them to be what Barry McCarthy calls good enough sex. It doesn't have to be mind-blowing every time, but we want it to be satisfying, of good quality. If you find that once or twice you can't get aroused, you don't orgasm, you're not as into it, one of the liabilities for us anxious folks, and I consider myself one of them having generalized anxiety disorder my whole life—one of the things that we can do sometimes is get catastrophic with one or two events where it doesn't go well and start to jump to the conclusion that this is a really bad thing that's happening and it's going to happen again, and it's life-altering sort of thing. One thing is just keeping this in mind that sometimes that's going to happen, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the next time you go to be sexual that it'll happen again. But if you start to notice a pattern, a trend over several encounters, then you might consider reaching out to someone like a general therapist, a sex therapist to help you figure out what's going on.  Sometimes there's a medical component to some of these concerns, like a pattern of difficulty with arousal. That's not a bad idea to get that checked out by a medical provider because sometimes there could be blood flow concerns or hormone concerns. Again, I think we're looking for patterns. If there's a pattern, if it's something that's happening more than a handful of times, and certainly if it's distressing to you, that might be a reason to reach out and see a professional. Kimberley: I think you're right. I love the bell curve idea and actually, that sounds very true because often I'll have clients who have never mentioned sex to me. We're working on their anxiety disorder, and then they have one time where they were unable to become aroused or have an erection or have an orgasm. And then like you said, that catastrophic thought of like, “What happens if this happens again? What if it keeps happening?” And then as you said, they start to ruminate and then they start to avoid and they seek reassurance and all those things. And then we're in that kind of, as you said, self-fulfilling, now we're in that pattern. That rings very, very true. What about, is there any piece of this? I know I'm disclosing and maybe from my listeners, you're probably thinking it's TMI, but I remember after having children that everything was different and it did require me to go and speak to a doctor and check that out. So, my concerns were valid in that point. Would it be go to the therapist first, go to the doctor first? What would you recommend? Dr. Lauren: Yeah. I mean, you're not alone in that. The concerns are always valid, whether they're medical, whether they're psychological, wherever it's stemming from. If after once or twice you get freaked out and you want to just go get checked out, I don't want to discourage anybody from doing that either. We're more than happy to see you, even if it's happened once or twice, just to help walk you through that so you're not alone. But the patterns are what we're looking for overall.  I think it depends. Here's some of the signs that I look for. If sex is painful, particularly for people with vaginas, if it's painful and it's consistently painful, that's something that I would recommend seeing a sexual medicine specialist for. There are some websites you can go to to look up a sexual medicine specialist, someone in particular who has received specialized training to treat painful sex and pelvic pain. That would be an indicator. If your body is doing a lot of bracing and tensing with sex so your pelvic floor muscles are getting really tight, your thighs are clenching up, those might be some moments where maybe you want to see a medical provider because from there, they may or may not recommend, depending on whether it's a fit for you, something called pelvic floor therapy. That's something that people can do at various stages of life for various reasons but is doing some work specifically with the body.  Other things would be for folks with penises. If you're waking up consistently over time where you're having difficulty getting erections for sexual activity and you're not waking up with erections anymore, that morning wood—if that's consistent over time, that could be an indicator to go get something checked out, maybe get some blood work, talk to your primary care just to make sure that there's nothing in addition to maybe if we think anxiety is a part of it, make sure there's nothing else that could be going on as well. HOW TO COPE WITH SEX ANXIETY Kimberley: Right. I love this. This is so good. Thank you again. Let's quickly just round it out with, how may we overcome this sex anxiety, or how could we cope with sex anxiety? Dr. Lauren: It's the million-dollar question, and I've got a pretty, I'll say, simple but not easy answer. It's a very basic answer. Kimberley: The good answers are always simple but hard to apply. Dr. Lauren: Simple, it's a simple theory or idea. It's very hard in practice. One of, I'd say, the main things I do as a sex therapist is help people really diversify what sex is. The more rigid of a definition we have for sex and the more rigidly we adhere to a very particular set of things that have to happen in a particular order, in a very specific way, the more trouble we're going to have throughout our lifetime making that specific thing happen. The work is really in broadening and expanding our definition of sex and having maybe a handful of different pathways to be sexual or to be intimate with a partner so that, hey, if today I have a little bit more anxiety and I'm not so sure that I get aroused that we can do path A or B. If penetration is not possible today because of whatever reason that we can take path C. When we have more energy or less energy, more time, less time, that the more flexibility we have and expansiveness we have to being intimate and sexual, the more sexual you'll be. Kimberley: Just because I want to make sure I can get what you're saying, when you say this inflexible idea of what this narrow you're talking about, I'm assuming, I'm putting words in your mouth and maybe what you're thinking because I'm sure everybody's different, but would I be right in assuming that the general population think that sex is just intercourse and what you're saying is that it's broader in terms of oral sex and other? Is that the A, B, and C you're talking about?  Dr. Lauren: Yeah. There's this standard sexual script that most people follow. It's the one that we see in Hollywood, in erotic videos. It centers mostly heterosexual vaginal penetration, so penis and vagina sex. It centers sex as culminating in orgasm mainly for the man, and then nice if it happens for the woman as well in these heterosexual scenarios. It follows a very linear progression from start to finish. It looks something like—tell me if this doesn't sound familiar—a little bit of kissing and some light touching and then some heavier touching, groping, caressing, and then maybe oral sex and then penetration as the main event, orgasm as the finish line. That would be an example of when I say path A or B or C. I'm thinking like that in particular what I just described.  Let's call that path A for not that it's the gold standard, but it's the one we draw on. Let's say that's one option for having a sexual encounter. But I also want people to think about there's going to be times where that is not on the table for a variety of reasons, because if you think about it, that requires a certain energy, time. There might be certain conditions that you feel need to be present in order for that to be possible. For some people, it automatically goes to the wayside the moment something happens like, “Well, I don't feel like I have enough time,” or “I'm tired,” or “I'm menstruating,” or whatever it is. Something comes up as a barrier and then that goes out the door. That can include things like anxiety and feeling like we have to adhere to this progression in this particular way. Let's call that path A. Path B might be, we select a couple of things from that that we like. Let's say we do a little kissing and we do oral sex and we say goodnight. Let's say path C is we take a shower together and we kiss and we soap each other's backs and we hug. That's path C. Path D is massaging each other, full body. You've got all these different pathways to being erotic or sensual or intimate or sexual. The more that you have different pathways to being intimate, the more intimate you'll be. Kimberley: That is so relieving is the word I feel. I feel a sense of relief in terms of like, you're right. I think that that is a huge answer, as you said. Actually, I think it's a good answer. I don't think that's a hard answer. I like that. For me, it feels like this wonderful relief of pressure or change of story and narrative. I love that. I know in the last episode you did, you talked a lot about mindfulness and stuff like that, which I will have in this series. People can go and listen to it as well. I'm sure that's a piece of the pie. I want to be respectful of your time. Where can people hear more about you and the work that you're doing? I know that you have an exciting book coming out, so tell us a little bit about all that. Dr. Lauren: Thank you. I do. I co-authored a book called Desire. It's an inclusive guide to managing libido differences in relationships. I co-authored that with my colleague Dr. Jennifer Vencill. That comes out August 22nd, 2023 of this year. We'll be talking in that book mainly about desire. There are some chapters or some sections in the book that do intersect with things like anxiety. There's some particular instructions and exercises that help walk people through some things that they can do with a partner or on their own to work through anxiety. We've got an anxiety hierarchy in there where whatever your goal might be, how to break that up into smaller pieces. We're really excited about that. I think that might be helpful for some people in your audience. And then in general, I am most active on Instagram. My handle is my full name. It's @drlaurenfogelmersy. I'm also on Facebook and TikTok. My website is drlaurenfogel.com. Kimberley: Thank you. Once again, so much pleasure having you on the show. Thank you for your beautiful expertise. You bring a gentle, respectful warmth to these more difficult conversations, so thank you. Dr. Lauren: Oh, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me back.

People over age 65 have opportunities to save on their healthcare costs with health-sharing ministries. In today's Faith and Finance, Rob West explores those options with Lauren Gajdek, Vice-President of Communications and Media at Christian Healthcare Ministries.Lauren -  1 in 10 adults owe some kind of medical debt. At Christian Healthcare Ministries we want to create a different reality for people, making sure they don't live with medical debt.Rob - It's worse for seniors, isn't it?Lauren Absolutely. As we age medical bills tend to go up. Medicare doesn't cover 100% of your costs.Rob - If you're already a member, continuing in a Christian Healthcare Ministries plan is easy, isn't it?Lauren -  Yes, at age 65 if you're already a member of CHM you can stay on without interruption. And others can jump on board.Rob - What is Senior Share?Lauren -  It isn't health insurance, but is instead a cost-reduction program. Our Gold program for people over 65 is only $115 a month.Rob - How can people get information about this?Lauren -  They can go to chministries.org or call us.Rob - This is a great option and a biblical option for anyone looking to cope with the rising costs of healthcare, isn't it?Lauren -  Absolutely. We are biblically based.Rob - For those who want to go on Senior Share, do they have to have Medicare A and B in order to do so?Lauren -  Correct. Medicare is considered the first payer and CHM is then available to help with the additional costs that Medicare wouldn't pay.Next, Rob answers these questions at 800-525-7000 or via email at askrob@FaithFi.com:Testimony from caller: He listened to the program several years ago and previously had no idea it was biblical to be debt-free. He paid off house, has an emergency fund, and have just retired.What are better options for your government retirement Thrift Savings Plan which you put in the G Fund last year and it is only earning a low fixed interest rate, if you are newly retired but don't need to draw on the funds?Will you owe taxes on the sale of a home you inherited last year from your father if he left no will and his estate is going through probate?Is it the law that you can't received Social Security benefits from the records of two husbands, if you were twice widowed after having been married for 14 years both times?What is the best vehicle to make the most of your grandson's Social Security survivor's benefits that you are setting aside for his college or future expenses?If you have a payment plan with the IRS can they garnish funds out of your bank account?Be sure to check out the rest of FaithFi.com to access our books and our many free helpful resources. You can also find us on Facebook Faith and Finance (Live) and join the conversation. Thanks for your prayerful and financial support that helps keep Faith and Finance (Live) on the air. And if you'd like to help, just click the Give button. 

138. Re-Release - Time to Lean In Rather Than Backing Out with Lauren V Davies   Couldn't resist sharing this fab episode! It was absolutely amazing to have Lauren V Davis on the show... #Takeaways We chat about personal branding.  How important it is for others to see the real you. The importance of leaning in to opportunities. Having female role models to inspire us. Tips on how to make the most of networking.   Lauren is sharing her thoughts on why she would love to see more women in positions of leadership, why it is so important to take those opportunities when they are presented to you and why it is crucial to have a personal brand which really reflects who you are and what you represent.   ‘Your personal brand is what you're known for, how people experience what makes you uniquely you.' – Lauren ‘It's really important to build connections.' – Gemma ‘The more people who believe and trust in who you are as a person, the more those relationships convert into sales and into a great business where you feel fulfilled.' – Lauren ‘I think it's really important to find people who inspire you.' – Gemma "One day waking up saying oh my gosh I'm speaking I've got a podcast and I'm doing all the things I never thought I would do and that comes from leaning in" - Gemma ‘It's the power you have inside you which influences the people around you.' - Lauren   An entrepreneur from an early age recognising the impact that hard work made, Lauren has had an incredible journey. She recognised a genuine love of branding, strategy and marketing when she started her first venture as a small business owner.  Lauren Davis lives in Rockford Illinois and works with people over the world to overcome their personal branding discontent and grow their presence so that they can focus on sales, exposure, leadership and community impact through her marketing consultancy Lauren Davis Creative and her podcast, the Business EventPlaybook. Lauren's natural and undying passion revolves around taking new learning opportunities, travelling the globe and networking at conferences and workshops in order that she can better serve her clients. As she says, she loves to improve, loves to impress and loves to give everyone she works with 100%. #Resources for YOU and your team! Click HERE to get the monthly 'Visibility Matters' Newsletter > that shares the latest around the gender pay gap, visibility, allyship, self promotion  and good practice that is happening all over the place that support more women to step up and companies to recognise the value they bring.     5 Steps to being more visible at work - Your HOW to guide!    Take the Test > How good is your visibility and personal branding quiz?    Book a chat with Gemma - This is the place to book a call to see how Gemma can help you or your company support female leaders to raise their profile, increase performance and visibility.   Get the White Paper > ‘Visibility at Work: The Importance of Self Promotion for Women's Career Progression   I want to hear from YOU so get in touch with me:   Connect with your host Gemma Stow: Website: https://www.gemmastow.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmastow/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/gemmastow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nomorehidingco   Connect with Lauren : Website: https://laurendaviscreative.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ldaviscreative/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LDavisCreative?ref=hl Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ldaviscreative/

Lauren Makler is Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Victoria talks to Lauren about tackling the access issues around egg freezing and donation and hoping to bring down the cost, leaving a company like Uber and starting her own business, and figuring out a go-to-market approach and what that strategy should look like. Cofertility (https://www.cofertility.com/) Follow Cofertility on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/cofertility/) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/cofertility). Follow Lauren Makler on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/laurenmakler/), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/laurenmakler/), or Twitter (https://twitter.com/laurenmakler). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: VICTORIA: This is The Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Victoria Guido. And with me today is Lauren Makler, Co-Founder, and CEO of Cofertility, a human-first fertility ecosystem rewriting the egg freezing and egg donation experience. Lauren, thank you for joining me. LAUREN: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited for this. VICTORIA: Me too. I want to hear all about Cofertility. Can you tell me a little bit more about the platform that you built? LAUREN: Absolutely. Cofertility is really like you said; we're a fertility ecosystem. And at our core, we're enabling women to freeze their eggs for free when they donate half of the eggs retrieved to a family that can't otherwise conceive, providing support and education for everyone involved along the way. You know, we're serving two very different audiences. One side of our business, our Freeze by Co, is targeted at women between the ages of 21 and 40 who might be interested in preserving their fertility. We know that really the best time to freeze your eggs, unfortunately, is when you can least afford it. And so we've really taken on this access issue and hoping to bring down the cost on that front. And then our Family by Co business is for intended parents who need the help of an egg donor to have a child, so that could be anyone from people who struggle with infertility, or gay dads, cancer survivors, et cetera. There are a lot of people that really rely on third-party reproduction to have a family, and we think it's time to really move that industry forward, and we're doing that in a lot of ways. So that's at a high level; happy to dig in more on any part of that. But we launched in October, and things have been going well ever since. VICTORIA: Wonderful. Yeah, I want to ask you more about...you mentioned the problem that you identified with when people who are most ready to freeze their eggs probably can't afford it. [laughs] But how did you really identify that problem and think I should start a company around this? LAUREN: Yeah, so it's a two-part problem. I think we see a big problem on the egg-freezing side, which is truly cost. I think we know that women are starting families later than ever. For the first time in U.S. history, the average age of women giving birth now is 30, which is the highest on record. And the experimental label from egg freezing was removed in 2012, and so it's become much more mainstream for women to do it. However, the cost to do it in the U.S. is between; I want to say, $12,000-20,000 to do it, plus yearly storage fees. And there are some women who have access to doing it through their large employer, but for the majority of people, that's just not the case. And so, for women who are really trying to prioritize their career or their education or maybe haven't found a partner yet, egg freezing can be a great option. And certainly, it's not an insurance policy by any means, and it's not a guarantee. But studies show that if you experience infertility later in life and you did freeze your eggs, you're much more likely to have a child than not. And so we see it as a great backup option. But again, cost is just truly a huge problem. And then, on the egg donation side, there are tons of families that rely on egg donation to have a baby. And I'm someone...I should mention, too, personally, years ago...I'll make a very long story very short here. Years ago, I was diagnosed with an incredibly rare abdominal disease that put into question my ability to have a biological child someday. And so, I started to look into what my options might be, and egg donation came up. And when I looked at what was happening in the space, I just couldn't believe how antiquated it was. And truly, for lack of a better word, how icky it felt. It seemed really transactional and impersonal for everyone involved. And what I realized was that it was really rooted in the stigma around egg donation that comes from cash compensation for donors. So traditionally, a donor is paid anywhere from $8,000 to $100,000 for her eggs, depending on, unfortunately, her pedigree or sometimes her heritage. Something that might be, you know, a donor that's harder to find might require more compensation the way it's done today. And so we actually saw that many women who are interested in helping another family grow through egg donation can actually be off-put by this idea of cash for their eggs. It's like, ooh, am I selling my eggs, or how do I feel about that? And it actually turns people off when it might otherwise have been something they wanted to explore. It also, I think, leaves intended parents without options that they need and really hurts the LGBTQ community that relies on egg donation for family planning. So there's a lot there. And we felt that that was something that if we remove cash compensation, perhaps it's something that really opens up the pie of women that are open to and interested in egg donation. And it also might really honor the donor-conceived person on the end of it more than what's happening today. Studies have come out that show that donor-conceived adults find the exchange of money for donor eggs to be wrong and that they can actually find it disturbing that money was exchanged for their own conception. So our model takes out cash compensation and instead gives women something that they're excited about, which is preserving their own fertility as well and really sets up everyone involved for success. VICTORIA: Yeah. I saw that in your literature, you bring this human-centered design to how you built the platform, which I think speaks to a little bit of what you're describing there. And do you think that being a woman founder yourself allows you to relate and empathize with women who have this unique perspective or a different perspective on how egg donation should work? LAUREN: Yes, egg donation and egg freezing, honestly. I think I mentioned a little bit about my own experience. Both of my two co-founders have also really, really been through it when it comes to their journeys to parenthood; both of them have been through IVF. And one of them says, you know, her biggest regret in life is that she didn't freeze her eggs at 25. And now, instead of just sitting in that, she's building a company to help other women not have that same regret. So building the company we wished existed when we were younger lets us build something that truly is empathetic and human-centered. And it's unfortunate that so much of healthcare is built and designed by people who, while maybe they have good intentions, they're not building from a place of experience, and I think reproductive health is one of those. I think women need to be involved in designing those solutions, and too often, they're not. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. That makes a lot of sense to me. And I want to talk more about you and your three co-founders and how quickly all this has come together. So, how did you know that your team of co-founders was the right team that these are the people you wanted to start this with? LAUREN: Yeah, it's an interesting question on so many fronts. I think there are people who spend a really long time, like co-founder dating, and use frameworks for evaluating co-founders, and the truth of it for us is that it all happened very quickly. Halle, who is the person who connected the three of us, she is one of my co-founders, and she's just someone I had long admired in digital health and women's health. And there was a day where...we peripherally knew each other. And she slid into my DMs on Instagram. Like, you never know where a great contact may come from. And she asked me what I was up to, what I was working on, and the rest is history. I told her I had just left...I spent eight and a half years at Uber and launched new markets of Uber across the East Coast and then started a business line at Uber called Uber Health, and Halle had always followed my trajectory there. And when she reached out to me, it was like, [gasps] what's it going to be about? And when it ended up that she had an idea centered around egg freezing and egg donation, given the experience I had had with my own fertility journey, it just felt like how could this not be the right thing for me to go build? So I would say gut instinct is really what it comes down to. Halle and Arielle, our third co-founder, had worked together a bit in their past lives. Halle built a company called Natalist, which is fertility, pregnancy tests, ovulation kits, and prenatal vitamins, things like that. And Arielle had actually built the first iteration of Cofertility, which was a fertility content site. And they had had that rapport already, and so that was something that I valued quite a bit. Really talking to some references and getting opinions of people you trust, but your gut, more than anything, will help you answer that question. VICTORIA: Right. And sounds like there's that shared experience and mutual respect, which goes a long way. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, that and also a shared vision. Like, if you're aligned with someone in the first month or so of talking about an idea, and when it goes from a little kernel to snowballing and becoming something real, I think it's a good signal. But if you're butting heads and disagreeing in that first really crucial time, it's probably a good idea to go in a different direction. VICTORIA: Yeah. And thinking along those lines, were there decisions that were really easy to make, and what were those? And the second part of the question is what decisions were kind of challenging to make, and what made those decisions challenging? LAUREN: It's funny. Halle was just like, "This idea is going to work, and I know it. Let's do it." I am someone who likes to see evidence before making a decision. And so I suggested in those first two weeks, like, let's get a survey together. Let's ask women, "Hey, would you actually be interested in egg donation if it meant that you got to keep half of the eggs for yourself and that there was no cash compensation involved?" So we asked a few influencers on Instagram to put out our Typeform, and within, like, I don't know, 24 hours, we had over 700 responses. VICTORIA: Wow. LAUREN: And it was a very resounding like, yes, this is something women were interested in. That gave me all the conviction I needed to go at this full force. And so I think having that proof point not only was valuable to help me get there, but it also helped investors get on board. I think some of the easy decisions were like there were certain investors that after meeting I just knew like, yes, this is someone I want to be working with over the next few years. This is someone who sees the same vision that we see. And there were a few conversations with other potential investors where I was like, you know what? That's not who I want to work with. Again, it's like, I'm very big on my instincts as it relates to people and trusting that. VICTORIA: Right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And congratulations on raising your seed funding. LAUREN: Thank you. VICTORIA: And was that a stressful process? How did you feel after that happened? LAUREN: Parts of it were stressful, for sure. I think the fact that I had never done it before was stressful. I like to call myself...before this, I was an intrapreneur. I pitched the idea of Uber Health to Uber executive leadership with a deck that was very similar to what you would pitch external investors with in a scenario like this. So I had gone through a little bit of that but never before had I done anything quite like this. And so I felt very lucky to have Halle by my side through that process because it wasn't her first rodeo. But I would say trusting yourself and trusting that you can figure this out. It seems so much more intimidating than it needs to be. No one is expecting you to fully know how all of this stuff works. It's very figureoutable. VICTORIA: And what obstacles did you face in the last year that you've been working on this? LAUREN: The biggest obstacle, I would say, honestly came down to having the time to both get a company off the ground...and I like to imagine an aeroplane. You have to figure out what kind of plane you're building; then you have to find all the parts, then you have to build the plane. And then the goal upon launch, I can imagine it when I close my eyes. It is like getting the plane off the ground. And with a startup, like you can imagine, there's always a bit of building the plane while you're flying it. But doing all of that over the last year, plus finding the right people to hire, is two full-time jobs. You're sourcing incredible candidates. You're meeting with them. You're pitching them the business. But you also need to evaluate whether or not they're as great as their resume makes them seem. Then you have to convince them to join your seed-stage startup, then check their references, and then put together their offer package, and then do all of their paperwork. And it was like all of these things that I took for granted at Uber for so long of having recruiters, and having an HR team, [laughs] and all of those things that truly it is a full-time job plus building a company. So that, for me, was the hardest. And hiring just at that early stage is so, so important because you add one person, and that's like such a huge percentage of your team. So every hire has to be a great one, but you also can't wait too long to hire because then you miss your goals. VICTORIA: Right. Yes. And there's lots of uncertainty going on in the world as well. I'm sure that makes hiring extra exciting. LAUREN: Yes. I mean, exciting and also scary. I think exciting from the fact that there's great talent that's looking in a way that wasn't necessarily the case six months ago, but scary in that you have to...one of my biggest or things that keeps me up at night is like, what's the right timing to bring on new people so that your business scales appropriately but not too soon that you have people waiting around for the work to come? VICTORIA: Right, yes. And speaking of scary, I can imagine the choice to leave a company like Uber and go and start your own business was thrilling. [laughs] Can you tell me more about how that happened, or what was the order of operations there? LAUREN: I'll go back to my personal story a little bit. So I ended up with this disease that I had been diagnosed with. It was so rare and so not a lot of data on this disease that I decided it was...or these doctors were like, "You know what? Do you have a sister by any chance?" I was like, "What do you mean?" They were like, "You know, it's too risky for you to freeze your eggs just because we don't have any data on your disease. But if you have your sister freeze her eggs and donate them to you, you have them as a backup should you need them." So my incredible sister did that. And I learned a lot about the process of donation even through that experience. And went on to have three surgeries and ultimately was able to conceive without using my sister's eggs which was crazy and exciting and definitely gave my doctors a shock, which was great. And when I had my daughter, it was like this light bulb went off of, like, I have to build something in reproductive health. If I'm spending my time building something, I want it to be spent giving people who want to have a child this amazing gift that I've been given. And it was like an immediate amount of clarity. And so, after my maternity leave, I gave notice at Uber without a plan. I did not have a business idea. I did not have a job lined up. I was fortunate enough to be able to do that. But I almost think releasing myself of that is what gave me the freedom to think about other things. And it was within a day that Halle sent me that DM on Instagram without knowing I had given notice. So the universe works in mysterious ways. VICTORIA: That's wonderful and so exciting and that you just had a baby and then to be in a position where you could start a company and almost feel like I don't have enough to do; [laughter] I want to start a new company too. [laughs] LAUREN: I know. I ended up...the day we pitched our lead investors was my daughter's six-month birthday. VICTORIA: That's amazing. MID-ROLL AD: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: tbot.io/devops. VICTORIA: How do you balance that, like, those needs of being a mom and maybe being sleep deprived, but also starting this incredibly important business that you're passionate about? LAUREN: I mean, I'm very lucky that I have an amazing husband and sort of partner in all of this. We both are very involved in each other's work, and I highly recommend that if that's something you're open to. I think it gives you an outlet and someone to be invested in it with you but also more to talk about with your partner. [laughs] But other than that, too, I think having boundaries. So I've been really, really specific with myself and with my team about what windows of time I'm with my daughter, and I'm meticulous about it. If that means on certain days, I wake up before she does so that I can get some work done so that I have two hours with her first thing in the morning, and then I'm off between the hours of 4:00 to 7:00 so that I can spend time with her. If that means getting back online at night, I'm down to do that. I just won't compromise the time with her. And my team has been really respectful and honoring of that. And in turn, I really encourage everyone on my team to have a life outside work, whether that's with their children or their pets, or having physical activity, or things like that in their life. I think it's so important that we're not entirely defined by our startups. I think that's how people burn out really quickly. And it's like 2023, right? We don't need to be in this hustle culture where 100% of our time is focused on building our company. It's just not sustainable. VICTORIA: Right. I like that you mentioned sustainability. And that's been a recurring theme I've seen where, yeah, the hustle culture leads to burnout. It isn't sustainable. So are there other cultural or values that you impart onto your team, this new team, that you're standing up to create that sustainability in that innovation that you want? LAUREN: Yeah. I think one thing we've implemented...I would highly recommend actually Matt Mochary's CEO Curriculum. You can find it by Googling it, or I can share the link with you. And within his curriculum, he has something called The Magic Questions. And the magic questions it's like five or six questions where you ask everyone on your team, like, how would they rate their life at work? How would they rate working with the team? How's their personal life going? Like, you know, questions that you can quickly get to the root of something. But then, aside from giving a rating for each of those questions, it asks like, "How would you take it to the next level?" And what I think implementing these questions has done is it's like each time we do it, it gives the leadership team something to act on of like, "Hey, I noticed a theme amongst the employees with this set of magic questions. Like, here are some things we can address to improve that for everyone." And then there are also opportunities with each individual to say, "Hey, manager of this person, so and so called out that they're really struggling with prioritization this month, or they're really struggling with being split on these two projects. How can we help relieve that, or how can we dig in with that person so that the next time we ask these questions, that's not still an issue and that we've been able to take swift action to help improve that?" I think that really helps to just stay close to what people are feeling and thinking. And it also gives people, I think, more self-awareness of how they're doing and what they can be intentional about and address for themselves as well. VICTORIA: I like that. I'll have to look up that book and share it in our show notes as well and -- LAUREN: It's actually even all online. It's like a Google Doc you can look at. VICTORIA: That's awesome. LAUREN: And there's also a book called The Great CEO Within by Matt Mochary. But I love the book and the Google Doc version. VICTORIA: That's awesome. And it sounds like you really pulled everything together so fast. [laughs] I'm curious about your background if you feel like there were...you mentioned that you pitched inwardly to Uber. But what else about your background kind of lends you to this leadership-founder skill set? LAUREN: I mean, I joined Uber in 2013 when we had, I think, fewer than 200 employees, and we were in about 12 cities. So I very much knew startup life. And I understood this idea of sort of building the plane while you're flying it and saw that. And so I think that certainly has contributed to this. It's important when you're a founder to surround yourself with other founders and to have people that you can tap into at any point. I'm in a few different Slack groups with different founders; some are healthcare founders, some women founders, some through the VCs that we've worked with where it's really easy to say, "Hey, which payroll tool are you using?" Or "Hey, like, how do I measure employee NPS?" Or "What tools are you using for this or that?" And if you can tap into other founders, you really can move a lot faster. You don't have to write your entire employee handbook from scratch because you can borrow from other people. I think that's one of the best hacks that I would recommend. And then some of these books that I found that really do, you know, within that Matt Mochary book, it's like, here's a way to make candidate offers. Obviously, the book isn't doing the work for you, but it certainly is helping to give you a framework. And then the other piece is like, aside from your own team, I think bringing in some advisors who you trust and can go to for certain things. So two of our advisors are people I worked incredibly closely with at Uber and would trust with my life and so why not trust them with my company? So bringing them into the mix has been a real relief. And then just sort of about your community. I think it takes a village to raise...I think, actually, I would compare launching a company to having a baby. So if having a baby takes a village, so does launching a company. VICTORIA: Right. Or no founder is an island. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, exactly. VICTORIA: There's like a community, a whole group around that. I've heard, even in the episodes I've recorded, that it's a common theme among successful founders, which is heartwarming and understandable. So last question about just how it all got started. But if you could travel back in time to when you first decided you wanted to go after this opportunity, what advice would you give yourself now that you have all your present knowledge? LAUREN: I say this even to our intended parents who are grappling with this decision of using an egg donor to have a baby: remain steadfast on the vision or the end goal and be flexible on the how. So if you're an intended parent, it's like, remain flexible, like, steadfast on this idea that you want to become a parent, but be flexible on the how. With a company, I think stay true to what that ultimate vision is. So, for us, it's like help more people have babies on their own timeline and be flexible on the how, so exactly what our business model was, or exactly what our go-to-market approach would be, or exactly which product we were going to use to get there. I wish I had been a little bit more open to it being a winding road than I realized I needed to be at the beginning. So now I know that, and I'm open to any possibility as long as it gets us to the same place. VICTORIA: Right, gotcha. Yeah, well, let me ask you then about your go-to-market strategy since you mentioned it. What was unique in your strategy there, especially to target the specific consumers that you want to with this app? LAUREN: So I did follow a bit of an Uber approach, which is this idea of a soft launch. And the reason for that...so basically what we did was for the Freeze by Co side of our business, so for women who are interested in freezing, they have the option to join our split program where they donate half to intended parents and do it for free. Or they can join our Keep Program, where they freeze their eggs but keep 100% of the eggs for themselves. And we help do that along the way. However, basically, we couldn't launch Family by Co to help people find donors until we had donors. So it made sense to launch the Freeze by Co side of our business first. And I wanted the ability to market to them when we didn't have the eyes of the whole industry on us, or we didn't have tons and tons of consumers reading our press or things like that just yet. And so by soft launching with a quick beta Squarespace page, we were able to test our hypothesis, test our messaging, test our funnel, test our experience before really putting a ton of marketing spend behind it or having a ton of visibility into what we were doing. And I'm so, so grateful we did that. It led us, like, we went through probably five different versions of our funnel before we got to our public launch, and our soft launch really afforded us the opportunity to do that. So by the time we turned on the Family by Co side of our business, we already had over 50 donors on day one for them because we had already gotten these women through the funnel. VICTORIA: I love that. And that's something we talk a lot about with founders at thoughtbot is that idea of validating your product, and you talked about it with your Instagram poll that you did with influencers. And the way you're talking about your go-to-market strategy is that you wanted to make sure that even though you knew this is what you wanted to do, that you had the right approach and that you could create something that consumers actually wanted to buy and had trust in. LAUREN: Mm-hmm, totally. VICTORIA: You launched in October 2022. Are there any results post-launch that surprised you? LAUREN: I feel so grateful that our launch truly exceeded my expectations. So the interest from women in our programs has been overwhelming, like overwhelming in a good way. And then intended parents are thrilled about it. So we are making matches every day of these intended parents and these donors. And every time we make a match, I'm like, oh my God, it feels like Christmas morning. You're helping people find their path towards growing their family, and there's nothing that feels better than that. I don't think that feeling is ever going to go away, so I'm thrilled about it. But it doesn't mean that it's not hard. I think back to that analogy of like having a baby, you know, you launch this company. You hope it's received. You count ten fingers, ten toes, hope that it's received, hope that it's received. It is, but then you have the demand, and you have inbound on partnership opportunities, and you have managing the demand and handling the leads and things like that. And it's like so much more than you expect. It's like the same feeling of having a newborn of, like, [gasps] how are we going to do all this? Am I going to stay up all night to manage this? Or how do we handle what we're seeing? And so it's a lot, and figuring out what this new normal is is something that my team and I are working through every day. VICTORIA: What's wonderful is that the surprise feels even better than you thought it would. [laughs] LAUREN: Yes. VICTORIA: Wonderful. For myself, as I'm in my 30s and I'm married and, you know, I'm not thinking it about at some point in the future. But what advice do you think you want women to think about regarding their fertility at any age, like if you could talk to consumers directly like you are now? [laughs] LAUREN: Totally. Just that it's never too soon to ask those questions. And the information you need and should want is like inside your body but ready to be shared with you. So by having a consult with a fertility clinic, and that's something my team could help you with, you can learn about your prospects for having a baby and understanding how fertile you are. And just because, you know, they say, "Oh, as long as you're under a certain age, you shouldn't have a problem," doesn't mean that that's the case. One of my co-founders was 28 when she started trying to conceive and was completely blindsided that this was going to be a real struggle for her, and that breaks my heart. It doesn't need to be like that. If we're more proactive and we start asking these questions younger, then we can actually do something about it. So your fertility is really about your egg quantity and your egg quality, and both of those things are things that can be tested and measured. And I think I'm someone who loves data. And having that data, I think, can help enable you to make decisions about how you can best move forward, and for some, it might mean having a baby soon. For others, it might mean freezing your eggs. For others, it might be a waiting scenario. But that's something that you can make a more informed decision about if you have that data. VICTORIA: That makes a lot of sense. And I'll be sharing this episode with all of my friends and everything on Instagram as well. LAUREN: [laughs] VICTORIA: Great information to put out there. And what's on the horizon for you? What are the big challenges that you see coming up for Cofertility in the next months or year? LAUREN: I think really like scale is what we're focused on. So we've started making matches; it feels great. I want us to be prepared to do those at scale. We are seeing no slowdown in terms of people who are interested in this. And so, making sure that our team is ready and able to handle that demand is my absolute top priority. So I think scale is top of mind. I think making sure we're optimizing our experience for that is really important. So how do we make sure that everyone is having a magical, smooth experience, both through our digital experience but also if they're on the phone with someone from our team or if they're reading our materials at the fertility clinic? Like, how do we ensure that that's a great experience all around? VICTORIA: Right, that makes sense. And right now, is Cofertility specific to a certain location, or is it nationwide? LAUREN: Nationwide throughout the U.S. VICTORIA: Wonderful. And you yourself are based in California, right? LAUREN: Yes, I'm based in Los Angeles. And our team is fully remote, which has been a really exciting thing to do. We're in different time zones and have a lot of opportunity to visit people in different cities, which is nice. VICTORIA: Oh, that's great, yeah. How do you help build that culture remotely with a brand-new team? LAUREN: So, for us, I think we're very intentional about having team off sites at least twice a year. We also get together for different things like planning meetings or conferences that are really relevant to us. But I think part of it, too, is really around different touchpoints throughout the day. And we have a daily stand-up. We also are clear about which hours everyone sort of overlaps based on their time zones and making sure that people are available during those windows and then giving everyone flexibility otherwise in terms of when it makes the most sense to do their work, not being too prescriptive. And really, again, encouraging people to have a life outside work, I think, makes it so that we get the best out of our team. VICTORIA: Right, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we've got similar...at thoughtbot, we have in-person meetups once or twice a year and then go to different conferences and things together. And I think some people do miss a little bit of the office experience, but for the most part, everyone is happy to put it that way. [laughs] LAUREN: Yeah, it's definitely...I think for sure it has its pros and cons. I think what I love about it is that we're not limited with talent. Our team truly, like, [laughs] we have people...we have someone in Oakland, someone in Miami, someone in Charleston, someone in Boston, someone in New York City. Like, the fact that we're not limited because of geography feels great. And I admittedly really love the ability to see my daughter throughout the day and feel like I don't have to stress over how much time I'm spending commuting. So I can't see myself ever going back. VICTORIA: That's right, and LA is certainly a place to have a long commute. [laughter] And have you gotten any benefit out of local networking and community around Los Angeles or Southern California? LAUREN: Yes, absolutely. Even this Friday night, I'm going to a female founder dinner. I have something coming up in a couple of weeks with this group of women's health founders that I really love. It's so, so valuable to have people in your network that are both local and get the life that you're living while you're doing it. I think having people understand why your life is the way it is while you're building a company is really quite nice. So there are founder communities everywhere but seeking those out early is definitely helpful. VICTORIA: And then if you have a remote team, then each team member can have that local community, so you're 10x-ing. [laughs] LAUREN: Completely. VICTORIA: Yeah, wonderful. Is there anything else, anything that you think I should have asked you that I haven't asked yet? LAUREN: No. I think one thing I would encourage is when you're trying to figure out your go-to-market approach, what the strategy is going to be. I'm a big fan of getting everything really in slides. Get it in slides and bring in some people you trust. Talk to your advisors, talk to your investors, talk to your co-founders or your team and say, "Hey, these are the three ways this could go. Here are pros and cons of each one," and making a decision that way. I think when we try to do it where it's like all in someone's head, and you're not getting it out on paper with pros and cons, it can feel like a really, really hard decision. But when you see things on paper, and you're able to get the opinion of people you trust, everything is able to come to fruition much more quickly, and you can get to a decision faster. VICTORIA: Right. So you're probably really buzzing with ideas early on and finding ways to communicate those and get it so that you can practice talking about it to somebody else. Makes sense. LAUREN: Yeah. It's like, how do you socialize it? That's a great way to do it. VICTORIA: Yeah, well, wonderful. This has been a really enjoyable conversation. I appreciate you coming on the show so much, and thank you for sharing all about Cofertility with us. Any other final takeaways for our listeners? LAUREN: Thanks so much for having me. If you're interested at all in what we're doing or it would be helpful to connect, our website is cofertility.com. You can find me on Instagram at @laurenmakler, L-A-U-R-E-N-M-A-K-L-E-R. Happy to chat really about anything as it relates to building a company, or your fertility, or just questions you have in general. I would love to chat. VICTORIA: Thank you so much. And you can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thank you for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot, your expert strategy, design, development, and product management partner. We bring digital products from idea to success and teach you how because we care. Learn more at thoughtbot.com.

Enjoy this conversation with Paige Lankford, mother to Thomas Rhett, Kasey, Tyler, and grandmother to FIVE! Paige is delightful, leads her family with faith, and is a successful entrepreneur with Plexus. You'll love Jennifer's conversation with Paige as she shares stories about having Thomas Rhett at 19 years old, why she didn't want him to go into music, and the early days of the love story everyone is in love with… TR and Lauren… It's a great conversation, and we're so glad you're coming along to talk to Thomas Rhett's momma.Thank you to our generous Got It From My Momma podcast friends at BAREFACED, we have this discount code to use: www.barefaced.comUse MOMMA15 for 15% off your first purchase! TEXT a Skincare Specialist at 25169 for complimentary consults and to answer any skin questions.www.coatdefense.comInstagram @coat_defenseUse MOMMA15 for 15% off Got it From My Momma on the WEBwww.gotitfrommymomma.tvHost- Jennifer Vickery Smith@jvickerysmith on Instagram WATCH podcast episodes on YouTube @gotitfrommymommapodcast

Scott & Lauren (It's A Costume Dummy) Part 1 by Live 95.5

Scott & Lauren (It's A Costume Dummy) Part 2 by Live 95.5

“I hope I give you some hope.”All around, Lauren's stories are different. Her birthing journey includes Asherman's syndrome, infertility for over 10 years, two rounds of IVF treatments (each with only one viable embryo), a miscarriage, placenta accreta, and significant hemorrhaging after her first Cesarean delivery. Lauren miraculously got pregnant naturally with her second son. She was committed to having a VBAC even with her complicated medical history. When her water broke at 32 weeks, Lauren made her desires known loud and clear to every person who entered her birthing space that a Cesarean was not an option. Sure enough, Lauren was able to successfully VBAC with no signs of placenta accreta or hemorrhaging. After years of so much heartache and holding onto hope, Lauren was finally able to see one miracle unfold after another.Additional linksThe VBAC Link Community on FacebookHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. Meagan: Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening, whatever time it is where you are at, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Meagan and we have our friend, Lauren, today. You guys, she is currently in Vietnam and it is 4:10 a.m. where she is recording. I cannot believe that she is up and ready to record an episode. We are so grateful for her for being with us today. She has a lot of great things in her story, a lot of great things that sometimes we don't talk about or know of. There's a certain thing in her story where I hadn't even ever heard the word before until I saw it in her story. So I can't wait to dive into her story and have her tell more about all of the things about her story.Review of the WeekMeagan: Of course, we have a Review of the Week so I will read that and we will dive right in. This is from saraalbinger and she says, “One month ago, I had a successful VBAC induction just 18 months after a Cesarean section. I almost called to schedule a repeat on my due date because I was so scared. Then I found your podcast and listened to it for two days straight. It gave me the courage to go through with the induction and I am so glad I did. I hope more people find this as a resource.”She actually emailed us, which is awesome. Congratulations, Sara, on your VBAC. So happy for you. Like I said, she emailed. You can email us your reviews if you would like or if you have a moment, maybe push “pause” really quickly and jump onto your podcast whether it be Apple or Google Play, and leave us a review. We would really appreciate it and again, we always read one on the episodes, so your review might be next. Lauren's storyMeagan: Okay. Lauren, I'm so excited to have you. Seriously, I cannot believe that you are up. I don't know if I could get my tushy out of bed at 4:00 a.m. to record a podcast. I'm so grateful. Lauren: It is early. Meagan: Yes, it is so early. Oh my gosh. We just talked about it. You just had a baby not long ago, so you're not only up at 4:00 a.m. but probably sleep-deprived within those few hours that you did get to sleep. So seriously, thank you so much for being with us today.  Lauren: No problem, I'm excited to share my story. Meagan: Well, I'm excited to hear it. I would love to turn the time over to you. Share all of the amazing things. You have had such a journey that has led you here today. Lauren: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is a wonderful opportunity for me to go back and remember what has happened to me over the last couple of years. My story started, I feel like, way back when. I was a Montessori teacher and at that point, I knew exactly what I wanted out of my birth at the age of 18 or 19 years old. I wanted a water birth. I wanted all-natural and I wanted to have all my kids by the time I was 25. Anyways, that didn't happen. I got married. I got married when I had just turned 23. Kids did not happen right away. My 25th birthday was the most depressing birthday I've ever had. It turns out I was struggling with some infertility there. At that time, I had sought some, I don't know. I will tell you that I pondered on it and it just didn't feel right. The time to take care of our infertility didn't feel right, so we ended up moving our family abroad. My husband and I taught English abroad, then we came back to America. We just so happened to live in Boston. We had some contacts there, but we felt, I don't know the right word, we felt very inspired to move to Boston. We didn't start working on the family thing right away because you have to have insurance for that but on the east coast, they pay for infertility treatment. If you have insurance, it's covered. I didn't know that at the time. Meagan: That's amazing. For real?Lauren: Yes, for real.  Meagan: I need to tell my sister who just moved to Boston and is having fertility issues. Lauren: Oh my goodness. Yes, the insurance coverage is amazing. So then I started finding out about other people who had moved there just to get the insurance just to seek infertility treatment. Meagan: Wow, cool. Lauren: Yeah, it was amazing. Exactly. I feel like the right people were put in our path at the right time. They shared the doctors and I was like, “Okay, let me go to your doctor. Okay.” So then pieces started to fall into place to figure out, “What the heck is wrong with me?” I think it had been thirteen years at that point in time of not stopping from having children. Everything was the way it is. So I go and they do this huge check-up on me. My doctors just couldn't believe the long list of all the crap that was wrong with me especially because I was in my thirties.I ended up having what was called Asherman syndrome. It's adhesive. It's scar tissue and they can exist in the cervix or in the uterus. Mine was everywhere. I was 100% scarred over through my cervix and my uterus. It took multiple surgeries to try to remove it. It's called hysteroscopies. Here's the miracle here. Asherman syndrome is not well known. It's still, “Oh, hush-hush.” A lot of women hear the word “adhesive” and that's exactly what it is. It's the scar tissue that's in the uterus and it usually happens after D&C or if you've had a miscarriage, there's a percentage of women who scar over. There are specific doctors out there that will take care of it. One is in Boston and the other one lives in California. I got to see that very specialized doctor and that was just a huge miracle. I felt like I was being taken care of. So we went there and my scar tissue was just so severe. I'm pretty sure I still have it. It's something that doesn't really go away, but it was blocking my tubes. That, and we had a diminished ovarian reserve, so my eggs were like I was a 44-year-old woman. I think I was 32 at this time and going through all this. I'm like, “My eggs are old. I'm old.”Then they did a biopsy of my uterus. It showed that it was inactive.Meagan: What?Lauren: It was menopausal. I was like, “So I've gone through menopause and here I am.” It turns out that if you don't have a period for over a year, you're considered in menopause. I didn't realize that because I hadn't had one in seven years at this point. Meagan: Wow. I didn't even know that either. I mean, I didn't have a period but I have an IUD, so I'm guessing that's a little different, right? Lauren: Mhmm, yeah. Meagan: I didn't know that. Lauren: Yeah, I had no idea. I was learning so much so quickly. There were a lot of emotions. I cried and cried because I felt like my journey of having children was completely over. I had a very slim chance of having a baby and so I was like, “Okay. We're doing this. I'm jumping head-in.” So I jumped and with IVF, I had only one good embryo out of my first round. It ended up in a miscarriage. It was nonviable and it ended up that it had something wrong with the chromosomes in it. They did some testing. This is where I feel like, “Oh, I had this journey.” Here it comes now. With IVF, they watch you and so after my two-week wait, I had a positive test. Okay. Then, they watch it grow. Mine wasn't growing, so then I had my ultrasound. They were like, “Oh, this isn't right. There is no heartbeat. This doesn't even look right. Whatever.” I'm bawling my eyes out because it's really hard.They waited an extra week until I was seven weeks when I went in for my D&E. The doctor told me it was because of my Asherman's that it was going to cause a huge, big problem. So he goes in. He scoops it out. That's the way I like to think of it. He just scoops it out and he's done. Lo and behold, my HCG levels were still the same, if not going up. I was still feeling very sick. The next two or three days later, I'm like, “Something is really wrong. Something is really wrong.” I went back and they drew my blood. Come to find out, my levels are still going up. I'm like, “Something is wrong.” I went back to my Asherman syndrome doctor. They did an ultrasound and then they did an in-office, I was wide awake, hysteroscopy. They took little scissors and they tried to go in and take out what they could see. Meagan: What?! This is giving me chills right now thinking about going through that. Lauren: Uh-uh. It was so painful. Meagan: Oh my goodness.Lauren: It was so bad. I'm just bawling my eyes out on this table and they were like, “This is too much.” I was like, “Yeah. This is too much.” I was scheduled for surgery the next day and that's when I was told about my accreta. That teeny, tiny little sac had grown into my lining. Again, my Asherman's syndrome was worse than the first time I went, which is saying something. I had a few more surgeries after that one just to clean it up. It took a long time, a lot of hormone therapy, and a ton of estrogen to try to get my uterus back up and running. They called it “jump starting” because I was still not having periods. They were forcing them through medication. Anyway, it was just a crazy time of my life. The second round of IVF was maybe six to nine months later. Again, I only had one little embryo. It turned out to be my son. At the time, we didn't know the sex of our child until he was born, so it was a really fun surprise. I was so excited. Well, and surely hesitant because you are like, “Oh my goodness, is this going to stick? What's going to happen?” He stuck and he continued to grow. His percentile growths every ultrasound were still 13% and 15%, so I had a small baby. It always worried me. We got flagged for genetic testing. We got flagged and we got called. It was like, “You've got to come in right now. We've got to do this ultrasound.” The worry that comes over your face is like, “Oh my gosh.” You just start breaking down and immediately crying. We drove straight to the hospital to do a two-hour-long ultrasound of just laying on the table. They don't talk to you, by the way, in this clinic. They just look. They look. They look. They look, and then at the very end, they may say something or you have to go to your doctor and your doctor will tell you but the ultrasound tech does not say anything to you.So it's just nerve-wracking. We ended up seeing a genetic counselor right after who then gave us the results of, “Oh, it's not anything. You're fine.” You had a little bit of leakage that could have caused this. It's not Down syndrome. You're okay. I was like, “Whew.” So other than that, my pregnancy was pretty normal. We got a doula right away, super grateful for her, and then my baby just wouldn't turn. He wanted to be feet down. I don't know how to explain it. He just wanted to be breech. We were doing our birthing classes. I just remember the doula who was doing them was like, “Well,” I don't know I was probably at 30 weeks. She was like, “Oh, he should really be head down.” I'm like, “Really? At this point, he should really be?” She was like, “Yeah. You really need to get on it more.” I was like, “Okay, I need to get on it.” At that point, I was like, “Okay.” So my doula and I worked on Spinning Babies. I spent so much time upside down every day. I was on an ironing board. I was doing all of these things for Spinning Babies. You buy the stuff. All of the stuff, I bought it. It wasn't working, so then someone was like, “Okay, you should go to the acupuncturist and do this epoxy–”. I was like, “Okay.” So then I'm burning this thing on the outside of my pinky toe on my right foot for 20 minutes. Meagan: Mhmm. Bladder 06.Lauren: Yeah, but I'm very pregnant, so to bend over for 20 minutes to do one toe and to do 20 minutes on the other toe was excruciating. I did it every morning and every night. I was like, “Okay. This is a lot. I am very dedicated to spinning this baby.” That didn't work, so I started chiropractic. I started seeing a chiropractor during my last month of pregnancy. I saw her every other day, and then I started seeing her every day. Again, nothing, and then I just got this gut feeling. It was, “Your baby's going to be born the way he needs to be born. You just need to accept that and you need to go with it.” When that happened, it just clicked in my brain. I was like, “Okay. I can still have a birth plan for a Cesarean. I can still do this and that's okay.” But that switch when you have planned something and you believe in something so hard– to make that switch in your brain, it's so difficult. I still was holding hope that somehow this baby is going to flip. They wanted to try an inversion at 37 weeks. I was like, “No,” because they were like, “If you spin the baby in the hospital and it works, then you are having a baby. If it doesn't work, you are still having a baby.” I was like, “Oh, then I'm waiting.” I'm very grateful. So we went in on my scheduled day with my big, long list of everything I wanted for my Cesarean which was wonderful. My doctor was very supportive and she made sure everything on my list got crossed off. I got to completely watch my baby being born, the surgery, and everything which was really unique for me. I didn't realize I was going to get emotional about my little Oden. Anyway, I just remember laying there and having my surgery. My husband was right beside me and my doula was also in the room with her essential oils. He comes out and it was announced that he was a little boy. He gets cleaned up. My husband goes over. My husband gets to do skin-to-skin with him. It was such a beautiful birth. It's like, I don't regret it at all. I'm just like, “I did everything I could.” Once you see that little baby, he was just, oh wow. He was on my husband's chest and he was rooting and making rooting noises. My doctor and everyone in the room just stopped. They were like, “We've never seen this before.” We've never seen a baby come out Cesarean and literally be banging his head on a chest wanting the breast. I knew right away. I was like, “That's my baby. He's hungry. He knows where it's at.” My doula was really excited. So anyways, I remember at this point that my doctor mentioned something about blood. “Oh, there's a lot of blood,” but I was dismissive because I had this cute baby over here rooting. It wasn't even until after I was in recovery and I started breastfeeding that my doctor came in and told me that I had hemorrhaged. I had an MFM who specialized in accreta and percreta and all of these things because I was just so worried that if I had a seven-week sac that stuck to my uterus, then what is it going to look like at full-term? I had done all of this research and I was prepared to lose my uterus with this birth. It didn't happen. I just felt so blessed. I felt so blessed that I got to keep it and that my child was born at full term. I just remember, “I can't wait for baby number two.” Anyway, I enjoyed this birth so much and him so much. The hemorrhage only added to my list. I had forgotten about it until baby number two and then it starts adding on, right?Okay, miscarriage, baby number one, baby number two comes and I really wanted my VBAC. I don't necessarily– my pregnancy was baby number two. I had accepted a job that paid for my insurance and I was going to go back to my doctors, but I ended up getting pregnant before. I mentioned before that I stopped having periods sometime in my twenties and went through menopause. I had gotten the COVID vaccine and gotten both shots. After my second shot, 17 days later, I started the first period I had in years and years and years and years and years and years. I was so shocked. I had no idea what was happening to my body. I was like, “This can't be happening to me. This is so weird and so foreign to me.” I remember just calling my doctor like “What is going on?” She was like, “You are not the only woman to report this. It's okay, just go with it. Track it. Let's see if we can have a natural pregnancy. Let's see if you can get pregnant naturally.” I'm like, “Wow. This is insane.” So, in the third month, I was pregnant. I just couldn't believe it. Meagan: Wow. Lauren: I'm like, “But my eggs are crap.”Meagan: Wow, wow. Lauren: Yeah! I'm like, “My eggs are crap. Everything is crap, right?” She's like, “Lauren, we are just going to go with it.” I'm just like, “Okay. Just going with it.” So yeah. Third month, boom, and I was pregnant. And yeah, wow. But it started off–Meagan: I'm sure. Yeah. Lauren: You just don't believe it. After you've been through everything, you don't believe it. So I just couldn't believe it. I started having a lot of pain and this is where I was like, “I'm going to lose this baby.” I just had this gut feeling like something was really wrong. I ended up going to the emergency room the day I took a pregnancy test. I was going. I was like, “It had better not be ectopic. I need to make sure this is in the right place. There's something going on.” They're like, “You're not pregnant.” That's what they told me. I was like, “Okay.” This little, dinky hospital. They did a urine test and they told me I wasn't pregnant. I literally had to tell them, “Listen. I've been through infertility treatment and I know that you could do a blood test to tell me if I'm pregnant or not. Come on.” And so then they do a blood test but in the meantime, it's been an hour and I'm a mess. I am crying. I am just an emotional, crazy mess. They come back and they're like, “Oh yeah, your levels are 100, so most likely, you're going to lose this baby. It's very early.” They already put this on me. So then they gave me a doctor because I am new to this facility because, sorry. I had moved from Boston to Connecticut to work and buy a house during the pandemic. So I am in little Podunkville with Podunk doctors. There's nothing wrong with Podunk doctors, sorry! But it's just different when you go from downtown Boston, top-notch to country, okay?So we were there and he kept telling me that my levels weren't rising. They weren't doubling. They are supposed to double and they weren't. Baby wasn't growing and nothing was happening for two weeks. So they did an ultrasound, but no heartbeat, nothing. There was something there, but they were like, “Lauren, we will give you another week before we do something.” I'm just a mess. I'm a complete mess. They drew my blood again and my progesterone levels were decent, but my pregnancy hormone was just not growing.And so a week or two weeks went by, I can't remember. I had a heartbeat. I just remember feeling so relieved. I looked at the doctor. I was like, “I'm never going to see you again. I'm so sorry, but I'm never going to see you again. I'm going to go to the best of the best.” So I jumped right back to my MFM up in Boston. The first thing out of my mouth was, “Okay, I'm pregnant. Will you support me with a VBAC?” And she said, “Yes.” She said, “Yes, 100%.” This was the kicker. She was like, “But Lauren, you have to know that because of all your issues, we are aiming for a vaginal birth. You can't sit there and go, ‘I want it to be unmedicated.'” She was like, “What we are aiming for is a vaginal birth.”I was like, “Okay.” And then I go home, I'm like, “I want an unmedicated birth!” I'm like, “I don't care.”Meagan: You're like, “Joke's on you guys, I'm going to do that anyway.”Lauren: Yes, exactly. So my pregnancy is progressing. Baby is head down the whole entire time. I'm super excited. I remember at 28 weeks, I had this very distinct feeling come over me that I was going to have this baby early. I didn't know what that meant. So I was like, “Okay.” So around week 30, I started prepping my house. I bought all of the baby things, got baby things out, just little things like that. In the meantime, I'm teaching kindergarten, I'm still working full time. I still have a toddler now and I'm just resuming life.This is when I really started hitting hard on The VBAC Link. I was listening to every podcast every chance I got. I was listening on my lunch break just to prepare myself. I did a class with you guys. There was an OB that was there. I had a ton of questions that I got answered, so that was really wonderful. I just really appreciate this podcast being there. I feel like that's why I really want to share because it was just so helpful, but no one had anything like what I had gone through. I'm like, “Maybe that means something.” I'm like, “Am I crazy? Can I do this?” sort of a thing. Anyway, so I didn't feel very prepared. My 32-week doctor's appointment was on a Friday. I drove to Boston which was an hour and a half away from where I live. It was a devastating doctor's visit. My sweet little baby boy was not growing. I had what is called, I have it in here because I'm like, “What? I forget everything.” It was fetal growth restriction.Meagan: Was it IUGR? Intrauterine growth restriction?Lauren: Yeah, but they called it FGR here. It was like fetal growth restriction, yes. Meagan: FGR, fetal growth restriction, yeah. Lauren: Thank you for that. I forget all of the things. And so then I was like, “Okay. Tell me exactly what that means.” My baby was measuring in the 1st percentile. So then she goes back and she was like, “Well, he's barely been over a 10th percentile this whole time. He's always been very, very small.” He was in the 10th and the 13th. I was like, “Where do we need to be to get out of this?” She was like, “You have to be at 10% to not have this label.” I was like, “That's not going to happen, is it?” She was like, “No, I'm sorry.” And I'm like, “Oh man.”So at this point in time, I was like, “Okay.” I was visiting her every week. I had her visit plus I had a blood draw, plus I had an ultrasound, so now it was moving up to three visits a week and I was having to drive an hour and a half. I'm like, “This is not going to be sustainable. I cannot work full time and do this.” I had made all of my appointments for that next week. I go home that Friday and then Saturday morning at 3:00, my toddler wakes up and I go in to tend to him. A big thing about FGR was that I had to count my movements. I wasn't feeling my baby move because he was so small that there were times that I didn't feel pregnant. I was like, “This is really weird.” It was one of those times when I was up at 3:00 a.m. and I noticed that there were zero movements. I'm like, “Okay, maybe he's asleep.” So I spent time with my toddler, put him back to bed, go back to my room and I'm starting to feel him move. So then I start kick counting, kick counting, kick counting, and then my toddler gets up again. I'm like, “Oh my goodness, you've got to be kidding me.” He comes into my room. He wants to snuggle, so I let him in my bed and he's holding me. I'm holding him and my husband gets out of bed. He doesn't do that. Anyway, next thing I know, I just feel this gush between my legs and I'm like, “What the heck? I am not prepared for this. This is not okay.” We have Google in my home, so I was like, “Okay, Google. Broadcast.” I'm screaming at the top of my lungs, “My water just broke! You have to come right now!” My husband runs in and he's freaking out. I don't know. It was a really wacky picture in my mind. He has his arms and legs sprawled out like, “What's going on?” I'm like, “Take our son. Take our son and get me a cup because this is gushing out and I don't know what to do.” It was crazy. I started contracting, but they weren't painful at all. They were like Braxton Hicks. My belly was tightening and then it was just gushes of water. I was like, “This is so crazy.”So I immediately called my doctor. This was the part that made me nervous because here I am preparing for a VBAC and the doctor immediately said, “You need to get to the hospital right now. You will have a repeat Cesarean and we will get this baby out. Something is wrong.” Meagan: Whoa. Lauren: I immediately started crying. Yes. Meagan: Scary. So scary. Lauren: Oh, 100%. The good thing is that I had 40 minutes for someone to drive to be with my son to ponder, sit down, and try to process this. Meanwhile, I'm walking around the house with a cup between my legs trying to catch all the water that is coming out of me. My husband and I were talking back and forth like, “This is not anything I had ever ever ever thought of.” I'm like, “Okay. I'm going to go in. I'm going to have a VBAC.” And so we both agreed that we were going to be open to what the doctors were saying. “This a bunch of learning. We are on a learning curve now. This is not on our terms. It's on this baby's terms. We are now open-minded and learning.” It took us an hour and nine minutes to get to the hospital. We passed five policemen. One actually passed us. We were way speeding. We were easily doing 90-100 the whole way. No one pulled us over, thank goodness. It turned out to not be that much of an emergency. We got there and the first thing that they did was they took me back to confirm that I broke my water. I was like, “You guys can't see the stuff gushing out of me?” I'm like, “Is this not water?” They're like, “Well, it could be urine.” I was like, “No, no, no, no, no.” I know what urine is. This is not urine. They were laughing because I was like, “This is not pee, or else I have been continually peeing on myself for two and a half hours now.”And so anyway, I'm like, “Okay, whatever.” And then they were like, “Yes. Okay. This is the fluid.” They came to my room and they talked to me about everything. PPROM is what it's called. It's a premature rupture of membranes. Now, I was a PPROM. Meagan: Yeah. PROM is just premature rupture of membranes but PPROM is premature meaning that the baby is before 37 weeks. Lauren: Exactly. Meagan: Premature premature rupture of membranes. Lauren: It was happening way too early. And because I was 32 weeks, they weren't going to stop it, so I did not receive any magnesium or anything like that to stop it which I was kind of grateful for because after I read, I was like, “Oh, I don't want that in my body.” It burns like fire. But they did start me on penicillin and steroids and all of these things because they wanted the steroids for the baby's lungs. The penicillin was because the risk of infection goes significantly higher when you have PPROMd or when you have PROM'd early because now I'm just sitting there with open stuff and it's easier to get an infection.They refused to check me, which was nice. They would not check my cervix to see how dilated I was or anything like that, but I do remember at the very beginning, she guesstimated that I was about a 1, so it was nothing. And so I sat there. They were like, “You're being admitted to the hospital. You will be here until you have your baby. Since you are 32 weeks, we will induce you. If you get to 34 weeks, you will be induced and you will have your baby.” The reality was that they go through my chart and this is where my past kicked me in the butt. They were like, “Okay, you have a chance of accreta. You have hemorrhaged with your previous Cesarean. You have to put in your mind that most likely you are going to have another Cesarean.” I was like, “No, I'm not.” This whole entire time, I was like, “No, I'm not.” I was like, “No, I'm not. I'm having a VBAC and that's it.” I kept telling every doctor that came into my room. I was like, “Listen, I'm having a VBAC.” I was like, “I'm having a VBAC. It's happening, so I don't even want to discuss another Cesarean unless it really gets to that point. I don't want to discuss it.” I was like, “I want to discuss how I can have this baby vaginally. That's what I want.” They were very supportive. I'm just so grateful and they were just like, “Yeah. Okay. This is awesome. This woman has opinions.” And so every new resident– I was at Brigham and Women's Hospital. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that.Meagan: You can totally share. You can totally share. Lauren: Okay. Okay, so it's a learning hospital. You have a lot of residents and interns. I don't know exactly what you call them all. Every morning, there were ten doctors that would visit my room a few times a day. It was a lot of doctors. Anyway, so Wednesday comes and before that, they were like, “Okay, listen. You're either going to have this baby within 48 hours or it's going to be a week or two. It's either one or the other. We don't really have people in the middle.”Guess what? I was in the middle, so whatever. Meagan: Way to be different.Lauren: Right? All around, I'm different. The thing that really worried me is that I was like, “Okay, I want a VBAC,” but at the same time, I had these NICU doctors who were right there on my case like, “Okay. Here are the chances of this. Here are the chances of this. Your baby might be dealing with all of these different things.” Anyway, they were updating me every day on where my baby's development was for that day and what could be possibly wrong with him when he was born. “Oh, by the way, our NICU is full. We don't have any beds. So if you go into labor, we will be transferring you to a different hospital with your child,” or however it works. I'm like, “What? Are you serious?” They're like, “Yep. We're full and so is the hospital next to us, so it will be the hospital down the street.” I'm like, “Oh wow. This is incredible.” Anyway, so right then and there, I started praying, “Okay. Listen to me. If I'm going to go into labor, it better be the day that someone gets sent home.” It's got to work out. It's got to work out. It did, by the way. It worked out. On Wednesday, I started to have more pain. It was like, “Okay. I'm still contracting by the way. I keep having what I call Braxton Hicks contractions because they were not painful. It was just that my whole belly would tighten and my water would continue to spew out. That's the best way I can say it. I remember distinctly that I woke up at 1:00 in the morning on Wednesday and I started having pain. I called my nurse right away and I was like “Listen, they shifted. My contractions have shifted now, but they are still 10-14 minutes apart.” We just kept an eye on it. In the meantime, every time I have a contraction, my baby's heart disappears. They can't find him. I'm like, “Okay. Baby, cut this out.” So when that happens, guess what they start talking about? They talk about a Cesarean. They're like, “Oh, Lauren. His heart rate is really dipping really low. We are going to end up. You need to prepare.” I'm like, “Nope. I'm not preparing.” And so I finally get up out of my bed. I've been in a bed this whole entire time. A friend came and visited me. It was 1:00 in the afternoon at this point. I was standing up during the whole visit which was the most I had stood in two or three days. I'm starting to have regular contractions. They were easy, 4-6 minutes apart, somewhere around there. They started being really painful and I had to breathe through them. I'm this way. I'm like, “Listen. I'm not going to call my nurse in here because she's just going to prepare me for a Cesarean.” So I go for an hour with my friend and my friend is like, “Lauren, you really need to call your nurse.” I'm like, “Fine. You leave. I'll call my nurse.” So I called my nurse and, sorry I'm laughing. She's freaking out because she is like, “Why didn't you call me?” I was like, “Listen, I didn't call you because I don't want to have a Cesarean.” They called the doctor. He guesstimates and he says I'm about a 1 or a 2. I haven't changed much. Now, they have increased and they're back to back. I could not. I was like, “What? A natural birth? I wanted that? That's crazy.” They wouldn't let me out of my bed because of the heart rate and everything that was going on with the baby, so I was stuck and confined to my bed. I was just holding the railing and turned to my side. Every contraction was worsened by a million because my nurse was like, “Listen, if you don't want a Cesarean, I have to find the heart rate of this baby.” And so she is literally, in the middle of my contractions, I'm screaming and she has got that monitor and she is searching for the baby's heart rate to prove that he is okay. This continues and she calls the doctor back in here because my contractions were literally on top of each other for 2-3 minutes. It was so intense. I really didn't feel like I had time to breathe. I was like, “Listen. I am having this baby. I am going to have this baby.” My doctor– he's not really my doctor. He's the resident of my doctor. He walks back in and he basically tells me to suck it up and that lots of moms go through this. I'm not having this baby. He will check me for real this time. So he goes in and I'm about 3 centimeters dilated, but I'm 90% effaced. He was like, “Oh. Hmm. This could change. We're going to send you to labor and delivery, but don't put it in your mind that you're having a baby today because this could stall.” He was like, “I've seen this stall so many times.” I was like, “How would this stall? I'm in so much pain.” He was like, “No. This could still stall.” I'm like, “Okay, whatever. I've PPROMd. I have no idea what I'm talking about. This is all new to me. Okay, fine. This can stall. This labor can stall, sure. Okay.”I am put in labor and delivery and my labor nurse looks at me. She was like, “You're going to be having this baby in a couple of hours. I don't know what your doctor is talking about.” She is bad-mouthing him so hard. She's like, “I don't know what he's talking about. This is insane.” She was like, “Listen, I know. I don't want you to be infected,” but she was like, “I am going to check you right now. There is no way that with the amount of pain you are in and your contractions are on top of each other.” She was like, “I'm going to check you. I'm going to call the anesthesiologist. We're going to get him in here. We're going to get you an epidural,” because I was in so much pain. Anyway, I can't believe it. This is where I'm like, “I wanted a natural birth?” So my anesthesiologist comes in right after my doctor had come in again to check me. He was like, “It's only been 30 minutes. Stop paging me.” Those were his exact words. “Stop paging me. It's only been 30 minutes.” And now, I've progressed to a 5. His eyes got really wide because before that, he yelled at my anesthesiologist, “You're not needed here. You need to leave. This is not happening,” like that. My nurse was like, “What?!”And then he checked me and he was like, “Umm, this is happening. I'm so sorry. Anesthesiologist, please come back in the room.” He's yelling, “Please come back into the room. Help her! This is happening and it's happening very, very fast.” They were like, “Where's your husband?” I was like, “Oh my gosh, my husband's not with me.” At this point, I'm panicking. He's not even with me.Meagan: Oh no!Lauren: Yeah and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I've got to call him right now.” They were like, “Call him.” So I call him. I was like, “Listen, I know I called you an hour ago and things were progressing slowly, but you have to be here now.” He was like, “Lauren, I've got an hour and a half.” I was like, “Permission to speed. Permission to put your cute little sports car to work. Go fast.” He was there in 45 minutes. He showed up. They were like, “Hold the baby.” There are the funniest things that you remember. It's like, “Okay.” My epidural half-worked. I was still having pain, but it was this weird floating area of, “I can feel pain on my left side, but not on my right side,” and so it was this weird state of where I was. I'm actually kind of grateful for it because I still got that natural birth feeling that I wanted. I still very much felt the ring of fire and the birth and at the same time, I feel like the hard contractions were taken away.So it was a nice in-between that I felt. But as soon as my husband got there, my labor nurse was like, “Listen, Lauren. I just need to tell you that because of your long list,” here it comes again, “because of this long list, you might end up with a Cesarean. I want you to know that they are preparing for it.” This time now, I'm uncontrollably crying because this is not what I wanted. She was like, “I need to also tell you something else.” I was like, “What?” She was like, “There are going to be probably 12-15 people in this room as you give birth.” I was like, “What? How many people?”Meagan: Why? Why so many people?Lauren: Exactly, because it was a learning hospital. Meagan: Oh, okay. Lauren: My doctor had his two doctors and my labor nurse had three assistants, and then I had the NICU team for the baby, and that's what it was. So I had the NICU doctor plus his three assistants or residents, and then they brought people in to watch me have this VBAC after accreta and after hemorrhaging. I wanted to be fully present for this birth. I told the nurse, “I want to grab my baby and I want to pull my baby out. That's what I want. I want to pull him out. I want him out on my chest.” They were like, “Lauren, the realization of that happening– if he cries, sure. If he doesn't cry, we are so sorry. We have to take him. We have to.” I'm praying. Long story short, the baby comes straight out. I mean, he's 4 pounds. They estimated him to be 3 pounds, but he was 4 pounds. He comes out. I got to watch the whole thing with the mirror. I had one of those resident people taking pictures the whole time, so I got really good pictures of my birth and here he is. He's screaming, so he has healthy lungs. I was just so happy that he had healthy lungs. I was like, “Okay. We're good.” Anyway, I got to hold him for about one minute while we did delayed cord clamping, and then I had to hand him over. I didn't get to see him again for hours and hours which was really hard, but I had done it. I had done it and I had my VBAC. It was successful. I'm just so grateful through my whole entire story that it had gone the way I really wanted it to go. I feel like I was prepared for so many things. Right after he was born, they were like, “Okay, the placenta is not stuck, Lauren. There's no accreta. Check. Lauren, you're not hemorrhaging. Check. Now, we just have to stitch you up.” I remember him taking way too long to stitch me up, but I just remember what I always wanted. I was able to jump out of my bed. The epidural got turned off and I was able to get up and start walking within an hour and a half. That's the whole reason for me. I want this vaginal birth, but I want to be present whereas, for my Cesarean, it took me almost a full 12-24 hours before I could really get out of my bed. It's just very different and I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful for the information that I received through this podcast to help me get the birth story that I wanted. I'm hoping that my story can help some of you out there that are listening that maybe struggle with infertility and any of the same things I did. I hope I give you some hope. Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. So many miracles in your story. So many miracles.Lauren: So many. Meagan: From moving to Boston and finding the doctor that you did find because that in itself, there are so few doctors out there who even know much about this, and then to go through all that you did to get pregnant and then trusting that, “Okay. This baby is just wanting to be this way and this is the journey.” And then again, not getting pregnant and what a crazy thing that all of a sudden, you are pregnant after months and then years!Lauren: Mhmm. They did a pathology. They did testing on my placenta to see why this all happened and why I PPROMd. It was because, I don't even know what they are called, but the placenta has the phalanges that attach to the uterus and it pumps the vitamins and nutrients in. Mine were scarred over and adhesive. They had adhesives and they were swollen. He wasn't getting the proper nutrition that he needed, which was why he came early. I can't help but think, “Oh, maybe that's my Asherman's.” They tell me it's because of COVID because I had COVID.Meagan: That's another question I was going to ask. Have you had COVID? From what I have heard, even the vaccine, which is interesting how yours is linked to the opposite with starting your period. They are saying that COVID vaccines are related to changing cycles and things like that. But sometimes, if they get the vaccine, then they go into premature labor. We've been seeing a lot of people get COVID and then their placentas are just like, “Hey, I'm done,” and they send the message to the body that they need to have a baby. I'm curious. Maybe it's a little bit of all of it. I don't know. COVID stuff is all a mystery. It's all very a fascinating thing.Lauren: Well, I'll tell you that the NICUs are definitely full. The doctors are definitely telling people that it's because of COVID that so many of these women are having early, premature births. Meagan: So interesting. How long before did you have COVID?Lauren: I had COVID at Christmas and I PPROM'd in late February. He was born on February 23rd. Meagan: Crazy, so a couple of months. Lauren: A month and a half-ish. Meagan: Yeah. Interesting. So interesting. Well, I am so grateful for you for getting up at not even dawn, for getting up in the middle of the night to share your beautiful stories with us. We are so happy for you and grateful for you. I will promise you this. You are going to touch someone out there. I know you will. Lauren: Thanks. I really appreciate that and again, thank you so much for having me. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan's bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

“I think that we're both better humans and better at life because of it,” Lauren Abney says of the Well/Behaved podcast that she co-founded with best friend Stephanie Biegel. And this is not an overstatement. As self-described connectors, they talk with a variety of experts from the wellness space about everything from astrology to tequila. In turn, those connections have since taken them on as brand advisors and consultants, creating a cycle of service and connection that benefits all involved as it continues to grow. In this way, they get to be a part of a world they would have otherwise been on the outside of. They get to build authority and be part of businesses they are interested in without the risk that comes with founding and running them. What's more, filling their cups through this passion project has made them both better at their full-time jobs. There is room for everyone in the ever-evolving podcast space. The best way to start is with a topic you are just as interested in talking about as you would want an audience to hear. Nothing has to be perfect, people want authenticity. Ask for help from friends who have started podcasts for advice (or at least tell them your plan so they can hold you accountable) or look for educational resources from Upsprout, Anchor, Almost 30, YouTube and Spotify. There is always a reason not to do something, but don't be afraid to jump in. The first step is the most difficult and also the most important. Go for it. Quotes • “The word ‘passion project' really is the right word. It's not a side hustle. (8:27-8:32 | Lauren) • “A lot of people talk about starting a podcast and they say it's easy. It's a lot of work, but it's such a special business in that it's always evolving and there's a ton of potential.” (6:24-6:37 | Stephanie) • “There's now this narrative that everybody has a podcast. Every business has a podcast, every celebrity has a podcast, but they all have their tequila, too. At the end of the day, I think there's space for everyone.” (7:42-7:53 | Lauren) • “It's not about a podcast having the most amount of social followers. People are leaning into the content.” (37:47-37:55 | Stephanie) Connect with Lauren Abney and Stephanie Biegel: Instagram | http://www.instagram.com/wellbehavedpodcast Listen to Well/Behaved here:| https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/well-behaved-podcast/id1481676172 Please don't forget to rate, comment, and subscribe to Dear FoundHer on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts! You can now work with Lindsay 1:1 to build and monetize your community through the same method she used to grow and scale her business. Fill out the form here and set up a FREE 30-minute consultation. Make sure you sign up for Lindsay's newsletter and have all of the takeaways from every podcast episode sent straight to your inbox. PLUS, you'll get a tip every week to help you grow and scale your own business. Don't forget to follow Lindsay on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lindsaypinchuk Use code FoundHer for 50% off your first month with both HiveCast and Fireside Podcast production and show notes provided by HiveCast.fm

Looking for love but constantly finding yourself in the same repetitive relationships that leave you heartbroken and searching for more? Lauren Zoeller, a Somatic Dating Coach, joins today's conversation to uncover why we find ourselves dating the same people and how to finally discover secure love. If you have any questions about this episode or want to get some of the resources we mentioned, head over to LesleyLogan.co/podcast. If you have any comments or questions about the Be It pod shoot us a message at beit@lesleylogan.co . And as always, if you're enjoying the show please share it with someone who you think would enjoy it as well. It is your continued support that will help us continue to help others. Thank you so much! Never miss another show by subscribing at LesleyLogan.co/subscribe.In this episode you will learn about:What is somatic experiencing and how does it play into relationships? The survival response to the loneliness How do you give and receive love & is it keeping you in unhealthy patterns? The energetic vibrational frequency of emotions and how it plays a role in attraction.3 pillars to break the dating cycle: recognizing the dysregulated nervous system patterns, healing the patterns, and manifestation. Understand how you self-sabotage.The peace found in not questioning life changes. BIOLauren Zoeller is a Somatic Relationship Expert, speaker and podcast host. She has achieved overwhelming success in helping high performing, female executives attract a dream relationship and a life they crave. She is the creator of The Aligned Love Experience™, a cutting edge coaching program that teaches female visionaries how to find aligned love and co-owner of SHIFT with Sanctuary™, an elevated inner circle for the 1% woman who is ready to step into sacred leadership, divine love, energetic longevity and her abundant legacy. Lauren's own story of overcoming deep shame has led her to advocate for women to own their story, use their voice and step into an aligned, vibrant life. She is now the President and CEO of the Balanced Boss Company, LLC, as well as the founder and host of The Aligned Love Podcast. Lauren has been featured in international publications such as Prevention, Shape, Business Insider, Total Beauty, Thrive Global, Goalcast, Money Inc., Healthline, Greatist and more.Episode References/Links:Follow Lauren on IGLauren's Website  If you enjoyed this episode, make sure and give us a five star rating and leave us a review on iTunes, Podcast Addict, Podchaser or Castbox.Be It Till You See It Podcast SurveyResourcesWatch the Be It Till You See It podcast on YouTube!Lesley Logan websiteBe It Till You See It PodcastOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley LoganOnline Pilates Classes by Lesley Logan on YouTubeProfitable PilatesSocial MediaInstagramFacebookLinkedInEpisode Transcript:Lesley Logan  Hey, Be It babe. How are you? Oh my goodness. Okay, so I have, she's just an amazing woman for you right now. So a really, really, this is going to be an episode, I really hope you share with all of your female friends, actually, you can share with your men friends, too. You can share with any friend who is you see them struggling to have just amazing conscious love, and be in relationships that you know, fully meet them and support them. And it's an it's mutual. And it's amazing. And you know, it's not not that like everything is about who you're with, because it's not that you have to love yourself. So even if you're like, "I don't want, I'm happily single, I don't want to be with anybody." You have to love you. And there are things that we were taught when we were younger, that really affect how we love ourselves and how we seek out love. And I really like you can't be it till you see it if you don't love yourself or if the love that you're in isn't fully supporting you. You just can't. If you are a married person and your love and life, I still want you to listen because I think there's some amazing things, some reminders, some confidence boosters, you're gonna get some ways to pat yourself on the back. And also, I know you got friends who need to hear this episode. So, I wanted to listen to it so you can give it to them. And then make sure that you're celebrating you. And you're being kind to you this week, I think, I think it'd be really easy to forget all that you've done, all that you do, and all that you are and only see the things that you're not doing things so well and what's not going right. And I just want to remind you that you're doing an amazing job, and you're an awesome, awesome person. And so now, here's Lauren Zoeller.Hey, Be It listener. What is up? I have Lauren Zoeller here and this girl and I had a like a zoom date because of mutual friends that we have both who've been on the show Amber Shaw and Tori Gordon, you have to go listen to their episodes. And it was really funny becuase one those days I was like, "Who is this call?" But I, like, "Who am I talking to today?" And she came on and we hit it off like kismet like friends from like another life. And I had to have her on because what she does in her life and what she does in her business is something that I know every single person actually wants, they want they want, you want to feel loved, you want to feel like you're seen and you're important, and you're heard. And so anyways, I can't wait for you to meet her. And so here she is Lauren, can you tell everyone who you are and what you're up to these days?Lauren Zoeller  I sure can. I'm so excited to be here. So for those of you who are listening and haven't met me, my name is Lauren Zoeller. I am a dating and somatic dating and relationship expert. So I really help women and men find conscious partnership and find a way to actually keep it when they do find it. So I work all with the nervous system and how we have all of these patterns that we have been recreating since childhood and they are stuck in our body. And they actually keep us from finding that sense of deep, deep love that we yearn for. (Lesley: Okay) So that's a little bit what I do.Lesley Logan  Okay, I love all this dating and relationship coach, I think that people are like, yep, understand, you know, got that. The somatic part that you mean, like do a little deep dive into what that is? And then also I can't I really do want to make sure we talk about like the keeping it part because a lot of people are good at getting the date. And it's ... (Lauren: It's like keeping it.) Yeah.Lauren Zoeller  Yeah, yeah. So I am trained in somatic experiencing, which is looking at the nervous system and the way that the nervous system holds on to trauma in the body, and how that trapped trauma keeps us from deep love for ourselves and deep love for others. So somatic experiencing is just, it's therapy of the soma, which is therapy of the body. So so often, we'll go to therapy, and we'll do a lot of cognitive work. So we'll do CBT, we'll do brain spotting, we'll do EMDR. And it's very cognitive, which means you can look at a pattern, or you can look at something toxic. And you can say, I know that this isn't good for me. But your body has a different story. And even though your brain can label something as toxic if your body experienced trauma, which we can talk about trauma and the actual definition of trauma here in just a minute. But if it's if it experiences trauma over an extended period of time, your body goes into a survival pattern. And it will seek out that survival pattern over and over. Even if your brain is saying wait a second, this isn't right. Your nervous system will take over and hijack your brain. So if we're not looking at the body. And if we're not looking at the nervous system, which is what somatic experiencing does. This is why we continue to create patterns. And we don't, we can never find a way out ...Because this is like ... (Lauren: we aren't looking at the body) you keep dating the same person. Yeah. So sorry. You keep dating the same person. (Lauren: Yeah) Like it's like when you're like you keep I know, this is the wrong person, man, just keep doing it. It's like like, and you get frustrated with yourself like you think it's you like there's something wrong with your brain, or there's no one with you. And it's really that you just actually have to release that trauma from the body so that you can experience what your brain knows at once.Exactly, exactly. And I, the example that I give all the time, and most women can relate to this because they've been in this position at one point in their life. It's the man or woman that you know, is so bad for you. Like it's one that you gossip with your girlfriends about. And you're like, "Oh, I know that this person is horrible for me." But yet, it's Friday night, and you're lonely. And you're feeling a little down on yourself. The next thing you know you wake up in their bed Saturday morning. (Lesley and Lauren laughs) Right. (Lesley: Yeah. Yep, did that.) I know. We all did. We all did. And we'll continue to do it if we don't look at the way that the body holds on to that need for someone else to fill that wholeness inside of ourselves. And it comes down to a survival response. It's actually a trauma pattern. So the body but the brain knows it's wrong, that the body hijacks the brain and sends you to his bed because you need that hit. You need that high. Your nervous system needs that high. So,Lesley Logan  Yeah, that's yeah, so fascinating. And took me down memory lane a little bit. So, (Lesley and Lauren laughs) I tell the story because we brought when people asked like, you know, like, how did I meet Brad and it kind of goes back to like this one time that I was sitting on this couch, in this house that was my house with this partner that I was with for five years, and I'm looking at this 80 inch screen TV, 80 inches y'all, it's freaking huge. And the living room was one of those long living rooms. But the way the couch was the TV was on the short side. So like you're like in the screen and it was like 180 degrees of windows in this house. It was like beautiful views, but it's 111 degrees. So you're like a lizard in a terrarium.. So, I'm laying on the towel on a leather couch. It's not mine, looking at an 80 inch stream TV. Watching, He's Just Not That Into You. And I'm like, "I don't think he's that into me." And it was this weird moment. And then I was like, "Am I into him? Like, what are we doing here? What is happening?" And it was weird thing and I, I didn't. So my brain figured it out. And I left but it took, it took a lot of therapy and a lot of stuff to get to where I could like, "Stay away." I had to, I had to, like (Lauren: Yeah) literally go homeless so that I would not live there. Because like, if I live here, I'm gonna end up staying in this relationship.Yeah, yeah. And so in your body is conditioned. Right. And it's, it's used to finding that safety, in that chaos of this person that isn't able to fully commit to you. It's like we our bodies, we call it chaos, and we call it toxic. But it's actually extremely brilliant. It's our body's way of keeping us safe. But it's a false sense of safety. (Lesley: Yeah.) Right. It's not security and it's not, it's not this stable relationship that you're really yearning for. It's this false sense of safety that your body's seeking. But yet, it's not what you actually desire for yourself.Yeah, yeah. So okay, how did you get into doing this? (Lauren and Lesley laughs) Because I feel like that, that's not something that you're like, "When I grow up, I'm gonna, you know, be a somatic coach for relation..." Like you know what I mean, like, that's a lot (Lauren: Yeah) for a five year old. So like, what, what started, what started you on this journey?Lauren Zoeller  Well, to put it nicely, it was my train wreck of a dating history is really what led me here. But it was so much more than that. And I'll give you kind of the cliff notes version. But I had been, I started coaching about eight and a half years ago. And when I made my way into the coaching world, I was working with other coaches and entrepreneurs, helping them build and scale their businesses with heart. I had this, this company, and I do that kind of like weird voice because it was just my pitch line, right. And I had this company and this program called Balanced Boss Academy. And I had The Balanced Boss Podcast, and I had this whole business that was built around how to balance your entrepreneur life with living an actual life, right? And it looked like if you follow me on social media, it looked like I had the best life in the world, like on the outside, looked like I was traveling the world, I had this perfect relationship with this man who was this big to do man in Nashville looked like I had these incredible friends. It looked like had the picture perfect life. And what people didn't understand was that on the inside, I was actually a complete train wreck, complete train wreck. And my breakdown, and my rock bottom moment came. It was one day. And it all happened, like everything came crashing down and in less than 24 hours, and I, it consisted of three phone calls. I woke up on Saturday morning, and the first phone call that I received was from my boyfriend at the time, I had been dating for two years from his mother. She was calling to let me know that he was going to rehab for the sixth time in one year.Lesley Logan  Oh, my God. How ... (Lauren: Yeah ...)how did he have the time or to do that six times?Lauren Zoeller  Right. Right. Right. And everybody thought that we had this perfect relationship and nobody knew. Right? Nobody knew that he was an alcoholic. So it was a whole facade in and of itself. The second call that I received was from my accountant, who told me that we were $30,000 in the red. And he was dropping me as a client because he had no, he was like, "I have no idea. Like your business model isn't sustainable. I have to drop you as a client, because I don't know how you're gonna pay this."Lesley Logan  Oh, my gosh, what a jerk? (Lesley: Right) Could have told you before you're 30,000 in the red.Lauren Zoeller  $10 of the halt, right. So that was call number two, and then call number three and mind you this happened within a 24 hour span. Call number three was from my doctor telling me that I potentially had cancer. They had a biopsy that came back that was cancerous. (Lesley: no) So in a matter of 24 hours, this complete facade that I was trying to uphold, came crashing down. I had no relationship. I had no business really. (Lesley: Yeah) My health was in the shitter (Lesley: Yeah) and I I didn't know what to do. I was like, what? Excuse my language but like, "What the hell? I am a coach. I'm, like, immersed in all this mindset work. And I'm doing all this therapy. And I was positioning myself as this expert that could help people balanced life and work. And I couldn't do it." (Lesley: Yeah.) So I started looking for answers. And I started digging around and really getting real with myself, like, "What is going on? Like, what are these patterns that keep showing up?" And that is when I stumbled into my first somatic session with a somatic therapist. I found somatic therapy, I had a friend that had told me about it. And it was the missing piece for me. So I started to unravel and understand that even though I was just like I spoke about, I was able to recognize that things weren't right in my life. My body was telling me a different story, and I wasn't trained in how to listen to it. (Lesley: Yeah.) So somatic experiencing opened everything for me. And the result, after years of working with it, with a trained somatic therapist, and doing a lot of reparenting work, and a lot of the work that I now lead women through. The result of it was I realigned my business and went from $30,000 in debt to making 30k in one month. I found an aligned partner, who was a dream, who was not addicted to anything, and was secure. (Lauren and Lesley laughs) I realigned my business and helping and serving in a way that truly was in alignment with my heart. And I eliminated the cancer scare, which was pretty amazing.Lesley Logan  That's amazing. I know everyone's like, (Lauren: completely limited ...) "What happened at the quest?"Lauren Zoeller  How, how, yeah, yeah. Like it just, it went away. And then I found amazing, amazing women that just started to kind of fall into my life like you, and Amber, and Tori, and Carrie, and just this really supportive, fantastic group of women and friends that are everything that I always wanted, I really stepped into alignment. So it was the missing piece for me.Lesley Logan  So, thank you for sharing that whole story because I think that people go, "Oh, she went from a coach to being a somatic coach, there's just a certification." And like, really, like, all and also, so many people are like, "Oh, my God, I'm so sorry, that happened to you." And it's probably and you're probably like, I don't know, for me, I'm like, I'm so happy that happened to you. Because like, (Lauren: Yeah) you wouldn't be who you are right now, you wouldn't ... Like if only you lost was just the boyfriend, you probably would still be doing what you were doing. You know, like, if all your or if all you had was like just the debt, you probably would have kept the other two things like you or you wouldn't have put the things all together like it all had to come crashing down for you to actually go, "What am I going to do here?"Lauren Zoeller  Yeah, yeah. Well, because, and I think that this happens often with people when they get into the coaching business. It's like, "I want to be a coach." But they haven't really overcome a lot of what they need to overcome in order to properly coach someone through what they're going through. And so I really had a wake up call, I think you're absolutely right, I had to go through that complete rock bottom because I would have kept doing mindset work. I would have kept going to talk therapy, I would have just kept doing what everybody says to do. (Lesley: Yeah) But it wasn't getting me anywhere. So it's like it all had to come crashing down in order for that to realign.Lesley Logan  Yeah, and I, you know, like, if you're listening to this, and you're feeling like you're at your rock bottom, like I'm not like, I'm not like, I'm not saying I'm like, "Whoa, go you." But I am. But I think if you can accept that, and you look around you instead of going why is this happening? Like so if you're like, this has all happened to me, well is me. It's like, why is this happening? Like, go on that curious journey and, and try to figure it out. You, I mean, I didn't have a cancer scare. But I definitely like left the ex. And so I was homeless. And then a month later, I'm back to the house to pick up something. And when I was leaving, I totaled my car. (Lauren: Oh) So, I like head on collision. I had to call him to get me to the hospital, like all this stuff. And then I found out a week later the place that I rented space closed and I had no place to take my clients, which is like where a majority of my income came. And I was just like, "Okay, well, where are we going to live? And what are we going to drive and where are we going to work?" And all of it led me to like really figuring out like, what are like what are like, like, this is a fuck yes. This is what we're doing. (Lauren: Yeah) Ditch like, I'm not doing lukewarm things anymore. And so yeah, I think like, I am so grateful for that moment for me. And so when I hear about people, I see the other side. It's like that was like the best thing could have happened for you, you know. So okay because someone heard at the beginning when you're like and stay in these relationships. So what what is it about like, what is the thing where we can get into them, but then we can't always keep them and should we want to keep all of them like what's how do we decipher that too maybe that's like 17 questions, butLauren Zoeller  Yeah, well, it depends, right? It depends on what the dynamic was that you learned, either in past relationships or as a child in how you give and receive and hold onto love. Right. So I'm just going to give you kind of a high level example. If you were raised in chaos, as a child, if you had helicopter parents who were in and out, like, sometimes they were there, sometimes they weren't. Sometimes they showed you affection and love. Other times, they were just mad at you, because they were having a bad day. Right. And you have this inconsistency and emotional availability, then what we usually see is that as an adult, if chaos isn't present, if there's not fighting are really high highs and really low lows. You feel bored. You feel like relationship, like the relationship doesn't have any quote unquote, "passion." But it's only because and I say this all the time that children raised in chaos, are triggered by peace and safety. Right. So this is one example. There's so many different ways that trauma (Lesley: Yeah) can show up and recreate itself, right. But most of the time, the reason people can't hold on to secure love is because they feel like it lacks passion, or it's boring, and nine times out of 10, that's because you experienced chaos and your nervous system in printed that love equals chaos. And so when that chaos isn't present, your nervous system is used to that, to that chaos. And so you feel like it's boring, when in essence, it's actually not boring. It's just that you are used to chaos. So you run from relationship to relationships, and you can feel that high (Lesley: Yeah) all the time. Right.Lesley Logan  This is, this is so fascinating. I can think of like 17 friends on my whole life that like, I'm like, "Oh, that person needs to hear this. And this person needs hear this. My mom. Hi, mom." (Lesley laughs) And so um, so that's, that's amazing. Because what you're what you're saying as a coach is like, it's not just about us helping you find... And I think this is like relationship coaches that like find people to mate like I when I taught in LA and I had these in person clients, they were like, getting out of these dating coaches are those you know, I don't know what it's called anymore, but like just lunch and like then other people (Lauren: Yeah) like, set you up for the dates (Lauren: matchmakers ...) matchmakers that's it. (Lauren: Yeah.) But they're like, they're not able to actually help you keep the relationship going. And so what you're able to do is like, let's figure out what's going on inside of you. Let's unravel that, so that you can actually keep the person that you really did fall in love with for reals, that you're just (Lauren: Yeah) sabotaging not like on purpose, but because of what your patterns are that are imprinted in you. Lauren Zoeller  Exactly, exactly. And there's, and I don't usually get to this until I've worked with someone for a while. But if you follow Dr. Bruce Lipton, he talks all about energetic vibrational frequency of emotions. If you're living in a heightened trauma response for an extended period of time, chances are you're living in shame, anger, guilt, fear, which are lower vibrational frequency emotions, which means that if you've never looked at your childhood patterns and the way that you love and were taught how to give and receive love, and then there's a lot of shame and guilt, and fear and anger and sadness around the way that you receive love. If we look at Dr. Bruce Lipton's work, he says that every emotion has an energetic vibrational frequency associated with that. So, and this goes, this is kind of like leading into manifestation a little bit and (Lesley: Yeah) attraction a little bit. If you're not looking at those patterns, and you're not actively doing the work to understand them and heal them, then you're going to be vibrating at that energetic vibrational frequency, which means you're going to be attracting people who have your same wounds. Right. So if we just take away even all the patterns, and dissecting the patterns, and we just look at the emotions of associated with some of these trauma instances in our body, of course, you're not going to find secure love because you're vibrating at that state. And that's what you're going to attract because like, attracts like. (Lesley: Yeah) Right. So you got to be able to do the work so that you can also shift the way that you call people into your life, which is kind of a missing piece a lot of people don't talk about.Lesley Logan  Yeah, so you brought up manifestation and I think a lot of people go, "Oh, manifestation. Yeah, I thought about it. I wrote it down. I did the secret like you know, I put it in the universe." But I, I think that manifestation also can... can also, you can also manifest and also take some action and there can be, it can be a little bit more than this amorphous thing that we do. How does that work in your your work and how does that work in like relationships and attracting and bringing in the person that we want to have?Lauren Zoeller  Yeah. So I'm a firm believer that man... manifestation work, okay, an I want to put this because it's so, so deep. I teach manifestation work and I teach attraction work at the end of working with someone. It's actually the third pillar of my program and what I lead women through. The reason being is because in the first pillar, we understand your patterns. So we get really clear what are your patterns, we go back through your past relationship patterns, what I call your core stories of limitation, which are your trauma moments, your childhood and generational dynamics, it really clear on the dysregulated nervous system patterns that are present for you. And the second pillar, we heal them we go through a lot of somatic experiencing to shift your nervous system. The reason that I don't go over manifestation and attraction until the end is because if you are manifesting and you're putting out into the world what you want, and you're just letting it be, but you don't actually truly believe at your core level that you are worthy of receiving what you've asked for. You will sabotage what it is that you want. (Lesley: Hmm) That that sabotaging comes from your patterns. Right. (Lesley: Right.) So it's like if you haven't done that work, the re parenting work to understand how you self sabotage or how your nervous system is dysregulated it doesn't matter how many things we put out into the universe, you're gonna hijack those bad boys.Lesley Logan  Right. So it's possible that people are out there manifesting and then sabotaging every time the universe is like, "Here's the thing you wanted. Here's the thing that you wanted." (Lesley laughs)Lauren Zoeller  Yeah. Yeah. And, and you see that cycle of at least it was for me, like, you may manifest it, but it may go away as soon as it shows up. Right? You can't hold on to it, which is the same thing with love.Lesley Logan  Yeah. Oh, my goodness, it's so fascinating how all of this kind of works together. Because I feel like what you do, even if someone listen to this, it's like, "I've got the man I'm with or the person I'm with. The human I want to be with." But the other stuff isn't there. Like, it's like, okay, somehow you made that work. And we still have work to do (Lauren: Yeah) on these other areas. I feel like, I feel like, I don't know, maybe our life's work is just getting to know ourselves and re parenting. And then, and then trying to do the best we can with all of that information. So Lauren, you, you now have someone that like, great relationship, you're loving it, you're doing this job. How, you know, what were the was there any hesitancy when you're switching careers? And you're like, "Okay, this is what I'm going to do now?" Because I don't know, maybe it's just me and what I'm thinking but like, I always go, "What if like, but I failed at this. And so I won't be good." You know what I mean? Like the history of it, like kind of cloud what you think is your potential? Was it easy for you to make the switch? Was it hard for you? How did you like do that without holding yourself back?Lauren Zoeller  I would say that I switched. I mean, if we go back back, like before I even started coaching, I owned a yoga studio. And like I've had all I feel like I've had all these different lives prior to where I am now, which is crazy. And up until this shift, like up until really diving into and understanding somatic work, and stepping into dating and relationships. I was always hesitant. I was like, "Ah, I don't know if this is gonna work." Like the thing before it failed. And the thing before it failed and everything else failed. I always had this hesitancy and I will say this and I truly mean this from the bottom of my heart. Since doing this deeper somatic work and really understanding my worth and knowing me really deeply. I've never questioned it. It's the first time that I've never questioned it. It's just felt so right. And that doesn't mean that it's it hasn't shifted and changed and things haven't fallen apart and rebuilt themselves. But there's always just this deep knowing that I'm exactly where I need to be which has never been present before.Lesley Logan  That I totally understand. I totally because I think and maybe hesitancy isn't what I felt but like I felt like, "Who am I to do it?" I had questions like, "Is it gonna work? What if it doesn't work?" Like there's all these things and then and then I would kind of do it anyways but always holding myself back and playing smaller I think than I should like if (Lauren: Yeah) I look back they all worked out because it was supposed to but like I, I was like waiting for the like someone to deem it fine, you know ... (Lauren: Yeah) like say and you're you're doing a great job and you're doing a great job. And it wasn't until like my little my own rock bottom moment that I didn't question the apartment I chose. I didn't question like, this is where I'm gonna have my my clients. I didn't question when I met Brad. I was like, "I'm gonna married that man." He didn't have my phone number y'all and also was still married, so. But I was like, "No, we're gonna be married someday. I'll wait till he's ready." And I didn't question our move to Las Vegas either like those things. And so now when I questioned things, I'm like, "Why am I questioning this thing? What is what is it about this thing that I'm questioning?" Versus ... Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like a different (Lauren: Yeah) way of looking at it. It's more of a sign like, (Lauren: Yeah) what is this over here? Why are we looking at it as a distraction? Like, what is or do I have work to do? So thank you for sharing that because I, I think a lot of people listening to this, probably have done the same thing and all of this stuff. And then when they don't question it, they also are kind of like, well, then that's almost like, too, it's almost too easy. Like, (Lauren: Yeah) it should be harder than that. (Lauren: Yeah) There's a negotiation process I have to do. So (Lauren: Yeah) what so now you've made the switch. You're doing this, I know, you're in the process of moving and everything to what is it that you are kind of being it till you see it right now? Like, where are you going with, like, what's your next thing that you're trying to grow into?Lauren Zoeller  So I truly my life's work is to get this work into as many people's hands as possible. Truly, I want everyone to be able to experience deep, deep love from the space of a balanced nervous system from security. So, I am in the process now of writing a book. So my book will hopefully be out by this time next year, which is really exciting.Lesley Logan  Oh, my God, you're writing a book? Yes. Yes. This is amazing.Lauren Zoeller  Yes, yeah. So I'm very excited about that. And just continuing to spread the message. I have a program called The Aligned Love Collective that has been going strong now for almost two years. And we enroll 20 to 30 women in it every month. And it's changing lives. So it's just a matter of getting this message to more people and getting the book out and doing some speaking.Lesley Logan  Have you ever written a book before? Is this your first book? (Lauren: My first book.) That's amazing. I want to go back to the first book because I didn't know what I didn't know. And now I know. (Lesley an Lauren laughs) And now I know.Lauren Zoeller  That's what I hear from everybody.Lesley Logan  Yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh, we'll have to have you back when the book is done. We'll have to talk about the whole process and, and just let people know when it's out. Okay, we're gonna take a quick little break. We're gonna edit that out everyone. I don't know how this dog got in here. It's like he was he was called in. Yeah, he called it okay. We're gonna take a quick break, and then we're going to find out how you can hear about do your course and follow your podcasts in just a second.All right, Lauren, where can people find you, follow you, do the work with you? What do you got?Lauren Zoeller  So you can go to my website, laurenzoeller.com. I'm also most active on Instagram and TikTok. So you can follow me on Instagram at @laurenzoeller and on TikTok at @coachlaurenzoeller. And it'll give you if you go to the website and visit the Instagram will give you everything that you need ...Lesley Logan  Amazing. Amazing. Okay, we asked everybody how some BE IT tips. So bold, executable, intrinsic or targeted action steps they can take to be until they see it. So what do you have for us?Lauren Zoeller  So I my first tip would be if deep committed partnership is what you want to find. And I'm just giving this to you from a dating and relationship side of things. Look at the patterns that have shown up in your relationships and write them down. Why has every relationship ended? What is the common thread? And then go back and answer this question. How was I taught to give and receive love as a child? That's the first question. Second question is, what version of myself did I create to receive love from my parents? And use these two questions and compare them against the relationship patterns that you have found out and he will know so much about how you show up in relationships and use that as your jumping point to start to go deeper into yourself about what may need to shift and what may need to heal so that you can have deeper partnership.Lesley Logan  Oh, oh, I love this so much. I can't wait to hear what people discover. So you all how are you going to use these tips in your life? Lauren and I want to know. So screenshot this episode, tag us on Instagram and TikTok. I'm also on there. I'm being it until I see it on TikTok. That's where we're like that's my be at moment right now. I'm like, "I'm just gonna figure this out this elder millennial is showing up." (Lauren: I love it.) So how are you use this tag us, share it on on Instagram and wherever else you do so that other people can hear this especially if you are listening to this and you're like just love us and you're like happily married. Send this to your single friends that you are like so tired of the patterns that they're going through. If you truly love them you want them to have love like you do, then you send them this episode. You can just text it to them that way. It's going to be great. So thank you so much and until next time, Be It Till You See It.That's all I got for this episode of the Be It Till You See It podcast. One thing that would help both myself and future listeners is for you to rate the show and leave a review. And follow or subscribe for free wherever you listen to your podcasts. Also, make sure to introduce yourself over at the @be_it_pod on Instagram. I would love to know more about you. Share this episode with whoever you think needs to hear it. Help us and others BE IT TILL YOU SEE IT. Have an awesome day! 'Be It Till You See It' is a production of 'As The Crows Fly Media'. Brad Crowell  It's written produced, filmed and recorded by your host Lesley Logan and me, Brad Crowell. Our Associate Producer is Amanda Frattarelli. Lesley Logan  Kevin Perez at Disenyo handles all of our audio editing.Brad Crowell  Our theme music is by Ali at APEX Production Music. And our branding by designer and artist, Gianranco Cioffi. Lesley Logan  Special thanks to our designer Jaira Mandal for creating all of our visuals (which you can't see because this is a podcast) and our digital producer, Jay Pedroso for editing all videos each week so you can. Brad Crowell  And to Angelina Herico for transcribing each of our episodes so you can find them on our website. And, finally to Meridith Crowell for keeping us all on point and on time.Transcribed by https://otter.aiSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/be-it-till-you-see-it/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

“Going into any negotiation as a working parent…it's so important to remember that what you're asking for is not just for you in your personal life, but you're asking for essentially everyone,” explains Lauren Smith Brody, author of The Fifth Trimester. In today's episode of Problem Performers, Lauren discusses the role of accessible childcare and paid family leave in our overall economic recovery during the pandemic.  Lauren is passionate about supporting mothers as they return to work after giving birth. Her book and consultation firm are focused on revolutionizing workplace cultures to support new moms, who face enormous challenges in the form of insufficient paid family medical leave and lack of affordable childcare. Lauren explains that women rarely have access to the resources necessary to simultaneously parent and maintain their careers, and these benefits are especially elusive for hourly wage workers and BIPOC parents. She tells listeners that it is crucial for business leaders to talk openly about their own balance between work and family, even the hard parts, to help normalize it for their teams. Tune into this week's episode of Problem Performers for a candid (and hilarious) chat between Lauren Smith Brody and Rebecca Weaver about the challenges of being a postpartum professional, and the importance of making paid family medical leave the national standard. Learn about what you can do to advocate for paid leave and support new moms in the workplace – which ultimately benefits everyone, parents or not.   Quotes • “Some of the people who have made it to the top just do not feel comfortable being transparent about when they are doing things for their families, which is such an easy fix….Especially if they're in leadership, when they are visible about the things that they're doing to support their family life, that's doing their job well. Because they're actually helping retain people. They're helping people see that there's a path forward for them.” (13:41-14:10 | Lauren) • “We should all be in a ‘normal' here, nationally and I would say even globally, that supports the rights of parents and caregivers to earn a paycheck while also caring for their families.” (22:44-22:54 | Lauren) • “Going into any negotiation as a parent who is trying to find a way of working that will let them keep working, it's so important to remember that what you're asking for is not just for you in your personal life, but you're asking for essentially everyone. And so when say to you, ‘Well, I'd have to do it for everyone,' the answer to that is, ‘That's probably what's needed to make progress here and for us to stay competitive.'” (24:28-24:53 | Lauren) • “Eighty-two percent of the existing childcare spots available in our country before the pandemic are available now. Simultaneously 50% of America is in what is classified by the government as a childcare desert. Which means that you'd have to drive a certain number of miles or that childcare is so out of bounds expensive compared to what the average income is that it's inaccessible. And that is particularly true for people of color.” (25:56-26:32 | Lauren) • “It's important for managers and HR to really understand that if the childcare industry's recovery is going to be so much more delayed than every other industry, that those other industries don't just get to keep on recovering.” (27:44-27:58 | Lauren) • “I want HR and business owners and leadership to listen to this message: there will be no economic recovery without childcare support. Period. There just will not.” (29:02-29:16 | Rebecca) • “Until we have (federally mandated paid leave), what we have is a K shaped economic recovery. At the top leg of the K, people who had access are going to keep moving up. At the bottom leg of the K, the people who didn't have access are going to keep moving down. And those two end points of those two legs get further and further and further apart.” (37:19-37:36 | Lauren) • “Thirty-seven percent of people who are ‘voluntarily'…out of work right now, who could go back to work but are not…say that if they had access to paid family leave, they would come back into the workforce.” (39:30-39:50 | Lauren) • “Pay them better. Pay them a livable wage, so that they can pay for childcare or elder care to take care of the people they love. And if you can't pay them, then you don't have a viable business.” (40:43-40:55 | Lauren) • “You shouldn't have to fix the problem that you're in, but if you have one ounce of energy to do it, to speak up, to be a tiny bit more transparent than is comfortable for you, please do. Because there are a lot of people who don't have the ability to do that who are counting on you.” (44:22-44:36 | Lauren)   Links http://www.thefifthtrimester.com/  https://www.chamberofmothers.com/  Instagram: @thefifthtrimesteer  Twitter: @laurensbrody https://paidleaveforall.org/ Email your senator to push for paid leave with just a few clicks at https://paidleave.us/email-your-moc   Connect with a coach at https://www.hruprise.com/   Follow us on social media:  • Twitter: https://twitter.com/hruprise • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hruprise/ • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/HRuprise/ • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/hruprise/

Scott & Lauren (It's A Costume Dummy) Part 2 by Live 95.5

Scott & Lauren (It's A Costume Dummy) Part 1 by Live 95.5

About LaurenLauren Hasson is the Founder of DevelopHer, an award-winning career development platform that has empowered thousands of women in tech to get ahead, stand out, and earn more in their careers. She also works full-time on the frontlines of tech herself. By day, she is an accomplished software engineer at a leading Silicon Valley payments company where she is the architect of their voice payment system and messaging capabilities and is chiefly responsible for all of application security.Through DevelopHer, she's partnered with top tech companies like Google, Dell, Intuit, Armor, and more and has worked with top universities including Indiana and Tufts to bridge the gender gap in leadership, opportunity, and pay in tech for good. Additionally, she was invited to the United Nations to collaborate on the global EQUALS initiative to bridge the global gender divide in technology. Sought after across the globe for her insight and passionate voice, Lauren has started a movement that inspires women around the world to seek an understanding of their true value and to learn and continually grow.  Her work has been featured by industry-leading publications like IEEE Women in Engineering Magazine and Thrive Global and her ground-breaking platform has been recognized with fourteen prestigious awards for entrepreneurship, product innovation, diversity and leadership including the Women in IT Awards Silicon Valley Diversity Initiative of the Year Award, three Female Executive of the Year Awards, and recognition as a Finalist for the United Nations WSIS Stakeholder Prize.Links: DevelopHer: https://developher.com The DevelopHer Playbook: https://www.amazon.com/DevelopHer-Playbook-Simple-Advocate-Yourself-ebook/dp/B08SQM4P5J TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that?Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate: is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards, while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other, which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at Honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability, it's more than just hipster monitoring. Corey: You could build you go ahead and build your own coding and mapping notification system, but it takes time, and it sucks! Alternately, consider Courier, who is sponsoring this episode. They make it easy. You can call a single send API for all of your notifications and channels. You can control the complexity around routing, retries, and deliverability and simplify your notification sequences with automation rules. Visit courier.com today and get started for free. If you wind up talking to them, tell them I sent you and watch them wince—because everyone does when you bring up my name. Thats the glorious part of being me. Once again, you could build your own notification system but why on god's flat earth would you do that?Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. A somewhat recurring theme of this show has been the business of cloud, and that touches on a lot of different things. One thing I've generally cognizant of not doing is talking to folks who don't look like me and asking them questions like, “Oh, that's great, but let's ignore everything that you're doing, and instead talk about what it's like not to be a cis-gendered white dude in tech,” because that's crappy. Today, we're sort of deviating from that because my guest is Lauren Hasson, the founder of DevelopHer, which is a career development platform that empowers women in tech to get ahead. Lauren, thanks for joining me.Lauren: Thanks so much for having me, Corey.Corey: So, you're the founder of DevelopHer, and that is ‘develop-her' as in ‘she'. I'm not going to be as distinct on that pronunciation, so if you think I'm saying ‘developer' and it doesn't make intellectual sense, listener, that's what's going on. But you're also a speaker, you're an author, and you work on the front lines of tech yourself. That's a lot of stuff. What's your story?Lauren: Yeah, I do. So, I'm not only the founder-developer, but I'm just like many of your listeners: I work on the front lines of tech myself. I work remotely from my home in Dallas for a Silicon Valley payments company, where I'm the architect of our voice payment system, and I up until recently was chiefly responsible for all of application security. Yeah, and I do keep busy.Corey: It certainly seems like it. Let's go back to, I guess, the headline item here. You are the founder of DevelopHer, and one thing that always drives me a little nutty is when people take a glance at what I do and then try and tell the story, and then effectively mess the whole thing up. What is DevelopHer?Lauren: So, DevelopHer is what I wish I had ten years ago—or actually nine years ago. It's an empowerment platform that helps individual women—men, too—get ahead in their careers, earn more, and stand out. And part of my story, you know, I have the degrees from undergrad in electrical engineering and computer science, but I went a completely different direction after graduating. And at the end of the Great Recession, I found myself with no job with no technical skills, and I mean, no job prospects, at all. It was really, really bad, ugly crying on my couch bad, Corey.And I took a number of steps to get ahead and really relearn my tech skills, and I only got one offer to give myself a chance. It was a 90-days to prove myself, to get ahead, and teach myself iOS. And I remember it was one of the most terrifying things I've ever done. And within two years, I not only managed to survive that 90-day period and keep that job, but I had completely managed to thrive. My work had been featured in Apple's iOS7 keynote, I'd won the company-wide award at a national agency four times, I had won the SXSW international Hackathon, twice in a row.And then probably the pinnacle of it all is I was one of 100 tech innovators worldwide invited to attend the [UKG 00:03:41] Innovation Conference. And they flew me there on a private 747 jet, and it was just unreal. And so I founded DevelopHer because I needed this ten years ago, when I was at rock bottom, to figure out how to get ahead: how do I get into my career; how do I stand out? And of course, you know there's more to the story, but I also found out I was underpaid after achieving all of that, that a male peer was paid exactly what I was paid, with no credentials, despite all of the awards that I won. And I went out and learned to negotiate, and tripled my salary in two years, and turned around and said, “I'm going to teach other women—and men, too—how to get real change in their own life.”Corey: I love hearing stories where people discover that they're underpaid. I mean, it's a bittersweet moment because on the one hand it's, “Wait, you mean they've been taking advantage of me?” And you feel bad for people, but at the same time, you're sort of watching the blindfold fall away from their eyes of, “Yeah, but it's been this way, and now you know about it. And now you're in a position to potentially do something about it.” I gave a talk at a tech conference a few years back called “Weasel your Way to the Top: How to Handle a Job Interview” and it was a fun talk.I really enjoyed it, but what I discovered was after I'd given it I got some very direct feedback of, “That's a great talk and you give a lot of really useful advice. What if I don't look like you?” And I realized, “Oh, my God, I built this out of things that worked for me and I unconsciously built all of my own biases and all of my own privilege into that talk.” At which point I immediately stopped giving it until I could relaunch it as a separate talk with a friend of mine, Sonia Gupta, who does not look like me. And between the two of us, it became a much stronger, much better talk.Lauren: It's good that you understand what you were bringing to the table and how you can appeal to an even larger audience. And what I've done is really said, “Here's my experience as a woman in tech, and here's what's worked for me.” And what's been surprising is men have said, “Yeah, that's what I did.” Except for I put a woman in tech spin on it and… I mean, I knew it worked for me; I have more than quintupled my base salary—just my base salary alone—in nine years. And the results that women are getting from my programming—I had one woman who earned $80,000 more in a single negotiation, which tells me, one, she was really underpaid, but she didn't just get one offer at $80,000 more; she got at least two. I mean, that changed her life.And I think the lowest I've heard is, like, $30,000 difference change. I mean, this is, this is life-changing for a lot of women. And the scary thing is that it's not just, say it's $50,000 a year. Well, over ten years, that's half a million dollars. Over 20 years, that's a million, and that's not even interest and inflation and compounding going into that. So, that's a huge difference.Corey: It absolutely is. It's one of those things that continues to set people further and further back. One thing that I think California got very right is they've outlawed recently asking what someone's previous compensation was because, “Oh, we don't want to give someone too big of a raise,” is a way you perpetuate the systemic inequality. And that's something that I wish more employers would do.Lauren: It's huge. I know the women and proponents who had moved that forward; some of them are personal friends of mine, and it's huge. And that's actually something that I trained specifically for is how to handle difficult questions like, “How much are you currently making?” Which you can't legally get asked in California, although it still happens, so how do you handle it if you still get asked and you don't want to rule yourself out? Or even worse—which they still can ask—which is, “How much do you want to make?”And a lot of times, people get asked that before they know anything about the job. And they basically, if you give an answer upfront, you're negotiating against yourself. And so I tackle tough things like that head-on. And I'm very much an engineer at heart, so for me, it's very methodical; I prepare scripts in advance to handle the pushback that I'm going to get, to handle the difficult questions. Without a doubt, I know all of my numbers, and that's where I'm getting real results for women is by taking the methodical approach to it.Corey: So, I spent my 20s in crippling credit card debt, and I was extremely mercenary, as a result. This wasn't because of some grand lost vision or something. Nope. I had terrible financial habits. So, every decision I made in that period of my life was extraordinarily mercenary. I would leave jobs I enjoyed for a job I couldn't stand because it paid $10,000 more.And the thing that I picked up from all of this, especially now having been on the other side of that running a company myself, is I'm not suggesting at any point that people should make career decisions based upon where they can make the most money, but that should factor in. One thing we do here at The Duckbill Group, in every job posting we put up is we post the salary range for the position. And I want to be clear here, it is less than anyone here could make at one of the big tech unicorns or a very hot startup that's growing meteorically, and we're upfront about that. We know that if money is the thing you're after and that is the driving force behind what you're going for, great; I don't fault you for that.This might not be the best role for you and that's perfectly okay. I get it. But you absolutely should know what your market worth is so you can make that decision from a place of being informed, rather than being naive and later discovering that you were taken advantage of.Lauren: So, I want to unpack just a couple things. There's just so many gold nuggets in that. Number one, for any employer listening out there, that is such a great best practice, to post the range. You're going to attract the right candidates when you post the right range. The last thing you want is to get to the end of the process to find out that, hey, you guys were totally off, and all the time invested could have been avoided if you'd had some sort of expectation set, upfront.That said, that's actually where I start with my negotiation training. A lot of people think I start with the money and that it's all about the money. That's not where I start. The very first thing I train women, and the men who've taken it, too, on the course is, figure out what success looks like to you. And not just the number success, but what does your life look like? What does your lifestyle look like? What does it feel like? What kinds of things do you do? What kinds of things do you value?Money is one of those components, but it's not all. And here's the reason I did that: because at a certain point in my life, I only got out at—broke even out of debt, you know, within the last five years. That's how underpaid I was at the time. But then once I started climbing out of debt, I started realizing it's not all about money. And that's actually how I ended up in my dream position.I mean, I'm living out how I define success today. Could I be making a lot more money at a big tech unicorn? Yeah, I could. But I also have this incredible lifestyle; it's sustainable. I get on apps like Blind and other internet forums, and I hear just horror stories of people burning out and the toxic cultures they work with. I don't have that at all. I have something that I could easily do for the next 50 years of my life if I live that long.But it's not by accident that I'm in the role that I'm in right now. I actually took the time to figure out what success looks like to me, and so when this opportunity came along—and I was looking at it alongside other opportunities that honestly paid more, I recognized this opportunity for what it was because I'd put in the work up front to figure out what success looks like to me. And so that's why what you guys are saying, “Hey, it's a lifestyle that you guys are supporting and mission that you're joining that's so important.” And you need to know that and do that work up front.Corey: That's I think what it really comes down to is understanding that in many cases… in fact, I'm going to take that back—in all cases, there's an inherent adversarial nature to the discussions you have about compensation with your employer or your prospective employer. And I say ‘adversarial' not antagonistic because you are misaligned as far as the ultimate purpose of the conversation. I'm not going to paint myself as some saint here and say that, oh, I'm on the side of every person I'm negotiating against, trying to get them to take a salary that's less than they deserve. Because, first, although I view myself that I'm not in that position, you have to take that on faith from me, and I think that is too far of a bridge to cross. So, take even what I'm saying now from the position as someone who has a vested interest in the outcomes of that negotiation.I mean, we're not one of those unicorn startups; we can't outbid Netflix and we wouldn't even try to. We're one of those old-fashioned businesses that has taken no investment and we fund ourselves through the magic of revenue and profitability, which means we don't have a SoftBank-sized [laugh] war chest sitting in the bank that we can use to just hurl ridiculous money at people and see who pans out. Hiring has to be intentional and thoughtful because we're a very small team. And if you're looking for something that doesn't align with that, great; I certainly don't blame you. That isn't this, and that's okay, I'm not trying to hire everyone.And if it's not going to work out, why wouldn't we say that upfront to avoid trying to get to all the way at the end of a very expensive interview process—both in terms of time and investment and emotionally—only to figure out that we're worlds apart on comp, and it's never going to work.Lauren: A hundred percent agree. I mean, I've been through it on both ends, both as someone who is being hired and also as a hiring manager, and I understand it. And you need to find alignment, and that's what negotiation is all about is finding an alignment, finding something where everyone feels like they're winning in the situation. And I'm a big proponent—and this is going to go so counterculture—I think a lot of people overlook a lot of opportunities that are just golden nuggets. I think there's a lot of idol worship of the big tech companies.And don't get me wrong; I'm sure they pay really well, great opportunity for your career, but I think people are overlooking a lot of really great career opportunities to get experience, and responsibility, and have good pay and lifestyle. And I'm a big proponent and looking for those golden nuggets rather than shooting for one of the big tech unicorns.Corey: And other people are going to have a very different perspective on that, and that is absolutely okay. So, tell me a little bit more about what it is that DevelopHer does and how you go about doing it because it's one thing to say, “Oh, we help women figure out that they are being underpaid,” but there's a whole lot of questions that opens up because great. How do you do that?Lauren: I do a number of things. So, it's not all about pay either. Part of it's building your value, building your confidence, standing out, getting ahead. DevelopHer started, actually, as a podcast. Funny story; I wanted to solve the problem of, we need more technical women as visible leaders out there, and I said, “Where are the architects? Where are the CTOs? Where are the CSOs?”And I didn't think anyone would care about me. I mean, I'm not Sheryl Sandberg; I'm not [laugh] the CEO of Facebook. Who's going to listen to me? And then I was actually surprised when people cared about my own story, about coming back from being underpaid and then getting back into tech and figuring out how to stand out in such a short amount of time. And other women were saying, “Well, how did you do it?”And it wasn't just women; it was men, too, saying, “Hey, I also don't know how to effectively advocate for myself.” And then it was companies saying, “Hey, can you come in and help us build our internal bench, recruit more women to come work for us, and build our own women leaders?” And then I've started working with universities to help bridge the gap before it even starts. I partnered with major universities to license my program and train them, not only how do you negotiate for what you're worth, for your first salary, but also how do you come in and immediately make an impact and accelerate your career growth? And then, of course, I work with individual women.I've talked about I have a salary negotiation course that's won a couple awards for the work, the results that it's getting, but then I just recently wrote a book because I wanted to reach women and men at scale and help them really get ahead. And this was literally my playbook. It's called The DevelopHer Playbook. And it's, how did I break into tech? And then once I was in tech, how did I get ahead so quickly? And it's not rocket science. And that's what I'm working on is training other people do it. And look, I'm still learning; I'm still paving my own path forward in tech, myself.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Jellyfish. So, you're sitting in front of your office chair, bleary eyed, parked in front of a powerpoint and—oh my sweet feathery Jesus its the night before the board meeting, because of course it is! As you slot that crappy screenshot of traffic light colored excel tables into your deck, or sift through endless spreadsheets looking for just the right data set, have you ever wondered, why is it that sales and marketing get all this shiny, awesome analytics and inside tools? Whereas, engineering basically gets left with the dregs. Well, the founders of Jellyfish certainly did. That's why they created the Jellyfish Engineering Management Platform, but don't you dare call it JEMP! Designed to make it simple to analyze your engineering organization, Jellyfish ingests signals from your tech stack. Including JIRA, Git, and collaborative tools. Yes, depressing to think of those things as your tech stack but this is 2021. They use that to create a model that accurately reflects just how the breakdown of engineering work aligns with your wider business objectives. In other words, it translates from code into spreadsheet. When you have to explain what you're doing from an engineering perspective to people whose primary IDE is Microsoft Powerpoint, consider Jellyfish. Thats Jellyfish.co and tell them Corey sent you! Watch for the wince, thats my favorite part.Corey: I feel like no one really has a great plan for, “Oh, where are you going next in tech? Do you have this whole thing charted out?” “Of course not. I'm doing this fly by night, seat of my pants, if I'm being perfectly honest with you.” And it's hard to know where to go next.What's interesting to me is that you talk about helping people individually—generally women—through your program, but you also work directly with companies. And when you're talking about things like salary negotiation, I think a natural question that flows from that is, are there aspects of what you wind up talking to individuals about versus what you do when talking to companies that are in opposition to each other?Lauren: Yeah, so that's a great question. So, the answer is there are some progressive companies that have brought me in to do salary negotiation training. Complete candor, most companies aren't interested. It's my Zero-To-Hero DevelopHer Playbook program which is, how do you get ahead? How do you build your value, become an asset at the company?So, it's less focused on pay, but more how do you become more valuable, and get ahead and add more value to the company? And that's where I work with the individuals and the companies on that front.Corey: It does seem like it would be a difficult sell, in most enterprise scenarios, to get a company to pay someone to come in to teach their staff how to more effectively [laugh] negotiate their next raise. I love the vision.Lauren: It has happened. I also thought it was crazy, but it has happened. But no, most of my corporate clients say, “We not only want to encourage more women into tech, but we already have a lot of women who are already in our ranks, and we want to encourage them to really feel like they're empowered and to stand out and reach the next levels.” And that's my sweet spot for corporate.Corey: Somewhat recently, I was asked on a Twitter Spaces—which is like Clubhouse but somehow different and strange—did I think that the privilege that I brought to what I do had enabled me to do these things, being white, being a man, being cis-gendered—speaking English as my primary language was an interesting one that I hadn't heard contextualized like that before—and whether that had advantaged me as I went through these things? And I think it's impossible to say anything other than absolutely because it's easy to, on some level, take a step back and think, “Well, I've built this company, and this media platform, and the rest. And that wasn't given to me; I had to build it.” And that's absolutely true. I did have to build it, and it wasn't given to me.But as I was building it, the winds were at my back not against me. I was not surrounded by people who are telling me I couldn't do it. Every misstep I made wasn't questioned as, well, you sure you should be doing this thing that you're not really doing? It was very much a fail-forward. And if you think that applies to everyone, then you are grievously mistaken.Lauren: I think that's a healthy perspective, which is why I consider you one of developers in my strongest allies, the fact that you're willing to look at yourself and go, “What advantages did I have? And how might I need to adapt my messaging or my advice so that it's applicable to even more people?” But it's also something I've experienced myself. I mean, I set out to help women in tech because I'm in women in tech myself. And I was surprised by a couple of things.Number one, I was surprised that men were [laugh] asking me for advice as well. And individuals and medicine, and finance, and law, in business not even related to tech, but what I'm really proud of that I didn't set out to build because I didn't feel qualified, but I'm really glad that I've been able to serve is that there were three populations that I've been really able to serve, especially at the university level. Number one, international students who, you mentioned yourself, English might not be their first language, but they're not familiar with the US hiring and advancement and pay process, and I help normalize that. And that's something that I myself in the benefit of, having been born here in the US. People who, where English isn't their first language; you think it's hard enough to answer, “Why do you think you should be promoted?”Or, “How much do you think you should make for this role? What do you want?” In your first language? Try answering it in your third, right? And then when I'm really proud of is, especially at the university level, I've been really able to help students where they're first-generation college students, where they don't have a professional mentor within their immediate family.And providing them a roadmap—or actually, the playbook to how to get ahead and then how to advocate for yourself. And these were things that I didn't feel qualified to help, but these are the individuals who've ended up coming and utilizing my program, and finding a lot of benefit from that. And it made me realize that I'm doing something bigger than I even set out to do, and that is very meaningful to me.Corey: You mentioned that you give guidance on salary negotiation and career advancement to not just women, but also men, and not just people who are in tech, but people who are in other business areas as well. How does what you're advising people to do shift—if at all—from folks who are women working in tech?Lauren: So, that's the key is it really doesn't shift. What I'm teaching are fundamentals and, spoiler alert, I teach grounding yourself in data, and knowing your data, and taking the emotion out of the process, whether you're trying to get ahead, to stand out, to earn more. And I teach fundamentals, which is five-point process.Number one, you got to figure out what success looks like to you. I talked a little bit about that earlier, but it's foundational. I mean, I start with that because that alone changed my life. I would still be pursuing success today and not have reached it, but I'm living out how I defined success because I started there.Then you got to really know your worth. Absolutely without a doubt, know how much you're worth. And for me, this was transformational. I mean, eye-opening. Like you said earlier, the blindfold coming off. When I saw for a fact how much employers paid other people with my skill sets, it was a game-changer for me. And so I—without a shadow of a doubt, I use four different strategies, multiple resources in each strategy to know comprehensively how much I'm worth.And then I teach knowing your numbers. It's not an emotional thing; it's very much scientific, so I talked about knowing your key numbers, your target, your ask, and your walk away, and those are all very dependent on your employment and financial situation, so it's different from person to person. And then I talk about—and this is a little different than what other people teach—is I talk about finding leverage, what you uniquely bring to the table, or identifying companies where you uniquely add value, where you can either lock in an offer or negotiate a premium.And then I prepare. I prepare. Just like you prepare for an interview, I prepare for a negotiation, and if I'm asking for the right amount of money, I am going to be prepared for pushback and I want to be able to handle that, and I don't want to just know it on the fly; I want to have scripts and questions prepared to handle that pushback. I want to be prepared to answer some of the most difficult questions that you're going—get asked, like we talked about earlier.And then the final step is I practice over and over and over again, just like a sporting event. I am ready to go into action and get a great thing. So, those are the fundamentals. I've marketed to women in tech because I'm a woman in tech and we don't have enough women in tech, and women are 82 cents on the dollar in tech, but what I found is that doctors were using the same methodology. I wasn't marketing it to them. Lawyers, business people, finance people were using it because I was teaching such fundamentals.Corey: Taking it one step further, if someone is listening to this and starting to get a glimmering of the sense that they're not where they could be career-wise, either in terms of compensation, advancement, et cetera, what advice would you have for them as far as things to focus on first? Not to effectively extract the entire content of your course into podcast form, but where do they start?Lauren: Yeah. So, you start by investing in yourself and investing in the change that you want. And that first investment might be figuring out how much you're worth, you know, doing that research to figure out how much you're worth. And then going out and learning the skills. And look, I have a course, I have a book that you can use to get ahead; if I'm not the right fit, there are a ton of resources out there. The trick is to find the best fit for you.And my only regret as I look back over the last 10, 15 years of my career is that I didn't invest in myself sooner and that I didn't go out and figure out how much I was worth, and that I—when they said, “Well, you're just not there yet,” when I asked for more money, that I believed them. And that was on me that I didn't go out and go, “I wonder how much I'm worth?” And do the research. And then, I regret not hiring a career coach earlier. I wish I'd gotten back into tech sooner.And I wish that I had learned to negotiate and advocate for myself sooner. But my knack, Corey—and I believe things happen to me for a reason—is my special skills is I take things that were meant not necessarily intentionally to harm me, but things that hurt me, I learned from them, I turn it around in the best way possible, and then I teach and I create programs to help uplift other people. And that's my special skill set; that's sort of my mission and purpose in life, and now I'm just trying to really exploit it and make this into a big movement that impacts millions of lives.Corey: So, what's next for you? You've built this platform, you've put yourself out there, you've clearly made a dent in the direction that you're heading in. What's next?Lauren: [laugh]. I am looking to scale. I'm just like any company; I've really focused on delivering value proof of concept. What a lot of people don't realize is not only did I build DevelopHer in quote, “my spare time,” but I did this without any outside investors. I funded it at all myself, built it on my own sweat equity—Corey: [laugh]. That one resonates.Lauren: Yeah. [laugh]. I know you know what that feels like. And so for me, I'm focused on scale: bringing in more corporate partners; bringing in more university clients, to scale and bridge the gap before it even starts; and scaling and reaching more women and men and anyone who wants to figure out how to get ahead, stand out, and earn more. And so the next year, two years are really focused on scale.Corey: If people want to learn more about what you do, how you do it, or potentially look at improving their own situations, where can they find you?Lauren: I am online. Go to developher.com. I have resources for individuals; I have a book, which is a great, cost-effective way to learn a lot.I have an award-winning negotiation course that helps you go out and earn what you're truly worth, and I have a membership to connect with me and other like-minded individuals. If you're a company leader, I work with companies all the time to train their women—and men, too—to get ahead and build their value. And then also, I work with universities as well to help bridge the gender wage gap before it starts, and builds future leaders.Corey: And we will, of course, include links to that in the [show notes 00:27:55]. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Lauren: Corey, thank you so much for having me, and I really mean it. You know, Corey is a strong ally. We connected, and I am glad to count you as not only my own ally but an ally of DevelopHer.Corey: Well, thank you. That's incredibly touching to hear. I appreciate it.Lauren: I mean it.Corey: Thank you. Sometimes all you can say to a sincere compliment is, “Thank you.” Arguing it is an insult, and I'm not that bold. [laugh].Lauren: That's actually really good advice that I give women is, so many times, we cut down our own compliments. And so that's a great example right there, and it is not just women who sometimes I have a challenge with it; men, too. When someone gives you a compliment, just say, “Thank you.”Corey: Good advice for any age, in any era. Lauren Hasson, founder of DevelopHer, speaker, author, frontline engineer some days. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice and an insulting comment telling me that my company is never going to succeed if I don't attempt to outbid Netflix.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Story Surprise! With Anthony & Lauren.Oh no! Can you smell that? Someone here has BAD breath. It's not Anthony… It's not Lauren… It's Vlad! Join us as we show Vlad how to brush those germs away so that his fangs are bright, extra clean and pearly white! Take a listen…Story: ‘Vlad's Bad Breath' by Rory H. Mather & Jesus Lopez Song: ‘The Tooth Tooth Train' by Anthony & Lauren and Dominic WoodheadFind Lauren & Anthony @storysurpriseauYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/storysurpriseau Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/storysurpriseau Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/storysurpriseau Website: www.storysurprise.com.au Tangi Videos: https://tangi.co/p/storysurpriseau Tik Tok: www.tiktok.com/@storysurpriseau Join us for our live and interactive classes for kids! Jump & Jiggle: Exercise your body… and your imagination! www.jumpandjiggle.com.au Listen to Story Surprise daily on Little Rockers Radio at 11am and 5pm. www.littlerockersradio.com.au

This episode is part two of a mini-series focusing on the NEH-funded project "Toward a Pedagogy from Crisis.” Jolie is joined by Dr. Lauren Salisbury, a graduate of BGSU’s rhetoric and writing PhD program and an online instructor, and Dr. Matt Schumann, who has taught in the department of history. They served as "camp counselors" for a month-long summer program for humanities faculty on adaptive teaching and learning during the COVID-19 crisis. They discuss the importance of intentionality, reflexivity, and building community in virtual course design.    Announcer: The is BG Ideas. Musical Intro: I'm going to show you this with a wonderful experiment. Jolie: Hello and welcome back to the BiG Ideas podcast brought to you by the Institute for the Study of Culture and Society and the School of Media and Communication at Bowling Green State University. I'm Dr. Jolie Sheffer. Jolie: This episode is part of a miniseries focusing on a National Endowment for the Humanities sponsored project Toward a Pedagogy from Crisis: Adaptive Teaching and Learning at Bowling Green State University During COVID-19. Due to the ongoing pandemic, we're not in the studio but are recording from home via phone and computer. As always, the opinions expressed on this podcast or those of the individuals involved and do not necessarily represent those of BGSU or its employees. Jolie: Today, we are speaking with Dr. Lauren Salisbury and Dr. Matt Schumann. During summer 2020, they served as camp counselors for a month-long summer program for humanities faculty, which was a central component of the NEH-supported grant. Jolie: Lauren is a graduate of BGSU's Rhetoric and Writing PhD program and is an instructor in the department. Her research explores how space and place shapes student experiences in online courses. Matt has taught classes in our history department, receiving the Elliott Blinn Prize for Instructor/Student Basic Research for Innovative Design in his historiography course. He's also studied the scholarship of teaching and learning including how technology can be used effectively in humanities classrooms. Jolie: Lauren and Matt, thanks for joining me to talk about big ideas. I want to start with just giving a little background on the summer camp. The camp focused on humanistic pedagogy for digital environments. Can you explain who you were designing the camp for and some of the main goals you set for yourself and for your campers? Matt, you want to start that question off? Matt: Sure. I guess I'd like to start by saying we wanted to de-center technology just a little bit because the COVID crisis really forced a bigger conversation about our priorities and identities as instructors. What we really wanted to do was gather faculty from as broadly as we could across the humanities and have a conversation about, "Well, what does teaching look like in this strange new world that we're encountering in the midst of this pandemic?" Having that question really right at the center of our organization efforts for the summer camp, that really determined a lot about how we organized it and how we arranged our material. Jolie: For you, Lauren, a lot of times, when we are talking about and thinking about teaching online, we're talking about technology tools and using new tools. You made the choice not to explicitly center the camp around learning new technologies. Can you explain why not and what you felt was more important in this moment? Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. There's nothing to say that technology isn't important. We didn't want to say that at all. But, technology comes and goes. It evolves constantly. What was cutting edge last week, isn't this week. Although having those tools in our back pocket is really important, it's more important, as teachers, to start at the end goal. We wanted to give instructors the opportunity to really have a space to reflect on what their learning goals were for the course, for their students, and the goals they had for themselves as instructors this semester in this really unique situation we've all been put in, start there and then backtrack and learn about ways to go out and find those tools or find ways to make those goals happen, that was more what we wanted to put at the forefront, in the center of what we were doing in the summer camp. Jolie: That really leads to my next question, which is for you, Lauren, in that the camp really did emphasize reflexivity in course design as a tool for building community. This is something that has been interesting you for a long time. Can you talk about your background in rhetoric and writing and how you became interested in student experiences in online environments? Lauren: Yeah. I've been doing online teaching and learning scholarship for a very long time since my master's degree. It really was born out of my own frustration as a student, alongside my frustration as a graduate student who is trying to learn how to teach and didn't have a whole lot of experience using online tools from the teacher perspective. I had taken online classes quite a bit as an undergraduate, to varying degrees of success. From the instructor side of it, I didn't have a lot of experience. Lauren: I started digging into online learning and teaching scholarship a lot more, and realized that although a lot of the popular scholarship on online learning is about what instructors are doing, and, again, what technologies are being used or what influence technology has on teaching and learning, there wasn't as much from a student perspective. Anytime we get student perspective in online teaching and learning scholarship, it's typically from the idea of responding to what instructors are doing rather than speaking for themselves about what would be effective. I was really interested in seeing if we asked students from the beginning and say, "What working for you or what do you need in an online environment?", what kind of responses we would get and how students are experiencing those online learning environments that we're helping to curate and design. Jolie: Can you give an example of why something like a policy around using your camera is more than it seems to be? Because, on the surface, it sounds like, "Well, you want student engagement, so, of course, they should have their cameras on." Why is there more to the question than that? Lauren: Absolutely. I, 100 %, understand the desire. I'm teaching online synchronously this semester for the first time in a very long time. Technologies have changed a lot. Having the ability to see students' faces in a video format like a Zoom is great and, at the forefront, seems like a good idea. You get to see everybody's faces, see that they're engaged and participating. They get to see you and you don't feel like you're talking to yourself at your home office, but it can actually provide a lot of barriers for a wide variety of students. When you force your students to have their cameras and microphones on, although your goal might be to see if they're engaged, respond to them, what can actually happen is you're inserting yourself into their private space. Lauren: The majority of students, right now, are taking their online courses from either their residence, if they moved back home with their parents, or are living in an apartment off campus, or their dorm rooms. Those are very private places for us to suddenly be popping into and to have a full view of as well. Students are being forced to reveal things about themselves and their private home life that they wouldn't otherwise be asked to do. Likewise, students who are already in disadvantageous positions, students that have children at home, students that are caretakers for elderly parents or other folks in their families, people who have full-time jobs or who might need to multitask at the same time that they're taking their online course for whatever reason, they're suddenly laid bare in a way that they wouldn't otherwise be. Although the goal is great and I completely understand it as a person who has taught two 20 black screen boxes a couple times in the last few weeks, the risk and the thing that we're asking students to reveal there, to me, just isn't worth it. It becomes more of a surveillance tool than about effective teaching. Jolie: Matt, you are, by training, a historian of the 18th Century. You research the use of technology in classrooms. I'm pretty sure they didn't have digital technologies back then, unless you're referring to finger puppets. What inspired you to bring technology into your history classroom? Can you explain some of the challenges you faced and how you approach using digital technology to navigate those? Matt: Sure. Well, I'm glad, just right off the top, that you mentioned my specialty in the 18th Century. As a scholar of teaching and learning, I know there are a lot of my colleagues who will run right up to the present with the best pedagogy, the best techniques, the best and the latest scholarship. Honestly, my point of departure for even thinking about my educational philosophy was Edmund Burke in 1757 when he was honestly barely older than many of our students. He made a quip in the introduction to something that he was writing that, "Well, it's really great if you can teach me what you know, but I like it so much more if you can teach me how you know what you know." Matt: As a practicing historian, as much as I love digging around archives, and microfilms, and things like that, if I'm honest about my craft, much of it is online. It was really natural for me, if I wanted my students not just to know what I know but do what I do, to send them online. I had been doing this long before there was any talk of forcing online courses, or having a pandemic, or anything like that. It was much more about, "Well, what can I access digitally as a historical researcher and how much of this can I put in the hands of my students?" The more that I found that I could, and especially in recent years as more archives have gone online, libraries have gotten much better at putting their materials online, as just learning management systems like Canvas have become significantly, first of all, more standard but, second, more user-friendly, it's been that much easier to design courses, with students in mind, and be able to say to them, "Well, you're online anyway, you're using a number of tools that are familiar to you like Google. Can we put even more powerful, even more academically relevant material in your hands that helps you to replicate the process that I have or any of my colleagues have as well as scholars doing their scholarly thing?" Matt: One of the priorities that I have, as an instructor doing this, is, exactly as Lauren shared, really trying to be student-centered, really trying to ask students, "Well, okay, you're paying for this learning experience, you're enrolled in my class. What do you want out of it?" The second point of departure for me, beyond the young Edmund Burke, was the first student that I brought to a conference with me for a discussion on technology in the classroom, and that particular discussion centered on students insisting on bringing laptops and phones into the classroom, thinking that these were good educational tools and maybe finding out that they weren't so good. I asked this student, as he was a co-presenter of mine, "Well, why do you want to have your computer in the classroom? What is your priority? Why are you doing this?" He said to me, "What I really want out of my educational experience is I want you to teach me how to use my computer the way that you use your computer." This was a sophomore. For him to say that, echoing a 22-year-old Edmund Burke, only 260 odd years later, that just reaffirmed my approach to my courses. It became very much about designing that pedagogical, that learning experience for students so that they really could master the skills of their computers much more than any particular body of knowledge. Jolie: Yeah, that's so interesting because what you're really showing is that, so often, what we talk about is... from the faculty side, is there's your research and there's your teaching. Ne'er the twain shall meet, right? What you're showing is that actually it's not just that faculty members want their teaching to reflect their research interests, but actually students want to understand the processes by which faculty members learn and translate that knowledge into products, like an article or whatever it may be, and that laying bare those processes is actually a really effective pedagogical strategy. Matt: It is and this is something that I've experienced now in honestly three different modes of teaching the historiography class for Bowling Green's history department. I have told students that if they really want to join my project, researching the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle, they can and I can almost guarantee that they will sleep very well. On the other hand, they can replicate what I do with the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle for topics that honestly are much more interesting to them. I've been very pleasantly surprised by not only the variety of topics they've chosen but also the follow through and ultimately the quality of the products that they're coming up with. Jolie: One of the major areas of interest at the summer camp was on building a learning community online in a time of crisis. How have your past experiences with digital teaching methods prepared you for the current situation? Conversely, how has this crisis maybe challenged or shifted some of your thinking about creation of community online? Lauren, will you start us off with that question? Lauren: Sure. I think that, first of all, one of the most wonderful things about the summer camp was that there was this sense of community. It was very palpable that there was the sense of community in that space. Instructors automatically gleamed onto one another, and bolstered each other up, and were able to form the sense of community in a very short period of time because we were under a month that we spent together in that space. One of the things that was really wonderful about that community, which I think taught me more about forming community online, was that we all started from a place of vulnerability. Lauren: If there's anything we've learned in the last, how many months has it even been now, I don't even know anymore, seven, six months, that we're all very vulnerable right now in distinct, unique ways. We're all experiencing the pandemic, we're all experiencing the challenges of this year in unique ways, but we are all experiencing challenges. Lauren: Sharing that, right away, right from the beginning, felt very uncomfortable, I know, at the beginning for a lot of our participants to lay it out there, "Here were my failings, here were what felt particularly scary about moving online, here's what I don't feel like is going well," but that was what brought everybody together because we saw that we're all in that place. We're all having those feelings. Lauren: We're all having that experience of inadequacy, or fear, or just, "How are we going to the grocery store safely?" Those were conversations we honestly had in that space and that I continue to have with my students in our spaces as well, starting from places of vulnerability that understand we're all facing challenges right now. They're going to continue happening, that's not unique to the pandemic. Even whenever this is over and we can move back to our "normal lives", those challenges will still be there. Laying them out there right from the beginning and saying, "This is where I'm at, this is what I'm experiencing. Here's how it might affect what I'm bringing to this course or this summer camp," is really important. One of the things that I've done in my courses is have both a public and then a private one-on-one space where students can share those kinds of things. At the beginning of the semester, we do a typical get to to know each other discussion where they share just where they are right now, that's a unique space. Lauren: But then, I also have a private questionnaire that students answer, which is completely optional. I say that in about 12 different places and ways, that it's optional, but it asks them just about anything else they want me to know, that place of vulnerability, that place of mutual sharing has been just a wealth of community formation. Jolie: Thank you. What about for you, Matt? How have you been thinking about community? Matt: A lot of it... I feel like I'd like to reemphasize what Lauren said about almost having channels of communication open by design and also really, again, echoing Lauren, having ourselves as instructors really be, if not the center, then perhaps the anchor for the communities that our classes form. There are a couple of ways that I do that. We're in a Zoom session now and you can see that I'm broadcasting from my basement, right? This is the trial that I'm going through from the coronavirus chaos. Matt: I haven't formally lost my office at Bowling Green, but it's actually an hour drive away. My workspace now is half a desk in my basement, that's what I'm restricted to. I'm sharing that with my students as well and saying, "It's not just you that's been affected by this, it's really been everybody in the university community in one way or another, and it's important for us... as a community of learners, I might be a professional learner, you're the students maybe paying to learn, but we're still all learners here. It's important for us to recognize that this is a journey that we're all taking together." This is something that appears frequently in my course content as well. Matt: I joked about my project studying the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle. Very often, I'll joke with my students and tell them that there's no way that they're going to be interested in my topic. But, the way that they respond is that they'll say, "You're right. We're not particularly interested in the topic that you're studying." Matt: They're not going to care as much about Mid-18th Century diplomatic history, but what they do care about is that they see me not only demonstrating but actually going through the same process that I'm teaching them to go through. They see me get frustrated, and they see me asking myself questions, they see me losing confidence in parts of the process as well, and they see when I do well. I look, in some respects, like one of them. I try to open up formats for them to present to each other. I tell them, right at the top, and then they affirm this for each other, "If you're going to present in front of your peers," and I've set up opportunities for them to share screens with each other and share the products of their own research with each other... I tell them that upfront, "You will never have a more supportive audience for yourself, as a teacher, than your own peers." Then, they live this out teaching occasion, after teaching occasion, after teaching occasion. As they come to see me as an older peer, in a manner of speaking, they give the same benefit of the doubt to me as well. Jolie: I'm going to take a quick break. Thanks for listening to the BiG Ideas podcast. Announcer: If you are passionate about big ideas, consider sponsoring this program. To have your name or organization mentioned here, please contact us at ics@bgsu.edu. Jolie: Hello and welcome back to the BiG Ideas podcast. Today, I'm talking to Dr. Lauren Salisbury and Dr. Matt Schumann about their work as camp counselors for the NEH-sponsored project Toward a Pedagogy from Crisis. The camp brought together instructors from across multiple disciplines in the humanities. How would you say that the interdisciplinarity of this learning community enhanced the camp conversations about creating equitable and inclusive learning environments? Matt, for you, what was the benefit of the interdisciplinary nature of this project? Matt: This is, again, a really great question. I find interdisciplinary conversations, in general and especially in this context, to be hugely beneficial. It is really easy, especially as scholars, to get siloed into our particular disciplines and also to get siloed into our own personal experiences of whatever is happening around us, coronavirus or otherwise. To have scholars and teaching colleagues from all over the humanities echoing our struggles, echoing our frustrations, echoing our experiences, and, in some cases, echoing our growth and our triumphs was really affirming. It was very, very good to hear a number of voices processing the same event or the same sort of struggles in a variety of ways. Somewhat, as I had shared earlier before, not really insisting on a particular methodology for my students but exposing them to a lot. The interdisciplinarity of our own conversations in the summer camp was really refreshing because it allowed me and, as far as I could read from our participants, it allowed others as well to process their experience from a number of different perspectives. Jolie: What about for you, Lauren? What do you think that interdisciplinarity brought to this project? Lauren: Well, I think not just interdisciplinarity but also the variety of roles that we had present in the summer camp was really important. This was something that was by design on our part as camp counselors was that we really wanted the camp to represent the teaching population in the humanities at Bowling Green. It was important for us to make sure we had graduate students who are teaching. We wanted to have adjuncts who are teaching, we wanted to have non-tenure track faculty who were teaching and talk about how those challenges and those vulnerabilities we talked about are unique to those groups as well and, like Matt said, bringing in each of those perspectives to then talk to one another and understand how we each are experiencing the pandemic and pandemic teaching in distinct ways. Lauren: The graduate students were able to bring this dual perspective of student and instructor and talk about what it looked like, from the student perspective, to have all of their courses suddenly online, what do seminar courses look like when they're, poof, in a Zoom room instead, what was that like, what was it like to try to do that and then balance teaching at the same time, alongside all of the housing, personal, care taking challenges that went along with it. Non-tenure track faculty likewise who are perhaps full-time or who have been at Bowling Green for longer than those graduate students were able to speak to the way that institutional shifts happened or how it was unique for them to suddenly be online when they've never taught or taken a class online because they got their undergrad degree decades ago, so that was really wonderful to see not only those perspectives be shared but then also in things like... where we shared resources or we did a lot of sharing syllabi that were in process, things we wanted to do for fall. Lauren: To see those groups of instructors support one another, provide feedback was wonderful. It was mutual. We saw a lot of grad students say, "Hey. Actually, I just learned about this. You could try this," or the non-tenure track faculty went, "Oh, a few years ago, I taught a course that we did this." It was a mutually beneficial experience, I think, for all of those groups because of their different positionalities. Jolie: In the name of this grant is the term crisis, right? We regularly talk about, "This is an unprecedented time," right? The pandemic has revealed multiple crises. But, the summer camp emphasized a lot about play and playfulness. Can you talk about why you felt like that was an important aspect of this summer camp? Lauren, you want to go first? Lauren: Sure. I have a unique perspective on this, I think, because I currently have a almost two-year-old at home and another one on the way. I do a lot of play all day long, but a lot of play to learn, so that's something we do right away from the moment we're born is we play to learn. Play is all about understanding our position in the world, understanding how we interact with things in the world, and so that's a huge piece of it. I think that we also play because play invokes this no pressure or low pressure feeling, and that's what learning should be about. It should be low risk. Lauren: It should be okay to fail because that's, again, where our learning happens. I think one of the beautiful things about having play be emphasized... it's not just about, "Oh, we're going to have fun here," it's about, "Let's mess around and see what works. Let's mess around and understand that a lot of those stuff isn't going to work, and that's okay." It's okay to have failures, it's okay to have things not go the way we planned. It's okay to change things in the middle of teaching or in the middle of designing a course, realizing we need to make a change. Play is all about low risk learning opportunities and the ability to say, "I'm going to mess around with this. I'm going to get into my syllabus, completely trash it, rip it apart, put it back together, and see what it looks like now, or I'm going to rip apart that Canvas site, and see what I can do to play around with it, and make it something that's useful to me." Jolie: What about for you, Matt? How do you think about play and how was it important to you? Matt: I think I may actually take a slightly different tack from Lauren on this one, I also have a young one at home. There's plenty of learning through play going on that way as well, but also I do think of play as really invoking this term fun. Just like the pedagogical word "play," it's a very deep term. It's not something where we just mean messing around or just have a positive, emotional experience, but there's a much deeper pedagogical significance to it as well. What brought this out, for me, is actually the privilege that I had in the history department this last year. Matt: We just happened to have a couple of jokesters. Regardless of circumstance, it is an impulse for them to make it into a joke. Because they do that, I would just come away from every meeting in which those jokesters were present thinking, "If they can lighten the mood that way, if I can participate in lightening the mood in that kind of way, then really everything's not all that bad." The fun that I had in some of those history department meetings, the fun that I was able to transfer to our summer camp, to some of the classes through that sense of rhetorical play, that sense of just simple fun, it wasn't just a matter of, again, a positive, emotional experience. What it actually did was it spawned this sense of thankfulness that, even in the midst of a crisis, even in the midst of things being gloomy, or not going the way I wanted them to go, or feeling put upon by all the different circumstances, to have that sense of not only community but jocularity was immensely important. Matt: As I came to approach my situation with gratitude, it lifted not only my spirits but also the spirits of those around me, including in the summer camp, including among the students that I teach. Jolie: I want to conclude by asking both of you to reflect on the current moment. What do you think are the most important lessons that you want us to learn? What do you see as the best case scenario for how we might learn from this crisis to transform both academia and our own lives? Matt, will you start us off? Matt: I think there's a lot that depends on institutional leadership, and I don't just mean the president or the provost, I mean even at the department or collegial level. A lot that I'd like to tease out is that it can be a real temptation, in a time of crisis, to buckle down, look for what works, and just stick with it, really keep things on a tight leash. I feel like the best leaders and really the best case situation is going to be really looking at this crisis as an opportunity to experiment and innovate. As that happens, it's not just that we're going to find data-driven things that we can do, but we can also find new solutions to these problems that then carry us into whatever's coming once the worst of this particular crisis has passed. Jolie: What about for you, Lauren? What do you hope we can learn from this moment and take forward? Lauren: I think that one of the wonderful and also simultaneously frustrating things about being an online teaching and learning scholar as well as a working from home online instructor right now is that I've been doing both of those things for a very long time. To see a lot of these conversations come to the forefront is both a, "Yay. Finally, people are talking about it," and also like, "Yeah, I know. We've been talking about this. Thanks for joining us," kind of situation. It's been a lot of, "Yeah, the future is now. This is what's been happening for a couple decades now." I think that although that is very frustrating in a lot of ways, my hope is that whenever we go back to whatever it is we go back to after this, that those conversations continue, that we don't just have faculty members or instructors go back to teaching exclusively face-to-face and ignoring the online component. I've said, for a very long time, in various contexts, that we all are already online teachers, even before spring. Before March, we still were doing that because we all are using some component of online instruction, whether that's using a learning management system or we use our email. I also hope that we continue to see a lot of student participation in these conversations, too. Lauren: One of the things that's been really amazing, to me, is how involved students have gotten in the last few months in their own learning experiences. I've seen a lot of frustration from the side of faculty with this, and I get that to some degree. But, I've really enjoyed getting to see how many students have said, "No, this is unacceptable, this is not working. You need to do something different," or have said, "Yes, this is what we need. Thank you for doing this," and have taken a front seat role in their own education, that's amazing to me. Lauren: I love that there are all of these students who are really involved in that. I think, like so many things having to do with this pandemic, it wouldn't happen this way if it wasn't happening in 2020. Students have the tools to do that, too. How many call outs on TikTok have we seen, how many screenshots of really bad interactions have we seen on Twitter? We could talk about the privacy issues of that later. But, students, whether we like it or not, are taking ownership of their learning and saying, "This is not what we need, this is what we need. We need to have conversations about tuition. We need to have conversations about equity and access. We need to have conversations about privacy, about the fact that I have to work a full-time job to pay for this online course that I'm taking." All of those conversations that students are having is also something I hope doesn't go away. Really, I'm just hoping we all keep talking a whole lot because it makes me happy. I think that's where the change happens, that's where we all start to understand each other better, too. Lauren: Having conversations about the challenges from the student side, having conversations about the challenges from the instructor side and what that looks like, I think that's the only way we make any kind of lasting change or improve things. Jolie: Thank you, both, so much for joining me today. Listeners can keep up with Toward a Pedagogy from Crisis and other ICS happenings by following us on Twitter @icsbgsu, Instagram, as well as our Facebook page. You can listen to BiG Ideas wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Please subscribe and rate us on your preferred platform. Our producers are Chris Cavera and Marco Mendoza with sound editing by Marco. Research assistance for this podcast was provided by Stevie Scheurich. Thanks very much, everyone, and stay safe.

Episode title: EPS: 7 - Shining Light During a Dark Time with Lauren Quirke   Episode summary introduction: On today's show, we are talking with fellow TAES speaker, Lauren Quirke. We dive into how to be a shining light during this dark time and bring more gratitude into our lives. Lauren shares with us how to find the beauty in all of these negative events. We also talk all about how to best utilize this time we were given in our lives, business, and family.   Resources mentioned in this episode:  Lauren on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lauren.quirke/ Rich Soul Radio: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/rich-soul-radio/ Rich Soul Squad: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1172726359567849   What is TAES?:  The Abundant Entrepreneur Summit 2.0 is a 3-Day Virtual Women's Event held November 12th, 13th & 14th hosted by Kamille Cawley. Lauren is one of the incredible guests who will be speaking at this event.   Episode transcript: Lauren: This is a time for us to really go inside ourselves. So when you're sitting there and you're like, Oh crap, I can't go to work today to the job that I'm not even into, get amongst personal development. I mean, get amongst working with your soul, connecting into your body, start learning how to meditate, start learning how to, to find your center and to listen to your heart and your soul. Kamille: Welcome to the Abundant Entrepreneur Podcast. I'm your host, Kamille Cawley, two time business owner, fitness expert, connection strategist, creator of the Abundant Entrepreneur Summit, wife, and fur mom. Each week, these episodes are filled with stories, strategies, and expertise given by guest entrepreneurs from all across the world, as well as bonus episodes, from me, that will energize, empower and support you in your journey through entrepreneurship. Get ready to elevate your vibe and captivate your tribe. It's time we connect to our message, step into who we are truly meant to be, and become more abundant in life and business. Who is with me? Let's get started. Kamille: Hi, everyone. We're so happy to be back. I have my good friend Lauren here, and she is going to tell you guys what she does, but today we're going to be talking a lot about what's going on. How we can make the best of what is happening in our world today, because we're all going through this right now, and it's a tough time, but there are things that we could be doing. And there's a lot of things that can be manifesting and working on. And Lauren is a great person to do that. So tell us a little bit about you, Lauren, cause you are like, you're so good at this. So go. Lauren: Well, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here. So my name is Lauren Quirke. I am the founder of Rich Soul Revolution. I basically help women to take a more holistic and soul driven approach to their business and their lives as an extension. I, yeah, I have a podcast and all that, but at the moment I'm really focusing a lot on helping people to really activate their light and shine that into the world because of what dark times we are in. And yeah, so I'm just, I'm happy to be here and jamming with you. Kamille: Yeah, absolutely. So like you guys said, she's very, very good at bringing the light to situations in general, but we obviously know a lot of you are going through a hard time. It's a little bit scary. It's a little bit, there's a lot of unknown with what is going to happen, how long we're going to be away from jobs, how long we're going to be stuck in a quarantine situation. Lauren is actually not here in the United States where most of my people are. Where are you at? Tell them. Lauren: I am in Australia where things aren't so crazy. However, we are in this weird state of limbo. Like will, we won't? Like the schools are still open at the moment. And around the world, most of the Western world has essentially shut down, but over here in Australia, we're a little bit behind. We are like I just, I just saw a news article before I got on and saying that they would, they were telling us to distance ourselves from our children, which is so impractical because I mean like how, like, I dunno, I just had this image of these children wandering the streets with a little knapsacks while the parents we're like stay out. Yeah it's just not practical. Dirty faces cause like there's no one to wipe the gunk off their face, but yeah. It's crazy just to see what's happening around the world. And as an energetic being, and as someone who, I'm highly intuitive, I have access to my psychic powers and all like my intuition and I get really strong downloads from the universe telling me that it's going to be okay, so I'm not stressing. I'm more worried about the impact that it's having on the global consciousness. And I feel like it's a really important point to point out here that we, this is the awakening that's been, it's been building up for so long. And it's, I heard a reference to the day that said this is the freight train. This is a freight train that you get that little knot in your stomach that's like, it's time to wake up. And then you get it's a little bit louder. It's time to wake up. It's time to wake up. And over the last decade, there have been lots of people awakening their consciousness and their spirituality. And so were maybe not people who are in that position, maybe aren't feeling the wrath of this as much, but this is a global awakening. This is literally, it's like the freight train is coming through and it's like, you're not going to listen, well here is the big impact that you need to wake up and realize that your soul needs work and we human beings are spiritual beings. So we need to really connect within ourselves. So this is a great time to do that as well. Kamille: And as Lauren and I were talking before this, we were saying that, although we personally may not seem so panicked or freaked out by the situation and we seem very grounded right now, we feel that it's important for us to help those that are feeling lost right now, not motivated, unsure of what's going on. Maybe even like really pushing back, because they just don't know what to do at this point. And we're understanding of that. We are not judging that just because we are certain and we feel okay with what's going on. We understand that there's some push back in your own mentality, anxiety, panic. There's so much that's going on. If you're watching the news you will automatically be panicked and try to stay away from that. Especially the first couple hours of your day. Just maybe we were also talking about, obviously I wanted you to go into what you think is something that would be, especially for, I have a lot of entrepreneurs that are here and some of them, they still had nine to five or some of them work full time, but they're still feeling a little like lost in what to do. What should they focus on? What is going? What is your idea of something that they feel they could start working on now to make them more grounded and get back into their flow of work, back into what they were doing before all of this happened? Lauren: Yeah. That's a great question because we, at the moment we're all kind of floating up in the air or like what's going on. Everything we've ever known is like just crumbled in, in two weeks. I mean, Kamille and I were talking literally like two weeks ago and like there was, it was in the background. We knew it was there, but it literally didn't even come up in any of our conversations that we had because it wasn't that big a deal. And now speaking, it's like the world's just going crazy. And it's like, borderline apocalyptic, where you go to the supermarket, you can't even buy essential things anymore or non essential things. But I think the most important thing to do right now is understand that this is happening, like for you. This is everything is shifting. Everything is changing and there's nothing that we can do to control that. So when you can surrender to that and just go, okay, I am here, you are here. Like you have a purpose on this planet. Otherwise you wouldn't be here surviving this. You wouldn't be here working through it. This is something that we were all sent here to experience, and this is going to help you grow. You don't have a choice in that. Like, I mean, you could resist it, but like none of us have a choice we are going to, when this is all over, we are going to wake up and the world is going to be a completely different place than it was before. And like the likes of 9/11, when that happened, the world is a very different place, post 9/11 as it was before it. So it's the same kind of thing on a larger, more global, more collective scales. So what you can do really, to ground yourself is to surrender at first to let go of that, because that isn't going to serve you moving forward. And this is a time for us to really go inside ourselves. So when you're sitting there and you're like, Oh crap, I can't go to work today to the job that I'm not even that into, get amongst personal development. I mean get amongst working with your soul, connecting into your body, start learning how to meditate, start learning, how to, to find your center and to listen to your heart and your soul, like learn that. Cause it's something that does take practice. It's something that does take a lot of time. So while you have the free time, instead of sitting there and bingeing on, the latest Netflix movie and things like that, because guess what, like all that stuff shut down too, that stopped filming that, like Hollywood they've stopped filming all the things they had going on. Like all the studios are shutting down. So eventually like this goes on long enough, there's not going to be any new content in that space for us to consume. So start, but guess like we are in our homes, all of us leaders out here in our homes, creating content for you, showing up for you. So consume that and find ways that you can, can really connect into your soul because moving forward, you are going to be a different person. The person next door is going to be a different person and everyone is going to shift. So you get to decide now how that shift will happen. Is it going to be for the better, or is it going to be the, the worst? So yeah, you get to decide and ways you can do that. Like I said, I'm meditating, I'm dancing to really remove that stress and that our bodies hold onto so much of it. The other night I went to a healing and we, it was really strange cause we thought, Oh, maybe there's going to be like the four regulars there. And it has never been so busy. There were like 25 people there. And I was like, that's just such a beautiful insight into humanity where we're, like in times of panic and worry, we're all showing up. We're all showing up for ourselves and it's not, we're showing up for other people, we're showing up for ourselves. And I went to that healing so that I could show up in a bigger way for the rest of my community, for the rest of the collective. So yeah, it's just about deciding now who you want to be like, do you want to be scared and timid and hide or do you want to show up as a leader? And I know the women listening to this, you, you have a call, you have a calling right now and whether you've tapped into it or not yet you have this calling to show up in a bigger way and you had it before this. So don't let that. So would that be overshadowed by what's going on? Because this isn't, this isn't a permanent thing. This is something that's temporary. And on the other side of it is so much beauty. You just have to work through that. Kamille: I loved that you said two things that we need to surrender to it because it's going to happen. It's happening. It's happening no matter how we feel about it, what is going on inside of us right now, it's going to happen? So the best thing we can do is try to adjust to it and make the best out of this situation. And I liked the other part that you said showing up for ourselves because right now you get that opportunity. A lot of times you're showing up for other people. If you are going to a nine to five, still, you have to go show up for your boss and all your other coworkers. If you're showing up online, a lot of times you aren't just showing up for you. You feel like you have to show up for everyone else. Right now, you can show up for yourself. You can show up and show what you have, what value you have as a business owner, as an entrepreneur, as the side hustle that you've always wanted. And just someone that's online. If you just are someone that feels like you've always had a passion for something, even if you're not trying to make a business out of it, this is your time to truly show up for others and show them what you have inside of you. And I've seen a lot of people kind of crumble underneath what's happening. I've seen business owners that I've dealt with that have been pushing so hard in business right now. And I want to tell you guys a little story of it's not long. Kamille: It's just, I have a business owner. She has been working. She was my client for a little while last summer. And she's been working so hard to get her business off the ground. And she is currently stuck in a different country, away from her family and her boyfriend, her boyfriend of like six years. She is currently stuck in another country. Can't fly to him. She's stuck in Canada. They won't let her fly out. She's been stuck there for, she was there on vacation, is stuck there. Has not been able to go home for almost three and a half weeks. And she has no idea, no idea when she gets to go home. So when you're feeling like you're stuck in your actual home and you're not doing anything about it, there are people out there that can't even go home to their families right now. There are people that are stuck in areas that they don't want to be, or in actual quarantine. In actual quarantine, away from their families, not being able to touch a single soul. So in this moment, you are truly blessed. You are blessed. We're blessed in this moment. I know it's hard to see through all of the thick layer and everything else that's out there. But if you are truly blessed in this moment to be, I am blessed right now to be in my home office, knowing my husband's going to be here, my dogs in the other room, you know. I am blessed with food and everything in my cabinets. I am blessed right now. During this situation, I can now step up and be there for you guys when other people don't even have that opportunity, can't even be with their loved ones at this moment. So I know it can be hard but I don't know how you feel about that. Because when I heard that story today, I was about to cry for her because I felt so bad. She's like a 26 year old woman stuck during this time in a country, she doesn't even know. Lauren: Absolutely. And you know they had the other day they had on the news or a current affair, which is like a breeding ground for negativity, really. Like I never actually watched it, but it was on before, like a show that I wanted to watch. And I was like, whatever, my mom was watching it, we were kind of like, this is like just a disgusting thing to be watching, but whatever. And they had a woman who was like a reporter for the show. And she'd been over in New Zealand, which is like a four hour flight. It's not like it's like an extended state of Australia. And they sent her, she got back home and she got on the last flight before they shut down like the borders. So she was on like the lot, they had 24 hours to get. They gave him 24 hours to get home, which was impossible before the, before the court, the 14 day isolation which I find really strange too. Because they're still getting in taxis. They're getting out of the airport, going into taxis, going to their hotels or their apartments and still coming into contact with people. But anyway logic has definitely gone out the window in this situation. So that's what it is. But and she was even saying that she, they had a two year old daughter who didn't travel with them because they went on like a romantic weekend away before like the hit and they then had to go back and, and quarantine, but they were like, well, what do we do with our two year old daughter? Like we have to be away from her for another two weeks. She's two. She doesn't understand like, sorry, there are so many stories. I saw a story of a girl who came over to Australia to visit her family. She was living in LA, she's an Aussie girl, but she was living in LA with her puppy and everything in LA. Lauren: And she came over for like a week and got stuck here and now she can't leave. And now like her puppy is on the other side of the world. And even though like that's not, it's still, like someone who needs her, it's a soul that needs her now she's going to try and work out a way to get that puppy looked after longer. Because she had to be like a kennel and you like, you can't afford a kennel forever. And it's just, it's crazy. And there are all these little stories. I have friends on Facebook who are, who were living in Italy, who are contemplating, escaping, running to another country in the middle of the night to get out of there, to, to come home. And it's just, it's just wild, but what you can do, I love what you said there. Like, what you can do is just find some things that you're grateful for. Find the fact that you have a roof over your head, even, yet it's inconvenient to have to stay in that. And that's the only place you could be for the next God knows how long. But guess what, at least you have a roof over your head. There are people out there lying on the streets right now who are the most vulnerable, who are the most forgotten, who are the ones who are going to suffer the most and were over here freaking out about bloody toilet paper. Like find things that you can be grateful for. This is a great time to cleanse, and this is what this, this is what this whole situation is. It's a cleansing agent basically. first of all I know in our country we had, chronic bushfires for six months. Like our country has finally stopped burning. And then we had really bad floods after that. And then after that we've had this. So it is literally that the earth like mother earth is, she's cleansing. And with that comes comes us as well. We have to cleanse as well. We have to purge. So take this time to go through your house and cleanse anything that doesn't belong there, put it up in bags, put it in your garage or wherever. And then when, when you can leave, get it out of there, remove it. It doesn't need to be there anymore. So, and, and bless it, sends it off to somebody else who needs it, but just finding little practices of gratitude, just, taking a moment to just go I'm here. Like I get to be here today, even though it is just in my house and my kids are running around driving me crazy and I can't wait for them to get back to school. And like I wish I could just focus on my work or, I wish I could just do the thing I wish I could. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I wish I could go to my nine to five job or whatever, you know? So really just focus on what you have available to you right now and be grateful for that because people aren't getting that, that opportunity, people have died from this virus and I'm not saying that to scare you, but I'm saying that to say, get some perspective of like, Oh, what, like you, you have to stay inside your nice warm home and be safe. What a problem that is, you know? Kamille: Yeah. I agree. Like we, and that's why I say like, just be grateful. I think that this is the perfect time for self awareness to take some time for self care, self understanding. you have this time, you have this time at home, you know? Lauren: It's a gift. It's a gift. It doesn't look like that. It's a gift wrapped in really shitty paper. Kamille: And like, you can actually figure out like, I, before all of this happened, I had so many like women that would come to me and say like, I just can't focus. They don't know there's so much going on. I don't know. I don't, can't find clarity in what I need to do. This is your time to find clarity. You get this opportunity. And yet again, I understand it's in the wake of some bad stuff, but you have the opportunity to sit down and really get to know yourself and understand yourself. And I promise you whatever you had pending in your business, or what you were trying to do is going to be 10 times better because you've had this time. And I think that it's so important. Like I said, I understand that some people are maybe not feeling motivated. I heard people are feeling unsure how to do content right now. And I get that. I get that. This is just tough. This is like, we all are trying to figure out how to navigate through this. Lauren: And were not coming from a space of, we have all the answers. Kamille: I always want to talk about it because I feel like this is the main subject, but then I'm like, I don't want to be talking about the Corona virus 24/7 on my Instagram or my social media. And so I've been trying to figure it out myself on how to navigate. But all I know is that I have had the time to sit and say, okay, well, how can I come forward? And be like you said, just like this shining light, this leader for people that are truly, truly dealing with real stuff and really held back in this situation, because that is the opportunity I have. I don't have all the answers, but I just know that I can give something. And I've been at, if you guys follow me on Instagram, which I'm sure you all do, I've been giving out just workout programs and doing little workouts everyday. It just gives people some motivation, telling them how to get up and kind of go through a morning routine just so that people don't feel like it's over. It's not, it's not over. Lauren: This is the beginning. This is just the beginning. You guys, this is like, there's so much possibility and opportunity here. And you just have to open your eyes and your heart to see it. Kamille: That's true. I really want, I think mainly the reason I'm doing a lot of these calls and Lauren's an amazing person to have on here. But for me, I know that this is our time, especially for my online entrepreneurs. And I know that a lot of you that follow me, this is your time to thrive. Really? It is. I'm not saying to sell. Lauren and I were talking about, this is not the time to go, maybe push programs in people's faces. This is your time to truly show yourself, show who you are, educate people, help people, support people, because I promise you the moment we get out of this, if you helped five people, every single one of them is going to remember you, the moment that everything goes, not back to normal, but things start getting back into a routine. People are gonna remember that person that helped them through their anxiety or their motivation or whatever it was that kept their smile on throughout this whole situation. And really just helped people. And this is your opportunity. This is your opportunity to step up and thrive through this situation. And tell them a little bit about the masterclass you're gonna be doing on Sunday. Lauren: Yeah, so on Sunday, it's going to be 9:00 PM Sydney time. So that will be I'm not sure what time it will probably be in the morning, but there's going to be a replay anyway. But basically I had this, like this idea, this download that I wanted to really show up and give, some really good value around how to thrive in this uncertain time, because not only is this an uncertain time, but this there's nothing to say that in 10 years time or five years time that there's going to be certainty. We can't rely on the status quo. We have to be ready. We have to, you know I guess, proof out our businesses for these things. And if this can happen once it can happen again, you know whether it's the stock market crashes or whether it's a depression because of the financial strain, like, it doesn't mean that because the virus might be over in the next year or two months. Even if things change and they're not going to go back to the way they were. So how are you going to, damage proof your business so that you can thrive. So basically what I put together is a one hour training where I'm going to help you to, to do the marketing for your business. I'm going to help you to show up and teach you how to show up at this time, because it is a little bit of a gray area where it's like, how do I talk about my business? And there's a lot of guilt around it. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of like, Oh, I don't want to, like, what do I say, how do I approach this? Like, how do I, how do I show up and how do I, how do I make money? But like I'm not saying to put all of that on hold at the moment. Actually I'm not saying that at all, because I'm about to launch a program. I set the date for April 1st and I've had people sign up for the waiting list. So it's not about but I truly believe that the reason that they've been signing up to the waiting list, I haven't been pushing that product. I've been talking about how, like coming from a space of service. So that's, when you can come from a space of service, maybe it's giving away your program, at a cheaper rate or it's, it's, you know doing some free master classes, like what I'm doing to give value so that you are coming from a space of service because not only will that help you to, build your reputation and to really solidify your reputation in the online space, but it's also going to feel good. Lauren: It feels good to give, it feels good to give. And even if it's just something little, maybe it's just jumping on a five minute live and saying Hey guys, how's everyone feeling. Just tell me how you're feeling. I'm here for you. I, this is a safe container and I just want to know how everyone's coping. And then when they say, Oh, not great, I'm feeling really anxious. It's like, I'm here for you. I love you. And just know that you're okay, that you're safe and that you're supported and just exchanging that human connection in whatever capacity we can at the moment, because we are social beings. We are here too, we are tribe members and, for centuries we've lived in tribes. And now that we are segregated, it's like well we actually need that. So driving this uncertainty is it's just a masterclass that I've put together. There's no sales pitch attached. There's no, I'm actually giving away a free mini course that I put together about activating your lights so that you can, in this dark time we need more light. The more light we have, the less darkness there can be. So it's just about activating your own light and whatever capacity it is that you are showing up, whether you're, like a personal trainer or a coach or an online business person, whether whatever it is, or maybe you just have a nine to five job, and you just want to show up for your kids. You just want to take the burden off them and just shine your light. And this isn't just for coronavirus or the current situation, but it is something, a tangible tool that you can take forever. Because like I said, this might not be the only disaster that we live through. This might not be the, and it already isn't. I mean, we were all alive for 9/11. We were all alive for, the Bali bombings and terrorism throughout the years and natural disasters. And, just a few months ago, half of my country was on fire. So, we survived that we will, we will survive this, but it's about giving right now. It's about what I can give? What do I have to give? Maybe it's volunteering. like I know you guys can't really do that, but maybe it's making up some meals and then finding a way to deliver them to, to, some senior members in your community. Maybe it's just donating some cans of food that you actually don't like that maybe, like your husband bought some like the wrong tin of tomatoes or something. Lauren: And it's like, well, we're not going to eat this. Let's find a way to get it to someone who will. So it's just a way of finding a way of standing up and saying, I'm here. This is what I'm doing. And it's not going to stop because if you people need certainty right now. So if you have a business and you're like, I don't want to show up because I don't want people to take it the wrong way. Guess what? You're actually doing them a huge disservice, because people are looking for you right now. They have never needed you more. They have never needed you more so show up and it doesn't have to be perfect. It doesn't have to, you don't have to have this awesome. thing put together, I mean, I put together this, this masterclass, I had the idea two days ago, I put together the sales page, but the information page in a day. And I was like, well, that'll do like, and people were signing up to it because they need it. And I asked my audience, I said, Hey guys, what would you rather, would you rather A, B, C or D? And I had a, D was like all of the above. So I ended up putting together two things and I'm giving it all to, I'm just giving it. It's not, it's not mine to have. It's just knowledge and love that I have to give. So it's,  Kamille: I think that's amazing. I mean, like you said, there, this is, this isn't the first time we've gone through. I mean, I worked in the real estate market. When we, when we here, we're going through like that huge lump in 2000, 2008, where people couldn't sell anything. And like, there's always, there's always going to be hard times. Like we're going to go through this. Maybe it's not all the time. And we've been lucky that things have been getting better, and this is a big one. And, and, but we will go through, there will be things in your business that this happens. And we have to have a certain mindset when we go into this is the perfect time. And even if you don't feel like it, especially if you are right now just tough, tough, you're just stuck. You're stuck hard right now. And you're like, I just can't. I just feel like I can't even show up for my people right now because I do it'll hurt me. Then go be a part of something like Lauren's class and her master class is great, just like I said, this is a perfect time to work on you as well. I'm not saying you just have to be, you're going to be a better mom, wife, husband, whoever you are. You're going to be a better business owner coming out of this, working on yourself as well. So if you are really just stuck and I know some of you really are, it's really hard, not all of us deal with this kind of anxiety and panic the same way. And I understand that. And if you really feel that way, then you guys know I have a ton of support groups. I actually started a support group just for this. Again, this is one of those situations that I'm going to say, you are not alone. Obviously you are not alone. We all are feeling something. Although I, yes, Lauren and I seem a little more grounded in this situation. We're still dealing with things. Lauren: We're still human. Like we still have feelings. Kamille: I mean, there's fears, obviously like my husband is still going to work right now. And I fear that like, he's, I mean, I still have natural fears. I mean, I know that, but I'm just not panicked about it. But if you are, this is a great time for you to join a group, go to a masterclass, be a part of something, and you can be totally not present in it, I mean, not there. You can keep yourself silent, but just be present in it, just be there so that you can, you can truly just take in and help work on these situations. Because again, these will happen again. And I knew someone who you are so strong and you are capable of getting through this. And I don't want this to hinder you because I know that so many of you can come out of this situation stronger and better. Like, I know that somebody who could actually maybe say they say to you, Hey, okay, we can start in your nine to five again. And you're like, screw that. I spend the last two weeks building my business, you know? And like, I'm ready to go. Like, I'm ready to go full into my, my online business. I don't even need you anymore. That feeling is something. I walked away from a nine to five job. I mean, I know what the feeling is to be like, I don't need you anymore. So, I mean, this is, again, this is your time to just kind of at least find your spot, go to masterclass, join one of my support groups. I'm not charging anything for my support group. It is literally just a safe place. Like you said to talk, let's just all hang out. Like I said, and then also it's funny because I have a I have my mastermind and we met on Monday and these women I've been, I've had a mastermind with for months and months, but they're like, here's some other stories, it's just, that's what I'm saying. Like, I was feeling bad for myself and I'm just like, no, I gotta get toilet paper. I'm mad. And then I think like, I think about everyone else and what they're dealing with. And I'm like, Oh my God, I'll deal with it. Lauren: I heard that Kansas has shut down their schools for the rest of the year. Yeah. Because a friend of mine who's in my mastermind. She was telling me yesterday that she was like, Oh, and she's a photographer. So she was like, Oh man, like, I don't know. I don't know how I'm going to my business and stuff because it is something that she has to like to go out. And, but now the interesting thing is now cause I'm putting together, I'm about to launch a master, like a membership site. So now she was like, I'm thinking of doing a membership site for the branding side of my business. And I was like, see, it's something that you've been thinking about beforehand, but now you can actually focus on it. And if your kids are at home, this is a really great time. Like mothers, we really struggle with, especially, mothers who are entrepreneurs. We really struggle with that guilt of like, I have to be here. I have to be here. I have to be this for this person. I have to be this for this person. And like take an hour away and focus on playing with your kids. This is the chance. This is your chance to, it's just an extended weekend. Enjoy it, enjoy this time. Instead of being like, Oh no, like I've got to work on my business and I've got to post this, all this content, like maybe spend an hour a day doing that and then enjoy having your kids around. Because before too long, they're going to be grown up. they're going to be doing their own thing and you're going to be like, man, remember that time that we were locked inside for two weeks. And I just spent the whole time on my computer or just watching Netflix and dreading that time. Like I get it like a year is a really long time. And obviously there's going to have to be some sort of solution in that instance where it's like, well, how are they at? like how are they educating the children? But cause it can't all fall on the parents either, but maybe this is a really great time for you to try homeschooling, that's something that I've actually been thinking about before this. So when they inevitably lock down the schools here and shut down the schools here, I'm going to be using it as a time to trial homeschooling for my children to see how they, how they go with it and how, how it works in our family. Lauren: So it's like, well, it's just another opportunity for you. It's just another way to see if it works or not. And then, yeah, I know. I already know that I'm going to get really frustrated with them because like, as much as I love them, I do like to have some space from them. So I get that. But it's about finding time. So when they go to bed really consciously go, okay, well now I have an hour to myself to, get on and watch a master class or to, YouTube some personal development or, scroll my social media and unfollow anyone that's causing mass hysteria. And anyone who's saying, like the sky is falling, just unfollow them. They're not gonna, like they're not even going to notice. They're too busy, like worrying about the end of the world. Like they're not, they're not going to care, but stop, find, follow, find people to follow who inspire you, who, who are teaching the things that you want to learn right now and use this time to, to grow. And then, these are the ashes we are, we are sitting in the ashes right now. We are the Phoenix's ready to rise and it's just about getting ready. it's just about getting ready to rise from the ashes. So, right now we are in the burn stage where, and we're searing off all the stuff that doesn't serve us anymore. Kamille: I, it's been raining in California. It rains like three times a year. And I was saying that the other day, if someone was being, like, Oh my God, the rain is just a symbol of how the world is just like, it feels like it's just a cleansing of like, everything we're just not supposed to have here anymore. Like, it's just everything, like you said in mother nature is just kind of telling us, like, we need some kind of change. We need something. Maybe this is a drastic thing to happen, but like you said earlier, people complain about their 9-5, well here you go. Like, here are your opportunities. And I was like, like I said, here in California, it never rains for like a week straight, like a week. And it's supposed to rain on like I said, never rains that long here. And I was just like, it's just something for me. It's just like, kinda like cleansing everything away is all done. And all of it goes away. Like the world is just gonna be so much cleaner and perfect for us to just go out there and conquer it and that's just like how you feel about the rain right now? And someone said something so negative. They're like, you're weird. And I was just like, but that's how I feel like I just can't see. I don't want to see, like again, I'm not being ignorant or oblivious or naive, but I want to see the best outcome out of it. I hope that families and people that are sick that are quarantined, they do get better. I hope that all of that does, unfortunately people have passed from it. But now that we are doing what we need to do to make sure no more, not more get sick. And hopefully this will be that moment that everyone kind of just comes out their doors. I almost feel like it's going to be a movie, like where the birds are going to be chirping and the sun is going to come out. I just feel like that's what works and you want to be so excited in such a good place for that. That's what I want to be. But now that happens and yes. Am I going to get a little home crazy? Probably. Yes. I mean, I'm someone that's used to going to the gym, going to yoga, getting out. Like I am, even though I work from home, I still get myself out. But like even my walks with my dog, I've appreciated so much more these past couple of days. It's so weird. Like, I'm like, at least I can still do this. like, no one's getting near me. I felt so good. Like the sun came out for a little bit. Like those are just moments that I just want people to like, appreciate. So surround yourself, like you said, there's going to be a lot of negative people and a lot of negative stuff. Getting set out there, surround yourself with people that are going to keep you positive that are going to keep you pushing forward. Getting through this, not sitting in a hole, a panic this entire time. Again, we don't know how long it's going to last. I know that's scary, but do we really want to be sitting in a corner the entire time wrapped up in our toilet paper? That's not where I want any of the people that I have any sort of poise to. I do not want you sitting there. So I know that like you guys go to Lauren's masterclass, I think it's going to be amazing. Anything else you want to say that you want to share with anyone? Any little insight to tell them. And obviously I want them to, I'm going to put your masterclass information. Anything else you'd like to tell everyone before we go? Lauren: Yeah, I think, we don't know how long this is going to go for. We don't know if this is going to be a two week thing or a six month thing, and we are going to be forced to face parts of ourselves that maybe we've hidden from that we've shied away from the shadows within ourselves. And my biggest tip to you is to, in order to invite the light in is to, to work on those shadows, like take this time to work on the shadows, you know? And when, when fear is coming up and when you're, when you're feeling overwhelmed or uncertain and all these negative emotions, like think of all the times that you felt that and work on removing those feelings. And the reason that that Kamille and I are able to, to show up in this capacity is cause we, we started doing the work and we, I guess we were fortunate in a sense that we, we, we didn't we didn't have the freight train come and smack us in the face and say, well, you don't have a choice now, but maybe you were in that position where you're like, Oh my God, like, I've just been listening to these women talk. And I wish I could have more of that view. And I wish I felt a little bit safer and supported in this time. Well, you guys can come to us, we're here for you, we're not just, we're not just supporting ourselves. We're not just, you know we're not just here for ourselves and this isn't in the interest of showing up for our businesses. This is showing up as, as humans and showing up as part of the collective. And it's, it's all about coming together. So you feel, you need the support, you feel that you need just someone to talk to just come out and reach out to me or to Kamille. And we're, we're so open to helping you with our hearts and we have so much to give you guys. So, come to my master class, come hang out, come get my free mini course. I'm not going to pitch you anything. I just literally want to give you guys some love and some support. And if you, if you can't make the master class and you just want to reach out personally, you can just, I'm sure Kamille will share my details with you. You guys can just come and come and talk to me. Like, that's what, that's what I'm here for. Like, I know that, I don't think that I was here for this. Like, I don't think coronavirus is this, like, this thing that was like in the stars that, like, I think that it's it's the way that the world was going, was like getting a little bit crazy. So like we had to have a shift. So, but we, as lightly as we have, we have been training for this our entire life, without even knowing about it, you have been building up to this point, your entire life and in past lives as well, without getting a little too woo woo, like we have been building up to this and you would not be here. You would not be present. You would not be in this space in time if you weren't able to deal with it. So there's lessons here to be learned as lessons and there's things to be there's things to be, to be learned and to, to adopt here. So just be open, just be open to letting the lessons and the light come in. Kamille: And I think there's going to be moments of being uncomfortable. You're going to be in your home, in your own silence at certain points. And yeah, there's only so much TV and stuff that you're going to be able to watch, or it might not. Those shows might not be going again and there is going to be uncomfortableness and it's going to be, there's going to be moments, but these are those moments. Like I know for me, I'm someone that hated to deal with those moments. I did not want to go to meditation or classes where I would have to think of these things. And like you said, it's taken practice. And for me and you, luckily we've been working on these things for a while now and it's come as being entrepreneurs that we've had to learn to deal with this because we would have never been able to even make it this far, if we didn't, and it's going to be uncomfortable with the uncomfortable, it's going to be the greatest part of it, because you're actually going to come out so much stronger and you have so much growth from those uncomfortable moments. I even suggest having those moments, sit in silence with yourself and maybe a journal and or light music, light meditation music in the background and just sit there and see what thoughts come to you. Are they all negative? Do you really need to just sit down and like, be like, okay, wow. Like everything that's negative or do you have things in the back of your mind that are like, trying to tell you you're good, you've got this. those are the, that's what everyone's always telling you journal, meditate, all that stuff. That stuff is what this, this has come down to is like, now you get to do that. And it's good. Uncomfortable is good. So uncomfortable is good. It's scary as hell. And it's awkward and it feels hard. And I'm someone that's like, woo on the go all the time. And like, it's hard. It's hard to do it, but you have to, you have to do it. And it's the perfect time. It's the perfect time we've been on this forever. We can always talk forever. So anyways, I will put all her information, the masterclass information, make sure you go join, my husband's home so my dog's going nuts so I better get off. So yeah, you guys, I'm going to put all the information. Be sure you reach out to us. We're here for you. I know it's weird to reach out to people you don't really know sometimes, but this is, this is the time you can't go. You can't go down the street and just go to Starbucks and hang out. You have, you have to do it online right now. And this is that moment I call it being the zoom calls, being a lean on the shoulder kind of situation right now so come join us and thank you so much for being here, Lauren. Lauren: Thanks for having me, it's been so much fun. Kamille: Thank you guys so much for listening to the Abundant Entrepreneur Podcast. I am so happy you tuned in today. You can take a moment to share this episode with someone that needs to hear it. That would be amazing. Also, if you could head over to iTunes and give me an honest review, that will help me in making this podcast even better for those on their entrepreneurial journey. I want a completely honest review from everything you like to what you want to hear more, because that will only help me make this podcast even better. Again, thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week.

Time to Lean In Rather Than Backing Out   It’s absolutely amazing to have Lauren V Davis from Lauren V Davis Creative and The Business Event Playbook on the podcast today. I’m an avid listener to Lauren’s podcast myself and am so glad that I can share with you how inspirational Lauren has been in the entrepreneurial space.  We chat about personal branding.  How important it is for others to see the real you. The importance of leaning in to opportunities. Having female role models to inspire us. Tips on how to make the most of networking.   Lauren is sharing her thoughts on why she would love to see more women in positions of leadership, why it is so important to take those opportunities when they are presented to you and why it is crucial to have a personal brand which really reflects who you are and what you represent.   ‘Your personal brand is what you’re known for, how people experience what makes you uniquely you.’ – Lauren ‘It’s really important to build connections.’ – Gemma ‘The more people who believe and trust in who you are as a person, the more those relationships convert into sales and into a great business where you feel fulfilled.’ – Lauren ‘I think it’s really important to find people who inspire you.’ – Gemma "One day waking up saying oh my gosh I'm speaking I've got a podcast and I'm doing all the things I never thought I would do and that comes from leaning in" - Gemma ‘It’s the power you have inside you which influences the people around you.’ - Lauren   An entrepreneur from an early age recognising the impact that hard work made, Lauren has had an incredible journey. She recognised a genuine love of branding, strategy and marketing when she started her first venture as a small business owner.  Lauren Davis lives in Rockford Illinois and works with people over the world to overcome their personal branding discontent and grow their presence so that they can focus on sales, exposure, leadership and community impact through her marketing consultancy Lauren Davis Creative and her podcast, the Business EventPlaybook. Lauren's natural and undying passion revolves around taking new learning opportunities, travelling the globe and networking at conferences and workshops in order that she can better serve her clients. As she says, she loves to improve, loves to impress and loves to give everyone she works with 100%.   #NoMore Hiding #Leadership #Selfpromotion #Femaleleaders #Networking   Book a call with Gemma: http://bit.ly/CallGemmaPodcast More info about the 1-1 No More Hiding 12 month Coaching Programme https://bit.ly/NMH12Pod Connect with your host Gemma Stow: Website: https://www.gemmastow.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gemmastow/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/gemmastow Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iamgemmastow/ Connect with Lauren : Website: https://laurendaviscreative.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ldaviscreative/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LDavisCreative?ref=hl Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ldaviscreative/  

What are the Secrets to Scaling Your Nonprofit with Lauren Cohen (archive) Global entrepreneur and #1 bestselling author Lauren A. Cohenis an attorney licensed in both the U.S. and Canada. Lauren is an expert concierge immigration and business legal advisor boasting a stellar track record of success. Lauren has first-hand knowledge of the visa process, having herself immigrated from Canada in 2001, and later becoming an American citizen in 2012. In 2008, Lauren started e-Council Inc. an internationally-acclaimed company focused on providing concierge strategic full-service solutions for businesses seeking capital and foreign entrepreneurs seeking access to the U.S. market. In 2017, Lauren established Find My Silver Lining, a 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to helping struggling single moms - and parents in general - to find their silver lining in a crowded world. Continuing in the tradition of sound strategic solutions, ScaleUPCheckUP is Lauren's newest initiative - an online risk assessment checkup tool for growing businesses in ScaleUP mode with the overriding mission of anticipating challenges before they happen. Designed in response to the challenges faced by so many entrepreneurs that simply do not understand the critical importance of proper professional guidance, and/or are afraid that the costs of protection are too high, ScaleUPCheckUP is poised to revolutionize the professional services industry and the way in which collaborative professional services are delivered. For more information go to https://www.scaleupcheckup.com Interview Transcript NPE Lauren Cohen Hugh Ballou: Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange. This is Hugh Ballou. My guest today has a fascinating background and a real passion for helping leaders in any kind of organization. We are going to be specific about scale-up check-up and how it is of value to those of us leading charitable organizations. We like to say a “for-purpose” organization. We have for-profit and for-purpose. If you would kindly tell us who is Lauren Cohen, a bit about your background and what led you to doing this particular initiative today. Welcome to The Nonprofit Exchange, Lauren. Lauren Cohen: Thank you. I will speak as loudly as I appropriately can without screaming. Hugh, it's a pleasure to be on your show and to know you. I am excited about our opportunities together. I am originally from Canada. I moved here in 2001 and became a citizen in 2012. I was doing immigration law outside the corporate transactional work internationally for seven years. I kept seeing these recurring themes among businesses who were seeking to raise capital and for entrepreneurs and businesses who were looking to come into the country. The recurring theme was they were really focused on sales and marketing and getting coaching and moving up the ladder and making money, but they weren't so focused on getting a strong foundation in place. The reality is that you can't really scale your business or often even stay in business if you don't scale up your business. In response to this recurring theme, I developed this online risk assessment tool which helps companies find their missing pieces, their gaps, and fill the gaps so they can scale up successfully. It is applicable to nonprofits because nonprofits need to scale as much as for-profits. At the end of the day, we're all about making money. It's about where the money goes that is the main difference between a for-profit and a nonprofit. As a social entrepreneur with a social consciousness, I am very focused on helping businesses be able to scale up successfully without hitting all these roadblocks along the way. Not to say that they won't hit any roadblocks, but the roadblocks are going to be a lot more manageable, and they will be able to respond to them more effectively because they will have the right professional team and structure in place to be able to do that. Hugh: Russell, this is Russell Dennis who has jumped on the call. You can tell the difference between us because I have more hair. That's it. Lauren: That's the only difference I see. Hugh: Russell, you guys got snow out there in Colorado, didn't you? Russell Dennis: A little bit. We got a little bit out here. It wasn't a great deal, more in the mountains, about an inch or two here in Aurora. Hugh: Lauren is jealous. She is in the Fort Lauderdale area, and she didn't get any snow. Lauren: I think I mentioned I'm originally from Canada. I grew up in Toronto, and I definitely know snow. I have a lot of good friends living in Colorado, including in the cannabis industry and outside of the cannabis industry. Hugh: Lauren, tell us a little bit about- You are trained as an attorney. What kind of attorney? Lauren: I am. I have been a corporate and immigration concierge attorney doing international law and handling international people through advisory services for longer than I care to acknowledge. I am licensed both in Canada and the U.S. I have been working with local entrepreneurs all over the world. You name it, I have been there. Europe, Israel, South America, and Canada, and the U.S. even. Mexico. It's been an interesting ride. I have always felt a calling to the entrepreneurial side of my psyche. As much as I love being a lawyer and that training was great, I don't love sitting behind a desk. I love being with people and helping people and making deals happen. The M&A lawyers who are on Wall Street, I am that type of mindset, but with my own clients and having a much more hands-on approach to working with clients and making sure all their moving parts are moving in the right direction. At the end of the day, there are so many different things that entrepreneurs and small business owners have to deal with in nonprofit and for-profit. They just don't know who to trust and who not to trust. I became this trusted advisor on an ongoing basis and decided to turn it into a larger-scale opportunity to help these businesses scale and grow successfully. It's a nice system. I am happy to share all of the steps with you. It's a nice system that helps you get your structure in place as a blueprint to success. It's like a business plan. Hugh: Great. Do you have a volume control on your computer? Lauren: I do, and I have it all the way up. Hugh: That won't help. I will bring you up when I do the edit of this. Let's talk about the word “assessment.” Everybody uses it. I'm not sure any of us have a definitive paragraph or sentence that we can say to describe it. What is an assessment? Why is it important? why is it important especially for nonprofit leaders? Lauren: Our assessment is quite different than a traditional assessment because we are assessing various foundational issues. Do you have your corporate minutes in place? Have you set up your structure properly? Do you perhaps have trademarks? A lot of these nonprofits are sitting on potential trademark or licensing opportunities that they may be overlooking. Did you put a business plan in place? Do you have an exit strategy in place? For nonprofits, an exit strategy is much different because you have to have an exit strategy for an IRS requirement. It's a matter of looking at all the various components of getting your structure in place and making sure your structure is sound so you can scale and grow. What happens, you will agree with me I'm sure, is I find all too often these small business owners, these accidental entrepreneurs, came up with this idea and suddenly grew. They didn't pay any attention. It's like building your dream home on a sinkhole. Suddenly, the sinkhole collapses, and your whole home collapses with it. I am here to make sure that doesn't happen. I am there to help you get your business on a solid foundation and make sure you are not building on a sinkhole before you start spending all this time, money, and effort to scale your business. At the end of the day, you can only scale so far, and it will come crashing down if you don't have that foundation. That could be assessed. We are assessing your foundational infrastructure. We have a customized score report that we provide, and we have an analysis of what that score means and how you can improve your score so your foundation is stronger. We also have a quiz that I'll share with everybody on the call. It's a freebie, a free online quiz that helps you to see initially how committed you are and how committed your business is. Our mindset might be 100%, but our business may not be ready to match our mindset. Russell: A lot of people mistake assessment and evaluation. They look at it as, It's something I have to do to get somebody off my back. It could be the government or a donor. We are doing this because we have to. They talk about some aspects of their work when you ask them how they know you're effective, “Oh, you can't measure this.” How much of that do you see, and how do you address that when people come at you? Hugh: Lauren: If you can tell me the answer to that, I will have the idea that will get me on the front cover of Entrepreneur Magazine, which is where I'm going. It's challenging. What I'm dealing with, and when I go on stage, I am making broccoli great again. It's about that. when I am building the broccoli of your business, it's not the ice cream, it's not the fun stuff, it's not the dollar dollar dollar, but at the end of the day, it really is. Even for a nonprofit, helping you get your structure in place will allow you to get more donor dollars, allow you to have a stronger valuation, allow you to potentially grow your business successfully, and this adds zero's to your bank account. My new messaging is all about show me the money. If you have a strong foundation in place, you will be able to see more money, if it comes from donors, buyers, or both. Certainly a nonprofit can offer for-profit products and services and make money. It's about what happens to that money that separates it from a for-profit business. Hugh: You have a nonprofit yourself? Lauren: I do. Hugh: What's it called? Lauren: It's called Find My Silver Lining. I established it in 2017. Hugh: You used this assessment yourself? Lauren: I did. Hugh: When you talk about this, there is a strong element of enthusiasm and passion. Was part of the inspiration seeing so many people get stuck in the mud or walk in the wall or fall off a cliff? Lauren: I want to say around February of last year, I have been a part of this coaching program. I offered to review some client agreements at no charge as a gift. In doing so, I realized that there were many business owners in that program that didn't have their ducks in a row. Many had been in business for many years. I'm not saying that that's not possible; it's very possible. But once you hit a certain threshold, you're not a mom and pop anymore, so you could be a target, not just for the IRS, but for litigation, potentially bankruptcy. People see opportunities. People want to challenge you. If you have a disgruntled employee, whatever the case is. As soon as you are starting to scale, your target becomes bigger. I kept seeing this. Oh my goodness, these amazing business owners are exposing themselves to risk. There has to be a way to address that risk and provide a solution. Ultimately what I am building is a home advisor for profits and nonprofit business owners to provide a resource of certified, vetted professionals like you guys who can provide a range of services: strategic services like legal, financial, accounting, insurance, business planning, exit strategies, all high-level B2B services that they are just finding on the Internet. Finding these resources on the Internet is like going in the Yellow Pages. We all used them. AAA, so they would get to the front of that section. It's the same as Google Ads. The more you pay, the higher you rank. That is where they will get the most traction. It doesn't mean they're the best. Does it mean they have been vetted? No. Because they are at the highest ranking, you are going to call them first. I am trying to be the antithesis of that. We won't talk about the companies out there who are especially providing legal services that you have no idea what you're getting. I have a client now who applied for a patent in June. They didn't even know what a patent was. There is no guidance. There is nobody holding their hand. What I have been doing for so long—I wrote a book called Finding Your Silver Lining in the Business Immigration Process. Everything is about finding the silver lining. Part of the reason is because to find a silver lining through adversity, my nonprofit is for single moms and single parents to help them find their way through the clouds. It's all about that. In everything you do, if you have somebody to count on, a support system, entrepreneurs and small business owners are often running on empty. We are running on our own. We are isolated. We are trying to have an impact. It's very hard to have an impact without the support and trusted advisors around you, so that is what I am building. Hugh: You're an attorney. You look at things differently than an ordinary person. You look at it as part of a risk assessment. Lauren: That's a good way of characterizing it, yes. Hugh: You've seen people get in trouble unnecessarily. Lauren: Absolutely. Hugh: You're looking at the holes. We're looking at the donut; you're looking at the hole. You see the silver lining, but you realize there are some holes. You're talking about a corporation, be it for-profit or nonprofit, and that corporation is a liability shield. Without the right documents in place, people can sue you and come for you personally if they can pierce that corporate veil. Lauren: Very big deal. People don't realize that. They think if they have a company, they're protected, and they're not because people can come for you personally. That is another dimension of the problem. Hugh: The compliance piece- recording your contracts, putting them in the corporate record book. Any agreements or expenditures. It's about liability protection. It's also about, you mentioned empower donors. Russell, it would occur to me we don't always protect ourselves from audits, but it would make us audit-worthy if you had your records filed. What are you hearing here, Russ? Russell: For me, the first step to building a high-performance nonprofit is having that solid foundation. There are a lot of things that go in there. If you don't have the right legal protection or the right structure, moving forward, you have to have the right structure. For nonprofits, succession planning is critical, too. Lauren: Big deal. Russell: Moreso maybe than exit planning. Everybody plans to operate in perpetuity. That doesn't always happen. But to have a succession plan so that you know how things are going to flow, no matter who is in the building at any given time, that structure sets a nonprofit up for success. Mitigating risks. I don't think a lot of nonprofits think about risks, but risk is there. You have natural risks. You have legal risks just like any other entity. The thing that came to mind was a question because you deal with this so much on the structural side. We talk about it in terms of strategy, but we defer to legal experts, accounting experts, experts who have that critical knowledge in their field that will keep us in compliance and keep us operating correctly. When it comes to scaling, I know a lot of times growth comes out of nowhere. You catch fire. You go viral. All of a sudden, you have all of this money and donors and people approaching you. When it comes to being prepared in this, what would you say is the biggest gap that you see nonprofits have? What is the most common mistake they make when they are that point in time? Hugh: Lauren: It's common for both nonprofits and for-profits although nonprofits are more guilty of this. Nonprofits think that because they have this designation, they are immune from challenge, or they are litigation-proof, or something along those lines. That just isn't true. Nobody will come after us; we are a charitable organization; we have a 501(c)3 designation. Whatever the case is. Why would they come after us? We don't have deep pockets. Really? A lot of them have deeper pockets because of the fact that they can distribute the income to their shareholders or the dividends or whatever. As a result, there is a lot of nonprofits out there that are extraordinarily successful. United Way, Red Cross, Jewish Federation. There is a huge amount of donors, very large businesses. There is a colleague of mine in this coaching program who runs a nonprofit. He came to the coaching program, and he was looking to raise $2 million. That was his goal for the year. He ended up raising $20 million because he created this licensing program and sold it to other nonprofits, which is amazing. That is where there is an opportunity. It's not just about assessing legal risk or legal vulnerability. It's also about the opportunity that this presents to you. I was talking about trademarks, and a lot of nonprofits have access to trademarks but don't know about them. In my report, I talk not only about risk, but also about hidden fortune. There is a lot of possible fortunes that these businessowners or executive directors might be sitting on that they could be making a great deal of money giving back to the community and making an even broader impact. I think that is where that missing link is. They don't think about a nonprofit as a business. They think about it as a charity. A lot of lawyers are guilty of this, too. Lawyers and service providers. Lawyers run their business as fee for service. I have developed this professional resource success plan, which outlines all the professionals that are needed to fill all the gaps in your armor and to potentially help you to scale and grow. We talk about mindset and coaching and opportunity and where do you want to go and your exit or your business succession plan. You're right. Every business needs a succession plan, whether it's an exit or a legacy. No matter what, in order to be successful, in order for a for-profit business to be successful at due diligence or a nonprofit to be successful in their succession planning, they need that structure in place. they are just not paying attention it. They are coasting along, thinking about how much donor money they can get this year, and are they meeting your budget, and are their donors happy. This is all great stuff. But think about the potential of greater impact if you are able to get those pieces in place and make that difference. It's like night and day. For both of you, once we have the opportunity to work through this with some of your client base, you can see how much of a difference it makes. They are coming out exposed, and then they are going back in and getting their hair done and makeup. Now they are ready to show themselves to the public. You are not getting too much hair done over there, Russell. It is a completely different mindset. I hear a lot of entrepreneurs work in their pajamas. I can barely work sweatpants even if I am working from home because that is not the mindset I want. I want to be in work mode no matter where I am. It's important. I think it's the same for for-profit business owners who are running a sole proprietor. They are not looking at it as a business; they are looking at it as a hobby. Until you make that transition, and look at it as a business, you're going to stay at a certain plateau. You may scale; you may make money. But at a certain point, you're eventually going to collapse. Russell: As you talk about that, one of the things that comes to mind when you talk about opportunities and other things businesses have access to, a business revenue comes to mind. Opportunities for mission-based revenue. You also have unrelated business income, as far as, it's money that's possibly left on the table because people don't think about bringing a valuable service. When it comes to revenue generation and protecting your intellectual property is important, it should separately be maintained and protected. Everything should be walled off. There is another discussion. When it comes to revenue, whether it's business-related or unrelated, when you see organizations that have one or both, what are some of the biggest pitfalls you see them fall into? Lauren: One of the things is that there is a limitation, but you still have to stay true. If you are a nonprofit and are providing for-profit services and products, you still have to stay true to your mission. If you start making millions of dollars and use it as a sham, so you can pass through income at a tax-free rate, or through a nonprofit to get the benefits of that, or raise money to do advertising, that is where the problems happen. The separation needs to be clean. If you start paying an executive director, suddenly they get a 100% salary increase, where is the money coming from? Where is the money going to? Are you circumventing the rule of putting the money back into the directors' pockets? That is where the problems happen. There is also an issue of fiscal sponsorship, as I'm sure you're familiar with, and renting your nonprofit to another entity. There are ways to do it that are legal and kosher, as long as you follow the rules. But if you are just using your nonprofit as a sham or as a front for what you're really trying to accomplish or for your for-profit business, you will lose your designation. It's as simple as that. Russell: It's important to put your structure. You have to have a separate structure, especially for unrelated, but also business income, and mission-based revenue. You have to make sure the vast majority of those funds are going into your programs and operation of your nonprofit to keep from creating a tax event. Unrelated business income, you file separate returns. You pay taxes on that the way you do with others. What happens is people can get distracted. People who approach a nonprofit can get confused. Do you find that nonprofits that are successful with generating large amounts of mission-based revenue, or maybe a substantial amount, a good percentage of the revenue they generate, do you find that they have difficulty getting donors because they see, “Well, they are making plenty of money. I don't need to write them a check.”? Lauren: It's definitely a challenge. However, it depends on your mission and how impactful it is and how broad it is. I think that what happens with some nonprofits, and this is what should happen, is as they become more successful financially, their mission expands beyond their original intended scope, demographically or in terms of the people they are helping. There is room for that within the IRS code. As long as that happens, I don't see it as a problem. But as soon as that is not happening, or once there is a compromise in that, it does create challenges. Russell: The key is to structure and make sure everything is compartmentalized and appropriately reported. It's about the systems you have in place. In order to scale, you have to have really good strong systems. What are the ones that you think are essential for them to have first? If you had to set systems up in a specific sequence for nonprofits, what would that be? Lauren: Operating systems are critical for any business; I don't care what business you are. You have to have an operating system for everything that happens from the time you answer the phone to the time you deliver the service until after that, all the way through, for the life of that relationship. You have to have a system in place for every single touchpoint with the prospective donor, with the donor, with following up with the donor, with if the donor moves. You have to have operating systems for all of your internal processes. They should be externally driven, one for your outbound touchpoints and one for your inbound stuff. How do your people work with each other? Who is responsible for your bank account? How many people are signing checks? What is the check and balance there? How does that all work? Every single thing should be documented. When I started this, I didn't realize how few businesses have systems. The only systems they have are the ones they pulled offline. That is the exception, not the rule. This is true of legal documents too because everyone goes online and pulls documents from there. It's like filling out the 1023, the IRS 501(c)3 application. Oh, this is easy. I can do this. It's just some forms. If that were true, there wouldn't be all these businesses doing that. It's very complicated. Even the 1023 form should not be done on your own. You need to make sure you are following the rules, and whatever you put in there is going to be systematized within your organization. What happens if the executive director quits someday? I'm sure this has happened to your clients. Uh oh, now what? One of my messages is about dealing with the Uh oh, now what? You don't want to wake up in the morning and say, What is going to happen today? I cannot imagine going to work today. Steve is doing this, and Joe is doing that, and Nina is doing this. Nobody is talking to anybody. We don't have group meetings. Things are falling apart. The donors are frustrated. They don't know what is going on. They are going to move their money elsewhere because they don't know if they are getting their donation receipt. It's a mess. One thing leads to another leads to another. I wish it was as true for the good things. The messy things have a more quick and efficient domino effect. Russell: This is true. We call them internal controls, what you talk about, for the IRS. How do you control who handles what? What is your record-keeping like? That gives you the scope of any audit you do. The scope is based on several things. One is the corporate records. I know you mentioned that. I'd like to ask you to speak to that. As an auditor, when I walked into a corporation, I wanted the internal control polices. The corporate minute book was the first thing I reviewed. Lauren: Was this on the for-profit side? Russell: The for-profit side, yes. Lauren: It's similar. When you submit for a nonprofit designation, you submit all these bylaws, including a conflict bylaw. I can't remember the title. Russell: Conflict of interest policy. Lauren: My brain went dead. This is so big in the nonprofit world. It's almost like insider trading in the for-profit world. If you have created a bylaw and implemented it and approved it and ratified it, and it's part of your corporate record-book, and you don't adhere to it, it's as good as throwing it against the wall to see if it sticks. This can put you in more harm than not having it in the first place. You're purposefully going around what you implemented. That's not cool. Your minute book depends on your state because some minute books, Delaware is strict on their minute book requirements and updates. Florida is less strict. The nonprofit requirements are different. But you need to follow your policies. Your bylaw policy said, We are going to have a board of directors meeting once a quarter. You need to have it and put it in the minute book once a quarter. I will tell you something that you probably don't know, and I shouldn't say it out loud. If there are businesses out there that want help with their minute books, we can fix them after the fact as long as it's before the auditor comes in. You just have to get everything up to date and in place. That's important. You can't fudge it, but it's okay to do it after the minute you're supposed to do it as long as you get it done. Let's get together. Call us, and we can get it done with you so that we can make sure you won't have a problem if the IRS or any other entity shows up at your door. Today, they're not coming so fast because they're still unfortunately on shutdown. Russell: The greater likelihood over the few years is a state regulator will walk in your office because of the reduction, and the money has been moved out of regulation. That's another discussion. It's true with the 1023. There are certain things you represent that you're going to do. What the auditors do is they look at your books and bylaws: Are you doing what you say you're going to do? I know there are laws out there. But we go by what you say that you are going to do. That is a huge portion of what an auditor would look at as to determine if you are on track, if you are in compliance. Are you doing what you say you're going to do? These are important to put on the table. With good systems in place, and it takes a little time to do this, the operation smooths out. Am I on track with that? Lauren: Hopefully. It's just like anything. You could have paper in a book or online. Then it's a matter of implementing and enforcing. Unfortunately, we're all guilty of creating a policy where the consequences are not consistent. Like my child. They're not consistent, so his behavior is not good from time to time. It's my fault because I am not consistent in enforcing a consequence. Same with a minute book. It's the same concept. A lot of people, just like setting up a nonprofit and using it as a sham, put thing into place to cover their you-know-whats. That's it. It sits on the shelf. They do it to be in compliance. If they are not honoring it and adhering to it, whatever operating system or control you have, it won't matter. You can't suddenly say, “I can't have a policy for it.” If you haven't enforced it in the past three years, and the person has been doing whatever they have been doing, or their brother has been sending them money, I am far-fetched here. The reality is there is a lot of this that goes on. As more for-profit businesses set up nonprofit entities, this is an ongoing problem. I think it's all a matter of training. If your people are not trained properly on what your policies mean, it's only a piece of paper. You need to have the policy, create the manual, create the operating policies, create the training, train your people, get them to buy in, have them involved, and have consequences for noncompliance. It's a range of things that need to happen. Have a third party designated to oversee that process so it doesn't fall on the executive director. Hugh: Absolutely. That's why you have board members and advisors. They really have fiduciary and governance oversight. Let's go back to this assessment. It sounds painful and expensive. What's involved? If I wanted to go through the process and take this assessment, what's involved in doing it? What do I get from that? Does it help me figure out how to do all this? It sounds scary right now. Lauren: We don't let it be scary. I am the non-scary lawyer. I have a free quiz. It's not specifically oriented to the nonprofit world yet; we are developing one now. I'll be happy to share it with your listeners. It's ScaleUpCheckUpQuiz.online. You can take that quiz; it's about 2 minutes. We can set up a quick call to discuss your needs. The assessment is $47. I can share a $20 coupon code that makes it $27. It's a customized score that highlights your issues and lets you know how at risk you are. It gives you access to my calendar for a quick call. The assessment and a strategy session is only $197. That gives you time to go through the assessment results and talk about how they could be improved. How can you improve your score so your bottom in is better? Our big deliverable item. The regular price is $997. However, Hugh, you, I, and Russell can talk about a special delivery product for the nonprofit world and can get a coupon code. I don't want to charge that much for people in the nonprofit world. It's a blueprint that shows you everything you need to scale up your business successfully. Then we create a strategy based on your budget and priorities. If your priority is to get a business plan in place because you want to build a facility, that's what we will focus on first. That will come out of this analysis and deep dive we do for you. Hugh: That sounds interesting. The quiz, anybody can take that. We try to convince those that are running a nonprofit, which is a bad word, it's a misnomer. Those who are in a tax-exempt enterprise, a for-purpose organization, they are really, there is a high level, it's critical that we establish sound business principles. If you have an organization, you should run it responsibly. It's good stewardship, if nothing else. The quiz, we could evaluate it as a tax-exempt business. It's ScaleUpCheckUpQuiz- Lauren: ScaleUpCheckUpQuiz.online. Hugh: That gives them the free quiz. You fill something, and you have a chance to interpret it. Then the assessment could be available through SynerVision Leadership Foundation for people who want to find out how much trouble they are in. Then there is a prescriptive; this is what you do about it. Lauren: Not exactly. The prescriptive is more detailed in the success plan. The assessment, if they do it with the strategy session, we will give them some ideas and tips on how to improve the score. It's the success plan that will give you a blueprint of everything you should do to make your structure more sound so you can accomplish your goals. Hugh: Your basic website is ScaleUpCheckUp.com. There is everything about the products there. There is a toll-free number to contact you. You have this purple branding that is quite elegant. Lauren: I've always been into purple. My existing brand is purple. For as long as I've had a brand, I've had purple. Hugh: That's on your site. People can go to ScaleUpCheckUp.com and can learn about you. What have we not asked you that people need to know about this whole line of risk mitigation? Lauren: The real question is: So what if I don't do it? So what if I don't get my stuff in place? What happens? How do I get caught? What's the risk? There is a huge risk. As Russell knows, having been an auditor, you risk not only for the nonprofit organization losing your designation, piercing the corporate veil, which means they go beyond the business and to you personally. You can lose your own personal assets. You put your family at risk. These are serious issues that people just don't want to deal with. They want to deal with numbers and money. Numbers and money, this will get you more numbers and money than any sale is going to ever get you. Your sale will be stopped dead in its tracks. All that time and effort on that sale will be wasted because you haven't done what you needed to do. When you want to create a strategic partnership or synergy, for example, you and I, with SynerVision, if we have a joint venture or strategic partnership, we both want to make sure we both did certain due diligence, with the compliance checks. We have our business in place. Our licenses are kosher. Everything is right and in place. Otherwise, I don't want to do business with you, and you don't want to do business with me. They could have a multi-million-dollar prospect on the table. I had a client I was working with for a short time. They were about to enter into this multi-million-dollar deal, a very big name. Big. Big. One of the biggest. I'm trying to see Russell's face. I think he's smiling. I'm willing, they didn't have their minute book records in place. For three years, they didn't have a single document. Because this company is so big and successful, they wanted to see that all their I's were dotted and T's were crossed. Do you know this company would not pay me to get their records updated? It was $5,000 or something like that. It was nothing. They didn't want to deal with it. They lost the deal. Multi-million-dollars. It was too late because they could have had it done, and they would have been at the table. This is what happens. You lose your seat at the table. You will have someone come after you and sue you, whether it's a disgruntled employee or the IRS. You won't have access to potential huge opportunities with your intellectual property. You are putting yourself at risk every which way and losing out on opportunities to make a fortune. So let's have a conversation and see how we can help you scale your business successfully and not violate your 501(c)3 designation or your company bylaws. I think there is a lot of for-profit corporations that are purposeful. It's all confusing, right? I try to have a purpose and make an impact, even though I have a for-profit company. There are so many ways we can create opportunity for you as a company and business owner to scale successfully. It's silly to throw that opportunity away because of fear of the unknown. Hugh: Yes, it is. This is a huge inventory of important things that people don't know to ask about. Russell, before we do our closing sequence, do you have another issue we need to bring before this lady? Russell: I was thinking about a point you made earlier that is worth emphasizing again. There are a lot of tools out there. People find templates and guides to build contracts and agreements with. Nothing wrong with them. The problem is people don't have them reviewed by someone who has the knowledge necessary to make sure everything is in there to protect yourself. Just grabbing something. The other thing people don't do is read the fine print in their own contract. They create something that they are going to adhere to. If they look at it with the eyes of, This will protect us from other people, they may not be protecting themselves from themselves by clarifying what they are agreeing to do. How common is it that you see people with these boilerplate templates? How can they get them reviewed? They definitely need to do that. Is it something that will break the bank? I think that's what stops a lot of people from doing that. Lauren: Thank you for asking that question. One signature speech of mine is “7 Secret Scale-Up Success Strategies.” One of the secrets is: Don't download a boilerplate template without getting it reviewed. There are multiple reasons to have it reviewed, some of which you addressed. Also, they could name the wrong parties. They could pull the wrong template. It could be perfect, but for another situation. They may think they need X, and they may need Y. It could be covered with legalese that no one understands, including lawyers. I wrote an agreement last week for a nonprofit for a lawyer. I was working with this lawyer. I want it to be two pages. This was a lawyer who was telling another lawyer that this agreement should be two pages. I can make it four. I'm laughing. I saw him last night and was like, “Two pages?” We are trying to condense things and make them concise because you get lost in it. I can't give you a flat fee, but we do have packages that include a range of services, including reviewing up to five agreements of up to 10 pages each. We have them on monthly packages, semi-annual packages, and annual packages. You need to grab one of those. Not go to those online services, but have someone you can trust and contact and text, a live person, who can help you look at those agreements and see what's missing or not. What's missing is almost as bad or often worse than what's not missing. You won't catch everything. No lawyer will catch everything because I don't know exactly what every single business owner wants to accomplish. But if you don't have it reviewed, you may as well jump in the ocean without a life preserver. Hugh: This is helpful information, Lauren. Thank you. *Sponsor message from SynerVision Leadership Foundation* What I'm taking away from Lauren's interview today is there are things about enterprises that we don't even know we're supposed to know. Lauren, what thought do you want to leave people with?   Lauren: Think about your nonprofit or for-purpose business as a business. Take it seriously. It deserves your attention. It deserves the attention of professionals. Don't be everything to your organization. Bring in the professionals that you can trust to accomplish the goals you need. I am available to speak with any of you about how to scale up your nonprofit. I look forward to working with you, Hugh and Russell, and collaborating with you further. Don't take the risk of losing all that you've built because you're afraid to make a phone call or send an email. Russell: This has been an enlightening and uplifting conversation. Here at SynerVision Leadership, we have all sorts of people like Lauren that are here. Come join the community and have a chance to plug into conversations with people so you are not doing things by yourself. We are the source for all things nonprofit. If we don't have the answers, we know people like Lauren who do.     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can you really control your weight? There are two schools of thought on this: one believes that nothing is within our control and the other believes everything is within our control. But what if the truth is somewhere in the middle? Annie and Lauren explore just how much control we have over our weight and provide helpful perspective on an age-old question. What you’ll hear in this episode: What studies say about how much genes influence weight What studies say about how much genes influence height Twin Studies, The Secrets of The Eating Lab and The Minnesota Starvation Experiment How we adjust our eating when we feel we are being observed The two camps: we can control all the things and we can control none of the things How much control do we really have over our weight? How your body responds to decreases in calories Ideal weight vs ideal weight range What happens when you try to “pause” on an escalator Process versus outcome goals How weight range relates to body composition Getting clear on your goals How your pre-disposed body type relates to your weight How to find your weight range     Resources: 53: Secrets From The Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann Secrets From the Eating Lab Episode 9: Two Sisters, Two Bodies: Growing Up Together In A Body Obsessed World Episode 4: What A 70-year-old Starvation Experiment Taught Us About Dieting Body Respect Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript: Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host, Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balanced365 together we coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio. Before we dive into today's topic, I want to share a super sweet review we got on iTunes last week from Blonde Lauren, which I promise it's not our Blonde Lauren. She says "This podcast is nothing short of life-changing. With all the negative information and images thrown at women in regards to our bodies this podcast is like a ray of sunshine. I listen to this podcast religiously as I walk the neighborhood and it always puts a smile on my face and helps me conquer the day. Jennifer, Annie and Lauren are so relatable and I feel like we were really friends and I just love that." Thank you so much. To everyone who takes the time to drop us a note in our email inboxes or leaves us a review on iTunes, we read them all and they all mean so much to us. Okay. Let's talk about today's episode. We have been talking about this topic in a roundabout way on previous podcasts, but we wanted to dive a little bit deeper into the topic. Can you control your weight? A lot of fitness professionals think you have all the control while some of them think this is a losing battle, why even try? On today's episode, Lauren and I discussed how much control you really have over your weight and I think you might be surprised. Enjoy! Lauren, how are you? Lauren: Good. It's us again. Annie: It's just us again, poor Jen is having some audio difficulties and she wanted to be here, but we are sticklers for sound quality on our podcast and it just wasn't gonna cut it, right? Lauren: Yes. She likes to compare her sound now to my sound when mine wasn't working because she thinks it was terrible. Annie: Well, you know, we've had this, I think we've talked about this on the podcast before, but sound quality. And I thought when we started this podcast, like you would just plug in a microphone and hit record and then you just piece it together. Lauren: I feel like it should not be this hard. It's really fun for us. Annie: It's really hard and especially because you and I have both moved and, maybe Jen's even moved, but when you move, like then you're changing a different recording location and that can affect the acoustics and so, yeah. Lauren: And then the technology on top of all that, sometimes it just does not work out. Annie: Yeah. But we're not complaining Lauren: It might sound that way. Annie: We actually, I really enjoy the podcast. I really, really enjoy doing it. But it's just been a little bit more difficult than we anticipated. So, and especially getting the three of us together in three time zones, like, you know. Lauren: There's always some disaster. Annie: Always. Lauren: The morning of recording. School's canceled or sick, a kid is sick or the heat went out, but we always figure it out. Annie: Yeah. We piece it together. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: We're scrappy in a good way. So we're talking about a really interesting topic and it comes up pretty frequently in our community and that is, can you control your weight? And I think it's really interesting because it seems like there's kind of varying answers to that question and it kind of depends on who you ask. But there's this idea that we can control everything, right? And we can absolutely control our weight. We have total control. On the other side of the spectrum there's this like, "No, you don't." There's people that say you don't have any control at all. You don't need to bother with trying to control your weight or manage your weight. It's just, it is what it is and you're just stuck with it. Whatever it's at and we wanted to dive into like what the real answer is. Do you have any control of your weight? And it's something that we've kind of, I feel like, talked about in a roundabout way with various guests on the podcast, but we haven't specifically addressed like this. Lauren: Right. This one question. Annie: Yeah. And on paper it seems to boil down to simple math, right? Which I think is where we get kind of the, "Yes, you can control everything about your body and your weight." It's "Eat fewer calories than you consume and weight loss will happen," right? And you'll get the desired outcome. And we have- Lauren: And we talk about that too, right? Like we talk about its weight loss does come down to calories in versus calories out, but that's not the whole story. Annie: Right. And we have professionals in our industry that will say that you just need dedication and self control and commitment and then you can have the body of your dreams, right? Like, whatever, whatever body you want, which I think is where we see a lot of the, I don't know if this is still a thing, I don't actually read these sorts of magazines anymore, but at one time, health and fitness magazines used to have like a celebrity on the cover of their magazine. It was like, here's the Jennifer Aniston Diet, or here's the Jennifer Garner diet or whatever. And I used to think like, "Oh, if I just eat what she eats, if I work out, like she works out, then I will then look like Jennifer Aniston. Lauren: Right. And, I can't remember her name. Do you remember the actress's name from that movie? Zack and Miri? Annie: I don't even know that movie. Lauren: Okay. It's a funny movie. I can't say the whole name of it because it's not appropriate. But she was on the Ellen show and, they were showing a picture of her own magazine and talking about like what she eats or whatever. And she was like, you know, it doesn't matter what I eat, this is genetics. Like, this is what I would look like regardless. I would look pretty similar to this. Annie: Right. Lauren: So, you know, people are congratulating her and she's like, "I didn't do anything special. This is just how I'm built." Annie: Yeah, exactly. But you're jumping ahead of the outline. Lauren: Oh, I'm sorry. Annie: Okay. I guess we can sign off now. No, we'll use that as a great segue because it does, it sounds really easy on paper that if you just do what she's doing or, you know, I think, yeah, I get questions, you know, like about my arms. Like what, what arm workouts are you doing? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: It's genetics. Like, maybe years of softball has played into this but it's where I carry my fat. It's how easily I build muscle. And, I think, it's known that our genes control or have an effect on our weight, but it's a little bit, we've been a little bit gray on how much control. Lauren: Right? So we have, like you said, the two camps, the "you have total control" and "you have no control." And surprise surprise, we fall somewhere in the middle. Annie: Yeah. And if you listen to Traci Mann's podcast, which if you haven't listened to it, we'll link it in the show notes. It is a wonderful podcast. She is just a wonderful woman professionally and personally. She's just a good human. She wrote the book The Secrets of the Eating Lab and inside there she compared, she shared a study and it compared the weight of more than 500 adopted children with their biological parents and their adoptive parents. And so this, the idea behind the study was that if learned eating habits, if you could just willpower and self control and you know, do all the things, if learned eating habits have more of an impact on weight then the children should have a weight that mirrors more like their adoptive parents and if genetics had more of an impact, then it should, their weight should be closer correlated to their biological, their birth parents. But what they found was that the children's weight correlated strongly with the weight of their biological parents and not all with the weight of their adoptive parents, which I think is fascinating. Lauren: It is fascinating. Annie: And additionally, a study also she shared in the science, studies, Secrets from the Eating Lab, study from the Secrets of the Eating Lab. They did a study of identical twins that were raised in separate homes, which I think is like interesting enough that there's twins that were raised separately enough to study. Lauren: Can we get the story behind that please? Annie: But there is, there were enough studies, as a way to make sure that they didn't share the same eating environment. Right. So it was a way to tease out that environment was a role in this study. The study looked at 93 pairs of identical twins raised apart and then a 154 pairs of twins raised together. And the results showed that the weights of the twins, whether they were raised together or apart were highly correlated, which again goes to show that our genetics, our biology has a large impact on our weight and those studies and in addition with some other studies what largely contributed, to scientists concluding that our genes account for about 70% of the variation in people's weight. Lauren: Right. Which is huge. Annie: Which is, yeah, which is huge and I don't know, some of you may be listening in and think that that's way more than you anticipated and some people will be like, "Oh maybe I have a little bit more control than I thought." Like it kind of depends on where you fell on that spectrum. If you were like, I can control all the things and, and get whatever body I want if I just have enough self willpower and dedication and self control, this might be shocking news for you. On the flip side, if you were like, I don't have any control, I'm stuck. I come from a long line of people that look like x, y, z. This is just as is what it is. You might have a little bit more wiggle room than you thought. Lauren: Right. So you have about 30% of your body weight is in your control. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Is what this is basically saying. Annie: And what I think is interesting about this is, Traci Mann also shares, I mean obviously we're not researchers, we're not scientists. So we're pulling this information because we are evidenced based. We don't want to just feed you information because it sounds convenient or because it works for our philosophy or our brand. But for reference she also compare us that genes play about an 80% role in height. And I think that's such an interesting study because you don't see anyone being like, "Oh, I just wish I could, if I just had more self control or willpower, I'd be taller." Lauren: I could get taller. Annie: Yeah. But so often we see people talking about their weights like that. Like, "Ah, I just, I need to quit being lazy or I just need to get my butt to the gym. And then I, you know, I'd get rid of this, you know, fat on my hips or whatever," you know, but you don't hear people talking about their weight or their height, like they do their weight, but it's pretty comparable in how much control we have. Lauren: Right, right. A little less in height. But still really close. Annie: Like you're not over there trying to be taller. Lauren: No- Annie: I mean, maybe heels. Lauren: It's interesting that both of my parents are relatively tall and both of my sisters are, well, they're all like more average size and I am smaller. Don't know where that came from, but it did come from somewhere. Annie: Yeah. Well, and you know, we kind of talked about this, how genetics in the two sisters podcasts where we had Janelle and Jen, cofounder Jen, had her sister on and they have very different body types and they were just, they had a really beautiful story about how Jenelle looked like all the women on one side of the family. And Jen looks more like all the women on the other side of the family. And I just, I think there's a lot of beauty in looking at your family tree and like seeing that. It's not just like body parts, it's like seeing your grandmother, your aunt, your sister, like elements of them. And I think that's just beautiful. Lauren: Not to throw a wrench into this discussion either, but now there is, sort of, more relatively new study called epigenetics, which is like how your environment can turn on or off certain genes, which is also really interesting and I'd love to, I haven't looked into this yet, but I'd love to kind of look into that too that aspect and that might be the 30% that you can control, right. I'm just making that up, but it's something to consider. Annie: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That is, I've never, I don't even think I've heard of that term, to be honest. So I'm curious to learn more about that. Lauren: You know, it's relatively new. I think it's, they're learning more and more about it but there is some studies out there. Annie: Fascinating. Lauren: Yeah. Cause we have, we have a lot of genes and different things determine which genes get turned on and which genes don't. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Just a little side note. Annie: Interesting. And I feel like I'm now distracted by that. Lauren: I'm sorry. Annie: Refocus. So our genes, just to recap that first point there, our genes have accounted for about 70% of the variation in people's weight. So, again, that's just saying that our biology, our genetics make up a lot of, determine a lot of how we weigh or what we weigh. But that doesn't mean that you're totally out of control. But additionally, our genes can even control how much weight we gain. And this was another study from the Secrets From the Eating Lab that there was even studies where participants were fed the same amount of calories, and the twins gained varying amounts of weight for it. So for example, pairs of twins that were overfed by a thousand calories. Again, if this boiled down to just math, if it worked out on paper, you know, a thousand calories equals this percentage of pounds of body mass gain a week, they should have all gained the same amount of weight. But what happened, pairs of twins that were overfed by a thousand calories a day gain to anywhere from nine to 29 pounds. So in other words, we aren't in conscious control of how our bodies use calories or energy, which I think is fascinating. And you know, if you're listening to this and you feel like I hear this a lot, women comparing like what they eat to their girlfriends or what they eat to the men in their lives and it's like, "Oh, I feel like I look at a Snickers and I gain weight" or you know, "My husband has trouble." I just met with a personal training client yesterday and she actually is having trouble putting on weight and I'm sitting here on the opposite end of the spectrum. Like, I have no problem putting on weight, it seems. Lauren: Right. Annie: And so I just think that that's again to show that our genes can even control how easily we gain weight, lose weight, put on muscle mass, don't gain muscle mass. Lauren: It's super interesting too because we are still learning about how all of this works. Like even now, researchers are still asking questions and they still don't know everything about how all these genes play into weight and metabolism and metabolic rates do differ between people. I think it's, it's not as significant as maybe some people have been led to believe, like if someone has a fast metabolism but it can differ a little bit. Annie: Right. Lauren: Which is what's happening probably with, you know, your client who can't gain weight. Annie: Yeah. And there's so many factors to be considered like environment and like what they do for their, what their, like, habits are, and how their relationship with food and their relationship with exercise. So it's like oftentimes multifactorial. But in the studies of these two are really interesting, especially because we've talked about, we have another podcast, The Minnesota Starvation Experiment, you know, studies like that just aren't even allowed anymore because they're considered unethical. Like, and it can be hard to study people's eating habits. And Traci Mann talks about this in her book because the minute people think that their eating habits are being studied, they change their eating habits. They like get all self conscious and they start doing different things that they wouldn't normally do if they didn't think that they were being watched for eating. I mean, I do that when, like, when I'm out and I feel like, you know, all of a sudden I'm at this nice restaurant or whatever and I think people are looking at me, I'm like, "Oh, I better put my napkin on my lap and not spill and use the right fork and put my fork down between every bite. Breathe. Not just inhale all my food. Annie: Anyways, getting back to our genes. Lauren, this is something you've talked about a lot in our workshops and our podcasts and our program, but that your body has a pretty kick butt weight regulation system and that can often override conscious efforts to change your weight. So for example, you cut calories, your body may in response slow your metabolism, resulting in fewer calories burned or you ramp up exercise and your body secretes hormones to increase hunger, which happens to me all the time. Like I exercise, I actually get hungrier. And so I often eat more and you've talked about that before, that your body's like pretty smart like that. Lauren: Yeah. Well your body, its main goal is to keep you alive, right? And so when you cut calories or you're not eating as much, or cut calories drastically, I should say, because that's what most fad diets do, your body thinks that you're starving. It doesn't know that you are doing that on purpose and that you're going on a diet. And so it does everything in its power to help conserve what energy you have and get you to eat more calorie dense foods. So that's another big reason why you crave high energy foods when you cut calories, you know, because your body wants that energy. Annie: Exactly. And many dieters, I know I've experienced this, I'm sure you have too, have maybe experienced a feeling like your body doesn't want you to lose weight. Like you're fighting against your body and it usually looks like something like this. You cut calories, you experience some excitement and exhilaration of initial weight loss and that's followed by an increased drive to eat and/or not move as intensely as you have been, which leads to weight regain because you go back to eating the food you were eating or not moving as much. And then that's followed by guilt and maybe even this sense of hopelessness. And that's something that Linda Bacon talks about in Body Respect, which is another wonderful book if you haven't read that and she just note that that's because you can only cheat biology so long. Like as you were talking about, your body is trying to, it cares about you a lot. it wants to keep you alive. Lauren: And that's like the unconscious part of ourselves. I think it's the reptilian, it might be the reptilian part of the brain, right, that controls that. And so you literally don't have control over those things. Annie: Right. And Linda Bacon has this, I think it's really kind of refreshing, it feels like it just takes the pressure off of me personally. But she has the quote in her book, again, Body Respect that "Diet failure is no more a sign of gluttony or lack of character than breathing deeply after exertion indicates lung failure or shivering in the cold weather evidences weakness." Like that's, this is the desire to eat, the desire to not move as intensely, the weight regain, that is all what exactly what we would expect from someone that's dieting, that's trying to cut calories. This is what your body is made to do and it's trying to do this because it's what it thinks is best for you. And it's a normal and expected response. So, I guess what we're just kind of boiling this all down to say is that you might not have as much control as you, some people lead you to believe. And what we talked about in the Traci Mann podcasts was that you have a little room, a little wiggle room, and one of the things that she suggests, because I know some of you might be listening and thinking like, "Crap, I wish I had more control over my weight" and we don't want you to feel discouraged from making changes if that's what you decide. But Traci Mann really encourages people to have a weight range versus a specific weight. And, I think that that's a really great idea because so often we hear women that they have this like ideal weight and that ideal weight is pulled out of thin air. It might be their pre-pregnancy weight, the weight when they got married, the weight they graduated high school. It might not even be realistic. And to think that your body can sit at one stable weight throughout the day, the week, the month, the year is just not attainable. That your weight ebbs and flows throughout again, the day, the week, I mean, if I weighed myself in the morning versus night versus Monday versus Friday versus the first of the month versus the end of the month, I would probably get six different body weights. Right. And it could range, you know, and you know, fluctuate five, six, seven pounds. And that this is normal and especially seasons of life, you know, if you're, you've got to, you've just given birth or you know, maybe it's winter and you're not as active, you're not outside as much. Your schedule is really busy because you're an accountant and it's tax season and you're working more and not hitting the gym as much. It's normal. And for this reason, a range seems to be a lot more realistic versus maintaining a single number throughout the year. Lauren: Yeah. So if you just kind of are aware but also going with the flow, like if your weight is up five pounds or down five pounds and just being okay with it instead of again pulling back that pendulum cause that's going to start that extreme pendulum swing over again. If you can just, like Jen says in our workshop that we do, in her Mario Kart example, if you can just move the wheel slightly to the right or to the left instead of extremely turning right or left, you'll be much better off. And also, Traci Mann also talks about this weight range. So there's a certain weight or there seems to be for people a certain weight that is dependent, like we said on many different things that if you go below that, that's when all of those biological changes start happening. Like your appetite increases and your metabolism starts to slow down to conserve some energy. So instead of, she says there's a weight range that your body is comfortable at and you can make changes to get to the lower end of that weight range. And so that's where you have, that's where you can control. So you can't control exactly what rate, but you can control where in that range you say. Annie: And the beautiful thing about that weight range is when you find it, you'll often find that it feels effortless to maintain or that you don't have to work near- Lauren: or close to Annie: -as hard. You have the perfect analogy in our workshop, that we share every now and then about riding an escalator. And when you're dieting hard, when you're trying really hard to maintain a weight that's below that range, it often feels like you're riding, trying to go up a down escalator and like, you're working, working, working, working, working. And the minute you want to take a break or rest or hit pause, it's like you're right back to where you started. And the idea is that when you find that range, you can move it around, give or take a little bit, but it's not like exerting all of your effort, all of your brain power, all of your energy to achieve this weight, either above or below that range. Because she also found in that book, she also found that the opposite was true to that getting people to gain weight out of their range was also equally as difficult as trying to get them to live below the range. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So with that being said, another suggestion we have in addition to the weight range versus a specific weight is to focus on your health behaviors versus weight. And, we've said this for a while, that your weight is not a behavior and for so many reasons we can't always control our weight and trying to do so is really, really difficult. And one of the things Jen talks about too is a lot of this can boil down to are you valuing your weight or are you valuing thinness or are you valuing health? And, you know, and again, no judgment Annie: There's been, I spent a lot of my life valuing thinness. I wanted, I didn't care if I was healthy, I wasn't even thinking if I was healthy or what I was doing, the behaviors I was utilizing, the tools I was utilizing to get to a certain weight was healthy if it was sustainable. I wasn't really even concerned with that. I just was so focused on getting that weight or getting that look, my body to look a certain way that I kind of forgot about health unfortunately. And again, I could just, I have a girl crush on Traci Mann, I could just talk about her all day but at the end of that podcast, she encourages that if you're eating balanced meals most of the time, not getting too full, you're not under eating, you're exercising a little bit throughout the week, you're managing your stress that whatever weight you find yourself at doing those things is good enough. And I think that, like, gives me like a, almost, I can almost breathe like a big deep breath, like a sigh of relief. Like I don't have to do all of these things and then I'm validated by reaching that goal weight that like, "Okay, I did enough." It's like, well, let's focus on what, like, actually our behaviors are and if those encourage health, then we're on the right track regardless of what we weigh. Lauren: Right. When I was at my thinnest, my behaviors were not healthy. Annie: Right. Lauren: And when I was at my heaviest, my behaviors were not healthy. Annie: Right. Lauren: So, you know, focusing on those healthy behaviors, I have settled in the middle. Annie: Yeah. And, you know, one of the ways, we've talked about this before, one of the ways, I think the easiest ways to kind of what we're talking about almost is process versus outcome goals. And a lot of times women have outcome goals. They want to be the size eight. They want to be the size four, they want to be 130 pounds, 150 pounds, whatever it is. And those are all outcome based goals, which are fine. But I think what's really, really a key is to, if that's a goal of yours, to also think about how you're going to get there and write goals around the how. So okay, you want to run a marathon? Like how am I going to get there? You want to drop 10 pounds, how am I going to get there? The how is the behaviors. Lauren: Right? And if you're in our Balance365 program, you'll notice that that's how we set up our program, right? So when you're checking off your habits, that is a process based goal. So you're checking off whether you had that, you know, half plate of vegetables or quarter plate of vegetables or whatever your goal is, you're going to check off if you did whatever your movement goal is. And those are process goals and not outcome goals. Annie: Yeah. And those are things that we can control more often than not. Lauren: Right. Annie: Versus our weight. Like I can do all the right things and for whatever reason, still not hit that goal weight. And I see that happen a lot. We see that happen a lot where women are exercising, they're eating some more fruits and vegetables, they're getting more sleep and they step on the scale and their weight hasn't budged and they feel like deflated. They're like, "Ugh, this was worthless. I didn't do anything. I'm not any further along towards my goal." And it's like, "Wait a minute, you're exercising, you're eating fruits and vegetables, you're sleeping more, you're doing all these really great things for your health and your body. Like, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater just because you didn't lose a pound." Lauren: Right. Annie: The last point I want to make when it comes to, can you control your weight? And I just, this has been absolute ultimate freedom for me is to accept the body type you have and work with it, not against this. And we oftentimes make the comparison between Jen's body and my body because Jen and I are pretty close in age. We've both had three babies. We're both personal trainers. We're about the same height, but there is probably, I don't know what she weighs now, but, there's probably about 50 pounds, 40, 50 pound difference between the two of us and for Jen to look like me or for me to look like Jen is just, like, ridiculous to think that that could happen. That's kind of what, going back to what we were talking about it at the beginning of the podcast about, you know, to think that I could just diet like Jennifer Aniston and therefore look like Jennifer Aniston is just absurd. Right? Lauren: Right. Yes. Annie: But honestly, this has given me, accepting my body type has given me so much peace of mind and like, I can just own my big thighs and my broad shoulders and I don't feel like I have to, like, whittle them down because I'm not, like, I'm not going to, I can, again, like Traci Mann says, I can maybe be a little bit heavier, a little bit lighter within that range. I'm still going to have thick thighs. Like it just, you know, and for a girl that her first diet and exercise book was Thin Thighs. Like, that's all I've ever wanted was the long lean legs. My mom had long, beautiful lean legs and I was like, "Why didn't I? Why did I get my dad's legs?" But now that I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to have thick thighs and that's just the way it is and this is what works for my body and Oh, guess what? They can actually be a really powerful asset in the gym. And these are some aspects that I like about them." I don't love everything about them. That's okay. But again, like I don't love everything about my kids all the time. I still love them. Lauren: Right. Annie: It's like, it doesn't have to, like, you don't have to love every single aspect of your body to love it as a whole, which is something we've also talked about. But, making peace with like, "Okay, I've got a big nose or I've got small hands or big trap," I don't know, whatever it is that you feel like you've been working to fight, like, making peace with that has been really, really impactful in my body acceptance journey. Lauren: Yeah. And one thing I want to circle back to because, I was going to mention this too and you mentioned it and I think it can be really powerful for people, is taking your body type, right? Cause like we have mentioned multiple times in this podcast, you can change a range of your body, your body fat, your weight, but you're not going to change your body type, like that is not going to change. So looking at your body type and think you can think about like, okay, so what is with this body type? Like what am I going to be good at? What does my body type give me an advantage in? And like for Annie, that's like weightlifting and powerlifting and being strong and so you can look at what is that for you. And it might help with this acceptance piece and this body love piece because it's not all about what you look like, but at the same time being, having your body help you be good at something can be really empowering too. Annie: Yeah. That's, we say when you look at your body like an instrument instead of an ornament. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: You know, what? Like, okay, what does, you know and being grateful for what my body does allow me to do or can help me do, can also be really, really special. But, I think that that's, you know, there's a lot of ways you can work on self love and body acceptance, but, that has been really, really powerful for me to just say like, "This is my body and it's, you know, maybe not what I've spent a lot of my years working towards. But like it's, it's still pretty great. It's not better or worse than any other type of, than your body, then Jen's body, than Jennifer Aniston's body, like this is my body and I'm going to take care of it the best way I can, like, thick thighs and all. Lauren: And you know, it's, it's funny because there are a lot of women out there who idolize your body type. Annie: I know. Yeah. That's been, so people, the funny thing is, is this happens to me a lot, which I love, I'm appreciative, but women will comment on the things that like I feel the most self conscious about. You know, like, oh, I, you know, or the funny thing is about my arms. I'll get a lot of comments about my arms. And it's like, well, if you look at the back of my arms, they're covered in stretch marks and it's, which I'm fine with. I again, I've made peace with, it's like I had stretch marks way before pregnancy. I had stretch marks on my arms and my hips when I hit puberty, I just, you know, just genetics and growing and- Lauren: I do too, I have them on my legs. Annie: Yeah. And I think it's just so interesting. And I do this to other women. Women can see beauty in my body or find appreciation in my body or aspects of my body. And then the same elements on their body, they hate on, they berate themselves, they have shame about, and it's like, "Hey, you know what? We all have a lot more in common than we probably think we do stretch marks and cellulite and pimples and gray hairs and wrinkles. And should I keep going?" Lauren: All of it. It's all normal. Annie: It is all normal. If you have a body, you probably have a lot of that or all of it. Some of it. If you have none of it, then that's cool too. Lauren: That's fine too. We love all bodies. Annie: We do. We are pretty inclusive here. So anyways, so I just want to recap. You know, it boils down to what Secrets from the Eating Lab Traci Mann showed, that Linda Bacon and Body Respect has done some extensive research on is that our genes and biology play a pretty big role in our weight. And it's not as simple as you can control it all and you can have the body you want. It's not as simple as you don't have any control at all. It's somewhere in the middle. And what we would encourage you to do is find the weight range that you can live your best life at, your healthiest life at, where you aren't working tirelessly to, you know, maintain a certain weight that's above or below that weight range that allows you to do the things, the activities, the behaviors that you want to do and feel good about yourself. Lauren: Can I add one more little thing? Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Can we talk for just a second about body composition changes? Because this is a hunch I have because I don't think any studies have been done. I asked Doctor Traci Mann on that podcast, and I don't, I don't know of any studies that have been done, but this weight range seems to be not totally, like it's weight, right? It's not just like a fat percentage range, right? Like we have seen people change their body composition and their weight stays the same. And, so I was talking with someone in our Balance365 program last week, who was worried about working to, she wanted to lose weight for many reasons and different reasons, health reasons, and just not feeling comfortable in her body, right. And, but she was put off by this whole weight range topic. Like "Should I even bother?" Was like the kind of talk we were having. And one thing is acceptance, doing your healthy habits, your behavior-based goals. And then also I think for a lot of people, something really important is building muscle, is keeping your muscle. And I know Annie you have experienced with that, even more than I do if you want to just talk about that. Annie: Yeah. Well, my weight range, has, I guess since since I've quit dieting, which has been six, seven years, it's been a process of over the course of six, seven years, has stayed probably within 10 pounds. But I think, I've also had, you know, some babies in there, my body composition within that 10 pounds has changed pretty dramatically. And, you know, I attribute, so when Dr Traci Mann is talking about a weight range, I feel like that is absolutely me. For me to drop below my, that 10 pound weight range, it takes a lot, a lot of effort and I cannot sustain, I've tried it many times, just more just as an experiment. I've had some performance goals that I've had a hunch that maybe if I were a little bit lighter doing things like Crossfit, gymnastics would come more easily. I just can't do it. Like, and I shouldn't say I can't, I'm not willing to, to make the sacrifices and the changes that would go along with achieving that weight loss, at least not in this point in time. And I say that very objectively, I'm not, I'm not emotionally tied to my weight anymore. But my body composition has changed quite a bit. And I would say, although my weight is in the same range, my body looks different. I have considerably more muscle and less fat. Lauren: And I would echo that too. I'm about almost a year and a half postpartum and I am sort of getting to the lower end of my weight range. Like I can just tell based on my past experiences and you know, and, but my composition is different because I have not been working out as much as before I got pregnant. Right. Because I had a baby and a lot of things have changed and I've been doing the minimum exercise that, you know, I've just been doing what I can and that's good enough for me. But I know that if I want those body composition changes, it's not going to be me losing more weight. It's going to be me adding more muscle, pretty much. Annie: Yeah, absolutely. Which, you know, just in my experience when a lot of women come to me and they say they want to lose weight or they want to look more muscular or they want to look like they lift, that's something I hear common. You know, I just, I want to look like I lift, I want to have more muscle. What they mean is they want more muscle, less fat, not even necessarily weight loss. They and that's, you know, to each their own. But that's me, that's, you know, I really don't care what the scale weight says. I want to be able to do the things that I want to do in the gym and do the activities that allow me to play with my kids and go skiing and, you know, have the stamina and the energy and do fun tricks to with the kettlebell. Lauren: Yes, that's the best part. Annie: One arm push ups maybe eventually. But yeah. So, but I think that's just getting clear on what you really mean, you know, when you're talking about like, if the scale said x amount of weight, would that really change anything if you look the same or, you know? Lauren: No. Annie: Yeah, it wouldn't. Yeah, that's a good point. Lauren: Yeah. So I just wanted to add that little caveat because I've heard people in the interwebs, I've read conversations about this being a negative thing, right? This set weight range and it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be a negative thing. One, It gives you a lot of freedom, right? When you realize, like you had said, it's not all on you, like you can try as hard as you can try, but you're not going to change your body type. But also you can, even though if you may not be able to change your weight any further, you can change your body composition if that's a goal of yours. Annie: Absolutely. And yeah, I really side on the, like, if you feel like you've been dieting and your body is really, like, fighting you because it's, you feel like you're hungry all the time or you don't have a desire to get up and move or exercise because you don't have any energy or your sleep is crap. Like these are things that we would expect and that's normal. And to me that's like, "Oh good. It's not me. It's everyone. It's, like, I'm not just lazy. I'm not just weak. I don't need more self self discipline or willpower." Like, that's, you know, I think that's honestly, I think that that's as a fitness professional, I think that's a lazy excuse to tell a client like, "Oh, this is your fault. You know, you did this, you just need to be more dedicated. You just need more willpower." It's like, if that's the only solution or the only answer I have for someone that's coming to me with some goals, that's like, I'm not a good coach. Lauren: Right. And this is where, you know, education comes in, right? Because for that specific, you know, for that personal trainer, it may be easy for them, right? Because that's their genetics and that's their weight range that they can easily maintain. But that doesn't mean that that's true for everyone else. Annie: Or fitness and food are their profession. And- Lauren: and they work tirelessly. Annie: They work tirelessly to be in the gym and they get a lot of movement because they're, you know, in the gym, from 8:00 AM to 5:00 PM working and helping people exercise and their environment is curated to support those goals. You know, that's, I would try to be really cautious about how I talk about my exercise because, you know, I find myself just with my job in the gym multiple times a week. So it's easy for me to show up 30 minutes early and get a quick workout. It's not like that for everyone. You know, I have a little bit of a leg up just because of my profession. Lauren: Right? Annie: Yeah. All right, good talk. This was good. Lauren: Good talk. Annie: Good chat. Lauren: We got a little off track, but- Annie: Well, let's, no, you know, sometimes it goes sideways but I think- Lauren: Hopefully they enjoy the conversation. Annie: Yeah. Well yeah, I mean if they made it this far. Lauren: Congratulations to you! Annie: You win! If you want to continue the discussion, if you want to, you know, revisit the podcast with Traci Mann, we did ask her like, "Okay, how do you find this weight range that's right for you?" And really what she's offered was trial and error. It was like, it's really person specific. There's no, like we can't offer a flow chart, you know, like, is this, you know, is this yes or no? That would be really cool if we could, but if you want help navigating and exploring like "Am I in a weight range that's comfortable for me?" Maybe it's a little bit higher than you thought or you want to move to the lower end of that weight range and you need some help with your habits and your behaviors. Please join us in our free Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms, we'd love to help you. There's a lot of really great women in there, we're in there. Lauren, Jen and I are in there often answering questions and we'd love to see you in there to continue with the discussion. Yeah? Lauren: Yes, please. Annie: Yeah. Alright. Thanks, Lauren. We'll talk to you later. Lauren: Alright, bye.

In today’s episode, Annie and Lauren guide us through five easy ways to simplify a fitness routine. So often we overcomplicate things and that leads to no workouts at all. It doesn’t have to be that way! With these practical tips you can make working out a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable. What you’ll hear in this episode: How we overthink food and exercise Does a workout need to be sweaty and exhausting to be effective? How to get started if you aren’t moving at all NEAT - what is it and why does it matter? Muscle confusion - is it real? The value of doing the same workouts repeatedly Finding the sweet spot between consistency and boredom Why you should focus on large muscle groups Do you really need equipment? Why bodyweight workouts are great “What do I wear?” and other barriers that are easier to overcome than you think Overcoming perfectionism and managing our own expectations How to build a backup plan The value of small, sustainable consistency over the long term   Resources: Balance365Life on Instagram Cosmic Kids Yoga Workout Wednesday where you don’t have to get off the floor https://www.instagram.com/p/BrAu5OLHcQj/ ) Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers the honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Hey, hey, thanks for listening to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio. Today's episode is all about how to simplify your fitness routine. So often we see women with the best of intentions overthinking exercise, and it ultimately prohibits them from taking consistent action or any action altogether. If that's you, this episode is a must listen. Lauren and I give you five ways to pare down your approach to fitness so you can get in some exercise and get on with your day. By the way, on this episode, Lauren and I talk a lot about our workouts we share on Instagram every Wednesday. If you're not already, be sure to follow us on Balance365Life on Instagram so you can snag a new free workout every Wednesday. Enjoy. Lauren, welcome to the show. How are you? Lauren: I am good. How are you? Annie: Good. What are you up to today? Lauren: Just getting back into, like, work week because last week I think your kids were all out of school and my kids were all out of school and I was so happy to drop them off this morning. I feel like real life again. Annie: Agreed. The snow days. They are a fun surprise once in a while to like, "Hey, let's, like, go do some snow stuff" or- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like just chill in our PJ's all day. But I was ready to get back to the routine. Lauren: Yeah, we were off for a week and a half, so it was like almost another, like, Christmas break. It was like, "Ah!" Annie: Yes. Which ,when you're not planning for it and you're still trying to get all your work things done, it's like, it can be a little bit stressful. Lauren:  Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So what did you do last night, by the way? You posted on Instagram a fancy photo. Lauren: Oh, we went to go see the Phantom of the Opera. Annie: That's fun. Lauren: In Detroit. Yeah, it was fun. It was the first time I'd ever seen it live. Annie: So you skipped the Super Bowl. Lauren: Yeah. Well when we bought the tickets we didn't know what was the Super Bowl. So it wasn't, like, an on purpose thing, but we still went cause we spent a lot of money on the tickets. Annie: Is James a football fan? Was he? Lauren: Not really, I mean he'll watch it but he's not like a big fan. So- Annie: I didn't even realize until the third quarter that the Rams are now in LA, not St. Louis. Lauren: Oh, I don't even know who the Rams are. Annie: Well, they used to be the Saint Louis Rams and then it was like the LA Rams and I'm like, "I thought the Rams were in Saint Louis." Lauren: So you can just move? Annie: I guess. I dunno, I'm not into pro football. Lauren: I'm in Detroit and the Detroit Lions aren't so great anymore. I guess they used to be. But they haven't been in a long time. So, yeah. Annie: Well, I'm in Des Moines and we don't have a pro football team. So college football is much, much more popular here. Lauren: Yeah, we have good college football too. Annie: So you and I are talking about fitness today, simplifying your fitness routine. And this topic kind of came to us because I think the three of us were discussing essentially how women overthink it. Everything- Lauren: Everything. Annie: Like nutrition and fitness. But we're going to start tackling fitness. But women overthink it and it's like they get so caught up in these small rocks and the small details that they almost become paralyzed and they, like, just don't do anything at all. And it's part mindset and part just like basic information on how exercise can look and can work in your life. Because I know, I mean, it's easy for me to say as a personal trainer, I find myself in the gym just naturally with clients or coaching class or whatever. But I realize that not everyone has a love for fitness or a passion for fitness like I do, which is why it's great to have you on the podcast, not to throw you under the bus, but you owned that, like, fitness is not like something that you just love to do. Lauren: It's the first thing that goes for me when I get in a busy season or stressed out and I'm sorry about my voice, I'm just getting over a cold. But yeah, it's the first thing that like gets chopped off for me. Annie: Yeah. Which I think is really common for a lot of people. Like it feels like, kind of almost like a luxury to some people, that if they have the time they'll do it. But oftentimes it's kind of a catch 22. Like you aren't going to have the time unless you make the time and- Lauren: Right. And like, I'll get in the habit and it'll be good. But it takes the longest for me, it seems like to get into that habit and then it's the first one that's the easiest that drops off. So I'm just kind of constantly going back and forth. In and out, which at this point with, you know, two little kids, I'm okay with that. Annie: It's good enough. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So today we just want to give you five ways to simplify your fitness routine and some of its mindset related, some of it's actual practical advice. But I want to preface this by saying that all movement counts, and this can be a really huge mindset shift for a lot of people in our communities. We've seen this. It's, what we hear commonly is, "Walking doesn't count," or "I didn't break a sweat so it's not enough or it wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't sore the next day, so it must not have been effective." And so often people think that they have to be drenched and exhausted and sweaty and on the verge of throwing up for a workout to be effective or for, to exercise to get any benefit out of exercise. And that's just not true. Right? Lauren: Right? Yeah. And I'll also add too, like if you're in a really stressful season of your life, like if you're newly postpartum or just, you're in a really stressful period, something like walking is actually going to be, can be more beneficial than stressing your body out more with an intense workout. Right? Annie: Absolutely. Yeah, they're smart, smart choices. And smart choices don't always feel the most physically taxing, you know, but they're still good choices. Okay, so let's, let's dive into it. The first suggestion to help simplify your fitness routine is simply to level up. And what we mean by that is you don't have to go from zero to 60 overnight. If you're not currently moving at all, even just five minutes is a step in the right direction. But what we see so often as people are like, "Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to start exercising and I'm going to do this thing" and Sunday night they like write up, this used to be me, so I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I'd write out like all these workouts, I'd write out seven days of workouts and it would have this like cardio element, strength element. And then I do a little stretching and I mean honestly I'd probably pair this with all of my food changes too and I'd have this little journal and look really, really great on paper and I might be able to do it for a couple days. But then it's like, "Oh my gosh, like, this is just too much. I can't stick with it." Or I was really motivated at the start of the week on Monday, but now it's Thursday and I don't want to get up early anymore and I'm tired and my body's sore and I can't sustain it. So I would just quit. And that's, we see that kind of pendulum shift. Like they pull this, you know, if you can imagine one of those pendulums, you pull that ball back all the way to one side and that's you doing nothing. And then people ramp it up and they let it go and they do all the things and then they just swing from nothing to all of it, nothing to all of it. And so if you're at a stage where you're not doing anything, doing a little something is a benefit. If you find yourself maybe a little bit more moderate exercise and you want to get some more benefit than you can level up, you can increase the intensity or the duration or try a new activity. But the idea isn't that you have to jump from, like make big leaps. You can just make small steps to level up your fitness routine as you see fit. Lauren: For sure. One of my favorite places for people to start that I like to suggest is if you're someone who's doing nothing right now, I like to suggest starting with something that takes no extra time, right? So, like, Simply parking in the furthest parking spot when you're going shopping or when you're at work and taking the stairs instead of the elevator and just adding those little extra movements throughout your day, they can make a big difference if you do them every time. Annie: Absolutely. This is, what you're describing is, I know you know this, just for our listeners that may not be familiar with this term, it's called NEAT. It's a non-exercise activity thermogenesis. And this is something we actually cover inside our Balance365 program because, and we can put this infographic in our show notes for you, but it's a little bit harder to describe visually over an audio podcast. But essentially if you saw the, how NEAT contributes to energy expenditure or calories burned it, it accounts for more than an actual workout more often than not. So in other words, all the daily movement that you do throughout the day, the chores, the chasing after kids, the picking up kids, hauling groceries, running up and down stairs, mopping the floors, doing the dishes, all of that that you do, actually all that movement that you do actually accounts for more energy expenditure than an hour in the gym more often than not. And, but so often people are like, "Ugh, you want me to walk around the playground while my kids are playing or swinging?" It's like, "That's not, like, that's not worth it." And actually it really is. It all adds up. Okay. Number two, this is one of my favorite ways to simplify your fitness routine and it's to repeat the same workout over and over again and changing up your workout every week or every day can require a crap ton of mental energy, especially if you're the one that's like dictating how you should change it up, which is what I was describing just a little bit ago. You know, every Sunday night I would scour Shape magazine and a Muscle and Fitness Her and Health magazine and like piece together these workouts and I'd be like, "Okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna do this workout and then I'm going to do this yoga workout and then I'm going to do this Youtube workout and then I'm going to write my own strength leg workout or whatever."And I would have something different every single day. And that can require just a lot of effort. And additionally, I know a lot of people have heard the idea of muscle confusion, right? Have you heard that? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: You've heard of it? Yeah. It's been kind of used as a marketing tactic, as a "pro" to, like, workouts that do constantly vary their workouts. Right? And I don't need to name any names, but I think you can think of what talking about and you might have heard comments like you need to keep your muscles guessing or you need to keep your muscles confused. And that doing so increases the gains, right? Like you'll get stronger, you'll get fitter, you'll get leaner faster if you keep your muscles guessing. But it's pretty much garbage. And in fact, in my personal and professional experience, the reason people don't get the gains thereafter is because they don't stick with anything long enough to actually get them.   And science backs this debunking of the muscle confusion philosophy too because our bodies, specifically our muscles, respond to a philosophy or principle called progressive overload, which means that you train a specific muscle group or a movement pattern, progressively adding intensity or duration over a long period of time and so hard days are followed by easier days or longer periods of intensity or followed by longer periods of rest and recovery. But either way, to get better at something, repetition and consistency are key. So you don't have to expend a bunch of mental energy or even physical energy thinking, "I'm going to use kettlebells and then I'm going to do cardio and then I'm going to do strength and then I'm going to do some mobility and then I'm going to do all these things." If you really just want to get stronger, if you want to increase your ability to run, you just need to run, you know, like, run a little bit faster, run a little bit longer, you can vary it that way. Now on the flip side, I know some people are listening to this and they are going to say that repeating the same workout over and over again is boring. Lauren: I would say that. Annie: Yeah, which I totally understand too. And honestly that's one of the reasons I really enjoy Crossfit is because it has a lot of variation to it. They use a lot of different pieces of equipment. They train a lot of different movements. They vary the sets and the reps schemes. And I think it's really important that you find that sweet spot between consistency and boredom. So if you find yourself getting bored and then you're just not doing any workout at all, like, it's okay to switch it up. I'm not saying don't switch it up, I'm just saying it's not necessary to switch it up. Lauren: Right. Like if that's something that's keeping you from doing something because you think you have to find something new to do all the time. Annie: I mean, for me, for example, I trained powerlifting for almost five years. I squat, benched and deadlifted every week for almost five years. And yeah, that was boring. There were some workouts where I was like "Ugh, snooze fest, five sets of eight again or three sets of five again." But guess what? I got really good at squat, benching and deadlifting and, again, this is a, you don't have to, if you want to vary your workout, if that's something you like to do because it's fun for you and you can do it, great. But if you're feeling stuck in the overwhelm of, "Oh my gosh, I have to think of something every day new to do" and that's keeping you from doing any exercise at all, I'm giving you permission to just cut it out. Like, it's not necessary. Lauren: So something really important for me, which is, I think, what you're just talking about is, like, decreasing the mental load of my workout. So for me, it's, like, going to a class where I literally just have to show up and like, I don't have to think, I just go there and show up. Or another thing I've been doing since I haven't been going to classes recently is, just shameless plug for the Wednesday Balance365 workouts that we post on Instagram is I've just been doing those and we have enough now where I can do them, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday or whatever, and just cycle through them. And I, again, don't have to think about it. I just open the app, look at the picture and do it. Annie: Right. And I think if you pay attention to those workouts, you'll see that they almost always have some of the basic elements in there. They'll have a squat, a hinge, a core, a pulling variation. Like there's still some basic elements of a well rounded fitness program. Is it going to help you deadlift 315 pounds? No, but that goes back to our first suggestion to level up. If that's a goal of yours, then, then you're probably, you know, at a different space than a Wednesday workout. That can be a great supplement. But the Wednesday workouts are great for people that are like, "I don't know what to do. I just need someone to tell me what to do." And again, that goes back to why like Crossfit, because I train people a lot and I think up their programs really well. Annie: If I left up to my own devices to write my own program, I would be doing the things that I like all the time and not the stuff that I don't like and probably should be doing and need to get better at. And, I don't want to think, like, I'm just, like, "Just tell me what to do and I'll just do it." And so I can just focus on doing the workout, get in, get out and be done. Lauren: Yup. Annie: Okay. Number three, focus on large muscle groups can help you to simplify your fitness routine. And by large muscle groups, I mean compound movements. And what I mean by compound movements is movements that are using utilizing more than one joint at a time. So a lot of times I'll see kind of these, what I call bodybuilding exercises, where they're focusing on just one muscle group, which is great if you're a bodybuilder, but they'll do, you know, three exercises for a bicep or three exercises to work your quads or four exercises to hit your hamstrings from all these different angles. And again, that's great if you're interested in bodybuilding and isolation movements. But if you're short on time and you're looking for the most bang for your buck, you can either do a lot of exercises working one muscle group, or you can do a fewer exercises that recruit more muscle groups, more joints, like squats, deadlifts, pull ups. So again, that's why when you see going back to those Wednesday workouts, when you see those workouts, they're almost always compound movements, right? They're thrusts, it's a squat with an overhead press. It's a burpee. It's a RDL. It's a deadlift variation. It's a Kettlebell swing- Lauren: Walking lunges. Annie: Walking lunges, which is everyone's favorite, right? Everyone's like, "I hate walking lunges, that and burpees." Lauren: I'll take walking lunges over burpees any day. Annie: Maybe we should do both. Lauren: I'll take anything over burpees any day. And supermans or superwomans. I do not like those. Annie: Is that a shoulder thing? Lauren: I don't know. Annie: Oh, I like superwomans. See the reason why superwoman's, just a side note is, in a lot of, excuse me, a lot of our workouts is because I like to have bodyweight workouts for people that don't have access to equipment for whatever reason, but to do pulling exercises to work your posterior chain, to have like a rowing, pulling exercise with no weight, that's difficult to do. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like a lot of times you need weight and superwomen, which, if you're not familiar with that exercise where you lay down on your belly and you lift your arms and your legs, like you're flying like a superwoman, at the same time to work your backside of your body, it can be really beneficial. But- Lauren: I still do it, I just- Annie: You don't like those? Lauren: It's not my favorite. Annie: Oh, interesting. Lauren: Side note. Annie: So maybe the next Wednesday workout should be all of Lauren's least favorite exercises- Lauren: Yeah, burpees, superwomans, what else? I hate inchworms. Annie: Lunges. Oh, those are fun. And kids like them too. Like does Elliot ever workout with you? Lauren: Sometimes she does. She usually just takes my stuff and then goes and plays with it. Over the, I want to say winter break, the snow thing, school closing. I don't know why I can't think of a name for it. We actually started doing Cosmic Kids Yoga and she really likes that. Annie: Oh, that's fun. Lauren: Yeah. It's cute. Annie: I don't know if my kids would be into that or not. We should link that in the show notes. That's a cute, a fun way to get moving with your kiddos. Okay, we digress. Anyways, moving on. So focus on large muscle groups, compound movements. If you need ideas the Wednesday Workouts are a great idea. We also have a YouTube channel. If you're just looking for workouts. Balance365 on YouTube where we have a fair amount of free workout videos, which we take you through, start to finish. They're mostly under 20 minutes. I narrate all of them to give you cues and tips so you can follow along. You can press pause, you can write down the workouts and take them into your garage or your gym and do on your own. If you don't want to follow along with the video. But they're pretty good workouts. Lauren: Yeah, they are really good. I enjoy them. Annie: I mean, I wrote them, so you better agree. Anyways, okay, tip number four to help simplify your fitness routine is to get rid of the gear. You don't need a bunch of fancy equipment. That can be fun and it can make it really exciting and exhilarating, but body workouts are great. Bodyweight workouts are great, excuse me. They can be super effective, super efficient and minimal equipment works well too. I personally can get a heck of a great workout with just one kettlebell. So don't let this idea of "I need all the resistance bands, I need multiple sets of dumbbells. I need sizes of kettlebells. I need a barbell, I need a ball, I need a mat, I need a timer. You don't need all of that stuff to get in a really, really great workout. And in fact, I just did a bodyweight workout on Monday and I was sore. Now I say sore. That's not an effective way of deciding if your workout was great or not, but you can, my point is you can make body workouts challenging or not if you want. And again, I've been lifting for years and years and years and I still do bodyweight workouts, a fair amount or body weight movements, a fair amount. So, I think, I wonder a lot of times if people kind of poopoo bodyweight workouts or workouts with minimal equipment or workouts that don't have a ton of gear or equipment or cardio because they think, "Oh, that's not very hard or that can't be very hard if I'm not using a ton of weight." And I would challenge you to try it because they can be pretty difficult. And even, I'm just throwing this in there, cause I notice a lot of our Balance365ers do this, that even your pj's can double as workout clothes. And again, this is one of the barriers that I see women kind of get hooked up on is "What do I wear?" Or they're trying to wake up early and do a workout and they're like, "Ugh, I have to get dressed, find my clothes, find my sports bra, the right tennis shoes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just too much." And so we've seen a fair amount of women in our community just work out in their pajamas. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Bra, no bra up to you. Whatever you're comfortable in. But especially if you're, like, working out at home, like, who cares? Right? Like workout in what's ever comfortable with you. Your gym might have some guidelines. I know at the first gym I worked at you had to wear a shirt and that sort of stuff, but get up and work out in your pj's or do a workout in your pj's right before bed. Like don't let that be a barrier to working out. Don't, you don't have to overthink like, "Oh, I don't have on the right clothes." And again, we've even seen women walk on the treadmill or take a walk in their work clothes over their lunch hour or in jeans, you know, that works and it counts and it's good enough. Lauren: Yeah, I wear, leggings most pretty much every day. So I just, I literally do home workouts just in my clothes. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Like, you know, it's 15, 20 minutes and I'm done. I don't have to change my whole outfit and change it back. Annie: Yeah, half the time I don't even throw my hair up in a ponytail anymore. I'm like, I'm that girl. I'm that girl, I cringe to say this, but I used to kind of poke fun at girls that worked out with their hair down. I'm like, "How do they do that? Like how, like how, like aren't they hot? Aren't they sweaty? Isn't in their face?" And now I'm that girl. I'm like, "You know what? I have five minutes. I'm going to do a couple of movements as, until I run out of time and that's going to be good enough." I don't even put my hair in a ponytail, like, just go. Just move. Again. It all counts. It all adds up. Lauren: Yup. Annie: Okay. And our last suggestion is kind of what we've been talking about all along is to help you simplify your fitness routine, and this is definitely a big mindset shift. It's become one of our biggest mantras in our community is "All or something." And the all or something approach to fitness is life changing in my opinion. Because again, I think I've already said this, but women and men, but we work with women, women poopoo workouts because they aren't hard enough. They aren't long enough. They don't use enough weight. It doesn't hit all the elements of cardio strength and mobility. And as a result ,we say that's not good enough. So we just don't do anything at all. "It's not a perfect workout, so I'm not going to do it." And how many times have you let not being able to do the perfect workout keep you from doing anything at all? Right? Lauren: A lot of times. Annie: A lot. Lauren: Yes. Before the last few years. All the time. Annie: Yes. Lauren: If I look at my workouts from, especially the last year since I've had Benny, none of them are crazy intense or super long or perfect or the most effective that they could possibly be, but I'm doing something. Annie: Yes. And that's really all it boils down to. Like, you know, we've said this before in other podcasts, but people get so stuck in living in that all or nothing, they're either on the wagon or off the wagon. They're right, wrong. They're good, bad, black, white, that they forget that there's a whole host of options in between there. There's this big gray continuum in the middle of those two extremes. So as for fitness, it's like you're either not doing any exercise at all on a given day or given week or a month, or you're doing all the things. Like those are not your only two options. You can take a 10 minute walk or do three sets of glute bridges. I mean, I even wrote a workout for Workout Wednesday, we can reshare it, where I said, you don't even have to get up off the floor for this one. Lauren: I did that one. Annie: I know, I've been there where you're like, you're playing on the ground with your kids or you're laying on the floor or whatever and you just cannot be bothered. Lauren: There were superwomans in there. Annie: Glute bridges, clamshells, pushups. We can do all the workouts from the floor, but I imagined people just like slithering off their couch, like sliding to the floor. But again, is it, is it perfect? Is it the most intense workout of your life? Is it going to leave you so exhausted or you can be drenched in sweat? Are you going to be extremely sore? Probably not, but it counts. It counts. Lauren: And you know what? The benefits of exercise come when you do them consistently, right? So if you're like "Go hard or go home", well, you go hard for a week and then you go home for the next four months, right? Like that's, that's not really doing anything for you. If you were to take a walk every day for four months, then that would be, you'd be in a much better place. Annie: Right, or say you, I mean even just by the math or by the minutes, you say, "I'm going to do, you go really hard and you do 10 workouts over the course of four weeks," you know, five days a week for two weeks, that's 10 workouts. Or you say "I'm going to do three workouts a week because that's more sustainable for me, that's more enjoyable. I can actually fit that into my life." In the longterm over the course of six months, like we're looking at a lot more workouts and I'm guessing at the end of six months you're going to be a lot stronger. And in fact, before we started recording this, Jen had some audio problems so she couldn't join us today, but she was saying that she's currently getting, getting really strong and she's the strongest she's been in a really long time and Jen's owned that she's had periods of exercising kind of ebb and flowing, but she's been working at it for eight weeks and she joked about how like that's, you know, "I've been working at this for eight weeks now. Like, I should see all the gains, like how it's kind of a short period of time." I think a lot of people in mainstream fitness think eight weeks is a really long time. And in the grand scheme of things over the course of the year, eight weeks is pretty minimal. So you have to be able to think, like, what can I do for the long term? And over the course of eight weeks, 10 minute walks, that adds up a lot over the course of eight months. Like so don't poo poo exercises just because you can't get it all in. And one of the things that I stole from James Clear, we also have in our Balance365 program is to have kind of a backup plan. And one of my favorite "all or something tools is the if/then statement. Do you remember this? We've talked about this, right? Lauren: Yup, Yup. Annie: That, so what that looks like to me is, "Okay, if I can't get in my workout over lunch, then I will take a 10 minute walk before go home." Or "If I can't get in a full workout this morning, then I will do 30 minutes of it," you know? But like again, you have to, it's just a backup plan. It's to help you think of like, "Okay, I can't do this, but what can I do?" Not, "Well, I can't do this. I can't do anything." It's like, what's the something here? And you know, that's a really good example, Annie. A lot of times, you know, they'll be running late. This happens to me a lot. I drop my kids off at school and if we don't get out the door on the right time, then I'm going to be five minutes late for my class at the gym. And there's so many times where I'm like, "Oh, I'm late. I'm just, I don't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't even go." I'm like, "You know what? I can show up five, 10 minutes late and still get in a great workout. It's shorter, you know, I might have to play catch up a little bit, do my warm up, and then jump in. Or I might have to stay a little bit later, but I can still do something instead of just saying, oh, I missed it so I can't do anything." Lauren: Right. And I think having that if/then statement planned out in advance is also really helpful. So because for me, I know that when things aren't going my way, like when I'm rushed and flustered, that's not the time for me to be like, "Okay, well what can I do?" Like, I'm more likely in that moment to say "Screw it," but if I have this planned out and I'm like, "No, if I can't do this, then I will at least do this." Then I'm like, you know, it makes me feel that much better about doing it in the moment. Annie: Yeah. And let's be honest, like, if you're listening to this, you're probably a busy woman. You either, you know, whether you work or not or how many kids you have, like we're all really, you know, our schedules are packed as much as, as we'd like to admit that they've, like, we have time, like we have time to exercise but if kids get sick, school gets canceled, things come up, if you're like me, forget about projects that you're supposed to have done for Lauren and you're like, "Oh crap, I have to do this now." And like you said at the beginning of the show, Lauren, exercise is one of the first things that gets chopped off the list for a lot of people- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: But maybe instead of chopping it all off, can you just chop off some of it? You know, like, can you do the something? Lauren: Right. Annie: Yes. Okay. Let's do a quick recap. Ways to simplify your fitness. The first one was to level up. You don't have to go from zero to 60 overnight. You can just take small steps and just keep leveling up and up and up and up and up until you're at a fitness level that you're comfortable with. Step two, you can repeat the same workout. We debunked the idea of muscle confusion, that you don't need to keep your muscles guessing. And in fact, the opposite can be true, that consistency and repetition are needed to get #gains. Step three, focus on large muscle groups, especially if you're short on time. You can do a bunch of isolation exercises, which is great if that's the style of exercise you like or if you're into bodybuilding. It's not necessary though, which is why you see us using a lot of movements like squats, deadlifts, pullups, pushups. You can also get rid of the gear if that's keeping you from doing any exercise at all. You don't need a ton of equipment, your PJ's can double as workout clothes. You can use just one piece of equipment or body weight workouts, it all counts and number five, "all or something" your workouts, which means if you can't do it all perfectly, then you can do something, right? Lauren: Sounds good. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Sounds like a plan. Annie: Yes. Like who doesn't want to go exercise, right? Like, let's go! Lauren: Says the person I know- Annie: I actually didn't exercise this morning. I took the day off and I am totally fine with that because rest and recovery is needed. So, I am walking the walk, right? Talking the talk. Walking the walk. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Okay. Well, thanks, Lauren. And hey, if our listeners want to continue the discussion or if they need more information on a ways to simplify their fitness, they can join our free Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook, 40,000 women worldwide. A lot of them are already working on their exercise habit or working movement into their day through their NEAT and we would love to have you in there if you aren't there, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Okay, good chat, Lauren will talk to you later. Lauren: Alright. Bye. Annie: Bye.    

We see malpractice claims result from failure to file a document or a missed deadline, but often the heart of those issues is that attorneys are stressed out, burned out, overworked, or suffering from an illness or addiction. Lauren Baptiste, founder of Acheloa Wellness, joins us today to discuss how these issues manifest in our work lives and how to conquer them to find our passions again.  Transcript: MARK B:                               Hello. This is Mark Bassingthwaighte, the risk manager with ALPS. Welcome to the latest episode of ALPS in Brief, the podcast that comes to you from the historic Florence building in beautiful downtown Missoula, Montana. I'm really excited about our guest today, Lauren Baptiste from New York. Lauren is very much involved in wellness, and as many of you know in our listening audience, wellness is a very, very significant issue in bars across the United States and certainly up [inaudible 00:00:47] by the ABA. Before we get into our conversation on wellness, Lauren, I'd love to take a little time and share some information about yourself. LAUREN BAPTISTE:          Sure. Thank you for having me. My name is Lauren Baptiste, and I am the creative founder and CEO of Acheloa Wellness. This kind of came for me because I had been in public accounting for four years. Before we even talk about what it is, it's really important that I share where I came from, because being in a Big Four, working crazy hours, is very relatable to a lot of the lawyers and the accountants and the other professionals that I work with. Being there for 10 years really empowered me to serve others in this way, knowing that we're hard-working, professional, amazing people, but sometimes the one thing that we let go of is our wellness. That's where my boutique firm came to life. MARK:                                  Very good, very good. You're working in this corporate setting and alongside attorneys. What are some of your big takeaways from that experience? LAUREN:                             It's really interesting. Over 10 years you get to see a lot, so being there was such a wonderful experience of being able to understand really what makes us tick. At the forefront of it is stress. We all are trying to do our jobs and have quality work and feel good and do it all, right? Have the families, have the friends, have the social life, have the job, have the health, but really the health is the one that goes on the back burner. That's what I saw so frequently, is that, we would let go of that, which is our essence. If we don't have our health, we really don't have anything. That's really where I felt like, "Okay, there's a problem to solve here." MARK:                                  Yes, yes. Oh, I couldn't agree more. You're the creative founder of a firm, [Ack-lea 00:02:47]? My apologies. LAUREN:                              Acheloa. MARK:                                  Acheloa. There we go, thank you. I'm just struggling with this one this morning. It's a very interesting word, Acheloa Wellness. What's the history? What does this word mean? LAUREN:                              Achelois is a minor Greek goddess, and she focused on stress and burnout and pain. When I was finding a name for my company, I felt so called to that name, because I work with men, but I really specifically have an expertise in women's hormonal health, so a lot of what I do nails into that area. As I was finding what name really served, Achelois was the muse behind my business, and so Acheloa just sounds a little bit nicer than Achelois [Well-neese 00:03:44], so that's where I changed it slightly. MARK:                                  I love that. That is great. Very cool, very cool. You talk about, you work with men and women, as I understand it here, but you're also saying you primarily focus on women. Why is that? LAUREN:                              What I've seen in my experience is that, women internalize stress. Men can internalize it, but a lot more often they'll keep it on the surface and it's easier to move through them, but if we take it like a pill, this stress, what happens is it starts to eat us from the inside out. Something that will happen is, we don't even notice it, but there's subtle shifts in our mental state, and then in our physical bodies, that can be so subtle, so simple, as much as constipation or belching or something so simple, but it actually is the first stage of a longer term disease. If over time, we have continued gas in the body, or dry skin or maybe psoriasis, rosacea, or something like that, it can become a greater, more impactful disease on our body, which nobody wants. That's why I'm here for preventative maintenance. MARK:                                  Okay. In my experience, I've been a risk manager here with ALPS for over 20 years now, and have spent a lot of time presenting and working in terms of consulting with law firms and lawyers all over the country. One of the things that I lecture about is what I would call the true cause of malpractice. Attorney impairment is really behind quite a bit of this, and I broadly define that term in terms of stress, burnout, overwork, obvious things like depression, mental illness, addictions of a variety of types. I guess what I'm getting to with this is, it impacts an employee's, or an attorney's, or staff person, whoever's impaired, it really does have an impact in the workplace setting. I guess with that in mind, and I think this is where you're going but, why should law firms, in terms of the business, care about these issues? Am I on to something? LAUREN:                              Yeah, you are on to something, and I love that you brought it there. I think what happens is that, we see things on our bodies so easily. Like, "Oh, I have a mole," or, "I have acne," right? We all point to the things that we can touch and feel, but mental health is not that. We can't just put your hand on depression or feel into anxiety, but what's happening is that it's there. The more and more I speak with individuals in this arena, the more I hear these secrets of, like, "Yeah, I had depression for years and I didn't tell anybody," or, "Yeah, I've been on anxiety medication, that's just my thing." That's where I'm like, "Wow." There needs to be a conversation and I'm so happy that the ABA came out with their wellbeing campaign, which we can talk about in a little bit, but it really focuses on mental health being so important that we get in front of this. That's where I feel so passionate about conquering stress, to start to overcome the issues of mental health that arise because of it. MARK:                                  I've talked about, in terms of my world and working for a malpractice insurer, I see one of the costs of not addressing this, not being proactive, as exposure to malpractice claims. Why do you think dates get missed, as an example, on calendars, and documents don't get filed? Depression is just one reason people can't always just muster the energy to do it, sadly, but I suspect there are other costs. Do you have some thoughts? What is your experience, in terms of failing to address these kinds of issues? LAUREN:                              I think there's a lot of ways you can look at it. I think the easiest way is to start with the self and say, "Okay, what is this costing me?" It's important that we also understand what it's costing us, because if we can't get past ourselves, it's hard to help others. If we start with ourselves, it can create a crack in the framework of our foundation of everything. If we're really not in a stable place with our mental health, it of course will have an impact on your relationships with your spouse, with your family, with your coworkers. It will have an impact on your work, it will take longer for things to get done. You'll likely be sick more, take more days out of the office. Your vacations won't be as fulfilling or happy. There's even a financial burden, just because we're not sound in our mental health. It's not just anxiety on its own. It's like, your life will surround how your emotive state really is, and that's just the individuals. We can go into the corporate and how that has a bigger impact. MARK:                                  Well, but I like the initial focus on the costs to the individual. I think at times, we don't take the time to even stop and think about that. LAUREN:                              True. MARK:                                  That's very important. Why is it important that we support females in this? LAUREN:                              It's very important that we're really taking care of everybody. I hate to say that, I'm not just focused on females. Men have stressors and midlife crises too, and there's amazing resources out there that support men, but in focusing women, I think it's important that we recognize a few things. One, that there still aren't as many female leaders in the environment at partner level than men. There's this gap in that middle-to-upper range where women will decide, "Well, it's my health or my career," or, "A family or a career," whereas that doesn't seem to be the same conversation for men. It's been one thing to really get behind that, to help women to understand, you can have it all. Maybe not at the same time, but you need to make sure that you can work and get towards those goals and do it safely for your health. MARK:                                  Do you see this wellness movement as something of a trend that may go away? Or is there more to it? LAUREN:                              I don't see it as a trend. I hope it's the beginning of something much bigger. You know, I think when we thought of salads coming to McDonald's, we're like, "Is that a trend?" MARK:                                  Yes, right. LAUREN:                              Now what's trending is, McDonald's isn't as popular, something like that. It's important that we see, wellness is coming in ... It does look good for companies to offer wellness, but really, it's a risk management issue. The quality of your people is better when they're healthier. Things will get done, like you said, on time, and the quality is so much better. It's really important that we're thinking of it not just as, "It's nice to do yoga at the office," but there is a subtle impact on the mental health by incorporating wellness into their everyday life. MARK:                                  You brought up the ABA's wellbeing campaign. Why don't you share a little bit more with our listeners about the [inaudible 00:11:35] campaign? LAUREN:                              Sure. Last year, in the fall, so it was about October 2018 I believe, there was a campaign that came out by the ABA, the American Bar Association, I think for all the lawyers, I'm sure you know. Right. It came out, and it really started to talk about the impact of mental health and substance abuse on firms.                                     What they're seeing is, it's very quick for a team to say, "Hey, let's go out and get a drink," but that one drink night over night over night can become an addiction. It can become alcoholism. It can become something that shouldn't have to be. I love that the industry is taking a stance on, let's think of more creative ways to celebrate our team. Let's think of ways to engage that conversation with that person who's been on anxiety medication for years and is hiding behind it. Let them be more authentic and up-front. I think what this is doing is, it's starting to breed compassion in the workplace, and it's breeding a better working environment, where you want to work at a place that really cares about your wellbeing as a whole. It feels like a win-win to me. MARK:                                  I agree with you. My own perspective on this is, and I agree in terms of saying, I don't see this as a trend that's going to fade away, coming at it from the risk side, I really see a shift in terms of firms learning how to identify problems once they're there. Some deal with them very well and some don't, but it's a reactive model. We are now changing, shifting gears and being proactive, creating awareness and trying to create environments up front. I see this shift as significant, and I hope that it has long-term legs. I really do. What does the term "wellness" really mean to you? LAUREN:                              That's a good question. To me, wellness is a balance of physical and emotional stability. I think by mixing the emotional, the mental and the physical, we can really feel at peace. Then once we feel that peace, we can really start to enter in the other areas of our lives with this mood of balance, because if you think of, say, a palm tree in the middle of the Caribbean, it's steady. The storms will come and go, but it's steady. It knows to weave with the storm, bounce back and forth, but its foundation is so strong. That's wellness to me. Can you keep your foundation strong regardless of the storm? Be prepared for the sunny weather too, but really appreciate that balance of what's coming and how to handle it. MARK:                                  I like that. When I talk about, again, the malpractice kinds of issues, like stress and burnout, I really do think that lawyers struggle with this, in terms of losing their foundation. They start to shift at times from ... We work to have a life, but it's start to transition into this, they live to work. That's where the foundation goes and gets out of balance. That's just my own view of it. I'd be curious, what are your thoughts, in terms of, why do lawyers, that's primarily our audience, why do you think they suffer from stress and burnout and develop these dependencies and have things like depression arise? LAUREN:                              I think to your point, you're definitely on the right path. It gets to a point where we start to lose it. If we can't be solid in ourselves through how we even eat, just think of something so simple as eating. Back in the day, we would cook our meals, or we had someone cook them for us, or something like that. Now it's just, grab what you can eat and move on. MARK:                                  Oh, I know. LAUREN:                              Think about the quality of your life in a fast-food joint. This isn't a podcast hating on fast food. I feel like that's where it's turning into. MARK:                                  No, no. LAUREN:                              It's really about what we're putting into our bodies and really caring for our bodies. That is what gives us the longevity. If we're just going from meal to meal, moment to moment, meeting to meeting, it starts to become really stressful. That's where stress really has that impact on the body. One stressful event can last up to 22 hours in the body. Just imagine that times 20,000 emails that we get in a week. Imagine that by all the meetings and the deadlines. It's inevitable that our hormonal chemistry will start to go out of balance if we're not taking care of what's most important. MARK:                                  Yes. Now, we have talked a little bit about the ABA wellbeing campaign, and as part of that process, the ABA has asked law firms to take a pledge to change, and pledge to work toward wellness and create healthy work environments. Do you have any thoughts about that? Do you think this is going to make a difference? Will it impact law firms? Do you think it may impact other industries? I'm just curious as to your thoughts about the whole pledge part of the campaign. LAUREN:                              I think it's amazing. Honestly, I think it's a stepping stone. When Google does something, we listen. Right? When these big firms are doing something, it tells the mid-tier firms, "Step up." Even a sole proprietor, and I know there's a lot of your insured that are one or two or three small lawyers working together, it's so important that, you don't have to be at the top, main firm, the biggest and most lucrative one, to still incorporate wellness. Wellness can be 15 minutes of a group setting every week that just breathes for 15 minutes, and they can call it a meditation class. It's not about having all the money, but I think we start with the initiative at the top, which is the industry, which I think is wonderful. If they're asking all of these firms to make the pledge, it's setting the standard that we hold our people not only accountable to qualifications, but quality of life. I think that will really change the industry, where people will say, "Would I rather be an accountant or a lawyer? Maybe a lawyer." That's where you can balance it. It starts now, and I think it's great. MARK:                                  Well, as we start to close out here, can you tell us a little bit, how do you work with organizations? What is it you do? LAUREN:                              Yeah, thank you for asking. That's a great question. I work with organizations in different ways. My consulting background has really helped me understand how each company is very different and their needs are different. It can be something like day-long workshops or long-term group programming, and other ways to really engage the team. I think what's really important is that there's this framework of accountability where individuals can feel inspired and supported, and organizations are helping their people be where they want to be. Without that two-sided relationship of the employer and the employee, it struggles, but having a middleman like my firm can really come in there and bridge the gap and make everyone feel that they can level up together. MARK:                                  Yes. Wonderful. How could our listeners, if they wanted to learn more, how can they contact you? How can they learn more about what you do? LAUREN:                              Sure. They can look me up online at AcheloaWellness.com. Then, yeah, they can reach out online to my email or even Instagram or LinkedIn, Acheloa Wellness. You can reach out there and find me. I'm in the inter-world, I should say. MARK:                                  Yes, yes. Well, for all of you listening, I also do want to mention that Lauren will be doing a live [inaudible 00:20:00] webinar with us in May. I believe it's May 15th. Am I right on that, Lauren? I think so. LAUREN:                              Yeah, that's right. Yeah. MARK:                                  Yes, yes. For those of you listening, look forward, we will be sending some emails out and letting everybody know when they can sign up. That should be a lot of fun. Lauren, it indeed has been a pleasure. I really appreciate your taking the time to share a little bit about yourself and your company. This is tremendously valuable in terms of wellness. I just think [inaudible 00:20:35] the issue is so significant. I really do appreciate your sitting down with us for a little bit here. For those of you in the listening audience, I hope you found something of value and interest out of today's podcast. Please don't hesitate to reach out anytime. If you have other topics of interest that you'd like to hear discussed, or if there's anybody you'd like to hear from, we'll certainly do what we can. You may reach me at mbass@alpsnet.com. Again, thank you for listening, folks. Bye bye.

Cheat meals have been a part of popular diet culture for a long time and there are even experts who promote them as being healthy. But what is the truth? Join us as Annie and Lauren unpack the assumptions that are made about cheat meals and explore what balance and moderation mean in the context of healthy, happy living. What you’ll hear in this episode: Do cheat meals boost your metabolism? Could cheat meals be negating your progress? What the experts say about cheat meals Do cheat meals provide a psychological break The Pink Polar Bear effect and cheat meals What “sugar addicted rats” really tell us about restriction Do cheat meals help you stay on track? Cycles of binge restrict - seasonal, time of day, days of the weak How to enjoy treats without cheat days The Goldilocks approach to balance What to do when your pendulum swings back How to find balance in the middle Resources: Is Sugar Addictive? 49: Diet Culture Explained Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: The philosophy of a cheat meal is based on the idea that for one meal or one day a week you can eat whatever you like and it seems to have become the standard in many mainstream diet plans. Fans of cheat meals boast that they boost your metabolism, provide a psychological break and help you stay on track with your goals but do they really? On today's episode of Balance 365 life radio Lauren and I dive into our thoughts and experiences on if cheat meals help or hurt your relationship with food and how you can actually enjoy the foods you love without relying on cheat meals. Enjoy! Lauren, it's me and you again. How are you? Lauren: Hi. I feel like we should have so Mariah Carey in the background. Annie: Oh yeah, we should have, maybe Vanessa can, our podcast editor can put some in the background since Jen's not here. Jen is not a Mariah Carey fan and Lauren and I are diehard Mariah Carey fans. Lauren: Like old school Mariah. Annie: Yeah, in fact on Saturday night there's a bar in my town that is an over 30 bar, which- Lauren: Oh my god. Annie: But the it's great because they play a lot of Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul. Lauren: Do you have to show your ID to prove that you're over 30? Annie: You don't but yeah, I just don't think many people under 30 it's really their thing. Lauren: Want to go. Annie: It's definitely an older crowd but the music is so good so it's fun just to go dancing there because it's like you're in middle school. It's like you're at those middle school, like school parties again. Lauren: And like the skating party. Annie: Yes, like Jay for roll away. Lauren: It reminds me of that meme that says there needs to be a bar, like, for people who like to have 2 drinks then go to bed before 9 o'clock. Annie: Yup, that's me. I had a couple glasses of wine at dinner then we went out dancing with my girlfriends and it was great. Lauren: Like that sounds fun. Annie: It was fun. It was, I mean, that's essentially what happens in my bathroom every morning, you know, a little dance party with Mariah Carey- Lauren: But maybe without the wine with. Annie: Yes or or maybe with a lot of coffee. Just replace the wine with coffee. Anyways,  I'm happy you're here with me today because we're talking about cheat meals and I used to be a big cheat meal fan. Did you ever do a cheat meal? Did you ever do that like? Lauren: Yes, I did lots of cheat meals. They were always like, Saturday it was like my cheat meal day. Annie: Mine was Friday night and then it kind of wiggled its way into Saturday and kind of eventually came around Sunday which we will actually talk about later today but the cheat meal was kind of a standard in a lot of diets. Lauren: Yep. Annie: I don't know if you see this too in your area but it's kind of touted as like the go to philosophy for a lot of, especially in the gym setting, I feel, like a lot of people are doing, you know, that if it fits your macros or whatever and then they have their one designated cheat meal or cheat day. But the idea is that you can eat whatever you want in that timeframe, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: And there's actually even some "experts" that make claims as to why a cheat meal can be a good thing for you and they can say everything from it boosts your metabolism, that it can give you a psychological break from dieting and they can also say that it helps you keep you on track with your plan, which we're just going to blow those right out of the water in the next few minutes. So are you ready? Do you want to just get right into it or do you have any cheat meal thoughts before we jump into it? Lauren: Do you have any cheat meal thoughts? No, no, we can jump right in. Annie: Okay, let's go. So claim number one: cheat meals boost your metabolism. Lauren, you're kind of the nutrition guru, you are, not kind of, you are the nutrition guru. Is that true? Do cheat meals boost your metabolism? Lauren: No, I mean food boosts your metabolism in general and if you need a cheat meal to boost your metabolism, you are not eating enough right or being way too restrictive. Yeah and you know, to add to that whole eating breakfast, jumpstarts your metabolism, like, that's not true either so no, not and also one cheat meal can undo your results for the entire week and I think, I know you've probably experienced this too, right,where you you put in all this hard work throughout the entire week and so your cheat meal you all the things and I think we underestimate how much, how many calories we can eat during a cheat meal or a cheat day and it really, it kind of "undoes" everything you just worked to do, right and if you instead just kind of make smaller, more manageable changes throughout the entire week you don't need a cheat meal and you probably or could get better results anyway. Annie: Yeah, the first time I was, that concept of essentially a cheat meal having the, could be an opportunity to essentially negate all the work you did throughout the week I was in a doctor's office and I was talking to my primary care doctor, this was before I was a personal trainer. I was in the fitness industry, this is was long before this but I was expressing to her that I was trying to make some changes to my diet but that I wasn't losing weight and she asked, like, well, you know, what are you doing and I said well you know Monday through Friday I do really well, I, you know, pack my lunches, eat breakfast, I eat dinner, my snacks are this and that, like all the gold standard, sort of balanced diet stuff, right, it was heavy on the restriction side, of course. Because that's, you know, what I knew then but I said, you know, then on the weekends, then we'll eat out and she was like "Well, tell me about your eating out" and I was like, "Well, we'll go to the, you know, the restaurant down the corner or this or that" and she was like, "I hear that you're trying to make some changes and you have some really good intentions," she's like, "I want you to know that one of those meals can negate any caloric deficit you've tried to acquire during the week" and I was mad. I was mad when I heard that because I was like "No, I work so hard during the week to get this result and then I essentially just blow it all in one Chinese buffet, like, is that what you're telling me?" She was like,  "Well, look, it's not personal but yes, it's possible." Lauren: Yeah, that's really like, exactly what I used to do. I know a friend of mine, do you guys have On The Border? Annie: Yeah  we ate at On The Border when you were here. Lauren: Oh, well we would go to On The Border, there's one like by my house and we would eat the chips and salsa first, right, then I would get these tacos, these amazing tacos with the rice and then we would get this like cake dessert thing which had like the cake with the gooey chocolate center and ice cream and it was like, I probably, yeah, I would definitely overdo it because I was so hungry and so excited to actually eat good food, you know, because when you're restricting yourself so heavily throughout the week you want food that tastes good, like, you want taste. Annie: And I know we've said this a million and one times on this podcast before but I'm going to say it again, restriction sets you up to binge. Lauren: Yes. Annie: And so it's no surprise that if you're restricting, restricting, restricting, you know, like, white knuckling it through the week and then you get to that cheat meal on Friday or Saturday or Sunday or whatever it is or cheat day, it's no wonder you're like "Game on! Let's go, I'm going to get all the things! You know, I'm going to start at breakfast and I'm going to go all the way to dinner, you know or I'm going to have this, like, 3 course meal if you're just doing one meal, like, I'm going to I'm going to expand that meal into an appetizer and then a main course and then a dessert and then a side dish and some heavy caloric drinks or some alcohol or whatever." That's normal, that's exactly what we would expect from someone that is white knuckling it through the week, like. Lauren: Right and when you only have one day or one meal to get in all your favorite foods, like, I'm going to fit as much as I possibly can fit in my stomach right now, like, and I still go out to eat, like, I still eat chips and salsa and tacos and sometimes order dessert but I just eat less, like, I don't eat as many chips and salsa because I'm not starving, like, I'll eat, you know, I'll take half of my meal home because I don't need it all and if we do order a dessert, like, the whole family shares that, I have a few bites and like that's it, so not saying you can't go out to eat but it's just a different kind of experience. Annie: Absolutely. I think that's what we call moderation here at Balance365. Lauren: Oh, OK. Is that the term? Annie: Is that a new concept to you, Lauren? Jokes, jokes. OK, claim number 2: cheat meals provide a psychological break. Is that true? Lauren: No, I don't, not in the long run. So it can feel like a break when you're in it, right, but then you have to go back to restricting. I remember I always used to like, plan, like you said, I would play my whole day. Annie: Yes, right. Lauren: Plan what I'm going to eat for each meal, the whole cheat day but then you have to go back to it and we had Marci Evans on the podcast a few weeks ago and we talked all about sugar addiction, right or whether sugar addiction is a real thing, so if you haven't listened to that, definitely go listen that was a really good and if you remember, she talked about the sugar addicted rats that "prove" that sugar addiction is a real thing, right, when you read the click baity articles and whatever. But what we, what the study actually showed was the rats that had that addiction-like behavior were the ones that were, they had to fast before hand, right, they restricted their food before hand and then they gave them that access to the sugar and they gave them sometimes a lot of sugar, sometimes they would take it away and give it back and the rats that did not have that restrictive behavior before hand they just ate it like regular food, right, they didn't exhibit that same addicted like behavior. Annie: Yeah  so what she was suggesting and what other research has backed is that it's not necessarily the food, it's the way in which the food is presented or the context around the food. Lauren: Right. Annie: So yeah, when you're saying, no, I can't have this until Friday, like, yeah, come Friday you are salivating for it? Lauren:  Like, yeah and I think we talk about this in probably almost every single podcast but like the Pink Polar Bear effect, when you tell yourself you can't have something, you want it more and actually something that was really interesting, I think it was another Tracy Mann study who we're going to have on the podcast soon too shows that when you restrict your food you are more likely to notice food around you and that's by design, right. So when we were at real risk for starving we were more likely to notice when food was around us and that was helpful to us back then, but now with food everywhere it's not so helpful but when you restrict your food or tell yourself you can't have that food, you notice food more around you I mean, which is super interesting. Annie: I think if you are trying to get pregnant, have been pregnant, the thing that comes to mind is like, when we started trying to conceive with my children, you know, it was like all I saw was pregnant- Lauren: Everyone- Annie: Everyone was pregnant right, like, the farmer's market was just full of pregnant women. Lauren: Or you ever get a new car and then you've never seen that car before and now you see it everywhere and like everyone has your car. Annie: Yes, the power of suggestion, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie:  OK claim number 3, this is kind of what I was hinting at earlier is that meals make it easier to stay on track, which- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Tell me about that, Lauren. Lauren: Well, so your cheat meal on Friday night leads you to your cheat day on Saturday which leads you to your cheat day on Sunday. Normally I could cut it back off for Monday morning but trying to just do one cheat meal over the weekend and then stop is really difficult and I think most of our listeners who have been through this can completely understand where we're coming with this. Annie: And I think it's really common, you know, if you first start implementing the philosophy of cheat meals to be like "OK, cheat meal one and done" and then, you know, a few months later it's like a cheat meal Friday night goes into breakfast Saturday and then after a year of cheat mealing it you're like "Oh, look, my whole weekend is now a cheat meal, which is essentially my experience." Lauren: Right and then it's like what are you working so hard Monday through Thursday for, right? You're just torturing yourself for no reason. Annie: Right and the other thing that's kind of actually thinking about it in those terms, we've talked a lot about Weight Watchers, I've been a member multiple, multiple times but that's essentially what I was doing around weigh ins was I would kind of white knuckle it, restrict, restrict, restrict pre-weigh in and I would go weigh in so I could weigh in light and reach my goal for the week and then after the weigh in it was game on, like, finally, just give me the foods that I was saying I couldn't have before I weighed in and which leads us right into why or how rather cheat days can create the perfect storm for yo yo dieting, weight loss, weight gain, weight loss, weight gain, weight loss, weight gain is essentially what we're saying, Lauren and I are saying is that you spend, you know, 3, 4, 5 days dieting, dieting, dieting, dieting, restricting, restricting, restricting and then the other 2, 3, 4 days game on, all in,  I'm just going to eat whatever I want, you get a case of the screw its and that's like, "Let's go, right?" Lauren: Yeah for sure and then, we're kind of talking about this as week and weekend but there's also like the seasonal thing, right, like we just got over, we just got done the holidays, right that's a big thing too, like, you diet, diet, diet up to the holidays and then you go crazy until, you know, sometimes the beginning of January, sometimes it's until the spring, right and then you just repeat that again. So this can be like shorter, like weekly or it can be even shorter than that, like, sometimes you'll see people trying to eat as little as possible throughout the day and then they go crazy at night, right? They can't stop eating at night, like, after their kids go to bed or when they get home for work or whatever, so it could be a short of a time frame as that, it could be a week, it could be months. But yeah, it's kind of all the same, even though it's different. Annie:Yeah and I just want to say, I want to reiterate that the restrictive diet that's paired with the cheat days or cheat meals is what makes it necessary, "feel necessary" to eat all those foods because your hunger, you're hungry, you're thinking about all the foods you said you couldn't eat and your quantities have likely been repressed before that and so you want to eat a high volume of foods and then you combine that with what we're talking about with the lab rats earlier, like, you know, you get this addiction-like response because you've been restricting these foods, it's not because the foods themselves are addictive. it's the manner in which you present the foods to yourself. Lauren: Right, it's like we always talk about it's the diets, like, it feeds itself, right, like you go on a diet and going on the diet causes you to overeat which causes you, you know, shame and guilt and all these feelings which make you want to diet again, it just goes in a circle it over and over and over. Annie: Yes, so how do you enjoy treats without cheat days? Lauren: Well, you want to start not at the cheat day part ,you want to start at the diet part. Annie: Yes, so many people are- Lauren: So make your diet not so restrictive and you, like, you just said you don't have that strong desire and strong need to overeat all the things. Annie: Right. It's not, the answer isn't eat everything in sight all the time and it's not, also on the flip side, to eat only healthy or "good" foods and never eat treats again, the answer is daily consistent moderation. Lauren: Well, there is that word again, moderation. Annie: It just keeps coming up. It's so weird. And that's finding a balance between the food you love and a way of eating that helps you live your life and show up in your life as your best self. So instead of cutting out sweets and treats or pizza or tacos or whatever it is or waiting until the weekend, you plan to enjoy a reasonable amount of treats or pizza or tacos throughout the week and you know and you might have some variations of that, so obviously you are not going to probably choose to eat a cheat meal for the whole, or what you would traditionally eat at a cheap meal, you know, I'm thinking of someone who is currently listening and they're like imposing the cheat meal philosophy. You might have a little bit of a pendulum swing where while you're, as Lauren said, trying to stop this process in the restriction, you might feel that your cheat meal carries on for a week or a couple weeks and you eat all the foods but eventually, in our experience, as Lauren said and we've shared this on the podcast before, you're probably going to find that if you continue to cheat meal type foods, whatever that looks like to you, over the long haul you're probably not going to feel very good. Like you just aren't and again, we just shared this on our last podcast that we recorded that the diet industry wants you to believe that if you are left to your own devices you will sit on the couch, eat all the foods all the time and do nothing, right, that's what they want us to believe but we would offer that if left to your own devices, our bodies naturally crave a variety of foods, balance, moderation, movement, variety and so one way to implement moderation is to allow yourselves to eat those cheat meal foods throughout the week, not just on the weekends or not just when you have those designated, like, "I'm allowed to eat this" moment. Lauren: Right and it's not, you don't need to confine yourself to just "diet foods" right, like, eat foods that you enjoy and eat enough of them to sustain you and you won't feel that crazy desire to eat all the things that taste good and are super hyper palatable and it's just, it's exactly that going from one side of the pendulum to the other to in the middle. Annie: Yeah, because part of finding balance whether it's with food or exercise or anything, anything in life when you're trying to find balance, part of finding balance is experimenting what feels like too much and what feels like too little. I mean, even, you know, like, thinking about, like, you're learning to drive a car, which is another analogy we've used before. You know, when I watch my kids drive a car when they turn, you know, a car, they're not driving my car, just to be clear, you know, whether to drive like a go cart or a video game, when they turn, they crank the wheel hard and when they stop they push the brake hard and when they press the gas pedal, they push the gas hard and they have to just learn that, like, that was too much, this is too little. I got to find that balance in between what's just enough for me. It's like Goldilocks, right? Lauren: Yeah and we see this all the time in our Balance365 community and the Healthy Habits Happy Moms community. Someone will be like, well I tried this for a day and I ate all the things that didn't work and now I don't feel good, right, like, you are not, you have to realize you are not going to get this right on the 1st try, like, it takes trial and error. But going through that process is worth it in the end, like it's not going to take forever, it will take some time to figure out but then you have it and you know and you know what's too much and you know what works for you. Annie: Yeah, so if you're someone that's listening, I'm thinking of myself when I was 20, you know, 2 or 23 and I was doing cheat meals on a Friday night. I guarantee if I let go of that restriction during the week, cheat meals on the weekend sort of thing I would have had a period where my pendulum swung in the opposite direction and I would have been pizza, tacos, chips like a steady diet of just those three foods, like no vegetables, no fruit, very little, you know, protein. And I would have I would have eventually have come out of it and in fact, I did, that's essentially what I did is, like, let go of that process was I had to move through some of this, like, "OK, I'm going to experiment what feels like too much food and then I'm going to let my pendulum kind of settle somewhere in the middle which is now I'm able to enjoy pizza and tacos and chips, you know, as little or as much as I see fit and I'm completely neutral about it." Lauren: Yeah and we're not saying, you know, you're never going to eat another vegetable again, like, once I kind of find, once you, say, sort of start settling back in the middle, that's when it's really helpful to kind of adopt these other healthy habits that we teach in Balance365 like adding your vegetables and making sure you're going enough protein but doing it from the mindset, from a balanced mindset instead of a diet mindset, it makes all the difference. Annie: Yeah and I think too, you know, just to wrap up, remembering that this is a process, right, like we were just saying that it's going to be a practice, it's going to be an evolution. And you might have some missteps but we encourage our Balance365 members to look at this as like an experiment and it's just kind of information that you're gathering about yourself so you can, you know, that saying when you know better, you can do better and you can make different choices based off of your needs the more information you have about yourself. But, all in all, we would we would largely encourage moderation over cheat meals, for all the reasons we just listed previously but we think that really promotes a healthy relationship with food and that way you get to eat your pizza and your Cheetos, next to your kale. Lauren: That was a different podcast. Annie: I know but it still applies, it still applies, you can have it all and kale. Lauren: Yes. Annie: OK, good, we crushed that, Lauren. Lauren: Yeah we did. Annie: Yeah and if you need, if we say so ourselves, if you need help, if you're currently like cheat mealing it up and you're like, "OK, yeah, I hear what they're saying, this isn't working for me anymore, I don't want to continue this" and you want support and you're not already in our Facebook group please join us. It is a free private Facebook group. We are Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook we have 40,000 plus, and growing daily, women in our group that would encourage you, love to encourage you and cheer and clap for you and support you as you find out what balance and moderation looks like in your diet. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Alright, thanks, Lauren. Lauren: Alright. Bye. Annie: Bye  

Show Nutz: *Lauren is sorry for coming in hot on strawberry yogurt / true crime Previous Podcast Challenge for Lauren: It's Been A Minute, Comedian Guy Branum Wants to Change the Boys Club of Comedy Overall rating: Must listen to all, esp this one, then go buy Guy Branum's MY LIFE AS A GODDESS Podcast Challenge for Eric: Bad Science THANKS TO OUR SPONSOR POSH MARK. Clip 1: Proof, Ketchup Host: Bridget Lancaster Guest: Alex DePalma This episode is all about on of Lauren's favorite foods, ketchup! Some people love it, some people think it's totally gauche, but one restaurant has gone so far as to ban the condiment. In this clip, host Bridget Lancaster introduces one ketchup fanatic who grew up depraved of the stuff. Clip 2: Pivot Podcast with Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, Tech Addiction and How It Might Be Ruining Gen Z Host: Scott Galloway Guest: Jonathan Haidt On this episode of Pivot Podcast, Scott brings on a guest-host, his NYU colleague and bestselling author Jonathan Haidt. They dig into COLLEGE CALL OUT CULTURE, and how a culture of fragility has left a young generation of students unable to cope with the real world and how that will affect corporations. And that we might not be able to have public conversations ANY. MORE. SUPER SEGGY 1: Are We Screwed or No?: Note To Self, The Fourth Amendment Needs Your Attention Host: Manoush Zomorodi Guest: Laura Donoghue Host Manoush Zomorodi and law professor Laura Donoghue look back at the Supreme Court cases that defined privacy for the digital age, and how the fourth amendment is a crucial part of the fight for digital privacy. SUPER SEGGY 1: Bible Lesson! A Funny Feeling, Man with the Sharp Teeth w/Ryan Stanger Are we fools to believe we can describe God with the English language? Also: Food 4 Thot, Let's Go to Church! This Is Water: :17-1:07

Can you love your body and still want to change it? The answer to this question depends greatly on who you ask. Some people in the body-positive camp think that weight loss and self-love can’t co-exist, while the diet and fitness industry encourages self-hatred. Does the truth lie somewhere in the messy middle? Tune in for Jen, Annie and Lauren’s discussion on the topic.   What you’ll hear in this episode: Has the body positivity pendulum swung too far? Change as a natural consequence of habits and behaviors Mindset blocks and change What research says about how much control you have over your body Altering appearance for self-expression Examining motivations for changes Being realistic about timing of changes Is there way too much overthinking going on? Mothering yourself Identifying when you need self-compassion and when you need tough love The answer to the question of the day!   Resources: Secrets From The Eating Lab Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Can self-love and a desire to change your physical being co-exist or are they a contradiction of one another? The answer to that question is debatable depending on who you’re asking. On one hand of the body positive camp say body love and weight loss can not co-mingle while it seems as if the rest of the diet industry requires a certain amount of body dissatisfaction as a prerequisite to change. There is no doubt in our minds that the push for body acceptance of all shapes and sizes is a much needed message but what about those individuals who want self-acceptance and still desire to change their bodies?This is a quite complex and messy topic and on today’s episode Jen, Lauren and I share Balance365’s stance on how you can strive for change that’s rooted in self-love and acceptance and joy. Ladies, welcome back to another episode how are you? Lauren: Good. Annie: Why? Why can’t you just answer the question? Jen: I feel like you need to address us individually because what happens is, what people can’t see behind the scenes is we are actually on a video conference call looking at each other so then you are like “Ladies, how are you?” and then Lauren and I stare at each other waiting for the other ones to answer first. Lauren: Who’s going to go first? Annie: Quit being so polite and just answer the question. Lauren, how are you doing? Lauren: I am so wonderful, how are you? Annie: I am golden, thank you. Jen, how are you? Jen: Also wonderful. Annie: I feel like that was just so surface-level answers but we’ll go with it. Jen: Well, if you want to do a deep dive in my problems lately. Annie: Would you like to schedule a coaching call with one of the Balance365 coaches. Jen: Well, I need a new podcast called the Jen show. And I’ll just get all weeps and vent. Annie: I do feel like you’ve used some of our podcast episodes to kind of sort through some of your own issues about exercise. Jen: Yeah, but you know what? It’s helpful for people because my problems are their problems. That’s the narcissist in me. I struggle with things a lot of women struggle with. It can be helpful to go through it with a coach. I actually have a really good idea for a podcast series and that’s to bring on Balance365ers on to the podcast and coach them through whatever block they’re struggling with and sending that out to all of our listeners. Don’t you think that’s a good idea? Annie: I do, yeah and all jokes aside, you’re right, you do have a problems. Jen: I am your average busy working mom that struggles to make time for self care and yeah, that’s why I think our podcast resonates with so many women because we all have surpassed 200,000 downloads I’ll just add that in too. We are not standing on our high horses telling everybody what to do, we struggle with all the same things, have struggled in the past currently or we may in the future so yeah, we’re all in this together. I hope everybody feels that way when they listen and talk to us. Annie: I feel like that just got really serious, like we started out all jokey. Lauren: It started out all good and quickly. Annie: You can always count on Jen- Lauren: To make it an intense counselling session. Annie: To turn it into a serious, sentimental intense conversation. Jen: I’m an INFJ. I like intense conversations. Lauren: I don’t remember what my letters are but they’re the opposite of Jen. Jen: Yeah, we could have called that without you going through the test. Annie: OK. All jokes aside, we do have a kind of a heavy topic today, it’s something, it’s a question that comes up so frequently in our community, so frequently in the diet and fitness world and something that we’ve addressed inside our community but not on the podcast yet and that is “Can you love your body and still want to change it?” and by changing it we mean address your body composition, gain weight, lose weight, change your appearance of some sort and that’s a pretty big snowball to tackle, right? And depending on who you ask you’re likely to get a variety of answers. Extreme body positive activists will tell you that body love and weight loss cannot co-exist, do not co-exist and on the flip-side many professionals in our industry or the diet industry in general as a whole that support weight loss believe that self loathing and body dissatisfaction is a prerequisite to changing a body and here we are as the 3 co-founders of Balance365 yet again in the messy middle, right? Lauren: Yup. Jen: Yup: Annie: And so we’re, you know, again, the answer to that question is going to depend on what camp you’re asking, right? So we’re going to answer this question or discuss some of the talking points that we consider when helping our community members evaluate “Can you love your body and still want to change it? Can they co-exist?” and I think we can all agree that this body acceptance movement or accepting yourself at every shape and size is a much needed message for our culture. But what we’re experiencing is that those who still want to make changes are kind of like, “Well, what about me? What do I do? What, like, how, where do I fall into?” and sadly, it feels like in some ways the pendulum has swung a bit too far in one direction, especially when members of our community are feeling shamed for wanting to change their body still or they’re keeping it a secret or they’re afraid to tell anyone. And that, to us, isn’t neutral or an expression of body autonomy which we are super supportive and this is tricky because on some levels what we do in Balance365 is give women the tools and support they need to reach their goals, which can include weight loss, while simultaneously encouraging them to love and accept themselves and there are people out there who believe that these two concepts contradict one another, which is kind of the debate of the moment, right? Now in our industry “Can you love yourself and want to change it?” Does that mean that you don’t ultimately love yourself if you still want to change yourself? Do you have any thoughts, Jen? Jen: Well, newsflash, almost any change, lifestyle change you make in your life and do consistently is going to change your body because our bodies are always in flux and although they are a representation of our genetics and our environment, they are also a representation of our habits. So I recently changed my mode of exercise. I have gone a couple years of just doing like shorter more intense workouts and now I’m back into a phase where I have the time and opportunity and support to do some heavy lifting. I’m actually going through the Arms Like Annie program that a lot of women in our community are which is a strength training program, full body strength training program, heavy weights and guess what? My body is going to change because that’s what bodies do, they adapt to the stresses you put them under. So this I really see as a big mindset block for a lot of people, whether it’s trying to hate their body to change or resisting change because they’ve learned to love their bodies. I got some really good advice this last spring. I was struggling with a certain mindset around business and money. I was at a conference and I was talking to a man who has built multiple companies and sold them and is a multi multi millionaire. He told me he lives on a street in San Francisco and sometimes he walks out and looks down the street and can’t believe that he could buy every house on the block if he wanted to. But he grew up extremely poor and so why we connected is because I grew up without a lot of financial privilege and I find that affects me today but the advice he gave me that I now see is so universal, he said “You are so busy fighting battles in your head that you are never going to be able to get out there and fight the war” and I honestly see this as one of those mindset blocks, one of those blocks that women run into like and makes them freeze and then they expend this time and energy on it. Do I want to change my body? Don’t I want to change my body? Why do I want to change my body? And then they’re just missing the whole thing that change needs to come from a place of self care and if you are taking action on something that feels like you are caring for yourself, nurturing yourself, mothering yourself, then who cares what the outcome is? Maybe your body will get smaller, maybe it will get bigger, I don’t know. Annie: You just ran through my 3 bullet points in like five minutes. Jen: I’m sorry. I did not read the outline. Annie: So Jen summarized that so well and so concisely we can just end the podcast now. I’m just kidding but you’re spot on. You’re, it’s such a good point that you’re so busy, what did you say? You’re so busy fighting battles- Jen: You’re so busy fighting battles in your head you’re never going to get out there and fight the war and this is what we deal with in an ongoing basis in Balance365, any of our Balance365ers listening will say, “Yeah, she’s right. I mean there are so many women posting daily working through these mindset blocks” and it’s really those different programmings that we have that keep us from actually taking action and doing the things that we want to do or need to do in our lives to feel our best, like our best selves. Lauren: Yeah I was writing something earlier about this kind of exact thing, like the mindset piece that we put first is so important because when you get through that the nutrition habits and exercise habits are so simple, like they’re simple. What trips us up is like these mindset blocks like you’re talking about. Annie: And you know, I just want to back up too and I hope this is inferred and I hope that you can just sense this about us by the way we carry ourselves and the way our program is written and laid out but we absolutely believe in body autonomy and we believe that the individual has control over who and what they use their body for and for what and how long and that means that we respect to variety of goals women may have for their bodies and women come to our program with goals of building self-love and healthy habits and some come with a clear goal of weight loss and we don’t place moral value on either goal over the other. We believe that they’re all worthy and we’re here to help women achieve their goals, whatever they are. Jen: We have women share with us in Balance365 that once they really get that self acceptance piece and love their bodies they’re so afraid of losing it because nobody wants to go back there once you’re not there anymore you don’t ever want to go back in that space. So then they start the habit building process and they start losing weight and that puts them into a negative space almost of self sabotage because weight loss then becomes triggering to them as in “Wait a sec. I worked so hard to love that body and now it’s changing again” and the other thing like, newsflash, our bodies are always going to change every single day we are getting older so our hormones are changing, we’re  getting wrinkles, we’re, you know, our hair color is changing. I mean, our bodies are always changing and I think that is the biggest acceptance piece that needs to happen is your body is always changing so stop this hypervigilance on trying to control it. Annie: Right and I think that getting clear on the why behind your desire to change your body can help answer some of those questions and so often we see women wanting to change their bodies and it’s rooted in self hate or this misconception that if you fix your body you’ll love your life and your life will be perfect and you’ll have the perfect body or ultimately that you want to feel worthy and you want to feel free of shame and you want to have this loving and belonging and it’s our experience that you can’t hate your body into loving yourself and nor can you hate your body into being healthy and if that had worked I think we would have a heck of a lot more “success stories” in our lives than we really do, right? Jen: The greatest act of self love is loving yourself when you think nobody else will, so when you aren’t fitting into society’s mold of what is lovable, right, so it’s, you know, so if you do have a larger body there is a lot of good and value there of learning to love and accept yourself at a larger size before, you know, before the weight loss journey comes, if it ever comes, you know, whatever your choice but you know, it’s like only loving your kids when they’re well behaved, right, like, when, you can just love your body when it’s doing what you want it to be doing and you can’t just love yourself when your behaviors are on point, right, your nutrition’s on point, your exercise is on point, your rockin’ life, you love yourself but then as soon as your behaviors are off track you’re filled with these self loathing thoughts. That’s not love, that’s just like surface level approval. Annie: That’s conditioned. That’s conditioned love. That’s not and ultimately I think what a lot of us would really like and are striving for is to love ourselves unconditionally. Meaning our body can look a variety of ways, our behaviors can look a variety of ways and we still can treat ourselves with compassion that we would so many other people in our lives. Jen: Yeah, another good analogy I use sometimes with women is I moved into a house, a new house about a year and a half ago and it’s an older house and there was people that lived here before us that decorated, painted, designed to this house in a way that suited them but is not to my tastes at all. So, for example, my bathroom is lime green and I hate it, I hate it but I still love my home. I am still grateful to live in this home. This is the nicest home I’ve ever lived in. Growing up as a little girl my mother couldn’t have dreamed of providing this kind of house for me as a kid so every day I wake up I feel like I’m living in my dream home but my bathroom is lime green. Yes, I do want to change that color eventually. I haven’t yet, it just, I haven’t had time, it has been the right time but eventually I will paint the bathroom, I will do some renovations around this house to change it but that doesn’t, that doesn’t take away from the unconditional love and gratitude I have for this home and I wish that people could feel that way about their bodies. Sometimes there are changes that you want to make and as long as those are realistic and within your realm of control the problem is there is just such polarizing views. There’s this whole view that you mentioned at the start, Annie ,there’s this whole idea that you have complete control over what your body looks like and then there’s the other end of the spectrum people saying “You actually have no control over what your body looks like so don’t even bother thinking about it” but I think it was Dr Tracy Mann, we’re interviewing her on our podcast pretty soon here which is really exciting but she has in her books that studies in her book Secrets From The Eating Lab, studies show that it’s in the middle, you know, as usual, we actually do- Lauren: That messy middle.   Jen: Yes, like you can’t change your genetics, of course, but there are certain behaviors we have in our life that will affect the way our bodies look and feel and I think her stats are we have about a 30 percent, 30 percent of the way we look is we’re able to manipulate, which is probably a lot less than some people think and a lot more than other people think and so it’s OK. It’s OK. You can have total love for your body. You can have gratitude for the body that you were given. You can have acceptance of the genes that you have and you can still say, “You know what, I would love to reduce my abdominal body fat and I am going to step forward making change in a way that will reduce the fat I have on my body and that is coming from a place of self-love and self care and also being realistic.” Annie: And I think the important distinction there, Jen, that you’re, in terms of your bathroom, is striving for change doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with it, it’s just different. It’s not good or bad- Jen: Yeah. Annie: I mean I mean to you the lime green might be bad but- Jen: Yeah, I mean, but how some people behave about their bodies is that, taking it back to the house, they would just throw gas around this house and light it on fire like that because they don’t like the way the bathroom looks and here’s the thing, it’s also knowing that there’s a time to address that and not right, like, I have recognized over the last 18 months that trying to make any changes to the interior of my home were just not realistic. I just haven’t had the time or the resources or the money to pay somebody so we haven’t done it and there’s a time to change and then there’s a time to hold the line and just, but you can still wake up every morning and be grateful, right, like it doesn’t have to be something urgent in, like, you know, you can’t love yourself or respect yourself until you have this but I mean, we talk about it in terms of bodies but I mean there’s a lot of people that get hysteria over their house as well because it’s where they live in. Annie:  Yeah or you love your job, you enjoy your job but you want to improve in a particular skill set or – Jen: Yes. Annie: You enjoy your marriage, you love your spouse, your partner, your significant other but you wish you could spend more time on date nights or as you noted you love your children but you wish they would listen better at bedtime but you can, we believe wholeheartedly, that you can want to change an aspect or an element of yourself, your appearance, your being, whatever it is and that come from self love, that come from a place of love and care and admiration for yourself, versus- Jen: It’s not that you are more or less worthy with these changes, which is really that key component, right, like I go in and color my hair, I get blonde highlights every 3 or 4 months or so or 10 months. And it’s like, I just like it and I don’t see myself as the less worth, if I, you know, for whatever reason, if I had to go back to my, you know, grow it all out and have it just have my natural hair color, I wouldn’t be like, you know, feeling awful about myself, it would just be “Oh, like, I love coloring my hair. I wear makeup, you know.” There’s all these things, right but like- Lauren: Our outward appearance can be an expression right we are and people have different preferences, people like different hair colors and different hair styles and different makeup styles, that’s OK. It doesn’t mean like we don’t love ourselves if we’re not wearing makeup and that’s how we can use that analogy when we’re talking about our bodies. Like, you don’t have to, we say this all the time, you don’t have to love every little tiny part to love the whole, right? Annie: That’s exactly how I feel about muscles, to me they’re like an accessory, like they’re like my favorite accessory. It is honestly, it’s an act of self-expression for me to have visible muscles. Now if for whatever reason I didn’t have the visible muscles, you know, it might be an adjustment but I ultimately know that I am a human of value, of worth, just innately, not because I look a certain way, not because I can do certain things in the gym with my muscles that look a certain way. I just have value because I’m a human, as do all all women, and I mean and it’s so easy for us to see as mothers and all, we could say the same thing about our kids, like, why do our kids have value? Just because they are, just because they’re beings, they’re living, breathing humans but to give ourselves that same sense of value and worth seems so difficult. Jen: Yeah I think what happens is people, they just, they overthink this and it gets people in a tizzy on both ends whether it’s from believing you can’t love yourself until you look a certain way or believing that if you’re making changes you don’t love yourself, you know, there’s just way too much overthinking going on. Annie: So what with the approach that we’ve already kind of touched on that we take in our program is we encourage our members to adopt a self-love approach to change and if weight loss is the way in which you want to change your body, it can be a by-product of your habits and a way that you care for yourself. Jen: Yeah and it’s always a byproduct of your habits, always, right? So when you are, like, we’ve covered this in previous podcasts, but you can’t just say, snap your fingers and lose 10 pounds. Annie didn’t snap her fingers and grow muscles. All changes are a byproduct of our habits and so once you start looking at changes as a byproduct of your habits then you can look at the habits required and or the skills you need to develop in order to see that change and you can decide if that is self love and self care for you, right? Annie: And you posed a really great question, a thread came up in Balance365 last week and the question you posed in response to her is “Is this goal about health and love and self-care or is this about achievement and ideal?” Jen: Right. Annie: And that can maybe help you distinguish the why behind this. Is this coming from a place of love or is this coming from some other place that really isn’t worth perpetuating. Jen: Right, like I could be leaner than I am right now, I am quite comfortable in my body with my body weight but I have been 20 to 25 pounds leaner than I am now. I can go back to that life but there is a point where the extreme that I would have to take goes from a place of self-love and self care into self harm, right, so I, you know, I eat really balanced meals, I pay attention to my nutrition, eat when I’m hungry, stop when I’m satisfied, exercise regularly, take care of my mental health. If I wanted to lose 20 pounds at this point I would have to pay very, very close attention to my nutrition and to me that takes me into a place of self harm and it doesn’t feel well and that’s sort of my guiding compass as far as is this coming from a place of self care or is this coming from a place of self harm? Lauren: I really like that, like, how does it feel? Jen: How does this feel for you? Yeah. Annie: Yes And unfortunately there are people in our industry that would encourage you to power through that feeling. Jen: They do all the time in the fitness industry. All the freaking time. Annie: They would say “This is a prerequisite. This is a requirement that you regulate this negative self talk or pushing yourself past this comfort zone is something that’s required to achieve these goals that are ultimately of high value, right?” Jen: They describe it as a plateau, right, that you have to push through, which sometimes it, like, I mean, that’s the thing about, you’ve really got to know yourself, right, because sometimes there’s value in pushing through, right, like sometimes you don’t, every time it gets hard you don’t want to give up and walk away. Sometimes there’s hard things that you have to work through but the self harm piece is like “Is this sustainable for you? Are you willing? Are you going to do this forever?” And there’s been different times in my life, like for example, right now I get up at 5:30 in the morning to work out and start my workout at 6 and yeah, there are some days that I don’t want to do that but I push through and I’m always happy afterwards. Right now that behavior comes from a place of self care. When I had a newborn, if I would have insisted on that behavior with a newborn baby when I wasn’t sleeping all night and I was pushing myself to get up at 5:30 to work out at 6, that becomes self harm, right, because it means I am going with less and less and less sleep. I’m not even getting enough sleep to recover from my workouts. So those are really self assessment questions that you need to ask yourself and that nobody can answer except for you. Annie: And that’s exactly why we don’t prescribe weight loss or have weight loss goals or goals in general for our community members because no one knows your body better than you do, not even us who work with thousands of women on a daily basis, like, we don’t know you as well as you do and so we really just want to encourage you to pull that reflection inward and say like, “What is this about? Like, can I love my body and want to change it at the same time?” and maybe for you the answer is like “No, I can’t right now. First I have to work on loving myself, you know. Jen: So we recently had a community member share that she thought she had fat loss goals and she was ready to dig in on those fat loss goals but after some self assessment she’s realized that that actually is not a healthy space for her to be in right now and she loves the idea of just focusing on habits and letting her body be what it’s going to be and that is the ultimate form of acceptance for her and that’s where she’s at right now and we are like “A round of applause, girlfriend” because really, all we want for people is to own their life Annie: Yeah, and, you know, just some of these concepts we talk about are kind of heavy and they’re philosophical but, you know, so often what we hear, what this change looks like, this shift which can be so subtle and so small and sometimes you don’t even realize that it’s happening to people around you is that all of a sudden, you know, we’re exercising because, as Jen said, “It leaves me feeling better. I feel more confident. I have more energy throughout the day” versus “I’m getting up at 530 to punish myself because I want to change my body because I hate my body so much and I just can’t stand another day living in my own skin.” I mean, the behavior looks the same on the outside but on the inside, Jen knows this is coming from a place of self-love and self care. Jen: Yeah we often say and I think we’ve said in the podcast before, “it’s not about the what the people are doing it’s about the why and how they go about it.” That’s where the dysfunction and disorder, that’s where it can be found. Annie: Yeah, and I mean, the same can be true for how you feed your body, how you speak to your body and you know, are you feeding yourself balanced meals because your body deserves to be nourished and again, you feel better when you have balanced meals or are you starving or removing whole food groups or eating foods you don’t like because, again, you loathe your body and you want to change it and if you change your body, you change your life and if you change your life then you have less problems.” Jen: Right, the thing I love and I’ll let Lauren elaborate on this but somebody posted in our group in the last, I don’t know, year sometime, she asked about protein bars and she said “But aren’t protein bars diety?” and then you replied, Lauren, do you want to share that? Lauren:  Yes, I don’t remember exactly what I replied but I’ll say what I think about it now. So there’s no, like, diet food or not diet food, right? Like you walk into a restaurant and like two women are eating the exact same thing, they’re both eating a salad and one person restricted themselves and they’re punishing themselves for what they ate yesterday or they’re punishing themselves because they hate their body and the other person is eating to nourish their body and it makes them feel good so that’s why they’re eating their salad, right, like just like Jen said, it’s not always about the what, it’s about the why. Jen: Does it come from a place of deprivation or does it come from a place of abundance and self care? Annie: Exactly and again, they can look the same on the outside. Jen: Exactly. Annie:  On the surface. You might not be able to tell, you might not be able to distinguish and that’s why it’s so important that you get really in tune with yourself and what you’re doing and why you’re doing it and that can help you discern, is this self-love or is this self-hate are these behaviors rooted in? And you know, I just, we say this all the time and it can’t be said enough, we have a saying that “We take great care of things we love and your body is no exception” and I think about all the things that I take care of in my life, between relationships with girlfriends, my children, even my house plants, for heaven’s sakes and I want them to feel comfortable and safe and confident and thrive and grow and expand and live this vibrant life, I’m not degrading them, I’m not starving them, I’m not depriving them. I’m actually treating them really sweetly and kindly and with love and encouragement and sometimes that looks like- Jen: Sometimes there’s tough love built into that. Annie: Yes, like, “Jen, do you want to stay in bed because your bed is warm and cozy and it’s cold outside and it’s dark but I know ultimately this is the goal I committed to and I’m going to feel good” Like, it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. Jen: Absolutely. Actually, my mantra, you know, these days I’ve been struggling a bit. And my mantra is “Mother. I’m mothering myself right now.” Like I have just needed, I have needed some tough love lately and it’s not that I’m, like, being a drill sergeant to myself it’s that “Would my mother let would let me stay up and watch Netflix to 1:30 AM when I have to be up at 6 you know 5 nights in a row?” Like, no, and so that’s sometimes where the tough love has to come in but a mother, well, a mother knows. A mother knows when to push and a mother knows when to pull back, right, we do it for our kids every single day but yet for ourselves it’s like we want to put ourselves into like one box and just like stay there either because we see pendulum swing with self-compassion to, right, we see all the time women are like “Oh I’ve watched Netflix for 3 days but self care, right? and it’s like, “I don’t know. I’m not you so I don’t know if that was self care for you or not but I know for a lot of people you have moved from self care to like numbing and avoiding.” And like you know, like, my mother, if I was sick I might watch T.V. for 3 days but if I wasn’t sick my mother, you know, there’s not a lot of mothers out there who would be letting their kids just sit and watch T.V. for 3 days. Annie: After a day she would be like, “OK get off the couch.” Jen: Get outside, right? My parents used to do that all the time, like, “Get your butts outside now,” right, and so you bring it back to that and go like mother yourself. Have you gotten some fresh air today? Have you gotten some movement in? Are you eating balanced meals? You know, eating, you know, high sugar treats all day long, no that’s not self care day after day after day and that’s certainly not balance. Annie: So, you know, I think, this is just my own personal experience but I’ve heard it echoed in the stories of women we’ve worked with in the past is that they kind of are like, “Yeah, OK, I get that some women love themselves and they’re treating themselves well because they love themselves that much. That’s great for them, however for me I’m used to fueling my workouts and my food and fitness choices from self-hate and I’m worried that if I love myself that I’m just going to become lazy and I’m going to eat all the foods and I’m just going to lose all my motivation and I’m going to get complacent, right?” Jen: That’s how it feels when you’ve been in a place of control for so long, I mean what happens to the teenagers who move out of their family home at 18 that have been living under very rigid controlling rules. They go to college and they go nuts, right? Like we will always rebel against these rules. Annie: Lauren and I are like “Yep.” Jen: Yes, so it’s sort of like, you know, it’s just, it’s human nature, right it’s just human nature and so a lot of people might see their pending swing but eventually you need to like sit up and go and you just need to mother yourself, that’s what you have to do and I find that quite effective in knowing when I need a little tough love and when I need some compassion, right. So if my kids were really emotional, you know, school ends, they’re super emotional, they’re fighting, they’re just not doing well, I can look at them and have some self compassion and go like “These kids are tired, like, we’re going to turn the T.V. on a little early today because they they need some downtime, they need to skip their chores today, they’ve got no energy, you know, or emotional regulation skills like this.” Because you you look at your kids and you just assess, right, you’re always assessing what they need and that changes day to day and I think we can do that for ourselves too. We can do a much better job of it than women traditionally have been doing. We’ve just, we live under so many rules, right, like I just think women actually live under so, not just for ourselves but in our society there are so many rules and a societal construct that women always are living around that I think when we do find ourselves in that space of having free time, we may find ourselves in a rebellious space a lot because we actually have no idea how much unconscious time and energy we spend on, like, subscribing to these rules. Lauren: Preach. Annie: Word. So the anti-climatic answer to our question that I posed at the beginning of this podcast is “Can you love your body and want to change it?” is, I mean, Yes/It really depends and that’s something that you have to answer on an individual level. I personally can sit here and say with great confidence that I have changed my body as a complete act of self-love. Or self-love has resulted in a body change is maybe a better way to put it. But not everyone that changes their body is acting out of self love and vice versa and again our bodies are meant to change they’re fluid. They’re ever changing, they’re always changing, especially as women of childbearing age, I mean, my body looks so different than it did a year ago and I’m 2 plus years postpartum, like, it’s till changing from pregnancy I feel like, I mean, my hair for heaven sakes is still changing. But I think, you know, we’re, as usual, we feel like the truth to that question is somewhere in the middle. We are not on either side of one extreme camp or the other and we really want to help put women in the driver seat to answer that question on their own terms, in a way that serves them and feels good to them and anything we can help women, any way that we can help women come across that answer is good for us. Jen: Yes. Annie: All right, good one. Jen: Lauren will go zip in in the background go ” Preach.” We should get you a t-shirt that says “What she said.” Annie: OK, well, yet another great topic with yet another awkward ending in the bag but this is good. This is a good conversation that I think needed to we needed to address on our podcast because again, we’ve discussed it so many times in our community, which again, if you’re aren’t in there and you want to join it’s Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. The three of us are in there, we’ve got some awesome moderators and a great community system if you want to continue the discussion on loving your body and still changing it or how you can begin making changes from a place of self-love. It will be a great place to learn so I hope to see you inside and ladies we will chat soon, OK. Lauren: Bye. Jen: Bye.   The post 50: Can You Love Your Body And Still Want To Change It? appeared first on Balance365.

  Diet culture is often so subtle that it can be hard to even identify. On today’s episode Jen, Lauren and Annie tackle the big topic of diet culture: what it is, what it looks like, how it’s harmful and some practical advice on how we can begin to dismantle this hurtful, oppressive system. While this topic is broad and deep, this conversation is the tip of the iceberg and a thought-starter for future conversations. What you’ll hear in this episode: What is diet culture, what does it look like, what does it sound like? Before and after photos – why are they problematic? The impacts of diet culture on the individual, family, and community Making informed choices as consumers to support or not support diet culture How socio-economic factors impact health Thin privilege and how it impacts lives Health, race, and representation in images of health How kids are impacted by diet culture How different healthy weight is for women individually Diet culture and how it creates weight gain How to turn diet culture around Nourishment as a concept that goes beyond food Curating your environment to fight diet culture Resources: Episode 24: Before And After Photos – Comparison, The Thief Of Joy Getting Older: Hillary Mcbride On Women And Aging Linda Bacon’s book Body Respect Setting Body Talk Boundaries Over The Holidays Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio, we have more than enough research to show that diets don’t work. We know this yet people still continue to diet over and over and over again. Why? Well, it’s likely large in part because dieting is a big part of our culture: diet talk, weight talk, negative body talk. It’s everywhere from office conversations to gabbing with your girlfriends over drinks to the marketing on our food, books, and commercials. Diet culture is often so subtle that it can be hard to even identify. When everyone around you is seemingly celebrating weight loss at all costs and bonding overeating “good” foods and say no to “bad” ones it can be difficult to take a stand against a culture. On today’s episode Jen, Lauren and I tackle the big topic of diet culture: what it is, what it looks like, how it’s harmful and how we can begin to dismantle this hurtful, oppressive system. We know that this is just the tip of the iceberg of a very important topic and discussion and we invite you to continue this discussion on the inside of our private Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms. See you on the inside! Lauren and Jen! We’re back with a big, big topic today, are you ready for this? Jen: Ready. Lauren: Ready. Annie: You’ve got your game faces on, you guys. We’re discussing the term diet culture. What is diet culture? Which, the reason why we want to address this is because diet culture is a term and a phrase that we use frequently in our community and in our content and we really haven’t stopped to kind of unpack what this is, right? And we’re just going to dive right into it because I think we could spend a lot of time talking about this and we want to make sure that we do it justice and who knows, we might have to come revisit this. We’ll see how far we can get on our outline, right, but we know that diets don’t work and this is not a new topic. If you’re new to our podcast that might be a new concept to you but if you have been around our community and our podcast for a while, you know that diets don’t work and the research is there to support it and in fact, the research shows that most people are able to lose weight in the year but the vast majority gain it back with the majority of people gaining back more than they lost within 5 years and to echo the research that’s already out there that supports diets don’t work, we’ve surveyed our community and an overwhelmingly amount of our community have tried dieting and they’ve “failed” yet many women keep dieting, right? We see this all the time, like, people try diets, they don’t have success but they keep dieting and why is that? We would offer that it’s, unfortunately, part of our culture, right? Jen: It’s deeply ingrained in our culture to diet. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Yes. And so what we want to discuss today is what is diet culture, what it looks like, what it feels like, what are the consequences of living in a culture obsessed with dieting and spoiler alert: it’s everywhere. Jen: And yeah, a really good analogy I have is we also live, well I do, personally, where I live, I live in a car culture, a commuting culture, so public transport is not good where I live. You essentially have to have a car to participate in our society and imagine not having a car, how difficult that would make things for you and people would be surprised, like, “You don’t have a car? How do you get around?” So if you compare that to living in a diet culture, it’s the same thing. It’s actually very difficult to not to diet in our culture and it can make your life actually feel harder, initially than participating in the culture. Annie: Because you feel like you’re going against the grain. Jen: You are going against the grain and our society isn’t set up to support people who are not making, who are choosing to not do that. Annie: And because diet culture is so subtle, it can be really hard to identify what it is and what it isn’t and you might not be familiar with the term yet, diet culture, if you’re new to our community but I promise you, you have experienced it and I just want to share just, I pulled these out of a hat off the top of my head when I was reviewing for this podcast some of the ways in which you might have experienced a culture that I think are pretty common. Phrases like “I’m going to be bad and order fries” or how we compliment pregnant women for being “all belly” or tell them how great they are looking after giving birth. Jen: Yes. Or  “You don’t even look pregnant” etc. Annie: Yes.  People who lose weight are consistently applauded for and praised without question or you might hear phrases like “I’m on a new diet”, “How is your diet going? Have you tried this diet? I lost weight with this diet.” Jen: Yeah or “I’m off my diet.” Annie: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I’m sure many of you listening are probably nodding in your head in agreement that you’ve heard those types of conversations, you’ve seen those behaviors and they’re so common in our daily lives and these are the examples of what diet culture is, could be or what it sounds like are endless but- Jen: Yeah, before and after photos are a really problematic thing in our society and some of our listeners might be in the fitness industry and they might use before and after photos and I just want to say that it’s not, I know the intent isn’t there, I mean you might be coming from a really good place trying to showcase your client’s results and the intent might not be there but you certainly are profiting off of the fear that’s already there and that’s just something I would like our colleagues to sit with. Annie: Which is difficult because that’s something we as a company have struggled with which we have a whole podcast on before and afters and what the consequences of using them can be. We have gone back and forth, should we use them, should we not use them. Because they are effective, I mean, you see them, not even in a professional setting, you know, a girlfriend post that she lost 20 pounds or whatever in a post before and after on just her personal Facebook page and people break their necks looking at it, right? Jen: Right. Lauren: Right. Annie: And, you know, again, that’s diet culture, where we applaud these people for weight loss or think if they’re a better person or more disciplined or of higher moral virtue because they lost weight and we don’t even stop to question “Are they actually healthier? Do they do they feel better? How did they go about achieving that?” like, “Could this person just be sick?” I mean, like, there are so many options other than “this was intentional and they automatically feel better” but let’s just define it, right, this is, the definitions vary from source to source but in general diet culture is a society that focuses on and values weight shape and size over health and wellbeing. It worships thinness and equates it to health and moral virtue. It promotes weight loss as a means of attaining a higher status. It demonizes certain ways of eating while elevating others and it oppresses people who don’t match up with the supposed picture of health which disproportionately harms trans, bigger bodies, people with disabilities, people of color and it can be damaging to both mental and physical health. Lauren: Right. Jen: Right because they just, they aren’t represented in a diet culture. Annie: Yeah, and- Lauren: This is not something we’re even conscious or aware of, right? The fact that it’s so embedded in our culture, is it’s just what we’ve grown up with, it’s what we’re taught to do and you know, we’re not consciously aware of these thoughts or behaviors sometimes, it’s just there. Jen: My social media feed used to be filled with before and after photos because those are the types of pages I followed. Just diet pages, weight loss pages, fitness professionals that were constantly posting before and afters of themselves and their clients and so essentially, anytime I was on social media, which for a lot of women is quite a bit, I was looking at before and after photos and that absolutely affects the way you think and see the world. Lauren:  And how you feel about yourself. Jen: Yeah. Annie: And it’s in the marketing of our foods, too. I had a FaceTime conversation with Jen about this topic last week and I got off the phone after talking about diet culture, opened up my fridge and here my yogurt says “light and fit”, you know, to me that’s ingrained diet culture or you know, we’re calling foods “guilt free” or there’s guilt, you know, I think- Jen: It is, it is honestly everywhere and back to the car analogy, it’s like, it’s like roads are everywhere, if you came across a spot in a city that had no roads to drive down, you would go, “What on earth is going on here?” You just take for granted that roads are going to be everywhere and in our society diet culture is everywhere, everywhere. Annie: And again, it also, you know, we’ll talk about this how it oppresses certain populations in a little bit as well but we’re really just seeing one type of body, which we were talking about this before we even started recording, it’s thin white women, you know, in the diet industry. Jen: Of a certain age. Annie:  Of a certain age, yes and that can be really harmful and if you don’t stop to question these things, you’ll probably just go with the flow, you know, you’ll just kind of keep swimming with everyone else. Jen: I used to model, which I’ve shared in the podcast before, and I was told at 19 that I was getting old for modeling and that if I hadn’t made it internationally by the time I was 21 that I did not have a future in modeling so that is an indicator of the types of models that we’re seeing. They are very, very young. Annie: Babies. Jen: Yeah. Like most girls go big when they’re like 14 and I was told at 14 by a model agent that I had the perfect body, like, I was perfect at that point to be a model, to have a career as a model in women’s fashion magazines when I was 14 years old. Annie: At 14. Yeah, yeah, you’re selling to adult women as a 14-year old that’s a crazy concept to wrap your head around. Jen: Yes. Annie: But, you know, in addition to talking about what it is and what it looks like and what it feels like, I really want to spend a fair amount of time to on why it matters because, you know, before I was familiar with the concept of diet culture, I thought it was just kind of like on a really individual level, you know, like, I thought like, “Oh, this is just what how this person is choosing to spend their time” and I wasn’t really aware of how it impacted our community or our society and Jen, you know, you said on a previous podcast, like, we talk about how we want society to change or how we want our culture to change, well, that starts with us. Jen: Yeah, we are society, we’re part of it. Annie: We’re part of it. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Yes, so let’s talk about why it’s harmful because it’s harmful to individuals, it’s harmful to families and it’s harmful to communities and the first one, which we kind of touched on is it oppresses a large majority of the population on an individual level, you know, just on ourselves, it encourages people to believe that they are less than until they achieve some level of weight loss or fitness goals, right. It makes you engage in self-doubt, you doubt yourself, you feel like you can’t trust your own instincts. It lures you into thinking that you failed because you couldn’t stick to your diet plan and oftentimes people that are engaged in that kind of thinking are thinking things like “I can’t do this because I look like this. I can’t do this because my body is this” and I have personally experienced that. I remember my husband wanting me to go rock climbing and I couldn’t, like, I was too worried about could I, am I going to fit into the harness? Is the harness going to hold me? Is this something that my body is allowed to do, like, and it turns out I could have, I just was too wrapped up in thinking- Jen: You were too big to do this. Annie:  Yeah, the self-doubt that that was my limiting factor, right. And then on a community level, it contributes to a culture that makes it acceptable to treat people as less than because of their bodies, right and in fact, when I was researching this there was one study that I came across that it noted that 15 percent of hiring managers, only 15 percent of hiring managers, would hire an overweight woman for a job. So essentially it’s allowing employers to see overweight people as sloppy or lazy and just not hire them. Jen: Yeah and so you don’t see the person or their skills or their education, you see the body. Annie: And we’ve talked about that, or talked around about that, you know, about how what it looks like when you go to McDonald’s and sit and have you know a cheeseburger and French fries versus what it looks like when a larger body goes to McDonald’s. Jen: Yes, thin women can post photos on social media of eating like a whole pizza and be proud of it and people will high 5 them and I think there’s even, I read a blog post a couple years ago, I can’t remember the author now but basically it showed comments under this photo of a like a thin, gorgeous girl eating a huge pizza and there were males saying “Oh,  that’s so sexy” and then next to a photo of a really large woman eating a whole pizza and the comments were “That is so disgusting.” Annie: That’s just heartbreaking and eye-opening. Jen: It’s awful. As far as going, “Hey”, like trying to address the diet culture we live in and your everyday behaviors and the way you talk and think around it, like, that’s really what we’re trying to address here, right, like there are people that are seriously hurt because of some of your unconscious everyday behaviors that contribute to upholding a society that oppresses A lot of people in our culture. Annie: And you know, I have no doubt that there are people with hearts of gold and good intentions that are engaging in diet culture like Jen: Absolutely, I mean, there’s probably still areas of my life if I really dug in, I mean, that’s all part of our work, right, is unraveling that. Annie: Yeah, it’s oftentimes not intentional. It’s just, you know, what you’ve learned, what people of before you have done, what you’ve seen other people do, what you’ve heard other people say, you know, I remember, like, early as a trainer talking about concepts that I, that would make me cringe now in terms of diet culture and it’s like, when you know better you can do better and that’s part of what we want this podcast to do today is just start creating some discussion and awareness about what diet culture is and how it impacts our lives. Jen: Yeah, I even recently have been thinking about something. So I love LuluLemon leggings, they are my favorite. They fit me so well and they’re really good quality, I love them and recently a bigger woman called me on shopping there. She said “You are supporting a company that will not carry my size and has openly had the founder talk about that they don’t cater to women my size” and I felt really uncomfortable and that’s something so I’m just, full disclosure, being open about my own journey but I’m really kind of sitting with that and going like “Am I going to be OK with that that they don’t carry over a certain size and I’m going to keep shopping there or can I keep shopping there but bring it up to management, write letters, like, you know, what can I do?” Like, because I don’t feel good about that and then the other one was Victoria’s Secret which I have vocally and openly called out that company for years and years now of their objectification of women. And they recently went public on record to say that they don’t make larger sizes because that’s not their market and they don’t want to sell to women in that market and I have not supported Victoria’s Secret for years and years but that is just something for us all to think about, right, like would you would you keep supporting a company that said they don’t want to sell to black women? Annie: Right. Jen: Like that’s not their market? Or disabled people? Sorry, our store is not wheelchair accessible because we don’t want, we don’t want people who are in wheelchairs in this store. Annie: Yeah. When you take it out of the terms of bodies and when you put it in that context, it’s a no brainer, right? Jen: Yeah and I mean that is part of living in a diet culture that we all so, we don’t even think about that oppression of larger people, right, so, you know, and as soon as you take it into that context of color or ability then it’s like “Oh, wow, no, that’s awful” but then you bring it back to bodies and you’re like “Is that awful? I don’t know. I have to think about that.” Because it’s just so ingrained that you really have to think about it. So those are some thoughts I’ve been sitting with lately just being honest with our audience that it is a journey and you will continually realize that there are ways that you contribute to supporting diet culture. Annie: Well, I mean, yeah and just again, all the ways that it shows up in your life. I mean my drink of choice used to be a skinny latte from Starbucks or like eating skinnypop popcorn, two things that I really enjoy I hate the name. Lauren:  Yeah. Annie: Why did they have to be named that? And you know, so can we just call it nonfat lattes? Jen: Yes. Annie: Like yes, yes i can. I don’t have to engage in that or I can stop buying that product as you noted or I can call it something else or you know, my light and fit Greek yogurt, sorry, Yoplait. I don’t like the name, I like your yogurt, I don’t like the name. In addition though to, going back to how it’s harmful, oppressing individuals and on a community level, it also hurts, as Jen noted ,people of color, those with disabilities, people live in poverty because they’re just less likely to be able to access the tools that some people believe can “cure” or address some of these health-related issues or size-related issues such as health care, gym memberships, nutrient-dense food and in fact, I went back and reference Linda Bacon’s book Body Respect, which is a great book if you haven’t read it. And she notes that social and societal differences account for the largest part of the population’s health, even more so than behaviors, biology or genes so really, like the culture, the socioeconomic status that you are brought up in, you’re raised in that you’re living in, plays a bigger, way bigger role than what you’re choosing to eat or- Jen: Yeah, I often say, like, if you are going to be talking about the health of our society and losing your mind over obesity rates, you better be bringing socio-economic conditions into that conversation and letting me know what you are doing to bridge that divide in socio-economic situations across your culture because you cannot stand on your platform and talk about how everybody just needs to eat healthier, you know, what I mean? Once you start understanding the big picture you start to understand actually how useless- Lauren:  Like all you need to do is buy all organic produce, lean meats that are grass-fed, get the special bulletproof coffee drink and you’ll be good to go, right? Jen: Right, it’s elitist, it really only helps- Annie: Privileged people. Jen: People in privileged people, right, helps or harms, that’s a whole other question because if you already have those privileges, you know, somebody is just making you anxious about not being privileged enough or perfect enough then, you know, it’s, anyways so yeah, I mean, part of our work, if we really do care about the health and wellbeing of our society is about how to raise children up out of poverty so that we can see them with better outcomes in life, right? Annie: And just, again, going back to the definition of diet culture, you know, that it promotes thinness and equates it to health and moral virtue, like, you know,  I’m not any better or worse than someone that’s going to the gym or that has a gym membership or that eats organic bananas than is, you know, than someone that eats conventional bananas, like, but so often we do, we praise people that have those behaviors, that have access to those services or memberships that’s like, they’re doing something right, right?  They’re just better. Jen: Yeah but people love to hear that, like, people love to hear, people love rags to riches stories and so you, like, even I look back on myself, you know, I am a thin, white woman, like I have so many privileges in our society because just because of those things. I was born Caucasian and thin. But I even look back on, you know, the way I used to pat myself on the back, like, as if I was just this, like, awesome hard worker and it’s not that I didn’t work hard for certain things, you know, for my education, for everything that I have today for, you know, that I do work out and consistent with exercise but you know, there was a time in my life where it was an elitist thing almost, like, I thought I was, you know, just extra special for whatever reason but it turns out I actually was born with a headstart in life that a lot of people didn’t have and for somebody to start a health and wellness company and grow it to what we’ve grown ours to in the last 4 years as a fat woman of color, now that is hard work. Do you know what I mean? Like, there’s just certain privileges that the 3 of us have that allowed us to, that people will take advice from us online because we’re all thin. Annie: Yeah it’s that this is a heavy topic. Jen: It’s uncomfortable. It’s uncomfortable for us to acknowledge our own privileges, like it really is but it’s so important in order to, if you want to see more equality in our society, like, women, we talk about it all the time, wanting equality with men and that seems to be an easier conversation to flow. But then, you like, let’s talk about all equality, right, and then that means it’s easy to sit back and be a victim of inequality but like what if you are a perpetuator of inequality, like that is uncomfortable. Annie: Yeah. Jen: But that is so important. We expect men to do it, right, we want men to do it. Annie: To be able to objectively look at our behaviors and say, like, “I could be potentially contributing to the problem” It’s like- Jen: Yeah like here are small ways- Annie: It’s hard to face. Jen: Here are small ways. Yeah, exactly. Annie: Absolutely. OK, so backing up, how it’s harmful. It oppresses a large majority of the population, I mean, when we say large, like, that’s pretty much everyone except for thin white people, I mean, which is, like, that leaves a lot of people out, that’s really exclusive. Jen: Yes. So just if, people who are struggling understand this, if you go do a google image search of and just type in like “health and fitness” you will be met with images, 99 percent of the images that come up are, like, thin white people. Annie: Yeah. Jen: I feel like I need to do that real quick. Lauren: I’m doing it right now. Jen: OK just to make sure I’m right. Annie: I just, as you know, as a personal trainer I know that I’ve searched personal trainer images it’s all white men. Jen: Or if you type in healthy women, so I just typed in healthy women on a google image search and I’m scrolling to the scrolling, scrolling, I saw one black woman, one, rest, oh here’s a woman laying in a bed of fruit with a tape measure wrapped around her waist. So yeah, it’s just thin white women, that’s all it is. Annie: Yeah and that’s not, that’s not true representational, truly representational of health. Jen:  Absolutely not. You feel, then, the idea of diet culture is that you have to be a thin white woman to be healthy. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Right. Annie: And that so far from the truth that it’s ridiculous. OK. Moving on. Another reason it’s harmful, one of the many reasons diet culture is harmful is that our kids are catching on quickly to this culture, the the new normal of these behaviors and conversations. We’ve shared these statistics so many times. I’m going to share them again because, like, it needs to be heard again and again and again. Over 80 percent of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat. 80 percent of 10 year olds are afraid of being fat. 53 percent of 13 year old American girls are unhappy with their bodies. The number grows to 78 percent by the time they reach 17, by middle school 40 to 70 percent of girls are dissatisfied with 2 or more of their body parts and I mean, that’s just 3 of the many alarming statistics. And inside of Balance365, Jennifer, you share an observation from author Jan Jacobs Brownsburg, do your remember this, when you wrote about this? How she had been studying girls diaries. Jen: Yeah, yeah it’s in the 1st chapter of Balance365. Annie: And you read her book and you noted that she was writing about how girls, she was studying girls diaries and how these girls were writing about a desire to better themselves and she notes that the difference was pre-war, they were talking about being the self development was focused on helping others and putting more effort into school or reading and by the 1990s bodies had become a preoccupation, that they were writing about. Jen: And appearance and makeup and fashion and yes so this is also such a hard conversation because what if you really like fashion, you know? Where Hilary McBride pointed out in our of the last podcast we did with her. You know, are our interests and beliefs and you know, all of that, is that who we are or is that shaped by our culture? And so- Lauren: It’s messy. Jen: It’s very messy, right and but yes, so basically that book looked at what girls valued and how they wanted to better themselves 100 years ago versus today and that there are there’s just been a dramatic shift in values over the last 100 years where I think most women would say “Gosh, like, you know, I wish, I wish my daughter was more focused on school than boys and makeup and all of that but that’s the culture we live in” Like, you can say one thing as a parent, “Hey, this is where you should invest your time and energy as a girl to be successful in life, to be happy, to be fulfilled” but when you have a whole culture and society telling them differently, they’ll stop listening to you. My Mom, my mother was so amazing at that, my mom was so ahead of the game in the nineties raising me in the 2000s. But, you know, I was surrounded and I was in a culture that clearly valued bodies. I remember when Britney Spears’ first single dropped in she had the, I remember just crowding around the CD in the CD insert, like the first friend who went and got the CD, they would pull the insert out and we would all just- Annie: Read the lyrics and look at the photos. Jen: Yeah we were just surrounded, like, looking at these photos of Britney Spears and she was wearing a little skirt and it was just, like, everything right and yeah, and we even see it in Healthy Habits Happy Moms, our own Facebook group, where we want to so badly want to see this shift, we see, once in a while women might come in and post a before and after photo, they may be new to our group or whatever, they don’t understand the culture in there yet and even when that happens it will get so much attention. Well, I noticed the other day that a woman posted in the last year she has added in a couple habits and her triglyceride levels are back down into a normal healthy range and it did not barely get any engagement and I look at that stuff and I think, even in our group, it’s so depressing because it’s like that is what health is, like, those are the things we should be celebrating. We don’t know what that picture means. We don’t know if her blood pressure is through the roof. We, it’s just, yes so, it’s just, it’s so depressing to me. I’m like Society doesn’t care if people are healthy, they care that they’re thin. Lauren: Right, like stop framing it as health and wellness, right? It’s thinness that you are  celebrating but back to the the diaries of the girls thing too, we talk about all the time how women say in our in our Balance365 group, like, I have all this time and mental space that has opened up since I stopped focusing on my body and dieting and like, I kind of see that in this this study from this author, like, where would we be if we weren’t so focused on ourselves and our bodies, like, where would we be if we were all still trying to better ourselves in other ways? Jen: Right, would fighting for equality with men still be a conversation? Like imagine if women took all the time and energy they put into their bodies and their appearance and put that on equality- Lauren: Or any issue. Jen: Any issue, getting politically active or you know, yeah. Annie: Which is a great segue into the 3rd way I wrote down why it’s harmful is it keeps us from living our lives and as we’ve talked about, our conversations are consumed with diet talk, weight talk, body shaming. On a really small scale, we hesitate to eat kids cake at birthday parties or we hesitate at going out to eat with a girlfriend because we are fearing putting on weight or deviating from our meal plan but I know the 3 of us have talked about that we could not have started this business if we were still eating, breathing, living diet culture. Like we wouldn’t have the capacity for it. Jen: I did a talk for a women’s studies class last year via video through, I was just asked to do it remotely basically so I filmed it in my home and it was for the University of the Saskatchewan, a women’s studies course and I did my 1st year of university at the University of Saskatchewan and at that time I wanted to be a doctor. When I started university I wanted to be a doctor and I had to basically drop out by my 2nd semester. I had to move down to part time studies because I was struggling with an eating disorder by then. It just, it was my whole life, it became my whole life. I was starving, my B.M.I. was 17, I was running on a treadmill for like one to two hours a day every morning, not eating, it just it consumed me and that might be a more extreme result of living in a diet culture is actually developing an eating disorder but there was a study done in the States, I think the University of Southern California and they surveyed 10000 women and 65 percent of women report having disordered eating behaviors. That’s huge. Lauren: I had the same experience and I think it’s, I think maybe getting a diagnosable eating disorder is rare but struggling with disordered eating and having it take up your life is not rare. Jen: No it’s very common. Lauren: Yeah I remember coming home, in my senior year it it took up my entire life. I wouldn’t go out because I had to come home and I had to do my workout and I had to eat my broccoli, like I could go out and eat. I had to come home and yeah, just the same way that you’re describing. It took over my entire life. Annie: I am just scrolling on Instagram, I swear it was Erin Brown wrote, had a quote or shared a quote at one point about how all the possibilities and opportunities that have been missed because women were worrying if their thighs were too big. Jen: Yeah. Lauren: Yeah Annie:  And that hit home for me. I mean, everything from rock climbing to saying no to opportunities to speak or present or share or work with a client or you know and I think about some, just in the health and wellness world, some of the women in our community that have even expressed, like, I have a really an interest in helping other people, becoming a personal trainer, becoming a nutritionist, getting the certification but will people want to take advice from me because I look like this? Which is anything outside of the norm and that’s really sad, that’s unfortunate, really unfortunate so I want to do our part to break that, right? Jen: Yeah and the messy part of this conversation is trying, talking about weight loss in the context of it not being about diet culture. So that is a really hard conversation to have because we are all about body autonomy and letting women decide what’s right for them and for some women, fat loss is part of their wellness vision. And so, you know, but in within Balance365 constructs you would understand that it’s behavior change that leads to sustainable fat loss etc, etc, etc, we have many podcasts about this. And so that is just really and that’s why chapter one of Balance365 is diet deprogramming because you really have to untangle what it is, what is driving these thoughts, right? That is something really tricky to untangle so where we talk, you know, Annie has lost. Annie used to be a size 22 and now she’s a size 12, is that right, Annie? Annie: Ish. Yeah. Depending on the brand. Jen: Yes and so for, Annie getting healthy, ditching diet mindset, ditching disordered eating, cultivating healthy habits that she can stick to resulted in losing 10 dress sizes which is amazing and I will celebrate that with Annie. I do not think of Annie as a better person than when she was a size 22. I think she was just as worthy. Annie may not have felt that but, and that is the whole problem in our society that we actually believe we are more worthy when we’re smaller. However, on the flip side, me doing all those same things, ditching dieting, ditching disordered eating, ditching and actually cultivating healthy habits that work for me in my life have resulted in me being about 20 to 25 pounds heavier than my leanest weight. And so that is a really important thing for women to understand when we talk about Balance365 and we address weight, we are there to help women become a healthy weight and that is going to look different for everybody. I am not interested in any way in supporting a woman in figuring out how to live life at a weight that is not healthy or sustainable for her. I am not interested in giving her a bunch of diet tricks that make sure, you know, that allow her to be super lean certain times of the year, that’s just not where our focus is and so Balance365 really, you know, the conversation is more about, is not about what losing weight, it’s like what is a healthy weight for you and the thing is in Balance365 so many women have dieted for so many years they don’t even know what that is. Like they haven’t been able to maintain their weight for 3 months, let alone figuring out what maintaining their weight for years and years even looks like for them and I know I didn’t know. I was just constantly going, you know, because I was constant dieting, disordered eating, rebounding. I was basically slingshotting to below what a healthy weight is for me and then right back to above and below and above and I was just slingshotting back and forth where once I found my, you know, what’s healthy for me was basically smack dab in the middle of that and that is what I have been able, that I maintain my weight for the last 4 years through, you know, even some very stressful seasons of life, like because this is actually what’s healthy for me, but that can be a tough pill to swallow for women because for some women that weight is actually heavier than what they are now and that’s terrifying for some women. Lauren: And I think it’s hard for us to communicate that in a diet culture, right, like it’s hard for us to communicate we’re going to help you get the size of body that’s right for you. It’s not always weight loss, sometimes it’s weight gain, sometimes it’s, you know, you’re pretty much the same weight but you have more freedom, you know, to eat the way you want. Annie: Because in diet culture weight loss is equal to a higher status. Jen: Yes, always. Yes. So in a diet culture weight loss is always the goal, right. Annie: Right. Jen: Yes but we do, you know, we’ve got women who have lost significant amounts of fat inside our program but for them, being in those larger bodies was a prison for them because that was not the right weight for them, it was well above what was healthy and sustainable for them and a person gets to that space because of diet culture, because of the constant yoyoing of diets and every time they diet they lose 10 pounds and they put on 35. They go on another diet, they lose 10 and they put on another 35 and at some point those women, fat loss becomes it isn’t about diet culture anymore, isn’t about worthiness, it’s about reclaiming the body that they were always meant to have had they never gone on a diet at all. Lauren: Right and going back to diet culture, our culture is to blame people with larger bodies, right, that it’s their fault that they are in a larger body when it’s diet culture that put them there. Annie: Exactly. Lauren: Many, many times, right? It’s because of the dieting that they’re in a body that’s larger for them and obviously, that’s not universally true but in a lot of cases. Jen: Yes. Annie: Yeah, I feel like we could spend hours talking about how this harmful on so many levels. But I also want to leave some time and some space to talk about how we can kind of start to change it and the first one, I feel like this is our answer to everything on changing everything is just creating awareness, like, you know, like, we’ve talked about this in so many pockets on various topics but just opening your eyes and paying attention to what is diet culture, where you see it, where you experience it and where you hear it and just like start listening, start paying attention. Because as Jen said earlier, once you start seeing it, you’ll realize it’s everywhere. The second thing is break up with dieting. And I want to be clear that you don’t have to be on a diet to participate in diet culture, like that’s key. Like this isn’t just something that people who are dieting are participating in. But also that giving up on diet culture doesn’t mean that you’re giving up on your health. Like there are other options. And one of the ways you can start breaking up with dieting is to question the rules that you’ve been taught, the “rules”, right? The foods that you’ve labeled as good and as bad, your relationship with exercise, like what does that look like, are we exercising to punish ourselves, because we hate ourselves, because we think when we’re thin our life is going to be perfect and we’re going to have the perfect body and people who weigh less have less problems. And this can take years, like this is, I mean, as Jen mentioned earlier when she’s talking about some of how her decisions she still is kind of wrangling with, like, we’ve been in this and we’ve been doing this sort of work for almost 4 years and we’re still, or if not longer but specifically with our company for for almost 4 years and we’re still, like, kind of wading through the mud, like it’s cloudy and it’s messy and it’s muddy and it’s like, is this health? Is this diet culture? Is this supporting where I want to go or is this, like, disguised, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, so to speak? And then also vote with your dollars and your energy. Just a simple refusal to feed the diet industry, buying products that support it, whether it’s food, systems, magazines etc. You know your yogurts, your places you’re shopping, where you’re buying your clothes. Jen: And this stuff works. It can feel hopeless but, like, we are seeing a shift, like we are seeing a shift and people are getting really loud about it and companies are paying attention. Because we are seeing, we have never had so much, we don’t have a lot of diversity but we have never seen so much diversity in the media as we do today and that is from the work of all of us individually just throwing those pebbles into a pond which eventually make a wave. Annie: One of the places I really like to shop is Aerie, even, I don’t know if there’s an age limit on Aerie. Lauren: I really like Aerie too. Annie: I really like it and every time I go in there there are, you know, they’ve openly declared that they have stopped photoshopping their models, there’s often disabilities, women with disabilities in their marketing. There is, you know, not maybe as large of a variety of body types and skin colors as I would like to see but it’s more so than it was, you know, 3, 4, 5 years ago and just to circle back to LuLuLemon, obviously anyone that follows me knows that I love my Lululemon and I’m an ambassador for them and I would say the same thing for them too, following them on social media, they are carrying additional size ranges, like, they’re, I think they’re moving, what I see from them is- Jen: They’re moving Annie: They’re moving in that direction. Jen: And the thing is so, it’s understanding too, I remember, Annie, we had this talk right so the political party that I have traditionally voted for in Canada frustrates me to no end and so much so that actually our last federal election I did not vote for them and that’s sometimes is a stand that you have to take as a person but there’s another choice is to get involved in that industry or those companies or that political party and try to make change from within and so as far as Lululemon I don’t know if I’m going to stop shopping there but I am thankful for the awareness that my friend brought to me to say, “You know you’re supporting a store that doesn’t even want women my size in there” and that just stopped me in my tracks and what I am definitely going to be doing is going in and saying “This is how you make people feel, people I love and what do you have to say about that?” and that will be escalated. I recently took a stand at my local pool, so this is just another small example but I shared this on social media, I haven’t shared it on our podcast yet but there’s a swim club at my local swimming pool and I witnessed this male coach probably in his late teens, early twenties talking to a group of probably 11, 12, 13 year old kids making fun of people who are over 200 pounds and just the way he was, it was awful and I was sitting in the hot tub while he was doing this with the team and I’m sitting with my kids and after they left I really had a very, I addressed it with my children, like “That was not OK,” etc  but then I’m not going to stop going to the pool, like that is a place that we enjoy and frequent. What I did do was I went to management and told them that this had happened and they were so thankful and now they will work, because the swim club is an external club that comes in, so now they will work with the club to make sure the club understands that this is a body-inclusive environment and that is not OK. So there are ways of, you know, there are certain brands you might love, you know, etcetera but until they are like that Victoria Secret, I mean Victoria’s Secret stepped up and said: “No, we are not changing.” They basically said, “We do not want big women in our stores.” I will not shop there anymore, that is my choice but I haven’t shopped there for years. If you have followed me long enough on social media you’ll know why. Annie: You’ve had some runins with Victoria Secret. Jen: They know me but so that’s just a choice you can make. You don’t have to walk away, it doesn’t have to be this break up, it can be like “Hey, I support you and I love you guys, I love your brand but here’s what I need from you to keep supporting you.” Annie: Which is actually a conversation that I have had many times with my local Lululemon store and they’re all about it. They are they are game to do whatever they can to help support that as well, I mean, they acknowledge that like “Yeah, we would love to be able to dress all women and like how can we make our voices heard and what actions can we take and how can we be more inclusive and more welcoming to men and women of all varieties even while in this very moment we only serve pant sizes up to a 12 or a 14? What else can we do, how can, you know, how can we start to create change?” and you know, these are the tough and sometimes uncomfortable conversations we need to have. Lauren: Well and I think too it’s sometimes even more impactful than boycotting, right, to have Annie in they’re saying, like, “Look, this is how what you’re doing impacts me, impacts these people, right? Annie: Right. Yeah and in addition to refusing to feed the diet industry, kind of along the same lines as to build your life online and in real life with people, books, music that support how you want to feel and hopefully that’s not a part of the diet culture and my friend Meghan talks about nourishing her body and when she first told me that nourishment was one of her core values, I kind of rolled my eyes because I thought she was going to give me this like elitist version of how she eats paleo. Jen: Green smoothies. Annie: Yes and what she was talking about, how she defines nourishment is what she puts in her ears, what she puts in her body, how  she moves her body, what she reads, what she consumes on social media, like those are all the ways in which she nourishes her body and I love that definition and you know, just like Jen said earlier, you know, her feed used to be filled with before and afters and I’m guessing you’ve unfollowed. Jen: No, I don’t see any of that anymore. It’s jarring to me when I see before and after photos now, I’m like “Oh, where did that come from?” Annie: Yeah and it’s like, it’s OK, sometimes, you know, unfortunately like the saying “fences make good neighbors”, you know some of your friends might be really heavily engaged in diet culture still and you might have to unfollow or set some boundaries. Jen: Yeah, I say “It’s not personal, It’s about me, not you” right, like, “You go ahead and post your before and after photos, it doesn’t serve me and if I saw the odd one now I’d be fine but I I recognize it’s a slippery slope, right, if you have, you get on Facebook for 15 minutes and you have 16 before and after photos come through your feed, like eventually, eventually, that becomes our reality, like, it just does so yeah, curating your environment is so important. Annie: Yeah what else do you want to add before we pop off? I mean, I know this is such a heavy topic and there’s so many aspects and components to diet culture but I just really wanted to kind of throw something out there sooner rather than later for our community who might be new and might be struggling with the concept of diet culture and because even it’s so subtle sometimes I miss it, you know, sometimes I don’t even realize that what I just participated in was diet culture, what I just bought was supporting diet culture. Jen:  I would say it’s OK to like get to the awareness stage and start noticing and making small changes in your life, one thing that I feel very passionate about is not overwhelming women and feeling like they have to be the only crusader for this cause, like, we really have only so much time and energy and number one needs to be taking care of you because you will never be able to take care of others until you can take care of you and us three going from the awakening to the taking care of us to making sure our cups are filled to starting this company to becoming crusaders that was a years in the making process, right, like, I didn’t realize one day diets don’t work and I have been part of this machine that exploits women’s vulnerabilities for my whole life to the next day starting a podcast and talking about all these issues, like, I mean, we’re talking years so don’t feel like you have to do all the things in one day but you’ve got to make sure you’re taken care of  first. Lauren: Yup. Annie:  The awakening, that sounds- Lauren: I like that too. Annie:  I was like “Whoa, yes! Sign me up for that” Jen: Stay woke, friends. Annie: Stay woke to diet culture. That should be our new hashtag. Lauren: Hashtag. Annie: Hashtag stay woke to diet culture. Lauren: Tag us if you use it. Annie: All right this was and can be a really heavy topic but, and it is serious, like this is detrimental to our individual and cultural health and especially our children who are just unknowingly, you know, being exposed to it. We had a really great podcast on boundaries where we talked where Jen made the analogy that compared it to secondhand smoke and diet culture is the same way, you know, like that’s, you know- Jen: Just blowing smoke in your kids’ faces all day long. Annie: Yeah and we don’t doubt the intentions or love that a parent would have for their children, so creating awareness to how harmful this can be is, you know, the first step to really making some steps in the right direction but if you want to continue the discussion, if you want to discuss what is diet culture, what it isn’t, is what you’re experiencing or what you’re participating in part of the problem or part of the solution please join us inside our private Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy moms 40000 women that would be happy to continue this discussion inside there and the 3 of us are in there too participating as well so if you have more questions or if you’re still confused or if there is something that you want to talk about that we didn’t talk about in this hour, let us know we’re here, like this is just, I have a feeling this is just going to be an ongoing topic. Jen: Yeah this was the tip of the iceberg. Annie: Yes, the tip of the iceberg, exactly All right, well thank you ladies, it was a good chat. Jen: Yes. Annie: Alrighty, bye bye. Jen: Bye. Lauren: Bye.     The post 49: Diet Culture Explained appeared first on Balance365.

Show Nuts: *Who Knows: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/who-knows/id1320631599?mt=2&i=1000427154957 *Lauren was on The Waves, Winter Call In Edition (around 19 min): https://twitter.com/laurenpassell/status/1080840490856181762 Previous Podcast Challenge for Eric: Lost and Found: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/stitcher-premium/lost-found Overall rating: THIS WAS A HOME RUN. A MUST LISTEN! Podcast Challenge for Lauren: It's Been A Minute, Comedian Guy Branum Wants to Change the Boys Club of Comedy https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/667448012/comedian-guy-branum-wants-to-change-the-boys-club-of-comedy Clip 1: Life Kit: Exercise, Build An Exercise Habit That Sticks https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/learn-to-love-or/build-an-exercise-habit-that-98CmuSdny3M/ Clip 2: Three Swings, Billy Bean, Daniel Murphy, and the MLB Closet https://open.spotify.com/show/6jjUkVf2e2RKRwdBCf2DWT BONUS: Put Your Hands Together: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/earwolf/put-your-hands-together-with-cameron-esposito/e/56558803?offset=213&autoplay=true&refid=asi_eml Justin Time: Yo, Is This Racist? 1006 Punching Up and Down w/ Rhea Butcher https://www.earwolf.com/episode/punching-up-and-down-w-rhea-butcher/

Free Morning Routine Habit Tracker! Mornings can be tough but they don’t have to be. Annie and Lauren chat with Makenzie Chilton of Love Your Mondays about the morning routine she recommends for her clients. In just 23 minutes, you can effect positive change on the trajectory of your day. Find out more about simple steps you can take starting tomorrow to make all of your tomorrows better. What you’ll hear in this episode: The scientific benefits of routine What is positive psychology? If you can only do one thing, this is it The power of gratitude Why you shouldn’t reach for your phone first in the morning Strengthening neural pathways for positivity The practice of daily journaling The mind-body connection Movement in the morning – why it matters Multitasking vs monotasking Acts of kindness Tim Ferriss’ approach to a morning routine All or nothing mindset and morning routines What implementing the morning routine for 60 days felt like Seinfeld’s Chain Theory How your brain responds to checking things off  your to-do list The Ta-Da List – what it is and how it works Managing your screen time and the anxiety of disconnection Removing obligations to respond to things before you are ready Resources: Sean Achor TED Talk Tim Ferriss Morning Routine Seinfeld’s Chain Theory The Ta-Da List – Makenzie’s Instagram Post Love Your Mondays Website Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: If you’re like Lauren, Jen or I mornings can leave you feeling a little frazzled. Whether you wake up to an alarm clock or like mine, your alarm clock has two legs, stinky morning breath, needs a diaper change and is demanding breakfast, mornings can often feel chaotic and adding one more thing to your am to do list might not sound so doable but on today’s episode career coach and productivity specialist Makenzie Chilton shares a short and sweet morning routine that is scientifically backed to amplify positivity in the brain and optimize productivity throughout the rest of your day because let’s be honest, the first hour of your day can really affect the tone for what follows. Plus this only takes 20 minutes and you can include your whole family if you wish. After chatting with Mackenzie on today’s episode Lauren and I have already started to change the way we start our mornings and I think after listening you might be excited to explore it as well. I’m excited to share that we’ve got a super sweet freebie for you. You can download and print this routine and habit tracker off at www.Balance365Life.com/episode48. Mackenzie, welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, thanks for joining us. How are you? Makenzie: Good, thanks for having me. Annie: I am so excited to have you because we’re going to talk about morning routines. Lauren, you’re with us today, do you have a morning routine, Lauren Lauren: No, well, I tried to implement one and my son just doesn’t cooperate so I’m excited. Makenzie: To be honest, like, I know that I’m like “Everybody do this routine” but I’m super not perfect at it and my morning routine is coffee, nonnegotiable. Annie: I can get on board with that. Lauren: Oh, I have that. Makenzie: Yeah, yeah. Anything beyond that I’m just like “These are enhancing things” you know. Annie: Yeah, I could totally get on board with that, you’re not like “Do this or die, comply or die” it’s like, “I said these are going to make your day better” but before we get into that can you tell us how you got into morning routines? Makenzie: Yes. So, I’m a career coach now at Love Your Mondays and my background is in psychology so I feel like my story is not super unique in the way about a lot of people have experienced kind of like my path but my education is kind of unique. So I, typical, like went from high school right to university. And I didn’t know what I wanted to do, which, I feel like it’s a common theme for however old you are, 18, when you go to university. It’s still mind-boggling to me that we’re supposed to like have that figured out. Annie: I know, we’re babies, right? Mackenzie: Yeah and then I had taken psychology all the way through and I’ve always been super fascinated in people’s behavior and you know, why people do things, what’s the motive behind it and then I took this really awesome class in 4th year and it was forensic psych and I thought forensic meant death. Annie: Same. Lauren: Same, right? Makenzie: Yeah. It means, like, the study of Law. So it’s anything to do with law and psychology. At first, I was like,  “How am I going to analyze dead people?” But it’s anything, essentially, with crime and psychology so that’s like the psychology of policing or jury selection or serial killers or mass homicide and those are the things that I focused on because I really found it fascinating how people could behave so differently than the norm, essentially. Then I worked in the prison system here in Canada for 3 years and I absolutely loved that job, like dream job, so I felt very lucky, I still feel very lucky to have experienced a dream job in a way because I felt like I was helping people that nobody wanted to help and I was getting like real progress with these like very violent criminals. But then I got laid off. Yeah, budget cuts, they cut our funding. And I got laid off and I was like “What I do with my life? So I started using the psychology I had and I went into, I worked in management for a while and combined those two things and started Love Your Mondays and so with that became, like, learning about all these, like, productivity things and how to be your best self and a lot of, I call them like, behavioral enhancements or motivators, right and so that’s where the morning routine kind of slid in because I’m not, I don’t thrive on routine, I have like a balance of like, like, chaos a little bit because it’s creative for me and but I also like cycle back to like really needing a morning routine sometimes. Annie: Fascinating. I, all of my, like, side note: murder mystery podcasts like memories are coming back to mind, like, I wonder what she thinks of that which we’ll have to chat about later. Lauren: Yes I was thinking of a lot and I was thinking of the murder podcast and like crime shows, Orange Is The New Black, I’m like- Makenzie: Yeah. Lauren: Let’s just talk about that stuff. Makenzie: Honestly, like, have you seen MindHunter? Lauren: No. Mackenzie: It’s on our Netflix, I think our Netflix is different than yours in the States but, he like goes into prisons in the seventies and he’s the guy that came up with the term serial killer. But that was like, essentially, my job for a while. Annie: Oh, fascinating. Makenzie: Talk to these. Yeah, it’s great. Annie: And now you’re on a podcast helping women with their routines in the morning. Makenzie: Right. Annie: But it’s all connected. Makenzie: It’s a cycle. It’s all behavioral. Annie: Yeah. So you have a routine because this is what you do now, you help people with productivity and starting their day on a little bit more positive note, as you said, like enhancing their day, enhancing their morning. You have your own routine that you shared with other people which is actually how you got connected to us because I think Jen found your morning routine and was like “Let’s talk about this” because so many women I think listening, myself included, are, in the mornings especially, trying to get themselves ready, get kids ready, manage schedules and it can feel like chaos and you’re just like clawing your way through it and it’s just like survival mode but there are some benefits to creating some routine regardless, I know you were going to get into some elements of the routine that you would recommend but there is some science about benefits of routine, right? Makenzie: Yeah, I mean, it’s structure, right, so it’s like a repeatable behavior that we can kind of eventually do without necessarily thinking about it that gives us structure and flow, especially in the morning for setting the tone for the rest of your day. Annie: Gosh, that sounds familiar, Lauren, huh? Lauren: Yes. Annie: We talk about habits all the time and how especially as busy women our motivation and energy and time are just like commodities that are so precious to us and if you can get into the habit of doing things or routine of doing things you can hopefully find yourself in a position where you don’t have to exert large amounts of willpower and motivation and determination and effort to get the results you want to get throughout your day or throughout your lifestyle or your fitness or your food or whatever it is we’re talking about. Hopefully, the idea is that with some of your tips listeners can implement some of those elements to their morning and have a better day overall, right? Makenzie: I want to, like, I’m not a mom, I’m an auntie, a loving auntie. But I do want to acknowledge that I understand that this isn’t maybe something that can be implemented all at once or all together or consistently every day and so I actually met Jennifer in person. And then she was watching my stories where I was talking about this routine on Instagram and she was like “Listen, when I get up in the morning like a truck ran over the cereal bowl and I spill coffee everywhere and I have 3 kids and it’s not happening” and I was like, “OK, fair.” Lauren: It’s kind of like, “Well, what kind of routine can you have when you wake up to a child screaming at you every day?” and I do really like morning routines and I try my best but I just have to remind myself like a lot of times it doesn’t happen or doesn’t happen consistently like I would like it to and I have to remind myself that like this is a season of my life and it’s not going to be this way forever and so I just have to do my best and let that be OK and realize that I’m not going to probably get my morning routine every day until my kids are older and like there’s just, maybe you have some tips for me but it may just be, like, that’s how it has to be for now. Makenzie: Yeah and I honestly, I really like that aspect of looking at it through a non-judgemental lens, right? Because some people will be like, “Well, I should, I should, I should and-” Annie: Or if I can’t do this routine start to finish, perfectly, all day, every day, then I’m not going to do any of it and I’m guessing you would say, like, “Pick what you can do.” Makenzie: Pick what you can do. Pick what you can do and find space even if it’s throughout the day, even if you complete these, it’s 23 minutes total. So when I was talking to Jennifer I was like, “Involve your kids in the morning if you can for certain things, depending on the age, obviously.” Annie: Yeah, well, now, you know, like 23 minutes it’s like, “OK, let’s get going now, my interest is piqued even though I already, I already know what’s in your routine, I’ve looked it over but I’m sure our listeners are like “OK just tell us the routine.” Lauren: Just tell us what it is. Annie: Yes, so tell us the secret. OK. So what do you do? You wake up and what? Do what? Makenzie: Well, I wake up, I used to be, I’m not going to use the words good or bad but I use to just check my phone right away. And I’ve tried to not do that because in my world it just means I immediately have, like, a list of 10 things that I have to do and it takes away from doing this so I like to, what I say, set myself up for success so I know that first thing in the morning, the only thing I have to do is the morning routine and then I kind of continue on with my day. So this routine, I didn’t come up with but I love it, it’s science-based which I’m a super fan of if you can tell, I’m kind of a nerd in that way, so it’s based on the work of Shawn Achor and he’s a positive psychologist, he has like a really, really funny TED talk. Annie: I watched it this morning. We’ll have to link that in the show notes. He’s super entertaining. Lauren: Oh I want to watch it. I really like positive psychology. I took a class on it once. Makenzie: Yeah, it’s amazing and so for people that maybe haven’t heard of positive psychology before it’s, the focus is more on like future, it’s future-focused behavior as opposed to a lot of other types of psychology that can be very diagnostic and past focused. And it looks at kind of, instead of, and he talks about this in the TED talk, instead of looking at the average, he wants to look at those outliers, so those people are operating at like a higher level of either happiness or ability to learn or whatever, whatever the marker is, they actually look at the outliers- Annie: In hopes of moving everyone up with them. Makenzie: Exactly. Annie: Yeah, so it’s, like, you’re, what are you doing well that everyone else can do well also so we can all do well together? Makenzie: Yeah, exactly, so we could all do well, instead of what happens a lot in, like, data science is that they try and figure out what the average is doing within a margin of error so they can prove it or disprove it. Annie: Yeah and sharing is caring, right? So- Makenzie: Exactly. Yeah.  So what he found was that these 5 things and I’ll highlight the one specific thing, if you can only do this one thing then that’s the thing you should do but he found through his research that over 21 days it’ll change the wiring in your brain to make you happier, which is awesome, right? Annie: I’m in for that. Makenzie: Into that but what else he really, really drives home is that when we’re happy our brain operates at an up-level, so as opposed to negative neutral or stressed. So right now you might just be, you know, neutral which is better than being stressed but you aren’t able to think of creative solutions and your brain isn’t operating at a higher capacity like it does when it’s happy. OK, so the morning routine. So the first one is the thing if you can only, only do this one I suggest to people: write down, we’ve all heard this kind of before, but write down 3 things that you’re grateful for and get really specific with these things so thing, like I’m really grateful for my friends, is good but I’m really grateful for my friendship with Naomi because she always makes me laugh and so we see how much how much more specific that is, correct? Lauren: Right. Annie: Yeah. Makenzie: And so the benefit of doing this is that your brain, instead of noticing the negative things in the world first, it’ll train itself to focus on the positive. Annie: Which I really like that, because kind of circling back to the contrast of opening your phone the first thing that, I mean, that’s exactly what I do, I put on my glasses and I grab my phone from my nightstand, I unplug it and I’m opening up email, I’m checking Instagram and almost instantly I’m like, like, it’s just like this wave of, like, this cloud comes over me that’s like, “Oh my gosh, look at all this I have to do, look at all this I have to respond to and then here’s this chick, she looks like she’s just crushing it in the gym and her kids already ate this healthy breakfast and this girl already went for a run and I’m feeling like I’m just I’m already in catch up mode, before my feet even hit the ground I’m already like, “Oh my God, I’ve got to get going” and your suggestion is like don’t touch the phone, wake up and write down three things you’re grateful, three specific things you’re grateful for, so you start already, start focusing on the positive. Makenzie: On the positive. Lauren: I really like that part too because I think we know, I think we’ve talked about before, like, the more you can, you’ve got to create that neural pathway in your brain, right, where like when you think a certain way thoughts that are like that come easier to you, so like I always talk about it in in like, like, body image, right? Like you already have this, a lot of people have this negative thought process going and going and going and thinking like one time one nicer thought about your body, it’s going to feel really hard but the more that you do that the more you strengthen those thoughts. So yeah, I think that’s great and I just see a lot of parallels with a lot of different elements to that. Makenzie: And like this, if anything, if this is the only thing that you can do it still will improve your brain to be- Lauren: Yeah. Annie:  And that takes, what? I mean 3-5 minutes at the most, if that. I mean, some days might be a little bit easier, might be able to come a little bit easier than others, but I mean, that’s not a huge time investment. Makenzie: And I think it’s really interesting when you do it, especially for about 10 days, around the 10-day mark you’re like, well, I’ve already said all the things because at first, it’s like, “Yeah!” Lauren: Oh, right. Makenzie: You know what I mean? And then after you’re like, I’ll just plant. Lauren: Can I repeat? Makenzie: But so then it becomes, like, a really kind of, like, fun exercise to try and find things, you know? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. And I just, on a really simple, like, way of, like, looking at it, it’s like, the more you pay attention to the stuff the more you tend to see it, it’s just like the power of suggestion or whatever, you know? Like someone or when you’re pregnant, like suddenly everyone’s pregnant it’s like, like when you start looking for good stuff, the more good stuff it just seems to naturally appear. Makenzie: And that’s what we want to focus on, especially right as you’re starting your day. Annie: I love it. K, cool what’s next? Makenzie: Next step is journaling about one positive experience that you’ve had in the last 24 hours. And so the science behind this is kind of that your brain is reliving that positive experience and your conscious brain can’t tell the difference between a memory and between reality and so we see this a lot in people that have post-traumatic stress disorder because they’re reliving a terrible event right and their brain doesn’t know if it’s real, if they’re in a threat or not and so we kind of want to capture that and flip it into reliving a positive experience interest. Annie: So how much do you have to journal or is that up to the individual, like, set a timer or just? Makenzie: Yeah, so I think it’s like the first one, so the gratitude write down 3 things is about 3 minutes, this one I do just about 2 minutes, so even if it’s like a cute older couple I saw when I was on my way to the ice cream store, you know, I’ll try and remember if it was raining outside, if there are any smells and you go through kind of all the senses. And it can be as small as you witnessing like a loving glance between a really cute older couple or something like that, so it doesn’t have to be a big thing that necessarily happens to you even, it could be your witnessing of an event but just reliving like a one of those warm and fuzzies, you know. Annie: OK, because I’m over here thinking about like this like Dear Diary journal entry. Like 4 pages in your best handwriting where your hand starts to cramp. Makenzie: I mean, you can. Annie: But like, don’t overthink it, like, it could be something that you witnessed. Makenzie: Don’t overthink it. Annie: Okay. Makenzie: And you want to be like an easy yes, right? So like an easy behavioral habit that you can create for yourself. Annie: Got it. I love it. Makenzie: The next piece is, so Shawn Achor says exercise for 15 minutes, I say move for 15 minutes, any type of movement because I feel like that feels less daunting. For me, like, when I’m going to work out it’s like for 45 minutes to an hour and it’s like a thing and I’ve put the clothes on and you know I’ve to go out and do it and that’s what feels like a lot in the morning for me to do. Annie: Are you a Tim Ferris fan at all? So have you seen him share his morning routine? I guess, I don’t know if he has, like, a cooler name for it but he’s, that’s what it is, he probably has of like cool marketing term for it. Makenzie: Probably, it’s probably like super optimized and super, yeah.   Annie: Like, be 10 times cooler in the morning with these 5 things. But he has something similar in there, he just says do 5 to 10 reps of something and he notes that getting into his body even if it’s just for 30 seconds affects his mood and I think he noted in this particular article that he just does like push-ups right now, like he does 10 push-ups and so, you know, maybe somewhere in between, you know, 10 pushups and 15 minutes or whatever you can give but just this idea that you’re like just getting into your body, you’re priming your body, so to speak, you’re embodying your body can get some endorphins going. Makenzie: Get the endorphins going and improves your, like, mind-body connection, which is such a real thing, like it affects your intuition, it allows you to listen to your body when you’re making decisions. And it’s teaching your brain that your actions matter. Annie: Yes. Makenzie: That’s kind of the link and that’s what we’re trying to get in the morning so it doesn’t have to be this daunting, you know, I’m training for a marathon or whatever it is, not that there’s anything wrong with that but I feel like for people that maybe have kids, this is a way that you can incorporate, depending on the age of your kids, like have a dance party for 15 minutes, like how great would that be, you know? For your little guys in the morning. Lauren: I think that would elevate everyone’s mood, right? Makenzie: Mhmm. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: For sure and it’s not, again, goes back to not a huge time investment. I think we meet a lot of women that are in a spot in their lives where they’re just saying no to exercise period because they can’t commit what they feel is worthy of an exercise routine, you know, like 45 minutes to a half hour, so it’s like, “I can’t do the whole thing so it’s just not good enough. I’m not going to do it at all. Kind of what we were talking about at the beginning with routines, like, I can’t do the whole routine so I’m not going to do any of it but this is, like, just 5 to 10 minutes, like, you know 15 minutes if you’ve got the time or whatever, but if you don’t have 15 minutes, like 5 minutes is better than nothing. Makenzie: Yeah, exactly and that’s, like, one song, like that’s how I kind of do my thing for the morning, I’m like, “OK, these are my 3 pumping up jams and that’s about 9 minutes or whatever it is, right? Annie: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Makenzie: I think it’s good too to just, like, notice where your things are that you want to work on so when you are talking about that it seems daunting to go work out 45 minutes, that’s me, like, I still have issues with consistent exercise because it seems like such a big deal by the time I, like, get sweaty and then I have to shower and so that’s why I do like this in the morning. Because it is easy. Annie: Yeah and you’re still getting benefits of moving your body. Makenzie: Yeah. Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Can we go back to what you said before, you said, “It trains your brain that your actions matter” is that what you said? Makenzie: Yes. Lauren: Can you expand on what that means? Makenzie: So it goes back to that mind-body connection, right, so if you are noticing differences slowly over time and say your energy or in your ability to focus, your brain will be like, “OK this matters, it matters that I do this” and so an alternative examples of that is kind of and I still do this sometimes but someone said this to me and I don’t know where I read it or saw it that when you hit the snooze button, you’re essentially like lying to yourself first thing in the morning, like you’re teaching, right? And I love the snooze but you’re teaching your brain that you can change what matters in the morning right away and that’s how you’re starting your day and so someone said that and I was like “Oh my goodness. Wow.” So I was like, “OK, I don’t want to lie to myself first thing in the morning. But so this is kind of the reverse of that, that even if it’s, so it’s a dance party or it’s a quick 15 minute walk with your dogs or the push up thing, those small things even will teach your brain that what you’re doing is important because you’ll feel the energy, you’ll feel the increased endorphins, you’ll see the ability to focus and your brain will connect that to your body. Lauren: Gotcha so like you’ll want to do it. OK. Annie: Those become the part of the positive reward that follows the movement, in habit speak, yes. Awesome. OK, So, so far we’ve got, just to recap real quick, we have gratitude: writing down 3 things that you’re grateful for, then a little journaling reliving a positive experience and then exercise, 10 to 15 minutes, move your body whether it’s like dance party, a yoga, some squats, some pushups, a walk with the dogs, a run, whatever it is. Makenzie: Whatever it is. Annie: And then what’s next? Makenzie: So this one is both a buzzword right now or maybe for a little while but it’s meditation and I first found this like really daunting and I expected to be sitting in like, you know, typical yoga pose and like become enlightened real quick and the best description I found for meditation is, because I thought you were supposed to clear your mind, right, I thought that was the purpose and you are, but it’s focusing on your breath which is the key point number one and then letting your thoughts pass through without judgment and so I think that’s something that isn’t necessarily always taught in meditation classes that I’ve taken or certain apps that you can just download without any kind of background but my meditation teacher was, she said that and she was like “We’re just noticing that you’re really wanting coffee” and then you let it pass and then you go back to focusing on your breath. And so we’re only going to do this for 2 minutes in the morning. So 2 minutes breathing in, breathing out. Some people are really visual, so what I found super helpful is to breathe in and imagine you’re breathing in the color blue through your nose and then you’re breathing out the color red. And that like allows me to actually focus and do it. My thoughts will still come in but then I always, you just always kind of come back to the breath. Annie: I wonder how many people are breathing in blue and flowing out red right now because I’m pretty sure I was and I really, like, I really, I can picture that like- Makenzie: Yeah. Annie: And there’s I don’t know if this was intentional but the color association with, like, blue is, like, invigorating and light and airy and like, positive and red feels a little bit heavier and I don’t want to say bad but like negative. Makenzie: No. Right. Annie: So to breathe in the good stuff and exhale. Makenzie: Exhale yeah. I see that red stuff as like “I’m a dragon, like, power!” Annie: Oh I kind of like that too. But and I love that you say, like, 2 minutes, start there. Lauren: I was going to say is there a reason behind, like, the order and the time frames because I have recently gotten into meditation and I’m trying to be consistent and I’m not super consistent right now but I’m working on it and I know that I always try to do at least 10 minutes and I don’t know why, I just think I should do at least 10 minutes for some reason. Makenzie: I think that I’m sure there’s probably, like, research out there that shows like optimal whatever but I think there’s, like, certain people like Sting, I think he meditates for like 8 hours a day or something. Just like I don’t know what else he does. But I think, for me, there’s no way I could do 10 minutes. Which maybe says something about the where my brain is at focus-wise. So I don’t, I don’t really know how to answer that, I’m sure there is something out there, maybe I can do a little poking around. Lauren: I’ll look into it. Makenzie: But the idea is, you know, we come from such a society or culture where multitasking was like champions for so long. And I feel like it was, like, I always say that it was such a nineties thing that you’d write on your resume or likely early 2000 you know the “ability to multitask” whereas now you would write like “can stay focused on one thing.” Annie:  Well and I think just in mommy culture that high productivity and multitasking is still very much, like, you know, I can cook dinner, I can have a baby on my hip, I can be listening to a podcast and texting with a girlfriend and change a diaper all at one time, you know, like, and that is just the reality of our lives but being able to really turn inward and focus on what your thoughts are, what your breath is and just having that moment where you’re just doing like just one thing. Makenzie: Just one thing, yeah. Annie: Just one thing can be really good too. Awesome. OK. So is there just one thing left on the morning routine? I feel like all this is like way more doable than I imagined. Makenzie: Right? It’s less scary. Annie: Yeah. Makenzie: So the last thing is acts of kindness. And there are acts of kindness like everyone sort of random acts of kindness where you buy coffee for the guy behind you in Starbucks but I like to keep it super simple. And so this idea is you can either write a positive text message or just someone a quick email thanking them or saying how proud you are of them for XYZ which I really like and this is what they kind of talk about in that TED talk. But what I found is if you do this for longer than 21 days and I have a pretty good circle, I have a pretty decent network, but when you run out of people that you feel comfortable being like “Hey, I really appreciate you and whatever”, just that quick little message. So I like to flip that into conscious acts of kindness, not random acts of kindness, it can be but it’s also just being aware that you’re doing something kind so if you’re holding the door open for someone you could think about it as “Yeah, whatever, like I know I learned my manners” or you could consciously think of that as an act of kindness. Annie: I love this. Of course, when you said buying people coffee in Starbucks I swear I’m always the person that gets their coffee paid for and then feels obligated to pay for the coffee behind and they’ve always had like a $20.00 tab. But I do think, like, just a simple text message, it could be a really great place to start, again, low on the time investment piece so if you’re cramped for time in the morning and it already feels chaotic, it doesn’t take a lot of time but what’s the reason behind that? Is there, does that, I mean, selfishly what does it do for me to send a note to someone, I mean, I can imagine, it makes the other person feel warm and fuzzy but- Makenzie: Right, well, it’s kind of putting the acts of gratitude and the movement and or exercise we do into an exercise, so it’s combining the two things and doing something that someone would be grateful for, so it’s again, creating action out of some of the other things that we tackled in the first four steps of the routine. Annie: And so I think, Lauren, maybe you started to ask about this. Is there a reason behind the order of this or can you mix and match? Makenzie: You know what? I’m fully for mix and matching. Annie: OK. Makenzie: I think that the first one, the three things that you’re grateful for, that has had the most research behind it to show an improved mood so if that’s what you’re going for, then, which I think everybody, if you asked them, like, “Would you want to be happier?” They would say, “Yeah. Of course.” Who would turn that down? So I don’t think the order necessarily matters and some people really notice that the movement for 15 minutes makes their day better so they end up just doing that. Some people know that the meditation is what they need and so they just focus on that, so like best case scenario, we can do all five of these things. I don’t do all five of these things. I try to. I try to get as many in as I can. Annie: When I was, back to Tim Ferriss, when I was reading his little article about it, he, I think he had a really great perspective, he had, I think, five or six elements to his morning routine as well and he said “I’m shooting for 2, 3, maybe 4 and if I can do some of this most of the days, I know that I am starting the day off on a good note and if I don’t get all five it’s not failure, it’s just, like, I didn’t, you know, like it’s kind of just like a point, like I’m just trying to check off a couple, you know? Makenzie: Yeah, I love that. Annie: Yeah, which takes the pressure off, like, again, going back to that all or nothing mindset like I can’t do the whole checklist then I’m not going to do any of it, like what do you have time for? Makenzie: Right, what do you have time for and what did you find to work for you? So say you could do all five for a week but then you’re like, “You know what? I really like the acts of kindness and the exercise.” Annie: Yes, so when you started this, Makenzie, did you do it all all at once or did you start with just one thing? Makenzie: I went gangbusters and I did all five for 60 days. Annie: What was your experience after 60 days? Makenzie: That I realized how many barriers came up for me, so thinking of 3 things to be grateful for 60 days, I was like “Ugh. Am I ungrateful because I can’t think of something new?” you know and then you can spiral into this mindset that I could easily make excuses so it wouldn’t always be first thing in the morning. But I would still be proud of myself that I got it done and so what I did was I had just a square that had 60 boxes and Seinfeld did this, so he called it the chain or the link something like that and he would X off on a calendar, I think it’s the chain, how he would write every day and his goal was to never break that chain, right? And so I feel like for building a habit that you really want to create having something visual like that where it almost feels like you’re getting a gold star is, it’s helpful but since then, I don’t do all of them every day. Annie: Yeah, it was just kind of you were running a test on yourself. Yeah, we have something similar in our  Balance365 program, we have habit trackers because that visual representation, like just marking it off- Lauren: Just checking it off- Annie: Can be really, really rewarding, like “I did the thing!” Makenzie: I did the thing. Annie: I did the thing that I said I was going to do and I’m going to check it off and that checking it off feels so dang good. Makenzie: It does and like, lists, like, to do lists are real. You get endorphins. It’s the same. Your brain spikes when you’re able to check things off. Annie: Yes, here’s mine, and I like to make little boxes, Makenzie, you’re on here and I love to check off the, like, gosh, that, there’s nothing feels better than checking off those boxes or crossing that list off, like sometimes I put things on there that I’ve already done just so I can cross them off. Makenzie: Totally, I posted about this on Instagram the other day. Annie: Did you? Makenzie: I called it the Ta-da List. Annie: Yes I saw that. Oh my gosh. I love that we need to reshare that because I remember reading that, now that you said that, and it was you said “Write all the things that you have done and now it’s called the ta-da list” and I was like “Ta da! I did this!” Makenzie: And you feel so accomplished. Annie: Oh yes and that feels good and really, speaking about, in the context of routines, doing something just really small and starting your day off, like, “Look, I said I was going to do this thing and I already did this thing” and it can just snowball, like “OK, look, I already did this one thing, I can do this other thing” and I think, like, for me that’s making my bed, that’s just part of my morning routine, like it, I cannot go in and out of my room without that like distraction, like, it’s just like a visual distraction to me so if I just make my bed and it’s like, “OK, see, look like everything just”- Makenzie: Can’t crawl in now. Annie: Yeah, I mean I can lay on top of it. Pull the covers over it. Yeah but I think again, just to echo, you have some really great elements in your morning routine, just to recap really quickly one more time. You start off with gratitude, making a list of things that you’re thankful for, being as specific as possible. Spend a few minutes journaling, reliving a positive experience throughout your day. Exercise 10 to 15 minutes, just move your body in a way that feels good to you, then start, do some meditation, focusing on your breath, your thoughts without judgment, even as little as two minutes is good enough and then acts of kindness, was there a number? Did you prescribe a number or was it just? Makenzie: For acts of kindness? Annie: Yeah. Makenzie: I mean, I think that can be like a two-minute thing. Yeah. Annie: Cool. Makenzie: So it’s basically the 15 minutes of movement is the bigger one and the rest are like two to five minutes.   Annie: And so you said, in total, this takes you about 23 minutes. Makenzie: 23 minutes. Annie: To be exact. Start to finish. Makenzie: Yes. Annie: And again, if you’re a woman in a position where you already feel like your routine or your mornings are just chaotic, don’t feel like you have to add all this in at once, you can, like Makenzie did, or you can incorporate your family in on it, maybe your family discusses acts of kindness or maybe you do the, you know, I’m just spitballing here, maybe you do the journaling, you’re reliving the positive experience as a family or as, you know, like- Makenzie: I mean, get ideas from each other, like make it a group thing. Annie: Yeah. Yeah. And so you, but you know, the other elements, really, as you said they’re small time investments but research has shown that they can have the power to rewire your brain to a more positive state of mind and as you said at the beginning, when you’re in a more positive state of mind, you can fire on all cylinders a lot more efficiently, like you can, you’re just, you’re more better at problem solving, you’re, I can’t even remember all the things that you listed and then that Professor listed as well in that TED talk, which again, we’ll link but- Makenzie: It’s wild and that’s why I do really recommend, like, that I get my clients all do this routine. And they, you know, it’s like part of their first piece of homework is to implement this routine because I do believe it works because one, I’ve tried it but also because the research shows that it works so there’s a lot of information out there right and so that’s kind of how I operate in just because of my background, I think, in psych but how I seek to put the best information in front of my clients or out there is just to see what has been proven to work. Annie:  Yeah and you know what else comes to mind, Lauren, is when we were in San Francisco a mentor of ours gave us the 5-minute Journal. Do you remember that? And I think it kind of combined the gratitude, I started off. Yes, there it is, you have it and that combines a couple of the elements in there for you and it just kind of lays it out and it has AM and PM, right. Lauren: Yep. Annie: It’s clearly been a while since I did, I did start it but- Lauren: Same. Annie: You know, what I’m really honestly really excited about is I’ve already decided I’ve already I’m committed to not picking up my phone, not turning on my phone until the kids or I get my kids dropped off at school because I know, I can feel it overwhelming me in the morning. Lauren: Oh, that’s good. I might join you in that, so I’ve been wanting to put my phone on airplane mode when I sleep and then leave it like that and then I’m always worried like, what if something happens and people can’t reach me so I have to like deal with that- Makenzie: That anxiety, yeah. And that anxiety’s real. Like, I before I lived here I lived on the Island, Vancouver Island, and where I lived I got American cell reception so I didn’t get cell reception unless my roaming was on and my power went out so I had no Internet and I had no cell reception and I was just like “Huh.” You know, it was like such a weird experience to be like fully unplugged and like, kind of forced into it. I was like a 30 minute drive to the nearest town. And so it was a really cool, like almost forced experiment to like sit with how that made me feel and then realize, “I’m very anxious and do I want to feel like I’m attached to my phone?” and that was the catalyst for me. Lauren: I think the new iPhone update that I just got has like a, why are you shaking your head? Annie: Because I know what you’re going to say and I don’t like it. Lauren: You don’t like it? Annie: No, but go ahead. It’s why I haven’t updated my- Lauren: it has like a screen time thing but what it does is you can set screen-free hours so like you can set the hours where like all your apps won’t work and the only thing that works is like text messaging and phone calls and I think I might try that. Annie: I just really like- Lauren: You can override it, though. Annie: OK, that’s what I would do all the time. Lauren: Yeah, I know. I’ve done that. Annie: All the time. I really do like the idea, though, of just, I think that’s a super simple change that I could make tomorrow. Is starting my day off in a more like proactive positive mindset, instead of being so reactive and I don’t remember where I was reading this but they were just speaking about how, you know, a lot of times we have this like urgency or anxiety about responding to emails right away or whatever and oftentimes it’s like a reaction to other people’s procrastination, it’s like, you know, they decided not to email until this time and now you feel obligated and it just sets off this whole like a domino effect where you feel like you’re just, like, “I’ve got to do all this right now” versus “OK, I’m just, like, I’m cool, I know I’ve got my stuff together and I’m just going to open my phone up when I’m ready to process all of it” versus process it and then like “Oh now, I’m going to start my day with you know” Lauren: Just make sure you respond to my Slack messages, OK? I’m kidding. Annie: You’ll probably just text me or call me if I don’t respond. That’s me, I joke that I’m Team No Chill so if I don’t get a response right away, you can rest assured that I will be trying to connect with you via Instagram D.M., Facebook Messenger, text message, phone call, FaceTime. Anyways, OK, Makenzie, this was so wonderful. I, you know, I think when we think of morning routines, we do think of things like “OK, we’re going to get dressed, we’re going to brush our teeth, we’re going to make our bed, we’re going to pack our lunch,” you know, that sort of stuff and this was on a much deeper level than that. Makenzie: I’m all about that. Let’s go deep! Lauren: I really appreciate that it was quick too, like, I think of morning routines, I think of, like, you need to journal 10 pages and that just like a hard pass for me but this seems doable, for sure. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Even if I can’t do it all all the time because I do have a 4-year-old and a one-year-old and- Makenzie: Right. Lauren: They don’t always sleep until even six. Makenzie: And I’m fully aware that like, Moms, you need your sleep, so I’m not in any way suggesting that but if you can incorporate the kids or you know, when they’re dropped off at the school then you dive into this stuff, I think it’ll, you know, I got shivers when you were talking about like maybe incorporating the kids to do that because just imagine how they’re going to walk through the world now, being grateful for things in the morning and if you start them doing that at like age 7, just imagine what they’ll grow up to be like, you know? Annie: Yeah, Lauren: Yeah. Annie: I love it and so, you know, the big takeaway is make it work for you, like these were all really good ideas and suggestions and again, make it work for you and if you want to continue the discussion on morning routines and you aren’t already a part of our free Facebook group of Healthy Habits Happy Moms please do that because I think our community is, I know our community is going to have some really great additional ideas on elements to include or how they’ve made this their own or how they made it work for them so thank you so much. This was so much fun. I enjoyed it, we will have to have you back again soon but maybe we can discuss like murder mysteries. I feel like that would really go well with Balance365 Life Radio slash Murder Mysteries. Lauren: Yes. It’s an obvious pairing. Annie: Clearly. No brainer. OK, thank you, Makenzie, we’ll talk to you later.   The post Episode 48: Getting In The Habit Of A Morning Routine appeared first on Balance365.

When the New Year rolls around, people start making resolutions to change their lives. More often than not these ventures end in failure, but it doesn’t have to be that way. It’s not a lack of willpower, motivation or hard work. It’s just the way we make resolutions isn’t always consistent with the science of behavior change. Jen, Annie and Lauren explore the three ways you can make better resolutions this year, or even decide whether you need to make resolutions at all. Resolve to join us and learn more! What you’ll hear in this episode: The best time of year to buy used exercise equipment New Year’s resolutions and FOMO The Power of Suggestion, product placement and targeted ads Jumping on the bandwagon and following the leader The perfect storm of post-holiday shame Shame-based marketing as motivation for change Ending the binge-restrict cycle Learning to let the pendulum settle Zooming out to give context to holiday eating What happens when you try to change too many things at once Outcome-based goals vs habit-based goals How to turn an outcome-based goal into a habit-based goal Resources: Five Stages Of Behavior Change Episode 15: Habits 101 – Hack Your Habits, Change Your Life Episode 22: The Oreo Cookie Approach To Breaking A Bad Habit Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: The New Year is upon us and with that comes optimistic feelings of a fresh start, a clean slate and a chance to reach our goals. Love them or hate them, it’s estimated that almost half of Americans make resolutions every year. Step into any gym the 1st week of January and it’s clear that fitness and weight loss goals are topics for most resolution makers. Resolutions are a dime a dozen. It’s sticking to them that can be difficult. Sadly, the reality is that most of us who vow to make changes in 2019 will drop them before January is even over. On this episode of Balance365 Life Radio Jen, Lauren and I dive into common reasons why New Year’s resolutions fall flat and changes you can make to help ensure you stick with your goals long after the New Year’s excitement fades. Enjoy! Lauren and Jen, welcome back! We are discussing New Year’s resolutions already, can you believe it? Lauren: No. Jen: I can’t believe how quickly this year has gone. Annie: No, I feel like I blinked and it was like the end of the year. Jen: I feel like I just saw you guys in San Francisco in February. Annie: I know, it was like a year ago. Jen: I know. Annie: That’s what happens when you see each other every day and talk to each other every day, all day. Besties. So we are talking about New Year’s resolutions because, I mean, it’s obviously a timely subject, we’re coming up on the end of the year and people are thinking about what they want to accomplish in the New Year, right? Which is ironic because we used to have a challenge, we did a challenge a couple years ago called the Screw Your Resolutions challenge and it was our alternative, our Balance 365 alternative to resolutions because so many of us have made resolutions and failed, right? Have you done that? Jen: Most people. Lauren: Yeah. Jen: In fact. Lauren: No, I’ve never done it. Jen: In fact, I keep my eye out for workout equipment around March and April because it all goes back for sale, you can get really good deals on treadmills around that time. Annie: Yes and workout clothes as well too, like they’ll go on, I mean, they’re not on sale right now necessarily but because it’s a popular time to be buying them. Jen: Yeah. Oh I mean second hand- Annie: Oh, OK. Jen: March, April, yeah people, they buy, they get the deals in December-January, they spend $2000.00 on a treadmill and then by March-April it’s back up for sale for like $400.00 So keep your eye out- Annie: Because that treadmill trend- Jen: on buy and sell websites. Yeah because you just hang laundry on it, really. This is what you do. I mean, I’ve been there as well. But I sold my treadmill when we moved last time and I really regret it because now I’m looking at getting another one. And but I’m going to wait I’m going to wait for the New Year’s resolution dropouts to put theirs up for sale- Annie: Yeah, she’s going to take advantage of you guys, listen. Jen: March-April. Annie: She’s going to prey on you. Lauren, what about you? Have you made a resolution and failed to keep it? Lauren: Yes, pretty much every year besides the last five. Yeah, it was always obviously diet exercise related too. But then I would add, like, other things so I would want to do all the things. Annie: Yep. Which we’ll talk about. Please don’t jump ahead of my outline. Lauren: I’m sorry. Annie: We’ve talked about this. Jen: I made a New Year’s resolution-ish. It was a couple years ago it was really big to choose a word, like choose a word for 2016 or 2017 whenever it was and I jumped on board that train and it was a success but we will talk about that later. I won’t skip us ahead. Annie: What was your word? Jen: It was respond. Annie: Oh, OK. Jen: Rather than react because I found myself, I was, like, you know, I could be quite reactive. Annie: No. Jen: So I really worked on that secondary, that response, when your inner B. F. F. comes in and it’s like “Whoa, chill out, girl.” Annie: Yeah, I dig that. Jen: What about this? Annie: Yeah. Jen: So then I would find, you know, I think it was 2016, I worked really hard on it and I’m much better at keeping my reactions under control and responding. Annie: Well, I’ll be interested, maybe a little bit later you can tell us about why that was so successful versus other attempts. But before we get any further, really, today we just want to discuss, I have 3 main reasons that we see resolutions kind of fall flat and I want to be clear that we are not anti resolutions, we’re not anti goals, we’re not anti action plans or whatever you want to tackle, resets, restarts, refreshes in the New Year because I’m totally one of those people that gets super excited about the idea of like a clean slate, like, that’s really, like, I love, like, a fresh start, going to start over. I get to do this. I’m going to do it right. It’s super exciting and super motivating but just the way in which people approach them and their expectations around resolutions are usually why they aren’t successful with them. Jen: Yeah we are pro, we want you to be successful. Annie: Yeah so we’re going to discuss 3 ways you can make your resolutions a little bit more successful because again, it’s not that there’s anything wrong with resolutions inherently, It’s more how we approach them and our expectations surrounding them. So let’s just dive right into it. The 1st one is that remember that you can set goals, create new habits, set intentions any time of the year, right? Like this is not something specific just to New Year’s Day or New Year’s Eve, you can do this February 1st, just the same as you can March 1st or May 15th, like whatever time you want to set new goals, you can make new goals and as I noted, I totally understand the excitement that comes when everyone else around you is doing the thing, right, and it’s contagious and I have severe FOMO, you know, fear of missing out so I feel this pressure like “Oh I want to do that, like, that’s really exciting, right?” Jen: Well, it can be like when you go shopping with your girlfriend and you only need one thing, like you need a pair of jeans and then you get in the store and your friends are like “I’m getting jeans. Oh, I also need earrings and look at this top, it’s so cute, and this coat” and then all of a sudden you’re like “Yeah, those things are so great. I should look at them too and I should get them too” and then all of a sudden you’re leaving the store with like 6 bags and you only want one pair of jeans, right? So during New Years, it’s just that you’re just surrounded by people changing all the things and you’re like “Well that is such a good idea, I need to address that in my life too. Oh and that would be great too and that too” and then all of a sudden you’ve got 10 New Year’s resolutions. Annie: And the power of suggestion, sorry, Lauren, go ahead. Lauren: I was going to say, well, even more than that for me is I would feel like I had to make a New Year’s resolution period, like even if I was not in a particular space in my life where I could handle a new goal or setting a New Year’s resolution, like, I had my daughter 5 years ago on December 1st and so it was like “Oh, I should make a New Year’s resolution” while I had an infant, you know, right, probably not the best time. Annie: Yes and I was just going to add to the power of suggestion is really, really strong around this year because Jen you’ve shared advertising budget numbers from the diet and the fitness industry, they spend a large percentage of their marketing budget this time of year. They are pushing, pushing, pushing- Jen: Yeah, the first few months of the year, the 1st quarter. I can’t remember what the numbers are, I’ve shared them on a past podcast but it’s like 65 percent of their marketing budget is spent in the 1st couple months of the year. Because yeah, so it’s everywhere. Annie: So you’re really, really, you’re likely seeing it in magazines and commercials and newspapers, in bookstores and anywhere you’re going, essentially, to buy this product, buy this program, purchase this service, purchase this membership- Jen: Yeah, people have no idea, like, how much thought goes into marketing and so even, you’ll see, I noticed in my local bookstore that throughout the year when you walk in there’s different tables set up featuring, you know, new books or this all these books on this topic. Well, in December or January the diet table comes to the very front of the store so when you walk in it’s right there. Because they know, they know that that’s the time to be selling these books, to put them right in front of you, get you thinking about it, it makes you buy them. We like to think we’re so in control of our choices but we really are not. Annie: I was just going to say that because I know, Annie 10 years ago would have walked into Barnes and Noble or whatever this bookstore, saw the diet book and “it’s like they knew what I wanted,” like, yeah, how did I, like, you know, how did they know but really? Jen: If you don’t even think about the change, it’s like, this must have always been here. Annie: Right, it’s like, like, you know, it’s like, it’s, now we have Amazon ads popping up on our feed, you know, like Lauren, you just talked about how you were, posted about your standing desk. Lauren: Oh my gosh, yes, I got this standing desk which is amazing, I got it from Costco, I don’t know if it’ll still be here when this airs but I got it from Costco and I posted about it on my story and I had never seen an ad for a standing desk before and after I posted it on my story I was started seeing Instagram ads for this other standing desk and it freaked me out. Jen: Oh. There’s so many conspiracy theories around what Facebook and Instagram listen to and of course they deny, deny, deny but that happens to me all the time. Sometimes I feel like I’m talking to a friend about something, like, in person- Lauren: Yes. Jen: Then I’ll start seeing those ads on my feed. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: There’s a meme that it’s like, of course, if I had a dollar for every time I started a sentence with “There’s a meme” on Instagram that says “Oh, oh, that’s weird how this showed up on my feed when I didn’t talk to anyone about it, I didn’t type it, I didn’t search it, like, it’s, like, there in your brains, you know- Jen: You thought it. Annie: Yes, but anyways, it is, you know, it’s kind of like when you go to Target and your kids don’t want goldfish until they see the goldfish and then you know and it’s like “Now I can’t live without the goldfish.” Jen: And you have to and there’s also food, food companies have to pay more to get their products on the shelf at eye level. Lauren: Yes. Jen: Do you know I mean because they know it leads to you choosing it more so they make a deal with, you know, whatever supermarket chain and they pay a fee to have their product at eye level, like, you really, if you know what I mean, like, it’s just there’s so much of this that goes on that consumers aren’t aware of. Annie: Right, which we kind of went off on a tangent there and I think that would make a really great podcast about how the the science and psychology behind marketing and how it works the way it does, especially when it comes to health and wellness but the point here is that you can set these goals any time of year, so even though the bookstores are pushing it or you might feel like you’re seeing these messages to get these really brand new fresh goals around your health and your wellness. It seems like it’s everywhere. Remember that you can set these 6 months from now, 3 months from now, any time a year. You don’t have to feel pressure to do it on New Year’s Day. Jen: Yes and now that we have told everybody about it, you will start noticing it and you can be more critical about it and this is called media literacy and media literacy has been found to be one of the greatest tools in preventing disordered eating and body image issues. So pass it on. Annie: Pass it on. Stay woke, right? Jen: Stay woke. Annie: OK. Number two, remember your why. Ask yourself “Does this really matter to you?” when you’re setting your New Year’s resolutions because along the same lines of getting caught up, this can tend to be following the leader, kind of like Jen said when you’re shopping with your girlfriend and in my experience, what’s personally happened to me before is one girlfriend dinner is like “Oh yeah, I’m going to join this gym, I’m going to start this program, I’m going to start this diet” and the rest of us are like “Oh yeah, like, I guess that sounds good,” like, “That sounds good to me, I’ll do that too” or like “Guess I hadn’t really given it that much thought but she’s done the research. And she seems to think it’s a good idea so I’ll do it too” and if you listen to our Stages of Change podcast with our Balance365 Coach Melissa Parker, you’ll know that skipping stages like contemplation, where you’re thinking about doing a thing and preparation, where you’re making plans to do the thing, are actually really vital to your success and this is one of the reasons people- Jen: Not skipping stages. Annie: Sorry, yes, not skipping stages. It’s really vital to your success and this is one of the reasons that people can fall flat on New Year’s resolution time is because they join the gym, they buy the meal plan, they sign up for the challenge or whatever it is they’re doing without really considering “Does this even matter to me? Is this a good time in my life to do this? Is this reasonable to think that I can do whatever is required to make this goal happen?” Just like Lauren said, like, she just felt this pressure to make a resolution and it’s like “Hey, I just had a baby. Maybe now isn’t the time to be all in on whatever it is I’m wanting to do” and if you give it some reflection and you come up with like “No, this isn’t OK. This isn’t the time, this isn’t the thing I want. That’s OK. It doesn’t mean that you’re stuck wherever, you’re out forever. It just means that maybe you need to re-evaluate and get some clarity on what your goal is and how you’re going to get there. Jen: Yeah, it often is related to, I think, feelings of guilt around holiday eating as well so, I mean, that’s why the advertising is so successful, right, because they know you’re feeling bad about all the eating and sitting around you’re doing over the holidays and that becomes your motivation, right, which is shame-based motivation, which we also know through research that shame-based motivation is not lasting. Lauren: Yeah, and I’ll add too on this that this is why we actually added a section in Balance365 it’s called The Story of You and it helps you to uncover what your values are and what your core values are and so not only does that help you when you are making changes because when you make a change if it connects with one of your core values you’re more likely to stick to it but it also can weed out this extra stuff so you can think back “Well does this really support any of my core values?” and if it doesn’t you can feel a lot better of saying like “Oh, this isn’t for me, like, it’s good for them, it’s not good for me.” Jen: Right. Annie: And circling back to what Jen said about shame-based marketing, you know, I think in the past when I have started a new diet or a new exercise routine on New Year’s Day it has usually been to combat those feelings of shame and guilt about eating too much, missing the gym because I’ve been busier than normal, the weather’s been crummy, not enough daylight, you know, whatever fill in the blank and they know this. Lauren: Yeah, that was always me, like it comes right after the holidays, right, where everyone’s crazy busy, there’s treats everywhere. And it’s just like, it’s kind of like a perfect storm, right, everyone’s doing it, you feel crappy, the advertising is being pushed to you, so it comes together on January 1st. Jen: Yeah and it’s just it’s all part of that roller coaster, though, you could start if you zoom out a bit and start identifying trends so most people wouldn’t binge over Christmas if they weren’t dieting before Christmas. Lauren: Right, yeah. Jen: And most people wouldn’t diet before Christmas if they were bingeing at Thanksgiving. Lauren: And then you wouldn’t feel crappy, right? And wouldn’t be like “I need to do something.” Jen: Right, so the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas is also a very, very popular time to go on a diet so, you know, people go into the holiday, basically, diet to counteract their Thanksgiving bingeing and to prep themselves for Christmas. Someone just said the other day, told me a friend of theirs was working on losing 5 pounds in preparation for the holidays and I’m, you know, it’s funny kind of, but you’re also like, I just cringe and think, “Oh my gosh, like, you’re basically just announcing that you have an eating disorder and that you are starving yourself in preparation for being able to binge.” Lauren: Right and that just feeds right into the cycle. Jen: Yeah and then so you binge over Christmas and then you get back on that diet rollercoaster for January and then, you know, then you restrict, then you binge and then you’re restricting for your bikini season and then it’s just, it’s just wild. Annie: And most people are trying to stop that cycle in the binge, when they’re in the binge they want to pull all the way back to restriction which I totally get, like, that seems to be, like, “Well, duh, like, I, you know, I’m either all in or I’m all out, I’m on the wagon, I’m off the wagon,” like there’s just two extremes and our approach would be to just let that pendulum settle down in the middle like, don’t pull it so far back. Jen: Yeah, so Chastity, she’s in Balance365, she said the other day is that people want to stop bingeing but unfortunately they don’t want to stop restricting. However the solution to stop bingeing is to stop restricting as well. Lauren: Right. Jen: And people just really have a hard time wrapping their heads around that. Annie: Absolutely, I mean, it can be scary because it feels like you’re letting go of some of that control, especially if you’ve been dieting for years and that’s what you know, that a lot of women feel comfortable and in control when they’re dieting, even if they’re miserable, even if they’re white knuckling it. Lauren: I remember someone when we first started doing this had been dieting for years and years and she was terrified when we told her like stop counting your points, stop counting, like, just give yourself permission to eat and she was like “I will literally start eating and never stop.” Jen: I remember that too. Lauren: And like, spoiler, that didn’t happen and now she lives a free life and she doesn’t count and she’s happy with her progress but she was terrified, like there was a real fear for her. Jen: Right. Annie: So once again we went on a little tangent. Jen: As we do. Annie: I’m just looking at our outline, like “Remember your why” and now we’re talking about restriction and it’s all connected though, isn’t it? Jen: So remember your why. So remember that you don’t want to be on the diet roller coaster and that is your why for not jumping on board a new diet in January. Annie: Well and why am I doing this again, if I am being honest and years past it would have been to try to avoid or to remove some of those feelings of guilt and shame, so it’s like “OK, I’m just going to try to regain all of my control by doing all the things and doing them perfectly” and you know, again, it just, what that does is eventually perpetuates the cycle of this diet cycle. Jen: Yeah, an alternative to feeling guilty is to say “Wait a sec, I’m human and just like everybody else at Christmas, I indulge in the holiday foods and move along.” Annie: Yeah. Because the holiday foods are yummy. Jen: They are. Annie: They are yummy. And yeah and just cut yourself some slack, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: OK, so we covered the first two. A, you don’t have to make these New Year’s resolutions just this time of year, you can set goals or new intentions or create new habits any time of year, then you evaluate like “Does this really matter to me? Why am I doing this? What’s my purpose? What’s my mission behind this? What am I hoping to get out of this?” and then if you come to the conclusion that “I still want to move forward. I still want to make change” and your resolutions are around things like eating healthier, exercising more, drinking less, quitting smoking then we’re talking about changing habits which, shockingly, is something we’re pretty good at helping people do. Surprise! And Lauren you have some really good information about creating and changing habits, but essentially it boils down to you don’t have to overhaul your entire life overnight because so often people go to bed on New Year’s Eve and they’re like, they set these plans and they’re going to wake up like a person with completely new habits on January 1st, like 12 hours later, new year, new me, right? Lauren: Right. That would be really nice. Annie: It would be great if it were just that simple, if all the change could happen. Jen: If worked, we would encourage it. Lauren: Yeah, right. Annie: Yeah, it’d be a heck of a lot quicker but will you share the statistics about why changing too many things at once isn’t likely to bode well for you? Lauren: Yes, so we share this all the time, actually but I find that it’s so eye-opening for people is that studies show that if you want to change a habit and you change one small thing and only that thing you have about an 80 percent chance of sticking with that change long term, which is actually really good for percentages. If you try and change too things at the same time your success rate of sticking with both of those things drops down to about 30 percent and then 3 or more changes at the same time your success rate drops to almost 0 sticking with all those changes and then the more things you add on, the less and less your success rate will be. Annie: That’s not very promising to change a lot of things at once is it. Lauren: No, so not only do you not have to, you shouldn’t if you care about sticking with it, right? Annie: Yes, so when you think about someone that wakes up New Year’s Day and is like I’m going to change all 3 of my meals, plus my snacks, plus my sleep habits, plus my water and alcohol consumption, now I’m also going to add going into the gym 5-6 times a week, that is so many behaviors that it takes to change, I mean we’re talking about, like, let’s take a look at a meal, like, what does it take to change a meal, like, it could change what you put on your plate, how you prepare your food, what kind of foods you’re buying at the grocery store, it might require, do you even go to the grocery store in the first place versus eating out, I mean, and those are the little steps that take to build a really great solid habit that so many people overlook. They just think “I’m just going to start eating a balanced breakfast, lunch and dinner tomorrow, all the time, forever and ever amen.” Lauren: And our brains just don’t work like that. It’s just the way we’re wired and you know, we, like our brains, like consistency and constants and so it’s not going to bode well for you if you try and change everything all at the same time. Jen: I don’t even like going somewhere new in the grocery store, like a new aisle. Like when I when I’m looking at recipes and there’s just some whacko ingredient, you know, that either you can’t find in a regular supermarket or I’ve just never seen that before I’m like, “Next!” Like, I just really resist. Yeah. Annie: I think, yeah, I mean, obviously when it comes to cooking I’m the same way. I see it is a recipe with more than like four ingredients and I’m like “No, I’m out.” Lauren: Thank you, next. Jen: Yeah, I know as far as our plans on expanding our our recipe collection on our website and just looking at, like, when we had a woman making recipes for us this fall and the first couple she sent me I was like, “Listen, like chickpea flour is just not going to fly.” Lauren: I feel like we should have a test where like if Annie, Lauren and Jen can’t make it it doesn’t get put out there and we would be like, “Pizza. Quesadillas. Chicken.” Jen: Yeah yeah and so it’s like, I remember I would go all in like back in my dieting days on making things like cauliflower pizza crust. Lauren: Yes I would take so long to make meals and they would always taste like crap. Jen: Yeah and so but then it’s like, you know, five years later, we’re just having pizza, like just regular crust and it’s way better. Lauren: Like, it’s fine. Jen: It’s like all those steps, right, like all those steps to make, to just get in the habit of making these healthy pizza crusts and yeah just really makes no difference. Annie: And now, yeah, I feel good just throwing some veggies and some fruit and some extra protein on my Jack’s frozen pizza. Jen: Yeah, like, I’ll just have a side of cauliflower with my regular pizza. Instead of trying to work it into the crust. Annie: I really like how you say cauliflower. Lauren: Cauliflower. Annie: Anyways, yeah, but truly I think people really underestimate how much energy is required to change just one habit and it’s definitely a slower process but what we hear from women in our community that are working through our program is that it feels effortless, they’re not white knuckling through all these changes and just like, “Oh my gosh, I hope I can do this. I just need to do this for a little bit longer before it comes automatic.” They’re like, actually, they’re kind of like looking around like “Is this really all I’m doing? Like, this is all you want me to focus on?” and we’re like “Yeah, actually.” Jen: Just this one thing. Annie: That is. Jen: Yeah. Annie: And if you’re talking about changing existing habits, which that comes up a lot around New Years resolutions too is the best way to change an existing habit is to replace it with a new one and Lauren and I have a pretty good podcast, actually two podcasts on how habits are built, like Habits 101, and then how to change or break bad habits, so if you want more information on the science and the process behind habit building and breaking bad habits, I would highly encourage you to listen to those because, I mean, I think we give some pretty good tidbits. Lauren: It’s pretty good. Annie: I mean, it’s alright. And the other thing I want to add onto that too in terms of habit changing and going a little bit slower is to discuss the difference between outcome-based goals and behavior-based goals because so often, again, resolutions seem to be outcome-based goals. I want to lose 10 pounds. I want to run a 5K. I want to compete in this challenge or whatever and it doesn’t really address the behaviors, like, OK, how are you actually going to do that? What actions are you going to take to lose 10 pounds? Like I’m not poo-pooing weight loss as a resolution goal, your body, your choice. But how are you going to lose that 10 pounds? It might be I’m going to start exercising on Monday, Wednesday, Friday for 30 minutes or I’m going to replace, you know, X, Y, Z with vegetables on my plate or I’m going to increase protein or you know, whatever that looks like, we would encourage you to write your goals based off of your behaviors, not the outcome you want, because so often if you take care of the behaviors, which we have more control over, the outcome will just naturally be a byproduct of it and so often I see women doing all the right things and they don’t get the outcome they want and then they feel like a failure, you know, they’re making all these great changes. Especially when it comes to weight loss. We’ve seen women work their butts off to try to lose weight, you know, they’re maybe exercising more, they are addressing their self talk, they’re getting more sleep, they are cutting back on sugary drinks or alcoholic drinks or whatever that is they’re working on and they step on the scale and they’re down 3 pounds instead of the desired 10 pounds and all of a sudden they feel like they’ve failed. Lauren: Right. Jen: When they’ve actually succeeded in all these areas of life that a lot of people struggle to succeed in and it’s huge, it’s a huge big deal. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah, when really if you just zoom out and it’s like “Oh my gosh, look at all this great change I’ve made, I’m feeling better I’m taking better care of my body or you know, whatever it is, fill in the blank, that we just tend to lose sight of that when our goals are outcome based. Lauren: Also when they step on the scale and they see that, that they haven’t lost as much as they had hoped, they also a lot of times will be like “Well, what’s the point, right ?” and then they don’t continue doing those behaviors and it’s the continuation and consistency of those behaviors that’s going to lead to possibly them reaching their goal, right? Annie: Yeah, so the easiest way to turn your outcome based goal, if that’s what you were thinking about before listening to podcast, into a behavior based goal is to just ask yourself “How am I going to achieve that? How am I going to run a 5K? How am I going to run a marathon? How am I going to lose 10 pounds? How am I gonna?” Jen: Yeah. Annie: You know, like and then usually that how, that’s the behavior. Jen: Yeah and then realize that that outcome goal you have actually could be made up of a series of behavior changes that need to happen one at a time, therefore it may not happen as quickly as you like, which is OK. Life is long. Annie: Yeah, it’s the tortoise and the hare, right? Jen: It’s a journey. Annie: Yeah, as cheesy as that sounds, people are probably like, “Oh, come on.” Jen: It’s a journey. Lauren: Zen Jen over there. Jen: I know. Annie: Enjoy the process. Jen: Gandhi. Annie: We need one of those successory memes. You know, popular in the nineties. OK, well those are the three main points I wanted to discuss when it comes to New Year’s resolutions. Is there anything you two would like to add? Lauren: I don’t think so. Annie: OK, let’s do a quick review. First of all, before you set your New Year’s resolutions remember that you can set these new goals, create new habits, set new intentions, you can have a clean slate any time of the year. I totally understand that it’s super enticing to have like new year, new me but you can do this on May 1st just as easily as you can January 1st. The second one is to remember your, why does this really matter to you? Are you just doing this because your girlfriends are doing this or because marketing is telling you to do this or is this something that you really desire and then on top of that are you willing to do what it takes to make that happen and sometimes the answer is no, like Lauren said, you know, she really maybe wanted some of the things she wanted after having Elliott but it just wasn’t, the timing wasn’t good and honoring that, and being like, “Hey, I can just put that on the back burner and wait a little bit to start that until I’m ready to make those changes and I’m able to make those changes and stick with them” is absolutely, that’s an OK answer. Jen: I know you always say, Annie, there is more than two options, it’s not always “yes” and “no”, there’s a third option which is “later.” Annie: I would love to take credit for that but that’s actually Lauren. Jen: Oh, I’m sorry, Lauren. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Yes. I was like, as soon as you said that I was like “Oh, I really wanted credit for it because it’s good, it’s good advice, but I’m going to be honest, that’s Lauren’s advice.” Yes, later is always an option which I think is, that’s goes back to your maturity about responding, Jen, versus reacting, you know, so many people can get reactive during New Year’s resolutions like they feel compelled to do something just because everyone else is doing them and it’s like, if you just have pause, like think like “Do I want this? Was I considering this before I heard Susan over here talking about her weight loss? Like. Jen: I always think of my inner BFF like she’s, she just like, she comes to me in that first second I react and then give it 20 seconds and my inner B.F.F. is sitting beside me like “Hey, girlfriend. Calm down.” Annie: That first voice in me though, she can be really kind of grumpy sometimes. Jen: She’s my naughty friend. She’s naughty. Annie: Let’s do it! Yeah! Is this is code for Annie and Lauren? Jen: There’s Annie and then there’s Lauren. Annie: Annie is like shoving you into the mosh pit at a concert, like “You can do it!” and Lauren’s like, “I don’t think that’s a good idea.” Jen: Let’s stay safe back here. Annie: Both are needed sometimes, OK? And the last point we just discussed today was that you don’t have to overhaul your life in one night, that to think that you’re going to go to bed on December 31st and wake up 8 hours later a completely different person doesn’t usually happen for people and that’s not, that’s not because you lack willpower or motivation or determination or discipline, that’s just the way behavior change works and it takes time and slowing down the process to focus one thing until that becomes automatic and then layering on brick by brick is usually the best place to start and we have a saying too that we stole from James Clear that “Rome wasn’t built in a day but they were laying bricks often” Lauren: We changed it to make it our own. What’s our new one? Beyonce wasn’t built in a day. Jen: Beyonce wasn’t built in a day. Annie: Beyonce also wasn’t built in a day. So if you could just lay a brick, you know, if you have these big goals 2019, 2020, 2021, start with a brick, really and lay your strong foundations, good solid habits, one by one and you’ll get there eventually and hopefully you’ll wake up one day and you’ll have this big beautiful Coliseum and you’ll be like “Oh, that was easy.” Jen: Exactly. Exactly. That really is how it happens. Annie: Yeah and I know that’s probably sounds a little bit ridiculous or a little bit too good to be true but you need to be able to play the long game for behavior change, you have to have big picture and patience which, I’m saying that to myself right now. I’m talking in a mirror. And yeah, hopefully this helps people build some better resolutions. I would love to hear what people are working on. So if you are working on something for the new year and you want to talk about it, please join our Facebook group, it’s, we’re Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. We have 40,000 women in our private Facebook group and if you need a place for safe support, reasonable advice and moderation, this is your place to go. Jen: I got a huge compliment yesterday. I was at a cookie exchange with 10 women and not many people know about my our company locally where I live and actually a couple women from my community just joined and the one woman said to me yesterday “Your group is the first place I’ve ever found that actually promotes you giving yourself grace.” Lauren: Aww. Annie: Can we like get a testimonial from her? Jen: I’ll ask her. She’s in Balance365 now. Annie: Oh that’s wonderful. Jen: She would be happy to. Anne: Yeah, I think it’s a pretty sweet place. We have amazing women, it’s really, it’s not it’s not us, it’s our community that’s made it such an amazing place to be, they provide support, applause and encouragement and tough love sometimes when it’s needed. It’s a great place to be, so find us on Facebook at Healthy Habits Happy moms You can also tag us on social media on Instagram and show us what you’re working on, show us your more reasonable New Year’s resolutions. Jen: Yes. Lauren: Yeah, I like that. Annie: Yeah, me too. OK, anything to add? Jen: No. Lauren: No. Annie: We’re good to go? Alright, well, we’ll talk soon, OK? Lauren: Bye. Jen: Bye. The post Episode 46: 3 Ways To Improve Your New Year’s Resolutions appeared first on Balance365.

The moments we realized that workplace culture exists. Then Courtney takes part in a remote work roundtable with pals from fellow remote(ish) startups Trello and Zapier. One fun tip that emerged: Using your dog as a remote work accountability partner.    Courtney: Hi, I'm Courtney Seiter. Carolyn: I'm Carolyn Kopprasch. Courtney: And this is the Buffer CultureLab podcast. Carolyn: Where we’re slightly obsessed with creating happier, more human work. Courtney: And we're back. Welcome to episode two of Buffer CultureLab. In our first episode, we shared a little bit about why we're interested in creating this podcast, and now we're excited to start digging deeper. In each episode, we want to bring you two chapters, if you will. In the first, Carolyn and I will chat about an element of workplace culture, and in the second, I bring you interviews with folks who have unique cultures, and people who are innovating and creating in the realm of work culture. Today Carolyn and I talk about when it dawned on us that workplaces even have cultures of their own. Then I'll share a conversation I was lucky to have with folks from fellow tech startups, Trello and Zapier, about the triumphs and challenges of working remotely.   Courtney: I think it's interesting to talk about how people become aware that workplaces have a culture, and I'm curious to hear from you, Carolyn, when that realization happened for you?   Carolyn:I was very lucky to work for a company called Emma before I started at Buffer. Courtney: Shoutout to Emma. Fun people. Carolyn: Yeah, Emma is awesome. And I worked there for several years, and that was such a different vibe than my job before that. But that was the first time that I was sort of understood that-- I think that workplace culture has such an impact. Because previously I'd worked at an agency, and the people were lovely, and we'd try to do well by our clients and all normal business and human values upheld, but it was never really talked about, and it just wasn't all that explicit, and I didn't spend a lot of mental energy on it. And then I got to Emma. And [laughter] well first of all, when I applied at Emma, they had a question in the application that said, "If you were going to rip a phone book in half, what song would you like playing the background [laughter]?"   Courtney: What?   Carolyn: That's the point, I was like [chuckles], "This is a very unique place."   Courtney: What song did you say [laughter]?   Carolyn: “Who Let the Dogs Out” dance remix [laughter].   Courtney: Wait, I have a follow-up. Why [laughter]?   Carolyn: I don't know [laughter], but I've always had a special place in my heart for that song ever since-- because I'm like, "Oh, my three years at Emma", when I think about it. The history behind that is that there's a person who used to work at Emma who actually could rip the phone book in half - there was a trick to it. Anyway [chuckles].   Courtney: Wow. Carolyn: And you learn that when a whole company all brings in their phone books every year and piles them in front of this guy's desk, and the whole company rallies around and chants, and is so excited to watch somebody do this, that's a workplace culture.   Courtney: That absolutely is a very specific workplace culture.   Carolyn: Very specific [laughter]. So I think that job really taught me not only how important it is, but how different it is at different places.   Courtney: When your agency job felt like-- and you don't need to say anything bad about them, but I'm interested in what it's like to work for a company that  doesn't have any discernible culture, because I've had some experiences with that as well [chuckles].   Carolyn: I think I would probably be quoting a whole lot of startup people if I said, "If you think you don't have a culture, you do, you're just not being very intentional about it and it's probably not that great [laughter]."   Courtney: Most people, I feel like, and this is a vast generalization, the big part of the working world, people are generally like, "I'm going to do my job, I'm going to show up, I'm going to sit at my computer - whatever it is I do on the workplace floor - and then I'm going to go home. And home is where my real life is." And a lot of jobs I've had - I worked in the corporate world previously with publicly traded companies before I came to the startup world. And I've had the experience of being on a committee who was charged with putting on fun events so people would hang out. So we were sort of trying to create a culture where there really wasn't any interest in one. That's the moment I was like, "Oh, okay, workplace culture is a thing, and this place really doesn't quite have it, but would like it. And how do you create it when it doesn't really exist?" We never could figure out a solution to that problem [chuckles].   Carolyn: I think my response to that is that it's awesome to put energy into that, and to be saying, "We want to create events," and "We want people to hang out." I would say that's a really lofty view of how to change culture. And that is part of it, those parties and things like that. I think culture exists on a much more micro-level. The things people talk about at lunch, and if they eat lunch at their desk, and how people connect if it's saying, "How's your family?" Or, "I hate work [laughter]." Those little moments - that's workplace culture, I think. There's a book called The Decision Maker, that we have talked about a lot at Buffer, that I recommend. It's kind of a fable. It's a pretty easy read. The idea is they're like, "We're going to make workplace culture so we're going to install a pinball machine in the break room."   Carolyn: One of the executives ends up overhearing a conversation between two people, who are like, "Yeah, that doesn't..." It's kind of like putting lipstick on a pig a bit. What really matters to us is how we feel in our day to day jobs. Not how it feels when we're invited to spend a couple minutes a day in this fun thing. So kegs and pinball machines, and things like that I think is often used as evidence of culture, but this book is sort of suggesting that it really happens in how decisions are made, and how employees talk to each other, how teammates interact, and how one to ones are operated, and how team leads discuss things with teammates or with each other, or things like that. I think it's really awesome to focus on that, but I would say that's probably 5% of it.   Courtney: I love the phrase evidence of culture. Because when you're adding things on, like parties, pinball machines, like darts, or whatever it is. It probably came about from-- there probably were companies with great cultures where those things happened organically, like the phone book ripping [chuckles], you can't just install. It has to spring from an authentic place of people feeling comfortable with one another, people wanting to hang out, people feeling a genuine connection. Not that you have to hang out. I don't think a great workplace culture equals, "We're best friends. We want to hang out all the time." You can have a super great professional workplace culture and get the job done, and have a lot of stuff going on in your personal life, and that's fine too. I think somehow it's happened where we tend to equate games, beer at the office, as air-quotes "culture." It's like 5% of what culture really could be, maybe, if you really want to dig into it.   Carolyn: Yeah. And what was interesting for us at Buffer, was that we didn't have  the luxury of pointing at those things, or to say it another way, maybe a more cynical way, hiding behind those things, because we were distributed. We didn't have the pinball machines, and the beers, and the hanging out. We had to say, "What is our culture if we don't have those things?" So that's kind of where the shared values and the decisions about gifting Kindle books and a Kindle to everyone on the team.   Courtney:  That’s the best perk. Carolyn: Yeah, I know. It's the best perk ever. And we kind of said, We don't really have that sort of in-office fun workplace type idea or opportunity. So what does it look like if a bunch of people are still going to have conversations and get to know each other, and talk and connect, and talk about work, and talk about personal lives, both to each other and to their families and to their friends? How do we provide an environment where people feel like they want to talk about things that are exciting to them, or helping them improve or be their best selves, without sort of forcing it? Without saying, "Every Friday we get together, and we talk about what we're doing to..." It's this funny line of like leading a horse to water, like, "Here's books and here's a Jawbone, and here's all sorts of other things to try and create an environment where you feel supported, and you feel like you can be your whole self, and you feel like you can pursue your dreams, and talk about things that you're excited about.” You want to be uplifting but without having this hammer about it.   Courtney:  Yeah. You have to trust people to create that. It's like throwing a party, you can't have people get together and say, "Okay, talk about this." Carolyn: Totally, and just like the party example, it all comes down to who's there.  So if you have people in the environment, in the office or in the party or wherever it is, who are happy to be there and excited about what direction the company is going, and genuinely caring about each other, then it's a lot easier to create a great culture [chuckles]. It's kind of like cheating to start at the hiring level.    Courtney: Yeah, the best way to create culture is to hire amazing people [laughter]. Just do that and you'll be fine. Carolyn: There's this quote - I think it's Jim Rome, but I could be wrong, that says that he saw a sign that said, "We don't train our employees to be really nice people. We just hire nice people [laughter]." And he loves that, he's like, "That's so clever. That's such a smart hack." [music]   Courtney: We talk about remote work a lot at Buffer, and it seems like any company that makes this way of work an option has a lot to say about it. Recently I got to be part of a great remote work roundtable hosted by Lauren Moon, who is a Content Marketing Manager at the productivity app Trello. She asked me and Alison Groves of the tool Zapier a lot of awesome questions. Have a listen. [music]    Lauren: So I really wanted to just kind of do a round table. I have some questions to ask you guys, just kind of really kind of a casual conversation about some of your reflections on remote work and how we got here. And what maybe you wish could be different, or things like that. Pain points, too. So let's start with a quick intro. What do you do at your company? How long have you been there?    Courtney:  I am Courtney, I work at Buffer, working on the marketing side and people side. I'm a hybrid right now doing half brand marketing - like, our culture, our values, why we do what we do, the transparency side - and half inclusivity and diversity efforts. So helping us grow in a deliberate way. I have been there for two years and it was my very first remote work jobs, so I got a crash course really quickly.   Alison:  My name is Alison, and I work for a company called Zapier, and we do automation, business automation, not necessarily home automation, but anything you can think of in anything that you need to automate worlds would help you take care of that. I'm also a hybrid like Courtney, I'm both on the Platform and the Marketing Team helping us bring new apps and partners to the Zapier platform. So they come to us most of the time to put their app in our ecosystems, and I work with the Platform Team to help organize that, and then on the marketing side, we make sure that every app gets a brand new introduction into the Zapier community. So we're bringing a new app to Zapier, as of now, every single day. So it's all happening [chuckles]. Lauren: Right. And how long have you been there? Alison: Two years. Lauren: What was the transition like when you guys went full remote? Alison: When I started doing it, it was very hard for me, and I know Courtney and I kind of went through these struggles together where for the first couple months it was-- I don't know anything to do, but to work, because there's so much to do, and I'm really excited, and I want to be doing this, and there's no clear separation between what I'm doing during the day and what I'm doing at night. So I think-- Courtney, I think you and I probably spend a lot of evenings together in those early days to kind break ourselves away from trying to find that work-life balance for sure.   Courtney:  One of the things that was really helpful to me was to have a designated stop point in the day, and someone or something, who could hold me accountable to that, whether it's like my dog knows we take walks at 6:00 PM, or someone is expecting me to come over to make dinner, just something beyond myself, because I myself could not stop myself from working at certain points. Buffer especially, because we're an international team, everyone's coming on at all hours of the day. When you're signing off some people in other parts of the world are just signing on and you're like, "Oh, I want to talk to this person," or like, "We could do this together," and there's an impulse to just stay on your computer forever and ever. So I really discovered early on that I needed very strong incentives and reasons to not be on a computer and that was really helpful. Lauren: I like the idea that your dog is like, "Okay. What are we doing here [chuckles]?" Courtney: He’s a great accountability partner. Lauren: Yeah. It could be your dog. I think that's adorable. Are you still all in? Can you ever imagine going back to an office? Courtney: I can't at this point. It took me a long time to get it, because I come from a very butts-in-the-seats type of environment. I had never had that kind of  freedom to live this way, and I saw all my teammates traveling, going these exotic places and working. And I will admit, I had a slight perception, I was like, "They're probably not working as hard as I am." When I'm my desk like typing, typing, typing. And then when I started traveling I was like, "Oh, it forces you to condense your day in such like a laser focus way."  I honestly think I get more done when I'm on the move, because it makes me prioritize my day so tightly that I can't spend an hour just browsing Twitter which -- it happens [chuckles]. I've got to get this done. There's no other alternative. It was a huge,  humbling learning for me that you can so much more done and I definitely should not have judged people who travel as less hard workers, that's not true at all.    Alison: I think Courtney nailed it. When I'm at home, and I know even when we're at home together, if she and I are working it's just together. It's just, you're at home, you are still getting work done but there is no real end point. I know for a fact that, Courtney, that you and I have sat there until 7:00 o'clock at night, not even realizing together what we're doing. And then we're like "Oh, we're hungry, we should do something about that". Whereas when you're on the road, and you're on the move, you have to be very, very, very deliberate about your time, and what you're doing, and I know that I get-- this is probably sad to admit, I get way more done in a shorter time when I travel. Lauren: What do you guys think about the idea of you have this desk that maybe you don't even go to really if you're not working at your house? It's a mind association thing. You go to this desk, that means you're working. Or whatever. Or maybe you're couch sitters, I don't know. Alison:  I work everywhere in my house, except for my bed, that's the one place I don't take my work. Lauren: Good idea. Alison: When I was younger, I fell into that terrible trap of never getting out of bed, and always having my laptop with me. Now and part of that was demand of the job, like it was kind of a 24/7 job, but at the same time it was a terrible, terrible habit. I have a standing desk in my office, but sometimes I find that a little distracting, because I have a big monitor I find myself-- my brain can go really quickly to everything that's on it. So a lot of times if I need to write, I will actually just take my laptop over to the couch or somewhere else where I have a tiny screen, and I can only focus on what I'm writing. So everyone's going to have a different answer to that question. But I personally have never been one who was like, "Oh well, you know I have to have my designated work space, and my designated living space." But I do understand why people do that. Courtney:  I would like to be a person who does that, but right now I lack discipline terribly in that. I work from everywhere, including beds - a lot. I don't know, I don't even want to say it's not good, because for me it kind of actually works okay. But I do understand why you would want to create a place. Otherwise your whole house becomes slightly associated with work, and you have work feelings all over it, which is not always a good emotion to be having all over your house [laughter]. Alison: Work feelings [chuckles]. Lauren: Work feelings. You're like, "I can't go in that corner, it just reeks of work feelings.”   [music]   Lauren: I want to transition a little bit into the company dynamics behind a remote culture. Ours is different because it's only half remote, so there is this sense that there is a home base. What I want to hear is the entirely remote aspect of it. How does that affect you personally? How do you think it affects company culture? How do you guys get to know each other? Those kind of questions.   Alison: At Zapier we do physical onboarding. Any new employee-- and I think this might be impossible for Buffer, one because the people-- the sort of oldest employees are still pretty transient, I think they travel a lot. Whereas our three co-founders are in the Valley, and they're kind of homebodies, and like just stay put. So anytime someone new comes on they actually go out there for a week, and some of us will join them. I usually go every couple of months, and just hang out with new people, and then kind of spend the week just learning the ropes whatever that might be. So for developers it will be getting their production environment set up, for support people it's just throwing them into the fire, and trying to support 600 different apps, and then getting all that sort of stuff set up. And then for us on the marketing side we might spend a couple of days brainstorming, or just having good conversations face-to-face with the person.    Alison: So that on-boarding process for us, I think still works really well. I don't know if how you know when we're growing exponentially if we're going to be able to pull that off still. But I do really like that. I think it's really, really helpful, and it also allows you to get to know a couple of your teammates, like, right off the bat. So that's really good. And I'll let Courtney talk about retreats, because we kind of do the same thing, but for us it's sort of those two chunks. Like one, when you first start, you have your on-boarding time, and then that other part is you might go back out there to San Jose for someone else's onboarding. So we do sort of have those smaller experiences. And then we just like Buffer do, do two retreats a year. All face-- so, everyone together.   Courtney: For Buffer, this is a big one. So early on, our founders basically got kicked out of Silicon Valley, because they are Austrian and British, and didn't have the right visas. So that's how Buffer sort of became remote at first, because they [chuckles] were in the wrong place, so had to go somewhere. Lauren: Wow. Courtney: And so as a result they really started to enjoy this travel experience, and what they gained from going other places, and it became ingrained in Buffer's culture very early, before there even was a product almost. This was a cool way to be able to live and work. Then, as we grew-- and I mean as we grew first 5, 10, 15 people, a decision had to be made around, "Do we want this to be how it works for Buffer?" We felt pretty strongly (and this is way before me, so when I say, "We," I don't mean me personally - I mean people who came earlier) that it needed to be one or the other. We didn't want, for our personal reasons, to split the difference, and have an office with some people in it and some people floating around remotely. We really wanted there to be one solution and there's no preference either way, whichever one we chose. Courtney: So they ending up going with the remote idea, and I think it's had a huge impact in shaping our culture. Almost everything we do has to be slightly different, slightly skewed, because we're not in the same place in the world. Like how we deal with time zones. We do a lot of asynchronous work, like if you're working with someone in Cape Town, South Africa, I've got maybe a one hour or two hour overlap with my teammates there. So we can meet during that time, otherwise we're going to need to work on a Paper doc where I can add stuff, and then he can wake up and add his stuff. And work can sort of be happening all of the time that way.   Courtney: The way we communicate with one another on a day-to-day basis has changed a lot because of that. It's so hard to transmit emotion when you don't see someone physically face to face. So we try and overcome that with GIFs and emojis, basically [chuckles].  Because our hub is Slack, it's our water cooler, it's our office, it's like everything for us. So we have to take advantage of that, and create those moments to have fun, and be yourself, and bring some of who you are - your humor, your personality - into how we communicate and what we do. Because otherwise we would never know one another beyond a surface level until we went on retreat, and we do that twice a year. So you could go every six months with these people being just random faces in a box to you, unless you really take that extra effort to get to know them.   Lauren: It's interesting to hear what you guys do, and kind of compare it to what we do. We were a totally HQ company, and then someone who's originally from Hawaii wanted to go remote. He sort of  started the whole thing.   From there it just became a compelling recruiting tool to be able to attract anyone from anywhere, as opposed to just in New York. We're half remote.   My team especially is half remote, my Marketing Team. So my manager is remote. But he person I work closest to, Brian, I sit right next to, so obviously I'm closer to Brian.   Lauren:  But for us we have found-- and there was a lot of pain points in the beginning in terms of communication because we were all just figuring it out. My manager was the first remote manager. It was interesting what you said, Courtney, about face-to-face, because we realized that when there were pain points or we weren't communicating very well a lot of it had to do with trying to convey this on Slack or trying to figure it out on Slack, and eventually we learn to immediately default to a video, and that assuaged a lot of the weirdness. How often do you guys default to face-to-face conversations through video chat? And how does that help or not help? Courtney:  I would say I have three to four video chats a day, everyday. If it's a meeting or something that if there are big decisions to be made, really almost any decisions to be made, we tend to default to video, and that's how we do our one-on-ones, our coaching. It's a huge part of our day, and I don't know that it would work without it. Lauren: Right. Alison: I'm kind of opposite. I would go many, many days without having a video chat, and I think that's because we're still as small as we are, and everyone still has really sort of independent, yet super defined, spaces that they operate in. So when I do a chat, it's because we're either having our weekly marketing meeting, our weekly platform meeting. I do a one-on-one every week with Danny, who's our Marketing Team Lead, and he brings all the information together and disseminates it back out to everyone else. But other than that I think, again-- and it might be just the nature of what I do. Like, what I do is so singular and so me, and doesn't really involve anyone else, that I don't need to do that.   Alison: But I think that's pretty common across Zapier. We're still at that point where everyone has really, really defined roles, and even the-- as the teams grow they're still really independent. It will be interesting to see if that changes the more we grow, and the more our roles start to overlap each other, or we get more-- not necessarily more help, but like when we get more hands in like what that will mean, as far as communication goes.    Lauren: We also have these Friday afternoon, like we all drink beer together on the video chat. Which ends up being-- like you'd think it would be like weird but it's actually like a pretty compelling time. Like sometimes it goes on for hours, like hours and hour, which is hilarious. Courtney: I love that. That's so adorable. Lauren: Yeah, it's called beer bash, or remote beer bash. Courtney: We've been thinking about doing something like that. One of the hardest things for me about being remote is when you really like your teammates, and you want to hang out with them, and you want to go to happy hour, but they live somewhere totally across the world.    Lauren: Right. That is like one of the hardest things for me. Especially because I do have all these-- we do hang out all the time the HQ people and we're like "Man, wouldn't it be so cool if like she was here? Or like.." Whoever, like, "Oh, Ryan would love this show, but he lives in LA".  It just feels like I have all these-- I feel like I have all these friends all over the place now, which is whacked, because I'm like do I even really know them? The funniest-- I don't know if you guys have ever experienced this, but like, there are people who are like really outgoing and all over Slack, and like in every channel, and like funny and hilarious and you feel like you really like know them. You know? And you're like, "They're great. This is awesome." And then they come to HQ, and they're like super shy. And they're in person [chuckles] and you got to like, "Ooh." I'm like, "Talk to me, we talk all the time." And they're super shy and you're like, "Is this like internet, what is this? What is happening here?" Courtney: That's so fascinating. Courtney: We've had the opposite happen a lot, where we can't really tell like, "Oh maybe they're shy?" Or like, "Maybe they're very professional?" And then  at our retreat they're like the karaoke superstar. And you're like, "I had no idea!" Lauren: That's great. But there is a lot to know about people. And the other thing is with the remote thing, because I'm in HQ, I see everybody when they on-board - they are here for the first week - but if I don't work on your team-- like for example, I would never work with a QA tester. There is absolutely no reason that I ever need to interface with a QA tester. So if they're remote and I never have to work with them, I really don't know them at all, and if I was remote too, I would have never even met them, and I would've never even worked with them. So I think about those things a lot. I think about remote people who don't know each other and I'm like, "You might like each other." Or like, "It's crazy that they don't even know each other," and those are the things that-- I worry about that or [laughter]-- I don't know.    Lauren: As teams grow, what can you really do about that? You can't be friends with everybody anyway. Even if we were all in the same building. I just am always wondering how do you supplant that funny little conversation that you had with that random person in the bathroom by the sink, or that silly little interaction when that person spilled all the pencils everywhere. How do you get that? I know you said, Courtney, that you guys have a lot of personal Slack channels. You have family channels and pets channels. That's something that we do too. All those cat people know everybody else's cats names and stuff like that. Alison: All the cat people [laughter]. Courtney: Yes. You’ve got to know the cats’ names. Lauren: Those are not my people. I'm in the dog room, but anyway [laughter]. Courtney: One thing that we found, and this is brand new. In Hawaii we were like, "Let's figure out Snapchat." So we did. We came back and we created a thread in our internal Facebook group where we're like, "Let's all follow each other on Snapchat." And it's turned out to be the most interesting way to see inside someone's life, because the stuff you share on Snapchat is your randomest, everyday, what's going on, like, "I'm walking to work, I'm eating a muffin," whatever is happening. Now I know people's pets, I people's kids, I know what filters they like. It's been a level of getting to know people that we just discovered.   Lauren: That's a great one. Alison: That might be the only legitimate use of Snapchat. Courtney: Right? It's perfect for remote teams. Lauren: That's a great one. Also, I'm always like, I'm too old for Snapchat. Courtney: That's what I thought, too. I'm very old. Alison: One thing that we did that's a lot of fun, everyone you know, you have that one little thing you know about them that's not necessarily mean, but it's that one little thing that you poke at. So one of our co-founders, Mike - he's our product guy - he loves Bud Light. He loves it. He unabashedly loves it [laughter]. That's what everyone knows about Mike and we all pick on Mike because of that. Everyone in Slack has their own little custom emoji that our developers will make. So Mike has his own little Bud Light can, mine is me riding a Segway.   Courtney:  You're riding a Segway? That's your thing? Alison: No, Zapier has a Segway. It was a gift from someone. And so whenever you go out to HQ you ride the Segway, it's almost like an initiation because they're really hard to ride. Someone took a picture of me riding the Segway and someone else, who wasn't there, loved it and turned into a Slack emoji. You find those fun little things that you-- little quirks in people, and that really comes out in Slack, for sure. And then that carries over, that carries over in real life too.   Alison: But it's getting more and more difficult, I think, the bigger we are. For us in Florida, I felt, and I think this is just a part of who I am, I felt a pretty tough-- a rough burden to make sure that everyone was hanging out, and was together, and I just think you pass a certain point. I'm sure, Courtney can speak to this too that's just not feasible, and you just really kind of have to let people and groups, say larger than 25, just kind of find their own thing and migrate around, and I think people are pretty good about doing that.  There's a giant board game contingency at Zapier and that's something   that like all the more introverted people like to do. I'm not a huge fan of it all, so I always abstain. So I think there is always ways for people to figure that out, and just you have to work a little bit harder at it when you are remote. Lauren:  Do you feel like you've made real friends? I feel like I have made real friends, but HQ and remote, more so HQ obviously because I see them more, but definitely remote also. I feel like I have made friends that are not just coworkers, but actual friends. Do you guys feel like you have that?   Alison:  Yeah. In fact, I just traveled a couple of months ago to Barcelona to spend a week with one of my teammates there. Lauren:  Amazing. Alison: And she's lovely. I love her to bits. I think that-- and I imagine Courtney and I have probably had this conversation personally before, but the older you get, you realize that you have to work harder for things that mean something. If something does mean something it's worth that work. And so I feel the same way with having being on a remote team. It's like when you find those people that personally even outside of work that you really like, and that you want to spend time with, who cares where they are or what the circumstances are? If it's worth having you just work hard and you do it. And so I think that that really kind of manifests itself in this world, because we all work harder to be there for each other, and to kind of grow, not only professionally, but personally as well. [music]   Courtney:  We'd love to hear how this podcast felt to you. If you've got questions, thoughts, feedback, we're definitely new at this. We're excited to learn. So  please be in touch with us. You can reach us on Twitter at@buffer and you can email us at hello@buffer.com. We're excited to hear from you. [music]  

A Guy Called Gerald – Humanity (Ashley Beedle's Love & Compassion Mix) [Studio !K7] Marlon D – Jesus creates sound [Strictly Rhythm] Gene Farris – Show Me A Man [Fluential] Hipp-E – Down On Me [Doubledown] Peace Division – Freaky [Low Pressings] Wyatt Earp & DJ Foxx – Soul Penetration (DJ Sense Remix) [Casa Del Soul] DJ Sense – Digital Spirituality [Casa Del Soul] Justin Maxwell – The Tussincussion [Palette] Grand High Priest – Mixdown [Strictly Rhythm] Basement Jaxx – Fly life Xtra (Mr Dan & Raf Daddy Dub) [Atlantic Jaxx] Luke Slater – Body Freefall, Electronic Inform (Junior Cartier's Highrise Mix) [Novamute] Mood II Swing Ft. Lauren – It's Gonna Work Out [Strictly Rhythm] Put it on – The Hidden Track (Justin Maxwell Remix) [True To Form] Mark Ambrose – I Wanna Go Bang [Crayon] Ty Tek – Audio Jackin (DJ Foxx's Audio Pushin' Mix) [Casa Del Soul]

A Guy Called Gerald – Humanity (Ashley Beedle’s Love & Compassion Mix) [Studio !K7] Marlon D – Jesus creates sound [Strictly Rhythm] Gene Farris – Show Me A Man [Fluential] Hipp-E – Down On Me [Doubledown] Peace Division – Freaky [Low Pressings] Wyatt Earp & DJ Foxx – Soul Penetration (DJ Sense Remix) [Casa Del Soul] DJ Sense – Digital Spirituality [Casa Del Soul] Justin Maxwell – The Tussincussion [Palette] Grand High Priest – Mixdown [Strictly Rhythm] Basement Jaxx – Fly life Xtra (Mr Dan & Raf Daddy Dub) [Atlantic Jaxx] Luke Slater – Body Freefall, Electronic Inform (Junior Cartier’s Highrise Mix) [Novamute] Mood II Swing Ft. Lauren – It’s Gonna Work Out [Strictly Rhythm] Put it on – The Hidden Track (Justin Maxwell Remix) [True To Form] Mark Ambrose – I Wanna Go Bang [Crayon] Ty Tek – Audio Jackin (DJ Foxx’s Audio Pushin’ Mix) [Casa Del Soul]

A Guy Called Gerald – Humanity (Ashley Beedle’s Love & Compassion Mix) [Studio !K7] Marlon D – Jesus creates sound [Strictly Rhythm] Gene Farris – Show Me A Man [Fluential] Hipp-E – Down On Me [Doubledown] Peace Division – Freaky [Low Pressings] Wyatt Earp & DJ Foxx – Soul Penetration (DJ Sense Remix) [Casa Del Soul] DJ Sense – Digital Spirituality [Casa Del Soul] Justin Maxwell – The Tussincussion [Palette] Grand High Priest – Mixdown [Strictly Rhythm] Basement Jaxx – Fly life Xtra (Mr Dan & Raf Daddy Dub) [Atlantic Jaxx] Luke Slater – Body Freefall, Electronic Inform (Junior Cartier’s Highrise Mix) [Novamute] Mood II Swing Ft. Lauren – It’s Gonna Work Out [Strictly Rhythm] Put it on – The Hidden Track (Justin Maxwell Remix) [True To Form] Mark Ambrose – I Wanna Go Bang [Crayon] Ty Tek – Audio Jackin (DJ Foxx’s Audio Pushin’ Mix) [Casa Del Soul]