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Join co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez in conversation with LitFriends Melissa Febos & Donika Kelly about their grand statements, big revelations, sentential seduction, queering forms, the power of vulnerability, and love poems. We're taking a break and will be back for our next episode with guests Yiyun Li & Edmund White on January 16,  2024. Happy Holidays, LitFam!   LINKS Libsyn Blog www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com www.melissafebos.com www.donikakelly.com LitFriends LinkTree LitFriends Insta LitFriends Facebook TRANSCRIPT Annie: (00:00) This episode is dedicated to Chuck, a dog we have loved, and Donika and Melissa's sweet pup.   Annie & Lito: Welcome to LitFriends! Hey Lit Friends!   Annie: Welcome to the show.    Lito: Today, we're speaking with memoirist Melissa Febos and poet Donika Kelly, lit friends in marriage,   Annie: About seduction, big boss feelings, and sliding into DMs.   Lito: So grab your bestie,   Annie & Lito: And get ready to fall in love!   Annie: What I love about Melissa Febos, and you can feel this across all four of her books, is how she declares herself free. There's no ambiguity to this. This is her story, not your telling of it, not your telling of her. I meet her on the page as someone who's in an act of rebellion or an act of defiance. And I was not really surprised but delighted to find that, when I read Donika Kelly, I had sort of the same reaction, same impression. And I'm wondering if that's true for you, and, Lito, what your understanding of vulnerability and its relationship to power is.   Lito: The power for me in these conversations, and the power that the authors that we speak with possess, seems to me, in the ways that they have found how they are completely unique from each other. And more so than in our other conversations, Donika and Melissa, their work is so different. And yet, as you've pointed out, the overlap, and the fire, the energy, the defiance, the fierceness is so present. And it was present in our conversation. And so inspiring.   Annie: Yeah. I'm thinking even about Melissa Febos has this Ted Talk. (01:54) Where she says "telling your secrets will set you free." And it feels that not only is that true, but it's also very much an act of self reclamation and strength, right? Where we might read it as an act of weakness. It's actually in fact, a harnessing of the self.   Lito: Right, it's not that Melissa has a need to confess. It's that she really uses writing to find the truth about herself and how she feels about something, which that could not differ more from my writing practice.   Annie: How so?   Lito: I find that I sort of, I write out of an emotion or a need to discover something, but I already sort of am aware of where I am and who I am before I start. I find the plot and the characters as I go, but I know sort of how I feel.   Annie: Yeah, I think for me, I do feel like writing is an act of discovery where maybe I put something on the page, it's the initial conception, or yeah, like you coming out of a feeling. But as I start to ask questions, right, for me, it's this process of inquiry. I excavate to something maybe a little more surprising or partially hidden or unknown to myself.   Lito: That's true. There is a discovery of, and I think you're, I think you've pointed to exactly what it is. It's the process of inquiry, and I think both of them, and obviously us, we're doing that similar thing. This is about writing, about this, this is about asking questions and writing through them.   Annie: Yeah, and Donika Kelly, we feel that in her work, her poetry over and over, even when they have the same recurring, I would say haunting images or artifacts. Each time she's turning it over and asking almost unbearable questions.   Lito: Right.   Annie: And we're joining her on the page because she is brave enough and has an iron will and says, no, I will not not look this in the eye.    Lito: That's the feeling exactly that I get from both of them is the courage, the bravura of the unflinching.   Annie: I think something that seemed to resonate with you was (03:58) how they talk about writing outside of publishing right? Yeah.   Lito: Yeah, I love I love that they talk about writing as a practice regardless, they're separated from The need to produce a work that's gonna sell in a commercial world in a capitalist society. It's more about the daily practice, and how that is a lifestyle and even what you said about the TED talk, that's just her. She's just talking about herself. Like that she's just telling an absolute truth that people don't typically talk about.   Annie: Right. And it's a conscious, active way to live inside one's life. It's a form of reflection, meditation, and rather than just moving through life, a way to make meaning of the experience.   Lito: I love that you use the word meditation because when you talk about meditation, you think of someone in a lotus position quietly being, but the meditations that both of them do, these are not quiet.   Annie: No. And of course we have to talk about how cute they are as married literary besties.   Lito: Oh my god, cute and like, they're hot for each other.   Annie: Oh my god.   Lito: It's palpable.   Annie: So palpable, sliding into DMs, chatting each other up over email.   Lito: They romanced each other, and I hope—no—I know they're gonna romance you, listener.   Annie: We'll be right back.   Lito: (05:40) Back to the show.   Annie: Melissa Febos is the author of four books, including the best-selling essay collection Girlhood, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award, was a Lambda finalist, and was named a notable book by NPR, Time Magazine, the Washington Post, and others. Her craft book Body Work is a national bestseller and an Indie's Next Pick. Her forthcoming novel The Dry Season is a work of mixed form nonfiction that explores celibacy as liberatory practice. Melissa lives in Iowa City with her wife, the poet Donika Kelly, and is a professor in the English department at the University of Iowa, where she teaches creative writing.   Lito: Donika Kelly is the author of The Renunciations, winner of the Anisfield-Wolf Book Award in poetry and Bestiary, the winner of the 2015 Cave Canem Poetry Prize, a Hurston Wright Legacy Award for poetry, and the Kate Tufts Discovery Award. Donika has been a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award, the Publishing Triangle Awards, the Lambda Literary Awards, and was long listed for the National Book Award. (06:00) Donika lives in Iowa City with her wife, the writer Melissa Febos, and is an assistant professor in the English department at the University of Iowa, where she teaches creative writing.   Annie: Well, thank you for joining us for LitFriends to talk about the ultimate lit friendship. It does seem like you've won at the game of lit friends a little bit, having married your lit friend. I think of you both as writers who are in the constant act of subversion and resisting erasure. And that's the kind of work that Lito and I are drawn to, and that we're trying to do ourselves. And your work really shows us how to inhabit our bravest and most complex selves on the page. So we're really grateful for that.   Melissa: Thanks.   Annie: Yeah, of course. I mean, Donika, I think about poems of yours that my friends and I revisit constantly because we're haunted by them in the best way. They've taken residence inside of us. And you talk about what it means to have to do that work. And you've said, "to admit need and pain, desire and trauma and claim my humanity was often daunting. But the book demanded I claim my personhood."   And Melissa, I think you know how much your work means to me. I mean, as someone who is raised as a girl in this country and writing creative nonfiction, Body Work should not be as revelatory as it is. Yet what I see is that you're shaping an entire generation of nonfiction writers, many of them women. So, you know, also very grateful for that. And you've talked about that in Body Work. You've said "the risk of honest self-appraisal requires bravery to place our flawed selves in the context of this magnificent broken world is the opposite of narcissism, which is building a self-image that pleases you." So we'll talk more in a bit about courage and vulnerability and how you all do the impossible things you do, but let's dive into your lit friendship.   Melissa: Thank you, Annie, for that beautiful introduction.   Donika: Yeah, thank you so much. I'm excited to talk about our friendship.   Lito: We're so excited to have you here.   Melissa: Talk about our special friendship.   Annie: Very special friendship. Friendship with benefits.   Lito: So tell us about your lit friend, Melissa, tell us about Donika.   Melissa: (09:07) Tell us about her. Okay, she's fucking hilarious, like very, very funny and covers a broad spectrum of humor from like, there's a lot of like punning that goes on in our house, a lot of like silly wordplay, bathroom humor, and then like high level, like, literary academic sort of witticism that's also making fun of itself a lot. And we've sort of operated in all of those registers since like the day we met.   She is my favorite poet. There's like those artists that whose work you really appreciate, right? Sometimes because it's so different from your own. And then there are those artists whose work registers in like a very deep sort of recognition where they feel like creative kin, right? And that has always been my experience of Donika's work. That there is a kind of creative intelligence and emotionality that just feels like so profoundly familiar to me and was before I knew anything about her as a human being.   Okay, we also like almost all the same candy and have extremely opposite work habits. She's very hot. She only likes to watch like TVs and movies that she's seen many times before, which is both like very comforting and very annoying.   Lito: Well, I'm gonna have to follow that up now. What are some of the top hits?   Melissa: Oh, for sure, Golden Girls is at the very top. I mean…   Annie: No one's mad at that.   Lito: We can do the interview right now. Perfect. All we need to know. A++!   Melissa: She's probably like 50% of the time that she's sleeping, she falls asleep to the soundtrack of the Golden Girls or Xena, maybe. But we've also watched the more recent James Bond franchise, The Matrices, (11:00) and Mission Impossible, never franchises I ever thought I would watch once, let alone multiple times at some point.   Annie: I mean, Donika, your queerness is showing with that list.   Lito: Yeah.   Donika: I feel seen. I feel represented accurately by that list. She's not wrong. She's not wrong at all. But I've also introduced to her the pleasure of revisiting work.   Melissa: That's right.   Donika: And that was not a thing that Melissa was doing before we met, which feels confusing to me. Because I am a person who really likes to revisit. She was buying more books when we met, and now she uses the library more, and that feels like really exciting. That feels like a triumph on my part. I'm like…   Annie: That is a victory. Yeah.   Donika: …with the public services.   Melissa; Both of these examples really allude to like this deep, fundamental sort of capitalistic set of habits that I have, where I… like there's like this weird implicit desire to try to read as many books as possible before I perish, and also to hoard them, I guess. And I'm very happy to have been influenced out of that.   Annie: Well it's hard not to think—I think about that tweet like once a week that's like you have an imaginary bookshelf, and there are a limited amount of books on that you can read before you die, and that like troubles me every day.   Melissa: Yeah it's so fucked up. (12:22) I don't want that. It's already in my head. I feel like I was born with that in my head, and I'm trying to get free.   Lito: Same. Serious book FOMO, like…   Donika: There are so many books y'all.   Lito: I know. It's not possible.   Donika: And, it's like, there are more and more every year.   Annie: Well, uh Donika tell us about Melissa.   Donika: Oh Melissa As she has already explained we have a lot of fun It's a funny household. She's hilarious. Um, and also she's a writer of great integrity, which you know I'm sitting on the couch reading Nora Roberts, and she's like in her office hammering away at essays, and I don't know what's going on in there. I'm very nosy. I'm a deeply nosy person. Like, I just I want to know like what's going on. I want to know the whole history, and it's really amazing to be with someone who is like here it is.   Annie: How did you all meet?   Donika: (13:20) mere moments after Trump was elected in 2016. I was in great despair. I was living in Western New York. I was teaching at a small Catholic university. Western New York is very conservative. It's very red. And I was in this place and I was like, this place is not my place. This place is not for me. And I was feeling very alone. And Melissa had written an essay that came out shortly after about teaching creative writing at a private institution in a red county. And I was like, oh, she gets it, she understands.   I started, I just like looked for everything. I looked for like everything that she had written. I read it, I watched the TED talk. I don't know if y'all know about the TED talk. There was a TED talk. I watched the TED talk. I was like, she's cute. I read Whip Smart. I followed her on Twitter. I developed a crush, and I did nothing else. So this is where I pass the baton. So I did all of that.   Melissa: I loved Bestiaries, and I love the cover. The cover of her book is from this medieval bestiary. And so I just bought it, and I read it. And I just had that experience that I described before where I was just like, "Oh, fuck. Like this writer and I have something very deep in common." And I wrote her. I DMed her on Twitter.   Sometimes I obscure this part of the story because I want it to appear like I sent her a letter by raven or something. But actually, I slid into her DMs, and I just was like, "hey, I loved your book. If you ever come to New York and want help setting up a reading, like I curate lots of events, da da da." And I put my email in. And not five minutes later, refreshed my Gmail inbox, and there was an email from Donika, and…   Donika: I was like, "Hi. Hello. It's me."   Annie: So you agree with this timeline, Donika, right? Like, it was within five minutes.   Donika: Yeah, it was very fast. And I think if I hadn't read everything that I could get my hands on that Melissa had written, I may have been a little bit slower off the mark. It wasn't romantic. Like the connection, I wasn't like, oh, this is someone who like I want to (15:41) strike up a romantic relationship with, it really was the work. Like I just respected the work so much.   I mean, I did have a crush, like that was real, but I have crushes on lots of people, like that sort of flows in and out, but that often is a signifier of like, oh, this person will be my friend. And I was still married at the time and trying to figure out, like that relationship was ending. It was coming to a quick close that felt slow. Like it was dragging a little bit for lots of reasons.   But then once it was clear to me that I was getting divorced, Melissa and I continued writing to each other like for the next few months. Yeah. And then I was like, oh, I'm getting divorced. I was like, I'm getting divorced. And then suddenly the emails were very different. From both of us. It wasn't different.   Melissa: There had been no romantic strategy or intent, you know, and I think which, which was a really great way to, we really started from a friendship.   Annie: And sounds like a courtship really. I mean, it kind of is an old fashion.   Melissa: Yeah, in some way, it became that. I think it became that. But I think it was, I mean, the best kind of courtship begins as a, as a friendly courtship, you know what I mean? Where it was about sort of mutual artistic respect and curiosity and just interest. And it wasn't defined yet, like, what sort of mood that interest would take for a while, you know?   Lito: So how do you seduce each other on and off the page?   Donika: That's a great question.   Melissa: That is a great question.   Donika: I am not good at seduction. So that is not a skill set that is available to me. It has never been available.   Lito: I do not believe that.   Annie: I know. I'm also in disbelief out here, really.   Melissa: No one believes it, but she insists.   Annie: I feel like that's part of the game, is my feeling, but it is not.   Melissa: It's not. Here's the thing I will say is that like Donika, I've thought a lot about this and we've talked a lot about this because I balked at that statement as well. It's like Donika is seductive. Like there are qualities about her that are very seductive, but she does not seduce people. You know what I mean? Like she doesn't like turn on the charisma and shine it at you like a hypnotist. Like that's not… (18:08) that's not her form of seduction, but I will say…   I can answer that question in terms of like, I think in terms of the work, since we've been talking about that, like in a literary way, both in her own work, like the quality, like just someone who's really good at what they do is fucking sexy, you know? Like when I was looking for like a little passage before this interview, I was just like, "ah, this is so good." Like it's so attractive when someone is really, really good at their craft. right? Especially when it's a crop that you share.   Donika: So Melissa does have the ability to turn on what she has written about, which I think is really funny. Like she like she has like, she has a very strong gaze. It's very potent. And one of my gifts is to disrupt that and be like, what are you doing with your eyes? And so like, when I think about that in the work, when I'm reading her work, and I'm in like its deepest thrall, it is that intensity of focus that really like pulls me in and keeps me in. She's so good at making a grand statement.   Melissa: I was just gonna bring that up.   Donika: Oh, I think she and I like often get to, we arrive at sort of similar places, but she gets there from the grand statement, and I get there from the granular statement, like it's a very narrow sort of path. And then Melissa's like, "every love is a destroyer." I was like, whoa, every one? And there's something really compelling about that mode of— because it's earnest, and it's backed up by the work that she's written. I would never think to say that.   Melissa: I have a question for you, lit friend. Do you think you would be less into me if I weren't? Because I think for a nonfiction writer, I'm pretty obsessed with sentences. It's writing sentences that makes, that's the thing I love most about writing. It's like where the pleasure is for me. So I'm a pretty poetically inclined nonfiction writer. If I were less so, do you think that would be less seductive to you as a reader or a lit friend?   Donika: I mean, that's like asking me to imagine like, "so, what if… (20:30) water wasn't wet?" I just like, I can't like, I can't imagine. I do think the pleasure of the sentence is so intrinsic to like, I think there's something in the, in your impulse at the sentence level. That means that you're just careful. You're not rushing. You're not rushing us through an experience or keeping us in there and focused. And it's just it's tricky to imagine, or almost impossible to imagine what your work would look like if that weren't the impulse.   Lito: Yeah, I think that's an essential part of your style in some ways, that you're taking that time.   Melissa: Mm-hmm.    Annie: And how you see the world. Like I don't even think you would get to those big revelations Donika's talking about without it.   Melissa: Yeah. Right. I don't, yeah, I don't think I would either. We'll be right back.   Lito (21:19) Hey Lit Fam, Lit Friends is taking a break for the holiday. We hope you'll join us for our next episode with our guests, Ian Lee and Edmund White on January 16th. Till then, may your holiday be lit, your presents be numerous, and your 2024 be filled with joy and peace. If you'd like to show us some love, please take a moment now to follow, subscribe, rate, and review the LitFriends Podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few moments of your time will help us so much. Big hugs to you and yours. Thank you for listening. And thank you for making season one a big success!   Annie: (22:05) Welcome back.   Lito: I've noticed that both of you, you know, you have your genres that you work in, but within that you're experimenting a lot with form and structure. Does anything of that come from being queer? I guess it's a question about queering forms of literature, and what that has to do also with the kinds of friendships that queer people have, and if that's different, maybe. So I guess I'm asking to connect form with queerness and friendship.   Melissa: That's a beautiful question. I think, and I'm starting with thinking about my relationship to form, which has been one of inheriting some scripts for forms. This is what an essay should look like. This is what plot structure looks like. This is how you construct a narrative. And sort of taking those for granted a little bit, and then pretty early on, understanding the limitations of those structures and the ways that they require that I contort myself and my content such that it feels like a perversion or betrayal of sort of what I'm dealing with, right? And so the way I characterize my trajectory, the trajectory of my relationship to form has been sort of becoming conscious of those inherited forms, and then pushing the boundaries of them and modifying them and distorting them and adding things to them and figuring out, letting my work sort of teach me what form it rests most easily in and is most transparent in. And I suspect that my relationship to friendship and particularly queer friendship mimics that.   Donika: Yeah, that sounds right to me. And I'm reminded of Denise Levertov has this essay titled "On the Function of the Line." And in it, she presents an argument that closed forms, received forms, are based on a kind of assumption of resolution, and that free verse or open design, like in a poem, it shows evidence of the speaker's thinking.   (24:24) Right? So that where the line breaks, the speaker is pausing, right? To gather their thoughts or like a turn might happen that's unexpected that mimics the turns in thinking. And I really love that essay. Like that essay is one of my favorites. So when I think about my approach to form, I'm like, what is the shape that this poem is asking for? What is the shape that will do, that will help the poem do its best work? And not even like to be good, but just like to be true.   I really love the sonnet shape. Like it's one of my favorite shapes. And it's so interesting and exciting to use a shape that is based on like argumentative structure or a sense of resolution, to explore. Like to use that as an exploratory space, it feels like queering our, like my expectations of what the sonnet does. Like there's something about the box. If I bounce around inside that box, there's gonna be something that comes out of that, that I wouldn't necessarily have gotten otherwise, but it's not resolution. Like the point is not resolution.   And when I think about my relationships and my chosen family, in particular, and to some degree actually my given family, part of what I'm thinking about is how can I show up and care and what does care look like in this relationship and how can I make room to be cared for? And that's so hard, like being cared for is so much more alien to me than, like, as a concept, like I feel like very anxious about it. I'm like, "am I asking for too much?" And like over and over again, my chosen family is like, "no, it's not too much. Like we, we got each other."   Melissa: I think particularly for queer people, we understand that it doesn't preclude romance or healthy kinds of dependency or unhealthy kinds of dependency, you know, that all of the things that happen in a very deep love relationship happen inside of friendship, where I think sort of like straight people and dominant culture have been like, "oh, no, like friendship isn't the site of like great romance or painful divorce or abuse." And queer people understand that all of those things happen within relationships that we call friendships.   Annie: (26:46) Yeah, I mean, I'm hearing you both talk about kind of queer survival and joy and even, Donika, what you were saying about having to adjust to being cared for as a kind of, you know, that's a sort of, to me, it's a sort of like a survivor's stance in the world. One of the things that I love about my kinship with Lito as, you know, my queer lit friend and, you know, brother from another mother is that he holds that space for me and I, you know, vice versa.   Even thinking about vulnerability, I think you both wield vulnerability as a tool of subversion too, right? And again, Lito and I are both creating projects right now that require a kind of rawness on the page. I'm about to publish a memoir called Sex with a Brain Injury, so I'm very consciously thinking about how we define vulnerability, what kind of work it does to reshape consciousness in the collective. And the ways that you each write about trauma helps us understand it as an act of reclamation, you know, power rather than powerlessness. So maybe you could talk a little bit about what is or what can be transformative about the confessional and maybe even more to the point, what does your lit friend teach you about vulnerability?   Melissa: (28:06) Oh, God, what doesn't she teach me about vulnerability? It's interesting because like you're correct that vulnerability is like very central to my work and to the like lifelong project of my work, and also like there's literally nothing on earth I would like to avoid more. And I don't think that is visible in my work, right? Because my work is the product of counteracting that set of instincts, which I must do to survive because the part of me that wants to avoid vulnerability, its end point is like literally death for me.   It is writing for me often starts from like kind of a pragmatic practice. I don't start like feeling my feelings. I write to get to my feelings and sometimes that doesn't happen until like after a book is published sometimes. You know like it's really interesting lately I've been confronting some feelings in like a really deep way that I think I have gotten access to from writing Girlhood, which came out in 2021. And it's like I had to sort of lay it all out, understand what happened, redefine my role in it and everyone else's. And I definitely had feelings while I was writing it. But like the feelings that Donika refers to as the big boss, like the deepest feelings about it. Like I, I feel like I'm only really getting. to it now.   My relationship to vulnerability, it's just like, it's a longitudinal process, you know? And there's no one who's taught me about that and how to be sort of like gentle and patient within that and to show up for it than Donika.   And I'm just thinking of like, you know, starting from pretty early in our relationship, she was working on the poems in The Renunciations, and over the years of our early, the early years of our relationship, she was confronting some childhood, some really profound childhood trauma. And she was doing that in therapy. And then there were like pieces of that work that she had to do in the poems. And I just watched her not force it. And when it was time, she like created the space to do the work. And like, I wasn't (30:35) there for that. I don't think anyone else really could have been there for that. And just like showing up for that work.   And then like the long tail of like publishing a book and having conversations with people and the way that it changes one's relationship and like the act of the vulnerability—achieved feels like the wrong word—but the vulnerability like expressed or found in the writing process, how that is just like a series of doorways and a hallway that maybe it never terminates. Maybe it doesn't even turn into death. I don't know. You know, but I've just seen her show up for that process with like a patience and a tenderness for herself at every age that I find incredibly challenging. And it's been super instructive for me.   Donika: Ooh. I, I'm, it makes me really happy to know that's your experience of like being like in like shared artistic space together. I think I go to poetry to understand, to help myself understand what it is that I'm holding and what it is that I wanna put down. Like that's what the poems are for. You know, like the act of writing helps me sort out what I need and what I wanna put down because narrative is so powerful. It feels like the one place where I can say things that are really hard, often because I've already said them in therapy.   Right? So then it's like, I can then explore what having said those hard things means in my life or how it sits in my life. And what Melissa shows me is that one can revise. I know I've said this like a few times, but that one can have a narrative. Like I think about reading Whipsmart and the story that she has about herself as a child in Whipsmart, and then how that begins to change a bit in Abandon Me. And then in Girlhood, it's really disrupted. And there is so much more tenderness there, I think. It looks really hard. Like, honestly, that joint looks hard because I might be in a poem, but I'm in it for like, like we're in it, like if I were to read it out loud for like a minute and a half.   Melissa: (33:50) It's interesting hearing you talk. I wonder if this is true. I think I'm hearing that it is true. And I think that's where it's with my experience that you often get to the feelings like in therapy or wherever, and then write the poems as more of a sort of emotional, but like also cognitive and kind of systemic and like a way of like making sense of it or putting it in context. And I think very much I, there'll be like deeply submerged feelings that emerge only as like impulses or something, you know, but I experience writing— I don't that often feel intense emotion while I'm writing. I think it's why that is writing is almost always the first place that I encounter my own vulnerability or that I say the like unspeakable thing or the thing that I have been unable to say. I often write it and then I can talk to my therapist about it or then I can talk to Donika about it.   And I think I can't. I'm too afraid or it feels like too much to feel the feelings while I'm writing. So I sort of experience it as a cognitive or like intellectual and creative exercise. And then once I understand it, sometime in the next five years, I feel the feelings.   Annie: Do you feel like it's a kind of talking to yourself or like talking outside of the world? Like what is it in that space that does that for you?   Melissa: Yeah, I do. I mean, it's like. Talking outside the world makes more sense to me than talking to myself. I mean, it is talking to myself, right? It's a conversation with myself, but it's removed from the context of me in my daily life. That's why it's possible. Within my daily life, I'm too connected to other people and my own internal pressures and just like the busy, superficial part of me that's like driving a lot of my days. I have to get away from her in order to do that work.   And so the writing really happens in a kind of separate space and feels like it is not, it has a kind of privacy that I don't experience in any other way in my life, where I really have built or found a space where I am never thinking about what other people think of me, and I'm not imagining a skeptical reader. (35:18) It is really like this weird spiritual, emotional, creative, intellectual space that is just separate from all of that, where I can sort of think and be curious freely.   And I think I created that space or found it really early on because I was, even as a kid, I was a person who was like so concerned with the people around me, with the adults around me, with what performances were expected of me. And being a person who was like very deeply thinking and feeling, I was like, well, there's no room for that here. So I need to like find somewhere else to do it. And so I think writing became that for me way before I thought about being a writer.   Lito: That's so fascinating to me. I think that's so different than how I work or Donika works or a lot of people I know. We'll be right back.   Lito: (36:26) Back to the show.   So this question is for both of you really, but it just makes me wonder then like, what is the role for emotion, but in particular anger? How does that like, when things get us angry, sometimes that motivates us to do something, right? So if you're not being inspired by an emotion to write, you're writing and then finding it, how does anger work as not only a tool for survival, but maybe a path towards personhood and freedom?   Donika: Oh, I was just thinking, I can't write out of that space, the space of anger. It took me a long time to get in touch with anger as a feeling. That took a really long time because in my family, in my given family, the way that people expressed anger was so dangerous that I felt that I didn't want to occupy those spaces. I didn't want to move emotionally into that, into that space if that was what it looked like. And it took me a long time to figure out how to be angry. And I'm still not sure that I'm great at it. Because I think often I'm moving quickly to like what's under that feeling. And often what's under my feelings of being angry, often, not always, is being hurt, feeling hurt. And I can… write into exploring what that hurt is, because I know how to do that with some tenderness and some care.   Melissa: I feel similarly, which is interesting, because we've never talked about this, I don't think. But anger is also a feeling that I think, for very different reasons, when I was growing up… I mean, I think just like baseline being socialized as a girl dissuaded me from expressing anger or even from feeling it, because where would that go?   But I also think in the particular environment that I was in, I understood pretty early that my expressions of anger would be like highly injurious to the people around me and that it would be better if I found another way to express those things. I think my compulsive inclinations have been really useful in that way. And it's taken me a lot of my adult life to sort of… (38:44) take my anger or as Donika said, you know, like anger for me almost always factors down to something that is largely powerlessness, you know, to sort of not take the terror and fury of powerlessness and express it through like ultimately self harming means.   Writing can be a way for me to arrive at like justifiable anger and to sort of feel that and let that move through me or to be like, oh, that was unjust. I was powerless in that situation. You know? Yeah, it has helped me in that way. But like, if I'm really being honest, I think I exhaust myself with exercise. And that's how I mostly deal with my feelings of anger.   Annie: Girl.   Melissa: Yeah, there's also a way I will say that like, I do think it actually comes out in my work in some ways. Like there is like a very direct, not people-pleasing vibe and tone in my work that is genuine, but that I almost never have in my life. Like maybe a little bit as a professor, but like    When Donika met me, she was like, "Oh… like you're just like this little gremlin puppy person. You're not like this intense convicted former dominatrix." You know, which is, I express it in my writing because it is a space where I'm not worried about placating or pleasing really. It's a space where I'm, I am almost solely interested in what I actually think.   Donika: I was just thinking about like the beginning of, I think it's "Wild America," when you talk about like not cleaning your room, Melissa. Because you didn't, like when you were a kid, right? It was like you cleaned your room when you wanted to appear good, but that didn't matter to you when you were alone in your room. Like you could get lost in a book or you could, you know, like just be inside yourself alone when you were alone in your room. And that's one of my favorite passages that you read. Like I'm always sort of like mouthing along, like it's a song.   Melissa: (40:57) I'm just interested and I really love the sort of conception of like a girl's room as a potential space that sort of maps on to the way I described the writing space where it's just like a space where other, where the gaze of others, or the gaze that we're taught to please like can be kept out to some extent. And just like, you know, that isn't true, obviously for like lots and lots and lots of girls, but just that there is an impetus for us to create or invent or designate a space where that is true.   Lito: Yeah, I think that's what she's up to in "A Room of One's Own."   Annie: It makes me think of like girls' rooms as like kind of also these reductive spaces, like they all have to have pink or whatever, but then you like carve out a secret space for yourself in that room, which I think is what you're talking about with your writing.   Donika: Oh, I was just thinking about what happens when you don't have a room like that, cause I didn't, like I absolutely did not have a room that was… inviolable in some way or that like really felt like I could close the door. But writing became a place where that work could happen and where those explorations could happen and where I could do whatever I want and I had control over so many aspects of the work. And I hesitated because I was saying I didn't have that much control over the content.   Like I might think, oh, I'm gonna write a poem about this or a poem about that. And as is true with most writing, the poems are so much smarter and reveal so much more than I might have intended, but I could like shape the box. There are just like so many places to have control in a poem, like there's so many mechanisms to consider where like when Melissa was first sharing like early work with me, I would get so nervous because I would wanna move a comma.   Because in a poem, like that's a big deal, moving somebody's commas around, changing the punctuation. And she was like, "it doesn't matter."   Melissa: I would get nervous because she would be like, "well, I just have one note, but it's like, kind of big." And I would be like, "oh, fuck, I failed." And she would be like,    Donika: "What's going on with these semicolons?"   Melissa: She'd be like, "I just, these semicolons."   Annie: You know, hearing you both talk about (43:20) how you show up for one another as readers, right? In addition to like romantic partners. I mean, we do have the sense, and this can be true of all marriages, queer or otherwise, where like we as readers have a pretty superficial understanding of what you kind of each bring to the table or how you create this protective space or really see one another. I imagine that you've saved yourselves, but I'm curious about to what extent this relationship may have also been a way to save you or subvert relationships that have come before. And yet at the same time, we've asked this question of other lit friends too, which is, you know, what about competition between lit friends? And what does that look like in a marriage? What is a good day versus a bad day?   Donika: I mean, we could be here for years talking about that first question. And so I'm gonna turn to the second part to talk about competition, which is much easier to handle.   I feel genuinely and earnestly so excited at the recognition that Melissa has received. Part of what was really exciting for me about the beginning of our relationship that continues to be exciting is that, is getting to watch someone be truly mid-career and navigate that with integrity. It feels like such a good model, for how to be a writer.   I mean, she's much more forward-facing than I would ever want to be. But I think in terms of just thinking about like, what is the work? How, like, where is the integrity? Like, it's just, it's always so, so forward and it feels really grounding for me and us in the house, so it's always big cheers in here. It helps that we write in different genres. I think that's super helpful.   Melissa: I think it's absolutely key. Yeah.   Donika: It's not, I mean, I think, and that we have very different measures of ambition. I think those two things together are really, really helpful.   But I've read everything that Melissa has written, I think. (45:38) There might be like a few little, I mean, I've read short story, like that short, there was like a short story from like shortly, I think after you, like before you were in your MFA program, maybe.   Melissa: Oh my God. What short story?   Donika: I can't, I'll find it. And show it to you later.   Melissa: Is it about that little plant?   Donika: No, no, it might've been an essay. I'm not sure.   Annie: I love this. This is sort of hot breaking news on LitFriends.   Donika: It's like, I've just like, I did a deep Google dive. I was like, I want to read everything and it's, it feels really exciting.   Melissa: You know, I've dated writers before, and it was a different situation. And I think even if I hadn't, even before I ever did, I thought, that seems unlikely to work. Because even though there are lots of like obvious ways that it could be great, the competition just seemed like such a poison dart that it would be really hard to avoid because writers are competitive, and I'm competitive. And maybe it would have been harder if we were younger or something.   And certainly if we were in the same genre, I think actually, who knows? Maybe it would be possible if we were in the same genre, but it would require a little more care. Even if for some reason we would never publish again, we would keep writing. It just like it functions in our lives in similar ways. And it's like a practice that we came to, you know, I have a more hungry ambition or have historically. And I think our relationship is something that helps me keep the practice at the center because we're constantly talking about it. And I'm constantly observing Donika's relationship to her work. So it really hasn't felt very relevant. Like it's kind of shocking to me how, how little impact competition or comparing has in our relationship. It's really like not even close to one of the top notes of things that might create conflict for us, you know, and I'm so grateful for that. And so happy to have like underestimated what's possible when you have a certain level of intimacy and respect and sort of compatibility with someone.   Lito: We'll be right back.   Annie: (47:57) Welcome back. Well, then I'm wondering, you know, you both have had some like incredible successes in the last few years. And I'm wondering if conversely, you've been able to show up for one another in moments of high pressure or exposure, or, you know, having to confront the world, having been vulnerable on the page in the ways you have been.   Melissa: Donika was not planning on having a book launch for The Renunciations.   Donika: What's a book launch? Like, why do people do that?   Annie: Listen, mine's going to be a dance party, Donika. So…   Melissa: And I made, meanwhile, like when I published Abandon Me, I had a giant dance party that I had like several costume changes for during. But I remember feeling pretty confident about making a strong case multiple times for her to have a book launch for The Renunciations. And also like having a lot of respect and like tenderness watching her navigate what it meant to take work that vulnerable and figure out how to like speak for it and talk about it and like present it to the world. Parts of her would have preferred to just let the book completely speak for itself out there.    Donika: But you were right it was a good time.   Melissa: I was right.   Donika: Because like when Melissa's so when Girlhood came out it was like, that was still the time of like so many virtual events. And it was just like, I think that first week there was like something every day that week, like there was an event every day that week. And now, now like, again, I had to be talked into having a book launch. So I own this. Um, but I was like, Ooh, why, why would you do that? Oh, yeah. Four?   Melissa: This is definitely one of the ways that she and I are like diametrically opposed, and therefore I think, helpful to each other in sort of like creating a kind of tension that can be uncomfortable but is mostly good for both of us to be sort of pulled closer to the middle.   Donika: But my favorite part of that is then hearing you give advice to your friends who are very similar and be like, "whoa, you did too much. You put too many things on the calendar."     Melissa: (50:15) You know, some people would say that that's hypocrisy, but I actually think, I have a real dubious like position and thinking about hypocrisy because I am an expert in overdoing things. And so I think I speak from, I am like the voice of Christmas future. You know what I mean? I'm like, let me speak to you from the potential future that you are currently planning with your publicist. And like, it's not pretty and it doesn't feel good. And it's not, it has not delivered the feeling that you're imagining when you're scheduling all those events.   Annie: I can appreciate this. And I appreciate Donika's kind of role, this particular role in a relationship, because sometimes I just have to go see Leto and literally just lay on Lito and be like, stop me from doing anymore.   Melissa: I know, I know.   Lito: You and Sara are like super overachievers. I have to be like, "can you calm down?"   Annie: We do too much.   Lito: Way too much. What would you like to see your lit friend make or create next?   Donika: I got two answers to this. The first one is the Cape Cod lesbian mystery. I'm ready. You know, we got, I've offered so much assistance as a person who will never write prose. Um, but I got notes and ideas. The second one is, uh, a micro essay collection titled Dogs I Have Loved. Cause I think it would be a New York Times bestseller.   Lito: Oh, I love that.   Donika: I know.   Lito: Speaking of, who's the little gremlin puppy there?   Donika: Oh, yeah, that's Chuck. Chuck is a 15-year-old chihuahua. I've had him since he was a puppy.   Annie: Is Chuck like a nickname, or is that just, it's just Chuck?   Donika: It's just Chuck.   Lito: I love that.   Melissa: His nickname is Charles sometimes. One of his nicknames is Charles, but his full name is Chuck.   Melissa: OK, so I would say, I mean, my first thought at this question was like, I want Donika to keep doing exactly what she's been doing? As far as I can tell, she doesn't have a lot of other voices getting in the way of that process. My second thought is that I'm really interested. I've never heard her talk. She has no interest in writing prose of any kind. She is like deeply wedded to poetry. But I have heard her talk more recently about potential collaborations with (52:40) other artists, visual artists and other writers. And I would, I'm really excited to see what comes out of that space.   Lito: Would you all ever collaborate beyond your marriage?   Annie: I could see you all doing a craft book together.   Melissa: I feel like we could make like a chapbook that had prose and poems in it that were responding to a shared theme. I could definitely see that.   Donika: I really thought you were gonna say Love Poems for Melissa Febos, that's what you wanted to see next.   Melissa: I mean, I already know that that's on deck, so I don't... I mean, it's in, it's on the docket. It's on deck. Yeah. So…   Lito: Those sonnets, get to work on the sonnets.   Donika: Such a mess.   Melissa: This is real, you think, this is not, like, a conversation of the moment. This is…   Annie: Oh no, we can, this is history.   Donika: "Where's my century of sonnets?" she says.   Lito (53:33) What is your first memory?   Donika: Dancing?   Melissa: Donika telling me I'm pretty.   Annie (54:15.594) Who or what broke your heart first?   Melissa: Maddie, our dog.   Donika: Kerri Strug, 1996 Olympics. Vault.   Lito: Atlanta.   Donika: The Vault final. Yeah. Heartbreaking.   Lito: Who would you want to be lit friends with from any time in history, living or dead?   Donika: I just thought Gwendolyn Brooks. I'm gonna go with that.   Lito: I love Gwendolyn Brooks.   Donika: Oh yeah.   Melissa: My first thought is Baldwin.   Donika: It's a great party. We're at a great party.   Melissa: I just feel like I would be like, "No, James!" all the time.   Melissa: (54:30) Or like Truman Capote.   Lito: It'd be wild.   Donika: Messy. So messy.   Annie: What's your favorite piece of music?   Melissa: Oh my god, these questions are crazy! "Hallelujah"?   Donika: Oh god, there's an aria from Diana Damraus' first CD. She's a Soprano. And it's a Mozart aria, and I don't know where it's from, and I can't tell you the name because it's in Italian and I don't speak Italian, but that joint is exceptional. So that's what I'm gonna go with. Oh God, just crying in the car.   Lito: If you could give any gift to your lit friend without limitations, what would you give them?   Donika: Just like gold chains. So many gold chains. Yeah! If I could have a gold chain budget, it'd be a lot.   Annie: (55:23) Donika, we can do this.   Lito: Achievable.   Donika: I mean, yeah. Yeah.   Lito: Bling budget.   Donika: That's the first thing I thought.   Annie: Love it.   Donika: Just like gold, just thin gold chains, thick gold chains.   Melissa: I'm going to go with that, then, and say an infinite sneaker budget.   Lito: Yes. Oh, I want a shoe room. (55:50) That'd be awesome.   Melissa: We need two shoe rooms in this house, or like one. Or we just need to have a whole living room that's just for shoes.   Donika: I just like there's just like one closet that's just like for shoes. Like that's what we need.   Lito: That's great.   Donika: Yeah, but it's actually a room. Yes. With like a sorting system, it's like computer coded.   Annie: Soft lighting. That's our show.   Annie & Lito: Thanks for listening.   Lito: We'll be back next week with our guests Yiyun Li and Edmund White.   Annie: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendsPodcast.   Lito: Don't forget to reach out and tell us about the love affair of you and your LitFriend.   Annie: I'm Annie Liontas.   Lito: And I'm Lito Velázquez. Thank you to our production squad. Our show is edited by Justin Hamilton.   Annie: Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.   Lito: Lizette Saldana is our marketing director.   Annie: Our theme song was written and produced by Robert Maresca.   Lito: And special thanks to our show producer, Toula Nuñez.   Annie: This was LitFriends, Episode Three.    

Join co-hosts Annie Liontas and Lito Velázquez in conversation with LitFriends Lucy Corin & Deb Olin Unferth about their travels in the Sahara, ancient chickens, disappointments, true love, and why great books are so necessary. Our next episode will feature Melissa Febos & Donika Kelly, out December 22, 2023.   Links Libsyn Blog www.annieliontas.com www.litovelazquez.com https://www.lucycorin.com https://debolinunferth.com LitFriends LinkTree LitFriends Insta LitFriends Facebook   Transcript Annie Lito (00:00.118) Welcome to Lit Friends! Hey Lit Friends!   Lito: Welcome to the show.    Annie: Today we're speaking with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth, great writers, thinkers, and LitFriend besties.    Lito:  About chickens, the Sahara, and bad reviews.    Annie: So grab your bestie   Annie & Lito: And get ready to get lit!   Lito: You know those like stones that you can get when you're on like a trip to like Tennessee somewhere or something, they're like worry stones? Like people used to like worry them with their thumb or something whenever they had a problem and it would like supposedly calm you down. Well, it's not quite the same thing, but I love how Deb describes her and Lucy's relationship is like, “worry a problem with me.” Like let's, let's cut this gem from all the angles and really like rub it down to its essential context and meaning and understanding. And I think essentially that's what like writers, great writers, offer the world. They've worked through a problem and they have answers. There's not one answer, there's not a resolution to it, but the answers that lead to better, more better questions.    Annie: Yeah, and there's something so special about them because they're, worry tends to be something we do in isolation, almost kind of worrying ourselves into the ground.   Lito: Right. Annie: But they're doing it together in collaboration.    Lito: It's a collaborative worry. Yes, I love that.    Annie: A less lonely worrying.    Lito: It's a less lonely place to think through these things. And the intimacy between them is so special. The way I think they just weave in and out of their lives with each other, even though they're far away from each other.   I think there's a romantic notion that you're tuned into about Lucy and Deb's trip to the desert. Do you want to say something about that? There's a metaphor in it that you really love, right?    Annie: (1:52) Yeah. Well, so I remember when we first talked about doing this podcast and invited them, we were at a bar at AWP, the writer's conference. And they were like, oh, this is perfect. We just went to the Sahara together. And I was like, what? You writers just decided to take a trip together through the desert? And they said, yeah, it was perfect. And they have adorable photos, which we of course are going to share with the world. Um, but it felt like such a, I mean, the fact that they would go on that kind of adventure together and didn't really plan ahead, I think it was just Deb saying, I really want to go to the desert. And Lucy saying, sure, let's go. Which feels very much a kind of metonym of their friendship in some ways.    Lito: Absolutely.    Annie: (2:42) Yeah. That they wandered these spaces together. They come back to art, right? Art is a way for them to recreate themselves and recreate their friendship. And they're doing such different things on the page.    Lito:  Oh yeah, no, they're very different writers but they do share a curiosity that's unique I think in their friendship, then unique to them.    Annie: Yeah and a kind of rigorousness and a love for the word.    Lito: (3:10) Oh and a love for thinking and reading the world in every capacity.    Annie: Tell me about your friendship with Lucy because you're quite close.   Lito: I was at UC Davis before it was an MFA program. It was just a Master's. After undergrad, I went to the master's program because I wasn't sure if I wanted to be an academic or do the studio option and get an MFA. I loved how Lucy and the other professors there, Pam Houston, Yiyun Li, showed us the different ways to be a writer. They couldn't be more different, the three of them. And, I particularly was drawn to Lucy because of her sense of art and play and how those things interact.    Lito: (03:59) And here was someone that was extremely cerebral, extremely intelligent, thinking through every aspect of existence. And yet it was all done through the idea of play and experimentation, but not experimentation in that sort of like negative way that we think of experimentation, which is to say writing that doesn't work, but experimentation in the sense of innovation. And. Lucy brought out my sense of play. I got it right away, what she was going for, that there is an intellectual pleasure to the work of reading and writing that people in the world respond to, but don't often articulate. Lucy's able to articulate it, and I admire her forever for that.    Lito: (4:52) And perhaps I'm not speaking about our friendship, but it comes from a place of deep admiration for the work that she does and the way she approaches life. You have a special relationship with Deb. I would love to hear more about that.    Annie: (5:04) Yeah, I think I've been fangirling over Deb for years. Deb is such a special person. I mean, she's incredibly innovative and has this agility on the page, like almost no other writer I know. Also quite playful, but I love most her humanity. Deb is a vegan who, in Barn 8, brings such life to chickens in a way that we as humans rarely consider. There's an amazing scene which she's like with a chicken 2000 years into the future. Also, I know Deb through my work with Pen City, her writing workshop with incarcerated writers at the Connally Unit, a maximum security penitentiary in Southern Texas.   Lito: How does that work? Is it all by letter or do you go there?    Annie: (5:58) Well, the primary program, you know, the workshop that Deb teaches is on site, and it's certified. So students are getting, the incarcerated writers, are getting now college credit because it's an accredited program. So Deb will be on site and work with them directly. And those of us who volunteer as mentors, the program has evolved a little bit since then, (06:22) but it's kind of a pen pal situation. So I had a chance to work with a number of writers, some who had been there for years and years. And a lot of folks are writing auto-fiction or fiction that's deeply inspired by the places they've lived and their experiences. It's such a special program, it's such a special experience. And what I saw from Deb was just this absolute fierceness. You know, like Deb can appear to be fragile in some ways (06:53.216), and it's her humanity, but actually there's this solid steel core to Deb, and it's about fortitude and a kind of moral alignment that says, we need to do better.    Lito: We have this weird connotation with the word fragile that it's somehow bad, but actually, what it means is that someone's vulnerable. And to me, there is no greater superpower than vulnerability, especially with art, and especially in artwork that is like what she does at the penitentiary. But, can I ask a question?    Annie:  Sure.   Lito: Why is it so special working with incarcerated folks?    Annie: (7:27) Oh, that's a great question. I mean, we need its own podcast to answer it.   Lito: Of course, but just sort of the...    Annie:  I think my personal experience with it is that so many incarcerated writers have been disenfranchised on all levels of identity and experience. Voting rights, decent food, accommodations, mental health, physical, you know, physical well-being. And we can't solve all those problems necessarily, at least all at once, and it's an up, it's a constant battle. But nothing to me offers or recognizes a person's humanity like saying, "tell us your story. Tell us what's on your mind. We are here to hear you and listen."  And those stories and they do come out, you know, there have been other programs that have done this kind of work, they get out in the world and there's, we're bridging this gap of people we have almost entirely forgotten out of absolute choice.  (8:27) And Deb is doing that work, really, I mean she's been doing that work for a long time and finally got some recognition for it, but Deb does it because she's committed.   Lito: That is really powerful. Tell us your story. Tell us your story, Lit Fam. Tell us your story. Find us in all your social media @LitFriendsPodcast or email us at LitFriendsPodcast@gmail.com   Annie: We will read all your stories. We'll be right back with Lucy and   Deb.   Lito: (09:00) And now, our interview with Lucy Corrin and Deb. Lucy Corin is the author of two short story collections, 100 Apocalypses and Other Apocalypses and The Entire Predicament, and two novels, Everyday Psychokillers and The Swank Hotel. In addition to winning the Rome Prize, Lucy was awarded a fellowship in literature from the NEA. She is a 2023 Guggenheim Fellow and a professor of English in the MFA program at UC Davis.    Annie:  Deb Olin-Unferth is the author of six books, including Barn 8, and her memoir, Revolution: The Year I Fell in Love and Went to Join the War, which was a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award. Deb is an associate professor in creative writing at the University of Texas at Austin. She founded and runs Pen City Writers, a two-year creative writing certificate program at Connally, a maximum security prison in southern Texas. For this work, she was awarded the 2017 Texas Governor's Criminal Justice Service Award.   Lito: (09:58) Annie and I thought this up a year ago, and we were talking about what is special about literary friendships and how writing gets made, not as we all think, totally solitary in our rooms alone, but we have conversations, at least I think this way. They're part of long conversations with our friends, our literary friends and living and dead, and you know, all times, in all times of history.   But the idea here is that we get to talk to our literary friends and people we admire and writers who are close friends with each other and friendships in which literature plays a large role.   Annie: (10:37) Yeah, and I'll just add that when we first floated the idea of this podcast, you know, your names came up immediately. We're so in awe of you as people and practitioners and literary citizens, and we love your literary friendship. I mean, I really hold it dear as one of the best that I know of personally.    Lucy, I think of you as, you know, this craftsperson of invention who's always trying to undo what's been done and who's such an amazing mentor to emerging writers. And Deb, you know, I'm always returning to your work to see the world in a new way, to see something I might have missed. And I just, I'm so moved by your generosity in your work and in your life's work with Penn City and elsewhere, which I'm sure we'll have a chance to talk more about.   Annie: (11:30) But I think I recall the first day I realized how close the two of you were when Deb told me that you all were taking a trip to the Sahara. And I was like, oh, of course, like, of course, they're going to have desert adventures together. Like, this makes so much sense. So I hope we'll, you know, we'll talk more about that too.    Annie (11:53) But we're so grateful to have you here and to have you in our lives. And we're going to ask you some questions to get to know a little bit more about you.    Deb:  Sounds great.    Lucy: Thanks.    Deb: It's great to be here. It's really great to see everybody.    Lito: Thank you so much for being here. Deb, will you tell us about Lucy?   Deb: (12:16) I mean, Lucy's just one of my very favorite people. And I feel like our friendship just started really slowly and just kind of grew over a period of many years. And some of the things that I love about Lucy is she is, well, of course, she's a brilliant genius writer. Like, I mean, no one writes weird like Lucy writes weird and no one writes like more emotionally, and more inventively and some of her books are some of my favorite books that have ever been written. Especially her last two books I think have just been such just major literary accomplishments and I just hold them so dear.    (13:05) And as a friend some things that I really love about her is that she will worry a problem with me that's just bugging me about like literary culture or about writing or about, you know, just it could be anything about aesthetics at all. And then she'll literally talk to me about it for like five or six days straight without stopping. Like we'll just constantly, dinner after dinner, like, you know, if we're on a trip together, just like all day, like I'll wake up in the morning and I'll be like, here's another piece of that pie. And then she'll say, oh, and I was thinking, and then we'll like go off and work and then we'll come back at lunch and be like, "and furthermore," you know? And by the end, I remember at one point we were doing this and she said, this is a very interesting essay you're writing. And of course, like it wasn't an essay at all, but it was just like a way of thinking about the way that we were talking.   (14:06) And then she is hilarious and delightful and just like so warm. I don't know, I just love her to pieces. She's just one of my favorite people in the whole world. I could say more, but I'll stop right there for a minute.    Annie: Lucy, tell us about Deb.    Lucy: (14:24) Yeah, I mean, Deb, I mean, the first thing, I mean, the first thing you'll notice is that Deb is sort of effortlessly enthusiastic about the things that she cares about. And that's at the core of the way that she moves through the world and the way that she encounters people and the way that she encounters books.   (14:44) I'm more reserved, so I'll just preface what I'm going to say by saying that like, my tone might not betray my true enthusiasms, but I'll try to list some of the things that I think are special and extraordinary about my friend Deb.   One is that there's this conversation that never stops between the way that she's thinking about her own work and the way that she's thinking about the state of the world and the way that she's thinking about the very specific encounters that she's having in daily life. And so like moving through a conversation with Deb or moving through a period of time with Deb in the world, those things are always in flux and in conversation. So it's a really wonderful mind space to be in, to be in her presence.   (15:35) The other thing is that she's like the most truly ethical person that I am close to and in the sense that like she thinks really hard about every move she makes.   The comparison I would make is like you know Deb is like at the core like, the first thing you might notice about Deb's work is that she's a stylist, that she works sentence by sentence and that she always does. But then the other thing she does is that she's always thinking hard about the world and the work, that it never stays purely a love of the sentence. The love of the sentence is part of the love of trying to understand the relationship between words and the world.    (16:15) And, and they're both an ethics. I think it's an ethics of aesthetics and an ethics of trying to be alive in as decent way as you can manage. And so those things feed into the friendship where she's one of the people who I know will tell me what she really thinks about something because we can have a baseline of trust where then you can talk about things that are either dangerous or you might have different ideas about things or you may have conflict.    (16:47) But because of my sense of who she is as a person, and also who she is with me, we can have challenging conversations about what's right about how to behave and what's right about how to write. And that also means that when the other parts of friendship, which are just like outside of literature, but always connected, which, you know, about your own, you know, your other friendships, your, the rest of your life, your job, your family, things like that, that you wanna talk about with your friends. Yeah, I don't know anybody better to sort through those things than Deb.    And it's in part because we're writers, and you can't separate out the questions that you're having about the other parts of your life from who you're trying to be as a writer. And that's always built into the conversation.   Annie: (17:40) I knew we asked you here for a reason.   Lito: We'll be right back.    Lito (17:58) Back to the show.    Annie: I'm hearing you, you know, you're both, you're sort of really seeing one another, which is really lovely. You know, you're, Deb, you're talking about Lucy wearing a problem with you, which I think conveys a kind of strength and... Of course, like I'm quite familiar with Deb's like strong moral anchors. I think we all are and truly respect, but I'm just wondering, what do you most admire about your friend? What do you think they give to the world in light of this portrait that you've given us?   Deb: (18:28) Lucy is a very careful thinker, and she's incredibly fair. And I've just seen her act, just behave that way and write that way for so many years and it just the quality of it always surprises me.  Like I mean, there was a writer, most recently there was a writer who's been cancelled, who we have spent an enormous amount of time talking about and trying to figure out just exactly what was going on there. And I felt like Lucy had insights into what had happened and what it was like on his end and what about his culture could have influenced what happened. Just all of these things that were.   (19:36.202) It was so insightful and I felt like there's no way that I could have moved that moved forward that many steps in my understanding of what had happened. And in my own like how I was going to approach what had happened. Like there's no way I could have done that without that just constant just really careful thought and really fair thought. Just like trying to deeply understand. Like Lucy has an emotional intelligence that is just completely unparalleled. That's one thing I really love about her.    Another thing is that she's like up for anything. Like when I asked her to go to the Sahara with me, I mean, she said yes in like, it was like not even 12 seconds. It was like 3 seconds, I think, that she was like, yeah.   Annie: You need a friend who is just gonna go to the Sahara.    Lucy: Deb, I don't even know if you actually invited me. The way I remember it is that you said something like, Lucy, no one will go to the Sahara with me. And I said, I would go to the Sahara with you.   Lito: That is lovely.   Lucy: (20:53) It's in Africa, right?    Lito:  Was there something specific about the Sahara that you need to go over for?   Deb:  Yeah, I mean, there was. It's a book I'm still working on, hopefully finishing soon. But it's mostly it's like...I just always wanted to go to the Sahara. My whole life, I wanted to go to Morocco, I wanted to go to the Sahara, I wanted to be surrounded by just sand and one line. You look in 360 degrees and you just see one line. I just wanted to see what that was like so badly, stripping everything out, coming down to just that one element of blue and beige. I just wanted that so much. And I wanted to know that it just went on and on and on and on.   (21:48) Yeah, and you know, people talk a big talk, but most people would not go. And so at one point I was just kind of rallying, asking everyone. And then Lucy happened to be in town and I just mentioned to her that this is happening. And then she said, yeah, and then we went for like a long time. Like we went to Morocco for like over three weeks. Like we went for like a month.    Lucy:  A month.    Deb: Yeah, crazy. But she's always like that. Like whatever I want to do, she's just up for it. I mean, and she called me up and she's like, hey, we want to come to Austin and like, go to this place that's two hours from Austin where you can see five million bats, right? Five million bats? Or was it more? Was it like 20 million?    Lucy:  That's right.    Deb: It was like 20 million bats and a lot of them are baby bats. It's like mama bats and baby bats.     Lucy: Yeah, like it's more when there's the babies.   Deb: (22:46) And yeah, and you were like, I want to come with them as the babies. Yeah, we like went and she just like came and Andrea came, and it was just absolutely beautiful.    Lucy: Well, you were just right for that adventure. I knew you would want to see some bats.    Lucy: Well, I could I could say a couple of more things about what Deb gives the world.    Annie: Sure. Love it.    Lucy: So some of the things that Deb gives the world and though when I listen to you talking about me, I realized why these things are so important to me, is that you have a very steady sense of who you are and a kind of confidence in your instincts. That I know that some of the ways that I worry things through are really productive and some of them are just an ability to see why I could be wrong all the time, and that can stymie me.    (23:48) And one of the things that I love about you and the model that you provide for me in my life is an ability to understand what your truth is and not be afraid to hold onto it while you're thinking about other people's perspectives, that you're able to really tell the difference between the way that other people think about things and the way that you do.   And it doesn't mean that you don't rethink things, you constantly are, but when you have a conviction, you don't have a problem with having a conviction. And I admire it enormously. And I think it allows you to have a kind of openness to the world and an openness to people who are various and different and will challenge you and will show you new things because you have that sense that you're not gonna lose yourself in the wind.    Deb: Mmm. That's really nice.   Lito: I am in awe of everything you've said about each other. And it makes me think about how you first met each other. Can you tell us that story? And why did you keep coming back? What was the person like when you first met? And why did you keep coming back to each other? Do you want to tell Lucy?     Lucy: Yeah, I'll start and you can add what I'm missing and... (25:06) tell a different origin story if you want. But I think that what we might've come to for our origin story is that it was one of the, one of the early &Now Festivals. And the &Now Festival is really great.   Lito: Could you say what that is? Yeah, say a little bit about what that is.   Luch: Oh, it's a literary conference that was started to focus on small press and more innovative—is the term that they used at the time anyhow—innovative writing as a kind of response to the market-driven culture of AWP and to try to get people who are working more experimentally or more like on the edge of literary culture less mainstream and give them a place to come together and have conversations about writing and share their work.   So it was one of the early ones of those. But I think it was, I think we figured out that there were like, yeah, there were three women. It was me, you, and Shelley Jackson. But it was, there were not that many women at this conference at the time. And we were, and I think we were noting, noting our solidarity. Yeah. And that, that's what. That's like some of the first images.   But I knew we were like aware of each other because in some ways we have tended to be up for the same jobs—Deb gets them—up for the same prizes—Deb gets them first, I'll get them later. And so I see her as somebody who's traveling through the literary world in ways that are... I mean, we're very different writers, but as people... You know what I mean? But I still... We still actually...come from a lot of the same literary roots. And so it makes sense that there's something of each other in the work that makes us appeal to overlapping parts of the literary world.   Deb: Yeah, I definitely think that there was in our origins, not only do we come from the same sort of influences, and just things that we admired and stuff, but I also feel like (27:28.018) a lot of our early work would have appealed more easily to the exact same people. As we've gotten older, our work isn't quite as similar. We're a little more different than we used to be. But there's still enough there that, you know, you can see a lot of the same people admiring or liking it.   But I was remembering that first time that we met, you playing pool. And we were, so we were like at a bar and you were like, and you were playing pool, and you had like just had a book out with FSG, I think, or something. I don't know if I even had—   Lucy: FC2. Very different.   Deb: FC2. That's right. FC2. And the FC2 editor was there. And I don't think I even had a book out. I don't remember what year this was. But I don't think I had any kind of book out. All I had was I had nothing, you know. And I was just so in awe of FC2 and the editor there, and you there, and like you could play pool, and I can't play pool at all. And it was just, it was—   Annie: Lucy's so cool. Yeah, she was cool. She was cool. And Shelly Jackson was cool. And it was like all the cool people were there and I got to be there, and it was great.   And then, yeah, and then I think how it continued, I don't know how it continued, we just kind of kept running into each other and just slowly it built up into a really deep friendship. Like at some point you would come through town and stay with me.   (29:25.782) And we moved, we both moved around a lot. So for a while there, so we kind of kept running into each other in different places. We've never lived in the same place.   Lucy: No, never.   Lito: How have you managed that then? Is it always phone or is it texting, phone calls?   Lucy: Well, we'll go through a spate of  texting.   Deb: Yeah, we do both. I think I like to talk on the phone.   Lucy: Yeah, I will talk on the phone for Deb.   Annie: The mark of a true friendship.   Lito: (30:01) Time for a break.   Annie Lito (30:12.43) We're talking with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth.   Lito: How has literature shaped your friendship then? Despite being cool. What kind of books, movies, art do you love to discuss? You can name names. What do you love talking about?   Deb: Well, I remember the moment with Donald Barthelme.   Lucy: That was what I was gonna say.   Deb: No, you go ahead.   Lucy: Well, why don't?   Deb: Oh, okay, you can tell it.   Lucy: I mean, I'll tell part and then you can tell part. It's not that elaborate, but we were, one of the things that Deb and I do is find a pretty place, rent a space, and go work together. And one time we were doing that in Mendocino and Deb was in the late stages of drafting Barn 8 and really thinking about the ancient chickens and the chickens in an ancient space. And we went for a walk in one of those very ferny forests, and Deb was thinking about the chickens and among the giant ferns. And I don't know how it happened, but Deb said something with a rhythm. And we both said to each other the exact line from Donald Barthelme's "The School" that has that rhythm.   (31:34) Is that how you remember it though? You have to tell me if that's how you remember it.   Deb: That's exactly how I remember it. Yeah. And then we like said a few more lines. Like we knew even...    Lito: You remember the line now?   Lucy: I mean, I don't... You do. If you said it, I could do it. I'm just... I was thinking before this, I'm like, oh God, I should go look up the line because I'm not going to get it right, like under pressure. It was just in the moment. It came so naturally.   Deb: It was one of those lines that goes... (32:03) Da da da-da da, da da da-da-da. There's a little parenthetical, it's not really in parentheses in the story, but it might be a little dash mark. But it has, it's something like, "I told them that they should not be afraid, although I am often afraid." I think it was that one.   Deb: I am often afraid. Yeah. And then it was like, we just both remembered a whole bunch of lines like from the end, because the ending of that story is so amazing. And it's, so the fact that we had both unconsciously memorized it and could just like.   And it was something about just like walking under those giant trees and having this weekend together. And like we're like marching along, like calling out lines from Donald Barthelme. And it just felt really like pure and deep.   Annie: It's I mean, I can't imagine anything sounding more like true love than spontaneously reciting a line in unison from Barthelme. And, you know, you both are talking about how your work really converged at the start and that there are some new divergences and I think of you both as so distinct you know on and off the page. There's like the ferociousness of the pros and an eye towards cultural criticism and I always think of you as writing ahead of your time. So I'm just wondering how would you describe your lit friends work to someone, and is there something even after all this time that surprises you about their writing or their voice?   Lucy: I mean, what surprised me recently about Deb's voice is its elasticity. I came to love the work through the short stories and the micros. And those have such a distinct, wry kind of distance. They sort of float a little separate from the world, and they float a little separate from the page.   (34:10) And they have a kind of, they have a very distinct attitude and tone, even if the pieces are different from each other, like as a unit. And that's just really different than the voice that you get in a book like Barn 8 that moves through a lot of different narrators, but that also has just a softer relationship with the world. Like it's a little more blends with the world as you know, it doesn't stay as distant. And I didn't know that until later.   Vacation is also really stark and sort of like has that distinctiveness from the world. And so watching Deb move into, you know, in some ways like just more realistic, more realistic writing that's still voice-centered and that still is music centered was a recent surprising thing for me.   But I'm also really excited about what I've read in the book that in the new book because I think that new book is sort of the pieces that the bits that I've read from it are they're marking a territory that's sort of right down the middle of the aesthetic poles that Deb's work has already hit I mean the other thing is that you know Deb does all the genres. All of the prose genres. Every book sort of is taking on it is taking on a genre And the next one is doing that too, but with content in a way that others have been taking on new genres and form. And so...    Lito: I love that. And I like that it's related to the music of the pros and sound. I feel like musicians do that a lot, right? There's some musicians that every album is a new genre or totally different sound. And then there's artists who do the same thing over and over again. We love both those things. Sorry, so Deb...   Deb: So I love how complicated Lucy can get with just an image or an idea. I just feel like no one can do it the way that she can do it. And my like her last in her last book, which I love so much, we're just brought through all these different places and each one is sort of (36:31.29) dragging behind it, everything that came before, so that you can just feel all of this like, pressure of like the past and of the situations and like even like a word will resonate. Like you'll bring like, there's like a word on maybe page like 82 that you encountered on like page 20 that like the word meant so much on page 20 that it like really, you can really feel its power when it comes on page 80.   And you feel the constant like shifting of meaning and just like the way that the prose is bringing so much more and like it's like reinterpreting that word again and again and again, just like the deeper that you go, like whatever the word is be it you know house or home or stair or um you know sex, whatever it is, it's like constantly shifting. (37:40.952) And that's just part of like who Lucy is, is this like worrying of a problem or worrying of a word and like carrying it forward. And so yeah, so like in that last book, it just was such a big accomplishment. And I felt like it was like her best work yet.   Lucy: So I will say, try and say something a little bit more specific, then. (38:09) Like I guess in the sort of 10 stories that I teach as often as possible in part because I get bored so easily that I need to teach stories that I can return to that often and still feel like I'm reading something that is new to me is the title story from Wait Till You See Me Dance and that story is a really amazing combination of methodical in its execution, which sounds really dull.   But what it does is sort of toss one ball in the air and then toss another ball in the air and then toss another ball in the air. And then, you know, the balls move, but you know, the balls are brightly colored and they're handled by a master juggler. So it's methodical, but it's joyful and hilarious. And then, and then, and you don't   And the other thing is that Deb's narrators are wicked and like they're wicked in the way that like… They are, they're willing to do and say the things that you secretly wish somebody would do and say. That's the same way that like, you know, in the great existential novels, you love and also worry about the protagonists, right? They're troubled, but their trouble allows them to speak truthfully because they can't help it. Or they can't help it when they're in the space of the short story. It's that like, you know, the stories are able to access—a story like this one and like many of Deb's—are able to access that really special space of narrator, of narration, where you get to speak, you get to speak in a whisper.   Annie: You get to speak in a whisper. That's beautiful, Lucy. You get to speak in a whisper.   Lito: We'll be right back.   Lito: (40:15) Welcome back.   Annie: I'm wondering about what this means, you know, how this crosses over to your own personal lives, right? Because of course, literary friendships, we're thinking about the work all of the time. But we're also, you know, when I think of my literary friendship with Lito, I think of him as like a compatriot and somebody who's really carrying me through the world sometimes. I'm wondering if there was for either of you, a hard time that you went through personally, professionally, you know, whether it's about publishing or just getting words on the page or something, you know, um, you know, family related or whatever, where you, um, you know, what it meant to have a literary friend nearby at that time.   Lucy: I mean that's the heart of it.   Deb: Yeah, I mean for sure.   Lucy: One happened last week and I'm sort of still in the middle of it where you know my literary mentor is aging and struggling and so that's painful for me and who gets that? Deb gets that.   The other one, the other big one for me was that the release of my last novel was really complicated. And it brought up a lot of, it intersected with a lot of the things going on in my family that are challenging and a lot of things that are going on in the literary world that are challenging. There were parts of that release that were really satisfying and joyful, and there were parts of it that were just devastatingly painful for me.   And, you know, Deb really helped me find my way through that. And it was a lot, like it was a lot of emotional contact and a lot of thinking through things really hard and a lot of being like, "wait, why do we do this? But remember, why do we do this?" And Deb was the person who could say, "no, you're a novelist." Like things that like I was doubting, Deb could tell me. And the other thing is that I would come closer to being able to believe those things because she could tell them to me.   Annie: Lucy, can you talk a little more about that? Like what did that? (42:27.126) What did that look like, right? Like you talked about resistance to phone calls, and you're not in the same place.   Lucy: It was phone. Right, it would be phone or it would be Zoom or it would be texting. And then, you know, when we would see each other that would be, we would reflect on those times in person even though that wasn't those immediate moments of support and coaching and, you know, wisdom.   Annie:  And that requires a kind of vulnerability, I think, that is hard to do in this industry, right? And I'm just wondering if that was new for you or if that was special to this friendship, right? Or like what allowed for that kind of openness on your part to be able to connect with Deb in that way?   Lucy: I mean, I think I was just really lucky that we've had, like even though we have really, I think, only noticed that we were close since that Morocco trip. Like that was a little bit of a leap of faith. Like, "oh my gosh, how well do I know this person and we're gonna travel together in like circumstances, and do we really know each other this way?" But the combination of the years that we've known each other in more of a warm acquaintance, occasional, great conversation kind of way towards being somebody that you, that you trust and believe and that you have that stuff built in.   And, you know, that over the years you've seen the choices that they've made in the literary world, the choices they've made in their career, when they, you know, everything from, you know, supporting, you know, being a small, being small press identified and championing certain kinds of books over other kinds of books. And like those, just like watching a person make choices for art that you think are in line with the writer that, watching her make choices in art that are in line with the writer that I wanna be in the world makes it so that when you come to something that is frightening, that's the kind of person you wanna talk to because she's done that thinking.   Deb: Yeah, I mean, I feel like there are like so many things that I could say about that. Like one thing is that the kind of time that I spend with Lucy is really different from the kind of time that I spend with most people. Like most people, (44:51) they come to town and I have dinner with them. Or I go to like AWP or whatever and we go out for dinner. Or maybe I spend like one night at their house like with their partner and kid or something, you know. But Lucy and I, we get together and we spend like four days or something all alone, just the two of us, you know, or a month or whatever. And we don't spend a ton of time with other people. And so there's, but then we also do that, but just like not very much.   And so there is something that just creates, like that's a really good mode for me. It's a, that's like the way that I make really deep friendships that are kind of like forever-people in my life. And I've always been like that. And so, but not a lot of people are willing to sort of do that with me. Like, I have so many acquaintances, I've got like a million, I feel like I could have dinner with someone just about any night, as long as it's only like once every few months or something, you know, but I don't have people who are willing to be this close to me, like spend that kind of time with me one-on-one. And the fact is like, they're not that many people that I really feel like doing that with.   And you know, every time Lucy and I do one of these, I just come away feeling like I thought about some really important things and I talked about some really important things and I saw some beautiful things because Lucy always makes sure that we're somewhere where we can see a lot of beauty. And so that just means so much to me. And it's like, and so for me it creates like a space where, Yeah, I can be honest and vulnerable, and I can also tell her, if I can tell her things that I don't tell other people, or I can be really honest with her if I feel like, if I'm giving her advice about something, I can just be honest about it. And so it's really, really nice.   (47:07) I mean, the other thing is like, we're so similar. Like we've made so many similar life choices. And we've talked about that. Lucy and I have talked about that. Like, you know, we both chose not to have kids. We live pretty, like we're both like kind of loners, even though we have partners. Like I think our partners are more like, they just kind of would, they would prefer that we.   I don't know, I shouldn't probably say anything, but I know that Matt would prefer if I was not quite as much of a loner as I am. Yeah, so I look at Lucy and I see the kind of person that I am, the kind of person I wanna be, so if I have a question, I mean, it happens.   Lucy mentioned a couple of things. I have... You know, she's had some pretty major, major things. I have like little things that happen all the time, and they just like bring me to tears.   Like there was this one moment during the pandemic when I was like driving across the country by myself. I was like in Marfa, and I was trying to get to California and I had like a toilet in the back seat. Remember when we were all doing that kind of thing?   Lucy: It was really amazing.   Deb: It was so crazy.   Lucy: But Deb, not everybody had a toilet in their back seat.   Annie: I know. I need that now.   Deb: It still comes in handy.   Annie: I'm sure.   Deb: (48:43) And I was in, and yeah, Lucy is amazing. She'll talk to me on the phone, but Lucy will do because I love to talk on the phone and I love to Zoom. Lucy does not. So she'll tell me in advance, okay, I will talk to you, but it's gonna be for like 20 minutes or I'm gonna have to get off like pretty soon.   But she Zoomed with me and Marfa and I just didn't realize how upset I was about this one rejection that I'd gotten. And it was a really small rejection, I don't know why it bothered me so much, but I just like started crying and like I was like way out in like so many miles from any so many hours from anyone I knew and you know the world was going to shit, and I'd gotten this like tiny rejection from a magazine like a little like I had it was the page was it was like a piece that was like a page long or something, and Lucy just like knew exactly why I I was so upset, and just was able to talk to me about what that meant to me. And just refocus me to like, "look, you don't have to write those. You don't have to be that writer. You don't have to do that." And it was so freeing to know that I didn't always have to be, I don't even know how to describe it, but it was meant a lot. And things like that happen all the time.   Annie: (50:15.265) That's such a wonderful model of mutual support.   Lucy: We'll be right back.   Annie: Hi Lit Fam. We hope you're enjoying our conversation with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth, and their love for the word, the world, and each other. If you love what we're doing here at LitFriends, please take a moment now  to follow, subscribe, rate, and review our podcasts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Just a few minutes of your time will help us so much to continue to bring you great conversations like this week after week.  Thank you for listening. Back to a conversation with Lucy Corin and Deb Olin Unferth.     Annie: I'm also aware that we're working in an industry that's a zero-sum construct. And, you know, Lucy, you were sort of joking earlier about... Deb winning all of the awards that you later got. But I am curious, like, what about competition between literary friends when we're living in a world with basically shrinking resources?   Lucy: I feel competition, but I don't really feel it with my literary friends. Does that make sense? Like, I'll feel it with my idea of somebody that I don't really know except for their literary profile, right? But when someone like Deb gets something, it makes the world seem right and true, right? And so that's not hard to bear, right? That's just a sign of a good thing in a world that you're afraid isn't so good.   Deb: I guess I feel like if Lucy gets something, then that raises the chances that I'm gonna get something. I'm gonna get the same thing. Because if we're kind of in the same, like we both published with Grey Wolf, we both have the same editor, so we've multiple times that we've been on these trips, we've both been working on books that were supposed to come out with Graywolf with Ethan. (52:16.3) You know, so I feel like if Lucy gets something, then the chances go up.   Like there was just, something just happened recently where Lucy was telling me that she had a little, like a column coming out with The Believer. And I was like, "oh my God, I didn't even know that they were back." I'm like, "man, I really wanna be in The Believer. Like, I can't believe like, you know, they're back and I'm not in them. I gotta be in it. I said that to Lucy on the phone. And then, like the very next day, Rita wrote me and said, "Hey, do you want to write something?"   And so I wrote to Lucy immediately. I was like, did you write to Rita? And she was like, "no, I really didn't." So it's like, we're in the same— Did you, Lucy?   Lucy: No, I didn't! Rita did that all by herself.   Lito: You put it out into the universe, Deb.   Annie: Lucy did it. Hot cut, Lucy did it!   Deb:  So we're like, we're like in the same, I feel a lot of the time like we're kind of in the same lane and so that really helps because like, I do have writer friends who are not in the same lane as me and maybe. Like I'm not as close, but maybe that would be, but if I was as close, maybe that would cause me more confusion. Like I would be like, you know, "geez, how can I get that too? Or it's hopeless, I'll never get that, you know? So I just don't do that thing," or something. So that's really comforting.   Lito: What are your obsessions?   Lucy: Well, I mean-   Lito: How do they show up on the page?   Lucy: I feel like it's so obvious with Deb that like, you know, Deb got obsessed with chickens, and there was a whole bunch of stuff about chickens. First there was a really smart, brilliant Harper's essay where she learned her stuff. And then there was the novel where she, you know, imagined out the chickens (54:19) to touch on everything, right?   Annie: Then there was a chicken a thousand years in advance.   Lucy: Right, and then there's a beautiful chicken art in the house, and there's, you know. And I'm sure that she's gotten way more chicken gifts than she knows what to do with. But then the Sahara, like, you know, she was obsessed with the Sahara and you'll see it in the next book. It's gonna be— It's not gonna be in a literal way, right? But it'll be like, you'll feel the sand, you'll feel that landscape.   So I don't know, like I feel like the obsessions show up in the books. I mean, are there, I mean, this is a question like, Deb, do you think you have obsessions that don't show up in your work? We both have really cute little black dogs.   Deb: (55:07) Oh, not really. I mean, but I do get obsessed. Like I just get so, so like obsessed in an unhealthy way. And then I just have to wait it out. I just have to like wait until I'm not obsessed anymore. And it's like an ongoing just I'm like, OK, here it comes. It's like sleeping over me. Like how many years of my life is going to be are going to be gone as a result of this?   So I'm always like so relieved when I'm not in that space. Like Lucy's obsession comes down to that, with her language, that she's like exploring one idea, like she'll take an idea and she like worries that over the course of a whole book and that she'll just it's like almost like a cubist approach. She'll be like approaching it from so many different standpoints. And that is like, I mean, Lucy is so smart and the way that she does that is just so genius. And so I feel like that's the thing that really keeps drawing me to her obsessions, that keeps bringing me back to that page to read her work again and again. And yeah, and that's how she is in person too.   Lito: Why do you write? What does it do for the world, if anything?   Lucy: (56:37) I know I had a little tiny throat clear, but I think it was because I'm still trying to figure it out because I feel like the answer is different in this world order than it was in earlier world orders. Like when I first answered those questions for myself when I was deciding to make these big life choices and say, "you know, fuck everything except for writing," like I was answering, I was answering that question a different way than I would now, but I don't quite have it to spit out right now, except that I do think it has something to do with a place where the world can be saved. Like, writing now is a place of respite from the rest of the world where you can still have all of these things that I always assumed were widely valued, that feel more and more narrowly valued. And so I write to be able to have that in my life and to be able to connect with the other people who share those kinds of values that are about careful thinking, that are about the glory of the imagination, that are about the sanctity of people having made things.   Annie: Lucy, I need that on my wall. I just need to hear that every day.   Deb: I mean, I feel like if I can think about it in terms of my reading life, that like art changes my mind all the time. Like that's the thing that teaches me. Like I remember when I was a kid, and I lived right near the Art Institute of Chicago, and I remember going in, and they had the Jacob Lawrence immigration panels, migration panels up there that was like a traveling exhibition. And I had none of that information. I did not know about the Great Migration. I just didn't know any of that. So I just remember walking from panel to panel and reading and studying it, (58:47.952) reading it and studying it and just like getting like just getting just it was like a It was such a revelation and I just learned so much and like changed my mind about so many things just in that moment that it was like I'll never forget that.   And I feel like I, I totally agree with Lucy that the reasons that I write now and the reasons that I read now are very different than they were like before, say 2015, or something. But that, that maybe it has its roots in that sort of Jacob Lawrence moment where, you know, just I read these things and it's, I like, I love sinking deep into books that are really changing my mind and like teaching me about the world in ways that I never could have imagined, and I love that so much and I… I don't know if I have that to offer, but I really try hard, you know. Like I tried that with the chicken book. I'm kind of trying that, I hope, in this book that I'm trying to finish and— ha finish!—that I'm trying to get through. And so I think that that's why I think that art is so important.   I don't know if that's truly why I write though. I feel like why I write is that I've always written, and it's like I love it so much. Like I just, sometimes I hate it, sometimes I hate it for like a whole year or whatever, but it's just, it's so much a core of who I am. (01:00:39) And I just, I can't imagine my life any other way. It's just it's just absolutely urgent to me.   Annie: Yeah, urgent. Yeah. I think we all feel that in some way.   Annie:(01:01:04.374) Thank you both for talking to us a little bit about your friendship and getting to know a little bit more about how you started and where you're at now. We're going to move into the lightning round.   Lito: Ooooo Lightning round.   Annie: (01:01:16) Deb, who were you in seventh grade? Who was I in seventh grade? In one sentence, oh my God, the pressure is on. I was unpopular and looked, my hair was exactly the same as it is now. And I wore very similar clothes.   Lucy: (01:01:44) I was a peer counselor, and so I was like the Don who held everybody's secrets.   Lito: Beautiful. Lucy.   Lucy: It saved me. Otherwise, I wouldn't have had a place in that world.   Annie: Makes so much sense.   Lito: Wow. Who or what broke your heart first, deepest?   Lucy: I mean, I would just say my mom.   Deb: I guess, then I have to say my dad.   Annie: Okay, which book is a good lit friend to you?   Deb: Can I say two? The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas by Gertrude Stein and The Known World by Edward P. Jones.   Annie: Excellent.   Lucy: My go-to is White Noise. Still. Sorry.   Lito: No need to apologize.   Lucy: Yep.   Annie Lito (01:02:27) Who would you want to be lit friends with from any point in history?   Lucy: For me it's Jane Bowles.   Deb: Oh, whoa. Good one. She would be maybe a little difficult. I was gonna say Gertrude Stein, then I was like, actually, she'd be a little difficult.   Lucy: What a jerk!   Deb: I think Zora Neale Hurston would be fun.   Lucy: Well, yeah, of course. For sure.   Annie: We were gonna ask who your lit frenemy from any time might be, but maybe you've already said.   Lucy: Oh, right. I accidentally said my lit frenemy instead of my lit friend.   Annie: Yeah.   Lucy: Mm-hmm.   Deb: (01:03:08) A frenemy from any time?   Annie: Any time. Yeah, it doesn't have to be Jonathan Franzen. I feel like most people will just be like Jonathan Franzen. But it could be any time in history.   Deb: I mean, if you're gonna go that route, then it would probably be, um, like...   Lito: Kierkegaard.   Deb: I don't know, maybe Nietzsche? If you're gonna go that route, if you're gonna go like, like existential philosophers.   Annie: (01:03:34) That's great.   Lito: That could be a podcast too.   Annie: Just like epic frenemy. The most epic frenemy.   Lito: (01:03:35)  Well, that's our show.   Annie & Lito: Thanks for listening.   Annie: We'll be back next week with our guests Melissa Febos and Donika Kelly.    Lito: Find us on all your socials @LitFriendspodcasts   Annie: And tell us about an adventure you've had with your Lit bestie. I'm Annie Liontas.   Lito: And I'm Lito Velazquez.   Annie: Thanks to our production squad. Our show was edited by Justin Hamilton.   Lito: Our logo was designed by Sam Schlenker.   Annie: Lisette Saldaña is our Marketing Director.   Lito: Our theme song was written and produced by Roberto Moresca.   Annie: And special thanks to our show producer Toula Nuñez.   Lito: This was Lit Friends, Episode 2.

Annie Murphy Paul is an acclaimed science writer. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, the Boston Globe, Scientific American, Slate, Time magazine, The Best American Science Writing, and other publications. Our conversation focuses on the subject of her latest book, The Extended Mind, which is about how human cognition relies on our bodies, other people, and the material world. I loved this book and was thrilled to ask Annie about how this line of thinking plays out in the context of our heavily digitized lives. Show notes Annie Murphy Paul @anniemurphypaul on Twitter The Extended Mind: The Power of Thinking Outside the Brain by Annie Murphy Paul The Cult of Personality Testing: How Personality Tests Are Leading Us to Miseducate Our Children, Mismanage Our Companies, and Misunderstand Ourselves by Annie Murphy Paul Origins: How the Nine Months Before Birth Shape the Rest of Our Lives by Annie Murphy Paul Book Notes: “The Extended Mind” by Jorge Arango Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Andy Clark David Chalmers Carol Dweck Apple Watch Interoception Robert Caro The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York by Robert Caro Miro Mural Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Jorge: Annie, welcome to the show. Annie: Thank you, Jorge. It's really great to be here. Jorge: Well, it's a real pleasure and an honor to have you. I recently read your newest book and I... like I wrote on my blog, I loved it. So, it's great to have you here to talk about it. Some folks might not be familiar with you and your work. How do you go about introducing yourself and what you do? About Annie Annie: You know, I usually say that I'm a science writer, but even as I say that, I feel like a little bit of an imposter. Because to me, a science writer is someone who writes about the mission to Mars, or the COVID 19 virus, or something. And I really only write about one particular kind of science, and that is the science of human behavior. If it has something to do with people, and how they act, and how they think, then I'm a hundred percent interested. But I don't write about other kinds of entities or report on other kinds of science. I'm exclusively really devoted to thinking and writing about human behavior. And in particular, human cognition. Learning and cognition are really my... that's my wheelhouse. Jorge: These are hugely important subjects. The Extended Mind is your third book, yes? Annie: It is. Jorge: And, the other two deal with cognition.... and I have to be frank, I have not read the other two. But just from looking at them, it seems like they deal with cognition at early stages of human development. Is that right? Annie: Well, my first book was about personality testing. It's called The Cult Of Personality, and it was a scientific critique and cultural history of personality testing. And that was very interesting to me. I found that topic interesting because I'm interested in why we are the way we are, how we think about the way we are and how that interacts with what society tells us we are and who we should be. And personality testing seemed to me like a really interesting example of society creating these categories, which people often embrace, you know? And after writing this book that was critical of personality tests, I heard from many people who love the Myers-Briggs personality tests, for example, and who felt that it made everything... made the whole world makes sense to them, made themselves legible to themselves and others in ways that hadn't been possible for them before. But I do see myself not just as reporting science and the findings of science, but often acting as a kind of social critic. And I really wanted people to stop and think about whether the categories of personality psychology were really an adequate way to describe the fullness and the richness of their humanity, you know? And then my second book was different from that. It was called Origins, and it was about the science of prenatal influences. And there, I was interested in making an intervention in the long-running nurture-nature debate. It seemed to me like there was, this nine-month period that didn't get enough attention as a wellspring of who we are and how we turn out in life because there's so much focus on the moment of conception when this genetic blueprint gets laid down and the moment of birth when nurture by the parents begins, conventionally speaking. But there were nine months in between those two events that actually turn out to be really consequential in shaping our future health and perhaps things like our future personality and how we handle stress and things like that. So, to me, those two books as different as they seem on the surface were really investigations into the same question, which is: what makes us the way we are. And I would even say that this latest book, The Extended Mind, is just a continuation of that question or that search for an answer to that question. In this case, I was interested in how we understand the question of intelligence and how we understand the activity of thinking and, you know, conventionally... again, this is where the social criticism comes in. Conventionally, we think of thinking as happening inside the brain. And I was very intrigued by the concept originally introduced by two philosophers that actually thinking happens out in the world. It happens throughout our bodies, you know? Below the neck. It happens in our physical surroundings, it happens in our interactions with other people. And that to think of thinking as happening only inside our heads is really limiting and constraining and also just simply an inaccurate picture of how thinking happens. Jorge: I would expect that there are people listening in who hear that we have this perception that thinking happens inside the brain and they go, "Well, yes! That's where it happens!" Right? Annie: Right. Jorge: Many of us were brought up with that impression. And as you're suggesting here, the work of particularly Andy Clark and David Chalmers, the philosophers you were referring to, points to there being more to that, right? The way that I understood it is it happens in concert between the nervous system, the body, our senses, and the environment around us. And other actors in the environment, yes? Where we think Annie: Yes. And I want to be clear to those who would be skeptical of this concept that the brain is still central to thinking. It's not that the brain is not the locus of thinking; it's just that it's not... the process of thinking, the argument goes, is not limited to the brain. And in fact, the brain is really orchestrating resources from outside itself, from the body, from the physical surroundings, from other people. And that that is a broader and more expansive view of the thinking process than imagining that it all happens in the brain. So the brain is still central, but I think we can change our notion of what role the brain plays: less a kind of workhorse that's doing all of the work itself and more of like an orchestra conductor that's bringing in resources from outside itself and coordinating them and assembling them into this dynamic process of thinking. Jorge: Yeah. I love that. The notion that it's not that the brain is driving the show, perhaps, but like it's orchestrating things. I like that way of thinking about it. The old distinction, the old way of looking at the way the mind works, if we might call it brain-centric, has led to designs for the world that we live in, right? And you get into several of those in the book. I'm wondering if you could talk a bit more about how that kind of brain-centric way of thinking about the mind has led to the various structural aspects of the world that we work and learn and play and interact in. Metaphors: the brain as computer Annie: Yes. Yeah, I do see evidence of that brain-centric view all over the place. Once you start noticing it, it's hard not to see. But you know, I just a moment ago we were talking about various metaphors for the brain and we understand the brain and it's working through metaphor. And one of the most common metaphors, and I'm sure your listeners have encountered it, is the brain as a computer. And that notion got its start in the cognitive revolution of the 20th century, and it's been very fruitful as a kind of paradigm for exploring the brain and inventing all the applications and technology that are so useful to us these days. But it is very limiting in its capacity to explain to ourselves what the brain is, what it does. I always like to say we're more like animals than we are like machines. You know, the brain is a biological organ. I mean, I know this is obvious, but we really can get very entranced in a way by this metaphor of "brain as computer." The brain is a biological organ that evolved to carry out tasks that are often very different from the tasks that we expect it to execute today. And so, our misunderstanding of what the brain is leads us, as you were saying, Jorge, to create these structures in society — in education and in the workplace, in our everyday lives — that really don't suit the reality of what the brain is. I mean, I'm thinking about how, for example, we expect ourselves to be productive. Whether that's in the workplace, or what we expect our students to do in school. You know, we often expect ourselves to sit still, don't move around, don't change the space where you're in. Don't talk to other people. Just sit there and kind of work until it's done. And that's how we expect ourselves to get serious thinking done. And that makes sense if the brain is a computer, you know? You feed it information and it processes the information, then it spits out the answer in this very linear fashion. But that's not at all how the brain works. Because the brain is so exquisitely sensitive to context, and that context can be the way our bodies are feeling and how they're moving, that context can be literally where we are situated and what we see and what we experience around us, and that context can be the social context: whether we're with other people, whether we're talking to them, how those conversations are unfolding — all those things have an incredibly powerful impact on how we think. And so, when we expect the brain to function like a computer, whether that's in the office or in the classroom, we're really underselling its actual powers — its actual genius — and we're cutting ourselves off from the wellsprings of our own intelligence, which is the fact that we are embodied creatures embedded in an environment and set in this network of relationships. So, it really... we're really kind of leaving a lot of potential intelligence on the table when we limit our idea of what the brain is in that way. Metaphors: the brain as muscle Jorge: There's another metaphor that you also discuss in the book, this idea of the brain as a muscle. Annie: Yes. Jorge: Which is a... because the idea of the brain as a computer that processes has some kind of input and then generates an output, I think that we can all relate to. But what is this notion of the brain as muscle and why is it wrong? Annie: Yeah. This is an interesting one because although it's so common to think of the brain as a computer, it's not like people have... well, this is... that was wrong. I was going to say, it's not like people are passionately defending the metaphor of brain as computer. But in fact, there are a lot of people in artificial intelligence and other areas that are quite attached to that idea. But it is also the case that there are many people who seem very attached to the idea of the brain as muscle. And this, too has a pretty long history, longer than the brain as computer, obviously. You can find tracks from the 19th century by medical authorities telling people that your brain is like a muscle and just like a physical muscle when you exercise it more, it gets stronger. So, there's a very long history of that idea. But more recently, it was really brought into the public consciousness by the work of the psychologist, Carol Dweck, who introduced this idea of the growth mindset. And the growth mindset is very popular and very beloved for many good reasons. I mean, Carol Dweck is a very accomplished scientist and I very much admire her and her work. And what appeals to people about the growth mindset and its metaphor of the brain as muscle is that it's a very hopeful message to give to a student or to an adult. You know, that intelligence is not a fixed quantity. It's actually something that you can grow, you can cultivate through effort and through practice. And of course, there's a lot to that. And there's a lot that's positive about the growth mindset. I do have some issues with that metaphor because again, it's a very brain-centric kind of metaphor. It focuses all of its firepower on the brain on the idea that exercising the brain is how we make it stronger. And I think in a way it limits people who are very attached to the growth mindset because if simply exercising the brain harder and harder isn't getting you what you want, there aren't many other options. And what I so enjoy about the theory of The Extended Mind is that it offers so many choices and options and avenues, you know? It may be that if sitting and thinking harder and harder is not working for you, it may be that you need to stand up and move around and maybe act out the problem that you're wrestling with. Or you may need to go outside and spend some time in nature, restoring your attention. Or you may need to engage in a social activity with another person, like telling them a story about what you're struggling with or engaging in a debate with them. And so, there are so many ways that we can draw on our environment and on our own bodies and on our own relationships to think better. And so that to me is what the theory of The Extended Mind adds to the conversation. Jorge: Yeah. What I'm hearing there is that the notion that intelligence can be grown is not wrong per se, it's that we've been limiting intelligence to just the one organ up here, right? Annie: Yes. And I do notice there's a wonderful new paper by Carol Dweck and some other researchers that's really explicitly recognizing this and saying that growth mindset needs to be practiced within an environment, a context, that supports actual growth and development. So, I think the idea that context is so important to our thinking is really, you know, it's having its moment, I hope. And I actually think the pandemic has played a role in that, you know? Because so many of us have spent the past 18 months as almost like brains in front of screens, and we've been cut off from many of the mental extensions that normally pre-pandemic would, in normal life, would have helped us with our thinking, like being able to move around and even commuting or traveling in ways that are stimulating and being in new places and interacting with people in person. In a lot of cases, we've been missing those things and we've felt the impact on our thinking, you know? We're not thinking as well as we would like to, and it's not for lack of working our brains hard, because we have been doing that. But that's not enough. We really need the support of those external resources that have been harder to access during the pandemic. Interacting in information environments Jorge: I wanted to ask you about that. The tagline of this show is that it's about how people organize information to get things done, and the notion there is that we are living... even before the pandemic, we were living in a society where so many of our interactions are moving from — let's call them real-world contexts — to contexts that we instantiate in these small glass rectangles we carry around in our pockets, right? And the glass rectangle, when compared to real life, is a relatively limited channel. Annie: Yeah. Jorge: And I'm wondering how awareness of our embodied intelligence can help us think better, act more soundly. I'm wondering if there are any lessons from that that could help us become more effective users of these digital systems that are currently going through these very narrow channels. Annie: Yeah, well, I think we do need to think carefully about how we use these devices because they really... they can't be beat, in terms of convenience and ease. And I think we've all experienced that during the pandemic, that actually all those meetings that we were going into the office for, or traveling across the country to meet people, they can happen online and they probably will continue to happen online more than they did before. I do want to urge people to be aware of what the trade-off is. You know, it is easy, it is convenient. It's... from my reading of the research, I have a real bias in favor of in-person interactions because the signal, as you... I think you used the word "signals"... you know, the signals that we're exchanging with other people as we talk, as we spend time in each other's presence, they're so much richer than when we are communicating with each other across the screen digitally. This is part of our brain-centric culture that we are so focused on simply the words that people say, like the actual information being conveyed in this very explicit sense, that that's what we focus on. And we feel like, "okay, well, that got the job done." You know, that interactive virtual meeting, that got the job done because we exchanged the appropriate words. But there's so much more going on when two people relate to each other in person. And I wouldn't want us to think that the sort of pale simulacrum of human interaction that can happen online-- I wouldn't want us to think that that can ever substitute for being together in person. And not just two people, but in particular, the power of a group of people getting together-- that is very hard to simulate online. So, I think you had asked, Jorge, about not just about the compromises we make in terms of our social interactions when we're online, but also this embodied aspect. You know, it's very easy when we're using our devices to think of ourselves as just a brain in a vat, a brain looking at a screen. When, as I've been saying, so much of our intelligence emerges from the fact that we are embodied, you know? And that's easy to forget when we're so in this head space of using our computers and our devices. And so one other thing I would say is just to... first of all, to take time to make sure that you're not on your devices all the time and that you do remember that you have a body and use it and tune into it and all those things. But also if it's possible, look for technology and look for applications that involve your body. And that there are applications and technologies like that, that don't require you to just be sort of like a face or a head in the screen, but that do involve the body to a greater degree. And we can make choices about, you know, which technologies we use in that sense. Jorge: Is one aspect of that getting greater awareness of how our bodies function? And I'm thinking of things like the Apple Watch, which I'm wearing, and this notion that all of a sudden my movements get quantified as this exercise ring that I either close or not, depending on how much I move my body during the day. Does that serve to bring us closer to our awareness? Or does it somehow build a distance by abstracting it out into a number that we're aiming for? Annie: Yeah, that's a super interesting question. I am not sure, actually. I mean, I think I'd be in favor of any technology that makes us more conscious of our bodies and more conscious of our movements, but then again, as you say, is there a cost in terms of moving away from the actual embodied experience of being a body and turning that into a number or, and then turning the number into a goal, you know? That you're either meeting or not meeting. I think there's definitely potential there for a kind of detachment from the body instead of tuning into the body. That's a really interesting question. I think we're living in a moment where so many of these things are unknown and unsettled and it's really... it's going to be a process of learning how these technologies affect us and how they affect us long-term you know? Which no one can answer except for in the long-term. Jorge: Right. The question came to mind as I was reading the book. And, just for folks who may not have read it, the book is divided into three parts. The first part has to do with thinking with the body. So that includes things like gestures. I came away with a new understanding of what... like I'm moving my hands right now, right? And I came away with an understanding of why I do that. The second part deals with thinking with environments, and the third with thinking with other people. And in the first part of the book that deals with thinking with the body, you covered this concept of interoception which in my notes, I put down as kind of like learning to listen to your gut. Annie: But not just your gut! Jorge: Well, no — colloquially, right? Annie: Yes, colloquially. Jorge: It's like, check in with your body. Are you feeling anxious? You know, are you feeling... and as someone who designs digital environments for a living, it made me wonder. It's like, is my work making people somehow fall out of tune with being able to listen to their bodies? And how might we move to create digital experiences that make better use of the full experience of being human, which is not constrained to these small rectangles that we tap, tap, tap? Right? Designing (dis)embodied experiences Annie: Yes. Well, it's a very powerful cultural current — and a very old one — to separate mind and body and to elevate mind above body and to believe that mind is kind of pure and cerebral and the body is irrational and unruly and ungovernable and has nothing to contribute to intelligent thought. Whereas I think the more we learn, the more scientists research the connections between mind and body, the more we see that that is not at all the case. And I think, in our culture that is so achievement-oriented, that's so much about getting things done, it's so easy. And I fall into this trap myself, in the middle of a busy hectic day, to be focused so much on the external world and all this information flowing in for us to process, and to forget about the fact that we have this internal world as well from which there's a constant flow of internal sensations and cues and signals that's always there, but we're not tuning into it. We don't take the time. We don't take the quiet space that we need to tune into that internal world. And what that means is that we're missing out on all the information and the wisdom and the accumulated experience that can really only be communicated to us through those internal signals because so much of what we know is not really accessible consciously. And the way that we become aware of this vast repository of patterns and regularities and experience that we do possess, the way we become aware of it, is through the body kind of tapping us on the shoulder or tugging on our sleeve with these internal cues and saying, "Hey! Pay attention to this!" Or, "this is what happened last time, and this is how it turned out." You know, all this kind of information that we have access to, but we're so used to pushing that away, and to believing that the body is actually a kind of a barrier to intelligent thought rather than a conduit to intelligent thought, you know? We think we have to sort of power through and like push away those annoying or inconvenient bodily sensations when really tuning into them would enrich our thinking so much. Jorge: Yeah, sometimes it's time to go for a walk or to take a nap. Right? Annie: Oh, it's always time to take a nap! I'm a big fan of naps. Annie's thinking environment Jorge: I want to ask you about your own processes and how working on this subject has changed the way that you approach your own work. In the book you describe the writing process of Robert Caro, who has written some amazing biographies. I remember reading the one about Robert Moses and having my mind blown at just how rich and the big that book is, right? Annie: Yes. Jorge: And, the way that you describe it in the book, these books that Caro writes are just have so much stuff in them that it's not something that you can hold in your "meat computer." Annie: Right. Jorge: So he has this corkboard in his office, this four-by-ten corkboard, where he kind of outlines the book. And I got the sense that his office is part of his writing apparatus-- but not just because it gives him a place that shields him from the elements, right? And I'm wondering about your own thinking and writing environment and if it has changed at all as a result of doing this work. Annie: Yeah, I write in the book that I don't think that I could have written this book, which was a very ambitious project that involves so, so many journal articles and books and interviews and things. So much information to synthesize and put together. I don't think that I could have pulled it off if I had not applied the various strategies that I write about in the book. So, it was a really kind of meta experience. But you mentioned Robert Caro and his process of laying out the ideas and themes in his book on this really big wall-sized cork board. And I love that example because of how he uses it. You know, he's able to walk along this cork board move in and move out, and physically navigate through this three-dimensional landscape of ideas that he's pulling together for each of his books. And to me, that's such a beautiful example of how when we remember what the brain evolved to do. And when we think about how we adapt this stone-age organ to the kind of tasks that we require of it today, we can see that it's really powerful to harness our natural and evolved strengths, which include physical navigation and spatial memory. When we can harness those in the service of these very complex cognitive activities that we undertake today, it just gives our ability to think this enormous boost. You know, as we were saying earlier, the brain evolved to do different things from what we expect it to do today. And two things that it evolved to do really effortlessly and easily and powerfully is manipulate physical objects and navigate, as I was saying, through a three-dimensional landscape. These are things that we're just naturally good at as human beings. And so, the more we can turn abstract ideas and information into physical objects that we can manipulate. And I'm thinking here about like Post-It notes that you can move around and redistribute at will. And the more we can turn ideas — abstract ideas and information — into a physical landscape that's big enough for us to bodily interact with, then the more we're harnessing those embodied resources that are a part of our sort of heritage as human beings. We don't get any of the benefits of those embodied resources when we try to do it all in our heads, you know? So, I do have a giant Caro-inspired cork board in my office. I do make profligate use of Post-It notes because there was just too much here to wrap my head around. And I really needed to externalize my thought. Scientists call it offloading cognition — cognitive offloading. I needed to offload those ideas, put them out into physical space, move them around, and move myself around in relation to them, in order to pull off this very challenging mental task of writing this book. Jorge: And what I'm hearing there is that there is something about the physical nature of that experience and the fact that your body is in that room, that matters here. Because there is software — thinking of like Miro or Mural — that simulates a whiteboard with sticky notes. What I'm getting out of it is that it's simulating the kind of aesthetics of the thing, but it's still constraining it within the glass rectangle, right? Annie: Yeah, that's interesting. I do think that software and other technological applications can learn from what we know about how humans think in embodied and environmentally embedded ways. Certainly, there are lessons there for people who are designing software, but I think you're right that such a program might sort of emulate the look of using Post It notes on a big corkboard, but it does lose some of the functionality just simply because it's not going to be as big as the format that I'm talking about. And it's not gonna involve that material and tactical kind of experience of literally moving things around, which I think offers its own enhancement to the thinking process. Jorge: Yeah, and surely that's what the folks who are researching things like augmented reality are really after, overlaying the information onto our physical environments. Closing Jorge: Well, this has been super insightful and, as I said, I love the book and I recommend it to everyone, but especially to people who are designing software and interactive experiences. It covers a subject matter that I think everyone in this field should be aware of. So where can folks follow up with you? Annie: So, I have a website. It's www.anniemurphypaul.com. I'm also really active on Twitter and I encourage people to find me there. My handle is @anniemurphypaul. Yeah, and I'd love to hear in particular from your listeners and from people who do this kind of work because I do think there are so many connections between designing — literally, designing the experience that someone has online — and The Extended Mind. I mean, I just think there's such an enormously potentially productive overlap between those two things, and I'd love to hear about their own thoughts. Jorge: Well, you've heard it, folks! Please reach out to Annie and let her know because this is important stuff. Thank you so much, Annie, for being on the show. Annie: Oh, thank you, Jorge. This has been fantastic. I've really enjoyed talking with you.

(這是比較早期錄的，如果有環境音還請多包涵XD 之後我會開始錄新的題材!) LOVE! wazzup! 是一首很有意涵跟能學習很多新東西的歌!! 希望大家會喜歡我的說明與介紹! Love! FB:https://www.facebook.com/dramaenglish... Music Vids: AAF :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDl9Z... MJ : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_D3V... [Verse 1] As he came into the window Was a sound of a crescendo He came into her apartment He left the bloodstains on the carpet She ran underneath the table He could see she was unable So she ran into the bedroom She was struck down, it was her doom [Pre-Chorus] Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? [Chorus] Annie, are you okay? Will you tell us that you're okay? There's a sound at the window Then he struck you — a crescendo, Annie He came into your apartment Left the bloodstains on the carpet And then you ran into the bedroom You were struck down It was your doom [Post-Chorus] Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? It was your doom Annie (Dag gone it) Annie are you okay? (Dag gone it-baby) Will you tell us that you're okay? (Dag gone it-baby) There's a sound at the window (Dag gone it-baby) Then he struck you, a crescendo Annie He came into your apartment, (Dag gone it) Left bloodstains on the carpet And then you ran into the bedroom You were struck down (Dag gone it) It was your doom Annie So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? [Refrain] You've been hit by— You've been hit by— A Smooth Criminal [Verse 2] So they came in to the outway It was Sunday, what a black day Every time I tried to find him There were no clues, they're behind him And they end up never knowing Who's the suspect or what to expect Mouth-to-mouth resuscitation Sounding heartbeats, intimidation [Pre-Chorus] Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? Annie, are you okay? Are you okay? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Annie, are you okay? So, Annie, are you okay? Are you okay, Annie? Powered by Firstory Hosting

Hello again! Today’s guest is Credit Repair Specialist and Co-Founder of the exciting new credit repair company in town... ReScore! Janna Fox and I will be discussing what you need to know about your credit as you enter into or go through divorce. We know it is honestly probably the last thing on your mind. Don't switch us off! You need this information. Your credit score affects many areas of your life as you separate and shift to a head of household status with your divorce. Everything affects your credit and your credit affects everything. (Or almost anyway!) You probably have the misconception that your house is the #1 asset in your divorce. Most people do. The truth is that your credit score is way more important and you need to know how and why to secure your financial future.RESOURCES:To find out more about all things credit from Janna Fox and Paige White, Co-Founders of ReScore or if you are interested in Divorce Coaching, please contact Annie@StartingOverStronger.com or visit www.StartingOverStronger.com.Can you keep the house? Find out more about what an RCS-D REALTOR does to protect you as you make this decision. www.AtHomewithAnnie.com.If you have ideas for topics in future episodes or to ask a question for a future ASK ME ANYTHING episode, please email Annie@StartingOverStronger.com. CLICKABLE RESOURCES:Your 50/30/20 Spending Plan GuideCredit Monitoring Made Easy Gratefully,Annie So glad you're here! Please find and follow us on Facebook, Instagram and on your favorite podcast player. Your 5-star ratings and positive reviews make all the difference as the growing podcast community seeks content that will inspire, entertain and educate them in their efforts toward real life transformation. Would you take just a moment to rate and review Starting Over Stronger? Here and on any platforms where you find us. THANKS! © SOS Divorce Survival & Recovery. Divorce Well. Live Well. Support the show (https://www.paypal.me/anniejallen)

Annie Bauer is a beautiful soul and business mentor for female entrepreneurs who I met during my business course with Dean Graziosi, Tony Robbins, and Jenna Kutcher! Her main passion is helping to lead female entrepreneurs and side hustlers to success in their careers. Molly: What would you say is the biggest obstacle facing women who are trying to start their business or side hustle? Annie: Self doubt and lack of confidence. Women have been conditioned and taught to play small. When it comes to running your own business, we have to learn how to have a bigger voice and to not be embarrassed to share that we have something (whether a skill set of physical product) that can help someone. This is tough not just for people in the beginning stages of business, but also for those who have been in business for years. Molly: What would you say to women who feel stuck in the traditional 9 to 5 and want to start their own business and leave those traditional confines? Annie: I want to help women set up a new model or system that doesn't include the 9 to 5. When we as women work in the 9 to 5 system, we often fine that we're sacrificing certain things, like being able to raise our children, for making money. My stance is that the 9 to 5 system isn't going to change anytime soon, so we need to go away and create our own system so that we can have more control over our destiny. Molly: I think a lot of these women who feel stuck in the 9 to 5, who might have ideas on businesses they want to start, don't because the idea of money stops them. What would you say to the women who feel like it takes a lot of money to start a business or a side hustle? Annie: That might have been true years ago, but with today's technology, you can start a side hustle with almost nothing. Molly: What are three steps women can take away right now if they are feeling paralyzed with confusion, indecision, or not having enough to make that start? Annie: The first thing, even if you don't have any followers, is to go set up an e-mail service provider and start talking to them! *My favorite is Flodesk and I cannot rave about it enough! Grab 50% off your subscription here! SNAG IT HERE!* The second thing is to figure out where your ideal clients hang out on social media and to get on there! Social media is free. Get on there and tell people who you are, what you do, and what problem you solve. The third thing is to set up a free zoom account. You can talk unlimited on one on one calls and you can start making those connections. Molly: Why should women act now to build a life that they love and not later? Annie: Now is always the best time. Get out of your head and get into action. Action leads to momentum. Time is your most precious asset. Taking action can be as simple as setting up a facebook page, or joining a group of like minded people; it can be just one small simple action. Molly: Can you tell our listeners what a mentor is and how they can help entrepreneurs in their business? Annie: So many people ask this. People say "why do I need a mentor, can't I just figure it out on my own?" But it goes back to what I said before, time is your most valuable asset. A really great mentor or coach will simplify and streamline things and get you where you need to go faster, with more clarity, and more purpose than you can get there on your own. Go to somebody who you feel is trusted person. Hire someone who is results and progress oriented. Hire someone who will help you save time and get there faster. Make sure you hire someone who is listening to YOU. What you want and your dreams. Molly: What is a membership community Annie: Membership communities are really unique. You pay a monthly free to be in the community but it's also a way to get advice, coaching, and direction so that you also have accountability and guidance along the way. With a membership community you also have the added benefit of all the other people in the group or community. Annie's Freebie: 5 ways to go from Stuck to Started

Dog trainers are commonly asked to help dog owners teach a dog to "potty" outside. Well, thanks to this crazy quarantine situation, we're not being asked the opposite question: How can I teach my dog to pee and poop inside? Annie interviews School For The Dogs' trainer Anna Ostroff, who has a dog who is a professional when it comes to peeing and pooping inside. Learn how to train a dog to have a potty spot inside, and how to put it on cue! Also: How socializing with people in face masks can help us thinks about dogs greeting each other in leash. Get our illustrated guide to house training when you sign up for our newsletter at AnnieGrossman.com/potty Learn more about School For The Dogs at SchoolForTheDogs.com. Make sure to also check out our 2018 episode all about house training! Products mentioned in this episode: http://FreshPatch.com http://DoggieLawn.com Partial transcript: (00:38): Hey everyone. We've been getting a lot of questions about how to train a dog to go inside. Usually dog trainers are asked for help training dogs to go outside, but due to this mass quarantine, people can't go outside with their dogs or don't want to go outside with their dogs. And suddenly this new problem presents itself. How do we train dogs to go inside for an expert opinion on this? I wanted to talk to our trainer, Anna Ostroff, who is one of my very good friends and just a wonderful trainer and person. But as often happens with me, I was kind of last minute on this. And so rather than arrange an interview with her in advance, I called her up with kind of a surprise interview. I think you're going to enjoy hearing about her dog ginger and how she trained ginger to do her business in the closet. (01:50): Annie: So this is a kamikaze interview cause I, I want to talk to you about teaching your dog to pee in that house recording right now. Is that okay? I can record you talking about how your dog pees in the house. People don’t normally call you up to ask you how you got your dog to pee in the house? Is this weird? (02:16): Anna: Well, you know, these are weird times. You never know these days. How are you? Cool. I'm doing okay. So, you want me to just like talk about how I trained Ginger? (02:36): Annie:To anyone listening, I should explain that you have a dog who's very sensitive to New York City among other things and well why don't you explain how it came to pass that she is an indoor pottier. I mean, the reason I want to talk about this is because so many people are asking this question right now because they don't want to, some of them can't go outside or feel like they shouldn't outside or whatever. The reason is there's an increasing amount of people trying to get their dog to go to the bathroom inside, which is unusual and unusual thing for a dog trainer to be asked about because usually it's the opposite. (Full transcript available at https://www.schoolforthedogs.com/podcast)

Big thanks to @Jon_MFD and @Christauff for the kind words of praise and entrusting me with another Headline spot Thursday at Preview DC - this time on Halloween! I was very happy to have the opportunity to play for 4 hours this night. I made sure all systems were go so I could play 'til close. I feel a lot better about playing hours on end to really work into the groove and be able to understand the people in the room. This allows me to then play more specifically to my audience, which I think is the most important thing one can do as a DJ. This set had a bit of a tinge of Halloween, but was mostly fed and directed by the energy in the air. I'm in full agreement with Seth Troxler, as he says in this interview with Annie Mac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVP_dnrH1mw Seth: Taking time, the patience of creating a journey for people to just really dance; I think that's the foundations of DJ Culture and Club Culture. Annie: So rather than getting lots and lots of immediate huge breakdowns and peaks and troughs, its about kind of getting lost in the music in a more abstract way. Seth: Yeah, a lot of DJs play for an hour, I play for seven. It's like making love, you know? I don't prefer quickies. It's like, we gonna sit you down... get comfortable. This is gonna be awhile. Mixed Live by Sneakers in the Dryer on 2019-10-31 for Preview DC at MilkBoy Arthouse in College Park, MD Claude Von Stroke ft. JAW - Le Fantome Foals - In Degrees (Purple Disco Machine Remix) Saison - Do You Locussolus - I Want It (Lindstrom & Prins Thomas Remix) Hot Toddy - In The Genes Session Victim - Make People Dance Hubbabubbaklubb - Mopedbart Chromeo - Juice (Purple Disco Machine Remix) Jkriv ft. Adeline - Yo Love (Club Mix) Discotron - The Beat Yuksek & Bertrand Bergelat - Icare (Extended Version) Drop Out Orchestra - Trees, Grass, and Stones Discotron - Cali's Party Big Miz - Straight Thru Cru Dusty Springfield - Spooky (Quinten 909 Remix) Chaka Khan - Like Sugar (Extended Mix) Parallel Dance Ensemble - Shopping Cart (Maxxi Soundsystem Remix) Crazy P - One True Light Claptone - Make Me Feel Black Loops & Innocent Soul - Wanna Feel It Shakedown - At Night (Purple Disco Machine Remix) Sylvester - You Make Me Feel (Mighty Real) (Michael Gray Remix) Oliver Dollar - Doin' Ya Thing Marie Davidson - Work It (Soulwax Remix) KiNK - RAW The Juan Maclean - Give Me Every Little Thing Psychemagik - Mink & Shoes (Dub Mix) Booka Shade - In White Rooms Metro Area - Miura Soul Clap - Moov To Tha Beat Mighty Mouse - The Spirit (Extended Mix) Storken - Lille Vals Deadmau5 ft. Rob Squire - Ghosts n' Stuff Justice - Phantom pt. II (Soulwax Remix) Kill The Noise - Hey You (LeCastleVania Remix) Todd Terje - Ragysh LCD Soundsystem - Drunk Girls (Holy Ghost! Remix) Angelo Ferreri - Izinque Kevin Yost & Peter Funk - Return to the Deep Discoslap - 2 Rock In The House Jkriv & The Disco Machine - Make It Hot Babert - Dance A Little Bit Closer Drop Out Orchestra - I Am A Fan Of The Fatback Band Monika - Secret in the Dark (Juan Maclean Remix) Rhye - The Fall (Maurice Fulton Remix) Ed Wizard & Disco Double Dee - Talkin' About Rayko - You Ought To Be Dancin' Crazy P - Clouds The Juan Maclean - Accusations https://campsite.bio/sneakersinthedryer

Writer and performer Annie Lanzillotto discusses the pleasure of wolfing food down and how the "feels like" temperature is measured. ABOUT THE GUEST:  Born and raised in the Westchester Square neighborhood of the Bronx of Barese heritage, Annie Lanzillotto is renowned memoirist, poet, and performance artist. She's the author of L IS FOR LION: AN ITALIAN BRONX BUTCH FREEDOM MEMOIR (SUNY Press), the books of poetry SCHISTSONG (Bordighera Press) and Hard Candy/Pitch Roll Yaw (Guernica Editions). She has received fellowships and performance commissions from New York Foundation For The Arts, Dancing In The Streets, Dixon Place, Franklin Furnace, The Rockefeller Foundation for shows including CONFESSIONS OF A BRONX TOMBOY: My Throwing Arm, This Useless Expertise, How to Wake Up a Marine in a Foxhole, and a’Schapett. More info at annielanzillotto.com. Catch Annie performing her one-person show Feed Time at City Lore in Manhattan on November 15 at 7:30pm. ABOUT THE HOST:  Neil Goldberg is an artist in NYC who makes work that The New York Times has described as “tender, moving and sad but also deeply funny.” His work is in the permanent collection of MoMA and other museums, he’s a Guggenheim Fellow, and teaches at the Yale School of Art. More information at neilgoldberg.com. ABOUT THE TITLE:  SHE'S A TALKER was the name of Neil’s first video project. “One night in the early 90s I was combing my roommate’s cat and found myself saying the words ‘She’s a talker.’ I wondered how many other other gay men in NYC might be doing the exact same thing at that very moment. With that, I set out on a project in which I videotaped over 80 gay men in their living room all over NYC, combing their cats and saying ‘She’s a talker.’” A similar spirit of NYC-centric curiosity and absurdity animates the podcast. CREDITS:  This series is made possible with generous support from Stillpoint Fund.  Producer: Devon Guinn  Creative Consultants: Stella Binion, Aaron Dalton, Molly Donahue  Assistant Producers: Itai Almor, Charlie Theobald  Editor: Andrew Litton  Visuals and Sounds: Joshua Graver  Theme Song: Jeff Hiller  Media: Justine Lee with help from Angela Liao and Alex Qiao  Thanks: Jennifer Callahan, Roger Kingsepp, Tod Lippy, Nick Rymer, Maddy Sinnock, Sue Simon, Shirin Mazdeyasna TRANSCRIPT: ANNIE LANZILLOTTO: In the Bronx we weren't poor. You're in the Bronx. My father was, working class, had his own business. There wasn't such big class distinctions. It was like Fiddler on the Roof class distinctions, like the butcher ate better. NEIL GOLDBERG: Right. ANNIE: We all had Raleigh Choppers. That was the best bicycle and really, most of us on the block could get that, a Schwinn or a Raleigh, you know? That was it really. That was in terms of being a kid, that was the class distinction. I achieved it, so I grew up feeling pretty rich until I was 13. NEIL: Hello, I'm Neil Goldberg and this is my new podcast, She's A Talker. On today's episode I'll be talking to one-of-a-kind of poet, playwright, memoirist and performer Annie Lanzillotto. But first, I want to tell you a little bit about the podcast itself. I'm a visual artist, but for the last million or so years I've been writing passing thoughts down on index cards. I've got thousands of them. I originally wrote the cards just for me or maybe as starting points for future art projects, but now I'm using them as prompts for conversations with some of my favorite artists, writers, performers, and beyond. Why is it called She's A Talker? Way back in 1993, I made my first-ever video project which featured dozens of gay men in their apartments all over New York city combing their cats and saying the words, "She's a talker." 25 years later, I'm excited to resurrect the phrase for this podcast. NEIL: Each episode, I'll start with some recent cards. Here they are, photo project, the litter boxes of celebrities, those people who have strong feelings about you're saying, "Bless you.", Before they sneeze. Babies making their dolphin noises at a wedding. Those glass buildings that appear curved, but then you realize it's just an approximation of a curve made from rectangle. I am so excited to have as my guest, writer and performer Annie Lanzillotto. Annie and I went to college together many, many years ago and have been dear friends ever since. She produced, what to this day, is still one of my favorite performance pieces ever. A site-specific opera featuring the vendors at the Arthur Avenue market near where she grew up in the Bronx. I remember a butcher singing a gorgeous love aria while frying up chicken hearts. NEIL: Annie has a new double book of poetry out from Guernica Editions, called Hard Candy / Pitch Roll Yaw, which touches on parental mortality, her own struggles with cancer and poverty. And if that sounds heavy, there is so much beauty and joy and pleasure and straight-up polarity in the work. I spoke to Annie very late on a very hot August night in my art studio in Chinatown. NEIL: I'm recording. I'm recording. NEIL: I'm here with Annie Lanzillotto. Okay, Annie. Here are a couple of questions that I ask everyone. What is the elevator pitch for what you do? ANNIE: Oh my God, that's so hard. I write and speak and put my body on stage, and in live and an audience, whoever's in the room, I resuscitate that room. NEIL: Is that what you would say to someone in an elevator who asks, "Hey, what do you do?" ANNIE: No. NEIL: What would you say to them? I resuscitate the room. ANNIE: Some people I say, "Well, I do theater. Oh, I'm in theater." Then they say, "Oh, I saw the Lion King.", or something. Oh, that's beautiful. At some point when I was cleaning out the closets, I found the picture I drew as a kid. I think the question was, what do you do or what do you want to do or what do want to be or whatever? I drew five situations where this stick figure was commanding a story. One was at the table, one was on a corner, one was on the stage, and I thought, "That's what I do." NEIL: I love it. I love it. ANNIE: The truth about my elevator pitch is I'm listening to the other person in the elevator. That really is the truth. I always feel like I'm very good at bonding but not so good at networking. So, that elevator pitch, in my mind, is someone who is in a position maybe to help me advance my work, which is a problem to frame it that way. But in reality they end up telling me about their sick kid and we're hugging and that's really the elevator pitch. NEIL: Right. ANNIE: I'm just listening to- NEIL: Do you do an elevator catch? ANNIE: Yeah. Just listen. NEIL: What did your mom, Annie, let's say a friend of hers asked her, "What does Annie do?" What would she say? ANNIE: Well, she at times, probably would've said, I taught. I did workshops, taught writing and theater. I think with her neighbors, she would really share with them her love and pride. NEIL: How about your grandmother? Why would she say? ANNIE: Oh God. Well, Grandma Rose, she would, Grandma Rose always wanted to know you were eating good. At the time when she was alive, I was hustling a lot of teaching jobs, like Poet in the Schools. Mostly I was a Poet in the School, so I would call her between schools. I was running from one school and another school and she'd just always want to know cosa mangia oggi? What did you eat today? Really that was the conversation. NEIL: Would she, in talking about you with friends, would she tell them what you had eaten that day? How's Annie doing? ANNIE: She's a good eater. She eats good. Mangia bene. No, I don't know. I don't think she talked to her friends that way. NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: But to boil it down, she would want to know if you're making money. And that's the conversation with friends. Oh, she's a good girl. She makes money. She helps her mother. NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: It wasn't about career choice or something. NEIL: Annie, what's something you find yourself thinking about today? ANNIE: One thought I'm having is that prices are arbitrary. The other day I went for breakfast in a diner. I ordered one way, but the waitress understood in a different way. So anyway, it was two eggs, whatever. So she said, "That'll be $17." I said, "That sounds like a lot." She said," Oh well you got this, you got that" I said, "Yeah, but I ordered the combo. It's shouldn't be that much." So she rang it up a different way. She was like, "All right, how about $12?" It's almost seems like prices don't matter and it seems arbitrary. I think this is a new experience for me because in the past I started noticing what my mom, every time we went food shopping, several items were rung up more than they were supposed to be. My mother was sharp at this because I think in ShopRite if you caught a mistake, you got a lot for free, whatever the, there was some bonus like you got that item for free or whatever it was. So she caught them a lot. But it was pretty much every time. NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: I'm cognizant now not to buy too many items at once because then I can't keep track of what the prices were on the shelf. The old way, if you go to the market for two, three things, string beans, peaches and a piece of meat you don't lose track because you're buying, you have a push cart with a million items, how can you keep track? So I guess the thought is that prices have no relevance anymore to what the thing is. NEIL: Okay Annie, let's go to the cards. Shall we? ANNIE: Let's do it. Let's go to the cards. NEIL: Okay. Our first card, the card says the pleasure of wearing things out. ANNIE: I love that you brought that up. Well, I was always wearing out my sneakers and throwing them up on the telephone wires or the light wires, or whatever wires were over our heads in the Bronx and that was the joy to wear them out. My mother, who was a cripple as a kid because she fell out a window, would always say to me when she bought me new sneakers, PF flyers with the sneakers that I wore as a kid, "Wear them out. God bless you, be in good health. Wear them out." Every two months I'd wear out those sneakers, and my grandmother was horrified. NEIL: But your mother would love it? ANNIE: Yeah, because to her that was health. Wear out your sneakers. That meant I was doing the work of a tomboy, of the kid. I do feel worried about wearing out pajamas and things that I don't really have money to replace. So my neighbor saw me sewing a new elastic in my pajama bottoms with the flannel pajamas. She was making fun of me." Why don't you just go buy a new pair?" I was like, "Well this season I really don't have another 40, 50 bucks for LLB or whatever. I want to get through the season.", which is something I grew up hearing, but it stayed with me, like see if he could get into the season out of it. NEIL: I wonder if we'll ever feel that way about our lives. Let's see if I can get another season out of this. ANNIE: Well, I do hear people saying, "I wish I had a few more summers at the beach." Or, "I could, I hope I could have a few more summers." People do count like that. NEIL: That's true. ANNIE: Like seasons. NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: "I hope I see Italy one more time." I hear people, "Will I get back to Paris." NEIL: Right. ANNIE: You know, I hear people saying things like that. NEIL: yeah, ANNIE: So they do try to stretch it out, I think. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I've done enough. There is a part of me that feels like I've done enough to be satisfied if there's no more. If there's no more, it's okay. NEIL: Okay, next card. ANNIE: I love these cards. It's like playing a game like Monopoly. NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: And you get Community Chest or whatever the- NEIL: I know. ANNIE: Chance. It's like Chance. NEIL: Yeah. Here's this Chance. I think it's important to have access when you are eating something you love to imagine them as they are to people who hate them. For me the classic example of that is dark chocolate, which I love. It's very easy I think, for me to plug into how someone would find this disgusting and somehow my tuning into finding it disgusting, helps me to enjoy it even more. ANNIE: Really? NEIL: Yeah. Do you remember the first time you had coffee? ANNIE: No, because I was probably two years old with expresso on my bottle, like most Italian kids. NEIL: Right. ANNIE: I don't eat things that I know people who, they hate what I eat. But people do, I feel like having a version to my proportions, the amount I eat. I think that freaks people out because I grew up, and I still wolf food down. Just Wolf it down and too much of it. Just shoving it in your mouth. Like your cheeks bulging, you're chewing and you're just yeah. Shoving as much as you can in your mouth, basically. NEIL: In Yiddish, you say, and I think it's related to German, human beings es but animals fres. So, if you're talking about someone eating in a certain way, you say they use the term for how animals eat versus how people eat. ANNIE: Fres? NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: What does that mean? Like that? NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: Like a piece of pizza I could just shove in my mouth, inhale, a good piece, out on the corner. NEIL: Right. ANNIE: I just pull up in Hoboken where my friend is, where she works, there's a great pizzeria right on the corner. She gets free pizza because she does their printing services. So I meet her, she says, "Oh I'll meet you outside" So we get a piece of pizza. Oh you want a piece of pizza. All right, give me a piece of pizza. Fine. I'm an Hoboken, eat a piece of pizza. She gets a few slices. We stand on the corner. Just boom, shove it in our mouth. Wolf it down like folded by. No soda, no water. Just inhale the piece of pizza. NEIL: Is there pleasure in that? ANNIE: Yes. NEIL: Because see I always just associate the pleasure of eating with eating slowly but- ANNIE: No. Not Italians NEIL: Talk to me about it. ANNIE: It's just, this pleasure of your mouth is full of this gooey perfect thing. You just can't believe that you lived another day just to have ... It's like then I want to stay alive because it's such satiation, with just shoving it in your mouth. You're not taking your time because you're not worried there's another bite. It could just be gone. NEIL: See, this makes me feel good because I remember when my dad, after he had a stroke, he couldn't feed himself. He couldn't communicate and we had this person who would help him. She was cold and she used to feed him so quickly, spoonful after spoonful, to get it over with. I knew that my dad actually like to eat slow. I know I talked about with my sister. I was like, you know, do you think I should ask? I can't remember her name, little trauma blocked out, but to feed him slower. My sister said. "No, I think there can be pleasure in eating fast." Speaking of food, but this question doesn't need to just apply to food, what is a taste that you've acquired? ANNIE: Well, coffee, vino, peppermint soap. Dr. Brown's peppermint soap. Myrrh. NEIL: Oh wow. Okay. ANNIE: The street oil from the guys. I've grown accustomed to Myrrh, and the smells of the city, I've learned to groove on in a way. I sometimes feel in the grassy suburbs, I could sneeze hundreds of times and I just need to get to the city and it'll stop. So something about like, yeah, I'm good with the asphalt, tar. My mother used to tell me to go breathe where they're burning tar. She said it clears out your lungs. NEIL: Wow. ANNIE: She said tar ladies and never get colds. NEIL: Okay, next card. I feel really judgmental of people with a strong will to live. ANNIE: That gives me so much good feeling because I'm so tied to having to struggle to live. But the best, Jimmy Cagney in this movie I saw, I don't know what movie. It was on TCN, and he's about to run into this gunfire and he says to his partner, who was hesitating, he says, "What, do you want to live forever?" I thought, "Thank you, thank you. That's just what I needed to hear." I'm so tired of fighting to live, from the cancer and the breathing issues and just, Oh my God, that's a relief. It really is. NEIL: Next card. Life is hard, but how the pitch rises when you fill a water bottle can still be pretty beautiful. ANNIE: The pitch.? NEIL: Yeah. Is that the word for it? ANNIE: Like, how you feel? NEIL: You know when you fill a water bottle and it goes, errr? There's always that still. ANNIE: I like filling my water bottle. I've been filling it in the Britta, so I have to stand there with the fridge open to fill it and then I water the plants and it's the same kind of feeling. I like doing that. I like seeing the plants grow and it's the most pleasurable thing in my life to see in these plants growing and feeding them water. NEIL: I went away and we sublet our place. I have one big plant that really only needs to be watered every two weeks. But I had one plant that needs to be watered, I water it every other day. ANNIE: Every other day? NEIL: Truthfully, this plant, I remember one day I came in, it had wilted, after. I hadn't watered it for three days and I found myself saying out loud, "Drama queen". So anyhow, we were down in DC for a month and I was going to take the plant with me, but we had this really wonderful sub-letter and I just said to her, "Do you think you would be okay watering the plant twice a week? Totally no problem. "If you're not, I'll just take it down with me". She was like, "Absolutely no problem." When I came back, she left me a note that said, I'm so sorry but I killed your plant. ANNIE: Oh my God. NEIL: It was clear it hadn't been watered the whole time I was gone. ANNIE: Really? NEIL: Yeah, I don't think so. I moved on, but my point is, I don't get how a plant could be there in your living room and he could not see it and it could be dying over there without you're taking that in. ANNIE: When I'm someone's house and the plants don't look healthy, I register that in a big way. NEIL: What is that registration? ANNIE: Well, people could think they're so smart or hip or they make such great decisions and doing this. But if you can't take care of a fucking plant, it doesn't mean anything to me. Sometimes I can't go back to people's houses for reasons like that because I can't witness the abuse. NEIL: Plant abuse. ANNIE: Well, any sentient being. Yeah, some of the stuff I just can't stomach, to be honest. The plants dying or no one's ... You're that busy? Then what do you have plants for? Give it away. I just can't- NEIL: I hear you. Do you think of plants a sentient? ANNIE: Yeah, a plant is alive and I think communicates in ways we'll never understand. A plant has movement, responds to light, water, earth, the sky, the sun, everything. NEIL: I just have a card that's called, swallowing pills. ANNIE: Swallowed a big one today. NEIL: Yeah. ANNIE: Before I go to the dentist, I have to take Amoxicillin. In America they give you a 500 milligram pills. You got to take four. NEIL: Wow. ANNIE: They go down easy. But I had some Amoxicillin from Sicily. They were one- gram pills. They were big and I tried to swallow three times. I couldn't get it down. I had to really focused then. Should I bite it, should I swallow it? what can I try? Am I going to choke on it? Finally I got it down this morning, but it wasn't coated so it stuck a little in the mouth. I went through this whole thing with this pill. NEIL: You really have to consciously will yourself. The experience of swallowing pills is such an odd, it's not eating. You have to do this thing where you don't chew something. Swallowing- ANNIE: You got to open the back of your mouth a little bit, the throat a little bit. NEIL: Yeah. And it goes against something really basic or a bunch of things that are really basic. ANNIE: It does. Right. You don't swallow M&Ms. NEIL: Right. ANNIE: You'd never swallow an M&M. NEIL: Absolutely not. ANNIE: Never would you swallow an M&M. it would be like, what are you doing? NEIL: I had a colonoscopy recently. ANNIE: Oh, brother. NEIL: Thank you. ANNIE: Nice and clean? NEIL: One thing, I was telling a friend, I got a colonoscopy and he said, "Oh, you know, I had it. I just did one, a couple of months ago, and my doctor really commended me for how clean my colon was." I realized when I had a, because I've had to have a few because of this history in my family. Every time, they go out of their way to praise what a job, how clean your colon is. So when I was done with the colonoscopy, and I was talking to this friend and he said, "Well did he praise you for how clean your colon was?" I was like, "He didn't." ANNIE: He didn't? NEIL: He didn't, but then I got the report about the colonoscopy and it's like very formal, and it's the patient presented with an exceedingly clean colon or something. ANNIE: Which is abnormal. NEIL: Exactly. ANNIE: Very abnormal. NEIL: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Last card. The feels-like temperature. ANNIE: Feels like. NEIL: You know how you feel when the weather- ANNIE: It feels like, yeah, that's weird. NEIL: What is the feels-like temperature? ANNIE: I don't know but- NEIL: How do they- ANNIE: But today when I felt like, before I put on a jacket, I had to go on the stoop to feel what it was going to feel like. Then I didn't do it. But I don't know how they measure the feels-like temperature. That's a sweet thought. So there's a thermometer, then there's a naked lady standing there saying, "Well the thermometer says this, but it really feels that." That should be a job for somebody. NEIL: Oh my God, to come up with the feels-like temperature? ANNIE: Yeah. Like is it a nipple hard day? Is it what day? What kind of day is it? NEIL: Okay. Annie, this is a quantification question. What's something bad or even just okay that you would take over a good thing of something else. ANNIE: All right, I'll give you a list. A bad eggplant Parmesan hero over a good raw sushi meal. A bad thunderstorm storm over a hundred-degree day. A hard day in the hospital with someone I'm close to, over being at the beach with 10 friends. Take any day, bad or good in the rehearsal room, over chit-chat brunch. A bad rant in the basement of the mental home with my father over a beautiful meal with intellectuals. NEIL: On that note, Annie, I love you. Thank you for being on the show, She's A Talker. ANNIE: She's a talker, baby. Thank you, Neil. You're my favorite host. NEIL: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of She's A Talker. I really hope you liked it. To help other people find it, I'd love it if you might rate and review it on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to it. Some credits. This series is made possible with generous from Stillpoint Fund, and with help from Devon Guinn, Aaron Dalton, Stella Binion, Charlie Theobald, Itai Almor, Alex Qiao, Molly Donahue, Justine Lee, Angela Liao, Andrew Litton, Josh Graver, and my husband Jeff Hiller who sings the theme song you're about to hear. Thanks to them, to my guest, Annie Lanzillotto, and to you for listening.  

Jenny: Welcome to the 100th episode of The Joys of Binge Reading podcast. Yes! We've reached 100 episodes. I can hardly believe it! Hi there. I'm your host Jenny Wheeler and when I started this podcast two years ago, my first modest goal was to reach a respectable number  - 50 in fact - and now look at us! I'm absolutely thrilled. We talked to a hundred fantastic mystery, thriller and romance authors, recording their wins and losses and giving you, their readers, a chance to discover new books you'll never want to put down. All to be found on the website with links in perpetuity. To me, that's an exciting achievement. And I'm just as enthusiastic about adding the next 100 new Authors to the list. But we're pausing just for a moment to celebrate by doing something a little different for our centenary podcast.  For our 100th birthday. I'm swapping seats with thriller author Annie Seaton and she's going to ask me the questions for a change.  Annie was on Episode #62 of the podcast talking about her romantic-eco thrillers. So when we met up again and got talking at a writers conference recently, she seemed like the perfect guest host to put me in the firing line, asking about how we got started, what we've learned and where we might go next. And just as a cherry on top of the cake, we've also got an exciting Giveaway. Five ebook copies of my latest book Unbridled Vengeance, out this week, is offered in a draw for lucky readers and listeners. Here's how to enter: Harvey: A harsh land, a bitter rival. Will a vicious double murder destroy a Sacramento rancher's hard fought legacy? Strong on suspense, light on romance, Unbridled Vengeance is Book #5 in Jenny Wheeler's Of Gold & Blood old California series, easily read either as a standalone or as part of the series. Enter the draw on  The Joys of Binge Reading.com or on the Binge Reading Facebook page. We'll select one winner a week for the next five weeks. Offer closes November 19th. Six things you'll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: How the Binge Reading podcast got startedWhy Jenny was a reluctant bloggerWhy she loves 1860s CaliforniaThe most enjoyable thing about doing a podcastThe lure of historical mysteriesWhat she's learned from podcasting Where to find Jenny Wheeler: Website: http://jennywheeler.biz (for Books) And of course, www.thejoysofbingereading.com (for podcast) Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JennyAtBingeReading/ AND @JennyWheeler.Biz  Twitter: @Jenny_Biz Instagram: @Jenny'sBingeReading Pinterest: JennyWheeler Books What follows is a "near as" transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: Thanks for that. And now, here's Annie. Hello there Annie, and welcome to the show, it's great to have you with us. Annie: Hi Jenny. Thank you so much for letting me sit in your chair today. It's lovely to be on the other side and to be asking the questions. Jenny: That's great. I'm sure you do really well. Annie: ]So shall we start? Jenny Wheeler - Podcaster and mystery author Jenny: Yes, let's. Annie: Okay. So Jenny tell me what made you to want to begin a podcast? Jenny: Well Annie, when I started in this writing game nearly four years ago now, it took me a couple of years to basically understand what the new publishing landscape looks like.  I was starting to get all of this information about how you had to do blogs and have this thing called an author platform,  I'd never really heard of author platforms before that, and I'd done lots and lots of blogs in the past for a business that I was associated with. Nearly a thousand blogs for a business that I was associated with and the idea of trying to start another blog just left me absolutely cold. I couldn't summon any enthusiasm for it at all. So I thought maybe I could do a podcast and that would work in the same way as a blog.

Often women are socialized to present as if they need nothing from the world. While the spirit of independence is inspiring, the reality is that as humans we do need things and that isn’t about weakness, it’s about humanity. In today’s episode, Jen and Annie talk to clinical social worker Mel Bosna to explore human needs and why they matter.   What you’ll hear in this episode: How to begin identifying our needs and how to meet them in a healthy way Societal messages around women’s needs Why it’s not really noble to ignore your own needs Anti-dependency culture and what it means Uncommunicated needs and expectations Maslow's hierarchy of needs When we put unmet needs onto our body and our food Food, exercise and belonging Finding validation from within versus outsourcing that Getting needs met within a family system Motherhood and how we de-prioritize our basic needs ahead of the wants of others Getting comfortable with the discomfort of vocalizing our own needs The discomfort of trying to be someone you’re not Getting curious about the kind of women we elevate and why The initial disruption that comes from laying down boundaries The habituation process as family acclimatize to everyone having needs Setting boundaries or choosing resentment How resilient relationships adjust to change Two dominant narratives around needs Coming to the realization that your happiness is worth the discomfort of others with meeting your needs Self-soothing after the discomfort of advocating for your needs Learning to advocate for your needs Learning to need without self-judgment Scheduling in time for family, self and relationship Shifting mindset from scarcity to abundance Role-modelling self care and examining the messaging we perpetuate when we don’t advocate for our needs   Resources: Mel Bosna’s Website Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance 365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies, on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. We live in a culture that often labels women who express their needs as needy or high maintenance. We praise women for being needless, for ignoring their own wishes and desires so everyone else around them can thrive. But denying your needs can ultimately leave you feeling resentful, misunderstood, or even downright angry. Clinical social worker, feminist therapist and artist Mel Bosna understands that having needs doesn't make you needy, it makes you human. Mel is a licensed clinician in the state of Arizona and believes that our best chance at health involve both individual and societal changes and as a result, Mel aims to validate the broader context of what contributes to the stories we're living while supporting clients to change what's within their control to change. Mel feels that it's been a profound honor for her to support women. Together they are learning how to walk away, claim new life, root into new ground, speak the unspeakable, own the narrative, change the script and to say enough to the shame and the lies that have haunted them for too long. On today's episode, Mel offers amazing insight on how to begin identifying our needs and how to meet them in a healthy way. Mel acknowledges that honoring and communicating our needs can leave many of us feeling vulnerable, but encourages us to acknowledge the discomfort as an opportunity for new growth. As always, if you want to continue the discussion from today's episode, we invite you to join our free Facebook group, Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Enjoy! Jen, we have a special guest, like a VIP guest with us today. Are you so stoked? Jen: I am. Annie: Yeah. Mel, how are you? Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio. Mel: I am so thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me. Annie: We are so happy that you're here. You've been around our community for a while. Like you go, you go way back. Mel: Beginning. Annie: How did you, how did you find, well, it probably was Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Mel: Yeah. Annie: -at the time, how did you find us? Or how did we find you or do you remember that? Mel: To be clear, I really don't. I, I think I probably found you as like a recommended group on Facebook, which I'm no longer on, but- Annie: Thanks, Facebook. Mel: No, I stumbled across it and having worked in the eating disorder recovery field for quite awhile, I was always looking for resources that were balanced and appropriate to send people to. And so I just kind of fell into the group. I really enjoyed it for the season that I was involved and have just loved cheerleading, watching, you know, what you guys are doing, it's been really great. Annie: Well, we appreciate it. Do you want to take just a quick second to explain to our audience about your work, what you do? Mel: Sure. I am a clinical social worker in private practice in Scottsdale, Arizona. I've been in private practice now for about seven years, but prior to that I'd worked at a number of different facilities. So I did inpatient eating disorder work for about four years, specialize in body image work, sexuality, trauma, our relationship with food and spirituality and one another. From there I was the director of a group home for girls who'd been sex trafficked, was only there for about a year. Loved the population. The agency wasn't a great fit for me. And then I started having kids and you know, reevaluated my career at that point. And so I've been in private practice since then and really specialize with things that fall under the umbrella of women's issues. So I do a lot of complex trauma, attachment, parenting, sexuality, relationship issues, lots of codependency work and really just trying to empower women to discover who they want to be and to, yeah, just give themselves permission to find their own path, ways of meeting their own needs. Mel: And as they do that, it's just compounding, right. All the growth and freedom and vitality within their families and communities. So I definitely look at things from a specific social work perspective. I like to challenge systems. I like to dismantle them, I like to see, yeah, I just like to see people experience a lot more freedom. So- Annie: Right on and you're just, you're a good human and like a powerful, powerful woman. Mel: I definitely feel my power. That's good. Jen: You also are very, you're very creative, Mel. You have, you're an amazing photographer. Mel: Yes. That's kind of been a side project that I fell into. I never set out to, um, be a photographer. It's kind of funny that that word still doesn't roll off my tongue very naturally, but finding ways to integrate art within my activism and healing spaces has been really profound and healing for me, on both a personal and a professional level. So I do have a passion project where I photograph women who are telling their own stories so you can find that work on Melbosna.com. Women getting to share their stories with the hope of just kind of reducing the fear that often comes from just not knowing or understanding one another. Annie: Yeah, it's beautiful. Circling back to something you said when you were telling us about your work was you mentioned women acknowledging their needs, getting their needs met. And that's what we wanted to bring you on to talk to us about today because you and Jen had a little private conversation in the Instagram dm's which so frequently happens with, Jennifer, which I love and adore. That's how we get a lot of our podcast guests is that this, there's this concept and I really identify this, so I'm so excited to see what you have to say on it is, women are taught to be needless, that I always kind of attribute it to, and I know this wasn't her intention and I'm not pointing the finger, but this like kind of this Beyonce attitude, this like, "I don't need anyone. I'm too cool to care. Like I can do it myself." And like, and as a result, I often struggle for asking for help or even really being very clear on what, what do I need? Like what am I feeling? What do I need? And again, the messages is that we shouldn't be needy. Or if we're needy that we're high maintenance. And I think you'd probably want to, argue against that, right? That having needs does not make you high maintenance. Right? Mel: Right. Having needs makes you human. And so our rejection of our needs is actually a rejection of our own humanity and it makes it very difficult then to be a healthy human, are good human if we're rejecting such a core part of ourself. And there are so many different messages that we are raised with about having needs. So whether that's, you know, "Don't be dependent on anyone to meet your needs" like you were just referencing, kind of the anti dependency spirit, right? Like I don't need nobody or where we get those messages that say, that it's like good to be needless, that it's noble to be needless. Don't be aware of having needs or if you are aware that you should sacrifice them and that there's an honor in that. And women particularly are rewarded for being self sacrificial in that way, but it's not really sacrifice in a holy way. It's actually neglectful and it's destructive. Jen: Yeah. That's more where I identify with the word needless, where Annie thinks of Beyonce. And I think of like being subservient and quiet and small and being rewarded for that and feeling loved and validated as a woman because I don't take up space and I don't need anything. Mel: Right. Jen: I find that, I suppose they're both destructive in their own way, but I find that concept of womanhood more destructive than the Beyonce analogy. But I don't know if I've ever lived the Beyonce, perhaps that's why I find it more destructive and that's definitely my background is if anyone who's followed me for any amount of time, I've had a big breakthrough blog post about five years ago called The Selfish Mom in which I wrote about my transformation of, from just serving my partner and my children to kind of stepping out in the world and going, "Hey, wait a moment like this, this doesn't feel very good and I have needs and you four have to make space for those needs in our life." And just how inconvenient I felt and how uncomfortable I was. But, that went, I mean, millions of people have read that blog post now and I think it resonated with a lot of women. So, that's more my experience of wanting to be needless. Mel: Well, I think deep down, we know that we have needs, but we're not taught, again, how to recognize them or meet them appropriately. And so what I see happening is that because we don't know how to steward them or meet them in appropriate ways, that it will always come out sideways in our life. And so whether that's displacement through putting our needs onto other people around us with the expectation that they're just going to meet them on their own, or be able to read them or anticipate what our needs are or displacement onto other areas in our life that are inappropriate, that are illegitimate, expecting that to fulfill our needs. So, you know, at a very base level, we all, humans all have the needs for, you know, safety, shelter, food, water, stability, community, family, right? Like relationship, belonging. But above that, like if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs right above that, then we look at our needs for worth, for identity, for romance and sexual, you know, fulfillment or connection and self actualization and purpose and these other needs that, again, are, they're valid and human. Mel: And we all have them, whether we acknowledge that we have them or not. And so if they're not met appropriately, which most of us don't grow up learning how to meet them appropriately, they will inevitably come out sideways. And so in my work with women, I have seen it most problematic when women displace their needs for belonging, acceptance, worth identity, I see them displace that onto food or onto their bodies as a way of trying to meet that need and fulfill it, which will never happen appropriately because food was never meant to fulfill our identity. Jen: There's, another thing too, and inside of this idea that we can meet our needs with food or a body size, you have whole communities that have risen up to support these pursuits. And so what happens is you, you find, you feel as if you, you can find a place to belong if you, too, participate in this, whether it's these food rules or becoming this body size. And that can feel really good, especially for somebody who might actually feel pretty lonely or has been experiencing rejection, or has struggled with just fitting into this culture that does seem to be consumed with food. So it can feel really good initially. And you hear a lot of people, I think, they defend their diets, or they defend, you know, what they're doing, what their goal is because they still have the warm and fuzzies perhaps. Mel: That meets the need. It actually does meet the need. And so it's really hard to walk away from something that's meeting the need, even if it's also costing, you. Jen: Right. Mel: In the process. And so, I mean, I don't think anybody's crazy or stupid for engaging in those types of behaviors because they are, they are actually meeting a need, but it's not meeting it the way that it's designed to be met, if that makes sense. And so because of, because it's an illegitimate way to meet the need, there are all these, like, negative consequences or costs in the process, right? And it's so fluid. So you have to maintain a destructive habit in order to continue to belong or feel accepted or valued. Jen: Right, right. Annie: On a personal note, I found that a lot of the needs that I've been trying to meet, I've been trying to meet them from the outside in versus inside out, if that makes sense. You know, like I was trying to outsource my confidence or put my confidence in my self worth in the hands of other people. Like if my peers like my work, if my husband thinks I'm attractive, if my girlfriends like my outfit, if they think I'm funny, if they think I'm smart then like, you know, then I feel seen or I feel worthy or I feel good enough but it doesn't, it's not super sustainable because then I felt like I was forever reliant on this like applause or this like, "Hey, you like me, right? Like, I'm still doing a good enough job, right? Like, hey, like I'm okay, right? Did I do a good job? Jen: If you like me then I can like me. Annie: Instead of just like checking in with myself. Like, in fact, I've shared many times, Mel, you are actually one of the reasons I started going to therapy because you're like, maybe you need to talk to someone about that. Jen: Maybe just stop messaging me on Instagram. Annie: It was on Instagram. Jen: Mel set a boundary. Annie: And it was wonderful, but one of the things she said was like, "Well, what's your experience? What do you think?" And I'm like, "Well, they liked it so it was good enough." And she's like, "Uh uh. No, you didn't answer the question." And so turning inward or reflecting inward before trying to like outsource all that has been a lot, a lot of work, but it feels like I'm on the right path. Mel: Mmhmmm. It is an inside job and there's both power and grief related to that. Right? Like it's, we still want to have that validation or affirmation given to us from others because again, as women, that's what we've been taught is the path forward, right? As long as we're needless, as long as we're pleasing to others, accommodating others, meeting other people's needs for what, for how we should act or what we should look like, then we think that we can provide ourselves with that type of security. So it can feel really scary to start elevating our own voice, right? And our own validation, it can feel really scary initially because it's just such a unfamiliar pattern for us. But it is rewarding, like you're talking about, to feel so firmly rooted in knowing who we are and also how to meet our needs. Mel: So then it's not dependent on all these other people around us. When we know how to appropriately meet our needs, then we're not just outsourcing them and then scared or powerless with, like, whether or not other people are going to be able to come along and validate, support, fulfill what it is that we're looking for. I see a lot of women do this within their own family, again, because they don't know how to meet their needs. They'll just place their need for validation, for worth, for fulfillment onto their kids or onto their partner. Again, such a, such a vulnerability for their own growth as well as like a huge responsibility for their kids then to have to grow up with making mom happy, making sure mom's okay, making sure mom feels good about herself and so again, the more that we can learn appropriately how to validate and meet our own needs so they're not coming out sideways in our marriages and our parenting or communities, just the healthier the whole system functions. Mel: So it's taken a lot of work. I mean, from, also from a personal place. Like I didn't grow up aware of what my needs were or how to meet them. I am the daughter of a pastor and his wife and I love my parents so much, but both within the spiritual community I grew up with as well as the traditional family system I grew up with, I just was completely clueless and I just thought that my husband was going to know how to meet my needs when I got married at 24 and so this process for me of identifying what my needs actually are and taking ownership of them and then learning how to ask for support at times with meeting them, has been bumpy. It's been sold with a lot of trial and error. But the more that I've taken risk with owning what those needs are and learning how to nurture them and steward them, again, the healthier I have felt and the healthier my family system functions. Jen: I'm circling back to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. This is quite common. I see this and with women I talked to is that, they are making sure or they are the facilitators or the supporter of members of their family reaching higher levels when their baseline is not even being met. And so sometimes I have to, really, it's hard, right? Cause everybody's operating from their own level of awareness. And you know, when I see a woman post, one happened in our community that she couldn't afford pelvic floor physiotherapy after paying all of her children's sports fees for the year. And something like that just breaks my heart, although I can't say I haven't been there right where you are so low on the to do list that your children are participating in multiple extra curricular activities before your own basic health care can be tended to. And what we talk about in Balance365, actually in our program is this, if you are a member of a family, this is a family job to sit down and make sure everybody's needs are being met. And that is so uncomfortable for so many women, me included. So I was wondering if you can help us in, sharing with our audience how a woman can get started there, what that's going to feel like. Mel: Sure. That's such a great question, Jen. I'm glad you asked it. I think one of the first things that I would, um, encourage anybody who's curious about this process is to start exploring what makes them feel so uncomfortable to begin with, right? And perhaps that's through journaling. Perhaps that's through talking with like, a good friend or your Facebook group. But really just starting to, to evaluate what is it that feels so risky about having needs and prioritizing them and when we bump up against our discomfort or that vulnerability, that's a prime opportunity always for new ground to take place in our life. And so again, we have been taught to avoid discomfort, I think culturally, on a societal level. Like we see it as like risky and just maintain the status quo. But again, that's always where new ground takes place. Mel: And so if we can get comfortable being uncomfortable, right? Like embracing, like, this feels really risky for me to take up space. Why? What messages have I received about taking up space? And whether that's with my physical body or the fact that I need a nap or I'm hungry right now, or I want a vacation away from my family. Or like, I need new clothes or I haven't bought new underwear and you know, so my clients haven't bought new underwear in two years. Jen: Right. Mel: And they're like buying their kids, like, whatever their needs are on a regular basis. So whatever that is, to be able to just say, what is uncomfortable about taking up space here? We just start with looking at the messages that women have heard and the stories they tell themselves. And the behaviors don't change if the story doesn't change. Jen: Mhmm, I think sometimes, you know, for me, I've had to look at the way, what type of woman I've glorified and what type of woman has been glorified within my family and my community or socially, right? So, members of my family, me included, we have glorified the woman who does it all. The woman who wants to be with our kids 24/7 and so I was trying to make myself into a woman who I have seen glorified, not into the woman who I actually am. And that's like square peg, round hole. It doesn't fit very well and it doesn't feel very good when you're trying to squeeze yourself into being something who you aren't. Mel: Right. Right. So I what I love about that, it's just the questioning, right? Of what's the story I've been given about what it is to be a woman, a mother, a partner and does the story serve me? Jen: Right? And the other thing you, a lot of women, have to eventually look at is who have they judged before? Right. So, in my story as I went about trying to be this woman, I was very judgmental to other women who weren't doing that same thing. I was very judgmental towards women who were being more fearless than me, setting boundaries in their family. I think I was maybe maybe resentful towards these women. Jealous? I don't know what it was, but they just weren't fitting into my narrow view of the way women should be which in the end ultimately made it even harder for me to kind of let go of this because I had a lot invested. My ego was totally invested in this way of living. So yeah. Mel: Yeah. It can make it hard when we're invested in a particular narrative, and I'm just going to say this cause I think it might be something that your community bumps up against. It's also really hard when those around us are also invested in this narrative. And so when a woman decides that they are going to start validating and honoring the needs that she has and her children, her partner, her, again, the community at large isn't used to her having needs. There is a disruption that can follow that initially, which is why we need the support and validation of others as well as we do find this new narrative. So I tell people it's kind of like a baby mobile. If you can picture one above a crib, right when you add or take away any part of that baby mobile, right? Like say it's a bunch of teddy bears. Mel: There is an immediate disruption to it, right? Like where it moves around and it feels like chaos and it's unsettling and uncomfortable for every part of that mobile, but eventually it habituates. It finds a new norm. And so for women who are learning, again, how to start to take up more space and ownership of what needs they do have, there is often that initial disruption where where their kids, their partner again, maybe like, "Hey, I don't know. I don't know that I like that you're leaving right now. Right? Or that you're going to go lay down right now or that you're readjusting the budget to buy your underwear when I was planning on getting a new, like, game boy or something." Like there's that initial disruption as everyone's finding like this new norm of what this woman's needs look like within the family system, but it will habituate. And so if we can get comfortable with that initial discomfort or disruption, we can trust that it is what's healthy and good for everyone involved. Annie: This is so hitting home right now because, this probably isn't going to come as a shocker, but I pride myself on being like strong. Like no, I'll just do it myself. Everything from like opening the pickle jar to, like, pushing a car out of the driveway if the battery's dead, like no, like I don't want to ask for your help and if you offer your help, I'm probably going to be even annoyed that you even offered help. And like, I'll just do it myself. And one of the things that I've accepted as I've grown older is I actually am a crier, but I have associated this whatever is behind the tears as weakness. That's like the story that I've told myself is that it's weak and it's something to be ashamed of. And watching the most interesting part has been watching other people respond to me crying cause it's kind of like "Is she okay. Like what? Okay, I don't know what to do with her right now that she's crying." And I'm like, it might not, it might be joy. It might be sadness, it might be I was just embarrassed or it could be so many things, but it has been, like, interesting to be like, "I know what I'm doing and I'm comfortable. But watching your discomfort is interesting for lack of a better word," Mel: Right, right. Well, it's unfamiliar for others it sounds like to see you show emotion, like part of your vulnerability. They're not used to that. And so, I mean, that's what I'm hearing at least. Annie: Absolutely. No, absolutely. That's spot on. Mel: Are you okay? Versus somebody like me or Jen who maybe cries regularly because of the narratives that we've shared about ourselves to other people. But yeah, they will adjust to your kind of new expression of your emotion the more that you practice it. Jen: In my experience, resilient relationships do adjust, right? So I decided to go back to work after my first son and somehow during my maternity leave there, an assumption had been made by my partner that I wasn't going back to work without a discussion happening and his life got pretty good while I was on maternity leave. It was very Flintstones for lack of a better word. And I have no judgment to anybody who has a lifestyle that is more traditional of father works and mom stays home and does the household stuff that is, if that brings you joy, I'm so happy that you're in that role. But I wanted to go back to work and I remember when I told my partner that that would be happening and how our life would have to adjust his jaw just hit the floor. Like he was just, you know, in his head I could see the wheels turning. Jen: He doesn't, you know, get to go to the gym every day that, you know, all these things, supper on the table at six o'clock, all of these things, he realized it would cause him more work. It was just life would become more physically demanding. And, you know, and that was kind of the reality for me of going back to work was that my life was about to get better and everybody else's lives were going to get harder. And it was very difficult for me to step forward into that and say, "But I'm worth it. My happiness inside this family is worth it. I have made so many sacrifices for all of you. You will make sacrifices for me.” And coming to the realization that that's actually how healthy relationships go, right? There's a give and take. And I think myself and a lot of women feel that there's, after a time, as Brene Brown says, you can set boundaries or you can feel resentful. You can, or it's choose discomfort or choose resentment. It's one or the other. And over time, a lot of women become extremely resentful because they're not able to move into that discomfort and, and say, "Hey, what about me over here?" You know, and you're waiting for someone to do it for you. I think a lot of us also have kind of this white knight complex, like there's some kind of, someone's coming to save us, but there isn't, nobody is nobody's meeting our needs, right. Until we ask for them to be met. Mel: Right, right. Yeah. I see that a lot too. Again, going back to kind of this two dominant narratives, one is, you know, again, somebody's gonna come along and and save me or meet my needs. I see lots of women who are just crossing their fingers, hoping that someone's going to notice, like, what they need and just naturally meet it and that either leads again to like total neglect or resentment or that other narrative like that Annie had shared where I'm not going to be dependent on anybody to meet my needs. I'll just meet them all on my own and neither is a true picture of health. Part of our work is practicing curiosity again with like, "Where do I fall on that spectrum, right?" And so the work that each woman has has more to do with the personal narrative that she has about what it means to be a woman and what she's afraid of. Mel: So if she's afraid of asking for help, right, like being dependent or intimate with somebody, then her work is going to be more about the vulnerability of needing someone else to help meet a need. If her work has been, or I'm sorry, if her narrative, has been largely resting on this idea that I'm not supposed to have needs or allowed to have needs, then it's moving into a space of validation and ownership of them. Recognizing that either way brings about that, like, that discomfort and vulnerability and lack of familiarity. It will be disruptive on a personal and relational basis, but it's worth it. I guess I'm curious to hear from both of you, you know, like what you feel like you've gained through risking owning your need, sharing your needs, doing this work yourself, what's come out of it? Annie: Oh, this isn't how the interview works, Mel. You know, one of the things that has come up, and this is kind of in the grand scheme of things that maybe doesn't feel really big, but I have spent so many birthdays and holidays and Mother's Days praying that my husband will get the gift I want, treat me the way I want, like do the thing that I want. And it's not even necessarily what I want. Not even necessarily like this big extravagant like party or anything. It's just I just, like you said, I want him to read my mind. Right. And what I've done since kind of doing this emotional work in the last couple of years is just flat out said like, this is what I would like. Mel: Yeah. Annie: And he's happy to do that. Like he's happy to fill those needs, assuming that he can make it, whatever happened. And oftentimes it's usually like, I just want to control the day. I just want to come and go as I please lay in the hammock, take a nap, go get a workout, have lunch with my girlfriends, whatever. It's nothing usually extravagant, but that's so much easier for me to just say what I want and like hopefully help assist, implement that if needed. And instead of the alternative, which was this like pouty, like "He didn't get mother's Day right. Like, that's not even the book I wanted. Or like he thinks I like that color? Like what was he thinking?" Jen: It actually takes far more energy, I think to be that, to just ask for what you need then to have all these thoughts racing all the time and disappointments and resentments growing. Annie: But then there's this, and I don't, I don't know. What do you, what do you think of this? There's this like, you know, okay. Just say, like, flowers. Like he got me, I wanted flowers and I kept asking for flowers and now he got me flowers and he only got me flowers because I asked for flowers, so he didn't really want to get me flowers, you know? And then there's this, like, he just got them because I asked them for them. Does that, do you know what that is? Jen's giving me a look like "What are you talking about? " Mel: I do. I do. Annie: Because I want the flowers because it's an expression of your love and how much you care about me, not just because I asked you to get flowers. Does that make sense? Mel: Yes, it does. I relate actually to this very specific example of yours. So I remember years back, my husband would bring me flowers on our anniversary and maybe Valentine's Day. Great. Right? Like those are the two days of the year that we would expect it. And so it wasn't very special. And I know every relationship is different. Every, yeah. But just speaking from my, and then not only will he not bring flowers on those outside of those particular days, he would bring me ugly flowers. Jen: Carnations. Mel: Yes. It would be like flowers that I would be like, "Ugh! Again!" like Annie said, "Does he not know me? Like at all?" Right? Like I would personalize it and so they would be like flowers that just didn't meet my need, right? And so I had to start learning how to advocate for my need. And there is an element to this process that, again, takes some of the surprise out of it, right? Like, like you were saying, Annie, like, you want, you want them to intuit, right? You want to feel surprised or wooed or whatever it is by it, but the need didn't get met. So if I was just going to wait until he intuited I wanted flowers, or intuited which flowers I like versus, you know, don't like, and then I would feel like a total B, by the way, like, for being upset about the ugly flowers. In the back of my head, I hear that shame voice, that inner critic that said, "You should just be grateful that you got flowers. Do you know how many women would like to get flowers? You should just be grateful." Mel: And so that should voice would weigh in, which would be invalidating of the need that I had as well. And so I started just, like, taking pictures off of Pinterest and sending them to him. "These are the types of flowers that I like." Right? And now it's like when I notice that maybe I haven't had flowers in a while, I might say, "Hey babe, sometime in the next like three weeks, can you bring some flowers home? It would mean a lot." Right? And is it lacking maybe in that element of surprise I wish was there? Sure. But does my need get met? Yes. And they're really beautiful flowers, right? It's showing up for myself and then he gets to feel like a hero because he's able to support, maybe hero's the wrong word, but he's in alignment. Right. He's getting to show up for me as well because I've showed him how to appropriately-. Annie: Yeah. That's, yeah. That's a great example. I love that. Mel: Well, you know. Annie: What about you? How has it changed since you- Jen: Are you looking at me? Annie: Yeah. Since you started showing up for yourself? Jen: I would just say I feel more like I'm living a life I'm supposed to live. I'm the woman I'm supposed to be and I'm in alignment with myself. I'm living a life aligned with my values. I feel I've changed the trajectory of my children's future in their own relationships because I'm showing up as a woman who, I'm normalizing a woman who asks for her needs to be met. Actually, early on when it did feel very uncomfortable for me and I wanted to hide and not do it I would do it for my children. So I have three boys and my husband also grew up with three boys and there was a very traditional model in their household and that just became their normal and my husband's normal and he wanted that normal to continue. Jen: So, these are just, you know, bringing this awareness to my children, I think, that women have needs, women take up space, moms take up space. The other, this is so small but it felt profound for me. My children had all had breakfast and exited the breakfast area. I was sitting down with my toast and coffee and my oldest son came back in for second breakfast and asked me for my toast and I was like, "I have not even eaten yet this morning and you are asking me for my toast, like I get to eat. Now it is my turn to eat. And if you would like to feed yourself again, you are welcome to go make yourself some toast." And it was just, it was just a moment for me to go, "Um, no, like I'm setting a boundary here with my child to say like, I'm taking care of me right now and I get to meet my needs before I meet your second breakfast needs." Jen: And this was just stuff I couldn't do before. I really was just a "Yes, yes sir" kind of lady. And yeah, so it's kind of those small moments, but also the big moments, in fact that I, even when I first started this business, I thought, I felt so called to start it. And then I thought I could run this business between the hours of nap time and my husband at work. And I realized at one point I was trying to, I was trying to create not just a business, but a movement and a community that did not disrupt anyone else's lives. Do you know? And I was just run ragged because I was trying to do this without interrupting anybody. So, and now today it's like, "Hold on, I do need help at with, you know, running this country, it is going to disrupt people's lives. Just like everybody, you know, just like soccer disrupts our lives and my husband's career has disrupted our lives. So, those are big things for me. But I, they just feel so normal for me now. It feels so expected. Like of course, like, that was crazy that I would think like that. Like of course my needs need to be met. Mel: Right. Annie: Mel, if you had a couple of takeaways, one or two takeaways, because what I imagine is, women are listening to the three of us talk about like, "Oh yeah, like, maybe I want to do that too," or "I should do that" or "That's a great idea." Or "I know I need to ask for this Xyz." I imagine some of them are, maybe can have the courage to like have a conversation with their partner, a friend, a mom and dad, whoever they're expressing needs with and then almost like hiding under the covers. Like, "Oh my God, I can't, like, I can't believe I just did that." And like having this, like, "Okay, I asked for it, but then actually maybe I asked for a nap, but now I'm going to actually go take the nap. Or I asked for a night out with the girls, or a night off from cooking or whatever it is." But then actually following through on it, like there's a different, there's a difference between expressing it and then actually allowing yourself to- Mel: Yeah. Annie: do the thing. What would you, how do you recommend women navigate that discomfort of actually taking action on their needs? Mel: Right. I think that's a really wonderful and important question. So, again, the story that we tell ourselves about who we are and whether or not we're allowed to have needs and whether or not we're allowed to receive, not just give, but to truly receive. We get to change that story. And so if something feels, like, so uncomfortable, distressing, intolerable. I had a friend who, who could hardly lay on a massage table. She felt so guilty, right, for being there, right, for that whole hour. We have to change the story. And so starting to soothe that discomfort, that shame, we want to expose it. Again, like Jen was saying earlier, asking ourselves, "What are the messages I have for myself about taking up space or having this need or receiving without always giving and how do I change that message?" And so for me, in my own work and the work that I do with, you know, my clients, it really is continuing to deepen into the fact that I have nothing to prove. I have nothing to earn. I have nothing to lose, but I am allowed to be human, which means that I'm allowed to have needs and that's holy and it's good and that practice of receiving it and taking up space has everything to do with the story that I tell myself and then the behaviors that I practice. And so if we want to see the behaviors in our life change, we have to always be critical then of what is the story. Does that make sense? Annie: Yeah, I'm just, like, in a trance that's, like I think I'm going to need to put that little clip right there on some sort of mantra meditation that I listen to every morning. Yeah, that's just, that's a really beautiful message and I really hope that your words and your stories and our stories give women permission that they're, you know, maybe needing to express their needs with whoever in their life. Mel: I hope so too. I hope that this inspires people to take more risk and to lean into that discomfort and, to accept that disruption is a healthy, vital part of our growth. And like Jen and you and both spoken to, healthy relationships around us will adjust, they will adapt, they will want to affirm even in the discomfort of that new pattern. And it's part of what teaches us, again, who's healthy and safe around us because if people don't allow for that growth, like us being human, right? Like having needs. If there's not an allowance for that, then, again, that's an opportunity to to be critical or curious about the types of relationships and communities that we're part of. So yeah, I hope this does inspire people to be curious and self validating, take some more risk. Annie: Absolutely. It's beautiful. It's really inspiring. It's very encouraging and optimistic. Very optimistic message too. Mel: Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on. Annie: Yeah. Thank you. Jen, anything to add before we wrap up? Jen: I just, I actually was, Mel, as you were talking, I wanted to, just on a very practical, baseline level, how we kind of have figured this out in my marriage is that, I think in some marriages you get in these patterns of, like, give, like, a "me, me, me" or it can feel like that in some ways. Like it's this person or this person rather than this person and this person. And, we, in our marriage we had a real scarcity issue around time, energy, money, and once we've been able to just flip our mindset to one of abundance, I'm sorry if this is getting too woowee here for everybody to understand that everyone's needs can be met. Jen: Like they can, we have the time, we have the energy and how we actually make that happen is we had a marriage counselor once that said, "Every family should have three things you need. You need time connecting with each other time connecting as a family and you need time connecting with yourself." And we now sit down with our calendars and as unsexy as this is, we schedule those in. Are we hitting those three things? And of course sometimes we go through seasons where it's more about the kids, like soccer season, for example, which is right now, but then we, we have to keep in mind too, we have to rotate priorities back to that balance of hitting those three things. And sometimes a season of our life might be more about connecting with self or connecting as a couple. But, it's just keeping those three things in mind all the time and actually doing the unsexy things of sitting down for the calendar and making sure that's getting scheduled in. And once we started doing that, we saw there is time, we can meet everyone's needs. It doesn't have to be this tug of war. It doesn't have to feel that way. And I think when partners initially approach that conversation, you know, based on different relationship patterns, they may have been in prior, it can feel like that. But I, you know, I think it's a family conversation and how, you know, how do we do this for everybody, right? Mel: Well, I would agree there is a real practical element to this as well, in terms of, I don't know, I don't know anybody whose needs are met 100% of the time, right?Like I don't every day like feel 100%. Jen: Right. Mel: And that takes intentionality and ongoing curiosity or evaluation for me to know what needs to prioritize on my own. So for instance, I may have a need to hang out with my girlfriends, to get some exercise, right. To have some alone time, to, you know, like, to do a project and so I'm regularly assessing with the time that I have, with the resources that are available, what need do I prioritize and meet the most today or this week or this month. Right. And so there are seasons where my alone time is the most precious need for me to protect. Mel: And so that may mean that I structure then my schedule around having alone time, which may mean that I exercise alone, right? Or that I, when I finally have time to go out, I go out alone versus other times where maybe I need to sleep more or I need time with my girls more, whatever it may be that that self awareness is key. And again, we're often discouraged as my men to be that self aware because we're so focused on our children or our careers or the other relationships we have in our life. So learning how to prioritize, again, just practical, it's a habit. . Nut it will make women, I really believe that it's going to make one and less fatigued, less resentful, less discouraged, less alone when they're able to be curious and attend to the needs that they have. So it's worth it. Jen: Yes, totally. It's worth it. Annie: Alright, Mel. We're going to wrap up. But we'd love to have you back some time. I know that there's other topics you specialize on that I just, I would love to pick your brain on. And, think you're just such- Jen: I think we've both tried to solicit you for therapy. Mel: No comment. Annie: This is how we get therapy, Jen. We just keep asking her on our podcast. Jen: I remember, I asked, I told Annie one time, I asked Mel to be my online therapist. Annie: I did too. Jen: Yeah. And then Annie was like, I did too. Mel: I had to turn you both down. Annie: Well there should be. Yeah, there you were very ethical in it. Mel: You guys are my friends, you know. Annie: Yeah, you know, there's boundaries and ethics and you know, state laws that we tried to disregard, but you honored your boundaries and you're like, "No, you need to go talk to someone about this." And we both did and it's both been great. So thank you for pointing our heads in the right direction. But, we would love to have you back, because I think there's even an element here about how, what you talked about earlier and how some of these needs can come out sideways, that I think we could dive in deeper and how this need for belonging and acceptance can come out as, you know, diet and exercise disordered behaviors even. So, thank you so much for your time. This was wonderful. Jen: Thank you, Mel. Annie: So great to talk to you. Alright, we'll talk soon. Jen: Bye. Annie: This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life year 100% in love with then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.

Could you be supervising your kids too much? Safety is important, but that doesn’t have to translate watching your child’s every move. Annie, Lauren and Jen are joined by parenting expert Allana Robinson to discuss outdoor unsupervised play, fostering independence and life skills and finding more balance as a parent.   What you’ll hear in this episode: Societal pressures around supervision and engagement of parents with their kids The amount of time working moms spend with their kids vs stay at home moms in the 50s What science says about enrichment and play Motor skill development and play How motor skill development affects reading ability Facilitating outdoor unsupervised play through relationship building in your neighborhood The value of small risks in learning to prevent injuries How children's’ injuries have changed with the introduction of “safer” equipment How to introduce unsupervised outdoor play in an age-appropriate way Boundaries and consequences - how to use them Helping kids learn to entertain themselves Judgement and the mom on the phone in the park What happens when you interrupt or correct play Isolation and the need for community of parents and of kids Zooming out from our kids’ behavior and learning to see it in context   Resources: Uncommon Sense Parenting Facebook Page Allana’s Facebook Group Ping GPS The Gift of Imperfect Parenting Your Kids Need to Play Outside Without You podcast episode (Allana Robinson) Marian Diamond Rat Enrichment Study No Child Left Alone study Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance 365 life radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. We live in a culture where parents are expected to be with or entertain their kids all the time, but we also have other responsibilities inside the house that need taking care of too, and as a result, our kiddos' outdoor playtime often gets cut short, but today's guest has solutions. She understands the importance of outdoor play for kids and wait for it, she encourages unsupervised outdoor time. Yeah, you heard me right. Alanna Robinson is an early childhood educator and parenting coach for parents of toddlers and preschoolers. She helps parents understand why their children are misbehaving and what to do about it without yelling, shaming, or using timeouts. On today's episode, Alanna, Jen, Lauren and I discuss why your kids need to play outside without you and how to begin implementing that today so your kids can play outside and you can tackle your to do list inside or you can always just relax too. But before we dive in, it's important to note that we have a diverse audience, and even though we don't have immediate solutions for everyone, we want to acknowledge that inequalities do exist and people with different socioeconomic and racial backgrounds may have a different experience with outdoor play. But as always, we don't want anyone to feel left out of this conversation. And if you want to discuss any of these topics further, we invite you to join our free private Facebook group. Healthy Habits Happy Moms. Enjoy. Lauren and Jen, welcome to the show. We have a special guest. Lauren, are you so excited? Lauren: I am so pumped. I'm so excited to learn all the things. Annie: I know. Jen, I know you're excited cause this was a guest you found and you brought and you were like, "She needs to be on the show." Jen: Yeah, I'm part of Allana's, I'm in her parenting posse Facebook group. Actually, Allana, I found out about your Facebook group in our Facebook group. Allana: Oh yeah? Jen: You were, or did someone just recommend your Facebook group to me in our Facebook group to me in our Facebook group. So group to group. So I joined yours and you have said some things that have been so profound and have changed the way I parent and discipline, which is amazing. Allana: That makes me so happy. Jen: And even though you specialize in one to six year olds, I have, well, I've been in your group for quite a while, but my boys are transitioning out of those ages. So I have a five, seven and nine year old. I find your advice still works for my seven and nine year old. And so you just scale it to their level and yeah, it works. It's amazing. And it's taken so much stress out of parenting, right? Especially with discipline because you're always like, "Is this enough? Did he learn his lesson?" Annie: So in other words, welcome to the show, Allana. How are you? Allana: Thank you so much for having me. I'm great. Annie: Good. Allana: Making me so extremely happy because you never know if what you're putting out into the world is actually landing with people and it's just, it makes me so happy to hear when it does. Jen: I don't, I just read along. So I would say I'm a lurker in your group. I've posted once, but I read. And so it's actually a good reminder for me that in even our Facebook group, I'm sure there's tons of lurkers, so nothing you say is ever really wasted. And so I read whatever you write. So whatever you're doing in that group, I'm a step behind. Annie: And then she comes to me and she's like, "Hey, you need to check her out." And then I went to your website and listen to one of your podcasts. And it was about why your kids need to play outside without you. And I was like, "Freedom!" It was amazing. Jen: That was a huge moment for me and you're so open about your own parenting practices and you're not just telling people, "Hey, here's what to do." You're like, "Here's what what you should do. And I'm doing it. And this is what happens in our day to day life." And can I say the comment that blew my mind? It was just from a couple of weeks ago. Can I say that? Am I allowed? You told everybody, someone asked when they can let their toddler play in their backyard unattended. And then all these women were giving advice, right. And it was this huge thing and all of a sudden you swooped in and you said your youngest or you start them out one and a half years old playing independently outside by themselves at one and a half. And your son has been walking down the street to the park from four years old. Allana: Yup. Jen: On his own. And I was like, "Wow." And you said the world is safer today than it's ever been. There's this perception that it's more dangerous and we actually have more things in place to keep our kids safe even though it's safer. But that's killing us as parents. And actually what it's leading to is a lot more indoor time and screen time for kids because it's actually not realistic or sustainable to expect parents to be playing or even supervising their kids 24 seven and so kids aren't even getting the minimum amount of movement that they should be just because it's actually become impossible for families to provide that. Allana: It's an impossible standard. There's also a study that was done not that long ago about the difference in the amount of time working mothers today spend with their children versus stay at home mothers that spent with their children in the 1950s. Working mothers today spend more time on average with their children than stay at home mothers did in the 1950s so this concept that we have to constantly be in their face, we have to constantly be engaged with them. We have to constantly be enriching them. Jen: Right. Allana: Putting this impossible, impossible load on us. And you know where that came from? It came from another study. There was a woman named Marian Diamond who was in the 1960s, she was doing research on rats and how big their brains got when they played versus rats who weren't given the opportunity to play. Allana: And she was a woman scientist in the 1960s and she was playing with rats. So she got ridiculed socially by her male colleagues for being the girl who plays with rats. And in order to try and make her study, her papers more serious, have a bit more aplomb, she removed the word play and she changed it to enrichment. And nobody knows this woman. Nobody has ever heard of these studies before, but they have just trickled through our societal psyche to the point where we believe that we always have to be engaged with our kids or they're going to be stupid. And what that study should have said is the more time the children play, the smarter they get, the bigger their brains get. And that tiny little change in the way that we communicated that idea has had such a prolific impact on North American society. And now we're at the point where it's breaking us to meet those expectations. And we're so terrified that if we don't, that our kids are going to be stupid. And it's, yeah. So this fear that everybody has, and it's a deep seated subconscious fear that we have to be with them all the time or they're going to be taken or stupid. And it's just, it's not sustainable. You can't do it. Jen: Can I just, I'll just add another fear. That they're going to get hurt and someone's going to call child and family services on me and my kids are gonna get taken away because I wasn't there when they fell off their bike, broke an arm. Like, you know, it's just, I'm afraid of what my neighbours are gonna think of me. Not so much anymore because my kids are a bit older. But when my kids were younger, it was, we lived near a park, I wouldn't dare have sent, you know, in my head I'm like, "I'm sure they'll be fine." My Dad used to do some very questionable, like, I mean over the line questionable things. So you know I'd always have my dad be like telling me "It's fine!" Just, but you know, you, you actually worry about your neighbors. And actually I've been on social media for several years now and shared a lot of our family during that time. I think I started after my third was born and I have had many people message me and threatened they're going to call family services on me, like awful telling me I'm an awful mother. Like, if I'm trying to share like our mom life moments, you know, like, there's accidents- Allana: That hasn't happened to me yet quite frankly, because as you said, I'm very open about what I allow my kids to do. And there's more studies. There was this study that was done in 2016 about, it's actually called No Child Left Alone. And it was a study that was done by a small group of researchers and they basically asked a large, large group of people, they gave them scenarios in which a child was left alone and every single scenario was exactly the same except for the reason why the child was left alone. So they varied the reason, like, you know, mom went to go see her lover versus, you know, mom had an emergency at work and couldn't find a babysitter. And what they found was that people assessed a higher risk to the child based on what they morally felt the reason was for leaving the child, even though all the factors were exactly the same. And so what that means is that people don't just think things are dangerous and therefore, and moral, they think things are immoral and therefore dangerous. So, and when I say to people like "I let my five year old walk to the park," they're like, "Aren't you afraid CPS is going to get called on you? Aren't you afraid that somebody?" And I'm not because I know my neighbors. And that is how we combat that, because it's a lot easier to judge somebody on their morality when you don't know them, when you can't put a face to them, when you've never spoken to them. So, and it's awkward, super awkward. But when we moved here when my son was a year and a half old. And so he was just starting outdoor play and he was, he's tiny for his age, like he looks much younger than he is. And so I actually took his hand and we went around and we walked up and down our street and we knocked on everybody's door and we introduced ourselves. And I said, you know, "My name's Allana. This is my son Logan. You might see Logan around, he likes to play outside by himself. I'm okay with that." And people were kind of like, "Okay." And it was, it was awkward as hell. And you know, we have a bit more in depth conversations with our immediate neighbours who can actually see into our yard. But so no, nobody ever, I gave my phone number to everybody and said, "Hey, if you ever see him doing something questionable that you're not sure it's safe or appropriate, please send me a text message. Like I am always, I will deal with it." And what that people call CAS because they see a child doing something that they're not sure is totally on the up and up and they don't have a touch point. They don't have anybody to go to other than the police. So if you go to your neighbors and you say, "Hey, this is who I am, this is my child, this is my phone number, please call me if you know you ever need anything," it removes that ability to have such a quick moral judgment on you because they seen your face. They've spoken to you, they've had a conversation with you and that I think because we don't know our neighbors, in this day and age we move around a lot more. We live in much larger communities. Houses are much closer together. We don't, we don't know our neighbors the way that our parents did or grandparents did. So it takes a conscious effort on our part if we're going to be sending our kids out into the world by themselves that we know we've scoped out the world for them, right? Jen: Yeah. Go ahead, Allana. Allana: Oh, I was just going to say it like, he has, he's walked to the park before and I've had neighbors text me and be like, "Hey, so your kids at the park by himself?" And I'm like, "Yup." And they're like, "Oh, you're okay with that?" "Yup. Thanks for letting me know though." And they're like, "Okay, great." And that was the end of it. And they know him, he knows his boundaries, like, and there's a certain amount of teaching to this. You don't just send your kid out the door and be like, "Off you go." There's a lot of very conscious teaching that has to happen in, right. Annie: Allana, I would love to get into, like, how do you actually implement it in a little bit? Because I know like you can't just take a kid that, like, hasn't had any unsupervised play and be like, "Okay, see ya. Have fun." But I want to back up because you have quite a bit of information about, like, the benefits. Like why does this matter to the kids and why does this matter to parents? Allana: Well, because the outdoors is basically, like, nature's occupational therapy, right? Like the rate of children in occupational therapy has soared since the 1990s and it's because the kids aren't getting outside. When you go outside, first of all, the environment is perfectly sensorially balanced. It's made for us. It's not too loud. It's not too quiet. Depending on where you live is not too hot or too cold. But you can adjust it, you know, generally it's not too bright. There's, you know, very subtle sounds that help you orient yourself in space. Like just the sounds of birds tweeting and leaves rustling helps your brain figure out where you are in space. It has, there's so many sensory experiences, mud, grass, air, everything is a sensory. The heat from the sun even is a sensory experience that helps your brain integrate the input that it gets both indoors and out. It's not controlled and there's things that you have to adapt for which you wouldn't have to adapt for inside because everything is so controlled inside. So our kids aren't getting that stimulus that hopefully we got that our parents definitely got outdoors and the result is that there's a lot of kids in schools right now who have vestibular problems and it's affecting their ability to read. It's affecting their ability to sit down and concentrate. Spinning, spinning has been shown, if you spin for five minutes, it's been shown to increase your attention span for two hours. They've removed every single merry go round. Every single spinning toy. Kids aren't allowed to spin on swings anymore because it's "dangerous." They've shortened the height of swing sets. If you look at pictures of swing sets from like the 1960s, the set itself is super, super tall and the chains are super, super long, which means they got a lot larger range of motion. When everything got scaled down and we got super safety conscious. We literally scaled down the swing sets. The chains are much shorter. They're not getting as large a range of motion. They're not getting as much stimulation. So it's vital not just to, you know, their ability to entertain themselves. It's vital to their long term learning. If you don't have a body that can integrate all the information that you're getting, then it's going to crop up down the road in lots of different ways. Jen: Wow. You know what? We moved from Vancouver, a huge city in Canada to a very small city, in the interior British Columbia, 90,000 people. And then within that community we live in like this tiny little suburb that backs on to, like a provincial park. So just hiking trails and stuff. My children's life has changed. Being so close to nature and having other children on the block, like our doorbell is ringing constantly. These kids are outside all the time, way more than when we lived in Vancouver. When we were in Vancouver I felt like I had to facilitate everything because you're in this big city you like, it's just, yeah, it was, there was just, it was very, and it was very stressful and I don't even think I realized how stressed I was until I wasn't living there anymore. And I have so much more freedom. I, you know, we even live close enough to the school that, like, boys can walk to school and walk home. And then just my free time has gone way up. Like as far as, and the load of parenting has gone way down for me living in this neighborhood and in this smaller city and I just can't believe how the quality of our life has improved. It's crazy. Allana: Totally. And like I have a lot of parents were like, "Listen, I don't have an outdoor space for my kids. Like we live in an apartment building and I can't let them go downstairs and play in even in the public green space by themselves because there's, you know, 60 back balconies that face onto it and somebody is going to take issue with it" and I always say "Some is better than none." Jen: Yes. Allana: Taking your kids to a park and take them to a park where there's no equipment. Right. Don't take them to a park where there's all these plastic climbers and stuff. Take them to a park where there's no equipment, provincial park, national park somewhere that it's more of a natural space and let them play there rather than let them climb the trees, let them walk on the logs, let them go, you know, dig in the ravines and the ditches. That's much more high quality play than the kind of contrived play that happens on swing sets and stuff like that. Jen: Yeah, they, when my kids were young, we lived in New Zealand and they are extremely progressive as far as play there. And this is kind of when all this started coming to me, because I had never heard this kind of talk in Canada and they talked a lot about the benefits of decreasing supervision and increasing risk on playgrounds because for example, our school, our playground no longer meets safety codes anymore. And so our school is paying $100,000 this spring that we all had to fundraise for to put in a new, new safe playground. And I'm kind of sitting back while everyone's very excited, great, but I'm sitting back going like, this is a hundred grand on a new safe structure that- Allana: Is going to do them a disservice. Jen: Right? And so - Allana: Yeah, I know the feeling. My son's play, my son's school, he's in junior kindergarten here in Ontario and they don't even have a playground. They don't have any, like they have a fenced in yard and there's a play structure for the kids who are in grade four and up. But anybody under that isn't allowed to use it. And we're moving schools next year. And his first question was, is there going to be something that I can climb on Jen: Right. Allana: Yeah, dude, that's like one of my top priorities. Jen: Yeah. I see just as many kids in the field next to the school. It's all fenced and stuff than I do on the playgrounds. Right. So it's and then tell me this, I don't know if this evidence based or not, but I often wonder what happens on playgrounds when the kids are bored and there's no risk anymore. Like do they turn? Like is that why they're turning on each other at recess? Allana: When there's nothing to do, you're going to create something to do. And so the nice thing like, and people will often say to me like, "How do your kids play outside for hours on end? There's nothing in your backyard." And there isn't. We literally have a yard and a shed and, but there are things in my backyard. We have lots of loose parts. We have, when my husband built that shed, he took all the off cuts and just kind of sanded down the edges generally so that he wasn't getting any splinters. And so there's, there's a ton of lumber back there. There is sticks, there's mud, there's a sand pit, we have a water table that kind of turns into a pond during the summer because nobody cleans it out. It gets very disgusting but so they have all that stuff out there and they'll take like, you know, an action figure or a car or something, one little thing and they'll build this whole playscape off of it just because toys are built with a very specific purpose in mind and kids know that they're supposed to use them that way, right? You're supposed to use a tool the way the tool is supposed to be used. We're very, very clear about that with young children. So when you give them a toy and it's only able to be used one way, they're going to get bored with it really, really quickly. And then when there's nothing to do, they're going to start disturbing. Jen: Bleeping the child psychologist. Allana: I always have an explicit warning on my own podcast because when I get passionate I run my mouth. But yeah. So, but if you don't give them those things that are closed ended to begin with, if you give them open ended stuff and you expect them to create their own world, they'll do it and it will be so immersive for them that they won't have time to make, you know, trouble. They're going to be so engaged in it.   And that's the other thing is toys generally can only be used by one or two people versus open ended materials. "Okay, you want to come play with me? Great. Go grab a stick. Right?" So that's, it's a lot easier for children to join play when there isn't set materials for them to use, when everything's very open ended because they can modify what they're doing to include more people very easily.   And to come back to kind of what you were saying about the play structure, that's another problem, right? There's usually limits on how many kids can be on the play structure, especially in school environments where they're like, you know, there can only be five kids on the play structure at a time that just hamstrings them. It cuts them off at the knees and when there's children, you know, want to come in, they can't. So keeping things and it's just really, the science across the board just says "Back off! Back off and they'll figure it out. That's what their brains are designed to do." Jen: Right. And that's really what builds a resilient person. Right? They can figure it out in a moment. Right. The other thing that had been talked about in New Zealand I remember is as playgrounds were becoming more safe, they were not just less risky as in, "Ooh, am I going to fall? Or it was also, they were less physically risky in that it didn't require as much strength to go over these different spots in the park. So the upper body strength in children is coming down big time because they are taking out monkey bars. They're taking, you know, they're taking out all these upper body things." Allana: Exactly. Because you've got children in occupational therapy to build that up because they're not naturally getting it, they're not weight bearing. I have so many clients who their child is in kindergarten and first of all they're asking these kindergarten kids to read and write when that's not developmentally appropriate, but they also can't physically do it because they don't have the strength in their muscles to do it. Like fine motor skills starting in your shoulder and they work their way down. Jen: Right. Right. Allana: If you don't use your gross motor skills. You can't use your fine motor skills when you need to. So yeah. And the other thing about reducing risk is that they're reducing small injuries, but the injuries that do happen are much larger. Children are breaking bones more frequently. They're, you know, having huge concussions when they do, because their vestibular system is so underdeveloped, they don't know the limits of their body. And so when they go to try and do something new, they can't tell if they can actually do it or not. Jen: Right. Because they've had no lower level risk that warns them Allana: They weren't able to build up to it. Jen: Amen. Yeah. Allana: We've reduced, you know, cuts, scrapes, minor stitches and we've turned that into breaks and concussions and it's, ask any occupational therapist and they'll tell you that a lot of these things are very easily solved just by sending them outside to play. Jen: Right. That's so interesting to just reframing it, right? These things are good. Like this is good for your kids to make these mistakes, have these small falls. None of them are life threatening, but they're teaching them about their environment and saving them from future. An analogy to that, actually, I posted a insta story a year ago with my oldest son on a little mini quad at his grandparents' farm and he was doing donuts and it was all dusty and I got so many from women that were like, "I would never let my child do that." And he had an accident that summer. He bumped into the side of his uncle's truck and he flew and hit his chest on the handlebars and it really hurt him and it really scared him. I mean, he's wearing a helmet and we've got that safety stuff. And I was like, "Good." I could see the donuts were getting a little out of control. I could see that kid needed some kind of little bump to remind him that he is on a machine and it happened and it was good. And he is much more safe now. And I guess, I guess what, and also my dad's a farmer, so I grew up in, you know, "dangerous" environment of, like, just roaming around a farm and yeah. And it's like, I see now how good that is, but you know, and I moved to the city and I think of all these city kids getting licenses at 16 and like, you know, we're a little, when you grew up on a farm, you're just driving, you drive, right? Like you drive when your dad's lap or you, you're helping, you know, you're way too young. You're 12 years old and you're helping move trucks from one field to another. And then I think of all these city kids getting their licenses and it's like that's crazy that they have no driving experience. And you know what I mean? So it's like- Allana: I was reading something the other day about how it's taking longer. Like when I turned 16 almost all my friends got their license on the first try. And apparently there's some statistics now coming out that it's taking teenagers longer to learn to drive because they're having to develop vestibular and proprioceptive skills that they didn't as a child. And so they're not able to judge where their car is in space. Jen: Oh gosh, that's so interesting. Allana: So yeah, it's, this isn't just about mom getting some breathing time of being able to clean the kitchen without anybody crawling up their back and about the kids being able to entertain themselves. These skills that they develop, that looks like they're doing absolutely nothing are so important. And they will follow them for the rest of their lives. And it's just, it frustrates me so much. Jen: Lauren had a question, I think. Allana: Oh yeah, Lauren, did you have something? Lauren: Yes. Can I, can I? Hello? Annie: Hi. Welcome to the show. Lauren: Hi, I'm over here. I'm trying to get a word in next to Jen. Annie: Good luck. Jen: Classic little little sister moment. Lauren: So I love all of this. Can I ask some practical questions selfishly that hopefully will benefit all of our listeners? I have a five year old and a one year old and I'm wondering like, okay, my one and a half year old obviously is probably going to have different boundaries than a five year old, but the five year old, I mean, I let her play outside sometimes, but I'm usually watching her through like the window and whatever. Like so what are, how do I introduce this concept to both of them in age appropriate ways? Allana: So the five year old, as you said, it's going to have a much longer leash than the one and a half year old. If you have fenced space, it's, that's easiest because it's easiest for us to back off. But generally what I do with little kids is I start by being outside with them but not being engaged with them. So like blowing snow in the driveway. They can't participate in that, but they can be outside while we're doing it, weeding the garden, they might join in but they're going to get bored and they're going to go do something else. Doing things that need to be done anyways, but, and that we're around, but we're not focused on them. We're focused on something else. So that's like step one is generally just getting them used to the idea that you're not going to be watching them all the time. And then step two of that is starting that way and then being like, okay, I'm going to go in and go to the bathroom. I'm going to go in and make dinner. And just gradually lengthening the amount of time that you go in at the end of your play time so that they're not going from "I'm inside and supervised, to I'm outside and not supervised." There's a buildup to that and it's amazing how, like, children are very intuitive. So if we have concerns, if we're scared of them doing something, they're going to pick up on that very quickly. Their limbic system is very connected to ours and our inter brain is going to go, "You're not safe!" And so they're not going to feel safe. So it's a workup for us too, right? We need to feel confident and comfortable leaving our kids alone. So those are steps one and two generally for me is just being outside, not engaged with them but being outside with them. And then at the end of that starting to introduce, I can go inside and you don't have to come with me. And once you kind of work up to a good chunk of time, then you can start sending them out by themselves and lengthening that amount of time so that you're like, "Okay, well, you go out and I'll meet you there. Like I'm just going to go and put this in the oven and then I'll be outside." And starting to get them used to going outside without you following behind them. And then you can go out again, do something else, not be engaged with them, but be around and then go back inside. So you're kind of working it from either end rather than just sending them out on their own. And that's generally a nice good workup for kids. They don't feel scared because they know you're coming, you know that you're not having to like peek through the window to keep an eye on them either because they can sense that too. Windows don't block limbic resonance. Lauren: Do you have tips if your yard is not fenced in, like, do you give them ahead of time, like, boundaries? Allana: Absolutely. So my favorite tool for this is go to Home Depot or Lowe's and grab some of that neon paint that they mark gas lines with when you call and be like, "Hey, I'm going to dig in my yard." And then somebody comes by and like Mark's all your gas lines so you don't hit a gas line when you dig. Go and get that and spray your property line. And I do that every spring with my two, because I have a two and a half year old. And so last year he was a year and a half and he wants to play in the front yard with his big brother, but there's no barrier in the front. So he was getting really angry because my big can let himself in and out of the backyard and the little one can't and he'd be so mad when my big one would leave him in the backyard. So I did. I went and I got the orange paint and I sprayed, just a line right down our ditch and down either side of our front yard. It doesn't look great, but when you mow the grass goes away and he, and I was like, "Listen, you cannot cross the orange line without mummy or daddy." And we walked the orange line and I showed him, "Yes, no, you cannot go on this other side." And it did. We had to work up to it Again, starting with me being outside with them and keeping an eye on them, but not engaged with them, reminding him that he can't cross that line and just very gradually backing away from him and letting him have more ownership over that. Now we can go just about anywhere. Like we have a cottage with a waterfront that we go to in the summer and now I can like walk up and like spray that line along the waterfront and I'm like, you can't cross the dark line- Jen: Take it to your hotel. Annie: The restaurant. Jen: The restaurant play here, don't worry, you can mow it out. Allana: I've done it with orange electric. Try and pick a color and stick to it because kids tend to get that, like, color association. But I've done it with orange electrical tape, like, we were at, actually just this last week, my big one was hospitalized and we were in this waiting room, like, it was like an examination room with the door didn't close. It was kind of like just a triage kind of space. And my little one was kept trying to escape and I busted out my roll of orange electrical tape and put on a hard line on the doorway and I was like, you can't cross the orange line. And he was like, "Okay." Jen: That's so awesome. Annie: it is. Allana: At this point that he's like, "No, we don't cross orange lines," causes problems when they're like, "Here you can go!" Like where were we? We were at Wonderland or something like that last summer and there was, like, a line on the ground to mark where you can't cross to go before you go on a ride. And they were like "Come!" and he was like, "Uh uh, we don't cross orange lines." Annie: So I have a feisty two and a half year old and I'm picturing this like it, like I'm, this is not that I don't believe you, but I mean- Allana: It's not an overnight thing. Annie: Yeah. I'm picturing me, like, getting out, like, rope or a spray can and like her just laughing in my face like, "Yeah, okay, mom. Right." Allana: Right. Well and they do. But that's the thing where you have to very consistently redirect them back to the other side. And- Annie: What have you used as appropriate consequences? Like do you say, like, "Sorry, we can't play outside then if you-" Allana: Yeah, well if you can't, so I often say like "If I can't trust you to stay on this side of the orange line, then we're going to have to go inside. Or if I can't trust you to go stay on this side of the orange line, we're going to have to go in the backyard that's fenced" and, or "if I can't trust you to be playing up" like often when I was starting to do this with him, I would be washing my car because my husband's a car nut and so it makes him very happy when I wash my car frequently. So I was like, all right, this makes him happy. This makes me happy. We're going to wash the car while the kids play in the front yard. And like, I mean it's nice when you have an older child who gets to be the tattle tale, but it was like, "Mom, Owie's going into the road" and I would bring him back. "If you can't stay on this side of the orange line, then you're going to have to come and sit in the car." And he was like, "Uh un." And I was like, "Yeah." And it doesn't take very many times of, like, "Hey," as long as you tell them what is going to happen before it happens. Like you can't spring it on them and be like, "Nope, if can't stay on this side of the orange line I'm going to strap you into your car seat." And then they're like, "Well, I didn't know that was what was on the line." Jen: That's actually, this is another huge takeaway I've gotten from your group is the whole concept of natural consequences, like, life changing. We could do a whole other podcast on it and I'm sure people can find more about it on your podcast. But I, it's just like brought my chill level into a normal range around my kids. And, you know, even, it was in your group, it was something about, it was just like this, right? So it's like you lay out the boundary, you tell them what the consequence is and it's a natural consequence. So it's so it's not like disciplining anymore, right? Allana: Exactly. Annie: It's about getting them to connect to the consequences of their actions. Allana: and kids can tell when we're pulling a power trip, right? Timeouts all that stuff. They know when we're like, "No, I'm just doing this because I can." And so, like, things with, "Okay, if you can't stay on this side of the orange line," the best logical consequence for that would be, "Okay, well then you need to go into the gated area." Like that's, he doesn't want that because he knows his big brother's not in the gated area. He knows that, you know, he wants to be in the front with us. And so that creates a consciousness in him that he's like, "Okay, I need to think critically about this. I'm not going to," and they will test. Kids are scientists. They use the scientific method with much more accuracy than any adult. And they will have a theory and they will test every variable possible, which is why I say, like, try and keep the color consistent because like my son, we were at my mom's once and she didn't have any orange paint, so I busted out some pink. Pink apparently doesn't have the same staying power. It is not an orange line. Jen: Oh my kids would do that. Allana: Because right. Anytime you introduce a variable, they have to test it. They have to, they're so inquisitive. They are scientific little minds. So, and that's where you have extinction bursts where they're like, "Okay, this was the limit before and now it's, there's a new limit. How hard do I have to push until we go back to the old limit?" So staying consistent really is the key to the whole but yeah, keeping, I've lost my train of thought now. Jen: You're amazing. Like you, it's like you're in a child's brain and the way you explain things is so fantastic. I can't wait to send everybody to your podcast and you just, and then suddenly my anxiety in parenting is just gone when I listen to you because I know I'm doing the right thing and it will work out. Right. You sometimes feel like you're just trying whatever, just try it, see what works. But I just have this, like, reassurance from you that it's just consistency. Allana: it's so much easier to let go when you know what's going on under the hood and you know how their brains work. And that's, like, my whole philosophy is if you can understand how your child's brain works, then you can work with it instead of against it. And so many of the conventional parenting wisdom is working against their brain. Annie: Right? Right. Jen: Yeah. Allana: Dominant. It's trying to exert dominance. Jen: Then you get struggles and they feel, yeah, it's- Allana: They feel controlled and nobody likes to feel controlled. You push back and they feel like they're being manipulated and treated like subhuman. So when we just treat our kids like we would not how we would treat an adult, but when we are give them that kind of respect, it's amazing how quickly they come onside. It really is. Annie: And I think from like a parenting perspective, hearing you as an expert in this field, pun intended, it's almost permission giving to say like, "It's fine. Go inside, go to the bathroom, put a frozen pizza in the oven. I mean that's what I would do. Like make a phone call, whatever. There'll be okay. And they need it. It's not just for you." It's, like, it just helps me like do this guilt-free. Allana: Totally. And like I've had clients with 11 year olds who will still make their 11 year old come in from the backyard when they need to go pee. Like when you go to the bathroom. Jen: Like that thread in the group before you came in and laid it down with everybody. I was like, "Who are these people?" Like how long are you gonna be like basically- Allana: And the funny thing. It's like my babysitter, my main babysitter is 11 years old. And when I tell people that they're like, "What?" They're like, "But you don't her alone with them." And I'm like, "Oh yes I do. She can." My 11 year old babysitter can feed my children dinner, bath them and get them in bed and an hour and a half flat. I can't do that. Jen: That's the other thing is that eventually we're working up or my son turns 10 this summer and we've kind of given him the, when you are 10 we will start leaving you a home alone. Like if I'm popping out for groceries or whatever. And it's this thing he's looking forward to and that's kind of the law here. Just so everybody knows. I know the law's different in different areas. But that is, we are law abiding citizens anyways. And so if you can't leave your child, like it has to start happening at some point, right? On a gradual basis. You can't be micromanaging your kid. And then he turns 10 or 11 or 12 and then you go, "Okay, we're leaving you alone." Allana: We don't give children any ability to experience minor risk and then they turn 18 and we're like, "Go out and innovate." Jen: Yeah. Go live alone. Annie: This sounds like- Allana: And they're like, "I've never done this in my entire life. You can't start with, like, throwing them out the door. Jen: And then they struggle. Right. And mental health issues in freshmen university students are just skyrocketing. Allana: Of course, living with their parents for longer and longer because they just don't have- Jen: They're not self sufficient. Allana: Yeah, you don't know how to cope without somebody micromanaging you and telling you what to do all the time. And then when people are like, "Make good decisions," you're like, "I don't know what that means." Because you have no. Jen: Yeah. Allana: Litmus test for it. So it's, it really is, you know, when people say early childhood is so important, it is the foundation for your child's entire life. And if you can't start trusting them when they're four with little tiny responsibilities, how are you going to trust them when they're 16, 17- Jen: Right. Yeah. The other thing I learned from you Allana that I wanted to say was about this bored thing. Cause I think that's the next thing, right? So, okay, your kids are playing alone, but they come back and they're like, "I am bored." I learned this from you in your group. You said it is not your job to entertain your child. And I, so that's just what I say to them. Now they come to me and say they're bored. I'm saying "That's not my job to find something for you to do. Like you, go find something to do." Allana: You are not a clown. You are not the family cruise director. Jen: Right. Sometimes I'll say, "Here's your options. You know, you can get out the coloring stuff. You can go out and jump on the trampoline" or I'll give some options to "Go get your bikes, go down to your friend's house, see if he wants to play." But I tell them all the time that "I am not here to entertain you. That is not my job." And that's been such a revolutionary thing for me too, because I, you know, you feel the pressure around that. Allana: Well, exactly. And that comes again to that pressure of they need to be enriched 24 seven if we want them to be smart. And that the only person that's available to enrich them is me so I have to be constantly engaged with my child and it's just not true. In fact, it's damaging. Jen: Right, right. Lauren: So I have my one and a half year old, like, he'll go play by himself, like, no big deal. But my five year old has always been, she wants to play with somebody. Do you have any tips for like training that'd be like you can, like, she'll go play for a little bit but it's, it's just she's completely different than my one and a half year old and she seems to only want to play with me. Jen: Or what about an only child? Like people that have one child? Allana: Only children I find are actually the best at entertaining themselves because they have no expectation. Like, even my older son is super good. He's really good at playing by himself because he had to, he had nobody to play with. My younger one is not so good at playing by himself because he's always had big brother being his cruise director. I actually find only children are usually very good at playing by themselves. It's not usually such an issue with them. There are children who are just, they're extroverted. They take energy from being around other people. Whereas introverts, that's expending energy, right? So it's a difference in what we find stressful. And so for kids then that's typically how I find kids who are extroverts is when they're like, they always want to be with someone. I'm like, "That's because that refills their tank. That's actually calming. Jen: Interesting. Allana: Versus children who are spending energy. So for them it's actually more calming to have people around and to be engaged with people. And these are the people who when they're in their 20s want to live in those houses with like 40 other people and they're like, "This is fun." And you're like, "No, that's stress. Stress." Jen: Annie, sorry. Annie's been waiting. She's got a question. Annie: No, no, no, no. Jen: She'll try to shut us down, I know it. Annie: I'm giggling because I am an only child and like- Jen: Oh right. Annie: But also, but I'm also an extrovert, so I grew up in a house where, and this might've just been a reflection of my mother and father who both worked full time. And I know that they were just tired when they came home from work, but I always got to have friends over. But I grew up, this supports kind of what you're saying. I grew up in a neighborhood where my, you know, I had three or four best friends within a block of, and we would just skip through the yard to get to, cut through yard backyards to go to the other person's house. And it was like, you just come home when the street lights turned on. That was like our guide and I was, you know, that was probably fifth or sixth grade, but that was there, you know, get on your bikes and you just go, you, you, and, and as long as you're home, by the time the street lights come on, like, we're good. Jen: I'm at the point where I'm like, when my kids are hungry, they'll come home. Like I trust. I've come to trust it. And because you're building this relationship, right, you give them more boundaries and more boundaries and then you as a parent, you trust. You know, it's always a little, once you give them a little more, then it's another trust thing. But then, you know, I've built, like, in our neighborhood with my three kids, we just, there's a lot of trust there with my kids now. And maybe I do, maybe I have my kids have more free reign than some of my neighbors, but I have trust there and I know my kids will get hungry eventually and they will come home and we just, it just works. Allana: Totally. And even like people will say to me like, how can you let your five year old go down the street? Aren't you scared he's gonna get hurt and not be able to tell you or you know that somebody's going to snatch him? First of all, my child is usually low jacked with a GPS. So we do live in 2018, these devices exist. Jen: Oh, you actually have a gps on your son? Annie: I actually have a gps on my son. It's the size of about a quarter or a looney. Jen: What do you wear? Can you tell us about that? Where you put it, how you? Allana: Yeah, so it's just I have, you know, those, tags that they put on merchandise in stores so that when you walk out, if you don't pay for it, it'll beep and flash and all that stuff. So those have a pin that need to be removed with a magnet. Right. So I have just a little fabric pouch. GPS goes in the pouch and it gets pinned to his, he's usually wearing cargo shorts. So we put it inside the cargo pocket and we pin it in there so he can't lose it. Nobody can take it off of him unless they removed his pants. And- Jen: And that's connected to your phone? Allana: It's connected to my phone. It doesn't track him. It just tells me where he is, where the gps is in that moment when I go to look at it. So I can tell if he's, and it's accurate to about 20 meters, so I can tell if he's in the general area that I expect him to be in. It also has the ability to send an SOS. So he just pushes on it and it'll alert my phone that he needs help so then I can go find him. Jen: What brand is this? Could you share that with our- Allana: Yeah, it's called a Ping gps. Jen: Wow. I am getting three. Allana: It is awesome. I love it. There are about 80 bucks and then they cost about five bucks a month US to run. But you can't get a cell phone plan- Jen: Look at Lauren writing. Taking notes. Lauren: Ping GPS. Jen: Lauren lives on a beautiful acreage with a huge, that's why she was asking about the fencing and stuff for kids. She always posts on Instagram these beautiful pictures of her back- Lauren: Snow covered. Jen: Yeah, it's November, but it's gorgeous. So, these would be very handy for you, hey, for your- Allana: Yeah. Jen: Country kids. Allana: It also takes off a little bit of that, you know, CAS call pressure- Jen: What if? Allana: Everybody's so scared that somebody is going to go, "You don't know where your kid is" and you're going to go, "You're right. I don't." Whereas if somebody comes to me and says, "You don't know where your kid is," I can go "Actually, he's within 20 meters of-" Jen: Right, right. Allana: The whole like, and even, I was talking about this on my personal Facebook page where I was sharing that No Child Left Alone Study with just with my friends cause somebody had asked about it and my aunt was actually like, well, like she was the perfect example of where you're not judging something based on the actual risk factors. She was "Never be too careful and the world is a dangerous place." And I was like, but it's not based on the statistics, based on the information we have, it's not. Jen: Right. Allana: We were talking about it because as you said, you know, we always give them those incrementally larger responsibilities. My five year old has wanted to walk to the bus by himself in the morning for school, for months now. And the other day he said to me, "Mommy, please, can I have the responsibility to walk to the bus all by myself?" Well, I can see his bus stop from my front window. It's literally two doors down. Our neighbors all know him. My neighbor who lives beside me is on maternity leave so she's watching him out the front door. She's always texting in the morning like "Good morning," I'm being watched. So I know she's watching him too and she's one house closer to him and I was like, I really had no reason to say no to him other than people who don't know you might think you're too stupid because you're too young. That's not a good enough reason for me. So I let them walk to the bus by himself and one of my neighbors took offence and called the bus company and was like, "I don't think this is okay." And they called me and I was like, "That's their problem." Jen: Right? Totally. Good for you girl. Look at you go. Allana: He's, you say, and it's again, we're, I'm pretty sure the directives we get next year are going to be rewritten because their directive saying that children need to be supervised at the bus stop. I'm like, that literally means they need to be watched. And I was watching him. It doesn't say they need chaperones. So we need to start kind of advocating on the competence of our children too because so many people are so quick to say, "Well, they're five, they're stupid" and no, like you know what your child is capable of and even what they're incapable of and nobody knows your kid like you do. So if you genuinely don't feel like your child can handle walking to the park by themselves because they don't have the awareness of people around them. They're not able to walk on the side of the road. Like I didn't just send my five year old to the park, we walked to the park together for many, many times, almost the entire summer. You know, I would send him to the park and I would stand at the end of the driveway and watch him walk to the park and then I would follow him with his brother. And we would do the same in reverse and like, again, you work up to it so you have to know your child's competency level before you, you try and give them a responsibility, right? Annie: I find it really inspiring and encouraging to listen to you Allana. Like just own your choices even with some pushback from spectators or neighbors or family because I would have, I think that that's something that I get a little nervous about too is, like, my kids, my two oldest run the neighborhood and I really don't, like, I trust them. They've haven't violated my trust. Knock on wood, I have no reason to second guess them that they're going to come home and they're going to be where they are and, but I am always like, what do other people think? Do other people, like, know that like they're okay and that we've had these talks and like there's just this fear of judgment or fear of like getting criticized and then they- Jen: They think you're a bad mom. Allana: Or that I'm just lazy. Jen: It comes down to that in so many situations of decisions we're making and Annie and Lauren and I talk about this around nutrition all the time, right? So it's like you're scared. Do they think I'm a bad mom? Like it's just this constant thing. Allana: And it's that moral judgment again, right? Like do they think that I'm being, that they're doing this because I'm lazy? Does that make them think that they're at a greater risk than they actually are? Annie: I just want to sit on my couch sometimes, and like, don't move. Jen: I do.The thing is, and this, I mean you see it too, like, if you want to take your kids to a park and sit on your phone, I'm like, do it. And I see these posts on Facebook. They're like the mom who just sat on her phone or her kids had to play by themselves and the child was shouting, "Mom, watch me." And the mom didn't look up. I'm like, the child will live, like- Allana: Our parents didn't do that for us. Jen: No. And sometimes it's all the mom has in her day to just be chilled out. Like I had three kids in four years and we lived overseas. So no family and in New Zealand, a lovely thing about New Zealand too is that all their playgrounds are gated. So, and you can't get out. So I could literally go in and just sit and just Facebook or read or whatever, just ignore them. And that was the only time I had and I'm all the power to ya, girl if that's what I'm on. If I see a mom with- Allana: On her phone and I got in it last summer with the mom, cause I do the exact same thing. I bring my laptop generally and I will tether to my phone and like work at the park so that my oldest, my youngest kid run around and ours has a fence but it's not a closed off fence. So I mean if they want to, they can escape. I've walked the perimeter with the many times we've talked about what the boundaries are. If my little one, I've showed him there is a gate, it's open, but that means it's a doorway and you need to stay inside the park or we're going to have to go home and he wants to play. And every once in a while I'll just shout out like "Cubs, where are you?" because we call them the bears and they'll go, "Here, here!" And I'll go, "Great!" And I don't even look up as long as I can hear them I know that they're close. And this woman was like, "Excuse me, do you know what your son is doing?" And I looked up and he was climbing and I was like "On the play structure?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "We're at a park." That's what he's supposed to be doing. And she's like, "But you didn't know that you had to look." And I was like, "That's generally how sighted people determine information. Yes." She was so angry because I didn't have my eyes glued to his butt the whole time. Jen: Oh this busy bodyness is just killing us. Annie: Yeah. Allana: Kids don't need us to be in their face 24 seven. They need the space to play. And in fact, if you're playing with your kid and you're not into it, it removes all benefit of play for them. Both, all the people who are playing something need to be in a place state in order for the play to be beneficial. One person or group that isn't enjoying the play removes all the benefits of play for every single person in that group. So if your kid is forcing you to play trucks with them and you're like, "Oh my God, when is it nap time, I don't want to be here." They're not actually getting the benefit of you playing with them. Jen: Yeah, that's so interesting. Allana: So it's better to find something that you actually enjoy doing with your child and do that so that you're both in a play state, it's a frame of mind. It's not an action. Jen: Brene Brown has in her parenting book The Gift of Imperfect Parenting. They sat down as a family and made a list of things that fill everybody's cups and found the common ones and then that's what they focus their family time around now. And I thought, I thought it was such a good idea, right? Like it's mind. So Brenay Brown said it's mind numbing to play board games for herself and so she's just done. She's not doing it anymore. I was like, "Wow, it's so nice to hear someone like you give me permission to not do these things that I don't like doing with my kids. And I don't, I don't do things I don't like with my kids anymore either." Allana: Like I swim with my kids. That's what I enjoy doing. So we go swimming once or twice a week and we get in our mommy and kid time and that's great. Other than that, I'm like, "Please go do something else." And they're like- Jen: Raise yourselves. Allana: "How are you running a business at home? Mostly by yourself. Two little boys at home." And I mean, my oldest is in JK but he only goes three days a week. And I'm like, because they play by themselves. They go, I feed them breakfast, then I'm like, "Okay, play time." And they go and play in the basement and I'd go work and then they come up when they get hungry and I feed them and the little one goes down for a nap and the big one goes downstairs and play some more and it just gives you so much more freedom. It's actually better for their brain. Jen: And you're happier as a parent, right, having some time. And I guess before we wrap this up, I want to, you know, I just, I guess it's to, it's nice to let parents know that there is detrimental effects to your child by over supervising them, right? So just saying like there's measurable detrimental effects to these kids. Allana: Children who are closely supervised during their play will hamstring their own play. They won't allow themselves to go into a full play state because they're anticipating being interrupted or corrected. Jen: Oh interesting. Allana: So if you are constantly supervising your child's play, they probably aren't getting the benefit of their own play either. Even if you're not playing with them because they're anticipating having you go, "You can't do that. Don't use that that way. That's a firetruck, not a helicopter." And they're not allowing themselves to go into that fully immersed play state where all those benefits of play, all the problem solving and executive functioning skills and all that really get used in that play state. They keep their play very, very surface level when they're being supervised closely. Lauren: That's interesting because I find myself, I can't not correct when they're in view. So I put them out of view. I'm like, "Go in the playroom and play because when you are doing this, I cannot help myself but say stop it." Jen: It's like when I bake with my kids. I, like, can't handle cooking or baking with my kids because I, I just am like, "Don't do that. That's wrong. You're going to break it!" Allana: My mom's a pastry chef and God bless her, she can and I'm like, "Okay, that is your thing, Nana." She is totally into the whole cooking thing. And you know he got all these little, like, real knives and stuff, but they're small so that he can handle them. And the other day we were making, just chopping up potatoes for like roasted potatoes for dinner and he was like making these, like, really, like, random sized chunks. And I was like, "Okay, you're too," Jen: You're like twitchy about it. Allana: One inch cubes, not two, you're holding a knife and you're doing well. You're not killing yourself. Annie: Oh, that's awesome. So a lot of this is, I mean, it's not just about retraining kids to do this. It could be about retraining yourself too, or both or both depending on what you're kind of used to and what your goals are. And, but either way, I mean, just to summarize, this is good for both sides. Both parties, both parents, caregivers and kids when they have unsupervised specifically outside, but unsupervised play. So- Allana: Absolutely. And so many parents, so many moms express that guilt to me cause they're like, "I feel bad making the play by themselves. I feel bad that I'm not engaged with them. I feel super guilty." And it's like, "This isn't about you. This is about them." And it's, yes, it benefits you as well and that's nice, but this really is about them. This is for them. And it takes that guilt away. You don't have to feel bad for making your kids play by themselves. It's good for them. Jen: I want to just kind of leave us with this vision. I'm going to tell you something that really struck me when my kids were younger and was an eye opener moment for me actually. And I was watching, I was in a hard place with motherhood, right? Like these three kids under five, oh my gosh, under four actually. And I was watching The Good Shepherd and it's an old movie that takes place in the fifties. It has Matt Damon and Angelina Jolie and there's this scene where Matt Damon, he's coming home at the end of the day and all, and he's walking up to the house. It was a well researched scene and this is not even what the scene was about. It's just something that I noticed. The moms were all grouped together chatting in one person's front yard and they were all smoking as they would be in the 50s and kids were running everywhere. And I like had this pain in my chest when I saw it because it reminded me of how lonely I was and how parenting must've been so differently back then. Different back then. And not just that, I think moms are more lonely now. It's that kids are more lonely now in a way too, right. Because we are very isolated inside the homes and yeah, I just quite, I really quite crave are return to that and I feel like we've kind of found it in our new neighborhood and like it's just easier and simpler and yeah. Allana: I think, I think once we realize that what children do naturally is, there's generally a reason behind it. We don't tend to trust kids in what they're doing. We want to, we think we know better, but children know what they need and they'll do what they need. And once you can start to trust your kids that way and realize that what they're doing, whether it's a behavior, even if it's a maladaptive behavior, even if it's like what they're playing, if it makes no sense to you, children are doing things for a reason. There is never a child that is doing something just because they feel like it. Like there's never not a reason behind something that a child does. And so when you can trust that and trust that your child is doing what they need, it's so freeing for us. And it does allow us to go back to that, you know, children are allowed to be rambunctious. They're allowed to get hurt, they're allowed to be unsupervised. And you know, people keep thinking, "Oh well, you know, lots of, you know, the good old days didn't exist." Well, no, but we can bring them back in a modern way that is safe and comfortable for everybody. It doesn't have to be the way it was in the fifties for it to be beneficial. Jen: Right. We have tape and our GPSes. Allana: Exactly. That was a hard thing for me because I was like, I have a Bluetooth tracker on every, on my keys and my wallet. Even on my car. I have ev

Do you ever feel like you would be more successful in your journey to better health if you had more willpower and motivation? Does it feel like everyone else has more willpower and motivation than you? Does it seem like all these changes are more difficult for you than other people? You’re going to want to tune in for this conversation with Annie and Jen for the truth about willpower, motivation and what action you can take to feel more successful.   What you’ll hear in this episode: The definition of willpower How decision fatigue impacts the quality of choices we make What’s the difference between motivation and willpower? How preparation sets you up for success Meal planning - why it can be helpful What to do when you can’t rely on motivation and willpower How waiting for motivation gets in the way of change that matters to us The magic in boredom The Habit Hangover - what is it? What keeps successful people going What a study of soda and water in a hospital teaches us about habits How to curate your environment for success   Resources: Atomic Habits by James Clear 53: Secrets From The Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann Secrets From The Eating Lab Arms Like Annie Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy and confident in their bodies, on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Welcome to Balance365 Life radio. Have you ever felt like if you just had more willpower, self control or motivation, you would finally be able to reach your goals? We get it. We hear this a lot and it's no wonder. The diet and fitness industry have led us to believe that willpower and control are characteristics of driven, successful, healthy individuals. And if we just had more, we wouldn't struggle. But is that all we need? Do we really just need more self control? And if so, how do I get it? Cause sign me up! On today's episode, Jen and I dive into the theories and the truth behind willpower, motivation and self control and offer tried and true practical strategies to help you stay on track with your goals even when you're just not feeling up to it. And by the way, if you want to continue this discussion on willpower, motivation, and self control, we invite you to join our free private Facebook group. Healthy Habits, Happy Moms. See you on the inside. Jen, how are you? Jen: Good, how are you? Annie: I'm great. We are talking about willpower and motivation today, which is something that comes up so frequently in our community. Like how do I get more motivation? How do I get more willpower? Right? We hear this a lot. Jen: Yeah and everywhere, right? Even the messages we get out of the fitness industry talks about getting motivated and having more willpower. And sometimes those phrases are used in a way that can feel really hurtful, right? Like you're doing something wrong and everybody else, everybody else around you seems to be very motivated and have a lot of willpower and you feel like it's something you lack. Annie: Right? And if you just had that, if you had willpower and determination and motivation and self discipline, then you could achieve anything. Jen: Right? And how many times have we heard, "I just have no willpower and that's my downfall. No willpower." Annie: Right? Yeah. And so we've done a fair amount of investigation into what really is behind willpower, what's behind motivation, what's behind self discipline? Do you really just need more of it? Because that is the message. Like you said, that we've been sold by the fitness industry that like, "Hey, if you just stick to this thing, if you can just have enough self discipline and motivation to stick to this plan, then you'll achieve your goals." And so then that becomes a way in which people feel like they're feeling like, "Oh, I did this." Like you said, "I'm wrong. I'm a failure. I'm lacking in this element of my life and everyone else is doing it. And I'm not." And is there any truth behind that? And I think what we're going to share today might surprise some people. Jen: Yes. Annie: Foreshadowing. Jen: Yes. Annie: And I want to say, like, you've done a lot of writing on this too because a lot of this is in the first phase of our Balance365 programming called Diet Deprogramming. Jen: Yes. Yeah. Annie: And that's the phase in which we kind of challenge, not kind of, we challenge some of the beliefs that you might hold sold to you by the diet and fitness industry, right? Jen: Yes. And the science around willpower and motivation is very heavy. And so I think today we're going to try talk about it in less scientific but more practical terms. Annie: Yeah. Jen: That make sense to everyone. And they can implement in their lives immediately. Annie: Well, yeah, I mean, we're not researchers! Jen: That's the goal! Annie: I mean, I like to think that I'm pretty smart, but definitely not researcher level. Okay. So let's start with the definition of willpower. Let's just get really clear on that. And the definition of willpower is the ability to exert control and resist impulses. And the truth is that we all have varying degrees of willpower. And on one end of the spectrum you'll have people with almost perfect willpower. And on the other end of the spectrum, you'll have people with almost no willpower. And the vast majority of us are- Jen: Somewhere in the middle. Annie: And like Jen said, there have been a lot of studies done on willpower and a lot of theories and it's kind of an ongoing process and you might find some that kind of disagree with each other. So like Jen said, we're just trying to give you more practical advice on how you can reach your goals without maybe relying on willpower and what is clear is that one of our mentors, Steven Michael Ledbetter, he is an expert in the science of human behavior. It's said that people reporting high levels of fatigue are the ones whose lives require high levels of mental energy expenditure. And do you want to give us that marriage example that you share in Diet deprogramming? Can you walk us through that and so we can see what Steven Michael Ledbetter says applies to real life. Jen: Okay. So yes. So, you had just talked about how people who have high levels of fatigue are the ones whose lives require high levels of mental energy expenditure. So this might include having to make many small decisions or choose between similar options all day long, and so what this, what we talk about in diet deprogramming as we compare two people. We've got a stay at home dad and a working mom and I put out this situation where a working mom, she gets up early kind of before anyone else is awake and she has some quiet time, has her breakfast and then she dashes out the door and on her way out she grabs her gym bag, which is packed and ready to go right by the door and she heads up the door for work. Her day is, you know, maybe not a super high stress job. She has some responsibility, but it's not super high stress. Her lunch breaks are always scheduled. She goes to the gym on her lunch breaks. It's a automatic habit and then she returned home around 5:30, six o'clock. Meanwhile, stay at home dad. This is my dream life. That's why I use this as an example. He wakes up tired because he's been up with maybe a toddler a couple of times in the night. He wakes up to lots of noise too, maybe a baby and a toddler crying "Breakfast!" And immediately he's going, "What am I going to feed these kids for breakfast?" And gulping back coffee and then trying to get those kids dressed because they have an appointment at 10 o'clock and then trying to get himself dressed. And it's just the crazy, right? I think we've all been there. Annie: That sounds familiar. Jen: Yes. And then just getting those kids out the door getting, and then one of them saying they got to poop. So then coming back in to change a diaper, like just like madness constantly. Right. And despite his best intentions to do a workout during nap time that afternoon, he is just so mentally fatigued from everything that happened between 8:00 AM and 1:00 PM that by the time the afternoon hits scrolling Facebook and the couch have won him over. And then of course the afternoon to get up from their naps. Similar stuff, making dinner, just that whole crazy and working wife gets home at 5:30 and dinner is almost ready and they sit down for a nice family dinner. They get the kids to bed that night. They go to unwind on the couch. They might share a bag of chips and working Susie goes to bed at a reasonable hour. But stay at home husband is just mentally fatigued, is so sick of being around kids. This is the only time he has in a day to not be with kids and he ends up staying up til midnight like he does every single night. Just hoarding those hours for himself and that might lead to more chips, maybe a beer, watching TV. Then he goes to bed around midnight and it starts again the next day. And so this example I think is typical of what might be happening in a lot of people's households is, you, I don't want to say typical. I'll say it was typical for me for a long time. I don't know if it was typical for you, Annie, but and I would say that even though my partner had taken on the responsibility of earning and that was an enormous responsibility, I felt like my life was chaos, very hard to find a routine when my kids were all little, little. I had three kids under four and it was just that I felt like my mental energy was just, just chipped away at all day long. Just all those little decisions you have to make dealing with unreasonable little kids all day. And it was very hard for me to get the physical or mental energy together. And then it's a downward cycle, right? Like then you have staying up late then broken sleep, can't get up in the morning, can't get going. And you know, we know that spiral, right? Making not so great food choices. Annie: Yeah. it's hard to make great choices when you're exhausted, when you're mentally and maybe even physically fatigued, you're kind of not in a prime position to make a good choice. And the mental fatigue that comes with a long day of decision making, whether it be you, Jen, when you were staying at home or the husband that we described in the last situation, the long day of decision making chips away at your energy and your willpower. So you have the contrast of the working mom who didn't have to make a lot of choices or maybe she made those choices ahead of time. So when she was fatigued- Jen: Right? So she packed her lunch, you know, she packs her lunch the night before, packs her gym bag. Doesn't have to think about those things. And maybe, you know, I think about my husband when he would go to work, there were lots of decisions that needed to be made and he did work in a high pressure environment, but he had assistants, receptionists, you know, like there was a lot of people pushing the ball forward with him, and yeah, so, and I don't want to like create this comparison game. I just might help with conversations between partners or just reflection, right? And so yeah, like, “Wow, how can I reduce the amount of decisions I have to make in a day?” Because what we know is all those decisions is actually contributing big time to your mental fatigue. Annie: Right? And so that's why we talk a lot about things like habits. So when you walk to the fridge, you have your, maybe your lunch for the week, you know, you've got all your power bowls. That's why our power bowl challenge was so successful and we loved it so much is because you don't have to then think at 12 o'clock when you're already starving and like, "Oh gosh, what am I gonna eat for lunch now? And do I want to cook something? Do I want to go grab something?" Because convenience wins. We know that over and over and over again, that whatever is most readily available will likely win out, which we'll talk about how your environment impacts your habits in just a little bit. But essentially what this boils down to in real life that this means, although it may appear that some people have higher levels of willpower than you do, it's probably they've just have just less mental energy expended during the day on large or small decisions. Jen: Right. So that may mean they have less decisions to make, or it may mean that they have habits in place so that they are not making those decisions, right? So you know, if you've listened to our podcast for a long time, you'll know exactly what that means. But if you're new to our podcast, it's sort of how when I open up my phone each time, I don't have to think about what my passcode is to get in, right? But when you go to change your password, you put in your old code, you're like, and then you have put it in again, and then you put it in again. And then all of a sudden you're like, "Oh yeah, I changed my passcode." So that's just an example of where energy is expended in one little way, right? Until that new habit is formed and then it takes no energy for you to do that. Or I was on another podcast, a couple months ago and a farm podcast actually. And, I said to the host, I was trying to explain habits and I said, "What happens when somebody moves the silverware drawer?" And the host, the a male host, Rob, his name was, he goes, "10 years later, you're still reaching to get it out of the old drawer." And that's the thing, right? So habits, having habits set up, like packing your gym bag before bed, if that becomes a part of your night routine and then you don't have to think about it in the morning, "Oh, where's my pants? Where's my shoes? Where's?" Do you know what I mean? And so it's looking at it, you know, case by case. You think, well, these aren't big decisions. Like who cares? But it's actually adding up all those things through the course of a day where you're just like, "Ugh, brain done." Annie: Yeah. Like, you know, the term that comes to mind is just this like exasperated. Like "I can't, I just can't. I can't, I can't." I think I've said that to my husband before like, "I can't make a choice right now. I just need you to do this for me. Like I don't even care." And then he picked somewhere to eat and I'm like "But not that place." Self control is similar. In that when scientists analyze people who appear to have great self control, similarly, it's largely because they're better at structuring their lives in a way that does not require heroic willpower and self control. And in short, they spend time, less time in tempting situations. And that was pulled from also one of our mentors, James Clear, his new book, Atomic Habits, which if you haven't checked out that book or his blog posts they're great. He's hopefully similar to us really applies information to your lives really easily. Jen: Yeah. But ps, he may not know he's a mentor of ours. We may just be like silent mentees Annie: It's not like we're buddies. Jen: Annie, you took his course a couple of years ago. Annie: Yeah, I did. Jen: Yeah. Anyways- Annie: Maybe admirers. Jen: Admirers of his work. Stalkers? Annie: Creepers. Jen: We're not quite at that level. But and we also talked about this in our podcast with doctor Tracey Mann. She's actually done a lot of research on willpower and she talked about it in that podcast and what she had said is nobody has good willpower. You think, you know, nobody does, in different survey she's done when she asks people to rate their own willpower. Everybody scores themselves low on willpower. So nobody thinks they have good willpower. And this is just an excerpt from her book Secrets From The Eating Lab, which is another book we recommend all the time. "Humans were simply not meant to willfully resist food. We evolved through famines, hunting and gathering, eating whatever we could get when we could get it. We evolve to keep fat on our bones by eating food we see, not by resisting it? So is that a good segway into- Annie: Well, I think the takeaway is there, like you can take some of the pressure off yourself for not having like iron man or whatever, like discipline and willpower like, the truth is no one is like that. That's what we're trying to say is that people that you think have really good willpower have most likely, again, created their lives, created routine, created habits that make other options less tempting. They've made the choices that they want to make the most readily available, the easiest to choose, and the most obvious choice in their lives. Jen: Right? So instead of putting all this energy into kind of shaming yourself and getting down on yourself for not having perfect willpower and motivation, put your energy into what we know matters, which is curating your environment and setting yourself up for success, which I do almost every night with my nighttime routine, I kind of start getting things ready for the next day. Annie: Yeah. And motivation is also something that kind of goes, seems to go hand in hand with willpower. And we've kind of been using these terms thus far interchangeably, but motivation is actually our willingness to do things. And the thing about motivation is at times it can feel abundant. Like you have all the motivation and like, "Yes, we're going to do all the things." And then at other times it's like "I'm just so unmotivated, I can't, I can't do anything at all." Jen: Right. Annie: You've felt like that- Jen: Totally. Annie: You've felt that burst of motivation and I think the myth is, again, it goes back to that people that are achieving their goals or they're going to the gym five, six days a week and they're meal planning and their meal prepping and they're eating the foods that the meal plan and plan and they seem so disciplined also have unlimited sources of motivation. And that is not the case either. No one, no one is riding this motivation high all the time, every day. Jen: Even people who, say, prep meals in advance, I prep some or portion of food I'm usually on the weekends and that sets us up for success during the week, but by no means am I cooking and preparing all of my food. You sometimes see on Instagram, you know, like, people who, like, have all these dishes and they line them up and they post meal prep Sunday Hashtag motivation. Annie: It makes for a great photo. Jen: Yes. And they have all their breakfast, all their lunches, all their snacks, all their suppers lined up for the week. Which, honestly, all the power to you. Some weeks I probably could use that. I just don't have time on the weekends to do in depth preps like that. But I do perhaps some and I do meal plan so I know what's coming. That's when meal planning can be great because it takes away the mental energy of deciding what you're going to eat. But what I will say is even the stuff I do prep, I'm not, I don't always feel motivated to eat it. I'm not like, "Oh, can't wait!" I'm like- Annie: Yes! Amen! Jen: And I think even the people who prep all those meals in advance, they might seem really motivated on Sunday cause they've got all these prep meals, but I bet you by Thursday they're eating the same lunch that they had all week and they're just like not thrilled. Or drowning in BBQ sauce. Annie: I can't tell you how many times I have and this is something I would have done back in my deep dieting years is, you know, this on again off again thing, I would like clean out the kitchen. I'd have this like motivation usually triggered, I mean, let's just revisit the diet cycle here. Triggered by shame. I'd see a photo of myself and like, "Ugh, got to lose 10 pounds!" Clean up the kitchen. I'd run to the grocery store, buy all this produce and lean meats and veggies and fruits and like I'm going to do this so well this week. And then, like, come Thursday I'm like, "Ugh!" Because you get this burst of motivation and then to, like, continue to the follow through is, like, that's much harder and when you rely on motivation to do the things that's bound to happen. That's exactly what we would expect from a human because again, no one is riding this high of motivation, seven days a week, 24, seven hours, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's unreliable and it's fleeting. It comes and it goes, it ebbs and flows. It rises throughout the month, throughout the day. And, like, I notice it, my motivation rises and falls throughout the day and even in particular to do certain things. If I wanted to have motivation to go work out I know that it needs to be mid to late morning. If I wait until 6:00 PM to work out, it's probably not going to happen. Maybe some days, but probably not. Vice versa, if I try to work late at night, I can't work late at night. It needs to be like three, four o'clock seems to be like a really productive hour for me. So if I have something important to do, like, you know, kind of stack your day to where the motivation fits that task. Jen: Which can work. For me, the only realistic time I have to work out is super early in the morning. So I get up at 5:30 and I work out from six till seven three days a week. And I am never, ever, ever hopping out of bed excited, like "I can't freaking wait." It's just become a habit and which can lead us into a discussion about values and goals. But ultimately for me,I made a commitment to do this to my future self. So when I get up in the morning, I just don't let myself question it. Obviously if I've had a rough sleep or a sick kid, I will not get up at that hour. You know, I have grace with myself and I'm realistic. But yeah, I'm never motivated to do it. It's just simply become a habit for me. And something that's very important to me. Annie: I think that's a common mistake people make is they're sitting around waiting for motivation to strike them like lightning from the sky and as a result they're at the mercy of motivation. So they can't take action until they're motivated. That's like this belief that they have in their head. But you can also flip it and action leads to motivation, which research has proven as well. And I think just anecdotally, you would probably say the same thing. I would say the same thing. Like you get that first set in, you get your workout clothes on, you get into the gym and you start the workout and it's like, "Okay, I can do this now." And then you'll do it, and then it snowballs and it's like, and then you retrain your habit loop in your brain, like, I get up, I do the thing. The reward is I feel good. I may be more productive during the day, in the long term I'm improving my health, I'm increasing my strength, I'm learning new skills and then that's how habits are formed. Jen: Yeah, absolutely. Annie: Without relying on motivation. Jen: Right. Yeah. Annie: Boom. Jen: And that's why a lot of people give up on workout routines, right? Like how many people start something new and within three weeks they're done because they just, they lose, they're super motivated at the beginning, everybody is, when I started this new lifting program, well, its Arms Like Annie, it's your program, Annie,, I was very motivated but that really it doesn't last. And then you, then it's boring because then you're just putting in reps. But that's actually where the magic starts happening, I think, is actually those boring stages when you don't want to, that's when you're starting to, you're not relying on motivation anymore and you are truly training in that habit cycle and you might feel yourself resisting and trying to go back to old habits. Right? When my old habit is to sleep till seven, not get up at 5:30. But that's truly when the magic starts happening. That's truly around even where the tipping point starts happening, right, into forming a habit. And so that's why it's important to push through but not push through in the way that push through and find more motivation. It's like just push through like you're there, like this is, this is where it's going to happen. Annie: So that's, inside Balance365, that's something we call the Habit Hangover often. Like, we see that it's pretty common. Like, because people- Jen: This isn't fun anymore. Annie: Yeah. When they're motivated and they're like, "Okay, now this is just hard work and I'm not near as excited as I was when I started three weeks ago. And the newness, the shininess has worn off. Jen: Yes, new and shiny is gone. Yes. Annie: And again, that's another vote that we've said it before on the podcast. We say it all the time in our community. That's why we start habits small because when that motivation falters and it will then you're not relying, you don't need like this Richard Simmons level of willpower and motivation to do the thing that you're supposed to be doing if you start a little bit smaller versus like doing all the things at once. Jen: Yeah. So actually because I had struggled with, we moved a couple of years ago, a year and a half ago, I guess, and since we moved, I really struggled with my workout habit. So it was kind of last fall sometime where I just epiphany, "Look, this isn't working. I'm not being consistent because I haven't been able to find a time in my day that this really works for me. It definitely does not work at night for me." And that's something I just kept trying to do, trying to do, trying to do and then finally I was like, "Look, you're not going to work out at night." And so that's when I started getting up in the mornings and I actually kind of had the epiphany that's really what time works best for me and I had to start going to bed earlier and I started with twice a week actually. I was doing Mondays and Wednesdays only and that felt very realistic for me. And when things did get hard, I would say, "You know what? It's just two mornings a week. Like you, you can do this. It is just two mornings a week." And then when I felt ready, which is about two months after I started, I added in Friday mornings and now that's going really good. And we're going to add in a cardio, just a cardio session. And yeah. So, and that's just, that's really how habits form, right? Like that's so boring. But you scale up as you solidify new skills and habits, then you can add in something else and something else. And then all of a sudden you're living it and you're going, "Oh, this is happening and I'm doing the thing." Annie: I'm doing the thing. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Or the things. So to recap thus far, willpower and motivation is not what keeps most "successful people" going. It's their habits. And the next kind of layer I want to add on to that, which we've already touched on, is that your habits are highly influenced by your environment. And I want to share this study, I think we've shared it before, but really quickly, this is again, something inspired from James Clear shared before, but they did this study of soda and water consumption in hospital. And what they did was they let people choose their soda and their water consumption for two weeks, three weeks, whatever. They collected the data on the sales of each. After three weeks they added, they didn't change anything about the soda. They added water to different locations, more convenient locations throughout the hospital cafeteria. So again, all they changed was made water more available. And as a result, water sales increased and soda sales decreased. And I think that's just such a simple example of how impactful your environment can be on your habits. They didn't say, they didn't promote or push the water or give any marketing about how soda was "bad or harmful" and water was better. They simply just offered it in more places. And people are like, "Oh, there's water. I'll take a water now." Jen: Totally. So in my house, Oh boy, we talk about this all the time. My veggie tray. Annie: Yes. Yes. Jen: So fruits and vegetables are often things that people struggle to get enough in. And you have to make them convenient and part of your environment. One way I do this is one, I buy bagged salads and I just kind of have no shame around that when my salads are pretty much prepped for me, I'm eating them and enjoy them, but I am just not going to start from scratch every single meal to create a salad. That's a lot of work. And or maybe, maybe it's not a lot, but it's too much for me. And a second is I make a veggie tray every, that's kind of part of my meal prep. On Sundays I make a Veggie tray. I've got like an old one of those old Tupperware ones. I make a Veggie tray and then I'm usually restocking it by Wednesday morning. And I bring that out for most meals, lunch and supper for me, my kids. And I also pull from it when I'm packing lunches for my kids school lunches. And I keep all our fruit, most of our fruit, if it doesn't have to be refrigerated, I have it on the counter in just a little fruit basket and we go through fruit like crazy around here. But I have made fruits and vegetables very, I have put my energy into making those two things very accessible and then I don't have to think about it during the week. It just happens naturally. And that's what we're trying to say here, right? Annie: Yeah. And I think the other aspect to that is visual cues are really, really important. So because when you open up your fridge, you see the Veggie tray and it's, like, there. Jen: It's there. It's right at eye level. It's not tucked, you know, it's not tucked away. It's not in the back. I don't have my vegetables tucked in the drawers and the bottom. It's like right there. Annie: Exactly. I even remember you talking about, which you've seen my Instagram videos, you know, my kitchen also houses my dumbbells and kettlebells. But, but you did the same thing too, you were like, look, I'm not getting in a lot of movement and I want to, and it would be simple to incorporate some kettlebell swings, but in order for me to actually do that, I need the kettle bell in my kitchen. So every time you walked by it, so you ended up doing, you know what, 10 swings a handful of times throughout the day. Jen: Yeah. So yeah, so I have a big round Moved Nat yoga mat off my kitchen island. There's kind of just a space off my kitchen that's just blank space. I know not everybody will be able to find a space, but there's other ways to do it. But anyway, sorry, I have this huge round Yoga Mat. The boys use it to sit and play cars on or they sit on it and read. But I also use it, like, it's just there. So if I feel like doing some movement, whether it's getting on the ground and doing some glute bridges or pushups or whatever, my mat is right there and I don't have to go on my gross floors. But, and then I also have just, you know, I have my garage gym,, but I have one kettlebell that I keep up in the kitchen and it's kind of on the lighter end, but I can do, you know, I can do lots of things with it in my kitchen and I, yeah, I see it and I'll do it right. Which I know it sounds silly, but if I'm waiting for water to boil on the stove, I'll go over and do a couple of kettlebell swings or a couple of pushups or, yeah. And I mean that just works well for me. I'm not saying it'll work for everybody, but it just works well for me. And other people might find benefit in having a yoga mat in their living room and some weights, you know, beside the TV. And so when they're watching TV, they might just feel like, yeah, I could get down on the floor, do some bridges, some presses, some, you know, some yoga stretches, anything, right? Because if it's, but it's just about looking at your environment and say, how does my environment support more of what I want in it? And then on the flip side of that, which we talked about with Traci Mann, is how can I put small barriers in place between me and things that I want less of in my life. So for me, I keep, like all our nuts and seeds and chocolates, like really high calorie, high energy foods. I keep a lot of those above my fridge in the cupboard and then I don't, I can't see them. There's no visual cue to eat them. I'm having them when I want them, right. When I think of them and want them and reach for them. Annie: Right. And then you know that if I want them it's because I actually want them, not just because I see them and then I want them, which is like marketing 101. We think that we're in control. We think we're like making the choice. But a lot of times it's like the power of suggestion. Like I've said it before, my kids don't want the Goldfish at Target until they see the Goldfish at Target, at the end cap. Jen: It's why grocery stores put all that stuff right at the checkout. Right? All the trashy magazines, all the indulgent foods, like the chocolate bars, they put it there because they know you're going to be standing there awhile, waiting at the checkout and you're just more likely to grab it the longer you're standing there. Annie: Right. And the other thing about habits too is that, habits and your environment is that we often have a set of habits per the location we're in. So if you think about the habits you have in your bedroom, the habits you have in your kitchen, the habits you have in your, in the gym, the habits you have in a grocery store, you probably grocery shop the same path every time. You have your routine, right? You like grab your produce, you move to meats or whatever it is. Same thing with the gym. You walk to the same space every time, you put your bag down, you go use the same equipment, you probably have a favorite treadmill or a favorite squat rack or whatever. The thing is important to know is that it can be easier to change habits in a new environment. So if possible, like I'm not saying go out and buy a new house, but could you rearrange your furniture so maybe, or take a TV out of your bedroom or rearrange your furniture so it's not facing the TV and it's more conducive to reading or whatever habit you're trying to change. Or put a kettle bell in your kitchen or go to a different grocery store. Like would your shopping- Jen: Rearrange up cupboards or, yeah. Annie: Yeah. You don't have to like completely like burn everything down and start from new. But can you think outside the box of how your environment shapes your habits? Like even, James Clear, and I'm guilty of this, was talking about your environment should have a purpose. So, you know, he was working at his kitchen island. But he also wants to eat in his kitchen. And then it's kind of like, there was no boundary. That's like, now I'm working, now I'm eating, I'm eating and I'm working. So he created a new small environment out of his bedroom for an office or whatever. And like that's his work. When he's working, when he's there, he's working. When he's in his kitchen, he's eating and you know, on and so forth. So- Jen: I just- Annie: Go ahead. Jen: I posted about this in Balance365 a couple of months ago. I totally had that epiphany in the wintertime when it was chilly out, I started working at my kitchen table near the fire instead of my office. And I started snacking more and more and more. And then one day I realized, it's because you're just staring at the kitchen all day. You're just staring at the cupboard, staring at the kitchen and you're just triggered to go grab something to eat. Right. And so I moved back down to my office and that problem is gone. I'm not snacking between breakfast and lunch anymore. Annie: Right. Jen: And it's crazy, right? You think, you know, you think this comes to motivation and willpower again, but you just can't believe how much your environment influences your choices. Right. And again, my goal is not perfection. My goal is balance. So I'm not like saying take all the treats out of your cupboards and all of that. I feel like I have an appropriate amount of treats in my house stored in a space that aligns with the goal I have of balance, right. Annie: Right, right. Yeah. And I think that it's, you know what all of this really boils down to for me and I'm assuming for you is that self control and willpower and motivation can work in the short term. They can be a great short term strategy. And I wouldn't want anyone listening to this to think I'm super motivated, but I somehow have to like contain that motivation or pull back from that motivation because I don't want to like misstep or whatever. Like, no, if you're motivated to do something, you can follow that. Like you can explore it. It's not that it's a bad thing, but the point is, is that a better, in our experience, a better long term strategy for reaching goals boils down to habits and environment. Jen: Right. I don't, sometimes I feel super motivated to go for an extra run or walk or I do an extra workout. But another thing I just want to note is you don't want to, when you're feeling motivated, that's not where you want to set your bar, right? Like you don't, you know, some weeks I have my baseline habits, say, like my three workouts a week and that's just kinda my minimum at this point. I miss the odd one. We just took two weeks off, actually, me and my workout partner and that's all good. We're right back to our three times a week. But the odd time when I feel like an extra run or I feel like an extra workout, I don't bring my bar up there. I don't say, okay, now I'm at five times. I just, you know what, I recognize it as a week, even a month sometimes where I had a burst of energy and I utilize that and that felt great, but I don't bring my bar up there. I just recognize. Annie: Yes. It was just a bonus. Jen: I just feel motivated. Yeah. It was just a bonus. Annie: Yeah. That's great. This is good. I hope that this helps clear up a lot of the questions that we get about willpower and also helps reduce some of the shame and guilt that people might be experiencing if they don't feel those emotions or if they don't feel like they have those traits or those characteristics innately, and then, because I think I, you know, just on a personal note, I think people think that I am motivated, for example, to go to the gym three, four times a week or five times a week. I'm not. Like Jen said, like, there's days where I'm like, "Eh, I don't know." Like I'll text my girlfriend, it's like, "I need you to talk me into this." Jen: Right. Annie: Or "This is workout really doesn't look fun. I don't think I can do this," but it falls back to habits. I dropped my kids off at school, I'd go to the gym and if I can just get my kids in the car, I know that that trigger loop or that habit loop has started with my trigger of getting kids to school. And I know the rest will just fall in naturally thanks to habits. Jen: Yes. And I do think it is really key too, I don't think a lot of people do this and I think it's such a great thing to do is to stop, pause, especially if you've gone through any life transition, like had a baby, changed jobs, moved and think about where you can decrease the decisions you're making in the day. So my nighttime routine consists of, you know, washing my face, brushing my teeth, getting my workout clothes out, putting them right beside the bathroom sink so that when I get up in the morning, the first thing I do is get dressed. I get my coffee pot out, the coffee out. So you know, so just in the mornings, I just, I don't have to think. I just get up and do, and then I head down to the gym. Annie: That's great. Awesome. If you want to continue the conversation on willpower and motivation, come to our free private Facebook group with our Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. Jen, Lauren and I are in there frequently along with some really, really rad community members that have been around for a while and have great contributions, so we hope to see in there. Jen: Yes. Annie: Alright, thanks, Jen. Jen: Bye, Annie. Annie: Bye. Bye. This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.  

  Parenting can be exhausting, especially if your kids aren’t sleeping well. How do you help your kids get the sleep they need? How do you get the sleep you need? Jen, Annie and Lauren discuss these important questions with Dr. Craig Canapari to get listeners and their kids on their way to better sleep. What you’ll hear in this episode: Misconceptions about sleep training The role of mom shame in the decision to sleep train or not Harnessing habits for better sleep in your kids Sleep as a buffer for toxic stress Sleep debt - what is it? All or something - the value of incremental gains in your sleep habit At what age should you sleep train? Social jetlag: what is it and what does it have to do with sleep? How to shift your sleep schedule Dividing sleep responsibilities Sleep routine in blended families or single parent households Screens in the bedroom - why you should unplug How limiting screen time can improve your sleep How to help your kid stay asleep or in bed longer How sleep impacts weight Resources: Atomic Habits by James Clear It's Never Too Late to Sleep Train: The Low Stress Way To High Quality Seep for Babies, Kids and Parents - Link when available Dr. Craig Canapari’s Blog Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balanced 365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional well-being with amazing guests. Enjoy. Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life radio. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to share with you a really sweet review left for us on iTunes. SPagan84 says, "I beg of you. This is what female need to hear. Annie, Jen and Lauren cover a lot of freaking rad topics. Women empowering one another, women evolving to be the best version of themselves and women learning to love themselves. This podcast is so much more than fitness and nutrition though they have a no bs approach to diet and fitness that applies to real life. I love, love, love the Balance365 life." Thank you so much to all of you who have taken the time to leave us a review on iTunes, we read every single one of them and they all mean so much to us. Alright, let me tell you about today's guest. Annie: Dr. Canapari is the director of the Yale Pediatric Sleep Center, father and author of his first book, It's Never Too Late to Sleep train. Shortly after becoming a father, Dr. Canapari realized that all of his years of 36 hour hospital shifts didn't come close to preparing him for the sleep deprivation that comes with parenthood. Inside his book, Dr. Canapari helps parents harness the power of habit to chart a clear path to high quality sleep for them and their children. Sound familiar? On today's episode, Lauren, Jen, Dr. Canapari and myself discussed the importance of quality sleep for not just your children, but why it's so important for parents and caregivers as well. Plus he shares a ton of great insight on to how to improve sleep for your whole family regardless of age. Enjoy! Annie: Welcome to the show. We have a special guest today. Jen, do you want to tell us how you met our special guest? Jen: Sure. So this is Dr. Craig Canapari. Hello. I found his blog, it would be over four years ago now because I had, my third son was a nightmare between the hours of 7:00 PM and 7:00 AM and I had never experienced this before. My first two were natural sleepers and I was going out of my mind by the time he was one. And so one night it was late and I was googling anything and I came across his blog and I got some answers to my questions and I've followed him ever since. Annie: Doctor, welcome to the show. Dr. Canapari: Thank you for having me. And that's very kind. I wish I could actually see what time of night people are reading my site relative to time zone because I suspect it's probably mostly in the middle of the night. Jen: It was probably 1130 for me and I was like crying and I just, yeah, so now I refer people to your site all the time as, like, an evidence based resource for um, parents whose children have sleep issues, which it's hard, you know, there's just so much. One thing that I will tell you that I appreciate and that I think a lot of our listeners might be able to listen to is that there's a lot of, I don't know if you want to call it pseudoscience or opinion based sleep recommendations online. And when I had my third, um, we lived in New Zealand and I, you know, they just, what I'll say is I was very wrapped up in the natural birthing community by the time I had my third and sleep training is just like "N-O" in that community. Like, your kid's going to get brain damage, they'll have neurological issues, attachment issues for life. Jen: And so I really thought if I tried to intervene in my child sleep that I was going to give my child brain damage. And what happened is I pretty much got brain damage from that year of trying to deal with him. And I mean I literally felt crazy where I, when he was one, I pretty much had a nervous breakdown and was in therapy and I was a mess. And it was, like, my marriage was falling apart, everything. And it was all because of, I wouldn't say all, you know, nothing happens in a vacuum, but in hindsight now we're four or five years later, I'm like, that year of sleep was like, it made me crazy, like crazy and this stuff is serious and people don't take sleep seriously enough. But like there are some women and men out there that are really, really suffering and they don't know where to turn. Dr. Canapari: Well, I think there's a, there's a lot of good points in what you're saying and the first thing is that I think that like sleep and bedtime are really personal things for people and, it's a totally separate issue, but you know, in our town, and you know, I've been involved locally, regionally, nationally with sleep issues for teenagers and trying to get more humane start times for teenagers. And there's something personal about bedtime and what happens in your house at night. So people aren't always open to advice. And I think there's also the thread of, it generates a lot of strong feelings for people and people have very strong opinions that aren't always grounded in facts. And I always laugh about the the idea that crying can damage your child's brain. I mean, my kids used to cry all the time over like the dumbest stuff. Dr. Canapari: Like in the book I talk about my kid was four and found an ant on his donut and he was crying. And I'm like, I don't think it damaged his brain, you know? But I think we're also a little bit more vulnerable when we're sleep deprived that things that are, you know, if you stop for a moment, you're like, you know, I think it's reasonable for me to expect that I get a decent night of sleep my child does. But you're more vulnerable to kind of this judgment that can kind of come in and, and you guys know all this as moms too, I think that the whole sort of mommy shaming thing is real. Jen: Yes. Yes. Dr. Canapari: You know, my boys were both born via c sections and the first one was cause he, you know, he couldn't be born any other way. And I remember my wife talking about, you know, some people would say things that almost made her feel like she hadn't, you know, delivered my son. Jen: Right. Like, are you mom enough? Dr. Canapari: Yeah, totally. Totally, totally. So I think that it's not that everyone has to sleep train their child. It's not that you have to use cry it out sleep training and it's also that sleep training has such a negative valence in our society. People are like, "Oh, it's just cry it out. And it's just this thing that a lot of people view very negatively." There are lots of things you can do that don't necessarily mean that your child is going to cry more. Jen: They are not talking about it publicly, but we're all googling it. It's one of those, like, it's become one of those secret underground things that we all want to do but we are afraid to admit it. I experienced this big time. I formula fed my first baby and um, that was horrific. I had a woman come up to me in the grocery store and ask me why he was drinking from a bottle. And it's just, yeah, like you, I've had three children and my youngest is now five and in hindsight I wish I could take all that pain away for new moms. Like I wish I could say, "Hey, it doesn't matter. Like, it really doesn't matter. Once they get up and going, you know, it's just, I can't tell the difference between my three kids who I sleep trained, who I didn't, who had formula, who had breast milk, who was born by epidural, who was born naturally. They're just, just choices that we make." Dr. Canapari: And especially with the first child, it's so fraught. I remember one of the biggest fights that my wife and I ever had was about what stroller we were going to get. Right. You know, and, and, and you know, I wanted of course this really stupid technological thing that she didn't want. And with the second kid, you're like, "I want the cheapest stroller that I can fit in my car really easily." It's just, you get a little bit more perspective, but I think you're totally right. Like as a parent, you kind of need to give yourself permission to be like, you know what, I'm going to do something a little bit different from some of my peers and it's okay. Jen: Yeah. In the end, you, you need to be okay. And I guess that was my greatest lesson from having postpartum depression, postpartum anxiety, and like, basically a nervous breakdown as I just talked about. I was not okay. In my pursuit of trying to find what was "the best" way to raise a child, I personally was not okay. And now I just believe so wholeheartedly that children need their parents to be okay and we'll and to be okay we'll all kind of make different choices in that pursuit. Dr. Canapari: I think that things have kind of pendulumed away from self care for parents, especially moms. And, you know, when the term attachment parenting was coined, it was in the 60s, and back then people were like, "Oh, if your child's crying, you should ignore them because otherwise you're going to spoil them." And clearly that's not true, right? It's natural to comfort your child. And, you know, there was a, uh, a lot of pioneering work done by a woman named Mary Ainsworth that sort of showed that, well, that's not correct and it's okay to comfort your child and be emotionally available for your child. But when we think of attachment parenting now, we often think of, you know, Sears and everything that's kind of come out of Sears' work. And I agree with a lot of what Sears said is that like, you know, you should be close to your child and it's valuable to make time if you would like to breastfeed to make that a priority. But, you know, there's little room there for the needs of parents, especially moms in that conversation these days. And you know, I tell parents all the time, like, you know, it's okay to fix this for the reason that you're falling apart. Like, you're a better parent if you're not super sleep deprived and your child will benefit. You know, it's totally, you know, and that's kind of my job. They know it's the case, but they almost need someone to give them permission to make some changes. Jen: And there's not, and you know there's like zero to 60 and then there's like level one, level two. Do you know what I mean? Like not, and I think it's scary to go from zero to 60 but you don't have to necessarily go to 60. There's interventions that can start here where you're comfortable and then you can assess from there. Dr. Canapari: Totally. It's not a binary thing that like you're doing everything or nothing or they're perfect or it's terrible. It's usually somewhere in between. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And we all know as parents, you figure some things out, you get your kids sleep the way they're going, and then all of a sudden another kids waking up at night or they get a cold or it's never going to be perfect. Jen: Right. I feel like managing my kids sleep is like this ongoing thing that, you know, there's always something. So anyways, yeah, as long as we're all sleeping good enough, I'm okay. Dr. Canapari: That's my goal. Have you heard the whole a good enough mother? Donald Winnicott was this psychiatrist and pediatrician in England in the 60s and he coined the term "being the good enough mother." And it's just the idea is like if you love your child and you do your best to take care of them, they're going to turn out fine. You just need to be good enough. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And I, and I just love that idea. It's like, "Hey, look, it's not going to be perfect." And like so much of parenting now is, like, full contact and be like, I've got to get my two year old studying Mandarin or you know, they're not going to law school or something like that. And really it's just, you know, do your best. It's okay. Jen: Right. Annie: Doctor, before we get into some of the questions we have for you, can you tell our listeners a little bit about your book? I feel very special. Your team sent me, an unofficial an uncorrected proof that's not yet for sale. So I feel like VIP having this book here- Dr. Canapari: It's full of typos. Annie: You know what, that's great because I'm the world's worst proofreader. Lauren and Jen- Jen: It makes us feel good enough. Dr. Canapari: I just went through, I think the final proof and I still found a bunch of stuff and I'm like, "Oh," I'm like, I can barely read it anymore. I've read it like a thousand times. Oh, I'm sorry. Go. Annie: I thought it was great. It's called, It's Never Too Late to Sleep Train: The Low Stress Way To High Quality Seep for Babies, Kids and Parents. And what I loved about it is that you have this little dedication right in the front of the book there to your wife and kids and it says "You're the reason I get out of bed in the morning, in the case of Teddy, often, literally." It's like you've lived this, like, it's not like you're just some doctor- Dr. Canapari: I've been in the trenches. Annie: Yeah. Which I appreciate. So can you tell us a little bit about the book? Like, when will it be for sale? Where can they find it? What's in it? Just give a little overview. Dr. Canapari: So the book is coming out in May 9th and you know, just to backtrack a little bit, I started writing stuff for parents online, in 2012, back when I was over at Mass General in Boston with the idea of that, my background was in pulmonology. I trained in sleep medicine as well, but I used to do sleep apnea research and the behavior stuff was kinda new to me and I was like, you know, I'm going to start writing these articles for parents and it's going to be my way to master this material as well and to have resources if someone's in the office and I don't have time to go through everything and be like your go to my website, this is exactly what I think is important. And, you know, as going through this over time and kind of learning how to do this as a parent and as a doctor, I realized there's a lot of great sleep books out there, but I generally felt like a lot of them are pretty long. Dr. Canapari: You know, I think Ferber's book, which is great, it's about 600 pages long and it covers things like narcolepsy in teenagers. And you know, if your one year old can't sleep, you probably don't care that much about that. And I also think that there's been a lot of new research since Weiss, Bluth and Ferber wrote their books that kind of, perhaps demystified this a little bit. And specifically looking at the psychology of habits, which is, you know, habits are such a hot phrase nowadays, right? There was the Charles Duhigg book, James Clear just came up with Atomic Habits. But just the idea of there is an underlying psychology that underlines all these automatic behaviors we have all the time. Right? Those fights we have with our kids, every day, that's a habitual behavior, right? Dr. Canapari: So if you understand how that works, you can maybe tweak those behaviors to, for lack of a better word, to kind of use the power of these automatic behaviors to help rather than hinder you. So in the book we talk about if you want to change your own habit, and I bet you guys, in terms of what you do, talk a lot about habits with your client. Jen: It's all we talk about. Lauren: I have James Clear's book, like, literally right next to me. Annie: Same. Dr. Canapari: Yeah, no, I heard it's great. I haven't read it yet, but I've followed his stuff for a long time. Jen: Yeah, he's good. Annie: He's great. Dr. Canapari: The difference is if you want to change a habit, you're going to change the behavior. You know, if we talk about the habit loop, you have a cue that triggers a behavior and you have a downstream consequence. And it loops around and around. Your child is not going to raise their hand and say, "Hey, you know, mom, you're super tired and I'm just going to stop getting up at 4:30 in the morning." Right? That's the behavior you want to change. So you have to think about what are the upstream things you can change and how can you change your own behavior in the way that you respond to what your child's doing to help to shape their behavior to what you want. So anyway, this book is my summary of the things that I've learned in my journey as a sleep doctor and as a parent. And, my specific focus is in a population that I think people don't focus on as much. Like there's a lot written about infancy and I think infant sleep training is actually really simple. Dr. Canapari: It's not easy, but it's simple. And I cover that in the book. But also what do you do if your child's a little bit older? What do you do in a toddler or an early school age child where the, when we think about sleep training, we may think about cry it out. That's not going to work in a three or four year old. You know, it might work, but it would be horrible for parent and child. So what are other ways that you can change a child's behavior that really just aren't so unpleasant or scary for parents and kids? Jen: The reason I found your blog was because my youngest son, no, this wasn't why I found your blog. I found your blog because of sleep aids, my son had a sleep aid and it was me. And, the second time I revisited your blog in detail that was helpful to me was that my youngest son has night terrors. And your, one of your sons had night terrors. Dr. Canapari: Oh yeah. And now he sleepwalks too. We were just on a vacation with his cousins in the middle of the night, we found him just sitting on the toilet with his pants down, but not awake. And I'm like, his cousins found this pretty amusing as did we, yeah, he's 11. He found it less funny but- Jen: Right. So yeah, I mean you really have been in the trenches and there isn't a lot of information once you move past the infant years. And so yeah, that was the second time your blog was very helpful to me, was seeing you had, you're not just talking about this, you had experienced night terrors with one of your sons and just the science around it and what, how you guys ended up dealing with it, which is now how I deal with it. And yeah, I mean that stuff is scary and very stressful for parents. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. And I think that, in some of the things you guys have, with the topics today, just sort of talking about, sleep and sleep debt and I think of sleep as a, it's kind of a capstone skill for parents and families, right. If sleep is good, other things get easier. If sleep is bad, everything gets, everything gets worse. Jen: So would you call it a skill? Cause I noticed, you know, you're not calling it a habit, you're are calling it a skill. So would you say learning to sleep as a skill? Dr. Canapari: Well, I think yes. I think especially for, look, you said your two older children were good sleepers. Right? Jen: Fantastic. Dr. Canapari: And, it just kind of came naturally to them and we all have experienced this as parents. Like, you know, my older son is a great sleeper, but when he was little, he was a picky eater and every child is good at some things and bad at other things. So, like, I think some kids sleeping comes naturally to them. Like self soothing, sleeping through the night is very easy. Other children need to need to be taught. And the way we call, sleep training is the process, the term we use to describe teaching our children to sleep independently with our help, either falling asleep or staying asleep. And it's funny, some of the research, one of my colleagues is doing at Yale now, Monica Ordway is, we're looking at sleep as a buffer for toxic stress. Like, you know, stress is, we all know what stresses, right? A little bit of stress as good. You want to study for an exam, you need to be a little bit stressed to do it. But being chronically stressed is, it can really cause harm to health. Like when your son wasn't sleeping for a year- Jen: I ended up with a registered Dietitian who was amazing, but I had gone down the woo hole, which Lauren, my partner here pointed me out, with diet, but I mean I was breaking out so badly and I was like so inflamed and I thought it must be nutrition related. And there were a couple of people out there willing to tell me it was nutrition related. So it's cutting out all that stuff and it wasn't working. And I had, I did go see two GPs where one prescribed this cream that basically burned my face off. And the second one wanted to put me on the pill, which is fine, but I didn't think that I was like, "No, there's something, like this is not, this is very abnormal for me. I've never struggled with this." It's finally Lauren had said, you need to get to a registered dietitian. Jen: And she sat down with me, went through what's happening in my life and was like, you need to get some sleep. Like you are so inflamed because your body is so stressed. And that ended up being what it was. It ended up being that when I buckled down and we kind of dealt with these issues with my son and actually what happened was my husband took him away to his parents for five nights cause he just needed to be away from me I think. And within three weeks my, everything was calm. My face was calmed down, starting to heal. Like, I would just wake up and look puffy, like when I was so sleep deprived, I wake up and look puffy and almost feel hungover and that all just, once I fixed our sleep issues, that all went away. Dr. Canapari: I find that totally believable. And first of all, as a sidebar, how great to find a provider who looked at your whole set of issues and really like, there's no upside for a nutritionist to say "It's actually your sleep," right, financially. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: But I think I know, Annie, you work as a trainer, right? Annie: Yep. Dr. Canapari: So I bet if your clients aren't getting results, you're probably like, how much sleep are you getting at night, right? Like you can't, you're not gonna you're, you're going to struggle with your weight if you're sleep deprived. You are, I mean, I know you guys wanted to talk about sleep debt. Sleep debt certainly is a real phenomenon. It's hard to measure biologically. It's not like you can do a blood test and say, "Oh, you have, you know, your level of this neurotransmitter is high, that means you're in this amount of sleep debt." Dr. Canapari: But we know that it's a cumulative phenomenon and you can't really catch up on the weekends. Right. There was a study of teenagers, again, I know we're talking about moms and little kids here, but I think it's very interesting. This researcher named Dean Bebe had this fake summer school for kids that they were enrolled in as a research trial. And they'd have these classes that were kind of boring and they'd sleep deprive the kids for like six hours of sleep a night for two weeks. And they let them sleeping on the weekends. And what they found was every day their performance was getting worse. And if they did, in terms of how they were retaining material, in terms of their vigilance, et cetera, and if they got catch up sleep on the weekends, they got a little bit better, but they didn't get back to their baseline. Dr. Canapari: So the next week they started off worse than they had in the beginning. So it just is going to keep snowballing. And the classic example is of a parent. I mean I think that there was a research trial published a couple years ago that said single moms are the most sleep deprived people in the United States, hands down, which I find totally believable, right? Jen: Absolutely. Dr. Canapari: If you're working outside of the home, you're a single parent, you know, you are getting your kids to bed and then you have all the work of the household to do. It's just, it's nuts. And it's not like with airline pilots or bus drivers or something like that where we actually have rules saying, well, you have to sleep x amount to do your job. Nobody's, you know, nobody's looking over your shoulder as a parent and saying, "Hey, you know what, it's 10 o'clock, you know, I'll take it from here." Right. Annie: Wouldn't that be nice? Dr. Canapari: Yeah, it would be pretty cool. Annie: That's actually, quite in line. You and I have talked over the phone before this podcast that we address sleep in Balance365 as one of, kind of the habit foundations or habit accelerators because we know, as people in the health and wellness industry that when you're tired, everything just seems harder. Annie: So in terms of sleep debt, if you have a sleep deprived kid or adult, how can you get out of it? Like how- Jen: I don't think we defined sleep debt either before we started talking about, so sleep debt Is what accumulates right? Once you go without sleep, you accumulate, you owe sleep debt. Dr. Canapari: Yes. Essentially. Essentially if you are consistently sleeping less than the amount of sleep you need, and we know for adults it's anywhere between seven and nine hours of sleep at night. Your sleep requirements might be a little bit different than mine. If you think back to before you had kids and you imagined f you went to bed at a certain time and you could wake up spontaneously without an alarm, that's about how much sleep you need. If you do that consistently over a couple of weeks, of course, none of us with children ever experience that. But it's if you are constantly getting less sleep than you need or your sleep is interrupted frequently as it is if we have a child that's sleeping poorly at home, you're developing sleep debt, which is just the biological imbalance. Dr. Canapari: When you think about sleep it's sort of like breathing, eating healthy food, breathing clean air, drinking enough water. We know if we eat poorly, we feel worse. If we we're having too many calories, the wrong kinds of calories, but it's the same. It's the same deal with sleep and sleep is, it's very easy to shortchange sleep, right? You can't manufacture extra hours in the day. It's easy to stay up a little bit later and you know, either catch up on work, do your email, fold laundry or even just get caught in that cycle of say, binge watching or something like that. Because we're surrounded by these addictive technologies that want to, you know, have our eyeballs instead of having us go to sleep. Jen: And, and just to that point, I mean we do, we're human beings are amazingly resilient. So anyone can tolerate a couple nights of bad sleep or a couple of nights of not great eating habits. It's really what we're doing day in and day out, week to month to yearly, right? Dr. Canapari: Right you can catch up to a degree on weekends, but again, most parents don't have that luxury. I think that the real key is, look, some people have weeks, months, years of sleep debt, the key is just going forward. How are you going to change your life to allow you to start getting caught up on that? And I think even if it's just allowing yourself to get an amount of sleep so you feel rested in the morning. In my clinic, we look at an incremental gains, right? Like if someone's going to sleep at midnight every night, again, I deal with a lot of teenagers who are sleep deprived. I don't want immediately go and be like, well, you should go to bed at eight o'clock night. We sort of start seeing, well, what, what can we do to get you to sleep at 1130 or 11? Like getting those small incremental gains are going to make someone feel better and be more successful even if it's not perfect. And it's likewise if you're working on your child's sleep issues, again, like little kids usually aren't that sleep deprived, right? Because they're going to make it up during the day. They're going to make it up in the car. They may have naps at preschool. They may nap great a preschool even if they refuse to now for you, which is a really frustrating phenomenon, right. Lauren: That's happening to us right now. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. And they're going to catch up but as parents we don't have that luxury, right? We can't take a nap. We need to be attentive when we're driving in the car, giving presentations at work or anything like that. When you get into older children, think later elementary school, middle school, high school, that's when those kids are going to have more difficulty catching up. The biggest reason to fix the problems in young children is to me, it's the benefit for the parents. Jen: Right, right. Annie: That's actually something you also addressed in your book, which I so appreciate as you have a section about what sleep training will do for you. You know, it's like it allows, it's like the snowball effect. As I said, everything's just seems harder when you're tired and all of a sudden when you're getting more rest, maybe you have more energy to get in a workout or have some extra time to go do Xyz or you're more productive at work or you're more efficient in the home or what, you know, whatever. It just seems to carry over and spill over into so many areas outside of the bed. Jen: What happened with my youngest son, and if you think this is way off, Dr. Canapari, you can tell me to shut up. I had three kids in four years and then my last one was this terrible sleeper and then I ended up, you know with the doctor or with that dietitian telling me you need to get some sleep. Even though my acne started clearing up after three weeks of consistent sleep, I noticed that I didn't wake up feeling refreshed for about a year. Like it took like a year for me to feel like I was recovered from those years with the kids. Dr. Canapari: So I think there's probably a lot of factors there, right. You know, working off a sleep debt is not something that happens easily, right. If perhaps your husband had said, I'm actually going to take all three of the kids for a month. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: You could've gotten caught up. But also, and excuse me for presuming you mentioned you were also struggling, struggling with some postpartum depression and that probably also could be factored into this as well. Jen: And starting this business and you know, there is stress definitely in my life. And also let's go over that year, the kids would get sick and you know, it's not like I had a year of perfect sleep before I felt recovered, but I just remember at that one year mark going like suddenly realizing, "Oh my gosh, I'm waking up in the morning and I'm feeling, like, refreshed." Like, yeah. So it was just, I was just very tired for quite a while after even getting the sleep training and not that, you know, not that things didn't improve for me, right, just by getting better, right? We talk in Balance365, we have this saying called all or something and it's like, when will it ever be perfect? But you can always, you know, there's usually a better choice available to you. It doesn't have to be all or nothing and- Dr. Canapari: Totally right. Jen: So and we have a lot of women who talk about, you know, they're just so fried from work and parenting that the evenings feel like the only time they have for themselves, like get the kids in bed at, you know, say 7:30, 8 o'clock and then they stay up til midnight because it's the only time they have for themselves in their week. And they just, they're just like selfish with it. They just crave that alone time so badly. But, and I, we all deserve that. Like, I get it and we all deserve that. But just even saying, okay, well instead of four hours for yourself, can you take three, go to bed at 11 instead of midnight. That gives you something. Right. Dr. Canapari: Well also, I mean, I think that if you can convince someone to get an extra hour of sleep at night, they're going to be like, "Oh, that is for me. Right?" Like getting that extra sleep is actually a really powerful tool I have to make my life better. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And, you know, I certainly, you know, Annie and I were talking like, you know, to have finally developed an early morning exercise practice and now I just go to bed earlier cause I feel tired at like 10 o'clock at night and wow. You know, I used to stay up til like 1130 or 12 and I'm like, "Wow, I actually feel *inaudible*" and I'm like a sleep doctor, I should know this, right? It was very easy to stay up and like, you know, watch another show on TV or just kinda, you know, the time gets away from you when you're tired, right? You can just sort of be scrolling through Instagram or watching Netflix and all of a sudden you're like, "Holy crap, it's like 1145." Right. And I see parents where their young child is going to sleep at 11 or 12. It's more common than you'd think. Annie: Wow. Dr. Canapari: And I'm always saying to people, I'm like, "Look, I love my kids, but I am so done with them by like 8:30 at night. You know, like, they need to go to their place and be on their own so I can, you know, my wife and I can unwind." Jen: Right, right. Is there any truth to this fact that getting every hour of sleep you get before midnight is like two hours of sleep that you're getting after midnight? Is there any truth to that? Dr. Canapari: I think that's probably, I haven't heard that. I would say that when it comes down to is, the fit of when you're sleeping versus when your body wants you to sleep. Jen: Oh, okay. Dr. Canapari: I don't know if you guys have ever heard the phrase social jetlag. It's something we think about a lot in teenagers, but it can happen a lot in I think mostly not parents cause we get up early on the weekends. But if you think back, I can think back to before I had kids, I had a weekday bedtime and wake time and a weekend wake time and bedtime and wake time, right. Jen: So your weekends are maybe 2:00 AM to 10:00 AM. Dr. Canapari: Exactly. Jen: Yeah. Okay. Dr. Canapari: So I'm sort of like, on the weekends I was living on California time and the weekdays, I was living in Boston time. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: And we know it's not just the duration of sleep, it's the quality of fit to what your natural body clock schedule is that has a lot to do with it. Like, we know that shift workers, even if they get adequate sleep, are more vulnerable to certain types of cancer, certain types of chronic disease because they're not sleeping at a time where their body really wants them to do it and, we know, you know, you probably know, we all know, are we more of a night owl or a morning lark? A lot of us as parents, we become morning larks because we have to, and there's actually, if you look up online, you can look up a morning-ness, this evening-ness questionnaire that will actually tell you where you fall on this continuum. Dr. Canapari: You know, teenagers are, you know, kids are naturally kind of morning larks. Like most kids before puberty, they tend to want to go to sleep earlier. They want to get up earlier on average though there are exceptions. When they hit puberty, their sleep schedules shifts two or three hours later. So that is our, you know, in the, and that's when all of a sudden your kid that was going to sleep at eight o'clock, can't fall asleep till 11 o'clock at night and it's not just cause they're on snapchat or their smartphones and doing homework on the Chromebook. It's also just their natural biology. So I think that thing you're referring to is probably, you know, get to the idea of are people just not sleeping at a time when their body wants them to do it? That being said, most people are naturally, you know, I'd say if they go to bed between 10 or 11, get up between six or seven. Again, this sounds like a pipe dream for a lot of parents, right? But around there we'll probably feel pretty good. Jen: Can you shift that too, so if you found yourself to be, I mean it may mean some of us are forced to because of our morning lark children, but I recently, I would have considered myself a night person but starting in November I started getting up at 5:30 in the morning just because it feels like the only I can exercise or on days I'm not working out. I can get some work done before my kids are up. I'm less distracted in the mornings that I am in the evenings for whatever reason. And I feel myself shifting where I'm like- Dr. Canapari: It absolutely is something that you can shift. So generally, the levers you have to pull are, the most powerful one is light exposure. So light exposure in the evenings will tend to shift your body clock later and these are slow changes although it is always easier to stay up later, than go to bed earlier. Right. Jen: Right, right. Dr. Canapari: If you want to shift your sleep period earlier, you could probably go 10 or 15 minutes a night. If you wanted to shift your sleep later. Again, it's not usually what I'm trying to do in the clinic or what most parents are like, "Boy, I'd like to stay up three hours later and get up three hours later." Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: But it's easier to go in that direction. So light exposure in the evenings is going to push your clock later and think about, well what's the light emitting device that we hold about 12 inches from our face? Jen: Smartphone. Right. Dr. Canapari: So smartphones will tend to push people's sleep schedules later. Evening exercise will also push it later. Jen: Oh, okay. Dr. Canapari: Conversely, exercising in the morning light exposures, the best is natural light exposure will move things earlier. So someone wants to get in the, you know, like you said, getting up earlier, exercise in the morning. If you can't exercise outside, that's great. Probably in Canada or Connecticut, we're not exercising with natural light in the morning at 5:30 in the morning cause it's still dark out and it's below freezing but those are really helpful things. In our clinic too, we use a lot of Melatonin. Melatonin in the early evenings will help shift people shift their schedules earlier as well. Certainly that's something someone wants to talk about with the doctor. Jen: Right. If melatonin is right for them. Dr. Canapari: Right. Jen: Okay. So back to sleep training kids. I know we don't want to talk too much about infants cause that's not even, we just don't want to spend too much time there because actually our audience has a wide range of age of children. But when I think one of the most controversial things is when to start sleep training a baby. Dr. Canapari: Sure. And I think that, you know, it's funny, there was a couple of years ago, there was an article in New York Times about a group in Tribeca, which is a very trendy neighborhood in Manhattan, was recommending the people sleep, train their kids at two months of age. And you know, they didn't publish anything on this, but they said they were getting good results. But I think that's a little bit too early. If you look at your average baby between four to six months of age, that's when they're going to start going for longer stretches of sleep at night. They're going to start to be able to fall asleep without being soothed by their parents at bedtime. So that implies to me that naturally speaking, they're evolving the capacity for longer periods of sleeping night. Jen: Okay. Dr. Canapari: I would say for most parents, between four to six months is probably the sweet spot. Jen: Okay. Dr. Canapari: But before then, you really, you know, the best thing to do is to soothe your baby to sleep, rock them, nurse them, give them a bottle, lay them down in a bed when they're asleep. Then around four to five months, that's when you can start trying to put your baby down drowsy but awake. And, if they fuss a little bit, that's okay. If they're screaming and yelling, maybe they're not quite ready from a biological standpoint. Right. It's, you know, the funny thing about when I had my second son is I'm like, "Oh, he's not exactly like the first one," which if you asked me intellectually I would've said, "Oh, of course they'll be different," but you expect your child to be this kind of the same. And, you know, and I say, parents just try putting them down drowsy but awake and see how it goes. If your child's hysterical, then wait a week or two and try again. Jen: Right. Okay. Dr. Canapari: If your child's sleeping through the night and you know, no matter what you do, you don't have to sleep train. Right. You know, it's not something you have to do. The reason you do it is so your child can fall asleep independently and stay asleep for the night so that we can get a good night of sleep. Annie: So two and a half is maybe a little too old to be coddling to bed. Is that what you're saying? Dr. Canapari: I mean, I think that it's fine if your child sleeps well at night, right? Like, you know, I always say like, if what you're doing is working, great, you don't have to change a thing. There's nothing, you know, sometimes I lay down with my kids at night at bedtime. My younger ones, like, will kick you out in five minutes. It was like, "That's great dad. You can go." As his words are, "I want to go to sleep in my own time." He doesn't even want me to see him setup his blankets and the older one wants me to stay a little bit longer. And I'm like, "Well, this is precious. He's 11. Pretty soon he's going to want nothing to do with me." So I'm happy to lie there. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it if your child is sleeping great and you're happy with how your child's sleeping, however, if you're not happy with how your child's sleeping, if you have to spend three of those precious hours in the evening laying with them to get them to fall asleep, if they need you multiple times during the night, then you may want to make a change. Dr. Canapari: Right? But you don't have to change anything if you're happy with the arrangement. The same thing with bed sharing. If you have a family bed and it's going great, provided that you're observing safe sleep practices with an infant, more power to you, that's wonderful. But if you're not happy and if someone's not sleeping well, then you may need to make a change. Annie: I want to keep the cuddles at bedtime and let her fall asleep on me. I don't want her waking up at night. Jen: Yeah, that's what I like. Annie: I want the best of both worlds. Jen: But I think that's quite common. It's, so there's getting the child to sleep, you know, baby, toddler, child, what, how do you keep a child sleeping? Dr. Canapari: Now that's the trick, right? So you know, I think it was actually, it was Richard Ferber, which came up with this idea of sleep onset associations. The idea that your child falls asleep under a certain set of circumstances, and then naturally, as he or she goes through the night, she wakes up at night. We've all experienced that. We may wake up at two or three in the morning, adjust our pillow rollover and go back to sleep. You may not even remember it if you're up for five minutes, but you know, as Ferber talks about in his book, if you woke up in another bedroom, you might be like, "What the Hell is going on?" And you might go investigate. So, it's hard to know what babies are thinking. But if your child falls asleep with you present and then goes through a natural awakening at night, she might need you to go back to sleep. Dr. Canapari: That's why working on independent sleep at bedtime tends to make those nighttime awakenings go away. Because once your child is able to put herself to sleep, she can go back to sleep with a natural awakening. And this dovetails nicely with a phenomenon we've all seen. Your child will have three hours of the deepest sleep of the night, stage three sleep, slow wave sleep at the beginning of the night. So that's like if you're driving back from somewhere, your kid falls asleep. You can pick your kid up, change the diaper, put them in a bed, they don't wake up and that's about two or three hours of sleep. But then, say you put your child to sleep at eight o'clock, you're getting to bed 11, all of a sudden you hear your kid calling for you, right. Because that's when they come out of that stage of sleep and they go through a period of REM sleep, REM sleep, or dream sleep clusters in the second half of the night. And it happens every two to three hours after 11 o'clock, that's when your child is going to wake up and request your presence. Jen: That's exactly what's going on in my house. It starts around 11. Dr. Canapari: Yeah, exactly. Just when you're getting the bad and you're lying- Jen: Yes. Dr. Canapari: Maybe tonight's going to be different, right? Lauren: Right. I remember that sense of dread. 11 o'clock. Jen: And that's actually when my sons, my boys go to bed at about 7:30, between 7:30 and 8 and they go to bed really well independently. But when my son was having really intense night terrors, I could almost set my watch to it. It was around 10 30 or 11 when he would start screaming. But now he's not having his night terrors s just getting up and coming to find me. And you know, parents are too tired, you're too tired to take them back to the bed. So he crawls in bed with us and I'm not happy with that, but it just seems like our best option right now. And I think what I found, cause I had mentioned earlier, I found on your website to talk about sleep aids and I think I'm my son's sleep aid. Like it's me. It's actually, and when he goes to his grandparents' house, he does not wake up through the night. He sleeps all night. It doesn't go looking for anybody. Dr. Canapari: Is it frustrating? Jen: It's so frustrating. Dr. Canapari: I guess you're doing it wrong. You know, I always like my parents applying like the finest seventies parenting techniques. No, when my kids are over there and I'm like, you know, I just, you know, give them like Coca Cola, like all the stuff that I'm like, I would never permit in my household and, you know, it's fine. But that is one of those things. And that's why I think one of the things in your outline, is I think is, I just want to get to is, is dividing sleep responsibilities in the household. If there's a two parent household, it's very important that both parents participate at bedtime. And, I can't tell you often I hear the story of you know, someone and it's, let's be real here, if it's a mom and a dad in the household, it's usually the mom coming in and saying, "Well, he'll only go asleep for me." Dr. Canapari: And the dad may say, you know how dads are, "I can't do this. You know, you have to do it." And, you know, I think that best practice is at an early age, get both parents involved at bedtime. But if, you know, sometimes, as you said, sometimes mom needs to go out of town. Right? Like if you can't, if you leave town for a couple of days, guess what? The dad's gonna figure it out and your kid will figure out it as well. It's not like if you, you know, if you had to go away on a work trip, your child would not sleep for five days. Right? Like, that's just not how it works. And I think it's really important that any one of the household who is a caregiver helps. Dr. Canapari: And, you know, I even give parents a script. I mean, I to say, you know, "I know we're both concerned about our son's sleep. I really need your help. You know, like, the doctor says you need to help at bedtime and I'm going to go out." You know, it's likewise in blended households, if parents are separated, like single parents, et cetera, it's very important that kids have the same set of rules and have consistency at both homes if there are sleep difficulties. This is the struggle for a lot of families. I mean, you know, many, you know, every parent wants the child to sleep well, but say they're at mom's house on the weekdays and on the weekends the Dad may let the kids stay up later, and just lie with them to go to sleep and that you know, that it's fine if things are going great but if things aren't going well it's really important that everyone who cares for the child get on the same page. Jen: Right. And with the same routines. Dr. Canapari: I mean it's not going to be the same in both households but as close to possible in terms of the timing, in terms of what you do and specifically in terms of is a parent there when the child falls asleep or not? Annie: Right, right. Okay. Do you have any, I know you have a whole chapter in your book dedicated to sleep environment and location and I think there's probably a lot information in that chapter that could apply to adults in addition to kids. Do you have any, are there any like non negotiables are things that you would really encourage people to consider in their sleep environment? Dr. Canapari: Oh man. I'd say getting the screens out of the bedroom and, I think there is, when I started working as a sleep doctor, when I finished my training in 2007, the big argument was does your kid have a TV in the bedroom or not? Right. That was what, you know, that was often the conversation. That's often the conversation I was having with families would be like, "You need to remove the television from your child's room because they're sleeping poorly." Nowadays it's not a conversation about television in the bedroom, it's about tablets, smartphones, et cetera. And we know these devices are corrosive to sleep, you know, as we were talking about earlier, the bright light can actually shift your biological clock later. We also know that these devices are profoundly addictive, right? Like Instagram doesn't make money if you're not looking at Instagram. Jen: There's a lot of research put in to how to keep people there. Dr. Canapari: The smartest psychologists in the world are in Silicon Valley trying to addict you to these services. Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. And, I encourage people to keep them out of their bedroom and really to be pretty strict. I love now on, what's the feature called on the iPhone? It's screen time. Lauren: Screen time. Yeah. Dr. Canapari: It's generally been a positive with my kids, except when I'm at work on a snow day, say, and they keep sending me messages to give them more screen time, but I think they kind of get it. And I also liked in my phone says at 10 o'clock being like, you know, it basically kind of shuts it down and I can bypass it. But taking that step being like, "Do I really need to keep scrolling through this right now?" You just need that little check and really ideally keeping the devices out of the home because, you know, I'm very careful about shutting off alarms on my phone. My wife has all these alerts on her phone. So if like something on the Guardian website, the UK goes off a news alert goes in the middle of the night, she gets an alarm and I'd be like, do we must we know what, what the queen said in the middle of the night? Sometimes I get up in the middle of the night and I turn off her phone. Jen: So just getting all those alerts off notifications, like just- Dr. Canapari: Yeah, if you can keep out of the room and if your kids are little, setting this example now will pay dividends when they get older. Right. Jen: Yeah. My son, I did this as an incentive for them to get their butts going and get ready for school in the mornings. They are allowed to watch TV or play video games once they are ready for, ready to go for school. So that just got them go hustling. Right. So they could watch some TV before school and when it started they would, that meant 10 of TV before we had to leave for school. But I have found over the last year that it has increased because they're getting up earlier and I am not sure. I'm wondering if that's because there's some kind of habit or something built in where they're there, maybe start rousing a bit in the morning, but then all of a sudden it's like "TV, I can watch TV." And so it's, I didn't mean to, so there's, it's like they're sleeping less and I don't know if there's any science behind that, but I swear if I cut out TV in the morning, they'd sleep longer in the mornings. Dr. Canapari: Well, I mean, how badly do you want to do that, right? Jen: I don't know, I don't know if it's negotiable or not. Dr. Canapari: In general, I like incentives for behaviors that are desirable and really getting kids ready in the morning are one of those situations where you have so little leverage, right? Jen: Right. Dr. Canapari: Like if your child, if your child is difficult in the morning, what is the outcome for them? You have to drive them to school. Like they know that they have you over a barrel. I think that maybe putting a limit on being like, well you know, here's the maximum amount of screen time you could get. But it is one of those things like as you go through the night, your sleep gets lighter and lighter. Right? That's why it's so much harder to get kids to stay asleep. Especially to do early morning awakenings than it is to get them to fall asleep. Both in terms of behavioral techniques and even, cause I see kids with sleep problems bad enough I write for prescriptions. Dr. Canapari: Any medicine that can last long enough to keep a kid asleep in the morning is going to last too long. You just can't calibrate it that way. So I think that if your children are functioning well in the morning and going to sleep at a reasonable hour, they're getting enough sleep. I wouldn't worry too much about it unless it's disruptive. But if you feel like they're really struggling during the day, like if the teachers are giving you feedback or they're falling asleep on short car trips during the day, then maybe you want to think about a different incentive to get them going. Annie: Right. Right. Jen: Right. Lauren: I'll say, Jen, something that we did with Elliot this year is she would wake up at like 4:00 AM and come in my room and wake me up. "Is it morning time yet?" Cause it's dark, you know, when she would wake up I'd be like, "No, go back to sleep." She'd come in at five. "Is it morning time yet?" So we got this little alarm clock thing that lights up green when it's morning. Dr. Canapari: The "Is It Ok To Wake?" clock? Lauren: Yes. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. No, I think, I think that works really well. And, you know, it's, I think Andy alluded at the beginning, my younger son was, for a while, was a real early riser. I mean, I remember going to Disney World when he was like seven and taking him for walks so my older kid and wife could sleep until 6:30 in the morning, you know, like, I like the okay to wake clock and an older child to who can get it, you can be like, look, "You can get up and play in your room and read books." Lauren: Yeah. She's five, so she's old enough to understand, you know. Dr. Canapari: Yeah. I mean a two or three old is just going to roam, right. You know, but and that's the important thing too, you know, in terms of the sleep training conversation, it is very clear that sleep training, even cry it out sleep training is effective and it's safe. But the best study, looking at the safety of it, they were looking at things like that always gets trumpeted as side effects of sleep training, elevated cortisol levels at all, et cetera. It all was fine at the time where kids were age five and it really seemed like most kids were sleeping pretty well by age five, no matter what you do. There are exceptions to this, right. You know, I've explained this in my home, in my clinic certainly, but I think the message to parents is positive. Like address the problems you need to address for your sanity. If you're doing things that you know aren't quite best practices like lying with your two and a half year old until they fall asleep and they sometimes crawl in your bed at night but you can live with that, that's okay. Your child is going to be fine. If you are okay, if you can live with it, right? It's like parenting is an exercise in compromises. You can't potty train your kid and sleep train your kid and like you can't fix everything at once. So it's okay, pick a problem you want to work on and work on that. Let the other stuff slide you're going to be okay. Annie: I think that's a wonderful message to wrap up on because it's like, it's very much in line with our program as well. Like, find what works for you and it's good enough. That's all the is really important. Even if it's not best practice, you know, the ideal or whatever it is. Dr. Canapari: Well. Yeah, and I think that if, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe one of the focuses that you guys talk about with, is clients the right term? Annie: Members, yeah. Dr. Canapari: Your members is weight control, right? And I just want to leave with you with, I think that's something that's so important is we know that sleep curtailment is associated with increased appetite and increased weight gain. And, I just saw a great research talk showing that the hormonal reasons for this were different for in men and women. But the outcome is kind of the same, that if we sleep poorly, we accumulate more adipose tissue, more fat. We have more hedonic eating, craving for salty, sugary foods. So I think, and of course I'm biased, but for people that are struggling with their weight, improving their sleep is such a important thing to do. And if the way you do that as improving your child's sleep, think about that as another goal why this is worth your effort, right? If, we'd all like to, most of us, you know, want to maintain a healthy weight, and working on sleep is going to help people do that. So I think that's an important message even if your members don't have kids, working on their own sleep is going to be a really high yield thing for them to do in terms of their health. Jen: Right, right. So like regular sleep will lead to more regulated eating, which leads to a stable regulated weight. Dr. Canapari: Absolutely. Annie: There's not much that more sleep wouldn't do good for people. I can't think of any, too many negative outcomes for more sleep. Dr. Canapari: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that most of us professionals, grownups, we're working on sleep debt, we need to chip away at it because it's going to help us be healthier, feel better, and you know, to kind of be the people we want to be. Annie: Yeah. Thank you so much doctor. There's so much good information here. I can't, I think our listeners are just going to really, really appreciate this. And we will send links to go find your book because I'm sure by the time we release it will be out. So congrats on the book and thank you for joining us. We appreciate your time. Dr. Canapari: Thanks guys. It was fun. And yeah, I'm sorry we didn't answer all the questions you sent me in advance, but I'd be happy to come talk to you guys again some time. Annie: Yes. We'll have to have you back for sure. Okay. Dr. Canapari: Take care. Jen: Thank you. Lauren: Bye. Dr. Canapari: Bye guys. Annie: This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.  

  Jen, Annie and Lauren are joined by Renae Regehr of Free To Be Talks to discuss how to support our middle school kids in developing media literacy and better body image. Teaching kids to navigate social media and the messages about their bodies is so important. Learn what to say when you don’t know what to say and enjoy this stimulating conversation. What you’ll hear in this episode: How Free To Be Talks was born Which age groups responded best to the curriculum Embodied media literacy: what does it mean? Head knowledge vs lived experiences The blind spots we have about the impact of media messaging Helping our kids cultivate self-compassion Do you really need to have all the answers as a parent? Being vulnerable with our kids in an age appropriate way Role modelling for our kids Appearance-based compliments and the need to balance them Being mindful of the language we use to describe our children’s bodies Body acceptance: accepting our own bodies and those of our kids The subtext of unattainable beauty ideals Equipping our kids to separate their value as people from their social media metrics Finding validation from within Being mindful of how much of our identity is rooted in our appearance Healing body image issues in context, with the help of others Body diversity on social media, feeling seen and represented Maintaining perspective about the importance of our appearances Being judicious about how much mental energy we devote to our appearance   Resources: Free To Be Talks Hillary McBride podcast mothers daughters body image Sisters podcast Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Discount code: Free2bbalanced Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life radio. This is your host Annie Brees and today we are talking about middle schoolers and media. Media is reaching our youth younger and younger by the day. In fact, the average kid spends eight hours a day consuming media and it's one of the primary reasons as to why 40% of six to 12 year olds don't like who they are because of how they look. Negative body image, depression, anxiety, and eating disorders are on the rise, but thankfully women like Renae Regehr are taking action against that. Renae founded Free To Be Talks, a nonprofit organization that promotes positive body image which gives tools to youth, parents and educators to help them filter through media and develop their individual strengths. Through her MA of Counseling Psychology, Renae developed and tested a research based curriculum inside Free To Be and to date over 2,500 boys and girls have gone through the program. Renae is a registered clinical counselor and also contributing blogger for the Huffington Post and her work has been featured in Time, Darling, Good Men Project, Everyday Feminism and many more. On today's episode, Renae, Jen and I discuss three important points in helping middle school age children develop positive body image and if you listen to the very end, Renae shares a really special gift and opportunity with our listeners. I know you're going to love this episode. Enjoy Annie: Ladies, we have a full house today. Again, we have a special guest. Renee, welcome. How are you? Renae:  I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. Annie: I am so excited to have you here because Jen has just raved about everything that you're doing. Can you tell, how did you and Jen meet? Renae: We met, I believe, through mutual connections. Jen: Yeah. Through Hillary Mcbride who we've had on our podcast twice. And Hillary, I expressed to Hillary that I, you know, I do all this work and we have this worldwide audience, but I still feel my ultimate vision for my life is that I'm actually making an impact in my community where my children are growing up. And she said, "You have to meet Renae. She runs a nonprofit called Free To Be Talks. So I started following you on Instagram and then as soon, the next time you offered a training, I signed up. Renae: Yes. And there's been some changes since then and I can't wait to talk about them. Annie:  Renae, you are a registered clinical counselor. How did you get into this Free To Be Talks, like, how did that come about? Renae:  Oh, I feel like it's been like my life work, really. But when I was going through my master's, I developed a curriculum for a group class that I was running. And at the time I had a friend that was in the school system in my hometown and she said, you know, I want to run this program. And I said, "Okay, well I've developed this rudimentary curriculum, why don't we run this body image program together?" And so these grades six and seven girls volunteered on their lunch hour to be a part of this group. And it was so eye opening because not only did the same struggles that I had gone through when I was a teen, those things were coming up again for the girls but I would say there even more pressures that the girls were facing with the rise of social media and just different factors that were impacting them. Renae:  And so I went to my research supervisor at the time and I said, "This is what I'm doing. I'm running the program. Can I create this for my master's thesis?" And he said, "Well, if there's a problem in the literature, then yeah, go for it." So I said, "Okay, challenge accepted. And I dove deep into the research literature and I wanted to know, like, what had been done, what still needed to be done, what was helpful, what wasn't maybe so helpful. And then from there I emerged and with this new vision of okay, this is what's been helpful, this is what we need to do. And really from that, a couple of things. One was that we needed to move more from a pathology perspective. So not just focusing on what are problems with body image, but what do we do now that we know what these problems are like, what the "So what?" to this problem here? Renae: Where do we go from? And really utilizing them like a strengths perspective so we can deconstruct something but then we need to be able to build it back up again. And then the second thing with that is we need to include boys in this conversation and although boys have been included in this conversation, more so in the last five to 10 years, I would say, historically and previously body image has primarily been thought of as a girls issue. And so from that I approached my supervisor and I said, "Hey, this is what I found. There is definitely a need in healthy body image programs. And so I started to create Free To Be, and I actually ran with grade tens as my first group and did the analyses with them. And although the research showed that it was effective, just my clinical intuition and when I was running the program, it felt like I was doing a lot more intervention with the kids. Renae:  And even though they were receptive and you know, we had good conversations, we then ran it with grade six and sevens. And that was really where we hit the sweet spot because these issues were becoming so relevant to them. Their bodies were starting to change, their bodies were on their mind a lot more and they were really engaging with the material. And so from there it started to just take off and I realized, you know, I can't just keep this to myself. And that always had been my vision that I wanted to expand it beyond me. Years ago I actually had a blog and it was called Bigger Than My Voice because I wanted it to be bigger than me. And so from there after, as I was developing free to be, I realized I can make this bigger than me and I've had so many incredible women come around that have either identified with my story or have had kids that have impacted or they've had body image struggles when they were younger and they wanted to take it, run with it and teach the curriculum around North America now. So it's kind of like the short version of everything. Annie:  I love it because- Jen: I had my own goosebump moment. It's amazing. Like I would say grade six is when I started becoming aware of my body. Like everything happened a lot for me in grade six. It was like all of a sudden boys became very, like, a thing in my life and my body started changing and a lot of, and even other girls, their bodies were changing at a more rapid rate than mine. And I was like, "What's wrong with my body?" And you just, yeah, it's grade six was, yeah, a big year for me, personally. Renae:  Yeah. Grade six, grade six, grade seven. And because girls, you know, we develop earlier than boys, you know, there's a wide range of like when we're developing and our bodies are just so much more on our minds then. And so it makes sense that to be able to be armed with tools about, you know, what's going on around us, how is this impacting us? Could be, is so helpful to be like, "I'm not weird. I'm normal, this is normal. This is normal. What we're all going through." Jen: Yeah, absolutely. The other thing, Renae, is why I was so excited to find you is because we work with women and I like, I love working with them. I'm sure many of them are listening. I love working with them, but sometimes I start to feel like, "Oh," like I just, I feel like we're on the reactive side of, you know, building communities and treating, you know, this issue where I want it to be on the preventative. And I also wanted to be involved on the preventative side because I don't want to keep raising generations of women that just need treatment, right. Lauren:  Yeah. And I'll add to that too, like, because we work with women, we have them coming to us say, "Okay, how can I prevent this for my child? What can I do to be that preventative role model for them?" Renae:  And there's so much that parents can do. That is something that I've, that I always, when I went on, whenever we run the Free To Be program, there is a pamphlet that we hand out in the beginning and we always stress to teachers, to parents, to whoever's running the program, hand these out because these conversations that we are starting at school are so much more impactful if they can be continued at home and deepened at home and expanded at home because that's where so much learning occurs. Annie:  Absolutely. And something that I think we hear often in our community too is that women want to have these conversations or parents are obviously, we work pretty exclusively with women. They want to have these conversations with their girlfriends, with their kids, but they're so worried about if they're saying the right thing or not that they just don't say anything at all. Like, you know, "Okay, my daughter comes home and is asking about calories or someone called her fat or you know, she's being bullied or she's being picked on or she wants to lose weight or she wants to get a fitbit. I mean it's just these daily conversations that they're almost like, I'm so worried I'm going to say the wrong thing and they're gonna like permanently feel that type of way forever and ever. So it's really great to have you on here because I actually, I said, "Can you just give us the main talking points and kind of do's and don'ts about how we can help promote positive body image for middle schoolers?" Which is like your jam, right? Renae: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And even when you sent me that request in that talk, I was like, well, you know, we could just talk about it and where it goes because we literally could talk about this for hours and hours and hours. Annie: Absolutely. Renae: But that can just be overwhelming. So- Annie:  Yes. So you came back with three, which I appreciate. These are the three, like the, really, I'm guessing kind of the big rocks that you feel are really important. If you want a place to start, these would be three good areas to spend some effort or give some attention to, yeah? Renae: Yes. And even the way I structured those three, they are, we could talk about them in depth for a lot, a long time. And so do you want to go through them one by one? Or do you want me to sort of list them off? Annie: Yeah, well here, the first one that you listed off was develop embodied media literacy. Not just head knowledge, but experiences that help them know and experienced their bodies as good and powerful. Can you tell me what that means? Renae:  Okay. This has become a big one for me recently because I cannot tell you enough. I go do these talks. I do these presentations in addition to running Free To Be, and I will talk to kids or I'll talk to teenagers and they're so smart. They are very smart, they're savvy, they know what's going on. And so we'll talk about Photoshop, we'll talk about appearance pressures, we'll talk about things that are impacting about social media, how it can be used as a tool for good or as a tool that can, you know, be a portal into isolation or anxiety or this comparison trap that you get stuck in and they can be so articulate and their responses and yet then they'll tell me, "Yeah, this can really impact some people, but it doesn't impact me." Renae:  And that's just not how our brains work. What we are exposed to is going to impact us. Like, my brain isn't locked in some special fortress where I'm not impacted by the messages and ideas around me. And, so they can be critical of these messages or ideas and and yet they embody them at the same time. It was, I was struck so much by this realization a couple of months ago when I was chatting with a particular group of girls and this girl was telling me about all of these things, and here she was with fake eyelashes and embodying all the appearance ideals and on her phone on Instagram scrolling through things. And it's not that wanting to invest in your appearance or following beauty trends is bad or wrong or anything like that. It's the fact that there's this disconnect that we think that things impact other people but not us. Jen: 100% we see this all the time. I know exactly what you, they like, they know but they can't embody. There is just a total and I have been there so I get it like it's- Renae:  Yes and I get it because there's so many factors that are involved in creating our body image that go into our body image. And so I really started to stress this embodied media literacy because it's not just head knowledge. We can have head knowledge until we are blue in the face with, like, understanding something. But if we don't experience our bodies as good, as agents of power, as a place to connect with others, as something that is powerful, then a lot of the message is lost because our minds and our bodies are so connected and we need to be able to experience our bodies as good. Renae:  And so in presentations I never just talk and so much of Free to Be isn't just talking. It's experiencing your body as something that is good and moreover we're so much in relationship with others. So we need others. We need to have that experience where others experience us and we feel experienced. We receive the experience of being seen as good enough for who we are. And so there's so many things that we can do to get that embodied media literacy. But that's that embodied piece. And then the media literacy media literacy piece is really just helping them critically digest and understand like what is going on in the media around us and not just the media, like in our friends and in our family. Because all of these fears are so important because we ended up internalizing these messages ourselves and they become our narrative and the way we live our life. And so it's not just the media literacy, the critical digestion, it's also the embodiment piece that we need those two together so much.   Jen: So would you say, Hillary McBride talked about this in her first podcast with us because Hillary McBride experienced an eating disorder and actually she ended up in inpatient care and she talked about how she said her mom would tell her to eat her lunch at school, but she would come home and her mom's lunch would be uneaten in the fridge. And is that kind of what you're saying? Like it has to, we have to embody this message. Renae: Yes. I'm just trying to think about the best way to say this because it's, we can tell our kids that they are, you know, they're beautiful, they're wonderful til like tell it to the moon and back. We can say that to them over and over and over again. But if they don't see us also embodying the message, if they see us, you know, talking disparagingly to ourselves. If they see us, cook a delicious meal and then we serve them this wonderful food and then we're off in the corner just eating her salad and like restricting ourselves in what we're eating. Those, they're developing an inconsistent message about what they're about, messages about food, about their bodies. But they're learning also simultaneously that some things are good, some things are bad. And our parents model that behavior to us from such a young age. You know that from the comments that we make about, you know, "Oh, you're so beautiful," to what we eat, to how our clothes fit and we don't, I've got to stop right there for a second. We can, like, we can talk about each one those specifically- Jen: For ever and ever and ever and ever. Renae: Exactly but there is, our parents are so influential in how, in embodying and delivering this message and living and living this message. Yeah. Jen: Brene Brown talks about this quite a bit. She has a book called imperfect parenting that it is the only parenting book I will ever recommend to anybody. But she talks about what do you, you know, it is far more impactful to be self compassionate than to tell your kids they should be self compassionate. Renae:  Yes, because that outer voice becomes their voice. Jen: Absolutely. Renae: When they are, when you mess up as a parent and when I mess up as a parent because oh my goodness, I do mess up and I make mistakes or even simple things like I'm driving and I take the wrong turn, instead of being like, "Oh my goodness, I'm such an idiot" being like "Ah! Mistakes happen" and, or I mess up at home or I mess up doing something else. And you know, being able to repair and model that repairing and being able to model being disappointed, even with the actions that I've made. And doing that in a healthy way isn't a sign of weakness. I think it's a sign of being able to model a way of being because our emotions are, we all have emotions and they're fundamental to the way we live and experience life. Renae: And so if I can give my children the gift of, you know, this is how, these are healthy ways that you can experience sadness or anger or like those tough emotions that don't feel comfortable, then we are, I think that's a big gift to be able to give them. Jen: Totally. Renae: And so many body image issues, are tied to insecurities, feeling anxious, feeling not enough, feeling embarrassed, feeling shame. And nobody likes sitting with those. They're not, they're uncomfortable. And so learning to be able to sit with those as parents and model that, oh, it's such a gift and it's hard. Oh it's so hard. Jen: It's so hard. And I also, I was talking with one of our Balance365ers about this last week. She struggles with caring for herself, you know, being self caring and self compassionate. And I think that it's important to understand that, well, not understand, but just to note, it might not feel natural for us, especially if we were raised by somebody who was, you know, very hard on herself or hard on us. And I think that was pretty typical that our parents came from a place of shaming, right, to discipline. And Brene Brown talks in her book about how if you're a parent who, you know, didn't shame your kids, it's like you would be shamed for not shaming them. So it was just so that's how everybody parented. And so now we have this, these generations of people who really struggle with shame and there's an element that comes in as far as being self compassionate and self loving and more, having a positive body image things, a dialogue, I guess I should say. Jen:  There's such a thing as faking it til you make it right. Like, it might not feel natural, but, it's like, I just feel so strongly on the days when I just, I don't want to be self compassionate. I feel responsibility to be self compassionate for my children because I know they're watching and I never want them to question it or it to feel unnatural. I don't want them to struggle with the same things I did. And so I just sometimes don't have the energy to be kind to myself. It's just, it's in my nature to be really hard on myself. And I think, but I always have the energy for my kids and I just, I, yeah. So even when embodiment doesn't feel natural for me I feel like I feel this sense that I have to, you know, I have to for my children. And so yeah, I think a lot of people wait to take action on them. We hear this all the time in a self love sense, but they're waiting to be kind to themselves because they're waiting to learn to love themselves, but- Renae: They need feel that right. before they act on it, right, yeah, Jen: Right. But it comes from actions of self care. Renae: And it's the same thing that you would, we would tell a client that's struggling with depression. You don't wait to go for a walk. You don't wait to feel better til you go for a walk. You go for a walk and then you'll feel better. And it's the same thing with these acts of self compassion and it does feel foreign and we can validate that even in ourselves and be like, "Yeah, this feels really weird and uncomfortable but I'm still going to try it and I'm going to do it anyways because I know it's the right thing to do even if it is uncomfortable." And even as parents, you know, we want to be, we want to have shoulders that are big enough for our kids to know that, you know, they can come to us with their big emotions and our shoulders are big enough to handle and to help them to support them. Renae: So I think there's, you know, I like what you're articulating that with our kids we want to be able to model that and you know, being aware of who is the adult and who's the child. And yet at the same time being vulnerable to model what it's like to be disappointed or to be uncomfortable with yourself. I think that, I think that it's a tension that we have to, we have to grapple with and we have to, we may not always get that right perfectly, but it's something that there's no one way or the other way that we can go in order to have a healthy relationship, we need to be able to say, "Okay, you know, this is a hard day for me. I'm having a hard day. I don't have a lot of patience right now. And then whether we tell them the details, whether that's age appropriate or not is something else to consider that we need to be mindful of, you know, depending how old they are because we don't want to put them in a parental role. But at the same time, you know, if they're older than we, even when they're younger telling them, you know, "Mommy's having a hard day or I'm having a hard day. But I'm a big girl." My daughter's two. Jen: I'm a big girl. Renae: I'm a big girl and I can handle it. But just, you know, teaching that, that it's okay that even as adults we have hard days too. Annie: Yeah. Jen: Yeah. Annie:  I think that's beautiful. It's not, so what I hear you saying Renae is that it's not that you need to, like, be perfect all the time. It's that, like, there's power in expressing, like, "Hey, I'm struggling too or this is hard for me or this is difficult or I'm overwhelmed or I'm angry about this, but this is how I'm going to handle it or this is what I'm going to do about it, or this is my choice." And I think that's great because you know, I think there is pressure to feel like, especially when it comes in terms of body image, like I said at the beginning to say all the right things all the right time and like, to have all the answers and it's like, maybe you don't know, you know, like I don't, I don't know. How do you feel about that? What do you think? Jen:  Yeah, what do you think? Annie:  -can be a great answer. Just have a discussion. Like you don't have to like have this perfect like Brene Brown answer, Renae: Or even "Let's go find the answer together." Jen: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. Renae: Right. And, that being committed to finding an answer and to finding a solution, wanting to do that together in a way that's healthy and productive not only teaches that, you know, you don't have to have all the answers, but also how to problem solve and how to, find some answers and then to be, to, to be stuck is, we all get stuck sometimes and it sucks being stuck, stuck, stuck. And, and as a parent, you know, we really want to be able to provide that roadmap. Something that has been so helpful to me, even just not even as a therapist but as like a because I have three children and they're all very different in my son's eight months old. I have two year old daughter and an eight year old son and I have this idea of, you know, how I want my kids to be and I don't want them to struggle and I don't want them to have big problems in their life, like any parent. Renae: And yet then sometimes when I parent, I think of myself as a construction worker who, like, takes a two by four and I'm hammering together this house that I am creating. But that's totally not the way parenting works. Parenting is more like tending to a garden and it's a plot of land that has its own type of soil. Each soil is a bit different. Even when you move down the road, you know, slugs get in, there's different types of, there's amount of rain, like you have to tend to the garden and be attentive to the garden, but at the same time, the garden's going to grow the way the garden is going to grow. There's so many things that are out of your control as the gardener and as a parent. And so learning to work with that, it also, I think that can be so freeing as well too because we can have such good intentions and we can be, we can be so invested in our kids, but there is, like, there's so many things that, just our kids' genetics, the experiences that our kids are having in school, there's so many factors that are involved in developing their body image and just even developing who they are that we can't put all the weight solely on us as parents, as directing the course of, like, this is the way they're going to be because well, A, it's going to fail because they have free will and they're going to do it and they're going to, and they're going to do things that we don't like sometimes. Renae:  But they're also going to have their own minds and learning to cultivate that in the sense of thinking of ourselves as gardeners. To me, it's such a freeing way of thinking, freeing but also a huge element of responsibilities still in parenting and you know, realizing we don't have to be perfect parents but we have to be attentive and attuned and that's so much more, I think, gracious comes to my mind. Like we can be gracious with ourselves and we can even start that self compassion talk with ourselves too. Because sometimes our kids do things that we just, we just don't like. And it's, it's, we can, yeah, we can learn to be still present and attuned and still tend to the garden of our children. Jen: I think too, when you put, you know, when you have, you're trying to will your child to be a certain way and bringing it back to body image, what we have talked about in a previous podcast is sometimes the biggest hurdle for mothers and fathers as far as letting go and doing the things that we kind of know need to be done to help your child develop a healthy relationship with food comes down to accepting your child's body for what it is sometimes, you know, and that can be really a big hurdle for men and women and they come, you know, men, we all come with our own experiences. So for a woman who grew up being teased about her weight on the playground and that that becomes a wound and that wound goes festering her whole life. And then she has a daughter and starts from a very young age trying to control her daughter's food intake because she's so afraid of her daughter being fat and having that same experience that is such a hard thing to deal with. Jen:  But ultimately you have to, you know, our own body acceptance is one thing. But as a parent you have to accept your child's body as well for what it is. And it can just, it can be so tempting and some people just do it unconsciously trying to kind of control their child's body size. But ultimately I don't think you're doing your child any favors, you know, by trying to, will them into a certain body size so they don't get teased. You need to work on developing that resiliency at home and that positive body image and- Renae:  and a lot of that comes down to language as well, too. And learning to talk about our bodies in a way of like what is your body capable of doing and exercise is so important. Not even, like there's so many health benefits that you are all aware of for exercise from, you know, depression and anxiety and just in addition to just bodily health benefits and you know, for mental health benefits as well too. And but reframing exercise and reframing moving our bodies in a way not to reduce our shape or to change our weight, but rather to promote health because then we're moving from a place of not lack. We don't, we want to move to a place of fullness and not where we're changing our bodies to become smaller, to become, to reduce in size but rather to become more fully alive and more fully who we are. Renae:  And I think a lot of that even, so that's one thing that we can do just when we come to exercise. But then the other thing with exercise, because it is so important, and I also, I have parents talked to me about this as well, is that, you know, do things together and make it fun and make it a time of like bonding and where you're experiencing your body in new ways together. And I mean, and it doesn't have to be something like going for a hike or going for a swim, you can do some simple things like dancing or my kids are really little so even like wrestling. Jen:  Right. Renae:  Lots of things that we can do where we can, like, move our bodies in just, like, daily ways that are fun and active. Right? Jen:  Right. Yeah. Annie:  It looks a lot more like play, you know, than, which I think trips a lot of people up, a lot of parents up when they think about, you know, getting active as a family. It's like I don't, when we get asked to have a family, it's not like we're doing an aerobics youtube class, we're, like, we're running and we're playing, we're jumping, we're, you know- Renae:  Playing hockey, climbing trees. Like there's lots that you can do and it's about lifestyle, though. It's learning to experience your body in a way as like a lifestyle that is a vessel to adventure and voyage in the world. Annie:  Yeah. Kind of on that same note, you were on the tip of the iceberg there, Renae is, your second point is to be mindful of your language by cultivating all of who they are and you know that we focus on what we value. So we need to value and grow all parts of our kids, which I don't know where you are exactly where you were headed but what comes to mind is my dad has the best of intentions, but all the time "What a pretty girl, what a pretty-" like to my daughter, "What a strong boy. What a handsome boy." It's just all very appearance space. And there's definitely, you know, the stereotypical little boy, little girl comments that he always gives. And I'm like, "But we're more than that." Is that, is that what you meant? Renae:  Exactly. And it makes sense that, you know, in first impressions that we do focus on appearance because we necessarily know somebody and we can see the outward physical experience of who they are. So we, you know, it's easy to make why we would focus on that, but especially little girls from such a young age and even a little boys, you know, they're so cute or they're so adorable. If that's what we hear growing up time and time again, that is what we are going to value. You know, you think about the news, the news broadcasts, what's valuable, like, what's going on in the world, right? And so you hear it on every single news station and if every single news station is for our kids is highlighting their appearance, it's beautiful, it's wonderful, that's what they need to focus on. Renae: That's what the is going to become at the forefront of their attention and what they're going to need to invest in, what they're gonna need to pay attention to. And so I really become so mindful even more now having kids and especially like my friend's kids or kids that I meet just focusing on just finding anything that I can compliment that focuses on the intention of cultivating their entire personhood. So if my kids are playing Lego, "Oh my goodness, that's so creative in what you've made that took a lot of hard work" or "Wow, you're so, you're so smart in how you figured out this problem" and really trying to help them expand their awareness about all the things that they are capable of doing and to help them just expand their awareness but then just place value on that and speak into that into their life to know this is good. Renae:  There's so many qualities about you that are so good as well. And that can be hard to do in the beginning. Especially when you see somebody that you know, just meeting your friends' little daughter that you've just met for the first time or just haven't seen her in a long time and she's wearing a really cute dress that she got a really cute haircut and you're like, "Oh you're so cute." And I don't think it's bad. And I really don't think it's bad to say, "Oh, you're adorable." But I would say, like, for every one comment that you give that is appearance-focused, try to find a five to seven comments that are not appearance focused because we live in a highly appearance-focused culture from just the fact that we live on our screens so often. And so it's natural that our attention goes to that. Renae:  So being able to cultivate all those other qualities, that's kind of where I'm going with being mindful of our language because again, that external voice that we hear, we internalize that voice. I was just talking to my debt to my husband yesterday about language growing up and about our bodies and experiencing our bodies. And I said, when I was younger my dad always used to pat me on the back really firm, and then say "solid as a horse." I loved horses and it was such a compliment to me because it meant I was strong and I was capable and I, and that and that always stuck with me. And so there's fun ways that you can do that as well. But yeah, that's just something that kind of like stood up for me and these voices become our voices as we get older. Renae:  I grew up, we covered this in one of our podcasts where Annie interviewed me and my sister and, we grew up with very different body types and so, Annie interviewed us on our experience of this and I grew up with people commenting on my body my whole life, like how thin I was, and I just, it was always there, which really speaks more to the women around me, what was going through their heads, right, than anything to do with me. But I would say that contributed greatly to how I ended up developing my values as a woman, right, of what was important. And so I agree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with commenting on someone's appearance or complimenting their experience, you know, but in context, like I love how you said, just really think about it in context of the world we live in. Like there's nothing wrong with telling a little girl she's pretty, or for me to tell Annie she looks beautiful today, but when you, yeah, when you put it in context of the world we live in, that's all we're acknowledging about women. And now we have a society full of women who are, you know, they're making themselves sick, trying to pursue appearance ideals that just aren't even healthy, right. Renae: And it makes sense though, why we are pursuing this because it's so much more than our appearance. So we live in this world where we have these images of these idealized beauty standards where women are, tend to be thin. You know, they have flawless skin, they have this, there's so many factors that are unattainable and that continues to shift, you know, depending on kind of what decade that we are in, but there's still ideals of the case. So this is what a woman looks like right now that, you know, she's considered the beauty standard, but it's not just that, it's this beauty standard. It's the subtext to that. It's this pairing of a beautiful ideal now, like an impossible ideal thanks to, you know, Facetune, Modiface or Perfect365 or any one of those apps or just Photoshop in general. So you have this impossible beauty ideal. But then you also have this, this pairing with love, acceptance, opportunities, mattering. All of these, these images are so closely tied to these deeper fundamental qualities that we all want as humans. We all want to matter. Jen: Yes. Success. Lovable. Connection. Renae:  Exactly. And so we're automatically lured in when we see an image like this or we see, we see something that, you know, even on social media, there's a reason that those numbers are there. Like Instagram didn't, or Snapchat didn't make these platforms and think, I wonder if someone's going to use these platforms. It was like, of course not. They know there's a reason why these likes these views, these metrics are there. Because we conflate that with value and we, equate that to mattering to being seen and we all want to be seen. Like that's, as humans, we're wired to be in connection with each other and so we need to acknowledge that it's complex and it makes sense why some of us, why a lot of us, why we strive to have this beauty ideal, but that's where it goes back to that media literacy and teaching kids about the subtext, about the deeper messages, about the deeper ideas of what's actually being depicted, about what actually is being shown here so that we can help them not only critically digest it but then invite experiences into their lives that are going to allow them to live a holistic life where they're not only thinking about their appearance or they're not only thinking about their, you know, their account following on whatever social media platform they're using because it's, it's a complicated issue and we need to, but they're smart and they can grapple with it from a young age and so we need to equip them from a young age because they're using these platforms from such a young age. Annie:  Which I think is a great segue into your third point, Renae, that you encourage parents to be mindful of how many reminders kids have of their appearance and clothing mirrors, cameras social media and how that shapes our value system. And I actually had that experience just the other day. I was thinking, like, I was just having a rough body image day, which, as it happens- Renae: It does happen, yeah. Annie:  And it was just like, it just seemed like I wanted to capture these photos, or these selfies with my kids, but like, I just couldn't, like, it was just there. It was just right in front of my face all the time. Like every time I opened up Instagram it was like, you know, do an insta story, but I didn't want to be in the photo, but I wanted the photo and it was just like, you know, and then, and even how seeing other people's appearance reminded me of my own as well. Renae:  Yes. Annie: Like it had nothing to do with it, but it was like, I mean, I used to do this, I used to struggle a lot with this when I really, really struggled with body image, probably about five, 10 years ago. It was really hard for me to see other beautiful women because it was just a reminder of all the ways I was feeling. I couldn't just separate the two. I couldn't just admire her attributes or features or traits or whatever, or even see her for more than just a physical thing. I just really struggled to get beyond that and it was somehow I made it into a reflection of all the ways I was lacking. And I would imagine that young girls and boys are dealing with that just as much, if not more with the rise of social media. Renae:  Yeah. And I think just to even springboard off what you're saying there, something that isn't necessarily the most popular opinion, but I think it's something that we do need to acknowledge and grapple with is that beauty is,, there are objective standards of kind of like what is a beautiful person? And I mean it's hourglass shape for women. It's hourglass shape, it's clear skin, it's like bright hair, it's white eyes. These are kind of universal standards of what a beautiful person is. And there's been a big push within the body positivity community and I think has been really well intentioned. But at the same time it's actually been perpetuating this obsession and this focus on our bodies because not people are not going to, like I said, it's been, not everybody is, you know, drop dead beautiful. They're just not. Because if we're all beautiful, then we're actually all average. Beauty is above average. Renae: And the problem with that though is that with hearing that is thinking that "Well, then I'm of lesser value." And that's not at all what I'm saying, and I'm not even talking about inner beauty, we all have inner beauty and because inner beauty is defined by a wide, wide range of like of attributes and characteristics and it's way more important. But this obsession with, you know, liking our bodies for everything that they are, you know, liking all our cellulite, liking every wrinkle, every stray hair, every whatever it is that perpetuates this value system where our focus stays on our bodies. And when we are scrolling on social media, unless you are following like dogs and panda bears or kitty cats, you're being focused on the body, that's just inevitably what's going on. And, so even as like for me as a body image researcher, I have to be so mindful of that. Jen:  And then even like living in Vancouver, I don't live in Vancouver but that's the closest big city that is where I live, Vancouver is world renowned for its architecture on glass, for example. And when what happens when you walk past a glass, like, a mirror, you see your reflection, you, like, check yourself out a little bit. That's just, it's natural. You don't want to feel, you don't need to feel bad about that. But what we do. But then again, it's just that it's that energy that goes back to our appearance. And I think something that we really, really have to be mindful of is that we have a finite amount of mental energy. We have an absolute finite amount of mental energy. And if that is being devoted to our appearance, whether that is good or bad, that is energy that is going elsewhere that cannot be focused on cultivating all aspects of who we are. And so I've really started to take that to heart in my own life. And even just the way even I manage Free To Be and I manage the social media and I manage just the experiences that I invite into my life because it impacts us. It just does. Jen:  The other thing is that we have this as one of our questions in our Balance365 Self Love Journal. So if you take who you are and break it down into a pie chart and if you are kind and funny and a really good friend, a very supportive partner, you know, if you just break it down and if each of those takes up 10% of who you are, who you are, who you consider yourself to be, and appearance is in there, because appearance is part of who we are. If that is 10% of who you are, then when you wake up in the morning with a huge zit or whatever, it doesn't destroy you. It's just a little bit of who you are and you can still function and move along. Or maybe you aren't considered the standard of beauty in our society, but it's just a little piece of who you are, your appearance. Jen:  But the problem is I feel like we have a society of women who were taught that their appearance is 80% of who they are. Renae:  Oh yeah. Jen: And so when they wake up in the morning with a zit, it just, it destroys them or whatever else is bothering them about their appearance. It destroys them and they can barely function in life because their body image is just so, so negative. Or if you have a bad body image day and knowing that your appearance is just a part of who you are, it can allow you to have a bad body image but still function where some people can't get out of bed in the morning when they're having a bad body image day and so really looking at all of who you are, which comes back to what were, you know you had said we need to start teaching our kids and complimenting them for the whole person that they are. Because when we are just complimenting on appearance or just talking about appearance or just scrolling social media and looking at other people's appearances we're starting to build this idea that women are their appearance and then it's just so, so, so then it just becomes, then of course if your parents are 75% of who you are, then 75% of your mental energy is going to go into trying to improve your appearance. But women are just, they are just so much more. Renae: We're so much more than that and yet we're that, that focus on it from such a young age goes to our appearances. So it makes sense that it's so hard to break out of those, like, corseted ideals that we, that we bind ourselves to because that is how we're reinforced and we can't be naive, like, we are, we are rewarded when, when we ascribe or when we try to follow them and let me qualify that, some of us are rewarded and, but we have to be very aware that, that, that power that we get from that that's super short lived. Because it's not true power if, you know, it's going to expire when you're 30 or when your appearance is going to change or if something happens to you. Like that's, we need to, we need to be grounded and centred for deeper things. But it makes sense why we would feel that way and yet we can also work towards then living life differently as well too. Annie:  I've found too, unapologetically, about going to therapy, but one of the things I'm learning is that like my true power comes from within. Like, it's not, I don't get my power from compliments or praise or affirmation or validation from, I don't, I don't get to like outsource my power. And I've tried that for many, many years. Like if they like me then I like me. If they think I'm pretty, then I'm pretty. If they like my work then it's valuable and that feels good in the short term. But it's ultimately not sustain. Like it doesn't fulfill me. And so turning inward, like, do I like me? Who am I? What do I value has been like way more worth my energy than like trying to look a certain way or do a certain thing so other people like me. Renae:  And at the same time, that's like, that's hard to do to put, like, our own beliefs and to put that under a microscope because that can be super uncomfortable to kind of shift away from the thinking that we have had because it does feel good. And then when you think about social media, just going to say one more thing about social media here, you then we are rewarded with those short term signals of those likes, thumbs up and all those things and those things do feel good. You do get, you know the dopamine, a neurotransmitter like dopamine, you get a little rushed and that feels good, but the problem is then we, that's what we ended up seeking more and more and more of that, those short term, the short term validations. And we don't end up doing that deeper work of like, who am I? Renae:  What do I stand for? What do I like? And at the same time living in that tension about acknowledging that our body image concerns don't develop in a vacuum. They develop in context with other people. And so it's going to be so important that we realize that our healing is also going to develop in context with other people where we're going to have to have experiences where people teach us that we are enough, that we are good just the way we are, that we don't have to change, that we aren't too much or too little of something. That healing also is going to have to occur in relationship because we are, we are so wired for relationship. And so it's a, although we want to have, you know, that internal locus of control, we also are dependent on others to be able to have that and also to be seen. Renae:  Cause we need to be seen, we need to matter. And that all happens in context with others. And so it's, I think sometimes I get frustrated when I walk on, when I scroll on social media and I see all these self love inspo quotes and it's, we're shortchanging ourselves because developing these issues didn't develop in isolation. And so healing these concerns isn't also gonna occur in isolation. I just don't, I think that you can find healing through groups on social media, but I'm always so wary of the system, you know, again, because we are rewarded for these likes and these comments and it pulls us and it's so, so powerful. So being able to have conversations like we're having right now where I can see your faces and I can see your expressions. I can see the way you're moving. It's so much more telling than, you know, just liking a post that you put online and it's way more healing and even embodying to be able to do this. And it takes, it's more holistic. It's part of, like, a whole personhood. And again, that goes back to the healing of who we are. Jen:  I wonder what your opinion is on, like, a lot body acceptance slash self love bloggers, influencers, whatever you want to call them. They post photos of themselves, their bodies, you know, in bikini or underwear and supposedly exposing these flaws, right? These "flaws." And people love it and I've heard there's larger organizations like Beauty Redefined talking about how, look if we're trying to acknowledge women as a whole person, we have to move past this constant, you know, barrage of women's bodies. Like if, you know, if you want to love the whole person then we have to look at the whole person. We just can't keep seeing women in bikinis or their underwear showing stretch marks and, I understand what they're saying, but I have to say that personally when I saw that shift start on social media, this is before we founded this company and everything, that was extremely healing for me to see other women's bodies that looked like mine. Like I remember the first time feeling like wanting to sob. Like there's other people out there that look like me. Renae:  Yes, absolutely and I do struggle with this because it's something that it's very, it's very healing to be, when you see yourself represented, you see, you see that as valuable. I think it is important that we do have a wide range of bodies that are out there. And my body has changed drastically after giving birth and being able to see other women's bodies out there, see stretch marks, see saggy boobs, see different things is normalizing and it and that speaks to that deeper issue of wanting to connect and be seen. Right? And we can feel shame when we carry these fears in isolation and we think that we're the only ones and there's just healing by feeling known. And so I think with those photos and that, those, this wider representation of bodies shown is helping a lot of us being known, be accepted. And that in and of itself is healing. And yet at the same time, I also hold the same viewpoint that we do need to move past. We do need to move past just focusing on women's bodies. But they're both incredibly important steps, I think you could say. Or just things that we need to acknowledge intentions that we need to work with. We just can't, we can't dismiss the one and say that it's not healing. Jen:  It's almost like a phase, you know, I had a phase where I was following any woman I could find who was showing her body because I just, I knew I wanted more and more and more of it because it was just so validating for me. Like I just, I felt a release. I felt this just, "Oh my gosh. There's other people out there that look like me" and, but now I feel like I'm in a different phase where I've sort of like, "Okay, yes, there are many other bodies that look like mine and bodies come in all shapes, sizes, colors, and I don't need that in my life as much anymore." Now it's like there's like a phase, I think. Like I feel like I'm on phase two at this point where I- Annie: I personally feel like, cause I feel the same, Jen, but I still post those photos because from time to time, because I do acknowledge that, like, I can acknowledge, like, I know that there's bodies come in a variety of shapes and sizes, but I also know that there's still so many women like you and me and Lauren, you know, five years ago that needed that photo. Jen:  Right. And I see it, I see when you do post pictures of your stomach, Annie, I see when when your stomach is visible in a post, you know, women appreciate it so much. They see this woman who is happy, who is powerful, who loves her body, and has, you know, positive body image and also, is unashamed of these parts of her body that our society- Annie: My humanness. Jen:  Humanness has told us is wrong. It's something that should be hidden. Something we should be trying to fix, something we should be deeply ashamed of. And so I still see it. I still see it because there's always new mothers coming. You know, sometimes we get disconnected almost from what a new mom experiences. And I look back and think, my goodness, the change in me from when I had my first 10 years ago to now like, I mean I thought my body was ruined. I thought I was an abomination after I had my first baby and I can't and I have to, I have to constantly remind myself that there are women who are feeling like that every single day because it's, you know, things have shifted for me. But I think we live in a world where there's more talk of body image today than there ever has been. Like 10 years ago, I feel like it wasn't even an option to love your postpartum body. It wasn't. Where now it's an option, but we still have to make women aware of it. Renae: I think that the tricky line or the line that we want to be aware of, especially from when I think about the research standpoint behind this is the objectification. So when I think sometimes of when I scroll through social media and I see photos of someone posing in a very objectifying pose and then they have this like liberating quote underneath, if you took away the quote and you just were to see the image for what it was, it can reinforce women as being objectified. And again, that's something that, and because we have limited mental energy when we are, when we objectify ourselves, we can internalize that voice. And we then we view our bodies as objects to be consumed, as objects that are, like, viewing pleasure for somebody else. And again, it's so subtle that because we just, we are inundated with diet culture. Renae: We're inundated where women are still seeing so often, in an objectified sense. And so it's something that I just, I really am very mindful of with myself, with even like, even just the research and what I encourage people to do as well too, thinking about, you know, like I do think it's so good to post to how photos of diverse ranges of bodies, but there's a big difference between posting a body that is, you know, having fun or happy or like doing something versus a body and like, and then let's say, you know, I've got stretch marks or I'm, or I've got the, you know, my body's changing. I want to be able to show this is what a body can look like. And this is an aging body and this is a good, and I'm still having fun and I'm having, and this is great, but there's a difference between posting a photo like that versus spending, you know, a long time like A, photoshopping my photo, taking a hundred selfies and then wanting to post only the right photo and then doing it in a way that's, like, very objectifying. Renae: I think we really have to think about like our intentions behind why we are posting those photos. And again, that's not like the most popular opinion to hold. But then when you again, when you look at the research and when you look at how much time and energy we invest into our bodies, I think it's just, we only, we only get one life to live. And I think that's like the driving force behind why I'm so passionate about this message is we get one life to live. And when, I was just at a funeral on the weekend and prior to the funeral I had felt like I had nothing to wear. And then when I was in, when I was sitting in my chair and I was listening in the church to what was being said. And it was, she was an absolutely amazing lady. Renae:  I was like, it would just, it just puts everything into perspective for me again about my goodness, I get one life to live. I want to live my life. I don't want to worry about these additional pressures that I invite into my life. And so tying that all back to the initial conversation about like, about the images that we're seeing out there, I think it's healing. We just need to be mindful of how much energy we're investing into it. Cause when you're dying, we're not going to think, "Oh, I wish I posted more photos of, you know, of my body doing this." And yet at the same time we want to be like, I feel comfortable because I did see women in their bodies, right? So- Jen: Yeah. Right. That's a perfect response. Annie: I want to be mindful of our listeners times here. And I know I have, I'm looking at the outline and I have questions that I still wanted to ask you. So what I would love to do is invite you back next month. How's that sound? Renae:  Great. Annie: Like we said at the beginning, we could talk about this forever and ever. But before we pop off, I know that you have a special gift for our listeners. Do you want to tell them about that? Renae:  Yes, I would if I, for anybody that's listening, if you would like to be trained in Free to Be our research based curriculum, it helps, it's for youth in grades five, six, seven and eight. It helps develop media literacy, cultivate their individual and their group strengths. It really helps with developing gratitude and just a whole, it's a six session program and I want to be able to offer any listener that's out there 30% off the curriculum so you can use the discount code. I believe it's FreeToBeBalanced and I don't know if you're going to link to that in the show notes or anything like that. And so that we can take this conversation outside of, you know, this wonderful podcast and you can actually start to have these conversations with your kids and you can even potentially have your, if you're a teacher you can be trained to run it in your school. And so that we can continue to spread this impact wider because I do just think that there's such a powerful shift that's happening now with the conversations that we are happening and people are wanting and especially kids, they want to have these conversations. And so you are welcome to use a discount code FreeToBeBalanced and to get 30% off the curriculum. Annie:  That's so awesome. Thank you so much. Jen:  Yeah! Annie: So excited. We're changing the world. Renae: Yes we are. Annie:  Okay. Well thank you so much for joining us. We have to come. I want you to come back because I know Jen in particular to had a great question about addressing all of these topics with boys and if there's any differences that we need to be mindful of in our approach and our discussion and our topics. And, because you do work with boys and girls, which I think is really great that this, your program is not just for females. So, we'd love to have you back. We'll set up a time and continue this talk. Okay? Renae: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Jen: Thanks Renae. Bye. Annie:  This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.

Emotional eating can be a real challenge in finding balance. Sometimes there is a sense of helplessness to it. In today’s podcast, Josh Hillis shares his emotional eating coaching strategy to help our listeners find new ways to cope with stress that doesn’t always revolve around food. What you’ll hear in this episode: How effective are cravings control strategies when you have emotional eating issues? Is the answer to emotional eating more control? The emotional release effect when you emotionally eat after tight control The role of acceptance in emotional eating Normalizing the existence of uncomfortable emotions. Diffusing uncomfortable emotions - what does that mean? Gaining perspective around the perceived urgency of feelings The role of mindfulness in managing negative emotions Defining emotional or disinhibited eating Learning to let the monsters ride the bus Being in the driver's seat of how you deal with feelings Introducing a waiting period to delay emotional eating The value of taking time to identify feelings Ways to scale and create distance between you and your feelings Three ways to feel comfortable with your feelings without using food Managing expectations of emotional eating - moving past all or nothing Psychological flexibility as a goal, defined. Identifying and being aware of your “monsters” Thought suppression and the health and wellness industry sales tactics Frequency and emotional eating Rules vs Self-Loving Guidelines Tracking progress - things you can track   Resources: Josh’s Blog Fat Loss Happens On Monday Everything You Know About Emotional Eating is Wrong - blog post Annie quotes Mothers, Daughters and Body Image - Hillary McBride’s book Getting Older: Hillary Mcbride On Women And Aging Episode 13: How Your Body Image Impacts Your Children With Hillary Mcbride Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we have coached thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio. I am so excited for today's guest because today's incredibly smart and talented guest goes way back with Balance365, so far back in fact that he knew Lauren, Jen and I before we were even a business. Josh Hillis has been a longtime friend and mentor to the three of us and I'm so excited for you to hear his wisdom on today's episode. Josh helps people beat emotional eating using a skill-based not diet-based approach that allows people to create a new relationship with their bodies and food and get results that have previously never been possible. Josh is the author of Fat Loss Happens on Monday and the upcoming lean and strong and yet untitled emotional eating book coming out in 2020. Josh has been writing for his blog losestubbornfat.com since 2004 and he currently attends MSU Denver and is doing his thesis on contextual behavioral science and emotional eating. He's the perfect guest for this topic. The current standard answer to emotional eating and the health and fitness industry encourages individuals to just have more control, more control over their diet, over their thoughts, over their emotions, more control over your cravings. But on today's episode, Josh shares why that advice usually doesn't work. For those who struggle with emotional eating and provides multiple practical tools to help you overcome it, I think you're going to love it and joy. Annie: Josh, welcome to Balance365 Life Radio. We're so happy to have you. You go way back with our team like way, way back. How are you? Josh: I'm good. How are you guys? It's so cool to see you guys again. Annie: I know, like, we're still, like, we're still together. The last time we were Facetiming was under a little bit different context. We were Healthy Habits Happy Moms then and we were, you've kind of helped us mentor us as far as like habits and skills and philosophies and you're just a really great coach. Just flat out really great. Josh: Thank you. From you guys, that's awesome. Annie: So we're so happy to have you and Jen and Lauren are here too. How are you guys? Jen: Hi- Lauren: Good. Josh goes way back to like before we were even a thing. Jen: We met Josh the same time we met each other. Lauren: Yeah. Josh: Wow. Jen: Years ago. Annie: Yeah. Josh: Oh Wow. That's awesome. That's amazing. Annie: So you're kind of a big deal to us, are we making you uncomfortable yet? Josh: That's awesome. Jen: When our book comes out we're going to have a page for acknowledgements and I was just telling the girls last week, like Josh Hillis is going to be my number one acknowledgement. Josh: Are you serious? Jen: Yeah, just like all your work and your blog, like it's been so insanely helpful to me. And even just watching you in conversation with people, like, as creepy as that sounds, but just how you handle people, how it's just and you're just so objective and, and really what we try to embody at Balance365 as far as there's no right one right way for every single person and just being open to tools and helping people build a, just a more varied toolbox and they currently have for their health and wellness. Jen: And also the other big thing that we come up against is that, because we're all about self acceptance and embracing oneself, we also often get lumped into a segment of this industry that we all know about, which is basically the anti weight loss movement, which is like weight loss is so bad. Why? Like nobody better talk about this. And a lot of dietitians are on that train as well as psychologists. And so it's just, it's like frightening for me at times. And I found myself questioning, you know, cause you go to the, you see these other professionals and you're like, "Oh man, like, she makes a good point, like what's?" And you've question your own values and what, but ultimately we have risen as like, look, we're just, we're just trying to take a messy middle approach. And there is really nothing inherently wrong with weight loss, changing your behaviors. Jen: And I so appreciate that and you, because I see you as a real leader and professional, not just in the health and wellness industry. Well the health and fitness industry I should say, but you are now a part of the psychology industry. Lauren: Say, "Hey, this is okay. Come on" Annie: And you're not a jerk. Like you're not, like you're not out there shaming people and you're like still able to like help them achieve the goals that they have in a really like compassionate, positive way, which is awesome. Jen: Yeah. And you've got a couple of clients I was reading yesterday on your page that you have a couple of clients that have lost over a hundred pounds. That's like, that's a, that's a life changing, values altering like those clients, like you've totally changed their lives. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. Annie: So now are you uncomfortable? Josh: No, this is like the coolest, most thoughtful, most wonderful compliments I could ever get because you guys are acknowledging me for the things that I've worked the hardest at and that mean the most to me, like in the world. So I totally appreciate it. I totally, totally, totally appreciate it. Annie: Yay. Well, we're like, we can just be your ultimate hype women when you're having a bad day. You can give us a call. Okay. Josh: Can you guys introduce me on every podcast? Annie: We can. But peaking of podcasts, we should probably talk about the topic that I, that you actually wanted to talk about because we've been trying to get you on the show for a while and you're a busy guy. So, when I said, are there any topics that you wanted to jam on and you were like emotional eating, like top on your list. So what is it about emotional eating that you love so much? Josh: I think, so a couple of different things, on like the bigger, like zoomed out level, I think it's access to making the kind of difference that I want to make with people. If they can get, what's really neat is if someone really struggles with emotional eating and they can get that under control it tends to spiral out into other areas of their lives and they have like better relationships and do better at work. I mean like it's, it's really like I don't coach any of that stuff and that kind of thing shows up. The other thing that I like about it is I think it's a place where people feel so out of control and they feel like they can't be this kind of person that they want to be and like they're like, they're being driven by this other thing. And so I like it cause I want to put them back in the driver's seat. and then also the framework that I study, which is contextual behavioral science is just really good for that. And so that's- Annie: I think it's great because I, you have, you have an incredible blog. One of the blog posts you shared with me, you noted that the typical response in the fitness industry to emotional eating is like control, like just control more things and then like, you'll be fine. And,in order to control emotional eating, individuals just they need to control their diet, then control their thoughts, their emotions, their cravings, and you think that that's pretty much crap. Josh: Yeah. Annie: So tell us why, why do you think it's crap? Tell us more. I mean, we agree. Josh: Yeah. So, one thing I just want to preface this with, because it's the most surprising cause I do think it's totally crap and I've gone that way for a while, but I was really surprised this year that I found some studies where they separated out people that had a high degree of emotional eating and cravings, eating and external eating, which is like, you see food and you want it versus people that scored really low on that. And for the people that scored really low on that control was actually fine. Control actually totally worked just just fine. But that's not the clients that I get, you know, they don't hear me. So, the flip side is that control, if you do have issues with cravings or emotional eating, tired eating or and you're procrastinating or any of those things, then control will have an opposite effect. If it works, it always rebounds and the rebound is always, pretty un-fun. Like people really feel like a really, really bad loss of loss of control and they feel kind of gross and they don't feel good about themselves. Jen: So it's sort of that the more tightly wound you are, the faster, harder you'll spin out. And applied to eating, I think people get that release, like they're so tightly wound around food trying to control everything then getting out of control, they just, I mean in the moment it's like a release, right? Josh: Yeah. So you bring up these two really big points. Oh man, it's so cool. So on one hand you've got this like rule based way of living and the problem with having a totally rule based way of living is you break the rule and you're like, I'm off. I'm like explode. Like do it all because this is the last time ever. So, there's that huge like explosion release thing there. And then the other side is that, like, food really does work temporarily for numbing emotions. So, those two things kind of spiral together where people, like, break the rule and they're like, "Oh no, I'm, I'm off my diet and I'm going to go into all the things." And then they start to feel guilty about it. And then they actually are eating to numb the guilty feelings they have about breaking the rules. It's like- Jen: layer one and layer two. Lauren: Wow. The plot thickens. Josh: Totally. Annie: So I understand if you have emotional eating issues or cravings control strategies backfire, like they aren't helpful. What does work? Josh: Great question. So, it kind of all fits in the world of like acceptance based strategies and I get, I like, I have some clients to kind of freak out when I say, like, "acceptance", you know, cause they're like, "I don't want to accept." But that's just kind of like a family of strategies. And what kind of falls inside of that is, the first thing is actually normalizing. It's just recognizing every single time that you have uncomfortable thoughts and uncomfortable emotions, that it's normal to have uncomfortable thoughts, uncomfortable emotions and, like, the foundation is people, like, believe that that's not okay. You know, cause they've heard so much about, like, positive thinking or controlling their thoughts or all of these things or they were, maybe it wasn't cool growing up for them to have emotions or whatever. Josh: But for whatever reason, they think they're supposed to be a shiny, happy person. And just recognizing it's normal to feel sad sometimes. And the number of coaching calls I get on where something really bad happens to someone and I have to say like, "It's okay. It's okay to feel to feel bad. It's okay to feel sad. It's okay. It's okay to have all these feelings." So recognize that it's okay and normal and healthy. Sometimes we can even pair with, well, that's jumping to the next thing. So the next thing is getting a little bit of distance from uncomfortable thoughts and emotions, in act and acceptance commitment training they call it diffusion or fusion. So if you're fused with your thoughts, you feel like they're coming from you, you feel like they're true or true or false, and you feel like there are a command, you feel like there like something that like urgently needs to be fixed. Josh: Diffusion is getting enough enough distance from your thoughts. You can see that like these thoughts might have come from my parents or the media or magazines or whatever. But like, my automatic thoughts aren't me. Right. They aren't true or not true. They're just thoughts. They aren't an urgent problem that needs to be fixed, right? It's normal to have these thoughts and feeling and so diffusion is a matter of, if people have done any kind of like meditation or mindfulness and like, noticing your thoughts and like not so that's where people get caught up. A lot of people have done, I've tried to meditate or do mindfulness in such a way that they were trying to change their thoughts and not have thoughts. So, it's not that, but it's like being able to notice like, "Oh, here are these thoughts and these emotions." Josh: And it could be as simple as saying, "I notice I'm having the thought that blank" versus just treating the thought like it's true. Or probably a little later we'll get to, there's a metaphor for all this called, let the monsters ride the bus and it will kind of pull this together, but, basically get it, get enough distance from those thoughts that you can be with them and that they're not driving and then the third thing is you've got to drive. Like you're the bus driver, but like you can have these thoughts and still take actions that fit your values in your life. And then the last thing is that requires having actually, like, clarified your values. Jen: Right? Right. Annie: This is like my therapy. This is what I discuss with my therapist. Josh: Do you have an acts therapist? Annie: I don't know. But there's, it does feel very similar into that, like just acknowledging like, these are my thoughts. These are my emotions. What is this? Where did this come from? I don't have to act on them. I can just acknowledge them and, and then sitting with them, not like trying to numb them, not trying to run away from them or like avoid them. Yeah. Lauren: I've realized recently that my, I'm very prone to, what did you say? Fusion? Josh: Yeah. Lauren: Where I'm like, this is my thought and I have to fix it right now. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jen: We know that about you. Annie: We could've told you that, Lauren. Jen: She's doing that thing again. Lauren: Well, I recently found this about myself. Jen: This is like my inner Spock. Like when my inner Spock is like, "Halt." You know what I mean? When we have to, "Let's analyze this." Yeah. Annie: So, okay, so Josh, what does this, what does this look like? So people have stress, they have an emotion. They have like, I mean, it could be emotional eating, it can be a wide continuum of emotions. It could be happy. It could be- Jen: We didn't define emotional eating either at the beginning. Annie: Yeah. Do you have a definition, Josh, that you, or a way to define emotional eating? Josh: So most of what I'm looking at is disinhibited eating. So that's, like, a feeling of loss of control with food related to strong emotions, good or bad? Good, good or bad. Wanted or unwanted would probably be more accurate, external, like, seeing things and cravings and so it'd be eating in response to any of those things. With my clients I also lump in, to me it's all the same thing. I also lump in procrastination eating, tiredness eating. Those are the other two. Yeah. Annie: Tiredness eating being that you eat when you're tired. Josh: Yeah. Annie: That's me. Annie: I do that I think. Yeah. Okay, so you experience these emotions, any of them. And then you have a behavior around food. Is that- Josh: Yeah. Annie: Any behavior or it could be a wider range of behaviors? Josh: Oh, it's typically like feeling some degree of loss of control. Like you're not, you don't feel like you're choosing to eat the Brownie, like, I woke up and there was brownies everywhere. Jen: It would be different than happy eating cause we had someone in Balance365. I feel like her emotional eating was out of control. She ate when she was sad, but she also ate when she was happy. But it's more of a loss of control aspect to it. Not a, "Oh, I'm so happy. Let's grab a cake. Celebrate." It's right. Josh: Yeah. It's not, "Let's have a bottle of wine at on date night." It's not, "It's my grandma's hundredth birthday. I'm going to have a chocolate cake." It's not that at all. Should I get into stuff like what, what we do about it? Annie: Yeah. Go for it. Jen: If you want to. Josh: So the simplest thing to do is to put in a waiting period. Right. Could be waiting. 10 minutes, could be waiting a minute. Does it matter? All we're trying to do is they've got this really, really ingrained pattern of have an emotion, eat and if we can separate that, we're good. So that means, like, if I've got clients with pretty legit emotional eating problems, we'll start off with, they have an emotion. They wait 10 minutes, they eat the thing anyway, almost every time. That's fine. We can totally start there. Jen: Progress being the waiting period. Josh: Yeah. Yeah. So, the progress is it's not automatic, they might have to like struggle with it for that 10 minutes or they might have to think about it for that 10 minutes, but at some point, but they've got enough time, they get to choose in that case where they're having it all the time, they don't, they don't have a lot of choice. But it's at least we're breaking that pattern where it's automatic, where they might not even know what they're feeling. They might not even know what they're thinking. Which is actually really common, which is really, which is why, another really, so things you can put in that 10 minutes, you can put it in like looking at a feelings wheel and being able to just like pick out this is what I'm feeling, which actually creates some diffusion that creates some separation. And there's something really magical about people being able to figure out like going from, "I feel bad" to "Oh, I'm sad. I'm sad because this the, you know, my boss yelled at me and that sucks." Right? Maybe it's normal to feel sad when my boss yells at me or whatever. Jen: I do this with my kids like they, but Brene Brown talks about how she has some research that shows, she's done research on college age students and they can only, they only identify three emotions and that's like- Josh: Really? which ones? Jen: Happy, mad and sad. And so she talks about how, you know, in order to be in touch with our emotions, we need to be able to identify emotions and we just aren't taught how to identify. I do this with my kids and we, like, talk about all these different range of emotions outside of mad, sad and happy because you can feel so many different things. But it's so interesting for you to talk about this because I also see so much child psychology stuff that actually applies to two grown ass adults as well. Like we need, you know what I mean, because we weren't taught in childhood. So it, yeah. So it needs to be brought in. Josh: All of the emotion regulation stuff for kids I use with adults. It's awesome. Annie: There's Josh Hillis' coaching secret. Kid psychology. Jen: Go grab your feelings wheel. Annie: Where are you on the spectrum? Jen: Next time Lauren has a meltdown I'm going to say "Go grab your feelings wheel." Annie: All of our slack community, our corporate communication is now going to be, "I feel because" statements, so Josh, you, so you create some distance, you identify some feelings or what your feelings, you get really clear on what that is and then you can eat the thing if you want to still, right? Josh: Yeah. And so they're sort of like these, like, kind of guideline-y things, like waiting 10 minutes. Another like guideline-y thing that I'll start off with, like, either don't do it, do whatever you want. If someone is eating the thing every time then we'll add in like a 50% guideline where 50% of the time they'll eat the thing and 50% of the time they'll find something else. And again, that's just sort of like some training wheels to have to like think about it and choose and be like, you know what, I ate the thing three days in a row. Maybe today I should try going for a walk. Jen: Right, right. Annie: And the point is to really just disrupt the autopilot, right? Josh: Yeah, yeah. Jen: Yes. Right. And also sounds like scaling a little bit. Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jen: Rather than, again, what we see big, big, big problem is people try to go from zero to 60 and it never works. It never works. And Lauren had a really good idea for bridging the emotional eating gap. She said if eating a piece of cake is your coping mechanism, try pair it with a bath, go eat your cake in the bath, and then eventually your association can be more, can become about the bath and then remove the cake and then have it be about the bath, right? It's about scaling that towards a healthier coping mechanism. Josh: That's awesome. Jen: Yes. Go Lauren. Annie: Are there, Josh, do you have any other ways to create distance or to even just feel comfortable feeling your feelings without food? Josh: Yeah. So there's always going to be three different things that you can do, three different effective things. One is you can create distance and just sit with it. Like, just accept this is normal. Right? And a lot of times that's really cool. If you're in a situation where you can't do something else, right, Like maybe you're at work and you've got to keep working, and so what you do is you notice those feelings and you come back to being present with your work or your family or whatever's going on around you. Like, you actually get present with that. The other thing would be to have a menu of different self care things that you can do. And so you notice you have those feelings and then you take a walk or do some deep breathing or take a bath or read a book or whatever. At this point I think I've got a list of like 70 different things in like 15 categories. Jen: I want to just say one thing for the moms who listen and the dads, when I find myself emotionally eating, my kids are often a trigger and alternative forms of self care are not available to me. Right? Like I can't go take, I can't check out of parenting and go take a bath or even go meditate or whatever. And so sometimes I'm just freaking eat a bowl of chips. One thing I would say is that I've scaled it from diving headfirst into a bag of chips to like getting out a little bowl and putting some chips in there and then just eating them and going, "Yeah." So I would say like, I mean my emotional eating skills are not, but they have greatly improved over the years. Josh: Well look at that. So there's a couple of great things about what you just said, right. Number one, parenting is a great context for, like, being able to just, like, accept it and be there. Also, you, you did look at, like, separating out the chips and, like, having a certain amount versus just, like, grabbing from the bag, which works for all kinds of treats all across the board. And then the third thing that that brings up is, it's actually, and this is another thing that's such an important thing. It's normal to eat to chill out your emotions sometimes. Jen: I totally agree. I don't think the goal is like 0% emotional eating. It's like, really, how often are you doing it and how, what is the loss of control there, right? Rather than- Josh: Yeah. Jen: Like emotional eating isn't all bad and it's like, really? Is it? Josh: Yeah. Jen: A couple of chips when my kids are losing it? Is that so bad. Annie: Is it problematic for you? Josh: Oh, and it's one those things where like, like the goal is psychological flexibility. So psychological flexibility is the ability to make different choices. Right. It's just an ability to make different choices. Jen: Right. Right. Josh: Like, never emotionally eating is rigid. Jen: Totally. Josh: Always having to, like, where most of my clients had is they've got like a rule, they don't, they don't say it as a rule, but like they've got a rule that if they have emotions they eat, totally rigid. Jen: Right. Josh: If we can get in the middle we're rocking. Jen: Totally. Yes. Annie: That sounds so familiar, Jen. Jen: The messy middle, yes. That's where we like to hang. Josh: I loved that so much. That is like the best phrase in the world. Jen: Brene Brown, I've brought her up a few times now. You can see I really like her. Josh: I like her too. Annie: But- Jen: Yeah, she talks about being in the messy middle, but when you're in the messy middle you get arrows from both sides, which we have also experienced as well. Being in the messy middle between hardcore health and fitness and hardcore body positive anti weight loss. Hanging out in the middle is can be quite lonely and you can get arrows from both sides. But- Josh: I get that. Annie: Okay. So say you're finding yourself, like, face deep in, like, cake or chips or whatever it is and you're, like, you have this, like, moment of, like, "Whoa, what am I doing?" Josh: Yeah. Annie: Like you're like in this middle, like an emotional eating extravaganza. Josh: Yeah. Annie: What do you do? Do the same thing, like, create some distance still or are there different rules? Josh: Oh no, that's, you nailed it already. It's the exact same rules. So, you notice you're in the middle, you separate yourself from it geographically. You give yourself some time to think about it. You do some sort of diffusion exercise. Whether that's, well, where I talked about, like, a feelings wheel, but also I've got some clients that will journal, they'll write out everything that they're feeling and just writing it out gives them a lot of distance. The biggest thing my clients use actually a metaphor called "let the monsters ride the bus" so we might as well dive into that now. So, it's a really, really common act metaphor and the metaphor is, you're a driving a bus and sometimes you get really cool passengers that get on the bus and they're like, "hey, you're great and we love you and high five!" Like that. Josh: And they get on and off when they want. And sometimes they get monsters, they get on the bus, they're like, "Hey, you're ugly and stupid and you always do it wrong" and they get on and off when they want. And your job as the bus driver is to drive the bus and you could always make a left turn towards, like, numbing and controlling, or you can make a right turn towards your valued actions. And what this allows people to do is allows people to realize like, "Hey, I've got these monsters that will get on, will ride along with me and I can still take a right turn towards my values. Even with the monsters on the bus. Like, my job isn't to get rid of the monsters. It's not to not have monsters. It's to let the monsters ride the bus." Josh: And my clients have identified, they almost always have identified, like, what their most common monsters are. And my clients get to a point where they have identified the monsters that they have in the middle of emotional eating. I've got a lot of clients that have a monster that's like, "One more will be fine, one more will be fine, one more will be fine." Or they might have a monster that's like, "You've already ruined it. Might as well go for broke. Let's start again Monday." And so when they have those feelings, again, they don't treat them as true. They don't treat them as, like, them. They're like, "Oh, there's that monster again. And that guy can ride along the bus. And I know that when I'm in, when I catch myself in the middle, my monsters are super loud." Annie: Are you familiar with Pema Chodron's work? She's a Buddhist nun. Josh: No. Annie: This is feels very similar because you have in that blog post, and I think, I think I pulled this quote from your blog posts it said, "The irony is that when people accept cravings as being normal" or I'm assuming these uncomfortable emotions, "they have an increased capacity to tolerate cravings" and that's just very similar to her work. That's like you actually, by just acknowledging the feelings and emotions you suffer less, like, and that's, like, instead of trying to avoid it or like do all these things like this contortionists, like, "I'm going to avoid it in any way possible. I'm going to do all these things so I don't have to feel the thing that I'm trying to avoid feeling." If you just like feel it and like acknowledge it, like, "I see you, monster, you're on the bus, I hear you, but I'm not going to listen or I'm not, you know, whatever." Josh: Yeah. Annie: It's like you can still take action as you notice, what did you, how did you say, that aligns with your values? Josh: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. Even though you hear them, even though they're on the bus- Josh: You nail. Yeah. Yes. The same. And that's a really, really, really big. So, here's the paradox there. You're 1000% right. The paradox is that when you allow the monsters to be there, it is a lot less painful and it's a lot less intense. The paradox is that you don't want to approach it as, "I'm going to allow the monsters" to like force it to be less intense because then it doesn't work. And so that's not actually doing it. But what you're talking about, which is really cool, it's really, really cool, is that there's two kinds of pain. There is normal human pain, which is like the feelings and an uncomfortable thoughts that we all have. And then there's like the added pain that comes from trying to, like, control and fore and not, you know, and so, you do get to avoid all of the added pain and you're not the first person to be, like, you know, there's this Buddhist that kind of sounds a lot like these acceptance and commitment training people. Annie: Well I think it's, I think it's, I don't know if it's just the universe, like, I've been doing kind of this emotional work to like make these messages become really clear to me. But it seems like I've been trying to, and I've talked about this on other podcasts, outsource feeling good or feeling great all the time. Like you said, like we get this message that like, "Maybe I shouldn't be feeling these things" or like "Everyone else feels great all the time and they never have bad days" or "They never have self-doubt" or they never have body image issues. And it's like, "That's actually just not the case. Like, just acknowledging that like you get to feel all the things and you still live, we're going to be okay," like that. It's like, that feels really powerful to me. But I like that you say like, I love that analogy of let the monsters ride the bus. I could see that becoming a big phrase in our community. Can't you Jen? Jen: Yeah, I was already picturing it as a hashtag soon. Josh: That's awesome. Jen: The other thing is I think when I was hearing you say, Josh, is because we have this other guests, she's been on twice now. Her name is Hillary McBride. We have to, we're going to call her Doctor Hillary McBride soon cause she's almost done her Phd and she is also psychologist and she works in body image and she has a book called Mothers, Daughters and Body Image. And so she has sort of encouraged the same process as far as thoughts about your body, like kind of stepping outside of it. But, and then I think her version of monsters on the bus is to acknowledge the monsters on the bus. But to say, is this really true? Just that simple question, is this really true? And I just sort of have this vision of being a driver on a bus hearing all the monsters in the back, but being able to say, "Is that true? Like, do I have to do that? Am I, you know, am I helpless to this? Is that true?" And you know, the answer is often, like, "No, it's not actually true." And then you can kind of just, yeah. Keep doing what you were doing. Josh: Yeah. Jen: Yeah. Josh: Just to, like, it's, like, notice. Jen: Yeah, just notice. Yeah. Josh: Like it's, it doesn't, yeah. Cause we, it is so normal for us to treat it like it's true. Like it's, like, it's so true. Jen: Right. It feels true. Right? Josh: That's awesome. Annie: Okay. So Josh, we discussed, being aware, creating distance, normalizing the experiencing of different emotions. Is there anything else that comes to mind when I'm addressing emotional eating? And again, I do want to recap that this is like as you, as you said at the beginning, that those are tools that work for people that have emotional eating issues. If you don't have emotional eating issues then, like- Josh: You probably don't have to- Annie: Then it doesn't apply. Or what was the difference that you said? That thought control or thought suppression would work for people that,- Josh: yeah. So, here's where it gets really funny. Cause I got really spun whenever the research that thought suppression worked for cravings and emotional eating for people that don't have cravings and emotional eating issues. And but, like, at first I was like, "thought suppression is always bad. Like how does that work?" And so I actually talked to my friend, Amy Evans, who's this brilliant behavioral analyst and she's like, "Well, of course not because the function is different, right? So if the function of that controllers is trying to like push away these uncomfortable emotions and cravings, then it's like an avoidance strategy. But if you don't have issues with those, then it's actually kind of like, maybe it's just like conscientiousness, right? Like it's a totally different thing." And I'm like, "Oh!" So it's good to have genius friends. Jen: Right? So can you give us an example in context? So person A doesn't have ongoing emotional eating issues, so we're talking about, but then something, a craving pops up or, or they're feeling emotional and they're feeling some kind of urge to eat if they don't struggle with ongoing emotional eating issues, then suppression works. Josh: Apparently. Yeah. I mean I don't coach that, but in the, in the research, yeah. Jen: So what would suppression look like for them? Josh: Yes. So, I'm guessing if they didn't score very highly than it's just a simple guideline that they're just like, "Oh, I don't, I don't eat between meals." I don't eat from the, you know, which is, which is totally fine. Jen: Right? Yeah. We call these self-loving guidelines in Balance365. They're not rules. They're flexible guidelines that keep you in a place of self care kind of thing. Josh: Yeah. So like- Annie: Oh, sorry, go ahead, Josh. Josh: I was just going to say if someone doesn't score really high on cravings and they have a little craving, it's pretty easy for them to go like, "Oh, I'm not going to do that." Jen: Right. Josh: "If someone scores really high on cravings- Jen: Then it's a bigger deal to say, "No, I'm not doing that." Yeah. Okay. Annie: I think it's important to note though, as you noted, as we noted in the beginning of the podcast is that that can work for some people, but right now the majority of the health and fitness industry are selling thought suppression. Josh: Yeah. Annie: To everyone. Like, that is, like, the widely accepted common answer versus, "Hey, like, maybe this is normal." Jen: They're also selling emotional eating at any point as as unacceptable. And so, you know, a person who is has an emotional eating episode one day, that's, you know, we're trying to say in this podcast that that's not wrong. And really, if you don't struggle with emotional eating, whether you do or don't engage in emotional eating is not a make or break for anyone's life. Right. It's not, whether you choose the chips or don't, it's just not really an issue. Like it's really a small, tiny little rock that really, you know what I mean? Like we're talking about, there's people that have real loss of control that going on, you know, sometimes daily for them around emotional eating. So, and it comes down to the frequency. How often are you engaging in these behaviors and ultimately what does that end up? What does that look like for you? After three months, 12 months, three years, 20 years, right? Josh: Frequency's everything. Jen: Right. Annie: Josh, you're so much fun to have on our podcast. Do you have more? Josh: Can I throw one other thing out there? The other thing that, the biggest misconception that I've gotten when I've talked to people about this and I've got it so much that I want to make sure not to miss it. This is still a behavioral approach, right? Like they're like, "Oh, you're like deal with your thoughts and like that" but you still, like, you still have to clarify your values and attach behaviors to that. But it's like, so self love guidelines was that? Jen: Self loving guidelines. Josh: Self loving guidelines, or like kind of like more, more intuitive skills or like, all these different things. The whole point of all this is to be able to do those things more frequently. Jen: Right? Josh: Right. So, all of my clients, I shouldn't say all of my clients. The majority of my clients track behaviors, right? So they track how often they have like a mostly balanced meal or how often they have vegetables or how often they, you know, snacked between meals or how often they noticed their hunger before they ate or how, you know, like how often they were full and stopped and like, they track actual behaviors and things that we can count the real world. Monsters on the bus is another thing that they track and count how often they use it. They also track if they didn't need it, like, "Oh, I didn't need it today," but- Jen: Oh interesting. Josh: If they're like, "Oh, I didn't need it and I used it" or "I didn't need it and I didn't use it." Those would be different things and it seems really weird maybe to use like a metaphor as a behavior to track, but it works really well. Jen: So ultimately you're tracking, the behavior change that you have people track is not necessarily emotional eating episodes, but how they dealt with those, whether they dealt with it in a manner that is more healthy than bingeing. Josh: Yeah. Jen: Right. Okay. Josh: Yeah. And so that could look really differently for a lot of different people, but it's like how often did you use this metaphor? How often would you use a diffusion technique? How often did you use your menu of things you can do? Jen: Right, right, right. Annie: Great. So, so you're putting behaviors with it. That's great. Josh: That's what grounds it in the real world. Annie: Yeah. Josh: Otherwise it goes way. Jen: Josh had a thread on his page, several months ago where you said, "sometimes I think" as far as your weight loss clients, you said "If we changed nothing at all except working on stress reduction methods, people would lose weight without changing anything at all." And then I had mentioned or just sleep, like, just a sleep habit, which is, you know, kind of goes hand in hand with stress- Josh: So good. Jen: Isn't it? So it just sort of like, yeah. So imagine if people just, so what we find is people hyperfocus on food, like they just are hyper focused on it and if you zoom out and you get back, if you just laid your foundations for say stress reduction, better sleep hygiene, anything you identify that helps your wellness wheel go, the food just doesn't matter. People will kind of eat until they're satisfied. Do you know what I mean? Like it's often these, the overeating tendencies we have are often a result of these high stress, sleep deprived, poor coping mechanism, lifestyles that we're living, the rest of the overeating issue. You don't have to be so hyper focused on the food or crank the wheel to the right and jump on the Keto wagon or cause you're really never getting to the underlying issues of why you're overeating in the first place. Right? Josh: Yeah. With my most successful clients, all these things we're doing show up as self care. Jen: Right. Totally. Josh: And it's like, and then the people that struggle are the ones that keep trying to do it as punishment. Jen: The food, the food. Yeah, totally. Josh: And the thing about sleep is no one makes phenomenally great food decisions when they're exhausted. Jen: Nobody. That's right. Yeah. Josh: I will throw out there in case there's any people that work like swing shifts or anything like that out there. For a while I had a ton of clients that were nurses that worked overnight and so for them, a lot of it was just acceptance of every time their schedule shifted they were going to be like unusually hungry. And so that is workable. But for everyone else, if we can just turn off screens like an hour earlier, like, man, this all gets easier. Jen: Totally. We just interviewed a sleep doctor before we interviewed you. Josh: Oh really? Annie: Yeah. He said the same thing. Jen: Same thing. Our podcast is the best. Josh: Your podcast is the best. This was so much fun. Annie: Are you always this energetic? I mean, every time, I've talked to you twice in five years, like you always have such great energy about you- Jen: And smiling. You're always smiling. Josh: You're super great. It's fun hanging out with you guys. Annie: You are welcome back here anytime. Josh: Also, this is, like, my favorite stuff to talk about. Annie: So yeah, you are, you're welcome back here. Anytime. Anything, any projects you're working on that you want to tell us about or where can we, where can our listeners find you or keep up with your work? Jen: You're working on a million books. Josh: I am working on a million books, so, losestomachfat.com is still my blog. I still do celebrity workout stuff and emotionally eating research, which is now a weird combination. I've got two books coming out. Lean Is Strong is coming out at the end of this year. And then the untitled emotional eating book is coming out next year. And that's my big stuff right now. It's top secret. Annie: Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Alright, well thank you so much, Josh. Josh: Thank you. Annie: We will talk soon, hopefully. Josh: Okay, cool. Thanks guys. Annie: Thanks. This episode is brought to you by the Balance365 program. If you're ready to say goodbye to quick fixes and false promises and yes to building healthy habits and a life you're 100% in love with, then checkout Balance365.co to learn more.

Native New Yorker Gloria Bardin lives in a one-bedroom apartment with three Dobermans, one pitbull, a Havanese, two mixed breeds and three cats. And yet... she seems totally sane. Annie talked to her about how she has built a life that can accommodate taking care of so many pets. Notes: Follow Gloria on Instagram: @fourtypawsvstwofeet Follow Beppi on Instagram: @bep.and.zo Garfield Mail: https://gizmodo.com/the-original-gmail-was-garfield-mail-1822970617 --- Partial Transcript: [Intro] Annie: I am here with Gloria Bardin who is an East Village native. I first met her when she came to our Puppy Playtime with two of her dogs, but the reason I was interested in having her on the podcast is not because she has two dogs, not because she has three dogs or four dogs. She has seven dogs in her East Village apartment and four cats. Did I get that right, Gloria? Three cats, and any other animals we should know about now? Gloria Bardin: No, I just have the seven dogs and the three cats only. Only those, just those, just those. Annie: No turtles or gerbils, or hamsters? Gloria: No, I had a Guinea pig, but my mom has it now. She really likes it. I do foster occasionally though. Annie: Oh my goodness Gloria: So I actually just had two puppies in my house that I just got adopted this weekend. Annie: So for a little while there you had nine dogs and three cats? Gloria: Yeah. Full Transcript available at: SchoolfortheDogs.com/Podcasts/

In today’s episode, Annie and Lauren guide us through five easy ways to simplify a fitness routine. So often we overcomplicate things and that leads to no workouts at all. It doesn’t have to be that way! With these practical tips you can make working out a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable. What you’ll hear in this episode: How we overthink food and exercise Does a workout need to be sweaty and exhausting to be effective? How to get started if you aren’t moving at all NEAT - what is it and why does it matter? Muscle confusion - is it real? The value of doing the same workouts repeatedly Finding the sweet spot between consistency and boredom Why you should focus on large muscle groups Do you really need equipment? Why bodyweight workouts are great “What do I wear?” and other barriers that are easier to overcome than you think Overcoming perfectionism and managing our own expectations How to build a backup plan The value of small, sustainable consistency over the long term   Resources: Balance365Life on Instagram Cosmic Kids Yoga Workout Wednesday where you don’t have to get off the floor https://www.instagram.com/p/BrAu5OLHcQj/ ) Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, a podcast that delivers the honest conversations about food, fitness, weight, and wellness. I'm your host Annie Brees along with Jennifer Campbell and Lauren Koski. We are personal trainers, nutritionists and founders of Balance365. Together we coach thousands of women each day and are on a mission to help them feel healthy, happy, and confident in their bodies on their own terms. Join us here every week as we discuss hot topics pertaining to our physical, mental, and emotional wellbeing with amazing guests. Enjoy. Hey, hey, thanks for listening to another episode of Balance365 Life Radio. Today's episode is all about how to simplify your fitness routine. So often we see women with the best of intentions overthinking exercise, and it ultimately prohibits them from taking consistent action or any action altogether. If that's you, this episode is a must listen. Lauren and I give you five ways to pare down your approach to fitness so you can get in some exercise and get on with your day. By the way, on this episode, Lauren and I talk a lot about our workouts we share on Instagram every Wednesday. If you're not already, be sure to follow us on Balance365Life on Instagram so you can snag a new free workout every Wednesday. Enjoy. Lauren, welcome to the show. How are you? Lauren: I am good. How are you? Annie: Good. What are you up to today? Lauren: Just getting back into, like, work week because last week I think your kids were all out of school and my kids were all out of school and I was so happy to drop them off this morning. I feel like real life again. Annie: Agreed. The snow days. They are a fun surprise once in a while to like, "Hey, let's, like, go do some snow stuff" or- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like just chill in our PJ's all day. But I was ready to get back to the routine. Lauren: Yeah, we were off for a week and a half, so it was like almost another, like, Christmas break. It was like, "Ah!" Annie: Yes. Which ,when you're not planning for it and you're still trying to get all your work things done, it's like, it can be a little bit stressful. Lauren:  Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So what did you do last night, by the way? You posted on Instagram a fancy photo. Lauren: Oh, we went to go see the Phantom of the Opera. Annie: That's fun. Lauren: In Detroit. Yeah, it was fun. It was the first time I'd ever seen it live. Annie: So you skipped the Super Bowl. Lauren: Yeah. Well when we bought the tickets we didn't know what was the Super Bowl. So it wasn't, like, an on purpose thing, but we still went cause we spent a lot of money on the tickets. Annie: Is James a football fan? Was he? Lauren: Not really, I mean he'll watch it but he's not like a big fan. So- Annie: I didn't even realize until the third quarter that the Rams are now in LA, not St. Louis. Lauren: Oh, I don't even know who the Rams are. Annie: Well, they used to be the Saint Louis Rams and then it was like the LA Rams and I'm like, "I thought the Rams were in Saint Louis." Lauren: So you can just move? Annie: I guess. I dunno, I'm not into pro football. Lauren: I'm in Detroit and the Detroit Lions aren't so great anymore. I guess they used to be. But they haven't been in a long time. So, yeah. Annie: Well, I'm in Des Moines and we don't have a pro football team. So college football is much, much more popular here. Lauren: Yeah, we have good college football too. Annie: So you and I are talking about fitness today, simplifying your fitness routine. And this topic kind of came to us because I think the three of us were discussing essentially how women overthink it. Everything- Lauren: Everything. Annie: Like nutrition and fitness. But we're going to start tackling fitness. But women overthink it and it's like they get so caught up in these small rocks and the small details that they almost become paralyzed and they, like, just don't do anything at all. And it's part mindset and part just like basic information on how exercise can look and can work in your life. Because I know, I mean, it's easy for me to say as a personal trainer, I find myself in the gym just naturally with clients or coaching class or whatever. But I realize that not everyone has a love for fitness or a passion for fitness like I do, which is why it's great to have you on the podcast, not to throw you under the bus, but you owned that, like, fitness is not like something that you just love to do. Lauren: It's the first thing that goes for me when I get in a busy season or stressed out and I'm sorry about my voice, I'm just getting over a cold. But yeah, it's the first thing that like gets chopped off for me. Annie: Yeah. Which I think is really common for a lot of people. Like it feels like, kind of almost like a luxury to some people, that if they have the time they'll do it. But oftentimes it's kind of a catch 22. Like you aren't going to have the time unless you make the time and- Lauren: Right. And like, I'll get in the habit and it'll be good. But it takes the longest for me, it seems like to get into that habit and then it's the first one that's the easiest that drops off. So I'm just kind of constantly going back and forth. In and out, which at this point with, you know, two little kids, I'm okay with that. Annie: It's good enough. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. So today we just want to give you five ways to simplify your fitness routine and some of its mindset related, some of it's actual practical advice. But I want to preface this by saying that all movement counts, and this can be a really huge mindset shift for a lot of people in our communities. We've seen this. It's, what we hear commonly is, "Walking doesn't count," or "I didn't break a sweat so it's not enough or it wasn't, I didn't, I wasn't sore the next day, so it must not have been effective." And so often people think that they have to be drenched and exhausted and sweaty and on the verge of throwing up for a workout to be effective or for, to exercise to get any benefit out of exercise. And that's just not true. Right? Lauren: Right? Yeah. And I'll also add too, like if you're in a really stressful season of your life, like if you're newly postpartum or just, you're in a really stressful period, something like walking is actually going to be, can be more beneficial than stressing your body out more with an intense workout. Right? Annie: Absolutely. Yeah, they're smart, smart choices. And smart choices don't always feel the most physically taxing, you know, but they're still good choices. Okay, so let's, let's dive into it. The first suggestion to help simplify your fitness routine is simply to level up. And what we mean by that is you don't have to go from zero to 60 overnight. If you're not currently moving at all, even just five minutes is a step in the right direction. But what we see so often as people are like, "Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to start exercising and I'm going to do this thing" and Sunday night they like write up, this used to be me, so I'm speaking from my own personal experience. I'd write out like all these workouts, I'd write out seven days of workouts and it would have this like cardio element, strength element. And then I do a little stretching and I mean honestly I'd probably pair this with all of my food changes too and I'd have this little journal and look really, really great on paper and I might be able to do it for a couple days. But then it's like, "Oh my gosh, like, this is just too much. I can't stick with it." Or I was really motivated at the start of the week on Monday, but now it's Thursday and I don't want to get up early anymore and I'm tired and my body's sore and I can't sustain it. So I would just quit. And that's, we see that kind of pendulum shift. Like they pull this, you know, if you can imagine one of those pendulums, you pull that ball back all the way to one side and that's you doing nothing. And then people ramp it up and they let it go and they do all the things and then they just swing from nothing to all of it, nothing to all of it. And so if you're at a stage where you're not doing anything, doing a little something is a benefit. If you find yourself maybe a little bit more moderate exercise and you want to get some more benefit than you can level up, you can increase the intensity or the duration or try a new activity. But the idea isn't that you have to jump from, like make big leaps. You can just make small steps to level up your fitness routine as you see fit. Lauren: For sure. One of my favorite places for people to start that I like to suggest is if you're someone who's doing nothing right now, I like to suggest starting with something that takes no extra time, right? So, like, Simply parking in the furthest parking spot when you're going shopping or when you're at work and taking the stairs instead of the elevator and just adding those little extra movements throughout your day, they can make a big difference if you do them every time. Annie: Absolutely. This is, what you're describing is, I know you know this, just for our listeners that may not be familiar with this term, it's called NEAT. It's a non-exercise activity thermogenesis. And this is something we actually cover inside our Balance365 program because, and we can put this infographic in our show notes for you, but it's a little bit harder to describe visually over an audio podcast. But essentially if you saw the, how NEAT contributes to energy expenditure or calories burned it, it accounts for more than an actual workout more often than not. So in other words, all the daily movement that you do throughout the day, the chores, the chasing after kids, the picking up kids, hauling groceries, running up and down stairs, mopping the floors, doing the dishes, all of that that you do, actually all that movement that you do actually accounts for more energy expenditure than an hour in the gym more often than not. And, but so often people are like, "Ugh, you want me to walk around the playground while my kids are playing or swinging?" It's like, "That's not, like, that's not worth it." And actually it really is. It all adds up. Okay. Number two, this is one of my favorite ways to simplify your fitness routine and it's to repeat the same workout over and over again and changing up your workout every week or every day can require a crap ton of mental energy, especially if you're the one that's like dictating how you should change it up, which is what I was describing just a little bit ago. You know, every Sunday night I would scour Shape magazine and a Muscle and Fitness Her and Health magazine and like piece together these workouts and I'd be like, "Okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna do this workout and then I'm going to do this yoga workout and then I'm going to do this Youtube workout and then I'm going to write my own strength leg workout or whatever."And I would have something different every single day. And that can require just a lot of effort. And additionally, I know a lot of people have heard the idea of muscle confusion, right? Have you heard that? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: You've heard of it? Yeah. It's been kind of used as a marketing tactic, as a "pro" to, like, workouts that do constantly vary their workouts. Right? And I don't need to name any names, but I think you can think of what talking about and you might have heard comments like you need to keep your muscles guessing or you need to keep your muscles confused. And that doing so increases the gains, right? Like you'll get stronger, you'll get fitter, you'll get leaner faster if you keep your muscles guessing. But it's pretty much garbage. And in fact, in my personal and professional experience, the reason people don't get the gains thereafter is because they don't stick with anything long enough to actually get them.   And science backs this debunking of the muscle confusion philosophy too because our bodies, specifically our muscles, respond to a philosophy or principle called progressive overload, which means that you train a specific muscle group or a movement pattern, progressively adding intensity or duration over a long period of time and so hard days are followed by easier days or longer periods of intensity or followed by longer periods of rest and recovery. But either way, to get better at something, repetition and consistency are key. So you don't have to expend a bunch of mental energy or even physical energy thinking, "I'm going to use kettlebells and then I'm going to do cardio and then I'm going to do strength and then I'm going to do some mobility and then I'm going to do all these things." If you really just want to get stronger, if you want to increase your ability to run, you just need to run, you know, like, run a little bit faster, run a little bit longer, you can vary it that way. Now on the flip side, I know some people are listening to this and they are going to say that repeating the same workout over and over again is boring. Lauren: I would say that. Annie: Yeah, which I totally understand too. And honestly that's one of the reasons I really enjoy Crossfit is because it has a lot of variation to it. They use a lot of different pieces of equipment. They train a lot of different movements. They vary the sets and the reps schemes. And I think it's really important that you find that sweet spot between consistency and boredom. So if you find yourself getting bored and then you're just not doing any workout at all, like, it's okay to switch it up. I'm not saying don't switch it up, I'm just saying it's not necessary to switch it up. Lauren: Right. Like if that's something that's keeping you from doing something because you think you have to find something new to do all the time. Annie: I mean, for me, for example, I trained powerlifting for almost five years. I squat, benched and deadlifted every week for almost five years. And yeah, that was boring. There were some workouts where I was like "Ugh, snooze fest, five sets of eight again or three sets of five again." But guess what? I got really good at squat, benching and deadlifting and, again, this is a, you don't have to, if you want to vary your workout, if that's something you like to do because it's fun for you and you can do it, great. But if you're feeling stuck in the overwhelm of, "Oh my gosh, I have to think of something every day new to do" and that's keeping you from doing any exercise at all, I'm giving you permission to just cut it out. Like, it's not necessary. Lauren: So something really important for me, which is, I think, what you're just talking about is, like, decreasing the mental load of my workout. So for me, it's, like, going to a class where I literally just have to show up and like, I don't have to think, I just go there and show up. Or another thing I've been doing since I haven't been going to classes recently is, just shameless plug for the Wednesday Balance365 workouts that we post on Instagram is I've just been doing those and we have enough now where I can do them, you know, Monday, Wednesday, Friday or whatever, and just cycle through them. And I, again, don't have to think about it. I just open the app, look at the picture and do it. Annie: Right. And I think if you pay attention to those workouts, you'll see that they almost always have some of the basic elements in there. They'll have a squat, a hinge, a core, a pulling variation. Like there's still some basic elements of a well rounded fitness program. Is it going to help you deadlift 315 pounds? No, but that goes back to our first suggestion to level up. If that's a goal of yours, then, then you're probably, you know, at a different space than a Wednesday workout. That can be a great supplement. But the Wednesday workouts are great for people that are like, "I don't know what to do. I just need someone to tell me what to do." And again, that goes back to why like Crossfit, because I train people a lot and I think up their programs really well. Annie: If I left up to my own devices to write my own program, I would be doing the things that I like all the time and not the stuff that I don't like and probably should be doing and need to get better at. And, I don't want to think, like, I'm just, like, "Just tell me what to do and I'll just do it." And so I can just focus on doing the workout, get in, get out and be done. Lauren: Yup. Annie: Okay. Number three, focus on large muscle groups can help you to simplify your fitness routine. And by large muscle groups, I mean compound movements. And what I mean by compound movements is movements that are using utilizing more than one joint at a time. So a lot of times I'll see kind of these, what I call bodybuilding exercises, where they're focusing on just one muscle group, which is great if you're a bodybuilder, but they'll do, you know, three exercises for a bicep or three exercises to work your quads or four exercises to hit your hamstrings from all these different angles. And again, that's great if you're interested in bodybuilding and isolation movements. But if you're short on time and you're looking for the most bang for your buck, you can either do a lot of exercises working one muscle group, or you can do a fewer exercises that recruit more muscle groups, more joints, like squats, deadlifts, pull ups. So again, that's why when you see going back to those Wednesday workouts, when you see those workouts, they're almost always compound movements, right? They're thrusts, it's a squat with an overhead press. It's a burpee. It's a RDL. It's a deadlift variation. It's a Kettlebell swing- Lauren: Walking lunges. Annie: Walking lunges, which is everyone's favorite, right? Everyone's like, "I hate walking lunges, that and burpees." Lauren: I'll take walking lunges over burpees any day. Annie: Maybe we should do both. Lauren: I'll take anything over burpees any day. And supermans or superwomans. I do not like those. Annie: Is that a shoulder thing? Lauren: I don't know. Annie: Oh, I like superwomans. See the reason why superwoman's, just a side note is, in a lot of, excuse me, a lot of our workouts is because I like to have bodyweight workouts for people that don't have access to equipment for whatever reason, but to do pulling exercises to work your posterior chain, to have like a rowing, pulling exercise with no weight, that's difficult to do. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like a lot of times you need weight and superwomen, which, if you're not familiar with that exercise where you lay down on your belly and you lift your arms and your legs, like you're flying like a superwoman, at the same time to work your backside of your body, it can be really beneficial. But- Lauren: I still do it, I just- Annie: You don't like those? Lauren: It's not my favorite. Annie: Oh, interesting. Lauren: Side note. Annie: So maybe the next Wednesday workout should be all of Lauren's least favorite exercises- Lauren: Yeah, burpees, superwomans, what else? I hate inchworms. Annie: Lunges. Oh, those are fun. And kids like them too. Like does Elliot ever workout with you? Lauren: Sometimes she does. She usually just takes my stuff and then goes and plays with it. Over the, I want to say winter break, the snow thing, school closing. I don't know why I can't think of a name for it. We actually started doing Cosmic Kids Yoga and she really likes that. Annie: Oh, that's fun. Lauren: Yeah. It's cute. Annie: I don't know if my kids would be into that or not. We should link that in the show notes. That's a cute, a fun way to get moving with your kiddos. Okay, we digress. Anyways, moving on. So focus on large muscle groups, compound movements. If you need ideas the Wednesday Workouts are a great idea. We also have a YouTube channel. If you're just looking for workouts. Balance365 on YouTube where we have a fair amount of free workout videos, which we take you through, start to finish. They're mostly under 20 minutes. I narrate all of them to give you cues and tips so you can follow along. You can press pause, you can write down the workouts and take them into your garage or your gym and do on your own. If you don't want to follow along with the video. But they're pretty good workouts. Lauren: Yeah, they are really good. I enjoy them. Annie: I mean, I wrote them, so you better agree. Anyways, okay, tip number four to help simplify your fitness routine is to get rid of the gear. You don't need a bunch of fancy equipment. That can be fun and it can make it really exciting and exhilarating, but body workouts are great. Bodyweight workouts are great, excuse me. They can be super effective, super efficient and minimal equipment works well too. I personally can get a heck of a great workout with just one kettlebell. So don't let this idea of "I need all the resistance bands, I need multiple sets of dumbbells. I need sizes of kettlebells. I need a barbell, I need a ball, I need a mat, I need a timer. You don't need all of that stuff to get in a really, really great workout. And in fact, I just did a bodyweight workout on Monday and I was sore. Now I say sore. That's not an effective way of deciding if your workout was great or not, but you can, my point is you can make body workouts challenging or not if you want. And again, I've been lifting for years and years and years and I still do bodyweight workouts, a fair amount or body weight movements, a fair amount. So, I think, I wonder a lot of times if people kind of poopoo bodyweight workouts or workouts with minimal equipment or workouts that don't have a ton of gear or equipment or cardio because they think, "Oh, that's not very hard or that can't be very hard if I'm not using a ton of weight." And I would challenge you to try it because they can be pretty difficult. And even, I'm just throwing this in there, cause I notice a lot of our Balance365ers do this, that even your pj's can double as workout clothes. And again, this is one of the barriers that I see women kind of get hooked up on is "What do I wear?" Or they're trying to wake up early and do a workout and they're like, "Ugh, I have to get dressed, find my clothes, find my sports bra, the right tennis shoes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just too much." And so we've seen a fair amount of women in our community just work out in their pajamas. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Bra, no bra up to you. Whatever you're comfortable in. But especially if you're, like, working out at home, like, who cares? Right? Like workout in what's ever comfortable with you. Your gym might have some guidelines. I know at the first gym I worked at you had to wear a shirt and that sort of stuff, but get up and work out in your pj's or do a workout in your pj's right before bed. Like don't let that be a barrier to working out. Don't, you don't have to overthink like, "Oh, I don't have on the right clothes." And again, we've even seen women walk on the treadmill or take a walk in their work clothes over their lunch hour or in jeans, you know, that works and it counts and it's good enough. Lauren: Yeah, I wear, leggings most pretty much every day. So I just, I literally do home workouts just in my clothes. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Like, you know, it's 15, 20 minutes and I'm done. I don't have to change my whole outfit and change it back. Annie: Yeah, half the time I don't even throw my hair up in a ponytail anymore. I'm like, I'm that girl. I'm that girl, I cringe to say this, but I used to kind of poke fun at girls that worked out with their hair down. I'm like, "How do they do that? Like how, like how, like aren't they hot? Aren't they sweaty? Isn't in their face?" And now I'm that girl. I'm like, "You know what? I have five minutes. I'm going to do a couple of movements as, until I run out of time and that's going to be good enough." I don't even put my hair in a ponytail, like, just go. Just move. Again. It all counts. It all adds up. Lauren: Yup. Annie: Okay. And our last suggestion is kind of what we've been talking about all along is to help you simplify your fitness routine, and this is definitely a big mindset shift. It's become one of our biggest mantras in our community is "All or something." And the all or something approach to fitness is life changing in my opinion. Because again, I think I've already said this, but women and men, but we work with women, women poopoo workouts because they aren't hard enough. They aren't long enough. They don't use enough weight. It doesn't hit all the elements of cardio strength and mobility. And as a result ,we say that's not good enough. So we just don't do anything at all. "It's not a perfect workout, so I'm not going to do it." And how many times have you let not being able to do the perfect workout keep you from doing anything at all? Right? Lauren: A lot of times. Annie: A lot. Lauren: Yes. Before the last few years. All the time. Annie: Yes. Lauren: If I look at my workouts from, especially the last year since I've had Benny, none of them are crazy intense or super long or perfect or the most effective that they could possibly be, but I'm doing something. Annie: Yes. And that's really all it boils down to. Like, you know, we've said this before in other podcasts, but people get so stuck in living in that all or nothing, they're either on the wagon or off the wagon. They're right, wrong. They're good, bad, black, white, that they forget that there's a whole host of options in between there. There's this big gray continuum in the middle of those two extremes. So as for fitness, it's like you're either not doing any exercise at all on a given day or given week or a month, or you're doing all the things. Like those are not your only two options. You can take a 10 minute walk or do three sets of glute bridges. I mean, I even wrote a workout for Workout Wednesday, we can reshare it, where I said, you don't even have to get up off the floor for this one. Lauren: I did that one. Annie: I know, I've been there where you're like, you're playing on the ground with your kids or you're laying on the floor or whatever and you just cannot be bothered. Lauren: There were superwomans in there. Annie: Glute bridges, clamshells, pushups. We can do all the workouts from the floor, but I imagined people just like slithering off their couch, like sliding to the floor. But again, is it, is it perfect? Is it the most intense workout of your life? Is it going to leave you so exhausted or you can be drenched in sweat? Are you going to be extremely sore? Probably not, but it counts. It counts. Lauren: And you know what? The benefits of exercise come when you do them consistently, right? So if you're like "Go hard or go home", well, you go hard for a week and then you go home for the next four months, right? Like that's, that's not really doing anything for you. If you were to take a walk every day for four months, then that would be, you'd be in a much better place. Annie: Right, or say you, I mean even just by the math or by the minutes, you say, "I'm going to do, you go really hard and you do 10 workouts over the course of four weeks," you know, five days a week for two weeks, that's 10 workouts. Or you say "I'm going to do three workouts a week because that's more sustainable for me, that's more enjoyable. I can actually fit that into my life." In the longterm over the course of six months, like we're looking at a lot more workouts and I'm guessing at the end of six months you're going to be a lot stronger. And in fact, before we started recording this, Jen had some audio problems so she couldn't join us today, but she was saying that she's currently getting, getting really strong and she's the strongest she's been in a really long time and Jen's owned that she's had periods of exercising kind of ebb and flowing, but she's been working at it for eight weeks and she joked about how like that's, you know, "I've been working at this for eight weeks now. Like, I should see all the gains, like how it's kind of a short period of time." I think a lot of people in mainstream fitness think eight weeks is a really long time. And in the grand scheme of things over the course of the year, eight weeks is pretty minimal. So you have to be able to think, like, what can I do for the long term? And over the course of eight weeks, 10 minute walks, that adds up a lot over the course of eight months. Like so don't poo poo exercises just because you can't get it all in. And one of the things that I stole from James Clear, we also have in our Balance365 program is to have kind of a backup plan. And one of my favorite "all or something tools is the if/then statement. Do you remember this? We've talked about this, right? Lauren: Yup, Yup. Annie: That, so what that looks like to me is, "Okay, if I can't get in my workout over lunch, then I will take a 10 minute walk before go home." Or "If I can't get in a full workout this morning, then I will do 30 minutes of it," you know? But like again, you have to, it's just a backup plan. It's to help you think of like, "Okay, I can't do this, but what can I do?" Not, "Well, I can't do this. I can't do anything." It's like, what's the something here? And you know, that's a really good example, Annie. A lot of times, you know, they'll be running late. This happens to me a lot. I drop my kids off at school and if we don't get out the door on the right time, then I'm going to be five minutes late for my class at the gym. And there's so many times where I'm like, "Oh, I'm late. I'm just, I don't, I shouldn't, I shouldn't even go." I'm like, "You know what? I can show up five, 10 minutes late and still get in a great workout. It's shorter, you know, I might have to play catch up a little bit, do my warm up, and then jump in. Or I might have to stay a little bit later, but I can still do something instead of just saying, oh, I missed it so I can't do anything." Lauren: Right. And I think having that if/then statement planned out in advance is also really helpful. So because for me, I know that when things aren't going my way, like when I'm rushed and flustered, that's not the time for me to be like, "Okay, well what can I do?" Like, I'm more likely in that moment to say "Screw it," but if I have this planned out and I'm like, "No, if I can't do this, then I will at least do this." Then I'm like, you know, it makes me feel that much better about doing it in the moment. Annie: Yeah. And let's be honest, like, if you're listening to this, you're probably a busy woman. You either, you know, whether you work or not or how many kids you have, like we're all really, you know, our schedules are packed as much as, as we'd like to admit that they've, like, we have time, like we have time to exercise but if kids get sick, school gets canceled, things come up, if you're like me, forget about projects that you're supposed to have done for Lauren and you're like, "Oh crap, I have to do this now." And like you said at the beginning of the show, Lauren, exercise is one of the first things that gets chopped off the list for a lot of people- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: But maybe instead of chopping it all off, can you just chop off some of it? You know, like, can you do the something? Lauren: Right. Annie: Yes. Okay. Let's do a quick recap. Ways to simplify your fitness. The first one was to level up. You don't have to go from zero to 60 overnight. You can just take small steps and just keep leveling up and up and up and up and up until you're at a fitness level that you're comfortable with. Step two, you can repeat the same workout. We debunked the idea of muscle confusion, that you don't need to keep your muscles guessing. And in fact, the opposite can be true, that consistency and repetition are needed to get #gains. Step three, focus on large muscle groups, especially if you're short on time. You can do a bunch of isolation exercises, which is great if that's the style of exercise you like or if you're into bodybuilding. It's not necessary though, which is why you see us using a lot of movements like squats, deadlifts, pullups, pushups. You can also get rid of the gear if that's keeping you from doing any exercise at all. You don't need a ton of equipment, your PJ's can double as workout clothes. You can use just one piece of equipment or body weight workouts, it all counts and number five, "all or something" your workouts, which means if you can't do it all perfectly, then you can do something, right? Lauren: Sounds good. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Sounds like a plan. Annie: Yes. Like who doesn't want to go exercise, right? Like, let's go! Lauren: Says the person I know- Annie: I actually didn't exercise this morning. I took the day off and I am totally fine with that because rest and recovery is needed. So, I am walking the walk, right? Talking the talk. Walking the walk. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Okay. Well, thanks, Lauren. And hey, if our listeners want to continue the discussion or if they need more information on a ways to simplify their fitness, they can join our free Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook, 40,000 women worldwide. A lot of them are already working on their exercise habit or working movement into their day through their NEAT and we would love to have you in there if you aren't there, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Okay, good chat, Lauren will talk to you later. Lauren: Alright. Bye. Annie: Bye.    

Cheat meals have been a part of popular diet culture for a long time and there are even experts who promote them as being healthy. But what is the truth? Join us as Annie and Lauren unpack the assumptions that are made about cheat meals and explore what balance and moderation mean in the context of healthy, happy living. What you’ll hear in this episode: Do cheat meals boost your metabolism? Could cheat meals be negating your progress? What the experts say about cheat meals Do cheat meals provide a psychological break The Pink Polar Bear effect and cheat meals What “sugar addicted rats” really tell us about restriction Do cheat meals help you stay on track? Cycles of binge restrict - seasonal, time of day, days of the weak How to enjoy treats without cheat days The Goldilocks approach to balance What to do when your pendulum swings back How to find balance in the middle Resources: Is Sugar Addictive? 49: Diet Culture Explained Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: The philosophy of a cheat meal is based on the idea that for one meal or one day a week you can eat whatever you like and it seems to have become the standard in many mainstream diet plans. Fans of cheat meals boast that they boost your metabolism, provide a psychological break and help you stay on track with your goals but do they really? On today's episode of Balance 365 life radio Lauren and I dive into our thoughts and experiences on if cheat meals help or hurt your relationship with food and how you can actually enjoy the foods you love without relying on cheat meals. Enjoy! Lauren, it's me and you again. How are you? Lauren: Hi. I feel like we should have so Mariah Carey in the background. Annie: Oh yeah, we should have, maybe Vanessa can, our podcast editor can put some in the background since Jen's not here. Jen is not a Mariah Carey fan and Lauren and I are diehard Mariah Carey fans. Lauren: Like old school Mariah. Annie: Yeah, in fact on Saturday night there's a bar in my town that is an over 30 bar, which- Lauren: Oh my god. Annie: But the it's great because they play a lot of Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston and Janet Jackson and Paula Abdul. Lauren: Do you have to show your ID to prove that you're over 30? Annie: You don't but yeah, I just don't think many people under 30 it's really their thing. Lauren: Want to go. Annie: It's definitely an older crowd but the music is so good so it's fun just to go dancing there because it's like you're in middle school. It's like you're at those middle school, like school parties again. Lauren: And like the skating party. Annie: Yes, like Jay for roll away. Lauren: It reminds me of that meme that says there needs to be a bar, like, for people who like to have 2 drinks then go to bed before 9 o'clock. Annie: Yup, that's me. I had a couple glasses of wine at dinner then we went out dancing with my girlfriends and it was great. Lauren: Like that sounds fun. Annie: It was fun. It was, I mean, that's essentially what happens in my bathroom every morning, you know, a little dance party with Mariah Carey- Lauren: But maybe without the wine with. Annie: Yes or or maybe with a lot of coffee. Just replace the wine with coffee. Anyways,  I'm happy you're here with me today because we're talking about cheat meals and I used to be a big cheat meal fan. Did you ever do a cheat meal? Did you ever do that like? Lauren: Yes, I did lots of cheat meals. They were always like, Saturday it was like my cheat meal day. Annie: Mine was Friday night and then it kind of wiggled its way into Saturday and kind of eventually came around Sunday which we will actually talk about later today but the cheat meal was kind of a standard in a lot of diets. Lauren: Yep. Annie: I don't know if you see this too in your area but it's kind of touted as like the go to philosophy for a lot of, especially in the gym setting, I feel, like a lot of people are doing, you know, that if it fits your macros or whatever and then they have their one designated cheat meal or cheat day. But the idea is that you can eat whatever you want in that timeframe, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: And there's actually even some "experts" that make claims as to why a cheat meal can be a good thing for you and they can say everything from it boosts your metabolism, that it can give you a psychological break from dieting and they can also say that it helps you keep you on track with your plan, which we're just going to blow those right out of the water in the next few minutes. So are you ready? Do you want to just get right into it or do you have any cheat meal thoughts before we jump into it? Lauren: Do you have any cheat meal thoughts? No, no, we can jump right in. Annie: Okay, let's go. So claim number one: cheat meals boost your metabolism. Lauren, you're kind of the nutrition guru, you are, not kind of, you are the nutrition guru. Is that true? Do cheat meals boost your metabolism? Lauren: No, I mean food boosts your metabolism in general and if you need a cheat meal to boost your metabolism, you are not eating enough right or being way too restrictive. Yeah and you know, to add to that whole eating breakfast, jumpstarts your metabolism, like, that's not true either so no, not and also one cheat meal can undo your results for the entire week and I think, I know you've probably experienced this too, right,where you you put in all this hard work throughout the entire week and so your cheat meal you all the things and I think we underestimate how much, how many calories we can eat during a cheat meal or a cheat day and it really, it kind of "undoes" everything you just worked to do, right and if you instead just kind of make smaller, more manageable changes throughout the entire week you don't need a cheat meal and you probably or could get better results anyway. Annie: Yeah, the first time I was, that concept of essentially a cheat meal having the, could be an opportunity to essentially negate all the work you did throughout the week I was in a doctor's office and I was talking to my primary care doctor, this was before I was a personal trainer. I was in the fitness industry, this is was long before this but I was expressing to her that I was trying to make some changes to my diet but that I wasn't losing weight and she asked, like, well, you know, what are you doing and I said well you know Monday through Friday I do really well, I, you know, pack my lunches, eat breakfast, I eat dinner, my snacks are this and that, like all the gold standard, sort of balanced diet stuff, right, it was heavy on the restriction side, of course. Because that's, you know, what I knew then but I said, you know, then on the weekends, then we'll eat out and she was like "Well, tell me about your eating out" and I was like, "Well, we'll go to the, you know, the restaurant down the corner or this or that" and she was like, "I hear that you're trying to make some changes and you have some really good intentions," she's like, "I want you to know that one of those meals can negate any caloric deficit you've tried to acquire during the week" and I was mad. I was mad when I heard that because I was like "No, I work so hard during the week to get this result and then I essentially just blow it all in one Chinese buffet, like, is that what you're telling me?" She was like,  "Well, look, it's not personal but yes, it's possible." Lauren: Yeah, that's really like, exactly what I used to do. I know a friend of mine, do you guys have On The Border? Annie: Yeah  we ate at On The Border when you were here. Lauren: Oh, well we would go to On The Border, there's one like by my house and we would eat the chips and salsa first, right, then I would get these tacos, these amazing tacos with the rice and then we would get this like cake dessert thing which had like the cake with the gooey chocolate center and ice cream and it was like, I probably, yeah, I would definitely overdo it because I was so hungry and so excited to actually eat good food, you know, because when you're restricting yourself so heavily throughout the week you want food that tastes good, like, you want taste. Annie: And I know we've said this a million and one times on this podcast before but I'm going to say it again, restriction sets you up to binge. Lauren: Yes. Annie: And so it's no surprise that if you're restricting, restricting, restricting, you know, like, white knuckling it through the week and then you get to that cheat meal on Friday or Saturday or Sunday or whatever it is or cheat day, it's no wonder you're like "Game on! Let's go, I'm going to get all the things! You know, I'm going to start at breakfast and I'm going to go all the way to dinner, you know or I'm going to have this, like, 3 course meal if you're just doing one meal, like, I'm going to I'm going to expand that meal into an appetizer and then a main course and then a dessert and then a side dish and some heavy caloric drinks or some alcohol or whatever." That's normal, that's exactly what we would expect from someone that is white knuckling it through the week, like. Lauren: Right and when you only have one day or one meal to get in all your favorite foods, like, I'm going to fit as much as I possibly can fit in my stomach right now, like, and I still go out to eat, like, I still eat chips and salsa and tacos and sometimes order dessert but I just eat less, like, I don't eat as many chips and salsa because I'm not starving, like, I'll eat, you know, I'll take half of my meal home because I don't need it all and if we do order a dessert, like, the whole family shares that, I have a few bites and like that's it, so not saying you can't go out to eat but it's just a different kind of experience. Annie: Absolutely. I think that's what we call moderation here at Balance365. Lauren: Oh, OK. Is that the term? Annie: Is that a new concept to you, Lauren? Jokes, jokes. OK, claim number 2: cheat meals provide a psychological break. Is that true? Lauren: No, I don't, not in the long run. So it can feel like a break when you're in it, right, but then you have to go back to restricting. I remember I always used to like, plan, like you said, I would play my whole day. Annie: Yes, right. Lauren: Plan what I'm going to eat for each meal, the whole cheat day but then you have to go back to it and we had Marci Evans on the podcast a few weeks ago and we talked all about sugar addiction, right or whether sugar addiction is a real thing, so if you haven't listened to that, definitely go listen that was a really good and if you remember, she talked about the sugar addicted rats that "prove" that sugar addiction is a real thing, right, when you read the click baity articles and whatever. But what we, what the study actually showed was the rats that had that addiction-like behavior were the ones that were, they had to fast before hand, right, they restricted their food before hand and then they gave them that access to the sugar and they gave them sometimes a lot of sugar, sometimes they would take it away and give it back and the rats that did not have that restrictive behavior before hand they just ate it like regular food, right, they didn't exhibit that same addicted like behavior. Annie: Yeah  so what she was suggesting and what other research has backed is that it's not necessarily the food, it's the way in which the food is presented or the context around the food. Lauren: Right. Annie: So yeah, when you're saying, no, I can't have this until Friday, like, yeah, come Friday you are salivating for it? Lauren:  Like, yeah and I think we talk about this in probably almost every single podcast but like the Pink Polar Bear effect, when you tell yourself you can't have something, you want it more and actually something that was really interesting, I think it was another Tracy Mann study who we're going to have on the podcast soon too shows that when you restrict your food you are more likely to notice food around you and that's by design, right. So when we were at real risk for starving we were more likely to notice when food was around us and that was helpful to us back then, but now with food everywhere it's not so helpful but when you restrict your food or tell yourself you can't have that food, you notice food more around you I mean, which is super interesting. Annie: I think if you are trying to get pregnant, have been pregnant, the thing that comes to mind is like, when we started trying to conceive with my children, you know, it was like all I saw was pregnant- Lauren: Everyone- Annie: Everyone was pregnant right, like, the farmer's market was just full of pregnant women. Lauren: Or you ever get a new car and then you've never seen that car before and now you see it everywhere and like everyone has your car. Annie: Yes, the power of suggestion, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie:  OK claim number 3, this is kind of what I was hinting at earlier is that meals make it easier to stay on track, which- Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Tell me about that, Lauren. Lauren: Well, so your cheat meal on Friday night leads you to your cheat day on Saturday which leads you to your cheat day on Sunday. Normally I could cut it back off for Monday morning but trying to just do one cheat meal over the weekend and then stop is really difficult and I think most of our listeners who have been through this can completely understand where we're coming with this. Annie: And I think it's really common, you know, if you first start implementing the philosophy of cheat meals to be like "OK, cheat meal one and done" and then, you know, a few months later it's like a cheat meal Friday night goes into breakfast Saturday and then after a year of cheat mealing it you're like "Oh, look, my whole weekend is now a cheat meal, which is essentially my experience." Lauren: Right and then it's like what are you working so hard Monday through Thursday for, right? You're just torturing yourself for no reason. Annie: Right and the other thing that's kind of actually thinking about it in those terms, we've talked a lot about Weight Watchers, I've been a member multiple, multiple times but that's essentially what I was doing around weigh ins was I would kind of white knuckle it, restrict, restrict, restrict pre-weigh in and I would go weigh in so I could weigh in light and reach my goal for the week and then after the weigh in it was game on, like, finally, just give me the foods that I was saying I couldn't have before I weighed in and which leads us right into why or how rather cheat days can create the perfect storm for yo yo dieting, weight loss, weight gain, weight loss, weight gain, weight loss, weight gain is essentially what we're saying, Lauren and I are saying is that you spend, you know, 3, 4, 5 days dieting, dieting, dieting, dieting, restricting, restricting, restricting and then the other 2, 3, 4 days game on, all in,  I'm just going to eat whatever I want, you get a case of the screw its and that's like, "Let's go, right?" Lauren: Yeah for sure and then, we're kind of talking about this as week and weekend but there's also like the seasonal thing, right, like we just got over, we just got done the holidays, right that's a big thing too, like, you diet, diet, diet up to the holidays and then you go crazy until, you know, sometimes the beginning of January, sometimes it's until the spring, right and then you just repeat that again. So this can be like shorter, like weekly or it can be even shorter than that, like, sometimes you'll see people trying to eat as little as possible throughout the day and then they go crazy at night, right? They can't stop eating at night, like, after their kids go to bed or when they get home for work or whatever, so it could be a short of a time frame as that, it could be a week, it could be months. But yeah, it's kind of all the same, even though it's different. Annie:Yeah and I just want to say, I want to reiterate that the restrictive diet that's paired with the cheat days or cheat meals is what makes it necessary, "feel necessary" to eat all those foods because your hunger, you're hungry, you're thinking about all the foods you said you couldn't eat and your quantities have likely been repressed before that and so you want to eat a high volume of foods and then you combine that with what we're talking about with the lab rats earlier, like, you know, you get this addiction-like response because you've been restricting these foods, it's not because the foods themselves are addictive. it's the manner in which you present the foods to yourself. Lauren: Right, it's like we always talk about it's the diets, like, it feeds itself, right, like you go on a diet and going on the diet causes you to overeat which causes you, you know, shame and guilt and all these feelings which make you want to diet again, it just goes in a circle it over and over and over. Annie: Yes, so how do you enjoy treats without cheat days? Lauren: Well, you want to start not at the cheat day part ,you want to start at the diet part. Annie: Yes, so many people are- Lauren: So make your diet not so restrictive and you, like, you just said you don't have that strong desire and strong need to overeat all the things. Annie: Right. It's not, the answer isn't eat everything in sight all the time and it's not, also on the flip side, to eat only healthy or "good" foods and never eat treats again, the answer is daily consistent moderation. Lauren: Well, there is that word again, moderation. Annie: It just keeps coming up. It's so weird. And that's finding a balance between the food you love and a way of eating that helps you live your life and show up in your life as your best self. So instead of cutting out sweets and treats or pizza or tacos or whatever it is or waiting until the weekend, you plan to enjoy a reasonable amount of treats or pizza or tacos throughout the week and you know and you might have some variations of that, so obviously you are not going to probably choose to eat a cheat meal for the whole, or what you would traditionally eat at a cheap meal, you know, I'm thinking of someone who is currently listening and they're like imposing the cheat meal philosophy. You might have a little bit of a pendulum swing where while you're, as Lauren said, trying to stop this process in the restriction, you might feel that your cheat meal carries on for a week or a couple weeks and you eat all the foods but eventually, in our experience, as Lauren said and we've shared this on the podcast before, you're probably going to find that if you continue to cheat meal type foods, whatever that looks like to you, over the long haul you're probably not going to feel very good. Like you just aren't and again, we just shared this on our last podcast that we recorded that the diet industry wants you to believe that if you are left to your own devices you will sit on the couch, eat all the foods all the time and do nothing, right, that's what they want us to believe but we would offer that if left to your own devices, our bodies naturally crave a variety of foods, balance, moderation, movement, variety and so one way to implement moderation is to allow yourselves to eat those cheat meal foods throughout the week, not just on the weekends or not just when you have those designated, like, "I'm allowed to eat this" moment. Lauren: Right and it's not, you don't need to confine yourself to just "diet foods" right, like, eat foods that you enjoy and eat enough of them to sustain you and you won't feel that crazy desire to eat all the things that taste good and are super hyper palatable and it's just, it's exactly that going from one side of the pendulum to the other to in the middle. Annie: Yeah, because part of finding balance whether it's with food or exercise or anything, anything in life when you're trying to find balance, part of finding balance is experimenting what feels like too much and what feels like too little. I mean, even, you know, like, thinking about, like, you're learning to drive a car, which is another analogy we've used before. You know, when I watch my kids drive a car when they turn, you know, a car, they're not driving my car, just to be clear, you know, whether to drive like a go cart or a video game, when they turn, they crank the wheel hard and when they stop they push the brake hard and when they press the gas pedal, they push the gas hard and they have to just learn that, like, that was too much, this is too little. I got to find that balance in between what's just enough for me. It's like Goldilocks, right? Lauren: Yeah and we see this all the time in our Balance365 community and the Healthy Habits Happy Moms community. Someone will be like, well I tried this for a day and I ate all the things that didn't work and now I don't feel good, right, like, you are not, you have to realize you are not going to get this right on the 1st try, like, it takes trial and error. But going through that process is worth it in the end, like it's not going to take forever, it will take some time to figure out but then you have it and you know and you know what's too much and you know what works for you. Annie: Yeah, so if you're someone that's listening, I'm thinking of myself when I was 20, you know, 2 or 23 and I was doing cheat meals on a Friday night. I guarantee if I let go of that restriction during the week, cheat meals on the weekend sort of thing I would have had a period where my pendulum swung in the opposite direction and I would have been pizza, tacos, chips like a steady diet of just those three foods, like no vegetables, no fruit, very little, you know, protein. And I would have I would have eventually have come out of it and in fact, I did, that's essentially what I did is, like, let go of that process was I had to move through some of this, like, "OK, I'm going to experiment what feels like too much food and then I'm going to let my pendulum kind of settle somewhere in the middle which is now I'm able to enjoy pizza and tacos and chips, you know, as little or as much as I see fit and I'm completely neutral about it." Lauren: Yeah and we're not saying, you know, you're never going to eat another vegetable again, like, once I kind of find, once you, say, sort of start settling back in the middle, that's when it's really helpful to kind of adopt these other healthy habits that we teach in Balance365 like adding your vegetables and making sure you're going enough protein but doing it from the mindset, from a balanced mindset instead of a diet mindset, it makes all the difference. Annie: Yeah and I think too, you know, just to wrap up, remembering that this is a process, right, like we were just saying that it's going to be a practice, it's going to be an evolution. And you might have some missteps but we encourage our Balance365 members to look at this as like an experiment and it's just kind of information that you're gathering about yourself so you can, you know, that saying when you know better, you can do better and you can make different choices based off of your needs the more information you have about yourself. But, all in all, we would we would largely encourage moderation over cheat meals, for all the reasons we just listed previously but we think that really promotes a healthy relationship with food and that way you get to eat your pizza and your Cheetos, next to your kale. Lauren: That was a different podcast. Annie: I know but it still applies, it still applies, you can have it all and kale. Lauren: Yes. Annie: OK, good, we crushed that, Lauren. Lauren: Yeah we did. Annie: Yeah and if you need, if we say so ourselves, if you need help, if you're currently like cheat mealing it up and you're like, "OK, yeah, I hear what they're saying, this isn't working for me anymore, I don't want to continue this" and you want support and you're not already in our Facebook group please join us. It is a free private Facebook group. We are Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook we have 40,000 plus, and growing daily, women in our group that would encourage you, love to encourage you and cheer and clap for you and support you as you find out what balance and moderation looks like in your diet. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Alright, thanks, Lauren. Lauren: Alright. Bye. Annie: Bye  

  Secrets from the Eating Lab Author Dr. Traci Mann, professor of Psychology at the University of Minnesota and an expert on the psychology of eating, dieting and self-control joins Jen, Annie and Lauren in discussing the science behind the hot topics of self-control, temptation, diets and the alternative to dieting.   What you’ll hear in this episode: How much of our weight can we influence? How much of our weight is influenced by genetics? The concept of the Leanest Livable Weight Goal weights and reasonable ranges Weight regain and dieting – how common is it? Why you regain weight after dieting What happens to your body when you go on a diet What you start to notice when you go on a diet Is weight regain guaranteed? Characteristic of people who keep weight off The role of healthy movement  you enjoy in maintaining weight loss Self-control: who struggles with it and can you increase it? The obesogenic environment: what it is Temptation free checkouts and apple bins, reducing the need for willpower at the grocery store The role of small obstacles and inconveniences Making healthy choices convenient to increase compliance Keeping the focus on health instead of weight   Resources: Secrets from the Eating Lab Dr. Mann’s Facebook Page Dr. Mann on Twitter Episode 4: What A 70-year-old Starvation Experiment Taught Us About Dieting Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Welcome back to another episode of Balance365 Life radio. Before we get into today’s podcast episode with an amazing guest, I want to share with you a super sweet message that we received from one of our community members on Facebook today. Christy says “I have been a part of Healthy Habits Happy Moms for almost 2 years now and a Balance365er since May of 2018. I am all in to the way this group thinks and believes. I’m at the point now that when I workout I channel Annie Brees, when I mention establishing habits to coworkers I channel Lauren Koski and when I’m trying to give some perspective to friends about diet culture and treating myself well I channel Jennifer Campbell. I can’t thank the three of you enough for how you have changed my outlook and daily life. I’m chipping away at the program but at this point my greatest takeaway is the way I live out each day because of this new perspective. I can go on and on but I just have to give a big thanks to Jennifer, Annie and Lauren. Thank you so much, Christy and I want to share with all of our community members that any email, any message, any direct message on Instagram we read them all and we are so appreciative of any reviews that you share on the podcast. We love them all. We cannot thank you enough.   Alright, let’s jump into this podcast because I’m super excited about it. I’m not sure if we have referenced any other book on this podcast as much as we have her book, Secrets from the Eating Lab by Dr Traci Mann. Dr. Mann is a professor of Psychology at the University of Minnesota and an expert on the psychology of eating, dieting and self-control. In addition to all her impressive professional experience, she’s also a mom who loves those ice cream, super relatable, hey? If you’re curious about how much control we really have over our weight, how you can avoid temptation and why diets don’t work and what to do instead then you have to listen to this interview with Dr Mann. Enjoy! Jen and Lauren, we have a special, special guest are you two pumped for the show or what? Lauren: So pumped. Jen: Yes, I’ve been waiting. We arranged this well before Christmas I think so I’ve just been like vibrating waiting for it. Annie: Yes and what our listeners didn’t catch before we started recording was Jen gushing for about 10 minutes about how she loves Dr Traci Mann. Welcome to the show, thank you for joining us. Dr. Mann:  Well, thanks for having me, you guys are so nice. Annie: We, the 3 of us have read your book, The Secrets from the Eating Lab and we reference studies, quotes, information from this book so often in our community and our podcast if they haven’t read it, if listeners haven’t read it we would highly recommend it and it’s heavy on the science because you’re a researcher but I wasn’t overwhelmed by the science when I was reading it. I felt it was very like, I could understand the concepts that you were sharing. So, thank you so much for joining us. Dr. Mann: I would also say I’m sure I shouldn’t say this but it’s free Kindle right now. Jen: OK. Annie: Oh my! How long is it going to be free for? Dr. Mann: You know, I have a vague memory of agreeing to this with my agent like a year ago thinking it was like a month long thing and I think it’s possibly forever, I don’t know. Jen: OK we will Dr. Mann:-never sell another book. So, whatever, it’s fine. Annie: Well I will- Dr. Mann: Better people read it than buy it. Annie: say if you look at the 3 of our copies they are highlighted, like top to bottom, they have been like, right, like, they’ve been used, they’ve been well loved. Lauren: I think the name Traci Mann has been on probably 90 percent of our podcast. Jen: Yeah and this, so I have this page highlighted, what I was gushing about before we hit record was how Traci, Dr. Traci, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to- Dr. Mann: Just call me Traci. Annie: We’re besties now. Jen: So you are very much a messy middle writer in that you really objectively look at the research, you haven’t gone headfirst into any kind of movement or philosophy and just looked at research to support your philosophy, you’ve looked at the research which has allowed you to come up with a very objective, balanced message. Dr. Mann: That was the goal for sure. Jen: And so I just I highlighted this a long time ago because it was perfect. It says, it’s on page 20 and so what we hear a lot and what our audience is very aware of is that we hear two things, we hear that you cannot control your weight, you should not even try to lose weight, it’s pointless, your weight is predetermined, what you have, what you’ve got, that’s what you’re going to have forever and then on the other side of the spectrum, we have this whole industry of transformations that it is totally realistic and sustainable to lose half your body weight forever etc, etc. When what we actually know and what the research provides is is that you, it’s actually like in the middle but what you had written and I feel like I was waiting for this message. When I found your book I felt like “I have arrived. I am home. Like, this is what I have been looking for, somebody who is just sensible.” And you say, “I’m not saying you can’t influence your weight at all, just that the amount of influence you have is limited and you’ll generally end up within your genetically determined set weight range” and I thought that was so perfect in that you’re not willing to say you cannot control your weight, you’re trying to say “Hey, we can influence our weight, it’s just not to the level that you have been led to believe by the fad diet industry.” Dr. Mann: Exactly. That’s right so it’s partly genetic, but not 100 percent genetic.   Jen: Right and isn’t there a percentage? Dr. Mann: I think it was 70%- Jen: Yes I think it was 70% but you have a, there’s about a range of 30 percent in there that you can influence your weight. Dr. Mann: Yeah and I mean, it’s not just that and it’s really interesting that people are staking out these extreme positions, you know, it’s like, “Come on, people, nothing is black and white like that.” Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But with the weight thing, it’s not just, it’s not the case that you can’t maneuver your weight around to some extent, obviously you can’t, like you just said, you can’t lose half your body weight but you can move it around to some extent but the problem is that it’s really hard, it’s hard to move it around a lot. It’s not hard to move it around a little. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: And that’s mostly what we talk about in the book is ways to move it around a little without it taking over your life. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But to move it around a lot, it’s not that it can’t be done, it’s just that it’s really, really hard. Jen: And it’s very, it can be hard on us physically and psychologically to be trying to move our weight around to those different extreme ends. Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly. That’s why I like to talk about this Leanest Liveable Weight idea. By Leanest Livable Weight I mean it’s the lowest weight that you can comfortably have without having to work so hard at it. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Because the leanest weight you can live at comfortably, now that has been misinterpreted by the lovely people like GOOP.com – the lowest weight you can actually survive at without dying. Jen: Right and that’s not what any of us here are trying to talk about. That’s what a lot of women are trying to be and they might they may not even realize it, that that’s what they’re actually trying to achieve but that’s definitely not healthy, physically or psychologically. Annie: And I just want to add to that we’ve worked with thousands of women across the span of the globe and one of the common themes that keeps coming up for women is goal weights or they have this like ideal body weight and oftentimes if you asked them, like, “Well, where did that weight come from?” it’s, like, so, like, not evidence based, it’s like, “Oh I weighed that when I graduated high school or that’s what I weighed on I wedding day or that’s my pre-pregnancy weight” and it might not be realistic. Dr. Mann: Or it sounds good. Annie: Yeah, or that’s what I read on some chart in, you know, I even remember coming across a scale in the mall bathroom, why there was a scale in the mall bathroom I don’t know but it had a chart of, like, body weights and like this is if you’re large frame, small frame. And it’s really not realistic, usually not realistic for those goal weights. So we love the idea that you have a range because as a woman I know that my weight can fluctuate you know 10-15 pounds versus in a month, in a year, how would you recommend going about determining a reasonable range of weight for someone? Dr. Mann: Yeah, that’s a really good question. That’s the hardest question to answer and the question I’m least likely to be able to satisfy you with an answer to because there isn’t, like, a scientific formula to figure out your sort of set range, so instead you have to just kind of make a guess based on your sort of knowledge of what your weight has done over your life and a lot of people notice that there’s a certain weight area that they keep coming back to. So they lose some weight but then they come back to this weight or they gain some weight but then they plop down in this weight without even trying very hard and so if it’s, you know, the weight that your body seems to keep wanting to come back to that’s probably right there, right there in the set range, right where your body is trying to keep you because you’re good at it. Annie: Yeah, in your book and I know there’s going to be people they’re going to say, they’re going to scoff at this but you didn’t just look at people that have lost weight and then regained it, you also looked at people that were trying, studies that have tried to get people to gain weight and it was hard to even maintain a weight gain as well, which further supports the idea that, like, this is where your body can effortlessly live or with minimal effort. Dr. Mann: Right, it’s true and then the weight gains that are particularly interesting because so many people think, you know, I am so careful with what I eat, if I wasn’t this careful I would for sure gain a whole ton of weight. Lauren: Yes, we hear that all the time. Dr. Mann: Yeah, you do, you know, I think people really worry about that and I think partly why they worry about it is because if they do eat a lot more than normal for a while, they do gain weight, but they only gain a certain amount of weight, you know what I mean? So maybe you’ll gain your 5 pounds or 10 pounds but you’re not going to gain 50 pounds, you know, or if you do you’ll come back down pretty easily. Jen: Right,  we see a pendulum swing happen quite often with women who are coming off dieting, if they have spent a decade of their life dieting. We see this pendulum swing where they go from, you know, one weight and the pendulum swings up to a higher weight that they are comfortable with or that is maybe within their set point range but then it settles down somewhere in the middle and we talk about that and you reference this in your book, The Minnesota Starvation Experiment. Dr. Mann: Right. Jen: So if you are coming from years and years and years of restriction, you look at, we have a whole podcast on the Minnesota Starvation Experiment. So if you are coming from a period of very severe restriction, the pendulum swing is almost an expectation, it’s almost, like, we would say it’s a normal and natural response to dieting. Dr. Mann: Oh exactly, it exactly is. I mean, we all need to reframe how we think about dieting. When people think about dieting, they think of that initial weight loss and that’s their image of dieting and then they assume once they have that initial weight loss, they just stay down there. Jen:  Right. Dr. Mann: But actually, if you followed all the research looking longer at dieters, you see it’s completely predictable that the weight comes back on. Jen:  Right. Dr. Mann: There’s a tiny, tiny minority of people who keep it off. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: But for the majority of people, it just comes back on, you know, over the next like 2, 3, 4, 5 years. So we need to realize that that is a normal part of dieting and not a failure by any particular individual dieter. Jen: Right, right. Dr. Mann: And the thing is they always blame themselves for that. Jen: For that pendulum swing. Dr. Mann: That’s just what happens. Your body needs that to happen, your body is making that happen. Jen: Yeah, it’s like, I think you also, I think we’ve used this analogy and I think it came from your book, it’s like gasping for air after holding your breath. Dr. Mann: Right, I didn’t invent that analogy but I did include it, yes. Jen: Yes. Dr. Mann: Yes, it’s true. I feel like anything I say you’ve already talked about but I mean the things that happen when you restrict for a while. Your body, of course, doesn’t know you want to look thinner, your body thinks you’re in the process of starving to death and so it makes these alterations to save you which is so kind of it and yet everyone gets so mad about that because all those changes that save you from starving to death, make, basically make it very, very, very easy to regain the weight. Jen: Right and it probably, well, you can correct me if I’m wrong, it doesn’t really matter what size you are, if you are 120 pounds or if you’re 220 pounds when you do that restriction, your body still, you know, it doesn’t matter how much body fat you have, your body still thinks you are starving. Dr. Mann: Right, if your body detects that much less is coming in than it than expected then it just, all these changes just click on, you know, your metabolism changes, uh oh, now you have to eat less to keep losing weight. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Hormone levels change, uh oh, you’re going to feel hungry. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: When you eat an amount of food that didn’t used to make you feel hungry, you know and then there’s all these attention changes too, right? So you notice food more if it’s around, you can’t get your mind off it once you start thinking about it, so all those things make regaining the weight way too easy and keeping it off way too hard. It doesn’t make it impossible, though and so this is a key, another key thing that I think people sometimes don’t realize. Any person who knows someone who has lost weight and kept it off, you know, comes and says to me “You can’t say that your body does this stuff, you can’t say your body makes these changes that cause you to regain the weight because I know people who’ve kept it off.” Well I’m not saying that these changes make it impossible to keep off the weight, I’m saying these changes make it really, really hard to keep off the weight. So hard that most people can’t do it. Jen: Right. We were talking before we hit record, again, another thing I had brought up is that because we are, you know, we try to navigate that messy middle and help women figure out what’s right for them, I had said, you know, hearing these two, I remember when I was first getting into this and starting to read about it like 4 to 5 years ago, I would start hearing that extreme messaging “You can’t keep off weight, you just can’t” and actually my husband has lost about 60 pounds, he was, I think, he was about 300 pounds when he graduated high school and now he sits at between kind of 220 and 245, I think. I mean, he’s going to be horrified that I’m talking about this but anyways but that just, that comes very naturally to him to kind of sit around there and so I would, you know, I was the same as those people. I kept hearing that it’s impossible to lose weight and I thought, he has now kept that off for 20 years and he’s not working, like, I don’t see him get up every day and like work at it, he’s not like, he’s not micromanaging his food, he’s not, he has some great habits, he, you know, he eats balanced meals, he tries to get to the gym 3 to 4 times a week but he’s lived a high stress life like the rest of us, he’s had kids, gone to grad school, all of that and so that just didn’t sit well with me and I thought, instead of looking at everybody who is failing, what are these successful people doing? Like why are they able to do it? Which kind of comes why, again, why your book is so refreshing, because you sort of, you’ve got that sort of nailed. Dr. Mann: Well, you know, I mean, I don’t even know and it’s interesting how you describe your husband as not having to work at keeping it off. Because what the research shows of the people who lose weight and keep it off is that those people are, you know, fairly obsessed with every little calorie that goes into their body and with every little bit of exercise they do to burn calories. So that’s what I expect to hear when I hear that people kept it off for a long time but one thing that I’ve been wondering about lately and no one has done the study that I know of and I don’t actually even know how to do this study but I’ve been wondering like, the people who lose a lot of weight and keep it off are those people who had happened to recently gain a bunch of weight but weren’t normally really heavy? You know what I mean, like I’m wondering if those who end up taking, you know, people who have had this unusual weight gain as opposed to people who are just always some high weight and took it off. Lauren: Yeah we see. Jen: I have theories. Go ahead, Lauren. Lauren: Yeah, we kind of see this and this is, I think, kind of in my story too, we see people who start dieting at a young age, right and then they just keep putting on weight as they do the rebound and you know, their weight wasn’t maybe supposed to be quite that high but because of the dieting it keeps going up. Dr. Mann: It got inflated from their- Lauren: Yeah and so for me, when I, after I stopped dieting and I did gain a lot of weight, when I finally went came to this place of balance my weight did go down and I think it’s kind of just like that it came back to its normal range. Jen: My husband also, I haven’t seen any research on this, he has put on a significant amount of muscle over the years so he, you know, at 18 years old, he didn’t go to the gym. He just, you know, his body composition is completely different, he, you can just tell by looking at pictures of him that he had a substantial amount of body fat and then after he left high school he got into boxing and ended up boxing professionally or sorry I should say semi professional, he’s just going to die, when he listens to this, I’ll just give him a little plug, he won the gold medal at the Canadian games in 2007 for boxing. Dr. Mann: Wow. Jen:  I know, amazing, but he just gets so embarrassed when I talk about this. Dr. Mann: You know, just to revise what I was saying, he’s an elite athlete. Jen: Well, he wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say now, I think he’s got more like Dad bod now but he did, he just, he got into, so what we tell our girls in Balance365 is to find movement they like, like if you and you talk about this in your book that if you don’t like what you’re doing you’re never going to stick to it and so when I say my husband doesn’t work at it, it’s not that he doesn’t prioritize exercise and doesn’t prioritize a balanced way to eat, he really enjoys that so it’s not that, so I think what what happens is there are people out there that are just never, they’re never going to enjoy my husband’s lifestyle. I’m not athletic and I am not competitive. I would never have enjoyed training for a boxing match like that or several boxing matches so, but through that- Dr. Mann: I don’t think I would like that either. Jen: Right and so you have to kind of go, you know, and Annie, for example, Annie crossfits like 4-5 times a week which helps her to sustain that 40 pound fat loss that she has done but and so it’s like Annie, personally, doesn’t feel like she wakes up in the morning and micromanages her weight loss, however if I had to get up everyday and go to Crossfit 4-5 times a week, that would feel like I was micromanaging my loss, do you know what I’m saying? Dr. Mann: Yeah, it’s true, so everyone needs to just find a sort of a set of lifestyle habits that aren’t soul crushing for them. Jen: Right, for them and that’s the sort of key that it’s like, what do you like to do and it may not be what somebody else does and so you won’t get the results that person has gotten but hey, that’s OK, like, let’s just be sensible here kind of thing. Dr. Mann: True, I mean, like in the last year or so I’ve had this just chronic hamstring injury, just won’t get better no matter how long it just doesn’t get better and you know, finally my physical therapist was like, you know, it doesn’t hurt when you do spin class, doesn’t hurt when you do yoga, it hurts when you run. It’s like exactly that part of the answer and she’s like “You have to not run” and somehow, her saying that I don’t have to go all winter onto the treadmill, it’s like so freeing to allow myself to do the kinds of exercise that I, I don’t want to say enjoy but that I don’t hate. Annie: Right. Dr. Mann: Even though to me they don’t seem as potent You know, I mean like, my brain is running this but I feel like, you know, all signs are that I’m just as healthy as if I were running as long as I’m doing these other activities and it’s not miserable. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: So thank you, Christina, for freeing me from feeling like I have to use the freaking treadmill. Lauren: Can I, can I go back to, I want to go back to something that Jen said because this. is something that I’ve been wondering about when we hear this about the set weight range is that total weight or is that like fat percentage? Because we do see people who do build muscle, right and they’re the same weight but their body composition is very different, like, how do you know how that plays into this? Dr. Mann: I don’t. I don’t recall ever hearing anyone talking about set weight ranges in any way other than referring to weight. I’ve not heard anyone describe it in terms of muscle mass. Lauren: OK. It’s always something I’ve wondered. Dr. Mann: I don’t think people have, yeah, at least I’ve not encountered it. Jen: Yeah, I’m curious. If you end up putting on this muscle mass and it leads to your total body weight being, you know, a little bit- Lauren: Are the same as what your mass was with less muscle then is that sort of like a “trick” for your body in that it’s like, oh, we’re, you know, we’re the same weight and so you see people that change their body but your body is like “But I still weigh this much and I still need this amount of calories to sustain me.” That might be a future research project for you. Annie: That would reflect my experience, for sure because I have, like, probably a 6 to 7 I would say pound weight range that I have not budged from for maybe a couple years but my body composition has changed within that. A couple of percent, I mean, to me it’s been noticeable but I cannot, like, I have to work really, really hard to get out of that range either above or below it. Dr. Mann: That’s really interesting. So yeah, that might be a good trick, you know, don’t worry about the number, just try to replace some more of that fat with more muscle. Jen: Yeah and I think my husband probably has benefited hugely from his, his body composition is completely different than when he was 18 and I think he’s still a very heavy man, right he’s still like 240 pounds, he’s a heavy man but he’s not, he just has way less fat mass and more muscle mass on him, right? Dr. Mann: That’s great. I never thought about that, very interesting. Jen: Alright. Annie: We will come be your test subjects. Jen: Yes. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Be happy to take a trip to the eating lab up north or kind of down south. Jen: Down south for me. Annie: Yeah, for Jen. Dr. Mann: You’re in Canada. Jen: Yeah, I’m in British Columbia. Yeah. Annie: Yeah, I feel like that’s kind of a good segue talking about, you know, how much your habits or lack thereof kind of consume you because one of the most common comments we get from members or of our community is that they feel like they just need more willpower, more motivation, more self-discipline and if they have those things then they could, like, just stick to their diet, they could stick to their plan, they could reach their goals, right and I know that as a researcher of self-discipline you’ve noted that you’ve heard that echoed as well, that when you share with people that you’re researching that they’re like “Oh yeah, I want more of that” or “How do I get more of that?” In your experience, is more willpower needed? Is that what people are missing? Dr. Mann: No, no, people are missing, so every dieter thinks they are uniquely bad at resisting tempting food, you know, I mean, like, something you sort of alluded to it but constantly people come up to me after talks and or like before talks, “Oh God, self-control, I need more of that, you know, that’s a good thing that I happen to need, me alone, you know,” but everyone is bad at self-control. Everyone struggles with their willpower, thin people, fat people and everyone in between. It’s not the thing that tells us who is going to end up thin and who’s not, you know what I mean, everyone struggles with it, in fact, there’s these, this group of psychologists called positive psychologists that study, like, human strengths, so things like kindness or creativity, or thoughtfulness and what they find is that like the kinds of things that all range really highly kindness, thoughtfulness, people generally believe that they are kind and generally believe they’re thoughtful, the one that comes in dead last every time is self-control. People do not think they have self-control and they’ve repeated that kind of survey in like 53 countries. Jen: Wow. Dr. Mann: It was always at or very, very near the bottom. Nobody thinks they have good self-control, it’s not, it’s not unique to dieters, it’s everyone and it wouldn’t matter if everybody had great self-control because of the environment we all live in and there’s probably no amount that would be enough to survive the onslaught of temptation every minute of the day. Jen: Is this what you would say is the obesogenic environment? Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly and that is what we’re living in and I mean, I shouldn’t have to try to resist buying a candy bar when I’m in Office Depot, buying paper for my printer. Jen: Right and you don’t. Dr. Mann: That should not be a temptation challenge, you know. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: You know, it’s everywhere, all the time. Jen: Right, there’s candy, I don’t know if you guys have staples down there but we have Staples and it’s like an Office Depot and there is candy at the checkout, it’s everywhere. Dr. Mann: A huge selection, I mean and really kind of awesome candy selection. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: At office supply stores for some reason. Jen: So there’s and there’s, I don’t know if this is same down there, but in Canada there is a push to have, like, basically temptation free aisles, so candy free aisles specifically for parents bringing their children to shop because I just argue with my kids nonstop about not buying candy, so then it becomes this thing that children begin to focus on and then they develop these scarcity issues or because there’s just candy and they see it and you’re saying no but and so the other thing that they’ve started offering in grocery stores here is they have apple bins for children so when you are shopping with your kids you take your kids to the apple bin and they can munch on an apple while you’re shopping and this kind of stuff is brilliant, I think. Dr. Mann: Definitely, you know, it all fits the sort of general basic strategy of rearranging things so that you don’t keep encountering temptation. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: If you don’t encounter it, you’re not going to have it. Annie: And that was kind of like a, I don’t want to say a will power hack, but that was one of the things you mentioned in your book that, like, you don’t have to rely so much on willpower or self-control or self-discipline or say no all the time if you can curate your environment to reduce those temptations, right ? Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly. Ideally you don’t want to ever have to say no, you know, ideally you just don’t want to come up, you know. Once a food is on your plate, for example, forget it, you’re eating it. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: If you want to keep things from getting to that point where there’s no hope of resisting it. Jen: Right and we, like, even small things, we were talking about this with our Balance365 community the other day. Simple things like dishing up dinner at the island or on the stove and taking it to the table rather than having all your dishes on the table to dish up from is just a really small hack that you could use to not have seconds or to not, you know, over dish up kind of thing. Dr. Mann: Yeah, exactly and that works because, as we talk about a lot in the book, because people are lazy and small obstacles slow us or stop us. That’s a small obstacle. I could get up from the table and walk 4 feet. That is shocking how many people that stops. Lauren: And I’ve heard you talk about it’s not even just getting up but just moving it further than your arm can reach. Dr. Mann: There’s actually a study that shows that one of my colleagues in the Netherlands literally straining your arm is enough to slow people down. Annie: That’s like the, there’s, I have a salt lamp on the opposite side of my room when I turn it on at night and half the time I get into bed and I’m like “Ugh, that lamp is still on” and I swear more often than not I just sleep with it on because I’m too lazy to get out of bed to turn the lamp on, so like I cannot be inconvenienced. Dr. Mann: I am going to one up you on that sometimes I’m in bed on my back but I really prefer to sleep on my side and I just can’t muster the energy to like just friggin roll half my body over, half! Annie: That and you actually, you actually cover small inconveniences or small opticals is also covered in your book because you tell a story about is it toilet paper. Dr. Mann: Yes, I read that online, as, I was so excited when I read that online so it was a budget tip for strapped households was to when you get the roll toilet paper to smush it a little so that it doesn’t turn easily. Jen: Brilliant. Dr. Mann: You know, so when you go to pull it off it tears off right away, so that leads people to use less toilet paper. Jen: That, I need that for my children. Dr. Mann: Actually it’s good for if you have kids. Jen: They plug the toilet. I’m in there with the plunger once a week. Dr. Mann: It would also help with that but you know, just the fact that it stops a regular adult person from using more toilet paper is another example of how small, miniscule obstacles actually really slow us down. Jen: And Lauren, Lauren only buys single servings of ice cream so that was another one. Lauren: Well, they have them at Kroger, like the little ones ,they’re, like, you know, like, this big instead of the pint or the gallon. Annie: They’re like a little cup or like six ounces or something, 8 ounces. Lauren: Yeah or I just go out to like Dairy Queen or something instead of buying the whole gallon in my house. Dr. Mann: Buy the one. Lauren: Or even just for me is like if we make cookies or something, just putting them in the cabinet and sort of leaving them on the counter, right, we used to just leave it on the counter but if I just put it in the cabinet where I don’t see it every time I walk in the kitchen I end up just forgetting about it. Dr. Mann: Yes, keep temptations out of sights. Jen: We have a saying in our community. We also have a free Facebook community that has 40000 women in it, so they just participate in our philosophy, they haven’t bought our program but one thing we talk about in there is there’s this whole veggie tray revolution and so I started it a couple years ago and my aunt gave me a hand me down, an old circular Tupperware veggie tray and I stocked that veggie tray Sundays and Wednesdays because, like, we just eat it all by Wednesdays now, so that has substantially, and having that front and center in my fridge has substantially increased my family’s vegetable intake and I even take it out during meals. If we’re having grilled cheese sandwiches, the veggie tray will go on the table. Dr. Mann: And so it’s all prepared, like, they’re all clean. Jen: Yes, I have washed them, I chopped them I and I just it’s like, if I just need to do the minimum to set us up for success for the week it’s just that veggie tray takes me under 10 minutes and so we open the fridge and it’s just right there and we’ve also moved our treats to the cupboard above the fridge so I need to get a stool out to get out chocolate and chips and you know, people, you know, these things are simple and they work, you know, and but people just, you know, you tell them but they just, if they’re not, they’re still looking there’s like this magic pill thing going on. They don’t think it can be that simple but it is. Dr. Mann: And so the veggie tray is a good example of removing the obstacles to do something healthy. Jen: Exactly, yes, exactly. Dr. Mann: If you look in the fridge and you want a snack, you’re not going to like pull open the veggie bin, you know, get out the beats, break them, clean them, cook them- Jen: No, I’m not. Dr. Mann: But if you do that ahead, and you have a little bowl or tupperware of roasted beets, you will eat them. Jen: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Mann: Vegetables are hard work. Jen: They are hard work and so is protein. So the other thing we’ve tried to bring to people’s attention is that carbs and fat are readily available to us in convenience form everywhere, so if you want to be eating a more balanced diet, focus your energy on getting protein and vegetables and fruit prepared and as convenient to you as the nuts and the seeds and the bread and you know all of that kind of thing, because they take a lot of prep work, right. So the other thing I do is I just throw some chicken breasts in a slow cooker on Sunday night and then I take it out and I shred it and I just have a little container of shredded chicken breast which I can throw in sandwiches or wraps or do you know what I mean? So- Dr. Mann: Yeah. Jen: So yeah, it’s little, little things like that have made the biggest difference in my life and in our Balance365ers as well. Dr. Mann: That’s great, that’s good, that’s just making it easier to do the healthy thing.  Jen: Just environment. Dr. Mann: Harder to do the unhealthy thing. Jen: Yeah, just acknowledging that we’re lazy. Annie: And that’s across the board, like, your research has shown that it’s across the board, like humans in general are lazy, it’s not like these people, like, you know it’s not just me, Jen and Lauren that don’t want to prep our veggies or whatever, it’s like this is human nature and so and I feel like that’s kind of refreshing to hear because it’s not kind of, it’s very refreshing to hear because again, so many people are blaming themselves for why they can’t follow the diet, why they can’t stick with the program, it’s like, look you’re just human, like, you’re asking yourself to change a lot of things at once, to do a lot of stuff that’s really not in your wheelhouse. And it’s normal if you struggle with that. Dr. Mann: And also, can I just add, because sometimes people are like, well, all those strategies you’re saying just sound like, you know, dieting tips. Jen: Yes, they do. Dr. Mann: I don’t really mean them to be dieting tips, I mean them to be, these are just little things that you can just kind of have as habits in your life that will just help you stay in that sort of the lower part of your set point. I’m not saying that by moving the cookies to higher shelf you’re going to lose a ton of weight. Jen: Or that you should never have cookies, right. It’s not about, yeah. Dr. Mann: Right, exactly I’m just saying these are just some things that help you to just kind of stay on an even keel or maybe just aim for that slightly lower part of your set range that you’re already within. Jen: There’s, I wanted to address that too, as well because I feel like there is, as far as environment, there is a lot of tips you can use and they can be used as tools or they can be used as weapons against you, right and so in diet culture these things are often used as weapons and it’s funny because I used to some of the tools I use today to stay healthy, balanced and at a leaner weight, I used to use when I was dieting trying to live a weight below what was healthy for me and I was going hungry all the time, so what would happen to me was I wouldn’t buy the cookies, I wouldn’t buy the ice cream. I didn’t want any of that in my house because my cravings were so strong because I was going hungry all the time, so when that stuff was occasionally brought in my house I would eat it all. I would go nutso on a pint of ice cream in a night or a gallon and so it’s kind of like talking in a nuanced way, right, to go like, “You can use these as tools or you can use them as weapons, it all depends on where you’re at and what’s going on inside your head.” Dr. Mann: That’s really true and that’s a really important point that when you deny yourself something, when you restrict certain categories of foods or certain foods it’s going to eventually backfire. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: It’s amazing how fast you start to want those things you restrict. I mean, we did a study like this, I think I talk about it in the book where we forbade people from eating a food that they didn’t even love, right, it was sort of in the middle for I can’t remember how long- Jen: 3 weeks I think. Dr. Mann: Yeah. Annie: Radishes. Jen: I feel like I just know your book. Annie: Radishes and chocolate for 3 weeks? Dr. Mann: I better know my details well, in any case, the point I was trying to make about that, the main point of that study just was that very quickly they started really wanting those things that they couldn’t have. So not worth it to deny yourself certain things and instead try to just eat those things in reasonable portions. So I cannot live without ice cream and there’s really no reason to do so but my ice cream trick, when you guys mentioned some of yours, I’ll add one more is I make my husband serve me because he will serve a reasonable portion and put it away and our freezer is crazy cold so it’s not even going to be easy to take more because it’s just, you know, he’ll wait and do what you need to do. So let people wait on you, folks. Annie: That’s just good life advice. Jen: Yes, the other one thing for your freezer- Lauren: I can get behind that. Jen: I bake for my kids for their school lunches and I keep it in the freezer so I, if I want banana chocolate chip muffin it’s totally fine but I have to think about that, right, I have to take it out and then I have to unthaw it in order for me to eat it where, you know, just talking about those barriers in environment, just putting a little bit of barrier between you and that thing causes you to pause and go “Do I really want this or is this just an impulse?” Dr. Mann: Exactly, you need that pause. My 14 year old son is obsessed with baking. Well, you know, classic pre-teen boy, you know, scrawny, looks like a paper clip, you know, no body fat at all. But he’s killing me there are constantly baking here and the good news is he’s obnoxious and doesn’t always let me have any because he wants to take it all the school because he brings it to a certain class, you know, there’s 24 kids in that class. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: Every recipe makes 24 so he often doesn’t let me have any, thank God, but a lot of the time he does and it’s like once or twice a week this is going on in my house. Jen: Yeah. Dr. Mann: That’s a lot of like baking. Jen: Extra baking. Dr. Mann: That’s a lot of baking. Jen: Yes. Annie: So, Dr. Mann, I know we’re approaching an hour, I feel like we could do this for the whole time though or a couple hours at least, just to kind of wrap up, all of your research and your experience, personal and professional, inside your book as we’ve shared so much already, you provide a lot of gold little nuggets as to how people can improve their health, reframe their mindsets, even thinking about food in terms of healthy and unhealthy, how to alter their habits to support sustainable weight loss if that’s what they’re after but really, you seem to boil it down to just, as Jen said, sensible no-fuss advice, like exercise regularly and create reasonable eating habits and that you believe that that will help you reach your goals with minimal effort, is that really it? Because if so, that super refreshing. Dr. Mann: That is it. But I will elaborate a little bit because here’s where we have to get our heads and our heads are not there yet but  where we need to get our heads is if we are exercising the recommended amount, which is 150 minutes per week if we are eating, you know, a reasonable number of servings of vegetables per day and if we’re keeping our stress level under control, not smoking, if we’re doing those things, whatever we weigh when we’re doing those things should be where we want to be. We need to define that weight as our perfect weight because that is what you weigh when you’re behaving in a healthy way. So, I don’t know, this comes up all the time with people. Everyone thinks “if I do the exercise I’m supposed to do I’ll get thin,” but that’s not true. Exercise doesn’t necessarily make you a lot thinner but it does make you healthier. What I keep pushing on people is “Behaving in healthy ways makes you healthier, even though it might not make you thinner or as much thinner as you want it to.” So whatever we weigh when we’re behaving in healthy ways we have got to find a way to be OK with that. Jen: Right, except you have a whole section on acceptance, right and let your, do what’s good for you and let your body be what it’s going to be and just accept this, like it’s actually so freeing. Dr. Mann: Yes, just if you keep the focus on health and not weight everything makes so much more sense. Jen: Yeah, I love that. Dr. Mann: You do these healthy behaviors, they make you healthier, but then again, maybe not thinner, maybe not as much thinner as you want. Annie: I wonder how many of our listeners minds are just like blowing right now hearing that. Like, behaving in a healthy way will make you healthier, it might not make you thinner but it will improve your health. Dr. Mann: Isn’t it crazy that that’s mind blowing?  I said that to some radio guy one time and he’s like “I don’t know, that’s kind of a hard sell.” Lauren: You know, well, it’s only a hard sell because you have, you know, diet companies telling you the opposite everywhere all day, every day. Dr. Mann: Seriously, you know, And because people don’t actually value their health the way they all say they do. Jen: Yeah, they value thinness. Dr. Mann: Yeah, if people truly valued health, that wouldn’t be a remarkable thing to say at all. Jen: We had a psychologist post in our group the other day she had read your book preparing for this podcast and she said “I’m a psychologist and I’m reading this book and I feel my resistance towards it, like, I feel it” and she, but you know, she’s acknowledging, like, “This is programming. This is diet culture,” so she was trying to tell everybody, like, “I am a professional and I am resisting this, like, I have a mental block there that I don’t want to hear it. I still want to believe there’s a magic pill out there” and so of course, the general population that isn’t even educated with psychology, you know, of course, there’s a massive block there, massive. Dr. Mann: And I see that and I see that in anonymous comments out there, the people who come up to me are like, “This is freeing, this changes everything, hallelujah” and the people who are like, “I can’t, no, I must believe that I can lose a ton of weight and keep it off.” Yeah, I don’t hear from those people I just hear mean comments. Jen: Right, but they just pursue people who that, whose ideas support their, you know, how they want to see the world right and you know what, honestly, when I embraced these ideals, it was, I went through a pretty big slump of emotion, like, it was like grief. I had to grieve and because it was, yeah, it was, it was an idea that I had based a lot of my life around and spent a lot of time energy and money and the more invested you’re into something, the more you resist that it doesn’t work and trying to convince different gurus or fitness professionals that have built their whole careers and social followings on selling thinness, trying to convince them of that will be even harder because they are so deeply invested in it. Dr. Mann: Oh yeah, they’re the worst. Jen: And so I think a grieving process is like pretty normal when you, like, you have the freedom but then it’s like, you know, you go through these different stages of, like, “Oh, well that sucks” or you feel somebody shame come up and your trigger, that’s kind of your trigger that typically will take you into dieting behaviors to feel like you’re actually in control of that but you’re not and you’re just realizing, “I am not in control” and that can be very depressing, right but but also very freeing on the other side once you fully accept that/ Dr. Mann: Yeah, again, we just have to remember the one thing that truly, truly matters is our health. Jen: Yes. Absolutely. Dr. Mann: You know, have someone close to you die too young and suddenly it becomes very, very real, you know, you have nothing without your health. Jen: Right. Dr. Mann: So keep that in mind as the goal. The goal is health. Not some number on the scale and they don’t measure health with that number on the scale. Jen: Right and and including psychological health in that because I have had people around me succumb to eating disorders and that’s a very real thing in our society and it has very, anorexia has very high mortality rates and so- Dr. Mann: The highest of any mental illness. Jen: Yes and so and it’s just a horrible life, right even if you don’t, even if it doesn’t lead to you passing away and dying, it’s a horrible place to be and it is not healthy and it’s, you know, this is very real as far as, you know, a lot of people think of unhealthy as, you know, very large and morbidly obese and eating and eating but there is the other end where there’s a lot of people succumbing to eating disorders as well. Dr. Mann: Yeah, it’s true. Annie: Dr. Mann, I cannot thank you enough. This is so much fun. Is there a place that people can connect with you? Do you hang out on, I already stalked you on Instagram it doesn’t look like you’re- Dr. Mann: I never post, I’m basically on Instagram to spy on my 14 year old. I don’t expect he’ll see this. Annie: Excellent. Are you on Facebook or your website? Where can people catch up with you or stay on top of what you’re working on? Dr. Mann: I guess I’m on Facebook or Twitter more but again, on Facebook I post but mostly political stuff, on Twitter I only lurk, I’m there,  if you want to find me, if you want to talk to me, tweet at me. Annie: OK. Jen: OK. Dr. Mann: Or do the same on Facebook. Annie: Awesome we’ll put that in the show notes so people can connect with you if they want to follow up with you but this was so fun. It was just like talking to a friend that knows a lot about nutrition. Dr. Mann: It sounds like you’re doing awesome stuff so I’m so glad you’re out there doing it. Annie: Yeah, we’re trying. Jen: Thank you. Lauren: Thank you. Annie: OK, we’ll talk soon ladies, thanks for joining us. Jen: Bye. Lauren: Alright, bye!   The post 53: Secrets from the Eating Lab: Dr. Traci Mann appeared first on Balance365.

In this episode, Jen, Annie and Lauren are joined by James Fell, the author of The Holy Shit Moment, a book that explores epiphanies and how behavior can change overnight. James shares his insights from his own radical behavior change grounded in a lightning bolt moment of permanent change, and talks about the science and stories behind these important moments. Tune in and learn how you can find your own shift, what drives lasting change and how everything can come together in an instant.   What you’ll hear in this episode: What James Fell’s epiphany was and how that changed his life How personal responsibility can be empowering Global versus focal change – what’s the difference Identity shifts and their impacts on relationships The model of personality and how it relates to change Vanity goals: do they work? Are holy S. moments always bad? Gradual vs. Immediate change What supports immediate change? How does gradual change work? Crystallisation of discontent defined The breaking point and change The quest for greatness as an impetus for change Does sucking it up every work? Building habits and enjoyment over time Weighing the pros and cons of action and committing even when it’s unpleasant Acting like a tortoise but thinking like a hare – what does that look like? Post diet rebound, pendulum swings and coming back to centre Resources: Good To Great by Jim Collins The Holy Shit Moment by James Fell Lose It Right by James Fell Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Today’s long awaited guest has been a longtime friend and supporter to Balance365 and whenever we ask our community which guest we should have on our show his name always comes up. You might know him as the man behind Body for Wife but we can’t get enough of his straight shooter honest approach to behavior change. Joining us today is the one and only James Fell. James is a highly regarded science based motivator for lasting life change. James recently launched his second book and on today’s episode he shares with us how love and a Joan Baez as quote changed his life forever, how getting clearing your values can make change feel easier and why relying on willpower is a bad idea. We had so much fun recording this episode with James and we know you’re going to love it too, enjoy. Jen and Lauren, we have been waiting for a really, really long time for this podcast episode and I know our community members have been too. Are you ready for this Lauren? Lauren: So ready. We had to reschedule. Annie: Jen, are you? Jen: Yes I’m ready. Annie: Sorry, Lauren, what was that?  I’m so excited I just cut you off. Lauren: I was going to say, we had to reschedule so I’ve been waiting for like an extra week. Annie: I know and every time we ask our community insider Facebook group Healthy Habits Happy Moms who we should have on as a guest, notoriously this man’s name keeps coming up. It is James Fell. Welcome to the show, how are you? James; I kind of feel like a rock star right now after that intro. Annie: You kind of are a rock star. James: Yeah, well, tell my kids that one. Jen: We also get a lot of referrals from you so thank you. James: Oh you’re very welcome, you know- Jen: A ton of women that said they found us  through you. James: We have like minded followers I would say. Annie: Yes. We, James and Healthy Habits Happy Mom’s which is what Balance365 was before it became Balance365 go way back so we’ve been pals for a while and Jen and James, you guys met, I think before James and I met, how did you two meet? Jen: In Vancouver. Oh, like, we just met online, small world as we talked about, when you are not shucking B.S. to people and then we met up in Vancouver and we had coffee which was awesome. James: Yeah, that’s right, I was in Vancouver for a conference. So we got to do the, you know, going from being internet friends to real life friends which is always exciting when that happens, so high five! Annie: Yeah and I met James when I went to the fitness summit in Kansas City many years ago, I mean, gosh, that was probably 3 or 4 years ago I suppose but it was, like, one of those whispers in the lobby like, “That’s James Fell.” James: Don’t make it weird, Annie. Annie: That’s what the women were whispering in my ear and I’m like “Oh, OK, OK.” It was fun to have a couple of drinks and since then our relationship with our company and you have fostered and we are excited to bring you on because you have a new book coming out. This is actually your second book, second to Lose It Right, is that correct? James: That’s correct!   Annie: It comes out January 2nd and I told- James: January 22nd. Annie: Oh, sorry, January 22nd and I told you before we started this that we have labeled our podcast as clean, which means it doesn’t have any explicit lyrics and the title of this book is called the Holy S. Moment and that’s what we’re going to call it for this podcast because we know we have people listening with little ears within earshot but you can probably imagine what the title of that book is and I just have to say it’s not actually out in print yet, is it? James: No, no, we’re, so January 22nd, so as of recording right now we’re 6 days away, so it depends on when you publish this. Annie: So by the time it’s released, this episode is released they’ll be able to find it, where can they find it? James: Anywhere, so it’s being published by St Martin’s Press in the United States and Canada and if you have any listeners in the U.K. Harper Collins is the publisher there so this is this is my 1st international released book. My 1st book Lose It Right was just published in Canada. Annie: That’s exciting, do you feel good about it? James: Oh yeah, I’m really stoked. So yeah, they can find it in any bookstore, any platform, there’s an audio recording too so if people don’t hate my voice, I’m the one that did the narration for the audio. Annie: I love it when authors do that. Jen: I do too. You really feel connected to that author. James: Yeah, I love it too because they paid me to do it. Annie: Winning and the cover of the book, unless it’s changed, because you were kind enough to share the digital format with us, the cover has a lightning bolt on it, right? James: Yes, it does. Annie:  And I don’t know if you can see that but I’ve got a big old tattoo on my trap so, you know, I feel like it was clearly, this was a book that was meant to be in my house. James: Annie Brees, me and Harry Potter are all big on lightning. Annie: Except I’ve never seen Harry Potter, I’ve never read Harry Potter- Lauren: What? Annie:  I know nothing about. I know. James: OK, you just lost some fans. Lauren: I’m sorry. I’m not cool. Annie: Okay, I just wanted to get this out too because on page 6 it just says “hi mom” and I was like- Jen: Oh, that is so sweet. Annie: So you definitely earn some bonus points but what I want to talk about is, if you know us, you know that the 3 of us are all about slow and sustainable change but you actually wrote this book because you found yourself as a coach encouraging slow and steady change but that actually hadn’t reflected your experience in how you forever changed your life. Would you mind sharing the story about the moment and the quote that you think shifted for you? James: Yeah, so before I get into that briefly, like, when it comes to say health and fitness, I don’t mean, you know, jump into your first session with Attila the trainer and go hard core and wreck your self on day one. When it comes to the the change of changing one’s body, you still need to be rational and don’t destroy yourself but the change that I’m talking about is the way that you’re motivated, that quite often we talk about motivation as a form of baby steps, being a tortoise not a hare as well, you slowly, step by step drag, yourself over a motivational tipping point developing, you know, habits that become sticky and the reality is that there’s a lot of people that don’t do it that way. They go from 0 to 100 miles an hour in a moment and they stay that way because of some transformative life changing event that just wakes up a part of their brain where they achieve a new purpose in life that endlessly and vigorously drives them forward. So that’s what the book is about is the science of that event and so there’s the, you know, all the scientific aspect but there’s also a lot of anecdotal stories that run the gamut of, you know, relationships and career change and battling addiction but also, yes, there are some weight loss stories in there as well but to my personal, the first big transformative experience for me happened when I was about 22 years old and I was in university and I’d actually gotten a letter that said, this isn’t verbatim but it boils down to “Your grades suck, we’re kicking you out” and I was, you know, I was in debt, you know, the credit card companies were calling. And I wasn’t looking after my health, I was drinking too much and and I was in a state of despair and part of that had to do with my girlfriend was that she was a very driven woman, straight A student, destined for med school and I knew that if I got kicked out of school and I do not say this to ever speak ill of her but I knew if I got kicked out of school that it was going to be the beginning of the end, that, you know, she wasn’t going to stay with a guy that was a drunken dropout who was letting his health go to hell and so I was, I was really kind of freaked out about what am I going to do and so I’m reading the university newspaper and there was this section that’s like there classified ads called 3 lines free and it’s, you know, a mixed bag of things from quotes and witticisms and proclamations of undying love or temporary lust or whatever and there was a quote in there from of all people Joan Baez the folk singer and the quote read “Action is the antidote to despair.” And I read that and it didn’t hit me immediately but it’s the 1st thing was I realize that, you know what, all these problems that I have can be fixed via action. If I get down to get to work I can fix this stuff and that was the first little wake up and then the next part that hit me bigger was the realization that I had been pretty lazy my entire life. I’ve been skating turned on cruise control, not really putting much effort into anything, these problems that I was experiencing were of my own doing. You people know me that I’m not one of those guys that say “Oh, just suck it up” and you know, I realize that there are people that, you know, life is garbage sandwich and it’s not their own doing but my this was my fault. I had dug this hole myself and only I had the ability to dig my way out and and so there was that realization that I’ve been really lazy and I was actually putting effort into being lazy by, you know, the mental gymnastics it took to, you know, shirk my responsibilities each day and that was when my brain woke up in an instant where I said, “If I just put effort in a positive way, if I just got down and started working, I could fix all this” and that’s the way that these life changing epiphanies work is that they are there a big picture concept, they’re fuzzy, they’re not usually very concrete. The concrete action plan comes afterward, after you have the event but the event happened was like, “If I just work I’ll fix everything” and in that moment I experienced what’s known in Psychology of behavior change circles as dramatic relief, where suddenly you see the light at the end of the tunnel, all the problems haven’t gone anywhere, still there but you know you’re going to fix them and you know that the light is there, you can see it and you’re going to race toward it and everything’s going to be OK. And from that moment, in that instant, I was a changed man. Jen: Wow. James: I got 2 master’s degrees. I didn’t flunk out, I went on and got 2 master’s degrees, oh and that woman, the girlfriend, we’ve been together for almost 30 years now and so yeah, I told you she was the one and you know, got in shape, got out of debt all that good stuff, I don’t brag. Annie: I don’t want to spoil, I didn’t want to spoil it for everyone but when I was reading this part about your, like, this moment that you were having reading that quote I was like “Did he do it?” and he did! And that’s, oh my gosh, that’s so sweet. But I love that realization that you said, I was in this position because I had put myself there and while that can maybe feel a little like, “I did this to myself” it can also feel like that “I can get myself out” like the flip side of that coin is, “Yeah, I put myself here but also I can get myself out” and that’s really like encouraging and empowering I think. Jen: I got goosebumps and I don’t know if you can see that on camera but my hair is standing on end. So I see that shift with some of our Balance365 members sometimes and I agree some people get a garbage sandwich but it is so important to reflect on our contribution to where we’re at in life. I believe that wholeheartedly that it is so important to reflect on that. There are obviously things that were out of your control but there are also things that you have done and you know, for this is a very complex topic but especially, you know, just the different members we have in the different lives they come from but I feel like that can be such a light bulb or that lightning bolt they need to go, you know, maybe they can’t change everything about their life but maybe they have more control than they have let themselves believe, leading out to that moment. James:  And the thing is that there’s focal changes and then there’s global changes, what I experienced was largely a global change, that I just decided that it wasn’t that I was going to get in shape or that I was going to stop flunking out of school, I was going to fix everything and so that was a global change. Other people had these focal changes, like the example in chapter one of Chuck Gross, who had started with his weight because he weighed over 400 pounds and that was a life changing epiphany after having struggled and tried and failed to lose weight many times, he had this transformative experience and that he knew it was going to work and the direct quote from Chuck was “I didn’t have to struggle with my motivation. It came built in.” And he lost over 200 pounds and has kept it off for more than a decade but the interesting thing there is that these experiences often have cascading effects where afterwards, he ended up, he went back to school and he was a straight A student, he went through a personality shift where he went from very introverted to, you know, more confident and more extroverted, it was better for his relationship and it just had a lot of other positive impacts throughout his life. Jen: What about, something on the other end of the scale, I was listening to a podcast the other day with a therapist and she was talking about the high failure rate of relationships after somebody has weight loss surgery and they didn’t dig into that but it relates back to what we’re trying but here is because a lot of people, it’s not about the weight loss, it’s about the identity change that they have because of that huge event and I can also see it going the other way, that, I mean, this happens all the time in relationships, I guess, you have people go through identity shifts throughout their life and it can also affect your relationship negatively. And so I can see it also, you know, not that anyone should stop themselves from changing but it’s just to show this is radical, right, it’s radical what happens to people and this cascading effect that you’re talking about, it can affect, we have in Balance365 these women that go on, like, one woman has founded a feminist nonprofit in Vancouver and is building this huge community and she talks about how it was Balance365 that just, it just was that moment, right, everything changed from there and it’s just interesting to see and we’ve had women applying for jobs they didn’t think they were qualified for and we’ve had women leave their husbands, we’ve had, you know, it’s just that radical personal growth shift that just, yeah, cascades everywhere. James:  Well the research you’re talking about with weight loss surgery, of which I am very supportive, I’ve written an article about how I think that if people that think that that is the right decision for them I’m the last person that would ever shame someone for doing so because the research shows that it can be quite effective but I’m not aware of and I’m not denying it, I’m just saying that I can’t speak to that. Jen: Right. James: However, in these instances I didn’t interview anyone for the book that had undergone very bariatric surgery but there were a few people that had experienced significant weight loss and as well as gone through many other changes and the one theme that I noticed is that what we’re talking about is, yes, there’s an identity shift, yes, there’s a value shift, that’s what makes it effortless. There’s the whole, it refers to Roky, social psychologist Milton Roky teaches model of personality which is, like, the whole, you know, ogres are like onions. Well, people are like onions, too. We’ve got our actions and behaviors at the extra layer which is, if you focus just on changing behavior, that’s why you need to be slow and steady because you’re in conflict with those more internal layers of your values and your identity, whereas if you go through an identity shift and a shift in values, the outer layers just sync up effortlessly which is what happened with Chuck Gross. He went through a rapid identity and values shift which just brought his actions and behaviors into line immediately. But so here’s the thing that, yes, this entire book is about a shift in identity and values which sounds scary. So this is anecdotes, not data but the examples in the book, many of these people were in relationships when they went through this dramatic shift, those relationships got better. Jen: In the examples in your book. James: And I can posit a hypothesis as to why that happens, which is that it’s actually and there’s even some philosophy in there and psychology is that this is not a false construct that you’re creating. When you go through something like this, it’s more like the current identity that you’re letting reign is the fake one, that’s the one that is, you feel that you need to survive each day because of societal pressures and pressures of, you know, maybe toxic people in your life or your job or whatever else is going on that this is the thing that, you know, it can be referred to as the despised self that you’re letting rule your life and then all of a sudden, the true self that, this is the person you’ve been yearning to be your entire life, is suddenly let loose. It’s not invented out of thin air, it was there deep down and it was like every little movie that you watched where there was a hero that did something that impressed you or a story that you read that you say “I wish I could be that brave” or all these little things are tiny bits of data that get lodged in your unconscious that that have the ability to coalesce in a profound way in a moment. So when you go through this type of identity change, this is not slow and steady, it’s such a dramatic emotional event that it’s something where it’s unleashed, it’s like, it’s like a volcano where the magma has been bubbling under the surface, building for years and then all of sudden kerblewy, it explodes.   That’s why it’s a, it’s a holy s. moment because you have this sudden realisation and because and when we look at our relationships with other people that when you fall in love with someone, you have a tendency to idealize them and you’re falling in love with what you, the vision you have of them as their best self. You see, you know, they’re not always that way but when you see the best in them, you have a tendency to overlook the bad parts the parts that annoy you, hopefully. I know my wife does it with me all the time. Then when that real true best self comes to the surface and is allowed to let reign, it’s, like, yeah, the other member of that relationship is very welcoming of that, so I’m not saying it’s a guarantee, I’m not saying it’s going to work that way every time but it sounds good, they said. Jen:  James, what do you think of this, all of this in terms of dieting. So in our community, really, what we have founded everything on is that dieting does not work and a lot, I mean, it doesn’t work for the majority of people and what happens with women is that dieting becomes a part of our identity over time, so you are or losing weight or maybe you’ll tell me, I’m not using the correct scientific terms for all of this but it may feel like part of our identity. It is so ingrained in us to be basically defining our self-worth based on our ability to lose weight or at least trying to lose weight makes us feel worthy and we get, you know, many pats on the head for it as women when we’re doing that. I would say men probably experience that as well and so feel like when women join Balance365, when we help give them, you know, turn the light on a little bit and they join Balance365 and they realize dieting doesn’t work, and for some of them it happens like in “Zing! This does not work. This I have been doing for 25 years does not work” or sometimes it happens slowly, it’s like, “OK, maybe it doesn’t work” but then they, like, come back, you know, and then maybe they pull back from us a little and go, “Well, I’m just going to try one more diet, just to double check” and then would you say that’s a change in identity happening? James: Absolutely and I think you really nailed it, that a lot of people, so that’s that is, sort of a despised self identity that is being allowed to flourish because their values are the approval of other people or living up to some toxic ideal that you see in an air brushed model on a cover of a magazine and looking at food as something that, you know, what they consume is something that they need to suffer through and this is, the thing about these type of events is the whole goal is to remove suffering, when you focus strictly on behavior change, that’s why the tortoise’s preached over the hare because if you change too much all at once, the amount of suffering you experience is quite high because it’s at odds with the more internal layers. And that’s why they say baby steps is because you’re trying to minimize the discomfort until it gets to the point where you just kind of get used to it and you come to tolerate it and yeah, you know those things can work but we all know that the failure rates are pretty high and what can be a much more positive shift in identity is having self compassion, realizing that you are a fallible human being and that food is something that is supposed to be enjoyable and nourishing and necessary for life and that you can stop caring so much about what other people think and worrying more about the way that you, what you think about yourself. And how you feel about the way you look in the mirror and how you feel physically, like, when you wake up each morning and you know hopefully bounce out of bed and then looking at food as something that nourishes you and because you have compassion for yourself that you want to feed yourself in a healthy and nourishing way and that you want to exercise because it’s good for you and it’s enjoyable and it’s OK to have some vanity goals but if vanity is your overrunning motivator I’ve never seen that work out well. Yeah, you know, for many years I had a shirtless photo of me on my website. And you know, I’m wearing the short sleeved t-shirt- Jen: Snug fit. James: And I think it’s OK to have some of those motivations but you also need to think about the, you know, I’m never going to be as buff as the next guy, I’m never going to be as ripped as the next guy but that’s OK because my wife likes the way I look, I like the way I look and I like running, I like lifting weights, I like riding my bike, I like fueling appropriately, I like the way I feel when I eat mostly healthy food, I like the way I feel when I don’t drink very much, all those types of things, that’s part of my identity, that just being kind of Zen about this whole thing. You know, just do the best you can, enjoy your life, enjoy your food, enjoy your exercise, that’s identity and values right there and that’s a positive one as opposed to all “Oh my God, I’ve got this flab from Christmas” which I totally do and you know, that’s a positive shift that people can make because they hear me talking about it, they hear other people talking about it, they read it and this type of information percolates in your brain and maybe one day it bursts through the surface and you say, “That’s who I am.” Lauren: Can I ask a question before we kind of move on or switch gears? When you were telling your story, I kind of had this realization that I listen to a lot of podcasts and there’s always people, you know, being interviewed and telling their stories and it’s usually someone who has accomplished something or done something and a lot of times you’ll hear them have that Holy S. Moment, you know, whether it’s, you know, they had a big realization or whatever and I am realizing that a lot of times, it’s kind of like they’re, it’s a bad moment, right, like, they’re kind of in a low place when they have that moment, is that and I know you have a lot of examples in the book, is that true for all of them or is there another way you can kind of come to that moment? James: It’s common but it’s not the law so, you know, in my example when I talked about the one when I was flunking out of school, yeah, the whole action is the antidote to despair quote, I was in a state of despair so that’s one of the reasons why it really spoke to me. Despair is not same thing as depression, just so we’re clear. And but and so what happens with a lot of people, one example is called crystallisation of discontent which is a psychological term which refers to discontent is, you know, say there’s one problem that’s bugging you and it’s not that big of a deal by itself you’re like, “Yeah, whatever, I can live with that. Crystallization is when you look at all the other little problems and the whole is greater than the sum of it’s parts where they suddenly crystallize all together and you reach a point where you’re like “OK enough of this, you know, we’ve got to go in a new direction because this is just not working for me anymore.” So that’s an important shift people can make. Then going deeper, we also have the breaking point, which we see quite often with addiction where people are in a horrible state and they realize that they just can’t do it that way anymore and they’ve got to go in a different direction and it is very common for people battling addiction where one day they just “No, this is it, never again” and they’re done and they are done so that’s another way but on the other end of the spectrum, we also have the good to great mentality which is and I’m stealing that from a book of the same name by Jim Collins and and the book is actually about corporate change where corporations want to go from being good at something to being great but it actually, there’s a lot of good stuff in that book that applies to people as well and what it is is someone, you know, life is pretty peachy, things are going along OK, you know, it could be better but then suddenly a quest enters your mind, like, “I gotta do this” where where it’s not like you want to be great for greatness sake, you have discovered something that makes you want to try to create it. And you know, for me people who have that big life changing event often have more later on clarifying epiphanies and for me it was being a writer that I had reached the age of 40 and I had an MBA, I had a successful business career and I didn’t hate my job but I did not love it and I knew that writing was something that I love to do and I realized life was too short to spend the majority of my waking hours doing something that I wasn’t really passionate about and I was going to give it my very best effort in order to make a career out of this and so that was a, life was good and then I became a writer and it became great. Maybe not quite financially great right away. But trust me, you know, I just turned 50 last year and my forties were awesome because I decided to become a writer and my fifties are looking to be even better. Lauren: Right, that’s good to know, you know, you can have these epiphanies without being at like rock bottom. Annie: I would just like to say that James pretty much just described my last year of therapy in like 15 seconds. Because we actually have a section of our program called The Story of You which is where we help members get clear on their values and I think Old Annie, Annie 2 years ago would have just poo-pooed that, like, “Why does this even matter, I just want to lose weight, I just want to build muscle, I just want to, you know, run this or lift this or whatever, like, I want to look a certain way or I want to feel a certain way, why does my values even matter?” and you wrote in a blog post that you encourage people to spend less time worrying about the exertion of will and engaging in continual resistance and suffering and forcing yourself to do what you really would rather not and spend some quality time on examining who you really are deep down and you encourage people to, like, really look at their values, like, what really matters to you and you’ve found in your book evidence that supports that that will help, as you said with that one gentleman that he didn’t have to rely on willpower because this is just what he wanted, like this is was him. This is what he wanted and so we hear it from a lot of women that they feel like they need more willpower and more self control and you’ve dug into self self control, self love and willpower in your book and on your blog post and as you know, the fitness industry loves this like “No excuses, just shut up and do it, grind through it.” So after looking at your work in the book and knowing you and knowing your personal and professional experience, what do you think about that? I mean do you want to expand on that barfy noise? James: There was a lot of research in the book debunking the whole myth of willpower  and seeing it as a limited resource that you can strengthen and you just gotta suck it up, we know it doesn’t work, people have been told to suck it up forever, there’s research showing that the efforts to to strengthen willpower are futile. There’s more research in the book that people who do use what they call grit, that you just tough it out no matter what even though you hate what you’re doing, it’s actually physically damaging, it has negative cardio metabolic effects as well as negative effects on I think the telemores which has to do with your life expectancy and so yeah, it’s and it’s just not fun. Willpower and grit and powering through all imply suffering and I just, we don’t want to suffer, we seek to avoid it. Our entire evolution as a species has been about trying to find ways to make things more comfortable for us so instead a person’s ability to do things, like, I will get up and put on a ridiculous amount of layers of clothes to go out for a 6 mile run in minus 30 and it’s not because, you know, I don’t hate doing it, I actually feel a sense of accomplishment, like, it’s kind of cool for me knowing, “Hey, I’m out doing something that other people think is crazy” and so that’s one of the things that motivates me to do it is that it’s, you know, it’s just I get a bit of a an excitement out of it even though, yes, it’s really cold out there and I’m kind of slow because I’m trudging through snow but it’s just, it’s this neat little sense of accomplishment and also a shower after a run at minus 30 feels really, really good. Jen: And I’m over here like, “No way.'” It brings me zero joy to do something like that. James: So that’s not, I’m not suffering. Jen: Right. James: All that being said and I’m really hoping this book takes off because if it does, not only will I feel validated which I kind of need, then I want to write a sequel about what happens after the holy S. Moment and you know, how do you keep snowballing the success from it and I think that doesn’t rule out discipline, so discipline is different from willpower. Discipline is about things, like, you know, getting, formulating routines that you stick to even though you don’t want to and yes, there are days that I don’t feel like running but you know, I just, you know, I figure I’m still a runner, that’s who I am and I don’t always succeed but there other times when I don’t want to but I’m going to do it anyway and you make yourself do it and then you get out there and yeah, maybe the first kilometer and sorry for the Americans that are listening, the first kilometers kind of drag but then you get into it and after it’s like, “Yeah, I’m really glad I did that” so there’s it’s not like everything is a joyous “Oh yeah, I can’t wait to do this.” But it’s just, it’s because it’s who you are, it’s not that big of a deal. Jen: Annie just talked about this in a workshop last night that we did for our members around exercise, you know, it’s like we do encourage people to find exercise they enjoy or can tolerate and Annie just said “Look, it’s not always going to be super fun, you’re not always going to be like I can’t wait to get to the gym but even if you can tolerate that exercise and afterwards feel accomplished and glad you went” Annie:  Then, yeah, there’s like this like acclimating period for a lot of people that aren’t super jazzed about exercise or movement that it’s like they kind of just have to get over that hump of maybe they’re a little bit sore or they’re getting into a new routine, they’re like, I think of it as like snowplows, you know, like or you’re going through a gravel road, like the first time you go through like fresh gravel it’s like a little bit wonky and then you keep going through and you keep, like, grinding those, like, pathways and-“ James: Grind isn’t a good word to  use, we don’t want to be in a rut. Lauren: No. Annie: But eventually, the pathway is a little bit smoother and you have less resistance but initially, when you’re getting going or maybe you’re trying something new, you’re learning a new skill, it’s not all fun and there’s certainly days where you’re just tired and you just don’t want to do it for whatever reason. James: And sometimes you do and that’s great and other times you don’t, you know, don’t beat yourself up over it because you know, tomorrow’s another day and one of the things that I want to be clear about is that, you know, not throw out the tortoise approach to this because if you think about motivation as, like, a mountain and at the base of the mountain that is 0 motivation to do the thing. And then the peak of the mountain is absolute 100 percent motivation to do everything associated with this goal with inspired vigor. Well, if you’re down at the base of the mountain, you don’t just hang out there and wait for sudden inspiration to arrive and Star Trek transporter your butt all the way up to the top. That can happen, sometimes it does, that’s what happened with Chuck but it doesn’t always work. You increase your odds of success if you start to hike awhile and you do those baby steps, because what it does is that it opens up new experiences to you. It gets you thinking because this is something that happens in the brain and if you are having these new experiences and starting to think about this and examining yourself and how you feel about it and looking at your, this is an emotional experience and that’s what happened for me is I talked about the, you know, the change in school and the change and you know, getting out of debt, all that kind of stuff. I didn’t get in shape right away, that came 2 or 3 years later when I finished my undergraduate degree, stuff was really busy with school and I was really busy with working to pay off my debts and those kind of things and I didn’t do anything about my body because I felt like I didn’t have time and then as soon as I finished my degree I looked in the mirror and said “Wow, I got kind of heavy. Maybe I should do some about that.” That became my next mission, I’d learned how to work hard but it doesn’t mean that I liked it. I started going to the gym and I did not like it one bit and it was after about 2 months that I was, you know, just forcing myself to go because I knew that this was something that I had to do and I was powering through on that grit and that willpower and I came close to quitting so many times and I felt like I was losing no weight whatsoever and then, so I was doing that that slow hike up the mountain of motivation and then one day I’m walking out of the gym after a couple months and the person at the front desk said “Did you have a good workout?” and I stopped and I thought about that for a moment and I said to myself, “Well, it didn’t totally suck” and I thought “It used to totally suck” and hopefully we can say suck on your podcast. Jen: Yes. Annie: Yes. James: OK, so it went from totally sucking to not totally sucking and I thought, well, if I could evolve from it toward it not sucking then one day I could learn to love it and in that moment, I wouldn’t say that I transformed into loving it but I did make a life altering decision that said “OK. One day I can learn how to love that” so therefore, I’m going to keep doing it until I die and that was 25 years ago still going so, go me! Jen: There are a lot of aspects that suck about running a business, it’s coming together but ultimately when you’re, you know, values, you know wake up in the morning and being safe, having financial autonomy is so so important to me, I will, we will show up and we will do those sucky things because ultimately our value of having financial autonomy overrides the pain of doing those sucky things. James: Yeah and it’s, you know, the alternative is is worse, right. Jen: Right, is way worse, yes. Annie: I think that that’s an important point that I hope our listeners grab, especially, you know, I’m talking about exercise because I’m a trainer but so often people think that they love something so then they’ll do it and that’s how you do more things, right, you have to love it first but like you just described, you can actually do something, get a little bit better at it and that cultivates a sense of love or enjoyment, so you can, in essence, learn to love something, like, you learn to love exercise and I think that that’s what so many women who don’t naturally love exercise like I do, I get it Jen and Lauren have expressed that they don’t share their passion for exercise like I do all the time. But that that doesn’t mean that they’re just out of luck. James: And for the analogy that I would use to describe it is that when you take this approach hiking up that mountain and then waiting for sudden inspiration to move you much further up the mountain, you know, dramatically increase your motivation all of a sudden, I refer to it as acting like a tortoise but thinking like a hare and so people need to be receptive to the possibility of this sudden gaining motivation and if they’re more receptive to it, if they’re more mindful of it happening, it dramatically increases the likelihood of it taking place. Annie: I like that, that’s really good. Jen: One of our members, her husband’s in the Army and she had this really good saying on one of our podcasts around motivation and behavior change and self-awareness, I guess, sometimes you need to know when to advance and when you just need to hold the line and I feel like that was a real, like, that’s kind of the hare and the tortoise thing, right, like you just, sometimes you have an opportunity in your life to advance and you need to take it. Motivation isn’t bad, it’s just knowing, yeah. James: Something interesting happened with me, so I was talking about how new experiences and an openness to new ideas that wake up a part of your brain that wouldn’t have happened if you hadn’t gone out and tried that thing, that’s what absolutely happened to me with running. So when I decided to take up running, so I’d lost a fair bit of weight with weight lifting and dietary changes and then I decided, well, I want to lose more and this was before Facebook, so I actually knew that that running was good for weight loss, that it could work because I hadn’t bought into all the fit pros saying “No, cardio makes you fat.” So I decided that for me that running would be a good choice and that it would also be not just good for weight loss but just good for my health, it’s good for organ health and all that kind of stuff and so I decided to start doing it and I was terrible at it and it was painful but I just started it, really short distances and gradually built myself up and I was just thinking about the outcome, like, this is good for losing weight, this is good for my health, that’s why I’m doing it and something completely unexpected happened was that that being a writer and being a person that likes to create stories and tell himself stories is that became the most creative part of my day was when I go for a run my best ideas come to me, either when I’m running or going for a bike ride and I just love the free association that I get to do. I’m away from technology, you know, I don’t have my phone with me or anything like that and it gives me that time alone in my head that, you know, that I just didn’t realize how much I craved that. And it makes such a big difference to me that that was really what I fell in love with, that if I hadn’t actually tried running I never would have known that that was the thing that I needed. Annie: Yeah, that’s really pretty, that’s a beautiful story. Lauren: That’s really pretty. Jen: James, can I get your take on another behavior we see quite often? James; Sure. Jen: So what happens very often in our community when women have the epiphany that diets don’t work and they’ve been living for years and years under a very restrictive way of living, they have their pendulum swing out the other way so many of our members talk about, after they join Balance365 they overeat, go swing into this period of eating all the things that they have denied themselves for so many years and that usually comes with weight gain and a lot of them say it became a necessary part of the process for them in order to have their pendulum swing back to center and be able to be more objective and balanced in their approach. What is your, do you think it’s necessary and or do you, is there any science or anything that you know of to explain that or what’s your take on it? James: So, I mean, I, the first caveat is that I’m not actually a psychologist. Jen: Right. James: I interviewed a whole bunch of psychologists for the book and we didn’t specifically get into that type of stuff. I would say that if you are hearing a lot of people saying that that was necessary for them and that it worked, then it sounds like there’s got to be something to it. For me, like I always would like to say err on the side of caution a little bit but you’ve got to do what you gotta do. Jen: Right. James: If you have been punishing yourself this much for so long and you reach this breaking point and you just got to go in another direction where you’re like “OK, I’m sorry but this is, I just need a break” and that what happens then, then that makes sense to me but at the same time, you need to keep something in the back your mind that says “This is temporary, that this is a reset” because you don’t want to go off the rails, right? You don’t you don’t want to never stop because and it’s not about shaming people for their body weight but just being concerned for their health and you being concerned about your own health and how you’re feeling and that as long as you realize that this is a temporary reset and that it’s part of finding a mentally and physically healthier way to move forward it sounds OK to me but- Jen: Right. James:  Just realize, OK, how far does that pendulum need to swing the other way before it comes back and don’t go beyond what’s necessary? So just little bit of caution. Jen: We have to have these come to Jesus talks with our members often on how far that pendulum has swung out and how far, how long they’re willing to stay there because in the end, a lot of women feel they came from a space where they were controlled by the diet industry saying- James: Oh yeah. Jen: Right, but then they’re screaming out into this other space where I’m like “But you’re still not really free, like you’re still not making free will choices if you can’t get your pendulum to come back to center.” James:  Exactly- Jen: You’re just in a rebound state. James:  You let the food hedonism rule instead. Jen: Right. James: You go from restriction ruling the life on one hand to highly palatable food ruling it on the other hand. Jen: Right. James: So you’re still, like you said, you nailed it, you’re still not really free, so be careful how far you let it swing- Jen: Right. James:  Consider it a bit of a mental reset that it’s almost like a statement that you’re making- Jen: Exactly. James: A rejection of this toxic diet mentality where OK, and then you make your point, “Forget you diets.” And then you come back to what you really feel is going to be both physically and psychologically nourishing for you. Jen:  Right, exactly. Annie: James, I know you have to get going because you have more interviews, you are just an in demand man. The first time we tried to schedule this episode you were just coming off of another interview and it was right before another one and everyone wants to talk to you, so I’m so thankful that you gave us some of your time. I know our community is just going to really enjoy this episode and I bet they cannot wait to get their hands on your new book which comes out the 22nd of January, so by time this should be available. James: Yes, indeed. Annie: And where, I know they already know where to find you but if they’re new to you, where are you hanging out online, where is the best way to connect to you? James: So if they want to find a book probably easiest place is well, they can either walk into a bookstore or go to bodyforwife.com and there’s a book tab that has links to every possible platform they can want. I think I mentioned that I did the narration for it so they can also get the audio if they want to do it that way. We have a lot of fun on my Facebook page, really good crowd there. Jen: Oh yes. James: It’s, I think we’re over two thirds women on the page and they’re very accepting, very feminist environment, sometimes some very foolish men show up and get their butts handed to them righteously and that’s an awesome thing to witness. Annie: You’ve had some threads that are like “Get your popcorn ready” sort of thing. Jen: You know, I don’t even say a word, I just read through them and I’m like, “Whoah!” James: Yeah, well and the thing is that people like the smack down because it serves as a lesson to other people and I learn things by, because there are so many really intelligent women on that page that, you know, people say “Oh, you know, you really get this whole kind of feminism thing” and it was like “Well, it’s only because I’ve been reading comments on my Facebook page from awesome women who know this stuff really well” and so yeah, that’s Facebook.com/bodyforwife, Twitter, Twitter sucks. I’m on Twitter let’s stick- Jen: What about Instagram? James: I’m not on Instagram, I don’t take good selfies. So Twitter is Twitter.com/bodyforwife as well. Annie: Awesome, well James, thank you so much, I cannot appreciate you enough, I’m really excited for everyone to check out this book and we’ll hope to have you back soon, OK? James: I’d love to and in closing, the one thing I will say to everyone that’s listening, that when it comes to these types of life changing epiphanies, the most important thing is to understand these things happen all the time and it is really important to believe that it’s something that can happen for you because that’s what opens yourself up to actually experiencing it. Annie: Awesome, thank you so much. James: Thank you. Annie: We’ll talk to you later. James: Bye. Lauren: Bye. Annie: Bye.     The post 51: James Fell: Epiphanies and Life Change appeared first on Balance365.

Can you love your body and still want to change it? The answer to this question depends greatly on who you ask. Some people in the body-positive camp think that weight loss and self-love can’t co-exist, while the diet and fitness industry encourages self-hatred. Does the truth lie somewhere in the messy middle? Tune in for Jen, Annie and Lauren’s discussion on the topic.   What you’ll hear in this episode: Has the body positivity pendulum swung too far? Change as a natural consequence of habits and behaviors Mindset blocks and change What research says about how much control you have over your body Altering appearance for self-expression Examining motivations for changes Being realistic about timing of changes Is there way too much overthinking going on? Mothering yourself Identifying when you need self-compassion and when you need tough love The answer to the question of the day!   Resources: Secrets From The Eating Lab Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Can self-love and a desire to change your physical being co-exist or are they a contradiction of one another? The answer to that question is debatable depending on who you’re asking. On one hand of the body positive camp say body love and weight loss can not co-mingle while it seems as if the rest of the diet industry requires a certain amount of body dissatisfaction as a prerequisite to change. There is no doubt in our minds that the push for body acceptance of all shapes and sizes is a much needed message but what about those individuals who want self-acceptance and still desire to change their bodies?This is a quite complex and messy topic and on today’s episode Jen, Lauren and I share Balance365’s stance on how you can strive for change that’s rooted in self-love and acceptance and joy. Ladies, welcome back to another episode how are you? Lauren: Good. Annie: Why? Why can’t you just answer the question? Jen: I feel like you need to address us individually because what happens is, what people can’t see behind the scenes is we are actually on a video conference call looking at each other so then you are like “Ladies, how are you?” and then Lauren and I stare at each other waiting for the other ones to answer first. Lauren: Who’s going to go first? Annie: Quit being so polite and just answer the question. Lauren, how are you doing? Lauren: I am so wonderful, how are you? Annie: I am golden, thank you. Jen, how are you? Jen: Also wonderful. Annie: I feel like that was just so surface-level answers but we’ll go with it. Jen: Well, if you want to do a deep dive in my problems lately. Annie: Would you like to schedule a coaching call with one of the Balance365 coaches. Jen: Well, I need a new podcast called the Jen show. And I’ll just get all weeps and vent. Annie: I do feel like you’ve used some of our podcast episodes to kind of sort through some of your own issues about exercise. Jen: Yeah, but you know what? It’s helpful for people because my problems are their problems. That’s the narcissist in me. I struggle with things a lot of women struggle with. It can be helpful to go through it with a coach. I actually have a really good idea for a podcast series and that’s to bring on Balance365ers on to the podcast and coach them through whatever block they’re struggling with and sending that out to all of our listeners. Don’t you think that’s a good idea? Annie: I do, yeah and all jokes aside, you’re right, you do have a problems. Jen: I am your average busy working mom that struggles to make time for self care and yeah, that’s why I think our podcast resonates with so many women because we all have surpassed 200,000 downloads I’ll just add that in too. We are not standing on our high horses telling everybody what to do, we struggle with all the same things, have struggled in the past currently or we may in the future so yeah, we’re all in this together. I hope everybody feels that way when they listen and talk to us. Annie: I feel like that just got really serious, like we started out all jokey. Lauren: It started out all good and quickly. Annie: You can always count on Jen- Lauren: To make it an intense counselling session. Annie: To turn it into a serious, sentimental intense conversation. Jen: I’m an INFJ. I like intense conversations. Lauren: I don’t remember what my letters are but they’re the opposite of Jen. Jen: Yeah, we could have called that without you going through the test. Annie: OK. All jokes aside, we do have a kind of a heavy topic today, it’s something, it’s a question that comes up so frequently in our community, so frequently in the diet and fitness world and something that we’ve addressed inside our community but not on the podcast yet and that is “Can you love your body and still want to change it?” and by changing it we mean address your body composition, gain weight, lose weight, change your appearance of some sort and that’s a pretty big snowball to tackle, right? And depending on who you ask you’re likely to get a variety of answers. Extreme body positive activists will tell you that body love and weight loss cannot co-exist, do not co-exist and on the flip-side many professionals in our industry or the diet industry in general as a whole that support weight loss believe that self loathing and body dissatisfaction is a prerequisite to changing a body and here we are as the 3 co-founders of Balance365 yet again in the messy middle, right? Lauren: Yup. Jen: Yup: Annie: And so we’re, you know, again, the answer to that question is going to depend on what camp you’re asking, right? So we’re going to answer this question or discuss some of the talking points that we consider when helping our community members evaluate “Can you love your body and still want to change it? Can they co-exist?” and I think we can all agree that this body acceptance movement or accepting yourself at every shape and size is a much needed message for our culture. But what we’re experiencing is that those who still want to make changes are kind of like, “Well, what about me? What do I do? What, like, how, where do I fall into?” and sadly, it feels like in some ways the pendulum has swung a bit too far in one direction, especially when members of our community are feeling shamed for wanting to change their body still or they’re keeping it a secret or they’re afraid to tell anyone. And that, to us, isn’t neutral or an expression of body autonomy which we are super supportive and this is tricky because on some levels what we do in Balance365 is give women the tools and support they need to reach their goals, which can include weight loss, while simultaneously encouraging them to love and accept themselves and there are people out there who believe that these two concepts contradict one another, which is kind of the debate of the moment, right? Now in our industry “Can you love yourself and want to change it?” Does that mean that you don’t ultimately love yourself if you still want to change yourself? Do you have any thoughts, Jen? Jen: Well, newsflash, almost any change, lifestyle change you make in your life and do consistently is going to change your body because our bodies are always in flux and although they are a representation of our genetics and our environment, they are also a representation of our habits. So I recently changed my mode of exercise. I have gone a couple years of just doing like shorter more intense workouts and now I’m back into a phase where I have the time and opportunity and support to do some heavy lifting. I’m actually going through the Arms Like Annie program that a lot of women in our community are which is a strength training program, full body strength training program, heavy weights and guess what? My body is going to change because that’s what bodies do, they adapt to the stresses you put them under. So this I really see as a big mindset block for a lot of people, whether it’s trying to hate their body to change or resisting change because they’ve learned to love their bodies. I got some really good advice this last spring. I was struggling with a certain mindset around business and money. I was at a conference and I was talking to a man who has built multiple companies and sold them and is a multi multi millionaire. He told me he lives on a street in San Francisco and sometimes he walks out and looks down the street and can’t believe that he could buy every house on the block if he wanted to. But he grew up extremely poor and so why we connected is because I grew up without a lot of financial privilege and I find that affects me today but the advice he gave me that I now see is so universal, he said “You are so busy fighting battles in your head that you are never going to be able to get out there and fight the war” and I honestly see this as one of those mindset blocks, one of those blocks that women run into like and makes them freeze and then they expend this time and energy on it. Do I want to change my body? Don’t I want to change my body? Why do I want to change my body? And then they’re just missing the whole thing that change needs to come from a place of self care and if you are taking action on something that feels like you are caring for yourself, nurturing yourself, mothering yourself, then who cares what the outcome is? Maybe your body will get smaller, maybe it will get bigger, I don’t know. Annie: You just ran through my 3 bullet points in like five minutes. Jen: I’m sorry. I did not read the outline. Annie: So Jen summarized that so well and so concisely we can just end the podcast now. I’m just kidding but you’re spot on. You’re, it’s such a good point that you’re so busy, what did you say? You’re so busy fighting battles- Jen: You’re so busy fighting battles in your head you’re never going to get out there and fight the war and this is what we deal with in an ongoing basis in Balance365, any of our Balance365ers listening will say, “Yeah, she’s right. I mean there are so many women posting daily working through these mindset blocks” and it’s really those different programmings that we have that keep us from actually taking action and doing the things that we want to do or need to do in our lives to feel our best, like our best selves. Lauren: Yeah I was writing something earlier about this kind of exact thing, like the mindset piece that we put first is so important because when you get through that the nutrition habits and exercise habits are so simple, like they’re simple. What trips us up is like these mindset blocks like you’re talking about. Annie: And you know, I just want to back up too and I hope this is inferred and I hope that you can just sense this about us by the way we carry ourselves and the way our program is written and laid out but we absolutely believe in body autonomy and we believe that the individual has control over who and what they use their body for and for what and how long and that means that we respect to variety of goals women may have for their bodies and women come to our program with goals of building self-love and healthy habits and some come with a clear goal of weight loss and we don’t place moral value on either goal over the other. We believe that they’re all worthy and we’re here to help women achieve their goals, whatever they are. Jen: We have women share with us in Balance365 that once they really get that self acceptance piece and love their bodies they’re so afraid of losing it because nobody wants to go back there once you’re not there anymore you don’t ever want to go back in that space. So then they start the habit building process and they start losing weight and that puts them into a negative space almost of self sabotage because weight loss then becomes triggering to them as in “Wait a sec. I worked so hard to love that body and now it’s changing again” and the other thing like, newsflash, our bodies are always going to change every single day we are getting older so our hormones are changing, we’re  getting wrinkles, we’re, you know, our hair color is changing. I mean, our bodies are always changing and I think that is the biggest acceptance piece that needs to happen is your body is always changing so stop this hypervigilance on trying to control it. Annie: Right and I think that getting clear on the why behind your desire to change your body can help answer some of those questions and so often we see women wanting to change their bodies and it’s rooted in self hate or this misconception that if you fix your body you’ll love your life and your life will be perfect and you’ll have the perfect body or ultimately that you want to feel worthy and you want to feel free of shame and you want to have this loving and belonging and it’s our experience that you can’t hate your body into loving yourself and nor can you hate your body into being healthy and if that had worked I think we would have a heck of a lot more “success stories” in our lives than we really do, right? Jen: The greatest act of self love is loving yourself when you think nobody else will, so when you aren’t fitting into society’s mold of what is lovable, right, so it’s, you know, so if you do have a larger body there is a lot of good and value there of learning to love and accept yourself at a larger size before, you know, before the weight loss journey comes, if it ever comes, you know, whatever your choice but you know, it’s like only loving your kids when they’re well behaved, right, like, when, you can just love your body when it’s doing what you want it to be doing and you can’t just love yourself when your behaviors are on point, right, your nutrition’s on point, your exercise is on point, your rockin’ life, you love yourself but then as soon as your behaviors are off track you’re filled with these self loathing thoughts. That’s not love, that’s just like surface level approval. Annie: That’s conditioned. That’s conditioned love. That’s not and ultimately I think what a lot of us would really like and are striving for is to love ourselves unconditionally. Meaning our body can look a variety of ways, our behaviors can look a variety of ways and we still can treat ourselves with compassion that we would so many other people in our lives. Jen: Yeah, another good analogy I use sometimes with women is I moved into a house, a new house about a year and a half ago and it’s an older house and there was people that lived here before us that decorated, painted, designed to this house in a way that suited them but is not to my tastes at all. So, for example, my bathroom is lime green and I hate it, I hate it but I still love my home. I am still grateful to live in this home. This is the nicest home I’ve ever lived in. Growing up as a little girl my mother couldn’t have dreamed of providing this kind of house for me as a kid so every day I wake up I feel like I’m living in my dream home but my bathroom is lime green. Yes, I do want to change that color eventually. I haven’t yet, it just, I haven’t had time, it has been the right time but eventually I will paint the bathroom, I will do some renovations around this house to change it but that doesn’t, that doesn’t take away from the unconditional love and gratitude I have for this home and I wish that people could feel that way about their bodies. Sometimes there are changes that you want to make and as long as those are realistic and within your realm of control the problem is there is just such polarizing views. There’s this whole view that you mentioned at the start, Annie ,there’s this whole idea that you have complete control over what your body looks like and then there’s the other end of the spectrum people saying “You actually have no control over what your body looks like so don’t even bother thinking about it” but I think it was Dr Tracy Mann, we’re interviewing her on our podcast pretty soon here which is really exciting but she has in her books that studies in her book Secrets From The Eating Lab, studies show that it’s in the middle, you know, as usual, we actually do- Lauren: That messy middle.   Jen: Yes, like you can’t change your genetics, of course, but there are certain behaviors we have in our life that will affect the way our bodies look and feel and I think her stats are we have about a 30 percent, 30 percent of the way we look is we’re able to manipulate, which is probably a lot less than some people think and a lot more than other people think and so it’s OK. It’s OK. You can have total love for your body. You can have gratitude for the body that you were given. You can have acceptance of the genes that you have and you can still say, “You know what, I would love to reduce my abdominal body fat and I am going to step forward making change in a way that will reduce the fat I have on my body and that is coming from a place of self-love and self care and also being realistic.” Annie: And I think the important distinction there, Jen, that you’re, in terms of your bathroom, is striving for change doesn’t mean that there’s anything wrong with it, it’s just different. It’s not good or bad- Jen: Yeah. Annie: I mean I mean to you the lime green might be bad but- Jen: Yeah, I mean, but how some people behave about their bodies is that, taking it back to the house, they would just throw gas around this house and light it on fire like that because they don’t like the way the bathroom looks and here’s the thing, it’s also knowing that there’s a time to address that and not right, like, I have recognized over the last 18 months that trying to make any changes to the interior of my home were just not realistic. I just haven’t had the time or the resources or the money to pay somebody so we haven’t done it and there’s a time to change and then there’s a time to hold the line and just, but you can still wake up every morning and be grateful, right, like it doesn’t have to be something urgent in, like, you know, you can’t love yourself or respect yourself until you have this but I mean, we talk about it in terms of bodies but I mean there’s a lot of people that get hysteria over their house as well because it’s where they live in. Annie:  Yeah or you love your job, you enjoy your job but you want to improve in a particular skill set or – Jen: Yes. Annie: You enjoy your marriage, you love your spouse, your partner, your significant other but you wish you could spend more time on date nights or as you noted you love your children but you wish they would listen better at bedtime but you can, we believe wholeheartedly, that you can want to change an aspect or an element of yourself, your appearance, your being, whatever it is and that come from self love, that come from a place of love and care and admiration for yourself, versus- Jen: It’s not that you are more or less worthy with these changes, which is really that key component, right, like I go in and color my hair, I get blonde highlights every 3 or 4 months or so or 10 months. And it’s like, I just like it and I don’t see myself as the less worth, if I, you know, for whatever reason, if I had to go back to my, you know, grow it all out and have it just have my natural hair color, I wouldn’t be like, you know, feeling awful about myself, it would just be “Oh, like, I love coloring my hair. I wear makeup, you know.” There’s all these things, right but like- Lauren: Our outward appearance can be an expression right we are and people have different preferences, people like different hair colors and different hair styles and different makeup styles, that’s OK. It doesn’t mean like we don’t love ourselves if we’re not wearing makeup and that’s how we can use that analogy when we’re talking about our bodies. Like, you don’t have to, we say this all the time, you don’t have to love every little tiny part to love the whole, right? Annie: That’s exactly how I feel about muscles, to me they’re like an accessory, like they’re like my favorite accessory. It is honestly, it’s an act of self-expression for me to have visible muscles. Now if for whatever reason I didn’t have the visible muscles, you know, it might be an adjustment but I ultimately know that I am a human of value, of worth, just innately, not because I look a certain way, not because I can do certain things in the gym with my muscles that look a certain way. I just have value because I’m a human, as do all all women, and I mean and it’s so easy for us to see as mothers and all, we could say the same thing about our kids, like, why do our kids have value? Just because they are, just because they’re beings, they’re living, breathing humans but to give ourselves that same sense of value and worth seems so difficult. Jen: Yeah I think what happens is people, they just, they overthink this and it gets people in a tizzy on both ends whether it’s from believing you can’t love yourself until you look a certain way or believing that if you’re making changes you don’t love yourself, you know, there’s just way too much overthinking going on. Annie: So what with the approach that we’ve already kind of touched on that we take in our program is we encourage our members to adopt a self-love approach to change and if weight loss is the way in which you want to change your body, it can be a by-product of your habits and a way that you care for yourself. Jen: Yeah and it’s always a byproduct of your habits, always, right? So when you are, like, we’ve covered this in previous podcasts, but you can’t just say, snap your fingers and lose 10 pounds. Annie didn’t snap her fingers and grow muscles. All changes are a byproduct of our habits and so once you start looking at changes as a byproduct of your habits then you can look at the habits required and or the skills you need to develop in order to see that change and you can decide if that is self love and self care for you, right? Annie: And you posed a really great question, a thread came up in Balance365 last week and the question you posed in response to her is “Is this goal about health and love and self-care or is this about achievement and ideal?” Jen: Right. Annie: And that can maybe help you distinguish the why behind this. Is this coming from a place of love or is this coming from some other place that really isn’t worth perpetuating. Jen: Right, like I could be leaner than I am right now, I am quite comfortable in my body with my body weight but I have been 20 to 25 pounds leaner than I am now. I can go back to that life but there is a point where the extreme that I would have to take goes from a place of self-love and self care into self harm, right, so I, you know, I eat really balanced meals, I pay attention to my nutrition, eat when I’m hungry, stop when I’m satisfied, exercise regularly, take care of my mental health. If I wanted to lose 20 pounds at this point I would have to pay very, very close attention to my nutrition and to me that takes me into a place of self harm and it doesn’t feel well and that’s sort of my guiding compass as far as is this coming from a place of self care or is this coming from a place of self harm? Lauren: I really like that, like, how does it feel? Jen: How does this feel for you? Yeah. Annie: Yes And unfortunately there are people in our industry that would encourage you to power through that feeling. Jen: They do all the time in the fitness industry. All the freaking time. Annie: They would say “This is a prerequisite. This is a requirement that you regulate this negative self talk or pushing yourself past this comfort zone is something that’s required to achieve these goals that are ultimately of high value, right?” Jen: They describe it as a plateau, right, that you have to push through, which sometimes it, like, I mean, that’s the thing about, you’ve really got to know yourself, right, because sometimes there’s value in pushing through, right, like sometimes you don’t, every time it gets hard you don’t want to give up and walk away. Sometimes there’s hard things that you have to work through but the self harm piece is like “Is this sustainable for you? Are you willing? Are you going to do this forever?” And there’s been different times in my life, like for example, right now I get up at 5:30 in the morning to work out and start my workout at 6 and yeah, there are some days that I don’t want to do that but I push through and I’m always happy afterwards. Right now that behavior comes from a place of self care. When I had a newborn, if I would have insisted on that behavior with a newborn baby when I wasn’t sleeping all night and I was pushing myself to get up at 5:30 to work out at 6, that becomes self harm, right, because it means I am going with less and less and less sleep. I’m not even getting enough sleep to recover from my workouts. So those are really self assessment questions that you need to ask yourself and that nobody can answer except for you. Annie: And that’s exactly why we don’t prescribe weight loss or have weight loss goals or goals in general for our community members because no one knows your body better than you do, not even us who work with thousands of women on a daily basis, like, we don’t know you as well as you do and so we really just want to encourage you to pull that reflection inward and say like, “What is this about? Like, can I love my body and want to change it at the same time?” and maybe for you the answer is like “No, I can’t right now. First I have to work on loving myself, you know. Jen: So we recently had a community member share that she thought she had fat loss goals and she was ready to dig in on those fat loss goals but after some self assessment she’s realized that that actually is not a healthy space for her to be in right now and she loves the idea of just focusing on habits and letting her body be what it’s going to be and that is the ultimate form of acceptance for her and that’s where she’s at right now and we are like “A round of applause, girlfriend” because really, all we want for people is to own their life Annie: Yeah, and, you know, just some of these concepts we talk about are kind of heavy and they’re philosophical but, you know, so often what we hear, what this change looks like, this shift which can be so subtle and so small and sometimes you don’t even realize that it’s happening to people around you is that all of a sudden, you know, we’re exercising because, as Jen said, “It leaves me feeling better. I feel more confident. I have more energy throughout the day” versus “I’m getting up at 530 to punish myself because I want to change my body because I hate my body so much and I just can’t stand another day living in my own skin.” I mean, the behavior looks the same on the outside but on the inside, Jen knows this is coming from a place of self-love and self care. Jen: Yeah we often say and I think we’ve said in the podcast before, “it’s not about the what the people are doing it’s about the why and how they go about it.” That’s where the dysfunction and disorder, that’s where it can be found. Annie: Yeah, and I mean, the same can be true for how you feed your body, how you speak to your body and you know, are you feeding yourself balanced meals because your body deserves to be nourished and again, you feel better when you have balanced meals or are you starving or removing whole food groups or eating foods you don’t like because, again, you loathe your body and you want to change it and if you change your body, you change your life and if you change your life then you have less problems.” Jen: Right, the thing I love and I’ll let Lauren elaborate on this but somebody posted in our group in the last, I don’t know, year sometime, she asked about protein bars and she said “But aren’t protein bars diety?” and then you replied, Lauren, do you want to share that? Lauren:  Yes, I don’t remember exactly what I replied but I’ll say what I think about it now. So there’s no, like, diet food or not diet food, right? Like you walk into a restaurant and like two women are eating the exact same thing, they’re both eating a salad and one person restricted themselves and they’re punishing themselves for what they ate yesterday or they’re punishing themselves because they hate their body and the other person is eating to nourish their body and it makes them feel good so that’s why they’re eating their salad, right, like just like Jen said, it’s not always about the what, it’s about the why. Jen: Does it come from a place of deprivation or does it come from a place of abundance and self care? Annie: Exactly and again, they can look the same on the outside. Jen: Exactly. Annie:  On the surface. You might not be able to tell, you might not be able to distinguish and that’s why it’s so important that you get really in tune with yourself and what you’re doing and why you’re doing it and that can help you discern, is this self-love or is this self-hate are these behaviors rooted in? And you know, I just, we say this all the time and it can’t be said enough, we have a saying that “We take great care of things we love and your body is no exception” and I think about all the things that I take care of in my life, between relationships with girlfriends, my children, even my house plants, for heaven’s sakes and I want them to feel comfortable and safe and confident and thrive and grow and expand and live this vibrant life, I’m not degrading them, I’m not starving them, I’m not depriving them. I’m actually treating them really sweetly and kindly and with love and encouragement and sometimes that looks like- Jen: Sometimes there’s tough love built into that. Annie: Yes, like, “Jen, do you want to stay in bed because your bed is warm and cozy and it’s cold outside and it’s dark but I know ultimately this is the goal I committed to and I’m going to feel good” Like, it’s not all rainbows and unicorns. Jen: Absolutely. Actually, my mantra, you know, these days I’ve been struggling a bit. And my mantra is “Mother. I’m mothering myself right now.” Like I have just needed, I have needed some tough love lately and it’s not that I’m, like, being a drill sergeant to myself it’s that “Would my mother let would let me stay up and watch Netflix to 1:30 AM when I have to be up at 6 you know 5 nights in a row?” Like, no, and so that’s sometimes where the tough love has to come in but a mother, well, a mother knows. A mother knows when to push and a mother knows when to pull back, right, we do it for our kids every single day but yet for ourselves it’s like we want to put ourselves into like one box and just like stay there either because we see pendulum swing with self-compassion to, right, we see all the time women are like “Oh I’ve watched Netflix for 3 days but self care, right? and it’s like, “I don’t know. I’m not you so I don’t know if that was self care for you or not but I know for a lot of people you have moved from self care to like numbing and avoiding.” And like you know, like, my mother, if I was sick I might watch T.V. for 3 days but if I wasn’t sick my mother, you know, there’s not a lot of mothers out there who would be letting their kids just sit and watch T.V. for 3 days. Annie: After a day she would be like, “OK get off the couch.” Jen: Get outside, right? My parents used to do that all the time, like, “Get your butts outside now,” right, and so you bring it back to that and go like mother yourself. Have you gotten some fresh air today? Have you gotten some movement in? Are you eating balanced meals? You know, eating, you know, high sugar treats all day long, no that’s not self care day after day after day and that’s certainly not balance. Annie: So, you know, I think, this is just my own personal experience but I’ve heard it echoed in the stories of women we’ve worked with in the past is that they kind of are like, “Yeah, OK, I get that some women love themselves and they’re treating themselves well because they love themselves that much. That’s great for them, however for me I’m used to fueling my workouts and my food and fitness choices from self-hate and I’m worried that if I love myself that I’m just going to become lazy and I’m going to eat all the foods and I’m just going to lose all my motivation and I’m going to get complacent, right?” Jen: That’s how it feels when you’ve been in a place of control for so long, I mean what happens to the teenagers who move out of their family home at 18 that have been living under very rigid controlling rules. They go to college and they go nuts, right? Like we will always rebel against these rules. Annie: Lauren and I are like “Yep.” Jen: Yes, so it’s sort of like, you know, it’s just, it’s human nature, right it’s just human nature and so a lot of people might see their pending swing but eventually you need to like sit up and go and you just need to mother yourself, that’s what you have to do and I find that quite effective in knowing when I need a little tough love and when I need some compassion, right. So if my kids were really emotional, you know, school ends, they’re super emotional, they’re fighting, they’re just not doing well, I can look at them and have some self compassion and go like “These kids are tired, like, we’re going to turn the T.V. on a little early today because they they need some downtime, they need to skip their chores today, they’ve got no energy, you know, or emotional regulation skills like this.” Because you you look at your kids and you just assess, right, you’re always assessing what they need and that changes day to day and I think we can do that for ourselves too. We can do a much better job of it than women traditionally have been doing. We’ve just, we live under so many rules, right, like I just think women actually live under so, not just for ourselves but in our society there are so many rules and a societal construct that women always are living around that I think when we do find ourselves in that space of having free time, we may find ourselves in a rebellious space a lot because we actually have no idea how much unconscious time and energy we spend on, like, subscribing to these rules. Lauren: Preach. Annie: Word. So the anti-climatic answer to our question that I posed at the beginning of this podcast is “Can you love your body and want to change it?” is, I mean, Yes/It really depends and that’s something that you have to answer on an individual level. I personally can sit here and say with great confidence that I have changed my body as a complete act of self-love. Or self-love has resulted in a body change is maybe a better way to put it. But not everyone that changes their body is acting out of self love and vice versa and again our bodies are meant to change they’re fluid. They’re ever changing, they’re always changing, especially as women of childbearing age, I mean, my body looks so different than it did a year ago and I’m 2 plus years postpartum, like, it’s till changing from pregnancy I feel like, I mean, my hair for heaven sakes is still changing. But I think, you know, we’re, as usual, we feel like the truth to that question is somewhere in the middle. We are not on either side of one extreme camp or the other and we really want to help put women in the driver seat to answer that question on their own terms, in a way that serves them and feels good to them and anything we can help women, any way that we can help women come across that answer is good for us. Jen: Yes. Annie: All right, good one. Jen: Lauren will go zip in in the background go ” Preach.” We should get you a t-shirt that says “What she said.” Annie: OK, well, yet another great topic with yet another awkward ending in the bag but this is good. This is a good conversation that I think needed to we needed to address on our podcast because again, we’ve discussed it so many times in our community, which again, if you’re aren’t in there and you want to join it’s Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. The three of us are in there, we’ve got some awesome moderators and a great community system if you want to continue the discussion on loving your body and still changing it or how you can begin making changes from a place of self-love. It will be a great place to learn so I hope to see you inside and ladies we will chat soon, OK. Lauren: Bye. Jen: Bye.   The post 50: Can You Love Your Body And Still Want To Change It? appeared first on Balance365.

Free Morning Routine Habit Tracker! Mornings can be tough but they don’t have to be. Annie and Lauren chat with Makenzie Chilton of Love Your Mondays about the morning routine she recommends for her clients. In just 23 minutes, you can effect positive change on the trajectory of your day. Find out more about simple steps you can take starting tomorrow to make all of your tomorrows better. What you’ll hear in this episode: The scientific benefits of routine What is positive psychology? If you can only do one thing, this is it The power of gratitude Why you shouldn’t reach for your phone first in the morning Strengthening neural pathways for positivity The practice of daily journaling The mind-body connection Movement in the morning – why it matters Multitasking vs monotasking Acts of kindness Tim Ferriss’ approach to a morning routine All or nothing mindset and morning routines What implementing the morning routine for 60 days felt like Seinfeld’s Chain Theory How your brain responds to checking things off  your to-do list The Ta-Da List – what it is and how it works Managing your screen time and the anxiety of disconnection Removing obligations to respond to things before you are ready Resources: Sean Achor TED Talk Tim Ferriss Morning Routine Seinfeld’s Chain Theory The Ta-Da List – Makenzie’s Instagram Post Love Your Mondays Website Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: If you’re like Lauren, Jen or I mornings can leave you feeling a little frazzled. Whether you wake up to an alarm clock or like mine, your alarm clock has two legs, stinky morning breath, needs a diaper change and is demanding breakfast, mornings can often feel chaotic and adding one more thing to your am to do list might not sound so doable but on today’s episode career coach and productivity specialist Makenzie Chilton shares a short and sweet morning routine that is scientifically backed to amplify positivity in the brain and optimize productivity throughout the rest of your day because let’s be honest, the first hour of your day can really affect the tone for what follows. Plus this only takes 20 minutes and you can include your whole family if you wish. After chatting with Mackenzie on today’s episode Lauren and I have already started to change the way we start our mornings and I think after listening you might be excited to explore it as well. I’m excited to share that we’ve got a super sweet freebie for you. You can download and print this routine and habit tracker off at www.Balance365Life.com/episode48. Mackenzie, welcome to Balance365 Life Radio, thanks for joining us. How are you? Makenzie: Good, thanks for having me. Annie: I am so excited to have you because we’re going to talk about morning routines. Lauren, you’re with us today, do you have a morning routine, Lauren Lauren: No, well, I tried to implement one and my son just doesn’t cooperate so I’m excited. Makenzie: To be honest, like, I know that I’m like “Everybody do this routine” but I’m super not perfect at it and my morning routine is coffee, nonnegotiable. Annie: I can get on board with that. Lauren: Oh, I have that. Makenzie: Yeah, yeah. Anything beyond that I’m just like “These are enhancing things” you know. Annie: Yeah, I could totally get on board with that, you’re not like “Do this or die, comply or die” it’s like, “I said these are going to make your day better” but before we get into that can you tell us how you got into morning routines? Makenzie: Yes. So, I’m a career coach now at Love Your Mondays and my background is in psychology so I feel like my story is not super unique in the way about a lot of people have experienced kind of like my path but my education is kind of unique. So I, typical, like went from high school right to university. And I didn’t know what I wanted to do, which, I feel like it’s a common theme for however old you are, 18, when you go to university. It’s still mind-boggling to me that we’re supposed to like have that figured out. Annie: I know, we’re babies, right? Mackenzie: Yeah and then I had taken psychology all the way through and I’ve always been super fascinated in people’s behavior and you know, why people do things, what’s the motive behind it and then I took this really awesome class in 4th year and it was forensic psych and I thought forensic meant death. Annie: Same. Lauren: Same, right? Makenzie: Yeah. It means, like, the study of Law. So it’s anything to do with law and psychology. At first, I was like,  “How am I going to analyze dead people?” But it’s anything, essentially, with crime and psychology so that’s like the psychology of policing or jury selection or serial killers or mass homicide and those are the things that I focused on because I really found it fascinating how people could behave so differently than the norm, essentially. Then I worked in the prison system here in Canada for 3 years and I absolutely loved that job, like dream job, so I felt very lucky, I still feel very lucky to have experienced a dream job in a way because I felt like I was helping people that nobody wanted to help and I was getting like real progress with these like very violent criminals. But then I got laid off. Yeah, budget cuts, they cut our funding. And I got laid off and I was like “What I do with my life? So I started using the psychology I had and I went into, I worked in management for a while and combined those two things and started Love Your Mondays and so with that became, like, learning about all these, like, productivity things and how to be your best self and a lot of, I call them like, behavioral enhancements or motivators, right and so that’s where the morning routine kind of slid in because I’m not, I don’t thrive on routine, I have like a balance of like, like, chaos a little bit because it’s creative for me and but I also like cycle back to like really needing a morning routine sometimes. Annie: Fascinating. I, all of my, like, side note: murder mystery podcasts like memories are coming back to mind, like, I wonder what she thinks of that which we’ll have to chat about later. Lauren: Yes I was thinking of a lot and I was thinking of the murder podcast and like crime shows, Orange Is The New Black, I’m like- Makenzie: Yeah. Lauren: Let’s just talk about that stuff. Makenzie: Honestly, like, have you seen MindHunter? Lauren: No. Mackenzie: It’s on our Netflix, I think our Netflix is different than yours in the States but, he like goes into prisons in the seventies and he’s the guy that came up with the term serial killer. But that was like, essentially, my job for a while. Annie: Oh, fascinating. Makenzie: Talk to these. Yeah, it’s great. Annie: And now you’re on a podcast helping women with their routines in the morning. Makenzie: Right. Annie: But it’s all connected. Makenzie: It’s a cycle. It’s all behavioral. Annie: Yeah. So you have a routine because this is what you do now, you help people with productivity and starting their day on a little bit more positive note, as you said, like enhancing their day, enhancing their morning. You have your own routine that you shared with other people which is actually how you got connected to us because I think Jen found your morning routine and was like “Let’s talk about this” because so many women I think listening, myself included, are, in the mornings especially, trying to get themselves ready, get kids ready, manage schedules and it can feel like chaos and you’re just like clawing your way through it and it’s just like survival mode but there are some benefits to creating some routine regardless, I know you were going to get into some elements of the routine that you would recommend but there is some science about benefits of routine, right? Makenzie: Yeah, I mean, it’s structure, right, so it’s like a repeatable behavior that we can kind of eventually do without necessarily thinking about it that gives us structure and flow, especially in the morning for setting the tone for the rest of your day. Annie: Gosh, that sounds familiar, Lauren, huh? Lauren: Yes. Annie: We talk about habits all the time and how especially as busy women our motivation and energy and time are just like commodities that are so precious to us and if you can get into the habit of doing things or routine of doing things you can hopefully find yourself in a position where you don’t have to exert large amounts of willpower and motivation and determination and effort to get the results you want to get throughout your day or throughout your lifestyle or your fitness or your food or whatever it is we’re talking about. Hopefully, the idea is that with some of your tips listeners can implement some of those elements to their morning and have a better day overall, right? Makenzie: I want to, like, I’m not a mom, I’m an auntie, a loving auntie. But I do want to acknowledge that I understand that this isn’t maybe something that can be implemented all at once or all together or consistently every day and so I actually met Jennifer in person. And then she was watching my stories where I was talking about this routine on Instagram and she was like “Listen, when I get up in the morning like a truck ran over the cereal bowl and I spill coffee everywhere and I have 3 kids and it’s not happening” and I was like, “OK, fair.” Lauren: It’s kind of like, “Well, what kind of routine can you have when you wake up to a child screaming at you every day?” and I do really like morning routines and I try my best but I just have to remind myself like a lot of times it doesn’t happen or doesn’t happen consistently like I would like it to and I have to remind myself that like this is a season of my life and it’s not going to be this way forever and so I just have to do my best and let that be OK and realize that I’m not going to probably get my morning routine every day until my kids are older and like there’s just, maybe you have some tips for me but it may just be, like, that’s how it has to be for now. Makenzie: Yeah and I honestly, I really like that aspect of looking at it through a non-judgemental lens, right? Because some people will be like, “Well, I should, I should, I should and-” Annie: Or if I can’t do this routine start to finish, perfectly, all day, every day, then I’m not going to do any of it and I’m guessing you would say, like, “Pick what you can do.” Makenzie: Pick what you can do. Pick what you can do and find space even if it’s throughout the day, even if you complete these, it’s 23 minutes total. So when I was talking to Jennifer I was like, “Involve your kids in the morning if you can for certain things, depending on the age, obviously.” Annie: Yeah, well, now, you know, like 23 minutes it’s like, “OK, let’s get going now, my interest is piqued even though I already, I already know what’s in your routine, I’ve looked it over but I’m sure our listeners are like “OK just tell us the routine.” Lauren: Just tell us what it is. Annie: Yes, so tell us the secret. OK. So what do you do? You wake up and what? Do what? Makenzie: Well, I wake up, I used to be, I’m not going to use the words good or bad but I use to just check my phone right away. And I’ve tried to not do that because in my world it just means I immediately have, like, a list of 10 things that I have to do and it takes away from doing this so I like to, what I say, set myself up for success so I know that first thing in the morning, the only thing I have to do is the morning routine and then I kind of continue on with my day. So this routine, I didn’t come up with but I love it, it’s science-based which I’m a super fan of if you can tell, I’m kind of a nerd in that way, so it’s based on the work of Shawn Achor and he’s a positive psychologist, he has like a really, really funny TED talk. Annie: I watched it this morning. We’ll have to link that in the show notes. He’s super entertaining. Lauren: Oh I want to watch it. I really like positive psychology. I took a class on it once. Makenzie: Yeah, it’s amazing and so for people that maybe haven’t heard of positive psychology before it’s, the focus is more on like future, it’s future-focused behavior as opposed to a lot of other types of psychology that can be very diagnostic and past focused. And it looks at kind of, instead of, and he talks about this in the TED talk, instead of looking at the average, he wants to look at those outliers, so those people are operating at like a higher level of either happiness or ability to learn or whatever, whatever the marker is, they actually look at the outliers- Annie: In hopes of moving everyone up with them. Makenzie: Exactly. Annie: Yeah, so it’s, like, you’re, what are you doing well that everyone else can do well also so we can all do well together? Makenzie: Yeah, exactly, so we could all do well, instead of what happens a lot in, like, data science is that they try and figure out what the average is doing within a margin of error so they can prove it or disprove it. Annie: Yeah and sharing is caring, right? So- Makenzie: Exactly. Yeah.  So what he found was that these 5 things and I’ll highlight the one specific thing, if you can only do this one thing then that’s the thing you should do but he found through his research that over 21 days it’ll change the wiring in your brain to make you happier, which is awesome, right? Annie: I’m in for that. Makenzie: Into that but what else he really, really drives home is that when we’re happy our brain operates at an up-level, so as opposed to negative neutral or stressed. So right now you might just be, you know, neutral which is better than being stressed but you aren’t able to think of creative solutions and your brain isn’t operating at a higher capacity like it does when it’s happy. OK, so the morning routine. So the first one is the thing if you can only, only do this one I suggest to people: write down, we’ve all heard this kind of before, but write down 3 things that you’re grateful for and get really specific with these things so thing, like I’m really grateful for my friends, is good but I’m really grateful for my friendship with Naomi because she always makes me laugh and so we see how much how much more specific that is, correct? Lauren: Right. Annie: Yeah. Makenzie: And so the benefit of doing this is that your brain, instead of noticing the negative things in the world first, it’ll train itself to focus on the positive. Annie: Which I really like that, because kind of circling back to the contrast of opening your phone the first thing that, I mean, that’s exactly what I do, I put on my glasses and I grab my phone from my nightstand, I unplug it and I’m opening up email, I’m checking Instagram and almost instantly I’m like, like, it’s just like this wave of, like, this cloud comes over me that’s like, “Oh my gosh, look at all this I have to do, look at all this I have to respond to and then here’s this chick, she looks like she’s just crushing it in the gym and her kids already ate this healthy breakfast and this girl already went for a run and I’m feeling like I’m just I’m already in catch up mode, before my feet even hit the ground I’m already like, “Oh my God, I’ve got to get going” and your suggestion is like don’t touch the phone, wake up and write down three things you’re grateful, three specific things you’re grateful for, so you start already, start focusing on the positive. Makenzie: On the positive. Lauren: I really like that part too because I think we know, I think we’ve talked about before, like, the more you can, you’ve got to create that neural pathway in your brain, right, where like when you think a certain way thoughts that are like that come easier to you, so like I always talk about it in in like, like, body image, right? Like you already have this, a lot of people have this negative thought process going and going and going and thinking like one time one nicer thought about your body, it’s going to feel really hard but the more that you do that the more you strengthen those thoughts. So yeah, I think that’s great and I just see a lot of parallels with a lot of different elements to that. Makenzie: And like this, if anything, if this is the only thing that you can do it still will improve your brain to be- Lauren: Yeah. Annie:  And that takes, what? I mean 3-5 minutes at the most, if that. I mean, some days might be a little bit easier, might be able to come a little bit easier than others, but I mean, that’s not a huge time investment. Makenzie: And I think it’s really interesting when you do it, especially for about 10 days, around the 10-day mark you’re like, well, I’ve already said all the things because at first, it’s like, “Yeah!” Lauren: Oh, right. Makenzie: You know what I mean? And then after you’re like, I’ll just plant. Lauren: Can I repeat? Makenzie: But so then it becomes, like, a really kind of, like, fun exercise to try and find things, you know? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah. And I just, on a really simple, like, way of, like, looking at it, it’s like, the more you pay attention to the stuff the more you tend to see it, it’s just like the power of suggestion or whatever, you know? Like someone or when you’re pregnant, like suddenly everyone’s pregnant it’s like, like when you start looking for good stuff, the more good stuff it just seems to naturally appear. Makenzie: And that’s what we want to focus on, especially right as you’re starting your day. Annie: I love it. K, cool what’s next? Makenzie: Next step is journaling about one positive experience that you’ve had in the last 24 hours. And so the science behind this is kind of that your brain is reliving that positive experience and your conscious brain can’t tell the difference between a memory and between reality and so we see this a lot in people that have post-traumatic stress disorder because they’re reliving a terrible event right and their brain doesn’t know if it’s real, if they’re in a threat or not and so we kind of want to capture that and flip it into reliving a positive experience interest. Annie: So how much do you have to journal or is that up to the individual, like, set a timer or just? Makenzie: Yeah, so I think it’s like the first one, so the gratitude write down 3 things is about 3 minutes, this one I do just about 2 minutes, so even if it’s like a cute older couple I saw when I was on my way to the ice cream store, you know, I’ll try and remember if it was raining outside, if there are any smells and you go through kind of all the senses. And it can be as small as you witnessing like a loving glance between a really cute older couple or something like that, so it doesn’t have to be a big thing that necessarily happens to you even, it could be your witnessing of an event but just reliving like a one of those warm and fuzzies, you know. Annie: OK, because I’m over here thinking about like this like Dear Diary journal entry. Like 4 pages in your best handwriting where your hand starts to cramp. Makenzie: I mean, you can. Annie: But like, don’t overthink it, like, it could be something that you witnessed. Makenzie: Don’t overthink it. Annie: Okay. Makenzie: And you want to be like an easy yes, right? So like an easy behavioral habit that you can create for yourself. Annie: Got it. I love it. Makenzie: The next piece is, so Shawn Achor says exercise for 15 minutes, I say move for 15 minutes, any type of movement because I feel like that feels less daunting. For me, like, when I’m going to work out it’s like for 45 minutes to an hour and it’s like a thing and I’ve put the clothes on and you know I’ve to go out and do it and that’s what feels like a lot in the morning for me to do. Annie: Are you a Tim Ferris fan at all? So have you seen him share his morning routine? I guess, I don’t know if he has, like, a cooler name for it but he’s, that’s what it is, he probably has of like cool marketing term for it. Makenzie: Probably, it’s probably like super optimized and super, yeah.   Annie: Like, be 10 times cooler in the morning with these 5 things. But he has something similar in there, he just says do 5 to 10 reps of something and he notes that getting into his body even if it’s just for 30 seconds affects his mood and I think he noted in this particular article that he just does like push-ups right now, like he does 10 push-ups and so, you know, maybe somewhere in between, you know, 10 pushups and 15 minutes or whatever you can give but just this idea that you’re like just getting into your body, you’re priming your body, so to speak, you’re embodying your body can get some endorphins going. Makenzie: Get the endorphins going and improves your, like, mind-body connection, which is such a real thing, like it affects your intuition, it allows you to listen to your body when you’re making decisions. And it’s teaching your brain that your actions matter. Annie: Yes. Makenzie: That’s kind of the link and that’s what we’re trying to get in the morning so it doesn’t have to be this daunting, you know, I’m training for a marathon or whatever it is, not that there’s anything wrong with that but I feel like for people that maybe have kids, this is a way that you can incorporate, depending on the age of your kids, like have a dance party for 15 minutes, like how great would that be, you know? For your little guys in the morning. Lauren: I think that would elevate everyone’s mood, right? Makenzie: Mhmm. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: For sure and it’s not, again, goes back to not a huge time investment. I think we meet a lot of women that are in a spot in their lives where they’re just saying no to exercise period because they can’t commit what they feel is worthy of an exercise routine, you know, like 45 minutes to a half hour, so it’s like, “I can’t do the whole thing so it’s just not good enough. I’m not going to do it at all. Kind of what we were talking about at the beginning with routines, like, I can’t do the whole routine so I’m not going to do any of it but this is, like, just 5 to 10 minutes, like, you know 15 minutes if you’ve got the time or whatever, but if you don’t have 15 minutes, like 5 minutes is better than nothing. Makenzie: Yeah, exactly and that’s, like, one song, like that’s how I kind of do my thing for the morning, I’m like, “OK, these are my 3 pumping up jams and that’s about 9 minutes or whatever it is, right? Annie: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Makenzie: I think it’s good too to just, like, notice where your things are that you want to work on so when you are talking about that it seems daunting to go work out 45 minutes, that’s me, like, I still have issues with consistent exercise because it seems like such a big deal by the time I, like, get sweaty and then I have to shower and so that’s why I do like this in the morning. Because it is easy. Annie: Yeah and you’re still getting benefits of moving your body. Makenzie: Yeah. Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Can we go back to what you said before, you said, “It trains your brain that your actions matter” is that what you said? Makenzie: Yes. Lauren: Can you expand on what that means? Makenzie: So it goes back to that mind-body connection, right, so if you are noticing differences slowly over time and say your energy or in your ability to focus, your brain will be like, “OK this matters, it matters that I do this” and so an alternative examples of that is kind of and I still do this sometimes but someone said this to me and I don’t know where I read it or saw it that when you hit the snooze button, you’re essentially like lying to yourself first thing in the morning, like you’re teaching, right? And I love the snooze but you’re teaching your brain that you can change what matters in the morning right away and that’s how you’re starting your day and so someone said that and I was like “Oh my goodness. Wow.” So I was like, “OK, I don’t want to lie to myself first thing in the morning. But so this is kind of the reverse of that, that even if it’s, so it’s a dance party or it’s a quick 15 minute walk with your dogs or the push up thing, those small things even will teach your brain that what you’re doing is important because you’ll feel the energy, you’ll feel the increased endorphins, you’ll see the ability to focus and your brain will connect that to your body. Lauren: Gotcha so like you’ll want to do it. OK. Annie: Those become the part of the positive reward that follows the movement, in habit speak, yes. Awesome. OK, So, so far we’ve got, just to recap real quick, we have gratitude: writing down 3 things that you’re grateful for, then a little journaling reliving a positive experience and then exercise, 10 to 15 minutes, move your body whether it’s like dance party, a yoga, some squats, some pushups, a walk with the dogs, a run, whatever it is. Makenzie: Whatever it is. Annie: And then what’s next? Makenzie: So this one is both a buzzword right now or maybe for a little while but it’s meditation and I first found this like really daunting and I expected to be sitting in like, you know, typical yoga pose and like become enlightened real quick and the best description I found for meditation is, because I thought you were supposed to clear your mind, right, I thought that was the purpose and you are, but it’s focusing on your breath which is the key point number one and then letting your thoughts pass through without judgment and so I think that’s something that isn’t necessarily always taught in meditation classes that I’ve taken or certain apps that you can just download without any kind of background but my meditation teacher was, she said that and she was like “We’re just noticing that you’re really wanting coffee” and then you let it pass and then you go back to focusing on your breath. And so we’re only going to do this for 2 minutes in the morning. So 2 minutes breathing in, breathing out. Some people are really visual, so what I found super helpful is to breathe in and imagine you’re breathing in the color blue through your nose and then you’re breathing out the color red. And that like allows me to actually focus and do it. My thoughts will still come in but then I always, you just always kind of come back to the breath. Annie: I wonder how many people are breathing in blue and flowing out red right now because I’m pretty sure I was and I really, like, I really, I can picture that like- Makenzie: Yeah. Annie: And there’s I don’t know if this was intentional but the color association with, like, blue is, like, invigorating and light and airy and like, positive and red feels a little bit heavier and I don’t want to say bad but like negative. Makenzie: No. Right. Annie: So to breathe in the good stuff and exhale. Makenzie: Exhale yeah. I see that red stuff as like “I’m a dragon, like, power!” Annie: Oh I kind of like that too. But and I love that you say, like, 2 minutes, start there. Lauren: I was going to say is there a reason behind, like, the order and the time frames because I have recently gotten into meditation and I’m trying to be consistent and I’m not super consistent right now but I’m working on it and I know that I always try to do at least 10 minutes and I don’t know why, I just think I should do at least 10 minutes for some reason. Makenzie: I think that I’m sure there’s probably, like, research out there that shows like optimal whatever but I think there’s, like, certain people like Sting, I think he meditates for like 8 hours a day or something. Just like I don’t know what else he does. But I think, for me, there’s no way I could do 10 minutes. Which maybe says something about the where my brain is at focus-wise. So I don’t, I don’t really know how to answer that, I’m sure there is something out there, maybe I can do a little poking around. Lauren: I’ll look into it. Makenzie: But the idea is, you know, we come from such a society or culture where multitasking was like champions for so long. And I feel like it was, like, I always say that it was such a nineties thing that you’d write on your resume or likely early 2000 you know the “ability to multitask” whereas now you would write like “can stay focused on one thing.” Annie:  Well and I think just in mommy culture that high productivity and multitasking is still very much, like, you know, I can cook dinner, I can have a baby on my hip, I can be listening to a podcast and texting with a girlfriend and change a diaper all at one time, you know, like, and that is just the reality of our lives but being able to really turn inward and focus on what your thoughts are, what your breath is and just having that moment where you’re just doing like just one thing. Makenzie: Just one thing, yeah. Annie: Just one thing can be really good too. Awesome. OK. So is there just one thing left on the morning routine? I feel like all this is like way more doable than I imagined. Makenzie: Right? It’s less scary. Annie: Yeah. Makenzie: So the last thing is acts of kindness. And there are acts of kindness like everyone sort of random acts of kindness where you buy coffee for the guy behind you in Starbucks but I like to keep it super simple. And so this idea is you can either write a positive text message or just someone a quick email thanking them or saying how proud you are of them for XYZ which I really like and this is what they kind of talk about in that TED talk. But what I found is if you do this for longer than 21 days and I have a pretty good circle, I have a pretty decent network, but when you run out of people that you feel comfortable being like “Hey, I really appreciate you and whatever”, just that quick little message. So I like to flip that into conscious acts of kindness, not random acts of kindness, it can be but it’s also just being aware that you’re doing something kind so if you’re holding the door open for someone you could think about it as “Yeah, whatever, like I know I learned my manners” or you could consciously think of that as an act of kindness. Annie: I love this. Of course, when you said buying people coffee in Starbucks I swear I’m always the person that gets their coffee paid for and then feels obligated to pay for the coffee behind and they’ve always had like a $20.00 tab. But I do think, like, just a simple text message, it could be a really great place to start, again, low on the time investment piece so if you’re cramped for time in the morning and it already feels chaotic, it doesn’t take a lot of time but what’s the reason behind that? Is there, does that, I mean, selfishly what does it do for me to send a note to someone, I mean, I can imagine, it makes the other person feel warm and fuzzy but- Makenzie: Right, well, it’s kind of putting the acts of gratitude and the movement and or exercise we do into an exercise, so it’s combining the two things and doing something that someone would be grateful for, so it’s again, creating action out of some of the other things that we tackled in the first four steps of the routine. Annie: And so I think, Lauren, maybe you started to ask about this. Is there a reason behind the order of this or can you mix and match? Makenzie: You know what? I’m fully for mix and matching. Annie: OK. Makenzie: I think that the first one, the three things that you’re grateful for, that has had the most research behind it to show an improved mood so if that’s what you’re going for, then, which I think everybody, if you asked them, like, “Would you want to be happier?” They would say, “Yeah. Of course.” Who would turn that down? So I don’t think the order necessarily matters and some people really notice that the movement for 15 minutes makes their day better so they end up just doing that. Some people know that the meditation is what they need and so they just focus on that, so like best case scenario, we can do all five of these things. I don’t do all five of these things. I try to. I try to get as many in as I can. Annie: When I was, back to Tim Ferriss, when I was reading his little article about it, he, I think he had a really great perspective, he had, I think, five or six elements to his morning routine as well and he said “I’m shooting for 2, 3, maybe 4 and if I can do some of this most of the days, I know that I am starting the day off on a good note and if I don’t get all five it’s not failure, it’s just, like, I didn’t, you know, like it’s kind of just like a point, like I’m just trying to check off a couple, you know? Makenzie: Yeah, I love that. Annie: Yeah, which takes the pressure off, like, again, going back to that all or nothing mindset like I can’t do the whole checklist then I’m not going to do any of it, like what do you have time for? Makenzie: Right, what do you have time for and what did you find to work for you? So say you could do all five for a week but then you’re like, “You know what? I really like the acts of kindness and the exercise.” Annie: Yes, so when you started this, Makenzie, did you do it all all at once or did you start with just one thing? Makenzie: I went gangbusters and I did all five for 60 days. Annie: What was your experience after 60 days? Makenzie: That I realized how many barriers came up for me, so thinking of 3 things to be grateful for 60 days, I was like “Ugh. Am I ungrateful because I can’t think of something new?” you know and then you can spiral into this mindset that I could easily make excuses so it wouldn’t always be first thing in the morning. But I would still be proud of myself that I got it done and so what I did was I had just a square that had 60 boxes and Seinfeld did this, so he called it the chain or the link something like that and he would X off on a calendar, I think it’s the chain, how he would write every day and his goal was to never break that chain, right? And so I feel like for building a habit that you really want to create having something visual like that where it almost feels like you’re getting a gold star is, it’s helpful but since then, I don’t do all of them every day. Annie: Yeah, it was just kind of you were running a test on yourself. Yeah, we have something similar in our  Balance365 program, we have habit trackers because that visual representation, like just marking it off- Lauren: Just checking it off- Annie: Can be really, really rewarding, like “I did the thing!” Makenzie: I did the thing. Annie: I did the thing that I said I was going to do and I’m going to check it off and that checking it off feels so dang good. Makenzie: It does and like, lists, like, to do lists are real. You get endorphins. It’s the same. Your brain spikes when you’re able to check things off. Annie: Yes, here’s mine, and I like to make little boxes, Makenzie, you’re on here and I love to check off the, like, gosh, that, there’s nothing feels better than checking off those boxes or crossing that list off, like sometimes I put things on there that I’ve already done just so I can cross them off. Makenzie: Totally, I posted about this on Instagram the other day. Annie: Did you? Makenzie: I called it the Ta-da List. Annie: Yes I saw that. Oh my gosh. I love that we need to reshare that because I remember reading that, now that you said that, and it was you said “Write all the things that you have done and now it’s called the ta-da list” and I was like “Ta da! I did this!” Makenzie: And you feel so accomplished. Annie: Oh yes and that feels good and really, speaking about, in the context of routines, doing something just really small and starting your day off, like, “Look, I said I was going to do this thing and I already did this thing” and it can just snowball, like “OK, look, I already did this one thing, I can do this other thing” and I think, like, for me that’s making my bed, that’s just part of my morning routine, like it, I cannot go in and out of my room without that like distraction, like, it’s just like a visual distraction to me so if I just make my bed and it’s like, “OK, see, look like everything just”- Makenzie: Can’t crawl in now. Annie: Yeah, I mean I can lay on top of it. Pull the covers over it. Yeah but I think again, just to echo, you have some really great elements in your morning routine, just to recap really quickly one more time. You start off with gratitude, making a list of things that you’re thankful for, being as specific as possible. Spend a few minutes journaling, reliving a positive experience throughout your day. Exercise 10 to 15 minutes, just move your body in a way that feels good to you, then start, do some meditation, focusing on your breath, your thoughts without judgment, even as little as two minutes is good enough and then acts of kindness, was there a number? Did you prescribe a number or was it just? Makenzie: For acts of kindness? Annie: Yeah. Makenzie: I mean, I think that can be like a two-minute thing. Yeah. Annie: Cool. Makenzie: So it’s basically the 15 minutes of movement is the bigger one and the rest are like two to five minutes.   Annie: And so you said, in total, this takes you about 23 minutes. Makenzie: 23 minutes. Annie: To be exact. Start to finish. Makenzie: Yes. Annie: And again, if you’re a woman in a position where you already feel like your routine or your mornings are just chaotic, don’t feel like you have to add all this in at once, you can, like Makenzie did, or you can incorporate your family in on it, maybe your family discusses acts of kindness or maybe you do the, you know, I’m just spitballing here, maybe you do the journaling, you’re reliving the positive experience as a family or as, you know, like- Makenzie: I mean, get ideas from each other, like make it a group thing. Annie: Yeah. Yeah. And so you, but you know, the other elements, really, as you said they’re small time investments but research has shown that they can have the power to rewire your brain to a more positive state of mind and as you said at the beginning, when you’re in a more positive state of mind, you can fire on all cylinders a lot more efficiently, like you can, you’re just, you’re more better at problem solving, you’re, I can’t even remember all the things that you listed and then that Professor listed as well in that TED talk, which again, we’ll link but- Makenzie: It’s wild and that’s why I do really recommend, like, that I get my clients all do this routine. And they, you know, it’s like part of their first piece of homework is to implement this routine because I do believe it works because one, I’ve tried it but also because the research shows that it works so there’s a lot of information out there right and so that’s kind of how I operate in just because of my background, I think, in psych but how I seek to put the best information in front of my clients or out there is just to see what has been proven to work. Annie:  Yeah and you know what else comes to mind, Lauren, is when we were in San Francisco a mentor of ours gave us the 5-minute Journal. Do you remember that? And I think it kind of combined the gratitude, I started off. Yes, there it is, you have it and that combines a couple of the elements in there for you and it just kind of lays it out and it has AM and PM, right. Lauren: Yep. Annie: It’s clearly been a while since I did, I did start it but- Lauren: Same. Annie: You know, what I’m really honestly really excited about is I’ve already decided I’ve already I’m committed to not picking up my phone, not turning on my phone until the kids or I get my kids dropped off at school because I know, I can feel it overwhelming me in the morning. Lauren: Oh, that’s good. I might join you in that, so I’ve been wanting to put my phone on airplane mode when I sleep and then leave it like that and then I’m always worried like, what if something happens and people can’t reach me so I have to like deal with that- Makenzie: That anxiety, yeah. And that anxiety’s real. Like, I before I lived here I lived on the Island, Vancouver Island, and where I lived I got American cell reception so I didn’t get cell reception unless my roaming was on and my power went out so I had no Internet and I had no cell reception and I was just like “Huh.” You know, it was like such a weird experience to be like fully unplugged and like, kind of forced into it. I was like a 30 minute drive to the nearest town. And so it was a really cool, like almost forced experiment to like sit with how that made me feel and then realize, “I’m very anxious and do I want to feel like I’m attached to my phone?” and that was the catalyst for me. Lauren: I think the new iPhone update that I just got has like a, why are you shaking your head? Annie: Because I know what you’re going to say and I don’t like it. Lauren: You don’t like it? Annie: No, but go ahead. It’s why I haven’t updated my- Lauren: it has like a screen time thing but what it does is you can set screen-free hours so like you can set the hours where like all your apps won’t work and the only thing that works is like text messaging and phone calls and I think I might try that. Annie: I just really like- Lauren: You can override it, though. Annie: OK, that’s what I would do all the time. Lauren: Yeah, I know. I’ve done that. Annie: All the time. I really do like the idea, though, of just, I think that’s a super simple change that I could make tomorrow. Is starting my day off in a more like proactive positive mindset, instead of being so reactive and I don’t remember where I was reading this but they were just speaking about how, you know, a lot of times we have this like urgency or anxiety about responding to emails right away or whatever and oftentimes it’s like a reaction to other people’s procrastination, it’s like, you know, they decided not to email until this time and now you feel obligated and it just sets off this whole like a domino effect where you feel like you’re just, like, “I’ve got to do all this right now” versus “OK, I’m just, like, I’m cool, I know I’ve got my stuff together and I’m just going to open my phone up when I’m ready to process all of it” versus process it and then like “Oh now, I’m going to start my day with you know” Lauren: Just make sure you respond to my Slack messages, OK? I’m kidding. Annie: You’ll probably just text me or call me if I don’t respond. That’s me, I joke that I’m Team No Chill so if I don’t get a response right away, you can rest assured that I will be trying to connect with you via Instagram D.M., Facebook Messenger, text message, phone call, FaceTime. Anyways, OK, Makenzie, this was so wonderful. I, you know, I think when we think of morning routines, we do think of things like “OK, we’re going to get dressed, we’re going to brush our teeth, we’re going to make our bed, we’re going to pack our lunch,” you know, that sort of stuff and this was on a much deeper level than that. Makenzie: I’m all about that. Let’s go deep! Lauren: I really appreciate that it was quick too, like, I think of morning routines, I think of, like, you need to journal 10 pages and that just like a hard pass for me but this seems doable, for sure. Annie: Yeah. Lauren: Even if I can’t do it all all the time because I do have a 4-year-old and a one-year-old and- Makenzie: Right. Lauren: They don’t always sleep until even six. Makenzie: And I’m fully aware that like, Moms, you need your sleep, so I’m not in any way suggesting that but if you can incorporate the kids or you know, when they’re dropped off at the school then you dive into this stuff, I think it’ll, you know, I got shivers when you were talking about like maybe incorporating the kids to do that because just imagine how they’re going to walk through the world now, being grateful for things in the morning and if you start them doing that at like age 7, just imagine what they’ll grow up to be like, you know? Annie: Yeah, Lauren: Yeah. Annie: I love it and so, you know, the big takeaway is make it work for you, like these were all really good ideas and suggestions and again, make it work for you and if you want to continue the discussion on morning routines and you aren’t already a part of our free Facebook group of Healthy Habits Happy Moms please do that because I think our community is, I know our community is going to have some really great additional ideas on elements to include or how they’ve made this their own or how they made it work for them so thank you so much. This was so much fun. I enjoyed it, we will have to have you back again soon but maybe we can discuss like murder mysteries. I feel like that would really go well with Balance365 Life Radio slash Murder Mysteries. Lauren: Yes. It’s an obvious pairing. Annie: Clearly. No brainer. OK, thank you, Makenzie, we’ll talk to you later.   The post Episode 48: Getting In The Habit Of A Morning Routine appeared first on Balance365.

When the New Year rolls around, people start making resolutions to change their lives. More often than not these ventures end in failure, but it doesn’t have to be that way. It’s not a lack of willpower, motivation or hard work. It’s just the way we make resolutions isn’t always consistent with the science of behavior change. Jen, Annie and Lauren explore the three ways you can make better resolutions this year, or even decide whether you need to make resolutions at all. Resolve to join us and learn more! What you’ll hear in this episode: The best time of year to buy used exercise equipment New Year’s resolutions and FOMO The Power of Suggestion, product placement and targeted ads Jumping on the bandwagon and following the leader The perfect storm of post-holiday shame Shame-based marketing as motivation for change Ending the binge-restrict cycle Learning to let the pendulum settle Zooming out to give context to holiday eating What happens when you try to change too many things at once Outcome-based goals vs habit-based goals How to turn an outcome-based goal into a habit-based goal Resources: Five Stages Of Behavior Change Episode 15: Habits 101 – Hack Your Habits, Change Your Life Episode 22: The Oreo Cookie Approach To Breaking A Bad Habit Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: The New Year is upon us and with that comes optimistic feelings of a fresh start, a clean slate and a chance to reach our goals. Love them or hate them, it’s estimated that almost half of Americans make resolutions every year. Step into any gym the 1st week of January and it’s clear that fitness and weight loss goals are topics for most resolution makers. Resolutions are a dime a dozen. It’s sticking to them that can be difficult. Sadly, the reality is that most of us who vow to make changes in 2019 will drop them before January is even over. On this episode of Balance365 Life Radio Jen, Lauren and I dive into common reasons why New Year’s resolutions fall flat and changes you can make to help ensure you stick with your goals long after the New Year’s excitement fades. Enjoy! Lauren and Jen, welcome back! We are discussing New Year’s resolutions already, can you believe it? Lauren: No. Jen: I can’t believe how quickly this year has gone. Annie: No, I feel like I blinked and it was like the end of the year. Jen: I feel like I just saw you guys in San Francisco in February. Annie: I know, it was like a year ago. Jen: I know. Annie: That’s what happens when you see each other every day and talk to each other every day, all day. Besties. So we are talking about New Year’s resolutions because, I mean, it’s obviously a timely subject, we’re coming up on the end of the year and people are thinking about what they want to accomplish in the New Year, right? Which is ironic because we used to have a challenge, we did a challenge a couple years ago called the Screw Your Resolutions challenge and it was our alternative, our Balance 365 alternative to resolutions because so many of us have made resolutions and failed, right? Have you done that? Jen: Most people. Lauren: Yeah. Jen: In fact. Lauren: No, I’ve never done it. Jen: In fact, I keep my eye out for workout equipment around March and April because it all goes back for sale, you can get really good deals on treadmills around that time. Annie: Yes and workout clothes as well too, like they’ll go on, I mean, they’re not on sale right now necessarily but because it’s a popular time to be buying them. Jen: Yeah. Oh I mean second hand- Annie: Oh, OK. Jen: March, April, yeah people, they buy, they get the deals in December-January, they spend $2000.00 on a treadmill and then by March-April it’s back up for sale for like $400.00 So keep your eye out- Annie: Because that treadmill trend- Jen: on buy and sell websites. Yeah because you just hang laundry on it, really. This is what you do. I mean, I’ve been there as well. But I sold my treadmill when we moved last time and I really regret it because now I’m looking at getting another one. And but I’m going to wait I’m going to wait for the New Year’s resolution dropouts to put theirs up for sale- Annie: Yeah, she’s going to take advantage of you guys, listen. Jen: March-April. Annie: She’s going to prey on you. Lauren, what about you? Have you made a resolution and failed to keep it? Lauren: Yes, pretty much every year besides the last five. Yeah, it was always obviously diet exercise related too. But then I would add, like, other things so I would want to do all the things. Annie: Yep. Which we’ll talk about. Please don’t jump ahead of my outline. Lauren: I’m sorry. Annie: We’ve talked about this. Jen: I made a New Year’s resolution-ish. It was a couple years ago it was really big to choose a word, like choose a word for 2016 or 2017 whenever it was and I jumped on board that train and it was a success but we will talk about that later. I won’t skip us ahead. Annie: What was your word? Jen: It was respond. Annie: Oh, OK. Jen: Rather than react because I found myself, I was, like, you know, I could be quite reactive. Annie: No. Jen: So I really worked on that secondary, that response, when your inner B. F. F. comes in and it’s like “Whoa, chill out, girl.” Annie: Yeah, I dig that. Jen: What about this? Annie: Yeah. Jen: So then I would find, you know, I think it was 2016, I worked really hard on it and I’m much better at keeping my reactions under control and responding. Annie: Well, I’ll be interested, maybe a little bit later you can tell us about why that was so successful versus other attempts. But before we get any further, really, today we just want to discuss, I have 3 main reasons that we see resolutions kind of fall flat and I want to be clear that we are not anti resolutions, we’re not anti goals, we’re not anti action plans or whatever you want to tackle, resets, restarts, refreshes in the New Year because I’m totally one of those people that gets super excited about the idea of like a clean slate, like, that’s really, like, I love, like, a fresh start, going to start over. I get to do this. I’m going to do it right. It’s super exciting and super motivating but just the way in which people approach them and their expectations around resolutions are usually why they aren’t successful with them. Jen: Yeah we are pro, we want you to be successful. Annie: Yeah so we’re going to discuss 3 ways you can make your resolutions a little bit more successful because again, it’s not that there’s anything wrong with resolutions inherently, It’s more how we approach them and our expectations surrounding them. So let’s just dive right into it. The 1st one is that remember that you can set goals, create new habits, set intentions any time of the year, right? Like this is not something specific just to New Year’s Day or New Year’s Eve, you can do this February 1st, just the same as you can March 1st or May 15th, like whatever time you want to set new goals, you can make new goals and as I noted, I totally understand the excitement that comes when everyone else around you is doing the thing, right, and it’s contagious and I have severe FOMO, you know, fear of missing out so I feel this pressure like “Oh I want to do that, like, that’s really exciting, right?” Jen: Well, it can be like when you go shopping with your girlfriend and you only need one thing, like you need a pair of jeans and then you get in the store and your friends are like “I’m getting jeans. Oh, I also need earrings and look at this top, it’s so cute, and this coat” and then all of a sudden you’re like “Yeah, those things are so great. I should look at them too and I should get them too” and then all of a sudden you’re leaving the store with like 6 bags and you only want one pair of jeans, right? So during New Years, it’s just that you’re just surrounded by people changing all the things and you’re like “Well that is such a good idea, I need to address that in my life too. Oh and that would be great too and that too” and then all of a sudden you’ve got 10 New Year’s resolutions. Annie: And the power of suggestion, sorry, Lauren, go ahead. Lauren: I was going to say, well, even more than that for me is I would feel like I had to make a New Year’s resolution period, like even if I was not in a particular space in my life where I could handle a new goal or setting a New Year’s resolution, like, I had my daughter 5 years ago on December 1st and so it was like “Oh, I should make a New Year’s resolution” while I had an infant, you know, right, probably not the best time. Annie: Yes and I was just going to add to the power of suggestion is really, really strong around this year because Jen you’ve shared advertising budget numbers from the diet and the fitness industry, they spend a large percentage of their marketing budget this time of year. They are pushing, pushing, pushing- Jen: Yeah, the first few months of the year, the 1st quarter. I can’t remember what the numbers are, I’ve shared them on a past podcast but it’s like 65 percent of their marketing budget is spent in the 1st couple months of the year. Because yeah, so it’s everywhere. Annie: So you’re really, really, you’re likely seeing it in magazines and commercials and newspapers, in bookstores and anywhere you’re going, essentially, to buy this product, buy this program, purchase this service, purchase this membership- Jen: Yeah, people have no idea, like, how much thought goes into marketing and so even, you’ll see, I noticed in my local bookstore that throughout the year when you walk in there’s different tables set up featuring, you know, new books or this all these books on this topic. Well, in December or January the diet table comes to the very front of the store so when you walk in it’s right there. Because they know, they know that that’s the time to be selling these books, to put them right in front of you, get you thinking about it, it makes you buy them. We like to think we’re so in control of our choices but we really are not. Annie: I was just going to say that because I know, Annie 10 years ago would have walked into Barnes and Noble or whatever this bookstore, saw the diet book and “it’s like they knew what I wanted,” like, yeah, how did I, like, you know, how did they know but really? Jen: If you don’t even think about the change, it’s like, this must have always been here. Annie: Right, it’s like, like, you know, it’s like, it’s, now we have Amazon ads popping up on our feed, you know, like Lauren, you just talked about how you were, posted about your standing desk. Lauren: Oh my gosh, yes, I got this standing desk which is amazing, I got it from Costco, I don’t know if it’ll still be here when this airs but I got it from Costco and I posted about it on my story and I had never seen an ad for a standing desk before and after I posted it on my story I was started seeing Instagram ads for this other standing desk and it freaked me out. Jen: Oh. There’s so many conspiracy theories around what Facebook and Instagram listen to and of course they deny, deny, deny but that happens to me all the time. Sometimes I feel like I’m talking to a friend about something, like, in person- Lauren: Yes. Jen: Then I’ll start seeing those ads on my feed. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: There’s a meme that it’s like, of course, if I had a dollar for every time I started a sentence with “There’s a meme” on Instagram that says “Oh, oh, that’s weird how this showed up on my feed when I didn’t talk to anyone about it, I didn’t type it, I didn’t search it, like, it’s, like, there in your brains, you know- Jen: You thought it. Annie: Yes, but anyways, it is, you know, it’s kind of like when you go to Target and your kids don’t want goldfish until they see the goldfish and then you know and it’s like “Now I can’t live without the goldfish.” Jen: And you have to and there’s also food, food companies have to pay more to get their products on the shelf at eye level. Lauren: Yes. Jen: Do you know I mean because they know it leads to you choosing it more so they make a deal with, you know, whatever supermarket chain and they pay a fee to have their product at eye level, like, you really, if you know what I mean, like, it’s just there’s so much of this that goes on that consumers aren’t aware of. Annie: Right, which we kind of went off on a tangent there and I think that would make a really great podcast about how the the science and psychology behind marketing and how it works the way it does, especially when it comes to health and wellness but the point here is that you can set these goals any time of year, so even though the bookstores are pushing it or you might feel like you’re seeing these messages to get these really brand new fresh goals around your health and your wellness. It seems like it’s everywhere. Remember that you can set these 6 months from now, 3 months from now, any time a year. You don’t have to feel pressure to do it on New Year’s Day. Jen: Yes and now that we have told everybody about it, you will start noticing it and you can be more critical about it and this is called media literacy and media literacy has been found to be one of the greatest tools in preventing disordered eating and body image issues. So pass it on. Annie: Pass it on. Stay woke, right? Jen: Stay woke. Annie: OK. Number two, remember your why. Ask yourself “Does this really matter to you?” when you’re setting your New Year’s resolutions because along the same lines of getting caught up, this can tend to be following the leader, kind of like Jen said when you’re shopping with your girlfriend and in my experience, what’s personally happened to me before is one girlfriend dinner is like “Oh yeah, I’m going to join this gym, I’m going to start this program, I’m going to start this diet” and the rest of us are like “Oh yeah, like, I guess that sounds good,” like, “That sounds good to me, I’ll do that too” or like “Guess I hadn’t really given it that much thought but she’s done the research. And she seems to think it’s a good idea so I’ll do it too” and if you listen to our Stages of Change podcast with our Balance365 Coach Melissa Parker, you’ll know that skipping stages like contemplation, where you’re thinking about doing a thing and preparation, where you’re making plans to do the thing, are actually really vital to your success and this is one of the reasons people- Jen: Not skipping stages. Annie: Sorry, yes, not skipping stages. It’s really vital to your success and this is one of the reasons that people can fall flat on New Year’s resolution time is because they join the gym, they buy the meal plan, they sign up for the challenge or whatever it is they’re doing without really considering “Does this even matter to me? Is this a good time in my life to do this? Is this reasonable to think that I can do whatever is required to make this goal happen?” Just like Lauren said, like, she just felt this pressure to make a resolution and it’s like “Hey, I just had a baby. Maybe now isn’t the time to be all in on whatever it is I’m wanting to do” and if you give it some reflection and you come up with like “No, this isn’t OK. This isn’t the time, this isn’t the thing I want. That’s OK. It doesn’t mean that you’re stuck wherever, you’re out forever. It just means that maybe you need to re-evaluate and get some clarity on what your goal is and how you’re going to get there. Jen: Yeah, it often is related to, I think, feelings of guilt around holiday eating as well so, I mean, that’s why the advertising is so successful, right, because they know you’re feeling bad about all the eating and sitting around you’re doing over the holidays and that becomes your motivation, right, which is shame-based motivation, which we also know through research that shame-based motivation is not lasting. Lauren: Yeah, and I’ll add too on this that this is why we actually added a section in Balance365 it’s called The Story of You and it helps you to uncover what your values are and what your core values are and so not only does that help you when you are making changes because when you make a change if it connects with one of your core values you’re more likely to stick to it but it also can weed out this extra stuff so you can think back “Well does this really support any of my core values?” and if it doesn’t you can feel a lot better of saying like “Oh, this isn’t for me, like, it’s good for them, it’s not good for me.” Jen: Right. Annie: And circling back to what Jen said about shame-based marketing, you know, I think in the past when I have started a new diet or a new exercise routine on New Year’s Day it has usually been to combat those feelings of shame and guilt about eating too much, missing the gym because I’ve been busier than normal, the weather’s been crummy, not enough daylight, you know, whatever fill in the blank and they know this. Lauren: Yeah, that was always me, like it comes right after the holidays, right, where everyone’s crazy busy, there’s treats everywhere. And it’s just like, it’s kind of like a perfect storm, right, everyone’s doing it, you feel crappy, the advertising is being pushed to you, so it comes together on January 1st. Jen: Yeah and it’s just it’s all part of that roller coaster, though, you could start if you zoom out a bit and start identifying trends so most people wouldn’t binge over Christmas if they weren’t dieting before Christmas. Lauren: Right, yeah. Jen: And most people wouldn’t diet before Christmas if they were bingeing at Thanksgiving. Lauren: And then you wouldn’t feel crappy, right? And wouldn’t be like “I need to do something.” Jen: Right, so the period between Thanksgiving and Christmas is also a very, very popular time to go on a diet so, you know, people go into the holiday, basically, diet to counteract their Thanksgiving bingeing and to prep themselves for Christmas. Someone just said the other day, told me a friend of theirs was working on losing 5 pounds in preparation for the holidays and I’m, you know, it’s funny kind of, but you’re also like, I just cringe and think, “Oh my gosh, like, you’re basically just announcing that you have an eating disorder and that you are starving yourself in preparation for being able to binge.” Lauren: Right and that just feeds right into the cycle. Jen: Yeah and then so you binge over Christmas and then you get back on that diet rollercoaster for January and then, you know, then you restrict, then you binge and then you’re restricting for your bikini season and then it’s just, it’s just wild. Annie: And most people are trying to stop that cycle in the binge, when they’re in the binge they want to pull all the way back to restriction which I totally get, like, that seems to be, like, “Well, duh, like, I, you know, I’m either all in or I’m all out, I’m on the wagon, I’m off the wagon,” like there’s just two extremes and our approach would be to just let that pendulum settle down in the middle like, don’t pull it so far back. Jen: Yeah, so Chastity, she’s in Balance365, she said the other day is that people want to stop bingeing but unfortunately they don’t want to stop restricting. However the solution to stop bingeing is to stop restricting as well. Lauren: Right. Jen: And people just really have a hard time wrapping their heads around that. Annie: Absolutely, I mean, it can be scary because it feels like you’re letting go of some of that control, especially if you’ve been dieting for years and that’s what you know, that a lot of women feel comfortable and in control when they’re dieting, even if they’re miserable, even if they’re white knuckling it. Lauren: I remember someone when we first started doing this had been dieting for years and years and she was terrified when we told her like stop counting your points, stop counting, like, just give yourself permission to eat and she was like “I will literally start eating and never stop.” Jen: I remember that too. Lauren: And like, spoiler, that didn’t happen and now she lives a free life and she doesn’t count and she’s happy with her progress but she was terrified, like there was a real fear for her. Jen: Right. Annie: So once again we went on a little tangent. Jen: As we do. Annie: I’m just looking at our outline, like “Remember your why” and now we’re talking about restriction and it’s all connected though, isn’t it? Jen: So remember your why. So remember that you don’t want to be on the diet roller coaster and that is your why for not jumping on board a new diet in January. Annie: Well and why am I doing this again, if I am being honest and years past it would have been to try to avoid or to remove some of those feelings of guilt and shame, so it’s like “OK, I’m just going to try to regain all of my control by doing all the things and doing them perfectly” and you know, again, it just, what that does is eventually perpetuates the cycle of this diet cycle. Jen: Yeah, an alternative to feeling guilty is to say “Wait a sec, I’m human and just like everybody else at Christmas, I indulge in the holiday foods and move along.” Annie: Yeah. Because the holiday foods are yummy. Jen: They are. Annie: They are yummy. And yeah and just cut yourself some slack, right? Lauren: Yeah. Annie: OK, so we covered the first two. A, you don’t have to make these New Year’s resolutions just this time of year, you can set goals or new intentions or create new habits any time of year, then you evaluate like “Does this really matter to me? Why am I doing this? What’s my purpose? What’s my mission behind this? What am I hoping to get out of this?” and then if you come to the conclusion that “I still want to move forward. I still want to make change” and your resolutions are around things like eating healthier, exercising more, drinking less, quitting smoking then we’re talking about changing habits which, shockingly, is something we’re pretty good at helping people do. Surprise! And Lauren you have some really good information about creating and changing habits, but essentially it boils down to you don’t have to overhaul your entire life overnight because so often people go to bed on New Year’s Eve and they’re like, they set these plans and they’re going to wake up like a person with completely new habits on January 1st, like 12 hours later, new year, new me, right? Lauren: Right. That would be really nice. Annie: It would be great if it were just that simple, if all the change could happen. Jen: If worked, we would encourage it. Lauren: Yeah, right. Annie: Yeah, it’d be a heck of a lot quicker but will you share the statistics about why changing too many things at once isn’t likely to bode well for you? Lauren: Yes, so we share this all the time, actually but I find that it’s so eye-opening for people is that studies show that if you want to change a habit and you change one small thing and only that thing you have about an 80 percent chance of sticking with that change long term, which is actually really good for percentages. If you try and change too things at the same time your success rate of sticking with both of those things drops down to about 30 percent and then 3 or more changes at the same time your success rate drops to almost 0 sticking with all those changes and then the more things you add on, the less and less your success rate will be. Annie: That’s not very promising to change a lot of things at once is it. Lauren: No, so not only do you not have to, you shouldn’t if you care about sticking with it, right? Annie: Yes, so when you think about someone that wakes up New Year’s Day and is like I’m going to change all 3 of my meals, plus my snacks, plus my sleep habits, plus my water and alcohol consumption, now I’m also going to add going into the gym 5-6 times a week, that is so many behaviors that it takes to change, I mean we’re talking about, like, let’s take a look at a meal, like, what does it take to change a meal, like, it could change what you put on your plate, how you prepare your food, what kind of foods you’re buying at the grocery store, it might require, do you even go to the grocery store in the first place versus eating out, I mean, and those are the little steps that take to build a really great solid habit that so many people overlook. They just think “I’m just going to start eating a balanced breakfast, lunch and dinner tomorrow, all the time, forever and ever amen.” Lauren: And our brains just don’t work like that. It’s just the way we’re wired and you know, we, like our brains, like consistency and constants and so it’s not going to bode well for you if you try and change everything all at the same time. Jen: I don’t even like going somewhere new in the grocery store, like a new aisle. Like when I when I’m looking at recipes and there’s just some whacko ingredient, you know, that either you can’t find in a regular supermarket or I’ve just never seen that before I’m like, “Next!” Like, I just really resist. Yeah. Annie: I think, yeah, I mean, obviously when it comes to cooking I’m the same way. I see it is a recipe with more than like four ingredients and I’m like “No, I’m out.” Lauren: Thank you, next. Jen: Yeah, I know as far as our plans on expanding our our recipe collection on our website and just looking at, like, when we had a woman making recipes for us this fall and the first couple she sent me I was like, “Listen, like chickpea flour is just not going to fly.” Lauren: I feel like we should have a test where like if Annie, Lauren and Jen can’t make it it doesn’t get put out there and we would be like, “Pizza. Quesadillas. Chicken.” Jen: Yeah yeah and so it’s like, I remember I would go all in like back in my dieting days on making things like cauliflower pizza crust. Lauren: Yes I would take so long to make meals and they would always taste like crap. Jen: Yeah and so but then it’s like, you know, five years later, we’re just having pizza, like just regular crust and it’s way better. Lauren: Like, it’s fine. Jen: It’s like all those steps, right, like all those steps to make, to just get in the habit of making these healthy pizza crusts and yeah just really makes no difference. Annie: And now, yeah, I feel good just throwing some veggies and some fruit and some extra protein on my Jack’s frozen pizza. Jen: Yeah, like, I’ll just have a side of cauliflower with my regular pizza. Instead of trying to work it into the crust. Annie: I really like how you say cauliflower. Lauren: Cauliflower. Annie: Anyways, yeah, but truly I think people really underestimate how much energy is required to change just one habit and it’s definitely a slower process but what we hear from women in our community that are working through our program is that it feels effortless, they’re not white knuckling through all these changes and just like, “Oh my gosh, I hope I can do this. I just need to do this for a little bit longer before it comes automatic.” They’re like, actually, they’re kind of like looking around like “Is this really all I’m doing? Like, this is all you want me to focus on?” and we’re like “Yeah, actually.” Jen: Just this one thing. Annie: That is. Jen: Yeah. Annie: And if you’re talking about changing existing habits, which that comes up a lot around New Years resolutions too is the best way to change an existing habit is to replace it with a new one and Lauren and I have a pretty good podcast, actually two podcasts on how habits are built, like Habits 101, and then how to change or break bad habits, so if you want more information on the science and the process behind habit building and breaking bad habits, I would highly encourage you to listen to those because, I mean, I think we give some pretty good tidbits. Lauren: It’s pretty good. Annie: I mean, it’s alright. And the other thing I want to add onto that too in terms of habit changing and going a little bit slower is to discuss the difference between outcome-based goals and behavior-based goals because so often, again, resolutions seem to be outcome-based goals. I want to lose 10 pounds. I want to run a 5K. I want to compete in this challenge or whatever and it doesn’t really address the behaviors, like, OK, how are you actually going to do that? What actions are you going to take to lose 10 pounds? Like I’m not poo-pooing weight loss as a resolution goal, your body, your choice. But how are you going to lose that 10 pounds? It might be I’m going to start exercising on Monday, Wednesday, Friday for 30 minutes or I’m going to replace, you know, X, Y, Z with vegetables on my plate or I’m going to increase protein or you know, whatever that looks like, we would encourage you to write your goals based off of your behaviors, not the outcome you want, because so often if you take care of the behaviors, which we have more control over, the outcome will just naturally be a byproduct of it and so often I see women doing all the right things and they don’t get the outcome they want and then they feel like a failure, you know, they’re making all these great changes. Especially when it comes to weight loss. We’ve seen women work their butts off to try to lose weight, you know, they’re maybe exercising more, they are addressing their self talk, they’re getting more sleep, they are cutting back on sugary drinks or alcoholic drinks or whatever that is they’re working on and they step on the scale and they’re down 3 pounds instead of the desired 10 pounds and all of a sudden they feel like they’ve failed. Lauren: Right. Jen: When they’ve actually succeeded in all these areas of life that a lot of people struggle to succeed in and it’s huge, it’s a huge big deal. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Yeah, when really if you just zoom out and it’s like “Oh my gosh, look at all this great change I’ve made, I’m feeling better I’m taking better care of my body or you know, whatever it is, fill in the blank, that we just tend to lose sight of that when our goals are outcome based. Lauren: Also when they step on the scale and they see that, that they haven’t lost as much as they had hoped, they also a lot of times will be like “Well, what’s the point, right ?” and then they don’t continue doing those behaviors and it’s the continuation and consistency of those behaviors that’s going to lead to possibly them reaching their goal, right? Annie: Yeah, so the easiest way to turn your outcome based goal, if that’s what you were thinking about before listening to podcast, into a behavior based goal is to just ask yourself “How am I going to achieve that? How am I going to run a 5K? How am I going to run a marathon? How am I going to lose 10 pounds? How am I gonna?” Jen: Yeah. Annie: You know, like and then usually that how, that’s the behavior. Jen: Yeah and then realize that that outcome goal you have actually could be made up of a series of behavior changes that need to happen one at a time, therefore it may not happen as quickly as you like, which is OK. Life is long. Annie: Yeah, it’s the tortoise and the hare, right? Jen: It’s a journey. Annie: Yeah, as cheesy as that sounds, people are probably like, “Oh, come on.” Jen: It’s a journey. Lauren: Zen Jen over there. Jen: I know. Annie: Enjoy the process. Jen: Gandhi. Annie: We need one of those successory memes. You know, popular in the nineties. OK, well those are the three main points I wanted to discuss when it comes to New Year’s resolutions. Is there anything you two would like to add? Lauren: I don’t think so. Annie: OK, let’s do a quick review. First of all, before you set your New Year’s resolutions remember that you can set these new goals, create new habits, set new intentions, you can have a clean slate any time of the year. I totally understand that it’s super enticing to have like new year, new me but you can do this on May 1st just as easily as you can January 1st. The second one is to remember your, why does this really matter to you? Are you just doing this because your girlfriends are doing this or because marketing is telling you to do this or is this something that you really desire and then on top of that are you willing to do what it takes to make that happen and sometimes the answer is no, like Lauren said, you know, she really maybe wanted some of the things she wanted after having Elliott but it just wasn’t, the timing wasn’t good and honoring that, and being like, “Hey, I can just put that on the back burner and wait a little bit to start that until I’m ready to make those changes and I’m able to make those changes and stick with them” is absolutely, that’s an OK answer. Jen: I know you always say, Annie, there is more than two options, it’s not always “yes” and “no”, there’s a third option which is “later.” Annie: I would love to take credit for that but that’s actually Lauren. Jen: Oh, I’m sorry, Lauren. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Yes. I was like, as soon as you said that I was like “Oh, I really wanted credit for it because it’s good, it’s good advice, but I’m going to be honest, that’s Lauren’s advice.” Yes, later is always an option which I think is, that’s goes back to your maturity about responding, Jen, versus reacting, you know, so many people can get reactive during New Year’s resolutions like they feel compelled to do something just because everyone else is doing them and it’s like, if you just have pause, like think like “Do I want this? Was I considering this before I heard Susan over here talking about her weight loss? Like. Jen: I always think of my inner BFF like she’s, she just like, she comes to me in that first second I react and then give it 20 seconds and my inner B.F.F. is sitting beside me like “Hey, girlfriend. Calm down.” Annie: That first voice in me though, she can be really kind of grumpy sometimes. Jen: She’s my naughty friend. She’s naughty. Annie: Let’s do it! Yeah! Is this is code for Annie and Lauren? Jen: There’s Annie and then there’s Lauren. Annie: Annie is like shoving you into the mosh pit at a concert, like “You can do it!” and Lauren’s like, “I don’t think that’s a good idea.” Jen: Let’s stay safe back here. Annie: Both are needed sometimes, OK? And the last point we just discussed today was that you don’t have to overhaul your life in one night, that to think that you’re going to go to bed on December 31st and wake up 8 hours later a completely different person doesn’t usually happen for people and that’s not, that’s not because you lack willpower or motivation or determination or discipline, that’s just the way behavior change works and it takes time and slowing down the process to focus one thing until that becomes automatic and then layering on brick by brick is usually the best place to start and we have a saying too that we stole from James Clear that “Rome wasn’t built in a day but they were laying bricks often” Lauren: We changed it to make it our own. What’s our new one? Beyonce wasn’t built in a day. Jen: Beyonce wasn’t built in a day. Annie: Beyonce also wasn’t built in a day. So if you could just lay a brick, you know, if you have these big goals 2019, 2020, 2021, start with a brick, really and lay your strong foundations, good solid habits, one by one and you’ll get there eventually and hopefully you’ll wake up one day and you’ll have this big beautiful Coliseum and you’ll be like “Oh, that was easy.” Jen: Exactly. Exactly. That really is how it happens. Annie: Yeah and I know that’s probably sounds a little bit ridiculous or a little bit too good to be true but you need to be able to play the long game for behavior change, you have to have big picture and patience which, I’m saying that to myself right now. I’m talking in a mirror. And yeah, hopefully this helps people build some better resolutions. I would love to hear what people are working on. So if you are working on something for the new year and you want to talk about it, please join our Facebook group, it’s, we’re Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. We have 40,000 women in our private Facebook group and if you need a place for safe support, reasonable advice and moderation, this is your place to go. Jen: I got a huge compliment yesterday. I was at a cookie exchange with 10 women and not many people know about my our company locally where I live and actually a couple women from my community just joined and the one woman said to me yesterday “Your group is the first place I’ve ever found that actually promotes you giving yourself grace.” Lauren: Aww. Annie: Can we like get a testimonial from her? Jen: I’ll ask her. She’s in Balance365 now. Annie: Oh that’s wonderful. Jen: She would be happy to. Anne: Yeah, I think it’s a pretty sweet place. We have amazing women, it’s really, it’s not it’s not us, it’s our community that’s made it such an amazing place to be, they provide support, applause and encouragement and tough love sometimes when it’s needed. It’s a great place to be, so find us on Facebook at Healthy Habits Happy moms You can also tag us on social media on Instagram and show us what you’re working on, show us your more reasonable New Year’s resolutions. Jen: Yes. Lauren: Yeah, I like that. Annie: Yeah, me too. OK, anything to add? Jen: No. Lauren: No. Annie: We’re good to go? Alright, well, we’ll talk soon, OK? Lauren: Bye. Jen: Bye. The post Episode 46: 3 Ways To Improve Your New Year’s Resolutions appeared first on Balance365.

The holiday season can be tough, with so many opportunities for unwelcome commentary on our bodies, diets and exercise routines from well-meaning relatives. What’s worse, our kids are exposed to it too. Jen, Annie and Lauren get together and discuss how to set boundaries this holiday season so you can enjoy your family time together, free from the discomfort of unwanted opinions and negativity. Learn how to be the change you want to see in the world and find peace among the chaos of diet culture. What you’ll hear in this episode: The damage of body shaming discussion on children The normalization of negative weight related discussions and body judgments in popular culture Reasons to set boundaries around negative body talk around your kids A comparison of the diet industry and tobacco industry’s tactics to normalize something that is damaging Statistics around the prevalence of disordered eating What is your grocery checkout stocked with? Preparing your kids for the road How to set boundaries in a clear, kind-hearted, non-confrontational way How negative body talk is like second hand smoke The role of media literacy in filtering negative messaging Prevalence of weight loss advertising and negative media messages What to do when you don’t feel comfortable setting a boundary Getting curious about where people are coming from with body commentary The discomfort of change Talking to our kids about the diet industry, body image and media messages Raising critical thinkers Free To Be Talks Workshops Effecting change at the individual and community level   Resources: The Habit That’s as Toxic to Children as Smoking Five Stages of Behavior Change Episode 13: How Your Body Image Impacts Your Children with Hillary McBride Free To Be Talks Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: Thanks for joining us here on Balance365 Life Radio, I am really excited about this episode and we actually jumped this topic to the head of the line because we felt it was just that important, especially this time of year. Today Lauren, Jen and I discuss the importance of setting boundaries with your friends and your family as it pertains to discussions about bodies and behaviors. Women’s appearance, exercise routines and eating habits seem to be free game and constantly open for discussion and debate. Conversations about who’s gained weight, who’s lost weight, how Aunt Jan has given up carbs or the latest supermodel that got her body back so quickly after baby number 3 can unfortunately be heard across the globe. After working with thousands of women, we know that with the holiday season many of us might find ourselves on the receiving end or at the very least, within earshot of comments of this nature. This unwelcome commentary can be shocking, infuriating but most importantly, it can be really harmful, especially to the little eyes and ears that are watching and listening. On this episode, we dive into the importance of women and mothers setting boundaries around diet talk and body shaming, share ideas on how to respond and address these comments if and when they happen and finally, how to help you and your children process those same situations. As always our free private Facebook group can be a great space to continue the discussion if you so wish, you can find us on Facebook at Healthy Habits Happy moms. We’ll see you on the inside. Lauren and Jen, we are all three together, it’s been a while. Lauren: Hi! Annie: You’re just here for the party, we know, Lauren and Jen, how are you? Jen: Good, I really missed recording with you guys. I was away and you did like 3 episodes without me. Annie: I know, you you were on a little family vacation. Jen: Yeah. Annie: Looked fun, we missed you though. Jen: Yeah, I missed you guys too but it was like my first holiday in, with my kids, in years so it was a lot of fun and I have to say, for the parents listening that it is a whole different world to go on holidays with children who are 5-6 and 9 than babies and toddlers. Lauren: That’s really good to hear. Annie: So there’s hope. Jen: Oh yeah, well it just got, for us, it got to a point where I was like “We aren’t traveling anymore. I can’t do this. I can’t take 3 car seats and a double stroller and a diaper bag on every holiday. It’s too… I might as well just stay home because it’s more stressful on holiday.” So now it was just surreal to just be sitting back and watching my kids handle themselves, like carry backpacks and yeah and just like not have myself loaded down, you know, like, I just had a backpack too. It was amazing. Annie: I heard a comparison made that there’s a difference between vacation and trips and you take a trip with your family. It’s not, it doesn’t always feel like a vacation, it’s sometimes a lot of work. Jen: The other thing when you have little babies and toddlers is we would always do like AirBNB apartments because we just felt like we needed the space and with kids getting up in the night we, you know, we just needed like different rooms etc and but that meant that we were also cooking and cleaning up after ourselves on “holidays” too and I would sometimes be like “Why did we leave home? Like, I just feel like I’m in the kitchen all the time.” So on this trip we only stayed in hotels and we ate out for every meal and I can’t even tell you how great that was too to not cook for 10 days. It was amazing. Annie: Yeah that sounds really nice and the weather looked so nice. Jen: Yeah, it was beautiful. Annie: Yeah, but we’re happy to have you back- Jen: Thank you. Annie: Because we have a really good topic and I think it’s going to be best addressed and best covered with all three of us on board and this is actually kind of a combination of two topics that we’ve discussed either in a podcast or a blog post that we kind of married together and we actually are doing kind of a last-minute recording because we wanted to squeeze this topic in before the holidays because what comes up so frequently in our community, which if you’re not a part of it,it’s Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook, over 40,000 women, it’s a great place to continue the discussion, ask questions get support if you need it but something that comes up in our community often is how to respond to comments about your body or behaviors and how then to set boundaries with family members and with it being the holiday season, it seems like we’re exposed to so many more opportunities to have those comments thrown at us, right? And it’s a really common experience with women in our communities that are our bodies and our behaviors, what’s on our plate, how we are exercising, how we’re talking, how we look, always seem to be free game for discussion and debate and it’s really regardless of your body shape and size because prior to this, when we covered it in a podcast the first time, I did a poll in our community and women of all shapes and sizes has experienced comments and remarks like this and it can not only be shocking but infuriating and they can also be harmful to everyone within earshot, right? Jen: Right. Annie: and Jen, you made, it was, we’re approaching the two year anniversary of the blog post that you wrote that was amazing and it’s still on our blog today, but you made an amazing analogy of the harmful effects of body shaming, disordered eating behaviors, negative body talk as it relates to smoking, can you share a little bit about that? Jen: Yeah, first of all, it’s wild, two years ago. Annie: I know. Jen: And so we are talking about the same things, which is great, we hope it’s sinking in, two years later, so I am the analogy queen in our community and I find that sometimes drawing parallels in other areas of life is what really gets the stuff to stick with women and the other thing, when we talk about disordered eating, I just want everybody to know that in, like, eating disorder, I guess, literature and circles, dieting is considered under the realm of disordered eating, so dieting is disordered eating, so when you are talking about dieting around the Christmas dinner table or Thanksgiving dinner table, you’re actually talking about disordered eating, your disordered eating behaviors and 100 years ago it might have been shocking that somebody would would speak up at dinner to say that they’re purposely starving themselves or cutting out carbs but over the years, it’s become normalized, so it’s part of our normal conversation to discuss these things. So what I compared it to in this blog post was that at one point, smoking indoors used to be completely normal. My step mom talks about how she had my older sister in hospital and they whisked the baby away after and the first thing she did was light up a cigarette in the hospital. And everybody had an ashtray right beside their hospital bed and so this was about 40 years ago. Today, that would never fly. So the damaging health effects of smoking and secondhand smoking is well researched, we know the effects, smoking is banned in public spaces, we keep it away from children. I don’t know what the rules are down there but in Canada, it’s illegal to smoke cigarettes inside of a vehicle if you have anyone in the car that’s under 16. And we have family members who smoke and I don’t think they would dream of smoking inside my house, however if they came over and tried, I would immediately, I would have, you know, no issue with saying “Oh, can you please take that outside, this is a smoke free home.” So the parallel I drew is that we also know the effects of discussing bodies and disordered eating. We know that they have serious long term effects to your own personal health but also to the little ears or the children in the room listening to all of this and setting a boundary with friends and family around smoking is probably not a problem for anyone listening, however it still feels extremely uncomfortable to set this boundary around talking about weight, bodies, disordered eating, dieting but if you really put that into context, “Hey, we know this is extremely harmful.” And if you’re having trouble setting the boundary for yourself, just really think, like, now is the time that you need to step up for your kids and say “Hey, no this is not OK to discuss around our kids. If you want to talk to me about this later, that’s fine but you know, there’s little ears in the room.” Annie: And oftentimes, you know, the difference here is that unlike smoking, many people aren’t aware just yet of the harmful consequences of this type of talk and how contagious it is and how detrimental it can be to the eyes and ears that are watching and listening and I think if people knew, which is part of our mission, right, to draw attention to the negative consequences of dieting and body shaming and weight talk, if people knew like they know the harmful effects of smoking, you know, maybe they would be changing the conversation. Lauren: Yeah. Jen: Absolutely, so it’s sort of like, in the “olden days” they talk about how the big tobacco companies went to great lengths to hide the negative, they knew what the negative effects of smoking were and they went to great lengths to try and sort of cover that up and they were lobbying government et cetera, et cetera, they would have doctors as their spokespeople saying smoking was safe and that, basically, is happening today with diet companies. You have, you know, huge diet companies, they have crazy popular spokeswomen or spokespeople, I should say, fronting their brand but the research hasn’t caught up with the public yet. It’s not common knowledge yet so, but we know, it is well researched, we have decades and decades of research about how harmful dieting is, how harmful body shaming is especially for children. Like, body based teasing is one of the biggest contributors to future disordered eating/eating disorders. So the other thing is that I think I feel like awareness around mental health is just coming to the forefront, I guess, where in years gone past we haven’t talked about mental health as much. The focus really has been on physical health. And now we’re starting to see more talk of mental health and taking care of our mental health and what that means for people but I don’t think talking about mental health is as widely accepted yet either, so it’s quite a big conversation. This podcast, what we wanted to cover and talk about in just sort of bring to people’s consciousness is it’s OK to set boundaries in your home around what you expose your children to. Annie: Right, because it’s, you know, essentially in that blog post, which we can link in the show notes, along with all the research or just a handful of the research that we’ve looked at and essentially, you know, kind of compares it to being trapped in a smoky room, you know. Jen: Right. Annie: When, you know, when you are filling your home over the holidays or your environment with that sort of talk, I mean, it’s, the parallel is there, right? And it’s not it’s not one time that’s going to make or break but it’s that constant exposure, the fact that they don’t have a place to process this, that they can’t escape, that they don’t have an alternative, that there’s no discussion about, you know, the consequences and why you would do this or that, like that’s really what we want to begin to bring to light, right? Jen: Yeah and children are listening, like they want to listen, right? I catch my oldest son, he’s 9, I see him all the time, I can just see him, he’s paying attention to what the adults are talking about, he wants to know, he’s interested, he’s learning how to be an adult, right? And so this is something that we pretty much hand down to our children as acceptable and OK. So what we see today and we see this a lot in our Facebook group and just on social media in general, you hear a lot of women talking about, or sharing stories of somebody commenting about their body and how offended they are, whether somebody asks them if they’re expecting or if they’ve lost weight or what diet they’re on and women are saying, “Hey!” You know, they’re starting to notice, people comment on our bodies all the time but this is learned behavior, right, this isn’t some evil person, you know, or mean-spirited person popping out and just body shaming. It’s learned behavior. We make it acceptable at an early age so anybody who’s making those comments today probably grew up in an environment where it was absolutely OK and I think we’re still in that environment. If you are checking out at the grocery store and it’s full of trashy magazines around you, you’ll see that, we have, it’s open season on women’s bodies and men’s to a degree. You might have a National Enquirer there talking about whose, which celebrities have “let themselves go”, what weight this celebrity is, what weight that celebrity is, who has “gotten their body back after baby”, you know, the quickest. It is open season and that’s the kind of stuff that goes on around us that might not even be, you know, in our consciousness, right, so if you start paying attention, you’ll see it’s not just happening around the dinner table at Christmas, it’s happening everywhere and at some point you need to step up and say “Hey this is not OK” and you need to go to your children and say “This is not OK. This is not what our family values and just because, you know, Uncle Ted, you know, talks about women’s bodies that way, it is absolutely not OK” and you need to set that boundary with Uncle Ted or whoever your uncle is or Aunt, and let them know that’s not OK and if that has to happen in front of your kids, all the better. Annie: I just want to circle back, just in case people aren’t familiar with some of the statistics out there that I feel like we share frequently but you can never hear these enough, in my opinion but I think as you said the research is out there, it’s our kids are listening and some of the statistics about it are just shocking, I mean as it pertains to adult women, approximately half of women engage in disordered eating and risky dieting practices, including one 3rd of women report purging. Jen: Right. Annie: 75 percent of women report that their weight interferes with their happiness, which, I’ve been there, that’s been me at various points in my life. A study of 5 year old girls, a significant proportion of girls associate diet with food restriction and weight loss and thinness, like, how do they know this? Where are they learning this? Jen: Right. Absolutely. Annie: 37 percent of girls in grade 9 and 40 percent in grade 10 perceive themselves as too fat, again, where are they learning this? Why do they think that? More than half of the girls and a third of the boys engage in unhealthy weight control behaviors, for example, fasting, vomiting, laxatives skipping meals or smoking to control their appetite. Again, like, they’re listening, they’re watching, they’re observing. Jen: Absolutely. Lauren: Mhmm. Jen: And by the time a girl is 17 to 18 years old, that stat is up to 80 percent, so 80 percent of 17 and 18 year old girls believe they need to lose weight, like these aren’t like, you know, these aren’t like, outliers. This is the majority of our population and again, this is all learned behavior. Annie: Righ. And it’s, you know, we have a little bit of control over here and that’s why we’re in the business that we’re in because it’s not just enough for the three of us to parent our kids, like we need everyone on board to really make a really big impact. Jen: Absolutely. Annie: So that’s the part of our mission, to like, create this big wave, this ripple effect, like everyone’s on board and everyone’s promoting healthy balance lifestyles without all this other unnecessary, unhealthy behavior. Jen: Totally, I look at my local supermarket and the changes that they’ve made to have a healthier physical environment for my children so when I take them shopping there are, they’re called, like “junk food free aisles” so that you don’t have to deal with, like, your kid seeing the treats and wanting, you know, asking for treats so you can choose to go down those check outs instead of the ones that are lined with candy and also, in my local supermarket, they have a basket of fruits and vegetables for kids to just take for free to eat while you’re shopping and so I think “Wow, look at these changes they’ve made for our children’s physical health, right, taking away the less nutritious food and offering more nutritious food. So now let’s take it a step further and how can they support my child’s mental health?” So it’s one thing to have an aisle that’s free of junk food, but now I have to take my kids down this aisle that is instead stocked with magazines full of body shaming and my kids can read now and so I’m going, which is worse? You’ve taken away the junk food, you’ve replaced it with this basically, junk for your brain. Annie: Right. Jen: Essentially, yes. Annie: But, you know, as we said, I remember when you wrote this blog post and you and I had this conversation and I think we came across the saying “Prepare your kids for the road, not the road for your kids” because this is unfortunately part of our culture, you’re going to be outside of your bubble, especially in the holiday season or you know, even as summer approaches, you know and more skin is shown and you’re at barbecues or you know, year round, it happens, you’re going to be outside of your little bubble, inside of our community it’s like, this stuff doesn’t happen, right? Lauren: Right. Jen: Right. Annie: But when we leave our homes it’s like, or we go to the grocery store, it’s like “Oh my gosh, it really is everywhere.” It’s going to happen. So what do you do when it happens? You set a boundary. You can set a boundary and as you said, it can be so uncomfortable to think about setting a boundary for yourself and speaking up for yourself, but if you put it in terms of like, “I’m standing up for my kid” then it’s like- Jen: Totally. Annie: As a mother it’s like, “Oh”, it becomes so much easier, right? Jen: Yes, then it’s like “Roar!” Annie: Mama Bear, right? Mama lion. Jen: Exactly. Annie: Yeah, so, you know, setting boundaries, let’s talk about how to do that because it can be uncomfortable. It can be scary but I think you, in that blog post again, you gave a couple very concise, clear, non-confrontive, kind-hearted responses and I think you could just put these in your back pocket, you can put your own twist on them. The first one is “Hey, I understand that you’re struggling with your eating behaviors right now, can we save this conversation for when little ears aren’t around?” and I think that’s perfect, you know, so I picture myself at the buffet table, you know, and my Aunt Jan’s putting stuff on her plate saying “I shouldn’t have this many carbs and I’m just so excited to eat this and I’ll just have to work it off afterwards and it’s going to go straight to my butt” and you know, like that sort of talk. Jen: Yeah, total disordered talk. Annie: Right. Jen: Totally normalized in our culture. Annie: Oh yeah, like, I mean, 4 years ago I probably would have been like “Ahahaha!” Jen: Right. Annie: Now I’m like “Oh no, no, no, no, no, no!” Jen: Yes. Annie: “Could we save that conversation for when little ears aren’t around” and it’s, the three of us have had this conversation so many times, we feel very comfortable being like “Yeah, I’d be happy to talk with you about how to balance your meals, more sustainable practices for your health and wellness and how that talk isn’t really serving you, like we could talk that all day.” Some of our listeners might not be willing or interested in having that conversation, that’s totally cool too, but I think that just acknowledging little ears are listening and we’re just going to zip it, right now, right? Jen: Yeah, like if somebody, I mean, I know we all probably swear a little bit but if somebody like came roaring into the kitchen and was just like dropping F bombs every second word and your kids are sitting there you might be like, ” Hey, there’s little ears here, maybe we could cut that back” Except Annie’s giggling, because she’s like, “No.” Annie: Yeah, yeah. Jen: Don’t tell me how to talk. Lauren: Well, Jen, I think the second hand smoke analogy was so, so good because I’d like to coin the term now “secondhand dieting” because like, that’s basically what it is and if you’ve listened to the podcast you’ll know I started dieting when I was 12. Jen: Right. Lauren: And it’s because secondhand dieting was constant. It was a constant topic of conversation in my family, especially on one side compared to the other, but it was it was constant and I would never, you know, blame my family for any of that, everyone’s, as we know, we’re doing our best, no one’s doing it on purpose, but it’s how, it’s how, like, my grandma’s generation and my mom’s generation was raised. Jen: Absolutely. Lauren: And they didn’t know any better, just like before we don’t know any better about smoking. Jen: Right. Lauren: And so when I think back to that, like, I would sing the Jenny Craig song like- Jen: Oh my goodness. Lauren: Like I knew the Jenny Craig song, right? Jen: Let’s hear it, Lauren. Lauren: 1-800-Jenny-20. That’s all I remember but like I would sing it and I just cringe now thinking about all the stuff I listened to and that’s kind of what I draw from, if I ever have to set that boundary for my kids, like my daughter just turned 5 so I’m at the point now where it’s going to, I’m going to have to be more intentional and more careful about it moving forward and if you’ve listened to the podcast you’ll know last year we already had like our 1st incident with that at preschool, talking about, you know, good food versus bad food and I had to start that there earlier than I even thought I would, but at this point going forward, it just gets, you have to be more and more intentional about it. Jen: And it’s everywhere so as Annie had mentioned before, like you can’t, you can, media literacy is one of the most powerful tools in this sort of disordered eating/negative body image crisis we are in with our children and I can’t always be there to filter for my kids but I can teach them how to filter, right? Lauren: Right. Jen: And so one thing I noticed, we haven’t had cable for years and last Christmas we were up at the ski hill here where we live and we were staying there over the Christmas period, staying at a hotel and we would watch T.V. in the evenings and I was shocked at how many diet commercials came on what we’re watching T.V. and I probably wouldn’t even have noticed this 5 years ago because it was just part of my life, it’s part of everybody’s lives, where now I’m so conscious of it and suddenly I’m going like “We are muting the T.V. during commercials because this is ridiculous.” Every single commercial break there was a Weight Watchers ad and just horrible toxic messaging. I remember just. in particular. one woman saying “I can eat whatever I want and still lose weight” and I was like, “Oh! My kids are taking this BS in.” Like, so then we started muting it during commercials because I just, I just do not, and I’m like, you know how kids are, they just, like, stare at a T.V. and they’re just zoned out, whether it’s the TV show or the commercial and I was just like, this is not something I want them hearing over and over and over every commercial break, it’s like, they’re like hypnotized by it, being brainwashed. Annie: And I think that goes back to, you know, just that awareness that you said before, Jen. Sometimes you don’t know how well prevalent it is until you start listening and you just, like that might just be your first step, you don’t have to take any action, maybe you don’t set a boundary this holiday season, maybe- Jen: Right. Annie: where you’re at is you’re just starting to pay attention and you create awareness and you know, you know how, like, when you’re pregnant or maybe you’re trying to get pregnant and all you see is pregnant women? Jen: Right. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: Like, that’s what this is. Jen: Yeah it is. Annie: The power of suggestion. Once you see it, it’s everywhere. I mean, I swear, I tell people, like, “What do you do for a living?” “Oh, I’m a personal trainer” and it’s like, all of a sudden they go to confession. Jen: Right. Annie: It’s like, “Oh my gosh, I haven’t been to a gym in years, and I ate, oh my gosh, I need to get back and I need to do” and I’m like “It’s OK, I’m not, like, you don’t have to repent your sins to me.” Jen: Right, right. Annie: And it’s just, yeah, like it’s the magazine titles, it’s the conversations with your hairdresser when you’re getting your haircut, you know, the woman that’s evaluating your food at the grocery checkout line, like “Oh is this a good food? I heard this was healthy for you.” You know, it’s like, it’s just everywhere. Jen: You can’t, you have to be really, you have to be, and that’s why it’s so important to hand those tools off to your kids to be critical thinkers about it, right, so my son when we were on this holiday, we’re talking about at the start of the show, we were watching, again T.V. in the hotel room and this, we’re in San Diego, California and one thing I’ve noticed from previous trips to California is weight loss advertising is cranked up there compared to where I live in Canada, which might just be the culture of California, so it’s like, it’s on the radio, everywhere and I just found it, like, “Whoa! it’s definitely not as prevalent where I live” so the commercial that came on was like a freeze the fat thing, like, it’s like a, I don’t know if it’s like a liposuction procedure or whatever, it’s just a commercial and it came on and I was like “Here we go!” and my son was like, “This is ridiculous. It doesn’t even work.” I was like- Annie: Nice. Jen: Yeah! So you can, right, you can teach them and I try and just say to my kids like, you know, we obviously don’t shame people who are dieting or whatever, you have to be careful of that too, as well, but I just say, like, “You know that stuff doesn’t work and there’s a lot of companies out there who will take advantage of people who are struggling and with how they feel about themselves but you know this stuff does not work and there’s a lot of fake things that go on behind the scenes that trick you into believing it works but it doesn’t.” So, yeah. Annie: Well and to add to that, just as there are people in my life that I love dearly and I look up to in many ways, they also smoke. Jen: Right, absolutely. Annie: There’s a lot of great people that are also stuck in diet culture and body shame and weight talk and that doesn’t mean that they’re bad humans or they are terrible, you know, like I love them just as much and they don’t need shaming. Jen: No. Annie: You know, my mom smoked for years and I hated that element of her but I loved her, I hated that behavior, I should say, but I love her dearly. Jen: Well, you know, if you go back to our stages of change podcast where people are with smoking is OK, the awareness is there, it’s not good for you, the tough part with smoking is that it’s an addiction, right, so they are constantly and I mean, I think pretty much all smokers are in the cycle of change, most smokers are probably thinking of quitting all the freaking time, it’s just so difficult. Where, when it comes to dieting and disordered eating, there’s not an addiction there but if you’ve listened to previous podcasts about the diet cycle, it almost mimics one where you just can’t stop trying to diet, like, you just keep going back to it, you get stuck in that cycle but most dieters are not even, the awareness isn’t even there that this is something that is unhealthy for them and that they could even stop doing it. It’s just part of their everyday life, like, that’s what we do, we diet or we don’t diet, we’re on the wagon or we’re off the wagon and that’s what their whole life is, right? So when you are setting this boundary with people, just keep that in mind, like, this could be brand new information to them, it likely is, that this is, that your family doesn’t diet, your family doesn’t body shame, your family doesn’t sit around talking about your own weight or other people’s weight and it’s harmful. It’s harmful to you and it’s harmful to children to hear ,that will be brand new information. So if you decide to set that boundary, go gentle, as Annie said, you don’t have to set that boundary, that is an option, I would personally talk, if I was in a situation where I felt very uncomfortable setting that boundary, I would make sure to speak about, I would speak to my children about it later “Hey, you know, when Grandpa was saying this or that, like, just so you know ,that’s not what we believe in, that wasn’t accurate.” Annie: You’re jumping ahead a bit. Jen: Oh, I’m sorry. Annie: You just got so excited. No, I think that’s a great segue, just to circle back to setting boundaries, you know, like comments, if you need some actual statements, I always have a hard time putting words on my emotions and my feelings, so I like to have these one liners to put my back pocket that I can practice saying and it can be, you know, like I said before, “Can we save this conversation for when the kids aren’t around? My child can eat what he or she wants, eyes on your own plate, please. Can we change the subject? Simple as that and then as far as comments made to you about your own body or about someone else, whether they’re in the room or not, I mean, one of my personal training clients talks about how her father always comments about women in the media and their bodies. Jen: Right. Annie: Like it doesn’t matter because somehow they are immune because they can’t hear us and they’re celebrities and like they don’t count. Jen: Right. Annie: But it’s still worth addressing in my opinion but the first step is decide if you want to have that conversation or not. And sometimes you may not want to, it might be the wrong time, the wrong person, you don’t have the energy and in fact, Lauren and I remember you talking about a family member that you were just like, “This just isn’t a conversation I’m willing to have with her at this point in my life, in her life,” do you remember that? Lauren: Yeah, there’s a lot of my family members actually that I do not really speak about nutrition or whatever unless I’m asked and so as far as I go, it’s like a boundary unless I’m asked about it. Annie: Right. You know, and then the second option, I think, too is, if someone makes a comment to you, I think Jen, you gave this suggestion a couple times to be curious and just simply say, “Why do you ask that? Why do you say that? Can you tell me more? That’s interesting” and just see where they’re coming from and see where that goes because so often, you know, someone makes a comment to me and again, years ago, you know, 4 years ago Annie would have been like “Ugh!” and I would have been offended and embarrassed and ashamed and angry and infuriated but so often, like, that’s not usually how conversations, like, end well. Jen: Yeah, or “Why does, you know, why does that matter to you? Why is this relevant? How does that affect your life?” Annie: Yes, am I reacting this strongly because I’m worried that there’s some truth in what they’re saying, is this about my own body shame and my own negative weight talk and all that, you know, is this the baggage I’m carrying or is this theirs? And now I’m clearly, like, they make a comment about a body or my body and it’s like “What Susie says about Sally says more about Sally than Susie”, like they’re separate, like that’s on them and yeah, that has nothing to do with me. But decide if you want to have the conversation, then be curious, you know, I think that’s a great way to, if you’re not super confrontational, if you don’t want to be confrontational, like, “Why do you say that? Like, that’s interesting, why do you ask that?” and then find your voice. You know, Jen, I think we’ve talked about, like, you tend to be a little bit more like, “No, I don’t want to do that, like, we’re not going to talk about that, let’s change the subject” where I would be like, “Hey, look, squirrel! How about the Cubs?” like, you know, like something like just totally redirect or you could be super sincere and honest and say “I’m sure you’re coming from a place of love and you care but your comments are hurtful, your comments are alarming, they’re concerned, fill in the blank.” Jen: Or “I’m really uncomfortable discussing my body or other women’s bodies in a setting like this or period.” Annie: And you know what? It might get awkward. Jen: Yeah that’s the the thing but- Annie: It might get a little like- Jen: But change is uncomfortable, right? So, you know, we talk all the time on this podcast about needing a cultural shift or we hear it all the time on social media, society needs to change. Well, guess what? We are society and change is uncomfortable so this is going to be uncomfortable but it doesn’t have, discomfort doesn’t mean mean-spirited, discomfort doesn’t even necessarily mean confrontational, it just means uncomfortable and I think if women paid attention, they would actually see that there are many areas of our lives where women take on discomfort in order to not make the people around us uncomfortable and I’m at the point where I’m like, “Why? Why do I have to take on that discomfort all the time?” Annie: Yeah. And as we’ve said numerous times already on this episode, if you can’t find the courage to do that for yourself, maybe you can find the courage to do it for your kids. Jen: Absolutely. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: And if you’re not there yet, if you’re just like creating awareness and like, kind of getting your feet under you and kind of deciding what, like, where, how you feel about your body, where you stand, like, that’s really cool too, like this wasn’t an overnight process for the three of us. It’s not like we just jumped from 0 to 100 and now we’re, like, “Chop chop! Like, no, we’re not going to do that!” Like, this was like a, this is a process- Lauren: Definitely. Annie: Where we grew in our comfort to have these conversations. Jen: Is there time for me to share a quick personal story about just this as a reality? Annie: Yes. Jen: So this is based on my own history of very disordered eating and lots of weight talk with my sisters and the effects of that. So my kids are a bit younger and I’ve been able to be on the ball with them from a younger age which has been great. My sister’s children are older, my younger sister, my older sister’s children has children as well, but I’m speaking about my younger sister’s children and so her daughter at 9 years old, she came to me once I got to the house, she came to me and she had just sprouted up. And you know, different kids have different growth patterns but what with my nieces she kind of plumped out first and then she shot up. So what happened when she shot up is that her jean shorts became too big on her around the waist and it happened in just a matter of a couple of months so I get there one day and she comes up to me and she’s like “Auntie, look, Auntie, look!” and she was trying to show me the gap between her denim and her waist and I realized she’s trying to show me and basically bragging at validation and connect with me that she has lost weight and she’s 9 years old but I also was hit with this just feeling like I wanted to throw up, thinking of all the times I had shown up at their door to talk to my sister and the first thing out of my mouth was “I lost 5 pounds last week” or “I put on 5 pounds” or, and my sister’s oldest daughter had just grown up with her aunt, who she loves and admirers and looks up to so much, I’m pumping my own tires here but I’m pretty sure that’s how she feels about me. Annie: Naturally. Jen: She has grown up with that “cool auntie” speaking like that around her so of course she’s now coming to me at 9 years old and trying to connect with me over it the same way she sees her mother and me connecting and she’s just trying to be part of our crew and I was devastated and so not OK with it and so had to take a hard look at myself and go, “This is not OK .This is not OK that our family talks like this and I have been a big contributor to it and I will not do this anymore.” So that was about 5 years ago now, so very happy to see it going in the other direction and what my sister says now, because now we’re these empowered women fighting diet culture, she can’t believe that her daughters have gotten to the age they have and not talked about dieting with her yet, where my sister remembers dieting at a way younger age than even her girls have, so there’s hope, there’s hope here, right, we can make a huge impact. Annie: Absolutely and you know, I just had a little lunch talk a couple weeks ago and it was with a group of about 10 or 12 women, mostly moms and they cannot, they kept expressing concern about how to say the right thing, like, they’re so worried about saying the right thing when it comes to body talk and how we talk about how to take care of our bodies and how to respond when they’re talking about weight loss or how their body looks or they want to wear makeup or they want to wear certain types of clothes. They’re just so worried about saying the right thing that they sometimes don’t say anything at all. And I think, you know, when they were asking about what to do and how to approach this, the first thing that came to mind was what Hillary McBride and her Mothers Daughters and Body Image podcast which, if you haven’t, if this is a topic that concerns you, if you haven’t listened to that, please listen to that, but she pretty much hammers home that perfection, in this situation isn’t required, it’s intention and consistency that make the most difference and so you don’t have to say the right thing all the time. It’s really your intent to have the conversation behind it and just as I said, you can just be curious about when people make comments about your body you can just be curious about what your kids are saying, like, how does that feel when this happens? How do you feel about that? Did you enjoy that food? How’s your body feeling? How did you feel when Aunt Jan or Uncle Ted made that comment about me or about your body or when Gramma said that about your plate? Did you think about that at all? Like, it can just be as simple as that. Jen: The thing is if we talk about diet culture brainwashing children and us, we don’t want to be on the other end, brainwashing our kids, right? Like I want to raise critical thinkers and the way to do that, I think, is to ask them these questions and ask myself these questions and maybe and you can even process it together, right? Like that is totally OK. Annie: Yeah, but I think the key is, you know, is setting the boundaries when you’re ready and when you’re comfortable and then to keep having these conversations with your family members, with your community, with your kids, like, they’re hard conversations, they can be uncomfortable, it can be a lot of emotional ties and baggage that come along with some of these conversations but it’s worth it. It’s totally worth it and I just want to kind of wrap up by just acknowledging, again, that we’ve kind of touched on this but there’s work to be done kind of on sort of 2 levels here: at the individual level, you know, like our own selves deciding what our own biases, acknowledging those, creating awareness about our own behaviors, our own talk, you know, like, how many days, how many times a day do you talk about someone else’s body or are you reading about someone else’s body or are you listening to comments about someone else’s body? At one point in my life that consumed me. I talked about other people’s body all the time. Jen: Right or what articles are you clicking on where, you know, there’s those little like click baity ads at the bottom, “How this mom got her body back in 3 weeks” or “What this mom’s abs looked like at 4 weeks postpartum” and then the picture just like cleverly hides and you’re like, “I gotta click on this.” Lauren: That was me constantly reading about every single diet. Jen: Yeah, right, where now I just, you know, I know it’s all B.S. and I know the more we click on it, the more we are telling these marketers that we want to see more of it, right and they’ll just keep showing us more, so I’m like “Nope” and on Facebook when I see stuff like that I report it as inappropriate. Annie: So yeah, there’s definitely work to be done on an individual level, you know, our own behaviors, our shame, our conversations that we’re having and then at a community level, you know, and community can mean just in your own home, you know. That’s- Jen: Yeah, so speaking of that, I’ll just share what I’ve been up to since my holiday is that I just completed my Free To Be Talks facilitator training and I’m going to be teaching body image workshops in my children’s school and I am trained to be able to talk about this to kid boys and girls in grade 6, 7 and 8 and so that was me, that was on my vision board last year where, you know, we were doing all this work through Balance365 and I was like, “You know what? I really want to be out there in my community and I would love to start talking to children about this when they’re younger.” So I just did that training and that’s my way of contributing and being part of the conversation in my community and I would encourage anybody who is interested in that to to check out Free To Be Talks. It’s a nonprofit organization out of Vancouver, Canada but when I was on the training there was lots of women from the States on the training as well who will be doing this in their schools but you can and that’s a thing, like don’t, do not, you know, we read these stats to you guys and it’s shocking and you can sometimes feel powerless, like how can I even stop this? But you can and you can make a difference in your community and if all of us had that attitude, the change would come. Annie: I just get chills and for verklempt, like we could do this, guys,! Yes! Jen: Yes! Annie: I think that’s awesome, snaps for Jen. Jen: Thank you very much. Annie: Yeah, anything to add, Lauren? Anything you want to add before we wrap up? Lauren: No, I think you guys hit it all, I know I was just kind of a more quiet bystander, but you guys were just right in your groove and I think you guys hit it out of the park. I’ll just note that as someone who experienced secondhand dieting, and then the path that it led me down, that fuels me to be the change and not be afraid to stand up and say “Hey, this isn’t OK, we’re not going to talk about this.” Annie: Oh yeah, I think that’s, I mean, I don’t want to speak for you, Jen, but I think that’s why the three of us are in the business we’re in, we’re trying to be the change that we needed when we were younger. Jen: Yeah, totally. Lauren: Yes. Annie: Like, the voice, the message, the solution, the opportunity that we needed when we were younger and that’s, you know, how we are paying it forward, so to speak and I’m going to start crying so I’m going to stop talking. Yeah, so anyways, just to wrap up, when you’re out of your bubble this holiday season, moving into the new year, moving into summer, spring and summer, don’t be afraid to have a conversation. It doesn’t need to be confrontational, argumentative it could just be like “Hey, could we change the subject. I don’t want to talk about this when my kids are in earshot and you know, just start creating awareness and shifting the conversations that you’re having within your home and with your girlfriends and with your family can make a really, really big impact. To me, it’s, I picture waves of an ocean and you know, what one wave just kind of moves right into the other and it’s like, we just all connect to each other, eventually. Lauren: Yep. Annie: And if we’re all in the same page, if we’re all moving the same direction, we can make a really, really big impact on our own lives and more importantly, the lives of our kids so they don’t have to grow up in diet culture and negative body image and weight talk and all that junk. Jen: Yes, we do not have to normalize for them what was normalized for us. Annie: Alright, awkward ending. Lauren: As usual. Annie: You know what, that’s going to be on my topic, on my to do list today, so find a way to wrap up the podcast that’s not extremely awkward. Jen: That’s not like, “OK, bye!” Lauren: Okay, bye! Annie: No. But, alright, thanks guys. Lauren: Love you, bye! Annie: It was fun, kay, bye! Jen: Bye. Lauren: Bye. The post Setting Body Talk Boundaries Over The Holidays appeared first on Balance365.

Annie and Lauren interview Registered Dietitian Marci Evans to answer the question once and for all “Is sugar addiction real?” Marci delves into the science, the psychology and the keys to feeling less out of control about sugar and more in control of your life. Strap in for the latest and greatest in peer-reviewed research and what it all really means. What you’ll hear in this episode: Clickbait headlines and sugar research Is sugar addicting? Sugar and Cocaine: How alike are they? Abstinence from sugar and its impact on cravings What rodents taught us about sugar Finding food peace in the messy middle Black and white thinking and sugar The difference between diet rules and noticing what feels good for your body Stopping the cycle of all or nothing with sugar Self-inventory for vulnerability factors Exploring “problematic” foods again Building on quick wins How restriction impacts the brain’s response to sugar The importance of learning to be self-aware with the kindness Your inner dialogue and its impact on your success in reaching your goals The biggest lie of diet culture The truth about your body’s natural tendencies Building self-trust Repeat customers and the diet industry Being responsible consumers of nutrition information Resources: Marci Evans Blog on sugar   Learn more about Balance365 Life here Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or Android so you never miss a new episode! Visit us on Facebook| Follow us on Instagram| Check us out on Pinterest Join our free Facebook group with over 40k women just like you! Did you enjoy the podcast? Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Play! It helps us get in front of new listeners so we can keep making great content. Transcript Annie: You feel completely out of control when it comes to candy and cookies, craving sweets even when you’re not hungry. Maybe you found yourself wondering if you’re addicted to sugar. Scour the internet for the term “sugar addiction” and you’re likely to come up with an overwhelming amount of information, much of which seems to contradict each other. Our culture has a pretty extreme view of sugar and unfortunately, the diet and fitness industry is full of pseudoscience and fear-mongering headlines claiming sugar is addictive as cocaine but what’s the truth? Is sugar really addicting? We invited internationally recognized dietitian Marci Evans on today’s podcast to discuss just that. Marci and her team help clinicians and clients alike develop smart, enduring strategies for overcoming eating disorders, disordered eating and the backlash of chronic dieting. Marci, in particular, has done extensive research on the tenants of food addiction after noting that the concept didn’t square with her clinical experience and yet she felt it captured how so many people feel in relationship to food. On today’s episode Marci, Lauren and I discuss what the past 5 years of research and experience have taught Marci about sugar addiction and steps you can take to feel more in control of your sweet tooth. Enjoy! Marci! Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us. I’m so happy to have you. Marci: Oh, it is my absolute pleasure to be here, to come to chat with you ladies about a topic that is near and dear to my heart. It is just an absolute pleasure so thank you so much for inviting me to join you. Annie:  Yeah, we’ve been waiting for a while. I think we started emailing months ago and it just schedules just didn’t work out until now. Marci: Yeah, I know. You guys are very, very patient which I appreciate and I had to get through one more big talk before I could put anything else on my plate so I’m glad, I’m really glad to be here and hopefully the wait will be worth it by the time we wrap up this I know what will be a really interesting conversation. Annie:  Yeah, I’m sure it will be. Lauren’s here with us too, Lauren, how are you? Lauren: Hi! I’m good. Excited to be here. Annie: I was just going to say, I bet you’re super stoked- Lauren: Pumped. Annie: Because here we are discussing one of the most talked about topics in our Facebook community, which if you aren’t a member, it’s Healthy Habits Happy Moms on Facebook. We have almost 40,000 women in our private Facebook community and something that comes up a lot is “Is sugar addicting?” And this is a highly debated topic on the Internet and especially in the fitness and nutrition community and as Marci has noted in her blog post, which we will share a link of the show notes to her website, if you just do a google search for “Is sugar addicting?” or “sugar addiction” you’re likely to come up with a wide range of answers from “Yes, absolutely, it totally is addicting” to “No, that’s just a load of crap” it can be really confusing to the mainstream listener, reader, consumer and Marci, this is why we have you on because you’ve done a lot of extensive research on this topic. So how did you get interested in the topic of food addiction or sugar addiction? Marci: Well, I think you nailed it in a couple of different ways. The first is that many people have the experience of feeling really out of control of food and feeling really chaotic, so the term ‘food addiction’, which has gotten written about more and more just in popular media, feels like it’s very resonant for a lot of people and it’s sort of like “Oh gosh, food addiction. There’s something about that feels true for me.” And so it’s something that I have seen a lot of people come to me in my practice with, so it’s something that is definitely coming up in my work in a day to day way, just like you ladies are describing, seeing this in your Facebook group and so I think that that’s a piece of it and then the other piece of it you also alluded to is that there’s been more research on the topic of food addiction and you know, it’s definitely a double-edged sword that this research makes it into the mainstream media. It’s great that the research is being done, the problem is that the way that it often gets written about in the media is not totally accurate to the science and so you see a lot of compelling headlines that you know draw people in and you know get a lot of clicks and get a lot of post likes and are resonant to how people feel that it gets really pulled away from what the actual science says. So I became interested because I learned about it several years ago in a training that I went to but then it was just so relevant in my day-to-day work with my clients that I was like, “I can’t not look more into this. This is just like staring me in my face.” Annie: Yeah and I am, you’re so right because I do think when I’m thinking about all of the headlines and the information that I have read it is very kind of fear mongering, you know, or polarizing or it’s very extreme. We call that click bait, right?  Like, you, they’re just trying to get you to bite, right? Marci: Total clickbait. And then they have these pictures of the brain that look very, you know, very smart and you know, “Wow, look how the brain is lighting up” in these comparisons to, like, drug pathways and so it becomes very tantalizing info that people can get really pulled into for sure. Lauren:  And I think it’s become just “common knowledge” that sugar is addicting, like, if you ask just random people on the street “Have you heard sugar is addicting?” I’m willing to bet, you know, many, many of them will say “Yes.” Annie: Yeah, OK, so are we ready to just dive right in? Like, can we just, can we just go? Are we ready? Marci: We can absolutely go for it. Annie:  Alright, Marci, is sugar addiction a thing? Marci: So the state of the research tells us that sugar is not physiologically addicting. That’s the bottom line so looking at what happens in our bodies when you eat sugar and is there a chemical response that pulls you in to have it more and more and more and that you become sort of this slave to sugar and that the only way to kind of stop yourself is that you have to go cold turkey and that is 100 percent not borne out in the research. Annie: But people have to still keep listening to the rest of the show. Marci: People are going to be like “Who is this chick? Get her off. Yeah, done.” Annie: Like, “Oh I got what, I got the answer I was looking for, it’s not a thing” but you have you have some points of reference that I think are really important to follow this up. Like, to date there is no scientific evidence that sugar is addictive but that’s not exactly, like, there’s more to it than just that and I love that you say, you kind of touched on this earlier, that a person’s sense or feeling of being out of control around sugar or any food in general is not the same thing as having an addiction. Marci: Yes, that distinction to me is everything. That is like where I press pause and spend so much of my time, whether I’m teaching professionals or talking with individuals or nonprofessionals, is that there is the science part, right, that I love, that looks all about the brain wiring and what is happening in a person’s body in, as they’re eating sugar or not eating sugar, right, and we talked about that and kind of gave you the cold, hard truth, sugar is not addicting. However, the other piece of it that is equally important is a person’s experience and what happens inside of them when they eat sugar or when they deprive themselves of sugar, which is really kind of the key part that we’ll be, I think, spending quite a bit of time on, that creates feelings that are really relevant, right? So when people feel chaotic, when people feel out of control, when people feel completely preoccupied and obsessed, those things are very, very real. Those things are important. Those things we have to understand and it’s your guys’ job and it’s my job to help my clients through those experiences and they’re actually very common but those experiences aren’t rooted in an addiction but they are very, very, very important and the feeling can feel like an addiction. Lauren: Yeah, for sure. Annie: So, Marci, are you talking about when we hear in, you know, magazine articles or blog posts, when we hear the response that like this when people eat sugar that their brain lights up like they’re on some, a drug similar to like cocaine, is that what you’re talking about? Marci: Yeah. And I can speak to that if you want me to kind of tease that apart some, those headlines. Annie: Yeah, let’s just jump right into it. Let’s go. Marci: So, unfortunately that is a classic example of total misinterpretation of the scientific research and actually, what we see, when this was published, that sort of initial headline of look at these brain scans and look at this area of the pleasure centers of the brain and this is, you know, more powerful than when a person does cocaine, you know, these really, really, like you said, clickbait, fear mongering type of post was a misreading of the literature from a couple of cardiologists who wrote this post in response to the research, but when you look at the research and what the neurobiologists actually explain is that we have natural reward pathways in the brain. They are there. They are meant to be there. There’s no getting rid of them. They are actually good and helpful things in keeping us alive that we do certain things as humans and we get a reward so that we do them again. So we have natural rewards for things like eating, things like sex, things like holding a baby and feeling really good about it, listening to music, connecting with friends. We get these positive feelings and vibes and actually these neurotransmitters in our brain get produced so that we do those things again because from an evolutionary standpoint, these are the things that have kept us alive. These are the key things that have kept us thriving as a species. And so what we’ve learned is that when a person abuses a non-necessary substance, say, like cocaine, cocaine actually comes and hijacks those completely normal, healthy reward pathways that are supposed to be there. So this idea that “Oh my gosh, you see this lighting up when we eat sugar. This is evidence that you’re an addict. That is not at all what it is saying. You’re seeing normal responses in the brain. We can talk a little bit more about that in terms of what’s normal and what might be problematic in showing these brain images but it’s the drugs that come in and hijack the normal pathways that we get really, really concerned about but those pathways are there. They’re meant to be there. They don’t mean you’re sick. They don’t mean you’re flawed or that you have some big problem. Annie: Interesting. So it was just some misinterpretation of research that caused this whole, like, flood of “sugar is the equivalent to cocaine.” Marci: That’s exactly right. Lauren: And I think it’s, it can be comforting to someone too who feels so out of control around food or sugar to be like, “Oh well, that explains it. I’m addicted, right?” But I think we’ll see that that kind of takes your power away because you aren’t addicted and there are things that you can do to not feel so out of control around those foods. Marci: That’s exactly right and even to add on a layer of complexity is that the notion that I am addicted encourages people to abstain from those foods, right? Well, if I am an addict, the only way to manage this is to totally take these things out of my life and here is where this is probably the most important thing I have to offer to each of you who are listening right now is that that abstaining or we might call it restriction of those foods actually leads to changes in your brain that have a stronger pleasure response that gets lit up and actually encourages you and compels you to have those foods even more. So when the researchers looked at this phenomenon they used rodent models and what they did is they had these rodents and they took the sugar away and restricted them and put them on a diet and it was those rodents that had an amplified response in their brain to sugar and it was those rodents who demonstrated this same chaotic “addictive” behavior, binge-like behavior but when they had the rodents where they didn’t put them on a diet and they didn’t restrict them, they had completely, what we would say, just totally normal responses to sugar and none of the addictive-like behavior and so the problem with the addiction model is not only that yes, totally takes your power away but in addition, it’s going to create the exact scenario that you most fear and it’s going to create the behavior and the changes in your brain chemistry that cause you to feel more out of control and cause you to feel more and more like an addict. So it’s like this double bind, it’s like a double whammy. Annie: And Marci, does research support that for just any food, labeling any foods as bad or addicting or off limits or is this just sugar. Marci: Right now, the research is looking specifically at sugar because the researchers, what they’re trying to do is to get more and more specific and this is where that research on food is much more complicated than the research on say, alcohol or drug abuse because we as humans don’t eat singular substances like table sugar, right? For the most part, we eat things like ice cream and cupcakes or Doritos and so researchers have tried to get as specific as possible to understand is there a specific ingredient that folks are addicted to and this is again where the research right now really points to, you know, the flaws in the research is like, we don’t even have a specific ingredient that we can look at and point to and say that is the addictive substance. Annie: This is something that we talk about frequently in our community and our program Balance365 that this idea of the restriction leads to bingeing or more, it sets you up to be more likely to binge, because so often what we see in our community is that women want to stop the binge by going back to restriction. They’re like, “Oh, I ate too much sugar, got to get rid of all the sugar now!” Marci: Yeah, I have to fix it. Annie: Yeah, instead of stopping at the restriction, sort of resetting or reframing your perspective on sugar. Instead of just saying “I’m all out. I can’t have any.” Try to have it in moderation might reduce your likelihood of binge. Marci: Yes and I feel completely empathetic to anyone who identifies kind of with what you just described because I think that it’s human nature that when you feel like you’ve swung to one side of the pendulum and part of this, you see, I’m a neuro science geek, part of this is just how we’re wired to be as humans. We want to put things into boxes and we tend to be very black and white thinkers so that when we move to one extreme it is very, I think, natural and compelling to hold yourself to the other extreme as a way to find a counterbalance but what happens is that you just sort of envision a pendulum, for most people, they end up swinging between one extreme to the other and it’s not very natural for most people to say “Well, how do I respond to this chaos? I try to find a happy medium somewhere in the middle, right?”   If you just had a day or days or weeks of feeling out of control and you’re bingeing and you’re feeling awful. It is very natural to want to kind of pull over to that other side to detox, to restrict, to put up the food rules because when you’re feeling that way it feels awful and you don’t want to feel that way again and imagining dipping your toe into that middle ground can feel very, very foreign and very scary and for a lot of people, they’re like, “That just doesn’t even seem to make sense. You see, I can’t be trusted. I need to put up all the rules and all the walls and all the barriers.” Lauren: You know, it’s interesting that you say that that’s how humans are wired because we call ourselves, like, we work in the messy middle and it’s so hard to get people to kind of reframe and kind of get it and like, we were talking about before the podcast, it takes people you know a few months sometimes of following us to kind of like indoctrinate themselves in that messy middle. Marci: Totally. I love that you guys call it the messy middle because that’s usually exactly what it is. It doesn’t stay messy forever though. It does not stay messy forever but the process can be a bit messy. However, I do find that when I talk to my clients and I really, I’m sure you guys have seen this too, is that when you talk with them about their experience and their stories and what it’s been like for them over the years, that their lived experience is this sort of swinging from being on a diet to them feeling out of control and then needing another diet and then feeling out of control and so their lived experience really points to and supports what we see in the literature and in the research and why so many of us as clinicians are advocating for that messy middle because their lived experience and the research shows us that restrict-binge cycle is not their fault, it is not a failing, it’s not because they’re screwed up and doing it wrong. It’s because it’s a set up and so those skills for navigating that middle ground can feel really tough at first but that’s where the sweet spot is, like, that’s where you find food peace, like, that where you find sustainable patterns of living. Annie: That is what we share in our community often is that it’s, like, a practice and it’s a skill and it’s just a matter of practicing that new skill over and over and over until that becomes your new normal because it’s not, like, that, like you said that is not natural for me, it’s not natural for a lot of women. We’re so used to, like, being on the wagon or off the wagon, we’re in, we’re out, we’re perfect, we’re failing, we’re right, wrong, black, white, like, so to live in this like gray areas, like, “Oh my gosh, what are the rules? What am I doing? Like, there’s no boundaries, where are the boundaries?” Marci: Like, right, “Just give me the guidebook. Tell me exactly how to do it, I can follow it.” Annie: Yes, which in the in the fitness industry, that is so common, I mean, which I think was which is why our program is such a breath of fresh air, of course, I think that, but it’s, you know, we’re like trying to help you navigate that for yourself versus just telling you what to do so you can hopefully go on to create “boundaries and rules” that work for you and I mean, if that’s what you need, that we don’t have to impose our values or morals or rules on to them. Marci: Yeah, that’s awesome and I think that finding that middle space that is is something, I mean, it sounds like what you’re really describing is something that’s really internally guided rather than something that’s externally imposed and that can feel really, really scary but the amazing thing is is that as you go through the process of really kind of tuning in and really listening and really kind of taking a break from all of that external noise is that you can find patterns and habits and boundaries that are truly sustainable, you know, I wouldn’t say I have a rule of eating every you know 3 to 4 hours, it’s not like I have to follow this rule but I know that when I eat every 3 to 4 hours I feel much, much better and so that’s how I eat most of the time but it’s not a rule that’s been sort of handed down to me that you have to follow it and that’s kind of the difference. Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Yeah. Annie: OK so to circle back then as it pertains to sugar and this sense of feeling out of control when it comes to sugar consumption, how do you break that cycle of, like, you’re either all in and you’re eating all the sugar or you’re not eating any sugar at all for 30 days or, you know, whatever it is, do you have some guidelines that you use with your clients or that you would recommend in general for how to stop that mindset, or reframe that mindset or stop that cycle? Marci: I do. I do and what I want to say before I dive and sort of offer some tips is to say this process is a process and we’ve already been talking about that, be really patient with yourself and I would also say if you can have in your mind the idea of approaching your experience with a lot of curiosity and just kind of wonder and, “Oh, isn’t that interesting?” in trying to find kind of that neutral detective voice that will help you learn along the way because it’s going to be bumpy, you know ,I love your messy middle, like, it’s going to be bumpy. It’s not as if I’m going to give you a formula and then you’re going to take the formula and you’re like “Boom, got it. No more problems with food, right?” But allow yourself to kind of take some of these ideas, try them on, experiment with them and use them to give you more data and more information but the number one place that I encourage people to start is to do a self-inventory and to take some time with the self inventory, like, do it over several days or a week or so. And ask yourself, what are the things that leave me vulnerable to “overdoing it with food right” so it could be a zillion things, like sky’s the limit, so you could think about “Well, it’s maybe related to my food environment or maybe related to how stressed out I am or my mood or how much my kids are bugging me or how much, you know, my job is completely overwhelming me or the time of day or the amount of food that’s available to me or how well I’ve nourished myself that day, how over-hungry, you know, how much maybe I’ve been following a diet that actually doesn’t meet my nutritional needs. I’m constantly undercutting in an attempt to lose weight but then go over-hungry and that’s when I find myself really having a hard time with food.” So trying to be as extensive as you possibly can in creating this inventory of what I call your vulnerability factors and then you can start to have a little bit more of a nuanced conversation in your own mind around “I have a hard time with sugar when, you know, I’m really, really tired, I’m sleep deprived, I haven’t eaten enough and I’ve got high levels of stress,” right? So you’re starting to really get to know yourself rather than saying “Oh, I just don’t have any will power” or “I’m an addict therefore I have to get rid of this,” you’re really inventorying to get a sense of “Oh these are the things that leave me really, really vulnerable to having a tough time” and the other thing that I would add in is, that’s really important and can take a little bit of time to get to know, is “What are my thoughts and beliefs that I tell myself about my relationship to food in my relationship to sugar, specifically? What is the dialogue in my brain? What thoughts do I tell myself? What do I believe and where did those beliefs come from? Are those beliefs that I learned when I was little from my own mom? Are those beliefs that I was taught from going on a zillion diets? Are those beliefs, you know, that I learned from, you know, my girlfriend down the street?” So really be very, very critical and I would say, like, literally journal this out, try to do it like on a piece of paper or if you have an online journal and really get out of your own head “What do I tell myself and what do I believe about sugar and where did those beliefs come from?” So starting with those two inventories is a really, really important place to begin. Annie: I really, really like both of those suggestions. “What you talked about, that vulnerability Journal is kind of similar, in our program we call it, like, triggers, you know, like, what are you doing, where are you at, what are you feeling, what are you thinking, what did you just do, who are you with?” Because all of those things can really impact our behavior and especially when it comes to food and fitness and I know you know we’re just coming off of Halloween season so I know a lot of people have been having candy in the house, you know, it could just be as. I mean not as simple as. but that could be an element into how much sugar you’re consuming, like, is it just a matter of convenience, like, it’s staring you in the face all day, right? Marci: Totally. Exactly, exactly, you have huge amounts of it surrounding you and I love that you guys use the language of skill building because that is the exact language that I also use with my clients, where I say “Learning to eat in a peaceful balanced way is like building a skill” and the cool thing about viewing it as a skill is that a skill is something that can be developed but if you are someone, and you are very good company if you are, who has spent a lot of your life in a dieting mindset, it’s going to take some time to rebuild that skill of balanced, peaceful, non-chaotic eating and so I am really a proponent of saying “Let’s take just little baby steps here.” Now, I do know that there are some practitioners and other people who said, you know, the best thing I did was just surround myself with tons of sugar and tell myself I have total permission to eat this food and to really listen to my body and that it was rough in the beginning but then I really got to a place where I really believed it wasn’t going to go anywhere and then I stopped bingeing on it, however if that works for you, go for it, don’t let me stand in your way. My experience is that for most people what ends up happening is they end up just feeling really out of control for a stretch of time and it feels like more proof, “See, I can’t be trusted, you see, I was out of control” and so it just feels like more evidence kind of building up and so that tends to not be the approach I go with most of my clients, that with most of my clients we’re like slow and steady, we are, you know, I always use the bike analogy. We’re starting off on a balance bike and we’ve got, you know, a bike that’s maybe a little bit bigger, a little bit, you know, a little bit more like an adult bike and then we move into something that’s more advanced and then we’re really going on the unicycle but we don’t just hop on the unicycle right in the beginning, right? We’re going to start we’re just taking these little baby steps and the point is to begin to have more regular access to the foods that you have trouble with but to do it within the framework of really honoring the things that make you particularly vulnerable. So one of your biggest triggers or one of your biggest vulnerabilities is, maybe, what do you guys see actually? What do you notice? I should ask you, in your Facebook group and you know your audience, what would you say is one of their biggest vulnerabilities? Lauren: I would say skipping meals or not eating enough throughout the day. A lot of people find themselves then bingeing or overeating on sugar and snacks at night or in the evenings after they put their kids to bed. Marci: Totally, so that’s perfect. So I would say if you have a day where maybe you haven’t adequately nourished yourself when you skip some meals and it’s evening time, I would say that’s not going to be the most helpful time for you to practice eating something like Halloween candy in a way that’s going to feel not totally chaotic, right? It’s like, well, that’s not really a fair experiment because we knew that was probably a set up from the beginning and so I kind of take that inventory and say “Let’s try to eliminate as many of those vulnerabilities as possible. And start having little exposures where you’re giving yourself permission to have these foods, low vulnerability, low trigger, challenging those old thoughts and beliefs and developing those coping skills to help you manage the craziness that is life and all the stress that life brings and then it’s repeating those things over and over again. So I had a client, I mean, I’ve done this was so many clients, she had a lot of trouble, one of her hardest foods was Nutella and she’s like “Marci, I’m telling you, every single time I bring Nutella into my house it’s gone in a couple days, like, I just can’t handle this Nutella.” And so the way we ended up going about it was we ended up deciding to integrate it at the very start of her day and so when she would come see me, we did this so slow, like we literally did this over months and I would keep it in my office and I know, some of you might be thinking “Why don’t I have my own dietician” I bet you could be really, really creative. She would come to my office, she would bring a balanced meal and she would do some Nutella with the rest of her meal and then we would note, “What are the thoughts that you are having? What kind of tools and skills can you use to kind of help you through your day because you have a busy day, what’s your food plan, like, making sure you have enough food to get you through your day.” And we sort of charted through all her vulnerabilities and then we did that again and again and then we sort of upped the ante where she took some of the Nutella and she repeated that on her own and so then we just stepped it, stepped it up and as she was developing more skillfulness and more ability, then, I mean, again it wasn’t for a couple months, then she brought the Nutella into her home but we started it with just the tiniest of baby steps. Lauren: I love that. Annie: This is a, yeah, I do too and this just feels like, my background is fitness, but it’s like a lot of times people just need a win, you know, and they kind of just build their confidence slowly and slowly and slowly and over time it’s like, you know, that quote “Little by little you travel far.” It helps to build that self efficacy so that they can believe like “Oh my gosh, maybe I can do this,” but to go from 0 to 100 can be really overwhelming like, “Oh my gosh, no I can’t ever have Nutella in my home and not eat the whole jar” like that’s just, that doesn’t seem even doable but I bet you know now she’s like “Oh yeah, maybe I can.” Marci: Exactly. Annie: or “I am.” Marci: Yeah, “I am.” Yeah it’s really cool because I no longer work with this client because she’s doing so well and she doesn’t need me anymore and that’s always my goal and absolutely, she has all of the things in her house but it took us really breaking it down and it’s exactly like you said, it was her having a little win to be like “Oh, maybe it’s not the sugar, maybe it’s all of the beliefs that I have about sugar and the ways I’ve approached it before and their reaction to all of the deprivation.” Like, I just cannot overstate the implication of having dieted and having that restriction mindset really sets us up to go to the other side of things. Like, it’s really interesting when you look at the brain scan literature when they look at folks who have a history of dieting and restriction and they show them images of what scientists call like, you know, palatable foods or we could say, like, high sugar foods or high fat foods, we might think it was “naughty foods” or “bad foods” is that their brain regions of pleasure light up even higher when you compare to people who don’t sort of hit that profile of long dieting history and so it takes time that gradual permission for that hyper response to get dialled down but it’s the only way for it to dial down. So if you keep going back to dieting and keep going back to restriction it’s going to keep that elevated response, but if you can end this gradual way, practice it and your body and your brain get used to “Oh, this food isn’t going anywhere.I have this food in my life. It’s not as if one time a year I get to eat X, Y and Z. Then that hyper response calms down and we can see kind of like the charge around food sort of settles down and it becomes more neutral. Annie: And that just, I mean, that to me sounds like freedom and such peace to be able to live, you know, or just be wherever you are and know that like you don’t have to hold yourself back or you’re just going to be a maniac on, you know, a pizza buffet or an ice cream sundae, that you can just coexist with the foods you love and enjoy them in moderation. Lauren: Yeah, another thing I really loved about your example is about going through your vulnerabilities, like that client within the Nutella probably had to build some other habits to kind of reduce those vulnerabilities, is that right? Marci: Right, you’re spot on, totally. Yes, she had to kind of identify what other tools that I need in my tool box that help me to manage when I’m feeling really overwhelmed with work and when I’m feeling overtaxed or when I have my inner critic and my inner critic is really, really loud so we had to do a ton of work on helping her to notice how is she speaking to herself and what are the consequences and what’s the likeliest outcome when you continue to speak to yourself in that mean, critical way and I would say that’s a huge, huge cornerstone of the piece, huge cornerstone of the work that I do with my clients is cultivating a couple of skills and so these are some of the broad, brushstrokes skills that I will mention for you and mention for your listeners is developing the ability to be self aware but with kindness. As well as this skill of being able to be compassionate with yourself and you guys probably see this all the time, people have a really hard time being compassionate with themselves because they feel like if I’m compassionate I’m just myself slack, right, and I’m never going to make that forward progress. It is the opposite, the more critical and nasty you are to yourself the less likely you are to achieve your goals and make positive change. If you can talk to yourself like you would to your child or talk to yourself like you would to someone you love and care about, your best friend, those are the same things that help you to remain neutral and curious and that enhances your ability to make sustainable changes and so I spend so much time helping my clients notice and shift the way that they interact and talk with themselves and really working on the inner dialogue. Annie: We have a saying in our community that gets dropped frequently and I absolutely love it, it’s “we take great care of things we love and your body is no exception” but I think you are so right, Marci, that when women think about being kind to themselves and speaking nicely to themselves or coming from a place of love, they’re worried that they’re going to get complacent or that they’re going to just, like, I won’t have a desire to go workout if I’m, like, too nice to myself or I won’t have a desire to eat vegetables if I don’t beat myself up and shame myself into eating this salad with no dressing or whatever it is. And that’s just not been our experience. Marci: Yeah it’s not, it doesn’t surprise me that that’s not been your experience because it’s fundamentally untrue. So one of the things the biggest lies of diet culture is that our nature as human beings is to lay on a couch and do nothing but eat ice cream and that we are constantly having to fight against that nature. That is not true, actually our bodies and systems create vibrancy, they crave balance, they crave things that allow us to feel well and we know that if we are polarized to any extreme we aren’t going to feel well. And so our bodies are constantly trying to move us towards homeostasis so we can flip that narrative, we have to live that narrative from “If left to my own devices, I’m going to be a total just slob on the couch” and say “You know what, actually, left to my own devices, I want to feel really good and I know that if what allows me to feel really good is to be in a pretty balanced space.” If you can imagine eating only gummy bears and bagels for the rest your life, you can imagine that probably wouldn’t feel well, right? If you can imagine eating only spinach and chicken breast for the rest your life, like, that also doesn’t sound so great and so being able to trust that our inner nature and our core souls, actually creates movement, creates balance, creates health, creates vibrancy, all of those things, that you can begin to relax a little bit and be like “I don’t have to ride myself so hard, you know, I trust that my inner core craves healthy themes but all the dieting that we do that stamps out that inner flame and when we move away from diets we find that we have it naturally and intuitively inside of us.” Annie: Absolutely. Lauren shares with our community often, like, people that say that, you know, they say what you just said, like “If I listen to my body, I would just eat ice cream all day, every day” and Lauren is like “Have you tried that? Like, have you actually tried that? Like I think you think you would feel good but I don’t think you would feel good if you just did that all day every day” and people are like “Actually, you’re probably right, like, no, that wouldn’t leave me feeling good” and that this idea that, you know, like you said, if left to my own devices, like, I might actually take good care of myself, especially if I think about it in terms of how I take care of my children, how I take care of my spouse or my partner or what I would say to a girlfriend if she missed a workout or if she overate, you know, some ice cream. I wouldn’t beat her up. I wouldn’t berate her. I wouldn’t say “You’re lazy, like, get your act together.” I would be like “Hey, that’s OK. Like, now we know too much ice cream leaves us feeling yucky, like, let’s not do it again.” Marci: Exactly and if you just can notice that what your body is communicating to you and also trust, and this is where so many people skip a step, because we’re not taught to do this in our culture is that our heads override with a rule, right, too much ice cream and our head says “Tomorrow: rule, no ice cream” but if you can say “OK, I’m going to take a pause from my busy brain and say “If I were to let my body choose what the next step might be,” you will notice that your body has all this wisdom to re-regulate you but that head jumps in way too soon and creates this big rule because you’re in a place where you’re feeling awful and you’re feeling really scared and you’re feeling really anxious, right and so but it’s that practice of noticing, “OK, my head is so loud but if I were to just ask, what would my body say?” and I did actually a hilarious experiment like the ice cream one you guys just gave. I had a client, this is one of my favorite stories, we’re working on moving away from this dieting mindset and she said “Marci, my hardest food is gummy bears.” She’s like, “I’m obsessive with gummy bears, I love gummy bears. So you’re telling me (because we were working on unconditional permission, one of the intuitive eating principles, unconditional permission to eat whatever food she wanted)” she said, “Now you’re telling me that I am allowed to have gummy bears for lunch” and I said “Totally, if what you want is just gummy bears for lunch you can totally have gummy bears but I want you to make sure of 2 things, one: you get yourself enough gummy bear so you’ve gotten enough to eat for lunch and I also am going to ask that you have to pay attention to the taste of the gummy bears and how they feel in your body and how you feel afterwards.” She’s like “OK, I’m totally going to do it.” And I think she was, like, looking to like prove me wrong, to be like “I’m just out of control with gummy bears, I can’t be trusted. You don’t know what you’re talking about.” And she came back and I said “Did you do the gummy bears for lunch?” and she’s like “I totally did” and I said “How did it go? What did you notice? What did you learn?” and she said, “Well, I thought that I was just going to be super excited and super happy to eat gummy bears for lunch, like I really felt like I was getting away with something but what I learned is that if I only eat gummy bears at lunch I actually feel sick and I kind of feel shaky” and so I kind of responded, you know, in a very neutral way to say “You know, that’s really interesting.” I said, “So if you were to redo that to where you wanted to have gummy bears at lunch time, you wanted to pair it with other things so that you could feel energized and that you could feel, you know, not distracted at work and  you’re not shaky and your stomach doesn’t feel upset, what would you choose?” and she listed out what she had in mind with gummy bears sort of on the side and it was this, like, completely, you know, nutritious, totally balanced meal and I was like “OK, you know, maybe you want to try that” and it was about her experimentation and learning “Oh, I don’t have to have this hard core rule, you know, like, “Don’t eat gummy bears” it was like, “Oh, it turns out that if I really listen I don’t want to just eat gummy bears for lunch, like, I feel kind of awful when I do that.” Annie: And it was inside of her, like, that she knew that, it was almost innate, like this is, “I did this, I didn’t like how I felt, I’m going to try this” and what an amazing moment. That’s an awesome story. Marci: And it was really cool because, like, you know, we were working on “you have to truly give yourself permission, that has to be there, it can’t be conditional, you have to really say ‘I am allowed to have these foods’ and I’m going to practice and I’m going to notice” and she did that and what she noticed was “I’m allowed to have gummy bears for lunch but do I actually want to” and when you’re not rebelling against something and you have permission, then you have the autonomy to actually make a choice. Annie: Yeah, I’ve shared this analogy so many times but when I was in 8th grade of my parents made this boy off limits for dating and his name was Alex and all I wanted to do, I wasn’t even really interested in Alex I don’t think, but when they said I couldn’t date him I was like, “I need to date Alex.” Marci: You were, like, on an Alex binge. Annie: I was like, “Well, now, watch me, now I’m going to make this happen” but yeah, but it’s kind of the same principle kind of applies to food when you make all foods permissible then a lot of them lose their appeal. Like do I really even want this now that I can have it? Marci: Yeah. Yeah and sometimes our head really wants something, especially when we’ve been really conditioned to say “Ooh, that’s off limits, you can’t have that” So sometimes our head will be like “Ooh, I really want this thing” and then we say “Well, OK, I can have it. I can have gummy bears for lunch but what will that experience actually be like and is that what I want to choose for myself right now?” Lauren: Yeah, I think that dieting, like the biggest flaw even over, you know, reducing your caloric intake in half, basically, which is a big flaw, is just that you can’t trust your body, like it teaches you you cannot, you cannot be trusted. I think that’s like the root of everything, right? Marci: Oh my gosh, I couldn’t agree more. I feel like so much of the cleanup that I’m doing with my clients in terms of the diet culture is beginning to help my clients see this notion that you can’t be trusted, that idea was planted in your brain by the dieting industry and then they put you on a diet that would guarantee an outcome to where you feel out of control, that then looks like evidence that you can’t be trusted and then they give you another diet to follow. It is a complete construct of the dieting industry. It is not rooted in reality and our jobs are helping to move you away from that dieting mindset and towards a place of that inner self trust. Annie: Amen. That’s, and you already said this, Marci, but that’s, we joke that our business model might not be the most sustainable because we want to put the diet industry out of business and give women all the tools they need, give back women all the tools that they already had and so they aren’t forever reliant on us, like you said, like hopefully your clients learn to eat well and that supports their lifestyle and their goals and they don’t forever need you, right? But that’s not the diet industry’s motive. Marci: Oh no and it’s not how it sustains itself, right? I mean, if the average listener was to list out the number of diets that they’ve been on it would be evidence of “Oh yeah, this is based on repeat customers” but  if I do my job really well, right, I’m going to work with people for a period of time and then my hope is that they aren’t going to return and maybe maybe they do, maybe life circumstances hit them up, you know, things happen but my goal is for my clients not have to be repeat customers. That’s the intention, right, is to get my clients to a place where there is so much internal self-trust built that they know how to navigate how to take care of themselves which is very, very different business model. Annie: Absolutely. Lauren: Yeah and I was just going to mention that there was actually an interview done with a Weight Watchers C.E.O. or former C.E.O. that said part of their business model that they would use to get investors is that they had so much repeat business, so many repeat clients and it’s like well, that kind of proves that your diet doesn’t work, you know? Marci: Exactly and it’s not intended to work. Lauren: Right. Marci: Right. Annie:  OK, Marci, I want to thank you so much for your time. This was a wonderful, wonderful interview with you and I think it’s going to provide a lot of valuable and much-needed information to our community about sugar, is it addicting, is it not and as we clearly stated, it’s not, but that feeling of feeling out of control around sugar is something that a lot of women are familiar with and I think you gave some really, really great suggestions on how to begin regaining a sense of safeness or control around those foods. Marci: I sure hope so. It’s been so great to be here and I know you mentioned that you guys are going to link to a blog post that I wrote that really kind of delves into some of the science and some of the trouble with the food addiction model and that might be interesting for some of your readers to see and if it’s, or listeners, I should say, the readers of this blog post and also for folks who might be interested to dive into some of the research, there might be some science-minded folks I can also provide some citations to connect to what the state of the science is and you know, we kind of hit on this in the beginning and I’m sure you guys talk about this, there is so many problems with food and nutrition related research between how it’s conducted, how it’s disseminated and how it is portrayed in the media so the last thing that I would offer up to anyone who is listening is to take food headlines very, very lightly and if they are extreme, if they are black and white, if they are really, you know, kind of imposing a really extreme rule to take that very, very, very lightly, that there’s a lot of problems with reading and interpreting and sharing nutrition-related research in media and that is another way in which you can feel so pulled and sort of feel more out of control and like you don’t know where to go and you don’t know who to trust and you get pulled into another diet and that is why I’m just loving the messaging that you ladies are putting out into the world that is about cultivating greater self-trust because there’s going to be another headline out there and there’s going to be another podcast that I’m going to have to do about that headline. That is going to be my career probably until the end of time. So, do not take every headline so seriously and to really keep doing that work of developing that sense of self trust because it’s in there, it’s inside of you if you believe in it and I hope that this has been not only interesting but also given some concrete steps and tools to help you on your path in your journey in developing healthy relationship to food and body and yourself. Annie: I am certain that it has been and I’m so excited for our listeners to experience it too. Marci: Awesome, thanks. Annie: Thank you, Marci. Lauren: Thank you, Marci. Marci: Bye. Lauren: Bye.   The post Is Sugar Addictive? appeared first on Balance365.

When Brett Podolsky's dog was chronically unwell, he had an idea: What if he bought the same ingredients listed and in the commercial brand he was feeding her, and made her fresh food? The change in her health was drastic, and led to Brett, who was then working as a comedian, convincing his best friend, Jonathan Regev, to start a subscription-based high-end dog food company with him. Now three years old, their Brooklyn-based company, The Farmer's Dog, has secured some ten million dollars in VC funding and their health-supportive recipes are being enjoyed by tens of thousands of grateful dogs throughout the country. Annie and Brett discuss what it takes to start a dog food company from scratch, the problems behind commercial dog food, and the shifts in dog owner awareness that are leading to a tide change in the pet food realm. Visit SchoolForTheDogs.com/Farmer and get 50% off a two week trial subscription. Notes: Learn more about the Farmers Dog at schoolforthedogs.com/farmers - Brett and Jonathan in Forbes - Fun Dog Fact: Yes, it's possible to dog food that is nutritionally viable (according to government standards) using shoe leather, crushed coal, water, and motor oil. Woof Shout Out: Our sweet doodle student Webster recently moved to San Francisco. We miss him, but we enjoy keeping tabs on his left coast life on Instagram! instagram.com/westcoastwebbie/ Have a question about dog training? Get in touch! Podcast@SchoolForTheDogs.com --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Hey everyone. Today I am speaking to Brett Podolsky, who is one of the founders of The Farmer's Dog, which is a high end dog food subscription company. I first discovered The Farmer's Dog three or so years ago, not long after they opened up shop because I was at a cafe that I often go to near my apartment. And there was a guy there with a dog and he and I started talking about his cute dog and it came up in conversation that we're both dog business entrepreneurs. And I started looking into his company and that was Brett’'s business partner, Jonathan Ragiv. A year later, I was reading about them in Forbes.com. And last year, I read that they had secured an $8 million investment. At which point I realized these guys were actually maybe a big deal. So I was psyched to get the opportunity to talk to Brett **music** Annie: So tell me how you guys got started. Brett: Yeah, so Jonathan was actually living with me at the time. Annie: And how did you two know each other to begin with? We met abroad and basically just like hit it off and spent every single day with each other. Literally it might be like four and a half years now. Annie: Were you traveling together? Brett: Yeah. Yeah. We met like on a trip. And we bonded over, I think it was funk music and yeah, after that, we just had one of those moments, like, did we just become best friends? And then after that, yeah, we basically spent every single day with each other for years. Annie: So were you like trying to figure out what kind of business you could do together, or were you suddenly inspired by the idea of a dog food? Brett: No, it's funny. Well, when I met him, I thought besides just being like a great person, I thought he was like the smartest person I've ever met. So I was like, I definitely, if I'm going to start a business, that man will be my business partner. I don't know if that's what he was thinking at the time. He had been working on a couple of different startups. Full Transcript available at SchoolfortheDogs.com/Podcasts/

If you have a dog, you've likely encountered bully stick chews. They're great for keeping dogs occupied, but there is always the risk of swallowing them, especially when they get chewed down to their ends. Several products have recently hit the market, each of which tries to solve this problem in a novel way by sheathing, clamping, or holding the chews in such a way to make it impossible (ideally) for a dog to choke on them. Annie surveys some of these products, and interviews the inventor of the The Everchew, designed by Austin-based inventor Kirby Kendall. Help fund his product on Kickstarter (through 10/3/18) at Everchew.com. Notes: AnnieGrossman.com/podcast25 - What is a bully stick? - Bully stick holders at StoreForTheDogs.com - Music: "Bully of the town" cover by JazzBanjoRex - Sponsor: SANEBOX! Get $15 off at SchoolForTheDogs.com/Sane --- Partial Transcript: **music** Annie: So, you know, you're a pretty big dog loving nerd, if you can get very excited about bully stick holders. And, uh, I'll explain later in this episode exactly what a bully stick is, if you're not familiar with bully sticks, but basically they're a very popular kind of dog too. I recommend them to clients all the time because they're a single ingredient and dogs love them. Lots of great things about bully sticks. But one downside to bully sticks is when they get to their very last inch or so, they kind of look like cigars depending on the size that you get, but when they get down to that little nub, there's always the risk that a dog can swallow it which is never a good thing. So over the last few years, a couple of companies have started offering various kinds of bully stick holders, basically devices that keep your dog from being able to get to that last little bit. And at School for the Dogs, we get really thrilled when we receive one of these things to try because like I said, we recommend bully sticks all the time. So right now a storeforthedogs.com, we sell three and each one kind of has a different approach to solving this problem. Probably our most popular one is called the Animaswizzler. It's this very cool looking kind of like plastic and rubber cage that fits over a bully stick. And we sell a lot of these. I like them, but they're not really great for super heavy chewers because plastic and rubber can be broken and sometimes the dogs do end up breaking them. So I don't recommend them for heavy chewers. Then we have one made by the company West Paw, which is a really great company. It's all rubber and you kind of shoved the bully stick in. It kind of looks like a really big hot dog bun. Um, and that also has its advantages and disadvantages. I think the main disadvantage is most of the bully stick is lodged in the rubber thing, so your dog really can't get to it at all. And then the third one we've be recently started selling is called the Bone Head. And it's kind of like a clamp that literally screws onto a bully stick with a screwdriver... Full Transcript available at SchoolfortheDogs.com/Podcasts/

Every time you feed a dog, you have the opportunity to channel some of her energy into an appropriate activity, to tire her out, and to give her a sense of purpose. "Work To Eat" toys provide dogs with jobs, and dogs like to be employed! If we don't give them jobs, they too often make up their own jobs, alerting you to every sound in the hallway, or redesigning the couch cushions with their mouths. There are lots of kinds of "Work To Eat" toys. In this episode, Annie talks about one type: Slow Food Bowls. These kinds of toys can be used with any kind of food or treat (wet, dry, raw or frozen), and are no harder to use than a regular bowl. Slow Food Bowls: StoreForTheDogs.com/collections/dog-bowls-and-treat-dispensers Types of "Work To Eat" Toys: SchoolForTheDogs.com/WorkToEat "Ain't We Got Fun" ukulele cover by Jazzbanjo Rex: youtube.com/Jazzbanjorex/ Find Annie at AnnieGrossman.com --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Hi, my name is Annie Grossman and I'm a dog trainer. This podcast is brought to you by School for the Dogs, a Manhattan based facility I own and operate along with some of the city's finest dog trainers. During this podcast, we'll be answering your questions, geeking out on animal behavior, discussing pet trends, and interviewing industry experts. Welcome to School for the Dogs podcast. **music** Annie: Hey everyone. So Anchor, which is the wonderful company that hosts this podcast has just launched a really cool new feature. And they've asked us to be one of the first podcasts to try it out. It's called listener support. Today is the very first day they're making this available. And basically it's kind of like a tip jar. So if you enjoy this podcast and you want to support it in some small way, let me know that you're listening and you're into it. You can sign up to give a monthly amount, either 99 cents, $4.99 or $9.99. And that recurring contribution will go straight back to helping produce this podcast. All you need to do is go to any browser, type in anchor.fm/dogs, and then just go ahead and click that listener support button as a special thank you. During this launch of this new feature, the first five supporting listeners will receive a School for the Dogs bandana. So go ahead and check it out and thanks to the folks at Anchor for inviting me to be a part of this launch. **music** Annie: So today we're going to talk about work-to-eat toys, specifically, slow food bowls. And let me tell you, I have exerted a lot of brain power and a lot of time trying to figure out how to approach the topic of work to eat toys, because there's so many great work to eat toys, but they're like different kinds of work to eat toys. So my conundrum has been well, do I just try and cover all of my favorite work to eat toys in one episode, or do I talk about just a specific variety of work to eat toy, or do I mentioned a single work to eat toy in every episode, and, I'm not sure what the right answer is, but what I've decided to do is to start out talking just about slow food bowls. And I hope that I will have an episode soon where I'll cover some other kinds of work to eat twice. I'm not sure how I'll do that yet, but the reason I want to start with slow food bowls is because I think they're kind of like a gateway work-to-eat toy. They're really easy to use. But anyway, let's back up for a second. Full Transcript available at Schoolforthedogs.com/Podcasts

In New York City, a good dog walker can be hard to find. Dog owners open up their homes to them, and put their most beloved and vulnerable family members in their care, but a majority of walkers have no training or even interest in their chosen career. DivaDog is a walking company that strives to bring professionalism to the industry. Annie interviews its owner, Shelley Goldberg, about her three decades in the business, her hiring and management practices, and finding meaning and soulfulness in the pet care industry. You can reach Shelley at 707-DIVA-DOG Show Notes - 11 questions to ask a potential dog walker - Music: Rockin' Robin cover by Danielle Anderson - School For The Dogs - Store For The Dogs - Instagram - Facebook --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Hi, my name is Annie Grossman and I'm a dog trainer. This podcast is brought to you by School for the Dogs, a Manhattan based facility I own and operate along with some of the city's finest dog trainers. During this podcast, we'll be answering your questions, geeking out on animal behavior, discussing pet trends, and interviewing industry experts. Welcome to School for the Dogs podcast. **music** Annie: So at School for the Dogs, we often get asked to recommend a variety of different dog service providers in New York City. And a lot of clients ask us to recommend dog walkers. Now this can be tricky because dog walking is a field where there's so much turnover, that it can be really hard for us to recommend anywhere because we're never sure that the walkers that we like are still going to be with the place. And as trainers we’re really well aware of all the things that can go wrong with a not good dog walker. You don't even have to have a dog who has a lot of issues to have a dog that can be really adversely affected by even one bad walk with a walker. And that might not be a walker who's necessarily nefarious or anything. It might just be one who's not that experienced. And, it's a job where most people do it as their careers. Most people kind of dip in and out of dog-walking. So over the years we have created a very small list of walkers that we tend to recommend. And today I'm speaking with the owner of one of the companies that we recommend, the company is called DivaDog. It's owned by Shelley Goldberg, who's based in the East Village. And some of the reasons why we recommend DivaDog, first of all, Shelley is a career dog walker. She doesn't walk dogs herself anymore. She runs the business, but she has been doing walking since 1990. And she's going to talk about that a little bit. Other things that set her apart, she is a lot more expensive than all the other walking companies that we recommend. And I don't know what she pays her walkers, but I'm guessing she pays them enough to make them stick around for a while, which I think again is important because a lot of the times dogs, especially really sensitive dogs, don't react well to having a new walker every three to six months. And it seems like she has some really good retention with her walkers and really devote some time to training her walkers. Something else that I appreciate about Shelley's business is the simplicity of it. Her walkers are not GPS tracked. She does everything on paper. She prefers to be contacted by phone then via email or in any other kind of way... Full Transcript available at SchoolforthDogs.com/Podcasts/

Nipping is something that tends to drive new puppy owners batty. A lot of the advice you'll find on the Internet suggests scolding a pup for nipping; usually people are told they should use a high pitched voice (as if to emulate another puppy) or to berate the dog in the deepest voice possible. There are still lots of professionals out there who will advise that conversing with a puppy will curb the problem, if done in the right tone of voice. In this podcast episode, I suggest thinking about puppy nipping less as a problem and more as a natural thing puppies do as they start to learn about the world. Both you and your puppy will benefit if he has lots of daily opportunities to use his mouth appropriately. Link to Show notes - 7 ways to deal with nipping - On bully sticks - Work to eat toys --- Partial Transcript: Annie: Hey, so if you've been enjoying this podcast, I just wanted to say thanks a lot for listening. We really appreciate when people leave reviews, make sure to give it a five star rating on iTunes. But also, you know, take a screenshot and put it in your Instagram stories so that your friends can know what you're listening to and maybe you'll turn them on to some new ideas about how to deal with dogs. We also are trying to do more Q and A's, so if you have any questions about anything relating to dog training, please share them with us. You can send us a direct message on Instagram at Schoolforthedogs. We also have a Facebook group, which is facebook.com/groups/schoolforthedogs. And of course you can email us podcast@schoolforthedogs.com. **music** Annie: So my job involves hanging out with a lot of puppies, which I gotta say is pretty awesome, but one downside of hanging with puppies is nipping. Nipping is a totally normal thing that puppies do. But if you follow my advice here, I think you're going to get a puppy that is a lot less nippy than your average dog. And I also always like to point out to puppy owners who are frustrated with their dog nipping that things do get better on their own. I think even without a lot of concerted training, most puppies tend to figure out how to use their mouths appropriately on their own, so that's good news. That's not to say that there aren't adult dogs who do not use their mouth well, but I would say the majority of them of adult dogs, I know, especially, those who have gone through any kind of puppy classes tend to figure out what is and isn't okay as far as where they should be chomping down those teeth. And a big part of that, part of the reason why I say a lot of the puppies I think who go through any kind of puppy play or puppy kindergarten program, the way they figured this out on their own is through each other. I'll talk a little bit more about that in a moment. If you have a nippy dog, I think the first thing you need to think about is where you're putting your hands. Our hands move around. They have lots of smells on them and they are often in and around a puppy's face. I can't tell you how many times I've been sitting with a client who's complaining about how their puppy keeps chewing on their fingers and I looked down and the person's hands are in the dog's face. Well, if your hands are... if you're choosing to put your hands in your dog's face, then you have to expect you might be nipped on a little bit. Full Transcript available at SchoolfortheDogs.com/Podcasts

Episode 75: Create a Theatrical Vision: Teacher Annie Loffredo   Teacher Annie Loffredo equates being a drama teacher with being an artist. She loves being able to put on shows year after year and inspiring her students because she was so inspired when she was in high school. She talks about how she creates a vision for a play, conveys that vision to students and executes a vision through production. Show Notes Power Play Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP, The Theatrefolk Podcast. I am Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. Today, we have an interview I recorded with teacher Annie Loffredo last month. I connected with Annie after getting some gorgeous and so theatrical pictures from her production of my play, Power Play. So, I got in touch and we're going to talk about her vision for the play, her advice for creating a specific production vision, and then executing that vision. Awesome stuff, let's get to it. Lindsay: Hello everybody! I am so thrilled to be talking to teacher Annie Loffredo today. Hello! Annie: Hi! Lindsay: Awesome. And so, the first thing I want you to do is set up. So, where are you in the world? Annie: Okay. I am in Miami, Florida. Lindsay: Miami, Florida. Is it nice in Miami, Florida, right now? Annie: Today, I actually posted it on my Facebook and Instagram that it felt like a summer day with 86 degrees but it felt like it was 93. Lindsay: Oh. Annie: So, I was outside and it feels like the summer here. I can't even believe it's December. Lindsay: Aww. I can because it's snowing like a thing that snows a lot up here. Annie: Yes, I saw your Instagram post today with your running shoes with snow on and I'm like, “Wow! How does she run in that weather?” Lindsay: We're Canadians. We're built for it. Annie: I know, I know. Lindsay: What are you going to do? And, you're a Drama teacher, yes? Annie: Yes, I am. Lindsay: How long have you been a teacher? Annie: I have been a teacher in Dade County Public School for four years but I've been teaching Drama probably since I was fifteen because my mother was also a Drama teacher so she was at the middle school level, so when I was in high school, she would be like, “Oh, come teach my kids, come teach my kids,” and I just did it, like, on the side from that point on and eventually I just fell into being a Drama teacher in the school system. Lindsay: What did you think about teaching Drama when you were yourself a teenager? Annie: I never wanted… I mean, I always loved Drama. So, when I say I never wanted to be a teacher, it's just that I never wanted to deal with all the things that teachers have to deal with. But I always loved the idea of teaching Drama. And now, I think it's the best career I could ever have gone into because, even though there is all of that paperwork and all the things that teachers have to do, I find it to be an absolute blessing that I get paid to be an artist because there are so many artists out there that are starving and being able to make a living because they want to do what they're passionate about, and I make a decent living and all I do is create art, and I'm very grateful for that. Lindsay: I think that's really awesome that you think of teaching as being an artist. Annie: Well, it is. I mean, every time I go to put on a show, I get to do what so many artists always want to do – get paid to put on a show. And, not only that, I get to inspire students to do the same thing because I know when I was in high school, the only thing that kept me going to the school was Drama, and to give that to kids every day, I just feel grateful that I have that option to do that, that I am able to do that because it meant so much to me when I was a kid. Lindsay: So, when was that moment when the switch sort of flicked for you when you went from “I'm never going to teach” to “Okay, here,