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6 episodes with yorubas
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2 episodes with yorubas
5 episodes with yorubas
4 episodes with yorubas
2 episodes with yorubas
Hay historias que desafían la lógica, relatos que te obligan a cuestionarlo todo. Pero pocas veces tenemos la oportunidad de escuchar a alguien que ha sido testigo de lo imposible desde antes de su propia infancia. Roberto Aragón, de Contacto Paranormal Podcast, no solo ha visto lo que muchos temen… ha sido perseguido por ello. Desde niño, entidades de distintos planos astrales comenzaron a acecharlo. Voces que nadie más oía susurraban su nombre en la oscuridad. Sombras imposibles de describir se manifestaban en su vida sin previo aviso. Pero esto era solo el comienzo. La lucha entre el bien y el mal es real, y cuando llega el momento de elegir bando, no hay marcha atrás. Una noche, lo impensable sucedió: fuerzas opuestas intentaron reclutarlo. La luz y la oscuridad se hicieron presentes, y en un instante que desafía toda lógica humana, Roberto tuvo que decidir su destino. ¿Qué vio realmente? ¿Quién intentó apoderarse de su alma? ¿Y cuál fue el camino que eligió tomar? En este episodio de No Mires por la Ventana, Roberto nos cuenta su historia en carne propia. Un relato escalofriante que te hará dudar de lo que crees saber sobre el mundo espiritual. ¿Te atreves a mirar por la ventana? Distribuido por: Genuina Media
Au Brésil, le candomblé est l'une des religions afro-brésiliennes vivantes dans le pays, en particulier, à Salvador de Bahia où elle s'est développée pendant la colonisation portugaise et qui est devenue un instrument d'émancipation des Noirs. Les orixás (ou orishas), les dieux originaires d'Afrique en particulier les Yorubas du Nigeria et du Bénin, incarnent les forces de la nature et des esprits des ancêtres et dans un syncrétisme particulier, les saints catholiques ont été intégrés et associés eux-mêmes à des divinités.Les adeptes du candomblé ont régulièrement subi des persécutions, encore aujourd'hui, dans un pays où les églises évangéliques se sont largement développées. Et ces religions afro-brésiliennes ont aussi retraversé l'Atlantique, pour circuler sur le continent européen où elles trouvent un succès étonnant.Invités en studio :- Sara Clamor, docteur en Anthropologie sociale et ethnologie de l'EHESS, l'École des Hautes Pratiques en Sciences Sociales, auteure de « Les orixás dansent en Europe » (Éd. Karthala, 2024)- Stéphane Herbert, photographe, arpente depuis plus de 30 ans le Brésil et notamment Salvador de Bahia et les communautés spirituelles du candomblé, auteur de « Rituels du Brésil », un ouvrage de photos pour illustrer la capoeira, le candomblé et le carnaval (Éd. Hémisphères).Reportage dans un terreiro (maison du candomblé) près de Rio de Janeiro, de notre correspondante au Brésil, Sarah Cozzolino.
Au Brésil, le candomblé est l'une des religions afro-brésiliennes vivantes dans le pays, en particulier, à Salvador de Bahia où elle s'est développée pendant la colonisation portugaise et qui est devenue un instrument d'émancipation des Noirs. Les orixás (ou orishas), les dieux originaires d'Afrique en particulier les Yorubas du Nigeria et du Bénin, incarnent les forces de la nature et des esprits des ancêtres et dans un syncrétisme particulier, les saints catholiques ont été intégrés et associés eux-mêmes à des divinités.Les adeptes du candomblé ont régulièrement subi des persécutions, encore aujourd'hui, dans un pays où les églises évangéliques se sont largement développées. Et ces religions afro-brésiliennes ont aussi retraversé l'Atlantique, pour circuler sur le continent européen où elles trouvent un succès étonnant.Invités en studio :- Sara Clamor, docteur en Anthropologie sociale et ethnologie de l'EHESS, l'École des Hautes Pratiques en Sciences Sociales, auteure de « Les orixás dansent en Europe » (Éd. Karthala, 2024)- Stéphane Herbert, photographe, arpente depuis plus de 30 ans le Brésil et notamment Salvador de Bahia et les communautés spirituelles du candomblé, auteur de « Rituels du Brésil », un ouvrage de photos pour illustrer la capoeira, le candomblé et le carnaval (Éd. Hémisphères).Reportage dans un terreiro (maison du candomblé) près de Rio de Janeiro, de notre correspondante au Brésil, Sarah Cozzolino.
La Samba du Brésil Le Brésil, avec Haïti et Cuba, est le pays d’Amérique Latine où la musique noire comme la samba s’est développée avec le plus de vigueur. Il reçut des Yorubas, des Haussa, des Ewe et des déportés originaires de la côte de Guinée au XVIe siècle, des Benguelas de groupe linguistique Kimbundo […] L'article AJAMAAT SOUND – 32 est apparu en premier sur Radio Campus Tours - 99.5 FM.
Secessionists: Why Yorubas Are Most Influential, Wealthiest In Nigeria - Reno Omokri ~ OsazuwaAkonedo #Agodi #Ibadan #Nation #Omokri #Oyo #Reno #Secessionists #Yoruba It Is No Longer News That Some Armed Group Of People Attempted To Overthrow And Takeover Government In Oyo State On Saturday. But The Action Of The Relatives Of The Suspected Armed Secessionists Elicited The Reaction Of Reno Omokri, The Former Presidential Spokesperson To Goodluck Ebele Jonathan On New Media And Digital Communication Who In A Message On Thursday Gave Reason Why People From Yoruba Ethnic Group, According To Him, Are The Most Influential And Wealthiest People In Nigeria. https://osazuwaakonedo.news/secessionists-why-yorubas-are-most-influential-wealthiest-in-nigeria-reno-omokri/18/04/2024/ #Issues Published: April 18th, 2024 Reshared: April 18, 2024 8:40 pm
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In this episode, I talk about the history of the Yorubas. Vocals only by @siedd Background sound by @bevis rain and thunder sounds --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/suruspeaks/message
Imam Ojifinni Abdul-Ganiu, The Mufasir Of Ramadan 1444/23 In Ikorodu) Urges Yorubas Not To Cause Distraction To The Incoming Administration. He Told Ikorodu News Network (INN) That An Effective Performance By Nigeria's President-Elect, Asiwaju Bola Ahmed Tinubu, Will Give More Opportunities To Yorubas Vying For Presidency In The Future. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ikorodunewsnetwork/support
This episode is also available as a blog post: https://osazuwaakonedo.news/femi-fani-kayode-attacks-obasanjo-over-iwanyanwu-alleged-statement-against-yorubas/27/03/2023/ Support this podcast with a small monthly donation to help sustain future episodes. Please use the links below: Support Via PayPal https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=TLHBRAF6GVQT6 Support via card https://swiftpay.accessbankplc.com/OsazuwaAkonedo/send-money Support via Webmoney https://funding.wmtransfer.com/e1c3f11e-a616-4f6a-98d7-4d666a48d035/donate?c-start-error=K36158TP&sum=10 --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/supportsupportsupportsupport --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/osazuwaakonedo/message
can be boiled as vegetable, roasted or popped, like popcorn. Or you can grind the seeds into flour and used in baking or mix with other flour like you would with pounded yams or other fufus..... Quite common in the Americas, and Africa. In Nigeria, It's often called greens. In Nigeria, it's a common vegetable and goes with almost all Nigerian dishes. It's Ebe ..Uvhen khen in Edo language, by the Igbos as Ini ne...by the Yorubas as shoko, a short form of sho..koyo..koto, meaning "make the husband fat", or arowo jeja....meaning "we have money left over for fish". In Bantu regions of Uganda and western Kenya, it is known as doodo or litoto. It is also known among the Kalenjin as a drought crop.. chepkerta. In Lingala, spoken in the Congo,, it is known as lɛngalɛnga or bítɛkutɛku. In the Caribbean, the leaves are called bhaji in Trinidad and callaloo in Jamaica, and are sautéed with onions, garlic, and tomatoes, or sometimes used in a soup called pepperpot soup. In Botswana, it is referred to as morug and cooked as a staple green vegetable. Thanks for listening, I appreciate it!Please comment below, share and like, if you found the video helpful. Also, if you need more health tips and information for healthier living, do visit my website at:
What the Yorubas call majata meaning 'don't eat pepper' is actually known as Aphthous ulcers or canker sore. It can be quite devastating, small but mighty.In this interesting episode, our in-house dentist Temitayo talks about causes and remedies for this condition.Please drop your comments and feedbacks. We love to read them.
A Mistranslation done by Samuel Ajayi Crowther when he published his Yoruba-to-English dictionary as been the reason why Èṣù, an Adored Òrìṣà has been associated with evilness like the Christian Satan . In this Episode, Funmi Pepper tries to clear up the misconceptions and explain who Èṣù really is and the role Èṣù plays in Yoruba culture and how Èṣù who Yorubas name themselves after is not Satan.. TWITTER @MafejopamiPod
Adeyinka Grandson, president of the Young Yorubas for Freedom (YYF) revolutionist has been jailed for four and half years by a United Kingdom court over his social media posts against some ethnic groups in Nigeria.The west London man is accused and convicted for racial hatred with inflammatory messages encouraging violence in Nigeria.Adeyinka Shoyemi, 45, of Powis Terrace in Notting Hill, first came to the attention of counter-terror police in March 2019 after members of the public reported his posts on a social network targeting particular ethnic groups in Nigeria.The messages, posted by accounts under the name ‘Adeyinka Grandson', were assessed by a specialist group of officers in the Met's Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit (CTIRU).They found the posts, which had commentary encouraging attacks against certain ethnic groups, were in potential breach of the law .He was initially arrested at his home address in August 2019, with officers searching three properties linked to him and seizing various digital devices.Shoyemi was initially charged with six counts of inciting racial hatred and he was released on bail with a condition not to post any more social media posts which were threatening, abusive or insulting to any ethnic groups. He was later rearrested for disregarding the bail condition. Shoyemi was sentenced to four-and-a-half years' behind bars on Thursday.He was found guilty on November 30 of eight counts of inciting racial hatred after a trial at Southwark Crown Court.Commander Richard Smith, head of the Met's Counter Terrorism Command, said: “Our Counter Terrorism Internet Referral Unit – the first of its kind to be established anywhere in the world – was instrumental in identifying Shoyemi and his activity.“Over the last ten years, the CTIRU has been at the forefront of getting harmful content removed from the internet, and detecting and investigating potential terrorist-related activity online.“We continue to need the help and support of the public and I would encourage anyone who comes across material or posts that could be related to terrorism or violent extremist activity to report it to us, so that our specialist officers can take action where necessary.”
Welcome to todays programming at THE BOW. Today,we look at Goal 16 of the UN SDGs as we narrow down on INTEGRITY(following months of our previous episodes on issues like Eye Service,Courtesy,Stick-to-itiveness & African Time).Integrity is what will make us actually achieve all of the UN SDGs with a sincerity of purpose & focus.The Efiks will say : " Eto ese mmong ese kpa mmong"(what is bad is bad) and so the person with integrity knows that you JUST have to do the right thing(a remark my kid sister Arc Erica Nwanyanwu will always drum to my ears).The Yorubas will say "Sokoto to n ise oko lo n gbe"( Your labour yields your affluence) which we simply know that it means a good name (integrity) is better than riches.Our intellectual mentality has to change for us to recognise that we have little time on our hands to just do the right thing with a clean integrity and thereby achieve the UN SDGs before 2030.Our integrity is key because our time is NOW. Please listen to The Bow TB by visiting our new URL https://anchor.fm/THE-BOW .Thank you for being a great audience. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/THE-BOW/support
Yorubas love weddings. You can see it even now that we are combining Western ideologies too. We have evolved but the love of weddings is still strong. In this episode, I tell you the Yoruba wedding stages. Don't forget to subscribe to my YouTube channel: Suru's space. Watch my videos and like and comment. https://youtube.com/c/SururatRaheemah --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/yorubamelekenka/message
Some music are playing and wisdom are being passed out to the younger generations of the Yorubas
The Yorubas of West Africa are a pẹople who value character above material possessions. On this segment, I share tales from my childhood playground revealing the wisdom of the Yoruba people. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/universityoftruth/message
O ritmo Ijexa foi trazido da África pelo escravos Yorubas. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/cristina-george/message
In the first story, the world is covered with water, and the grandson of the king takes his inheritance and makes the land of the Yoruba. In the second story, the king's wives think that the man covered in scars is attractive, so the king sets out to get the same hundred cuts, but can only stand two. Thus two cuts becomes the sign of royalty. In the third story, Akiti brags about being a great hunter, but Elephant thinks he brags too much. They have a battle and it comes down to one of the smallest animals to win the day. Is Akiti still the greatest hunter? Source: Yoruba Legends recorded by M. I. Ogumefu (1929) Music: Okun Song by Empress Kofoworola Creative Commons Cover Photo: "File:A costume parade on Tiv and Yoruba ethnic group.jpg" by Magicc0077 is licensed under CC BY-SA 4.0 Narrator: Dustin Steichmann Frog recording: Dustin Steichmann Podcast Shoutout: Beer'd Al Brother and sister John & Lauren Carey discuss beer and Weird Al's catalog. Beer by beer and song by song. We also go off on wild tangents sometimes (often). Cheers! Listener Shoutout: Louisville, Kentucky --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/sandman-stories/message
This episode is also available as a blog post: https://osazuwaakonedo.com/northern-senator-shehu-sani-asks-yorubas-afenifere-to-tender-apology-for-comparing-sunday-igboho-with-prophet-muhammad/27/07/2021/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/support
This episode is also available as a blog post: https://osazuwaakonedo.com/sunday-igboho-must-be-released-yorubas-block-benin-ibadan-lagos-road/21/07/2021/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/support
This episode is also available as a blog post: https://osazuwaakonedo.com/arrested-why-you-must-stand-with-sunday-igboho__deji-adeyanju-tells-yorubas/20/07/2021/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/support
Yorubas and parties!!! (Owambe)
Nesta explicação contamos um pouco do porque utiliza-se ovos em algumas oferendas e ebós.
On this debut episode of Digging Deep, Agidigbo 88.7 FM's Investigative Team deployed the aftermath of Shasha crisis as a mirror to understand the devastating impact of conflict on lives and livelihoods. This is one of a four-part series on the crisis that rocked Shasha, Ibadan, Oyo State leading to an inter ethnic clash between the Yorubas and the Hausas in the community.
Ultimatum for Fulani herdsmen to leave the Yoruba states was declared by little know Sunday Igboho Jan 2021 He is the man standing up to defend the Yorubas and their land because they are being terrorized by cattle herders who commit crimes and suffer no consequences. Is he the saviour we need?
Tous les jours dans Nova Lova, Jeanne Lacaille vous propose une chronique sur les musiques rituelles, les rythmes issus des musiques de guérison (traditionnelles ou repassées à la moulinette des musiques actuelles), des plantes ou bien des savoirs hérités racontés par des invité.e.s un peu sorcier.e.s de passage à Nova.Un podcast réalisé par Tristan Guérin.Aujourd'hui dans la Potion, la violoncelliste brésilienne Dom La Nena !Dom La Nena grandit entre le Brésil et la France, mais c'est en Argentine finalement qu'elle a appris le violoncelle, sa baguette magique si on veut. Depuis 2010, on suit de près Dom La Nena : en solo, en duo avec Rosemary Standley dans Birds on Wire (foncez écouter leur dernier album Ramages si ce n'est pas déjà fait, il est magnifique)... Mais on a pu la croiser aussi aux côtés de Jane Birkin, Jeanne Moreau, Etienne Daho, Sophie Hunger, Camille ou encore Piers Faccini, qui ont tous réclamé son savoir-faire et son élégance au violoncelle. Le 26 février, Dom La Nena sortira son 3e album solo, Tempo, une petite douceur entre classique, folk et langueur bossa. Le violoncelle est évidemment l'instrument à l'honneur de Tempo, celui de la musique, celui de la vie aussi : pour Dom La Nena, cet album est une invitation à ralentir, à vivre au présent et à saisir tous les petits moments de grâce. Pour La Potion, Dom La Nena revient sur les sorcières qui l'ont inspirées, de Marguerite Duras à Jeanne Moreau, avant de nous faire découvrir quelques rituels yorubas très populaires au Brésil. Crédit © Six Degrees Recors See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.
Sheikh Ahmad Gumi, has criticized the people yearning for Biafra and Oduduwa Republics.In an interview with BBC Pidgin on Saturday, the Islamic cleric, who compared the agitators to the Boko Haram terrorists, described them as “miscreants”.He said those agitating for Biafra and Oduduwa Republics are not different from the Boko Haram sect terrorists in the North.The cleric said that the majority of Nigerians want a united nation where peace and equity abound and not a country divided along ethnic and religious linesHe said: “I usually give an example of General Murtala Mohammed, the former head of state from Kano that was assassinated by Buka Suka Dimka-led group. He married a Yoruba wife. So, where do you want his children to go if the nation is divided? Are they going to be with the Yorubas or Hausas in the North?“Look, let's forget these useless youths. They're no more different from these herdsmen. These people agitating for Ododuwa, Biafra or Arewa are all the same group of people with Boko Haram.“Majority of Nigerians want to stay with Nigeria. And if they are in doubt, lets make a referendum. Look at elections for instance, millions of votes from all the states, whether from APC or PDP. This means that Nigerians are ready to stay with a united Nigeria. That is an indirect referendum which shows that the people are ready.“So, all these youths that are making noise, whether Abubakar Shekau of Boko Haram, Nnamdi Kanu of IPOB and their Ododuwa counterpart, they are just a tiny minority of Nigerians using ethnic, archaic and retrogressive sentiments to destabilise the nation.“But l can vouch that Nigerians really want to stay together in peace. But in peace and equity. Not any segment of Nigeria is cheated.”Gumi said the fact that Yoruba and Igbo leaders did not endorse such calls for secession showed they are unpopular opinions championed by few disgruntled persons.“I'm in Sokoto now, there still many Igbo traders here who don't want to go back home, so why do you tell me they want Biafra? Biafra is a nuisance just like Boko Haram. You think everyone northerner is a Boko Haram? Most Nigerians don't want these ethnic or religious groups. They simply want peace and live together as nation. If truly the Yorubas are agitating for Oduduwa, why are their leaders not talking about it? Why Igbo leaders also not talking about Biafra?” he queried.“What we expect is for Yoruba leaders and Igbo leaders to take care of their miscreants as we handle herdsmen and Boko Haram which are miscreants in the North. Every leader should take the words to their people. Only the miscreants are fuelling this,” he added.
Who are the Yorubas? History of the Yorubas by Samuel Johnson : https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/history-of-the-yorubas/2389E85E75E370E76B6189F44A6A9646 Music copyright: Dubakupado Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/
Yorubas unarguably are one of the majority ethnic group in Nigeria. This African narrative told with humor and suspense will delight the listener with its wealth of details of the Yoruba's belief of how all things were created, including humans, by a pantheon called Obatala through the help of other gods. Every beat reveals the several deeds of some of this pantheon when and after humans were created...
Yorubas unarguably are one of the majority ethnic group in Nigeria. This African narrative told with humor and suspense will delight the listener with its wealth of details of the Yoruba's belief of how all things were created, including humans, by a pantheon called Obatala through the help of other gods. Every beat reveals the several deeds of some of this pantheon when and after humans were created...
Yorubas unarguably are one of the majority ethnic group in Nigeria. This African narrative told with humor and suspense will delight the listener with its wealth of details of the Yoruba's belief of how all things were created, including humans, by a pantheon called Obatala through the help of other gods. Every beat reveals the several deeds of some of this pantheon when and after humans were created...
更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Abidemi, we've been talking about your country, Nigeria. Now, you've mentioned that there's different langauges in different regions.Abidemi: That's correct.Todd: Now, are they similar or are they completely different?Abidemi: I believe they're completely different. Nigeria has over 250 languages.Todd: Whoa, really, 250 for the whole country?Abidemi: Yes. Yes. So that's not even counting the dialects, when you start breaking them down into dialects, I believe there are over 500, maybe even thousands of dialects because Nigeria was a British colony, so these were distinct communities and groups of people before the British came in. So that's why one of the reasons we have so many languages. However, we have four official languages, of course, English, we need that to unite everybody. And in schools, people learn English. We all have Yoruba in the southwestern part of Nigeria, which is my native language. We have Igbo in the southeastern part and Hausa in the northern part of Nigeria, yes.Todd: Wow! Can you talk a little bit about each language? Now, you said your language is Yoruba?Abidemi: Yes, that's correct, Yoruba is a tonal language like Chinese or Cantonese, unlike Cantonese, we have three tones and not four, so ba, ba, ba, I don't know if you can tell the difference between those three words but they are different, three different words. Igbo, I'm not so sure, but it's a completely different language, if somebody's speaking it I would not be able to understand.Todd: And what region is that in?Abidemi: It's in the southeastern part of Nigeria. And then finally Hausa, it's more ... it's closer to Arabic I believe and a lot of Hausas are Muslims, so I think there's that relationship between those two languages.Todd: So they sound completely different from each other?Abidemi: Completely different, and because we have so many languages sometimes you would have a neighboring community but people can't understand each other unless they speak in English because their languages are nothing alike, yeah.Todd: So how common is it to find somebody who speaks all three languages, the three major languages?Abidemi: There are some people who do. There are some people who do, especially businessmen, a lot of Yorubas and Igbos are very business-oriented, but traditionally men, they will travel to different parts of Nigeria and some other countries in West Africa to do trade. So for those people it was essential to learn languages, so those people can. Nowadays most people just speak two, you speak English and your native language. So maybe it's becoming rarer and rarer to find people who speak all three languages.Todd: So are these languages all taught in the school system?Abidemi: For the most part no, which I think it's very unfortunate, I think it's something we should be very proud of. But now the emphasis is on English. So a lot of parents want their children to learn English in school, the top schools are mainly English and the onus is on the families to teach their children their native languages at home or maybe if you live in a neighborhood, for example, if you're Yoruba like I am, if you live in a neighborhood where there are other Igbos, of course, you would have Yoruba at home and Igbo being spoken to you by your friends and you might be able to pick it up that way, but generally no. So for me, when I was growing up I went to English speaking schools so I learned English at school, I never learned my native language at school at all. But at home I tried by myself, I studied my language by myself, so that's how I learned to speak.Todd: So do you think you'll pass on the language to your children someday?Abidemi: I want to, most definitely, yes. I think from learning different languages myself, I speak French as well, I think it's really important, my native language is my language and as much as English is important in the world today, I think my native language, Yoruba, is part of my identity. And for my children too, I think it's important for them to learn, so yes, I would like them to speak it.Todd: Oh, I agree, one's native language is always the most important.Abidemi: Exactly. Exactly.Todd: That's cool though, so you've got three distinct different languages, more.Abidemi: More. More.Todd: More, but three major distinct languages.Abidemi: Yes, these are the three major ethnicities - ethnic groups in Nigeria, yes.Todd: Well thanks.Abidemi: Thank you.
更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Abidemi, we've been talking about your country, Nigeria. Now, you've mentioned that there's different langauges in different regions.Abidemi: That's correct.Todd: Now, are they similar or are they completely different?Abidemi: I believe they're completely different. Nigeria has over 250 languages.Todd: Whoa, really, 250 for the whole country?Abidemi: Yes. Yes. So that's not even counting the dialects, when you start breaking them down into dialects, I believe there are over 500, maybe even thousands of dialects because Nigeria was a British colony, so these were distinct communities and groups of people before the British came in. So that's why one of the reasons we have so many languages. However, we have four official languages, of course, English, we need that to unite everybody. And in schools, people learn English. We all have Yoruba in the southwestern part of Nigeria, which is my native language. We have Igbo in the southeastern part and Hausa in the northern part of Nigeria, yes.Todd: Wow! Can you talk a little bit about each language? Now, you said your language is Yoruba?Abidemi: Yes, that's correct, Yoruba is a tonal language like Chinese or Cantonese, unlike Cantonese, we have three tones and not four, so ba, ba, ba, I don't know if you can tell the difference between those three words but they are different, three different words. Igbo, I'm not so sure, but it's a completely different language, if somebody's speaking it I would not be able to understand.Todd: And what region is that in?Abidemi: It's in the southeastern part of Nigeria. And then finally Hausa, it's more ... it's closer to Arabic I believe and a lot of Hausas are Muslims, so I think there's that relationship between those two languages.Todd: So they sound completely different from each other?Abidemi: Completely different, and because we have so many languages sometimes you would have a neighboring community but people can't understand each other unless they speak in English because their languages are nothing alike, yeah.Todd: So how common is it to find somebody who speaks all three languages, the three major languages?Abidemi: There are some people who do. There are some people who do, especially businessmen, a lot of Yorubas and Igbos are very business-oriented, but traditionally men, they will travel to different parts of Nigeria and some other countries in West Africa to do trade. So for those people it was essential to learn languages, so those people can. Nowadays most people just speak two, you speak English and your native language. So maybe it's becoming rarer and rarer to find people who speak all three languages.Todd: So are these languages all taught in the school system?Abidemi: For the most part no, which I think it's very unfortunate, I think it's something we should be very proud of. But now the emphasis is on English. So a lot of parents want their children to learn English in school, the top schools are mainly English and the onus is on the families to teach their children their native languages at home or maybe if you live in a neighborhood, for example, if you're Yoruba like I am, if you live in a neighborhood where there are other Igbos, of course, you would have Yoruba at home and Igbo being spoken to you by your friends and you might be able to pick it up that way, but generally no. So for me, when I was growing up I went to English speaking schools so I learned English at school, I never learned my native language at school at all. But at home I tried by myself, I studied my language by myself, so that's how I learned to speak.Todd: So do you think you'll pass on the language to your children someday?Abidemi: I want to, most definitely, yes. I think from learning different languages myself, I speak French as well, I think it's really important, my native language is my language and as much as English is important in the world today, I think my native language, Yoruba, is part of my identity. And for my children too, I think it's important for them to learn, so yes, I would like them to speak it.Todd: Oh, I agree, one's native language is always the most important.Abidemi: Exactly. Exactly.Todd: That's cool though, so you've got three distinct different languages, more.Abidemi: More. More.Todd: More, but three major distinct languages.Abidemi: Yes, these are the three major ethnicities - ethnic groups in Nigeria, yes.Todd: Well thanks.Abidemi: Thank you.
更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So, Abidemi, we've been talking about your country, Nigeria. Now, you've mentioned that there's different langauges in different regions.Abidemi: That's correct.Todd: Now, are they similar or are they completely different?Abidemi: I believe they're completely different. Nigeria has over 250 languages.Todd: Whoa, really, 250 for the whole country?Abidemi: Yes. Yes. So that's not even counting the dialects, when you start breaking them down into dialects, I believe there are over 500, maybe even thousands of dialects because Nigeria was a British colony, so these were distinct communities and groups of people before the British came in. So that's why one of the reasons we have so many languages. However, we have four official languages, of course, English, we need that to unite everybody. And in schools, people learn English. We all have Yoruba in the southwestern part of Nigeria, which is my native language. We have Igbo in the southeastern part and Hausa in the northern part of Nigeria, yes.Todd: Wow! Can you talk a little bit about each language? Now, you said your language is Yoruba?Abidemi: Yes, that's correct, Yoruba is a tonal language like Chinese or Cantonese, unlike Cantonese, we have three tones and not four, so ba, ba, ba, I don't know if you can tell the difference between those three words but they are different, three different words. Igbo, I'm not so sure, but it's a completely different language, if somebody's speaking it I would not be able to understand.Todd: And what region is that in?Abidemi: It's in the southeastern part of Nigeria. And then finally Hausa, it's more ... it's closer to Arabic I believe and a lot of Hausas are Muslims, so I think there's that relationship between those two languages.Todd: So they sound completely different from each other?Abidemi: Completely different, and because we have so many languages sometimes you would have a neighboring community but people can't understand each other unless they speak in English because their languages are nothing alike, yeah.Todd: So how common is it to find somebody who speaks all three languages, the three major languages?Abidemi: There are some people who do. There are some people who do, especially businessmen, a lot of Yorubas and Igbos are very business-oriented, but traditionally men, they will travel to different parts of Nigeria and some other countries in West Africa to do trade. So for those people it was essential to learn languages, so those people can. Nowadays most people just speak two, you speak English and your native language. So maybe it's becoming rarer and rarer to find people who speak all three languages.Todd: So are these languages all taught in the school system?Abidemi: For the most part no, which I think it's very unfortunate, I think it's something we should be very proud of. But now the emphasis is on English. So a lot of parents want their children to learn English in school, the top schools are mainly English and the onus is on the families to teach their children their native languages at home or maybe if you live in a neighborhood, for example, if you're Yoruba like I am, if you live in a neighborhood where there are other Igbos, of course, you would have Yoruba at home and Igbo being spoken to you by your friends and you might be able to pick it up that way, but generally no. So for me, when I was growing up I went to English speaking schools so I learned English at school, I never learned my native language at school at all. But at home I tried by myself, I studied my language by myself, so that's how I learned to speak.Todd: So do you think you'll pass on the language to your children someday?Abidemi: I want to, most definitely, yes. I think from learning different languages myself, I speak French as well, I think it's really important, my native language is my language and as much as English is important in the world today, I think my native language, Yoruba, is part of my identity. And for my children too, I think it's important for them to learn, so yes, I would like them to speak it.Todd: Oh, I agree, one's native language is always the most important.Abidemi: Exactly. Exactly.Todd: That's cool though, so you've got three distinct different languages, more.Abidemi: More. More.Todd: More, but three major distinct languages.Abidemi: Yes, these are the three major ethnicities - ethnic groups in Nigeria, yes.Todd: Well thanks.Abidemi: Thank you.
更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So Abidemi, you're talking about food in Nigeria, are there any other dishes you can talk about?Abidemi: Yes, I could talk all dayabout food but I'll mention one more that I know that a lot of children in Nigeria really love. It's called dodo. In my region of Nigeria, I'm Yoruba we call it dodo but it's basically fried plantains. So when plantains are really ripe fried, actually, plantains are like bananas but they are bigger and starchier. So when they get really ripe, we fry them in oil over the stove, deep fry it and it just comes out really sweet and a bit caramelized, just a little bit and little kids just really love it. And we have this at home or even school and if you tell a little kid when I was growing up if you told us that, “Okay, if you don't do your homework, you're not going to have dodo." It would freak us out because we just wanted to have it so we always listened then because that's what we wanted to have. So yeah, I have really good memories of eating it.Todd: So is this a dish like that you just make at home or is it something you buy on a street stall, or can you buy it in a supermarket?Abidemi: Actually, both. When I was growing up we didn't have it so much outside but now you can buy it just about anywhere. They have little kind of like plantain chips but it's made from, yeah, it's sweeter and you could buy it anywhere on the streets or you can make it at home. I make it definitely at home when I get my hands on plantains. So, it's very accessible, yeah.Todd: That's great. So in your country is there lots of street stall food?Abidemi: Yes. Yes, actually there is. In my area of Nigeria, the southwestern part, the Yorubas, we like to eat out. We can buy food from the market or from outside people cooking. In the morning's lots of people outside making pastry-like food that you can buy and eat, for people going to work who don't have time to cook at home. In the afternoons for lunch too, you could just pop out of your office and buy something. And at night, there are lots of people in different neighborhoods who make food on the street. And you can just buy it hot and fresh and delicious.Todd: Oh wow! So what are some dishes that you can buy, like what's a typical lunch that somebody would buy on the street?Abidemi: I would say, probably something made from rice - rice and beans with stew. That's very easy to buy. You could also buy for lunch maybe, we call it Puff Puff, it's like a...Todd: Puff Puff?Abidemi: Puff Puff, yes, it's like dough, it's doughy and it's fried in oil. And it's like a simple lunch that you can have, a simple dish not very filling but mostly they would eat what I talked before, maybe Inyan or Amala. These are all made from yam, different ways of making yam, of processing yam that comes out to different food, yeah.Todd: Oh, sounds yummy. What about fruits?Abidemi: Lots of fruits. Nigeria is a tropical country so we've got an abundance of fruits: mangoes, pineapples, watermelons and we also have fruits that I've never heard of. There's one that's called in my language Agbalumo but I checked it on the internet the other time and it's called African cherry and I've never seen it anywhere but Nigeria before.Todd: Oh really, what's it like?Abidemi: It's ... how do I ... the color is bright orange, inside it's sour and really sour and a little bitter. It's just got this really strong taste and...Todd: So it's not sweet like a normal cherry?Abidemi: No, it's not. No, not at all. It's not sweet like a normal cherry but it's got its own different ... it tastes a little bit like grapefruit but it's not citrus. It's not a citrus fruit so it's really interesting when you eat it and it's really good. And the thing about Nigeria is like other tropical countries, you have fruits that come in, in different seasons so that's always exciting to look forward to because some things you can only get at a certain time of the year. So when it comes out and it's really cheap and everyone is buying it so it's really good.Todd: Oh, well that sounds great. And you like ... it sounds you've a lot of really good food in your country.Abidemi: Yes, we do, definitely. Come check them out.
更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So Abidemi, you're talking about food in Nigeria, are there any other dishes you can talk about?Abidemi: Yes, I could talk all dayabout food but I'll mention one more that I know that a lot of children in Nigeria really love. It's called dodo. In my region of Nigeria, I'm Yoruba we call it dodo but it's basically fried plantains. So when plantains are really ripe fried, actually, plantains are like bananas but they are bigger and starchier. So when they get really ripe, we fry them in oil over the stove, deep fry it and it just comes out really sweet and a bit caramelized, just a little bit and little kids just really love it. And we have this at home or even school and if you tell a little kid when I was growing up if you told us that, “Okay, if you don't do your homework, you're not going to have dodo." It would freak us out because we just wanted to have it so we always listened then because that's what we wanted to have. So yeah, I have really good memories of eating it.Todd: So is this a dish like that you just make at home or is it something you buy on a street stall, or can you buy it in a supermarket?Abidemi: Actually, both. When I was growing up we didn't have it so much outside but now you can buy it just about anywhere. They have little kind of like plantain chips but it's made from, yeah, it's sweeter and you could buy it anywhere on the streets or you can make it at home. I make it definitely at home when I get my hands on plantains. So, it's very accessible, yeah.Todd: That's great. So in your country is there lots of street stall food?Abidemi: Yes. Yes, actually there is. In my area of Nigeria, the southwestern part, the Yorubas, we like to eat out. We can buy food from the market or from outside people cooking. In the morning's lots of people outside making pastry-like food that you can buy and eat, for people going to work who don't have time to cook at home. In the afternoons for lunch too, you could just pop out of your office and buy something. And at night, there are lots of people in different neighborhoods who make food on the street. And you can just buy it hot and fresh and delicious.Todd: Oh wow! So what are some dishes that you can buy, like what's a typical lunch that somebody would buy on the street?Abidemi: I would say, probably something made from rice - rice and beans with stew. That's very easy to buy. You could also buy for lunch maybe, we call it Puff Puff, it's like a...Todd: Puff Puff?Abidemi: Puff Puff, yes, it's like dough, it's doughy and it's fried in oil. And it's like a simple lunch that you can have, a simple dish not very filling but mostly they would eat what I talked before, maybe Inyan or Amala. These are all made from yam, different ways of making yam, of processing yam that comes out to different food, yeah.Todd: Oh, sounds yummy. What about fruits?Abidemi: Lots of fruits. Nigeria is a tropical country so we've got an abundance of fruits: mangoes, pineapples, watermelons and we also have fruits that I've never heard of. There's one that's called in my language Agbalumo but I checked it on the internet the other time and it's called African cherry and I've never seen it anywhere but Nigeria before.Todd: Oh really, what's it like?Abidemi: It's ... how do I ... the color is bright orange, inside it's sour and really sour and a little bitter. It's just got this really strong taste and...Todd: So it's not sweet like a normal cherry?Abidemi: No, it's not. No, not at all. It's not sweet like a normal cherry but it's got its own different ... it tastes a little bit like grapefruit but it's not citrus. It's not a citrus fruit so it's really interesting when you eat it and it's really good. And the thing about Nigeria is like other tropical countries, you have fruits that come in, in different seasons so that's always exciting to look forward to because some things you can only get at a certain time of the year. So when it comes out and it's really cheap and everyone is buying it so it's really good.Todd: Oh, well that sounds great. And you like ... it sounds you've a lot of really good food in your country.Abidemi: Yes, we do, definitely. Come check them out.
更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Todd: So Abidemi, you're talking about food in Nigeria, are there any other dishes you can talk about?Abidemi: Yes, I could talk all dayabout food but I'll mention one more that I know that a lot of children in Nigeria really love. It's called dodo. In my region of Nigeria, I'm Yoruba we call it dodo but it's basically fried plantains. So when plantains are really ripe fried, actually, plantains are like bananas but they are bigger and starchier. So when they get really ripe, we fry them in oil over the stove, deep fry it and it just comes out really sweet and a bit caramelized, just a little bit and little kids just really love it. And we have this at home or even school and if you tell a little kid when I was growing up if you told us that, “Okay, if you don't do your homework, you're not going to have dodo." It would freak us out because we just wanted to have it so we always listened then because that's what we wanted to have. So yeah, I have really good memories of eating it.Todd: So is this a dish like that you just make at home or is it something you buy on a street stall, or can you buy it in a supermarket?Abidemi: Actually, both. When I was growing up we didn't have it so much outside but now you can buy it just about anywhere. They have little kind of like plantain chips but it's made from, yeah, it's sweeter and you could buy it anywhere on the streets or you can make it at home. I make it definitely at home when I get my hands on plantains. So, it's very accessible, yeah.Todd: That's great. So in your country is there lots of street stall food?Abidemi: Yes. Yes, actually there is. In my area of Nigeria, the southwestern part, the Yorubas, we like to eat out. We can buy food from the market or from outside people cooking. In the morning's lots of people outside making pastry-like food that you can buy and eat, for people going to work who don't have time to cook at home. In the afternoons for lunch too, you could just pop out of your office and buy something. And at night, there are lots of people in different neighborhoods who make food on the street. And you can just buy it hot and fresh and delicious.Todd: Oh wow! So what are some dishes that you can buy, like what's a typical lunch that somebody would buy on the street?Abidemi: I would say, probably something made from rice - rice and beans with stew. That's very easy to buy. You could also buy for lunch maybe, we call it Puff Puff, it's like a...Todd: Puff Puff?Abidemi: Puff Puff, yes, it's like dough, it's doughy and it's fried in oil. And it's like a simple lunch that you can have, a simple dish not very filling but mostly they would eat what I talked before, maybe Inyan or Amala. These are all made from yam, different ways of making yam, of processing yam that comes out to different food, yeah.Todd: Oh, sounds yummy. What about fruits?Abidemi: Lots of fruits. Nigeria is a tropical country so we've got an abundance of fruits: mangoes, pineapples, watermelons and we also have fruits that I've never heard of. There's one that's called in my language Agbalumo but I checked it on the internet the other time and it's called African cherry and I've never seen it anywhere but Nigeria before.Todd: Oh really, what's it like?Abidemi: It's ... how do I ... the color is bright orange, inside it's sour and really sour and a little bitter. It's just got this really strong taste and...Todd: So it's not sweet like a normal cherry?Abidemi: No, it's not. No, not at all. It's not sweet like a normal cherry but it's got its own different ... it tastes a little bit like grapefruit but it's not citrus. It's not a citrus fruit so it's really interesting when you eat it and it's really good. And the thing about Nigeria is like other tropical countries, you have fruits that come in, in different seasons so that's always exciting to look forward to because some things you can only get at a certain time of the year. So when it comes out and it's really cheap and everyone is buying it so it's really good.Todd: Oh, well that sounds great. And you like ... it sounds you've a lot of really good food in your country.Abidemi: Yes, we do, definitely. Come check them out.
Lo que debemos saber del misterio Dahome y en las creencias afrodescendientes Mundo Yoruba Latinoamericano Episodio No 9 No conocer las conexiones espirituales distintas debilita el poder de los ancestros en nuestros rituales y objetivos. No solo tenemos herencias Yorubas. Entérese bien de esas conexiones para que su relación con el mundo espiritual de nuestra religión sea más efectivo.
Eshu: Our tale today takes us deep into the western region of Nigeria, into the lands of the Yorubas. It was there that the tale of Eshu, the trickster god, originated.Eshu, also known as Elegba or Legba as in the Yoruba dialect, was a trickster god of the Yoruba people of Nigeria in West Africa. He was unpredictable, sly and fond of pranks that can be cruel and disruptive. Indeed, he was despicable. He was one who knew all the languages spoken on earth and served as a messenger between the gods and the people, carrying up to heaven the sacrifices that the people offered to the gods.Gather round and listen to the tale of the trickster divinity of the Yoruba people.
Eshu: Our tale today takes us deep into the western region of Nigeria, into the lands of the Yorubas. It was there that the tale of Eshu, the trickster god, originated.Eshu, also known as Elegba or Legba as in the Yoruba dialect, was a trickster god of the Yoruba people of Nigeria in West Africa. He was unpredictable, sly and fond of pranks that can be cruel and disruptive. Indeed, he was despicable. He was one who knew all the languages spoken on earth and served as a messenger between the gods and the people, carrying up to heaven the sacrifices that the people offered to the gods.Gather round and listen to the tale of the trickster divinity of the Yoruba people.
Eshu: Our tale today takes us deep into the western region of Nigeria, into the lands of the Yorubas. It was there that the tale of Eshu, the trickster god, originated.Eshu, also known as Elegba or Legba as in the Yoruba dialect, was a trickster god of the Yoruba people of Nigeria in West Africa. He was unpredictable, sly and fond of pranks that can be cruel and disruptive. Indeed, he was despicable. He was one who knew all the languages spoken on earth and served as a messenger between the gods and the people, carrying up to heaven the sacrifices that the people offered to the gods.Gather round and listen to the tale of the trickster divinity of the Yoruba people.
My conversation with Akin Oyebode is now up. Akin has been the model public servant in most young business and progressive circles that I am aware of in the last decade or more. He’s also had a previous successful career in the financial industry and has been brilliantly recalibrating to what I think our expectations should be about the public sector. We delve into his current job, and how that shapes his outlook on public service. We also talked about several important reforms he wants to help jumpstart in Ekiti State. Akin is a practising pragmatist with the values of a progressive idealist. You can listen or download, for much more interesting insights (you can also listen on Stitcher here)TranscriptTobi: This is Ideas Untrapped, and I am here with Akin Oyebode. Akin is an economist and currently, he is the special adviser to the Ekiti State Government on investment, trade and innovation. Welcome Akin.Akin: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.Tobi: You came from the private sector, what are the cultural differences between public service and the private sector? There was this analogy I got from Arnold Kling where he said: public institutions usually have a culture of 'no', where they are big enough and it's very easy to say no and changes only happen at the margins, unlike private institutions or startups where they start from 'yes' and they can really really drive change fast. What has your experience been in that regard?Akin: I think you have to understand that (some) public service and private sector have two fairly distinct outcomes and Taleb's skin in the game theory, for me, is what holds very strongly here. In the private sector, you could argue that as an employee sometimes you're a shareholder, sometimes your reward is directly tied to the performance of the firm. So in a way you have skin in the game. You have some skin in the game. Founders of businesses which tend obviously more along the startup space, those guys have full skin in the game. Their lives are almost tied... they're like Siamese twins to the company. So if you look at the founders of, say, PayStack or Flutterwave; these guys have left the comfort of their day jobs to go and set up businesses. They're taking the biggest bets of their lives on these businesses. It's like you going to a surgeon, you're going to choose the best surgeon possible because if he makes a mistake, you're dead. Public service tends to be fairly different in the sense that, first: the reward structure is more annuity-based. So you are rewarded for not making mistakes. The fewer mistakes you make the better. So, even if you don't change anything, as long as you've not significantly damaged anything - you haven't stolen money - you're likely to have a 30-40-year career. So the incentives are not aligned towards innovation, that's the first thing. And that tends to make people a lot more cautious. Also because they're not significantly affected by the outcomes, that also creates a moral concern for me.If you think about healthcare, if you think about education, you could argue that my children will go to fairly decent schools regardless of the quality of education overall in the country. And so because of those misalignments in incentives and outcomes, you tend to find that people will play it safe because they themselves are not significantly invested in those outcomes. If you take my current role, I've gone to Ekiti State to support...Clears throatAkin: The development work going on there, but you can argue that "look, many of the things that I will be involved in, I might not necessarily be the beneficiary or it might not impact me directly." So if you sign off on a firm building a rice mill in a certain community, you don't live in that community, you don't deal with the environmental challenges that come with that decision, so you are not as invested in the outcomes as the people who live in those communities. But I think some of the things that can change is, for example, aligning incentives properly, rewarding people for taking risk (some level of risk). There are areas where I think that risk-taking is not important - things that have to do with lives, things like aviation. I will not advocate for cutting-edge technology or improvements in aviation if we cannot be sure, 100 percent, that it improves the safety outcomes. Things like healthcare - approving drugs, for example. You want to test and test and test and be sure there are no adverse effects. The food and drugs department, for example - NAFDAC - is not the place where people will have lots of crazy ideas. But improving transport, improving tourism, improving production; I think government has to be a lot more, I'll say, open to fresh ideas. And I think it's happening across the country in pockets where you're now starting to see younger people, people with private sector experience going into government and hopefully, we're a critical mass and we're able to influence significant changes in governance.But I agree, 100 percent, with that philosophy that improvement in government will not be radical for the foreseeable future and it tends to happen at the margins because it's also less disruptive...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: It's easy for the mainstream public service to say "hey, this is how we do things." It's something that you hear in government and I've worked for two governments now so it's not an Ekiti problem. I'll ask someone: why do we do this this way? Why do we charge these 5 levies? And the person says "oh, but this is how it was always charged" and then when you go and you dig deeper, you find that it was just one man who just sat down one day and said "oh, charge this amount as a levy for trying to get a C of O. It's not because there was some science to it, it's not because it was researched or evidence-based, it was just the guy's belief at the time. And so it tells you that it's almost two things: on one side, one person can actually make a significant change; but when that person does, to unwind some of the negative outcomes of those kinds of changes take forever to happen. So you almost must be in the stubborn minority. You must be that guy who feels like "I can make things happen" and then start to build a critical mass of those people and eventually I think we'll see government become a bit more innovative. But it's not going to be NASA...Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: It's not going to be Google, it's still government but you'll see some changes happen.Tobi: It's interesting you mentioned incentives. Do you think that public servants are properly rewarded, in terms of pay?Akin: You know that's a question where I have skin in the game.LaughsAkin: I honestly don't feel that...there are two issues here. One is that I don't think public servants are well-paid, but the second issues that I also don't think that the public service is productive enough today to ask for significant...Tobi: Raise Akin: Raise in salaries. I'll tell you point-blank as a public servant today, my net pay will be about for hundred thousand naira a month and I'm a fairly senior, you might say, public servant. At four hundred thousand naira a month, that's effectively five million naira a year, you're not going to attract significant talent into the place unless they are people that, one: have earned income previously and have savings they can depend on or in some cases, they are people where people both partners earn, so where maybe you're lucky to have a wife who significantly outearns you and can ensure that the quality of life doesn't diminish, significantly, by joining government. Or if you think you have, maybe, bigger ambitions in public service that you're happy to take a pay cut to go and work in government. But it’s very difficult to attract people to serve government and one of the ways that national and sub-national government are now trying to, sort of, workaround that is to get development finance institutions or development partners to offset some of the salary differences. But to what extent can you do that, for how many people, how scalable is it? And then, where does the conflict of interest come in, where some people might say "why should a foreign agency pay the salaries of people working in public service?" But today, that's the only way you can do it unless the salary structure starts to change. But to even show that we need to earn more, I believe that we need to be a lot more productive, both at the national and sub-national government. One person can actually make a significant change; but when that person does, to unwind some of the negative outcomes of those kinds of changes take forever to happen. -AOTobi: Yeah, I think you're talking about talent, so the two issues sort of tie together in a way. That is, talent and the knowledge problem, and incentives in the public sector. Now if you talk about safety industries, maybe NAFDAC, aviation and all that - if I understand you correctly, you advocated for some kind of precautionary principle.Akin: Absolutely.Tobi: But, what about the knowledge problem? Okay, let's take NAFDAC. We know that the knowledge about drug discovery relies with the private sector.Akin: Absolutely.Tobi: Now, if you don't have enough talent, at say, NAFDAC, how then can they make the right decisions even about regulating drugs. So how should the government try to solve that talent challenge?Akin: I think Singapore and China are two good examples, where you have to take a 20-30-year view of building a pipeline and you have to send people to the best institutions possible, you have to give them a chance to cut their teeth in the private sector, understand how private enterprise works, what drives innovation (etc) and then bring those people back into public service. It has to be very deliberate. I used to work in banking and I used to joke with friends that every time I sat with a CBN examiner, I said to myself that I understand the financial products a lot better than you do and so how are you even going to regulate me properly? And those are the issues that you face in regulatory agencies today where the knowledge is limited not because of any malicious intent, but it's really just because the people don't know better. So I think that first, Nigeria must be very deliberate about how do we send people to acquire knowledge? How do we help them gain experience and how do we ensure that they come back and feed all of those things into public service? We used to do it in the past, we had a lot of talent development programs and I remember...in fact I remember I was reading a tweet by...I think it was Tolu Ogunlesi who was tweeting something about our first engineering PhD. The guy who went to MIT, I forget his name now, who came back to Nigeria and the government just didn't know what to do with him and the guy ended up going to work for Shell, I think, or something. That guy in China will be sitting at a senior level, a senior decision-making level within 20 years of graduating from that PhD program. You know the thing about what the Chinese did - not only did they encourage people to go to the west to learn, when they came back they also put them in critical functions. Whether it was a research function, whether it was the PBOC (The People's Bank of China), those guys were now the guys today...some of those guys are the guys taking decisions for the country. Singapore, for example, will say to you: you're a great talent, go and study elsewhere, go and do this, but when you come back we're going to pay you top dollar because you're the best of the best. I think that's where we have to get to - a situation where we are taking our top talent, we're exposing them to private-sector institutions both locally and internationally. But there's a clear plan about how to feed them back into the public service. I think that's the part we've missed out, where, now, the public service is seen as a place to fit our cousins who don't have jobs. Honestly, I can openly tell you this that in my state, for example, we're doing a recruitment exercise for teachers and the government has been very clear that if you don't make a certain mark you can't qualify. But people in my community have come to me to say "oh, but you should be able to help this guy now, he scored 30. Let's say the pass mark is 40, you know... it's not too far off." And I'm like, but these are the guys want to... you want these guys...Tobi: To educate your kids.Akin: To educate your kids. Don't you understand that if I hire a substandard teacher, your kids are going to get substandard education and you are caught in a poverty trap? So you who should have more skin in the game (you) are actually the one coming to me to say come and break the rules for us. It's not in your interest and I think we have to understand that public service is for the best people. Our best guys must go into public service. It's like the universities; back in the day, if you made a first [class] or you made a very good 2:1, you were locked in to go back into the academia. Today, we're almost saying that "oh, if you can't get into Shell, then come and teach engineering" whereas thirty years ago, Shell and the engineering faculty were competing for talent. So I think that we have to be deliberate about that. Our best people must be shown a path into public service.Tobi: Okay. So now let's talk about you on the job. Someone like me writing about public policy can say "oh, you have to do XYZ" but I mean someone like you on the job has to deal with practical issues. So (now) which would a public servant prioritise between, say, fixing fundamental issues and binding constraints? I'll give you an example - you used to write a blog back in the day "t'oluwa ni ile", I don't know why you stopped...Akin: That was Feyi. That was Feyi's blog I think I only guest-posted for him.Tobi: Oh, interesting... So now, someone like me can say that "oh, for us to have some kind of change in that area you have to repeal the land use act". Whereas in Ekiti State, it could be a binding constraint that can be removed by simply suspending aspects of it to achieve what you want to do without really touching the law. So how does it work, really?Our best people must be shown a path into public service. - AOAkin: I think land administration, for me, is a great way to discuss this problem. I think sometimes... in fact let's not use [the] Land Use Act. Let's use taxes. Tobi: Yeah.Akin: We always say States can't compete because corporate taxes are the exclusive preserve of the Federal Government but I think that States can compete even on payroll taxes. So if I say today that we want to be a knowledge destination as Ekiti - as Ekiti State we should be able to say that if you come to work in the knowledge economy whether as lecturer, as a researcher, as an innovator, whatever it is; that you should only pay 2.5 percent payroll taxes, as against, maybe, 28 percent which is where your salary band sits. It automatically means that if you leave Lagos today and you move to Ekiti, you're 20 percent up and that's an incentive to drive people there. And I think that's something that States can do, and say "look, you know what? We want to own the automobile sector, if you come and set up shop here, you're going to pay 5 percent taxes regardless of your income band." And so people then say: hey guys, you know what? If we move this factory to Ekiti, you might not have ShopRite there today, you might not have iMax but you're earning 15 percent more. Yes or no?Tobi: Yeah.Akin: That takes you... that starts to give people a reason to move outside of Lagos or Port-Harcourt or wherever. So I think that there are things that the sub-nationals can do to compete a lot better. But to your point around what do you deal with? You deal with the fundamentals. I always say that as a government or as a public servant, you must ensure that you are there to support generational change. And, again, I always go back to places like China. If you think of a guy like Zhao who was Premier, he's been airbrushed out of Chinese history today but a lot of the reforms that he started are the reforms that China still depend on thirty years later for growth. Even though he died... you could say he died unheralded etc, the point is that if you look at China critically, anything that you say Deng Xiaoping did, they did it together, for the most part. But you must be strong in your conviction that you're doing what is right and you're doing what is right for the long term. So, but, it comes at a cost. And I'll give you a good example. In my principal's first term in office, he instituted an assessment of teachers that was deemed unpopular and politically naive and ask I people: was it the right thing to do to ensure that you had the best quality teachers in place? It's never a bad policy. You can't say "oh, well, you guys did something unpopular, teachers won't vote for you." You've got to ask yourself: you will not be in government forever, how do you ensure that you build things that can outlive you, that can outlast you? It's very important and it's always a...it's a problem, it's a dilemma because you also can say "if you don't hold political power, then how do you influence people?" And I think for me, it's in playing on the margins and saying "look, how far can I push the envelope?" And "is this thing an extensional issue?" I consider education an existential issue. And so, I would say that "look, today, States should not be devoting less than, at least, 15 percent of the budget, minimum, to education." You know 26 percent might be impractical today because you also have issues with infrastructure, security etc. But I will say, "look, no matter what, at least 15 percent of your budget should go towards education regardless of what happens" and you must say "look, what are the fundamental problems I'm solving?" Quality of the curriculum, quality of teachers, learning environment, what can I do to improve pedagogy? (etc) Those are existential problems. Land use, for example, is that an existential problem? In my opinion, no.I can still work around that today. There are still things that within the Governor's powers he can do to improve land rights in the state. I can digitise my land registry. I can make it easier to get a certificate of occupancy. I can make it easier to transfer title. Those are things that as a state government you can do. For us, for example, with things like our Doing Business reforms, some [one] of the things that we are going to recommend is: can there be multiple authorities to sign some of these certificates, these documents or must it be solely vested in the governor? Those are conversations that you can have at [the] sub-national level. So I won't say that - look, repealing the land use act today, is it the easiest thing to do? No. But there are other things that you can do, to your point, to work around some of the challenges that you face there. So, yes, there are some fundamental problems that you have to deal with, to answer you, and those must be existential ones because you have limited gunpowder in government. You can't waste that gunpowder on something that is not supercritical. So you've got to find, what are the one or two existential issues? On these issues, I'm ready to put my political legacy on the line. On the rest of the issues, we'll work around them (as) on a case-by-case basis.Tobi: Okay, so let's talk about investments. Which obviously you need to make some of these things happen. And we know that even the country as a whole faces some serious balance of payment crisis. So, now, what (again) in your own experience and relying on best practices, what are the cheapest source of driving Investments really really fast? Some people talk about the diaspora, for example - I think currently the World Bank says remittances is about $22billion even though the government disputes that...LaughsI always say that as a government or as a public servant, you must ensure that you are there to support generational change. - AOTobi: But you'll also see that a lot of those remittances go to welfare for families, for individual households. So how much of an investment source can they really be? What is the template, what is the practice really, of really really driving investment?Akin: Honestly my personal view, is that diaspora flows for our economy help to stimulate consumption. I think to your point, it's a social welfare program. People are trying to supplement low-income relatives, primarily.Anecdotal information suggests that maybe 10-15 percent of those flows actually go into investments, most of that also into real estate...primarily, real estate investments. I think that where we sometimes need to look at better are domestic investment opportunities. And I think that subnational sometimes focus a lot more on foreign investments, sometimes to the detriment of existing capital locked in the country. There's a lot of capital locked here that I think we can unlock. I mean, one of the things that people talk about, for example, is "how do we divert pension funds into infrastructure projects?" I always say that it's a very tricky conversation to have because a lot of those pension funds are already invested in things like treasury bills...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: Which is even going to the government, but, for me, it's not even how do you divert Pension Funds into government-driven investments? It's how do you use government to guarantee some private investments? So, a good example for me is, instead of saying I want to raise a bond as Ekiti State Government to build a power plant, why can't I have a private power plant, go and raise that capital from the capital market knowing that Ekiti State provides a backstop guarantee of some sort that, at the very least, you're going to earn a minimum revenue...so having a minimum revenue guarantee of some sort that allows that deal to become bankable.So let's say Tobi & Co. goes to build a road and knows that I can toll that road because the regulatory environment allows me to do that in Ekiti. And the state government then says "well, if you don't make your two million naira a day on the road, I'm happy to supplement that to ensure that that minimum revenue is achieved. Those are the ways for us to make projects more bankable. You're not really lending to the government, you're lending to private enterprises who have a backstop guarantee of some sort from the government. Sovereign risk is a big deal, so I'm keen to say let's deal with people who are already doing business in Nigeria. People who are already doing business here are important... are more important than, I'll say, getting fresh investors from outside the country. Because these are guys who already banked... they back Nigeria. They're like, okay, we're happy to do business here, we understand the country risk, we understand the business environment. It's a lot easier to get those guys through the line. It's a lot easier to say to a Promasidor, for example, come and take over our diary farm in Ikun than to say to someone who has never done business in Nigeria: come and do business in Ekiti. It's a lot easier to talk to a Dangote, a Stallion to say, come and set up rice mills in Ekiti than someone who has never done business in Nigeria. So I think you have to get a fair mix of both and also to ensure that when you bring in investors, you have the aftercare service that ensures that the guys get exactly what they want out of the state [be]cause there is herd mentality around investment. Capital flows to where returns are optimised.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And the best way to demonstrate optimisation of returns is the capital that has already come in here - what has it gotten? Which is why I always say to people that regardless of whatever issues you say MTN has in Nigeria, MTN is a good example of optimising capital and it brought... if you see the people who came on the coattails of MTN, you know, Mr Price, ShopRite, all these guys, they came to Nigeria...even if it's the fear of missing out that brings you in, the people will come. It's like a restaurant, it doesn't serve the best food but if I hire 50 people to stand outside pretending they are on a queue, you're more likely to stop there to eat because you must think there's something good about this food that is driving these long queues. So restaurants have been known to artificially increase the size of the queues just to get people like you and I to come and join, and when you get in there, you find out that the food is not great you're already... you're sucked in anyway. So I think for me, first is, optimise domestic capital flows. There's a lot of capital that sits in this country today or even sits outside the country owned by Nigerians that we have to bring back. It's only when domestic flows invest in the productive sector in the country that you start to find that foreign capital will come in. We have to use the domestic capital to demonstrate the viability of investing in Nigeria. So I always say that we'll mix both. We'll go offshore looking for capital but we will also call local capital in. And part of what we have been doing in Ekiti is even meeting with people who currently do business in Nigeria to say to them "this is a great place for you to do business and this is why?"We must ensure price stability" which then ensures that people can save a lot more of their income… - AOTobi: Okay. Okay. So my bit of pushback against that is that - okay, now, say you're trying to industrialize, and you favour domestic investment, what about technology and knowledge transfer?Akin: That's a great question, honestly. You know, the truth is: it's not going to be one or the other. And I think that it's finding the balance. Because knowledge transfer is not geography-based, right? There is nothing that says that the knowledge does not exist in businesses today in the country. I mean, when I talk to some of the BPO players (the guys who run Business Processing Outsourcing businesses in Nigeria), some of the guys are doing transformative work that I won't have believed existed in this country. These are things that I think happen in Vietnam, in Bangladesh, in Mauritius, but it actually exists in Nigeria. The biggest constraints they have: quality broadband; talent. Now, those are constraints that we can take away. If as a state we say to Main One, pay a hundred and thirty-five naira per metre to lay fibre to Ekiti, it becomes a lot cheaper to get the infrastructure to a place like Ekiti. If we say we are happy to offset the cost of training people as long as you, as the BPO company, agrees that you take on these people when they complete the program satisfactorily, that's a cost that we take away for you. Everybody is happy, The State is happy, the people are unemployed; Nigeria is attracting a lot more investment in that space. I think that there are pockets of excellence where you can say (look) knowledge transfer is even easier to achieve with local capital. So there's nothing that says that (no) because the capital is local you can't import the knowledge, there's nothing that says you cannot import the technology but I'm just saying that you have to recognise that if you do not have local skin in the game...Dangote refinery is a good example, will you tell me that that project doesn't come with knowledge or technology transfer? It does. But whose capital is it?Tobi: It's his.Akin: It's local capital.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And that's the thing for me that if your local capital is not taking risk in your country, it's very difficult to attract foreign capital. That holds true for most places. If you take a country like - again, I'm sorry I always go back to China. But if you take a place like China, you find that a lot of the capital that was unlocked was domestic capital. Look at South Africa - one of the reasons why the South African government or [the] South African economy can sustain systemic shocks is that there is already significant domestic capital mobilized. That any systemic shocks you find can be buffered by local capital and that's where, for me, if you ask me and I know we've not gotten into a macro conversation.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: But if you ask me, the Central Bank's single objective today, has to be price stability. Because, what you find is that people are not able to save, household savings is non-existent.Tobi: Wiped off.Akin: Is wiped off. Because people are spending 65-70 percent of their incomes on food. So when you spend 95 percent of your income on existential issues: food, shelter, clothing; there's nothing to save. If you cannot mobilize domestic savings, then where is the shocks [buffer] against systemic issues with foreign investment? Because whether you like it or not your ability to attract foreign investment is not dependent on you, there are external shocks that affect that, right?Tobi: Yeah. Akin: If The Fed raises rates by a hundred basis points it affects how much capital comes into Nigeria.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: So we must be saying, "look, we must ensure price stability" which then ensures that people can save a lot more of their income and then that, at least, it helps to stimulate a domestic investment environment.Tobi: From what you're saying, it seems there is a lot of...and I've been seeing that a lot with a lot of development work...there's a lot of planning. If your economy is not developed, there's a lot of planning to actually jump-starting an economy. Now, what does that do to your free market sentiments? Akin: You know, I'm a Deng apostle to a large extent...Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: I always say that the people I follow, the sentiments I espouse, I treat them like a Christmas hamper. I take the things I want out of it...Tobi: Okay.Akin: The ones I don't need I keep aside. So when sometimes I tell people that: look, I love Deng; they tell me: but this guy sanctioned the death of students...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And I say look, Deng human rights, er...Tobi: Record.Akin: Record, I don't need. But his liberal views on opening the Chinese economy, I want to take that. I try to say that I'm ideologically fluid. There are parts of a capitalist market that I like, there are parts of a social welfarist market that I like. I feel that, yes, the poorest people need to be supported, [the] poor and vulnerable people need to be supported. I feel that workers need to be protected, but I also feel that capital needs to get significant returns to continue to invest. I don't hold any firm views. I think that the plans for a country will always be dependent on the time and the situation that the country finds itself. For example, I'm a card-carrying member of the All Progressives Congress (APC), people say there are no ideologies in Nigeria, I disagree. APC is a left of centre party...Tobi: Really?Akin: Yes. It's a social welfarist party and that's why if you think about things like the social investment program, this is the only time you have seen in Nigeria where there's been a very ambitious, you might say, overambitious social investment program targeted at various groups of people including people who are vulnerable and that's a sign of an ideology. It's the one part of the APC manifesto I can say, 100 percent, has been implemented. But you know why it's important to do that today is that there's an existential problem in the country. If people cannot eat, you can't educate them. So when we say there is a homegrown school feeding program, it's not a waste of money. Nutrition is a big part of education; because if the kids do not eat properly, there's nothing...they can't learn nothing. Even getting kids to school...even if you say they're sending their children to school to only go and eat, at least the kids are going to school. So having something like a homegrown school feeding program, for example, is, for me, something that I will... forget the economic impact of supporting farmers and cooks and etcetera, that's even like a spin-off. The real impact is getting kids to school. And so for me, the next level of this conversation is how do we now measure the impact? How do we measure enrollments rate? In my state, for example, I think we can show you some numbers of how enrollment has gone up in schools since that program started, of how many children are benefitting from those kinds of meals. Now, that, for me, is a social welfare program that is very important. But on the second part of it - I will also say - you have to free up things like capital controls. You have to allow people bring in and export their capital as they wish... even with this capital restrictions, people will still bring money into Nigeria. So, for me, you have to take what works from different ideologies. Sometimes you're going to take some socialist principles, sometimes you're going to take some capitalist principles, and we have seen markets straddle the contradictions quite well. They will say oh, it's market socialism. People have started to mix... the closer you are to the centre now the more populist you tend to be. So I don't think that the world, especially the developing markets, will benefit from very rigid ideologies. I think that we've gone beyond that. The iron curtain is fallen now since when? Glasnost and Perestroika are long gone. So even the people who were ideologically pure have moved towards the centre...bar maybe a place like Cuba, I don't think that you will see people hold very rigid views on ideology anymore. Even the United States has some socialist protectionist ideologies. Donald Trump is a... you could argue is a republican president, right?Tobi: Yeah.Akin: But he is probably the biggest critic of globalisation today. So you find that the UK is going through a painful Brexit process. That's an anti-globalisation...Tobi: Move.Akin: Move, right? Again, pushed by whom? By a conservative party. I have friends who are die-hard conservatives. They don't speak about Brexit. They stay silent on it. But I remind them from time to time that: your party which is a conservative party is the one that took the Union to a referendum. Let's not forget that. That's not something... it's almost ...you should expect the reverse.Tobi: Not Corbyn. Not Labour.Akin: You should expect Labour to actually be the ones pushing this kind of agenda, so it tells you that there are no rigid views, there are no hard-coded views anymore in the world.Tobi: Let me ask you a bit of a comical question on that note. Akin: Uh uh.Tobi: Where does the border closure fit in the APC ideology?Akin: You know the thing about this podcast is that they ask career-limiting questions...LaughsAkin: But I'm happy to answer that. Honestly, there are some things that are existential and on the border closure people have asked me on social media for my views and I've said: "look, we have to be a bit more nuanced about this conversation." I don't think that we've optimised the decision process properly. I think the biggest thing that we could have done differently is to allow the people best suited to lead the conversation lead the conversation. Personal opinion: I don't think that customs should be leading a conversation about trade. There's a reason why we have a trade office, there's a reason why we have a Ministry of Trade and Investment. That ministry should be front and centre of the conversation and should draw in the different parties on a need-to-know or a need-to-be-there basis. So I think in terms of coordination, we have led the conversation from a customs perspective which is not where we should lead the conversation from, and that for me is the biggest issue. But should our neighbours play by the rules? Yes, they should. Is trans-shipment a major issue? Yes, it is. Is the Beninois economy designed to exploit Nigeria? Yes, it is. That is the reality.Tobi: How is that? Please explain.Akin: If you sit down and you create an economy and I'll send you some work that shows that for the last 30, 40 years, these guys have built an industry basically to rebag and repackage products against the ECOWAS protocols into Nigeria. It's a small economy, we laugh about it and say it's Nigeria's 37th state but if you think about [it]...this is not the first time we're closing borders [and] the thing is that we've repeated this thing so many times and I'm worried that we're still not learning that these are symptomatic issues and we are not dealing with the root cause. For me, it is how do we introduce technology into surveillance, into border surveillance. These have security implications. Forget rice. Drugs come in through these borders, guns come in through these borders. There are far more serious existential issues that we need to solve for. How do we do the surveillance? How do we ensure that the cultural trade flows are not shut? Remember there are families on both sides of the divide - there are Yorubas across both sides of the border - how do we ensure that these traditional trade corridors are not shut but (we) also ensured that the territorial integrity of the country is protected? So I don't think that it's a one-size-fits-all discussion. I think that it's a more nuanced conversation. Is the border closure the right thing to do? I don't know. I think history will judge but I definitely think that the Beninois government needed this kick up the backside. Now, should it start from customs? No. I think we should sit down and say what is our broader trade position and what position do we want these guys to take on board? I think we should be able to say, "look, how do we collaborate with you?" Can we, for example, because of the efficiency issues with our ports, can we have a situation where goods come in through the Beninois ports, they are processed through there and they earn a fee for that? And then those goods come into Nigeria. That is a way to think about it. Even from a Nigeria perspective, sometimes we slap levies on products that are against some of these our protocols. We have a common external tariff, we sometimes go against that and we say, oh, 70 percent duty. Meanwhile, the rest of the sub-region is charging 20 percent. But can we say to these guys "guys, you know what, out of this 20 percent you guys take 10, we take 10." Ten is better than zero. I think that what we have to be able to do is to decentralize port infrastructure to ensure that goods can move out of Nigeria fairly, fairly, easily. - AOTobi: Yeah.Akin: Let's start to have those conversations. That is the conversation that we need to have and I think that's the conversation we are not having. It can't be a stick all the time, it has to be [a] carrot-and-stick approach. We've got to say, oh, come, how can we optimise this process? These things are coming into Nigeria anyway. How do we move exports? How do we ensure that you can process some of our exports? And that's a conversation that we should have as a sub-region. How do we ensure that Nigeria's customs officials, if this is what your port is built for, we might as well embed our people there and ensure that we are seeing what is coming in? Those are the conversations I think we should have. How does Nigeria expand and before you know it...because we are the biggest economy in the subregion, we have to own that leadership; and for me, that's a bigger issue. That how do we sit with our partners and say, "okay, use your port as entry point into Nigeria as well but the trade-off is that our people will be part and parcel of your process to see what is coming in." I think those are the conversations that we need to have if we're not having. But did something need to be done? Absolutely. And I don't think this is an APC or PDP issue, this is an existential issue for Nigeria. So it's not a partisan ideological issue. This something that we need to resolve. Yes, I know that there are people who have very strong views: you should not shut your borders etc. You should not do this, free trade blah blah blah... but there is no real free trade anywhere. When you think about it critically...Tobi: It's freer trade.Akin: It's freer trade. What is free trade? There are restrictions to trade and it's a per country restriction.Tobi: It's just degrees.Akin: It's just degrees and it's about where you are as a country in your development [and] what is important to you. If the United States says today "well, we don't want to allow wheat into our country." They won't. Mr Trump, for example, is very keen to say "Mr Cook, you have to manufacture more of your products inputs in the United States." Is that free trade? So you've got to ask yourself, what is free trade? Free trade is a misnomer. Yes, you want freer trade, you want to liberalize as much as possible but you want to liberalize within certain conditions and ultimately the job of the government is to optimise value for Nigeria. How that optimisation of value happens is then dependent on where we are as a country at that point in time. So, yeah, there are other things that we have to do with the borders and there are conversations we need to have with our neighbours and I know that some of those conversations are happening. But is there a straight forward answer to that? I don't think it's a yes or no [answer]. It's not a binary conversation at all.Tobi: Okay. So now, here's my argument and a bit of a counter to your position. Yes, I take your point on territorial integrity and the need to actually have a safe and secure border. Absolutely important. But don't you think we are treating the trade issue a bit too much as a zero-sum? Yes, I get why trans-shipment is a problem but if you consider the size of Nigeria's economy and what I think our ambition should be, If we actually focus a lot of our development strategy and policies in areas like building export disciplines in high-tech manufacturing goods, I don't think it would really matter if rice is coming from the Beninois border, really.Akin: Here we go again.Tobi: Like someone, actually a guest of mine, said that rice in this dispute has become a bit of a political crop and...Akin: Was that Mr Fawehinmi?Tobi: No.LaughsTobi: No...and tomorrow it's going to be tomatoes or fertilizers or whatever. But is that really... aren't we really obsessing over table stakes so to speak?Akin: Great question and I think, honestly...first, it's not a zero-sum conversation. I always say you can walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't think that the border issue precludes us from focusing on export discipline and I think, in fact, export discipline is something that as a country we haven't paid any attention to. I spoke with someone who is very knowledgeable about exporting, so this is reported speech, and he said to me that for him today, as a CEO of a large company, he has to go through 14 steps to export his products out of Nigeria and that even prevents his company from using Nigeria as a hub for sub-regional production. And I think, for me, there are two issues: there's the single-window conversation which I hope our government - and when I say our government, our APC government - is able to resolve before 2023. I think it will be the single most important policy issue as regards exports discipline that we can resolve; just ensuring that (everybody) you can do everything in one place, and you don't have to go through the multiplicity of agency interaction. I think that is a critical part of the next wave of our Doing Business reforms, and I know that there are many stakeholders in that space that need to be managed, but I think that navigating that is a critical thing for the government. I think that obviously the port efficiency is a problem and as an individual, I'm very pleased to hear and welcome the development of new ports. I think the Badagry deep-sea port is super important. I think having something up in the South-South, potentially around Akwa-Ibom, is very important. Because, if you think about places like Calabar, people say why is that port not efficient? I don't know the economic decision of citing a port in Calabar. I don't know the draft [or] if the draft was taken into consideration. Many of the locations we're talking about are shallow draft locations that will take significant amount of money to dredge; and therefore, it weakens the business case for these ports. So when people then say "oh, why Lagos?" The most obvious reason for Lagos is the draft. So, I think that what we have to be able to do is to decentralize port infrastructure to ensure that goods can move out of Nigeria fairly, fairly, easily. But I hear you about export discipline and I hear you about focusing on special economic zones and that's why I was very happy to see the Special Economic Zone company setup. Even though that has run into some legislative challenges at the moment, we are hopeful that they will be resolved very early this year. In our state, for example...In Ekiti, we are keen to set up a Special Economic Zone: one, for the knowledge economy, and that is to export services. So things like Business Process Outsourcing which is effectively an export...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: If you think about it. Because we feel like service export helps us to leapfrog some of the infrastructure challenges that you face with industry and manufacturing. Challenges around power. Challenges around transport. Challenges around port limitation. So, we think that focusing on services helps us to navigate around those constraints; and there is no reason why we can't be a BPO hub in the country. If we get broadband and dedicated power rights, I hear from the people who should know that Nigerians speak particularly toneless English, therefore we need less accent training than, say, the southeast Asian market which is the hub of that space now. So we have a very critical upside. The other thing is that at our time zones… we are very well set for, sort of, like, the Central European market etc, and labour is cheap here, you know... cheaper, I'd say, here. We have some of the building blocks in place to be a service export destination.The other thing I'd say with the SEZ is that, we also feel that from an Agric prospective, we definitely should be thinking about exporting a lot more of our produce. And to your point, I don't see any reason why things like rice or tomato should be [a] political issue. I think for me, [it is] absolutely correct that we should be building expert discipline around agriculture and there's no reason why we should not focus on certain crops. Whether it's maize, weather it's cassava, especially with a lot of the gluten-free direction that nutrition is going towards, you know... cassava as the base of a gluten-free export market is certainly very sellable. So I hundred percent agree that expert discipline should be where we're focused, and I think that we can do both. So I don't think that this precludes that conversation from happening.Final point, I think, is, we need to think about sort of charter cities and SEZs and the legislation around that a lot better. The process where people just go and register in a free trade zone just because of tax incentives is, for me, a waste of time. Because you now have a situation where two companies are competing, one of them is paying taxes, the other one is not because they're in a free trade zone. Actually we should be giving the people that incentive if they're exporting. There are some misnomers, there are some things that need to be adjusted. If a place is a special economic zone, it should be because it's geared towards making Nigerian products more competitive internationally and if we are not able to deliver that then should you actually get the benefits, the fiscal benefits? I don't think so. Now, this is my personal opinion and these are some of the issues that I think that we need to debate a lot more vigorously. I think, just generally speaking, across all the things we've discussed, one of the things I worry about is that I think we are not having the right intellectual discussions about policy. We're there discussing which governor believes in stomach infrastructure, which party does A, which party does B, somebody brought Facebook to Nigeria...Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: This other person does not believe in free press...I think that we are losing the opportunity to have a lot of intellectual debates. You know, one of the things I love about China in the 70s and 80s [is], those guys fought themselves on the pages of newspapers with intellectual arguments and when they went to battle, it was a battle of ideas. It wasn't a personal discussion. It wasn't that I dislike you. It wasn't that you are a member of [another party], they were all one party. They were all CCP but the intellectual arguments were fought vigorously, bitterly at some point...Tobi: So, why do you think we're having problems having [intellectual debates]? Is it that our national IQ is low because China and the whole of Asia have that going for them?Akin: I don't think... I think that these guys have also developed a nation of...over a much longer period.Tobi: True.We need Nigerian intellectuals to step up their game. - AOAkin: We're talking about a civilization that goes across, you know...Tobi: About five thousand years.Akin: Five...thousands of years. In that period they've never had a period of where intellectual debates have been frozen. We have had periods where we've just had a freeze. We are twenty years into democracy, I don't think between 1979 and 1999 there was a space for any intellectual discussion, everything was done by decree and by fiat. So I think we're going to have to build that over time. I also think that our universities are not doing enough. I mean, I expect today professors of economics should be writing about the implication of land border controls, we should have papers coming out, we should have people discussing these matters. Why do we have professors of economics in Nigeria who cannot debate existential issues that face the country, who cannot say this is our view? How many economic positions do you read outside the Monetary Policy Committee of the Central Bank? Who else shares public views? You are dependent on MPC members personal statement as the basis, and in a lot of these conversations, there's a lot of groupthink.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: Because they've already made the decision and they're just now writing [the] statement to support those decisions. But I expect on the back page of our newspapers... I mean, whether or not you agree with Henry Boyo of blessed memory...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: He certainly brought a view, you might not agree with the view, but he brought a view that he actively debated. I look at our institutions and I say, where are the discussions happening? Where is the think-tank driving this conversation? If I look at the EAC [Economic Advisory Council] for example, one of the things I say to people is that I certainly am rooting for the EAC, it's chaired by my former boss, but I also feel like we've lost the benefit of having people like Doyin Salami and Charles Soludo and the rest of the members from sharing their personal views in [the] public domain. Because now, you know, they are a member of an advisory...Tobi: CouncilAkin: Council, they can't really speak publicly because it might be taken as the view of the EAC etc. But we need Nigerian intellectuals to step up their game. That, for me, is where we are missing it because... I remember there was a period where... I think it was six of us... I can't remember how many of us... did a week's...um, different pieces every day on foreign exchange liberalisation and I was amazed at the debate that it stimulated and all of us were not... I won't say that we are academics. Maybe out of five of us, Nonso Obikili was the only one that has a PhD, but it was important to have people, at least, put those ideas in the open and let's debate them. And that's one of the reasons I like that people like Feyi constantly, um...Tobi: Engages.Akin: Engage in these debates, because let's have an ideas based conversation. I think Pius Adesanmi of blessed memory said this, and said that: the reason I write is not because I want to change or I think I can change the views or the behaviour of these hard-headed government officials, but it is so that two thousand years from now someone is not going to come and say these people lived like animals and they didn't think...that in the midst of all of this madness, let them even see records that some of us were Thinkers, some of us were speaking. And I found it quite... it was quite sad for me that that was his last public post or article because it was almost like a man that had a premonition that "I might not be here for much longer but I need to let my ideas outlive me" and I think that's what we should be doing. We're talking about China now, we can read the arguments of 1978, 1984 and we can see how those arguments mirror Nigeria of 2019. If those things were not there, we won't even be able to apply them to our current realities, but who is writing the stories of Nigeria today? So I think that's one thing I will say that the intellectual debate is not public and I don't even know that it's happening. I don't know that the universities are writing, and that's one thing that we should be focused on, not ASUU going on strike. The real issue is what are you contributing to town? How are town and gown meeting? How are those two sectors interacting and integrating? It goes even beyond writing... how are we preparing people for the workforce? I was very happy to see the UI Vice Chancellor engaging, saying this is what we are doing as a university and I think that's the kind of engagement that we want to see. We want people to come and... to share their opinions. You studied economic theory for thirty years, how does our current reality fit into this study? And I think that that's how you improve the quality of public discourse.Tobi: So, now, in terms of public discourse, do you think that there is too much ideology in that space?Akin: Too little.Tobi: Really?Akin: I think there's too little.Tobi: Okay, so, I was pointing this out to someone. You mentioned the EAC, right?Akin: Uh-hmm.Tobi: I think except for Doyin Salami, really - I think every other person on that advisory council has some sort of protectionist sentiments.Akin: I disagree.Tobi: Really.Akin: I disagree.Tobi: Okay.Akin: Some are. Some have.Tobi: I know Soludo does. I know Bismark does.Akin: I don't think... I think to be honest, everybody has some protectionist ideology, everybody does. I won't say Soludo does that much.Tobi: He was opposed to the EPA, for example.Akin: But, for some good reasons. The thing is that this thing is not a wholesale opposition. There are parts of this agreement that, to be honest, do not strategically support Nigeria's economic development. You have to recognise that when people come to this table, they come to the table holding nationalistic views disguised as globalised views. At the end of the day, everybody wants what's best for them, and I think that, again, until recently and until Ambassador Sakoye of blessed memory, we didn't have an office that was coordinating our treaties, our agreements, people were signing all sorts of things without even knowing the implication of what they were signing. So I don't think that the opposition was wholesale. There are some people there whose views I can't say I know for sure. There's Iyabo Masha, for example - she used to be at [the] World Bank if I'm not mistaken. I don't think that if you spend so much time at the World Bank you would hold fairly strong protectionist views unless you were able to mask it sufficiently but there are some people that obviously, I mean, Ode Ojowu, for example, is very clear about where he stands on some of these things. But I think the mix is good and the debate...look, it's useful to have people from both sides of the divide. Tobi: True.Akin: We will improve the quality of the discuss by having the divergent views and having diversity of opinions. Tobi: So, let's talk about the influence of ideology in Nigerian politics. Is it too much or too little? And what would work in terms of generating ideas?Akin: Look, at the end of the day, I think we are still fairly underdeveloped in terms of our politics because voter engagement is still at...I'd say, at the kindergarten phase of voter enlightenment and voter engagement. I think that people are still too poor to engage in high-level discourse, and, so, for people, it's still a function of "I want to survive" which is why you find that people are willing to trade the long-term benefits for the immediacy of "pay me 2,000 [naira] and I'll vote for you." And I tell people that, look, this is similar to Lincoln back in the day. I don't know if you remember, Lincoln's slogan was: vote yourself a farm. (And) I joke about it and I say [in] Nigeria the [slogan] is to "vote yourself a pot of stew".LaughsAkin: But if you think about it at that time, people were only interested in "give me land" in the US. So when you're faced with existential issues, people can't think about ideology. It's too abstract...they're looking for mundane...they're more mundane in their expectations, you know. But I think that when you start to improve the quality of life, people then can start thinking...it's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: They start to think about "oh, what's more important? Who's thinking about education? Who's improving healthcare?" I say to people that, look, you should be able to say, as a woman, my biggest issue today is maybe "gender mainstreaming", maybe "maternal mortality" and say "look, I'm going to only support a government that emphasizes these two things". If you do not agree to these three issues, then we will not vote for you. The unions are very good at it and this is why [what] I always say about the stubborn minority - the unions, the market women; whatever you say, they get whatever they want. You might disagree with what they want but they get it. The trade unions get it because they will just down tools and they force you to a table. Now, how do we as a broader population start to force people to that table? And this is why I think that the advent of social media is a good thing because more and more...I mean, I was happy to see people engage in a discourse around foreign exchange and exchange rates. Everybody suddenly became an Economist and had a view of where the Naira should be trading. You know, it's a good conversation to have. People are now saying should we close our borders? Whether those views are knowledgeable or not? I want those views on the table. Those are views to have. They are important views so I don't... I think that we are still at a growing phase and I think it will only continue to improve but we're definitely going along that continuum. It didn't happen overnight anywhere in the world, the quality of the politics, the quality of the discussions did not improve overnight, it took time and we have to bank some of those marginal gains. Let me ask you a...okay, well, you are the one asking the questions so I won't ask you a question...Tobi: Shoot.Akin: But think about '99 and 2019...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And where Nigeria is in its politics, we've advanced... in the quality of the discussions we're having. Politics in 1999, nobody even knew who those guys were. They had no antecedents. I mean, I voted AD in '99 not because of anything but just decide, oh, this is the party of our people. This is Awolowo's party. All you needed to win an election in Yorubaland in '99 was to do the peace sign and wear the Awolowo cap. Some people like Asiwaju did not even need the cap, he just needed the peace sign.Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: Once you were endorsed by Afenifere, you were locked in to win an election. Now, nobody really bothers about that. Whether they support or they oppose you, people a lot more independent in their views. Back then if you were Ohaneze Ndigbo you win in the South-East, I don't think that that holds very much now. Otherwise, APGA would be the dominant party in the South-East.Tobi: But to pick up on that point, wouldn't you say that was better in some sense? Okay, if I'm voting in the South-West, for example, and whether true or false if someone is running on an Awolowo platform, I know the antecedents of that...Akin: But the truth...Tobi: I know the history of that...Akin: But the truth of that is that people only use that... some people use that as a vehicle to get power. It's not because they believed in the philosophy of man or the philosophy of the UPN or the Action Group. Tell them to tell you any part of the AG manifesto that they know. They don't but they've realised that people took things at face value and if you wore a cap and did a peace sign you win an election. Tobi: But is that any less preferable than 2000 naira at the polling unit that we have now?Akin: I'll tell you one thing...I'm a big fan of marginal gains as you might have suspected, there were times... look, till today, the election that was superintended by Maurice Iwu, show me anywhere where you can find the breakdown of results whether real or imagined per polling unit for the presidential election. The's a summary, take-it-or-leave-it there's no breakdown of the election anywhere.Tobi: How did he get away with that by the way?Akin: The point is Obasanjo made him get away with it. Let's be clear... so let me tell you one thing: I'm not saying elections are perfect, the fact that people are paying for you to vote for them means that they believe your vote counts...(because if you don't pay) Let's be honest about this, right? If I'm paying you 2000 naira for you to vote for me what does that tell you? It tells you that they need you to act to vote to win the election. They actually need that act from you. In 2007, in 2011... by 2011 things has started changing but as of 2007, you did not need that physical act of voting to happen. What I'm saying is that things have shifted... you might... people can disagree and it's an opinion, but I'm saying things have shifted, they might not be perfect or close to perfect but things have shifted and our goal is to ensure that things continue to shift. Maybe in 2023, we will create a situation where you can't even tell how I have voted to remove the incentive of paying me to vote. INEC did some things like, say, we don't want to see mobile phones, etcetera. We're going to keep improving the process. I think that we have moved. People are now saying, oh, we want to... some people will say oh, PDP wanted to infiltrate and hack our servers. Somebody will say the results on the server was different from the one you published. We are now having a conversation where we've moved the realm of the debate to cybersecurity... Tobi: Cyberspace.Akin: And cyber attacks. Ten years ago the conversation was they snatched 20 ballot boxes.Tobi: [Laughs] But they're still snatching ballot boxes.Akin: But it's reduced.Tobi: Yeah... yeah.Akin: Let me tell you, if you think about it, twenty years ago people were saying, look, we did not even vote here.Tobi: True.Akin: We are reducing those issues. Social media is helping us democratize those issues. If you look at the 2019 elections, whether real or manufactured people were reporting issues in their polling units on the go. You could tell even just looking at some of the results per PU who was going to win an election where. Ekiti elections for example - I was away, I was not even in the country on the day of the election and when I saw the results from my polling unit, I knew immediately that Dr Fayemi had won that election, because we were on course to win Ikole local government, which is my local government, which is a place that, historically, we've always struggled with as a party. So you can tell that look, elections are starting to count, matter a lot more. It's not perfect, it's not anywhere close to perfect but let's not say that there have not been any gains and I have my views on one of the biggest reasons why we've seen those gains. It's the absence of General Obasanjo...President Obasanjo (apologies) from mainstream politics in Nigeria.Tobi: Why? Explain that.Akin: Because I think that the winner-takes-all mentality that he personally projected transcended beyond him and then influenced, broadly speaking, political parties on the country. I think that President Yar'Adua, Jonathan and Buhari have been less involved in ensuring that their parties remain dominant across the country. President Yar'Adua, for example, he had an "I came in through a tainted process...Sometimes keeping the people you meet in government is as important or more important than appointing new people. - AOTobi: Yeah.Akin: And, I am embarrassed by it and the way I will resolve it is by taking my hands off and saying let the will of the people be done. President Buhari, for example, has shown a willingness to work across parties with the governors. If you talk to the governors in Nigeria today, all of them are united in the fact that regardless of our political parties this President is happy to work with us. There was a time in this country where ecological fund and all these special projects were only reserved for gov
The Hermit's Lamp Podcast - A place for witches, hermits, mystics, healers, and seekers
This week I'm joined by the one and only Ty Shaw. We dive deep into our connections with the Orishas and Ty talks us through some of her sexual empowerment work and how they all connect. Her work covers old traditions and new traditions, and her dedication to her practise is inspiring. This is one not to be missed! Connect with Ty through her website. If you are interested in supporting this podcast though our Patreon you can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. Thanks for listening! If you dig this please subscribe and share with those who would like it. Andrew transcription ANDREW: Welcome to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am hanging out today with Ty Shaw, who is a fascinating human being. She practices a bunch of different traditions, and brings a lot of, you know, experience in a lot of different ways through life and spirituality to the conversation today. So, for folks who don't know who you are, Ty, why don't you introduce yourself? What -- Who are you and what are you about? TY: Oh, my god. Ooh child. Well, I am Ty Shaw, like you just said, and what am I about? I'm a Iyalorisa, palera Mambo, and a lot of other things, oh iyanifa, that's the most recent one! Always forget to list that one! ANDREW: Right. TY: And basically, what I have been doing is working with people within the tradition. I was obviously with my spiritual house, and the various, you know, people that I service in my communities, but my sort of day job now is in the space of sacred sexuality coaching, intimacy coaching, and really bringing, particularly, well, people in general, but women in particular, in alignment with sort of their spirituality and their sexuality, and kind of bridging that gap, and working in a space where people understand that when you talk about sacred sexuality that you don't have to look to India or to China or to Japan or to these other places, that we do have concepts of sacred sexuality from an African context ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: If you're willing to actually look at what we're doing and examine what we're doing. ANDREW: All right. Well, why don't you enlighten us on that? Because I know, you know, being a babalocha, right, you know? That sex, at least sex in general is very, we keep that inside of the Orisha tradition, you know, not inside of the tradition, but outside of the relationships and the connections there, you know, and people are often like, very slow to even get into conversations like that, because there is such an emphasis on having proper relationships and where those lines are ... TY: Right. ANDREW: So, where does that come from in what your experiences are for you? TY: Well, that's exactly why I do this work. Because our traditions are very conservative in how they look at sex ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which to me, is not only counterproductive but contradictory, because everything we do mimics a sexual act on some level. If we want to take, say the babalawo for example, when the oluwo is pounding ikin, the oluwo is mimicking copulation, such that ikin, or odu, can give birth. When we go into the igbodú and we want to birth a new priest in the process of a kariocha, we are using the leads, singing the songs, doing the invocations ... ANDREW: Sure. TY: To get certain elements to give birth. You know, if we're sitting on the mat and we're divining with the odun and odí falls, or some iteration of oché, or something out of ogunda falls, we're going to be talking some sexual shit. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: I do! TY: Can you talk -- we deal with deities who cover these specific things. And, we deal with energy. We're priests. We understand that, just from a basic scientific perspective, that energy is neither created nor destroyed. It's how it's directed. So that means there is no difference between spiritual energy and sexual energy. And the fact that we vibrate on a different level as priests because we actively cultivate our energy -- we're cultivating our sexuality as well. And I think the fact that our traditions are so conservative, and don't allow for these deeper conversations, even though the liturgy, odu, the deities themselves, do speak of these things and act in these ways, because we haven't had these conversations and developed that language, we have what we see now, which is the manifestation of a plethora of, or an abundance rather, of sexual dysfunction, in an out of ritual in an out of the room, and a community of priests who are manipulating energies, but really have no basic concept of what energy is, how it works, and what you're conjuring. [laughs] So that's why I decided to get in that space. ANDREW: Yeah! So, when you're ... because lots of people who listen to this are not going to be practitioners of ATRs, or, you know, diasporic traditions or those things necessarily, let's pull this apart just a little bit more. Because I know exactly what I think you mean -- I mean, you're going to tell me if I'm right -- but -- I think one of the things that we want to make clear, is that some of the dysfunction that I think that you're talking about, I mean there's obviously the people who are having challenges themselves, which is a separate issue, but then there's the sort of dysfunction of people taking advantage of relationships, godparents, or other people who should be obeying a taboo that is like a parent to a child ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, or having relationships and using their power and position to take advantage of people. Right? We're talking about these kinds of things, right? TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Well, one thing about that, we're talking about even in our intermittent relationships, we are seeing a lot of abuse coming to the surface, because of Facebook, sexual abuse, women who are being raped by their babalawo husbands, or men that I've encountered in this tradition who come seeking guidance and were molested by a godparent. You know? We have an abundance of people of color, amongst those people of color are women of color, and I personally in my adult life don't know any women of color who haven't experienced sexual abuse or sexual assault. So, we have this abundance of sort of sexual trauma, that comes up in our relationships in so many different ways, whether it's the baggage we bring to the tradition, or whether it's the abuse of power because of the dynamic within the tradition. But we still because of our conservativism, we don't have that conversation. ANDREW: Right. TY: And when we do, it's an accusatory one: You abused me. You did this. You didn't do booze up the bembé. You tried to take my husband. You know. But we don't necessarily have conversations around what the solutions are. What we're going to do about it. How do you fix them? If you're a babalawo that's married, and you have your apetdabe, how are you cultivating that sacred relationship? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because that's our version of it! [laughs] You know what I'm saying? In a certain way. On a certain level. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: How are we cultivating our intimate relationships? How does that affect our vibration and our energy and how we cultivate our Ase as priests, and then what does that look like in terms of how do we treat each other in our interpersonal relationships? ANDREW: Sure. And how are we dealing with our own ... I mean, even if we don't have the kinds of traumas you're talking about, you know, we all exist in a culture that, you know, experiences toxic masculinity, and rape culture, and all of these bits and pieces and all sorts of exploitative pieces left over from a long time, in our culture, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: And how do we look at ourselves and become clear about what is our desire? What is real? How do we communicate? Where does consent fit? TY: Right. ANDREW: You know, all of these things, right? Like these are important pieces ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Of cultivating ... Well, I mean, being a decent human being, for one, but like, and certainly being a spiritual human being for another, right? You can't. TY: Yeah. And we can't deal with these forces that again, we're engaging in sort of spiritual sexual acts in the process of giving birth and getting odu to conceive and put something out there that's new, and then appeasing this newborn thing via ebbó. We do these things, but there's a disconnect, there's some sort of cognitive dissonance, you know, between the act and the metaphysical understanding of the act, you know? Mmmhmm. ANDREW: I also think that people don't understand energy, as you kind of said earlier. Right? TY: Yeah, exactly, exactly. ANDREW: You know, one of the things that I noticed when I became a priest was, all sorts of people who started hitting on me who weren't hitting on me before. TY: Yeah, because you were orisha. ANDREW: Right? And I got Shango on my head, right? I mean, that's going to draw some heat, right? And, you know, and the thing is, is that, if I wasn't mindful of it, if some of my elders hadn't said, hey, this is probably going to happen, take it easy about that, then you'd get into all sorts of trouble, right? Because what's going on is those people aren't necessarily attracted to me ... TY: It's that energy! ANDREW: They're feeling that energy, and they want more of that, but we don't understand how to get close to spirit, or how to be intimate with human beings, and not frame that in a sexual context. Right? TY: Or, if it's in a sexual context, that doesn't mean we have to act in a debased way. How about receiving the energy because we are, like Shango is the pillar of virility, male virility, male marknotism, that's his Ase, and it is sexual, there's no way around that. How about we accept that that's what it is, internalize it, and use it for what it does? As opposed to saying, well, I feel arousal, this means I must screw, this means I must ... you know. As opposed to no, these are what vibrations and energy do, and you know that's why I started getting into vibrational medicine, you know, prana, reiki, tantric projection work, because we already have heightened vibrations as a result of having gone through ritual. And ideally, we're cultivating our Ase, cultivating ori, we're developing and uplifting that vibration. But so many priests I would have a conversation with about energy, vibration, how we magnetize it and move, there was just such a lack of understanding, and a lot of times I feel that we're doing ebbó, we're killing chickens, but what you need is a chakra cleanery, what you need is a past life regression, what you need is some spiritual counseling, it's an issue on a base level with your vibration. Which ebbó does address, through the power of sacrifice, but you're still not internalizing that in your vibration. ANDREW: Well, it's like I popped my collar bone out of place, recently, right? And, you know, I went to my osteopath and put it back in place, but the reason I popped it out of place, was cause muscles in my back were out of balance, and that is a physiotherapy thing, and so now I need to be ... you know, and so, and I think that that's true on many levels, right? Spiritual practices can make adjustments ... TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And, in different kinds of spiritual practices, can be that physiotherapy ... TY: Right. ANDREW: But it's rare that one does all of them at the same time, right? You know? It's like you go for a reading with the Orishas, and they're going to, you know, realign your vertebrae, and be like this is where you should be and then you're going to leave, and all those wonky muscles and your habits are going to want to pull you back out of place, right? And whether that's energetic, or your circumstance, or your psychology, or whatever, right? Or the various baggage you're carrying with you? That's all that energy that wants to kind of disalign you again, right? TY: Right. And I think that's one of the major critiques I've had, like if anybody has seen my Facebook videos, I've done a lot of critiquing about what I think is healthy versus what I don't think is healthy, right? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And in that sort of process, not understanding energy has led this new generation of people that are kind of coming into the tradition with a level of ... how would I say, like a lack of respect for tradition? And in that process, they stereotype and pigeonhole certain energies because there's a fundamental misunderstanding of energy. So, like for example, I see this wave of new women coming into sacred sexuality, and not everyone's a child of Ochún. Because they think, okay, Ochún, sacred whore, sacred prostitute, no idea where that comes from, but this is what they say, and this is what they think, right? When it's like, Ochún, first of all, it's a stereotyping of this energy, because you don't even understand what you're talking about, it's a pigeonholing and it's a limiting of her, because depending on the road, you might be dealing with the crone, you might be dealing with the witch, you might be dealing with the demure healer, you might be dealing with something like Ochún Ibu Kwanda, the warrior. Who ain't got nothing to do with your coquette. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? TY: When people don't understand energy, when we don't understand how things work, and we stereotype, and we pigeonhole, we do everybody a disservice ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: We don't, we don't get access to the thing, you know, that's really going to ... ANDREW: Yeah, I think that, I think it's challenging, because there's such a profound and sort of largely ... If you're outside of the tradition, largely inaccessible depth and diversity that's there, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: You know, how many roads of Ochún are there? How many roads of ... you know? You know, this, that, and all those other spirits, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And what do those things mean, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: And what do ... and what if you're dealing with, I mean, you know, if you're dealing with those, or running into those, or if those are the paths or avatars that are sort of engaging with you, it's completely different to have one versus the other, right? TY: Yeah, right. ANDREW: There's the Yemaya who pulls you down to the bottom of the ocean, right? TY: Yep. ANDREW: And leaves you there! TY: And leave y'all! ANDREW: Right. And then there's those other paths that are going to love you and hold you while you cry and pat your back, right? TY: Oh, there's this my path, Achaba, who's just the shady one, who don't want to ... ANDREW: Yeah. Right? TY: You know. There's koha ibun shade .... ANDREW: [laughs] TY: But I love her, I love her. But that's why, like in my work ... Okay, I had become a palera , I became a iyalosha, I became a mom, though I became a iyanifa, and then I was like, well, why do I want to do any of this? What does this mean to me? What does priesting look like for me? ANDREW: Sure. TY: Do I ... Am I going to be able to do it in the way maybe my elders did it? Do I believe in the same things? What is this priesthood thing going to actually play out for me? And I found that in ... And I'm a young santera, you know what I'm saying, so, I mean, I'm 5 in Ocha this year -- no, I'm six. Am I six already? Shit! But anyway. ANDREW: It's really stacking up, right? [laughter] TY: You know, so I'm a baby olosha. Infant. And, in the process of me coming into adulthood as a nealOrisha, growing up and kind of going through adolescence, now, I have to ... I decided to consciously ... consciously move into priesthood. What is this priesthood thing going to look like for me? Where is going to be my medicine? What's going to be my point of departure? And that has always been whole person healing. What am I dealing with? What is Yamaya bringing to my doorstep? And yes, I can solve this with ebbó, but after ebbó, what is going to -- and that creates transformation -- but what's going to last? What's going to stick? What's going to change behavior? You know? And that's when I decided to go ... that my route was really as a healer ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Getting into the spiritual development of the person, and then when I was trying to figure out well what healing would look like, outside of energy healing and spiritual cleanings and stuff, what I found is, that what people were lacking was the counsel and a way to really work through trauma, particularly trauma held within the body, of a sexual nature. And our tradition was no exception to that. So, it spoke to me of just the niche, that made sense, that I could kind of slide on into, you know? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: So right now, it sounds like priesting for me is looking like being really woman/Goddess-centered, really witchy, and really focused on long-lasting transformation. ANDREW: Mmm. TY: In or outside of an igbodú or a new set of elekes, or the reception of a new Orisha. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: [laughs] You know what I'm saying? ANDREW: For sure, because so many, you know, I'm also a relatively young olocha, you know, but lots of people who come around for that part of what I do, they, so many of them almost show up with their shopping list, right? They're like, I'm coming to you, I want you to give me my elekes, please confirm that I'm a child of whomever, you know? And like, and so on, and it's like ... I don't know. Like, you know, let's see what happens, right? Whereas, when people come to me in my sort of card reading and you know, that other magical side of my life ... A lot of those things are more like what I think that all of it should be, which is, let's see what's going on, let's talk about what you need, let's work on this, and make that change so that it endures, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: Because it's so easy to, you know, when I made Ocha, Shango basically said to me, it was like, "Hey, welcome, you're here, so go fix your life, cause you've got some things that are messy that you made, and now you gotta go fix em cause Ocha can't do it," and I was like, "All right. Huh. That's not what I was hoping!" [laughs] TY: Right? ANDREW: You know? TY: Shango has a way of just popping that bubble. He kind of gave me something similar, in my Ita, Shango, he came down talking bout "You do not know how to live, and now you need to learn how to live. Learn how to live in this life, or you'll learn how to live in the other," we hear that refrain. You know? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And I think I had a similar trajectory, like, I love teaching, you know, cards, crystals, all the airy fairy witchy stuff, because even though I had extensively studied African tradition, I studied traditional forms of witchcraft as well. I was a proper neoPlatonist high ceremonial magic type of witch [laughs] for a ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [[00:19:10] astrological magic, like, I came from Bea too, so ain't nobody going to get me to leave my cards behind, and none of that, but ... And I felt like there was space for that. Like there were, you know ... And spiritualism gives you that opportunity, right? To bring in anything you want? But, people would come with their shopping list, well I want this, I want to be crowned tomorrow, I need you to take me to Haiti, and then after that take me to Africa, and I want this and I want that, and usually my attitude is like, that's cute, that's what you want, you know, good for you, you are clear on your desires ... ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Which is ... [laughs] What do you actually need? Now that we've gotten through your laundry list, what's actually getting ready to happen here? ANDREW: Yeah. TY: Cause guess what, I don't move, unless Yamaya tells me this is what has to happen. ANDREW: Oh yeah. For sure. TY: [laughing] ANDREW: That piece of ... I don't know what the right word for it is ... understanding ... that the Orishas that sits on our heads, you know, and live with us, that nothing happens without their say so. Something so largely foreign to most people's concepts, right? You know? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Like I remember, many years ago, I got this reading, and Aleyo was like, "No tattoos for you this year," and I was like, "huh, all right, fair enough, I'll stop," right? I had a bunch of stuff planned and I stopped. And a lot of people couldn't understand how I could be just like, "okay"? Like what if he never says yes again? And I was like, "Well, that's cool, I'll roll with that." But that's so hard for people to roll with, right? You know and because ... I think in part because we're encouraged to be ego-centered in a way that is hard to wrestle with ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But also because of all these traumas that we've been talking about, right? TY: Yes. ANDREW: How much harder is it for someone to put that kind of trust in somebody, if they have, you know, whatever kinds of traumatic experiences and abuses from people who should be ... who were supposed to be there facilitating them? Parents, priests, guides, whoever, right? TY: You know, I agree with that, because it's about several things. It's about shifting from a very Western individualist self-absorbed ego-centric way of being and moving through the world, which I'm not even judging, because those are actual tools we need to survive in the West. ANDREW: Sure. TY: [laughs] Okay? A certain amount of selfishness is necessary for your survival in this place. However, it does create a learning gap. Because you kind of have to cross that bridge to understand how everything functions in this particular tradition. And the unique thing about this tradition is that it's not just all this ... I think we also get really idealistic and we think that we have all these proper African values, and we don't. We have diaspora values, because if you rob them [22:09?] of cultural nuances they don't recognize in Africa. They're not doing that. And we have to separate the caricature of Africa that we have, this ideal ... this, you know, ideal, you know, Africa that doesn't exist. What we're dealing with is post-colonial Africa, that has just as much white supremacist misanthropic bullshit as any one of us. ANDREW: Yeah. Well and also, you know, which part of Africa are we talking about, right? You know? Are we talking about ... TY: Thank you! Thank you! ANDREW: Are we talking about, you know, Ifé, are we talking about the Congo, are we talking about wherever, like, you know, I mean ... TY: Right. Right. ANDREW: I know people come in and they're like "well, you know, I was talking to a Sengoma, and that's exactly like what you do," and I'm like, "No, not really," like, in a general way it's animist and whatever, but other than that, no, it's not the same at all, right? TY: Right. And that's a problem. they think of Africa as a monolith, as one like homogenous sort of thing. They don't understand the level of nuance. And this is why I've always battled these faulty notions and assertions of purity in this tradition and who's more pure, who has the right way, who's the closest to the root? And it's like, nobody, because what is properly African is that we've always assimilated, and brought in what works, and transformed and adapted. And if you go to Nigeria right now, what they're doing in Ejife, is not what they're doing in Oyo, is not what they're doing in Abayokuda, is not what they're doing in Oshopo. They're all doing something different! Compound to compound, region to region! Because there's always been sort of that gap to allow for spirit, to allow for adaptability, that's how we learn. ANDREW: Well, and I think that that's the power of lineage, right? You know? TY: Sure. ANDREW: Like, what you're going to do, you can't do anything ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: But you can do anything that fits within the bounds of your lineage, right? TY: Exactly. ANDREW: And that's the real meaning of, like, oh, in my house we do this, it's like, you know, lots of people use that as a justification for what they don't know or to just do whatever they feel like, or be like, oh, I can't get that, so you know in my house now, now we give turkeys instead of chickens, cause they're easier to get, or whatever, right? And it's not ... that's not valid, right? What's valid is understanding what's going on within your lineage, and then honoring and working with that, because that is something, those are the spirits that we're calling on to work, right? You know, in one way or another. TY: I've always been a bit of a lineage snob. Particularly in this day and age where people feel that they can self-initiate and they can get their head marked via tarot, and they can get initiated online, this, because, the thing about lineage, right, when I ... I try to explain this to new people, it's like if you're a Christian it doesn't mean that you all believe the same thing, you might be a 7th Day Adventist, you might be a Baptist, there are denominations here. And I feel that we've gotten to the point in our traditions where we have denominations, okay? And within each denomination, lineage becomes important because that's going to imply style, technique, and approach. Okay? We may all believe certain things, but how it plays out, how it looks in ritual, our approach to ritual, technique, that's going to be based on lineage. I think Palo is a great example of that. When you tell me the ramen, you tell me the house, now I know what kind of Palo you do. Because that's what lineage dictates. What types of agreements do you have with the forces you have the ability to access and conjure, and what do your ceremonies look like? Because everything outside of ceremony, ritual, and the protocols associated with them, that's what we dictate and what we have a blueprint for. Everything outside of that is between you and your spirit. You got to work that out! And that's why lineage gives you the blueprint, right, for how ritual, what makes you a certain thing, what makes another thing a thing, then outside of that, that's all you, boo! ANDREW: Yeah, for sure, right? ANDREW: It's all about getting to know what your particular Orishas like and want, right, you know? I mean, cause people always want to do big ceremonies, and more often than not, you know, if I cook a little amala ila for Shango, he's gonna eat up and get whatever I want, right? You know? Like, it's easy, once you sit and listen. Once you understand and build that connection. But, you know, but that quest for purity or truth or like, the solution, you know, it's not always bigger and better things, it's learn to work what you have, right? And then apply that and then you can go from there. TY: And insofar as learning to work what you have is concerned, I think that's another challenge, because one of the main critiques I sort of have of our traditions right now is that I don't think people are practicing African tradition or African-inspired tradition. I feel like they're Christians in elekes. Because they kind of bring all their Christianity and dress it up in nice African fabric and put beads on it, but it's still Christianity. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I find that that is especially true with how we understand and approach Orisha. Sometimes our relationship and approach to Orisha is devotional, and sometimes it's not. I'm not always on my knees begging like I'm praying to the Lord, sometimes I'm sending Orisha on a mission, and I think people have forgotten that, and I see that that disconnect comes in mostly since the African American involvement in Orisha tradition. The reason why I say that is because [00:27:56--garbled] coming up with these older Cubans, Puerto Ricans ... I have seen them be like hiding drugs in Ocha, or getting a custom Elegua out cause they want some shit to go down or they busting somebody outta jail, it wasn't this elitist thing, and it wasn't so ... the level of Christianized judgement, and this just pray to Orisha and give agomu, I don't work with Uheria, that's very different, because we have songs, we have liturgy that calls us powerful sorcerers and sorceresses, and how we work with Orisha. I think that we have to reexamine what our relationship is. Is it this Christianized devotion? Or sometimes do you work with Orisha like any other sorcerer in any other tradition? And what are these ideas that we're bringing in that are foreign and counter-productive? Because if you are just purely devotional, right? and you just throw in so that you can appease Orisha and get on your knees, do you really know what that Orisha likes and how it could work for you or how you could get up and make something pop when you need it? Do you really know that? Or do you know how to appease Jesus on Sunday and beg? And does that make you a priest? Or does that make you a slave to some spirit? And you call it Ocha? ANDREW: Mmm. Well. I had the, I think, good fortune, it's one of the best gifts that I think my parents gave me, which was to not be raised with anything. So, religion was nonexistent in my household. Which, you know, I think was tremendously liberating compared to where a lot of people come from when they come into these things, right? And I think that this question of what is, what does it mean to exist with a magical religion, right? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: Is something that is quite different than what a lot of people expect or understand, right? And it's neither as simple, at least in my experience, as "Hey, dude, I was sitting on the couch playing video games all month and I need some like money for rent, hook me up," right? TY: Right. ANDREW: That doesn't necessarily work either, right? I mean, maybe? Maybe the first time, maybe sometimes. Or you know, “bust me out of jail,” or whatever ... TY: Of course, there's spontaneity. Right. ANDREW: But it's also not. TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Not that either, right? You know? And sort of this distinction between the things that we want and need to live in this world and live in this life, right? TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: I mean, they are there to facilitate those things. TY: Right. ANDREW: And -- TY: I think it -- ANDREW: Go ahead. TY: No, no, I'm sorry, go ahead. ANDREW: Well, I was going to say, and, they are there cause they can see how we can free ourselves from the problems we make for ourselves, or the problems other people bring, and sort of move beyond them, or move and minimize them as we go through life, right? Because ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: You know, life is complicated, right? TY: It's the battle of the Osobos and the Iré, right? All these forces of negativity that exist in the world on many levels ... ANDREW: Right. ANDREW: And some of those come from us, too, right? And learning to overcome those ones that are ... Not in a "we're all sinners" kind of way, like we've all got baggage, we've all got tendencies, maybe we're lazy, maybe we're too greedy, maybe we're hateful or whatever, and those things undermine our lives, and we need to ... you know, it's that balance of both, I think, right. TY: Right. ANDREW: Cause literally people come into the shop and "I need you to Santeria somebody," and I'm like, "whatever, “Dude, I don't even know what you mean, but no." Like, forget it? You know? yeah. TY: I see -- I mean, I see your point. I guess what -- not I guess -- one of the things I'm resistant to is elitism in this tradition. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: Because it has become elitist on a number of levels just because of the price point, the introduction of just the academia, you know, into this? So, there's also an intellectual elitism here ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And with that elitism, there's been sort of this political attempt to Christianize in terms of its values, and what we do, we don't do that, and it's like, um, but we do! Because I remember very distinctly being called for those basement ochas that we had to do in an emergency cause somebody was going to jail, or, you know, [laughs] somebody has some illness, and it was a bunch of poor people in that ocha in a project apartment saving somebody's life. I remember when it wasn't elitist. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know? And there wasn't any shame around doing an obra versus an ebbó. And how I'm distinguishing those terms, when I say an obra, a work, something that you don't throw for, that you go, you put it together, and you tell Orisha, versus ebbó that comes out of a divination and Orisha done told you! ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: I remember that, there being a distinction and watching santeros move in that way. I remember that there wasn't the stigma and the shame around, yo, maybe I do need to come up with my rent cause I'm getting put out of my house and I need to go to Elegua to open a door. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: I remember because there was no stigma around that. ANDREW: Well and, I hope I didn't come across wrong, because I think there should be no shame. Right? We are all where we're at, and we're all in places and life is complex and variable and many things happen, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And, you know? There are those times when we need to make those things, or to, you know, kick 'em in the pants a little bit and be like, "Elegua, dude, rent's due on the first, it better be in my account before that, my friend, it needs to happen, or we're all in on the street," right? or whatever, and I think there should never be any shame in any of that or in needing healing or, you know. I mean, all of those things, I think that we're all human and we all need those things all the time and we'd be foolish to think that that's not going to be the case, right? But I also do agree that there's a tendency to try and niceify, right? You know? TY: Yep. You say it even more in Nigeria. You see it even more in the Nigerian priests, with this attempt at, you know, Christianizing Ifa because of the onslaught of just attack from Muslim- and Christian-kind in Nigeria. ANDREW: Sure. Right? And you know, and it's ... you see it in a lot of, you know, more fringe places, right, you see it in the LGBT community, right, and all those extra letters too, where, it's like, well, look, we're just like you, we're this way, we're that way, and that's true for some people, and for other people it's not, right? And I think that those kinds of diversity ... it doesn't benefit anybody either to leverage one group down so that we could sort of be up, right? You know in the way that like, historically Palo and Lucumí traditions went through that conflict, right? You know, there's the historical divide, right? TY: Well, still. ANDREW: Well still, but like, you know, there were specific historical events where, you know it was like all of a sudden, well, you know, we'll throw the Palo community under the bus for this ... TY: Yeah. ANDREW: And show how legitimate and good we are, right? TY: And they're still doing it. I was very resistant to making Ocha for a lot of years, because I was palera for a long time before I became an olosha. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: And one of the things that I've [35:39--inaudible]... that I was really resistant about, was what I call Lucumí-, or Yoruba-centric [distortion/inaudible at 00:35:51]. You know, Yorubas tend to posit themselves at the top of this whole priest -- overstep their boundaries, an Orisha priest telling you, you have abatowa crown, get rid of your nganga. How? Why is it you feel that your tradition gives you the right to tell somebody what can and can't happen in a completely separate practice? Okay? And that's your eccentric elitism. That's Lucumí-centric elitism. And we see it because Lucumí is the most expensive initiation, that people feel like once they get crowned they've arrived, honey, they got the big crown ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And it perpetuates this contention. It also perpetuates a lot of misinformation. Like Cholla is not Ochún. She will never be Ochún. Saramanda is not Ogun. Nusera is not Elegua. [laughs] You understand what I'm saying? ANDREW: Yeah. Well and I think it's part of that desire or ignorance that promotes generalization, right? You know? TY: Yes. ANDREW: I mean, it's not 100% true, but I often sort of think, if there's an odu that says you shouldn't do that, then that means there's not a general prohibition against it because it's required to come up, right? And I mean, it's a little too cut and dry maybe, but I think there are so many things where people want to sort of posit a set of rules, like obatala should never drink, you know? TY: Mmmhmm. ANDREW: These people are going to be this way, this spirit's going to be that way, once you're a priest you should never do whatever again, and it's not that way, you know? It doesn't need to be that way. TY: Right. ANDREW: And that is that sort of stereotyping and you know, sort of modeling ideas that are not universal ... TY: Yes. ANDREW: But people want to make them, either because it gives them power, or cause they don't know better, right? TY: Yes. And in some cases, it's just superstitious and unnecessary. Like, I'll give you an example. I went to an Orisha birthday, to go see someone's Orisha, and you know in the process of ocha birthdays, we're sitting, we're gossip, we're talking shit. We get into a conversation about firearms, right? Because I don't go nowhere unarmed, okay? I'm a black woman living in the USA. I'm going to be ... if you see me, you're going to see ... ANDREW: I've seen your Instagram! TY: [laughs] You know, so ... we were talking about firearms, and there was a priest that was much older than me, I feel like she was in her 20s, and she was like, well you know, none of us carry weapons, we've all blunted all of the knives in our house because many of us have ogun [garbled at 00:38:38] in our Ita, and we give that over to Ogun. And I was like Er? What the hell does that have to do with your ability to protect yourself? Number one, did ogunda come in some harsh osogbo that told you to deal with the entire house, and what does any of that have to do with my basic human right to defend myself? ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And then her response was, you know, well [inaudible--some missing audio? at 00:39:07] Ogun, I'm not going to take on Ogun's job, but I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you, there's nothing he could have ever told me in Ita that would have had me unarmed for the rest of my life, not as a single mother, hell no. There is nothing you could have told ME that would have made me put down my firearms. And there was nothing that I heard her say out of her Ita that made any of that make sense to me. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: That sounded crazy. But I hear this level of superstitious ignorance that manifests in general taboos for entire houses, all the time. Now suddenly one person's Ita is everybody's Ita. It's crazy! ANDREW: Sure. Well and I see -- I've seen that prohibition with that piece of advice come out in a reading for somebody, and it didn't surprise me, cause that relationship in that house was on the edge of exploding into physical conflict maybe, right? TY: Right. ANDREW: And so, like there are times when that stuff can come out and should come out, but that's where you gotta look at your life and see what's going on, right? Like I -- Somebody came to me for a reading and you know, it was one of those like, hey, the Orishas love you, hugs and kisses, see you later, right? And it was like, okay, when should I get initiated? And I was like, why? TY: Cause you're not about that. Right. ANDREW: “Are you sick? Are you broke? Are you ... like, what's going on?” And they're like, “No.” I'm like, "You're good, you don't need it, don't worry about it." You know? So, I think that that, yeah, it's where you need to be understanding about yourself and your relationship, right? TY: Yes, yes, and move beyond superstition. I think that we have a very sophisticated methodology and system of divination that doesn't give us ... we don't have the burden of having to have superstition. Or even faith, to a certain extent. We do divination, we do ebbó, ebbó works. [laughs] We trust that it works because we've seen in work. You know? We have divination and confirmation. ANDREW: Sure. TY: Which is one of the reasons why I like this tradition. Cause I ain't got to be believing in no pie in the sky! You do divination, you do the ebbó! [laughs] ANDREW: As Crowley puts it, right? TY: Right, right! ANDREW: As Crowley puts it in one of his books, success is your proof, right? That's it. Certainty, not faith, right? TY: Ase, and I've never done well with faith. Which is why Palo and Vodou make me happy, you do something, something happens. ANDREW: Right. TY: [laughs] You know? So. It's all of that, all of it. ANDREW: So, I have a question for you about the intimacy counseling and the work that you're doing with people, right? So, is that a energetic thing? Is that a spiritual practice? Is that like -- Where do the intersection ... Cause I'm always curious with people who practice a bunch of different things and then have outside people come and engage that, right? TY: Yeah. ANDREW: Are you engaging people within their own practices? Are they coming to you for practices? How does that look and work for you? TY: So, usually, it depends. People who have no relation to this practice but just need sex and intimacy coaching usually look like regular old clients. They book an appointment, we have some talk therapy, and then I do a healing. That healing may be energetic, like in tantric projection work or energy work that they need to clear out some trauma. It may be a past life regression or some spiritual cord that I have to cut cause of what they're dealing with. It may be physical, because as a somatic sex educator, we also guide people through certain body practices, so for example, if I have a person who is ashamed of their body as a result of trauma, has never masturbated. I might do guided coached masturbation, or I might have a couple who want to reinvigorate their sex life and they want to learn new techniques, so I'll guide them through it. So that's where the body-based therapy might come in. Someone in the tradition, it will probably start with some type of spiritual reading and see what's happening with you spiritually and then how that plays out in your life in the form of coaching. And the sex tends to be, especially in the tradition, talk therapy only. It comes out in my spiritual counseling, so like for example, I might do a divination, and let's say I see a lot of odí falling, and I know that there might be some addiction stuff, or some sexual trauma, some abuse, some other things, that that letter would point to. Well, I'll do the ebbó, I'll get that out of the way, but then after that I'm going to book a spiritual counseling session, and let's talk about what made that manifest on that, and what really needs to happen with you energetically and spiritually and hold space for that. And sometimes that is talk therapy around their sexual trauma, because of course, that letter fell and that oftentimes points to rape or molestation or all kinds of stuff, right? ANDREW: Sure. TY: In addition to that, as a tantrica, when I lead workshops with people, mostly single women or couples, they're looking to bring the sacred into their bedroom in a certain way. In terms of my tantra training, I came through, I'm an initiated tantric, I was initiated in the Shri Vidya lineage, a Debi Kudarum, very goddess-centered, and to me, it ain't nothing but some Indian Palo honey, I don't know, cause you know, they with them goddesses, they put out them yantras, honey and you get to chant and then that thing MOVES, okay, but in addition to Shri Vidya tantra, I studied Ipsaun tantra, Shakti pat, I received several activations, and I am now studying grand trine active shamanistic tantra. So, I will teach them how to do tantric projection, like no hands, no touch, energy orgasms, healing the body and the trauma energetically, and even just tantric lovemaking, tantric interaction. And I've found that people in this tradition, even though the two don't overlap, they are very interested in it, because again, we don't have a space to have these conversations. We don't have a way of talking about how we can relate in a spiritual manner [laughs] that, you know. ANDREW: Well, we're all human beings, right? We want to ultimately, I think, one of our desires, for almost everybody, is to want to show up on every level for the sexy times, right, you know? Cause once you understand or experience other levels of awareness ... TY: Right. ANDREW: You know? You want to bring that everywhere, right? But as you say, it's not really a ... there's not really a mechanism for that. TY: Right, right. I mean but the thing is I feel that we do, we do have our concept of sacred relationship because for, in my opinion, when the awo, and his apedibi, Soday, and marry, that's our sacred relationship, when the Ialosha and the Babalosha marry. They ... that's our sacred relationship, because now you have the bringing together of these two powerful entities that can birth something. Now what's going to change it is the context, the intention, the consciousness, and what you're going to put forth in it. But the fact that it exists ... I think is ... I think if it didn't exist there would be no need for the Babala to have an Apedibi, to have that feminine counterpart to the masculine, you know? To bring about that balance and uplift his Ifa. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? So, we definitely have it, but do we understand what we have? Do we not articulate it? And then what does it mean? So, you know, doubling back to your initial question, your average person looks like talk therapy and then whatever body-based somatic therapy they may need according to their issue. The average person in this tradition, I kind of keep separate, and it stays on like a counseling, I have to counsel them one on one, because a), having the conversation itself is damn near taboo, as conservative as we are, and b) you can't bring that into ritual, you've got to do ritual first and then have a separate conversation about that. ANDREW: For sure. Yeah. Mmmhmm. I've got to say I dig how you're navigating all that. TY: [laughs] Yeah. ANDREW: So, I've got one more question for you before we wrap up. TY: Uh huh. ANDREW: So, how do you sustain all these traditions you're doing? I get a little tired just hearing about it! [laughs] TY: On a schedule. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah! TY: Well, I work for myself, so I wake up, usually I have sunrise meditation and yoga, and then I tend to my ancestors and whatever loa might be that day, so Tuesdays I'm on my Petro, and you know, whatever, Thursdays I'm on my rada, and then I go ahead and reap my Orisha, my ifa, and I keep it moving. At night, I normally deal with my prendas ... ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: And I try to keep my workings to them around what's going on in the sky, and I mostly work that outside and at night. And you know, loa gives you a schedule, cause loa has to be served every day, and you know, it's certain people that you serve on certain days. Orisha, all they need daily is to breathe, pour libations and keep it moving, you know? I might throw to my Orisha, you know, my head Orisha once a month, Elegba, maybe once a week, appease him, you know, my little Sundays or Mondays, I keep it moving! You know, they, it's just ... it's such a part of my lifestyle, it's I wake up, yoga, meditation, greet Luwan, have your day, come back, say hello to the Palo people, go to bed. You got ebbó to do, do your work. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: [laughs] ANDREW: I love it. I mean I think it's one of those things, right? So many people ... I hear many people who kind of say that they want to live that kind of life, right? You know, that that's what they're looking for. TY: You gotta be built for that life. ANDREW: Yeah. [laughs] ANDREW: Yeah, cause you know, I mean, it's one of those things, right? I mean, you know, I mostly just, I mean I work with my, you know, my spirit guides and my Orisha, right? But like, it takes up a chunk of time and energy and it takes a real consistency of focus that I think that is challenging, you know? I know that I certainly when I was starting out struggled with it. And that sort of scheduling it, and just being like these are the ways that things happen, that's it, right? TY: Yeah. That's it! ANDREW: The obligation needs to be sustained, right? TY: Yeah, and I think because I didn't do it back to back. Like I had years in between each so I kind of was able to get acclimated, develop a routine, before something else came in, you know? And they're separate, I keep them separate, like they each have their own room, their own space, all of that. But they function in similar ways. ANDREW: Mmmhmm. TY: You know what I'm saying? They function in similar ways. ANDREW: Yeah. TY: So, every day if I get up and I greet my ancestors, that's gonna be a new tradition. And today, you know, I might have to blow some rum [inaudible at 00:50:04] You know what I mean? So, I mean it's not as far in or as complicated as some people make it sound. ANDREW: [inaudible--asking to repeat] TY: I said it's not as far in or complicated as some people make it sound. Even if you were just the palero, right? You're not sitting with your nganga for hours every day! You're not doing that! ANDREW: No. TY: Or most, you get up, you greet, you light 'em up and you keep it moving, unless you got something to do! ANDREW: Yeah. TY: That doesn't change, cause you got other things. ANDREW: That's true. And they've got other places to be too, right? TY: Right! ANDREW: Like they're not sitting 24 hours a day waiting for everyone. “Oh my god, I'm not bringing the tv down here, you know, we're not watching our shows together, I'm getting sad about this,” that doesn't happen, yeah. TY: They should be out there fixing the problems in my life, not sitting here! [laughs] ANDREW: Mmmhmm. For sure. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for making time today, Ty. TY: Yep. ANDREW: People want to come and find you online, where's the best place to come and hang with you? TY: http://www.iamtyshaw.com. ANDREW: Beautiful! Go check it out! TY: Yes. ANDREW: All right. Well, thank you. TY: Yes, thank you! We'll talk soon. All right, bye.
Sparrow was born in the fishing village of Grand Roy, Grenada, on July 9, 1935. He moved to Trinidad with his mother, his father having relocated there in 1937, and grew up in Port of Spain.His songs such as Jean and Dinah, May May, Sa Sa Yea, Unity, Melda O, Jail, Pay as You Earn 'PAYE', Age is Just a Number, Drunk and Disorderly, Wanted Dead or Alive, Human Rights, Sexy Marajhin, Capitalism Gone Mad, The Lizard, The More the Merrier, and countless others, are just some of his best known and best praised songs. His songs have put him in the spotlight and earned him worldwide recognition. He is still a prolific performer today, and shows no sign of stopping.The Mighty Sparrow has a string of credits to his name. Chief of the Yorubas, which means "Chief Omo Wale of Ikoy" as he is known throughout Nigeria, and in New York, the late Mayor Ed Koch proclaimed March 18 the Mighty Sparrow Day. With honourary doctorate degrees, doctor of letters from the University of the West Indies, he was inducted into the Sunshine Awards Calypso and Steelband Music Hall of Fame on June 24. Then Brooklyn borough president, Howard Folder, proclaimed June 24, Mighty Sparrow Day. We can take some beauty lessons from him too, especially when it comes to keeping his great smile. His face is still instantly recognizable by multiple generations of fans. The man is a fashion icon and trendsetter within the calypso and soca music industry. There should be a musical about his life; let's hope that someone will produce it soon. Dr Slinger Francisco, the legendary Mighty Sparrow, or as he is fondly known "Birdie", a West Indian calypso icon, celebrates his 81st birthday on Saturday.
Sparrow was born in the fishing village of Grand Roy, Grenada, on July 9, 1935. He moved to Trinidad with his mother, his father having relocated there in 1937, and grew up in Port of Spain.His songs such as Jean and Dinah, May May, Sa Sa Yea, Unity, Melda O, Jail, Pay as You Earn 'PAYE', Age is Just a Number, Drunk and Disorderly, Wanted Dead or Alive, Human Rights, Sexy Marajhin, Capitalism Gone Mad, The Lizard, The More the Merrier, and countless others, are just some of his best known and best praised songs. His songs have put him in the spotlight and earned him worldwide recognition. He is still a prolific performer today, and shows no sign of stopping.The Mighty Sparrow has a string of credits to his name. Chief of the Yorubas, which means "Chief Omo Wale of Ikoy" as he is known throughout Nigeria, and in New York, the late Mayor Ed Koch proclaimed March 18 the Mighty Sparrow Day. With honourary doctorate degrees, doctor of letters from the University of the West Indies, he was inducted into the Sunshine Awards Calypso and Steelband Music Hall of Fame on June 24. Then Brooklyn borough president, Howard Folder, proclaimed June 24, Mighty Sparrow Day. We can take some beauty lessons from him too, especially when it comes to keeping his great smile. His face is still instantly recognizable by multiple generations of fans. The man is a fashion icon and trendsetter within the calypso and soca music industry. There should be a musical about his life; let's hope that someone will produce it soon. Dr Slinger Francisco, the legendary Mighty Sparrow, or as he is fondly known "Birdie", a West Indian calypso icon, celebrates his 81st birthday on Saturday.
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