Podcasts about agric

Dive beneath the waves into a world where innovation meets sustainability in this episode of Secrets of Survival (S.O.S.). Dr. Susan Rashid explores the groundbreaking realm of underwater farming—a transformative practice reshaping our planet's approach to food security, environmental sustainability, and global nutrition.  From aquaculture's role in meeting rising protein demands to the promise of kelp as a climate-change ally, and from submerged greenhouses like Nemo's Garden to the ancient art of seaweed farming, this episode offers a captivating journey through the blue frontier. Discover how underwater farming blends ancient wisdom with cutting-edge technology, offering solutions to humanity's most pressing challenges.Explore the motivations driving this movement, including its potential to combat climate change, empower coastal communities, and provide sustainable, nutrient-rich foods for a growing population. Learn how this innovative approach creates harmony between humanity and nature, fostering a future where both thrive together.Join Dr. Rashid for an inspiring and thought-provoking journey through the depths of the ocean, where tradition and modernity converge to build a sustainable and hopeful tomorrow.  Listen now to uncover the untold story of underwater farming and its profound impact on our world.Ocean Waves, Sound Effect by Lynda Smith, MissyWhimsyArt from PixabaySoothing Piano Harmony, Music by Universfield from PixabaySound Effect Seagulls, Sound Effect by Scottish Guy from PixabayBubbles Underwater, Sound Effect by LIECIO from PixabayOcean Sea Soft Waves, Sound Effect by Mikhail from PixabayMarket, Sound Effect by freesound_community from Pixabaybamboo, Sound Effect by freesound_community from PixabayReferencesFAO. 2024. The State of World Fisheries and Aquaculture 2024 – Blue Transformation in action. Rome. The State of World Fisheries and Aquaculture 2024.Devi, Ningombam Sushma Devi, et al. "Nemo's Garden- the world's first-and only- subterranean greenhouse (A review article)." Eco. Env. & Cons. 28 (4): 2022; pp. (2038-2041). http://doi.org/10.53550/EEC.2022.v28i04.058. Fabbrocino, F. 2021. "Basil and strawberries growing underwater: future farming and the case of Nemo's Garden." Lampoon Issue 24. Basil and strawberries growing underwater: future farming. Gamberini, S. 2021. "We Created The World's First Underwater Garden." Retrieved on 23 January 2025. 'We Created The World's First Underwater Garden' - Newsweek."Nemo's Garden”. Nemo's Garden. Retrieved on 23 January 2025. http://www.nemosgarden.com/"GreenWave." GreenWave. Retrieved on 23 January 2025. GreenWave."Food." United Nations. Retrieved on 23 January 2025. Food | United Nations. Aydinalp, C. and Cresser, M.S. 2008. The Effects of Global Climate Change on Agriculture. American-Eurasian J. Agric. & Environ. Sci. 3 (5): 672-676. Wright, Luka Seamus et al. “Climate-driven shifts in kelp forest composition reduce carbon sequestration potential.” Global change biology vol. 28,18 (2022): 5514-5531. doi:10.1111/gcb.16299. "Water security: How to ensure access to water in a changing world.” World Economic Forum. 14 January 2025. Water security: How to ensure access to water in a changing world | World Economic Forum. Rabanal, H.R. 1988. "History of Aquaculture." Lecture contributed to the Food and Agriculture Organization/United Nations Development Program. http://www.fao.org/docrep/field/009/ ag158e/AG158E02.htm."Towards Blue Transformation: A vision for transforming aquatic food systems." Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Retrieved on 23 January 2025. Towards blue transformation.  

Chris and Doran are joined by David Yardley from Moongoat Coffee out of Costa Mesa, CA to discuss a series of papers discussing the emergence of mold in coffee. Mold is bad. Ochratoxin A is bad. But how much of it is there, and how bad does it have to get? The three papers: Food Sci. Biotechnol., 2018, 27, 891. J. Agric. Food Chem., 1998, 46, 673. Food Chem. Toxicol., 1995, 5, 341. The article can be found in coffee literature library: https://pages.uoregon.edu/chendon/coffee_literature/coffee_lit_rev/. About David: Coming up from the entry level job at Starbucks, David is now the leader of Moongoat coffee, a roastery and series of cafes in the southern Californian region. Introduction preamble: Don Pettit

Bryan Acheampong, the Minister for Food and Agriculture and Member of Parliament for Abetifi in the Eastern Region, announced that approximately 574 dams are fulfilling their intended purpose. He made this statement during the monthly economic update at the Ministry of Finance

Measures put in place by the food and Agric ministry and ministry of defence to reduce the impact of the drought affecting parts of the country on food security.

In this episode, Oluwakayode and Prof. Yahaya Kuta discuss important facts about the Livestock Development Ministry. Join us as we explore the ministry's roles, initiatives, and the impact of livestock development on the economy and agriculture.

Send us a Text Message.Today's episode comes to you from Shaftsbury Vermont, where we visit with Lisa McDougall of Mighty Food Farm. We start off the episode with a tour through her seven greenhouses and glance at some of the equipment that she's using to farm over 14 acres of vegetables. We then pull up a stool in the greenhouse and have a deeper conversation about how she got started farming, And what she's done to maintain employees and customers and run a business for over 18 years.Support the Show.Visit the website to see photos/videos from the visit: https://thefarmersshare.comFollow the show on Facebook and Instagram: @thefarmersshareSubscribe to the YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@thefarmersshare

Chris and Doran are joined by Camila Khalifé to discuss, "Unmanned aerial vehicle to evaluate frost damage in coffee plants", appearing in Precis. Agric., 2021, 22, 1845. The article can be found here: https://doi.org/10.1007/s11119-021-09815-w About Camila: Camila founded Botánica in Quito, Ecuador, and is also a Coffee Quality Institute Quality Evaluation Assistant Instructor. Introduction preamble: Roderick Mackinnon.

Over the past few weeks we've highlighted how South Africa is poised for a massive upgrade in the talent occupying its Parliamentary benches. As political competition intensifies with the imminent loss of the ANC's majority, new faces and new parties are being drawn in. Among them are ActionSA's Athol Trollip and Pieter Scribante who share insights with BizNews editor Alec Hogg. Sign up for your early morning brew of the BizNews Insider to keep you up to speed with the content that matters. The newsletter will land in your inbox at 5:30am weekdays. Register here.

Today's Episode comes to you from Danville Vermont where we visit with Jacob Mills of McDonald's Farm Stand. We start off the show with a tour of a newly built 30x40 wash/pack space. Then continue through several high tunnels and talk about spinach, tomatoes, tulips and more. We talk about field production as well and wrap the episode with a brief tour of his sugarhouse before they started to boil for the evening. Support the Show.Visit the website to see photos/videos from the visit: https://thefarmersshare.comFollow the show on Facebook and Instagram: @thefarmersshareSubscribe to the YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@thefarmersshare

Former General Secretary for New Patriotic Party, NPP, John Boadu has reacted to the statement made by former Minister for Agric, Kwesi Ahwoi ‘s advise to Prof. Jane Naana Opoku-Agyemang to prepare for presidency should the need be

Minister for Food and Agriculture, Dr. Bryan Acheampong, has said the price of kenkey is gradually reducing due to the abundance of maize on the market.

No episódio 28 do Lupus in Fabula: Pele de Cordeiro, Rodrigo Grola, Marcos Keller e Cussa Mitre e Paulo Gaio falam sobre as questões tecnicas e biológicas envolvendo o uso do Ayahuaska.   LiF: Pele de Cordeiro, uma produção HodStudios   Apresentação: Cussa Mitre, Marcos Keller e Rodrigo Grola ………………………………………………………………………………………… Alguns trabalhos envolvendo Ayahuaska 5-Hydroxytryptamine Receptor Subtypes and their Modulators with Therapeutic Potentials https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3318857/#:~:text=5%2DHT%20is%20autacoids%20as,numerous%20behavioral%20and%20physiological%20functions.) Behavioural and neurotoxic effects of ayahuasca infusion (Banisteriopsis caapi and Psychotria viridis) in female Wistar rat https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26049017/ Carbonaro, Theresa M and Michael B Gatch. “Neuropharmacology of N,N-dimethyltryptamine” Brain research bulletin vol. 126,Pt 1 (2016): 74-88. Gardner, D., Riet-Correa, F., Lemos, D., Welch, K., Pfister, J., Panter, K., 2014. Teratogenic effects of Mimosa tenuiflora in a rat model and possible role of N-methyl- and N,N- dimethyltryptamine. J. Agric. Food Chem. 62 (30), 7398–7401. Lindsay P. Cameron and David E. Olson Dark Classics in Chemical Neuroscience: N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) – ACS Chemical Neuroscience 2018 9 (10), 2344-2357 https://www.nucleodoconhecimento.com.br/saude/ayahuasca-na-doenca-mental - O POTENCIAL TERAPÊUTICO DA AYAHUASCA NA DOENÇA MENTAL - TELES, Thábata Barros de Sá Development and challenges in the discovery of 5-HT1A and 5-HT7 receptor ligands https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0045206822006605#b0120 Ayahuasca: Psychological and Physiologic Effects, Pharmacology and Potential Uses in Addiction and Mental Illness https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6343205/#:~:text=%5B69%5D%20reported%20that%20ayahuasca%20produced,hemisphere%20(areas%20involved%20in%20somatic Serotonin 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C Receptors as Potential Targets for Modulation of Psychostimulant Use and Dependence http://dx.doi.org/10.2174/156802606778522131   ………………………………………………………………………………………… Apoie o Lupus in Fabula! https://www.catarse.me/lifhod ………………………………………………………………………………………… Linktree LiF: https://linktr.ee/lifhod ………………………………………………………………………………………… Todas as opiniões e comentários feitos pelos convidados do programa são de inteira responsabilidade dos mesmos. As opiniões emitidas não exprimem necessariamente o ponto de vista de nenhum dos membros ou da HodStudio. … Apoie-nos em Catarse.me/lifhod e assista ao vivo as gravações deste programa! Quer aprender tarot? Acesse o site do Mitos Modernos! Quer aprender runas? Acesse o site do Runologia!   Siga-nos em nossas redes sociais! Twitter: https://twitter.com/lifhod Instagram: https://instagram.com/lifhod Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lifhod   Assine nosso canal no Youtube! YouTube.com/lupusinfabula

In this insightful and engaging Dacurate podcast episode, we delve into the remarkable story of how Thrive Agric, under the leadership of Uka Eje and Co-Founder, Ayo Arikawe, triumphed over the challenges posed by the tumultuous year of 2020. Ayo candidly shares the strategies and decisions that enabled the agricultural technology startup to navigate the storm and emerge stronger on the other side. Ayo Arikawe doesn't just recount the highlights of Thrive Agric's journey; he goes deeper, offering invaluable insights into the integration of artificial intelligence within the agricultural space. Learn about the game-changing applications of AI in optimizing farming practices, enhancing productivity, and ensuring sustainable agriculture. Ayo's expertise sheds light on the transformative potential of technology in addressing crucial challenges in the industry. Moreover, the episode takes an introspective turn as Ayo candidly shares the number of things he would do differently if given the chance. This episode serves as a treasure chest for entrepreneurs and business enthusiasts, providing a rare opportunity to learn from the experiences of a successful startup co-founder. Whether you're passionate about agribusiness, intrigued by the impact of AI in traditional industries, or simply seeking inspiration from entrepreneurial journeys, this podcast episode is tailor-made for you. Ayo Arikawe's dynamic storytelling and wealth of knowledge make this conversation a compelling listen, offering not just information but actionable takeaways for anyone interested in the intersection of technology and agriculture. Don't miss out on this captivating episode that promises to reshape your perspective on the future of farming and business. Don't forget to subscribe to the channel.

Whether the civil-liability provisions of the Fair Credit Reporting Act, 15 U.S.C. 1681 et seq., unequivocally and unambiguously waive the sovereign immunity of the United States.

Civil Procedure: Do the civil-liability provisions of the Fair Credit Reporting Act waive the sovereign immunity of the United States? - Argued: Mon, 06 Nov 2023 21:7:11 EDT

Dept. of Agric. Rural Dev. v. Kirtz | 11/06/23 | Docket #: 22-846

"Plusieurs débats au coeur de l'actualité, les Grandes gueules ont le choix, en débattre ou non : Le siphonnage d'Agric-Arrco par l'État Le boom du vélo

What are the various grains growing in South Africa? And what economic conditions are shaping the coutry's agriculture? Learn all this and more as Wessel Lemmer, general manager of AgBiz Grain, takes us on a journey through South Africa's grain industry.  About the guests:Wessel Lemmer, general manager of Agbiz, is an experienced agricultural economist with a demonstrated history of working in the financial services industry. He is a strong research professional with a M.Sc.Agric. focused in Agricultural Business and Management from University of the Free State/Universiteit van die Vrystaat.Episode topics: South African grainsSouth Africa's economic conditionsChallenges facing the grain storage sectorTo find more helpful resources, be sure to visit the GEAPS website and the membership page.  Grain Elevator and Processing Society champions, connects and serves the global grain industry and its members. Be sure to visit GEAPS' website to learn how you can grow your network, support your personal professional development, and advance your career. Thank you for listening to another episode of GEAPS' Whole Grain podcast.

Welcome to NASCO Moments Podcast. This episode is titled "Agric-business Credit Facilities."Our guest is Mr. Samson Ishaku Bugama - Managing Director Agrikeys Services LimitedHappy ListeningNASCO GroupClick Here to follow us on Instagram

Welcome to NASCO Moments Podcast. This episode is titled "Viable Options to Improve Training, Access to Farms, Inputs and Funding Support for More Women in Agriculture." Our guest is Dr. Susan Bentu - Managing Director Agriculture Services and Training Centre (ASTC) Jos. Happy Listening NASCO Group Click Here to follow us on Instagram

President Muhammadu Buhari, in Senegal, lauded the provision of $538.05m by the African Development Bank, the Islamic Development Bank, and the International Fund for Agricultural Development for the first phase of the Special Agro-Industrial Processing Zones for Nigeria programme. He urged his counterparts to allocate at least 10 percent of their nations' budgets to agriculture as agreed in the Malabo Declaration of the African Heads of State and Government. Buhari says the Special Agro-Industrial Processing Zones for Nigeria, which is in the first phase will cover seven States in the Federation.This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/4090160/advertisement

Welcome to NASCO Moments Podcast.This episode is titled "How the Anchor Borrower Scheme can Facilitate and Optimize Agricultural Production in Nigeria"Our guest is Mr. Abdullahi Joseph Maiwada - ConsultantHappy ListeningNASCO GroupClick Here to follow us on Instagram

The dirty dozen and the clean 15....these are the fruit and vegetables recognised by the Department of Agric as having high and low levels of pesticides. In this episode, Jen shares which foods are the dirty dozen and which are the clean 15.

Overview: Today, we're going to talk about Thrive Agric, the Nigerian Agricultural technology company - we'll explore Thrive Agric's story across 5 areas: First we'll start with some context about African agriculture Thrive Agric's launch & early history Product & monetization strategy Competitive positioning & potential exit options Overall outlook This episode was recorded on September 25 2022 Companies discussed: Thrive Agric, Apollo Agriculture & FarmCrowdy Business concepts discussed: Agricultural Technology (AgriTech or AgTech), smallholder farmers acquisition strategy, Agriculture financing, Crowdfunding, Agriculture value and supply chains & Debt financing Conversation highlights: (10:41) - Africa Agriculture context (19:38) - Nigeria Agriculture context (26:14) - Nigeria crowdfunding backgroun (32:30) - Founders' background and launch story (46:48) - Fundraising (55:47) - Product and monetization strategy, (1:09:15) - Competition & options for exit (1:19:20) - Bankole's overall thoughts and outlook (1:24:45) - Olumide's overall thoughts and outlook (1:32:25) - Recommendations and small wins Olumide's recommendations & small wins: Interested in investing in Africa Tech with Olumide: Read about Adamantium fund & contact me at olumide@afrobility.com Founders looking for funding: If you're a B2B founder working on Education, Health, Finance or food, please contact me for funding at olumide@afrobility.com Recommendation: Jim Rohn - How to change your life video - Incredible. He just drops non-stop knowledge bombs. Remarkable Recommendation: Toucan chrome extension to learn languages Small win: Exercise of writing 50 goals. Brought up a lot of interesting ideas. Shout to Alan Donegan for facilitating this Other content: A Thrive Agric Story. One Farmer at a Time. Bankole's recommendations & small wins: Recommendation: AI And The Limits Of Language, Lindy Hacker News & Lying For Money Small win: Strength workouts Other content: Asake - Mr Money with the vibe, ThriveAgricPR - product overview, Leadway Insurance response on Twitter, SEC Nigeria rules on Crowdfunding, Invest Like The Best - Jeff Jordan & Kevin Systrom on Lex Fridman All episodes on Afrobility.com

Topic discussed this week by Peter Broida:NTEU v. FLRA (D.C. Cir. 20-1400 August 2, 2022) (reviewing FLRA Guidance);Bishop v. Dept. of Agric., 2022 MSPB 28 (August 18, 2022) (scope of IRA/EEO allegations)Buy Dewey books at deweypub.com

This week I caught up with the founder of Nigeria Agritech, ThriveAgric, while playing football. ThriveAgric provides access to finance, technology-based advice, extension services, and global and local markets to smallholder farmers in Africa. They noticed that smaller farmers faced a lot of problems, and they wanted to provide them with solutions so that they could increase their yield and also assess a larger market. Uka shared his story of building his business, and he advised founders to take their time to relax, have friends within their startup, and embrace uncertainty. He shares that the key to solving a problem is to take one step at a time and to have the right mentors who can help you along the way. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-grinders-table/message

ฐานะที่ร่ำรวยของชาวนาญี่ปุ่น มักถูกนำมาเปรียบเทียบกับชาวนาไทยอยู่บ่อย ๆ แต่รู้หรือไม่ว่า ชาวนาญี่ปุ่นจำนวนมาก ทำนาเป็นอาชีพเสริมเท่านั้น แล้วอะไรที่ทำให้คนญี่ปุ่นสามารถทำนาเป็นอาชีพเสริมได้ ? ลงทุนแมนจะเล่าให้ฟัง References -https://www.tsunagulocal.com/th/73642/ -https://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat24/sub159/item941.html#chapter-11 -https://www.eastasiaforum.org/2022/03/03/combatting-japans-agricultural-worker-shortage/ -https://kome-academy.com/en/kome_library/origin.html -https://www.rieti.go.jp/en/special/policy-update/052.html#:~:text=For%20one%2C%20agriculture%20provides%20food,such%20as%20cultivating%20water%20resources. >-https://cigs.canon/en/article/20170112_4095.html#:~:text=The%20gentan%20policy%20is%20a,of%20subsidies%20to%20farm%20households. >-https://www.bangkokbiznews.com/blogs/columnist/104291 -http://www.crosscurrents.hawaii.edu/content.aspx?lang=eng&site=japan&theme=work&subtheme=AGRIC&unit=JWORK094 -https://www.oicrf.org/-/japan-s-post-war-agrucultural-land-reform-and-subsequent-agricultural-land-system -https://www.nfc.or.th/wp-content/uploads/download-manager-files/publishing-globalagri-news-japan-60-003.pdf -https://themomentum.co/momentum-opinion-japan-rice/ -https://japan-law-tax.com/blog/real-estate-japan/buy-farm-land-japan/

Damien is joined by James Maloney of Enterprise Ireland and guest from the world of Irish Agritech. Enterprise Ireland are looking for new Agric tech business to showcase at this year's Ploughing For more information on how to enter see https://www.enterprise-ireland.com/en/events/ourevents/innovationarena/about.html

2022 is likely to be a high-risk year for rust, based on the widespread distribution of rust in 2020 and 2021 and the wet summer.Dr Grant Hollaway from Agriculture Victoria and Professor Robert Park from the University of Sydney share all the details on the latest variety disease ratings and recommendations to help growers make informed stripe rust management decisions this season.Contact:Dr Grant HollawayAgriculture Victoriagrant.hollaway@agriculture.vic.gov.auProfessor Robert ParkThe University of Sydneyrobert.park@sydney.edu.au More information:· 2022 NVT disease ratings· University of Sydney cereal rust interactive map· Information on the stripe rust WM appFor more details about StripeRustWM and other disease management apps, search for ‘mobile app centre' on AGRIC. Project code: UOS1801-004RTX Australian Cereal Rust Control Program (ACRCP) - University of Sydney: Delivering genetic tools and knowledge required to breed wheat and barley with resistance to leaf rust, stripe rust and stem rust

The invasion of Ukraine by Russia - and the ensuing war - has brought food prices back into the news. This is happening on the back of the Covid-19 global pandemic that also disrupted the food supply chain, causing shortages and rising prices in many countries. So how should countries set national food policies in the face of risks and uncertainties? This is the subject of my conversation with agricultural economist Fabien Tondel. He is a researcher and Policy Officer with the European Centre for Development Policy Management - an independent think tank with a focus on making development policy work in Europe and Africa.Fabien's work encompasses research on agri-food value chain development, rural development and food security in Africa, and building sustainable food systems. The background to our conversation is this report (which Fabien co-wrote) on the rice value chain in West Africa. Rice is a staple in the region, it’s a commodity that has been at the heart of diverse food policy approaches (see this essay on the politics of rice policy in Ghana and Nigeria) from Nigeria to Ghana and Senegal. Fabien and I covered many of the subtle but familiar themes in food policy - like the difference between food security and self-sufficiency, whether there is a dilemma in using policy to protect producers or consumers, and the ever-present threat of food inflation.The transcript for the conversation is available below, and you can listen to this and many of our episodes on all popular podcast vendors.TRANSCRIPTTobi; I mean, like you and I were discussing earlier, a lot of the issues we tried to talk about last year, particularly in the report that was released by your institution back then on rice and the rice value chain. But not just that, food policy and production, particularly in Africa, West Africa, generally, are even more relevant today, because a lot has happened, some of the effects from the pandemic policies are really feeding into the system. We are seeing the rise in prices, we are seeing a lot of shortages, we are seeing a lot of supply chain problems. So, I think it's even more relevant to be having this conversation right now. I would like to start by asking you...it might sound a bit trivial, but in your reports released last year, why rice? I'm asking this against the background of Nigeria. Currently, the government is also talking about rice, I mean, it is towards the end of the year, there is a lot of anti-importation reaction from the policy circles. So, I guess, out of sheer curiosity, why Rice, rice is a bit of a political... we call it a political crop here in Nigeria. So why focus on rice, if you can answer that for me briefly?Fabien; Yes, Tobi. Rice is a highly politically charged product in many countries, in African countries, as well as in other parts of the world. Rice is an increasingly important part of the diet of African country populations, particularly in urban centers, where consumers enjoy this product because of its quality in terms of food, its taste, and also the ease of preparation, households find it very practical. And we've seen the consumption of rice increasing rapidly in African countries over the past decades, including in Nigeria. So, this is not a new phenomenon. We have seen it coming now for several decades, and at the same time, the policymakers have put a lot of emphasis on increasing rice production with the idea of satisfying the needs of their populations, with the idea of attaining self-sufficiency. Because up until now, imports of rice coming largely from Asian producers, but also from other countries have played a big role in satisfying the needs of these populations. And so, policymakers have found themselves in a difficult spot to satisfy the needs of the important critical needs of the population, but at the same time to deliver on the promises to boost domestic rice production as part of agricultural development strategies. So yes, it's a very important product politically. And we see that these issues, a bit, come to the surface in times of crisis. We saw it in 2008, during the global economic, financial, and food price crisis. And to a certain extent, we've also seen it during the COVID crisis, with uncertainties in international markets, disruptions in international supply chains, but also domestic food supply chains in many parts of the world that have raised concerns among policymakers, but also, in practical terms, made the life of many people more difficult by lifting food prices. So yes, I think it's still a very good time to talk about this.Tobi; And again, this is the background I'm coming from here. Because I mean, I'm going to be substituting rice policies with agriculture policies a lot. So, Nigeria typically promotes agricultural development as part of pursuing food security. Usually, the go-to policy is to ban importation. But we know it raises food inflation, which has been the experience of Nigerian consumers, and I think even in the region to a certain extent. So, it raises food inflation, food prices go up, either generally or even for that particular product. And then secondly, we don't see much increase in domestic production capacity for that particular product or for food generally. So, I guess my first question on that area would be, what other policy choices do you think exist for policymakers other than this policy of banning the importation, which does not really increase output, and at the same time raises domestic prices for food, which makes even the poorer household more vulnerable?Fabien; To answer your question, we have to consider the specificities of Nigeria. And also, the more general situation in West Africa and beyond Nigeria is significantly dependent on the importation of a number of processed goods, including processed food. So, I think it's good to say that the importation of rice from the point of view of certain policymakers also concerns other products - cooking oil, processed foods, etc. But again, because of the importance of rice for the typical households, including low-income households, I think there's a particular issue of rice. At the same time, the government of Nigeria has been very active over the years in promoting the production of rice. And it's still good to know also that there's a large part of the rice consumed in Nigeria comes from Nigeria. [Rice] is produced in different parts of the country, in particular, in the north and central parts of the country. And there's been progress in production. The question is, how far to go in promoting rice production? Is it economically efficient? Does it benefit rural households and farmers? What is the opportunity cost also of investing in rice production? In the end, you know, what is the best approach to support food security? I think just to go back also, I think to your first question about the study that we conducted, I should say that it all comes from the 2008 food price crisis. And sorry to go back to the past, but I think we should remind the auditors that this crisis caused serious concerns for policymakers, particularly in Western Africa, with the high prices and the protests in some places that it led to. And following these events, policymakers invested a lot of effort in improving rice production in African countries and in pursuing self-sufficiency. And we'll come back to it but there's a number of tools that are relevant for promoting agricultural development. But this situation of high import dependency raises the question of the role of trade policies. And not to conclude before analyzing the problems that trade is the main problem or too liberal policies; not protectionist enough is the problem or that, on the contrary, we should rely even more on trade. But our work really aimed to understand the role of trade policy amongst many factors in ensuring food security and Agricultural and Rural Development, and how this factor - this trade factor - played out in different contexts in the region, and then what policy implication we can draw from that. Now allow me to come back quickly to the case of Nigeria, which I find fascinating. I think we should say also that rice importation also takes place in a particular context, I think the Nigerian government has always been somewhat protective of its domestic market. And there's a rationale for that. And provided that at the same time there's a strong commitment and also an economic rationale for protecting the investments of farmers and industrial actors in this sector. But while Nigeria was more protective than its neighboring countries, this has also had the effect of diverting trade flows with certain quantities of rice still entering the country perhaps in more informal ways. I think we know that in West Africa, borders are largely porous. There's a lot of informal trade, which is, of course, a fact it's not good or bad. But this reality also has played a role in the Nigerian reactions in the trade policy area. We know that other countries in Western Africa have quite different policies than the Nigerian government. And again, this is not necessarily good or bad, it's a fact. But this raises the question of the policy coordination amongst Western African countries to attain food security and rural development objectives. Now, the import ban imposed by the Nigerian governments perhaps two years ago, which has lasted for some time has led to some disruption in the Nigerian market, in the rice market in particular. And as you were hinting, there's been a rise in rice prices [and] also in the context of a general inflation trend.And these rising prices, of course, have undermined the purchasing power of urban households. At the same time, the Nigerian government has been very active in supporting rice farmers, and the central bank has played an important role in making available money to access fertilizer and other inputs, and also to help farmers sell their rice. So, a lot of public support may also have contributed to some extent to inflation trends. And indeed, we see that this policy has had some impacts, some different impacts on different segments of the population. With farmers, at least, in some areas being relatively happy. But of course, urban households [are] suffering from the price increases and general inflation. So, I think it's in this context, also, that we should discuss the role of trade policies. Which again, I think should be a nuanced discussion looking at the different aspects of it.Tobi; So, talking about trade policies and around agricultural development of food policy generally, one thing that usually comes up in my conversation with people, and I've also read or heard so many people argue this point is the issue of domestic producers versus consumers, you know, like some kind of dilemmas that countries face on whose interests you should protect.As you pointed out, through the CBN and various other schemes here in Nigeria, there has been a lot of support for domestic production, in terms of credit facilities, in terms of access to fertilizers, and all that. But sometimes you hear retailers and so many people who are involved in rice particularly will tell you that the market price for rice is double what the price of rice is at the border. So, it is from the border to Nigeria that over half of the price of rice gets added. And now, my thinking is that we really don't see the government do enough domestically in other areas beyond simply supporting cultivation, other supply issues like storage and transportation, which raises domestic prices, which they do not make domestic producers’ price competitive with importers, we don't see a lot of emphasis on this issue.So, I want to ask you, why is that? Is it because these are big problems to solve generally, or because policymakers do not realize that these are problems? Right. So, I guess, ultimately, my point would be that, should domestic consumers pay higher prices to support producers? Because I know that urban consumers particularly are a good source of income for a lot of farmers. So, is this a policy that should be sustained or even actively maintained? Or is there a way to make this a not so difficult adjustment for all involved, including producers and consumers? That's a bit of a long question so don't mind me.Fabien; It's a long question, but it's a complex problem, also. So, I think it's normal to ask it in this way. I think you're talking about a dilemma for policymakers that is seen almost everywhere. Consumers would like to have low food prices, because it's such an important part of their budget, while farmers like to have high prices for agricultural and food products, because it's their revenue, and they need to compensate for their cost. So, there are two things. I think there can be in the short run, perhaps, some imbalance provided that these high prices entice farmers to invest more to increase the supply which should lead then to a decrease in prices which will also be beneficial to consumers. But the problem is not as simple because as you said, between the farmer and the household, there are a lot of steps to aggregate, process, and distribute the food products. And what I am talking [about] here is what we call the value chain. And so, we see that to actually expand the supply of the products, but also to ensure that the quality of these products satisfies the needs and the preferences of the consumer, there is a need for investments in enterprises that will move the products from the farms to the markets, that will process, package and distribute the products. For this to happen, public investment is needed in infrastructure, in roads, in rural areas, in physical markets, in skills, also, to ensure that the sanitary and phytosanitary standards are followed to ensure certain quality norms. And of course, all of these are important for the quality and the safety of the food. And all these different steps in the value chain often depend on multiple different policy areas that need to be coordinated for this value chain to develop. And that's perhaps a bit the technical side of things. In the reality, there are also [the] political and business interests that play a role in the planning and the implementation of these investments. So, it's a complex problem that requires coordination of policies, but also different actors with sometimes diverging business and political interests to work together to develop the whole value chain. And this is not just a problem from Nigeria, because for every country at every stage of development, the context, the technology, trade relations, the market, the preferences of consumers evolve, and it requires adapting the supply chains to these changes. So, in this case, and I can't, you know, talk too much about how well or not Nigerian policies are doing to support the development of these value chains. But yes, perhaps, we could say that a lot of attention has been given to supporting rice farmers, and also in investing in processing units. But it's probably not been enough to develop strong linkages between farmers, processors, and distributors, and in the end with urban markets, for various reasons.And also because of some limitations, a processor needs paddy of a certain quality at a certain time, fulfilling certain criteria to process it efficiently and to break even with its investment cost. A distributor, a trader, also has some constraints. If it's going to distribute local rice to sell it to supermarkets or to street markets, it needs to fulfill certain deals in certain quantities, which he might not be able to do if the linkages higher up in the supply chains are not solid enough. If he does not receive enough rice of a certain quality to fulfil his own contracts. If not, he might actually prefer to import and distribute rice produced in Asia that has a certain quality and for which also the shipments can come quickly and surely. So, we see also how the incentives of all these actors across the value chain play a role. And so, like other sectors, I think the government has a difficult task to do to develop these value chains, and also some choices to be made about to what extent to rely on imported rice versus domestically produced rice.Tobi; Okay, I'll get to my second dilemma in a bit. But to focus more on your last point is, how can countries better increase output? Should they focus more on these linkages in the value chain that you speak of? Because what we see in terms of policy responses is a lot of policy support goes into farming and land cultivation itself. And we have seen the limitations of that in terms of increasing output because, of course, it's a complex problem and there are other areas that are not fulfilling their promise in terms of linkages. On the other hand, policy support can be limited because of the balance of payment crisis that we know that some of these countries like Nigeria suffer. Public resources are not infinite. So, my question essentially is, if the government has to prioritize public support for agricultural development for domestic production, where is it better to focus a lot on resources, knowledge, and support?Fabien; Yes, Tobi. So, I start by saying that there is a consensus among experts and other actors that there's a potential for growth in the rice sector in West Africa, and perhaps even in Nigeria. And this growth can be attained in particular by raising yields and productivity in the production, processing, and distribution of rice. And raising yields is, of course, the key for many agricultural products. And it requires investment in the management of land, in inputs, improved seeds, in particular for rice; and mechanization, skills, and also in processes to reduce post-harvest losses beyond the farm. That's critical for the development of the sector. At the same time, policymakers should not lose sight of broader objectives. In the end, what matters is for farmers and rural populations to have better living conditions to have higher income and access to better public services in rural areas. It also matters to create jobs in and around agri-food value chains. These value chains can generate a lot of jobs in trading, logistics, in processing. And it also matters to ensure the food security of households. So with these broader objectives in mind - and the rice sector is only a small part of this agricultural and food system. It's important also to consider the opportunities for diversification away from staple food commodities, because as the middle class is emerging in Nigeria and other West African countries, as consumers, urban consumers especially gained purchasing power, as we tell also people to eat more fruits and vegetables for health reasons, new economic opportunities appear for farmers and agri-food value chain actors in sectors that are more profitable than rice, probably. So of course, I'm thinking about horticultural products, spices, livestock products, pulses which can provide proteins... and in these sectors, the returns on investment for [not only] farmers, but also for other actors in the value chain can be higher than for rice. So that is something... rice is important, you know, this is what we were saying at the beginning. But the problem of rice has to be seen in the broader context of the agricultural and food systems. And perhaps there is a role to play for trade, for imports, to balance the supply and the consumption in a country like Nigeria... letting farmers but also policymakers invest more resources in these other value chains that are more profitable for all these sectors.Tobi; Going further on that I want to ask you, especially relevant to this conversation, there is also the talk of industrial policy. A lot of domestic agricultural policies take place within the context of domestic industrial policies for countries. I know Nigeria has been on that path for the last six years. My question then would be, what role do exports play in food policy generally? Isn’t the better path to development through exports, and relying maybe slightly more on imports of staple food commodities, such as rice, rather than focus on growing domestically, I mean, rice, what are your thoughts?Fabien; Yes, I think perhaps, just to make sure that we understand each other and that also it's clear to our auditors, there is a rationale for ensuring that a certain part of a population's need for food is supplied by the country's farmers and domestic supply chains. We see also that in less favourable times, like during the food price crisis, the instability of international markets can disrupt domestic markets. But it's only one consideration among others. It also has to be based on the other opportunities for the domestic economy to grow and to lead to shared prosperity. And so, countries have to think also about the way they participate in the international economy, if not the regional economy. And they should not think, at least in our times, of that. So of course, exports are very important to create economic opportunities for domestic producers to generate foreign earnings because any country has to import certain goods that it cannot produce. And within the agricultural and food sectors, that's also the case. I think we see today that whether we are in Europe, in Africa, or any other part of the world, on a daily basis, we consume products produced somewhere else. And by that, I don't mean that this is the most efficient and sustainable way of securing our food security. But I think it's a reality to start with. And so, for Nigerian farmers and the broader Nigerian economy, it's important to be competitive in some sectors that produce exports and generates foreign earnings for tropical products that grow well in Nigeria, perhaps for specialty products, some fruits, and vegetables, cacao, perhaps coffee, medicinal plants, anything, you name it, I think it's important for Nigeria, also to export. And it is also the earnings from the exports that can allow the country to import the staple food commodities that it cannot produce so that policymakers can ensure stable markets and stable access to food for vulnerable households. So, I think, taking into account this reality, that we should think about policy choices, that doesn't mean that we should not change or, you know, actors should not think about the change.Again, there is perhaps a good economic rationale for increasing the production of rice and other staple foods, provided that it makes economic and social sense. And that it is, importantly, I think we haven't mentioned yet, in line with the boundaries of natural resources, with sustainability criteria. Because perhaps you might want to discuss this also, rice is a very demanding crop in terms of water, in terms of land, in terms of nutrients, it also generates greenhouse gases. So, we do also have to take these environmental aspects into consideration when promoting such a crop.Tobi; In the report, which you co-authored, which is kind of like the background to this conversation, generally. I'm going to put up a link - both the long and short version - in the show notes. You used Senegal as an example of how policy on food and in this case, rice, can evolve productively. So, I mean, for the sake of the audience, can you discuss briefly why Senegal stands out? What did it get right?Fabien; Yes, I think that Senegal stands out not only for its policies directed at the rice sector but also in other agricultural and food sectors. In recent years, the Senegalese government made efforts to better regulate agricultural and food markets, and also production. And it has done that, I think, in the context of efforts to modernize the economy while promoting inclusive development. So perhaps I think without going back to the origin of the story, I think, in Senegal, there was a certain potential to improve, to augment rice production and agricultural policies after 2008 promoted this increase in production. But quickly, policymakers were confronted with the fact that it was difficult for farmers to sell rice, to market their rice. And so given this now realized production potential, the government had to think about how to facilitate the access of this rice to the market. And of course, there was then the dilemma, I think, what to do in the situation where the imports are so important to fulfil the needs of the populations. And so, Senegal undertook a process that, for me, is very interesting by bringing together the rice importers and the actors of the domestic value chain to find a way to remedy the problem of difficult sales for locally produced rice. And these actors worked together to promote investments in the local rice value chain, which has produced some positive effects for the farmers and the local value chain actors. But that relied also on a choice, perhaps a difficult choice, to better control imports of rice to create a room in the market for the locally produced price. So currently, the government is trying to make the import licenses for rice based on the amount of locally produced rice that the wholesalers and the importers buy in a way to couple the imports with local purchases, and so, with investments in the domestic rice sector.This, of course, is a complex undertaking. It requires a rigorous approach to calculating the cost and benefits. And it's still uncertain to what extent this initiative will succeed. But we think based on our research that it is a very good experience to learn from and to exchange with other countries in the region that would like to develop the rice sector in a sustainable way, from an economic standpoint in particular. So it is also in the sense that, you know, our study concluded that countries in the ECOWAS area should collaborate more closely with each other to share experiences, to see what works, what doesn't work, for the development of the rice sector. And also, to coordinate their policies, because I come back to the beginning of our conversation, as our analysis showed [and] also as many people know, if one country adopts a certain import policy for rice and if the neighbouring countries have different policies, and the policy of the first one will affect the other ones, because of the transshipment of rice, both formal and informal, that takes place in the region. So, I wouldn't want, not only to emphasize the example of Senegal, but also the interdependencies between rice policies in the region.Tobi; That sort of leads into my next question, because, yeah, you talked about the importance of policy coordination and cooperation, especially in the region, West Africa, a lot in that report. And of course, we know that the African Continental Free Trade Agreement was recently ratified, we know that implementation is not going to be simple. It's a very complex, long process. So, my question is, I know your organization, the European Center for Development, Policy Management [ECDPM], engages a lot of players on policy, what are you guys doing to make sure that there is better policy coordination and cooperation in the area of food policy?Fabien; Yes, it's true, Tobi, that ECDPM is very active as a keen interest in regional economic integration processes, and more generally, regional and continental level cooperation. But I will just say before starting that our ambitions are limited. We are a center based in Europe. And our aim is, I think, primarily to understand economic development dynamics on the African continent, and to facilitate interactions and cooperation between different actors, between European partners, and African actors in particular.It is, you know, with this approach in mind that we've been working on specific sectors that I think are meaningful from a development point of view, I think it's still the case of the rice sector. But of course, rice, like other commodities are traded in a regional context, we could say that there's probably also some rice being traded across borders, beyond the boundaries of ECOWAS. I think there is some trade with Cameroon and with Chad and other countries. So that's also why ultimately, it's also a question that's relevant to the process of the African Continental Free Trade Agreements. But I think also the realities of rice trade, as an example, shows the complexity of economic integration, of designing and implementing common trade policies, and of moving towards better integration of economies in a way that is beneficial for different actors in the value chain. So, I think, already, starting at the level of ECOWAS, it's a relatively old regional organization, which has attained a certain level of maturity. And so, it has a number of sectoral policies that are now relatively well defined, although there's still much to be done in terms of implementation. But I think that's... it's a long-term process, as you said.And I think we should say that the ECOWAS commission is currently leading an initiative to promote production in the trade of rice in the region in a sustainable way. It's actually one of the flagship initiatives of the ECOWAS in the area of agriculture and food security. And so, there are a number of aspects in the rice sector that have to be addressed at the regional level, as we said, there is the transshipment of rice across the region. And in some cases, it leads to reactions, like bans on land imports, which is going to have repercussions for other sectors, including those who don't have much to do with rice. And of course, this can impede the process of regional and continental economic integration. At the same time, rice is a good example...again, there are trade relations within the region that play a role in the development of the domestic rice sector. Locally produced rice is traded within the region. For instance, between Burkina Faso and Mali.Malian consumers appreciate the organoleptic qualities, I mean, the taste of rice grown and parboiled in Burkina Faso, largely by small-scale women enterprises. And despite the fact that Mali is almost self-sufficient for rice, it still imports from Burkina Faso. And this is not just a curiosity, but it's also an opportunity for the development of regional agri-food value chains that can create jobs, generate more income for farmers and ensure food security. And of course, that's also a challenge at the continental level. So these processes at the regional level are one part of the puzzle, but they can play a big role in formulating better trade policies, but also in supporting the work at the national level, as in Senegal, with better regulatory frameworks for the agri-food sectors, and also to share experiences and to coordinate with perhaps the ultimate objective being to go towards like a regional market with some common policies, common norms, that can ensure the good functioning of cross border value chains. So, yes, that's something that we are paying close attention to in partnership with West African think tanks in particular. And I should say that this work of ours that you have mentioned has been done in partnership with IPAR, a think tank based in Senegal and specializing in rural development and food security.Tobi; So, given the situation that countries face today and also particularly in the region as you have said, I know we may not quite be in the same situation as the 2008 crisis, but there are familiar currents of the same problem. My question is you work on policy a lot, so what are some of the automatic policy responses or stabilizers that countries can adopt in the interim that does not make the situation worse, both for consumers and producers, and other stakeholders involved in the food value chain? What policy heuristics or intuitions can policymakers rely on? What tool is available to them to use in a time like this? Fabien; You're right, Tobi, that the COVID crisis has generated a number of disruptions that we should learn from to develop more resilience, agri-food systems in particular, and we've seen in a number of countries disruptions in agricultural and food supply chains, which also meant losses of jobs, livelihoods for certain people. And this also then can really push people back in terms of wellbeing and development. So, the problem of risk management at different levels is probably even more acute after this crisis. But it's good also to see that progress is being made. And again, if I just keep talking about the agricultural and food sector, at the ECOWAS level, there is an interesting initiative to put in place regional food reserves to deal with instability in the agri-food system at the regional level, and especially also to address emergency needs for food assistance for vulnerable populations. So, this regional reserve initiative, which is being piloted by the ECOWAS Commission, was developed as part of the ECOWAS agricultural policy. And it has two components, the physical reserve of staple food commodities that can be quickly mobilized to address the need of vulnerable populations. And there's also a financial reserve to procure food products quickly, either in the regional market or elsewhere on the continent, or even in international markets.To address supply disruptions, this is an important tool that is being developed and that should probably be encouraged in the following years. But that's only one part of the policy instruments to deal with instabilities, with shock. I think what we see in a number of African countries but even well beyond in the global south and also in more advanced countries is the importance of social protection and public services to deal with difficult times, including in the health sector. So why not a specialist of social protection, I think that there's an important role to play for food assistance, but also cash transfers and other forms of social insurance to ensure that vulnerable populations are not left on their own in very difficult situations - when a crisis hits when it disrupts economic activities when people get sick and can't go to work. And of course, one of the basic needs is food. So social protection and food policy should work hand in hand to protect livelihoods and well-being. There are a number of other instruments to deal with risk, to manage risk, I think. We've seen also that part of the problem that you have presented at the beginning is also related to the cost of fertilizer, which has gone up in [the] international market and of course, makes it more difficult for farmers, including in West Africa, to boost production. What I would say just to conclude is that going back to our example of rice, in the end, it's not so much about attaining self-sufficiency, but it's about managing the vulnerabilities that are due to these interdependencies. Whether it's because of the importation of rice, but also the reliance on exports of extractive commodities, as well as movement of populations and with them of Coronaviruses that can destabilize an economy and, of course, health systems.Tobi; You sort of...and I don't know, that has been happening a lot over the course of this conversation, your answer preempted my next question, which is like my final question. So, it is like a big picture question. What is or are the differences between food security and food self-sufficiency? Because this is a debate that has been going on for a while. And the two get mixed up quite a lot. So, you are an agricultural economist, you're an economist... some Agric economists have argued that the policies that countries that have a little more access to ports or the coast, that the policies that they adopt around agriculture should be a little bit different from countries that are landlocked... so many issues and it can be quite confusing. So, I want to hear from you, what is the difference? What are the nuances between food security within the context of a national economy and self-sufficiency?Fabien; Yes, I think it's a difficult question because there are really different views about how things work behind these two notions. But I think we have to go back to what they mean in the first place. I think food security is first in outcome about how well people access food of good quality, in conditions that will ensure good nutrition for children, for women, and for men, and certain stability. So, it's a desirable outcome that depends on a multitude of factors. Now, if we look at self-sufficiency, it's probably seen by policymakers and others as an important means to attain food security. But perhaps it is sometimes confused with an end in itself. And the policy objectives, perhaps, lose sight of the bigger picture and aim to pursue self-sufficiency, even though it's not the best policy that will lead to desirable outcomes.For rice also, you know, we can question, and if we go back to the beginning of our discussion, to what extent it is a good use of public resources to put so much of them into rice production. And if this rice production is not well channeled to the markets or is risky, because of the agro-climatic conditions in some countries, it can actually be a factor of risk, you know, if we cannot rely on the international market as a result.So, we should not confuse means and ends. But I will say that the question is actually more complicated than that because agriculture and the food sector play an important role in economic and rural development. Policymakers also look at these objectives, ensuring that out of agricultural production, rural households can generate some income can lift themselves out of poverty, and then perhaps some of them will move to urban areas, etc. And agriculture is also a sector that plays an important role in the management of natural resources. In taking care of sparsely populated areas, generating economic activities in relation to non-agricultural activities that maintain life and cohesion in rural territories. So, I think we also have to look at this role, and perhaps behind this objective of self-sufficiency, even though perhaps not everything is well thought through, there's also this intent. Now, I think there's perhaps another motivation that we should mention is that agricultural policies aiming at self-sufficiency is also a way for policymakers to gain the support of rural populations - by way of providing subsidies, resources that will improve their popularity for the next election. I think we can say that because it is, you know, it's part of the political game. And it is seen everywhere, I think, not just in developing countries, but also in advanced economies. So, but in the end, I think what's important, especially with all this matter of rice, is to look at the broader agricultural and food systems.And rice self-sufficiency at the national level, you know, if you want my own opinion, based also on my work, it's probably something to be careful with. It might not be the right policy for every country. But I will emphasize the opportunities in the sense that there are other sectors where it's important to invest, you know, where the potential for generating income and job is more important. At the same time, ensuring a good supply of locally produced rice, which can be of better quality than the imported rice, it's important, but it can be done in cooperation with other countries with a greater role for intraregional or even intra African trade. At an even higher level, I think it's important while promoting the production of African rice, where it makes economic sense, you know... it's important also to secure access to the international market. Because we don't know what can happen, especially in the context of climate change, a drought, a shortage of water can decimate the rice production in a certain year, in a certain country. And that country in these circumstances will probably have to rely on the international market to secure the food needs of its population. So, I think we have to keep in mind the multiple factors that contribute to the desired outcome of food security, and also rural development and find the right balance between the different policy objectives. And that's where I think the importance of regional cooperation, but even more so of, you know, inclusive policy dialogue that takes into account different perspectives is critical to achieving this right balance or, at least, a good enough balance between different policy objectives.Tobi; Thank you so much for clarifying that. Bonus question, if I may. We have a bit of a tradition on the show. We call it the one idea. So, what is the one idea that...it may be from your work, it may be from another field which you admire, what's the one idea that excites you so much, you want everybody to know about it, you'd like to see it spread, you'd like to see more people think about it. What is that one idea?Fabien; It's a difficult question Tobi, but I think I like this question. I think if I look forward, I think the role of young farmers and entrepreneurs is very important to solve the questions that we are discussing now. Because these entrepreneurs, farmers, you know, represent the future of agriculture. And I think I very much like how you aim also to target them through this podcast, amongst others. And I think thatI have exciting news to share: You can now read Ideas Untrapped in the new Substack app for iPhone.With the app, you’ll have a dedicated Inbox for my Substack and any others you subscribe to. New posts will never get lost in your email filters, or stuck in spam. Longer posts will never cut-off by your email app. Comments and rich media will all work seamlessly. Overall, it’s a big upgrade to the reading experience.The Substack app is currently available for iOS. If you don’t have an Apple device, you can join the Android waitlist here. you know, we, in general, you know, as policymakers, policy commentators, development partners, have to invest more in the potential of these young people to develop new ideas, new technologies, also new trade linkages to exploit the potential of these agri-food systems.Tobi; Thank you. Thank you so much. My guest today has been Fabien Tondel, the policy officer at the European Centre for Development and Policy Management. It's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you.Fabien; Thank you, Tobi. It was my pleasure as well. This is a public episode. Get access to private episodes at www.ideasuntrapped.com/subscribe

Emergency bonus episode! We promised a deep-dive on whoever Biden chose to replace Breyer, and here it is! Ketanji Brown Jackson is immensely accomplished. Listen as we break down what terrible arguments to expect Republicans to try against her appointment, and what some key rulings in her judicial history tell us about her jurisprudence! Links: DC cir questionnaire, Senate Written questions, Judiciary v. McGahn, Meat Inst. v. US. Dep 't of Agric, AFL-CIO v. Trump, In re Air Crash over S. Indian Ocean, 8 US Code § 1103, Make the Rd. NY v. McAleenan, Campaign for Accountability v. US. Dep 't of Just

Agriculture remains the bedrock of the economy and Nigeria must brace up to industrialized and commercialized agriculture to tackle the menace of unemployment. On the programme today we will look at the kind of investment that is required to address the constraints in the Agric sector in order to create a very functional and dynamic ecosystem

Angry residents at Agric in the Tamale Metropolis lynched one Musah Issifu for shooting into the crowd during a funeral ceremony and injuring six as a result.

This week i speak to a young African women who took a bold step to leave a stable corporate job to pursue her dream in Agribusiness. Her zeal was met with her first big failure in the first farming season where she run at a loss. "I cried" she says. But she bounced back with lessons learnt and renewed vigor to do better. In our conversation, she breaks down the several aspects of Agribusiness and shares the diverse opportunities in the field. It's not just about farming! She also shares how her fear of failure influenced her to choose Agric Science instead of General Science at Secondary School and how that ended up being a blessing in disguise. We talk about how Ghana as a country can do better in the Agric space and the need to reform how Agric is perceived in the country. Ama Afriyie Mensah is my guest this week and i have no doubt you will enjoy this conversation! Social Media Facebook: Witama Agribusiness Limited Instagram: dearyoungafrikan Facebook: Dear Young Afrikan

Discurso: Sec. Itamar Borges (Agric. e Abastecimento) - Retoma SP em Ribeirão Preto - 10.12.2021 by Governo do Estado de São Paulo

Sean Akadiri is the Founder, President and CEO of Agric-Bioformatics INC, a data analytics company in Oklahoma City. Sean is an Ag-Tech entrepreneur passionate about using data analytics to improve the performance and productivity of livestock. Jaden McIntyre and Jaymin Sattler became friends at the young age of 3 and enjoyed drawing cartoons together. At the age of 8 they dreamed of starting a business. Even when they could not be together they would spend hours via zoom dreaming and drawing their ideas. Recently they came up with the idea of drawing caricatures and after hours of practice their dream of starting a business came to fruition at the first annual Norman Children's Business Fair.

The other functions of Biafra Incorporated are introduced by looking at the subsidiaries and what they would be bringing to the table in terms of service to the people.

Discurso: Sec. Itamar Borges (Agric. e Abastecimento) - "Melhor Caminho" S. J. R. Preto - 14.10.2021 by Governo do Estado de São Paulo

Lavender is the common name given to a few species of the Lavandula genus. Each has different uses and dominant compounds. What are the most commonly grown species and how do they differ? How closely are they related? Which has the best flavor for cooking? What are their dominant compounds? How does this affect the aroma of their essential oil? Opening tune: Botanical Berceuse by Carmen Porter (https://carmenporter.com) References: Renata Prusinowska, Krzysztof B. Śmigielski, Composition, biological properties and therapeutic effects of lavender (Lavandula angustifolia L.). A review. http://www.herbapolonica.pl/articles/view/1346 https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/eucalyptol Iman Bajalan., (2015) Chemical composition of lavandin essential oil (Case study: Borujerd from Iran). J. Appl. Sci. & Agric., http://www.aensiweb.com/old/jasa/rjfh/2015/March%202015/12-14.pdf Insawang S, Pripdeevech P, Tanapichatsakul C, Khruengsai S, Monggoot S, Nakham T, Artrod A, D'Souza PE, Panuwet P. (2019) Essential Oil Compositions and Antibacterial and Antioxidant Activities of Five Lavandula stoechas Cultivars Grown in Thailand. Chem Biodivers. doi: 10.1002/cbdv.201900371 M. M. Barazandeh (2002) Essential Oil Composition of Lavandula latifolia Medik from Iran, Journal of Essential Oil Research, doi: https://doi.org/10.1080/10412905.2002.9699784 (10.1080/10412905.2002.9699784) https://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/blog/products/a-helpful-guide-to-buying-your-lavender-essential-oil.html https://www.lavenderwind.com/lavender-essential-oils/

Analysis of national issues in Yoruba by Damilare Afolayan and Gbenga Adesina.

Join Andrew Whitfield Cook as he talks with guest Evan Hayes from Factors Group Australia.  Andrew and Evan discuss the future of microbiota research, including new frontiers in the area of prebiotics and probiotics. Evan Hayes has over 20 years of commercial and leadership experience within the healthcare and biotechnology sectors.  He is particularly specialised in the management, set-up and scaling of start-up organisations where there is a fast-moving environment balancing a need for strategy, scale, business development, overseas expansion, risk and compliance. Evan has been the Asia Pacific Managing Director of Factors Group, Canada's largest natural health company, since April 2018.  Prior to that, he was the director of sourcing and product development at Blackmores where he led the procurement, technical, new product development, and strategic sourcing divisions.   Evan has worked across Europe, US and Australia, and has exceptionally strong knowledge of both FDA and TGA regulations. Evan graduated with a Master of Science (Biotechnology) and Bachelor of Science (Honours).   *****DISCLAIMER: All information provided via The Health Chat is for educational and informational purposes only. The information provided is not, nor is it intended to be, a substitute for independent professional advice.  Please seek the advice of a qualified health care professional in the event something you learn here raises questions or concerns regarding your health. Thank you.*****References of interest related to this podcast:Qixiao Zhai et al. Increased Cadmium Excretion Due to Oral Administration of Lactobacillus plantarum Strains by Regulating Enterohepatic Circulation in Mice J. Agric. Food Chem. 2019, 67, 3956−3965.L Rhamnosus sequester lead and cadmium heavy metals for excretion – Dailsey -  https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/19490976.2018.1526581?needAccess=trueJordan E. Bisanz, Megan K. Enos, Joseph R. Mwanga, John Changalucha, Jeremy P. Burton, Gregory B. Gloor, Gregor Reid. Randomized Open-Label Pilot Study of the Influence of Probiotics and the Gut Microbiome on Toxic MetalLevels in Tanzanian Pregnant Women and School Children. mBio  Oct 2014,  5  (5)  e01580-14 https://mbio.asm.org/content/mbio/5/5/e01580-14.full.pdfL fermentum ME3 up-regulates PON 1 (which hydrolyses organohosphates) - Kullisaar T et al. An antioxidant probiotic reduces postprandial lipemia and oxidative stress. Central European Journal of Biology 6(1):32-40 · February 2010.L fermentum contain complete glutathione system and protects against oxidative stress – Kullisaar L rhamnosus passively binds organophosphate pesticides – M. Trinder et al.Stay informed, follow us on socials and subscribe to our YouTube Channel. Instagram: @obornehealthFacebook: @obornehealthYouTube: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFEYFZfOKEyxU48TeAGD-Kg0mNIyUEoTGRick Hay & Vicky Tsoleridis --DISCLAIMER: All information provided via The Health Chat is for educational and informational purposes only. The information provided is not, nor is it intended to be, a substitute for independent professional advice. Please seek the advice of a qualified health care professional in the event something you learn here raises questions or concerns regarding your health. Oborne Health Supplies does not supply to the general public. Thank you.

This episode is also available as a blog post: https://osazuwaakonedo.live/buhari-sacks-agric-minister-power-over-poor-performance/01/09/2021/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/osazuwaakonedo/support

Sean Akadiri is the Founder, President and CEO of Agric-Bioformatics INC, a data analytics company in Oklahoma City. Sean is an Ag-Tech entrepreneur passionate about using data analytics to improve the performance and productivity of livestock. Jaden McIntyre and Jaymin Sattler became friends at the young age of 3 and enjoyed drawing cartoons together. At the age of 8 they dreamed of starting a business. Even when they could not be together they would spend hours via zoom dreaming and drawing their ideas. Recently they came up with the idea of drawing caricatures and after hours of practice their dream of starting a business came to fruition at the first annual Norman Children's Business Fair.

Technology has made brilliant contributions to human development and the most industrialized nations of the world became great through the application of technology. Nigeria is today challenged to apply technology and innovation to develop its Agric sector to create jobs and save the youth from unemployment, poverty, crime and the dangerous waves of migration to Europe through the Mediterranean Sea and the deserts of North Africa.

Discussion on planting for food and jobs with Charles Nyaaba, Dr. Robert Aidoo, Dr. Eli Gaveh, and Dr. Irene Egyir. "The Minister of Food and Agric is doing fantastic, he is so passionate about the success of the Planting for Food and Jobs, but one advice I will give is, he should open and be willing to listen to farmers"- Dr. Charles Nyaaba

Are you looking to disrupt the agricultural space in Nigeria? Today's guest gave a step by step breakdown of the roles individuals, private corporations and the government can play in Nigeria. Remember to leave a voice message and support this podcast, here is the tip link: https://useshukran.com/cr/intheneighbourhood Email: intheneighbourhoodpodcast@yahoo.com --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/intheneighbourhood/message

This Month on the NESG Radio, we will be exploring the opportunities in Nigeria's Agricultural Value chain as well as highlighting the pros and cons of the Agric Food system and how it affects smallholder farmers and the value chain players in Nigeria

This Month on the NESG Radio, we will be exploring the opportunities in Nigeria's Agricultural Value chain as well as highlighting the pros and cons of the Agric Food system and how it affects smallholder farmers and the value chain players in Nigeria

POLICY SEMINAR UNFSS Science Days Side Event: Reforming Agricultural Policies to Support Food Systems Transformation Co-organized by IFPRI, Indian Council for International Economic Research (ICRIER) and Academy of Global Food Economics and Policy, China Agricultural University JUL 7, 2021 - 09:30 AM TO 11:00 AM EDT Agriculture receives around US$600 billion per year worldwide in government support, giving rise to questions about how such support could be restructured to meet important goals of food systems transformation, such as emission reduction and climate resilience, improved food and nutritional security, enhanced poverty reduction and equity. This UNFSS Science Days side event, organized by the International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI), Indian Council for International Economic Research (ICRIER), and Academy of Global Food Economics and Policy, China Agricultural University, will examine the latest trends in agricultural support policies and examine this topic of how such support could be “repurposed” to support food systems transformation. Opening remarks: Johan Swinnen, Director General, IFPRI Key Findings of 2021 Agricultural Policy Monitoring and Evaluation Report Jonathan Brooks, Head of Agricultural and Resource Policies Division, Trade and Agriculture Directorate, OECD Overview of research on reformulating agricultural policies Rob Vos, Director of Markets, Trade and Institutions Division, IFPRI Discussants: Ashok Gulati, Infosys Chair Professor for Agriculture, Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations (ICRIER) Lee Ann Jackson, Head of Division, Agro-food Trade and Markets, OECD Marie Ruel, Director, Poverty, Health, and Nutrition Division, IFPRI Closing Remarks: Shenggen Fan, Chair professor, College of Economics Management & Dean of the Academy of Global Food Economics and Policy, China Agricultural University, Beijing; and CGIAR System Board Member Moderator: Charlotte Hebebrand, Director of Communications and Public Affairs, IFPRI Links: IFPRI And UN Food Systems Summit 2021: https://www.ifpri.org/ifpri-unfss-2021 UNFSS Science Days Side Events: https://www.ifpri.org/unfss/2021/science-day-side-events Indian Council For International Economic Research (ICRIER): http://icrier.org/ China Agricultural University: https://en.cau.edu.cn/ UNFSS Summit Dialogues: https://summitdialogues.org/dialogue/29392/ More on the seminar: https://www.ifpri.org/event/unfss-science-days-side-event-reforming-agricultural-policies-support-food-systems Subscribe IFPRI Insights newsletter and event annoucements at www.ifpri.org/content/newsletter-subscription

Episode 26: From Agric-Culture to Agric-Business || The Case for an African Youth (Part 2) Host: Afolabi Imoukhuede Guest: Orioye Benedict Agric-Biz: The Oxygen for African Economies This is the continuation of last week's episode wherein Benedict Gbayisemore Orioye, an award-winning fisherman of the Ilaje community in Ondo State talks about how he transitioned from practicing the Culture of Agriculture to the Business of Agriculture. On this episode, he shares more about his company, First Moreys Food Venture; the struggles, the breakthrough and the achievements so far. This is a true-life story of Grass to Grace! Don't forget to Share, like, comment, and subscribe. Email us at podcast@neveranafterthought.com Visit www.neveranafterthought.com to order or visit amazon.com to get the kindle version. Kindly follow us on all our social media platforms https://linktr.ee/NAAfterthought

​Episode 25: From Agric-Culture to Agric-Business: The Case for an African Youth Host: Afolabi Imoukhuede Guest: Orioye Benedict Agric-Biz: The Oxygen for African Economies. All around us in Africa is arable land, yet there is wanton poverty, hunger and malnutrition in the midst of significant food waste and farmer penury. Why is this so? On this episode, AI is joined with Benedict Gbayisemore Orioye, an award-winning fisherman of the Ilaje community in Ondo State as they discuss: “From Agric-Culture to Agric-Business, the case of an African Youth.” This is a true-life story of Grass to Grace! Don't forget to Share, like, comment, and subscribe. Email us at podcast@neveranafterthought.com Visit www.neveranafterthought.com to order or visit amazon.com to get the kindle version. Kindly follow us on all our social media platforms https://linktr.ee/NAAfterthought

Link to bioRxiv paper: http://biorxiv.org/cgi/content/short/2020.11.14.363911v1?rss=1 Authors: Li, J., Huang, Q. Abstract: Oat protein isolate (OPI) is among the plant proteins with valuable functionalities (e.g. emulsification) during daily supplement intake. Understanding their structures helps to manipulate oat proteins at small scale, which enables the appropriate deployment of their functions. Based upon such understanding, the molecular structure of oat protein isolate (OPI) in aqueous medium was investigated by synchrotron small angle X ray scattering (SAXS), and this study allows a structural reconstitution of OPI in aqueous medium. Besides, this SAXS study is complimentary to the previous study (Liu et al. J. Agric. Food Chem. 2009, 57, 4552 to 4558). From form factor fitting, we confirmed that OPI aqueous solutions at low concentrations (0.3~2 mg/mL) obtained a disk conformation (41.4*41.4*10.2 A3). Once protein concentration increased to 5 mg/mL and 10 mg/mL, the individual disk proteins formed large dimensional rod like aggregates, which was evidenced by the analyses of effective structure factor and pair distribution function (PDF). Based on the PDF results, the ab initio models of OPI particles at low concentrations (0.3 mg/mL to 2.0 mg/mL) were restored by using GASBOR algorithm. Finally, we found that weak attraction between OPI particles occurred, which was verified by second virial coefficient and pair potential. Copy rights belong to original authors. Visit the link for more info

This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Eversys - manufacturers of SUPER traditional espresso machines that embrace new technology, design aesthetics, and a guaranteed return on investment at a time when purchase decisions will be measured, and safety is paramount.To find out more about the range of Eversys machines available, head to http://bit.ly/MIF_eversysMAP IT FORWARD Assertiveness training www.mapitforward.org/webinarsMAP IT FORWARD Online Group Mastermind Coaching available in Coffee Roasting and Leadership/Business Development at www.mapitforward.org/groupcoaching.Visit our online merch store at www.mapitforward.org/merchThis podcast is available on Youtube, Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Google Play, and most other podcasting platforms on Apple and Android devices.For more details go to www.mapitforward.org/podcasts and follow us on social media @imapitforward.

Read all Techpoint articles referenced on today's episode here. https://techpoint.africa/topics/techpoint-africa-podcast-56/ Continue the conversation on Community. https://community.techpoint.africa/ Email us your feedback at podcast@techpoint.africa. Listen every Friday at 8 AM (WAT). You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or anywhere else you get your podcasts. Visit www.techpoint.africa for more stories.

Episode 332 It is that time again where we return to Goatswood university and back to the lives of the Students. Join Psychedelic Steve, Valerie and … an Agric as they try and work out what is going on now on Goatswood campus. It seems like it probably isn’t the dangerous bush again, but it […]

Nasirudeen Afolabi is a student Entrepreneur from the University of Ibadan , studying Agric extension and Rural development ( 400L ). He is a stylist and a fashion designer , hustling and making his money positively on campus. listen to his inspiring story... produced by : oladapo okunubi enjoy

My conversation with Akin Oyebode is now up. Akin has been the model public servant in most young business and progressive circles that I am aware of in the last decade or more. He’s also had a previous successful career in the financial industry and has been brilliantly recalibrating to what I think our expectations should be about the public sector. We delve into his current job, and how that shapes his outlook on public service. We also talked about several important reforms he wants to help jumpstart in Ekiti State. Akin is a practising pragmatist with the values of a progressive idealist. You can listen or download, for much more interesting insights (you can also listen on Stitcher here)TranscriptTobi: This is Ideas Untrapped, and I am here with Akin Oyebode. Akin is an economist and currently, he is the special adviser to the Ekiti State Government on investment, trade and innovation. Welcome Akin.Akin: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.Tobi: You came from the private sector, what are the cultural differences between public service and the private sector? There was this analogy I got from Arnold Kling where he said: public institutions usually have a culture of 'no', where they are big enough and it's very easy to say no and changes only happen at the margins, unlike private institutions or startups where they start from 'yes' and they can really really drive change fast. What has your experience been in that regard?Akin: I think you have to understand that (some) public service and private sector have two fairly distinct outcomes and Taleb's skin in the game theory, for me, is what holds very strongly here. In the private sector, you could argue that as an employee sometimes you're a shareholder, sometimes your reward is directly tied to the performance of the firm. So in a way you have skin in the game. You have some skin in the game. Founders of businesses which tend obviously more along the startup space, those guys have full skin in the game. Their lives are almost tied... they're like Siamese twins to the company. So if you look at the founders of, say, PayStack or Flutterwave; these guys have left the comfort of their day jobs to go and set up businesses. They're taking the biggest bets of their lives on these businesses. It's like you going to a surgeon, you're going to choose the best surgeon possible because if he makes a mistake, you're dead. Public service tends to be fairly different in the sense that, first: the reward structure is more annuity-based. So you are rewarded for not making mistakes. The fewer mistakes you make the better. So, even if you don't change anything, as long as you've not significantly damaged anything - you haven't stolen money - you're likely to have a 30-40-year career. So the incentives are not aligned towards innovation, that's the first thing. And that tends to make people a lot more cautious. Also because they're not significantly affected by the outcomes, that also creates a moral concern for me.If you think about healthcare, if you think about education, you could argue that my children will go to fairly decent schools regardless of the quality of education overall in the country. And so because of those misalignments in incentives and outcomes, you tend to find that people will play it safe because they themselves are not significantly invested in those outcomes. If you take my current role, I've gone to Ekiti State to support...Clears throatAkin: The development work going on there, but you can argue that "look, many of the things that I will be involved in, I might not necessarily be the beneficiary or it might not impact me directly." So if you sign off on a firm building a rice mill in a certain community, you don't live in that community, you don't deal with the environmental challenges that come with that decision, so you are not as invested in the outcomes as the people who live in those communities. But I think some of the things that can change is, for example, aligning incentives properly, rewarding people for taking risk (some level of risk). There are areas where I think that risk-taking is not important - things that have to do with lives, things like aviation. I will not advocate for cutting-edge technology or improvements in aviation if we cannot be sure, 100 percent, that it improves the safety outcomes. Things like healthcare - approving drugs, for example. You want to test and test and test and be sure there are no adverse effects. The food and drugs department, for example - NAFDAC - is not the place where people will have lots of crazy ideas. But improving transport, improving tourism, improving production; I think government has to be a lot more, I'll say, open to fresh ideas. And I think it's happening across the country in pockets where you're now starting to see younger people, people with private sector experience going into government and hopefully, we're a critical mass and we're able to influence significant changes in governance.But I agree, 100 percent, with that philosophy that improvement in government will not be radical for the foreseeable future and it tends to happen at the margins because it's also less disruptive...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: It's easy for the mainstream public service to say "hey, this is how we do things." It's something that you hear in government and I've worked for two governments now so it's not an Ekiti problem. I'll ask someone: why do we do this this way? Why do we charge these 5 levies? And the person says "oh, but this is how it was always charged" and then when you go and you dig deeper, you find that it was just one man who just sat down one day and said "oh, charge this amount as a levy for trying to get a C of O. It's not because there was some science to it, it's not because it was researched or evidence-based, it was just the guy's belief at the time. And so it tells you that it's almost two things: on one side, one person can actually make a significant change; but when that person does, to unwind some of the negative outcomes of those kinds of changes take forever to happen. So you almost must be in the stubborn minority. You must be that guy who feels like "I can make things happen" and then start to build a critical mass of those people and eventually I think we'll see government become a bit more innovative. But it's not going to be NASA...Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: It's not going to be Google, it's still government but you'll see some changes happen.Tobi: It's interesting you mentioned incentives. Do you think that public servants are properly rewarded, in terms of pay?Akin: You know that's a question where I have skin in the game.LaughsAkin: I honestly don't feel that...there are two issues here. One is that I don't think public servants are well-paid, but the second issues that I also don't think that the public service is productive enough today to ask for significant...Tobi: Raise Akin: Raise in salaries. I'll tell you point-blank as a public servant today, my net pay will be about for hundred thousand naira a month and I'm a fairly senior, you might say, public servant. At four hundred thousand naira a month, that's effectively five million naira a year, you're not going to attract significant talent into the place unless they are people that, one: have earned income previously and have savings they can depend on or in some cases, they are people where people both partners earn, so where maybe you're lucky to have a wife who significantly outearns you and can ensure that the quality of life doesn't diminish, significantly, by joining government. Or if you think you have, maybe, bigger ambitions in public service that you're happy to take a pay cut to go and work in government. But it’s very difficult to attract people to serve government and one of the ways that national and sub-national government are now trying to, sort of, workaround that is to get development finance institutions or development partners to offset some of the salary differences. But to what extent can you do that, for how many people, how scalable is it? And then, where does the conflict of interest come in, where some people might say "why should a foreign agency pay the salaries of people working in public service?" But today, that's the only way you can do it unless the salary structure starts to change. But to even show that we need to earn more, I believe that we need to be a lot more productive, both at the national and sub-national government. One person can actually make a significant change; but when that person does, to unwind some of the negative outcomes of those kinds of changes take forever to happen. -AOTobi: Yeah, I think you're talking about talent, so the two issues sort of tie together in a way. That is, talent and the knowledge problem, and incentives in the public sector. Now if you talk about safety industries, maybe NAFDAC, aviation and all that - if I understand you correctly, you advocated for some kind of precautionary principle.Akin: Absolutely.Tobi: But, what about the knowledge problem? Okay, let's take NAFDAC. We know that the knowledge about drug discovery relies with the private sector.Akin: Absolutely.Tobi: Now, if you don't have enough talent, at say, NAFDAC, how then can they make the right decisions even about regulating drugs. So how should the government try to solve that talent challenge?Akin: I think Singapore and China are two good examples, where you have to take a 20-30-year view of building a pipeline and you have to send people to the best institutions possible, you have to give them a chance to cut their teeth in the private sector, understand how private enterprise works, what drives innovation (etc) and then bring those people back into public service. It has to be very deliberate. I used to work in banking and I used to joke with friends that every time I sat with a CBN examiner, I said to myself that I understand the financial products a lot better than you do and so how are you even going to regulate me properly? And those are the issues that you face in regulatory agencies today where the knowledge is limited not because of any malicious intent, but it's really just because the people don't know better. So I think that first, Nigeria must be very deliberate about how do we send people to acquire knowledge? How do we help them gain experience and how do we ensure that they come back and feed all of those things into public service? We used to do it in the past, we had a lot of talent development programs and I remember...in fact I remember I was reading a tweet by...I think it was Tolu Ogunlesi who was tweeting something about our first engineering PhD. The guy who went to MIT, I forget his name now, who came back to Nigeria and the government just didn't know what to do with him and the guy ended up going to work for Shell, I think, or something. That guy in China will be sitting at a senior level, a senior decision-making level within 20 years of graduating from that PhD program. You know the thing about what the Chinese did - not only did they encourage people to go to the west to learn, when they came back they also put them in critical functions. Whether it was a research function, whether it was the PBOC (The People's Bank of China), those guys were now the guys today...some of those guys are the guys taking decisions for the country. Singapore, for example, will say to you: you're a great talent, go and study elsewhere, go and do this, but when you come back we're going to pay you top dollar because you're the best of the best. I think that's where we have to get to - a situation where we are taking our top talent, we're exposing them to private-sector institutions both locally and internationally. But there's a clear plan about how to feed them back into the public service. I think that's the part we've missed out, where, now, the public service is seen as a place to fit our cousins who don't have jobs. Honestly, I can openly tell you this that in my state, for example, we're doing a recruitment exercise for teachers and the government has been very clear that if you don't make a certain mark you can't qualify. But people in my community have come to me to say "oh, but you should be able to help this guy now, he scored 30. Let's say the pass mark is 40, you know... it's not too far off." And I'm like, but these are the guys want to... you want these guys...Tobi: To educate your kids.Akin: To educate your kids. Don't you understand that if I hire a substandard teacher, your kids are going to get substandard education and you are caught in a poverty trap? So you who should have more skin in the game (you) are actually the one coming to me to say come and break the rules for us. It's not in your interest and I think we have to understand that public service is for the best people. Our best guys must go into public service. It's like the universities; back in the day, if you made a first [class] or you made a very good 2:1, you were locked in to go back into the academia. Today, we're almost saying that "oh, if you can't get into Shell, then come and teach engineering" whereas thirty years ago, Shell and the engineering faculty were competing for talent. So I think that we have to be deliberate about that. Our best people must be shown a path into public service.Tobi: Okay. So now let's talk about you on the job. Someone like me writing about public policy can say "oh, you have to do XYZ" but I mean someone like you on the job has to deal with practical issues. So (now) which would a public servant prioritise between, say, fixing fundamental issues and binding constraints? I'll give you an example - you used to write a blog back in the day "t'oluwa ni ile", I don't know why you stopped...Akin: That was Feyi. That was Feyi's blog I think I only guest-posted for him.Tobi: Oh, interesting... So now, someone like me can say that "oh, for us to have some kind of change in that area you have to repeal the land use act". Whereas in Ekiti State, it could be a binding constraint that can be removed by simply suspending aspects of it to achieve what you want to do without really touching the law. So how does it work, really?Our best people must be shown a path into public service. - AOAkin: I think land administration, for me, is a great way to discuss this problem. I think sometimes... in fact let's not use [the] Land Use Act. Let's use taxes. Tobi: Yeah.Akin: We always say States can't compete because corporate taxes are the exclusive preserve of the Federal Government but I think that States can compete even on payroll taxes. So if I say today that we want to be a knowledge destination as Ekiti - as Ekiti State we should be able to say that if you come to work in the knowledge economy whether as lecturer, as a researcher, as an innovator, whatever it is; that you should only pay 2.5 percent payroll taxes, as against, maybe, 28 percent which is where your salary band sits. It automatically means that if you leave Lagos today and you move to Ekiti, you're 20 percent up and that's an incentive to drive people there. And I think that's something that States can do, and say "look, you know what? We want to own the automobile sector, if you come and set up shop here, you're going to pay 5 percent taxes regardless of your income band." And so people then say: hey guys, you know what? If we move this factory to Ekiti, you might not have ShopRite there today, you might not have iMax but you're earning 15 percent more. Yes or no?Tobi: Yeah.Akin: That takes you... that starts to give people a reason to move outside of Lagos or Port-Harcourt or wherever. So I think that there are things that the sub-nationals can do to compete a lot better. But to your point around what do you deal with? You deal with the fundamentals. I always say that as a government or as a public servant, you must ensure that you are there to support generational change. And, again, I always go back to places like China. If you think of a guy like Zhao who was Premier, he's been airbrushed out of Chinese history today but a lot of the reforms that he started are the reforms that China still depend on thirty years later for growth. Even though he died... you could say he died unheralded etc, the point is that if you look at China critically, anything that you say Deng Xiaoping did, they did it together, for the most part. But you must be strong in your conviction that you're doing what is right and you're doing what is right for the long term. So, but, it comes at a cost. And I'll give you a good example. In my principal's first term in office, he instituted an assessment of teachers that was deemed unpopular and politically naive and ask I people: was it the right thing to do to ensure that you had the best quality teachers in place? It's never a bad policy. You can't say "oh, well, you guys did something unpopular, teachers won't vote for you." You've got to ask yourself: you will not be in government forever, how do you ensure that you build things that can outlive you, that can outlast you? It's very important and it's always a...it's a problem, it's a dilemma because you also can say "if you don't hold political power, then how do you influence people?" And I think for me, it's in playing on the margins and saying "look, how far can I push the envelope?" And "is this thing an extensional issue?" I consider education an existential issue. And so, I would say that "look, today, States should not be devoting less than, at least, 15 percent of the budget, minimum, to education." You know 26 percent might be impractical today because you also have issues with infrastructure, security etc. But I will say, "look, no matter what, at least 15 percent of your budget should go towards education regardless of what happens" and you must say "look, what are the fundamental problems I'm solving?" Quality of the curriculum, quality of teachers, learning environment, what can I do to improve pedagogy? (etc) Those are existential problems. Land use, for example, is that an existential problem? In my opinion, no.I can still work around that today. There are still things that within the Governor's powers he can do to improve land rights in the state. I can digitise my land registry. I can make it easier to get a certificate of occupancy. I can make it easier to transfer title. Those are things that as a state government you can do. For us, for example, with things like our Doing Business reforms, some [one] of the things that we are going to recommend is: can there be multiple authorities to sign some of these certificates, these documents or must it be solely vested in the governor? Those are conversations that you can have at [the] sub-national level. So I won't say that - look, repealing the land use act today, is it the easiest thing to do? No. But there are other things that you can do, to your point, to work around some of the challenges that you face there. So, yes, there are some fundamental problems that you have to deal with, to answer you, and those must be existential ones because you have limited gunpowder in government. You can't waste that gunpowder on something that is not supercritical. So you've got to find, what are the one or two existential issues? On these issues, I'm ready to put my political legacy on the line. On the rest of the issues, we'll work around them (as) on a case-by-case basis.Tobi: Okay, so let's talk about investments. Which obviously you need to make some of these things happen. And we know that even the country as a whole faces some serious balance of payment crisis. So, now, what (again) in your own experience and relying on best practices, what are the cheapest source of driving Investments really really fast? Some people talk about the diaspora, for example - I think currently the World Bank says remittances is about $22billion even though the government disputes that...LaughsI always say that as a government or as a public servant, you must ensure that you are there to support generational change. - AOTobi: But you'll also see that a lot of those remittances go to welfare for families, for individual households. So how much of an investment source can they really be? What is the template, what is the practice really, of really really driving investment?Akin: Honestly my personal view, is that diaspora flows for our economy help to stimulate consumption. I think to your point, it's a social welfare program. People are trying to supplement low-income relatives, primarily.Anecdotal information suggests that maybe 10-15 percent of those flows actually go into investments, most of that also into real estate...primarily, real estate investments. I think that where we sometimes need to look at better are domestic investment opportunities. And I think that subnational sometimes focus a lot more on foreign investments, sometimes to the detriment of existing capital locked in the country. There's a lot of capital locked here that I think we can unlock. I mean, one of the things that people talk about, for example, is "how do we divert pension funds into infrastructure projects?" I always say that it's a very tricky conversation to have because a lot of those pension funds are already invested in things like treasury bills...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: Which is even going to the government, but, for me, it's not even how do you divert Pension Funds into government-driven investments? It's how do you use government to guarantee some private investments? So, a good example for me is, instead of saying I want to raise a bond as Ekiti State Government to build a power plant, why can't I have a private power plant, go and raise that capital from the capital market knowing that Ekiti State provides a backstop guarantee of some sort that, at the very least, you're going to earn a minimum revenue...so having a minimum revenue guarantee of some sort that allows that deal to become bankable.So let's say Tobi & Co. goes to build a road and knows that I can toll that road because the regulatory environment allows me to do that in Ekiti. And the state government then says "well, if you don't make your two million naira a day on the road, I'm happy to supplement that to ensure that that minimum revenue is achieved. Those are the ways for us to make projects more bankable. You're not really lending to the government, you're lending to private enterprises who have a backstop guarantee of some sort from the government. Sovereign risk is a big deal, so I'm keen to say let's deal with people who are already doing business in Nigeria. People who are already doing business here are important... are more important than, I'll say, getting fresh investors from outside the country. Because these are guys who already banked... they back Nigeria. They're like, okay, we're happy to do business here, we understand the country risk, we understand the business environment. It's a lot easier to get those guys through the line. It's a lot easier to say to a Promasidor, for example, come and take over our diary farm in Ikun than to say to someone who has never done business in Nigeria: come and do business in Ekiti. It's a lot easier to talk to a Dangote, a Stallion to say, come and set up rice mills in Ekiti than someone who has never done business in Nigeria. So I think you have to get a fair mix of both and also to ensure that when you bring in investors, you have the aftercare service that ensures that the guys get exactly what they want out of the state [be]cause there is herd mentality around investment. Capital flows to where returns are optimised.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And the best way to demonstrate optimisation of returns is the capital that has already come in here - what has it gotten? Which is why I always say to people that regardless of whatever issues you say MTN has in Nigeria, MTN is a good example of optimising capital and it brought... if you see the people who came on the coattails of MTN, you know, Mr Price, ShopRite, all these guys, they came to Nigeria...even if it's the fear of missing out that brings you in, the people will come. It's like a restaurant, it doesn't serve the best food but if I hire 50 people to stand outside pretending they are on a queue, you're more likely to stop there to eat because you must think there's something good about this food that is driving these long queues. So restaurants have been known to artificially increase the size of the queues just to get people like you and I to come and join, and when you get in there, you find out that the food is not great you're already... you're sucked in anyway. So I think for me, first is, optimise domestic capital flows. There's a lot of capital that sits in this country today or even sits outside the country owned by Nigerians that we have to bring back. It's only when domestic flows invest in the productive sector in the country that you start to find that foreign capital will come in. We have to use the domestic capital to demonstrate the viability of investing in Nigeria. So I always say that we'll mix both. We'll go offshore looking for capital but we will also call local capital in. And part of what we have been doing in Ekiti is even meeting with people who currently do business in Nigeria to say to them "this is a great place for you to do business and this is why?"We must ensure price stability" which then ensures that people can save a lot more of their income… - AOTobi: Okay. Okay. So my bit of pushback against that is that - okay, now, say you're trying to industrialize, and you favour domestic investment, what about technology and knowledge transfer?Akin: That's a great question, honestly. You know, the truth is: it's not going to be one or the other. And I think that it's finding the balance. Because knowledge transfer is not geography-based, right? There is nothing that says that the knowledge does not exist in businesses today in the country. I mean, when I talk to some of the BPO players (the guys who run Business Processing Outsourcing businesses in Nigeria), some of the guys are doing transformative work that I won't have believed existed in this country. These are things that I think happen in Vietnam, in Bangladesh, in Mauritius, but it actually exists in Nigeria. The biggest constraints they have: quality broadband; talent. Now, those are constraints that we can take away. If as a state we say to Main One, pay a hundred and thirty-five naira per metre to lay fibre to Ekiti, it becomes a lot cheaper to get the infrastructure to a place like Ekiti. If we say we are happy to offset the cost of training people as long as you, as the BPO company, agrees that you take on these people when they complete the program satisfactorily, that's a cost that we take away for you. Everybody is happy, The State is happy, the people are unemployed; Nigeria is attracting a lot more investment in that space. I think that there are pockets of excellence where you can say (look) knowledge transfer is even easier to achieve with local capital. So there's nothing that says that (no) because the capital is local you can't import the knowledge, there's nothing that says you cannot import the technology but I'm just saying that you have to recognise that if you do not have local skin in the game...Dangote refinery is a good example, will you tell me that that project doesn't come with knowledge or technology transfer? It does. But whose capital is it?Tobi: It's his.Akin: It's local capital.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And that's the thing for me that if your local capital is not taking risk in your country, it's very difficult to attract foreign capital. That holds true for most places. If you take a country like - again, I'm sorry I always go back to China. But if you take a place like China, you find that a lot of the capital that was unlocked was domestic capital. Look at South Africa - one of the reasons why the South African government or [the] South African economy can sustain systemic shocks is that there is already significant domestic capital mobilized. That any systemic shocks you find can be buffered by local capital and that's where, for me, if you ask me and I know we've not gotten into a macro conversation.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: But if you ask me, the Central Bank's single objective today, has to be price stability. Because, what you find is that people are not able to save, household savings is non-existent.Tobi: Wiped off.Akin: Is wiped off. Because people are spending 65-70 percent of their incomes on food. So when you spend 95 percent of your income on existential issues: food, shelter, clothing; there's nothing to save. If you cannot mobilize domestic savings, then where is the shocks [buffer] against systemic issues with foreign investment? Because whether you like it or not your ability to attract foreign investment is not dependent on you, there are external shocks that affect that, right?Tobi: Yeah. Akin: If The Fed raises rates by a hundred basis points it affects how much capital comes into Nigeria.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: So we must be saying, "look, we must ensure price stability" which then ensures that people can save a lot more of their income and then that, at least, it helps to stimulate a domestic investment environment.Tobi: From what you're saying, it seems there is a lot of...and I've been seeing that a lot with a lot of development work...there's a lot of planning. If your economy is not developed, there's a lot of planning to actually jump-starting an economy. Now, what does that do to your free market sentiments? Akin: You know, I'm a Deng apostle to a large extent...Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: I always say that the people I follow, the sentiments I espouse, I treat them like a Christmas hamper. I take the things I want out of it...Tobi: Okay.Akin: The ones I don't need I keep aside. So when sometimes I tell people that: look, I love Deng; they tell me: but this guy sanctioned the death of students...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And I say look, Deng human rights, er...Tobi: Record.Akin: Record, I don't need. But his liberal views on opening the Chinese economy, I want to take that. I try to say that I'm ideologically fluid. There are parts of a capitalist market that I like, there are parts of a social welfarist market that I like. I feel that, yes, the poorest people need to be supported, [the] poor and vulnerable people need to be supported. I feel that workers need to be protected, but I also feel that capital needs to get significant returns to continue to invest. I don't hold any firm views. I think that the plans for a country will always be dependent on the time and the situation that the country finds itself. For example, I'm a card-carrying member of the All Progressives Congress (APC), people say there are no ideologies in Nigeria, I disagree. APC is a left of centre party...Tobi: Really?Akin: Yes. It's a social welfarist party and that's why if you think about things like the social investment program, this is the only time you have seen in Nigeria where there's been a very ambitious, you might say, overambitious social investment program targeted at various groups of people including people who are vulnerable and that's a sign of an ideology. It's the one part of the APC manifesto I can say, 100 percent, has been implemented. But you know why it's important to do that today is that there's an existential problem in the country. If people cannot eat, you can't educate them. So when we say there is a homegrown school feeding program, it's not a waste of money. Nutrition is a big part of education; because if the kids do not eat properly, there's nothing...they can't learn nothing. Even getting kids to school...even if you say they're sending their children to school to only go and eat, at least the kids are going to school. So having something like a homegrown school feeding program, for example, is, for me, something that I will... forget the economic impact of supporting farmers and cooks and etcetera, that's even like a spin-off. The real impact is getting kids to school. And so for me, the next level of this conversation is how do we now measure the impact? How do we measure enrollments rate? In my state, for example, I think we can show you some numbers of how enrollment has gone up in schools since that program started, of how many children are benefitting from those kinds of meals. Now, that, for me, is a social welfare program that is very important. But on the second part of it - I will also say - you have to free up things like capital controls. You have to allow people bring in and export their capital as they wish... even with this capital restrictions, people will still bring money into Nigeria. So, for me, you have to take what works from different ideologies. Sometimes you're going to take some socialist principles, sometimes you're going to take some capitalist principles, and we have seen markets straddle the contradictions quite well. They will say oh, it's market socialism. People have started to mix... the closer you are to the centre now the more populist you tend to be. So I don't think that the world, especially the developing markets, will benefit from very rigid ideologies. I think that we've gone beyond that. The iron curtain is fallen now since when? Glasnost and Perestroika are long gone. So even the people who were ideologically pure have moved towards the centre...bar maybe a place like Cuba, I don't think that you will see people hold very rigid views on ideology anymore. Even the United States has some socialist protectionist ideologies. Donald Trump is a... you could argue is a republican president, right?Tobi: Yeah.Akin: But he is probably the biggest critic of globalisation today. So you find that the UK is going through a painful Brexit process. That's an anti-globalisation...Tobi: Move.Akin: Move, right? Again, pushed by whom? By a conservative party. I have friends who are die-hard conservatives. They don't speak about Brexit. They stay silent on it. But I remind them from time to time that: your party which is a conservative party is the one that took the Union to a referendum. Let's not forget that. That's not something... it's almost ...you should expect the reverse.Tobi: Not Corbyn. Not Labour.Akin: You should expect Labour to actually be the ones pushing this kind of agenda, so it tells you that there are no rigid views, there are no hard-coded views anymore in the world.Tobi: Let me ask you a bit of a comical question on that note. Akin: Uh uh.Tobi: Where does the border closure fit in the APC ideology?Akin: You know the thing about this podcast is that they ask career-limiting questions...LaughsAkin: But I'm happy to answer that. Honestly, there are some things that are existential and on the border closure people have asked me on social media for my views and I've said: "look, we have to be a bit more nuanced about this conversation." I don't think that we've optimised the decision process properly. I think the biggest thing that we could have done differently is to allow the people best suited to lead the conversation lead the conversation. Personal opinion: I don't think that customs should be leading a conversation about trade. There's a reason why we have a trade office, there's a reason why we have a Ministry of Trade and Investment. That ministry should be front and centre of the conversation and should draw in the different parties on a need-to-know or a need-to-be-there basis. So I think in terms of coordination, we have led the conversation from a customs perspective which is not where we should lead the conversation from, and that for me is the biggest issue. But should our neighbours play by the rules? Yes, they should. Is trans-shipment a major issue? Yes, it is. Is the Beninois economy designed to exploit Nigeria? Yes, it is. That is the reality.Tobi: How is that? Please explain.Akin: If you sit down and you create an economy and I'll send you some work that shows that for the last 30, 40 years, these guys have built an industry basically to rebag and repackage products against the ECOWAS protocols into Nigeria. It's a small economy, we laugh about it and say it's Nigeria's 37th state but if you think about [it]...this is not the first time we're closing borders [and] the thing is that we've repeated this thing so many times and I'm worried that we're still not learning that these are symptomatic issues and we are not dealing with the root cause. For me, it is how do we introduce technology into surveillance, into border surveillance. These have security implications. Forget rice. Drugs come in through these borders, guns come in through these borders. There are far more serious existential issues that we need to solve for. How do we do the surveillance? How do we ensure that the cultural trade flows are not shut? Remember there are families on both sides of the divide - there are Yorubas across both sides of the border - how do we ensure that these traditional trade corridors are not shut but (we) also ensured that the territorial integrity of the country is protected? So I don't think that it's a one-size-fits-all discussion. I think that it's a more nuanced conversation. Is the border closure the right thing to do? I don't know. I think history will judge but I definitely think that the Beninois government needed this kick up the backside. Now, should it start from customs? No. I think we should sit down and say what is our broader trade position and what position do we want these guys to take on board? I think we should be able to say, "look, how do we collaborate with you?" Can we, for example, because of the efficiency issues with our ports, can we have a situation where goods come in through the Beninois ports, they are processed through there and they earn a fee for that? And then those goods come into Nigeria. That is a way to think about it. Even from a Nigeria perspective, sometimes we slap levies on products that are against some of these our protocols. We have a common external tariff, we sometimes go against that and we say, oh, 70 percent duty. Meanwhile, the rest of the sub-region is charging 20 percent. But can we say to these guys "guys, you know what, out of this 20 percent you guys take 10, we take 10." Ten is better than zero. I think that what we have to be able to do is to decentralize port infrastructure to ensure that goods can move out of Nigeria fairly, fairly, easily. - AOTobi: Yeah.Akin: Let's start to have those conversations. That is the conversation that we need to have and I think that's the conversation we are not having. It can't be a stick all the time, it has to be [a] carrot-and-stick approach. We've got to say, oh, come, how can we optimise this process? These things are coming into Nigeria anyway. How do we move exports? How do we ensure that you can process some of our exports? And that's a conversation that we should have as a sub-region. How do we ensure that Nigeria's customs officials, if this is what your port is built for, we might as well embed our people there and ensure that we are seeing what is coming in? Those are the conversations I think we should have. How does Nigeria expand and before you know it...because we are the biggest economy in the subregion, we have to own that leadership; and for me, that's a bigger issue. That how do we sit with our partners and say, "okay, use your port as entry point into Nigeria as well but the trade-off is that our people will be part and parcel of your process to see what is coming in." I think those are the conversations that we need to have if we're not having. But did something need to be done? Absolutely. And I don't think this is an APC or PDP issue, this is an existential issue for Nigeria. So it's not a partisan ideological issue. This something that we need to resolve. Yes, I know that there are people who have very strong views: you should not shut your borders etc. You should not do this, free trade blah blah blah... but there is no real free trade anywhere. When you think about it critically...Tobi: It's freer trade.Akin: It's freer trade. What is free trade? There are restrictions to trade and it's a per country restriction.Tobi: It's just degrees.Akin: It's just degrees and it's about where you are as a country in your development [and] what is important to you. If the United States says today "well, we don't want to allow wheat into our country." They won't. Mr Trump, for example, is very keen to say "Mr Cook, you have to manufacture more of your products inputs in the United States." Is that free trade? So you've got to ask yourself, what is free trade? Free trade is a misnomer. Yes, you want freer trade, you want to liberalize as much as possible but you want to liberalize within certain conditions and ultimately the job of the government is to optimise value for Nigeria. How that optimisation of value happens is then dependent on where we are as a country at that point in time. So, yeah, there are other things that we have to do with the borders and there are conversations we need to have with our neighbours and I know that some of those conversations are happening. But is there a straight forward answer to that? I don't think it's a yes or no [answer]. It's not a binary conversation at all.Tobi: Okay. So now, here's my argument and a bit of a counter to your position. Yes, I take your point on territorial integrity and the need to actually have a safe and secure border. Absolutely important. But don't you think we are treating the trade issue a bit too much as a zero-sum? Yes, I get why trans-shipment is a problem but if you consider the size of Nigeria's economy and what I think our ambition should be, If we actually focus a lot of our development strategy and policies in areas like building export disciplines in high-tech manufacturing goods, I don't think it would really matter if rice is coming from the Beninois border, really.Akin: Here we go again.Tobi: Like someone, actually a guest of mine, said that rice in this dispute has become a bit of a political crop and...Akin: Was that Mr Fawehinmi?Tobi: No.LaughsTobi: No...and tomorrow it's going to be tomatoes or fertilizers or whatever. But is that really... aren't we really obsessing over table stakes so to speak?Akin: Great question and I think, honestly...first, it's not a zero-sum conversation. I always say you can walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't think that the border issue precludes us from focusing on export discipline and I think, in fact, export discipline is something that as a country we haven't paid any attention to. I spoke with someone who is very knowledgeable about exporting, so this is reported speech, and he said to me that for him today, as a CEO of a large company, he has to go through 14 steps to export his products out of Nigeria and that even prevents his company from using Nigeria as a hub for sub-regional production. And I think, for me, there are two issues: there's the single-window conversation which I hope our government - and when I say our government, our APC government - is able to resolve before 2023. I think it will be the single most important policy issue as regards exports discipline that we can resolve; just ensuring that (everybody) you can do everything in one place, and you don't have to go through the multiplicity of agency interaction. I think that is a critical part of the next wave of our Doing Business reforms, and I know that there are many stakeholders in that space that need to be managed, but I think that navigating that is a critical thing for the government. I think that obviously the port efficiency is a problem and as an individual, I'm very pleased to hear and welcome the development of new ports. I think the Badagry deep-sea port is super important. I think having something up in the South-South, potentially around Akwa-Ibom, is very important. Because, if you think about places like Calabar, people say why is that port not efficient? I don't know the economic decision of citing a port in Calabar. I don't know the draft [or] if the draft was taken into consideration. Many of the locations we're talking about are shallow draft locations that will take significant amount of money to dredge; and therefore, it weakens the business case for these ports. So when people then say "oh, why Lagos?" The most obvious reason for Lagos is the draft. So, I think that what we have to be able to do is to decentralize port infrastructure to ensure that goods can move out of Nigeria fairly, fairly, easily. But I hear you about export discipline and I hear you about focusing on special economic zones and that's why I was very happy to see the Special Economic Zone company setup. Even though that has run into some legislative challenges at the moment, we are hopeful that they will be resolved very early this year. In our state, for example...In Ekiti, we are keen to set up a Special Economic Zone: one, for the knowledge economy, and that is to export services. So things like Business Process Outsourcing which is effectively an export...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: If you think about it. Because we feel like service export helps us to leapfrog some of the infrastructure challenges that you face with industry and manufacturing. Challenges around power. Challenges around transport. Challenges around port limitation. So, we think that focusing on services helps us to navigate around those constraints; and there is no reason why we can't be a BPO hub in the country. If we get broadband and dedicated power rights, I hear from the people who should know that Nigerians speak particularly toneless English, therefore we need less accent training than, say, the southeast Asian market which is the hub of that space now. So we have a very critical upside. The other thing is that at our time zones… we are very well set for, sort of, like, the Central European market etc, and labour is cheap here, you know... cheaper, I'd say, here. We have some of the building blocks in place to be a service export destination.The other thing I'd say with the SEZ is that, we also feel that from an Agric prospective, we definitely should be thinking about exporting a lot more of our produce. And to your point, I don't see any reason why things like rice or tomato should be [a] political issue. I think for me, [it is] absolutely correct that we should be building expert discipline around agriculture and there's no reason why we should not focus on certain crops. Whether it's maize, weather it's cassava, especially with a lot of the gluten-free direction that nutrition is going towards, you know... cassava as the base of a gluten-free export market is certainly very sellable. So I hundred percent agree that expert discipline should be where we're focused, and I think that we can do both. So I don't think that this precludes that conversation from happening.Final point, I think, is, we need to think about sort of charter cities and SEZs and the legislation around that a lot better. The process where people just go and register in a free trade zone just because of tax incentives is, for me, a waste of time. Because you now have a situation where two companies are competing, one of them is paying taxes, the other one is not because they're in a free trade zone. Actually we should be giving the people that incentive if they're exporting. There are some misnomers, there are some things that need to be adjusted. If a place is a special economic zone, it should be because it's geared towards making Nigerian products more competitive internationally and if we are not able to deliver that then should you actually get the benefits, the fiscal benefits? I don't think so. Now, this is my personal opinion and these are some of the issues that I think that we need to debate a lot more vigorously. I think, just generally speaking, across all the things we've discussed, one of the things I worry about is that I think we are not having the right intellectual discussions about policy. We're there discussing which governor believes in stomach infrastructure, which party does A, which party does B, somebody brought Facebook to Nigeria...Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: This other person does not believe in free press...I think that we are losing the opportunity to have a lot of intellectual debates. You know, one of the things I love about China in the 70s and 80s [is], those guys fought themselves on the pages of newspapers with intellectual arguments and when they went to battle, it was a battle of ideas. It wasn't a personal discussion. It wasn't that I dislike you. It wasn't that you are a member of [another party], they were all one party. They were all CCP but the intellectual arguments were fought vigorously, bitterly at some point...Tobi: So, why do you think we're having problems having [intellectual debates]? Is it that our national IQ is low because China and the whole of Asia have that going for them?Akin: I don't think... I think that these guys have also developed a nation of...over a much longer period.Tobi: True.We need Nigerian intellectuals to step up their game. - AOAkin: We're talking about a civilization that goes across, you know...Tobi: About five thousand years.Akin: Five...thousands of years. In that period they've never had a period of where intellectual debates have been frozen. We have had periods where we've just had a freeze. We are twenty years into democracy, I don't think between 1979 and 1999 there was a space for any intellectual discussion, everything was done by decree and by fiat. So I think we're going to have to build that over time. I also think that our universities are not doing enough. I mean, I expect today professors of economics should be writing about the implication of land border controls, we should have papers coming out, we should have people discussing these matters. Why do we have professors of economics in Nigeria who cannot debate existential issues that face the country, who cannot say this is our view? How many economic positions do you read outside the Monetary Policy Committee of the Central Bank? Who else shares public views? You are dependent on MPC members personal statement as the basis, and in a lot of these conversations, there's a lot of groupthink.Tobi: Yeah.Akin: Because they've already made the decision and they're just now writing [the] statement to support those decisions. But I expect on the back page of our newspapers... I mean, whether or not you agree with Henry Boyo of blessed memory...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: He certainly brought a view, you might not agree with the view, but he brought a view that he actively debated. I look at our institutions and I say, where are the discussions happening? Where is the think-tank driving this conversation? If I look at the EAC [Economic Advisory Council] for example, one of the things I say to people is that I certainly am rooting for the EAC, it's chaired by my former boss, but I also feel like we've lost the benefit of having people like Doyin Salami and Charles Soludo and the rest of the members from sharing their personal views in [the] public domain. Because now, you know, they are a member of an advisory...Tobi: CouncilAkin: Council, they can't really speak publicly because it might be taken as the view of the EAC etc. But we need Nigerian intellectuals to step up their game. That, for me, is where we are missing it because... I remember there was a period where... I think it was six of us... I can't remember how many of us... did a week's...um, different pieces every day on foreign exchange liberalisation and I was amazed at the debate that it stimulated and all of us were not... I won't say that we are academics. Maybe out of five of us, Nonso Obikili was the only one that has a PhD, but it was important to have people, at least, put those ideas in the open and let's debate them. And that's one of the reasons I like that people like Feyi constantly, um...Tobi: Engages.Akin: Engage in these debates, because let's have an ideas based conversation. I think Pius Adesanmi of blessed memory said this, and said that: the reason I write is not because I want to change or I think I can change the views or the behaviour of these hard-headed government officials, but it is so that two thousand years from now someone is not going to come and say these people lived like animals and they didn't think...that in the midst of all of this madness, let them even see records that some of us were Thinkers, some of us were speaking. And I found it quite... it was quite sad for me that that was his last public post or article because it was almost like a man that had a premonition that "I might not be here for much longer but I need to let my ideas outlive me" and I think that's what we should be doing. We're talking about China now, we can read the arguments of 1978, 1984 and we can see how those arguments mirror Nigeria of 2019. If those things were not there, we won't even be able to apply them to our current realities, but who is writing the stories of Nigeria today? So I think that's one thing I will say that the intellectual debate is not public and I don't even know that it's happening. I don't know that the universities are writing, and that's one thing that we should be focused on, not ASUU going on strike. The real issue is what are you contributing to town? How are town and gown meeting? How are those two sectors interacting and integrating? It goes even beyond writing... how are we preparing people for the workforce? I was very happy to see the UI Vice Chancellor engaging, saying this is what we are doing as a university and I think that's the kind of engagement that we want to see. We want people to come and... to share their opinions. You studied economic theory for thirty years, how does our current reality fit into this study? And I think that that's how you improve the quality of public discourse.Tobi: So, now, in terms of public discourse, do you think that there is too much ideology in that space?Akin: Too little.Tobi: Really?Akin: I think there's too little.Tobi: Okay, so, I was pointing this out to someone. You mentioned the EAC, right?Akin: Uh-hmm.Tobi: I think except for Doyin Salami, really - I think every other person on that advisory council has some sort of protectionist sentiments.Akin: I disagree.Tobi: Really.Akin: I disagree.Tobi: Okay.Akin: Some are. Some have.Tobi: I know Soludo does. I know Bismark does.Akin: I don't think... I think to be honest, everybody has some protectionist ideology, everybody does. I won't say Soludo does that much.Tobi: He was opposed to the EPA, for example.Akin: But, for some good reasons. The thing is that this thing is not a wholesale opposition. There are parts of this agreement that, to be honest, do not strategically support Nigeria's economic development. You have to recognise that when people come to this table, they come to the table holding nationalistic views disguised as globalised views. At the end of the day, everybody wants what's best for them, and I think that, again, until recently and until Ambassador Sakoye of blessed memory, we didn't have an office that was coordinating our treaties, our agreements, people were signing all sorts of things without even knowing the implication of what they were signing. So I don't think that the opposition was wholesale. There are some people there whose views I can't say I know for sure. There's Iyabo Masha, for example - she used to be at [the] World Bank if I'm not mistaken. I don't think that if you spend so much time at the World Bank you would hold fairly strong protectionist views unless you were able to mask it sufficiently but there are some people that obviously, I mean, Ode Ojowu, for example, is very clear about where he stands on some of these things. But I think the mix is good and the debate...look, it's useful to have people from both sides of the divide. Tobi: True.Akin: We will improve the quality of the discuss by having the divergent views and having diversity of opinions. Tobi: So, let's talk about the influence of ideology in Nigerian politics. Is it too much or too little? And what would work in terms of generating ideas?Akin: Look, at the end of the day, I think we are still fairly underdeveloped in terms of our politics because voter engagement is still at...I'd say, at the kindergarten phase of voter enlightenment and voter engagement. I think that people are still too poor to engage in high-level discourse, and, so, for people, it's still a function of "I want to survive" which is why you find that people are willing to trade the long-term benefits for the immediacy of "pay me 2,000 [naira] and I'll vote for you." And I tell people that, look, this is similar to Lincoln back in the day. I don't know if you remember, Lincoln's slogan was: vote yourself a farm. (And) I joke about it and I say [in] Nigeria the [slogan] is to "vote yourself a pot of stew".LaughsAkin: But if you think about it at that time, people were only interested in "give me land" in the US. So when you're faced with existential issues, people can't think about ideology. It's too abstract...they're looking for mundane...they're more mundane in their expectations, you know. But I think that when you start to improve the quality of life, people then can start thinking...it's almost like Maslow's hierarchy of needs...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: They start to think about "oh, what's more important? Who's thinking about education? Who's improving healthcare?" I say to people that, look, you should be able to say, as a woman, my biggest issue today is maybe "gender mainstreaming", maybe "maternal mortality" and say "look, I'm going to only support a government that emphasizes these two things". If you do not agree to these three issues, then we will not vote for you. The unions are very good at it and this is why [what] I always say about the stubborn minority - the unions, the market women; whatever you say, they get whatever they want. You might disagree with what they want but they get it. The trade unions get it because they will just down tools and they force you to a table. Now, how do we as a broader population start to force people to that table? And this is why I think that the advent of social media is a good thing because more and more...I mean, I was happy to see people engage in a discourse around foreign exchange and exchange rates. Everybody suddenly became an Economist and had a view of where the Naira should be trading. You know, it's a good conversation to have. People are now saying should we close our borders? Whether those views are knowledgeable or not? I want those views on the table. Those are views to have. They are important views so I don't... I think that we are still at a growing phase and I think it will only continue to improve but we're definitely going along that continuum. It didn't happen overnight anywhere in the world, the quality of the politics, the quality of the discussions did not improve overnight, it took time and we have to bank some of those marginal gains. Let me ask you a...okay, well, you are the one asking the questions so I won't ask you a question...Tobi: Shoot.Akin: But think about '99 and 2019...Tobi: Yeah.Akin: And where Nigeria is in its politics, we've advanced... in the quality of the discussions we're having. Politics in 1999, nobody even knew who those guys were. They had no antecedents. I mean, I voted AD in '99 not because of anything but just decide, oh, this is the party of our people. This is Awolowo's party. All you needed to win an election in Yorubaland in '99 was to do the peace sign and wear the Awolowo cap. Some people like Asiwaju did not even need the cap, he just needed the peace sign.Tobi: [Laughs]Akin: Once you were endorsed by Afenifere, you were locked in to win an election. Now, nobody really bothers about that. Whether they support or they oppose you, people a lot more independent in their views. Back then if you were Ohaneze Ndigbo you win in the South-East, I don't think that that holds very much now. Otherwise, APGA would be the dominant party in the South-East.Tobi: But to pick up on that point, wouldn't you say that was better in some sense? Okay, if I'm voting in the South-West, for example, and whether true or false if someone is running on an Awolowo platform, I know the antecedents of that...Akin: But the truth...Tobi: I know the history of that...Akin: But the truth of that is that people only use that... some people use that as a vehicle to get power. It's not because they believed in the philosophy of man or the philosophy of the UPN or the Action Group. Tell them to tell you any part of the AG manifesto that they know. They don't but they've realised that people took things at face value and if you wore a cap and did a peace sign you win an election. Tobi: But is that any less preferable than 2000 naira at the polling unit that we have now?Akin: I'll tell you one thing...I'm a big fan of marginal gains as you might have suspected, there were times... look, till today, the election that was superintended by Maurice Iwu, show me anywhere where you can find the breakdown of results whether real or imagined per polling unit for the presidential election. The's a summary, take-it-or-leave-it there's no breakdown of the election anywhere.Tobi: How did he get away with that by the way?Akin: The point is Obasanjo made him get away with it. Let's be clear... so let me tell you one thing: I'm not saying elections are perfect, the fact that people are paying for you to vote for them means that they believe your vote counts...(because if you don't pay) Let's be honest about this, right? If I'm paying you 2000 naira for you to vote for me what does that tell you? It tells you that they need you to act to vote to win the election. They actually need that act from you. In 2007, in 2011... by 2011 things has started changing but as of 2007, you did not need that physical act of voting to happen. What I'm saying is that things have shifted... you might... people can disagree and it's an opinion, but I'm saying things have shifted, they might not be perfect or close to perfect but things have shifted and our goal is to ensure that things continue to shift. Maybe in 2023, we will create a situation where you can't even tell how I have voted to remove the incentive of paying me to vote. INEC did some things like, say, we don't want to see mobile phones, etcetera. We're going to keep improving the process. I think that we have moved. People are now saying, oh, we want to... some people will say oh, PDP wanted to infiltrate and hack our servers. Somebody will say the results on the server was different from the one you published. We are now having a conversation where we've moved the realm of the debate to cybersecurity... Tobi: Cyberspace.Akin: And cyber attacks. Ten years ago the conversation was they snatched 20 ballot boxes.Tobi: [Laughs] But they're still snatching ballot boxes.Akin: But it's reduced.Tobi: Yeah... yeah.Akin: Let me tell you, if you think about it, twenty years ago people were saying, look, we did not even vote here.Tobi: True.Akin: We are reducing those issues. Social media is helping us democratize those issues. If you look at the 2019 elections, whether real or manufactured people were reporting issues in their polling units on the go. You could tell even just looking at some of the results per PU who was going to win an election where. Ekiti elections for example - I was away, I was not even in the country on the day of the election and when I saw the results from my polling unit, I knew immediately that Dr Fayemi had won that election, because we were on course to win Ikole local government, which is my local government, which is a place that, historically, we've always struggled with as a party. So you can tell that look, elections are starting to count, matter a lot more. It's not perfect, it's not anywhere close to perfect but let's not say that there have not been any gains and I have my views on one of the biggest reasons why we've seen those gains. It's the absence of General Obasanjo...President Obasanjo (apologies) from mainstream politics in Nigeria.Tobi: Why? Explain that.Akin: Because I think that the winner-takes-all mentality that he personally projected transcended beyond him and then influenced, broadly speaking, political parties on the country. I think that President Yar'Adua, Jonathan and Buhari have been less involved in ensuring that their parties remain dominant across the country. President Yar'Adua, for example, he had an "I came in through a tainted process...Sometimes keeping the people you meet in government is as important or more important than appointing new people. - AOTobi: Yeah.Akin: And, I am embarrassed by it and the way I will resolve it is by taking my hands off and saying let the will of the people be done. President Buhari, for example, has shown a willingness to work across parties with the governors. If you talk to the governors in Nigeria today, all of them are united in the fact that regardless of our political parties this President is happy to work with us. There was a time in this country where ecological fund and all these special projects were only reserved for gov

My Conversation with Adedayo was an enjoyable experience, as you can tell from the lighthearted tone. He is brilliant and still very much underrated. He also has an incredible personal story - the triumph of choice, opportunity, and knowledge. I hope he gets to tell it one day. The recurrent theme in our conversation is knowledge (human capital) and its importance to development. You can also listen on Stitcher here or read the transcript below. Many thanks to Quadbee for the continued Herculean efforts in making these conversations possible.TranscriptTobi: This is Ideas Untrapped and I am here with Adedayo Bakare. Adedayo is an investment banker, an economist, an entrepreneur and an all-round smart guy. So Dayo it's nice to have you here.Dayo: Thanks for having me, Tobi. I've been looking forward to this and...so I'm very excited.Tobi: So have I, actually. So...let me just jump right in on something you said very recently about trade that, for example, if a country collects twenty percent of its taxes in tariffs, it's definitely killing trade. Just explore that angle a bit and get us into your frame of mind in thinking about that.Dayo: I think I was responding to a tweet about the implications in terms of tax revenues if Africa countries get to implement this continental trade agreement that was recently signed that would start being implemented in 2020. And so I think one of the issues, (i mean) at least protests, from some segment of, say, policy analysts is that a lot of African countries actually depend on revenues from trade - that is, tariff revenues - and one of the ways I think that happens is...(I mean) most African economies are informal in nature. In Nigeria, for instance, I think IMF estimates that [the] level of informality we have in the economy is around sixty percent. So what happens is if government is not able to tax a lot of productive activities that is going on in the economy, and one of the easiest ways to continue to raise money, which is also tied to industrial policy, is around [raising] tariffs.In Nigeria, for instance, we are very big on tariffs to encourage what they call local production even if in some cases we do not have the capacity to do it, but [the] government never stops. The auto policy for instance that was implemented under the Jonathan  era raised tariffs on motor vehicles to like seventy percent to encourage FDI into assembly plants for cars and all sorts. Then you start to imagine how does this even make any sense when we really do not have the capacity, we don't have the skill, expertise, we don't have a good business environment that will support industrialization. So why are we embarking on such a policy? And since the implementation of that policy it has failed woefully, because, obviously, I think it's only Innoson that has been able to, at least, benefit from that policy; and even when you think in terms of his manufacturing capacity, how many cars does he produced in a year? In terms of how affordable the car is, is it affordable for the ordinary Nigerian to buy? It's not. So obviously you have... you have that problem.The starting point should not be that a lot of African countries will lose revenues from tariffs. The starting point should be that does it even make sense for an economy to be reliant on trade for its revenues, that is, in terms of tariff revenues as a share of total government revenues. - ABNow in terms of revenues, one of the easiest ways to actually raise revenue is also to raise tariffs. You can have thirty percent tariffs, you can have fifty percent tariffs on some items and that is why overtime when you combine that with a largely informal economy (where taxation is very very [low], tax to GDP ratios are lower than, say, other emerging markets and advanced economies) then you tend to get a sense of why tariff revenues make up in a very large of share government's revenue.Now, my argument is, the starting point should not be that a lot of African countries will lose revenues from tariffs. The starting point should be that does it even make sense for an economy to be reliant on trade for its revenues, that is, in terms of tariff revenues as a share of total government revenues. If we look at most of, say, the advanced economies you'll see that tariff revenues are a very very small component...Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: Of total government earnings and I feel like that is what Africa should try to explore.Clears throatAnd by exploring that we could open up a new vista of opportunities for the economy which could propel growth and prosperity. But the catch is this, it is very very easy to quantify one, the other is very hard to quantify. Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: You can easily quantify the fact that, oh, if we export a certain amount of goods in a year, if we tax it at this rate we're going to obtain this size of revenue. But when you tell a government to, oh, relax your tariffs to encourage maybe even your manufacturing sector such that they have access to quality raw materials, it's hard to capture into, you know, the productivity gains for the company or basically the employment potential of it, and even the taxes that accrue to the government from that extra productivity. It's actually hard for economies to quantify them. So that is why it is easy for someone to come out and say, oh, Cote d'Ivoire is going to lose 10% of their, er...Tobi: Revenue.Adedayo: Revenues... because of the implementation of the AfCFTA [African Continental Free Trade Agreement]. So apart the fact that a lot of Africans do not even trade... a lot of African countries do not trade with Africa, so a large chunk of the tariff is actually trade with external partners, that is, Asia primarily now and maybe Europe in the case of Nigeria. I think our major trading partners are Asia and Europe. So even when we start to develop, you know, local value chains to say, oh, we're exporting into the African market. Some of the natural resource that we have, most African countries do not even have the capacity or the industry to use it so we still have to export a lot of those things outside Africa and you can still generate whatever tariff revenues you're obtaining from that. But really the idea is that, for African countries, we have to look past trade as this money-spinning machine for the government. It's something that should spur enterprise and development and the development of processing industries and local value chains. We should see it as something...we should see in the sense that... the way the World Bank captures ease of doing business, say, oh, access to roads or the time it takes to...er say...Tobi: Register a company.Adedayo: To register a company or to register a property. Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: Trade should also be something like that. I mean, tariffs should also be something like that - how liberal your tariffs are. Especially in the developing countries. Because it is also important, it goes a long way in what you have in the manufacturing sector and I think nobody would argue, even the government, with what we've seen  between 2015 and 2016 when we had the currency crisis and a lot of manufacturing companies could not obtain raw materials to use in production and we saw the impact on the books those companies and even for government which eventually collects revenue from them. So I think that is the way to actually think about it [but] unfortunately trade is very very contentious, and...Tobi: Why is that, really? Is it really a case of failing to learn from history because, I mean, you talk about quantifiability, it may be difficult in the case of any specific country to prospectively quantify how much you'll gain from trade. But historically we know there are gains from trade. Huge gains actually. So is it simply a case...or what is really the constraint?... why is trade so contentious for us?Adedayo: Umm, it's really the way we think about it. In Nigeria for instance, many people see trade - imports - for instance, they see it as "if you're importing from someone, you're at a disadvantage". That's the general idea which the Nigerian media will call waste. So Nigeria wastes 200 million dollars in importing tomato paste.Tobi: YeahAdedayo: Or Nigeria wastes...Tobi: Or we're losing...Adedayo: Oh, we're losing our FX [foreign exchange] in importing iPhones...but they never say that about iPhones...LaughsTobi: Or Champagnes for that matter.LaughsAdedayo: They never say. So you start to wonder why? I think there are several reasons. One of the reasons that I feel like most people overlook is: the average Nigerian believe that when it comes to certain kind of products, (agriculture is one) the Nigerian might have a palm oil tree in their house or they do maize, you know, in their backyard - they plant maize in their backyard which even if it's not commercial farming, for subsistent use - and a lot of them...it's hard for them to understand that people trade based on what we now know as comparative advantage. You specialise in something you can do better than other countries such that by the time you're exporting to other countries they will buy it cheaper and it's good for everybody.But the average Nigerian believes, you know, agriculture. We are very big on agriculture. We have the land so I can plant oranges behind my...in my garden, so why are you now saying Nigeria cannot produce this and we have to import it? They do not understand that it's probably cheaper, maybe fifty percent even cheaper to plant rice in Thailand or Vietnam than in Nigeria. Most do not understand that maybe the soil you have (the soil formation you have) is not conducive to deriving high yields of those products; and it is on that basis that you have trading with other nations because you assume that oh, a country can do it better than you and you go there to import it; and basically the average Nigerian doesn't understand that. They just want to know that - palm oil...we are good at palm oil. Malaysia - they came to get their seeds...Tobi: Yeah, how true is that story by the way?LaughsAdedayo: I actually don't know how true that is but they will tell you that - Malaysia - they came to get their seeds for palm oil in Nigeria. And now look at them, they're the largest producers of palm oil... [stuttering]Tobi: Whatever proxy we use...Adedayo: Exactly...in and the world. And you begin to ask that okay so let's even assume they got the seedlings from Nigeria, what have you done to improve those seedlings? There are different varieties of palm oil, for instance - they have this Tenera, there is Pisifera, there is another one [Dura]. And what you find that a lot of Nigerians are planting, they are varieties that have not been improved. So in terms of yield, it's very very poor. The gestation period is extended, some go into six, seven years. You see palm trees taller than houses- like, you're basically going to hire someone to help you harvest your fruits. Many do not think in the sense that that is unproductive. They don't think in the sense that yields are very very poor; because when you process, what you can derive, the output you can derive is actually very very low compared to other countries. They just think in terms of we can plant it in Nigeria. They don't think in terms of "can we plant it better than other countries"? I mean, rice or palm oil or whatever it is essentially. So in a way, I feel like that is actually a crucial factor because in my discussions with ordinary Nigerians, they will tell you "I plant cassava, I plant this" but the question is not if you can plant it... Tobi: We have Bamboos so why do we have to import toothpicks?Adedayo: Why did we have to import toothpicks, exactly. But do you have the ecosystem to support the production of toothpicks? Oh, we have... there [are] tomatoes wasting in the North why are we importing tomato paste?Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: It goes beyond primary production, being able to produce tomatoes. Then you start asking, what kind of variety of tomatoes are you even producing? Are they suitable for processing? So those are the questions that Nigerians do not understand. Then there's also the case which is something connected to what is, I think, happening all over the world. We're seeing rising protectionism.Tobi: Yeah...yeah.Adedayo: It's actually all over the world and one of the things is...Tobi: It's sad.Adedayo: It is sad. LaughAdedayo: So for trade, overall, there is a net gain, right?Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: It's been proven historically that there is a net gain to society from trading. However, there could also be displacements...Tobi: Definitely.Adedayo: In certain sectors or industries, so you have politicians appealing to those sentiments and a lot of that view. People too, we tend to appeal to those sentiments because even when you see the conversations around the free trade agreement in Africa, a lot of people would say, "oh, they will come and dump goods in Nigeria - the manufacturing sector, they're going to kill jobs, they're going to do this"; and I always tell them "have you even taken a look at the manufacturing sector in Nigeria?" As a share of GDP it's not so big, but when you take it in absolute terms I think there are only, maybe, three more countries that have bigger manufacturing sectors - maybe Egypt. Morocco is also doing a lot now and South Africa.Tobi: YeahAdedayo: Now the challenge with Nigeria is our manufacturing is not quite as sophisticated or complex as what you have in South Africa, in Morocco or in Egypt for instance. But in terms of saying "oh, do we have a big manufacturing sector?" Yeah, we have a bigger manufacturing sector than most of [our] African peers. We actually export a lot of manufacturing products through land and, of course, there's a question where... also when you think in terms even the trade balance (manufacturing trade balance with other African countries) I think we only have a negative trade balance with probably South Africa. When you look at West Africa as a whole in terms of manufacturing, we actually have a positive trade balance with West Africa because we have a big manufacturing sector even if it's just textiles or footwear and garments being manufactured in Abia... I mean Aba. We are sending it to [the] Benin Republic, we're sending it to Togo, we're sending it to Cameroon. If it's not even as sophisticated but we are, at least, doing something.Tobi: The problem is we don't want them to send to us.Adedayo: Exactly. Now, the problem is you don't want those things to come into Nigeria. So in that sense, there's a lot of fear around the dislocation of, maybe, workers, and there's a lot of literature on it as well and many people would usually say "oh, they should, maybe, train people who lose jobs and try to integrate them into other sectors of the economy" but I think one of the things we're missing is: even in terms of manufacturing, if we have liberal trade in Africa it could actually open the doors for other industries which we've actually not looked at in Africa that would actually take up some of the [un]employed people. As a share of employment, the manufacturing sector is very low. I don't think the manufacturing sector employs up to ten percent. We all scream "Dangote! Dangote! Dangote!" How many people can Dangote Cement employ? And even that is connected to my ideas around seeing manufacturing as a way to growth and prosperity in Africa.Tobi: Yeah, we will get to that.Adedayo: When you start to explore it. So, really, trade is actually very very tedious in terms of the underlying concepts called comparative advantage. The ordinary man does not understand that and I think that is really the biggest misconception about trade and why we have challenges [in] having to implement liberal trade policies in Africa.Tobi: You talked about agriculture.Adedayo: Yeah.Tobi: I'll like to explore something I was discussing recently with some people. You know, agriculture (and you can correct me if I'm wrong on this) currently employs about fifty percent of the workforce...Adedayo: Very close. Very close. Yes, forty-five... about forty-five percent.Tobi: But, again, when you look at history for example; over, say, the last 300 years; the global population - we've grown the global population by about sevenfold from around a billion to seven billion currently. We've grown agricultural productivity to about tenfold, that is, we actually produce a lot of food. But when you see agriculture share of employment, it has gone from about 75% to about 2.5% currently.Adedayo: Exactly.Tobi: So, now, my question is, isn't our share of agricultural jobs really a problem for productivity rather than people looking at it as a positive, you know, like, "oh, agriculture is the largest employer of labour in Nigeria hence you have to direct resources to it here". But isn't the correct framework to look at it be that to achieve agricultural productivity we might actually have to lose agricultural jobs?Adedayo: Yeah, absolutely. It's very interesting because there was something I explored when I was at PwC [PriceWaterhouseCoopers] and we were looking at job creation in Nigeria and we were looking at basically services, the industrial sector, and agriculture and that forced me to, like, look at advanced economies and to see the structural transformation of the economies (that is, the structure of the GDP over time) and what you discover is as these societies evolve, as they continue to grow, the share of [agriculture] employment has reduced drastically, later on manufacturing starts falling and really what starts expanding is [services]. It's the services that really becomes the biggest share of GDP. So in Nigeria, it's actually quite interesting that you mentioned that because we have too many people in agriculture. I believe we have too many people in agriculture and they are largely unproductive. So...I've been reading a lot about what I call political crops in Nigeria.Tobi: That's interesting.LaughsAdedayo: They are very political. Rice is one of them...Tobi: Okay...Adedayo: Tomato is one of them...Tobi: Okay...Adedayo: Oil palm is one of them.Tobi: All from Kano.LaughterAdedayo: Rice from Kano. So one of the experiences that has shaped my ideas about agriculture is the project I was on with CUSO International. We had to work with farmers in different sub-sectors of agriculture and what you find out is: the challenge is actually...it's a lot of challenges, really.When you go to the field you discover that it's not necessarily cheap money that is the problem of farmers. I had farmers in my project who had money but it was very difficult for them to source inputs. - ABThe farmers, for instance, one of the ways government approaches it is to say "let's pump more resources into agriculture". By more resources, basically more money - cheap money. But when you go to the field you discover that it's not necessarily cheap money that is the problem of farmers. I had farmers in my project who had money but it was very difficult for them to source inputs. They had to travel, you know, to the next town or the next city just to get fertilizer or to get inputs into what they were doing. So in my thinking about agriculture, what I would like to say is mainly Nigerian farmers are unproductive, yields are very very low and they've not improved for decades. Cereal, for instance, we say one of the most consumed things globally is cereal, right? And, so, I remember I was writing a report and I had to just go and look at how yields are trended over the years and I discovered that over the past four decades Nigeria has made no notable progress; in terms of expanding yields for cereal which is actually...which you could say is crucial to food security, right?Tobi: YeahAdedayo: Draw a chart of other countries - Asian countries - and you'll see the rapid kind of improvements they've made. And I feel like that is what we have to start looking at. Government has to start looking at "how can we drive productivity?" One of the things I've been exploring of late too is: we're giving money to all these people [to] go and start farms. What is the total arable land we have in Nigeria? With the level of productivity we have in this country, when the population doubles according to [the] UN by 2050; if we plant rice on all arable lands in Nigeria, will you be able to feed 400 million people with the level of youth you have currently?  So the question is - how do we do more using less land resources and getting more value per hectare? (And) that is one area I think the government needs to focus on that they've not been able to focus on, and to do that, really, you probably have to let go of most of the manpower you have [in agriculture]. Because it ties into what you're saying. When you start thinking [about it], agriculture is difficult but in Nigeria it is usually the last hope for someone who can't hack it in other fields. "I'll go back to the farm", right? Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: They'll say they will go back to the farm as if agriculture is something that requires no intelligence, no form of knowledge or skill. "I'll go back to the farm or I'll plant this". And that is why a lot of them can't get out of the trap; because when you are involved in agriculture then you start thinking about "you want to start a farm"...a large [organisation like] PZ, for instance, which is doing a lot of backward integration. They want start a farm, they'll go and look for "okay, where are the best places in Nigeria to site this farm?" I want to plant rice, am I planting rice...the land I have, is it upland or lowland? Will I be able to irrigate the lands? The yields on irrigated lands are better [than] on non-irrigated lands for rice. [But] a lot of Nigerian farmers do not know this because they have no skill, they did not go to school, they have no knowledge. Fertilizer: what percentage of fertilizer should I apply? What size? What are the nutrients necessary for this type of crop? The average farmer cannot know this because they did not go to school, they did not have access to even informal education to learn this; then you start asking yourself, should agriculture really be for the people who have not been able to do anything in their life - without skill, without knowledge? It's not. Government is shouting food security. To achieve that, by boosting productivity, we actually need to evolve in the way our agriculture is structured in Nigeria. Smallholder farmers will eventually not take us to the destination we want because they are too unproductive, they're too unorganised and that's even when you're producing a lot, [then] aggregating it becomes very very difficult in terms of access to, maybe, improved seedlings. Government is not doing enough in investing in the research institutes we have. We have agricultural research institutes - I know for one that NIFOR [Nigerian Institute for Oil Palm Research] is in Benin and a lot of the palm oil farmers I monitored then usually travel to Benin to actually get seed for planting in the nursery and sell it to farmers.Tobi: There is a cocoa research institute in Ibadan.Adedayo: Exactly. They are not investing a lot for them to actually generate ideas that could unlock our productivity deficit in agriculture. So for me, I feel it is necessary for Nigeria to move beyond the current structure we have where we have a lot of smallholder farmers. Like I've said; they are not fit for the job. If our task is really to feed Nigerians by producing locally, and with full knowledge that eventually we're going to get to the stage where we won't be able to import all of our food needs and we will need to start investing locally in food value chains because if we're going to have 200 million more mouths to feed in the next 30 years.Tobi: That's scary.Adedayo: It's scary. And you want to ask "what are we doing?" I mean, I don't know what the government is going to do about it but the current structure - if we want economic prosperity, if we want food security - it can't stand. We need to go into ... When people say large-scale (large-scale) farming, it is because a large-scale farmer would probably be a bit more serious, [she] would apply more thought before going into farming than someone who believes - "Farming is my last resort. When I go to Lagos and it fails, I go back to the farm". A large-scale manufacturer will not think in terms of that. We are recently consulting for a giant in Nigerian consumer space now. [A] household name. So they are backward integrating and they want to start...they've actually started - oil palm plantations. And, do you know what their challenge is now? It's actually to estimate the size of the market. Because there is no reliable data on something as simple as oil palm consumption in Nigeria and that's basically what we're working with them on.Tobi: Wow.Adedayo: They want to commit a lot of resources into it and that is why they are thinking about it that - "oh, do these opportunities really exist?'' In terms of selecting the place to site their farms, we know we have more oil palm businesses in the Niger Delta - Benin and Cross-Rivers and all these places. The thought required in terms of the soil requirement, the seedlings requirement, the fertilizer requirement - you can't rely on the smallholder farmers to make those decisions. It is the large-scale farmers, the commercial farmers that would undertake that, even if later on they employee labourers on the fields. But from the strategy perspective and in terms of boosting yields and everything, they are going to apply more thought than the ordinary smallholder farmer. So the question is how does this end? On the part of government I'm really not optimistic that they would do more than just giving cheap loans or giving subsidized fertilizer. Which is another policy area that is challenging. Government will say "oh, we will ban the importation of fertilizer" but different farms, different crops need different fertilizer requirements. It's also a very complex decision for framers to make but you're selling the same type of fertilizer or you're trying to sell the same type of fertilizer for every farmer; for the person planting maize, for the person...laughsFor the farmer planting tomatoes and everything. So you start asking yourself "now, okay, how does this make any sense?" And to break out of this chain, I think what will just happen is a lot of Nigerian companies especially those listed [on the stock exchange] and which we talk to their management regularly, we've discovered that they are trying to backward integrate as much as possible. So maybe that would spur some form of commercial activity and maybe we will continue to have private interests, maybe beyond the requirements for them to process their goods. They are going to start looking to export markets and, you have, maybe, PZ for instance. [They] have an oil palm plantation which they do not use all of the output maybe they would now start exploring outside markets (market outside Nigeria) and that could cause a chain of continuous investment in the value chain. That is the way I see it currently, that those companies (private interests) can continue to expand and slowly we see... because think about it- if Olam continues to invest in rice for instance and we know Olam will prioritize yields and all those things and they will be a bit more productive, at least, than the smallholder farmer; we could get to a stage where Olam (even in the domestic market) become very competitive such that even the normal farmer won't be able to go to the market and say "oh, I want to go and sell my paddy" because there is an Olam who has a large farm with very very high yields and, maybe, probably cheaper prices, better quality rice output that would now make the smallholder very uncompetitive and as a result of that you'll see that the share of smallholder farmers in terms of planting some of these crops that are so vital to food security continues to fall and you continue to have a lot of a private interest in that area. Unfortunately data in Nigeria is actually very hard to gather and that is one of my issues also with development interventions in Nigeria because when you look at multilateral firms or NGOs. Once they embark on projects, there's usually a bit more thought into it; even in terms of monitoring and evaluating such projects.Tobi: Even if they sometimes invest in the wrong projects.Adedayo: Yes. Even if they sometimes invest in the wrong projects but to an extent, you can, at least, get data to analyse and see. Because we say "knowledge! knowledge!" Knowledge is compounding.Tobi: Yep.Adedayo: We just didn't start using laptops or iPhones. It was some people that started and we kept building on it, we kept accumulating that type of knowledge. So the questions for the Nigerian policy makers is: all the government interventions which is one of the reasons why... probably why all these bad ideas persist anyway because nobody actually tracks anything. You don't monitor it. The CBN does not issue a policy paper to explain their reasons for backing cassava [or] for backing oil palm or collect data on loans that were extended to farmers, repayment terms and everything. On productivity, monitoring those firms sort of productivity for their yields. I've never seen any report on that from the CBN or from the Federal Ministry of Agriculture. Yet they pump billions. Then it's now difficult for us to measure - did this program actually work? Did it not work? What are the lessons from the past that we can actually apply to recent policies? We don't. Because nobody is keeping the data. So it's one of the ways I think all these bad ideas persist because we're not collecting data on it. There is nothing to analyse. You're basically flying blind. So as analysts, we basically just say "oh, this is not likely to work" because this this this or because in other countries that have done it this is how they've gone about. But in Nigeria, we've been doing development intervention since when?Tobi: Yeah, a long time.Adedayo: For a very long time and you will discover that the same ideas continue till today.Tobi: Exactly.Adedayo: So you start to ask if it's not working then why do you think it's going to work now? What are we doing differently? Are we learning any lessons? I feel like if we've been learning a lot from those decades we should have had a body of knowledge that we should have discarded some ideas already that this is not working and we should continue to build on it even if it takes a long time. Currently, it seems like everything is the same. Which is the same thing. They closed the border in the 1980s, they are closing the border today. So, really, that is the way out, I think. We are going to have more private capital into agriculture, not deliberately or incentivised by government themselves but by the fact that as more companies see reasons to backward integrate, as they see reasons to even improve competitiveness even in terms of their sourcing because they need to protect their margins and to be competitive globally. We're going to see a bit more interest and that would maybe force us to explore export market and that is the way out, basically. I have no faith in the government to take us out of...Tobi: That's interesting. There are two things I'll just like to quickly pick up on from what you said. You talked about political crops...LaughsTobi: I don't know, I love that term so much and it's one of my challenges with the concept of comparative advantage...Adedayo: Okay.Tobi: I think that the problem with comparative advantage in our own context is that we naturally see our comparative advantages in our natural resources and when we try to do development that's where we...Adedayo: Focus on...Tobi: Funnel resources into, and historically you'll see that that actually causes deindustrialisation because some of your trading partners (they) then specialise and they will only deal or trade with you based on your identified comparative advantage which may just be primary products and then you make a lot of money when prices (international prices) are high but you have no industrial capacity whatsoever. So do we really need to rethink the concept of comparative advantage in our own context?And then secondly, maybe a bit of a push back on large-scale farming. One underexplored area is land rights for farmers. I don't work with farmers so I don't know much in that area but from a little bit of experience, I know that some of them work in farming collectives. Some of them do not even have rights to the land on which they plant and if you recall one of the big policy changes in Asia, for example, was to give farmers the rights to their land. Even smallholder farmers became productive. So is it really about farms sizes or is it about who owns the land, basically?Adedayo: Let me start [with] the first question. Yeah. I think in terms of comparative advantage, us looking at natural resources, I feel like...I really don't think it's a problem with comparative advantage. It's more of a problem with what we've decided to focus on, which is also connected to I think what you mentioned earlier about government organisations going into wrong projects. I think the starting point is trying to ask this question: how do we...in the case of Nigeria, for instance, how do we create millions of jobs, right? So I think what they look at is just - which sector employs...Tobi: Close to that?Adedayo: Close to that. Oh, Agriculture. Okay, let's invest in agriculture. So it's something of that sort because they would say... they'll say you have comparative advantage. Why? because a lot of them are in agriculture already. Like I said earlier, they are really not very knowledgeable people, so they're already in agriculture. I can't say Nigeria is even more productive in terms of maybe planting tomato than a comparable country. They [policy makers] can't also say that. So rather than say, maybe, explore other sectors or maybe even other sub-sectors even under agriculture that could kind of bring a lot of change, they keep focusing on the same thing. For me, I really don't think it's about comparative advantage. You see comparative advantage in what you can explore. If you don't believe human capital can be explored for development, for instance; it's hard for you to want to now say "oh" or for a development organisation you could say - oh, Nigeria has a lot of people - or we have a lot of young graduates and if we don't see them as capital to an extent, we might not much see them as comparative advantage...because basically some do not look at human capital as comparative advantage and it could actually be one of the things that could unlock maybe some of the progress we want to see. But you are fixated on agriculture. You start from the sector and you're now trying to find within the sector what Nigerians can do better. I really don't think development interventions is from the perspective of what people can do better. It's from what are people doing and how can we make them better at what they are doing? That's why if you read FAO, World Bank and all those research, they'll say "oh, we have a lot of people, we have women in farming". The question is should these women be in farming? Are they planting the right things? Should they be trained to go into other sectors where they could be better used as labourers? No. What they try to do is: they're already farming, why don't we make them better at what they're already doing? It's really not from the idea that... maybe we should...Tobi: What's the best to use...Adedayo: What's the best use of these...Tobi: Of their...Adedayo: Of their labour?Tobi: Of their capacity?Adedayo: Or their capacity. So it's basically around - let's just help them do what [they do]. It's just like the average Nigerian man and maybe you are a rich family man where people come and knock on your door and they come and meet you and you're like "okay, what are you doing now?" [The person responds] "Oh, I'm into furniture".Tobi: And you give them money.Adedayo: And you'll be like "so, what do you need to improve your business?" Oh, I need a loan. You give them the loan. You're not asking whether "should you be doing carpentry? Shouldn't you explore something that would be better for you? It's a very lazy approach, I agree with you. So in terms of comparative advantages, I think we've been... we've not been open-minded a lot about it and we're not ready for the kind of changes we're going to have to make to look past maybe the natural resources sector has comparative advantages for Nigeria. In terms of (also) natural resources that are very very easy to get, the oil and gas sector for instance; one could say is natural resources, right? And it's one of those sectors where overtime maybe we should have seen more industrialisation if we've had a lot of local content into the industry. But it was so easy for us because we just had the resources. We had no capital. We didn't even have the labour because we don't have skilled personnel to actually say "oh, we want to mine oil or anything". We just hired...Tobi: IOCs [International Oil Companies]Adedayo: IOCs. "Come and do this for us". It's like you're in your house...so I hire cooks, I hire cleaners. If I live in a rich man's house or my father is rich, I might not know how to do those things and they could be useful skills for you maybe in terms of application even if you don't want to become a cook or you don't want to become a cleaner. But nobody thinks about that and that is one of the things I've seen in that sector as well. Because if you think about oil and gas, it's very capital-intensive. You need a lot of knowledge. We need to be able to build things and apply things and yet we've not seen it (kind of) spur innovation in other sectors of the economy (that is, the knowledge we've learnt from building ships or building rigs or doing all those things), we've not been able to see it in other parts of the economy.Tobi: We can't even maintain refineries.LaughsAdedayo: Not talk of building new things. Even in natural resources, there are unexplored areas that could actually cause a chain of development in other sectors. We've not seen it, really and it's actually quite disappointing. I think also [that] it's on the part of [the] government to do most of these things. In terms of local content, they're celebrating this Egina field. They're saying they did a fabrication and whatever at Ladol here in Nigeria. But ain't we like four decades late or something? because imagine if we've had that from the start...Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: A lot of those people would have...with the knowledge they've acquired in oil and gas they would have probably gone into other sectors maybe the one servicing the oil and gas industry then you'll see knowledge keeps, um..Tobi: Percolating.Adedayo: Exactly. All over the economy. So I think for us, it's not really just even about natural resources, [our] oil and gas experience, we've not taken advantage of some of the benefits it would have offered us in terms of building an industrialized economy or a knowledge economy. The second question was on, umm...Tobi: Farmers. Land rights.Adedayo: Land rights. Yeah. So let me give you a bit of perspective of what I've learnt. Okay, so I worked in Yala local government. It's very close to Ogoja. Ogoja is one of the popular places in Cross River and Obudu.Tobi: Okay.Adedayo: Yeah, very close to Obudu [in] northern Cross River and [in] one of the villages we worked in, one of the issues discovered was [that] it was very difficult to get land for women because women were not sort of entitled to lands. So even if the father dies and there is heritance, land inheritance...Tobi: YeahAdedayo: It goes to the men. It doesn't go to...Tobi: To the women.Adedayo: To the women. And one of the things we were trying to do then is try to talk to the communities to actually relax some of those rules. So using that as an example, I would say to an extent, yeah, it affects because they pay rent on the land. And [for] some, the cost of acquiring some of the land can be bad. So for women farmers even if they're very productive on their farmlands, when you account for the cost of acquiring the land or even securing the land you will discover that they are not getting quite much in terms of their output. Yeah, I absolutely agree that land rights are critical to farmers but I don't believe it's the major thing holding farmers back.I feel like knowledge; you can have land and not have knowledge and you'll still be unproductive without knowledge. So maybe the farmers we had in Asia (it's maybe something I have to read up on)...farmers have access to land, right? It's a good thing for farmers in Asia but I believe that was not the single most important determinant of their productivity.Tobi: Definitely. Definitely. Adedayo: Exactly. There is still a bit of knowledge gap with an average Asian farmer compared with a Nigerian farmer. But I feel like, from the experience I had on the ground, land is absolutely crucial; because it gave us a lot of headache. You know when we've invested a lot of people - technical training, giving them grants, train them, sponsoring them, feeding them, and at a point where they're supposed to start engaging in that activity they weren't able to secure lands or the lands they were able to get which men were able to get very easily, women had a challenge getting it or they had to pay a high price for it and you discover in most cases most of the lands they eventually get are those lands that are not quite as good and that would take them to walk long hours before you get to... you know when you have to walk 1 hour 30 minutes. You want to go and farm, you have to walk for 1 hour 30 minutes...Tobi: Wow.Adedayo: To get to your land before you... you can imagine the energy you've lost by walking 1 hour 30 minutes...Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: Just before you get to your farm then you start asking, you know... and that is one of the challenges most of these people have in terms of securing access to land. So I feel it's crucial for us to figure out a way to encourage farmers to have access to lands, especially for women. Women are at a particular advantage but I feel like it's still not going to (kind of) release the kind of impact we want in that sector we still need knowledge, really.Tobi: I agree and a quick side note on that point. I think one of the least appreciated things about development in Asia is the Incredible amount of human capital that went into some of the reforms, you know... like, when you see people, they say "oh, Asia did this and hence we should do it too". We usually don't think about the state capacity for one, that is, the human capital that is within the government bureaucracy itself. These are incredibly knowledgeable guys who read a lot, who researched a lot, who actually were on ground and know what is going on in their countries and they could actually push through those reforms and they could see where things are going wrong and tweak and change course if necessary. You think about Korea -  sometimes we think of that history begins at the inflection point but usually, it doesn't, you know...Adedayo: Exactly.Tobi: Because I've read multiple papers about even the incredible amount of human capital even in terms of industrial capabilities that Korea acquired under Japanese colonization. But we look at an independent Korea and what they did and we say "oh, yeah, they did so and so policy and we should try and replicate that".Adedayo: Neglecting the knowledge transfer.Tobi: Exactly. So I agree with you about human capital, it's extremely important and I'm quite big on that as well. Let's talk about private capital now which you mentioned earlier. Now, shouldn't capital [also] be going to processing? I remember in one of your articles you talked about the processing gap in agriculture in Nigeria. Should private capital really be going into the same things that we've been doing which is production? Because you read things like Ivory Coast, for example, only gets about one point something billion [dollars] from cocoa exports whereas Germany processes the same cocoa into coffee and other products and gets three, four times the value. So shouldn't private capital be exploring processing? Wouldn't that be a bit more... trails off Adedayo: Yeah, yeah, I believe so. And one of the things I explored in that article was to say one of the things holding processing back (agricultural processing back) for most of the companies we have in Nigeria is because, most times, in terms of the inputs they want, in terms of quality of the inputs, in terms of the quantity of the inputs, they can't get it locally because of the way Agric is done currently. We have a lot of smallholder farmers spread across [a] vast geography. Sometimes unorganised, even in their organised state, sometimes they're still very very tiny. And as a company, you want a reliable source...Tobi: For your supply.Adedayo: Of supply because you don't want disruptions to productions, you have commitments to meet as well...Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: For your business. So one of the ways Nigerian companies are trying to overcome that is actually what they now say backward integration where they have to do everything on their own. So rather than rely on the farmers to give me the quality and the quantity I have, why don't I invest in the primary bit? And most of the challenges Nigerian farmers have, I am able to leapfrog in because, maybe, I build a warehouse, I build storage facilities and all those things. But to come to the point about shouldn't private capital be going into processing? Yes. Absolutely. I believe private capital should go into processing, not just [in] terms of raw materials. If Dufil Prima or...(that's the makers of indomie)... or PZ... If they're able to get a lot of land and they're able to improve processing, of course, a lot has to do (also) with the business environment in Nigeria for you to now say processing is competitive for other the market. Because in a situation where there's a lot of protection of industries, how do you know you're truly competitive?Tobi: Yeah Adedayo: When all you do is sell to Nigerians? So when you now start looking at processing and you discover that we're only just 200 million people and you need to export outside the country, then the protection you've enjoyed from government might actually now put you at a disadvantage in terms of being able to compete with someone from Ghana or someone from Cote d'Ivoire. The initial stage is what we're seeing currently in terms of companies themselves going into primary agriculture. Like I've said, knowledge is going to be accumulated - with the progress we are able to see over time, if they are able to not just improve the way they do their business and if they're able to really maybe fine-tune whatever models they are using because many backward integration models have failed as well.Tobi: Hmm...Adedayo: Dangote Tomato, for instance, I think they've opened it since 2016, they've not produced anything. Tobi: Is it really closed? I hear it's closed.Adedayo: It's closed; because people just think things are easy to do [simply] because you see tomato waste in some place. So I think what he did was he had a contract with the farmers that, oh, don't worry, I'll give you seedlings, I'll give you maybe fertilizers, I'll give you a bit of capital. Plant this thing for me and come and sell to me. The model failed because some of these farms...it's still the same farmers, right?Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: They're still not knowledgeable enough or anything. Then some would say, oh, they didn't get the inputs on time before the planting season or the capital on time. Some would say the agreement they had with Dangote Tomato (maybe) at the point of planting...markets change rapidly, prices change rapidly. If I signed a contract to give one ton of tomato to Dangote at five thousand naira per ton or something, for an example...Tobi: And you lock that in.Adedayo: And I lock that in and...Tobi: And then...Adedayo: And upon harvest, I discovered that the market price is seven thousand [naira]. The Nigerian farmer doesn't... Tobi: Wahala ti de [there is trouble].Adedayo: There is obviously conflict then...then how do I maximize the output? So in most cases you'll see them, (they'll go and sell to the...) they will go and sell at the open market to get... which of course I can't blame the farmer but it's one of the things you have to start thinking about even when you say, oh, I want to contract farmers to do all kinds of businesses for me. So that has actually also failed. Some companies also, [as a result of] lessons from what they've done before, they are trying to use it to start new programs or new backward integration schemes that would actually, maybe, be more favorable to them and support their type of business. For me I believe if we are able to get to an extent where a lot of these firms...a lot of them are able to do this or keep doing this, it could even force a lot of investment into processing. If I know that Olam, for instance, can supply these raw materials rather than exporting it out of Nigeria, you could have maybe private capital come into Nigeria. Even maybe local capital [would] want to go into processing because, at least, it's easier to...I mean, I can source locally from competitive producers - Olam or even if it is PZ that wants to later do that, even if they don't intend to expand processing to that scale.I feel like the developments we see could spur some interest in processing locally because you've had a lot of private interests that would come into the market and be like "okay, if there is not a reliable stream of supply for this product, do I want to commit? I don't have the capital to commit to doing primary agriculture, even the resources in terms of both money and personnel to now continue to go into that. Of course, I can't quantify the number of businesses that would likely go into that but I feel like that is one of the advantages we could derive from people who are truly interested in one of those segments but do not want to do the rest of those segments. And [if] we have private capital into primary production, it could spur a lot of more industrial processors. And I feel like in every country, someone has to do the primary production anyway...Tobi: Definitely.Adedayo: Exactly. So, even if, before you have processing or whatever in the US and everything, someone still does the primary production but I feel like we can do it to an extent that it could now generate a lot of interest from processors in Nigeria.Tobi: Okay. So let's look at the role of infrastructure in all this because...and I think you've also written about this so I'll be leaning on that a bit.Adedayo: Yeah.Tobi: I heard that line multiple times even from our chief economic officer or is it the Central Bank governor...LaughsWho say things like "oh, I asked textile manufacturers what is the problem? They said power". And then CBN is going to fix that. "Oh, I talked to toothpick manufacturers and they said power or roads or"... So what exactly are the infrastructure bottlenecks around industrialisation in Nigeria? Because what you see is that a lot of policy even around infrastructure still mimic are structural problems. For one, we know that after the colonialists left we stopped investing in railways, for example. That's a colonial infrastructure for some reasons, and even around things like road repairs or road construction, you'll still see things like ethnic fractionalization. Depending on who is financing the road, you'll see a lot more inter-state projects if it's the Federal Government and at local level you don't really see big infrastructure projects, you just see water pumps and um...Adedayo: Toilets. Tobi: And toilets. So what are the infrastructure bottlenecks and what can break the logjam?Adedayo: I like what you said around the CBN governor - [the] minister of everything - going to meet this person "what do you need?" Oh, meet that person "what do you need?" I feel like it's a bad way to go about policy because it shows that we don't even have... like a vision towards the kind of country we want or like a coherent strategy. I feel like if we have maybe our economic priorities figured out, then our infrastructure should kind of be tailored. The kind of infrastructure we build should be tailored to the kind of vision we have for the economy. So the challenge is this: we have a lot of young unemployed people, in fact, we have... one in two Nigerians...they are either unemployed or underemployed. Now this is at the moment...Tobi: One in two, is that right?Adedayo: Yeah. Underemployment and unemployment is almost 50%.Tobi: Wow!Adedayo: If I remember correctly. Okay, maybe a little over 40% anyway. But I know for youth...it's worst for youth.Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: Yeah. So the challenge is going to become even more achening in the next 20-30 years when we have a lot of people in the country. So the question is, is policy really thinking about all these things? I don't think they are thinking about it. But what should they be doing? I think they should be thinking about it and to come up with a strategy. I've seen a lot of debates around so what is really the vision for economic prosperity in Nigeria? Do we have a vision to say oh, we want to industrialize or we want a knowledge economy or we want to do anything we want to? There is no vision for that. Even when we see the economic programs that [the] government brings out, they basically want to do everything and everything they want to do still mirrors what we have currently on ground. We invest in agriculture, we invest in agriculture, we do this, we do that. We don't know what we're trying to achieve by investing in agriculture. We don't know what we're trying to achieve by investing in human capital. We're just doing everything, and, for me I think, um, prioritising... because there's a shortage of resources. And in economics we say, oh...it's essentially the study of opportunity costs because you can only have so much and you have so many things to do. So I have this farmer coming, I have textile coming, I have Nollywood coming, I have these people coming to... I mean, to come and meet me and I am trying to do different kinds of things for them. I'm not thinking in terms of what should the economy really be focusing on for the future? What will be the biggest driver of jobs or productivity gains in the economy and let me invest or build infrastructure around that for people? I think one of the reasons why Emefiele is doing that is because they've not thought about that in terms of having a coherent strategy or a vision for the Nigeria of the future, or how the economy is going to be or how we're going to create jobs for people. But in terms of infrastructure imperatives, for me, I always tend to think in terms of...I'm very very... I'm really not keen on industrialisation so to say...Tobi: Hmm.Adedayo:: 'cause l feel like... I just feel like that has passed for Nigeria. I don't know why. I keep reading a lot about industrialisation and [how] it was the biggest driver of growth in Asia. It lifted millions of people out of poverty, right?Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: And even in terms of countries that are leaning more towards services like India, we've seen that they have also been struggling economically. They've not done enough in terms of lifting a lot of people out of poverty or creating economic prosperity or the kind of growth they had in China, sort of. But in Nigeria there are just too many competing factors. For manufacturing, we say, oh, we need road infrastructure. We know road infrastructure is terrible in Nigeria. Ordinary moving goods...Tobi: Hellish.Adedayo: Hellish, right? I was seeing something... I was reading an article and it's cheaper to import from outside the country (from China) than to move goods from one end of Nigeria to another end.Tobi: It's cheaper to lay an intercontinental fibre optic cable than to take it from Lagos Island to mainland.Adedayo: Exactly. So... and I start thinking what is really the way out for businesses? Does it make any sense for businesses to go to that extent? Of course we have our ports infrastructure issue, which is also crucial to industrialisation, because I can't start a manufacturing plant in Borno and decide that Lagos is the port I'm going to be importing materials from.Tobi: Yeah. Adedayo: I don't see how that makes any sense for the country to have.Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: It makes no sense for your business to say, oh, I have a manufacturing plant in this place and I want to import through this same port in Lagos. In terms of roads too, the roads are not just bad, then you have human actors (state actors) on the road who are on the roads for safety but who are encumbrance to doing business, because they'll be asking you for money; and If you speak to businessmen they will tell you if you're moving goods - interstate in Nigeria - the kind of bribes you'll pay before you get your goods down to where you're taking them to. So, obviously, I feel like roads are also absolutely critical. In Nigeria, my major idea is, I won't say I know all the kind of infrastructure we need to build... my own is we should agree on what we really want to do. If we think industrialisation is the way to go to accommodate a lot of Nigerians into the labour force, then let's say this is what we are pursuing and let's try to build infrastructure that will make it happen. You know you need roads, you need ports, you need rail, you need those things. You need power. If it's service economy you want to build, then you start thinking differently again. You mentioned laying fibre and if you want to have a service economy you might want to start thinking about communications and having to invest in broadband and all those things. So it's basically a decision between what you want to do - you don't need to privatise everything... build rail, build...we don't even have the capacity to do it. The government doesn't have the capacity to do it and we don't have a lot of private capital to pursue that. So I think if government comes out with a coherent strategy then we'll know the kind of infrastructure that is actually critical. If you say you want a service economy, you need human capital. Even in industrialisation too, you need human capital, but the level will obviously be different. Knowledge economies will have... you can't compare service workers in the US to factory workers in Vietnam or in Bangladesh. Even if they're educated and you need human capital in manufacturing. I don't want to call it, maybe, low skilled... obviously within human capital there are different strands, some are low-skilled, some are higher-skilled in what they're doing.   So for Nigeria, I think it's something that we need to come out and decide and build the required infrastructure. Maybe we then really need to build a lot of rail. Maybe we need to just build (expand) our broadband or something and invest in more schools and in more health clinics rather than building a lot of roads going to nowhere. So I feel like in my thinking about infrastructure, and that was really the idea around the article - to say we are resources starved and we really need to prioritise. We really need to say this is what we want to do and invest in the infrastructure to make it happen. In a case where we have that, then all these distractions of the committee of Nollywood people coming to my office...Tobi: LaughsAdedayo: Or committee of cow farmers coming to my office to say, oh, this is infrastructure we need, this is infrastructure we need. Because that acts as a signal to private enterprise, to people in the economy, that this is government's focus and they will also start to explore opportunities along that line and you're not bothered about all these distractions about people doing rice farming or tomato farming or how you can help them build their own infrastructure. We can't do everything. We really need to prioritise.Tobi: Do we need more private initiatives? Because I don't know...I get squeamish a bit when big things that could really really move the lever of the economy relies a bit too much on government. Because we all know some of the problems in that area, and the slow decision-making process and everything. For example, Tolaram is building a port in Lagos, I think with Lagos state government and a few other partners. So should policy really be about making such initiatives easier and then letting private capital just do some of these things?Adedayo: For me, I think, the role of government is absolutely crucial even for whatever you want to do. I was reading about when US wanted to go to space and the kind of investment they made and how that sort of created knowledge for other industries and how they were able to build capacities along that line. And you want to think that was state-led to an extent. It's very easy to not credit some of the inventions you see to government even if it was as a result of a government grant or government-funded projects (on behalf of government). So I believe, absolutely, we really need high-quality people in power, to be honest. I think that's probably one of the challenges we have in Nigeria.Tobi: Yeah. I take that point but it's interesting you mentioned the Apollo project. Because, really, even for a big economy like the US undertaking such a huge project, what you see is that behind the veil of everything there are lots of private contractors, private companies and government just acts basically as the coordinator. So should we just let government coordinate rather than looking for money to invest and saying that "oh, because tax-to-GDP ratio is low, we can't have good roads; and because you can't raise VAT, the second Niger bridge will be slow" and things like that.Adedayo: Exactly. I absolutely agree with... I agree with that. But you know, the thing is coordination too...Tobi: Takes knowledge.Adedayo: Takes knowledge. And you need Trust. For instance, you talk about PP projects and in some cases government will take it over again, right?Tobi: Yeah, and sometimes...Adedayo: But they will not meet their commitment Tobi: Yeah. Yep.Adedayo:  So imagine you...Tobi: There is actually lots of that in oil and gas...er [industry]Adedayo: So imagine when you are now saying...you come out with a very bold policy proposal and they're saying "oh, don't worry we're just going to coordinate everything" and... I mean I'm even assuming you have the quality human capital to actually create strategies and to probably coordinate such systems and you invite private capital to "oh, let's come and do this". I feel like for Nigeria to do that, a lot of private interests will be reluctant because of the kind of history we've had. So it's not just about even knowledge, it's about trust in the ability of the government to do some of the things they want to do. So yeah, I absolutely agree with you that government can lead a lot of things and they do not necessarily have to do it themselves.Tobi: Yeah.Adedayo: They do not need to provide the capital themselves, private interests will do that on their behalf but they need to get coordination right. They need to get the strategy right initially and you need people in government to do that. Private contractors are not the people that decide what the US government should do. It's people, knowledgeable people within...Tobi: The government itself.Adedayo: The government that come up with it and now say "oh, invite private capital to pursue some of these things". It's something we need to think of. I feel like government needs to completely eradicate this mindset that they are going to fix everything because that the idea we're seeing with this loan they want to go and get. That oh, we refurbished this, we refurbished that. You want 30 billion dollars that you can't even pay for, you can't even pay for the existing level of debt.Tobi: That you probably cannot even raise.Adedayo: Exactly. Because I don't know who will give you 30 billion dollars.Tobi: I was talking to my partner on that and my first reaction was there is no way the Nigerian government can raise 30 billion dollars. This particular government.Adedayo: Exactly. I feel like it's something we're ... we really need more quality people in government. Unfortunately, we don't have enough quality human capital...maybe the few people who want to do it (they) get frustrated out of the system because of bureaucracy and all kinds of challenges we have. But I believe the starting point is getting hiring right in the public sector. To have people who would then say "private capital, come and do this or come and do that...this is what we want to do but we want you guys to lead the effort".Tobi: There's an interesting story in the news around that area recently. Adedayo: Of course.Tobi: So yeah. Getting hiring right. It's absolutely crucial even in public service. People usually think that you don't need smart minds to work in government but it's probably even a lot more important. P

The Federal Government says it has generated over N3 trillion since the commencement of Treasury Single Account (TSA) policy. Source THE SUN The solid minerals sector contributed N3.5bn to the Federation Account between January and November 2017, the Minister of Mines and Steel Development, Dr. Kayode Fayemi, has said. Source Punch The federal government said the Tin Can Island at Apapa Port in Lagos declared 160% increase in agricultural exports last year. Source Thisday The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, Chief Audu Ogbeh, said yesterday that agriculture sector created six million jobs in the last two years. Source Leadership Obaseki Signs MoU With China Harbour For Devt Of Gelegele Seaport - Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with China Harbour Engineering Company Limited (CHEC), for the development of the Gelegele Seaport and other transport infrastructure in the state. Source Leadership --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/africabusinessnews/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/africabusinessnews/support

Several items of interest are discussed this week by Peter Broida:Abe K. v. Vilsack, Dept. of Agric. (EEOC 0120141252) (sanctions denied for late FAD);Alfred S. v. Colvin, SSA (EEOC 0120140900) (Jan 6, 2017) (sanctions imposed for failure to comply with discovery orders);Dept. of Air Force, Luke AFB v. FLRA (D.C. Cir. 15-1208 Oct. 14, 2016) (nonnegotiability of matters statutorily entrusted to unreviewable agency discretion).

Several items of interest are discussed this week by Peter Broida:AFGE Local 2266 and DHS, CBP, 69 FLRA 525 (Aug. 24, 2016) (revisiting and reaffirming the law governing "flagrant misconduct" of union representatives; Scere v. DHS (NP 0752 14 157 I 1) (failure to meet condition of employment: mitigation of removal to reassignment); Walls v. VA (NP DE-0752-13-0278-I-1) (Sept. 7, 2016) (enforcement action: difficulties presented by reliance upon agency counsel's statements as evidence of compliance); Tyner v. Dept. of Agric. (NP DC-0752-16-0098-I-1) (Sept. 7, 2016) (comparison of charges of falsification/misrepresention and lack of candor);Illiana S. V. Yang, Chair, EEOC (EEOC 0120123242) (July 11, 2016) (performance appraisal lowered in reprisal for use of leave as a disability accommodation).

Several items of interest are discussed this week by Peter Broida:Report: Addressing Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity Discrimination in Federal Civilian Employment (OPM, EEOC, OSC & MSPB)Report: Administrative Leave Usage (OPM)Report: Adherence to Federal Laws Regarding Marijuana Use (OPM and the Director of National Intelligence)SSA and AFGE Local 1395, 68 FLRA 693 (6/15/2015) (past practice)DHS, C&BP v. FLRA, ___F.3d___ (D.C. Cir. 5/5/2015) (judicial review of FLRA decisions resolving exceptions to arbitration awards; sovereign immunity arguments)Bernard v. Dept. of Agric., ___F.3d___ (Fed. Cir. 6/11/2015) (use of discovery in MSPB enforcement proceedings)

Several items of interest are discussed this week by Peter Broida:Linder v. Dept. of Justice, 2014 MSPB 84 (Nov. 7, 2014) (IRA case: meaning of 5 USC 2302(b)(9), involving reprisal for the exercise of any appeal, complaint, or grievance right granted by any law, rule, or regulation)Miller v. FDIC, 2014 MSPB 83 (Nov. 6, 2014) (non-retroactive effect of 5 USC 2302(b)(9) under the 2012 WPEA)Hardy v. USPS, PH-0752-14-0515-I-1 (NP Nov. 7, 2014) (issue of sexual orientation discrimination as an affirmative defense under the Civil Rights Act and prohibited personnel practice provisions of the Reform Act)Dept. of Agric., Forest Service and NFFE Local 5300, 68 FLRA 90 (Nov. 7, 2014) (importance of properly structured exceptions)Complainant v. Dept. of Interior (EEOC 0120131556 Oct. 9, 2014) (front pay liability; assignment of complainant to a new supervisor)

Several items of interest are discussed this week by Peter Broida:Complainant v. GPO (EEOC 0120132618 Oct. 6, 2014) (the EEO process is not the place to challenge wage rates set through collective bargaining)GSA and AFGE Council of GSA Locals, 68 FLRA No. 10 (Oct. 30, 2014) (why it is important to carefully draft stipulated issues)Mangano v. VA, SF-1221-04-0234-B-9 (NP Oct. 31, 2014) (post hoc rationalizations in the context of agency clear and convincing evidence in whistleblower cases)Hawkes v. Dept. of Agric., SF-0752-13-0338-C-2 (NP Nov. 3, 2014) (recision of Board settlements and the tender back doctrine)Johnson v. VA, 2014 MSPB 82 (Oct. 30, 2014) (interplay of elections of remedies and res judicata or claim preclusion)Yee v. Dept. of Navy, 2014 MSPB 81 (Oct. 30, 2014) (organizational economics and the efficiency of the service standard applied to furloughs)

This week Peter Broida discusses seven cases:Munoz v. DHS, 2014 MSPB 66 (Aug. 20, 2014): the Board determines it will not consider disparate treatment or penalty comparability issues in defense to an indefinite suspension based on suspension of a required security clearance.Ryan v. DHS, 2014 MSPB 64 (Aug. 18, 2014): the Board decides that, unless there is an agency regulation requiring it, the Board will not consider issues of mitigation of a penalty relative to an indefinite suspension based on suspension of a required security clearance.Davis v. SSA, CB-7121-14-0015-V-1 (Aug. 21, 2014): the Board reaffirms that time-served suspensions are not appropriate in arbitration cases reviewing adverse actions, but the Board allows for the possibility that an arbitrator can properly justify a time-served suspension. The Board reviewed the existing caselaw from both the Board and the Federal Circuit, but the Board did not supply a factor analysis that arbitrators could follow when they decide when a time-served suspension is appropriate.Welhouse v. Dept. of Agric., CH-0752-12-0387-I-1 (NP Aug. 19, 2014): the Board, considering an involuntary retirement based on refusal to accept a geographical reassignment, applies the burden of proof, requiring a showing of a legitimate management justification of the reassignment, developed under Miller v. Dept. of Interior, 120 MSPR 426 (2013).Howerton v. Dept. of Defense, PH-0752-13-0292-I-1 (Aug. 21, 2014): considering a defense of disparate treatment of comparator employees, the Board acknowledges that the agency is not responsible for information on offenses unknown to the deciding official and not recorded in agency personnel files; but the Board evaluates information developed during the Board hearing and considers the assessment of the deciding official as to whether, with knowledge of the comparators' situation, the discipline of the appellant was still deemed appropriate.Butler v. Dept. of Treasury, AT-0752-11-0530-C-1 (NP Aug. 19, 2014): when the agency breached a settlement by disclosing an underlying past personnel action to appellant's prospective employer, and the appellant breached the agreement by not following the agreed-upon procedure for referring prospective employers to a designated phone number to obtain information, the Board applied what it styled as the doctrine of "unclean hands" to deny the appellant any relief.Solomon v. Dept. of Agric., ___F.3d___ (D.C. Cir. Aug. 15, 2014): reversing a grant of summary judgment to the government, the court determined that OPM policies require agencies to considering scheduling changes sought by employee to accommodate disabilities.