Podcast appearances and mentions of Marty Neumeier

This episode of Big Blend Radio's "Books & Authors" Show with Books Forward features Marty Neumeier, author of "Octavo." Follow the clues as a biophysics graduate and a retired art historian discover a mysterious manuscript in a Northern Italian town alongside works from Francesco Melzi, the last known apprentice to Leonardo da Vinci. "Octavo" is the story of da Vinci's obsession with a murder, the manuscript that proves it, and the two women racing to publish it before their violence-driven client finds them. The book comes out in October 2025, but you can get the installments "The Scarlett Files" on Substack, here: https://martyneumeier.substack.com/  Learn more about Marty and his life in design, here: https://www.martyneumeier.com/ 

In this episode, we dive deep into the value of failure—yes, failure—as a crucial tool for growth and success. Jay and Andrew discuss the difference between smart failure vs. dumb failure, how to create core values that actually shape company culture, and why embracing mistakes (the right way) leads to continuous improvement. They even have a friendly debate about how much pain you should feel when you (first) make a mistake.Book mentioned:The Brand Gap: How to Bridge the Distance Between Business Strategy and Design by Marty Neumeier 

Simple ways to improve the look of your creations without hiring a designer.My free Clients From Content: 1-Page Masterclass: https://fortheinterested.com/subscribe-yt/8 things you'll learn in this episode:02:00: How to audit your current designs in 10 minutes05:00: How to choose fonts and colors11:00: An unexpected place to find design inspiration17:00: The 3 biggest decisions to make when designing your brand25:00: The one mistake that will doom your rebrand30:00: How to design your brand when you're not sure what your brand even is32:00: How to decide when to rebrand37:00: A huge list of design tools to help youShow Notes: Tools: Design: https://www.figma.com/Canva: https://www.canva.com/Photos/Visuals: https://visualelectric.com/Fonts: https://fonts.google.com/ Fonts: https://fontshare.com/Fonts: https://www.myfonts.com/Fonts: https://www.latinotype.com/Colors: https://colorai.app/Colors: https://www.realtimecolors.com/Copy: https://www.typingmind.com/Moodboard: https://www.playbook.com/Mind Mapping: https://whimsical.com/Headshots/Photography: https://photoai.com/Newsletter: https://kit.com/Website Design: https://www.framer.com/Books: The Brand Gap by Marty Neumeier: https://amzn.to/4icgIIKBuilding a StoryBrand by Donald Miller: https://amzn.to/4ik2dT9Thinking with Type by Ellen Lupton: https://amzn.to/3VoGyiSTo Connect with Nate Kadlac: Website: https://www.kadlac.com/ To connect with Josh Spector:Newsletter: https://fortheinterested.com/subscribe/ Skill Sessions: https://joshspector.com/sessions/Consulting: https://joshspector.com/consulting/Twitter: https://twitter.com/jspectorApply to be a guest on the show: https://joshspector.com/questions/Intro Music Provided By Uppbeat

Marty Neumeier is as written many books on design and brand as one of the foremost thinkers on how to build a brand. His books include, The Brand Gap, Zag, The Designful Company, The 46 Rules of Genius and more. Do you have a brand or a logo? Listen to this discussion between host Bryan Elliott and Marty. Special Thanks to our Sponsor WHOOP!Use my special link and get a great deal on a new WHOOP 4.0.WEAR IT ANY-WEARComfortable enough to wear non-stop thanks to new, durable SuperKnit bands, but flexibly designed to be worn off your wrist in new WHOOP Body apparel.WAKE UP AT THE OPTIMAL TIMESet a haptic alarm that gently vibrates to wake you at the optimal time based on your sleep needs and cycles.MONITOR YOUR HEALTHA robust sensor suite allows you to monitor your key vital signs: Blood oxygen levels, skin temperature readings, and heart rate metrics.GET MORE ACCURATE DATA5 LEDs and 4 photodiodes capture your data more often than most wearables, providing best-in-class accuracy validated in lab studies and with third-party testing.Special Thanks to our Sponsor Inside Tracker!It's been about 7 years but feels like yesterday when I think about the time I was really struggling with health. All of a sudden I was getting serious headaches and didn't know why…My friend Rob Wolff who wrote the book Wired to Eat turned me on to InsideTracker but to be honest I didn't follow thru and spent the next 4 years trying to figure things out on my own by seeing over a dozen doctors and specialists. I probably wasted at least $20,000 in time and medical expenses with nothing to show for it. Earlier this year another friend suggested InsideTracker again and I signed up. It was so easy. A specialist came to my house to took my blood for a blood panel test that measured almost 50 health markers. About a week later I had a full report across all of the important categories.How much would you pay to have a roadmap to feeling your best? Well, promise InsiderTracker costs a lot less and I guarantee it will be one of the best investments you make for yourself. With annual fees starting at $150 this is a no-brainer. Just go to InsideTracker.com and give it a try.Support the show

In this episode of the Brand Design Masters podcast, host Phillip VanDusen welcomes Robert Smith, an internationally recognized branding expert, professor, and author. They discuss the importance of investing time in oneself rather than focusing on transient technical skills, emphasizing the value of creativity, peer interaction, and mental health. Robert shares insights from his latest book 'Stop Looking for Zebras', which guides creative professionals on achieving long-term career success. Key topics include the relevance of human-driven creativity in the face of AI advancements, the significance of networking and mentorship, and strategies for maintaining passion and confidence in the creative industry.#branddesign #creativecareers #creativity #graphicdesignEpisode Sponsored by: WIX STUDIO: https://wixstudio.comROBERT SMITH Book: "Stop Looking for Zebras": https://a.co/d/54KQRlPThinkSmith Website: https://www.think-smith.com/00:00 The Best Investment for Longevity in the Industry00:25 Introduction to the Brand Design Masters Podcast00:42 Meet Robert Smith: Branding Expert and Author01:50 The Journey of Writing 'Stop Looking for Zebras'03:49 Teaching Design: Beyond Technical Skills08:33 Addressing Self-Confidence in Creative Careers12:47 The Impact of AI and Automation on Design17:58 Strategies for Creative Professionals to Stand Out21:21 Marty Neumeier's Packaging Success22:32 The Reality Behind Rockstar Designers23:55 Investing in Yourself Post-COVID26:35 The Power of Mastermind Groups27:41 The Importance of Networking35:45 Recognizing Career Transformations37:06 Career Goals and Bear Traps40:28 Conclusion and Final Thoughts________________________________________WEBSITEhttps://www.philipvandusen.comBRAND•MUSE NEWSLETTER  https://www.philipvandusen.com/museCREATIVE PROFESSIONAL COACHINGhttps://philipvandusen.com/oneononeBRAND CONSULTINGhttps://philipvandusen.com/brand-consultingBRAND STRATEGY 101 COURSEhttps://philipvandusen.com/bs101YOUTUBEhttps://www.youtube.com/c/philipvandusen LINKEDINhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/philipvandusen/THREADShttps://www.threads.net/@philipvandusen FACEBOOKhttps://www.facebook.com/philipvandusen.agency/INSTAGRAMhttps://www.instagram.com/philipvandusen/____________________________________Philip VanDusen is a branding consultant and the owner of a brand strategy and design agency based in New Jersey. Philip is a highly accomplished creative executive and expert in brand strategy, graphic design, marketing and creative management. Philip provides design, branding, marketing, career and business advice to creative professionals, entrepreneurs and companies on building successful brands for themselves and the clients and customers they serve.

In a very special 50th episode, author, designer, and brand adviser Marty Neumeier joins Greg Daake to discuss the importance of prioritizing modesty over posturing.

Learn how to grow a personal brand with these tips! ******

Danielle spoke with Stephen Houraghan, brand strategist, consultant, CEO and Founder of Brand Master Academy and BrandBuildr.ai. He hosts The Brand Master Podcast, featuring guests like Seth Godin and Marty Neumeier.With a background in business and finance, he later gained qualifications in design and marketing, founding the Iconic Fox Agency, and offering brand strategy and creative services globally. Stephen has contributed to publications such as Hubspot, Marketo, Creative Bloq and has appeared as a guest on countless industry podcasts and summits.KEY TAKEAWAYSStephen talks about his early career in finance and stockbroking, moving into creating design and how he pivoted into branding. All of this experience has given him a great understanding of business and how to speak the right language to business owners.Artificial intelligence is already a big part of life and Stephen speaks about his AI-powered platform, BrandBuildr and how it streamlines the brand development process and enhances strategy outcomes.Stephen explains how the last four to five years have been spent on building the corporate brand of Brand Master Academy and how he became obsessed with the idea of being consumer driven and consumer led.BEST MOMENTS‘I didn't want to go back to a job, I wanted to work for myself. That led me down the road to asking, if there are all these other designers in this space, how can I convince my prospects to choose me over them? It's a fundamental question at the centre point of first positioning and then broader brand strategy that I didn't even know existed.'‘I knew I needed to get my ideas on my concepts out there and I struggled with the idea of, why would I put all of this in an article if people are just going to take it? It was a real struggle to overcome that mental challenge of look, this is how the industry works now, this is how the world works.'‘As we venture into the world of AI, that human connection and that ability to connect with your audience and to provide them that human guidance and that arm around their shoulder, that's going to become increasingly important in the coming years and it's a big part of what we do beyond the steps and the processes.'‘When we sit down with our clients, what ingredients we get is dependent on the questions we ask. The better the question, the better the ingredient. The better the ingredients, the better the outcome.'ABOUT THE HOST - DANIELLE CLARKEDanielle Clarke is a Brand Strategist and spends her time consulting and working with health and wellness business owners to help them attract and retain their ideal customers.GRAB YOU 3 ACTIONABLE STEPS FOR BRAND GROWTH: https://danielle-clarke.ck.page/b1043e5d05WORK WITH DANIELLE TO BUILD THE BRAND STRATEGIES YOUR BUSINESS NEEDS TO GROW: https://calendly.com/d/48p-6ck-vy4CONNECT WITH DANIELLE ON LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-clarke-brand-strategy-consultant/SUPPORT THE SHOW: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/danielleclarke This show was brought to you by: The Media Insiders Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of the Thought Leadership Leverage podcast, host Peter Winick sits down with Robert Hargrove, founder and CEO of Masterful Coaching, co-founder of the Harvard Leadership Project, and author of ten influential books, including "Masterful Coaching." This insightful discussion explores the evolving landscape of thought leadership, focusing on the shifting dynamics in publishing and the rise of social media. Robert shares his unique perspective on how publishing has transformed over the years. During a recent visit to a Barnes & Noble, he noticed that most books in business and politics were authored by thought leaders. However, when he browsed LinkedIn, he observed a wave of recycled content from decades ago, repackaged as something new. This led to a conversation about how thought leadership has moved from long-form content, such as books, to short-form content on social media. While social media provides rapid access to ideas, Robert and Peter discuss the significant difference in depth and quality between reading a book and scanning a LinkedIn post. Defining thought leadership, Robert describes it as presenting a big idea that is eye-opening, brain-tingling, and paradigm- shifting. He emphasizes that the idea doesn't need to be entirely original but should offer a new perspective or improve upon existing concepts. He uses Marty Neumeier's "Brand Flip" as an example of how traditional ideas can be approached in a fresh way.  The conversation delves into the nuances of thought leadership on social media, addressing the importance of civil discourse and respectful disagreement. Robert stresses that engaging with others' ideas and leaving thoughtful comments can foster a healthy exchange and build new relationships. He also discusses his journey into podcasting and the impact of verbal interactions on the audience, highlighting how even non-groundbreaking conversations can spark meaningful thoughts among listeners. Finally, Robert and Peter share their favorite podcasts and writers, such as Malcolm Gladwell and Adam Grant, comparing their unique styles in both book and podcast formats. Tune in to explore the evolution of thought leadership and gain insights into how to navigate and succeed in this changing  landscape. Three Key Takeaways: • Shift from Long-Form to Short-Form Thought Leadership: The landscape of thought leadership has shifted from long-form content, like books, to short-form content on social media platforms. While this change offers accessibility and immediacy, it can lead to a reduction in depth and quality. Robert Hargrove discusses how, in the past, a book was a hallmark of thought leadership, but today, many thought leaders focus on shorter, more digestible content. This shift requires a balanced approach to maintain quality while reaching a broader audience. • Redefining Thought Leadership: Thought leadership is not just about creating original ideas; it's about presenting concepts in a way that is eye-opening, paradigm-shifting, or improving upon existing ideas. Robert emphasizes that thought leadership can be delivered through various mediums, including speeches, podcasts, and social media, not just books. He cites Marty Neumeier's "Brand Flip" as an example of presenting traditional ideas with a fresh perspective, highlighting that thought leadership can be achieved without a book. •Civility and Respect in Social Media Discourse: The episode explores the dynamics of thought leadership on social media, where it can be challenging to maintain civility and respect in discussions. Robert suggests that engaging in respectful disagreement, seeking dialogue, and contributing thoughtful comments are crucial for meaningful exchanges. He underscores that these interactions can help build relationships and open doors to new audiences. This approach fosters a collaborative environment where different viewpoints are valued and respected. Whether you publish your content in a book, on social media, or other medium it has to be clear and engaging.  Peter Winick and the team at Thought Leadership leverage can help you develop a variety of material for any medium!

Tiago Faria –Digital Business Mentor in the “Help Industry”About meI help experts do the most fun marketing they'll ever do and attract the most presold leads they'll ever get. Oh, and by the way, I do it through podcast guesting.Target AudienceMy expertise primarily caters to coaches, consultants, service providers, or freelancers who rely on trust and expertise to sell high-ticket products or services.AchievementsOver my 15 years in the world of marketing and digital business, I have had the pleasure of:Working at Google's European headquarters in Dublin for 8 years, as a Google Ads specialist and consultant for some of the biggest companies in Europe and the Middle EastCompleted a 120 day challenge on YouTube in 2021, creating 120 videos in 120 consecutive days (this after interviewing more than 60 entrepreneurs and experts on my podcast, including Chris Do, Miles Beckler, Marty Neumeier, Mike Michalowicz, Blair Enns, Pia Silva, and others)Booked 67 podcasts in only 4 months, being featured as a guest on top 1-2% podcasts like Podcasting Your Global Career, Straight Talk No Sugar Added Podcast, and Marketing SpeakSuggested QuestionsWhy podcast guesting and not any other marketing method or media?How do I pitch myself to podcasts without sounding sleazy?I'm not sure I can be an interesting guest… is this really for me?How do I make sure I can convert listeners into clients?How does this integrate into my overall marketing strategy?How much time does it take to get results?Just for FunOutside of the world of online business, I wouldn't trade anything for time with my wife, Natasha, and my 3-year-old daughter, Kira. In my downtime, I am continually learning new things (mainly through audiobooks and podcasts). I've already traveled to more than 22% of the world (according to TripAdvisor...), and my next goal is to visit all of the 50 US states (9/50).Connect with Mehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/tiagofaria/The Doctor offers a complimentary strategy session at TheDoctorOfDigital@pm.me.https://swellai.com/?via=mick-the-doctor-of-digitalOn Track Ian Hunterhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1789523044?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_WOLGDN9AD6UWV1H4EG8OBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?Mick, The Doctor of Digital, Smith mick.smith@wsiworld.comBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?https://burning-america.comAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/G-Mick-Smith/e/B0B59X5R79Also at Barnes & Noble, Walmart, and TargetLeave a message for The Doctor of Digital:https://podinbox.com/thedoctorofdigitalpodcastInstagram: burningamericacommunityPatreon burningamericacommunity:https://www.patreon.com/SmithConsultingWSITheDoctorofDigitalPodcastListen, subscribe, share, and positively review The Aftermath:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aftermath-the-epidemic-of-divorce-custody-and-healing/id1647001828Substack:https://micksmith.substack.com/Commercials Voice Talent ||https://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-1-commercialsNarratives Voice Talenthttps://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-2-narrativesDo you want a free competitive analysis for your business?https://marketing.wsiworld.com/free-competitive-analysis?utm_campaign=Mick_Smith_Podcast&utm_source=SpreakerMake an Appointment:https://www.picktime.com/TheDoctorOfDigitalBe sure to subscribe, like, & review The Doctor of Digital™ PodcastSign up for the Doctor Up Your Life courseFacebook || Instagram || Twitter || LinkedIn || YouTubehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/g-mick-smith-24495127Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-doctor-of-digital-gmick-smith-phd--1279468/support.

2:12 - Why she became a self-pay patient after two medical bankruptcies. 9:22 - How to navigate self-pay by removing fear-based thinking (I must have health insurance) and negotiate with every single healthcare service you pay for. 11:02 - The freedom that comes with leaving health insurance behind and embracing self pay.11:58 - How hospital foundations and patient pay advocates have emerged to embrace (somewhat) self-pay.12:49 - As a high earner, she does not use these foundations, but negotiates to pay her bill. She's also a member of Christian Healthcare Ministries (CHM),  a health cost sharing ministry. 13:20 - How CHM works - you become a member, pay a monthly fee. When a healthcare episode arises, you access CHM to get your healthcare bills paid, or shared. 15:14 - Sloane details the self-pay patient journey, how self-pay doesn't trickle through to all areas of the healthcare industry, and how to educate each sector about self-pay.22:50 - How to ask for the self-pay rate as a patient.25:00 - Where Sloane negotiated for care from one provider that was 75% less than what another provider quoted. 26:35 - How physicians are fairly  knowledgeable about self pay, but those in their business offices are not. They are trained to work with insurance. She packs her "patience and grace" to ask them to do something that is unusual. 29:25 - Tom pivots the conversation to how Sloan copes with a diagnosis of a terminal illness (at age 23). She doesn't let it define her, and looks at her condition as a chronic illness. 30:23 - How Sloane and Tom agree that it is the dying person's responsibility to prepare the living  for their own death. 34:14 - Why doctors ignore DNRs (hint: it has to do with litigation). 35:10 - Tom laments that modern Stoics don't talk suicide the way the original Stoics did - it is the last vestige of our wills. 37:50 - Sloane shares her grandmother's advice about friendship: you really only need 6 friends in life; 3 on one side of the casket, and 3 on the other. 38:10 - The extreme rarity of having one really close friend. 40:00 - Shifting to business, how she found herself in Nashville's health tech scene. Pre-pandemic, it was crowded, healthy and vibrant. Backed by Nashville and nationwide private equity and venture capital firms, and also supported by local institutions like the Nashville Entrepreneur Center, Nashville Healthcare Council, local family funds, and others, founders were getting a lot of support. 41:13 - When founder-led companies become responsible for creating shareholder value. The trajectory to create shareholder value is a big change, and she learned how sales and marketing played such a significant role in creating that value. 42:35 - Creation of her secret sauce: the strategy/methodology/execution of marketing to build to exit, and understanding how to make quick pivots as needed. 44:02 - What healthcare doesn't talk about post-pandemic: the rise in chronic disease, chronic care. Fortunately, many tech companies have come forward to begin to address this issue, but the exits are not as speedy as they once were.45:29 - The role of a strategic story in an exit, and how your fly paper is still whether or not you created shareholder value. But healthcare needs to re-think intellectual property.47:00 - The other way to re-frame and look at shareholder value: the customer relationships you create. If you can own a swim lane in the market, and really own it well, that has enormous value. 48:16 - How mergers often destroy value by devaluing the brand and the culture. 51:24 - Who shaped her marketing philosophy, Marty Neumeier, who was Steve Jobs' brand mentor. She believes, as Marty maintains, that a brand isn't what you say it is, it's what your customer says it is. 54:17 - How she loves founder-led companies, and how she gets so much more out of it than what she put into it. Her emotional paycheck gets cashed every time she sees someone get a check they never thought they would get.      

Send us a Text Message."Follow the process, follow the methods, and then you're not going to fail in your project. You're going to fail throughout your project. Small constant failure is part of what it is.”Fabio OliveiraIn this episode you'll hear about:Defining innovation in 2024: Breaking down the definition of innovation and its associated expectations and misconceptions and understanding how innovation fits differently into the contexts of large and small organisationsManaging innovation and idea generation: Methods for accelerating employee engagement, investment and idea generation while maintaining order and process in receiving and processing innovation ideasConducting research in innovation: How to gather the necessary information for innovation, keep focus on relevant subject matter and shape project briefs effectively to ensure targeted research effortsPhysical and digital integration: Exploring innovative experimentation blending physical and digital elements and what we can expect from the future of in-store/retail technology Maintaining a wholesight organisation view: The importance of staying connected to your organisation's strategic direction and challenges through innovation and keeping perspective within your role to ensure effective and meaningful work that aligns to business goals and addresses relevant problemsKey linksKmart Australia https://www.kmart.com.au/Amazon Walkout Tech https://aws.amazon.com/just-walk-out/RFID https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/gadgets/high-tech-gadgets/rfid.htmDr Tim Baker framework https://www.mindtools.com/a7em9zg/the-five-conversations-frameworkBasecamp's Shape Up Methodology https://basecamp.com/shapeupDesignful Company by Marty Neumeier https://www.martyneumeier.com/the-designful-companyAbout our guestFabio Oliveira (https://au.linkedin.com/in/fabiosoliveira) is an innovation leader specialising in establishing innovation practices within large companies. Known for his ability to build multidisciplinary teams from the ground up, he has successfully cemented innovation strategies at prominent Australian brands – notably Kmart and WorkSafe Victoria – delivering significant outcomes.Currently the Head of Innovation and Service Design at Kmart, Fabio is leading several initiatives that are building the future of store operations and customer experience.About our hostOur host, Chris Hudson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-hudson-7464254/), is a Teacher, Experience Designer and Founder of business transformation coaching & consultancy Company Road (www.companyroad.co).Chris considers himself incredibly fortunate to have worked with some of the world's most ambitious and successful companies, including Google, Mercedes-Benz, Accenture (Fjord) and Dulux, to name a small few. He continues to teach with University of Melbourne in Innovation, and Academy Xi in CX, Product Management, Design Thinking and Service Design and mentors many business leaders internatioFor weekly updates and to hear about the latest episodes, please subscribe to The Company Road Podcast at https://companyroad.co/podcast/

Quick—what's your personal brand? Don't worry if you don't know (well, maybe worry a little) because in this Silver Dollar episode of Stay Paid, we're explaining not only what a personal brand is but also how you can strategically build one that inspires trust and loyalty. If you do know yours, are you sure it's what you think it is? Join us to understand the nature of a personal brand and how an unmanaged one can silently destroy your business, discover a powerful exercise that will clarify your unique value proposition into a single, compelling sentence, and get three resources you can leverage to enhance and promote your professional identity.

Danielle spoke with Andy Starr, Managing partner of Level C, an education program teaching principles of modern brand to business professionals, which he co-founded with international brand expert and author Marty Neumeier. Andy helps clients outmanoeuvre competition and conditions in their markets, and make marketing, advertising & PR content work better, land stronger, and drive real results.KEY TAKEAWAYSDisruption is something that Andy is really passionate about so he and Danielle talked about what this really means and why it's so important.Andy explained to Danielle how his collaboration with Marty Neumeier began and how Level C originated from his personal circumstances at the time.Branding hasn't always been Andy's thing. He's a trained musician, majored in English Literature, worked in finance and studied law before coming to the world of brand.Andy spoke about how his branding classes with Marty work, why they are different from traditional teaching and how they teach you how to think about brand.BEST MOMENTS‘These days, if you're a brand, if you're a business and you're trying to stand out and you think that just being different will get you there, we make an argument that it won't, that it's not enough'.‘Creative thinking, strategic thinking, design thinking - more and more so called experts and coaches and mentors out there, they've been doing the whole how to do thing - how to do this, how to use this template. More and more of them have been trying to copy us now and it's kind of weird because they end up almost completely contradicting what they were doing just a couple of years ago'‘I won't work with anyone now who won't acknowledge that this is what I'm doing, who won't allow me to have the opportunity to teach them how to be a great client, teach them where I'm coming from right now'.‘We believe that creativity is more valuable in problem solving than just being more productive, but it needs more people who are able to think about what they do before they do it, while they do it, and after they do it'.ABOUT THE HOST - DANIELLE CLARKEDanielle Clarke is a Brand Strategist and University Lecturer. She spends her time consulting and working with health and wellness business owners to help them attract and retain their ideal customers.GRAB YOU 3 ACTIONABLE STEPS FOR BRAND GROWTH: https://danielle-clarke.ck.page/b1043e5d05WORK WITH DANIELLE TO BUILD THE BRAND STRATEGIES YOUR BUSINESS NEEDS TO GROW: https://calendly.com/d/48p-6ck-vy4CONNECT WITH DANIELLE ON LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-clarke-brand-strategy-consultant/SUPPORT THE SHOW: https://www.buymeacoffee.com/danielleclarke This show was brought to you by: The Media Insiders Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tiago Faria –Digital Business Mentor in the Help IndustryAbout meI'm a business mentor in the “Help Industry” with a unique "Anti-Marketing" approach. After working at the EU headquarters of Google for 8 years, I have been simplifying marketing and business to its core, and I truly believe you already have everything you need in your world to grow a sustainable and fun business. Target AudienceMy expertise primarily caters to entrepreneurs who want to help people online, and solve problems for which these people are willing to pay a premium to solve. I understand the challenges they face every day in finding these people online, and I offer easy-to-implement solutions, using only what they already have in their world.AchievementsOver my 14 years in the world of marketing and digital business, I have had the pleasure of:Having helped hundreds of Portuguese (and recently international) entrepreneurs through my courses, workshops and programs since 2020Working at Google's European headquarters in Dublin for 8 years, as a Google Ads specialist and consultant for some of the biggest companies in Europe and the Middle EastCompleted a 120 day challenge in YouTube in 2021, creating 120 videos in 120 consecutive days (this after interviewing more than 60 entrepreneurs and experts on my podcast, including Chris Do, Miles Beckler, Marty Neumeier, Mike Michalowicz, Blair Enns, Pia Silva, and others)Just for FunOutside of the world of online business, I wouldn't trade anything for time with my wife, Natasha, and my 3-year-old daughter, Kira. In my downtime I am continually learning new things (mainly through audiobooks and podcasts). I've already traveled to more than 22% of the world (according to TripAdvisor...), and my next goal is to visit all of the 50 US states (9/50).Connect with Mehttps://tiagofaria.pt/https://www.linkedin.com/in/tiagofaria/https://www.facebook.com/tiagofariapontoptThe Doctor offers a complimentary website analysis, or a custom software open door session with Amplifi Labs: mick.smith@amplifilabs.com.https://swellai.com/?via=mick-the-doctor-of-digitalOn Track Ian Hunterhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/1789523044?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_WOLGDN9AD6UWV1H4EG8OBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?Mick, The Doctor of Digital, Smith mick.smith@wsiworld.comBurning America: In the Best Interest of the Children?https://burning-america.comAmazon: https://www.amazon.com/G-Mick-Smith/e/B0B59X5R79Also at Barnes & Noble, Walmart, and TargetLeave a message for The Doctor of Digital:https://podinbox.com/thedoctorofdigitalpodcastInstagram: burningamericacommunityPatreon burningamericacommunity:https://www.patreon.com/SmithConsultingWSITheDoctorofDigitalPodcastListen, subscribe, share, and positively review The Aftermath:https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-aftermath-the-epidemic-of-divorce-custody-and-healing/id1647001828Substack:https://micksmith.substack.com/Commercials Voice Talent ||https://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-1-commercialsNarratives Voice Talenthttps://www.spreaker.com/user/7768747/track-2-narrativesDo you want a free competitive analysis for your business?https://marketing.wsiworld.com/free-competitive-analysis?utm_campaign=Mick_Smith_Podcast&utm_source=SpreakerMake an Appointment:https://www.picktime.com/TheDoctorOfDigitalBe sure to subscribe, like, & review The Doctor of Digital™ PodcastSign up for the Doctor Up Your Life courseFacebook || Instagram || Twitter || LinkedIn || YouTubehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/g-mick-smith-24495127Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-doctor-of-digital-gmick-smith-phd--1279468/support.

In this episode, Sean chats with Chris Do about genius personal branding tips! ****** Join us for the #1 video marketing conference in the US for entrepreneurs

Jay and Andrew talk about rigging, how money eases the way, making our environment serve us, relationships vs profit, establishing value through the right comparison, and much more.Books mentioned:Alchemy: The Surprising Power of Ideas That Don't Make Sense by Rory Sutherland.The Brand Gap: How to Bridge the Distance Between Business Strategy and Design by Marty Neumeier.New Manufacturing Challenge: Techniques for Continuous Improvement by Kiyoshi Suzaki.

While a product's taste may be amazing, if its packaging doesn't grab its target audience, it risks staying unnoticed on the shelf.So, how can you ensure that your packaging is as enticing to the eyes as your product is to the taste buds? The challenge lies in effectively translating the taste and narrative of a product into its visual identity, and often, this connection is overlooked, resulting in lacklustre packaging not speaking to its target consumer.  To address this, we're excited to introduce you to the brand creation experts at BuxtonThreeTwo, Hal Tyler and James Bettinson, also known as the Tastehead brand design partners. With a wealth of experience creating challenger brands from the ground up, they talk us through how to bring truly disruptive brands to life. In order to nail your packaging, first we discuss how critical it is to spend time positioning your brand, carefully understanding who your target consumer is and how they want to be communicated to. Join us as we explore the importance of precise product positioning before diving into the creative process, how working with the development chef allows for design work that pulls taste into the visual realm, and the pivotal role of storytelling in crafting a successful brand.If you enjoy this episode, please consider subscribing.If you have any suggestions for future episode topics, please email them to hello@tastehead.comFollow Brandt and Micah:https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandt-maybury/https://www.linkedin.com/in/micah-carr-hill-34a91811/Visit https://www.tastehead.com/ to learn moreFollow BuxtonThreeTwo:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hal-tyler-683a3387/https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-bettinson-937630158/https://buxtonthreetwo.com/Links Mentioned:David Ogilvy - https://www.ogilvy.com/#work Marty Neumeier - https://www.martyneumeier.com/Rory Sutherland - https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland/ Black and Decker - https://www.blackanddecker.co.uk/DeWalt - https://www.dewalt.co.uk/ Seabrook crisps - https://www.seabrookcrisps.com/

Minter Dialogue with Marty Neumeier To start off this new year, and just before I get back into the swing of brand new episodes for 2024, I wanted to re-release this wonderful conversation with Marty Neumeier (MDE314). Where so many people are needing to have a sense of belonging and find meaningfulness, working for a meaningful brand is one way to find fulfilment. Marty is a world recognised expert on branding, best-selling author of books such as The Brand Gap, The Brand Flip and MetaSkills. At the time of recording this interview, he had recently published a ‘business thriller' called, "Scramble, How agile strategy can build epic brands in record time." He's also director and CEO of the Liquid branding agency. In this conversation with Marty, we talked about the importance of having a designer mindset in business and the challenge of building a superior brand in today's tech-infused world. If you've got comments or questions you'd like to see answered, send your email or audio file to nminterdial@gmail.com; or you can find the show notes and comment on minterdial.com. If you liked the podcast, please take a moment to go over to Apple Podcasts or your favourite podcast channel, to rate/review the show. Otherwise, you can find me @mdial on Twitter.

In this episode, I had the privilege of sitting down with the exceptional Craig Martin, a renowned business coach and serial entrepreneur. We delved deep into the valuable insights and strategies he's accrued from transitioning into the coaching world and guiding entrepreneurs to success. We tackle Craig's coaching approach, emphasizing the need to dive deep into business challenges. We explore the vital role of branding and the process of developing tailored frameworks for clients. The conversation branches into the significance of discipline, the essence of seeking valuable information, branding's emotional aspect, and the evolving landscape with the introduction of AI. A bit about Craig:Serial entrepreneur, business coach/consultant, and recovering advertising executive, helping entrepreneurs build 7+ figure businesses and exit to freedom for the past two decades. Now on a mission to help 1 million entrepreneurs make an impact. Where to find Craig:https://acclimatedminds.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/craig-martin-b068824b/ Other Links: https://www.instagram.com/iamcraigmartin/ Books Mentioned: The E Myth by Michael E. Gerber Good to Great by Jim Collins Brand Flip by Marty Neumeier The Brand Gap by Marty Neumeier

Danielle interviewed Ezequiel Abramzon, is a global creative leader and brand strategy consultant with 30+ years of experience in creativity, branding, innovation and entrepreneurship. Ezequiel is founder of Lalo, which helps take startups with brand strategy. They talk about how branding is a key part of a startup's birth.Ezequiel became a global creative leader while working as an executive at The Walt Disney Company for 22 years, where he helped develop brands such as Disney, Marvel, Star Wars, Pixar in Latin America and Europe. After many years of living a corporate life, Ezequiel is back in the independent world to help transform your business through brand building.KEY TAKEAWAYSEzequiel was always a fan of Disney and told his teachers at high school he would work there one day. When Ezequiel joined Disney he was responsible for creative marketing. From this he led hundreds of people and built 8 figure businesses within Disney where he found himself interacting with entrepreneurs, which led to the next phase of his career. He has completed countless trainings on creativity, innovation and branding, including Brand Architect certification with Marty Neumeier's Level C.Ezequiel knew that when his journey with Disney came to an end he would either be an entrepreneur or work with entrepreneurs.Having a brand strategy helps startup's navigate the early part of their journey and marry it with the long term perspective for their company. Ezequiel believes that startup B2B's can learn so much from long established B2C brands. They may be different on the surface but the essence is very similar. BEST MOMENTSDiscussing how Lalo helps entrepreneurs - ‘I always say I'm in the business of clarity and confidence. Strategic clarity leads to operational confidence. Because if you are strategically clear you know who you are and what you need to mean to people”‘Unless you have hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars you can't rush brand. If you are starting your company unless you have all that power you have to trust time'‘Demand excellence in everything you do. Quality on your onboarding, the product and your relationships. Understand what quality means for your business and customer'.‘Having no budget or lack of resources is not an excuse for not pursuing greater quality. If your website looks crappy it's not because you don't have money, it's because you didn't figure out how to do it right'.Ezequiel LinkedIn Twitter InstagramABOUT THE HOST - DANIELLE CLARKEDanielle Clarke is a Brand Strategist and University Lecturer. She spends her time working with health and wellness business owners to help them attract their ideal customers.GRAB YOU FREE E-BOOK: https://danielle-clarke.ck.page/b1043e5d05CONNECT WITH DANIELLE ON LINKEDIN: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-clarke-brand-strategy-consultant/This show was brought to you by The Media Insiders Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Marty Neumeier is someone who literally wrote the book on branding, in fact, he's written numerous books about it. He is an author, designer, and brand adviser whose mission is to bring the principles and processes of design to business. He has worked closely with innovative companies such as Apple, Netscape, Sun Microsystems, HP, Adobe, Google, and Microsoft to help advance their brands and cultures. Today he serves as Director of Transformation for Liquid Agency in Silicon Valley, and travels extensively as a workshop leader and speaker on the topics of design, brand, and innovation.

What is the importance of branding? Whether you're a solopreneur or part of a design firm, having a brand makes you memorable. But good branding doesn't happen by throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping something sticks—it's strategic and thoughtful. My friend and branding expert, Corey Fuller, is sharing that with us on this episode! We touched on everything from naming a business to finding the perfect typography. This conversation is an incredible resource for anyone looking to brand a new business or rebrand an existing one. In this episode, you will be able to:Uncover the most critical components of branding.Learn the business branding mistakes you must avoid!Discover the importance of branding whether you're a solopreneur or part of a firm.Full Show Notes Here

Wes Henstock is the Hip-hop brand strategist. Coming up in the world of fashion and music, he's worked with folks like Damon John, and brands like Armani Exchange, DKNY, and Tommy Hilfiger. Wes is a Founder and CEO of Confid3ntial, a brand design agency and he is also an instructor at Level C, a brand strategy educational platform from the legendary Marty Neumeier.In this episode, we dive into his journey and key pieces of wisdom for anyone interested in the world of brand. WARNING: Explicit, entertaining, and educationalIn this episode:The importance of strategy in the creative processThe power of strategy show & tellMisconceptions about brand strategy Workshops are critical to the alignment of the componyTips on running an amazing workshop The Obituary TechniqueThe purpose of having a purposeHow strategy should be like Hip-HopChallenges in the healthcare industryWork with Howie:Healthy Brand ConsultingConnect with Howie: LinkedIn TwitterInstagramTikTokHow I can Help You Boost your personal brand & charisma: Subscribe to Legend Letters Download free brand strategy guides 1:1 Personal brand coaching

Benj Miller chats with marketing legend, author and co-founder of Level C, Marty Neumeier. In this episode they discuss: - The definition of growth: When growth becomes the enemy - The role of business in a divided society - The meaning of brands when tribal beliefs become a substitute for truth This episode is sponsored by The 261.  Start your day with clarity! As leaders, we have countless things on our mind: things we need to do, things we're not doing, problems we need to solve, new exciting ideas––all jotted down in that worn out mental notebook we keep in our heads.  But, sometimes leaders and entrepreneurs simply need to step away from the mental clutter––sometimes we don't need the notebook, we just need a sticky note––a simple reminder along the way to help us gain clarity and control of our business.  That's why we created a new FREE resource called The 261. As you may know, there are 261 work days in the calendar year. So, we have mapped out the entire year with daily micro thoughts and micro actions––sticky notes––to help keep the ball moving forward in your personal life as a leader and for the sake of your business. If you want to start your day with clarity and receive a short, helpful thought to jumpstart your leadership, please go to The261.com and sign up! References: MartyNeumeier.com

Welcome to the special 100th edition of the Brand Design Masters Podcast! We have to celebrate our wins, and reaching the 100th episode of a podcast is a huge win. It's been a great ride so far and we would never have been this successful if it wasn't for our cavalcade of amazing guests. Folks like Chris Do, Chris Ducker, Roberto Blake, Marty Neumeier, Mauro Porcini, Michael Janda, Amy London and many, many more. In this episode I discuss:•    What's worked in the podcast so far•    What hasn't worked so well, and some lessons learned•    How the BDM podcast format has evolved over time and why•    What we have planned for the future•    Hurdles and barriers I have faced in my career•    A key “unlock” that made building my personal brand and business faster and easier•    7 “Unlock Themes” of barriers that can be broken through via participating in a mastermind group experience•    The power of mastermind groups•    Introducing BONFIRE a mastermind community for established creative professionals ____________________________ Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode of the podcast, use the following links for more of my work and some valuable resources to get you started on your branding initiatives. Until the next episode!  WEBSITE:http://www.philipvandusen.com   THE BRAND•MUSE NEWSLETTER:  http://www.philipvandusen.com/muse   THE BRAND DESIGN MASTERS FACEBOOK GROUP:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/branddesignmasters/  YOUTUBE CHANNEL:http://www.youtube.com/c/PhilipVanDusen   TWITTER:https://twitter.com/philipvandusen   PINTEREST:https://www.pinterest.com/philipvandusen   FACEBOOK:https://www.facebook.com/verhaalbranddesign  BRAND STRATEGY 101 COURSE:https://philipvandusen.com/bs101 Affiliate Partners: Bring Your Own Laptop - Adobe Training with Daniel Scotthttps://www.byol.me/philip   InVideohttps://bdmpodcast.com/invideoDiscount Code: "PHILIP50" Tubebuddyhttps://wwwtubebuddy.com/philipvandusen   ____________________________ The Brand Design Masters Podcast targets entrepreneurs, designers, creative professionals and anyone interested in brand strategy, business planning, graphic design, personal branding, trends and marketing. Philip VanDusen is the owner of Verhaal Brand Design, a brand strategy and design agency based in New Jersey. Philip is a highly accomplished creative executive and expert in brand strategy, graphic design, marketing and creative management. Philip provides design, branding, marketing, career and business advice to creative professionals, entrepreneurs and companies on building successful brands for themselves and the clients and customers they serve.

Branding master Marty Neumeier returns and brings with him his brand education partner in crime, Andy Starr. Marty and Andy are co-founders of Level C, the world's most visionary brand education program. Creative Shit Show co-hosts and branding strategists Karen Larson and Justin Ahrens chat with the pair about all things brand and the Level C program, plus share other personal stories from their decades in design. Have a listen.

Today we're talking to Stephen Houraghan. Stephen is a freelancer turned brand strategist and the founder of Brand Master Academy where he helps freelancers evolve into brand strategists using his proven system. His program has helped over 20,000+ students including clients that have gone from charging just a few thousand dollars to winning projects worth over $60,000. Stephen's unconventional approach has transformed struggling agencies into highly paid and sought-after brands.On his ‘Brand Master' podcast, Stephen has interviewed leaders in the branding industry including Sunny Bonnell, Douglass Davis, Michael Janda, and Marty Neumeier.In this episode we dive deep into how to evolve from freelancer to brand strategist, what brand strategy even means, why its important for businesses to invest in brand strategy, and much more. Whether you're already a brand strategist or you don't know what brand strategy even means, this episode is a must listen. Key Lessons:When it comes to positioning yourself as a brand strategist on social media, you can't be talking about pixels and websites, you have to understand the craft, change the conversations you have with clients, and get into the nitty gritty of brand strategy on your social media The most fundamental brand strategy questions are: 1. Who are we for and 2. Why should they chose us over our competitors. When you're building a brand, take the time get clear on your brand's answers to these questions so you can communicate your message properly to your prospects. Brand Master Academy Website: https://brandmasteracademy.com/Brand Master Academy YouTube Page: https://www.youtube.com/@BrandMasterAcademy

Legendary branding master Marty Neumeier joins the Creative Shit Show to share stories from his fantastic career and speak to his current mission to continue to bring the conversation about branding and branders to the forefront of the C suite and businesses worldwide. From humble beginnings to working with iconic brands like Apple, Netscape, HP, Adobe, and Google, this best-selling author has a lot of stories to tell, and we wanted to hear all of them. We think you will too. Grab a cocktail, and have a listen.

Learn how to find your key differentiator with 26 differentiation strategy examples to inspire your positioning strategy.

This episode was so wonderful to listen back to! We hope you enjoy. We will be back with Season 7 on January 24th!Brand strategy is the foundation upon which meaningful brand identity design lives. It's important for brand designers to understand the "why" behind brand strategy so they can use it to improve their design work and sell it to their clients as a package with design or standalone service.Today Jen chats with Melinda Livsey all about Brand Strategy. Melinda is a brand strategist and online educator from Southern California. She currently helps graphic designers become brand strategists so they can develop entire directions and personalities of brands. Her courses Brand Strategy Bootcamp and How to Sell Brand Strategy can be found at https://www.marksandmaker.com.Links Mentioned:Melinda's videos on The Futur's YouTube channelMelinda's websiteMelinda's course, Brand Strategy BootcampMelinda's Brand Strategy Resources"The Brand Gap: How to Bridge the Distance Between Business Strategy and Design" by Marty Neumeier"You Are A Badass at Making Money: Master the Mindset of Wealth" by Jen SinceroSpecial thanks to our producer Jon from Wayfare Recording Co.Connect With Us:Our Free Facebook CommunityOur WebsiteOur Resources PagePodcast InstagramSupport us on PatreonOur podcast disclaimer can be found by visiting:www.betterbranddesigner.com/disclaimer

Summary:This week on How To Win: Brian Bourque, SVP of Marketing at SmartAsset, where they've grown a lead generation business from $0 to $100M+ in revenue primarily through paid acquisition marketing and SEO. Brian has a ton of experience leading profitable paid acquisition teams in quantitative, direct-response marketing businesses. He's an advocate of using behavioral psychology, tech, data, and creativity to find exciting, new approaches to business. In this episode, Brian breaks down six important lessons he's learned throughout his career. We discuss why tactics aren't strategy, why the internet is bigger than you think, and, for lesson one, why scaling is about realizing where the leverage lies in each part of your company. I give my thoughts on what a good strategy looks like, the concept of pattern interrupt, and why if they 'zig', you should 'zag'.Key Points: Lesson One - Scaling is about realizing where the leverage lies in each part of your company (01:17) How do you find out which points of leverage are the best? (02:51) I weigh in on the overuse of the term 'scaling' (05:15) Lesson Two - Tactics are not the same as strategy (05:53) I talk about the differences between tactics and strategy with a quote from author Richard P. Rumelt (08:15) Lesson Three - There is value in asking, "What would need to be true to achieve X?" (09:42) I give my thoughts on finding your way to 'X' with a quote from author Roger Martin (12:08) I recall a story from Matt Epstein, former VP of Marketing at Zenefits, about impossible goals with a quote from Matt (14:07) Lesson Four - The internet is larger than you think (15:44) Lesson Five - At scale, everyone is a competitor (18:09) I discuss the concept of pattern interrupt with a quote from Mutiny's Jaleh Rezaei (20:41) Lesson Six - When they 'zig', you 'zag' (22:11) I explain why you should always 'zag' with a quote from author Marty Neumeier (22:55) Wrap up (24:40) Mentioned:Brian Bourque LinkedInBrian Bourque TwitterBrian Bourque's NewsletterRichard P. Rumelt 's Good Strategy Bad Strategy - The Difference and Why It MattersRoger Martin's A New Way To ThinkMatt Epstein LinkedInContent, community, and customer acquisition with Mutiny's Jaleh RezaeiMarty Neumeier's ZAGMy Links:TwitterLinkedInWebsiteWynterSpeeroCXL

On this episode I chatted with Sarah Sears. Sarah, founder and principal of S Design Inc., is an award-winning branding and design professional and AIGA Fellow. Sears  speaks at local and regional events effusing and evangelizing about how branding, design and marketing are catalysts for business and organizational growth. Most recently, Sarah studied with international branding expert Marty Neumeier, earning the Brand Strategist and Brand Specialist Level C Certifications. Sarah led the visual identity team of 25 talented designers through the process of creating the new Oklahoma logo and supporting visual design elements. Her work is an exercise in restrained beauty, with form hot on the heels of function. Sarah's Business www.sdesigninc.com  This episode is presented by the following sponsors. The Oklahoma Hall of Fame at the Gaylord-Pickens Museum telling Oklahoma's story through its people since 1927. For more information on the Oklahoma Hall of Fame go to www.oklahomahof.com and for daily updates go to www.instagram.com/oklahomahof. The Chickasaw Nation is economically strong, culturally vibrant and full of energetic people dedicated to the preservation of family, community and heritage. www.chickasaw.net 988Okla The Oklahoma 988 Mental Health Lifelife. 988 is the direct, three-digit lifeline that connects you with trained behavioral health professionals that can get all Oklahomans the help they need. Learn more by visiting www.988oklahoma.com Bedford Camera & Video use promo code "THISISOK" for 5% off your purchase and shop www.bedfordsokc.com #thisisoklahoma

In this episode, we chat with Chris Do, Founder, and CEO of The Futur, to talk about leveling up your personal brand and building influence. Chris unpacks what it takes to build a strong and impactful brand that resonates with your audience.  TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES: [00:00] - Personal Brand & Building Influence with Chris Do, CEO of The Futur [00:20] - Marty Neumeier's definition of branding: a gut feeling that a person has about a product, service, or organization. [02:20] - Understanding what constitutes a strong brand. [04:02] - Why everyone has an unintentional personal brand and how to build yours intentionally.  [06:33] - Brand through the lens of POP culture [08:49] - You need to master this if you want to build a strong PERSONAL BRAND [10:58] - Why Narrative, Impression and Storytelling is important for building your brand   Leave Some Feedback:   What should I talk about next? Who should I interview? Please let me know on Twitter or in the comments below. Did you enjoy this episode? If so, please leave a short review here Subscribe to Leveling Up on iTunes Get the non-iTunes RSS Feed   Connect with Eric Siu:    Growth Everywhere Single Grain Leveling Up Eric Siu on Twitter Eric Siu on Instagram

In episode #2250, we chat with Chris Do, Founder, and CEO of The Futur, to talk about leveling up your personal brand and building influence. Chris unpacks what it takes to build a strong and impactful brand that resonates with your audience, why branding is all about impression management, and how you can elevate your personal brand through intentional work. For top tips and profound insights on how to master your branding strategy, make sure you press play now! TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES: [00:25] Today's topic: Leveling Up Your Personal Brand & Building Influence. [00:35] Get to know our guest, Chris Do, a loud introvert and recovering graphic designer! [00:58] Why Chris identifies as a teacher, not an influencer. [02:22] How Chris started making YouTube content and how the decision changed his career. [03:34] Marty Neumeier's definition of branding: a gut feeling that a person has about a product, service, or organization. [05:13] Understanding what constitutes a strong brand. [07:19] Why everyone has an unintentional personal brand and how to build yours intentionally.  [09:37] That's it for today! Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to this podcast! [09:39] Visit https://live.levelingup.com for information on our Private Founders Events! [10:08] Go to https://www.marketingschool.io to learn more!   Links Mentioned in Today's Episode:   Chris Do on LinkedIn The Futur   The Brand Gap: How to Bridge the Distance Between Business Strategy and Design   Subscribe to our premium podcast (with tons of goodies!): https://www.marketingschool.io/pro   Leave Some Feedback:     What should we talk about next? Please let us know in the comments below Did you enjoy this episode? If so, please leave a short review.     Connect with Us:    Neilpatel.com Quick Sprout  Growth Everywhere Single Grain Twitter @neilpatel  Twitter @ericosiu

“The businesses that generally fail are where the founder says they have a backup plan, like a job. My mentality was if it failed, I would start another business. So I may as well make this one work.” In this episode of The Inner Chief podcast, we speak to footwear brand trailblazer, Vince Lebon, the CEO and Founder of Rollie Nation, on streamlining systems, scaling a business and operating rhythm.

Notes from today's Service Business Mastery podcast episode: What is a BRAND? Let's peel back the o”g”nion Boils down to your reputation Perception in the client's mind Impact on the market It's really about YOUR reputation Going above and beyond is a basic foundation for building a great brand You can not change your visual Your Brand is like an iceberg We can all see the tip Below the surface, there is so much more going on… What questions should we ask our agency when we are looking to rebrand? They should be asking customer-centric questions The logo isn't the first thing they should be looking at… Focus on your customer If you try to be something to everyone, you become nothing to everyone… Brand equity is crazy valuable. START with strategy…this will make the long-term branding effectiveness 26:20 - be the little voice in the client's mind when they think about a niche area… Look at what the competition is NOT saying, and build your position to solve that issue… 29.00 - You DON'T have to turn away clients that don't fit into your brand strategy while you're still growing. 33:29 - branding is the fuel for your marketing… MelissaData - https://www.melissa.com/  Brandmasteracademy.com/brand-strategy-blueprint/ Brand Master Academy on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/BrandMasterAcademy    A little more from Stephen: IT'S TIME TO RETHINK BRANDING  Most talented brand builders are not getting paid enough and compete with cheap, low-quality, inexperienced operators.  It's an issue that has devastated the industry.  Thankfully, Stephen has come up with the solution by creating a proven system that provides the keys to a structured framework that helps freelancers and agencies evolve into brand strategists.  His program has helped over 20,000+ students, including clients that have gone from charging just a few thousand dollars to winning projects worth over $60,000. Stephen's unconventional approach has transformed struggling agencies into highly paid and sought-after brands.  On his ‘Brand Master' podcast, Stephen has interviewed leaders in the branding industry, including Marty Neumeier, Douglass Davis, Michael Janda, and Sunny Bonnell.  Stephen is on a mission to revolutionize the way branding professionals operate. Because branding is not about pixels and logos.

With all the noise, how can you stand out online? It may seem hard, but it doesn't have to be. Here are 6 ways you can differentiate yourself to stand out online by simply sharing important factors about your brand and business. Your personal brand is how you connect with others online If you want to stand out online, start by creating a personal brand. A personal brand is what your audience thinks, says, and feels about you. In other words, the perception others have of you. Your story, everything about your journey, the experiences you've had, and the education, formal and informal, have led you right where you are today. Each one of these things helps to differentiate you from everyone else in your area of expertise. This list of experiences includes the good, bad, and ugly. The successes alongside the mistakes and failures. In fact, it is often the mistakes and failures that taught you the most and can help you stand out online and truly resonate with your audience. Your personal brand must be compelling to stand out online Be compelling. The more compelling you are, the better chance you have to stand out online. How can you be compelling when there are so many others in your niche?  Especially if you are a coach or a photographer. When scrolling on Instagram it seems as though there are way too many of each to be able to be noticed as an expert. But this is where your unique differences and experiences come into play. Compelling means: to evoke interest, attention, or admiration in a powerfully irresistible way. The more compelling you are through your personal branding efforts, the more you will differentiate yourself in your area of expertise. The more you differentiate yourself, the more you will stand out online. If you are sitting there thinking that there is nothing compelling about you, think again! An Example of  Differentiating We all have a compelling story or at least compelling parts in our journeys. Our stories of who we are, what we do, why we do it, and how we got here differentiate us and compel others to connect with us, like us and trust us. Every unique thing about you is part of your compelling story. If you are a business coach, you might focus on mindset.   That's fantastic, everyone needs help with mindset.   But why do YOU focus on mindset? What things in your journey led you to focus on the importance of mindset? The answer to that question is the thing that will compel someone to connect with you and eventually purchase from you. Differentiation is Zigging When Everyone Else is Zagging Differentiating also goes beyond being different within your niche. It's about disrupting your industry by zigging when everyone else is zagging. As a reference, Marty Neumeier wrote a book called Zag, which demonstrates this concept. Thinking outside of the box becomes critical.  If 10 people are mindset coaches and you are one of them, how can you differentiate yourself in that space?  It's a must-do exercise if you want to stand out online from others in the professional space you are in. Here's a simple exercise for you. Make a list of ways that your work is different or unique. Sticking with the mindset coach as an example, perhaps you've created a reverse thinking model. Or maybe you've developed a strategy for transforming negative thoughts into positive action. You might focus on mindset but also focus on business strategic action. Could it be that your approach is so unique that your clients are experiencing more positive results than you've ever seen or read about before? If yes, then you are doing something unique that differentiates you in the area of mindset coaching. But that isn't quite enough when we talk about personal branding and differentiating yourself to stand out online. Let's dive a little deeper. What is personal branding and how can it help you stand out online? Personal branding is your efforts to show your audience how you are unique and what differentiates you from everyone else. What parts of your story, your journey, and your experiences make you unique? How can you share those details to help you stand out online from everyone else in your area of expertise? You created your business for a reason. Maybe you felt a calling. Or, maybe you were told that you were good at something and decided to start a business because you want to help people by sharing the skills you have. No matter which it is, it is important to tell the world what makes you so great at what you do. Every part of your journey differentiates you. Even if someone else had the same experience as you, their perception of the experience and the impact the experience had on them is different than what you perceived and experienced. Your perception and the impact the experience had on you is how you have garnered the knowledge that you now use to help others, those people who are on a similar journey a little bit behind you. Below is a list of items that you can use as a baseline for differentiating your personal brand and business to help you stand out online. Keep in mind that you have several options for sharing the information that differentiates you. Start with your website. Your copy should include details that outline your journey and how you've garnered your expertise. Write blog posts that include details about your journey. Repurpose this content for social media, email marketing campaigns, and Pinterest posts. Tell the world about what makes you unique so that they can understand why they should trust you and purchase from you. 6 ways you can and should differentiate yourself to stand out online Services The reason you provide the service(s) that you provide is because of the experiences that have led you to this part of your journey. Even if you offer the same or similar services as someone else, how you offer your service(s) is unique to you. Likewise, the delivery of your service(s) is unique to you. Perhaps the length of time you provide your service is unique to you. Everything about the way you provide your service was designed by you based on your life experiences and what you have learned and can now share with your clients. Think about the mindset coach who also combines strategy. Customers Your soulmate clients are unique to you. Define the people you want to work with. You have gifts that are meant to serve a certain group of people. These people are probably you, a few short years ago. Likewise, you only want to work with certain people, people that are aligned with your values and you know that working with them will fulfill you.   Who are they?  Create your content for those people specifically and this will differentiate you as the person who works for/with those select people. If you are struggling with defining your soulmate clients, think about who asks if they can pick your brain? Similarly, look around to see who thinks you're great and is already consuming your content and hanging on every word you say. These questions will give you some insight, at least a starting point, as to who your soulmate clients are. Location Do you work only in your geographical area or do you work with clients across the continental United States or even internationally? If you only work locally, is there direct competition? If yes, are there opportunities for collaboration or a referral program? Or, maybe branch out with your location to reach a larger local audience and to limit the direct competition. Note, I don't like to think of it as competition because there is always enough work for everyone. However, whether someone chooses to work with you or someone else will depend on the job you do to differentiate yourself to stand out online where people are searching and consuming. Speed and Ease Is it easy to work with you? How fast can people schedule a discovery call with you? Or, how fast will your clients see the result they are looking for?  Can people get on your calendar or do you have a waitlist? There is no right or wrong answer.  Both can be right depending on who your ideal client is.  In fact, sometimes when people have to wait to work with you, it means you have created demand and you are attracting your soulmate clients. Likewise, is your onboarding process simple? Is it automated so that you can quickly onboard clients and get paid? Do you offer a payment plan? These are questions you can answer upfront or when on a discovery call to help differentiate your brand. Your reasons for your onboarding process are specific to your experiences and how you have perceived them and in turn, want to influence the experience your clients have with you. Pricing Higher prices – if your prices are higher, you won't be for everyone. You can differentiate yourself as the best in a class by having higher prices and great testimonials and references. Lower prices – warning! Don't be undersold.  If you have lower prices you will attract a different clientele than if your prices are the highest in the industry.  Don't undercut your prices so much that you start hating your work and become resentful of people who are only willing to pay the low price you set but expect the same level of service as someone paying much more. You have to know your value and stick to it, but if you believe your prices should be the lowest in the category, be sure you are still providing quality so that the perception of you is great value for the price, not only the lowest price. Quality This refers back to results and the overall experience your clients have when working with you. How impactful are the results you are achieving for your clients? The mindset and strategy coach has clients that are achieving $10K months within the first month of working together, while the coach who only works on mindset has clients who are achieving $2K months within the first month of working together. Your brand prestige is related to both price and quality and the two should be aligned with each other, but most importantly with your values as a personal brand. You can differentiate yourself by the results you are achieving for yourself and your clients. But, remember that your clients will become your greatest marketing tool. If they receive quality service and great results from you, they will boast about you to their friends, colleagues, and family. This is fabulous, but if you are attracting people who only want to pay low dollars and yet you are providing high-quality service you will burn out quickly because those are the type of clients your happy clients will be sending your way. As you map out your plan for differentiating yourself to stand out online, be mindful of all of the above as they are ultimately interwoven. Disrupt Your Niche Here's something I learned in my brand specialist certification training. The more you make assumptions about your industry and disrupt them, the more you will differentiate yourself. Keep in mind that your goal is to differentiate yourself in a way that provides a positive perception for those who are in your ideal audience. You want to differentiate yourself in a way that converts your ideal audience to raving fans, clients, and referral sources. You have the power to control the perception others have of you and differentiation is the key to driving the focus onto your brand and business. Building a strong foundation for long-term success starts with creating a personal brand to stand out online Building a solid foundation for long-term brand and business success begins with creating a personal brand and differentiating yourself. Download my free eBook on my Purpose to Results™ Method and learn more about building a strong foundation for long-term success. And, if you've already downloaded the eBook and are ready to dive into mindset work, need help to navigate challenges with tech, tools, systems, and processes, help with creating a brand marketing strategy, and/or accountability to take intentional effective action, I invite you to schedule a discovery call with me by clicking here.

Any business, no matter what size or how old it is, should always be ready for sale. If your business is 'sale ready' you're on the right track for making your business even more successful. Take a cold, clinical and hard look at your business and ask, are we doing the best that we can? If not, what could we do better. Why would someone want to buy us? Why would someone NOT want to buy us? Waterford accountants FitzGerald Power brought brand experts Totem into their business to give it a 'once over' - and lessons were learnt. Colin Byrne, Creative Director with Totem and Stuart FitzGerald, managing partner at FitzGerald Power share their insights about the process and why and how any business would benefit from doing the same.Their 'hires in a heartbeat'. Colin wants business coach Marty Neumeier and Stuart opted for another business coach, his choice was Jim Collins.Mary Walsh is co-founder with husband Shay of what is now Ireland's largest pallet maker. Former banker Mary joined TeamGBS to share her passion for pallets. She even admits on air that she 'LOVES pallets'. So that's a first! Every business has its little quirks and we learn that to make pallets you have to heat them to 56 degrees Centigrade to ensure the death of the dreadful bark beetle. Mary's business was transformed when she entered the 'Going for Growth' programme, run by Paula FitzSimons and she encourages anyone who can, to get involved in that programme. Mary is also volunteer lead entrepreneur on the wonderful Acorns programme that encourages women in rural Ireland to get involved in business and Mary also shares her passion for that.Her 'hire in a heartbeat'? Ryanair's Michael O'Leary - a popular choice amongst TeamGBS members, but he'd have to start at the bottom.Pamela Laird of Moxi Loves and Tammy Darcy of The Shona Project joined TeamGBS to encourage women entrepreneurs to get involved in the Visa (Card) 'She's Next' programme that will give five women led businesses €10,000 in cash each, plus mentoring that last year's winner Tammy, said was absolutely invaluable - opening doors right around the world. The Shona Project is fantastically successful in getting young women to be more confident and the social enterprise is now reaching around the world. Pamela's 'hire in a heartbeat' is Kim Kardashian (but of course!) whilst Tammy wants three hires, Gillian Maxwell, Orlaith Carmody and Michelle Obama (sure, why not?)All tips and insights are brought to you thanks to De Facto Shaving Oil - the world's best shaving oil. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this episode of the brand master podcast, I'm speaking with the best-selling author of The Brand Gap, the Brand Flip, zag, scramble, and Meta-skills, Mr. Marty Neumeier about the future of branding and brand strategy. 

In this episode of Devour--the podcast for the hungry entrepreneur, I have the pleasure of talking to Andy Starr--brand architect and managing partner of Level C. Buckle up! We'll be launching into his first-hand experience on how the online education space has changed, how he became the partner of the branding legend, author, and speaker Marty Neumeier, and how he approaches business from a non-traditional angle as an agency owner. — Dain's Links: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dainwalker/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dainwalkerofficial YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCz1eMJcjy8HfyvWJ_U1_WxQ Website: https://dainwalker.com/ — Andy's Links: Level C Website: https://www.levelc.org/

What you will learn from this episode: Find out how you can distinctly get across your unique value proposition Understand the reason behind doing a brand audit Find out the four key things you need to measure in your brand audit to help make you ‘brandtastic'   3R's - Read, Resource, Reflect Read:  Zag by Marty Neumeier Resource: Zag brand statement “Our brand is the only (category) that (ZAG or unique feature).” E.g. Our brand is the only real estate investor who does home buying walkthroughs via Facetime to keep you safe.  Reflect: “Don't strive to be a leader in your category. Create a different category and be the only one in it.” - Joe Calloway   Summary: Why being brandtastic matters? What do you need a brand audit for? Why is it even necessary? You might have a viewpoint of what your brand is, but that is not reflected in how the market perceives you. A brand audit gives you insights into your strengths and weaknesses. It lets you find threats and opportunities. And ultimately helps you align with your market's expectation of your brand.  In this episode, Paul demonstrates how you can clearly communicate what you do uniquely and differently as a real estate investor brand. And this helps you to be remembered and referred to, as this is what the goal is in the final analysis. He gives important reasons why you do regular brand audits. He also shares some concrete ideas and actions that you can take away and use right away in your real estate investing business any time now. Topics Covered: 01:09 - Paul's message of thanks 02:05 - Any question about branding or marketing? 02:41 - What does ‘brandtastic' mean? 03:37 - Sharing Joe Calloway's thought on being ‘brandtastic' 04:40 - Talking about Marty Neumeier's recommendation around brand zagging 07:23 - Why a brand audit? 09:27 - Why do you need to measure these four important things in your brand audit: analytics, buyers, competition, and data? 13:49 - Suggested time interval for your brand audit   Key Takeaways: “I do find with a lot of real estate investors, they focus a lot of time in looking at the impact of their marketing, but they don't spend a lot of time looking at the impact of their brand. And marketing gets you the attention. But the brand will be the reason why somebody chooses you.” - Paul Copcutt “That's why you must think about your brand. And you spend time on a regular basis to audit that brand and what are the perceptions of that brand, because you may have an opinion around what your brand is, but it's not what's being truly reflected in the marketplace.” - Paul Copcutt “What are people saying about your brand? Do you really know what they're saying?  And a brand audit might give you that insight.”  - Paul Copcutt  “It's critical that what's being perceived and the analytics of your website where you're driving people to, because everything else that you do outside of your website, if you treat your website like a home country gives people a flavor for your home country. But it's not the same as people coming and visiting your home country, which is your website.” - Paul Copcutt “When you make a decision around a brand, there's some kind of emotional connection. You want to know what is that emotional connection that's happening between you and your potential clients or your existing clients.” - Paul Copcutt “Serving your customers, serving your prospects is critical in terms of understanding your buyers.” - Paul Copcutt “You can get a deeper understanding of your competition, just reach on places like Facebook, for example.”  - Paul Copcutt   Additional resources and recommendations:  Brand Audit Checklist Download here http://reibranded.com/checklist/   Connect with Paul Copcutt: reibranded.com LinkedIn E:podcast@paulcopcutt.com Music: Thank you to Zoax for the intro music      

What you will learn from this episode: Find out why you should focus more on understanding the soft side of your skills more than the technical ones Discover tools and resources to help you uncover your strengths and leverage them Find out how other people perceive you to help you build your personal brand and your real estate business 3R's - Read, Resource, Reflect Read: The Brand You 50 by Tom Peters Resource: StrengthsFinder Assessment https://www.gallup.com/cliftonstrengths/en/strengthsfinder.aspx Reflect: "A brand is not what you say it is. It's what they say it is" - Marty Neumeier Summary: As a real estate investor, people would associate you with other real estate investors' attributes. And it gets you in the game. It gets you considered. But it doesn't differentiate you. How, then, do you stand out from the rest? A strong brand's foundation is built on maximizing one's strengths. Every interaction, every time somebody comes across you, hears of you -- they make that connection back to your brand. In this episode, Paul shares that understanding your soft skills helps you uncover your strengths and leverage them more than focusing on technical skills. That even years back, working on soft skills -- negotiating, communicating, and leading had already established and made successful personal solid brands more than relying on technical skills. Topics Covered: 01:18 - Paul's confession 02:26 - Personal brand - understanding your soft skills and less emphasis on the technical side 04:36 - How branding established and made a success of engineer personal products years back 08:09 - The core foundation of personal branding 09:08 - The three key areas of a great personal brand -- why the need to understand these three 11:45 - Why it's critical to know how others perceive you in terms of your brand and your business 12:56 - What you should do to know how people perceive you 14:13 - Why look for emotional more than your rational attributes when getting feedback from others 15:34 - Disadvantages of using this feedback approach 15:47 - A FREE tool for 15-day access to help you get honest feedback: 360 Personal Brand Assessment. Click here: https://www.reachcc.com/reach/survey.nsf/page/home 17:31 - What you can uncover and make of the feedback from the tool used 17:57 - Leveraging your strengths 19:23 - More tools and books recommendation to help you in building your personal brand 19:50 - What is this tool, StrengthsFinder 2.0, all about, and what does it help you with? 22:21 - How to highlight the strengths uncovered from the StrengthsFinder tool Key Takeaways: “85% of your financial success is due to personality, the ability to communicate, negotiate, and lead. Only 15% is dependent on technical skills.” - from the Carnegie Institute of Technology research “It is up to you nowadays to own the definition of who you are. You really can't let your work speak for itself. If you're only relying on the technical skills and the technical side of running your real estate investing business, that is probably not going to be enough.” - Paul Copcutt “A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product, or service, or a company” - Marty Neumeier. “When I look at that quote, it's one that I can certainly extend further out into a person because a brand is a person's gut feeling about another person.” - Paul Copcutt “A great personal brand kind of focuses on three key areas, like a Venn diagram, with three circles. The first circle is you; the second circle is the target audience. And the third circle is competition. And if you kind of intersperse those or relay those over each other and right in that center that where those three circles intersect is the essence of a great personal brand.” - Paul Copcutt “If you took just you and target audience, but you ignored the competition, it's very difficult for people to compare; they're confused and might misinterpret what you're saying because they don't really have anything to compare it against.” - Paul Copcutt “If you look at target audience and competition, but you ignore you, there's no connection for people, there's no differentiating, you'll end up being in the areas of a commodity because there is no kind of personal influence there.” - Paul Copcutt “If you look at you, and the competition, but you ignore the target audience, you could be spending and wasting a lot of time and resources and marketing dollars trying to reach your target audience you haven't even identified.” - Paul Copcutt “When you're getting those feedback from people, you won't be looking for those rational attributes; you want to be looking for emotional attributes, the differentiators. It might be that you're caring; you don't necessarily need to be caring to be a great real estate investor. The emotional attributes are the reasons why somebody will want to work with you potentially as an employee or a contractor, do business with you as a joint venture partner or private money lender.” - Paul Copcutt “Quite often, even though you don't know who said it [feedback from the tool used], because it's all anonymous, what you can do is lift some of that information and turn them into mini testimonials that you could potentially use on marketing materials.” - Paul Copcutt “The other thing you want to think about is uncovering other hidden talents that you have or maybe not so hidden. And one of those quite often is strengths.” - Paul Copcutt “You can spend a lot of time and energy trying to make a weakness a strength, when in fact, you've already got some great strengths.” - Paul Copcutt “The foundation of strong brands is built on maximizing your strengths. Take the time to get to know you, and then ensure that you're delivering on everything that you do.” - Paul Copcutt “Every interaction, every time somebody comes across you, hears of you, they make that connection back to your brand.” - Paul Copcutt Additional resources and recommendations: Books: The Brand Gap and ZAG, both by Marty Neumeier StrengthsFinder 2.0 by Tom Rath Now Discover Your Strengths - Marcus Buckingham and Donald Clifton Resources: 360 Personal Brand Assessment - https://www.reachcc.com/reach/survey.nsf/page/home Connect with Paul Copcutt: reibranded.com LinkedIn E:podcast@paulcopcutt.com Music: Thank you to Zoax for the intro music

As branding guru Marty Neumeier says, a brand strategy is “a plan for the systematic development of brand in alignment with a business strategy.” A brand strategy helps you understand who you are and acts as a blueprint to help you communicate it. But how do you create a brand strategy? In this episode of Behind the Brand, we talk about the essential elements of a brand strategy and finish off talking about how you can create your mission, values, and vision.

Today, brand value is one of the most valuable assets a company can have. For many, it's proving to be their only asset.Yet most companies don't really know how to build a high value brand.  Others simply don't see brand building as a long term investment. The few who have strategically - and often painstakingly - invested in building a brand have reaped the rewards.  From Apple, with its trillion dollar valuation, to Coke-a-Cola, the godfather of global brands - and including everything from luxury goods to packaged goods, from technology to manufacturing - the few companies who get brand right enjoy a massive payoff.I'm Jane Singer and welcome to a Seat at the Table.If you want to understand how to build a power brand then my guest today is the man to see.  Marty Neumeier, is a bestselling author and Director of CEO Branding at Liquid Agency.  He is one of the few people who can boast that Steve Jobs not only read one of his books, but found it so valuable that he wrote his name “Steve Jobs” on the cover along with the warning “Hands Off”.  Marty has decades of experience helping companies - in addition to Apple - create brands that are built to last.Before we get started, if you're looking to develop knitwear collections that are on brand and meet consumer demand, then SPINEXPO is the place to go.  It's  the primary exhibition for yarns and knitwear.  Spinexpo provides well-edited forums featuring top quality products that are filled with creativity.  To learn more, go to SPINEXPO.com.  You can also find a link in the show notes for this episode.Now, get ready to hear Marty discuss how to build your brand into a profitable, market leader.Learn more about SPINEXPO:  www.spinexpo.comLearn more about Liquid Agency:  https://www.liquidagency.comLearn about Level C:  www.levelc.org

BGBS 054: Andy Starr | Level C | Different Is So ImportantAndy Starr is a provocateur in the niche landscape where education, business, and brand co-exist. He sees the value in being different and finds comfort in creating change. Even as a kid, he liked being the black sheep. He didn't identify with the lead singer in a band or the striker making goals in soccer, he always wanted to be the drummer in the back or the goalie with a different uniform. With 17+ years of agency experience, Andy continues to move the needle forward with co-founder/brand master Marty Neumeier, as they educate leaders in the evolution of brand within business through their platform, Level C. You'll learn that Andy believes in more than just using strategy to sell. He believes in people, storytelling, and provoking emotion. Andy believes that provocation can be good and different can be important, inspiring us to ask ourselves how can we each embrace our differences to provide value to the world. In this episode, you'll learn…Andy considers himself to be a provocateur in the professional education space. To him, this means being different for the sake of being valuable. In the professional education realm, what needs to change is access, quality of content, relevance of content, and applicability of concepts. Andy and Marty Neumeier care about progressing professional education through the lense of brand. On the higher academic level, much of what is studied focuses on theory. The purpose of this is to teach you to think critically and prepare you for a world that is constantly evolving. With this in mind, analytic thought will always be relevant. Andy grew up in a conservative, change-resistant part of the world. Growing up, he always wanted to do the complete opposite of what was expected of him. When he learned the payoff of being different it transformed his whole world. Andy was always enraptured by the drums. He resonated with drummers the most but didn't begin playing himself until college. When he did, he expresses it as meeting himself for the first time. While in law school, Andy helped his girlfriend with her graphic design clients and found more interest in that than what he was studying. She introduced him to The Brand Gap and he fell in love with the book. Marty was a great influence to Andy, and he messaged him many times with his accomplishments to prove himself worthy of being mentored. When Andy first visited Marty's apartment, he found a highly used, beat-up version of The Brand Gap that he thought may have been a first edition. He later learned that it belonged to the one and only, Steve Jobs. Level C's purpose is to bring the role of brand to the C suite so that business is done with the people in mind. By doing so, real change can happen within business, and in turn, the world. Brands do not control their audience, they influence them (and even that has a limit). A brand's stance will provide more context to where you stand in regards to their position, whether that is with or against them. ResourcesLinkedIn: Andy Starr Instagram: @the_andy_starr Level C Website: levelc.org Quotes[15:55] Different matters because we think that there's something in it for us. Whether it's noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. When I realized that, when that was revealed to me and for me, my whole perspective on everything changed. [19:25] I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. Even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist, or the lead singer, or the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that I felt in my chest, in my gut. [51:56] What we're trying to do with Level C is we're trying to put in, or depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand into the C suite. To restore the role of brand into a position of influence on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side…to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think, and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. [53:01] We're not looking to change the world. We're looking to change a part of business because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. Podcast TranscriptAndy Starr 0:02 That romantic sense of the trajectory of my life or what I thought that trajectory needed to be, where it was always there, I couldn't shake it no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the guitarist or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right. And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep. And I honestly couldn't necessarily tell you why that was, but it always was. Marc Gutman 0:54 Podcasting from Boulder, Colorado. This is the Baby Got Backstory Podcast, where we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman. I'm Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby Got Backstory, we are talking with Andy Starr, co founder and partner of the brand education company Level C. And while I have your ear, if you're listening, I'm assuming you like our show. And if that premise holds true, then please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at Apple podcasts or Spotify, Apple and Spotify use these ratings as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on their charts. Better yet, please recommend this show to at least one friend you think will like it. If this is your first time listening, please consider subscribing. It is your subscriptions that make this show possible. Alright, enough of that stuff. Let's get back to the show. Andy Starr's bio describes him as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. And while that is a super cool bio, I think he's so much more than that. Yes, he's a provocateur. But he's also a thought leader, an empath, an educator, an entrepreneur, a brand nerd, a people person, the partner to branding legend, an author, Marty Neumeier. I hope I can call him a friend and he calls me the same. But if you ask Andy who he is, he'll probably say none of all that and simply tell you, he's a musician. With 17 plus years of agency and in house experience across multiple categories of client business, including special focus on nonprofit and higher education. Andy is equal parts strategist, creative manager, and storyteller. I first met Andy is one of his students via the Level C program. Level C is an education platform. They're a company and a certification focused on all things brand. I've personally attended, and surprisingly, graduated both levels one and two. And all I can tell you is that there's something special about what they are building. How Andy sees the world. In his relationship with brand Master, Marty Neumeier. Andy is an accomplished brand professional in his own right. And well on his way to becoming a brand icon. Just don't tell him that. And this is his story. I am here with Andy Starr. He describes himself as a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand. He is also the co founder and partner at Level C and we'll talk a bit about that. But Andy, what is a provocateur for hire at the intersection of education, business and brand? Andy Starr 4:20 That's what I like to think of a brand professional as being, someone who pokes the bear, someone who's looking to, you know, everyone's favorite word, zag. You know, when if everyone is doing this over here, I want to be the guy doing this over there, okay? And just you know, sometimes being different for the sake of being different, but professionally being different for the sake of being valuable. And that's what this whole thing is it's provocation. provocation can be bad, but provocation can be really good. It can be valuable, it can mean something. And that's how I see myself I just see myself as a provocateur for Hire less for hire these days, just, I'm getting tired of doing client work. You know, I want to focus more on being provocative in the professional education space. So, you know, and that is that is where we find ourselves, you know, at the intersection of business and education. You know, education is a business, I've had several education clients, universities and colleges that that refuse to acknowledge that they're a business at the end of the day, that makes my job as a brand provocateur more difficult. So when Marty and I started this, I was just like, let's just call it what it is, let's let's, let's not gloss, spin, blow smoke. Education in business is where we are. It's what we do. And it's what we're looking to transform, you know, then leave leave, leave the bullshitters to play in other spaces that they just make up, or that they they ignore. So that's, that's my jam. Marc Gutman 6:00 Yeah. And so, you know, you're talking about being a provocateur in the education space, which leads me to believe that there's something wrong with the education space, at least as we see it today. That holds true, please correct me if I'm incorrect in making that assumption. What's wrong with education today? Like, what are you trying to change? Andy Starr 6:19 Oh, man, you don't have enough time in your podcast. The big problem with education is its inability, or refusal to accept the fact that it needs to change. And there are 1,000,001 ways in which it needs to change, it needs to change from an administrative perspective, it needs to change from an academic perspective, it needs to change from a financial perspective. And it needs to change from a distribution perspective. So for us, in the professional education, part of the sandbox, we believe that education should be a life long thing, it should go on forever, we should, you should no one should ever want to stop learning. Most people don't. But access, quality of content, relevance of content, applicability of concepts, that needs to change. And we're not proposing that we, we are like the savior of education, we don't think that we're the savior of professional education, we want to, we want to practice what we preach and live up to what we believe. And so when it comes to professional education, we want to keep it focused on you know, we're not branding and marketing and sales and advertising content and social media. rebrand, and we're not, we don't want to take a how to brand approach to education, we just want to say, here's how you think about education, right? So when we think about our academic perch, we're not giving people prescriptions, we're just giving them food for thought. Okay, but that's not really out there. There are people who do it, you know, there, there are outlets, there are providers that do it. But there are fewer and farther between. and at a higher academic level, like MBA programs, there are really no MBA programs that talk about brand. If you want to find brand and Wharton's MBA program, you have to specialize more focus in marketing, you have to take marketing courses at Wharton. And, you know, hopefully you hear about brand at some point, but they don't talk about how to think about brand. That's just a loose example. So it's a big mountain to climb, dude. And Marty and I care very much about education, I especially care about education, my professional background and my family's background. I have educators in my family, my father was a professor, my grandfather was a university founder, he fell, he co founded a university and was an academic dean. And it's, I just care about it, it just matters. And so that's the space we want to play in. Marc Gutman 9:07 And I definitely want to get into that. And we might go there real soon here. And as he is you're talking like this idea of education remaining. You mentioned a lot of great points, you know, applicability and accessibility and just availability, but this, this idea of like education, having to remain relevant, and I'm personally just obsessed with this idea of like, relevance, and what does that mean, and how do you stay relevant? Because what struck me as you were your speaking is that Yeah, like our education gets stale really quick, especially in today's environment. It's not like, back in the day when the university held the professors and the university, you held the books and you had to go there and that was the only access you had to that information. And then the world was also moving equally as slow. But now, you know, we can we can Learn from a TED talk from someone around the world from someone we've never had access to put that in, in motion change the world. And so this idea of like staying relevant, and not even really sure, I have a question for you at the end of this is just fascinating to me. And that, you know, that really seems to be a huge challenge for people in the education space. Andy Starr 10:20 For sure. And like you said, one of the catalysts of that, you know, are sources of that challenge, is because unlike 30 4050 years ago, the world is just hyper connected. I don't even know if that's accurate. And it's just, we are all connected. We move and we think, and we learn and we consume at faster and faster speeds. Right? And so it raises the question of the role of immediacy, in education, right? Because and, and speed and immediacy, I think, are part of its relevance, right? How quickly can I have access to the educational content? How quickly can I consume it? How quickly can I be deemed to be proficient? And how quickly can I get out back in the real world, and actually use it and make a difference, bring value and earn something in return? Right? Those questions, raise 1000 more questions. So it's, it's complicated. It's it's super, super tricky. But, you know, another thing about relevance is, and this is something that we, we've actually tackled in our first level masterclass. For the teams that worked on higher education as a category to disrupt, right, we've heard things about kind of the cadence, or the formulaic structure of education, and this is something that Marty feels especially strong about, traditionally, is and even today, kind of the model of education is, you know, at that at the college and beyond level is like, you study theory, right? You spend four years, two years, you know, three years unless you studied theory, and then you go out in the world, and you learn gain us skills, right? But while you're studying that theory, it's like, What am I supposed to do with this? How does this how does how is this theory relevant to the world that I'm about to land in? Or that it's about to fall on me one way or another? How do I how do I survive just with this theory? And so you know, there's one school of thought, that says, you know, learn the skills first, and then continue lifelong learning and learn that theory, have a greater appreciation, a better ability to think critically and analytically. Right. But the flip side to that argument is, well, that's what a liberal arts education is in liberal arts teaches you how to think critically. And analytically, you're reading about history and philosophy, and literature, you're not doing that just for shits and giggles, right, you're not doing it solely to feed the ego of a tenured professor, although that that is part of it. It prepares you for a world that is constantly evolving. A world in which the kind of one career from start to finish doesn't exist the way it used to, with a few exceptions. And you have to be able to think critically and analytically so that you're flexible enough to kind of jump from one chapter of your career to the next from one role to another, from one category to another, and in some cases, making a complete career change from one to another. And I did that, right. And so we've altruistically, we sleep very well at night. Because we know that what we're doing is righteous, it's self righteous, we want to make a valuable contribution in this space. But at the same time, it's not that we've set ourselves up for failure is that it's a huge mountain to climb, and we will most certainly never get to the peak of it. But that's okay. That's okay. Marc Gutman 14:17 So much to unpack there and so, I'm not even gonna try. What I'd like to do is— Andy Starr 14:21 Talk to my therapist, I'll call her! Marc Gutman 14:25 I'd like to shift gears a little bit. And, you know, you talked a little bit about your family and your family history. But you know, and you also mentioned that part of being a provocateur is is being different and so when you were young, were you always striving to be different as a child. I mean, was this was this ingrained in you? Is like eight year old Andy always pushing boundaries? Andy Starr 14:46 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I grew up in a relatively conservative minded white collar family. Dad was a lawyer mom was a social worker, and We lived in the suburbs of Philadelphia, and it was a relatively conservative, change resistant part of the world change resistant parents. And yeah, I was kind of a black sheep. I just, you know, if everyone told me to do one thing, I just wanted to do the complete opposite. I liked feeling and being different. But that's as a kid, you know, that I didn't understand the value in that. And it wasn't, it wasn't really until I got into this work. 2030 years later that I understood, why being different, wanting to feel different, look different, act different. Think different, is so important, and why I cared about it so much without understanding why and and, you know, Marty, we talked about this in the class, it's, you know, human beings are hardwired to notice what's different. But it's the why we're hardwired, we different matters, because we think that there's something in it for us. Whether it's noticing something different, or acting, feeling wanting to be different, there is a perceived payoff to that. And that when I when I realized that when that was kind of revealed to me, and for me, my whole perspective, my perspective on everything changed on life on career. And then when I realized how I could weaponize that and use that in this space, like, everything just kind of broke, broke open. And, but but but it, it bears it bears repeating. And like, I feel like the need to constantly say it, it's not being different. For the sake of being different. There's a reason for it. The reasons may be my own, right. The reasons may be a client's goals, it kind of doesn't matter. But there are reasons for doing it. There are reasons for wanting to do it. And there's sure shit reasons for learning how to think about that. Right. And again, it all comes back to learning to think. But I'm not, we don't teach you I would never teach someone how to be different. But we do talk about and I'm happy to talk about thinking about being different. Marc Gutman 17:23 Yeah, and I think thinking about being different is the for me at least the the key idea because inherently, we don't want to be different. I mean, our childhoods could have been very similar, except I grew up in Detroit new grew up in Philadelphia, but I remember, like, I felt different, but I didn't want to be different, you know, and being different,there was always this ying and this Yang between like and tention between being different and people saying, that's what makes you special. And the reality of like, we want to be part of groups, and we want to fit in and we want to be the same. And I think, you know, we can talk about this later. But I think that's the trap brands fall into all the time is that they, they want to fit in, they want to be seen, like they they're scared to be different. And they're thereby they try to fit in and then they get bland and they get diluted and all these things. Things happen. So, you know, when you were a kid when you were looking around and being different, I mean, what were you into? Like, what were your interests? Like? What did you think you were gonna be? Did you think you were gonna be a provocateur for hire? Did you think you were gonna be an education? Like, what do you think you were gonna do? Andy Starr 18:28 No, I mean, I guess Looking back, I think I had this oddly romantic sense that I would follow in my father's footsteps. You know, I my dad was incredibly important to me. My grandfather was in both my grandfather's were incredibly important to me. And I kind of always saw myself following in one of their footsteps, either a lawyer without knowing what that meant, or understanding why it was just, it was my, what my dad did a university Dean because that's what his father did. Or a psychoanalyst, which is what my other grandfather did. They were, you know, that's, that's what I wanted to do. And I always, even through college, I had that, that that romantic sense of romance, that romantic sense of the trajectory of my life, or what I thought that trajectory needed to be. Where was always there, I couldn't shake it, no matter how hard I tried, until I actually started playing drums. That was something that I always wanted to do. I always, you know, even as a little kid, I was always attracted not to the to the guitarist, or the, the lead singer, or, you know, you know, the pianist, I was always attracted to the guy sitting in the back, because the guy sitting in the back was always the one that you felt, or the one that I felt in my chest in my gut, right? And the drummer always seemed like, like the black sheep, and I honestly couldn't necessarily tell you Why that was but it always was in sports. I was in soccer. I'm still a soccer geek. I played soccer since I was three. Well, when you're a kid, everyone wants to be the striker the forward who scores the goals. I never did. I wanted to be the goalkeeper. Why? Because the goalkeeper got to wear the different shirt, the gloves. And the goalkeeper was always either the hero if he made the big save, or the goat, the bad goat, if he if he botched it and let a golden so drum, you know, the drums and being goalie in soccer. To me, they were always the same thing. All the glory, if you got it a complete, you know, complete disaster if you fuck it up. And for me, there was never I was never satisfied. I never enjoyed To me, the middle ground was boring. It was uninteresting. It's like it was like, it was just nothing and I wanted nothing to do with it. And so my parents encouraged me to play soccer. And as a kid, they wanted me to have nothing to do with the drums because to them, the drums weren't a real musical instrument playing the piano playing the guitar playing, you know, the violin or or saxophone. That was fine with them. Uh, playing drums wasn't and I didn't get to play drums until I got to college. And when I did, I mean, I remember the first time I did it, and that actually changed my life more than almost anything. Because I felt like I was meeting myself and meeting the person I always wanted to be for the first time. Do you remember that day? I totally I, I remember the day I decided no matter what I was going to find a drum set and teach myself. And I remember, I remember the day that I sat down behind a drum set with drumsticks in my hand for the first time. Absolutely. I remember my first gig. And it was all my first my freshman year and it changed everything. It literally changed the trajectory of my life. Marc Gutman 22:04 Where were you that first day you played the drums take us there. Andy Starr 22:08 It was January of 1998, we had just come back from winter break. And there was a senior on campus who was a drummer in a funk band, and the funk band played on campus. And when they would it was like the thing it was like the coolest thing ever. And he you know, kind of did your your typical rock star kind of you know, playing with his shirt off sunglasses cigarette dangling from his lips. And it just drove people nuts. And I was just like, I just need to do that I was super shy. I didn't drink I didn't party. And it was something I always wanted to chase. But it was also a way for me to stand out on my campus. And that was important to me, I wanted to have a good college experience. And up to that point, I really wasn't. And I knew who he was. It took me a semester to work up the courage to approach him. And I on on a January day we were we had been back on campus for like a few days. And I saw him walking and I ran out of the building. I chased him down. It was really, really cold. And I just said, “Hey, you're the drummer in that band. I would love to learn how to play the drums. Could I maybe play on your kit a couple times and see if I can do it?” And I thought it was just gonna say no. And he said, “Yeah, here's the room on campus where they're stored. Here's the code to get in play anytime you want.” And it took me like another week to work up the courage just to go and do that. And I had no idea what I was doing. There was YouTube didn't exist. So I couldn't watch videos on how to do it. But I had a pair of drumsticks that I had, you know, come into my possession along the way. And I sat down. And just for some reason I knew what to do. And it was it became addictive. And I played my very first gig with people a few months later, he had heard me practicing and they wanted to know who was playing. They said, You're really good. What do you want to jam with us? And that and that first gig, I remember the songs we played, was like it was just, it was transformative. And that's so that's what I wanted to do for a long time. I wanted to just be professional musician. I went to music school after college. I wanted to be in a rock band. That's what I wanted to do. Andy Starr 24:29 It didn't play out that way but— Marc Gutman 24:34 Yeah, so what happened? Andy Starr 24:35 Well, you know music piracy, the way the industry change and 02, 03 I wanted to be a musician but I didn't want to be a poor starving musician living out of a van driving six or 800 miles a night from gig to gig just to kind of build up that fan base. I just didn't want that. I wanted to be a musician, not a rock star. So, but I'm still a musician and if people when people ask me like to Talk about myself. I say, you know, I'm a musician, first of Philadelphia and second, you know, and I work in brand third. That is me. Marc Gutman 25:09 Nice. And so but you're not in Philadelphia right now are you? Andy Starr 25:12 No, I left Philly, I left early Jesus like, almost two years ago now. And I was making my way I'm very nomadic right now I was making my way to California through by way of Houston. My best friend lives here and I wanted to see him and I've just gotten stuck here with COVID. So, but I'm Philly, being from Philly is like, you know, other places. It's like an attitude. It's like a state of mind. So I can live it I can live and be anywhere but I'm Philly. Marc Gutman 25:44 Feel like being stuck in Houston, because of COVID is like a great next great like Wes Anderson movie, you know? sounds incredible to me. But so you, you leave college, you go to music school, you're pursuing your love of music, and you decide that you might have to get a real job. And so like, how do you get into like, this brand stuff. I mean, the path isn't always obvious. And I'm guessing it wasn't for you either. Andy Starr 26:14 It wasn't I still didn't know really what brand meant. Then I left music school, I was kind of like in a funk didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't want to be the lawyer that my parents wanted me to be. And my dad working in finance, he and I kind of had had a falling out a little bit we were we had a rocky thing for a few years. And he when he learned that I was going to leave music school, he asked if I would want to kind of learn his business, and maybe build a path, you know, a career and you know, some stability for myself. And I didn't care about the business, but I cared about him. So I did it and and I liked what we were doing. I liked it. That was that was just commercial finance and, and so that was going to be the trajectory of my life. And then it's a much longer story. But things happen professionally with our business and with the economy at the time. And we were professionally we were the victims of fraud. And when that happened, my dad basically lost his business. And I kind of lost a pathway, if you will. And I was very angry, like ferociously angry. And I wanted revenge. And I applied to law school. And I got in. And so I was prepared to do that. And at the time, I was I was in a relationship with a girl and she worked in she was a graphic designer. And she worked like in advertising. And her father was kind of a big name in branding in the branding world. And she she kind of had her own little consultancy, and she would kind of come home from the day and I was trying to study the law. And she was complaining about her clients. And I found myself talking with her about her clients. But I was talking about it from a strategic standpoint, not from a design standpoint. And I found that I was liking that a whole lot more than studying the law between that and her father kind of encouraged me to pursue that and not to pursue the law. And I got out of the like I left law school before it was too late. And I'm really glad I did. And I started kind of doing this loosely with her still not knowing really what Brandman still not really knowing that advertising was like a whole like industry and thing that I could go do professionally. And then one night she suggested that I read a book about branding. And it was called the brand gap. And I had never seen a book like it never heard of the author. But I started reading it and next thing I knew it was the next morning I'd stayed up all night reading it. I just couldn't stop and that experience was probably the other thing that changed my life trajectory. Right? It I just I saw and thought now is the thing I thought about everything. I thought about business I found about people without ever having had any grounding or experience in the concept of brand and literally overnight. I knew exactly what Brandman and from from that point. I knew not only was this interesting, and that I wanted to try it I knew that I could be really good at it. I just knew that I could. It all just made sense in it in some ways. It filled in some gaps for me It helps me think about myself and where I had been in why I was the way I was right and why I am the way I am so it just when that happened when she put brand gap in my hand like that was it. Everything became crystal clear. I ended up stalking Marty for a long time. Like I stalked him online. Found him he was at his his old agency new neutron. And I emailed him and I was just like, hey, read, you know, read the brand gap, I think you're a genius, this is what I want to do, will you be my mentor, please, I need a mentor. And I joke about it, but he basically sent me like a fuck off, I'm too busy email, he didn't use that language. But he that was basically what he was saying. But I didn't care, I kept sending him messages along the way, when I would get my first agency gig when I would get my, you know, produce my first you know, copywriting project, I would just send stuff to him just to see what he would say. And occasionally, he would respond with looks good, keep it up, you know, kind of your, your, your packaged, automated response, right. But I started to try to demonstrate to him that even though I didn't have the experience in the portfolio that a lot of other players in the space had, I thought about it differently. And I thought about it at a much higher and deeper, more impactful level. And he started to respond to me. And at one point, he invited me to come to France to a private workshop, and he was holding with, like, you know, executives, and like super high level designers. He's like, come to the Chateau. It'll be for a week, and you'll, it'll be crazy. It'll change your life. And I didn't go. And it's like the one regret I have professionally. Like, I didn't go to that. But, you know, fast forward Six years later, and look at what I'm doing with him and of all the people in the world who could be doing this episode. Marc Gutman 31:37 Brought to you by Wildstory. Wait, isn't that your company? It is. And without the generous support of Wildstory, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you, when you're not in the room. Wildstory helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve. So that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again. And this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com. And we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Crazy, right? And so like six years ago, you have no should I say resume or credential? in this space, you decide that? It's your calling, and it hits you. And how long before like Marty starts to even like, respond to you and you build that relationship. I mean, you kind of jump but I mean, how long are you like sending him like, Hey, I'm still here messages like, hey, like, I, you know, respond. Andy Starr 33:07 I sent him, I sent the very first message to him, like in November of 2009. And then I think I was sending him maybe like one a year, up until like 2014. And I had been basically agency hopping, you know, like shop hopping in between. And then in 24 2013, I sent him something. And that's when he responded with like, Hey, you should come to this workshop. And I, you know, I was like, I don't think I can I'm about to start a new agency gig. You know, and he was like, if you just buy the plane ticket and just come just you don't have don't pay the workshop fee, just just come for free. I would have been the most junior person there. I came this close. But I was starting a new agency gig and an agency I'd really wanted to land in. And I didn't think it was a good idea. And then I didn't I didn't email him. I didn't message him for several years. And then it was in 2017. So it was about three years ago, I had gotten tired of the agency world super tired of it. And I left and I was working at a startup. And they were the startup work in the event space. And they they they were an event business and they had physical space. And they wanted to kind of rebrand themselves, but they also wanted to evolve their product offering. And I started talking with the CEO and we were coming up with ideas of you know, how can we make this event space because at the time, like that was like super commoditized right? And we work was the was becoming the 800 pound gorilla, right? And so there was this idea of using this existing space not just for corporate meetings and events but for education and to come to To fill the schedule, with gurus across different disciplines, leading workshops, that was already happening, but here was a space and we could kind of reposition this business around that. Well, that was cool. But that wasn't wholly unique. And I had this idea to go one step further and find like high level gurus who are already delivering workshops and educational content, and to kind of bring them into this mix. And to do that in partnership with a local business school like a local MBA program. And the idea would be that the MBA program would underwrite a certain of these workshops, right? And allow participants to not just take the workshop, but to earn academic credit towards that schools MBA, that wasn't really being done anywhere, by anyone or any school. And so we decided, like that was, that was a cool idea. We wanted to change it. But we had two challenges. We had to find the gurus, but we also had to find an MBA program willing to do that. So we chased the MBA program first, because to me, that was going to be the bigger lift. But fortunately, a local Philadelphia MBA program, and we had a connection, we had a meeting, we had, we made a proposal to the dean, and we said, let's just give it a shot. Let's do a one on one professional Ed, you know, adult education workshop in a specific topic that we all agree on. And the MBA program will give or make credit available. Let's just see, the dean just was like, Okay, done. Let's try it. Okay. And when we were walking out of the conference room, someone said, by the way, what's the topic? And who's going to be the subject matter expert? We didn't know. And I literally just blurted out, how about brand branding that's relevant to business. And no MBA program really offers that. It's a great, great idea. And who will lead it? And I was like, there's a guy who wrote some books. And they said, Great, set it up. And then I so then I sent Marty an email for the first time in years. And I reminded him who I was. And I told him, here's what we're doing. Here's what we want to try. We want to try it with you. And I really didn't expect a response. I got a response in like 30 minutes. And he's like, let's talk and Marty doesn't like to like do things by email, or by phone, he likes to Skype, or he likes to see you. And I was like, Oh my God, I've never done that before. I've never spoken to him Skype, whatever, we set it up. And we set up a 30 minute kind of intro. That's what I thought it was going to be. It was like a two and a half hour like, thing back and forth. And my entire team was like, behind my laptop, like, like listening. And I'm just jamming with Master. And he said, like, in his entire career, people have come to him with ideas and wanting to partner and said, this was the best idea that anyone had brought to him, like better than lynda.com wanting him to like come in and do that better than LinkedIn learning, wanting him to come in and like be exclusive is like this was it. Okay, crazy. Fast forward a little bit. We were getting everything set up the MBA, there was a problem with the MBA program we pulled out. And then the the startup just it wasn't it wasn't working. They wanted to go in a different direction. They weren't funded properly. And so I bounced, but Marty and I kept talking, we would email and kind of we started asking ourselves like, what if, like, how about, you know, could we blah, blah, blah. And one day, he just said, Look, if they weren't willing or able to do it, why don't you and I just do this ourselves? Why don't you and I just try it? Okay, I flew out to Santa Barbara. He invited me to his home. We locked ourselves in his home studio for like three or four days. And we went through our own process that we teach. We did it on ourselves. And we had this thing basically, in the can, like before I left. And here we are. Yeah. And so Marc Gutman 39:30 Take yourself back to that time in Santa Barbara. I mean, what do you think? And are you just looking around like, I can't believe this is happening like this, you know, this, you know, as they say, the this escalated quickly, right? Like all the sudden, you're in partnership, and I know it's that you've built a relationship over time. And I and I really don't want to minimize that because I think it's a huge thing that I want people to take away from this that you you built a relationship you stayed in front of Marty and when the time was right, it was right for both of you, but It is you're in Santa Barbara, and you're building this thing and you're like, we're doing this thing. Are you just kind of looking around like you're, you mentioned, you're in his studio. I mean, this is, you know, I think for any brand, or you have his books on your desk, I mean, mine, I just put mine just to the side here. But you know, I've typically got stacks of them. I mean, to me, that would be like, whaaatt? Andy Starr 40:17 So I had met him, he, he flew to Philadelphia, while we, you know, after we kind of agreed we were going to try with that startup, he flew to Philadelphia, because he wanted to meet me and the team at the time. And he, he gave us he basically did his brand flip workshop, like, for like, almost nothing, he just wanted to meet us. And so I had the starstruck thing when I picked him up at the airport. That was like, that was bananas. I was like, you know, just a little kid. But when he invited me to out to his home, that's when, for me, it became something different in the coolest thing that we did, there was, you know, I'm in his is his studio. It's like, the kind of studio I would want for myself, you know, and he has, like, on his bookshelf, he has, you know, extra copies of all of his books, and then all of the design and business and strategy books that have influenced him, right. And I'm literally going like book by book, and then I get up to the shelf with extra copies of the brand gap, right? I mean, this is so wild. So out, and they were all like super pristine, right? Except for one copy. There was one copy that was all just beat up and folded and and there were rabbit ears, and there were little postage sticking out of it. And I thought like, that's really weird. Like, why is that up there? like is that his copy? Was that like a is that a first edition? Whatever, I take it down. I'm looking at it. And I'm just, I'm holding it in my oily, you know, hands. And I'm just what is it? And he walked out of the office for a few minutes. And that's when I was doing this. And when it comes back in, I just turned to him. And I'm like, what's the story with this book? Because it's not pristine, like sentimental value. And he's like, Oh, look at the cover. And I looked at the cover and it said Steve's copy hands off, and I'm like, I don't get it. Who Steve and he just so nonchalantly says well, that Steve Jobs copy. I was like what I'm holding Steve Jobs copy of the brand gap beat up folded marked, you know, rabbit ear, you know, notes, you know, that for me? Was that was another thing like, this guy wants to like be my partner. He wants to do this with me. And that would that's that was really kind of like the first time with Marty that I felt way out of my element. Like, this should not be me. I'm not I'm I should not be the one to do this. It made me It made me like nervous. I was like genuinely, like, kind of out of sorts about it. And then we sat down and started going, you know, through the thing, and I'm kind of a control freak. I like to be in control when when I know what I'm doing. And I feel confident about what I'm doing. I can I can drive the train. And I was just like, no way. I was like, dude, you're in charge. Like, you lead the way. I'm going to follow I'm going to do this with you. But like, you know, Master apprentice, you know, Jedi Padawan like I'm totally okay with that. And when we started going through it, I thought I knew things right? You know how like, you can read the books and you can have your successes and you can have your confidence. You You think you know your shit, right? You know, I know all my rudiments on the drums and like, you know, I'm pretty decent drummer. But then you meet like a real German you're like that cat is just a bad fucking dude. When when we kicked it off that morning, I was just like, Whoa, and I regret not like recording the entire thing for posterity. Because it was that bad. It was that like, Oh, alright, so this is what this is what it's really like when the master does it. And I mean, like, the whole thing was like a learning experience. And I was like, I was drunk by like, the end of the first day. Marc Gutman 44:19 Yeah. And, you know, you were wondering, like, hey, how could this be me? But it is you so in working with Marty like what makes him a great partner? Andy Starr 44:30 Marty's no bullshit. That's the best thing about him. Because, you know, even better than his experience and his talent than his intelligence and his intellectual curiosity. He reads more than almost anyone I know. But he is no bullshit. He's no bullshit with me. He's no bullshit with our students. He calls it exactly the way he sees it. And it's funny, we've actually had disagreements about that. When we get feedback in our class, I'm an advocate For a slightly gentler approach, I don't think that there's a need to be super blonde just for the sake of, you know, minimizing bullshit. And we've, we've disagreed on that, but I've come around to really appreciate that, and have have just the most the utmost respect for his candor is the elegance that he provides feedback, and expertise, the the elegance with which he shares his mastery with other people. Um, and that was no different for me. I just had the luxury of having it one on one in a very intimate setting. Right. That's, that's the thing about Marty, I'm just an app, and look at the space we work in, look at how much bullshit there is. I mean, I've worked at agencies, and I've worked with people who literally have this philosophy that we are in the bullshit business. Right. And that's hard. That's hard to swallow, right? For me, at least. And to realize and then experience that the mass the guy who wrote the book, The master himself, is completely, I mean, completely anti bullshit. I was I was just like this, this is just too good to be true. just too good to be true. But it's not. It's just too good. Marc Gutman 46:34 So, no, it is too good. And you know, to flip the coin a little bit, what makes you a great partner. What do you think? Either you can address that from either what you think or what do you think Marty would say? Andy Starr 46:48 I don't see the weird thing is, it's not that I'm uncomfortable asking that. I just don't know. It's not I'm not the type of person who typically answers that. I would say, I think one of the things that makes me a good partner is that I take it, it's because I follow some of the some of the advice that I and guidance that I try to contribute to others, including, I take it seriously. But I'm not too serious about it, I think I have a very healthy idea of what matters and what doesn't. For myself, for Marty, for us, and for our tribe. I'm very patient. And I think I think I'm hyper patient. And I'm, I am, I am extremely passionate about what we're doing. And I know that sounds that may all sound cliched, but one of the things I've learned is that, if that's not if that stuff isn't there, it doesn't really matter what you're doing, right. And the last thing I want to do is be a hypocrite and I couldn't really live with myself, if people thought that I or Marty or we were hypocrites and what we what we preach what we teach. So I think that from what I think for money, I'm also a balance. You know, we talk about personality types and, and roles. And I think that Marty and I complement each other really well, there are things that he can do that I can't, and I don't want to try, there are things that he can do that I can do that I just don't want to do that I don't like to do, or that I'm just not very good at. And there are ways that he thinks that I don't where I can. And I would say the flip is just as true. And I think that we balanced and complete and round each other out really well like that, you know, like looking at it from 80,000 feet. He's a creative and a designer and i'm not i'm a strategist, right? He's He's strategic. I am creative, but we kind of we recognize where we belong, and we recognize our lanes. And he's not as territorial as you. Some people might expect him to be. He is and on all things creative. I defer to him. And he he, I think for him, I'm also going back to the word, you know, going back to the label provocateur, I'm more provocative than he is. I am, I think I'm definitely more brash, I'm a little more raw. And, and maybe he likes that because he doesn't need to be that anymore. He doesn't want to be that anymore. Maybe it's just not enough, you know him. But I think we just we just complement each other really well. We look at the world basically the same way. We never really had an argument about anything. We have disagreements, but we're both patient enough and I am super respectful of his seniority to me. Super respectful, and I value that, and I want him to and I tell him I want him to be the master, not just for others, but for me too. And, and allow me to learn while we're doing this. And I have every time he and I jam on something, I learned something new, which is bananas. And I think all of that makes me a partner that works for him with him. And he's had partners in the past, I'd be curious to hear what he thinks of me as a partner. But that's the thing, I'm not going to let my ego get in the way I want to know. And I want to be a good partner going forward. And even when he takes a step back, and I have to decide how Level C c kind of moves on, I'm going to want other partners, and I want to be a good partner for them. So you know, but I hate talking about myself that way. Like, I hate it. Good question, though. Marc Gutman 50:56 Good, good. Good. And so, you know, as you talk about Level C, like, what, let's talk about that for a second, like, why does brand matter? And why does Level C matter? Like, what are you trying to do with this thing? Andy Starr 51:09 Brand matters, because brand, is brand is the people's connection to business, right? brand is what lets come what lets the company, and the people actually come together. So when a company talks about the people, the people, the people, the customers, it's all just talk, it's the brand that actually makes that real, that makes that consequential, if you will, and so brand should matter to the business world, if they actually care about the consumer, the people, the tribe, the audience, whatever you want to call them, brand should matter to people, because it's through brand that people can influence and change business. Okay. And what we're trying to do with Level C, is we are trying to, we're trying to put in, or, depending on your perspective, restore the role of brand, into the C suite, to restore the role of brand, into a position of influence, on the business side, a position of relevance to the business and the consumer side, to change the conversation. Right, there's a lot of conversation, especially recently, about kind of the role of brand versus marketing. You know, there are a lot of people that believe that, you know, brand is a part of marketing. And we believe that you know, marketing is actually a part of brand. And that's a red herring, I definitely don't want to go down, go down that path here. But we want to influence the way people think about this stuff. And we believe that when they think about it, when they learn, and they think and they process, and then they practice, real change can happen. And you know, here's the thing, we don't we're not trying to change the world. We're not maybe we're one of the few brands out there that is comfortable saying that we're not looking to change the world, we're looking to change a part of business, because we do believe that if you change business enough, then the world can be changed. So that's what we're trying to do. We're, you know, we're creating an army of people who who get this stuff, right. And maybe army isn't the right word. Maybe tribe isn't even right, the right word. We're just recreating it, we're creating the opportunity for people who work in this space, to get it, evangelize it and bring the rest of us forward. Marc Gutman 53:40 Yeah, and I couldn't agree more. I mean, I, you know, I've spoken on this before, but, you know, I believe that this idea of business is just this one big story that we all have invented and buy into. And if, if you hold that to be true, then that means that we have the power to influence it and change it. And I also think there's something that's like, just crazy going on right now. And I'd love to get your take on this. You know, even thinking about like, brand, you know, the history of brand, but like, it's my observation that people are looking to brands now in ways that they never have before, right? They're looking to brands for how do you feel about COVID? For example, how do you feel about racial inequality? How do you feel about politics, you know, in by asking the brand that they want information that it's that well, it says like, well, then if you feel this way, then I feel this way, it's a direct reflection. And I think there's just this crazy thing happening and I don't know if you're seeing that if that's if that feels new to you, but like this idea that like, even the brands I work with, they're like, Well, what do we say like how do we act you know, and now it's a bigger conversation because you know, we can get into like values and your beliefs and you know, hold true to those but I just find this, this kind of forefront of brand and the way people are looking to brand to to comment on the world so that it tells them how they feel about the world. Just this, you know that and I believe in that, like, how the customer felt about the world was it seemed to be that like it was, it's been like that for a long time. It's like the subtext. It's like, it's like, like, what am I? What's my status? Or like, how do I see myself? But now it just seems like way more overt and direct in terms of like, what people are demanding from brands in terms of worldview? Andy Starr 55:19 I mean, it's it's tribalism, right? You can boil all that down into tribalism, or identity, right? Who am I? What do I stand for? What do I want? You know, what matters to me? You know, I think it's a different conversation, I think it reflects a lot of other things, the fracturing of the human of human identity over the last, you know, 20 plus years, and I know, it's, it goes back way longer than that, but, you know, the way the world has changed in the past 20 years, the way we've all become, you know, immediately connected, right, you know, everything can happen. Now. I can talk to someone, you know, we had a student in a thing this morning from Nepal. Like I can talk to him in a second, right. Um, and so I think that that's created a kind of a sense of urgency, maybe that's not the not exactly what I mean. But in terms of, in terms of clarity, about where you stand. And so when people, you know, ask the question, what does the brand stand for? Right? You know, what, what is what is I don't I'm making it up, what is Warby Parker's stance on Black Lives Matter. It's not so much that they care about Warby Parker's stance that is that this is what I'm just speaking for myself what I believe, I don't think it's so much that they care about Warby Parker's stance, I think it's Warby Parker's stance helps frame a little bit more of the context for themselves. How where do they see themselves in relation to Black Lives Matter and Warby Parker and apple and Nike and Starbucks and Virgin and pick a brand? Right? Because really, really, at the end of the day, do you think that people really give a shit about most brands? I don't. I don't. I think that brand loyalty is almost like a misnomer. Like, do I love my iPhone? Yeah. Do I love my Apple watch? Sure. Do. I love my MacBook Pro? Absolutely. And my loyal to the Apple brand? No, I don't care that much. I just don't care about me. I care about my friends, my family I care about my community. I you know, I care about who's at the top of the barclays premier league table. I don't really care about Apple's brand. If I hear that Apple has a position where has done something that I don't agree with? Does it anger me annoying me? piss me off? Yeah, it does. But mainly just because I wish that they could see it the way I see it. But I don't I don't. I don't look at it the way I know a lot of people look at it. You know, when I have a client and they, they they'll ask me, you know, how should we respond to this, I'm always going to tell them the truth and not my truth. But what I strategically believe, is best for the business and the brand. And that's always a tricky kind of gray area. But I just I just don't think people care. I I struggled to believe that people genuinely care. And people may say, I really care. And they may they may believe that they may feel that way. And I and I, I won't disrespect or deny that that happens. I won't. But I think deep down maybe you know, it's it's more ID than ego. I don't think it matters to them as much as it's been made out to. Okay. But again, if you believe if you believe me when I say if you believe in the idea that the brand is what connects people to the business, well, then what the brand stands for their values, their their position on a given issue, political, social, whatever, then it does matter. For better or for worse. I just don't think that the brand can control it as much as they think they can. Right? Because they certainly can't control their audience. They can influence their audience. They can try to anticipate what the majority of their audience believes or feels about a specific issue. But, you know, when it comes to control, and it doesn't exist, it just doesn't influence exist, but even that has limit so I roll my eyes a lot and when when I when I see the question, you know where the debate happening? It's I'm just like, who really cares? That's different from caring about the issue. I definitely care about the issues, I feel very strongly about the same issues. I just don't care about what the brand thinks, or what the brand says they stand for. I just don't. Marc Gutman 1:00:17 Hmm. So to challenge you on that, if Apple and by the way, this is theory, everybody, if Apple actually denounced black lives matter if they had a more not inclusive policy towards LGBTQ and like, you know, did not recognize those folks that would have no bearing in your purchase of their product. Andy Starr 1:00:45 It probably would. And not probably would, it would. But that's not again, it's not so much because of what Apple stands for. It's for what I stand for. Correct? Yeah, that's, that's why and again, I, I recognize that what I just said, may may initially resonate with some people like why wait, he doesn't care? No. I care very, very much. I have extremely strong feelings that I believe are in the majority. By the way, I think that I stand with most people on most issues I do. And because they matter so much, to me, that's what influences my decision. That's what influences my behavior in one way or another. If he here's another example. Um, I remember, I think it was a couple years ago, the I think it was the CEO of barilla. Pasta, I was kind of outed for making, you know, homophobic remarks, right? Mm hmm. I'm like a pasta. I basically eat spaghetti every day of my life. and up to that point, Burleigh, was the brand that I like to make. I haven't had real essence. And I never will. Not because because of what he said, but that's not what influenced my decision is because of how I feel. That's how strongly I feel about it. Right. And, and there's a difference. I think it's subtle, it's nuanced. It's complicated. It's not simple. But if someone if Apple so if Apple basically denounced Black Lives Matter, and people boycott Apple, it's more because of how those people feel for themselves about the issue. That's what I'm saying. Marc Gutman 1:02:33 I got it. Got it. Well, Andy, I could talk to you forever. This has gone super fast. And as we near the end of our time together, I'd love for you to think back to that time when you first walked into that music room and sat down at those drums and maybe hit the drum once or twice and had that charge of electricity. And if that Andy ran into you today, what do you think he'd say? Andy Starr 1:03:04 What do you think he would say about me now? Yeah, I have no idea. Wow, I've never been asked that before. I've always been asked the opposite. What would I say to Andy? That Andy, then I, I like to think that he would say, I'm sorry, I have no I'm like, stunned by that, that. That question is going to haunt me for a while. And I don't I don't even want to say I have to get back to you on that. Although I know I'm going to I have no idea dude. What? What is Wow, what an amazing question. Andy Starr 1:04:00 You can see my face and you can i'm, i'm i'm just like I can I can I ask you? Why did you ask me that question? Marc Gutman 1:04:17 Part of it is I want to know if your younger self would have been impressed or would have been interested or intrigued or curious or a myriad of other thoughts about how your life turned out and where you're at today and where you're going. Huh? And if that young Andy who is probably thinking, Oh my gosh, I'm about to become a life long professional musician. I would have thought like, Hey, you know, this is just as good playing music in a different way. Andy Starr 1:04:48 I think this is just more of me now. Then. What I would have been back then. But I I like to think or maybe I just hope that he would have have asked me Is it a good gig or is it a good deal? And without hesitation I I'd say it's the best gig. That is the best gig. This is a people business dude. Like it's more about people than it is about business. the business side of Level C like it's like the least fun thing that I do. The most fun thing that I do is meeting people like you meeting you know, meeting people like Mata Marina do meeting people like Matt Davies, Chris lateral Layla Casanova. I'm, you know, 300 more than 300 people, awesome human beings who work in the human side of business, from like, 4050 countries so far. That's, that's like the best gig in the world, the best gig. Marc Gutman 1:06:00 And that is Andy Starr of Level C. Well, what did you think? Drinking from the firehose yet? I could have talked with Andy for hours, but I think we've covered quite a bit of ground and our time today. A big heartfelt thank you to Andy Starr, and the team at Level C. We will link to all things any star in Level C in the show notes. If you're interested in sharpening your brand chops, I highly recommend you check out their masterclasses. Well, that's the show. Until next time, make sure to visit our website www.wildstory.com where you can subscribe to the show in iTunes, Stitcher or via RSS so you'll never miss an episode. A lot big stories and I cannot lie. You other storytellers can't deny.

In today's episode, I have an amazing conversation with one of the true leading brand innovators in the industry - Marty Neumeier. Marty has worked with so many innovative companies to advance their brands and culture and written many books on the topic that I, and millions of others, have fallen in love with. With empathy being such a strong thread through everything he talks about, we discuss the role of empathy and good design in creating a charismatic and authentic brand.  Key Takeaways:You have to have empathy for your audience - but then you need to test things.There is a right way and a wrong way to test creative designs and brand strategies!Empathy is a marketing metaskill that  enables you to make better creative decisions and campaigns.You have to be okay with accepting feedback and checking your ego if your ideas don't resonate with the customer. Customer feedback helps you to be a better creative. “As creative people, we fall in love with our ideas.. Empathy is the starting place. But then you have to prove your ideas work. You have to make sure your compass is accurate.” - Marty Neumeier About Marty Neumeier: Marty Neumeier is an author, designer, and brand advisor whose mission is to bring the principles and processes of design to business. His series of “whiteboard” books includes Zag, named one of the “top hundred business books of all time,” and The Designful Company, a bestselling guide to nonstop innovation. His first book, The Brand Gap, has been read by more than 23 million people since 2003. A sequel, The Brand Flip, lays out a new process for building brands in the age of social media and customer dominance. His latest book, Scramble, is a “business thriller” about how to build a brand quickly with agile strategy. In 1996, Neumeier founded Critique magazine, the first journal about design thinking. He has worked with innovative companies such as Apple, Netscape, Symantec, Kraft Foods, Adobe, Google, Microsoft, Riot Games, and Capital One to help advance their brands and cultures. Today he serves as Director of CEO Branding for Liquid Agency in Silicon Valley, and teaches a five-tier program on brand mastery through his company Level C. Neumeier travels extensively as a workshop leader and speaker on the topics of brand, design, and innovation. He and his wife divide their time between California and France.  Connect with Marty Neumeier:  Level C masterclasses: levelc.orgPersonal website: martyneumeier.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/martyneumeier/  Don't forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy  Connect with Maria: Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.comLearn more about Maria's brand strategy work and books: Red-Slice.comHire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-RossLinkedIn: Maria RossInstagram: @redslicemariaTwitter: @redsliceFacebook: Red Slice

In today's episode, I have an amazing conversation with one of the true leading brand innovators in the industry - Marty Neumeier. Marty has worked with so many innovative companies to advance their brands and culture and written many books on the topic that I, and millions of others, have fallen in love with. With empathy being such a strong thread through everything he talks about, we discuss the role of empathy and good design in creating a charismatic and authentic brand.  Key Takeaways:You have to have empathy for your audience - but then you need to test things.There is a right way and a wrong way to test creative designs and brand strategies!Empathy is a marketing metaskill that  enables you to make better creative decisions and campaigns.You have to be okay with accepting feedback and checking your ego if your ideas don't resonate with the customer. Customer feedback helps you to be a better creative. “As creative people, we fall in love with our ideas.. Empathy is the starting place. But then you have to prove your ideas work. You have to make sure your compass is accurate.” - Marty Neumeier About Marty Neumeier: Marty Neumeier is an author, designer, and brand advisor whose mission is to bring the principles and processes of design to business. His series of “whiteboard” books includes Zag, named one of the “top hundred business books of all time,” and The Designful Company, a bestselling guide to nonstop innovation. His first book, The Brand Gap, has been read by more than 23 million people since 2003. A sequel, The Brand Flip, lays out a new process for building brands in the age of social media and customer dominance. His latest book, Scramble, is a “business thriller” about how to build a brand quickly with agile strategy. In 1996, Neumeier founded Critique magazine, the first journal about design thinking. He has worked with innovative companies such as Apple, Netscape, Symantec, Kraft Foods, Adobe, Google, Microsoft, Riot Games, and Capital One to help advance their brands and cultures. Today he serves as Director of CEO Branding for Liquid Agency in Silicon Valley, and teaches a five-tier program on brand mastery through his company Level C. Neumeier travels extensively as a workshop leader and speaker on the topics of brand, design, and innovation. He and his wife divide their time between California and France.  Connect with Marty Neumeier:  Level C masterclasses: levelc.orgPersonal website: martyneumeier.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/martyneumeier/  Don't forget to download your free guide! Discover The 5 Business Benefits of Empathy: http://red-slice.com/business-benefits-empathy  Connect with Maria: Get the podcast and book: TheEmpathyEdge.comLearn more about Maria's brand strategy work and books: Red-Slice.comHire Maria to speak at your next event: Red-Slice.com/Speaker-Maria-RossLinkedIn: Maria RossInstagram: @redslicemariaTwitter: @redsliceFacebook: Red Slice

What if you were given the ability to learn from one of the leading brand experts in the country? Pull up a seat because we get to do just that in our episode with Marty Neumeier! Marty is a world-renowned author and leading experts on how to build your business & brand strategy. He has worked with big-name companies such as Apple, Netscape, Symantec, Kraft Foods, Adobe, Google, Microsoft, Riot Games, and Capital One to help advance their brands and cultures. Today he is sharing some of his tactics and wisdom with us in Episode 31 of Baby Got Backstory. This is one of the most informative and inspiring stories you will ever hear.  What we're talking about Marty Neumeier's Story: From Grade School to College Graduate The Path from Young Career Man to Leading Branding Expert Teaching The Branding Theory  Marty Neumeier's Story: From Grade School to College Graduate At the tender age of 7, Marty announced to his 2nd grade class that he wanted to be a “commercial artist”. Marty's mother had gone to art school, and taught him to draw at a young age. It was with this training that he became the school's artist. This love and skill for art and design led to a college education at Art Center in Los Angeles, CA.  The Path from Young Career Man to Leading Branding Expert  Early in his career, Marty wisely realized that you couldn't be a high end, successful graphic designer if you didn't have control over the words you use in your layouts. He learned copywriting to add to his list of esteemed skills so his designs would blend seamlessly with the graphics. As his career progressed, he also discovered that some of his projects were more successful than others, which led to the “branding” design. After he put his theories, skills, and expertise to work, his work took off! At the age of 40, Marty catapulted himself into a leading expert. Teaching The Branding Theory Marty is so confident in how his branding strategy works that he said you'd probably be better off taking a CBO (chief branding officer) position than starting your own company. You'd probably make more money! Your reputation can have value beyond the product you're producing. When you have a specialty that no one else has & its valuable to companies, and you can prove it, you have no competition really. This is the essence of building your branding strategy. Are you ready to take your brand to the next level, and learn from the best of the best?   LINKS MENTIONED Level C Brand School Scramble by Marty Neumeier The Brand Gap by Marty Neumeier Zag by Marty Neumeier Metaskills by Marty Neumeier Level C Branding School SPONSOR Wildstory TIMESTAMPS 9:13 - 9:25 (12 sec MN) Why is it that sometimes my work...it was accidentally on strategy. 11:48 - 12:38 (50 sec MN) The more I started working in this area....in order to be successful together. 16:24 - 17:13 (49 sec MN) It's hard to keep up with what's happening...some really interesting ways of looking at their work. 32:03 - 32:33 (30 sec MN) Branding is more about strategy...It really rises to a higher level in a company or business. 35:00 - 35:39 (39 sec MN) The stuff that makes customers loyal...That area of work is called branding. QUOTES Branding is a field that brings business people and creative people together. - MN  A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product, service, or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. - Marc Gutman Branding deserves a spot right next to the CEO. That level of leadership has to be all about brand. - MN We're in a paradigm shift caused by the pandemic and collapse of the economy that's going to shake everything up. It's going to shake the snow globe & create a lot of opportunity for people that can embrace change and find a place in this new future whatever it looks like. It's going to be the future we've been trying to make happen, but we got stuck because of tradition. - MN Long term strategy is helping customers become who they want to become. And if you can do that, you'll be very valuable to your customers and they will stick with you beyond reason. - MN Most people don't know that branding is more than logos. It's much more than that. MN A company has to have a purpose beyond making money today if they want to succeed. - MN Podcast Transcript Marty Neumeier 0:02 Who's gonna work for a company that just wants to, you know, increase shareholder demands? It's just boring. It makes you want to take a take a shower. After you come back from work, there's nothing there for anybody. No, we live in a world of human beings. So we want to think that what we're doing has value to people real value and that we're leaving the world a better place because of what we're doing. Marc Gutman 0:30 podcasting, Boulder, Colorado. This is the baby got backstory podcast, we dive into the story behind the story of today's most inspiring storytellers, creators and entrepreneurs. I like big backstories and I cannot lie. I am your host, Marc Gutman, Marc Gutman, and on today's episode of Baby got backstory. How one of the world's most famous branding experts didn't even Start that part of his career until the ripe young age of 40. Now, if you like and enjoy the show, please take a minute or two to rate and review us over at iTunes. iTunes uses these as part of the algorithm that determines ratings on the apple charts. And ratings help us to build an audience which then helps us continue to produce the show. On today's episode, we are talking to one of my heroes, branding expert, Marty neumeier. Much of what I do every day, and aspire to do comes from the teachings of Marty. I have consumed his thoughts, his books, and his philosophies, and I consider him a living legend. Most people in marketing, not just branding on at least one of his distinctive white books with the big black type across the front. And for those of you who don't know Marty Neumeier. He's an author, designer and brand advisor whose mission is to bring the principles and processes of design to business. His series of Whiteboard books include zag, which was named one of the top hundred business books of all time in the design full company, a best selling guide to non stop innovation. His first book, the brand gap, and the one that I've come to love and many of my branding colleagues have come to love has been read by more than 23 million people since 2003. A sequel, the brand flip lays out a new process for building brands in the age of social media and customer dominance. And his latest book scramble is a business thriller about how to build a brand quickly with agile strategy. In 1996, Marty founded critique magazine, the first journal about design thinking, think about that he was one of the first to be talking about design thinking. He has worked with innovative companies such as Apple, Netscape, Symantec, Kraft Foods, Adobe, Google, Microsoft, Riot Games, and Capital One to help advance their brands and cultures. Marty was gracious to drop in for a long interview on the baby gap backstory Podcast, where we discuss the importance of brand and branding, how branding ads and during value to a business and why those businesses that focus on brand will be successful on the other side of this pandemic. And those that don't are going to be in trouble. Our conversation ranges from Marty's early days of branding, The Beatles, Leonardo da Vinci ageism in the creative field, and what the future might look like for all of us. Marty says that branding is a field that brings business people and creative people together, and I couldn't agree more. And here is Marty Neumeier. This episode brought to you by wild story. Wait, isn't that your company it is. And without the generous support of wild story, this show would not be possible. A brand isn't a logo or a tagline, or even your product. A brand is a person's gut feeling about a product service or company. It's what people say about you when you're not in the room. Wild story helps progressive founders and savvy marketers build purpose driven brands that connect their business goals with the customers they want to serve, so that both the business and the customer needs are met. This results in crazy, happy, loyal customers that purchase again and again, and this is great for business. If that sounds like something you and your team might want to learn more about, reach out @ www.wildstory.com and we'd be happy to tell you more. Now back to our show. Marty, you're an acclaimed author having written several books on the topic of branding books like the brand flip zag, and the brand gap, you are considered an expert on the topic of branding. And you're the director of CEO branding for liquid agency in Silicon Valley. And you also teach a five tier program on brand mastery through your own company level C. So we do have a sense and an idea of where the story is going. But what I really want to know is where did it start? Marty? Were you always into branding and branding? The idea of branding as a young kid? Marty Neumeier 5:34 I was not I didn't know that word existed, you know, but I did get into communications pretty early, at least in my head. I was seven years old when I announced to my second grade class that I wanted to be a commercial artist. And everyone said, Well, you know what, and the only reason I even knew that job title existed is because my mother went to art school. She had taught me how to draw. And I took to it pretty well and became known for that. And by the second grade, I was the artist for the school. So that has a huge effect. Huge pull for kids when they're, you know, they're told at a young age that they're special for something. And so, I think it was right then I said, You know what, that's what, that's what I am. And all I have to do is wait long enough to be one. Marc Gutman 6:28 At that time, what was a commercial artist? What does that even mean? Marty Neumeier 6:32 I think, you know, I thought it was like an illustrator. You know, someone who does illustrations for magazine covers and for anything signs, signage, trademarks, anything like that. I had no idea, you know, but I knew drawing was involved. And I could do that. So as soon as I was old enough, I got myself into art school at Art Center in Los Angeles. And that's that was my gonna be my track and somewhere Along the way, I just realized I think was probably 20 years old, maybe even a little younger, that you could not be a really successful high end graphic designer, if you didn't have control over the words that were that you used in your, you know, on your in your layouts and so forth. Because that you can't separate graphics and communication in the word part of communication. And I was having trouble finding copywriters to work with that I could work with as equal partners, you know, because the way copywriters worked in those days is they thought about the, the intent of the communication and they wrote some things and they handed it to you and you would kind of illustrate it or lay it out as an ad or article or you know, whatever it is, and that isn't really what I wanted to ask not the way I wanted to do it. So I wanted to you know what Work with copy people from a team together. And I, you know, I tried to make that work. But eventually I figured it was easier to learn how to do the copywriting part myself, I could go a lot faster, and there'd be no gap between the words and the pictures, they would be they would each contribute, contributed equally. And so that led me to the writing side of communication. And I just kept doing that and, you know, built a studio, doing all that kind of graphic design and some advertising, and reports, corporate identity, all the kinds of things that could make money for designers. And it wasn't until I don't know probably I was 40 or something like that, that I realized that there was a gap between what I thought good work was and what a company thought good work was and the gap. The reason for the gap is that they didn't know what I was trying to achieve or if it was any good at all. And I really didn't know what the business was trying to achieve. I just knew my little part of it. And sometimes I would, you know, get lucky and the company would prosper because of the work I did. And I always thought, Well, why, why is it that sometimes my work is really valuable to a company? And other times? It's not? Well, it happened that when it when it worked for the company, it was because it had it accidentally was on strategy. So I started just thinking about what is strategy and what is business? What's the difference between business strategy and design strategy? Can it can it all be one thing? And so that led me to the world of branding and starting with positioning those great books by trout and Reese, starting in 1970. They opened up a whole world for me talking about the the strategic intent of communication of advertising and marketing and so forth, which I didn't know existed. So you know, because designers what, what do we do? We, we look at the work that other designers have done through the ages. And we want to fit into that continuum. So we try to do this great, exciting, inspirational work, but not really, with with regard to what companies are trying to achieve. Of course, we think we are, but unless you're really intimate with what a company or a CEO is trying to do, you're guessing a bit. So I needed to look into that. So that was a lot of reading a lot of experimentation. And, you know, nothing's easy. It takes years and years to be good at something. So but I would say I was probably 40 by the time I really saw the problem. Marc Gutman 10:40 Right. So that's have so many questions. All right. Thank you for sharing that. I mean, I mean, just that one alone, like I think so often in our careers, you know, we think we either have to figure it all out really early or that by 40. We should have figured it all out. It's really interesting to me that it like what you're best known for at least how often Know you, and you've been a huge influence on my career didn't even really happen until you were 40. And beyond that, that just like blows my mind Marty Neumeier 11:09 and mostly beyond. And I think we're really started to become clear to me is when I was I was probably 50. At this point, I decided I would publish a magazine about the thinking behind graphic design was really the first journal about design thinking, focused on graphic design thinking. It was called critique magazine. And so critique was filled with interviews and articles about famous graphic designers and advertising people and the thought processes behind their work. And the more I started working in this area, I realized the less we actually knew about what we were doing, we really didn't know what we were doing. There's a lot of kind of mythology about What makes good design what makes good advertising, good marketing, but it wasn't there was no framework for it, there was no structure, you know, that would lead you to the solution that would really drive a business forward. And then I realized what what that framework is its branding. It's the kind of playing field that brings business people and creative people together, we can all agree that this is a game worth playing. But we have to know our parts, we have to play our roles, we have to take our positions on the field and know what we're doing and where we're headed, in order to be successful together. And so when I figured that out, I ice pretty much changed my whole orientation to my work and stop trying to help graphic designers understand business, which is what I was doing with the magazine. It's like, you know, pay attention to business because this is where you this is where you're going. work takes flight, you know from you, you really have to understand what you're doing for companies to be successful in this. Most designers didn't want to hear that they really happy just doing the work the way they wanted to do. But so I, I decided to turn the other way towards business people and say, Hey, business people, CEOs, marketing people, design can do tons of stuff for you have no idea how powerful it is, if you just knew how to harness it, so I created a business helping companies get their arms and heads around this whole idea of branding and design and creativity as a consultant, and that worked great and built a company on that and wrote the book, the brand gap to define the problem. The problem is the gap between design and business strategy. And so that became the really became a focus of my work ever since I kept writing books on the same subject because it, it's actually rich with opportunity. So that's what I've been doing. I've got eight books now all around this topic of, of the brand gap, and the role of creativity in business and the opportunity for business of utilizing design in a way that can, you know, really drive like off the charts results for the company. Marc Gutman 14:29 Yeah, and I don't want to harp on this too much. But I'm still so fascinated about how, and I do want to talk to you about your books and get into those because I'm a big student of those. But I'm just so fascinated that these books came so late to you and that this kind of second career came later. And the reason I'm so fascinated is it's really personal for me. I mean, we see in our industry, you know this this idea of ageism is like rampant, you know, especially in the creative field and design and branding. It's all about younger creatives and younger people in it. What's the younger generation doing? And? And yet the the the wisdom and the perspective is all coming for you after 40. And I mean, do you ever run into that today? Do you find that? You know, how do you maintain relevance? How do you stay relevant as you get older in the creative space, and you have all these younger people pushing on you? Marty Neumeier 15:20 Well, you know, I think what I've noticed is that whatever you ate, how will you know if you're already in business, if you're late, let's say solidly working in an industry. By the time you're 30, you're going to be equal in your ability to accomplish things as someone who's in their 70s I think he, you just bring something different to it. So if you're 30, you're going to bring an awareness of the latest stuff that's happening in culture, right? Because you're going to be like, that's what you're going to care about is that stuff that's all around you, everyday, all that stuff. You're going to be right there with it. And you can bring that knowledge to your work. Now. You may not have the wisdom of someone who's 60 or 70. But you've got that. And you've got energy and new ideas and very little baggage, right? So as you get older, you have to deal with, like what you are what you already know is your problem. You know, what you think is true and right and correct, you have to keep reinventing that for yourself. And that gets difficult because it's hard to keep up with what's happening now in culture and also do the things you really need to do, which is to learn from the past. I mean, that's where the wisdom comes from. It's like looking at the whole sweep of history going way back. Like, it's great to, you know, think about what the latest advertising agencies doing but also like check in on Aristotle, you know, he had some really amazing insights that you could learn from. Now, you know, someone who's 30 is probably not going to spend a lot of time thinking about Aristotle, but by the end of your career, be looking back at history. And trying to mind history for all its great wisdom and bringing that up today. And you also have a duty and an opportunity to teach younger people, some really interesting ways of looking at their work. And by the same token, younger people can bring that, that fresh world to you so that you're not totally out of touch with what's happening. But you get out of touch because you get ideas that have worked for you, and they keep working for you. So you don't want to have to work so hard to stay up with everything. But also you're spending time broadening your knowledge base, and that, you know, that just takes time away from staying in tune with what's on television or what's on what's on kwibi You know, this week, so everyone has advantages. That's why someone who's 30 can compete with someone who's 70 in vice versa, as you have different strengths. Marc Gutman 17:58 I love that. Thank you. So you start every book that you have at least the ones I've had, and I've read. So I don't say every book release, the ones I've read with an intro to that book that you're holding that is essentially an anti book. Right? You always you make these mentions that, hey, this is the fewest words possible. You make it a point to tell the reader that you've bought a short yet dense and informative book. Like why are short books so important to you? Like, why why do you always enjoy your book that way? Marty Neumeier 18:28 Well, if they are short, I do. It's for a reason. And the reason is, we're all very busy, you know, doing our jobs and it's hard to find the time to move into new new territory, a new area of understanding and keep working and you know, bring in the, in the money to pay the rent and all that. So, you know, why would I, like try to monopolize somebody's time I want them to get out and start using this immediately. But at the same time, I don't want to offer them a shallow sense of anything, I want everything to be as deep as possible. So to do that, you have to really work on compressing your information down to the simplest possible way to say it. So that it a communicates clearly and B sticks in your head. So that's, that's actually the work of, you know, copywriters, that's what they do, they figure out say something in the least amount of space. So that that skill that I've developed has served me well. And it has an author's just gonna use copywriting skills, and also design skills. So designers can make things visual, that maybe aren't typically visual to help people understand it and help it stick in your head. So there's those two skills together, especially when you use them in tandem. One on one equals three. So that's, that's the nice thing that I can bring to it. Other than that, it's just reading and learning and trying out things testing, doing research and all these things that I'm addicted to now at this time. Part of my life, I just love learning more and more about it. So I just take that information, and I use my design and writing skills to make a book that communicates clearly just goes right into your brain like a laser and, and sticks there because it's, you know, if I do it well enough, it's memorable. So but having said that, I've got a book that's not like that meta skills, which is 300 pages of much, it's deep material that stays deep, doesn't, it's not simplified, because it has to be that way. So I'll on that book that's about developing skills for the, for the century, especially after the pandemic, you know, we're going to have a lot of new opportunities, and it's going to require new skills. So there are five skills that I write about meta skills, which are skills that that can help you create or learn new skills, there's sort of a skill of skilling yourself. That makes any sense. So that book is different. And then I also wrote one called scramble that is not visual. It's, it's a thriller. So it's a business thriller that I use to explain the idea of Agile strategy. So this is for strategy, business strategy and brand strategy together. How do you create it? How do you do it fast and do it well enough in our fast moving world of business today, so that it's been an interesting process is to learn how to communicate business material in through story. And I think it's working well. So I'll probably do some more of those too. But the whiteboard books, the ones you're referring to, like the brand gap, the brain flip, zag, those are the you know, the highly visual quirky fun, condensed brand books. Marc Gutman 21:49 Yeah, thanks. Thanks for sharing that. How do you decide what what topics to write on? I mean, writing a book is no small feat. It's certainly a lot of dedication and time so has to be something that You know, is worth doing? How do you decide what you're going to write on? And what's worth your time? Marty Neumeier 22:05 And not I think it's being honest. I think it's, I write about stuff that bugs me. You know, when I think like, you know, people should really think about something in this way or not the way they're thinking about it, or the world really needs to change to embrace x. And typically, in the beginning, I don't even see what it is that I'm going to write about very clearly, it takes a while to kind of go, yeah, that's the problem. It's, you know, none of us really see this problem, but it's a real problem. And I can fix this, you know, I can, I can unleash people's creativity. So we all can fix this. And so, I mean, the brand gap started just out of frustration that, you know, I couldn't seem to get designers to care enough about business to know what they were doing within a business. I couldn't get business people to care enough about design so that they can manage it. Well. That that is really A last opportunity of like two bodies of knowledge that are very sophisticated, that can't work together and need to work together. So, you know, so the brand gap, and then and then when I was doing the brand gap, you know, talking about it and giving workshops people would say, yeah, these five disciplines that are in the brand gap, you know, differentiation, innovation, etc. That really makes sense. But the differentiation when where you have to be different than everybody else. That one is really counterintuitive to me. I'm not really sure I get that or I'm not on board for that. I just think you know, we need to do someone's making a lot of money in one area, you do what they do, and you will make money too. And that's not how it works. So I decided I have to drill down on differentiation. So zigzag became a drill down book, just this idea of positioning in positioning for difference making your company different, making it The only in its category so that you don't have to compete head to head with anybody and you your profit margins can be higher. And that takes, you know, a definite effort to do that. I mean, it doesn't come naturally to people we don't, we're not different, but naturally know people. Some people can't help be different than maybe that's an advantage. But a lot of people just want to be the same. They just want to fit in, they just want to be professionals. And that's actually not a very good kind of impulse for, for becoming great in your industry and for standing out and having a brand that's really valuable. You have to purposefully do something different than your competitors. So that needed a book, right. And so that succeeded really well. And then I started to realize, well, you know, even if you understand all this material, you as a company, you can't build a brand unless your company understands the whole concept of branding, they have to have all the processes in place to embrace and protect that brand. And that record that's going to require a culture change. You have to change the culture and to be to become innovative and to become brand focused and brand lead. So I wrote the design for company that introduced I think it was the first book about design thinking. So that's that's how I, I write these books. I have, like, a burr under my saddle. And I just have to, I get angry, angry enough to write a book. Marc Gutman 25:38 So interesting. And you were, you're like, right on the forefront of design thinking. I didn't realize that your book was potentially the first book I had always kind of attributed design thinking to this thing that I do invented. Where did design thinking come from, if not from there? Marty Neumeier 25:53 Well, God bless you. I mean, they have been so helpful to the design field by explaining All this stuff and paving the way for everybody else. at my office in Palo Alto, Palo Alto, when I started this, I was writing the brand gap. I was in a little like a warehouse, because I just shut down my other business. And it was full of all the junk from my last business. And I was there by myself, writing my book right across the street was at the IDEO headquarters. And so I got to know those guys and really become familiar with their, what they were doing. And they wrote a lot about this topic, too. So we're probably doing this at the same time. But I think my book was the first one to use design to actually describe the process of design thinking in its simplest, simplest way. IDEO followed with some very specific books about design thinking, and so did a lot of other people. But even before that, my magazine critique was about design thinking. So, you know, I'm not claiming credit for inventing design thinking but I would say it was in the Air probably as early as 1990 Marc Gutman 27:01 Wow, that's quite a bit of history. I love that. I love that. And so, you know, one thing I love about your story is is what I'm gathering and please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth or summing up incorrectly is that you've tried a lot of different things. Like you haven't just said, Hey, I'm just gonna try this, you know, magazine and design thinking, I'm just going to be a designer, like, you've really given yourself the ability to try different things, see if they work, you know, in success for you. Also, it doesn't sound like it's a zero sum game. Like, I would suggest that critique magazine was a success. But at some point, you shut it down and then you know, you're doing something different. So, you know, can you talk a little bit about this like propensity to to try different things to sprout out, I mean, to sprout up to contract to kind of do it over and over again? Marty Neumeier 27:50 Well, you know, what I like about being a designer is the ability, the freedom that you have to invent, to innovate to, to experiment a little bit. And even when I was just, you know, in my 20s doing design, I always wanted to try different ways of communicating, you know, different ways of using graphics, words and pictures and combination, all that kind of stuff. I mean, it was just endless fun. trying all these things. I think all I did was the take that same impulse to be inventive and move it up to a higher level of like, Can I be inventive? With the concept of the work? Can I be inventive with the strategy behind it? Can I be inventive with my own career? You know, kind of do I have to do this all the time? Not that I didn't want to do it, but I just thought there's always something to explore. So maybe it's just a kind of curiosity and adventurousness that I developed early on. Then I was a big fan of The Beatles. This is back in when I was in high school, The Beatles came out. And up to that time, you know, music was great rock and roll was great. And I, you know, played a guitar and I listened very closely to music since I was probably 10 years old. And I loved all the newness, the novelty of, you know, the top 40 and all kinds of stuff. When the Beatles came out, it was something like at a much higher level of creativity to me, much more intellectual, but still fun and accessible. And what they would do is they would give you some music that you could accept, and then it'll start to really like, for its difference. And then just when you were comfortable with that, they'd come out with more music that was a little more different, like they were always exploring. So every step they took, was pulling you further into some area that you weren't expecting. And I just love that I just thought that's what I want my career to be. I want to be exploring every opportunity in this like, breaking the mold every time I can and so, but at the same time being a serious person So who's, you know, is making a living with it and, and is in demand by industry and all that. So, you know, you can, you could do crazy stuff every day of the week, and never really amount to anything in your life. So you don't want to do that. So you have to kind of stick with something. But I always wanted to be like trying something new pushing the ball forward down the field. And that's the joy of it for me. So I would say, kind of reinvented myself but every 10 years, like in a fairly serious way, but not in a way that would surprise anybody. It's just like, maybe just take a step to the left or to the right or the elite a little bit of a leap forward. Or it just means really, that you have to be willing to abandon what was working before to try something that might not work. But you know, that that's kind of a defining characteristic for me. So it's, you know, I love doing it, and I still love doing it. So that's why I'm when I look back, I could never have predicted I'd be teaching branding right now, to professionals. I just, you know, I wouldn't even know what it was. I just wanted to be a commercial artist, you know? So don't don't hold yourself back and say no, I'm an accountant. And I can't be anything but an accountant. You'd surprise yourself just, you know, imagine something else you might enjoy and take a few steps towards and see if you like that. And eventually you'll jump and do that. And that will be great until it's not and then you'll be ready to jump again. Marc Gutman 31:33 I mean, and so in that light, Do you consider yourself a brander? Or a marketer? Marty Neumeier 31:37 Oh, brander Yeah. To me marketing. It's way more tactical than branding. So marketing is really about how do I sell stuff now? How do I create revenues this quarter? Like it's, it's an ongoing challenge. It's like you're in a live sports event. You're you're playing on the field, and you've got to like Score score score. Branding is more about the strategy. It's a long term, it's a long game. And so it's more like having a sports career than a sports game, you know, for the company, it's, it's really thinking about how do we make money now and 20 years from now, to make sure that we've grown in the last 20 years we've grown, we've become more important, more solid, less vulnerable to the shifting winds, or that kind of stuff. So it's, it's really rises to a higher level in a in a company or in a business. I would say, I'm starting. This has taken me a long time to to believe this. But the more I study this and research it and test it, the more I think branding deserves a spot right next to the CEO at that level of leadership has to be all about brand. So think about someone who is variable successful at this Steve Jobs. CEO of Apple, you know was the world's maybe still is the world's most successful rich company out there. And he was his title was CEO, but he didn't really do the kinds of things that CEOs are known to do. He didn't really care that much about shareholders and taking care of them. He didn't look at spreadsheets and worry about finance. I mean, that was somebody else's job. His job was to make sure you had customers like rabid customers, rabidly loyal customers who would buy anything that he decided to put out, and he worked really hard at that was fanatical about it. And so that, you know, it's very rare for Steve Jobs to put out a product that just wasn't successful. He did it but you know, it happens. But he was very careful about being successful every time out making sure that the product they were producing and selling was the right product at the moment. And so what does that take? Well, it takes some sense of what your customers want, you have to think like a customer, you have to understand your customers really well. You have to take responsibility for their delight, right? So he had to create the products that he thought they would need, if they only knew they existed. He had to make sure that the products were unique, somewhat unique Anyway, you know, they didn't have to be the first but they had to be the best that they had in hand, put an apple look and feel that they were designed beautifully that they worked beautifully. Pet, they had the ethos of Apple, all that stuff. That's a lot of work. And it typically it takes one very strong willed person to make that happen. So that person needs to be pretty high up in a company, whether he's the CEO or she's the CEO, or this is what I would say is more practical is a CBO chief brand officer. There needs to be somebody response for that stuff, the stuff that makes customers loyal. That's that's the highest level work you can do in the company. The rest is mostly operations and bookkeeping. So you don't have a company without customers. Right? You can have customers without having a very good company, you don't last long. But you could do it, the customers are the main thing. And so we're to really designing is not your designing customers. And that is tricky work. And we're just now starting to understand how it's possible to make that happen. And that area of work is called branding. Marc Gutman 35:40 And so why do you think that we're not seeing that more often today? Why are we not seeing more people having CEOs and people sitting right next to the CEO and thinking more like Steve Jobs and less like, what we kind of see as a traditional CEO, which is, you know, hey, I gotta take care of shareholders and financial spreadsheets and whatnot? Marty Neumeier 36:00 I think it's that that tradition makes things, you know, keeps things from changing tradition. You know, we've been having, you know, businesses been going on for, for many centuries now really picked up in the 1500s. And that's really going well. And schools reflect the knowledge base that you need to be in business, and they are very slow to change. They should move slowly. And so it takes innovators to kind of break out of that. And until enough of them are successful, nobody's willing to follow. It's, it's just too important to to succeed. I mean, success is so important that people don't take risks, they're risk averse. And the bigger the company is, the less risky they tend to be. But then you see, you know, people like Steve Jobs, you know, hugely successful people are going so how do we do that? I mean, where do you where what's To go to to learn how to do that, well, Steve Jobs didn't go to any school, he figured it out. And I think we're still at that figuring out stage. But it's, you know, it's the reason I started level C with my partner and the, and the star is to bring this little part, which I think is gonna be a much bigger part of the business called branding up to a level of professionalism so that it's a thing, like people know that this is the work that we're doing. In fact, it could be the central work of any company is creating, and just the normal CEO skills are not gonna do that for you. Right. So, so who's gonna do it? Well, I think it's gonna, I think it's going to be a lot of business people getting into branding, but it's also going to be a lot of people who are creative, more creative, that really know how to communicate and do strategy to understand the social element of a business, getting in and taking A lot of responsibility. So that's what we're looking for. It's happening. It's not happening as fast as I thought it would considering how powerful it is. But um, you know, things take their they take as long as they take and but I think that's the direction we're going in, and there's no turning back. Marc Gutman 38:15 Well, thank you for sharing that. I mean, the thing I find like, and I'm sure you run into this all the time as well, like anytime I talk to a client, anytime we start branding, and I'm like, Hey, tell me who you want to be like, they're like, I want to be like Steve Jobs. I want to be like apple, but they don't want to do the things that make them wait. Marty Neumeier 38:35 Yeah, so yeah, they want the results without doing the work, sir. Yeah, but but that's, that's the job of consultants and writers, people like me, teachers to say, okay, there's actually a way to do this. You have to, this is what you need to know about it. A lot of things in your company or change to make this happen. You know, Apple is not that just wasn't one person. Apple is all bunch of people under one person's direction doing things in a way that no other company was doing. And so there are lots of companies out there experimenting with that now to apples just happens to be that one of the earliest and the most beautiful of them, you know, the most perfect of them, but it's, it's happening everywhere. So I just think it's frustrating for people like you probably because you can see where things need to move to. And they're not moving fast enough. But just think about all the people that don't have that vision yet. They haven't seen it. It's going to take a lot of time. And eventually though, I think you'll, you'll go to the university and you'll get a branding degree, you know, and it'll be really robust. It'll be great. And maybe you'll even have to take some art classes or other you know, creative classes to go along with that. And I think that'll be great. I think the world gods. This is my theory, okay. The world got split. up into two paths back in the Renaissance. In the exam, the renaissance of a really smart talented person was Leonardo da Vinci, because he would. He was artistic and creative, super creative. But it was also really scientific and logical at the same time he could do both of those things he made those two things work together as one. So it's a metaphor for having your left brain and right brain working together as one unit. And what I what I think happened was that that example his example, which we now know about, was unknown, because his notebooks never out. I mean, he meant to publish those notebooks but he was afraid to publishing because he didn't want to lose any. He didn't want to because his competitors are like up so he kept those notebooks very secret. Meaning to always meaning to publish them when he before he died and he never got around to it. And then he gave the the project to his assistant before he died. So you you get them published to him. And the assistant Francesco melty failed to do it. Also, he wasn't very good follow through either. And so those notebooks just got lost. They filtered out into various houses in Europe, and they were, he was basically unknown for 200 years, nobody knew. Nobody had that example of how you can use art and science equally, to make something that nice by itself. So art went one way became like what we know now is just kind of art for people's homes and museums and everything. And then then we got, you know, science went into manufacturing and all kinds of stuff like that, and never the twain shall meet. So, business has had, you know, 100 years of being mostly about science and logic and dollars and cents and just being very narrowly defined. And now we need that example of Leonardo da Vinci we need we need the creativity, the logic, the magic and the logic, working together to create a company that last that's really important, and we don't have that anymore. So we're trying to get it back. That's what's happening. So universities have the ability to, to post the art and the science programs back together so that they influence each other. And, and then that, in turn, will influence business management. And we'll see business that is businesses that are much more human focused, and that will be good for business that'll be good for capitalism. It's going to be good for society, good for everything. And at this point, it's up to the creative people to make that case. Because I don't think traditionally educated business people Know how to get that I think they want it, they want jobs, they don't know how to do it. If you know how to do it, then you should be in there pitching, you know, you've got to get in there and connect the dots for business people and and make all this possible. So that's what I did there. And I mean the fight, you know, to, to bring humanity back into the business, not just because I want it that way, but because it'll be successful that way. And I'm thinking, we're apparently we're in a paradigm shift right now, caused by the pandemic and the collapse of the economy. That's gonna shake everything up. It's gonna shake the snow globe, and create a lot of opportunity for people who can embrace change, and find a place in this new future what it's like, but I'm pretty sure it's going to be the future we've been trying to make happen, but we got stuck because of tradition. So, tradition is getting broken up right now, at least temporarily. And that's that's a chance to to get And do some new things, I think what'll happen, businesses will become more brand focused. So they'll try to delight customers more, they'll try to protect customers instead of just milking them for their cash, you know, which is not a very good long term strategy. long term strategy is helping customers become who they want to become. And if you can do that, you'll be very valuable to your customers, and they will stick with you beyond reason, though, though, they'll stick with you, even when you're not doing a good job if they trust you, because you're human helping them. It's very simple. But we just don't have the framework to understand that from a business standpoint. So, you know, I'm working on I got eight books on the subject, and I'm certainly finding a lot of CEOs that are interested in in adopting a more brand focused way of leadership. So I think it's going well, I just think you only have so many years in your career, and you could easily get frustrated that it's not moving fast enough, but it moves as fast as it moves. Marc Gutman 45:10 And such is life. I mean, I love your vision of what the snow globe may look like, on the other side of this, but, you know, what's hard about branding? Like, what, what just what doesn't the normal person see or What don't we now, like what's hard about this as a discipline? Marty Neumeier 45:27 Well, the first thing is that most people don't know that branding is more than logos. I mean, that's, that's, you know, the vast majority of the world thinks branding is about sticking logos on things or you know, colors and typefaces maybe, or maybe advertising or, you know, marketing. Branding is not it's much more than that. It's it's about giving customers something that makes them better people and in the largest sense, and, yes, that is that that demands To make products that they think are valuable, that are respectful of them and society and the environment, it means communicating the values of those products or services in a clear way that so they understand what it does for me, it requires that companies build themselves around their brand and have a purpose that's, that goes further than just wanting to make profit. I mean, you know, a company needs to have a purpose beyond making money. Today, if they want to succeed, if their only purpose is to grow to be a 5 million $5 billion company and sell it off to somebody else. They'll probably succeed at that, but they won't create anything of lasting value. They'll just their company will be absorbed by somebody else. may or may not do anything good with it. So you can do that. But if you want to create businesses that last and create that are satisfying to everybody You need to think about purpose, what's the purpose of this company beyond making money? What What do we want to do for the world? And so, I'm pretty cheered up about that, that actually, that message got through to people. There's very few instances anymore where you see that, you know, a statement on somebody's website that says the purpose of our company is to return or to, to increase shareholder returns, or something really bland. Having only to do with profitability, it's always got to be more than that, because who's gonna work for a company that just wants to, you know, increase shareholder dividends, it's just boring. It's, it's, it makes you want to take a take a shower. After you come back from work, it's like, you know, it's just, there's nothing there for anybody. No, we live in a world of human beings. So we want to think that what we're doing has value to people real value and then leaving the world a better place because of what we're doing. It's not easy to do but that's the That's the that's the goal, really great companies. So an apple service certainly that way, if you want to go back to them, Apple wants to improve everybody's minds, you know, I mean, they want to push evolution forward. So it's pretty big. And you can go to work and be happy about doing that kind of work. Google, for example, I don't trust them as much as I used to, but they had the right idea when they started out, which was, let's catalog all the world's information and make it easily accessible to everybody. Well, that's pretty cool. I mean, I certainly benefited from that. It's really helped me in writing my books and learning and all kinds of stuff is to get all this free information about the world. Oh, people are like getting in line to work for Google. I mean, in the stock valuation reacted appropriately to that, you know, it's super valuable. Amazon stock is doing really well. Amazon has a very narrow, missing permission. Which is to be the most customer centric company in the world. I think they've done that. They haven't been great, necessarily to their employees or to other businesses, they've kind of trampled. You know, the competitors. And I think they owe the world a lot after their success, and they need to pay back pay back for that. But you could see how having that lofty goal is what really drove them to such heights. So you need that. And so be careful what you wish for to whatever you decide you want to do for the world, you may be very successful. So you have to start them thinking about well, have we done any damage? And we how do we get a net positive out of our contribution to the world? Oh, Marc Gutman 49:49 I just want to think about that for a second. let that simmer, settle a little bit. Marty Neumeier 49:54 Yeah, so I mean, I've been talking a lot about sort of like ideas of branding and everything but it also is important at And surface level of branding, like what you say how you say it, you know, what are the messages? Like? What kind of words are they using? What is their poetry? And is there? Are they powerful words? Or are the images sticky to you? You know? Are they beautiful? Are they memorable, all these kinds of things that we typically think of as being in the realm of branding, they are still important, right? So important at every level. So I think for me, having come from advertising, marketing, design, and having been in the trenches, was really a good background for going into brand strategy and brand education because I know what it takes to do it. It's not easy. It's as hard as any kind of art form and takes as many brains and skills and all that kind of stuff and collaboration to do that as anything else. And I really think without that, you may have great strategy. You may have great intentions. But the rubber never meets the road because you don't do a very good job on the actual stuff that people see the, what we call the touch points. So all that the design of all those touch points, the places where customers come in contact with the brand, they have to be great. They have to be clear, beautiful, powerful, all those kinds of things. And you could spend your whole career just learning how to do some of those things. And that's fine. For me. I just felt like I did a lot of those things. And I was getting frustrated that maybe my work wasn't landing the way it should, in a business way. The business sense what connecting or it wasn't being appreciated for it in some cases, or maybe as being too appreciated for it because it really wasn't working. That's not very, that's not very satisfying thing. So I just felt the, for me the place I could go to do the good was is intact. This whole idea of branding, how can it get everyone on the same page so we can all work together to do something good for customers and the company and society. It's all it's all there and branding. I mean, you definitely can do it. And it's gonna take every ounce of effort that you have to be good at it, which I really love. I just love it to be challenging. Marc Gutman 52:23 Yeah, and you know, that that's a great segue into to this question for you in that we've spoken a lot about what companies can do around branding and benefit from branding. But what advice do you have for people like myself, brand strategist, agency owners, like what should we be looking to, in order to be you know that that next level, the leaders and branding and delivering the most value to our clients, which is obviously what we should be wanting to do, Marty Neumeier 52:51 but you can deliver value at different levels. So one is, um, you can be the person that does the design or the message creation. Four touch points, essentially, which is where I started. The important thing there is understanding where you fit in, like, what's, what's this branding thing that I'm contributing to what is what's expected of me? How do I know when I've been successful? How can I sell what I'm doing? Because I can prove that it's successful in in the right context that makes sense to businessperson. So there's that. And then then you might move on to move into brand strategy. And then you have to be the connector between all these touch points, the creation of these touch points and some business results. You have to be able to sell that and manage that. So how do you do that while you you read? So I do everything. I read about it. And then I try it out. You have to have a theory before you practice it. So practice is great. You can learn a lot from your own experience, but without a theory to test against. You really don't learn that much. So you need to have a theory. Like oh, maybe I try this and measure that result in See how it is I'll give you a concrete example because I'm getting a bit abstract here. So once upon a time, I will have a design firm and I was designing the retail packages for for business software. That's I decided that I could specialize in there and probably be the only one that knew enough about it to, to warrant being paid a lot of money for it, essentially. So if I could be the first one to really understand how to design the software package so that people in the store would pick it up and look at it and go, That's for me, I'm going to pay $200 for that, that product, just based on a package. So I thought if you could do that your work would be very valuable to a company. So that that's that's what I did is I just learned how to do that really, really, really well. While I was doing that, I understood that I started to realize when I talked with my clients that they I would, I would have to ask them questions like, okay, for this package that we're designing, I need you to tell me the one reason that people are gonna want to buy this product instead of the one right next to it that does the same similar thing. Why would they want to buy this word processing program instead of the word processing program right next door on the shelf? And they would say, Well, I don't know. Maybe they wouldn't know. I don't know why we have no, wait a minute, we have these features. This feature this feature this feature that I could say, well, you know, this other product has this feature, this feature this feature also, how does yours differ? Well, we have this other feature that you missed, we have that. Is that important? Well, no, that's not really important. Okay. So we have a problem. Your product is not different than the other one. And they will say, Oh, yeah, you're right. And I've been I would say, if you had something that would really differentiate you from the competition, then we could play that up. And we can make a big deal out of that one thing that you have that that other product doesn't have. So then they are saying, you want to come to the meeting where we're going to be talking about the next iteration of the software, because your views would be really interesting. And so I was learning strategy. And I started reading more about it, like, what is a business strategy? How does? How do you know when you're successful? How do you measure it, all those kinds of things. And soon I got to the point where the packages that we were designing, were selling the software so well, that could like increase sales, three to five times over the previous line just by changing the package. When companies found that out, then they realize they could they would pay a lot of money for that service. And I didn't need to be charging by the hour anymore. I could charge by the packets and I could charge anything along that really because no one else knew how to do this. That was the Huge, you know, a Tiffany for me that the price you charge for something doesn't isn't based on the hours you put into it. It's based on what it does, you know, because all my life I've been charging by the hour. So I started charging quite a bit of money for these software packages. And then it got to the point where because we went to the store and we tested these are prototypes in a store with actual customers, we got to know the salespeople in the store and the store owners and so forth is because we're there all the time testing prototypes on the shelf to see which one would be the best selling selling package. After a while when a software publisher would bring their product to a store like CompUSA which was a big deal at the time I guess there's been fries is another one who was maybe fries is still going I don't know. They go into the store with the product. say look, we have this new product and we Can you? Will you take it? Will you put it on the shelves? And I'll say, Well, you know, we don't bother demonstrating the product. We know it works. I mean, you guys know what you're doing. It's not our job to test your product. We'll assume that the product works. But your package is just not good enough. You know, it just it's not. Why do they have this opinion? Because they've been talking to us for years. And seeing what we knew to be a good package and being in on this conversation, until they knew enough about it to say, No, that's never gonna sell you got everything in the wrong place in their package. You just like it's a mess. We can't take a package like that. So go back and redo it. And we'll, we'll talk about it. And the publisher would say, well, we pay out. We paid $50,000 for this. I don't know what else we can do. And they write out our name and my phone number and give it to them and say, Look, talk to these guys. they'll fix you up and come back. So it wasn't, you know, long before we were charging $80,000 for a package for the same package, we would have charged $10,000 for years ago, but now we know more about it. And you know, we have a reputation for it, we have a brand, our brand is the people that do the software packages. And we got, you know, all the work came through us. So that, to me, was just eye opening, that, you know, that when your reputation could have a value, beyond the actual value of what you're producing. Just the reputation alone is worth money to your client or your customer. So that's what I would say is anybody in consulting can do the same thing when you have a specialty that no one else has, and it's valuable to companies and you can prove it. You have no competition really. And when you charge more for that service, it doesn't hurt your chances of making money. It actually probably enhances your chances. Because they cost a lot. If they think you're the best at something, you better cost a lot. So this is a, you know, a situation in which charging more money actually makes you seem more valuable. And that's where you want to be. And that's what Brandon can do. So once you know that and you have a sense of how to get there, what's stopping you, I mean, figure out what you're going to do that's really different than anybody else that's very valuable, and preferably in an area growing, where you can grow with it. And just do that. Just present yourself as a specialist in something and make sure that you are the best in that something on it, you can prove it. And you'll enjoy that because you'll get more you'll make more money, you'll have more options. You'll have more respectful clients, fewer competitors. And eventually if you get tired of doing that same thing over and over you reinvent your Marc Gutman 1:01:02 That's a great share. Thank you, Marty. I so appreciate it. So you're always reinventing yourself. what's what's next for Marty neumeier? Marty Neumeier 1:01:12 Well, I think what I'm doing what's next now it's pretty new this thing called level C. Level C is a boutique brand school that pops up anywhere in the world. It tends to be mostly popping up in Europe, in London, and also then in the US, several times a year. And professionals like you take classes that are just two day intensive workshops where you learn something specific about branding. So there's five levels, so you're learning five levels of branding, and it gives you enough material to probably keep you busy for a year or two, using all this stuff and making money from it, and so you're ready to go up to that next level. If you choose to do that. Some people won't just take the first master class and become a certified person. specialists and they'll just use that for five to 10 years you know, and do really well with it. Some will say though, I love that and I'm doing well but I want to drill down into strategy more become a strategist, also the money's better than being a strategist. So that may be one of the reasons they want to do it. So they take this next masterclass and they learn that and from there they can go to become a brand architect, which is working on complex three dimensional brands where you've got multiple brands that you're juggling and, and creating the architecture for it's called brand architecture tell all the brands fit together inside a company, how the portfolio is assembled, which is really valuable work. From there, we believe that a lot of people will want to become brand trainers. Because when you start to instruct people in your subject area, you learn a lot more than you learn. To get to that point, so you know, when you if you really want to learn something, teach it. That's the that's the saying. And I think that's very true for everybody I know so. So the fourth level of the level c brand program is being an instructor. And after you learn how to do that, and you've, you've taught some classes, semester classes, you're ready to teach that to a CEO or to a whole company, right? So we hope that people will go into the top of the brand master level, which will equip them along with their other skills that they've been learning the whole time to be CEOs to be grounded officer or somebody very high up in a company that has influence over the whole brand. So that's the top level and when they graduate from that they'll go have their hands full and go have a lot of work. We're starting to see lots of need for cheap, cheap brand. Are you talking about that before? Why is that Where there are a lot of Chief brand officer as well there are going to be in they're already starting to pop up these openings for for that position. Part of it is it's new so you have to sell yourself is that you have to say look I do is I work at the top of an organization to manage all the stuff that makes customers loyal. And then you your salary figure and hope you get a job and the salaries for this kind of work that we're seeing already even in this earlier. Our will take your breath away. I mean, I had no idea that that kind of pay that much to get people of that caliber, but they will I'm not gonna throw around figures because I'm not. I think that could be manipulative, but let's just say that they're there. They're breathtaking. You probably be better off taking one of these jobs than starting your own company. Let's put it that way. think you'd make more money. So that's exciting. And so you know, I've got I've got my hands full, we're creating these classes, one, one class per year, it's a lot of work to put together, a class takes about a year. So we've we're up to the second class now. Next year, we'll have level three, next year, level four, next year, low level five. And we're getting people that are taking all the just moving up through all the courses in the new people getting in all the time. So the result of this that I find really exciting and satisfying is that it's building a whole community of people that understand branding in a certain way, in a very clear, simple way. But with all d