Podcasts about rich you

Why did you decide to own a property management business instead of working for someone else? Did you just want money, or was it something deeper that drove you to become an entrepreneur? In this episode of The Property Management Growth Show, industry growth expert Jason Hull sits down with Rich Walker, Founder of Quik! Forms to discuss adaptability as an entrepreneur and embracing change. You'll Learn [01:55] Entrepreneurial Tendancies from a Young Age [13:49] Reasons for Starting a Business [20:08] Embracing Change and Facing Adversity [30:31] The Power of In-Person Interaction Quotables “ You build something people want, they'll pay you for it.” “There's no value in worry.” “We think we want more money because we think it's going to give us more freedom and fulfillment, but we actually have less fulfillment and less freedom the more money we make.” “If everybody thinks they're right, then my beliefs can be just as right.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Rich: What do you get when you have your best work? [00:00:01] Rich: You get joy, you get fulfillment, you get productivity, you get engagement and you get the highest possible outcome from every person on your team. That's why I'm an entrepreneur more than anything else. [00:00:11] Jason: All right. Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the property management growth show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, impact lives, help others, and you're interested in growing your business and life and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management, growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now let's get into the show. [00:01:13] Jason: And my guest today, I'm hanging out with a local Austinite, fellow friend that I know locally, CEO and co founder of Quik! Forms Processing, Rich Walker. Welcome Rich.  [00:01:26] Rich: Hey everybody. Really an honor to be here. Jason. Thanks for having me on your show today.  [00:01:30] Jason: Yeah, glad to have you. [00:01:31] Jason: So you're doing some really cool stuff in business. And it's been great. We're in a mastermind locally together. And and you're going to be speaking to our audience at DoorGrow Live, you know, for those listening, make sure you get your tickets to DoorGrow Live. And you've written some books, like tell everybody, give us some background on Rich and how you kind of got into entrepreneurism and like, what you do. [00:01:55] Rich: So, well, boy, this could be a long story or I'll try to keep it brief. Look, I grew up very poor. I was the product of a broken household, if you will. And I learned very early on that if you make something people want, they'll pay you for it. It's amazing. So I started my first business at age 12. I took a $300 investment and turned it into over $1,100 in one day at an event. [00:02:18] Rich: And I was stunned. I was just struck with all these people handing me fistfuls of cash to buy my product. And I said, "wow, this is what I'm going to be. I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I'm going to build businesses." [00:02:29] Jason: What was the product at age 12?  [00:02:31] Rich: Oh, man. So I should show it to you. I'd have to go off screen to get it. [00:02:35] Rich: But if you know what surgical tubing looks like stretchy latex tubing, and you know what a pen tip looks like, take the pen tip, shove it into the tube, tie a knot on the other end, and then get a garden hose with a cone shaped nozzle and it blows up a long tube of water. Like a squirt gun. Yeah, we called them water weenies. [00:02:52] Rich: Yeah, I made those. Yeah! Yeah.  [00:02:56] Rich: So, but imagine before the super soaker came out, what were your options? You had water balloons, hand grenades, you had squirt guns that went five feet, you had the hose stuck to the house and then water weenies, which squirted 30 feet and carried gallons of water on your back. [00:03:13] Rich: So you are the king of the water fights.  [00:03:15] Jason: Yeah, and you got a good workout.  [00:03:18] Rich: Yeah, amazing.  [00:03:19] Jason: How long were these tubes? How long would you cut them?  [00:03:23] Rich: The longest cut length would be three feet, but when it filled up, it was nine feet. So imagine, draped around your neck, down to your toes, with water.  [00:03:31] Jason: Nine feet of water filled hose. [00:03:32] Jason: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:03:33] Rich: Yeah. So you were just a walking, like fire truck.  [00:03:36] Jason: I just got back from funnel hacking live and Russell Brunson always shares a story of starting by selling potato guns online, like how to build potato guns. This sounds very reminiscent.  [00:03:47] Rich: Yeah, very much. It was a really awesome experience. I mean, honestly, going from having nothing to having money in my hands. [00:03:54] Rich: And actually I saved up money at age 12, just about to turn 13. I saved it until I bought my first car when I turned 16.  [00:04:01] Jason: Wow. Wow. All right. So you ever heard of the marshmallow tests they give kids? I'm not sure. It's like, it's delayed gratification versus instant gratification, right? So they put a marshmallow in front of them and they make them wait with it. [00:04:14] Jason: And they're like, you can eat this marshmallow, but if you don't eat it by the time I get back, then I'll give you two marshmallows or something like this. I think it's how it goes. And most kids fail. They're like, "Oh, I really want that." Or they'll put cookie or whatever it is, you know, showing you saving money, when there's like, you could buy video games as a kid, like whatever, right? That's some serious delayed gratification right there, so.  [00:04:38] Rich: You know, Jason, I got to tell a bigger story here because really this is what happened at age eight, I went to my friend's house and my friend had a radio controlled car. [00:04:46] Rich: It was a kit you had to build yourself, but it would drive 35 miles per hour off road. It was amazing. This is the eighties, right? Yeah. And I wanted that car so bad. And we were so poor. There was no way my parents were going to buy me a $300 car. And in today's money, that's like 12 to 1500 bucks. Okay. Yes. [00:05:03] Rich: So that's not going to happen. So I started saving my money, birthday, Christmas money. I would sell candy around the neighborhood. I would rake leaves for a neighbor and make $2. Anything I could do, anything I could do to save money. It took me four years. To save up the $300. And that summer that I got introduced to water weenies was by my neighbor. He was a supplier to physicians. His son and I played all the time. And he came out and gave us these water weenies to play with, but then he took them back and all the other kids wanted one. So I was kind of observant and I said, "Hey, In your shed, I see a reel of tubing. Can I buy that from you?" [00:05:36] Rich: It was like 25 feet of tubing. "He's like, okay, how much?" It was like 12 bucks or something. Ran home, grabbed the money out of my bank account, gave it to him, went home, started cutting links, destroyed every pen in my house and started selling. And within a day or two, I had sold $50 worth of stuff. So I went and bought another 25 feet and sold another $50 bucks. [00:05:53] Rich: Then I went to summer camp and I rode my bike and squirted every kid I could find had 20 kids chasing me on my bike. And then I'd sell them all the water. So over that course of that summer, I got to the $300 mark and I bought the car. Now, my uncle saw all this behavior and said, "Rich next summer, I'm hosting fourth of July. [00:06:10] Rich: You could have a booth and sell these water weenies there. Would you like to do that?" I'm like, "yeah, absolutely." Months and months go by, go through winter, go into spring, my mom reminds me of this opportunity. And I'm like, okay, so I go to my neighbor, "How much for a thousand feet of tubing?" "300 bucks." [00:06:24] Rich: Guess what I don't have? I don't have 300 anymore.  [00:06:27] Jason: Yeah.  [00:06:27] Rich: So I said to him, "Hey, look, your son is about to have his birthday. Wouldn't it be cool if he had this RC car? He loves playing with it. Would you barter with me and trade me for the tubing?" And the guy's a saint. Honestly, I wish I could find him and say thank you because he did it. [00:06:42] Rich: His son got a great car. I got the tubing. I wrote a letter to Scripto pen company and said, "Hey, I'm doing a project. I need some sample pen tips. Would you mind sending me some?" They sent me a box of 5,000 pen tips for free.  [00:06:52] Jason: What?  [00:06:53] Rich: No cost. And so then I had all the materials to put it together and showed up at 4th of July, started selling by 7am, sold out by 1pm. [00:07:01] Rich: And this is why I said I had fist fulls of money. I had people at this, you know, long table. I had people out eight to 10 people deep lined up to buy these things. And it's all I could do is to take money and give them a water weenie. My pockets filled up with cash and my mom would pull the cash out of my pockets and put it in a safe box over and over again that day. [00:07:18] Jason: What were you selling each one for  [00:07:20] Rich: Anywhere from like $1.50-4.00 or something, depending on the length.  [00:07:24] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:25] Rich: Yeah.  [00:07:25] Jason: Okay.  [00:07:26] Rich: It was such an incredible experience. And that's why I said, man, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. So I just knew that I was bitten and I had to do this and look, I'm age 50 now, my company that I own today, Quik! Just celebrated our 23rd anniversary, and I've started 10, about 10 different business ventures and companies since age 12. So I've always just had this desire to fulfill my own sense of freedom and creativity and serve people. Yeah. So yeah, that's really the genesis of it. [00:07:55] Rich: Like you build something people want, they'll pay you for it. And it's an amazing thing.  [00:07:59] Jason: I love it. You see a problem, you saw an opportunity. And lots of other people saw the problem. They just didn't see the opportunity. They're like, man, I would love that one of these. It's nice, you know, and you were able to fill that need. [00:08:12] Jason: So that's a great story. Love that story. That's how you kind of got it like, you know, bit by the bug of entrepreneurism.  [00:08:19] Rich: Yeah. Now, the Quik! company started because in the nineties, I worked at other companies that worked at Arthur Anderson, for example, and I learned technology, especially from like a backend perspective of big tech. How does it all work? How does it flow together? And I decided to get out of tech consulting late in the year 2000.  [00:08:39] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:39] Rich: And in doing that, I really went back to my degree in college, which was finance and said, "I really love finance. Let me help people with their money." So I became a financial advisor. [00:08:47] Jason: Okay.  [00:08:48] Rich: And in doing that. You go out and get your licenses, you work really hard for all that, you work really hard to gain the trust and respect of your first client, and then they finally say, "yes, I will open an account with you," and guess what your reward is? Yeah, fine, you can make a commission that's a reward. [00:09:01] Rich: No, you get to handwrite paperwork. And I thought, man, this sucks. I am not going to make $4 an hour handwriting paperwork for people. I used to charge $200 an hour as a consultant, so how do I fix this problem? And I decided to build software, because I was a technologist, that would fill out my forms. Jason, it was a hack. [00:09:19] Rich: It was a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet with fields overlaid on images. It was just a hack. It just made it work, but everybody around me for six months kept saying, "Rich, give me your software. I hate filling out forms," and I was in this quandary of, "wow, I have found a need. But I want to be a financial advisor. What do I do?" And after six months, I finally said, "okay, let's build the product." So we did our first install in February 11, 2002 and never looked back. I mean, we found out people really wanted this and it's changing people's lives. It was empowering them to do their best work, which is not paperwork. And today we manage a library of over 42,000 forms. [00:09:57] Rich: And we generate over a million forms every month across wealth management industry, serving well over a hundred thousand financial professionals.  [00:10:05] Jason: Yeah.  [00:10:05] Rich: So yeah. Yeah.  [00:10:07] Jason: That's awesome. Yeah. I had a short job. I worked for a while at Verizon, like in their business DSL tech support. Like I was an internet support guy and after every call, it was a call center, after every call that we did, we had to fill out this ridiculous form it just took so much time and we were measured on the time that we were unavailable between calls and how many calls we completed. And so I found some sort of like macro tool because there was only like three, maybe four types of tickets that we would do. [00:10:40] Jason: It was always the same sort of challenges. But we had to fill out all of these fields of ridiculous, stupid stuff. And so I use this macro tool that basically if I type a certain thing, it would just spit out a whole bunch of other stuff and it would go tab from field and fill it all out. And so I set this up because I started to see these patterns. [00:11:00] Jason: And so then I, similar to what you did I solved the problem for myself. So I built this thing that I could then just do this type of ticket, this type of ticket. And then there were other people on the floor and they're like, "man, I'm going to get fired. I can't do this. I can't do this fast enough." [00:11:14] Jason: Well, so then I'm starting to help people. So now I'm like a virus on the floor and the managers didn't like me for some reason. Like my manager did not like that I was doing this. I don't know why. Because maybe he didn't come up with the idea. I don't know. Yeah. Then I'm starting to help other people so they don't get fired, and I'm showing, you know, other people on the floor, how to set this up and how to do this and giving them my formula and, you know, for the script language for how to do this. And they're able to close their tickets out like really fast. They're just like "bloop!", and it's like "vrrrrrr", and they're like, cool next. [00:11:47] Jason: Right. And what was baffling to me at the time is that it was not seen as a positive by my superiors. It was seen as a problem and I'm like you are an idiot and this is where I kind of realized Like a lot of times, you know, you've heard of the Peter principle? Yeah. Which for those listening... [00:12:09] Rich: You're at your highest level of mediocrity.  [00:12:12] Jason: Or incompetence. [00:12:13] Jason: Right?  [00:12:14] Jason: And so, yeah, which means basically people get promoted because they're good at a certain level and then they get promoted again, just beyond their current capacity or ability to perform well. And now they're at a level where they are no longer able to intellectually maybe rise to the occasion or be good. [00:12:32] Jason: And so businesses are just full or rife with all of these people that like, especially big organizations, cause I was at HP. You know, I just saw it everywhere. I always had idiots like above me is what it felt like that were telling me I couldn't do things or slowing me down and I'm like, "don't you see?" [00:12:50] Jason: And then what would happen is months later, that idea that I was trying to push that they were fighting me on was their new idea. They're like, "I have this new idea."  [00:13:01] Rich: What you're explaining is the real truth. And it took me a while to figure this out for why I'm an entrepreneur.  [00:13:07] Jason: Yeah.  [00:13:08] Rich: I want to be able to do my best work and anytime I've worked for others, I've been limited and held back.   [00:13:14] Rich: So I really was seeking a way to empower myself to do my best work. And in my company, in our culture, it boils down to empowering others to do their best work. I want my team to do their best work. I want my vendors and my partners and my customers to all do their best work. Because what do you get when you have your best work? [00:13:31] Rich: You get joy, you get fulfillment, you get productivity, you get engagement and you get the highest possible outcome from every person on your team. That's why I'm an entrepreneur more than anything else. I mean, yeah. Ooh, I'd like to make money. Oh, I want freedom. I want creativity, but honestly, at the core of it, how do I get to do my best? [00:13:49] Jason: I love this. So some of you listening to this episode, you've heard me talk about my framework of the four reasons for starting a business. I call it the four reasons. And this is what makes us different than everyone else on the planet. And we're rare. Entrepreneurs are rare people. We are the minority. [00:14:05] Jason: We feel like we're living on a planet as aliens a lot of times. We're like, "why doesn't everyone think this way?" It's super weird. So entrepreneurs, the reason we start businesses is we want four things. We think we want money, usually in the beginning. But what we really want is what money will give us. [00:14:22] Jason: And that's these things. It's freedom. Well, first is fulfillment. The most important is fulfillment. We want to enjoy life, enjoy what we're doing, make a difference, whatever but we want fulfillment in whatever that means to us. And then second, we want freedom. We want autonomy. Usually in the beginning, we have, we start trying to start a business. [00:14:40] Jason: We think we want more money because we think it's going to give us more freedom and fulfillment, but we actually have less fulfillment and less freedom the more money we make. And so then we start to wake up like, "Hey, this sucks. Like, how do I like be pickier about my clients or how do I change this?" [00:14:56] Jason: You know? But fulfillment and freedom are one and two. Third, once we have those, we want contribution. We want to feel like we're making a difference, having an impact and we want to benefit other people. And that's what a business is designed to do, right? Solve real problems in the marketplace. [00:15:10] Jason: It's contribution. If not, it's snake oil, right? It's taking people's money. So fourth, once we have fulfillment, freedom, contribution, the fourth is we need support. And that's why we build a business because we can't max out on fulfillment, freedom, contribution if we are wearing every hat and we're miserable. [00:15:29] Jason: Yeah. Because we don't want to do everything. Not everything is fun for us. right? There's the pieces you love and there's pieces you just don't love, right? And that's true for every business owner, but we're all different. Like some of us love accounting. Some of us don't love accounting, right? Some of us love sales. [00:15:44] Jason: Some of us don't love sales, right? Some of us love ops. Some of us are bad at ops, right? And so, there is though what I call the fifth reason. This is what makes everyone else different than us. We want this one too, but everyone else in the planet prioritizes this fifth reason over the first four. [00:16:02] Jason: It's safety and security. Oh, right. Yeah. They want that. That's more important than freedom, fulfillment. They will give up freedom. You saw this during the pandemic. Most people were like, "forget your freedoms. I want to feel safe. Give me safety and security." Right. I remember here in, I was in North Austin. I went to Costco during the pandemic and masks were kind of optional, right? They were optional. And I'm walking around Costco without a mask and everyone else has masks on for the most part. And anyone that didn't have a mask, I was like, "Hey, do you own a business?" And they're like, "yeah." And we're looking at each other like we know like the world's gone fucking nuts. Like, what's going on? We had a knowing like, "yeah, everyone's crazy."  [00:16:42] Rich: Man, I wish I'd asked that question. I would have met a lot more entrepreneurs that way. Because I was out there, no mask, any chance I got. Right. I mean, I didn't want confrontation with people. [00:16:51] Jason: And for those listening, there's nothing wrong with this, right? We need both, right? Not everyone can be entrepreneurial. It would be a crazy world, right? We need people that are willing to work for us, right? We need both. And they want the four reasons too. Like nobody's going to say, "Oh, I don't want freedom." But they want safety and security first and that's most people on the planet. [00:17:11] Jason: And so psychologically, entrepreneurs, we're just wired different. We will give up safety and security in order to have freedom and fulfillment.  [00:17:20] Rich: I'll tell you how I did that, Jason.  [00:17:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:17:22] Rich: So imagine, I'm a tech consultant charging $200 an hour. I'm making $350,000 a year. I'm age 24 or 25, driving my dream car. [00:17:31] Rich: I have everything. Yeah. I go become a financial advisor and I make very little money. I mean, I had savings basically, and then I start the software company. I have no income. I literally say, "I'm going to start this company." I have zero income. I had no house, no wife, no kids. So, I mean, that made it easier. [00:17:49] Rich: And for the first ...  [00:17:51] Jason: people will say "you're nuts". They're already saying he's crazy. But every entrepreneur listening is like we get it.  [00:17:55] Rich: No, that's what you do. I cashed out my 401k. I sold the dream car, cashed out any equity I had in that. I bought a cheaper car, et cetera. [00:18:03] Rich: And then I said, "okay, I'm going to have my dream car back in a year or two." Yeah. In the first four years of my business, my income was $1,000 a month. I mean, I made $12,000 year for four years straight. And so here's the thing. A thousand dollars a month doesn't pay my rent. My rent was $1200 to $1500 during that time. [00:18:21] Jason: Right.  [00:18:22] Rich: So here's the question that you'd ask yourself. How did you sleep at night? And I'll tell you this one thing. Every time I paid rent on the first of the month, I actually did not know how I would have the money in 30 days to pay rent again, right? So how do you sleep at night? I slept great. It never bothered me. [00:18:39] Rich: I didn't lose one minute of sleep over that financial burden. Okay. I just looked at it as that's another tool I've got to figure out how to make money with this. And there were things that happened. It's like sometimes a big credit card bill came through when somebody bought our software or sometimes I borrowed money off the credit card to pay the bill. [00:18:58] Rich: It was just different things happen. And you know what, in those four years? I was never late once. My wife and I contrast. She could not do that. She just cannot live that way, she could never have that kind of risk profile for me. I was just like, "yeah, whatever. I'll figure it out every single time." [00:19:13] Jason: So you trusted. You trusted yourself and maybe God, I don't know, but you trusted your ability to create, right? You knew you had confidence you could create money.  [00:19:24] Rich: Yeah. And I learned that being poor. I mean, in college, I went to USC, one of the most expensive schools around, but I paid my own way to go there. [00:19:33] Rich: And during college, there were so many weeks, I can't even count them, where I'd wake up on Monday with exactly $5 to my name. That's all the money I had access to. And I had to get to Friday before I got my paycheck and I had to pay for parking and food, et cetera. I was so scrappy. I would look at what ads were in the paper and I find people doing focus groups that would pay me $10 for 30 minutes of my time to go pretend to shop and pick products. [00:19:58] Rich: So I'd go make an extra 10 bucks and now I had triple my money to get through the week. I did so many creative things. So I knew at that point, like, yeah, money is just a tool. We'll figure it out. We'll always make it work. So, you know, I want to bring this up because this is the thing, you know, you mentioned at the start of the show that I'm going to be at your event, the #DoorGrowShow, right? [00:20:15] Rich: DoorGrow Live. Yes. Okay. Yeah. And what I'm going to talk about is one of my books and it's called, "It's My Life!". I'm going to hold it up for anybody watching. "It's My Life! I can have..." sorry, there's two books. "I can change if I want to." My other book's called "It's my life! I can have the job I want," but I'm going to talk about change. Because one of the questions inherent to this problem of how do you go through these hardships? [00:20:38] Rich: How do you go through these struggles, which would stress most people out like crazy? Comes down to your ability to handle change.  [00:20:46] Rich: And it starts with you. Adaptability. Yeah. Now, look, I was forced into it because. I'm 50, but I've moved 33 times in my life. I had moved 29 times by the time I was 32. [00:20:58] Rich: Wow.  [00:20:59] Rich: And I was forced to move as a kid. I had no choice about that. I was forced to make new friends. I was forced to go into new schools and new cities and new states.  [00:21:06] Jason: Military family or...? [00:21:08] Rich: No. Divorces. Job transfers, etc.  [00:21:11] Jason: That's a lot of change, a lot of turmoil. Yeah.  [00:21:14] Rich: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really a very challenging childhood that I don't look back on with any negativity towards, but I was forced to learn how to change and adapt to change. [00:21:25] Rich: And out of that, around age 12, I developed a methodology for how I could change myself and the behaviors and the feelings I had. Because I started to look at the world. This actually comes from religion. I mean, you brought up God. My father was a minister in a church when I was born, but it was very extreme. It was considered a cult. [00:21:41] Rich: My stepfather was in the Catholic church, so we attended Catholic services. I lived in Salt Lake City, Utah. I've been to plenty of Mormon events, the LDS church. I know all about that. I've been part of other types of church.  [00:21:53] Rich: I grew up Mormon actually. So I was exposed to all these different religions. And what I saw was everybody said they're right. [00:22:01] Rich: And I'm not taking issue with that. I'm not trying to say one's better than the other, but just as an observation, if everybody thinks they're right, then my beliefs can be just as right. And that empowered me to say, "what do I want to believe about the world?" How do I want to choose beliefs that will help me be the best I can be? [00:22:18] Rich: And simultaneously at age 12, my mom was going through a huge awakening in herself. She was reading books by Dr. Wayne Dyer and all sorts of self improvement books, because she wanted to get better. And she was sharing those lessons with my brother and I. So I was learning through osmosis. I was learning through observing my mom go through these changes, but I was also observing the world around me, and I realized I can make changes to myself and become better, which means I could have lower stress. So let's go all the way back to the story of how do I start a company with no money? How do I believe I don't have to be stressed out about the money? And it comes down to your core beliefs of what you actually believe about your ability to go figure it out or your ability to let it stress you out or what even stress means in your life. [00:23:02] Rich: I'm sure you've talked about this with your group here. There's no value in worry. Like worrying about a problem, what does that actually get you? It gets you anxiety and stress. It doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't add value into your life. So therefore I looked at it and said, how do you not worry? [00:23:19] Rich: How do you not stress out about things? So what I'm excited to share with your audience when I get up on stage is how to use my methodology to become more resilient, to accept change for what it is, to learn how to control the change so that you can be the person you want to become. And therefore you can go through the hardships, the challenges, the biggest potential failures or actual failures that you're going through in your business and in your life and win on the other side, because you become a better person through the whole thing. [00:23:47] Jason: Love it. Yeah. I mean, running a business can be tough. It can be very hard. Entrepreneurs go through a lot of challenges. I often joke DoorGrow was built on thousands of failures, you know? But we have that hope and we keep moving forward. And so being resilient is essential. [00:24:06] Jason: Being adaptable is essential. Otherwise it's just takes a toll. It takes a toll on our body. It takes a toll on our health. We don't make progress. We don't have as effective of decision making and there's like, if we're not in a state of worry, not in a state of stress, we make infinitely better decisions. [00:24:24] Jason: Like decisions made from fear, decisions made from stress generally are almost never good decisions. So, and if you think about all the decisions we make on a daily basis in our own business, If you just have a healthy mindset, you will be at a very different place, even in a short period of time. And I've had periods of stagnancy. [00:24:43] Jason: I've had periods of hardship and I've had periods of like dramatic growth.  [00:24:47] Rich: Yeah. And transition. I love the graphic and I'm sure everybody's seen it where two guys are digging and one guy is giving up and the other guy keeps going and the diamonds are right there. The gold is right there. Okay. Right. The guy who gives up is one foot away from the gold and the guy who keeps digging hits it because he just went that one extra foot. [00:25:07] Rich: And to me, that is that point of exasperation where you're saying, "Oh my gosh, this is the worst day of my life. The worst month of my life. This is so challenging. It's, everything's wrong. And you embrace the change and suddenly things change faster." Now you may not strike the gold that you want. You may not win the biggest account you want, but I mean, look, you can read the biography on Elon Musk with his story of SpaceX and Tesla, and he was betting the farm on both of them. He was down to two weeks of payroll, I think when NASA came in with a one and a half billion dollar check to fund the rocket boosters they wanted. Like he is at the absolute lowest point and boom, the greatest thing happens. [00:25:42] Jason: You know, when we take these risks, they create great stories. And even if it doesn't work out, the risk, it still makes a great story. It does. Because we're going to figure it out. The one thing is if we're committed, if we're committed to getting the result, it's inevitable. [00:25:56] Jason: It will eventually come. It might take a little longer, but yeah, if we're committed and man, like, yeah, he took some big risks. He was committed.  [00:26:04] Rich: Yeah, but it comes back to you. I've met so many entrepreneurs who do stress out. They lose sleep. In fact, one of the most common things I hear from entrepreneurs is, "Hey, what makes you lose sleep at night?" Nothing. Honestly, my three year old makes me lose sleep, but losing business, man, it doesn't bother me in the same way that I think a lot of other people do. And that's because I know who I am. I know what my beliefs are and I've challenged myself to change the ones that don't work.  [00:26:31] Rich: I'll give you one other example here, Jason, to think about, and again, this is not a judgment towards anybody. [00:26:36] Rich: I was in an audience of entrepreneurs, man, I don't know, 12, 15 years ago. And the guy on stage said, "okay, everybody here, raise your hand. If you have ADHD," I was maybe one of two people who didn't raise their hands. I've never been diagnosed with ADHD and I refuse to accept the label of ADHD for whatever purpose the label means. [00:26:55] Rich: What if though, what if ADHD is your superpower? And what if the label of ADHD of treating it with drugs and you can't stay focused and still is a negative by all the other aliens on this planet? Because you said as entrepreneurs, we feel alien. What if it's everybody else's assessment of you versus your own? [00:27:12] Rich: What if your own assessment was your ADHD is actually your superpower?  [00:27:16] Rich: Sure. You've got the ability to hyper focus. You've got the ability to like do something unique or exceptional. Yeah.  [00:27:22] Rich: Or switch gears on 10 conversations in a day, because that's what happens during your day as an entrepreneur.  [00:27:28] Jason: Yeah. [00:27:28] Rich: Right. And adaptability. So I look at that again, going back to how I view your belief systems and my book on change, is that you can take something that a lot of people look at as, "Oh, that's harmful for our relationship or whatever. I say, no, I'm going to turn it into my superpower." [00:27:44] Rich: And take a different view of it because it's you. It's not me. It's not my judgment of you. It's your own judgment of you. How do you want to be? Yeah, I'm excited to share this with everybody when we get up there.  [00:27:55] Jason: Yeah, it'll be awesome to have you there. You know, the reason I'm having you come and other speakers that have nothing to do with property management, by the way, for the property managers, is I find that it's never really a business issue that's holding people back in business. [00:28:09] Jason: And I mean, I've talked to thousands of property managers, I've coached hundreds. And when I dig in it's never that they're focusing too little time on their business that's the problem. It's always related to mindset, self belief. You know, that's really what's holding them back. And so I think this, this'll, this'll be really awesome. [00:28:31] Jason: I'm really excited for you to benefit our clients that'll be at this event. And those of you that are not yet clients that are coming to DoorGrow Live, I think this'll be a game changer for them to just kind of shift their mindset a little bit and increase their resiliency. So, yeah, I'm excited for that. [00:28:46] Rich: Yeah. I am equally excited because you said one of the four pillars is contribution. And I didn't write this book for my business. It has nothing to do with software and efficiency. I wrote this book because my sister and her husband at the time were at the beginning of a divorce and they were both coming to me independently to ask me questions and I'm helping them. [00:29:04] Rich: And they both independently said, "Rich, you should write a book about this someday." And it was on Thanksgiving that year when they both tried to use me as a conduit to each other, where I said, "I'm fed up, I'm done." And honestly, Jason, I just spent the next whatever days until the 23rd of December writing the book. [00:29:20] Rich: I stopped watching TV and it just flooded out of me. I never thought I'd write a book. I don't even like reading books. I listen. So I wrote the book before Christmas and then I hand bound it and gave it to them as a gift and it went nowhere. It was lost on them.  [00:29:32] Jason: Yeah.  [00:29:33] Rich: And then I realized, man, I've got this thing. [00:29:35] Rich: I've got to get it out there to the world and help other people, because this is one of the ways I get to contribute in the world. Yeah. My business contributes too, and I love that, but at the core of who I am personally, I want to empower people to be their best version of themselves. Yeah. I can do that with the book. [00:29:50] Rich: I can do that with the podcast I have. I can do that with the software that we generate. There's a lot of ways to have that effect. And that is my lightning rod. So when you ask me to come speak, it's an easy yes, because this is an opportunity for me to help others become their best version of themselves. [00:30:06] Rich: Maybe by giving them a tool set that they can then use to implement for themselves and create the person they've always wanted to be, or they know is inside of them that's afraid to come out or just maybe just one behavioral change. I don't know. It's up to them.  [00:30:19] Jason: I love books. I think books are awesome. [00:30:21] Jason: I read lots and lots of books. I'm reading books all the time. Like I usually have like three or four books I'm reading at a time because maybe I am ADHD, but you know, I get bored of something and I then focus on something else or whatever. I love books. What I've noticed though, because I've gotten to be around a lot of the people that have written some of these books... I pay a lot of money to go to masterminds or events. Like I just got to see Tony Robbins at Funnel Hacking Live. It was really great. I learned some awesome stuff. Right. And I think there's some magic in being able to be around and be in the energy space of the person that is giving you this idea. [00:30:58] Jason: It's not the same. Like being in person and doing stuff, I've noticed this weird thing that people absorb information different. They perceive it different. It's not the same as being on video like this. I've taught lots of people through video and over again, when they would come show up to DoorGrow Live or come in person, things would just click in a different way. [00:31:16] Jason: And I started to call it, mentally I called it the 'real bubble.' I have to pierce this bubble that it's not real. I think our unconscious mind doesn't perceive this as real.  [00:31:26] Rich: Right.  [00:31:27] Jason: Right. But you and I met in person, so we know we're real people. So our unconscious mind is like, "Oh Rich and Jason. We're real people." So we know this, our brain knows this, but until I meet somebody, fist bump them, high five, give them a hug, whatever, like, and they see me in person, my clients don't get as big of results.  [00:31:45] Rich: Yeah.  [00:31:45] Jason: Their unconscious mind is somehow like "Oh, this is that digital universe or TV universe. That's not real. I don't know." So if they come and like experience this... even if you get his book, like get his book, but I'm excited for people to be in your energy field to experience you and for you to teach this and there's something you could say the same words that are exactly in your book, but people will absorb it differently. [00:32:08] Jason: I've seen this over and over again, and they will get so much more out of this. That's why I'm excited to have you come present this. So.  [00:32:14] Rich: Yeah, there's no replacing face to face. There's absolutely no replacement for the energy and the connection that's made when you're face to face. I 100 percent agree and I wish we could do more of it. So i'm glad for the event and the opportunity to do it in my hometown. [00:32:29] Rich: It's great.  [00:32:30] Jason: Yeah, it'd be an easy drive not too far. So yeah All right. So, cool. I'm really excited about this. So for those of you that are listening go to DoorGrowLive.Com get your tickets. This is different than other property management events. Property management events, usually people go to these conferences and they're really there to like hang out at the bar and escape their life and their problems. [00:32:52] Jason: DoorGrow Live's different and you can go to the bar. There's bars at the Kalahari resort. You can do that and you can hang out with people. But people come to our event because they want to be around other people in that space of other people that are really growth minded. And that's who I attract in the industry. [00:33:08] Jason: We have the most growth minded property management business owners. Like these are people that are focused on being a better person, a better husband, a better father, better wife, better parent, you know, whatever. Like, and they're focused on you know, taking care of their team, making a difference in the industry. [00:33:24] Jason: And I really believe good property managers can change the world. They can have a massive ripple effect. They affect all their clients, the investors' lives. They positively impact the tenants' lives. They can have a big ripple effect. They can affect a lot of people. And that's exciting is inspiring for me to be able to, you know, Help benefit them and bring that to the table. [00:33:44] Jason: So these are leaders. These are people that affect families. And so, you know, by you coming and presenting, I think there's definitely a ripple effect and a positive impact that can happen. So if you're a property manager listening and you don't care about any of that stuff, then just don't go to DoorGrow Live, because we don't want you there anyway. [00:34:00] Jason: All right. So Rich, any quick tip that you could give to people before we wrap up our conversation and then how can people, you know, get ahold of you and, or you know, or whatever you want to plug. Floor's yours  [00:34:12] Rich: I'm going to leave everybody with one of my core beliefs. That is an empowering one. [00:34:17] Rich: And it's this: confidence is knowledge of yourself. We all want more confidence, right?  [00:34:22] Rich: And the reason I call it knowledge of yourself is because you should be able to take confidence and apply it to any given situation. It's not a hundred percent confident all the time. It's confident about something you're doing. [00:34:33] Rich: My typing speed's near a hundred words per minute. I have absolute confidence in my ability to type, for example, right?  [00:34:39] Jason: Yeah.  [00:34:40] Rich: My, my other skills may not be the same. So how do you build confidence? It's you build knowledge of yourself and it's a lot of what we've been talking about is your own personal growth and who you are and all that's going to lead to more confidence. [00:34:53] Rich: So that's just one of the things I'll share. Best way to find me probably LinkedIn. I'm the Quik! Forms CEO and that's Q U I K. There is no C in the word 'quick' for my company. You could try to email me as well. rwalker@quikforms.Com. You could spell it with a C because we own both domains, but yeah, if you reach out to me on LinkedIn, there's one thing you should do, send me a personalized note, tell me why you want to meet me because I'm very happy to meet you and share my network with you. But if you're trying to sell me and spam me, I don't answer those. So just give me a personal note and I'm very happy to talk to you.  [00:35:23] Jason: Just say, "Hey, I heard about you on the DoorGrow podcast and you know, the property management growth podcast like..."  [00:35:30] Rich: Yeah. And I'll look, I'll plug one little thing. I don't know how relevant it is to your audience, but my podcast is called The Customer Wins. And I talked to business leaders about how they help their customers win, how they overcome challenges of growth, how they create a really excellent customer experience. [00:35:45] Rich: And about 20 percent of my guests come in with totally different perspectives. I had a custom suit broker on, I had a golf pro, I had a magician and the majority of people in the financial services space. But I'm telling you, there's a lot you can learn about building a better customer experience from listening to people talk about it and hear about it. [00:36:03] Rich: So I've studied that a lot for several years. Like that's, it's a big deal to me. I mean, you have to, if you're running a coaching business, coaching businesses are generally high churn. Education businesses are really like a low engagement. Yeah. So I've had to figure a lot of things out to make this go really well,  [00:36:19] Rich: so, yeah. [00:36:20] Rich: Yeah. Well, I mean, I really don't care about how many subscribers or listens I get on my podcast. That's not what I care about. I want people to get value. Yeah. So if you get value from it, awesome. Let me know. Awesome. Very cool.  [00:36:32] Jason: 110 words per minute. It's pretty fast. Do you type on QWERTY or did you change your keyboard? [00:36:37] Rich: No, I type on a normal keyboard. At one point I was at 115. Right now I'm around 100. I bought a device called a Kara quarter, which is a totally different configuration where you can type about 300 words per minute, but I've yet to learn it new skill. I'm just not picking on yet.  [00:36:51] Jason: So. I hear a lot of world typing speed records are set in Dvorak and I switched to Dvorak simply because my wrist started hurting when I was going through college. [00:37:02] Jason: So I actually pop all the keys off all my keyboards and rearrange them into Dvorak. So I know I'm a nerd. So, and you just change the setting. On Mac books and Mac keyboards, it's like doing brain surgery. It'd be really careful, but for the geeks out there. Maybe you'd appreciate this, but it has the most commonly used vowels on the home row of the left hand and the most commonly used consonants on the home row of the right hand. [00:37:27] Jason: Oh, that makes sense. And so world speed record. So, and it took me like a month to just get used to it. Like you would pick it up really fast. So how fast are you? I'm not that fast. I just did it because my wrists were hurting. I actually don't type that much. Honestly, you know, I'm like talking and drawing a lot more than I'm typing, but I'm probably faster than I would be with QWERTY. [00:37:50] Jason: So I don't know. I've never really like done a speed test or, you know, typing test to see, but I don't think I'd beat you. That's my guess, your QWERTY handicap. So, cause QWERTY was designed to slow down typewriters.  [00:38:04] Rich: Like the hammer strike colliding. Yeah. Of the old type that, yeah. So I'll leave you with a fun fact. [00:38:11] Rich: The average typing speed in my company is about 85 words per minute.  [00:38:14] Jason: Nice. Okay. It's pretty good.  [00:38:15] Rich: Tell you there's people faster than me here. Yes.  [00:38:18] Jason: Yeah. Cool. Well, Hey Rich, great to have you on here. Appreciate you hanging out with me and I'm excited to have you at DoorGrow Live.  [00:38:25] Jason: My pleasure. And thank you for having me today, Jason. [00:38:27] Jason: All right. So for those that are, you know, struggling with growth, you're wanting to figure out how to grow your property management business, or you're just getting stuck in the operational challenges. You're tired of telling your team all the time, thinking, "why won't they just think for themselves" and frustrated and you're dealing with operational systems challenges to get to that next level, reach out to us at DoorGrow. [00:38:49] Jason: We might be able to change your life. So, go to DoorGrow. com. And if you'd like to join our free community and Facebook group and, you know, learn about us get access to you know, some free stuff, go to doorgrowclub.Com to join our community. And of course, go check out DoorGrowLive.Com, get your tickets. [00:39:08] Jason: It's going to be in May and we would love to see there in person. And a little bit of that DoorGrow magic is going to change your life. We'll see you there. Bye everyone.

If you find influencers ridiculous, this is the episode for you. TikTok sensation Shabaz Ali spends his time finding their most ridiculous promotions and videos and rips the piss out of them from inside his burrito hoodie. Shabaz sits down with Russell to talk about the most insane things he's seen online (a café for gourmet water? Sellotape roll as a luxury bracelet?) and also chats about his day job as a teacher (including that class where they ate the glue sticks).   It's a fun chat that then develops into a discussion about the creeping harm of this online nonsense. Interesting stuff!   Shabaz is on TikTok and his handle there is @shabazsays. He's also released his first book all about his adventures in the ridiculous world of the influencer which is called ‘I'm Rich You're Poor'. It's in them bookshops right now so get one!   Producer: Dan Atkinson Line Producer: Daisy Knight Exec Producer: James Taylor Composer: Fat Lady Music

Rich Mogull, SVP of Cloud Security at FireMon, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss his career in cybersecurity going back to the early days of cloud. Rich describes how he identified that cloud security would become a huge opportunity in the early days of cloud, as well as how cybersecurity parallels his other jobs in aviation and emergency medicine. Rich and Corey also delve into the history of Rich's involvement in the TidBITS newsletter, and Rich unveils some of his insights into the world of cloud security as a Gartner analyst. About RichRich is the SVP of Cloud Security at FireMon where he focuses on leading-edge cloud security research and implementation. Rich joined FireMon through the acquisition of DisruptOps, a cloud security automation platform based on his research while as CEO of Securosis. He has over 25 years of security experience and currently specializes in cloud security and DevSecOps, having starting working hands-on in cloud over 12 years ago. He is also the principle course designer of the Cloud Security Alliance training class, primary author of the latest version of the CSA Security Guidance, and actively works on developing hands-on cloud security techniques. Prior to founding Securosis and DisruptOps, Rich was a Research Vice President at Gartner on the security team. Prior to his seven years at Gartner, Rich worked as an independent consultant, web application developer, software development manager at the University of Colorado, and systems and network administrator.Rich is the Security Editor of TidBITS and a frequent contributor to industry publications. He is a frequent industry speaker at events including the RSA Security Conference, Black Hat, and DefCon, and has spoken on every continent except Antarctica (where he's happy to speak for free -- assuming travel is covered).Links Referenced: FireMon: https://www.firemon.com/. Twitter: https://twitter.com/rmogull Mastodon: [https://defcon.social/@rmogull](https://defcon.social/@rmogull) FireMon Blogs: https://www.firemon.com/blogs/ Securosis Blogs: https://securosis.com/blog TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. My guest today is Rich Mogull, SVP of Cloud Security over at FireMon now that I'm a bit too old to be super into Pokémon, so I forget which one that is. Rich, thanks for joining me. I appreciate it.Rich: Thank you. Although I think we need to be talking more Digimon than Pokémon. Not that I want to start a flame war on the internet in the first two minutes of the conversation.Corey: I don't even have the level of insight into that. But I will say one of the first areas where you came to my notice, which I'm sure you'll blame yourself for later, is that you are the security editor behind TidBITS, which is, more or less, an ongoing newsletter longer than I've been in the space, to my understanding. What is that, exactly?Rich: So, TidBITS is possibly the longest-running—one of the longest-running newsletters on the internet these days and it's focused on all things Apple. So, TidBITS started back in the very early days as kind of more of an email, I think like, 30 years ago or something close to that. And we just write a lot about Apple and I've been reading about Apple security there.Corey: That's got to be a bit of an interesting experience compared to my writing about AWS because people have opinions about AWS, particularly, you know, folks who work there, but let's be clear, there is nothing approaching the zealotry, I think I want to call it, of certain elements of the Apple ecosystem whenever there is the perception of criticism about the company that they favor. And I want to be clear here to make sure I don't get letters myself for saying this: if there's an Apple logo on a product, I will probably buy it. I have more or less surrounded myself with these things throughout the course of the last ten years. So, I say this from a place of love, but I also don't wind up with people threatening me whenever I say unkind things about AWS unless they're on the executive team.Rich: So, it's been a fascinating experience. So, I would say that I'm on the tail end of being involved with kind of the Mac journalist community. But I've been doing this for over 15 years is kind of what I first started to get involved over there. And for a time, I wrote most of the security articles for Macworld, or a big chunk of those, I obviously was writing over a TidBITS. I've been very lucky that I've never been on the end of the death threats and the vitriol in my coverage, even though it was balanced, but I've also had to work a lot—or have a lot of conversations with Apple over the years.And what will fascinate you is at what point in time, there were two companies in the world where I had an assigned handler on the PR team, and one was Apple and then the other was AWS. I will say Apple is much better at PR than [laugh] AWS, especially their keynotes, but we can talk about re:Invent later.Corey: Absolutely. I have similar handlers at a number of companies, myself, including of course, AWS. Someone has an impossible job over there. But it's been a fun and exciting world. You're dealing with the security side of things a lot more than I am, so there's that additional sensitivity that's tied to it.And I want to deviate for a second here, just because I'm curious to get your take on this given that you are not directly representing one of the companies that I tend to, more or less, spend my time needling. It seems like there's a lot of expectation on companies when people report security issues to them, that you're somehow going to dance to their tune and play their games the entire time. It's like, for a company that doesn't even have a public bug bounties process, that feels like it's a fairly impressively high bar. On some level, I could just report this via Twitter, so what's going on over there? That feels like it's very much an enterprise world expectation that probably means I'm out of step with it. But I'm curious to get your take.Rich: Out of step with which part of it? Having the bug bounty programs or the nature of—Corey: Oh, no. That's beside the point. But having to deal with the idea of oh, an independent security researcher shows up. Well, now they have to follow our policies and procedures. It's in my world if you want me to follow your policies and procedures, we need a contract in place or I need to work for you.Rich: Yeah, there is a long history about this and it is so far beyond what we likely have time to get into that goes into my history before I even got involved with dealing with any of the cloud pieces of it. But a lot about responsible disclosure, coordinated disclosure, no more free bugs, there's, like, this huge history around, kind of, how to handle these pieces. I would say that the core of it comes from, particularly in some of the earlier days, there were researchers who wanted to make their products better, often as you criticize various things, to speak on behalf of the customer. And with security, that is going to trigger emotional responses, even among vendors who are a little bit more mature. Give you an example, let's talk about Apple.When I first started covering them, they were horrific. I actually, some of the first writing I did that was public about Apple was all around security and their failures on security disclosures and their inability to work with security researchers. And they may struggle still, but they've improved dramatically with researcher programs, and—but it was iterative; it really did take a cultural change. But if you really want to know the bad stories, we have to go back to when I was writing about Oracle when I was a Gartner analyst.Corey: Oh, dear. I can only imagine how that played out. They have been very aggressive when it comes to smacking down what they perceive to be negative coverage of anything that they decide they like.Rich: Yeah, you know, if I would look at how culturally some of these companies deal with these things when I was first writing about some of the Oracle stuff—and remember, I was a Gartner analyst, not a vulnerability researcher—but I'm a hacker; I go to Blackhat and DEF CON. I'm friends with the people who are smarter than me at that or have become friends with them over the years. And I wrote a Gartner research note saying, “You probably shouldn't buy any more Oracle until they fix their vulnerability management process.” That got published under the Gartner name, which that may have gotten some attention and created some headaches and borderline legal threats and shade and all those kinds of things. That's an organization that looks at security as a PR problem. Even though they say they're more secure, they look at security as a PR problem. There are people in there who are good at security, but that's different. Apple used to be like that but has switched. And then Amazon is… learning.Corey: There is a lot of challenge around basically every aspect of communication because again, to me, a big company is one that has 200 people. I think that as soon as you wind up getting into the trillion-dollar company scale, everything you say gets you in trouble with someone, somehow, somewhere, so the easiest thing to do is to say nothing. The counterpoint is that on some point of scale, you hit a level where you need a fair bit of scrutiny; it's deserved at this point because you are systemically important, and them's the breaks.Rich: Yeah, and they have improved. A lot of the some of the larger companies have definitely improved. Microsoft learned a bunch of those lessons early on. [unintelligible 00:07:33] the product in Azure, maybe we'll get there at some point. But you have to—I look at it both sides a little bit.On the vendor side, there are researchers who are unreasonable because now that I'm on the vendor side for the first time in my career, if something gets reported, like, it can really screw up plans and timing and you got to move developer resources. So, you have outside influences controlling you, so I get that piece of it. But the reality is if some researcher discovered it, some China, Russia, random criminals are going to discover it. So, you need to deal with those issues. So, it's a bit of control. You lose control of your messaging and everything; if marketing gets their hands in this, then it becomes ugly.On the other hand, you have to, as a vendor, always realize that these are people frequently trying to make your products better. Some may be out just to extort you a little bit, whatever. That's life. Get used to it. And in the end, it's about putting the customers first, not necessarily putting your ego first and your marketing first.Corey: Changing gears slightly because believe it or not, neither you nor I have our primary day jobs focused on, you know, journalism or analyst work or anything like that these days, we focus on these—basically cloud, for lack of a better term—through slightly different lenses. I look at it through cost—which is of course architecture—and you look at it through the lens of security. And I will point out that only one of us gets called at three in the morning when things get horrible because of the bill is a strictly business-hours problem. Don't think that's an accident as far as what I decided to focus on. What do you do these days?Rich: You mean, what do I do in my day-to-day job?Corey: Well, it feels like a fair question to ask. Like, what do you do as far as day job, personal life et cetera. Who is Rich Mogull? You've been a name on the internet for a long time; I figured we'd add some color and context to it.Rich: Well, let's see. I just got back from a flying lesson. I'm honing in on my getting ready for my first solo. My side gig is as a disaster response paramedic. I dressed up as a stormtrooper for the 501st Legion. I've got a few kids and then I have a job. I technically have two jobs. So—Corey: I'm envious of some of those things. I was looking into getting into flying but that path's not open to me, given that I have ADHD. And there are ways around it in different ways. It's like no, no, you don't understand. With my given expression of it, I am exactly the kind of person that should not be flying a plane, let's be very clear here. This is not a regulatory thing so much as it is a, “I'm choosing life.”Rich: Yeah. It's a really fascinating thing because it's this combination of a physical and a mental challenge. And I'm still very early in the process. But you know, I cracked 50, it had always been a life goal to do this, and I said, “You know what? I'm going to go do it.”So, first thing, I get my medical to make sure I can actually pass that because I'm over 50, and then from there, I can kind of jump into lessons. Protip though: don't start taking lessons right as summer is kicking in in Phoenix, Arizona, with winds and heat that messes up your density altitude, and all sorts of fun things like that because it's making it a little more challenging. But I'm glad I'm doing it.Corey: I have to imagine. That's got to be an interesting skill set that probably doesn't have a huge amount of overlap with the ins and outs of the cloud business. But maybe I'm wrong.Rich: Oh God, Corey. The correlations between information security—my specialty, and cloud security as a subset of that—aviation, and emergency medicine are incredible. These are three areas with very similar skill sets required in terms of thought processes. And in the case of both the paramedic and aviation, there's physical skills and mental skills at the same time. But how you look at incidents, how you process things algorithmically, how you—your response times, checklists, the correlations.And I've been talking about two of those three things for years. I did a talk a couple years ago, during Covid, my Blackhat talk on the “Paramedics Guide to Surviving Cybersecurity,” where I talked a lot about these kinds of pieces. And now aviation is becoming another part of that. Amazing parallels between all three. Very similar mindsets are required.Corey: When you take a look at the overall sweep of the industry, you've been involved in cloud for a fairly long time. I have, too, but I start off as a cynic. I started originally when I got into the space, 2006, 2007, thinking virtualization was a flash in the pan because of the security potential impact of this. Then cloud was really starting to be a thing and pfff, that's not likely to take off. I mean, who's going to trust someone else to run all of their computing stuff?And at this point, I've learned to stop trying to predict the future because I generally get it 180 degrees wrong, which you know, I can own that. But I'm curious what you saw back when you got into this that made you decide, yeah, cloud has legs. What was that?Rich: I was giving a presentation with this guy, Chris Hoff, a good friend of mine. And Chris and I joined together are individual kind of research threads and were talking about, kind of, “Disruptive Innovation and the Future of Security.” I think that was the title. And we get that at RSA, we gave that at SOURCE Boston, start kind of doing a few sessions on this, and we talked about grid computing.And we were looking at, kind of, the economics of where things were going. And very early, we also realized that on the SaaS side, everybody was already using cloud; they just didn't necessarily know it and they called them Application Service Providers. And then the concepts of cloud in the very early days were becoming compelling. It really hit me the first time I used it.And to give you perspective, I'd spent years, you know, seven years as a Gartner analyst getting hammered with vendors all the time. You can't really test those technologies out because you can never test them in a way that an enterprise would use them. Even if I had a lab, the lab would be garbage; and we know this. I don't trust things coming out of labs because that does not reflect operational realities at enterprise scale. Coming out of Gartner, they train me to be an enterprise guy. You talk about a large company being 200? Large companies start at 3000 to 5000 employees.Corey: Does that map to cloud services the way that AWS expresses? Because EKS, you're going to manage that differently in an enterprise environment—or any other random AWS service; I'm just picking EKS as an example on this. But I can spin up a cluster and see what it's like in 15 minutes, you know, assuming the cluster gets with the program. And it's the same type of thing I would use in an enterprise, but I'm also not experiencing it in the enterprise-like way with the processes and the gating and the large team et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Do you think it's still a fair comparison at that point?Rich: Yeah, I think it absolutely is. And this is what really blew my mind. 11 or 12 years ago, when I got my first cloud account setup. I realized, oh, my God. And that was, there was no VPC, there was no IAM. It was ephemeral—and—no, we just had EBS was relatively new, and IAM was API only, it wasn't in the console yet.Corey: And the network latency was, we'll charitably call it non-deterministic.Rich: That was the advantage of not running anything at scale, wasn't an issue at the time. But getting the hands-on and being able to build what I could build so quickly and easily and with so little friction, that was mind-blowing. And then for me, the first time I've used security groups I'm like, “Oh, my God, I have the granularity of a host firewall with the manageability of a network firewall?” And then years later, getting much deeper into how AWS networking and all the other pieces were—Corey: And doesn't let it hit the host, which I always thought a firewall that lets—Rich: Yes.Corey: —traffic touch the host is like a seatbelt that lets your face touch the dashboard.Rich: Yeah. The first thing they do, they go in, they're going to change the rules. But you can't do that. It's those layers of defense. And then I'm finding companies in the early days who wanted to put virtual appliances in front of everything. And still do. I had calls last week about that.But those are the things that really changed my mind because all of a sudden, this was what the key was, that I didn't fully realize—and it's kind of something that's evolved into something I call the ‘Grand Unified Theory of Cloud Governance,' these days—but what I realized was those barriers are gone. And there is no way to stop this as people want to build and test and deploy applications because the benefits are going to be too strong. So, grab onto the reins, hold on to the back of the horse, you're going to get dragged away, and it's your choice if your arm gets ripped off in the process or if you're going to be able to ride that thing and at least steer it in the general direction that you need it to go in.Corey: One of the things that really struck me when I started playing around with cloud for more than ten minutes was everything you say is true, but I can also get started today to test out an idea. And most of them don't work, but if something hits, suddenly I don't have the data center constraints, whereas today, I guess you'd call it, I built my experiment MVP on top of a Raspberry Pi and now I have to wait six weeks for Dell to send me something that isn't a piece of crap that I can actually take production traffic on. There's no okay, and I'll throw out the junky hardware and get the good stuff in once you start hitting a point of scale because you're already building on that stuff without the corresponding massive investment of capital to get there.Rich: Yeah well, I mean, look, I lived this, I did a startup that was based on demos at a Blackhat—sorry, at a Blackhat. Blackhat. Did some demos on stage, people were like, “We want your code.” It was about cloud security automation. That led to doing your startup, the thing called DisruptOps, which got acquired, and that's how I ended up at FireMon. So, that's the day job route where I ended up.And what was amazing for that is, to add on to what you said, first of all, the friction was low; once we get the architecture right, scalability is not something we are hugely concerned with, especially because we're CI/CD. Oh, no, we hit limits. Boom, let's just stand up a new version and redirect people over there. Problem solved. And then the ability to, say, run multiple versions of our platform simultaneously? We're doing that right now. We just had to release an entirely free version of it.To do that. It required back-end architectural changes for cost, not for scalability so much, but for a lot around cost and scheduling because our thing was event-driven, we're able to run that and run our other platform fully in parallel, all shared data structures, shared messaging structures. I can't even imagine how hard that would have not been to do in a traditional data center. So, we have a lot of freedom, still have those cost constraints because that's [laugh] your thing, but the experimentation, the ability to integrate things, it's just oh, my God, it's just exciting.Corey: And let's be clear, I, having spent a lot of time as a rat myself in these data centers, I don't regret handing a lot of that responsibility off, just because, let's not kid ourselves, they are better at replacing failed or failing hardware than I will ever be. That's part of the benefit you get from the law of large numbers.Rich: Yeah. I don't want to do all of that stuff, but we're hovering around something that is kind of—all right, so former Gartner analyst means I have a massive ego, and because of that, I like to come up with my own terms for things, so roll with me here. And it's something I'm calling the ‘Grand Unified Theory of Cloud Governance' because you cannot possibly get more egotistical than referring to something as your solution to the biggest problem in all of physics. The idea is, is that cloud, as we have just been discussing, it drops friction and it decentralizes because you don't have to go ask somebody for the network, you don't have to ask somebody for the server. So, all of a sudden, you can build a full application stack without having to call somebody for help. We've just never had that in IT before.And all of our governance structures—and this includes your own costs, as well as security—are built around scarcity. Scarcity of resources, natural choke points that evolved from the data center. Not because it was bad. It wasn't bad. We built these things because that's what we needed for that environment at the data center.Now, we've got cloud and it's this whole new alien technology and it decentralizes. That said, particularly for us on security, you can build your whole application stack, of course, we have completely unified the management interfaces in one place and then we stuck them on the internet, protected with nothing more than a username and password. And if you can put those three things together in your head, you can realize why these are such dramatic changes and so challenging for enterprises, why my kids get to go to Disney a fair bit because we're in demand as security professionals.Corey: What does FireMon do exactly? That's something that I'm not entirely up to speed on, just because please don't take this the wrong way, but I was at RSA this year, and it feels like all the companies sort of blend together as you walk between the different booths. Like, “This is what you should be terrified of today.” And it always turns into a weird sales pitch. Not that that's what you do, but it at some point just blinds me and overloads me as far as dealing with any of the cloud security space.Rich: Oh, I've been going to RSA for 20 years. One of our SEs, I was briefly at our booth—I'm usually in outside meetings—and he goes, “Do you see any fun and interesting?” I go—I just looked at him like I was depressed and I'm like, “I've been to RSA for 20 years. I will never see anything interesting here again. Those days are over.” There's just too much noise and cacophony on that show floor.What do we do? So—Corey: It makes re:Invent's Expo Hall look small.Rich: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's the show over at RSA. And it wasn't always. I mean, it was—it's always been big as long as I've been there, but yeah, it's huge, everyone is there, and they're all saying exactly the same thing. This year, I think the only reason it wasn't all about AI is because they couldn't get the printers to reprint the banners fast enough. Not that anybody has any products that would do anything there. So—you look like you want to say something there.Corey: No, no. I like the approach quite a bit. It's the, everything was about AI this year. It was a hard pivot from trying to sell me a firewall, which it seems like everyone was doing in the previous year. It's kind of wild. I keep saying that there's about a dozen companies that exhibit at RSA. A guess, there are hundreds and hundreds of booths, but it all distills down to the same 12 things. They have different logos and different marketing stories, but it does seem like a lot of stuff is very much just like the booth next to it on both sides.Rich: Yeah. I mean, that's—it's just the nature. And part of—there's a lot of reasons for this. We used to, when I was—so prior to doing the startup thing and then ending up at FireMon, I did Securosis, which was an analyst firm, and we used to do the Securosis guide to RSA every year where we would try and pick the big themes. And the reality is, there's a reason for that.I wrote something once the vendors lied to you because you want them to. It's the most dysfunctional relationship because as customers, you're always asking, “Well, what are you doing for [unintelligible 00:22:16]? What are you doing for zero trust? What are you doing for AI?” When those same customers are still just working on fundamental patch management and firewall management. But it doesn't stop them from asking the questions and the vendors have to have answers because that's just the nature of that part of the world.Corey: I will ask you, over are past 12 years—I have my own thoughts on this, but I want to hear your take on it—what's changed in the world of cloud security?Rich: Everything. I mean, I was one of the first to be doing this.Corey: Oh, is that all?Rich: Yeah. So, there's more people. When I first started, very few people doing it, nobody knew much about it outside AWS, we all knew each other. Now, we've got a community that's developed and there's people that know what they're doing. There's still a shortage of skills, absolutely still a shortage of skills, but we're getting a handle on that, you know? We're getting a bit of a pipeline.And I'd say that's still probably the biggest challenge faced. But what's improved? Well, it's a give-and-take. On one hand, we now have strategies, we have tools that are more helpful, unfortunately—I'll tell you the biggest mistake I made and it ties to the FireMon stuff in my career, in a minute; relates directly to this question, but we're kind of getting there on some of the tool pieces.On the other hand, that complexity is increasing faster. And that's what's made it hard. So, as much as we're getting more skilled people, better at tooling, for example, we kind of know—and we didn't have CloudTrail when I started. We didn't have the fundamental things you need to actually implement security at the start of cloud. Most of those are there; they may not be working the way we wish they always worked, but we've got the pieces to assemble it, depending on which platform you're on. That's probably the biggest change. Now, we need to get into the maturity phase of cloud, and that's going to be much more difficult and time-consuming to kind of get over that hump.Corey: It's easy to wind up saying, “Oh, I saw the future so clearly back then,” but I have to ask, going back 12 years, the path the world would take was far from certain. Did you have doubts?Rich: Like, I had presented with Chris Hoff. We—we're still friends—presented stuff together, and he got a job that was kind of clouding ancillary. And I remember calling him up once and going, “Chris, I don't know what to do.” I was running my little analyst firm—little. We were doing very, very well—I could not get paid to do any work around cloud.People wanted me to write shitty papers on DLP and take customer inquiries on DLP because I had covered that at the Gartner days, and data encryption and those pieces. That was hard. And fortunately, a few things started trickling in. And then it was a flood. It completely changed our business and led to me, you know, eventually going down into the vendor path. But that was a tough day when I hit that point. So, absolutely I knew it was the future. I didn't know if I was going to be able to make a living at it.Corey: It would seem that you did.Rich: Yeah. Worked out pretty well [laugh].Corey: You seem sprightly to me. Good work. You're not on death's door.Rich: No. You know, in fact, the analyst side of it exploded over the years because it turns out, there weren't people who had this experience. So, I could write code to the APIs, but they'll still talk with CEOs and boards of directors around these cloud security issues and frame them in ways that made sense to them. So, that was wonderful. We partnered up with the Cloud Security Alliance, I actually built a bunch of the CSA training, I wrote the current version of the CSA guidance, we're writing the next version of that, did a lot of research with them. They've been a wonderful partner.So, all that went well. Then I got diverted down onto the vendor path. I had this research idea and then it came out, we ended up founding that as a startup and then it got, as I mentioned, acquired by FireMon, which is interesting because FireMon, you asked what we did, it's firewall policy management is the core of the company. Yet the investors realize the company was not going in the right direction necessarily, to deal with the future of cloud. They went to their former CEO and said, “Hey, can you come back”—the founder of the company—“And take this over and start moving us in the right direction?”Well, he happened to be my co-founder at the startup. And so, we kind of came in and took over there. And so, now it's a very interesting position because we have this one cloud-native thing we built for all these years. We made one mistake with that, which I'll talk about which ties back to your predicting the future piece if you want to go into it, but then we have the network firewall piece now extending into hybrid, and we have an asset management moving into the attack surface management space as well. And both of those products have been around for, like, 15-plus years.Corey: No, I'm curious to your thoughts on it because it's been one of those weird areas where there's been so much change and so much evolution, but you also look at today's “OWASP Top 10” list of vulnerabilities, and yeah, they updated a year or so ago, but it still looks basically like things that—from 2008—would have made sense to me when I'm looking at this. Well, insomuch as they do now. I didn't know then, nor do I now what a cross-site scripting attack might be, but other than that, I find that there's, “Oh, you misconfigured something and it winds up causing a problem.” Well, no kidding. Imagine that.Rich: Yeah. Look, the fundamentals don't change, but it's still really easy to screw up.Corey: Oh, having done so a lot, I believe you.Rich: There's a couple of principles, and I'll break it into two sides. One is, a lot of security sounds simple. There's nothing simple at scale. Nothing simple scales. The moment you get up to even 200 employees, everything just becomes ridiculously harder. That's the nature of reality. Simplicity doesn't scale.The other part is even though it's always the same, it's still easy to think you're going to be different this time and you're not going to screw it up, and then you do. For example, so cloud, we were talking about the maturity. I assumed CSPM just wasn't going to be a thing. For real. The Cloud Security Posture Management. Because why would the cloud providers not just make that problem go away and then all the vulnerability assessment vendors and everybody else? It seemed like it was an uninteresting problem.And yet, we were building a cloud security automation thing and we missed the boat because we had everything we needed to be one of the very first CSPM vendors on the market and we're like, “No, no. That problem is going to go away. We'll go there.” And it ties back to what you said, which is it's the same stuff and we just outsmarted ourselves. We thought that people would go further faster. And they don't and they aren't.And that's kind of where we are today. We are dramatically maturing. At the same time, the complexity is increasing dramatically. It's just a huge challenge for skills and staffing to adjust governance programs. Like I think we've got another 10 to 20 years to go on this cloud security thing before we even get close. And then maybe we'll get down to the being bored by the problems. But probably not because AI will ruin us.Corey: I'd like to imagine, on some level, that AI could be that good. I mean, don't get me wrong. It has value and it is transformative for a bunch of things, but I also think a lot of the fear-mongering is more than a little overblown.Rich: No, I agree with you. I'm trying to keep a very close eye on it because—I can't remember if you and I talked about this when we met face-to-face, or… it was somebody at that event—AI is just not just AI. There's different. There's the LLMs, there's the different kinds of technologies that are involved. I mean, we use AI all over the place already.I mean my phone's got it built in to take better pictures. It's a matter of figuring out what the use cases and the, honestly, some of the regulatory structure around it in terms of copyright and everything else. I'm not worried about Clippy turning into Skynet, even though I might make jokes about that on Mastodon, maybe someday there will be some challenges, but no, it's just going to be another tech that we're going to figure out over time. It is disruptive, so we can't ignore that part of it.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more, where's the best place to find you that isn't one of the Disney parks?Rich: That really is kind of the best place to find—no. So, these days, I do technically still have a Twitter presence at @rmogull. I'm not on there much, but I will get DMs if people send those over. I'm more on Mastodon. It's at @rmogull defcon.social. I write over at FireMon these days, as well as occasionally still over Securosis, on those blogs. And I'm in the [Cloud Security Slack community 00:30:49] that is now under the banner for CloudSec. That's probably the best place if you want to hit me up and get quick answers on anything.Corey: And I will, of course, include links to all of that in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate it.Rich: Thanks, Corey. I was so happy to be here.Corey: Rich Mogull, SVP of Cloud Security at FireMon. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment talking about how at Dell these days, it does not take six weeks to ship a server. And then I will get back to you in six to eight weeks.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

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No wonder ZipRecruiter is the #1 rated hiring site, based on G2 satisfaction ratings as of Jan. 1, 2022.  So, soak up all that summer has to offer, and let ZipRecruiter do the work. Ready for the URL? It's www.ZipRecruiter.com/b2b. That's where you can try it FOR FREE. Again, that's www.ZipRecruiter.com/b2b. ZipRecruiter. The smartest way to hire. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~- Generate income, don't make it- Your brand must become $365,000 a yearHow To Fix Your Money1. Stop spending it and when you have to spend it, make money when you do. Never spend tomorrow's money, but as you can see, the most of the world, including billionaires affected by the global crisis, all ran their companies with tomorrow's money.- The system is designed to make sure you get in debt- In order to make $1,000 a day you're not going to be able to spend tomorrow's moneyFormula for Not Using Your Own Money to Make $365,000 a Year- $1,000 a day on your own is the equivalent of having a $737,300 a year jobStep 1- 40% of all your money is going to advertising- 20% of your money is going to getting better- 40% of your money is going to operations- There are only 3 ways to make money1. Poor- 100% of your income goes straight to your expenses- Income — Expenses2. Middle- You get your money, go to the financial institution, then the financial institution pays your expenses- Income — Financial Institution — Expenses3. 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Go do something for free- You need testimonies- Sell the testimonies, then never have to sell again- Go get your first customer- Make a choice to be either too cheap or too expensive- Pick a product-2. Immediately change the focus of your business- Have all the faith in the world in your business, but don't keep all your money in your business3. Take the money from your business and put it into a hard asset- Either your business is going to be a slave or you're going to be a slave- Your business is should only be used to buy more assets- Your business is an asset that becomes a slave to get more assetsGo Do Something for Free1. Go get your first customer- Make a choice to be either too cheap or too expensive2. Pick a product- Take the price of your product, divide that price by the total dollar amount you want- $1,000 a day/ $20 product = 50 people a day- Divide your number of people by 0.35- 50/ 0.35 = 143- Double that number- 143 x 2 = 2863. Use the Gary V and ATS Sales Models to talk to the number of people you need to talk to everydayPlatforms to Dominate Right Now1. Podcast (audio & video)2. Your favorite social media3. Your email list- Don't sell anything; let your show notes do the selling- Hook, Story, Pitch- The people who are highly convertible will check out your show notesExample of Show NotesNetworking With People Smarting Than Me - Tempestt S Smith - Becoming A Cyber Security Expert -S1E2Here is a story on Mexit News that is related to today's episode. It should be read in alignment with today's episode.An Introvert's Guide To Networkinghttps://mexitverse.com/an-introverts-...Becoming A Cyber Security Expert Follows Tempestt S Smith, Chief Information Security Officer of ATS JR Companies, as she documents her Cyber Security journey. When Tempestt began, she didn't have any help and did not know where to start. As a result, she has created Becoming A Cyber Security Expert to help everyone have a good starting point of how to break into the Cyber Security Field.Follow Tempestt here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tempestt-...Follow Antonio here: https://www.facebook.com/theatsjrCheck out the entire series at: https://mexitverse.com/category/webse...SHOW LESS

In this episode of the Success Fundamentals Podcast, Kris Sykes and Brian Goldsack talk to Rich Cardona, founder of Rich Cardona Media and the host of the NFT for Newbies Podcast. Rich shares his journey from the Marine Corps to his short stint working in the corporate world, before he decided to jump ship straight into entrepreneurship. Rich also talks about his ideas about leadership. While he thinks leadership is something your work on, it is also something that you notice in yourself early on. Rich also explains that good leadership will always be about helping others, anything else is just ego. HIGHLIGHTSFrom Marine Corps to Corporate to EntrepreneurQuitting corporate job and moving back to parent's basementDo you have what it takes to make it out on your own?Don't be afraid to make changes and pivot to the next thingChase attention more than moneyService is a better fuel than cashShow up exactly as you are, as much as you canIt's best to deal with your demons earlyGet comfortable with monotonous hard workPitching is the worst way to attract clients Good leaders make themselves replaceable over timeTake your leap of faith and be selfish You can always make more moneyAlways check your egoQUOTESRich: "You need to have a self-awareness which is the key to doing anything on your own ever. You know who you are and you know who you aren't. So if you think that you're cut out for this leap of faith, the valleys are far more often than the peaks. It's  just literally like do you look at it as 'I learned so much from that' or 'I am learning so much from this' when a client bails a day before an invoice is due, or something like that."Rich: "If you start to see that something you're doing is garnering a lot of attention, you need to follow that more than money. Because if you can grow that exponentially, then the money is just gonna come piling."Brian: "Some people might never take the journey because they're afraid that they are being selfish and all they're doing is pursuing their own interest or own ambitions. However, once you take the leap, you're going to have to come to grips that even in your selfishness, you will have to be of service to other people anyway. So be selfish, say, 'I'm gonna do this' and then in your selfish pursuits you're gonna have to help people."Rich: "You should never say 'I'm a leader'. You shouldn't designate. Let other people designate that for you. And then, if that's the signal, that's good. If you find yourself wanting to impart knowledge or experience and help other people then you're probably a leader as well. But it's certainly something that can be worked on, it's certainly something that you can read up on and all these kinds of things. But I think it's just one of those things that you will either notice that you want to serve others, or not."Follow Rich on the following links below: LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/richcardona/Podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/nfts-for-newbies/id1581483443Website - https://richcardonamedia.com/Follow Success Fundamentals on the following links below: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4XCvuwxnFi5_7C6Ncm12xQLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/success-fundamentals™Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/successfundamentalspodcastInstagram: https://instagram.com/successfundamentalspodcast

So, what are the most important elements of an effective PR plan? Hosts Millie and Rich would argue that intent ranks high on that list. On today's episode of Storyology, Millie and Rich describe the core factors that go into any successful PR campaign. Spoiler alert: most of them involve intent! Intent is Crucial... Rich explains that intent starts with identifying the “why.” In order to define the “why,” you must be able to ask the right questions to your clients. To curate the best questions, understanding the goal of the piece is imperative. Rich tells listeners that they must determine who it is that they ultimately WANT to influence. The Importance of Intentional Questions... Throughout the Storyology series, Millie and Rich have highlighted the importance of questions. In this Storyology segment, they point to the connections between intent and questions. Millie offers some helpful tips for getting intentional answers from your clients, masterfully shaping the client's story with questions, and approaching a story from multiple angles to glean new insights. Not All Press Is Good Press… Rich is a staunch believer that not all press is good press. At most companies, the spokespeople have several other larger responsibilities. So, if they're taking time away from their main role to write an article or communicate something with the press, was it worth it? Did this communication tangibly work towards company goals? If not, then a company may want to reconsider its PR approach. Hear more… If you've enjoyed these takeaways, be sure to listen to the full Storyology episode linked below. Also, be sure to listen to, rate and subscribe to our podcast on iTunes, Spotify, Google Play, iHeartRadio or Soundcloud. Quotes • “A lot of companies and people think of PR as a means to put information out there. And they believe that the market will just understand. But PR doesn't operate in a vacuum. It's a partnership.” (00:17-00:25 | Millie) • “It's really understanding what the goal is not just of the piece of writing, but how that piece fits within the overall story that the company is trying to tell. Because everything they do from a product to a partnership, customer to new hire, to new program, all should be a part of a bigger story that is bigger than what they're doing in the moment.” (03:56-04:16 | Rich) •“You just have to understand what are the assets you have to bring and then how you use those to help the market understand the impact you're having.” (05:15-05:26 | Rich) •“​​It doesn't happen without work. It doesn't happen without communicating the right things at the right time.” (14:50-14:58 | Rich) Learn more about Connect2 Communications: Website: https://www.connect2comm.com/ Podcast home page: https://www.connect2comm.com/podcast Twitter handle: @Connect2_Comm Instagram handle: @connect2_comm LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/connect2-communications Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Connect2-Communications

About RichRich Burroughs is a Senior Developer Advocate at Loft Labs where he's focused on improving workflows for developers and platform engineers using Kubernetes. He's the creator and host of the Kube Cuddle podcast where he interviews members of the Kubernetes community. He is one of the founding organizers of DevOpsDays Portland, and he's helped organize other community events. Rich has a strong interest in how working in tech impacts mental health. He has ADHD and has documented his journey on Twitter since being diagnosed.Links: Loft Labs: https://loft.sh Kube Cuddle Podcast: https://kubecuddle.transistor.fm LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richburroughs/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/richburroughs Polywork: https://www.polywork.com/richburroughs TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part my Cribl Logstream. Cirbl Logstream is an observability pipeline that lets you collect, reduce, transform, and route machine data from anywhere, to anywhere. Simple right? As a nice bonus it not only helps you improve visibility into what the hell is going on, but also helps you save money almost by accident. Kind of like not putting a whole bunch of vowels and other letters that would be easier to spell in a company name. To learn more visit: cribl.ioCorey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.scaCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Periodically, I like to have, well, let's call it fun, at the expense of developer advocates; the developer relations folks; DevRelopers as I insist on pronouncing it. But it's been a while since I've had one of those come on the show and talk about things that are happening in that universe. So, today we're going back to change that a bit. My guest today is Rich Burroughs, who's a Senior Developer Advocate—read as Senior DevReloper—at Loft Labs. Rich, thanks for joining me.Rich: Hey, Corey. Thanks for having me on.Corey: So, you've done a lot of interesting things in the space. I think we first met back when you were at Sensu, you did a stint over at Gremlin, and now you're over at Loft. Sensu was monitoring things, Gremlin was about chaos engineering and breaking things on purpose, and when you're monitoring things that are breaking that, of course, leads us to Kubernetes, which is what Loft does. I'm assuming. That's probably not your marketing copy, though, so what is it you folks do?Rich: I was waiting for your Kubernetes trash talk. I knew that was coming.Corey: Yeah. Oh, good. I was hoping I could sort of sneak it around in there.Rich: [laugh].Corey: But yeah, you know me too well.Rich: By the way, I'm not dogmatic about tools, right? I think Kubernetes is great for some things and for some use cases, but it's not the best tool for everything. But what we do is we really focus a lot on the experience of developers who are writing applications that run in Kubernetes cluster, and also on the platform teams that are having to maintain the clusters. So, we really are trying to address the speed bumps, the things that people bang their shins on when they're trying to get their app running in Kubernetes.Corey: Part of the problem I've always found is that the thing that people bang their shins on is Kubernetes. And it's one of those, “Well, it's sort of in the title, so you can't really avoid it. The only way out is through.” You could also say, “It's better never begin; once begun, better finish.” The same thing seems to apply to technology in a whole bunch of different ways.And that's always been a strange thing for me where I would have bet against Kubernetes. In fact, I did, and—because it was incredibly complicated, and it came out of Google, not that someone needed to tell me. It was very clearly a Google-esque product. And we saw it sort of take the world by storm, and we are all senior YAML engineers now. And here we are.And now you're doing developer advocacy, which means you're at least avoiding the problem of actually working with Kubernetes day-in-day out yourself, presumably. But instead, you're storytelling about it.Rich: You know, I spent a good part of my day a couple days ago fighting with my Kubernetes cluster at Docker Desktop. So, I still feel the pain some, but it's a different kind of pain. I've not maintaining it in production. I actually had the total opposite experience to you. So, my introduction to Kubernetes was seeing Kelsey Hightower talk about it in, like, 2015.And I was just hooked. And the reason that I was hooked is because of what Kubernetes did, and I think especially the service primitive, is that it encoded a lot of these operational patterns that had developed into the actual platform. So, things like how you check if an app is healthy, if it's ready to start accepting requests. These are things that I was doing in the shops that I was working at already, but we had to roll it ourselves; we had to invent a way to do that. But when Kelsey started talking about Kubernetes, it became apparent to me that the people who designed this thing had a lot of experience running applications in distributed systems, and they understood what you needed to be able to do that competently.Corey: There's something to be said for packaging and shipping expertise, and it does feel like we're on a bit of a cusp, where the complexity has risen and risen and risen, and it's always a sawtooth graph where things get so complicated that you then are paying people a quarter-million dollars a year to run the thing. And then it collapses in on itself. And the complexity is still there, but it's submerged to a point where you don't need to worry about it anymore. And it feels like we're a couple years away from Kubernetes hitting that, but I do view that as inevitable. Is that, basically, completely out to sea? Is that something that you think is directionally correct, or something else?Rich: I mean, I think that the thing that's been there for a long time is, how do we take this platform and make it actually usable for people? And that's a lot more about the whole CNCF ecosystem than Kubernetes itself. How do we make it so that we can easily monitor this thing, that we can have observability, that we can deploy applications to it? And I think what we've seen over the last few years is that, even more than Kubernetes itself, the tools that allow you to do those other things that you need to do to be able to run applications have exploded and gotten a lot better, I think.Corey: The problem, of course, is the explosion part of it because we look at the other side, at the CNCF landscape diagram, and it is a hilariously overwrought picture of all of the different offerings and products and tools in the space. There are something like 400 blocks on it, the last time I checked. It looks like someone's idea of a joke. I mean, I come up with various shitposts that I'm sort of embarrassed I didn't come up with one anywhere near that funny.Rich: I left SRE a few years ago, and this actually is one of the reasons. So, the explosion in tools gave me a huge amount of imposter syndrome. And I imagine I'm not the only one because you're on Twitter, you're hanging around, you're seeing people talk about all these cool tools that are out there, and you don't necessarily have a chance to play with them, let alone use them in production. And so what I would find myself doing is I would compare myself to these people who were experts on these tools. Somebody who actually invented the thing, like Joe Beda or something like that, and it's obviously unfair to do because I'm not that person. But my brain just wants to do that. You see people out there that know more than you and a lot of times I would feel bad about it. And it's an issue, I really think it is.Corey: So, one of the problems that I ran into when I left SRE was that I was solving the same problem again and again, in rapid succession. I was generally one of the first early SRE-type hires, and, “Oh, everything's on fire, and I know how to fix those things. We're going to migrate out of EC2 Classic into VPCs; we're going to set up infrastructure as code so we're not hand-building these things from scratch every time.” And in time, we wind up getting to a point where it's, okay, there are backups, and it's easy to provision stuff, and things mostly work. And then it becomes tedium, where the day starts to look too much alike.And I start looking for other problems elsewhere in the organization, and it turns out that when you don't have strategic visibility into what other orgs are doing but tell them what they're doing wrong, you're not a popular person; and you're often wrong. And that was a source of some angst in my case. The reason I started what I do now is because I was looking to do something different where no two days look alike, and I sort of found that. Do you find that with respect to developer advocacy, or does it fall into some repetitive pattern? Not there's anything wrong with that; I wish I had the capability to do that, personally.Rich: So, it's interesting that you mentioned this because I've talked pretty publicly about the fact that I've been diagnosed with ADHD a few months ago. You talked about the fact that you have it as well. I loved your Twitter thread about it, by the way; I still recommend it to people. But I think the real issue for me was that as I got more advanced in my career, people assumed that because you have ‘senior' in your title, that you're a good project manager. It's just assumed that as you grow technically and move into more senior roles, that you're going to own projects. And I was just never good at that. I was always very good at reactive things, I think I was good at being on call, I think I was good at responding to incidents.Corey: Firefighting is great for someone with our particular predilections. It's, “Oh, great. There's a puzzle to solve. It's extremely critical that we solve it.” And it gets the adrenaline moving. It's great, “Cool, now fill out a bunch of Jira tickets.” And those things will sit there unfulfilled until the day I die.Rich: Absolutely. And it's still not a problem that I've solved. I'll preface this with the kids don't try this at home advice because everybody's situation is different. I'm a white guy in the industry with a lot of privilege; I've developed a really good network over the years; I don't spend a lot of time worried about what happens if I lose my job, right, or how am I going to get another one. But when I got this latest job that I'm at now, I was pretty open with the CEO who interviewed me—it's a very small company, I'm like employee number four.And so when we talked to him ahead of time, I was very clear with him about the fact that bored Rich is bad. If Rich gets bored with what he's doing, if he's not engaged, it's not going to be good for anyone involved. And so—Corey: He's going to go find problems to solve, and they very well may not align with the problems that you need solved.Rich: Yeah, I think my problem is more that I disengage. Like, I lose my passion for what it is that I'm doing. And so I've been pretty intentional about trying to kind of change it up, make different kinds of content. I happen to be at this place that has four open-source projects, right, along with our commercial project. And so, so far at least, there's been plenty for me to talk about. I haven't had to worry about being bored so far.Corey: Small companies are great for that because you're everyone does everything to some extent; you start spreading out. And the larger a company gets, the smaller your remit is. The argument I always made against working at Google, for example was, let's say that I went in with evil in mind on day one. I would not be able—regardless of how long I was there, how high in the hierarchy I climbed—to take down google.com for one hour—the search engine piece.If I can't have that much impact intentionally, then the question really becomes how much impact can I have in a positive direction with everyone supposedly working in concert with me? And the answer I always came up with was not that much, not in the context of a company like that. It's hard for me to feel relevant to a large company. For better or worse, that is the thing that keeps me engaged is, “You know, if I get this wrong enough, we don't have a company anymore,” is sort of the right spot for me.Rich: [laugh]. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I had been at a number of startups last few years that were fairly early stage, and when I was looking for work this last time, my impulse was to go the opposite direction, was to go to a big company, you know, something that was going to be a little more stable, maybe. But I just was so interested in what these folks were building. And I really clicked with Lukas, the CEO, when we talked, and I ended up deciding to go this route. But there's a flip side to that.There's a lot of responsibility that comes with that, too. Part of me wanting to avoid being in that spotlight, in a way; part of me wanted to back off and be one of the million people building things. But I'm happy that I made this choice, and like I said, it's been working out really well, so far.Corey: It seems to be. You seem happy, which is always a nice thing to be able to pick up from someone in how they go about these things. Talk to me a little bit about what Loft does. You're working on some virtual cluster nonsense that mostly sails past me. Can you explain it using small words?Rich: [laugh]. Yeah, sure. So, if you talk to people who use Kubernetes, a lot, you are—Corey: They seem sad all the time. But please continue.Rich: One of the reasons that they're sad is because of multi-tenancy in Kubernetes; it just wasn't designed with that sort of model in mind. And so what you end up with is a couple of different things that happen. Either people build these shared clusters and feel a whole lot of pain trying to share them because people commonly use namespaces to isolate things, and that model doesn't completely work. Because there are objects like CRDs and things that are global, that don't live in the namespace, and so that can cause pain. Or the other option that people go with is that they just spin up a whole bunch of clusters.So, every team or every developer gets their own cluster, and then you've got all this cluster sprawl, and you've got costs, and it's not great for the environment. And so what we are really focused a lot on with the virtual cluster stuff is it provides people what looks like a full-blown Kubernetes cluster, but it just lives inside the namespace on your host cluster. So, it actually uses K3s, from the Rancher folks, the SUSE folks. And literally, this K3s API server sits in the namespace. And as a user, it looks to you like a full-blown Kubernetes cluster.Corey: Got it. So, basically a lightweight [unintelligible 00:13:31] that winds up stripping out some of the overwrought complexity. Do you find that it winds up then becoming a less high-fidelity copy of production?Rich: Sure. It's not one-to-one, but nothing ever is, right?Corey: Right. It's a question of whether people admit it or not, and where they're willing to make those trade-offs.Rich: Right. And it's a lot closer to production than using Docker Compose or something like that. So yeah, like you said, it's all about trade-offs, and I think that everything that we do as technical people is about trade-offs. You can give everybody their own Kubernetes cluster, you know, would run it in GK or AWS, and there's going to be a cost associated with that, not just financially, but in terms of the headaches for the people administering things.Corey: The hard part from where I've always been sitting has just been—because again, I deal with large-scale build-outs; I come in in the aftermath of these things—and people look at the large Kubernetes environments that they've built and it's expensive, and you look at it from the cloud provider perspective, and it's just a bunch of one big noisy application that doesn't make much sense from the outside because it's obviously not a single application. And it's chatty across availability zone boundaries, so it costs two cents per gigabyte. It has no [affinity 00:14:42] for what's nearby, so instead of talking to the service that is three racks away, it talks the thing over an expensive link. And that has historically been a problem. And there are some projects being made in that direction, but it's mostly been a collective hand-waving around it.And then you start digging into it in other directions from an economics perspective, and they're at large scale in the extreme corner cases, it always becomes this, “Oh, it's more trouble than it's worth.” But that is probably unfair for an awful lot of the real-world use cases that don't rise to my level of attention.Rich: Yeah. And I mean, like I said earlier, I think that it's not the best use case for everything. I'm a big fan of the HashiCorp tools. I think Nomad is awesome. A lot of people use it, they use it for other things.I think that one of the big use cases for Nomad is, like, running batch jobs that need to be scheduled. And there are people who use Nomad and Kubernetes both. Or you might use something like Cloud Run or AppRun, whatever works for you. But like I said, from someone who spent literally decades figuring out how to operate software and operating it, I feel like the great thing about this platform is the fact that it does sort of encode those practices.I actually have a podcast of my own. It's called Kube Cuddle. I talk to people in the Kubernetes community. I had Kelsey Hightower on recently, and the thing that Kelsey will tell you, and I agree with him completely, is that, you know, we talk about the complexity in Kubernetes, but all of that complexity, or a lot of it, was there already.We just dealt with it in other ways. So, in the old days, I was the Kubernetes scheduler. I was the guy who knew which app ran on which host, and deployed them and did all that stuff. And that's just not scalable. It just doesn't work.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build. With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: The hardest part has always been the people aspect of things, and I think folks have tried to fix this through a lens of, “The technology will solve the problem, and that's what we're going to throw at it, and see what happens by just adding a little bit more code.” But increasingly, it doesn't work. It works for certain problems, but not for others. I mean, take a look at the Amazon approach, where every team communicates via APIs—there's no shared data stores or anything like that—and their entire problem is a lack of internal communication. That's why the launch services that do basically the same thing as each other because no one bothers to communicate with one another. And half my job now is introducing Amazonians to one another. It empowers some amazing things, but it has some serious trade-offs. And this goes back to our ADHD aspect of the conversation.Rich: Yeah.Corey: The thing that makes you amazing is also the thing that makes you suck. And I think that manifests in a bunch of different ways. I mean, the fact that I can switch between a whole bunch of different topics and keep them all in state in my head is helpful, but it also makes me terrible, as far as an awful lot of different jobs, where don't come back to finish things like completing the Jira ticket to hit on Jira a second time in the same recording.Rich: Yeah, I'm the same way, and I think that you're spot on. I think that we always have to keep the people in mind. You know, when I made this decision to come to Loft Labs, I was looking at the tools and the tools were cool, but it wasn't just that. It's that they were addressing problems that people I know have. You hear these stories all the time about people struggling with the multi-tenancy stuff and I could see very quickly that the people building the tools were thinking about the people using them, and I think that's super important.Corey: As I check your LinkedIn profile, turns out, no, we met back in your Puppet days, the same era that I was a traveling trainer, teaching people how to Puppet and hoping not to get myself ejected from the premises for using sarcastic jokes about the company that I was conducting the training for. And that was fun. And then I worked at a bunch of places, you worked in a bunch of places, and you mentioned a few minutes ago that we share this privilege where if one of us loses our job, the next one is going to be a difficult thing for us to find, given the skill set that we have, the immense privilege that we enjoy, and the way that this entire industry works. Now, I will say that has changed somewhat since starting my own company. It's no longer the fear of, “Well, I'm going to land on my feet.” Rich: Right.Corey: Yeah, but I've got a bunch of people who are counting on me not to completely pooch this up. So, that's the thing that keeps me awake at night, now. But I'm curious, do you feel like that's given you the flexibility to explore a bunch of different company types and a bunch of different roles and stretch yourself a little with the understanding that, yeah, okay. If you've never last five years at the same company, that's not an inherent problem.Rich: Yeah, it's interesting. I've had conversations with people about this. If you do look up my LinkedIn, you're going to see that a lot of the recent jobs have been less than two years: year, year and a half, things like that. And I think that I do have some of that freedom, now. Those exits haven't always been by choice, right?And that's part of what happens in the industry, too. I think I've been laid off, like, four or five times now in my career. The worst one by far was when the bubble burst back in 2000. I was working at WebMD, and they ended up closing our office here.Corey: You were Doctor Google.Rich: I kind of was. So, I was actually the guy who would deploy the webmd.com site back then. And it was three big Sun servers. And I would manually go in and run shell scripts and take one out of the load balancer and roll the new code on it, and then move on to the next one. And those are early days; I started in the industry in about '95. Those early days, I just felt bulletproof because everybody needed somebody with my skills. And after that layoff in 2000, it was a lot different. The market just dried up, I went 10 months unemployed. I ended up taking a job where I took a really big pay cut in a role that wasn't really good for me, career-wise. And I guess it's been a little bit of a comfort to me, looking back. If I get laid off now, I know it's not going to be as bad as that was. But I think that's important, and one of the things that's helped me a lot and I'm assuming it's helped you, too, is building up a network, meeting people, making friends. I sort of hate the word networking because it has really negative connotations to it to me. The salespeople slapping each other on the back at the bar and exchanging business cards is the image that comes to my mind when I think of networking. But I don't think it has to be like that. I think that you can make genuine friendships with people in the industry that share the interests and passions that you have.Corey: That's part of it. People, I think, also have the wrong idea about passion and how that interplays with career. “Do a thing that you love, and the money will follow,” is terrific advice in the United States to make about $30,000 a year. I assure you, when I started this place, I was not deeply passionate about AWS billing. I developed a passion for it as I rapidly had to become an expert in this thing.I knew there was an expensive business problem there that leveraged the skill set that I already had and I could apply it to something that was valuable to more than just engineers because let's face it, engineers are generally terrible customers for a variety of reasons. And by doing that and becoming the expert in that space, I developed a passion for it. I think it was Scott Galloway who in one of his talks said he had a friend who was a tax attorney. And do you think that he started off passionate about tax law? Of course not.He was interested in making a giant pile of money. Like, his preferred seat when he flies is ‘private.' So, he's obviously very passionate about it now, but he found something that he could enjoy that would pay a bunch of money because it was an in-demand, expensive skill. I often wonder if instead of messing around and computers, my passion had been oil painting, for example. Would I have had anything approaching to the standard of living I have now?The answer is, “Of course not.” It would have been a very different story. And that says many deeply troubling things about our society across the board. I don't know how to fix any of them. I'm one of those people that rather than sitting here talking how the world should be; I deal with the world as I encounter it.And at times, that doesn't feel great, but it is the way that I've learned to cope, I guess, with the existential angst. I'm envious in some ways of the folks who sit here saying, “No, we demand a better world.” I wish I shared their optimism or ability to envision it being different than it is, but I just don't have it.Rich: Yeah, I mean, there are oil painters who make a whole lot of money, but it's not many of them, right?Corey: Yeah, but you shouldn't have to be dead first.Rich: [laugh]. I used to… know a painter who Jim Carrey bought one of his big canvases for quite a lot of money. So, they're not all dead. But again, your point is very valid. We are in this bubble in the tech industry where people do make on average, I think, a lot more money than people do in many other kinds of jobs.And I recently started thinking about possibly going into ADHD coaching. So, I have an ADHD coach myself; she has made a very big difference in my life so far. And I actually have started taking classes to prepare for possibly getting certified in that. And I'm not sure that I'm going to do it. I may stay in tech.I may do some of both. It doesn't have to be either-or. But it's been really liberating to just have this vision of myself working outside of tech. That's something that I didn't consider was even possible for quite a long time.Corey: I have to confess I've never had an ADHD coach. I was diagnosed when I was five years old and back then—my mother had it as well, and the way that it was dealt with in the '50s and '60s when she was growing up was, she had a teacher once physically tie her to a chair. Which—Rich: Oh, my gosh.Corey: —is generally frowned upon these days. And coaching was never a thing. They decided, “Oh, we're going to medicate you to the gills,” in my case. And that was great. I was basically a zombie for a lot of my childhood.When I was 17, I took myself off of it and figured I'd white-knuckle it for the next 10 years or so. Again, everyone's experience is different, but for me, didn't work, and it led to some really interesting tumultuous times in my '20s. I've never explored coaching just because it feels like so much of what I do is the weirdest aspects of different areas of ADHD. I also have constraints upon me that most folks with ADHD wouldn't have. And conversely, I have a tremendous latitude in other areas.For example, I keep dropping things periodically from time to time; I have an assistant. Turns out that most people, they bring in an assistant to help them with stuff will find themselves fired because you're not supposed to share inside company data with someone who is not an employee of that company. But when you own the company, as I do, it's well, okay, I'm not supposed to share confidential client data or give access to it to someone who's not an employee here. “Da da da da da. Welcome aboard. Your first day is Monday.”And now I've solved that problem in a way that is not open to most people. That is a tremendous benefit and I'm constantly aware of how much privilege is just baked into that. It's a hard thing for me to reconcile, so I've never explored the coaching angle. I also, on some level—and this is an area that I understand is controversial and I in no way, shape or form, mean any—want anyone to take anything negative away from this. There are a number of people I know where ADHD is a cornerstone of their identity, where that is the thing that they are.That is the adjective that gets hung on them the most—by choice, in many cases—and I'm always leery about going down that path because I'm super strange ever on a whole bunch of different angles, and even, “Oh, well he has ADHD. Does that explain it?” No, not really. I'm still really, really strange. But I never wanted to go down that path of it being, “Oh, Corey. The guy with ADHD.”And again, part of this is growing up with that diagnosis. I was always the odd kid, but I didn't want to be quote-unquote, “The freak” that always had to go to the nurse's office to wind up getting the second pill later in the day. I swear people must have thought I had irritable bowel syndrome or something. It was never, “Time to go to the nurse, Corey.” It was one of those [unintelligible 00:27:12]. “Wow, 11:30. Wow, he is so regular. He must have all the fiber in his diet.” Yeah, pretty much.Rich: I think that from reading that Twitter thread of yours, it sounds like you've done a great job at mitigating some of the downsides of ADHD. And I think it's really important when we talk about this that we acknowledge that everybody's experience is different. So, your experience with ADHD is likely different than mine. But there are some things that a lot of us have in common, and you mentioned some of them, that the idea of creating that Jira ticket and never following through, you put yourself in a situation where you have people around you and structures, external structures, that compensate for the things that you might have trouble with. And that's kind of how I'm looking at it right now.My question is, what can I do to be the most successful Rich Burroughs that I can be? And for me right now, having that coach really helps a lot because being diagnosed as an adult, there's a lot of self-image problems that can come from ADHD. You know that you failed at a lot of things over time; people have often pointed that out to you. I was the kid in high school who the counselors or my teachers were always telling me I needed to apply myself.Corey: “If you just tried harder and suck a little less, then you'll be much better off.” Yeah, “Just to apply yourself. You have so much potential, Rich.” Does any of that ring a bell?Rich: Yeah, for sure. And, you know, something my coach said to me not too long ago, I was talking about something and I said to her, I can't do X. Like, I'm just not—it's not possible. And her response was, “Well, what if you could?” And I think that's been one of the big benefits to me is she helps me think outside of my preconceptions of what I can do.And then the other part of it, that I'm personally finding really valuable, is having the goal setting and some level of accountability. She helps with those things as well. So, I'm finding it really useful. I'm sure it's not for everybody. And like we said, everybody's experience with ADHD isn't the same, but one of the things that I've had happened since I started talking about getting diagnosed, and what I've learned since then, is I've had a bunch of people come to me.And it's usually on Twitter; it's usually in DMs; you know, they don't want to talk about it publicly themselves, but they'll tell me that they saw my tweets and they went out and got diagnosed or their kid got diagnosed. And when I think about the difference that could make in someone's life, if you're a kid and you actually get diagnosed and hopefully get better treatment than it sounds like you did, it could make a really big positive impact in someone's life and that's the reason that I'm considering putting doing it myself is because I found that so rewarding. Some of these messages I get I'm almost in tears when I read them.Corey: Yeah. The reason I started talking about it more is that I was hoping that I could serve as something of, if not a beacon of inspiration, at least a cautionary tale of what not to do. But you never know if you ever get there or not. People come up and say that things you've said or posted have changed the trajectory of how they view their careers and you've had a positive impact on their life. And, I mean, you want to talk about weird Gremlins in our own minds?I always view that as just the nice things people say because they feel like they should. And that is ridiculous, but that's the voice in my head that's like, “You aren't shit, Corey, you aren't shit,” that's constantly whispering in my ear. And it's, I don't know if you can ever outrun those demons.Rich: I don't think I can outrun them. I don't think that the self-image issues I have are ever going to just go away. But one thing I would say is that since I've been diagnosed, I feel like I'm able to be at least somewhat kinder to myself than I was before because I understand how my brain works a little bit better. I already knew about the things that I wasn't good at. Like, I knew I wasn't a good project manager; I knew that already.What I didn't understand is some of the reasons why. I'm not saying that it's all because of ADHD, but it's definitely a factor. And just knowing that there's some reason for why I suck, sometimes is helpful. It lets me let myself off the hook, I guess, a little bit.Corey: Yeah, I don't have any answers here. I really don't. I hope that it becomes more clear in the fullness of time. I want to thank you for taking so much time to speak with me about all these things. If people want to learn more, where can they find you?Rich: I'm @richburroughs on Twitter, and also on Polywork, which I've been playing around with and enjoying quite a bit.Corey: I need to look into that more. I have an account but I haven't done anything with it, yet.Rich: It's a lot of fun and I think that, speaking of ADHD, one of the things that occurred to me is that I'm very bad at remembering the things that I accomplish.Corey: Oh, my stars, yes. People ask me what I do for a living and I just stammer like a fool.Rich: Yeah. And it's literally this map of, like, all the content I've been making. And so I'm able to look at that and, I think, appreciate what I've done and maybe pat myself on the back a little bit.Corey: Which is important. Thank you so much again, for your time, Rich. I really appreciate it.Rich: Thanks for having me on, Corey. This was really fun.Corey: Rich Burroughs, Senior Developer Advocate at Loft Labs. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with a comment telling me what the demon on your shoulder whispers into your ear and that you can drive them off by using their true name, which is Kubernetes.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Consumer anthropologists, Rich Kizer and Georganne Bender, discuss generational diversity and the retail experience with Clint O'Rear. KEY TAKEAWAYS As a supplier or retailer, it is important to understand the changing needs of your consumer base. One of the biggest demographic trends in America is the aging of the population, and many retailers and suppliers fail to think about what changes are necessary to adapt to the needs of these aging consumers. Georganne - “You have to adapt to what each generation needs, when they need it - not when you think you're ready to do it.” Rich - “You have to be a mind reader - by watching customer interaction in the stores, and by using the store as a live entity/organism that interacts with you.”  Don't wait 10+ years to check the lumen density of lights Watch how fixtures are set that might create shadows on layouts If you are in a business that interacts with customers in any way, you are in the retail business, but you may not think of yourself as a retailer. (Example: funeral home operators) There's never been a better time to study, learn, create, and impact retailing than in the current COVID environment. It will change the way we look at everything in retail.  Retailers should give their team members in the stores both responsibility AND authority to present the store to the customer in the best way.   SUGGESTED ACTIONS For Retailers: When you are merchandising a section that aging consumers might shop, think about how limitations such as arthritis, vision impairment, and limitations to lifting heavier items can impact shoppability. Use a store layout and shopping aids, like shopping carts and baskets, that will be easy for aging consumers to navigate and use. Check store lighting to see if it is adequate for aging consumers - it takes 3x's the amount of light to see as well in your mid 60's as it takes in your mid 20's. Make your store environment safe for aging consumers - if they feel safer in your store they will subconsciously want to visit your store more often without even fully knowing why. Rotate and change your floor in some way regularly so the customer isn't seeing the same thing.  50% of your store is never seen by customers because they shop on their desired path.   For Suppliers: When you are developing packaging for products that older consumers might purchase, think about layout and font for customers who have impaired vision. Help retailers with creative new products, and creative new ways to display products.   For Both Retailers and Suppliers: Use the current COVID retail environment to assess what you need to change to adapt to the new ways customers are buying and interacting with information.   To contact Rich and Georganne, you can reach them at info@kizerandbender.com. Or find them on LinkedIn at Rich Kizer and Georganne Bender. If you'd like to be a guest on the podcast, reach out to Clint O'Rear at Clint@CreativeRetailTalks.com. Learn how Clint and his team at Creative Sales Consulting connect suppliers & retailers in the creative arts industries to build stronger relationships and strategic sales growth, in order to bring joy to consumers through artistic creative and decorative products. ______________________ Music: "Carpe Diem" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

If you have been around the digital signage industry for even a little while, you'd know Rich Ventura - the very active board member and then chair of the Digital Signage Federation, and pretty much the front man for NEC Display. But now, after about 20 years with NEC, he's now at Sony - running its B2B group, which includes digital signage products. I caught up with Rich last week to talk about the job change, and where Sony sits in the signage and AV ecosystems. We get into Sony's smart displays, where Sony is at with software, and the past, present and future of its gorgeous but big-dollar micro LED displays. He even drops a hint that maybe we'll see more LED from Sony. Have a listen ...  Subscribe to this podcast: iTunes * Google Play * RSS   TRANSCRIPT So, Rich, good to chat with you. You have moved on. People know you from many, many years at NEC and now you are at Sony. What prompted the move? Rich: You know, some people say it was kind of a midlife crisis and I kind of laugh at that. As I've told everybody in the 20 years at NEC, and I love NEC, and I always will and I tell everybody at NEC family, it was an opportunity that just made a lot of sense form my career. It had to be a really, really amazing opportunity for me to move and you know, I looked at the direction Sony wants to go, I looked at the leadership within Sony, I looked at the technology, I looked at all those different things. And it was that really great opportunity.  And I think it was also that opportunity to give me the ability of driving change even further and adding to my skill set, but you know, going looking at the tech and the direction that Sony wants to go, it was just hard to say no. It was a hard decision to say yes. But it was also a hard decision to say no. So what is the gig? Rich: You know, it's basically running and leading our B2B organization. And I hate to say running and leading because it's really, to me, it's more supporting and growing and partnering within the B2B organization with all the people that we have there, to really grow our business. It's for North America.  So you look within the B2B organization, it's working with our BRAVIA professional displays. We do also have access to some of our consumer products as well, working with our CLED product, which is really just an amazing technology. It's working with our projector group, projector products, an area I've never really worked with before, our PTZ cameras space, our boom mikes. We have Edge analytics, but it's not the type of Edge analytics people are used to hearing me talk about. It's really around distance learning and the classroom. And looking at any of those types of solutions that fit within our pro AV space. Is broadcast on your portfolio as well? Rich: No, it's not. That's gonna be a different group in there. But we have kind of that touch and that's what that PTZ camera base is because there's some products that we have that can play in both the AV space but also in the broadcast space. Right. So, you know, this is a digital signage podcast, so I will tend to talk about that. I'm curious about where Sony is in the context of signage, because Sony has had a product out there in different ways for at least 15 years, and they've kind of been in and out of signage.  You know, they've had booths at the trade shows, and then they kind of disappeared. And they seem to have software, but maybe they don't. They were the first guys, as far as I know, to do system-on-chip displays. But, you know, Samsung made a lot more noise about it than them and on and on. So, where are they at? Rich: It's great. I mean, part of the reason or part of my decision criteria to come over here was I did look at the SOC play and what we're doing. And if you look at it, you know, our displays have an SOC chip on it, we're running Android. It's not a Sony operating system, It's an Android operating system. And there was a lot of attractiveness to that and I see this great opportunity within digital signage. I mean you look at how the industry has gone, you've got organizations that have their own operating system, and they're running this closed environment, so to speak, right?  And then you have organizations that are not running operations. They're just running this massively open environment where you can use these different types of computers and open an operating system. And in Sony, we kind of can go both directions. We have this Android operating system, which is fairly open. But it's designed for our displays. And one of the things I want to look at is how can we capitalize on that and you'd be amazed, or you may not be amazed, but the first week of me joining Sony, so many CMS companies called me saying, “we want to work with Sony.”  And I said great, let me understand where we're at. To me, I look at digital signage as still a very young industry. I always refer to the industry we're in today as really that fourth industrial revolution. We're focusing on IoT, in an everything's connected device world and digital signage is a massive part of it. Nobody has truly capitalized on that. And so when I came into Sony and had my conversations with leadership and everyone, they said, well, we don't focus that much on digital signage, because there's everybody's doing business in there, and I said actually, they're not. They're not doing it the right way. And I think even with what's happening with COVID, digital signage has taken on this whole different life and this whole opportunity.  And to me, this is very opportunistic for Sony, and what we can do and I'm having a lot of late night conversations with our team in Japan. I'm talking a lot with our team here. I'm talking to a lot of different software companies and looking at what has been our strategy, so it's here and where do we want to grow? And where do we our strategy being and that's part of my first 30-45 days, laying out what is our strategy. Digital signage has got a massive opportunity for us. There's a lot of upside to it. I think we need to have, I don't want to say open our eyes a little bit differently, but I think we need to look at it a little differently than what we have historically. And I think you're gonna see a lot of really exciting stuff coming from us, both in the near future and long term future around digital signage. It's a little bit challenging though, because Sony primarily, if you set aside the CLED product, which we'll talk about, but the on the LCD flat panel side, it seems to be increasingly a commodity play and the big Korean guys like LG and Samsung seem to be backing off of it a little bit because it can't compete with China panels. Rich: Totally and I think you've always known my opinion about value. If you look at what I have shared with the organization in my first week, I have really three core values when looking at our business. Everything we have to do needs to drive value. So if we're delivering a 55-inch LCD, we're delivering a PTZ camera, CLED, whatever it is, there has to be value driven to our customers.  Well, the way we drive value is really twofold. One is we drive value by being easier to engage and work with, not having complex systems. And you know, some people say, that's what you said when you were at NEC and I go well, I believe in that. I mean, I believe that as an organization, to drive value, we have to be easier to work with. We have to have systems that work very well together that go all the way down to the level of our platforms, where with Android, being able to integrate into that, being able to deploy our product, being able to purchase a product, all those things have to be easier. And that drives value.  The second aspect of it is solutions focused. And I don't mean taking a monitor mount and a cable and throwing it in a box. Solutions focus, to me, means solving pain points for our customers. We're creating an opportunity for them to impact their business. And so when we look at those three things, our focus is not to sell at the lowest price point, our focus is not to compete at a dollar for dollar. Our focus is really competing at the value, how do we drive that value to our customers? If you look at our product category, we don't have 100 SKUs. What we have though, are very focused SKUs that can work well in the corporate space, well in the education space, work well in the transportation space, the wayfinding space. Okay, so you don't really, I mean you would take the opportunity if it came along, but the high volume commodity-ish stuff like digital menu boards, that sort of thing where you're just selling large volumes of them isn't really the play. It's going to be more around situations where you need very high quality displays. Rich: You know me, I'm gonna go after every deal I can, right? I'm gonna be opportunistic, but I also need to maintain and make sure that we're doing it profitably. What I don't want to do is, I don't want to give up quality, I don't want to give up support. I don't want to give all those things that we're known for just so that we can sell, you know, 10,000 displays.  It's interesting when I've asked our employees, why do people buy Sony? And the answer has been almost identical across the line. It's been around our quality, it's been around our technology, it's been around our reliability, those things that I value very heavily. And so how do we do that? Grow the business, maintain profitability, and really deliver on the value. It's a difficult task, right? And especially as we see more and more of the commoditization happening out there, and, and that's where I'm really challenging the team. And that's where I'm even challenging our partners, from our technology partners and even our channel partners. How do we do that? And where can we become opportunistic to go after the right business and deliver the right solutions and value to our partners? And right now, is that partners as you describe them, is that a reseller channel partner ecosystem that you primarily sell through? Rich: Yeah, we are a channel organization. We have very strong relationships with our distribution partners. Our regional integrators are national integrators. We have really strong relationships with them. And I want to find ways to expand that relationship with them and how can we help them grow their business and really take on more of that solution. Not meaning any meaning Sony taking on that solution, but how do we help them take on that ability of growing their capabilities and growing their value add. At the same time though, I'm going to be very opportunistic and see what are the ways that we can help them with differentiation from Sony as well. Sure. So in the ecosystem, where do you think right now or historically, these channel partners have been kind of jammed up to like, where do they need the help? Rich: It'd be easy for me to say well, they need XYZ, but I think they're all different. Every one of these channel partners, really out of necessity and opportunity have really differentiated themselves. Some have the most amazing content creation organizations. Some of them have amazing installation capabilities and service. That's really where integrators have always cut their teeth, it's been around integration services. Some of them have just amazing levels of partnerships. So it's really looking at every level with them, where can we help them?  And I'll use a really easy example, there's a partner that I had a call with in my first week as one of our channel partners, and they cut their teeth and broadcast an audio, that's where they've always focused their attention. And digital signage is a new realm for them. And so as we were talking through and I asked him, you know, who do you partner with, who have you talked to and stuff like that? We started talking about organizations that are out there, from a software perspective. And the knowledge base that we have is very valuable to them. And so the fact that we can help steer them and look at who are the right types of companies to work with, or as you verticalized, who are the right players in different vertical markets, that becomes very valuable.  So now how do I use that to our advantage? And that's the million dollar question. And I think as I work with the sales organization and our marketing organization, looking at who we have worked with, and where we've seen those values and create, to me really a tear of manufacturer partners, like you know, it's our friends, it's our family, and it's our blood. Friends are those that we know each other, we work well together, right? Family is where we start getting that stickiness where we have some integrations together or we have ease, you know, I go back to the ease of use and the value. Blood is really where solutions come in and where our products are integrated with one another.  And that's new for Sony and I think as we grow the business, it’s not going to be today, it's not gonna be tomorrow, it's going to happen over a period of time. That's where we start driving and helping that value with that integration channel. What do you think of the whole work-from-home thing and the realization amongst a lot of companies that, “Hey, maybe we don't need this big office tower or five floors and an office tower. We can have one floor and everybody else just works from home”. What that's going to mean for things like workplace communications and this idea that this was one of the next big frontiers for signage in particular that you can sell them all this stuff, because of the need to communicate in white collar environments? Rich: So the selfish, opportunistic salesperson in me hates it, because it reduces my opportunity to sell. I love having a million tons of the top offices out there because I can sell a lot of products. The realist in me sees this as an opportunity to differentiate and drive value, whether it's, you know, I go back to the Android player and the fact that we have simple solution for signage, and being able to get that to a company so that they can do simple, whether it's information to their employees about COVID, and information about status and information about things going on in their business.  I think it's also going to be opportunistic and challenging for us as manufacturers to look at. What are other ways that we communicate, right? Is it putting higher brightness displays in windows so that people can be communicated to? Is there going to be this growth within the out of home community? And are they going to have a different type of need with direct view LEDs? It's all those things. One of the things I also see is, it's a challenging opportunity from a technology perspective.  I go back to this being that industrial revolution around IoT. How do we deliver our tech that doesn't require somebody to physically touch the monitor? How do we derive solutions that allow our customers to remotely monitor, manage and deploy their technology? Where they do have offices, and maybe they don't have an employee in every single location? It's all those things, I think are going to be a play for us. I've worked from home for many years. I mean, I carried a bag for NEC, right? So you look at my first 10 years at NEC, I worked from home, then I worked at an office, and now I'm back to working at home. So, I'm used to it. It's definitely creating a new dynamic for employees. The engagement has to be different. We have to engage with our employees a lot different, we have to make sure that they feel engaged. I've seen some of these digital signage software companies like Signagelive, for example, building out platforms that allow them to engage at the employee level to their laptops. I think when we're looking at what's going on today, I think it's gonna really drive creativity and innovation. And it's gonna be really interesting, it’s gonna be fun to see how companies do innovate and drive engagement now. So when I go to trade shows, when those things still happened, I would walk through, let's say the last one was ISC, I walked through the big Sony booth and I would see a lot of information about a product, I think, it was called TEOS, which seemed to be primarily office based, digital room signs, that sort of thing, but I got a sense that there was a digital signage component to it, but you also have some sort of a signage-CMS product that maybe comes out of India or I'm not quite sure where from really, what are those things? Rich: I'm still learning. (Laughter) TEOS is really an interesting platform. I'm learning a lot about it. I got to spend some time last week with our team in Europe to understand it. To me, TEOS is like this office management, automation, communication platform. And it's a platform, it's not a piece of software. And I know that it’s critical to understand that it's a platform, and it's allowing us to look at, you know, room management and schedule management and there's a digital signage element to it, but it's not like if I were to rank like the top 10 features to it and functionalities, it's not in that top five, because there's a lot of other things behind it.  It's a module.  Rich: It is. It's not a standalone “I'm going to deploy this for my digital signage and that's all I'm gonna do”, that's not what it's for. And so I'm really learning a lot about it. There's some really cool capabilities with it. But it's not something I would go and deploy in a retailer, for example. This is more for an office workspace environment. And you know, I'm definitely learning a lot about it. I think there's some really cool capabilities in it. And you know, knowing my background when I'm working with software teams, I of course, start asking a million questions and blow their minds a little bit, but I think there's some really cool things about it. The digital signage element you're talking about is something else that I haven't had a chance to go learn and spend my time on yet, but from what I see it, it's very simplistic. It's something that you can do within our environment.  What I will say is, there's a necessity for it. As we all talk about, you know, that early SMB, that single screen environment that you don't make your money on. But do I think it's the silver bullet? I think you know me well enough to know that I've never considered any digital signage software package to be a silver bullet, you know, one package can’t do  everything for everyone. So, I'm gonna reserve judgment till I've gotten to really see it and play with it, right? But it's exciting to see that people are thinking about ways that we can deliver value. Everything goes back to my conversation around value. Yeah, whenever you have your own CMS, it becomes this delicate little dance of what is it for, does it compete with your software partners and all that sort of thing. I don't think any of the software partners who started calling you would be too worried about a totally entry level onesie-twosie kind of thing.  But I've chatted quite a bit with Samsung and Magicinfo through the years and they're now at a point where they have a full-time Product Manager and they're taking it very seriously, but you know, that starts to get really foreign in terms of the partner ecosystem that they have on the software side. Rich: Yeah, I look at it as an opportunity. Hire as many product managers as you can, please. I look at it as an opportunity where we can partner with companies. I think you've known me long enough, and those in the industry have known me long enough, I take partnerships very seriously. And they're a path to growth. And if I can have thousands of people out there pushing and talking about the Sony brand, that's very valuable to me.  I've had a lot of people go to me and say, “You were at NEC all those years and you guys are one of the top dogs, why go to Sony?” And I say because Sony's a top dog too, you just don't realize it yet. And I think we've been quiet. I think everybody knows me well enough to know I'm not shy. I bleed my brand. I bleed my company. I told everybody on the team on day one, I've got your back. And my job here is to help us grow and really put us in that position that we're going to be the top dog and I look at those opportunities with the products we have today, the partnerships and you know, the one product we haven't talked about yet is CLED, I mean, I'm blown away by what that product can do. It is an absolutely beautiful technology. I know you and I have talked about it. When we first saw it, you first saw it, we talked about it in interviews, and you've asked me what's my opinion of the CLED product, I said it's pretty amazing looking. I don't know anything about it yet, but it's pretty cool looking. The one thing I would ask about CLED and if people listening don't know what it is, it's Sony's micro LED product which has been around about four or five years. Now yes, it looks amazing. I've stood really close to it and tried to figure out what was going on. And over the years I've learned more about what micro LED is. The one thing that I wondered about is that it seems to be the same product that it was three, four years ago when it first came out and in LED, everything's evolving so quickly. I wonder where is it now? Is it on Gen 3, and I just don't understand that. Rich: Well, why fix anything if you made perfection day one? (Laughter) I'm just kidding. I think we are evolving, right? I think where CLED is today and where we want to take it, you're going to see we will evolve it, right? One of the things I really dive deeply into and it's been an interesting experience, I think, for my business team, is really understanding all of our products whether it’s CLED, it’s BRAVIA to PTZ, you can have a list of it and having these calls with the product management team here, but also our team in Japan, and that's challenging. I’m like okay, what are we going to do? How do we grow this business? How are we positioning ourselves against the competition in the industry?  You know, going back to my three things earlier about value, simplicity and solutions, what are we doing? And I think you're going to see a lot of really cool stuff. I can't go into depth about it at all, but I can tell you, there's a lot of cool stuff that we're working on and looking at. That being said, we've got some really, really amazing projects that are deploying the CLED product and the clarity of the product, the uniformity of the product, the technology behind it, is exactly what they need for those applications. And It's not a utilitarian product at all. No. I mean, I've seen it in the wild Now a couple of times. And just like in the trade shows being really impressed the one thing that worried me a little bit was the glossy finish that it has on it, seems to pick up reflection. Rich:  No, it does. And that's, like I said the applications are very explicit for how it's being used. You know, I've seen some I've seen pictures of some of the deployments that we've done. And I go, “Aha, that makes sense to me.” That makes sense on where it goes and why it goes in this application. It's really a technology you need to really dive in to understand. It's not like a traditional LED at all. And I'm still learning it. I mean, I've had nine meetings just specifically around CLED, and I still have a million questions everytime I get on the phone. So I'm excited about what it can do and how we can position it better in the market or how we currently position it, but how we continue to position it in the market. Yeah, I think it'll be important for people to understand the price points and how the technology is evolving. Because when that thing first came out, making a micro led of that scale would have been enormously expensive, just because the manufacturing technology wasn't there. But, you know, micro LED is, I want to say it's becoming commonplace, but it's pretty widely adopted now. So, I would assume that you can do a hell of a lot more and you'll make it more relatable price wise to more potential buyers. Yeah. Rich: Yeah and that happens, you know, we always talk about technology at that tech curve, right? So you're the early adopters all the way through to the late adopters, and technology follows that curve, right? So even if you’re the early adopters, you don't have a lot of volume, you don't have the technology to drive things. Because it's new. It's a new idea. And it takes a while to happen. But I think that's where I challenge our team. When I tell them I say our team, I am talking about everybody: our sales organization, our marketing organization, our development team, is how do we drive forward where that product, that platform is the right product, right platform for the marketplace and where it needs to go, but also fits the right applications and use cases. So like I said, I think you'll see a lot of opportunity coming out of us with the CLED product. It's interesting that even today, you still have any number of people referring to any big outdoor LED board as a Jumbotron, which was a Sony product that came and went. But really the only Sony direct-view LED product I know of is the CLED. Are there any plans to expand? Or is that just such a crowded market and you'll stay with this premium product, and that'll be it? Rich: All I can say is keep your eyes and ears open. Yeah. Well that makes sense. I mean, you know, wherever it's going, it's hard not to have a range of products to suit different needs particularly in the business market.  One other thing I'm curious about is, is it an advantage to you or does it feel more comfortable in the fact that you spent 20 years working for a Japanese company already, so you understand the business culture? Because I would imagine somebody who's spent all their time working just, with North American manufacturers or whatever going and starting to work with a Japanese business culture might be quite a shift for them. Rich: So, it's an advantage and a disadvantage. It's an advantage because I've gotten to really learn so much, especially as I say, in the last three or four years of my career in NEC. I really spent a lot of time with our Japanese tema and I got to learn how they work and how we as an organization can work better with them and communicate better.  I think I always have to remind everybody that English is not their first language, right? And so as we share information with our team in Japan, they may be speaking to us in English, but they're also computing this in their heads in Japanese to make sure they understand. So it's very critical that we communicate and we're very open and transparent with one another. That was the first thing.  The second thing is that I also can understand where their needs are, and you know, they're not asking questions to be difficult, they're not doing things that way. They truly want to understand, they truly want to be there with us and support us and so I've got that, and that's been an awesome experience that I've had coming into this.  Where it's not an advantage is I've got 20 years experience working with NEC and how they operate. Now I have a new organization. So I have a new vocabulary, I have a new chain of command, I have all those new things to learn, which is actually exciting. As I have told a lot of people, everybody's been going, “How's it going so far? Your week three!” and I go, yeah, just as excited as I was in week one. And they laugh go, well it’s only been two weeks, and I go, yeah, but you don't understand, I'm excited and I think even my people are seeing that as I talk with them and even with the Japanese, it's exciting. It's such an exciting opportunity and I hope that I can transfer that excitement within the organization. So I see a lot of value in my history of working with the Japanese and going to work with Japanese organizations because I do have a history and I do have an understanding of how we work best with one another. Well, this has been great. It's great in a couple standpoints first, just catching up. But second, I've struggled to find the right person on the business side to talk to at Sony for many, many years. And now I have someone!  Rich: (Laughter) Well, it's funny, Dave. I was talking with Allison in our marketing, social media Group, and I was actually talking with some of our product managers and business managers yesterday. And one of the things that I told him is that we need to be more present. We need to be more out there in the industry, whether it's just social media, whether it's speaking, training, it's education. And those who know me well know that is something I really value heavily, right? And if not me, I don't need to be the person doing it. And I really want to empower our organization to be more present in the industry. Because I look at it from a couple ways, one is it builds value. The second is it builds those bridges between our organizations, but also it shows just how much we can do and all that drives sales and all that drives relationships and everything else.  So, I'm excited because it kind of feels they have a little bit of a blank canvas to work with. But you know, if we sit down a year from now, and we talk about all the things that we did in this first year and, you know, let's do that, let's talk in a year from now, let's talk about how much Sony's changed. And I think the statement you just made, I hope I never hear that again, because I think you guys will see us more present in the industry. You'll see us more present in the technology. You're gonna see us out there more. And I'm really excited about seeing that happen. All right, Rich, thanks for your time. Rich: As always, thank you for inviting me and I look forward to continuing to have these conversations with everybody. Probably virtually. (Laughter) Rich: I do look forward to the day that I can actually travel and see some of our customers and partners and face to face again. Yeah, me too.

This Black Boss is a leading business consultant, former NFL player, speaker, entrepreneur and founder of High Stakes Training. He's been featured in Forbes, CNN, Huffington Post, ABC. 3 Black Boss Values There's a difference between WEALTH and being RICH If you don't progress, you die The real form of wealth is efficiency  Sponsors Black Boss Club Black Boss Shop Shownotes **Click the timestamp to jump directly to that point in the episode. [2:50] Bret Lockett's top belief system that pushed him into the NFL Mentality started at a young age - He built the confidence Never settled for anything other than his best He was bullied and used that as fuel to push him to prove everyone wrong [7:39] How Bret made his decision to retire from the NFL Several injuries throughout his 4 years Didn't have film, had to go to rookie tryouts as a veteran… still didn't get picked up Played for the UFL to get film, never got paid  Met influential people, realized he was intelligent enough to do something else [14:51] Black Boss Valuable Minute  Kevin shares how you can become a member of the Black Boss Club AND also how you can save 10% off your first purchase at the Black Boss Store. [17:51] Invested in himself in other ways - but what next? Bret had to find his WHY after football, tried to make investments for money but what was the WHY Unleash the Power Within - Tony Robbins, opened him up to personal development [23:01] Diving deeper into self Bret stopped watching football, stopped talking to NFL friends because of the hurt Had to work through inner problems, resolve demons  Realized he wasn't as successful in the NFL because he was focused on “living that life” [27:44] Cheated most of his life through high school Had to put a lot of time and effort in college, because he didn't learn the fundamentals in high school  Relearning [30:21] The difference between wealth and being rich Wealth = assets that make you money while you sleep You can live off of your assets  Rich = You just have cash, cash in the back Can't live the rest of your life off of that income [33:55] What made you choose the entrepreneur route over corporate America? Bret did actually start as an employee working for New York Life Insurance Asked himself - am I capable of working with companies better than my current company? The answer was yes. [37:04] Bret's key to conquering fear  Most people operate in fear but if you operate in love, abundance and success you can achieve it Have to have courage [39:20] Bret's key to conquering the mind The brain is meant to keep you safe, keep you the same - you have to conquer the mind [42:44] Goals shape your experience You have to have a goal, that's what motivates you If you don't progress, you die [45:00] What advice would you give to an entrepreneur who isn't getting the results? Identify - what is your expertise? What are you good at? What are your talents? If you can identify your talents, you can identify what industry you belong in Do your research [52:17] If you've come across a hurdle, how do you overcome it? If you're doing the same thing over and over, and not achieving results - you're gonna go crazy Need to identify your story, identify what is not working Use your networks in that space and ask for advice [59:42] What most successful people do with their finances? The real form of wealth is efficiency  Real wealthy people operate on conveniency, efficiency and simplicity  Small shift in mentality Develop a skill that is going to make you money for the rest of your life [1:12:06] Only way to learn is through repetition Take action Have to be able to change your state, and do it with confidence Build momentum, do the same thing consistently Resources Udemy - https://www.udemy.com/ Connect with Bret Lockett Instagram - bret_lockett Twitter - bretlockett26 Website - bretlockett.com  

James: Hi, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth at Real Estate Investing podcasts. Last week, we had Jake and Gino from Wheelbarrow Profits. You know, Jake and Gino have tons and tons of deals on their own and you know, recently have moved into syndication space as well. And their story is just very interesting in terms of knowing how did they get started, how did they refinance their first deal to launch their multifamily investing career.   Today I have Rich Fishman from Dallas, and Rich has almost 8,000 units right now across 23 complexes and he has been buying in Texas, Tennessee, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Mississippi, and South Carolina. So Rich is going to be giving us a lot of valuable insights into how he had bought so many apartment units. And imagine half of that 8,000 units is fundamentally owned by Rich itself and the other half of it is more of a partnership and syndication. Hey Rich, welcome to the show.   Rich: Well, thank you, James. Glad to be here.   James: Good, good. So, Rich, it's going to be a very interesting podcast because, and I'm going to be learning so much from you and I'm sure my listeners is going to be learning so much from you. How did you get started? I mean, you have like 8,000 units right now. You started almost 20 years ago. So walk back, how did you get started in multifamily immediately when you get started in real estate?   Rich: Well, actually, I was the owner of a mortgage company in the San Francisco Bay area in Berkeley, California and I financed mostly half homes, but I also financed apartment complexes. And I had a deal to finance, it was a six-plex in Alameda, California, and it was a foreclosure. Back then, there were a lot of foreclosures and the realtor gave me the deal, I got the loan, and then the buyer fell out of escrow; they didn't like the deal. And then there was another buyer; same thing happens. And I said to the realtor, I said, “What's wrong with this deal? It looks like it makes money.”  And she says “Nothing's wrong with the deal.”  And I said, “Well, I don't know how to manage anything like this.”  She says, “Well, I know management company, don't worry about it.” So I went to the property, then I dragged my wife there.   And it's a funny story because my wife is from Scandinavia and they don't do very well there. And so we went to the property and we had one of those, you know those long screwdrivers that the termite guys have because we are poking around, seeing if it was well-built. And the screwdriver went right through the wood into the drywall. And my wife says, "No, I can't buy this with you.”  I said, "No, we're buying this.”  And she looked at me and she said, “Okay.”  And so we bought this six-plex. And the six-plex was the beginning of us starting to buy real estate in earnest. So that's the story is we cut aside. There was a sidebar from the mortgage business.   James: Got it, got it, yeah. I always wonder, like whenever I meet brokers, mortgage brokers, and even brokers, I always ask them, why not you guys buy these deals, right? Why are you just doing transaction? And a lot of times, I mean not a lot of times I think once I talk to someone who went from a mortgage broker to become an investor. I'm sure you know him; it's like Michael Becker, right? Yeah. I think he's a big buyer in Dallas. I asked him this question because he used to be working in Wells Fargo and he told me not everybody likes to take risks like a business owner.   Rich: It's not only about the risk. The main reason that people get into the investment side is because, when you're doing transactions as a broker, you're making income and you're only as good as your last deal. You have to keep churning and closing deals to make a living, and every broker is off to the next listing, or the mortgage person is off the next loan and you'd live and die by the transaction. So eventually, most people either say, I've got to own this stuff; build wealth rather than income. Or I'm not interested; I really don't want to own anything. It takes the risk and the responsibility of owning property. So that's the thing, I had to make a decision to own it, take care of it, use my free time because I was still a mortgage broker. I had to use my weekends to run the real estate with my wife. We want to get started because we couldn't just go into multifamily; we needed the income from the mortgages. So it takes a lot of sacrifice for the first couple of years to get into something like this.   James: Got it, got it. So you must know the industry; working as well in the mortgage and to really successfully become owner and take advantage of that knowledge as well. So after how many years or after how many unit count that you, you said, okay, I'm going to give up this mortgage business, I'm going to be just a fulltime, a real estate investor?   Rich: I think we hit about a thousand apartments. And at that point, I let go of my duties in the mortgage company and concentrated on just buying and selling apartments.   James: Got it, got it. So, 20 years ago you started buying the six-plex, when did you see your fastest acceleration of purchase or acquisitions?   Rich: Well, we hit about 4,000 units and then the recession came 2009 to 14, 12, 13 as on the area of the country, and that was really hard. So we didn't really grow during that period. We were selling off as fast as we were buying, just kind of trying to keep our head above water. We got to about 5,000 units, about two or three years ago, and then we've grown a lot more. I could probably have 50,000 apartments today if I wanted them. I would have to basically align myself with someone on Wall Street or some investment banking for like a Goldman Sachs or something like that. And they would be happy to raise the money and give me all that money and I could then own five or 10% or 15% or whatever it is that is bought, BUT I'm not that going to ho for that strategy.   So the growth at this point is really about organic growth for me and our company, and also quality of life because when you have institutional mining, you have to take care of it in a way that suits the institutions. And they have requirements that family and friends and other people don't have. For example, they might want audited books every year. That doesn't sound like a lot because we don't; we have books [inaudible 08:46] and everything, but that just takes a lot of time to get an audit done. And if you multiply that by 15 or 20 EO, now you have to have a whole audit department, and CPAs work who for you and things like that. So it's been really about opportunity and raising money mostly from either my own, resources or family and friends and other methods.   James: Got it, got it. So, Rich, I think you bring a really good perspective in terms of economic cycle because you have went through, I mean, you started 20 years ago, you went through that 2008 and everybody said 2008 multi-family, you know, fat better than any other asset classes, they are very, very low. What you call, you know, who went into a receivership or bankruptcy; multifamily, so is that true?   Rich: That's not true at all. Most of the people who are in multifamily today, we're not even involved in the business.   James: Exactly, that's what I'm asking because everyone is sort of newbies--   Rich: A lot of people were wiped out in that recession and a lot of other people were underwater. I mean, there were thousands of apartment complexes that were foreclosed on. Now was it as bad as office buildings or retail? Maybe not, I really don't know, but it was bad. Now they say anybody who lasted eight years, they could come out the other side feeling good. But most people don't have the capital to take five or six or seven years of losses, and large losses. If you're not making debt coverage, if you're not able to pay your loan and you're coming out of pocket, that might be okay for one deal. But if you have 20 deals like that, yeah, that's a whole different story. So it's quite a different thing than when people say. Now, the multifamily was hitting extremely hard, and I think the default ratio was up to about 8%.   James: 8%. Okay.   Rich: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. That doesn't sound that bad compared to student loans. But if you think about it 8% is, you know, you're talking about housing that touches the lives of millions of people.   James: Got it. Yeah. It's very interesting data because you are giving me true data. I mean, sometimes we read in the news and they say low delinquency rate and it was not a hard hit and we don't have real, true story. Right, because a lot of it depends on the sub-marker, depends on which class we are talking about, and you know, depends on the operator as well. So how did you survive the 2008 crash?   Rich: Well, I have some properties that cash barge really well and I had others that really couldn't survive and I got rid of them. I sold them off or actually, I had you cut my portfolio down in order to survive and retrench a little bit, but I only had a few deals that were like that, the rest, I didn't have the leverage. If you were totally leveraged up in a bad market, then you cannot save yourself because, and if you're a partnership, you can't save yourself either. Because, if you own 10 or 20% of the deal and the loan is negative, then you would actually have to make a capital call every month on your partners in order to make those payments, and if you raise money. You know that there are two words that should never be spoken ‘capital costs’.   James: Exactly.   Rich: And so it's hard to really get money out of people to feed something that's losing money. So, there are a lot of people who gave; I know one fellow in the Houston market, he had property all over Houston, Atlanta, I think he gave up about 40 yields back. And there were other people like that who had just a tremendous amount of deals that they gave back to the banks.   James: So was this deal when they give back did Fannie and Freddie was giving non-recourse loan at that time?   Rich: Yeah, non-recourse loans, they just won't; if you give them deals back, they don't want to lend to you again unless you pay a heavy penalty to offset their losses because they take losses, themselves or the service or takes the loss. And in Fannie Mae's case, the loan originator slash servicer usually takes about five to 10% of the risk of the loan. So, you know, that could be pretty substantial too, to them because they're usually own companies by either large wealthy individuals or by banks. They don't like taking losses at all.   James: Got it, so they--   Rich: Hopefully we won't be there again.   James: Yeah, absolutely, we didn't want to be there again. So it was non-recourse and the owners were able to just give up their property, they lose their equity and the service that takes some loss and they gave it back to Fannie Mae and that's it.   Rich: Fanny Mae never own; one of the problems with the way the system was set up, is that Fannie may never really own the loan. People don't realize this, but Fannie Mae is just a broker.   James: Really? Okay.   Rich: There's really like nobody, you know, there's not like someone in Mumbai who owns or in Shanghai who owns all these loans. I mean, they basically securitize the loans and they sell the loan as a bond in the world financial markets. And so there's a special servicer who represents the interests of the bondholders and that person is delegated decision making, but they're not able to cut deals on Fannie Mae loan. So, they don't generally go and say, we see that you're negative, and why don't we go from 5% to 3% and you can owe us the money later? Things like that; they're not flexible. So, actually, Freddie Mac is, is more flexible, they act more like a bank, and so they can do workouts in a much better way than Fannie Mae can. It's just one of the things people don't know.   James: Got it. Wow, that's interesting. That's a lot of information out there. Yeah, I mean, Fannie Mae does a, securitize the loan and they sell it to the investor who buys it as a bond and they get certain percentage out of it. And in the middle there's servicer, there's Fannie Mae, everybody makes a few percent like this one [inaudible 15:59].   Rich: Everybody is making money, and at the end, the only people who generally lose money are the bondholders.   James: Okay, are the bondholders. But if the deal is given back, I mean the equity holder, whoever, the owner also lose the money as well, right? So there are two people, the buyer, and the seller, right?   Rich: The borrower absolutely loses a whole lot of their entire investment. And then the lender, if the lender can't be made whole by the sale of the real estate, they may lose money too. Things can get pretty bad in that cycle, that the value of the property often sunk below the outstanding balance of the loan. There're a lot of negative things to talk about, but let's talk about more positive things.   James: Got it. So you talked about people who are highly leveraged, right? So let's say you're buying a deal at 75% leverage. Do you think that's high level, I mean, can you define highly leverage? What is the highest leverage that you think?   Rich: Well, in today's world, you can leverage up to, Oh, even 90% for the first and second or preferred equity. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that you don't want to leverage that high on a stabilized property. It's one thing if you buy a property that's a value add and that you're going to add value and renovate a property, increased rents, increased value, and you're looking on a stabilized basis that okay, you went high leverage, but within a year or two you're going to be catching up and the leverage point will be at 60%, 65 or 75% or something. But if you're basically highly leveraged in stabilized properties without any value add then. If the rents go down five or 10%, then you're underwater, you want to have some protection; you want to certainly have 20% or debt coverage or something like that.   James: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, that's the reason where I'm going with the question because we buy deals, we buy deals or value at deals even at 80% leverage, but in one to two years, that 80% leverage is going to be, 70 to 65% leveraged. So basically it's not leveraged at the start of the loan, it's basically, where are you going to be once you're stabilized; that's the more important thing. Sometimes people get confused that you shouldn't be highly leveraged? Why highly leverage and you don't understand that we are looking for buffer for DSCR? We want to be as further up from the debt service coverage ratio. That's the fundamental discussion about what highly leverage and costing higher risk.   Rich: Right, leverage is your friend, if you're using the leverage to invest capital, if you're using leverage to service debt or to pay out dividends, then you're making a huge mistake.   James: Okay, absolute point, that's an awesome point. That's well-said. I couldn't have said it better. So what about the guys who have done breach loans at that time in 2008 what happened to them and what would you give advice to that kind of people who are doing--   Rich: You mean the answer 2007 or 2008 with a value add deal, and then they had a bridge situation. While those people probably suffered, I mean they didn't execute. If they executed, that's fine. It was hard to push rents back then, everything is based on increase in rent. Fundamental multifamily strategy is how can I increase the rent? What value can I give the tenant so they'll pay more? Now, between 2008 and 2012, the only value add strategy that I know that worked was the fixed deferred maintenance to make sure you kept the lights on, for the most part. So beyond that, I didn't see people putting granite countertops in and all this other stuff because everyone was just trying to supply.   So those people, many of those people who got in at the cycle; at the end of the cycle, didn't make money unless they stayed all the way through 2015-16, so there were about seven years. But you would have to stay in that deal in order to make it. Now I did buy a property in the Midwest that I bought for about 15,000 units. You can get things that way back then. And I bought it in 2006 and I did do really well on it, but it was unusual because I got it so cheap; my basis lever was very high. But at the time it seemed like I had really jumped the shark as they say because the economy wasn't very good, and it wasn't easy to rent up any apartments for a while.   James: So coming back to Midwest, which I believe is MAVA secondary or tertiary market, right? So like right now in 2019 right now, market is so hard and people can't buy in the hot cities like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, people are, I mean, I'm just looking at Texas, right? I mean, we're in Florida, we have Orlando, Tampa, and what Jacksonville, and I mean a lot of people have started going to other States and tertiary market or States which is like supposedly supposed to be upcoming. So, what would you give advice to them?   Rich: Well, I think my advice on the States like South Carolina or those kinds of places, is that to study the local market and make sure that it's vibrant, that there are good jobs there. There are a lot of great secondary and tertiary markets. Huntsville, Alabama or Hoover, Alabama or you know, Greenville, Columbia, South Carolina, I mean there's just, you know, Asheville, North Carolina, there's a lot of great secondary markets. I think the biggest problem that people have in these markets, one is they think they can increase rents more than they can. Because if you go to some of these markets and you think you can get $200 for putting in a new kitchen, you might find out you can only get $35 and 20 cents because there's a limit to what a lot of these people were willing to pay in these markets.   And if you go too high, they just want [inaudible 22:56], but there are still some markets that are small that people are really surprised at. I mean if you've been to Indiana and you know, there is Columbus, Indiana, well that sounds like a real nothing place, but Commons is located there, it's a very large company, and it's a pristine town with really high rents. Bloomington is also a great town in Indiana; it's got the college there. So there's a lot of college towns and there are capitals and there are places where there's a lot of manufacturing that's particularly in the Southeast that they didn't have manufacturing before. Some of these places have become very desirable for retirement and for our businesses like Charleston, South Carolina, nothing was going on there except history about 20 years ago. If you've been they are now, they are building homes like crazy. People are moving there to retire. There's a huge tourism business, I think ranked the number one wedding venue one year recently. And then they have they're making small planes there; just tremendous amount of activity going on.   James: What happened to this kind of tertiary market? I'm sure you had similar tertiary market during 2008 where you thought, okay, this is really good to go in and invest in. Looking at some of the cities that you're looking at it right now, what happened to that kind of market in 2008 how did they do compared to the major cities that are well known for--?   Rich: I own the property, and the answer is different. Every tertiary market was different, just like every major market. For example, if you look at the major markets or the secondary major markets take Tucson. Tucson was wiped out in the recession, now people say it's a good investment. Phoenix was wiped out, Vegas was wiped out, Reno was wiped out. Today Reno; people think Reno is part of California. It's hard to buy something under 150 a door in Reno now. So back then it was 50 a thousand a door was a great retirement exit. So I own property in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and there is an army base there. Now, I will never buy another property next to an army base. I don't care what the numbers look like because the politics of the army base are things that I cannot control.   And they decided that army base that they didn't need hardly anymore. So they cut the enrollment at the army base there by about half. And it was the town that depended upon the army base almost completely, not just the army people, but the people who were feeding and the vendors, and everybody else. And so the town really; rents went down about 30-40% in the town, but then there are other locations. I owned a property in Davenport, Iowa and it got hit, but it didn't get hit that bad. And agriculture, which was a real feeder for Iowa, stayed pretty good. And you know, they had the ethanol and that was pretty good. We never got below in general 90% occupancy in the properties that we own there, so it just really depends, you've got to do your research. Just how you can't make a blanket and say tertiary market, secondary market; core markets; it wasn't long ago that people considered Baltimore to be almost a core market.   Because of its proximity to DC on the Amtrak corroder from New York, the new Harbor that they had built there with the aquarium and today, a lot of people don't think of Baltimore as a core market and back then people didn't see DC as a core market. They thought it was crime, wedding blah, blah, blah, you know, stay away from DC. And now today, I mean, you're talking about very expensive real estate all over DC.   James: Awesome, awesome. That is a lot of insights there. So Rich, which market have you been focusing on, I mean, you bought in a lot of markets before these and you probably own some of it over there, but what has your strategy has been at this hot--?   Rich: Right now my strategy is really to buy more in DFW.   James: Okay.   Rich: Our office is here. This is probably the best multifamily market in the country. The cranes are all over the skyline. The jobs are coming in like crazy every day or week there is another multinational company that's relocating from California generally to Dallas Fort worth. There's a lot of vibrancy here. Rents keep tricking up. I like DFW. I've liked Houston a lot in the past; Houston is very squatty though, and there's a lot, I can't just tell you that Houston's going to do well because every part of Houston is so different and there's no zoning, so it doesn't have a character. Neighborhoods don't have as much character that they do here. But Houston is great Austin is great, it's just the real question, isn't what do I like, the real question is, is there an upside? Where is the upside in multifamily today?   And the answer is that there isn't the kind of upside today that there was until a couple of years ago because we were still basically catching up from the recession; a lack of housing, deferred maintenance and household formation. During the people said to me, "aren't there going to be more renters?" Because people were foreclosed, I don't know if you remember that. They will say, "You're in a great business". All these foreclosures, they have to rent now. No, they didn't have to rent. They moved in with their families, they hold up; whatever they had to do. People are much more flexible and adaptable than statisticians and university professors. So people didn't create households, kids stayed in the basement, and so here we are 2012 wondering where are all the renters? Well, it turns out that they were hiding out.   So when the economy got good and they got jobs, they all came out and that created a lot of household formation, a lot more renters. And that created a boom in multifamily. So, either more and more people who need rental housing, absolutely, and particularly in areas like Dallas, Fort Worth where they're coming in for the jobs, they need housing; Austin, they need housing. That puts pressure on rents and they usually start building a lot more too. The areas that have a declining population, I wouldn't invest.   So if a deal's in a city that has a declining population, I automatically say no, I'm not interested in, even if I could fix it up and make some money, to me that's; I'm going against the tide. I'm just one guy, I can't make an ocean. I have to get in my little boat, and I have to have the-- I want the ocean to work for me and not against me. I don't want to fight that. Same or crime; if I'm in an area that has just tremendous amount of crime, it's still, crime is [inaudible31:42], but if it has a lot of crime, I don't want to own it because I can't do all the things necessary to stop crime in my neighbor. I'm not a police department. I'm just one person owning one complex or two in a neighborhood and I've got to have an ability to deliver safe housing to the people who rent from us.   James: Got it, got it. Just want to add one thing to the listeners and audience. If you want to find a city where there's declining on appreciating one free resource, which is very quick to check, it is called bestplaces.net. Bestplaces.Net, and you can go and enter the city information and you can go to a household. I believe it's a real estate statistics and it shows you whether there's a declining population or increasing population. I mean in general, I think Texas is increasing in general. Everybody's moving to Texas and I believe Florida as well, so--   Rich: I mean, if you're looking in Texas and you say, well, why don't I buy in Amarillo or Abilene or these kinds of places, I don't have anything to say. I don't know those markets, but those are not vibrant places generally.   James: It makes sense; vibrant. Okay, got it. But I think the major cities in Texas are pretty vibrant.   Rich: The major cities are really San Antonio, Austin, Houston, and Dallas. Then you have cities like El Paso, Lubbock, Tyler, you know, places like that that are in the second tier. Corpus Christi is another one that is in between the second and third-tier cities. Aon, actually in Corpus Christi real estate, and that's on a lot of people's radar because they are putting along money to the ports and the petroleum industry, but it's not as vibrant as it San Antonio or Austin.   James: Got it. Got it, got it, very interesting. So but Dallas, I mean, I know you're focusing on Dallas, but Dallas prices have appreciated from what 50,000 a door. I mean, I think all over Texas it's like this, right? For the past five years, $50,000 a door to almost a hundred thousand a dollar for a C-class property. So how are you planning to buy deals? I mean since, don't you think at some point the price per door is just going to be limited by the rent wage growth of the--?   Rich: Well, I think that it's a mistake to really focus on price per door. I think it's a better thing to focus on cap rates.   James: Cap rates, okay.   Rich: And if you could buy something over a five cap rate and put loan on it for under 4%, then you have positive arbitrage, and you're going to make money. So a lot of properties are expensive, but property in San Francisco is 350,000 a door. Now, I was a mortgage broker there when they were going for 100,000 a door, and I thought people were crazy. Who would ever pay that? So, we can't let a number and you shouldn't let a number per door impact your buying decision. What your buying decision should be based on is what return on your investment you're going to get. Now, it's true that you want to make sure there's an exit there, meaning that there's somebody else who would buy a property at more per door if that's a problem.   Now there are some markets where maybe that is an issue still, but they're generally very depressed; places like Detroit or things like that or Cleveland. But even those places are not any more per door oriented. So I've seen deals recently that are 120,130 a door. They were bought for 80 a door just three, four years ago. And before that, they had one for 55 a door. And I don't really care what people bought them for in the past, I just care what can I do? What's my return going to be? If I could hit my numbers and I don't really care. Now the question is, can I hit my numbers? Am I chasing a dream that's-- is the ship already sailed? Is there really any more room in this property to enhance value? And the answer has to be yes. And a lot of the areas in Dallas are improving. The income levels are going up in some of these places. The number of jobs in the area is going up, so they're not static environments. Today, a suburb of Dallas is not the same place as it was 20 years ago because now there are four times as many people living in the area, shopping in the area, working in the area, and those people are all competing for housing.   James: Wow, that's interesting. Okay, so how do you underwrite your deals? I mean I'm sure you're looking for upside, right? That's what you talk about in any deals and whether you can make a return on your investment, right?   Rich: I'll tell you my tricks of the trade, which is nothing unusual; first of all, we go into the numbers and make sure we understand the expenses. And we also increase the property taxes based on what we think the assessor will increase the taxes too. Yeah, that's a really big thing; people don't realize they come from out of the outside Texas that your property is assessed every year a new bag. So you can't look at a tax that your seller's paying and think that you're going to have the same tax. So we get the real expenses, and then if we're going to do a value add, we want to find a property that's very similar, same vintage and everything that's already done the value add and see what rent they're achieving, what they've done, and we're not going to go past that.   In other words, I'm not going to be a pioneer and decide that I need golden faucets or Berber carpets or whatever it is; I'm going to make a nice value-add, the same as everybody else. Maybe you are a little better, but I'm not going to a guest that I can get more rent, so that's where I get my revenue, just estimating how many of this was going to renovate? What rents can we get today, today in the marketplace, not tomorrow? And then use those numbers, and if those numbers show that I can get a great return based on what it costs and what the money we put into the property, then it's a go. If the numbers, there's nothing here, I can't get a return from doing this or the rents are tapped out, that kind of thing. Then I pass. And we use a model. I think we use the CRM model. We bought the model because it got too complicated for Excel for us. And so we use a model that we bought to program the IRR and all that stuff.   James: What about the rent growth assumption? How do you usually predict that?   Rich: We don't put more than two or 3% a year in there? We're not looking to create false expectations. 5% rent growth sounds nice, but that doesn't happen all the time. In fact studies in Houston show that there's been virtually no rent growth in two or three years in Houston. And every year they say that they had four or 5% rent growth. And I asked the realtors, is the four or 5% rent growth that these reports say? And nobody seems to know where the data's coming from.   James: Yeah, absolutely. But do you think we can get that 3% rank growth moving forward from now on the next five years? I mean, do you think it's real estate?   Rich: I think we can get the two to 3% rent growth just by doing nothing; if you're in a market that is strong.   James: So it depends on the market as well.   Rich: It all depends on one thing and one thing only, which is wage growth in the market you own.   James: Correct.   Rich: I own a lot of property in San Antonio and there was virtually no wage growth in San Antonio. And I have property that I've owned there now six years, seven years. And the last two or three years there's been virtually no increase in wage growth or rents in none of these markets. The cap rates keep going down, so people keep paying more for these properties. They expect wage growth and rent growth, so everyone has a different expectation.   James: Got it, got it. So what about the, I mean, you mentioned that I mean, you did this for 20 years, own like 8,000 units, you could have multiplied 10 X your holdings by going with private equity money which some people have done. And some people have gone to private equity and came back to be a [inaudible41:31]. Some people are trying to get into working with private equity because it's easier to rent and raising money from retail investors which is like family and friends. I know you mentioned some perspective, but can you give a full perspective on why you didn't choose that route at all?   Rich: Well, we do have family and friends, and private equity, and some family offices in our deals. I have three deals that I have is tuition in, and I just prefer the flexibility that-- I prefer working with individuals and with people I know because multifamily is not a straight line. You buy something a lot of times prizes after you close, you don't know, some problems that you run into. Sometimes you have to replace staff. A lot of times you have a staffing issue. It could take a year or two longer to execute your business plan. And still, it's very good. When you execute your business plan, you make a lot of money, but instead of taking one or two years, it could take five years or four years. And when you have institutional money, they're not very patient and they are very willing after; if you don't make your numbers for one to two years, they're very willing to take the management away or threaten you with your cramming, taking away your investment. Actually, you're cramming down; they call it crammed down; to make the return.   It can be pretty nasty, so that's one of the reasons. It's getting easier to raise money from family offices privately. There are a number of crowd-sourcing platforms; we've done some crowd-sourcing rising for a couple million dollars as infill, you know, to fill in a partnership after a family or friends invest, and we still have a couple million left. Well, we've been successful at raising that money there. We've also used preferred equity, which is kind of a hybrid deal. It's not secondary financing, like mezzanine financing, but it's similar. What they do is there is a pay, they want a pay rate of around four to 6%, and then they want a complete return of let's say nine to 11% or 12%. They'll take the difference when you sell the property well when you refinance. So, it gives you more leverage, you might say, but it's not partnership money, so it reduces the money that you have to raise as a partnership.   James: Got it, got it. And what would you give advice to people who are saying that you know, when the market turns, I mean, they will not be any more private investors anymore, I mean, you have to go back to private equity? Do you think that's the true case?   Rich: You mean institutional equity? You have to go back to-- that's all private equity. I think the reality is when the market turns, everyone goes back into their little clamshell, so what you call it and money is money. And if people don't feel that they can make a return, then they won't invest. Now, what happens is that if the market turns and people are not making return, some deals will go south and will go sour, and then you'll start a new cycle of this trust real estate. And then there'll be opportunity funds or vulture capital guys who are trying to invest in those deals and they'll be looking to invest. So every part of the cycle has a different kind of investor. Right now the profile of the average investor is looking to clip coupons. Most people know that the glory days of making two, 300% on their money is over and they're very happy with what they'd done and now they really don't want to lose their principal. There have gotten more conservative as wealthier people do, and then they say, well, can I get a seven or an 8% or 6% coupon clip every month when you send me a check? And there are a lot more of those people today. There is virtually none of those people in 2008, nine, 10, 11, 12. Yeah, but today, most people have the profile as investors of wanting to have lower risk and are willing to take less reward.   James: So what you're saying is in 2008, everybody disappeared; nobody invests retail, right? And then after that, there is some vulture capital and then now people are looking more into stabilized assets with lower risk.   Rich: The people who appeared in 2008 were the people who worked at Goldman Sachs or Blackstone or these other Carlisle group and these other large accumulators of capital. And what they saw is a tremendous amount of blood on the street as they say. They saw just a lot of financial suffering and they were looking at enabling because of their massive amounts of capital to scoop up troubled assets for pennies on the dollar. So a lot of the mortgages that went bad were sold off for 20, 30, 50% of their mortgage value to these conglomerate; these large companies. And then they went through the process of foreclosing on individual assets. Some of them actually created management companies themselves, and they got the properties back. A bunch of then they put them back on the market and made a lot of money. So there was a lot of business, a lot of wealth created in that time frame, but it wasn't created by people like you and I, it was created in Goldman Sachs, and in Blackstone, and these kinds of places.   James: Got it, got it. So where do you think we are heading in the next two or three years or five years? Are we going to have a slowdown bump or it's going to be a crash into like 2008 or there is just going to be a coupon rolling in multifamily?   Rich: I don't think that we're going to have a crash. I see it more that it's just a steady market and I just think it's going to go up and down a little bit here and there, and I don't see much change from where we are for a couple of more years. I can't see out too far into the future. Sometimes politics and things like that intercede, and we don't know if someone politically comes in and starts changing the tax code like they did in 1986 or something like that. But the way I see it is that America is fundamentally becoming a retro society. People are living a lot longer, and the longer people live the less they want to own a house. A lot of people will own houses and raise families there, but they will exit houses more and more frequently to live in places like central cities or small main street America so they can be near services and doctors and entertainment and [inaudible 49:41].   And I don't think that we're going to go back to the white picket fence for everybody's environment. Now, that doesn't mean people won't buy houses, but when people are not raising children, they will prefer generally to live in smaller environments, more like Europeans do, and I think that pertains, well, for multifamily. There are so many good trends that are feeding into the multifamily trough that I can't imagine right now that in general, multifamily would have a crash.   James: Got it, got it. And so we're coming almost to the end of the show. Can you give us one advice to people who are thinking of becoming like you owning thousands of units and they're just getting started?   Rich: Sure. So this is my main piece of advice is that if you want to be in this realm, then you must make it a full-time job. This is not an investment, multifamily is not a stock that you-- it's not putting money on Microsoft and watching it go up and down. It's an active business, and if we're going to try to be somebody who owns several apartment complexes, then you just really can't buy the complexes and hand away the keys to the management company and expect great results. You have to be very actively involved, visit your properties, know the rents in the market, walk vacant apartments, and make sure you hire good people. It really is a business, and if you're not prepared because of your lifestyle, your other job or something like that to devote most of your time to this business, then my recommendation is become a limited partner in a deal or two, try to make money that way. But don't think that you could become a principal and own five or 10,000 apartments that way, no, it's not going to happen.   James: Got it. I mean, this is one of the requests from our listeners. Is there anyone advice that you want to give to a passive investor who is investing in this deal? What they should look for [inaudible 52:14]?   Rich: Well, the big issue for passive investors is that they should really understand what they're investing in, like any other investment, and not take the offering that they get from the company or the operator at its face value because it could be too optimistic. You want to make sure you agree with the assumptions. So you would probably at the very least get on the computer and look at how much are units really renting for in that area. If they're going to renovate, well, what does a renovated unit look for? Is this an achievable rent that they're projecting and are their expenses realistic? Are they in line with what expenses really shouldn't be? So do a little homework; that's my main thing, and don't just trust that, just because somebody sent you something that said that there's a 30% return, that that's a real thing.   James: Yeah, I have many, many times some passive investors just look at the final return numbers and decide whether they want to invest or not, but they forgot that we are making thousands of assumptions in that spreadsheet. So you rather check the assumptions rather than just the final numbers.   Rich: Absolutely.   James: Right, so Rich we're really happy to have you here. How can the listeners and audience reach out to you?   Rich: Well, they could, we have a website, alcapgroup.com and they can send me an email through there. If they want to know about our upcoming deals, we'd be happy to put them on their list and work with them, talk to them, and see if we can do some business together.   James: Awesome, awesome. Thank you very much Rich for coming onto the show.   Rich: Thanks James, been a pleasure.   James: Pleasure to have you. Thank you.

Whitney Hauser : Hi. I’m Dr. Whitney Hauser. And welcome to Dry Eye Coach podcast. Today we’re going to be talking about tips for doctors just starting out in dry eye. So, if you’re looking for some new pearls about how to add dry eye in your practice, this may be the podcast for you. Today I’m joined by assistant professor at the University of Colorado Department of Ophthalmology, Dr. Rich Mangan. Welcome, Rich. Rich Mangan : Oh, thanks, Whitney. It’s great to be here. I appreciate it. Whitney : You bet. You bet. We’re kind of excited to get to know, you know, what you think are some of the greatest things that new practitioners, or practitioners that are just trying to bring dry eye into their practice might want to add in as they develop. So, I’m going to jump in with some questions for you… Rich : Okay. Whitney : … right off the bat. And, what are the benefits to doctors and their patients for getting started, or treating dry eye disease? You know, there’s benefits on both sides, so give us a little bit… Rich : Right. Whitney: … of your thoughts there. Rich : Right. You know, certainly, the benefit for me as a doctor in getting started was just to have a greater appreciation for the fact that ocular surface disease is in fact a real disease and not just a symptom. To be honest with you, years ago I used to hate dry eye. You know, I would go and see LASIK evals and cat evals and I was really enjoying that. And then I’d pull out a chart and it’d say dry eye and, you know, I’d just shrug in agony thinking about it. But then I went to a speaker training many years ago, in fact, this was around 2002 when Restasis came out, and it really, the panel did an excellent job of just really impressing upon the attendees that, you know, the quality of life scores of dry eye can really mimic, you know, even severe things like angina or disabling hip fracture. So, when I took that to heart, and I decided that it was time to come back to my practice and truly treat it like a disease. And so, I spent some time educating my key technicians, my team leader, and we actually carved out dedicated time just to really focus and concentrate on these patients. And what it did was, after they got to hear, you know, my walking the walk and talking the talk, you know, my dry eye practice really became more efficient because they knew what I was going to say before I was going to say it. And, but they truly developed appreciation for the fact that this is a disease. Whitney : Yeah. You raise a good point, you know, about the kind of parallels that are between more serious, as they would be noted, diseases and dry eye disease. I think that’s where a lot of the disconnect is. It’s not so much that the doctors don’t believe it exists. I think that most eyecare providers do. But it’s the gravity of it. So, the patient sitting across from them I think is oftentimes what’s missing. Rich : Yeah. Whitney : So, I think you probably latched onto that well in advance of a lot of our colleagues, including myself. So… Rich : Well, I’ve been around longer than you, Whitney. I’ve had a little bit of a head start in that respect. (laughs) Whitney : Unfortunately, not by as much as one would think. (laughs) You feel like this has a positive impact on new referrals as well? Bringing new patients into your practice? Rich : You know, it really does. Keep in mind, when I first started my dry eye practice I was in a co-management, a referral center, and one of the concerns we had when I brought this idea up was, how were our referring doctors going to look at this? Would they look at it like I was competing with them? And, in fact, the response was the complete opposite. They loved the fact that they had a resource in the area that really took this seriously. Patients could

How many cake decorating videos does it take to disrupt the platform economy? Would forcing constraint on platforms generate better content? How do we reconcile unlimited access to an infinite library when we’re being pummeled by bad content? Endless scrolling is the opium of the people: This week Paul Ford and Rich Ziade discuss how platforms like Spotify, Netflix, and Youtube have turned into an inescapable hellscape of unfocused content. We talk about being disappointed with the infinite media libraries of our dreams, and the potential for platforms to redeem themselves by constraining content, while looking at how smaller creators are already doing that. Paul also reveals his utopian dream of a centralized platform of curated cake-making content.   4:45 — Rich: “I go to the track, and I go View Album, because I’m wondering if I’ve stumbled on an artist that I want to really dive into… then I go to the album, and I want to like it so I’ll give the album a full listen. There’s so much shit. I get through the first [few] tracks of the album and then the waves break the glass in my house and flood, taking the table and me and the chair, and I go to the next thing.” 5:45 — Paul: “You know what I’ve noticed is the truly talented young artists just produce EP after EP, for years, and then they’re like ‘oh, I’m gonna do this album now.’ They don’t jump to the album. It’s a high risk game. 80% of it is gonna be trash unless you know what you’re doing.” 8:30 — Paul: “With the pure algorithmically defined entertainment that Netflix specializes in, there’s this thing called Dinotrux. It’s dinosaurs that are trucks because they know that little boys like trucks and dinosaurs — little girls too! Have you seen Dinotrux? It’s so bad.” 10:00 — Paul: “It must have been very exciting though at first where it’s like, ‘I’m doing a new thing, a Netflix standup special,’ and then a month goes by and it’s just not as cool for the comedians. Now you’re like, ‘I’m doing a Netflix special!’ and your housekeeper says, ‘so am I!” 12:30 — Paul: “We have a developer/designer here named Darrell and he made a playlist expiration tool. It’s called Dubolt. It’s quite good, you seed it with a few tracks and parameters and you get a very good playlist back.” 13:30 — Paul: “So we’re hitting a point in the glut where we’re realizing that emotionally and intellectually it’s not that satisfying to keep waiting and searching. You saw this when cable TV suddenly had five thousand stations and nobody could figure out what to watch.” 14:00 — Paul: “There’s always the great simplifying agent, which in our industry is often Apple, [saying], ‘you don’t want all those choices.’ Now the problem that Apple has — which is the problem everybody who creates a successful minimalist approach has — is that everybody starts adding stuff to it.” 15:00 — Paul: “We’re in the glut. There’s very little quality in a glut. There’s no sense of quality. Literally, it’s just this tsunami of content coming in and we’re all just like, ‘wow, that’s a lot of content!’ You thought it was what you wanted.” 15:25 — Paul: “We measure creativity by how people respond to constraints.” 16:50 — Rich: “When I see a Netflix Original Series, I just assume — and I could be surprised — I assume it’s bad.” 16:55 — Paul: “Compare Netflix and Youtube for a minute. What do both of them solve? They solve distribution. Suddenly they were like, ‘oh my god, we can put moving pictures in a rectangle on a screen and we can get it out to millions and millions of people.” 17:20 — Rich: “There’s a phenomenal quote by the Chief Content Officer of Netflix. They said, ‘what’s your strategy?’ and he said, ‘we have to become HBO faster than HBO can become us.’” 19:10 — Paul: “Here’s a thing I think a lot about: Cakes. Cake making is a whole scene on Youtube. There’s probably 30 million people… who watch and subscribe to cake content where people smear things with fondant. Very charming people. They sell spatulas. That’s how they monetize. I sort of look at Netflix as being very well set up to capitalize on these nascent expanding scenes in a way that Youtube can’t. You’ve got thirty, forty, fifty cake-making personalities but Youtube doesn’t really bring them together.” 20:50 — Paul: “It’s a promise that everyone is roughly equal on the platform, which is weird because you walk down the street and there’s a giant picture of a Youtube celebrity painted on the side of a wall in Manhattan.” 22:00 — Paul: “Netflix is weird because it’s all about subjects and I almost think it should be more focused around verticals. Like channels, or something on Netflix where you can go over and participate as opposed to these ‘movies for people who like cats and have no hair!’ I think Netflix is totally primed to do that.” 24:10 — Paul: “The whole system is set up where the platforms make it challenging to create real utility. The ways that you focus by making products that allow them to access the media and give them new powers and understanding — the platforms are not set up for that. They’re set up for continual delivery of a single experience which is usually a rectangle of video. They’re focused around the media, not the actual usage of the media to do things.” 24:50 — Paul: “Youtube is just a big open hole that anybody can throw their trash into, and sometimes people are like, ‘that’s not trash! That’s good!’” 26:00 — Rich: “For the consumer, I’m worried about them. The motivation on the creator side is to just pour more and more on my head. For the consumer, that’s led to a terrible state. Everything’s garbage. Most things are lousy.” 26:25 — Paul: “Even when you have a lot of money and you do everything right, the odds are that it’s gonna be pretty bad.” 28:35 — Rich: “You know what the most popular piece of advice is now? [Companies are] telling the person: Leave your phone outside the bedroom. Take a book with you. Pause and think! Think deeper!” 29:10 — Paul: “It’s always been crappy bestsellers and big stupid movies with car chases. That’s been the baseline for a long time. It’s not surprising that in an era of digital glut we just end up with more. Not better, but more… Do you try to build the new platforms where there are more constraints and more creative work? That’s a way to address this but you are climbing a very high mountain.” 32:20 — Paul: “Constraints matter, but platform economics take over. You have to choose how to live in this world, because it’s being done to you.” A full transcript of this episode is available. LINKS Dubolt by Darrell Hanley Is Netflix the Next HBO? Platform Economy Longform Rheo.tv Longreads And for His Next Act, Ev Williams Will Fix the Internet Track Changes is the weekly technology and culture podcast from Postlight, hosted by Paul Ford and Rich Ziade. Production, show notes and transcripts by EDITAUDIO. Podcast logo and design by Will Denton of Postlight.

  What conversations can we have in email? When do we need to transition them into meetings? How can we make meetings more productive, and less of a waste of time?  Like Startups, Most Meetings Fail: This week Paul Ford and Rich Ziade chat about the inefficiency of frequent meetings. We discuss what makes a meeting fail within the first few minutes, and provide strategies that can be deployed to make them successful (like defining a leader). We also complain about the neverending email thread, and the disconnect between our daily lives and the design of Google Calendar. Rich shares his best excuses (Ed note: lies) to get out of a meeting!  3:45 — Paul: “There’s the Two Pizza Rule for Amazon where no team should be bigger than what you can feed with two pizzas.” 4:00 — Paul: “I think there are three good meetings. There is, ‘hi, let’s all get in the room as higher primates and get a sense of each other.’ You need to see and understand the people who are going to be working with you on something. There’s the kickoff. Then there’s the ‘we went away and did some work and we wanted to show you that work and get your discussion within about a half hour.’ Then there’s the standing process focus meeting in which you know what you’re going to do, it’s about a half hour long, and it’s just more efficient to […] find out what the tasks are and walk away.” 6:10 — Rich: “This is free for all our listeners. It’s the opposite of saying ‘this is a waste of time.’ Ready? Here’s the sentence: ‘You don’t really need me for this.’” 6:30 — Paul: “The calendar is this territory that belongs to you.” 10:35 — Paul: “Let’s be honest. Calendering software is terrible. The way that we’ve arranged the weeks so that they’re verticle stacks from top to bottom, that’s now how humans think about things.” 11:00 — Paul: “Time really works like a slithering snake. It goes from left to right.” 11:50 — Paul: “95% of meetings fail within the first six minutes.” 13:37 — Rich: You know what the worst invite is? The preface is this: ‘We all gotta get into a room.’ You get in a room and you realize the email thread was way more productive than us getting in a room.” 15:00 — Paul: “I’ll tell you what I like. Email or meetings? Neither. They’re both terrible.” 18:30 — Paul: “My brain works that way. Business brains don’t work that way. They talk and talk… My brain works in 8.5 by 11 inch paper, top to bottom. I can’t get that in business, and I accept that. I always feel a little bit like a space alien.” 20:40 — Rich: “If there isn’t a clear path to failure, then that meeting is useless.” 20:50 — Paul: “What favour are you doing anyone by hiding the fact that you’re secretly a compulsive lunatic who needs them to do things?” 21:00 — Rich: “The three legs of a stool are ‘what is the thing?’, ‘who’s responsible for the thing?’, and ‘when are you gonna get the thing?’” A full transcript of this episode is available. LINKS Jeff Bezos Meeting scheduling tool The ‘two pizza rule’ is Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos’ secret to productive meetings Jeff Bezos explains his famous one-character emails Track Changes is the weekly technology and culture podcast from Postlight, hosted by Paul Ford and Rich Ziade. Production, show notes and transcripts by EDITAUDIO. Podcast logo and design by Will Denton of Postlight.  

"The Kind of Rich You do not Want to Be", Chris Hodge