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In this episode of Behind the Genes, we explore how ethical preparedness can offer a more compassionate and collaborative approach to genomic medicine. Drawing on insights from the EPPiGen Project, our guests discuss how creative storytelling methods, like poetry, have helped families and professionals navigate the complex emotional, ethical and practical realities of genomics. Our guests reflect on the power of involving patients and families as equal partners in research, and how this can lead to more inclusive, empathetic, and effective care. The conversation explores how ethics can be a tool for support, not just regulation, and how creating space for people to share their stories can have a lasting impact on healthcare delivery. Our host for this episode, Dr Natalie Banner, Director of Ethics at Genomics England is joined by Professor Bobbie Farsides, Professor of Clinical and Biomedical Ethics and Dr Richard Gorman, Senior Research Fellow, both at Brighton and Sussex Medical School, and Paul Arvidson, member of the Genomics England Participant Panel and the Dad's Representative for SWAN UK. Paul shares his poem 'Tap tap tap' from the Helix of Love poetry book and we also hear from Lisa Beaton and Jo Wright, both members of the Participant Panel. "The project gave us the tools to find a different way to get at all of those things inside of all of us who were going through that experience... It's almost like a different lens or a different filter to give us a way to look at all those things, almost like a magnifying lens; you can either hold it really close to your eye and it gives you like a blurry view of the world that goes on and you can relax behind that and find a way to explore things in a funny way or an interesting way, but you can also go really close into the subject and then you've got to deal with the things that are painful and the things that are difficult and the things that have had an impact." You can download the transcript, or read it below. Natalie: Welcome to Behind the Genes. Bobbie: In an earlier conversation with Paul, he used the word ‘extractive,' and he said that he's been involved in research before, and looking back on it he had felt at times it could be a little bit extractive. You come in, you ask questions, you take the data away and analyse it, and it might only be by chance that the participants ever know what became of things next. One of the real principles of this project was always going to be co-production and true collaboration with our participants. Our participants now have a variety of ways in which they can transport their voices into spaces that they previously found maybe alienating, challenging, and not particularly welcoming. Natalie: My name is Natalie Banner, I'm the Director of Ethics at Genomics England and your host on today's episode of Behind the Genes. Today I'll be joined by Paul Arvidson, a member of the participant panel at Genomics England, Professor Bobbie Farsides, Professor of Clinical and Biomedical Ethics at Brighton and Sussex Medical School, and Dr Rich Gorman, Senior Research Fellow, also at Bright and Sussex Medical School.  Today, we'll be exploring the ethical preparedness in genomic medicine or EPPiGen Project. This project examined how the promise and challenges of genomic medicine are understood and experienced by the people at the heart of it, both the clinicians providing care and the patients and families involved.  A big part of the EPPiGen Project explored using creative methods of storytelling and poetry to explore the experiences of parents of children with rare genetic conditions.  We'll discuss why the idea of ethical preparedness is crucial in genomic medicine to acknowledge the challenges and uncertainties that often accompany the search for knowledge and treatment in genomic healthcare, and to help professionals develop the skills to navigate the complex ethical considerations.    If you enjoy today's episode we'd love your support. Please like, share and rate us wherever you listen to your podcasts. Is there a guest you'd really like to hear on a future episode?  Get in touch at podcast@genomicsengland.co.uk. So, I'm going to ask our fantastic guests to introduce themselves.  Paul, would you like to go first? Paul: Hi, I'm Paul Arvidson. As well as my Genomics England hat, I've got a SWAN hat as well, I'm the dads' rep for SWAN UK, and I'm on the poets from the EPPiGen Project.  Natalie: Brilliant to have you hear today. Thanks, Paul. Rich?  Rich: Hi, I'm Rich Gorman, I'm a Senior Research Fellow at Brighton and Sussex Medical School and I've been working on some of the research on the EPPiGen Project that looks at people's social and ethical experiences of genomic medicine, and particularly families' lived experiences of genomics.  Natalie: Brilliant. Really looking forward to hearing from you. And Bobbie?  Bobbie: Hello, I'm Bobbie Farsides, I'm Professor of Clinical and Biomedical Ethics at Brighton and Sussex Medical School and co-PI with Professor Anneke Lucasson of the Wellcome Trust funded EPPiGen Project, and it's been my pleasure and privilege to be involved in the work that we're going to talk about today.  Natalie: Really fantastic to have the 3 of you here today. So, we're going to take a slightly unusual approach to starting the podcast today and we're going to begin with Paul who's going to read us a poem from the book Helix of Love. Paul, over to you.  Paul: This is called Tap, Tap, Tap.  ‘Tap, tap, tap, I hold the egg to my ear. There it is again, tap, tap, tap. Run to get a torch and light through the shell, to see who's tapping from within. Chicken's home from work these days just for fun and the odd egg. Market stalls swapped for medicines, cash boxes for cough machines. We kept the apron though. Profound learning disability is our life now, most of it, learning about it, learning from it, surviving with it, despite. It's a subtle egg though, this. The shell is there, invisible, but there's a person inside, tap, tap, tap.  What are you trying to tell us about what the world's like for you? Are you bored? Do you hurt? Is your sister a love or a pain? Tap, tap, tap. I wish I could set you free.'  Natalie: Thank you, Paul. Such beautiful and powerful words. I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us a little bit about that poem and your journey and maybe touch on what the EPPiGen Project has meant for you.  Paul: Wow, that's a lot to unpack in one go. I suppose the oddness of the metaphor is probably worth a mention. The way the project worked is that Bobbie and Rich collected together a proper poet, Dawn Gorman, and she led us through the process of kind of, she basically taught us all to be poets from scratch, it was… When you say it like that it was a hugely audacious project really to just collect all these randoms together in a room and throw a poet at them and see what happened.   And they trusted us, I suppose, and trusted Dawn that there was going to be something came out of this. But one of Dawn's techniques was that like each week we did… I think we did… Did we do 6 weeks, chaps? Which felt like a huge amount of time, but it went in milliseconds. But what she did every week was that she gave us either a poetic form to work with, like, you know, “This week we're going to learn how to do a haiku, or a sonnet,” or whatever, or she'd gone away and thought of a particular poem that she thought might resonate with us and then she'd bring that to the session. And she'd read a poem out and then say, “Right, what did you make of this? Go away and write what it inspires you to write.”    So, the poem that I wrote was, the inspiration for that session was a poem called The Egg by Richard Skinner. His poem was more about the form of the object itself, so, although that sounds really abstract, it really, really helped. So, every week it would be like Dawn threw this object into the group and said, “Right, okay, here's your new prompt, bosh, off you go.” And although that sounds like the most obscure way to deal with anything, because you get a structure around which to organise your thoughts it was just this like hugely powerful thing for everybody.    And so, the thing that came to mind for me was the metaphor of the egg rather than the egg itself and it just kind of chimed with all of us. Like we used to run the egg stall in Minehead farmers' market and so, I married into a country girl and so she had like 200 laying hens at one point, and so we had this whole market stall antics but also it spoke to so many things in one hit. So we gave up that part of our lives as our daughter Nenah's condition became more and more complex.    She was always, once we knew what her genetic condition was one of the few things that we knew from the get-go was that it was progressive. So we knew in advance that that was the case, but we didn't know what that meant. And so slowly but surely one of the things we had to do was give up our working life, you know, one week and one hour at a time, it felt. So part of the poem's about that as well, the shift in the poem from the comedy bit to the beginning to the more serious bits at the end, and it kind of felt like we gave those things up day by day but the poem kind of got to speak to that.   And then there's also the metaphor. Once you've got a good metaphor it's always good to run with it, you know? And so the idea of the metaphor of somebody who's got profound learning disabilities and can't speak being inside this shell and as parents you're always kind of peeking in from the outside to see what's going on within or to try and find ways, the idea of when you're checking to see if you've got a chick inside your shell, and you do this thing called ‘candle' where you hold the light to it, that I describe in the poem, and you like hold it to your ear and hear if there's movement going on inside. And you kind of, I don't know, I felt with a profoundly learning-disabled child that you always feel like you're doing that as a parent as well to see if what you're doing is, you know, if you're still communicating while you're trying to be a parent.  Natalie: Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Paul, both the poem and also your exploration of how you got to that point in writing that poem.  Tremendously powerful to kind of understand and hear about that experience.  Bobbie, if I can come to you. Paul referred to that project as kind of audacious, can you tell us a little bit about the origins of the Helix of Love but also why storytelling, especially through poetry, was so important for the EPPiGen Project?  Bobbie: Yes, of course, Natalie. But can I start by saying I was so pleased that you got Paul to speak for a while after because I always have to compose myself after hearing these poems because they really do hit so powerfully, however many times you hear them. And I think that is part of what we wanted to achieve with this project, we wanted to use innovative research methods, we wanted to be…  I love the word ‘audacious'; I'm going to borrow that.  We wanted to be audacious; we wanted to be courageous, and let me tell you, our Ethics Committee were a little bit worried about the sorts of things we told them we wanted to do. But we knew because we live and work in Brighton that the world is full of creative people and we'd already had such wonderful partnerships with people over the years, we knew that we could draw people into this project who would help us to work with this fabulous group of parents ,in a way that would give them, as Paul says, an opportunity to explore their own feelings and their own experience and share it as they wished.    In an earlier conversation with Paul, which he might find surprising that it's stuck with me so much, he used the word ‘extractive' and he said that he'd been involved in research before and looking back on it he had felt at times it could be a little bit extractive. You come in, you ask questions, you take the data away and analyse it and it might only be by chance that the participants ever know what became of things next. One of the real principles of this project was always going to be co-production and true collaboration with our participants, and the poetry project probably wouldn't have come about if it hadn't been for the passion of one of our participants who was sort of finding a love for poetry herself and said, “Can we try this next?” So, you know, it means so much to Rich and I that we ended up with this amazing book, but it's not our book, it's our poets', as we like to refer to them, book.   So, one of the things that we are so pleased about in this project is that our participants now have a variety of ways in which they can transport their voices into spaces that they previously found maybe alienating, challenging, and not particularly welcoming. And I think another wonderful upshot from this project has been how receptive people have been to the work. And it's a sort of commonly held myth that your average philosophy article has a readership of 3.4 people. Rich created a wonderful map to show how Helix has travelled round the world and touched thousands of people – I don't think that's an exaggeration – and we couldn't be more grateful for that as researchers because we feel as passionately about these subjects as our participants and it is they who have really got this project on the map. Paul, you were going to come in, I hope.  Paul: I feel like the one thing that this project really did was, I know PPIE is a phrase that's bandied round but this project kind of stripped that theme apart and took the ‘I' bit, this project is like built around inclusion and because it felt like, if we'd have just been jumping in a room with Dawn and told to get on with it, I don't think it would've worked as well. The idea that it was kind of curated by Bobbie and Rich, we very much felt like our hands were held through the process, and after them having had to kick down doors in the Ethics Department to be able to get the project through at all, it's like “What are you going to do to these poor parents?” having gone through that process themselves behind the scenes, then to kind of feel like we were guided through this process. And we were guided and held, and they were super-aware of all of us. And the fact that every time you tell these stories as a parent who's gone through them there's a cost. And we've had this discussion with the panel before and the communication group, about the fact that every time you come to a parent and say, “Tell us your story” there's a cost.   And so, they were aware of that, and they held that in both of their hands and so it couldn't have been anything other than this collaborative project by the time we'd finished.  Advert: The Genomics England Research Summit is fast approaching and registration is now open! Join us for this one day in-person event on Tuesday 17 June 2025. This year's agenda dives into rare condition diagnosis, cancer genomics, pharmacogenomics, therapeutic trials, and the impact of emerging technologies. Hear from leading experts and inspirational speakers as we explore the present and future of genomics and the latest research and technology from the Genomics England research community. Keep an eye on the website, genomicsresearchsummit.co.uk for all the details and to secure your spot. Spaces are limited, so don't miss out. We'll see you at the summit! Natalie: We're going to hear a clip from Lisa Beaton, a member of the participant panel at Genomics England, who shares what it has meant for her to take part in the project.  Lisa: It was an amazing opportunity. I had a huge sense of imposter syndrome actually when I as invited to join, because I was aware of some of the people who'd already taken part in the project and although I can bring lived experience to the table I don't really consider myself as a creative writer or anything like that, although I do enjoy it. When I first started in the group, we were just doing free-flowing writing. It was really cathartic, and I didn't expect that in any way, shape or form. To put pen to paper without necessarily having any strategy in mind, just letting the thoughts come out and ramble away, I didn't really know what was going to come blurting out onto my notepad, and reading some of it back was moving but it was frustrating. It was moving, it was everything really, that opportunity just as a safe space, knowing I didn't have to share it with anybody if I didn't want to but I could, and I could just, I suppose I would call it almost like a brain fart, it just rambled away and maybe it was a way of downloading some of the emotions that I was carrying.   As the project went on and we explored different creative mediums I really enjoyed that and found different skills that I wouldn't have thought about. And it was very thought-provoking, being able to go back and think about some of our very early experiences, which is, not that I've buried them but it's just you move on to deal with the here and now, and it brought me back to some of those very raw emotions of the first days which I think are, I hope, helpful to certainly the medical community in terms of thinking about how they talk to new parents going through similar situations. I was very grateful.  Natalie: Rich, I'd like to come to you now. As Bobbie and Paul have both mentioned, the outputs for this project have really spread far and wide and maybe beyond the kind of academic circles that you might typically think. I'd really like to hear from you about how you think the project has helped healthcare professionals, particularly really enabling them to understand a little bit more about what it means to be part of a genomic healthcare service and the journey that patients and families go through. Would you share a little bit about your experience in the project, particularly for healthcare professionals?  Rich: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things that when Bobbie and I set out to do this, that was one of the real aims, was to sort of help healthcare professionals have a bit more of an insight into what it means to access genomic medicine services from a patient or family perspective. And, as Bobbie said, there were 2 ways we could have gone and done this; we could've done some sort of conventional social science interviews, written that up in a lovely social science or philosophy journal article and no one would've probably read it, but instead we thought about the power of the arts to actually change in terms of how we were sort of collecting and collating people's stories and then how we were sharing and disseminating those stories as well. And I think the medium by which stories are told affect the kind of stories that get told, as Paul was sort of hinting at earlier.    When we ask patients to tell us their story, you know, there's a level of expectation there about what people are being asked to say in a form in a way, and certainly we didn't get people in a room and say, “You must write about genomics.” So many of the poems in the collection aren't really about sequencing or big data, they're about these kind of much wider themes of everyday life. And I think that's been really powerful in allowing healthcare professionals to sort of understand for patients obviously genomics is really important but it's not the be all and end all of everything that's going on in their lives, you know, there are so many other pressures, so many other hopes and desires, and people want an opportunity to express some of those positive aspects of their life with their loved ones and it not just be medicalised all of the time.    Again, as Bobbie said, it's also opened up our research travelling really well and just become something that's really accessible for people to pick up and read through, and I've had conversations with healthcare professionals that have said, “Oh I read through the book of poetry and it's made me realise all of these things.” Language particularly has been a really prominent theme that people have reported, telling us they've learnt a lot about it, and thinking about how they write their letters and how they communicate with people. And obviously this isn't new, you know, bioethicists for years have been talking about the need to communicate very carefully, very precisely and in a caring way, but I think there's something about communicating those messages through a really powerful art form like poetry through patients' own words that allows clinicians and healthcare professionals to sort of really get the impact of that in a very, very powerful way.  Natalie: Thanks, Rich, really helpful insights there. I really want to pick up on your point about language and come back to Paul on that because I know that's a topic area that can often be, you know, hugely sensitive to families that the medicalisation, the terminology that's used, especially, you know, complex areas like genomics, coming back to this term we mentioned earlier about being sort of alienating. How have you found that the work through the EpiGen project and Helix of Love, has it potentially helped the way that families can think about the right sorts of language and enable health professionals to sort of approach some of these questions in a slightly more human way? Paul: Difficult to say. It's a very, very live topic all the time. There's like a backchat communications channel with the Genomics England panel where, because we all go along and do this thing, but we all share that genomics common thread in our lives. One parent was breaking their heart about the fact that they'd had sight of genetic science reports that basically described their child, and children like them as ‘lumped together' in a project, and she was gutted about it. And we all were as well, and we were all open-mouthed about it. The whole idea of kind of separating the science and the science language out from the people who are involved, it is our job, isn't it, you know, our job as the panel members is to remind people that those are people, not statistics. But it's a really live subject and the more people, the more professionals who can be reminded of that on a daily basis and the more we can find kind and open ways to deliver that message to professionals, and every single day that we do that makes a difference, I think. If one parent has to get less of a letter like that or one professional thinks more carefully about how they phrase stuff before it goes out the door, then that's one less parent who's got to go through that.  Natalie: Absolutely. And I'm thinking about that insight. I suppose the anticipation and the realisation to healthcare professionals about the impact of the way they approach things, the language they use, the kind of mindset they might adopt with parents and families, one really important aspect of the project was to do sort of preparedness and the idea that you should be able to anticipate and plan for and acknowledge some of the ethical challenges that might come through when you're dealing with questions of genomic healthcare where there may be lots of uncertainty, there may be a long journey to go through.   Bobbie, can I come to you to help us unpack this notion of ethical preparedness as a core theme for EPPiGen? Help us understand what that means in kind of simple terms and why does it matter for those who are working in the genomic medicine and healthcare space.  Bobbie: I think the way in which most people will have heard of this concept of preparedness is in relation to disaster planning. We know that some of the good things we try and do in life are also potentially fraught with challenges and difficulties just because of their complexity and because of the wide range of people and organisations that will be involved. Can we take this idea of preparedness and almost say, “You have a moral responsibility to be ethically prepared when, for example, you embark upon a really dramatic change in healthcare delivery or an introduction of fantastic new healthcare innovation”?    And genomics seemed to be the perfect case study for this. We then had to say, “What does that actually mean in practice?” And I think here we wanted to move away from the idea that you can ethically prepare people by putting a small albeit very expert and clever group of people in a room to write guidance and regulations, those things are needed and they're useful. But it's actually much more important to almost recruit everybody, to bring everybody up to speed, so that the ethical challenges aren't a complete shock to those who are delivering the service in the frontline, so that those who plan systems actually think whilst doing so of the ethical challenges that can be posed by the tasks they're attempting to achieve.    And I was a sort of founder member of the Ethics Advisory Committee at Genomics England, and it was so interesting in those early days because there were no patients, there were no participants. We were sitting alongside people whilst they designed and put in place basic processes, strategies and ethics was a part of that. And a really important part of that to me, at those meetings, was hearing what the potential participants had to say about it because, again, the Participant Panel was involved. And I found that those were my people, those were the people who were worrying about, concerned about the same things as I was.  So, I think to be prepared we have to take on the responsibility of giving people who work in ethically challenging areas opportunities to come together to acknowledge the complexity of the task, to share strategies and tools, but also, very importantly, to not become divorced from the people that they are attempting to serve, because in fact we feel that this part of our project, and our project is much bigger than this and we've done some fantastic things working with healthcare professionals, medical scientists, etc, etc, but this part of the project is an attempt to say, “We can better prepare families as well by ensuring that we tell them that their voices are valuable, that they're important, and they help rather than hinder healthcare professionals in doing their jobs.”  Natalie: That's a really important point around the idea that this approach can help, can be positive. Because I think sometimes you think about preparedness and, and quite often with ethics it's about risk, it's about, you know, “How do we avoid the risks?” but there's a very positive story to tell about taking a more preparedness-type approach to thinking through ethical complexities, challenges and so on, both for health professionals and, as you say, for families. I wonder if you could just talk a little bit more about the kind of positive aspects that that can bring to everyone in that genomics healthcare journey, both the health professionals and the families.  Because I think sometimes it's easy just to think that it's mostly about sort of avoiding the risks and the pitfalls, and that might be harder to engage with people if you take that sort of risk-based approach.  Bobbie: Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think the ability to confront risk and uncertainty is a sign of maturity. And we find medical students, for example, hate any sense of uncertainty; they want to be told how to do something and they want to know that they'll be able to do that thing and get it right. And our job is often to say, “Well it's not going to be as easy as that, in fact it might be impossible, and here's what you have to do instead and here's how you allow yourself to fail or to not achieve in the way that you want but still do something really meaningful for the people that you're caring for.”  So, I think there's that aspect of saying, “It's part of medical education, it's part of how we should think in organisations that wherever you take risks, wherever you try to push frontiers, blur boundaries…”  I mean, genomic medicine has done something really interesting in terms of blurring the boundary between scientific research and clinical care. Wherever you do these things there are going to be challenges but those challenges, they're fascinating, they're interesting, they can bring us together. If we've got a shared will to get through them, you know, to make things work, then it's enlivens what you're doing; it's not a barrier.   I sort of began teaching and working in the space of bioethics right back in the ‘80s, which is a shock to you, I'm sure, but in those days I'm afraid that ethics was seen as a block, a barrier, a hurdle that people had to get over or through. And I think there's still a sensitivity, and certainly, I myself have been sort of challenged on critiques that I have offered to say, “Oh that's a bit harsh.” But I think what ethics attempts to do now, and certainly through really putting a positive spin on this idea of working together to establish ethical preparedness in important spaces, is to show that actually ethics can be very facilitative, it can be very supportive, and it can help people. It's not a surveillance mechanism, it's actually another clinical tool and something that, you know, people should seek support around.  Advert: If you're enjoying what you've heard today and you'd like to hear some more great tales from the genomics coalface, why don't you join us on the Road to Genome podcast, where our host, Helen Bethell, chats to the professionals, experts and patients involved in genomics today. In our new series, Helen talks to a fantastic array of guests including the rapping consultant, clinical geneticist Professor Julian Barwell about Fragile X Syndrome, cancer genomics and the holistic approach to his practice. A genuine mic-drop of an interview. The Road to Genome is available wherever you get your podcasts. Natalie: Rich, if I could come to you thinking about that reframing, I suppose, in your own research practice as an early career researcher, whether you're seeing that maturity in approach in thinking about some of these really complex, knotty ethical questions in genomics, are you seeing a greater appreciation for those?  And where do you think you're going to take your research as a result of this project in that space?  Rich: Yeah, thanks, that's a great question. Yeah, I think so, and I think one of the things that's really been revealing in this is the appetite for this kind of work in the sort of genomics sector, an appetite for thinking about the sort of complex ethical issues, for engaging with kind of arts-based research, for sort of finding new language and new spaces to involve patient and family perspectives and stories and think about how we can learn from them.    I think in the highly scientific, highly technical space of genomics we often assume that everyone wants numbers and hard data but actually I think the way that this work has travelled, the amount of invitations we've had to sort of exhibit this work and talk to healthcare professionals and scientists about this work shows that there's this really rich appetite for thinking about this complexity and doing that work of ethical preparedness, as Bobbie's talked about, and I think it's fascinating. And I know a lot of the participants who joined in our project have also sort of had opportunities from being involved in our work and found that there are people that want to listen to their voices and hear from them and learn from them as well. So that's been really exciting, and I hope it will continue and I hope there's opportunities for much more interdisciplinary collaboration in the genomics space with philosophers, with social scientists with ethicists, with artists and, importantly, with patients.    Paul: You mentioned the idea that certainly the poetry at the very least has allowed those voices to get into different spaces, and I think when those things first started happening it was when we at least as the people who'd written the poems felt that there was a huge big impact from this stuff. And I wasn't the first one to read one of these poems out loud, and in a way the collection of poetry became bigger than the sum of its parts in a funny kind of a way. And I can't remember but somebody read one of the poems at a conference somewhere and they said at the end of it that you could've heard a pin drop, and it was just that thought that actually with a big audience expecting kind of quite dry subject matter about genetics, to have felt that moment where the poem got launched off the stage and then it impacted on the audience and then, the way they described it, you could almost kind of feel them describing the ripples of the poem just like spreading out amongst this kind of silent audience and everyone kind of taking this kind of mental sigh of like “Oh that's what it feels like.” And the idea of that happening was when, for me anyway, when we knew that what we'd created was bigger than the sum of its parts and had its own legs, Bobbie and Rich had been the Dr Frankensteins of this kind of amazing, beautiful monster. Natalie: Obviously the poetry's got into your soul, Paul, the metaphors are fantastic. But just to make sure we bring in even more participant voices and perspectives into this we're just going to hear now from Jo Wright, who's another member of the participant panel, who's going to share what the project and the participant in it has meant for her.  Jo: So being part of the EPPiGen Project, it helped me to find my voice in an area that was relatively new to me, and also it was a way to take control of my own experiences rather than feel like I'm being swept along by a lot of systems.    And there were things that I really value that I thought contributed to making the project so successful. One was that they asked the question “What is this experience like for you, the experience of being part of a research project, the 100,000 Genomes experience of waiting, the experience of having your data in the library?” And no one had asked that before. You go to your appointments and you're in the system and, you know, it's kind of, everyone was finding their way to some extent because it was new for all the clinicians as well, but the fact that they asked, because no one asked that before, I don't have an outlet for that.     And then the other thing was that it was completely open so there was no research interview or questionnaire to answer, no expectation about what it was going to look like at the end. And I think working that way really strengthened the connection between us as parents of children with rare conditions and then also our relationships with Bobbie and Rich as the researchers and with the wider clinical community when they started to see our work and respond to it. So it was a way to understand people's individual experiences but it also made us feel connected and empowered through sort of like shared human experience, and that could be between us as the participants but also shared experiences between us and the researchers or us and clinicians and scientists that were looking at what we've done.  Natalie: So we've heard lots about the experience of participating in this fantastic EPPiGen Project, the kind of creative storytelling methods, the audacious methods that have been used, and some fantastic impacts beyond the kind of typical what could be quite dry sort of academic circles that this kind of work has spread out to.  I'd be really interested to hear from each of you about the takeaways, what you've learned, what's changed for you and what you'd like our listeners to really understand about this project and the work, and the sort of outputs from it and the ways it might continue to have resonance and impact going into the future, so whether people are patients, families, clinicians, researchers. What would you like people to remember and what's affected you most about the project?    Bobbie, I might start with you.  Bobbie: I think we have to always be very careful when we get excited about something - and the ‘we' here are the people in the health community, the education community, etc - to remember. As Rich said earlier, that this is only ever going to be quite a small part of other people's lives. You know, we've all devoted big parts of our careers, our enthusiasm, to thinking about genomics, to working in this space. I would really like people to pick up the book and work to understand a bit better about the everyday lives, the hopes, the expectations, the fears of the families who may or may not get a diagnosis, may or may not get on a good treatment path, all of whom want the best for themselves and everybody else from this venture.    But, as Paul knows better than most, it won't come to everybody, and we don't want anybody to be forgotten along the way. The people that signed up for Genomics England as participants were pioneers alongside medics and the scientists, and in these early years we want their experience to be recognised, and their experience goes much beyond their interaction with Genomics England and, unfortunately, all the work that we've produced shows how many challenges families have to face to secure a good life for their children, and I just want us all to just keep that in mind.    Natalie: Incredibly important to maintain that focus, that awareness. And, as you say, Bobbie, there's an interesting balance where there is a need for the drive and the innovation and the ambition to help ensure that we are pushing at the forefront of medical research but not leaving people behind and not ever forgetting, as you say, the experience of people who are actually at the forefront of this research and of genomic healthcare.   Paul, could I ask for your perspectives on this, and particularly how you see patient voices being involved in the future of genomic medicine, especially in light of your experience in the EPPiGen Project?  Paul: I think the biggest surprise and biggest takeaway for me was the project gave me, I mean, I can't speak necessarily for all the other poets, but you only need the evidence in the book itself. They gave us the tools, the project gave us the tools to find a different way to get at all of those things inside of all of us who were going through that experience. So it gave us a way to talk about all of those things and a way that was I suppose slightly removed to start with. It's almost like a different lens or a different filter to give us a way to look at all those things, almost like a magnifying lens; you can either hold it really close to your eye and it gives you like a blurry view of the world that goes on and you can relax behind that and find a way to explore things in a funny way or an interesting way, but you can also go really close into the subject and then you've got to deal with the things that are painful and the things that are difficult and the things that have had an impact.    But, because you've got that tool and you're used to using it or you're familiar with using it, it then gives you that safety. That's how I felt about it anyway, it was a massive tool to be able to get behind all of these things that I didn't even know I was feeling, or I knew they were making me uncomfortable, but I didn't know what they were or what name to give them. So the poetry gave us a chance to get behind all of that. Having read the poems, it feels like it's that for everybody but obviously you'd have to speak to them to know, but it certainly felt like that for me.  Natalie: And, Rich, your perspective.  What are you taking forward from the project, so what would your sort of key takeaway be?  Rich: I think it shows what is possible under that PPIE acronym. And there are many ways to do that involvement and engagement, it doesn't have to be a sort of dry tick-box exercise, there are much more creative ways to bring people's lived experiences and perspectives into conversations with genomics. So really, I suppose it's a call for other people to explore working in this way as well and think about what other kind of creative outputs could work here. I mean, we've had huge success, and I think a really interesting impact from working in this way.    And certainly as an early career researcher it's been really formative in my sort of academic journey, you know, reaffirmed that this is the kind of work that I want to do, working in this really co-productive way. And I think it's possible, it can be done, and, you know, ultimately it's just been a real privilege to do this kind of research, to sort of be trusted to sort of hold a space together for sharing people's stories and give people a platform to share some really powerful profound stories. And going back to what Paul was saying earlier, I think he hit the nail on the head, as he very often does, this is about evoking people's experiences, not just explaining people's experiences, and allowing those stories to travel.  And we don't know where stories will travel, we don't know how stories will travel, we don't know how stories will be received, but we know that they do sort of travel and they do have legacy and they stay memorable to people, they have emotional resonance. So, the impact of this work can often be hard to sort of pin down really specifically, but we know those stories are out there and people are listening and changing their practice as a result.  Natalie: We'll wrap up there. I'd like to thank our guests, Paul Arvidson, Professor Bobbie Farsides and Dr Rich Gorman, for joining me today as we discuss the EPPiGen Project. We heard some powerful insights from patients and families about their experiences, and why ethical preparedness is so important in the context of genomic medicine. If you would like to hear more like this, please subscribe to Behind the Genes on your favourite podcast app. Thank you for listening. I've been your host, Natalie Banner. This podcast was edited by Bill Griffin at Ventoux Digital and produced by Naimah Callachand. 

17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

This Sunday January 26, 2025 Pastor Matt Chewning continued in our All In series, and read from Galatians chapter one. Join us to hear about how Paul explains the gospel, and how it can sometimes be distorted ! Are you New to Netcast? Join our community through this link! https://netcast.churchcenter.com/people/forms/14863 00:00 - All In 03:27 - "You're a Sinner, But Jesus" 05:21 - Share the Gospel with Us 07:27 - The Message of Galatians 14:19 - Paul on the Law of God in Galatians 20:53 - Paul: If Anyone is Preaching a Gospel Contrary to the One 26:09 - 7 Most Common Disparages of the Gospel 32:54 - Heal the Wrong Way: Justified Works of the Law 36:34 - Paul: You're Not Repentant Through Works of the Law 

Paul Frazee is the CTO of Bluesky. He previously worked on the Beaker browser and the peer-to-peer social media protocol Secure Scuttlebutt. Paul discusses how Bluesky and ATProto got started, scaling up a social media site, what makes ATProto decentralized, lessons ATProto learned from previous peer-to-peer projects, and the challenges of content moderation. Episode transcript available here. My Bluesky profile. -- Related Links Bluesky ATProtocol ATProto for distributed systems engineers Bluesky and the AT Protocol: Usable Decentralized Social Media Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs) ActivityPub Webfinger Beaker web browser Secure Scuttlebutt -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Jeremy: Today I am talking to Paul Frazee. He's the current CTO of bluesky, and he previously worked on other decentralized applications like Beaker and Secure Scuttlebutt. [00:00:15] Paul: Thanks for having me. What's bluesky [00:00:16] Jeremy: For people who aren't familiar with bluesky, what is it? [00:00:20] Paul: So bluesky is an open social network, simplest way to put it, designed in particular for high scale. That's kind of one of the big requirements that we had when we were moving into it. and it is really geared towards making sure that the operation of the social network is open amongst multiple different organizations. [00:00:44] So we're one of the operators, but other folks can come in, spin up the software, all the open source software, and essentially have a full node with a full copy of the network active users and have their users join into our network. And they all work functionally as one shared application. [00:01:03] Jeremy: So it, it sounds like it's similar to Twitter but instead of there being one Twitter, there could be any number and there is part of the underlying protocol that allows them to all connect to one another and act as one system. [00:01:21] Paul: That's exactly right. And there's a metaphor we use a lot, which is comparing to the web and search engines, which actually kind of matches really well. Like when you use Bing or Google, you're searching the same web. So on the AT protocol on bluesky, you use bluesky, you use some alternative client or application, all the same, what we're we call it, the atmosphere, all one shared network, [00:01:41] Jeremy: And more than just the, the client. 'cause I think sometimes when people think of a client, they'll think of, I use a web browser. I could use Chrome or Firefox, but ultimately I'm connecting to the same thing. But it's not just people running alternate clients, right? [00:01:57] Paul: Their own full backend to it. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. The anchoring point on that being the fire hose of data that runs the entire thing is open as well. And so you start up your own application, you spin up a service that just pipes into that fire hose and taps into all the activity. History of AT Protocol [00:02:18] Jeremy: Talking about this underlying protocol maybe we could start where this all began so people get some context for where this all came from. [00:02:28] Paul: For sure. All right, so let's wind the clock back here in my brain. We started out 2022, right at the beginning of the year. We were formed as a, essentially a consulting company outside of Twitter with a contract with Twitter. And, uh, our goal was to build a protocol that could run, uh, Twitter, much like the way that we just described, which set us up with a couple of pretty specific requirements. [00:02:55] For one, we had to make sure that it could scale. And so that ended up being a really important first requirement. and we wanted to make sure that there was a strong kind of guarantees that the network doesn't ever get captured by any one operator. The idea was that Twitter would become the first, uh, adopter of the technology. [00:03:19] Other applications, other services would begin to take advantage of it and users would be able to smoothly migrate their accounts in between one or the other at any time. Um, and it's really, really anchored in a particular goal of just deconstructing monopolies. Getting rid of those moats that make it so that there's a kind of a lack of competition, uh, between these things. [00:03:44] And making sure that, if there was some kind of reason that you decided you're just not happy with what direction this service has been going, you move over to another one. You're still in touch with all the folks you were in touch with before. You don't lose your data. You don't lose your, your your follows. Those were the kind of initial requirements that we set out with. The team by and large came from, the decentralized web, movement, which is actually a pretty, large community that's been around since, I wanna say around 2012 is when we first kind of started to form. It got really made more specifically into a community somewhere around 2015 or 16, I wanna say. [00:04:23] When the internet archives started to host conferences for us. And so that gave us kind of a meeting point where all started to meet up there's kind of three schools of thought within that movement. There was the blockchain community, the, federation community, and the peer-to-peer community. [00:04:43] And so blockchain, you don't need to explain that one. You got Federation, which was largely ActivityPub Mastodon. And then peer-to-peer was IPFS, DAT protocol, um, secure scuttlebutt. But, those kinds of BitTorrent style of technologies really they were all kind of inspired by that. [00:05:02] So these three different kind of sub communities we're all working, independently on different ways to attack how to make these open applications. How do you get something that's a high scale web application without one corporation being the only operator? When this team came together in 2022, we largely sourced from the peer-to-peer group of the decentralized community. Scaling limitations of peer-to-peer [00:05:30] Paul: Personally, I've been working in the space and on those kinds of technologies for about 10 years at that stage. And, the other folks that were in there, you know, 5-10 each respectively. So we all had a fair amount of time working on that. And we had really kind of hit some of the limitations of doing things entirely using client devices. We were running into challenges about reliability of connections. Punching holes to the individual device is very hard. Synchronizing keys between the devices is very hard. Maintaining strong availability of the data because people's devices are going off and on, things like that. Even when you're using the kind of BitTorrent style of shared distribution, that becomes a challenge. [00:06:15] But probably the worst challenge was quite simply scale. You need to be able to create aggregations of a lot of behavior even when you're trying to model your application as largely peer wise interactions like messaging. You might need an aggregation of accounts that even exist, how do you do notifications reliably? [00:06:37] Things like that. Really challenging. And what I was starting to say to myself by the end of that kind of pure peer-to-peer stent was that it can't be rocket science to do a comment section. You know, like at some point you just ask yourself like, how, how hard are we willing to work to, to make these ideas work? [00:06:56] But, there were some pretty good pieces of tech that did come out of the peer-to-peer world. A lot of it had to do with what I might call a cryptographic structure. things like Merkel trees and advances within Merkel Trees. Ways to take data sets and reduce them down to hashes so that you can then create nice signatures and have signed data sets at rest at larger scales. [00:07:22] And so our basic thought was, well, all right, we got some pretty good tech out of this, but let's drop that requirement that it all run off of devices. And let's get some servers in there. And instead think of the entire network as a peer-to-peer mesh of servers. That's gonna solve your scale problem. [00:07:38] 'cause you can throw big databases at it. It's gonna solve your availability problems, it's gonna solve your device sync problems. But you get a lot of the same properties of being able to move data sets between services. Much like you could move them between devices in the peer-to-peer network without losing their identifiers because you're doing this in direction of, cryptographic identifiers to the current host. [00:08:02] That's what peer-to-peer is always doing. You're taking like a public key or hash and then you're asking the network, Hey, who has this? Well, if you just move that into the server, you get the same thing, that dynamic resolution of who's your active host. So you're getting that portability that we wanted real bad. [00:08:17] And then you're also getting that kind of in meshing of the different services where each of them is producing these data sets that they can sink from each other. So take peer-to-peer and apply it to the server stack. And that was our kind of initial thought of like, Hey, you know what? This might work. [00:08:31] This might solve the problems that we have. And a lot of the design fell out from that basic mentality. Crytographic identifiers and domain names [00:08:37] Jeremy: When you talk about these cryptographic identifiers, is the idea that anybody could have data about a person, like a message or a comment, and that could be hosted different places, but you would still know which person that originally came from. Is that, is that the goal there? [00:08:57] Paul: That's exactly it. Yeah. Yeah. You wanna create identification that supersedes servers, right? So when you think about like, if I'm using Twitter and I wanna know what your posts are, I go to twitter.com/jeremy, right? I'm asking Twitter and your ID is consequently always bound to Twitter. You're always kind of a second class identifier. [00:09:21] We wanted to boost up the user identifier to be kind of a thing freestanding on its own. I wanna just know what Jeremy's posts are. And then once you get into the technical system it'll be designed to figure out, okay, who knows that, who can answer that for you? And we use cryptographic identifiers internally. [00:09:41] So like all the data sets use these kind of long URLs to identify things. But in the application, the user facing part, we used domain names for people. Which I think gives the picture of how this all operates. It really moves the user accounts up into a free standing first class identifier within the system. [00:10:04] And then consequently, any application, whatever application you're using, it's really about whatever data is getting put into your account. And then that just exchanges between any application that anybody else is using. [00:10:14] Jeremy: So in this case, it sounds like the identifier is some long string that, I'm not sure if it's necessarily human readable or not. You're shaking your head no. [00:10:25] Paul: No. [00:10:26] Jeremy: But if you have that string, you know it's for a specific person. And since it's not really human readable, what you do is you put a layer on top of it which in this case is a domain that somebody can use to look up and find the identifier. [00:10:45] Paul: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we just use DNS. Put a TXT record in there, map into that long string, or you could do a .well-known file on a web server if that's more convenient for you. And then the ID that's behind that, the non-human readable one, those are called DIDs which is actually a W3C spec. Those then map to a kind of a certificate. What you call a DID document that kind of confirms the binding by declaring what that domain name should be. So you get this bi-directional binding. And then that certificate also includes signing keys and active servers. So you pull down that certificate and that's how the discovery of the active server happens is through the DID system. What's stored on a PDS [00:11:29] Jeremy: So when you refer to an active server what is that server and what is that server storing? [00:11:35] Paul: It's kinda like a web server, but instead of hosting HTML, it's hosting a bunch of JSON records. Every user has their own document store of JSON documents. It's bucketed into collections. Whenever you're looking up somebody on the network you're gonna get access to that repository of data, jump into a collection. [00:11:58] This collection is their post collection. Get the rkey (Record Key), and then you're pulling out JSON at the end of it, which is just a structured piece of stuff saying here's the CreatedAt, here's the text, here's the type, things like that. One way you could look at the whole system is it's a giant, giant database network. Servers can change, signing keys change, but not DID [00:12:18] Jeremy: So if someone's going to look up someone's identifier, let's say they have the user's domain they have to go to some source, right? To find the user's data. You've mentioned, I think before, the idea that this is decentralized and by default I would, I would picture some kind of centralized resource where I send somebody a domain and then they give me back the identifier and the links to the servers. [00:12:46] So, so how does that work in practice where it actually can be decentralized? [00:12:51] Paul: I mentioned that your DID that non-human readable identifier, and that has that certificate attached to it that lists servers and signing keys and things like that. [00:13:00] So you're just gonna look up inside that DID document what that server is your data repository host. And then you contact that guy and say, all right, I'm told you're hosting this thing. Here's the person I'm looking for, hand over the hand over the data. It's really, you know, pretty straightforward. [00:13:18] The way that gets decentralized is by then to the fact that I could swap out that active server that's in my certificate and probably wanna rotate the signing keys 'cause I've just changed the, you know. I don't want to keep using the same signing keys as I was using previously because I just changed the authority. [00:13:36] So that's the migration change, change the hosting server, change out the signing keys. Somebody that's looking for me now, they're gonna load up my document, my DID document. They're gonna say, okay, new server, new keys. Pull down the data. Looks good, right? Matches up with the DID doc. [00:13:50] So that's how you get that level of portability. But when those changes happen, the DID doesn't change, right? The DID document changes. So there's the level of indirection there and that's pretty important because if you don't have a persistent identifier whenever you're trying to change out servers, all those backlinks are gonna break. [00:14:09] That's the kind of stuff that stops you from being able to do clean migrations on things like web-based services. the only real option is to go out and ask everybody to update their data. And when you're talking about like interactions on the social network, like people replying to each other, there's no chance, right? [00:14:25] Every time somebody moves you're gonna go back and modify all those records. You don't even control all the records from the top down 'cause they're hosted all over the web. So it's just, you can't do it. Generally we call this account portability, that you're kinda like phone number portability that you can change your host, but, so that part's portable, but the ID stays the same. [00:14:45] And keeping that ID the same is the real key to making sure that this can happen without breaking the whole system. [00:14:52] Jeremy: And so it, it sounds like there's the decentralized id, then there's the decentralized ID document that's associated with that points you to where the actual location of your, your data, your posts, your pictures and whatnot. but then you also mentioned that they could change servers. [00:15:13] So let's say somebody changes where their data is, is stored, that would change the servers, I guess, in their document. But [00:15:23] then how do all of these systems. Know okay. I need to change all these references to your old server, to these new servers, [00:15:32] Paul: Yeah. Well, the good news is that you only have to, you, you got the public data set of all the user's activity, and then you have like internal caches of where the current server is. You just gotta update those internal caches when you're trying to contact their server. Um, so it's actually a pretty minimal thing to just like update like, oh, they moved, just start talking to update my, my table, my Redis, that's holding onto that kind of temporary information, put it on ttl, that sort of thing. Most communication won't be between servers, it will be from event streams [00:16:01] Paul: And, honestly, in practice, a fair amount of the system for scalability reasons doesn't necessarily work by servers directly contacting each other. It's actually a little bit more like how, I told you before, I'm gonna use this metaphor a lot, the search engines with the web, right? What we do is we actually end up crawling the repositories that are out in the world and funneling them into event streams like a Kafka. And that allows the entire system to act like a data processing pipeline where you're just tapping into these event streams and then pushing those logs into databases that produce these large scale aggregations. [00:16:47] So a lot of the application behavior ends up working off of these event logs. If I reply to somebody, for instance, I don't necessarily, it's not, my server has to like talk to your server and say, Hey, I'm replying to you. What I do is I just publish a reply in my repository that gets shot out into the event logs, and then these aggregators pick up that the reply got created and just update their database with it. [00:17:11] So it's not that our hosting servers are constantly having to send messages with each other, you actually use these aggregators to pull together the picture of what's happening on the network. [00:17:22] Jeremy: Okay, so like you were saying, it's an event stream model where everybody publishes the events the things that they're doing, whether that's making a new post, making a reply, that's all being posted to this event stream. And then everybody who provides, I'm not sure if instances is the right term, but an implementation of the atmosphere protocol (Authenticated Transfer protocol). [00:17:53] They are listening for all those changes and they don't necessarily have to know that you moved servers because they're just listening for the events and you still have the same identifier. [00:18:10] Paul: Generally speaking. Yeah. 'cause like if you're listening to one of these event streams what you end up looking for is just the signature on it and making sure that the signature matches up. Because you're not actually having to talk to their live server. You're just listening to this relay that's doing this aggregation for you. [00:18:27] But I think actually to kind of give a little more clarity to what you're talking about, it might be a good idea to refocus how we're talking about the system here. I mentioned before that our goal was to make a high scale system, right? We need to handle a lot of data. If you're thinking about this in the way that Mastodon does it, the ActivityPub model, that's actually gonna give you the wrong intuition. Designing the protocol to match distributed systems practices (Event sourcing / Stream processing) [00:18:45] Paul: 'cause we chose a dramatically different system. What we did instead was we picked up, essentially the same practices you're gonna use for a data center, a high scale application data center, and said, all right, how do you tend to build these sorts of things? Well, what you're gonna do is you're gonna have, multiple different services running different purposes. [00:19:04] It gets pretty close to a microservices approach. You're gonna have a set of databases, and then you're going to, generally speaking for high scale, you're gonna have some kind of a kafka, some kind of a event log that you are tossing changes about the state of these databases into. And then you have a bunch of secondary systems that are tapping into the event log and processing that into, the large scale, databases like your search index, your, nice postgres of user profiles. [00:19:35] And that makes sure that you can get each of these different systems to perform really well at their particular task, and then you can detach them in their design. for instance, your primary storage can be just a key value store that scales horizontally. And then on the event log, you, you're using a Kafka that's designed to handle. [00:19:58] Particular semantics of making sure that the messages don't get dropped, that they come through at a particular throughput. And then you're using, for us, we're using like ScyllaDB for the big scale indexes that scales horizontally really well. So it's just different kind of profiles for different pieces. [00:20:13] If you read Martin Kleppman's book, data Intensive applications I think it's called or yeah. A lot of it gets captured there. He talks a lot about this kind of thing and it's sometimes called a kappa architecture is one way this is described, event sourcing is a similar term for it as well. [00:20:30] Stream processing. That's pretty standard practices for how you would build a traditional high scale service. so if you take, take this, this kind of microservice architecture and essentially say, okay, now imagine that each of the services that are a part of your data center could be hosted by anybody, not just within our data center, but outside of our data center as well and should be able to all work together. [00:20:57] Basically how the AT Proto is designed. We were talking about the data repository hosts. Those are just the primary data stores that they hold onto the user keys and they hold onto those JSON records. And then we have another service category we call Relay that just crawls those data repositories and sucks that in that fire hose of data we were talking about that event log. App views pull data from relay and produces indexes and threads [00:21:21] Paul: And then we have what we call app views that sit there and tail the index and tail the log, excuse me, and produce indexes off of it, they're listening to those events and then like, making threads like okay, that guy posted, that guy replied, that guy replied. [00:21:37] That's a thread. They assemble it into that form. So when you're running an application, you're talking to the AppView to read the network, and you're talking to the hosts to write to the network, and each of these different pieces sync up together in this open mesh. So we really took a traditional sort of data center model and just turned it inside out where each piece is a part of the protocol and communicate it with each other and therefore anybody can join into that mesh. [00:22:07] Jeremy: And to just make sure I am tracking the data repository is the data about the user. So it has your decentralized identifier, it has your replies, your posts, And then you have a relay, which is, its responsibility, is to somehow find all of those data repositories and collect them as they happen so that it can publish them to some kind of event stream. [00:22:41] And then you have the AppView which it's receiving messages from the relay as they happen, and then it can have its own store and index that for search. It can collect them in a way so that it can present them onto a UI. That's sort of thing that's the user facing part I suppose. [00:23:00] Paul: Yeah, that's exactly it. And again, it's, it's actually quite similar to how the web works. If you combine together the relay and the app view, you got all these different, you know, the web works where you got all these different websites, they're hosting their stuff, and then the search engine is going around, aggregating all that data and turning it into a search experience. [00:23:19] Totally the same model. It's just being applied to, more varieties of data, like structured data, like posts and, and replies, follows, likes, all that kinda stuff. And then instead of producing a search application at the end. I mean, it does that too, but it also produces a, uh, you know, timelines and threads and, um, people's profiles and stuff like that. [00:23:41] So it's actually a pretty bog standard way of doing, that's one of the models that we've seen work for large scale decentralized systems. And so we're just transposing it onto something that kind of is more focused towards social applications [00:23:58] Jeremy: So I think I'm tracking that the data repository itself, since it has your decentralized identifier and because the data is cryptographically signed, you know, it's from a specific user. I think the part that I am still not quite sure about is the relays. I, I understand if you run all the data repositories, you know where they are, so you know how to collect the data from them. [00:24:22] But if someone's running another system outside of your organization, how do they find, your data repositories? Or do they have to connect to your relay? What's the intention for that? Data hosts request relays to pull their data [00:24:35] Paul: That logic runs, again, really similar to how search engines find out about websites. So there is actually a way for, one of these, data hosts to contact Relay and say, Hey, I exist. You know, go ahead and get my stuff. And then it'll be up to the relay to decide like if they want it or not. [00:24:52] Right now, generally we're just like, yeah, you know, we, we want it. But as you can imagine, as the thing matures and gets to higher scale, there might be some trust kind of things to worry about, you know? So that's kind of the naive operation that currently exists. But over time as the network gets bigger and bigger, it'll probably involve some more traditional kind of spiraling behaviors because as more relays come into the system, each of these hosts, they're not gonna know who to talk to. Relays can bootstrap who they know about by talking to other relays [00:25:22] Paul: You're trying to start a new relay. What they're gonna do is they're going to discover all of the different users that exist in the system by looking at what data they have to start with. Probably involve a little bit of a manual feeding in at first, whenever I'm starting up a relay, like, okay, there's bluesky's relay. [00:25:39] Lemme just pull what they know. And then I go from there. And then anytime you discover a new user you don't have, you're like, oh, I wanna look them up. Pull them into the relay too. Right. So there's a, pretty straightforward, discovery process that you'll just have to bake into a relay to, to make sure you're calling as much the network as possible. ActivityPub federation vs AT Proto [00:25:57] Jeremy: And so I don't think we've defined the term federation, but maybe you could explain what that is and if that is what this is. [00:26:07] Paul: We are so unsure. [00:26:10] Jeremy: Okay. [00:26:11] Paul: Yeah. This has jammed is up pretty bad. Um, because I think everybody can, everybody pretty strongly agrees that ActivityPub is federation, right? and ActivityPub kind of models itself pretty similarly to email in a way, like the metaphors they use is that there's inboxes and outboxes and, and every ActivityPub server they're standing up the full vertical stack. [00:26:37] They set up, the primary hosting, the views of the data that's happening there. the interface for the application, all of it, pretty traditional, like close service, but then they're kind of using the perimeter. they're making that permeable by sending, exchanging, essentially mailing records to each other, right? [00:26:54] That's their kind of logic of how that works. And that's pretty much in line with, I think, what most people think of with Federation. Whereas what we're doing isn't like that we've cut, instead of having a bunch of vertical stacks communicating horizontally with each other, we kind of sliced in the other direction. [00:27:09] We sliced horizontally into, this microservices mesh and have all the different, like a total mix and match of different microservices between different operators. Is that federation? I don't know. Right. we tried to invent a term, didn't really work, you know, At the moment, we just kind of don't worry about it that much, see what happens, see what the world sort of has to say to us about it. [00:27:36] and beyond that, I don't know. [00:27:42] Jeremy: I think people probably are thinking of something like, say, a Mastodon instance when you're, when you're talking about everything being included, The webpage where you view the posts, the Postgres database that's keeping the messages. [00:28:00] And that same instance it's responsible for basically everything. [00:28:06] Paul: mm-Hmm [00:28:06] Jeremy: And I believe what you're saying is that the difference with, the authenticated transfer protocol, is that the [00:28:15] Paul: AT Protocol, Yep. [00:28:17] Jeremy: And the difference there is that you've, at the protocol level, you've split it up into the data itself, which can be validated completely separately from other parts of the system. [00:28:31] You could have the JSON files on your hard drive and somebody else can have that same JSON file and they would know that who the user is and that these are real things that user posted. That's like a separate part. And then the relay component that looks for all these different repositories that has people's data, that can also be its own independent thing where its job is just to output events. [00:29:04] And that can exist just by itself. It doesn't need the application part, the, the user facing part, it can just be this event stream on itself. and that's the part where it sounds like you can make decisions on who to, um, collect data from. I guess you have to agree that somebody can connect to you and get the users from your data repositories. [00:29:32] And likewise, other people that run relays, they also have to agree to let you pull the users from theirs. [00:29:38] Paul: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. [00:29:41] Jeremy: And so I think the Mastodon example makes sense. And, but I wonder if the underlying ActivityPub protocol forces you to use it in that way, in like a whole full application that talks to another full application. [00:29:55] Or is it more like that's just how people tend to use it and it's not necessarily a characteristic of the protocol. [00:30:02] Paul: Yeah, that's a good question actually. so, you know, generally what I would say is pretty core to the protocol is the expectations about how the services interact with each other. So the mailbox metaphor that's used in ActivityPub, that design, if I reply to you, I'll update my, local database with what I did, and then I'll send a message over to your server saying, Hey, by the way, add this reply. [00:30:34] I did this. And that's how they find out about things. That's how they find out about activity outside of their network. that's the part that as long as you're doing ActivityPub, I suspect you're gonna see reliably happening. That's that, I can say for sure that's a pretty tight requirement. [00:30:50] That's ActivityPub. If you wanted to split it up the way we're talking about, you could, I don't know, I don't know if you necessarily would want to. Because I don't know. That's actually, I think I'd have to dig into their stack a little bit more to see how meaningful that would be. I do know that there's some talk of introducing a similar kind of an aggregation method into the ActivityPub world which I believe they're also calling a relay and to make things even more complicated. [00:31:23] And NOSTR has a concept of a relay. So these are three different protocols that are using this term. I think you could do essentially what a search engine does on any of these things. You could go crawling around for the data, pull them into a fire hose, and then, tap into that aggregation to produce, bigger views of the network. [00:31:41] So that principle can certainly apply anywhere. AT Protocol, I think it's a little bit, we, we focused in so hard from that on that from the get go, we focus really hard on making sure that this, the data is, signed at rest. That's why it's called the authenticated transfer protocol. And that's a nice advantage to have when you're running a relay like this because it means that you don't have to trust the relay. [00:32:08] Like generally speaking, when I look at results from Google, you know, I'm trusting pretty well that they're accurately reflecting what's on the website, which is fine. You know, there's, that's not actually a huge risk or anything. But whenever you're trying to build entire applications and you're using somebody else's relay, you could really run into things where they say like, oh, you know what Paul tweeted the other day, you know, I hate dogs. [00:32:28] They're like, no, I didn't. That's a lie, right? You just sneak in Little lies like that over a while, it becomes a problem. So having the signatures on the data is pretty important. You know, if you're gonna be trying to get people to cooperate, uh, you gotta manage the trust model. I know that ActivityPub does have mechanisms for signed records. Issuers with ActivityPub identifiers [00:32:44] Paul: I don't know how deep they go if they could fully replace that, that utility. and then Mastodon ActivityPub, they also use a different identifier system that they're actually taking a look at DIDs um, right now, I don't know what's gonna happen there. We're, we're totally on board to, you know, give any kind of insight that we got working on 'em. [00:33:06] But at, at the moment, they use I think it's WebFinger based identifiers they look like emails. So you got host names in there and those identifiers are being used in the data records. So you don't get that continuous identifier. They actually do have to do that hey, I moved update your records sort of thing. [00:33:28] And that causes it to, I mean, it works like decently well, but not as well as it could. They got us to the point where it moves your profile over and you update all the folks that were following you so they can update their follow records, but your posts, they're not coming right, because that's too far into that mesh of interlinking records. [00:33:48] There's just no chance. So that's kind of the upper limit on that, it's a different set of choices and trade-offs. You're always kind of asking like, how important is the migration? Does that work out? Anyway, now I'm just kind of digging into differences between the two here. Issues with an identifier that changes and updating old records [00:34:07] Jeremy: So you were saying that with ActivityPub, all of the instances need to be notified that you've changed your identifier but then all of the messages that they had already received. They don't point to the new identifier somehow. [00:34:24] Paul: Yeah. You run into basically just the practicalities of actual engineering with that is what happens, right? Because if you imagine you got a multimillion user social network. They got all their posts. Maybe the user has like, let's say a thousand posts and 10,000 likes. And that, activity can range back three years. [00:34:48] Let's say they changed their identifier, and now you need to change the identifier of all those records. If you're in a traditional system that's already a tall order, you're going back and rewriting a ton of indexes, Anytime somebody replied to you, they have these links to your posts, they're now, you've gotta update the identifiers on all of those things. [00:35:11] You could end up with a pretty significant explosion of rewrites that would have to occur. Now that's, that's tough. If you're in a centralized model. If you're in a decentralized one, it's pretty much impossible because you're now, when you notify all the other servers like, Hey, this, this changed. How successful are all of them at actually updating that, that those, those pointers, it's a good chance that there's things are gonna fall out of correctness. that's just a reality of it. And if, so, if you've got a, if you've got a mutable identifier, you're in trouble for migrations. So the DID is meant to keep it permanent and that ends up being the anchoring point. If you lose control of your DID well, that's it. Managing signing keys by server, paper key reset [00:35:52] Paul: Your, your account's done. We took some pretty traditional approaches to that, uh, where the signing keys get managed by your hosting server instead of like trying to, this may seem like really obvious, but if you're from the decentralization community, we spend a lot of time with blockchains, like, Hey, how do we have the users hold onto their keys? [00:36:15] You know, and the tooling on that is getting better for what it's worth. We're starting to see a lot better key pair management in like Apple's ecosystem and Google's ecosystem, but it's still in the range of like, nah, people lose their keys, you know? So having the servers manage those is important. [00:36:33] Then we have ways of exporting paper keys so that you could kind of adversarially migrate if you wanted to. That was in the early spec we wanted to make sure that this portability idea works, that you can always migrate your accounts so you can export a paper key that can override. [00:36:48] And that was how we figured that out. Like, okay, yeah, we don't have to have everything getting signed by keys that are on the user's devices. We just need these master backup keys that can say, you know what? I'm done with that host. No matter what they say, I'm overriding what they, what they think. and that's how we squared that one. [00:37:06] Jeremy: So it seems like one of the big differences with account migration is that with ActivityPub, when you move to another instance, you have to actually change your identifier. [00:37:20] And with the AT protocol you're actually not allowed to ever change that identifier. And maybe what you're changing is just you have say, some kind of a lookup, like you were saying, you could use a domain name to look that up, get a reference to your decentralized identifier, but your decentralized identifier it can never change. [00:37:47] Paul: It, it, it can't change. Yeah. And it shouldn't need to, you know what I mean? It's really a total disaster kind of situation if that happens. So, you know that it's designed to make sure that doesn't happen in the applications. We use these domain name handles to, to identify folks. And you can change those anytime you want because that's really just a user facing thing. [00:38:09] You know, then in practice what you see pretty often is that you may, if you change hosts, if you're using, we, we give some domains to folks, you know, 'cause like not everybody has their own domain. A lot of people do actually, to our surprise, people actually kind of enjoy doing that. But, a lot of folks are just using like paul.bsky.social as their handle. [00:38:29] And so if you migrated off of that, you probably lose that. Like your, so your handle's gonna change, but you're not losing the followers and stuff. 'cause the internal system isn't using paul.bsky.social, it's using that DID and that DID stays the same. Benefits of domain names, trust signal [00:38:42] Jeremy: Yeah. I thought that was interesting about using the domain names, because when you like you have a lot of users, everybody's got their own sub-domain. You could have however many millions of users. Does that become, does that become an issue at some point? [00:39:00] Paul: Well, it's a funny thing. I mean like the number of users, like that's not really a problem 'cause you run into the same kind of namespace crowding problem that any service is gonna have, right? Like if you just take the subdomain part of it, like the name Paul, like yeah, only, you only get to have one paul.bsky.social. [00:39:15] so that part of like, in terms of the number of users, that part's fine I guess. Uh, as fine as ever. where gets more interesting, of course is like, really kind of around the usability questions. For one, it's, it's not exactly the prettiest to always have that B sky.social in there. If we, if we thought we, if we had some kind of solution to that, we would use it. [00:39:35] But like the reality is that, you know, now we're, we've committed to the domain name approach and some folks, you know, they kind of like, ah, that's a little bit ugly. And we're like, yeah that's life. I guess the plus side though is that you can actually use like TLD the domain. It's like on pfrazee.com. [00:39:53] that starts to get more fun. it can actually act as a pretty good trust signal in certain scenarios. for instance, well-known domain names like nytimes.com, strong authentication right there, we don't even need a blue check for it. Uh, similarly the .gov, domain name space is tightly regulated. [00:40:14] So you actually get a really strong signal out of that. Senator Wyden is one of our users and so he's, I think it's wyden.senate.gov and same thing, strong, you know, strong identity signal right there. So that's actually a really nice upside. So that's like positives, negatives. [00:40:32] That trust signal only works so far. If somebody were to make pfrazee.net, then that can be a bit confusing. People may not be paying attention to .com vs .net, so it's not, I don't wanna give the impression that, ah, we've solved blue checks. It's a complicated and multifaceted situation, but, it's got some juice. [00:40:54] It's also kinda nice too, 'cause a lot of folks that are doing social, they're, they've got other stuff that they're trying to promote, you know? I'm pretty sure that, uh, nytimes would love it if you went to their website. And so tying it to their online presence so directly like that is a really nice kind of feature of it. [00:41:15] And tells a I think a good story about what we're trying to do with an open internet where, yeah, everybody has their space on the internet where they can do whatever they want on that. And that's, and then thethese social profiles, it's that presence showing up in a shared space. It's all kind of part of the same thing. [00:41:34] And that that feels like a nice kind of thing to be chasing, you know? And it also kind of speaks well to the naming worked out for us. We chose AT Protocol as a name. You know, we back acronymed our way into that one. 'cause it was a @ simple sort of thing. But like, it actually ended up really reflecting the biggest part of it, which is that it's about putting people's identities at the front, you know, and make kind of promoting everybody from a second class identity that's underneath Twitter or Facebook or something like that. [00:42:03] Up into. Nope, you're freestanding. You exist as a person independently. Which is what a lot of it's about. [00:42:12] Jeremy: Yeah, I think just in general, not necessarily just for bluesky, if people had more of an interest in getting their own domain, that would be pretty cool if people could tie more of that to something you basically own, right? [00:42:29] I mean, I guess you're leasing it from ICANN or whatever, but, [00:42:33] yeah, rather than everybody having an @Gmail, Outlook or whatever they could actually have something unique that they control more or less. [00:42:43] Paul: Yeah. And we, we actually have a little experimental service for registering domain names that we haven't integrated into the app yet because we just kind of wanted to test it out and, and kind of see what that appetite is for folks to register domain names way higher than you'd think we did that early on. [00:43:01] You know, it's funny when you're coming from decentralization is like an activist space, right? Like it's a group of people trying to change how this tech works. And sometimes you're trying to parse between what might come off as a fascination of technologists compared to what people actually care about. [00:43:20] And it varies, you know, the domain name thing to a surprising degree, folks really got into that. We saw people picking that up almost straight away. More so than certainly we ever predicted. And I think that's just 'cause I guess it speaks to something that people really get about the internet at this point. [00:43:39] Which is great. We did a couple of other things that are similar and we saw varied levels of adoption on them. We had similar kinds of user facing, opening up of the system with algorithms and with moderation. And those have both been pretty interesting in and of themselves. Custom feed algorithms [00:43:58] Paul: So with algorithms, what we did was we set that up so that anybody can create a new feed algorithm. And this was kind of one of the big things that you run into whenever you use the app. If you wanted to create a new kind of for you feed you can set up a service somewhere that's gonna tap into that fire hose, right? [00:44:18] And then all it needs to do is serve a JSON endpoint. That's just a list of URLs, but like, here's what should be in that feed. And then the bluesky app will pick that up and, and send that, hydrate in the content of the posts and show that to folks. I wanna say this is a bit of a misleading number and I'll explain why but I think there's about 35,000 of these feeds that have been created. [00:44:42] Now, the reason it's little misleading is that, I mean, not significantly, but it's not everybody went, sat down in their IDE and wrote these things. Essentially one of our users created, actually multiple of our users made little platforms for building these feeds, which is awesome. That's the kinda thing you wanna see because we haven't gotten around to it. [00:44:57] Our app still doesn't give you a way to make these things. But they did. And so lots of, you know, there it is. Cool. Like, one, one person made a kind of a combinatorial logic thing that's like visual almost like scratch, it's like, so if it has this hashtag and includes these users, but not those users, and you're kind of arranging these blocks and that constructs the feed and then probably publish it on your profile and then folks can use it, you know? [00:45:18] And um, so that has been I would say fairly successful. Except, we had one group of hackers do put in a real effort to make a replacement for you feed, like magic algorithmic feed kind of thing. And then they kind of kept up going for a while and then ended up giving up on it. Most of what we see are actually kind of weird niche use cases for feeds. [00:45:44] You get straightforward ones, like content oriented ones like a cat feed, politics feed, things like that. It's great, some of those are using ML detection, so like the cat feed is ML detection, so sometimes you get like a beaver in there, but most of the time it's a cat. And then we got some ones that are kind of a funny, like change in the dynamic of freshness. [00:46:05] So, uh, or or selection criteria, things that you wouldn't normally see. Um, but because they can do whatever they want, you know, they try it out. So like the quiet posters ended up being a pretty successful one. And that one just shows people you're following that don't post that often when they do just those folks. [00:46:21] It ended up being, I use that one all the time because yeah, like they get lost in the noise. So it's like a way to keep up with them. Custom moderation and labeling [00:46:29] Paul: The moderation one, that one's a a real interesting situation. What we did there essentially we wanted to make sure that the moderation system was capable of operating across different apps so that they can share their work, so to speak. [00:46:43] And so we created what we call labeling. And labeling is a metadata layer that exists over the network. Doesn't actually live in the normal data repositories. It uses a completely different synchronization because a lot of these labels are getting produced. It's just one of those things where the engineering characteristics of the labels is just too different from the rest of the system. [00:47:02] So we created a separate synchronization for this, and it's really kind of straightforward. It's, here's a URL and here's a string saying something like NSFW or Gore, or you know, whatever. then those get merged onto the records brought down by the client and then the client, you know, based on the user's preferences. [00:47:21] We'll put like warning screens up, hide it, stuff like that. So yeah, these label streams can then, you know, anybody that's running a moderation service can, you know, are publishing these things and so anybody can subscribe to 'em. And you get that kind of collaborative thing we're always trying to do with this. [00:47:34] And we had some users set up moderation services and so then as an end user you find it, it looks like a profile in the app and you subscribe to it and you configure it and off you go. That one has had probably the least amount of adoption throughout all of 'em. It's you know, moderation. [00:47:53] It's a sticky topic as you can imagine, challenging for folks. These moderation services, they do receive reports, you know, like whenever I'm reporting a post, I choose from all my moderation services who I wanna report this to. what has ended up happening more than being used to actually filter out like subjective stuff is more kind of like either algorithmic systems or what you might call informational. [00:48:21] So the algorithmic ones are like, one of the more popular ones is a thing that's looking for, posts from other social networks. Like this screenshot of a Reddit post or a Twitter post or a Facebook post. Because, which you're kinda like, why, you know, but the thing is some folks just get really tired of seeing screenshots from the other networks. [00:48:40] 'cause often it's like, look what this person said. Can you believe it? You know, it's like, ah. Okay, I've had enough. So one of our users aendra made a moderate service that just runs an ML that detects it, labels it, and then folks that are tired of it, they subscribe to it and they're just hide it, you know? [00:48:57] And so it's like a smart filter kind of thing that they're doing. you know, hypothetically you could do that for things like spiders, you know, like you've got arachniphobia, things like that. that's like a pretty straightforward, kind of automated way of doing it. Which takes a lot of the spice, you know, outta out of running moderation. [00:49:15] So that users have been like, yeah, yeah, okay, we can do that. [00:49:20] Those are user facing ways that we tried to surface the. Decentralized principle, right? And make take advantage of how this whole architecture can have this kind of a pluggability into it. Users can self host now [00:49:33] Paul: But then really at the end of the day, kind of the important core part of it is those pieces we were talking about before, the hosting, the relay and the, the applications themselves, having those be swappable in completely. so we tend to think of those as kind of ranges of infrastructure into application and then into particular client side stuff. [00:49:56] So a lot of folks right now, for instance, they're making their own clients to the application and those clients are able to do customizations, add features, things like that, as you might expect, [00:50:05] but most of them are not running their own backend. They're just using our backend. But at any point, it's right there for you. You know, you can go ahead and, and clone that software and start running the backend. If you wanted to run your own relay, you could go ahead and go all the way to that point. [00:50:19] You know, if you wanna do your own hosting, you can go ahead and do that. Um, it's all there. It's really just kind of a how much effort your project really wants to take. That's the kind of systemically important part. That's the part that makes sure that the overall mission of de monopolizing, social media online, that's where that really gets enforced. [00:50:40] Jeremy: And so someone has their own data repository with their own users and their own relay. they can request that your relay collect the information from their own data repositories. And that's, that's how these connections get made. [00:50:58] Paul: Yeah. And, and we have a fair number of those already. Fair number of, we call those the self hosters right? And we got I wanna say 75 self hoster going right now, which is, you know, love to see that be more, but it's, really the folks that if you're running a service, you probably would end up doing that. [00:51:20] But the folks that are just doing it for themselves, it's kind of the, the nerdiest of the nerds over there doing that. 'cause it doesn't end up showing itself in the, in the application at all. Right? It's totally abstracted away. So it, that, that one's really about like, uh, measure your paranoia kind of thing. [00:51:36] Or if you're just proud of the self-hosting or, or curious, you know, that that's kind of where that sits at the moment. AT Protocol beyond bluesky [00:51:42] Jeremy: We haven't really touched on the fact that there's this underlying protocol and everything we've been discussing has been centered around the bluesky social network where you run your own, instance of the relay and the data repositories with the purpose of talking to bluesky, but the protocol itself is also intended to be used for other uses, right? [00:52:06] Paul: Yeah. It's generic. The data types are set up in a way that anybody can build new data types in the system. there's a couple that have already begun, uh, front page, which is kind of a hacker news clone. There's Smoke Signals, which is a events app. There's Blue Cast, which is like a Twitter spaces, clubhouse kind of thing. [00:52:29] Those are the folks that are kind of willing to trudge into the bleeding edge and deal with some of the rough edges there for pretty I think, obvious reasons. A lot of our work gets focused in on making sure that the bluesky app and that use case is working correctly. [00:52:43] But we are starting to round the corner on getting to a full kind of how to make alternative applications state. If you go to the atproto.com, there's a kind of a introductory tutorial where that actually shows that whole stack and how it's done. So it's getting pretty close. There's a couple of still things that we wanna finish up. [00:53:04] jeremy so in a way you can almost think of it as having an eventually consistent data store on the network, You can make a traditional web application with a relational database, and the source of truth can actually be wherever that data repository is stored on the network. [00:53:24] paul Yeah, that's exactly, it is an eventually consistent system. That's exactly right. The source of truth is there, is their data repo. And that relational database that you might be using, I think the best way to think about it is like secondary indexes or computed indexes, right? They, reflect the source of truth. [00:53:43] Paul: This is getting kind of grandiose. I don't tend to poses in these terms, but it is almost like we're trying to have an OS layer at a protocol level. It's like having your own [00:53:54] Network wide database or network-wide file system, you know, these are the kind of facilities you expect out of a platform like an os And so the hope would be that this ends up getting that usage outside of just the initial social, uh, app, like what we're doing here. [00:54:12] If it doesn't end up working out that way, if this ends up, you know, good for the Twitter style use case, the other one's not so much, and that's fine too. You know, that's, that's our initial goal, but we, we wanted to make sure to build it in a way that like, yeah, there's evolve ability to, it keeps, it, keeps it, make sure that you're getting kinda the most utility you can out of it. Peer-to-peer and the difficulty of federated queries [00:54:30] Jeremy: Yeah, I can see some of the parallels to some of the decentralized stuff that I, I suppose people are still working on, but more on the peer-to-peer side, where the idea was that I can have a network host this data. but, and in this case it's a network of maybe larger providers where they could host a bunch of people's data versus just straight peer to peer where everybody has to have a piece of it. [00:54:57] And it seems like your angle there was really the scalability part. [00:55:02] Paul: It was the scalability part. And there's great work happening in peer-to-peer. There's a lot of advances on it that are still happening. I think really the limiter that you run into is running queries against aggregations of data. Because you can get the network, you know, BitTorrent sort of proved that you can do distributed open horizontal scaling of hosting. [00:55:29] You know, that basic idea of, hey, everybody's got a piece and you sync it from all these different places. We know you can do things like that. What nobody's been able to really get into a good place is running, queries across large data sets. In the model like that, there's been some research in what is, what's called federated queries, which is where you're sending a query to multiple different nodes and asking them to fulfill as much of it as they can and then collating the results back. But it didn't work that well. That's still kind of an open question and until that is in a place where it can like reliably work and at very large scales, you're just gonna need a big database somewhere that does give the properties that you need. You need these big indexes. And once we were pretty sure of that requirement, then from there you start asking, all right, what else about the system [00:56:29] Could we make easier if we just apply some more traditional techniques and merge that in with the peer-to-peer ideas? And so key hosting, that's an obvious one. You know, availability, let's just have a server. It's no big deal. But you're trying to, you're trying to make as much of them dumb as possible. [00:56:47] So that they have that easy replaceability. Moderation challenges [00:56:51] Jeremy: Earlier you were talking a a little bit about the moderation tools that people could build themselves. There was some process where people could label posts and then build their own software to determine what a feed should show per a person. [00:57:07] Paul: Mm-Hmm [00:57:07] Jeremy: But, but I think before that layer for the platform itself, there's a base level of moderation that has to happen. [00:57:19] Paul: yeah. [00:57:20] Jeremy: And I wonder if you could speak to, as the app has grown, how that's handled. [00:57:26] Paul: Yeah. the, you gotta take some requirements in moderation pretty seriously to start. And with decentralization. It sometimes that gets a little bit dropped. You need to have systems that can deal with questions about CSAM. So you got those big questions you gotta answer and then you got stuff that's more in the line of like, alright, what makes a good platform? [00:57:54] What kind of guarantees are we trying to give there? So just not legal concerns, but you know, good product experience concerns. That's something we're in the realm of like spam and and abusive behavior and things like that. And then you get into even more fine grain of like what is a person's subjective preference and how can they kind of make their thing better? [00:58:15] And so you get a kind of a telescoping level of concerns from the really big, the legal sort of concerns. And then the really small subjective preference kind of concerns. And that actually that telescoping maps really closely to the design of the system as well. Where the further you get up in the kind of the, in that legal concern territory, you're now in core infrastructure. [00:58:39] And then you go from infrastructure, which is the relay down into the application, which is kind of a platform and then down into the client. And that's where we're having those labelers apply. And each of them, as you kind of move closer to infrastructure, the importance of the decision gets bigger too. [00:58:56] So you're trying to do just legal concerns with the relay right? Stuff that you objectively can, everybody's in agreement like Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, no bigs don't include that. The reason is that at the relay level, you're anybody that's using your relay, they depend on the decisions you're making, that sort of selection you're doing, any filtering you're doing, they don't get a choice after that. [00:59:19] So you wanna try to keep that focus really on legal concerns and doing that well. so that applications that are downstream of it can, can make their choices. The applications themselves, you know, somebody can run a parallel I guess you could call it like a parallel platform, so we got bluesky doing the microblogging use case, other people can make an application doing the microblogging use case. So there's, there's choice that users can easily switch, easily enough switch between, it's still a big choice. [00:59:50] So we're operating that in many ways. Like any other app nowadays might do it. You've got policies, you know, for what's acceptable on the network. you're still trying to keep that to be as, you know, objective as possible, make it fair, things like that. You want folks to trust your T&S team. Uh, but from the kind of systemic decentralization question, you get to be a little bit more opinionated. [01:00:13] Down all the way into the client with that labeling system where you can, you know, this is individuals turning on and off preferences. You can be as opinionated as you want on that letter. And that's how we have basically approached this. And in a lot of ways, it really just comes down to, in the day to day, you're the moderation, the volume of moderation tasks is huge. [01:00:40] You don't actually have high stakes moderation decisions most of the time. Most of 'em are you know pretty straightforward. Shouldn't have done that. That's gotta go. You get a couple every once in a while that are a little spicier or a policy that's a little spicier. And it probably feels pretty common to end users, but that just speaks to how much moderation challenges how the volume of reports and problems that come through. [01:01:12] And we don't wanna make it so that the system is seized up, trying to decentralize itself. You know, it needs to be able to operate day to day. What you wanna make is, you know, back pressure, you know, uh, checks on that power so that if an application or a platform does really start to go down the wrong direction on moderation, then people can have this credible exit. [01:01:36] This way of saying, you know what, that's a problem. We're moving from here. And somebody else can come in with different policies that better fit people's people's expectations about what should be done at, at these levels. So yeah, it's not about taking away authority, it's about checking authority, you know, kind of a checks and balances mentality. [01:01:56] Jeremy: And high level, 'cause you saying how there's such a high volume of, of things that you know what it is, you'd know you wanna remove it, but there's just so much of it. So is there, do you have automated tools to label these things? Do you have a team of moderators? Do they have to understand all the different languages that are coming through your network? [01:02:20] Yes, yes, yes and yes. Yeah. You use every tool at your disposal to, to stay on top of it. cause you're trying to move as fast as you can, folks. The problems showing up, you know, the slower you are to respond to it, the, the more irritating it is to folks. Likewise, if you make a, a missed call, if somebody misunderstands what's happening, which believe me, is sometimes just figuring out what the heck is going on is hard. [01:02:52] Paul: People's beefs definitely surface up to the moderation misunderstanding or wrong application. Moderators make mistakes so you're trying to maintain a pretty quick turnaround on this stuff. That's tough. And you, especially when to move fast on some really upsetting content that can make its way through, again, illegal stuff, for instance, but more videos, stuff like that, you know, it's a real problem. [01:03:20] So yeah, you're gotta be using some automated systems as well. Clamping down on bot rings and spam. You know, you can imagine that's gotten a lot harder thanks to LLMs just doing text analysis by dumb statistics of what they're talking about that doesn't even work anymore. [01:03:41] 'cause the, the LLMs are capable of producing consistently varied responses while still achieving the same goal of plugging a online betting site of some kind, you know? So we do use kind of dumb heuristic systems for when it works, but boy, that won't work for much longer. [01:04:03] And we've already got cases where it's, oh boy, so the moderation's in a dynamic place to say the least right now with, with LLMs coming in, it was tough before and

The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.' The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. (Acts 21.18-26, NIV)

Then Paul answered, ‘Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.' When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, ‘The Lord's will be done.' After this, we started on our way up to Jerusalem. Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and brought us to the home of Mnason, where we were to stay. He was a man from Cyprus and one of the early disciples. When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: ‘You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21.13-20, NIV.)

Istrouma Baptist Church (BR) Sep 1, 2024 ========== September 1 | Acts Welcome! We're glad you've joined us today for our Sunday morning worship service! For more information about Istrouma, go to istrouma.org or contact us at info@istrouma.org. We glorify God by making disciples of all nations. ========== Connection Card https://istrouma.org/myinfo September 1, 2024 - Matt Cate ‭‭Acts‬ ‭21‬:‭3‬-‭26‬‬ After sighting Cyprus and passing to the south of it, we sailed on to Syria. We landed at Tyre, where our ship was to unload its cargo. We sought out the disciples there and stayed with them seven days. Through the Spirit they urged Paul not to go on to Jerusalem. When it was time to leave, we left and continued on our way. All of them, including wives and children, accompanied us out of the city, and there on the beach we knelt to pray. After saying goodbye to each other, we went aboard the ship, and they returned home. We continued our voyage from Tyre and landed at Ptolemais, where we greeted the brothers and sisters and stayed with them for a day. Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. After we had been there a number of days, a prophet named Agabus came down from Judea. Coming over to us, he took Paul's belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, “The Holy Spirit says, ‘In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.' ” When we heard this, we and the people there pleaded with Paul not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, “Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” When he would not be dissuaded, we gave up and said, “The Lord's will be done.” After this, we started on our way up to Jerusalem. Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and brought us to the home of Mnason, where we were to stay. He was a man from Cyprus and one of the early disciples. When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. 1. Paul had COURAGE in the CONVICTIONS that the Holy Spirit moved in him. (20:22-23) 2. There will always be others who DON'T UNDERSTAND your convictions. a. First in TYRE (21:4) b. Then in CAESAREA, where Agabus provides VISUAL AIDS. (21:10-12) 3. The PURPOSE of his CONVICTIONS: a. To REPORT to James and the elders what GOD HAD DONE among the GENTILES. (21:20) b. To give the OFFERING from the Gentile belivers. 4. Paul demonstrates "ALL THINGS TO ALL PEOPLE" mentality. (1 Cor. 9:19-23) ‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭9‬:‭19‬-‭23‬‬ Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. Want to receive weekly announcements in your inbox each week? https://istrouma.org/email Give Online Text ISTROUMA IBC to 73256 or go to: https://istrouma.org/give Our Website https://istrouma.org

Paul: You know, you moved up here and one of the first things you did as a teacher in Prince George - was it UNBC at the time when you moved here – the University of Northern British Columbia? Barry: No, it was the College of New Caledonia. Paul: And you were teaching English in a welding class? BM: Yup, it was a technical school. We moved into a technical school before they built the college. PN: And this is 1969? BM: Yeah, 1969. But in that first year here we taught out of the high school. We'd start teaching at three in the afternoon after the high school was out, so we were a night school. We were kind of interlopers. The high school teachers thought, “oh, here are these smarty pants academics coming in and taking over the functions that we've provided!”

Episode 495 – Stay the Course   Today we have Robbie. He is 28 years old from Palm Springs, CA and took his last drink on January 4th, 2024.   Sponsors for this episode:   Visit Better Help today to get 10% off your first month   Visit Sober Link to sign up and receive $50 off a device.   [4:28] Thoughts from Paul:   You are listening to this podcast because you've correctly identified that alcohol is what is holding you back. You see that alcohol isn't delivering what was promised.   Your inner guidance to quit drinking, to explore what that would look like is correct. Stay the course. You're inner voice is spot on. You are on the right path.   Paul shares his struggles with finding homeostasis after welcoming his child into the world. He feels his nervous system is stuck in a level of fight or flight. While he is feeling a lot of emotions around this, he reminds himself to stay the course. So, for all of those parents who are seeking sobriety – we will stay the course with you.   What does staying the course look like when we depart from alcohol? Maybe it is tuning in to the podcast each week or logging just one more day alcohol-free. Maybe you are working through a quit lit book and the voice is saying it wasn't that bad. Keep reading. Keep listening. Keep showing up. We are on the right path and it's paramount that we stick together.   [10:18] Paul introduces Robbie:   Robbie lives in Palm Springs, CA. He enjoys tennis, pickleball, golf and interior design.   Robbie says he didn't drink much growing up and only started to drink while studying abroad in Australia. He was able to drink socially with little issue. The drinking became more frequent after Robbie had graduated college and was living alone in Denver. He found himself at happy hours and then returning home to continue to drink. At the time, Robbie knew that his drinking wasn't normal but chalked it up to being a phase.   During COVID lockdowns, Robbie ended up moving back to Montana to stay with his parents. Drinking was a great excuse since he didn't have obligations. After moving back to his apartment, his drinking began earlier in the day over time. He was starting to have physical repercussions from drinking heavily and decided to try and moderate or cut back. One event found him going to the liquor store for “hair of the dog” and on the way back he ended up passing out. Robbie woke up in an ambulance on the way to the ER and had no idea who called them. This didn't deter Robbie from drinking, he just knew that if he tried to quit again, he would need to have medical detox.   On a trip to Montana visiting family, Robbie ended up getting a DUI right down the street from his parents' house. After his father picked him up from jail, he knew the cat was out of the bag.   At Christmas, Robbie decided to stay in Denver and told his mother that he was spending time with his girlfriend but ended up staying home. When his mother found out he wasn't with her, see felt driven to send Robbie an email expressing concerns about his health. He felt a lot of relief when he read it and knew that he was going to be able to get help now since his family was aware of his problem.   Robbie went to Betty Ford and stayed there for 21 days. It was more social than Robbie was accustomed to, but he grew very close with the people he was there with. After a few step-down programs, Robbie still goes to Betty Ford frequently and while AA isn't his favorite modality, he enjoys trying new meetings and keeps an open mind to all things recovery. He utilizes meetings, podcasts and gratitude lists in recovery and when he has a craving, he has found box-breathing helps him a lot.   What has sobriety made possible for Robbie: reconnecting with and loving himself.   Robbie's parting piece of guidance: pick up the 100-pound phone, ask for help and you'll be really surprised by people's response to that.     Recovery Elevator Go big, because eventually we all go home. I love you guys.   RE on Instagram Recovery Elevator YouTube Sobriety Tracker iTunes   

Can we keep up with AI? Paul Foster, CEO of the Esports Federation, dives into the legal implications of artificial intelligence. Gamers have a unique familiarity with artificial intel. Explore how AI is transforming game design, content creation, brand promotion and much more. Along with entertainment/media lawyer Bryan Tan of Reed Smith's Singapore office, Foster discusses the unique ways AI is enabling gamers to monetize their skills.  ----more---- Transcript: Intro: Hello and welcome to Tech Law Talks, a podcast brought to you by Reed Smith's Emerging Technologies Group. In each episode of this podcast, we will discuss cutting-edge issues on technology, data, and the law. We will provide practical observations on a wide variety of technology and data topics to give you quick and actionable tips to address the issues you are dealing with every day.  Bryan: Welcome to Tech Law Talks and our new series on artificial intelligence. Over the coming months, we'll explore the key challenges and opportunities with the rapidly evolving AI landscape. Today, we will focus on AI in the interesting world of esports. And we have together with us today, Mr. Paul Foster, who is the CEO of the Global Esports Federation. Good morning, Paul.  Paul: Good evening, Bryan. It's nice to be with you, coming from California.  Bryan: And I'm coming to you from Singapore, but we are all connected in one world. Today, we are here to talk about AI and esports. But before we start, I wanted to talk about you and to share what you were doing before AI and how that has changed after AI has now become a big thing.  Paul: Thanks, Bryan. Yeah. So I come from originally from Sydney, Australia, and I was from my background is really 20 years in the Olympic movement. So I started at the Sydney 2000 Olympics. So I started about three years before the Olympics, worked for the Olympics for about 20 years, so traditional sports, and then moved to esports and opened or founded the Global Esports Federation in 2019. And of course, we all know what happened four months after that, Bryan, with COVID and the pandemic that really closed a lot of traditional sport. And so esports really took off. So it's definitely been a very, very exciting and accelerating journey these last couple of years.  Bryan: Great. So you've kind of gotten into esports after a background in sports. And it's interesting you mentioned 2019 because we also know that somewhere around 2022, the end of 2022, just as the pandemic was sorting itself out. Artificial intelligence, primarily generative artificial intelligence, then began to capture the imagination of people. And the question here, I guess, is maybe we're talking to converted, but esports is obviously one of the most technologically advanced and clued in online ecosystems, communities. How has artificial intelligence impacted esports and is that a positive or negative thing?  Paul: You're absolutely right, Bryan. I think one of the things that I like to say is that we're living in what I consider to be one of the most exciting times in the history of humanity. The reason I say that is because of the convergence of all these incredibly powerful technologies at exactly the same time, at the very early dawn of AI. AI and I think it's something that we should reflect on because I think many people talk about AI as if we're already in the middle of the cycle and I think my position is that we're at the very early dawn, maybe even the pre-dawn of AI. I did some postgraduate studies in machine learning and AI so it's a passion project of mine, something I'd love to think about and I was recently at the global summit on AI with the International Telecommunications Union in Geneva and had a chance to sit with the leaders group. There was 30,000 people attending, Bryan, which is a big number of people showing the interest from all over the world. But there was a leaders group convened to look at policymaking. And in a sense, there was this feeling that industry has been rapidly growing and expanding almost at a pace or a cadence that is hard to sort of register in a sense. And then policymakers and particularly governments and others are trying to sort of catch up in a sense and and try to get in front of that. As you know Bryan we're very strong partners with UNESCO, the United Nations Education Science and Cultural Organization, as well as the international telecommunications union so we're also contributing to their thinking and bringing our community into the discussion one of the things that could be interesting for our listeners is that it's true what Bryan said is that our community, which is roughly in the range of 18 to 34-year-olds, are early adopters of technology. And one of the things that might be interesting is that gamers and people who play electronic sports and games have always been exposed to artificial intelligence in some form, even very, very early form. And so it's not a surprise to me that the adoption of of artificial intelligence and the interest in artificial intelligence in some ways has been really accepted by the esports community in the gaming community and as you also said Bryan you know this this demographic 18 to 34 is really the heart of what we call Gen Z or Gen and then now we're seeing Gen Alpha of course the next generation starting high school but what we also call this and some people widely call this generation is actually Gen T. Generation around around technologies and the early acceptance of that. And I can talk a little bit more about some of the applications for esports if that's interesting.  Bryan: No, I think that's interesting. And I think in particular, I think what will be interesting to hear is some of your own visions about what the future of AI and esports could be like. What does it promise to the esports community? What can they kind of look forward to? How do you see that going?  Paul: Yeah I think thanks for the question I think that it's um again I think there's the the possibilities are limitless and we're really at the beginning the early time about this and when I speak for example recently to colleagues and friends at companies such as open ai and others that I speak to every day there's a true interest around this particularly around the the creative economy and how we'll create games in the future and there's three things Bryan that I thought I'd mentioned, which is really the use of AI in terms of teams and players' preparation, the fact that we can have quicker and more efficient, I call it, you know, one of the great benefits, one of the things I've learned in my studies is that it needs to be human-focused and human-centric. And we're also, at the Global League Sports Federation, we support the UNESCO's position on the creation of ethical AI. And what that really talks about is human-focused because it's human-centered. And so one of the things I think is really interesting for our community is that they'll have quicker access to statistics, to analytics, to data. So they'll be able to, if you think about esports as a competitive sport or as a competitive event, any preparation that you can have to prepare you to have better results and better preparation will ultimately, should ultimately provide for a better outcome for you as a competitor, right? So that's number one. The second thing is that really what we can do for the creative economy, which is absolutely fascinating, Bryan, in esports, the whole economy around or the whole community around creators and content creators and people that really bring esports and bring it alive. Is that we'll be able to have automatically created clips and reels and analytics. So in real time, things like in pre-AI, we would have had to wait for editing, Bryan. We would have had to wait for editing. it might have taken hours or days and now that can happen in seconds so for and so that's fascinating and then the third thing so team preparation creative economy and then the third thing really talks around the economics of gaming and around sponsorship and value-based identity so that in the future our sponsors and our partners that are so important for the thriving nation and the the sustainability of gaming and esports will also be able to use AI to have greater analytics and greater awareness of their brand values, to actually understand the value of their brand. A very simple example is we can use AI to track how many times a certain brand was visible on a jersey or in an audience. We'll be able to use AI to actually track it in real time. Whereas again, Bryan, in the past, we would have had to look through video files and actually count it manually. And I remember doing that. I mean, another example I'll give you is I remember but not that long ago in my work at the Olympic Games, I literally remember installing what we used to call video walls. So walls of not even a video screen, but 12 video screens or 16, I think they were, 4x4 screens to be able to look at every venue at once. And when I think about that now, that seems like a long time ago, but it wasn't a long time ago. I mean, within the last 10 or 12 years, that was still our reality. And now we can use AI to capture that data, to give us the same results in real time across teams, across creators and across partners.  Bryan: Okay, thank you for that. I think three very concrete areas that we can look forward to as an esports community. Interestingly, you also mentioned the regulators, the governments trying to keep in touch with the development of AI. Yes. And it sounded as if it was a bit of a struggle for them. Do you think there are any big concerns about the deployment of AI esports that we should be kind of aware of and maybe try to avoid?  Paul: Yeah, I think it's really this notion about catching up, right? How do you catch up with something that's evolving every day and every hour of every day at a speed that's really difficult to contain? And also two schools of thought, really, which is one school of thought, which I remember, Bryan, I think Sam Altman from OpenAI recently said it. And he said, look, we're so busy and this is running so fast and so powerful, we'll come back and we'll get back to that later. Like we're off, you know, creating these incredibly strong and powerful platforms. We'll have to come back to those matters at a later stage. And it was interesting because when I was last couple of weeks ago in Geneva, you had policymakers, governments, ministers, etc., whose role was to make sure that the frameworks were established around implementing the framework on ethical AI. Were really struggling with this reality of being able to just, I mean, literally physically struggling with this reality of trying to get ahead of the knowledge, not only the knowledge, but also the policy work that needed to be put in place, the frameworks, the regulations, and then rolling that out across industry. At the same time, you have technology firms and particularly firms with specialization in AI, and you've seen the incredible value chain skyrocketing in recent months, really racing ahead. And yet you've got policymakers trying to get their hands around this and trying to even understand it. You've got the same challenges in academia, don't you, Bryan, with academia also trying to create curricula that by the time it's published, we may already be behind the eight ball in terms of where AI has taken us. So I think the thing that I would talk about is the concern I would have is the ethical side of AI because, you know, and keeping it human focused and in the best interest of humanity, meaning that really what the benefits are, the focus of benefits should be around making our lives more efficient, effective and more equitable. And there is a risk of course within AI that it can because of prejudice that is potentially built into the ai itself that it could continue to manifest that across the community and that's something that's difficult to get ahead of unless it's created with that lens at the very beginning.  Bryan: No i think that's that's absolutely correct it's uh it's a good reminder that this is technology we're dealing with, and technology can be something that's used for the good of humanity, but it can also be abused. And we have to keep in mind that the technology is there only for the benefit of mankind, like you said, and to keep that human centricity always in focus as AI is applied to esports. Okay, so last question, I promise you, Paul, as CEO of Global Esports Federation, what would you wish for the future of esports? And maybe just to make it interesting, on two spectrums, one, a more realistic expectation, and the second one, a moonshot. If your wish can be granted, what would your wish for esports be?  Paul: What a great question. Thanks, Bryan. I love that opportunity. Well, Well, the thing that's so interesting in esports and gaming is that anything that was a moonshot about two weeks ago is now already a reality. It moves so fast. So when you were mentioning a moonshot, I was thinking about the Olympics. And I'll talk about that in a moment because that would have been considered a moonshot just a few months ago, if not years ago. But what I think the future is, is the globalization of esports as a source of incredibly inclusive, powerful, evocative entertainment, right? So just as you have traditional sport and just as you have, for example, in the United States, you have the proliferation of leagues and professional sports. It's coming into view that you'll have very significant value and be able to really create a very sustainable living as an economic means through esports. Not only as a player winning significant prize money, but also as a content creator, as a game developer, as a marketeer, as an event organizer, as an academic. There's tons of opportunities. opportunities and in fact Bryan I was speaking with some friends of mine who are attorneys actually and it surprises me because traditionally I would talk to attorneys and then through conversation it comes out that they're really passionate about gaming and now maybe they specialize around being with illegal expertise in terms of intellectual property rights or different aspects of it and this also I wanted to share that with you Bryan because I thought that was interesting that even in a traditional professional, such as the practice of law. There's now a lot of interest in this field as well. What does that mean? That means that we get to manifest our lives how we wish them to be manifested. In the past, if I wanted to go into event management, I would have to do a certain angle. Now I can do that with inside esports. If I wanted to be in communications and global media, I might have had to do that in public relations, or in traditional luxury goods, for example, or consumer products. Now I can do it inside esports. So I think the future is extremely bright and relatively limitless in terms of being able to manifest my career, finding something I want to do in my profession, my skills, but be able to do it in something that I love doing. And that's a blessing, I think, Bryan, that very few of us, so you and I, that has happened in our lifetime, that we're able to actually have the life that we want, create professional professional conditions we want, earn a living of that by doing it in that field that we love. The moonshot which you've challenged me on, I was so proud having come from the Olympic movement in my hometown of Sydney and now seeing the reality of the Olympic eSports Games, which was just announced by the IOC a couple of weeks ago and then rapidly evolving. And how interesting is this? At the Paris 2024 Olympic Games, it seems that we'll see an announcement of the Olympic eSports Games itself, agreed by the IOC, confirmed by the IOC. And so one of the things i think is fascinating if you think about Olympic sport traditional sport, it took golf 121 years to come back onto the Olympic program and esports in global esports federation was as you said Bryan, founded in 2019 here we are just four years later not only is it inside the Olympic movement but there's actually a separate IP created called Olympic esports games. If we think about that for a moment, the IOC traditionally had their Olympic Games as their main IP. Yes, Winter Games. Yes, Youth Games. But now we have the Olympic Esports Games as a separate IP. And what's even interesting at the recent press release I read is that it said a whole new division, a whole new structure will be created at the IOC. Rather than trying to fit it into traditional models, a whole new structure will be created. it. So this was a moonshot. And I think that this will be fascinating in terms of how we see that evolve and how you see a traditional sports organization just a couple of years ago, really being a long way away from today. And in those very short years with the Global Esports Federation staging our Commonwealth Esports Championships, the European Esports Championships, the Pan American Esports Championships, and now seeing the evolution at the Olympic Esports Games, What an incredible opportunity that is for athletes, creators and community right around the world.  Bryan: Thank you for sharing that. And I think that's a great statement to make that what was yesterday's moonshot is today's reality in a fast-paced world that evolves because of technology. Thank you again for sharing with us your thoughts, Paul. I think it's been greatly exciting. We look forward to a great future in esports. And once again, thank you for joining us in this series.  Paul: Thank you, Bryan. Thanks very much, everyone.  Outro: Tech Law Talks is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. For more information about Reed Smith's emerging technologies practice, please email techlawtalks@reedsmith.com. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.  Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.  All rights reserved. Transcript is auto-generated.

View the Bulletin for Wednesday, July 24, 2024Worship Service: 2:00 p.m.Bible Study: 2:30 p.m. — The Book of HebrewsAll are welcome, bring a friend, neighbor or relativeVisit our YouTube channel — Click the red “subscribe” box, and then click on the “bell” next to that box to receive Live Streaming notifications. You must be logged into YouTube to activate these features.Archive of AUDIO “Readings & Sermons”Archive of VIDEO “Complete Service”Archive of BULLETINS1 Samuel 8:1-22 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel's leaders. The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice. So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.” But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.” Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle and donkeys he will take for his own use. He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.” But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.” When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.” Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.” Acts 21:15-36 After this, we started on our way up to Jerusalem. Some of the disciples from Caesarea accompanied us and brought us to the home of Mnason, where we were to stay. He was a man from Cyprus and one of the early disciples. When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers and sisters received us warmly. The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. When the seven days were nearly over, some Jews from the province of Asia saw Paul at the temple. They stirred up the whole crowd and seized him, shouting, “Fellow Israelites, help us! This is the man who teaches everyone everywhere against our people and our law and this place. And besides, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.” (They had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian in the city with Paul and assumed that Paul had brought him into the temple.) The whole city was aroused, and the people came running from all directions. Seizing Paul, they dragged him from the temple, and immediately the gates were shut. While they were trying to kill him, news reached the commander of the Roman troops that the whole city of Jerusalem was in an uproar. He at once took some officers and soldiers and ran down to the crowd. When the rioters saw the commander and his soldiers, they stopped beating Paul. The commander came up and arrested him and ordered him to be bound with two chains. Then he asked who he was and what he had done. Some in the crowd shouted one thing and some another, and since the commander could not get at the truth because of the uproar, he ordered that Paul be taken into the barracks. When Paul reached the steps, the violence of the mob was so great he had to be carried by the soldiers. The crowd that followed kept shouting, “Get rid of him!” The Sacrament of the Altar Who receives this Sacrament worthily? Fasting and bodily preparation are certainly fine outward training. But that person is truly worthy and well prepared who has faith in these words: “Given and shed for you for the forgiveness of sins.” But anyone who does not believe these words or doubts them is unworthy and unprepared, for the words “for you” require all hearts to believe.

Acts 21:17-26 17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. 26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them. (NIV 84) FROM THE LESSON 1 Corinthians 9:19-23: "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings." Witness: "A witness is someone who sees or experiences something important for others to know about. Used as a verb, as in to witness or to bear witness, it just means to tell others about what you saw or experienced (John Mark Comer)." Extent of Witness: The extent of Paul's witness was to "all" people. Can the church be made up of all people - all ethnicities, all races, all socio-economic levels, all ages, all backgrounds - can we set aside our differences and unite together in Jesus Christ? Intent of Witness: The intent of Paul's witness was to bring people to Jesus in order to gain a brother or sister in Christ. The word translated "to win" is actually an economic word which means to gain or to profit from an investment.  DISCUSSION QUESTIONS 1 Icebreaker - practice being a "witness" with your group. Spend a few moments sharing with your group about something significant that you have seen or experienced in the last month.  2 What do you think about when you hear the term "witness?" What are your initial thoughts? How might you be His witness this week? What would that look like? 3 In 1 Corinthians 9:22, Paul writes, "I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some." This is the extent of his witness. Discuss this statement with your group.  4 In 1 Corinthians 9:19, Paul writes, "Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible." This is the intent of his witness. Discuss this statement with your group.  5 A core value of Southside is "to be relevant in an ever-changing culture with the never-changing message of Jesus." The goal is to have cultural sensitivity and yet to maintain gospel integrity. Discuss how Paul and James attempt this delicate balance in the predominantly Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem.

What drives your ambition—mere success or something deeper? In this bonus episode of "Win Monday,", we dive deep into the powerful philosophy of "unreasonable ambition" embraced by the Win Monday community. This episode explores how ambition, when directed with intention and self-awareness, can become a remarkable trait that fosters both personal and collective growth.Our host, Paul Epstein, leads a thought-provoking discussion on the beauty of ambition and its potential to drive extraordinary achievements when properly harnessed. We examine the critical role of self-reflection and awareness in channeling ambition positively. The episode also highlights the importance of understanding the motivations behind our drive for success and ensuring they align with our authentic personal values.Join us as we delve into how a community of like-minded individuals can inspire ceaseless learning and boundary-pushing, leading to profound personal growth.  Key Takeaways:Learn about the philosophy of "unreasonable ambition" and how it can propel you towards extraordinary achievements.Discover how being part of a community with shared values and goals can accelerate your personal development and thirst for knowledge.Understand the importance of examining your motives for success, the sacrifices you're willing to make, and ensuring your ambition is rooted in authentic personal values.Gain insights on how to align your drive for success with your true self, making your achievements more meaningful and sustainable. Notable Quotes:“But here's the reality of speaking.It's a time for money exchange, meaning every time I say yes to an opportunity, and in order to go, take the opportunity and ignite the impact, which, of course, takes care of my family, and that's the exchange.” - Paul“You're going to burn out. It's going to flame out. And that would be a negative addiction. But is it possible if we flipped it? Is it possible that it could be a positive addiction?” - Paul Resource & Links:Paul EpsteinJoin the Win Monday Community: https://www.paulepsteinspeaks.com/win-mondayTake the Confidence Quiz: https://www.paulepsteinspeaks.com/confidence-quizhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/paulepsteinspeaks/https://www.paulepsteinspeaks.com/

Are you ready to discover the secret to peak performance and ultimate fulfillment? In this bonus episode of Win Monday, host Paul Epstein unveils the transformative power of the 'flow state' and how merging your passion with your profession can lead to extraordinary success. Join us as special guest Jennifer Lier shares her captivating journey with yoga, revealing how it became her pathway to experiencing this optimal state of consciousness where she feels and performs at her best.Paul also explores the crucial role of community and connection in achieving our goals. Tune in to gain actionable insights on balancing your passions with your responsibilities, creating a harmonious blend that fosters a life of fulfillment and achievement. Don't miss this chance to transform your approach to work and life! Key Takeaways:The magic of the flow state and how it can transform your daily experiences.Combining your passion with your career can lead to a more fulfilling and successful professional life.The delicate balance between pursuing your passions and meeting your responsibilities, and how to achieve this harmony in your life. In this episode:[03:53]: Struggling with passions versus responsibilities[04:46]: How to integrate passion into work life[05:37]: Strategies for achieving dreams and goals[06:03]: Finding your personal "yoga" Notable Quotes:“All these things that can cripple and paralyze so many from their dreams or goals, their ambitions, everything that's future focused in a positive light. But she didn't let those get in the way because she was determined based on listening to the cues and signals that changed and transformed her life.” - Paul“You don't need to burn the boats. You don't need to go all in maybe yet, but even if you always keep it on the side, the only mistake is ignoring it. The only mistake is not doing it.” - PaulResource & LinksPaul EpsteinJoin the Win Monday Community: https://www.paulepsteinspeaks.com/win-mondayTake the Confidence Quiz: https://www.paulepsteinspeaks.com/confidence-quizhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/paulepsteinspeaks/https://www.paulepsteinspeaks.com/

Human: I'm sorry, did I hear you say we needed to rejoice in our sufferings?? Paul: You did! Tune into the message to hear more good news.

In a culture that devalued women, Jesus not only valued them as equally created in the image of God in the same way as men, but the value He placed upon them is seen through the New Testament writers as followers of Jesus. For example, the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were all written by men who were sure to point out that it was a man by the name of Judas who betrayed Jesus and it was the male disciples in Jesus life who left Him and fled when He was arrested. However, it was the women in Jesus life, along with John, who were present while Jesus hung on a cross to die. If you were making up a story about a Savior in a male dominated society that viewed women as, in the words of Socrates, Incapable of reason and making rational choices, you would by no means portray them as being brave enough not to flee and hide like the rest of the disciples did. It is also worth noting that if Jesus resurrection was a made-up story told by a group of men, you definitely would not make women the first eyewitnesses to His resurrection! The inclusion of women in Jesus life serves as further proof that not only is the Bible for both men and women, but additional evidence that Jesus did rise from the grave. However, before Jesus rose from the grave, He was crucified and did indeed die! He was handed over by the religious leaders of His day to be sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate for treason, and although He was innocent of such crimes he was sentenced to death by crucifixion. Before He was forced to carry His cross, He was beaten, flogged, mocked, and beaten again. Jesus stood mangled and hemorrhaging before a jeering crowd who demanded with shouts: Crucify, crucify him! (see Luke 23:18-25). When Pilate told Jesus that he had the power to release him, Jesus replied: You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above (John 19:11). Pilate washed his hands in a bowl of water symbolizing his innocence and ordered that Jesus be crucified. Jesus was forced to carry His cross to the place of his execution known as Golgotha. Once He reached Golgotha, Jesus was stretched out by force upon the cross where His hands and feet were nailed to the wooden beams that made up His cross, where He would hang until His death. For six hours he hung on that cross and while on the cross, three of the seven statements that came out from His mouth that will serve as my main points this resurrection Sunday morning, were as follows: While the crowd mocked him and the soldiers gambled over his clothes, as Jesus hung on the cross stripped of His cloths and humiliated before the masses, He said: Father, forgiven them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34). While dying on the Cross under the wrath of God for sins we are guilty of, under the unrestrained justice we all deserved for our sins, Jesus cried: My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Matt. 27:27)? Just before He breathed out what air was left in His lungs, in case there was any confusion as to who was in charge, Jesus declared: It is finished (John 19:30). Jesus died. To prove that he was dead, one of the soldiers thrust his spear into the side and heart of Jesus, a man by the name of Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus, and then His body was prepared for burial, placed in the tomb, and a stone was rolled in front of the entrance of the tomb to seal the grave shut. While in the tomb, Jesus was not unconscious and he didnt have a twin brother who pretended to rise from the grave; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wanted to be impeccably clear that Jesus physically died on the cross and that His death was very important and very significant. Three days later, Jesus rose from the grave! The women in Jesus life were the first to see and witness His resurrected body, while the men in His life refused to believe it until Jesus appeared to them as well. They, and every other person who encountered the risen Christ, would never be the same! If Jesus remained in the tomb after His death, then all we would have to look to was a dead martyr. Jesus did not stay dead though, and His resurrection is proof that all that He said and did was legitimate and true. Jesus went to the cross to die a death each and every human deserved to die. To the Corinthian Church, Paul wrote to a group of people who had seen how a resurrected Jesus transformed lives: Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:14) Jesus lived the life none of us could and died the death that every single one of us deserved, and His resurrection from the tomb validates His death for our sins and triumphant victory over sin and death as true. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is, the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16). Jesus Resurrection Proves that We Can be Forgiven by God (Eph. 2:11) It is the power of the gospel that the Christians in Ephesus experienced! Ephesus was the home of one of the seven wonders of the world: The Temple of Diana (Artemis). Horrible things happened in that temple and people from all over the world came to Ephesus to experience what the goddess Diana offered, and Ephesus economy benefited under the oppressive demonic power of Artemis, until the gospel came to that city. Those who became Christians were identified by those in the city as belonging to the Way after something Jesus said about Himself: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me (John 14:6). We are given a small glimpse of the kind of effect the gospel had upon Ephesus and the worship of Diana in Acts 19. Demetrius, a silversmith who made a living off forming silver shrines of Artemis, was particularly angry over the way the gospel impacted his business; listen to his complaint about the apostle Paul: You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that gods made by hands are not gods at all. Not only is there danger that this trade of ours will fall into disrepute, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be regarded as worthless, and that she whom all of Asia and the world worship will even be dethroned from her magnificence. (Acts 19:2627) To those who heard about Jesus, repented of their sins and idolatry, and surrendered their lives to Him, Paul wrote: In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us (Eph. 1:7-8a). Because of Jesus, these Ephesian Christians had a new identity that was now rooted in Christ instead of Artemis! Against the backdrop of a demonic temple, Paul wrote these words: These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and made Him head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:2023) To those rescued out of the paganism of Artemis through the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:11-12a, Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision which is performed in the flesh by human hands were at that time separate from Christ. They were at one time dead in their sins; under the guise of Artemis, they once, walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:1-3). But through the cross of Christ, they have been made alive with Christ because of the rich mercy, great love, and sufficient grace of almighty God! If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, if you have placed your faith and trust in Him as the only means for the forgiveness of your sins, then you who, were at one time separate from Christ (2:11), have been forgiven by God through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Jesus Resurrection Proves that We Can be Reconciled to God (Eph. 2:12) On the eve of His execution, Jesus was abandoned and left alone with no one. If that were not enough, there was One more person who abandoned Him to leave him completely and desperately alone. We learn who that person was with Jesus words from the cross: My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34). Why would Jesus say such a thing from the cross? Because it was on the cross that Jesus was cursed in our place, which was the plan all along. It is the reason why John the Baptist cried out upon seeing Jesus in the early days of our Saviors earthly ministry: Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)! While Jesus endured the humiliation of the cross, He experienced exactly what the prophet Isaiah described in Isaiah 53:5, But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; the punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5). When Jesus cried out, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? He, in that moment, experienced the cursing of His Heavenly Father for sins we are guilty of. From the moment of conception, ours is a nature that gravitates towards opposition against our Creator. Oh, we are fine with a god of our own making, but the God who spoke the galaxies into existence, whose power fashioned more than 300 billion suns with a command, before whom the pure Seraphim shield their faces with one set of wings and cover their feet with another set of wings, while calling out to one another concerning God almighty: Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of armies. The whole earth is full of His glory (Isa. 6:1-3), we run from that God! Why? Because, as the Bible declares: There is no righteous person, not even one; there is no one who understand, there is no one who seeks out God. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:10-11, 23). That is the problem with humanity and that is why Jesus said, For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). For our sin, Jesus was cursed so that you and I would not have to be, this is why the Bible states, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written: Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (Gal. 3:13). Aarons blessing is now for you Christian: The Lord bless you, and keep you; The Lord cause His face to shine on you, And be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His face to you, And give you peace (Num. 6:2426). Aarons blessing is for you Christian, because Jesus drank every last drop of Gods wrath on your account by becoming a curse in your place. Jesus experienced the antithesis of Aarons blessing, which if the voice of God could be heard on that day Jesus hung from the cross: The Lord curse you, and abandon you; The Lord turn His face from you, and condemn you; may the Lord stand against you, and withhold His peace from you.[1] Jesus because a curse in our place because we were, strangers to the covenant of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Because of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, you have been reconciled to God! Jesus Resurrection Proves that We Can Become the Children of God (Eph. 2:13) The final statement from the cross came in the form of a final declaration: It is finished! All that was required for our redemption was accomplished on the cross! We who were hostile towards God, stood as an enemy of God, who walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:2-3), we who were once children of Gods wrath have now been reconciled to God and experience only His pleasure. If you are a Christian, then Ephesians 2:13 is for you: But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. The cross of Christ was enough to save lost sinners and the resurrection of Jesus is proof that all who are far and away from God can be forgiven by God, reconciled to God, and made a child of God through the Christ of the cross who lived the life we could not live, died a death we all deserved, and conquered sin and death on the third day by rising from the grave! Concerning Jesus: There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among mankind by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). This is the gospel, and it is, the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16)! [1] I heard this for the first time at the 2008 T4G Conference delivered by R.C. Sproul. For more see: https://www.ligonier.org/posts/god-cursed-him.

In a culture that devalued women, Jesus not only valued them as equally created in the image of God in the same way as men, but the value He placed upon them is seen through the New Testament writers as followers of Jesus. For example, the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were all written by men who were sure to point out that it was a man by the name of Judas who betrayed Jesus and it was the male disciples in Jesus life who left Him and fled when He was arrested. However, it was the women in Jesus life, along with John, who were present while Jesus hung on a cross to die. If you were making up a story about a Savior in a male dominated society that viewed women as, in the words of Socrates, Incapable of reason and making rational choices, you would by no means portray them as being brave enough not to flee and hide like the rest of the disciples did. It is also worth noting that if Jesus resurrection was a made-up story told by a group of men, you definitely would not make women the first eyewitnesses to His resurrection! The inclusion of women in Jesus life serves as further proof that not only is the Bible for both men and women, but additional evidence that Jesus did rise from the grave. However, before Jesus rose from the grave, He was crucified and did indeed die! He was handed over by the religious leaders of His day to be sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate for treason, and although He was innocent of such crimes he was sentenced to death by crucifixion. Before He was forced to carry His cross, He was beaten, flogged, mocked, and beaten again. Jesus stood mangled and hemorrhaging before a jeering crowd who demanded with shouts: Crucify, crucify him! (see Luke 23:18-25). When Pilate told Jesus that he had the power to release him, Jesus replied: You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above (John 19:11). Pilate washed his hands in a bowl of water symbolizing his innocence and ordered that Jesus be crucified. Jesus was forced to carry His cross to the place of his execution known as Golgotha. Once He reached Golgotha, Jesus was stretched out by force upon the cross where His hands and feet were nailed to the wooden beams that made up His cross, where He would hang until His death. For six hours he hung on that cross and while on the cross, three of the seven statements that came out from His mouth that will serve as my main points this resurrection Sunday morning, were as follows: While the crowd mocked him and the soldiers gambled over his clothes, as Jesus hung on the cross stripped of His cloths and humiliated before the masses, He said: Father, forgiven them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34). While dying on the Cross under the wrath of God for sins we are guilty of, under the unrestrained justice we all deserved for our sins, Jesus cried: My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Matt. 27:27)? Just before He breathed out what air was left in His lungs, in case there was any confusion as to who was in charge, Jesus declared: It is finished (John 19:30). Jesus died. To prove that he was dead, one of the soldiers thrust his spear into the side and heart of Jesus, a man by the name of Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus, and then His body was prepared for burial, placed in the tomb, and a stone was rolled in front of the entrance of the tomb to seal the grave shut. While in the tomb, Jesus was not unconscious and he didnt have a twin brother who pretended to rise from the grave; Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wanted to be impeccably clear that Jesus physically died on the cross and that His death was very important and very significant. Three days later, Jesus rose from the grave! The women in Jesus life were the first to see and witness His resurrected body, while the men in His life refused to believe it until Jesus appeared to them as well. They, and every other person who encountered the risen Christ, would never be the same! If Jesus remained in the tomb after His death, then all we would have to look to was a dead martyr. Jesus did not stay dead though, and His resurrection is proof that all that He said and did was legitimate and true. Jesus went to the cross to die a death each and every human deserved to die. To the Corinthian Church, Paul wrote to a group of people who had seen how a resurrected Jesus transformed lives: Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:14) Jesus lived the life none of us could and died the death that every single one of us deserved, and His resurrection from the tomb validates His death for our sins and triumphant victory over sin and death as true. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and it is, the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16). Jesus Resurrection Proves that We Can be Forgiven by God (Eph. 2:11) It is the power of the gospel that the Christians in Ephesus experienced! Ephesus was the home of one of the seven wonders of the world: The Temple of Diana (Artemis). Horrible things happened in that temple and people from all over the world came to Ephesus to experience what the goddess Diana offered, and Ephesus economy benefited under the oppressive demonic power of Artemis, until the gospel came to that city. Those who became Christians were identified by those in the city as belonging to the Way after something Jesus said about Himself: I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me (John 14:6). We are given a small glimpse of the kind of effect the gospel had upon Ephesus and the worship of Diana in Acts 19. Demetrius, a silversmith who made a living off forming silver shrines of Artemis, was particularly angry over the way the gospel impacted his business; listen to his complaint about the apostle Paul: You see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in almost all of Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable number of people, saying that gods made by hands are not gods at all. Not only is there danger that this trade of ours will fall into disrepute, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be regarded as worthless, and that she whom all of Asia and the world worship will even be dethroned from her magnificence. (Acts 19:2627) To those who heard about Jesus, repented of their sins and idolatry, and surrendered their lives to Him, Paul wrote: In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us (Eph. 1:7-8a). Because of Jesus, these Ephesian Christians had a new identity that was now rooted in Christ instead of Artemis! Against the backdrop of a demonic temple, Paul wrote these words: These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and made Him head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. (Eph. 1:2023) To those rescued out of the paganism of Artemis through the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ, Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:11-12a, Therefore remember that previously you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by the so-called circumcision which is performed in the flesh by human hands were at that time separate from Christ. They were at one time dead in their sins; under the guise of Artemis, they once, walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:1-3). But through the cross of Christ, they have been made alive with Christ because of the rich mercy, great love, and sufficient grace of almighty God! If you are a follower of Jesus Christ, if you have placed your faith and trust in Him as the only means for the forgiveness of your sins, then you who, were at one time separate from Christ (2:11), have been forgiven by God through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. Jesus Resurrection Proves that We Can be Reconciled to God (Eph. 2:12) On the eve of His execution, Jesus was abandoned and left alone with no one. If that were not enough, there was One more person who abandoned Him to leave him completely and desperately alone. We learn who that person was with Jesus words from the cross: My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34). Why would Jesus say such a thing from the cross? Because it was on the cross that Jesus was cursed in our place, which was the plan all along. It is the reason why John the Baptist cried out upon seeing Jesus in the early days of our Saviors earthly ministry: Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29)! While Jesus endured the humiliation of the cross, He experienced exactly what the prophet Isaiah described in Isaiah 53:5, But He was pierced for our offenses, He was crushed for our wrongdoings; the punishment for our well-being was laid upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed (Isaiah 53:5). When Jesus cried out, My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? He, in that moment, experienced the cursing of His Heavenly Father for sins we are guilty of. From the moment of conception, ours is a nature that gravitates towards opposition against our Creator. Oh, we are fine with a god of our own making, but the God who spoke the galaxies into existence, whose power fashioned more than 300 billion suns with a command, before whom the pure Seraphim shield their faces with one set of wings and cover their feet with another set of wings, while calling out to one another concerning God almighty: Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of armies. The whole earth is full of His glory (Isa. 6:1-3), we run from that God! Why? Because, as the Bible declares: There is no righteous person, not even one; there is no one who understand, there is no one who seeks out God. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:10-11, 23). That is the problem with humanity and that is why Jesus said, For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10). For our sin, Jesus was cursed so that you and I would not have to be, this is why the Bible states, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us for it is written: Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree (Gal. 3:13). Aarons blessing is now for you Christian: The Lord bless you, and keep you; The Lord cause His face to shine on you, And be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His face to you, And give you peace (Num. 6:2426). Aarons blessing is for you Christian, because Jesus drank every last drop of Gods wrath on your account by becoming a curse in your place. Jesus experienced the antithesis of Aarons blessing, which if the voice of God could be heard on that day Jesus hung from the cross: The Lord curse you, and abandon you; The Lord turn His face from you, and condemn you; may the Lord stand against you, and withhold His peace from you.[1] Jesus because a curse in our place because we were, strangers to the covenant of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world. Because of the life, death, and resurrection of Christ, you have been reconciled to God! Jesus Resurrection Proves that We Can Become the Children of God (Eph. 2:13) The final statement from the cross came in the form of a final declaration: It is finished! All that was required for our redemption was accomplished on the cross! We who were hostile towards God, stood as an enemy of God, who walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience (Eph. 2:2-3), we who were once children of Gods wrath have now been reconciled to God and experience only His pleasure. If you are a Christian, then Ephesians 2:13 is for you: But now in Christ Jesus you who previously were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. The cross of Christ was enough to save lost sinners and the resurrection of Jesus is proof that all who are far and away from God can be forgiven by God, reconciled to God, and made a child of God through the Christ of the cross who lived the life we could not live, died a death we all deserved, and conquered sin and death on the third day by rising from the grave! Concerning Jesus: There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among mankind by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). This is the gospel, and it is, the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16)! [1] I heard this for the first time at the 2008 T4G Conference delivered by R.C. Sproul. For more see: https://www.ligonier.org/posts/god-cursed-him.

This week on Finding Your Bliss in an Encore Presentation, Bliss Expert and Life Coach Judy Librach is joined by Paul

In this episode, Andy calls Paul Bassett, and together they have a short conversation about the opportunity to turn water into dollars. === Paul: Hey Drew.  Andy: Paul. Good morning.  Paul: Good morning to you buddy. Andy: How's your day going?  Paul: It's going great today. Thanks. It's Friday.  Andy: Heck yeah. I was thinking about you this morning because of the concept of turning water into dollars that I was thinking about and thought we could just brain share about that concept. Paul: I like that. Andy: So yesterday I moderated a webinar with Ben Coffey at WeatherTrack and Max Moreno, who's the VP of sales for Harvest Landscape, and Max uses water budgets as a part of his daily business practice. And the more I started thinking about water budgets, it's really a concept of a budget and a budget entails finances and money. Andy: And what I think is so fascinating is that we all, you know, in this industry, when I say we, I'm generalizing here. Most people talk about run time, number one, you know, how long should I run my sprinklers in the form of time? And then. Kind of at the next level, people talk about how much water am I going to use? Andy: What's the gallons? What's the volume? Either gallons per minute, gallons per day, per cycle, per year, per month. But then what we really don't talk much about is what does the dollars mean? How can we convert that to dollars and cents and why do we not use that as a discussion point more often?  Paul: You're right. Paul: I mean, it's something that I think should be discussed with the end user client because in In almost any other utility consumption, it is discussed in dollars and cost. I don't know why the water is slower to transition to that. So I think it's a good place to be for us, Andy, because it will allow us to kind of be a differentiator, or what we teach others to allow them to be a differentiator. Andy: I think that if we're only now starting to talk about the dollars, I feel like what we need to do is put the dollars out there. So with the, let's say the irrigation design, the proposal, you know, the estimate when contractor X goes out to a client site, whether it's residential or commercial, and they put together their estimate for construction and installation. Andy: I don't know that I've ever seen a proposal that includes estimated. Cost per year on the system, and I think if we led with that, then that would spark the kind of curiosity and question and we could go backwards into the different parts of the system, the design, the distribution uniformity that actually affects the cost of the system, but lead with the dollars and then explain it through the use of technology, proper installation, proper design, et cetera. Andy: I mean, it's, it's so good because if you think about it in, in other appliances that you buy, for instance, you know, if you see nowadays, if you buy a hot water heater, or if you buy a refrigerator, what do they have stamped on it, they have stamped on what the anticipated energy cost is to operate that piece of equipment for a given year based upon a unit of measurement of that particular particular. Andy: Energy or, uh, utility. So they say, okay, if you're gonna buy this refrigerator, average energy costs in the United States is 12 cents a kilowatt hour. On average, this particular refrigerator is going to cost you a hundred bucks a year to run an energy. Why can't we do the same in irrigation? It should be that way. Andy: Right. Instead we say this sprinkler uses, uh, 2. 5 gallons per minute, let's just say. But what does that really mean? The user, the end user, doesn't, doesn't really know what that means, and they don't necessarily... But what if we said something different? Yeah, change the metric. I don't know if we could necessarily turn it into dollars, because it depends on, you know, how long it needs to run, but maybe it could be like, here's how many, you know, dollars per hour of operation or something like that. Andy: Yeah, or, you know, just like you, when you create a gallons per minute, we know what that... Flow rate is and you determine what that zone should run for and then calculate what it should cost to run that many gallons through the system. I mean, it's really not as challenging as one would think it's just we don't use that metric at this point,  Andy: right? Andy: And and all of these, uh, let's say modern control systems Let's just say modern because I I personally don't think most systems are really all that awesome So we'll just call them modern if we're already tracking gpm And we, you know, we can find breaks in the pipe and we can, we can have all those kinds of alarms and we have a GPM. Andy: All we have to do is add another box to the controller interface that says, what's your water cost? And now we can run basically like a cash register of, of water, of a dollar totals. You know, how awesome would that be? That's a  great  Paul: idea. Yeah, that's a great idea.  Andy: The screen of the controller should say. Andy: You know, you spent 264 yesterday to  Paul: operate this piece of equipment. Yeah. That's a good idea. And it's  Andy: not anything that requires any kind of like sophisticated engineering. It's just another variable calculated. Like it's easy.  Paul: Pretty much. You're right. I mean, I don't see that. And well, then there's, there's another idea to put to the idealist. Andy: We got it. Yeah. And you know, we're looking at from the sort of, that's the technology side of it, but even as a contractor putting together a proposal, I think it would be an amazing differentiator to separate someone's business if they included that in their proposal, because it would be a great. Andy: conversation piece to have with the client that would allow the contractor to showcase their knowledge, expertise, and build trust. And the client may say, you know what, you're the only one who, who gave me a proposal with the estimated water costs. And then the contractor might say something like, you know what, you should go ask the other contractors how much their system is going to cost you. Andy: And if they did that, the other contractors may say, I don't, I don't know, I don't, I don't think about that and basically talk themselves out of the sale. Yeah,  Paul: that is a very good point to make if you're a sophisticated contractor and you want to differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack, that is a good ploy to put in your proposal. Paul: Yeah, and that  Andy: would be one way to win the project by and be the highest price is because you're adding value And I don't know anyone who's really doing that. So there you go guys. That's one little nugget Maybe you can experiment with and then reply back and let us know how it went Did it help you close the sale when you included water costs  Paul: and if folks need assistance with it Andy Certainly they can reach out to both you and I we can we can help them prepare that document because you know We've been doing this for more than 20 years. Paul: Ideally, I know I've or that 30. So that that's really what has helped me and my business succeed is being able to tell the end user what they're using and spending in water and what a 10% or 15% reduction of water is going to show in savings and then where they can use. Savings by increasing the efficiency in the system or by investing in technology,  Andy: it would help explain. Andy: So if, if instead of selling a quote unquote, more expensive sprinkler, because it has pressure regulation built in, let's say for those areas where it's not necessarily required, that helps tell the story of why, well, because you're going to save that amount of money right away in the first year. Because of the reduced water usage. Paul: Yeah, and or even as we do, Andy, add some additional data points, i. e. some soil moisture sensors to be able to stop watering in a given period because we now know what the moisture level is in the soil. Whereas other irrigation systems will just water their regular Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule and we can delay or even stop those schedules and we can, or you can prove to the homeowner, here's what it costs every time your schedule runs. Paul: And then here's how many times we feel we can delay the schedule and what that savings are going to be. Yeah,  Andy: because the, the volume of water doesn't really mean much to people because they don't know what a thousand gallons looks like or 50, 000 gallons looks like. 50, 000 seems like maybe it's a lot of water, but if, if we had the, if we changed the narrative. Andy: and switched it to dollars, then the amount of water doesn't really even matter as much. It's more like, how do I go from spending 750 a month to spending 500 a month? It's much more tangible, I think.  Paul: Definitely. Definitely. And then people hope, you know, some of the more sophisticated homeowners and business owners have a budget that they prepare, and then they go from their budget. Paul: So you can, you can assist them with establishing their. Their annual budget costs of what they're going to spend in water.  Andy: So I think when we're thinking about water budgets, and then again, this is where my thought came from because this is what our conversation was with WeatherTrack and using the tools of that controller for water budgeting and you can enter the gallons so that you can put, you know, you can track and trend how many gallons you're using. Andy: I think we really need to switch the conversation to just be about Dollars and cents because everybody understands dollars and cents, but I don't think a lot of people Understand what their water costs or what a certain volume of water, you know, it's it's not tangible to them Yeah, and  Paul: it's really strange that that's been the case with water and again dealing with it for this past 30 years I'd like to see the narrative shifting I like the fact that people are really caring more about the insights and digitization of water And, and now that there's more and more tools to be able to deploy for people to see the insights in their water usage and their patterns. Paul: Mm hmm.  Andy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And again, we kind of talked here about using homeowners, but really, you know, the bigger, the bigger opportunity is for these light commercial, commercial municipal sites that did use a lot of water, you know, say 20, 000 or more a year. I think that's the real hot opportunity.  Paul: And Andy, as you know, there's other sites that use hundreds of thousands of dollars. Paul: You know, or more a year, um, and just a slight decrease of 10% can can really be dramatic when you're spending 100 grand. I mean, think about it. If they're spending 100 grand in water a year, and you, you say 10%. 10, 000. I mean, that is a big number to be able to use to invest into the newer technology.  Andy: And then depending on perhaps what type of, uh, uh, ROI, you know, there could be, uh, a client could say, you know what, anything that can give us a five year ROI, we're going to invest in. Andy: So 10, 000 over five years is 50 grand. There's the budget for the controls retrofit or whatever the retrofit might be.  Paul: And then two, it's not even just about the technology to achieve the savings that they, they could use that money to invest in personnel that can monitor and manage this equipment. And so that's really where I think this particular strategy really takes places where you can sell the end user, the upgraded management. Paul: of the system by showing them the savings by just having someone have eyes and ears looking at the data.  Andy: Yeah, good stuff, man. Well, appreciate the little brain share this morning. Always good to vision future vision with you. And I think that turning water into dollars, we might be on the on the edge of that next revolution. Andy: There's  Paul: no doubt and it's always good to talk with you to the thoughts and brain shares are  Andy: Always great. So there you have it guys. Paul and I are making a prediction that one of the next revolutions, or let's not say revolution evolution is going to be totalizing water in the control systems by dollars, not just gallons and displaying it and talking about it. Andy: Cool. Thanks.  Paul: Good to hear from you. Thank you. Have a good day. Bye bye.

In this episode of Selling From The Heart, hosts Larry Levine and Darrell Amy are joined by Paul Caffrey, the co-author of the book "Work Before The Work: The Hidden Habits of Elite Sales Professionals That They Use to Outperform the Competition." Paul has spent the past 14 years mastering the sales profession and is trusted by some of the world's biggest brands and most innovative scale-up tech companies.Paul shares his insights on sales preparation and how it can help sales professionals outperform their competition. He discusses the importance of developing a growth mindset, setting goals, and planning your day. Paul also shares his thoughts on the role of authenticity in sales and how it can help build trust with customers. Additionally, he discusses the six habits that elite sales professionals use to achieve success.HIGHLIGHT QUOTESImportance of clarity in sales - Paul: "You have to speak about outcomes. You need to be that visionary to bring people along with you. But if you're not clear on what you expect and how you expect it to be done, can you prospect and find some opportunities or can you work that territory that means a hundred different things to a hundred different people, And again, yes, specificity, it just means that you're able to then row in the right direction.” Connect with Paul and get his book:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulcaffrey/Book: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Before-Professionals-Outperform-Competition/dp/1774583003/Claim one of 10 copies of "The Work Before the Work, The Hidden Habits Elite Sales Professionals Use to Outperform the Competition".  Paul M. Caffrey has also offered listeners of the Selling from the Heart podcast 1:1 coaching with incredible output, a personalized report to improve how you sell along with guidance on how to advance your career. Be quick as there is limited availability!! Both are available at this special link: https://www.paulcaffrey.com/heart  Learn more about Darrell and Larry: Darrell | Larry | Website Got a video about how you sell from the heart? Share it by texting VIDEO to 21000.Click HERE to preorder your copy of the rerelease of the Selling from the Heart book. SUBSCRIBE to our YOUTUBE CHANNEL! Please visit WHYINSTITUTE.COMPlease go to WORKBETTERNOW.COMClick for your Daily Dose of InspirationCheck out the 2023 Authentic Selling ChallengeGet your Insiders Group FREE PASS here 

I met the Yonder Oak Wood team back in March to discover how this landscape will be transformed for people and wildlife, and what designing a new wood involves. The vision is to attract plentiful wildlife with healthy habitat that offers refuge from weather extremes and fights climate change. The local community has been involved from the off - volunteer Sally Burton joins us to explain what she gets up to, how excited everyone is about the future and what volunteering means to her. We also hear of efforts to make the site more sustainable, from re-usable fences to tree guard trials, and I get my hands dirty planting a tree. Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk Transcript You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people, for wildlife. Adam: Well, today I'm off to, well, the wonderfully named Yonder Oak Wood. And although it's called a wood, it's not really a wood yet. This is a very exciting project, but it's in the very early stages of creation. It's near Exmouth in Devon. The Woodland Trust plans on planting, I think something like 13,000 trees there, creating a new environment for nature and wildlife to bounce back. Sounds a great place to go, I'm going to meet a few people there. First off, though, is my contact at the Woodland Trust today, Rachel Harries. Rachel: So this site is Yonder Oak Wood, it's not quite a wood yet, as you can see, but the Woodland Trust bought it in March last year with the aim of creating, creating a new wooded landscape here. So it's 54 hectares, we think it is the biggest woodland creation site that the Trust has done in the South West in in 20 years, so 54 hectares, that's equivalent to about 100 football pitches, and it sits on the sort of two sides of a hidden valley, just a couple of miles inland from the South Coast of Devon. So where we're stood, we can actually see out to the mouth of the Exe estuary, to Dawlish and and possibly to Torquay there as well. Adam: I I think you can just see the estuary over there can't you, just beyond that last bunch of trees is that right? Rachel: You absolutely can, yeah, you absolutely can. And actually the other day when I was here, I saw a white bird fly over that was an egret that was obviously based in the estuary, so really exciting. Adam: And why, now this site, I happen to know is, it it's quite important because of the anniversary and just explain to me, explain to me a little bit about that. Rachel: That's right. Last year was the 50th anniversary of the Woodland Trust and the first site that our founder Ken Watkins ever bought was in Devon. So it's really emblematic that we are now creating a new woodland, probably I think it's about 30 miles away as the crow flies from the Avon Valley Woods where we were started. But we're now creating a new woodland in the county of our birthplace, which is incredibly exciting, and we wanted to create something that would have meaning for local people and it would like, it would be tied into the local environment, so we did things like we looked at the name of the stream, we looked at old field names and we came up with a shortlist of names that we could then offer out to the local community and ask them which one, which one they wanted and what they wanted to call this new site. And one of the field names was Yonder Oak Park. And that's really quite special because as you look across the site, you can see all these incredible old oak trees over yonder, off in the distance. So I have to admit that was my favourite but we let the community choose and they voted for Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Right well you're gonna take me on a little walk around here, so just explain to me a little bit about what we're gonna see. Rachel: OK. Well, we're starting here on a sloping field that has old oak trees dotted about the landscape. Some of these are a couple of hundred years old and there's one in particular which we can see just off in the distance, which is one of my, one of my favourites that is standing almost on on stilts. And the stilts are actually its roots that would have once been embedded in a Devon bank, which is a sort of a solid hedgerow that we find in Devon that has trees planted on the top and the hedgerow and the bank has been taken away. So the tree now kind of stands about a metre above the height that it would have once been. Adam: Which one, I can't tell which one that is? Rachel: So can you see there's two in that field over there, we'll walk past it so we can have another look at it. Adam: Yes, I see that, I see that. OK, maybe my eyesight's not very good. So and this goes, these are currently separate fields and there's what a field and then a hedgerow, another field, then another hedgerow, then the tree supposedly on stilts and beyond that what looks like a solar panel farm. So is this the, what will be the new woodland all the way up to the solar panels? Rachel: We've worked to design a mixture of of habitats here, so we have about 5 different fields where we're doing much more intensive planting and that's what people would kind of imagine that would grow into what people would imagine a woodland would look like, but then in some of these other fields, so the field that we're stood in and a couple of other fields that you can kind of see off in the distance there, we're going to do a mix of open space, glades and groves. We'll plant some more of these kind of trees that will be allowed to to thrive and to spread on their own, but we'll also plant a mixture of of scrub and shrubs, so that's more lower growing trees, things like blackthorn, hawthorn dogrose, spindle, just to create a really good mix of habitats for all the birds and insects and bats that we, you know, we know are going to thrive here. Adam: And you, you've arranged for us to meet a a couple of people, haven't you? Rachel: Yeah. So we're going to be walking around with Paul Allen, he's our site manager and we're going to meet Sally Burton, who is one of our volunteers here. Adam: The weather's been kind to us so far, but it is a little nippy so we shouldn't keep them waiting. So do you wanna lead on and we'll go meet them. Rachel: Yes, let's go. Adam: And I'm told there there was some sea shantying going on here, which strikes me as odd because we're not, we're not in the middle of the sea or anything. So what's the story behind that? Rachel: Well, we're not far from the sea. We can see, we can see the, we can see the sea here. But we were contacted by a a group of local acapella singers who were inspired by what we're doing here and had decided to take some modern folk songs and to rewrite them to to reference the wood. So they came out one weekend and they sang to our to all of our planters, but we also talked a little bit about sea shanties, which I like the idea of becoming tree shanties. So they took a traditional sea shanty and they changed the lyrics. So we now have a song all about Yonder Oak Wood that we could sing along to. Adam: Great. And that we're going to hear that now from from you. So here's Rachel with her tree shanty. Is that right? No? Rachel *laughs* I don't think so. Adam: Do you have a recording of it? Rachel: I we do have a recording of it actually, yes. Adam: You never know. I don't know. Maybe a couple of teas or beers later, I might persuade you to sing. Alright. Brilliant, Rachel. Thank you very much. Rachel: Thank you. That's great. So here's Paul. He's the site manager and he's going to take us on a little walk down through Yonder Oak Wood. Adam: Paul, thank you very much. Nice to see you. So you are the site manager. Paul: Hello there. I am. Yes, I'm responsible for turning these fields into a wild, wildlife rich area. Adam: OK. Well, go on. Let's lead on. We can have a chat about that. Brilliant. So yeah. So these are early days, Paul. I understand you you are responsible for designing the woodland. What does that actually involve? Paul: So really, I mean the the the first place you you start is is kind of kind of getting a sense of where the place is and what the place is and the the key bit here as we walk through it is you can see these big old oak trees and so we've based a lot of the design on that. So you can picture in the future lots more of these big old trees that will have lots of deadwood, lots of rot holes where birds can nest, and invertebrates burrow in. And the way we're kind of going to maintain it is we're we're going to put animals in and have low intensity grazing and then you kind of build in where the views are. Adam: I mean it must be really exciting because it can't be that often that you you get actually a green field or literally a greenfield site. But it's more or less bare. It's a plain piece of paper for you to design. That's quite, I mean, it's exciting, quite an honour, perhaps a little daunting? Paul: I've I've done probably 30 years of nature conservation and most of what you do is you take bits of habitat and you try and restore them, you try and protect them. You very rarely get a chance to actually create something brand spanking new. It is really phenomenally exciting for all of us, because if you think about it in the future, 100 years time, this place will be on maps. It will be on aerial photographs, you know so not only are we doing stuff that's great for wildlife and great for climate, we're effectively creating history as well, which is an awesome thing to be a part of. Adam: Yeah, so on the map it should say Yonder Oak Wood, brackets Paul Allen. *both laugh* Rachel's in the background going it's my wood, it's my wood. There might be a battle for the name. Paul: I'm I'm doing the design that says it from the sky it'll say Paul was here. *both laugh* Adam: Yes, yes very good, on Google Maps you can, you know, in 100 years time they'll go well how did those trees get planted in the shape of Paul? *laughs* So, OK, look, we're, we're, I've paused because we're at the we're at the top of the hill, almost. So what will happen around us? At the moment there are three or four trees in a line and not much else. So what will be here? Paul: So if you if you picture it in the future, what we'll have is we'll have a a, a a scattering of big old oak trees like we can see across the site and if you look over to our left, you can see an area that actually was the former quarry on the site. But if you look at it, you can see gorse that's currently in flower, even though we're in a freezing day at the beginning of March. And all of that is really good for wildlife. It's got lots of pollen and and nectar and lots of edge that birds and insects really like. And essentially what we're gonna get in the future is a combination of these big old oak trees and that lovely scrubby stuff that's great for wildlife. Adam: So here not too dense? Paul: Not too dense here no, not at all. Adam: So you get the view, you get a nice view and it's a mixed habitat. Paul: You, you, you, you get a view, it's it's very, we've we've constantly said we're creating a kind of a wooded landscape not a wood. Adam: Right. Well, we should carry on walking out, I have a tendency, just not to walk. I can see right over there some white poles which look like tree guards. Which does raise this issue I mean of how you're going to protect the trees because plastic tree guards have become quite controversial. Do you have a plan around that? Paul: Yeah, so we've got we've got, last year the the Woodland Trust decided that it would stop using the virgin plastic tree guards on its sites, which is actually a bit problematic because there aren't really any other types of tree guard that are commercially available at scale, so we're doing a combination of things here. The the main way is we're going to deer fence the site to stop the deer coming in and then we're also in some places we're trialling different types of tree tubes, so we're looking at one at the moment that bizarrely, has been made of sugar beet so it smells like golden syrup when you walk up to it, which is quite weird, and the ones you can see over there are actually recycled from another site. So we're, we're still, we're still using the tree guards that are effectively usable. Adam: Right. You talk about trying to protect the trees from deer. Which does raise the issue of other wildlife. I mean, clearly, we're gonna be hoping that wildlife get attracted into the area once this starts growing. At the moment though, have you have you seen much evidence of sort of new wildlife or any wildlife? Paul: It's still very early days yet. But we've seen lots of buzzards there's there's actually quite a lot of hornets nests in, in the existing oak trees. Adam: Is that a good thing? That sounds terrifying. Paul: *laughs* I I I personally I quite like it. Adam: You're pleased about that, OK. I think a lot of people always feel it takes generations and generations to plant trees. I know I have been at planting events where some young people have planted and said, oh, I think my children and my grandchildren might come to see this tree and then are surprised, actually, they come back to see their own tree and it grows quicker than they might expect. How quickly is this going to develop into anything recognisable as woodland? Paul: So I mean, with within 10 years, it will absolutely look like a woodland, although obviously still a young woodland and different tree species grow at different rates. So the silver birches and the rowans will actually be 6 foot high within two or three years potentially, whereas the the oak trees clearly will grow a lot slower. Adam: Wow, silver birch and rowan, 6 foot high in how long? Paul: Two or three years, if they if they take well. I mean it it it it varies depending on the soil type and all that sort of stuff, but they do grow very, very quickly. Adam: Blimey. And tell me a bit about how you got into all of this. I mean, I know you say you've been doing this a while. Paul: I started well I started off volunteering actually with the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers a long time ago, and I got known by the Norfolk Wildlife Trust and rather randomly, I was having a beer in a pub and they went, do you fancy a job, and I went, alright then. Adam: Very good. So you've learnt on the job about trees? Paul: I I reeducated a few, some time ago but yeah a lot of it was learned as I went along. Adam: I've been very insulting, you've you've probably got a PhD in trees or something. But I do like the idea of, I got my job from a pub, I think I think that's always, I remember a story, so I don't know if you remember a film critic called Barry Norman, he always used to say, I I remember him telling a story, there's a pub around the BBC called, I think it's the White, White Horse or something like that. And he went when he was unemployed, he used to sit there pretending he was writing scripts so that BBC producers would come in for a lunchtime beer, which they don't do anymore, but they used to and they would go, oh, Barry, yeah there's a job we have and he wasn't working at all, he was just trying to be in the pub around and that's how he got his work, so that's clearly not just media, it's it's the tree world as well. Paul: It's it's it's very much very very clearly, a lot harder now than it was, because at that point in time, I guess nature conservation really wasn't a career. Adam: Yeah. We've come across a locked fence, but Paul has a key, there we are. There we are. Into the next next field. Ah, right away. Here's a very different type of fence, and I presume this is to keep the deer out. So first of all, massive fence, is this to keep the deer out? Paul: This is to keep the deer out. Yes, absolutely. And what will happen where we're standing, the hedgerow will creep out into the fence and obviously the wood that we're planting inside will also start to hide the fence. So the fence over time will disappear apart from the gateways. Adam: So I mean, there's a good 7 odd foot here between the hedgerow and the fence. You're saying that that hedgerow will naturally grow another 7 foot? Paul: Yep. So what what what we've got in this hedgerow, actually it's it's it's quite specific to this area is we've got a lot of a lot of small leaved elm and we've also got a lot of blackthorn in it and both of those sucker. So as as we've taken the the the intensive farming off the land the the shrubs will just sucker out and gradually spread into the field. Adam: And look, and we're standing by the main gate and there's a huge tree trunk here, which is holding the post. And I can see the bark coming off. Now is that is that deer trying to get in there do you think? Paul: No, that that's actually that's just part of the process of actually creating the post. Adam: Ohh, that's just that's just me being an idiot. OK, I thought I was being a clever nature detective *laughs* Paul: I mean what one of the one of the key bits about this fence though, is that that the Woodland Trust is now focusing very heavily on sustainability with everything it does. The, the, the reduction in use of plastic is one of those key bits. But these are sweet chestnut posts, so they there's no chemical preservatives in them or anything like that, and they're kind of the the the main posts at the corners, if you like, of the fence. And then we're using a metal fence with metal posts and and the idea is that when the trees have grown up after 20 years and they're no longer a threat from the deer, we can take this and reuse it elsewhere, so we're constantly thinking about that sustainability stuff all the time. Adam: Right. So we're in this more protected field. Which I can see has been laid out actually. Is this for the planting scheme, little posts and sort of lines of rope? Paul: Yeah. So one of the issues with going plastic free is it becomes very difficult to actually see what you've planted. Because if you look at here it just still looks like a field but actually there's somewhere in the region of well around 2 to 3000 trees already in there. Adam: Oh gosh, I didn't realise that. So yes, with the plastic safe, plastic guards on a tree you see these white telescopes sticking up all over the field, so there's thousands of trees here, we just can't see them. Right and a a lot of that has been planted by volunteers? Paul: We've had somewhere in the region of 400-500 members of the public come over four days, so we've got a a set of volunteers who have who've have have they've been brilliant actually, they've come and they've helped kind of manage all the public and they've helped work with the schools, they've helped us set out where the trees are going, we couldn't have done it without them at all. And here is one of our volunteers now, here's Sally. Adam: Brilliant. Alright, well, let's go over and chat to Sally. So Sally. Sally Burton. Hello. So I've heard lots of lovely things about you. So just tell me you're a volunteer, which in this context means what? Sally: Hello. That's nice. All sorts of things. I've helped this in during February with the public planting days and with the school planting days, helped children dig holes, some of the children are too small to get the spade in the ground very easily. I've planted quite a lot of trees myself. Adam: And why why did you get involved? Sally: I'd been looking for a while to volunteer for an organisation that does things outdoors and something a bit physical and so when the Woodland Trust appeared in the village hall I just went up and said do you need volunteers and they said yes please so I signed up straight away. Adam: And I mean, what does it offer you? Why is it a fun thing to do? Sally: I enjoy working with the other people. The staff are great and the other volunteers have been great fun. In fact, I've reconnected with someone I knew a few years ago and she's been helping up here as well, so that's been great. I like being outside, I love being outdoors. I don't mind about the weather. I like doing physical things and it's it's great to see, to make a difference. Adam: So yeah, so what what sort of difference do you feel you're making then? Sally: Well contributing to turning this basically what looks like an empty field into a forest. That's really amazing. People have been very excited about it. Lots of local people came up and planted on the public open days. Everyone's looking forward to being able to come up here and experience it themselves and enjoy the trees and the views obviously the views across the estuary and out to sea are beautiful. And there are lots of birds already. It's a very beautiful place. Adam: And so how much of your time does it actually take up? Sally: Well, during February and the beginning of March, quite a lot, I've been coming up for days, getting here about 8:15 and going home about 4 o'clock. Adam: Right. So why is that, why is that the the busy period? Sally: Because that's when the tree planting has been going on. Adam: First time you've ever planted a tree? Sally: I've planted a couple on my allotment, but certainly the first time I've planted on such a scale. Adam: Right. Have you kept count, how many trees are you in? Sally: No. Well, on one of the public planting days, I'd finished registering people and I planted 25 I kept count of those and on Wednesday this week, a school was in and when they cleared off, I finished planting the trees in their little area. And I think there was about 30 there. I'm not sure I lost count after about 12. Adam: There should be scouts or sort of brownie badges, shouldn't there, I'm I'm 100 tree-er, you know. Very good. Fantastic. Well, look, thank you very much. I can't believe this is the the the the field in which you've planted. Sally: It is, you can't see many of the trees. Adam: I I can't see any of the trees, what do you mean many of them. Ohh a couple yes. Sally: Across there you can see some with leaves on those are sessile oaks which were planted a little while ago, and they show up. Adam: Any of those yours? Sally: Possibly *laughs* They show up because of the leaves. But over there, most of the area there is planted. Adam: OK, brilliant. You're talking about planting, Rachel has appeared over the hill. She's brandishing a erm Sally: A spade. Adam: A spade *laughs* I forgot the name. You can see how ill equipped I am to do this. I forgot the name of what she's, so I think she's tempting us to go plant so let's go off. Adam: *coughs* Sorry, I'm already having a heart attack from the idea of physical exercise, I haven't done anything yet. OK, so we we have a spade and this is a virgin bit of land, no, no trees planted yet? Sally: No trees in this section yet. Adam: So I get the honour of planting the first tree. Sally: The first one. Adam: So you're gonna talk me through this and I'm gonna. Sally: So the first job... Adam: Oh yes alright, I'm already jumping ahead of myself. Sally: The first job is to screef? To screef the area... Adam: What what is what is screefing? Sally: ...which is where you do this to kick away the grass with your shoe to make a square or an area to get rid of the grass, doesn't have to be too big, not much wider than the blade of the spade, put the spade in there, and then don't lift it yet come round that side and make a square on that side. Yeah, cut it down. Then on that side... Adam: I feel I've hit the... Sally: One of the pebbles. And then the final side and then you could probably lever out a lump of turf. Adam: Then I can lift it out. Sally: OK, here's a tree. And we need to make sure when it's in the hole, the soil covers up to just above the top of the the highest root. So if we test that, that's not deep enough, so need to go deeper. Adam: It's not deep enough. Overall, I'm not doing particularly well I have to say. Sally: Let's have a look. That's looking good there. Adam: You think that's all right? Sally: Yeah, that's OK. So the next job is to crumble the soil. Adam: With our hands? Sally: With our hands, back into the hole, loose bits first. Adam: They didn't say I was actually gonna get my hands dirty. Sally: *laughs* And then if you've got any clods that have got grass on them make sure they go in with the grass facing down. Adam: Ok do you know why? Sally: So that the grass will die and then it won't be in competition with the tree as the grass uses a lot of the water. Adam: It's a bit leaning a bit, isn't it? Sally: It is a bit, let's push some more soil in. Adam: You see, it's fine now, in 20 years time, someone will come and go, who the hell planted that tree, it's at 45 degrees! Sally: Then the last job is you stand up. Adam: Yeah, stand up. Sally: And use your heel to press the soil down to push out all the gaps so that it doesn't dry out if it's sunny. Adam: And how compact, we don't want to make it too compact. Sally: Quite firm, quite firm. Adam: Yeah? Do you know what I don't, I feel that's leaning, that's no good. Sally: Don't worry, it'll straighten itself up. And the final thing is you do the tug test. Where you just get hold of it and just pull it gently. And if it stays where it is, then it's planted properly. Adam: I name this tree, well and truly planted. Sally: Congratulations. Adam: Thank you very much. Very good. That's brilliant. Well, I have to say although me and Sally were planting, Rachel and Paul were looking were looking on. So Paul's still here, how did I do? Paul: Well, let me just check, shall I? Adam: *laughs* You're doing the tug test. Paul: It's it's been really fun actually with with, with the the the public when you come and kind of just check it, you can see them all hold their breath to make sure they're doing it right. Adam: And it comes out *laughs* Is it alright? Paul: No, it's grand. Absolutely brilliant. Dog rose it, it's a little bit crooked, but you know dog rose will naturally straighten itself up. Adam: Will it correct itself? Paul: Yeah and it's kind of you can already see it's a bit of a straggly thing and it'll do its thing and it'll be fine. Adam: Fantastic. What is your sense, really, of of what this might be in the future and how exciting is that for you? Paul: I think in the future, you know, we're we're we're we've got something here that at the very beginning that is gonna be hopefully really important for wildlife and that most of the design is about trying to get as much wildlife here as possible because we're close to the pebblebed heaths it will it will act as a little bit of a refuge in the heat as potentially the climate heats up in the future and that's all really brilliant. And then the other exciting bit is the fact that we've started from the beginning with people involved. That, that, that scenario, but when you look in the future, the you know the the trees that we're planting today are going to be like these big old oak trees in 3-4 hundred years time that when you get your head around it is really quite amazing. And these trees and this wood will be on maps in in the future, and you know, we're creating history, we're changing landscapes and it's all such a a positive thing to be involved in. Adam: That is amazing that in 3-4 hundred years there'll be a woodland here, the history of who planted it, the history of us being here today will be lost. They won't know who planted these trees perhaps, they won't know the story, but the trees will be here. They'll be there, they'll tell their own story in the future. It's an amazing thing to be part of isn't it. Paul: Yeah and you know if if you think about how many times do you get to do something that will still be here in three, four, 500 years time? That's just incredible. Adam: Well, if you want to find a wood near you and don't have any idea of where to look, do go to the Woodland Trust website and its woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood, so that's woodlandtrust.org.uk/findawood. Until next time, happy wandering. Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks with Adam Shaw. Join us next month, when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. Don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to podcast@woodlandtrust.org.uk. We look forward to hearing from you.

The world is full of “almost” Christians. But what does that mean? And what keeps someone from fully surrendering to Jesus? In Acts 28, we read how King Agrippa was “almost” a Christian. He understood Jewish culture. He knew the prophecies recorded in Jewish scripture. He acknowledged the logic of Paul's argument and couldn't counter it. Yet Agrippa couldn't surrender to Jesus. Why? There were 4 things standing in the way of King Agrippa moving from “almost” Christian to full surrender to Christ. Seduction Pride Family Religion Acts 26:28 says… “Then Agrippa said to Paul ‘You almost persuade me to become a Christian.'” Join Pastor Phil as he teaches… About the 4 reasons Agrippa was “almost persuaded” What “almost” Christians fear the most The biblical leadership principles we can learn through this passage Let's continue to journey through the book of Acts and discover what biblical leadership looks like and how we can live and lead by the Spirit of God. Don't forget to click the “bell” to SUBSCRIBE to get more videos like this to grow your faith! Connect with us on Social Media ↴ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abundantlifels/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abundantlifels Connect with Pastor Phil ↴ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PhilHopperKC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/philhopper_kc/ Web: https://livingproof.co/about-us/pastor-phil/ Get the FREE download to go with this series, “Biblical Leadership Principles: Learning from the Book of Acts”: https://livingproof.co/biblical-leadership-principles-acts/ More information on our sermons: https://livingproof.co/sermons/ Do you want to see your life changed by Jesus? Visit our website: https://livingproof.co/

Paul Reilly is the author of the best-selling book Selling Through Tough Times, as well as a renowned speaker, and sales trainer. He dives into the topic of uncertainty and why it actually has a ton of value to salespeople. Difficult times present a unique opportunity for sellers to demonstrate leadership. Paul explains that economic downturns push salespeople to get creative and provide information that reassures the buyer in making the right decision. Paul also discusses how to communicate stability and perceived value. HIGHLIGHT QUOTES Uncertainty creates an opportunity to help lead customers - Paul: "Anytime there is uncertainty, your customers, your decision-makers, they're looking for guidance. They're looking for ways to eliminate risk. They're looking for individuals who possess the knowledge, the expertise to help guide them through uncertainty. So it could be uncertainty about the economic state of... what's going on right now. It could be just uncertainty in a specific industry. People are looking to absorb information to make the best possible decision." Perceived value raises the buyer's expectations - Paul: "Perceived value is also an important aspect of selling because, as buyers make decisions, they're constantly weighing out, okay, is this worth it? All right, I'm looking at this solution. Here's what I sacrifice. Here's what I potentially gain. Is that exchange worth it? And if they believe it's fair and you can add more value or provide a greater overall value than your competition, you have a good chance at winning that deal." Deliver on big promises to become a market leader - Paul: "You got to make big promises. Not unrealistic promises, but big promises. And then you deliver on that. And not only that, but when you influence the buyer's expectations by making big promises you become the benchmark from which every other option is graded." Find out more about Paul and get his book in the links below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/salescustomerservice/ Website: https://www.toughtimer.com/ More on Andy: Connect on LinkedIn Get Andy's new book "Sell Without Selling Out" on Amazon Learn more at AndyPaul.com Sponsored by: Revenue.io | Unlock exponential growth with an AI-powered RevOps platform | Revenue.io Scratchpad | The fastest way to update Salesforce, take sales notes, and stay on top of to-dos | Scratchpad.com Blueboard | World's leading experiential rewards & recognition platform | Blueboard.com Explore the Revenue.io Podcast Universe: Sales Enablement Podcast RevOps Podcast Selling with Purpose Podcast

“I sit for an hour and I get to know the neighbours - the more than human neighbours.” Paul Bulencea is an experience designer focused on the nature of the transformational experience. He has created many experience concepts globally and is currently focusing on collaborating with wilderness to spark and maintain a much needed shift in perception. He is the co-founder of the College of Extraordinary Experiences, a global gathering that takes place in a 13th century castle in Poland with the aim of exploring the field of experience design. He is the co-author of Gamification in Tourism: Designing Memorable Experiences and is currently working on a second book about guiding transformations.  https://linktr.ee/DavidPearl Timeline 00.00 - 00.44 Intro Theme 00.46 - 04.32 Introducing Paul Bulencea 04.34 - 06.20  Native Seed Shakers 06.25 - 09.40 Noticing the wilderness in the city 11.41 - 14.08 Creating edible landscapes 14.08 - 18.56 Community Supported Agriculture 18.56 - 21.50 Deconditioning industrial thinking 23.00 - How to do a ‘sit spot' - connecting with nature 26.45 - 28.00 Honey (a sit-spot poem) 28.00 - 33.38 Wanderful Exercise: The Sit Spot 33.40 - Epilogue: The bells! The bells! Quotes “When you're looking for wildlife, you will be surprised at the amount of wildlife in the cities… but that's where the food is.” (Paul) “You can eat all mushrooms, but some of them you can only eat once.” (Paul) “What if we had cities inside edible landscapes?.” (Paul) “We're eating very few edible crops. We cultivate very few because we have this industrial thinking.” (Paul) “This push for consistency - what's so great about consistency?” (David) “I sit for an hour and I get to know the neighbours - the more than human neighbours.” (Paul) Further Information Community Supported Agriculture - https://communitysupportedagriculture.org.uk/ George Monibot - Regenesis - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/317018/regenesis-by-monbiot-george/9780241447642 The plant David is sitting next to…we think…any knowledgeable horticulturalists, let us know! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerodendrum_infortunatum Links Paul Bulencea (Guest) www.extraordinary.college https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulbulencea/ Instagram @paul.bulencea David Pearl (Host) Twitter @DavidPearlHere Instagram @davidpearl_here Website www.davidpearl.net Andrew Paine (Producer & Audio Engineer) Twitter @ItPainesMe The Green Room at COP26 - What (On Earth's) The Story? Full film: https://youtu.be/UWoO9UmWscM Trailer: https://youtu.be/zmQqj5WHSPM

DILLON HART FRANCIS is laying in a lush green meadow, centered in a field of daisies dressed in all white. Though I'm not sure we're meant to be, I'm sure that we could be; Or have been— But that's just me; My memory expands further than the eyes see; You're like me, But likely, Another lesson I need So here I am Rolling in the deep Keeping secrets, Sleeping with my grip Tightly wrapped around the key; A lock that doesn't open, Another thing I don't need; And I don't need you, But I'm thinking that I probably shouldn't think I need a drink— (Of love) Another drink— (Of blood) It's something wonderful, or was A pigeon turned to dove, And then a duck, Right before my eyes I'd be lying if I said I never cried so much Over one Lustful Stunning Something What? You woke me up for nothing I was someone in my dream, And now I'm up, And I'm no one I'm no one, huh But funny, sometimes Why me? I just keep on writing, I just keep on writing I just keep on writing I'm deprived, I'm not alive anymore— No one ever loved me before. He certainly must be dead; he thinks; his bright blue eyes glisten in the light, and as they begin to change, one single daisy stands out to him–unmoving, he stares at it, her petals rustling in the light breeze of the wind, however–they, too, begin to change. He takes a slow, deep breath in, still, however unmoving, as the daisy seemingly begins to dance and glisten; now he seem curious at best, but still unmoved. The daisy begins to flutter and twinkle, dazzling as the light seems to move around it, the meadow fading into a picturesque blur as the flower blooms, now changing color into a swirling array of flashing colors, now emitting a lulling hum– a peaceful and calming lullaby of frequencies and tones, cosmic and otherworldly and yet somehow natural and familiar Dillon becomes flush with bewilderment and awe, as the daisy continues to flash strobing patterns of lights and colors, now opening and growing as its petals stretch out, reaching into a flush and glorious cascade of pure white light–as his eyes widen, he moves slightly towards it; it opens up and swallows him whole. INT. LIVING ROOM. DAY THOMAS WESLEY PENTZ is slightly stunned, still glued to his screen; his good friend DILLON FRANCIS, an actor, has invited him over to watch his newest movie. What the fuck. The daisy returns to its natural state, and a warm wind blows through the sunlit field. FADE TO BLACK. What the fuck did I just see. I swear, you're in the weirdest movies, dude – He turns to his side to see an empty space on the course where Dillon had once been sitting. Dillon? He looks about the room confusedly, then pauses the movie, getting up from the couch and starting to the kitchen. Dillon. Your movie's weird, bro. However, the kitchen is empty. He approaches the counter, where GERALD is placed–he looks awkwardly at the pinata, staring into his eyes before turning it around. Ugh. He departs to search for Dillon in the bathroom. Dillon! Where you at, bro? I paused the movie! He checks the bathroom; also empty. YO! He turns down the hallway, hearing the sound of the shower running– Are you in the shower? No response. I'm not about to come into your shower bro; it's weird and random that you're in the shower when you invited me over to watch your movie. Still, no response. Bro! Again, silence–the shower continues running. Alright…you better not be naked. He steps into the master bedroom, the steam of the hot shower crawling out of the master bathroom and into the bedroom. Are you okay? He winces as he looks into the master bathroom, shower running at full power and the room filled with steam, to the point that even the roof is condensating; a drop of water drips from the ceiling and into his left eye– –fuck– –rubbing his eye, he observes the room to be empty–his friend is nowhere to be found; He is in the house alone. --- It's was incredible magic, even if it was my own—and I didn't exactly know that it was, or at least not surely, as my day had been anything but enjoyable, not that I was allowing myself to be convinced of such—The Secret had at best instilled the fake it till you make it technique of always being “good”, even when you were bad—and that there was no such thing as being bad, even if you were feeling it; and that if you were feeling it, you were just allowing yourself to feel it. Everything is always good all the time no matter what—bad thoughts and feelings were a result of something you were lacking—something you were doing wrong—though, really, there was no wrongdoing, as for the truly practical use of The Secret says that everything that happens is with purpose; the power the awareness of that purpose, and the consistent application of that purpose no matter what action or circumstance. --- Describe this feeling. I don't know. Does it hurt? Kind of. But— But— Did you cry? I didn't cry. Good. I wanted to. Good. There was no way I could finish The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction, or The 33 Strategies of War by Sunday; but, already knowing the 48 laws of power, I understood that even attending Dillon Francis's show would be an obvious forfeit to whatever game we were playing; it indeed was war, and as my fragile mind psychologically bent and twisted, wondering why it was I couldn't let Dillon out of my hindsight, foresight, or insight for much more than a brief moment; there was something powerful at play if not my own mind, crafting the world into a game which was fixed in my favor. However, this day was odd, with no reason or rhyme—and now I was burning with a new sense; one with which I couldn't do anything, and though far from stalemate my next series of moves would have to be played well in order to peacefully withdraw from the match. It was a different feeling entirely than with Kayla Lauren—and however fickle it may have seemed, it was still some sort of hurt— though, rather than a deep stab wound which pierced through my heart and straight into my soul, instead it was in fact a fire, which burned in my chest and, although in the place where my heart once might have been—an incinerator of panic and frenzy of chaotic, mischievous unrest had welled up inside of me. There she was— I assumed, the blockage I had sensed admirably, having prayed for peace and happiness, However—it was clear that in all the nonsense I had indeed become attached and outright infatuated with the idea of obsessively wanting Dillon Francis, which had, admítedly halted the overall creative action in anything including him in The Festival Project, and though there were still subtle hints of things maybe even going my way—I had to find something, anything that would help me cling to rational, stable thoughts. I had, after all—just wanted a [expletive]—and now with any luck or without any grief I could find one, without having the image of his face or his eyes burned into my mind. I had a healthy denial of having fallen in love with him; after Sonny, there was no love—and there certainly wasn't any falling into it, especially not with Dillon Francis. Now I had to do everything I could to at least rid myself in the very least of everything I had written of him, I was looking forward to somehow disbanding the account and all things associated with it, as I was sure any monitors, trackers, or hacks were to be through there, and—as things seemed to have gotten serious in one way or another, with the “demon” coughs still following me everywhere I went, mostly possessing the bodies of white, skinny women—I couldn't trust that whatever was being done was being done to anyone but SupaCree—as no one yet even knew my true new name, besides the social security administration, and I had long since gathered that it it was indeed my own United States government trying to kill me, or rather, have me kill myself—they had by now realized I was more of a valuable asset to keep around in some way, if not just for my intellectual rarity alone. The fact was, I wanted but not needed Dillon Francis—and as painful as it was to simply subsist in medocrity and corporate slavery, I knew myself to be powerful enough at least on my own to be constantly stalked, watched, and followed—and by Some standards or whatever other interests, I was valuable enough for consideration, but also replaceable enough to be let go. I had nothing else to live for, and so cared less either way, but having the weight of The Great Big Book Of Dillon Francis off my shoulders would at least allow whatever would take place thereafter to be duty-free. She was long and frail looking, at least by the arms and the hands, and the shot was perfect enough that I could only know one thing about her, even watching the video multiple times. I didn't know why I was there, but something was scratching and gripping at me to look, and so I did—and to my atrocious delight, there was a woman beside him—stuffing the innards of a double double with hot fries—the kind I used to like: I was at least glad it didn't show her biting Into the mess, but I had already seen Kayla Lauren do so, minus the hot fries, in her very own In-N-Out commercial; this, however wsd just a hand model—a demon dressed as a woman showing off what she could do that I couldn't—and Dillon unremarkably making a statement, as if to say without saying “things I can do with her.” The next slide, however, took and shook me, prompting me to realize I would have to change all of the names in my upcoming would-be novel, had I ever the time to finish it—of the means to put a middle or end to it, as it just seemed ever-never-ending. [EDIT] The dog in the photo nearly distracted me from essentially the most shocking thing I could have ever fathomed seeing on Instagram, and actually rocked me at the core; nearly vomiting with excitement or confusion, neither of which I could place, and setting the aforementioned fire with a gaseous fume—I played the story over in a fit of rage, and for the next few hours I would come to again question my own being and existence, unable to place my feelings but however, fully aware of them, unable to understand what they exactly were and why they were there. Now, I had probably another album underfoot, and though I was as wordless as ever, there was something to be said about the fit of fury and rage that was inescapable, the tears I had been able to hold back in the early morning hours that same day finally pouring out, as now I was certainly again in the grips of deep growing pains, none of which were wanted or needed, nor was I ready for. It was a dangerous, disastrous love—or something enough like it to be equally as painful and destructive. Everyone had a Kayla Lauren, and here I was, trapped in a body too big and too black to be cared for in the way I had only ever wanted or needed; at least by anyone I was actually drawn to, which was in itself a rarity. Hell indeed hath no fury. Auto-Magic Don't stop me now Uh I'm on auto-Matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Daddy's home Yo— I gota boner Or bone in my body to roam I'm going rio-to roam. You do not know me I am not lonely, But no beef with my rice-aroni, No cheese Oh please don't need me I was just sleeping I am the king of kings You see me, Jesus? He be calling on me We don't sleep Where are you mr mau5 They call me mr mouth They call me mr mouth I'm here to eat you O-o-o-o-out The limit is 5; Times it by 9 Now that's a new paradigm, I blend it up with lime A Diamond Now you are mine; I am your mind I am time Bruh. I like what I like I have to hype you up, You have to buy me Blimey, my— you're suicidy. Fuck. Grow up. I just opened up a notebook, Now I'm shook, Don't look And don't look me up, I'm a muffin, Crunchy, But no nuts What? Shut up. Bruh. Oh. It's you again. I think I'm in love with Being In love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Love with Love with Love with— Being with— Love Love is Love is Love is Being in Love is Love is Love is Being with Love js Love js Love is Being in Love is Love is Love js Being—- Love Is In You Oh. Diplo & SIDEPEICE on your mind Sometimes I Try a little harder Do a little more Work a little longer Thinking of you I —- One day I'll be perfect One day I'll be famous One day I'll be a shining star You'll wish upon me; But I'm far away now, I'm far away now “One day I'll be pretty”, she said ‘One day you'll be with me', she thinks One day there will be no secrets, or regrets But that's far away now, Far away now Here we go Alright, alright You all strapped in? I'll be here all night, all night One day I'll be famous, Nameless said I'm saying grace at picnic tables Lady Faith ain't reading fables I think I'm disabled, maybe Run like a horse out the stable This is unstable This is unhealthy This is unwritten; This is a fairly tale! Very well, Very well written Hot as hell isn't it? Isn't it intermission yet? I'm still on a mission; I still haven't read the texts I'm still sitting in smitten, Drifting, but I haven't driven in centuries Sifting and lifting my misery into Ascension This my invention: I need invitations for Satan's epiphany What it is? Skinny as Whitney, Stiff as a skeleton No more jello-or gelatin Animal product again— Hey this is my agent, or management; Animal planet isn't as infinite as history channel If I wear a flannel to funural Call it a habit or programming— Haven't I had it? Goddammit, my dad is just Random I miss him I can't take advantage I'm packing my bags for the promised land Plane hasn't landed yet I just made management Damaged like can in the back of a What the fuck is that thing? What? What is THAT? A semi truck. What's it for? Uh… Sometimes God asks questions I can't answer I gotta get to Alaska I think I'm crashing rapidly Yeah, I'd eat a can on spam for my dad I'm having a panic attack But I'm laughing out loud Cause the law of attraction says Disaster is A product of imagination— And mine is bigger than Disney's If you're gonna miss me, Admit it Cause I'm disappearing I mean it I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska A flatline Can't be Gotta get back on time Gotta sing like Whitney Shit you not I'm not kidding This shit has got to be Offa my rocker Or rocking chair Dad, I'm a rockstar I'll be right there A delayed reaction A trap; A plan to get me back to alaska “I'm a trash can” I'm a beautiful black man Man, This is savage, I can't handle this madness Where's my man Where's my mantras? I am a Grammy winner I am an Oscar winner I am an Emmy Winner I am a Tony winner Blow me Get below me You owe me You don't own me I'm the only one who knows me Okay I'll eat banana cream pie Just don't die on me Just don't lie Like there's no time Please believe me The only Interaction with Jesus I need Is pleading Please don't leave me hanging, dang I'm on my way Don't hate me for praying Don't hate me Hey, Don't take this the wrong way I only changed my name To get away from A murderer I'm sorry It's all my mistakes I— I'm wasting away I'm wasting away I'm wasting my days procrastinating And eating cupcakes I'm a size 4 I'm adorable, But what will I do with these legs Eggs and bacon Any day of the week And some pancakes, please Anything for my daddy Anything Underwater plays on the radio station I'm an over eater, but not lately Haven't been sleeping Haven't been playing the game that I made up I'm an alien No, I'm an Alaskan With black skin Pity the fool, But I can't pity you Maybe time for the pool But can't stop a panic attack When it's happening Dad. Wait for me. Don't leave me with mom Please Please Take it easy The universe doesn't understand Don't Or know But I hope she won't Take him away from me Before I see him again Radiation I hate this X-ray machine A display of hate I'm so mean when I'm hungry Just trying to be as lean as I can be Just want to be happy Just want to be me, and I mean it I see you see me I see you see me, too I see you in me, too I see myself in you, But I'm selfish boo, so unusual So, so cruel Eat a spoonful of Fuck you, dude Watch YouTube to get in the mood I pity the fool But don't pity you You're just shitty And I'm in your living room Wishing to just end it By admission, I didn't risk it all Just to Envy you And I don't And I can't And I won't Have it bad? I don't believe you I can't see through anything with the Steam on my lenses No steam room Stream of consciousness says Get out of bed, From midnight to noon I'm a human I'm dead in the eyes I'm dead serious One minute to write And I'm furious Curious Put me on ice; This is ludachris Losing my life to a human Some bullshit Digital love >< the veldt Discoveries to Discovery (That's Daft Punk) I'm in no hurry; Have a McFlurry If life isn't wonderful Isn't it wonderful Isn't it dumb when you wonder what month it is Isn't this physics Collision of science and violent One tiny violin, silence Displayed as the sermon is read Syrup with bread, or something Guess I'm inbred, but well-read, or something Guess we'll wear red, or something Guess I'm just dead, With no regrets Surfing the internet, or something I'm channel tres Let me express my regrets, Or regression Excersise to exsicion, Expression Express self check out I'm wrecked, Write a check out To bounce Where's Mr. Mau5 I'm still Mr. Mouth, I'm sour Didn't forget where this started but It's been 5 hours and I'm just now feeling the power I got you a flower, Now I'm the man of the hour, Turn the page I'm starting to look my age, I'm Starting to have nice legs, I'm Starting to miss the stage a bit I'm starting to see the deficit to my attention Split the Bill, and fit the picture Simply put, I miss her, I miss him I miss this I miss that— I'm miss América under this hat I'm African American, yeah I'm black— Well, half In the back of the pack With a sandwhich This is a masterpiece Or just an album Or just a - - - Or just a problem Or just another mistake I made I'm starting to look my age, I'm a raisin in the sun Having fun yet? Not without a flat stomach And a gun, To blow my head off, Cause I never got it That's raw, huh? “I'm awesome” “I'm so lost.” I'm an apostle, Paul You got it all wrong; Imposter God with an awful lot of pasta Without any sauce Cause that's got carbs in it.. And I'm made of carbon or something But not for long— $10 an hour? So wrong Get me off this rock. It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so I'm always too me to be you— Till you need me to; Now there are two in this room, And it's blu in full bloom, I assume, Make some room for me Build a tomb for me, in your womb Don't bury me Burn me instead If I'm worthy “The earth, My creation” —she said. The end. (But it isn't, It's infinite.) Amen

DILLON HART FRANCIS is laying in a lush green meadow, centered in a field of daisies dressed in all white. Though I'm not sure we're meant to be, I'm sure that we could be; Or have been— But that's just me; My memory expands further than the eyes see; You're like me, But likely, Another lesson I need So here I am Rolling in the deep Keeping secrets, Sleeping with my grip Tightly wrapped around the key; A lock that doesn't open, Another thing I don't need; And I don't need you, But I'm thinking that I probably shouldn't think I need a drink— (Of love) Another drink— (Of blood) It's something wonderful, or was A pigeon turned to dove, And then a duck, Right before my eyes I'd be lying if I said I never cried so much Over one Lustful Stunning Something What? You woke me up for nothing I was someone in my dream, And now I'm up, And I'm no one I'm no one, huh But funny, sometimes Why me? I just keep on writing, I just keep on writing I just keep on writing I'm deprived, I'm not alive anymore— No one ever loved me before. He certainly must be dead; he thinks; his bright blue eyes glisten in the light, and as they begin to change, one single daisy stands out to him–unmoving, he stares at it, her petals rustling in the light breeze of the wind, however–they, too, begin to change. He takes a slow, deep breath in, still, however unmoving, as the daisy seemingly begins to dance and glisten; now he seem curious at best, but still unmoved. The daisy begins to flutter and twinkle, dazzling as the light seems to move around it, the meadow fading into a picturesque blur as the flower blooms, now changing color into a swirling array of flashing colors, now emitting a lulling hum– a peaceful and calming lullaby of frequencies and tones, cosmic and otherworldly and yet somehow natural and familiar Dillon becomes flush with bewilderment and awe, as the daisy continues to flash strobing patterns of lights and colors, now opening and growing as its petals stretch out, reaching into a flush and glorious cascade of pure white light–as his eyes widen, he moves slightly towards it; it opens up and swallows him whole. INT. LIVING ROOM. DAY THOMAS WESLEY PENTZ is slightly stunned, still glued to his screen; his good friend DILLON FRANCIS, an actor, has invited him over to watch his newest movie. What the fuck. The daisy returns to its natural state, and a warm wind blows through the sunlit field. FADE TO BLACK. What the fuck did I just see. I swear, you're in the weirdest movies, dude – He turns to his side to see an empty space on the course where Dillon had once been sitting. Dillon? He looks about the room confusedly, then pauses the movie, getting up from the couch and starting to the kitchen. Dillon. Your movie's weird, bro. However, the kitchen is empty. He approaches the counter, where GERALD is placed–he looks awkwardly at the pinata, staring into his eyes before turning it around. Ugh. He departs to search for Dillon in the bathroom. Dillon! Where you at, bro? I paused the movie! He checks the bathroom; also empty. YO! He turns down the hallway, hearing the sound of the shower running– Are you in the shower? No response. I'm not about to come into your shower bro; it's weird and random that you're in the shower when you invited me over to watch your movie. Still, no response. Bro! Again, silence–the shower continues running. Alright…you better not be naked. He steps into the master bedroom, the steam of the hot shower crawling out of the master bathroom and into the bedroom. Are you okay? He winces as he looks into the master bathroom, shower running at full power and the room filled with steam, to the point that even the roof is condensating; a drop of water drips from the ceiling and into his left eye– –fuck– –rubbing his eye, he observes the room to be empty–his friend is nowhere to be found; He is in the house alone. --- It's was incredible magic, even if it was my own—and I didn't exactly know that it was, or at least not surely, as my day had been anything but enjoyable, not that I was allowing myself to be convinced of such—The Secret had at best instilled the fake it till you make it technique of always being “good”, even when you were bad—and that there was no such thing as being bad, even if you were feeling it; and that if you were feeling it, you were just allowing yourself to feel it. Everything is always good all the time no matter what—bad thoughts and feelings were a result of something you were lacking—something you were doing wrong—though, really, there was no wrongdoing, as for the truly practical use of The Secret says that everything that happens is with purpose; the power the awareness of that purpose, and the consistent application of that purpose no matter what action or circumstance. --- Describe this feeling. I don't know. Does it hurt? Kind of. But— But— Did you cry? I didn't cry. Good. I wanted to. Good. There was no way I could finish The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction, or The 33 Strategies of War by Sunday; but, already knowing the 48 laws of power, I understood that even attending Dillon Francis's show would be an obvious forfeit to whatever game we were playing; it indeed was war, and as my fragile mind psychologically bent and twisted, wondering why it was I couldn't let Dillon out of my hindsight, foresight, or insight for much more than a brief moment; there was something powerful at play if not my own mind, crafting the world into a game which was fixed in my favor. However, this day was odd, with no reason or rhyme—and now I was burning with a new sense; one with which I couldn't do anything, and though far from stalemate my next series of moves would have to be played well in order to peacefully withdraw from the match. It was a different feeling entirely than with Kayla Lauren—and however fickle it may have seemed, it was still some sort of hurt— though, rather than a deep stab wound which pierced through my heart and straight into my soul, instead it was in fact a fire, which burned in my chest and, although in the place where my heart once might have been—an incinerator of panic and frenzy of chaotic, mischievous unrest had welled up inside of me. There she was— I assumed, the blockage I had sensed admirably, having prayed for peace and happiness, However—it was clear that in all the nonsense I had indeed become attached and outright infatuated with the idea of obsessively wanting Dillon Francis, which had, admítedly halted the overall creative action in anything including him in The Festival Project, and though there were still subtle hints of things maybe even going my way—I had to find something, anything that would help me cling to rational, stable thoughts. I had, after all—just wanted a [expletive]—and now with any luck or without any grief I could find one, without having the image of his face or his eyes burned into my mind. I had a healthy denial of having fallen in love with him; after Sonny, there was no love—and there certainly wasn't any falling into it, especially not with Dillon Francis. Now I had to do everything I could to at least rid myself in the very least of everything I had written of him, I was looking forward to somehow disbanding the account and all things associated with it, as I was sure any monitors, trackers, or hacks were to be through there, and—as things seemed to have gotten serious in one way or another, with the “demon” coughs still following me everywhere I went, mostly possessing the bodies of white, skinny women—I couldn't trust that whatever was being done was being done to anyone but SupaCree—as no one yet even knew my true new name, besides the social security administration, and I had long since gathered that it it was indeed my own United States government trying to kill me, or rather, have me kill myself—they had by now realized I was more of a valuable asset to keep around in some way, if not just for my intellectual rarity alone. The fact was, I wanted but not needed Dillon Francis—and as painful as it was to simply subsist in medocrity and corporate slavery, I knew myself to be powerful enough at least on my own to be constantly stalked, watched, and followed—and by Some standards or whatever other interests, I was valuable enough for consideration, but also replaceable enough to be let go. I had nothing else to live for, and so cared less either way, but having the weight of The Great Big Book Of Dillon Francis off my shoulders would at least allow whatever would take place thereafter to be duty-free. She was long and frail looking, at least by the arms and the hands, and the shot was perfect enough that I could only know one thing about her, even watching the video multiple times. I didn't know why I was there, but something was scratching and gripping at me to look, and so I did—and to my atrocious delight, there was a woman beside him—stuffing the innards of a double double with hot fries—the kind I used to like: I was at least glad it didn't show her biting Into the mess, but I had already seen Kayla Lauren do so, minus the hot fries, in her very own In-N-Out commercial; this, however wsd just a hand model—a demon dressed as a woman showing off what she could do that I couldn't—and Dillon unremarkably making a statement, as if to say without saying “things I can do with her.” The next slide, however, took and shook me, prompting me to realize I would have to change all of the names in my upcoming would-be novel, had I ever the time to finish it—of the means to put a middle or end to it, as it just seemed ever-never-ending. [EDIT] The dog in the photo nearly distracted me from essentially the most shocking thing I could have ever fathomed seeing on Instagram, and actually rocked me at the core; nearly vomiting with excitement or confusion, neither of which I could place, and setting the aforementioned fire with a gaseous fume—I played the story over in a fit of rage, and for the next few hours I would come to again question my own being and existence, unable to place my feelings but however, fully aware of them, unable to understand what they exactly were and why they were there. Now, I had probably another album underfoot, and though I was as wordless as ever, there was something to be said about the fit of fury and rage that was inescapable, the tears I had been able to hold back in the early morning hours that same day finally pouring out, as now I was certainly again in the grips of deep growing pains, none of which were wanted or needed, nor was I ready for. It was a dangerous, disastrous love—or something enough like it to be equally as painful and destructive. Everyone had a Kayla Lauren, and here I was, trapped in a body too big and too black to be cared for in the way I had only ever wanted or needed; at least by anyone I was actually drawn to, which was in itself a rarity. Hell indeed hath no fury. Auto-Magic Don't stop me now Uh I'm on auto-Matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Daddy's home Yo— I gota boner Or bone in my body to roam I'm going rio-to roam. You do not know me I am not lonely, But no beef with my rice-aroni, No cheese Oh please don't need me I was just sleeping I am the king of kings You see me, Jesus? He be calling on me We don't sleep Where are you mr mau5 They call me mr mouth They call me mr mouth I'm here to eat you O-o-o-o-out The limit is 5; Times it by 9 Now that's a new paradigm, I blend it up with lime A Diamond Now you are mine; I am your mind I am time Bruh. I like what I like I have to hype you up, You have to buy me Blimey, my— you're suicidy. Fuck. Grow up. I just opened up a notebook, Now I'm shook, Don't look And don't look me up, I'm a muffin, Crunchy, But no nuts What? Shut up. Bruh. Oh. It's you again. I think I'm in love with Being In love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Love with Love with Love with— Being with— Love Love is Love is Love is Being in Love is Love is Love is Being with Love js Love js Love is Being in Love is Love is Love js Being—- Love Is In You Oh. Diplo & SIDEPEICE on your mind Sometimes I Try a little harder Do a little more Work a little longer Thinking of you I —- One day I'll be perfect One day I'll be famous One day I'll be a shining star You'll wish upon me; But I'm far away now, I'm far away now “One day I'll be pretty”, she said ‘One day you'll be with me', she thinks One day there will be no secrets, or regrets But that's far away now, Far away now Here we go Alright, alright You all strapped in? I'll be here all night, all night One day I'll be famous, Nameless said I'm saying grace at picnic tables Lady Faith ain't reading fables I think I'm disabled, maybe Run like a horse out the stable This is unstable This is unhealthy This is unwritten; This is a fairly tale! Very well, Very well written Hot as hell isn't it? Isn't it intermission yet? I'm still on a mission; I still haven't read the texts I'm still sitting in smitten, Drifting, but I haven't driven in centuries Sifting and lifting my misery into Ascension This my invention: I need invitations for Satan's epiphany What it is? Skinny as Whitney, Stiff as a skeleton No more jello-or gelatin Animal product again— Hey this is my agent, or management; Animal planet isn't as infinite as history channel If I wear a flannel to funural Call it a habit or programming— Haven't I had it? Goddammit, my dad is just Random I miss him I can't take advantage I'm packing my bags for the promised land Plane hasn't landed yet I just made management Damaged like can in the back of a What the fuck is that thing? What? What is THAT? A semi truck. What's it for? Uh… Sometimes God asks questions I can't answer I gotta get to Alaska I think I'm crashing rapidly Yeah, I'd eat a can on spam for my dad I'm having a panic attack But I'm laughing out loud Cause the law of attraction says Disaster is A product of imagination— And mine is bigger than Disney's If you're gonna miss me, Admit it Cause I'm disappearing I mean it I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska A flatline Can't be Gotta get back on time Gotta sing like Whitney Shit you not I'm not kidding This shit has got to be Offa my rocker Or rocking chair Dad, I'm a rockstar I'll be right there A delayed reaction A trap; A plan to get me back to alaska “I'm a trash can” I'm a beautiful black man Man, This is savage, I can't handle this madness Where's my man Where's my mantras? I am a Grammy winner I am an Oscar winner I am an Emmy Winner I am a Tony winner Blow me Get below me You owe me You don't own me I'm the only one who knows me Okay I'll eat banana cream pie Just don't die on me Just don't lie Like there's no time Please believe me The only Interaction with Jesus I need Is pleading Please don't leave me hanging, dang I'm on my way Don't hate me for praying Don't hate me Hey, Don't take this the wrong way I only changed my name To get away from A murderer I'm sorry It's all my mistakes I— I'm wasting away I'm wasting away I'm wasting my days procrastinating And eating cupcakes I'm a size 4 I'm adorable, But what will I do with these legs Eggs and bacon Any day of the week And some pancakes, please Anything for my daddy Anything Underwater plays on the radio station I'm an over eater, but not lately Haven't been sleeping Haven't been playing the game that I made up I'm an alien No, I'm an Alaskan With black skin Pity the fool, But I can't pity you Maybe time for the pool But can't stop a panic attack When it's happening Dad. Wait for me. Don't leave me with mom Please Please Take it easy The universe doesn't understand Don't Or know But I hope she won't Take him away from me Before I see him again Radiation I hate this X-ray machine A display of hate I'm so mean when I'm hungry Just trying to be as lean as I can be Just want to be happy Just want to be me, and I mean it I see you see me I see you see me, too I see you in me, too I see myself in you, But I'm selfish boo, so unusual So, so cruel Eat a spoonful of Fuck you, dude Watch YouTube to get in the mood I pity the fool But don't pity you You're just shitty And I'm in your living room Wishing to just end it By admission, I didn't risk it all Just to Envy you And I don't And I can't And I won't Have it bad? I don't believe you I can't see through anything with the Steam on my lenses No steam room Stream of consciousness says Get out of bed, From midnight to noon I'm a human I'm dead in the eyes I'm dead serious One minute to write And I'm furious Curious Put me on ice; This is ludachris Losing my life to a human Some bullshit Digital love >< the veldt Discoveries to Discovery (That's Daft Punk) I'm in no hurry; Have a McFlurry If life isn't wonderful Isn't it wonderful Isn't it dumb when you wonder what month it is Isn't this physics Collision of science and violent One tiny violin, silence Displayed as the sermon is read Syrup with bread, or something Guess I'm inbred, but well-read, or something Guess we'll wear red, or something Guess I'm just dead, With no regrets Surfing the internet, or something I'm channel tres Let me express my regrets, Or regression Excersise to exsicion, Expression Express self check out I'm wrecked, Write a check out To bounce Where's Mr. Mau5 I'm still Mr. Mouth, I'm sour Didn't forget where this started but It's been 5 hours and I'm just now feeling the power I got you a flower, Now I'm the man of the hour, Turn the page I'm starting to look my age, I'm Starting to have nice legs, I'm Starting to miss the stage a bit I'm starting to see the deficit to my attention Split the Bill, and fit the picture Simply put, I miss her, I miss him I miss this I miss that— I'm miss América under this hat I'm African American, yeah I'm black— Well, half In the back of the pack With a sandwhich This is a masterpiece Or just an album Or just a - - - Or just a problem Or just another mistake I made I'm starting to look my age, I'm a raisin in the sun Having fun yet? Not without a flat stomach And a gun, To blow my head off, Cause I never got it That's raw, huh? “I'm awesome” “I'm so lost.” I'm an apostle, Paul You got it all wrong; Imposter God with an awful lot of pasta Without any sauce Cause that's got carbs in it.. And I'm made of carbon or something But not for long— $10 an hour? So wrong Get me off this rock. It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so I'm always too me to be you— Till you need me to; Now there are two in this room, And it's blu in full bloom, I assume, Make some room for me Build a tomb for me, in your womb Don't bury me Burn me instead If I'm worthy “The earth, My creation” —she said. The end. (But it isn't, It's infinite.) Amen

DILLON HART FRANCIS is laying in a lush green meadow, centered in a field of daisies dressed in all white. Though I'm not sure we're meant to be, I'm sure that we could be; Or have been— But that's just me; My memory expands further than the eyes see; You're like me, But likely, Another lesson I need So here I am Rolling in the deep Keeping secrets, Sleeping with my grip Tightly wrapped around the key; A lock that doesn't open, Another thing I don't need; And I don't need you, But I'm thinking that I probably shouldn't think I need a drink— (Of love) Another drink— (Of blood) It's something wonderful, or was A pigeon turned to dove, And then a duck, Right before my eyes I'd be lying if I said I never cried so much Over one Lustful Stunning Something What? You woke me up for nothing I was someone in my dream, And now I'm up, And I'm no one I'm no one, huh But funny, sometimes Why me? I just keep on writing, I just keep on writing I just keep on writing I'm deprived, I'm not alive anymore— No one ever loved me before. He certainly must be dead; he thinks; his bright blue eyes glisten in the light, and as they begin to change, one single daisy stands out to him–unmoving, he stares at it, her petals rustling in the light breeze of the wind, however–they, too, begin to change. He takes a slow, deep breath in, still, however unmoving, as the daisy seemingly begins to dance and glisten; now he seem curious at best, but still unmoved. The daisy begins to flutter and twinkle, dazzling as the light seems to move around it, the meadow fading into a picturesque blur as the flower blooms, now changing color into a swirling array of flashing colors, now emitting a lulling hum– a peaceful and calming lullaby of frequencies and tones, cosmic and otherworldly and yet somehow natural and familiar Dillon becomes flush with bewilderment and awe, as the daisy continues to flash strobing patterns of lights and colors, now opening and growing as its petals stretch out, reaching into a flush and glorious cascade of pure white light–as his eyes widen, he moves slightly towards it; it opens up and swallows him whole. INT. LIVING ROOM. DAY THOMAS WESLEY PENTZ is slightly stunned, still glued to his screen; his good friend DILLON FRANCIS, an actor, has invited him over to watch his newest movie. What the fuck. The daisy returns to its natural state, and a warm wind blows through the sunlit field. FADE TO BLACK. What the fuck did I just see. I swear, you're in the weirdest movies, dude – He turns to his side to see an empty space on the course where Dillon had once been sitting. Dillon? He looks about the room confusedly, then pauses the movie, getting up from the couch and starting to the kitchen. Dillon. Your movie's weird, bro. However, the kitchen is empty. He approaches the counter, where GERALD is placed–he looks awkwardly at the pinata, staring into his eyes before turning it around. Ugh. He departs to search for Dillon in the bathroom. Dillon! Where you at, bro? I paused the movie! He checks the bathroom; also empty. YO! He turns down the hallway, hearing the sound of the shower running– Are you in the shower? No response. I'm not about to come into your shower bro; it's weird and random that you're in the shower when you invited me over to watch your movie. Still, no response. Bro! Again, silence–the shower continues running. Alright…you better not be naked. He steps into the master bedroom, the steam of the hot shower crawling out of the master bathroom and into the bedroom. Are you okay? He winces as he looks into the master bathroom, shower running at full power and the room filled with steam, to the point that even the roof is condensating; a drop of water drips from the ceiling and into his left eye– –fuck– –rubbing his eye, he observes the room to be empty–his friend is nowhere to be found; He is in the house alone. --- It's was incredible magic, even if it was my own—and I didn't exactly know that it was, or at least not surely, as my day had been anything but enjoyable, not that I was allowing myself to be convinced of such—The Secret had at best instilled the fake it till you make it technique of always being “good”, even when you were bad—and that there was no such thing as being bad, even if you were feeling it; and that if you were feeling it, you were just allowing yourself to feel it. Everything is always good all the time no matter what—bad thoughts and feelings were a result of something you were lacking—something you were doing wrong—though, really, there was no wrongdoing, as for the truly practical use of The Secret says that everything that happens is with purpose; the power the awareness of that purpose, and the consistent application of that purpose no matter what action or circumstance. --- Describe this feeling. I don't know. Does it hurt? Kind of. But— But— Did you cry? I didn't cry. Good. I wanted to. Good. There was no way I could finish The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction, or The 33 Strategies of War by Sunday; but, already knowing the 48 laws of power, I understood that even attending Dillon Francis's show would be an obvious forfeit to whatever game we were playing; it indeed was war, and as my fragile mind psychologically bent and twisted, wondering why it was I couldn't let Dillon out of my hindsight, foresight, or insight for much more than a brief moment; there was something powerful at play if not my own mind, crafting the world into a game which was fixed in my favor. However, this day was odd, with no reason or rhyme—and now I was burning with a new sense; one with which I couldn't do anything, and though far from stalemate my next series of moves would have to be played well in order to peacefully withdraw from the match. It was a different feeling entirely than with Kayla Lauren—and however fickle it may have seemed, it was still some sort of hurt— though, rather than a deep stab wound which pierced through my heart and straight into my soul, instead it was in fact a fire, which burned in my chest and, although in the place where my heart once might have been—an incinerator of panic and frenzy of chaotic, mischievous unrest had welled up inside of me. There she was— I assumed, the blockage I had sensed admirably, having prayed for peace and happiness, However—it was clear that in all the nonsense I had indeed become attached and outright infatuated with the idea of obsessively wanting Dillon Francis, which had, admítedly halted the overall creative action in anything including him in The Festival Project, and though there were still subtle hints of things maybe even going my way—I had to find something, anything that would help me cling to rational, stable thoughts. I had, after all—just wanted a [expletive]—and now with any luck or without any grief I could find one, without having the image of his face or his eyes burned into my mind. I had a healthy denial of having fallen in love with him; after Sonny, there was no love—and there certainly wasn't any falling into it, especially not with Dillon Francis. Now I had to do everything I could to at least rid myself in the very least of everything I had written of him, I was looking forward to somehow disbanding the account and all things associated with it, as I was sure any monitors, trackers, or hacks were to be through there, and—as things seemed to have gotten serious in one way or another, with the “demon” coughs still following me everywhere I went, mostly possessing the bodies of white, skinny women—I couldn't trust that whatever was being done was being done to anyone but SupaCree—as no one yet even knew my true new name, besides the social security administration, and I had long since gathered that it it was indeed my own United States government trying to kill me, or rather, have me kill myself—they had by now realized I was more of a valuable asset to keep around in some way, if not just for my intellectual rarity alone. The fact was, I wanted but not needed Dillon Francis—and as painful as it was to simply subsist in medocrity and corporate slavery, I knew myself to be powerful enough at least on my own to be constantly stalked, watched, and followed—and by Some standards or whatever other interests, I was valuable enough for consideration, but also replaceable enough to be let go. I had nothing else to live for, and so cared less either way, but having the weight of The Great Big Book Of Dillon Francis off my shoulders would at least allow whatever would take place thereafter to be duty-free. She was long and frail looking, at least by the arms and the hands, and the shot was perfect enough that I could only know one thing about her, even watching the video multiple times. I didn't know why I was there, but something was scratching and gripping at me to look, and so I did—and to my atrocious delight, there was a woman beside him—stuffing the innards of a double double with hot fries—the kind I used to like: I was at least glad it didn't show her biting Into the mess, but I had already seen Kayla Lauren do so, minus the hot fries, in her very own In-N-Out commercial; this, however wsd just a hand model—a demon dressed as a woman showing off what she could do that I couldn't—and Dillon unremarkably making a statement, as if to say without saying “things I can do with her.” The next slide, however, took and shook me, prompting me to realize I would have to change all of the names in my upcoming would-be novel, had I ever the time to finish it—of the means to put a middle or end to it, as it just seemed ever-never-ending. [EDIT] The dog in the photo nearly distracted me from essentially the most shocking thing I could have ever fathomed seeing on Instagram, and actually rocked me at the core; nearly vomiting with excitement or confusion, neither of which I could place, and setting the aforementioned fire with a gaseous fume—I played the story over in a fit of rage, and for the next few hours I would come to again question my own being and existence, unable to place my feelings but however, fully aware of them, unable to understand what they exactly were and why they were there. Now, I had probably another album underfoot, and though I was as wordless as ever, there was something to be said about the fit of fury and rage that was inescapable, the tears I had been able to hold back in the early morning hours that same day finally pouring out, as now I was certainly again in the grips of deep growing pains, none of which were wanted or needed, nor was I ready for. It was a dangerous, disastrous love—or something enough like it to be equally as painful and destructive. Everyone had a Kayla Lauren, and here I was, trapped in a body too big and too black to be cared for in the way I had only ever wanted or needed; at least by anyone I was actually drawn to, which was in itself a rarity. Hell indeed hath no fury. Auto-Magic Don't stop me now Uh I'm on auto-Matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Daddy's home Yo— I gota boner Or bone in my body to roam I'm going rio-to roam. You do not know me I am not lonely, But no beef with my rice-aroni, No cheese Oh please don't need me I was just sleeping I am the king of kings You see me, Jesus? He be calling on me We don't sleep Where are you mr mau5 They call me mr mouth They call me mr mouth I'm here to eat you O-o-o-o-out The limit is 5; Times it by 9 Now that's a new paradigm, I blend it up with lime A Diamond Now you are mine; I am your mind I am time Bruh. I like what I like I have to hype you up, You have to buy me Blimey, my— you're suicidy. Fuck. Grow up. I just opened up a notebook, Now I'm shook, Don't look And don't look me up, I'm a muffin, Crunchy, But no nuts What? Shut up. Bruh. Oh. It's you again. I think I'm in love with Being In love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Love with Love with Love with— Being with— Love Love is Love is Love is Being in Love is Love is Love is Being with Love js Love js Love is Being in Love is Love is Love js Being—- Love Is In You Oh. Diplo & SIDEPEICE on your mind Sometimes I Try a little harder Do a little more Work a little longer Thinking of you I —- One day I'll be perfect One day I'll be famous One day I'll be a shining star You'll wish upon me; But I'm far away now, I'm far away now “One day I'll be pretty”, she said ‘One day you'll be with me', she thinks One day there will be no secrets, or regrets But that's far away now, Far away now Here we go Alright, alright You all strapped in? I'll be here all night, all night One day I'll be famous, Nameless said I'm saying grace at picnic tables Lady Faith ain't reading fables I think I'm disabled, maybe Run like a horse out the stable This is unstable This is unhealthy This is unwritten; This is a fairly tale! Very well, Very well written Hot as hell isn't it? Isn't it intermission yet? I'm still on a mission; I still haven't read the texts I'm still sitting in smitten, Drifting, but I haven't driven in centuries Sifting and lifting my misery into Ascension This my invention: I need invitations for Satan's epiphany What it is? Skinny as Whitney, Stiff as a skeleton No more jello-or gelatin Animal product again— Hey this is my agent, or management; Animal planet isn't as infinite as history channel If I wear a flannel to funural Call it a habit or programming— Haven't I had it? Goddammit, my dad is just Random I miss him I can't take advantage I'm packing my bags for the promised land Plane hasn't landed yet I just made management Damaged like can in the back of a What the fuck is that thing? What? What is THAT? A semi truck. What's it for? Uh… Sometimes God asks questions I can't answer I gotta get to Alaska I think I'm crashing rapidly Yeah, I'd eat a can on spam for my dad I'm having a panic attack But I'm laughing out loud Cause the law of attraction says Disaster is A product of imagination— And mine is bigger than Disney's If you're gonna miss me, Admit it Cause I'm disappearing I mean it I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska A flatline Can't be Gotta get back on time Gotta sing like Whitney Shit you not I'm not kidding This shit has got to be Offa my rocker Or rocking chair Dad, I'm a rockstar I'll be right there A delayed reaction A trap; A plan to get me back to alaska “I'm a trash can” I'm a beautiful black man Man, This is savage, I can't handle this madness Where's my man Where's my mantras? I am a Grammy winner I am an Oscar winner I am an Emmy Winner I am a Tony winner Blow me Get below me You owe me You don't own me I'm the only one who knows me Okay I'll eat banana cream pie Just don't die on me Just don't lie Like there's no time Please believe me The only Interaction with Jesus I need Is pleading Please don't leave me hanging, dang I'm on my way Don't hate me for praying Don't hate me Hey, Don't take this the wrong way I only changed my name To get away from A murderer I'm sorry It's all my mistakes I— I'm wasting away I'm wasting away I'm wasting my days procrastinating And eating cupcakes I'm a size 4 I'm adorable, But what will I do with these legs Eggs and bacon Any day of the week And some pancakes, please Anything for my daddy Anything Underwater plays on the radio station I'm an over eater, but not lately Haven't been sleeping Haven't been playing the game that I made up I'm an alien No, I'm an Alaskan With black skin Pity the fool, But I can't pity you Maybe time for the pool But can't stop a panic attack When it's happening Dad. Wait for me. Don't leave me with mom Please Please Take it easy The universe doesn't understand Don't Or know But I hope she won't Take him away from me Before I see him again Radiation I hate this X-ray machine A display of hate I'm so mean when I'm hungry Just trying to be as lean as I can be Just want to be happy Just want to be me, and I mean it I see you see me I see you see me, too I see you in me, too I see myself in you, But I'm selfish boo, so unusual So, so cruel Eat a spoonful of Fuck you, dude Watch YouTube to get in the mood I pity the fool But don't pity you You're just shitty And I'm in your living room Wishing to just end it By admission, I didn't risk it all Just to Envy you And I don't And I can't And I won't Have it bad? I don't believe you I can't see through anything with the Steam on my lenses No steam room Stream of consciousness says Get out of bed, From midnight to noon I'm a human I'm dead in the eyes I'm dead serious One minute to write And I'm furious Curious Put me on ice; This is ludachris Losing my life to a human Some bullshit Digital love >< the veldt Discoveries to Discovery (That's Daft Punk) I'm in no hurry; Have a McFlurry If life isn't wonderful Isn't it wonderful Isn't it dumb when you wonder what month it is Isn't this physics Collision of science and violent One tiny violin, silence Displayed as the sermon is read Syrup with bread, or something Guess I'm inbred, but well-read, or something Guess we'll wear red, or something Guess I'm just dead, With no regrets Surfing the internet, or something I'm channel tres Let me express my regrets, Or regression Excersise to exsicion, Expression Express self check out I'm wrecked, Write a check out To bounce Where's Mr. Mau5 I'm still Mr. Mouth, I'm sour Didn't forget where this started but It's been 5 hours and I'm just now feeling the power I got you a flower, Now I'm the man of the hour, Turn the page I'm starting to look my age, I'm Starting to have nice legs, I'm Starting to miss the stage a bit I'm starting to see the deficit to my attention Split the Bill, and fit the picture Simply put, I miss her, I miss him I miss this I miss that— I'm miss América under this hat I'm African American, yeah I'm black— Well, half In the back of the pack With a sandwhich This is a masterpiece Or just an album Or just a - - - Or just a problem Or just another mistake I made I'm starting to look my age, I'm a raisin in the sun Having fun yet? Not without a flat stomach And a gun, To blow my head off, Cause I never got it That's raw, huh? “I'm awesome” “I'm so lost.” I'm an apostle, Paul You got it all wrong; Imposter God with an awful lot of pasta Without any sauce Cause that's got carbs in it.. And I'm made of carbon or something But not for long— $10 an hour? So wrong Get me off this rock. It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so I'm always too me to be you— Till you need me to; Now there are two in this room, And it's blu in full bloom, I assume, Make some room for me Build a tomb for me, in your womb Don't bury me Burn me instead If I'm worthy “The earth, My creation” —she said. The end. (But it isn't, It's infinite.) Amen

DILLON HART FRANCIS is laying in a lush green meadow, centered in a field of daisies dressed in all white. Though I'm not sure we're meant to be, I'm sure that we could be; Or have been— But that's just me; My memory expands further than the eyes see; You're like me, But likely, Another lesson I need So here I am Rolling in the deep Keeping secrets, Sleeping with my grip Tightly wrapped around the key; A lock that doesn't open, Another thing I don't need; And I don't need you, But I'm thinking that I probably shouldn't think I need a drink— (Of love) Another drink— (Of blood) It's something wonderful, or was A pigeon turned to dove, And then a duck, Right before my eyes I'd be lying if I said I never cried so much Over one Lustful Stunning Something What? You woke me up for nothing I was someone in my dream, And now I'm up, And I'm no one I'm no one, huh But funny, sometimes Why me? I just keep on writing, I just keep on writing I just keep on writing I'm deprived, I'm not alive anymore— No one ever loved me before. He certainly must be dead; he thinks; his bright blue eyes glisten in the light, and as they begin to change, one single daisy stands out to him–unmoving, he stares at it, her petals rustling in the light breeze of the wind, however–they, too, begin to change. He takes a slow, deep breath in, still, however unmoving, as the daisy seemingly begins to dance and glisten; now he seem curious at best, but still unmoved. The daisy begins to flutter and twinkle, dazzling as the light seems to move around it, the meadow fading into a picturesque blur as the flower blooms, now changing color into a swirling array of flashing colors, now emitting a lulling hum– a peaceful and calming lullaby of frequencies and tones, cosmic and otherworldly and yet somehow natural and familiar Dillon becomes flush with bewilderment and awe, as the daisy continues to flash strobing patterns of lights and colors, now opening and growing as its petals stretch out, reaching into a flush and glorious cascade of pure white light–as his eyes widen, he moves slightly towards it; it opens up and swallows him whole. INT. LIVING ROOM. DAY THOMAS WESLEY PENTZ is slightly stunned, still glued to his screen; his good friend DILLON FRANCIS, an actor, has invited him over to watch his newest movie. What the fuck. The daisy returns to its natural state, and a warm wind blows through the sunlit field. FADE TO BLACK. What the fuck did I just see. I swear, you're in the weirdest movies, dude – He turns to his side to see an empty space on the course where Dillon had once been sitting. Dillon? He looks about the room confusedly, then pauses the movie, getting up from the couch and starting to the kitchen. Dillon. Your movie's weird, bro. However, the kitchen is empty. He approaches the counter, where GERALD is placed–he looks awkwardly at the pinata, staring into his eyes before turning it around. Ugh. He departs to search for Dillon in the bathroom. Dillon! Where you at, bro? I paused the movie! He checks the bathroom; also empty. YO! He turns down the hallway, hearing the sound of the shower running– Are you in the shower? No response. I'm not about to come into your shower bro; it's weird and random that you're in the shower when you invited me over to watch your movie. Still, no response. Bro! Again, silence–the shower continues running. Alright…you better not be naked. He steps into the master bedroom, the steam of the hot shower crawling out of the master bathroom and into the bedroom. Are you okay? He winces as he looks into the master bathroom, shower running at full power and the room filled with steam, to the point that even the roof is condensating; a drop of water drips from the ceiling and into his left eye– –fuck– –rubbing his eye, he observes the room to be empty–his friend is nowhere to be found; He is in the house alone. --- It's was incredible magic, even if it was my own—and I didn't exactly know that it was, or at least not surely, as my day had been anything but enjoyable, not that I was allowing myself to be convinced of such—The Secret had at best instilled the fake it till you make it technique of always being “good”, even when you were bad—and that there was no such thing as being bad, even if you were feeling it; and that if you were feeling it, you were just allowing yourself to feel it. Everything is always good all the time no matter what—bad thoughts and feelings were a result of something you were lacking—something you were doing wrong—though, really, there was no wrongdoing, as for the truly practical use of The Secret says that everything that happens is with purpose; the power the awareness of that purpose, and the consistent application of that purpose no matter what action or circumstance. --- Describe this feeling. I don't know. Does it hurt? Kind of. But— But— Did you cry? I didn't cry. Good. I wanted to. Good. There was no way I could finish The 48 Laws of Power and The Art of Seduction, or The 33 Strategies of War by Sunday; but, already knowing the 48 laws of power, I understood that even attending Dillon Francis's show would be an obvious forfeit to whatever game we were playing; it indeed was war, and as my fragile mind psychologically bent and twisted, wondering why it was I couldn't let Dillon out of my hindsight, foresight, or insight for much more than a brief moment; there was something powerful at play if not my own mind, crafting the world into a game which was fixed in my favor. However, this day was odd, with no reason or rhyme—and now I was burning with a new sense; one with which I couldn't do anything, and though far from stalemate my next series of moves would have to be played well in order to peacefully withdraw from the match. It was a different feeling entirely than with Kayla Lauren—and however fickle it may have seemed, it was still some sort of hurt— though, rather than a deep stab wound which pierced through my heart and straight into my soul, instead it was in fact a fire, which burned in my chest and, although in the place where my heart once might have been—an incinerator of panic and frenzy of chaotic, mischievous unrest had welled up inside of me. There she was— I assumed, the blockage I had sensed admirably, having prayed for peace and happiness, However—it was clear that in all the nonsense I had indeed become attached and outright infatuated with the idea of obsessively wanting Dillon Francis, which had, admítedly halted the overall creative action in anything including him in The Festival Project, and though there were still subtle hints of things maybe even going my way—I had to find something, anything that would help me cling to rational, stable thoughts. I had, after all—just wanted a [expletive]—and now with any luck or without any grief I could find one, without having the image of his face or his eyes burned into my mind. I had a healthy denial of having fallen in love with him; after Sonny, there was no love—and there certainly wasn't any falling into it, especially not with Dillon Francis. Now I had to do everything I could to at least rid myself in the very least of everything I had written of him, I was looking forward to somehow disbanding the account and all things associated with it, as I was sure any monitors, trackers, or hacks were to be through there, and—as things seemed to have gotten serious in one way or another, with the “demon” coughs still following me everywhere I went, mostly possessing the bodies of white, skinny women—I couldn't trust that whatever was being done was being done to anyone but SupaCree—as no one yet even knew my true new name, besides the social security administration, and I had long since gathered that it it was indeed my own United States government trying to kill me, or rather, have me kill myself—they had by now realized I was more of a valuable asset to keep around in some way, if not just for my intellectual rarity alone. The fact was, I wanted but not needed Dillon Francis—and as painful as it was to simply subsist in medocrity and corporate slavery, I knew myself to be powerful enough at least on my own to be constantly stalked, watched, and followed—and by Some standards or whatever other interests, I was valuable enough for consideration, but also replaceable enough to be let go. I had nothing else to live for, and so cared less either way, but having the weight of The Great Big Book Of Dillon Francis off my shoulders would at least allow whatever would take place thereafter to be duty-free. She was long and frail looking, at least by the arms and the hands, and the shot was perfect enough that I could only know one thing about her, even watching the video multiple times. I didn't know why I was there, but something was scratching and gripping at me to look, and so I did—and to my atrocious delight, there was a woman beside him—stuffing the innards of a double double with hot fries—the kind I used to like: I was at least glad it didn't show her biting Into the mess, but I had already seen Kayla Lauren do so, minus the hot fries, in her very own In-N-Out commercial; this, however wsd just a hand model—a demon dressed as a woman showing off what she could do that I couldn't—and Dillon unremarkably making a statement, as if to say without saying “things I can do with her.” The next slide, however, took and shook me, prompting me to realize I would have to change all of the names in my upcoming would-be novel, had I ever the time to finish it—of the means to put a middle or end to it, as it just seemed ever-never-ending. [EDIT] The dog in the photo nearly distracted me from essentially the most shocking thing I could have ever fathomed seeing on Instagram, and actually rocked me at the core; nearly vomiting with excitement or confusion, neither of which I could place, and setting the aforementioned fire with a gaseous fume—I played the story over in a fit of rage, and for the next few hours I would come to again question my own being and existence, unable to place my feelings but however, fully aware of them, unable to understand what they exactly were and why they were there. Now, I had probably another album underfoot, and though I was as wordless as ever, there was something to be said about the fit of fury and rage that was inescapable, the tears I had been able to hold back in the early morning hours that same day finally pouring out, as now I was certainly again in the grips of deep growing pains, none of which were wanted or needed, nor was I ready for. It was a dangerous, disastrous love—or something enough like it to be equally as painful and destructive. Everyone had a Kayla Lauren, and here I was, trapped in a body too big and too black to be cared for in the way I had only ever wanted or needed; at least by anyone I was actually drawn to, which was in itself a rarity. Hell indeed hath no fury. Auto-Magic Don't stop me now Uh I'm on auto-Matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Auto-matic Daddy's home Yo— I gota boner Or bone in my body to roam I'm going rio-to roam. You do not know me I am not lonely, But no beef with my rice-aroni, No cheese Oh please don't need me I was just sleeping I am the king of kings You see me, Jesus? He be calling on me We don't sleep Where are you mr mau5 They call me mr mouth They call me mr mouth I'm here to eat you O-o-o-o-out The limit is 5; Times it by 9 Now that's a new paradigm, I blend it up with lime A Diamond Now you are mine; I am your mind I am time Bruh. I like what I like I have to hype you up, You have to buy me Blimey, my— you're suicidy. Fuck. Grow up. I just opened up a notebook, Now I'm shook, Don't look And don't look me up, I'm a muffin, Crunchy, But no nuts What? Shut up. Bruh. Oh. It's you again. I think I'm in love with Being In love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Being in love with Being in love I think I'm in love with Love with Love with Love with— Being with— Love Love is Love is Love is Being in Love is Love is Love is Being with Love js Love js Love is Being in Love is Love is Love js Being—- Love Is In You Oh. Diplo & SIDEPEICE on your mind Sometimes I Try a little harder Do a little more Work a little longer Thinking of you I —- One day I'll be perfect One day I'll be famous One day I'll be a shining star You'll wish upon me; But I'm far away now, I'm far away now “One day I'll be pretty”, she said ‘One day you'll be with me', she thinks One day there will be no secrets, or regrets But that's far away now, Far away now Here we go Alright, alright You all strapped in? I'll be here all night, all night One day I'll be famous, Nameless said I'm saying grace at picnic tables Lady Faith ain't reading fables I think I'm disabled, maybe Run like a horse out the stable This is unstable This is unhealthy This is unwritten; This is a fairly tale! Very well, Very well written Hot as hell isn't it? Isn't it intermission yet? I'm still on a mission; I still haven't read the texts I'm still sitting in smitten, Drifting, but I haven't driven in centuries Sifting and lifting my misery into Ascension This my invention: I need invitations for Satan's epiphany What it is? Skinny as Whitney, Stiff as a skeleton No more jello-or gelatin Animal product again— Hey this is my agent, or management; Animal planet isn't as infinite as history channel If I wear a flannel to funural Call it a habit or programming— Haven't I had it? Goddammit, my dad is just Random I miss him I can't take advantage I'm packing my bags for the promised land Plane hasn't landed yet I just made management Damaged like can in the back of a What the fuck is that thing? What? What is THAT? A semi truck. What's it for? Uh… Sometimes God asks questions I can't answer I gotta get to Alaska I think I'm crashing rapidly Yeah, I'd eat a can on spam for my dad I'm having a panic attack But I'm laughing out loud Cause the law of attraction says Disaster is A product of imagination— And mine is bigger than Disney's If you're gonna miss me, Admit it Cause I'm disappearing I mean it I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska I gotta get to Alaska A flatline Can't be Gotta get back on time Gotta sing like Whitney Shit you not I'm not kidding This shit has got to be Offa my rocker Or rocking chair Dad, I'm a rockstar I'll be right there A delayed reaction A trap; A plan to get me back to alaska “I'm a trash can” I'm a beautiful black man Man, This is savage, I can't handle this madness Where's my man Where's my mantras? I am a Grammy winner I am an Oscar winner I am an Emmy Winner I am a Tony winner Blow me Get below me You owe me You don't own me I'm the only one who knows me Okay I'll eat banana cream pie Just don't die on me Just don't lie Like there's no time Please believe me The only Interaction with Jesus I need Is pleading Please don't leave me hanging, dang I'm on my way Don't hate me for praying Don't hate me Hey, Don't take this the wrong way I only changed my name To get away from A murderer I'm sorry It's all my mistakes I— I'm wasting away I'm wasting away I'm wasting my days procrastinating And eating cupcakes I'm a size 4 I'm adorable, But what will I do with these legs Eggs and bacon Any day of the week And some pancakes, please Anything for my daddy Anything Underwater plays on the radio station I'm an over eater, but not lately Haven't been sleeping Haven't been playing the game that I made up I'm an alien No, I'm an Alaskan With black skin Pity the fool, But I can't pity you Maybe time for the pool But can't stop a panic attack When it's happening Dad. Wait for me. Don't leave me with mom Please Please Take it easy The universe doesn't understand Don't Or know But I hope she won't Take him away from me Before I see him again Radiation I hate this X-ray machine A display of hate I'm so mean when I'm hungry Just trying to be as lean as I can be Just want to be happy Just want to be me, and I mean it I see you see me I see you see me, too I see you in me, too I see myself in you, But I'm selfish boo, so unusual So, so cruel Eat a spoonful of Fuck you, dude Watch YouTube to get in the mood I pity the fool But don't pity you You're just shitty And I'm in your living room Wishing to just end it By admission, I didn't risk it all Just to Envy you And I don't And I can't And I won't Have it bad? I don't believe you I can't see through anything with the Steam on my lenses No steam room Stream of consciousness says Get out of bed, From midnight to noon I'm a human I'm dead in the eyes I'm dead serious One minute to write And I'm furious Curious Put me on ice; This is ludachris Losing my life to a human Some bullshit Digital love >< the veldt Discoveries to Discovery (That's Daft Punk) I'm in no hurry; Have a McFlurry If life isn't wonderful Isn't it wonderful Isn't it dumb when you wonder what month it is Isn't this physics Collision of science and violent One tiny violin, silence Displayed as the sermon is read Syrup with bread, or something Guess I'm inbred, but well-read, or something Guess we'll wear red, or something Guess I'm just dead, With no regrets Surfing the internet, or something I'm channel tres Let me express my regrets, Or regression Excersise to exsicion, Expression Express self check out I'm wrecked, Write a check out To bounce Where's Mr. Mau5 I'm still Mr. Mouth, I'm sour Didn't forget where this started but It's been 5 hours and I'm just now feeling the power I got you a flower, Now I'm the man of the hour, Turn the page I'm starting to look my age, I'm Starting to have nice legs, I'm Starting to miss the stage a bit I'm starting to see the deficit to my attention Split the Bill, and fit the picture Simply put, I miss her, I miss him I miss this I miss that— I'm miss América under this hat I'm African American, yeah I'm black— Well, half In the back of the pack With a sandwhich This is a masterpiece Or just an album Or just a - - - Or just a problem Or just another mistake I made I'm starting to look my age, I'm a raisin in the sun Having fun yet? Not without a flat stomach And a gun, To blow my head off, Cause I never got it That's raw, huh? “I'm awesome” “I'm so lost.” I'm an apostle, Paul You got it all wrong; Imposter God with an awful lot of pasta Without any sauce Cause that's got carbs in it.. And I'm made of carbon or something But not for long— $10 an hour? So wrong Get me off this rock. It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true It's always too good to be true— If you think so I'm always too me to be you— Till you need me to; Now there are two in this room, And it's blu in full bloom, I assume, Make some room for me Build a tomb for me, in your womb Don't bury me Burn me instead If I'm worthy “The earth, My creation” —she said. The end. (But it isn't, It's infinite.) Amen

Allen: All right, passive traders, we have a treat in store for you today. Many of you know about the option continuum, which is basically, you know, our levels of breakdown of where you are as an options trader, you start with level one, you don't know anything. And then you get to level 10, maybe if you want to, which is option professional. And basically a professional means that you are so good at trading options, that you are now trading and managing other people's money and you're getting paid for it. Many of you have reached out to us in the past and said, Hey, I want more information on that. And we haven't really put it out there because I am not doing it myself. Right now, as a professional, I don't I'm not measuring anybody else's money. And so, you know, I'm not the best person to talk to about that. But we keep getting people and be like, hey, you know, I want to learn, I want to learn. So one of our members, Paul Ashcraft, has volunteered to join us today. And I want to thank you, Paul, for coming and helping out. A few a couple of months ago, I think in one of our groups, I think it was a passive group, where I had put in there like, Hey, I'm thinking about starting a hedge fund. So I'm thinking about going professional, right? And he reached out and said, hey, you know, I'm already doing it if you want to, if you want to talk and I can answer your question. So we had an amazing conversation, I learned a lot. And I was like, You know what, this would be really helpful for everybody else. So I asked Paul, hey, could you do it again? And we can record it this time? It was like, Yeah, sure, no foul. And so he's here, Paul, thank you. Thank you for being on thank you for taking the time to do this. Paul: Thank you very much. Pleasure. Allen: And you're Paul is a member of our of a lot of our programs. So passive trading formula, the blank check, and now the credit spread mastery as well. So you know, it's good to see that, hey, if you're a money manager, then you're continuously getting learning and learning new things to help out your students, or your clients, I guess. So. Well, tell me, why did you get into management? What was it that drawed you through that? Paul: Well, I sort of got tricked into it. I had a, I'm a CPA by trade, and I had a client who was becoming an NFL player agent. And he trusted me and wanted me to help him manage his people's NFL players money. So I started the licensing process at that time. And so that sort of tricked me into it. So that sort of fell apart. And then he wasn't getting more leads for what he was doing. So I basically continued since then, so Allen: Okay, so were you already trading on your own? Or before that? Or did you learn as you want to? Paul: Yeah, I've been trading, you know, for quite a while. Off and on. So yeah, I've had some experience of trading. Allen: Okay. So you are comfortable, you could do it? Paul: I knew I needed to learn, I do need to learn some more. But yeah, I feel like I could I knew enough about the world to do that. Allen: Okay. And so you are known as what is a RIA, a registered independent advisor? Paul: Right. That's correct. Allen: So that's one of the ways of managing money. What exactly is an RIA? Paul: It's basically a firm that is licensed by the FINRA basically, and you are licensed to where you can manage other people's money. Allen: And all RIAs, are fiduciaries, right? Paul: That's correct. Yeah.  Allen: Right. Because a lot of people don't know the difference between a fiduciary and a non fiduciary. And so a fiduciary, if you don't know you are legally bound to do what's in the best interest of the client. A lot of these other companies that people think about when they're talking about money management, or Wealth Advisors, retirement advisors, all these words that they use, they have no license, or maybe they do have a license, but they're not a fiduciary. So they're not required to do what's best for the client. And so they can sell you a product that they get the highest commission on, even if it's not really a good thing, a good fit for you. So that's why..  Paul: Yeah one of the ways I deal with that fiduciary criteria is basically whatever I do for other people, I do for myself. Allen: Okay. Okay, interesting. So, what does it take to open an RIA? Paul: Well, if you want to legal structure and need, like, I have an LLC got a creative for that. And I have had to pass a serious 65 test, which you'd like an SEC test, and get to come up some kind of agreement you have with your clients that's approved by FINRA to sign them on as clients. Those are the basics you have to do. Allen: Okay, and like how long did it take you to go through all that? Remember? Paul: I'm gonna say, basically of six to nine months. Allen: Okay, and how long have you been? How long have you been an RIA? Paul: Since 2014, so roughly eight years. Allen: Awesome. Yep. Cool. And for those of you, you know, I'm going to repeat it later on, but Paul's business website is Businessadvisors.Pro. So if you ever or if you need a good adviser, you know, please reach out to Paul. And I'll repeat at the end, and we'll put it in the show notes. I just wanted to get that out there. Paul: And that's mainly my CPA website, just so you know. Allen: Very cool. BusinessAdvisors.Pro, there you go.  Paul: And then sort has been done about creating my Wealth Advisors website, because you're so under scrutiny when you were you advertise things, so I just sort of steered away from that a little bit. Allen: Interesting. Okay. So I guess there's certain things you can say and certain things you cannot say. Paul: Basically, anything you put out there to the public, you have to like, monitor it for five years, and they can question you about it anytime. So I just figured one way to get around that is just not to do it. Allen: Okay. So then that leads me to my next question, like, how do you find clients if you're not advertising? Paul: Well, you know, I have CPA clients, probably like half the clients, I have my Wealth Advisors from CPA side. Other thing is like, from friends, and referrals from other people who use me. Allen: Okay. So it takes time to build all that up?  Paul: Yes, yes. And I'm currently working on more. More advertising. Allen: Okay. All right. So the advertising is possible. It's not it's not like it's restricted. But you have to be careful of what you do and how you do it. Paul: Yes, yes, yeah. Allen: Now, what are your clients looking for? Because, you know, if somebody comes to you and says, Hey, you know, I'm looking to make more money, obviously, but they have so many, so many choices. They can do it themselves, it could go to like, like Fidelity and have them do it. They could go to they're really rich, they can have their own private like, you know, Bank of America, has their own private wealth, people. So when they come to you, what do they tell you? Like? What are they looking for in terms of an advisor? Paul: Well, I mean, I had someone recently come to me, and, you know, we're signing them up, or things that I'd say we, if we look, if we're here a year later, what do you want to what your criteria are saying, I did a good job. And he wanted a 10% return, which has been difficult in this market. But that's, that's one thing. Another thing? I you know, most advisors out there, these basically are, they're buying hold people, I mean, and they bid six things in a bucket, and don't look at it too often. So I, I basically say that I'm actively working in their account, and I'm not sure I'm going to just put it there and not be looking at it. Allen: So obviously, you probably tell them about your options experience and the different types of strategies you use. Paul: Yeah, a lot of times just the casual person warnings on the manager money that, that if I tried to tell them all that it would go way over their head. Because, you know, it took me like two years talking about options to actually start doing it myself, you know, so I'm trying to be a little bit of conscientious about what they can and cannot handle information wise. I'll be glad to talk about it, they want to, but I'm not gonna write too much about it. Allen: And I bet that would that would set you apart, right? You know, it's like, hey, you know, we can do plain vanilla stuff. Or we can do if you're a little bit more aggressive than we can do this, and this and this. And then if it goes over there, that's fine. But as long as they're like, whoa, this guy knows. Paul: Yeah, definitely. That's certainly part because like, my CPA, well, I deal with investment advisors. And like, no one, no one that I know of is actually managing costs. I mean, like, you know, every week or things like that, Allen: yeah, yeah, they just don't I mean, part of it is they have, depending on where they are some of these guys that I know, they have broker dealers, and the broker basically tells them what they can do and what they can't do. And trading is like, No, you're not doing it. They just they can't, they're not allowed. And so, you know, we get we get clients that are financial advisors, they come in, they're like, oh, yeah, I'm a financial advisor, like, oh, they shouldn't, you know, all this stuff. And they're like, oh, I don't do any of this for my son. I don't know, they don't even teach us this stuff. In financial advisors. Cool. So it's like, once I call again, I'm like, Oh, my God. Paul: Yeah, most of them are just like, call themselves people. And it is this, they don't necessarily know that much about investing. It's more about they have relationships with people, and they train their people to be accustomed to five to 7% returns. So so don't want you to do that as that's, you know, not a hallmark. Allen: Yeah, yeah. Like, you know, when I go to if I go to a dinner party, or whatever, and, you know, always comes up. So what do you do? It's like, well, I teach people how to do this. And the first they're like, really, is that, you know, what do you what do you mean? And then we tell them a little bit about it, and they go, Yeah, you know, we try to aim, you know, for 5% a month, and they're like, what a month. Really? Oh, wow, I gotta learn about that. And then, you know, you explain a little bit and then they're, like, bored and then they go talk to somebody else. Because, you know, it's cool. They want, they want it. They just want to do the work. So that's cool. Now as an advisor, how do you How do you charge? Like, what do you charge? How do you do it? Paul: So I have what's called a serious 65 license. So I'm able to charge a percentage of what assets are under management. Okay, so the basic generic, charged with as generally 1% of assets under management. Okay, that if I'm doing more as a some different strategies, things like that, I'm probably going to up the field more because it's, it is active trading. Allen: It takes more time. Yeah, yeah. Because I remember way back when I had a guy at America ice, and he was my advisor. And yeah, he would charge a minimum of 1% on assets every year. Every time you put money, you gave him money, they would take 5% off the top. And then every every mutual fund and every index fund or whatever that they put you in. And most of them were, you know, Ameriprise products. Each of those things would have a separate fee every year. So I mean, I got dealing left and right. I didn't know what I was doing. At the time, I was thinking I am going to you know, I'm smart. I got an advisor. But yeah, he was the one getting rich. And so.. Paul: They made that money, whether they go down or go up it. Allen: Yeah, I mean, they take the money right up front, 5% off the top. As soon as you make a deposit, it's like, man, you haven't done anything. Even if I turn around and ask for the money back, I just love fibers. Do you have like a lot of Is There a lot of overhead for being a advisor? You need a large staff? Paul: Right now, it's just me. And so I'm already have all my setup for my CPA business. So there's not really that much more to do.  Allen: And you can run it from the same location. Yes, yes. Okay. So then who does the like the backend stuff, you know, statements, and compliance audits, all that stuff. Paul: So we use Interactive Brokers as the broker dealer. So they basically, so all my clients have their own account set up with them, and it sort of goes underneath my master account. So so they take care about the then get a statement from there anytime they want to find out what their balances. And if they need to take up money, they can contact them and get the money taken out. So they saw him. So we're doing a lot of the back office stuff. Allen: Awesome. So you really don't have to do anything. And they they opened the account themselves, the client opens the account themselves, they deposit the money themselves, they can take it out whenever they want, they can go and log in, see all the trades, see whatever is there. So you really don't have a lot of customer service issues. And so you don't have to send send out statements, because Interactive Brokers will do that. Right. Paul: And one of my strategies is if someone is, I call it high maintenance, then I probably can't handle that, you know, they probably need to find someone else because, you know, I got enough things to do is it is. Allen: Awesome, cool. And then. So you don't handle any of the money either. Because they just go straight to interactive. So you're like a hands off, okay, I'll do the trades, but I'm not touching your money. So you don't have to worry about me taking your money and running away and flying to Bermuda or something.  Paul: Yeah, just like the Bernie Madoff deal where he was. He they call it having custody of the funds, and he had custody. And so they, they talked about that when you're going through your testing and things like that, about having custody and not having custody and things like that. So yeah, it's a big red flag. Allen: Yeah. Because I mean, like, I've been looking into starting my own hedge fund, you know, using the the passive trading strategies and such. And I looked at RIA first and then I looked at, you know, hedge fund as another way, and I think from what I've been able to find so far is that if you start a hedge fund, and you don't charge any management fees, you don't need the license, you can set it up in a way where you know, you get you only take a percentage of the profit. So if there's a gain, you can get a percent, but you don't get that yearly management fee. If you want the yearly management fee, then you do have to separate a separate Ria, to do the management of the fund. Okay, I didn't know that. Yeah, so I thought that was pretty cool. So we've been looking at that as well, different things. So now, what percentage of your management is active? versus, you know, index funds, mutual funds, etc? Paul: I'd say about half. Allen: Okay, and all of the clients are okay with that, or do you do client by client? Paul: I pretty much put everybody under the same model. Yeah. So Allen: And so with interactive, how does that work, you have to go into each account to put a trade on or you just put one trade on and it just trickles.. Paul: There's a master account and I can set up different  classification. So I could I could buy 1000 shares of IBM and have it spread it putting all the accounts did that.  So they have to watch out for is some of the accounts can trade certain things, some can't, like RIAs cannot do you know, futures and naked options and things like that as far as, at least on the credit side. Allen: Okay. All right. So can does that get confusing? If you want if you want like, Okay, I want like a say IBM, I want my IBM stock to be 5% of all of my everybody's portfolio. Paul: Yeah, that would be a different the different equation. So basically, like I did a trade today where I figured, you know, want to take a $10,000 risk. So divided by what that option was going for. And I bought that many contracts to take on that kind of risk. So not necessarily rebalancing everyone is usually trade by trade. So putting on a certain set of circumstances, set a step stop loss and things like that. Allen: Okay, cool. So you can do it as easy or as simple as you want. Or you can make it as complicated as you want. Yeah, up to you. Yeah. Nice. So what types of what types of trades do you do? Paul: Well, some of what you teach. So I do some swing trading. And of course, you know, credit spreads and things like that. And some, you know, some some of the dividend paying stocks and covered calls and things like that. Allen: And do you do any any oil futures options? Paul: Well, I'm not. I'm just at the point to get licensed for that. Allen: It's a separate license? Paul: That's as a separate license. Yes. So you have to you have to get licensed through the, Chicago Board of Trade, the NFA and National Futures Association. Allen: Okay. Okay. And then will you be able to do it the same as everything else through Interactive Brokers? Paul: Yes, I think so. Sometimes you don't know to actually do it. So I think it's pretty similar. Allen: Sweet. Okay. Now, as a as an RIA, do you also advise your clients on other alternative investments, you know, real estate, crypto anything else? Or is it just stocks, bonds, options? Paul: I'm always getting to ask questions, you know, because I'm in, you know, really, I'm gonna CPA world or the IRA world, I'm getting asked questions. So I will advise on that if I think I have a good opinion. You know, I'm not roll up on that rolled up on crypto Allen: Right, right. Are you still bound by the same fiduciary type rules on that or?  Paul: You could come under some scrutiny. You know, you'd like an offsetting handed comment, and then someone does something crazy. And so you got to be a little careful. Allen: Yeah. All right. And okay, so him now with the interactive account, or the broker dealer, is the software any different? Like, versus if you open a regular account by yourself? Is there anything you have to learn a new platform? Or is it basically the same thing?  Paul: It's pretty much the same platform, you just have to understand how to do the trading, like I was telling you about, like, allocating between all the accounts, but the platform itself is basically the same. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Allen: What do you see as the future of money management, because like, you know, they got these robo advisors now, and they got like Robin Hood, trying to get everybody to trade on their own. And so what do you see down the pike? You know, do you see like, your clients are like, yeah, rather just have you do it? Or are robots or whatever? Paul: Yeah, I can see, you know, some of the robot picking up. But on average, most people out there don't know, hardly anything about the investing world. My average client, so I think it's going to be still a good field you know, way up currently doing it. Allen: Okay, and who is like your average client? Paul: They're probably like 50 years old, that did 60. And probably, you know, got assets anywhere from, you know, 50 to 50,000 to over a million dollars, you know? Allen: And do you have any limits on who can invest with you? And how much? Paul: No, I mean, like, I'm not, I'm just gonna take on any account right now. It would need to be over a certain dollar amount for me to I just always have to keep that in mind about, you know, do I want to take on a five or $10,000 account? Because it's gonna be extra work. Taking that versus the capital issue at-- You don't have to be you don't have to comply with the day trading rules. You know, because because if you if you accidentally in and out three, three trades in a week, then your account gets shut down. You know, so you have to deal with that. So yeah, so I'm trying to gradually move up from like a minimum of 25,000 to 50,000, 200,000. Allen: Okay. And then you also have a certain criteria like a certain person that you want right? Certain somebody they can handle the options and that Intertek can handle that because I mean, it does swing a little bit. So if they have a 5,000 to $10,000 account, they freak out if they lose $1,000, obviously, that's not the right person for you anyway. Paul: Right. But on that same note, I had a client the other day that, you know, they have, you know, an excess a half million dollars with me. And they want to know how they could put in more money since this market was down so they could capture, capture that now mark? I love that kind of client. expecting them to call you and tell you, why is my account down? Actually, that question is dead. They're saying, How can we put more money in?  Allen: Yeah, that's a smart, that's a Smart Client. So that's, that's got to be your email, you know, going out, like, Hey, he's trying to give me more now. double down on your investments. Okay. Now, How has being a money manager improved your own trading? Or hasn't? Paul: Well, I mean, it's made me to seek out new avenues of investing. You know, because I'm looking out for my clients. By the same token, when I do that, I find things that I can use to, you know, like, I don't know, if I would have found the old future options without that, you know, seeking out new new investment strategies, you know, so I could do a better job for my clients. Allen: Okay. Now, we've had a lot of volatility lately. And you've, you've alluded to it already. When stocks down about 20% or so right now, how do you deal with the investor concerns or expectations? Paul: I'm continually learning that. The more, the more proactive you can be with that, I find that it's better. Like, if you have a bad day or a bad trade that, you know, that affects it so much, and then maybe call and talk to them about it versus waiting for them to call you later, and they get their quarterly statements. And they call you know? Allen: Right. So do you find that a large portion of your job is just talking to people and just calming them down? Or explaining certain things to them? Or educating them? Paul: In the beginning? Yes. If someone's with you for a while, and they haven't gotten, understood your ways, and why you do what you do. And it would be generally in the first year of a client relationship, you indeed do that more, but there is sort of they get to know you, you you get to know them and sort of like a training curve there. Allen: And now, most of your clients, are they either they know you or they were referred to you. Right. So there's always there's already that trust built in from the beginning. Most of them yes, yeah. So if you, you know, advertising, somebody comes in cold, they're like, oh, yeah, I like what you're doing here. You know, here's $100,000, there's gonna be a lot more back. Paul: Yeah. Allen: Okay. So how are you handling? How are you handling the volatility? Like when somebody calls up and says, Oh, my count is down. How do you? What do you do there? Paul: Well, number one, what I did when I saw when I saw the market starting to tank, I basically, was going more into cash. So like, I the client won't know why we aren't investing. I said, Well, I'm waiting for the market to give me indication has, it's found the bottom or, you know, it is headed back up. So I don't want to, I'm not a bottom picker. But I don't want to like, write it further down. You know. So that's one way of dealing with it. And they seem to appreciate that quite a bit and understand that. So I don't think that's something you get out of a typical advisor. Allen: So yeah, but what if somebody calls you and says, Oh, my God, you know, I'm down 10%? What am I going to do? I can't handle this. How do you handle that? Have you ever had that happen? Paul: Yeah. I tried to change up their strategies a little bit to get them a little more solid, or maybe not trade as much in their account. Just being a little more cautious. Allen: Okay, so Okay, so you can actually choose, like, let's say, we talked about that IBM thing. So if you're like, Hey, I'm buying IBM, you could choose and say, okay, don't put it in this account in this account, just because in all these other ones,. Yeah. All right. So you can actually tailor it because like, if somebody goes, Yeah, I just want to be long stocks, or I just want tech stocks. And I just want you know, credit spreads. So they you can, you can do that. Yeah, okay. Yep. So, do you have any shortcuts that you can share? You know, for somebody that's thinking, hey, you know, this sounds like cool, I'm gonna I'm gonna get into this. RIA business, anything that you probably didn't know, ahead of time that you would have liked to have known? Paul: This is sort of like a unknown territory. Because, I mean, when I was doing it, I couldn't get anybody to actually figure it out what like a serious 65 license would do. And I was sort of going into blindly a little bit. So I mean, I think the number one thing is maybe you know, then contact me. Shortcuts is, you know, I don't know like I had to find a place to take the take the course for that. And then I hired a guy to tutor me some. And, you know, there's, there's these firms out there wanting you to sign up with them for them to do oh, you know, like your paperwork and so forth. And I just sort of like fumbled my way through it and plagiarized another agreement online affected us. And so another thing is to know if you're in this world, you will get audited. Personally. Well, the your investment firm, right, yeah. Yeah. Like I'm in the CPA world, and I probably will never get out a different CPA world. But the investment side, I will get audited probably time and time again. So far, it's only been once one step Florida, but yeah, Allen: okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a good thing. I guess, you know, that, that the advisors and like you said, you know, the Bernie Madoff, he keeps him at bay as much as he can a little bit. So some of that, I guess, from a consumer standpoint, and that's a good thing to hear. Paul: Yeah, but a lot of a lot of us, they don't necessarily understand the world as much as you do. And it's more like them checking a box somewhere in a city. They ask this question, or I did that, but they don't really find that don't really necessarily know exactly what they're doing, you know, Allen: Yeah. So but do you mean tax audited or audited by like the audit by Paul: the state by the financial regulatory people for the state you're in Allen: The state regulatory? Okay, so every state has their own regulatory stuff that you have so far. Paul: Yeah. So just just sort of background here. Usually, as you're managing under $100 million, you're managed by the state. But then once you hit $100 million in the SEC is basically is going to your watchdog, it's gonna look over your shoulder. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And you're in Florida, right? Correct. But you can take clients from anywhere? Paul: I can. But different states have different rules, most of them allow you to take five to 15 clients, and not really be registered with them. But then once you hit over that threshold, they want you to fully registered with them. But there are a few states that require you if you get one client, they want you to be registered. And Louisiana was one of those states. Allen: So I guess, depending on how much capital the guy is gonna give you whether it's worth it to register there.. Paul: Exactly, exactly, yeah. Okay. All right. Allen: So would you knowing what you know, now, are you happy that you went this route? Paul: Ask me again, in a few years. Allen: Well, you've been doing already for like, eight years. So kind of got some kind of track record here. Paul: Yeah, it's been, you know, it's been definitely a learning curve, you know, from the regulatory side. And then from the investment side, too, so? Yes, I'm glad I did it. But it' had its rough moments. Allen: Well, give me an example. Paul: Well if you if you lose on a trade, you know, it can affect your account and other people's account. So that's probably the biggest things that has happened to me, you know? And then you got to figure out how am I gonna tell this person this?  Allen: Yeah. So how did you how did you deal with that? Paul: I prayed a lot. Basically, if I knew the fact that someone so much, I would, I call them and talk to him about it. But in a certain situation, like, because it was spread over so many accounts, it didn't really affect anyone that much. It wasn't that big of a deal. Like, you know, if I'm managing $5 million of money, and I lose 20,000, you know, the most Someone's probably gonna lose is maybe 2 or 3000. So the overall number is a big number. But you know, we spread between all the counts, it's not that big of a number. Allen: Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I mean, that's that thing, right? There is like, the biggest thing that's kept me out of it for all these years, you know, people have been asking me from the beginning, okay, can you take my money? I'm like, nope, nope, because I don't know how I'm gonna handle the stress. I don't know if, um, we will sleep, I can lose my own money, you know, market down 20% Okay, whatever, it'll go back up, I got time, you know, but somebody else if I lose your money, and I don't know, I don't know how I'm gonna handle it. And so that's the one thing that that's really caused me to be hesitant up till now. And I agree what you said about not having that much information out there. You know, I mean, there are companies out there that will like if you want to be in RIA you type in how to be an RIA and there's a company that hey, you if you give us like 30 grand, you know, we'll do all the paperwork and we'll file everything for you. So you Okay, but what do I actually get? You know, they're like well you do the paperwork. Well what about after that? How do I get clients how do I do this how to do that they will help you at all and these two guys they had approached, they had talked that a because I'm you know Option Genius is in what's called the financial publishing space that world, so we have our own little conventions and all the Guru's come and hang out and talk marketing and stuff. And so there was there was these two guys who were speakers, and they were telling all of the financial publishers that hey, you guys need to get into the into the management business, because you guys already have all these clients? They already trust you? You know, and they probably have a lot of money because people coming to me, you know, they say, Hey, I want to learn how to trade options. Okay, cool, you know, and how large is your account? They're like, Oh, 50,000. Okay, cool. And they trading options with 50,000. But they also have like, maybe a million dollar IRA, that they're not touching, or their wife has $500,000 that is with some other financial advisor that she doesn't want her husband to touch with options. So it's like, yeah, everybody that comes in has a lot more money. So if you started an IRA or an advisor, then you know, they'll give you that money as well. And you can make all this money. And I was like, Okay, that's interesting. But, you know, what are the legalities and all that and they wanted, I don't know, obtain $1,000 plus a percentage of the company to actually teach me all this stuff. And I'm finding a there's a lot of secrecy, as you can say, you know, and Wall Street, I think puts it like that on purpose. Because they don't want everybody to know what they're doing and what they that they don't know what they're doing. Pretty much. So cool. Paul: I don't know, that's intentional, but it just got I think there's so few people who are looking to do it. And like, it's not a widespread throughout the population thing. So you don't find as much about it, you know. Allen: Maybe okay, yeah, I'll take that. Yeah. Because like, you know, even like, what is the difference between an RIA and a hedge fund? You know, I've been beating my head, like, which one? Which way? Do we go? Which way? Do we go? If we go this way? Or this? Or what are the pros? What are the cons, and there's like, no one person that can that can tell me, if you want to go to a hedge fund, they got a little hedge fund world, and, you know, you got to you got to pay the dues to get in. If you want the RA world, then it's more common, but it's, it's for the guys, you know, for people who are like, Yeah, you know, I just want to put everybody's money in an index fund, you know, so it's like, what you're doing is totally different, like, I have not met any advisors that are actually, you know, trading that actively for people. So I mean, compared to the other guy, Joe Schmo that charges 1% a year, or 2% a year, just to put their money in an index fund compared to what you're doing, you know, your value is just so much more. But it does seem like it's very similar to a hedge fund where, you know, a hedge fund is a little bit different, where all the money is pooled into one spot. And then, you know, the, the trader controls it, you're doing kind of similar, where you can look at it and be like, Okay, I got, you know, $10 million under management, how am I going to split that up into different trades? And it just happens to be in different people's accounts? So have you ever thought about increasing your rates because like a hedge fund, they can charge a percentage of the gains? An RIA can't? Can they do that? Paul: They can do that on their certains particulars criteria? I think like you have to have an investor who's has at least $2 million in investable assets. They have at least $1 million invested with you. And then you can have certain arrangements where you say, Well, if I make whatever percentage I'll make about what the s&p does, you'll split it with me, or something like that, you know? Okay, so again, it's very, it's has a lot of criteria to it can't be done, though. Okay. Yeah. Because I wouldn't say the hedge fund world is based on what you're telling me is, cuz you're basically commingling all the funds. Right? So you got to do like a statement for each person or something. Yeah. And so I think the advantage is, you can just commingle it all and then do whatever you need to do. And then at the end of the day, you somehow allocated? Allen: Right, so the thing with the hedge fund is that all the investors have to be accredited. Okay, so accredited, as you know, probably, you know, you basically you have a million dollar net worth not putting your house, or you're making upwards of 300,000 a year. So, you know, basically, so at least Paul: They have to tell you, they're accredited. Right? Allen: I think we would actually want them to be proof, you know, give me proof otherwise, we're not letting you in. Paul: That was actually in so my testing I just did is like, yeah, you want this criteria? But are you actually gonna go go check it? No. So Allen: Interesting. Okay. Because I mean, you know, the government says that the hedge funds, you know, if you're an accredited investor, you should be smarter than the average bear. And so, if you lose money, it's not that big a deal. Like you are smart enough to get into it. You know, somebody with $5,000 or $10,000. That's my life savings. No, sorry, you can't invest in this. Even though the hedge fund might be like doing 1,000,000% a year, you can't invest because you're not accredited. Ras can take basically everybody, so that was one of the things okay, somebody comes in with 50,000 as an RIA, you might just take it because it's not that much paperwork. It's not extra for you. But for a hedge fund. Yeah, no, I can't do it. Because I gotta, I gotta pay the auditing company. I gotta pay the statement company. I got to pay the customer. You know, whoever's doing customer service and answering the phone and doing all that, and salespeople and all that. So 50,000 is not going to cut it, you know, the limit is a lot higher. For sure. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, that, in that sense, totally different world. But very similar from what I'm seeing is that, you know, you're doing probably what we're gonna be doing, you know, similar. Paul: So you probably can't take qualified money like IRAs and things like that. Allen: I think they can. Yeah, yeah, I think they can, as long as a person is accredited. And so there's different regulations, 5063 C, or six, C, five, or six D, they'll those tell you, you know, if you can take accredited and non accredited, and then can you advertise or not, I'm still learning all this, it's all different, because like, if you start a Real Estate Fund, different from if you're doing a hedge fund, versus a private equity fund, so some of the rules apply to everything. Some of the rules are just separate. So I'm still learning all that. But I know that the Interactive Brokers, people, they've done webinars in the past with attorneys. So if anybody wants to start a hedge fund, you can still use the Interactive Brokers platform. And they have they actually have a separate portal, I think, for hedge funds. Yeah, I've seen that. You've seen that too? Where you can actually see what other people are doing. And what are the trades that they're making? Paul: I didn't know about that. I just knew that they had some kind of hedge fund portion of what they're doing. I didn't know exactly what it meant. Allen: Yeah. So So what they said was that, you know, the attorney was like, you know, it'll take several, you know, maybe $30,000, to set up your hedge fund, you can probably do it with a smaller amount, if you want to start an incubator fund, which is like, you know, if you have your own money, and you put in and say $300,000, and you trade it as if it's a fund, and you don't maybe that that paperwork might be like 7000, and you set that up, you treat it as a fun, you build up your track record, and be like, Oh, hey, look, you know, I was trading for six months, I got this, that or not, and then you can start advertising it, and you convert it to a full fund. And then you can say, well, look at my track record, this is what I did. And then people can come in for the full fund. So that was one of the things that they were they were talking about. But so yeah, we were we were looking at an interactive, but the one thing that interacted with their software is a little bit more clunky or less user friendly than some of the most user friendly software. Yeah, it was my personal accounts. Now. So when, do you still trade on on your own on the side? Or is all of your money in the big? Paul: I have some money still in the in the huge fund? And then, you know, I have some I have an account on the side, right? Allen: So that separate account, did that change it all after you got licensed? Because they always, you know, when you open an account, they always ask you, are you licensed? And then they're I don't know why they do that. Is there to change anything on? You're not gonna recall? Paul: Yeah. So, there's, there's occasions where you can link up an account with the master fund, and you can D link the account. So I think at one time I had, it's actually my 401k account for my accounting firm attached to the IRA account, but then I detached it. One of the main reasons was for futures. Okay, because I knew I wasn't qualified to do futures for the whole fun. But I could on a mountain account. Allen: Ah, okay. So you have to keep it separate to do the futures options. Yeah. Until you get licensed by them. And is that like a lengthy process as well? The futures options? License? Yeah. Paul: I took a series three exam back a month or so ago. So I'd studied for two or three months, and again, got a tutor. Yeah. Okay. Allen: All right. How many clients do you have right now? Paul: I'd say about 20-25. Allen: Okay. All right. Cool. And so, from a financial standpoint, has it been worth it? Paul: Yeah, it's been really good. I might, my intention when I know that, you know, once I got into it, my intention was over the years, you know, retirement age, is at my incomes shift for my CPA business or to my investment business. So I could do that, say two hours a day and retirement versus, you know, doing tax seasons and all that. CPA visits. Allen: Okay. Is that still the plan? Yes. Still plan. Awesome. Cool. So yeah, I mean, handling managing millions of dollars of assets in two hours a day. That sounds pretty good to me. Paul: That might be a pipe dream. But that's what I had in mind.  Allen: I think you could do it your own way. You're on your way. Cool. Awesome. So is there anything that I haven't asked you that you think like, oh, yeah, people need to know this. Paul: I could probably sit here and think about a few things. Not on every call. No, no, no, no. I mean, one thing you have to like for instance, a you have to have a like an email account that you Gotta add to retain all your emails for at least like five years. That's one thing to keep in mind. And like I have to send a like a balance sheet and income statement to the state of Florida every year and get someone to notarize it. You have to upload information to the FINRA site at least once a year. And that's where you pay your like on license Louisiana along Florida and things like that. So I pay my fees for those licensing booth vendors website. Allen: And that you had told me that the fee that you charge for management that comes out Interactive Brokers basically pays you every quarter, your fixed asset if I had to build it, right, yeah. Paul: Okay. So, so they do it automatically. But when I got audited, the state wanted me to actually create invoices. So the answer your question is, I'm not sure what the real requirement is. So far, I guess I met that criteria then. So I'm not actually grading him. What's the reporter right now? Okay. Allen: Yeah, I mean, because like, I mentioned, those two consultants that I had talked to, they had told me that I would have to bill everybody invoice, everybody, every quarter. And those people would have to pay me directly. So it wouldn't be taken out of their account, it would be sent directly to me that they would have to write a check every quarter. And I'm like, that's a pain in the butt. You know, that's pretty cumbersome. Yeah, if a customer has to pay, you know, a big check every quarter for management fees. And then especially if you have a down year, he's like, What am I paying for it? I don't pay for this anymore. And you don't get paid. So I was like, Okay, that's a big red flag. But I'm glad that that's not true. Cool. Okay. Paul: One thing I have figured out there is, like, there's an account I was going to take from someone from one advisors to me, and they had all their fees, like totally hidden with all these mutual funds and things like that. And so like, you know, that account, I was gonna charge 3.3%. But we weren't able to ever get to the bottom of what the other advisor was charging. So, even though they have a lot of disclosures and things like that, I think we could have pressed the issue if we really wanted to. But, um, but you know, I ended up losing that account. Allen: So did that customer realize that, that he's being charged all these things? Paul: No, no, no clue. No, I mean, whenever I sort of parted ways, and I said, you guys at least need to figure out what they're charging you. You'd be surprised at the amount of inept that's out there and people who are actually hiring advisors, like, yeah, most people do not keep like their annual statements. They couldn't tell me how much they made last year. You know, because really, when I'm taking on an account, I want to know, what their track record has been sort of what I would need to beat to make them happy. You know, a lot of them are not that attuned to that. Allen: That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, people, they work their entire lives to save up money and invest it so they can retire. But then they don't pay any attention to the money. Oh, boy.. Paul: I think it's because they don't know that much about it. So they wouldn't know what to do if it was not what they wanted, you know? Allen: Yeah. I mean, you gotta you gotta take a little bit of time to at least read the statements and figure out where's the money going? And it could be better disclosed, you know, the statements could be easier to read that that's definitely sure. That's, yeah. But it is what it is for now. Paul: Like, I have this account right now, I'm probably going pick up another six to nine or 1000. And I asked them to get their annual statements ready. Because I wanted to see what they have been. have been doing, you know, so, you know, so they didn't know if there'll be they'll find those. So let me guess. It's like, it's weird. Allen: Okay, they just like asked her her advisor. Paul: Oh, that might be red flag fight flight to them. And they are looking so yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. seem bizarre. Allen: So if somebody was thinking about starting their own advisory firm, what would you say? They would need in terms of like, what are the minimums, okay, you should have been in the market for, you know, five years, you know, or you got to know XYZ, is there anything that you would say that, you know, if you don't, if you can't even do this, and this is not for you? Paul: Well, they're planning on doing what I'm doing, they probably need at least three to five years, you know, their own market experience. But, you know, that being said, like, I just met with someone the other day, and I could put all my funds through their strategies, and just sit and coast. You know, really, they charge an extra 1% or whatever, so I'll back off of my fee a little bit. You know, so you can you can play the game different ways. Wow. So you could do like I can see a new person and starting that and just have these other you know, because they have what's called sub managers or something like that. I don't know the exact term. Basically, you're hiring other money managers to manage the money you have for your clients. Right, like sub advisors, maybe is what it's called. Okay. So I'm not saying it will totally preclude them that they didn't have three to five years. But, you know, hopefully they're drawing on someone's experience to help hold their handle that Allen: Right. And do you know how much it costs to get it up and running? Paul: I would say three to five grand. Wow, that's not much. I mean, the hardware, these firms are brought in to charge you five times that? Allen: Yeah. Okay. So well, the sub accounts. Yeah, actually, I do remember those consultants talking to me about that. Paul: They they call it sub advisors? Allen: Yeah, I think that's what it is. And it's like, yeah, you know, if you don't want to do it yourself, you can put your money, you can put your your clients money into different buckets, and then they just do it for you, and they charge and then you split the fees or whatever, or something like that. So, and then each broker, each broker dealer has different ones. So like Fidelity or Schwab will have different sub accounts versus what you could put your stuff in. But interesting, I just Just curious the ones that you had talked to what what strategies were they were using, Paul: They're using free cash flow to is their criteria for who they're investing in. So they have like international, they call a cash cow c-o-w. So they've international domestic, and things like that. So they have a different definition of free cash flow. So they're they're fearing that's the best value, their way of determining value out there, like sort of like a value fund, but their own definition of what value is. Allen: Okay, so they're investing in stocks. Paul: Yes, international and domestic.   Allen: And they handle the ins and outs. And so you could put a portion of your client's money in there, you put it all in there. So it's like, it's like an ETF. So basically, you can say I want 20% of my money to go on this domestic one 20% International. And I might, I'm in talks with them. So I might end up doing some more money that way. But so they're coming up with different sample portfolios that I can use their funds for. Allen: Okay, interesting. And so that must be a much larger company. Paul: Yeah, I'm not sure how big they are. But they're, you know, big enough to where they had like a representative here in central Florida and some of their back office helping them out. Awesome. I'm not sure their size yet. Allen: Yeah. So I mean, this rabbit hole is pretty big. You can dive in there and spend a lot of time figuring all this stuff out. Paul: Yeah, yeah. So I can see a way I could sit and close more. But you're only doing it two hours a day anyway. Allen: Cool. All right. Paul: Well, maybe we're gonna get into my retirement years, a certain amount of years. I'll just put it there and just coast. The zero hours a day. Yep. Allen: Yeah, my, my neighbor in the office next door, he's a financial adviser. He's been doing it for, I think, 25 years now. So he's built up, you know, a sizable clientele. And so now he's at the point where he wants to retire. But he doesn't know what to do with the firm. He's like, you know, he makes probably a good 500,000 a year income from it. And he's like, I want one of my kids to take over. But the kids are not really willing, and not interested. He's like, I don't know what to do. So he's still there.  So there's been periods of times or, you know, like, I sit on the CPA world deal with other investment advisors, where it's been a quite a lucrative market to get bought your practice bought out by bigger, let's say Merrill Lynch or something like that, you know, they pay some pretty big bucks to buy those books of business. Yeah, yeah. Because I mean, one of the things that the consultants told me is that once you get you get a client, that turnover, meaning the fact that they're going to leave you is not very high, they're gonna stay with you for years and years. So you can count on that money coming in, you know, that fee money coming in for a long period of time, unless you unless you totally screw it up, and then they're gonna leave. Paul: If you play the play smart. You know, if you're dealing with someone 50 years old, right now, you know, another 10 or 20 years, you're gonna pick up their kids and things like that when they need investment advice and stuff. It's, it'd be a self perpetuating thing. Allen: Yeah, yeah. And I do like the fact that there's always going to be somebody there willing to buy you, your company. You know, because a lot of times in smaller companies if you're the only person or if you got one or two employees, nobody really wants to buy the company even if it's successful. Nobody wants to buy it because they would without you there they're basically buying a job for themselves, right? It's not running on its own you're the one doing all the work in this case. Yeah, you're the one doing all the work but they don't need you. They can just, you know, have their own advisors take over. So you still get a pretty decent multiple when you sell so that's really cool too. Right? Paul: Also, I met a.. in my travels on this world. I've met the company and actually finance you if you want to buy on someone else's practice in the financial visor word world. Allen: Hmm.. So have you looked into that? Paul: I had a conversation or two with them, but I haven't really pursued it further. Yeah. Because I didn't know if I wanted to buy a larger practice. Right? Yeah. Because generally, that is a seven year payout to do that. So, you know, seven years, you'd be free and clear. Allen: That'll be interesting. Yeah. So a lot of ways to skin this cat. So you would I mean, I'm assuming that if anybody asked you, Hey, should I do this? Probably the answer is yes. Paul: Yeah, I mean, just mean, talk to people who have done it, and sort of figure out if it's a good fit for you, you know? Yeah. It's definitely can be pretty lucrative. Allen: Right? And I like the fact that it's like, for you at least it's more localized, you know, so you're not competing with somebody in California or Canada, or whatever. It's like, yeah, you guys get your clients over there. I'll have my clients over here. You know, they love me, they trust me. We hang out maybe. And sometimes. So it's not like a competitive situation. So, right. Awesome. Are you in any? Are there any, like, associations or memberships for advisors?  Paul: No, I'm not. Allen: No, but obviously, they probably have them? Paul: Yeah, I'm just not familiar. Very familiar with that. I have another advisor to hang out with suddenly sort of share some ideas. That's, that's all I have right now. Allen: And they're also private. Like on their own? Paul: Now, one of the reasons I didn't cover this in the beginning, like when I started looking into this whole thing, I didn't want to get clients and then share my fees with other people. That's why I didn't latch on to a bigger firm and start building my clients from there. So that's why I started my own Ra. So they will be my clients. And I get all the fees for them. And no one else had had rights to him. So that's, that's one of the reasons I did the way I did it. Allen: Okay. Okay. So what would be the benefits of going with a larger firm just to name recognition? Paul: Well, they have, one of the biggest things is called compliance. So like, right now, I'm my own compliance officer for my firm, okay, and larger firm like that they have whole departments that take care of compliance, for you to make sure you don't get in trouble, the regulators and so forth. So, like this other advisor, I had, he joined another firm, just so you could have that compliance piece to it. But in his firm, he can't trade options. Right? Allen: Because they're very limited. Yeah, exactly.  Paul: It's taught me to join his is up, like can't trade options. Allen: Because compliance says no. Paul: It was on the client's officer. Allen: Right. So that's why when you said you were thinking about advertising, it's the risk is on you because you're the compliance officer. So you got to know exactly what can be done and what can't be done. Right. Right. Interesting, cool. Is there anything else because  I'm out of questions. Paul: One of the things, one of the things I tell you, I looked into going with other companies, other inactive brokers when I started, okay, and like Charles Schwab wanted you to have $7 million you're managing before you could go with them. Allen: Whoa, okay. And they're the biggest right right now, I think. Paul: I think so. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one reasons with Interactive Brokers, because they didn't have the minimums like that. I didn't really check too much rather than other people. Allen: So and how's your customer service at Interactive Brokers, because they for personal accounts, they don't have a good reputation. Paul: Yeah, they have a separate line, you can call as a professional advisor. So it's, I get pretty quick attention. Usually, you know, it's not it's not perfect, but you know, it's decent. Yeah, but you're happy. Yeah, I'm not saying that. I'm sure other companies have better customer service but you know, for right now, they, you know, I might need to call him a few times, but I get what I needed if I need need to.. Allen: And how are their margins and Commissions? Paul: Commission's are pretty low. I don't have the exact numbers I just know less than like $1 per 100 shares. Allen: And who comes out of the customers account? Obviously. Paul: Each person like when you do a trade display something all the counselee they pick up their own fees. Allen: Cool. All right. Well, thank you Paul. You know, Paul's website is again BusinessAdvisors.Pro. Paul said that he could reach out you know, you guys can reach out to him if you have any questions. And Paul is also in our other memberships are other programs as well past trading formula blank check and credit spread. So if you guys are members of those, you can reach out to him there. You'll find him in the group. And he's been very gracious with his time. So I do want to thank you and And he's very active in the group and you know you've been helping a lot of newer people as well they're so appreciate you there. Interesting place, interesting world and as I dive in I'm probably going to reach out to you more. Paul: Sounds great, I appreciate it.  Allen: Thank you thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon JOIN OUR FREE PRIVATE FACEBOOK GROUP: https://optiongenius.com/alliance  Like our show? Please leave us a review here - even one sentence helps. Thank you!

In this episode, I give a quick recap of my interview with Paul Allen including: - Why he believes the Vikings are going to  the Super Bowl this year- Why he says doing hospice care was the best week of his entire life - The bible verse that completely changed his lifeAnd so much more...  Paul Allen is the play-by-play voice for the Minnesota Vikings, the radio host of the 9 to Noon show on KFAN and the longtime racetrack announcer at Canterbury Park.Click Here to connect with Paul*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like-minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.Follow me on Instagram: @ryanhorn25

Paul Allen is the play-by-play voice for the Minnesota Vikings, the radio host of the 9 to Noon show on KFAN and the longtime racetrack announcer at Canterbury Park.In this episode, we discuss:- Why he believes the Vikings are going to  the Super Bowl this year- Why he says doing hospice care was the best week of his entire life - The bible verse that completely changed his lifeAnd so much more...  Click Here to connect with Paul**************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like-minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.Follow Ryan on Instagram: @ryanhorn25

In this episode, I give a quick recap of my interview with Paul Allen including: - How he beat out 29 other applicants to get his first job as a racetrack announcer with no prior experience- His faith journey and why he is so passionate about studying the Bible - The #1 thing he did as a young man that prepared him to be a great announcerAnd so much more...  Paul Allen is the play-by-play voice for the Minnesota Vikings, the radio host of the 9 to Noon show on KFAN and the longtime racetrack announcer at Canterbury Park.Click Here to connect with Paul*************************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like-minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.Follow me on Instagram: @ryanhorn25

Paul Allen is the play-by-play voice for the Minnesota Vikings, the radio host of the 9 to Noon show on KFAN and the longtime racetrack announcer at Canterbury Park.In this episode, we discuss:- How he beat out 29 other applicants to get his first job as a racetrack announcer with no prior experience- His faith journey and why he is so passionate about studying the Bible - The #1 thing he did as a young man that prepared him to be a great announcerAnd so much more...  Click Here to connect with Paul**************************************************You will never maximize your potential on your own so I'm personally inviting you to come and join me in the private Extraordinary Man Facebook group so you can level up your business and your life. Just Click Here to join the Extraordinary Man private Facebook group. Iron sharpens iron and this is the #1 place for you to connect with me and other like-minded men who are on a mission to maximize their potential. My goal is to help you become the man God created you to be in all areas of your life. So come and join us in the Facebook group and upgrade your business and your life.Follow Ryan on Instagram: @ryanhorn25

Mike: Common-ism [Theme song] Nazi SS UFOsLizards wearing human clothesHinduism's secret codesThese are nazi lies Race and IQ are in genesWarfare keeps the nation cleanWhiteness is an AIDS vaccineThese are nazi lies Hollow earth, white genocideMuslim's rampant femicideShooting suspects named Sam HydeHiter lived and no Jews died Army, navy, and the copsSecret service, special opsThey protect us, not sweatshopsThese are nazi lies Mike: Welcome to another episode of the Nazi Lies podcast. I'm happy to be joined by Rutgers History Professor, Paul Hanebrink, author of the really easy to read book, A Specter Haunting Europe: The Myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. The book charts the development of the belief that communism or certain forms of it are instruments of Jewish power and control, from its pre-history and medieval antisemitism and Red Scare propaganda, through his development among proto-fascist and ultimately a Nazi Party, and the legacy of fascist campaigns against Judeo-Bolshevism in former fascist states. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Hanebrink. Paul Hanebrink: Thanks very much for having me, it's a pleasure to be here. Mike: So before I opened your book, I was expecting to hear a story of the fascist myth of Judeo-Bolshevism as told primarily by fascists through to the present day, but that's not the story you tell. Instead, you tell more of a people's history of believing that Judaism and communism in whole or in part are linked and tied to bad things generally. Besides the fact that this is your area of expertise, why did you decide to tell this history? Paul: I'm glad that you picked up on that. I am very much interested in how this myth or this conspiracy theory connects to a whole host of other issues. And I came to it actually when I was in Hungary in the 1990s. I'm a historian of Hungary by training, and I was doing my research for my dissertation, and my dissertation was on Hungarian nationalism and its relationship to Christianity in the 1920s and '30s and '40s. I was really struck by how so many of the different phrases and ideas and, sort of, thinking about Jews and communism which I was reading in my archival sources during the day, were reflected in journalism and in sort of public discussion about the recently vanished communist regime and what that had meant for Hungary and for the Hungarian national society. And I knew also that this was not just a particularly Hungarian issue, that this same kind of conversation, the same kind of debates about the relationship of Jews to communism was going on in other countries across the former Soviet bloc, especially in Poland, especially in Romania. And I knew that it had also been a major factor in Nazi ideology and an issue that kept coming back in strange ways even in German society. So I wanted to try to think about why this idea had such legs, as it were, why it seemed to endure across so many different kinds of regimes, and also try to figure out why it was so ubiquitous if you will, why it could be appearing in so many different places and so many different societies simultaneously. And so the book is an attempt to try to paint a broad canvas in which I could explore the different things that it meant to different people at different times. Mike: Okay. One thing I brought up in book club was that the book almost feels like a military history in the way you tell it, very event- and people-heavy and diachronic across the chapters, but told geographically within the chapters. So talk a little bit about your choice of historiography, because it definitely feels like a careful choice you made in how consistent your style remains throughout. Paul: Yeah. Well, I mean, as I said, one of the things I wanted to do was I wanted to capture the sense that this was a conspiracy theory that was powerful in a lot of places at the same time, and that it didn't radiate out from one place to another, but that it sort of sprang up like mushrooms in a lot of different places in different periods throughout the 20th century. I wanted a broad geographical canvas, and I didn't want to just simply focus on one country or do a kind of comparison between two countries or something like that. So I wanted to sort of figure out a way to tell this as a European story, and to be able to track the different ways in which this conspiracy theory circulated across borders and from one political formation or political group to another and also over time. The other thing that I wanted to focus on with this book in addition to the broad geographical canvas was also the notion that I didn't want a book that was just going to be a lot of different antisemitic texts one after the other, and so I just kind of piled them up in a big heap and kind of read them closely and pulled out all the different symbolisms. I wanted instead, to try to show using carefully chosen examples of people or groups or political parties or moments in history or events to really show how this ideological substance, this conspiracy myth, became something that had meaning and had power for people that shaped the way in which they saw and interpreted what they were doing and what others were doing. And so for that reason, I think, very carefully throughout each chapter, I try to find actors in a way that I could hang the narrative on and that I could sort of develop the analysis by leading with specific kind of concrete, more vivid examples. And that may be perhaps what you picked up on when you were reading it. Mike: Okay, so let's get into it. A lot of people know kind of the rudiments of old-school antisemitism and anti-communism, but not how they co-evolved into the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. So, how did antisemitism and anti-communism become modern? Paul: Yeah, it's an interesting question. What I wanted to try to think about in the book–and I explore this I think most carefully in the first chapter–is the way in which very old ideas about Jews, specifically about the ways in which Jews, have been used to symbolize in a sense a world turned upside down or illegitimate power or some kind of dystopia. And you can see this particular set of ideas throughout a number of centuries going back into the Middle Ages. So I begin with this, this idea that Jewish power is somehow illegitimate power. And then I look very carefully at the accusations that were circulating in Europe during World War I about Jews in a sense gathering power on the homefront while the true members of the nation were away on the front fighting. And so there was a real concern across Europe about Jewish loyalty and about Jews as being potential subversives or traitors or spies. And that feeds very easily into Jews as revolutionaries. So you have these two things that come together in that sort of end of World War I moment where also the Bolshevik revolution breaks out, and that there's this very old language that is familiar and comfortable to so many people thinking about Jews as eager to sort of accumulate illegitimate power, that's the very old story that reaches back to the Middle Ages, but tied to this very particular moment in European history in which there's concern about Jewish responsibility for the collapse, for example, of empires from Russia to the Austro-Hungarian empire, and the role that they're playing in revolutionary movements and revolutionary politics in so many different places across the European continent at that time. And I think it's the crucible of those two in that moment that really creates the Judeo-Bolshevik myth as a particular form of Jewish conspiracy theory. I'm not saying it's different. I'm saying that there are many different faces and iterations of the myth of a Jewish conspiracy, but that this is a particular one or particular version. And that it does particular ideological things, particular political things for people during the 20th century. Mike: Okay, so if modern anti-Semites and modern anti-communists largely belong to the right, their ideas coalesced into this conspiracy theory of Judeo-Bolshevism. Now you honestly don't spend a large amount of space in the book describing the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism, and there's two things going on in your book. On the one hand, you have the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism which is this theory that there is a secret cabal of Jews who control the world through joint efforts of banking finance and world communist movements that operate to destabilize Western civilization through financial panics and revolutions, so there's that. Then on the other hand there's what you spend more time on, which is the perception that communism or at least its excesses in actual existing communism, is Jewish in origin and operation. Like, it's not necessarily a belief in a conspiracy necessarily so much as a dislike of Jews and the belief that they're inordinately involved in communism. So when antisemitism and anti-communism became modern and intertwined, the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism, this totalizing conspiracy theory started to form. Who were the major players in that and what kinds of influence do they have? Paul: Yeah. I guess there are two things I want to pick up on in your question. The first is that I think you're right that I'm more interested in approaching the question in a particular way. And that is that, you know, a lot of the kind of antisemitic rhetoric and antisemitic ideology from the 20th century, there was this real insistence that you could somehow count the number of Jews who were in communist parties, and you could determine that this was a high number and that therefore Jews were somehow responsible for communism. And so much of the politics around trying to resist that was around kind of factually disproving that. I find it much more interesting to sort of not get drawn into the trap of saying, "Well, it's partly right or partly wrong," but to look instead at the way in which this conspiracy gained momentum, and that it came to seem so self-evidently right and sort of self-evidently commonsensical to so many different groups of people. And that brings me to the second part of your question. It's very interesting especially if you look at this moment right after World War I in the early 1920s across Europe, you find all kinds of different political groups across a wide selection of the political spectrum raising this conspiracy theory and using it to try to make sense of the fact that this massive revolutionary movement had broken out. So you certainly find fascists or perhaps proto-fascists, if you like, in the early 1920s really making this central to their ideology. Certainly you see that in the early Nazi Party but also in a number of the other far-right paramilitary groups that you can see active in different parts of Europe at this time. But also, you know, people who might call more mainstream conservatives, people who are definitely interested in a kind of national consolidation but very distrustful of the tactics of fascists or of national socialists, making use of this also, for example, to talk about threats to national sovereignty or threats to borders or, you know, the fear that Jewish refugees from war-torn parts of Eastern Europe are going to flood across the borders, and when they do, they're going to bring with them a revolutionary infection which is going to cause radicalism to break out at home. You can find it also among religious conservatives who are concerned primarily with the breakdown of moral and social order and who are interested in combating what they see as being the evils or the ills of secular modernism. They also blame Jewish communists for in a sense driving it, but also being a kind of reflection of these deeper secular trends which they strongly oppose. So you can find this language in a lot of different places, and there's, in a sense, kind of different coalitions in different countries that form among groups who disagree about a number of policy issues, but have a certain kind of common shared understanding that Jews and political activism, or left political activism and certainly revolutionary politics are somehow all related. And that somehow particular tension has to be paid to that constellation of threats in order to forestall or to ward off some kind of greater danger or challenge to the national body. Mike: So fascist parties rode the wave of the relative popularity of the Judeo-Bolshevism myth, and it became kind of a guiding philosophy in a way for fascist public policy. So talk about Judeo-Bolshevism in the hands of fascist states. Paul: Here I would fast forward to the late 1930s when you really see Nazi Germany making a pitch for being the most resolute enemy of communism on the European continent. I think one of the things that you can see as the Nazi vision of a new order of Europe comes into focus is that people–and far-right movements and far-right nationalist movements across the continent that see their own place in that and see a kind of shared goals and shared vision–find Judeo-Bolshevism almost a kind of shared language in which they can create common ground for working with or collaborating, if you like, with Nazi power. You can see this in France especially on the far right, just before and after the creation of Vichy and the military defeat of France in 1940. You see the far-right really seeing the Judeo-Bolshevik threat as a kind of glue which will allow them to work together with German power to regenerate France. You can also see this on the Eastern Front after the German army invades the Soviet Union in 1941 in Operation Barbarossa. You can find far-right Ukrainian nationalists, Lithuanian nationalists, Latvian nationalists who see the fight against Jewish communists as being a way to make common cause with Nazi power in the hopes that when the war is over, and as they believe, the Germans win, they will be able to reap the rewards by getting, for example, statehood or some other kind of political power. You see this also amongst some of Nazi Germany's East European allies in the war against the Soviet Union, both Hungary and Romania, although those two states are in bitter opposition over so many things, especially territorial claims. Both of them go to war on the side of Nazi Germany precisely because they believe that after the war is over and after Germany has won, they will get some special dispensation in the peace that follows. They go to war against the Soviet Union in the same belief that it's a crusade against Judeo-Bolshevik threat in the East, and that the war against the Soviet Union has to be fought in this way. And so fascist movements, fascist states, or fascists who would like to have a state in the future, see in the Judeo-Bolshevik threat not only a threat to their own national interest, but also a space of common ground or a space of cooperation which will allow them to work with Nazi power even if they disagree with Nazi ideology on other points, and even if the Nazi vision for Europe doesn't actually pan out for them in the way that they hope. Mike: Okay, so with the collapse of the fascist states came an almost immediate transformation of the public's perception of the Judeo-Bolshevism myth. So the new states that emerged were expected to denounce such prejudices as fascist and hence bad, and publics to varying degrees were expected to comply. So talk about the, shall we call it, 'withdrawal effects' of the collapse of fascist states on their publics? Paul: Yeah, you can see this most vividly in Eastern Europe where the collapse of fascism and the defeat of Nazi Germany is accompanied by the arrival of the Soviet Army and the immediate ambitions to political power of communist parties and communist movements across the region. You can see that communist parties have to struggle to seek legitimacy among people in societies where so many people are very well accustomed to thinking of communism as something alien, and also something Jewish. And so from the very beginning, you see communist parties and communist movements wrestling with the fact that in certain segments of society, there's a kind of association of them with Jewish power. And so they try to navigate this. You can also see it, for example, in the efforts by post-war regimes in transition that are either communist-controlled or on the way to being communist-controlled, who are having trials of war criminals. There are many people, you can see this in Hungary and in Romania, who look at these trials and you can say, "Well, these are not trials of fascists. This is in fact a kind of Jewish justice or a kind of Jewish revenge." And so they associate the search for or the desire for justice after the war and the desire to punish real criminals with illegitimate Jewish power that has only come into being because of the fact that the Soviet power has placed it there. And so the fact that there's a complete regime change doesn't change the fact that people across the region still have the memory of the legacy of this language that had been baked into all aspects of political life for the preceding two or three decades. And this very much shapes the way in which people see Soviet power, see Soviet takeover, see communist parties, see especially the crimes that Red Army soldiers commit–you know, rapes and seizures of property–are immediately associated in many people's minds as being somehow Jewish crimes. All of this seems plausible because fascist movements and fascist regimes had conspired with the Germans to eliminate Jewish presence from life across Eastern Europe. And now after 1945, survivors of the Holocaust are in public again trying to put together their lives. And so a group of people who had been absent from public space are back in it. And so that only kind of heightens the attention around Jews and around how suddenly the tables seem to have been turned and how the new political regimes that are coming into being are somehow antithetical to the true national interest or the true national identity. Mike: All right. There was also a certain evolution in the West in response to the experience of World War Two and its aftermath regarding Judaism and communism. What did that look like? Paul: Yeah, one of the things I found really interesting, and I did devote a chapter to it because I did find it so curious, is that at the same time that this story that I'm telling you in Eastern Europe was going on, there is this really interesting transformation of the relationship in political discourse of Jews and communism in Western Europe as a result of the Cold War. You can see this most clearly in the kind of ubiquity of the notion of Judeo-Christian civilization as the thing that Cold War liberals are going to protect against Communist aggression. And this very interesting migration of the adjective Judeo from, you know, Judeo-Bolshevism to Judeo-Christian civilization. And you can see this in all aspects of American popular culture and political culture in the '40s and '50s, a willingness to compare using theories of totalitarianism to compare Nazi crimes to Soviet crimes and to present Jews as being victims of both. But also to, you know, really kind of focusing on Jewish communists–there was a lot of focus for example on Ana Pauker in Romania who served as a really important Communist official–as being, you know, Jews who had lost their way and who had lost their sense of religious tradition and religious identity and become completely transformed morally into this almost monster. There are lots of articles about figures like this presenting her as being just something that's called a Stalin in a skirt or something like this. And these figures were then presented as being empowered by communism to attack the moral and religious values on which Western civilization was founded and which the US-led West was going to defend against Soviet expansion and the expansion especially of Communism and communist ideas into the West. I guess a way to bring it back is to say that there's a very interesting way in which this relationship of Jews and communism is completely recoded and reshuffled by Cold War liberals in the 1940s and 1950s to create this kind of very stout, multi-confessional anti-communism that was so prevalent in the US at that time. Mike: All right, so back to the East. So the death of Stalin and subsequent public inquests into his regime revealed excesses that shaped public perception and public policy across the former fascist world. How did the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism play in the post-Stalin world? Paul: You know what's really interesting is that once Stalin dies, there is a rush by Communist Party leaders across Eastern Europe to blame the excesses of Stalinism on somebody or some group in order to present themselves as charting a new way forward that is going to make communism more compatible with the national character, the true sort of national interests, or to create a kind of truly national path to communism. You can see this happening in Poland and Hungary and Romania and other places as well. And one of the ways in which that sort of political strategy works is by demonizing or accusing the most hardline Stalinist leaders who are now discredited for being anti-national or unnational, and for being Jews. And there were a number of figures who were sort of held up as being examples of this. You can see this in Hungary most clearly where the leading figures of the Communist Party in the early 1950s in the Stalinist period were all men of Jewish background. And so the Hungarian Communist regime, without really launching a major antisemitic campaign, let it be known in all sorts of different ways that this new way forward after the death of Stalin, after especially the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, was going to be built around creating a much more truly Hungarian form of communism that will *wink, wink, nod, nod* have many more ethnic Hungarians at the forefront. You can see something very similar going on in a number of different countries, coming most particularly to a head in 1968 in Poland when there is a major campaign against Jews, accusing them of being cosmopolitan, accusing them of being Zionist, as a way of saying that in fact, the Communist regime in Poland is the truly national regime and it truly represents the interests of the Polish nation. And so Jews become the enemy of this true national communism, and the fervor around that leads the vast majority of what remains of the Polish-Jewish community to emigrate in 1968, leaving what is today a very, very tiny community. Mike: Okay. So, eventually the communist states collapse and their economies are restructured along neoliberal lines. How does Judeo-Bolshevism rear its head? Paul: It rears its head, I think, in two ways. The first is in this, again, as a kind of an antithesis or a kind of opposition, you see right-wing nationalists coming to the fore in 1989 very ambitiously trying to create a new right-wing political party, new right-wing political movement in societies where that had been banned for decades. And they set themselves up as being the true spokespeople for the nation in opposition to the Communist regime that went before which they say was an imposition from abroad by forces that were anti-national, completely forgetting the ways in which the communist regimes across Eastern Europe had worked so hard to try to present themselves as national and to try to build up national legitimacy. And in that process, you find right-wing nationalists really very easily slipping into describing the regimes that had gone as being Jewish or inspired by Jews or recalling the role that Jews had played at various moments in it. So you see it coming back in this politics of memory. The other way in which you see it coming back, and it also has to do with historical memory, is the debates about how to understand World War II and the Holocaust. The stakes around that are very high because in the 1990s, as some of your listeners will undoubtedly remember, there was this new focus that continues to this day on Holocaust memory as being a kind of token or sign of a society that had embraced liberal values of human rights and democracy, the idea that you know, if we commemorate the Holocaust or remember the Holocaust, that's a sign that a society is developing towards becoming a mature democracy. And so for that reason there was a lot of intense interest in how the Holocaust should be represented, how it should be remembered, how it should be written about, how it should be talked about. And in a number of different societies across the former Communist East, you have nationalists who are very wary of this European liberal project, who express their wariness as a dissatisfaction with a memory of the war which they say is one-sided and which they say only prefaces the memories of what they would call "others' Jewish memory", and which doesn't pay sufficient attention to the crimes of communists that had been committed against “us,” “us” being the national community without Jews. And in those debates, there's a lot of focus on what role did Jews play in Communist coming to power right after World War II? What role did Jews play in those parts of Eastern Europe where the Soviet Army had turned up in 1939 in Eastern Poland, parts of Romania, for example? And, you know, did they welcome the Soviet Army and did they, at that time, betray the nation? And how should we remember that? So there was a lot of focus in the 1990s, and into today, about how Jews, communism, fascism, and the Holocaust should all be remembered. Some of your listeners might remember or know about the big controversy in Poland around the historian Jan Gross' book, Jedwabne, which had to do with a big, a truly terrible pogrom in which the Jews of this one particular town were killed by their neighbors. At the core of that event was the accusation that they had collaborated with the Soviets when the Soviets were in power between 1939 and 1941. And that that issue became a live one in Poland in the 2000s because it was tied up with these debates about how to remember the past, but also how to imagine the Polish future in Europe going forward. Mike: Okay, and now you take the book to the present day. So how does the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism live with us today? Paul: I think it lives in a number of different ways. The first place that you see it is in what you might call the ideological arsenal of the far-right in a lot of different countries. If you listened to, for example, what the marchers were saying in Charlottesville in 2017, many of them were talking about how Jews will not replace “us,” “us” being White nationalists. They also in a kind of knee-jerk way were going on about how they were opposed to communism, even though I don't think there were any communists anywhere in the area. But nonetheless, they saw communists as being somehow related. You can see this in the number of really horrific shootings of Jews by shooters in this country and elsewhere, where Jews are associated with immigration. There's this accusation that Jewish cosmopolitans are somehow ringleaders or are organizing the migration of other sorts of racial inferiors into the country. And that's a kind of real play and adaptation of something that was central to Nazi ideology. When, you know, Nazi Germany went to war against the Soviet Union, one of their main arguments was that the Soviet Union was controlled by Jews and that Jewish commissars were going to lead armies of racial subhumans or racial inferiors into the heart of Europe. And that the head of this Jewish-led army were going to be millions and millions of different kinds of migrants who were going to swamp Europe. You can see that kind of language being repurposed and repositioned by the far right to fit into immigration debates today. So that's one place: on the far right. The other place where you really see it is the, kind of, reshuffling of the Jewish conspiracy, and I think this is where I would say the book that I've written really tries to focus on how this particular version of the Jewish conspiracy theory or the Jewish conspiracy myth or the myths of Jewish power took a particular form at a particular historical moment in the 20th century. And that with the end of communism, there has been a reshuffling, and so now the face of the Jewish enemy or the great threat is not a Jewish communist like, let's say, Leon Trotsky who figures so prominently in anti-communist ideology throughout the 20th century, but is now someone like George Soros who is anything but a communist, obviously. He is a very wealthy financier, someone who's not only made a lot of money in the financial markets but also is using it to try to promote things like the open society through his nongovernmental organizations. And so you see this idea of an international Jewish plot or an international Jewish conspiracy linked to things like cosmopolitanism, which are anti-national. These themes have been reshuffled, refolded, and repurposed into a now what is the post-communist age. And so in some sense, if the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism is becoming a kind of substance of historical memory, you can see the conspiracy theory that was at the heart of it lives on because it has acquired, in a sense, new clothes. There's new language to talk about it because it's being fit into new scenarios and put to new purposes. Mike: All right. Well, Dr. Hanebrink, thank you so much for coming on the Nazi Lies Podcast to talk about the myth of Judeo-Bolshevism. The book, again, is A Spectre Haunting Europe, out from the Belknap Press which is an imprint of Harvard. Dr. Hanebrink, thank you once again. Paul: Thank you very much for having me, it was a pleasure talking with you. Mike: The Nazi Lies book club meets every week to discuss the books of upcoming guests on the podcast. Come join us on Discord. A subscription to Patreon gets you access starting as low as $2. Thanks for listening. [Theme song]  

In a profession steeped in tradition, technological advances can come slowly to the legal world. Given the strapped for cash nature of Public Defense, it is essential that PDs break from the tech aversion prevalant in the legal world. That's where my guests for today's show come into play. Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel in Bexar County, Texas, and Paul Chambers, Public Defender at the Far West Texas Office, are on a mission to modernize the system.  Public defenders almost notoriously never have enough time. But when Rocky and Paul discovered automation, they found a way to speed up the system while giving public defenders time to do more things aimed at client focused representation. In this episode, Rocky and Paul talk about how they've implemented automation within the Texas indigent system and the positive effects it's had for all parties involved.  Their passion for creating a system that better helps their clients in cost effective ways could truly revolutionize the way many offices are doing buisness! Key Topics and Takeaways:   Where Rocky and Paul fit into the Texas public defense system. [7:28] What public defenders don't have time to do. [16:36] How they implemented automation into their offices. [22:43] What could go wrong with computer automation. [34:42] Assigned council contract counsel and automation. [39:32] The evolution of automation. [48:20] Pushbacks to automation. [54:07]   Guests:   Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel, Legal Technology Resource Attorney, Bexar County Texas   Paul Chambers, Public Defender Far West Texas Office   Resources:   Far West Texas Regional Public Defender   Memorable Quotes:   “I think that's a very positive thing for people to hear criminal defense attorneys have souls.” (10:16, Hunter)   “I kind of started focusing my time on learning these domains, learning about data science, learning about process automation, robotic process automation, business, process automation, trying to kind of stamp my feet and say, hey, we gotta be paying attention to this. This is something that could really change the game.” (16:03, Paul)   “The things that we as attorneys need to be focused on is the thing that we have the least amount of time to do, which is why the system is exactly the way it is.” (19:24, Paul)   “You've got people doing things, these tedious processes that take hours, and they can be boiled down to a click of a button.” (26:45, Rocky)   “The future for public defenders, I think is pretty huge. I can see a world where as close to zero of repetitive data entry and non-legal work is happening on a case or in an office. And that means a lot.” (43:09, Paul)   “The point is you can't get somebody to create something for you. We're moving to a world where we create it for ourselves.” (49:49, Rocky)   Contact Hunter Parnell: hwparnell@publicdefenseless.com Instagram www.publicdefenseless.com

The Close Shave - (B&B Investigations, #3) The latest case involves one of Donna's old classmates - wed to a mysterious stranger, left destitute... now her life is in danger! Written and produced by Julie Hoverson  Cast List Paul Bette  - Joel Harvey Donna Bella  - Julie Hoverson Goldy Tailor  - Crystal Thomson Captain OftheGuard - Reynaud LeBoeuf Rumplestiltskin  - Philomen Vanderbeck Mrs. Edwina Beard - Rhys TM Mr. Beard - Benjamin Lind Mr. Rexmusson - H. Keith Lyons Mulva - Katharine D. Clark Frederick - Cary Ayers Thug - Danar Hoverson Music by  Somewhere off Jazz Street Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's 1940s detective agency... with a twist, can't you tell?" *********************************************** The Close Shave Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Paul Bette Donna Bella Goldy Tailor Captain OftheGuard Mrs. Edwina Beard Mr. Beard Mr. Rexmusson, Edwina's father Rumplestiltskin thug Frederick, the butler Mulva, the new wife OLIVIA     Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's the office of a private eye, can't you tell?  MUSIC SOUND     DOOR OPENS GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may I --[cuts off in disgust]  Sorry.  We don't need no cleaning staff. EDWINA    [very posh sounding, correcting her]  Any cleaning staff. GOLDY    [puzzled] Any cleaning staff, what? EDWINA    [dismissive mutter] I'm surprised you don't rhyme.  [up] I am here to hire a private investigator.  I have heard that this firm is very.... discreet. SOUND    DOOR OPENS GOLDY    Discreet yes.  Cheap no.  You better have-- DONNA    Edwina?  Edwina Rexmusson? EDWINA    [cussing]  Oh, goblins.  [up, false gushy]  Donna!  It's been simply ages! DONNA    What are you doing here?  And what's with the getup? EDWINA    [trying to keep composure] Oh... Donna!  Are you ...here to hire an investigator as well?  DONNA    Um, no.  I... am the investigator. EDWINA    [snooty] Oh? DONNA    [sharp] Dressed like THAT, I wouldn't sneer, sweetheart.  [nicer]  Besides, whatever's wrong, I'm probably the only investigator in town who could truly understand.  Come along.  [to Goldy] Do we have any cocoa? EDWINA    [breaking into tears] Oh!  You remembered! DONNA    [stage whisper]  And a box of tissues.  [to Edwina]  My office is right over here. MUSIC    VOICEOVER DONNA    Edwina was one of those snooty girls I'd gone to school with, back before my family's fortunes fell.  [losing track] Funny.  Failed to figure on fff-- [thinks, sighs] alliteration.  [back]  From what I could recall, though I hadn't really paid attention, she'd dropped out of sight about a year back.  Her current state, dressed in - well let's face it - rags, haggard and undernourished, was shocking.  GOLDY    Flabbergasting, even. DONNA    Shh! PAUL    Do you need me? DONNA    Not yet.  You're still on that breach of contract, aren't you? PAUL    I've just about got it wrapped up.  Found three crickets and a snail that will swear to witnessing the ball retrieval.  [confident] He'll get what's coming to him.  I'll just listen in?  If you don't mind?  Nothing more boring than a stakeout. DONNA    Gotcha.  [clears throat] I waited for Edwina to calm down enough to talk. MUSIC    FADES OUT EDWINA    [blows nose excessively into handkerchief]  DONNA    Try some cocoa.  You'll feel better.  Now take your time and tell me what's wrong. EDWINA    [sips, sighs]  Oh... It's my husband. DONNA    Oh?  I guess I didn't know you were married.  Not that I've been much in society recently. EDWINA    Oh! yes.  Maybe you are the one person who can understand.  My father was absolutely set on my marrying, but I wanted... well... DONNA    A career? EDWINA    No. DONNA    Romance? EDWINA    No. DONNA    A Pony?  What? EDWINA    [painful admission] I just wanted... my own way.  More than anything else, I didn't want to give in and do what father wanted. DONNA    I take it he was not amused? EDWINA    [mirthless laugh]  He kept parading eligible bachelors around, and I... I kept shooting them down.  This one was too fat, that one too thin, that one too hairy-- DONNA    There's something cuddly about "hairy". EDWINA    Oh, don't even go there!!!  Why my husband-- DONNA    Sorry!  EDWINA    So father, exasperated, said I would be married before my birthday, like it or not.  And if I wouldn't take any of the suitable men, I would end up [sniffles] wed to the first man to come to the door.  [sobs, then wails]  Even if he was a pattycake!!! DONNA    What's wrong with--? EDWINA    [wails]  Waaahhhh! DONNA    Yowtch.  And this was last year? EDWINA    [sniffs, then tries to calm] Almost exactly a year ago.  How can I forget?  The day before my 21st birthday, my father tossed me at this.... "person", ran the paperwork through, and threw me out of the house.  Since then... Well, you see how I am. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    For all her suffering, Edwina was holding up pretty well.  She had gone from pampered princess to long-suffering housewife in one fell swoop.  Had to learn to cook, clean, and even run her husband's little china shop.  She'd been tempered in the fire.  And she used to be nothing BUT temper. GOLDY    There's plenty like that. DONNA    I am ignoring you.  MUSIC     CUTS OUT SUDDENLY EDWINA    Me? DONNA    Sorry.  Nothing.  So what exactly do you need help with?  EDWINA    Oh, that!  Someone is trying to kill me. DONNA    Really? MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    Suddenly a simple domestic case had turned very interesting indeed.  DONNA    Edwina said that on two different occasions, there had been "accidents" that might have killed her, if not for this "strange man".  MUSIC FADES SOUND    IN CAR PAUL    Did she say what he looked like? DONNA    She said he looked vaguely familiar, but had a scarf covering the lower half his face.  PAUL    And these "accidents?" DONNA    Nothing she could take to the cops.  She felt a hand push her on a street corner, and would have gone right out into traffic.  Except... PAUL    Except for this stranger? DONNA    Yes.  He grabbed her and pulled her back.  That was the first time.  She wrote it off, figuring someone just lost their balance. PAUL    But... then? DONNA    Yeah.  She'd just shut up shop for the night, was heading home, and a piano fell on her. PAUL    You're kidding?!? DONNA    Nope.  It was being lifted to an upstairs apartment, and the ropes just... gave way.  PAUL    And the guy? DONNA    Swooped in on a motorcycle and pushed her out of the way. PAUL    At best, he's been following her everywhere.  DONNA    At worst, he's part of it. PAUL    So she wants us to-- DONNA    First, find out who might be trying to kill her.  Second find this guy.  And [sigh] If we find out anything about her husband along the way.... PAUL    [grr]  I hate matrimony cases.  [backpedaling] not that I hate matrimony, though!  [a moment, musing/hinting]  Cuddly? DONNA    What? PAUL    [too quick] Nothing. MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER PAUL    I figured I'd start with a trip to the delivery company, see who might have ordered that piano-- DONNA    Or who inquired about it.  PAUL    Yes.  Was this accident a spur of the moment crime, or something much more sinister? DONNA    I decided to look into who might want Edwina dead, and why.  I had a few contacts at the hall of records who liked nothing better than rooting out such juicy tidbits of gossip. PAUL    What are you thinking? DONNA    There's only a couple of possible motives for murder - money and passion being the best possibilities in this case.  DONNA    And since Edwina's father cut her off without a simolean to her name, there either had to be money she didn't know about-- PAUL    Long lost heirs?  That's a stretch. DONNA    [a bit annoyed] OR it had to do with her husband, the aptly named Mr. Beard. PAUL    First name? DONNA    Apparently they're not that familiar. PAUL    [flabbergasted!] What? MUSIC CUTS OUT SUDDENLY PAUL    Seriously?  She doesn't know his first name? DONNA    He doesn't talk to her much, except to give orders. PAUL    Even... um... when...? DONNA    [hinting] They sleep in separate rooms. PAUL    [stunned] Oh.  Who IS this guy? DONNA    That's what I plan to find out.  Ah!  Hall of records.  My stop. PAUL    Right.  Meet for dinner? DONNA    Of course. MUSIC    VOICEOVER PAUL    I watched her walk away, a red-haired slither of pure lusciousness.  [grr] At least until the car behind me started to honk. SOUND    HONK ENDS VOICEOVER MUSIC SOUND    CAR STARTS SOUND    PHONE RINGS, PICKS UP GOLDY    B&B Investigations, how may I direct-- EDWINA    [on filter] It happened again! GOLDY    What happened? EDWINA    Just tell Donna!  Get her to come to my place.  She has the address.  Quickly! Before my husband gets home! GOLDY    I'll see what I can do. EDWINA    It's a matter of life and death! SOUND    PHONE HANGS UP, IS SET DOWN GOLDY    Hmm.  Now let's see - How do they DO that? MUSIC    FOR VOICEOVER GOLDY    Well, that was easy.  [speaking loudly, as if trying to be noticed]  I was trying desperately to figure out how to get a message to my boss, Donna Bella. DONNA    You don't have to yell! GOLDY    [normal tone] The client called. DONNA    Edwina. GOLDY    We ain't been formally introduced.  Besides, I'm trying to be all professional here. DONNA    OK, just tell me what you got. GOLDY    She needs you over there lickety split. DONNA    Did she actually say--? GOLDY    I'm paraphrasing.  DONNA    Fine.  Now leave the voiceover to me.  [beat]  Ok.  I caught a cab and raced to Edwina's fifth floor walkup.  It was as old and careworn as her dress.  I really started to sympathize.  MUSIC    OUT SOUND    KNOCKING ON THE DOOR EDWINA    [shriek] Who is it? DONNA    It's me! SOUND    HEAVY FOOTSTEP, DOWN THE HALL DONNA    [gasp]  Hello? SOUND    LOTS OF LOCKS UNLOCKING DONNA    [whispered to the door] I'll be right back! EDWINA    No! DONNA    Shh! SOUND    QUIET STEPS MUSIC FOR VOICEOVER DONNA    I was pretty sure I'd seen movement down around the dimly lit corner.  I'm not usually the physical type - I leave all that to Paul-- PAUL    [distant] [laughing hysterically] DONNA    [grim and determined] --BUT I wanted to at least get a glimpse of whoever it was that was spying on Edwina's door.  MUSIC OUT SOUND    QUICK STEPS DONNA    Hah! SOUND    DOOR SHUTS QUICKLY MUSIC IN DONNA    I rushed up, but the series of locks - a strangely familiar series of locks - was already being thrown.  I waited a moment, then peered through the keyhole, straining for any glimpse of the perpetrator. GOLDY    What did you see? DONNA    Out! MUSIC OUT DONNA    Not you, her! MUSIC IN GOLDY    Fine.  PAUL    What did you see? DONNA    Let me talk to Edwina first. MUSIC OUT SOUND    TAP ON DOOR, DOOR WRENCHED OPEN EDWINA    What happened? DONNA    Nothing.  Thought I heard something. EDWINA    It was probably a mouse.  They're in half the apartments here. DONNA    Can't they get rid of them? EDWINA    [shrug] Not unless they get behind on the rent. MUSIC IN PAUL    Let me take this and give you ladies some privacy. DONNA    Sounds good.  I might be a little late. PAUL    No problem.  [voiceover]  I had had a frustrating day.  The moving company was paid in cash, and the apartment they were delivering to had been rented under a false name.  GOLDY    Back at the office, a pile of official looking papers that Donna had messengered, arrived.  If you're bored or anything. PAUL    I still have leads to follow up. GOLDY    I'm shutting up for the day.  You have fun. PAUL    [sigh]  Some days you wonder why you even need a secretary-- GOLDY    [distant] I heard that! PAUL    [thinking quick] And then you recall how much time you haveta spend away from the office, and it all becomes clear.  [waits a second]  Phew!  She does come in handy.  [narrating]  I walked into the bar where the lowest denizens of the city hung out, and lowest among them-- MUSIC OUT PAUL    Hey, Rump.  RUMPY    Not tonight, Bette.  I got lady trouble. PAUL    Really?  You? RUMPY    You don't have to sound so.... so... PAUL    Sorry. RUMPY    Take it from me, don't ever let one of them find out your real name.  [drinks deep]  So you here for a social call?  PAUL    You know better. SOUND    CLINK OF COINS ON COUNTER PAUL    But I can make it worth your while. RUMPY    I'll drink that in the next 10 minutes. PAUL    Give me something good, and you'll get another half hour's worth. RUMPY    What's the question? PAUL    Mr. Rexmussen and his daughter Edwina.  Anything you know. RUMPY    Off the top of my head?  And drunk?  Nothing.  SOUND    COINS BEING DRAGGED AWAY PAUL    Oh. RUMPY    Except-- SOUND    COINS STOP MOVING PAUL    Go on. RUMPY    I do know that just about a year ago, daddy dearest said he was gonna hitch her to the first dude to come to the door, and there was a virtual stampede to get there - but this mug Beard was already at the head of the line. PAUL    Like he... knew in advance? RUMPY    Could be...  or... [trails off suggestively, drinks] SOUND    TWO MORE COINS SET DOWN RUMPY    More like he kind of appeared out of nowhere.  No one knew him before.  No one knows when he came to town.  Nothing. PAUL    Hmm... SOUND    COUPLE MORE COINS RUMPY    That's all I got.  SOUND    SHOVES COINS RUMPY    Now leave me to my misery. PAUL    Nah.  Keep it.  MUSIC in PAUL    So a Beard with no roots.  But who could have known that Edwina's dad was going to go ballistic? GOLDY    Daddy probably set it all up with the mug.  To teach her a lesson.  Sounds like she was a holy terror. PAUL    I thought you went home. GOLDY     They ain't nothing good on the radio. PAUL    While I could consult an oracle or two about the mysterious Mr. Beard, the price would be a bit too high for a charity case-- GOLDY    What about who might want to kill her? PAUL    I had no leads as yet-- GOLDY    Oh, yes you do. PAUL    I do? GOLDY    These papers - I took em home, just in case someone might come looking. PAUL    Are you really worried about that? GOLDY    Nah.  But they ain't nothing good on the radio.  Anyway, you wanted to know about money motives, and there's some interesting stuff in here. PAUL    This should really be on the phone.  Voiceovers aren't made for conversations. GOLDY    You two do it all the time! PAUL    [abashed] We try not to. GOLDY    Fine.  [ahem] After going through the stack of papers - a thankless task, by the way - I realized that Edwina happened to have a birthday coming up. PAUL    [dismissive] She already mentioned that. GOLDY    AND that this would be her 22nd birthday.  When she would just happen to come into a huge trust fund.  UNLESS she weren't married yet, then she don't get her mitts on the cash til she's 30. PAUL    [interested] Really? GOLDY    UNLESS again - she was to happen to kick off before she made it to 22.  PAUL    Hmm...  Who-- GOLDY    IN WHICH CASE the money would revert to... ta-da!  her father. PAUL    Rexmussen?  But he's rich. GOLDY    Interesting, innit? DONNA    Whew.  I had just spent the longest evening of my life, and-- GOLDY    We're already on this line. DONNA    What? PAUL    But we're pretty much done. DONNA    What? GOLDY    Besides, I'm already clocked out for the evening. DONNA    [growl] what? PAUL    Goldy took the time to sort through all the paperwork we hadn't yet got around to... DONNA    [back to normal] Oh.  Anything? PAUL    Tell you at dinner. DONNA    About time! MUSIC OUT SOUND    RESTAURANT PAUL    --which doesn't make any sense, because he's rolling in dough. DONNA    Nothing in this case makes sense, and we've only got one more day before Edwina's birthday.  PAUL    We better stay with her.  DONNA    I had this little idea... PAUL    Yeah? DONNA    This mystery man appears every time she looks to be in danger, so... PAUL    ["getting it"] Mmm. DONNA    Let skip ahead. PAUL    Get some rest. DONNA    Mwa! PAUL    [appreciative growl] MUSIC IN DONNA    Morning came, and I was back with Edwina.  Her husband hadn't even come home, but had phoned to insist she still open the store as usual.  She was frantic. MUSIC OUT SOUND    STREET, FOOTSTEPS EDWINA    [controlled] Thank you so much for coming with me.  I'm simply frantic. DONNA    Don't worry about it.  We'll get to the bottom of all this. SOUND    RUSHING FEET PAUL    [roar] EDWINA    [scream!] SOUND    SCUFFLE BEARD    [oof!] DONNA    You got him?  Calm down, Eddie! EDWINA    [gasp] What?  Who is it?  Oh!  That's him!  That's the guy! PAUL    Let's get inside.  Come on.  EDWINA    [whisper] Who's that? DONNA    My partner.  He's good people. EDWINA    He's hardly "people", wouldn't you say? DONNA    Don't knock it, sister! SOUND    DOOR SHUTS PAUL    Okay, pal, you better start talking. EDWINA    Don't hurt him!  He's the one who's been saving me! PAUL    [tough sounding]  No one needs to get hurt - but someone DOES need to talk. BEARD    [mutters something] PAUL    What's that? BEARD    [low whisper] Just you.  I'll talk to you.  Not the ladies. PAUL    You all right with that?  We'll catch up. SOUND    SNAP FINGERS MUSIC In SUDDENLY DONNA    Edwina and I went on to the shop, careful to avoid any potentially life threatening situations. MUSIC OUT SOUND    SHOP DOOR, WITH BELL EDWINA    He's not going to hurt him, is he? DONNA    I don't think it will come to that. EDWINA    Good.  I-- I think I'm in love. DONNA    [stunned] What?  With that-- EDWINA    Handsome stranger who keeps saving my life? DONNA    You've got a point.  But what about your husband? EDWINA    I hardly ever see him.  He doesn't care. DONNA    And how do you know this guy is handsome?  His face was all covered in that scarf. EDWINA    [deep excited breath]  Oh!  His piercing eyes!  So mysterious.  T think--  [almost something]  I think he's shy. DONNA    While it's nice to see some color in your cheeks again, I think we need to shelve this until we solve the death-related part of the mystery. EDWINA    [sigh] All right. DONNA    Last night, I asked about the suitors you turned down.  Did you have a chance to make a list? EDWINA    Oh!  I forgot.  So sorry. DONNA    We've got some time now. EDWINA    Oh, all right. Um... There was Bob Porthos-- DONNA    The entrepreneur?  [whistles] EDWINA    He was really fat.  And Fred Crotchety, are you taking these down? DONNA    Mind like a steel trap.  Crotchety? EWINA    Old.  And don't even get me started on King Cole. DONNA    The Merry old - ah! "Old"? EDWINA    [duh!] Pattycake. DONNA    Hmm.  Let me guess, there was something wrong with every single one of them. EDWINA    Pretty much.  And if it wasn't something obvious, like being really short, or having terrible halitosis, I'd just pick on whatever was handy. DONNA    Bet you regret that now. EDWINA    You said it.  I might have spent the last year in the lap of luxury with my old, fat or smelly husband.  [thinks]  Hmm.  I guess I'm actually rather lucky. DONNA    Really? EDWINA    My husband is standoffish and emotionally unavailable, but at least he's not fat, old or smelly. DONNA    [slightly sarcastic] And doesn't talk in rhyme. EDWINA    [the horror!] Heaven forbid!!  SOUND    DOOR SLAMS OPEN DONNA    Paul? THUG    Both of you, hands up! EDWINA    [scream!] THUG    Shut up! EDWINA    [cuts out suddenly with a hiccup] DONNA    Let me guess - you're the next "accident"? THUG    Shut up! DONNA    Why should I listen to you? EDWINA    [hissed] Because he's got a gun! THUG    I see she's the smart one. DONNA    What? THUG    Though you got the looks, babe. DONNA    What? EDWINA    Don't anger the thug! DONNA    Just watch.  WHAT? THUG    Now, lets see...  [muses] an accident... SOUND    HEAVY TIPPING NOISE, CROCKERY GOES EVERYWHERE EDWINA    [quick shriek, muffled] THUG    [telling himself a story] So someone broke in, and-- [sudden surprised gasp of pain] MUSIC IN PAUL    The mystery man had only half satisfied my curiosity when we heard screams from the vicinity of Edwina's pottery shop. THUG    [screams like a girl] MUSIC OUT BEARD    Something's happening! PAUL    [chuckles] They'll be fine.  Finish what you were saying. BEARD    [melodramatic] I'll tell you whatever you want - AFTER we save her! PAUL    [sigh] All right. MUSIC IN PAUL    He had it so bad it was almost cute.  How could I refuse, being a fellow sufferer of that aeons-old disease called love? MUSIC OUT SOUND    DOOR CREAKS OPEN, CRASH OF PLATE DONNA    Hah! PAUL    See? BEARD    [surprised] Oh.  You're all right! EDWINA    Yes! DONNA    This guy-- SOUND    RUSTLE AS SHE KICKS HIM THUG    [groan] DONNA    Broke in.  He won't talk.  [sweetly] I told him my partner is the really scary one. PAUL    Don't worry about it.  I think I know where this is all leading. DONNA    Really? PAUL    Yes.  Shh. EDWINA    [melodramatic, to Beard] It can never be. BEARD    What? EDWINA    I'm... I'm married.  No matter that it wasn't my choice.  It-- BEARD    It's all right. EDWINA    No, it's not!  You keep saving me, and making me love - uh - like - uh - appreciate you.  It's not fair.  To you. BEARD    You wouldn't consider... running off with me? EDWINA    A year ago, I might have said yes.  In a heartbeat.  But I'm not that same shallow girl any more.  I simply can't break a solemn vow.  You should go. DONNA    [sad] Ohhh! PAUL    [reassuring] Shh. EDWINA    Just know this.  I love you! BEARD    I've waited so long to hear you say that. EDWINA    [confused] You ...have? PAUL    [whispered] Now for the big reveal. SOUND    RUSTLE OF FABRIC EDWINA    You! DONNA    Who? PAUL    Guess. DONNA    I don't know anyone with a beard that thick. BEARD    I'm so sorry I had to do it this way, but-- SOUND    THUMP, HISS PAUL    Really?  A grenade?  [grunt of effort] SOUND    HISSING FLIES OFF SOUND    DISTANT EXPLOSION, SHRIEK OF PAIN & SURPRISE PAUL    Now that that's sorted out, I think it's time. DONNA    Time? PAUL    For the big denouement.  And... I think a police presence is in order. DONNA    Where's a phone? EDWINA    What's going on?  BEARD    Don't worry, my darling.  I'll still always protect you. MUSIC IN PAUL    We did a quick gathering of the suspects and arrived at Mr. Rexmussen's sumptuous estates with only half an hour to spare. DONNA    Before what? PAUL    The birthday. GOLDY    I'm the one that caught that! DONNA AND PAUL    Shut up! GOLDY    Hmph.  Keep me posted. PAUL    Rexmussen's estate was a sprawling mass of putting green and ornamental garden, all surrounding a palatial sort of ... palace. DONNA    Evocative. PAUL    I've been studying Old Possum's word a day column in the Times. DONNA    [chuckles] GOLDY    uh-uh-uh!  Conversation! DONNA    Fine!  SOUND    MUSIC OUT SOUND    KNOCKING ON DOOR SOUND    TEENSY WINDOW OPENS BUTLER    Please good folks!  This is not right!  Banging on the door all night! PAUL    [grr] Pattycakes. EDWINA    [Imperious]  Rouse my father, Frederick. BUTLER    The master sleeps, he will not wake.  I beg you now, your leave to take. SOUND    WINDOW SHUTS DONNA    Blast.  If only-- SOUND    POLICE SIRENS BURP, THEN CUT OUT PAUL    [concerned] Ohhh boy. DONNA    Captain Oftheguard!  So glad you came!  Wait - I didn't - did you? PAUL    [grrrr]  No. OFTHEGUARD    Your secretary called, said you're having some kind of ...denouement... at this here address? PAUL    [muttered] She'll never let us live this one down. DONNA    [wheedling] We need to get inside, Bruce, and talk to Edwina's father!  Right now, before there's a murder! OFTHEGUARD    We'll see about that. SOUND    OFFICIAL POUNDING BEARD    No one's going to murder you! EDWINA    Oh, [falters] OH!  [whispers]  You never told me your first name. BEARD    Oh...  uh...  [horrible admission] Van dyke. EDWINA    Really?  I would have pegged you as a garibaldi, or maybe a franz-josef with a side order of Z-Z. BEARD    [surprised] So you know my brothers? SOUND    DOOR OPENS OFTHEGUARD    Hey!  Mother goose.  Get your boss out here.  This is the police. FREDERICK    You needn't speak in such a tone.  My job is to see he's left alone. OFTHEGUARD    hmph.  My job trumps your boss's orders - now let us through your fancy borders. DONNA    Oh, Bruce!  I never knew you were bilingual! PAUL    [growl] Enough!  I'll get us in. SOUND    MUSIC IN PAUL    It wasn't long before we were all sitting in Rexmussen's main sitting room. MUSIC OUT PAUL    So there. EDWINA    Not to be confused with the informal withdrawing room, or the salon. REXMUSSEN    [cold] So nice to have you home again dear. EDWINA    [cold] Papa.  [kiss kiss] OFTHEGUARD    I believe there was a denouement in the offing?  Or are we here for pinochle? REXMUSSUN    A Denouement?  Surely you don't mean--? SOUND    LIGHT FEET ENTER MULVA    [sexy little number] Rex, Honey?  I miss my bunny? EDWINA    [horrified] Papa! REXMUSSUN     [covering, stiff] Go back to bed, Mulva.  We'll talk in the morning. EDWINA    Papa!?  What is ... that?  [disgust] Her? DONNA    That's a whole nother denouement!  Quick, music! SOUND    MUSIC IN, SOUND OF EDWINA AND REXMUSSUN ARGUING UNDER REXMUSSUN    I knew you would never be able to accept-- EDWINA    A pattycake?  Father!  How could you! MULVA    Love is blind to age or youth.  We knew you wouldn't like the truth. REXMUSSUN    You don't need to be here, dearest, to take this abuse. EDWINA    I'm glad mother's dead!  This sort of ...perversion - it would have killed her to know. [now the voiceover] PAUL    Could this have been another motive?  Or part of the answer we already had? DONNA    We knew we had to sort it out quickly, or lose what might be our only chance to resolve this issue. PAUL    The money in the trust goes back to dear old dad if she dies in the next 15 minutes, right? DONNA    I think-- GOLDY    [snide] That's what the papers said.  DONNA    Fine.  Thanx.  What else did they say. GOLDY    Oh, so now you need me-- PAUL    Get on with it!  We're in the denouement! GOLDY    Dad's loaded.  The entire trust wouldn't make pocket change for him. DONNA    And his new wife? GOLDY    Oh, that took a couple of very tricky phone calls.  Seems they went out of state for a nice quiet little ceremony - the day AFTER dear daughter was whisked away to be wed. PAUL    So maybe this had nothing to do with the money at all? DONNA    What are we left with? EVERYONE     GASPS PAUL    That sounds like something.  Quick! SOUND    MUSIC OUT EDWINA    The lights! OFTHEGUARD    Everyone stay where you are.  BEARD    I'm here. SOUND    RUSTLE, THEN FOOTSTEPS PAUL    Was anyone near the lights when they went out? EDWINA    We were a bit...um... involved in a family ... discussion. DONNA    Where are the -- SOUND    GUNSHOT EDWINA    [QUICK scream] BEARD    Oh no! DONNA    Quick!  Paul! SOUND    HEAVY FOOTSTEPS PAUL    [growl] FREDERICK    Off, you beast!  Get off of me!  I'm no prey for such as thee! PAUL    Just for that! [unh!] SOUND    SMACK SOUND    CLICK OF LIGHTS BACK ON OFTHEGUARD    Him!? EDWINA    A servant? REXMUSSUN    Frederick? DONNA    [whispered] Paul?  But why?  Do you think he was paid? PAUL    [muttered] Hmm.  No.  [up]  Oftheguard, I'll hand him over.  OFTHEGUARD    What's the charge?  Or at least the motive? EDWINA    Yes!  What could he possibly get out of killing me?  He's not in any position to inherit. DONNA    No one is - now.  PAUL    Except your husband.  BEARD    I've got plenty of my own, thanks. DONNA    Your birthday came and went 8 minutes ago.  So this attempt ... [quizzical] must be unrelated? PAUL    But something else is.  DONNA    Is what? PAUL    Related.  [sharp] Rexmusson!  This young lady may be your second wife, but I wager she's not the first pattycake that you've... um... DONNA    Played pattycake with? PAUL    I was trying for something a bit more pithy, but yes. REXMUSSON    [warning] I'm a very wealthy and powerful man!  [shrug] And everyone needs a hobby. EDWINA    Papa! MULVA    But now I am your one and only?  You'll never have to be so lonely. REXMUSSON    [not quite convincing] Of course, dear. EDWINA    This is just disgusting.  I don't need to hear any more of this-- PAUL    Just a bit more.  Frederick?  How long have you worked here? EDWINA    He's been here his entire life.  Since we both [getting it] were children... DONNA    Ahhh.  And his mother?  She worked here, too? EDWINA    [revolted] Oh, now I am definitely leaving. BEARD    Hold on a bit longer.  EDWINA    Hold me! DONNA    So you think that he did it out of revenge?  For her being the pampered one and him getting.... a menial job? PAUL    Perhaps he felt that if there were no longer a legitimate heir to the Rexmusson estate, that his father would have to acknowledge him at last. DONNA    That's a huge bucket full of wishful thinking, you do realize that? REXMUSSON    Even if Edwina was killed, and that would never be my wish, dear, even if we don't see eye to eye on some things-- EDWINA    [conciliatory]  Oh, I should hope not. REXMUSSON    There's still going to be more legit heirs.  Right my little pumpkiny-wumpkiny? MULVA    You'll have a little sister soon.  We've counted down to the end of June. EDWINA    [no longer amused] We're leaving.  Now. BEARD    There's no more danger? OFTHEGUARD    Not from this guy, there ain't. BEARD    Good.  [leaving]  Edwina?  Darling? FREDERICK    Ouch!  Ouch!  Stop that, you!  You hurt my-- OFTHEGUARD    [cutting in] Everloving shoe.  I know, I know.  I've heard it all before.  Now - "Come along quiet, you epic fail.  You're taking a little trip to jail." MUSIC IN PAUL    [snort, then annoyed]  Progressive AND bilingual.  How do you compete with that? DONNA    Hmm? PAUL    Nothing.  [clears throat]  So the case was closed, and for once we could say-- DONNA    With a completely straight face-- PAUL    uh...  [whispered] You want to say it? DONNA    [sultry whisper] Let's do it together? PAUL    [grrrrow!]  Count of three, then.  One Two-- PAUL AND DONNA    The butler did it.  [both laugh] PAUL    You would never leave me, um, I mean the agency, I mean, detective work, for a ... a pattycake, wouldja? DONNA    Never fear, oh hairy one / the job, and you, are much more fun. PAUL    [growl!!]  I do love it when she talks foreign!    

Paul's new book, The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning ... Why do we get pleasure from some kinds of suffering? ... The many forms of self-flagellation ... Paul: I don't think we pursue the good only because it gives us pleasure ... How do we derive meaning from suffering? ... Paul: You cannot have a meaningful life without suffering ... Does Buddhist meditation risk severing us from important relationships with others? ... Is parenting pleasurable? ... Making progress on the hedonic treadmill ...

Paul's new book, The Sweet Spot: The Pleasures of Suffering and the Search for Meaning ... Why do we get pleasure from some kinds of suffering? ... The many forms of self-flagellation ... Paul: I don't think we pursue the good only because it gives us pleasure ... How do we derive meaning from suffering? ... Paul: You cannot have a meaningful life without suffering ... Does Buddhist meditation risk severing us from important relationships with others? ... Is parenting pleasurable? ... Making progress on the hedonic treadmill ...

Today on the Zeoli Show, kids are not born racist, they have to be carefully taught it. Teaching something as “anti-racist” creates the opposite effect and only hurts the growth of our society. Let kids be kids, they can't be racist if they aren't taught it. Also, Senator Rand Paul slams Dr. Fauci with questions surrounding his organization's, the NIH, funding of gain of function research and Jeff Bezos has some interesting solutions to climate change involving space. 6:05-NEWS 6:10-Philadelphia named one of 2021's best places to visit by Time Magazine.  6:15-COVID will always be here 6:25-China's struggle with an effective vaccine.  6:35-Biden administration says they're "reviewing" section 230 for social media companies.  6:50-Post-Labor Day the return to the office?  7:05-NEWS 7:10-Record label CEO of Aaron Lewis' latest single slams critics who want Lewis canceled for patriotic song  7:30--Senator Bernie's budget plan is a whopping $5 TRILLION  7:35-Senator Rand Paul gets into a heated argument over gain of function research with Dr. Fauci. 7:45-What's on the cut sheet 7:48-Dr. Facui to Senator Paul: "You don't know what you're talking about."  ​8:05-Should gain of function research ever happen again?  8:15-COVID cases soar in areas of illegal immigration  8:20-Jeff Bezos thanks every Amazon employee and shopper for funding his trip to space 8:25-NEWS 8:40-President Biden's unscripted remarks are starting to hurt him  8:50-Philadelphia food trucks struggling with business as companies don't return to the office.  9:00-Darpana Sheth, Vice President of Litigation at FIRE, joined discussing the petition to the Supreme Court on the Biden Administration attempting to limit college students rights without due process.  9:10-AOC wants students to learn how to be "anti-racist" through critical race theory.  9:13-NEWS 9:25-White Educators in schools asked to take "anti-racist" course to continue educating  9:35-Black Widow falters at the box office, is it Disney's fault?  9:40-Jeff Bezos wants to take all of Earth's pollution to space 9:55-Who Won Twitter See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How to Find Ideal Clients With Paul Kennedy  We all have clients. Sometimes we have great ones, and we call them our ideal clients. Other times we have some of the bottom-of-the-barrel, less-than-ideal clients. It might be a bit noisy or a bit squeaky, and frustratingly, the squeaky wheel gets the grease a lot of the time. We've got Paul Kennedy from PGV Consulting, and we'll talk about how to find ideal clients and remove the terrible ones. Get more tips on how to find ideal clients at dorksdelivered.com.au How Do You Identify An Ideal Client How do you identify a bad client? Start With Your Why Paul: I'd like to start with the “Why” and focus on what we have previously discussed about Simon Sinek. I love what Simon Sinek is about, and most of your listeners will be familiar with him. Paul: If you find out your “Why”, your purpose, why you're doing what you're doing, it could be a mixture of both business aspirations and personal ones. Particularly if you're self-employed, it's good to blend the two because your personal life and your business life have to live in harmony with each other. Paul: If you focus on your “Why”, it gives you your passion as to why you're really doing this. For instance, I'm an accountant by qualification. That doesn't necessarily mean that I actually really want to do accounting, especially a few years down the track. My “Why” was not to be an accountant, and that kind of led me to where I am. Paul: Working out your “Why” makes the other questions—your “What”, “How”, “Where”, and “When” so much easier. It's like picking up the correct piece of the jigsaw first. Once you've done that, the rest of it follows much more easily. Paul: Most of us meet and start off by asking, "What are you doing?" In my case, I'd perhaps start telling you about accounting, but it's not where I really want to spend my time and perhaps not where other people want to spend theirs. Nirvana: Ideal Clients Seek You Out Paul: I've got a few beliefs. One of them is Nirvana. It is when you get your business to the point where your ideal clients are actually seeking you out. Paul: Once you've reached Nirvana, it means you're in a very privileged position. If somebody is looking for somebody in your field and they know what you can do and what you've done for others, they will come to you and it won't be all about price. It will actually be because they want Josh Lewis to look after their business, their IT. You change the relationship, and it becomes one where they actually want you. It's not an argument or discussion over price. Have a Business Plan Paul: I am also a great believer in a business plan. I think it's very unwise to start a business unless you have a plan. It doesn't mean you have to be fixated on it, but it gives you some sort of general direction to where you want your business and career to go. Once you've started on that journey, that will lead you to who your ideal clients are and what makes them ideal. How Do You Identify a Bad Client? Who is Your Ideal Client? Paul: Identify the criteria and the things that make up your ideal client—the people who value, respect, and actually act on your advice. Paul: A non-ideal client would be someone who neither respects, values, nor acts on your advice. They might still be paying you, but from your perspective, it would be very frustrating to give them your best advice but they do not actually act on it. Think About Your Criteria Paul: I encourage people to think through what are the criteria of your ideal clients. It is actually quite helpful to spend a bit of time identifying the traits of non-ideal clients.  Paul: I often encourage people to think of a situation they might have had where they won two clients, they're driving home, and they're pretty happy and excited. They're particularly excited about winning Client A. They're a bit lukewarm and cool about having Client B.  Paul: I encourage people to think through what were the traits of Client A that got you excited, and what were the traits of Client B that made you feel a bit cool about it (I've won them, but I'm not sure this is going to go the way I hope it does)? The more you can drill down on that, the more it will help you identify the clients you want and those you don't want. Should You Keep a Non-Ideal Client? If you've just started in business, the expenses are being covered, and there's food on the table, is it okay to stick with bad clients if removing them will mean that you're no longer financially healthy? Paul: We obviously need to be and want to be financially healthy. It perhaps comes down to timing as to how long you might bite your tongue and continue working with somebody who's not an ideal client. How do you deal with a non-ideal client? Think About Increasing the Price Paul: All of us in business invariably have some clients that we perhaps don't want. You can have a very direct conversation and say, 'Look, perhaps I'm not the best person for you.' We could do it by increasing your price to be unattractive to people who are not ideal clients. That's something that we've learnt, so we changed around our business model from charging per hour to charging a flat rate per month.  In 2009, we're charging $55 or $85 an hour. In 2010, we changed the business model around to per month. One of our clients didn't want to pay per month. I told them that with the number of hours they're doing with us, they're going to be saving money in three months on average.  But they were not interested, so I went from $85 to $110 to $150 to $200 an hour before they agreed to go per month. We were making heaps less money, but they were fitting in with the model and how we wanted our business to work. And they were happier with that because then it was back to less than what they were originally paying, so it worked out for everyone. Paul: If you really don't believe that this is the sort of business you want to be working with a particular client, increasing your price so that you're unattractive is one way of doing it. Be Upfront Paul: It's not a bad idea to be even a bit more upfront and simply say, 'I don't think I'm the right person for you.'  You were talking about different ways to terminate a contract with a client. We've done this before as well. We've noticed that the businesses that we're working with are getting bigger and bigger. One of them was going in a different direction and was more interested in running a home network for the 40 employees as opposed to a business network. We said that's not really what we do and we're more than happy to put you in contact with someone that works with businesses that have the same ethos. We found that was a professional way to break into that closing doors should situations change. Is there any way you shouldn't terminate a contract?  Paul: I do it as pleasantly as possible. I think that we need to be honest, not everybody is going to work with everybody. Otherwise, you'd end up marrying everybody. Paul: You can't be everything to everybody. You shouldn't try to be. If you do, you'd probably come to grief and a bit unstuck. Be Innovative Paul: I have a client with whom I've done quite a bit of work over the years. My role was to identify people that I knew that represented his or his company's ideal client criteria and to introduce the two. They would host a high-quality event, and I would invite these people along and learn a bit about each other. One thing would lead to another and invariably business. Paul: In doing so, I was introducing my client to his prospective client, who loved what my client did, but because they were spread across Australia, it was just going to be prohibitive. Paul: After I've done my initial introduction, my client and the prospective client sat down and talked it through. The latter said that they love what my client does—bringing our senior management together for a day and a half once a month for 10 months—but the cost is much more than they are prepared to pay and bringing together the senior management from across Australia once a month is really overwhelming for us. Paul: This happened 5 years ago, so I was a bit surprised that my client hadn't thought of doing it by Zoom. Five years later, they are still doing business. The client is delighted. They've achieved it at a much lower rate, and they've managed to do it without disrupting their business every month when they bring a group of senior executives together.  Paul: It's often not what you do. With my client, all they really changed was how they did it. I can't really take the credit, but my client said that I have changed the criteria of their ideal client. They see themselves delivering what they do—business coaching—to a much larger audience than what they previously have perceived. I'm a great believer in knowing who your ideal clients are, who you would like them to be, and who they could be.  Look At the Good Side of Things Paul: I think with COVID-19 essentially everybody has recognised that we can do so much. What we were previously doing physically at one location we can actually do via Zoom. COVID-19 has actually accelerated much of the change that was going on. In business, being able to do things through Zoom is awesome. It's not about the lack of resources; it's more about being resourceful with what you've got. That's a big thing that we bring to businesses. People don't want to use the XYZ tool and aren't ready for that. Most of the time, when you push into a corner like what COVID-19 did for a lot of businesses, you find out that these tools aren't that bad. They're not the enemy, and they're going to help you out. They're going to take you off the road, and you're going to be significantly more utilised throughout the day. Some people drive. I have a friend that drives an hour and 40 minutes to work every morning, five days a week. It's ridiculous. When his business went into COVID lockdown, he found that he had more time for his family. He spent an extra 40 minutes with his family in the morning and an extra 40 minutes in the afternoon, and they were happy but he was still spending an extra 2 hours a day at work. It's definitely a blessing in disguise.  Paul: Personally, I'm not particularly good around the technology side, but you obviously have taken to it like a duck to water. I think that's a wonderful gift. Paul: Technology is your friend, and I'm learning that myself and enjoying working with people who have that outlook and have that ability, which I very much respect.  It should sit there like electricity is your friend. We don't need to know how it works. We don't need to know if it's AC or DC coming through on high voltage lines. It just matters that we need to flip the switch and it works, and that should be what all business owners want. Ensure Your Ideal Clients Know Who to Call (You) Paul: If you turn the switch on and it doesn't work, even though you might not know how it works, you at least know who to call. Henry Ford said that he doesn't have to know everything. He just has to know who to contact to make sure that he can achieve everything. Paul: That's very much what I'm about. I believe in the business plan and in knowing your ideal client and who they are. Make Your Ideal Clients Remember You Paul: What I do is I work with my client in identifying a number of activities. They could be one-on-one introductions, giving presentations, writing articles, whatever's right for my client so that we are constantly getting them in front of their ideal clients. Paul: I think some people go way over the top. They're excellent at what they do, but I think they significantly overcommunicate to the point where their target market is annoyed and say, 'If I get another email from Paul:  Kennedy, I'll scream.' You don't want to do that. Paul: On the other hand, you don't want to go to the other extreme where your target market says, 'I've got an email from this guy Paul:  Kennedy, and I don't think I even know him.' You've got to be just right. It'll be different for every business, but you have to make sure that when your ideal client has a need, you are the one they think of and they know how to contact you.  Build a Business Development and Marketing Calendar Paul: Identify those five to eight activities and then build a marketing and business development calendar that bullet points down which activities you are going to do each month. They are all different because there is no single silver bullet. I don't believe you could do it all via LinkedIn or do it all via one-on-one introduction. You need to be doing a variety of activities that are getting you in front of these ideal clients and you need to do it consistently, not just once. Paul: Get yourself to the point where you've built your brand amongst your target markets or your ideal clients so that when the time is right for them, not when the time is right for you, they keep thinking, 'I need to go and talk to Josh at Dorks Delivered.' I agree. We call it the digital fridge magnet. When you look at the plumber or the nice pizza place around the corner, if you don't have that on the fridge and you forget, a lot of the time you end up going somewhere else. You want to be in front of them enough but you're not annoying them and pestering them. Paul: Absolutely. I've got an excellent database of people I know and who know me. Some of the people are so good at their social media, but personally, I think they do too much of it to the point where I have it set up so that it's automatically put into a subfolder in their name because I respect what they do, but I physically cannot consume everything that they're churning out. It could be one video a day and I just physically don't have that time. Paul: I think so much of that good content that they're sending out goes to waste. In my case, it goes automatically into the subfolders. Sometimes I get to look at it, most of the time not. These people are so good at what they do, but it's actually going to waste. Paul: On the other hand, you have the extreme of people who don't communicate at all. I think finding that right balance somewhere in the middle so that you're there enough, but not to the point where you are an annoyance, is the way to go. How Do You Avoid Losing a Prospective Client?  Do you think you can get too close to an ideal client and break the relationship? Do you think you can do things that are too friendly and they think that's weird? What situations could get you too close? What are the Don'ts to make sure that you don't destroy a relationship with an ideal client? Remain Professional at All Times Paul: I do think you must at all times remain professional. You don't want to get to the point where the relationship has become casual and taken for granted. If there is an issue, either party might get reluctant to raise it because of the closeness so it festers away. Equally, if you do get too close or your relationship has become too entrenched with that one individual in the company, what happens if that person moves on and he's no longer there?  Paul: It's a fine line. On one hand, you obviously want the relationship to be a healthy one, a productive one that works cooperatively for all parties. It's important to make sure that it always remains professional, but you don't take each other for granted and that you deliver what you say you are going to deliver. Don't get to the point where you're essentially living in each other's pockets. I think there is a dividing line and it's important to keep that. I know one time that I felt a bit uncomfortable. We don't work with this company anymore. We were quite close to them, and they would have parties and I'd bring along a keg of beer to celebrate. There was this one Christmas party in particular. I was there with a keg of beer and then a few hours went by, they shut the gates. I thought that's a bit weird, and then a few of the key decision-makers in the business started smoking a joint. They offered me to join them, but I'm not that guy. I said no judgement, but I obviously did. They felt comfortable enough to do that in front of me, but I did not feel comfortable being around that. Paul: I think that's an example of where getting too close can cause a bit of grief and can actually ruin the relationship. Planning, Growth, and Value Tell us about PGV Consulting and how that works with businesses that are listening and how they can leverage your services to be able to help them find ideal clients. Paul: I'm an accountant by qualification, but I don't do any accounting. I just wasn't very good. In the last 25 years, I've been really about business planning, business development, connections, and introductions. Paul: PGV stands for planning, growth, and value. Planning Paul: I like to begin with the business plan. Otherwise, it's a bit like going and trying to put a house on a roof before you've put the foundations down. I see the business plan as being the foundation, and it's important that you do that. As part of that process, you go through all the normal things like mission, vision, strengths, SWOT analysis and so on, but I really like to drill down on ideal clients and equally non-ideal clients. Growth Paul: If you've reached Nirvana, your ideal clients seek you out, sadly, non-ideal clients will also seek you out. When that happens, it's always good to know your competitors. Refer your non-ideal clients to them. Anything that can slow a competitor down is possibly a good thing. Paul: Work out what activities are going to engage you with those ideal clients on a consistent and ongoing basis so that they get to know you and particularly what you can do for them.  Paul: People can engage my time by booking me for a certain number of hours per month where I work with them initially on the plan, if they don't have one, and then actually implementing the plan and particularly getting them in front of their ideal clients: people I know and who know me. Value Paul: I have a wonderful database that's very up to date and very comprehensive. I go through that when I'm working with a client in my database to see who I know that meets my client's ideal client criteria. And then we set about a series of activities, such as one-on-one introductions and presentations, so that one gets to learn the story of the other and see if they can do business together. I think that's very valuable to any business. I guess a lot of people out there claim to do similar things, but I think what's big and promising is you've got a client base where people can hit the ground running. You know these people, and being able to find the right person that fits your business means that it can be a few hours that you're spending with them and they might be coming out on the other side with maybe not a client, but at least an introduction to an ideal client. Paul: A person or an organisation might not necessarily be an ideal client themselves, but they may know your ideal client and be able to introduce you or where you work in partnership, alliances, etc. I'm also a great believer in that so long as it works for all the parties involved. You don't really want to be doing work with people who are frustrating, not ideal, can't pay your bill, don't actually act on your advice. Paul: Do anything you can do to avoid that so that you're always working in your circle of people who do actually value what you're about and actually act on it and are able and willing to pay for your services. 'How to Find the Ideal Clients' by Paul Kennedy Paul: I wrote an article some time ago called 'How to Find the Ideal Clients.' If it's of interest to any of your listeners, I'm very happy for them to have a copy. It was published in Spark Magazine about 4 years ago. [insert link to article] Paul: Also, with the new financial year, I think it's the perfect time to sit down and revisit your business plan if you have one or build one if you don't. Identify who your ideal clients are, work out what those actions and activities are going to be that you will progressively unfold over the next 12 to 18 months, and consistently deliver it and get your story in front of those people you want to have as your clients. I'm sure you'll find that your business grows the way you want it to. I love going back to the business plans that I've done in the past, and I can look through some of the stupid ideas I had and some of the amazing things that I've been able to accomplish to sort of put things into perspective. Sometimes we are too busy running the rat race to realise how far we've run. Recommended Book: Start With Why by Simon Sinek Paul: I think that really takes you back to where we began: Start with “Why”. As you go home every night, you're pretty excited and pleased about it because you've actually helped the sort of people you want to be doing business with. You can see the difference that you're bringing about in their business, and that's the motivation to get up the following day and go back and do it again. You took the words out of my mouth. I was about to ask about your favourite book, but I think you've answered that question perfectly. Start With Why [italicize] is definitely up there if it's not your favourite. Start with your “Why”. The big thing for me is to try to remove your business from it. That's what I did. Look at why you do what you do outside of the business. What is the driving motivators for you? What would you do for free? If you were retired, where would you stand and how would your day look? If your business fits into that, awesome. If it doesn't, make it fit into that. What is Freedom to You? What is business built freedom to you? What would you say is the vehicle of business and how does that bring freedom to you? Paul: It's spending your time doing what you want to do, enjoying it and seeing the rewards. That kind of almost defines your “Why” for each of us, doesn't it? It will be different for everybody, but business freedom is getting your business to the point where you want it to be and where your ideal clients are actually coming to you and that you can see that you've created that.  Paul: I can see that you're getting your business to that point where the sort of people you want are approaching you. And at the end of each day, you've built your business so that it's delivering the outcome that you want.  If you have any feedback or any questions, feel free to jump across iTunes. Leave us some love, give us some feedback. Paul will be in our Facebook group where you can ask different questions. Stay good and stay healthy.

Pr. Nick preached out of 2 Timothy 3:10-17 on the importance of continually walking with God and growing deeper in your relationship with God. Here is a picture of what God has given us to navigate through life… Just as Timothy followed Paul… …You follow His Teaching …You follow His Conduct and my Aim …You follow His Faith You're going to find yourself at intersections in life… and your going to need to trust that the work that God has done in your life will continue as you continue in Him Your not done… your just getting started for your purpose and God’s plan is for you to walk with Him Connect with us online… www.facebook.com/Emmaus.Church www.instagram.com/emmaus_aflc/ www.twitter.com/Emmaus_AFLC Fill out our virtual Connection Card: https://emmauslutheran.churchcenter.com/people/forms/152121 We would love to prayer with/for you today! https://www.emmauslutheran.org/prayer

We deal with a lot of stress every day. From balancing our responsibilities to merely reading the news, stress is an inevitable part of life. But contrary to popular belief, stress isn’t always the enemy. A healthy amount of stress allows us to grow more resilient to tougher conditions. Too much stress, however, can lead to the downfall of our well-being. Especially during these exceedingly stressful times, we need to manage our stress levels and build resilience.  In this episode, Paul Taylor joins us to share how we can better respond to stress and build resilience. He explains how too much stress can damage the body and the role of genetic predispositions in our health. Paul also gives us tips on training yourself to handle stress better. Finally, we talk about reframing negative self-talk and forming good habits. If you want to learn more about how to build resilience and handle stress better, then tune in to this episode.     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year’s time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa’s Anti-ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, a NAD+ precursor   Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time.   What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that is capable of boosting the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements that are of highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today.   Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful, third party tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules   Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combat the effects of aging, while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility   Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce’ Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Train yourself to build resilience and handle stressful situations better.  Discover ways to deal with negative thoughts. Learn Paul’s tips on creating good habits.   Resources Pushing the Limits Episode 183 - Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranov‪a‬ You can also watch Episode 183 on YouTube Watch my interview with Dr Seranova on The Interplay Between Autophagy and NAD Biology.  Learn more about NMN supplements on NMN Bio.  Stopping Automatic Negative Thoughts   Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankl   Connect with Paul: Website | LinkedIn The MindBodyBrain Project with Paul Taylor The Better You Program by Paul Taylor   Episode Highlights [05:13] About Paul’s PhD in Resilience Paul is studying psychophysiological resilience.  Gratitude, empathy and mindfulness are necessary. But they are not sufficient factors in  studying resilience.  Paul is looking at the interaction between resilience, mental well-being and burnout in military guys.  Paul is developing a new measure of resilience. It uses self-reports, cognitive batteries and biological measures. [07:57] What Stress Does to Your Brain Consistent exposure to stress changes the brain, both structurally and functionally.  These changes make people less able to control their emotional responses.  People suffering from anxiety, depression, PTSD or burnout were found to have significant maladaptive changes in their brains. [17:38] Daily Stressors That Damage Us Aside from life traumas, the smaller daily stressors can also be damaging for us.  Paul believes that modern life is characterised by input overload that puts us in a constant state of stress. Our resilience and responsiveness to stress depend on factors such as genetics, social support and nutrition. Listen to the full episode to learn more about how nature and nurture inform how stress is processed in the brain. [22:40] Training Yourself to Build Resilience The Goldilocks Effect proposes that for optimal performance, stress levels must be just right. Specific training and repetition can help people arrive at an automated response regardless of their genetic predispositions. Learning arousal control strategies can make you act effectively under pressure. These strategies are also used routinely in training military, police or firefighters.  Breathing is one easy arousal control strategy. Specifically, techniques like box breathing and resonant frequency breathing help manage stress.  Listen to the full episode to learn more about breathing techniques and the autonomic nervous system. [29:49] Using Attention in Stress Response Our attention tends to be internally focused if we’re anxious, depressed or stressed.  If you’re not in danger or no external threat, shifting your attention outward can help minimise your stress. You can shift your attention to your breathing or the things you can sense. Paul says that we all have an ‘inner gremlin’. It’s a character that is responsible for negative self-talk, anger, anxiety and depression. Instead of listening to it, you can shift your attention to the “inner sage” or the best version of yourself. This process of “self-distancing” has been found to reduce people’s emotional intensity. Listen to the full episode to find out how to create a character based on these figures. [35:58] Discharge, Recharge and Reframe When you’re feeling overwhelmingly anxious, first find a way to discharge your stress hormones.  Paul finds that even 30 seconds of intense activity helps in discharging.  Then you recharge by focusing on your breathing. Lastly, reframe your perception by thinking about what your best character would do. [40:44] Dealing with Automatic Negative Thoughts You are not your negative thoughts. You can choose not to listen to them. In Japanese psychology, our automatic negative thoughts are stories we tell ourselves. What matters is what story we pay attention to.   The concept of Hebbian learning suggests that every time you’re repeating a thought, you’re strengthening it.  Interrupt your maladaptive and unhelpful thought patterns and create new healthier ones.  Watch your thoughts with curiosity and remember that you have a choice over the ones you can focus on. [48:10] The Importance of Getting Outside Your Comfort Zone The small circle-big-circle analogy is used to describe comfort zones. The small circle is your comfort zone and the big circle is where growth and adaptation happens.  Since the Industrial Revolution, humans have stopped adapting to their environment. Paul thinks that learning how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable is key to growing stronger and building resilience.  However, you can’t go outside your comfort zone and push yourself too hard all the time. You also have to allow yourself to recover physically and mentally. [53:05] On Recovery Seeking comfort is done during recovery. Recovery isn’t the same as relaxation.  Recovery is doing stuff that energizes you. If you don’t take the time to recover, you’ll run the risk of burnout. Balancing recovery, proper nutrition, good sleep hygiene and high-intensity training drives stress adaptation. [1:01:52] How to Make Good Habits and Stick to Them As humans, we are more driven by immediate rewards. Temporal discounting is what happens when our brains ignore rewards that are far off in the future.  Temporal discounting gets in the way of making good habits and achieving our goals.  In making good habits, it is important to understand your values and connect your behaviours to those.  Breaking big goals into smaller and more manageable goals makes it easier to follow through them. Engaging in enabling behaviour also helps in priming your brain to make your habits.    7 Powerful Quotes from This Episode ‘And so this is what happens when people get burnout or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress in the case of trauma, or just complaints, daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery’. ‘So that resonant frequency breathing or box breathing can be really really useful and to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just, it's basically autonomic nervous system control through breathing’. ‘So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression or just have a busy mind, you know, they've got a lot of negative self talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and I say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention’. ‘I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner sage, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about, you know, that's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best or some sort of other character that I'm consulted’. ‘If you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen’. ‘You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right’? ‘And I find that there are a lot of high achievers who are at risk of burnout because they're just on, on, on. And not enough serotonin focused stuff, just contentment, relaxation, connection with others time in nature, all of that sort of stuff’.   About Paul Paul Taylor is a former British Royal Navy Aircrew Officer. Paul is also a Neuroscientist, Exercise Physiologist and Nutritionist. He is currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology. He is developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group & The University of Tasmania. In 2010 Paul created and co-hosted the Channel ONE HD TV series Body and Brain Overhaul. And in 2010 and 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. Paul also has an extensive background in health and fitness. Additionally, he has experience in leadership, management and dealing in high-pressure situations. His former roles include Airborne Anti-submarine Warfare Officer and a Helicopter Search-And-Rescue Crew Member with the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm. He has also undergone rigorous Combat Survival and Resistance-to-Interrogation Training. In 2012, he practised what he preaches about resilience training and became a professional boxer. Want to know more about Paul’s work? Visit his website or follow him on Linkedin.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends, so they can learn to build resilience. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone, and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. I’m your host, Lisa Tamati. Today I have the legend Paul Taylor. Now Paul is a former British Royal Navy air crew officer. He's also a neuroscientist and exercise physiologist and a nutritionist. And he's currently completing a PhD in Applied Psychology, where he's developing and testing resilience strategies with the Australian Defence Science Technology Group and the University of Tasmania. This guy is an overachiever. He's done a whole lot of stuff in his life. In 2010, Paul created and co-hosted the Channel One TV series Body & Brain Overhaul. And in 2015, he was voted Australian Fitness Industry presenter of the year. This guy has been there, done that, and you're going to really enjoy the conversation today—all around resilience. He has so much knowledge, and he is with us all today. So I hope you really enjoy this episode with Paul Taylor.  Now before we head over and talk to Paul, I just want to remind you, if you're wanting to check out our epigenetics, what we do with our gene testing program that we have, where you look at your genes, understand your genes and how to optimise your genes, and how they are being influenced by the environment and how to optimise your environment, then please head over to my website, lisatamati.com. Hit the Work with Us button. Then you'll see peak epigenetics, peak epigenetics and click that button and find out all about it. Every second week, we have a live webinar where we actually take you through what it's all about, what's involved and how it all works. So if you want to find out about that, just reach out to me. You can reach me at any time and the support@lisatamati.com. If you've got questions around in the episodes, if you want to know a little bit more about any other guests, or you want to find out about anything that we do, please reach out to us there.  I also want to let you know about the new anti-ageing and longevity supplement NMN that I'm importing. I had a couple of episodes with Dr. Elena Seranova, who's a molecular biologist who shares all the information about this incredible supplement and how it upregulates the sirtuin genes in the body and helps create more NAD. Lots of big words but very incredible. The information in those episodes is really incredible. And if you want to try out this longevity and anti-ageing supplement, have more energy, it helps with cardiovascular health, there's even some evidence now starting to looking into fertility. It works on a very deep level in the body and helps upregulate the sirtuin genes which are longevity genes, helps with DNA repair mitochondrial biogenesis, lots of really good stuff. You probably didn't catch all those words, but go and listen to those episodes.  The product is called Nicotinamide Mononucleotide. It’s fully natural, there’s no downside to this. Very safe to take and will slow the ageing process. If you want to find out a little bit more head on over to nmnbio.nz, that's nmnbio.nz. Right, enough for today. I'm going to send you right now over to Paul Taylor who's sitting in south of Melbourne. Lisa: Well, hi everybody, Lisa Tamati here at Pushing The Limits. Super excited to have you. I'm just jumping out of my skin for excitement because today I have the legendary, Paul Taylor with me. Paul, how are you doing? Paul Taylor: Hi, I'm bloody awesome. How the devil are you? Lisa: Very excited to meet you. Paul is sitting in south of Melbourne, he tells me, in Wine Country. Is that right? Paul: That's correct. Like any self-respecting Irishman, I moved to where they make the wine. Lisa: An Irishman who lives in Australia, who is ex-British Royal Navy e-crew, neuroscientist, nutritionist, exercise physiologist—a bit of an overachiever, Paul. Crikey, could you do a little bit more, please? You're not doing enough. Paul: Well, I’m currently doing a PhD in Applied Psychology, just to sort of finish it—round it all out. And I need to keep myself out of mischief. Lisa: Crikey. I feel very intimidated right now. But I am very excited to have you on the show. Because I have come across you from our mutual friend Craig Harper, he is awesome. And I've been listening to your lectures and your work and your learnings, and just going, ‘Wow, this guy puts everything into such a lovely way - with stories and good analogies’. And so, I wanted to share you with my world, over here with my audience. So today, I wanted to do a bit of a deep dive. But before we get into it, so you are doing a PhD in resilience. So, can you elaborate a little bit on the PhD you’re doing? Paul: Yeah, so what I'm looking at is psychophysiological resilience, because I'm just bloody sick to the back teeth, hearing that resilience is all about gratitude, empathy, and mindfulness. And that stuff, it's important. But as I say, it's necessary, but it's not sufficient. And there is a large component of resilience that has to be earned. And that's the sort of stuff that I realized from my time in the armed forces.So, the positive side stuck is important. But there is a lot more to it. And I actually wanted to explore it and do the research on it.  And I'm very lucky that one of my supervisors, Eugene, is the principal scientist at Defence Science Technology Group. So, they work a lot with the military. And I'm actually doing—I'm just finishing off my first study with the military. So, it's pretty cool for me, having left the British military 16 years ago. Now, I’m doing resilience interventions with the Australian military. Lisa: Wow, I mean, it just sounds absolutely amazing. What sort of things are you—because I agree, like, the gratitude and all that very, very important—but it is, you can't just decide. Like, positive thinking, ‘I'm going to be positive thinking’. It's like a little bit more complicated than that. We need to look at things at a deeper level. What is it that your PhD is actually researching? So, what is the study that you've just done, for example? Paul: Yeah, so the one that we're doing, we basically—it's a pilot study. So, what we call a proof of concept. So, taking a bunch of military guys, and they've gone through training, so I did a full day's workshop, 34 hours with the guys. And then they went on to my app, to be able to sort of track behaviours and log habits and interact with each other and put the tools to the test. And so they did—they've done a survey on mental well-being, another survey on resilience, and another survey on burnout. So I'm actually looking at the interaction between your resilience levels, your mental well-being and your burnout, or risk of burnout in the workplace.  And what I'm hoping to do in further research is to develop further the model or the measurement criteria of resilience. Because at the minute, in the literature, it's just measured through a questionnaire, and it's pretty poor, really. Lisa: Wow, yeah. Very subjective. Paul: Yes, it just gets very subjective. And it's also influenced by—if you're doing a resilient survey, it's influenced by who is actually going to see that right. So, if you're doing it for your employer, a lot of people will actually think, ‘Oh, I better not answer this in a certain way, because there may be ramifications’. So there are limitations with any self-reported questionnaire.  But more lately, there's been some biological measures of resilience that have come out of University of Newcastle, which I'm actually going to be working with that group. So, they've actually lived in something called an acoustic startle response, which is basically you'd be sitting with your headphones on, doing some sort of task. And every now and then there'd be this light noise going off in your headphones, and you'd be all wired up. And they'd look at your heart rate, your blood pressure, your galvanic skin response. And you see there's a spike from your autonomic nervous system, right?  And what they have actually shown is that people who have higher levels of resilience on these self-reported questionnaires, they actually—they acclimatized or they adapt quite quickly to that noise, whereas those who have got lower resilience or who maybe have PTSD or anxiety or depression, they don't habituate to it. So, they're still getting that response, right. So, and this is about what is actually going on in the brain, and particularly an area called the amygdala, that I'm sure we'll get into.  So, I'm looking at a sit back and develop a triangulated measure of resilience. We're taking that maybe acoustic startle and some of the self-reports stuff, and then performance on a cognitive battery when you're under pressure, right? So, trying to then get a triangulated measure or a new measure of resilience. That’s a very long winded—yeah, so we can measure it a bit more objectively. Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, because you're working with, like, in Special Forces, I think, in the military. So these are guys that are under immense pressure situations. And looking at our military and vets and stuff, and a lot of them come back with PTSD, and all sorts of mental health issues. And these guys that are coming into this are tough characters, these are not—and then they're coming out with problems. And even not in military, but just in things like my husband's a firefighter. The stuff that they get to see every day. Like he's a really strong, resilient, resourceful human being, but I'm seeing the load, the PTSD sort of load that's coming up over years and years and years are starting to have some bigger ramifications.  Do you see that people that are like super hardcore tough, amazing, but when they are going into these repeated situations and being because usually like exposure therapy is one of the things we do to lower our stress response. If you don't like spiders, and you have to hold a spider every five minutes, you're going to get used to holding a spider, and it no longer will cause a response. By the same token, are you seeing this going flip the other way? Where you're actually getting worse from exposure? Paul: Yeah, so there's a lot of academic research in this area, looking at not just PTSD, but also burnout. So, for me, there's that, there's a continuum of workplace burnout is linked in a way to post traumatic stress disorder, right? It's just that the exposure isn't as extreme. There's not that trauma, but it's the insidious, consistent exposure to stress that actually changes the brain. It changes the brain both structurally and functionally. So what I mean by that is what we're seeing in both PTSD and anxiety and depression, by the way, and workplace burnout, with the advent of brain scanners, they're able to take a bunch of people and follow them for a long period of time—six months, a year, two years. Ask them about their stress levels, and then look and see, does the brain change over time? And what they're actually seeing in that people who are suffering from burnout or anxiety or depression or PTSD, there are significant, as I said, structural and functional changes in the brain. So what I mean by that from a structural perspective, the amygdala, the part of the brain, one of its job is to sense and respond to stress, and it actually becomes bigger. And so there's  increased cells, increased connections and hypertrophy, it's just like your muscles with hypertrophy. And I'll come back to that in a second why this is, right. But in concert with that, areas of their prefrontal cortex, that rational planning judgment part of the brain, and also, another area called the anterior cingulate cortex—they're actually shrinking. There’s damage to those neurons and there's less activity in those areas. And what this means functionally, is it means it's a less-connected brain. And it means it's a brain that is less able to control emotional responses. So basically, the amygdala is starting to hijack the brain. The neuroscientist, Antonio Damasio, he's the first to show in his lab that with that repeated— if your amygdala becomes sufficiently activated, it can actually secrete chemicals to block your frontal lobes. Basically, it says, ‘Talk to the hand. I’m in control of this brain’. Right now we all know that as losing our shit, right? Things are hijacked. But when this is happening repeatedly, what's happening is that there are neuroplastic changes in the brain. Right? And we know that this even happens in unborn children, in fetuses, that if they're exposed to chronic stress in the third trimester, the amygdala will grow bigger and more sensitive. And if we think about it, it's an amazing adaptive response. Because it's basically, they're getting inputs through the placenta and stress hormones. If we're adults, we're getting input saying, ‘This is a dangerous word’. Right? Lisa: Got to be vigilant. Paul: Yeah, the brain is all about survival first, right? It's all about survival. So, and sometimes that adaptive response is maladaptive. Right? In that there are changes that no longer serve us, right? And so this is what happens with people get burnout, or anxiety, depression, PTSD, is that there are adaptive changes that turn maladaptive. And it's basically because the brain is being overwhelmed with stress, either way too much stress, in the case of trauma, or just bombardment. Daily bombardment with stress, and not enough recovery. And I know as a lead athlete, you know about the balance between stress and recovery and just dealing with what you’ve got. Lisa: Never got it right. Paul: And then you don’t, right? Lisa: Burnout was my best friend. Yeah, there's a huge—because I studied genetics, there’s a huge genetic component to this as well. Paul: There is, yeah. Lisa: When you're looking at how long your adrenal, your stress hormones, for example, stay in the body, your COMT gene, your—the RD2 gene, the RD2B gene. Once they actually get the adrenaline, is it going to stay here in the body very long? Or is it going to be out? And they call it like the warrior gene and the worrier. Paul: Worrier and warrior. When I say it, people go, ‘What’s the difference’? I go... Lisa: Warrior as in a Maori warrior, and the other one as in worrying, worrying yourself to death. And there’s a genetic predisposition. And then you couple that with environmental, being overwhelmed with either an event or a series of events, or like you say, the constant bombardment. Because there's a question in my head, like, you and I, there’s history, we've both been in some pretty freakin’ scary situations in life. And those are certain traumas that you've been through and you've carried. But then there is a daily shit that goes on.  Like something that I'm dealing with currently is like, I don't know, but the level of anxiety sometimes is like as high just because I feel like a computer with a million windows open. And it's got inputs coming up. And there's so many—you're trying not to drop the ball, and you're wearing so many hats on so many levels. So that's a different type of anxiety. And it's—and that one that like the big, major ones that you've been through, they sort of self-explanatory that you've got problems with those. But these little ones can be quite damaging too, daily on the mind. Paul: Absolutely. And I like your analogy about having a million windows open. And that's really modern life, is it's just input overload for a lot of people. And it's, even we know that reading the news a lot, and the negativity particularly around COVID is just bad juju, right? Particularly if you are predisposed, or you have underlying anxiety. Then we've got kids, we got that juggle, we got kids and parents, right? And we got work stresses, we got money worries, we got relationship issues. These are all things that our ancestors didn't really have to deal with. Right?  And our stress response system has evolved over the last 2 million years in our ancestors in response to certain challenges. Right, so three minutes of screaming terror on the African savanna when you're being chased by a lion—that's your fight or flight mechanism. And then longer term or really traumatic stress, but mostly longer term stress, like famine. And that's the HPA axis and cortisol. And as you rightly said, different people are different. There's genetic predispositions to which one is dominant, how quick the clearing is. But there's also that, as you rightly say, and a lot of people don't understand this, is that the interaction between nature and nurture. That just because you have a certain variant of a gene, it predisposes you—it doesn't mean you're going to develop that, there needs to be that event. And then we know that those events, when they happen early in life, tend to have a bigger impact. Right? Lisa: So children exposed to trauma are in much deeper in the shit than others Paul: Can be. Unless they have the presence of a caring, supportive adult, often, they can get through it and end up being more resilient. Or they've got a certain variant of a gene, that when they're exposed to stress as a kid, they end up more resilient as an adult. So, it's a really complicated thing. And the thing that I also talk about a lot of people don't, is it also depends on other environmental factors going on. Like what's your nutrition like? Like, what's your sleep like? What's your exercise like? All of those things are hugely, hugely important. It’s a really complicated story, as to whether someone and develop some psychopathology because of exposure to either trauma, or just that insidious day to day stress—what we call de-stress versus used stress, which I'm sure we'll get into. Lisa: Yeah, now that's absolutely exciting because I mean, I preach a lot about doing the fundamentals right. Getting a sleep—at the basis of everything is good quality sleep. And that's not easy. It's not always an easy simple thing. Paul: But check if you're under stress, right? Lisa: Yeah, yeah, because your brain won't bloody turn off. And studying the gamma and dopamine and adrenaline and norepinephrine and all these chemicals that are running out and they're actually controlling us to a large degree, or at least when we're unaware of their influence on the body. But there are things that we can actually do to actually help regulate our own physiology. So I mean, guys and girls in the armies, in the military, have to do this. Or even like I watch my husband and my brother—they’re firefighters—when they're under an emergency situation, three o'clock in the morning, called to a bloody accident, someone's trapped in a burning car type of situation. Like, my husband's just so cool and calm and collected in that moment, like he's completely present. And in daily life, he's quite a shy, introverted dude, right. But when the shit hits the fan, I've seen his like, he doesn't put on a cabbage head. When I looked at his genetics, he doesn't have that predisposition to having adrenaline much. He doesn't have much of an adrenal response. So he'll come up for a minute, and then he'll be back down very quickly, and he’ll be able to control it. And he also understands, I've taught him more about breathing and all that sort of jazz to help regulate your cortisol and all of that sort of stuff. But it is a predisposition.  My predisposition, I have a hell of a lot of adrenaline, testosterone up the wazoo, dopamine. I tend to start really responding and taking action. But I have to actually turn on the prefrontal cortex. I have to really focus on that and not just fly around like a blue ass fly going just running into the burning building without thinking about what the hell I'm doing. So, two different responses—and both are very good responses in a way, if you can learn to manage them and control them and bring them on at the right time. Paul: Yeah, and look, that's where the training element comes into, right? And so, irrespective of what your underlying genetics are, through military training or police or firefighters, they are trained in these situations routinely. And the brain sort of habituates to it and you learn strategies to be effective under that pressure, what we call arousal control strategies, right. So, whether that is—an arousal control can be both ways can be—for people who are generally low, can be getting them up to the right level of arousal. And for people who are a bit too overactive, bringing their arousal down, so they're in that peak performance zone. Let's say the neuroscientist Amy Ornstein talked about Goldilocks and the Goldilocks effect of stress in the brain. That it can't be too little, because when you're bored or you're under arousal, your performance is just not going to be optimal. But also it can’t be too much. And everybody's got a level of arousal that is too much. Lisa: Wow. That's a cool analogy. I like that, Goldilocks. Paul: It's a wonderful analogy. And she's shown, looks at the neurotransmitters that are involved in that—and particularly looking at dopamine and noradrenaline, or norepinephrine, as some people call it, how they're really important in that regulation. But as I say, training, specific training and repetition, can really help people just to get into an automated response. And no matter what their genetic predisposition. Lisa: So if someone is prone to a lot of anxiety, and maybe depression, what are some of the practical—like, if we start talking a few practical strategies now for people dealing with different issues — and let's start with anxiety and maybe depression—what are some of the things that they can do when their amygdala hijacks you? How do you get a grip on yourself and actually change the physiology? Because you feel some big noise happens, or an earthquake happens, or something and you've got that adrenaline just poured out and you’ve got all this stress cortisol and all that, how do you bring yourself down quickly, get yourself under control? So you don't end up in a panic attack, for example? Paul: Yeah, so there's both short-term strategies and there's long term adaptive strategies, right? So, and I'll go into both of those things. First of all, it's important to understand what's going on, right? So this is about the autonomic nervous system. And there are—some of your listeners will be aware of this, but there's two branches of the autonomic nervous system. There's the sympathetic nervous system, and the parasympathetic. And the sympathetic is probably badly labelled because it's not very sympathetic, right? It's the one that increases stress, right? So, and if we think about the response that's going on—so in the brain, the amygdala senses a threat, it sets off a general alarm. And then, the hypothalamus is involved in this, the sympathetic branches is fired up. And for some people, it fires up more than others. But for everybody, when that's fired up, and the vagus nerve is really quite important in this, that's the nerve that connects the brain to the heart, the lungs and all the visceral organs, right? So and the blood pressure goes up, heart rate goes up in order to pump blood to the muscles to give you the fight and runaway, right. And additionally, breathing gets faster and shallower. And then, we know your digestive system is affected and all the blood that is in your digestive system, digesting your food... Lisa: Your peristalsis. Paul: It’s shunted away. It’s shunted away to the working muscles, right, we know the immune system is temporarily switched off, the reproductive system’s temporarily switched off because there's no point in ovulating or creating sperm when you're being chased by a lion. It’s a waste of energy, right? If we think for a second about the long-term consequences when people are in a chronic state of overarousal, even if that's just low baseline overarousal. So, I have a suppressed reproductive system. This is why people who are chronically stressed, and they become infertile. Right? Boom. And this is why they develop digestive system issues like irritable bowel syndrome and stuff like that, which we know can change your microbiome. And then there's a two-way interaction, which we'll talk about later. And the immune system becomes suppressed. That's why people develop—they get sick, and they take longer to recover, whether it's from a wound, whether it's from training load, or whether it's from any type of illness or injury. And then heart damage can happen, right, and with that chronic stress. So that's over activation of the sympathetic branch, and particularly the vagus nerve, right? What we now know is it's only taken our scientists about 3,000 years to catch up with the knowledge of Yogi's, right? Yeah, exactly. Certain breathing patterns can affect your heart and your brain. And I used to think, all that breathing, I used to think it was fluffy bullshit. Until I get into the science—and Jesus, how wrong was I? Lisa: Me, too. I must admit, and now I'm doing it 100 times a day. Paul: Yeah, exactly. So, techniques like box breathing. I'm sure your listeners have probably heard you talk about it. Lisa: Repeatedly. Paul: Yeah, breathe in like the sides of a box. Breathe in for four or five seconds, hold for four or five, out for four or five, hold for four or five. And you can also do a modified box breathe, which is in for four, hold for four, out for six, hold for two. And I'll talk about that in a second. There's also something called resonant frequency breathing, which is also really, really beneficial and can actually enhance your what's called heart rate variability, which is a kind of a window into overall stress on the body.  So, reso-frequency being—you need some equipment to measure it effectively. But generally, everybody listening is probably between four and a half, five breaths and seven breaths a minute. And it's been shown that if you get within one of that, then you could. So I teach people, just generally six breaths a minute, right? So that's 10-second breath cycle, but breathe in for four and out for six. Because the longer breath out—when you breathe in, you are up regulating your sympathetic nervous branch, right? When you breathe out, you're activating the parasympathetic nervous branch. So, the long breath out is really, really key, which is why I talk about the modified box breathing as well. So that resonant frequency breathing, or box breathing can be really, really useful to deal with stuff in and of the moment. Just—it's basically autonomic nervous system controlled through breathing, that’s it. Lisa: Control your physiology in seconds. Paul: And the other thing that goes in concert with that, and my wife uses a lot of this, she's qualified in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy in Japanese psychology. And we're both fans of stoic philosophy. And it is about attention, and all three of these great agree that attention is key. So if we take a step back, people who have anxiety or depression, or just have a beasty mind, they've got a lot of negative self-talk going on, they want to get rid of it, right? But these three approaches, and as they say, look, getting rid of it, it's not really the objective. It's really about where you focus your attention.  So, if you think of your attention, like a light, and when you're in that stress response, your attention, and it is very internal focused, if you're anxious or depressed, or you're stressed about something that's on that particular thing. But it's an internal experience that you're having. So just shifting your attention outward. If you're not in danger, this is—you just have an anxiety, depression, whatever, just look for the colour blue. That's one thing. Just shine the light of your attention somewhere else. Lisa: Like a naughty kid who’s having a tantrum. Just distract them. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And I call that part of the brain your inner gremlin, that’s responsible for anxiety, depression. And but also just negative self-talk and self-criticism, and anger — all of these things. And the key thing to understand is your gremlin’s like a chameleon, right? It can take many guises. But it's like, if you remember the movie Gremlins, when you feed Mogwai after midnight, it becomes energised and turns into the Gremlin. So, when you shine the light of your attention on the gremlin, it becomes energised. So this is where you just shift your attention either to where's the colour blue or what can I smell? Lisa: Or breathing. Paul: Or we like to—or your breathing—yeah, that's another great combination. And I like to talk about shifting your attention to the concept of your inner siege, which is what the Stoic philosophers talked about. That's the optimal version of you. And that's either my best self, me at my best, or some sort of other character that I'm consulting. Lisa: Ah, yes, I heard you talk about this on Craig’s show. And I was like, that analogy that you use, like there was one with your son, Oscar. And him talk, having Derek, I think it was... Paul: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, Derek. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lisa: So creating a character around these two polarizing figures. I’m always talking about the lion and the snake in my head. Or Wonder Woman in this chicken shit, who’s me. And we all have this positive, amazing self. And we have the self that's full of self-doubt and imposter syndrome, and I can't do this, and angry, and negative, and cynical. And so it's creating a character. So tell that story a little bit. Paul: Yeah. So the character thing is really, really powerful. And so I get people to—you've got to bring this character to life, right? So there's a little exercise, which I'll share with you. And you can share with your listeners where, so I call them your inner Gremlin and your inner siege, right? Or you can say whatever you want. So, what do they say first thing in the morning, right? You write that down. Generally your inner Gremlin is the one that says, ‘Press snooze’ or ‘Not another bloody day’, right? But then you go, what do they say when they're faced with a challenge? And then you write down their character strengths and particularly, you focus on your inner siege, what are the character strengths that you have when you're at your best? And then I like to do a thing called plus ones. Like what are ones that you'd like to develop or have more of? And you write down. So, if it's calm under pressure or being more empathetic, I'm going to write down that my inner siege is calm under pressure, is more empathetic, right?  And then drawing the characters is a brilliant thing because it brings it to life. And Oscar when he drew the characters, he drew Derek and he drew Flash, who has now actually being replaced with Richie. A little side story. I actually bought a book called The Real McCaw from Richie McCaw because I am a big fan of the All Blacks, and particularly Richie McCaw. And I bought his book, and I was wanting to read it, and it friggin’, it disappeared, and I couldn't find where it was. And one night, I went down to Oscar’s room. He was supposed to be asleep, and he's there reading. And he's reading that book. He'd nicked it from me, and he had a highlighter. He's 10 years old, and he's highlighting stuff what Richie McCaw said, right. So now, his inner siege is called Richie, right? But when he drew these original ones, he actually did a speech bubble for Derek and it said, ‘I will crush the good ones and I will be the king of Oscar’s head’. How cool is that? Lisa: And he’s 5 or something. Paul:  No, he was seven at a time. Lisa: 7. Oh my god. But I mean, the hard cold, maybe 6, actually. But sometimes kids are so insightful. Because that's what happens, right, is that when that negative character takes a hold of the negative self-talk, it does crush the good self-talk, kind of becomes the king of your head. If you choose to let it, right? Paul: So my inner siege is called, Jeff. So when I'm struggling, or I need to get myself up, I just go ‘What would Jeff do right now’? Right? And so this is a process in psychology called self-distancing, where you're taking yourself out of the emotional state, and you consult a character or my best friend or whatever, and it actually shows it reduces the emotional intensity. And research shows that people make better choices. They're more courageous, and they make better choices, right. And so that's one, I think, really useful way to shine the light of your attention. So, the process that I use, depending on who's around, right, if someone's having a bit of an anxiety or just a bit of negative stuff, I like discharge, recharge, reframe. So think about it, it’s stress hormones, right? If somebody’s having an anxiety, get it out. You got to discharge those stress hormones. When you run away... Lisa: Go for a run. Paul: ...you come back to homeostasis, right. And I find, even 30 seconds of intense activity is enough. So, you discharge the stress hormones, then you recharge by your breathing, right. So you're doing that breathing and you're focusing on your breathing. And then, so your amygdala hijack is gone now. Use you're focusing on the breathing, and then you reframe and you go, ‘Okay, what would Jeff do right now’? Or ‘What would my character do right now’? Or, if I've written down all my character strengths, what action do I need to take right now to display those characteristics? Right? So the Japanese psychology, Morita Therapy, there's this beautiful term called, arugamama, right? It is what it is. And then they say, ‘What needs to be done’? And the stoics are very much like that — what do we need to do right now? So it's very action focused. Right? And so that is something that I think works for me well. Lisa: Yeah. Because it sort of removes yourself so that you're looking—it's like looking down on yourself. Because this brain of ours is like a thought factory, it just keeps going and talking and chattering and go, go, go, go. And yeah, emotions take over, amygdala often is in control of our prefrontal cortex. And if we can separate ourselves and sort of hover over ourselves—and I've been looking into stuff like what happens after death because I just recently lost my dad and all those questions. ‘How do I connect to my dad on the other side’? All of that sort of jazz that nobody can bloody answer, really.  Paul: Yeah, if you get the answer, let me know. Lisa: Yeah, I’m working on it. I'm really trying to get it out. But a lot of talking about the connection to the other side and opening up those channels, and to me, it's like, okay. So just from a brain point of view, if I just separate myself out from my brain, like, if you believe that we are a spiritual being and so our brain, our body, we're just walking around in this earthly body, but we have a higher self, if you like. So, it’s this higher self looking at that brain going, ‘Oh she's running that stupid program again that she learned when she was seven. It's no longer relevant here, I need to change the recording, and I need to change up’.  So it's just giving yourself a way of separating yourself from the actual emotions that your body is feeling, your physiology is feeling like now. And for me, a lot of it is, when I get anxious and stuff, I will just go and sprint for 50 metres. Like you say, it doesn't have to be long, it might be 2 minutes. It just comes back, reset myself. Sometimes if it's a really bad situation or whatever, I'll have a little cry that discharges more energy. And then I pick myself up and we'll get on with it, and we'll do a breathing, and we'll get back into gear. And just having those little tools in your toolbox can really help you manage the day-to-day crap that comes at us. And even in the big situations, the really traumatic ones, I've used those situations regularly—just remove myself for a minute from the situation, go and get my shit together. And then come back into the situation. And that can really help if you have the luxury of doing that. So, I think these are really, really important because people often think, well, they look at someone like you and all your achievements and all stuff that you've done—or even in all the races that I've done. ‘No, never. I could never do that’. And that's your automatic negative thoughts coming in, your angst, as Dr. Daniel Amen talks about, they just pop up. And you need to realize that that isn't you, that's just your brain doing its thing. And you can choose not to believe that brain when it tells you you're not good enough, or you're not sexy enough, or you're not pretty enough, you're not strong enough, whatever the case may be. You can go, ‘No, I'm not listening to that’. And I'm diverting, and what you're saying, is divert your attention. Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And those answers are automatic negative thoughts. In Morita Therapy, Japanese psychology, it's basically, it’s a story. It's a story that we tell ourselves, and there are a number of different stories. And it depends what story we pay attention to. And because when you pay attention to a particular story, when we think about what's happening in the brain, that self-concept, or that idea that ‘I'm not good enough’, is basically what we call a neural net in the brain, right? It's a bunch of neurons that are firing together for a concept or a thought or a particular line of thinking.  And the Scottish neuroscientist Donald Hebb showed in the 1950s, it's called Hebbian Learning. And it's a well-accepted way of the brain works, nerve cells that fire together, wire together. Right? So every time you're repeating that thought, or paying attention to it, you're strengthening it. And he showed that eventually, after a certain amount of repetitions—and we don't know the magic number—but that circuit becomes what's called long-term potentiation. This means that this circuit is primed for firing. And it means that then even neutral information is more likely to fire off that circuit, right? And every time you're paying attention to it, you're strengthening it.  So, the other approach is to go, ‘Thanks, Gremlin’, or ‘Thanks, brain. Thanks for that story that you're telling me. But it's not helpful right now’. Right. And that's where you focus on another story, or a particular affirmation that people might have. A different story, I've got this, whatever, it's another neural net. And every time you're focusing on it, and paying attention to it, you're strengthening it, right? So it's about interrupting the old and maladaptive, unhelpful thought patterns... Lisa: That we all have. Paul: ...and actually creating new ones. And every time you catch yourself—this is why the first part of all of this is about being the watcher. It's about being the watcher in your own brain. And for lots of people, this is a frigging revelation, that they can actually watch their thoughts, and do it with curiosity. And go, ‘Wow, there's an interesting negative thought. And that's an interesting negative’...  Lisa: Great example! Paul: Yeah. And then be curious and go, ‘Well, what would a more positive thought actually be’? Right? So you can trick yourself into having these positive thoughts and every time you're doing it, you're laying down and strengthening those networks in the brain, right? So like anything, like you didn't become awesome at what you did by doing it once and then boom, that's it. It's about repetition, repetition, repetition. So, really the first step is being the watcher, and then just repeatedly intervening, and going, ‘Actually, I have a choice’, right? And what's called in Acceptance Commitment Therapy, the choice point. And Viktor Frankl talked about it, the Jewish psychiatrist who was imprisoned in Auschwitz. And I read his book as a 17-year-old, had a pretty profound effect on me. He said, in between stimulus and response, is the space where we have the ability to choose. And he talked about the last of human freedoms, is your ability to choose how you react to your circumstances, whether they be external circumstances or circumstances in your head, we all have that ability to choose how we're reacting, right. And choosing what we actually focus on. And it's this light of attention, that I think is really, really powerful. So when we wrap it all up in those characters, and then we're repeatedly doing it, and then people are waking up in the morning, and actually spending a few minutes saying, ‘Okay, who am I going to be today? What version of me is going to interact with the world’? And every time they observe negativity going, ‘Well, I say I've got a choice right now. What would Jeff do right now’? Right? Before they walk into their office, and just before you walk in the door, just think, ‘What do I need to do to express those characteristics of my best self’? And especially when you come home, particularly if you've had a shitty day, you just spend 10 or 15 seconds going, ‘Okay, there's a choice here and what version of me, do my partner, my little kids want to see walk into the room’? Right?  And it's just that little mental rehearsal, as you'll have done hundreds of thousands of times as an athlete and every world class athlete does this mental rehearsal because that shit works. Get your game face on. Lisa: Get your game face. I have this analogy and I've told this story before on the podcast but when I was doing this race in the Himalayas and absolutely terrified, 222 K's of extreme altitude... Paul: Jesus Christ! Lisa: And I’m an asthmatic with a small set of lungs, who did mostly deserts for a particular reason. And I was absolutely packing myself, and I got my crew together like two days before and I said, ‘You have to protect me, my brain. You have to like tell me how amazing I am. Every time a negative thought comes up, I want you to sort of shout it down for me and protect me from everyone else’.  And on the day of the actual event, they did that and they really helped me get my shit under control because I was really losing it. Like I was just terrified I'd had a concussion in the build-up, I'd had to rip some ligaments, so I hadn't had a good build up. And it was the scariest thing I've done at the time. And I've done some other scary crazier shit but that was pretty up there.  And on race day, you wake up and you have that moment for a second where you go, ‘Oh shit. It’s that day’. That day you've been  preparing for, for a year and a half, but it's that day and you've got to get up and face down 222Ks in the mountains in extreme temperature, extreme altitude, and no air and things. And I'm putting on my gear, and then that person changes. When I put on my running gear... Paul: That’s your thing. Right. Lisa: It’s my thing. That's my ritual. Paul: That’s your siege. Lisa: When I put on a number, there's a different person in front of you. And that person is a freaking warrior. Paul: Machine, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, in my head. I’m not, but I am in my head, in that moment, I am Wonder Woman. I'm Gal Gadot. I can do any freaking thing and I’m telling myself the story, I'm telling myself the story in order to create the chemicals in my body that I need just to get to the freaking start line and not run the other way because I'm terrified.  And then, once you start and you're in the battle, you're in the battle. You're in it. There's no way out but through. And then you have to bring in all the guns. Over the period of the next 53 hours, I had to bring out all of the stock, sort of things, to get through every crisis that came. And these voices in your head are pretty freaking loud after 50 something hours out there. Paul: That they bloody well are, yeah. Lisa: Yeah, but when you go—because one of the other analogies that I wanted to bring up that you talked so well about in one of the interviews was the small circle and the big circle. And the small circle is your comfort zone. That's you, that's the life that you're living when you're in your comfy world and you're not pushing outside the zone. And you’re staying safe because you're too frightened to jump out into the big circle is what you can be, and your potential.  But out there, in that big circle, it's freaking scary, it's hard work, it's terrifying, there’s risk of failure, there's all sorts of things. And everybody wants to be that big person that does these, lives this full life, that reaches their—none of us will reach our full potential, but we're reaching a heck of a lot of potential. And not living in the safe, little comfortable, ‘I'm scared’ world. And pushing yourself every single today to do shit that hurts, that’s hard, scares the crap out of you. And then coming back and recovering. Paul: It’s critical, right? And I called that big circle, our scientists will refer to that as the zone of productive disequilibrium, right? Lisa: Those are scientists’ words? Paul: Yeah, exactly. So you're out of balance, you're out of whack. But it is where adaptation happens. And this is the problem. So we are by our very nature, we are comfort seekers, right. And just because all of our history has been of discomfort, and so it's pretty natural that we're comfort seekers. The problem is that we have an ancient genome in a modern world. Our genome hasn't changed in 45,000 years, right. And for the vast majority of our human history, we had lots of discomfort, life was uncomfortable, and we became the dominant species on Earth, largely because we adapted better to environmental stressors and pressures than other species right. Now, what's happened in the last 100 years since the Industrial Revolution, particularly in the last 30 years, is that we have stopped adapting to our environment, and we've started changing it. And recently, we've changed our environment to such a level that we're no longer optimally matched to it genetically, right. So when we seek comfort, we get soft, we develop a soft underbelly. And this is what a lot of the positive psychology people do not talk about, is that getting comfortable with being uncomfortable.  And you can just do this, quite simply, if you're sitting listening to this, think of your biggest achievement in your life, something that you are most proud of. And I guarantee you, for almost every listener, it will involve stress and being out of your comfort zone. But we need to hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen. And lots of people spend most of their life in that little small circle, the comfort zone, and they dip their toe into the uncomfortable zone of productive disequilibrium. They go, ‘This is uncomfortable. I'm getting right out of here’. No good shit ever happened in your comfort zone. Right? Lisa: It’s a quote from Paul Taylor, ‘No good shit ever happens in your comfort zone’. You gotta put that one on the wall. Paul: It’s like past 2am. Right?  That's the thing, no good shit happens there. So, it is about seeking discomfort. And one of my things, which you actually exemplify much better than me, but it’s that get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? Yeah, that's really key. And I think we have, as a generation, particularly in the West, we have got comfortable with being comfortable. And we are comfort seekers. Lisa: Getting cosy all the time. Paul: It's all, it's served up to us everywhere. And we're prompted to buy things and do things that make us comfortable. And it's natural to want to go there. But it's not self-serving. Lisa: But our biology isn't, our epi genome isn't suited. Paul: Absolutely not. Lisa: Getting out of that thermoneutral zone, for example, like cold showers, cold water, hot. All of these things that are outside the neutral zone are where the change happens, from a physiological point of view. If I hop into a sauna, I'm going to create heat-shock proteins, I’m gonna sweat. That's going to cause all this cascade of events in my body that will make me stronger. The next time when I go to the gym and I work out with weights, then I'm going to be sore and I'm going to be breaking down the tissues. What happens is a cascade of events that makes me stronger for next week. Paul: And here's the thing, right, that if somebody wants, if somebody goes one, if someone hasn’t been trained for ages and particularly, they’re bloke. And they go riding got to get back and then they go to a CrossFit class or F 45 hard core. And they go, ‘Jesus. That was ridiculous. I'm never doing that again’. But then you're not going to adapt, right? You only get bigger, faster, stronger, because you hang with the tension long enough for adaptation to happen right. Now, seeking comfort, we should do that when we're in recovery, right? But a lot of people, and we should really define the difference between recovery and relaxation. Right? Recovery isn't sitting with your feet up with a bottle of wine watching Netflix, right? Recovery is stuff that is actually energising you, right? It’s doing the breathing stuff, it’s doing the meditation, doing the tai chi, the qi gong, those sorts of things, yoga. Or for some people, it's drawing, it's reading a book, it's connecting with others, it's gardening, it's spending time in nature. These are all things that really help us with that balance between stress and recovery. And when, if we get that right, the stress becomes used stress. And if we are just exposed to that too much or don't get the recovery, right, it's de stress. And then we can go into burnout/overtraining syndrome, which then when you look at the physiology between overtrained athletes and burnt out executives and depressed people, it’s almost identical. Lisa: Yeah. And like, I've had to try to get my head around this because when you're an athlete—and I grew up in a household where being tough was cool. And physical toughness and mental toughness were what was valued and what was rewarded in my family. So therefore, I have this complete construct in my head that if you're not tough, and you're not hard ass all the time, then you're useless. And I had to deconstruct that a little bit because that lead me to burnout, that broke me, that lead to hell of a lot of pain in sickness and all sorts of things. Now, as I'm hopefully older and wiser, I know that my body also has a full on and it has to have a full off. And that recovery is really important. And that recovery can be cuddling the cat, it can be going to the beach with my husband and just staring at the waves for half an hour to recover. It doesn't have to be something epic, and it can be something like the sauna

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

Paul: So Amy, I was talking to somebody the other day and they told me that you had quite a number of like interesting little odd jobs. So I'm interested, so could you tell me a bit about that.Amy: I don't know how odd they were. I don't know. When I was in university, part time jobs, I used to work in restaurants and—the usual stuff—restaurants, and I think my favorite was working in a nightclub. It was a really, really big nightclub and I used to work on the floor, just kind of cleaning up, looking after all the drunk patrons.And my first night there was—actually, one of my favorite DJs was on, so that was great. I got to listen to really good music whilst finding money on the floor, and cleaning up after folks. It was really good.Paul: You found some money on the floor.Amy: Yeah. You know, it was a busy club. Really, really full, a good couple of thousand people in there. And I guess people were doing whatever they were doing and they would drop big wads of cash. And because I was the person to clean up all the glass bottles, then I would find the wads of cash on the floor. So it was good. I'd get my wages, I'd get tips, and then I would get my own personal tips from finding money on the floor.Paul: So you must have found like a whole range of different things, like, what else did you find?Amy: Yeah. A little wraps of things, and then packets of things, yeah. I mean, I had to work hard for the money. It wasn't easy because the place was full, absolutely rammed of people. Everybody is incredibly drunk or whatever and they all just want to dance and have a good time. And I have to make sure there's no broken glass for safety reasons, obviously. So I'm pushing my way through the crowd and keeping eyes on the floor constantly with a torch. And alongside the broken glass that I would sweep up would be, yeah, wads of cash, sometimes little purses, little bags, things like that.When I find, like, identification for things—when it was a purse, I would do the right thing with it, hand it in but it was just a wad up, like a rolled-up set of notes, I would just put them in my pocket for me, basically.Paul: Yeah, it's difficult to know what to do with cash because you're handing it to someone who—well, it's cash, isn't it?Amy: I know.Paul: Yeah, yeah.Amy: I remember finding some driving license and student ID, and I took—it was actually the same university that I went to at the time, and I just took it to uni when I was going during the week. And I handed it in to make sure that it got back to the owner because you know that's the worst thing about when you lose your purse or your wallet. The cash, you can kind of just say goodbye to. It's a given really that it's going to be gone, but it's your ID and your cards and everything. It's such a hassle trying to get them back again. So I wanted to make sure that whoever drunken idiot dropped them in that club that it got back to their hands safely.Paul: Well, that's nice. So you're a thief with heart then.Amy: I'm not a thief. I'm an opportunist.Paul: I'm kidding. I'm kidding.Amy: It's on the floor.Paul: I'm pulling your leg, Amy. No, I would have done the same.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So being fair-skinned, do you burn easily in the sun?Aimee: I do! I get really, really freckly, just turn into one big freckle. I have to be careful not to get burned, yeah. I'm careful with my sun lotion. How about you?Paul: Yeah, I'm not a sunbather. I can't think of anything more boring to be quite honest with you. I may not get it lying on the beach – you've got the sand, you've got the surf. I do get it, but I just get too bored. I'd rather be more active, doing some sort of swimming, some sort of activity….Aimee: I really enjoy swimming in the ocean. If I go to the beach, I don't sunbathe at all. I sit in the shade until I just want to swim in the ocean: go snorkeling, see something. That's a lot more fun.Paul: Mmmm, yeah, see something, explore a bit. Yeah, yeah. I mean the sea creatures are actually fascinating really. You put that snorkel on, it's as if you've gone into a new world.Aimee: I couldn't do that in Scandinavia, I don't think.Paul: Speaking of Scandinavia, I did a homestay when I was a high school student.Aimee: Oh, did you?Paul: Yeah, and it was with a Danish family. And the mother was very kind of typically Scandinavian. Uhm, like stereotypically very strong, blond hair, and every day of the year without fail, she would swim in the sea.Aimee: Oh my goodness.Paul: You know there'd big blocks of ice in the sea, and she'd still be swimming.Aimee: A sturdy lass.Paul: Yeah, she swore by it. I think she really believed that it was good for the circulation and her health. Yes, but admiration, but I won't want to follow her.Aimee: I don't think I could - only certain times a year.Paul: Yeah.

Paul and Allison try to decide to attempt to maybe review breakfast. This episode is not explicit. Performed by Coral Baxter-Ellis, Paul Ellis, and Allison Baxter. http://dcritpodcast.com TRANSCRIPT CORAL Mom, Dad, you ready? What's your review going to be on? PAUL We're reviewing breakfast! CORAL Oh you mean like IHOP or Jimmy Dean sausage? PAUL No, like having breakfast- ALLISON Yuck. PAUL It's the most important meal of the day, Allison. ALLISON Breakfast is gross. Who can eat that early? PAUL Well you've essentially starved your body for eight hours, so you're being cruel to your body. ALLISON Since when do you eat breakfast anyway, Paul? You don't get up until 11. Like a damn teenager. CORAL Hey, this damn teenager gets up at seven. PAUL You might be a bit more pleasant in the morning if you actually ate something. ALLISON Really, Paul? PAUL and ALLISON ad-lib, anything can be said as they are not listening to each other CORAL You can't blame a soul for trying. So there's your review of the importance of breakfast, if you can call it that. That was my parents Allison Baxter and Paul Ellis. I'm Coral Baxter-Ellis and you can catch our podcast Deconstructive Criticism starting this fall. Episode music "Coffee" by Cambo

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So being fair-skinned, do you burn easily in the sun?Aimee: I do! I get really, really freckly, just turn into one big freckle. I have to be careful not to get burned, yeah. I'm careful with my sun lotion. How about you?Paul: Yeah, I'm not a sunbather. I can't think of anything more boring to be quite honest with you. I may not get it lying on the beach – you've got the sand, you've got the surf. I do get it, but I just get too bored. I'd rather be more active, doing some sort of swimming, some sort of activity….Aimee: I really enjoy swimming in the ocean. If I go to the beach, I don't sunbathe at all. I sit in the shade until I just want to swim in the ocean: go snorkeling, see something. That's a lot more fun.Paul: Mmmm, yeah, see something, explore a bit. Yeah, yeah. I mean the sea creatures are actually fascinating really. You put that snorkel on, it's as if you've gone into a new world.Aimee: I couldn't do that in Scandinavia, I don't think.Paul: Speaking of Scandinavia, I did a homestay when I was a high school student.Aimee: Oh, did you?Paul: Yeah, and it was with a Danish family. And the mother was very kind of typically Scandinavian. Uhm, like stereotypically very strong, blond hair, and every day of the year without fail, she would swim in the sea.Aimee: Oh my goodness.Paul: You know there'd big blocks of ice in the sea, and she'd still be swimming.Aimee: A sturdy lass.Paul: Yeah, she swore by it. I think she really believed that it was good for the circulation and her health. Yes, but admiration, but I won't want to follow her.Aimee: I don't think I could - only certain times a year.Paul: Yeah.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听 Paul: So being fair-skinned, do you burn easily in the sun?Aimee: I do! I get really, really freckly, just turn into one big freckle. I have to be careful not to get burned, yeah. I'm careful with my sun lotion. How about you?Paul: Yeah, I'm not a sunbather. I can't think of anything more boring to be quite honest with you. I may not get it lying on the beach – you've got the sand, you've got the surf. I do get it, but I just get too bored. I'd rather be more active, doing some sort of swimming, some sort of activity….Aimee: I really enjoy swimming in the ocean. If I go to the beach, I don't sunbathe at all. I sit in the shade until I just want to swim in the ocean: go snorkeling, see something. That's a lot more fun.Paul: Mmmm, yeah, see something, explore a bit. Yeah, yeah. I mean the sea creatures are actually fascinating really. You put that snorkel on, it's as if you've gone into a new world.Aimee: I couldn't do that in Scandinavia, I don't think.Paul: Speaking of Scandinavia, I did a homestay when I was a high school student.Aimee: Oh, did you?Paul: Yeah, and it was with a Danish family. And the mother was very kind of typically Scandinavian. Uhm, like stereotypically very strong, blond hair, and every day of the year without fail, she would swim in the sea.Aimee: Oh my goodness.Paul: You know there'd big blocks of ice in the sea, and she'd still be swimming.Aimee: A sturdy lass.Paul: Yeah, she swore by it. I think she really believed that it was good for the circulation and her health. Yes, but admiration, but I won't want to follow her.Aimee: I don't think I could - only certain times a year.Paul: Yeah.

When you’re entering a new company or a new market, there are lessons to be learned from the past and opportunities to grab hold of to propel yourself and your company forward. Paul Lanham entered a new company and industry all at once when he became the Chief Information and E-Commerce Officer at Charlotte's Web, a CBD company.   On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, Paul details how he used his experience at companies such as Crocs, HCL and Brookstone to help guide him as he helped grow the Ecommerce business at Charlotte’s Web to the point where it now represents 65% of the business. Paul explains the methods he has used to generate qualified traffic, conversions and a high retention rate, and he discusses the technology he thinks is going to make a huge impact on Ecommerce in the future. Main Takeaways: Respect The Work That Came Before You: As a leader coming into a new company, there can be a tendency to try to change too much too fast. Instead, acknowledge and respect the work that was happening prior to your arrival, and then try to evolve that work into something more.  Let the Tools Handle the Work: Humans are excellent at many things, but we all have inherent biases and miss certain correlations or connections. Rather than trying to analyze all the data you have on your own, employ technology like A.I. that will ignore most (unprogrammed) bias and can do the deep work a human brain is incapable of. Tech is Catching Up To Personalization: For so long, there has been a promise of technology that could interact in a human way with customers in real-time. That technology is finally starting to become a reality and those that can implement it properly can take personalization of their Ecommerce experiences to the next level. For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length. --- Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce --- Transcript: Stephanie: Welcome back to Up Next In Commerce. This is Stephanie Postles, co-founder of Mission.org and your host. Today we have Paul Lanham on the show, the Chief Information and Ecommerce Officer at Charlotte's Web. Paul, welcome. Paul: Hi, nice to be here. Stephanie: I'm glad to have you. Yeah, I'm really excited. I've used Charlotte's Web products before. So, when I saw that you were in our queue for interviews, I was like, "Oh, this is going to be a good interview." Paul: That's good to hear you have some perspective then. Stephanie: To start, I was looking through your background and was really impressed by some of the companies that you've worked at. I'd love for you to first before talking about Charlotte's Web, kind of go through a little bit about your history and then what brought you to Charlotte's Web. Paul: Sure. As you just noted, I have a pretty diverse background mostly in the retial and CBG and technology industries. What's really colored my career is that I've been given a lot of opportunities, some of which I hadn't had a lot of experience in including Ecommerce when I started in its infancy in the mid '90s when you had to build everything. You couldn't really go to the corner shop and buy an Ecommerce server. Paul: But I basically have touched on virtually every aspect of Ecommerce over the past 20 somewhat years. I've been a C level executive for about 25 years and worked for a diverse group of companies, a variety of sizes. Some startups. Paul: I started my own tech company and now it's Charlotte's Web, which I have to say is very much different in terms of its make up versus the companies I've worked for in the past. Stephanie: Yes. And just for people to know the difference, it would be great if you could name drop a bit. I know people hate name dropping, but I'd love to hear what were some of the companies, the largest ones you've worked at? I think you can compare it to Charlotte's Web. Paul: Sure. I worked for what was a startup, Crocs. I think people will recognize the infamous shoe company that is just located down the street from where I work. Paul: I've worked for Jones Apparel Group, which is a mega apparel conglomerate that own companies like Barneys New York, Jones New York, Apollo Jeans, et cetera, in the apparel industry. Paul: I started a tech company that eventually became a subsidiary of HCL Technologies, which is a global tech firm based in India. Paul: And Brookstone, which is the gadget shop, competing with Sharper Image. Again, near its infancy as well. So, a diverse group of experiences. Stephanie: Yeah, that's amazing. With some of these companies you've worked at previously, are there a lot of lessons that you were able to bring to Charlotte's Web or is it just such a different beast that you kind of had to just start over and had a completely new hat on? Paul: Well, basically if you've been a C level executive for a number of years you have some successes and you have some failures and hopefully you learn from the failures, and I've had them too. Paul: Implemented virtually every kind of system you can imagine. Been on the business side from an Ecommerce perspective and learned a lot of different things that I've been able to bring to Charlotte's Web. Paul: Back to the diversity of my career, one thing I can note, I probably have been in just about every function that you can imagine from finance, to marketing, to sales, to Ecommerce, et cetera, et cetera. Paul: So, I think that brings somewhat of a unique perspective to a company like Charlotte's Web, where I frankly I have a lot of empathy for my peers in other departments because I've done a lot of their jobs. Stephanie: Yeah, that is so important. I've worked at previous companies where someone doesn't understand I worked in finance back in the day and people do not understand the complexity or why there are certain procedures set up and you can definitely see tension between certain groups if they've never worked in that team before. So, that's key I think. Paul: Absolutely, and financial people can be fun. Most people don't know that. Stephanie: They can be. Just like me, I'm fun. You're fun Paul. I'd love to hear or I'd love for you to explain what is Charlotte's Web and maybe even starting with the story behind it, behind the name. Paul: Sure. Charlotte's Web is CBD company that was founded by the seven Stanley Brothers and that's a wonderful story in it of itself in that they grew up in the Cannabis industry. Paul: But the company's namesake, Charlotte Figi, who many people may remember from the Sanjay Gupta CNN Specials from years back and most recently illustrating how there was this trajectory of various peoples and things to help a little child basically survive. Paul: So, our namesake Charlotte really is like our guiding star or north star in the context of our mission, which is to help people through natural products that Charlotte's Web produces. Paul: So, it's a young industry, it's a young company where we are a market leader. Obviously we are commercial, but we're always grounded by our original mission and we still do help quite a few people to where our product is very essential like the Charlottes olive oil. Stephanie: Yeah. I was looking at the I am Charlotte video on your website and it definitely gave me goosebumps. When did you guys create that campaign? Paul: Well, it's basically been the past year. The point is with her passing it really shook us all to our core because frankly it was probably one of the core reasons that most of us joined the company. I was fortunate to be able to meet Charlotte and her mother Paige a couple of times. Paul: But many people in my company, and obviously the Stanley Brothers basically grew up in this company attached to Charlotte's story. The I am Charlotte campaign is currently just obviously a testimony and our take on how beloved she is and still is. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. The CBD industry as you mentioned, it is kind of a new-ish industry. When you're in California it seems like it's been around forever, but when you go to other states or back to my hometown, people still kind of have they either don't know what it is or yeah, are just very unclear about what it is. You have different preconceived notions, you can say. Stephanie: So, how do you all think about kind of educating the public or new buyers who come to your site for the first time? Paul: Certainly. Two points, actually about 15% of households have had some experience with CBD in the United States. And still because it's such an emerging industry, word of mouth is still very important. Typically, people first get exposed to CBD by a relative or a friend or somebody mentioning it that it helped them. Paul: When they go to search for it, we basically are actually a leader at Charlotte's Web because we rank very high on the first page, in the first third with what is CBD. To that point, we spend a good deal of time on our site through blog entries and various educational videos that we put out to educate our customer on the difference, for example, between hemp and cannabis or what is the efficacy of CBD and various in-depth, I guess, videos to illustrate the depth of what they could know about CBD. Paul: So, it very much is still an educational process as you've mentioned to evangelize the use of CBD. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. How did you all become a market leader? I know you were not first, but you definitely were some of the early leaders or even starting up in this industry. But how did you go about making sure people had your name as the household name when it came to CBD? Paul: Sure. They were among the first and the brand story between the Stanley Brothers and Charlotte really resonated. It was made for this industry and the mission that the Stanley Brothers inoculated into the company and we still have in terms of evangelizing the product and natural products to the world to help people, I think resonate with people. Paul: When you talk about, for example, our end-to-end integration from seed to shelf, our quality, et cetera, all those things kind of are confluence in terms of being perceived as a quality brand and a premium brand to a consumer. Paul: There are a lot of smart business decisions along the way, frankly, in terms of becoming that market leader. Stephanie: What kind of smart business decisions? Now you've piqued my interest. Paul: Okay. For example, going really strong in Ecommerce initially in that the nature of the industry is that there's been a slower adoption in the major retailers because hemp frankly, from a federal perspective, wasn't quite legal until a couple of years ago based on the format. Paul: There are some reticence in terms of conservative retailers to carry the product. So, they were very smart in not necessarily going the mom-and-pop route even though we have a big natural store population on the retail side. Paul: But going very strong with Ecommerce and hiring the right people right off the bat a couple few years ago to basically push the commercial side of this. Ecommerce right now represents about 65% of our business as was in the first quarter. That's somewhat of a higher percentage than many of our competitors. Stephanie: What do you think is attributed to that higher percentage? Paul: Being first out of the gate. Being very professional about it. But the primary drivers, they're a couple, back to the brand story that really resonated, was beautifully presented on the site and for media. Paul: Secondarily, the quality that we bring to the table that we try to communicate to other consumers. From that seed to shelf continuum, we test the product 20 times, we track each individual bottle or tincture or the like back to a specific lot and seeds. We could document virtually anything anyone needs to know about that particular product. Paul: So, particularly in this industry where you have an influx of competitors, some of which frankly are not quite as sophisticated in the context of testing and the branding. You can really stand out by basically taking care of those issues. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. That is how I found you guys in the early days was because quality to me is the biggest factor when it comes to CBD. Paul: Absolutely. Stephanie: And it's also something that a lot of people worried about early on because you do hear horror stories and it felt good going to a company knowing yeah, they've already got everything figured out. They've got the dosing down to its seed. They've got it's non-GMO and yeah, I think that's so important with an industry like this. Paul: Absolutely. Stephanie: The one thing I was thinking about was consumer journeys. Everyone is coming to your website maybe at a different place like we were mentioning before. Some people are brand new or they've maybe never even heard of it, where education is key. Stephanie: Some people have heard about it. You've got the people who maybe are hiding their browsers when they're looking for it or the people like me it's like, "Yeah, this is an obvious thing that can help you." Paul: Sure, sure. Stephanie: How do you personalize either your Ecommerce experience or your marketing efforts to kind of go after all those people and meet them where they are? Paul: Well that's a good question because when I mentioned sophisticated we invested in tools that enable us to personalize that journey. So, for example, back to my comment on what is CBD. Paul: If somebody enters that as a search term and they have to click on our link, we will take them initially to the education materials and will kind of guide them through the process from the Ecommerce perspective of walking them through that journey and hopefully they purchase. Paul: We do that in the context of segmenting our email channel. We have a variety of channels and we handle each one differently. Our affiliate channel, for example, is very strong in terms of the partners we deal with like a Healthline.com, which yet again is another educational component in that we're very strong with them. Paul: So, depending on the channel, depending on the entry point of our consumer, we will treat them differently in the context of where we land them on the website, what we offer to them in the context of their journey through the website, and what promotional activity we engage with them. Stephanie: Got it. Yeah that make sense. When it comes to affiliate programs, how did you all think about setting that up and is that still a big part of your strategy or did you kind of pull back on that once you started becoming more of a household name? Paul: It's still and will be a very big part of our strategy in that penetration of CBD from a search to perspective is still relatively low compared to what I've experienced in the past so that we're still in an emerging phase where we need to use and leverage every channel we can. Paul: So, as strong as our Ecommerce business is, which happens to be frankly Ecommerce alone at Charlotte's Web is a market leader in revenue compared to every other CBD company, just alone. It kind of tells you the scale of our business. Paul: But what I'm getting at, the Healthline.com affiliate is very important to us in that it is the number one rated medical advice site, I believe, if I look at the statistics recently. Paul: Every entry point is different for every consumer and we need to leverage all those different entry points. We can't, for example, rely solely on organic search as an example, not that we would. But we basically go through every venue. Stephanie: Got it. What does it look like setting up a partnership like that? Because, I think that is really important kind of finding someone who has a good reputation that a lot of people trust. But what did that look like setting that partnership up and making it so both sides feel like it's a win-win? Paul: Well to your point, it's important to vet the partner because obviously you don't want to be presented on a site that doesn't quite meet your value set or your brand image. So, we're fairly choosy in terms of the affiliate partners that we work with. Paul: Obviously, in some cases it's a longer negotiation in that obviously we want to do it on advantageous terms in terms of the share basically. So, we don't cast a wide swath in the context of the affiliate partners we deal with. We're very selective. Stephanie: Got it. So, the one thing that I was wondering earlier when you were mentioning failures and you of course have a huge backlog of experience at other companies, what did your first 90 days look like coming in to Charlotte's Web and what big things did you change from the start based on maybe past failures or successes that you've had at prior companies? Paul: Well, like entries in the most companies it's a rush. My story, this is pre-COVID times obviously, I talked on the phone with a board member and my boss, the CEO, on a Friday. I flew over the weekend, got there on Monday. I took the job sight unseen after a phone call. Stephanie: Wow. Paul: I was so enamored of it. I've never done that before. And Danny has never hired anybody like that before, it just went so well. I showed up on Monday and I didn't leave for 90 days, much to the consonation of my significant other in Boston. So, we worked it out. Paul: But it was just a rush of understanding the industry in-depth, doing triage in the context it was still a start mentality, triage in the context of building a business intelligence stack, revamping the Ecommerce organization, planning the next iterations and improvements, setting up for the holiday season for example. Paul: When I joined, literally the week after I joined we kicked off a new platform upgrade that we only had a couple of months to do prior to holidays. So, it was a lot of long days. Stephanie: Was that something that you feel like you could step into because I'm sure you've done many re-platforming experiences before? Paul: Yeah. There is some muscle memory and back to my point, you always want to learn from your failures and not do them again or at least understand the context and admit them. Basically one of those issues is that one has to listen very carefully. Paul: I parachuted into a company that was going 1,000 miles an hour and one of the lessons I've learned in the past is honor the past because there was a great deal of work and a lot of great work done that I took the attitude of evolving and adding to as opposed to turning the part which many C level executives take that as their mandate. Paul: I've never really done that. It's one of the failures I've learned from in my past that basically sometimes evolution is better than tearing things apart. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I love that and I think the quote too. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: So, I'm sure another thing that you kind of the change of thinking on would be how you track the success of a business or the Ecommerce site. What kind of metrics, did you maybe look at prior companies where you were like this is our set of metrics that always made sense versus what do you look at now at Charlotte's Web? Paul: Well, there are quite a few. You know the Ecommerce business, there are probably 20 things that you look on a daily basis. That's my routine in the morning, I get up and I look at basically all the metrics. Paul: But what's important here, more so than perhaps, it's always in the top three conversion for example, on unbalanced traffic. It's significant here because you're engagement with a new customer and maybe fleeting because of the nature of the industry, the curiosity about CBD, people not knowing about it. Paul: I actually had to look at that statistic or those statistics several times because they didn't believe them, they were so high. That's a testament to the people and the staff that were here in that whether it's educating the consumer, or the customer experience on the site, or customer care on the backend, we have a high percentage of sales that convert. Paul: So, that probably is a much more important stat that I've paid attention to in the past. It's always been in the top three or four. Paul: Retention of consumers. Again, in this sort of industry because of the fleeting interaction with your customers, we have a very strong subscription program that is very important to us, which are typically customers who deem the product to be essential to their wellbeing. Paul: So, we've put a good deal of emphasis on that as well as retaining customers, and again, without divulging the statistics, it's much higher than I've experienced in my past 20 plus years of experience in Ecommerce. Stephanie: What do you think is making it so high? How are you all retaining customers so well or encouraging people to subscribe? Paul: Well, it's high because I guess in a way our traffic is more qualified, then again I've experience in the past. When they come through the site and they've been educated, there's a slightly high degree of propensity to buy. So, that's a factor. Paul: Plus some of our tools really facilitate the conversion in that. Not that we're pushy but we don't let go in the context of okay, this isn't right for you, maybe this or how about this promotion or have you rethought this through the customer journey in the site? Stephanie: Yeah. Paul: Basically, there's a pre-decisive to buy basically once they get to our site. Stephanie: Is there any initiatives that you've implemented when it comes to, like you said, it's nice you don't let go and you make sure to make to keep reminding them or showing them new products or new ideas. Stephanie: Is there anything that you've implemented recently around those kind of initiatives that have increased conversions or increased subscription rates or anything, or anything that you've done where you're like that was a big flop, don't try that? Paul: Well yeah. Again, getting much more sophisticated, I don't think anybody else has implemented the suite of what I call campaign tools and analytical tools. Typically, people use the standard GA or Google tools and we've gone past that and utilizing tools that I've used in much bigger companies without naming the company. Paul: So, we can have a high degree of personalization in terms of how we treat our customers as they kind of navigate through our site. A much higher capability in terms of test and react and basically inoculating those scenarios and situations into our campaigns eventually down to the individual level. Paul: So, we're still learning some of those. We've implemented those over the past three or four months. The company is still, my staff is still learning some of the aspects of those tools. Paul: On top of that from an analytic standpoint, which is a little unusual in the industry, we dived in with both feet from an artificial intelligence perspective because I joke with my staff and they read too rapidly that my experience doesn't always mean anything. I think I know everything about my customer and I'm confounded constantly in terms of why I was wrong on that. Paul: It comes down to the data and what artificial intelligence does for example, is that it makes those deep correlations that none of us would have thought of, I would have never thought of with my 20 plus years of experience of how our customers actually interact with our site or what are they thinking in the context of their purchase strength. Paul: So, when you put all those things together from a capability perspective, I love it in terms of being data driven, in terms of understanding our consumer at a deeper and deeper level and being able to provide the best experience and the best service that we can on an ongoing basis. Stephanie: Got it. That makes sense. When you're implementing AI, first can I ask what platform are you using for that and what kind of surprises have you found when you implemented AI? What were the consumers doing that you would never have guessed before? Paul: Well it's a third party app. It's a bunch of data scientists who basically provide the service for us. They're conduit for the massive amount of data that we have. To your question of surprises or those correlations or what people have affinities for in terms of say, an add-on purchase that we would never think of, what prompts them to basically make that leap to make the purchase in the context of their journey through the site. Some of which are counterintuitive to some of our experience particularly for certain segment of our consumer base. Paul: It's just some of those interesting nuggets of information. The hard part of it is, there's so many correlations that we have to rank them and we basically test each correlation over a period of time to vet out the action. Paul: Our challenge at this point is basically getting into a much more test and react cycle on these correlations. Stephanie: That's really interesting. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: So, if you were to implement AI all over again or you had someone who does not have that on their site right now, what would you do maybe differently or if you were like we could go back and maybe I would change the way we did this or think about it differently when implementing it, what are some advice around that? Paul: Well what slowed us down was the notion of producing what I call hypothesis based on our prior knowledge. That tends to put you into silos of information and doesn't quite give you the breadth of correlations that AI can do for you. Paul: So again, it was all of my advice that hey, I think I really know this aspect of consumer behavior. I'm really interested in terms of their conversion activity when they do X, when they do Y. Paul: I wouldn't be so structured in those hypothesis going into it and probably a little more open minded in the context of looking at the correlations in a much different broader way. Stephanie: I love that. That's such a good reminder about the kind of biases you bring when looking at data or your consumers and why all that should be scraped from the beginning and just let the technology work for you? Paul: Absolutely, absolutely. Stephanie: In your industry I'm sure you probably get a lot of questions around this. But I'm thinking about all the regulations you have to deal with especially on a state level and when it comes to having Ecommerce be such a large part of your business, what does that look like behind the scenes when it comes to shipping or selling in certain states? Paul: Well, it's mostly an impediment from a retailer, particularly a major retailer perspective because to your point, there's a hodgepodge of regulation in the state. Even though hemp was 0.3%, THC less than 3% as federally allowed, depending on the nuisances of what is in California or Florida, et cetera, retailers may be averse to getting into ingestibles as opposed to topicals. Paul: So, back to our point, one of the reasons why we're industry leaders we've invested heavily in internal, external lobbyists that can guide different parties and factions, whether it be congress at the federal level or legislations at the state level or associations to evangelize the notion of CBD. Paul: One thing that people miss the point on, we welcome more defined regulation from the FDA because we feel that we're heads and shoulders above most of our competitors in the context of how we test, how safe our product is, how we document it and the like. Paul: So, it's an ongoing journey that hopefully more clarity will emerge at both the state and federal level whether it's with the FDA or with various state legislatures to make the retail sales of CBD more palatable. We do ship to all states in the Ecommerce perspective. Stephanie: Okay. Yeah, I like that idea around encouraging the FDA to look into it and implement regulations because you're like my product is so good, we should have the other products regulated and be held to a high standard as well because that is what can maybe hurt the industry as a whole, is having people making subpar products that aren't as high quality as Charlotte's Web. Paul: Yes. It's kind of adding to that, major business publications have basically stated and make the articles that CBD is here to stay. It's a multi-billion dollar business growing at a rapid rate and it's frankly grown so fast and it's a new industry that regulations haven't quite caught up with it. Stephanie: Yeah. I was reading a bit about demand surges especially during the pandemic right now. I think maybe it was your CEO who was mentioning like, oh we had a surge in demand for two weeks and then people kind of pulled back for a little bit. Stephanie: I was wondering how you guys are keeping up your inventory levels, how you manage that and then if you're changing anything going forward after seeing these surges of hopefully consumers that are going to stick around going forward? Paul: We've been really gratified and continuing to serve our customer because the majority of the customers consider our product to be essential for their wellbeing whether it's the type of tincture they use or the ointment or the like. So, it's been relatively stable for us. Stephanie: Okay. Paul: Now from an notary perspective, as a growing company our processes have become more sophisticated and over the past year we've implemented an NSLOP process or production planning process that I'm more familiar with in my CBG background to really dial into marrying strategic plans to budgets, to demand forecast and skew level and doing a relatively sophisticated job of planning product demand. Paul: Now the flip side of that, this industry is volatile in the context of demand in general because retailers, some are still adverse to taking the product, so it's hard to predict demand in that context. Paul: So, we place a little more emphasis on safety stock and agility in the context of the co-manufacturers we deal with and the like. Stephanie: Got it. What are some of the best practices you set up when it comes to setting up that forecasting process because I know you've had a lot, like you mentioned, a lot experience with that. What did you bring to Charlotte's Web that maybe they weren't doing before? Paul: Well, they had started it but I amplified from an Ecommerce perspective, a rigorous skew demand process that is three dimensional and that it adds up from top to bottom and extremely rigorous analytical process of continually revising those forecasts taking into account promotional cadence, taking into account day-to-day iterations of different campaigns. Paul: So, it's a fairly in-depth forecasting process in Ecommerce so that our accuracy is much higher. It's in the 90 percentile by skew in terms of our monthly demand, for example. Paul: One of the things I've learned in my past is that sometimes you have to take a leap of faith on a particular product because you don't know how high you can go. On the other hand, that's what safety stock is for. Stephanie: Got it. What does that look like when it comes to thinking of new products? How do you influence your decision behind that, like you were mentioning, behind the sales channels and the marketing channels that help you influence your ideas or thoughts behind it. What does that look like when it comes to new products? Paul: We do have outside data and with a caveat that it's such a rapidly growing industry that tends to change overtime. But I feel is obviously one of the standard firms we use in the context of a longer term view, in terms of product categories and growth and certain segments and the like and we use that as a baseline. Paul: Obviously we use our trend and my counterpart on the retail side and myself where basically experience marketers and sales people and that we have our own opinions in terms of how we correlate our thoughts on category growth versus what we're seeing in external data, for example, like Brightview. Paul: So, we listen very closely to our consumer in terms of what categories we're pushing. Stephanie: I was just going to say I'm sure you guys get a lot of customer feedback of what people want or what they're looking for. Paul: Yes we do. Stephanie: How do you grab all that and put it in a meaningful way because you probably know best. So, a lot of times consumers might ask for something and then not actually buy it or not really want it. Paul: This is true. They certainly vote with their dollars. But on the other hand, we have a pretty good customer care department that is in my peer bid where I've managed those sorts of departments in the past but this is in an interesting one, the group of individuals that the empathy, because of the nature of the product and the stories they hear and the people they try to help, the empathy they exhibit in terms of comments from customer is just outstanding. Paul: So, it's not only commercial, but to the extent that it's practical based on the information they have, they are advisors to the customers that call in and we have a high volume of calls that come in not necessarily about order standard things, but really what should I do? What about this product? Paul: The other aspect is we have a fairly rich library of customer reviews and the technology we use enables us to slice and dice some of the categories of the customer reviews and try to get to a gist of what's working versus not, whether it's from a product efficacy perspective or perhaps a defect of some sort. Paul: The dropper may not work exactly the way we wanted to and the like. So, we have multiple sources of information of customer contact. Stephanie: I think that's so key to be able to call in and actually talk to someone. That's the perfect way to develop trust is by having someone that you can actually get on a phone with and be like, "Okay, I don't know what to do now. Tell me exactly what I should be doing." Or same with reviews, being able to see someone who sounds like me reviewing the product just seems like a great way to develop trust all around. Paul: Absolutely. From a hiring perspective, I have lunch, a virtual lunch nowadays with every associate in my group at some point. Today I just, prior to this meeting, I had lunch with three of our associates just to kind of get a feeling of that. Paul: When it comes to our customer care associates, I've never met such a group of people that are truly empathetic to where they hear a story and they're crying on the phone with the consumer. They're doing everything. They have a wide latitude of actions they can take to help our customers more so than I'd had in the past in much larger companies. Paul: But they really have the right mindset, I think, as opposed to working in a call center. Stephanie: Yeah. That's so key and so important. Paul: Absolutely. Absolutely. Stephanie: So to shift a little bit into more of a marketing mindset, I wanted to hear a bit about how you guys are investing in different digital channels. What's working and what's not? Paul: Sure. Just the overview is that you may have seen our Trust The Earth campaign, which I loved, we started last fall that kind of instills what our brand messaging is. Basically, a lot of our marketing efforts go to that because again we're an emerging industry, we're maintaining our market lead, we want to convey a certain image, just a random stat based on our efforts here today. Paul: We have over 400 billion impressions from the various things we've done versus, I think our closest competitor from the stats that I've seen were about two billion and it dropped rapidly. So, marketing our digital efforts from a broad perspective are very effective and that shows in the context of where we are in organic search or educating the consumer, long ways to go. Paul: From a digital perspective obviously we're active in every social media component and we're very assertive in terms of educating our consumer through that channel, conveying our brand message. Paul: The industry is in a place right now, there are some restrictions in terms of how aggressive that you can market CBD on social media like on Facebook, for example, or Twitter. But that's not a real problem for me right now because for me we want to activate understanding and education and our brand story at this stage of our growth in the social media channels. Paul: So, a lot of our digital, aside from our paid media, which we're very good at I believe, a lot of our digital is focused on building our brand. Stephanie: How are you thinking about expanding into other markets? I think I saw that you were looking at going into a few other countries. How are you guys exploring that right now? Paul: Well, we're basically putting our markers out there. We have a staff of people who are very experienced internationally. I have a good deal of international experience as well from an Ecommerce perspective in retial. Paul: But one of the constraints still is the regulatory environment in that we won't sell in any country that obviously it's not allowed. There aren't too many countries that actually allow it. So, we're basically putting the building blocks in place if in case that would be our strategy to understand what the international market would mean to us. Paul: But it's still evolving because it's basically not allowed from a regulatory standpoint in quite a few countries. Stephanie: Got it. So now that we're kind of predicting our future a little bit, I'm wondering what kind of Ecommerce trends are you excited about or preparing for right now? Paul: Well, in general, like I have for a number of years it's the technology keeping up with my visions of personalization. In the perfect world I'm interacting real time with the individual consumer in the context of whether we're educating them or guiding their journey and the like and the technology is starting to catch up with that capability even at a company of our scale. Paul: So, that's the trend that has been there for a little while but the promise has been there, but the reality is starting to catch up. The other one I mentioned is using deep technology to a point within certain boundaries to understand our customers behavior and needs and wants and applying, point number one, the personalization with that. Stephanie: Yeah. That makes sense. Is there any new tech that you're experimenting with right now that you guys are loving? Paul: Well, I've experimented with in the past in terms of client side speed of devices. Every Ecommerce and you know all the tropes about how conversion is impacted by site speed and page loading and all those different things. Paul: But what I've been enamored of in the past couple of years is utilizing technology to tailor the experience on whatever the device our consumer has. You know there's somebody out there who's still on dial-up, if that still exists. Stephanie: You caught me Paul. Paul: With a new browser, right. It doesn't matter how efficient your site is or your servers are like, you have to tailor the experience, strip down the page load, the content, rejigger the Java script on the fly depending on that individual's device because as far as they're concerned, they may have a iPhone 5 that hasn't been updated in five years but they still like that experience. Stephanie: Yeah. I completely agree. That's really important because I think a lot of people assume that users are always on a newest and the latest and greatest. The one thing, yeah, I had, let's see, we're doing a study on I think Google maps users in India and the majority of them were on such outdated versions that they were never seeing updated streets or an update at all in maybe a year or two. Stephanie: I think it's just a good reminder that a lot of people are on older versions of things, not just in other countries but here too. Like you said, some people still use dial-up. Sowe have a quick lightning round coming up. But before that, I wanted to ask you one last question because I love your excitement towards the company and your energy behind it and I wanted to hear what is the best day in the office look like for you? Paul: The best day in the office, let me think about that for a moment. Stephanie: Yeah. Paul: As I mentioned before I'm usually willing to go every day. It's when I'm in the thick of it, I'm a great delegator I believe, and I think the people who work with and for me would say so. Paul: But I'm most happy when I'm in the thick of it, not being Mr. Executive and my people interacting with, like a peer to some degree, in terms of coming up with ideas, debating certain concepts, making things happens. Paul: It's still small enough company where many people I'll be a jack of all trades and that's where I've shined in my past of, okay, rolling the sleeves up and figuring it out and having to learn things. Paul: Many of my jobs have reflected that. So, that's when I'm happiest, when I'm learning something new. I think I've been told I'm really, really curious to a fault. I ask too many questions sometimes. Stephanie: I think that's a good thing. Paul: Yeah, I guess so. But that's what jazzes me, being in the thick of things, making things happen. Now having said that, as a C level executive you have certain programs and responsibilities to create a conducive environment for your people to work in to make them feel trusted, to stretch them to the extent of their capabilities giving them a vision. Paul: On the other hand, I've always been a believer of an executive being able to walk the talk having done something. Being able to do it, without actually doing it. That lends a certain amount of credibility in your interaction with your staff. So, I think that's very important. Back to your point, that's what makes me happy is just being in the thick of it. Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. I like that idea and I heard a ratio or it was a metric that an executive used called the say do ratio, and it was how much do you do what you're going to say you do, and that's how he gained the trust with a new company he was joining, was he actually tracked it. Paul: Well in a small company I think my first interaction with an associate at CW is riding up the elevator that Monday, they had heard of me, and they asked my name and they heard that I was a tech guy. I was really the Ecommerce business guy and tech guy and they asked me about an email problem they were having. Stephanie: A personal or a company one? Paul: A company one, yeah. Stephanie: Okay. Paul: "I can't quite get this to do this." It was a sales executive or a sales manager that we had. She asked me a question not knowing exactly what I did so I spent a half hour tracking it down and getting back to her. Paul: Later when she learned, you're in charge of Ecommerce and tech and all that stuff. To me, in a small company like ours, you have to be personal, you have to be willing to help anybody with anything and follow up on it and get it done as opposed to always delegating and there's a balance obviously in terms of the work balance. Paul: But you have to show that direct interest in everybody's issue in what they're doing. Stephanie: Yeah, I love that. That is such a good mindset to be in, like you said. Especially coming from a larger company where employees might be like, "Oh this guy is going to just delegate everything," like showing them you're willing to get your hands dirty and help them with their needs and stuff. It's also crucial. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: All right. Next we have the lightning round brought to you by our friends at Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Paul: Okay, lightning round it is. Stephanie: Are you ready? Paul: I'm ready. Stephanie: Roll up your sleeves, get ready. All right. Paul: They're already rolled up. Stephanie: First, I'll start with an easy one. Paul: Yes. Stephanie: What's up next on your Netflix or Hulu queue? What are you watching these days? Paul: On my Netflix queue let's see, geez I don't watch a lot of TV so you're going to stop me. I have 30 seconds left. Mostly about historical dramas. I've always wanted to watch The Crown, which everybody has watched. So, that's probably next on my queue. Stephanie: Cool. I haven't watched that yet. You'll have to let me know how it is. Paul: There you go. Stephanie: All right. What's up next on your travel destinations when you can travel again? Paul: Wow. When I can travel again? I'd like to go back to Tokyo. I've traveled so much in my career personally. One point I spent about 50% of my time overseas. Stephanie: Oh my gosh. Paul: But Tokyo because I was born in Tokyo. Stephanie: Cool. Paul: And an American descent. But when I traveled I was always able to get there and see my cousins three or four times a year. But it's been a while. That would be my first place to basically get back to my roots. Stephanie: That is a good one. I love Japan. Paul: Yeah. Stephanie: What app or piece of tech are you most enjoying right now? Paul: I'm most enjoying, this is an odd app, is a password saver. I won't say the name of it, but I've been searching for the perfect one because I'm all about convenience and security and all those things at the same time. So, it's an odd choice but I found the perfect passwords saver. Stephanie: Yeah. That is actually a very good piece of tech. We recently implemented that at the company not too long ago and I was like, "Wow, this saves a lot of time. Who knew?" Paul: Absolutely. Get rid of the sticky notes. Stephanie: Yeah. All right. If you were to create a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be? Paul: My first guest I'm thinking big. Stephanie: Go for it. Paul: Because I'm thinking really, really big because I'm enamored of her career. I was actually at her first rally, Elizabeth Warren. It tells you a little bit about politics and no offense. Stephanie: That's okay. Paul: But I was still in Boston, I went to her first rally and I was just enamored, I've always been enamored of her and not withstanding what happens in the near future. I would just be fascinated to talk to her about her career and how she made that mid career shift and the [inaudible] plan. Stephanie: That's cool. So, it would be politics focused or more human centric on what's important when it comes to you? Paul: More human centric with a tinge of politics because I am interested in politics. Elizabeth Warren would be it. Stephanie: We could get her on the show. I would make that happen for you. Paul: You could make that happen? Stephanie: Yeah. Paul: That would be so cool. Stephanie: I could do it. Elizabeth call us. We're ready for you. Paul: Absolutely. I remember I've actually seen her a few times, in the crowd obviously. The last time was at a protest at the Boston Common and she was quite compelling in her speech. Stephanie: Well that's great. I will have to see if I can find that online. Paul: Yeah. Stephanie: The last hard one which you've kind of already answered this, but I'll throw it anyways at your way. What one thing will have the biggest impact on Ecommerce in the next year? Paul: I think the biggest impact is the turmoil going around the big guys whether it's Facebook, Google, to some degree Amazon. What is the regulatory landscape, what is the antitrust landscape, how will they evolve, how monolithic will it be? Paul: I think I actually think about that quite often in terms of how do we enact with them, do businesses, make the leap into Amazon as a third party do, how do the algorithms evolve from a group perspective. How does privacy work? Paul: That really weighs on me in the context of thinking through how do those outside forces that are so monolithic in the tech industry impact Ecommerce. Stephanie: Well that's a big juicy one. We'll have to have a whole nother episode just to talk about your thoughts on that. Paul: Right, right. Stephanie: Well Paul it's been such a pleasure having you on this show. Like I said, I use Charlotte's Web. I've been around it for a while and I really appreciate you coming on and taking the time. Where can people find out more about you and Charlotte's Web? Paul: Well obviously our website, Charlotte'sWeb.com and I have a pretty fulsome linked in profile that shows you how haphazard my career has been but it's been a fun ride. Stephanie: Yeah. That's where I found out all about you. Well thanks so much for coming on. We'll have to have you back for round two in the future. It's been great. Paul: Absolutely enjoyed it. Thank you very much.

This conversation oozes openness, pride, love for family and friends, a strong sense of connection and control, and a major amount of zest for life!Meet Paul Gardiner, CEO of Mantis, a luxury group of hotels and eco-lodges and waterways. Son to the owner and founder, Adrian Gardiner. Paul, the conservationist, globe trotter, international / eco innovator, shares his life story with us in the most humble and down to earth way! Paul is part of an organisation so many people would just love to be apart of; wild life conservation, international boutique lodging, travel, innovation, the big five, and a continuous bubbling of new ideas, partnerships and ventures.Hear about Paul's business and training operation with with Bear Grylls, a fun telephone call from one of the Spice Girls, disvover what his dreams are, and appreciate even the most relatable story where he shares the experiences of his academic challenges at school. Please join us in conversation, share this interview with a friend, family member or colleague, and don't be shy to reach out to either of us should an idea present itself. The interview was made possibly by an introduction from John Winternitz. Who inspires you? Do you know someone who you think is inspiring? Please share their information with me! jen@inspirationalinterviews.com Stories change lives. Thanks Johnny! Want to contact Paul? You can reach Paul here: www.mantiscollection.com / www.ccfa.africa / www.pauljgardiner.com

Paul opens today’s episode talking about the short term & long term plans for Recovery Elevator: Paul is taking a break from the podcast and he will be focusing on the Recovery Elevator YouTube channel and creating meditations. 1-3 year plans: Recovery Elevator Retreat Center Long term goals: adding more Café RE groups Let’s all start putting thinking bigger and putting Big Energy out into the universe for Recovery Elevator.   [12:09] Paul welcomes Odette, the new voice of Recovery Elevator.   Odette’s last drink was 12/17/18. She is from San Diego, originally from Mexico and is married with two kids. They love the outdoors as a family. Odette enjoys learning about tea, puzzling and cooking. She often runs and uses her indoor bike for exercise.   [16:08] Paul: What have you been up to since Episode 231?   Odette is grateful for her recovery during this time of Covid-19. During her first year sober it’s all about relearning habits, restructuring life and setting new routines. Her year two has been about uncovering a lot of deeper seeded emotions and being more honest with herself.   [19:15] Paul: Can you cover what brought you to wanting to live an alcohol free life?   Drinking felt like a déjà vu of Odette’s previous addiction. (She is also in recovery from an eating disorder.) She had already walked this path and could her inner voice telling her that if she kept drinking the way she was, it would end badly. Her rock bottom was an emotional rock bottom. Odette has always felt like she wanted to be normal and because drinking is normalized in our culture she didn’t initially want to step away. Choosing to do the thing that is not considered normal would again put her in a spotlight. However, she knew internally this was the path she needed to take. For more on her story go listen to episode 128 & 231.   [23:00] They talk about Odette’s path with the podcast.   Odette likes relating to people. She will share when she hears her own story in others. She enjoys sharing books she’s reading and things she is listening to. Sharing a-ha moments.   [24:09] Paul: What are some topics you will cover moving forward?   Practical tips and recovery tools. Focusing on her recovery toolbelt and listening to what’s working for other people. Spiritual concepts and how those can be brought into our lives. Fun facts, history and what she can learn from others. Hearing from others and having the audience suggest topics.   [25:23] Paul: Same format?   For now, Odette plans to stay within the same format of an introduction and then having an interviewee. She loves talking and sharing and is really excited to take this forward, she is nervous at the same time. This is about a movement of living alcohol free and she wants to honor the path Paul has established.   [28:00] Paul: Talk about evoking Rule 22 on this journey.   Odette’s father was silly when raising his own family. She grew up with flawed parents, yet they showed her there was always a path of fun to be found. The life she’s living isn’t a dress rehearsal, it’s the only you she has and it’s too short to not have fun.   [30:06] Paul: Spanish or English?   English. But there may be an opportunity in the future for episodes in Spanish. If you want to share your story you can email odette@recoveryelevator.com   [32:32] Odette turns the tables and interviews Paul. Can you talk about your decision to step down?   Paul acknowledges that he needed to take a break. He thought he needed to start over again, instead of asking for help and delegating a lot of what he’s been doing. The community that he has created came to him with suggestions on how Recovery Elevator can keep moving forward. With some restructuring there is now a path.   [37:20] Odette: Overall how do you feel?   Paul says he feels incredible. That past year and a half has been the most spiritual he has ever experienced. And even more, the past 3 months he found his body cleansing itself of anything that didn’t need to be there.   [39:13] Odette: Tell us about some of the most fun experiences in your travels this past year.   Watching a woman connect with an elephant in Thailand. The elephant laid down on its side and the woman laid on top. Watching the elephant breathing and the two of them connecting was powerful. While in Australia someone from an AA meeting asked if he wanted to go feed the seagulls. Paul put aside his serious side and went to feed seagulls for an hour and a half.   [41:51] Odette: What’s flowing through your creative side right now?   Music has been creeping back into Paul’s life over the past 5 years. He’s been making meditation music. Also 3D meditations where you are walked through your future self, in the present moment. Focusing on the Recovery YouTube channel as well.   [46:20] Odette: Will we hear from you during your break?   Yes, Paul would love to pop in from time to time.   [52:30] Paul: Where do you think we can take this?   Odette says we can start small: have a podcast in Spanish for example. As large as: Traveling across the globe for service projects. A recovery center. She sees this growing in all directions. The opportunities are endless.    [55:08] Rapid Fire Round    What’s a lightbulb moment you’ve had on this journey? Odette: I can’t accept myself if I don’t start with myself. I can’t ask for help, if I’m not helping myself first Paul: We don’t fight an addiction that’s been trying to guide us.   What’s your favorite AF drink? Odette: all Tea, anything with ginger, grapefruit Bubly. Paul: Cold tonic with square ice cubes and tiny peach slices.   What’s on your bucket list in this AF life? Odette: to run a marathon and working in the recovery field. Paul: finding a new home base, follow the body.   Favorite recovery resources? Odette: Café RE, Eckart Tolle, Pema Chödrön, Glennon Doyle, friends and Marco Polo. Paul: You, Café RE, the listeners, meditation.   What parting piece of guidance can you give to listeners? Odette: What you resist, persists. Paul: Use the mind and locate the body.   This episode brought to you by: Gruvi, use this link and enter the promo code: Recovery Elevator for 15% off your order.   Upcoming events, retreats and courses: Ditching the Booze - The What, the Why and the How. We will be offering this again, starting 8/4/2020 and 11/3/20. It’s free for Café RE members. Not a Café Re member? Sign up here and use the code OPPORTUNITY for waive the set-up fee. You can find more information about our events    The book, Alcohol is SH!T, is out. Pick up your paperback copy on Amazon here! You can get the Audible version here!     Resources mentioned in this episode:  Connect with Cafe RE- Use the promo code OPPORTUNITY to waive the set-up fee.. Sobriety Tracker iTunes  Sobriety Tracker Android  Sober Selfies!- Send your Sober Selfie and your Success Story to  -info@recoveryelevator.com

Learn more about Microsoft's Commercial Marketplace: https://aka.ms/SellThroughMarketplace Paul Maher is the general manager of the Industry Experiences team at Microsoft, a group that helps partners drive technology innovation moving to the Microsoft Azure cloud and enabling online sales by using the Microsoft commercial marketplace as a new distribution model. As part of this discussion, we shared how a partnership with Microsoft, the use of the Azure cloud platform and services, and the commercial marketplace, empower Microsoft partners to innovate, while scaling and growing their business. Web: https://azure.com Twitter: @PaulJFMaher @Microsoft LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauljmaher/ Microsoft's Commercial Marketplace: https://aka.ms/SellThroughMarketplace Contact Avrohom: Web: https://asktheceo.biz Facebook: AvrohomGottheil Twitter: @avrohomg Instagram: @avrohomg INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS: [01:12] Cloud is a big buzzword nowadays, and everyone is jumping on the cloud bandwagon. However, the benefit of building solutions in the cloud is not just about technology innovation, but also the ROI from a business perspective. As someone who manages a team focused on industry, can you share some more information on the business ROI of building solutions in the cloud? [02:34] The driving force behind cloud. [02:47] Data is growing to 44 zettabytes by the end of 2020 and will grow to 163 zettabytes per year by 2025. [03:15] Analysts predict analytics to be a $200M global market by 2020. [03:31] 2020 will see $1T in IT spending related to cloud. [04:38] The business benefits of cloud: Cloud provides businesses with operational agility, quicker time to market, security, and reliability. [07:51] Cloud eliminates hardware refreshes and its associated maintenance costs. [08:25] Tell us about Microsoft’s online distribution model called the Commercial Marketplace. [09:15] B2B buyers prefer to gather their own information online and not interact with a sales rep. [10:22] The online marketplace is a distribution model for partners to see their software and services. [10:40] There are 2 storefronts. The first is called Azure Marketplace which is predominately suited for IT professionals looking for technology building blocks, like API’s, etc. [10:55] The second one is called Appsource, which is focused more on line of business software solutions. [14:55] Can you share a few stories that highlight how businesses have become extremely successful by partnering with Microsoft? [21:09] Covid-19 has impacted everyone, and we’re now living in what’s called the “new normal”. Can you share with us some of the work you’re doing to help partners succeed in today’s “remote only” world? [26:06] I’ve really enjoyed hearing the success stories about the Commercial Marketplace. For people considering joining the Microsoft Partnership, how transformative is the Commercial Marketplace in helping people scale and grow their businesses? [26:40] The Commercial Marketplace is as transformative for businesses as cloud is being from a technology perspective. [30:19] Where can people go to learn more about the Commercial Marketplace? Paul: They can go to https://azure.com and https://aka.ms/SellThroughMarketplace. [31:00] And how can people connect with you, personally. Paul: You can connect with me on Twitter at @PaulJFMaher and on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauljmaher/. [31:18] Do you have any parting words of wisdom to share with the audience? #AskTheCEO with Paul Maher

Connect with Praemo on the Azure Marketplace: https://bit.ly/2VqJg91 Paul Boris is the Executive Vice President and Chief Revenue Officer of Praemo, a company that fills the critical gap in industrial productivity by leveraging analytics to transform under-utilized data into operation-critical insights. As part of this discussion, we shared how their partnership with Microsoft, their use of Azure, and the Azure Marketplace have empowered them to scale and grow their business. Connect with Paul: Web: https://praemo.com/ Twitter: @PraemoAI @PaulBorisPraemo LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/praemo/ Microsoft partnership opportunities for manufacturing partners: mfgmarketplace@microsoft.com Contact Avrohom: Web: https://asktheceo.biz Facebook: AvrohomGottheil Twitter: @avrohomg Instagram: @avrohomg INTERVIEW HIGHLIGHTS: [00:48] IoT deployments have gone up, year over year, with a projected number of 20.4 billion devices installed by the end of this year. While many device manufacturers like to paint a picture of customers using only their products in the customer’s environment, the reality is that many manufacturing facilities have all kinds of IoT devices installed in there. As we know, one of the benefits of having an Industrial IoT solution is the ability to obtain actionable analytics from your devices. That is hard enough to attain on a single manufacturer’s platform, let alone a hodgepodge of hundreds of thousands of disparate devices across an industrial manufacturing facility. What are the challenges industrial operations run into when trying to convert IoT-collected data into useful insights? [01:48] Everyone is in a rush to drive more data and IoT devices into the operation. [01:59] The biggest challenge is that people don’t think they have data at all. The data they have is incomplete. [02:35] Another challenge in manufacturing is securely transferring data from IoT devices. With the prevalence of the cloud, this is no longer a major issue. [03:05] Businesses spend too much time normalizing the data versus getting things done. Then, when something changes, they have to start all over again. [04:24] Getting things done is better than trying to get things done perfectly. [05:23] What can manufacturing facilities do to overcome the challenge of generating useful insights from their IoT data? [05:50] Start with what you have and work your way up from there. [06:17] Don’t lose “good” on behalf of pursuing great. [06:29] Begin by creating some insights. Those insights will guide you to what the next best action is, and how you may drive your process forward. [08:50] Praemo recently launched a new offering on the Microsoft Azure marketplace, called Razor. Tell us about it and how it addresses some of the challenges we just discussed. [08:50] How manufacturing facilities can leverage AI and Machine Learning to optimize their operations. [11:48] Paul shares an analogy for the right way to leverage analytics from an airline’s in-flight emergency. [14:12] How would a manufacturing facility use your solution with Azure? [15:13] How can customers find out more about Razor, and procure it through the Azure Marketplace? [16:03] How has partnering with Microsoft helped Praemo scale and grow your business? Paul: Microsoft really understands how to work with small companies. [17:23] How can people find out more about Microsoft partnership opportunities for manufacturing partners? Paul: For more information, you can send an email to mfgmarketplace@microsoft.com and get started with the Microsoft Manufacturing group and Marketplace Rewards. [17:52] How do people connect with you? Paul: You can visit our website at https://praemo.com/. You can also follow us on Twitter at @PraemoAI or look us up on LinkedIn. My personal Twitter account is: @PaulBorisPraemo. [18:17] Do you have any parting words of wisdom that you’d like to share with the audience? #AskTheCEO with Paul Boris

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Paul: One interesting thing for me is that you know, over the recent years, we've had countless incidents where cattle and animal stock have become diseased, and they've had to be culled, you know; they've had to be killed to stop the disease. I think, you know, that's also a kind of a very important issue, why these animals are becoming so diseased. Is it a sign that we're doing something wrong? What do you think about that?Todd: Yeah. I mean, that's a scary one. I've lived in quite a few countries over the years, and every country that I've lived in has always been paranoid about the - mad cow disease. So, even in England, I lived in your country in England about seventeen years ago, and there were concerns about that first propping up. And then, you know, in Asia now, the Asian countries are worried about it.Paul: Hm.Todd: To be honest, I don't even give it any thought, you know. I mean, I hear about there's high levels of mercury in salmon. You shouldn't eat too much salmon. You have to worry about mad cow disease if you eat beef. I think you have to worry about other diseases with the chicken. You know, they had the bird flu a while ago. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to think, really.Paul: Yeah.Todd: I mean, it hasn't changed my eating patterns. Has it changed your eating patterns?Paul: Um, no, not particularly. I'd have to say that I do still eat meat. I had grilled chicken yesterday. And so, you know, like I said, it's very difficult to be or kind of morally high when you eat animals. One interesting thing is about animals that we select for captivity like you know if they're not cute or -Todd: Right.Paul: You know, it seems to be like it's only the cute animals in the world that we care about.Todd: Right.Paul: What about the ugly ones? And this kind of give you - it's a bit warped, isn't it? It's not really true to kind of, you know, representative of the animal kingdom.Todd: And there's definitely a bias towards animals, let's say, than versus insects. You don't hear about people like crusading against - to save insects.Paul: That's right, huh.Todd: Cockroaches, centipedes, spiders, whatever. And yet technically, that's a life form as well, right?Paul: Yeah. You know, insects, they - you know, within ecosystems they carry out very key roles, you know.Todd: Right.Paul: Yet, we're not fascinated with insects. In fact, most people have some sort of repulsion towards insects.Todd: Right.Paul: So yeah, again, it's kind of like we choose to kind of make this kind of Disneyland of animals of we have curiosity about, the cute ones and the ones that are able to do tricks and stuff. But you know, what about the other guys?Todd: Fair enough, man. Good point.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Paul: One interesting thing for me is that you know, over the recent years, we've had countless incidents where cattle and animal stock have become diseased, and they've had to be culled, you know; they've had to be killed to stop the disease. I think, you know, that's also a kind of a very important issue, why these animals are becoming so diseased. Is it a sign that we're doing something wrong? What do you think about that?Todd: Yeah. I mean, that's a scary one. I've lived in quite a few countries over the years, and every country that I've lived in has always been paranoid about the - mad cow disease. So, even in England, I lived in your country in England about seventeen years ago, and there were concerns about that first propping up. And then, you know, in Asia now, the Asian countries are worried about it.Paul: Hm.Todd: To be honest, I don't even give it any thought, you know. I mean, I hear about there's high levels of mercury in salmon. You shouldn't eat too much salmon. You have to worry about mad cow disease if you eat beef. I think you have to worry about other diseases with the chicken. You know, they had the bird flu a while ago. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to think, really.Paul: Yeah.Todd: I mean, it hasn't changed my eating patterns. Has it changed your eating patterns?Paul: Um, no, not particularly. I'd have to say that I do still eat meat. I had grilled chicken yesterday. And so, you know, like I said, it's very difficult to be or kind of morally high when you eat animals. One interesting thing is about animals that we select for captivity like you know if they're not cute or -Todd: Right.Paul: You know, it seems to be like it's only the cute animals in the world that we care about.Todd: Right.Paul: What about the ugly ones? And this kind of give you - it's a bit warped, isn't it? It's not really true to kind of, you know, representative of the animal kingdom.Todd: And there's definitely a bias towards animals, let's say, than versus insects. You don't hear about people like crusading against - to save insects.Paul: That's right, huh.Todd: Cockroaches, centipedes, spiders, whatever. And yet technically, that's a life form as well, right?Paul: Yeah. You know, insects, they - you know, within ecosystems they carry out very key roles, you know.Todd: Right.Paul: Yet, we're not fascinated with insects. In fact, most people have some sort of repulsion towards insects.Todd: Right.Paul: So yeah, again, it's kind of like we choose to kind of make this kind of Disneyland of animals of we have curiosity about, the cute ones and the ones that are able to do tricks and stuff. But you know, what about the other guys?Todd: Fair enough, man. Good point.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Paul: One interesting thing for me is that you know, over the recent years, we've had countless incidents where cattle and animal stock have become diseased, and they've had to be culled, you know; they've had to be killed to stop the disease. I think, you know, that's also a kind of a very important issue, why these animals are becoming so diseased. Is it a sign that we're doing something wrong? What do you think about that?Todd: Yeah. I mean, that's a scary one. I've lived in quite a few countries over the years, and every country that I've lived in has always been paranoid about the - mad cow disease. So, even in England, I lived in your country in England about seventeen years ago, and there were concerns about that first propping up. And then, you know, in Asia now, the Asian countries are worried about it.Paul: Hm.Todd: To be honest, I don't even give it any thought, you know. I mean, I hear about there's high levels of mercury in salmon. You shouldn't eat too much salmon. You have to worry about mad cow disease if you eat beef. I think you have to worry about other diseases with the chicken. You know, they had the bird flu a while ago. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to think, really.Paul: Yeah.Todd: I mean, it hasn't changed my eating patterns. Has it changed your eating patterns?Paul: Um, no, not particularly. I'd have to say that I do still eat meat. I had grilled chicken yesterday. And so, you know, like I said, it's very difficult to be or kind of morally high when you eat animals. One interesting thing is about animals that we select for captivity like you know if they're not cute or -Todd: Right.Paul: You know, it seems to be like it's only the cute animals in the world that we care about.Todd: Right.Paul: What about the ugly ones? And this kind of give you - it's a bit warped, isn't it? It's not really true to kind of, you know, representative of the animal kingdom.Todd: And there's definitely a bias towards animals, let's say, than versus insects. You don't hear about people like crusading against - to save insects.Paul: That's right, huh.Todd: Cockroaches, centipedes, spiders, whatever. And yet technically, that's a life form as well, right?Paul: Yeah. You know, insects, they - you know, within ecosystems they carry out very key roles, you know.Todd: Right.Paul: Yet, we're not fascinated with insects. In fact, most people have some sort of repulsion towards insects.Todd: Right.Paul: So yeah, again, it's kind of like we choose to kind of make this kind of Disneyland of animals of we have curiosity about, the cute ones and the ones that are able to do tricks and stuff. But you know, what about the other guys?Todd: Fair enough, man. Good point.

Finance Alternatives with Paul Boyd-Skinner Josh: Everyone out there in podcast land, we've got a great guest for you today. We've got Paul here from NoBNK, and he is a bit of a wizard when it comes to looking at a different way that you can do finance. This is especially critical in today's financial climate. So Paul, tell me a bit about what it is that you do with NoBNK. Learn more about finance alternatives at dorksdelivered.com.au Paul: So NoBNK is predominantly a non-bank business and commercial finance solutionist. I've been involved in nonbank lending for around about 16 years. So I've done all sorts of finance. I've done everything from home loans to commercial development, construction equipment, finance, factoring, all that sort of thing. And I'm proud to say that I've never ever put anybody in a loan with the bank.  Josh: High five! Paul: Look, you know, my adversity towards banks. Back in the 80s, back in the day when I got my first home, which was in late 1988, 89. You know we will be excited about getting our first home and interest rates at that time were around about 12% when we went and got our loan. The way it sort of worked back then was you go to the bank. And you're begged for a loan and they'd say, ‘Yes, yes, we'll give you a loan.’ And it was usually, you know, like about 70% or something that they give you, but they will do on a bit of a special, at the time for first home buyers where they give you 100% at interest only. We were living in a caravan when we first got married, so that was a pretty good option to get our own homes.  Josh: Absolutely! And upgrading it’s pretty low friction option, I guess. Paul: The only thing was the in-laws had to go as guarantors. So I now know that today is like a parental guarantor. Really wasn't heard of back then. So it was a little bit of a product for first home buyers. So we did that. We jumped in and we got the house and everything was going along nicely. And then we had to have the recession that we had to have. And our interest rates went from 12% to a 7%, 8.5% in the space of about six months. And just to give you an idea, the loan was $105,000. My repayment was $1,560 a month. Yep. And I was on $33,000 a year. So when you take tax out, 80% of my income was going towards paying my mortgage.  Josh: Yeah. Far out.  Paul: And it wasn't knocking 1 cent off it. Josh: Yeah. Just sitting there as interest only. And that is a scary spot to be in, because you're not sure if it's going to go up or down or left or right, or what it's going to do. Somersaults.  Paul: That happened with a lot of first home buyers over the years. Eventually, you know, it just got too heavy. I had to do up to 30 hours a week overtime to make ends meet, I was a fitter-machiner at the time,and you know, we ended up losing it. It's just the way it was. There were a lot of people losing their properties.  Josh: You weren't the anomaly. I don't think so. Paul: I sort of didn't understand what happened to me. I didn't like the banks at all when I worked it out. I've done a lot of study on the banks since then, or the banking system, and, you know, my thoughts on the global financial system is, I believe it's a world's biggest Ponzi scam. I've been open and honest about this for quite a long time, about how I feel about the banking system and I'm a bit like the disruptor.. I'm all about wanting to make the change so that it's a benefit for us, not so much just for them.  Josh: Yeah, well, I guess like I've done a bit of research into things such as the fractional reserve system and how that works. Paul: Does it work?  Josh: Well, how it works doesn't mean it works. No, you're exactly right. It's not a very good system, which is based on, now, nothing really. It's just based on numbers in a computer. It's not weighted against any real thing of intrinsic value. Paul: Well, have a think about that. So what a lot of people don't understand is that when you deposit money into a bank, you're actually lending them that money. It's a loan. You become an unsecured creditor, yet there is no security for that loan to that bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: It's a promise that they give you. We'll promise that we'll give you your money back.  Josh: After changing you bank fees or having it in there. Paul: Well, what a great deal for them, isn't it? They say, ‘Joshua, can you lend me your $100,000?’ Josh: Yeah, no problem at all.  Paul: Now would you want to say, ‘Oh, I need a contract with that?’  Josh: Well, normally you would. Yeah. You hope so. Paul: No. So what's going to happen, Joshua, on the bank is you're going to lend me $100,000. You're the bank, though. Not as a contract, but I do promise that I'll give you your money back and I'll dictate the terms. Right? So you might want 10% interest, but I'm happy to give you 1 ½. And you'll say, ‘Yep, I'm happy to do that.’  That's really what you've done when you put money in the bank, and just remember that one critical part. You're an unsecured creditor. Meaning that secure creditors, in the event of the bank collapse or whatever, secured credit is paid first and then unsecured credits. Josh: Yup. So in the situation where shit hits the fan hypothetically, we can all feel the recession, we can all hear it being spoken about, we can also feel some pressures around the place. If shit hits the fan and everyone starts frantically pulling money out of the bank, they've already planned for that, and that's what's been going through at the moment. Am I right?  Paul: Yeah, correct.  Josh: Tell me a bit about that for our listeners. Paul: Well, long story short is that there's three generations of savers, so you've got you've got your builders, you've got your boomers, and then you've got generation X, which is me. We've all been bought up as a generation of ‘get yourself a good job, save for retirement.’ It was all about saving money. Okay. The other thing too is that we had our children quite young, so you know, I've been married 31 years and I've got married to my wife she was 19, and I was 23. And, we had our children when she was 21. So we had our kids young, and if you think about my father, he was one of 17 children, so they had big families. So they were called boomers, you know. Josh: Huge families, but small houses.  Paul: Can you imagine having 17 children? And the house, there were three bedrooms, one bathroom, right?  Josh: One bathroom, 17 people. 17 children! 19 people. Paul: It's 28 years from youngest to oldest. You know what I mean? Like it's just a constant flow of, you know, at least seven, eight, nine people in a 3-bedroom house.  Josh: Should have bought a TV, so that there's something else to do.  Paul: Didn’t have TV back in the day, so what they did was they went out into the world and started the businesses and all that sort of thing and created quite a lot of wealth. And they stored that wealth in the bank because that's what they were told to do, you know? And they'll get great returns. So when I had those interest rates of 18% of my home, you would get 16% return on money that you had sitting in the bank and you know that's a fantastic return. But look what's happened over the years. You know, that was 30 years ago. Now we're down to zero negative rates in other countries. Japan has been at negative rates for 20 years.  Josh: How much money have they reprinted over there? Paul: Does anyone know why? Does anyone really know why? Or is it just like it's a bad economy and all this sort of stuff? So what makes the bad economy? When people stopped spending! If you're not buying things at the shop, then retail starts to drop off. I want to spend the money. So they're trying to force you to get your money out to spend. Banks don't make money out of people saving and make money out of people borrowing. So they don't want you having money sitting in the bank anymore. Their fractional reserve system, that doesn't matter anymore because they're reprinting money off loans. They make more money out of loans than they do early use saving. So the idea is to try to get that money out of the system and into risky investments or to just get you out there spending.  But when you have the majority of the world's population over 45 years old, that's when our spending curve drops right off. We're not out there buying. We're not down to supermarkets every week, three times a week, or whatever at the big shops. I'd be lucky to go to near Robina. I'd be lucky to go there once a month.  Josh: Yup. For those listeners that didn't hear you. You were saying the GFC is a light rain comparative to what could be happening. And I always say if it's been 30 years since a major recession and it doesn't hit right now, all that means is we're going to be getting a slightly bigger downfall before we're getting absolutely torrential rain in 7 or 11 years time from now. Would that be fair to say?  Paul: It could be any time. When you think about in Australia, we've had 28, 29 years without a recession. What has stopped that recession from happening? So back in the 90s when it happened, like 1990, 91, we had the recession we had to have, but they didn't do anything to try to stop it. You know, and as I said, the interest rates are at 18% so what they've done to stave it off every year, you know, because the next government that comes in needs to be leaving it in a good place. They don't want to be the government that caused the recession. Right.  Josh: The inevitable recession. Paul: The inevitable recession. And when you look at what the US in particular, they've had about seven or eight in that amount of time. Australia have had none. So every time that you look at the interest rate table and you look at different things that's happened, like the 9/11, the GFC, they've dropped rates 3% to 6% in order to stave off that recession. Probably the other recession that we had to have. And now we're getting down to zero. We will be at zero. We're 100% going to zero. Where do they go? Where do they go if we had some major problem, like a GFC or whatever again or a reset? How do they fix that? Josh: I don't know. How do they reset that? They can’t.  Paul: They can't! There was a paper written 18 months ago by the IMF, and in that paper, they said that they are working on models to make -4% to -5% feasible. Josh: All right. Paul: So try to get your head around that.  Josh: I get paid to have a house. Is that right?  Paul: That's already happening overseas.  Josh: I have read up about that. So that would mean that the more debt you've got. Go and buy a house now, ladies and gentlemen.  Paul: Why would they want to do that? Why would they want to get down to -4% to -5%? Josh: Well, I always say if they're getting down to those numbers, it's going to mean that people are going to be more wanting to get loans and get things like that.  Paul: I think it's about getting rid of cash because if they could get rid of cash and move it into a digital world, get rid of the physical cash, then they've got complete control. Josh: Well, see, the problem that I, and this is something that's come about over the last 10, 12 years. When cryptocurrency started coming around, if you're comparing apples with apples, and I'm not going to say that they're both exactly the same, obviously. But when you have a digital currency being compared to a digital currency, which is, if they're getting rid of all paper and all money becomes more frictionless to be able to move from the AUD to a Bitcoin or any of the other cryptocurrencies that are out there without it being is in the power of the banks or anyone else. How do you think they are going to overcome?  Paul: Well, I believe cryptocurrency is a red herring. I believe that it's just been set up for you to play with while they build their real money system. And there's a little bit of a showing of that last week. So in this IMF paper, what they actually said is that they would introduce e-money. They call it e-money. And basically what that means is that that item there is $100. They say, ‘Joshua, you know, that's $100 if you pay cash or $95 if you use e-money.’ And you go, ‘Well, I'll use e-money.’ So that's how they destroy cash. So they make it worth less than what it is. That's how they get rid of it.  There's a bank in Sweden, and the currency in Sweden is krona. The central bank in Sweden has announced the e-krona and they're in the second phase of testing e-krona. Josh: The timing of it's great.  Paul: And of course, it runs on blockchain because blockchain is a great technology. But yeah, it's a decentralized system? I don't believe so. I think it'll be a very centralised system, but it'll definitely be electronic or digital.  Josh: Yeah. Okay. So I guess the recession at this stage, you're saying, is inevitable. It's going to happen. Got a beautiful way to at least have people that are struggling a little bit in their business, whether that be because they need to have more finances bought into it. Or maybe you've got people on the other side of the coin that have liquid assets or liquid cash where they want to be able to use that and invest into something that's going to be giving them a bit of a better return without having to put it into the big nasty banks. How do you go about? How does NoBNK work?  Paul: So the way that NoBNK came around is that many years ago, I looked at many of the managed funds and different places like that where they would collapse. There were quite a few here on the Gold Coast where a lot of those managed funds collapsed and the person who lost that was the investor every single time.  And it's only because the managed funds, number one, they think like a bank. And number two, they take their fees and everything out first. I'm not saying that all managed funds are like this. I'm just saying that when you get that real control freak at the helm, that's when there's a problem. So I designed a system where there is no control freak. So it's all about putting the control, the choices, the security back in the hands of the investor. And the number one thing is the trust. You know, because I think that we put a lot of trust in these organisations, in the corporate side, the banks and a lot of these managed funds. That's what we were told. You know, this is what you do. And I think they’ve broken our trust. I think they've broken our trust big time. You know?  The way that NoBNK is set up is that we make our number one product service. You know, everybody wants service. Well, the banking model can't give you service. It's impossible because of the way that their pecking order is designed. So their pecking order is profits first, shareholders second, then clients, then employees, that's the pecking order. They can't give you service. They don't make money out of service.  We're not about that. We're about, if we create that service for you, where you're having a great experience and you feel that you've got the trust and you will have to trust because what I say to people is, who's the one person that you trust more than anybody else in the world? To make the right finance decision for you. It's yourself, right? You trust yourself more than anybody else. So why are we giving that away? Why are we giving that trust away to the banks? So what we've done with this platform is that we're going to make you the bank.  Josh: Okay.  Paul: If I want to borrow money from you, why do I have to go to a bank to do that? You put your money in the bank and then I go and borrow the money from the bank. That's your money that's in the bank. That's not theirs. So why not just borrow directly from you? So the platform is set up where we facilitate accurate information between somebody who wants to borrow money and someone who wants to lend it. So the terms are all worked out, and if the borrower is happy to go, and the lender is happy to go, we just put those two together. That's all we do. And they've paid monthly returns in events on their investment. I don't know how many other investments you get paid monthly in advance, and it's direct in the security goes into the investor's name. Josh: Okay. So let's say I'm new to the idea and I'm going, ‘Okay. Yeah. Stuff the banks. They've stuffed me over too many times.’ Without saying the bank that I'm with, I can see the interest rates that I could be getting just changing to another bank, I could be saving $11,000 a year in mortgage repayments, and I had to look and I thought, ‘Ah, it's too hard.’ How hard is it? Or how would I go about moving a lot like a house?  Paul: The area that we're not going after at the moment is the consumer market. It's very regulated. There are a lot of rules around that market. We'll get to that. We'll get to that market. But the area that we want to look after, first of all, is the business and commercial arena. I think that if you look after the business side of things first and the business owner, they're gonna have to worry about their day-to-day things rather than worrying about when the next dollars, you know, how they're gonna pay their bills, if the bank's going to foreclose on them and the house is tied to that loan and all that sort of stuff.  So we look at things a lot more commercially and it won't always need to be property initially. There’s a lot of lending that happens out there that a lot of people don't know about, where you might have some text it or you need to, you want to jump on an opportunity pretty quickly and all this sort of stuff. So they use private, short-term lending and that short-term lending could be a loan that's anything from 3 months to 3 years. It’s not a 30-year loan and all that sort of stuff, and it's just about jumping onto an opportunity or it could be getting out of trouble. You know, ‘We're in a bit of trouble over here. We need to pay back the bank and get some cash flow into our business as well so that we can stay afloat.’ So really, we're more targeting that area there at first, which is perfect. Yeah. Well, I think it's an area that's very under-serviced.  And the other area that we're targeting, and this, as I said before, is those people all around the world, those high net worth investors all around the world that's got money sitting in the bank and it's getting them no return or very low returns. We want you to be able to negotiate the term between what sort of return you want. So really you get to choose the return you want. And the client gets to choose whether to accept it or not.  The way this platform is designed is that as an investor, we don't touch your money. So we never touch your money. We're not a managed fund. It's not a pooled investment. It's not a, you know, sort of property trust. It's not a contributory fund, none of that sort of stuff.  It's just one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor, one loan, one investor. So someone wants to borrow $1 million, the investor's gonna put up the whole $1 million, and we're just going to put those two directly. Josh: So it sounds like obviously it's a lot of advantages for both parties in regards to the returns that they're going to be getting, as well as the rates that they're going to be paying because you're cutting out the bank in the middle. What would be some of the, I guess, risks? Or does it take the same amount of time to process through if you wanted to get an equipment finance loan for $50,000 for a new digital printer or something like that. Paul: The process is quick, it all happens within 24 to 48 hours. You'll know how many people So as a borrower, you'll know how many people are interested in doing your loan and you'll get offered the lowest interest rate that they offer.  Josh: Is this a global thing or is this just Australia?  Paul: This will be a global thing. Initially, it's Australia, but we do want to take it globally because the problems that started in the world, the reason why I've talked a lot about Japan is because the reason why they've already experienced all this, what we're going through, is they’re the oldest population in the world, you know? So it all adds up to me. Their ages crossed over and over that 45-year mark, they're average age crossed over 15 or 20 years ago. So it comes in a lot sooner than what it has to us.  Josh: And their workforce is diminishing because of that. Paul: That's exactly right. And the wages aren't going up. All the problems that we're starting to have here in Australia, you know, property prices are going through the roof, but wages aren't going up. So the next step is how does somebody that's on 60 grand a year buy a million dollar property in Sydney? Well, I'll have to have a 70-year mortgage just like they have in Japan. You can see it. You're watching the pattern globally. It's happening all through Europe. You know, there are 30 countries in the Eurozone now that are on zero and negative rates and the lowest is -0.75.  Josh: All right. That's nuts. It's nuts when you think about it, and as you were saying, like it was only 30 years ago, we had the last recession, and so for Japan to be at the position...  Paul: 20% 30 years ago. Now the -0.5.  Josh: And that all comes down to the workforce and the economy, and that's where we're, as you said, we're heading towards the potential issue here.  If someone wants to jump in and jump onto NoBNK or hear any more information, how do they go about sort of doing that? Paul: The good thing about us is we can look after you no matter where you are in Australia and then as I said, that eventually, New Zealand will be pretty quick, but then we'll be going into places like the UK and America and things like that as well. This is something that can go global and that's the whole idea is that we're about like, you know, if you're going to disrupt your models and make it worthwhile.  Josh: Absolutely. If you’re going to kick the big in the head you may as well do it globally.  Paul: They had their place and as I said, we're not going to manage, we're not going to take your money and just go and do a hope and pray thing like many do. Your money stays in the bank under your control, so nothing changes, right? The only thing that changes is you get the opportunity to be able to have a crack at one of these deals and become the bank.  And your worst case scenario is you're sitting there with a security in your name and you're getting a return. Whereas what's your security in the bank? There isn't any, but if you don't win the deal, because it's going to be like an auction type system where you make a bid on what sort of return you want, then nothing's changed in your life. You still get your money sitting in the bank, you know? No one's touching it. No one's taking any fees off you or any of that sort of thing.  We're all about mitigating risks. We've got to mitigate the risk for the borrower, the lender, and for ourselves. So it's about everybody having this happy equilibrium, you know? That's how we're going to structure this thing.  We've got a whole website there. It’s NoBNK.com.au. And the reason why we got B N K is because ASIC won't let us use the word ‘bank’. It's a swear word. So we call ourselves NoBNK and we advertise as NoBNK does that, which has a double meaning. NoBNK does that. Josh: Perfect. As an investor and a borrower, what's the starting and ending amounts you can go for.  Paul: Because we're starting with the property component of it first of all, the minimum line would probably be around the $50,000 mark. This is why we're up to sophisticated investors. So this is some for your institutional versus, or you know, like your mum and dad's and things like that. You must be a high net worth. You know, I know people out there, they have tens of millions just sitting in the bank.  Josh: Yep.  Paul: Globally. So you might have somebody, you might have a deal here in Australia. There might be somebody in Japan that makes a bid on the deal and all of a sudden they're getting a return of 4%, 5%, 6%, 7%, whatever it is, whatever that agreed return is, where they're getting nothing over there, but they've actually got to pay to put their money in the bank over there. So it's a really good outcome because, you know, we just let the market set itself dynamically. There is no ‘ring Paul up and say, “Mate, what interest rate can I get?”’ There's none of that anymore. It's just like, well, it's whatever anyone's prepared to bid and whatever you're prepared to pay. Josh: Yep. So it's win-win. Paul: And look, there's rules for the investors. I've got a pretty good record. We're doing this sort of thing.  Josh: You've been doing it for more than 10 years?  Paul: Yeah, about 10, about 12 years now. I've been doing these sorts of loans for some high net worth. And in that amount of time, we've had no foreclosures and the investors haven’t lost money in the capital. And it's just about managing it.  Josh: That's a good run.  Paul: Yeah. It's just about managing. You don't smash people when they're down. You help them. You don't have to be all hard about it. You know, you're a day late or two days late with your payment. It's about managing it. Nobody gets hurt. You know what I mean?  Josh: So how do you guys come into it? Do they just clip the ticket on the way through?  Paul: You have a gross line amount. You have a net loan amount. You got to add that first month's interest. There's lawyers involved, there's all sorts of things, which for the investors, it's great for them. It's their lawyer. So it's a lawyer of their choice. And you know, usually there's brokers involved in all the research, so there's nothing under the table. So there's no hidden fees and charges and all that sort of stuff. In our letter of offer, it's like, say for example, you want half a million dollars and it might cost $520,000 you know, like when you add everything up. So you say, okay, so your gross loan amount is 520, that's what it is. You'll see all the costs that are involved, all the rest of it, and you get the choice to say, ‘Yeah. I'm happy with that.’ ‘Well, no, thank you.’  Josh: Fair enough. Cool. Cool, cool, cool. I think there's going to be a big help for a lot of people that are feeling a bit of pressure, whether that'd be as an investor or they're looking potentially down the barrel of a gun for a business. They might not be going as well as it was. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Paul: There's lots of businesses out there that need lots of help in different ways. It's not just about, you know, finance and properties and all that sort of stuff. It's just about knowing that there are people out there that, you know, we'll have a chat about it first. I mean, whether you've been rejected by a bank, don't want to go to their bank or can't go to a bank, that's why we're here. So pretty well covers everybody. When you do those things, we tell them, you don't go to the bank, come to NoBNK.  Josh: I guess back in the day, there was like no-doc loans and things like this. This is from a business owner's perspective. Paul: It's a very, very simple process. So you know, the information that we asked from you is not onerous. It's really quite simple. It's a very quick application process. This platform that we've built that we'll be releasing in the next couple of weeks, it'll be automated. It's just a quick, you know, fill in the application process type of thing and you'll get SMS and emails and all that sort of stuff, and then so will the investors and they'll be able to start bidding on your deals straight away.  Josh: Sweet.  Paul: It's a little bit of a game changer, come to the market.  Josh: Absolutely. Yeah.  Paul: That's what it's about, isn't it? It's about changing things up and seeing if we can do it better and make a change, you know, a different change for the better for once rather than just doing the same as everybody else.  Josh: Really enjoyed talking to you and is there anything else you'd like to add before we jump off? Paul: No, mate, I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. I'd like to wish everybody out there that, you know, there is hope. It costs you nothing to apply with us or to have a chat with us or anything like that. So, you know, your people wanting to, you know, they're welcome to have a chat anytime they like. Josh: Cool. Only advantages and as I said, a very welcome time for me to be talking to you about this sort of stuff for a lot of people out there.  Paul: Appreciate it, mate. Thank you very much.  Josh: If you have any questions and bits and pieces, we'll put a link down to NoBNK as well as Paul's details. If you've enjoyed this episode, jump across to iTunes, leave us a review, give us some love and stay good. 

Are you a property manager who loves or hates creating systems by leveraging technology? Do you enjoy or dislike doing inspections, dealing with tenant issues, and handling renewals? Have you considered putting processes and people in place to automate your business? Today, I am talking to Paul Kankowski, a real estate investor with more than 200 doors. Paul increased systems to build a better property management business. He describes how he created computer-based processes for his employees to do everything his way, the same way, the right way. You’ll Learn... [03:10] One-man Show: Learn how to get the job done right and then do what you want. [04:41] Paul prefers to create processes and systems to solve problems. [05:29] No Secret Sauce: NARPM speaker/expert on automated processes/systems.  [07:29] Paradise is Possible: People make more money, if they have good systems. [08:39] Fines: Do I charge? Do I not charge? Decision made by process, not employee.  [09:25] Everything that doesn't have a process, Paul deals with until he creates one. [10:52] Manuals and How To Videos: From simple checklists to 195+ steps to follow.  [13:37] First Process: Tackle the one that's losing you the most money. [16:40] Make or Break and Placing Blame: Mistakes are made by processes or people.  [25:40] People as Process: Property management will never be completely automated. [29:30] Retention vs. Growth: Give good customer service and don't let doors leave.  [36:20] Stay in Your Space: Identify what energizes or drains you, then offload them.  Tweetables Mistakes are made when processes are broken or employees skip steps. Be involved in your systems. Know how they're running for your business to run right. Processes are not a secret sauce that everyone has to have a different one.  Why people like systems: They make more money, if they have a good system. Resources PM Systems Conference (Aug. 10-13, 2020, in Las Vegas) AppFolio Asana Process Street Podio Wolfgang Croskey Mark Cunningham Landlord Source Property Meld DGS 80: Automating Your Business with Process Street with Vinay Patankar  DGS 76: Outsourcing Rules for Small, Medium and Large Companies with Todd Breen of VirtuallyinCredible DGS 69: HireSmart Virtual Assistants with Anne Lackey DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowLive DoorGrow Website Score Quiz DoorGrow Cold Leads Calculator Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow Hackers, to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today I am hanging out with Paul Kankowski. Welcome to the show, Paul. I'm excited to have you on. I told you in the green room that I was really excited to have you because this is a topic I think everybody would be interested in. Everybody loves this idea of creating systems in the property management business, figuring out how to leverage technology. Before we get into this topic, qualify yourself. Tell everybody about you. You’ve done some really cool things in the property management space connected to this. Introduce yourself. Pau: Hi, my name is Paul Kankowski. I'm out here in Temecula, California, this is Southern California. I have over 200 doors right now. We're not huge, but we have increased our systems in order to make ourselves better. I actually started in education. I was a school principal and a math teacher for 18 years, and I was a real estate investor. I've been a real estate investor for over 20 years. I bought a lot of properties and when the crash happened, I became a flipper. I bought a lot of rental properties and people were doing a really crappy job in my area. Now I actually know a lot of property managers in my area, but back then I didn't. At the time, I just didn't have anyone that could do the job right, so I started taking some NARPM classes and I started using that to manage my own properties. I only cared about managing my own properties and family for the first two or three years, and then I went into that to turn it into a business. Since I've turned into a business, now, I don't want to manage everyday things. I don't want to be doing inspections. I don't want to be doing all the stuff that you have to do as a one-person show. We have eight employees and I've created processes and systems so that they do everything that is done by computer and everything in the same way, I can work on higher-level things, more networking, and doing stuff that is more enjoyable in the industry. Jason: More enjoyable for you, right? Because some entrepreneurs hate that stuff. Paul: Yes. More enjoyable, in the sense, that I don't like doing inspections. I don't do them anymore. I don't like dealing with some tenant issues. I don't like dealing with renewals, but I like everything being done my way. I like it being done well. I like it to be done the same type every way. Before (as you know) I have to get my hands on everything to make sure things are being done, so we are giving the best customer service. Now, we have systems in place, so I know that things are being done the way we state it and ought to just hope that my employees are doing it the right way. Jason: Right. What's cool about Paul, for those watching, is Paul's built this business around himself and what he wants to spend his time doing, versus what most business owners think they should or have to do. You get to do things you enjoy doing on a daily basis, which really is different for every single entrepreneur. Paul: Yeah, it's great. I like doing the processes and systems are working on them, but I can't. I was a math teacher for 12 years, so systems and stuff are like math problems. If you have a problem, how are you going to solve it and how do you solve them the same way each time? It also (I think) a great way for people to hire people that can do it for them, to get it done right, but you have to be involved in your systems. I don't care if you don't like the math portion of it. It's just very important that you know how they're running so that your business will run right. Jason: Right. You can't just stick your head in the sand and throw it at somebody and expect that it's going to be done well. Paul: I agree. Jason: Let's take a step back. Everybody listening to this, I want to point this out, too. You’ve run some conferences related to automation and technology. You've got some things going related to that, you didn't mention that. You're an expert at this. You’ve spoken at NARPM, the Broker-Owner, I think, related to this, or the national conference or something like that. Paul: I spoke at the national conference in San Diego. It was something similar to this. I have had four conferences on systems and I have a systems conference. My next one's in August, that will be our 5th one. This has been really good. It's a small conference, they only allow 50 property managers to go do it. It's a workshop, not a conference, I always like to say, because it's not a bunch of speakers speaking. It's a lot of time you getting down and dirty, actually doing the processes, having fun with property managers, and really getting in conversations. “How is your move out? What's your move out different?” Sitting there and discussing with other people what they're doing and then creating the process on people that have already paved the path to do good process. I find that when you sit there and you work with five or six other people, you learn where your inefficiencies are, what's great about someone else's processes that you can copy. Processes are not this secret sauce that everyone has to have a different one. You can take a good process and you can adapt it to your business. That's what our workshops are about. It's a really great time. They usually sell out in about three to four weeks. I usually have a long waiting list afterward, just because we do keep it small. I don't want to get so big where people can't actually sit and have a conversation with each other. Jason: I like the idea. Let's talk about your business. Let's paint a picture of what's possible or what you see other business owners do that had been in these conferences, some of the people that are plugged in, they've got technology, they're leveraging it. I want to paint a picture of paradise or a possibility for those that are listening because I think a lot of people listening are going, “It sounds so complicated. It's probably not possible. I'm sure what I'm doing is nearly just as good.” What are you noticing in your own business? Maybe in terms of margins, systemization, and staff? Paul: This is the biggest thing and this is why people like systems. You'll make more money if you have a good system. I'll look at HOA. HOA was an issue a year ago. We tackled; we were not doing as good of a job. We were handling every HOA issue as its own individual thing. We weren't getting emails to owners. We were dealing with the HOAs, but we weren't letting the owners know, “Hey, we're dealing with it every week.” I lost a big owner because they thought we weren't dealing with the HOA issue, even though we were, but I lost it because of perception. The perception was they were getting email weekly, so we create a process where the owners get updated every week on the condition of the HOA when the things are going to be resolved. The other things that would make more money, first off, we have owners that are happy. Second, the fines that we’re giving to tenants, they were happening 100% of the time. When it’s not in a set process, a lot of times I'm like, “I'm not going to charge that because it wasn't that big a deal. He left the trash can out.” Well no, it is a big deal and it's a $25 charge. You're going to get a charge no matter what now because it's in the steps. The employee who's doing it doesn't have to make that decision, “Do I charge? Do I not charge? Is this one of those things?” That's a step that might have been missed. We've noticed our revenue—when we have processes—doing really well, it goes up dramatically. I would say HOA fines, we might have a couple of $100 in HOA fines the year before and now, it's thousands of dollars. That's a huge difference because we were not being consistent on the fine. That's a huge thing about the process. The other thing is everything that doesn't have a process, I have to deal with. Here's one that we have not created yet, owners leaving us, and we have to exit them. That’s the next process we’re making in the next two months. Right now, when an owner leaves, I have to do all the work because I don't have a process. I'm afraid that my employees might do it their way. They might make a mistake. They might not take them out of the property mill. I'm going to be paying $2 a month for that door that’s not even active because it's not been deactivated or up fully own and that it's $1.50 a month. All these little things that you think, “It's only $2, only $1.50.” You have 20 doors that you're being charged $2 a month, that’s $40. Over a year, you're looking at $480. You have to have good processes so you don't skip minor steps. You say, “Well, I don’t skip.” If it's not written down, you make mistakes. You might not make mistakes but your employees are going to. They're not bleeding the business day-to-day that they're not going to sleep thinking about the business like you are as the property owner. If you write it down and you have every detail there, not only you're going to make more money, you're also not going to lose money from having money just shot through. Jason: Okay. You were just talking about a process that you haven't yet created, that you're working on right now. When you get into this process of creating a new process, how involved are these? Are these like insane, and they have lots of different steps? You're thinking of every nuance and every detail or are a lot of your processes simple? Paul: When I started, they were really simple. When I started, I was Asana, it was a checklist. It was a checklist and everything was the same and it was fine. It was better than nothing, but it wasn't good. Now, my utilities processes are 195 steps. Jason: Your utilities process. Paul: Are 195 steps. When someone does utility, it's about eight steps for them to finish it because one of the things is every utility is listed and so you put SDG&E, or you put Edison, a different step is going to come up for every single utility. It asks you questions and then Neil, my person has to go through 195 steps, they go through nine steps. They go through SDG&E, then it tells them the phone number to call, who they have to talk to. Sometimes, one of our processes for a little water company we deal with it says, “Talk to Susan,” because Susan's the one in the office that they have to talk to in order to pay this bill because this is [...] water district, and they're just kind of backward, I believe that's the one. It says every detail. There are videos there. If I get a new person on, they can watch a video and the video shows them step-by-step how we do, how we put the invoice in AppFolio, how we do everything. It's a training tool for my new employees. I just had a new employee last week. The first thing we tell them is, “You need to go through Process Street. You need to watch these processes and you need to go through this 20 times,” and then I want you to try it, without me even instructing you and see if you know how to do the process. I'm going to watch you do it. If you know how to do it, then I created a good process. If you watch these videos and go through it 20 times and you still don't have a clue how to do your job, then my process isn't good enough at this stage I'm at right now. You can be as small as just wanting a checklist and having people skip steps, which is fine, but there's more chance for mistakes to being so detailed that it's a training manual for every person that comes on. Jason: I love it. For those listening, you're currently using Process Street. We had Process Street founder, CEO on the show before. It was a great episode. Make sure you go back and listen to that episode where we're talking about Process Street. We use it internally here at DoorGrow. I think it's a great software. Now, if somebody is looking to get started with this, or they're showing up at your conference for the first time, they're one of these 50 people, they've got the deer in the headlights, eyeballs going on, and they're like looking around, they're feeling really inseminated, what is the first process that usually people should tackle? Paul: The one that's losing you the most money. The one that's a hemorrhage point. It’s usually either moving, leasing, those are usually two of the big ones, move out. It's funny, right now, we've changed our compass around a little bit. I'm doing a pre-session on the first day, so we're doing it for four hours, where I'm going to work with a small group (10 people), and we're going to break down your process and build it together for the first four hours. You're right, I have people at all stages of my conference now, I have people that have been to every single one of mine. This August, it will be their 5th time going and I have people that's their first time going. We want to give the difference between those that are first-timers and those that have been to four of them. When I started this systems conference two years ago, it was two years ago last September, I started it because I thought my processes sucked. I hired a speaker to come and speak to us, and he was pretty expensive. This is how this conference has started. I put on Facebook, “Anybody wants to share on the speaker cost, we’ll just meet in Vegas.” We had 10-12 companies there and it just started because 12 of us got together, we split the cost of the speaker, and we went together and hung out. We had such a great time, we found that it was so great just talking with other property managers, that we kind of tweaked it a little bit, and then we’re like, “Okay, we are kind of the speakers because we are in the industry. We know what each other needs.” Now it's all about helping each other. If you go to this, you're going to the four hours (in the beginning where you're going to get that), and then just go and sit with other property managers, see what they're doing, write little notes, and get your checklist. Start as basic as you can. I have one guy that will only use Google. Everything is Google sheets, but he has his steps written down and it works for him. Other people are Asana, other people Process Street. Other people like Wolfgang Croskey, have Podio everything automated. All his emails are sent automatically. Everybody that goes, they're using different software, they're using different things, but their whole goal is to help each other and to make it so that your process will be good. Jason: Yeah. I would imagine one of the best things about being there, talking with other people, seeing and hearing how they do things, you're just going to get ideas, and there's a lot of ways to implement that idea. A process is software-agnostic in general. It's a process. You need certain steps to be done, it can be done by humans, it could be done by technology like Podio, it could be done by whatever, but it needs to be done. You need to know what the vision is so that you can create it. Sometimes, this just comes from getting ideas from other people. “Oh my gosh, that’s a great idea,” and you're doing that in your business. “We should do that too,” and then, “How can we do that with the tools and resources that we're currently using?” Paul: Jason, I would say, to start a good process, the first thing you do is you get every employee that's working on a process on the table. You get a big white sheet of paper and you write down, “What are you doing?” This is our creation of the process. Our process is to get them right. It’ll take about two months. It sounds like a long time, but it's really not because of the process we do to get our processes. We start out by getting all the people involved in the process, and we write down, “What steps are you doing? What do you do?” We don't skip anything. After we get all of the steps down, I send it to someone in my office named David who will sit there and put it into a Process Street with all the bells and whistles, all the changes, and when this is going to happen. We sit there, and we go through it, and I try to break it. I go through every single step and I see where it ran into a problem. That's the very first month. I only work for an hour here and an hour there. I work on for an hour and say, “Hey, this is tweaked,” and “Are we clear?” He fixes that. I look at it and say, “Okay, this is good.” After that, we give it to the person who’s actually going to be doing the job. Their job for the first month is to try to find where the process doesn't work and to either, doing the process to be like, “Oh my gosh, we forgot to put the charge into the tenant,” or whatever it is. If they find something wrong with the process, then I'm going to praise them beyond belief because they broke my process. Breaking my process is a good thing. Throughout the entire year or whenever we have a process, whenever a problem occurs in my company—an HOA gets missed, and we have some major issues with some HOA—we look through the process, and we say, Was it a mistake by the employee, or the mistake by the process?” If it’s a mistake by the process, we fix the process right then, right there and get it right again. If the mistake is by the employee, we show them, “Look here are the steps, what happened? Why did you skip it?” “Oh, I'm sorry. I just skipped this step,” now they know that it was them. It's really easy. In the past when you just have, “ Hey, here's what you do with an employee, you're always blaming the employee,” a lot of times, it is not the employee’s fault, it's your process. Jason: Yeah, that makes sense. A broken process ensures you're going to have a bad employee a lot of times. Paul: I agree. Jason: I'm going to recap, this is what I wrote down. It takes about two months. You're going to first document it, sit down as a team, then you're going to build it, then you're going to break it, then you're going to fix it, then you're going to test it. It sounds like over time, you're going to optimize it based on what feedback you're getting from your team, and what feedback you're getting from clients, tenants, owners, and problems that are coming out. Paul: Exactly and that process is never done because the second something goes wrong in our company, you look at what the process is. If you have a move-in and the move-in is a disaster, it's either the employee or process, and you have to check and find out. It's so easy when you have a good process, to find out where the breakdown occurred. Jason: I think this is an interesting thing to point out because I get a lot of people that come to me, and they're like, “I need the perfect magic owner's manual. Where can I buy that?” or “I need this,” and I tell them, “Every single property management business is so unique, so different. How you want things done is going to be different and no business is ever perfect,” it's never just done. I think a lot of property managers think, “Well, I just need this one thing that I could just strap onto my business and it'll finally be perfect, it’ll finally be done, and I won't have to ever mess with it again.” I think that's just not reality. You’ve got things really well dialed in and you're still working on stuff. Paul: I bought multiple different companies through NARPM that I'm glad I bought them because I did look at them. I can tell you right now, there are some things I bought that I never looked at, we never really did, and it says, “Blank your property manager company name,” it is very, very detailed and stuff like that, but until you sit down, if you buy something, it gives you a basis to start working on your thing, don't think, “Oh, I spent $1000 on this. Now, I can just implement it in my company,” you have a framework. By the time you're done rewriting that, it's going to be 50%-60% different (I think) than what you bought. It's still going to help you. It's still going to help you pay Mark Cunningham, or any of these people, or Landlord Source for something that they have, is going to help you in getting your brain thinking about what you need to do for that role or position, but how Mark Cunningham or Landlord Source do their business is not the same way. I don't do my business the same way as anyone and I get a lot of their information. I look at them and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, it’s really cool how they did that,” but then we might have a different law in California, a different ruling, a different way of doing what we have to. You can't assume that what someone else do you can just implement in your company on day one. Jason: Yeah. For a lot of us, it's easier to create something. Especially, for starting from scratch. If you're a startup, or you're a new property manager, you never documented your processes, sometimes it's helpful to have some resources to look at. It might not even be that great. Sometimes the bad processes with the bad ideas are even better because you can look at that and the contrast from what you know you're doing and what you're reading about, you're like, “Okay, we don't want to do anything like this, and I want to make sure that we avoid these things.” I like the idea that you intensely try to break your processes. Paul: Yeah. The other thing I want to add is, I think automation is amazing, but this is my fear of automation. I will automate a lot of my processes, and they’ll be better automated than it is something that we're going to work on. But any bad process that’s automated, you're not going to see that's a bad process. If you have an email that’s automated going out and says, “Dear tenant’s last name.” Putting the tenant’s last name because you're not actually having any human do it at the beginning, then you're going to be automating that for 70-80 emails that are going to be sending “Dear tenant’s last name.” I think you need to do a process for a while by hand. You need to have an actual human being doing the process, checking the boxes, and making sure it's right, so they could find things that are wrong. When you get a process really good, then your next step is to automate, because yes, it's great to save time and have an email every week go out that tells them about their HOA violation or tells them about the moving processes. I still look at emails every once in a while and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, we forgot to change the wording from this move-in email to this move-in email saying the second week.” If it's automated, it’s going to be automated. Something automated bad is going to be badly automated forever. All I'm saying is that a lot of people want to go from no process to everything being automated, and them not being involved. I don't think that's possible. Wolfgang Croskey, he’s automated, and he does an amazing job, but I don't think he went from not having a process to everything running on its own, and him not involved in it. Jason: No. There was a coaching plan for a good while and I know he didn't start at Podio. I think he was using Process Street and even before that, he was working on stuff. I love the idea. You got to do it manually. A lot of property managers are already doing a lot of things manually. They're doing it that way first. They now need to document it, then they need to figure out, how can we start to systemize this? How can we create consistency? How can we automate this? How can we make sure it's being done the same way every single time and there are checks and balances? That's one of the reasons I like Process Street because you can build a process and that’s one step, and you just paste it in a Word document if you have to. Really, really low level and maybe that's the best you've got. Eventually, you can break it into some multiple steps. Then you can get it into something crazy like you're 100 plus step thing that's got context-sensitive options based on what you pick, and it's going to give you different tasks to do depending on what options you're selecting, and you can get really crazy (if that makes sense). The cool thing about having a process though is you can continually improve it. It can get better over time. That means that you're lowering operational costs, you're lowering drag, you're improving your team member’s ability to accomplish things and win, and get things done. Now, what do you think about the challenge of people as a process? What I mean is, everybody has team members that they need in order to think. If somebody is making decisions, they're planning, they're coming up with ideas. Then you have team members that really are operating like a computer. Their job is just to follow the process. How do you balance this in your own company and determine, is this just anybody on the planet that could just follow this checklist, or they need some customer service skills, and they need to be able to communicate? How do you balance the discrepancy that people have that are fearful of processes because they're like, “I want my clients to be taken care of really well.” Paul: You still have to think. You still have to go through it. You still look and see what's going on. How many of us property owners, managers, et cetera, spend nights thinking about everything we have to do the next day? You write steps down on a sheet of paper before you go to bed and then you try to get it out of your mind so the next day you don't forget it. You're not doing that because you don't want to care about your business or you don’t what I think about it, you're doing it because you don't want to be staying up at 1:00 in the morning, sitting there and trying to think what you need to do. Everything we do in life, if something tells us how to do it, then we can start thinking about things that are higher level. You can take your employees. If you could take a lease renewal process and you can make it so that every single time it's done correctly, it's done right, no one wants to think about it, then there's no stress on these renewals. Now, when something does come up that’s stressful, people that are higher level can think about the things that are higher level. You have a maintenance issue where someone falls off the roof and you're getting sued. You're not going to process for that. Now, instead of you thinking about lease renewals and wasting your time on something that can be automated, something that can be just automatic, you can spend your time on high-level items, and you're going to have employees that need to spend their time with high-level items, so you could spend your time on other high-level items. Probably the management will never be completely automated. There are companies that say, “Oh, we could just automate everything,” no, you can automate a lot of stuff so you can spend your time on the 10% of the stuff that really, really matters, that’s really stressful, and that can't be automated. Jason: We talked about this on the show I think probably several times with different companies, but ultimately, the goal (in my opinion) when it comes to technology, when it comes automation, when it comes to systems, is to take off the plate of yourself and your team members, the stuff that's really redundant, the stuff that could be systemized so that you can focus more on depth. I think that's where property managers are going to be able to compete with the big conglomerates, the big companies that are super tech-based, is that it's going to be about relationships. Property management is a high touch relationship type of business. If process and systems allow you to create a more personal touch, to go deeper, to spend more time communicating more intimately with more depth with tenants, residents, owners, then I think you're creating a business that is going to have significant value, and it's going to have longevity because it’s built on relationships. Ultimately, it's people that are giving you the money. As people, we tend to like humanity, and we tend to like people. Paul: If you're spending, as a business owner, 20 hours a month on something that can be automated or something that can be done by someone at a less level, you have to think of your time as value. When I had 30 doors, I did everything. When I had 50 doors, I was still doing everything. You have to figure out where you value your time. I have five remote employees and I have two employees in my office. People are like, “Oh my gosh, that's a ridiculous amount of employees you have for the number of doors you have.” We’re profitable, and we’re profitable because we're in California, we price ourselves well. It's the customer service level we give our competition. Some of them are missing the mark. They are not giving that customer service, so we are giving it. Someone is not going to leave because of some deep discount or just giving really bad customer service where retention is so huge. I'm seeing so many property managers talk about retention being better than growth because if you are losing 20% or 30% of your doors, all your time and ability is going to just stay even. People are spending $500–$1000 a door to get a new lead, but there are others that walk out the door. My thing is to give really good customer service and don't let those doors leave you. They are going to leave you because they are selling, but don't let them leave you because you are not doing the job right. Jason: I find that with clients. A lot of times, the issue with retention. I agree, retention is a significant thing. The issue with retention is often created during the sales and onboarding so if you can really systemize, automate, and build a really solid process during the sales and onboarding, you've got a really solid sales and onboarding process that really develops a strong relationship, that would carry you for years with some clients. Paul: I agree. Jason: And the trust level is higher even if the communication (later on) is really low. If you created them in the beginning, they are going to trust you and it's going to be a lot stronger. If that's not done effectively during onboarding and sales and isn't created well, there's going to be a lot of uncertainty, a lot of fear. They are going to be questioning everything that you do. You might end up a lot more operational costs related to that, and they are probably not going to stay with you as well. Paul: I agree. We have one person whose new onboarding is their main priority. It's making sure that new owners have a good experience and are treated well, and the onboarding experience is great. Never lose a customer. I think one of the podcasts I heard about that, I read the book. It was a great book. It's about customer service and taking it to the next level.  The thing is people will spend so much money on different things and then don’t answer the phone. If you can have your people working on the process, working on other things, then you answer your phone, you are not going to let that lead that. You just play when it clicks, $30, $20 get away. Processes are huge for your business to me, they are the number one building block.  I don't think everyone on all the boards is always, "How can I grow? How can I grow? How can I grow?" I think growth is important, but if you grow and all of a sudden, you add 100 doors in one year and it was just you, you don't have a process and everything is in your head, then you are going to lose all those doors because you are not going to be able to give. When you had 30 doors, and you go from 30 to 130 and you’re at the customer service, you gave those 30 people. You are not going to be able to give 130 because all of a sudden, then you are hiring someone. They are going to be like, "Well, how do I do it?"  "Well, you just got to listen to my head." No one can read your head. So, even if you are a single person that's by themself, if you want to give a task away, then start working on the process for it as soon you have to give that away. If you are at 50, 60, 70 doors, I would tell those people it's more important for you to start working your processes right now unless you plan just staying at 50 or 60 and never want to grow.  Jason: This is one of the greatest secrets that I coach entrepreneurs when they come into our program. One of the very first things to start them with is helping them get clarity on where they can get leverage the quickest first. It's usually different for everybody. There are some similarities but the way to identify that is usually done through getting clear on where you are actually going. I have them do a time study, then I have them identify which things are energizing them and which things are draining them, then which things are strategic versus tactical. The strategic stuff grows your business, tactical stuff just keeps it going. Most of the process would work by its tactical work. The strategic work is what you are talking about doing in creating a new process. You are like, "We are going to work for this new process for the next two months when we get this dialed-in." That's what grows companies.  If you get to stay in your area of genius, the things you really enjoy doing as a business owner, and you've identified what does are because you are clear on which things are causing you grief and energizing you versus draining you, then you know exactly what to offload. You know what to give to your assistant and different people. We've had different great companies here talking about [...], hire smart VAs, great assistants. We've had companies talking about virtual team members and whatnot. Those are great episodes if you want to listen to those on the DoorGrow Show. We touched a lot on those different ideas. Ultimately, one takeaway you want everybody to get is that everybody can have the property management business that they enjoy, that they love having, and if we built around you and what your unique strengths are, maybe you love the accounting side, maybe you love doing the phone calls, the customer service, connection with people. Maybe you’re a people person, maybe you geek out on systems and process, but you can do whatever you want to do in your business if that's your intention. I think we get stuck sometimes having the business that we think that we need to do like the job that we need to do in the business instead of the business that we want. Paul: I would agree with that 100%. Last year, we grew 80 doors so that's probably the average of what our average. We are averaging between 5 and 10 doors a month. We haven't really started spending money on marketing because I really wanted to first get everything correct and right. One of my property management friends (who is my mastermind guru) calls me once a month and asks me, "Hey, Paul. Did you talk to a tenant this month?" and I'm not allowed to talk to tenants because it was taking time away that I could be doing other high-level things and I need to trust my team to deal with my tenants.  Now, if it gets to a certain level and I have to talk to a tenant, then that's a different call, but I have to make sure that I am actually thinking about when I talk to a tenant. When a tenant calls because they are pissed-off about the fact that we paid the utility bill and make every charge, I have to trust my team’s going to handle it, my team's going to do it, and that I am not going to get involved in it because I find when I get involved in it, then I might do something that wasn't like the process we agreed upon as a team. I even had to, as an owner, that's $25. You are talking for 10 minutes, not worth my time for $25.  I have to be out of it because I will be like, “Yeah, just waive the $25. I don't want to talk to them anymore.” It's really important that no matter who you are, that you follow what you tell your team to follow. A lot of times, you can do it yourself, you made your own decision, but once you make a decision on how you are going to run your process or what your rules are, you have to stick to it company-wide.  I laugh because it's usually us, as the owner, are the worst culprits of not following what we are going to do. The employees do it because a lot of times my employees’ bonuses are based on serving certain goals so if I don't accept anything, they are like, "Man, you are hitting on my bonus. Don't be messing with my goals."  That's something I've learned is just find what you like. Find what you are good at and get a group of property managers around you that can be like a mastermind group that can keep you focused because you need other owners to tell you, "Stop doing that," because your employees won't always tell you exactly what you need to do, what you need to hear.  The other thing is when systems aren't working right. Now, there's a system in there where my employees can say, "Well, you didn't follow the system here." Every person is accountable for checking off what they have to do in the system. When I don't check it off at the end of the week, an email goes out to every person who missed any steps of the system. I have an employee that's checking that. My name is on there. I miss a part of my system and it will list. I never want to be there with three or four items that I missed because that would look really bad. That's another thing, the accountability, I'm not doing the accountability part. I have an employee on Saturday that answers the phones and her job on Saturday if it’s not very busy, is to go through every single process in [...] and write down who hasn't met their deadlines for that process. Jason: Yeah, accountability. Paul: It works really well. None of us wants to see our name on that list, so everybody is getting their stuff done and it's not because I'm going to yell at them, it's because we don't want to be mass emailed to the whole team that you didn't do your job. Jason: It creates a lot of pressure which is a positive thing. That means you don't have to come down on them all the time. There's this lateral pressure, this internal peer pressure in which most employees and team members are recognition-based. That's how they are most motivated rather than financially, so they want to be seen as doing a good job, and they want to be recognized. That's the opposite. There's that pressure, so they want to make sure they avoid that. Paul: Exactly. Jason: It makes sense.  Paul: And we also do our bonuses based on not being recognized. Even my bonuses. Everything is based on getting your job done. What I saw in the past, we didn't have someone that was going through it weekly. We had some process where they’d be open three or four weeks and not being completed yet. Now, it's very rare for the process. It will definitely not be there if you are listed on that one week. If you are listed in the second week for the same one, then you are going to have a conversation with me, then you’re going to me. Our processes are never missed for more than 5–7days, which is huge.  The only thing that I'm still trying to figure out is maintenance because I use Property Meld and I'm still trying to figure out how I can make sure my maintenance team doesn’t get missed. Property Meld does good ways of doing that. That's something I'm currently working on is how on a weekly basis, we can check to make sure none of that's missed.  Everything that you do, you got to find using the software systems that will work to check on the system.  Jason: All right. Paul, I think it has been really fascinating. I think everybody listening got a lot of value out of this. I loved your tips about where to start. Anything else that you throw out there and want to say to anybody before we wrap this up about creating systems in the business? Paul: I just tell them the dates. Our website is pmsystemsconference.com and the dates of our conference will be August 10th through 13th. It's in Las Vegas and it will be in Rio. It is not up yet, we should have it up next week or two. We are still working on it. We just got the rooms and booked everything yesterday. We just booked for August, but it's a really good time. Last time in January, we went ziplining on one of the nights. We also try new fun stuff because if you are working all day, you also want to have fun. There was a time we went bowling one night which is a great time to get together with a small number of property managers and get to know them. I enjoyed it.  People always ask me how long I am going to do it, I'm going to do it until I stop getting fun. When it becomes a job, then I'll stop doing that workshop, but now I go there and it's like seeing a bunch of old friends.  Jason: Cool, love it. All right, Paul, thanks for coming to the DoorGrow show. I appreciate you. Paul: Thank you so much, Jason. You have a wonderful day.  Jason: All right, so check out his website. Check that out. Thanks everybody for tuning in. If you have a moment, make sure to like and subscribe. If you are watching this on YouTube, be sure to like and subscribe. If you are listening to this on a podcast on iTunes, then please leave us a review. We would love it. That would be great. If you are a property management entrepreneur, you are struggling, you are frustrated, you are not sure what you need to do in order to grow, there's a lot of different ways you can approach growth depending on what challenges you are dealing with now. We have solutions for various things here at DoorGrow that we can help you with, please reach out. You can check us out at doorgrow.com, and we will talk to you soon, everybody. Until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. 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I had the pleasure of speaking with Bradley Metrock, CEO of Score Publishing. Bradley is many things, and most certainly all things voice. Bradley has been in the voice space for several years and culminated the Project Voice event, the number one event for voice technology and AI in America. During the podcast, I had the opportunity to learn more about what Bradley does and his vision for the future of voice. He talks in depth about how businesses need to understand the importance of incorporating voice technology within small to medium size companies. If they don’t do it soon, they will quickly fall behind. Bradley is also the Keynote Speaker at Nashville Voice Conference 2020, coming up on August 7 at the Nashville Entrepreneur Center. The event will focus on how all businesses can become more efficient and effective through the creation of Alexa Skills and Google Actions. Paul: How familiar do you believe businesses currently are with voice apps, Alexa skills and Google actions? Bradley: I think it varies, but in general it's pretty low. I view it as defensive in nature rather than offensive in nature. I think a business, including mom and pop gas stations, and as you get into the enterprise space, needs to be working with voice or working with groups like Data Driven Design who are working with voice on their behalf so that they are accumulating knowledge and they're getting acclimated to the space. But the bottom line is that if you're not delving into those waters, you're falling behind, and you're not understanding. Paul: Do you think businesses know that they can build custom applications for Alexa and Google assistant just like they can with websites or mobile apps and how those can actually help them be more efficient and effective? Bradley: I think some of that knowledge is there. They want to turn to professionals, and do it right. I don't think it's part of the mental calculus for a lot of companies. Like do the tools exist? Paul: You wrote a book more than just weather and music, 200 ways to use Alexa. Tell us about that. Tell us about some of those use cases that you've found. Bradley: It's profound. All the things that you can do with Alexa’s ecosystem. I always joke, you could line up a hundred Amazon employees and even they wouldn't know 70% or 80% of some of these things that are in the book. And I'll give you a couple of examples. It's called “Alexa, What am I Holding?” So four Alexa devices that have a front facing camera, like the Echo Show, and The Echo Spot. They have a feature called “Alexa, what am I holding?” Paul: If you had to come up with an idea of big or small to help any kind of business, including your own, with operations or marketing, creating a voice app, an Alexa skill or a Google action, what would it be? Bradley: We just went through that with Project Voice. We wanted to create a voice experience that you don't want to regurgitate the web. So with Project Voice, we thought, what is it that a voice experience for a conference ought to do? And what is it it can do, that's above and beyond regurgitating the web? And one of the things that we came up with that we used to great effect was having speakers talk about their sessions in their own voice. Paul: The goal of the Nashville Voice Conferences is to help people make things happen with their businesses with voice. And, you are the keynote speaker at Nashville Voice Conference 2020, and I'm very proud of that. Can you give us a little preview of what you're thinking will be valuable to the attendees on August 7th, 2020 at the Nashville Entrepreneur Center? Bradley: Sure! I'm thrilled that there is a Nashville Voice Conference, number one. I'm thrilled that it's growing. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/paulhickey/support

One year ago we listed a business that created a massive amount of activity, garnering ten offers, many above asking price. As part of our incredible exit series, today we welcome a seller who has had some time to reflect on all the things he did right in his sale and share what he has been up to since. Paul Anderson started his career as an accountant, taking the safe path and spending ten years in corporate America. An increasing lack of passion led him to start to build his own lifeboat. He avidly studied Amazon FBA and learned by following experts in the e-commerce space. Although his first launch failed he carried on, honing his awareness of product opportunities out there and eventually he hit it big. Today Paul delves into the building of the business, the pillars of his success, and the components of his path to becoming an exitpreneur. Episode Highlights: Paul's first product's failure to launch and what he learned. How he sourced the second product and what happened in the last quarter of 2016. Funding subsequent stock and the challenges of inventory planning. How Paul stands on all four pillars of a successfully built business as well as that invisible fifth pillar. The scheduling and nitty gritty of the sale process. How the final buyer was chosen and the deciding factors for Paul. Why the highest bidder does not always win. The toughest challenges of running the business. Why Paul decided to sell. What he has been doing since the sale. Tips for building a successful content website. Transcription: Mark: So almost one year ago to the date of the recording of this episode of the podcast I was on a car ride with Joe; you Joe from where was it? It was from Dallas down to Houston and then Houston back up to Dallas. We were meeting with a good friend of ours that lived in Houston and while we were in that car ride you had launched a new listing that went absolutely berserk. And I've referenced this; I think we've actually talked about this on the podcast a few times, I've referenced this deal because it was one of these outlier deals that seem to check every single box and the result was just a massive amount of requests for phone calls and I believe 10 offers within a very short amount of time. And it's been a year since that launched and obviously, the deal closed which we're super happy about but now you finally get to have the seller on the podcast talking about all the things that he did right. Joe: Yeah it's a great time because it's a year out so he gets to look back. And over the years of doing this podcast the people listening have heard us talk about the four pillars; risk, growth, transferability, and documentation and someone might go yeah ok whatever, the reality is that they matter. Paul Anderson sold his business; 10 offers, he checked off every one of these pillars and the six little subtitles under each pillar and then the fifth one which I know Mark there's no fifth pillar, but the fifth one is the man or person or entrepreneur behind the business. Paul being a former CPA turned entrepreneur who outsourced his bookkeeping to a bookkeeper is just a super likable guy, stay at home dad, buttoned up in so many different ways. The end result is I had to clear his schedule; he basically had three conference calls with highly qualified buyers for five days in a row. He was exhausted from it because each one was… Joe: So you had 15 conference calls then. Paul: 15 conference calls. Joe: And I remember again we were in the car going back up to Dallas and you were on the phone pretty much constantly telling people okay let me see if I can arrange a time for you. So there was a lot more requests for conference calls on this deal. Paul: A lot more requests and we say we had 10 offers but finally a few people dropped out because they just didn't want to compete because they knew what it is going to be. And the funny thing is people get concerned about that and we always say right up front look don't get caught up in the hype of multiple offers, don't go beyond your comfort level, offer-wise. We want you to make an offer that works for you and hopefully will work for the seller as well because we want it to go all the way from letter of intent through to due diligence and that's exactly what we wound up with. And oddly enough Paul did not choose as we always say they don't necessarily choose the highest price. He didn't do that. He picked the offer that was best for him and I think it was somewhere $150,000 lower than the highest price. So we talked about a little bit of that process, what makes a good seller, a good buyer, and then we talked about what he's doing today which is really interesting as well so hopefully, everybody will enjoy this podcast. Joe: Absolutely. Paul: Let's go to it. Joe: Hey folks. Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have an Incredible Exits client on the phone with me. It's Paul Anderson. We sold Paul's business I think; when was it, Paul? Paul: March of last year, so a little under a year ago. Joe: Spring of 2019; so a little under a year ago. So we're going to talk about Paul's exit. We're going to talk about what Paul went through when he built the business, sold the business after he sold the business, and what he's doing now so we're going to get the full picture. Paul welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Paul: Thanks Joe, good to be here. Good to talk to you. Joe: So for the folks listening why don't you give a little bit of background on your professional pedigree and your entrepreneurial journey? Paul: Yeah, sure. So I actually studied accounting and followed that path. I was kind of one of those people that never really knew what I wanted to do. Like some people I think they're just like hey I want to be a TV news reporter or a journalist, I never really had that strong thing tapped me on the shoulder that said this is what you should do so I took a pretty safe practical path. I went into accounting and got my CPA. I spent about 10 years working in corporate America doing accounting and finance jobs and didn't really ever feel like that passion and eventually it started to kind of wear me down. I got to the point where I had to think of something else to do and try to build my own little lifeboat to escape from that because something inside me just didn't feel right anymore doing that. So that's kind of what led into starting a business. So that's in 2016. Somewhere; I don't even remember where I started to hear about Amazon FBA and I kind of consumed everything I could about it like podcasts, there's this guy Manny Coats inaudible[00:06:09.6] Helium10, he had a great podcast back then, Amazing Seller; there's all sorts of good stuff online about the model and that's kind of how it started and I started really small. We can get into it from there but that was kind of the first step, learning about it and seeing like oh I think I could do this. Joe: So you learned about it from podcasts; you didn't pay for a course or anything like that, you were absorbing free information from experts in the space. Paul: I never bought a single course it was all podcasts, Facebook groups, Reddit forums, and I was just… Joe: I love it. Paul: Yeah I can tell you about the first launch which was a total fail but that was like my training course like the very first launch because I learned. Joe: Failure is a great lesson. How much money did you pull together to launch the business and were you working at that point in the CPA business? Paul: Yeah I was still working. It was 2016, I put $5,000 in to do; most of it was an inventory buy so I was on Alibaba like at night trying to find my suppliers talking with China and I put in probably about 5,000 bucks to start on my first product. Joe: Okay. And you just mentioned Helium10; did you use Helium10 to help you find that first product? Paul: Yes. So it's funny like almost all the products I launched I've kind of like encountered in the real world somewhere and the product that turned out to be my big business was I kind of got onto it from a discussion with my parents. We're just having a casual discussion like you would have many times a day and they mentioned this particular thing and I would always in my iPhone put down; anything that seemed interesting I would just like log it in there and then I come back to it. So I had a list of 20 to 30 things going and I went back and started doing some research. I actually was using Jungle Scout back then and I switched over to Helium10 for everything now. Joe: Oh they're both great products; both of them. Manny and Greg have both been on the podcast; great guys. Paul: Yeah, for sure. So I kind of punched it in there and said like oh this looks like; the numbers look good and that's kind of how it started but it really was that conversation being like; I think if there's a lesson there it's being aware, we have so many kinds of filters and blinders on like if you really put yourself in the headspace of looking for opportunities you'd be surprised how many little things you read online or you hear about through friends like this is really popular; there's just all sorts of those little things that pop up that could turn out to be big businesses. Joe: So pay attention to your surroundings; the stuff that you use every day, emerging products in categories and niches and try to pay attention to and think is there an opportunity? Did you use any tools to see if a lot of people were selling in that particular category and that particular product? Paul: I mean Jungle Scout helps with that but mainly you can just go on and kind of assess like if page one everyone's got a thousand reviews and they're really well-known brands or something that's probably going to be a tough place to break into. Joe: Tough barrier; okay. So tell us about your first test, it was an epic fail? Paul: Yeah, so I was really pumped and thought like here it is, this is going to be like my ticket out of full-time work and it's going to be amazing and it was actually an accessory. Have you ever heard of pour-over coffee? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So that was kind of just bubbling up, seeming like oh this is really a trending product… Joe: Too much work; I never bought it because… Paul: Too much work, yeah, but there's a lot of people that are really into the craft obviously a coffee one and having some artisan experience. So I sourced these little wooden coffee stands that's basically used to make pour-over coffee. And it was kind of a cool thing but it turns out products made out of wood can crack and can break and have issues and I was not an expert at sourcing at that point in time so the long story short a lot of the products ended up cracking and breaking. And then once you start getting all these one-star reviews and returns; like my garage was full all around with carts of returned inventory and there wasn't that much demand I think. At the start, I was thinking oh you really got a niche down into this little tiny space and own that and there just wasn't quite enough demand in that space either. So I kind of learned to be a little smarter on sourcing and just to look for ways that things can go wrong inaudible[00:10:31.6] thing that's just so niche that like even if you execute and everything is great like you're going to be selling a couple of units a day. Joe: So how much money did you test and lose on that first product launch? Paul: So that was about 5,000 bucks in and I didn't take to bad a bee but I think I lost about a thousand dollars on it which isn't bad. Joe: Oh that's not bad. Paul: Yeah. Joe: Not enough to make you go away and say okay this didn't work I'm done; I'm going to go back to the corporate world. You got a taste for it and you said okay I just picked the wrong product. Paul: Exactly. And I mean I was still in the corporate world and like 5,000 bucks it's not like a lot of money at the time so it wasn't like I was; I'm like yeah whatever it doesn't matter. At that point, the stakes felt real and high. Joe: Yeah. Paul: Because it definitely was like I can see the power here on Amazon it's just like finding the right thing to really get this thing spinning. Joe: Okay. So you learned a lesson; you only lost 20% of your money but you get an excellent education from it better than any course you could have ever purchased. You went out there tried it, failed, learned, and didn't lose so much that you couldn't do it again. So you came up with another product niche and decided to go at it again? Paul: Exactly yes. So then I was actually going over to; are you familiar with the Canton Fair which is the big supplier…? Joe: Yeah. Paul: So I had a trip booked to go over there and kind of in-between going there… Joe: Just out of curiosity did you book it with a group or was it just you? Paul: Just me and my wife went over. Joe: Oh okay, because I was just talking to Athena from China Magic and they have a group of folks that go on a regular basis for those that are terrified to go alone. So you and your wife chose to book a flight to China and go to the Canton Fair alone. Paul: I loved it. It was really, really full out and I'm eager to go over there. Joe: Okay. Paul: I actually ended up finding my supplier on Alibaba before I went so I can't really say that the trip necessarily paid off in terms of like… Joe: Did you connect with him in person when you got to the Canton Fair? Paul: No because it was still too early and he was pretty far away from the Canton Fair. I think it helped me really see kind of like the culture of China and doing business with China and I think just a little savvier about how things work. So it was a great education for that and just like a lot of fun to check it out; I mean the place is just massive, like multiple football fields. Anything you want to ever source it would be out there so it was a super interesting spot. But anyway back to your second question so yes I stumbled upon this other product and started kind of the wheels turning in 2016 to source it. I got it on I think in the fall of 2016 and I remember that Q4 for Amazon or e-commerce is like the prime time and I remember just refreshing that seller app that Black Friday, Cyber Monday, like all through up until Christmas and it was just mind-blowing the sales that were coming in off this new product. Joe: What was it like your first day that you got a sale, how many sales did you have all together; do you remember? Paul: Oh I mean it started slow. The first thing was probably just two or three units. I mean it's really; it was in such a momentum game like when you have no momentum it's hard to keep momentum and then once you get this momentum going and the wheels start spinning it can blow your mind like the amount of sales that… Joe: And that actually blew our mind within the first month or in that first quarter like what did you wind up with on the biggest day within a couple of months of launching it in the Q4 of ‘16? Paul: I don't want to say maybe like $8,000 of sales there. Joe: Oh, wow. Paul: Something big like and then when you look at the profits from that it's like wow I made more money like on this one day than; and I had a pretty decent corporate job, I'm like this is crazy like the potential. So the hooks kind of got in me right there and then '16 was kind of just getting off the ground and then the next year is when the ball really started to roll. Joe: When you started to get revenue in the fourth quarter of 2016 and sales started to come in you had euphoria with the fact that you were getting that kind of revenue and making more money in one day than you made perhaps in a month in the corporate world but did you also have the fear of oh my God I'm going to run out of inventory? Paul: I did. Joe: Okay. Paul: Yeah, inventory is like not something glamorous to talk about and you don't really hear about it that much in podcasts or anything else but it's like running a physical products company doing an Amazon business like the inventory planning is so difficult because your sales can change on a dime. inaudible[00:15:20.7] your supplier 30 days early to make something and another 30 days to put them on a ship to get it over here. So you've got these difficult variables to manage that can leave you stocked out or even a little bit too much stuck so that's always a tough thing to manage. Joe: Awesome. I don't think I've ever met an Amazon seller or an e-commerce business person that's been growing rapidly that's not run out of inventory at one point or another. All right, so you started with $5,000, did a test, failed, how long between the first failed test and the second product that took off; how many months was it? Paul: That was about three months I think. Joe: Okay, and all the time you kept your day job which is fantastic. So you've got some revenue, you've got some money in the account that's transferred to your business account, at what point did you order more inventory with and did you just use that money or did you sit down and talk as a family and say okay this is a winner we need to take a home equity line of credit; how did you fund the rest of the inventory purchases? Paul: It was all really funded with profits. Joe: It was? Okay. Paul: Yeah, it was. Joe: And you didn't have to take any money out for living expenses because you had your day job so that's perfect. Paul: Yeah. If I wouldn't have my day job it would have made it much more difficult but luckily I had some steady income coming in on the day job and then I was able to just take the profits and reinvest them back in and just go from there. Joe: Fast forwarding you had an amazing 2017, an amazing 2018; strong year over year growth, like huge year over year growth. For those listening, Paul's business was listed again spring of 2019 and it's those perfect situation folks where we talk about the four pillars of a sellable business and that invisible fifth one which is the person behind the business and that's Paul. We have a 30-month-old Amazon business with an incredible brand that's growing rapidly year over year. The financials we're set up impeccably. Paul is a CPA but he did something incredible which was what? You outsourced the books to an e-commerce bookkeeper; brilliant by the way. So those of you that are out there saying oh I can do this I'm not going to pay a few hundred bucks to a bookkeeper we've got a CPA here that chose to outsource to an e-commerce bookkeeper because he can do better things than bookkeeping with his time like grow a multi-million dollar Amazon brand which is exactly what you did. Your business checks so many boxes. It was SBA eligible. You were the owner behind the business. You built trust. People believed in you. During the recorded video interview, you're the first person; and I keep asking people to do it now, you're the first person that ever sat in front of the camera, reached down picked up the product and demonstrated the product. You showed the new packaging that you had just done. It was beautiful and the end result was an overwhelming request to buy the business, conference calls where you had to clear your schedule for a week. I said Paul cancel everything, right? We had to clear it and we ended up with I think three calls with qualified buyers every day for five days. We wound up with 10 total offers. I think we were at; the top one was something like $150,000 over asking price. Paul: Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. Joe: Yeah, and we say this all the time that it's not always the offer that comes in with the highest number, it's the right fit more than anything else. We had; of the 10 offers, I think we had maybe six that were SBA and four that were cash. You ended up choosing a cash buyer and not just because it was a cash buyer but also the person behind the business. We did video interviews between the buyer and seller. How much did that matter and how much of a difference did that make for you? Paul: The interviews mattered a ton. I mean that was the deciding factor because when I went into the process I just thought like well it's pretty simple, right? You take the highest number and the highest bidder wins but as you get into it and talk to different people it's like a huge diverse set of backgrounds that people are coming through Quiet Light looking to buy, right? Joe: Right. Paul: And some people I felt like wow I could just hand this to them and they could run with it immediately and do like as good or better a job with this than I ever could. And others are like hey I really like this person and their heart is in the right place but I feel like the transition might take a little bit longer and then what if somewhere they dropped the ball and things get sideways like I don't want that somehow to come back to me. I don't know if that's a rational way to think about it but if there was a lot of comfort like feeling this guy or these guys I feel like really got it, they get it, they know what to do, they will hit the ground running from day one so to me that mattered a whole lot. Joe: Yeah. And I think given the fact that we're in this remote world where your buyers and sellers are all over the world literally sometimes doing a video conference call for that initial call breaks the ice. You're not reading the client interview anymore, you're not just talking to somebody on the phone; you can see the whites of their eyes and anybody that wants to see Paul we're recording this both on Zoom with video and audio and it will be up on the YouTube page as well. He does not look like a buttoned-up CPA today and I was making fun of him when we first got on the call. You've always looked like that but today you know what you're a successful exitpreneur. You got the sweatshirt on, a little stubble, working from home; I love it. All right so I want to you ask a couple of things just for the audience purposes. Number one back to running the business what was the toughest challenge in running the business? Let's start with that. Go ahead. Paul: Yeah. I'd say even at the start this isn't even a tactical thing but the hardest thing was just getting the momentum going. Starting an Amazon business is not like hey I'm trying to create an electric car and beat Elon Musk but even me like I had a lot of doubts at the start like is this is going to work, am I going to lose all my money? All of these doubts kind of creep into your head so I remember really kind of struggling to pull the trigger in a way thinking like I just don't know is this supposed to be my pathway? So I think that was really hard to overcome and you just kind of keep going one foot in front of the other and once you get a little momentum it just like brings all this energy and life into you that you just feel so energized to just keep improving and add products and make your products better and make the packaging better. Getting that first momentum can feel elusive and challenging so I think that was like a big thing at the start. Joe: And you failed and then you stuck with it and then you succeeded. Paul: Yeah. And I was kind of at an inflection point like should I keep going or is this just not meant to be and then you know. Joe: This may be a dumb question but are you glad you kept going? Paul: I'm very glad. It changed my life that I kept going. I mean I'd still be sitting at a desk in corporate America right now I hadn't kept going and like we've got a three-year-old son at home like the physical time we will spend with him and then mentally my head is so much like the stress is away from me. So I was always stressed working in corporate America so it's been the biggest blessing ever to go out and do this. It's changed my whole family's life. Joe: Okay. So let me ask the question that all buyers ask, why did you sell the business? Paul: Yeah, it was a tough decision to sell because I was having so much fun running it. And I think the honest answer is the value of the business became such that it really could provide a lot of security for our family. And it felt like if I was 23 and single and didn't have kids I'll like alright instead of going for this I might have just keep on going and try to sell it for three times this or five times this or just keep going. But knowing Amazon can be volatile and like I had all my eggs in that basket so it just felt like the responsible thing is to take some chips off the table and let go of the business but it was really hard. Joe: The responsible thing; I like that, the responsible thing. Your CPA background is coming out now. That's good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right so what was the toughest part about going through the sales process and selling the business; what was the hardest part there? Paul: Picking a buyer was really tough. Joe: It's a good problem. That's a good problem to have. Paul: I mean just even knowing how to approach it and you really helped a ton Joe in that process. When it's your first time through and you already have kind of these emotions like you built this thing and now it's worth something that people want it, it's a weird feeling and like how to value it and how to find the right fit and thinking about SBA versus cash; there's just a lot of things that are spinning through your head at that time so I think just getting a clear head and trying to identify what the right fit was the toughest part. Joe: Okay. I think you again exception rather than really had 10 offers, I think maybe one or two might have come in slightly under asking price but the vast majority was above. I think 2019 the average offers that we had on any single listening was two and a half so you are five times that amount which is pretty exceptional. That goes to the brand that you built. It goes to the way that you set the business up with its own entity. You didn't come and go books. You're a CPA but you hired a professional bookkeeper. You instilled so much confidence in buyers. They clearly came out of the woodworks to buy your business. All right, the toughest part was choosing the buyer; that's amazing. It's not what I would've guessed you would have said. Sometimes it's due diligence but with you, it was choosing a buyer. All right so now there's life after the sale, you were in the corporate world working 40, 50 hours a week or sometimes more in tax season and then you're an entrepreneur working from home spending time with your son now what are you doing? You've sold the business nine months ago, what are you doing with your time? Paul: Yeah so it's been nice to have a little; in life usually you're just like chasing after the next thing and I've had just the time to step back and think really what I want to do and what I want my life to look like so it's been like a real luxury. So I'm going into; I'm building a website, it's called WealthFam.com. Joe: Fam like family? Okay. Paul: Yup like family. It's brand new but basically it sort of like combines my background and what I like to do. So it's all about building wealth; becoming financially independent, starting and running online businesses. Basically, it's how to be smarter with your money and use the money to help kind of enable the life that you want to live whether it's being with your kids or going on trips or whatever else. So it's a content site which is a super interesting thing. I thought a lot about going back and doing another Amazon business but I just didn't feel the same spark for like starting it and it takes a lot of energy and mental fortitude to take something from A to Z and you've got to really want it kind of every step of the way. So this just kind of really energized me and there's been some great stories like Ramon's story; you featured Ramon. It like blew my mind the… Joe: His content site, yeah. Paul: And that happened in the content space so that was really exciting to me. And on top of that I just like doing this stuff so it feels like the right sort of fit. Joe: So what kind of subjects are you going to cover on Wealth Fam? Paul: So it's broken down a couple of categories like making money, saving money, investing money, financial independence, and then some stuff like how money intersects with having a kid and being married or buying a house. So I'm trying to make it like a modern personal finance site that people in their teens, 20s, 30s, can find well like at least from my experience like education society; like our schools and in general, there's not a lot of like real training about… Joe: There's none of it. There's none of it, yeah. Paul: And there's even a lesson mode like starting an online business and like the potential kind of betting on yourself. Joe: It seems like a great idea because you're taking your educational experience along with your entrepreneurial experience and marrying them together with a content site which is great. I love content sites. We work with SaaS, content, and FBA and content is just fantastic. Scott Voelker is really, really focused on helping people go beyond FBA and build content sites and some of them have great success and its driving more traffic back to FBA and getting their business products sold. For those that aren't familiar with content site monetization, how do you plan to monetize the site? Paul: So there's a couple of traditional ways that people will do it. So, first of all, you have to have traffic. I mean if I have traffic inaudible[00:28:43.3] selling eyeballs like it's tough to; getting traffic is really hard and you're playing like this SEO game and it takes a long time to rank in Google. Then there's a couple of primary ways, the first is affiliate links like you could be selling a course or selling something on Amazon or selling; the Amazon FBA thing is a really interesting thing for Amazon sellers to marry their inaudible[00:29:04.9] business with content. I love that idea. I think that's really smart. There's brand sponsorships, other partnerships; but it's like advertising and affiliate income are kind of the two main plays for monetizing. Joe: I got you, okay. All right how's life at home; what do you do with your time? I mean you've you don't have a job. You're starting a content site which might take a little bit of your time. You've got a baby. Paul: It takes a lot of time. Joe: It takes a lot; the startup phase is always the hardest, isn't it? Paul: Inaudible[00:29:38.4] the thing I underestimated about content is that like writing is really hard. Joe: Yeah. Paul: I think oh I can write something about Amazon, that's easy, I know this. It takes a lot of time to really do a good job at clarifying your thoughts but overall I'm just trying to optimize my life for happiness and contentment and I get that right now being with my son and my wife. So I spend a lot of time with my family. We do a lot of cool stuff together. And I'm really liking; I do some Amazon consulting because I'm still at the Amazon blog and I like to be involved in it so I'm doing some of that for some local companies which I love doing.   Joe: Good. Paul: And then this content thing really is exciting and fun and I'm going to see where it can go and… Joe: So you didn't make enough on the sale of your business to never work again but enough to give you a pretty long runway and you're enjoying your expertise in the Amazon space and doing some consulting while you're building up another content or a content business? Paul: Yeah that's a fair way to… Joe: Does that sum it up? Paul: Yeah and I'd like to go up those kind of shift too, right? I'm not sure how in-tune you are with the financial independence world, all the people that want to retire early and be financially… Joe: Oh yeah, fire. Paul: So like if your burn rate or you can live on 40 grand a year once you stacked up a million bucks, in theory, you can quote-unquote retire. Joe: Sure. Paul: But as you think about education and college and healthcare and all these other things that number maybe gets a little bit… Joe: It gets blown out of the water. I have an 18-year-old and we're 14 days away from knowing what he's getting into which is schools and I'm rooting for the in-state schools; I'm not going to lie to you, I'm rooting for the in-state. Paul: Hey, I went to an in-state school and… Joe: Look at how it turned out; pretty damn good. Paul: Yeah. Joe: All right cool. Well, listen Paul I always tell the story about you and your brand and the fact that that fifth pillar makes a huge difference. It's the person behind the business that builds a great business with the next owner in mind. You kind of did that, I don't know if you did it intentionally or not but you said I'm going to build a great business. I want to put it all in a package that's going to help the new owner of the business do amazing things with it. And Matt the new owner of the business as you know is doing amazing things with it. And it pays off when you think about others exactly what you did that paid off for you, it paid off for your family, and now hopefully through Wealth Fam, it's going to pay off for a lot of other visitors to your website as well so people can start young and start smart and get on the right path financially. So listen man thanks for your time. I appreciate the business that you've built because it allows me to tell a story of how the person behind the business makes a tremendous difference so thank you and I appreciate you coming on the podcast today. Paul: You got it. Anytime. Thanks a lot, Joe. Links and Resources: Paul's Website Jungle Scout Helium 10

Hi Inside Voice Podcast listeners, this is your co-host Keri Roberts, and today my guest is Paul Hickey, the founder and CEO of Data Driven Design and the founder of the Nashville Voice Conference. Paul, thank you so much for having me. Paul: You’re welcome Keri, thank you so much for having me. This is very exciting. I’m super geeked up about voice and just super excited to talk to you today. Thanks again! Keri: Yes, and I know that you started your career journey in the Sports and PR World. And in the amount of years that you spent there, what did you learn about marketing that made you want to focus on digital marketing, and now voice, specifically. 1:25 Paul: Yeah, I was a sports geek growing up as a kid. I followed all the stats and used to pretend to be an announcer, and played all sorts of sports. I was in the NBA for seven years and had a great experience there. Mainly in Detroit with the Pistons. I learned just about everything that I could possibly learn about business at that time. At first it was a lot of writing and sports information. Then, it quickly grew into marketing and learning how you can provide value to other organizations, using your own, let’s call them “assets.” And monetize things, sell sponsorships and sell tickets. Really, it was all building relationships. And because it was all building relationships and understanding what’s valuable to other people, and what’s going to put them in a position to succeed, and creating things, situations or deliverables that they can get excited about first, it became really, really easy to essentially accomplish my goals and my organization’s goals. So professional sports was fast-paced, high-pressure, high-visibility type stuff. But it was really business at it’s core. So I find that a lot of what I do today, mirrors that experience, in understanding what the client’s goals are. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/paulhickey/support

Tara Kenning:  "Teamwork makes the dream work," John C. Maxwell. I'm Tara Jaraysi Kenning and I'm a Tri-Cities Influencer. Paul:  Most people fail because of broken focus. Broken focus is one of those things that actually hurt us, so complete your tasks before you move on to another one. The ancient proverb is if you chase two rabbits, you'll catch neither Speaker 3: Raising the water level of leadership and the Tri-Cities at Eastern Washington. It's a Tri-Cities Influencer podcast. Welcome to the Tri-Cities Influencer podcast where Paul Casey interviews the local leaders like CEOs, entrepreneurs, and nonprofit executives to hear how they lead themselves and their teams so that we can all benefit from their experiences. Here's your host, Paul Casey of Growing Forward Services coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul: Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Renee Adams. She is the executive director of the arts center task force, and she's the director of programs and outreach for the Mid-Columbia Ballet. And a fun fact about Renee is she said she has this coffee cup with a picture of a cactus on it that says, "Can't touch this." Tell me about that. Renee: Hey Paul. It's really great to be here. Okay, so the story of the coffee mug. On good mornings when I wake up and open the cupboard and pull out the coffee cup, it sometimes says, "Can't touch this," and I get out my little MC Hammer moves and I do my little dance in the kitchen before getting my coffee and you know that's going to be a good day. Paul: Before we begin, let's check in with our Tri-City Influencers sponsors. Neal Taylor:  Hello, my name is Neil Taylor. I am the managing attorney for Gravis Law's commercial transactions team. The CTT team helps business owners, investors, and entrepreneurs accelerate and protect their business value. Today we're talking about employment law and alcohol and cannabis licensing. Josh Bam and Derek Johnson are both here with me now to describe those practice areas. Take it Derrick. Derrick:   Thanks Neal. I'm Derek Johnson, partner at Gravis Law. We find that many employers in Washington state simply don't have handbooks, employee policies or any other written materials to protect themselves and their employees. Without having these types of policies in place, an employer can run into trouble by firing employees even if the employee isn't properly performing or causing issues at work. Even if an employer fires someone for performance issues, for example, but fails to take the proper steps, they may run into trouble by inadvertently exposing themselves to a wrongful termination suit. We build strong, predictable and protective employee policies to protect our client's business. Josh:   That's true. Thanks Derek. And having employment policies in place when you're dealing with cannabis or alcohol licensing is especially important. We know that clean employment policy, clean corporate structure, and having an attorney that can work with the Washington State Liquor and Cannabis Board is critically important to protecting your business through licensing. The attorneys at Gravis Law have this experience. Visit us today, www.gravislaw.com. Paul:  Thank you for your supportive leadership development in the Tri-Cities. Well, welcome Renee. I was privileged to meet you last year. Leadership Tri-Cities Class of '24 at the retreat. Renee:  I think I'm supposed to say the best class ever here, yeah best class ever. Paul: All right, you can get away with that here. And you came strutting in with a smile on your face. And I'm like, I like this gal already. And you ended up getting elected president of your class. Renee:  I did. Paul:  So way to go for that. Renee: Thank you, it was a great experience. Paul:  So our Tri-City Influencers can get to know you. Take us through your past positions that led up to what you're doing now. Renee:  Yeah, well I've had a lot of different experiences in my career. I grew up as a ballet dancer and so I spent the majority of my teen years training in pre-professional ballet and I got my first job as a dancer right out of high school in Seattle with a company called Spectrum Dance Theater. And I was one of their apprentice dancers. And so I spent 12 years as a professional dancer. Primarily, I performed with contemporary dance companies in Seattle, Portland, and Chicago. And some time while I was in Portland, I realized I had an interest not just in teaching, but also in the administrative component of building outreach programs that go out into schools, community centers, and bring dance to people, one-on-one. And so those were the types of programs that I did when I wasn't on stage or in the studio. Renee:   And by the time I left Chicago, which was in about 2013, I had amassed a good experience as education specialist, education director, outreach coordinator type positions for dance companies. I made the connection with the ballet company here in Tri-Cities, Mid-Columbia Ballet actually through a friend in Chicago. And they said, "We have this company in Washington that is looking for help, and so give them a call." So I did, I called up Deborah and Joel Rogo and they hired me as their assistant artistic director. Renee:  And there was some moving around, but I eventually landed here in that position of director of programs and outreach. And then through that position, I realized I really had an interest and skill in the administrative component of arts organizations. And not just dance, but looking at how the arts as a whole benefits our community and thinking about how as an administrator of the arts, I can have a really great impact on individuals in the community through the arts, Paul:  Which not everyone in the arts or in ballet has that same wiring like you do. Renee:  Right. No, actually it's true that it's a special ... I think it's a special thing to have that. Paul:  Who are some influencers along the way in that journey that maybe were mentors to you or you picked up leadership tidbits from? Renee:  Yeah, so I think that in the beginning of my artistic journey was my ballet teacher, as most dancers would tell you, and her name was Phyllis Sear. By the time I met Phyllis, she was in her mid-80s. She was still a young-hearted woman even as she aged. And she really taught me a lot about life skills and the value of humility, the value of having grit and tenacity and following through and being patient and compassionate. And those were things that we talked about a lot in the context of performing and teaching, but they turned out to be very relevant as an administrator and as a leader. Renee:  So I've really valued those lessons. And then, as I danced through my career, I was always enamored by the company managers that I worked with. And watching them run all of the behind the scenes thing and calling the production manager and getting the tech crew there and making sure that we had funding for all of the employees to get their paycheck in time and just really watching them and listening to the tidbits of gold that they dropped. Paul: Fantastic. So when you got into these two positions, what was your original vision and then how has that morphed along your leadership journey? Renee:  That's a great question. And it's a little bit complicated because they are two different organizations that each have their own type of vision. But I think if I could summarize in both positions, my vision was sort of small. It was, what can I do with the resources I have right now to make a difference today? And maybe that was by taking an outreach program out to a senior living facility or by attending a board meeting, but over time, and I've been with Art Center Task Force as their executive director for a year, and over the course of that year, I've realized the vision is much broader and it's actually in the arts, it's about how do we bring people into our shared vision? How do we get them on the boat and show them that their vision aligns with ours? And I think the vision is more of, how do we show our community the value of the arts in their everyday lives? Paul:   Love that. So inspire a shared vision, one of the five principles- Renee: That's right. Paul:  That we learned in leadership Tri-Cities. Renee:  I learned something, Paul. Paul: You did, you did. Why is it so important to share that vision? Because you could just keep that vision, it could bubble you up every day and it's fantastic to keep you motivated, but why does it have to be a shared vision? Renee:  Well, I think that especially in the arts, nothing happens without collaboration. I think that's probably true in many industries. But as artists, we are very, very passionate and we tend to believe that our way is usually the right way. And without that element of collaboration and being able to see how our way can align with those next to us, that we all have the same kind of goals, then we really just fall into fighting and chaos. And that's something that I noticed about the Tri-Cities arts community as soon as I got here. That is not the case. This is the Tri-Cities arts community is one that its core value is collaboration, and so it was really easy to slide into that. Paul:  Are you the only staff in those roles? Is it all volunteer-based? Tell us a little bit about how you evangelize arts? Renee: Yeah. At Mid-Columbia Ballet, there are a variety of staff members. There are three key staff members, the artistic director, the company manager and myself, director of programs and outreach. And so we coordinate a lot of the day-to-day activities, each in our own sort of departments I guess. And then there are some other staff members that come on and do project-type activities. So one staff member runs our include program, which serves people with special needs and so on and so forth. So there's a lot of staff support at Mid-Columbia Ballet. There's also a lot of volunteer support there for things like the Nutcracker, which most people in the community have probably been to. What they might not realize is the Nutcracker takes about 100 volunteers every night to run the backstage components. And so certainly we can't have a staff of 100 volunteers, that would break the budget and we would not be able to share the art at art. Renee: At Art Center Task Force, it's a much different situation with a lot different mission. And so I am the only staff member. I am the first staff member of the organization. And this is an organization that was incorporated in the mid-90s, and since then it has been run on the passion and tenacity of volunteers in the community. So it is so inspiring to go to work and see that there's all these volunteers who've put in all these hours before me and be able to follow in those footsteps. Paul:  Well, what are you most passionate about? You've used the word inspire a few times already, so what are you most passionate about in these organizations right now and why? Rene: I'm really excited and passionate about the idea of finding connections between people. And a friend of mine actually at the ballet the company administrator said when I first started working on coordinating events and thinking about these bigger visions that my job was kind of like putting together the pieces of a puzzle. You me throw the puzzle out and all the pieces are there. And to be able to find the connection between two or three or four puzzle pieces that makes the whole picture, that's really exciting. That's the thing that makes me do my MC Hammer dance a little more actively in the morning. I love to see those connections. And not just with people in the arts community, I love to see how people in the sports community, in our city government, in business leadership positions throughout the community have those connections to the arts, those personal emotional connections. Paul: So you must have some type of networking strategy to make those connections. How do you prioritize your time or these people and influencers in town? Renee:  I wish I could tell you I had a perfect template for my networking strategy, but I don't. But one of the things that I realized early on is how important it is to keep on my calendar time to do my work, whether that is administrative work or phone calls or networking opportunities. And so, I just try to look at my calendar each week as a balanced meal and then each month as a balanced meal to make sure that I'm talking to the right people, to go through my database or my email list and see who is it that I haven't touched base within a while? And try to spread it out that way. Paul: Awesome. So talk to me about building a team and creating a culture. So you've got some staff in the ballet, you also have lots of volunteers and whether our listeners are a nonprofit or for-profit organizations, what do you look for when you're trying to bring someone on board, make sure they're on the right seat on the bus, the values you're trying to instill, all that? Renee:  The single biggest quality that we look for in volunteers or staff members is are you a team player? Because we really appreciate people who offer opposite views or who offer different views. And so we're not necessarily looking for somebody who just agrees with all of our pragmatic choices, but we're looking for people who can sit around the table and also be that team. The other thing we're generally looking for is people who have follow-through. And so whether that's a staff or a volunteer member, especially for volunteers, it's hard to not over commit yourself. And so- Paul:  What? Renee:  What I've realized as a leader in this position that I am starting to get a sense of volunteers who really have so much passion, but maybe they're a little over-committed and how can I get them involved and how can I keep them in the family, so to speak, of the arts community and help them feel successful as well as get what we need from the project? Paul: I really liked that. I read a book last year called The New Breed of Volunteers, and it's talking about both the eldest generation and also the youngest generation that want to volunteer and how it's really a new breed nowadays that they want to do it on their time, they want to do it in nuggets, they don't want long-term commitments. And we have to, as leaders, maybe meld our volunteer opportunities to fit. So like you said, they can all be included. And I think that's a great way to do so. I love that team player is number one. And you mentioned about diversity of thought, so sometimes diversity of thought can be divisive, other times it can be a real asset. How do you see the difference when it becomes an asset? Renee:  Yeah, I think that the diversity of thought that's an asset is the one that can listen and not just hear what you're saying and respond, but really slow down and listen and absorb the other point of view. Because they still may have a dissenting view or a disagreeing view, but a lot of times we find that those individuals who maybe aren't ready to be a team player in our setting, they're just not quite ready to listen to whatever the opportunity is. Paul:  Yeah. They might have a little personal agenda that they are ... Or they're entrenched there and they're not doing the old Stephen Covey-ism, "Seek first to understand then be understood," which I still love that one. Let's stay on that topic of personnel, how do you keep them inspired and affirmed? Because volunteers could walk away tomorrow, so how do you keep them pumped up? Renee:  Paul, I have to say that I learned a lot from you in our leadership sessions during Leadership Tri-Cities. And one of the things that I really took from me in those sessions was this idea of small wins. And I've been trying it out in small doses throughout the year. And this is something that in our industry, in the arts, things rarely move quickly. Nonprofits rarely move quickly. And so there's a lot of waiting around, even when you're in the middle of the production and the show has to happen, there's still a lot of waiting around. Things just don't move quickly sometimes. And so, it's easy for people to get frustrated and to feel that pull of impatience. And I've been doing my best to find these moments of small wins and celebrate, whether it's send an email to the board and say, "We have this great connection. Please give me any feedback or let me know if you have a connection to this connection." Renee: And the other way we try to celebrate small wins is through a lot of gratitude. Thank you so much to this person for this activity, et cetera. And yeah, that small wins thing is really valuable for us. Paul: I was listening to another podcast the other day that says, "Make sure that it's clear what a win actually is in your organization because what you might as the leader think a win is and what your people think is win might be totally different things. So give them this view of what a win actually is or what done looks like when you delegate something to people so that they really get it." So let's turn to you a little bit. No one wants to get stale in leadership, so how do you stay relevant and on the cutting edge yourself? And then how does that build innovation for your organization? Renee: I thought a lot about this question and I realized the reason it was hard for me to process and answer was that it's changed a lot for me personally. As my career has changed from specific arts programming in the field of dance to a broader perspective of arts administration, that thing of not being stale has changed. And what I realize it is now is looking more globally and maybe that is for example here the state of Washington, at leaders who are doing similar things as us in this community and literally calling them up and saying, "Hi, my name is Renee and I'm from the Tri-Cities and we're working on this idea here," whether it's a joint fundraiser or an art center or a unique program, "I'd like to pick your brain a little bit." And that is very inspiring for me, because there are not a lot of other arts staff leaders in this community. The ones that there are, are amazing and we have a great network with each other, but it's so wonderful to be able to reach out to other people in other communities and find parallels. Paul:  Yeah, I just got back from the National Speakers Association conference and it's sort the same thing. If you don't have a lot of people doing exactly what you do around you, you've got to go find them and strike up those conversations and it just pumps you up because they really get what you do and they've got also some ideas, because they're a little further down the road than you in some ways and who knows? Maybe you've got some wisdom to share with them. Renee:  Right. Paul:  Well, before we get to our next question to ask Renee what makes a good day for her, let's give a shout out to our sponsors. Paul:  Jason Hoke, American Family Insurance. Jason, what is the biggest pushback you get about life insurance? Jason Hoke:  Hey Paul. One of the biggest push backs I get from life insurance is from folks that are single. They usually ask me, "Why do I even need this? I don't have kids, I don't have any dependents or a spouse, why do I need this?" Ultimately, whenever you pass on, there's going to be somebody there to pick up the pieces, there's going to be somebody to deal with your affairs and I would say it's your responsibility to make sure that there are funds, that there's money there so that person can take the time needed to go through it properly and not make it their responsibility. Paul:  Awesome, Jason, so tell us how can our listeners get in touch with you? Jason Hoke: You can swing by our office on Road 68 in Pasco, or give us a call at (509) 547-0540. Paul:  So Renee, what makes it a good day for you personally? You look back at the end of the day and you go, "Man, that was a really good day," both personally and as you just look at your workday? Renee:  I wish there was a simple way to answer this question because every day in my world looks absolutely different. I'm not sure if one day has ever looked the same. So I think I have to be a little more abstract here. For me, when I leave the 'office' which is rarely an actual office and it's rarely five o'clock, it's that feeling of yes, I communicated with all the people I needed to communicate with today. Yes, everyone feels like they got to speak their mind and share their perspective and they felt heard and I felt heard. And so it's those kind of more abstract communication-focused things that make it a good day because our journey is a long one and we have a lot of work to do to enrich our community with the arts. And so we look for that type of feeling. Paul:  So you probably use different communication methods. What are the most effective for you that you use? Renee:  Oddly enough, the most effective communication method for us is written. And we spend a lot of time writing down our ideas and writing down our thoughts, whether in emails or, for example, reports, the board that we can save in our Dropbox files. And the reason for that is because people change, board members change, volunteers change. And so to have that written communication in place of the work we've already done helps us create an archive of all of our progress. And that's really valuable. And the other thing is it's so valuable for us to be able to get in front of the community and actually talk about what we're doing, whether that's on a news clip or in podcasts or at the farmer's market or whatever it is, just getting out there and talking to people is so very important for us. And then of course the obvious one is the arts are very visual. Whether you're looking at them on a sculpture, a painting or on a stage, they are a visual thing. Paul:  So it sounds like if there are people looking for speakers for their organizations in town, you guys are game. Renee:  Absolutely. Paul: Listen for that contact information in just a few minutes. So take us behind the scenes of your life. What's your best habit, what's your worst habit? Renee:  Oh dear. Well, I have to say that my best habit is something that's a carryover from my dance career, which is just to really start every day with some physical activity. Whether that's going to the yoga studio around the corner from my house or walking my dog or maybe getting a quick jaunt weeding my garden in the morning. But what I find when I don't do those things, I get to the point where I can't focus on my day. One of my worst habits is that I tend to be a workhorse, and so sometimes that means I get stuck in the weeds. Sometimes that means even though I can see the big picture, I drill down on something too specific and I go down that windy path that's not helpful. And without a lot of other staff support around on a daily basis, sometimes it's easy to do that. And so that can be one of my worst habits, is not slowing down enough to look at the big picture consistently. Paul:  So if our listeners had that same malady and they got stuck down in the weeds and realize, we're in the bottom of a hole, what advice would you give them to pull out of that once they're self-aware enough to realize, wow, I'm way down deep? Renee:  Yeah, I'm at the bottom of the hole. My recommendation is to surround yourself with people who are not necessarily better than you, but have different skills and characteristics than you. And I really rely on the supportive committees in our organizations to bounce ideas off and, "Hey, don't let me get too far on this idea if it's a bad one." Paul:  A favorite quote that you have. Renee: Paul, I wrote this quote for you because it is my very favorite quote. It's actually a mission statement of a theater company in Chicago. It's called The Looking Glass Theater. And the quote says, "Fire the imagination with love. Celebrate the human capacity to taste and smell, weep and laugh, create and destroy. And wake up where we first fell, changed, charged and empowered". Paul:  Well it's pretty obvious why you would choose that, but what does that mean to you? Renee:  To me that means that each day is an opportunity to be creative and to welcome the day with this fiery energy that I find is really important in my work. It helps people connect to me, it helps me connect to them. And this quote reminds me that it's okay to cry and it's okay to destroy and it's okay to have these moments that aren't always beautiful, that it's about the journey. Paul: Let me follow up on that. So if someone says, "I'm not really creative," I mean you are naturally, and what would you say? How can they stoke their creativity? Is there a habit that people can do to do that better? Renee:  I love the idea of thinking about our daily lives as creativity, and how is it that we ... What are the things we find joy in that are sort of mundane, like cleaning the counter and putting away the dishes. And it's not necessarily that we do those things artistically, so to speak, but creativity is often something that's born out of routine. And so finding the joy in those routines I think often allows us to be creative. Paul: I love that. Finding the joy in the routine. How about your favorite book that you think all of our listeners should read? Renee: So I recently read a book by Brené Brown called Daring Greatly, and I'm sure many people have read that book. And I love the idea of thinking about vulnerability and thinking about ourselves as whole people, not just as people that go to work and then people who go home to our families and then people who go to the grocery store, but that all of our experiences summarize us at each moment in each day. Paul:  Daring Greatly, Brené Brown. And she wrote one recently, Dare to Lead as well that I read. How about an influencer in town that every Tri-Citian should meet? Renee:  Now, I may be biased from my arts perspective, but if you have not met Deborah and Joel Rogo who own the Tri-Cities Academy of Ballet, and Debra is the artistic director of Mid-Columbia Ballet, then you are missing out. These are really influential people, their history and their past is rich and they bring so much experience and professionalism to the community here in Tri-Cities. And we're just so grateful to have them here. Paul:  Sound like cool people. Renee:  They are very cool people. Paul: Now let's talk your legacy. If you left a letter on your desk for the leader who came after you, what would it say? Renee: So I think today that I've spent a lot of time talking about the connections and who are the people, as you said, on the bus or in the room. And for me, that letter or that legacy for future leaders is really think about who you have surrounding you. And for me, that's always about finding people to surround me that I want to look up to, that I want to emulate. They have qualities that are ... Have more experience than me, they have different experience than me. And so, to me, that's really important in any position in our life, but also as a leader, that we're looking for people who are better than us so that we can continue to grow. Paul:  Fantastic. I got to hear John Maxwell live at this conference I went to recently and he got the Influencer of the Year award from the National Speakers Association, and he has the law of the inner circle, which says, "Your success is determined by those you surround yourself with." So that really backs up what you just said. Renee:   Yes. Paul:  Finally, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence? Renee:  Yeah, I wrote down the word gems in my notes, as in sparkly stones. And I don't think that the path is always obvious as we go on in our career and our lives and search for leadership opportunities. I think that we walk a path and we have a choice, the right path or the left path, and neither is wrong and we just take one and then we look for the gems along the way. And when we look at it that way, we don't get stunted by fear. We don't stop because we can't be perfect, and it's more about the journey and the exploration and the experience than it is about the perfection. Paul:  Tri-City listeners, look for the gyms along the way. So Renee, how can our listeners best connect with you? Renee:  Probably the best way to connect with me is over email at artscentertaskforce@gmail.com or through a phone call at (509) 6019-98546. Paul:  Well, thanks again for all you do to make the Tri-Cities a great place and keep leading well. Renee:  Thanks for having me, Paul. Paul:  Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. It is the emotional index quiz. You go over to lifecoach.com and you go into the free quizzes section and this emotional index quiz is 100 questions, takes about 20 to 30 minutes to do and it's to figure out the underlying needs that drive your behavior. This is essential for each of us to identify because there might be some changes that need to be made to get a little bit more emotionally healthy. Again, lifecoach.com, free quizzes. Paul:  And don't forget to consider patronizing our sponsors of Tri-City Influencer Gravis Law And Jason Hogue, American Family Insurance. Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road to help you make a difference in your circle of influence, it's a quote by former Dallas Cowboys coach, Tom Landry, "A winner never stops trying." Keep growing forward. Speaker 3:  If you enjoy this podcast or it piqued your interest in learning more about leadership and self-leadership, you can continue to glean from Paul and his growing forward services. Check out Paul's blog and the products, tips and tools on his website at www.paulcasey.org and opt into his target practice inspirational E-newsletter. You'll get his 33 top tips for becoming a time management rock star when you subscribe and consider buying one of his three books. The most recent one being Leading the Team You've Always Wanted. Paul:  This podcast has been produced by Bonsai Audio at Fuse Coworking Space.  

Welcome back, Fair Listeners! This week we're chatting about a Christmas decoration disaster, some charities we love, and Miller gets worked up about an ill spoken Youtuber. Tune in, listen to the madness, and laugh with us! Want to donate to St. Vincent de Paul? You can do that here: http://svdpdsm.org and click the DONATE button at the top right!

This week we’ve laid bait of Guinness and Rosé to snare the man who launched his agency from his front room whilst sitting in his pants, the day after he called his old boss a ‘cock’. It can only be Paul Mellor.   Taking the piss out of the industry whilst on the piss with our podcast host Giles, it’s a wonder how they actually finished with a fully recorded episode. Paul takes us on a riotous ride on how he went from working in a coleslaw and potato salad factory (yep, you heard that right) to running one of the best brand and ad agencies in London. Topics and targets rattled through also include; why advertising is shit and how it can be better, Pot Noodles, how brands can achieve genuine stand out by risk taking, and the wildly successful ‘Take Fucking Risks’ speaker series Paul founded, with guests like Bob Hoffman, Dave Trott, Cindy Gallop, and Grace Dent.   The first Call to Action podcast to require a health warning, the fumes from this episode alone could damage your liver whilst also serving as a slap about the face to start you smashing up anything bland and beige, and to just start taking some fucking risks. ///// Paul: You can follow him on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulmellor1) . And his agency Mellor&Smith on the Twitter (https://twitter.com/mellorandsmith) . And we’ll give you their website (https://mellorandsmith.com/) for a full house.   Book Recommendation: Life’s A Pitch – Then You Buy (https://www.amazon.com/Lifes-Pitch-Then-You-Buy/dp/0385507534) by Don Peppers Creative Blindness (https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Blindness-How-Cure-remarkable/dp/0857197304) by Dave Trott One Plus One Equals Three (https://www.amazon.com/One-Plus-Equals-Three-Masterclass/dp/1447287053) by Dave Trott Creative Mischief (https://www.amazon.com/Creative-Mischief-Dave-Trott-ebook/dp/B005RSYF6A) by Dave Trott Damn Good Advice (https://www.amazon.com/Damn-Good-Advice-People-Talent/dp/0714863483) by George Lois Nobody Wants to Read Your Sh*t (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nobody-Wants-Read-Your-Sh-ebook/dp/B01GZ1TJBI) by Steven Pressfield /////

This week, Car Con Carne crosses over with the "Make Us a Mixtape" podcast, hosted by comedians Paul Faravhar and Marty DeRosa. The premise is simple: Their weekly guest makes them a 5-song mixtape and they collectively talk about the tape, song by song. I chose "Chicago music" as my theme. Here's what we talked about this week, over food from Big & Littles: Paul says Portillo's makes the best Chicago burger. Marty: "(Picking Portillo's as the best) is a coward's move." The art of crafting a mixtape. The tyranny of "Make Us a Mixtape"s rules. Guilty pleasures: Are they bullshit? How do you eat your food? One item at a time? My love of Kuma's. My first playlist created for this episode, which was rejected. The quintessential Chicago band when I was young: Naked Raygun. The appeal of "album play" concerts. Paul doesn't know his Adam Ant history. I assigned him homework. The 90s in Chicago music. Paul blames record companies for shitty music. Indie rock is alive and well in Chicago. Guitars are alive and well in Chicago. James: "I hate Lollapalooza." Paul (shocked): "WHY?" Paul likes going to Lollapalooza to hang out in the VIP section. Paul: "Do you remember the band Live?" James: (inaudible eye roll) "I know a lot of recovering Limp Bizkit fans" The charm of AM Taxi, and their emergence from the suburban scene. The best concert I ever saw... it was a whiiiiiiile ago. Paul thought mosh pits started in the 90s. Metro is clearly the best rock club. I wasn't young enough or punk enough for Fireside shows. The legacy of Wesley Willis. Rock over London, Rock on Chicago! Paul made a post-break-up mix tape for an ex. Marty and I understand that as being a fucked up move. Counting Crows completely fucking suck. Paul: "You have to admit that at the time, (Counting Crows)... " Me: "No." Paul: "They were the biggest thing.... " James: "No."

 In this episode of the P100 Podcast, our hosts Paul, Dan and Logan welcome Nicole Chynoweth from the Carnegie Science Center to discuss the center’s new exhibit on mummies. From there we move on to the science of fear, and then on to hockey with their guest, Jeremy Church. This episode wraps up with a review of some unique Pennsylvania town names. We bet you have your favorites.----more----Full transcript here:Logan: You are listening to the P100 podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news culture and more because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the P100 Podcast, we're happy to have you back for another episode. I am Dan Stefano, I'm here with Logan Armstrong. Logan.Logan: How's it going?Dan: A pleasure to have you with us and Paul Furiga will be joining us in a little bit. Today's episode we're going to be talking about mummies. Not your mothers, not like that Logan. I see you, that's what you're thinking. No, just having a pleasant thought, thinking about dear old mom. No, Okay.Dan: Now, we're actually going to be talking about the mummies that you might think of whenever you think of ancient Egypt and other parts of the world here. There's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center - Mummies of the World, and we're really excited to talk with someone from the Science Center about that.Dan: Afterward, we're going to be discussing the science of fear. Keeping with us, somewhat of a Halloween type of theme here. Then, we're going to be talking about, what everybody knows, it's the beginning of hockey season. Logan, you excited about that?Logan: No. Dan: No. You're not excited about hockey. Okay. Well, I am and some other people in the office, and we're going to be talking with one of them about the growth of youth hockey in the region, which is really something that's taken off in the past few couple of decades here in Pittsburgh. And we're going to finish up with Logan and I being just as serious we are now. We're going to talk about strange Pennsylvania town names. So if you make it to the end, you're going to be in for treat on that one.Logan: Oh yeah. Stay tuned.Dan: Okay, so let's get going. All right guys, for this segment we're going to talk about mummies. In particular, mummies of the world, the exhibition. It's a new exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center and from the Science Center, we have Nicole Chynoweth. Nicole, thanks for being here.Nicole: Thank you for having me.Dan: Absolutely. Thanks for being with us here. And can we talk a little bit about your own role within the Science Center here. Can you tell us your position and a little bit what you do?Nicole: Sure. So, I'm the manager of marketing, public relations, and social media with a focus on exhibits and the Rangos Giants Cinema.Dan: Great. What does that entail then? I mean, that I imagine you you are working with a lot of different positions there. Right?Nicole: Yeah, it's a really fun job. I get my hands in everything from new movies that we have coming out at the Rangos, educational films to the exciting new exhibits that we're bringing to the science center, from space topics, planetarium related things, and mummies-Dan: Really cool, it seems like a fun place to work. Right?Paul: Nicole, you've had your hands in the mummies?Nicole: No.Paul: Okay. The promotion of the mummies.Dan: The promotion of the mummies. Paul: I'm sure we'll talk about some of the technical aspects, but that would seem a little gross, but...Nicole: I don't think so. I find the exhibition more fascinating than I do creepy. And I'm not a fan of scary movies or I did not watch the Brendan Fraser mummy movie.Paul: You didn't?Nicole: No interest in that.Paul: I did watch those.Dan: You're missing out on a classic from the 1990s.Paul: Yeah. Well, classic is a little strong-Dan: I think it should have won an Oscar, but that's just me.Paul: Okay, Dan. We'll talk about that another time. So Nicole, when I think of the science center, I think about some of the other things you mentioned. Space, technology, mummies?Nicole: Yes, mummies are, especially this show, the mummies featured in Mummies of the World, the exhibition is, have so much to offer in terms of scientific, anatomical, biological information that we can still learn from today. So what I find really exciting about the mummies of the world is that it focuses on both natural mummification and intentional mummification. So, you might be more familiar with intentional mummification. That's the type that was [crosstalk 00:04:15] practicing in ancient Egypt. Correct.Nicole: And we do have some examples of Egyptian mummification in the show, but this also takes a look at the natural mummification process that can happen when conditions are at such a level moisture wise, temperature-wise that is able to naturally mummify a body, be it animal or human.Dan: Right. Well, it sounds like some pretty amazing things to see...Paul: Yeah, it's fascinating.Dan: What are some examples maybe of the intended mummification that we'd see there? I mean, is there anything from, I guess everybody knows about Egyptian mummies but then, they're also South American. What else might you see?Nicole: So an interesting example of the intentional mummification process that aside from like the Egyptian mummies that are featured in the show, there is Mumab, also known as the Maryland Mummy. In the nineties, two scientists at the University of Maryland decided that they wanted to try their hand at an Egyptian mummification process. A man had donated his body to science, and so they started the process of mummifying him. So, you can see Mumab in the show.Nicole: That's just an interesting way of seeing how we are still learning thousands and thousands of years later about how this process works and the tools that they had to use to complete the process and what the body has to go through for mummification to occur.Dan: That's really cool.Paul: Did it work?Nicole: I've been told that it's still in process, it's not completely... He's not completely mummified yet.Paul: Take some time?Nicole: Yes.Paul: Wow. Something I never knew.Dan: That's pretty awesome. Can you tell us what else is in the exhibit then? I mean, are there any, you say interactive portions to it. What should people and families expect whenever they're inside here. It's not just, as you'd be at a museum taking a look. I mean one of the great things about the science center is it kind of hands-on.Paul: Hands-on. Yeah.Nicole: Yes. So in addition, to the 40 animal and human mummies and 85 rare related artifacts, visitors will also be able to look through several interactives related to different topics within mummification. I think a favorite among children will definitely be the, what does mummy feel like a station where you can touch different types of mummified materials, so there's like frog skin, fur. Mummified fur, different things like that they'll be able to touch these like textile panels that are examples of what those things feel like.Nicole: Another great interactive is there's a large map that shows where different types of mummies have been found all over the world, which I think is really important to look at from the perspective of which, like you said, we are so used to just thinking about Egyptian mummies.Paul: Yes.Nicole: And really there are mummies all over the world, [crosstalk 00:07:15].Paul: So not to be surprised?Nicole: Yeah.Paul: You never know where you might find a mummy!Nicole: Right, right.Dan: Okay. Well, people will hear, we can see Mummies of the World through April 19th that's correct, right?Nicole: Correct. Open through April 19th. It takes about 60 to 90 minutes to get through the exhibition, for parents that are maybe wondering if the exhibition is appropriate for their children. We do have a family guide available at carnegiesciencecenter.org/mummies, that might answer some of the questions parents have before they take their kids to the exhibition.Nicole: But I really believe that it is appropriate for all ages and I think people will take something away from the show, be it a new interest in archeology or anthropology or just being able to connect with the backstories of the mommies that are featured in the show. You get to know them. They're more than just a mummy in front of you. You learn their story, how they lived, the way they lived, where they were from. So, super excited to have it at the science center and to be able to offer this experience to Pittsburghers.Dan: That's great. Anything else happen at the science center lately?Nicole: Yes. So, it's Halloween season.Dan: Yes.Nicole: What better time than to experience a scary movie on Pittsburgh's largest screen?Paul: Very good.Nicole: The Rangos Strengths Cinema teamed up with Scare House, this year actually for Rangos x Scare House. We co-curated some Halloween movies together to offer Pittsburgh a really exciting lineup for the Halloween seasons. So we have coming up the Universal Studios Classic Monsters. We're showing the Creature from the Black Lagoon, Frankenstein and Dracula, on October 11th through the 13th.Nicole: We also have Dawn of the Dead 3D showing October 25th and the 26th. And that's a really exciting screening because they don't often show the 3D version. So if you've seen Dawn the Dead before, I can guarantee you have not seen it like this.Dan: This is the original one?Nicole: Yes. This is the original Dawn of the dead. Yes.Paul: In 3D.Nicole: In 3D.Paul: Have you seen it, Nicole?Nicole: I have not seen it. I'm not a huge fan of the scary movies, but I've been told that if there's one I should experience at the Rangos this year. It's probably this one.Dan: All right? Just how big again is the Rangos?Nicole: So we are a certified giant screen. The screen itself measures 72 by 38 feet.Paul: Wow.Nicole: We also have 45 surround sound speakers. Your average theater has 14.Paul: Dan, if you and I can get that past our spouses and into our basements. I think that'll be good.Dan: I might have to tear down a wall or two in my basement, but I think I can handle it.Paul: You know, it's all about the purpose, Dan.Dan: You know what, we're trying to fix more damage to begin with. So I think I could get this Rangos a screen down here. That'd be perfect.Paul: It'd be very nice.Dan: Nicole, how can people find out more about the Carnegie Science Center, both online and in social media?Nicole: Sure. Visit us at carnegiesciencecenter.org or find us on Facebook. Carnegie Science Center or Twitter and Instagram @Carnegie S-C-I-C-T-R.Dan: Okay. Thanks so much for coming on Nicole. We appreciate it.Nicole: Thank you.Paul: Yes.Dan: All right guys. We were just talking about mummies and now we're going to... mummies, if you'll look back at it, they're famous movie monsters, some of the old ones from the 30s, some of the more recent mummy movies and whatnot.Paul: Brendan Fraser.Dan: Exactly, yeah. I love those horror movies and I love being scared. I love this time of year whenever we get a chance to go out to a haunted house. Me and my wife try to do one at least once a year. She's not wild about them, but I have a great time. Even right now in a couple of days. I believe the scare house is going to be reopening the scare houses. One of the more popular attractions around the area of this third winter.Paul: Award-winning.Dan: Award-winning, correct. Yeah. They had to move from Etna and they're in the Strip District. I think they maybe even changed the name to reflect that, but I think, it's interesting that people love to go to these things and they're so well attended.Dan: You see the lines around the block just to be scared and so I've had a chance to go look at the psychology of fear here, and there's an interesting phenomenon that researchers have found called VANE. It's V-A-N-E, and it stands for Voluntary Arousing Negative Experiences. Logan or Paul, you guys ever felt anything like that? Do you have any voluntary experiences?Paul: Yes. Dan, some people call that work?Dan: No. Yes.Paul: I've absolutely. So, I mean, I'm the old guy in the room. You think back to when I was a teenager, the voluntary arousing negative experience was to take the date you really like to a scary movie.Dan: Okay.Paul: I think we're going to get into this Dan, some of the why this is in... Things that people will voluntarily do you, you might not have expected a certain level of affection from your date, but if you took her to a scary movie, there would be the involuntary reaction when something happened on the screen of-Dan: Them getting closer? There you go. That's clever.Paul: Yeah. Well, and it's all this time at least all the scary movies.Dan: I think, when you look at some of the research here, what they point at, one of the most important parts of that is that it `is voluntary and that people were making a conscious decision to go out and be scared. And a lot of that is about overcoming stress. And you might go in with another person, you're working together to try to get through this shared experience here, fighting the monsters, try not to punch the actors who are just trying to have a good time and scare you.Dan: But they get a chance to get outside of themselves, and as we said, face a fear and there's really a great quote here from a woman named Justine Musk. Her quote says, "Fear is a powerful beast, but we can learn to ride it". I think that's just a very good succinct way to put it. But our good friend Logan here, you were actually a psychology major for a couple of years at Pitt and you know a lot about fear.Logan: Yes. So, as you said, I was a psychology major for a few years. I really enjoy just kind of how humans work. But so basically what it is that you have a part of your brain and it's a little almond-shaped lobe called a medulla. But, so basically what happens is that you're, when you see emotions on people's faces or when you see something that would cause you to emote in a certain way.Logan: So, say you see you're out in the wild and you see a lion and you're like, well that's not good. So that message sends to your medulla, which then sends to your limbic system. And if you guys are aware of the limbic system, it's your fight or flight response.Dan: Yes, okay.Logan: When you experience these negative arousals, that kicks into high gear and that pumps adrenaline through your entire body, your pupils dilate, your bronchitis dilates, just you're in this hyper-aware zone, and that's where adrenaline junkies get it from.Logan: It's a similar thing to where you're experiencing fear where you might be scared, but your adrenaline is pumping so much and it's releasing so many endorphins and dopamine that you end up enjoying it.Dan: Well. Okay, now we know whenever we either go to a haunted house or if we go see the mummies exhibit at the Carnegie Science Center, none of us are going to be scared because we know all the science, and we just know what's going on in our brain.Paul: Well, I mean this is also why people like roller coasters shout out to the steel curtain at Kennywood. Because they know it's safe. Right?Dan: Right.Paul: The experience is scary, but it's safe. When you go and see a movie. Yes. You sure hope so. You see the movie, you know it's going to be an hour and 20 minutes or two hours or whatever and when it's over, you may have been scared during the movie, but you're okay. The same with the rollercoaster, three minutes and then you're back in line, right it again. Right? Because you've enjoyed that safe experience of being scared.Logan: And it's the same concept where it's going back to my earlier example. If you see a lion in the wild or you're going to be scared. But if you go to the zoo, you're going to think it's cute or whether somebody else tickles you, you get a reaction, but you can't tickle yourself because your brain knows it's not a threat.Dan: Well, we do see a lot of alligators on the streets of Pittsburgh these days, so I don't know. You know what I mean. Maybe we'll see a lion the next, but I don't know that's all there is to know about fear or at least a good introduction for it. So, yeah. Logan, thanks for the knowledge there.Logan: Sure thing.Dan: Yeah. Maybe you should have stayed as a psychology major.Paul: He won't be here helping us today.Dan: That's a fair point.Logan: Now he's like "you really should've stayed a psych major"Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections are made around fires. As we shared, the stories have shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At Word Wright, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency. We understand that before you had a brand before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: Word Wright helps clients to uncover their own Capital S story. The reason someone would want to buy work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process, visit wordpr.com to uncover your capitalist story.Paul: All right guys. It's a fun time of year because the penguins are back in action. We're all hoping that they can get back to the Stanley cup this year. Who better to have on our vice president Jeremy Church here at one of our vice presidents here at WordWrite. Jeremy, you're involved with hockey and can you tell us a little bit about that?Jeremy: Sure. I've been fortunate to be involved with the game for nearly 40 years now as a player and a coach. Grew up starting about eight I guess in Michigan. Then we moved here in 10 continued to play, went away to prep school and played all through prep school Junior A, was fortunate enough again to play in college and then the last 17 years at various levels. I've been able to coach.Paul: That's awesome. Yeah, Who do you coach with?Jeremy: Right now, I'm coaching my younger son. With 11 Hornets, youth hockey organization. Prior to that, I helped with the high school in Mount Lebanon for five years. Coached at Shady Side Academy for a year and again using the word fortunate was able to go back to the Prep school. I played at Culver Military Academy and coached there for six years and it's a pretty storied program.Paul: That's fair and awesome. Well, Pittsburgh's got a long history in hockey going back to the turn of the century here, pretty much and but from a lot of people, the history and hockey didn't start until Mario Lemieux got here in the early eighties and Jeremy have a fun story about Mario Lemieux actually.Jeremy: I do. There've been two big booms locally when it comes to the growth of the sport. And certainly the first one had to have been when Merrill was drafted back in 1984 so we had just moved here from outside of Detroit and moved to the South Hills and we went to South Hills village one day and the mall was still there. At the time it was Kaufman's Department Store, which is no longer there.Paul: Oh yeah, the mall's there now just no Kaufmann's.Jeremy: So we're walking through and there's a little table set up and there are two or three people sitting there, one of them towers over all the others. And as we get closer and closer, there's no line at all. Mind you, it's Mario Lemieux sitting there signing autographs before he'd ever played a game.Jeremy: So, we walked up to the table, got his autograph. He still really couldn't speak English that well. But if you could imagine today the kind of stir it would create if Mario were around talking at to anyone in any environment. It was the exact opposite back then. I still have the autograph today.Paul: What did you get autographed?Jeremy: They had little teeny pamphlets of him in his Junior A Laval and from the Quebec Major Junior League Jersey, and that's all they had to sign. I think it was him. And it might've been Paul Steigerwald because at the time he was head of showing Mario around town and Mario, for those who don't remember when he was 18 actually lived with a host family in Mount Lebanon for the first year that he was here when he was 18.Paul: Yeah. Well, like I said it, whenever he first got here, he lived with Lemieux.Jeremy: Yeah, he returned the favor.Paul: Well, since that day, whenever there was no line at Kauffman's, today there was no more Kauffman's and you would have a gigantic line. But so what can you say about just seeing the growth of hockey? Especially from a youth hockey angle here, you've been front and center with it your entire life?Jeremy: It's pretty remarkable. Doing a little research earlier and in 1975 there were basically two rinks that you could play out of indoor rinks for Youth Hockey: Rostraver Gardens, which is still around and Mount Lebanon Recreation Center, which is still around.Jeremy: By 1990, when I was in high school, there were 10 and now that figure is roughly doubled to around 20 in the region. There are 62 high school teams and there are 28 organizations in the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League. And within the Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League, there are now 5,600 players. And that's for those who are around playing in the eighties or growing up in the eighties and early nineties here, that's almost hard to believe there's, you know that there are 28 organizations, but if you go down through the ranks of 18 and under 16 and under 14, 12, ten eight and under age groups, there's dozens and dozens of teams at various levels all throughout that.Jeremy: So, for last year at the ten-year level, ten-year-old level, there were 80 plus 10 new teams in PAHL, Pittsburgh Amateur Hockey League League. So pretty remarkable.Paul: Right, Yeah. The majority of those kids, they're probably not going to be heading to the NHL, but a lot of kids want to at least, pretend that they're one of their heroes and get involved in the game. And I think one of the problems, maybe not a problem with hockey, but one of the issues surrounding it is there is a perception that there is a bit of a barrier to entry. You've got to have skates, you've got to have pads, you've got to have a good helmet, you've got to have a good stick. There's a lot of, there's a lot to that kit there. Jeremy, there are easier ways for kids to get involved in the game today though, right?Jeremy: Yes. Part of the Testament to the Penguins organization and certainly as Sidney Crosby has been, his emphasis and involvement with youth programs and youth hockey initiatives. And not just in Pittsburgh, but I know as well back when he returns to Canada in the summer and throughout the year, he likes to give back to the community.Jeremy: But a big initiative that started, it's now celebrating it's 10 year anniversary or 11 year anniversary is the little Penguins learn to play hockey, where Sid partnered with Dick's sporting goods to give, what is now I believe more than a thousand sets of free equipment out to kids who want to start playing the sport. So that goes hand in hand with a program that I think runs six weeks, eight weeks, in January, February to get kids introduced to hockey.Jeremy: But to your point in that, the big barrier to entry is the cost of equipment, which can be several hundred dollars even for kids that are five, six, seven years old. So that's certainly got a lot of kids involved in the game and has led to those massive increases in participation that I cited before.Paul: All right, that's awesome, Jeremy. Well, thanks so much for coming in and talking to us about hockey. We're hoping for another good season from the Penguins. Maybe a longer playoff run than last year. We got a bit of a break last year. I think they earned it after winning a couple of cups. But yeah, thanks again and yeah, we'll talk to you soon.Jeremy: No problem. Thanks to you.Dan: Right. This next segment. We're going to learn a little more about our co-host Logan Armstrong. Logan is from Eighty Four, PA.Logan: That I am.Dan: Now, we got talking about this and it got us, we started, you know, going down a rabbit hole and we got discussing why 84 was actually named 84? At first, I thought it was named after the construction company the-Logan: 84 Lumber.Dan: Yeah, 84 Lumber, and it turns out I was wrong. That 84 is named after 84 PA, and there's a lot of history and a lot of different theories about how the town was named. Logan, do you want to go through some of them maybe?Logan: Yeah, sure. So there are a couple theories. 84 is quite the town. There's not much in it other than 84 Lumber, but you know, it's nice. There are a lot of theories on how it was named, the most popular of which is that it commemorated Grover Cleveland's 1884 election victory. Some other theories were that it's on mile 84 of the railway mail service. My favorite though is that it's located at 80 degrees and four minutes West longitude. This seems like the most probable to me.Dan: My favorite actually is apparently in 1869 general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton had an outfit of 84 soldiers with them and held off an attack of Outlaws. Now that just sounds fantastic. Yeah.Logan: That sounds quite heroic. If that is the case. I am proud to be from 84 PA.Dan: Maybe you're a descendant of general David "Crazy Legs" Hamilton here. Is that possible?Logan: Yeah. I believe I'm Logan "Crazy Toes" Armstrong.Dan: Okay, keep your shoes on man! We don't want to see anything. Well, after this, after we talked about 84 we also started taking a look at some other weird names for towns in Pennsylvania here and if you go online, you can find quite a few of them. Logan, what were some of the interesting ones you like you?Logan: There are quite a few to choose from. A couple of my favorites were, while the all known intercourse, PA, which is actually the most stolen sign in Pennsylvania, where it says "Welcome to Intercourse" for good reason.Dan: Obvious reasons.Logan: Right. Going along that same route, a rough and ready PA was, they named it after a California Gold Rush town, so I guess they're rough and ready to get some gold out there. Can't blame them for that.Dan: I imagine that sign is also been stolen many times.Logan: Right. Okay. Then, well, let's play a game here. I'm going to give you some Pennsylvania town names and you're going to tell me how you think that those names came to be. How's that sound?Dan: Bring them on. I'm a repository of knowledge.Logan: Okay, great. Peach Bottom.Dan: Peach Bottom. This is simple. This is extremely simple. Everybody in the town of Peach Bottom is very short, and they're, but they're also Peach farmers, so they can only see the bottom of the peaches that come from the trees. It's kind of a shame because they've never seen the peach tops.Logan: That is a shame. Those peach tops are so beautiful.Dan: We have an actual reason why it's called Peach Bottom?Logan: In fact, Dan, you weren't too far off, Peach Bottom. Got its name in 1815 from a peach orchard owned by a settler named John Kirk.Dan: John Kirk was very short, as we all know.Logan: Right? Yes. Okay. Shickshinny, Pennsylvania. What do you think of that?Dan: Schickshinny. Ah, got it. Okay. Shickshinny is named after a famous dance created by the person who created Schick shaving blades. Fun fact, a few people realize that he had a dance. Whenever he would cut his face on his old rusty blades, he would do a little jig-Logan: A little jig!Dan: In a big thing because it can... to get the pain away, and so he decided I've got to create a better, more comfortable blade and so he created the Schick shaving blade.Logan: Well, I foresee-Dan: Everybody knows this.Logan: I've foreseen the future...We had the Whip, we had the Nae Nae. Next, we're going to have the Shickshinny going on in all the clubs in Pittsburgh.Dan: I think this one is actually one of those Indian words that have made a lot of Pennsylvania names here.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It looks like an Indian word that either means the land of mountains or land of the fine stream.Dan: Or land of the cutting your face on your favorite razor.Logan: Yeah, I think that's the most common translation. Yeah.Dan: Sure.Logan: We are well beyond 100 words today. Thank you for listening to the P100 podcast. This has been Dan Stefano, Logan Armstrong, and Paul Furiga. If you haven't yet, please subscribe at P100podcast.com or wherever you listen to podcasts, and follow us on Twitter @Pittsburgh100_, for all the latest news updates and more, from the Pittsburgh 100.

In episode 107, I'm talking with Paul Tough about his latest book, The Years That Matter Most: How college makes or breaks us, a powerful mind-changing inquiry into higher education in the United States. We talk about the state of higher education today and how can we help more young Americans achieve success. Big Ideas Paul Tough's book examines the relationship between higher education and social mobility in the United States today and explores these questions: Does college still work? Is our system of high education fair? How can we help more young Americans achieve success? In the past, higher education was the great engine of social mobility but that relationship has broken down. Today it is viewed by many as an obstacle to social mobility. The most selective institutions, with the biggest endowments and budgets, almost exclusively educate affluent students, while low-income students mostly go to less selective community colleges and regional public universities that spend much less on each student and have much lower graduation rates. Studies show that some institutions spend as little as $4,000 a year per student compared to $150,000 or more on each student at elite, selective colleges. More money per student is spent in public high schools than in most public colleges. In the wealthiest zip codes, more students receive testing accommodations for learning differences than students from less affluent zip codes, which seems like one more advantage for the people who need them the least. While colleges strive to differentiate themselves by their facilities, endowments, and many other attributes, the ethical character of the institution should also be considered. Higher education is not a consumer good, it is a collective good. Tough proposes 3 solutions: Institutional change -- the level of admissions at private institutions needs to change. There should be pressure on them to admit more low-income students. Families should consider the global implication of their decisions and allow the culture to shift away from 'what's better for me' in the short-term to 'what's better for society' in the long-term. Public institutions need more funding and investment so that they can accommodate more low-income students and so that tuition rates don't continue to rise. Although the College Board has tried to change public opinion, they continue to be a force for inequity. The fact remains, the more money you have, the higher your test scores. Standardized test scores need to be given less weight. Test-optional institutions found that they were able to admit more low-income, first-generation students who graduate and succeed at the same rate as other students. Quotes Paul: "I think we have set up this system and there's no one villain that's responsible for the system. We all made it. It has inequities baked into and they're getting worse. It's clear now that there's this kind of stratification of institutions of higher education." Paul: "We've heard a lot about how high tuition is at those private institutions, but the reality is that those institutions are losing money on each student. They spend more on each student than they bring in. That's because they believe it's going to pay off in the future when those alumni become rich donors." Paul: "What is most remarkable to me about those numbers is that we pay for kids all the way through high school and then when they get to this more complicated, sophisticated, essential training for them to get ready for the workplace, we suddenly say, you can get by on a quarter as much as we were spending on you last year." Audrey: "Our kids have gone to very good schools, and they chose them, but we weren't willing to jump through the hoops that we saw other people doing in order to get their kids into those (elite) schools. I was very put off by a lot of the ways other families dealt with things, especially around test prep." Paul: "The overall fact that I think is so critical is that in reality, those students who are admitted to the most selective institutions are, as adults, making the most money." Paul: "The reality is if you are a student at Stanford, if you work at Stanford, if you're part of that world, you are taking part in a system that is making the country more unfair. That's not just a Stanford thing. That's a reality at any of the similarly selective institutions." Paul: "This generation of young people thinks about ethics, morality, and justice a lot and they should." Paul: "The way they talk about race, identity, climate--it's inspiring. This is a generation that is putting ethics, and figuring out how to do the right thing, at the top of their priority list." Paul: "When we look at higher education, we've been trained to see it as something that is a consumer good. If your kids benefit, then my kids fail. If my kids benefit, your kids lose out. That is not the way we used to think about higher education. It was a collective good." Paul: "Considering the ethical quality of the system you're working in, and the system that you are applying to, is a really important consideration and I wouldn't be surprised if more and more young people start thinking about it." Audrey: "We need high performing students at all the universities because that makes it more equitable. So if you're a super bright kid, you can actually benefit some of these larger public institutions in different states by getting some more brains there." Paul: "In the fifties and sixties, students were choosing their colleges just based mostly on geography and as a result colleges were more like high schools. There was a mix of different performers--A students, B students, and C students--but then something changed. Those high performing students started to cluster together at just a few institutions." Paul: "The algorithm that has been drummed into those students' heads is you just have to go to the most exclusive, most selective institution that will admit you. That worldview has created this stratification that is now so common in higher education." Audrey: "Our kids are going to public institutions, not in our own state, which is crazy when you think about it. That is what a lot of families I know do because their kids can't get into the same schools that we went to when we were going to college." Paul: "When we took that public funding away from the institutions in our own states, one solution they had was to begin admitting more out-of-state students because in-state tuition is less than out-of-state tuition...it just doesn't have the same kind of alignment between the mission (of public education) and the reality as I think it used to." Paul: "The reality is that nothing's changed in terms of the relationship between the SAT and our class structure. Test scores on the SAT correlate highly with family income: the more money you have, the more likely you are to get a high test score." Paul: "I think we need to be honest about the relationship between family income and SAT scores. Institutions need to find some way to take a more reasonable view of what those tests can do. We've given them way too much importance in our system." Audrey: "I agree, they don't really predict anything. I've been working more on kids' social skills and character development because those things end up making kids more successful in their jobs and roles, wherever they went to college or whatever they majored in." Paul: "You can sympathize with an admissions officer...All of this other stuff that we know is much more important in terms of evaluating a child and their potential is harder to put numbers on, harder to compare, whereas those numbers (test scores) just seem so tempting, so scientific. They look so nice." Audrey: "This competitive thing just goes on at every level, whether it's the kids applying or the schools trying to have the highest averages, entering SAT and all that stuff." Audrey: "I do think we need some major overhaul. Hopefully, 'varsity blues' and some of these things in your book will get us back on track so that our higher education system is doing what it's supposed to be doing for our country." More from Paul Tough "Working on this book was a remarkable experience: It took me six years to complete, and I reported in twenty-one states. The best part was getting to meet and hear the stories of so many remarkable young people — from the South Bronx to the affluent suburbs of D.C. to the Appalachian foothills of North Carolina — all of them trying to figure out how best to negotiate a path through the sometimes-treacherous landscape of American higher education. In the book, I tell their stories — sometimes joyful, sometimes heart-rending, sometimes infuriating — and I do my best to place those stories into a larger context. I talked to dozens of economists and sociologists and educators who helped me understand why our system of colleges and universities functions the way it does — and why it so often seems unbalanced and unfair." -Paul Tough PBS News Hour: Admissions scandal highlights 'disconnect' between colleges' message and action Amazon: The Years That Matter Most: How College Makes or Breaks Us Paultough.com Paul Tough on Facebook Paul Tough on Twitter Paul's Speaking Engagements NYT Book Review Related Podcasts & Posts If you liked this podcast episode, listen to: Ep. 79: Thoughts on the College Admissions Scandal Ep. 34: Advice on College, Transferring, and How to Support Your Kids with Their Decisions Ep. 21 Advice for the College Application and Selection Process Read Conversations before College: WHO you are matters more than WHERE you go Don't miss my Happier in Hollywood Podcast: Ep. 123 Happy Camper at Work

Welcome to another episode of the P100 Podcast. Today we cover our own Port Authority. Robin Rectenwald shares with us some local getaways inside tips. Director, Dawn Keezer from the Pittsburgh Film Office talks about on location in Pittsburgh. This episode winds up with Pittsburgh Polyphony spotlight - Flower Crown.This Episode is sponsored by WordWriteCenturies before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.Here is the full transcript from this episode:Logan: You're listening to the P100 Podcast, the biweekly companion piece to the Pittsburgh 100, bringing you Pittsburgh news, culture, and more. Because sometimes 100 words just aren't enough for a great story.Dan: All right. Welcome back to another episode of The P100 Podcast. I'm Dan Stefano. I'm here with Logan Armstrong.Logan: Good to see you again, Dan.Dan: And Paul Furiga, who'll be joining us just momentarily.Dan: Today's episode, we've got four segments for you. First, we're going to be discussing public transportation in both Pittsburgh and other American cities. We're going to talk with Dawn Keezer of the Pittsburgh Film Office, which will be a lot of fun. It was a really good chat with her. We're going to discuss quick getaways you can take outside of Pittsburgh. Sometimes you got to get away, and we'll be talking with Robin Rectenwald of WordWrite for that one, and then we'll finish it up with talking about a good local Pittsburgh band for our Pittsburgh polyphony series. Excited to hear that, so let's get to it.PORT AUTHORITYPaul: All right guys. Let's talk planes, trains, and autonomous automobiles. A little shout out there to the old John Candy movie.Dan: That's a classic movie.Paul: It is a classic movie.Dan: Steve Martin too, right?Paul: Steve Martin, that's right. Yes indeed.Logan:Much before my time.Paul:Oh, you got to see that movie.Dan: Logan, you weren't even alive.Paul: You weren't alive, but you can stream it.Dan: Is it John Hughes?Paul: Yes. I think it's a John Hughes film actually, one of the-Dan: Okay. See, I know my movie stuff.Paul: ... few he did in that era when it wasn't all about teen angst. But speaking of teen angst and public transportation, it seems like a perennial topic in the news in Pittsburgh, is how to get from point A to point B. And I just don't mean the topography. For instance, if you drew my street on a map, it would look like a lasso, you know the old cowboy thing?Dan: Sure.Paul: You can get onto Courtney Place, the street I live on, and turn left on Courtney Place and go around a circle and turn left, and you're still on Courtney Place. That's another issue. What we're talking about today is, maybe because of things like that, how difficult it is to get from point A to point B. And the importance of public transportation.Paul: And so, recently Dan, Logan, we were looking at the news about the Port Authority starting or considering some 24-hour transit routes. And Logan, I know you're an Oakland denizen, some of those routes would head out that way, that we'd start with you. Thoughts?Logan: Yeah, I'd be a big fan of that. I know that they're only considering really the heavier routes, which obviously make sense. You don't want to have empty buses going all night, but I think that would be really helpful.Logan: I know there have been a few times where, whether I'm in Oakland or elsewhere past midnight or so, I mean, it gets pretty scarce trying to get to point A to point B, and there are Uber and Lyft, but Pitt students have Pitt IDs and they get free Port Authority rides, and so, I mean, you're going to expect college students to be out pretty late, so I think they should be able to take advantage of that. So I think it's a great idea.Dan: Well, it's not only for the college students too. I believe one of the aims behind the Port Authority trying this is to help people who might work late shift. Those late shift workers who, maybe they're not done until 2:00 or 3:00, and they're working at least on some areas near these routes and it really helps them, and I think they're important to have for modern city living.Paul: You know, one of the challenges that we've had in the last several years is funding for public transportation. I think that still is a huge issue. Now we have competition for public transportation.Paul: Logan, you mentioned ride sharing, Lyft or Uber. And of course Pittsburgh is a hotbed for autonomous vehicle development, and it made a bit of news a few weeks ago when the CEO of one of the companies here in Pittsburgh that are testing autonomous vehicles, Argo AI, wrote a medium blog post in which he said that that company will never build autonomous vehicles for personal use.Paul: And I think a lot of people were figuring that, again, remember my street, it goes in a circle, that Uber and all of them were here because they were ... If you can figure out how to drive in Pittsburgh in an autonomous vehicle, you could drive anywhere in an autonomous vehicle.Paul: I don't know. Dan, what do you think? Autonomous vehicles in your garage? Yes? No?Dan: I don't know. Maybe a personal vehicle…that'd be a difficult buy-in. I think it's one of those things where just in my life I've always had a car that I drive myself. I mean, obviously if, say in the future there are babies that are born that only know autonomous vehicles and might be used to it for them.Dan: But I can say that I have been in an autonomous car. And I've had the AI driving me around. I took an Uber once that was an AI car, and obviously there were two people in the front seats, one behind the wheel who just had, was a little bit hands-off, and then another with the computer taking in all the data. It was a really cool experience.Dan: But one part that, at one moment we were driving through, I believe it was Bloomfield or somewhere along Baum Boulevard, and we came to one of those classic Pittsburgh 19-streets-meet-at-once intersections. And there was somebody coming in the opposing lane who had made a sharp cut in front of us. And the car made a really sudden stop. And so, I was talking with the operators about it and they said one of the problems that, problems or issues or minor things is, these AI, they still have to take into account other people's decisions. And that's really where I think that that's where the work has got to be done yet, in autonomous vehicles here.Dan: And so, it's going to be tough if not every car out there is going to be driven by another robot, you know?Paul: Well, and you know, Dan, we were talking about this earlier, and if you think about it, if every new vehicle after some date and time were autonomous, you would still have, what did you say? 200 million?Dan: I couldn't tell you how many-Paul: Millions.Dan: ... cars are out there, but probably hundreds of millions of cars.Paul: Non-autonomous vehicles.Dan: Right. Precisely. So it's going to take a while before this stuff is at its scale and it's the only thing available.Logan: Yeah. You can map streets all you want, but you can't really map human decision making.Paul: Well, one thing we know for sure, the topic of getting from A to B here in Pittsburgh is not going to go away anytime soon. So on some distant future podcast, look for us to update our musings on getting from here to there.Dan: You're going to keep complaining about that lasso, aren't you?Paul: I am.GETAWAYSDan: All right. For this next segment, we have Robin Rectenwald. And she's an account supervisor here at WordWrite.Dan: Robin, thanks for being here.Robin: Thanks for having me.Dan: Absolutely. We wanted to bring you in because a couple of stories recently that we had in the 100 discussed some short getaways that you can take from Pittsburgh here. And there were both some really interesting luxury type locations, and Robin, one of those places that you went to was Bedford Springs Resort in Bedford, PA. And you talked about just being your first solo trip, but also just seemed like a really cool, unique place that was a quick little drive away.Robin: Yeah. My best friend had actually told me about the Omni Bedford Springs Resort. She needed some time away, she was going through a really stressful time in her life. And so, years later I finally was able to take the trip for myself. It was on my to-do list for a while.Dan: Sure. Well, it seems like it's pretty cool to take one of these trips, and it's really just in your backyard, too. And I think maybe a lot of people don't quite realize all of these ... You don't have to go all the way to the coast. You don't have to go to California or something, Florida, to find a really great vacation. And did you find that?Robin: Yeah, that's what I loved about this trip. I actually am someone who doesn't like to drive very far distances by myself. I'm a little bit of a drowsy driver.Dan: That's really safe, to be on a Pennsylvania turnpike as a drowsy driver!Robin: Yeah. But this one was quick and easy. It was literally on the dot two hours. So yeah, just getting there was super easy. I felt comfortable going by myself.Dan: Right. And was it as relaxing as it claimed to be?Robin: It was beautiful. I really did feel like I was in paradise. The hotel itself is beautiful, it's historic, so you go in, it's these big staircases, these old elevators, this creaky floors. It was just taking a step back into time into, like the 18 hundreds.Dan: It's kind of like The Shining hotel before it became The Shining hotel. Right?Robin: Much less creepy.Dan: Right, yeah. No Jack Nicholson bursting through your door. That's good to know.Dan: Logan, you recently wrote just recently in the 100 here about some pretty cool little cabins through a company called Getaway.Logan: Yeah, quite a fitting name. I had seen one of their ads on some social media, and-Dan: Social media has ads?Logan: I know, right? It's incredible.Dan: Wow.Logan: But so, they're these cabins, they're just 45 minutes from Pittsburgh. They're in Lisbon Creek, Ohio, tucked right next to a state park out there. And yeah, I mean, they're cabins across these 59 acres of land, and I'm definitely trying to make it out there. I haven't yet, but they look beautiful and they're nice and away from wifi so you can just let yourself go. But so, I had seen one of their ads on social media and I've now been barraged with Getaway ads for the past two weeks on every single social media platform.Logan: But yeah, it's 45 minutes, something just quick and easy, you can getaway. It doesn't take too much time off work if any at all. Just go out there for the weekend and just relax.Dan: Right? Now those cabins are actually next to Beaver Creek State Park. So very close. And I edited that story, so I have a lot of ads from Getaway right now, too. It's great.Dan: I think one thing that is cool to remember here is that we can take these small trips, and it's such a great time of year to get away and be into the country. Do you guys like going out, maybe doing some hiking, going to see some fall leaves? Robin?Robin: Yeah, I'm actually going on a train ride with my mom, the end of September. It's in Elks, West Virginia, and they have these four-hour train rides. So yeah, another quick getaway.Dan: Right? When I was a kid, I took a, it was all the way up in North Central PA. We took a trip through the --Robin: Oh, Kinzua Bridge?Dan: Yeah. Which, I don't think that exists anymore. I'm pretty sure it got blown down-Robin: No, it's still there. I was just there in May.Dan: Oh. I could have sworn it got blown down in a storm. I guess I'm completely wrong.Robin: It's partially did, so you can actually go there and see a partial bridge, and you can hike underneath it. It's pretty cool.Dan: Oh wow. That's really cool. Yeah, so I remember it being very high, so that's pretty cool.Logan: Yeah. I also love going out to Ohiopyle, or Ohiopyle depending on who you ask. But that's great. It's probably a two, two and a half hours. You can go out there and see Fallingwater while you're out there. Yeah. Lots of hiking trails.Robin: Kentuck Knob.Logan: What's that?Robin: Kentuck Knob is another Frank Lloyd Wright's house right nearby Fallingwater.Logan: Oh really?Robin: Yeah.Logan: See, I did not know that. I’ve got to put that on the list.Dan: Right. Well, I think the important thing to take away from this is, everybody, we've got some really great fall weather coming up, some really awesome leaves to see and foliage, and everybody should definitely take advantage of these locations that are just a couple hours away.Logan: Centuries before cell phones and social media, human connections were made around fires as we shared the stories that shaped our world. Today, stories are still the most powerful way to move hearts and minds and inspire action. At WordWrite, Pittsburgh's largest independent public relations agency, we understand that before you had a brand, before you sold any product or service, you had a story.Logan: WordWrite helps clients to uncover their own Capital S Story. The reason someone would want to buy, work, invest or partner with you through our patented story-crafting process. Visit wordwritepr.com to uncover your Capital S Story.PITTSBURGH IN FILMPaul: Well, welcome back everybody. I'm Paul Furiga, I'm publisher of the Pittsburgh 100 and President and Chief Storyteller of WordWrite. And we are pleased today to have with us Dawn Keezer, who on September 24th will celebrate 25 years of running the Pittsburgh Film Office.Paul: Logan, that's just hard to believe, isn't it?Logan: Yeah, no, it's awesome. I'm glad that we have such a great organization here in Pittsburgh. It does wonders for the city.Paul: Dawn, welcome.Dawn: Thank you.Paul: Tell us a little bit about the film office and what you folks do.Dawn: Well, the Pittsburgh Film Office is an economic development agency that focuses on marketing Southwestern Pennsylvania to the film industry. And that includes everything from feature films, television shows that you see on TV, commercials, documentaries, corporate videos. Anything, I used to say, anything rolling any kind of film. Now it's anybody using their iPhone that's doing anything on a professional level. We're helping them make that happen here in Southwestern PA. We represent all 10 counties in the region. Some people don't realize how big a reach the film office has.Logan: Tell us a little bit about your day-to-day role in the film office and what you're doing on a day-to-day basis.Dawn: Well, we have a huge staff at the film office. There's three of us that work there full time and that includes me. We all do a little bit of everything.Dawn: I've been there a really long time, so I'm the go-to both for our relationships with the government officials who really help us make everything happen when we're closing streets and closing bridges and need help getting into places like SCI Pittsburgh, but essentially the film office is a one-stop shop for the film and entertainment industry.Dawn: Whether they need permits to close streets, whether they're looking for an office supply company to give them their copier machines, for lumber for to build their sets, to find local crew. Anything that's going to involve their project moving forward, they call the film office and we're the ones that help them make that happen.Paul: When Logan and I were talking about this segment, Dawn, we were talking about the history. One of the cool things that people always talk about with Pittsburgh is that so much happens here with film and with TV, but that didn't happen by accident. Tell us how the film office got started and why.Dawn: Well, the film office got started, as I was told, I'm the second director, Robert Curran was who actually was here when they started the film office under the Greater Pittsburgh Office Of Promotion. It was all being operated, I'm showing you guys, because I like to use my hands, but it was in the bottom drawer of a person working in Mayor Sophie Masloff's office at the time. He'd pull out a drawer, go, "Okay, what do we do with this one?"Dawn: And when Silence of the Lambs decided to film in Pittsburgh, they went, "Wow, we've really got to step this up."Dawn: So the Greater Pittsburgh Office Of Promotion created the Pittsburgh Film Office. Russ Streiner, who's our current board chair, actually founded the film office with a few others, and they really started professionalizing the whole approach. By the time I got here it was an established film office, but it was really about making sure the community is protected and the clients, the film companies, are getting what they want done and accomplished.Dawn: Pittsburgh looks great, but everyone feels good about it at the end of the day.Paul: I think, and Logan, chime in here, but most people in Pittsburgh, and I'm making a generalization here, but I think they're proud to see Pittsburgh in TV and film, but we don't really have an understanding as Pittsburghers of how this all really works.Paul: An economic impact of 650 million, you said?Dawn: Well, that's how much wanted to be spent here. And it is.Paul: Wanted it to be spent.Dawn: They wanted to spend here. We're going to be lucky to retain about 200 million of it.Paul: Oh my goodness.Dawn: And this is money spent throughout the entire economy. The big spend, of course, is on our local crew, which we have some of the most experienced, amazing craftsmen that work in this, craftsmen and women, who work in this industry throughout the region.Dawn: Our crew is so good people travel them. They take them elsewhere because if they're not working at home, they leave. And in the old days they were lucky to stay. I say the old days prior to the film tax credits, they were lucky to be here for one film a year, and then they would go work in different states, in different places. They've all been able to stay home now.Paul: Well, let's talk about that for a second, because, in Pennsylvania anyway, it seems like certain legislators get upset about the size of the credit. But from what I've seen, our credit's not really that big compared to other states.Dawn: Our credit is woefully underfunded and oversubscribed. We needed $127 million dollars to retain all the work that Southwestern Pennsylvania had for this year alone. And we have to share the film tax credit with our friends over in Philly. We're one of the only states that have two production centers, meaning two places where people film.Dawn: I equate the tax credit to a 25% off coupon you get at your local store. This is money coming in. We're giving them 25 cents on every dollar they spend after they've spent 60% of their budget in the commonwealth. And they have to prove this. They fill out forms, they're audited. We know where every dime is spent on every single thing they do well before they ever get their tax credit certificate.Dawn: We just keep having the conversations and hopefully, we'll get to the point where they go, "Oh, we really do need to increase the film tax credit."Dawn: Georgia has a 30% uncapped tax credit. I told you, we had topped 1.5 billion this last year, and that's since 1990. Georgia had six billion dollars’ worth of film work last year.Paul: Wow. Now that is just amazing.Dawn: And they're looking for other places to go. If you look at the level of content that's being created right now, with the growth in all the streaming channels and everything else, they're all looking for homes. It's Netflix, it's Disney, it's Amazon. All our clients, they've all been here, they're all coming back. They're all, it just ... We have an opportunity here to really grow it, and I'm really hoping we get to capitalize on it this year.Logan: Like you said, everything you're saying makes sense. I would think that just pounding the nail and then hopefully it gets through some people's heads and realize that there are two production centers here and that that would bring so much money into our economy that otherwise goes unspent.Logan: Through your 25 years though, it sounds like people have wanted to less have Pittsburgh as a double, and actually want their film set in Pittsburgh. Would you say that's correct?Dawn: It's really interesting. It's a great question because we've really seen a growth in the number of shows that set it here. And primarily we're getting more people to write Pittsburgh into the scripts. There's more work being created. It saves them money when they set it in Pittsburgh because then they don't have to worry about, "Oh, there went a police car that's got the wrong logo on it, there goes -Paul: Re-badging, resigning things, yes.Dawn: ... everything."Dawn: We've seen a huge increase in that, which has been fun and it makes life a lot easier for everybody. And it gives us some great marketing.Dawn: Sometimes not so much. Right? Sometimes it's not a storyline that Pittsburgh would want to promote, but again, it's a movie. We're not portraying real life here, or a TV show, whatever it happens to be.Paul: That's great. So, as Pittsburghers, what can we do to help the film industry here thrive and grow?Dawn: Well, what we're really lucky about, I always tell people there are three main reasons anyone films here. It's the tax credits, it's our crew, it's the diversity of locations.Dawn: The fourth unofficial one is the film friendliness of Pittsburgh. We welcome these projects with open arms. We still are excited about it. Yeah, sometimes they block your driveway. Sometimes they're in the way, and we deal with all this usually minor inconveniences that happen throughout the region, but for the most part, we're very supportive. So we'd love for that to continue when people really get to know how friendly our region is.Dawn: Our website is pghfilm.org. We're on all of the social media channels, Facebook, Twitter, everywhere else you're supposed to be these days. It's important that you go check in on what's happening, and if you want to be an extra, we put that information up on our website. We really try to keep things up to date and current as possible.Dawn: I mentioned we have three full-time employees. I have a full staff of interns, they're amazing, from all the local major universities in the region, and they're charged with getting all that stuff updated, so they've been doing a great job. But it's really just checking in and staying supportive.Dawn: And for the legislators that are listening, are you people out there who have friends that are legislators? It's important to remind them that the film tax credit affects the entire region. Not just the people who see the direct impact, but the entire region. We're all benefiting from this economic development generator. And the goal with the tax credits was to not only have an incentive but to build an industry sector. We've done that. Now we need to start building infrastructure and getting purpose-built sound stages and getting some things moving.Dawn: Just supporting the film industry as a whole, as a real viable business in the region, it's really the key.Logan: Great. Well, thank you so much for being here, Dawn. We really appreciate you being here and giving your info and knowledge and expertise on this. This has definitely given me an expanded view of what the Pittsburgh Film Office does. And so, yeah, just thanks for being here.Logan: This is Logan Armstrong and Paul Furiga with the P100 Podcast, and thanks again.Dawn: Thank you.FLOWER CROWN MUSICLogan: Okay, Dan, coming into our next segment, I want to take a couple of minutes to spotlight a local band, Flower Crown, who is on the Crafted Sounds record label, who is a local record label which is run by my friend, Connor Murray. They're doing a lot of great things. But Flower Crown is, I would call them dream-pop, very hazy, very ambient, chill.Logan: My first introduction to them was when I heard their song Bender Szn, it landed on Spotify's Fresh Finds Six Strings playlist, which is a pretty prominent playlist in the platform. It got them a lot of good exposure. As an artist, you're always looking to get on playlists like those.Logan: But yeah, I know you had a little chance to listen to them. What did you think?Dan: Yeah, I think that dream-pop is maybe a good way to describe them. I hadn't heard that term for a genre until you brought it up to me. Until you introduced me to this band here, but I'd agree with it. They'd be nice to just have, put them on for a good mix, a good playlist for a long drive or something like that. And just a nice, kind of soothing, but they do a pretty nice job with their instrumentation. They sound good. So yeah. Excited to hear some more.Logan: Yeah. Yeah. It's a five-member band. And what I like about Flower Crown is that while the music is, like you said, it's great for a long road trip. It's very just, you can kind of get into it. They create their own atmosphere. I haven't met them personally, but from what I've seen on social media and in the public, they're pretty likable guys.Logan: Their profile picture on Facebook has one of them in a big hot dog suit. One of their single covers has them taking off, the guy's in an alien suit, they're taking off his alien head, almost like a Scooby-Doo character. It's nice to be able to see bands that you're able to relate with and are still making music on that scale.Dan: That's awesome. What are we going to hear from them coming up?Logan: Yeah. As I mentioned earlier, I think a great introduction to them is Bender Szn, off their latest project called Sundries, which came out in May. It's a great little single to head out into your day. Very chill. Great for a day like this in October. So yeah, I hope you enjoy.