Podcasts about simplified seo consulting

Welcome to this session about AI and SEO, very relevant topics to consider in today's world of constantly evolving technology. SEO is what most clinicians have focused on for many years, but the online world is changing rapidly in the face of new advancements in AI. With these advances come new levels of fear, excitement, and uncertainty about AI's role in content creation, SEO, and more. If you feel lost and need direction around these topics, today's podcast session will be helpful and informative. Our Featured GuestMary WalkerMary Walker is the new owner of Simplified SEO Consulting, a firm dedicated to helping therapists and other professionals grow their practices through strategic search engine optimization. In this conversation, Mary explains how AI is enhancing SEO, how she sees website SEO evolving with AI, and some of the biggest mistakes therapists make with SEO and AI. Simplified SEO ConsultingYou'll Learn:Words of encouragement to clinicians about SEOWays that AI is enhancing SEO (what we need to understand)Thoughts on changing your perspective if you've been fearful of AIBenefits of using social media and AI searches togetherMary's tips for maximizing SEO content on all platforms (Find out why YouTube is her #1 choice!)Don't discount the effectiveness of video posts to share content and engage with your audience.Wisdom in balancing the frequency of social media posts and using AI tools to repurpose existing content (Mary recommends Pictory AI for easy video creation.)The scoop on schema markup–what it is and what it does (Find out more at schema.org.)Top SEO mistakes therapists make in the world of AI:Resisting change and being unwilling to adaptWriting content at a higher level, which AI doesn't likeLearn more about SEO with a free course and YouTube video series. Click here.Resources:Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more!Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit for Therapists at https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekit.If you are a seasoned therapist who wants to move from clinical to online course income, we have a specific mastermind for you. We meet together to build, grow, and scale our online courses. You can learn more at https://sellingthecouch.com/mastermind.Mentioned in this episode:Try Alma!Building and managing the practice you truly want can feel overwhelming. That's why Alma is here—to help you create not just any practice, but your private practice. With Alma, you'll get the tools and resources you need to navigate insurance with ease, connect with referrals that are the right fit for your style, and streamline those time-consuming administrative tasks. That means less time buried in the details and more time focused on delivering exceptional care to your clients. You support your clients. Alma supports you. Learn more at sellingthecouch.com/alma and get 2 months FREE —an exclusive offer for STC listeners.

Many of us have thought about creating continuing education courses and wondered how the process works and what factors are involved. Who better to learn from than someone who has done this successfully? Being successful at CEU course creation takes innovation, creativity, and an entrepreneurial spirit. Join us for informative insights from today's guest!Our Featured GuestMatthew BierdsMatt Bierds, from Duke City Counseling, is a licensed professional counselor, course creator, and professional speaker who does in-person and virtual counseling and LPC supervision in Texas and New Mexico. As far back as ten years ago, Matt realized that the world of online education was expanding, and he knew there were interesting opportunities for LPCs in the area of online courses. After jumping into this arena, Matt went through a “failing forward” phase before making a few tweaks and creating a course for LPC supervisors. In today's session, Matt shares the lessons learned along his fascinating journey and the mistakes and successes that have brought him to where he is today. Matt's WebsiteYou'll Learn:Matt's wisdom: “I learned the hard way that selling general continuing education courses online is pointless and a waste of time and money.”The value in pivoting and niching down when something isn't workingDiscovering the sweet spot: How Matt created a course designed for a specific person in a specific situationCourse creation is successful when you see the need and solve the pain point.Matt's path to building trust and cultivating repeat customersThe progression and development of Matt's 40-hour course and 6-hour refresher coursesThe challenges in maintaining compliance and navigating changes in licensing requirementsCourse creation challenges: creating content and incorporating more video interaction and student engagementMatt's biggest mistakes and successes in marketing his coursesResources:So you've probably heard that blogging is one of the best ways to attract your ideal clients as a therapist. But I know that it can be intimidating to SEO optimize your blog post so that it's actually getting found by your current and future clients. Simplified SEO Consulting is a team of mental health professionals who genuinely want to help you attract more of your ideal clients using a proven on-page SEO process.Please visit https://sellingthecouch.com/simplifiedseo.**Use the code “MELVIN” to get 20% off any online, DIY SEO courses, and mention Melvin during your consultation for $100 off your onboarding fee for Done-For-You SEO services!Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more athttps://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:Need Community Support? Join the MastermindIf you are a seasoned therapist, and you are wanting to move from clinical to online course income, we actually have a specific mastermind for therapists who are doing this. We meet together to build and grow and scale our online courses. You can learn more about that mastermind over at...

Jessica Tappana is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, a group practice owner, the founder of Simplified SEO Consulting, a mom, a world traveler and someone passionate about supporting others. She is constantly trying to find ways to improve the services offered by her business and believes that as human beings we are constantly a work in progress.

Today's session covers a topic that many clinicians are pondering. Many, like me, are having conversations with themselves in their heads about the available opportunities and the most efficient and ethical ways not to be left behind as technology presents new options in our field. The issue is how we can navigate the world of mental health tech startups that are available to join us to support our good work. Examples of what these startups provide are electronic health records, website design, marketing, and more. The truth is that the pandemic changed everything and catapulted the tech startup world into the range of billions of dollars. Don't miss my enlightening conversation with today's guest!Our Featured GuestMichael FulwilerMichael Fulwiler is Head of Brand Marketing at Heard, a company that assists therapists with bookkeeping and financial needs. I've come to rely on Mike's expertise as a good friend as I navigate the aspects of STC, trying to be a protector of our field while staying in alignment with my values. In this session, Mike and I discuss the mindblowing numbers around the multitude of mental health tech startups and how clinicians can be informed about which ones are most likely to succeed or fail. We also discuss the vitally important topic of client data privacy and the top three considerations we should have before signing up for a product or service. Heard WebsiteYou'll Learn: How to view tech startups in the mental health industry in terms of “headwind” and “tailwind” tendencies since the COVID-19 pandemicWhat the data shows about tech startups: 90% will fail!Why the big risk also comes with big opportunities in the startup worldWhat happens when a clinician contracts with a mental health tech startupWhy client data privacy is a valid concern when working with a tech startup (Hear Mike's advice about watching out for red flags!)Top three considerations for a therapist about a tech startup:How they handle the data Whether or not there is a mental health professional on their team who helps with decisions and developmentHow compensation for therapists is structuredMike's advice about doing your due diligence when contacted by a tech startupAn overview of Mike's work and mission at Heard and what they provide for therapistsResources:So you've probably heard that blogging is one of the best ways to attract your ideal clients as a therapist. But I know that it can be intimidating to SEO optimize your blog post so that it's actually getting found by your current and future clients. Simplified SEO Consulting is a team of mental health professionals who genuinely want to help you attract more of your ideal clients using a proven on-page SEO process.Please visit https://sellingthecouch.com/simplifiedseo.**Use the code “MELVIN” to get 20% off any online, DIY SEO courses, and mention Melvin during your consultation for $100 off your onboarding fee for Done-For-You SEO services!Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more athttps://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned...

Many of us have thought about creating continuing education courses and wondered how the process works and what factors are involved. Who better to learn from than someone who has done this successfully? Being successful at CEU course creation takes innovation, creativity, and an entrepreneurial spirit. Join us for informative insights from today's guest!Our Featured GuestMatthew BierdsMatt Bierds, from Duke City Counseling, is a licensed professional counselor, course creator, and professional speaker who does in-person and virtual counseling and LPC supervision in Texas and New Mexico. As far back as ten years ago, Matt realized that the world of online education was expanding, and he knew there were interesting opportunities for LPCs in the area of online courses. After jumping into this arena, Matt went through a “failing forward” phase before making a few tweaks and creating a course for LPC supervisors. In today's session, Matt shares the lessons learned along his fascinating journey and the mistakes and successes that have brought him to where he is today. Matt's WebsiteYou'll Learn:Matt's wisdom: “I learned the hard way that selling general continuing education courses online is pointless and a waste of time and money.”The value in pivoting and niching down when something isn't workingDiscovering the sweet spot: How Matt created a course designed for a specific person in a specific situationCourse creation is successful when you see the need and solve the pain point.Matt's path to building trust and cultivating repeat customersThe progression and development of Matt's 40-hour course and 6-hour refresher coursesThe challenges in maintaining compliance and navigating changes in licensing requirementsCourse creation challenges: creating content and incorporating more video interaction and student engagementMatt's biggest mistakes and successes in marketing his coursesResources:So you've probably heard that blogging is one of the best ways to attract your ideal clients as a therapist. But I know that it can be intimidating to SEO optimize your blog post so that it's actually getting found by your current and future clients. Simplified SEO Consulting is a team of mental health professionals who genuinely want to help you attract more of your ideal clients using a proven on-page SEO process.Please visit https://sellingthecouch.com/simplifiedseo.**Use the code “MELVIN” to get 20% off any online, DIY SEO courses, and mention Melvin during your consultation for $100 off your onboarding fee for Done-For-You SEO services!Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more athttps://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:

Today's session covers a topic that many clinicians are pondering. Many, like me, are having conversations with themselves in their heads about the available opportunities and the most efficient and ethical ways not to be left behind as technology presents new options in our field. The issue is how we can navigate the world of mental health tech startups that are available to join us to support our good work. Examples of what these startups provide are electronic health records, website design, marketing, and more. The truth is that the pandemic changed everything and catapulted the tech startup world into the range of billions of dollars. Don't miss my enlightening conversation with today's guest!Our Featured GuestMichael FulwilerMichael Fulwiler is Head of Brand Marketing at Heard, a company that assists therapists with bookkeeping and financial needs. I've come to rely on Mike's expertise as a good friend as I navigate the aspects of STC, trying to be a protector of our field while staying in alignment with my values. In this session, Mike and I discuss the mindblowing numbers around the multitude of mental health tech startups and how clinicians can be informed about which ones are most likely to succeed or fail. We also discuss the vitally important topic of client data privacy and the top three considerations we should have before signing up for a product or service. Heard WebsiteYou'll Learn: How to view tech startups in the mental health industry in terms of “headwind” and “tailwind” tendencies since the COVID-19 pandemicWhat the data shows about tech startups: 90% will fail!Why the big risk also comes with big opportunities in the startup worldWhat happens when a clinician contracts with a mental health tech startupWhy client data privacy is a valid concern when working with a tech startup (Hear Mike's advice about watching out for red flags!)Top three considerations for a therapist about a tech startup:How they handle the data Whether or not there is a mental health professional on their team who helps with decisions and developmentHow compensation for therapists is structuredMike's advice about doing your due diligence when contacted by a tech startupAn overview of Mike's work and mission at Heard and what they provide for therapistsResources:Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more athttps://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:Need Community Support? Join the MastermindIf you are a seasoned therapist, and you are wanting to move from clinical to online course income, we actually have a specific mastermind for therapists who are doing this. We meet together to build and grow and scale our online courses. You can learn more about that mastermind over at https://sellingthecouch.com/mastermind.So you've probably heard that blogging is one of the best ways to attract your ideal clients as a therapist. But I know that it can be intimidating to SEO optimize your blog post so that it's actually getting found by your current and future clients. Simplified SEO Consulting is team of mental health professionals genuinely want to help you attract

I have big news! I'm going back into private practice! Don't worry, though, because STC remains, and I'll be adding 1-2 days of clinical work each week. In today's session, I'm pulling back the curtain on my thought process as I've pondered this decision for quite a while. Do I have all the bits and pieces organized and figured out? The answer is NO, and that's okay. I want to give you a glimpse into the messy middle of this decision and the three main reasons I have made this choice. You'll Learn:What my life was like when STC began in 2015 when I was working in a group practiceWhy I feel a responsibility to provide mental health support in today's worldThree reasons I feel drawn to private practice:I genuinely miss clinical work.The mental health landscape is changing like no other due to COVID-19, AI tools, and heavily financed mental health startups.A “hub and spoke model” can keep things in perspective for me. How I'm structuring my “hub and spoke model” with a flagship offering as the “hub” and other offerings as “spokes”Questions that I'm thinking about and weighing in my mind about private practice:Is the insurance route or private pay route better?Do I have a niche for private practice work?How I'm confronting my fears about taking this new stepThe hopes and dreams I have about stepping into a new phaseResources:Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more at https://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:So you've probably heard that blogging is one of the best ways to attract your ideal clients as a therapist. But I know that it can be intimidating to SEO optimize your blog post so that it's actually getting found by your current and future clients. Simplified SEO Consulting is team of mental health professionals genuinely want to help you attract more of your ideal clients using a proven on-page SEO process. Please visit https://sellingthecouch.com/simplifiedseo *Use the code “MELVIN” to get 20% off any of our online, DIY SEO courses and mention Melvin during your consultation for $100 off of your onboarding fee for Done-For-You SEO services!Need Community Support? Join the MastermindIf you are a seasoned therapist, and you are wanting to move from clinical to online course income, we actually have a specific mastermind for therapists who are doing this. We meet together to build and grow and scale our online courses. You can learn more about that mastermind over at https://sellingthecouch.com/mastermind.

In this episode, I'm joined by the resilient and insightful Danica Wolf, COO of Simplified SEO Consulting. We dive into the heart of entrepreneurship—confronting imposter syndrome, embracing our authentic struggles, and owning our unique journeys. Danica opens up about her path from birth trauma to becoming a doula, and now to empowering therapists through effective SEO strategies. We share our personal stories, discussing how unexpected challenges can rock our world but also lead to profound growth and leadership. Tune in to learn how to turn setbacks into comebacks and help your private practice thrive. 

Today's session is all about brainspotting, a powerful and fascinating psychotherapy technique that I have personally found to be helpful. Specifically, we discuss the technique as it is used to help performance athletes. Join us to learn more!Our Featured GuestThad Frye, LCSWThad Frye is a licensed clinical social worker in Boulder, CO. As a certified brainspotting consultant, Thad has gone through multiple levels of training in this therapy technique. In our conversation, Thad explains why he was motivated to pursue training in brainspotting after previously focusing his work with families through hospice care and end-of-life journeys. He describes the technical aspects of brainspotting and how he uses it in his work with athletes, specifically in those with the “yips,” a puzzling phenomenon of the loss of an ability.Thad Frye Counseling and Brainspotting Coaching for AthletesYou'll Learn:Why Thad pursued training in brainspotting in 2016 as a way to serve families betterHow Thad experienced the somatic connection with his personal grief in new and real ways during his brainspotting trainingHow brainspotting differs from EMDRTechnical aspects of “inside window” and “outside window” reflexes within brainspottingHow different clients might respond during a brainspotting sessionHow training phases are structured in the brainspotting certification processWhy Thad chose to use brainspotting with performance athletesHow Thad uses brainspotting with athletes who experience muscle-guarding and the “yips”Resources:Interested in becoming part of our affiliate program? Learn more athttps://sellingthecouch.com/jointhehealthcasters Want to launch your online course?Please check out our free 7-Day Course Creator Starter Kit For Therapists: https://sellingthecouch.com/coursekitMentioned in this episode:So you've probably heard that blogging is one of the best ways to attract your ideal clients as a therapist. But I know that it can be intimidating to SEO optimize your blog post so that it's actually getting found by your current and future clients. Simplified SEO Consulting is team of mental health professionals genuinely want to help you attract more of your ideal clients using a proven on-page SEO process. Please visit https://sellingthecouch.com/simplifiedseo *Use the code “MELVIN” to get 20% off any of our online, DIY SEO courses and mention Melvin during your consultation for $100 off of your onboarding fee for Done-For-You SEO services!You're Invited to Join the Mastermind!Looking for a group of likeminded clinicians to help you grow your practice? You're in the right place. Check it out at https://sellingthecouch.com/mastermind.

Revisiting SEO and AI – Ethics and best practices: An Interview with Danica Wolf Curt and Katie interview Danica Wolf, COO of Simplified SEO Consulting, on the basics of SEO and how AI is being used in marketing. We look at best practices and ethics for both SEO and AI. We also talk through the potential pitfalls and cautions in the current state of AI for marketing.   Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! An Interview with Danica Wolf, MSW, Simplified SEO Consulting Danica is a not-so-secret strategy nerd who loves coffee and conversations about all things entrepreneurial. Especially when helping professionals are ready to dive into the world of ethical marketing strategies that actually work. As COO of Simplified SEO Consulting, Danica gets to spend most of her time helping therapists and other mental health professionals build the business of their dreams with dream clients who are already searching for them. As a birth business owner, former trauma advocate, University instructor, and single mom, Danica knows how important it is for busy practice owners to get the info they need quickly with action steps to implement right away. In this podcast episode, we return to our discussions about SEO and AI We've talked with caution about AI for your therapy practice but thought it would be helpful to talk to a marketing pro about effective ways to consider AI for your practice marketing. We also look at SEO best practices. What is SEO? What are best practices for on-page optimization? ·      Search Engine Optimization ·      Using keywords and content to get better ranked on Google ·      Content needs to be specific and aligned to ideal client ·      It is important to use ethical practices in your SEO What are the best practices for making marketing activities more efficient? ·      We talk about ways that AI is being used for marketing, including cautions and best practices ·      Google wants to see original content and wants folks to identify that AI has been used ·      There may be a google penalty for using AI generated content ·      When using AI for writing, make sure it actually sounds like you, you are editing it, and is accurate information ·      A better strategy with AI is using thoughtful prompts, your own examples, etc. as well as re-prompting and iterating on the content ·      Always check and read through things before putting anything on your website ·      Accessibility and simpler language (e.g., 3 am trauma brain) What are some good resources for writing content? ·      Jasper.ai ·      Copy.ai ·      Previous recommendation was originality.ai (which has had problems recently) ·      https://hemingwayapp.com/ What are concerns with using AI for your business at this point? ·      There is a shift in how AI content is being viewed, so initial dopamine hits may be leading you down the wrong path ·      You will need to be able to keep up with the evolution of AI, not just use it as a shortcut ·      It needs to be done strategically, intentionally, and ethically Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Our Linktree: https://linktr.ee/therapyreimagined Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Hoping to rank higher on Google? Well you're in luck! Danica Wolf, MSW of Simplified SEO Consulting joins Allison on today's podcast to discuss some of her top SEO tips & shares just how many of the ranking factors need to be satisfied to rank on page 1 of Google. Sponsored by: TherapyNotes® To learn more about today's guest, visit https://www.abundancepracticebuilding.com/blog.  Attention private practice builders: One of our most popular courses from the Abundance Party is now available a la carte! The Know Your Niche Course is going to help you really narrow in & save you from the thing you think is a niche but isn't (I'm looking at you Women in Transition “niche” & Couples Counseling “niche”.) A well-defined niche is the key to quicker growth and easy as pie marketing. Those that aren't already in the Abundance Party can snatch it up for only $27. Get it here!  

Danica is a coffee lover, drawn to the ocean, and a not-so-secret strategy nerd. As COO of Simplified SEO Consulting, Danica gets to spend most of her time helping therapists and other mental health professionals build the business of their dreams with dream clients who are already searching for them! As a birth business owner, former trauma advocate, University instructor, and single momma, Danica knows how important it is for busy business owners to get the info they need quickly with action steps to implement right away.

Jessica Tappana is an LCSW, a group practice owner, and the founder of Simplified SEO Consulting. She understands the complexities of owning a group practice and believes that therapists do their best work when they have a steady stream of their ideal clients. After building her own practice using Search Engine Optimization as her only marketing tool Jessica began helping other private practice owners get their websites ranked on Google and founded Simplified SEO Consulting. Her small team has helped hundreds of other private practice owners reach more clients needing their services by teaching them to optimize their own websites as well as done-for-you services. Jessica is passionate about helping therapists grow their practices so they can do their best clinical work and loves to talk about SEO, answer questions, and support other mental health professionals. One of Jessica's favorite parts of all of her jobs is that so much of it can be done while traveling the world. She is currently preparing for a 4-month world cruise next year, where she will get to see the world while still being able to log in to work!   Learn More About: Unraveling the Intricacies of Planning a World Cruise Adventure  Homeschooling Beyond Borders: Mastering the Art of Homeschooling While Sailing the Globe with Your Children The Secrets to Keeping Your Thriving Businesses on Autopilot While You Jet Off to Adventure Connect with Jessica: Webpage: https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/ DIY Courses: https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/online-seo-courses/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/SimplifiedSEOConsulting/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simplifiedseo/ Link to the Spring Break Blog Writing Workshop for Therapists happening in Steinhatchee, FL: https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/blog-writing-workshop-seo-training/ (There are only a few more spots available for this)     Have you heard of Alma? As you may know, I have a variety of resources available to therapists who want to build insurance in their private practice. I have a comprehensive membership to teach you how to build on your own. But I also refer mental health practitioners to companies like Alma who can do your billing for you if you don't want to hire billers or do it on your own. If this sounds like the kind of support you need in your insurance-based private practice, consider joining Alma to get the tools and support you need to manage and grow your private practice accept insurance, and focus on what matters most delivering high-quality care to your clients.    My personal referral link is here if you want to schedule an appointment and check them out: https://helloalma.com/for-providers/?grsf=kimberly-wqqc1l     Connect with me: Instagram: TheTravelingTherapist_Kym  Signup to learn more about life as Traveling Therapist: https://landing.mailerlite.com/webforms/landing/l2v7c3  The Traveling Therapist Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/onlineandtraveling/  Bill Like A Boss Insurance Billing Community: https://kymtolson.kartra.com/page/blab Subscribe to the Podcast Apple iTunes | Spotify | Google Podcast | Stitcher | Amazon | Castbox

Danica Wolf, MSW (she/her) discussed the importance of resilience and practical, simple steps to begin to strengthen resilience for yourself and your clients. Danica is the Chief Operating Officer at Simplified SEO Consulting, where she is responsible for overseeing the SEO Specialist Team and providing support to clients. She is also the primary instructor for the company's 12-Week Done-With-You SEO Intensive Training and the quarterly SEO Mastermind cohort. Danica has a passion for business strategy and writing, and has over a decade of experience in academia, having served as an Adjunct Faculty Member at the MU School of Social Work and the Lincoln University Department of Social Work. In addition to her work at Simplified SEO Consulting, Danica also owns and operates Harmony Birth Services, a full-spectrum doula agency. In her free time, Danica enjoys music, exploring local parks and trails, and crafting. She is a lifelong learner, self-described business strategy nerd, and a talented writer and content strategist with a passion for helping others achieve great results through SEO.OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:Danica's website Counseling Community TikTokJennifer Agee coaching pageCounseling Community Facebook communityCounseling Community InstagramAlaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023Portugal Marketing Retreat October 2-7, 2023

Today we have the one and only Jessica Tappana on to talk to all about search engine optimization for therapists. This is the episode for you if you are at the beginner stage of SEO work in your practice. Jessica covers: The top 3 things she recommends therapists do to start optimizing their website Her thoughts on ChatGPT and how it can be a tool for optimizing How to figure out what you should be ranking for (how to do keyword research as a therapist). Jessica's resources: www.SimplifiedSEOConsulting.com 20% off all of Simplified SEO Consulting's online courses on SEO with the code "Ambition” Link to read more about their different online courses on the Simplified SEO Consulting website: https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/online-seo-courses/ Danielle's links: The Practice Accelerator, my 10-week program to help you fill up your practice with ideal clients, is opening again in the winter of 2023. Get on the waitlist now so you don't miss out on coupon codes only the waitlist gets! Looking to open your practice next year? Here's the 10-step roadmap on everything you need to do to prepare for opening day. Practice Prep Free 5 Days to Getting Organized in Private Practice Challenge  Leave a voice note for Danielle just saying hi or asking a question that she can feature on a future episode: https://www.speakpipe.com/EntrepreneurialTherapist Thanks to our sponsor Jane.App. The all-in-one practice management software. Use the code work AMBITION at checkout for your first month free!

Therapists are often under the impression that their degree locks them into only doing therapy, so they grind through 60-minute sessions which can result in major burnout. But there are many ways to help others and support mental health that doesn't require always doing therapy.In this episode, I talk with Jessica Tappana, therapist, group practice owner, and founder of Simplified SEO Consulting, about what SEO is and why it's one of the best tools for therapists to get clients, as well as how she found her accidental passion for SEO while promoting her own private practice and turned it into an alternative stream of income that continues to help other therapists.More about Jessica:Jessica Tappana is an LCSW, a group practice owner, and the founder of Simplified SEO Consulting. She understands the complexities of owning a group practice and believes that therapists do their best work when they have a steady stream of their ideal clients. After building her own practice using Search Engine Optimization (SEO) as her only marketing tool, Jessica began helping other private practice owners get their websites ranking on Google as well, and she founded Simplified SEO Consulting. Her small team has helped hundreds of other private practice owners reach more of their ideal clients needing their services by teaching them to optimize their own website, as well as offering done-for-you services. Jessica is passionate about helping therapists grow their practices so they can do their best clinical work and loves to talk about SEO, answer questions, and support other mental health professionals.Simplified SEO Consulting Website: simplifiedseoconsulting.comGet 20% OFF of Any DIY Course With Code: ATPP-------------------------------------------------------

What is Play Therapy?: An Interview with Ofra Obejas, LCSW Curt and Katie interview Ofra Obejas, LCSW, RPT-S, about working with children in therapy. We look at what therapists often get wrong, important factors to understand, specialized training required (including play therapy), and what you actually do in therapy session with children.   Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! An Interview with Ofra Obejas, LCSW, Registered Play Therapist - Supervisor Ofra Obejas, Registered Play Therapist - Supervisor level, is a professional player. She works with elementary- to middle-school aged children. She's been called by some of her clients a “kid grownup.” (That's her rapper name.) She's taught at the University of San Diego Play Therapy program and presents webinars and courses on clinical topics related to children's issues. In this podcast episode, we talk about Play Therapy We reached out to our friend, Ofra Obejas to talk with us about how to work with kiddos and what additional training is needed to work effectively with children. What do therapists get wrong when working with children? Treating children like mini-adults Not understanding the skill involved in play therapy What are important factors for therapists to understand when working with children? “It's more scary to the children when the adult is incongruent and not showing their true feelings. It's less scary to see somebody angry than it is to see somebody pretending that they're not angry, but they are.” – Ofra Obejas, LCSW Children have a different culture (i.e., the tooth fairy is real) The therapist's role as translator for what children are saying Children will make you feel what they feel (e.g., powerlessness, never getting anything right) The importance of showing feelings to children as a therapist (versus remaining a blank slate) What do you do with children in therapy sessions? Psychodrama and re-enacting situations Therapists can use any theoretical orientation Ways to interact with the child Paying attention to transference and countertransference Case conceptualization, including family therapy and work with parents What specialized training is most effective for working with children? “So, what is the therapy on a bumper sticker? If you had to put it in three words, it's notice it, sit with it, and make meaning of it. Or in an experiential [play therapy] model, it's: you observe it, you name it, and then you model how to cope with it.” – Ofra Obejas, LCSW There are specialized protocols for working with children with many different orientations Identifying which orientation suits you How to understand what is being reenacted and how to respond: Notice it, sit with it, make meaning of it; Observe it, name it, model how to cope with it What boundaries should therapists set when working with children and families? Unit of treatment (family, individual, who was showing up to the session?) Treatment goals (what are we working on?) What children are allowed to do in the session Interactions with caregivers and the responsibilities caregivers have during sessions What does online therapy look like with children? The challenges with working with children online Online sand tray, online dollhouse, online puppet theater Creating a virtual play room New trainings for VR therapy for children Watching children play video games online How has the pandemic impacted children? This was dependent on how well parents were able to self-regulate and stay within the window of tolerance (was there someone who could help the child to regulate) Lack of socialization and difficulty in having conversations Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee! Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That's right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time. Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16-day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn. The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field. To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/  Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Ofra Obejas' website: redondovillagecounseling.com Ofra on YouTube UCSD - Play Therapy Program Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: How Therapists Can Really Help Kids Who Are Being Bullied Infant and Early Childhood Mental Health: An interview with Dr. Barbara Stroud What is Parental Alienation and How Can Therapists Successfully Treat it? Rage and Client Self-Harm: An interview with Angela Caldwell, LMFT Let's Talk About Race: An interview with Stevon Lewis, LMFT   Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage Therapy Reimagined Homepage Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube   Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

How Therapists Can Really Help Kids Who Are Being Bullied Curt and Katie chat about how therapists can support the targets of bullying. We explore what bullying actually is as well as what can be problematic in how it is typically addressed. We also discuss individual therapy strategies for kids who have been bullied. Curt and Katie also debate about whether the targets of bullying should change what makes them different to avoid getting bullied.     Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about how therapists can effectively treat bullying in therapy For Bullying Prevention month, we decided to dig into what bullying actually is and how therapists can treat bullying in therapy. What is bullying actually? The definition of bullying and how it is described currently (i.e., teasing versus bullying) Target and aggressor (versus victim and bully) as more appropriate language to describe participants Three essential elements of bullying: ongoing behavior, behavior is intended to be harmful, and there is a power differential between the aggressor and the target The relevance of impact versus intention of behavior Numerous types of power imbalances that can be present Types: physical, verbal, social or covert, cyber bullying What is problematic in how bullying is typically addressed? “Aggressors have a more robust set of social skills. And it's being able to adapt more quickly to things that are socially changing, even in the moment. This also plays a role in the reporting on the people teasing them because the more socially adept kids are then better able to convince the adults around them. Oh, no, we were just playing. We were teasing back and forth.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT Most bullying is not observed by adults Not moving past holding space Looking toward community interventions rather than individual Lack of understanding of what cyber bullying actually looks like (when you haven't grown up as a digital native) Aggressors have a more robust set of social skills Strategies for kids who have been bullied “I think we also need to recognize that if we go too far in telling people not to be different, we are invalidating their identity. And if we don't go far enough, and we don't help them to be part of society, they may continue to get really harshly bullied, but either one is damaging.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT Beyond ignoring (especially if there is an audience) Understanding what the target's response means to the aggressor Not playing into what the aggressor is doing, escalating to forceful “stop,” seeking out a trusted adult (or multiple adults) Debate on whether a target should shift their behavior and change what makes them different Building confidence versus masking Safety now versus identity development Practicing responses to potential bullying statements in session Including targets in the planning process with adults The challenges with mediation within school settings (and the importance of follow up) Systemic or prevention programs that also address bystanders Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee! Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That's right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time. Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16 day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn. The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field. To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/  Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Article: Parent-Assisted Social Skills Training to Improve Friendships in Teens with Autism Spectrum Disorders Article: The 411 on Bullying Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults The Practicalities of Gender Affirming Care for Trans Youth: An interview with Jordan Held, LCSW Working with Trans Clients: Trans resilience and gender euphoria – An interview with Beck Gee-Cohen Neurodivergence: An interview with Dr. Joel Schwartz   Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage Therapy Reimagined Homepage Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube   Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

What Modern Therapists Should Know About Law Enforcement Mental Health: An Interview with Cyndi Doyle, LPC Curt and Katie interview Cyndi Doyle on the mental health of law enforcement officers. We look at how being a cop impacts their mental health as well as specific incidents and the chronic desensitization. We also explore the feelings in law enforcement related to calls to defund the police and how society views the cops. Content warning: potentially traumatic incidents (violence, death) Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! An Interview with Cyndi Doyle, LPC Cyndi Doyle is a Licensed Professional Counselor, group practice co-owner, founder of Code4Couples®, podcaster, and author of Hold the Line: The Essential Guide to Protecting Your Law Enforcement Relationship.  She has spoken nationally and internationally including at the International Association of Chiefs of Police Conferences (IACP), the FBI National Academy Association (FBINAA) Conference, keynoted at police spouse conferences throughout the country, and at trained various police departments. While much of her work focuses on first responders, Cyndi's stories of embracing and wrestling with living her own bold and authentic life have resulted in her being a sought-after speaker for other mental health professionals.  Her message of humanizing struggle, compassion, courage, and resilience has resulted in her speaking nationally and even keynoting at the 2020 Texas Counseling Association Professional Growth Conference.  That same year, the American Counseling Association awarded her the Samuel Gladding Unsung Heroes Award for her work with first responders and contribution to the field of counseling. In this podcast episode, we talk about Law Enforcement Mental Health We reached out to our friend, Cyndi Doyle to explore a population of folks who we typically don't think about as our patients: Law Enforcement Officers (LEO). What should modern therapists know about the mental health of Law Enforcement Officers and their families? “[Law Enforcement Officers] don't feel safe, not just their physical safety, but emotional safety. Many times, they don't feel supported by their communities. They don't feel supported by their departments, by their administration. …Would you really want to go to a job every day where you were potentially hated?” – Cyndi Doyle, LPC Different dynamics than typical couples The definition of cynicism How training impacts the mental health of officers Misinterpretation of control versus abuse Over diagnosis of trauma The negative impacts on police officers of the heightened scrutiny and criticism Hypervigilance and the impact of cameras on police offers performing their jobs The lack of support from the community (or the legislators or even law enforcement leadership) for officers Lack of compassion satisfaction, considering quitting their job, PTSD The impact on Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) families Exploration of the calls to defund the police and fund other resources “You'll see the cellphone videos or the videos out there of officers playing basketball or playing football or engaging with the community. And that's what community policing is. Community policing is the idea of I know my community well enough to know who potentially has a mental health situation that I need to be aware of.” – Cyndi Doyle, LPC Looking at the law enforcement response to defunding the police Exploring community policing and how that could help decrease abuses The cultural shifts and education happening at police departments The potential for mental health resources being added to policing When staffing is down, there is less time to recuperate and be prepared for work Mental Health Concerns that bring law enforcement officers and their families into therapy “Sometimes we assume, I think, as clinicians that like oh, that would be traumatic for me to see. When in actuality [cops] have seen it so often that there's a desensitization. Now, does the desensitization impact to them? Sure. It also doesn't mean that every situation is traumatic to them. That unfortunately, once you've seen something or done something time and time again, it cannot impact you the same way.” – Cyndi Doyle, LPC Stress, Anxiety, Depression, Addiction Relationships, family and couple Incident, critical incident, trauma Desensitization to violent incidents, injuries, and death The personalization in incidents that can cause more of a trauma response The insufficient training to build resilience for law enforcement officers The shifting culture that is now recognizing mental health as health, but the ongoing stigma for seeking support Cynicism, lack of empathy, and bias in Law Enforcement The mindset that narrows down to “everyone” behaves Working to make officers more human, so they can see more good in the world The importance of supporting the resilience and empathy within LEO (while recognizing that some of these things are not helpful “on the job”) Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee! Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That's right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time. Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16-day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn. The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field. To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/  Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Code 4 Couples Cyndi Doyle.com Social media: https://www.instagram.com/code4couples/ https://www.facebook.com/code4couples https://www.linkedin.com/in/cyndidoylelpc/ https://www.instagram.com/cyndi_doyle/ https://www.facebook.com/cyndi.b.doyle Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Therapists on the Hostage Negotiation Team: An interview with Dr. Andy Young Treating First Responders: An interview with Yael Shuman, LMFT   Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage Therapy Reimagined Homepage Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube   Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

Medical Assistance in Death (MAiD) in Canada: Mental Illness and Assisted Suicide Curt and Katie chat about assisted suicide related to an upcoming expansion of the MAiD laws in Canada to include mental illness. We discuss what these laws seems to say as well as how they might impact patients, medical providers, and therapists. We explore the moral and ethical questions as well as what other countries have done to put in further safeguards to protect patients and doctors.    Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about the expansion of Medical Assistance in Death laws in Canada We have been watching the MAiD laws in Canada that are soon going to include assistance in death for folks with mental illness. We talk about the law and the concerns we have related to the safeguards (or lack of safeguards). What are the updates coming to the Medical Assistance in Death laws in Canada? With the approval of 2 medical professionals and a 24-month waiting period (for psychological illness), individuals can get medication or an injection from a medical provider to end their lives Requirements for application include chronic, “grievous and irremediable” conditions Information on requirements are here: Final Report of the Expert Panel on MAiD and Mental Illness The differences in laws in other countries that seem to have more safeguards in place What are the moral and ethical questions facing medical and mental health providers? “Do we have the right – the moral right – as therapists, mental health professionals of any sort of background or license, to tell clients that they must live or that it is okay for them to end their life?” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT What responsibilities do mental health providers have to their clients related to end of life? Who will be negatively impacted versus who will be positively impacted? Who would qualify and who would seek out assistance in dying? “I'm not worried that someone that's a little depressed is going to decide they want to die by suicide… I think it's more that there are going to be folks [diagnosed with serious mental illness who are receiving insufficient mental health care] … who really don't feel like they have options (and maybe they don't) and they choose to die by suicide versus advocating for stronger treatment.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT What is mental illness? Is it only what is in the ICD or DSM? What are the impacts of these laws on physicians? Concerns raised by First Nations groups in Canada Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee! Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That's right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time. Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16 day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn. The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field. To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/  Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Final Report of the Expert Panel on MAiD and Mental Illness NY Times: Is Choosing Death Too Easy in Canada? Medical Assistance in Dying in Canada: Too Much, Too Fast?  Canadian and Dutch doctors' roles in assistance in dying Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Part 1: Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults Part 2: What Therapists Should Actually Do for Suicidal Clients: Assessment, safety planning, and least intrusive intervention What's new in the DSM 5-T-R? An interview with Dr. Michael B. First When Clients Die: An interview with Debi Frankle, LMFT Therapists Struggling with Darkness Suicidal Therapists: An interview with Norine Vander Hooven, LCSW Therapist Suicide Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage Therapy Reimagined Homepage Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube   Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

What Therapists Should Actually Do for Suicidal Clients: Assessment, safety planning, and least intrusive intervention Curt and Katie chat about suicide assessment, safety planning, and how to keep clients out of the hospital. We reviewed the Integrated Motivational Volitional Model for Suicide, we talked about what therapists should be assessing for in every session, what strong assessment looks like (and suggested suicide assessment protocols), and why the least restrictive environment is so important when you are designing interventions and safety planning. This is a continuing education podcourse. Transcripts for this episode will be available at mtsgpodcast.com! In this podcast episode we talk about suicide assessment, safety planning, and intervention We continue our conversation on suicide, progressing from risk factors (from last week's episode) to how to assess and safety plan with the least intrusive interventions at the earliest stages.   Review of the Suicide Model: Integrated Motivational Volitional Model by O'Connor and Kirtley   Continued to review the IMV model (graphic in the show notes at mtsgpodcast.com) What should therapists assess for in every session, related to suicide? “When clinicians are burnt out, when we have caseloads that are too big, when we aren't taking care of ourselves, we tend to [think], “Okay, this client is at a six, they can live at a six for a while,” which is absolutely true. And if they can [live with this level of suicidality], and they have the good factors that allow them to live there – great. It's just how close are they to that 7, 8, 9?” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT Moderating motivational factors, which move clients from passive to more active suicidality (or the reverse) Looking at what is keeping someone from being at risk for suicide (protective factors) The importance of knowing our clients well before they move into the volitional phase Understanding the clinician factors and putting structure around assessment Assessment for Suicide “Assessment is intervention.” – Curt Widhalm, LMFT SAMHSA's GATE protocol Gather information using a structured assessment tool (Columbia Scale, LRAMP) Looking at intention, means, plan as well as risk and protective factors Moving into a safety plan The importance of recognizing the human during the assessment (versus focusing only on the protocol or your liability) Seeking supervision or consultation – don't do this alone The importance of using the least restrictive intervention for suicide “There is a rupture in the therapeutic relationship when you are sending your client or facilitating a hospitalization against their will. It can save their lives …but that may not always be the case.” – Katie Vernoy, LMFT The idea of “responsible” action The range of options for keeping a client safe Having a conversation with the client on how to avoid attempting suicide The potential impacts of hospitalization, including trauma The danger of hospitalizing someone who does not need this level of intervention Additional intervention between sessions The practicalities to set up your schedule and your practice to support your clients and your self Additional risk factors (transition phases between providers) Our Generous Sponsors for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Thrizer Thrizer is a new modern billing platform for therapists that was built on the belief that therapy should be accessible AND clinicians should earn what they are worth. Their platform automatically gets clients reimbursed by their insurance after every session. Just by billing your clients through Thrizer, you can potentially save them hundreds every month, with no extra work on your end. Every time you bill a client through Thrizer, an insurance claim is automatically generated and sent directly to the client's insurance. From there, Thrizer provides concierge support to ensure clients get their reimbursement quickly, directly into their bank account. By eliminating reimbursement by check, confusion around benefits, and obscurity with reimbursement status, they allow your clients to focus on what actually matters rather than worrying about their money. It is very quick to get set up and it works great in completement with EHR systems. Their team is super helpful and responsive, and the founder is actually a long-time therapy client who grew frustrated with his reimbursement times The best part is you don't need to give up your rate. They charge a standard 3% payment processing fee! Thrizer lets you become more accessible while remaining in complete control of your practice. A better experience for your clients during therapy means higher retention. Money won't be the reason they quit on therapy. Sign up using bit.ly/moderntherapists if you want to test Thrizer completely risk free! Sign up for Thrizer with code 'moderntherapists' for 1 month of no credit card fees or payment processing fees! That's right - you will get one month of no payment processing fees, meaning you earn 100% of your cash rate during that time. Simplified SEO Consulting Have you spent countless hours trying to get your website just right and yet, it's not showing up on Google and it doesn't seem like anyone's able to find it? Simplified SEO Consulting has a unique solution. They've been training therapists to optimize their websites, so they show up better on Google for the past 4 years. But let's face it, with the busy schedules we all keep it can be hard to find the time to optimize your website even when you learn how. So, they are hosting a 16 day cruise in July 2023 going from LA to Hawaii and back. When you join them, you'll get intensive SEO education and coaching during the 10 days at sea. Most importantly, you'll have plenty of time to sit next to the pool and implement everything you've learned and then ask their team for feedback. Yes, it's the perfect excuse for a Hawaii vacation. But it's also a time to both learn about SEO and actually implement what you learn. The upcoming cruise is a unique opportunity to learn to optimize your own website, have time to practice what you learn and the ability to get feedback from leading SEO professionals in our field. To reserve your spot before it fills up, go to https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/training-cruise-for-better-seo/    Receive Continuing Education for this Episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Hey modern therapists, we're so excited to offer the opportunity for 1 unit of continuing education for this podcast episode – Therapy Reimagined is bringing you the Modern Therapist Learning Community!  Once you've listened to this episode, to get CE credit you just need to go to moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse, register for your free profile, purchase this course, pass the post-test, and complete the evaluation! Once that's all completed - you'll get a CE certificate in your profile or you can download it for your records. For our current list of CE approvals, check out moderntherapistcommunity.com. You can find this full course (including handouts and resources) here: https://moderntherapistcommunity.com/podcourse/ Continuing Education Approvals: When we are airing this podcast episode, we have the following CE approval. Please check back as we add other approval bodies: Continuing Education Information CAMFT CEPA: Therapy Reimagined is approved by the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists to sponsor continuing education for LMFTs, LPCCs, LCSWs, and LEPs (CAMFT CEPA provider #132270). Therapy Reimagined maintains responsibility for this program and its content. Courses meet the qualifications for the listed hours of continuing education credit for LMFTs, LCSWs, LPCCs, and/or LEPs as required by the California Board of Behavioral Sciences. We are working on additional provider approvals, but solely are able to provide CAMFT CEs at this time. Please check with your licensing body to ensure that they will accept this as an equivalent learning credit. Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! SAMHSA's TIP with the GATE Protocol COLUMBIA-SUICIDE SEVERITY RATING SCALE LINEHAN RISK ASSESSMENT AND MANAGEMENT PROTOCOL (LRAMP) References mentioned in this continuing education podcast: Carmel, A., Templeton, E., Sorenson, S. M., & Logvinenko, E. (2018). Using the Linehan Risk Assessment and Management Protocol with a chronically suicidal patient: A case report. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice, 25(4), 449-459. Goldman-Mellor S, Olfson M, Lidon-Moyano C, Schoenbaum M. Association of suicide and other mortality with emergency department presentation. JAMA Netw Open. 2019; 2(12):e1917571. Interian, A., Chesin, M., Kline, A., Miller, R., St. Hill, L., Latorre, M., ... & Stanley, B. (2018). Use of the Columbia-Suicide Severity Rating Scale (C-SSRS) to classify suicidal behaviors. Archives of suicide research, 22(2), 278-294. Linehan, M. M., Comtois, K. A., & Ward-Ciesielski, E. F. (2012). Assessing and managing risk with suicidal individuals. Cognitive and Behavioral Practice, 19(2), 218-232.   Pinals, D. A. (2019). Liability and patient suicide. Focus, 17(4), 349-354. Posner, K., Brent, D., Lucas, C., Gould, M., Stanley, B., Brown, G., ... & Mann, J. (2008). Columbia-suicide severity rating scale (C-SSRS). New York, NY: Columbia University Medical Center, 10. Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (US); (2009. Addressing Suicidal Thoughts And Behaviors in Substance Abuse Treatment [Internet]. Rockville (MD): (Treatment Improvement Protocol (TIP) Series, No. 50.) Available from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64022/ *The full reference list can be found in the course on our learning platform.   Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Part 1: Risk Factors for Suicide: What therapists should know when treating teens and adults Rage and Client Self-Harm: An interview with Angela Caldwell Work Harder Than Your Clients   Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: Patreon Buy Me A Coffee Podcast Homepage Therapy Reimagined Homepage Facebook Twitter Instagram YouTube   Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group   Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano https://groomsymusic.com/

During this episode, I talk with Jessica Tappana, LCSW (she/her) about the basics you need to know for SEO marketing. SEO can be so intimidating and Jessica explains how to integrate SEO into your website in a very clear way. I learned a lot from this episode. Jessica is the founder of Simplified SEO Consulting where she has a team that helps mental health professionals around the country do really in depth work on their website to improve SEO. Jessica believes we do our best work when we aren't worried about where the next client will come from and is on a mission to help empower therapists to be able to bring the best version of themselves to the therapy room.TOPICS IN THIS EPISODE:SEO is giving clients what they are asking forEstablishing yourself as an expert to boost SEOTopical authority and empathy benefit SEOWriting copy that benefits SEOGoogle and SEO, what you need to knowPages and Blogs that drive SEOAdding links for SEOWhat is Google looking for?What is the biggest bang for your buck with SEO?OFFERS & HELPFUL LINKS:Jessica's website offer 20% off all SEO DIY training using code JenniferCounseling Community TikTokJennifer Agee coaching pageCounseling Community Facebook communityCounseling Community InstagramAlaskan Cruise: Experiential Therapeutic Intervention Training for Therapists June 3-10, 2023Cabo, Mexico: Dreamer's Retreat for Entrepreneurial Therapists October 6-8, 2022Barcelona, Spain: Private Practice Entrepreneurial Retreat April 24-29, 2023

Today's topic is a relevant one for many clinicians as telehealth services have become a widespread, vital, and normal part of the healthcare field. Specifically, we are focusing on how Search Engine Optimization (SEO) changes when you practice telehealth across your state or even in multiple states. I'm continually fascinated by SEO and how it works, and it's something I'm still learning. If you are like me, join us to learn more! Our Featured Guest Jessica Tappana, MSW, LCSW Jessica Tappana is the founder of Simplified SEO Consulting, a firm that helps private practice owners build their businesses through Search Engine Optimization. She's a group practice owner in Missouri and an SEO nerd who loves taking therapy websites to the top in Google rankings. In today's session, Jessica talks about the biggest considerations in SEO as telehealth becomes the norm, as well as tips to improve SEO in practicing telehealth. We wrap up with Jessica's insights about SEO as it relates to location-based services. https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/ (Website)  You'll Learn: The biggest difference in approaching SEO as telehealth becomes the norm Why content generation is the solution to improve SEO for telehealth provider Why there is less work required to maintain an SEO ranking once you achieve it Jessica's tips for telehealth practitioners to improve SEO: Create a unique location page for each state in which you are relevant. Have a technically-sound website. Blog regularly. (The optimal frequency depends heavily on your location and level of competition.) The value in truly useful content for our clients that ALSO improves SEO Why SEO doesn't like “psycho-babble” but notices readability Mentioned in this episode: Ready to create your own course? Download the FREE Online Course Guide! Learn how to create and market your own online course in Melvin's unique online course guide. Download the FREE online course guide today! https://selling-the-couch.captivate.fm/onlinecourseguide (Online Course Guide )

Hearing the term 'Search Engine Optimization' or SEO spends many therapists and practice owners into a tailspin of anxiety. What is SEO? What are the benefits of SEO? And how should you approach SEO? Join me for this fascinating discussion with SEO expert Jessica Tappana of Simplified SEO Consulting. Click to listen now!

The January 2022 Surprise of Good Faith Estimates Requirements Curt and Katie chat about the No Surprises Act, specifically how to navigate the requirement for clinicians to provide Good Faith Estimates to clients. We talk about the impact of Good Faith Estimates on the intake process, potential complications when providing these estimates to your patients, and suggestions for how to simplify and systemize this requirement.      In this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide we talk about the No Surprises Act and the Good Faith Estimate Requirement When we heard about the planned implementation of these new requirements, we decided to dive into the legislation and articles from professional associations to understand what we actually need to do starting January 1, 2022. What is the No Surprises Act and the Good Faith Estimate (GFE) Requirement? “Some folks don't have a clear sense when they come into therapy, how long they're going to be there for.” – Katie Vernoy The goal of the No Surprises legislation is to avoid surprising patients with large medical bills There are benefits and challenges with the requirement to provide good faith estimates to our clients The Good Faith Estimate requirement is to provide the estimated cost of services (fee times number of sessions) at the beginning of treatment (if asked) and at least annually, if needed How will the Good Faith Estimate Requirement impact the Intake Process for Therapy? “These are not contracts; this is not guaranteeing the therapy is going to end after that many sessions.” – Curt Widhalm We are required to determine whether someone is hoping to get insurance reimbursement We must communicate the ability to obtain a written good faith estimate from providers We are required to estimate the number of sessions and total cost of treatment We talk about when you may need to provide a new good faith estimate (and explain changes) We provided a suggestion to start with a GFE for the intake session and then provide a second GFE after that initial session Potential Complications Curt and Katie see for Therapists Providing Good Faith Estimates The requirement for diagnosis very early in treatment The requirement for a diagnosis written on paper – both for folks who don't know or have not asked before, as well as for folks who do not want a written diagnosis Concerns related to putting forward the total cost of therapy for the year The elements of bureaucracy that could negatively impact the therapeutic relationship The No Surprises Act legislation isn't finalized and may have additional components or changes Our Suggestions to Systematize the Good Faith Estimate (GFE) Requirement for Therapists “There are certain aspects of this that I think - while onerous as far as communication with our clients - have the potential to make us actually talk with our clients about their treatment more frequently.” – Curt Widhalm Consider coordinating the timeline for updating GFEs, treatment plans, frequency of sessions, progress in treatment, and a reassessment of the sliding scale Think through how you talk about diagnosis and treatment planning ahead of time The idea to create some sort of mechanism for folks to either decline a GFE or to request an oral versus paper GFE Use recommended language to create your notice for your office as well as on your website Create your own template to simplify the process, including a boiler plate GFE for your intake Create a template for GFEs for on-going treatment Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings. These days, word of mouth referrals just isn't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you!  That's where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in. Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice. They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you. Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST" Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! APA Article: New Billing Disclosure Requirements Take Effect in 2022 Suggested Notification Language for Good Faith Estimates Template for a Good Faith Estimate Good Faith Estimate Legislation Language from the No Surprises Act Federal Register: Requirements Related to Surprise Billing; Part II CMS.gov: Requirements Related to Surprise Billing; Part II, Interim Final Rule with comment period Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: Should Private Practice Therapists Take Insurance? Make your Paperwork Meaningful   Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/ Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group   Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated): Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode is brought to you by simplified SEO consulting.   Katie Vernoy  00:03 Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.   Curt Widhalm  00:21 Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.   Announcer  00:26 You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:41 Welcome back modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast where we talk about things that affect therapists, our practices, the ways that we practice the ways that we interact with clients and stay I'm going to start by talking about back when I was in high school, I had to take chemistry class, and studying the periodic table.   Katie Vernoy  01:08 Where are you going with this?   Curt Widhalm  01:10 My favorite element at the time was tungsten because will W on its butt over time, my new favorite element is the element of surprise.   Katie Vernoy  01:26 Surprise!   Curt Widhalm  01:27 I think actually, a lot of providers are surprised at the no surprises Act, which we're actually talking about today, going into effect January 1 of 2022. And many people have been over the last couple of weeks, speculating on what this means for their practices, what actions that they need to take. And it's seeming to get to be a little bit of a game of telephone out there in therapy land when seeing everybody talk on Facebook groups and this kind of stuff. So Katie, and I have done an adequate job of diving into this. And how to   Katie Vernoy  02:10 Adequate is the right word, I think.   Curt Widhalm  02:13 So we wanted to be able to talk about the big scary aspects of this, the not so scary aspects of this, and the parts of this that are TBD, because it's not even fully out there yet. And much like the Spanish Inquisition, nobody knows when it's coming. So. So we are going to include some helpful things in our show notes, you can find those over at MCSG podcast comm. I'm sure we'll be doing a follow up episode to this a little bit later, we will also include a whole bunch of very boring and dense government regulations in those show notes as well. So that way, you know that we at least can link to other things in our show notes.   Katie Vernoy  03:09 We've already started off great, very adequate Curt, very adequate.   Curt Widhalm  03:13 Yes. So probably the best resource out there, at least as far as condensing down a bunch of   Katie Vernoy  03:22 At the type of recording.   Curt Widhalm  03:24 Yes there is an article from the American Psychological Association originally created December 10 2021, that outlines what this means for psychologists. But if you are a healthcare provider of any other status, and you are operating within your license or your credential, this article pretty much applies to you too. So we're going to go through this, we're going to add little bits here in there and also make some suggestions that aren't included in this article. And continue to listen to the show and join our Facebook group for further updates on any of the stuff that we're talking about here today as we find important stuff to share. So now, actually, to the content of the show, if you haven't left yet, but the no surprises Act was part of a broad package that was signed into law during the Trump administration. This was a bipartisan bill. And this was really to be a very consumer friendly bill that prevents patients from getting surprise billing. Now, if anybody's ever been in kind of an emergency situation before, what you'll know is that you don't get a whole lot of time to be in the hospital and ask every single provider Hey, are you in my insurance network? Is this going to be covered that it's kind of just who you And not every person who's working on you is necessarily in network, not necessarily an employee of the hospital. And so what ends up happening is that all of your your treatment stuff gets submitted to insurance companies. And then, like Spanish Inquisition, surprise, there's bills that show up in the manual. And this is generally not seen as very consumer friendly, because people don't know what's coming. Yes. Having been on the receiving ends of those kinds of treatments myself in the past. Now, I kind of like where this bill is going, being a healthcare provider, in my own little practice, not liking where this is going. Because there is a lot of regulations that are being added into this that while intended very well, for kind of emergency situations are fields a little bit different.   Katie Vernoy  06:03 Yes. And I think that for private pay providers, there can be times when folks are surprised, not by Oh, the anesthesiologist wasn't in your network. And this extra special treatment that happened because of you were under sedation, cost $27,000. But it is something where some folks don't have a clear sense when they come into therapy, how long they're going to be there for. I think, as a profession, I think we're very good at making sure someone understands the fee before they come into the first session. They know what they're going to be charged when they sit down with us. I think the part that feels both, I guess positive, but also onerous is having to say like, Hey, this is how long your treatment is going to be. This is what it's going to cost and, and giving so much information. I mean, it's it's a lot of information that you're having to provide very early in treatment to a client. And they basically will hold you to it, and then they're given information that they can hold you to it if if it does shift, too, dramatically. So I see that I see the point. But I also see that it's going to be a lot of work. Especially I think just to set it up, I think that there's a way to systematize it. And we can talk about that when we have our kind of discussion around suggestions later. But to begin, it's going to take some work.   Curt Widhalm  07:32 And so the main crux of what you're talking about here is providing clients with a good faith estimate. Yes. Before we get into what the good faith estimate is, let's talk a little bit about the intake phone call with clients. Because I think certain aspects of this, many providers are doing in one way or another where in many jurisdictions were required to discuss our fees with clients before they come into our first session. Yes, it's, you know, no surprises. It's not that they're showing up in our office, it and then all of a sudden being like, wait, what that we yeah, do provide that, usually verbally in an intake phone call, what that good faith estimate now adds to our work is in that intake phone call, we need to start having language around, are you planning to submit a claim to your insurance company for the services that you're going to receive for me, those of you who are in network with insurance companies, that's all to be determined in the future. As far as how that works with insurance companies, we're really talking to those cash paying clients, those out of network therapists, those who provide super bills, if you have a hybrid practice, half, listen to this, turn off the insurance side of your brain. But in that initial phone call, you need to ask clients, are you planning to submit this for a claim? Now, the way that most of us are already doing this is around this language Trooper bills? Hey, do you want a super bill for our services?   Katie Vernoy  09:11 And I also do "Do you want me to do courtesy billing" and actually take the reins on, you know, kind of getting insurance information and that kind of stuff? So I think those of us who are that have a sizable portion of our practices that are private pay, navigate this, but there are some clients that come in never discuss insurance. And I think that the the shift that I'm going to make us I'm going to ask that directly versus kind of allowing it to organically happen in conversation because if somebody comes says, What's your fee? I say $200. They say okay, like, I don't necessarily take that extra step. All the time about that. I mean, sometimes they'll say, you know, do you have insurance benefits? And do you want me to do courtesy billing or would you like a super bill, but I've not been diligent about For folks that don't seem interested, so at this point, we have to ask the question, we have to know about that. I don't know what we do with that information, but we just have to ask, we have to know, that's probably more of the to be determined.   Curt Widhalm  10:12 Well, so from the APA article, what we do after asking if they intend to submit a claim to their insurance is inform them, that they can get a good faith estimate of the expected charges, and that we can provide it to them in a written document if they want. And that needs to include things like a CPT codes, the the billing code for those service sessions that you're intending to do, it needs to include information about the client on it, and the anticipated number of sessions. Yeah, and I think that this is a part where I'm seeing some of the chatter in the therapist community around. Some of the conversations are well, what if people hold us to, you know, you said, this was gonna take 20 sessions, and it took 40. These are not contracts, this is not guaranteeing the therapy is going to end after that many sessions. And I suggest being clear with clients about that, that, yes, as far as I can tell from this vantage point, if you follow treatment, if things go, Well, this should take X number of sessions.   Katie Vernoy  11:27 And then I think the other piece, if you truly think it's going to be 20 sessions, I think, put down 20 sessions, if you think it's going to be longer term treatment, I think you you know, you have to do this, it needs to be a good faith estimate for the next 12 months, I think you do it as an annual or to the end of the year. And maybe you do all your good faith estimates in January. But each new year of treatment for each client, you have to do a new good faith estimate. And each time you change the fee, or the cadence of treatment, the way I'm reading it is that you need to then do a new good faith estimate. So if somebody increases the number of sessions, like they go from once a week to twice a week, or they shift from twice a month to one month, you know, like you're gonna want to adjust down. It feels onerous. And I think that there's probably a way to make this pretty streamlined if you have a form and you just are changing that number and that number. But the part up front that I get worried about is that it's supposed to have the clients diagnosis. And we're talking about an intake call where people can request these good faith estimates. And so I'm assuming you put at that point to be assessed or to be diagnosed at the first session or something like to me, it seems like some of the information requested doesn't really hold up when you're just getting a good faith estimate from a potential client.   Curt Widhalm  12:51 Sure. So I'm gonna go back two points that you made and then come to where you're talking about here.   Katie Vernoy  12:57 Okay. Okay.   Curt Widhalm  12:59 Some of us have clients who are lifers, that   Katie Vernoy  13:02 yes, they are Yes, both you and I are in that category.   Curt Widhalm  13:05 So what I intend to do with those clients is, hey, you generally come 50 weeks out of the year, here's your fee for 2022.   Katie Vernoy  13:17 Done,   Curt Widhalm  13:17 Done, there you go.   Katie Vernoy  13:19 Yeah, I think it's supposed to be in a form. But we can argue if it can be verbal, or if it has to be that whole form.   Curt Widhalm  13:27 I'll give them a form. To your second point. I wonder if the implementation for a lot of therapists is very standard going to have the first session be, actually to Bill 90791 as an actual diagnostic interview for your first session, that would have your appropriate rates, go back to our CPT code episode and hear us talk about most therapists don't actually bill for that one. Yeah. But that, I think, actually, if I step back, this whole process might actually make us follow through on things that we're supposed to be doing a little bit better if we're not having formal diagnostic first sessions, if you're concerned about putting a good faith estimate out to a client that you've talked to for about five minutes on the phone, and four minutes of them are about what a good faith estimate is that you can actually create a space to say, here's a good faith estimate of what this first diagnostic session is going to costs. And you'll get a new good faith estimates for our sessions after that session based on what comes out in that diagnostic interview.   Katie Vernoy  14:49 So, private pay providers are now going to have to act a little bit like insurance providers and diagnose in the first session and predict how much treatment is going to be needed.   Curt Widhalm  15:01 yes.   Katie Vernoy  15:03 Welcome!   Curt Widhalm  15:05 well into your other points is, if you, misjudge or if services need to continue, it's not like your relationship with the client just has to stop, you do get to provide new and updated good faith estimates   Katie Vernoy  15:22 Yes   Curt Widhalm  15:22 as anything changes, like you said, if you're going to more sessions a week, if you change your fees mid year, if any number of different things changes, potentially even diagnostics, then you're going to want to provide good faith estimates that are updated. And I would recommend that you put language on those updated ones that this replaces the previous Good Faith Estimate from whatever the previous date is.   Katie Vernoy  15:52 And it does say in the language, and I don't know if this is in the APA article or the actual legislation, but it does say that when you provide a new Good Faith Estimate, you do need to identify what is different. And so if it's, hey, everything's rolling along, same fee, same number of sessions next year, I think it's saying, this is continuing. And it's you know, there's no changes in the fees, no changes in the predicted number of sessions this year, this is for this year. I think for folks where you're changing fees, or dramatically changing the cadence of sessions, I think that would be an important thing to put and definitely like your language of this replaces the previous Good Faith Estimate. One thing I'm thinking about with this is that if you've got a niche that that generally you know, or your lifers that generally have this is how many sessions you have per year. And so maybe it's 48, or 27, or whatever it is, you know, depending on the cadence of their treatment, shifting from every other week, to once a week back to every other week to once a month, like assuming you're kind of still in that number of sessions per year, I think you probably are fine. Changing fees, definitely a good faith estimate. But like if you've said, This is what you're what we were looking at this year. I think that could I think that could work. What do you think?   Curt Widhalm  17:15 I'm not a lawyer?   Katie Vernoy  17:18 Yes, nor am I.   Curt Widhalm  17:21 It's probable, and, you know, any challenges to this are still to be determined. This is all, you know, this is what regulations are going into effect. The HHS has not you know, had any opportunities to enforce any things yet. So we'll wait for somebody to get punished, and then we'll be able to tell you what they're doing. But realistically, it seems like a good faith estimate is exactly that. It's good faith that Yes. Hey, you know, you typically come to three out of four sessions a month, in case you come to more, you know, some months you do make a ball. So good faith, I'm going to put that you're gonna make all of the sessions over the next like five months. And we can evaluate at that point, you know, what's needing to be changed. There are certain aspects of this that I think well onerous, as far as communication with our clients have the potential to make us actually talk with our clients about their treatment more frequently? Yeah. And I think that that's part of what's scary to a lot of therapists is that clients are gonna see, I spend how much on therapy each   Katie Vernoy  18:40 year? I know, that's the part that I'm like, oh, yeah, that's gonna be rough. Most people don't want to think about it.   Curt Widhalm  18:49 I could buy several cars for this. Right? I think if you know, you're not wanting to sticker shock your clients on January 1 With, here's your good faith estimate of 50 sessions at $100 per session, or 200, or 300, whatever your fee is, yeah, that they can see some therapists breaking it down and say, Alright, here's only six months of anticipated treatment. And I'll just put out a new good faith estimate when that one runs out. But I think that that makes us be able to talk about clients progress, as far as what do you think that you need is continued services going forward and to actually review your treatment plans with them more frequently?   Katie Vernoy  19:37 Yeah, I think it's actually a good process to to align this with a treatment plan. I think process wise, I see it as being something like every January 1, I put out my good faith estimate. But I think there's an element to that where, you know, someone coming in in December and then giving a new one to them. January feels silly. So but I do think talking to folks at their treatment plan anniversary, or every six months or whatever your timeline is, and then talking about cadence talking about, you know, how they're feeling, you know, what they're thinking about. I think that's a good process. And I know when I was working in community mental health that was, you know, like, you talked about termination. From the beginning, you know, and I feel differently in private practice, like you might a lot of my clients are lifers, but I think it is, it's really easy to get complacent, when you're just kind of meeting every week, and you're not actually taking the time to look at what are we actually working on? What are you getting from this? You know, what is your financial situation compared to what we're talking about? I mean, for folks that do sliding scale, this could also be an opportunity to SPSS sliding scale and saying, okay, you know, my fee is going to be x January 1, and, you know, this is what you've been paying, you know, is that still appropriate? Are you able to increase towards the, you know, can you decrease the subsidy, so to speak, you know, like, you can have those conversations, it's just a money conversation that a lot of people don't like to have. And so I think this kind of thoughtful, you know, kind of transparent conversation about number of sessions length of treatment, Cadence. And money is important and needed, but pretty uncomfortable for a lot of folks   Curt Widhalm  21:27 being the optimist that I occasionally am, that I think that there are some providers out there, especially when it comes to things like sliding scales, who don't know how to bring the conversations back of, yeah, hey, you got a job. And now you can afford the fee that we had agreed upon before. This does provides those clinicians with an opportunity to have a better touch point, as far as renegotiating some of those sliding scale things.   Katie Vernoy  22:01 It's a natural benchmark. I think the other thing that is interesting on what's being required in these good faith estimates is the client diagnosis. We mentioned it kind of like, you know, do the diagnostic session separate and then a good faith estimate for ongoing treatment. But for some of my clients, they may never see their diagnosis unless I do this, right. And so for folks that don't do super bills, or don't talk about it, don't request their records. And so I think that's another thing for folks, you know, before they provide their first Good Faith Estimate, you may want to be ready to have that conversation because it does show up on the billing, or does show up on this form. And so being able to make sure that your clients understand how you diagnose why you've diagnosed, what you've diagnosed, and what it means how it's impacting treatment or not, it does mean that we need to diagnose our clients. And I think some folks are unlikely to do so when they're completely private pay.   Curt Widhalm  23:06 And I think for people who provide super bills, if this worries you, you're already doing this. It's just you're now with the potential of a more explicit conversation with your clients. And helping clients as Katie just mentioned, to understand what this process is. And, again, this is all very good spirited as far as being consumer friendly. And that's, you know, where it does put some of these onerous things on our behalf. But I think it has the potential because of all of these extra contact points in talking about treatment, and talking about monies impact on treatment, that clients are going to get better outcomes, which maybe I was gonna say if clients get better outcomes, that's good for you as the therapist.   Katie Vernoy  24:02 Sure, sure. I think there's, there's, there's an element of this that feels very paperwork and could take away from the relationship, you know, like, if you have to explain a tough diagnosis that that, you know, wasn't something that was in the regular conversation that can that can impact the relationship. If you have to really dig deeply into some of this. I think it's life. I think it's it's therapy, it's good therapy, but I don't know that it's necessarily I'm not going to just, you know, rainbows and sunshine about like, hey, you need to do this, because I don't know, I think that there are ways that you can make a benefit your client, I don't know that it's necessarily designed to benefit outcomes. The thing I was thinking about, which is an open question, there are folks who do not take insurance because they don't want a diagnosis and they don't want to have anything on record around diagnosis, whether it's based on their job, whatever some reason, they don't want to have a diagnosis. My assumption I'm not reading anything in here that you have to have a full DSM diagnosis, you could do a V code, you could do something that was subclinical. Is that how you're reading it? Or is this an open question where we have to determine like if people want to refuse a good faith estimate, written in good faith estimate? Are we allowed to do so?   Curt Widhalm  25:18 So for those people who are not in network, and if you know, the diagnosis question is a thing. If people, you still have the obligation to ask people, if they are planning on submitting their claims to their insurance company, sure, sure. If they are, you're still required to provide the proper diagnosis to them, you're not not just one that is reimbursable. And so if you are treating somebody for a Z code, if you are treating somebody for something that is traditionally not reimbursed, that is still the diagnostic code that you're supposed to put on there, that has not changed that is already in place. And if you're not doing that, that's insurance fraud. Spanish Inquisition is coming after you.   Katie Vernoy  26:07 Okay, so you didn't answer my question. But all of what I said, What you said was, I agree to if someone does not want to submit any claims to insurance, doesn't want a super bill barely wants a record? Can they decline one of these good faith estimates?   Curt Widhalm  26:24 Absolutely.   Katie Vernoy  26:25 So that they don't have any diagnosis on any paper anywhere?   Curt Widhalm  26:30 Absolutely.   Katie Vernoy  26:31 Okay.   Curt Widhalm  26:33 You as the clinician still need to chart your treatment plans and what it's based on and all that kind of stuff, whether your clients want a good faith estimate or not?   Katie Vernoy  26:42 Are we required to diagnose a client?   Curt Widhalm  26:44 you need to have a reason for treatment, and you need to have a treatment plan that is based on something other than a client just showing up? And you started a session with? Where do you want to start today and ending it with? You're where you need to be? That?   Katie Vernoy  27:03 That may be a whole other conversation. But   Curt Widhalm  27:05 I mean, that that is acting within the scope of your license that   Katie Vernoy  27:08 Sure, sure. So we can have a conversation about diagnosis, but from what you're reading, we could either put a non clinical DSM code and for this Good Faith Estimate, or someone could decline it if they don't want to have a piece of paper with their diagnosis on it.   Curt Widhalm  27:28 Sure, yeah.   Katie Vernoy  27:30 So we may also, at some point, need to put together a, I am declining a Good Faith Estimate form that people sign,   Curt Widhalm  27:38 you know, that's a great idea. You know, it's not like a subpoena where you have to, like, throw it at a client if they're running away from you. Anyway, there are   Katie Vernoy  27:50 Oe I would prefer for an oral, Good Faith Estimate versus a written faith, Good Faith Estimate. I think these are the things that are kind of the to be determined, we'll wait and see if anybody gets sued or or in trouble. But I think there are probably some some reasons why these would not be customer friendly, or consumer friendly, right, is all I'm saying. So we'll we'll table that for now.   Curt Widhalm  28:14 So there are some other requirements that I think are important for everyone to be aware of. You have to prominently post that clients can and are entitled to a good faith estimates. And this needs to be put on your website. It needs to be prominently displayed in your office. I'm I'm on Amazon right now, ordering one of those neon like scrolling things, just put it up behind me in session.   Katie Vernoy  28:46 Oh, that sounds awful.   Curt Widhalm  28:50 Or really just posting a paper a piece of paper that says you're entitled to a good faith estimates.   Katie Vernoy  28:57 And the APA article has both samples of the good faith estimate itself as well as notice the language for the notice. And it has instructions on it. Well, we'll link to those in the show notes. But I think it is big enough that it might be not quite a poster, but still a piece of paper on your wall. And then for your website. I think my suggestion What if you have a section on fees, this may be a reason to post your fees on your website. People have different feelings about it. And I think that would be the appropriate place to have it listed. is in that that section of your website.   Curt Widhalm  29:36 To be clear. You don't need to put on your website. Just a general I expect people's treatment to last 25 sessions   Katie Vernoy  29:46 No   Curt Widhalm  29:47 the language that you need to put out there is   Katie Vernoy  29:51 You can request a good faith estimate.   Curt Widhalm  29:52 Yes, exactly.   Katie Vernoy  29:54 And that's in that APA article. I think the other thing that I was starting to get to get in the weeds and I think this is is more kind of standing questions that will be to be seen. There are a difference between convening providers, which is the person providing the primary service and CO providers, from what I can read the convening provider is the person who has been asked for this good faith estimate. And maybe it's a primary provider, maybe it's just the person they thought to ask. And if there are co providers who are providing treatment with you for the identified patient. So for example, you've got a an eating disorder treatment group that, you know, you've got different folks either in your group practice, or that you do a lot of work with, you may end up having to put together kind of this full package of good faith estimates where everybody's services are on there. I think that's a little bit more detailed than we need to get for today's conversation, I think typically, you're just going to be doing your own services. But for folks who have group practices that maybe share an identified patient with another provider, or have a little complexity, you probably are going to want to reach out to your professional association or legal counsel to identify how best to take care of those good faith estimates is my opinion.   Curt Widhalm  31:10 Yes. If this sounds like a lot of extra steps, you're right. And some of the things that I'm seeing across the healthcare industry is that this does impact smaller businesses a lot more than group practices and agencies, because it is a lot of extra steps and does have time deadlines that oftentimes you're going to need to provide this in writing to clients who want it within one business day. And if you have a very, very busy schedule, this is something that you're going to deed to accommodate, you're going to have to get these systems in place. And you know, our friends over at simple practice that we've seen some chatter in the simple practice community requesting that some of this stuff be added to their platform, I hope that a lot of the EHR systems, we'll be addressing this so that way, it does help to streamline these things. But this is stuff that whether you like it or not, it's here. And, you know, we're trying to give you just a even if this is a, hey, I have to go and look at this stuff. And I need to make some changes now go and make those changes, because this is things that our world is changing, we have to adjust to as providers and our clients are going to be overall probably better for it even if that means that we're not.   Katie Vernoy  32:47 So I want to just before we close up, I want to talk through what I see as a potential path to try to make this as efficient as possible. And so I'm stealing one of your ideas, and then putting together the rest. So I think what   Curt Widhalm  33:00 your plan is everybody quits and go find retirement early on some cheaper cost of living base.   Katie Vernoy  33:09 No, everybody become coaches... Um, no, the plan is, I really like this idea of having a boilerplate, good faith estimate for your diagnostic session. So your 90791 I think the difficulty unless there is like some sort of a form created in your electronic health record, you may have to create this separately, but putting together that good faith estimate. So it is sent over with all of your intake paperwork. And it's part of the the process. So this is the fee, this is the service. I think that the nuance and you can have all of your information, the nuance is the clients name and those types of things. And so I'm going to look in simple practice myself to see if I can figure out a way to do it if if they don't fix that themselves, or don't put that together themselves. But I think even creating, you know, a form that you can upload and send to them where you can, you know, kind of do that that becomes with your intake paperwork, it goes out immediately you're in compliance. I think the next stage is having that good faith estimate that is for ongoing treatment, has all of your information already in place has all of the services and fees in place and then it goes into you know, there's a little bit that you have to fill out for each client that has their information, their diagnosis, and then the number the expected number of sessions, and that goes out after the first session.   Curt Widhalm  34:43 I think it's brilliant, until they change things and that's addressed. In some future episodes. We do know that there is language that is written into this no surprises act that even four out of network therapists might be needing to submit some of this paperwork directly to a client's health insurance company. That part of the law or the regulations has not yet been written. We just know that it's coming. It's reserved in there. And that's what some of the future languages for your member professional association, check out any guidance that they have, as those regulations continue to roll out, we will almost guaranteeing an episode in the future on what that means, especially for those of us who aren't used to talking with insurance companies and what kind of mean now, so we kind of want to hear you lamenting these kinds of things. I can share your thoughts with that in our Facebook group, the modern therapist group, and share it with us on our social media. We'll include links to all of that in our show notes. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.   Katie Vernoy  36:02 Thanks again to our sponsors simplified SEO consulting.   Curt Widhalm  36:05 These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for therapists. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where Simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website or they can do the optimizing for you.   Katie Vernoy  36:29 Visit SimplifiedSEOconsulting.com/moderntherapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code MODERNTHERAPIST. Once again, visit simplified Seo consulting.com/moderntherapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.   Announcer  36:54 Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. 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How Can Therapists Actually Retire? - An interview with David Frank, financial planner for therapists Curt and Katie talk with David about managing finances, including student loan debt and retirement. We look at when to start saving, what to do when you're starting to save for retirement later in life, and how much is too much to save. David also shares his concept of a Money Date and how you should start looking at your financial picture. He also talks about financial planning and when to seek a professional for support. Interview with David Frank, Turning Point Financial Life Planning David Frank is on a mission to ensure every therapist has access to unbiased and fiduciary financial advice! Through the firm he founded, Turning Point Financial Life Planning, he helps therapists navigate every element of their financial lives: from understanding your practice P&L and building a personal budget to managing student loan debt and investing for retirement... and everything in between. Dave earned both his undergraduate and MBA degrees in finance and he also completed a certificate in personal financial planning. He's worked for over twenty years in investment banking, corporate finance and now personal finance. Don't let his love of the tax code and spreadsheets scare you off! You're just as likely to find him with his nose buried in one of Pema Chodron's books as reading up on the latest finance planning techniques. In this podcast episode we talk about: Managing Personal and Professional Finances How perfectionism can get in the way of saving The importance of “just getting started” in saving for retirement Saving money is a practice, not something you figure out once Why it is important to save money as soon as you can Navigating Student Loan Debt Student loan debt and how overwhelming it is to look at these debts The desire to pay off this debt as quickly as possible David's advice to save at least one time your annual income before aggressively paying off your student loan debt The comparison of interest rates on your debt versus returns on investing money Retirement and Investing in your Future “Starting to save and invest young is such great advice… and… it's advice for time travelers” For younger folks, the advice is to save as soon as possible What to do if you are closer to retirement age and you haven't started saving for retirement How to determine when you can retire “No one does this money thing perfectly, even if we start out of the gate pretty strong.” What to do when life happens and you have to start over David's own story of having to start over Societal fear due to 2008 and the Great Recession David Frank's Concept of “Money Dates” Reserve time each week to look at your money Start understanding how much you need to save Idea: go to the Social Security Administration Website to see what you're entitled to in social security How Much Money to Save The money mindset concerns that can get in the way of saving (or even looking at) your money How much money is too much money to save? Emergency funds and the feeling of safety and security The risks of saving too much money Quality of life questions when you are underspending Online tools to identify what you need in retirement, so you know when you've saved enough Actual numbers of what to save for retirement and what you can spend now Financial Planning – When and why to seek help with your money The complexity of the decisions related to paying debt versus investing The number of options available to each person when making decisions on our money Get feedback on how well you are doing on your practice financials and saving for retirement Risk planning, financial planning, estate and incapacity planning The importance of understanding your values when you look at how to spend your money Financial planning when you don't have a lot of money Choosing what you sacrifice when you decide to invest in shiny objects The problem of “shoulds” and getting financial advice from other therapists Our Generous Sponsor for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings. These days, word of mouth referrals just isn't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you!  That's where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in. Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice. They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you. Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST"   Resources for Modern Therapists mentioned in this Podcast Episode: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! David's Website for Turning Point Financial Life Planning David's Finance Quickstart Guide David's Quickstart Intensive Coaching Session (use code MTSG for 20% off) David on LinkedIn Social Security Administration Website   Relevant Episodes of MTSG Podcast: The 4-1-1- on your 401K Making Bank as a Therapist Overcoming Your Poverty Mindset Don't Take Tax Advice From Therapists   Who we are: Curt Widhalm, LMFT Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy, LMFT Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch with Curt, Katie, and the whole Therapy Reimagined #TherapyMovement: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/ Consultation services with Curt Widhalm or Katie Vernoy: The Fifty-Minute Hour Connect with the Modern Therapist Community: Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group   Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcript for this episode of the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide podcast (Autogenerated):   Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode is brought to you by Simplified SEO consulting.   Katie Vernoy  00:03 Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.   Curt Widhalm  00:21 Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.   Announcer  00:24 You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe, and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:40 Welcome back modern therapists, this is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for all things therapists. And that includes money and how we're setting ourselves up for running good practices, taking care of ourselves, both while we're working and towards retirement so that way, we don't have to do this forever. And we can potentially retire someday. And here to help us talk about this is David Frank. He is a financial planner and the founder of Turning Point financial, and he's here to help put the fun back in funds and take the ire out of retirement. So thank you very much for joining us today.   David Frank  01:29 Brilliant, thanks so much for that introduction. Kurt. I'm super excited to be here and to talk about, yeah, all things Money and Finance and even the dreaded R word of retirement.   Katie Vernoy  01:40 I'm so glad you're here, we had a lot of fun working together around the conference. And we definitely I feel like you're a friend of the show and a friend of mine. And so I'm so glad you're here talking about that.   David Frank  01:51 Thanks   Katie Vernoy  01:51 Because I think there's a lot that needs to be discussed. On a previous episode Curt and I had been talking about one of the retirement plans that therapists have is suicide, which is horrible. And, and part of that is just not planning not making enough money. And so to me, I feel like this is an important conversation for us to be having. And you're a great person to do it because you're a financial planner, who has chosen to work specifically with therapists. But before I get ahead of myself, the first question we ask everyone is who are you? And what are you putting out to the world?   David Frank  02:26 Yeah, so as Curt mentioned, my name is David Frank, and I am a financial planner, and the founder of turning point, financial fat is a financial planning firm that I began and it is focused exclusively on helping therapists or mental health professionals take care of their finances. So that's what I'm putting out into the world. That's what I'm doing. My kind of mission is to help people live better lives to help your listeners, your therapists out there live better lives, and also grow their impact in the world. Because when we get sort of some of this money stuff out of the way, we can be more present for every element of our lives. And I think it's less about the money and more about the actual feelings and feeling better about money and not being so stressed and overwhelmed about it.   Curt Widhalm  03:08 What's wrong with you if that you chose to work with therapists? How does somebody be like, You know what there there are people who are easy to work with with money, and I'm up for a challenge. Why? What brought you to the the mental health world as far as your client population here?   David Frank  03:31 Yeah, great question. Well, so within the financial planning community, much like within the therapist, community and mental health community, there's this like raging debate going on about whether niching down and really specifically defining your target audience or target market is a good idea or not. And when I started turning point, when I started my own business, the big thing I was worried about is like, is anyone actually going to show up and want to work with me, like actually pay me money for my services? And the other the secondary concern was like, will I be able to add enough value will I actually be able to, like, really understand what's going on for folks and really help them in a meaningful way. And I became super convinced that the solution to both of those anxieties was to define a niche of who I really wanted to work with. And it was a very, what's the right word, I was just very stressed about getting the right niche. And at that time, I was, I was seeing my own therapist, and I had been seeing this guy for several years, and he was awesome. I was working with kind of a life and business coach, and I was agonizing over this decision. And finally, my coach reflected back to me something that was obvious to him, but was invisible to me. And he just said, Why don't you work with therapists? And I was like, Oh, my it was just like a light went off. That's the wrong metaphor, but it just it felt so right. I love talking to therapists, like I sometimes I think like a therapist. I love learning about their business. And it just seemed like a population that I could help and like you say, like, maybe maybe I'm up for the challenge.   Katie Vernoy  05:01 What do you think therapists get wrong when they think about retirement or saving money or taking care of their finances?   David Frank  05:08 Yeah, I what I see is something that not just therapists get wrong, but just generally most people get wrong. And that's this idea of having to figure it all out or get something perfect, rather than just simply getting started. And when it comes to managing finances, both personal finances and professional finances, like your private practice finances, I think the key really is simply just to get started. And so if we think about saving for retirement, I mean, man, just even saying that makes me feel a little bit overwhelmed, right, like, there's so much there to navigate and figure out. But I think the key is to just sort of get started and meet yourself where you're at and just say, Okay, what you really need to do to save for retirement is just that to start saving. So understanding if you can put away even if it's just $5, every month, just get started, build that muscle, build the practice of saving some money and moving it, even if it's just moving it to a dedicated checking account where you're beginning to build up savings, then like down the road, you can come back and sort of figure out, okay, I should probably be investing this money rather than simply putting it into a checking account or something like that. And it is like it's a practice, this stuff is not a project that you sit down one day and get it all done. And then you're just good. It's kind of like a mindfulness practice is really the way I often think about it and encourage others to think about it is to carve out some time, every week to just spend with your money stuff, both your internal stuff, what comes up for you, when you're dealing with money and finances, and with the external stuff of the accounts that you have in the amounts of those accounts and how you navigate it. So I'm just a huge proponent of just sort of getting started and make taking those small, little steps. And I feel too often people get hung up that like, No, I have to make this big, monumental shift, that perfectionist tendency that so many of us have, can really hold us back.   Curt Widhalm  06:57 So I think in your own way, you've answered a couple of the questions that we would normally ask here, which is, when should people start saving? And how much should they start saving, which I'm hearing you say, early, and whatever you can. So that's kind of the first part of this, for maybe some of our listeners who are earlier on in their careers who are facing things like massive student debt, where it's like, well, I should be throwing money at, you know, getting the government off my back or blowing providers off my back. What do you say to somebody in that position where it's very earlier on where they might be kind of death, avoidant, as opposed to starting to think about investing in themselves?   David Frank  07:44 Well, yeah, a couple of things I want to say in response to that. And first, Curt, I think you hit the nail on the head, start saving as soon as you can, there's this this magic of compounding what we talked about in the financial world. And that just means the sooner that you get started saving, the longer you have, or the longer you give those investments to grow. So the amount that you need to save can are like the percentage of your income that you should be saving toward retirement, it can change dramatically depending on when you start. So if you're starting to save for retirement, say in your mid to late 20s, from mid to late 20s, all the way through retirement, that's like 40 years for most of us. And so if you start that early, you could save like 15% of your income and be absolutely fine. The longer you wait, the greater percentage of your earnings that you'll ideally need to set aside. Now I don't want anyone to hear those numbers and kind of like freak out and prevent them from from even getting started. Because anything is better than nothing in this sort of situation. So that's part of the answer. And we can probably talk more about that. But the the student loan issue, I think is a huge one. And yeah, I mean, I really feel like it's so it's so easy to want to avoid student loans and not even look at them. And what I would say is that, regardless of the type of debt, whether it's student loan debt, or a mortgage or auto loan, or really almost anything else, I don't encourage people to start aggressively paying off debt until they've saved, you know, roughly about one times their their annual income through a combination of emergency funds, retirement account savings, and even just, you know, ordinary savings and other other investments. The one exception to that might be really high interest rate credit card debt, which you might want to pay off. But student loans, especially, the only way that you can really get into trouble with student loans is to ignore them and not look at them. There are so many amazing options in terms of different income driven repayment plans out there. If you have federal student loan debts, I would encourage you to start saving and start looking at your student loans and considering what might the right path be for you because there are so many good options out there. Unfortunately, because there are many options. It's a little confusing and overwhelming to navigate. But there are definitely great resources out there. So super long answer To your question, allow you guys to jump in.   Curt Widhalm  10:03 And if I can provide, you know, maybe a little bit of a perspective on this, you know, if you're looking at student loans, if your rates are like 5 6 7 percent in interest, even that can feel scary. But when you look at like stock market returns over the last couple of years, money that you could be saving 5% on by putting into your loan, you could have been getting returns of 1015, or more percent, depending on how that kind of stuff is invested, where you're using that same money to make your retirement come sooner. This is where having some of the ability to kind of sit and look at some of this stuff. And sitting with somebody like David would, I'm sure walk you through some of these kinds of comparisons of here's how you can make even very little money work for you.   David Frank  10:49 Yeah, I think that's that's an excellent point, Curt. And like that's, that's right. Like, it's always great to be investing the money and seeing really great returns from the stock market, like we have seen over the last couple years, really over the last 10 years, it's been an insane period, where there's been really healthy returns. And you're right, like you could have not pay down your student loans whatsoever. Because yeah, they're probably in the neighborhood of 5 6 7 8% interest each year, something like that. And that's just it's so complicated. Like there's so many factors to think through that I think yes, the more you spend some time just sort of looking and learning yourself, the more comfortable you'll start to be with it. And that way you can kind of avoid making more rash, emotional decisions, which is sometimes when folks get themselves in trouble. And yeah, you know, I'm having a conversation with financial person, who you who you trust, and who can help you make the right decision for you. Because there there is no one right decision really ever when it comes to all these things. It really is personal and helping a client or helping the person sitting across from me determine what is the right move for them, given their life's their their life, rather, their goal, their anxieties around money, their worries, how do we manage all those different things?   Katie Vernoy  11:59 I like that you're talking about it as individual decisions. I think there are some things we're kind of the cold hard numbers with some therapists are great at math, many therapists are not great at math, that's kind of a trope that I don't actually like, I think it's this thing of, of being able to actually look at the cold, hard numbers of what do I save by paying the minimum payment on my debt? Versus what do I earn from even putting something in a very risk free I mean, the stock market isn't necessarily risk free, you could make 10%, or you could lose 20%. You know, there's, there's so much there. And I think some people can hold that risk and are used to that, and some folks can't. And so I think looking at what, what makes sense for you with the emotional makeup of how you're looking at your money, the amount of bass that you have and can play around with as well as what your debt looks like. It seems like understanding that is really important. I think when we're looking at folks who are first starting out, which is kind of Kurt's question, which is like they have student loan debt, most likely, they are not earning a lot. And so you're saying kind of look at the numbers identify what's going to make the most sense, save a year's worth of salary before you really aggressively attack your student loan debt, I would recommend probably paying minimum payments. So you don't start? Well, yes, fee is as well. But like, I think there are folks that want they want to be debt free. And I think there's also a lot of folks who know that most people are never completely debt free because of mortgages or, or car loans or other types of debt that can be accrued. But when you look at folks who are a little further on, and whether it's age wise, or career wise, they're further along, and maybe they haven't saved for retirement, what would you say to them, because I think for folks who are early on and they can save the $5 a month or whatever, that's awesome. And I think that there is that compounding that you were talking about. But there are folks that I've talked to even that are like, I am in my 50s I'm in my 60s, I haven't done anything. And I just don't want to have to work forever. And so what would you recommend for folks who are further on in their life who are maybe further on in their career? What should you say, you know, how do you determine what you should save? How do you determine how and when you can retire? I mean, for folks who are later on I think there's there's sometimes a bigger question mark than folks for starting out. I mean, the message when you're first starting out when you're younger, and you're newer in your career, like just save, start it, you've got a lot of time it'll grow, we promise. But for folks that don't have that time, it's especially people who have recently seen their parents, colleagues and friends go through, you know, 2008 or, or different times when retirement just dropped out completely. I mean, there's some fear there's some societal fear around investing. Potentially you have to look at too.   David Frank  14:47 Yeah. No, I like the way you teed up that question too, because I Yes, starting to save and invest young is such great advice. And I also like to describe it as I'm like, It's advice for time travelers, right? Because it's like yeah, that is a lovely thing, but like who actually does that? I mean, some people do for sure.   Katie Vernoy  15:05 Curt and I both did because of the backgrounds that we have. So we both are very fortunate. But not everyone has that.   David Frank  15:12 No, well, just like as an aside, like, I also have like that similar background, like I have an undergraduate degree in finance, I have an MBA in finance. And so like, right out of the gate, in my early 20s, I was like, I gotta be saving, I got to be putting all this money in a 401k. And I did that from like, 22, or whatever to like, 32. And I was doing great. Like I was killing it. And then you know, life happened. And like, I went through a really rough period in my life, I ended up unemployed for like, three years. And guess what, like, I burned through all those savings. So I thought I had done all the right things. And I had, but like, life just happens. And so the story that I told myself at the age of 35, when I was like, essentially broke and starting over was, like, there were a lot of nevers like this is I'm never gonna have the same amount of money, I'm never gonna have the security, I'm never gonna feel comfortable. It's just like, it's kind of like it's over for me. And the truth is that life had all kinds of twists and turns in store for me, and that most of what I was telling myself then wasn't true. So why do I even tell that story? I think the point is, is like a no one does this money stuff perfectly, even if we start out of the game strong, so just be kind and forgiving to yourself, number one. And number two, you really don't know what the future holds like there can be tremendous improvements made in a really short amount of time. So with that, as background, I would say, again, I have this concept I call money dates, which is just set aside 30 minutes, every day, every week rather, or so every week or so 30 minutes or so put it on your calendar and just treat it as if it were, you know, a client appointment and be like, I'm going to sit with my money stuff, and just look at it every week, and just see what's happening. So that I think, especially if you're find yourself later in life, and you use the specter, you have worry or fear about retirement, just start that practice, start getting familiar with what's happening, start understanding maybe how much you might need to save. Yeah, and also try to bring someone else into it with you. Maybe that's a significant other, maybe that's someone in your personal life, who you feel comfortable having this conversation with, just to sort of make it seem less private and scary. That could also be someone like me, like a financial professional, that you have reason to believe would be trustworthy, and would give you good advice. Because there are always options, there's always hope. There's so many things, different levers, you can pull. And the last point I'll make on this is that if you're really worried First, I would go to the Social Security Administration website and just log in, create an account, see what your you'll be entitled to in terms of social security benefits, it might actually be a little bit more than you're suspecting. And that's just like so that that can provide a really solid base. It's not like you have to pay for everything yourself in return in retirement, we do have a bit of a backstop. So start there, and then begin to think, okay, beyond that monthly payment that I'll likely get, what more might I need? And how might I start to get there,   Curt Widhalm  18:05 I'm imagining these money dates of just sitting around with your financial statements and staring them in the eyes and doing the 36 questions to make you fall in love. Alright. Sounds great. But I don't know also, that it's that far off, when it's actually being able to look at this stuff intently as you're describing, and kind of shifting this from maybe more of the personal finance section to you also work with people as far as their finances towards their practices as well. How did how did those conversations look?   David Frank  18:39 Yeah, I mean, they they really run the gamut, you know, you know, what, what most people want to know, is just like, Am I doing okay? Like, is this okay? And I think the answer is, it's kind of this, I'll give like someone like something I read on the cover of a Buddhist magazine, which is like, your perfect just as you are. And you could use some improvement. I feel like that's always kind of like where I kind of began with this. Yeah. It's, it's, it's just like, that's just the truth, you know, and like, so everyone, like, it's a similar practice of just being like, okay, let's, let's look at your practice financials. When's the last time you looked at your profit and loss statement or your p&l? And for a lot of people, it's like, well, the last time I had to, which is when I had to prepare my taxes last year, and like, from there, like I'm not really sure. And so it's like, okay, let's no big deal, a very common experience. And we can and we can do better. So we can just sort of look at it and just sort of spend time with those numbers and just be like, I don't know what any of this means. Right? Like it's they're confusing. These financial statements are confusing. And every therapist that I've ever met, whether they're self described good at math or terrible at math, can understand them. Because this is just simple math. I think it's more about creating room and space for the uncomfortable feelings that come up. When when folks start to, to work with their practice finances, and it's Working to sort of sweep out of the way limiting beliefs around Oh, I'm just no good at this, I'll never figure this out. Because I guarantee like you can figure it out. And sometimes sure you need some support from a professional like me or a peer or whomever. But it's just spending time. And yeah, asking those 36 questions to fall in love with your practice, P&L, I think is, it's not a bad place to begin.   Katie Vernoy  20:23 That's funny, I think there's, there's so much emotion around money and security. And, and I think everybody, you know, there's a lot of different episodes, we've done with different folks on, you know, kind of money mindset and stuff. And we can link to those in the show notes as well. But I think that there's this idea, you know, we've got the folks that haven't saved anything and just, you know, they're living in a way or practicing in a way where they're barely making enough money to survive, or they're just not thinking about it, or whatever, you know. And then there's folks I've interacted with on the other side, where they don't pay themselves a lot, they save a lot of money in a, like an emergency fund, or they're investing a lot. And one of the questions that you had suggested we talk about is can you save too much? And so, so I wanted to ask about that. Because I think that there are folks who feel very safe, when they have a lot of money saved or set aside. And then and then they don't touch it at all. And to me, I feel like there there's some benefit to that. But I think to a point, and then there's also I think some potential things that can get in the way if you need a gigantic emergency fund.   David Frank  21:41 Yeah, I mean, well said exactly. And I kind of like talking about this too, because having money saved wherever it is, whether it's an a retirement account, or an investment account. It for a lot of people, it feels like safety and security. And I think on some level, but you know, money touches pretty much everything. I might argue everything in life, like every moment of your day, is impacted by money, even if you're just like carving out enough time to not be working or thinking about money. That's that's time, I guess, theoretically, you could be making money, or something like that. So it's so intertwined. And we get so many messages from society around money and why it's important what we should be doing with it. That yeah, that at that end of the spectrum, where it's just like, I want to squirrel away and save, because it creates safety and security, I think, yeah, I think I think there is a risk of saving too much. And it's the question I always ask is sort of, you know, what, what is important? Like, if you find yourself saving a lot of money, ask yourself what is important about having so much money in this account, or what is important about having a big emergency fund, you know, what comes up that there's, there's certainly something going on, and I think it isn't necessarily bad. And yet, I would say if you are constantly finding yourself having to live from a place of restriction or scarcity in that, like, oh, I can't take that vacation. Because I I'd rather be saving money. I can't even maybe take a professional training because even though I feel really passionate about doing that, I need to be saving money. If you find you're constantly saying no to things that would nourish you that would make your quality of life better, then I think there's something there's something you need to look at. And again, it's it's it's likely an emotional issue. And I think that's that's another good opportunity to, you know, work with a professional or also there's like so many, like pretty good tools online these days to help you assess where, where am I really in terms of saving for retirement? How much? Like, how safe do I do I need to be? This is like a personal story about saving so much for retirement, I had a friend who lived in New York, he worked for, I can't remember who he worked for. But he had, he had like a pension, like a really generous pension. And he was putting a ton of money into his 401k. And he was like three years away from retirement. And like, by any measure, he had all the safety and security at least financially that anyone could ever hope for. And he was so looking for forward to retirement, and then the pandemic hit. And he he died of a heart attack, just a sudden heart attack. Totally unexpected. I mean, the reason I share that is like It was tragic. It was horrible. And, and it's life, right? Like we're never we're not promised anything. So I think it's got to be a balance. Yes, save and plan for the future. And just know that there is no such thing as complete safety and security because our life's journeys can end really at any point. And I think we just need to acknowledge both of those facts that yes, we want to be living in the moment and making our current life as good as reasonably possible. And also be planning prudently for the future and then balancing those two and it's tricky.   Curt Widhalm  24:50 Besides just like squirreling money away and the places to put that money and how to spend that money. Are there other considerations of how therapy should be taking care of themselves and their assets. You know, like with your friend example here, I'm sure that part of the extension of this is looking at things like wills and power of attorney type things.   David Frank  25:14 Yeah. Yeah. All that fun stuff. That's yeah, like, I think of it as like, risk risk planning, and then estate and incapacity planning. And as a comprehensive financial planner, those are things that I that I help folks look at as well. And they're things that many of us don't want to want to look at. But yeah, you know, you know, I think when it comes to like, sort of estate in an incapacity planning, and that's the type of work that I will help clients think through, and you almost certainly need to work with a professional attorney licensed in your state of residence to put a plan like that in place. So many folks think, oh, estate planning, that's something for rich people. And yeah, that's true. And it's also pretty much for all of us. So like, putting in place like a professional will, which really just ensures that your your clients are cared for in the event, you can't continue to show up for them the way you do today in your practice, and also having like personal incapacity and estate planning documents in place, powers of attorney, you know, wills, maybe maybe a trust to depending on what state you live in, these are uncomfortable things to think about. It's not comfortable to think about our own potential, passing our inevitable passing, or our potential incapacity. And I think it's really important. It's really, I think, I view this stuff as like an extension of loving kindness to, to your future self, to your clients, to your family members and loved ones. And having having a thought partner to think through what are the right pieces of that plan to have in place for you, I think is is really important.   Katie Vernoy  26:46 The balance between living now and saving for the future, I think is a really tough one. I think along the lines of we could die at any moment. But we also could live longer than we expect.   David Frank  26:57 Yeah,   Katie Vernoy  26:57 I think the retirement age of 65, which, you know, came into place when people lived to be 70 or 75. You know, I think people living into their hundreds, I think that there is there is a lot longer that people theoretically could be retired. We also know there's a lot of therapists who practice well beyond that, because it's it can be a good quote unquote, retirement career. But to me, it seems like there's there's a lot to consider both in how do I live well, today, but also, how do I save enough to really live a long, long life, you know, like, the hope is that you're going to live and be in retirement for 3040 years. Right. You know, I think that that seems that's what I want. And so, if we're looking at identifying, I don't even know if there's a there's an answer here. And it probably is, you know, appropriately and it depends answer. But is there a percentage of our income that we should say, versus a percentage that we should and reinvest into our businesses? Or a percentage that we should use to enjoy our lives? Like, like, Are there standard typical percentages that people can kind of keep in mind when they're trying to make some of these decisions? If they are currently doing that on their own or with a, a non professional thinking partner?   David Frank  28:27 Yeah, that's a great question. And I think you're right, that my answer is going to be prefaced by It depends.   Katie Vernoy  28:33 Of course,   David Frank  28:34 and yeah, you know, and obviously, nothing we've covered here today, including what I'm about to say is advice for anyone listening, right? Like, I don't know, you personally, listener, whoever you are. So I can't give advice that's, that's tailored to your particular situation. But in general, going back to the theme of it, it also depends when you've started saving. So if you're starting to save for retirement, and you're somewhere in your mid to late 20s, targeting saving 15% of your, of your pre tax income. So a quick aside, like it's difficult to know, like, especially if you're self employed, you have your own private practice, how much money am I even making, the best place I think to go and look for that is on the first page of your federal income tax return. I know that's like a scary place like no one wants to go to unless they're absolutely forced to. But there's so many good numbers on it. And there, you will find your total income on the very first page, I think it's like line 16 or something, and that'll tell you your total income. So I would say find that number. And then say if you're in your 20s, multiply that by 15% or 15% of that, that's ideally how much you should be saving every year. If you're in your late 30s, I would say that number should be closer to 25% of your total income. And then if you're around 50, late 40s 50s, then that number starts to get closer to even 50% which is like a scary number. So that's that's kind of aspirational, like who can really do like that's, that's really, really tough, which is why I don't want those numbers like they're not carved in stone. They're rough guidelines. And if you find yourself for not meeting them, that would be a typical human experience, right? Like most people aren't going to consistently meet those. That's okay, just continue doing the best the best you can. And then like, once, if and when you can hit those numbers, then it's like the rest of your money, you need to figure out like, what, what is the right balance for you, and then it totally depends like is, if you can hit your savings targets of let's like, roughly, for most people, it's gonna be like 15, in the range of 15 to 25%. Like, that's mostly realistic. And that's like a pretty solid number that we can really begin to work with that opens up options for yourself for your future self, then they spend the rest of the money in the way that feels best to you, like, yeah, reinvest some of that. reinvest in your practice, like do do what feels what gives you energy, like kind of like, like, you know, what gives you joy? Like that's, that's really how I think it's important to think about   Curt Widhalm  30:53 when you're working with clients, I'm imagining that some of the depends that you're talking about here and getting to know them probably comes very much like therapy, and what do you value would you are hitting some of these financial goals and how you should spend it that for some clients, it might be, alright, you need to start spending this money, let's talk about buying a second house. Whereas for somebody else that might be, you know, what's you know, and see what kinds of, you know, charitable contributions that you can make? Do you ever find yourself in those very, very positive positions, but also on the flip side of that, like, hey, maybe you shouldn't get that doctorate, because it doesn't fit within your financial plans, or any kinds of other like, hold up like, this doesn't seem to fit with the lifestyle and values that you've talked about?   David Frank  31:46 Yeah, I mean, what I like to say, and this is not an original phrase that borrowed it from someone else in the personal finance industry, but I like to say like, you can have basically anything you want, you just can't have everything. So if you really want to do something, for whatever reason, I always encourage a little bit of self reflection, just sort of asking what what is it about, for example, getting a doctorate that feels so important and vital to you? And then if you answer that question to your satisfaction, like that's not it's not my life, it's not up to me what the best use of your money is, if it's really something that's vital and important to you, then the question is, well, what are the right trade offs? So let's, let's just look with some clarity and say, This is how much this is going to cost. In the case of a doctorate, there's student loans and options like that, and just be as clear eyed as we can about the future and say, Okay, here's why you want to do this, here's the why it's important, or here are the elements about it that are important for you. And here's the numbers associated with that, let's just figure out how to make it work well. And sometimes when when, when folks see the other the sacrifices and other areas of their life that they might have to make, suddenly they realize, actually, maybe this isn't what I want, because there are competing employer priorities that are actually more important. And I just, I sort of forgot. So sometimes what I do is just remind people just reflect back to them, what they've told me, or what they've demonstrated to me is important to them. Because as human beings we do with like, we see like a shiny object, and we want to chase after it. And sometimes that shiny object is like really something you should be pursuing. And other times, it's something that's just a distraction, and we just need to be reminded of what's more important.   Katie Vernoy  33:23 I love that I think it's really important, I guess that's the right word, I can think of here to understand yourself your values, and put put an individual plan together, I see a lot of shoulds you should be making this much money, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I think being able to really talk through with a knowledgeable person, you know, what, what actually are my values around this? What are my life goals? And how do I actually plan for those life goals versus someone else's, and and even really looking at individual circumstances, I've had folks that have told me that they don't want to take insurance because they get $5 less than their full fee. And I'm like, you're listening to advice from people in California where they get half of their full fee, you know, and so, like, you know, all of these shoulds and the kind of impromptu financial advice from other therapists and Facebook groups I think is something that we really need to fight against so that people can look at their own numbers, their own situation and make their own plan and so I love everything that you've said. And I appreciate your your thoughtfulness and your understanding of the emotional aspects of it that really make it hard for some folks to do this in a clear eyed way.   David Frank  34:43 Yeah, well thank you that's very kind and and yeah, I just think that word should I hate that it's just like stop shooting all over yourself like there is no once i Mister like they're just there is no right answer really for any of this and Yeah, like advice. I just like, I get so triggered Maybe is there I don't know what the right word is. But like when people give advice, I heard this in a webinar I attended the other month. And the speaker said, All advice is autobiographical. And I'm like, what does that mean? And what he meant was that anytime someone is giving you advice, they're speaking from their own experience. So they're really giving advice to themselves, like, oh, I should have done this in the past, or I should be doing this right now. But I'm actually not, or, or whatever it is. And so advice can be good. But whether it's coming from a professional, like a financial advisor, or a colleague that you know, somewhere, or someone you don't know, but in a Facebook group, just ask them to explain. They're like, Oh, okay, interesting point. Why do you why do you say that? Like, what, what is the thinking behind that? And you may discover that, oh, that, that that piece of advice applies for them, because it's autobiographical, but it's sure doesn't apply to me. Um, or you might find it does apply to you, and great if it does, but it is also individual,   Curt Widhalm  36:01 where can people find out more about you and turning point financial, if they want to reach out to you and work with you?   David Frank  36:10 Yeah, so the best thing for people to do is to navigate to my website, and access my finance quickstart guide for therapists. And that'll give you a sense of what you should be thinking about in your fancy financial life. And it also gives you a good sense of what it might be like to work with me. And my website is turning point hq.com. So that's like turning point, a bridge, the abbreviation for headquarters. And yeah, there's a ton of good resources on there. And I think I will even by the time this airs, we'll have a little simple worksheet that folks can work through to help them determine how much they might, they ought to be I don't, I'm gonna use the word should how much they might want to consider saving for retirement so so they can navigate to the website and find all that good stuff.   Curt Widhalm  36:51 And you've got an offer for our listeners as well.   David Frank  36:56 I do for just a special offer. For the listeners of this great podcast, I'm offering 20% off my QuickStart coaching intensive. So navigate to my website, under the Services description, you'll find more information about that. And when they're scheduling that meeting, if they just enter the code, MTSG, or something like that, I will offer them 20% off when it comes to pay me.   Katie Vernoy  37:18 Yay. That's awesome. Thank you.   Curt Widhalm  37:20 And we'll include links to all of that in our show notes. You can find those over at MTSGpodcast.com. And make sure to join our Facebook groups, modern therapist group, and follow us on our social media for updates on everything that we're doing and connecting you with some of the other wonderful people in our community, much like David. So, thank you very much for joining us today. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy and David Frank.   Katie Vernoy  37:48 Thanks again to our sponsor, simplified SEO consulting.   Curt Widhalm  37:52 These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website or they can do the optimizing for you.   Katie Vernoy  38:16 Visit simplifiedSEOconsulting.com/moderntherapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code MODERN THERAPIST. Once again, visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.   Announcer  38:40 Thank you for listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at MTSGpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.

Should Private Practice Therapists Take Insurance? Curt and Katie chat about the latest data from SimplePractice on private practice clinicians billing insurance. We explore the most common set up for clinicians (a hybrid insurance/private pay practice) as well as how therapists bill insurance, the disparity between private pay fees and insurance rates (and how different these disparities are across the United States), how strategies for growing private practices are affected by who is paying, and how to set yourself up for a successful hybrid insurance practice. It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. In this episode we talk about: Demystifying the most Common CPT Codes E-Book from SimplePractice Looking at the most common make up of therapists' private practices (hybrid: insurance and private pay) The theories about whether to take insurance of not The process of starting a practice (credentialing timeline, marketing, etc.) The benefits of being on an insurance panel (e.g., nearly 100% close rate) The income differences for clinicians at different stages of practice development The average number of appointments per week by type of practice (insurance, hybrid, or private pay) and what that means for your income How well insurance reimburses in different states (and comparing these rates to typical private pay fees) Financial considerations when looking at the insurance rates you will get in your area How to set up your practice if you choose to take insurance The most frequently billed CPT code (as well as others to consider) The controversy around 90837 and how to make sure you get paid Different strategies to build a sustainable business with an insurance or hybrid private practice Our Generous Sponsor: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings. These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you!  That's where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in. Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice. They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you. Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST" Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Demystifying the Most Commonly Used CPT® Codes for Mental Health   Relevant Episodes: Busting Insurance Myths Make Your Paperwork Meaningful Noteworthy Documentation Negotiating Sliding Scale Special Interview: Open Path Psychotherapy Collective   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group  Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode is brought to you by simplified SEO consulting.   Katie Vernoy  00:03 Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.   Curt Widhalm  00:21 Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.   Announcer  00:24 You're listening to the modern therapist Survival Guide, where therapists live, breed and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:40 Welcome back Modern therapists. This is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast where we talk about oh things, therapy, running our practices, that all things therapy, we don't really talk a lot about what we do with clients, but talking   Katie Vernoy  00:58 sometimes we do   Curt Widhalm  00:59 sometimes. But today, we are talking about an ebook that was sent over to us by our friends over at simplepractice. And this is called demystifying the most commonly used CPT codes. And Katie and I come from very different places, when it comes to insurance, and Katie's got a hybrid practice, I have a cash pay practice where we do super bills, and I understand some of this stuff. And Katie understands a lot of this stuff a lot more. And we wanted to be able to give our take on things and help you make some decisions on whether or not insurance is right for your practice.   Katie Vernoy  01:47 Yeah, I think it's something where I am actually in the majority Curt and I don't know that that's well seen the hybrid practices 51% At least have simple practice users and 61% of simple practice users billed insurance this year, and have an insurance portion of their practice, but only 10% are just insurance. So to me, I think when someone comes on to a Facebook group or in a networking situation and says, Hey, should I accept insurance? I feel like a lot of people are like, no, don't take insurance private pays the best. But I think a lot of us in the background are quietly accepting insurance, at least for a portion of our practice. So there's a lot of detail in this report that talks about kind of regular rates, you know, how many sessions are being billed and that kind of stuff. And so I would recommend looking at it, we'll link to it in the show notes, as well as a link to an interview that we had with one of the authors, Barbara Griswold, that when we talked about kind of insurance myths, I think, I think we're coming back around to insurance myths that that episode is quite some time ago. So I think we're going to have some new things to talk about here. But to me, I think the hope in this conversation is that there are folks who will, maybe are considering insurance and shouldn't be. And there are folks who are feeling like they shouldn't accept insurance, but that might actually be better alignment for them. Because I think there's a lot of things that are stated as facts by people who are either like you solely in self pay or private pay practice, or folks who are in very different states. And there's there's a lot of misinformation that I think it's shared or inaccurate information for someone's individual situation. So what are your thoughts? What do you know, as a private pay practice, about taking insurance? And why would you tell people not to take insurance? Maybe let's start there.   Curt Widhalm  03:55 The more of these conversations we have the less that I'm finding myself telling people what they should do. And I will speak broadly to the   Katie Vernoy  04:05 Fair enough.   Curt Widhalm  04:07 Why I see people making some of the decisions that they do. And I know and this is stated in the eBook. Our friend Dr. Ben Caldwell is quoted as saying many clinicians want the stability of income and to not have to market themselves and paneling with insurance allows them to focus on clinical care rather than spending time on marketing. And I think that this is true. There are a number of people who are in our profession who just want to see clients and do work and not have to deal with the stressors of where my next clients coming from. They don't want to deal with a lot of marketing aspects going out to networking sort of things. And for those of you who that's your jam have that be your jam. I am not one of those people, myself, I am. I love the networking and the marketing aspects. It takes a while to be able to build up a reputation in the community with referral sources. Not everybody can afford to take the time to build the practice that way you need the income sooner. And I think one of the themes that you'll probably hear from me a lot throughout today's discussion is just kind of you have to do what's right for you. And there's no one size fits all approach on this. But I also in kind of setting up my practice when I was initially considering applying to be on some of the insurance panels, and was talking with some people in my community, who were panels and hearing how long it takes to actually get panels. Hmm, I found that I was getting clients who were cash pay clients in the meantime, of what that paperwork length of time was going to be anyway. So my practice started to develop cash pay, even while I would have been waiting to get paneled in the first place. So maybe it was just that I was kind of eagerly out there going out and seeking clients and marketing anyway, that at the time was just kind of where, oh, if I'm getting them anyway, why do I need to accept a lower rates of insurance, to see the same people that I'm already getting into my practice?   Katie Vernoy  06:35 That's a really good point for myself, I actually started my private practice while I was working in community mental health, so I didn't have time to market or network or do any of those things. And I, you know, I put my shingle out in an area that didn't have many clinicians. And so I did get some private pay clients while I was credentialing, but I was credentialing without having any clients at all. And without even trying to get clients it was like that was my escape plan, I was going to credential on the side, you know, kind of send those things in. And as I started getting insurance panels, then I was kind of adding clients to my practice. So I think there are different ways that people go about starting a practice. And I think you know, whether you credential or you have someone help you credential, that that is a time gap. I think for some people, it's been up to six months, I don't know what the current timeline is right now. But it can take a long time to get panels, which can be ideal for someone that needs to stay in a community mental health job or a group practice job before they can really go out on their own. I think at this point, once you are paneled, for some panels, you can almost fill up your caseload in a couple of weeks. And so it becomes a an a way to have some solid income. And that stability, because I honestly can say with my insurance based portion of my practice, which is very tight, tiny at this point that I'm going to be private pay very soon. But what I was in the height of my hybrid practice, someone would call, I had a similar specialty or was close enough, and I took their insurance. And it was almost 100%. Close, right. Whereas with the private pay, you know if your marketing well, and your networking well, and all of those things, they may come in already knowing your fee, they may come in already knowing your specialty, and it could be a pretty high close rate. But I've heard more like 10 to 30% close rate sometimes for private pay clients, especially at the beginning.   Curt Widhalm  08:36 Oh, and speaking of the beginning, I also hear in our larger therapist discussions within the therapist community that some panels require people to be licensed for two years, before they can even get on the panel in the first place. And for those, you know, very energetic, freshly licensed people, if that's another limitation, as it was, you know, when I first started my private practice, it was shortly after I got licensed that if it's not even an option to you, and you're looking at developing some of these other marketing and referral network streams. I can say from my vantage point that if my fee is twice as much, and I'm closing only a third of the clients, if that still balances out as far as the number of sessions that I'm seeing, I'm actually potentially even working less than I am if I am panels and seeing fewer clients.   Katie Vernoy  09:36 Well, that's assuming that you're getting the same number of calls, which you don't.   Curt Widhalm  09:41 That is very true, I'll grant you that   Katie Vernoy  09:43  So 100% of 10 versus a third of three is is actually 10% of the clients so so just a little a little math, I think it it does take a while to build a private pay practice it is much more cost efficient as far as your time, and that actually is not necessarily totally true, we should talk about fees in a second. But I think it's something where overall income is very different in the beginning. And then again, very different, when you get to your kind of stable number I think for at the beginning and insurance practice, you can immediately get up to that 50 or 60,000 a year, probably, with a private pay practice, that's going to take a little while, but then you're going to get up to a much higher number, you know, and these are just made up numbers. But like that 100,000 A year or 75,000, a year or 120,000, a year, I think is more likely in a private pay practice than it is in a an insurance practice, or a hybrid.   Curt Widhalm  10:47 And looking at the data from simple practice here, kind of reflecting what Katie is talking about, they have a nice little graph that shows the average number of appointments per billing type in the last 30 days. And those who are doing self pay only, the average number of appointments for the median, I guess, is 28. self pay only over 30 days, that's   Katie Vernoy  11:17 pretty low   Curt Widhalm  11:18 the upper 75th percentiles 55 sessions over a 30 day period. But you compare that to the insurance only. And it's 20 and 46, which are below what those self pay therapists are in   Katie Vernoy  11:36 that. Yeah. And the insurance when the way that that's talked about is those insurance only practice, folks are typically like new group practice, associates kind of that are billing, just insurance, the practices only they're using associates or other folks in the practice for insurance only. So I think the the thing to look at is the hybrid, and the hybrid actually has a lot of appointments. You're looking at it. So what are the numbers for the hybrid practice   Curt Widhalm  12:06 So medians at 55 sessions? That's compared to 28 for the self pay, and the upper 75th percentile is 80 versus 55.   Katie Vernoy  12:17 Yeah, so it's, it's, it's a, it's a fuller practice. Now, whether or not you want a fuller practice, they don't actually say overall income for folks, which I think is interesting, and might be interesting data for them to look at. But I think it's so variable, I think it's hard to say. But I think determining whether you take insurance at the beginning, obviously, if you're not licensed long enough, that's going to be a factor. But I started paneling. I was five years licensed, I was ready to be out of community mental health, or I wanted at least an escape route from Community Mental Health. I got paneled pretty easily. It took a while, but I was still working. And then I was able to start adding clients afterwards. I think if you are able to kind of do the pace of building a private pay practice, that may be the right move for you, depending on where you live. And I think that so the the initial one is, can you have your income ramp up, you know, slowly? Or do you need to have it ramp up quickly? Once you get, you know, panels, I think that's that's the first thing to think about. They didn't say kind of how long insurance clients stay versus private pay. I've got a mix. In my practice, I found that I think more private pay clients are going to finish sooner than insurance clients. But But what is your experience of that? Because you've had private pay for a long time? I mean, do you have a churn rate that's pretty high, where you're having to constantly get new clients? Or do you have clients that stay for long term I mean, I'm a long term therapist, I've got clients for years. So it's, it's a different model.   Curt Widhalm  13:54 I have mostly clients who have stuck with me for quite a while. And while I do have some churn in my practice, I would say as far as my particular caseload goes, that's probably somewhere around 10% of my my caseload. Now, it doesn't mean that I have the same, you know, 90% of the clients forever, but I do tend to have my repeat people coming back after a couple of years off. And so I see relatively few new clients in my practice. So most of my people are lifers. And yeah, you know, I imagined that, you know, if I preview that I'm going to retire in like 30 years that that might create some panic for some of my clients now just knowing that things are going to end so I may not   Katie Vernoy  14:49 We are both long term therapists.   Curt Widhalm  14:51 Yeah   Katie Vernoy  14:52 You may not be the best to say that. And maybe that's another thing potentially if you are a clinician that already has has more of a short term model, if you're already going to have churn with your clients might as well get the best bang for the buck and do private pay or have a huge referral source and get insurance. And so I think it's, it's something where there's a lot of factors in what is going to be the right mechanism for you. The other thing is, is there are very different rates that people charge across the country. And simple practice has that in there, as you know, kind of their private pay full fee. There's also very different insurance rates. And so I don't know if you looked at this chart, but it's, it's crazy, because as California being one of the most expensive places to live, we actually are our middle the middle of the pack or lower part of the pack on what the median insurance reimbursement rate is.   Curt Widhalm  15:51 And looking at this, I have to imagine that a big piece of this is supply and demand, because some of the states with the highest reimbursement rates are South Dakota, North Dakota, Minnesota. And while there is the Twin Cities in Minnesota, there's a lot of rural area out there. And so I have to imagine that some of the higher rates are being either commanded by therapists were like, look, there's nobody else in town to take your insurance, and they're doing a good job of advocating for themselves for higher reimbursements. Or the insurance companies are trying to draw more practitioners to work in these areas. And, you know, in California, like the building that my office is in, I think that there is and don't quote me on this, I think that there is roughly 8 million therapists that work in my building. And so a, and obviously, not all of us are handled with insurance companies. But I have to imagine that the insurance companies could panel every single therapist and be like we have so many people that we only need to pay you $8 per session.   Katie Vernoy  17:09 Well, I think the problem is that's there's I mean, we could have whole conversations about ghost panels and people being fall and stuff like that, because I certainly still get calls from folks. And they they basically are searching for weeks trying to find someone who accepts their insurance. So I also think that there is a an issue in California with insurance because the the average fee, or the median fee for California I think, is $100. For insurance reimbursement, and 150 is the private pay fee, although the the one in 2018, apparently was 130. So there's, there's a big difference. And you and I are both double insurance rates or more. So it's, it's a huge difference. And if you've designed your fee, and they have some information in this about how you can set your full fee, but if you design your fee based on what you need to make, and the insurance reimbursement rate is half of that, that's a huge difference and needs to be a consideration you I would have to see double the insurance clients to make the same amount of money that I make with my private pay clients there, when we look at places like Oregon, their regular full fee is 165. They're one of the five most expensive places to live, but insurance reimburses them at 130. So that's only a $35 difference, you know, and it's still per session, blah, blah, blah. But it is much closer, it's not half of what the fee is, or, you know, two thirds what the fee is. And, and it's a lot more approachable. Texas is another one that they reported on the average private pay fee, or the medium private pay fee is 125. Insurance is only 88. But it's still only a $37 difference. And so and it's also costs a lot less to live in Texas and live than it does to live in California. And some of these fees. You know, Oregon was the highest one they reported at 130. But if you've got a private pay fee, that's typically around 130 to 150. And insurance is paying you 130 It's not functionally different. And if you've got an almost 100% close rate, and can be choosy. And insurance practice may be awesome. Because you don't have to do the marketing. There's consistency insurance is going to consistently refer to you most when I was taking mostly insurance I had to put outgoing messages saying I'm not currently taking new clients. So people would stop begging me to call them back. And so it's it's this thing of there are places in the country in the United States where taking insurance makes a lot of sense.   Curt Widhalm  19:57 And especially when it does save you some of that time to go out and markets and to pay for SEO and fancy websites and all of that kind of stuff. And this is really where you're looking at your cost basis. And, you know, that's having to look at your finances. And that also includes how you value your time in putting that stuff together. So if it is functionally the same, and it does save you a bunch of other time, makes sense.   Katie Vernoy  20:30 I think the big caveat is the number of clients you're seeing, or need to see to make the money, the total money that you want to make. And then also the amount of time that you'll spend on insurance billing, there are some panels that are great, not a lot of, you know, denied claims, not a lot of work on that part that you know, you get paid easily, you know, I have one panel that I'm still on and I'm getting ready to go off of, but I, if they could just pay me a little bit more, I'd stay on it because I get a direct deposit, almost, you know, a few days after the session. And I've got clients paying 10 or $20, to see me like it's, it's amazing, it's really cool. However, there's other ones where I will charge something, they'll pay me once, they won't pay me another time. And then I have to chase it down. And so when you get into more of that, there is a bigger amount of time that's spent on kind of managing the billing and tracking the billing and doing all those things. A lot of that became really easy when I did it through simple practice. So I will, I will acknowledge them for that, that I at this point, I push a button, it goes through, it tells me if it's been denied, and then I can chase it down. But most of the time, I don't even need to worry about it because I don't have to chase it down.   Curt Widhalm  21:51 Now, one of the other things that I hear from you and some of my other friends who are panels is also that you take the copay, but then you might be waiting several months for the rest of the payments to even find out if it's been approved or not. And one of the considerations of having that cash pay practice is my clients give me the money, and then all of the money is mine. Yeah, right up front. And so yeah, there's, you know, anywhere that gets into, alright, you're getting paid, but when and how and are you able to tie those things back to the specific sessions that, you know, might move you into a, this is gonna be a big part of our discussion here, move you into a different CPT code.   Katie Vernoy  22:43 I think there are definitely situations where people don't get paid right away. And I think sometimes it is due to shifting from an individual contract to a group contract. Or if there's like, I had a situation where I wasn't paid because I had left the panel. And I billed for three sessions for a couple of clients right before I was off the panel. And they said I was off the panel, even though I submitted the claims before the final date, you know, like and so I had to go in and fight them for that. But otherwise, most of the time I get paid right away, like within days, and it goes directly into my bank account. So okay, so I think that there, there is a wide array of experiences here. I think if you have a panel where you're not getting paid, or if you get clawbacks meaning they think they say, Hey, we thought it was covered, but it's not give us the money back. I've never had a clawback. Maybe I should knock on wood here. But like, that sounds awful and horrible. And I think that there are things where we can just say there are times when insurance companies are evil and and are they unnecessary evil? Some people say yes, some people say no, but But yeah, I think there is typically a financial stability when you take insurance. However, if you're not getting paid that financial stability doesn't actually exist. And so you want to be pay attention to it. But let's go to the what you were talking about the kind of the CPT codes as well as number of clients. Sure. So the vast majority of clinicians that bill through simple practice, and this is like over 100,000 users, not all of them are mental health therapists. Some of them have other types of practices. But the vast majority, like 10 times the number of sessions were billed as 90837, which is the 60 minute session or 60 Plus minute session versus 90834, which is 38 to 52 minutes, which fits into that 15 minute hour, right? And insurance companies assume that therapists are going to build that 15 minute hour. And they say that most of our colleagues are billing the 15 minute hour but we know thank you simple practice that most of us are billing 90837 which means it's 53 minutes or more. And it means you actually have to be working clinically with a client for 53 minutes or more. And I think some people may fudge that it can't be you waiting, it can't be the documentation. It can't be the scheduling time that you spend in the in the session. It's actual clinical time. That being said, some folks are getting pushed back and they're having to prove medical necessity for the longer session, which is the 90837. I think that is BS. I think it's it's something where insurance companies, I mean, and the rates for 90837 are way higher. So you do a 52 minute session. And it's like $40, less than or $30, less than a 53 minutes session. It's ridiculous. It's, you know, and so insurance trying to get people to bill last are saying do these shorter sessions? Well, Ben's idea is that we'll just do these 90834, you can do a session, as short as what was it? 38 minutes, you could do a 40 minute session. And then if you can see more clients that way. And that might be a way to make more money in less time, because you do a certain number, there's this is in the thing, but like a certain number of 40 minute sessions, versus a certain number of 60 minute sessions. You know, it's about the same and you're spending less time. And I don't agree, sorry, Ben, I just don't agree. Because it's not just the session time, it's also all the paperwork. But then there's also the clinical case management. If you've got 20 people in crisis versus 30 people in crisis. It's a very different workload.   Curt Widhalm  26:41 Yeah, I, I see where Ben is coming from on this from just a nuts and bolts number thing, and I will always remind people that Ben has not been a practicing therapist for several years.   Katie Vernoy  26:59 And love you, Ben, we love you.   Curt Widhalm  27:03 And, honestly, you know, we do have a lot of love and respect for bed and all of the work that he does, and, you know, simple practice, and practice learning and everything that he's got going on. But I think it's easy to forget the Practice Management sides of things. Yeah. And a lot of the managing caseload sides of things that I'm sure that he will very much acknowledge that he's a little bit out of touch on. It's just not practical. I mean, it's just, it's, it's somebody saying, like, well, if people want more money, why don't they just work more? And?   Katie Vernoy  27:46 Well, I think the argument isn't actually the, to work more, it's, Hey, do shorter sessions, so that you, you have less time in the chair. But it's like, but there's, you know, like, even the task switching of seeing one client versus the next client. I mean, that's not even to mention what we just talked about with billing and, and case management. So I get it. And I actually think that that the other message I want, I want to add to Ben's message and say, Why not allow for some of these shorter sessions, because you could see your client twice a week for 40 minutes. And, and have more of that flexibility of billing code. I mean, there's also information in here, and I'm sure this came from Barbara, which was about, you know, kind of using some of these other codes, like, you know, 90846 is the client is family therapy without the clients you can talk to parents and have it paid for, you know, there's there's crisis codes, there's a lot of stuff there that I think is pretty interesting. But, but you can use insurance a little bit more flexibly, you know, and Bill for everything, it's just then you're taking the time to build for everything. I think the other thing is, I think there was a statement like to avoid burnout See, five to seven clients, five days a week. And 25 doesn't sound bad, but 35 sounds awful. And so I think that there's, there's a need to assess your for yourself. If you have 35 clients and they're mostly insurance, I would recommend having a biller so you're not chasing down, you know, fees, you're not dealing with benefits, checks, that kind of stuff. But if if you can see 35 clients a week, then you're different than me. I can't do it. I don't know that I can do 25. So I think it's something where it's it's sorting out what that looks like. And you can you can do some simple math and I think you had started it. You can make a good living seeing mostly insurance clients. It just is really important that you all have your systems are very clean. Probably you have a biller, at least someone to check benefits and chase down things you know, because insurance on simple practice is literally pushing a button once it's all set up. But it's sorting out how many clients you actually want to see. And do you want to do some of these other things? I mean, to your point earlier, I would rather go out and do some networking, then see another client, right at times, you know, like, I would rather write a little blog post or do a podcast episode with you then see another client, like, when I've gotten through the number of clients that's comfortable for me in the week, I could make more money seeing more clients. But I choose to do that in other ways, and to charge more for those times.   Curt Widhalm  30:33 And it's not that we don't like seeing clients. It's that for   Katie Vernoy  30:38 other things, too. Yeah, exactly.   Curt Widhalm  30:42 So, you know, I do hear and read in some of the therapist forums about, you know, some of these clawbacks things that are happening, some of the rejections of that 90837. Is there anything that can really be done about that?   Katie Vernoy  31:00 There's some specific things in the e book. And I think that the most important thing is to make sure that you're writing actual start and stop times, you know, simple practice defaults to either an hour or 15 minutes, and it starts on the hour, or the whatever the time is that you set the appointment, making sure you actually have the time in there to the minute, if you see somebody for less than 53 minutes that you down, code it to 90834. And I think you want to make sure that you know, we've got different episodes on documentation, I can put in the in the links in the show notes. But it's something where being able to document medical necessity for a longer session, that kind of stuff. I think it's important. I think I got something from one of the insurance panels I was on that basically said, You need to make sure that your notes show that you spent that much time and so anyone that's been in committed mental health knows like, you have to have enough interventions. In your note for that for that long of a session. You know, if you're going to go a full hour, or 53 minutes, plus, you need to make sure your documentation shows that you're not processing one thing. And that's all that you've put down in your note. So those are the things that you can do. It's just Ben's idea of doing shorter sessions and seeing more clients may keep you under the radar radar of insurance companies, they don't see you as overusing 90837. I just don't think it's worth it. I think just do the documentation, make sure that you're you're staying true to the start and stop times and hope for the best.   Curt Widhalm  32:36 Overall reading through this, I can say that my reaction is insurance companies aren't paying as badly as I had thought that they were. Yes. And I don't know how to convey to our listeners how much it actually pains me to say that, that. But there are a lot of individual factors that you have to decide for yourself that if you're wanting to see clients, you're wanting the marketing and the phone calls to be kind of funneled to you being on a panel makes sense. If you're somebody who needs to get out of the office a little bit more, you want to put in a little bit more of that work, and you want to operate partially or fully outside of the insurance systems. There's pathways for you there to both have their advantages and disadvantages. But I was really surprised to see that out of the 1000s of users that simple practice has those rates are a lot closer than I would have expected them to be.   Katie Vernoy  33:49 Yeah, well, and I think a big point there is that if you're wanting to have an accessible practice, and you're wanting to do that, for a lot of clients, insurance is potentially a better way to do it, because clients will pay, I think the median copay was about $15. Whereas if you slide down to $30, or 50 $60, or $70, or $80, you're going to make less than insurance. Now, if you're doing it for a couple of spots, you're doing it through open path or you're doing those kinds of things as a small give back, I think that's very much appropriate. But if you're doing it for your whole caseload, where your whole caseload is sitting around the median insurance fee, you will make the same amount potentially more because you will not have to market it yourself. Your clients will pay less than they're paying you now. You just have to get through the the insurance paperwork and that kind of stuff. So I think I think there's going to be different factors for everyone. But if you're sliding your fee, down to 100 or below $100 typically anyway You may make more on insurance than you are right now.   Curt Widhalm  35:04 We would love to hear your feedback and what you're doing with your practice. And the best way to do that is join our Facebook community, the modern therapist group, you can also let us know on our social media. And we'll include links to all of that and the stuff from simple practice and what Katie mentioned in our show notes, you'll find those over at MTS G podcast calm. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.   Katie Vernoy  35:30 Thanks again to our sponsors simplified SEO consulting.   Curt Widhalm  35:33 These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website, or they can do the optimizing for you.   Katie Vernoy  35:57 Visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code modern therapist. Once again, visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.   Announcer  36:22 Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.  

SEO (Search Engine Optimization) is a critical piece to your private practice's marketing puzzle - especially if you're a private-pay practices. SEO can greatly improve the traffic that comes to your website and increase your leads, but is it worth the money? Julie is sitting down with Jessica Tappana of Simplified SEO Consulting to talk about all things SEO!Jessica Tappana understands both the world of private practice & SEO. She is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a private pay group psychotherapy practice in Missouri. In the course of building her practice, she learned SEO and founded Simplified SEO Consulting. She now leads a small team of professionals who are completely focused on helping private practice owners rank better on Google so they have more of the right clients calling.Episode Highlights:What is the biggest difference between Google Ads and SEO?Google Ads - you pay for Google to place your website listing higher on the search pageSEO is organic - you utilize certain tools to enhance your website's footprint in order to place your listing higher on the Google search page without paying Google directlyWhat can you do to enhance your SEO organically?Post regular blog postsUpdate your Google Business page oftenAdd new external links to your websiteMonitor your SEO regularly to understand trendsHow much should you spend on SEO optimization?We recommend going with the speed of your business - there is no need to go in to debt in order to optimize your website's SEO.There are numerous free tools you can utilize when starting on SEO optimization, and those tools can continue to be utilized as your practice growsLinks & Resources:Simplified SEO ConsultingProfit First by Mike MichalowiczStoryBrand by Don MillerGreenOak AccountingTherapy For Your Money Podcast

When Clients Have to Manage Their Therapists Curt and Katie chat about the work (or mental load) therapists often give to clients that is really ours. We talk about requiring our clients to do things that are not helpful to treatment like: manage our time, do excessive paperwork, negotiate through our money stuff, be guinea pigs, or teach us about their culture or other differences. We also look at the impact of these abdications of responsibility on the therapeutic relationship and the clinical work.     It's time to reimagine therapy and what it means to be a therapist. To support you as a whole person and a therapist, your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy talk about how to approach the role of therapist in the modern age. In this episode we talk about: When we give more work to clients (that isn't really good therapy) The mental load or emotional labor that therapists can unwittingly add for clients Time management and the impact of poor practices on clients Being late, managing the shape of the session, scheduling The difference between being authentic and being irresponsible The care you show when managing rescheduling and the impact on the relationship What can come up, especially related to attachment wounds The problem when you consistently forget to get back to your clients Paperwork as a burden on clients, especially when clinicians don't read the paperwork The message you give when you don't follow up on a client's homework When outcome measures feel like paperwork that is solely for the benefit of the therapist, rather than something that feels relevant to the client Feedback Informed Treatment (FIT) poorly implemented Delayed billing, not providing superbills timely Allowing a balance to accrue The power dynamic and power imbalance when clients owe therapists a sizable amount The labor we're giving to our clients when don't have structure on payment (sliding scale fees and payment plans) How our own money stuff might come into these conversations Adding new theories or trying new interventions on clients without a strong clinical rationale The danger to the client's trust in the process if we throw new interventions in each week The mental load of asking our clients to teach about their own experience or navigating therapist bias Identifying a lack of fit or when treatment is over (rather than forcing our clients to do so) Own our humanness and set ourselves up for success Why this work sometimes gets handed to clients (rigidity, therapy culture) Our Generous Sponsor: Simplified SEO Consulting Simplified SEO Consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO Specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings. These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist and when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you!  That's where Simplified SEO Consulting comes in. Founded and run by a private practice owner, they understand the needs of a private practice. They can help you learn to optimize your own website OR can do the optimizing for you. Visit SIMPLIFIEDSEOCONSULTING.COM/MODERNTHERAPIST to learn more and if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO Courses using the code "MODERNTHERAPIST" Resources mentioned: We've pulled together resources mentioned in this episode and put together some handy-dandy links. Please note that some of the links below may be affiliate links, so if you purchase after clicking below, we may get a little bit of cash in our pockets. We thank you in advance! Very Bad Therapy: A Clinical on Unprofessionalism   Relevant Episodes: Work Harder Than Your Clients Clinical Versus Business Decisions How to Fire Your Clients Ethically How to Fire Your Clients Ethically Part 1.5 Diversity and Cultural Competence Special Populations   Connect with us! Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapists Group  Our consultation services: The Fifty-Minute Hour Who we are: Curt Widhalm is in private practice in the Los Angeles area. He is the cofounder of the Therapy Reimagined conference, an Adjunct Professor at Pepperdine University and CSUN, a former Subject Matter Expert for the California Board of Behavioral Sciences, former CFO of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, and a loving husband and father. He is 1/2 great person, 1/2 provocateur, and 1/2 geek, in that order. He dabbles in the dark art of making "dad jokes" and usually has a half-empty cup of coffee somewhere nearby. Learn more at: www.curtwidhalm.com Katie Vernoy is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, coach, and consultant supporting leaders, visionaries, executives, and helping professionals to create sustainable careers. Katie, with Curt, has developed workshops and a conference, Therapy Reimagined, to support therapists navigating through the modern challenges of this profession. Katie is also a former President of the California Association of Marriage and Family Therapists. In her spare time, Katie is secretly siphoning off Curt's youthful energy, so that she can take over the world. Learn more at: www.katievernoy.com A Quick Note: Our opinions are our own. We are only speaking for ourselves – except when we speak for each other, or over each other. We're working on it. Our guests are also only speaking for themselves and have their own opinions. We aren't trying to take their voice, and no one speaks for us either. Mostly because they don't want to, but hey. Stay in Touch: www.mtsgpodcast.com www.therapyreimagined.com Our Facebook Group – The Modern Therapist's Group https://www.facebook.com/therapyreimagined/ https://twitter.com/therapymovement https://www.instagram.com/therapyreimagined/   Credits: Voice Over by DW McCann https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano http://www.crystalmangano.com/   Transcript (Autogenerated) Curt Widhalm  00:00 This episode is brought to you by Simplified SEO consulting.   Katie Vernoy  00:03 Simplified SEO consulting is an SEO business specifically for therapists and other mental health providers. Their team of SEO specialists know how to get your website to the top of search engines so you get more calls from your ideal clients. They offer full SEO services and DIY trainings.   Curt Widhalm  00:21 Stay tuned at the end of the episode for a special discount.   Announcer  00:26 You're listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide, where therapists live, breathe and practice as human beings to support you as a whole person and a therapist. Here are your hosts, Curt Widhalm and Katie Vernoy.   Curt Widhalm  00:41 Welcome back, modern therapist, this is the modern therapist Survival Guide. I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy. And this is the podcast for therapists about therapy about our practices, things that we do to have more successful practices and leave our clients in better places promote healing in the worlds. And today's episode is inspired by a client's comments about the work that therapists make clients do outside of the work that therapists make clients do. And this is the ways that we make our clients do some of the practice stuff for us, or that our bad practice habits end up giving people bad therapy experiences. So this is not necessarily about the clinical work, but things that we do that potentially start to affect the clinical work. And going through kind of some brainstorming on this. And we posted this question the night before recording this out on our Twitter feed, we got exactly zero responses from anybody. So this is a list of things to   Katie Vernoy  01:55 Maybe we should have put it in our Facebook group, where we get responses. Next time guys next time.   Curt Widhalm  02:01 But we came up with a list of things, this is probably a non exhaustive list. And you can go to our effort mentioned Twitter or Facebook group and continue to add meaningfully to this list. But things that clients have identified are also the importance of being on the other side of the couch things that we've identified, the end up just being bad therapy experiences. So Katie, what first comes to your mind on this.   Katie Vernoy  02:33 I think the the thing that comes first to my mind is probably the way that we manage time. Because for me, I worked in a clinic mental health clinic, a mental health clinic where time seemed very dynamic and fluid and things just never started on time. And it was something that bothered me, I equally participated in it. But it's something that I found is important for me, I want to make sure I'm on time that if I tell my client that we're going to reschedule that I have a time available for them and, and that I manage time properly within my session. But I have heard from clients that that is not always the case. In fact, I'll link to this in the show notes, there was an episode that I supported very bad therapy on where a client who reported on their story was given tons of paperwork after their therapist was 30 minutes late to the intake session. And just the types of things with that are just hugely problematic. But like if we're not respecting your client's time, if we're not rescheduling and like managing the rescheduling process, if we're going over which I have to admit, sometimes I go on that one where we don't manage time properly. In this session, we're forcing our clients to kind of work around us or manage the time for us. I know as a therapist, I'm always tempted to manage the time for my therapist, she actually is good with it. But like I still am like, oh, well, I know we need to finish. You know, like, I feel like when that's happening there is there's work that the client must do that doesn't seem fair.   Curt Widhalm  04:21 And the way that this plays out is I've had people describe this to me as we understand that therapists have their own lives, have their own reactions have their own shit that just comes up and a lot of things that we encourage therapists to be out about, you know, hey, I'm going to a conference that's gonna affect our sessions that we need to reschedule things. But I've heard statements around this as far as like, Oh, I'm going to a conference. I need to reschedule. I'm needing to move a couple of people around I'll get back to you in a couple of days with what your options for rescheduling for next week might be. And then not following up with the clients that ends up putting the clients in positions of do I need to call back is my therapist actually going to follow through. So these are really kind of small afterthought things that can have a great deal of impact on our clients as far as pushing some of the scheduling responsibility back over to them. Now, parts of the ways of getting around this is if you have a good, you know, scheduling system that allows for clients to be able to put themselves on your schedule, hey, you know, I'm going to this conference next week, we could spend a few minutes right now doing this or set a reminder for, you know, tomorrow to check back and I'll have my availability up there, and you'll be able to book an appointment for what's available. And that can be one way of helping to alleviate this problem.   Katie Vernoy  06:08 Yes. And I think that the message that we send, if we don't immediately take care of it, or, or have a solution for it, I think is one of I don't care about your session. I mean, to me, it's respectful to take the time to to do the rescheduling, especially if you've got a couple of minutes that aren't going to take away from clinical time. And I think the the message of I've got a few things to move around, and then I will get back to you and not getting back to kind of put somebody in a in a hierarchy of how important they are to you. And to me, it just feels, I think it hurts the relationship when you disregard them. And you don't get them scheduled immediately. Or you don't show the importance of getting them scheduled and taking care of their time immediately. In my opinion.   Curt Widhalm  07:00 You know for some of the clients that I've seen that have described this, it's their people who seem really high functioning in many areas of their lives.   Katie Vernoy  07:11 Sure.   Curt Widhalm  07:11 But this does bring out a lot of attachment wounds, especially if there's been relational traumas in their lives. And it might not be something that is at the forefront of your mind as a practitioner, when you're managing your practice of looking at just how deeply impactful those between session contacts or absence of contacts can end up happening with clients from all walks of life, but particularly from these clients.   Katie Vernoy  07:41 And I want to cover another element of this because there was a period of time, not lately because of the pandemic. But when I was traveling a lot, or I was doing a lot of things, I did reschedule a lot. And some people would say that de facto is disrespectful to clients, and you set your weekly time and you keep it and that kind of stuff. And for me, and maybe that's why I've gotten very comfortable with rescheduling. But if the communication is open, and there's a clear value that you hold for them and their session time, I think you can reschedule maybe not as much as you want. But I think that you can still do it. But I think if you forget to call them back, and you make them be the ones that reach out, I think that's when it gets problematic. I think folks can live their lives travel all they want, do what they want. I think it's just take care of your clients in the process. Hold those times make sure that you make it available for them, and help them to reschedule don't make them do it.   Curt Widhalm  08:36 So is kind of shifting gears here a little bit. But also speaking on responsiveness. You brought up paperwork. So first of all, there's just the sheer amount of paperwork. Yes, and depending on the kind of practice that you have, sometimes agencies are going to have mountains and mountains of paperwork. And from a bureaucratic standpoint, it might be because there's multiple people within the agency who are interacting with a client if there's a medical component of the agency justifying paperwork, and I don't want to do that. But for, you know, more private practice II type places that there can be a lot of good intentions with paperwork, but a complaint that I hear from some of my students, some of my clients about other therapists experiences is does that paperwork ever actually end up getting used for anything or is it just filling stuff out for filling it out sake?   Katie Vernoy  09:42 Yes, yes. I think that's the piece that I that really bothers me. I know. Like when I go to a doctor's office, you know, whether it's an intake or an annual appointment or whatever, so much paperwork, and they clearly don't have time to read it and then they asked Be the Same questions right afterwards. And I know that that happens with therapists as well. I personally probably have a couple too many pieces of paperwork that I feel like I need to have. And they are really just kind of forms that people sign. But all of the assessment stuff I do read, and I am, it's clear when I see my clients that I read it, but I think there are a lot of folks that feel like they have to have all of this information. But there's arguments about having it at intake before intake after intake, you know, like people can argue clinically when they want to ask for all this information, but having so much paperwork to get through to walk in the door, and then have it clear that my clinician has not read it drives me bonkers.   Curt Widhalm  10:46 I was at a presentation several years ago at this point that the speaker was a psychiatrist who was talking about the last days of one of their parents being in a hospital, end of life sort of things. But every doctor that was making their rounds, they learned after a couple of days that they just needed to ask the doctor before saying anything like have you read the chart that. So this is this is not just particular to therapists experiences that overall in healthcare we can get, especially when we're busy really into that habit of just kind of making our clients catch us up on things rather than going back through notes, you know that that P part of SOAP Notes of even just going back and following up on what I also hear from a lot of clients, which is following up on homework, that we assign clients to do things. But if we don't bring it back up in session, we're giving them a pass to not do it. But yeah, it also backs up the quality of our work, or the emphasis on the suggestions that we make when we do ask and follow up on referrals on homework tasks on different ways of doing things that if clients are like, alright, I don't need to do this, or if they're the ones like I did the homework, do you want to talk about it? But the answer, probably Yeah.   Katie Vernoy  12:19 Yes, yes. And I know I've had that happen, where I either failed to write down the specific homework assignment in the progress section of my note, or the plan section of the notes, sorry, or I was kind of waiting to see if it was relevant. And I think in truth, that means that the client may feel responsible to bring it up and feel like they have to manage it, and or they just start start disregarding it. So I think that's a really good one. And I think being able to manage our own documentation properly, so that we can have that continuity of care from session to session, I think is really important. And if we're not managing the continuity of care, you know, I think we joked and a few probably in a few different presentations and conversations about self care, just like, Oh, what was most you know, what was most, you know, resonant with you last week, you know, when you don't remember what you talked about like that that's really making the client, it puts them in the driver's seat? I think there are clinical reasons to do that. But I think if you're structured enough that you're actually asking for homework, follow up.   Curt Widhalm  13:33 And you don't want to be that therapist, it's kind of doing the, you know, the psychic out in front of the audience, like I'm sensing, sensing an H over here. Was there something in your last week that that starts to age? Hey, speaking of things that we can overload clients with your this is from your list, lots of outcome measures without either buy in about it, or showing what you're doing with those outcome measures.   Katie Vernoy  14:06 Yes, yes. Yeah, I think the thing for me is on my therapist for a while was doing feedback, informed treatment. And I was like meh and and she did drop it. So that's good. Maybe I shouldn't say that outloud   Curt Widhalm  14:21 maybe they weren't doing feedback, informed treatment. It was just feedback informed treatment flavored therapy.   Katie Vernoy  14:28 Maybe No, I we did talk about it a little bit. But I was also anyway, that's a whole other conversation that I can have with my therapist. But I think when I'm thinking about that, that was my experience of like, I don't want to do feedback informed treatment. I'll tell you if I need something different. Stop asking me questions. Stop spending time in my session on this paperwork that you want me to fill out is kind of how it felt to me. So I'm, and I knew what it was like I didn't need her to explain it to me. So I also was having my own experience of it. But back in Community Mental Health, there were tons of outcome measures that were put together to, for funding streams, like we had to show progress, we had to do this stuff. And, you know, we had to do them quarterly or different things like that. And theoretically, if you actually use those, clinically, I could see the benefit. But most of the clinicians didn't, they just had to get it done. And so it had that piece of like, here, fill out these 27 different scales. And then we'll be done. And we can get back to the business of therapy versus actually using them clinically. And so to me, first off having 27 different scales, and I exaggerate a little, I think is is overkill, and I think not using them clinically is is just bureaucracy at its worst.   Curt Widhalm  15:48 And don't just blame this on agencies. There are people who, if you are some of my fit people out there, you know what I'm talking about, but it's for the people who think that they're doing fit that aren't, that are just kind of taking up session time, they're not explaining how they're using this information with clients that really just ends up Compounding this problem. Yeah. Now, on the opposite end of too much paperwork is maybe not giving enough paperwork, and not necessarily just assessments, but this is following through on things like super bills. And yeah, letting you know, months and months stack up before clients are reaching out to you and saying, Hey, I'm thinking that, you know, my insurance company isn't going to reimburse me for things that happened last year, that you're getting that far behind. Yeah, you know, the this is things that now start to impact potentially the the contracts that you got clients into your practice with, as far as, you know, if part of clients decision making processes, I'm coming to you because at least I'm getting a few dollars back on my therapy sessions, because of a super bill. This is something that starts to have a financial impact on clients.   Katie Vernoy  17:20 Yeah, I definitely have had clients that I forgot I was doing a super bill for and they reminded me fortunately, it was not too far out. And we were still able to get it done. But I think that's, that's hard. I mean, that's part of the process that we say we're going to do. And if we don't do it, and they and they have to remind us, I mean, granted, this is them getting their money back. But if we've said, Hey, I will provide you with a super bill, we need to live up to that into the bargain. I think there's also courtesy billing and different things. We talked about some of this stuff in work harder than your clients on ways that you can show up better and and maybe even in some of the other conversations we've had on kind of the highest level of customer service, I'll look back and see what we've actually done episodes on, then put those in the show notes. But I think, to me, I think if we're not billing timely, and like with insurance, billing, if we're not billing timely, and we don't get paid, I think we just hold that. Like, if we didn't do it, we don't get paid. But if we're billing really late, and we're also not collecting payments until we know what the copay is going to be, or until we know how much has been covered. We can end up with big balances that clients have. And we know there's there's a lot of guidance around that. But I think that can start to happen. Even if you don't bill or don't charge them a reasonable copay. Like, except like once a month. That means for some clients, that's fine, and you can figure out the cadence with them. But I think if we're not doing things timely, and all of a sudden a client owes like 1000s of dollars or hundreds of dollars for some clients, it's it's overwhelming, and it creates a little bit of a rupture within the therapy relationship.   Curt Widhalm  19:02 It really does heighten the power imbalance that not only are the traditional therapist client power balances there, but then it's also this is somebody that I'm indebted to, and especially if it's multiple sessions that for whatever reason, that therapist hasn't built the client, then clients might not actually be bringing that up. And, you know, not everybody's great at budgeting their money. So if they get hit with multiple sessions of Yeah. You're then putting yourself into, at best trying to work out a payment plan with them. versus, you know, potentially, it being the end of the therapeutic relationship and somebody that owes you money just as potentially gone.   Katie Vernoy  19:56 Yeah, I mean, I think that is loss of money for clinicians, and I think we should be pretty motivated to not do that. But I think about like setting up payment plans or even like a sliding scale when there's not any structure to it's like kind of pay what you can. There is a clinical element to this, I think. But I think there's also some emotional labor that we're giving to our clients to try to figure out what they can say they can afford that feels acceptable to you, or what their timeline is for the payment plan, or whatever it is, and all of a sudden, this relationship has become very different. And I feel like the more structure that the therapist can give, the less we're putting our money stuff on our clients, because I think sometimes sliding scales and pay payment plans and stuff like that are very needed. And sometimes they're because clinicians aren't willing to turn folks away or refer folks to appropriate resources. And so then it becomes this weird push pull of, well, if you can get high enough, then maybe I can see you. And, you know, it's it really becomes this weird dynamic. And maybe that's overstating it, but it feels really strange to me, I feel like it's been a lot, it's a lot easier when someone has a specific copay, or I say, This is my fee, and they say yes or no.   Curt Widhalm  21:13 Why longer that I practice, because of some of these points, the more that I look at things from a practice management, and that it simplifies things. And I look at it from a legal and ethical end to that, it's acknowledging that as the providers, we have the responsibilities to set boundaries, especially around kind of more taboo sort of things in polite society that we don't talk about money in this way. It puts us in the position of even if we're very equal, driven in the way that we approach the work that we do with our clients that this is just kind of handing off all of that responsibility as you described.   Katie Vernoy  22:02 Yeah. I mean, I feel like there's probably a mechanism to have a Pay What You can practice, and I am thinking of someone in particular, and I have a sense that she's probably doing it very well. And so maybe I'm gonna reach out to her so you know who you are, I'm reaching out to you. But I feel like it has to be handled very, very well. And there needs to not be kind of this ulterior motive around it, because then it's like, I'm putting my stuff on you versus really opening up my practice to exactly what you can pay. If you can pay $2, or you can pay $250, you're in the door is a very different thing, then, what can you pay? Can you pay this? Can you pay that? Well, I can only do this, can you do that? Like it just this the bargaining, I feel like just creates a completely different relationship. And maybe maybe I'm too in my own money stuff and need to solve it. But I feel like that's putting our stuff onto the clients.   Curt Widhalm  22:58 So switching gears here, some, a lot of us love to add new skills to our practice, add new tips, add new interventions, add new theories, and you're encouraged to practice them. Yes. But clients who know that they're the ones who are being practiced on, it should be done in a way that they are buying into, it's not just, I came from this workshop this weekend, and this is the first time that I am using all of these interventions, that that is doing therapy that is not practicing therapy, and that is doing therapy poorly. And   Katie Vernoy  23:40 yeah,   Curt Widhalm  23:41 go ahead.   Katie Vernoy  23:41 I was just gonna say, I know that I've been guilty. Sometimes I'm like, this is such a cool intervention. And I was thinking about you the whole time. And I think it would be great. And then we try it. And sometimes it's cool. And sometimes it's like, Oh, I was way more excited about that than I really thought about it. So I know I'm guilty of this.   Curt Widhalm  24:01 And I think it's natural, especially earlier in our careers to want to try out and especially as you're trying to find what your theory is that part of getting a theory is just trying things out and being able to see what works for you. But I've had clients respond back or heads supervisees clients that this ends up becoming discussions and supervision of, well, that's nice, but what's your success rate with this that makes them even just question the effectiveness, whether they're, whether the clinician is good at it or not. That just kind of devalues the belief that it's actually going to work from the clients end.   Katie Vernoy  24:47 Yeah. Yeah, I think the longer I work with a client, the more we're able to kind of play around with new things, see what's happening, but like if it's especially a newer client, where it feels like I'm coming in each week with a completely new theory. Without a lot of understanding, yeah, it feels like I'm just grasping at straws. And so I think it is important, regardless of how excited you are of an orientation, or a new new intervention that you really, how does that flow into the work that's already happening? Is it relevant? Or is it just does it just sound like fun? I think some of the folks who read us putting a mental load on our clients will probably think this is what we were going to talk about. So I want to make sure we do talk about it. This is what we talked about all of the podcasts, I didn't want to miss it. What I put together my little list, which is us, not having knowledge, especially cultural or specific demographic kind of information, and asking our clients to teach us, I think this across all of our clinical episodes is basically what every clinician who's talking about a population of folks that we didn't necessarily learn about in grad school, says is that what they get wrong, is that they make clients teach them. And they also make bad assumptions and all of that. And so then the clients, if they stay has to do the work of teaching us they have to do the work of navigating our bias, they have to determine if it's if we're the right therapist for them. And so I think, I don't know that we have to go deeply into this topic, because like, probably three quarters of the episodes of our podcast, maybe that's an exaggeration, half of the episodes of our podcast on this very thing. But I think what we're requiring our clients to teach us about that, all that makes them them from the ground up versus coming from a place of I have some knowledge, and how does that impact your life? And tell me a little bit more about your particular perspective? I think that is an emotional load that I think is extremely harmful for us to put on the clients.   Curt Widhalm  26:56 And I think if you approach that as more likely to be harmful than not from that approach. Yeah, it's not to say that it doesn't work. And you know, despite all of the experience that I have in my career, that sometimes it's even just owning my side of the street of here's my experience with this particular presentation, this particular culture, even sharing with them from session to session. Here's what I've been reading about since last time, as it pertains to this area that demonstrates a better way of handling this, as opposed to, hey, why don't you teach me about your fill in the blank difference of culture from mine, that assumes kind of that dominant thing. So if that dead horse is not already beaten.   Katie Vernoy  27:54 But we'll, we'll, a link to a section of our podcast episodes that has a lot of those types of beginning beginner information that you can start with if you've got a client that has some differences that you don't know much about.   Curt Widhalm  28:09 And I think that that goes into the next thing on your list here, which is identifying a lack of fit overall, yeah. With and this doesn't have to be just immediately before the first session, but even in the first session or so appropriately, being able to say, I don't think that I can help you. Or there's somebody who is better at helping you or my skills, don't line up with what you need out of therapy at this point. And then providing a warm handoff to somebody who can, that, you know, it's hard enough for many clients to, especially first time therapy seekers find a therapist that meets many of their requirements, costs, location, specialty, this kind of stuff. And then to just kind of throw those clients back to the beginning of the process is a very difficult aspect of just where our healthcare system is. But this is part of why we build the networks that we do to say, Hey, I know somebody who might be a better fit for you on this than I am. And being able to own that in a non shaming way.   Katie Vernoy  29:27 We've talked about this a few times, and we have a couple of episodes on how to fire our clients ethically, if you've started down the path and recognize that you're not the right therapist for them. And so being able to, you know, whether it's identifying that you're not a fit anymore, or they might need somebody else at this point, I think that's our responsibility and not our clients kind of fading away. And to that point, we need to be the ones that identify the end of treatment, when it's clinically relevant. If it's like, Hey, I've got what I need. I'm going to come back later, or those types of things that can be either collaborative, or the clients choice, the client can always choose to end treatment. But if you're recognizing it's time to end treatment, and you don't say it, because you don't want to lose a client, then the client has to say it later. And that's not fair to them.   Curt Widhalm  30:19 So all of these are extra considerations for helping your clients having good experience with your management of your practice of being able to come to therapy for the reasons that they think that they're coming to therapy for. And, you know, I think that we've probably got a upcoming episode here to be recorded, but helping to talk with clients about what realistic expectations of therapy are, yeah, that if we're really honest about it, it's, you know, realistic expectations. If your honest list is, I'm going to be late on emailing you things, or I'm going to be chaotic and scheduling you. But we encourage you to own your stuff. If you wouldn't feel comfortable owning that to potential clients. These are ways of being able to consider the impacts and really being able to look at your own therapeutic relationships with your therapists of what goes beyond just what's happening in the therapy room.   Katie Vernoy  31:31 And I think there are many of these things that probably each of us, you know, I'm talking about you and me, as well as, as all of our listeners, we there's many of these things that we've all done at some point. And I think part of it is being human, we get excited about a treatment and we try it before we really think through the whole clinical plan, or we're late or we forget to get back to our client or whatever it is like I think all of us have at least a few if not all of these somewhere in our history. I've been a therapist for 20 years. So of course these things have come up. But I think if we can own our humaneness and set ourself up for success, we minimize these things. Yes. And I think if we don't get overwhelmed, we don't, you know or don't aren't consistently in a state of overwhelm, I think we can manage these things a lot better. I think the reasons that I came up with it, sometimes these things happen that I think are worth investigation, and maybe in another conversation about clinical orientation, or how we view ourselves in the profession. But I do feel like there is a rigidity that sometimes happen. And I've seen this in in some different kinds of topics. And we talked about it a little bit in some recent episodes. But when we feel like our clients need to take on this emotional load, because it's their responsibility, or it's part of the clinical element of things, you know, clients must do this, because it's their thing. I just, I feel like I need to remind folks like, therapy is a weird beast, we do things in a particular way. And is there's a culture that we've created around what therapy is what the relationship looks like, all of these things that our clients may not know. And so the fact that they should remember their appointment time, or they should do, they should always be the one managing their scheduling, or whatever it is, you know, like, if there's something that they should do that if they don't do it, then it's clinically indicated. And I create sometimes there's clinical communication that can happen there. But when we when we put our filter of what a good therapy client does over someone who maybe has never had therapy or has never had therapy with you, you're putting stuff on them that I don't think is necessarily accurate.   Curt Widhalm  33:54 So, we'd love to hear your thoughts on all of this stuff you can let us know on our social media or come join our Facebook group, the modern therapist group. And until next time, I'm Curt Widhalm with Katie Vernoy.   Katie Vernoy  34:08 Thanks again to our sponsor Simplified SEO Consulting.   Curt Widhalm  34:12 These days, word of mouth referrals just aren't enough to fill your caseload. Instead, most people go to Google when they're looking for a therapist. And when they start searching, you want to make sure they find you. That's where simplified SEO consulting comes in. It's founded and run by a private practice owner who understands the needs of a private practice, and they can help you learn to optimize your own website or they can do the optimizing for you.   Katie Vernoy  34:35 Visit simplified Seo consulting.com forward slash modern therapist to learn more. And if you do decide to try your hand at optimizing your own website, you can get 20% off any of their DIY SEO courses using the code modern therapist. Once again, visit simplifiedSeoconsulting.com/moderntherapist and use the code modern therapist all caps.   Announcer  35:00 Thank you for listening to the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide. Learn more about who we are and what we do at mtsgpodcast.com. You can also join us on Facebook and Twitter. And please don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss any of our episodes.

SEO (Search Engine Optimization) sounds big and complicated. And, it can be! But don't fret - there are many ways for healers and helpers to get the info they  need to either DIY or hand-off their SEO needs to the right person with confidence. SEO is ALL about being seen - so let's talk about how to help "your people" find you on the web! Join Jamie and Olivia as they chat with special guest, Danica Wolf, about all things SEO for healers and wellness professionals in business. Since there is just SO much information to share, this is a 2-part series, with Part 1 Exploring the basic concepts and Part 2 taking a deep dive into specific tools that you can start using today to build your SEO.  Meet Danica: Danica is a life-long learner and self-described business strategy nerd. She is a talented writer and content strategist with multiple business interests. Danica has served as an advocate for survivors of sexual and relationship violence and as a birth doula, while also educating students at two Universities in the midwest. As the Director of SEO Services at Simplified SEO Consulting, Danica loves helping as many people as possible find their best fit for mental health and wellness services across the globe. SEO Tools Discussed in Episode: SEMRush Keyword Finder Keywords Everywhere (6 a day for free) Google Trend - Free Answer the public (2 day for free) Quora Special Offer Alert! 20% off of any of our DIY Online SEO Course with promotional code VISIONARIES Connect with Danica: Email Website Facebook Instagram Thanks for joining us here on The Visionaries Collective Podcast! Connect with us, grab helpful resources, and learn more about our work at https://www.thevisionariescollective.com/ To join in on the discussion, hop on over to our free facebook group, The Visionaries Collective Community FB Group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/BYBScommunity/ and introduce yourself to us! Love this and want more? Please hit subscribe + rate and review the Podcast on Apple Podcast. We appreciate your support!

SEO (Search Engine Optimization) sounds big and complicated. And, it can be! But don't fret - there are many ways for healers and helpers to get the info they  need to either DIY or hand-off their SEO needs to the right person with confidence. SEO is ALL about being seen - so let's talk about how to help "your people" find you on the web! Join Jamie and Olivia as they chat with special guest, Danica Wolf, about all things SEO for healers and wellness professionals in business. Since there is just SO much information to share, this is a 2-part series, with Part 1 Exploring the basic concepts and Part 2 taking a deep dive into specific tools that you can start using today to build your SEO.  Meet Danica: Danica is a life-long learner and self-described business strategy nerd. She is a talented writer and content strategist with multiple business interests. Danica has served as an advocate for survivors of sexual and relationship violence and as a birth doula, while also educating students at two Universities in the midwest. As the Director of SEO Services at Simplified SEO Consulting, Danica loves helping as many people as possible find their best fit for mental health and wellness services across the globe. Special Offer Alert! 20% off of any of our DIY Online SEO Course with promotional code VISIONARIES Connect with Danica: Email Website Facebook Instagram Thanks for joining us here on The Visionaries Collective Podcast! Connect with us, grab helpful resources, and learn more about our work at https://www.thevisionariescollective.com/ To join in on the discussion, hop on over to our free facebook group, The Visionaries Collective Community FB Group at https://www.facebook.com/groups/BYBScommunity/ and introduce yourself to us! Love this and want more? Please hit subscribe + rate and review the Podcast on Apple Podcast. We appreciate your support!

SEO and online marketing can be steep learning curves for mental health practitioners who have their own practices. It's important for mental health practitioners to engage in ethical, online marketing and SEO strategies. In today's episode, Jessica Tappana from Simplified SEO Consulting talks all about SEO, key words, google reviews, and best practices when it comes to ethical marketing strategies. Want to connect with Jessica Tappana at Simplified SEO Consulting? https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com/ (https://simplifiedseoconsulting.com) Want to connect with the Protecting Your Practice Co-Hosts? Find us at: protectingyourpractice.com FB: @protectingyourpractice IG: @protectingyourpractice To work with Dan if you're a mental health practitioner in Maryland, go to: https://danielmayerlaw.com/ (https://danielmayerlaw.com/ ) To consult with Melissa about your private practice and group practice questions, go to: intentionalpractice.net

In this episode, Jessica from Simplified SEO Consulting joins the show. First, Jessica explains how she has learned to accept her imperfections when it comes to time management. Remember, therapists can't be all things to all people all of the time! Plus, Jessica tells us what she has done to make her email inbox so much more manageable. Tune in as Jessica gives loads of tips on SEO and how to get your counseling website to rank higher on Google.  Meet Jessica Tappana Jessica Tappana started her private practice on her maternity leave about 20 months ago. After filling up in only a matter of months, she decided to bring on other therapists as 1099s and transitioned Aspire Counseling into a group practice. Worried about how she would fill the caseloads of these new therapists, Jessica tried several different marketing strategies.  Ultimately, she decided to focus on getting her website to the first page of Google and began teaching herself SEO at nights after her kids were in bed. Slowly after gathering a couple of tips here and there, she got her website to the first page for nearly every keyword she targets.  Aspire Counseling has grown to now include five therapists and a virtual assistant! In fact, all of the therapists are nearly full, and Jessica hopes to find a few more quality team members in the months to come. Meanwhile, Jessica has discovered a passion for teaching other private practice owners what she has learned about website Search Engine Optimization.  As a private practice SEO Consultant, she has had the opportunity to work with therapists from around the country sharing her SEO secrets.  She's both optimized websites for private practices AND has taught therapists how to do the SEO work themselves through Zoom meetings and enjoyed watching their sites begin to climb to the first page of Google even in larger metropolitan areas like Atlanta or Houston.  Recently Jessica released a FREE 7-day e-mail series that teaches therapists all the necessary information they need to know and has received positive feedback across the board from other practice owners who are raving about the vast amount of information covered in only seven e-mails. Accepting Imperfections Around Time Management Accepting your imperfections and accepting your reality will be critical when it comes to time management. Some people always think they can see one more client during the day. However, you'll start to realize that's not always practical. In reality, you can do better if you accept your limitations as a private practice owner and as a therapist. Drawing boundaries will help you stay more present in everything that you do. Remember, you can't be everything to everyone all of the time. When you have healthy boundaries between work and your personal life, you will be a better therapist because of it. Managing Your Email Inbox Jessica has started getting some help with managing her email inbox. Many people find that they put incredible pressure on themselves to respond to emails immediately or within twenty-four hours. Depending on how full your inbox is, that can be impossible. That's why Jessica is outsourcing help for her email work. Of course, there are emails that she needs to respond to personally. However, those go into a particular folder for her to check periodically. In fact, Jessica is getting help from Uriah Guilford, who made an appearance on The Practice of Therapy Podcast episode 176. His 7-Day Email Transformation Challenge has been a total game-changer for Jessica and how she runs her inbox.   Outsourcing Your SEO Jessica outsources a lot of her private practice SEO. Even though Jessica is knowledgeable in SEO, she has trained all her staff to do it. Jessica realized that she doesn't need to be the one to optimize all of her blog posts. When Jessica first started her website, absolutely no one was clicking on it. However, Jessica learned everything she needed to know about SEO and applied it to her counseling website. Now, Jessica has a full practice and a thriving business. At Simplified SEO Consulting, Jessica helps her clients get to the top of search engines. That way, therapists can fill their caseloads and reach their ideal clients. If you're looking to learn more about SEO, Jessica has Online SEO Courses for DIY Practice Owners. SEO Tip: Content Is Key Content will be your best asset when it comes to SEO for your private practice website. Therapists are always worried about writing the right thing. When you write a lot on your website, therapists often think that their potential clients aren't going to read the content. Well, Jessica says a great way to improve readability is by creating subheadings for your content. That way, if someone is scanning the page, they can find exactly what they are looking for when reading the subheadings. You need enough information on your website for Google to know what your content is all about. If you don't have enough content, Google won't pull your website up when someone is making a search. Having A Niche Is Critical For Your SEO When you have a niche, SEO content will be a breeze. Instead of having fifty different specialties, you can narrow it down to a select few. When you narrow it down, you can write all sorts of things about those niches. If you niche down and write a whole page about depression, that's a great start. Then, write blog posts on how to combat depression, tips for dealing with depression, what to know about depression. That way, Google starts to see that this website knows a lot about depression. When people search for help with depression, your website will pop up. Being transparent… Some of the resources below use affiliate links which simply means we receive a commission if you purchase using the links, at no extra cost to you. Thanks for using the links! Jessica's Resources Aspire Counseling MO Simplified SEO Consulting  Email: Jessica@SimplifiedSEOConsulting.com Resources  Use the promo code "GORDON" to get 2 months of Therapy Notes free. Solo to Group Practice: Adding More Therapists to Grow Your Time & Income Money Matters In Private Practice | The Course Get your FREE Financial Analysis Guide... Google Workspace for Therapists | The E-Course Purchase The Full Focus Planner™ Join my Focus Groups Session Note Helper 3.0 Join the Google Workspace for Therapists Users Group Cool Resources Follow @PracticeofTherapy on Instagram Meet Gordon Brewer, MEd, LMFT Gordon is the person behind The Practice of Therapy Podcast & Blog. He is also President and Founder of Kingsport Counseling Associates, PLLC. He is a therapist, consultant, business mentor, trainer, and writer. PLEASE Subscribe to The Practice of Therapy Podcast wherever you listen to it. Follow us on Twitter @therapistlearn, and Pinterest, “Like” us on Facebook.

Jessica Tappana believe in the power of therapy to transform lives when clients are able to easily find the therapist who is the right fit. In addition to her private practice in Missouri, Jessica founded Simplified SEO Consulting to give mental health professionals the resources they need to get their website ranking well and in front of more of the clients they love to serve. Jessica's favorite part of running Simplified SEO Consulting is watching her SEO Specialists grow their own skills even beyond her own and hearing the success stories of former clients who now have a steady stream of calls from the right clients.