Podcast appearances and mentions of bob let

Related blog post: https://billatnapier.medium.com/cryptography-fundamentals-commutative-encryption-19ba4c4c2173 Introduction What's at the core of cryptography? Well, the simple EX-OR holds a special place, as we can do not lose any information when we apply it. For a bitwise operation of 0 EXOR 0 gives 0, 0 EXOR 1 gives 1, 1 EXOR 0 gives 1, and 1 EXOR 1 gives 0.  And, so, cryptographers dream of the perfect cipher. And that cipher is a one-time pad. Basically, we generate a one-time use key for our plaintext, and then EX-OR them together, and then just EX-OR again with the same key and we will get our plaintext back. Unfortunately, we can only use it once and need to generate another one. So, let's see if we can generate something similar but just use the simple XOR method for our encryption and decryption. In the Tor (The Onion Router) network, data is encrypted with a key from each of the Tor routing nodes. Thus, if we have three nodes of A, B and C, with A as the entry node and C as the exit node. For this, the user will generate a separate key for each node to use and encrypt with the key of A, then the key of B, and then the key of C. The encrypted data is passed to A, and which will decrypt with its key, and pass the encrypted data onto B, and who will decrypt with its key. Finally, C will decrypt with its key, and the data will be decrypted. This protects the data as it is routed. But we have to remove the keys in the reverse order they were applied. One way to do this is with commutative encryption. Using a hasp When I worked as an electrical engineer, we had a hasp to isolate the electric power on a device we were working on: With this, each person who was working on the equipment, would put on their own padlock, and where we could not put the power back on, until all the padlocks had been taken off. The padlocks could be put on in any order, and taken off in any order, but there was no way to putting the power back on, until everyone had taken their padlock off. So how could we do this with data. Let's say that Bob, Alice and Carol want to apply their “data hasp”, so that the data cannot be revealed until they have all taken off their padlock. Well, with symmetric key block ciphers, such as AES, we cannot do this, as we must decrypt in the reverse order of they keys being applied: To encrypt: Bob → Alice → Carol … and then to decrypt: Carol → Alice →Bob There are ways to do it with RSA, such as with SRA [here], but these methods significantly reduce the security of the process. The solution is to use a stream cipher, as we basically just X-OR the data when we are encrypting, and then X-OR again with the same key when we decrypt. We can apply multiple keys to the data, and in any order and it will always decrypt properly once we have applied all the keys. What we need with commutative encryption is to have an encryption string which is the same length as the data string. To make the encryption string, we can use an XOF (eXtendable-Output Functions) and where we can create a hash value of a given size. For this, rather than the fixed hash of SHA-3, we can use the SHAKE. Or with With BLAKE2b we have an XOF of BLAKE2XB, and for BLAKE2s we have an XOF of BLAKE2XS. We can then basically have a secret passphrase, and which generates an output which matches the length of the plaintext. Another method we can use, is to generate an pseudo infinitely long encryption key which is the same length as the plaintext — in the same way that a stream cipher works. A simple application: Booking a ticket With the ever increasing number of breaches, we are moving to a world where companies should not hold any personally sensitive information, as it is just too risky. So how could we create a trustworthy system, where someone can show up with a ticket, and where we can trust it, without actually revealing any personal information about where the person has booked their seat? So how can we generate a receipt of the booking, but not give away your identity, or the details of the booking? Let's take an example of booking a seat in a theatre at the festival, and how your privacy can be respected, but where the theatre will trust the ticket. Let's say there are 100 seats in a theatre, and I want to book one of them, but I don't want the theatre company to know which seat I've booked, or my identity. I also want a receipt of purchase that they can verify my booking. One way would be to get a trusted agent to look after the bookings, but I don't trust them either. So how can we do this? Well it can be done with commutative encryption. The steps would be: Initially the theatre company generates 100 receipts for each of the seats, and then encrypts them with its public key. Next when I want to make a booking they send me the encrypted receipts that they have left, and I select one at random, and then encrypt it with my public key. I send them all back, including the one I've encrypted. The theatre checks to see which one has been changed, and then decrypts it with its private key, and sends it back to me. I decrypt with my private key, and I can now view the receipt for my booking, and the theater company cannot determine which seat I have, but I will have the receipt of my booking. So here is an example where the theatre encrypts all the seats with its key, the person then selects one, and encrypts with their key, and sends them all back again. Then the theater decrypts the one that has changed, and sends it back for the person to decrypt, and we have a booking. The theatre thus does not know who has booked the seat: Commutative encryption using ChaCha20 ChaCha20 is a stream cipher, and where we created pseudo infinitely long encryption key, and the just XOR it with the plain text. With commutative encryption, we can decrypt with the keys in any order. Normally we would encrypt with Bob's key and then encrypt with Alice's key, and then we must decrypt with Alice's key and then Bob's. In commutative encryption, we can decrypt in any order. With a stream cipher, we can automatically apply commutative as we basically just EX-OR with the key stream. In the following we use Go code, and where Bob encrypts, Alice encrypts, Bob decrypts, and then Alice decrypts [here]. And a sample run [here]: Input text: HelloBob passphrase: qwertyAlice passphrase: 123456Input text: HelloBob keygen: 65e84be33532fb784c48129675f9eff3a682b27168c0ea744b2cf58ee02337c5Alice keygen: 8d969eef6ecad3c29a3a629280e686cf0c3f5d5a86aff3ca12020c923adc6c92Cipher after Bob encrypt: d9eef8ecdcCipher after Alice encrypt: 7a5dcd0f43Cipher after Bob decrypt: ebd6598ff0Cipher after Alice decrypt: 48656c6c6fDecrypted text: Hello We can easily extend the method to Carol, Trent, and so on. In my simple example I have used the same nonce for Bob and Alice, but in real life they would use different values, and these would be random for every transaction. Commutative encryption using SHAKE-128 NIST chose Keccak as the standard for SHA-3. But, it's all a bit confusing, as there are two main versions of this: Keccak and SHA-3. Many systems, such as Ethereum have adopted Keccak, while others go for SHA-3. The only real difference between them is a difference in the padding of data. An eXtendable-Output Function (XOF) produces a bit string that can be of any length. In fact, we can create an infinitely long bit string, if required. The main methods are SHAKE128, SHAKE256, BLAKE2XB and BLAKE2XS. With the SHA-3 hashing method, we have four different cryptographic hashing methods (SHA3–224, SHA3–256, SHA3–384, and SHA3–512) and two XOF functions (SHAKE128 and SHAKE256).  With commutative encryption, we can decrypt with the keys in any order. Normally we would encrypt with Bob's key and then encrypt with Alice's key, and then we must decrypt with Alice's key and then Bob's. In commutative encryption, we can decrypt in any order. While our symmetric key block ciphers cannot be made commutative, we can use stream ciphers, as they perform an EX-OR function. In this example we will use the SHAKE128 or SHAKE256, and generate Bob and Alice's key. https://asecuritysite.com/commul/comm_stream Communicative encryption using SRA With maths, operators such as multiplication are commutative, such as: 3 x 5 x 4 = 4 x 5 x 3 In encryption, most operations are non-commutative, so we need to modify the methods. One way is to use RSA, but generate two keys which have shared p, q and N values. So we generate Bob and Alice's keys using the same two prime numbers (p and q), so that they share the same N value (modulus). So let's start with Bob: Let's select: P=7, Q=13 The calculation of n and PHI is: N = 7 x 13 = 91 PHI = (P-1)(Q-1) = 72 We need to make sure that our encryption key (e) does not share any factors with PHI (gcd(PHI,e)=1). We can select e as: e = 5 Next we can calculate d from: (d x 5) mod (72) = 1 The answer is 29 [Solve] d= 29, e=5, N=91Encryption key [91,5]Decryption key [91,29] Now for Alice. We have: N = 7 x 13 = 91PHI = (P-1)(Q-1) = 72 We can select e as (and should not share any factors with PHI): e = 7 Now we must solve: (7 x d) mod (72) = 1 For this we get 31 [Solve] Alice's keys are then: d= 31, e=7, N=91Encryption key [91,7]Decryption key [91,31] An example of this is here: https://asecuritysite.com/commul/comm2 Commutative encryption using Massey-Omura  As we have seen, commutative encryption allows us to decrypt in any order. For this we can use Massey–Omura Cryptosystem and generate encryption keys which share a prime number. One classic patent for commutative encryption was written by James Massey and Jim K. Omura created the Massey–Omura Cryptosystem in 1982 [1]. It took over three years to be assigned and was assigned to Omnet Associates [here]: It uses exponentiation in the Galois field GF(2^n) for both the encryption and decryption functions. In this, if we have a message of M, the encryption is: and This are operated on with the Galois field. For this we define e within: and we make sure that e does not share a factor with 2^n-1 using: The decryption exponent d is defined as: This works because the multiplicative group of the Galois field GF(2^n) has order 2^n−1, and where Lagrange's theorem defines that m^{de}=m for all the values of m in GF(2^n). The coding is here [link]: import libnumimport randomimport sysfrom Crypto.Util.number import getPrimefrom Crypto.Random import get_random_bytesdef chunkstring(string, length): return (string[0+i:length+i] for i in range(0, len(string), length)) def generate_keys(prime): while True: e = random.randint(0, prime-2) if libnum.gcd(e, prime-1) == 1 and e > 2: break d = libnum.invmod(e, prime-1) return e,ddef crypt(chunk, key,prime ): num = 0 for c in chunk: num *= 256 num += ord(c) res = pow(num, key, prime) vect = [] for i in range(0, len(chunk)): vect.append(chr(res%256)) res = res // 256 return "".join(reversed(vect))primebits=64msg = "HellHe"if (len(sys.argv)>1): primebits=int(sys.argv[1])if (len(sys.argv)>2): msg=(sys.argv[2])FRAGMENT_SIZE = primebits//8msg = msg + " "*((FRAGMENT_SIZE - (len(msg)%FRAGMENT_SIZE))%FRAGMENT_SIZE)res=chunkstring(msg,FRAGMENT_SIZE)PRIME = getPrime(primebits, randfunc=get_random_bytes)e,d = generate_keys(PRIME)vect=[]for elem in res: enc=str(crypt(elem, e,PRIME)) vect.append(enc)enc="".join(vect)dec=[]for elem in chunkstring(enc, FRAGMENT_SIZE): dec.append(crypt(elem, d,PRIME))print (f"Msg={msg}")print (f"e={e}, d={d}")print("Decrypted: " + "".join(dec)) A sample run is [link]: Msg=Hello e=16153579288865179167, d=10300837874192230633Decrypted: Hello One of the advantages of the Massey–Omura Cryptosystem is that we can apply commutative encryption. In this way, Bob may have keys of (e_b,d_b) and Alice has keys of (e_a,d_a). We can then apply the keys in any order, such as encrypting with e_a and then encrypting with e_b, and where we can then decrypt with d_a and then decrypt with d_b, or decrypt with d_b first and then decrypt with d_a (as we would normally do). To encrypt: Cipher=E(a_b,E(e_a,M))=E(e_a,E(e_b,M)) To decrypt: E(d_b,E(d_a,Cipher))=E(d_a,E(d_b,Cipher)) Here is an example: https://asecuritysite.com/commul/massey2 Conclusions Communative encryption is a great way of applying multiple keys to encryption data, and then for them to be removed in any order that is required. It is a little like how data is encrypted in the Tor network, but that requires the keys to be removed in the reverse order they were applied. In a future podcast, I will explain how the Tor network works.

Christian conservatives, led by a cabal of wealthy, influential Republicans, have executed a long, drawn out coup that now gives them virtually ironclad control of the U.S. Supreme Court, which is supposed to be the final legal arbiter in our country that protects freedom for us all.Instead, according to Andrew L. Seidel, an author and attorney who's defended the First Amendment for more than a decade, conservative Christians, through the appointment of the six right-wing justices who now hold a super majority, have turned religious liberty on its head.In his new book, "American Crusade," Seidel details how conservative Christians have achieved that takeover, how it has affected numerous major decisions, and what can be expected in the future if left unchecked.Seidel exposes the “Crusaders,” powerful right-wing Christian conservatives who are systematically working to, as he writes, “elevate Christian beliefs above the law and exempt Christians from the law, while disfavoring non-religious and non-Christian citizens who are required to follow the law.”He issues a stark warning: “The First Amendment is being destroyed. In its place, Crusaders are forging a weapon to ensure their supremacy.”All of this is discussed in this interview for the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts, co-hosted by myself and author/attorney Mark M. Bello.Questions:MARK: I want to ask you a two part question that is top of mind in America right now. Part 1: Was Roe v Wade correctly decided? Part 2: Almost 50 years later, should it have been sustained on stare decisis grounds? MARK: Considering the outcome of Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health, do you think other social justice decisions are at risk? Gay rights, public schools, contraception, for instance? And why doesn't equal protection or due process apply to these situations?Bob: In your book, you leave no doubt about the danger of the current Conservative Supreme Court, citing case after case where decisions have been based on religious grounds rather than the law. Can you share just a few of those examples?Mark: I'm dubious that Ketanji Brown Jackson will have any impact at all. What's your take and is there anything in the short term that can curb this unchecked supermajority? Bob: Reports indicate that conservative justices appear ready to end race-conscious admission decisions at colleges and universities. Chief Justice Roberts also has temporarily halted release of Donald Trump's tax records to a congressional committee. Are these further examples of the influence of right-wing politics on the court?Bob: Part of the mandate of the 1st Amendment is the separation of church and state. Under the current court, is that in peril?Mark: I believe that Christian nationalism is alive and well in this country, and it is seeping into the court's decision-making. Andrew: Don't you see the court trending toward the religious right's agenda on a number of issues, especially LGBTQ issues, private school funding, and 1st Amendment Separation of Church and State cases like American Legion v. American Humanist Association? As to American Legion, as a Jewish guy and a constitutionalist, I find the argument that the cross has taken on “secular meaning” laughable. I agree with Justice Ginsburg, may she rest in peace, who said in her dissenting opinion: The cross is the foremost symbol of the Christian faith.” Using it as a war memorial doesn't change that fact. This was PUBLIC land. What's your view?Mark: And how about Lemon v Kurtzman? In an 8-1 decision, the high court decided that statutes that provide state funding for non-public, non-secular schools violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. How do you think the case would be decided today?Bob: Let's talk about Masterpiece Cake Shop where the shop refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple on religious grounds, or the Obergefell v Hodges case that permitted same-sex marriage. These were decided differently, obviously. Would today's court decide Masterpiece the same way and overturn Obergefell? You discuss them in detail in your book. Mark: In Tandon v Newsom, the current conservative majority even prioritized the religious right over common sense COVID safety measures. What's your view of that decision?Mark: Can we talk about the Constitution, itself, for a moment? For instance, what's your take on the evolution of the 2nd Amendment? How do we go from “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” to you can own military assault rifles?Mark: And a broader question. I presume you would agree with me that the Constitution was a legal document, a framework for our federal, state, and local laws. It was not meant as a political document, correct? But, it has certainly become one. What do you make of people who I call constitutional hypocrites, who selectively enforce certain constitutional provision, but ignore others. In my view, the pollicization of the court is an example of this-do you agree? I don't think the framers foresaw these political battles, do you?Bob: How can we as citizens protect ourselves from the next Dobbs? Only next time it will be a case that brings down marriage equality, access to contraceptives, or changes how we fund schools. How do we stop the madness?Mark: Last question: You've been invited to lecture at a bar association meeting welcoming new lawyers into the profession. What do you tell these fresh young kids about constitutional freedoms, the 1st Amendment, and the separation of church and state? Forget what you learned in law school?Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lean-to-the-left-podcast--4719048/support.

Christian conservatives, led by a cabal of wealthy, influential Republicans, have executed a long, drawn out coup that now gives them virtually ironclad control of the U.S. Supreme Court, which is supposed to be the final legal arbiter in our country that protects freedom for us all.Instead, according to Andrew L. Seidel, an author and attorney who's defended the First Amendment for more than a decade, conservative Christians, through the appointment of the six right-wing justices who now hold a super majority, have turned religious liberty on its head.In his new book, "American Crusade," Seidel details how conservative Christians have achieved that takeover, how it has affected numerous major decisions, and what can be expected in the future if left unchecked.Seidel exposes the “Crusaders,” powerful right-wing Christian conservatives who are systematically working to, as he writes, “elevate Christian beliefs above the law and exempt Christians from the law, while disfavoring non-religious and non-Christian citizens who are required to follow the law.”He issues a stark warning: “The First Amendment is being destroyed. In its place, Crusaders are forging a weapon to ensure their supremacy.”All of this is discussed in this interview for the Lean to the Left and Justice Counts podcasts, co-hosted by myself and author/attorney Mark M. Bello.Questions:MARK: I want to ask you a two part question that is top of mind in America right now. Part 1: Was Roe v Wade correctly decided? Part 2: Almost 50 years later, should it have been sustained on stare decisis grounds? MARK: Considering the outcome of Dobbs v Jackson Women's Health, do you think other social justice decisions are at risk? Gay rights, public schools, contraception, for instance? And why doesn't equal protection or due process apply to these situations?Bob: In your book, you leave no doubt about the danger of the current Conservative Supreme Court, citing case after case where decisions have been based on religious grounds rather than the law. Can you share just a few of those examples?Mark: I'm dubious that Ketanji Brown Jackson will have any impact at all. What's your take and is there anything in the short term that can curb this unchecked supermajority? Bob: Reports indicate that conservative justices appear ready to end race-conscious admission decisions at colleges and universities. Chief Justice Roberts also has temporarily halted release of Donald Trump's tax records to a congressional committee. Are these further examples of the influence of right-wing politics on the court?Bob: Part of the mandate of the 1st Amendment is the separation of church and state. Under the current court, is that in peril?Mark: I believe that Christian nationalism is alive and well in this country, and it is seeping into the court's decision-making. Andrew: Don't you see the court trending toward the religious right's agenda on a number of issues, especially LGBTQ issues, private school funding, and 1st Amendment Separation of Church and State cases like American Legion v. American Humanist Association? As to American Legion, as a Jewish guy and a constitutionalist, I find the argument that the cross has taken on “secular meaning” laughable. I agree with Justice Ginsburg, may she rest in peace, who said in her dissenting opinion: The cross is the foremost symbol of the Christian faith.” Using it as a war memorial doesn't change that fact. This was PUBLIC land. What's your view?Mark: And how about Lemon v Kurtzman? In an 8-1 decision, the high court decided that statutes that provide state funding for non-public, non-secular schools violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. How do you think the case would be decided today?Bob: Let's talk about Masterpiece Cake Shop where the shop refused to make a wedding cake for a same-sex couple on religious grounds, or the Obergefell v Hodges case that permitted same-sex marriage. These were decided differently, obviously. Would today's court decide Masterpiece the same way and overturn Obergefell? You discuss them in detail in your book. Mark: In Tandon v Newsom, the current conservative majority even prioritized the religious right over common sense COVID safety measures. What's your view of that decision?Mark: Can we talk about the Constitution, itself, for a moment? For instance, what's your take on the evolution of the 2nd Amendment? How do we go from “A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed” to you can own military assault rifles?Mark: And a broader question. I presume you would agree with me that the Constitution was a legal document, a framework for our federal, state, and local laws. It was not meant as a political document, correct? But, it has certainly become one. What do you make of people who I call constitutional hypocrites, who selectively enforce certain constitutional provision, but ignore others. In my view, the pollicization of the court is an example of this-do you agree? I don't think the framers foresaw these political battles, do you?Bob: How can we as citizens protect ourselves from the next Dobbs? Only next time it will be a case that brings down marriage equality, access to contraceptives, or changes how we fund schools. How do we stop the madness?Mark: Last question: You've been invited to lecture at a bar association meeting welcoming new lawyers into the profession. What do you tell these fresh young kids about constitutional freedoms, the 1st Amendment, and the separation of church and state? Forget what you learned in law school?

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Conversation with Eliezer: What do you want the system to do?, published by Akash on June 25, 2022 on LessWrong. This is a write-up of a conversation I overheard between Eliezer and some junior alignment researchers. Eliezer reviewed this and gave me permission to post this, but he mentioned that "there's a lot of stuff that didn't get captured well or accurately." I'm posting it under the belief that it's better than nothing. TLDR: People often work on alignment proposals without having a clear idea of what they actually want an aligned system to do. Eliezer thinks this is bad. He claims that people should start with the target (what do you want the system to do?) before getting into the mechanics (how are you going to get the system to do this?) I recently listened in on a conversation between Eliezer and a few junior alignment researchers (let's collectively refer to them as Bob). This is a paraphrased/editorialized version of that conversation. Bob: Let's suppose we had a perfect solution to outer alignment. I have this idea for how we could solve inner alignment! First, we could get a human-level oracle AI. Then, we could get the oracle AI to build a human-level agent through hardcoded optimization. And then-- Eliezer: What do you want the system to do? Bob: Oh, well, I want it to avoid becoming a mesa-optimizer. And you see, the way we do this, assuming we have a perfect solution to outer alignment is-- Eliezer: No. What do you want the system to do? Don't tell me about the mechanics of the system. Don't tell me about how you're going to train it. Tell me about what you want it to do. Bob: What. what I want it to do. Well, uh, I want it to not kill us and I want it to be aligned with our values. Eliezer: Aligned with our values? What does that mean? What will you actually have this system do to make sure we don't die? Does it have to do with GPUs? Does it have to do with politics? Tell me what, specifically, you want the system to do. Bob: Well wait, what if we just had the system find out what to do on its own? Eliezer: Oh okay, so we're going to train a superintelligent system and give it complete freedom over what it's supposed to do, and then we're going to hope it doesn't kill us? Bob: Well, um.. Eliezer: You're not the only one who has trouble with this question. A lot of people find it easier to think about the mechanics of these systems. Oh, if we just tweak the system in these ways-- look! We've made progress! It's much harder to ask yourself, seriously, what are you actually trying to get the system to do? This is hard because we don't have good answers. This is hard because a lot of the answers make us uncomfortable. This is hard because we have to confront the fact that we don't currently have a solution. This happens with start-ups as well. You'll talk to a start-up founder and they'll be extremely excited about their database, or their engine, or their code. And then you'll say “cool, but who's your customer?” And they'll stare back at you, stunned. And then they'll say “no, I don't think you get it! Look at this-- we have this state-of-the-art technique! Look at what it can do!” And then I ask again, “yes, great, but who is your customer?” With AI safety proposals, I first want to know who your customer is. What is it that you actually want your system to be able to do in the real-world? After you have specified your target, you can tell me about the mechanics, the training procedures, and the state-of-the-art techniques. But first, we need a target worth aiming for. Questions that a curious reader might have, which are not covered in this post: Why does Eliezer believe this? Is it never useful to have a better understanding of the mechanics, even if we don't have a clear target in mind? Do the mechanics of the system always depend on its target?...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Conversation with Eliezer: What do you want the system to do?, published by Akash on June 25, 2022 on LessWrong. This is a write-up of a conversation I overheard between Eliezer and some junior alignment researchers. Eliezer reviewed this and gave me permission to post this, but he mentioned that "there's a lot of stuff that didn't get captured well or accurately." I'm posting it under the belief that it's better than nothing. TLDR: People often work on alignment proposals without having a clear idea of what they actually want an aligned system to do. Eliezer thinks this is bad. He claims that people should start with the target (what do you want the system to do?) before getting into the mechanics (how are you going to get the system to do this?) I recently listened in on a conversation between Eliezer and a few junior alignment researchers (let's collectively refer to them as Bob). This is a paraphrased/editorialized version of that conversation. Bob: Let's suppose we had a perfect solution to outer alignment. I have this idea for how we could solve inner alignment! First, we could get a human-level oracle AI. Then, we could get the oracle AI to build a human-level agent through hardcoded optimization. And then-- Eliezer: What do you want the system to do? Bob: Oh, well, I want it to avoid becoming a mesa-optimizer. And you see, the way we do this, assuming we have a perfect solution to outer alignment is-- Eliezer: No. What do you want the system to do? Don't tell me about the mechanics of the system. Don't tell me about how you're going to train it. Tell me about what you want it to do. Bob: What. what I want it to do. Well, uh, I want it to not kill us and I want it to be aligned with our values. Eliezer: Aligned with our values? What does that mean? What will you actually have this system do to make sure we don't die? Does it have to do with GPUs? Does it have to do with politics? Tell me what, specifically, you want the system to do. Bob: Well wait, what if we just had the system find out what to do on its own? Eliezer: Oh okay, so we're going to train a superintelligent system and give it complete freedom over what it's supposed to do, and then we're going to hope it doesn't kill us? Bob: Well, um.. Eliezer: You're not the only one who has trouble with this question. A lot of people find it easier to think about the mechanics of these systems. Oh, if we just tweak the system in these ways-- look! We've made progress! It's much harder to ask yourself, seriously, what are you actually trying to get the system to do? This is hard because we don't have good answers. This is hard because a lot of the answers make us uncomfortable. This is hard because we have to confront the fact that we don't currently have a solution. This happens with start-ups as well. You'll talk to a start-up founder and they'll be extremely excited about their database, or their engine, or their code. And then you'll say “cool, but who's your customer?” And they'll stare back at you, stunned. And then they'll say “no, I don't think you get it! Look at this-- we have this state-of-the-art technique! Look at what it can do!” And then I ask again, “yes, great, but who is your customer?” With AI safety proposals, I first want to know who your customer is. What is it that you actually want your system to be able to do in the real-world? After you have specified your target, you can tell me about the mechanics, the training procedures, and the state-of-the-art techniques. But first, we need a target worth aiming for. Questions that a curious reader might have, which are not covered in this post: Why does Eliezer believe this? Is it never useful to have a better understanding of the mechanics, even if we don't have a clear target in mind? Do the mechanics of the system always depend on its target?...

SUMMARY: In this week's episode, Wade visits comedian Bob Marley on his home turf in Maine to talk about old tricks and new ones too. The veteran entertainer, who has 30 years in standup and a Guinness World Record for longest continuous set, shares with Wade how moving from Los Angeles back to his home state was in large part spurred by water (and snow) skiing – and how those sports have been central to his family's life.  Together with his kids and some of their friends, Bob peppers Wade with questions about everything from what makes water skiing so compelling to the finer points of line length and the importance of taking advice – but only from sources that know their stuff! Join Wade and Bob as they sit lakeside at the Dinner Shack in Poland, Maine, musing about their favorite sport, raising kids and keeping the comedy going in life. And of course Wade does a round of “Five Question” with the gang following on a three-day waterskiing clinic at Tripp Lake.   TOPICS COVERED:·      A little about Bob's resume, his life in comedy, and decided to move back to his native Maine.·      The early roots of what would eventually become Bob's (and his kids') obsession with waterskiing. ·      Touching on some of Bob's favorite camp experiences in California, Nevada, and Florida.·      A round of “Five Questions” for Wade, touching on how to develop technique, adapt to various race conditions, and ways Wade has gotten and stayed inspired.·      Brief wrap-up and a word about what's available at the Ski With Wade website. QUOTES:“One of the reasons we came back was to snow ski – 60 or 70 days a year – and water ski as much as we can – from April all the way through to November.” (Bob) “Let's get our balance and technique really good, and then I'll speed ‘em up and shorten ‘em up.” (Wade) “Ultimately we're trying to create space – same as in any other sport. We need a little space from our defender, whoever is trying to whack us or tackle us.” (Wade) “If you see the space out on the water and you've got it, then you've got the visual gratification: ‘Hey, this looks good.' ” (Wade) “All this failure rate does is guarantee the fact that you're going to fail. We need success.” (Wade) “Ultimately it's the balance point, meaning rooster tail, and if you are either scared of you're getting bounced of your direction, man, we've got no hope.”  (Wade) “If you're going to go to a ski school and get instruction, the biggest thing I've learned is, ‘Why would you not listen to the guy who is a champion?' ” (Bob) “It can go either way with your nerves but if you handle it the right way you can get the energy that you know you don't have in practice. Those butterflies give you superpowers.” (Wade) “A lot of people like to hear themselves talk or give advice. A lot of it isn't very good. You've got to learn to sort through that.” (Wade) “Maybe I'm still always searching for that perfect lake – what's going to be my next lake if you will.” (Wade) 

Defining effective altruism ... Rob explains the meaning of ‘80,000 Hours’ ... Should young people dedicate their careers to fighting climate change? ... The Apocalypse Aversion Project ... How cognitive biases fuel tribalism ... Bob: We need a psychological revolution ... Are external threats the best way to bring people together? ... The balance between surveillance and public safety ... Bob: Let's retire the word 'apologist' ... Making rationality cool ... Rob challenges Bob to find flaws in "The Moral Animal" ...

Defining effective altruism ... Rob explains the meaning of ‘80,000 Hours' ... Should young people dedicate their careers to fighting climate change? ... The Apocalypse Aversion Project ... How cognitive biases fuel tribalism ... Bob: We need a psychological revolution ... Are external threats the best way to bring people together? ... The balance between surveillance and public safety ... Bob: Let's retire the word 'apologist' ... Making rationality cool ... Rob challenges Bob to find flaws in "The Moral Animal" ...

Defining effective altruism ... Rob explains the meaning of ‘80,000 Hours’ ... Should young people dedicate their careers to fighting climate change? ... The Apocalypse Aversion Project ... How cognitive biases fuel tribalism ... Bob: We need a psychological revolution ... Are external threats the best way to bring people together? ... The balance between surveillance and public safety ... Bob: Let's retire the word 'apologist' ... Making rationality cool ... Rob challenges Bob to find flaws in "The Moral Animal" ...

Summary: Are you worried about how you’re going to make payroll? Are your prospects not buying? Are you afraid current clients will put things on hold? Are you unsure how to keep SELLING? We have the same questions. While these questions are real, the key is to LEAD well through the turmoil and find the opportunity in it. Doing that will separate you from the rest. When everyone is running around in chaos, it may feel counterintuitive to be calm, but that is where the opportunity lies.    Resources Mentioned:  Small Business Administration Disaster Relief Program: https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/disaster-assistance How to make healthy decisions no matter what the circumstance   Top 3 Curtain Pulls in this episode: It is so easy to get swept up in the panic and fear during this time,  but that makes it nearly impossible to make effective decisions. Put your oxygen mask on first, then worry about taking care of everyone around you.  Health is wealth! And not just physical health. Mental, spiritual too. Create a schedule for yourself that feeds every aspect of your health and stick to it. Get outside! Move your body! Breathe! There is opportunity. Don’t be afraid to take a fresh approach to your own brand’s content creation- there is more desire for online education than ever before!    About The Guys:  Bob Hutchins: Founder of BuzzPlant, a digital agency that he ran from from 2000 -2017. He is also the author of 3 books. More on Bob:  Bob on LinkedIn twitter.com/BobHutchins instagram.com/bwhutchins Bob on Facebook Brad Ayres: Founder of Anthem Republic, an award-winning ad agency. Brad’s knowledge has led some of the biggest brands in the world. Originally from Detroit, Brad is an OG in the ad agency world and has the wisdom and scars to prove it. Currently that knowledge is being applied to his boutique agency. More on Brad: Brad on LinkedIn Anthem Republic twitter.com/bradayres instagram.com/therealbradayres facebook.com/Bradayres Ken Ott: Co-Founder and Chief Growth Rebel of Metacake, an Ecommerce Growth Team for some of the world’s most influential brands with a mission to Grow Brands That Matter. Ken is also an author, speaker, and was nominated for an Emmy for his acting on the Metacake Youtube Channel (not really). More on Ken:  Ken on LinkedIn Metacake - An Ecommerce Growth Team Growth Rebel TV twitter.com/iamKenOtt instagram.com/iamKenOtt facebook.com/iamKenOtt   Show Notes: [0:35] Bob welcomes us and speaks on the purpose of this episode. “We want to chat and do what we normally do on the podcast and talk about some things that we’re all dealing with as a business owner, former business owner, current, whatever you’re dealing with… Speak about how current business owners are responding to the current crisis.  [1:10] Ken: This is a quickly changing landscape for businesses… we wanted to discuss what we’re all seeing… and how can we navigate this, not make rash decisions and actually, find the opportunity in all of it, which I think is the key.” [2:00] Brad discusses being reactive versus proactive and being ready to make that switch in the midst of the chaos that’s happening in the world. “What do we do now? How do we prepare for the future? What can we do currently to prepare for Q3, Q4?” Hardships during this time are inevitable, so growth is inevitable. But that growth takes intentionality, and that can be elusive during chaos.  “We don’t have all the answers but we’d love to discuss it and see if there’s some things that can be helpful.” [3:02] Bob: “Let’s start with square 1- mindset. There’s this idea of everyone, specifically our clients, wanting to pull back. Wanting to like put everything on hold. And I think that can carry through to our mindset as well.” There can be a desire to pull back, but it’s important to ask yourself how you can live in this reality but also expand and become more creative.  [3:57] Ken adds that a lot of businesses are being directly impacted, and they have to react quickly and take massive action. The ripple effects of that impact all of us and our clients feel that as well.  “No matter what you think about the situation and why we got here, we’re here. And no one wants to be here, but you can either choose to accept that and the reality of it and then figure out… how are we going to find the opportunity- or you can retract. And I think that in this scenario, you need to stay in the mindset of expansion.” The mindset of hysteria is prevalent, and giving in to the different levels of that flying around is a recipe for disaster. It starts with a mindset of health. [6:47] Brad asks Ken: “How are you personally keeping a mindset that is positive? Instead of thinking about the worst, preparing for the future in a positive way.” [7:00] Ken speaks about how important it is to control what you’re allowing to clutter your mind. He limits news intake to a need-to-know basis. “Knowing that 10,000 people have it doesn’t help my decision making process, which just creates anxiety and clutters my mind… I’m choosing to say hey I’m going to be creative in this, I’m going to figure this out, even if not until we’re on the other side of it.” [8:50] Bob reflects on the instructions that are given by flight attendants on an airplane- that in the case of emergency, put on your mask first before those around you, as you cannot assist others if you are not properly prepared. “So, one of the first things that we should really talk about before the practical stuff is the most important thing, which is making sure you’re taking care of yourself and making it a priority every day… everybody is struggling right now mentally with this thing on certain levels… some people have to turn off the news altogether because they know that they get depressed, others feel like they’re trapped inside and have to get out, others feel like their business is going to fail because all their clients are going to withhold and shut down. “ It’s vitally important to get outside if you can, breathe deeply, meditate, pray, stretch, exercise. Otherwise everyone around you will suffer even more because you’re not taking care of yourself.  [10:31] Bob: “I think that’s square one for business owners and solo-preneurs and whoever may be listening- just make sure you have some sort of routine and put your mask on first every day.”  [10:57] Ken speaks to the lack of routine that can happen when you’re working from home. It’s easy to never get out of your pajamas, to work for 15 hours a day, to never go outside. This is why during this time more than ever it is vitally important that you’re taking care of those things. When so much of our day to day routine is gone, it’s easy to lose that for ourselves.  [11:47] Brad adds: “You hear people say they either work really well at home or they don’t… half the country is probably struggling working from home while the other half is getting a lot done.” Really it comes down to how you can protect yourself. If you’re looking to protect your business, you have to protect yourself as well. [12:51] Brad continues: “You have to have a strong plan, right? It’s good to know the what if’s- not from a place of fear but based out of a clear idea of what you need to do. So if you do get to the point where next month, you’re not able to make payroll, are you going to let people off or are you going to take a personal financial hit yourself and try to take that on…” Asking yourself what you’re going to realistically do means you really have to whittle away at why you’re in business in the first place. “Is it just for money or is it for a greater purpose than that? I think this can give us more purpose as business owners and understand exactly what our role is in society.”  [15:42] Ken: Having a better understanding of your “Why” through this can allow you to market better and grow through this as a business as well.  “I think you have to have a plan on the expense side… I do think you should look at your expenses and it’s the time to trim down.” This lends itself to the concept of survival of the fittest- you have to figure out what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are.  Aside from trimming down on your expenses, it’s worthwhile to reflect on what the growth plan is through this time.  [17:00] Ken: “We even grappled a bit with the idea of explicity selling your products right now… you have to do it. You can’t be opportunistic or anything like that, but there’s a right way to do it. Ultimately, the way the economy works is by money exchanging hands and people selling and people buying.”  It’s important to continue to sell, in the right ways. Having a mindset of helping and being generous is coming from a place of authenticity. [18:01] Brad talks about a commercial he saw recently. Cadillac has expanded interest-free financing, they’re delivering a new vehicle to you directly. They’re marketing “We’re all in this together” and that is a message that is positive and impactful during this time.  [19:41] Brad: “I think for all of us in our businesses, how do we provide win-wins for our customers?” It’s important to take the time to put on your mask and figure out how to keep your business afloat, create a plan and decide how you're going to take care of those things. “But now it’s time to say, how can we help our customers get through this? And maybe there’s something that we can do to take advantage of this time that can actually offer people value.” [20:29] Ken adds that aside from explicity selling something of value by reducing the prices of all of their educational products, Metacake is also offering free coaching sessions. That’s not so much part of lead generation as just sharing their strengths. [22:30] Ken continues to share the ways that Metacake is changing their mindset around the situation. “It’s important that you keep selling, that you keep doing this stuff and you don’t just slow down because of other people, because there’s chaos going on around you. That’s the way I believe we’re going to get through on the business side, by continuing to move the market forward despite the pain and chaos.” [22:52] Bob: “Since all three of us have experience on the Digital Marketing side, let’s talk a little big about some, many of our clients are using paid media, online ads, whether it be Google or YouTube or Facebook or Instagram… there’s probably a pull to hold back on advertising… but more people are online now than ever before. And so there’s a HUGE opportunity- for those who do the majority of their work online- to actually focus on the current customer LTV, etc. How have you guys been approaching that?” [24:15] Brad speaks to his experience so far. “We are talking to our clients about it and trying to have a short term and a long term goal with our media spend and whether or not we will need to continue marketing a product that they currently can’t sell.” If your product is helpful to those in the ecommerce business, you may want to actually increase your spend. But if this isn’t the case, you need to take the time to move that budget and allocate more for things that will be more impactful.  [25:36] Ken asks if Brad has experienced clients pulling back on their spending.  [25:41] Brad speaks to certain types of clients. Some are projects where Brad’s company is marketing events around the world that have now been cancelled. “This is where our diversity of clients is helpful for us.” Brad’s concern in Q3 and Q4, what businesses will look like three months from now.  [27:28] Bob: “We’ve had a question come through, Kyle says ‘Now seems like a good time strategically to up our marketing as a content production firm, however we’re also worried about keeping cash in the bank.” [27:42] Ken responds that financial stability is the most important thing, as Metacake does a lot of content and that financial stability is important. “We’re investing into creating content and in general we’re seeing consumption of that content going up, and we’re seeing ad costs go down.” “We’re scaling our advertising up because costs are down, and in general we see this as probably the best opportunity to generate leads or future leads- to gain market share and brand equity.” “The conversion rate on some of our free pieces of content are up to 100%, that’s super interesting. People are taking action- people may be scared or uncertain, but if you can give them certainty in some way, they’re going to take action.” [30:31] Bob adds that tweaking the messaging slightly, not to be opportunistic, but to be genuine and authentic in response to people’s concerns.  In many instances, there is opportunity for training and education that there wasn’t previously time for in the past- now there is time. And so if you have that product to marketing to truly provide options for people and help guide them through this, then that’s a good thing and people will take advantage of it. [31:39] Ken: “Another idea is recycling things that you’re good at that you don’t typically sell.” He has gotten a lot of questions about how Metacake works from home and the processes/systems in place that makes that easier.” [33:00] Brad asks a question from the live feed: “How much money do you think an agency needs to have to get through this as a company? Where do you find sources to make sure you have cash flow on your balance sheet?”  These are strong questions as you formulate a plan of action for yourself and your business. He suggests always having a line of credit, looking into the Small Business Administration’s Disaster Relief program There is talk of payroll taxes being suspended temporarily as well.  [36:13] Ken adds: “If you’re not doing electronic payments, or if your accounts receivable is really big and delayed, this might be a lesson that after all this you should be switching to electronic payments.” [37:40] Brad reflects on the fragility of many businesses in America. “60% of American live paycheck to paycheck, and so if you’re one paycheck removed, you’re in a world of hurt.”  As businesses we should be more aware of that and wiser than that.  Even for our business, even just one month can make a big impact.  “You should have at least a year out in the bank, just for security.” [44:00] Ken speaks on a “new normal”. Amidst all of the anxiety in our world right now, customers aren’t making purchases as frequently and quickly, but ads are doing a lot better.  “Whether we’re at home for who knows how long, things will normalize, people will get into a state of new normal, and that will start to flow again… some of our customers have put things on pause, but there is going to be a new normal that people settle into.” [45:37] Brad adds that he has clients who have slowed down, but eventually there will be a new normal… right now it feels like week by week. “Even my sentiments last week are different than this week. This Monday I suddenly got a charge, a new energy. I’m more in a rhythm now, more of a new normal.” Historically humans have bounced back from hardships like this with an excitement to get back to work, with a can-do attitude. [50:24] Ken adds: “As a business owner, it’s our job to continue to help them [clients] make the right decision- which is moving forward, in the right way… if you believe in what you do, and you believe in the results that you can create, that will help you be in a position to make the right decision.” [51:45] Bob suggests reaching out clients that you know are struggling and offering to get on the phone and talk through some ideas and let them air their thoughts. “I think this is where as agency owners and creatives, we can really shine.” [52:52] Brad speaks on the importance of being heard during this time. Some of your clients may not have support at their company, you may be working with a marketing manager who has no access to financial information on their end, who has no support from their higher-ups. This is a time for us to say “hey let’s be a part of your solution, let us help you become a part of the solution for your business as well.”  [55:00] Bob: “I think this is a great time to be investing in giving back to your customers through content, especially helpful content.” 

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Building up Your Man Guest:                        Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: See if you can spot where the challenge is here: You're a wife and a mom who wants things to go right. Marriage and family is messy, and your husband isn't perfect. You see how that can be a problem? Here's Barbara Rainey. Barbara: One of the things that is true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us because of our emotional makeup to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman, who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point where she just doesn't see clearly.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, April 27th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. What do you do, as a wife, when you get overwhelmed / discouraged by all that's going on? How do you deal with that? We're going to talk about it today with Barbara Rainey. Stay tuned.  1:00 And welcome to FamilyLife. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition. We're diving back into a rich field of ore today. I mean, there is some good stuff that we're going to be digging into. Dennis: We have some pretty fair guests on FamilyLife Today from time to time. Bob: We do; yes. Dennis: Max Lucado, Tony Evans, Crawford Loritts, Mary Kassian, Nancy Leigh DeMoss Wolgemuth—a lot of, really, pretty fair country guests. Bob: Pretty good communicators with some pretty good biblical knowledge. Dennis: Yes; this one is a cut above. Bob: Somebody who is— Dennis: —just a cut above. Bob: —kind of your favorite? Dennis: Definitely my favorite—my bride of 43 years.  2:00 Sweetheart, welcome back. Barbara: I don't know if I can live up to all of that. Dennis: That's pretty strong; wasn't it? Barbara: Very strong. Dennis: Well, our listeners love you. We were with some friends here this past weekend and ran into a number of listeners. They came up and talked to Barbara about her books and Ever Thine Home®—all the resources she's creating for wives, and moms, and women to be able to display their faith in their homes. It was kind of fun to watch them come out of the woodwork—out of a large gathering of people—come by and say, “Hi,” to Barbara and say, “I appreciate you.” Bob: Well, and a lot of buzz around your new book, which has just been out now for a few months. It's called Letters to My Daughters. This really didn't start as a book; did it? Barbara: It absolutely didn't. When our oldest son was engaged to be married, his fiancée came to me and said, “You know, I would really love to hear some encouragement from you about being a wife.” And I thought, “Wow!” Bob: She just opened the door; didn't she? 3:00 Barbara: I know. And I thought: “Wow. She opened the door. Then I'm going to gently and cautiously walk through that door.” And so I wasn't sure exactly how to go about doing it because we all lived in different places. It wasn't possible to take her out for coffee and have a conversation. So I decided I would start writing some letters—just to share some of the lessons that I had learned over the years in being a wife / just by way of encouragement and, “Here are some things that I learned, and maybe this will help you.”  Bob: Did you write them one-on-one to her or did you copy everybody else when you started? Barbara: I copied all three married girls. So our oldest, Ashley, who was already married, and then our son, Samuel, had married the same summer. So it went to three married girls. Bob: Then you expanded it out as this snowballed and continued? Barbara: We traded about—I sent—I'll rephrase that—I sent about a dozen emails total. I don't know how much of it was that they didn't know me that well—so there wasn't a lot of response—  4:00 —which I understood—I mean, you know—we're talking about subjects about marriage and this is your mother-in-law. What do you say? Bob: Yes. Barbara: So I didn't get much feedback—so they kind of dried up. Then, when our daughter Rebecca got married in 2005, I went and dug them all up and sent them to her kind of as a batch / a couple of them at a time. And that really was the end of it after that—the email version. Dennis: I think what's interesting about this is the whole idea came from a couple of sources. One was a book that was famous and very popular, back when Barbara and I were college students, by Charlie Shed. It's called Letters to Karen. It wasn't Letters to My Daughter, it was—although, was Karen his daughter? Barbara: Karen was his daughter. Bob: Because I also got Letters to Phillip, which was the follow-up, which he'd written letters to his son—both of them around marriage subjects, right? Dennis: Exactly; exactly.  5:00 But there was another kind of—I don't know—birthplace of this idea of sending letters that was a part of Barbara's family. Barbara: When I was growing up, I remember my mother used to anxiously look for this large legal-size envelope that would come in the mail probably every couple of months. She had married my dad and they had moved two or three states away from where she grew up. It was a place where she knew no one. Although she developed friends, there were no family members anywhere near. She, and her mother, and some other relatives in the family, and friends had this exchange of letters, that were all handwritten, that went by the postal service. It was called a round robin.  My mother would write her letter, put it in the envelope, and send it on its way, where the next person would read my mother's letter and all of the other letters that were in it. She would take out her original letter, and put in a new letter, and send the packet on its way.  6:00 It would just make this circle between these six or eight women that were a part of this group because nobody got on the phone and talked for fun in those days. You only used the phone for emergencies, or business, or important things. You didn't just get on it to chat. Letter writing was the only way that you really kept up with people who lived far away. They had this letter exchange that they passed around.  I just remember, very vividly, that every time that letter came / that packet—with all those messages from home / touches with her family and friends that she didn't get to see very often—she would get a cup of coffee and sit down. She relished those letters—she read them and absorbed all that she could out of those communications from friends that she loved, and cared about, and missed deeply. That became a way for her to stay in touch with those friends. Dennis: You know, it's interesting, Bob—now, in the present age of social media and having communication so— 7:00 Bob: —tweets, and texts, and emails. Dennis: —it's so easy, you know. We have access to so much that the art of letter writing—I mean, a really good thoughtful letter—in fact, I have back on my desk a letter that was given to me by Steve Green, who is the President and CEO of Hobby Lobby, that he'd obtained that was written by Thomas Jefferson, during his presidency. It's just interesting to have a copy of a letter that's over 200 years old and to think about the words being crafted—how thoughtful it was. I think there's a need to recapture that—both personal side but also just the thoughtful side / the contemplative side of: “You're facing some issues, let me step into your life and provide some guidance in a personal way for you.” Bob: Not just shoot from the hip, but give some real thought to the response. Some of the letters—because you will print a letter in here—we should say this is not an actual letter from one of your daughters. People shouldn't read this and try to figure out which daughter was asking this question. 8:00 Barbara: Correct. Bob: You would take a composite of questions that were being asked of you—subjects that your daughters were asking you about. Dennis: —and people who were coming up to Barbara at a Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway.  Bob: Right. Dennis: We have tens of thousands of people, who come to those events. When Barbara speaks, women stand in line to talk to her. These questions that are in the book are really questions that these women had asked Barbara from the Weekend to Remember. Bob: I'm looking at one of the letters that you respond to in your book. You're tackling some pretty interesting stuff here. I mean, one of these letters asks this question—it says: “Hey, Mom, sometimes I get tired of being discouraged by all the unexpected things that I have to deal with that come from the way my husband lives life. It's not just that we're different—you already wrote me about—that it's more than that. It's like I think, ‘If I didn't have him, sometimes life would be easier.'”  9:00 Now wait a sec! Do wives really feel that way? [Laughter] I mean, I'm starting to feel a little insecure here! Does a wife really feel like sometimes life would be easier— Dennis: Let me just stop you. What if your wife's name is on the book—[Laughter] Bob: You can feel real insecure now! [Laughter] Dennis: —and you're on the radio! Bob: Let me finish this—it says, “It's kind of nice when he's out of town for a few days.” This is a wife, who is saying, “Sometimes, I wonder if I'd be happier, more satisfied, more fulfilled if I didn't have a husband to deal with.” Barbara: Well, I think there are those moments when women do feel that way because the differences never go away—that's the first chapter in the book. I write in the book that it's the first and most lasting adjustment to marriage because the differences never go away. Even though I'm used to things that he brings to our world—his personality, the way he approaches life, and his maleness— 10:00 Bob: His perspective is different. Barbara: —it's very different. I think what this question is saying is—that, sometimes, when a husband travels, there feels a little bit of a: “Oh I can do things the way I want to do things. I don't have to be just thinking about what I would like to do and ‘How's this going to make him feel? How he's going to respond to this?' I can just do what I want to do.”  Bob: You know, I get that because I think, for husbands—I think there's a similar— Barbara: I would expect so! Bob: —to have a break and just to be able to—times when I'm traveling, I'm focused on whatever I'm doing, traveling-wise, and— Barbara: Or if your wife goes on a women's retreat, you can just kind of veg and eat pizza all day long and not worry about anything; right? Bob: Sometimes, those breaks are nice to have; but you wouldn't want them to go on for very long. Barbara: No; no. Bob: In the midst of them, you do have a sense of something lacking, even if you're enjoying just the pause in the relationship; right? Barbara: Right. Without question because we are complete in one another, and marriage does complete that which is lacking.  11:00 I mean, God says, “The two shall become one.” There is a sense in which you can relax about some things when your husband or your wife is out of town, but there is that realization that life isn't the same without him in it. So it makes you miss one another and appreciate those differences / those things that the other person brings that are so very contradictory at times. But it is for good. Bob: When should a wife start to be concerned if she's thinking, “I kind of wish he'd go away for a few days because I really like it when he's gone.” When can she tell: “This is an okay break,” versus “No, this is us drifting toward isolation in our marriage”? Dennis: —or “This is unhealthy thinking.” Here's what we're talking about—we're talking about the very essence of marriage goes back to Genesis, where it says it was not good that man be alone.  12:00 So it says, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother; shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one.” I think we get married because there's something lacking in our lives and that something is a person. It's the completeness of a husband and a wife in a marriage relationship designed by God.  The two are asked to deny themselves, and to defeat isolation, and not grow into an unhealthy relationship where you long for the times when you're going to be separated. You need to keep the relationship alive and not forget why you married the other person in the first place. God brought you together—you need to get on with it, and you need to learn how to embrace the differences. Barbara: It's okay to have a break occasionally; but the goal of marriage is being together, and becoming one, and allowing God to do his redemptive work in our lives. Dennis: Ultimately, what marriage is all about is—about two imperfect people learning how to love one another within the commitment of marriage.  13:00 Barbara: Yes. Dennis: You're going to school, with God teaching you from the Bible. I'd have to say I didn't understand that when I enrolled in this course called marriage. But looking back over four decades of marriage, I'd have to say I know more about love because of marriage than any other relationship in my life. Bob: Some of the wives, who are listening to us have this conversation, are thinking: “The negatives that you're talking about with my husband—some of these are pretty dark negatives. Some of these are negatives that cast such a shadow over the relationship that it's hard for me just to hold things together. How do I turn that into a positive? Or what do I do with those negatives? How do I deal with a husband who—man! the negatives—they're stark, and they're real, and it's really challenging?” Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I'm not married to Dennis,”—[Laughter]—  14:00 —you know, a wife, who's listening, is saying: “I'm not married to Dennis, who's a godly virtuous man, who is pursuing a walk with the Lord. I'm married to a guy who's marginally interested in spiritual things, and who's yelling at the kids, and who's drinking too much. What do I do?” Barbara: That's a very complex question because there are so many levels and degrees of what constitute negatives and difficult things in a relationship. So let me answer it two ways. One is: “Any wife has to start by looking at herself and saying: ‘Okay; God, am I accepting the man that You've put in my life? Am I giving thanks for him in his strengths and his weaknesses? Am I looking to You to do the transforming work?'” because you even said in your question / a woman says: “What can I do? How do I relate to him and help transform him?”  Well, it's not the wife's job. I think we so easily get caught up in thinking that it's our responsibility to fix him / to change him.  15:00 We do that with our kids—we're always helping our kids. We talked about that on another broadcast that helping a husband is different than helping your kids. But it starts by her attitude and her perspective, and her belief in God and His sovereignty, and His ability to work. It starts with where she's focusing her eyes—is she looking at all of the negative in his life to such a degree that she's totally forgotten all the good that there is? My first challenge is to her: “Are you open to God being at work? Have you totally given up on Him? Are you giving thanks for your relationship the way it is?”  And then the other side is: “If it really is indeed very, very difficult things that are beyond a woman's responsibility to deal with, you may need to see a counselor, you may need to get a pastor or someone who's wise and skilled to intervene—to help you, to coach you, to guide you. Find an older woman who can be your mentor to help give you perspective.  16:00 One of the things that's true about us, as women—I had a conversation with my daughter just yesterday on the phone about this—is that it's so easy for us, because of our emotional makeup, to get very overwhelmed by the circumstances of life. So a woman—who is married and is discouraged by her relationship with her husband—she can get so overwhelmed to the point that she just doesn't see clearly.  That's why a mentor is so helpful—someone who can look at it objectively and say: “You know, it's probably not as bad as you think it is. Let me give you one or two things that you can try—one or two practical suggestions that might make a difference for you,” because we do lose perspective and we do—we just get all out of sorts. It's very common for us, as women, to get discouraged with our marriages because we're just discouraged about life in general.  So check your heart.  17:00 Find someone to help you / find a mentor—find another woman who can speak objectively into your life and say, “It may not be as bad as you think it is, and here are some things you can try.”  Dennis: What I'd say to my daughters is—I'd say: “Do you remember when you'd get up in the morning and see your mom reading the Bible? What was that symbolic of? It was that your mom was teachable, that she was trying to meet with God, and ultimately that her hope was in God.”  So the woman, who's listening to us right now, who has lost hope—she's got to have a spiritual thermometer check: “How's your relationship with God?” You've got to be reminded of who He is, how He operates in this imperfect world that we live in, and what he's calling us to do, which is live and walk by faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. Barbara: I just want to say to the moms, who are listening, who've got a houseful of kids—or even maybe one or two kids, but it feels like a full house to you—I did not get up every morning and read my Bible.  18:00 My kids didn't see me doing that every day. I just don't want anyone listening to think that I was that woman that got up every morning and read my Bible. There were weeks that I would go by and not read my Bible in the morning. I would talk to God, and I would pray, and I would try to catch snippets of the Bible here and there in different places; but I was pretty overwhelmed and pretty buried with kids and with life.  Yes, I totally agree with what you just said, Dennis, that it is absolutely crucial that your hope is in God and no place else. Your hope can't be in your husband because he will fail, that's a given. Put your hope in God, and keep it there, and do all that you can to maintain that. I just don't want anybody to feel like there's this standard of: “I have to get up and read my Bible every morning before my kids are up.” If you can do that, great! I couldn't do that, and I failed miserably many times; but my hope remained in Christ for the most part. 19:00 Dennis: There is a Proverb that I was thinking about as I was thinking about our listeners today, who are going to hear Barbara on this subject—it is Proverbs, Chapter 4, verse 23—we quote it quite frequently, here on FamilyLife Today—it says, “Keep your heart with all vigilance for from it flow the springs of life.” You may not be able to get in the Bible every day—I'm glad you said that, just to remove this mythical phantom that exists of the super spiritual mom, but your heart needs to know whom it is that you serve / who is your hope—and you need to cultivate that.  I'm glad you mentioned a mentor, or a friend, or even a counselor if things really go south—or to keep them from going south—someone that you can lean into and you can spill out your emotions in safety and talk about it— 20:00 —not just being negative but try to find someone who can coach you out of the ditch that you may be in. That's what church is all about / that's what the community of faith—of Christ followers ought to be about. We ought to be meeting each other in our ditches and saying: “You know what? It's safe. We're all broken. There is nobody who's got it all together!” But to maybe dig in with a group of women into a book like this, Bob, and decide: “We're going to get real with each other. We're going to get honest, and we're going to make sure our hope is in the right place.” Bob: I was going to say—at one level, that's what this book is all about. It is a mentoring book. It is an older woman mentoring younger women on what it means to be a wife according to God's design. Dennis: I would just like to say here—and I know I'm biased—so the listeners—they already know that / they've already heard me talk about Barbara in the past—I'm biased toward her. This is not a fluffy, feel-good book.  21:00 This is a real-life book that talks about where you are living, as a woman, wife, mom, grandmother. I think it is life-giving—it's the words of a wise woman that are bringing life to others because she's reminding people of the truth. People today need to get away from the culture, and the messages of the culture, and the messages of all their buddies on Facebook® or Twitter®, and they need to dig in deep with someone who'll tell them the real truth and nothing but the truth.  Bob: If it was just you and this book alone, that would be good for your soul; but if it could be you and three or four other women and this book together, I think that just adds a dimension to where there's wisdom in a multitude of counselors / there's life-on-life happening. There's a support that can happen there. Dennis: Yes. 22:00 Bob: I'd encourage women to get together with three or four other women and get a copy of Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters. We have a downloadable discussion guide that is available so that you and your friends can go through this book together, and then, there are questions you can ask. Again, you can find out more when you go to FamilyLifeToday.com. Order the book from us, online, at FamilLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY if you'd like to order a copy of Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife. It's the new book by Barbara Rainey. Now, we have an anniversary we want to acknowledge today—Rick and Jill Bridges from Whittier, California, celebrating six years of marriage together. “Congratulations!” to the Bridges on their sixth anniversary. FamilyLife is celebrating an anniversary this year as well—it is 40 years of ministry for us / we started back in 1976.  23:00 Our whole goal with this ministry is to help more couples have more anniversaries. We want to provide you with practical biblical help and hope for your marriage and your family so that you have more years together—more years where you are thriving, as a couple and as a family. We want to effectively develop families, who are anchored firmly in God's Word. We appreciate those of you who partner with us in this effort. FamilyLife Today could not exist if it weren't for friends, like you, who help support this ministry with your donations. Thank you for the part you play in helping to make FamilyLife Today possible.  By the way, if you'd like a copy of Barbara Rainey's new book, we are making that available to anyone who makes a donation today. You can go online at FamilyLifeToday.com make an online donation and get a copy of the book. Or request the book when you call 1-800-FL-TODAY and make a donation. Or you can mail your donation to us, along with your request for Barbara's book.  24:00 Our address is FamilyLife Today, PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223.  We want to talk more tomorrow about how a wife can stay positive and stay focused on affirming her husband, even when things aren't going well / even when he's not doing a great job. We're going to talk more about that tomorrow. Hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2016 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Keys to a Healthy Marriage Guest:                         Barbara Rainey                    From the series:       Letters to My Daughters (Day 1 of 2)  Bob: Barbara Rainey likens intimacy in marriage to a secret garden—a place that only a husband and wife go together. She says it's a risky place.Barbara: It is a place of raw exposure. It is a place of being real with one another. It is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship, so we need the walls of a commitment. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place.Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, February 6th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey. I'm Bob Lepine. We'll talk today about how a husband and wife can work together to cultivate the secret garden of their marriage. Stay with us.1:00And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. It's been almost a year now since the release of your wife's book, Letters to My Daughters. We're finally getting around to Chapter 6— Dennis: You've got— Barbara: —which rhymes with—[Laughter] Dennis: —you've got a cheesy grin on your face. Bob: You—you know, Chapter— Dennis: The listeners can't see your face! [Laughter] Bob: —six!—six. If you replace one letter in “six,” you get an idea of what we're going to be talking about— Dennis: Well— Bob: —today. Dennis: Barbara's book, Letters to My Daughters: The Art of Being a Wife, has flown off the shelf. It's really doing well. I understand why, because I think this is Barbara's best book ever. It is certainly a very honest look at our marriage. I want to welcome her back to the broadcast. Thanks for coming back in, Sweetheart. Barbara: I'm happy to be here. Dennis: I know you are. Barbara: Yes. Dennis: I know you are. Since we're going to talk about s—s—s— Bob: Sex. Just say it—sex. Dennis: Chapter 6. Barbara: It is not that hard for you to say! [Laughter] 2:00 Bob: You've heard him say it before?  Barbara: I don't think it's that hard for him to say! [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to pray for our audience; because as I was preparing to come in here, reading Barbara's book, I thought: “You know? Oh my! How broken are we as human beings—how many different perspectives we come at this subject.” There are some listeners who've been hurt deeply by their past choices and some are in present relationships. I just want God to intervene and minister to—whether they're single, married, divorced, single parents—I just want to ask God to meet every person where they are:  Father, You made us, male and female. There is no surprise in terms of how we function. You made us to merge together and become one.  3:00 Yet, what You designed, man has degenerated and has twisted. You know that as well.  You know where each listener is, who is tuning in to our broadcast today. I just would ask You to be gentle with each of them. Use these broadcasts, I pray, to minister to them just where they are. Produce some hope, some help, and some encouragement to each person listening. For the guys, who are listening in, Father, I pray that they might listen with some understanding. We tend to be too quick to judgment on this subject. I pray for all of us just to be wise in terms of what we hear and what we apply. In Christ's name I pray. Amen. Bob: Amen. Barbara this is a subject that obviously is personal—it's intimate—it really does get to the core of who we are as human beings. It can be threatening for a lot of people.  4:00 I was very interested—as you invited your daughters and daughters-in-law to ask questions about marriage, the first question you got related to this—I'm just going to read it from the book——it says: “So yeah. Sex. You gave me “the talk,” and we had our pre-wedding conversation that was pretty short and hurried. No offense; it was busy. I get it. But now I'm married. And it's um…different. Fine. FINE. But, well, I have to ask this…what's the big deal?” I thought that was an interesting question from a daughter to say, “I'm in the midst of it, but I'm not sure I understand why it's as big a deal as people say it is.” Barbara: It's a great question. You know, it was one that I just had to think about a lot. Actually, I had to think about all these questions a lot because, as Dennis prayed, this topic—this part of our marriage relationship—is not easy.  5:00 It's not simple. It's not cut and dry / it's not black and white. It's very complicated; and even though it's very good, it's very complicated. My short answer to “What is the big deal?” is that it takes a long, long time to understand what God has built into us, as men and women. It takes a while to understand the purpose of sex. It takes a while to undo things that we've brought into our marriage. It just takes time. I think, in our culture today, more than in any other generation, we expect instant results in every area of our lives. We're so used to having instant access to information. We just don't know how to wait—we don't know how to persevere. We don't know how to have patience.    I think, in this area of marriage, our expectation for change to happen quickly and for results to be mastered fast, is a misplaced hope; because I think, in the long run, the goal of marriage is a marathon—  6:00 —it's a lifetime race. Figuring out why it's a big deal takes a lot of time. It's me getting to know my husband, as a man, and him getting to know me, as a woman. That isn't going to take place quickly. Dennis: If you go back to Genesis, as it describes two people becoming one—there was a progression that God declared. He said, “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother, shall cleave to his wife and the two shall become one [emphasis added].” One of the problems, Bob—and many of our listeners may be experiencing this right now—we have reversed the order. Bob: Yes. Dennis: We're trying to become one without the leaving and the cleaving—the commitment that really bonds two broken human beings hearts to one another and gives you the only chance of two broken people experiencing marriage for a lifetime, as Barbara was talking about here.  7:00 Bob: Barbara, explain to our listeners why, for a wife / for a woman this issue of a solid commitment is so critical when it comes to intimacy. Barbara: In the book I tell the story of a book that we used to read when our kids were growing up, called The Secret Garden. It's the story of a young woman / a young girl, who grew up in a huge manor estate in England. As she was growing up there, she discovered this garden; and it was a secret garden. It had walls all the way around it that were six to eight feet tall, brick or stone walls. As she dug though the ivy, she found a door. The door was locked and she couldn't get in. Over time, she began to continue to dig around. One day, she found a key and was able to unlock the door and go in.  I use that story in the book because I liken this area of our marriage—this intimacy / this sex in our marriage—to a secret garden.  8:00 It's a place that only a husband and wife go together—no one else is allowed. It is for them only. I think the reason commitment is so important is because it is a place of raw exposure—it is a place of being real with one another—it is the place where we are most transparent in our marriage relationship. We need the walls that that secret garden had. We need the walls of a commitment. We need that security, as women in particular, but men need it as well for us to experience what God intended for us to experience in marriage. Both of us need the security and the comfort of knowing that we've got a perimeter around our marriage much like a rock wall around a secret garden. We need that commitment to be in place. Bob: You're talking about something that goes far beyond just the biological experience of intimacy— 9:00 Barbara: Absolutely! Bob: —because the biology may not need that, but the oneness we're talking about here— Barbara: Correct. Bob: —really requires that we can trust one another— Dennis: Yes. Bob: —in order to be vulnerable with one another. Dennis: In fact, Bob, I think what you're hitting on here is so important. I think one of the least understood passages in Scripture—there's a reason why we can't understand it—Genesis, Chapter 2, verse 25. I'm going to read it and then I'm going to explain why we don't understand it—it says, “And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.” That verse comes right after the leave, cleave, and become one. The reason we can't understand what that means—we have never experienced what Adam and Eve did in the garden before the fall. Barbara: That's right; yes. 10:00 Dennis: Two people, totally naked, totally exposed, totally transparent with one another—and there was no shame. There was joy / there was delight—there was the experience of God and one another—there was no hiding in a marriage back then.  When it comes to the subject of sex, I think we're trying to get to that point of being naked and unashamed; but we don't know how to get there. So a lot of single people are co-habiting—they're thinking they can experience the sexual delights of marriage without the commitment— Bob: Right. Dennis: —and they can't! Barbara's talking about a commitment that creates safety around this garden. Bob: There is something about being able to say: “You're safe. I'm not going anywhere. Barbara: Yes. Bob: “I will not expose what happens here. You can be who you are and still be loved.” That's what we long for— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —and that is what is supposed to be going on in intimacy in a marriage relationship. 11:00 Barbara: That's what we get married for—we get married to be loved unconditionally. That's our expectation and our hope when we say, “I do”; but we don't realize that it's not just the physical oneness that produces that. It's all of the conversations—it's learning to be, as Dennis just said, naked and unashamed. That does not happen quickly. If you'll think about what happened in Genesis—after that verse where Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed—and then, when the fall happened, what was the first thing that Adam and Eve experienced?   Bob: Their shame. Barbara: Their shame and they were afraid. Bob: Yes. Barbara: I think we vastly underestimate the fears that we bring into marriage. All of us come into marriage with fears, even if we don't have past experiences that were negative or were difficult. We still have the fear of rejection; we have the fear of exposure; we have the fear of being known—  12:00 —just the question, “If you really knew me as I am inside—as I know I am inside—would he still love me?” A man thinks the same thing, “If she really knew what I thought—if she really knew who I was—would she still accept me?”  I think that fear—that we all bring into a marriage—takes time to expose those fears because it's a risk to do so. It takes time to work toward that place of being unashamed. It doesn't ever totally go away, because it won't until we go to heaven; but we can make great progress / we can make great strides in that comfort level that we all long for when we get married. Dennis: That's exactly right.  I have to use a present-day illustration, Bob, of something that really makes me sad—but immediately after the evening news / the local news here, there's one of these Hollywood reports. It always is telling of some breakup of some Hollywood marriage.  13:00 I really feel a great deal of compassion, because they don't understand the God who made this relationship and how He made them to function. In their lost-ness, they're just trying to reach out to one another and experience that oneness and experience the intimacy of a great relationship.  But I've got to tell you—Barbara and I have been married 44 years—and there have been a lot of incredible highs and sadly, some tough, tough lows. The thing that has kept us safe and secure in our relationship is we've never/ever used the “D” word—divorce. It has never crossed our lips. We have used the “C” word—covenant-keeping love for a lifetime. In the process of doing that, two imperfect people are wobbling their way to the finish line, attempting to represent how God designed marriage to proclaim His love to the world; because a marriage is to be a model of Christ and the church.  14:00 It is representative of a husband who loves, serves, leads, and gives his life on behalf of his wife—and a wife who supports her husband and loves him back. One of the ways they both do this is through the gift of sexual intimacy in marriage. Bob: Barbara, I had to smile when I read this letter from your daughter, saying, “So, what's the big deal?” for two reasons. One is because there is a stereotype that says: “This is how women view sex in marriage.” Men are very different. I stop to think to myself, “Would a man ever write to his father, ‘So Dad—' Barbara: “What's the big deal?” [Laughter] Bob: —“'What's the big deal? We're married now. I don't get it—what's the big deal?'” I also smiled because there's a sense in which the mystery of marital intimacy— Barbara: Yes. Bob: —is just beginning to unfold in the early days of marriage; right? 15:00 Barbara: That's a word that I use a lot in my book—is the word, “mystery,”—because I think it helps us be more at peace with the process. When we realize that marriage is a mystery—that we will never, totally understand it—because, as Dennis just said, it is a picture of Christ's relationship with us. Just accepting the fact that marriage is a mystery kind of gives you a sense of: “Ah! I can rest. I can relax.” It is a mystery and it is a process of beginning to discover what God has built in this, all along, from the very beginning. As we've been saying, it's about getting to know one another and being transparent with one another. Dennis: When we think of a mystery, we think of an unsolved murder case or a crime. Bob: —a puzzle. Dennis: Yes; exactly. This mystery is going to be revealed—[Laughter] —in heaven, in eternity, with Jesus Christ and the church at the wedding feast of the bridegroom and the bride—the church being the bride.  16:00 In between time, between now—this thing called “time”—and eternity, here you are, as a couple, hammering out your commitment and attempting to be naked and unashamed in a way that honors God. It's tough, and it's hard. I would ask you, Barbara, as a young wife might come to you—what would you say is the most important thing she needs to know as she approaches this most intimate area of the marriage relationship? What does she need to know and do? Barbara: I think the first thing she needs to know—and she may already know this—but I think it bears repeating—and that is that marriage is holy. I think that when we see it as—not just a gift, not just a privilege, not just something we get to experience—but there is an element of marriage that has a holy aspect to it; because God created it and because He lives in our lives, there is a holiness there.  17:00 I think that helps us put it in right perspective—it helps us go: “Well no wonder it's so hard! No wonder it's a challenge to discover the kind of oneness that we got married for.” Secondly, from there, I want to say, too, that I would strongly encourage any young wife to remember that it's an important part of the relationship. It's really a mirror of the rest of your relationship. You may feel like you're having good sex; but if you're not really becoming one—if you're not really being transparent with one another—then you're not going to be really growing together in other areas of your relationship.  It's important that you keep that area of your marriage healthy and growing and keep it alive. The temptation is—when it gets hard, is to just say, “Well, forget it!” but you can't give up on it because it's one of the important parts that God has built into a marriage. Because God created it and God sanctioned it, then we need to learn what He wants us to do with it—we need to figure it out. 18:00 Bob: You know a lot of wives, who are saying, “I hear you and I agree with you; and if I was not tired all the time,— Barbara: Yes. Bob: “—I would give more attention to this! But I am tired all the time! How do I make this a priority, and how do I make it important when I'm exhausted?” Barbara: Did you read that in my book? Bob: Well, I did. Yes! [Laughter] Barbara: Yes; I talk about that in the book, because that is such a common complaint for women. I get it! I was tired all the time—and Dennis used to say he would be a very wealthy man if he had a dollar for every time I said, “I am so tired!” [Laughter] Right? Dennis: Right! [Laughter] Barbara: But even if we are so tired—and we are—and a lot of women are exhausted all the time because of the responsibilities of jobs and kids—and just the emotional weight of being in life. There are just so many ups and downs that we feel so deeply; and yet, it's learning to prioritize your life.  19:00 It's deciding, during a particular day, that you're going to take a nap so you've got more energy for your husband at night or it's choosing not to add these things to your schedule so that you can have more energy and more focus for your marriage. It's choosing to keep your marriage a priority—make it a priority. That's hard to do sometimes. There were plenty of times when I would take a nap in the afternoon and I'd still be exhausted at night. Dennis: That's correct! [Laughter] Barbara: It's not a quick and easy solution. [Laughter] Dennis: I just want to insert something. There are men, who are listening right now: “That's right! She's just tired too much.” To which I would say to the guys: “Are you cleaning up the kitchen— Bob: Yes. Dennis: “—after dinner? Are you helping to get the kids ready for bed?—brush their teeth, read them a story, pray with them. Get down on your knees, next to them, and look them in the eyes and ask them how their day was,”—but take some of your wife's load off of her and assume it yourself!  20:00 There is a concept in the Bible called “bearing one another's burdens.” I do think some guys—they want sex, but they don't want the process of loving—that means nourishing, which is creating growth—and cherishing, which is creating value— Bob: Yes. Dennis: —they don't want to do that with their wife. When you help your wife with her household duties, with the kids and all—you're making a statement of value to your wife that she ultimately will hear. Bob: I have to ask you about the wife, who would say, “This is a priority for me— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“but it's less a priority for my husband.”  Barbara: Yes. Bob: Let me first of all, though, let our listeners know how they can get a copy of the book that you've written, which is called Letters to My Daughters. It's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You address, not only this subject, but you address a variety of subjects—letters that your daughters and daughters-in-law have written to you over the years, asking questions about being a godly wife and how you've responded to those letters that they've written.  21:00 You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy of the book; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY and order by phone. Again the website is FamilyLifeToday.com; and you can call 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Dennis: Bob, I just want to say a word to our listeners. When you buy a book from FamilyLife Today, you're helping to keep this radio broadcast on the air. I've got to tell you—the people who really float this ship right here, to keep FamilyLife Today broadcasting, are Legacy Partners. They're people who give, every month, and who say: “I want to keep this kind of right-thinking—a biblical approach to marriage, to sex, to intimacy—I want to keep this on the air in my community; because this is going to make a difference in a lot of people's lives.” I just want to say, “Thanks,” to Legacy Partners right now: “Thank you for making this broadcast possible.” Bob: If you'd like to join the Legacy Partner team, we could use more Legacy Partners.  22:00 You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the link, where it says, “Donate.” There's information available there about becoming a Legacy Partner. Again, our website is FamilyLifeToday.com. Barbara Rainey has joined us today. We've been talking about Chapter 6 in her book, Letters to My Daughters. Barbara, we started the conversation with a letter that you got from one of your daughters, saying, “What's the big deal?” There are some wives, who have been listening to us have this conversation, and they have said, “My question is: ‘Why isn't this a bigger deal— Barbara: Yes.  Bob: —“'for my husband? I'm ready. In fact, I feel robbed, or starved, or like there's something wrong with me! What do I do?” Barbara: I interviewed a couple of young women when I wrote this particular portion of the chapter because I wanted to know what they thought, and what they felt, and what they were experiencing. It's interesting—I don't have statistics to back this up—but I did do some research and talked to a number of different counselors and different people.  23:00 I think, oftentimes, there are issues in a young man's life that are keeping him from wanting to have sex with his wife; and typically, it's pornography.  In the women that I talked to—when I was preparing to write this chapter—that was the issue with most of these young men. There was so much shame attached to them as men / as young men because they were exposed, when they were children or when they were teenagers, and they just didn't know how to handle it—they still don't know how to handle it. That shame is keeping them from wanting to be one, sexually, with their wife.  Whether it is pornography or whether it is something else, the encouragement that I got from those that I talked to and that I would offer to you is that this is a concern that you need to carry with him. Dennis just mentioned, a minute ago, the verse, “Bear one another's burdens.” Once you become married, your burdens become one another's. You need to carry those burdens together. 24:00 I would encourage a wife, who is in that situation, to say to her husband: “You know, I know this is hard; and this is hard for me too. Let's go find someone who can help us; because I'm committed to you for a lifetime, and you agreed to be committed to me for a lifetime. Let's figure out what we need to do. Let's find what challenges we need to face. Let's do the work together to make our marriage what God intended it to be.” I know—from talking to these women—that it can change / it can be redeemed. God can change those broken places in both of our lives and bring you to a place where marriage is what you wanted it to be and where sex, in particular, is as God designed it to be. Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2017 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com    

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Embracing the Truth Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                            From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 2 of 3)   Bob: How ought we live, as followers of Jesus, in a culture that is moving away from a biblical foundation for life? Caleb Kaltenbach says Jesus demonstrated what life looks like, full of grace and truth. Caleb: I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?”  It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there's a tension between grace and truth. Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, July 3rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 If you've found that life is getting harder to navigate, as a follower of Christ, we'll see if we can help with some directions today. Stay with us. And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, years ago, there was a lot of controversy around a children's book that had found its way into libraries. I think it was called Heather Has Two Mommies. It was a children's book designed to provide a picture of normalization for a child who might be growing up in a household where there were two mommies or two daddies, trying to present that as maybe a new normal. We have somebody with us today for whom that was the normal, growing up in a home with two mommies part of the time and with a bachelor dad the other part of the time. Dennis: Yes; and Caleb, I just want to say, “Thanks for being on our broadcast and sharing your story.”  2:00 Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back. Caleb: It's great to be back. Dennis: He's written a book called Messy Grace: How a Pastor with Gay Parents Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction. The reason I just appreciate you being on the show, talking about this, is I think there are a lot of people, like me, who may not have a lot of gay friends; or if we do, we don't know it. We need coaching / we need understanding. We need someone to take us near and begin the journey for us. I feel like your book did that for me. I really liked being able to peer into your family, where you were raised by two moms and your dad, who later came out as a homosexual as well. You were raised in the midst of no faith / no Christian worldview. I think we're clueless! 3:00 Really, the Christian community's not really wise about who our audience is, and where they are, and where they aren't. Caleb: No; absolutely. I think that we have come to a point in our nation where we have to realize that we are the away team. We are not the home team anymore. We realize that more than ever at our church. We firmly believe in the inerrancy of Scripture / we believe in God's sovereignty—we believe in all these things—but we're all very intentional in being missionaries in our context / missionaries in Southern California and understanding, as we talked about earlier, that not everybody is at the same point in the spiritual journey.  We just surveyed our church three weeks ago and found out that 42 percent of our attendants, on any given Sunday, is unchurched—meaning that we're the first church they've been to or they haven't been since they were a kid—because we're so intentional about going after the lost sheep that Jesus talks about in Luke 15:1-7. But we do that without compromising the gospel and the message; because we have to learn where we are, and we have to understand—  4:00 —I think, specifically with this issue, or any other issue that we're dealing with—that there's a huge tension between grace and truth.  I think another way to say it is that there is a big difference between acceptance and approval. I think that we have to understand that, not just with the LGBT community, but we are moving into a culture where people go with whatever they want to do. There are going to be new things that come out that just really scare Christians, and we don't know how to handle it. We think: “Okay; do I keep my relationship with this person? Do I not?”  It's not just the LGBT issue; there are so many issues that are going to come down the pipeline. We have to understand that we are missionaries, and there is a difference between acceptance and approval; and there is a tension between grace and truth. Bob: You've already shared with us that your impression of Christians, growing up, was that they were bigoted/hateful. When you were with your mom, Christians would mock, and would shout, and would be hateful toward your mom.  5:00 Less so with your dad, because he wasn't out of the closet at this point; but your dominant thought was, “Christians are just not worth much.” You wound up at a Bible study in high school, and you went into that Bible study with the intent of wanting to undermine everything that was being taught there. Over time, something shifted in your heart and your thinking. Caleb: Yes; because I saw that Jesus was not representative of how people on the street corners were acting. I think today we would say Jesus is not representative of how some Christians act on Facebook®, social media, or Twitter®, Snapchat, Periscope, or whatever—that Jesus is not reflective of that. When I think about the people who are on the street corners, I think to myself, “What about what Paul said in Romans 2:4, when he says, ‘Don't you know that it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance?' What about what Paul said in Romans 12:18: ‘Live at peace with everyone'?” That doesn't mean that we agree with everybody, but that means that we're not going to belittle people.  6:00 What about what Jesus said in Matthew 5:43-48?—you know: “…love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you”—and by the way—“if you only love those who love you, what reward are you going to get?”  I look at the people on the street corners, and really, in my life too—for me, messy grace is ultra-legalistic, fundamentalist Christians. You know, that's my version of messy grace that I have to love and be mindful about. Am I exemplifying what Paul says in Romans 2 and 12? Am I exemplifying what Jesus says: “If you only love those who love you, what reward will you get?” Dennis: I'm glad I had a man in my life who called me to love / he called me to truth too; but he said: “The preeminence of love—it is the banner of being a disciple of Jesus Christ. Yes; we do stand for the truth.” I'll tell you why that was important in my life, Caleb. You can comment on this, because you've undoubtedly run into quite a few guys like me.  I think I, like a lot of other Christians, have a high need to be right. I don't think we have a high need to make sure we're loving.  7:00 That, for me, has helped me move from pressing the point of the gospel—which is the truth / it is right—but it's pressed me back to going, “How do I show love to other people who are broken?” We're all broken—not just them—I am too.  I think, for the most part, we in the Christian community really don't know how to love people who aren't like us, and who don't love us, and who don't think like us and believe like us. Caleb: I think the reason is that it is much easier to make a point / it is much harder to love somebody. When you make a point, you can be right. The woman caught in adultery in John, Chapter 8—and the Pharisees and the teachers of the Law, who placed her before Jesus after humiliating her, they did not care about her life—restoring her/reconciliation. They were willing for her to die for them to be right. In other words, they believed that their theological conviction was a catalyst to allow them to mistreat other people.  8:00 Our theological convictions must never be catalysts to mistreat others. If anything, our theology should drive us to love people and treat them well.  I think about Jesus, and here's what Jesus did—here's what Jesus did—Jesus called the disciples into a discipleship relationship before they even believed He was the Son of God. I'm willing to bet—I don't know, but I'm willing to bet—that Matthew was not a good synagogue-going boy, in Matthew 9; and yet Jesus still looked at him, despite all that, and said: “Hey, you're coming with Me. Follow Me. I want you to be a part of what I'm doing.” Jesus regularly spent time with people, and here's where I think He models the difference between acceptance and approval. Jesus loved people where they were / Jesus loved them for who they were, but Jesus was not content to leave them where they were. He said, “God has something greater embedded in you that only His sovereignty can bring out.” I think about that and I think to myself: “We need to do the same thing.  9:00 “We have to love people where they're at.” That doesn't mean we approve of every life choice that somebody makes. Dennis: Right; right. Bob: You began to get a picture of who the real Jesus was as you were going to this Bible study in high school; but it had to dawn on you pretty quickly that, if this was true and if you were going to buy into this idea that the Jesus presented in the Bible is who He says He is—that He's God / that Christianity is true—that's going to put you at odds with your mom, with your dad, with your mom's partner. This is going to turn your whole world upside down. Caleb: Absolutely. I spent so much time studying what the Bible had to say about marriage relationships, gender, sexuality, intimacy—everything. I came to this conclusion, the one that I still hold today, that God designed sexual intimacy for the expression in marriage between one man and one woman—I believe that today. I believe anything outside of that is a sin.  10:00 That it is between a man and a woman in marriage—that's what God designed intimacy for.  Now, I also believe, to reinforce what I said earlier, that our biblical beliefs should not allow us to berate anyone. Our biblical beliefs should build us up to the point, where we are willing to love people; because the more that we love God, He gives us margin to love people who seem to be unlovable to us. I think the real mark of Christian maturity is: “How well can you love those whom you disagree with, don't like / don't like you, are difficult, or are just plain different than you are?” Bob: I'm trying to imagine you coming to this conclusion / this understanding of what the Bible has to say about gender, and marriage, and sexuality, and going back to your mom and having the conversation—or to your dad—and saying, “You know, I've come to believe something different.” Caleb: Imagine how a young teenager, who is gay or same-sex attracted, feels when they come out to their conservative Christian parents.  11:00 I was a 16-year-old teenager coming out as a Christian to my three gay parents. You would expect love and tolerance; because that's what my mother, and her partner, and my dad, in his own way, always preached. But I got the opposite—they kicked me out.  I went back, eventually, kind of slowly built up that relationship. Again, I realized that the more I loved God, the more margin He gave me to love people who were difficult in my life—I had to forgive. Bob: That love was tested; because as you attended the Bible study, you decided to go to church. You went to your dad's church, and that turned out to be a bit of a surprise to you as well. Caleb: Yes; I went to my dad's church and—you know, I'd gone off and on. They really didn't teach the Bible.  Then I got invited by a friend of mine, who was a Christian, and his dad was a pastor at a church. I got invited to go to his church. I went, and I found Jesus was preached and talked about much differently.  12:00 I found a group of individuals who firmly believed what Jesus said and what Scripture claimed, but also believed that that should never compromise our love for other people. We can't compromise conviction or love whatsoever. I remember being in this group and seeing them and thinking to myself, “This is something I could get onboard with.” God just began to develop in me this passion to be able to tell people about the Jesus I discovered. Bob: I want you to take me, if you can / if you remember it, to the first conversation you had with your mom or with your dad, where you said, “I've started to change my thinking.” Caleb: My dad told me that I had spit in the eyes of God, because he had me baptized Episcopalian/Anglican when I was a kid/baby. I remember, when I told him, he was so reactionary and angry. I didn't understand why then. I know now—because he was in the closet, and he was hiding it.  13:00 When I told my mom, on the other hand—I mean, my mom—I love her to death; but drama, drama, drama. My mom—we were driving from Concordia, Missouri—that's where my parents would meet / in Concordia, Missouri, at McDonald's® in between Columbia and Kansas City—my dad dropped me off and looked at my mom and said: “Well, good luck, Mary Lou. You're going to love this.”  I got in and I told my mom. She started crying—just crying, crying, crying. My mom, when we got home, went in; and I stayed in the car, because I didn't want to go in yet. I waited about 15 minutes, and she told Vera by then. As I said, Vera didn't get along with me / I didn't get along with her. She was a PhD psychologist, who had a very liberal view, not only on psychology but on everything. I sat down; and I remember she asked me, “So you're a Christian now, Caleb?” I said, “Yes.”  14:00 It was just very contentious—again, to the point where my mom said, “Hey, you're not going to come back for a while,”—basically kicked me out. My dad had told me the same thing at his house, and it was very difficult. Bob: So you called friends and said, “Can I crash at your house?” Caleb: Yes! Dennis: You were 16? Caleb: Yes. Dennis: Not long after that, someone invited you to a Youth for Christ conference? Caleb: Youth for Christ, also known as CIY, Christ in Youth. It was a great conference, but I had never been to a Christian conference. It was so great being with other high schoolers, who were my own age, and getting to know them.  I remember, again, one morning, I woke up and I just couldn't imagine myself doing anything else other than telling other people about this Jesus whom I had learned about. I mean, I figured I had lived 16 years of my life away from Jesus / I want to spend the rest of my life telling other people about Jesus and saying, again: “He's not like the people on the street corners!”  A week to the day that I was baptized, I said, “I want to give my life to full-time Christian vocational ministry.” Bob: A week after you were baptized? Caleb: Yes. 15:00 Bob: Okay; there are folks, who are listening, who are going: “Well, there's a pattern here. I mean, this guy grows up and he has two moms. One of them doesn't like him and doesn't like men in general, and his dad's in the closet. He's just looking for a way out of the trauma that he's been in for 16 years. He's easy pickings for this kind of stuff.” Caleb: But it wasn't trauma for me. I didn't want people to know about my mom. Dennis: It was your normal. Caleb: It was my normal! Absolutely! I knew—it was different enough, where I didn't want to broadcast it in the school—but in no way, shape, or form was I walking around saying, “Woe is me.” I'll be honest—my mom and her friends were fun. They were fun people to be around! There were some things that I saw that I shouldn't have seen; but back in my day, when I would go to somebody's house for a house party with my mom, I would take my Atari®, or Commodore 64, or Nintendo® / original Nintendo Duck Hunt™, and I would go find a room.  16:00 I still saw things that were inappropriate, but I did not have this—at that point—this scarred idea of my life. It wasn't until after I saw Jesus, and how He set things up, and how He originally created things to be until Adam and Eve rebelled / until sin entered the world, that I realized, at that point: “This was not right. This is not how God designed—this is not God's best. You cannot have a reflection of Christ's relationship with the church in any relationship other than a heterosexual relationship.” I mean, I realized so many things. And if there's ever—listen, if there's ever anybody who wanted to disprove, you know, what the Bible said about sexuality, it was me!  I mean, even after I changed my view on sexuality, if somebody brought up a new idea, I would still look at it; because my relationship with my parents was damaged. Why would I go from an environment where I had absolute peace with my parents to now an environment where there was chaos? 17:00 Bob: Let me ask you about that; because in the last five years, there have been books published presenting an evangelical view that maybe we've misunderstood all the texts that you were reading in high school. They say it's possible to be gay and to believe the Bible and to love Jesus. You've seen those books. You've read those books; right? Caleb: Oh, absolutely. Here's what these books do—they have no exegetical or historical ground to stand on. They have to do fancy exegetical footwork / they have to do fancy footwork with a background narrative and the backgrounds of the New Testament, especially with Romans 1 and so on and so forth.  They have to do an argument of silence, where they say something like, “Hey, Jesus never said anything about same-sex relationships, so that makes it okay.” Well, there are a lot of things that Jesus didn't say anything about, so “Let me get my list ready,”—you can't make that argument. I remember, after I came to Christ, having a conversation with a lady who was a dean at a liberal seminary in Kansas City.  18:00 My mom “sicced” her on me at one of her GLAD events. I still went with my mom when I was a high schooler / when I was a Christian, because I wanted an opportunity to tell people about Jesus in different conversations. She [the dean] automatically started challenging me. It really came down to the fact, where she said: “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. So that makes it okay.”  Now, we look at it—and you can even get very academic if you want—and say: “Well, Jesus was sent to Israel. In Israel, under a Pharisaical rule, they did not deal with homosexuality like Paul did when he was sent to the Gentiles / to the Roman Empire.” That's another whole ball of wax. If you really want to get exegetical, let's look at Matthew 19, when Jesus has an opportunity to define marriage as anything other than a man and a woman; and does he? No; He affirms what God says in Genesis 2. 19:00 Dennis: So, here you are. You're this on-fire 16-year-old, who now has been baptized. You've been to a conference and surrendered to God's call on your life to move into full-time Christian ministry. I can only imagine—when you went back to Columbia— Bob: Yes—how that news went; yes. Dennis: —and back to where your two moms lived in Kansas City, how did those conversations go down? Caleb: Well, it went down just about like a lead balloon would. Have you ever ridden a lead balloon before? Bob: Just crashed. Caleb: It crashed. It wouldn't get up off the air. I mean, I had committed the unpardonable sin; right? Bob: Becoming a Christian's one thing / now, saying, “I want to be a pastor.” Dennis: “I'm all in.” Caleb: Well, and you throw on top of that, “Hey, I've changed my view of sexuality.” Bob: Right. Caleb: You know—I mean, now I'm one of them in their eyes. The people who were supposed to show me tolerance—they were showing my anything but tolerance. Dennis: How did you do, loving your mom in that situation? Caleb: It was difficult at first; but I got encouragement from my friends, saying, “Caleb, you need to love her no matter what.” I started reading the New Testament.  20:00 Whenever I had free time, I was reading, reading, reading, reading—especially the words of Jesus—and then moving on to Romans, so on and so forth. I really latched onto what Jesus said there and the mercy that He said, even in the beatitudes, when Jesus said, “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.” I cannot own how my mother treats me / I cannot own how somebody else reacts to me—what I can own is my own reactions—how I respond and what I do. That is what God holds me accountable to. I can own how I'm going to love people, no matter what / follow the example of Jesus, when He was hanging on the cross and He said: “Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.” Now, if the Son of God, who is innocent, could say that, after everything He was through, I'm pretty sure I could look at my mom and say: “I forgive you. I'm choosing every day not to hold this against you.” Dennis: I think you're ministering to some parents, who have children, who've come out and who have said, “I think I'm gay.”  21:00 I think you're also ministering to some family members, who may have been invited to a wedding of a relative in their family, where they're struggling with, “What's our response to be?” I think you're also ministering to folks, Caleb, who work in places, where they have close associates, whose lifestyles are different than theirs. You're exhorting all of us, regardless, to go back to the Book / back to the life of Christ and love others the way He loved us. Bob: Well, and I think your example helps there, too, and what you've shared with us of your own story, and what you share in your book, Messy Grace. I think that gives us a blueprint / a living illustration that we can follow and know how to engage with our friends or our family members. We have copies of Caleb's book, Messy Grace, in our FamilyLife Today Resource Center. You can go online to request your copy; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to order a copy of the book, Messy Grace.  22:00 Again, the website: FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-358-6329—that's 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” I know we probably have some of you, who are tuned in today because this is a holiday week for a lot of folks—people taking time off—and maybe some of you, who don't normally listen to FamilyLife Today, have been able to catch the program. We're glad that you joined us.  FamilyLife® is a non-profit organization. We exist to effectively develop godly marriages and families. We believe those godly marriages and families can change the world, one home at a time. This daily radio program is just one aspect of all that we do, here, at FamilyLife. All that we do, here, at FamilyLife is possible because friends, like you, make it possible. We are listener-supported; and your donations help cover, not only the cost of producing and syndicating this program, but all of the outreaches of FamilyLife. All that we're involved with couldn't happen without your support.  23:00 If you're a regular listener, and you've never made a donation, we'd love to have you join the team that supports this ministry. If you're a first-time listener, or a new listener, we hope you'll continue to tune in; and you can download the FamilyLife app from your app store. Just type in FamilyLife as one word and that will give you immediate access to our program every day, so you can listen to it on your time schedule. To donate, go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can donate online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to make a donation over the phone. You can always mail your donation to us as well. Our address is FamilyLife Today at PO Box 7111, Little Rock, AR; and our zip code is 72223. By the way, let me just say we believe that your first priority, when it comes to giving, needs to be your local church; so make sure that you're investing well there before you do anything to help support this ministry. 24:00 We hope you can join us back tomorrow when Caleb Kaltenbach will be here again. We're going to talk about how we should interact with friends, coworkers, neighbors—people who we know who identify as LGBT. How do we let them know who we are, and what we believe, and how do we build a relationship there? We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can tune in. I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas; a Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

Messy Grace (Part 1) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 2) - Kaleb KaltenbachMessy Grace (Part 3) - Kaleb KaltenbachFamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. Loving Our Gay Friends and Neighbors Guest:                         Caleb Kaltenbach                From the series:       Messy Grace (Day 3 of 3)  Bob: There is a right way and a wrong way for us to hold fast to biblical truth and still have healthy relationships with our LGBT friends. Caleb Kaltenbach offers an example of the wrong way to go about that.  Caleb: Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT. So, Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that he has to let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—but without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this gay man over here that, now, realized he's being treated like a project. He walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is—he has pushed this man further away from God.  Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, July 4th. Our host is Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  1:00 How can we represent Jesus well as we build healthy relationships with people who don't live like us, or think like us, or believe like us?  That's what we're going to talk about today. Stay with us.  And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Wednesday edition, here, on Independence Day in the United States. I'm guessing there are not many people in America we could talk to who grew up in a home where mom and dad got a divorce; mom moved in with her lesbian partner; dad remained a bachelor and later came out of the closet as a gay man; and where the son, who grew up in that situation, wound up going to Bible college, committing his life to fulltime ministry. I'm guessing that's a relatively unusual story.  Dennis: I'm guessing it is, too; but it's what makes this book, Messy Grace, a compelling read. I think this is a safe way for a mom/a dad, a husband/a wife, who is trying to figure out:  2:00 “How do I relate to people who don't believe like I do?”—this is a safe place to go read—and maybe something that some groups of people need to dig into and do a Bible study around—and just interact around these chapters; because I think what our guest on the show today has done is—he's invited all of us into his life / into a world we don't know a whole lot about.  By doing so, he's coaching us as the son of two gay moms / as the son of a father, who after divorcing his mom, came out as a homosexual as well. You know, I just think—as you said, Bob—there's not that many that can offer that kind of insight and coach us from that standpoint.  Caleb Kaltenbach joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Caleb, welcome back.  Caleb: Hey, it's great to be here.  Dennis: Bob gave a good overview of your life. He hit something kind of quickly that I want you to unpack for us. Your moms had thrown you out of the house when you said you were becoming a follower of Christ; your dad had done virtually the same.  3:00 What did they say when you said you wanted to go to a Bible school?   Caleb: Again, my mother's partner was a psychologist—a PhD / very smart. Both of my parents were university professors. When I told them that I wanted to go to a Bible college—and in their minds, a narrow-minded Bible college—it did not go over at all. They just said: “You're paying for everything on your own. You—there is no way we're going to help you out with it—nothing is going to happen there,” and “I can't believe that you would even consider that. You're going to wind up homeless on the street; and you're going to be eating ramen noodles your whole life, if you can afford those.”   Bob: But their view did soften over time, because one of them helped you get a loan; didn't they? Caleb: Yes; my dad eventually—because he saw that I was not backing down. It's part of my German stubbornness, I think—we don't back down too easily. I said, “This is what I'm doing, with or without my family, because I feel like God's call is that strong.”  4:00 I said, “I'm going forward with this.”  My dad eventually helped me to get my first loan—that's what they did for me. I spent my weekends preaching in small, country churches to earn money for college; washed dishes in the cafeteria; did everything I could; but I really cut my teeth in Bible college by preaching at a lot of small, country churches.  Dennis: How did they handle your background, or did you keep it a secret from them?   Caleb: No; because I wanted people to know what they were getting into. I remember the first church I ever preached in was in Kansas—small town. We had six people in the church—the youngest one was 60. They wanted to start a youth group—it was going to be a youth group of 40-year-olds. [Laughter]  I told them about my background, and they didn't like that too much.  The second church I was at—I was there for about 18 months. It was in Missouri, and I was near a town called Nevada—[first “a” is long]. It should be called Nevada—[same pronunciation as the state]—but everybody called it Nevada [long “a”] in Missouri. It was near Fort Scott, Kansas. I preached there for 18 months.  5:00 Twenty-five people in the church / fifty people in the town—we were the largest church, per capita, in the world at the time, at best.  Bob: Yes; right.  Dennis: Right.  Caleb: I kind of eased into the conversation about my parents, then; but there was one Sunday that was very, very profound to them. I kept on asking my mom to come to church with me to hear me preach. I was only, I think, at that time, a junior or a sophomore in college. I'd only had one preaching class at my Bible college, and I just really—that's how I learned how to preach.  My mom finally came with me. She wouldn't come back the next Sunday; but it was a good thing because I got there—and there were two elders waiting for me on the front doorstep—they said, “Caleb, we'd like to talk to you.”  They took me to the back room—there were really only two rooms / there was a front room, and there was a back room. They looked at me; and they said, “If you want to keep preaching here, don't you ever bring somebody like your mother again.”   I was floored. I said, “Excuse you?”  They basically said: “We don't like those kinds of people. They make us feel uncomfortable.  6:00 “We are not a church that feels comfortable with these people.”  So, I said, “I quit!”  They said: “Well, you can't quit today. You need to preach.”  I said: “No, no, no, no. Out of all the things you want me to do today, preaching should not be one of them—trust me.”  “No; we need you to preach.”   I ripped up my sermon, and I preached an evangelistic message. I walked out; I got in my car; and I drove away. I said, “Lord, if You ever give me the chance to be able to lead a church—steward it with that opportunity—I want a church that is filled with people who are broken, because that's what the church is.” The church is really a beautiful mosaic of broken lives that God has united together to glorify Himself. Jesus did not die on the cross for a little members-only country club that's really a Pharisee factory—that's not what He did!  He died on the cross for broken people, because only God can put broken people back together.  Dennis: I have to wonder, Caleb, what the homosexual community thinks about you when they hear these stories.  7:00 Obviously, they are going to give you more “grace” / more freedom to speak. But does this gain you favor with them?—that you are speaking of them as they ought to be spoken of—people who are made in the image of God?   Caleb: I think it does. I try to go a little bit further than that to help Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there's always going to be a line with me and the LGBT community; because, at the end of the day, I believe God's Word is true. I believe in the covenant of marriage—that is always going to be there, so that's the line that will never be crossed.  But I think there is a respect there. I've been told by several people in the community that my book has a very gracious tone to it, and they appreciate that. I think they can't argue with the experience, but I try to get a lot of Christians to understand the LGBT community. I think there are some in the LGBT community that really appreciate this, because I remember a conversation I had with my mom one time.  8:00 My mom—I don't know how we got in this conversation—but she said, “You know, Caleb, in the last several years in my relationship with Vera, we were not intimate at all.”   You know, first of all, gross!  I mean, I don't want to hear that from my mom; but I immediately looked at her and I said: “So, you're not a lesbian anymore. You haven't been intimate for years.”  And she said: “Well, sure I am!  Those are my people. I have relationships there. I'm part of a community. I'm part of a cause and a movement. I have grace there.”  I said, “Well, Mom, you just described the church.”  And she said: “No, I didn't. Why would I go somewhere that would make me feel less about myself?”   It really dawned on me that, for my mom—she never identified as a lesbian or with the LGBT community because of who she wanted to be intimate with. I mean, even in the ever-growing acronym of the LGBTQQIIAA—I think the last “A” now stands for ally, where you can identify with the LGBT community and still be straight at the same time— 9:00 —because I think the primary thing there for a lot of people is no longer: “This is whom I want to have sex with,”—now, it is: “Who are the people that I identify with?”  It really has become more of a philosophy and an ideology.  Here's where a lot of Christians will misstep—I want to be careful not to say, “mistake,”— but they will do things out of order. Somebody named Joe will meet somebody in their workplace, who identifies as LGBT—like a gay a man. Joe becomes his friend. Joe thinks that, you know, he has to, at some point, let him know about Leviticus, and Genesis 19, and Ephesians 5, and Romans 1—and we'll throw in 1 Corinthians 6—which, I believe all those chapters, completely / I believe them, word for word—I believe they are true.  But without building a relationship and getting to know him, all of a sudden, he will throw all these verses at this man. This gay man over here, who thought he was getting a new friend, now, realized he has been treated like a project; and he walks away, rejecting everything / feeling wounded. Joe walks away, feeling like some kind of accomplished martyr; but really, what Joe has done is— 10:00 —he has pushed this man further away from God. Dennis: Yes.  Caleb: Here is the other thing—Joe is telling him, “Hey, do not define yourself by your sexual orientation.”  But when Joe thinks, “Hey, the most important thing I've got to address first is ‘Who you want to be intimate with?'”—you have just reduced them down to their sexual orientation. The irony is—you have done to them what you've asked them not to do to themselves.  I think that, as we get to know people—no matter who they are / no matter what kind of life choice they might be in—when we get to know them—and I believe that God gives opportunity for us to have difficult conversations in the context of trust and relationship—I really believe that. I believe that, if we think deeper about LGBT community / if we think deeper about this—to where, for them, it is an identity—and we say: “Okay; instead of trying to fix you—I'll leave that up to God—I'll point you to the cross, and tell you the truth; but I'm going to help you identify with Jesus, first and foremost.”  11:00  He's pretty good at life change.  Dennis: And you are going to offer a community to them.  Caleb: Absolutely; because we have to bring them over to our community, because nobody is going to leave one community if they don't feel like another community is safe.  Dennis: Yes; it truly is an alternative lifestyle that is worth it though.  Caleb: Yes; it is.  Bob: When you brought your mom to church and she heard you preach, what was the conversation like after that on the way home?   Caleb: She was very affirming. My mom has always been affirming of me—she's always been a big fan of me. So— Bob: “You're a good speaker.”   Caleb: Yes; “You're a good speaker.”  I think she looks at me as some kind of civil rights leader or something like that; you know?   Bob: You've got good things to say / you're calling people to justice—that kind of thing?   Caleb: Absolutely.  Bob: There did come a time, though, where she started to soften to the message that you were preaching; right?   Caleb: Yes; well, actually, there were two times. The first time was when I eventually graduated from Bible college.  12:00 I moved to Southern California; I lived out there for 11 years and worked at a church called Shepherd Church / Shepherd of the Hill Church. She came out, and she visited our multi-site campus one Sunday.  When she heard the message, afterwards—it was funny—we were driving down [Hwy.] 101. We were almost—both of us a fatality; because she said, “I think I might be closer to accepting Christ.”  When she said that, I just—I don't know what happened—I just lost control of the steering wheel. We went into the other lane. People started honking. I led my mom to cuss, at that point, by accident because she was afraid; but it was just such a unique experience. [Laughter] That was not the point that she accepted Christ; but she was softening, and she was getting to the point at that juncture in her life.  Bob: So, what was the second time?   Caleb: I got married in 2004—a beautiful Latina woman—she is this gorgeous lady. [Laughter]  13:00 Finally, I wanted to preach after 11 years. We moved to Dallas, Texas, to go pastor a church. When we moved there, both of my parents, separately of one another, moved there to be closer to our family. I had never really lived in like a five-mile radius of my parents since I was two; but then, my parents floored me when they said, “Can we start attending your church?”   Dennis: independent of each other.  Caleb: Yes; independent!  They both started attending my church, and it was fascinating. What was even more annoying is that my church treated them better than I did—they loved my parents. This was a catalyst for my parents to come closer to Jesus, because they finally were around a group of people that treated them like people and not like evangelistic projects—it was huge.  So, then— Dennis: I want to stop there because we had Rosaria Butterfield on FamilyLife Today, and she instructed our listeners, as well as Bob and me, how important hospitality is to the homosexual community.  14:00 That sounds like what happened in your church in Dallas—how they invited your mom and dad into community and into their homes to be able to relate to them and get to know them.  Caleb: Absolutely, and I think that we should do that with everybody, period, in our churches. I mean, if you invite somebody over to your house, you know what? You're going to treat them like a guest—you're going to extend hospitality to them. At our church, every Sunday, we're always expecting guests from all walks of life; and we have people from all walks of life.  You know, not everybody at my church in Dallas was excited about it, but there were quite a few who were; so, the summer of 2013, we had an opportunity to move back to Simi Valley—it was my wife's hometown; she loves it there; we have a lot of friends there. We love Southern California. My wife loves Disneyland—loves Disneyland. So, we moved back.  Two weeks before we moved back, both my parents gave their lives to the Lord—both of them—  Bob: —independent of one another?   15:00 Caleb: —independent of one another.  Dennis: You've got to share how that happened. I mean, there is too much of a drama here and too much of a history—not to just say: “Here's what my mom did,” “Here's what my dad did.”  Caleb: I remember talking with my mom; and she had been in a hospital, because she was having some health issues. She had been praying with a lot of people. She said, “Caleb, I believe that I'm a Christian.”  We talked about it, and I talked to her about what she believed. I really believe, with all my heart, that she was and that she still is a Christian.  Now, does she believe everything that I believe, theologically?  No; she doesn't. Does she believe the fundamentals—the orthodoxy?  Yes; she does. Is she still working out her salvation with fear and trembling / the sanctification process?—absolutely. God is working that in her. There is a lot of emotional hurt and pain, throughout the years, that she has to tread through; but I truly believe that she is saved.  Bob: I think you raise an important point, which is:  16:00 “When somebody comes to faith, and when they do affirm the essentials of the faith, they come in with a background / with a story—with a lot of things that may have to get worked through. We need to be patient, and let people process, and let them learn from the Word of God / by the Spirit of God things that it may have taken us a while to learn.”   Caleb: I tell our congregation all the time—and actually, I had a meeting with different leaders the weekend before my book released, Messy Grace. I remember in this meeting, I told our volunteers, and our leaders, and our staff, and our elder team the same thing that I say on Sunday morning—I said: “Hey, at this church, we give people margin in their lives to experience God. We don't expect people to automatically get their act together when they start attending after the third week, or the fourth week, or the fifth week.  “We need to give that margin, not only for them, but also for God; because here's the deal—salvation is instantaneous; but usually, it's a process for people to get to that point; and sanctification is a process— 17:00 Bob: Right.  Caleb: —“of God tearing down our prideful walls and making us more into His image. So, we give God margin to work His process.”    It's not that we don't have tough conversations; it's not that we don't do church discipline when that has to be done; but there's—everybody in our church is taking their next step with Jesus somewhere.  Bob: What about your dad?  What was his story?   Caleb: I was over at his house—his apartment, actually—and I remember I was helping him sort through some books. Unfortunately, now, my dad has Alzheimer's. He actually lives closer with us in Simi Valley; but back then, Alzheimer's was setting in, but I hadn't seen it yet. My dad has always been a little disorganized, but I was helping sort through some books.  As we were just sitting there, talking and sorting through books, my dad said: “Caleb, I know I would go to church every now and then”—at the Episcopal Church—“but more than ever, now, I think I see that Jesus really does love me.  18:00 “I just feel that I have a different relationship with Him. I honestly believe that I believe in Him, and my whole relationship is at another level. I really believe that I'm saved.”   I remember hearing that from my dad, again, and thinking to myself, “You've got to be kidding me!” I mean, this is the guy that grounded me when I got baptized / that kicked me out of the house. This is the guy that made fun of me for believing in Christianity because it was illogical—it was not rational; it did not fit his materialistic/physical-focused worldview—and now, completely shift.  Here is a big lesson I learned from that, guys. I learned that people base so much of their view of who God is and who Jesus is off how we treat them. I learned that because, when my parents were around people who treated them like people and not like projects— 19:00 —and really lived out what Jesus says in Matthew 5:46—and actually, 43-48—and what Jesus said in Luke 6:35, when He says: “Hey, love your enemies. Do good. Lend to them, because God is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. Be merciful as your heavenly Father is merciful.”   You know, I'm thinking about that. It's in those moments—when people experience God working through us—they see maybe Jesus is different. If I'm going to be honest—when I was sitting in that Bible study in high school, and sitting around and engaging, and when they really knew that I was not saved, their tone changed with me. When their tone changed with me, they became more caring; and when they became more caring and treated me differently, something happened in my heart—something happened.  Bob: Can I just read the verses that you referenced?—Matthew, Chapter 5, starting in verse 43—    20:00 —Jesus says: “You have heard it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'  But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good; sends the rain on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?  Do not even the tax collectors do the same?  And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others?  Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”   That's strong stuff for all of us to hear, but that's what God's calling us to; isn't it?   Caleb: Especially when you think of the first century—that Jesus was probably referring to Roman soldiers when He said, “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”— 21:00 —“Love the people who have killed your family. Love the people who have killed your brother, and love the occupying force.”  We have trouble loving other politicians in this country.  Dennis: Caleb, we're going to come back after Bob tells listeners how they can get a copy of the book, but here is your assignment—I'm going to ask you to seat your mom and your dad across the table from you and to fulfil the Fifth Commandment. I'm going to ask you to honor and speak a tribute to both of them for what they did do right. Are you willing to do that?   Caleb: Absolutely, because they did do a lot right.  Bob: Let me just mention that the book that you've written, Caleb, is called Messy Grace. It tells your story of growing up in the family you grew up in and how you Learned to Love Others Without Sacrificing Conviction—that's the subtitle of the book. I think it's a helpful book for all of us. You can go to our website, FamilyLifeToday.com, to order a copy. Again, the website is FamilyLifeToday.com.  Dennis—   Dennis: Well, Caleb, you've had a few minutes to think about addressing your mom and your dad and giving them both a tribute.  22:00 Speak to them both, if you would please, in the first person.  Caleb: Mom and Dad, I would not be who I am without you. You've instilled in me a sense of justice / a pursuit of those who are different and not like me. You've instilled in me a love of academics, education, logical thinking. You've instilled in me love. Even through the tough moments, there was never a moment when I ever doubted that you loved me. Even through the tough moments of moving from house to house, I never doubted for a second that you loved me. I know that you love me, still, to this day.  I know that God, in His sovereignty, allowed all of this to happen; and I know that this can be the best season of all three of our lives if we trust God in whatever season that we are in.  23:00 I want you to know that, despite what you may feel that you have done wrong or I have, I'm extremely proud / enormously proud to be your son.  I also want you to know that for any pain, throughout the years, that I may have caused you, especially in my religious fervor when I first came to Christ, I apologize for that. As I process through the emotions of learning what it is to follow Christ, and trying to love you, and walking this delicate balance between grace and truth and this tension, I'm sorry if you ever got hurt. I'm sorry for the times that I didn't know how to handle my emotions correctly, because I am not a perfect person; but I know that Satan meant to disrupt and destroy our lives / God allowed it to happen to save lives.  24:00 I truly believe that through both of your lives—even though both of them were painful, even from childhood to now—I truly believe that God is using your lives and this story—which is not just mine / it's yours—to help people for such a time as this because people need help. With the suicide rate of gay teenagers rising, parents need to know how to love; teenagers need to know truth. You have become a clay pot that God is using and shining light on.  Thank you for being you and loving me. I love you so much.  Bob: FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife® of Little Rock, Arkansas; A Cru® Ministry. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.  We are so happy to provide these transcripts to you. However, there is a cost to produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?   Copyright © 2018 FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com  

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. The Deadly Traps of Adolescence Day 6 of 10 Guest:                        Dennis and Barbara Rainey From the series:       Dating  Bob:                If you're the parent of a teenager, you may have noticed that your son or daughter during the teenage years is paying a lot more attention to members of the opposite sex.  Barbara Rainey says you need to parent with a strategy in mind. Barbara:         What we're trying to do through these years of junior high, but particularly high school, is to help our kids see what it is they're looking for in a person to marry.  What are the standards they want?  What are the criteria that they would like to be there?  What are the values that they would like for this person to hold?  So we begin talking about those kinds of things and helping them begin to think, "What's best for me?  What does God want me to have someday in a mate?"                         We've tried to teach our kids that the best way to find out those kinds of things is through having a friendship with another person, it's not through a dating relationship where everybody is on their best behavior; you only see each other in ideal situations and circumstances, but rather we're trying to train our kids to observe one another in ordinary situations. Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  As long as your teens are noticing members of the opposite sex, make sure they're looking for the right stuff.                          And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  One of my all-time favorite movies is one that I know a lot of people have seen – the movie "The Princess Bride."  You know, there's a scene in that movie where Wesley and the princess are moving through the forest, and I forget whether she falls into the quicksand first, I think she does, and then he falls into the quicksand or dives in to pull her out.  But nobody saw the quicksand as they were walking through the forest.  She just, all of a sudden, fell right into that trap.                         And I was thinking about that movie when I was thinking about what we talked about last week and what we're going to be talking about this week, and that is the traps that are in the middle of the forest that our teenagers are walking through.                         In your book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," you outline a number of traps that have been laid out for teenagers, and, by the way, Barbara Rainey is joining us this week on our program as well and, Barbara, we're glad to have you here.                         As parents, we need to be guiding our children on their journey through the dark forest because we know where the traps are.  We've been down this road before, and we can point out the spots to them to avoid so that they don't become ensnared. Dennis:          You know, it is interesting – we do know where the traps are.  We were all teenagers.  We experienced it, we experienced the peer pressure, we experienced the temptations of dating, and yet isn't it fascinating that parents can just kind of stick their head in the sand, and we can say, "Well, kids will be kids.  They can just kind of make it on their own."                         When we do that, we set our children up to get their marching orders from peers, from the world, from the culture, or from the enemy, and if I understand the scriptures correctly, we, as parents, are to form a partnership with God – Psalm 127:1 talks about the "the Lord building the house."                           And the person who ignores the Lord labors in vain, and what we've got to do, as parents, is we've got to seek the Lord, determine what we believe around these issues, and then begin to take some courageous stands, and what we're talking about here is radical, radical stuff with teenagers. You're not going to be voted in as the most popular with your teenagers as you raise them, but you know what?  You're not running a popularity contest.  You're a parent, I'm a parent, and I don't want my children to hate me, I want my children to love me but, more than that, I want our children to grow up to become God's man and God's woman, and that may mean for a period of time, whether it be a few hours, a few days, maybe a few months – that child may not like Dad very well. Bob:                Barbara, last week we talked about the trap of peer pressure that our children have to navigate around; we talked about sexual intimacy, and its inappropriateness outside of marriage; and then we began talking about the subject of dating, and you all have developed some strong convictions in this area with your children that are a little bit out of sync with the culture, but they're things you feel passionate about. Barbara:         Yes, we've decided for our kids that we want to protect them from getting involved in exclusive relationships that are going to stir up their emotions and potentially get them involved physically and sexually with the opposite sex, and we know that's not healthy.  So in order to protect our kids, we've sort of redefined dating for our family.  We've set some different standards for our kids in hopes that in the outcome our kids will be protected, and they'll be pure, and they'll be holy. Dennis:          The conviction we're talking about here is that, as parents, we have the responsibility and the authority to set the rules and boundaries for our children.                           I'm going to say that again – we have the responsibility and the authority to set the rules and boundaries for our children.                           The culture doesn't, the youth group doesn't – and I know I could get into trouble there – the youth group needs to reinforce, I believe, the standards of the family.  That's the way it was intended to work.  I think it needs to hold the standard up, call us to that, but I think it needs to be reinforcing what's being taught at home. I don't think the youth group ought to be a surrogate parent for the child.  I don't think the schools ought to be setting the boundaries or the rules for children.  I don't think they've got the responsibility.  I don't think they have the morality.  I don't think they've got the standards, and even the Christian schools aren't going to do it the way parents are.   And so who owns it?  Who's got to have it?  We do, as parents, and we have got to decide, first of all, what we believe as a family, and you may disagree with what we're talking about here on the air, and you know what?  I want to give you the freedom to disagree with us.  That's wonderful.   My boomerang question to you if you disagree with us is – what, then, do you believe?  What are your standards?  What will you uphold with your son or with your daughter … Bob:                … and what's the source of those standards? Dennis:          That's exactly right.  Is it the scripture or is it tainted by the world, and too often, I'll tell you, with us it's been one long process of kind of eradicating how we have been conformed, as a family, to the world's standards. Bob:                But you know what you're talking about – parents having the responsibility and the authority to be parents is so true.  I remember just recently, we were having a discussion with one of our children, and we said, "You know what, honey?  God has given us the assignment of deciding what you can and can't do.  It's our responsibility to determine that." Dennis:          That's a novel thought, isn't it? Bob:                We said, "We have to do what we think is right in this area."  And you could tell that this particular child didn't really like the answer but couldn't argue with it very much.  And then later I had an opportunity to overhear my child talking to a peer, and the child just repeated back what we had said, but it was kind of like, "This is what my parents think" … Dennis:          … "I don't buy it" … Bob:                … "I'm not sure I'm buying it," but at least you could tell that something had kind of sunk in. Dennis:          You know, this is another apologetic for the Bible.  We have several listeners who tune in regularly to FamilyLife Today who aren't Christians yet, and I'd just turn to you – if you haven't received Christ, and you've not called upon Him to save you from your sins and developed a relationship with God, show me a better way than this book to connect with God and to connect a family, heart-to-heart and soul-to-soul, and to navigate these traps.                           The Bible is the guidebook for helping us handle these issues.  This book is what has given us the boundaries and the rules we're talking about here, and what are you waiting for?  I mean, now is the day to cry out to Christ and have him become your Savior and Lord and get on with the process of making him the builder of your home.                         Frankly, Bob, I wonder how anybody can raise a family in this culture and help teenagers through all these traps without having a relationship with the Lord God Almighty. Bob:                Let me just say at this point – if that concept, if that thought, is something you've been struggling with or wrestling with – if you're wondering about what it means to have a relationship with Christ, we want you to call us.  We've got material we'll send you at no cost to you … Dennis:          … absolutely. Bob:                We just want to get it to you and trust that will be a help to you as you weigh out what the Bible says about how we're to be rightly related with God and with one another.                         Barbara, we talked last week about the fact that you're really encouraging your children not to date someone exclusively during the time they're in high school.  At the same time, though, you're training them for a time when they will begin to notice a particular person and begin to wonder – might this be the person that God would have for me to marry?  What are you doing in helping to prepare them for that moment? Barbara:         Well, what we're trying to do through these years of junior high, but particularly high school, is to help our kids see what it is they're looking for in a person to marry?  What are the standards they want?  What are the criteria that they would like to be there?  What are the values that they would like for this person to hold?                           So we begin talking about those kinds of things and helping them begin to think – what am I looking for?  What's best for me?  What does God want me to have some day in a mate?  And we've tried to teach our kids that the best way to find out those kinds of things is through having a friendship with another person, it's not through a dating relationship where everybody is on their best behavior, you only see each other in ideal situations and circumstances.                         But rather we're trying to train our kids to observe one another in ordinary situations so that our girls see these Christian guys – they see them at youth group, they see them at church, they see them on retreats, they see them at school, they see them with their parents, and as we do things as groups with our kids, our family, and a bunch of other families, they can watch how each other acts, how they respond, what they do, what their choices are, and that's a better indication of what that person is really like than what you see on a high-performance date. Bob:                And, Dennis, what are you encouraging them to look for as they watch these young men and young women? Dennis:          Well, I think the Scriptures are very, very clear where some of the fundamentals are.  First of all, in 2 Corinthians, chapter 6, verses 14 through the end of the chapter, Paul writes that we're not to be "unequally yoked with unbelievers."  He asked, "What do righteousness and unrighteousness have in common?  What does light and darkness have in common?"  And the answer is nothing.                           We want our children to even be able to distinguish between that young man or that young lady who profess Christ and that young man or young lady who are followers of Christ.                         Our churches today, unfortunately, are filled with many who profess to be followers of Christ but in reality they're just professing Christ, and you wonder if they even know Him at all, because their lives are not marked by the fruit that Jesus spoke of, of those who would be His true followers.                          And we want our children to have friendships with the opposite sex who are committed Christians, who are growing Christians, and who are concerned about their own spiritual walk with Christ. Bob:                And you saw this, Barbara, lived out with Ashley as she went away to college and started to look around and started to wonder about some of the young men. Barbara:         Right, and there was a sense in which, when we took Ashley to college, and even our boys, for that matter, that they automatically had some freedom that they didn't have when they were living at home because we weren't there to oversee who they spent time with and oversee who they would even date – go out with and spend time with alone.                          But we continued to coach them from a distance and encourage them, and then as we watched Ashley go through college, she began to just – by the time she was halfway through, sometime between sophomore and junior year, she just thought, you know, I don't want to mess with this dating stuff anymore.  I mean, she had learned on her own that it just wasn't worth it, and she decided she was just going to be content being single as long as God wanted her to be single, and she came to that conviction on her own.   And so for the next year and a half or so, she just hung out with groups of kids and did things with her Christian friends and, in the process of that, got to know a young man very well as a friend, and neither one of them ever thought of anything of the other beyond just a friendship.  They both viewed each other as a very good friend, and it was because they had made the decision not to pursue a romantic relationship.  And so, therefore, that was out of the question, and it never entered in. So they began this friendship and continued to be friends for two years, and then they decided at a point that maybe God wanted them to have more than a friendship and then the process went on where they eventually decided to get engaged and married.  But that marriage came out of a friendship, and it was encouraging to see God use that in her life – where she saw him in all kinds of situations – good, bad, and ugly, and otherwise – and so she really knew what she was getting.  She didn't see him only on his best behavior and only performing perfectly on dating kinds of situations, and so she knew what she was walking into. Bob:                Last week we talked about some of the restrictions that you put on children about group activities and double dating, what age, what level of maturity they need to be in – what about things like phone calls from guys or phone calls to guys or young men pursuing young women via the telephone? Barbara:         Or how about e-mail? Bob:                Oh, yeah, e-mail. Barbara:         Oh, yeah.  Well, we have really had to regulate telephone, and now we are regulating e-mail, because we've discovered that even though our kids may not have an established official relationship, an exclusive relationship with the opposite sex, they can, nonetheless, develop an emotionally dependent relationship over the phone by spending – if they have unlimited phone privileges, they could spend an hour on the phone every night with somebody and be sharing their heart, be sharing their dreams or their fears or their frustrations or difficulties that they're going through and elicit sympathy and compassion from the other person and they go, "Gosh, this person really understands me, so I can maybe tell them some more," and so these doors just open wider and wider to the soul of the other person.  So they just begin this give-and-take over the phone, and they become attached emotionally over the phone. Dennis:          And this happens a lot.  I mean, children are so needy, it seems, today, as teenagers, they latch onto each other and meet each other at this point of need.  One young man was doing this with one of our daughters, and so I told my daughter, I'm going to need to talk to him on the phone.  And she said, "Why?"  And I said, "Because he's calling frequently, and this is a relationship even though he doesn't even live in our community.  I need to talk to him."                           So I got on the phone, and he nearly fainted.  I mean, he really was scared, and we talked about that a little bit and laughed about that, and then I said, "You know, I just want you to develop a friendship with my daughter, and I really don't want you to send gifts, I don't want you to send romantic notes over here," and a few additional things, and I just kind of built some boundaries around it and asked him to honor that as her dad.                          And it wasn't long after that, Bob, that I noticed on the e-mail that we have at home that there was this note to this child, and so I read the note, and this young man that I had talked to over the phone wasn't honoring what I asked him to do.  I sent a very blunt, pointed, loving e-mail with the return button.  It was interesting – a couple of days later the young man wrote me back, and he said, "Thank you, Mr. Rainey."                         Now, let me just say a couple of things to parents at this point.  When you step in like this, don't assume that just because the young man or the young lady agrees with you, that they're on your side.  Don't just roll off the watermelon truck like a watermelon. Barbara:         "Oh, I've done that one.  It's taken care of now." Dennis:          Oh, yeah, Dad's done a good one to that.  We've headed that one off at the pass.  Wrong.  Huh-uh, Dad has got to realize you've got a young man who likes your daughter, and you've got to track, and you've got stay involved, and you've got to watch what's happening, and you know what?  At Valentine's Day there was a stuffed animal in the mail.  Hello.                         So, you know, as parents, you've just got to keep on repeating yourself and teaching and hanging in there and staying involved in your children's lives and resist the temptation to back out of there and to not stay involved and to give them too much freedom before they need it. Bob:                What rules have you come up with for telephone or for e-mail use?  What are your standards in that area? Barbara:         Well, our girls are not allowed to call boys, first of all.  We really have tried to teach them that guys are the ones who need to take the initiative in a relationship.  So the first rule for our girls is they don't call boys – any way for any reason.                           And then the next rule is that they just get so many minutes a night on the phone, and our rules are after dinner and after homework is done.  So, generally, unless they're trying to get their homework done, and they've got to get the answer, or they didn't get the assignment, all that kind of stuff – there are always exceptions on homework kinds of issues – but, primarily, if they're going to call somebody just to visit and chat and just kill some time on the phone, that doesn't occur until after dinner and after all homework is done, and that's usually, in our family, at least 7:00 at night before that happens.                          And then they have to be off the phone by 9.  So there's kind of a two-hour window, and with multiple people in the home wanting to use the phone, they can't have a very long chunk of time.  We just really don't let our girls chat on the phone endlessly for hours on end.  It just isn't productive.  Dennis:          And the Internet would be approached in a similar fashion.  You wouldn't let your child spend endless hours on the Internet in chat rooms with the opposite sex, nor would you send back and forth a number of e-mails each day or each week.                           I think it needs to be limited, and basically what you're doing is you're creating some boundaries to protect your child's heart from forming exclusive, romantic dating relationships.  That's the conviction.  That's the thing you're protecting with your son or with your daughter. Bob:                You talk about parents being right in the middle of things, and our listeners have heard you talk about being right in the middle of things as you have interviewed any young man who has come as a suitor for your daughter before you've let them even go out on a double or a triple date or go to the prom together, right? Dennis:          Yeah, I've got about eight questions that I ask in an interview of a young man, and these eight questions are now being replicated in hundreds of dads' lives across the country.                           In fact, Bob, I just talked to a dad in San Marcos, Texas – in fact, it's the brother of Mike McCoy, who was on the broadcast one time – Brian McCoy just interviewed his daughter Megan's first date, and it was so funny, because Brian said, "I sat behind my desk, and I wanted the most intimidating situation I could get.  I made him sit at the other side," and then he said, "I kind of caved in a little bit and asked him, 'Are you nervous?'" And the young man said "Yeah," and he said, "Well, I am, too.  We're going to get through this together."                          And they went through the interview, and I asked Brian at the end of the time, I said, "Tell me this – when you were driving home to see your daughter, did you feel like you had been a man's man in protecting your daughter?"  And he said, "Absolutely, absolutely."  And you know what?  His daughter thoroughly enjoyed the fact that her dad would look out for her by interviewing a young man who had come a-calling at the door. Bob:                You have recently written a book on this subject, a guidebook for dads to help all of us know how we can engage in that process – the questions we can ask, how we can interview a young man who wants to take our daughter out on a date and, in fact, this month we're making copies of that book available to any of our listeners who can help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount.                         We're a listener-supported ministry, and so those donations are critical for the ongoing work of FamilyLife Today, and we want to invite any of our listeners who can help with a donation to either call 1-800-FLTODAY, or go online at FamilyLife.com.  Make a donation of any amount, and when you do, if you're calling, just ask for a copy of Dennis's new book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date," or if you're filling out the donation form online, just write the word "date" in the keycode box that you see there, and we'll be happy to send you a copy of this book as a way of saying thank you for your financial support of the ministry.  We do appreciate your partnership with us here on FamilyLife Today.                         And when you get in touch with us, let me also encourage you to consider getting a copy of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," where you also address this same subject along with a number of other issues facing us as parents of teenagers.  You help us be ready for the kinds of issues that are going to come up during the teen years.                           In fact, I think the perfect time to be reading a book like "Parenting Today's Adolescent," is when your son or daughter is still 8 or 9 or 10 or 11 or 12 years old, in those years that you've referred to as "the golden years," because that's when we need to develop convictions and be proactive and be alert and be ready to face the challenges that are going to come during the teen years.                         And, of course, we've got copies of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent," in our FamilyLife Resource Center and listeners who don't have a copy and who are interested in getting one can go to our website, FamilyLife.com.  If you click the red button that you see right in the middle of the screen that says "Go," that will take you to the area of the site where you can get more information about this book.                         You can order it online, if you'd like, or you can call us at 1-800-FLTODAY and ask for a copy of the book.  Again, the website is FamilyLife.com, and the toll-free number is 1-800-358-6329.  Someone on our team can make arrangements to have a copy of the book, "Parenting Today's Adolescent" sent out to you and I'll just mention again, if you're able to help with a donation, in addition to that, we'll be happy to send you a copy of Dennis's book, "Interviewing Your Daughter's Date."  We do appreciate your financial support of this ministry.   Well, tomorrow we're going to talk about another trap that faces our otnrs today.  In fact, this is not just a trap for teens but a trap that all of us are facing – it's the way media is influencing our lives.  And we're not saying that because you have access to media it's necessarily a trap, but it could be.  We'll talk about that tomorrow.  I hope you can be back with us for that.  I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team.  On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine.  Have a great day, and we'll see you back tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.  FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas, a ministry of Campus Crusade for Christ. _______________________________________________________________We are so happy to provide these transcripts for you. However, there is a cost to transcribe, create, and produce them for our website. If you've benefited from the broadcast transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs?Copyright © FamilyLife. All rights reserved. www.FamilyLife.com                 

To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.comIrishfest- https://www.irishfestlacrosse.orgRiverfest- https://riverfestlacrosse.comRotary Lights- https://www.rotarylights.orgCountry Boom- https://www.countryboom.comBob: I’ve lived in La Crosse since 1992, and I’ve had the opportunity to do a lot of different things. One of the persons I’m pleased to know is Mr. Festival. Those of you who don’t know who Mr. Festival is, it’s Pat Stephens. Pat is involved in everything – well, almost everything. Pat, thanks for being on with us this month for the Great River Road Podcast. Tell me about some of the things you’re involved in.Pat: Well, in the summer months, of course, you have Riverfest, which is right on the Mississippi River in Riverside Park in La Crosse. It’s always a huge success [and] a lot of fun – [it’s] a great family festival as well. That’s followed just a couple weeks later with Country Boom that’s held at Maple Grove Country Club just outside of La Crosse. That’s growing significantly. [There are] probably 20,000 to 25,000 people in attendance out there. It’s a great country [music] fest. We get into August, and then we’ve got Irishfest. It’s a little bit better and more improved each and every year, so that keeps us busy. Oktoberfest comes around at the end of September, then we take a little break as we get into Rotary Lights, [which is] the largest holiday display in the Midwest. It starts the day after Thanksgiving. There’s never a dull moment.Bob: I was going to say, what do you do in your spare time, Pat? Is there such a thing as spare time when it comes to being Pat Stephens?Pat: Not really, because beyond the festivals there’s a whole host of other community things that I try to take a leadership role with as well, so there’s never a dull moment.Bob: How did you get involved with helping out the community?Pat: I think it all started back in high school. I was very active and involved in all sorts of clubs and organizations, and [I was] class president and all those sorts of things. When I got to the University of [Wisconsin]-La Crosse as a student, I immediately got involved with one of the social fraternities, Delta Sigma Phi. We got extremely involved with things on campus, with student government, with getting a fraternity house and putting on a couple concerts on campus as well. It just kind of carried over after we graduated so we could continue that involvement.Bob: What do you like best about living on the Wisconsin Great River Road?Pat: Oh, my goodness. I drove back from the Twin Cities yesterday and took the Great River Road on the Wisconsin side. When we went up for the weekend, we went on the Minnesota side, which is also very beautiful. I had my two older sisters with me in the car, and they had never been on the Great River Road while in the Milwaukee area, so they just tremendously enjoyed it. We stopped in a lot of the small towns. The people are friendly. The architecture that some of those towns have maintained is simply beautiful. The water is always something to watch. They were so fascinated with the barge traffic, which they had never seen, either. You just kind of take it for granted as a daily activity.Bob: Let’s kind of look at that a little bit, because I think a lot of people that don’t live in this beautiful area where we live don’t tend to know what they’re missing.Pat: There is nothing like it. I enjoy driving people who come to La Crosse for the first time. It’s amazing how many people on the east side of the state have never discovered Wisconsin’s western coast. They get over here, and generally they’re in awe of the bluffs, the river, [and] the beautiful forests that we have. And of course, we have all sorts of amenities in our areas using the rivers: canoeing, kayaking, the bike trails, the hiking trails. There’s a lot to offer over here. That’s why we call it home.Bob: How do people get involved in some of the festivals that you’re involved in as Mr. Festival?Pat: Usually your ambassadors, your current volunteers are your best recruiters. They have the best networking to get friends and family involved. It’s something that they themselves enjoy. In addition to that, of course, all of the festivals have websites. And I think to my knowledge, all of the websites have a place to put comments if you’d like to volunteer and help with a particular cause.

How introverted are Dr. Kirk and Bob? Let's see. What is introversion exactly? The Psychology In Seattle Podcast. June 18, 2019.Email: Contact@PsychologyInSeattle.comAccess archive at: https://psychologyinseattle.squarespace.comBecome a patron of our podcast by going to https://www.patreon.com/PsychologyInSeattleMusic by Bread Knife Incident.

Episode 2 of the Wisconsin Great River Road Microcast features Raptor Resource Project execuitive director John Howe.Bob: Why are we all fascinated with the bald eagle?John: It’s our national symbol. I think the thing that draws people in and they’re so interested in the details of the eagle is that people typically see bald eagles and you see them flying way up in the air, you might see a nest or you might see them perched along the river. Bob: John Howe is the Executive Director of the Raptor Resource Project. John, what is that? What is the Raptor Resource Project?John: The Raptor Resource Project was started back in 1988 by Bob Anderson, and primarily started to captively bred and raise peregrine falcons to help repopulate falcons after the devasting effects of DDT across the country. The work actively monitoring the peregrine falcon population up and down the Mississippi River from northern Minnesota down to Illinois, at about 50 sites that we band peregrine falcons. We’ve got nests. We’ve got nest cams and ways that we share that and help educate people.Bob: John, why is the Wisconsin Great River Road the home to such a high number of eagles nests and raptors in general?John: It’s the river that brings them. The Mississippi River is a national flyway for raptors and other waterfowl. It’s amazing. They congregate along that flyway, and it’s part of their instinct to follow that flyway. It’s a major food source for them. It’s a pass way for their migration. It’s a home. It’s being along the Wisconsin boundary of the river and the river floodplain along the Mississippi and the tributaries that come in. That’s where you’re going to find the tide populations and the congregations of these raptors that we love to watch, [including] the bald eagles. We were talking the other day a little bit about the peregrine falcons. At different times of the year there are great opportunities to hear them and see them and watch them in their home territory.Bob: Where’s the best place on the Wisconsin Great River Road to watch the eagles and the raptors?John: Right in the season of Bald Eagle Days up and down the river – Ferryville, Prairie du Chien. A lot of the little towns along the river have their Bald Eagle Days celebrations. Really, the way to get hooked into that is seeing it. Up until about this point where we’re watching, for example, bald eagles, we’re watching them grabbing sticks, breaking sticks, perching, and they’re pair bonding and they’re getting ready for egg laying. When that comes up, we’re going to be looking at egg laying. You can’t see that kind of stuff when you’re driving on the highway or even if you’re along the river. We were talking earlier about that fascination with eagles, and the wild popularity with the Eagle Cam is we actually get to see those details about what’s going on.Bob: Let’s just jump into that right now and ask a little bit more about the Eagle Cam. If we don’t have the opportunity to be on the Wisconsin Great River Road, how can we check out and find out more about eagles and watch them be born and kind of see their habitat?John: We manage a number of different cams in the area. For bald eagles, the premier eagle cam is the Decorah Eagle Cams. Going to our website, www.raptorresource.org, our cams are there. We also stream them through explore.org.Bob: Where along the Wisconsin Great River Road is the best place to view eagles and raptors?John: Between La Crosse all the way down to Prairie du Chien, there’s some great viewing areas. You’re right along the rivers, so it really depends on timing. [There also are] lock and dam areas. The lock and dams typically … That disturbing that happens right at the downstream where you always see the boats and the fishermen, that’s where the eagles are going to be congregating to fish also.Bob: John, earlier you were mentioning about the Mississippi River Flyway. Are there any cameras you have in the Great River Mississippi Flyway area?John: One of the original peregrine falcon cams – and probably the best one we have – is the Great Spirit Bluff peregrine falcon cam. That’s also available on our website, as I mentioned before. When you move away from the bluff and look down and see the tundra swans and the pelicans and the eagles during the great migration along the flyway in the Mississippi River. It was a dream, and we ended up putting up a cam down there on an island out on Lake Onalaska. It was a collaborative project with the National Wildlife and Fish Refuge and the Raptor Resource Project. We started that up last fall, and we have one season of watching all the waterfowl and the eagles. We’ve caught falcons, and we’ve caught great horned owls out there. [There is] a lot of neat waterfowl and raptors right out in Lake Onalaska. The audio on the camera, it’s almost like you’re sitting right down there in the middle of the flyway. Birds will do things out there without a human there. You’re going to get to see and hear some things that you would not see or hear if it wasn’t being brought to you by a camera.

Dr. Michael Fratkin founded ResolutionCare to insure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere as they approach the completion of life. Learn how telehealth applications are bringing a greater quality of living and dying to those in need. Contact ResolutionCare website Transcript Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Please note there is some content that is explicit in this episode. Dr. Bob: Dr. Michael Fratkin is the President and Founder of Resolution Care. Dr. Fratkin is a father, a husband, a brother, a son, a physician, and a very dear friend of mine. Dr. Fratkin is dedicated to the well-being of his community and the community of all human beings. Since completing his training, he's made his home and built his family in rural Northern California. He's served his community as a primary care physician in the community health system, as a medical director of the local hospice, as a leader in the community hospital medical staff, and has been a transformative voice for improving the experience for people facing the end of life. At a time of great demographic and cultural change in our society, Dr. Fratkin has created Resolution Care to ensure capable and soulful care of everyone, everywhere, as they approach the completion of their life. Resolution Care is leveraging partnerships with existing healthcare providers and payers to provide telehealth services that bring a greater quality of life and greater quality of dying. The palliative care team at Resolution Care openly shares their expertise and mentorship so that people can receive the care they need, where they live, and on their own terms. In this podcast interview, Dr. Fratkin shares his passion and his intimate experience as a provider of care. He's innovative; he's creative, he's dedicated beyond what I've experienced with just about anybody else who I've communicated with about palliative care and end-of-life care. I think you're gonna find this podcast to be incredibly informative and really interesting. Okay, Michael, thank you so much for taking time out of your day. I know you've got lots of irons in the fire and lots of people vying for your attention. So I really appreciate having time to connect with you. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I always enjoy talking with you. We connect sporadically, not as much as either of us would probably want, but we have been pretty consistent in finding times to connect and catch each other up on what's happening with our lives and our different enterprises. And what's interesting is, after our conversations, I always think to myself, "I wish other people could have heard that. I wish other people had a chance to listen in and hear what we're developing, and sort of the passion that comes out in these conversations." They're so informative, for me, and I find it so inspiring to hear what you're doing and the service that you're providing and creating. So today we have that opportunity so that people are going to be able to listen in on our conversation. In the introduction, I shared a bit about what you're doing, who you are, but I'd like to have you just do a little synopsis of what Resolution Care is doing currently, where it started from its humble beginnings, and what your vision is for where this is heading. Dr. Fratkin: I'm a dad, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, I'm a son, I'm a whole lot of stuff. But I'm also what's called a palliative care doctor. And your group of listeners probably know a little bit about what that is, but the way that I describe it for people is that there are really three central elements. That number one, we don't take care of any patients. We support people as they find their way through serious illness. We support people with a team; we support their families. Our team includes nurses, doctors, social workers, chaplains, nurse practitioners, community health workers, and all the people that they don't necessarily see, but that are just as important to creating a container for our care, the back office, and operational people. So the first principle is, is that we are a person-centered, not a patient-centered, but a person-centered initiative. And that those persons, the reason I distinguish it ... It's not just the patients or their families, but the people providing the care that are centrally important to everything that we do. And then we build out from there. So the first thing is, we're a person-centered organization, using a team to accompany people with serious illness as they navigate it, right? Dr. Bob: I love it. Dr. Fratkin: So the second thing that we do is that we're really damn good at managing symptoms. Our team has quite a bag of tricks around the treatment of pain and nausea, breathlessness, and various other physical manifestations of illness. And we know how to use that bag of tricks. So symptom control is the second thing. And the third thing is, we help people and their families to navigate what is a completely dysfunctional, fucked up if you don't mind me saying so- Dr. Bob: Let's call that like it is. Dr. Fratkin: Of fragments and silos and conflicting interests, and stakes held. We help people navigate, somewhat, through the complications of their illness, but more so, we recognize that people are trying to make their way through a human experience, not a medical one. And so, we help them navigate through that, bringing the personhood that we are to accompany them with the wisdom, skills, and shortcuts and strategies that we know about navigating. So it's person-centered around the people we care for and us as well. We matter, too. It's impeccable symptom control, and it's navigational assistance. And really tough times of life in a really complicated health care system. So Resolution Care does that. And we use some technology tricks, video conferencing, all of our care is based in the home. And that's that. But I think I also wanna tell you about how I got here and why. Dr. Bob: Please do. Dr. Fratkin: So I came to far Northern California, Humboldt County, in 1996 and joined a community clinic environment as the only internist in a five-clinic system. And my job was to take on all the patient V patients and all the complicated conditions that provided kind of complex case management approach for the heavy hitters, the outliers, the hot spotters. They're called lots of things now, but they were just languishing without the attention they needed when I showed up in town. And for six years, I took the hardest cases in the system, and helped with diagnosis and treatment planning, and burned out rather quickly, because I didn't have a team. I then sort of shifted my attention to my deep connection with hospice work and became a hospice medical director, where I did have a team. But I also had a very constraining box around me, a structure of hospice defined by the Medicare benefit that was limiting our ability to do what made sense, rather than meeting all of the regulation and compliance that continues to accumulate in the hospice model of care. And I burned out again. And then, I did some hospital work. When I started, I was seeing 9-12 people in a day, and I really enjoyed being at the point of the sphere where people were sick enough to be hospitalized and to attend to them both with good medicine, as well as a respect, and frankly, love in the face of what they're going through. And that was great until they started to push me to see 15 or 18. And now, it's 22 patients in a 12-hour shift. And I burned out again. And all the while, paying attention to the rising credibility and relevance of the palliative care movement. So I became first certificated in 2000, and board-certified a few years after that, in palliative care. In 2007, I worked with the hospital to launch a guided care consultation service in the hospital. And as soon as I got started doing that, there was almost immediately, four or five times as many people as I could care for. And I wasn't able to scare up the resources in the hospital to build out a team. So for a period of years, I wrote business plans, I went to committee meetings, I tried to advocate for greater resources to do this good work correctly, and failed to do that. So in 2014, I had had it. Exasperated, fatigued, burned out, I guess for the fourth or fifth time. God knows I can't keep track. I was looking for a job. I figured I couldn't stay here in this beautiful community, because I couldn't figure out how to get a sustainable job with a team that builds capacity over time. And so, I looked for work. And as you know, Bob, a palliative care doctor these days doesn't have to go too far to get too many interviews. I had three interviews in three weeks in the Bay area, and on the way to the Bay area. And they offered me three jobs, quickly, were better resourced, better compensated, more controlled work hours, but none of them were where I lived, where I made my home, where my kids were born in my house. I live on this five-acre piece of redwood forest. My kids were born there. My dogs and cats are buried in the yard. And I didn't wanna leave. So come around spring of 2014, I started to think about maybe there's a way to build capacity, build a team, and share what I know to others so that they could make that work for the people they're caring for. And so, the three ideas were video conferencing, Project Echo, which we could talk about later, it's a telementoring structure that allows a specialist to share information to primary care providers, et cetera. We can talk about that later if you want. And then the third thing was crowdfunding. So in November 1st or 2nd in 2014, we launched an Indiegogo campaign and based on all of my relationships in the community and people's trust in my work, we were able to raise $140,000 in a little over a month. And in January 2015, myself and one other person walked into a donated office space and turned on the lights. Dr. Bob: What a great story, and a great confluence of ... And you being true to your vision, being true to yourself, to what you knew was the absolute right way to practice the ... And you took a risk, right? And you continue every day, taking a risk. I know it. We've had these conversations. I'm trying to remember when we first connected because I've watched this thing go from birth to flourishing. And flourishing may not mean the same thing to you that it does to me, because I know your vision is grander. Dr. Fratkin: Well I know where we met. We met around ... There's a group in San Diego of one old-timer, one mid-timer, but some folks that have been inspired for more comprehensive cancer care in the community for a long time. A fellow by the name of Dan Vicario and the dear, dear friend of mine. I call him my grand brother, Paul Brenner, a psychologist with a deep connection. A psychologist and physician with deep connections to really thoughtful and complete approach to people with serious illness. And it was through them that they connected me to you. Dr. Bob: Right. And I remember that part very clearly. And I've had the honor and the privilege of collaborating on patients with both of them. And it is really; it's magical to be part of that with all of their combined years of wisdom and their just beautiful energy. But I'm trying to remember the stage that you were at. It was probably early on, and- Dr. Fratkin: It was probably in 2015. And without getting too wonkish about enterprise development so that we can get to the topic at hand, 2015 was the year of getting rolling and getting the team. And we did that. By September, we had a nurse, a social worker, chaplain, and office staff, as well as a little bit of a head of steam, with a group of patients. 2016, we really started to grow. And 2017, we continued to grow and sort of learned how to be a business that was sustainable. And coming into 2018, I'll just tell you today, Resolution Care network is tending to about 164 people in their homes, from the Oregon border to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the west, all the way to the ... I guess it's the Idaho/Nevada border to the east, south, pretty much to the Bay area with a couple of other folks a little bit further south. We've got 29 employees. We have contracts with four health plans. And we're making an impact with this model of care that we're developing. Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. And of those 164 current patients, how many of those are receiving physical ... Are you able to get to visit physically, versus doing it entirely through video conferencing? Dr. Fratkin: It's variable. The key element is, is we really do what makes sense. So if a person lives down the street, it makes sense just to drop in and see them and sit on their couch and eat their cookies and chat with them that way. If they live 150 miles away from HQ, we're much more likely to engage with them by video conference. And it's really ... That's kind of what we built into the model. It's a hybrid model, both boots-on-the-ground, face-to-face encounters, with teleconferencing or video conferencing. And we do that in a really nimble fashion so that there are some people who really can't wrap their head around it. And if they're close enough, we provide them with a more traditional home care model. We have people who are right down the street who are very comfortable, in fact, prefer not having somebody knock on the door and walk into their house, but prefer to control the framework of the encounter. And then, different specialties. For my fellow providers and me, we're probably in the 85-90% video conferencing channel. Our nurses are probably in the 50-60% of their direct encounters are done by video. Our community health workers, the other end of the polarity, do very little video conferencing, because that's kind of what their value proposition is, is to be right there in the home with time and engagement to suss out what's needed. Our community health workers extend the reach of our doctors, our nurses, our social workers, and our chaplains. And they're given a lot of room to figure out what makes sense for each person and their family. So it's a variable ratio of boots-on-the-ground to remote engagement. Dr. Bob: Right. And what's cool about it is each situation is unique, and it probably changes over time as well. And I think it's fascinating; the different disciplines have the option of doing it whichever way makes the most sense for the provider as well as for the patient and family. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. At an organizational level for organization people who might be listening, it makes such great sense to use the technologies to eliminate the inefficiencies of travel. What's interesting ... I think we've talked about this before, but when I started to do initial consultations with people, first encounters to carry the arc of ... Oh, there are 8 or 10 elements that I've gotten accustomed to, to feel complete within an initial encounter. When I did it in a clinic setting, or at home, it was a 90 to 120-minute encounter, easily, and really exhausting. But when I started doing those same initial encounters by video conferencing, over and over and over again, they came to a place of completion in about half the time. Dr. Bob: Why is that? Dr. Fratkin: I think it's because we are primates. I think that when you walk into a person's home, there's a whole lot of social primate behavior. There's a whole lot of framing that includes so much more than just the relational engagement, one-on-one, with another person. There's the environment; there's the space, there's how the person feels about inviting a person into their home. There's their level of attention to, let's say, housekeeping, or their level of anxiety about how much energy they have to do housekeeping. There are the dogs; there's the feeling like you're hosting a doctor in your home, or a social worker, whoever. There are the elements of ... If you're really, really sick, maybe you just didn't feel like taking a shower this morning, but the doctor's coming, so you have to put yourself through a whole preparation mode. All of those things are, frankly, in the way of a relationship of trust. They're complications. So I've come to accept that actually doing care virtually is better than real life. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. I find that fascinating, because I do some care, some visits remotely that way. The vast majority, 95+% of them are in patient's homes. So those social, primal, primate behaviors, to me, I find those really endearing. And I think it's almost like a friendship is developing at the same time as a doctor-patient relationship. But I'm not seeing the same volume as you, so I have the luxury of being able to do that at this stage of the game. Dr. Fratkin: I think that's true. I think there are some other things that are hidden in plain sight that relate to it. I'm sure you'll agree that one of the great challenges for hospice work, palliative care work, complex conditions, where people with huge loads of social challenges with sensitive, inspired, caring caregivers and healthcare professionals ... One of the greatest challenges to this work is learning about the nature of boundaries. It shows up in every hospice organization, every palliative care organization, in the hospital, where people get confused about where they begin and where the people that they're attending to begin, or where they begin and end. The I and Thou, to quote Martin Buber. That is very interesting and hard to teach. The way that most of us learn is that we screw it up. We get caught up with the other person's energies. We end up feeling we must keep them pleased. We don't necessarily ... Well, here's the teaching metaphor that I use. I'll see if I can create a visual of this for you and the listeners. Bob, do you remember way back when, in the dark ages, when you took Physics? Dr. Bob: Yes, vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Vaguely. And do you remember studying the components of an electronic circuit? Dr. Bob: Even more vaguely. Dr. Fratkin: Okay. Things like resistors and transistors. Dr. Bob: Capacitors. Dr. Fratkin: Capacitors and stuff, right? Now, I bet you don't quite remember. Maybe you do. You're a smart guy. What a capacitor actually is. Do you remember what a capacitor is? Dr. Bob: In the interest of time, I'm gonna let you- Dr. Fratkin: That's good. Good call, Doc. A capacitor is this: it's two plates. Imagine tiny little squares. One of them's a positive, anode; the other is the cathode. I think that's right, a negative. And they sit inside of a circuit with a proximity to each other and a surface area. And the closer they are together, and the more surface area they have in association with each other, the higher the capacitance. Whatever the stuff of capacitance is that contributes to doing what's needed to an electronic circuit, which is way above my pay grade, is proportional to the surface area and the proximity. And I think that that's better than thinking about staying professionally or technically detached from the people we care for. What we've built is a system that constructs ... All I'm here to do is to give you the technically, medically best treatment. And I can't really allow myself to engage with the truth of what's going on for you as a human being, because that'll make my hands shake in the operating room. That'll make me not make the right choices on your behalf, or provide you with the right recommendations. And I think what that done is it's alienated healthcare professionals from the people that have medical challenges, right? Dr. Bob: Absolutely. Dr. Fratkin: Professional detachment is a 20th century, obsolete concept. My concept is that what we're called to do, especially for people who are feeling the threat to their very existence, is to open as much of ourselves as we can, create a greater surface area, and have the courage to maintain the closest proximity to their circumstances. To understand what's going on. But what happens with the capacitor ... If the two plates touch- Dr. Bob: Kaboom. Dr. Fratkin: Circuit's completed, and there's no capacitance. If you get caught up in people's shit, then you lose the ability to really create the magic that lives between those two plates in close proximity. In human encounters, I say that it's not capacitance that arises with proximity and willingness to be open. What arises is empathy. And empathy is the secret sauce of understanding how to be of service to another person. But if you're caught up in them, if their happiness or well-being becomes relevant to your own happiness or well-being, then you've completed the circuit, and you lose the capacity to have the perspective of being of service to them. It's a long and involved metaphor. Dr. Bob: Yeah, but it's a great one. It's a great one. I'm gonna- Dr. Fratkin: Here's an example. With your wife ... Or actually, with my wife, being with my wife, not you with my wife, but me with my wife ... We are intertwangled. And we sometimes struggle to have enough individuation to understand what each other needs. But we're necessarily, intimately one. One circuit, my family, right? And so I struggle with different kinds of things there than I do in work. It's not a matter of distance; it's a matter of entanglement. When I, for example, being asked to see a 56-year-old person with a brain tumor and two children, the distance I can get in proximity to him is greater than with an old woman who doesn't look anything like my own life. So I have a little bit more room. Others on my team may be able to step right into tending to that father. But for me, I have to create a little bit less proximity in order to make sure that I don't get entangled in the reality of what's going on for him because it so resonates with my own fears and worries about myself. So I can manage the proximity consciously, and by having a team that has a whole different set of concerns and triggers. There, we're intentionally talking about the distance we can tolerate. The best possible scenario is you're almost touching, but not quite. So we have to manage that consciously, and that is one of the ways that I train people around boundaries. This is a very circular way to talk about what I think one of the great advantages of video conferencing in a frame, is that it's literally a frame around the encounter, around the relationship and development. It's necessarily a division. It's necessarily a boundary. And while I can get very close and understand empathically what that person is having, I'm not sitting on their bed. I'm not reacting to their place on the political spectrum, which may be revealed by their red baseball caps or bookshelf. I'm not struggling with my own biases. They are in their most comfortable place as a person, not having had to prepare, go to a clinic, and deal with the waiting room and all the rest of it. They're just at home, as themselves. And I am similarly in a work environment that I've constructed, that I'm very comfortable with. And so, in some ways, the frame around which we ... within which we encounter and develop a relationship, has this necessarily built-in boundary. And so I think that's part of why, rather than two hours, it takes one hour to get to the same place. And that once people have the experience, it's much, much more comfortable for them than home invasions. Dr. Bob: Fascinating. What's interesting is, I'm assuming ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that this has all just been learned as you built this. The rationale and the initial inspiration for doing video conferencing, I'm assuming, was efficiency and being able to connect with people who are in more remote areas. I'm sure that you had very little awareness or understanding about all these additional benefits and advantages that you've come to, that you're just describing. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah. Well, just like I don't have any idea what benefits and nuances and subtleties I'm yet to discover over the next few years. But yeah, you're right. I mean, I started because I noticed that I have had this amazing smartphone and that I'm using it to text and to call and to talk to people on the phone and all the rest. But I realized that it was worth exploring, whether or not a synchronous audiovisual experience with two people in two different places, working on the same thing together, whether that would work. Because I have this crazy, amazing supercomputer in my pocket called an iPhone. So a lot of it was curiosity. I didn't really quite get the efficiencies and the network development until I started playing around with it. The way that I discovered it was, a friend of mine who works at Google told me about a project that came and went over about 11 months, called "Helpouts." And Google had this project where they were setting up a platform that included video conferencing, the "Hangouts" app, a webpage that you could tell your story about what expertise you wanted to share with other people, a scheduling function, a wallet function, and a messaging function, all on one little webpage. And if you had Chinese cooking that you wanted to teach, you could put your page up there, invite people to take a look, and if they wanted to schedule you, they could. And you'd charge them $15 for a half hour or whatever you wanted to charge. If you wanted to help people with their business plans or filling out their tax forms or whatever other expertise you might wanna share, you were out on the sort of open market, and direct consumer engagement would allow you to do it. So he asked me, would I wanna do it for palliative care. And I said, "Yeah, sure." So I spent two hours throwing up a little thing, and within a month, I had five people reach out to me. And the first person that did was a woman who was in a hospital in the Bronx, in terrible pain, from a metastatic cancer problem. And she was miserable and interested in talking. So we connected, and about five minutes, five seconds, the technology itself disappeared, and there I was, doing my thing. And within 30 or 40 minutes, we're both kind of in tears about the big picture of things. And it was really clear that some basic fundamentals of managing her symptoms would make a big difference. So I got her permission to reach out to the hospitalist tending to her. He was willing to talk to me. I told him, "Do x, y, and z." And the following day, she was discharged from the hospital. And I connected again, and she was so grateful for that advocacy and the difference that it made in her life. And I knew that this could so work. Dr. Bob: Yeah. What a beautiful story to spearhead and show you the impact. Dr. Fratkin: So it was more about just curiosity of what can I do with this crazy iPhone in my pocket? I hadn't really put it together that I was gonna build a social enterprise called Resolution Care at that point. I was just trying to figure out why are we not using this tool? And so I started using it, and it worked. Dr. Bob: That's great. So hey, I have a question. You and I, we're both palliative care physicians. We both specialize and are passionate about bringing people the best possible and holistic support to deal with their struggles and their challenges. And we know what works, right? And anyone who's involved in palliative care understands the value, sees the value on so many levels. On the human level, the financial level, the social level. Why are we having ... Why do you think we're having such a hard time getting traction and seeing palliative care become what it needs to become? Because you're working within the system. You're working with insurers, and you're working with the whole Medicare and insurance billing component, as well as contracting. What's your take on it? What's going on? I know it's a big question. And it's not a simple answer, but I really wanna hear your thoughts on it. Dr. Fratkin: Yeah, no. I think I would probably disagree with you. And only because- Dr. Bob: That's good. I'm happy to hear that, too. Dr. Fratkin: Only because this morning I happened to have a little bit of perspective. I don't know why that is. It might be just; I hit the number of cups of coffee just right. But I think what I would say is it's happening at an almost spectacular pace. It's amazing what's occurred for our society as it relates to our mortality in the last few years. That there's a transformative change in the public conversation around death and dying. I just happen to be pretty well-timed to get up on my surfboard and ride that wave, while also contributing to that wave through having conversations like this one. But let's go back to 2014. In 2014 in October, the Institute of Medicines Dying in America study, the second version was published. It was, I think, 10 or 11 years after they did it the first time, where they did a very deep dive into how people in America finished their lives. And what they basically said in that report was it sucks, and it hasn't changed in 12 years. It talked about how much bias there was and how little capacity there was for palliative care in cancer patients. But they also talked about the aging population, the demographic shifts that are intensifying this sort of tsunami, silver tsunami of people with a greater burden of illness, and the cost of health care, and the absence of focused and targeted support structures for people as they completed their life. And they said, "Why hasn't it changed for 12 years?" A month later, Atul Gawande published "Being Mortal," a blowout success that surprised even him, about bringing this conversation to "How do we die in America?" To a more narrative discussion. And you and I, in our field, we've been talking about these issues for 20 years, maybe longer. And I ask myself ... Well, actually, when Atul Gawande presented to the American Economy of Hospice and Palliative Medicine in 2015, he was interviewed by the Philadelphia Inquirer. And before his presentation, he says, "Gosh, Dr. Gawande, you have this blowout New York Times bestseller. Everybody's reading your book. What are you gonna tell all these hospice and palliative care doctors when you talk to them tomorrow?" And he said, "Well, I'm gonna say thank you. And I'm gonna ask the question, 'Why haven't they been listening to you?" And I was disappointed the next day when he actually didn't ask that question. He [inaudible 00:40:34] from his prepared remarks. But I found myself, for the next few days, thinking about that question [inaudible 00:40:42]. Why haven't they been listening to those of us that have been doing hospice or working with death and dying, working with families very closely, learning what brings value to them? Why haven't they been listening to us? And I think the answer is that we were talking to ourselves, talking to each other, thinking in terms of big health care delivery systems and academic papers and elevating our own careers through the accumulation of initials and prestige and all the rest. The academy of hospice and palliative medicine was academic, an ivory tower, and not really directing its attention outward. And I told Gawande, his voice was completely outward-directed, and it wasn't because he was such a great doctor. It was because he was a son. And being mortal, he's a clueless ears, nose, and throat surgeon who was getting it wrong. Then he, as a son, experienced the challenges that his father faced. And that transformed his perspective as a physician. So his story of conversion was related not to his role as world-famous, world-renowned surgeon. It was related to his role as a son. And so he ... And he's such a brilliant communicator and journalist. Now fast-forward three years later. He is selected by Berkshire Hathaway, Amazon, and whoever the heck, to lead an organization as a symbol of what's possible by thinking out of the box. And as a symbol, that his orientation is grounded, his career has exploded so that he is the leading, most exciting CEO in health care. And he's completely grounded in an understanding of what person-centered care must turn out to be. Dr. Bob: Yeah. That is exciting. That's an exciting development. Dr. Fratkin: And then there's BJ Miller and the traction that he got telling his story as a TED Talk. And then there's Jessica Zitter with her book, called "Extreme Measures." And then there's Shoshana Ungerleider, working in the Bay area, kind of behind-the-scenes, producing powerful documentary films, one of which, "Extremis," was nominated for an Academy Award. But these powerful experiences taking the public into places that we've been populating for decades. The intensive care unit, or the hospital-based palliative care program. And bringing people into that, that wouldn't otherwise look. Not to mention, the millennial spirit of younger people is that they don't blink. They don't avert their gaze at what's difficult. They tend to be drawn towards things that represented shadows for the previous generations. So I think there's a lot happening, that's happening very fast. And in three-and-a-half years, we built this organization kind of on the strength of that, and with the advantage of being an outsider like you, Bob. Dr. Bob: Well, I appreciate that perspective. And hearing you speak, it's inspiring. And it's true. Things are happening. There is a groundswell. I guess my perspective, A) I'm just, in general, a very impatient person. And B) I'm out here in the community speaking. And my of the talks are really focused on older groups, and I still have rooms that are filled with people who just don't really know about palliative care. And when there is palliative care in the community outpatient setting discussed, a lot of times, people have felt that it couldn't fulfill their needs. Because there's A) not enough providers, B) the offerings are not complete enough. And a lot of that has to do with the payment, the reimbursement models. So on the one hand, I do see that we are moving in the right direction, and that's exciting. And at the same time, I'm frustrated because I still ... And as I know, you see this as well. We still see people who are day-in and day-out, struggling, because their needs are not getting met. And we know what they need, and it's just not available to enough people today. Dr. Fratkin: No. It's super true, Bob. I mean, I feel exactly the same way. And for my own psychic well-being, there was a long time ago that I had to make the choice that I wasn't gonna focus on the unmet need or demand as the target of my attention. I was gonna focus on building capacity. And that I was gonna not worry about the fact that I could have burned myself out again trying to deal with one out of four people that I could get to in the hospital. I could have stayed inside of that, like most of us do, just trying to push that boulder up the hill. But what I had to do was to take a risk and say, "For those three or four people I don't get to, in their interest, not the same people but the next three or four or five or six or 12 or 250, it's gonna take some strategic thinking to build capacity." And there are so many sad stories. And as soon as I hear their names or hear some element of their stories, my heart starts to break and be frustrated with them that they don't get the service or don't know that there's a service that would help them. But my focus is not so much on those people; as it is, I know there are so many of them out there that my best efforts are to build capacity to manage and to set the tone of what palliative care capacity building looks like. We believe that it's not just whatever you could cobble together with crappy resources from whoever your institutional home is. Palliative care is best provided by a team of individuals who are well-supported in sustainable, soulful workplaces, but include a nursing perspective, a chaplaincy perspective, a social work perspective, and provider perspective. We are committed to that. So what we provide is actually pretty expensive. And the good news is, is that what we provide delivers to our health plan partners, a three to five x return on investment. Every dollar they spend turns into three to five that they saved. And they can measure those dollars. So they're interested in program development and building capacity for us. We think in the state of California, less than .5% of people who would benefit from palliative care support are getting it. If I focus on that 99.5 % of people who are suffering terribly- Dr. Bob: You'll be paralyzed, right? Dr. Fratkin: It breaks me down. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Dr. Fratkin: But I'm trying to get from .5 to 1. And I'm trying to do it by providing soulful, sustainable, meaningful experiences for my treasured colleagues. Nurses and all these people who, 100 years ago or 500 years ago or 5,000 years ago, would still be doing the same thing. They wouldn't be called nurses; they would be called neighbors. They would be called aunties. They would be called "the ones you call for help when you need it." It's been a part of human society forever, and we are burning out those people in a terrible way. So I'm just as loyal to creating incredible work experiences for those folks, as I am to building capacity to tend to the needs of sick folks, too. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing. And that's how this will grow, sustain itself, by nurturing those who are serving others. Because this work, it's difficult, it's challenging, it is emotionally trying, and as I think we both experienced this, it is such ... It also fills us up in a way that nothing else does. And we don't throw the word "love" around enough. We had a meeting with my team a couple days ago. And when you try to really identify the essence of what we do, and really what we do is we love people, and then we take our skills and our experience and our wisdom, and we apply those in the way that we express our love for them. Dr. Fratkin: For sure. I was talking to a Native American fellow who lives up in the hills. And I was exploring with him his relationship to tribe and culture. And I'm not sure how we got there, and I wish I could remember the pronunciation of the word, but I won't massacre it. But he was explaining to me that there's a word that's being used by the tribe and others that kind of means "thank you," but it's being used in the "thank you" way. In a very, sort of, superficial way. But he said that the word itself is very much more specific. It's the kind of thank you or gratitude that's offered to someone who showed up to meet a need you had. If you're old and someone brings you food, it's the thank you for that. If your roof is leaking, but you can't fix it or afford it, and the guys hop in the truck and start throwing shingles on your roof, it's the thank you for that. It's the thank you for showing up and meeting a need for someone in your community. It's not "Thanks." It's deeper than that. And the presence that we bring, the willingness to love while preserving boundary, the willingness to respect the otherness of these people that we care for. And the willingness to drink a lot of coffee and build out a system to create beautiful jobs and keep the vision as clean and clear as possible. It's the thank you I feel from the community, even if I don't hear it said. I'm so proud of what this team has done for so many people we've touched. 1100, 1200 people who wouldn't otherwise have gotten this care. And that means there are 5-10,000 people who we didn't touch. I'm sad about that, but I'm proud of the work that this incredible team has done over these last three years with very little resource and a ton of coffee. Dr. Bob: Yeah. And a ton of passion and a ton of- Dr. Fratkin: Love. Dr. Bob: Love and determination. And proud you should be, my friend. And I'm excited to continue to follow your progress and the progress of Resolution Care and the impact that you're having. And your model is a model that I'm sure many will want to learn and try to apply in their communities. So before we sign off, I would love for the listeners to go and check out your website. That's resolutioncare.com. And in addition, there's a foundation and an opportunity to help support this amazing, so, so needed care. So you have a 501C3, I understand. Dr. Fratkin: It's called Resolution Care Institute, and there's a page on our website. And if people have a few dollars, they wanna donate, that's absolutely welcome. Yeah. And also, I guess I would ask them, too ... We create maybe once or twice a month what I consider to be pretty high-valued content in a newsletter. And I would love to build the community, so on the website, all you have to do is put in your name and email address, and we'll send you stuff. And if you don't think it has value, you just unsubscribe to it. But I suspect you'll enjoy being a part of our community. We tend to ... We're trying to figure out how to tell stories about the impact of the work that we're doing while getting ourselves out of the way. Just letting people tell their own stories. So we've done that with some videos, and we've done that with some blog posts and other newsletters. And the response we get is favorable. So I'd really like to build that community out if people are inclined. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we'll fully try to support that, and to everyone's benefit. And we'll also have the links for Michael's site and the ways to connect with him on our website, integratedmdcare.com. Michael, thank you. You're so passionate, articulate. I could listen to you all day, describing your views and your excitement about what you're doing. And I would love to try to connect again. And I know that there are several things that we wanted to touch on that we didn't have time to, but hopefully- Dr. Fratkin: I'm happy to do this anytime, Bob. This is how we're making an impact, is by telling the truth and sharing that.    

Dr. Bob's patient, Bill Andrews had ALS and was terminally ill. Before Bill decided to exercise his right to die in California, he agreed to do this interview to help others understand the importance of the law and his decision.     Transcript Dr. Bob:  Hi everybody. I'm here today on the phone with a gentleman who I'm really interested in having everybody hear from and meet. It's kind of a unique opportunity on all counts to hear from a gentleman who has lived life very fully, really did a lot of things that many people only dream about doing in his life and before he was able to really see that life through, was afflicted by a disease that has no cure and is universally debilitating and in many cases fatal. He's become a patient and a friend and I've had an opportunity to really be amazed by his story and by his outlook and approach, both himself and his family. We only have a brief opportunity to hear from and learn from Bill because, well, you'll find out why in just a bit. I'd love to introduce William Bill Andrews. Bill, say hello to our listeners. Bill Andrews: Hello listeners. Dr. Bob: Thanks. Bill Andrews: This is Bill Andrews reporting in. Dr. Bob: Thank you, Bill. Thank you so much for being here. Bill, who's with you? You have a couple of your sons with you as well. Can we introduce them? Bill Andrews: Yes. I'm with my oldest son, Brian, and my youngest son, Chris. Dr. Bob: All right, and thank you guys for Bill Andrews: They can say hello, I guess. Brian: Hello. Dr. Bob: All righty. Sounds good. As I mentioned, Bill is a 73-year-old gentleman with ALS. Bill, how long have you had ALS? Bill Andrews: I'm going to say probably about—I'm going to guess about two years. Dr. Bob: Okay. Bill Andrews: I was diagnosed about what, a year and a half ago, Brian? Brian: One year ago. Bill Andrews: One year ago. Then it was very obvious that there was something seriously wrong. The precursor to this is I had broken my back. I used to motocross and do a lot of surfing and stuff and I had many, many ... I brought injuries into the ALS experience. Broken back. Oh, just all kinds of stuff, so when I finally couldn't deal with the kind of the day-to-day life of my current injuries and stuff, that's when I really got [inaudible 00:02:51 ALS because I couldn't stand up. I could barely walk. I was still trying to surf, like an idiot, but it became very difficult. Just a year and a half ago I was in Peru surfing. Dr. Bob: Wow, but you knew something was going on? You had already Bill Andrews: I knew something was going on. Dr. Bob: Okay. Bill Andrews: I knew something serious was going on. Dr. Bob: Then a year ago it was officially diagnosed and then what's Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: What are things like today? Bill Andrews: Horrible. I'm in bed. I get fed. I wear diapers. I'm kind of confined to my bed. We have a Hurley lift, I'm going to guess that thing is called. Dr. Bob: A Hoyer lift. Bill Andrews: Hoyer lift, and I just get into that and I have an electric wheelchair. Last weekend I was able to get out and see my kids play some sports and stuff, but that's about it. This is where I live now. At Silvergate, room 1-1-3 in my hospital bed. Dr. Bob: Wow, and a year and a half ago you were surfing in Peru? Bill Andrews: When was it? Brian: Yeah. It was a year and a half ago. Yeah. Yeah. Bill was surfing in Peru. Bill Andrews: But I knew there was something wrong, you know? I was struggling. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Really mightily. Dr. Bob: Yeah. As far as you are aware, and you've been dealing with this and obviously researching being treated. You've been in the system. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: Everybody, the best that medical care has to offer has been offered to you, I'm assuming. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: Here you are in this situation. What is your understanding of what will happen if things just are allowed to go on as they would normally? Bill Andrews: Well, as I understand it, I will not be able to swallow my food chew my food, swallow my food. Nor be able to breathe on my own, as I understand it. Dr. Bob: Right. Which is correct. I mean, the timeframe for those things is unclear. Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Have the doctors given you any estimates? Bill Andrews: No. That's a moving target. No, they haven't. No. Uh-uh (negative). Dr. Bob: Okay, but that's inevitable for every person who has amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. Bill Andrews: I haven't heard of anything yet. I tell people, you know, I'd guess ... Because I have some friends that say, “Well, look, Bill, a cure may be right around the corner. You know, just stay in bed and they'll invent a cure and you're going to be fine." Well, that ain't going to happen. In my lifetime anyway. I don't want to go out with the tube in me and all that stuff. I feel at least now I'm reasonably good mentally and this is kind of where  I'm at a good point right now. Spiritually, emotionally, physically. Dr. Bob: Great. Bill Andrews: That's where I am. Dr. Bob: That's where you are. Bill Andrews: Yep. Dr. Bob: What's your game plan? You want to talk about the strategy and what's been happening? Bill Andrews: Well, my game plan is—well, for the last couple of weeks I've been trying to wrap up a lot of little-unfinished tasks and chores that I wanted to complete, little projects, but I think they're doing just fine. I think my family ... I guess the big thing for me is that my family, that we're all on the same page. That to me was crucial. That we all understood what I was doing and why I was doing it and that this was all my choice. Looking at what the options are and for me, an option is not being confined to my bed the rest of my life and being kept alive. I don't want to be a Stephen Hawking, and another thing that I wanted to really pass on to my kids is that I'm not fighting the battle, I'm just kind of lying here. I'm getting taken care of. This ain't a bad ... You know, if you like getting taken care of, this ain't bad. I get my diapers changed, get fed, get dessert. People run errands for me, but the warriors are like my kids and the caregivers and the doctors like you are. You guys are the warriors. I'm just a ... You know, you're the warriors and right now I'm just kind of a settler. I just got to lie here but you guys are out there doing the battle. Dr. Bob: What an incredibly refreshing perspective to have. You know? You're not feeling like a victim like so many people justifiably do. You know, you're seeing it from so many different angles, not just your own. Not only through your own eyes, which is remarkable, I think. Bill Andrews: Oh, thank you. Well, yeah. About 30-something years ago I was diagnosed with a real, pretty bad case of malignant melanoma and I was only given a few months to live at that time. That was about 30-something years ago. My kids were there when I was diagnosed and everything, so I've already fought that battle. I had the tumor taken out of my arm. Had my lymph nodes excised. I fought that battle because I could see there's was a way to win that one, so there I kind of feel like I was a warrior, but here, ah, you guys are. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That battle, the melanoma battle, I've seen how that turns out in most cases, which is not the way it turned out for you. It was, at least back then - Bill Andrews: No, I was bad with the - Dr. Bob: You were well aware of that. I know. Bill Andrews: I was very, very lucky. Yeah, I was very lucky. In fact, kind of going a little off track, at the time I had it they were experimenting with BCG injections. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Up at UCLA. They were going to inject BCG in the initial site of the tumor for melanoma. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: I sent my path report up to them and they rejected me because the path report looked so bad, that I probably was going to die. They didn't want that on the report. Dr. Bob: Wow. Bill Andrews: I kind of fought that one out anyway. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Flipped a little bit. Dr. Bob: You faced your mortality, right? You had no choice but to face your mortality at that point. Bill Andrews: Correct. Dr. Bob: You were what? Bill Andrews: Oh, there is no choice. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You were in your 40's? Bill Andrews: Yeah. Absolutely. Dr. Bob: With children that were young. Right? Bill Andrews: Right. Correct. Dr. Bob: Certainly not grown adults. Bill Andrews: They were there in the doctor's office with me, yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: I think you were sort of alluding to this and assuming that, maybe assuming that some of the people out there who are listening know what we're talking about.  But I don't think we actually discussed what the option is that you are taking to handle things the way that you feel best. Can you share a bit, share that? Bill Andrews: Sure. I, you know, kind of put a box on the board. I'll kind of equate this back to my melanoma. With the melanoma, I was given ... The doctors said, "Well, you kind of have three choices. 1: You do nothing because it appears to be fairly advanced melanoma and just see what happens. 2: You look for some miracle cure somewhere. Go to Haiti or somewhere and find a miracle cure. Or 3: Let conventional medicine dig in, and I took the third choice and I'm still here. With the ALS the choices seem to be kind of the same. I can just sit back here and wait until I can no longer breathe or eat. Or I can be kept alive by breathing tubes and feeding tubes and stuff. Or I can do with this choice that I'm making now, which is to go through the end of life in a peaceful happy way with ... I mean, I feel good about this, doctor, I really do. As long as my family's on board with me it's spectacular. I really don't think there's ... The choice for me, and this is easy, you know. This is the time and I'm not going to be kept alive. I watched a Stephen Hawking film on TV years ago and there was a lot of recrimination and stuff about, anger and stuff, by keeping him alive and I don't want that to happen with my family. Nor do I want it to cost eight trillion dollars to keep me alive. There're  factors that went into my decision. Dr. Bob: Many factors and the decision is still being made every day. Bill Andrews: Every day. Every single day, Doctor. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: For clarification, Bill is exercising his legal right in California to go through the end of life option act. To receive Aid in Dying, which means that he's made requests of his physician, who's me in this case, to prescribe a medication that will allow him to end his life if he chooses to take it on his terms at the time and place of his choosing. A second doctor who knows him well has concurred that Bill is of sound mind and has a condition that's terminal. Bill has submitted a written request saying basically the same thing. Four days from the date of this recording, Bill's plan is to get this prescription filled and take this medication with his family around him, his loved ones, and he will peacefully, quickly, and in a very dignified way, stop breathing and die. As I said, Bill's making this choice each day because there's no requirement. He doesn't need to take the medication. He can choose at any time not to, and it's just fascinating to be having a conversation with a man who has the presence of mind, the courage, the support from his family, and knows that there's a very good chance and in his mind an absolute chance, that his life will be ending in four days. I am completely honored and awed to be able to have this really frank conversation with you about what you're thinking and feeling and I remember our last conversation you just kind of blew me away when you told me that you're excited. This whole thing is in some way exciting to you. Are you still feeling that way? Bill Andrews: Oh, absolutely. No, this is a ... No. We're, you know we're ... You, I mean… It's great talking. Let me just kind of preface. You have this really kind way of speaking that most of my other doctors haven't had quite the effect on me that you have. Yeah, I'm enjoying this. I've kind of been a pioneer in a lot of things and this is just ... I'm really enjoying this and let me tell you, Doctor, the thing that's the most incredible thing to me, and this is more of a, really a spiritual and emotional thing, is being able to choose when you're going to die. I've always thought if I were to die the most noble way, for me, would be to be protecting my family, my loved ones, or even a dog in the street or something. If I were going to die, would be doing, I guess maybe doing good, but you never know when it's going to hit, but with this, I get to say the goodbyes. I get to do whatever unfinished business. I get to finish any unfinished business and it's unreal, kind of. Very interesting. I think this can do a lot of good. I was telling somebody this morning that if one were suicidal, the worst way to end one's life would be by suicide by cop or something. Where you actually in one's selfishness at ending your life, you end others. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: Where I think that's horrible and I have friends who have done that, but for this, you know, I'm choosing the time. I'm choosing the place. I'm choosing the environment. I'm choosing the company and for me, this is by far, I can't think of anything better. I've almost drowned a couple of times. I've been in car accidents and all that but this is almost soothing. I hope it really works in the way that it's been intended to work and doesn't get prostituted or something in some way that it goes off track. Dr. Bob: You mean the whole idea of the ability to support people in this way with terminal illnesses and the physician aid in dying? You're worried that it could somehow get off track? Bill Andrews: I hope it doesn't is what I'm saying. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, there's a lot of protections in there and if I have anything to say about it, it won't. There's enough. You know? Bill Andrews: Yep. Yeah. Well, I know. That's why you know, you guys at the beginning are the ones that are going to chart the course and that's I think, really, really important. Dr. Bob: Yeah, and I think it's important for people to consider, to understand that this is so far away from suicide. When I hear the word physician-assisted suicide I understand Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: It irks me because I think that there's nothing remotely like the suicide that most people think about, which is to end, you know, your life because of some emotional suffering or situation that you're in. People who are using this option, like you, are dying. I mean, you would choose. I'm sure that you would give anything, anything, to be able to not be in that position. Right? In which case you would be— the furthest thing from your mind would be taking a medication and ending your life. Bill Andrews: Absolutely. That's absolutely true and I know sometimes I throw the word suicide out and that's only because maybe because it's simple to say that word but I certainly like your definition a heck of a lot better than mine. Dr. Bob: I guess I took that opportunity just to insert my bias on that. Bill Andrews: Well, I agree. I think you're absolutely not. Dr. Bob: This is your experience and you can think about it or talk about it Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Any way you want. Bill Andrews: Yeah. Dr. Bob: Bill, I have the advantage of having a little bit more knowledge of your background and who you are and I think this whole conversation becomes more poignant when people have a sense of what you've done. Could you share a little bit about your background? Bill Andrews: Oh boy. How much time do we have? Dr. Bob: Let's do the Reader's Digest version. Bill Andrews: Well, we'll do a real quick one, yeah. My grandfather's a general in the army. The Air Force. My father was in the military. I was born in Chicago. We moved to California in the '50s and eventually, my family ended up in La Jolla. I grew up right across the street surfing and enjoying the ocean at La Jolla Shores. Graduated from La Jolla High School. Got a scholarship to the University of New Mexico as the United States was preparing for Vietnam. I didn't do real well with that experience with the military side of my education. Anyway, I kind of did an odd thing. I just worked. I have a very broad, broad work history. Not very deep. I know a little bit about a lot of stuff. I've done engineering. I've done clothing manufacturing. I've made garments overseas. I did some advertising programs for Pepsi-Cola. I was on the cover of Surfer magazine if that makes any big deal. I used to motocross motorcycles. I used to race motorcycles. An avid sportsman, fishing. Loved education so this is why this program that you're doing is so fascinating to me. I'm absolutely enjoying every second of watching this go through the process. Raised three beautiful children. Actually, their mother did a much better job at raising them than I did. I just love learning about this and I am so thankful that we've progressed to a state where we can talk about these things. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Bill Andrews: You know, maybe my kids have a one- sentence thing they can say. Not something too bad. Dr. Bob: I would love to get a little bit of the insight from them if they're willing. No pressure though. Brian: Hello, this is Brian and just—my dad's always been a real go-getter in life and wants us to be the very best we can be and always wanting us to be improving and really to be exceptional. Of course, it's been very difficult to watch him go from a very active person and suffering through the loss of being able to use his body. Back on that comment about the suicide, I'm finding a lot of comfort from knowing that you know the cause of death is ALS and that we're able to make this choice. The aid in dying is just fabulous for us that this was passed in California and we're getting the help to do this and your guidance. It's either, you know, going to be that path or watching him really suffer and go through a long and much more difficult process, having a result in a very short time from now that we get to avoid with this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Brian: Feeling very fortunate and very proud of my dad and very thankful we have this choice. Dr. Bob: Wonderful and I have to tell you, you know, that giving him the gift of supporting him is incredibly powerful. I've had the opportunity to be with many of the family members. The children, the spouses, parents of people who have done the end- of- life option and they are all so at peace knowing that they gave that gift and it didn't always start out— they didn't start out feeling supportive or comfortable with it by any stretch of the imagination but having come through that together, recognizing how desperately important it is to the person who's dying to have that support and to have people with them at the time, you get to go on the rest of your life knowing that you gave that ultimate and last gift. Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Good for you and thank you. This might be helpful for people. When your dad first—and Chris, if you want to chime in too—When your dad first approached this with you, what was your initial reaction? Do you remember? Brian: Well we actually brought this forward ourselves in working with him. We were looking at researching ALS and talking about what we wanted to do in the time ahead from diagnosis and we decided we were going to really come together as a family and we took a great trip together, a road trip, and we spent a lot of time together and had a lot of great conversations. Dad's friends from surfing—he's got hundreds of friends— threw him an amazing party. It was a celebration of life while he was here and that's the way Dad wanted to do that versus waiting until he was gone and having a big service and paddle out after he was gone, so that was an amazing day. We had a band, amazing food. It was a beautiful day at the beach. Dr. Bob: Wow. Brian: His friends made this happen down in La Jolla. We've really just taken this time to come closer together and have these great experiences. We were thinking about how this was all going to come to an end and we were going to ALS meetings and just really learning about it and part of that was just researching. I remember reading about it online and then we talked about it as a family and then, you know, it kind of went from there. Dr. Bob: Okay. Brian: Yeah, just exploring the options. We all have felt really good about it from day one. Dr. Bob: Great, so it kind of happened organically and a lot of times it's the individual who finds out about it or comes to that kind of decision, sometimes having been thinking about it for quite a while and it does take some finesse sometimes and time to get families onboard, so I'm glad that you didn't have to go through that. You were able to just, from day one, be united and working together, which is great. Bill Andrews: Yeah, I think in general we were 90 to 95% onboard in total from day one. My decision was I did not want to be kept alive and if it came down to not eating, not drinking or whatever, that was my chosen course. I wasn't going to put my family—I didn't want to put my family through a whole bunch of torture but a torture for me would be breathing help and eating help. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: And selfishly watching my bank account go from a very small amount to negative numbers. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Bill Andrews: A lot's played into my decision, selfishly, on what I was going to do. Dr. Bob: I hear you. Bill Andrews: I appreciate them that they're going along with this. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Chris: This is Chris. I have one more thing to add to that. Dr. Bob: Great. Chris: I think in the beginning we were very curious about the disease and that curiosity led us to read a lot and also like Brian said, they started going to meetings. I was living in New York and I was pretty far away, so for me, it was more of like an academic research. Like what can I read and what can I understand more of? Once you start to dive into that space and you get like ... If you don't have a disease you need proximity to it to understand it and once you do, it sort of is like "this is awful" and you want to do everything you can to help. I think that for other families that might be going through this, I imagine there's a lot of avoidance of kind of really want to think about the end or "I don't really want to know too much about it”.  But for us I think having, throwing ourselves into it, it gave us a lot more strength, I guess, to just keep moving through this process with him. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris: Because we know what's on the other side of it. We don't know how he's feeling but we're able to paint a picture of it by seeing how other people, what it's done to other people. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Now other people will be able to look and have, hopefully, hear this conversation, and the conversation can continue in various forms, but to see how powerful it can be to plan. Right? Not to avoid but to see what's coming, what are the alternatives, how do you make sure that at the end you feel like you have the control you need, that you always would want. The disease takes pretty much all control, at least physical control, away. I imagine knowing that you're going to be able to make this last decision for yourself, Bill, gives you a real sense of control back that's been missing. Bill Andrews: Oh, it absolutely does. I just want to add one more thing too. When I first was diagnosed I wanted to learn more and more about the disease. I'm reading, reading, voraciously and you know, it's all over the place of what it is, what causes it, what doesn't cause it and on and on and on.   So I kind of, I started writing originally about my experiences on my blog and then I thought, eh, if people want to learn about the disease they can go to Wikipedia or something. People had asked and they go, “Well, how are you feeling today? You're moving your toes.", or something. I go, “Well, you know, maybe you ought to learn more about the disease yourselves and then maybe you'd understand where I'm coming from a little easier." Because it's all kind of basically the same, so rather than explaining to the same people every other day how I'm feeling, just, you know, make your own calendar and chart it yourself and they can make their own timeline or something. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Mm-hmm (affirmative). Brian: Yeah, my dad's real quick as well. Dad would always say, "Hey, if this is where it would stop, I could be okay. Where I still can stand up and take a few steps with my walker or be able to feed myself and go to the bathroom. Yeah, okay, I'm okay." Then every day we'd get progressively worse and you hit a new level and it'd be like "Wow, I didn't think I'd keep going with this but now that I'm here I could keep going a little more.", and it was just like, and I'm going where is the line? You know? Where is the final level where it's not going to be okay anymore and then it becomes a— there is a point where ... Because as Chris said, "Dad, we're researching." In the end Dad, he was consistent from day one. "I will not be in a feeding tube. I will not be in on a respirator. I don't want to be kept alive. If I have to be fully cared for and bedridden, that's not the quality of life I want to have and that's when I'm ready to go." So always trying to think about, well, at some point we're going to hit a point where you can't move your arms at all. Today he can't move his legs and he doesn't have the strength to do anything with his arms other than lift something that weighs just a few ounces. Pretty soon he won't have the ability to use his arms at all and that's very close so we're trying to stay ahead. We know that there're only a few decisions left. You know, at the very end he's going to starve to death and go through a [inaudible 00:33:26. A difficult process or take this option, so it's been just always trying to stay ahead, but as the years evolved, choices and the days and the weeks and the equipment we need and choices to make has been—it's all in Dad's own journey. Dr. Bob: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Brian: But here we are and now we're all feeling really good about this choice. You know, given where we are. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Thank you. That was really awesome to hear and it's Dad's journey but you're a team and the obvious connection and bond that you guys share in his knowing that this isn't—it's not going to tear you apart, it's not going to destroy you. That you are so together on it and seeing this is the compassionate option. I mean that's going to allow him to slip away so peacefully with that feeling of I don't know, completion or this ultimate sense of connection so that's really powerful that you've been able to create that for him together, all of you. Bill Andrews: Yeah, it's the compassion I think that is so important. You know, everybody can have sympathy or they can have empathy, but all I ask from people is you don't even have to understand it, just accept it as it is and when I tell you how it is, that's what it is. If you need any more information, go to Wikipedia. Go to WebMD or something, I don't know. That's the way I feel. Dr. Bob: All right. Hey, I have two more questions if that's okay and then I'm going to let you go. Bill Andrews: Okay. Dr. Bob: One of them is do you have any fear at this point? Is there anything about this that is causing fear or anxiety for you? Bill Andrews: Absolutely not. Not a drop of fear. Dr. Bob: Awesome. Great. Bill Andrews: No. This is like, you know— Dr. Bob: Oh, go ahead. Bill Andrews: Just a new adventure. A new adventure. Dr. Bob: Okay. That's beautiful. Bill Andrews: Anticipation, not fear. Dr. Bob: Great. I guess the last one is what would you like to share? I know it's not like you're out shouting from the mountaintops to the masses here but Bill Andrews: Right. Dr. Bob: Can you distill down your message? Bill Andrews, Big Pink. Bill Andrews: Surfing. Surfing nickname, no less. Dr. Bob: It's a surfing nickname. Bill Andrews: I guess now that I'm looking back, obviously you can't make every move the right move and just a couple of things. I think if you kind of put your life on autopilot— this may be a little weird but, kind of set a course if you can. You know, get a point A to point B and of course, then obviously by judgment is the right course. You know, a good course. Like a righteous course, and try to stay to that and every once in a while get, but because of your autopilot and that comes internally or God or your friends or whatever, kind of knocks you back into ... Excuse me. Back on course so you're not out there one month, two months, three months. You know, kind of lost out there and then you're looking at time bandits and everything. I think it's very important to make as much effective use of your time as you possibly can, and there again, you know I'm preaching to the choir and all that stuff, but I look back at my life. You know, you only have so many minutes in your life and, gosh, if you could just make 60% of those minutes effective and doing good again, all by definition, that would be my—that's my message to my kids. Kind of pick that course, stay on that course, and you'll look back and go, "Gosh, I've lived a good life and I'm proud of what I've done." Dr. Bob: That's beautiful. Thank you. That's really phenomenal. You guys, Brian, Chris, do you have anything you'd like to say about your dad or anything regarding this before we close out? Brian: Just that we love Dad very much and we're proud of him and proud to be your son, Dad. Bill Andrews: Thank you. Dr. Bob: All right, guys. Bill Andrews: Okay. Dr. Bob: Hey, thank you so much for your time and thank you so much for all you know, Bill, all you've brought to the world. I will be seeing you soon and looking forward to every moment that we have together.

Hear beautiful stories about end of life. Dr. Bob and Veterinarian, Liz Fernandez, discuss how there are similarities in their end-of-life work that helps people, pets, and families who are dealing with end-of-life issues. Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Liz Fernandez website Dr. Bob: Liz Fernandez is a doctor who makes house calls. She gets to know her patients and families intimately, and she frequently provides counsel and guidance as her patients head toward the natural end of their lives. In many circumstances, she lovingly administers medication through an IV that allows her patients to fall asleep and die peacefully usually in the arms of their loved ones. What Dr. Fernandez does is legal and acceptable because she's a doctor of veterinarian medicine and her patients are mostly dogs and cats. Although I don't perform euthanasia which is illegal in this country, I am with many patients as they die peacefully after self-ingesting medication that allows them to have a quick and peaceful death. In many respects, Dr. Fernandez's practice is very similar to mine. We both drive all over the place to make house calls, we both develop very intimate relationships with our patients and families, and we both help to guide and counsel as our patients approach the natural end of their lives. In this episode, we share some of the beautiful and some of the challenging experiences that we've had, and we discuss how it affects us to be in these emotionally complex circumstances so often. I hope you find it interesting, informative, and meaningful in some way. Liz, thanks for coming on the show, and I'm looking forward to having you share some of your insights from your really fascinating career. Can you just share with me a little bit what is it like? You have a unique model of practice for a vet, and what's a typical day or typical few days for you? Liz Fernandez: I practice in Ventura County. I work with small animals, and I do house calls, and most of what I do is Chinese medicine acupuncture, so most of my clients, my patients are older. I may see anywhere between three to six patients a day, and I drive all over the county. Sometimes I keep it localized in a smaller area, but my radius is about 60 miles from my house so it could be anywhere in that to give you an idea. Yes, I drive about 30,000 miles a year- Dr. Bob: Which is kind of similar to me. It sounds like your work is in many ways similar to mine; going out and meeting with older patients and addressing the concerns that they and their families have and supporting them. Liz Fernandez: Right, and so I have ... Since I see them ... I see them. I'll spend an hour or so. Each appointment is about an hour unless it's an initial appointment and it's usually about two hours. I may be seeing them once a week, or once every other week, or once a month, so I get to know the clients quite well and as their animals, either dogs or cats, for the most part, start to age and get near to that point when they're going to have to make some decision, we've already had probably at least a few discussions if not more; just some in general and some more specific. It's nice because I do have that connection already with most of the clients that I work with, and that makes it a lot easier to move into that idea of now we may not be trying to get them better, we're just trying to keep them comfortable. Dr. Bob: Got it. So you have the conversations ideally upstream about what will happen when things change, and you're looking now at a comfort-focused end of life scenario. It's interesting because you have an option to help create a very peaceful end of life for your patients that we don't necessarily have. Not necessarily have, we don't have. We don't have euthanasia. It's not legal; it's not available. Fortunately in California now we do have the medical aid in dying through the end of life option app, so there is another conversation that can happen when people are open to it, but everybody is aware that euthanasia is a viable and acceptable option at the end of an animal's life. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I find it fascinating because with the animals, we almost more often than not, people demand it for a multitude of reasons; the most common being, "I don't want my pet to suffer." That I totally understand and I agree with, and I support them in those decisions. It's just fascinating that ... And part of it I guess is with people we have more options in terms of supportive care to keep people comfortable and just have somebody there 24/7. That's pretty very challenging for most people. I have had clients that have the ability to have somebody with their pet 24/7 offer doing whatever it is that they need to have done in a home situation. It's not like they're putting him in the hospital or something and not being with them, it's just that they can manage all of those little things like if they can't get up from by themselves that somebody can take them and help them to get up and go outside and if they're not continent then they can take care of that in terms of changing the bedding and that sort of thing in helping them. But that's not the norm. For most people, it's just not an option. What do you do if you can't be there or if don't know someone who can be there or afford to pay someone to be there, what do you do? This other option is available especially when there's no hope of improvement. And so that's what happens. Dr. Bob: It's interesting to think about those scenarios because it's just natural to make the comparisons, right? This is between people and animals, and if you have a person who needs care to manage their ADLs because they can't get up by themselves, they can't clean themselves. That's not enough to justify having their life end. For some people, it may be that the complexities of creating care- Liz Fernandez: The other part of that is that a lot of times, it's emotional least distressful for the clients because they realize their own limitations whether that be physical, emotional, financial. All of those things factor in, and so they wind up making a decision because not that they think it's what is necessary that the animal is that near to death that that's what is appropriate, but because the entire situation is such that they can't handle it. If you have an 85-year-old woman who's got 100-pound dog and she doesn't have anybody else to help or take care of it, she may be healthy within herself, but to be able to meet all the needs of a big dog- Dr. Bob: That's dangerous. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's dangerous. Or even somebody who's 50, but they have a bad back. Dr. Bob: That part like knowing that the dog is not or the animal is not necessarily imminent, that close to death, or maybe it's not even suffering that much, right? It may not be in pain, it may just have these limitations, and if the family was able to meet those needs even though the dog is not living its ideal life like a human being who's 90- Liz Fernandez: Right. A lot of people feel like if they can't get up if they can't do those things, that they are suffering, that it is not a life that they would want, so there is that. I would say that with most of my clients they do a really good job of trying to make things work, but on the other hand, most of them have co-morbidities that are ... Like if their back legs aren't working anymore, there's a good chance that they probably have some other issues going on whether that be kidney disease or sometimes some underlying, whether it's cancer or heart disease or other things that make it even more challenging. I honestly can say that I don't find myself in situations where I feel that it's inappropriate. Dr. Bob: Well, imagine if you did then you would find other solution. Liz Fernandez: Exactly. I mean, we each have to do what we feel in our heart is right or for us, but I also try and tell people that there's not necessarily an objective right or wrong. There's a right or wrong for you in this moment, but not necessarily a right or wrong that is somewhere posted in a book somewhere that says that this is the way you have to proceed. Because we have to be honest and compassionate with ourselves as well as in the whole situation. Dr. Bob: Well, I read your book Sacred Gifts of a Short Life: Uncovering the Wisdom of Our Pets End of Life Journeys, and it's really touching, it's really well done and smart. Liz Fernandez: Thank you. Dr. Bob: It was great stories and as I'm reading it, I so often I'm finding corollaries to my life and my practice and my thought processes. One of the things that was really poignant for me is your ... One of the stories, I think it comes up a number of times when people ask how they'll know when it's the right time. For me being a physician who assists some patients through medical aid in dying, there are times when people get a prescription for a life-ending medication, and one of the big questions that they have and that their families have is when will I know it's time? When will I know that it's the time to take this? What their experience or if they're struggling to go through is what your families are dealing with. The difference, I guess the difference in my situation with human beings is that they're the ones making these decisions for themselves, no one can make it for them. And they recognize that when they do take this medication, they may be robbing themselves or ... They're clearly shortening their life, but they may be robbing themselves of some relatively reasonable time, and they don't know. There's no way to absolutely predict what the future is going to hold and sometimes they'll be inclined to take the medication sooner because they're afraid that things will change and they'll lose their ability. They'll lose their mental ability, the physical ability, so there's this back and forth dialogue they have with themselves and questioning. Almost every single time, I've told them, "You'll know when it's time. No one's going to tell you it's time. You're going to know, and when you know it, you know it. There's been a couple of people out of the many dozen who I have been with who have still been slightly, slightly, hesitant, reluctant questioning it and even to the last hours. What I recognize is those people are the ones who have younger children. No matter what they do, separating any moment sooner than they absolutely have to is a challenge. Those are the ones that tend to be a struggle. But like you said, they know when it's time, sounds like your families come to a place where they just know now is the time. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, and I have definitely tried to work with people and something that I do talk about in the book as far as just ... Because even in our profession we have a tendency to, and as a profession, this is so, and I have tried to steer away from this, but we're the ones that like to tell people when it's time, and people like us to tell them oftentimes. What I have found throughout my career is that if there is not complete 100% choice that's made by the person who's involved with the pet, then they sometimes feel guilty, feel pushed, feel resentful that someone else told them that they needed to do something when they weren't ready. I try to avoid that and make sure that they are comfortable and that they are listening to that place within themselves that we each have that I think it's so important not just to listen in this situation but throughout our lives, that we start listening to that, that we begin to trust it, and then we can act on it. This is a situation that really invites us to do this in a wholehearted way, and if we have practice doing that throughout our lives, it becomes much easier. What I ask people to do is to try and get very quiet and feel into their body and have someone else perhaps even present with them and feel into their body with the idea that, "I'm going to euthanize my pet today," and then just feel what happens to them. The person who's with them can watch whether there's a tenseness that happens, whether there's a clenching or a contraction, or if there's a relaxation and opening up because the body is reacting to the deepest truth. I think that can be very helpful. I had had a couple of situations where I've been with somebody as we move through that process and I've reflected to them what I have seen, and in one situation I said when you get your poll body relaxed when you thought about just going ahead and letting Sophie go today. Then we talked a little bit longer because it didn't seem like she was ready to go ahead with that. But what I told her and what we talked about was that it really was okay that she felt that way. That it was getting really challenging and very difficult to take care of her. When she actually accepted the idea, so her body was just asking, inviting her to become okay with that as a possibility, and recognizing it and forgiving herself for having that feeling, for feeling like I can't do this another day. And yet there were some things that we could try, and we wound up trying them. And then would about two weeks later, things have deteriorated further, and she was very clear, and she had no question. But what her body actually was doing when she relaxed was not saying that it needed to happen today as much as it was saying that she needed to accept that as a possibility and that it was okay that she felt the way she did. Once she became okay with this feeling that, "I can't do it anymore," she actually found the strength to be able to go on a little longer. But he had to accept that within himself first. Very interesting. And the opposite happened. Both of these situations happened within probably two or three months of each other, and the other situation was that the lady just did not want to euthanize her pet. And she knew. I mean, there were all sorts of signs from the universe, and from her husband, and her husband had a dream, and all of these different things and she just knew, and he was really not doing well, but she just couldn't let go. I said to her because again when we went through the process, not doing it is what gave her the most relaxation in her body. And I said, okay. Consciously and in her brain, I said, "Be okay with that. It's okay that you can't do it today. Because sooner or later if you don't do it for him, he's going to do it himself." And he's not really suffering; he was just in a point of not really eating anymore, but just not moving. You know what I mean? He wasn't in any kind of excruciating pain that we needed to address or anything. And once she could finally just say to herself that it was okay, she could forgive yourself for not being able to do what she really felt was the best interest of her pet. Because she just loved him so much and just, it's like ... When she completely surrendered to that, she sat with him for a few minutes and then she said, "Let's go ahead." Dr. Bob: It's beautiful. Liz Fernandez: Yeah, it's quite fascinating, but again if you start to listen deeply and can accept whatever happens or whatever wants to happen and trust it, then I think that we do have the answers within ourselves to make these difficult decisions. Dr. Bob: Actually I appreciate that you shared that. Because on a couple of levels, I think what you're sharing is so vitally important. On the one hand, I think that's what we need. Everybody needs ... Moving to the human realm, we all need to be able to go deep inside and become comfortable with the idea that one day we're going to die. Liz Fernandez: Yes, just have a good relationship with death. Dr. Bob: Yes. And not to say, "Okay, I'm ready to die." Not to say that I've got everything prepared or that emotionally, financially, legally, or whatever. But to just understand and feel this sense of acceptance and a sense of calm about it, and if you can't get there, then the work needs to revolve around figuring out why what is it that's keeping you from feeling that sense of acceptance or calm about it. But once you can get there, then everything is a bit easier, I think it's brighter, a little bit more ... It's almost like it's bonus time. Now I've accepted this; there's my ultimate endpoint, now let's get on with life. Liz Fernandez: Right. Part of why I wrote the book was not only just for clients, but for practitioners and then just the general public. Because the whole idea is what my book tries to talk about and what I'm passionate about is just that. It's the idea of having a relationship with death that makes it less scary. Be able to embrace it, to dance with it, to recognize it everywhere. Things are dying all the time. We push it away so much we deny even the idea. No one wants to say the word. It becomes this big scary boogeyman and the big monster under the bed. Dr. Bob: It does not have to be that way. Liz Fernandez: That's a cultural thing. It's like can we just start just have a keep the conversation going. Dr. Bob: And I think we are. I mean, that's part of what we're doing, right? That's why we have this ... That's why I have a life and death conversation. There are people like us who are not only comfortable talking about it but shine when we're talking about it. Because it's like being part of a club where you understand where this is coming from, where this conversation comes from. Not because we're morbid or want to talk about dying or don't love life, it's because we do love life. And we love life enough to say, "And one day this is going to end." And that's going to be okay too because that's We can maybe by doing this, by having these conversations and people listen to it and they think, "Wow, that's an interesting way of looking at it." Liz Fernandez: Broadening the perspectives because there is a sacredness to it. There is this deep sense of ... I mean, it pulls us into silence. I had the opportunity a couple of weeks ago to speak to a group of high school students who are interested in veterinarian medicine, and this is the topic we talked about. We talked about ... I just described the state that one gets into when one watches a sunset, and you're just completely present. That's kind of what meditation is, but it's also what happens when we are communing with death if you will. I mean, if we're present with someone who's dying, and that silence, it's just so full. There's so much life and love there. Dr. Bob: And sadness, right? There's loss, there's all of it, but it's the whole continuum. Liz Fernandez: It's all of it, exactly. And that's the other thing that I try and really focus on. It's the idea that it's not either or. You don't have to deny anything. You don't have to deny that you feel devastated or just horrible for whatever the experience is, and at the same time at some point, everyone who's ever gone through a grieving process knows that there is this ... All of a sudden flash will get in your head, and you'll start smiling and laughing when you're thinking of this person who you miss so dearly. You're feeling it all. That's what I mean I think it's important. That we allow ourselves to feel all of that. It's like clouds. They come, and they go, and your feelings and your emotions are going to be all over the map as part of the grieving process. One of the [inaudible 00:26:09], a friend of mine recently who passed away. She was very aware, and she lived so fully. I have another client whose dog is ... They called me a month ago thinking it was time and it's not yet, and they're just kind of writing with it. The idea to be able to live fully knowing very clearly because you have a terminal diagnosis, that your time is very limited, is ... I've seen only either in animals because they don't get all hung up, but in people, those that have really, really accepted the idea, they're older, and they can live like you said, very fully because of that. Dr. Bob: Yeah. For me that's a big part of my mission, and it sounds like of yours, is to create this comfort to allow the loved ones who are part of this experience to have it be as peaceful and potentially transformative as possible, so they can go on the rest of their lives feeling a sense of peace about it, feeling a sense that they did everything right, that they did the best possible in support of their loved one. Yes, it's important to make it comfortable for the person who's dying and to reduce the fear and to reduce the struggle, but so much the loved ones go on for years or decades having to carry that experience with them. It's a beautiful experience if it has been well explained and accepted, and the processing has been allowed to happen, it can be amazing what it opens up for them or allows them to experience. Which is why it's so it's so unfortunate and challenging one when people die suddenly. Or animals when death happens suddenly, and people haven't been able to prepare. You know what my solution for that is? Always be prepared. I think about that. I was in [inaudible 00:28:38] for 20 plus years. From early on in my career and in my adulthood, it became very clear to me how quickly things could change, how random things were, and so I guess I got comfortable with this idea that I could be just removed from life instantly or traumatized. I made a very conscious decision to tell people what I wanted them to know. To not leave things hanging. I'm almost to the point where my kids when I would leave the house they, "I know dad, I know you love me. I know. Okay." We have to hug again, and ... Liz Fernandez: They say when they're 13, right? Dr. Bob: Yeah, but I don't care. This is my thing. Liz Fernandez: They will appreciate it. Dr. Bob: Let's hope so. Liz Fernandez: No, I absolutely agree. That is hard when people leave us suddenly. It is wise to be really authentic in your feelings and leave things ... What makes your people know. I have always done the same. It's like, is there anything I need to say to anybody that I know? I try and do that. Dr. Bob: Well, who knows. Maybe this is just a reminder for somebody just to do it a little bit more. I feel like people who ... Well, anyone who has a pet certainly, or anybody who is interested in exploring the experiences in the mind and insights of someone like you who's around death on a daily bases would benefit from getting a hold of your book. We'll put a link to the book on our website, which is integratedmdcare.com. Once this episode airs, then it will be available. I thought it was wonderful. I gained a lot of insights out of it. I'm sure many other people have as well. Liz Fernandez: Well, great. I am so pleased to hear that and thank you for offering to put it on the website. Dr. Bob: Well, Liz, thank you again for taking the time out of your day. Liz Fernandez: And thank you. I really appreciate it. All right. Dr. Bob: All right. Thanks, everyone for tuning in. We'll talk to you soon.

  A common pitfall that Product Owners need to be aware of is behaving with authority they don’t have.  A lot of people refer to this as PO’s and PM’s thinking they are the “CEO of the Product”. Bob Galen joins us on this episode to talk about some errors he sees in this approach and discuss from his recent post. We also discuss some ways in which Product Owners need to think and behave in a manner that is similar to that of a CEO.  Do we put it to rest? Let us know what you think.   Feedback: twitter - @deliveritcast email - deliveritcast@gmail.com   Links: PO Coaching and Consulting - seek taiju Bob - Let’s eradicate bad product ownership, part-1,2 Martin Eriksson - Product Managers – You Are Not the CEO of Anything Marty Cagan - CEO of the Product Revisited Ale Carlos - Stop saying Product Management is like being the CEO of your own product Mind the Product - What we Learned at #mtpcon San Francisco 2018    

Chelsea Berler is a successful entrepreneur, and author and an inspiration for many people. Tragically, she is also dying from breast cancer at the age of 34, but you won't hear Chelsea describe what she's going through as a tragedy nor is she a victim. Listen and please share this episode with others who need to hear it.   Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text. We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Contact Learn more about Chelsea's nonprofit organization, The Foye Belle Foundation, by watching the video below and visiting her website:  Foyebelle website Transcript Dr. Bob: Chelsea Berler is a friend, a successful entrepreneur, and author and an inspiration for many people. Tragically, she is also dying from breast cancer at the age of 34, but you won't hear Chelsea describe what she's going through as a tragedy and she certainly isn't a victim. Dr. Bob: She has an amazing perspective on life and on death, which she shares with me during this interview. Anyone dealing with life challenges or has a loved one who is will certainly benefit from listening to Chelsea's heartfelt and loving words. As well as from the book that she recently published 'The Yellow House on the Left'. Listen in. Dr. Bob: Looking at your picture, your Skype profile and it looks exactly like you, but I'm assuming that that's ... I wouldn't see all that flowing blonde hair. Chelsea Berler: I look very different right now, I'd probably look like a teenager going through puberty because I am on some massive steroids and I'm getting hair where I haven't had hair before, and of course my hair's starting to grow back from the chemo. So I'm looking mighty, mighty different these days. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I imagine that that's just one of the many lessons, right? Chelsea Berler: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: To learn humility not get too attached to certain appearances. Chelsea Berler: You're right. Dr. Bob: Well Chelsea, thanks for reaching out. I mean we're having this conversation because you had reached out to me recently just to touch base and honestly, I didn't know that you were dealing with any of this. That was a big surprise to learn that you were on this journey and I appreciate it in the thing that stuck out what your phrase that you wrote was, I would love to see you do more with people that are directly in the path of your work. Dr. Bob: Would you be willing to share a little bit about what that means to you? What's your thinking around wanting to connect with people who are directly in the path? What does that look like? Chelsea Berler: You know, it was so interesting how it kind of came to be is, of course, we've been connected for years and had worked together in some capacity or the next, and we play in the same circle of really great people. You were on my mind the other day because I was ... One thing I've been spending a lot of time doing is listening to podcasts and one of the biggest reasons is, is because of my current state, I have this ringing in my ears pretty consistently. Chelsea Berler: What helps is listening to something or listening to music or things of that sort, I was actually on the podcast app and just trying to search for a podcast that was inspirational, podcast about death and dying and all that. And I thought, "Oh, Bob has one." I went and looked up, and I started listening to all men. I really enjoyed them, and then I got to thinking, you know, it'd be so great to listen into other people's stories that are going through death and dying. Chelsea Berler: I'm assuming, in some situations people often aren't in the mood to be sharing any stories or feeling good enough to do that, oh who knows, young or old. But I thought maybe there was, and maybe there was an opportunity for you to be able to add some of those stories, and I thought, oh, I would also love to share mine just because it's rather unique to in hopes that it will also help someone else that may be in that same situation looking for a podcast or trying to find something like that, that kind of helps them with the process as well. So that's kind of how I came to reach out and be like, "Hey, Bob!" Dr. Bob: I'm so glad that you did and I'm so glad that you were open and that you're feeling up to doing it, I know that it's kind of day by day in terms of how that goes and so thank you. I spent a little time over the last couple of days reading some of your posts and the articles that you have on Huffington Post and just kind of getting more familiar with your journey. Dr. Bob: So first of all, you're an amazing writer and I knew that before but I'm seeing a different style, and it's a different theme of course but your ability to express yourself and the pain of it, the wonder of it, all of it, just the full catastrophe in the middle of the night. So I appreciate that you're willing to share and I know that there are people who are benefiting from that, everything that you've put out there. Dr. Bob: A lot of people just kind of shrink into their own world and don't want to contribute it anymore. Thank you for being somebody who's not doing that, who's continuing to shine your light out in the world despite the challenges that you're dealing with daily. Chelsea Berler: Yeah, and something to piggyback off that and I know that we'll get into this story a bit, but I actually decided right when I found out I have been writing and so I have another book with that, it's going to be done this week, I'm having helped from a writer that actually helped me write my last one, and it's basically on death and dying. So in all the right ways and it was mostly because I had these Huffington Post articles that I never in a million years thought I would be dying from this cancer. We all were focusing on a cure, which was very much the what was going to happen. Chelsea Berler: Since that didn't we pulled together these Huffington Post articles and wrote, she's been helping write this next book that will be out soon too, and I think that it'll be a really great contributor. It's going to be called 'The Yellow House on the Left,' so that'll be fun too. So I'll keep you posted on that. Dr. Bob: When do you anticipate that it'll be available? Chelsea Berler: I think that it'll go to print end of next week and then it'll be about two weeks until we can get that in our hands. We've been rocking and rolling on that, and I think it was just one of those things where I thought, it now is time to put all of these things into writing because I do think that there will be people that would be helped by these stories and my story and I wanted to get it out as quickly as I could, but I was like, "Gosh, could I actually make this happen?" Because day-to-day my challenges get worse for sure and so I think we'll make it. Dr. Bob: Awesome. I can't wait in that, and I'm looking forward to seeing it and reading it, and of course trying to spread it, spread it out to those who will benefit from it. Chelsea Berler: Thank you. Dr. Bob: Why don't you tell listeners what's going on, what do you, what are you dealing with day-to-day right now? Chelsea Berler: I turned 33 last year in March and my husband at that time was traveling every week to Europe for work, so he would spend basically Monday through Friday in London and Paris for work and then he comes home every week. That's been our life forever, he travels during the week, and we see each other on the weekends, and it's been lovely, that's the life that we love to live. Chelsea Berler: He was traveling a lot, and so we decided I'd love to take a big trip and go to Europe, and in lieu of him having to come home for a couple of weeks and kind of see his life there, following him around, enjoy some time in Europe because I had never been, and so we were really excited about that. Chelsea Berler: So came May, I flew over there, and I had the best trip of my life, it was truly so much fun. It was great to just see not only how busy, and crazy his life and lifestyle was over there–like the guy is like the energizer bunny–but it was just fun to just immerse yourself in another country for a while, and so we did that. That was a lot of fun. But I noticed while I was there, I was like, I could not keep up with him and to be honest, I can barely keep up with him and how like he does have high energy and I'm probably more chill. Chelsea Berler: I just noticed I was really tired and I thought, it could be jet lag and the time difference. We were between London and Paris, so it's six, seven hours difference and maybe I was trying to kind of get used to it. Then when I got back, there was about a month in between where I was still really tired. But again, I just thought, maybe I wasn't eating well or whatever, and so I started working on a program with a friend [Christie Smear 00:10:26], you probably know her. Dr. Bob: I do know her. Chelsea Berler: Wells Fargo or The Wealthy Thought Leader can. Anyways, I started doing like a cleanse with her and like I was feeling really good, and my energy was a little backup, so I was excited about that. Then in July I noticed a lump in my armpit, and it literally like, just was like in my armpit and I thought, "Well, that's weird," I'm young, you know, at the time of 33 years old and so it didn't even phase me that it could be like something crazy, but I thought, "I'll get it checked out and see what's up." Chelsea Berler: So I had just a regular gynecologist appointment that was already scheduled like my yearly exam because when you're 33, they don't have you do mammograms or anything until you're at least 40. I went in for it in end of July, I think, and she's like, "You know, it's probably nothing." Like she felt around, made sure everything looked okay. She's like, "This is probably just a lump that it's no big deal." So she said, but of course, we want to go ahead and by protocol and have them check it out, do an ultrasound on it, and maybe a biopsy just depending. Chelsea Berler: I was like, "Yeah, no problem," so we weren't really quick on scheduling it. I think I had it scheduled like a week later and they did a biopsy, and when the doctor went in and did it, he said, "You know, I'm going to do a couple more." I didn't really think much of it. So he did a couple of different biopsies in that area, and then about a week later, the doctor called my gynecologist called and said, "Do you want to come in and talk about your results?" I was like, "That's weird. Can you just let me know, you know, what you found?" She said, "Well, it all came back cancer," and I said, "What does that mean? Like cancer? Like what?" Chelsea Berler: She goes like, "I don't know, I can't interpret the results, but I need to put you in touch with an oncologist that you can meet with to discuss the outcome." At that point, I just broke down in tears, and I handed the phone to my husband who was drifting fully, and he had, of course, a lot of questions. "Can you give us more ..." I don't know anything other than these biopsies tested positive for cancer and she didn't know too much about the type or whatever. Chelsea Berler: We ended up connecting with, so she gave us a referral for an oncologist, and so it was a week after that, that we were to meet them. So we, of course, were like for an entire week, knew nothing other than we just have to meet with this doctor and we'd go to meet with her, and there was actually, we live in the Gulf of Mexico, and there was a hurricane before that ended up not hitting us. But of course when something like that happens, everything closes, and we didn't even think two thinks about it. So we went to the doctor's office, and there's a big sign that says they're closed. Chelsea Berler: The day we were supposed to figure out what was going on, we were standing in front of the doctor's office with like, "Sorry, hurricane happened last night. We're not open today." We came back home, and we were just like, this is the worst feeling in the world to know like someone found cancer and you hang, don't know anything about it and you can't get into the doctor. Chelsea Berler: The next morning we called of course and said we had an appointment, it looks like yeah, we're closed. No one called us. And they said, "Well, come in today at 4:00," because we basically begged them like, "Can someone just tell us what's going on at this point?" That was kind of a frustrating moment because it just felt like we were in limbo a bit for a couple of weeks. Chelsea Berler: Finally we met with her that next day at 4:00. She is amazing; we have the best oncologist ever. Basically, she sat there and said, "Tell me what you know so far so I can fill in the gaps." She told us that I would test it positive for triple negative breast cancer, and she wanted to go ahead and do all the genetic testing and figure out this type of cancer and rate it and all of that. She couldn't do that until we did like a full PET Scan and did all of the more specific test to kind of understand what we were dealing with. Chelsea Berler: We went ahead and did a pretty extensive genetic testing that all came back negative. Thankfully, because I also have several sisters, a mom, it had been impacted, so we know that I didn't have it genetically. Thankfully that was great. But it also stumped us because she said, for me being so young and we're having triple negative, it's awfully confusing how one like me would get something like this. Chelsea Berler: Then the other thing was we went ahead and did the PET Scan, and it looked to be pretty severe. One thing about triple negative breast cancer is it's a pretty aggressive cancer. Triple-negative breast cancer is probably the hardest one I think to combat a bit because it's not hormonal based and a lot of people like that I did chemo with were much older than me and all hormonal based breast cancer. Chelsea Berler: We were kind of dealing with that from both ends, but we ended up having the PET Scan, and everything, and she called it initially early stage 3C, but basically I'm stage four because I could have done clinical trials and all of this other stuff. We basically classified as stage for triple negative breast cancer at the time. Dr. Bob: Where else was it in addition to the lump that they had biopsied in the breast, where else at that point? Chelsea Berler: It was in my lymph nodes or is in my lymph nodes in my armpit, and then also we saw activity above the clavicle, and it was pretty tiny activity above the clavicle. They felt really confident in my care because we could do a double mastectomy although it was only in one breast, I told them right away I was like, if we're taking one, take it both. What we were going to do, the plan was is to do six months of chemo to shrink everything, and we felt really confident about that, and then we wanted to do a double mastectomy, remove the lymph nodes and then the rest of the tiny activity we saw above the clavicle we wanted to hit with radiation, and so I had a team of a surgeon, the oncologist, and the radiologist, and we all got together, they all were like super confident, like kick this. Chelsea Berler: We did the six months of chemo, I started that in September and not only did it go well, I mean I was sick as a dog and it was awful, but it went so well that when we met with our surgeon, because we were meeting with our surgeons several times, like once a month we would go in and get a mammogram and check everything and see how things are progressing. This last time when I was finishing chemo, not only did the tumors shrink so much that she said, "You don't even need a mastectomy anymore, I can do a lumpectomy and remove everything." She felt so confident, and our surgeon is amazing, she's like in her early, I think she's in her early 70's, she has seen it all it's just like, well-recommended around here are amazing. Chelsea Berler: She was just like so confident, like don't worry about thing, I think let's do a lumpectomy. We left that appointment thinking, "Holy crap, this is amazing," and they were raving about how amazing chemo is in that situation because should I have not want the chemo away we would be removing all kinds of things trying to get this cancer out. Chelsea Berler: Anyway, so my last mammogram I did was December or January. No, wait, February. That was when my last chemo was February 14th actually Valentine's Day. We did that last mammogram, and we got to go in and see it, she's like, "Come and look at this." She literally put like the pictures of the mammogram, but there was never a moment that we talked about, it was so tiny for a moment. We're excited. We had to talk about death or dying, because it wasn't even on this entire journey, because no one has been talking about that potentially happen. Chelsea Berler: There was never a moment where we talked about this could kill me, there was never a moment where we had to talk about death or dying because it wasn't even on the table. Like there was no one talking about that as being something that could potentially happen because the plan and what they were working with they just felt really confident about it. Dr. Bob: That's really interesting. I wonder if you were 73 instead of 33 if that conversation would have been different. Chelsea Berler: Yeah. Maybe. Maybe I had a lot of issues through the chemotherapy process like my white blood count was ... I was struggling a lot, so I ended up having to skip several chemos, and so they called me this unicorn. They were like, you know how you meet people and like for example, you hear a herd of horses, and you know their horses, you hear, you can hear what they sound like, right? But then you look back, and there are horses, but there's one unicorn. This unicorn that's not quite fitting in any pot, and so I was basically a bit of a problem child for them from the start when it came to even the chemo process because of course I'm with all these other patients that are going through this process, and mostly they're going through the way they need to be going through it. Chelsea Berler: I felt like almost every time I would go I would have these issues of like not being able to get chemo or being too weak or whatever. I'm like, "I'm the youngest one here by like a lot." Like I would say the next person in line in terms of age was probably in their 50's that I was with, so I was like, "Why is the young person, am I having so many problems?" I got through it, and it was so successful that we were also a bit surprised because we were worried that it wouldn't be because of the issues that I had been having. Chelsea Berler: My tumors and lymph nodes are shrunk so much that it was just amazing. At that point we scheduled surgery, so we have to wait at least four weeks after your last chemo to have surgery, so I think we scheduled it for like five and a half weeks after that. I had my birthday March 13th, I turned 34, and two days after that I got put in the hospital because ... A week prior I started getting these really weird headaches, and they would come on for about five minutes, and they would be just extremely painful for like five minutes, almost like I was having a contraction in my head, and then it would eat often go away. Chelsea Berler: It would happen like almost 10 times a day, and I was feeling like I kept saying to people like, I'm having these weird headaches, I'm having these weird headaches. I was telling the doctor, and she said, it could be, or coming off of chemo. It could be then the anxiety I was kinda having from going through this for the last six months, we couldn't quite put our finger on it. But because as a cancer patient you're always high priority and may want to make sure they're running every test possible. Chelsea Berler: She's like, "Let's do an MRI. Let's make sure nothing's going on in there. Let's scan your brain, whatever." I did a couple of MRIs; nothing showed up. I did an MRV, nothing showed up, and I was beginning to be really frustrated because everyone kept saying to me like, we can't find anything. I started feeling a little crazy like something is not right, I don't get headaches. I've never been someone to get headaches ever in my life. Chelsea Berler: To be honest, I've been a very healthy person my whole life, not ever breaking a bone or having any major issues but they couldn't quite figure it out. We went and saw a neurologist and just to meet with them, and of course he looks at me and he's like, "I don't know what's wrong with you," but basically our last resort, I talked to oncologist, and we're going to do a spinal tap and see if anything comes up. Chelsea Berler: He said, "It probably doesn't, and it's probably something that's causing some issues. It could be from coming off the chemo, we don't know, but everyone's kind of like give it some time." They had put me on some medicine right away just to try and help with the headaches; I think they might've put me on steroids right away. I did the spinal tap, and it was a Friday morning, so it was basically two days after my 34th birthday, and the neurologist actually called me and said, "I need to check you into the emergency room, the hospital, because it's possible you might have fungal meningitis." Chelsea Berler: They weren't entirely sure, but they were sending off a pathology report, but it came back with what they had so far until they could have someone else read it that it could be fungal meningitis. He said, "That's something that you have to be really careful of." So come in, and I didn't really think too thinks about it. But that morning my husband, my stepson plays for Mizzou, and he was playing in Louisiana, and I was encouraging my husband to fly to Louisiana for the day and night to see him play baseball because I've been sick, we've missed so many of his ballgames. Chelsea Berler: I was like, I'm fine. We've been doing all these tests to figure out these headaches. I'll go do this by tap, like no biggie. Please go, you know, so I spent the day with my mom, thank goodness she's local here, so I get to see her every day. So she came with me, it was no big deal. We came home, the neurologist called and said, "Come in, we need to check you in." Chelsea Berler: I didn't think anything of it, so we get checked in the hospital, and everyone's wearing masks, and I'm realizing, oh, so they think like if I have this meningitis that it could spread. Like I didn't know much about fungal meningitis. Dr. Bob: Not many people do–don't feel bad. It's not something the general population knows much about. Chelsea Berler: It was so weird, and so I realized that when we pulled in to the hospital to the emergency area, the neurologist came out and met us and brought us in and so then I thought, "Oh, so this might be kind of a big deal." I called my husband. I was like, "Listen, I'm okay and fine and good. I want you to go to this game." He just landed in Louisiana, he had flown there, and he's like, "Heck no. I'm turning around and coming back." He literally walked off the plane, walk down another one and started flying home. Chelsea Berler: At this time we got checked into the hospital, everyone's wearing mask, they had to put these like, and mind you, this is the first time I've ever been in a hospital bed before. I've never been in an ER, nothing like that. Dr. Bob: Even through all of this, even throughout the treatments and everything. You never ended up in that ER, that's wonderful. Chelsea Berler: That was definitely one thing I never ever had to do, but they had to pad each side of the bed just in case I had a seizure because they said, "This is fungal meningitis, that's pus," I'm like, this is blowing my mind right now. But no one's really telling us anything other than that, and with my Google searches, I'm like, "Okay, so if I have this meningitis, okay, we'll figure this out, whatever." Chelsea Berler: I got there, it was probably about 2:00 when we checked in, and we spent, of course, all day there, and we didn't hear back from the doctor. She's waiting on this pathology report, same with a neurologist. So we haven't heard anything other than they're giving me some steroids, they're just making me comfortable, they're helping with my headaches and my mom, and I just hung out there. Chelsea Berler: Finally, we took over a mask because we were like, "Oh, we can't even breathe through these things," and mom's like, "If you have it, I already have it because I've been with you." We just kinda chilled out and Mark, my husband arrived around 5:30, so he comes in, and we're still sitting there visiting and then, of course, my doctor comes in. I was surprised to see her because it was, gosh, it was late, it was after dinner time I think. I was thinking, "Well, I'll probably just see her in the morning because it's so late." Chelsea Berler: Well anyways, I think what really happened was she found out the results of my spinal tap, which was that the cancer spread to my brain and spinal fluid and that was causing these massive headaches. She, I think was, to be honest with you, heartbroken and I think it was hard for her to come visit us at the hospital because she came in and she normally is like all done up, and she's just amazing, and she had no makeup on. You could tell she had been crying. Chelsea Berler: She leaned over, and she had the mask on, and she said, "I'm taking this off because you don't have fungal meningitis. I'm pretty sure you don't have fungal meningitis, and I can't talk through it." She took off her mask, and she was explaining what they call LC to us, which is where the cancer spreads to your spinal and brain fluid. It was that moment where, of course, my husband had a million questions, and I'm sitting there like, "What is happening?" Chelsea Berler: My mom, she does a little laid on top of me, like a hen and just wanted to just lay on me and she was of course crying, and I was crying, and I wasn't really processing like what she was saying. The doctor was crying, and finally, Mark said to her, "Can we step outside?" Because I think he was just, I have so many questions, and I think he wanted to understand what was going on before they could finish talking to me about it. I told them to of course go out and talk about it, he and the doctor and so he did and kind of learned what this LC is and what to expect and what that means. Chelsea Berler: That was literally the first point where we were like, wow, like, so there's no option, this is terminal. We were shocked that especially given the news that we had just gotten. Dr. Bob: Yeah, a little incredible roller coaster that you had to be hanging onto. Chelsea Berler: Yeah. I mean and surgery was scheduled for that Friday, so we were actually going to have surgery that Friday. It literally happened like we just found out before that, and I think it's like this, the LC is like a two percent chance, super rare, super crazy. Again, you hear a herd of horses; you think they're all horses and there's one unicorn that's me that just has never really quite made sense through this whole process. Dr. Bob: Chelsea, that was just like six weeks ago?  Chelsea Berler: Yeah, so my birthday was March 13th, I was in the hospital March 15th is when we found out. Yeah, I think. It was just recently. Dr. Bob: LC is the actual name for it, it's leptomeningeal carcinomatosis, and I think there's another name called neoplastic meningitis and essentially it's when tumor has gotten through that barrier, through the blood-brain barrier and it's around the brain and the different, the little sheets that cover the brain and the spinal cord. I imagined what they saw in that spinal tap was a lot of protein and a lot of things that didn't belong there and probably some cells, the cancer cells and that might've just really confused them so they couldn't quite figure out what to make of it at first. Dr. Bob: Wow. What's it? You went from like totally thrilled that all the struggle that you had gone through with the chemotherapy and all of that was worth it. You were now looking at the next phase which was a surgery, and you know feeling hopeful about having eaten this. Then a few days later you're given the news that it's terminal and there's no cure. Chelsea Berler: Yeah, it's crazy. It was really interesting and as I've been writing this book, reflecting on the whole process again, just like going through it, knowing that there was that here like we were all very much like a focus on that. There was never this like other option or other like that this could kill you. It was, of course, surprising, to say the least, but also it's one of those things that I think about too, and know that nothing is promised. Your life isn't promised and your days aren't promised, and no one said you're going to live to be 100 or 90 or whatever the case might be. Chelsea Berler: I think people assume, of course, we all assume we'll have a big long life, but the reality is, that's not the case. The more I thought about it, the more I thought I've had such an amazing life, I have done such amazing things. I got to live as long as I could, and I continued to, and I'm so thankful for that. I think that it's really opened my eyes even more so to just a life well lived and sharing that with people, knowing that your tomorrow is never promised and the next day isn't either. Chelsea Berler: For people that walk around thinking that they're going to live a long life, I hope they do but knowing that ... that's not the case, sometimes for people and it's not for me. So really reflecting on the time I still have left, it has been fun, to say the least in terms of just living each day, however, I want to live it and no restrictions right now. I have been eating a lot of pizza rolls, and that's been fun. Pop tarts, I bring it back to pop tart. Dr. Bob: I think it's good as they used to be. Chelsea Berler: Funny story is I thought to myself, what are some things that I remember as a child that I just love so much that I've refrained from, from so many years because I've eaten healthy because I wanted to be a really healthy person. Of course, when I was a teenager I ate all that junk food and I thought, there are these things that I really wanted to eat like lucky charms. Chelsea Berler: Then, of course, I wanted to get some pop tarts and Oreos and things like that. I was showing my husband, there are things that we're transitioning to him like how to order groceries online to make his life easier, so I've been showing him those types of things, and it's kind of dangerous because now that I'm on steroids too, [inaudible 00:38:09]. So I'm always ordering groceries. Dr. Bob: Do you have Uber Eats by you? Chelsea Berler: We do, but we have not used it, I should set that up. I ordered pop tarts, and I was so excited, and I sat down, and I opened the first one, and I started eating it. I had toasted the first one, and I was like, "Gosh, this doesn't near as good as I thought it was going to be," like I was really excited about it. And then I thought it was a little bit of a Debbie Downer; I was like, this I thought used to be so much better. Chelsea Berler: As I started eating them then I was like, "Okay, they're kind of delicious." Yeah, I've been doing that in divulging a bit in food, but you know it's funny because you think about those things and you refrain from so many things because you want to be healthier, to be better, to be good at it. I think that absolutely we should all be healthier and not be eating pop tarts. Dr. Bob: Every day at least. Chelsea Berler: Exactly, but I do think that, as humans, we need to enjoy the simple delegacies of life and not refrain from too much because I think there's so much happiness and little silly things like that, that I think can bring someone great joy just even in little morsel, even a little chocolate here and there, whatever. But it brings me back to those things that I think, gosh, I didn't, I have a pop tart if I wanted a pop tart. I think more people should probably have that mindset with things these days because again, you just don't know what could happen. I mean, you can go from one extreme to the next. Chelsea Berler: The other thing that I am so fortunate about is there are so many tragedies in life. There were people die suddenly and quickly, and you can't say goodbye, you can't prepare. They're just gone. I am so thankful that I have this time with my family, my close friends. I have been so enjoying being able to reconnect with people and share things with people and talk about memories and all of those things. Chelsea Berler: I'm also in that place of a great deal of peace, being able to have peace with people and have this time with the LC diagnosis. It can be weeks; it could potentially be months. We actually stopped treatment; we were doing spinal taps where we were doing chemo in my spine and then chemo pills. But none of that is proven to be effective, it could possibly be effective in terms of lengthening my life maybe a little bit, but it was actually causing a great deal of pain. Chelsea Berler: The spinal taps were really painful for me because I have a lot of inflammation. We were spending three out of five days at the hospital between doctors' appointments and the treatments. We decided to stop everything about a week ago just because it was just like, this is not how I want to spend my time. Dr. Bob: And that happens, I think it happens so frequently as people or they continue on this path because that's what's recommended and there's no other option, and this is sort of direct or directed down this path with uncertainty, there's a very uncertain benefit and likely not a great benefit, but what's definite is that you are giving up your time, the time that you have the precious time that you have with your family and your friends and the piece of just being able to stay in the environment that's comforting to you and to ... Dr. Bob: I honor you for making that decision, and I imagine that has given you some additional sense of peace of not being back in that world. Chelsea Berler: It's been good. My husband and I discussed it at great detail because we basically asked the question to the doctor if I continue to do these treatments, is there a greater than 50% chance that they're working or less than 50% chance they're working? She said, "Less than 50% chance," and she's like, "I'm not even sure they're doing anything," and because this LC is so rare that it's basically, she's basically saying, "Let's just try it and see if it extends your life," and I was just like, "Let's just stop."  Dr. Bob: Let's just not, yeah. Chelsea Berler: She was really cool about it, she's been just amazing at like, "What do you guys want at this point?" I was so sick of taking so many pills and all of that that I was just like, I'm throwing in the towel. Especially, I mean if there were ... if she could prove to us that it was helping clearly I'd want to extend my life but of course not. I've noticed, daily I am declining just in little things like my legs aren't working as great as they should be working and stuff like that. Chelsea Berler: We started hospice this week, but mostly it's we decided to do that because I want to be as independent as possible in our home while I can. So getting the help that I need with walkers or things like that to be able to continue to get around as much as I can. Between my mom and my husband, of course, they're taking care of us or taking care of me, so I don't need the nurse and the CNA here or anything like that right now. Chelsea Berler: Being able to have their help just with this advice and stuff around the house has been really great. We started that process, which has been really amazing by the way, that kind of care. I think more than anything like just being able to decide how I want to spend today and whether that be, this interview or listening to podcasts or reading something or my husband has been taking me for drives, and that's been fun just to get out. Chelsea Berler: I get tired pretty quickly, but being able to just get out and get some sun on my face has been awesome but just choosing how I want to spend that time is really important I think for anyone probably in this situation. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I imagine your husband has working less, kind of, at this point, spending more time with you. Chelsea Berler: Actually, when we found out in September of my diagnosis he stopped traveling completely, he has just been working from home, and he works with such an amazing company that has just been supporting him and like you do whatever you need to do, work from home, whatever. So he's actually been home full time, and that's been amazing, and we've both been trying to ... I own my company, and so I've been working as much as I can, we're working on transitioning it to someone that's been with me for seven years. Chelsea Berler: That is my heart, and he's taking over my company, and I'm going to be running it going forward in that has been so amazing, so I've been helping with that and just doing as much as I can during the day to get him set. When all that's good and finished, he's good to go. My husband's been trying to live, a bit of a normal life I guess, if you will, just I'm encouraging him to do a little bit of work in the morning, and while we can, I think that it's good to feel human in that way. Chelsea Berler: But we've been spending a lot of really great quality time together where we talk about the best conversations that we've just never had to talk about before, like death and dying. About an afterlife, about spirituality and it's, of course, deepened our relationship together and having those conversations, things that some people probably have them I'd assume, but I guess we just had never talked a lot about it. Chelsea Berler: He's older than I am and so in my head I always thought that I would be his caregiver and take care of him and of course everything's changed, and so now I'm worried about leaving him because there's so many things he doesn't know about, just household stuff and add order groceries and dog food that we have on auto pay, those kinds of things that I've been working really hard to make sure he is set because I worry about him because he hasn't had to really manage those things. Dr. Bob: That's really sweet of you, you worried about him. Chelsea Berler: I always thought in my head that, I love being a caregiver for and I'm a very compassionate person, and so I just always like to take care of people, of other people, and I never thought that it would be people taking care of me, I guess. It's been a little bit hard to get used to that, but he has done an amazing job. I can't imagine going through something like this with anyone else, and it's really interesting how you look at a relationship when something like this happens and how things changed in such a dramatic way and how you're cared for and how amazing he's been as a husband all these years that we've been together. But just how he has to take care of a dying wife now. Chelsea Berler: He has just been so phenomenal and amazing, I can't imagine doing it with anyone else. So one thing that was really important to me when I first started this process was when I was going into this chemo room is one thing that was super shocking was, there was a lot of people that didn't have insurance, almost everyone. There was a lot of people that didn't have anyone with them. There were a lot of people that didn't have any kind of supplies like I had, meaning when I first found out I had cancer, I had this outpouring of love and support of people sending me things like lotions and beanies and bath soaps and like all these healing things to get me through. Like, "Oh my gosh, my friend or family member just found out they have cancer, like what can I do?" Chelsea Berler: I was getting all of this stuff, and it was so much stuff that it was great, it was like books and coloring books and things to pass the time because when you go to chemo you're there like almost six hours sometimes just not only waiting for your drugs but then getting your drugs and it like it's just such a process. I felt like I would walk in there with, Mark would come with me every single time, he sits with me the whole time. I would come in with a bag of this stuff that I could use playing cards and like I said, books and coloring books and things that would just help me get through this process. Chelsea Berler: As I was looking around, I was heartbroken because no one ... like I literally, I felt like I was the only one that had it, it really did, and it broke my heart because how many people a day are going through this and having to sit there every day. I thought to myself, there's got to be something that I could do to help these people. I thought, I'm going to take all this stuff that was given to me that I had extras of which was a ton, and I'm just going to bring it all in here and ask the nurses if I can just put it on this back shelf and anyone can have it, whatever they want. Chelsea Berler: I asked him, and I said, "Great, absolutely bring it in," and so I literally just dumped out a ton of stuff that I had extra stuff. The end of that day it was all gone, everything that in like the women that are in there, of course, are bald, and some of them didn't have beanies and some of them, you know, I just don't have anything. Chelsea Berler: Then it got me thinking, like there are all these really great nonprofits that help raise money for research and help do this or that within the cancer funding foundations, but there isn't that I know of a place where you can go where you can get support meaning these types of things that help you pass the time, and there isn't a place where you can do it for free. I mean, you have to buy it, or someone is going to buy it for you. Chelsea Berler: I thought, I am going to start a nonprofit where it'll be based on donation, and I'm going to put together bags of things, I'm going to curate them based off of what I used. Every single thing in what we're calling a blue bag because blue is, I feel like more adequate than pink, it is stuff that I have personally used. Like things like oatmeal that it was really all that I could eat for a while, ginger candies helped with nausea, the coloring books, the reading books, the warm socks, the lotions, the bath soaps, all of those things that I personally use that I know used, that I used well. Chelsea Berler: I put these bags together, and I thought, I don't know how this is going to go. I don't know if people will understand it but I'm going to start this blue big movement, and I am going to allow people to request them if they want to request them on their own, and like for themselves if they're going through cancer treatment, or someone can request for them, and we'll ship them. Because my business is web design, we were able to put up a website. I was able to curate these products, design a bag that it's really amazing. Chelsea Berler: I was like, "Okay, we're gonna do this, we're going to police together," and the donations just started coming in. I think we're probably at about $50,000 that we've raised, and that's not even corporate donations, that's literally personal community people we've known like it's been amazing. We've been able to ship these blue bags all around the world, they've gone to the UK, they've gone to the US. Chelsea Berler: We just shipped some time to Honolulu, there's a map that for bell.org where you can see where the blue bags have gone so far. It's been amazing, and it's also very sad because there are so many people that are going through this process that need this kind of support and we get to ship these out for free, and it is awesome. Chelsea Berler: What we're doing right now as we're transitioning the foundation, so my husband is going to run it when I'm gone, and I have a really great group of people here that friends and family that they help curate and put these blue bags together every month. What we try and do is do 50 at a time, we probably will start doing 100 at a time because it's going so well. It's a lot of work and so what we have to do right now is, we make enough, and then people request them on the website and then you have to take the request form down when we run out so we can make more. We're kind of trying to get into the rhythm of that. It's been amazing; it's been so awesome.  Dr. Bob: That is incredible. I mean, with all the other things that you've got going on in your life to have been to have the wherewithal. The desire to create something to help other people just truly speaks to the depth of who you are. So that's incredible, so there'll be a link on our website, integratedmdcare.com/newsite1 where people can get access to this podcast. We'll also have a link to bell.org so that they can go in and get on and see how they can contribute or request a bag for someone who they know that would benefit from it. That is just, wow, Chelsea, you're awesome, and it does sound like you have lived about three lifetimes and your short 30, 40 years. Chelsea Berler: I know, it's like a cat, right? Dr. Bob: I mean you've shared a lot of obviously from some very, very deep and personal, intimate things and you'd given, I know some of your wisdom that that's come to you and through you, anything that you feel is just kind of needing to bubble out before we say for this particular episode?  Chelsea Berler: I think more than anything I appreciate you taking the time and understanding why that maybe this would be helpful for others to include in your podcast. Just having the being one that's going through the dying process and being at peace with it and being in a good place with it, I think is really great. I think that part of that is just knowing that life is short and I hope that people will really take tune to know that life, live a little harder, live a little bigger, live a little more fierce, and eat a pop tart if you want to eat a pop tart. Chelsea Berler: I think those are all really important pieces to living a good life and not worrying so much about saving all your money and maybe take more trips and have more memories, and maybe less things and more good stuff that you can add to your life that will just add to those sweet memories that you can keep a hold of. I think all that's really important. Just as a takeaway for it, for anyone that thinks they have a long life to live, which I hope they do. I hope they live each day as if it were their last because I think that that's important. Dr. Bob: No doubt. Awesome. Well, thank you again, and I'm so glad that we're reconnected, and I'm hoping that we can use the time that you have left to continue to add value and stay connected and promote your book and the nonprofit, and you're amazing. I knew you were amazing before. Now I see an entirely a whole other realm of amazing in you. So thank you for being you and for sharing you. Chelsea Berler: Thank you. I appreciate it very much. I adore and love you and your work, and I think that what you do is so important. So thank you for that.

  Jami Shapiro helps seniors transition from homes with her company Silver Linings Transitions. Learn why she is so passionate about this work and how she can help you or your loved ones. Contact Silver Linings Transitions Note: A Life and Death Conversation is produced for the ear. The optimal experience will come from listening to it. We provide the transcript as a way to easily navigate to a particular section and for those who would like to follow along using the text.  We strongly encourage you to listen to the audio which allows you to hear the full emotional impact of the show. A combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers generates transcripts which may contain errors. The corresponding audio should be checked before quoting in print. Transcript Jami Shapiro: Thanks for having me. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's great to have you here. Jami Shapiro: This is exciting. I was really looking forward to this conversation, so I'm glad to be here. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Why is that? Jami Shapiro: Well, death and what you do, it has just really become ... I guess I should describe what it is that I do so that it can set the stage for people. Dr. Bob: Sounds good. Jami Shapiro: Okay. I own a company, as you mentioned, called Silver Linings Transitions and we started as a senior move management company, which is actually part of a National Association called The National Association of Senior Move Management, and I have to step it back a little bit because about 13 years ago, I was diagnosed with thyroid cancer, and I was 34 years old, and it was life-changing for me to have to wait on the diagnosis and at the same time, one of my closest friends died of ovarian cancer. When you look at cancer as a 34-year old, you realized, "Oh, this is borrowed time." A friend of mine who had cancer as a freshman college said that getting cancer was like getting a front row seat to life. Dr. Bob: Wow. Jami Shapiro: Right. I started to look at my own life, and I knew that what I was doing wasn't fulfilling for me. I ended up moving to San Diego from Florida with my now ex-husband, when he took a dean position out here, and it was an opportunity for me to explore what it was that I wanted to do and the first job that I had was actually working at a cancer foundation started by a family who had lost their daughter at 39 to gastroesophageal cancer stage four, and no one knew because we weren't talking about it or what the symptoms were. I loved that they took their tragedy and they turned it into something, which was really very close to who I was. Around the time that I needed to put my daughter into private school, a friend of mine approached me about starting a business selling things for seniors on eBay. That was how we were going to start. Then while she was researching that, we found out about The National Association and they were going to be having their conference in San Diego two months later, and went to that conference, and that was that light bulb that everybody hopes to get, and it was like, "This is what I'm meant to do," and the people that do the work that I do, which is helping seniors when they're transitioning from their homes. It can be the home they've been in for 60 years. It can be the condo that they've moved into, but going into a senior community typically or sometimes into a smaller space is actually very ... It's a tough transition. It's medically identified as relocation stress syndrome, and they say that it is the most difficult transition a person will make in their lifetime. I don't know compared to what you're helping them transition through, but it's tough. Dr. Bob: It's significant. Jami Shapiro: It's significant. Dr. Bob: It's significant, and it's probably under-addressed and under-recognized in general. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Right. Then, what their staff represents to them. That's what we're doing is we're helping them go through the mementos of their lives, so I started it that way with a partner. Then, things happen the way life does, and my partner ended up going to work with her husband because he had actually started a business as well. Then, I had to look at how am I going to do this business by myself because I planned on having a partner. I've got three children. Anyway, I ended up shortly after that, putting something on Facebook that I was looking for help because I'm actually as great as my company is, and you have to be very organized to do the work that we do, but I'm not organized. I knew I had to find somebody that was. Initially, I was looking for a partner, couldn't find the right partner. Then, I put something on Facebook in a group of women that I, in San Elijo Hills, we have a little women's site. I posted something, and the first person that responded to me was a woman who had been a stay at home mom for 18 years, and she couldn't find anyone that would hire her. That was when the second epiphany happened, and that was women when they're transitioning back into the workforce whether they're going through a divorce or their kids are going to school, it's tough for women to compete with the younger women and then to have the flexibility, so that became my team and that was women transitioning back into the workforce. Then, right after that, I started, my marriage ended. It was like I'm starting a business simultaneously and going through a divorce. Then, I realized that women including me, if we walk away from careers and even though I worked, we didn't find my retirement. We find it his, and even though I'm getting half of his retirement, I'm starting at a lower level than he is. Then, you've got the issue of benefits. My long-term objective is actually to help the seniors and the other clients because we now help divorcing clients. We help when there's a death, and we go into the home, but it's also to provide meaningful work for women, a platform that will give them to get the confidence to get back up into the workforce, but I see this really ... In my vision, it's national. That's where I'm going. Dr. Bob: That's awesome. That's really great. It's like a trifecta. You're helping several populations that clearly have needs. Many of those needs are unmet, and you're doing it from a place not ... It sounds like, not necessarily because you want to be a billionaire, but because you want to have meaningful work. You want your life to mean something, and you were fortunate to have that wake-up call at 34 when you realized that, "Wow. There really is a limit to all of this," and you needed to do something now. That's awesome. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Dr. Bob: That's pretty wonderful. Jami Shapiro: Well, that's actually why I called the company Silver Linings Transitions because I would never have gotten to that place if I haven't had that experience. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, I love that. It really resonates with me because for me, I've been accused of being an eternal optimist and even in the phase of situations where it really seems like it wouldn't be the appropriate response, I just have this sense of optimism that things are going to work out and I always look for the silver linings, and I talked about that because there always is one. Jami Shapiro: You're absolutely right. There's always a lesson to be learned. Dr. Bob: Yeah. No question about it because we can't control what happens in life. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. That's exactly right. Dr. Bob: What we can control is our response to it. Jami Shapiro: I just wrote a blog about that yesterday actually, and it ended exactly that same way. Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Good for you. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Dr. Bob: I love the fact that ... We talked about this before we started recording that there's definitely some similarities and alignment in our ... Not just our chosen, I guess career path. Jami Shapiro: And who we're serving, right? Dr. Bob: And who we're serving, but I think what we're trying to accomplish. Jami Shapiro: Our why? I think we both talked about the fact that we both feel like this is a calling. Yeah. I'm also an eternal optimist and I'm so grateful actually that I am because I have a lot of family members with depression, and I know that it's really difficult, and I feel like if I can talk about God because that's really helped me with everything that's gone on is to know that He's given me these talents and there's some reason that I have them, and there's something I'm supposed to do with them. Dr. Bob: Yeah. If you didn't, well, then you wouldn't be fulfilling your reason for being here. Jami Shapiro: That's exactly right. That's right. Dr. Bob: Right? It's so cool because there's ... In your work as well and in mine, we come across people who are in really difficult circumstances often, and they're going through challenges, and it's fascinating to see how people respond to those challenges because I can be talking with a person who's in their 80s, 90s or over 100 who's struggling, and looking at uncertain future, but likely challenging, but they don't feel victimized. They still see the positives in life, and they still feel grateful for what they've had and what life has been for them, and even what's coming. Jami Shapiro: That's right. What they can do. Right. We need to identify what it is we still can do. Dr. Bob: There's such an opportunity, I think, we're not a psychologist. We're not a psychiatrist. We're not the therapist, but in everything that we do, I think there's an opportunity to help to share this sense of the possibilities. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Right? That there is a silver lining to everything. Sometimes people don't want to hear that in the moment, but I think representing that, living it by example is very important, and it sounds to me like you're doing that. Jami Shapiro: Right. It's interesting because I do get to work with seniors when they're going through the mementos of their life as I mentioned, and so we actually ... I have a partner, Bryan Devore, he's a realtor, and we worked together now. He does his own Silver Linings Transitions, but most people who are selling a home ... Well, everyone selling a home will have to move, and a lot of the clients that we come across are seniors who will also need to sell their homes, so we offer that as a bundled service, but we ended up working with four clients together last year. Two of them embraced moving into a senior community. One of them had his name tag on when we met him, and he was excited about going, and he was going to have his meals there, and the other woman put herself on a waiting list and brought my company in, so we could get her ready for that transition, and those two are thriving. Then, there were two situations where we were called in, and they were kicking and screaming going there, both had put deposits down, but neither one of them wanted to be there. Both of them pass within a month of moving, and it just shows like you're right. You don't have a choice in a matter. The only choice you have is your response to it. Dr. Bob: Yeah. It's powerful. Jami Shapiro: We started a TV show actually that we're going to start filming in March, and I'm really excited about showing people what senior community really is and following people who are transitioning into those changes. Dr. Bob: The communities that you're helping people transition to, is it any size? It can be a large assisted living or independent living or small residential care homes? Jami Shapiro: Sure. We've even done an 8,500 square foot ranch in Santa Fe home into a smaller three bedroom house. Anytime there's a downsize and we actually ... I don't want to plug the business because that's something the conversation is about. Dr. Bob: Please do. You're plugging something that's needed, and valuable. Jami Shapiro: We're working with a family now, and there's a little bit of health stuff going on and they are needing to move out of their son's school because there are some issues going on and there are some boundary changes, and so my team is going in and getting the home organized and helping them move because people would say, "Well, do you have to be a senior?" I said, "No. We don't discriminate based on age." We really help, and Bryan is selling the home for them, and as I mentioned, if he sells their home, then he provides Silver Linings Transitions free for our clients. We actually have a website called packedforfree.com, and we actually created a little thing that looks like a Reese's because what's the best combination in the world? Chocolate and peanut butter and next is selling your home and moving. Dr. Bob: Right. Helping someone transition. Jami Shapiro: Right? Move services. Exactly. Dr. Bob: Well, I just moved a little over a month ago, and we're pretty good at moving. We moved a number of times. I think we just changed. Jami Shapiro: Me, too. Me, too. Dr. Bob: ...When I was looking at the website, and the idea that really appealed to me is you get up in the morning, you leave your bed unmade, you go out, you enjoy your day, you go back to your new place, and everything's in place. The idea of that was just like incredibly overwhelming to me. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. For us ... Dr. Bob: I wish I would have known about you. Jami Shapiro: You know what? I wish that every time somebody said that, I got a dollar because I'd be a wealthy woman. Dr. Bob: I know. Me too. Yeah. No doubt about it. Jami Shapiro: Yeah, exactly. Dr. Bob: For me, and probably for you too, it really makes me sad when I hear somebody say, "I wish we had known about you when my mom was ill, or a few months ago when we were going through these challenges." Jami Shapiro: Right. I think one of the things that also we are different than a moving company because the women that I'm hiring are so compassionate, and it's funny. Most of them have found Silver Linings Transitions. One of them when I was first starting the business, and I wanted to take credit cards, I had to have my ... My home was where I was going to work out of the company or work, and she came in to look at my home and make sure I was legitimate, and we've got into a conversation and her father had just passed away, and she was helping her mother go through all of his belongings, and she's actually my head manager now. That's how she found me coming into my kitchen, and then I have another woman whose husband was on jury duty, and he happened to hear somebody talking about the company, and she approached me. People are coming because I think they feel that calling too, and I think it's so evident when our clients work with us that we are just really compassionate and ... Dr. Bob: That's what they want. That's what people want. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Dr. Bob: They don't want someone who is just going to come in and handle the transaction. Jami Shapiro: Right. They would be heard. Dr. Bob: At this day, for some people, yes, it's about cost, and they have to be conscientious about that, but I think for more people at that stage of life, it's about trust, knowing that they and their things are in good hands and that it goes smoothly. Similarly, I think there's alignment there as well that there's such a ... The norm is that things don't go smoothly. The typical situation is people struggle. They try to find the resources, and they're searching, and they're getting recommendations and they piecemeal it together. To be able to say that anxiety, time, frustration by having a teen that they can really trust and feel good about working makes all the difference in the world. Jami Shapiro: Right. I noticed that about your team as well, and it's having a comprehensive solution. I know when I had thyroid cancer actually, I was very fortunate that I lived in Jacksonville, Florida and there was a Mayo Clinic, and the leading person who dealt with thyroid cancer endocrinologist happened to be in Jacksonville. Then, it ended up that we couldn't go because the insurance have that goes. Dealing with Mayo where everything was in one place, and as a patient, it was so comforting versus them having to leave that system and then have to exactly piecemeal it together. There's nothing worse than going through something really tough, and then having to manage all the pieces too. Dr. Bob: Right. The situation itself is stressful, and then to add on top of that all the frustration that comes with trying to get the right support. Jami Shapiro: Right. Dr. Bob: The healthcare system is the prime example of that, which is why we exist. I would be very happy if there was no need for us. Jami Shapiro: Oh, no death. I say [crosstalk 00:15:34]. Dr. Bob: Well, I would be wonder ... People were going to die, right? Jami Shapiro: Yes. [crosstalk 00:15:39]. Dr. Bob: We're not going to stop that, but if everybody has the right support and the right guidance. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Because the medical system acts like death is not going to happen. They don't talk about death. Jami Shapiro: Right. I'm not supposed to talk about it either. I was telling you we go out and we give talks. The talk that I've done lately is, "Do you own your stuff or does your stuff own you?" Because so many people are prisoners to these rooms, they're not even living in because their stuff is there. They're not even enjoying their stuff, and that's a whole conversation that I still want to address, but when I talked about it, and we're talking about downsizing and going through the mementos of their life, I've been told not to talk about death. We want to bury our heads in the sand. I actually went to ... An attorney was giving a talk on advance directives, and he said that only 10% of people even have a discussion with their spouse about what their wishes are. It's just like we just want to bury our head in the sand. Dr. Bob: Yes, we do, but we're trying to do something about that. Right? Jami Shapiro: Yes, absolutely. Dr. Bob: And people like us, which is why we're having this conversation, which is why people like us who, for some reason, somehow had become comfortable with the concept. It's so important for us to be out there leading by example and encouraging the conversations. I think that there's a shift happening. There's a movement underway, the death cap phase, and maybe I have a warped sense of things just because I'm so immersed in that. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Dr. Bob: But I do get the sense that when I'm out speaking with people, and they learn what I do, it opens up this flood sometimes of wanting to talk about the experiences they've had. You and your team find yourselves in situations where you're having intimate conversations, and people are in a vulnerable time, so you're probably experiencing some of this as well. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: I'm amazed how freely people talk about the experiences that they've had in their life around death of a relative or a friend, and I would say it's probably equally divided between people who talk about how difficult and challenging it was and their frustration with the system and fear about what might happen next time, somebody that they love or they become ill, but there's another group of people who want to share what an incredibly transformational experience it was because they somehow found the resources they needed. They had a great hospice team. They have advocates, and so it seems so ... The goal really seems to be to try to get those people who have had those scary, challenging, frustrating, horrific experiences to not have to deal with that but to be able to be in that other camp where it is a beautiful, peaceful transformational experience. Jami Shapiro: Right. You said something that you're noticing, and you think it's because of the work that you're doing, but I also am ... I've sort of become, I would say more spiritual, and sort of realizing a collective soul now. I actually had read back in my 20s the book, "Many Lives, Many Masters," by Brian Weiss, and ended up having a conversation with somebody about Akashic records, which is probably something I can't even interest, but I reread the book now in my 40s, and so, now I see this time on earth, they call it earth school, which ties back into the whole silver linings thing, which is what lessons is my soul supposed to learn? That has given me some peace because I'm actually one of those people whose always been really afraid of death too and it was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you because it's really addressing something that I myself not wanted to talk about. As I'm starting this business and realizing that for me anyway, and I would say most people, we are going to leave this earth. There's no debate. We both know, and we're on the same side of the coin, that's going to happen, but what's your legacy going to be? What is it that you're going to have done? What's your imprint? I think when you are ... [inaudible 00:20:03] the word "aligned," but it is, when you are aligned, when you are listening to that voice or however comes to you, meditation or the light bulb moment, then you realize you're part of something bigger. Dr. Bob: That has brought you more peace? Jami Shapiro: It has. It has. Now, I'm reading "Journey of Souls," and that one's a little bit more challenging for me. I read the Brian Weiss one in a day, and this one, I've been struggling with, but it talks about our souls and the way that our souls evolve and that some souls don't even come back to earth, and that they are so ... They love where they are, so that gives me peace. Actually, when I was in my 20s, I worked with a couple ... I was in a different line of work, but they lost their adult sons, both of them within a period of two years, and I told them about this book. Then actually, recently, I was in yoga, and I was really getting frustrated because I wanted to get into the class and there was a woman, and she was talking to the woman that was checking everybody in, and, "Come on, come on, come on." Then, the one woman said, "I've been thinking about you. My daughter passed away last week." Then, it was just like ... That changed where I was at completely, and I told her about the book because for me, just thinking that this isn't a final conversation, that this isn't a final place and I remember too like that whole class, I felt called to hug her. I just needed to hug her. That's not something I'm just going to like, "Hey yo." Then, I walked up, and I said, "I just have to. Is it okay?" It just was such a ... That collectiveness that we are this one thing. Dr. Bob: You could sense that there was a bond of some sort or you wanted to bring her some comfort? Jami Shapiro: Right. Right. Yeah. Dr. Bob: It's fascinating, and I love where you're going. I love this path that you're on. Do you bring this into ... Obviously, it influences everything in your life and your work. Do you incorporate this into the relationships with your clients and your team? Jami Shapiro: Yes. That is a great question. Actually, when we have had clients and the tears start to come because they do, and I'll say to them, "I was diagnosed with cancer at 34." The idea of being a senior when you're 34 years old, and you don't know ... At that point, I didn't know that I have thyroid cancer. Actually, they call it "the good cancer," but I had to wait 10 days for my pathology to come back to even know that that's what it was, so I had that opportunity to look at my life and my mortality. I say to my clients, "You're so lucky because whatever life threw at you, you get to be here making these decisions. Let's own it." Kind of embracing going into a senior community like starting a new school or I remember we had a client, and she had a ton of hats. Some of these hats had never been worn. They still have the tags on them, and we're going through her belongings and trying to figure out what's going to fit. I said, "Why don't you take the hat? Somebody known as the crazy hat lady? You can change it." It is just like you said back in the beginning; it's attitude. I think when I can say to them, "I faced it, and you're so lucky to be here." That really turns it around for them. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Well, we have a shared experience there as well. Yours was a little bit more intensive, but the day before my 50th birthday, which was a little over five years ago, I got a phone call from a doctor telling me that I have prostate cancer because I've been having issues and MRI was done. A month later, it turned out that we found out that that was not correct, but I spent a month with this belief that I have a fairly aggressive form of cancer, and it changed things for me. I already felt like I had a fairly healthy outlook on life, but at that point, I just saw things differently. I started seeing things through a little bit of a different lens, and I realized it's okay. That was a big piece for me. I realized that no matter what happens, no matter what life threw at me, it was going to be okay. I was prepared. I had pretty much said to those I love and those in my life what I want them to know. I didn't feel like I had any relationships that needed to be fixed, which was wonderful. I think it was a gift, but I would love for people to be able to have that gift without having to have that diagnosis or that fear of the diagnosis. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely, right. Dr. Bob: To be able to have something that allows them to do ... Just to check in to do a big-time check in with where they are, and essentially answer the question, "Are you ready?" If you're not, what do you need to do to be ready? Jami Shapiro: Right. Dr. Bob: Get on it. Jami Shapiro: Right. Absolutely. I also see that too as the brick that was turning your path because you're dealing with people when they're going through this time, and when you're in that space, I think it gives you ... I think you're already an amazingly empathetic and compassionate, but now maybe a little more empathetic because you sat there. Dr. Bob: Then, subsequently in the last few years, both my parents going through terminal lung cancer and dying in my presence and my family's presence has added to that. We don't want everyone to have to go through these personal experiences in order to get the lessons, which is I think partly why we're putting ourselves out there and creating opportunities for other like-minded folks to come in and provide support and guidance. Jami Shapiro: Right. Yeah. Sure. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You've had a number of experiences that have influenced your journey and your path and kind of the attribute. I know that you've also experienced death in your life. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, my grandmother was, I think the person that I was closest to in the entire world, and I'm actually wearing her pin today because I'm going to be starting filming on this show and I wanted to have her a part of her with me, and I will sense her sometimes, not necessarily like feeling her, but finding a letter that she wrote that was exactly what I needed to read in that moment or on my 47th birthday, I was going through a divorce. I just had a breakup with the boyfriend, and I was not expecting much of the day because no one to throw a party for me, and I was an only child. My birthday is a big deal. When you have cancer too, you need to celebrate birthdays, but I ended up totally by fluke, I had my three daughters. It was my birthday, so nobody could say no. I'm going to sit in my bed with me, and we're going to look through this box and mementos. I have had this box and some of the things in it for years, but there was a jewelry pouch that had been my grandmother's, and she had these pins that I knew about, and I knew that her wedding ring was there, but there was a little brown pouch, and it was flat. It was a felt pouch and had I not been a senior move manager, I would have tossed the pouch, but something made me put my finger inside, and I found a diamond earring. Then, I couldn't find the other one, and I was searching the whole box, and then I put my finger back in and found the other earring. I'm wearing them. It was funny too because I had gotten this second holes when I was 16 years old and didn't want to wear them, and I was thinking, "Maybe I should get a small earring." Really, this is so true. Then, I found my grandmother's earrings and have been wearing them every day since because I think she meant for me to find them. Dr. Bob: Yes, absolutely. Jami Shapiro: That's my experience with death. I wasn't there when she passed, but it's interesting because she ended up dying from a pulmonary embolism, and I got a call that she had passed, and my husband at the time was going to drive me to the hospital, and my daughter was two months old at the time, and we got stuck in traffic. I needed to get there, and so I got out of the car, and I ran into her room, and she was still there. That was the only time I've ever been close to anybody who had died, and part of me wishes that I had been there to hear that last breath that I hear so peaceful. I've not experienced that, so it's just me seeing this woman that I loved laying there, and I couldn't touch her. Still, it scared me. Dr. Bob: Did you feel like she was no longer there? Did you feel like her spirit, her soul had left the body at that point? Jami Shapiro: Yeah, I didn't sense her. I will say my mom would feel her presence a lot because my mom was actually there when she was dying, and it was a very traumatic death because she was gasping for air, and it really was with my mom and still is. I'm sure I don't even like to talk about it with her because it brings up that for her, but I didn't. I don't feel her the way people talk about feeling energy or I don't feel her, but I know that she's looking out for me because of these little things that keep happening. There are so many synchronicities in my life that are just ... I have no other way to describe them. Part of this is her, but just also I don't know. God is just leading this path. Dr. Bob: Yeah. I think many people feel that. They feel the synchronicities. They feel the signs, messages, but you need to be looking for them, right? Jami Shapiro: Oh, you absolutely have to be open to it. Dr. Bob: I think if you're not, you can just keep blinders on and if that's the case, I guess you could still be hit over the side of the head with a two by four sign. Jami Shapiro: Or cancer diagnosis. Dr. Bob: Yeah. Exactly. Maybe being aware and receptive and looking for those things, maybe that's a health benefit. Jami Shapiro: Sure. Dr. Bob: If you're getting what you need, maybe you're not going to get the things that you don't want because you're not paying attention. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. That's another interesting thing that you brought up. There's another book. I do a lot of reading a lot, and there was a book by Jen Sincero called, "You Are a Badass," and just very inspired by ... I see on your bookshelf, "Think and Grow Rich," but she has an exercise where she says, "For the next minutes spend, look at everything you can find that's right. Count as many things that you can find that are red." You spend a minute counting red, and then she says, "What do you see that was yellow?" Right? We are going to see what we're looking for. Dr. Bob: What we're paying attention to. Jami Shapiro: Absolutely. Dr. Bob: Right. If you look at my bookshelf, when I moved, I took some of the books from home and brought them here. "Think and Grow Rich" could be next to "Many Lives, Many Masters." I have a whole array. I guess I want people to know how to find ... I want people who are potentially going through these transitions or know people who are going through transitions and looking for support. Tell me who are the people who are your ideal clients who really need you, and what's the best way for them to get a hold of you? Jami Shapiro: I feel like my answer is going to make me sound like a transition queen, but as I mentioned ... Dr. Bob: I think you are becoming the transition queen. Jami Shapiro: As I mentioned, Silver Linings Transitions is my company that we started as a senior move management company, and then going through my own divorce and I don't know if I shared it in the interview, but I was having a consultation because my ex and I ... Really, it was a pretty amicable divorce as these things go, but we got to a point where we didn't agree on the house and the attorney that I consulted with said that if we couldn't come to an agreement, that we were going to go before a judge and the judge was going to make us put our house on the market in 60 days, and I looked at her and I was like a deer caught in headlights and like I said, "You're going through one of the most difficult transitions in your life, and now you have to sell your house?" In the middle of my own consultation, I looked at her, and I said, "Do you think divorcing couples would benefit from the services we're providing for seniors?" We started an offshoot, even though it's still Silver Linings Transitions that goes in, but it's called Divorce Home Solutions because I don't think someone going through a divorce is quite ready to hear Silver Linings. You know what I mean? Then, actually my grandmother passed unexpectedly, and my family and they say weddings and funerals bring out the worst in people, descended on her home, but also had to deal with clearing it out when we were grieving. We were having to deal with the physical part of that while we're planning a funeral and grieving this amazing woman. I tear every time I talk about her. I do. I just love ... Anyway, sorry. I remember the items that I didn't get. You know what I mean? One of the things that we do also is we'll go into a home, and we will do a sentimental auction, and we will help the families rather than fight with each other, you come to an amicable solution and then if Bryan Devore who I worked with sells their home, we'll come and we'll clear the whole thing. We can bring the appraiser in to figure out if there's anything of value. We can help divide the belongings. We ship things to people. We just make that another easy transition, and we started meeting with funeral home directors, and a lot of them will keep our brochure and again, that doesn't say Silver Linings Transitions either, but it's really just us going in, and I'm helping anybody and people say, "Do you have to be a senior?" "No." Moving is one of life's top five stressors. If somebody wanted to find me, they could go to my website, Silver Linings Transitions, not just me because I would not be where I am if I haven't had this amazing team of people who found their calling too, but silverliningstransitions.com, and that would give them an opportunity to reach out. Dr. Bob: Are you looking at ... Thank you. Hopefully, that will bring some peace to folks knowing that this exists. I know that when we have patients who die, this is a very common need that everyone is left with so many things that they have to be worrying about and thinking about, and one of them is, "What do we do with all this stuff? What do we do at the house? What do we do with all these things?" It's really the last thing in the world that they really want to be focusing on. Jami Shapiro: Right, or should be. Dr. Bob: Having a compassionate team of people that come in and support that is phenomenal. Are there other companies that you know of that have the same breath of service that you do? Jami Shapiro: Well, as I mentioned, I am part of the national association, The National Association of Senior Move Managers, and people can find it. It's nasmm.org, and they could find other people who do the work that I do and honestly, anybody who chooses to join an association where we're not regulated is already ... As far as I'm concerned, having to learn how to work with seniors and taking that level of commitment to the work that we do. There are other senior move management companies, but I don't think there are any other Silver Linings Transitions, and again, one of my callings is also to help the women who are transitioning back into the workforce. Yeah. Dr. Bob: Are you looking for additional team members? Jami Shapiro: It's a great question. Yes, I am. We're growing, and we're getting to the point where we don't have enough hands. Dr. Bob: Okay. We'll keep that in mind. Jami Shapiro: Yes. Absolutely. In fact, when I go and talk to divorcing people, especially these women who've been at home and are still getting support, I said, "This is the time to start building your resume in that platform," but of course, my vision is to grow and to not just be in San Diego, and rather than doing franchises where you've got to come up with money to pay for a franchise, I want to build this business where we could go in and train people in different cities and give them the tools that they need to run Silver Linings Transitions out of their cities. That's when I think of the whole "Think and Grow Rich," that's the picture of it that's in my head, and not because I want to grow rich but because I just feel like it has to be done. Dr. Bob: Well, you want to grow, and you want to make sure that your life has meaning, that you want to be the example of creating a legacy and doing something that is clearly going to bring value to people. Like us, the need is huge. The gaps are immense, and we want to try to fill that need in the most, I guess, organic and beautiful way possible. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I can see, by the way, why you coming into someone's home when they're at this point because there's very calming presence about you, and I love the people I have met in your office and that you have this team that can go in and supports them with massage or acupuncture or ... I saw the aromatherapy, I see have been going right now during the interview. Yeah. If it's going to happen, let's make it as gentle as possible. Dr. Bob: Let's make it beautiful. Right. Jami Shapiro: Exactly. Dr. Bob: Because I think back to your grandmother and that struggle, and I don't know how long that went on for those circumstances, but truly I believe that there is a way aside from a very sudden traumatic type death or an incident that is just unanticipated or unexpected, the vast majority of death's cannon should be peaceful and beautiful, and that's not happening routinely, which means that we're doing something wrong, and we have opportunities to make a huge impact because your mom shouldn't have to live with that, right? Jami Shapiro: Oh, no. No. Dr. Bob: That's my why. People shouldn't have to live with fear when we could be there making sure that every last breath is peaceful. Jami Shapiro: Yeah. I just got chills. Just beautiful work that you're doing. Dr. Bob: Yeah. You as well. Jami Shapiro: Thank you. Dr. Bob: I have a feeling that we're going to be collaborating more and this will not be our last conversation. Jami Shapiro: I have a feeling that might be the case. Dr. Bob: Thank you so much for being here. It's a pleasure. Jami Shapiro: Thank you so much.   Weak adjective: difficult by→for in→at , and , I→; I Repetitive word: home the good Undo GENERAL (DEFAULT) 7386 WORDS 3 CRITICAL ISSUES5 ADVANCED ISSUESSCORE: 99 Style checking has been disabled

Welcome to Desert Island Games episode 40. The show where a different guest from either the retro gaming community or occasionally a celeb get to pick eight games, 1 book and 1 luxury item to bring on to a desert island. This week’s guest is Bob from the YouTube channel Let’s Get Retro.