Podcasts about product owners

Shawn Dsouza: From AI Anxiety to AI Advantage: A Scrum Master's Experimental Approach Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn faces the massive AI transformation currently reshaping the tech industry, acknowledging both its benefits and the fear it creates among professionals questioning their relevance. In his organization, he witnesses AI delivering wonders for some teams while others struggle and lose projects. Rather than viewing AI as an overwhelming wave, Shawn advocates for experimentation. He shares practical examples, like helping a Product Owner streamline story creation from Excel to JIRA using AI tools, and leveraging MIRO AI for team collaboration. His approach focuses on identifying friction points where AI experiments could add value while keeping conversations centered on possibilities rather than fears. Self-reflection Question: Instead of fearing technological changes like AI, how can you create small experiments to explore new possibilities and reduce friction in your current work processes? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Shawn Dsouza: The Database Migration Disaster— Why Software Development Teams Need Psychological Safety Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Shawn worked with a skilled team migrating a database from local to cloud-based systems, supported by a strong Product Owner. Despite surface-level success in ceremonies, he noticed the team avoided discussing difficult topics. After three months of seemingly smooth progress, they delivered to pre-production only to discover 140 critical issues. The root cause? Unspoken disagreements and tensions that festered beneath polite ceremony facades. The situation deteriorated to the point where a senior engineer quit, teaching Shawn that pausing to address underlying issues doesn't cost time—it builds sustainability. In this segment, we refer to the episodes with Mahesh Jade, a previous guest on the Scrum Master Toolbox podcast. Featured Book of the Week: The Advice Trap by Michael Bungay Stanier Shawn discovered this transformative book when he realized he was talking too much in team meetings despite wanting to add value. The Advice Trap revealed how his instinct to give advice, though well-intentioned, was actually self-defeating. The book taught him to stay curious longer and ask better questions rather than rushing to provide solutions. As Shawn puts it, "The minute you think you have the answer you stop listening"—a lesson that fundamentally changed his coaching approach and helped him become more effective with his teams. Self-reflection Question: When working with teams, do you find yourself jumping to advice-giving mode, or do you stay curious long enough to truly understand the underlying challenges? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Bernie Maloney: Problems vs. Solutions: The Great Product Owner Distinction Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Strategic Problem Solver Bernie describes an exemplary Product Owner from a stealth program sponsored by a CTO, where the company needed to create new intellectual property. This Great Product Owner understood that Agile operates in three dimensions: most organizations only focus on outputs and delivery (first dimension), some reach outcomes (second dimension), but the truly great ones operate in the third dimension of strategic or business agility - defining problems worth solving. This Product Owner knew that high-performing teams need to understand what problem is worth solving rather than just receiving solutions to build. They embraced the Mobius loop approach, focusing on discovering the right problems rather than jumping straight to solutions. In this segment, we refer to the Mobius Loop, and to Steve Blank's work on the job of a startup.  We also refer to the episode with Elliott Parker on the critical importance of the “startup mindset” to foster innovation in larger organizations.  The Bad Product Owner: The Backlog Jockey with Authority Issues Bernie identifies the anti-pattern of Product Owners being treated as mere "backlog jockeys" by their organizations, which forces them into solution-building mode rather than problem-solving mode. These Product Owners don't understand the importance of saying "no" and lack clarity about intent and goals. The worst case Bernie encountered was a team manager who also served as Product Owner, wielding positional authority that shut down team communication. This person would interrupt daily scrums, causing teams to revert to waiting for direction rather than self-organizing. The combination of unclear intent and positional authority creates a toxic environment that destroys team autonomy and psychological safety. Self-reflection Question: Is your Product Owner focused on defining problems worth solving, or are they primarily managing a backlog of predetermined solutions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Hoe zorg je ervoor dat jouw development team AI-coding écht omarmt? In aflevering #192 ging het over AI-coding zelf, maar nu gaan we net een stapje verder! In deze aflevering van de Product Owner Podcast spreekt Ruud met Joost, Developer Experience & Tooling Specialist bij Navara. Met zijn achtergrond als test engineer weet hij als geen ander hoe belangrijk kwaliteit, vertrouwen en adoptie zijn bij het introduceren van nieuwe tools zoals GitHub Copilot. Ze bespreken hoe je AI-coding succesvol introduceert in je organisatie, wat de valkuilen zijn, en waarom het menselijke aspect in coderen onmisbaar blijft. Ook hoor je hoe je met een hackathon op vibe coding direct waarde kunt creëren én betrokkenheid vergroot. In deze aflevering hebben we het over: ai-coding, vibe coding, adoptie, change management, github, copilot, cursor, product owners, prototypen Over deze podcast: Deze aflevering is onderdeel van de speciale reeks ‘AI in Product Development', onderdeel van de Product Owner podcast. In de Product Owner podcast spreken we elke week met een interessante gast uit de wereld van product management en gaan we in op echte ervaringen, lessen en tactieken van product owners, ondernemers en specialisten. De Product Owner podcast is een initiatief van productowner.nl

The Daily Scrum is the shortest Scrum event and the most misunderstood. Too many teams turn it into a draggy 30-minute status update instead of the energizing 15-minute sync it's meant to be.In this episode, Kate & Ryan break down how to facilitate Daily Scrums that actually work.  They cover:Why the Daily Scrum is the team's meeting (not a status check for the Scrum Master or Product Owner!)Alternatives to the “three questions” and how to keep things outcome-focusedTricks like the “popcorn” method, music openers, and 15th-minute parking lots to keep energy highHow to handle long-winded updates, lurking managers, and multitasking teammatesWhy this sacred 15 minutes might be your team's most important event of the dayIf you're tired of Daily Scrums that drag on and suck energy out of the room, tune in. Let's reclaim the Daily Scrum as a dynamic, focused, and fun event that drives the sprint forward. 

Sprintziele gehören zu den stärksten Werkzeugen im Scrum-Framework. Dominique und Oliver sprechen in dieser Folge darüber, wie es Teams gelingt, Sprintziele so zu etablieren, dass sie Orientierung geben, Wirkung entfalten und Vertrauen schaffen. Ein Sprintziel ist schließlich mehr als eine Pflichtübung im Sprint Planning. Richtig eingesetzt, schafft es Klarheit über das „Warum“ der nächsten Iteration und verbindet die tägliche Arbeit mit der Produktvision. Vielen Teams fällt die Nutzung von Sprintzielen jedoch schwer. Häufig gibt es gar kein Ziel oder es bleibt auf der Ebene von Aufgabenlisten stecken. Statt echter Wirkung wird dann nur Output gemessen. Die Folge: wenig Fokus, kaum Begeisterung bei Stakeholdern und sinkendes Vertrauen in den Wert von Sprintzielen. Doch gerade hier liegt der Hebel. Ein gut formuliertes Sprintziel richtet die Arbeit am Outcome aus. Es beantwortet die Frage, welchen Mehrwert das Team in den kommenden zwei Wochen schaffen will und gibt damit eine klare Orientierung für Entscheidungen im Sprint. Statt einer Sammlung von Backlog-Items entsteht ein gemeinsamer Fokus. Im Daily oder im Review lässt sich damit jederzeit prüfen, ob die Arbeit noch auf das eigentliche Ziel einzahlt. Dominique und Oliver machen aber auch deutlich, dass Sprintziele eben nicht im stillen Kämmerlein entstehen sollten. Entscheidend ist die gemeinsame Gestaltung mit den Developern. Wer das Ziel aktiv mitformuliert, wird es auch eher als eigenes Commitment ansehen. So entsteht nicht nur mehr Akzeptanz, sondern auch die Bereitschaft, externe Einflüsse auszuhalten und das Ziel zu verteidigen. Product Owner:innen bringen dabei den strategischen Rahmen ein – etwa Vision, Roadmap oder Product Goal – und öffnen einen Raum, in dem das Team das nächste sinnvolle Ziel bestimmen kann. Ein gutes Sprintziel ist aber auch sichtbar und sie sind im Alltag präsent: in Dailys, in Gesprächen mit Stakeholdern und sogar in der spontanen Antwort auf die Frage „Woran arbeitet ihr gerade?“. Nur so werden sie zu einem lebendigen Orientierungspunkt statt zu einem Protokolleintrag. Wenn ein Team das gemeinsam vereinbarte Sprintziel erreicht, gilt es, diesen Erfolg sichtbar zu feiern; nicht die Anzahl der erledigten Backlog-Items, sondern den erzielten Mehrwert. Gerade im Sprint Review eröffnet das die Chance, Stakeholder zu begeistern und ihnen zu zeigen, warum sich die investierte Arbeit gelohnt hat. So wird das Konzept Sprintziele gestärkt und gewinnt wieder Vertrauen. Zusammengefasst helfen Sprintziele Teams dabei, sich auf das Wesentliche zu konzentrieren, Entscheidungen leichter zu treffen und Stakeholder einzubeziehen. Wer sie konsequent auf Outcome ausrichtet, gemeinsam gestaltet und sichtbar macht, etabliert ein Instrument, das weit mehr ist als eine Formalität. Es ist ein Kompass, der Produktteams eine gemeinsame, wetvolle Richtung gibt.

Mariano Gontchar: The Micromanagement Trap—When PO's Good Intentions Harm Agile Team Performance Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Visionary Leader During an agile transformation project modernizing a build system with multiple stakeholders, Mariano worked with an exceptional Product Owner who demonstrated the power of clear vision and well-defined roadmaps. This visionary Product Owner successfully navigated complex stakeholder relationships by maintaining focus on the product vision while providing clear direction through structured roadmap planning, enabling the team to deliver meaningful results in a challenging environment. The Bad Product Owner: The Task-Manager Micromanager Mariano encountered a well-intentioned Product Owner who fell into the task-manager anti-pattern, becoming overly detail-oriented and controlling. This Product Owner provided extremely detailed story descriptions and even specified who should do what tasks instead of explaining why work was needed. This approach turned the team into mere task-handlers with no space to contribute their expertise, ultimately reducing both engagement and effectiveness despite the Product Owner's good intentions. Self-reflection Question: Are you empowering your team to contribute their expertise, or are you inadvertently turning them into task-handlers through over-specification? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Mariano Gontchar: Fear-Free Teams—Creating Psychological Safety for High Performance Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Mariano's definition of Scrum Master success has evolved dramatically from his early days of focusing on "deliver on time and budget" to a more sophisticated understanding centered on team independence and psychological safety. Today, he measures success by whether teams can self-manage, communicate effectively with stakeholders, and operate without fear of criticism. This shift represents a fundamental change from output-focused metrics to outcome-focused team health indicators that create sustainable high performance. Self-reflection Question: How has your definition of success evolved in your current role, and what would change if you focused on team independence rather than traditional delivery metrics? Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: Frustration-Based Retrospective Mariano's retrospective approach focuses on asking team members about their biggest frustrations from the last sprint. This format helps team members realize their frustrations aren't unique and creates psychological safety for sharing challenges. The key is always asking the team to propose solutions themselves rather than imposing fixes, making retrospectives about genuine continuous improvement rather than just complaining sessions. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Mariano Gontchar: From Evangelist to Facilitator—How To Lead A Successful Company Merger Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. During a complex merger between two telecom companies, Mariano faced the challenge of uniting team members with different cultures, practices, and tools. His initial approach of selling Agile theory instead of focusing on benefits failed because he forgot about the "why" of change. The breakthrough came when he shifted from being an Agile evangelist to becoming a facilitator who listened to managers' real challenges. By connecting people and letting the team present their own solutions to leadership, Mariano successfully created unity between the formerly divided groups. Self-reflection Question: Are you trying to sell your methodology or solve real problems, and what would happen if you focused on understanding challenges before proposing solutions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

In dieser Börsentalk-Folge begrüßen wir Denis Liemen, Product Owner bei justTRADE, und tauchen in die Welt der strukturierten Produkte ein. Gemeinsam klären wir, was sich hinter diesem Begriff verbirgt und wie sich diese Anlageformen von klassischen Investments wie Aktien oder ETFs unterscheiden.Wir sprechen über die wichtigsten Zertifikate-Produkttypen und beleuchten, wann ihr Einsatz besonders sinnvoll sein kann. Denis erklärt ausführlich, auf welche Basiswerte - neben Aktien - auch Zertifikate emittiert werden und wann ein Derivat im Vergleich zum Direktinvestment Vorteile bieten kann und welche Risiken beachtet werden müssen.Außerdem erfahrt ihr, wie ihr das passende Derivat für eure Anlagestrategie findet, worauf Einsteiger besonders achten sollten und warum Produkte wie Knock-Outs, Optionsscheine oder Faktorzertifikate trotz ihrer Komplexität beliebt sind.Zum Abschluss gibt Denis noch wertvolle Tipps für Anleger, die erstmals den Schritt in die Welt der strukturierten Produkte wagen möchten.Schaubild Derivate Liga: https://www.justtrade.com/fileadmin/Derivate-Liga.pngAußerbörsliche Partner: https://www.justtrade.com/premiumpartnerEinzelne Erklärungen:12:00 Discount-Zertifikate18:22 Bonus-Zertifikate26:28 Turbo-Optionsscheine36:33 Optionsscheine42:36 Faktor-OptionsscheineWenn du möchtest, dass deine Frage in einer der nächsten Folgen beantwortet wird, schicke uns eine E-Mail an: podcast@justtrade.com Du hast noch kein Depot bei justTRADE? Jetzt eröffnenDisclaimer: Die bereitgestellten Inhalte in diesem Podcast dienen nur der Information, stellen keine Anlage, Steuer- oder Rechtsberatung dar und sind weder als Angebot noch als eine Aufforderung zum Kauf oder Verkauf von Wertpapieren oder Kryptowerten zu verstehen.

Different approaches, same goal: better performance. That's why Agile and Lean Six Sigma work together; aligning people, roles, and responsibilities to get the best out of every team.Join Anthony Richardson in conversation with Susannah Clarke as they reveal how Lean Six Sigma roles like Green Belts, Black Belts, and Sponsors align with Agile roles such as Product Owner, Scrum Master, and Developers.Learn when and how these roles intersect, why it matters for delivering improvements, and how clear role alignment can make your projects faster, smarter, and more effective.More resources:Agile Improvement Explained  Agile Meets Lean Six Sigma: A Case Study Setting Up for Agile Success PERFORMANCE IMPROVEMENT IN AN AI-DRIVEN WORLD.Save the Date. 17th March 2026.The only improvement conference for practitioners, by practitioners. More from PMI: Dive into our Knowledge Hub for more tools, videos, and infographics Join us for a PMI LIVE Webinar Follow us on LinkedIn Take your improvement career to the next level with PMI's Lean Six Sigma Certifications - now available in two new and accessible formats, built around you. Explore On Demand >> Explore Distance Learning >>

In deze aflevering van de Product Owner Podcast duiken we in AI-coding. Tools zoals GitHub Copilot en Cursor maken het mogelijk om sneller, slimmer en met minder fouten te programmeren. Maar levert het ook écht de beloofde 55% tijdwinst op? Ruud spreekt met Martijn, Software Engineer bij Navara én AI-coding enthousiast. Ze bespreken de impact van AI op het ontwikkelproces, de risico's, de kwaliteit van de gegenereerde code en de rol van testing. Ook hoor je of elke developer zomaar met AI-coding aan de slag kan en wat dat betekent voor de samenwerking met product owners. Een aflevering vol inzichten, praktijkvoorbeelden en vooruitblik op de toekomst van AI in product development. In deze aflevering hebben we het over: ai-coding, vibe coding, ai, product development, github, cursor, engineer, ai enginering Over deze podcast: Deze aflevering is onderdeel van de speciale reeks ‘AI in Product Development', onderdeel van de Product Owner podcast. In de Product Owner podcast spreken we elke week met een interessante gast uit de wereld van product management en gaan we in op echte ervaringen, lessen en tactieken van product owners, ondernemers en specialisten. De Product Owner podcast is een initiatief van productowner.nl

Mariano Gontchar: Breaking Down The Clan Mentality In Agile Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Mariano encountered a competent team that was sabotaging itself through internal divisions and lack of trust. The team had formed clans that didn't trust each other, creating blind spots even during retrospectives. Rather than simply telling the team what was wrong, Mariano created an anonymous fear-based retrospective that revealed the root cause: a Product Owner who behaved like a boss and evaluated team members, creating a culture of fear. His approach demonstrates the power of empowering teams to discover and solve their own problems rather than imposing solutions from above. Self-reflection Question: What fears might be hiding beneath the surface of your team's dynamics, and how could you create a safe space for them to emerge? Featured Book of the Week: Turn the Ship Around! by David Marquet Mariano recommends "Turn the Ship Around!" by David Marquet (we have an episode with David Marquet talking about this book, check it here). Mariano highlights the fascinating story and introduction to the leader-leader model, which differs significantly from the traditional leader-follower approach. This book resonates with Mariano's journey from directive leadership to facilitative leadership, showing how empowering others rather than commanding them creates more effective and engaged teams. [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Mariano Gontchar: From Boss to Facilitator—The Critical Role of Empathy in Scrum Mastery Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Mariano shares his transformation from viewing himself as a boss in his project manager role to embracing the facilitator mindset essential for Scrum Masters. His journey reveals a crucial insight: you cannot implement Scrum with a "big bang" approach.  Instead, success comes through empathy and understanding your team's needs. Mariano emphasizes that working with Agile requires constant practice and learning, but the key lesson that changed everything for him was learning to empathize with his team members rather than directing them from above. Self-reflection Question: How might your current leadership style be limiting your team's potential, and what would change if you shifted from directing to facilitating? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Too many Sprint Plannings feel like marathons with no finish line.  In this episode, Kate & Ryan show you how to flip the script!  They break down practical facilitation moves to keep Sprint Planning crisp, collaborative, and confidence-building.From capacity planning hacks to sprint goals that actually inspire, they share real-world stories, pitfalls to avoid, and energizing techniques you can steal for your own teams.  Whether you're a Scrum Master, Product Owner, or developer, you'll walk away ready to lead Sprint Planning like a pro—no more chaos, just clarity and momentum!

Tim spricht in dieser Folge mit Marc Roulet von sevdesk darüber, warum bessere Metriken & KPIs den Unterschied machen, wenn es um gute Produktentscheidungen geht. Beide erleben in ihrer Arbeit immer wieder, dass Organisationen Zahlen erheben, die zwar schnell verfügbar sind, aber wenig darüber aussagen, ob ein Produkt wirklich Nutzen stiftet. Marc Roulet ist ein erfahrener Experte im Bereich Analytics und Metriken und bei sevdesk verantwortlich für Data und Analytics. Er hat in ähnlichen Rollen u.a. auch schon bei ebay, mobile.de und XING Erfahrung gesammelt. Somit ist er ein sehr passender Gesprächspartner für dieses Thema Viele Teams orientieren sich an einfachen Kennzahlen wie Story Points oder Anzahl ausgelieferter Features. Das zeigt den "Fleiß" - i.S. von Output, sagt aber kaum etwas über Wirkung. Bessere Metriken schauen auf Outcomes und helfen zu erkennen, ob Kundinnen und Kunden tatsächlich profitieren. Wer das ernst nimmt, stellt fest, dass nicht jede neue Funktion Wert für die Nutzer schafft – und dass auch das Weglassen eine wichtige Entscheidung sein kann. Metriken sind kein starres System, das man einmal definiert und dann abarbeitet. Sie entfalten ihren Wert erst, wenn Teams regelmäßig hinschauen, sie diskutieren und ggf. anpassen - also aktiv mit ihnen arbeiten. So entsteht ein gemeinsames Verständnis, worauf es wirklich ankommt. Oft geht es darum, Hypothesen zu prüfen: Führt eine bestimmte Änderung tatsächlich zu mehr Nutzung? Verbessert sie ein relevantes Kundenerlebnis? Oder verpufft der Effekt? Gerade für Product Owner liegt hier eine Chance. Sie sind nah an den Entscheidungen und können dafür sorgen, dass Gespräche über bessere Metriken nicht an der Oberfläche bleiben. Es geht nicht darum, Zahlen zu liefern, die gut aussehen, sondern um eine Grundlage, die schwierige Fragen und Entscheidungen ermöglicht. Was bedeutet Erfolg für unser Produkt? Wie messen wir Fortschritt, der über Auslastung und Geschwindigkeit hinausgeht und in Richtung unserer Produktvision führt? Wer sich auf diesen Weg einlässt, wird merken, dass bessere Metriken Orientierung geben. Sie bringen Klarheit in Diskussionen mit Stakeholdern, machen Annahmen transparent und helfen Teams, bewusster zu entscheiden. So wird Produktentwicklung weniger zu einer Abfolge von Aktivitäten und mehr zu einem Prozess von Wertgenerierung, der echten Unterschied macht. Das Video von Marcs Talk auf der Product at Heart können wir zu diesem Thema nur empfehlen. Hier der Link zu seinem Talk im Video-Archiv der diesjährigen Product at Heart. In dieser Episode verweisen wir auf diese älteren Folgen des Podcasts: - Data-Fluent Product Manager mit Büşra Coşkuner - Klarheit als Superpower für Produktmenschen mit Arne Kittler Ihr könnt mit Marc Roulet gerne direkt in Kontakt treten und weitere Fragen klären. Am besten kontaktiert ihr in über sein LinkedIn-Profil. Was für Erfahrungen in der Arbeit mit Metriken und KPIs hast du gemacht? Wie arbeitet ihr in eurem Produktteam mit dem Analytics und BI-Team zusammen? Teilt eure Erlebnisse mit uns und anderen Produktmenschen unter diesem Blogpost oder auf unserer LinkedIn Seite und lasst uns gemeinsam daran wachsen!

Salum Abdul-Rahman: Learning to Communicate Value in Public and Non-Profit Sectors' Product Development Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Systematic Value Communicator Salum describes working with a Product Owner who had a PhD in data science on a public sector visualization project. This exceptional PO was extremely systematic in working with stakeholders and possessed a unique ability to bridge abstract concepts with concrete implementations. In the public sector, where monetary feedback is absent, this PO excelled at thinking about value achievement and communicating it effectively to the team. They had the magical capability to involve stakeholders while demystifying complex requirements, helping the team understand not just engagement metrics but how their work would change society and the world. The Bad Product Owner: The Absentee Specialist The most common anti-pattern Salum encounters is the absentee Product Owner - typically a specialist assigned to the PO role while maintaining their full-time job as a domain expert. With only 10-20% time allocation, these POs lack the capacity to fulfill their responsibilities effectively. They often don't have the time or knowledge to develop essential PO skills, requiring extensive hand-holding to understand even basic concepts like user stories. Salum's approach involves booking time directly in their calendar for backlog refinement sessions and providing comprehensive guidance to help them understand the role, though this intensive support is necessary due to their limited availability for skill development. In this segment, we refer to the concept of ‘enshitification' by Cory Doctorow, and refer to Tom Gilb's bonus episode on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast.  Self-reflection Question: How do you ensure your Product Owner has both the time allocation and skill development needed to truly serve the team and stakeholders effectively? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Helpful hints are always what you get on the Planet Product Owner Podcast! Journey today to see how an agile or scrum product owner can help kick off Sprint Planning and establish the expectations for what I believe to be the most important feedback loop in our practice. Today's episode should help you with a pattern that I've found to be successful in this little adventure, helping to navigate around ALL those many stakeholders in the session! I've also reached a decision, finally! Audio only will be available on all the podcast platforms, but video, presentations, downloads, forums, webinars, meetups and much more will be available for members at www.planetproductowner.org. Becoming your agile coach is my passion and I hope I can help you out!Email me at scott@planetproductowner.org for a special coupon code for early access and let's journey together!Of course, if you like my work and you would rather just send a token of your appreciation, you are always welcome to buy me a coffee!https://buymeacoffee.com/planetproductowner

Even the most capable professionals can struggle in interviews. In this episode, Brian and job interview coach Tali Shlafer break down why, and what to do instead. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian welcomes interview coach Tali Shlafer for a practical, clear-eyed conversation about how to approach job interviews as a skill, not a personality trait. Tali shares why being great at your job doesn’t automatically translate to interview success, especially in collaborative fields like product development, Agile coaching, and project management. She outlines a straightforward way to prepare for interviews by identifying the real challenges behind a role and building stories that speak directly to them, without sounding rehearsed or robotic. From reframing “bragging” as problem-solving to handling tough questions with clarity and self-awareness, this episode is full of grounded advice for professionals navigating their next move. References and resources mentioned in the show: Tali Shlafer Free Job Interview Tip Vault Tali's LinkedIn Tali's Instagram #93: The Rise of Human Skills and Agile Acumen with Evan Leybourn #111: Adapting to the Future of Work with Heather McGowan Blog: Entry-Level Scrum Masters: Seven Tips on How to Get Your First Scrum Master Job by Mike Cohn AI Prompt Pack for Product Owners & Scrum Masters Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and host of the Agile Mentors Podcast training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Tali Shlafer is a certified interview coach who helps high performers turn nerves into clarity and confidence so they can land roles they’re truly excited about. Her practical frameworks—rooted in psychology, communication, and performance—ditch the gimmicks and empower candidates to show up as their best, most authentic selves. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in everyone. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast. I'm with you as always, Brian Milner. And today I have Miss Tali Schläufer with us. Welcome in Tali. Tali Shlafer (00:11) Thanks, Brian. I'm excited to be here. Brian Milner (00:13) Very excited to have Tali with us. She is a job interview coach so you can kind of See the direction we're going in here one of her tagline is that she she helps you know professionals get offers they're really excited about and She's got some really interesting insights here because I know in today's world in today's environment There is a lot of shifting going on. There's a lot of transitioning between different places of work. And that interview is always kind of the forgotten portion of it, right? You get past all the other stuff, you get to the point where you're in the interview. So Tali, from your perspective, I know you see and help a lot of people with that portion of it. What are some of the biggest mistakes that people make that you see routinely as you help people prepare for their interviews? Tali Shlafer (01:01) Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that you just mentioned where, you know, people really struggling with the interview piece, you do all this work in your job search to update your resume, update your LinkedIn network, all this stuff, and then you get to the interview and it's like, okay, we're close. It's actually the interview is actually a completely different stage than anything else. And one mistake that I often see people making is just the mindset around interviews. A lot of people think, if I'm great at my job, I'll just interview really well. Like I'm a top performer. I'm good to go. But interviewing is actually a skill that's completely separate from anything else we do in the workplace. It requires you to be able to articulate what you've done in the workplace and the results and the impact that you brought in a way that most of us don't have to do in our day-to-day jobs. And you have to do it better than everybody else. So just because you are a top performer doesn't necessarily mean that that translates into your ability. to talk about yourself and talk about your career, especially in a way that resonates with the specific job culture and the specific job that you're applying for. So I think that's kind of the top mistake that I would just from a mindset level, is seeing interviews as something that you're naturally good at rather than as a skill that you can really develop and build in order to set yourself up for success. Brian Milner (02:12) Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point because, know, just because, as you said, just because I'm a top performer in something that I do, have a huge skill set or knowledge area that I'm really good at, doesn't mean that I'm necessarily good at an interview process because it is kind of a whole set of other communication skills that you have to have in that kind of environment. I know when I've talked to people about it sometimes, they feel sort of this, I don't know, dichotomy a little bit back and forth about... I know I'm supposed to plug myself here. I know I'm supposed to kind of brag a little bit, but I also don't want to sound cocky. I don't want to sound, you know, I don't know, just brash or anything. How do you help people or what do you advise people about in that area? Tali Shlafer (03:06) Yeah, and I think this is really common for people who are top performers and people who are very team oriented and collaboration oriented. It's really difficult for those folks to go, hey, I did all this stuff by myself and to kind of put themselves in that spotlight. So it's a very common challenge. It's also very common for folks who are really good at their job and have been doing this for a long time to actually be able to articulate. what that secret sauce is, like why they're actually good at their job, which is part of the challenge. Remind me the question that you just asked. Brian Milner (03:38) No, I'm just, in talking about kind of like how people prepare for these kind of things, the way they communicate this stuff, sometimes it's kind of more this worry about am I being a little too overbearing or brash in how I'm bragging about myself? Will I come off seeming cocky? or overconfident, how do they walk that fine line? Tali Shlafer (04:03) Yeah, I think this is a really big mindset piece where a lot of people who are those top performers and are very collaborative in nature are afraid to talk about themselves and be in the spotlight and kind of take credit where, especially in something like in the agile world or project management, product management, it's a very collaborative space. people are afraid to like, people are afraid to say, here's what I did. And Part of the mindset shift that I really encourage clients and job seekers to have is rather than to see it as, hey, the interview is all about you and the spotlight's on you and you're a used car salesman trying to promo yourself and it feels really icky so we don't want to do it. We end up not doing it at all. Think of it rather as you're trying to help this employer solve a problem. You're on the same side of the table with them. You're essentially a consultant for them. Their problem is... Hey, I've got this role. I have this challenge in my company. I have this opportunity. I have this thing that I need help with and I need to find who's going to be able to help me do that. And so you're essentially being an advisor for them and sharing here's how my previous experiences and what I've done in the past might be able to help you with your challenges. So it's really, it's really a partnership type of conversation where you're exploring, well, what are you struggling with? and how, let me share ways that I think I might be able to help. I think having that mindset is a lot more helpful for people who are more collaborative in nature. I think there's also a part of it that is getting really clear on how your work has actually delivered results. Being really confident, a lot of folks who are more collaborative in nature, which is a lot of people that I work with. tend to really get stuck in the we. So they say, we deliver this, we manage this, we strategize in this way. And then the interviewer ends up losing the thread of, well, what did this person sitting across from me do? What did they lead? What did they manage versus what did they do collaboratively? so getting really clear and even getting some language around how to talk about your contributions with respect to the team. So saying, I led this strategy session or I facilitated the collaboration of this, or I made the suggestion to people who then made a decision. Those kind of nuanced pieces of communication can help us feel more comfortable with actually owning our story in a way that doesn't feel gross. Brian Milner (06:39) Yeah, I think you make a great point there about the partnership aspect of it because having been on both sides of the table there, I know when I was hiring people as a software manager of some kind, the thought is always when the person comes in, you want to hire them. When they've reached that stage, when you finally bring them in, you're excited about the people that you decided to bring in and you're pulling for them. You want them to actually be successful. So I think it's important to keep that in mind too, that they want you to be successful. They want that role filled or they wouldn't have put out the job wreck and all the other things. If you, so let's just kind of talk through on a practical level. If you, you've done the work, you've put out the resume, you've got the call, maybe you've even gone through, well, I guess we should talk about that as well. Kind of the difference between a virtual or phone interview and an in-person interview. Is there a difference in level of prep or in how you, you know. tricks to being more successful if it's virtual versus in person. Tali Shlafer (07:50) I think the preparation itself should be the same. At the end of the day, your preparation should be about what are the challenges that this company, that this organization is facing and how does this role help solve those challenges? What are the skills? What are the top five skills that I need to demonstrate? Hard and soft skills. And in order to show them that I can be the top performer for this role and what are stories that I can share for each one of those skills. to prove that, I have what it takes, I can actually walk the walk as well. I've gotten results in this area before. So the prep work itself in the days leading up to the interview should be more or less the same. I would say the difference between a virtual interview versus an in-person interview is just people's comfort level. I think a lot of people are really comfortable in in-person interviews because it feels like you're actually talking to a human, right? You have a full-size person sitting across from the table from you. So it's a lot more comfortable. And I think even though through COVID, we had a lot more virtual conversations, there's still a very performative feeling element to it when it comes to virtual interviews. So one of my top tips for virtual interviews is please turn off your self view. So if you're in the Zoom call and if you're in a meeting, because it makes people so nervous and self-conscious. So when you get on that Zoom call, that Teams call, whatever platform you're using, make sure you're in the frame, right? Make sure that your lighting is good, all that stuff, and then turn off that camera so that you're not just watching yourself and being super self-conscious the entire time. Because think about it, in what other context in your life, when you're having a conversation with someone, do you have a mirror that you're looking at? Brian Milner (09:36) Right, right, I mean, if you're in their interview room, unless there's a mirror all the way around, you're not really getting that view. And even if you did, you probably wouldn't watch yourself in the mirror the entire time. So yeah, that's a great tip. And I think you're absolutely right. It can lead to being very, very self-conscious then. I think it's, I want to go back a little bit to the prep because I think your tip there is a really important thing is to try to understand the challenges, understand what it is they're looking for. And it just struck me as you were saying that it seems very similar to, in my kind of line of work, I do a lot of consulting work with people. And when I have a client that's a prospective client, it's almost the same thing. where you have to research a little bit about the company ahead of time. If you're doing kind of a sales call prior to the engagement, it's very similar. And I just thought about that. There is an overlap there between that and job interviews because you are selling yourself. You are selling your services to that company. Tali Shlafer (10:36) And a lot of people, here's another mistake that a lot of people, a lot of well-meaning people make is as part of their prep work, going online and finding a bunch of questions that they can then prepare for. So it's a very, I kind of call it whack-a-mole where, hey, let me try to figure out all the possible questions I might get asked and write out answers for those. Brian Milner (10:51) Ha ha. Tali Shlafer (10:59) That might get some people results. And if it's getting you results, that's great. But what I really encourage people to do is really reverse engineer your talking points from the job description, from what you know, even, you know, once you've had the conversation with the recruiter, you know, a little bit more about the position than maybe is even listed on the job description. So compile everything that you know about this opportunity and figure out, okay, what are the most important things for me to be able to articulate rather than just guessing at. random questions that the internet says you might get asked. Brian Milner (11:32) Yeah, that's a great point. I know we all want to get past that and get to the job, but I think there's also an element there of, let's say you do memorize these questions and they just happen to ask you the exact questions you had prepared for. If you don't really have that knowledge, then you're not going to really do well in that job even if you get it. So it's almost a blessing to not get that job, you know, if you didn't know that information, because they're going to be counting on you to do that. And you're not going to be a you're not going to do your job well then. Yeah. Tali Shlafer (12:06) Yeah, and the memorizing piece that you just mentioned is really, really easy for people to fall into the trap of trying to memorize their answers, especially with chat GPT and AI. Everybody's thinking, well, let's use these AI tools to help us come up with interview answers. so we plug in, job seekers will plug in, here's a bunch of questions that I might get. Look at my resume, tell me how can I answer these questions? And it feels safe. It feels like, this very smart robot or technology is gonna say this in a better way than I can. Brian Milner (12:36) you Tali Shlafer (12:40) But it really sets people up for failure most of the time because number one, most people aren't good at memorizing things, right? Most of us don't have to do that as our job. So most of us are really bad at memorizing. Number two, it makes you sound like a robot. It doesn't sound human. You lose the attention of the person who you're talking with. And number three, doesn't when you just memorize answers rather than thinking about it as what are talking points that I can riff off, riff on and kind of reuse and recycle and tell stories with. When you memorize, it puts you in the position of, well, yeah, it's great if they ask you that exact question. And some questions you will get asked, like tell me about yourself, you're going to get 99 % of the time. But for the most part, if you memorize a set of 10 questions and one of those questions gets a slight variation, or they ask a question that's not on there, you end up panicking. You don't know how to think on your feet because you're reliant on your tool. You've used AI or you've used your script as a strategy rather than a tool. Brian Milner (13:42) Yeah, that's a great point. I'm kind of wanting to get your take on this because this is a big thing that I know often comes up in these kinds of interviews is those questions that we all hate to get that you just know, no one ever knows how to answer these things. So I'm just curious how you advise people, you know, the awful question like, you know, give me some of your weaknesses or give me some of the things that you're not good at. How do you advise people to handle those kind of questions when they get asked in interviews? Tali Shlafer (14:14) Yeah, so there are definitely some questions that we tend to hear more often than others, especially when it comes to those recruiter interviews. The tell me about yourself, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? Tell me about a time you had to deal with a conflict. Tell me about a time you had to deal with a mistake. Those are pretty common, I would say, in that initial recruiter conversation. It's always an interview in my book. The weakness question I know is one of the that and the tell me about yourself is what really stresses people out. Brian Milner (14:40) Ha Tali Shlafer (14:43) My general advice for the weakness is actually something that I heard Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychology at Wharton share, which is pick something that is real but not disqualifying. So if you're an Agilist, your weakness should probably not be scrum or not be, you know, understanding business requirements. But it could be something like public speaking. Brian Milner (15:00) Ha Tali Shlafer (15:08) Or it could be something like delegating, where, you know, it's something real and it's not... It's something authentic. Authenticity is really, really important, especially nowadays in interviews. But it doesn't stop you from being able to perform well. So what I typically advise is pick a weakness, like Adam Grant says, that's real but not disqualifying. And this is important, and where a lot of people miss out, share what are you doing to actually address it? Because what we want to do, the point of that question isn't tell us what's wrong with you so we can judge you and disqualify you from the job. It's the subcontext of it is do you have self-awareness? Are you somebody who is aware enough and humble enough to know your shortcomings? And are you someone who's proactive about fixing them? and about becoming a better person. So the second part of that answer should be, well, what have you done to try to improve? What are specific steps that you've taken in order to improve? Brian Milner (16:09) Yeah, that's a great response. I know I've heard the traditional, you try to say one of your strengths as, I guess my weakness is I work too hard, like that kind of thing. Which I agree, it's not sincere. If I'm hearing that and I'm interviewing someone, that could disqualify him in my book, because I could think, this person is not going be honest with me. ⁓ Tali Shlafer (16:20) Yeah. or the I'm a perfectionist piece? The most common answer to that question. Brian Milner (16:33) Alright, I'm a perfectionist, right? Yeah, exactly. Well, you hit on the other big one too, the tell me about yourself. How do you advise people to handle that? Do you have a script in mind? you kind of detail out a couple of things? What's important to hit when someone asks you to just tell me about yourself? Tali Shlafer (16:54) Yeah, I'm a big fan of formulas over scripts. So I'll share my formula, but let me share a couple things that derail people. Let's kind of establish what's not helpful. And then we can kind of talk about this formula, which by the way, lots of different career coaches have different formulas. There's not necessarily one that works. It's just pick something and learn to do it really well. A lot of people will go in and start well. I graduated from the University of Washington in 1995, and they give kind of their entire history. And we lose the interviewer right away when we do that. So rather than giving them a chronological history of everything that's happened in your career and asking them, when we do that, we are essentially asking them, hey, here's all this information and data. You make sense of it. You figure out how it's relevant to you. I think it's actually really kind to use a formula to help them understand. Here's everything you need to know about me as it pertains to this role. So taking everything, taking your history and your career through the filter of what is important to demonstrate for this role. So the formula that I teach is sharing a super quick background. Hey, I'm Tali, I've been a project manager for the last 10 years. That's not true, that's not, let me reset that. So I think starting with a very brief. Brian Milner (18:12) You Tali Shlafer (18:16) sentence about yourself, your relevant role, how long you've had experience. Hey, I'm John. I've been project manager for the last 10 years, sharing the three key skills that you need to have in order to succeed at this job. And for each of those three skills, can you list an accomplishment or a metric or a success story? And we're not telling a whole story. We're just giving them here's the highlight reel, here's the headline, and then you'll click into all of those stories later. So quick little background about yourself, three main skills that you've developed that are relevant for this role, and super high level accomplishment to demonstrate those skills. So that's a little bit, that kind of is the first half, and that talks more about your previous experiences. And then in the second half of this answer, we want to pivot it to the future. So the first half is really about the past, it's about yourself. And then in the second half, we want to pivot to the future. what are you looking for in your next role? And hopefully that thing is also in that, that whatever you're looking for in your next role should dovetail really nicely into what they're offering as a company and as, as a, as an organization. What are you looking for specifically in your next role? And why are you so excited about interviewing with this company? And we want to share something really specific that We want to share something specific that feels personal. Where a lot of people go wrong is they'll share something like, I really want growth in my next role. And I'm excited about this team because I know you guys really value innovation. That doesn't really tell us anything. So we want one level of detail lower. So I'm really excited. What I really want in my next role is more leadership opportunities, so opportunities to mentor. And I'm really excited about this particular opportunities because I looked on your website, I looked at your blog posts, I looked at your, you know, CEO's posts that they share on LinkedIn. And I can tell that this is a really important part of your culture is being able to mentor people up into higher positions, right? Getting that specific, and there's not a right answer. I remember when I was interviewing for... out of college, I was interviewing for T-Mobile for an internship. And my answer was, I've talked to a lot of people, I've networked with a lot of people at T-Mobile. And one thing that really strikes me is the fact that a lot of people will leave for local companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and then they come back. There's a lot of people who spend a lot of time here. really does. There's a lot of loyalty and the culture, like I shared things that are specific to the culture and there's not a right answer here. It just needs to be. specific and it needs to be something that when you talk about it you kind of start getting butterflies because that's contagious. Brian Milner (21:07) That's awesome. Well, I want to ask about kind of the other half of the interview or the other portion of the interview as well. They, you know, I often hear people say, you know, you should walk into the interview understanding that it's a two way interview. They're interviewing you, but you're interviewing them as well because you want to know, is this the right place for me? So I can make the right decision about where I'm going to end up. What kind of things do you advise people to ask about or to focus on? What are some things that might expose some hidden things about the organization, warning signs or anything like that that might pop up in an interview to ask about? Tali Shlafer (21:45) That's a really good question. think one thing, it really depends on the opportunity and what you're looking for. So I don't think that there's one magic question that if you ask it, oh, the person's gonna be super impressed. Let me back up. What I really like about what you just said, is the framing of the questions that you ask at the end as a two-way conversation and as a way for you to understand more about the company so you can see if it's a good fit. I think a lot of people, especially in tough job markets, tend to kind of close their eyes and hope they get something and they almost blind themselves to the fact that they need to also do the work to make sure that it's a good fit. Or I see a lot of people who go, well, what can I ask that's impressive? What questions can I ask that's going to really wow them at the end, rather than seeing it as an opportunity to really understand what they offer more? So I would sit down and prioritize what is really important for you in a culture. if getting feedback, if growth is important for you, making sure to ask about, can you tell me about recently on your team, somebody who was promoted or how you helped somebody grow in the company? The best way that we can learn about something is through examples. The best proof that somebody values something is through the examples that they share. So we want to ask, kind of like you hear behavioral questions, you get asked, like, tell me about a time when. You can also use that, figure out what's important for you, and then create. Ask questions specifically about those things. One question that I think can be really helpful to get you to get a sense of what kind of person succeeds on this team and what the team really values is kind of the inverse of that. can you tell me about, can you tell me about what type of person doesn't do well here? Because then if they say, you know, The type of person who doesn't do well here isn't committed to working 60 hours a week. They expect to take their vacations and not be able to unplug. That kind of being able to hear who isn't successful gives you some context around some of their values as well. Brian Milner (24:01) Yeah, that's an excellent question because I agree. Presumably, this is someone you're going to be working with if you get the job. That immediate relationship, think, is going to really be impactful on the expectations, that sort of thing. Yeah, if I'm interviewing and I ask that kind of question, and they do come back and say, yeah, the person who doesn't work 60 hours or anything. Yeah, that's a good sign that maybe this is, I don't know, unless I enjoy working 60 hours a week, that maybe this is not the right cultural fit for me. So that's an excellent question, because I think that would expose some of that behind the scenes stuff, cultural things. ⁓ Tali Shlafer (24:42) And you really want to ask about questions about your dynamic with the manager. So what kind of people succeed under them? Because that's the number one people. I believe I'd have to fact check this, but you always hear that the number one people reason people don't like their jobs or people leave their jobs is because of their boss. So you want to understand you're essentially going on a date with them and you want to understand what is it like to hang out with you for 40 hours a week? Brian Milner (25:05) you Tali Shlafer (25:09) So asking specific questions to really understand what's their working style, what are their expectations, what are their positive experiences, what does feedback look like? Is it a once a year thing? Is it a every time we touch base during our one-on-ones you get feedback? That is really important. The other thing that's important to think about is do you understand the role itself? Like what questions do you have? What gaps in your understanding do you have about the role? Really clarifying to make sure that you know what you're signing up for. Brian Milner (25:40) Yeah, that's a great response as well. I know I remember from back in the day getting told that it's a good kind of question to ask what would success look like? If you really got someone to nail this and you were really happy with the hire and it was perfect, what would be the biggest thing that would contribute to that? And I've always liked that approach as well because it kind of gives you the expectation from the start to know here's what's most important in that manager's mind of what they're looking for. Yeah, just in my memory of interviewing people, would say I've never, I don't think I've ever not hired someone because of a question that they asked at the end, but... I have felt sometimes like when they don't ask questions that they're a little unprepared. Tali Shlafer (26:30) Yeah, and I think it, I think part of the not asking questions, one is being not prepared, not thinking thoroughly about the job. But it's also a little bit of a sense of desperation, like, I've been applying for four months, I don't care, I'm willing to take anything. So I don't have questions, because let me just take any first job that comes available. There's kind of that mindset. And I think it manifests as, I don't have any questions. And I think Brian Milner (26:48) You Tali Shlafer (26:58) People can kind of feel that when you're not critical, when you're not trying to figure out, am I really going to be able to succeed here? People kind of pick up on that and it either looks like desperation or it looks like disengagement and disinterest. We want people not, we don't want to hire the first person off the street who can do the job. We want to hire somebody who's excited to be there and who we know isn't going to leave six months later when they find something better. Brian Milner (27:23) Yeah, that's really good. Well, this has been really enlightening. I think there's a lot of gems in here that I think people can apply. we all find ourselves in that position from time to time of having to interview for things. As I said, even as a consultant, it's an interview when you talk to a potential new client. So I think these are all really great tips for that. We're going to make sure that there's contact information for Tali at the show notes of this so you can get a hold of her. Anything you want to shout out about, any places you want to point people to to get in contact with you? Tali Shlafer (27:56) So for the last few years, I've been posting usually about two short form videos a day to LinkedIn, all the social medias. Over the last couple of years, I've posted over 700 short form videos on social media. I've actually had over a hundred million views on LinkedIn, which is really crazy. Somebody recognized me at the dog park the other day, which was wild. But I created an interview tip-ball that took the best... The most helpful videos the ones that have gone viral received the best feedback gotten people the biggest results in their interviews And I compiled them all in one Interview tip bolt so that's my little thing that I like to share with people You'll see everything in there from how to tell me about yourself To answering why do people ramble and what other mistakes are people making? and also special tips for senior leaders and executives. So that's my little freebie that I like to share out for folks who are interested in the stuff that I'm talking about. Brian Milner (28:56) Awesome, awesome. we will definitely make that available to people in the show notes and links to your socials as well so people can follow you and stay on top of your tips as they come out. So thank you so much for coming on, Tali, and I appreciate you spending some time with us and sharing your knowledge with us. Tali Shlafer (29:13) Thanks so much, Brian. It was a pleasure.

Hoe bouw je een AI-agent die niet alleen intern wordt gebruikt, maar écht in contact staat met je klanten? In deze aflevering is Thomas te gast, AI-strateeg bij CM.com. Hij helpt bedrijven bij het ontwikkelen van customer facing agents – denk aan een shopping assistent die via jouw platform producten aanbeveelt, volledig afgestemd op de klant én jouw merk. Dit is de grote volgende stap in AI. Maar waar begin je? Hoe bouw je betrouwbare agents die passen bij je merkidentiteit? En hoe voorkom je dat ze fouten maken, zoals hallucinaties of het geven van verkeerde adviezen? Thomas deelt concrete voorbeelden, tooling, valkuilen én best practices om morgen al zelf te starten. In deze aflevering hebben we het over: customer facing agents, AI-strategie, conversational commerce, merkidentiteit, productdata, personalisatie, AI-tooling, guardrailing, AI-risico's, CM.com, next-gen klantervaring. Over deze podcast: Deze aflevering is onderdeel van de speciale reeks ‘AI in Product Development', onderdeel van de Product Owner podcast. In de Product Owner podcast spreken we elke week met een interessante gast uit de wereld van product management en gaan we in op echte ervaringen, lessen en tactieken van product owners, ondernemers en specialisten. De Product Owner podcast is een initiatief van productowner.nl

“Agile is not just for software — it's for solving problems anywhere there's complexity:"At Scan Agile 2025, Jim and Sander dive into a thought-provoking conversation with Michal Epstein about the transformative power of agility beyond traditional tech environments. Discover how agile principles can be applied in diverse fields like biotech and construction, and learn about the importance of stakeholder collaboration and value-driven approaches. Key takeaways include understanding that agile is a mindset transcending industries, the crucial role of stakeholder engagement, the benefits for non-tech teams, the importance of communication and transparency, and insights into value-based pricing.Connect with Michal: (14) Michal Epstein | LinkedInCheck out our sponsor:www.xebia.comwww.wiserbees.comwww.masteringagility.orgHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In dieser Folge sprechen Oliver und Dominique über ein Thema, das oft unterschätzt wird und trotzdem die Arbeit eines ganzen Produktteams prägen kann: die Produktvision. Beide erleben in ihrer Arbeit immer wieder, wie stark der Unterschied ist zwischen einer Vision, die nur an einer Wand hängt, und einer, die tatsächlich im Team gelebt wird. Eine gute Produktvision gibt nämlich Richtung und Sinn. Sie hilft, Entscheidungen einzuordnen, Prioritäten zu setzen und auch schwierige Diskussionen schneller aufzulösen. Vor allem schafft sie ein gemeinsames Verständnis darüber, wofür das Team eigentlich antritt. Doch genau das ist die Herausforderung: eine Vision so zu entwickeln, dass sie nicht nur von Product Owner oder Führung formuliert wird, sondern dass das gesamte Team sie verinnerlicht. Es ist wichtig, dass Teams gemeinsam an ihrer Produktvision arbeiten. Dabei geht es nicht um den perfekten Satz, sondern darum, im Austausch ein Bild zu schaffen, das alle teilen können. Solche Prozesse machen eine Vision greifbar und verhindern, dass sie als reine Management-Vorgabe wahrgenommen wird. Wer von Anfang an beteiligt ist, fühlt sich verbunden und handelt eher danach. Damit eine Produktvision nach der Entwicklung aber nicht in Vergessenheit gerät, braucht es mehr als nur einen guten Start. Sie muss regelmäßig im Alltag auftauchen: im Planning, wenn über Prioritäten entschieden wird, im Review, wenn Ergebnisse eingeordnet werden, oder auch in Retrospektiven, wenn das Team reflektiert, ob es auf dem richtigen Weg ist. Eine Vision, die so verankert ist, bleibt lebendig und entwickelt sich weiter, ohne ihre Orientierungskraft zu verlieren. Besonders wertvoll wird eine Produktvision auch beim Onboarding. Neue Teammitglieder verstehen schneller, warum das Produkt existiert und welchen Unterschied es macht. Wenn nicht nur Product Owner:innen, sondern auch Entwicklerinnen und Designer:innen die Vision erzählen können, zeigt das, dass sie wirklich Teil der gemeinsamen Arbeit geworden ist. Oliver und Dominique machen deutlich: Eine Produktvision entfaltet ihre Wirkung nicht durch Worte allein, sondern dadurch, dass sie im Team geteilt und immer wieder neu mit Leben gefüllt wird. Sie ist der Kompass, der allen hilft, auch in komplexen Situationen die Richtung nicht zu verlieren. Wenn euch das Thema Produktvisionen interessiert findet ihr hier noch mehr passende Folgen: Wie die Produktvision hilft, Product Ownern eine Richtung zu geben (https://produktwerker.de/wie-die-produktvision-hilft-product-ownern-eine-richtung-zu-geben/) Warum Product Owner die Unternehmensvision kennen sollten (https://produktwerker.de/unternehmensvision/)

BONUS: The Platform-as-Product Revolution: How to Turn Your Biggest Cost Center Into Your Secret Weapon With Alvaro Lorente In this BONUS episode we explore a topic that's creating a lot of discussion—and sometimes confusion—in the software community: Platform Teams vs DevOps. In this conversation, we dive into Alvaro Lorente's journey from delivery teams to platform leadership, exploring how to treat platforms as products, avoid common pitfalls, and build bridges between engineering and product leadership. The Evolution from DevOps Role to Platform Team "DevOps is a culture, not a role." Alvaro's journey into platform work began when he joined a company where the infrastructure team was left behind and struggling with traditional DevOps approaches. Initially, they had a single DevOps person who became a bottleneck rather than an enabler. This experience highlighted a fundamental misunderstanding that many organizations face—treating DevOps as a job title rather than a cultural shift toward collaboration and shared responsibility. The team experimented with a "DevOps buddy" approach, placing experienced individuals within each delivery team, before eventually consolidating into a dedicated platform team with the clear intention of treating it as a product-focused unit. Platform as a Product: A Scaling Strategy "Platform as a product is a scaling strategy. Look for common problems that you can then solve once, and serve many." The concept of treating platforms as products emerged from recognizing that feature delivery teams have continuity and ongoing needs that a platform team should serve. Rather than solving their own problems first, successful platform teams focus on making other teams' work easier and more comfortable while managing costs effectively. This approach requires identifying common problems across multiple teams and creating solutions that can be implemented once but serve many. The key insight is that platform teams exist to facilitate the delivery of value in a scalable way for other teams, not to pursue their own technical interests. Understanding Your Customer and Validating Value "I want to see platform team members talking to their customers. Understand their pains, and what they struggle with." Effective platform teams operate like any other product team by actively listening to their customer-teams rather than pushing ideas onto them. This means platform team members should regularly engage with their internal customers to understand pain points and struggles. Success requires defining clear KPIs for the platform and focusing on the quality of deliverables including release notes, demos, bug fixing processes, and feature prioritization. The validation comes from observing whether teams willingly adopt platform features rather than being mandated to use them. Building Bridges with Product Leadership "Focus on the key impact and value that the platform team can bring to the company." Making the case for investing product talent in platform teams requires demonstrating concrete business value. This includes quantifying how many incidents are being resolved faster or prevented entirely, and highlighting the money saved through internal platform development versus external solutions. Platform work offers excellent growth opportunities for Product Owners, serving as a training ground for product thinking and stakeholder management. The focus should always be on measurable impact rather than technical complexity. Avoiding Common Platform Team Traps "Don't just start working on what you think is important! Start with the Product process, listen to the client-teams, and help them directly." When standing up a platform team, several critical mistakes can derail success. The most important trap to avoid is immediately diving into what the platform team thinks is important without first understanding customer needs. Platform teams should resist delivery pressure that might compromise quality and never mandate adoption of their features—teams should want to use what the platform provides. Treating the platform as a genuine product with quality standards is essential, and leaders should view the creation of a platform team as the beginning of a change management process rather than just a technical reorganization. Resources and Continuous Learning "One size does NOT fit all!" For teams looking to improve their platform work, Alvaro recommends Camille Fournier's work on platform teams and resources focused on "The value of product thinking in platform teams." The key is to get experiments running within your team and recognize that there's no universal solution—each organization must find its own path based on its unique context and needs. About Alvaro Lorente Currently Director of Engineering at Voxel (an Amadeus company), Alvaro is a software engineer who has grown in the people leadership path, experimenting with everything from product development to startups and open source projects. He embraces the idea of being a jack of all trades, helping wherever needed to drive value and impact. You can connect with Alvaro Lorente on LinkedIn and follow his insights through his Substack newsletter titled Leads Horizons.

Irene Castagnotto: Building Bridges—How Great Product Owners Create Team Alignment Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: Building Trust Through Transparency and Purpose Irene emphasizes that exceptional Product Owners excel at building trust with their teams by consistently sharing the "why" behind decisions and features. They trust their teams completely and ensure that team members understand the purpose and reasoning behind every request. This transparency creates a foundation of mutual trust where teams feel confident in the Product Owner's direction. Great Product Owners use moments when features don't work as expected as opportunities to explore and reinforce the underlying purpose, turning potential setbacks into learning experiences that strengthen team understanding and alignment. The Bad Product Owner: When Stories Replace Truth Irene witnessed a Product Owner who, when facing difficult client conversations without positive information to share, chose to "make up stories" rather than being transparent about challenges. This lack of honesty led to delivering something the client couldn't accept, resulting in an angry client during the demo. This anti-pattern of using "good words" instead of honest communication ultimately damages client relationships and team credibility. The lesson learned: Product Owners must be transparent with clients about what is and isn't possible, even when the news is difficult to deliver. Self-reflection Question: How do you balance protecting your team from client frustration while maintaining the transparency necessary for successful product development? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Irene Castagnotto: The Risk-Aware Scrum Master: Preventing Problems Before They Happen Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Irene defines success for Scrum Masters as helping teams anticipate and manage risks before they become unexpected problems. She focuses on ensuring teams don't face surprise risks during sprints and don't start work with missing requirements. Her approach includes using user story mapping with Product Owners to visualize potential risks and maintaining team happiness as a key success indicator. For Irene, creating a positive team environment is a crucial deliverable that Scrum Masters must actively work on. She emphasizes the importance of listening to team feedback and regularly assessing whether the team feels supported and engaged. In this segment, we refer to W. Edwards Deming, and his famous quote “a bad system will beat a good person, every time!” Featured Retrospective Format for the Week: The Good/Bad/Risk Retrospective This retrospective format works particularly well with younger teams and uses humor to help teams discuss emotionally challenging topics. The format focuses on three key areas: what went well (Good), what didn't work (Bad), and what potential risks the team sees ahead (Risk). Irene recommends this approach because it helps teams surface risks that aren't visible to anyone else, creating opportunities to address potential problems proactively. By incorporating the language of risk into everyday conversations, teams become more aware of potential challenges and can plan accordingly. The humor element helps reduce the emotional intensity that often accompanies difficult discussions about team performance and challenges. In this segment, we refer to the book “How to Make Good Things Happen: Know Your Brain, Enhance Your Life” by Marian Rojas Estape. Self-reflection Question: How comfortable is your team with discussing risks openly, and what techniques could you use to make these conversations more approachable? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Irene Castagnotto: When Proactive Help Backfires - A Gen Z Scrum Master's Learning Journey Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Irene shares a valuable lesson about the pitfalls of being overly proactive without proper communication. As a new Scrum Master, she observed Product Owners struggling with role changes and took initiative to help them understand and implement changes. However, she discovered that her well-intentioned proposals weren't aligned with what the POs actually wanted. The key insight: when people don't speak up during your proposals, it often means they're not on board but are avoiding conflict. Irene learned that asking questions and letting others express what changes they're ready for is far more effective than assuming what help is needed. Self-reflection Question: How can you better gauge whether your team is genuinely on board with your suggestions, especially when they remain silent during discussions? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Somya Mehra: When Technical Expertise Becomes Product Owner Micro-Management Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Clear Communicator and Dependency Master Somya worked with an exceptional Product Owner on a project with multiple team dependencies. This PO excelled at clear, direct communication with both stakeholders and the team. They were proactive in stakeholder communication and maintained strong focus on what was needed and why. Their backlog management was exemplary, creating proper epics with comprehensive information including dependencies, enabling the team to easily know who to contact. This approach led to a much more motivated team. The Bad Product Owner: The Technical Micro-Manager Somya encountered a technically strong Product Owner whose knowledge became a liability. While technical strength can be beneficial, this PO used their expertise to control the team, telling developers exactly what solutions to implement. Initially, developers accepted this direction, but it escalated to every feature and task. The developers became uncomfortable voicing their perspectives, creating an unhealthy dynamic where the PO's technical knowledge stifled team autonomy and creativity. Self-reflection Question: How do you help Product Owners leverage their technical knowledge without falling into micro-management patterns? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Somya Mehra: From Top-Down to Collaborative—Reimagining Organizational Restructuring Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. During a business unit split and reorganization focused on creating smaller teams, Somya and her fellow Scrum Masters were invited to create the new structure process. After hearing feedback that teams felt excluded from previous changes, they decided to include teams in the reorganization process to give them a sense of control. They started by asking top management for constraints, then applied them to see what was possible. They facilitated workshops with Product Owners to divide the product portfolio and determine team assignments, ensuring people felt involved in the change process. Self-reflection Question: When leading organizational change, how do you balance the need for structure with giving teams meaningful input into decisions that affect them? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

In this episode of the Small Business PR Podcast, I sit down with Kim Behzadi, founder of Read It & Eat—a purpose-driven food and book subscription box that fights hunger with every purchase.Launched from her bedroom after losing her job during the pandemic, Kim bootstrapped her business with no investors, no PR background, and no big-name endorsements. Today, she's been featured in Women's Day, local magazines, and podcasts—without spending thousands on PR retainers or flooding the media with free samples.If you're a product-based founder who wants consistent, cost-free press, this episode is your blueprint.How Kim Built a PR System That Delivers Year-Round FeaturesAfter joining the PR Starter Pack, Kim learned to:Pitch with purpose, not desperationBuild relationships with journalists through LinkedIn, Instagram, and even TwitterAdapt pitches for national vs. local media to maximize relevancePlant PR “seeds” months in advance to secure Q4 gift guide placementsHer Women's Day feature led to:A 40% increase in website trafficLocal partnerships like a Buffalo book club and tea shop collaborationInvitations to vend at book fairs and community eventsA direct connection with a Harlequin author for a special edition boxWhy Serving (Not Selling) Gets You FeaturedKim stopped leading with “Here's my product” and started pitching with “Here's a story your audience will love.” This value-first approach helped her:Land coverage without sending dozens of samplesGet invited to collaborate with brands and authors she once thought were “out of reach”Build a press system she can run in just two dedicated nights per weekKim's PR Tools & StrategiesLinkedIn & Instagram to find and connect with journalistsEmail + social media follow-ups to stay top-of-mind without spammingSeasonal pitching calendar to target: Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, Back-to-School, Holidays, and themed brand roundupsThe CPR Method (Credibility, Point of View, Relevance) to craft irresistible pitchesCommon PR Mistakes Kim AvoidedOverspending on product samples before confirming interestWaiting for the “perfect” moment to start pitchingRelying solely on social media for visibilityFinal TakeawayYou don't need an expensive PR firm—or a massive marketing budget—to land in national gift guides. What you do need is: ✅ A clear, value-driven message ✅ A repeatable system ✅ The courage to hit “send”If Kim can build Read It & Eat from her bedroom and land Women's Day, so can you.

Florian Georgescu: How Decision Journals Can Transform Product Owner Behavior Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Humble Learner Florian describes a Product Owner who started from scratch with business knowledge but no PO experience. This exemplary PO demonstrated transparency and engagement in their communication style, showed humility in recognizing knowledge gaps, and actively built strong relationships with the team. They used practical tools like a Product Canvas shared with the team, implemented "Story Time Tuesdays" for informal refinement sessions, and introduced feature learning cards to assess impact and learn from completed work. This PO's success came from embracing the learning journey openly and creating collaborative environments where both they and the team could grow together. The Bad Product Owner: The Command-and-Control Controller Florian encountered a Product Owner who transitioned from 20 years in project management, bringing a command-and-control style that frustrated the development team. Despite having good business and technical knowledge, this PO made technical decisions for the team without allowing input, particularly challenging since they were in a different location. Florian addressed this through a "decision journal" experiment over three sprints, documenting every product decision and analyzing their impact during retrospectives. This approach served as a powerful mirror, clearly showing that technical decisions made without team input produced poor results, ultimately helping both the PO and team recognize the importance of collaborative decision-making. Self-reflection Question: How does your Product Owner balance their expertise with the team's input, and what tools could help improve this collaboration? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Join Brian and Mike Cohn as they unpack the five essential pillars that take Agile from “just the motions” to meaningful, measurable impact. Plus, get a behind-the-scenes look at their revamped course built for real team transformation. Overview In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian is joined by longtime collaborator and Agile thought leader Mike Cohn for a deep dive into what really makes Agile stick. They explore the five foundational pillars—mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team—and share stories of what happens when teams get them wrong (like obsessing over story point math or demoing a copyright update in a sprint review). Along the way, they introduce the newly available Working on a Scrum Team public course and explain why it’s designed for entire teams, not just isolated roles. Whether you're new to Agile or knee-deep in transformation, this episode will help you rethink how to build an Agile approach that actually works. References and resources mentioned in the show: Mike Cohn #80: From Struggling to Success: Reviving Agile Teams with Mike Cohn Scrum Team Roles and Responsibilities Working on a Scrum Team Course Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast Want to get involved? This show is designed for you, and we’d love your input. Enjoyed what you heard today? Please leave a rating and a review. It really helps, and we read every single one. Got an Agile subject you’d like us to discuss or a question that needs an answer? Share your thoughts with us at podcast@mountaingoatsoftware.com This episode’s presenters are: Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work. Mike Cohn, CEO of Mountain Goat Software, is a passionate advocate for agile methodologies. Co-founder of Agile Alliance and Scrum Alliance, he thrives on helping companies succeed with Agile and witnessing its transformative impact on individuals' careers. Mike resides in Northern Idaho with his family, two Havanese dogs, and an impressive hot sauce collection. Auto-generated Transcript: Brian Milner (00:00) Welcome in, Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm with you, as always, Brian Milner. And today, I have the one and only Mike Cohn back with us. Welcome in, Mike. Mike (00:12) Thanks, Brian. Good to be here. Brian Milner (00:14) Always happy to have Mike on the show and really appreciate Mike making time to come on. Wanted to have Mike on because there's some things Mike's been talking about recently that are really interesting and people have been asking a little bit about this and I thought maybe it'd be just a good opportunity to talk through some of the stuff that Mike's been writing about. I know you spent, Mike, a lot of time helping teams to not just do Agile but to really get solid results from it. to see impact from it. And I know the topic you've been talking about recently is sort of these five pillars of supporting real agile improvements, the mindset, practices, roles, teamwork, and support beyond the team. So I thought maybe we could just dig in and drive through those and maybe learn a little bit about those as we go. Obviously also to talk a little bit about the exciting new course that's being launched here, the working on a Scrum team course, because I know that was originally just for private classes, right? And now it's being open to the public. Mike (01:23) Yeah, we've done working on a Scrum team as a private class for probably 20 plus years. It's been kind of our main offering to private clients. But we're hearing from a lot of people that they have one team and they can't really get a private class approved with the budget and such. So what we're doing is going ahead and making that course available as a public course. So two people from your company, five people from another company all in the same class the way we've done our certified courses for decades. And so we're going to start offering this as a public course. And the exciting thing there is that it's really meant to be a team-based class, where things like Scrum Master training, great class, but it's really meant for the Scrum Master, right? And working on a Scrum team is really designed, and you and I helped you and I design this course together, but it's designed to be something that is a whole team training, right? So good for anybody on a team. Brian Milner (02:16) Yeah, yeah, it's been really great teaching those in the private classes and I'm excited to think about the public being able to come in and take that now. Let's talk a little bit about these pillars and, I think people are gonna be really intrigued by the concept here. The first one is mindset, I think, and just wanna start there and say, what does it actually mean to... think Agile and what is the found, why is that kind of the foundation for successful transformations? Mike (02:43) Remember the kind of the early days of agile and there was a lot of conversation about could you be agile without understanding the principles, right? If you just did the practices, were you agile? Other people were saying, no, you have to start with the principles, right? And so do you start with principles? Do you start with practices? And I remember these early debates and they often devolved into a discussion of the karate kid movie, right? Remember that one, right? And, you know, can you just wax on? Brian Milner (03:12) Ha Mike (03:12) for long enough, just do the practices. And then all of a sudden, your karate instructor or your agile coach is, OK, you're agile. And it's like, wait, all I know how to do is wax a car, right? And so there were these discussions about practices versus principles. And I was kind of always on the side where you better understand the principles to do this. Just knowing the practices, waxing on all day, is kind of just going through the motions. And so you have to understand the principles. And the idea that I wanted was that if a team truly understood all of the principles underneath Agile, I don't just mean just the manifesto, but all the principles that are there from Lean, from Kanban, from everything, that if you really understood those, you'd kind of invent the practices, right? You do those and you go eventually to go, hey, we should probably meet every day. Or hey, if we tested first, that might be a really good thing. Brian Milner (03:57) Yeah. Mike (04:05) So you'd invent the practices if you really had that type of agile mindset. And so for me, when we're working with organizations to get them truly agile, and I don't mean like more agile than less agile, but agile in a way that's going to stick, you got to change mindsets, right? You've got to do more than just the wax on. So people have to get the mindset. Brian Milner (04:27) Yeah, I love that. I know that I've experienced some things in the course of working with people that's it's sort of like you, if you're not on the same page with the principles, then you start to talk through the practices and you run up against a problem. And really what you find out the core of it was, well, we weren't aligned on really the principle behind this. So why would I want the practices then, right? ⁓ Mike (04:49) Yeah. Well, that's where you also end up then with a lot of team debates about things, right? Because you're arguing about the practice. if you'll say you and I are arguing about the benefit of some practice, if we agree on the principle, we might just have different views on it. But deep down, we'll probably agree on some practice, or we might find an alternative one. But if you don't agree on the principles, you end up with a lot more of these kind of annoying. mean, team debates are great. I mean, I love. Brian Milner (04:54) Yeah. Mike (05:12) you know, having a team debate, arguing stuff like that, but not about pointless things, right? And not without some sort of foundation. They just kind of get in the way. It's just frustrating for everybody. Brian Milner (05:21) Yeah. Well, I'm kind of curious, what kind of signs or signals do you think teams should look out for to kind of clue in and let them know that what might actually be going on here is more of a mindset issue? Mike (05:36) think sometimes it's when you hear the appeal to authority, right? Somebody says, you know, well, we got to do it this way because the scrum guide says, right? Or the one that annoys me is we have to do it this way because Mike Cohn says, ⁓ you know, that was like, no, I, somewhere else also said, think, right? Don't just, you know, don't just, you know, blindly do story points or something. Cause I say they're a good thing. I want you to think too. Brian Milner (05:50) You You Mike (06:01) And so I think that kind of appeal to authority when teams are debating things. It's where we also see teams who think they're agile because they do a set of practices. We use a particular agile tool, so we must be agile. We do daily meetings. We must be agile. And those are not the things that make you agile. Those are artifacts of being agile. If you're agile, you're going to meet a lot. You're not going meet a lot, but you're going to talk a lot. Um, and so those are the artifacts of behaving in an agile way. And so I want to understand why we're doing those things. So I look for those kind of appeals to authority. Um, you know, emphasis on that type of stuff in an argument talking about how this is the right way saying there's only one right way to do something. Brian Milner (06:49) Yeah, yeah, that's great. How does working on the Scrum team deal with this? How does that address it? Mike (06:55) Well, one of the things we do, it was actually one of my favorite exercises. We do this exercise at the start of the class where we ask people to kind of map out how the organization talks about certain adsel principles and then how does the organization behave. And so for example, if a company says, people are our greatest asset, and then they treat people like dirt, we've got this kind of problem between what we say and what we do. And so I like to kind of map this out. And so we do this with the principles in the Agile Manifesto. And once we map those out and we start to see things that we say we value, but we don't behave that way, really helps us understand if we've really embraced that mindset. Or are we just doing things because an Agile coach told us to, or a boss told us to, or we did it that way in our prior company. Those are all bad reasons to do something. Brian Milner (07:48) Y eah. So this is great. So I agree. The mindset's really foundational. And there is this symbiotic relationship between mindset and practices, which came first and which comes first, as we talked about. I know a lot of teams get stuck doing Agile, though, in really only name only. So when we talk about practices, what makes the difference between going through the motions? Mike (08:00) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (08:11) and actually doing things that work. Mike (08:13) Well, practices is kind of our second pillar, right? You have to have the mindset, right? But you also have to have the practices that come from having that mindset. so, again, I try to think of that team on a desert island, right? And they're isolated from the world. They've never talked to anybody, but they have an agile mindset. What practices are they going to invent, right? And I think those are kind of the core practices. We see a lot of problems with as an example, teams that misunderstand sprint planning. And I know when I first started teaching about sprint planning, I'd have a slide up there to have a picture of a sprint backlog. And the sprint backlog listed tasks like code this, design this, test this. And then there were estimates next to code this. It's going to take four hours testing. It's going to take three. And so we were able see all these numbers and think the point of a sprint planning was these numbers. And Even in the early days of this, I was always saying, no, it's not about those numbers. It's about deciding what product backlog items you can pick. if taking a, I don't even want to call it an estimate, but taking a wild guess about, it probably can take four hours to code. If that helps you decide how many backlog items you can commit to, great, put those numbers up there. But it was never about the numbers. And it's one of the most common problems that I see with teams in sprint planning is they get obsessed with How many hours did we bring in? How many points did we bring in? And I remember one team I worked with where we did sprint planning. Having those estimates were helpful for them on their sprint back. They were helping. And we finished the meeting. And we're using Google Sheets in a meeting to do this. We've got a row with the estimates in there. And as we start to wind down the meeting, I deleted that column that they'd spent so much time talking about. They're all kind of pissed off at me. Why'd you delete that? We spent all this time talking about it. I said, because we got the benefit, right? You got the benefit of those numbers. The benefit isn't a week from now remembering that you said five hours, because it's going to take what it takes. The benefit was the discussion that it led to of can we take more or are we already full? So I see teams get obsessed with that. This is one example, but that's one of the problems with sprint planning as a practice. Brian Milner (10:25) Yeah. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right. And that's one of the things I know I've talked about with people going through the course is sort of understanding the purpose behind the things. Just going back to, know, harkening back to what you said about, don't just do it because someone told you, you know, understand why the purpose behind it. And, know, otherwise we, I'm sure we've all had that experience before where someone just tells you to do something and says, you know, why? Cause I told you so, you know, that, that doesn't, that's not very convincing. Mike (10:52) Thanks, Mom. Brian Milner (10:53) Right, right, thanks mom. Yeah, not very convincing, but it's much more convincing when they can tell you, well, no, you do this because this is what we're trying to do. And I think you're right, that makes all the difference there. ⁓ Mike (11:05) It just, don't know anybody that responds well to being told what to do, right? My instant reaction is no, right? mean, you it could be, you know, a really, you it could be a really good thing. Eat more vegetables, you spend more time outside. No, right? Don't tell me what to do. So. Brian Milner (11:09) Right. Right. Yeah. It's almost like our default response is no until you convince me. Are there other common practices? We talked about sprint planning. Are there other kind of practices you see teams struggle with? Mike (11:28) Yeah, yeah, for a lot of people. think a huge one is product backlog refinement. I don't know what a better word would be than refinement. refinement is about making the backlog better. It's not about making it perfect. And I see teams that get stuck on backlog refinement and feel like they have to resolve every open issue, that everything has to be tiny and answered and buttoned up before we can start a sprint. And that's not the case. For me, the goal in refinement is to make sure things are small enough and sufficiently well understood. I don't want to bring in a backlog that's bigger than my velocity. If our velocity is 25, I don't want bring in a 50-point story. how about the problems of a 50-point story anyway? But I don't want to bring in some massive epic like that into a sprint. And so refinement is about making it small, making sure it's sufficiently well understood. Sufficiently well understood, not perfectly. And so Brian Milner (12:18) Yeah. Mike (12:28) The problem is these teams, and I know you've seen this, but teams who get in there, want to resolve every open issue. It's like, no, we can resolve that during the sprint. If we think about the goal and planning to make sure we know what to bring into the sprint, not too much, not too little, we're fine just enough that you're at that point. Is the button blue or red? Who cares? If it's a log in story, we're going to lock people out after some number of failed attempts. Who cares how many? Figure that out during the sprint. If it's five or three or eight, who cares? Figure that out later. So I think refinements won. Another big one would be reviews, ⁓ where sometimes teams demo too much in a sprint review. And they feel like they have to justify their existence, show everything you did during the sprint. And the most egregious example of that was this was a handful of years ago. But I literally remember a team showing Brian Milner (12:58) Yeah. Yeah. Mike (13:18) how they had updated the copyright notice on the footer of the web page, know, copyright, you know, whatever year our company, right? And it's like, my God, you didn't need to show that to stakeholders, right? We all either know there's a copyright notice on the bottom of the web page or we've seen one before. I don't need you to bring it up and scroll down to it. Now only took 15 seconds of the meeting, but that was 15 seconds of people's lives. They were never going to get back. you know, show stuff that you need feedback on, right? If you'd... Brian Milner (13:41) Right. Mike (13:45) You fixed a bug and you fixed it only way it could be fixed. Mention it perhaps, but you don't need to show it, right? Brian Milner (13:51) Yeah, yeah, know teams I've been on often it's just it's suffice it to have a list sometimes and just say here's a list of things if you want to know more about these come talk to us but we're move on to the stuff you care about. Mike (14:02) Yeah, I always have like a will show, will not show list. you know, I often, if I'm writing the meetup present, that'll put that up on Zoom or, you know, show it on a screen if we're in person. And often somebody wants to see something that's on the will not show list. Or they just want me to describe what bug was that again? What was that? You know, and I'll explain it really quickly. But if nobody wants to see it, don't bother showing it. So. Brian Milner (14:26) Yeah, I know we talk about these scrum practices quite a bit in the working on the scrum team class, but if someone signed up to take this class, what can they expect to hear or what can they expect to learn about these practices in the course? Mike (14:39) Well, I think one of the things that you and I did together in creating the newest version of the course was to look at what do you actually need to practice doing, and it's feasible to practice doing in a classroom setting, versus what should you just kind of talk through. And not everything needs to be practiced to get the hang of it, right? Everybody in the world has taken something big and split it up into smaller things before, right? I need to make. spaghetti dinner tonight. What do need to buy? Right? OK. Well, that's that's that's test decomposition by noodles, by sauce, by tomatoes. Let's make it from scratch. Right. By some garlic. Right. So everybody in the world has done decomposition. We've broken a big thing into small things. And I remember, you know, iterating over I'm still on sprint planning, I guess. But I remember iterating over exercises in sprint planning and in courses over the decades by now. And I would have one where you're planning a party for your kid, break it down into tasks. It's like, nobody learns anything from this. And so that's one where I'd rather say, OK, this problem occurs in sprint planning. How could you solve it? Other things like, let's say, splitting user stories or splitting job stories, that's a skill worth practicing together, getting feedback on. And so those type of things we try to practice in the course. other things we just talk about. mean, I'm curious on your thoughts on that. What do you think about some things being worth practicing, some things worth being better talked about? Brian Milner (16:01) Yeah, I agree. I agree fully. it's, it's, you know, there's some things, it's kind of like what you said before, there's some things that's not worth spending the time on, and it's better to just have a discussion and move on. Mike (16:13) Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's one of the things we always talked about. We always talked about return on investment of the exercise. What's the return on the exercise? And if you're going to have a one hour exercise, cool. One hour exercise. But it better have a pretty healthy return because that's a lot of time in class. And so what's the return on exercise? Is this worth a practice? Is it worth just a discussion? And if we can discuss two hard problems and give people advice on two common problems, they're probably going to face. Brian Milner (16:21) Yeah. Mike (16:41) Might be better than spending 20 minutes practicing something that they've probably done before. Brian Milner (16:45) Yeah, I completely agree. Let's move to the third pillar then, because I know this is a big one, just thinking and talking about the roles. And just as far as communication issues are concerned, even outside of Scrum, I know that's part of the big problem with teams and organizations just not being clearly defined about who does what and who's responsible for each thing. So those misunderstandings are really common failure points. ⁓ Mike (17:09) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (17:10) How do you see teams getting that wrong and how's that derailing a Scrum team? Mike (17:15) Well, think we see it all the time on Scrum teams between Scrum Master and Product Owner and even the development team, right? Who does what? I was responding to some comments on LinkedIn this morning on some post I'd made last week and somebody had some comments. And it had to do with whether the Scrum Master or Product Owner does something. And it was interesting because in the comments on that post, I... I don't remember which one it was, but I shared a certain perspective. I feel pretty strongly that I have it right. I mean, I this is how we do it. But there were other people saying the opposite, right? And so, you know, these are people that are probably fairly experienced with Scrum, if they're following me on LinkedIn and feel comfortable commenting on a post, probably feel comfortable with it. And so there's a lot of confusion about what role does what thing. And I don't think this is something where the Scrum guy is going to have the answers for you. I think it's, I mean, you can look at the Scrum guy, oh, this. Here's my starting point answer, but we always want to play to people's strengths, right? And if you've got a scrum master who's got a lot of skill in one area, maybe they shift a little work from the PO to themselves, right? With the PO's permission, right? And the opposite, right? Between maybe PO and team. So it's fine to have default starting positions on who does what, but you always want to play to people's strengths. So I think PO scrum master, I think we see it with project managers and scrum masters, roll confusion on those type of roles as well. Brian Milner (18:38) Yeah, completely agree. A lot of those roles that are not named Scrum team roles and how they interact with the team, that's often a source of confusion as well. What are maybe some signs or symptoms that teams might be having confusion or problems in this area that maybe they don't even recognize or realize they're having an issue with roles? Mike (18:59) Any sort of conflicts, right? You know, you and I arguing over which one of us should do something. The other one would be kind of the opposite, which would be like a dropped ball. I was watching some YouTube video. I love baseball. I was watching some YouTube video the other day of like missed catches or something like that. And some team hit a baseball way up in the air and it was landing near three players, right? Three players are all looking at it. Brian Milner (19:12) You Mike (19:23) One guy waves the other two off, he's going to catch the ball and he must have been blinded by the sun because he's like six feet from the ball when it lands on the ground, right? And, you know, if we have a responsibility to catch the ball, run this meeting, right, right the backlog, the kids dropped, right? And so I think either arguing over who does something, two of us trying to do the same thing or neither of us doing it. I don't mean trying to get out of the work, right? All three players have been happy to catch the ball, but I think you've got it. You think I've got it, right? Those type of things are pretty good signs. think getting clarity around these roles can really optimize how a team works. And I think a really key thing here is that it changes over time. So I'll go back to my example of maybe the Scrubmaster has some skills that can help the product owner early on. Because maybe the product owner is new to the company. The product owner doesn't know the product as well. So they might rely on the Scrubmaster for guidance on things. Well, a year from now, we might shift responsibilities a little bit because now the PO is the expert on all things related to the product. So it's not like we want to establish clarity on roles one time and leave it forever. It's going to change. We get a new tester on the team, things might change. Product owner moves. It's going to change again. So we need to realize these responsibilities are dynamic. Brian Milner (20:39) Yeah, that's a great point. Your point about baseball just made me think about how, when you watch any youth sport in the world, when you go watch your kids play a sport, what's the one thing you always hear people scream from the sideline? Talk to each other. Call the ball. Well, that too. That too. Ump your blind. Those kinds of things. Well, let's talk a little bit about Mike (20:52) I thought you were going say, put my kid in. Brian Milner (21:00) I know this course addresses the roles and how would you say this course really helps address that issue of role confusion? Mike (21:07) think a big part of it is that we designed it to be for everybody on the team, right? Suppose you send a scrum master to a class, and it's a great class. Scrum master is going to back to the certain set of impressions about their role. Product owner goes to an equally good class about the product. They might have different impressions. Even if they took the course from the same instructor, they're hearing it a little differently. They're hearing it through their filters, right? And so when they're in a course together, there's more opportunities to clarify their understanding about those things, especially in the classes designed as we did with this one to bring out some of those differences. So I think the course helps with that. we've also designed it to mention the rules we haven't talked about, like managers and things like that. Brian Milner (21:53) Yeah, yeah, I think those are so important. And there's a lot of great discussions that come out when we have those topics. ⁓ Let's talk about the fourth pillar then, teamwork, because this, I think, builds really well on what we just talked about. And the idea that there's actually, Scrum is a team sport. ⁓ So beyond just normal human personality conflict type issues, what do you see that gets in the way of teams actually Mike (21:58) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (22:18) working as a team. Mike (22:19) think ego is probably one, right? I can do everything better, just leave me alone. There's an old book that says basically, beware of a lone developer in a room, right? You know, it was referring to the developer who wants to close their door and say, I'll it done in a month, trust me, right? And one of the companies I worked with, and this one's going back like 15 years ago, but it was a really good story. Brian Milner (22:36) Yeah. Mike (22:43) is they would literally grab one unit of work. Each person on the team would grab a unit of work and take anywhere from three to 12 months to do the thing. So they were big things, but the person would do everything on it. They'd coded, tested everything. And the organization was putting out very little because of this. When they moved to Scrum in the first year, by their estimate, they said they delivered 540 % more work. over five times the amount of new features delivered. And that was through the collaboration, through the short iterations, those type of things. But it was about getting people to collaborate more. So I think there's huge opportunities to do that. One of the problems I see is when we don't overlap work. If we think about that organization I just described, you grab your thing, you're done in six months. I grab mine, I'm done in seven months. If we'd work together on those things, what's not make us any faster? No faster. But you and I could have worked on your one thing and been done in three months. OK, we're delivering value in three months, right? And so one of the things I look for a lot is how much teams are overlapping work, right? And if we're not overlapping work, there's huge opportunities to improve at that. I'll a little example of this. One of my favorite restaurants is, I don't know, barely call it a restaurant. It's a fast food deli. It's called Jimmy John's. Have you been to Jimmy John's, Yeah. Yeah, there's one near my house where I can go there and the wine will be out the door. Right. And you know, normally you see a wine out the door and it's like, crap, I'm going somewhere else. Right. These guys are so fast. They're so fast. When I get to the front, I place my order. I play this little game of can I fill up my cup? You know, I get an iced tea and they give me an empty cup and can I go fill up ice and put the tea in before they hand me my sandwich? And it's about 50-50. Right. It doesn't take long to fill up your iced tea. But the way they do that is the overlap work. As soon as I order my Italian club sandwich, somebody's already got the bread open, somebody's got a slab of meat they're ready to drop on there, somebody else has their hands over the vegetables and they're dropping the vegetables on there, and then a fourth person wraps it up. And so like four or five people touch my sandwich. Hopefully their hands are clean, but four or five people touch my sandwich as opposed to like most delis where I go and it's like you watch one person plod along making the sandwich, right? Overlap work is huge. Brian Milner (25:07) Yeah. Yeah, this episode sponsored by, no, just kidding. Use code Mike Cohn when you go to, no, just kidding. Yeah, I agree. And yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with Jimmy John's. Probably too familiar. ⁓ Yes, yeah, no, that's, I think that's part of their shtick is that they're, you know, they're known for being fast. So yeah. Mike (25:10) You Is yours just as fast? Yeah. Yeah. They call it Freaky Fast. They actually have a competition. I've seen YouTube videos of this where they get like the best teams at various restaurants race, right? And so they have like the Jimmy John sandwich making Olympics or something, but it's a skill. Brian Milner (25:36) wow, wow, yeah. You should pair that up with the hot dog eating challenge in some way and see if we could have a team sport going there. ⁓ Mike (25:48) Well, that's a good point because think about the hot dog eating. That's one guy, right? That's Joey Chesnett shoving hot dogs down. The Jimmy Johns is a team. They get the best crew at a restaurant and it's a team, right? How fast can the team go? Not how fast can one guy make a sandwich, right? Brian Milner (25:51) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's awesome. So what are some tips? What are some ways that you can really unite a team, especially those new teams? Because that's the fascination point for me is, how do you take this group of humans that really don't know each other and haven't worked together in the past and unite them together and have them gel as a team? How do you do that? Mike (26:21) I'll give you a couple. One, I think having really crisp sprint goals helps. So we all know exactly what we're trying to get done in the sprint. We don't lose sight of that because sometimes in the middle of a sprint, you lose sight of it. And you get myopic and you just focus on a list of tasks. And I'm going to say that it's probably similar to the team doing sprint planning and just getting them assessed with the numbers. It's not about the numbers. It's not about the tasks. It's about the backlog items that lead to some goal. So crisp sprint goals help. That's a hard phrase. Crisp Sprinkles helps. The other one I'd say is having a shared vision about where you're headed over a little bit longer term. Probably the biggest change to the Scrum Guide ever that I've liked is the inclusion of a product goal. And that was something I'd been talking about forever. mean, literally since I started doing Scrum was that sprinkles are great, but they're pretty short, right? You want to have something bigger. Brian Milner (26:52) It is. Mike (27:14) And so I like having product goals that are a few months out there. And one of the things I like doing for product goals is have teams do something like write a press release that describes their goal or create a vision in some way, write a review that you want to see come out on the App Store, Play Store, and a magazine. And one of my clients made software and they were reviewed by a major magazine and they were given an editor's choice runner up award. And they actually estimated that being runners up for that was probably worth about $10 million. First place, first time was worth about $10 million a year to them. And so they decided to get serious about this and they wrote a review. Their scrum master, she was actually combo scrum master product owner, Erin. She had the team write a review and she said, let's go earn this review. And I literally remember the email I got from her three months later. It was because it was Halloween night. I just like, you know, brought in the candy from outdoors. We're done trick or treating. And I checked my email. I a three word email from her from Erin. said we did it. And the magazine had let her know, hey, we're reviewing you. be out on, you know, like Tuesday's edition. And the review had quotes in there that were from their vision review, right? The things that they had wanted to achieve. Brian Milner (28:22) Ha ha. Mike (28:35) And that team had just really jelled around that and just became so much more productive and collaborated so much better because of that shared vision. Brian Milner (28:43) Yeah, that's amazing. getting back to the course then, I know in the course we're trying to kind of some of those collaboration muscles. What are some of the ways that the course helps to build that? Mike (28:56) think one of the key things that we're doing, and I'm excited about this, is that we're, you know, we of course use Zoom breakout rooms, right? You you go talk about this, we'll see you in eight minutes or something like that. And for this course, we're doing something where a group of three or more, when they register, can have a private breakout room. And this to me is exciting because people get the benefit of having a private breakout room. They can have sensitive discussions if they want. They can talk very specifically about. you know, what do we do about our jerk product owner? mean, whatever it is, right? You know, they can talk about their specific issues, yet have the context of a broader class. Because I think in one of the benefits of any public class is hearing how other teams are doing things. And sometimes that's because you get a good advice, you know, how did you solve that problem? We have that problem. Other times, it's just feeling that you're not alone in the world. they've got that problem too, right? And they don't have any solution for me, but I know I'm not alone in the world with this. And so I like these private breakout rooms for three or more. I think it's a novel thing we're doing with this class. And it's with the intent of combining the best of both worlds of private and public training for this. I'd the other thing is probably consistency, having everybody on the team hear the same message, having those discussions with an experienced instructor like you or me in the room to provide guidance when they have questions. know, go back to the role clarity, right? You know, they can talk about it and they're there. Then they're back in the main room with you or me and we can kind of answer questions. So I think that consistency will be huge as well. Brian Milner (30:25) Yeah, yeah, I love that idea of the private private breakout rooms that that's that's gonna be huge for a lot of people I know. ⁓ Mike (30:31) I'm excited to try it with this. This will be the first classes we do that for. I'm excited about it. Brian Milner (30:36) Yeah, yeah. Well, let's bring it home then and talk about the fifth pillar because the fifth pillar is really interesting as well. It talks about support beyond the team and teams can only do so much. Every team struggles when they're not supported well. And there's lots of studies that show leadership support is one of the biggest hurdles or obstacles to the adoption. Mike (30:46) Mm-hmm. Brian Milner (30:59) What does that support look like from outside the team and how can a team influence that? Mike (31:06) Yeah, if you're trying to be agile and your HR group has quarterly reviews of personnel that are all based on individual performance and has nothing to do about teamwork in there, it's going to be hard to focus on collaboration. So we have to kind of fix these issues. I think what we have to do here is to have team members educate those outside the organization. And we have information that we share about, you here's how to talk to a boss that's maybe mandating deadlines, things like that. And so we try to coach people through having some of those challenging conversations. And one of things I want teams to do is kind of become an example of what good agile looks like. And if you have a team that's excelling with agile and they're doing it from a kind of principles first, that mindset first approach. You're going to see other groups look at that and let's say the marketing group. They're going to look at that go, hey, that's an interesting way to work. I wonder how we could do that, right? And it's going look different for a marketing group than a tech team. the mindset is going to be the same. Principles will still be the same. And so when we get teams to do really well with this, other parts of the organization start to get interested. And then they stop being as much in our way. Brian Milner (32:20) Yeah. I know one of the most important aspects here and that we talk about is, is that you don't need to, to wait, right? If you're the team level, you don't have to just sit around and wait for the organization to make changes. you, you have opportunities to make changes as well. So how does that happen? How's the team change, you know, bring about those changes that, improve the agile process, the results. Mike (32:42) I think that's by being the example so that people see it. I think it's by having those conversations. You know, one of the things that we'll get is, you know, it's so common is the product owner that wants to change their mind all the time. I was reading something, I guess this is in our Agile mentors community, I think is where it was, but it was about the, you know, the product owner who said his favorite thing about Agile is that he can reprioritize every week. ⁓ And it's like, you can, you know. Brian Milner (33:05) Hmm. Yeah Mike (33:10) I'm not sure it's good. And I think about that, a team gets momentum, right? And you're working on a certain feature. Next sprint, it would be nice to work in that same area of this system, right? Your head's there. Just kind of keep going a little bit. And I've often described this as like, let's say you're working on three backlog items that are in a certain area of this system. Let's make it concrete. Let's say it's the spell checker in Microsoft Office, right? And you do three backlog items related to the spell checker this sprint. Next sprint, maybe your top priority is not more spell checker stuff, but maybe items, I don't know, 25, 26, and 27 on the backlog are still in the spell checker. You know what? It might be better to do those. There are probably two or three sprints away. Let's bring them into this sprint. Just get them done while my head's into spell checking. And so getting product owners or stakeholders to stop doing that, one of the ways that I like to talk about doing that is using an example of ordering a meal at a restaurant. I can order, let's say, the chicken entree. And then as the waiter is taking the orders around the table, I change from chicken, no, bring me the fish. Not a big deal. The waiter is going to cross off chicken and write down fish. If the waiter goes away, brings me back my salad, and I change my mind then, I say, hey, bring me the fish. Might not be a big deal. It's going to be a big deal if I've already taken three bites of the chicken. right? Or if he brings me the chicken. So yeah, we can change our mind, but there's a cost, right? And we want to educate stakeholders about that cost. They don't overdo it. Brian Milner (34:31) Yeah. Yeah. Well, speaking of the leaders and the organization, managers, leaders, do you think this course is appropriate for managers and leaders to attend as well? you feel like they might need to in order to really have this be an impact? Mike (34:55) Yeah, that's a good question. Is it appropriate? Yeah, I think it's appropriate. When we do this privately, we've had plenty of leaders and managers attend. I think it's great. I don't think that's required because they're not on the Scrum team. You said the name of the course is working on a Scrum team. And so they're not on the Scrum team. They benefit by knowing more how their Scrum team works. But I think what we found is that having just a key subset of people who hear the same message work through the training together, and then go back to the organization. That's enough to bring the passion, conviction, and skills that we want. So we don't truly need leaders. They're great. I would never talk a leader out of going, but I wouldn't. If I were a team and I could take the class this month or with my leader next month, I would just get the class done, right? And educate the leader afterwards. Brian Milner (35:41) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a good plan. All right, well then we've made our way through the five pillars and for people who have come this far with us and are at this point, if they're listening and they're recognizing some of these problems we've been talking about, what would you recommend to them as next steps here? Mike (35:49) if Well, take a look at our website. If you go to mountaingoatsoftware.com. And then I think there's a courses link on the top. You can go up there and find the link to this course. It's an exciting one that we're doing. I've literally been teaching this, I think the first time I taught a class called Working on a Scrum Team was 2003 or 2004. it's a time tested course. You and I kind of redesigned it a couple of months ago to make it appropriate for public. or little better just in general and more appropriate for public. But it's a time-tested course that's now designed to be available for public settings instead of, you know, have to have 25 people or something. Brian Milner (36:36) Yeah, yeah, that's really exciting. I can't wait to see kind of how people are in, you know, react and interact in the course to some of these concepts and ideas. And we'll, we'll of course link to all these things that we've talked about in our show notes and make it easy for everyone to find the course listing and, and, you know, where the dates and everything that we're going to offer them. So make sure to check that out. Mike, thanks so much for coming on. This has been really enlightening and I appreciate you making time for it. Mike (37:01) Of course, thanks for having me, Brian. Always a pleasure.

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How do you prove your value as a Scrum Master? What steps can you take as Scrum Master to coach your Product Owner? What are some ways to make Scrum Events more engaging? There is a lot to navigate within the Scrum Master Accountability. PST Bart Versteegen recently answered some burning listener questions about the Scrum Master Accountability. Tune in for great insights!

Anamaria Ungureanu: Goal Clarity—The Missing Piece in Agile Team Performance Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Anamaria shares her experience working with a platform implementation team that appeared engaged but was actually struggling in silence. Despite initial assumptions that everything was fine, the team's quiet demeanor masked their lack of understanding about project goals and deliverables.  Through strategic intervention including goal clarification with the Product Owner, confidence level assessments, and story mapping sessions, Anamaria helped transform a disengaged team into one capable of successful delivery. Her approach emphasized the importance of fostering constructive conflict, asking open questions during sprint planning about demo expectations, and facilitating better PO-team interactions to create transparency and shared understanding. In this episode, we refer to User Story Mapping and the concept of Gemba, or Gemba Walk Self-reflection Question: How might your teams be silently struggling, and what signs should you watch for to identify when apparent engagement actually masks confusion or disengagement? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Anh Vu: The Hidden Cost of Decision-Making Delays in Product Development Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Strategic Connector Anh describes an exceptional Product Owner who went far beyond managing the backlog to become a strategic connector between customer needs, business requirements, technical constraints, and overall strategy. What made this PO remarkable was their background - they came from a developer background rather than business, yet quickly mastered the Product Owner role through dedicated learning. Despite being new to the PO role, they rapidly developed the ability to connect backlog items directly to customer pain points, often using techniques like user story mapping. This PO brought both clarity and purpose to the team, significantly boosting team motivation by helping developers understand how their work directly impacted customers and business outcomes. The Bad Product Owner: The Proxy Problem The worst Product Owner situation Anh encountered involved a Proxy PO who lacked the authority to make decisions independently. This created significant challenges for both the team and the PO, as every new problem or decision required seeking permission from external stakeholders. This pattern lengthened feedback cycles and demotivated both the PO and the development team, who couldn't move forward efficiently when blocked by decisions. Anh's approach to addressing this involved coaching the PO on engaging with external stakeholders, setting up regular touchpoints (2-3 times per week) to shorten feedback cycles, and focusing on improving the decision-making process to unblock the team. He also emphasized creating a strong network of connections for the PO to navigate the organization effectively and always having a Plan B when certain decisions couldn't be made quickly. Self-reflection Question: Does your Product Owner have true decision-making authority, or are they frequently forced to seek permission from others, and how is this affecting your team's velocity and motivation? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

En este episodio de Hack Tu Vida hablamos con Vladimir Guzmán Mendoza, experto en innovación y mentor de emprendedores en Reino Unido, sobre lo que realmente significa vivir, aprender y trabajar en tiempos de inteligencia artificial. Conversamos sobre cómo la IA está transformando el mundo profesional, las oportunidades que representa para los latinos y por qué es urgente aprender a usarla sin miedo, sin importar tu edad o experiencia previa. Este episodio es una invitación a reemplazar el miedo por curiosidad, y la curiosidad por acción. TEMAS DESTACADOS: Qué es la inteligencia artificial (explicado para nuestras mamás). Por qué la IA no viene a quitarnos el trabajo, sino a liberarnos. Cómo los latinos pueden aprovechar esta tecnología para crear, aprender y crecer. El poder de los prompts: aprende a comunicarte con la IA para obtener resultados reales. Reinvención profesional: cambiar de carrera o aprender algo nuevo con IA. Automatización sin saber programar: ¡tú también puedes! El valor del coraje, la acción y el pensamiento crítico en la era digital. En esta conversación, Vladimir también comparte herramientas de inteligencia artificial que recomienda para empezar a automatizar tareas, crear contenido y resolver problemas reales sin necesidad de programar. Entre ellas están ChatGPT y Gemini para conversaciones inteligentes, Make y n8n para flujos de automatización, y Canva o Bo3 para diseño y creación de videos con IA. Además, menciona cuentas en español como @construyeconIA y @welcomemineiro, así como su propio proyecto @gingga.ai, enfocados en compartir conocimientos y aplicaciones prácticas de esta tecnología. "La inteligencia artificial no es el enemigo. Es el atajo. Y estamos justo a tiempo para aprender a usarlo." – Vladimir Guzmán Mendoza Comparte este episodio con alguien que aún cree que la IA es solo para expertos. ¿Tienes miedo de sonar tonto al usar estas herramientas? Este episodio te va a cambiar la perspectiva. Dale like si aprendiste algo nuevo y SUSCRÍBETE para seguir recibiendo conversaciones reales sobre tecnología, conciencia y crecimiento. Suscríbete a nuestro Newsletter www.hacktuvida.com

Industrial Talk is onsite at Xcelerate 2025 and talking to Austin Anderson, Product Owner, Condition Monitoring at Fluke Reliability about "Azima's Powerful AI Vibration Platform". Scott MacKenzie hosts the Industrial Talk podcast, highlighting industry innovations and trends. He introduces Austin Anderson, who discusses Azima's diagnostic system and its integration with Fluke Reliability. Anderson explains the standardization of data collection over 15 years, emphasizing the importance of accurate data for reliability. He details the integration of Azima's AI with human analysts for 85% accuracy and the development of a user-friendly interface. The conversation also covers the future of Azima, including expansion into oil analysis and thermography, and the importance of efficient data storage and management. Anderson can be contacted via LinkedIn for more information. Action Items [ ] Rebuild the Azima user interface to make it more user-friendly and easily accessible. [ ] Integrate Azima's data and insights with Fluke's other reliability solutions, such as alignment and balancing, to provide an end-to-end connected reliability offering. [ ] Enhance the Azima platform to include additional reliability data sources beyond just vibration, such as oil analysis and thermography. [ ] Develop a solution that can automatically translate Azima's problem identifications into work orders in the customer's CMMS (e.g., eMaint). Outline Introduction and Overview of Industrial Talk Podcast Scott MacKenzie introduces the Industrial Talk podcast, emphasizing its focus on industrial innovations and trends. Scott highlights the free ebook and workbook available on Industrial Talk, which expands on five elements of successful companies: educate, collaborate, innovate, invest in culture, and communicate effectively. Scott MacKenzie thanks listeners for their support and celebrates industrial professionals for their boldness, bravery, and problem-solving skills. Introduction of Austin Anderson and Azima Scott MacKenzie introduces Austin Anderson, who will discuss the product Azima. Austin Anderson shares his background, mentioning his three-year tenure with Azima and his role in developing the diagnostic system. Scott MacKenzie inquires about the accuracy of the data stored in Azima, to which Austin explains the standardized method of data collection and its relevance over the years. Austin discusses his background in vibration analysis and his previous work with the Navy, highlighting his expertise in the field. Strategic Path and User Experience of Azima Austin outlines the strategic path for Azima, focusing on making reliability engineers superstars and providing useful insights for top-level executives. Scott MacKenzie asks about the integration of Azima with Fluke Reliability, and Austin explains the goal of making the platform user-friendly and value-added. Austin describes the end-to-end connected reliability solution offered by Fluke Reliability, including hardware, software, and alignment and balancing services. Scott and Austin discuss the importance of user experience and the redesign of the user interface to make it more accessible and user-friendly. Data Accuracy and Integration with Fluke Reliability Scott MacKenzie inquires about the accuracy of the diagnostic system, and Austin explains that AI can achieve 85% accuracy, with the remaining 15% covered by human analysts. Austin discusses the integration of Azima with Fluke Reliability's x5...

Joelle Tegwen: Business Analyst to Product Owner—More Than a Title Change Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Collaborative Visionary Joelle worked with an exceptional Product Owner at a medical company who was leading their team into a new way of working. This PO understood both the vision piece of the work and the importance of experimentation, recognizing that the team was responsible for figuring out how to solve the problems they were trying to tackle. Working within a Large Scale Scrum framework, they demonstrated patience while collaborating with skilled team members to improve how they worked together. Rather than complaining to the team about performance issues, this PO collaborated directly with the Scrum Master to address challenges. Most importantly, they maintained crystal clear focus on customer value, ensuring every decision and direction connected back to what would truly benefit the end user. The Bad Product Owner: The JIRA Manager Joelle describes the problematic pattern of Business Analysts who receive a title change to Product Owner without understanding the fundamental shift in role and responsibilities. These individuals continue to see themselves as scribes rather than visionaries, treating their primary job as managing JIRA instead of setting a vision for where the product should go. They typically lack understanding of meaningful metrics and rely on gut-feel prioritization rather than data-driven decisions. Most critically, they fail to communicate about problems to solve or establish a clear North Star for the team. Joelle recommends providing these POs with structured formats for Epics and features that start with hypothesis, problem, and measures, helping them think at higher levels than just user story management. Self-reflection Question: Whether you're a Product Owner or work closely with one, how might you help elevate the conversation from task management to vision and problem-solving? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Pascal Papathemelis: The Mobile Product Owner—Why Great POs Move Around and Talk to People Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Visionary Communicator Pascal describes great Product Owners as excellent communicators who possess the courage to confront stakeholders when necessary. These exceptional POs thrive as decision makers and understand the importance of being mobile - they have "legs and walk around to meet stakeholders" rather than remaining isolated in their offices. Great Product Owners maintain a clear vision and excel at breaking down products into granular items that teams can easily pull from the backlog. They demonstrate superior backlog management skills and understand how to focus on creating systems that collect valuable feedback. Pascal emphasizes that it's critical to help Product Owners develop these capabilities so they can flourish in their role as the primary decision makers for their products. The Bad Product Owner: The Dominating Manager Pascal encountered a challenging Product Owner who exhibited several destructive anti-patterns. This PO dominated meetings by talking most of the time while the team remained silent, creating an environment where team members felt unsafe to contribute. The situation was complicated by the fact that this Product Owner also served as the line manager for the team members, blurring the boundaries between product decisions and personnel management. This dual role created a power dynamic that inhibited healthy team collaboration. The PO went so far as to stop retrospectives, even when Pascal explained how these sessions could benefit the entire team. Pascal identifies a critical anti-pattern: when a Product Owner has no channel of communication or coaching support, and they resist help, it becomes impossible to improve the situation. Self-reflection Question: What steps could you take to help Product Owners in your organization develop better communication skills and create safer environments for team collaboration? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Pascal Papathemelis: From Waterfall to Agile—A Multi-Level Change Strategy Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Pascal describes a successful agile transformation where he collaborated with a fellow coach in the IT department of a large organization with a waterfall history and heavy documentation-driven processes. The two coaches worked together effectively, sharing information and scouting for opportunities to take action. They began with an assessment and discussions across IT, business, and management levels to understand the current state. Using the Cynefin framework to understand complexity, they conducted a two-day workshop to introduce Agile vocabulary, covering concepts like Push/Pull and process waste.  The coaches operated at multiple levels simultaneously - working strategically with leadership who typically pushed excessive work to the organization, while also helping teams visualize their processes and clarify priorities. At the team level, they acted as Scrum Masters to demonstrate the role while mentoring the actual Scrum Master through one-on-one sessions. They also supported the Product Owner in understanding their role and used story maps to help visualize and organize work effectively. Self-reflection Question: How might collaborating with another coach or change agent amplify your effectiveness in leading organizational transformation? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Pascal Papathemelis: The Hidden Cost of Removing Scrum Masters from High-Performing Teams Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. Pascal shares a cautionary experience with mature Scrum teams that appeared to function flawlessly. These teams demonstrated excellent Scrum practices with minimal impediments, leading management to conclude that Scrum Masters were unnecessary. When management removed all Scrum Masters from the department, the previously high-performing teams began to struggle significantly.  Team members had to absorb the responsibilities previously handled by their Scrum Masters, causing them to lose focus on their core value-creating work. Different teams adopted various approaches to fill the Scrum Master void, but none proved effective. Pascal reflects that the Scrum Masters could have made their value more visible by supporting Product Owners more actively and becoming more involved in team tasks. This experience taught him the importance of demonstrating the ongoing value that Scrum Masters provide, even when teams appear to be self-sufficient. Featured Book of the Week: Learning Out Loud—Community Learning and Networking Pascal draws his greatest inspiration not from a single book, but from active participation in the Agile community. He finds tremendous value in discussions within local communities, networking events, and sparring sessions with colleagues. Pascal particularly benefits from Agile Coaching circles in Helsinki, which provide practical knowledge and insights. He also gains inspiration from Agile conferences, but credits Agile Coaching Camps as having the biggest impact - these 2.5-day open space format events are intense and packed with valuable insights. Pascal recommends that Scrum Masters actively engage with their local Agile communities and attend coaching camps to accelerate their professional development and gain diverse perspectives. Self-reflection Question: How visible is the value you provide as a Scrum Master, and what steps could you take to make your contributions more apparent to your organization? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Bernard Agrest: Millions of Users, Multiple Stakeholders—The Art of Product Owner Navigation Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Stakeholder Navigator Bernard describes an exceptional Product Owner who managed a product impacting millions of people while navigating constantly evolving requirements from multiple stakeholders. This Product Owner excelled at understanding each stakeholder's unique needs and communicating effectively with all of them. What made this person truly great was their ability to come to the development team with a clear understanding of both the business case and user needs, having done the hard work of stakeholder management upfront. This Product Owner understood that their role was to be the bridge between complex stakeholder requirements and clear team direction. The Bad Product Owner: The Collaborative Hoarder Bernard identifies a dangerous anti-pattern: the Product Owner who adds everything to the backlog under the guise of being "collaborative." While this behavior appears inclusive and team-friendly on the surface, it actually demonstrates that the Product Owner isn't following through on delivering real value. These Product Owners become almost exclusively focused on authority rather than outcomes, making them particularly difficult to coach since they resist guidance. Bernard recommends using Cost of Delay as both a prioritization technique and a tool to help Product Owners understand why certain items shouldn't be added to the backlog at all. Self-reflection Question: Is your Product Owner truly collaborating by providing clear direction, or are they avoiding difficult prioritization decisions by adding everything to the backlog? In this segment we refer to the Coach Your Product Owner e-course that we created for everyone who needs to help their Product Owners succeed! [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Lilia Pulova: Business Case Ownership—The Product Owner's Core Duty Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: Always Present and Inspirational Lilia describes an exceptional Product Owner whose defining characteristic was consistent presence with the team. This presence went beyond just showing up - it was inspirational and made team members genuinely care about their delivery and the product they were building. The Product Owner served as the vital connection between the team and the organization's wider mission, helping everyone understand how their work contributed to the bigger picture. This constant engagement and visibility created a motivated team that took pride in their product development efforts. The Bad Product Owner: Unprepared and Responsibility-Shifting Lilia encountered a Product Owner who exemplified poor practices by consistently arriving at backlog refinement meetings without any preparation, expecting developers to provide business context instead. This approach was fundamentally wrong because developers aren't equipped to discuss business expectations or product direction - that's the Product Owner's responsibility. This individual habitually said "yes" to all tickets without consideration, shifted decision-making responsibility to the team, and relied on architects to manage the product and determine sprint priorities. Product Owners must own the business case rather than delegate it, and keep the business rationale constantly visible to the team. Self-reflection Question: How do you ensure your Product Owner maintains proper preparation and ownership of business decisions rather than shifting these responsibilities to the development team? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Agile in Construction: Why Construction Teams Need Product Owner Thinking with Luca Cotta Ramusino Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Customer Value Detective Luca discovered that applying the Product Owner role in construction requires thinking like a customer and understanding that "it's the customer that defines what value is." The great Product Owner in construction acts as a customer value detective, constantly asking "which task out of these is going to move the yardstick?" They ensure that work always serves a customer—if you can't identify your customer, you should stop and find one. This mindset transforms how construction teams approach their daily huddles and project planning, viewing everything through the lens of customer value rather than just task completion. The Bad Product Owner: The Waste Accumulator The bad Product Owner in construction fails to eliminate waste from processes, allowing non-value-adding activities to persist simply because "that's how we've always done it." They struggle to have candid conversations with customers and fail to tease out real requirements. Instead of transforming language into customer reality, they ask customers directly "what they want" without understanding that customers are better at identifying what they don't want than articulating what they need. This approach leads to projects that complete tasks without delivering real value. In this segment, refer to The Last Planner Method. Self-reflection Question: Can you clearly identify the customer for every piece of work your team performs, and how do you ensure that work truly moves the project toward completion? [The Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]

Stuart Tipples: The Ghost Product Owner vs. The Storytelling Master Read the full Show Notes and search through the world's largest audio library on Agile and Scrum directly on the Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast website: http://bit.ly/SMTP_ShowNotes. The Great Product Owner: The Storytelling Master Stuart describes an exceptional Product Owner who worked with an API team on what could have been a dry, unsexy product. This PO excelled by maintaining clear availability through established office hours, showing up consistently for the team, and avoiding micromanagement. The standout quality was their ability to tell compelling stories that created clarity and got the team onboard with the vision. Through storytelling, this PO helped the team communicate the value of their work, transforming a potentially mundane product into something meaningful and engaging for both the team and stakeholders. The Bad Product Owner: The Ghost with the Most Stuart encountered a problematic Product Owner working with a customer-portal team dealing with edge cases, legacy systems, and messy code. This PO earned the nickname "The Ghost with the Most" because they were never available when needed. They would miss sprint planning sessions, delay or skip backlog refinement entirely, and leave team members to fill the gap while juggling their own responsibilities. Stuart learned to address this directly by outlining how the PO's behavior affected the team and delivery, asking "Can I help you?" The PO initially reacted defensively but eventually admitted they weren't happy in the role. Self-reflection Question: How effectively does your Product Owner use storytelling to create clarity and help the team understand the value of their work? [Scrum Master Toolbox Podcast Recommends]